Our hearts are sure to be broken this coming Sunday when the Battle of Winterfell between the living and the dead finally hits our screens, after so much dread and anticipation. A few days before, here are the cast and crew, including episode director Miguel Sapochnik, to tell us what we should expect from the upcoming battle…
At The Hollywood Reporter, Game of Thrones writer and co-producer Bryan Cogman teases the upcoming battle at Winterfell for which his heartfelt “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” episode did much of the heavy lifting to emotionally prepare us:
“This is the dread coming to your door,” Cogman paints a dramatic picture, as if telling a scary story by the campfire. “The White Walkers and the Night King are the end personified. Whatever that means to you, that’s what you’re going to see next week.”
“This was a part of the story we invested a lot of time in to get right,” he says. Cogman’s not just proud of the battle’s conception, though, but of its production as well: “[T]he effort put in by our crew and our cast… is absolutely unparalleled and unprecedented — and I’m going to go so far as to say in the history of filmed entertainment.”
“I’ve worked a lot with [director Miguel Sapochnik], because we did ‘Hardhome’ and ‘Battle of the Bastards’ together. When you’ve starred in sequences like that, it’s like you’re climbing a mountain,” corroborates Kristofer Hivju, the Norwegian actor behind one of the (unfortunately) likely victims for this Sunday’s episode, Tormund Giantsbane.
“We knew we had 56 night shoots in front of us. We were going into two or three months of night shoots. That’s pretty intense,” Hivju says, highlighting the challenging production behind the upcoming battle episode. “Miguel was the greatest commander-in-chief you could find. He literally had huge armies around him. He’s trying to make this all fit together. Some days, we were 900 people at lunch. It was just crazy. I haven’t seen the episode, so I really don’t know. But I think it will be pretty intense.”
“I’ve been working on it since June of 2017,” Miguel Sapochnik, director of this season’s episodes three and five, tells James Hibberd at Entertainment Weekly. “I’m shooting for seven and a half months, which is like 130 days, which is longer than most of the big movies that get made. So in terms of the amount of work, it’s been 6 and 7-day weeks, 16-to-18 hour days and, yeah, it’s a lot. I knew that was a lot when I came on board.”
“As usual, the scripts are bigger than what we actually end up making. The process of whittling it down took longer this time,” the director admits. “Because [showrunners and writers] David [Benioff] and Dan [Weiss] wanted everything. We all want everything but we were up against the reality of what we could achieve in the time we had.”
If you were worried this battle will be an emotionally disconnected one-hour murder-fest, don’t you worry. Though the action is promised to be out of this world, Sapochnick insists it will be focused on characters, as anything else would make it tiresome:
“The thing I’ve put the most hours into was is… how to not have an audience feel battle-fatigue. After 20 minutes of watching a battle, you’re over it. So how do you stop it from being a battle in that sense?”, he asks rhetorically, before answering his own question: “It feels like the only way to really approach it properly is take every sequence and ask yourself: ‘Why would I care to keep watching?’ One thing I found is the less action — the less fighting — you can have in a sequence, the better. We also switch genres. There’s suspense and horror and action and drama and we’re not stuck in killing upon killing because then everybody gets desensitized and it doesn’t mean anything.”
Despite these “switches” in genre, Sapochnik mainly sees the episode as “survival horror.” Am I being too naïve if I admit I hope the emphasis is on the “survival” part?
In the original interview at EW, Sapochnik reveals a few other tidbits, such as the fact that he was originally going to direct episode four as well, and that episodes three-to-five play like a single story, “a complete piece with a beginning middle and end.”
#ForTheThrone
I can’t remember ever anticipating a film or TV episode this much in my life. OMG, I’m so not ready.
Sunday just needs to hurry up.
I’ve waited years for this, as have we all.
And yet, I’m not in the slightest bit prepared for what’s to come 💀😢
Not ready… not even close to ready! Goosebumps of terror just reading this article! And we will watch it in the dark…
They keep referencing Helm’s Deep as the longest battle ever and how this is going to top that, but wasn’t the Battle of the Pelennor Fields in Return of the King longer than that? It was deffinetly bigger, with more armies and more “weight” than Helm’s Deep. How is this going to compare in length with that?
[Transferring my comment from the previous post]
“What I really like about 3, 4, and 5 is they’re a complete piece with a beginning middle and end.”
and potentially the Golden Company if they decide to fight for Jon and/or Dany instead.
Very interesting. I don’t expect everything to be resolved the next episode with regard to the Night King & AotD so I’m assuming Ep. 4 deals with the aftermath and Ep.5 retaliation and perhaps additional help from the Reeds …
“One thing I found is the less action — the less fighting — you can have in a sequence, the better. We also switch genres. There’s suspense and horror and action and drama and we’re not stuck in killing upon killing because then everybody gets desensitized and
it doesn’t mean anything.”
I do recall in a previous Hibberd interview that they didn’t want the episode to be purely battle but that they would cut to different perspectives and storylines which is nice. I think I would be tired of watching a full on battle sequence for more than an hour. Also, so much of the technology has advanced since LotR so I’m also excited for the visuals. But also camera visuals and cutting to these different POVs. That single-shot in The Watchers on the Wall was amazing!
Also another hilarious Omaze promo from Emilia for the series finale! 😂
https://www.instagram.com/p/BwuUg8QFOD9/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
Dark Sister,
This Sunday, the night will be dark and full of terrors for all of us this time.
Still trying to decide what to cook for this one. I’m thinking steak, cooked over a grill as hot as dragon flames, served bloody.
Wolfish,
I have a feeling this may be one of those rare occasions in life when the reality matches the hype.
I know it’s only a TV show. And yet…
I’m scared !!!!! 🤧🤢🤧😓😥
#PrayForASNAWP
HelloThere,
I would say it’s likely. She says this in the Omaze youtube video
Does that mean we’re not gonna get our ice spiders as big as hounds?
I’ll FedEx you my heart and my guts. Both will be torn out by Sunday night anyway.
100% Dead: Edd, Theon, Beric
90% dead: Jorah, Mel
50/50: Tormund, Grey Worm, Brienne, Missandei, Gendry, Pod
Everyone else: safe until at least Kings Landing.
Yeah I was wondering what he was referring to. Probably ice spiders. I wonder if the wight giants will be part of the AotD at WF.
This is going to hurt so much >_<
They are shown breaking through the wall and marching with the AotD. So my guess is yes to wight giants, no to ice spiders.
I Just Hope that beside of course the Episode be SPETACULAR,emotional and the best battle of got.
I Hope the NK is not defeated in Episode 3, would be the most idiot thing Ever.
The WW and the NK are shown as the bigest threat since season 1 Episode 1, and it was build up ALL Seasons as the main problem for ALL westeros, not only the North. And the Devil itself dont pass not even the north would be the most retarded thing of the show.
The people of westeros in general dont suffer is pathetic, the fear of the WW would be almost a lie, a big threat that can even pass One region? The north? Please no, would loose ALL the purpuse to build up they as the most dangerous thing.
At least in the books its FACT they ll Go at least on the trident. please dont do that stupid thing DD.
Jack Bauer 24,
I would think so, they have always been shown as part of the AotD. Plus they’d be cheaper than ice spiders.
Shame about them ice spiders though. Knowing D&D pushed for Toby the Undead Polar Bear, I imagine them having pushed for ice spiders as well.
I was really hoping for a scene where Ghost fights an ice spider.
Ryan,
I think Grey Worm and Missandei have a good chance of survival: Dany must learn that the slaves she freed are finally willing to get free for real and that shoud have an impact on her character development or, to put it more precisely, break her heart even more. It’s a hard ordeal for Dany: she has just lost her birthright; her armies are on the brink of abandoning her; she’s being stripped of all her finery, but I guess that’s necessary to find who she realy is and not ony for us but for her as well.
I’m not convinced that Mel will show up in time for this first battle. They may be saving her for King’s Landing. We’ll know if we see her or Kinvara in the ‘Previously On’ segment, I suppose.
I would swap Theon for Jorah. Jorah’s arc feels more finished to me. A gallant death defending either Dany or Baby Bear completes him. Theon still has a couple of things left to do.
Firannion,
Aaaaand this is why I don’t watch the “previously on” segments 🙂 Obvious tipoffs, and I don’t wanna know!
So I have just returned home from traveling and finally, last night, watched ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ I will watch it again tonight.
I’m sure that most things under the sun have been said already… All I will add is
FUCKING STOKED.
Pardon the language. But that was a fantastic episode. I love what’s happening, this season so far, with basically every arc. That was absolutely one of my favorite episodes of the series. Loved Pod singing Jenny of Oldstones.
It’s all just so freaking ominous.
And while I would love to believe that the carnage will only be limited to supporting cast (even if I love some of those characters), I just feel like that’s too easy.
I think Jon, Dany and Arya are the only three who are 99% likely to survive. Out of the rest, one will fall – Sansa, Bran, Tyrion, or Jaime. My money right now is on Jaime, dying in a truly heroic act of selflessness that completes his redemption arc.
I’ve been thinking a lot about that scene with Missandei and Grey Worm making postwar plans. It might mean more than the usual war-movie trope of doomed characters talking about going home, just to put viewers’ hearts through the wringer. I think it’s really important to show the ‘happy freed slaves’ claiming their own agency. It would compensate somewhat for Dany’s squirm-inducing White Savior mosh pit scene in ‘Mhysa’ if she had to face some of her most avid supporters deciding to go their own ways once the immediate task is done. Not that they will out-and-out betray her, but simply choose to pursue their own dreams.
Firannion,
Agree on Mel, could be WF or KL but she will die.
Theon is 110% done. He saved Yara, he made amends to all of the Starks. He will absolutely die defending Bran.
Make yourself a bowl of brown.
Lol,
+1 If they will be defeated it will feel like a cop out. The build-up of years, last season ended with them breaching the wall and we are “oh no we’re fucked, the most dangerous treat is south of the wall”.
Then we have season 8 (which I think is awesome till now), and the NK would be defeated the first time we see him in action in season 8? Yes we saw what happened to the last Hearth, but this is not really showing the horror Westeros will face with the WW treat.
And I think there’s a reason why they decided to show a “What-parts-of-Westeros-Is-already-taken-over-by-the-death” blue titles in the title sequence. I expect that to be in the whole season (except maybe the last if the NK is defeated in 5.
Weymar Royce was the first character to die in the series, and he died fighting a white walker. Maybe they will homage that by having Yohn Royce be the first character to die in this episode, or at least have him go down fighting a white walker too.
I bet instead of ice spiders there could be an undead mammoth. And bran will have an encounter with his former buddy hodor, now with sad blue eyes.
Maginor,
That’s a good one!
I could skip the Ice Spiders as long as Ghost is around, and the right size. 🙂
Also wouldn’t mind Nymeria’s pack giving an assist at some point.
In my dreams, since Bran is a warg and all, having the direwolves join the Ironborn in protecting him in the Godswood would be kind of awesome. Just saying.
Yeah if they couldn’t do elephants and ice spiders, maybe they’ll surprise us with something else like the wight polar bear last season.
I want both! I want Ghost battling ice spiders, getting in trouble and Nymeria and her wolfpack saving the day! 😉
Firannion,
Yes, it follows on Jon and Davos their conversation with Missandei in S7: “then she will give me ship and wish me good fortune”
Btw, I started to fear that maybe they misdirected our attention to the “expected deaths” (giving Jorah, Theon, Brienne and Jaime screentime in E2) only to take some characters away that I don’t yet fear about…
I’m intrigued by the three-part story comment. I wouldn’t be surprised to have the resolution of the battle in E4, but E5? Sapochnik did E5 too, but I hope they don’t fight the whole time. Would be funny though if both the living and the death make it down to KL and Cersei has to reconsider her strategy.
