With season seven a mere six days away (!!!), the magnificent cast of Game of Thrones are doing press left and right, yet what we bring you today is still a rather special treat: an HBO Brasil interview with no fewer than eleven main cast members: Carice van Houten, Liam Cunningham, Sophie Turner, Gemma Whelan, Pilou Asbæk, Aidan Gillen, Isaac Hempstead-Wright, Jacob Anderson, Daniel Portman, John Bradley, and Rory McCann.
The actors began with what we can expect of their characters’ journeys this season:
“The dynamics of [the Sansa-Petyr] relationship are definitely played out a lot this year,” Sophie Turner begins. “On the one hand he’s so knowledgable, he gives her so much advice. There’s a lot of her struggling with whether she trusts him or not this year.”
“This season is about her finally having that influence over the people of Winterfell, and having that power, and ‘semi-ruling’ alongside Jon. That kind of sibling rivalry is only magnified this year because of the status she’s been given and he’s been given.”
“At the start of season seven Bran’s got a lot to think about,” Isaac H. Wright explains. “He has so much valuable information — he knows who Jon’s parents are, he knows about the creation of the White Walkers, and perhaps how to defeat them. Bran needs to get it together, focus and accept he’s kind of a new person, this three-eyed raven.”
“Sandor’s still a grumpy bastard,” says Rory McCann, in turn, with a gruffness characteristic of the Hound. “But he might do some good at the end, you never know.” Jacob Anderson, meanwhile, is more of a romantic in regards to his character: “I just want Grey Worm and Missandei to be happy. Just be like on the ocean, on their own.” Nevertheless, romantic or not, he isn’t an optimist: “But that’s not going to happen, is it?”
“You would always say your character is a contender for the throne, you know?,” daydreams Pilou Asbæk regarding Euron. “And I’m not gonna lie: I wanna be the king!”
Then, the cast goes into full “teasing season seven” mode, praising the scope of this new season and the fact that so many characters are converging for the endgame:
“I think people got so much last year that you can’t just pull back from there. That’s one of the reasons it’s only seven episodes, actually, because to deliver spectacle in that scale in the amount of time you have to shoot, it’s really difficult,” explains Gillen. “The different strands are starting to enmesh. Some characters that we’ve been waiting to meet each other I think will meet each other.” John Bradley agrees: “Every other day, something massive was going down, and you feel it’s all coming to a head now.”
Finally, Liam Cunningham narrows all of this down to its key elements in a way only Davos could manage: “This is more cinematic this year. There’s a lot of difference this time because we’ve been following stories going to this part and down to Daenerys and over to Cersei and back up to… — so what’s happening now is with this threat from the North is that there’s no one army that’s going to be able to take care of this.”
You tell them, Davos! I’m sure the likes of Cersei will listen to you with an open mind!
“The dynamics of [the Sansa-Petyr] relationship are definitely played out a lot this year,”
Played out in the off-season too. I’m tired of hearing about the Sansa-Littlefinger dynamic. Let’s just see it already!
Can’t wait for the season to start
Oh, and hoderp…
So close now.
Hype level : over 9000.
Fewer.
Because she has so many reasons to trust him.
Sean C.,
Lol, yea I was kinda thinking the same thing too, but I’m so tired of the Sansa arguments that I just didn’t want to get into it. She’s still struggling to trust him even after outright telling Jon “only a fool would trust Littlefinger”. Ugh. Nevermind. Not getting into it!
It feels like it’s been ages since we last heard from Liam. About time.
Excited for Samwell Potter to start his classes and learn all about potions and defense against the dark arts. <3 I wonder if he bought an owl or a cat.
Mr Derp,
I just think Turner’s not that good at explaining this stuff. As your quote demonstrates, the writers do know Sansa shouldn’t and doesn’t trust Littlefinger.
Flayed Potatoes,
I think he’s more of a raven kind of guy. I wonder if that’s allowed? I mean, there IS a house called Ravenclaw right?
Oh, and don’t forget…it’s LeviOsa, not LevioSA
Mr Derp: He has to pick between owls, cats and I think rats as companion animals. I think he’d favor an owl and Gilly would get a cat. He’s definitely joining Ravenclaw, but there’s also a bit of Gryffindor in him. Gilly is totally a Hufflepuff.
I think choosing a rat would be automatic bad guy material in Harry Potter Land. I can’t imagine too many people would choose that one. But then again, there’s always one. I think the rat would be the contrarian pick by the guy who chooses something else just to be different.
Flayed Potatoes,
Mr Derp,
I’m not deep in the Harry Potter fandom. And by that I mean not at all 🙂 but it is my conviction that different types of witches/ wizards comprise a house. That is to say, not all of Gryffindor is filled with Gryffindor people, but the right percentage of different sorts create a house i.e. you need x many Ravenclaw, Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, Slytherine to equal Gyffindor the ensemble.
Am I making sense? Totally doesn’t matter?
Anyway, YEYYYY 6 more days! 🙂
Luka Nieto,
She says she doesn’t trust Littlefinger, but then listens to him anyway.
I think Sam would pick a mouse! In the books, he is very friendly with the mice in the library.
ramses,
No no. The sorting hat chooses you based on your traits and where you can succeed more or something. I’m sure when Hogwarts sends out acceptance letters they make sure they have a varied group of people anyway, so there won’t be cases where a house only gets like 3 people and the others get a ton in comparison. Also, a lot of the children who are chosen come from wizard families, so they will likely be sorted into the same houses their parents were because they inherited certain personality traits. Of course there will always be one or two exceptions, but it’s not common (Sirius Black was one famous exception). I think everyone in Ron’s family was in Gryffindor. By comparison, Draco comes from a long line of Slytherin members.
Sean C.,
I completely understand not trusting Littlefinger but not listening to him seems somewhat myopic to me, I have to admit.
Baelish only rarely lies and his observations are, more often than not, on point. The crucial thing one has to keep in mind when Littlefinger talks is that he is always seeking to advance his own interests and he may not be telling the whole truth. That is where the lack of trust kicks in.
But aside from that, where is the harm in listening to him ? When he says Jon is Sansa’s “half-brother”, it is the truth (actually it is not, but you see what I mean ^^). When he says Jon is a bastard born in the south which, technically, means he is not allowed to inherit, it is the truth as far as everyone knows it too. At this point, he is not even planting the seeds of ideas in anybody’s mind, he is simply stating facts.
When being exposed to facts is considered dangerous, things may be getting weird. 🙂
ACME,
No it’s not the facts, but it’s the intent behind those facts. It’s one thing to state plainly, with no ulterior motive that Jon is Sansa’s half-brother. But it’s quite different to say that same thing with the intent of playing her against him, which is what Baelish is doing and which is why Sansa would be dumb to listen to him more than she already did. She knows Jon is a trustworthy guy, so really listening to Littlefinger is pointless. He no longer has anything of value to say and after marrying her to the Boltons, she really should know better than to give him attention.
Now I want to sort GoT characters into Hogwarts houses. Jon, Arya and Bran would 100% be in Gryffindor. Brienne will also go to Gryffindor. Show Tyrion would be in Ravenclaw, but book Tyrion is a Slytherin.
Flayed Potatoes,
Varys?
Flayed Potatoes,
But who’s to say that after all she’s been through she’s doesn’t have trust issues?
She might think that even if Jon is trusthworthy, he’ll eventually be corrupted by power and want to get rid of her, or something like that.
(Not a particularly bright mindset, but it’s understandable imo.)
Vincent Stark,
So, maybe the sword cuts both ways with LF’s statements?
Half brother. He’s not really your brother, YOU are not really the KiTN’s sister.
This adds another layer, to LF’s attempt at manipulation, that I’ve not though of before. Thanks!
Flayed Potatoes,
His intent is plain as day; he is not even trying to hide it.
And it has nothing to do with trust, I feel.
No one, not even Baelish, is saying that Jon is not a trustworthy guy, I think. He very obviously is. But, and I am sorry to ask, what does Jon being an upstanding man have to do with anything ?
Littlefinger is merely telling Sansa, pretty frontally too, that Jon is not a Stark (which fuels the idea that he knows more about Lyana’s story than he lets on). Considering how gung-ho the Northern lords were about electing a new Stark as King in the North, it is not irrelevant.
As for not paying him any attention after the Bolton disaster, I can definitely see your point. Yet, Ned was somewhat fine with the idea of marrying her to a sociopath as long as said sociopath was his BFF’s son and Sansa still quotes her father as if his word were gospel so, apparently, it is a recurring feature 😉
ramses,
Book Varys is totally a Slytherin imo. The show one might be able to go to Ravenclaw.
Vincent Stark,
Not a bright mindset at all, considering the amount of time she’s probably had to be reacquainted with him, knows he genuinely wants to protect and look after her, knows he’s aware of his bastard status and how it makes him feel like it’s wrong to aspire to certain power positions, and most importantly knows his priority is to save the world (including her) from ice zombies. One of the main arguments fans who believe Sansa is player is that she’s been thought how to read people and notice things about them, so if that really is the case she should be able to know Jon is to be trusted by now. After all, she trusted him enough to seek refuge at the Wall in the first place, and then flat out said she trusted him.
When you’re trying to scheme against this type of character (the type who wants to basically save the whole of Planetos), you’re going to come off looking bad and narrow-minded no matter what. Not to mention he’d just died and after his resurrection still agreed after all to help her. You’d have to be willfully ignorant not to put your trust in him at this point, and yes I did take off my Jon Snow stan goggles to write that statement haha.
” Sandor’s still a grumpy bastard,” says Rory McCann, in turn, with a gruffness characteristic of the Hound. “But he might do some good at the end, you never know.”
———–
Now we’re talking. I can start checking off boxes on my Hound Wish List:
Sandor:
• Is still a grumpy bastard✔️
• Might do some good at the end✔️
• Will reconnect w/ Arya ❓
• Is the Warrior of Light ❓
• Tells Night King to f*ck off ❓
• Conquers fear of fire ❓
• Learns flaming sword trick ❓
• Saves Arya ❓
• Reunites with Little Bird❓
• Roasts Mockingbird❓
• Finds Land of Always Chicken ❓
• Acquires VS sword❓
• Will have 1+ happy memory ✔️
ACME,
Didn’t Robert and Ned agreed to the engagement before Ned knew what Joffrey was? Can’t blame Ned on this one… and it’s not like he can refuse the king. 😉 Refuse a match with a random lord? Sure. A king? Not as easy. Even if he is your friend. Not too easy to get out of an engagement with the prince. Even Joffrey had to require permission from the High Septon to set Sansa aside for Marg.
And note that Ned told Sansa (when he wanted to leave KL with her and Arya in season 1) he would find her a worthy man for her to marry, so at that point he was totally not going to let his daughter marry a psycho.
So really comparing Ned to Littlefinger is moot. 🙂
ACME,
Yeah I agree, obviously Littlefinger can’t be trusted but she also knows how smart he is and how well his plans go, so it’s natural for her to want to learn from him to play the game better. As much as we don’t like it, Sansa does see him as a mentor and wants to learn to play the game like him.
Well, Ned did not seem that reluctant to tell King Bobby where to shove it when the matter of Daenerys’s assassination plot came up… And by then, the Stark patriarch had a fairly good idea of what sort of piece of “shift” Joffrey was so he could have killed two birds with one stone there. But he did not. 😉
Saving Jon’s aunt from death ? Totally worthy of fighting with the king.
Keeping his daughter safe from said king’s psycho son ? Too much work.
Where did I put Ned’s “dad of the year” mug again ? I keep on misplacing it 😛
Flayed Potatoes,
Dany is a Gryffindor.Cersei is a Slytherin,Jaime might be Hufflepuff but not sure.Davos is Hufflepuff too.
ACME,
Yeah. There is no reason for Sansa not to use LF’s knowledge and experience. She hates him and admires him at the same time. That’s why their relationship is so interesting.
ACME,
The situations are completely different and you know it.He didn’t know what Joffrey was back then.Nobody knew how bad Joffrey really was until Robert died.After the fall out about Dany he was planning on breaking the engagement anyway.
Flayed Potatoes,
Tbh I agree with you on all these points.
I personally don’t think Sansa is planning to betray Jon. I think she’s keeping LF around because she knows she can still learn a lot from him, even if he’s untrustworthy.
Since he knows people, he could give her more lessons on how to manipulate and be a great leader (which she isn’t right now, imo).
ACME,
Re: “Yet, Ned was somewhat fine with the idea of marrying her to a sociopath as long as said sociopath was his BFF’s son…”
_________
Not to go off on a Ned-bashing tangent, but I still remember when Ned didn’t have an answer to Arya (in S1e3?)…
Ned: “Sansa will be married to Joffrey someday. She must take his side, even when he is wrong.”
Arya: “But..how can you let her marry someone like that?”
(Ned, flummoxed, changes the subject)
Mel,
“Play the game”? What game? What game is she learning?
LF is a serial killer and a traitor, whose self-professed objective is to “f*ck the Starks.”
mau,
I concur wholeheartedly.
Mel,
I agree completely. For all his many, many, many faults, Baelish is good at what he does. Unlike the aristocracy he pathologically loathes, he has had to work and scheme for pretty much everything he has. If there is one person who can teach others a few valuable lessons on ambition, drive and purpose, it is him.
I sincerely doubt Littlefinger is trying to make Jon look untrustworthy in Sansa’s eyes. That is way too tall an order and far too counterintuitive to work out. My guess is that he is simply attempting to (re)awaken her desire to have some independent power which, in and of itself, is perfectly fine by me. In Westeros, the powerless do not fare well. And relying on someone else’s power is risky because there is always a possibility they might falter.
That was the point of Jon and Sansa’s finale exchange under the tent, I believe. Jon promised he would protect his sister no matter what and I have no doubt he sincerely and profoundly meant every single word. Yet, hadn’t the Vale arrived when they did, how could Jon have kept that promise ? The poor man was stuck and almost suffocated in the middle of a mêlée, he couldn’t possibly protect anyone. No one can protect anyone (all the time). That is why independent power is always useful.
Jenny,
I think Jaime would want to be a Slytherin to be close to Cersei, but the hat sorts him in Gryffindor and he’s miserable and acts unworthy of the house he was placed in. However, later on he redeems himself and proves to be a true Gryffindoor 😀
ACME,
Ned did tell Robert where to shove it and even quit as Hand of the King. No offense, but sometimes I feel like you’re watching a completely different show and you’re ignoring the facts.
And he tried to protect his daughters, but his aversion to killing children (see Robert’s Rebellion) is what did him in, and it’s established that murdering innocent children is seen as absolutely vile in both books and show. He might have made a mistake in telling Cersei, but it was a mistake that was in character, and sorry to tell you but Ned was actually one of the few decent men/fathers in the series and that is a fact. The show also cut the fact that Sansa also rats out Ned to Cersei, but whatever.
The circumstances of said marriage arrangements were totally different, and Sansa wanted to marry Joffrey for most of season 1 and believed in him up to the moment he ordered Ned’s execution. She didn’t want to leave KL when Ned told her to pack because she wanted to marry Joffrey and give him babies with blonde hair. The whole scene is in the show.
Meanwhile, Littlefinger knowingly arranged a marriage for her in secret with a family she knew from the get go was horrible and had killed her brother and mother (oh and only told her after he’d driven her in his carriage almost in the middle of nowhere so she’d have no place to go to).
Lol Sorry, but Ned is totally winning that dad of the year mug, especially over a creep who is essentially grooming a teenager. I really can’t believe there’s a debate on whether Ned is a better person than Littlefinger.
“Saving Jon’s aunt from death ?” – Lyanna died from childbirth, which is out of Ned’s control. Are you seriously implying Ned should have left his sister (and by extension her child) to die and tell Robert? LMFAO
Kits on Kimmel tonight! Hope we get new footage.
Vincent Stark,
Honestly, I don’t think she has anything left to learn from him, but I know the show needs to keep him around so she can get screentime. Really, Baelish has nothing to offer her anymore. The Vale is allied with Jon and Littlefinger doesn’t control that army. They’re controlled by Robin and led by Royce. So unless he teleports Sweetrobin to Winterfell next season and uses him, LF is useless.
Flayed Potatoes,
I think they meant Dany.i don’t know why they put it that way though.it’s not like Ned tried to save Dany because she was Jon’s aunt lol.
Flayed Potatoes,
Someone has to tell her what he has done to its full extent. There is no way that anyone can figure it out on its own.
Flayed Potatoes,
I think your bias against Sansa is speaking from you. There is always something to learn from LF. Almost everything he says is great political advise.
Jenny,
Ned tried to save Dany because she was an innocent child. In the books she’s like 13 when that happens. I never got the impression he wanted to save her just because she was related to Jon tbh.
Also, Jon’s family tree is wild lmao.
mau,
I don’t think it’s my bias against Sansa as much as it’s my bias against Littlefinger, if I had to choose one. I simply think he’s outlived his usefulness.
Flayed Potatoes,
Come on, treat yourself ! ^^
Excellent memory ! And, yes, the subtle brutality of that exchange is quite a masterpiece.