New beautiful death https://beautifuldeath.com/image/184460748848
I wonder if there will be a time jump between episode 5 and 6. If the first 5 feel like one story, then why doesn’t the final episode in the season get included in that? Will there be a jump ahead? Possibly for gestation related reasons? Or to see what the new monarch’s tax laws are?
I do think there will be some kind of time jump in the end.
I love that! Love so many details, but the first one that caught my eye was the four direwolf heads in the hearth to signify the four Starks at Winterfell (and yes, Jon is a Stark too).
Che,
Those details are amazing. Reflections of Brienne, Jaime, Davos and Tyrion. The swords. The wine glass and spear where Pod was sitting, the horn where Tormund was. The onion and lion on the back of the chairs.
Gendry’s hammer, the direwolves etc.
Just-wow.
I’m going to miss this art. I really am.
Anyone else see the video of Emilia Clarke in New York dressed as Jon Snow inviting people to the premier of the last ever episode? She remarks “It’s the last time you’ll see muggins (points to self) with the Dragons” Is this confirmation she makes it to the last episode?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acqxeL8mQvw
I was worried that all the talk about longest battle ever could actually get boring after a while if we were just watching people hack at each other with swords for an hour. I’m glad to read these quotes that there is more drama to this episode than nonstop action.
One thing I still don’t like though is the direction they took the White Walkers and wights. I don’t mind the White Walker appearance but I hate the decaying zombie like horses they ride that look like they are falling a part. The decayed zombie look of isn’t too bad for the wights except when they take it too far, the worst of course being the skeleton look. Please no skeletons this episode.
Sounds like it!
Firannion,
Exactly. And that exchange between Greyworm and Missandei rhymes with the one between Dany and Sansa: what about the North? I still think that the North has to lern to behave to be worthy of independence, but this time Sansa absolutely sold this issue to me. I remember having a very similar conversation with some Russian democrats during the August Puch of 1991: what about independence? And that’s why I still can’t get over this episode. And that’s why I really worried about Dany. I do believe that, despite of everything, she’ll prove to be a true breaker of chains and let everyone go but she’ll be left withought anything and totally dependent of Jon-Aegon. And although I have faith in him, too, I still pitty Dany, cause this problem has no solution.
Sansa and Tyrion have costumes in the promotional materials (specifically the EW covers) that we haven’t seen yet, so they’re safe.
Thanks for posting this. I am another fan of Robert Ball’s Beautiful Death and hope they put together a book of the complete collection. So much creativity and detail in each one.
The comment from Dany that “the dead are already here”, still seems out of place to me. They heard the 3 horn blasts, so EVERYONE knows that already.
Miscellaneous Ramblings of a Frightened Fan (Part 1 of a Series)
1. Farewell Ser Jaime. You came all the way back from ignominy and reached the pinnacle of knighthood. Die a hero of the wolves, you golden lion!
2. Time for Tyrion to sack NK with a ferocious hit from his blindside, strip the ball and run it back for a touchdown. I’m counting on him to come up with a game-changing play. Jorah’s unexpected endorsement of Tyrion for his intelligence, and Tyrion wisely sitting down to debrief BirdBrain. have to mean something.
Tyrion drinks and knows things. Jon Snow knows nothing. Sansa’s a slow learner. Bran’s still tripping on weirwood Kool-Aid. Beric thinks this is all part of a Lord of Light stage show. Arya’s preoccupied with sticks, staffs, spears, thrusts and parries. That leaves the Imp to come up with a brainstorm.
Jack Bauer 24,
Jack… I took that to mean not just that the AotD have arrived outside WF, but that some are already inside it.
Jack Bauer 24,
Ten Bears,
I’ve been thinking about it off and on all week. I keep hoping that it’s simply something like this:
When they get up there looking out at everything Jon tries to continue the conversation they were having in the crypt and Daenerys snaps at him a bit with, “There’s no time to talk about it now. The dead are already here!!”
HelloThere,
Dany and Jon will live through this, there’s too many unanswered questions over their heads which are important to the whole series and who they really are as characters to go for a shock death in battle… at least, that’s what I’m telling myself.
Great interview.
‘He was originally going to direct episode four as well, and that episodes three-to-five play like a single story, a complete piece with a beginning middle and end’.
This is in my opinion the closes we’ve come to getting confirmation that the WW will not be defeated next episode.
They’ll probably go down by the end of the fifth episode, leaving the finale to wrap up the rest and deliver an epilogue.
3 episodes of the Long Night, that’s what I think we’re looking at. I really hope so, anyway.
Could be, but the problem then is still AeJon. He’s been the one that’s telling everyone that the AotD are coming and there’s no time for anything else. So with him knowing that they have arrived from the horn blasts, why would he try to continue that conversation. They all should be scrambling and gearing up for the battle.
The North will be decimated so there won’t be anything left there to rule. The dead have killed everyone in the villages on the way to Winterfell and they likely will destroy WF before they head South. Sansa and the rest of the Northern leaders are so busy pushing back over who is going to rule the North that they don’t really comprehend that there may not be a North after the NK and his army are finished.
We haven’t seen much of Euron and Cersie in the first 2 episodes and we know we won’t during the next episode then it stands to reason the last 3 episodes will center on the South. Whoever survives the battle in the North will likely have to retreat to the South and we’ll see how much or how little they have left to bargain with after Sunday night. I don’t expect Euron and Cersie will roll out the red carpet for the Starks or Dany. And I certainly don’t see those two heading North anytime soon so I’m thinking the South is where the real end of the war will happen.
Jack Bauer 24,
Yeah, I don’t know… I guess I can imagine them standing there and she’s basically ignoring him while they wait to “go,” so he just starts to say something. In the confused mood she’s in she probably wouldn’t let him get more than two words out before stopping him. *shrug*
Somebody else had mentioned that maybe Dany wants to fly in with the dragons, but AeJon wants to hold back and that’s when Dany says that line. That could be it. The Bran bait plan is to keep the dragons close to Bran for when/if the NK arrives, but that could all go out the window when the AotD rush in.
“I’m shooting for seven and a half months, which is like 130 days, which is longer than most of the big movies that get made. So in terms of the amount of work, it’s been 6 and 7-day weeks, 16-to-18 hour days and, yeah, it’s a lot. I knew that was a lot when I came on board.”
So the man can direct but cannot do math. 30×7.5=225.
Yeah I’m that guy
Shiiiiiiiiiiizzle. Sapo and team are going to blow my face off and, like most of you, I’m not ready. Been thinking about this episode for years. how it would play out, who would die, etc. And now that it’s close it’s hard for me to work. Meet with clients. Talk about my company. Of course I’m bringing up GoT in EVERY meeting. And anyone who doesn’t want to talk about it I give them the Queen of Mean Bella Mormont stare. As a dude, I don’t do “resting bitch face” very well but I sure as hell try.
Come on Sapo…give me some fan service with ice spiders or something just off the wall for Ghost to fight. Knowing how GRRM likes to kill our hearts, Nymeria is already turned and shows up with her pack to attack the good guys.
That’s the thing I’m most dreading…you KNOW there will be a few twists that we are all like “No Way!”. That’s consistent theme of this entire show and why we love it. It’s a painful kick in the ass where we say “Thank you Sir/ Madam, may I have another”
At least I don’t have to read this first like the Red Wedding where I threw my book across the room to hit the wall, scare my dog and piss my wife off. That was a fun night…on the couch. Crying. With a beer. Sigh…
Ryan,
I looked at last week and this week as whose story must continue after this week – that helped me whittle the field down to likely candidates of who lives and who dies. For example, we’ve had far too much dialogue about Arya’s list (with a convenient reminder from Beric last week) to have her die. Also, Tyrion needs to have a redemption and Cersei needs to see how wrong she was about him – so he is safe.
However, what is the story about Beric? It’s all about the NK and the LoL, so he’s done. Also likely done ( 😞) is Tormund. He’s been Jon’s wingman for every fight against the NK. We don’t know anything about him except for his affinity for breast milk, and his ability to tell allegories which tells me his story is going to come to an end. This makes me sad as he deserves to rest.
Neither Jon nor Daenerys’ stories are complete, so I would expect them to survive. The same with Sandor – his story has never been about fighting the dead, it’s been about Arya, redemption, and his brother.
I’m honestly so hyped fo next episode, anxious and thrilled at same time. If there’s an episode I believe can beat my top 2 episodes on my ranklist, it’s the next one. The way how everything was built up… I believe an amazing piece of the journey awaits me.
On other note, I finally found time to write a review for previous episode.
http://forum.watchersonthewall.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=337
I think so. I’m not sure there’s any other way to interpret her words 😂.
I think they may leave her fate up in the air for 8×03 since she is appearing on Jimmy Kimmel on Wednesday [May 1], and D&D will be on the following day [May 2]. But I hope not as that’s kind of cheap.
“Time for Tyrion to sack NK with a ferocious hit from his blindside, strip the ball and run it back for a touchdown. I’m counting on him to come up with a game-changing play. Jorah’s unexpected endorsement of Tyrion for his intelligence, and Tyrion wisely sitting down to debrief BirdBrain. have to mean something.”
My speculation is Sam and Bran understand that removing the dagger of obsidian from the NK’s chest will unmake him back into one of the First Men. Tyrion then combines with them on a strategy to lay hands upon the NK for Sam the Shardectomer’s game of Operation. (Let’s hope he swiped some Valerian Steel tongs from the Citadel…)
I also speculate 3ER will have at least one green-seer battle with the NK, to immobilize the NK for the operation. We’d then cut repeatedly between their virtual battle to the “real” world, where Sam works feverishly as WWs get closer and closer to try to rescue their king.
(And just as they’re about to pay Sam the Slayer back in grand style, one WW after another suddenly shatters. It seems in their haste, they overlooked No One…)
If the battle against the Night King and the AOTD lasts until episode 5, then say goodbye to any conflict between the human characters. At least no drama that would make sense. Once everyone sees the AOTD, there is no going back. They band together and fight. No bickering about who is the rightful heir or will the North have it’s independence. It’s all one big horror movie.
I know some people would love that, but I would be disappointed. That’s not how I hope ‘The Game Of Thrones’ wraps up. And I’ll bet George has the climactic battle half way through the final book, not at the end.
This was the big budget episode. I bet and hope it’s the end of the NK and the AOTD.
I’m still betting on the NK not being there. AeJon is going to tell Dany to wait for the NK and she’s not going to sit back and watch her army get massacred, so that’s when she’ll say “the dead are already here” and then fly in on Drogon.
Just get on with it, will you? Enough with the hyperbole. I’m ready for them to deliver on all of their promises. So far they have been found wanting. The first two episodes this season have disappointed me greatly but episode 2 (with apologies to Harold Schonberg) was truly nothing more than “A Swinburnean melange of sad glad mad bad.” It is astounding to hear people say It is “the best ever” and, even more, it is amazing hearing It described as “great.” Is this really the reality? It certainly is not mine.
All of the stylistic elements of the storytelling which made the show a favorite of mine have been tossed aside for the super-stripped down barren episodes of season 7 and 8. Last week I ranged from astonishment at this, to exasperation to outright anger and tears. Yes it was sweet to see Brienne knighted; and nice to hear Podrick sing and amusing in having Tormund clown (thank God he did as his were the most memorable moments) but where is the deeper urgency of advancing the overall story arc? With so much left to resolve and explain in so few episodes, the urgency of telling the story seems displaced in favor of presenting and giving us a full episode of revolting sentimentality over-painted with homages and call backs to a dreary fan fiction which, in totality, adds up to major cringe.
Arya! Girl, I love ya! But… you need to stay clothed until receiving some of Doreah’s lessons in seduction! I blushed( and so did many others), covered my eyes, shuddered and cringed mightily while watching you and Gendry “go at it.” I simply could not believe what was being shown. Williams said when she initially read this scene she took it to be a joke. Ain’t it the truth.