Let us be precise here : Littlefinger wants to f*ck the entire aristocracy, not just the Starks. It is the whole system he wants to f*ck into oblivion. I think it is important to point that out 😛
Is he a traitor ? Hell yes !
As for “serial killer”, what is the cutting point ? Three victims ? Four ? Regardless, he pretty much qualifies so yes. But then again, so do many others ^^
I may be completely mistaken but I think I do recall the facts.
Ned arranged his daughter marriage on his own, withouth ever getting to know his future son-in-law or consulting either Sansa or his wife.
Ned realised that Joffrey was a vicious piece of dung while on the road to King’s Landing and that was not enough for him to call off the engagement between his daughter and the aforementioned vicious piece of dung.
Ned’s aversion to killing children did not translate into a reluctance to condemning them to death. He was well aware that telling Robert of “his” children’s true lineage would make King Bobby homicidal and determined (he said so himself). So while Ned did not want to kill the children himself, he felt honour-bound to put them in mortal danger because apparently, keeping the Baratheon line of succession pure was paramount for some reason.
Sansa’s stupid desire to marry Joffrey was obviously not enough of a factor to convince Ned to keep his mouth shut about the psychotic child’s real parentage. Thus, the idea that Sansa’s wishes ever carried any weight for Ned seems unlikely.
Ned never explained to his daughters why it was so very important for them to leave King’s Landing. Amittedly, not explaining stuff to their entourage is a Stark family trait but, usually, it is a good idea to tell people why they should be doing something If they understand the purpose, they might follow the plan more efficiently.
Sansa did rat out Ned.
Ned forgot he had daughters who depended on him and had to be reminded of that small detail by Varys.
The Boltons were a horrible family, unquestionably so, and Roose did participate in the assassinations of Robb and Catelyn (and Talisa, let us not forget the poor woman !). On a sidenote, Robert Baratheon smirked when looking at the massacred corpses of two children and their mother and he would have murdered his best friend’s nephew had he known of the young man’s real lineage. As far as horrible goes, King Bobby was not far behind the Flayed Men… 😉
Huh ? When did I say that ? Jon’s aunt is Danerys; I was referring to the assassination Robert planned to carry out on her.
Ten Bears,
The political game to gain power, As much as you might not like it Littlefinger went from a orphan to Lord Of The Vale without having the right name, Sansa a woman who knows women don’t have the same power as men looks to Littlefinger to make her own situation better.
Sansa also has no bloody idea what Littlefinger did to her family, from her point of view Littlefinger cared about her because of her mother, he told her he grew up with her and they were friends then he said he wanted to resue her from Kings Landing and killed Joffrey to sneak her out of there, then when her own aunt tried to kill her Littlefinger kills Lysa to protect Sansa, right now Littlefinger is a hero to Sansa, the one thing that soured their relationship was when he convinced her to marry Ramsay and how that turned out, Sansa is wary about whether or not to trust Littlefinger especially about if he knew what Ramsay was like or not but also in Sansa’s point of view Littlefinger came to her aide when she asked for it and they wouldn’t have won back Winterfell without his help.
So yes as the audience we know what a slimy little shit Littlefinger is but you can’t assume Sansa does as well, you need to look at it from her perspective. It’s like us assuming everyone in Westeros knows about the White Walkers because we’ve seen them but they don’t know about them nor will they easily believe The North about them.
Flayed Potatoes,
It’ll be like season 6 all over again, there’ll be a disconnect between what is said and what is shown on screen…
This is why I’m praying that the leaks are false, lol :/
The picture of Rory McCann and John Bradley is adorable. Wonder if those two will be meeting in the show. If Sam does discover something wildly valuable to Jon’s purpose, he and Gilly are going to have to leave the Citadel some time, I’m just wondering if it will be this season. I’m looking forward to Sandor’s take on being in cold weather, clasping a blanket to himself. It should make for some hilarious grumbling. No wonder he’s grumpy. I don’t think there is much chicken north of the Wall, either.
How tall is Isaac now? Looks to be about 6’2″ at least. Wait until his brother and sisters see him. Hope it is early in the season, I can’t wait for Bran to start letting everyone else know what he knows. Did the family have any indication of Bran’s powers? I don’t think so, it wasn’t mentioned – he only started talking about his dreams to Osha, after everyone else was gone.
I like Aidan Gillen as an actor, but his character, Petyr Baelish, is a rat. And Aidan does him so beautifully. It should be very interesting to see how he works his way around everyone toward his personal goal of being king. In the scene at Moles Town, when Sansa gave him hell for selling her to Ramsay, he looked sweetly penitent. You almost wanted to believe him. But as Sansa even said, anyone who trusts Littlefinger is a fool. Please Sansa, follow your own advice.
Vincent Stark,
Flayed Potatoes,
She should know better but as she’s said in past “stupid, stupid girl. People quote what she said to Jon about not trusting little finger but don’t forget, she’s not always truthful with him.
Mel,
“Hero” might be a tad too strong for me ^^
Sansa knows how dangerous Littlefinger and she has known it since she saw him kill Lysa. The manner in which Baelish dispatched his wife, a woman he had grown up with, is as savage as it gets. He could have simply pushed her and been done with it but no. He had to “only Cat / your sister” it. Furthermore, Sansa heard every word of Lysa’s final meltdown, including her aunt’s revelation that she had lied and killed for her beloved Petyr, though she did not reveal (to) whom.
So I sincerely doubt she views Littlefinger as a hero.
In my opinion, she sees him like a poison. A venom, a toxin.
Now, it so happens that most if not all such substances have a therapeutic effect as well as a lethal one, depending on the dosage. One drop of essence of nightshade will calm frayed nervers, three drops will offer a night of dreamless sleep, ten drops and you never wake up.
In small dose, Littlefinger is incredibly useful and potent : he is intelligent, cunning, ruthless, efficient, etc. In high concentration, watch out !
ACME,
Jon has too many aunts. I got confused for a sec and thought you meant Lyanna lmao. Sorry.
– Robert flat out told Ned to unite their families as the Lyanna – Robert marriage didn’t take place. Marrying the king’s heir is not something you can refuse lightly. In that society, it’s seen as an honor. Again, it’s not like Robert is some lordling you can say no to and send him on his way.
– Ned realized on the Kingsroad that Joffrey was a whiny teen and a brat who got disarmed by a girl. Teens are whiny and bratty and generally that’s not cause for alarm. Jon was whiny too. Ned did not realize the true extent of Joffrey’s evil until he was imprisoned.
– He told Cersei to run away and take as many men as she can because Robert’s wrath would follow her. So she could go into hiding/exile somewhere and still raise her kids. He was not doing this to wash his hands so Robert would kill them and keep the lines pure wtf. He thought Robert’s rightful heir was Stannis and as much as I dislike the character of Stannis, Ned had a point. Stannis was Robert’s successor.
– Ned kept his mouth shut for so long about Joffrey’s parentage because: 1. He only put the pieces together later when Sansa made the golden hair comment and then he still had to check all those records and make sure his suspicion was right; 2. he was… you know trying to prove it and gather the forces necessary to ensure a peaceful transition of power; he even wrote to Stannis to inform him and had to wait for him, as he was not in KL
– Explaining to his daughters might have been risky and maybe he thought it was best not to involve two children in this messy business; if it doesn’t work then Sansa and Arya could be seen as accomplices to treason for “following the plan” lol
– I never said that Robert was a saint, but he was definitely less dangerous than Roose and Ned doesn’t have to answer to Roose for anything, but he does have to answer to Robert
Vincent Stark,
Luka Nieto,
Jenny,
Really? Nobody knew? You don’t think Ned knew when Sandor came back with Mycah’s body slung over Stranger?
A 13-year-old boy who orders the death of another 13-year-old boy, a peasant whose sole “crime” was witnessing Joffrey’s false bravado and subsequent cowardice, is a complete sociopath.
ACME,
True that, Sansa knows Littlefinger is no saint for sure but she also has no reason to believe he is a Stark hater/killer even less reason in the show than In the books where Lysa admitted more of what she had done for Littlefinger
Vincent Stark,
But there is no way to find it out on her own.
ACME,
LF expressly stated in his “sexposition” scene that his objective was to f*ck the Starks specifically. (There’s a scene in S2 with Catelyn that I’m going to look for that shows he didn’t “love” her either – he deceived and doomed her). Anyway…
I’d better not get started on Ned. Or Catelyn for that matter. I misplaced her “Mom of the Year” mug.
I agree. He wants her by his side when he’s on the Iron Throne, so he’s trying to get her to want it so that she’ll strive for it, even if it’s at Jon’s expense. His reminders that Jon isn’t a Stark, he hopes, will be enough to overcome any scruples she might have. I don’t think he’ll succeed, even if she might be tempted. She might not be sending him away, not to learn from him, but because of the old adage: Keep your friends close and your Littlefingers closer. Better to know what he’s up to rather than having him run back to Cersei.