I’ve resigned myself to the seemingly obvious fact that Dany’s storyline will end in cliche as well as find It’s finish in farce. All of the time spent following her through her many heartaches, disappointments, sufferings, liberations, betrayals, triumphs while cheering her perseverance, will have been for naught as she is being portrayed as a common end game villain. Will we get “a dance of dragons” with “Mad Dany” and Good Jon battling each other and finally killing the dragons and themselves? It appears…
On another note: I have no intention of spoiling others joy, but as usual, my tongue cannot be bridled for long. LOL I simply had to say this. But… I’m cheered by the promises of this coming week’s episode. I’m ready for the shit to hit!
The last episode 8.2 did not have any dragons and it was great! The entire beautiful episode rested on well acted, well-built characters.
However, I suppose the silly creatures will have to return in the other episode. I was surprised and a little disappointed when Saponick said 3,4,5 were beginning, middle, end. I wonder what he means. Geez, I hope that does not mean we are forced to watch garbage piled upon garbage. For me, the dragons are the worst and most infantile parts of GOT. We have had battles that worked – like Blackwater, Hardhome and Spoils of War. I hope that is what we get.
Not a fan of the Castle Black battle or BotB?
I did not at all like BoB. Hated that stupid donut thing.
The battle of Castle Black was fine. Liked some of the camera work here.
Reply from Reformed Anti-Baby Drama Fan
If Queen Dany or King Aegon repeal bastardy laws as antiquated and unjust (more enlightened societies like Missandei’s don’t even recognize the distinction, as she disclosed upon first meeting Davos and Jon), or legitimize bastards as magnanimous, “end of the world” wish fulfillments, then yes I think there will be a nine month time jump between Episode 2 and the conclusion of Episode 6.
After all the speculation about Boat Sex Baby and Dany’s fertility, and Cersei’s purported pregnancy with Lannister ncest baby bastard #4, wouldn’t it be a total goof if neither woman is pregnant? Or that neither one is able to carry a child to term?
Then, to add a twist to a twist, the one who gives birth to the promised Prince is the girl who chafed against traditional gender-based roles, including the expectation that she’d someday rule a high lord’s castle and their sons would be princes and lords.*
Forgive the pun, but from the dynamic of Arya’s encounter with Gendry in S8e2, it’s pretty clear who’d be wearing the pants in such a union.
* (S1e4)
Ned: “You will marry a high lord and rule his castle. And your sons shall be knights and princes and lords. Hmm? – ”
Arya: “No. That’s not me.”
Arya, who grew up painfully aware of how Jon was slimed as a “bastard” and treated as inferior to the Stark “trueborn” children, would not subject her own child to that. So, if there’s a hint of legitimizing Gendry, I think we may very well see the twist upon a twist; Ned’s prediction for Arya’s future would be realized, though on her own terms.
Otherwise, the Gendry-Arys tryst was simply Arya embracing her humanity after years of suppressing it (in Sandor’s words, being “a cold little bitch”), and Gendry yielding to his attraction to a self-assured, alluring young woman who was no longer the androgynous tomboy he’d met years earlier.
I’d prefer that a gestation-related time jump not involve Arya. Who’d want her saddled with an infant? [However, Sandor as godfather would be a spin-off show I’d definitely watch.]
Tensor the Mage, Whose Tinfoil Dome Radiates With The Light Of A Thousand Suns,
That would be incredible! Lovely!
I do believe Tyrion’s wits & fireside chat with Bran will be important before the series is over.
& Sam’s always a smart hero + he’s spent time with Bran too
I expect big plays by our hero archers: Ayra, Theon, Jaime, Gendry? Tormund? & possibly, but unlikely, even Bronn & supposedly deceased Uncle Blackfish
I do not watch horror movies – so if this is the way it goes, it is the end of GOT for me. I hope not.
Ten Bears,
So fun!
I would watch that sequel forever!
Either outcome for Ayra would seem appropriate
I do like the idea of her getting to explore the world a lil more 1st
As long as she makes it to thw end, I’m more than good
Sapochnik said it’s “survival horror”.
A dragon was in the Spoils of War though…
Jack Hamm,
Everyones entitled to their opinion. Yours just happens to be wrong.
Nowytends.
Jack Bauer 24,
Sigh yes! I will watch and see if I can bear it. I am one of the viewers that can change the channel on GOT. Horror is not my thing – I have one life, I try not to waste any of it. It is fine for others, I am not judging.
Mr Derp,
Yes, I am reconciled to the dragons in the story as horrific weapons of mass destruction. I am also aware that once you introduce dead monsters, you need to introduce weapons that can destroy them. This is how I see dragons and Daenerys. So modest doses of dragons are OK. Three episodes, I do not know.
The Spoils of War battle was through Jaime’s eyes. It was a spectacular viewpoint and performance. Then he tried to kill the dragon rider/dragon – that run along the water was great cinematography.
Carice has posted a few GoT stuff on her Instagram the last few days, perhaps foreshadowing a Melisandre appearance.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
The White Walker threat will not end in 1 episode. They have built this up since episode 1, it would be stupid for it to end in 1 episode with them not even making it past Winterfell. However, that doesn’t mean that Euron/Cersei, Bronn assassin, and Jon/Dany conflict will disappear because the White Walkers. They set those up for a reason. That is what makes it so exciting. We have no idea where the story is going and how they are going to resolve it. The direction the show takes after episode 3 is a huge mystery.
This is going way back to S1, but how was Other raised as a wight at Castle Black?
Well, I understand that because they have built up this enemy as a big deal then they have to spend a lot of time dealing with it. So I suppose it has to drag on a bit.
However, these upcoming episodes are all nearly feature-length movies. If we had gone to the cinema you can see an entire battle done in one movie and not think it weird to have it done. Actually, I am sure we have movies with the entire World War II started and done in one movie.
In LOTR we had humongous battles fought in one episode – a 3-hour episode, I suppose. But the big final battle with monsters did not last an hour. (I am sure someone remembers exactly how long it went!)
So it would be quite possible NOT to use 3 episodes on this fighting/horror.
I hope they manage to get back to the GOT that mattered to me. GOT was better for me when Tywin, Joffy, Roose, Oberyn and Oleanna were alive – none of these ever heard of the AOTD or saw a dragon. As we saw in Episode 2, we still have characters and actors that can carry this thing to a graceful end – I hope we get back there before the credits roll.
Mango,
I understand that but this has ALWAYS been where the story was heading.
Though I doubt the human drama is completely over and done with, the dead will play a huge role regardless.
Hardhome was also horror, how it was directed. That horror element made that episode work. I’m not a fan of the standard horror movies. Hate them. But they way got implement horror is amazing.
Mango,
+1 on the dragons. For me they are the least exciting thing of the show. They were great in spoils because we see things through jaimes eyes. For me the white walkers are so much more excited and interesting.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Or course. If the nk stays till the end there can’t be any drama.
Just like in LOTR there could be any drama as long as sauron was alive. Oh wait. There was lots of drama even when sauron was alive the whole saga. Same as here.
The nk will survive probably and we still get lots of drama. If dany loses it we get a lot of drama and we see Jon struggle to get everything right again. And if she is not and stay the hero we always have cersei. Who stated that she doesn’t give 2 shits if the army of the dead is beyond the wall. She will show you the human drama.
Human drama can come in many forms. Not only political backstabbing. We can get a lot of drama from the heart this season. For instance if Grey worm lives and misandei dies. We can get a beautiful scene when our heroes take their 5 minute run break to talk about it. And have Grey worm saying he doesn’t like that he got emotions because of misandei. (just an example)
And we don’t know the whole truth about the white walkers. Maybe some human surprises will we get in episode 3 4 or 5 connected to them. We have the bran is nk theory with help of weirwood time travel theory. There’s the Gods eye theory which I hope is true, that’s much much more interesting than having them defeated at winterfell. And there’s another theory that I’m going to put in a new comment.
So don’t be a sour puss. Just enjoy what D&D with the help of GRRM cooked up for us. You probably will like it.
JamesL,
Oh I know, but that drama would be ridiculous and unsatisfying if they do it while on the run for their lives and while still trying to find a way to defeat the WW. It would feel forced. Once they see the AOTD they are forced to face that reality and realistically be consumed 100 percent with survival. Do you really think there is any room to naturally include any Starks/Jon/Dany drama?
I think people are seriously discounting that the NK will be defeated this episode. This is episode 10 of the 13 episodes of ‘A Dream Of Spring.’ So well over half way through the approximation of the final book. We have seen big battles against the WW in ‘Hardhome’ and ‘Beyond The Wall’. Yes, the WW will probably make it further south in the books, although Winter(White Walkers) falling at Winterfell is kind of poetic. But this is not the books. This is probably the biggest budget any episode will have. If the NK survives and makes it further south, his army will swell to a ridiculous size once he gets to the Riverlands, which saw the most casualties in the War Of The 5 Kings, and would provide tens of thousands of corpses for the AOTD.
There is no partially defeating the WW. And they haven’t hyped multiple huge battles against the NK, as far as I can tell.
HBO has usually found a way. Sopranos, The Wire, etc found endings that were not B-grade/trash TV. Let me hope for the best.
kathy,
“The North will be decimated so there won’t be anything left there to rule. The dead have killed everyone in the villages on the way to Winterfell and they likely will destroy WF before they head South. Sansa and the rest of the Northern leaders are so busy pushing back over who is going to rule the North that they don’t really comprehend that there may not be a North after the NK and his army are finished.”
_________
Good observation. Even in the best case scenario, determining who if anyone is going to “rule” the North is a meaningless exercise.. It’s going to take decades – maybe several generations – just to repopulate the place. However long “the coldest winter in a thousand years” lasts, it’s going to take lots of time and labor to get farms up and running again.
Starving, shell shocked and homeless war refugees, orphans, and other survivors are going to becrightfully pissed off at supposed “leaders”
bickering about who’s going to “rule.” (In the real world, those “leaders” often find themselves on the wrong end of a noose or guillotine.)
A book reader furnished me a quote by Stannis admitting [parsohrasing] that he’d gotten it ass backwards after Davos convinced him that instead of winning the throne to save the realm, he should save the realm to win the throne.
Sovereignty, thrones, crowns and titles won’t mean squat for now. The leaders who step up to aid in reconstruction are the ones who will earn the right to rule. Anybody who’s still bickering about who is going to “rule” the North have their priorities messed up.
One caveat: Someone like Dany asserting entitlement to ruling a postwar united Seven Kingdoms who can exercise that authority to allocate resources from unaffected lands to the war-torn North can make a really good case for her position.
Kevin1989,
But this isn’t LOTR where the entire story was good vs the evil of Mordor. GRRM has said he wants the readers to have characters they love on opposing sides. He specifically brought up “hero vs hero”. The NK and the AOTD are not heroes. They’re not even really characters.
What is wrong with this being the climactic battle? You have an army tens of thousands strong, armed with dragonglass and Valyrian Steel and aided by two dragons.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I don’t see NK as a one-and-done type of guy. Win or lose in WF, he’s not done yet.
It’s amazing that a single book/show series has managed to bring all these fans of different genres together. Fantasy, Action, Political thrillers etc.
But its because we’ve been spoiled with all of it. Historically-based battles, weird alliances, political and personal betrayals, several buddy road trips (some of my favorite bits) and coming of age stories, all interspersed with faceless men, warlocks, wargs, CotF, WW and dragons.
For me, it’s been a pretty incredible but satisfying transition from out of touch royals in KL scoffing at grumkins and snarks to an all out battle for survival with the army of the dead.
Whatever happens now, whether it’s Cersei’s twisted schemes or the NK vs dragons or both, I’m fully invested in the characters and how their stories end. In fact, I have VERY strong feelings about several of them.