On a side note, in the video, the reporter calls Sansa a warrior. Sigh. No. Sansa is not a warrior. At all. And guess what? That’s OK. She can be strong without being a warrior.
Flayed Potatoes,
Ned did find the courage to tell Robert to go to hell when the matter of Daenerys’s assassination came up. So I really cannot subscribe to the idea of him being too “afraid” or “respectful” of his kingly friend to call off his daughter’s engagement to a boy he knew to be dangerous (I believe both Wolfish‘s and Ten Bears‘s posts make excellent points on this matter).
Telling Cersei to take as many men as possible does not cut it, as far as I am concerned. He told her Robert would follow her anywhere, so he condemned her and her children to being chased for the rest of the King’s life and gave them a headstart. If that is his definition of mercy, I do not want to know what his cruelty looks like.
As for Stannis being Robert’s real successor, you are entirely right but ultimately, why did it matter ? Why was Ned so concerned about a real Baratheon sitting on the throne ?
Ned’s daughters were in danger anyway. He might as well have told them why so they could understand.
Robert was worse than “not a saint”. He was violent to his wife (both physically and sexually), famously brutal, thuggish, stupid, impulsive and cruel (whenever a Targaryen was in the vicinity). And that was the man Ned chose to call one of his closest friends…
And, I know I already mentioned so all my apologies for being redundant, but Ned forgot he had daughters who needed him. That is something I struggle to ignore.
mau,
Mel,
Wholeheartedly agree ! 😉
mau,
I caved and read ! I am weak ^^
I can get behind Bran telling Sansa about Baelish’s betrayal of Ned. To be quite honest, even in the books, I never really understood why she does not already know. It would have made so much sense for Joffrey, being the gleeful little shite he was, to tell her every detail of her father’s arrest… But, ok.
As for Arya kiling Littlefinger… That sounds just bizarre. After all, Arya has little to no connection to Baelish. For her to be the one who kills him seems completely out of the blue.
Chreechree,
I do not pay attention to the “warrior” references anymore. This idea that the only way for a female character to be considered “stong” is for her to possess masculine attributes, preferably in the form of a weapon, seriously makes me want to type in all caps so… I let it go 😛
Ten Bears,
Are you referring to the “their fame, their rule, I’m not going to fight them, I’m going to f*ck them” line ? If so, I believe the “they” in question refers to the whole highborn class. Duels are not specific to Starks; they are a symbol of the entire nobility’s legitimate violence.
Mel,
LF did not kill Joffrey to “sneak [Sansa] out of there.” He admitted to her that he killed Joffrey to curry favor with his “new friends”, the Tyrells.
Worse, LF unnecessarily framed Sansa for the regicide HE commited, via the convoluted poisoned necklace stone plot.
And then right in front of Sansa, he killed Ser Dontos. “A bolt to the heart buys a man’s silence forever.” Lovely.
Admittedly, Sansa had no great love for her husband Tyrion – who did not treat her shabbily – and yet LF framed him too and left him facing execution.
LF also conspired to undermine and defeat Robb and the Starks in the War of the 5 Kings but that’s another story.
ACME,
– So you think he could have just told Robert his son was an ass and everything would be a-ok? lol no He had to respect King Robert and the royal family, just like Sansa had to respect King Joffrey and the royal family and side with him. Friends or not, defying the king is a serious offence. That is how the world is constructed in the show/books.
– Cersei and Jaime had committed treason, which is punishable by death. It was mercy. You can survive in exile, as Dany as shown. Difficult, but manageable, especially as Cersei would start out with a bigger advantage than Dany did
– Ned is concerned because he wants stability and because What Cersei and Jaime did was treason. It’s the succession law and lack of proper succession laws or any succession issues cause instability and civil war, as we’ve seen from past Targaryen conflicts.
– So does Robert being a shitty person make Ned a shitty person because Robert was once his closest friend? lol Is Jon then a shitty person because Tormund (who pillaged villages and killed innocents btw) is one of his closest friends now? Was Robb a shitty person because the man he trusted and thought was one of his closest friends killed two innocent farm boys? Is Sansa a shitty person because she chose to side with Joffrey and her testimony led to the murder of an innocent boy? This is a story set in a violent medieval society. Everyone in this series is probably friends or has a close relationship with someone who has done horrible things.
Out of curiosity: You struggle to ignore that Ned had two daughters and under your assumption he did not care for them because he told Cersei (under the hope that innocent children would not get killed; after all it’s not the kids’ fault Cersei had an incestuous relationship). Is this your struggle? Then, do you have an issue with fans who struggle to ignore what Sansa did at the Inn on the Kingsroad? (I’m not one of them, but I’m curious as the two cases are somewhat similar)
And if you look at Ned’s thoughts and actions in the book/show, he had not seen Robert in a long time, didn’t like what he saw and didn’t like how Robert had changed. He was shocked in the show when Robert slapped Cersei. He clearly had no idea Robert was that type of person. Sometimes the people you are friends with in your youth end up disappointing you and you later might discover things about them you didn’t know.
ACME,
It’s the famous sexposition scene where Littlefinger talks about how he lost the duel with Brandon and how he loved Cat, and how bitter he is Ned married her and how they’re in love. The humiliation from that duel is what motivates LF to do what he does and why he wants ‘everything’. And fucking over the Starks is actually the key to ‘everything’.
as an aside: I just rewatched the scene and lmao @ Littlefinger’s accent; it’s 100% different from how he talks in the later seasons
Here’s how LF “plays the game”:
1. Coerce or conspire with other people to commit murders;
2. Then, kill your co-conspirators and (unwitting) accomplices;
3. Frame innocent people so they are accused of and executed for the murders.
4. Lie, deceive and cheat your “friends” so they betray each other.
Anyone learning how to “play the game” from LF is learning how to be a consummate villain. Not a “diplomat”, “player”, or “savvy politician.”
(Margaery knew how to “play the game” without being a serial killer.)
ACME,
You may be right about “they.” I was going by recollection. I thought he was talking about learning from his mismatched “duel” with Ned’s older brother. I’ll have to go back and rewatch that.
Still, his disgusting hostage exchange scam pitch to Catelyn demonstrates that he really does want to obliterate the Starks. He’s been using Catelyn 2.0 as a commidity like one of his hookers; I wouldn’t put it past him to give her the “Ros” sendoff if she outlives her usefulness to him.
He’s just a lowlife, murderous pimp.
Flayed Potatoes,
There you go! Thanks. That’s the scene I was trying to recall in my comment a few minutes ago at ~ 8:27 pm.
So now Ned is worse than LF?!!
LMAO
Watch as next season starts, Sansa fans will actually try defend the position that Jon is worse than LF and that Sansa is right to trust LF over Jon.
It’s going to be a fun season!
Yes, I do remember. I actually like that scene ^^
To the best of my understanding, the dual with Brandon made him realise that he was not, and would never be, one of “them”, aka the nobility. He cannot fight like highborn men are trained to and his younger self was too low on the totem pole to dare hope marry a Tully. Losing the fight and being expelled from Riverrun reminded him of his real status : the highborns may have let him live among them as a ward but they never saw him as one of their own. The moment he forgot himself (set his sight on Catelyn and defied Brandon), he was brought back to his reality (“Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not”, as Tyrion would say)
As a result, Littlefinger wants to destroy “order”, namely the social structure that prevents him, a low-ish born person, from ascending to the throne and getting “everything”. In order to destroy that order, he needs all the Great Houses to lose their traditional heirs (male, firstborn, legitimate, able-bodied) to create a power vaccuum he can take advantage of. In a world of bastards, cripples and broken things, his own social shortcomings no longer matter.
I seriously doubt he ever targeted the Starks out of resentment. He focused on the Direwolves and the Lions because he had Lysa at his disposal. And also because these two Houses were the closest to King Robert (by marriage for the Lannisters and by friendship for the Starks). Instigating conflict between these two families meant creating unstability around the throne. And, sure enough, the dominoes started falling… ^^
Ten Bears,
Let’s be fair, Margaery never played anything, not even a musical instrument ^^
She simply did what her gran told her which was,in essence, get married and smile.
It is astonishing how people still believe this Littlefinger propaganda. Littlefinger himself is part of this so-called aristocracy he hates so much. His father was a Lord, he received a better education and treatment than 98% of the people in Westeros, because his father was a Lord. Littlefinger inherited lands, just being a landowner in a feudal society is a huge step-up compared to the peasants. In truth Littlefinger was never poor or a commoner, and he received all of his advantages in life from being born as the son of a Lord.