I think that’s a testament to the strength of this world building, as well as the cast and crew that brought it all to life.
I’m ready for whatever.
Unless it’s Brienne dying. Or Davos. Or Syrio Forel really being dead (jk I let that go months ago)
Okay I’m ALMOST ready for whatever.
Mango,
It was always headed to the army of the dead. The show started with it. Having them defeated just in the first battle we see of them in the final season after the huge cliffhanger is a cop out. Having them only in action in 1 of the 6 episodes is very cheap.
As for lotr there’s a reason why the uruk Hai and the orcs both are in play in the first movie. With the nazguls and the ringwraiths. None were defeated in first movie. The second only the uruk Hai. And the last all the enemies were defeated almost at the end of the movie. The big treat that is there since the first movie is defeated 20 minutes before the end. If they had sauron defeated in the first hour of the last movie the movie would have failed.
I personally would hate if the nk would be defeated in episode 3 because if feels cheap and easy. I don’t want the nk to be defeated in battle. I want him defeated in a more thoughtful way. (gods eye maybe?) having him defeated in battle would feel too much like a children movie like Harry Potter (which I love but got is more mature)
2. Point why I don’t want them defeated is that there are open answers about them which should be answered before they are defeated not after. Later in this post about a huge question I have that I think will be answered.
3. If the nk will be defeated that means cersei has the upper hand with Jon and dany. Meaning they win 2 times a battle that is unwinnable. Like a marvel movie. I don’t want 2 battles where one person takes on more than 10 each. And with cersei it will be 1 against 1000 at least.
The only way I agree with the nk defeated in episode 3 if dany will lose her shit. And episode 1 till 3 is destroying ice. And 4 till 6 destroying fire. (song of ice and fire)
—
The symbols in 7×04 needs to become into play. Benioff said they will become important and there’s a reason why they are shown to us.
There are lot of theories about them:
1. They are almost identical to the symbols of the Golden ratio. So maybe it’s just that a Easter egg from them
2. They represent cities. Last hearth, winterfell, and the gods eye who is close to kings landing if it’s a map.
3. They represent characters in the show.
4. They are connected to the doom of valyria.
I think these symbols are important for the defeat of the nk.
My Deadpool for this episode:
Theon
Jorah
GreyWorm
Tormund
Podrick
Beric
The Night King and his whole bleeping army
Kevin1989,
Again, season 7 and 8 are really just one extended season. So think of this as episode 10 of 13. The Night King was featured heavily in 3 of those episodes. Pretty good for a non character.
Kevin1989,
I would love the God’s Eye coming into play. The NK won’t be that easy to kill. He has obsidian in his heart. The spell that made him was CotF’s and he has some pretty impressive abilities.
I think the answer could be in one of Sam’s stolen books that we’ve heard about so often. Or a combo of Bran, Melisandre (or other) and Sam. Old gods/weirwood, Lord of Light/fire, and human knowledge etc.
Or the sword Dawn.
I’m open, but I just don’t think this current plan/info is going to be enough.
Mango,
Well, my dear Msngo, it’s clear you have reached your DSP (Dragon Saturation Point). From a technical stsndpoint I continue to admire the CGI and the way the special effects department has incorporated avian physiology and behavior.
Nevertheless, I reached my own DSP quite some time ago. I loved the final scene of S1 when they first hatched. I liked when they were toddlers tryouts to spew fire but only puffing smoke. They were okay in the Armada ship flame broiling in BoB. I think that was my DSP.
I’d take a good “I will be your champion” Oberyn speech; a “You think you’re on your own” or “Think I’ll take two chickens” speech by Sandor, a Brienne vouching for Jaime’s honor scene; and Tyrion turning Lancel into double agent scene over any dragon scene action sequence.
Kevin1989,
Sure. there had to be a battle. I just hope it goes believably but as quickly as possible.
If I remember it, the leader of the big baddies in LOTR had a leader, Sauron who spoke etc. and had some interactions with Gandalf. So the opposing side was an actual “character”. I do not expect the Dragons or NK or AOTD to say a single word in GOT. This changes things a bit. And the other baddie, Gollum was really interesting for the entire story in his conflict with Frodo.
Unrelated to this discussion: I also had a separate exploration/question on with the NK – NK seems to have defeated death itself – he raises the dead. (So does Mel. Jon was raised up.) When Tyrion said that after he was dead he would march south and kill Cersei – I vaguely wondered why he was so worried about being dead if the dead could still do stuff. With NK, you immediately go on to a second life – there are large religions with this second life as their objective. Everyone dead and buried must be excited about being raised up again.
Cersei and the Golden Company have to be the second half of the season villains. Unless NK survives and wipes out the GC himself. I mean KL has been a non factor so far and the GC and Harry Strickland are just hanging around.
Exactly! Exactly this…
I am at DSP.
I agree with all of this. Although I admit most of my DSP has had to do with a Direwolf Deficiency 😉
But I do love that Oberyn Speech.
Jaime’s bath monologue with Brienne
Pretty much anything with the Hound “Every fookin chicken” “Meryn f-ing Trant?” etc
Yoren telling Arya about that boy Willem.
And Maester Aemon’s (I MISS HIM) speech to Jon about love being the death of duty.
Olenna Tyrell-everything
Anytime Jorah or Beric speak, but mostly because their voices are just amazing.
Lots of incredible moments in this series.
I doubt the NK and the AOTD will be defeated this episode. Whilst filming was going on this very site reported that
https://watchersonthewall.com/new-game-of-thrones-season-8-spoilers-point-to-crucial-brienne-jaime-scenes/
Though I guess it’s possible that this site got fed incorrect information.
There is a zero percent chance of NK being defeated this week. Theres not going to be 3 full episodes of defeating Cersei without her and KL facing the AOTD crisis. If thats what youre expecting, you are way off.
Tensor the Mage, Whose Tinfoil Dome Radiates With The Light Of A Thousand Suns,
Though I’m sure this won’t happen, after all of the warnings Bran received from 3ER 1.0 about getting trapped in VisionWorld if he stayed too long, and Jojen’s similar, prior warnings about warging for too long into Summer, I was kind of hoping Avatar Bran would sort of mind meld with NK in a Vision, keep him occupied somehow, so both of them wind up as permanent avatar spectstors in a past time and place. Of course, Real Bran would presumably be in a persistent vegetative state with his opaque white eyeballs – a small price to pay for imprisoning NK in a past world.
Recommended destinations:
1. Crossroads Inn, 4-5 years ago, on continuous loop listening to Hot Pie enthusiastically talk about making kidney pie.
2. Dragon Pit, S7e7, witnessing Captured Wight getting bisected by Sandor.
3. Compilation: Beric Dondarrion long-winded Lord of Light sermons
I can understand the hate to dragons when the direwolves are not given screen time.
The show started with WW and It has been built up ever since…the whole plot point of ASOIAF is that kingdoms fighting each other while ignoring the great threat..
So if that great threat is defeated in just a single episode then it will be the biggest disappointment of them all..
Similarly to fight the greatest threat we have a queen and her dragons rise to power..seeing how it’s her army and her dragons that stand in the way of NK..her journey is also important ..
Imagine this how will one feel if the so called Long Night happens to be just a single night..
MeeraReed,
“However, what is the story about Beric? It’s all about the NK and the LoL, so he’s done. “
But even as of last episode, Beric was pontificating that this was the Lord of Light’s moment; he’s insisted the Lord of Light have sent them north on a mission without ever really telling him what the mission is
And most conspicuously: LoL has not made an appearance.
If Beric bites it, who’s going to tell us who or what LoL is?
NK won’t be defeated, but we don’t know how much of his army is at WF. If he sent them all and they are defeated, then he could flee to KL with Viserion. If he didn’t send them all to WF, then yeah he’s probably already on his way to KL with a portion of the AotD.
Jack Bauer 24,
Probabely shw will bring up the whole ” rightfull heir” problem with jon during the battle.
Daenerys: jon. You did not tell me. Do you have a claim to the iron throne?
Jon: this is not a good time. The dead are coming.
Daenerys: the dead are already here. Dont evade the question I asked.
Ten Bears,
Ten Bears,
I agree- Tyrion needs to prove how smart he is now that they’ve spent the past two seasons making him look stupid. I disagree about Sansa- I think part of her arc is to outsmart Cersei. The show keeps propping her up as being some sort of political genius and they seem to be building up to something. I’d love to see her team of with Tyrion and lead to Cersei’s demise.
I think AeJon will want to hold back the dragons and wait for the NK, but Dany will say “the dead are already here” and fly in with Drogon. She won’t sit back and watch her Dothraki and Unsullied get massacred.
Ryan,
We shall see. Come the dawn, we shall see.
Episodes 4 and 5 could absolutely be filled with the fallout of the long night. Dany realizes she has lost most of her army. Her closest confidant(Jorah) and her military commander(GreyWorm) are Dead. The Northern armies are almost completely decimated as well.
Jon’s parentage becomes known to the survivors(Tyrion,Sansa,Arya,Davos,Jaime, etc). This complicates things even more between Jon and Daenerys. Sansa begins to push for Jon to claim the crown, to his displeasure. She goes behind his back and starts to recruit the remaining Northerners and the Vale to his side. This leads to Dany declaring Sansa a traitor. Forcing a split between her and Jon. She decides to take her dragons and the remaining Unsullied and Dothraki to raze KL to the ground and take the throne once and for all. Except she discovers that she no longer controls Rhaegal, as it has bonded with its rider, Jon. She heads towards KL anyway. At that point, Jon and company decide they have to try and save the people of KL.
I haven’t worked out the rest of my fan fiction, but that was enough for episode 4. Episode 5 is the two Targaryens converging on KL with separate objectives. We get the valonqar and the end of Cersei in this episode.
Anyways, there is plenty to accomplish in episodes 4 and 5 without the AOTD.
Iceman240857,
I hadn’t considered Nymeria & pack getting wightened. That would suck. But I commend your imagination.
One thing we haven’t seen yet that I’ve been sure is inevitable is a known, recurring character not just getting killed but coming back zombified. Though Karsi was a fabulous, she was a one-episode guest star. Young Ned Umber – we hardly knew ya.
So I fear that more than a few of our favorites who’ve been with us for 6 or 7 seasons are going to be wightened.
I also suspect or fear we’ll see something similar to Osha’s description of her encounter with her husband (?) Bruni: she didn’t notice anything amiss until she was close enough to see that his eyes had turned blue. Or something like thst.
I (again) worry that that’s what we were seeing in the trailer snippet showing a freaked-out. bloody-faced Arya irunning down a passageway.
She may have been visiting or checking up on friends or family, when one suddenly turned and attacked her.
Who will be first wightened?
I’m wondering if we’re expecting more characters to die in this episode and season than actually will. It sure doesn’t feel like we are considering everything we’ve heard, read and just gut feelings. Still, maybe we are. To the cast maybe 4-5 of the series long characters is enough for them to feel devastated.? I’m sure it would for us too. It certainly would be a very strange ending to the saga if only a handful of the major players are alive. I guess at this point we’re all more worried about which don’t survive rather than the number though eh…
Your story! Sounds fun.
I would be perfectly happy if Jon, Dany, dragons., NK, AOTD, Jorah,Grey Worm, Qhono, Unsullied, Dothraki – if all of these characters evaporated into thin air. Just pouf! Then Tyrion, Jaime, Davos, Pod, Hound, Brienne, Arya, Sansa, Sam, Missandie, Beric and Edd all gather an army and then went down to KL, linked up with Bronn and proceed to get into arguments and fighting with Cersei, Mountain and her gang. The End.
Ryan,
Switch brienne and theon though.
Clob,
I don’t expect a main character to die in this episode. Theon is a middle of the pack secondary character. Jorah is just below that. Tormund,GreyWorm,Pod, and even Gendry are tertiary characters. The Night King and his army are a bunch of redshirts. We know they are going to be defeated . And not a single tear shall be shed.