His father became friends with Hoster Tully during the Blackfyre rebellions, and as a result he was taken in as a ward by the Tullys. The Tully’s are one of the paramount families of Westeros. This is a big privilege, Littlefinger’s first step in life was achieved by being privileged enough, and because he had a father who could be in a position to become friends with a High Lord. Next he manipulated Lysa Arryn into becoming a Controller of Customs in Gulltown, and then Jon Arryn brought him to court as the Master of Coin. This is the big sum of Littlefinger’s suffering to become what he is today. He became the Master of Coin because of that privileged relationship with Lysa Arryn.
He was taken in by Tullys as a gesture of friendship, and slept with one of Hoster Tully’s daughters, that is the huge amount of suffering he experienced in life.
In fact someone like Ned actually had to work much harder to become the Lord of Winterfell. Ned was also just a ward for a paramount family just like Littlefinger. But he had to fight wars and lose family members to become the Lord of Winterfell.
If you believe Littlefinger is a poor commoner who had to sweat, toil and work his way to the top like a starving artist, then you have been thoroughly duped.
If you believe Littlefinger is somehow a revolutionist who wants to change the world then again you are very much mistaken. Littlefinger doesn’t care about what system is in place he just wants to be on top of that system.
Littlefinger is responsible for the deaths of thousands or perhaps even millions of people with the war that he created. It is always funny to see how people are so concerned with characters such as Ramsay and Joffrey, Littlefinger is a hundred times more dangerous than anyone of them could ever hope to be, and he has killed far more people through his actions.
Varys is the one who actually came from nothing, he had to sell everything to get where he is.
There is really nothing left for Littlefinger, and there is nothing that he could offer. What advice is he suppose to help Sansa with currently that will be so valuable? The North and the Vale is already united under Jon. His dreams for the Iron Throne has now been extinguished with the arrival of Dany, she has Varys and Tyrion with her, they wouldn’t let Littlefinger near her.
He has betrayed Cersei so he can’t go back to her. He can’t approach Lady Olenna because she has sided with Dany. I guess he could try Euron?
Littlefinger really has nothing left.
The North should be preparing for the attack of the White Walkers, but instead we will have Sansa and Littlefinger trying to play mind games with each other, while the North is already secured politically. Or Littlefinger will only be distracting Sansa from what is really important. His advice and counselling are really meaningless at this stage against White Walkers and zombies.
Vincent Stark,
That’s why I’ve never been interested in the Sansa and Littlefinger plot, in either the books or the show. It lacks suspense. Sansa can have Littlefinger killed any time she wants.
Boudica,
I have to admit I love the idea there could be such a thing as a “Littlefinger propaganda”. That sounds awesome ! ^^
To be fair, I do not recall presenting Littlefinger as a revolutionary concerned with the greater good. He only cares for himself, that is uniquely obvious. It just so happens that to get where he wants to be, he needs the whole system to crumble.
Baelish’s father was a minor lord and the “lands” he inherited are basically a house. In the Fingers. A lovely place if you are a rock ^^ You are right to say that it is still better than what the overwhelming majority of Westerosi possess but, compared with the Great Houses, it is close to destitution. His great-grandfather was a sellsword, his father a hedge knight and his father a knight. Social mobility in action. 🙂
In fact his birth is low enough that Tywin had to give him a new title (Harrenhal) to allow him to marry Lysa without it looking too degrading for her.
Ned did not have to work to obtain Winterfell and the title of Warden of the North; it just happened that his father and elder brother died and he didn’t. That does not take away from the tragedy that befell the Starks during Robert’s Rebellion or Ned’s military accomplishments but to call it work seems strange. Ned did not conquer Winterfell or the North, he inherited it.
Littlefinger became Master of Coins because he returned unique profits at Gulltown. Jon Arryn did not take him to King’s Landing out of charity but because Baelish made money. As for Littlefinger sleeping with Lysa, considering that the first time around, he was not even aware of who was in his bed, it sounds a lot like rape…
In regards to Varys, you are absolutely correct. He is a completely self-made man. However, if we are comparing body counts, Robert’s Rebellion, which Varys appears to have had a hand in, killed about as many people as the War of the Five Kings, I would think. And the Dothraki invasion he was planning in season 1 / book 1 would probably not have been painless for the realm and its inhabitants either.
OT, but there’s a wonderful new interview with Gwendoline Christie in Newsweek:
http://www.newsweek.com/2017/07/14/game-thrones-has-many-unforgettable-characters-gwendoline-christies-brienne-634270.html
Boudica,
You wrote, and I couldn’t said it better:
“Littlefinger is responsible for the deaths of thousands or perhaps even millions of people with the war that he created. It is always funny to see how people are so concerned with characters such as Ramsay and Joffrey, Littlefinger is a hundred times more dangerous than anyone of them could ever hope to be, and he has killed far more people through his actions.”
———————–
I don’t get the “propaganda” either, or the revisionist portrayal of LF as some sort of brilliant political genius. He is amoral and evil. And you’re right: he is responsible for exponentially more deaths and suffering than Joffrey and Ramsay combined.
It appears I cannot respond to a post by Flayed Potatoes… That is a bit frustrating 🙂
Without Littlefinger, there wouldn’t be much of a Game of Thrones to begin with. 🙂 Love that guy. Only a fool trusts him, but he will respond to save your collective asses against the Boltons even after you say you never want to see him again. He’s a rather necessary scoundrel, he is.
Rory rules.
Ten Bears,
Since when being a “brilliant political genius” has anything to do with being moral, amoral or immoral? Sadly, there are numerous examples in history of brilliant and immoral political “geniuses.” Besides, aren’t “amoral” and “evil” contradictory terms?
I know I’m being redundant too, since I said this a while back….
• The show (not sure how books portrayed it) conveyed that Ned was out of his league but because he didn’t realize it, he got outmaneuvered. In other words, I’m not bitching about “bad writing.”
• Ned had already cautioned Arya: “I don’t want to frighten you, but I don’t want to lie to you either. We’ve come to a dangerous place.”
I do not condemn his judgment to give Cersei’s children a “running start.” What is inexcusable is that he didn’t make sure his own daughters were far, far away in a secure location BEFORE he confronted Cersei. In effect if not intention, he was more concerned about her incest bastards than his own daughters.
• As for telling Sansa and Arya what the danger was so they’d understand: The “honorable” Ned Stark has always had a tenuous relationship with the truth. He’s never hesitated to fudge, omit, or tweak the facts if it produced the “right” outcome.
He could’ve told his girls something like: “I don’t want to alarm you and it’s probably nothing but my household guard has picked up some chatter about threats to kidnap highborn children of friends of the king. It’s probably nothing, but I need to send you away – immediately – just for a week or two until we investigate and get things get sorted out.”
• Donald Rumsfeld once said something about confrontations with an adversary: there are the unknowns you know about, and the unknowns you don’t know about.
A protective father would get his children far away from the zone of danger well before the sh*t hits the fan, because you never know if bystanders will get trapped, or caught in the crossfire.
• There were too many “moving parts” for Ned to think he had the luxury of giving Cersei a heads up before taking care of his own children.
A Dornish Tyrell,
“…Besides, aren’t “amoral” and “evil” contradictory terms?”
……………………….
I didn’t think so, but I’m going to look it up and get back to you.
I look at LF as someone who doesn’t care about right or wrong. He would kill his own grandma if it meant he could climb a rung on his silly laaaddddaahh.
………….
A Dornish Tyrell,
Just to be clear: being amoral or immoral doesn’t make one a political genius. My point was that unlike S2 Tyrion, I don’t see anything particularly smart or shrewd about LF. He’s just a lowlife killer and a coward.
It’s more complicated in the books. LF holds all the power there.
On the show, yeah, she can kill him anytime she wants.
Pigeon,
Well yes, Rory rules!
And LF…waited until the Stark forces were almost wiped out before sending in the KotV. Suspicious timing, don’t you think?
Ten Bears,
Well, he did manage to obtain a lot of political and economical power (and just know he even has an army) basically from scratch… I would consider that that requires a lot of political genius (a most maquiavelic one.) I don’t dispute that Tyrion is politically very savvy, but I’d consider his role in S2 more of a ruler and/or administrator of KL (a sort of Prime Minister if you will… and a good one at that) rather than of a politician (he didn’t have to compete with other political factions to be named Hand of the King… he was directly appointed by his father.)
ETA: I’m not disparaging Tyrion. He did show a lot of cunning when he isolated Cersei and got rid of many of the people loyal to her.
The story is full of propaganda, it is part of the POV experience. We often see Littlefinger through Sansa’s eyes and she believes what he sells. Davos and Stannis have a similar relationship, where Davos truly believes in Stannis and we mostly see that through his eyes. Or how everyone just knows that Jaime is the Kingslayer and a oathbreaker. Sometimes you have to look past what the POV of the character is trying to sell you. Littlefinger often tries to tells us that he is a lowborn person, who raised himself to his position due to hard work and his wits, I am sure this is even what he tells himself. But if you truly look at his history, and his action within this world you quickly discover the real story, his privileged birth helped a lot.
A minor Lord or not, he father was a Lord, and he received privileges because of that fact. High Lords dont give out wardships to commoners. Littlefinger created his whole life on this connection that his father was able to secure for him. It goes back to being the son of a Lord, he is certainly not a lowborn like many people claim.
The whole system would never crumble if Littlefinger somehow managed to take the Iron Throne, we have a bit of a historical example to verify it.
No one has ties to Littlefinger and no one would fight for him when he is gone. His regime would crumble back into the dirt, and quickly fade.
Britain had Oliver Cromwell as the Lord Protector, and after his death they happily embraced the feudal system again. To crumble a system isn’t enough, you need something better in its place, and Littlefinger would not be the right answer.
GRRM has said that Littlefinger is somewhat based on Jay Gatsby, and if you look at what happened with him it is interesting, no one cared about his death, and the privileged people just immediately went back to do what they have always done. As soon as his usefulness ended, everyone was quite nonchalant about his death. Littlefinger’s usefulness is done.
Littlefinger did a good job with the numbers in Gulltown, the education he received in order to understand those numbers came from his time in Riverrun. Littlefinger does do well with opportunities he is presented with, but he also uses Lysa to coerce Jon Arryn, into elevating his position.
The first time around was likely rape, but he has certainly used Lysa to his advantage over the years. He even tells the whole court that he slept with both Tully sisters.
Varys is the same as Littlefinger, the only difference is, he is actually truly a self made man, and does not want to sit on the throne directly.
ACME,
” Let’s be fair, Margaery never played anything, not even a musical instrument ^^
She simply did what her gran told her which was,in essence, get married and smile.”
———–//
Really? I’ve rewatched Margaery’s scenes with: Joffrey (esp crossbow scene); Tommen; SER POUNCE!!; Sansa; KL orphanage; adoring KL crowds; LF; High Hypocrite; and Renly. She played them all masterfully.
The only one impervious to her charm offensive was Cersei, and Marg overplayed her hand. 💥🔥
Oh, and here I thought Sansa seemed quite pleased with it! We’re supposed to thank her, remember. Getting her first ‘kill’ and all, to boot!
SerNoName,
Well, no, she can always tell Lord Royce that Littlefinger killed Lysa. Or, better yet, tell him that Littlefinger poisoned Jon Arryn.
https://twitter.com/JimmyKimmelLive/status/884569783911317505
30 minutes until new footage! (They always bring like 30 second clips with them).
A Dornish Tyrell,
Maybe my problem is that I feel a master “manipulator” should be charming and beguiling, but to me LF is just slimey.
An example of what I mean by “charming and beguiling” is Bridget (Linda Fiorentino) in the film “The Last Seduction.” LF could take some lessons from her.
Great movie for those who haven’t seen it. Bill Pullman and Peter Berg co-star.
The original discussion wasn’t about Littlefinger being a good politician or not, the discussion was if Littlefinger actually had valid advice or anything left to offer for Sansa. The North is already secured politically. Being a politician is not going to help you against White Walkers and armies of undead. He is not a diplomat, he can’t even be used to make alliances with other rulers, because he has burned a lot of brides in his wake, no on would be interested in making alliances with him at this stage. So there is really no use for Littlefinger anymore. It is also somewhat doubtful how good he is as a poltical if most of the realm wouldn’t want to associate with him.
Ten Bears,
Well, I guess there are more than just one way of being “charming and beguiling”.
In any case, thanks for the recomendation. I’ll add “The Last Seduction” to my “To Watch” list. 🙂
Boudica,
I have never had the feeling that Baelish presented himself as lowborn… That is why I usually refer to his as low-ish born : technically noble but with nothing but a title to his name (no real lands, no estate, no fortune, etc.). Until he received Harrenhal as a reward, he was noble like Davos’s son was or like Bronn’s children would be, if he had any. He stems from the recent and impoverished aristocracy, the nobility’s underbelly, those who are just highborn enough to be received (or warded) yet certainly not high-up the foodchain enough to be perceived or treated as equals. One step above commoners, basically.
That explains why Hoster Tully felt confident throwing him out of Riverrun; had Baelish had an important last name, the incident would have been dealt with much more diplomatically.
In regards to things returning to “business as usual” after his death, I am afraid I cannot concur. While Cromwell’s regime did die with him, the restored monarchy that followed was significantly different from the one he had toppled. Charles II’s structural powers never matched those his late father had had before his beheading. No event, especially none as significant as a civil war or a regicide, is ever without consequences.
As a matter of fact, the political landscape of Westeros has already changed in a way that cannot be undone. With all but a few of the traditional heirs gone (I worry for Edmure and Sweetrobyn), precedents have been set by new types of ruling figures and, as we know, “as good the king so goes the kingdom” : absolute primogeniture is now a distinct possibility (Cersei), the validity of guest’s rights is thoroughly questioned (the Red Wedding), the notion of illegitimacy is becoming dubious (the Sands, Jon), etc. None of that could or would have occurred without the War of the Five Kings.
Littlefinger apparently genuinely believes he slept with Catelyn… He was so drunk he did not even recognise Lysa that night. As for him using her to his advantage, of course he has. Just like she has used him to hers, needing him to persist in this trauma-induced emotional arrested development of hers (thanks to Hoster and tansy).
I have never seen Varys’s alleged lack of personal ambition as a redeeming feature, to be honest. Whether he wants to sit himself or someone else on the throne is ultimately irrelevant in terms of the consequences for the population.
As for the status of self-made man, I guess it depends on one’s definition of the term. If receiving any kind of help or structural support on one’s way up (the laddah ^^) renders one not “self-made”, then even Varys may not qualify since he got where he is also in great part thanks to Ilyrio and the Mad King. To me, “self-made” simply indicates that one’s ultimate wealth or status were not granted by virtue of birth but result from one’s abilities or deeds, regardless of what they may be. Davos, Bronn, Littlefinger, Varys, Tormund, Jon (as Lord Commander, not KitN)… All self-made men.
Well, she is implicated in Lysa’s murder herself and helped cover it up. She is not sure whether Royce can be trusted and she knows LF will protect her and look out for her interests. I mean, she is still a bit of an idiot, but her situation is more precarious in the Vale and LF has not harmed her personally.
On the other hand, in the show, she is now in Winterfell. She is with her brother who will support and protect her. She no longer needs to depend on LF for safety. So, she can be rid of him.
Ten Bears,
To me, it looks like the same “trick” in all circumstances : smile warmly, tell people they are wonderful, move on… ^^
And I think we cannot forget that the efficacy of said trick relied heavily on the Tyrells’ power. Had Margaery hailed from a poorer and less mighty House, I doubt people would have given two hoots about her smiles, no matter how charming.
Renly was in love with her brother.
The population of King’s Landing knew the Tyrells were the ones providing them with food.
The High Sparrow double-crossed her on the matter of Loras but wanted to keep Tommen happy so he did not hurt Margaery herself.
Tommen was a hormonal teenager who would have said “yes” to any pretty woman offering him sex.
Joffrey showed some restraint in her presence because, for all sociopathic that he was, he knew he could not afford to alienate the Roses. If Margaery had been in Season 2!Sansa’s weakened position (war hostage, daughter and sister of a traitor), that crossbow would have been much more persistent.
Olenna does not hate him (he gave her Cersei as payback for Margaery and Loras), the Sands do not know him, he appears to have contacts in the Riverlands, etc. Also, he is very rich and the North may very well need some cash.
Cersei is the only person he has truly burnt a bridge with and she will probably not negociate with the North anyway (at least, not a first) since she wants Sansa’s head on a spike.
No new footage on Kimmel. First time ever they didn’t bring a clip with them. Kit did say he shot 3 fake scenes in Spain to throw off the paparazzi though .
Edit: And he did confirm the Red Carpet Premiere is Wednesday.
Ten Bears:
Uuuggghhh, yes, Rory is everything.
But back on-topic…
Not to, like, defend Littlefinger or anything, but I thought he waited until all the Bolton soldiers were on the field and surrounding the Stark forces, so they were caught completely off-guard. Pretty much the only way to wipe out the Bolton forces was to sacrifice most of the Stark forces, which were outnumbered to begin with.