The biggest deaths will come in the final two episodes, IMO.
It’s good to see that, as usual, half the fandom is hyping and the other half is bitching.
Hyping, I get, but bitching about an episode we have not seen, based on what we predict might be in it?
Seriously now.
I just wrote a really long comment. Unfortunately one small section included a spoiler that I put under the spoiler code, but I missed deleting a space because it showed up.
Immediately I clicked edit and just tried to remove the spoiler copy altogether, but when I clicked save, it said my edit could not be saved because it was marked as spam. I panicked and tried to send a delete request, but that failed too.
I’m actually glad it was marked as spam – not sure why since I post here pretty regularly, but in this instance I’m super relieved. I just want to apologize to the admins or anyone who saw my post (I think it lived for less than a minute) because the last thing I would ever want to do is expose outside-of-show info to anyone who doesn’t want to see it.
Again, my apologies.
The Night King can experience heavy losses in this battle without being fully beaten. He could lose a bunch of his white walkers, decimating a large portion of his army. Sure, he can raise more dead, as long as they aren’t burning, but it hasn’t been established if he can re-raise dead of a dead white walker. I don’t think the battle will go well for either side, but this isn’t the end of the Night King.
Only big action episode I truly loved was Hardhome. So, unlike many, I’m not excited about the action portion. But I’m definitely ready for the terrible things.
I just really hope that we see more range from Lena than Smirk-sei in the coming episodes. I love her, but I’m so done with the self-satisfied smirk. Give her a great range of emotions, I say.
I believe that they will pass Winterfell, all people hiding in the crypts will remain alive, NK will fly above KL destroying it and every thing will end at Riverrun, Golden Company from south and the remaining troops from north, Melisandre with what support she brings, and the Reeds will catch them there. There has to be a surprise for all of them, like in the battle of bastards.
Ten Bears,
I have the feeling that it will be wightified Gendry chasing Arya – I had it since the trailer aired.
As for the alleged lack of human drama in the face of the Night King, I don’t think you have to worry about it. GOT has always been very good at showing character development in the thick of a battle. Blackwater: Tyrion grew into a leader and the Hound grew to “F… the king”. Watchers on the Wall, Hardhome and Battle of the Basterds were about Jon; Spoils of War – about Jaime and Tyrion and Bronn, Beyond the Wall – about Jon & Dany finding (and almost losing) each other as friends of the battlefield. Dany’s charracter development also happended under extreme conditions: stepping into Drogo’s funeral fire; burnining the slavemasters at Astapor and claiming the Unsullied, learning to fly Drogon during the attack of the Sons of the Harpy, burning the khals, etc. You have a right to like quiter moments – so do I, but I don’t see why those quiter moment should be continuously put against more spectaclular sequences: GOT needs both to be what it is.
This feels like the lead-up to the Red Wedding, except while I know it’s going to hurt, not knowing precisely why adds way too much fear for comfort 😱😱😱 Readying the wine & comfort chocs!
Clob,
Had that exact conversation with my son last night. The biggest character we could lose is Jaime we think. He’s not happy as Tormund is his “must survive” choice and he’s almost at the point of not wanting to watch lol.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
The treat was him going beyond the wall. When the wall stood there he wasn’t really a danger for humanity. He is now. That means the real treat is there since the cliffhanger. Meaning er only got the last hearth massacre and winterfell battle. That feel cheap.
RG,
I hope they go there. I hope the biggest treat will be over at the end of episode 3 and that in 4 and 5 it’s about stopping the nk from building his new army and stopping him at the gods eye. With cersei making things difficult for our heroes. Maybe we even need her because the way go defeat the nk is stored in kings landing.
Mango,
True they had their leaders which embodied that treat. But still in got. The nk is human after all or was. He was a Stark probably or a targ. There’s even a theory he was the former azor ahai.
I don’t want his death to be a battle death. I want his death after that where maybe bran needs to get into his mind. Arya dealing with his last couple of undead max 50. Jon dealing with the nk directly. Dany dealing with cersei to stop cersei from interfering.
I expect vyserion to die if the nk is in the north meaning the nk is on foot again and slower.
Jack Bauer 24,
The could be the villains of episode 4 and 5 but that doesn’t mean the nk needs to be defeated in 3. I think episode 5 will be the nk against our heroes against cersei.
And that grrm analogy doesn’t fit here that some tying to make. They said the nk and the aotd don’t fit the heroes against heroes conflict. But cersei is also like the nk the villain. Nobody wants cersei to win, like nobody wants the nk to win. It’s still good VS evil with cersei.
Dragonbringer,
True, I think a big problem with the dragons is that we don’t see the direwolves, and I don’t blame people the direwolves feel more real (not fully CGI). And the dragons are killing machines with a huge problem that they bring. Look at episode 8×01 how much they have eaten that day and they say, they eaten barely. Damn the whole country will starve while feeding them.
I think the dragons feel like a dangerous creatures, they feel like nucleair weapons, or maybe better a nucleair powerplant. When they do what you want them to do they can help your community, but once something goes wrong, they could be the destruction of your community very easily.
The show depicts them as the weapon of the heroes which feels strange of how much destruction they are capable of.
Jack Bauer 24,
I think he goes to Oldtown first because of 2 reasons:
1. The memory of the world
2. That give us heroes to get to KL unnoticed before the NK arrives there.
And I’m having a question that maybe come into play.
We know, because of the script of beyond the wall that Vyserion is not a wight but a white walker, it stated there that Vyserion become a white walker because the NK touched him. And is the javelin a part that is needed to turn a dead into a WW, or is it just the touch.
How does that work with people, for instance if in episode 3 Arya dies (I choose her because I think she is save, yes she is save right?). And the NK touched her, will she also turn into a white walker?
Or is it with humans only living people. And does the age matter, does it only work with babies or also with people that are adults. Is incest a need for turn them into WW?
What if episode 3 battle ends with all our heroes scattered and fleeing WF and the NK gets hold on one of our heroes. Which he turn into a WW and that’s the episode 3 cliff, seeing him turn one of our heroes which screams at that moment.
Miss Stark,
I think it will costs him a lot of power. I think he can raise the death but it will take time before he can do the next bunch.
Jay Targ,
That’s got to be from episode 3, but I am convinced that they live, Brienne’s story isn’t over until she accepts that she can be desired as a woman, she thinks it’s impossible (Tormand’s ‘admiration’ doesn’t count). It will break my heart if she dies feeling that way, but maybe that is more a book thing, she was happy in the last episode.
Really looking forward to this episode, its the one where you will have to avoid spoilers no social media or news channels or live tv shows of any kind until you have seen it,
Lets just hope its not too dark looking,
NK can’t be defated in E3 because that would mean Cersei, Tywin and the rest were right. It was’t their problem. And WW will be problem for everybody.
Cersei’s smug face when she heard about WW south of the Wall means only one thing. They will come for her as well.
Jack Bauer 24,
She is referring to the dead in the crypts. I thought that was obvious. They mentioned how “safe” the crypts are several times, and once Tyrion was confirmed to be down there, it was almost a guarantee: the dead are gonna rise in the crypts and give Tyrion, Sansa, Varys and more, hell.
It was so obvious in fact, even some of my casual GOT friends suggested this might happen. Like so casual they don’t know any secondary characters names.
ep 3 is the battle they will lose against the night king, that is certain
4 would be the escape journey and re group and then the entering of the red woman and others to help, while cersai gets news and makes her cunning plans
5 and 6 i expect the defeat of the night king through the red woman, jon and sams books, the golden company fight, major political issues the dany attack to get her throne, sacrifice / cleganbowl and where we lose some main characters.
ending will be bitter sweet they will win, but at what cost, no dany no jamie, no cersai, no throne, no night king, though maybe he wont be defeated but retreat. that might be interesting .
I feel that Briennes story has reached its peak in regards to being accepted and respected for who she wants to be. Her heart felt desire has been to be a Knight, to be everything a Knight is supposed to be, honorable, just, true. To be accepted, respected and admired by the men in the room and knighted by the Jamie of all people, I think, completes her personal development and acceptance. I also think she will survive and write Jamie’s deeds as others have conjectured. Kingsguard are unmarried for life, don’t see why Brienne needs a physical relationship to complete her. That’s not her.
Kevin1989,
Hero vs Hero is Jon vs Dany. That can’t happen unless the Night King is defeated in episode 3.
I wouldn’t feel this strongly about wanting the WW threat to be over after this episode if there were more episodes remaining, but there’s not. We are about 75 percent through the extended 13 episode final season. Do people really think the WW won’t be defeated by that point in the final book?
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Finally! Someone remembers this is episode 13 of the final season! So many posts of “shortened seasons” when in reality we are given an extended final season with longer episodes.
D&D and everyone involved in the show have shown continually how invested they are in the product and fans as well. However the story ends I will always be thankful to have been around during this ride. The rich, varied commentary and theories on this site, the emotional involvement with fictional tv characters, have been a unique and unheralded experience for me. I have never waited in bated breath for a tv show in my life as with Got. Half of me is filled with impatience while the other half dreads the ending of an event which will soon be over and, more than likely, never experienced again.
We all have our hopes and wishes as to how the story ends. I wish you all good fortune in the viewing to come!
Sigh. As I try to strum up some personal interest in the action bits. Let me speculate about the upcoming:
I think we all believe that NK will be defeated, so that takes quite a bit of the interest off. I speculate that the AOTD will burn then we will see a more individual hunt for the NK and WW. The valryian swords may have some special role.
There might be some story developing about the exact techniques needed to kill the NK. Perhaps this is where the character stories may be important – for example, if the swords held by Jaime and Brienne need to be used together.
As for the upcoming deaths, I suppose the persons that are not needed can be cleared away. Jaime and Tyrion and Cersei will survive until the end of the story – at least Ep 5. Well, at least we know that Bran needs Jaime. I am already on record saying that Jaime goes all the way through the series.
I used to think that Jorah may not make it – but now he has a valyrian sword as well. He may be useful.
Daenerys could die at the end of this first phase of the war. Jon can ride his dragon to fight NK’s Viserion. Jon also has a Valyrian sword. She is redundant once mass fighting bits are done and we are just after the WW and NK.
Action and horror…hmmm.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
It would also be unnecessarily repetitive if the second half of this season was basically just a repeat of the first – preparing for a battle, trying to figure out how to defeat the Night King, former enemies becoming friends, etc.
And it’d render Cersei’s double-cross basically redundant and leave us with a repeat of Season 7’s main plot of trying to find a way to get Cersei onside against the dead.
Better that they end the White Walker plot while they have everything they could possibly need to do so in place, and then move on to resolving a Jon/Dany/Cersei power struggle for the future of Westeros, in my opinion.
Ten Bears,
A time jump at the end, with a pregnant Arya sailing west of the West.
In my opinion this isn’t really a good comparison, because the WW have only just arrived on the show. We aren’t 75% of the way into the Long Night, it hasn’t even properly begun yet.
I feel pretty certain the WW will breach the Wall by the end of Winds of Winter, or at least I fully expect that to be George’s plan.
So at that point, yeah, they may well be defeated 75% of the way into ADoS. But given that on the show the Wall wasn’t brought down until the very end of Season 7, I really doubt we’re just going to get 1 episode of the White Walkers.
It would have been a completely different story if the Wall had fallen at the end of Season 6. As it stands, it would be ridiculous for the WW to have been built up since the very first scene of the show just to get 3 episodes of them actually being in Westeros, with only 1 episode featuring them in any prominent way.
It’s far more likely that the human drama and the supernatural threat will intermingle and sort of run side by side over the course of Episodes 4 and 5, with the NK finally being defeated near the end of Episode 5.
That still leaves an 80 minute final episode to wrap the rest up.