I’m going to watch it tonight (I’m not even going to kid myself into believing I possess any self-control and will stop at “The Broken Man” [drool]), so I’ll get back to you. Maybe. There’ll probably be five new posts up by then!
SerNoName,
My point is if she ever gets comfortable with any of the lords of the Vale, or if she feels Littlefinger is becoming too much of a threat to her, she could reveal his secrets and have him executed in a heartbeat.
Boudica,
Exactly! The longer Littlefinger sticks around, the worse Sansa’s character looks.
ACME,
Littlefinger is a member of the nobility, otherwise he would have never had the privilege of being fostered at Riverrun. Not buying it.
SerNoName,
Lmao I know right? I have nothing against Sansa’s fans as people, but sometimes I feel like they’re watching a different show.
Ten Bears,
Glad I could help.
You do not need to trust someone to make use of that someone. Sansa just has to figure out how to make use of LF without making herself beholden to him.
She can tell him that. However, will he necessarily believe her?
That’s how both Waterloo and Midway were won, among other battles.
Being a politician could be important when deciding whether to do anything about something so unbelievable as White Walkers! We cannot forget that, insofar as the vast majority of the characters are concerned, White Walkers are as real as snarks, grumpkins and leprechauns.
heh, it’s one or the other! After all, an amoral person rejects the notions of both good or evil, and thus cannot be either.
Vincent Stark,
Sean C.,
Without spoiling too much, I can just say… You’re just wrong, guys. The leaks you read must have been really out of context.
I am not so sure. Look at the significant numbers of politicians. Smarmy and full of shit yet influential and in their own way master manipulators.
Littlefinger’s influence comes from the fact that he can get things done — find money as Master of Coin, broker deals with various factions — all the while being thought of as fairly harmless as he has no name, no lands, no armies. Charm is a secondary concern here.
Ten Bears:
I just know that all levels of wrong will be detected in the comment to follow… but c’mon, Littlefinger is waaayyy more “charming and beguiling” than Hitler, Mussolini, or Stalin.
And IRL they were responsible for waaayyyy more dead people.
When you start looking at real history, it’s truly frightening to see who people will follow to the ends of… well, to the ends of.
Chreechree,
Didn’t watch the vid but a “warrior” huh? Hm. They must have meant it as like a true “survivor.” Poor word choice maybe. Warriors don’t sit on horses watching other people fight.
nvm
I am going to see if this version of my answer to @ Flayed Potatoes works (fingers crossed)
I have no doubt that refusing a king is no picnic but Ned defied the king over Daenerys. Why couldn’t he do it over his daughter ? Had he reached his defiance quota ? ^^
He did not have to insult Joffrey; he could simply have said he no longer wished for Sansa to be married to him.
In regards to exile being survivable, Daenerys’s was unquestionably difficult but she was not relentlessly pursued by Robert. Jon Arryn had a moderating impact over the his protégé‘s reign and practices and prevented him from expressing the whole of his wrath. Without this influence, Robert would have gone berserk. As a matter of fact, he did. Shortly after Jon’s death, he ordered a hit on Daenerys and only the gods know how he would have chased Cersei and her (two) innocent children.
Ned knew that. Yet, he thought revealing some poor kids’ real lineage (while keeping his nephew’s secret) was a matter of honour.
As for the Lannister twin having committed treason, it is true. But then keeping Jon’s real identity a secret was treason too and so was changing the wording of Robert’s will. Does betrayal only count when the Lions do it ? 😛
I am not so strict as to think that Robert being horrible makes Ned horrible by association. However, I do think that Ned choosing to remain friends with someone he knew to be horrible prevents him from claiming the moral high ground over anyone.
Ned knew of Robert’s reaction to the sight of Ellia and her children’s corpses. He even abandoned his friend his disgust because of that. However, for some reason I cannot understand, Bobby weeping over Lyanna’s death somehow redeemed him in Ned’s eyes and they reconciled. Why does crying over a woman cancel out sniggering over the mutilated bodies of two children ? I simply do not get it.
In regards to my Ned-related struggle, I cannot forget that he had accepted to die “like a soldier”, in the name of his honour, seemingly omitting he had two daughters who desperately needed him to stay alive for their own survival. Left on his own, in a cell, Ned did not forget about his beloved principles but he did forget about his children’s interests. Varys had to remind him of their existence to change his mind. That leaves me puzzled.
On a general note, I find it difficult to use the same standards to evaluate the actions of a child and those of an adult, to be honest, so I usually do not compare Sansa’s and Ned’s deeds. But I have no problem with fans who cannot forgive or forget Sansa’s actions back then. I disagree with them completely but I can see where they are coming from.
I am more than willing to accept that Robert had changed a lot in the intervening years and that Ned was shocked by how openly vile his friend had become. But he did know of Robert’s smile in front of three corpses. He did know Bob was that type of person. And I think it could have been enough.
zod,
over 500000
Now now, I agree with a lot of what you said re: Ned / LF, but let’s be fair to Margaery. She had both Joffery and later Tommen pretty firmly under her spell. Not that they were exactly difficult to manipulate – no one has ever argued that Tommen or Joffery are particularly high-IQ lol.
I do agree that she didn’t have a lot of “big picture” political goals. But she was doing well with her strategy of “marry a king and rule through him”.
Sean C.,
Have you never said anything in life and gone back to on?
Sansa has been through a lot and LF was always there.. yeah she ripped him a new asshole for the Ramsay thing.. but she totally used him to get the Vale and to get revenge on the Boltons. And now, LF is going to try and pin her against her brother, and to me, even though she said “only a fool would trust LF”, it is only HUMAN for her to kind of doubt herself about it… those last years she spent a lot of time with LF and he does a pretty good job at “showing” that he cares for her… so she may start to question herself.
I don’t understand why its so hard for people to believe.
mau,
100%
The question for me is how far she takes this… and her final decisions will show where her loyalties truly lie. And if she goes against her family, well then that is just who she truly is (foreshadowed by the incidents with Lady in season 1).
Unfortunately she doesn’t know that, yet. I hope she finds out.
Jack Bauer 24,
Wait what? They shot three fake scenes? Did people know this?
Luka Nieto,
Lol, are you allowed to spoil a little more? Which particular events take place that makes her start mistrusting LF?
That’s entirely possible indeed… It is a show where Ned is basically a good and well-intentioned man with a hypocritical streak the size of the Kilimanjaro stuck in his blindspot. And he makes mistakes a toddler could avoid too.
It is a fairly good show, I have got to say. Sean Bean dies in it 😛
In re. Ned.
I have no doubt that going up against a king is no picnic but Ned did find the courage to defy Bobby B. over Daenerys. Why couldn’t he do it over his own daughter ? Had he reached his defiance quota ? ^^
He did give Cersei and her children the “opportunity” to live in exile and yes, exile is technically survivable as proven by Daenerys. However, Robert did not relentlessly pursue the Targaryen children. Jon Arryn seemingly had a very “calming” effect on Robert’s reign and his most pathological tendencies. Without Arryn, Bob would have gone berserk. As a matter of fact, he did. Shortly after the Falcon’s death, he put a hit on Daenerys. Only the Gods know how he would have chased Cersei and her children…
As for the matter of treason, the Lannister did commit it. But then so did Ned when he hid Jon’s true lineage and changed the wording of Bob’s will… Does treason only count when the Lions do it ? ^^
I am not so unforgiving as to consider Ned a horrible person for associating with a horrible person. However, I do believe that aligning with Robert in spite of knowing how horrible he was forbids Ned to claim the moral high ground on pretty much anyone.
Ned knew of Robert’s reaction to the sight of Ellia’s and her children’s mutilated corpses. He even dropped his “friend” in disgust over that. Yet he decided to reconcile with him simply because Bobby grieved over Lyanna… Why should weeping over a dead woman cancel out smirking over the massacred bodies of two small children and their mother ? I do not get it.
Also, Ned forgave Robert even though he firmly believed him capable of murdering Jon, an innocent child whose sole crime was his parents’ identity. Why would Ned decide to remain friends with someone he thought capable of such a thing ? While turning up his nose at the Lannisters because of their association with the Mountain ?
King Bobby did change a lot in the years he and Ned did not see each other, it is true. He worsened and indulged in some of his worst characteristics. But what Ned knew in the immediate aftermath of the Rebellion could (should) have been enough for him to call off the friendship there and then.
In regards to Sansa’s actions at the Inn, I usually do not use the same standards to evaluate a child’s deeds and those of an adult so I rarely compare Ned and his daughter. But I do not have a problem with fans who cannot forgive or forget her attitude. I disagree with them thoroughly but I think I can see where they are coming from.
As for my Ned-related struggle, it relates to his time in the cells. He decided to die “like a soldier”, in the name of his honour and pride, thereby omitting he had two daughters who desperately needed him to live for the sake of their own survival. In the cells, with nothing to do but think and reminisce, Ned never forgot about his principles but he seemingly forgot about his children’s interests. Varys had to remind him of their existence so he would change his mind.
I couldn’t agree more. War is always political, no matter how Great.
I agree enthusiastically with you, Dornish Tyrell, yet I am cynical enough to remove the “sadly” from the sentence… 😉
Being moral does not prevent from being a terrible ruler and being amoral (or even immoral) does not prevent from being a brilliant one, I would think. The eternally plastic concept of morality is not that crucial when it comes to politics for ultimately what rulers are judged on is their action, not their intention.
Tywin was not a moral man still, by all accounts, the Seven Kingdoms and its population prospered under his rule.
QueenofThrones,
Far from me the desire to dispute Margaery’s charm. What I do question is the extent of her agency. The “plan” (for her to marry a king and take advantage of the position to benefit her family) was not hers but her father’s and the execution of said plan was, to a great extent, orchestrated by Lady Olenna. Margaery understood the political potency of affection and love, of that there is no doubt, however her ability to mobilise that potency was indexed on her family’s clout and her relatives’ patronage.
Lady Olenna is no fool : she killed Joffrey because she realised that, for all of her granddaughter’s charms, the king would eventually revert to type and victimise his wife. Because beguiling smiles and flattery have their limits and a mad dog is a mad dog. Without her gran’s rescue plan, Margaery would have suffered the same fate as Sansa at the hands of Joffrey.
The idea that Margaery was a “player” seems, to me, supported much more by style than substance. She did look very cunning, with the arched eyebrows and the smirks, but her actions do not quite match that appearance, I believe.
I actually remember giving a smirk of my own when she was broadly declared a talented manipulator due to the reveal that she was lying about her adherence to the High Sparrow’s fundamentalism. All I could think of was that it was, almost beat for beat, the Sansa plot from seasons 2 and 3 : a captive faking allegiance to her captors’ cause. Yet, no one calls the Stark girl a master manipulator for that. But, apparently, when Margaery does it, it becomes a Blackburne’s Mate… 😉
ACME,
Maybe because nobody believed Sansa in seasons 2 and 3.Not even Joffrey.Whereas Marg fooled almost everybody.
Luka Nieto,
oh oh oh
Can you clarify some other things too?
Is it true Inspector Gilly discovers that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married? It’s so hilarous I want it to be true lmao.
Oh, and is Jon’s name Aegon?
#TeamSchadenfreude
Isn’t it great? Now maybe the “leaks” brigade will be stunned.
Ten Bears,
No we won’t.
Wimsey,
Re: “amoral and evil”?
After reading a Dornish Tyrell’s 7/10/17, 10:03 pm post, and yours at 7/11/17, 5:11 am (“… it’s one or the other! After all, an amoral person rejects the notions of both good or evil, and thus cannot be either”)…
All I can say is:
“A man can only admit when he was wrong, and ask forgiveness.” 😣
Flayed Potatoes,
Really? Well, I don’t want to know.
But what I DO want to know is: what does your (new?) avatar mean?
Ten Bears,
i know!!
Ten Bears,
You don’t want to know that either lol
How I see this whole Sansa and Littlefinger situation:
Sansa should keep LF around and listen to him, but never trust him. She knows that his plans included her being named Queen or Lady of Winterfell. That didn’t happen, so Sansa knows that LF is going to try to do something, and that might not be good for Jon. She needs to play along with LF and figure out what he is trying to do. He did tell her: “Always keep your foes confused. If they don’t know who you are or what you want, they can’t know what you plan to do next.” I think she will pretend that she is going along with him (the audience is probably supposed to believe that as well) and then when the time is right she will destroy him. The pack survives.
By keeping LF close to her she can learn what he tries to do. Keep your enemies close and all that. If she banished him or something, there’s no way for her to find out what his plans are. She also can’t just have him killed right away. He did bring the Knights of the Vale to help the Starks, after all. Also little Lord Arryn very much likes his Uncle Petyr, who’s to know what he would decide to do during a temper tantrum if he hears that LF has been killed.
LF has value to Sansa in other ways as well. Most importantly, she knows some of the things that he has done. She can turn Robin Arryn, and the Vale in general, against LF by telling the truth about Lysa’s death. Also, she is still wanted by Cersei for her involvement in Joffrey’s death. If she was in a hard situation, she could reveal who truly was part of that assassination. That has potential to help bringing some type of peace or truce between the Starks and the Lannisters. LF started the feud between these families, the truth of his involvement could bring an end to it.
I truly never understood hate-watching…
I agree so much with your entire comment.
To add, why would she get him killed? Right now, she has NO reason to… if its for giving her to Ramsay, well she had that moment before (doesn’t mean this wont be one of the reasons why she would do it in the future). But right now, killing LF is out of place
She knows some of the things he has done to get to where he is, but she does not know everything.
OH MY
http://www.gettyimages.ca/license/812380904
hahahha
Luka Nieto,
I’m not hate watching, but I find those parts to be so ridiculous/funny I can’t help but laugh and poke fun at them. Laughing about something isn’t the same thing as hating.
Semi-Off Topic: Since I did compare LF unfavorably to the character of Bridget in “The Last Seduction”, here are a few non-spoilerish tidbits in case you watch the movie. (In an abundance of caution I’m covering a portion in spoiler-coding though it really doesn’t give anything away.)
• Bridget is cited as sort of a role model by Samantha Jones (Kim Cattrell) in the pilot episode of HBO’s “Sex & the City.” Most likely she’s referring to a scene early in the film in which a lunk tries to pick up Bridget in a bar, and she turns the tables on him when he persists even after she tells him to “f*ck off.”
That 2-3 min. scene is available on YouTube.
• Roger Ebert on “The Last Seduction” (excerpted from his “Best 10 Movies of 1994”):
“This is the kind of tight, brassy, tough, smart movie that Hollywood used to make in the 1940s…. . Now it hits like a blast of fresh air. The movie stars Linda Fiorentino in what is surely the best female performance of the year (although she is ineligible for an Oscar nomination because the movie played on HBO before going out to a theatrical run). She plays a woman who likes money very much, and who knows what buttons to push on the men who will help her get some.
***
What Fiorentino gives us is a dangerous dame who
is not afraid of men, does not compromise, and is not locked into a formula that requires her to cave in during the last act.
***
The movie was directed by John Dahl… “The Last Seduction” received some of the year’s best reviews from London critics before American distributors could see its quality.”
Jenny,
I am sorry to ask but who is everybody ? The High Sparrow ? I sincerely doubt he was fooled by anything; he just let her be to keep Tommen happy and subdued because he wanted the King in his backpocket. If someone played anyone, I am afraid it was the High Sparrow who played Margaery, especially over the Loras matter. She fully expected her brother to be somewhat spared and the Septon double-crossed her by mutilating the Tyrell heir.
As for Septa Unella, she followed Margaery everywhere and oversaw her conversation with her grandmother which, in my opinion, was not exactly a sign of trust. If she did not trust the Queen, then she probably was not fooled.
Note: Spoiler-coding didn’t work, even after editing
Flayed Potatoes,
The most recent name I saw going around (that hasn’t been confirmed) is
Luka Nieto,
Even still, that isn’t really very impressive compared with the idea of her actually outwitting him at some point, outmaneuvering him politically in some way, through superior skill and savvy. Showing that she is smart enough to exploit his weaknesses and screw him over, as he has done countless times. For the arc to be satisfying, Sansa needs to out-Littlefinger Littlefinger.
The current dynamic between LF and Sansa in the novels is rooted in politics, and manipulations, and schemes.
Clob,
I hate that name lol.
Flayed Potatoes,
*shrug* I’m not sure any name is going be liked. His name is Jon to everybody. 🙂
Clob,
But his real name is Kit 😛
100% true
But yeah I’ll still call him Jon lol.
Wimsey,
The Lords Declarant were already suspicious of Littlefinger. All Sansa has to do is confirm those suspicions.
Neither the show nor the books have left enough time for Sansa to genuinely be able to out-maneuver Littlefinger in a realistic way. If this is the route Martin goes with the character, it will be pure fan service. No, the only realistic way for Sansa to deal with him is to undo Littlefinger with the information she already has on him.
Luka Nieto,
Thanks Luka, that’s really interesting, I fully trust you on this and it contradicts the leaks I read which said something along the lines of
I’m largely trying to avoid spoilers now but it does show how much mis-information is out there. So hopefully plenty for us to still discover in the new season.