Direcat,
Jaime and Brienne are a human couple in a long deep love story.
There will be sex.
Yes, but that is not the last time she will be happy.
There will be sex.
Ten Bears,
😂😂😂😂😂
Actually, it’s episode 10 of the “13-episode final season”, if you want to look at it that way.
Oh, so Daenerys can just go ahead and die fighting in this battle at Winterfell.? One of the two primary, main protagonists from the very start of the books and show is going to have her story simply end without any kind or resolution or reason for existence at all? She’s “redundant” now because Jon has the claim and a dragon? Well shit, I’m glad I read all the books and watched so I could find out her story ends because of reduntcy. 😒
Sandor and Arya’s travels V2 with a tiny ninja assassin in tow who calls Sandor grandpa (lose Gendry) would be a show I would watch!!
In reply to your theorising though, I don’t think it’s necessary for Arya to be pregnant for her to settle down with Gendry and to go back on what she told Ned. All of us said things and thought things about our futures when we were 12. No one should be held hostage by words they spoke as a pre-teen. If Arya loves Gendry and wants to settle down with him, she shouldn’t be judged by words she spoke as a child. I would find it a very satisfying ending if they settled down together and built a family (though I doubt we would see the kids part on screen), perhaps with him as the legitimised Lord of Storms End. Arya’s life has been one long horror show; she deserves happiness and stability.
I am convinced Cersei will die before she has her baby, but I do feel Daenerys will have Jon’s baby – I’m bucking the trend though on thinking (at the moment – I change my mind every few days!) they will both live. From season 1, her childlessness has been an unfinished plot point and in the books certainly, it is made clear that she is miscarrying and her fertility has returned – so it must be an important plot point later on in the story and as we know that she and Jon are going to come together in the books as GRRM told one of the writers of GOT (can’t remember who) that it call comes down to Jon and Dany in the end as the central arc of the story. So I can imagine she will have his baby in the books too. They foreshadowed it (bluntly) last season and there is enough conflict to ensure it would not be the happy ever after that might make the ending too sweet as Dany and Jon have plenty of sources for conflict now. Also, GRRM loves the Targaryens. He has devoted the last few years of his life to them (I am mid-read through Fire and Blood and it is very good!). I just cannot see the world of ASOIAF with them all wiped out. I don’t think he would do that to his favourite family. I think he wants to reinvent them, which is why I personally feel Jon will be on the throne at the end.
Nick20,
I misspoke thanks!
Cheer up!
If she dies – She dies a hero of the story having fulfilled her role as the savior of Westeros. She brought her armies and saved everyone settling a debt that the Targs owed the Westerosi for their invasion and abuse. This is an excellent wrap up for her.
You can only be discontent if you can only accept a purpose for her that is ruling Westeros. What would be the interesting thing there in terms of story?
But I am not writing the story. What the crap do I know? I am just watching like you are. If I could tell the future, I would occupy myself being rich!
Not saying I would mind, just that I’m good if this is her end. But if a man is fulfilled with Kingsguard as a goal, why isnt that enough for a woman?
Considering GRRM says the whole story has been about building up to Jon and Dany coming together and the enormous info they’re sitting on (that is totally unresolved) about Jon being the true heir to the Targaryen throne, I think you may be letting your dislike for Dany’s character speak when you say she is redundant after the fighting is over and done. Dany will definitely survive this battle. Narratively speaking, I would say there is a 0% chance that Jon and Dany are going to die in this battle. Too much of the drama that you seek depends on them and what happens with the throne (or if there will be one). That damned iron chair has been the biggest source of drama in this show; currently there are three players in play for it (whether you like it or not, Jon!). Cersei, who is illegitimately sitting on it, Dany and Jon. They’re not going to get rid of any of those key players this early in the game.
I do believe something will happen at Dragonstone before the credits roll at the end of E6, based on the brief teaser ‘Dragonstone’ HBO released a few months ago. Unless it was released to throw us all off? Which doesn’t make sense, as they also released the ‘Aftermath’ teaser around the same time which, although perhaps a tad overly-dramatic in its post-apocalyptic nature and hints that many of the show’s protagonists will fall, does indicate that Winterfell will be destroyed in E3, which is highly likely given what we know at this stage.
Ramsay's 20th Good Man,
Exactly. Bottom line, the heart of this story has never been about the White Walkers, and certainly not the Night King, who GRRM has said is not and will not be a character in his books.
People seem to be more worried that wrapping up the AOTD story too soon would negatively impact the series. My point, as I’ve been stating, is that the continued existence of that threat will shortchange the human story. People really want Cersei to die or be consumed with a battle against zombies? All of the concerns of the drama between Jon and Sansa last season and Sansa/Jon/Dany this season being forced would be multiplied times 100 if we are supposed to believe the Jon/Stark/Dany drama would be happening as they retreat and are in the middle of a battle trying to still defeat the NK.
So, if you’re asking me which would be more disappointing, shortchanging the human story to serve the WW story would be it. I’d rather shortchange the zombies. We know they are going to be defeated. Get on with it.
mau,
You’re absolutely right.
sellsword,
And 4 maybe Howland Reed?
Tyrion Pimpslap,
There’s where you’re wrong. That can happen if the nk is still alive. Even more if he’s still alive. Because the drama will be more layered and more dangerous. And more exciting. And even show us how far they are willing to go with their own ambition in the face of the greatest treat they are facing.
And no the ww treat is not defeated in the book by that point. Grrm first outline is the first clue to that. And I except them to be defeated around 200 pages before the end of the books. Meaning around 90 minutes before the end. We have 79 minutes final where everything non related to the ww can happen.
Did you mean Saruman? Or the Leader of the Nazgul? In the movies, I don’t recall Sauron communicating with Gandalf directly. We only ever ‘saw’ Sauron when he dueled with Gil-Galad and Isildur in a flashback, didn’t we?
And she knows the dead are in the crypts already how? They are out on a cliff a pretty good distance from WF.
If it didn’t in these 69 episodes, it won’t in last 4 either.
It’s going to be dark. I watch with the lights off, so that helps. I also have my screen configured for GoT. I have the brightness and black levels at a certain setting that has helped. I originally couldn’t see anything in the Tormund/Beric scene from the premiere, but now I can see them just fine. Unless the battle spills over to the following morning, the episode should all be at night.
Kevin1989,
True. If you think there is no way to have exciting human drama while the Night King is there… well, you lack imagination.
Kevin1989,
Like I’ve said, for me it would all seem forced. Even if Daenerys were bat shit crazy, I wouldn’t buy that she would be squabbling about the iron throne while in the middle of a battle and while still figuring out how they are going to defeat the NK.
This is just my opinion. I’ll accept whatever they give us, but for me, I’m ready to be done with the AOTD. We’ll find out tomorrow which way they go with the story. I think my opinion, which seems to be in the vast minority, has a far greater chance of happening than what people think. I’d say it’s close to being 50/50.
Ramsay's 20th Good Man,
And having cersei to be the one who was right all along? If the ww are defeated cersei was right to assume she should stay south instead of helping.
It also make sure cersei win the throne. Because 40.000 soldiers against maybe a couple of 100 survivors isn’t going to be win by our heroes. Or they need to go with the old super hero movie move. Winning an unwinnable battle (twice because the battle against the ww is unwinnable) it will make the end of got a cop out and mainstream.
And as stated the second part with the nk is not battle based it will be something else. No point of having 2 battles involving him heavily.
And people need to think more about there is no time there is enough time. Look at for instance dany season 1 story. That was less then an hour total. Same with her season 3 story. She took over 2 cities and it was done in less then 60 minutes of screentime. We have 3x 80 minutes after episode 3 meaning we could have 4 storylines worth of what happened before in 1 season. Even some stories were a total of less then 40 minutes back in the first seasons.
Is this because I said the F word in my last post?
Moderation abyss is killing me. What a waste of time
mau,
That’s not a fair comparison. For 66 of those 69 episodes, the WW were behind the Wall. And even then, I do believe the mere existence of the WW threat made some of the Jon/Sansa/Northern Lords and Sansa/Dany drama ring hollow. But at least then I could tell myself that Sansa and the Northern Lords simply didn’t grasp the threat of the AOTD. That won’t be the case any longer.
Nick20,
+1 and the final can be heavily on dany and Jon drama. Because I think cersei will also be defeated in episode 5. Meaning 80 minutes of drama with them. All human in the end.
Che,
Depends. Didn’t Emilia say she did some crazy shit this season but that she can’t explain what that crazy shit was. She did some scenes but she did not play dany or something like that. What is Arya takes her face or more they way I see it. She becomes a white walker. That make sense with the: hoping people will like her character at the end. Because many people can’t deveriate dsny from that moment on. Same with Locke in lost. The actor played the man in black in season 6 not Locke. But many people were under the impression it was Locke.
No I don’t think Emilia will be last seen in episode 3 I think till the end. But that doesn’t mean that dany will be there till the end.
I’m just so scared for S8E3. I’m going to be a total wreck. A puddle of emotion, unable to function for 12 or 24 hours.
The previous episode was just so BEAUTIFUL, so perfect, and left me an emotional wreck because every character who had a nice interaction is marked for death. This is GoT.
I’m most concerned about the fate of Ser Brienne of Tarth – she achieved her life goal, so that’s usually a death sentence in GoT… but just maybe, maybe…
She and Jaime had that spiritual connection, soulmates, when he knighted her… OK, so stupid Jaime jinxed it in S5, “I want to die in the arms of the woman I love”. That’s obviously Brienne, right? But Jaime’s story is inevitably entangled with Cersei – with book hints that he’ll kill her, maybe die himself in the act. So Brienne can’t die before that, right? RIGHT??
I’m just so worried about all the character interactions, little moments of happiness that we were given in S8E2, that S8E3 is going to be absolutely savage. Rip our hearts into shreds and leave us gibbering emotional wrecks for the next few days. The Red Wedding will have nothing on this carnage.
I was already an emotional wreck after S8E2, how am I going to survive the next episode? Why do I even watch this show to hurt myself?
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Well this is what the story is about. You can like it or not, but as GRRM said. writing is not a democracy.
The problem with NK being gone in the North is that it proves that Cersei, Joffrey, Tywin and everyone else in the South was right. That wasn’t their problem. There was no reason to care about AOTD.
The South should be punished for their ignorance. And they will be.
Well I’ve tried twice now to write a much more thorough speculation here… but alas, they ended up in an empty vault somewhere in Essos. So without all the supporting ideas- I’ll just put this out there.
I think what Sapo is referring to with a 3part, beginning, middle, and end arc to eps 3,4, and 5- begins with a battle for WF, ends with some battle for or around KL, with a retreat/regrouping/potential showdown in the riverlands. Maybe the Trident, God’s Eye, or Riverrun. Pyke may also come into play in act 2. Seems pretty straightforward that this will all include human and those formerly known as human.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
For me defeat of the ww will be short changing the human drama. Having the ww treat still active with humans being selfish with their own goals and making it harder for Jon and Co to defeat them and at the same time they are forced to defeat humans the drama will be bigger. Jon will be in conflict with himself. Doing everything to stop that conflict. He is even forced to take drastic action like burning the red keep to defeat the ww.
And no matter what defeat or no defeat I think 3 till 6 will all be master pieces.
mau,
+1 people tend to forget that in treat the drama can be bigger. Look at lotr the best drama was when the treat of the orcs were biggest. And more important they are forced to get to a faster conclusion. And what will happen if dany and Jon are forced to get to a conclusion faster. Yes, it will explode to more drama.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Im done with the battle with the army of the dead after that. But I assume the nk will have a long time to get his army back making room for the human drama. For instance maybe they have 6 months time for it. They are moving to Cersei in those 6 months. And then the end with the nk could be something like the gods eye instead of a battle. I think even you would like to see that.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
As you stated now. The ww were behind the wall for 67 episodes.69 episodes of buildup where the treat is small but stated once they go behind the wall it’s real. And then we get one scene in episode 1 which not even future them. And then the next moment they are gone.
I can see the Memes already started.
Kevin1989,
Yeah. There is no way that moral of the story is – ” if the world faces apocalypse, the best thing you should do is betray those who are fighting to stop it. And Jon Snow was an idiot this entire time for trying to unite everyone”.
Story will punish Cersei and Euron and everyone else in the South. And Miguel said that E3-E5 are one big story, so that means that the NK won’t be gone tomorrow.
Kevin1989,
I don’t think there were any stories or quotes that spoke in those terms, but that some of the fandom interpreted her words to mean that she plays someone else. I think the story of her playing her ‘last scene as Daenerys’ before the end of filming was one that started that rumour (when in likelihood, as they film out of order, she probably filmed her last scene chronologically in the show before she was done filming). I don’t remember anything about her playing two parts at all – I think that would have been an enormous spoiler. She did say her last scene as Dany: “f*cked me up . . . knowing that is going to be a lasting flavour in someone’s mouth of what Daenerys is.” This could mean she is totally changed by the end and goes out in a bad way, but it could also mean she was just completely devastated she wouldn’t be with her character any more and that final scene is the end of her character’s growth etc.
I don’t know if she will be around till the last moment of the last episode, but I do know they’re not going to kill her off in episode 3 seeing as she is such a central figure to the story and we have zero closure on her yet, in fact, her story is just getting less and less resolved with this new Jon reveal. I also doubt she’ll become a WW or that Arya will wear her face (to what end?). I think if she’s going out, she’s going out as herself. I’m 50/50 over whether she becomes an antagonist. Pre-season 8, I would have said no, but the past two episodes have cast doubt for me. I wonder if after the AOTD we will get Jon VS Dany. I hope not.
Che,
Septa Unella is the one having a baby. Cersei is too old, and she wants an indestructible monster baby this time around, after all her other children were killed. In my mind, Frankengregor’s baby would be dead and full of graveworms, like Dany’s supposedly was.
I too think Dany’s story needs to address the pregnancy issue. It also needs to address the rest of the MMR prophecy and her wish to see Drogo and Rhaego again. Could be tied into “Cersei’s plans for the dragon queen”?
Fairly certain there will be a time jump at the end with a pregnancy, but whether this will be Dany or Arya, not sure. Leaning towards Arya.
GRRM never said anything of the sort. It would be a major book spoiler.
Kevin1989,
What’s wrong with Cersei being right? I don’t see the problem with that.
And by your logic, if the survivors of the Battle of Winterfell are going to be so insignificant in number, then why would Cersei care about them any more than she did before they got their asses handed to them?
If the good guys lose in tomorrow’s episode then that means that dragons, a weirwood god, all the Valyrian steel and dragonglass in Westeros, and a gargantuan army couldn’t defeat the AotD.
So how exactly do you expect them to be defeated two episodes later? By Euron and the Golden Company?
I’ve heard people suggest that there’s going to be some magical shortcut to defeating the Night King, like flying Mount Doom.. sorry.. the Land of Always Winter to smash the altar we saw in Season 4, or something ludicrous like that. And I honestly have no idea how anybody could think that would make for better and more logical drama than our heroic band of warriors defeating the Army of the Dead, at great personal and military cost, and then turning their attention to Cersei and King’s Landing.
If Dany still has Drogon and a few thousand Dothraki/Unsullied left, I don’t see why she couldn’t give Cersei a run for her money. Perhaps they’d even have some assistance from Melisandre’s reinforcements from Volantis. Perhaps the people of King’s Landing will rise up against her.
And we know there’s going to be another major battle later in the season. Are you suggesting that that will be to defeat Cersei, so that they can then defeat the Night King, but not in a battle because they’re going to defeat him another way? That’d be a rather confused and redundant course of events.
Sister Kisser,
It’s nothing to do with sweary f-words. WotW isn’t prudish that way. The mods use them themselves.
For some inexplicable reason, some of my comments have disappeared into cyberspace. Some have got stuck in moderation forever and never published. No offensive language or opinions, no too many links, no anything. Sometimes things just fail. It’s nothing personal.
Also, a comment disappearing into cyberspace gives me time to rethink and re-formulate my point better, so it’s kind of a blessing.
Frustrating, though.
http://time.com/4910521/game-of-thrones-jon-snow-daenerys-targaryen/
Kevin1989,
Hmm. If the NK heads to KL, he just needs a few sweeps through with the dragon to turn the entire city into a death trap and end up with a million more on his side. So I don’t think it will be 40,000 KL fighters against 100 survivors.
The new KL undead army can be easily destroyed when the NK is killed, whether there are 40,000 or a million… so it doesn’t even have to be an epic battle, just a glorified duel in the end. We only need one hero to kill the NK.
Kevin1989,
I don’t remember hearing about Emilia saying that, but I think you’re on the right track with Arya and her FM skills – which need to be used in an epic manner somehow during the endgame.
The other possibility is the ToJ/MMR tent birthing scenes and the speculation of hocus pocus there. Dany’s ability to have children still needs to be resolved.
Is this the quote you mean? “It f***ed me up. Knowing that is going to be a lasting flavour in someone’s mouth of what Daenerys is… I’m doing all this weird s***. You’ll know what I mean when you see it.”
Since 801 and 802 was released early by HBO distributors (DirectTV Now and Prime Video Germany), I don’t feel confident that the same won’t happen with 803. So with 803 potentially have major spoilers compared to the first 2 episodes, that is worrisome. Will probably have to have social media blackout tomorrow. Luckily I saw Endgame on Thursday because right after the movie I was reading the comments on an Xbox article on twitter and people were posting Endgame spoilers. They are everywhere. I expect the same for 803.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I think some people simply can’t reconcile themselves to the possibility that this show won’t end with the big, spectacular, all-encompassing, continent-wide conflict that they thought the show (and books) would end with.
Like you, I believe it could go either way. But I don’t understand the notion that them being defeated at Winterfell would be a huge disappointment or make no sense.
Everything is set up for them to be defeated and then move onto the human drama of the conflict over the throne. If that’s how it goes then it’ll make perfect sense. If not, then I guess we’ll have to see how successfully they weave the different aspects of conflict.
What?
ShameShameShame,
If the NK’s dragon ‘burns’ people can he raise them? Is there anything left of them to raise?
Che,
Someone said “[GRRM] said something: That it really is all about Dany and Jon.” which is not what you posted.
It was a follow on from my post a few posts before that one (replying to TB), where I initially brought it up and said it was one of the writers (it was actually one of the directors) whom GRRM told. Apologies for my unintentional misleading wording. I guess I assume that people read through the posts till the end, because that’s what I usually do, so I didn’t feel the need to repost the whole long-winded version and went with the short-hand GRRM says (in this case to a director of GOT), he’s still saying it regardless.
If you want to think one of the directors of GOT, who has worked with GRRM, is lying about what he was told by GRRM, then that’s your prerogative, but I personally believe what he says to new true.
Che,
She stated: In Season 8, I’m doing all this weird shit. You’ll know what I mean when you see it.
I’m wonder what she meant with weird shit. This probably is not from the first 2 episodes.
ShameShameShame,
OH my. What if the baby’s first word is Shame!
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Read the gods eye theory and you know what I mean. And looking at filming it’s almost a certainty that the nk will survive episode 3.
I think Jon and dany are forced to burn the red keep with the dragons. And that the nk will go to oldtown so our heroes are there first in kings landing.
I’m not seeing it that the nk will begone after episode 3.
And yes I think magic is a part of defeating him like it was part of his creation.
Yes he did. He told D&D so during S2 filming. Don’t remember the exact words but it was something like ”in the end everything is about Jon and Dany coming together”.
I think little she-bear unknowingly saves her own life by refusing to go down into the crypts.
D & D do an awful lot of fan tributes so I hope it doesn’t get too gruesome. Like if the little girl that reminded Davos of Shireen…if she dies I hope Davos dies too because that would just be too much for that poor guy. Doesn’t he have a wife and other sons in the book far off that he could return too? Could Sam the slayer possibly save Gilly and little Sam again? What could Daenerys possibly do to win the love and respect of the North, though I thought they were laying groundwork for her to concede as she gives up the thrown in her vision (the look she has when she sees the exchange between Brienne and Sansa and Sansa and Theon). I think Sansa is too boring to die.
If the NK survives this episode, it tells me we are getting the Nissa Nissa ending. Which, in that case, the show really did a poor job of not hanging that gun. IMO.
I laugh at people who think NK and AOTD will be defeated in the next episode, lol. The living lose and are forced to retreat south, bringing Cersei into the fold. There’s gonna be plenty of battles and human drama for everyone. People need to chill. Sapo said himself that ep3 won’t be just a battle but human interactions during fighting. E4-6 won’t be any different.
What does the time of NK’s defeat have to do with Nissa Nissa happening?
steff666,
Because it will mean that what they had wasn’t enough to defeat him. That more was required. It will mean his defeat will be at or near the end, and it will likely require the ultimate sacrifice.
The context is it having to do with humor within Dany’s story. Here’s the quote from the original source.
And we have seen some “Clarke-ish” humor in the first two episodes. Who knows if there will be more.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
The trailer for this season literally proves it. Theres a shot of a forlorn Jon and Dany at Dragonstone. Meaning WF was taken over by the dead and they had to retreat. And as long as they are both alive, the war vs NK isnt over.
The AOTD winning the battle would be the end. It would mean the living lose their entire army, who would then be added to the dead’s numbers. It would mean all the dragon glass is gone, it means 2 dragons weren’t enough. It means the whole of the North falls and joins the dead. What happens then? They flee south, somehow avoiding the AOTD? What can Cersei’s army of 20,000 do, all without dragonglass? Also it would mean no room for the Dany v Jon drama.. also it would be seriously tiring if after the biggest battle on TV it holds no real sastifying conclusion.
No. This is about preventing the Long Night, the living must win now or not at all because it simply doesn’t add up otherwise.
Possibly, but even if it does, it doesn’t have to be Nissa Nissa.
Kevin1989,
The God’s Eye hasn’t even been mentioned on the show, as far as I remember. Certainly not to any degree that the general audience would care about its significance or sudden introduction. People looking for some grand symbolism are likely to be disappointed. For reference, just hear the hokey explanations offered by Sam and Bran for the Night King’s actions last episode.
If there was some deep magical meaning and means to kill the Night King that’s key to victory then it should’ve been established ages ago, like when the Three-Eyed Raven and Benjen and Mance were still around to expand on the mythology.
I kept up with most of the filming spoilers. I can’t remember anything that proved how long the Night King would survive. Maybe I missed something.
And this attack on Oldtown, will that be a wholly CGI affair or did they build a set? Will Jim Broadbent be returning? Or have they cast a whole new bunch of maesters for this sequence? Or will we only hear about it happening off-screen? It seems a rather far-fetched turn of events, even given Bran/Sam’s little speech about eradicating the world’s memories. That’s one hell of a detour.
This all seems very convoluted.
This is how: https://i.redd.it/94p1n3w8u1u21.png
Ryan,
How would a shot of Jon and Dany at Dragonstone prove that they lose the battle?
Are they not allowed to visit Dragonstone if they win?
Did anyone notice how Euron looked at Dany last season when she flew in on Drogon? Here is the actor’s latest comment from an interview https://tvline.com/2019/04/26/the-flash-season-6-spoilers-john-diggle-jr-cast/:
So we asked Pilou Asbæk about the sailor’s true intentions. Spoiler alert: Because this is Thrones, we didn’t get a ton of info — but Asbæk was really charming nonetheless. “When I did those scenes with Lena [Headey], you have to do them as honest as possible,” he explains. “When he says, ‘I always wanted to marry the most incredible woman in the world, so here I am,’ he means it… until the moment he meets Daenerys and he wants to be with her…. He’s got great taste.”
Yeah, that would be cool 🙂
I doubt if we’ll get Ice Spiders (and we know there will be no elephants either), but what would be a cracker if the dead Starks buried in the crypts are reanimated!
Even better would be a wightified Littlefinger chasing Ayra through the crypts with a raspy voice saying, “I did warn you not to trust me!” 😀
It could be. Though I’m assuming WOTW said it’s from episode 4 because Nutter was the director of this scene. Which would suggest the AOTD is still around in episode 4. But I guess we’ll see if the info was correct or not.
Ryan,
There were no shots past episode 3 in the trailer, according to Entertainment Weekly. And besides, them being at Dragonstone doesn’t mean they lost and have fled.
From what I understood, Battle of Winterfell doesn’t end in ep3, but actually spills into the next one.
steff666,
that wasn’t how it was phrased. “It’s about Jon and Dany” which is the hearsay of what he said, is very different from “everything is about Jon and Dany coming together” and “the secret Targaryen issue they need to tackle” which were the paraphrases in this comment section.
I don’t doubt he said something about Jon and Dany, but he said nothing confirming Jon’s parentage or Jon being a Targ or even a romance or the importance of a meeting between Jon and Dany – because those would be HUGE book spoilers.
that’s all I meant 🙂
steff666,
That doesn’t address his points, though. The AOTD would grow exponentially if he wins at Winterfell. And Gods know how large it would swell if they made it to the Riverlands. The climactic battle would be even bigger than episode 3, and quite frankly, we know this is the biggest battle in the season. They spent 70+ days filming it.
I’m prepared and fine with being wrong. But by the sounds of it, some of you aren’t prepared to accept that your expectations could be wrong.
All living in WF are equipped with Valyrian steel/dragonglass, and we have two fire breathing dragons. The dead killed by those won’t be re-raised. The living who die shall be burned as well, seems like a job for Jon and/or Dany.
I couldn’t agree more. In my opinion the entire story has always been about the human drama. George has said multiple times that he really doesn’t like absolute good vs absolute evil, which is what the story becomes if the AOTD is the final obstacle. Cersei at least has some shades of grey with her, not to mention the potential conflict between Aegon and Dany.
Sapochnik For President!
I didn’t state that the quote referenced the Targaryen secret – I referenced the part that said the driving force of the story has been about bringing them together and that it boils down to them in the end – which is what was said to a seasoned GOT director by GRRM himself (so less hearsay and more someone we know worked with GRRM quoting him). When I was mentioning the information Jon and any are sitting on, that was my thoughts on why they couldn’t be killed off in episode 3. Just to clarify. I probably should have put another ‘considering’ in front of the ‘and the info Jon and Dany are sitting on…’ to make that clear.
Winterfell battle guide https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/27/game-of-thrones-winterfell-battle-list/
That doesn’t prove that all all. All is proves is that Dany and Aegon had to go to Dragonstone. In another thread I posted what I think is a plausible theory why with the NK being defeated. I think NK will fall, but Winterfell will be almost completely destroyed in the process.
JSchmeh,
But if the NK and the AOTD are defeated, wouldn’t they stay with the other survivors in the north? Jon would, wouldn’t be? Unless he is fighting for Dany against Cersei like he pledged he would.
The NK being deafeated in NEXT Episode is retarded. Thats a fact not an opinion.
You dont built a big threat, the BIGGEST, since the First scene of the First Episode, and build ALL the Seasons as the true problem for they cant even pass the North, its Just the most idiot thing EVER.
The most poorly write possible, the WW in the endereço was Just a Lost of time, nothing Else.
In the books the Will advance AT LEAST att the trident and for sure they Will Go furrher.
Thats It.
I expect the majority of Dothraki and Unsullied to go down. I don’t expect any main characters to die though (AeJon, Dany, Arya, Sansa, Tyrion, Bran) except for possibly Jaime. As for the secondary characters, I only feel 100% confident that Theon and Beric will die. I think it’s 75% likely that Jorah and Edd will die. I’m 50/50 on Tormund, Grey Worm, Missandie, Davos, Varys, Bronn. I think Sandor, Sam, Brienne, Gilly are safe.
Edit: I think Drogon and Rhaegal are safe right now as well. Ghost is 50/50, but the direwolves are unfortunately an afterthought now so I wouldn’t be surprised if Ghost goes. They can make up for the direwolves shortcomings though with an epic scene of them tomorrow night.
If it happens the way I imagine (and I may be completely wrong) then I think Winterfell will be destroyed, meaning that the survivors will need to relocate. Drangonstone is an ideal location to do this. Don’t forget that at this point all the people in the North have an interest in removing Cersei.
Aegon not only pledged himself to Dany, but I also think his identity and claim won’t stay a secret between 4 people. It’s going to get out and there will be some who want him to press his claim (Sam, Sansa, Arya to name a couple.)
Jack Hamm,
Arya! Girl, I love ya! But… you need to stay clothed until receiving some of Doreah’s lessons in seduction! I blushed( and so did many others), covered my eyes, shuddered and cringed mightily while watching you and Gendry “go at it.” I simply could not believe what was being shown. Williams said when she initially read this scene she took it to be a joke. Ain’t it the truth.
jesus christ on a pogo stick, did i really read this?
please give me the link to your youtube channel with the video tutorials on professional seduction!
talvikorppi,
My dear Winter Raven, have you really missed the gib reveal? Jaime won’t be the valonquar: it will be Tyrion. B. Cogman couldn’t spell it more literally, just rewatch the exchange between Tyrion and Jaime on the battlemens: Tyrion is talking about Cersei but Jaime spots Brienne and drops the conversation. It’s clear that for Jaime Cersei is already forgotten and dead at this point: he seeks his YOUNGER MORE BEAUTIFUL lady-knight. Meanwhile, Tyrion is still fixed on Cersei and contemplates killing her after his death. IMO, that’s a clear foreshadowing and, although I don’t think that Tyrion is gonna kill Cersei as a wight, it’s possible that this kill will claim his life. Dany has mentioned that he chose Tyrion to be her Hand, because he could be ruthless, when necessary. So, now I thinking that Tyrion will somehow find a way to turn the Night King against Cersei and King’s Landing playing her plan against her. “Let the monsters kill each other, we’ll deal with what’s left” is not a bad plan after all. It’s just that neither Jon-Aegon, nor Dany are gonna be OK with sacrificing 1 million lives and Tyrion might pay for that with everything he holds dear.
As for Brienne, she should survive at least till Ep 5. If you watch “The Game Revealed” for Ep 2, you can notice that
Lol,
Yeah. That’s just your opinion. Inelegantly stated as well. The show isn’t the books. They have a budget and limited time. If the WW are defeated at Winterfell instead of the Trident, it changes very little. What of significance is between Winterfell and the Trident that is meaningful in the show?
Actually, that is exactly what an opinion is. My OPINION is that it would be retarded to have the AOTD defeat the “largest army the world has ever seen”, 2 dragons and the 3ER – only to be defeated by a smaller army, with no weapons designed to kill them or some “magical” way that hasn’t been mentioned or foreshadowed at all.
Not to mention the fact that Cersei is already aware of the threat and she chose not to join, but now somehow she is just going to decide to join the battle on Aegon and Danny’s side.
It’s not a fact, it’s your opinion. Over the past seven seasons, personally I’ve felt the story is about far more than the AOTD. That’s very apparent simply from watching the first two episodes of this season. Shame you aren’t invested in the whole story.
Or Lord Baelish and Varys, now that would be a sight to see….
Che,
Ah I see, I read it like GRRM had confirmed RLJ and Jon’s Targ parentage… which I know would have been an earth-shattering fandom revelation!
All is well, proceed lol
Jack Bauer 24,
It just struck me that you named 20 characters, and the average viewer would know all of them and probably 20 more on top of that. As incredible homage to the books/show when you think about it.
Good list, also!
Tyrion Pimpslap,
You are taking this Nissa-Nissa stuff way too literally. Dany is being turned into a “flaming sword” right in front of your eyes with Jon’s prarentage revelation. If Jon-Aegon is the true heir to the IT and the PTWP, her role is diminishing to a tool of victory – a “sword” formed of dragons, armies, etc. Whether she will accept it and how she will accept it is yet to be seen: being a sacrifice is not a fun, and for the moment she’s protesting against it with all her heart, but I don’t think it’s gonna last on the background of overall destruction.
As for the Night King, there are many ways how his undoing can go. I had a theory that the key would be finding out his real human name, cause that’s an archetypical solution for undoing spells. Arya with hes skills of giving the gift of death should also come into play, etc. But one way or another, the show had a slighty altered version of the Lightbringer prophesy (someone is supposed to draw it from fire) and never mentioned Nissa-Nissa or anything similar.
Kevin1989,
Threat. Not treat. A treat is giving someone a snack.
Sorry to be that guy, but I’ve seen you make the mistake a couple of times.
Ryan,
Jon and Dany may go to Dragonstone for many reasons: planning attack or defence of King’s Landing and/or some negotiations with Cersei are legit guesses, too.
It makes me wonder though… what does the Night King eat?
(Is it “Whatever he likes.”?)
The hot mess that is this comments section really does prove the story needs an ending soon, lol.
Please note that the Winterfell stand will be the first time the AotD/WWs have attacked a force that is entirely prepared and expecting them. The NK may survive to engage in further virtual and metaphysical skirmishes with characters we care about, but the AotD is nothing but a pyramid scheme force that will collapse once their “commanders” in the open field succumb to the ballistic obsidian onslaught and Valyrian steel jabs and slashes.
Although I fear the casualties will be tremendous, the Dothraki horsemen/marksmen of the apocalypse could be up for the task…if the vicious fog doesn’t screw everything up.
Although I hope Bran, Tyrion, Sam and the weirnet provide significant cerebral contributions to the endgame, the “trident battle” that you reference may consist of a “newly recruited” AotD under the NK’s control…and that may be where Dany, Jon and the NK may have their final aerial melee.
kathy,
Yes, I noticed that and I have a feeling that this will come into play somehow. Maybe, Euron will show up in Dragonstone after Dany returns there? He may take her captive somehow or offer an alliance, though I don’t think Dany would be thrilled. One way or another he may bring a lot of troubles.
Rewatching E1 and wondering if someone can answer a question I still don’t understand. How did Jon not know Sam was even in Winterfell until he came to the crypts?
This is my I regret using my phone predominantly to chat on here. I can never get a good gauge on what I’m writing and often make ridiculous typos or sentences that don’t make sense. Sorry for confusion ☺️
This is why we were given the absolute slow beauty of S8E2. Just so that S8E3 will hit us all the harder.
I can’t even do a death pool. Anybody, everybody who had a nice character moment. Probably dead. But, maybe at least some could survive. Please..? Please..?
Are there any characters that have any story left? They’ll be the ones to survive this Sunday’s massacre.
Ser Brienne has to survive until Ser Jaime dies in her arms. Jaime jinxed it in S5.
However, Jaime and Cersei dying seems to be linked. She always liked to say they came into this world together, they’d leave this world together.
Jaime might actually disagree by now, have other, subversive ideas.
He’s got another ladylove. Ser. Whatever. But it’ll be a Greek tragedy-type thing that the perfect couple, Jaime and Brienne cannot be together because of his fatal flaw. Even if it’s something he’s eschewed. Aah, the tragedy. Or the waste, really.
And it’s not like Cersei is some kind of a prophet – she’s not, she’s mostly stupid but pragmatic – and her downfall will be glorious and mostly down to her brothers she patronised and hated, never understood the love between Jaime and Tyrion or either’s intelligence.
But who cares about Lannister/Brienne problems. The world is about to end, there’s going to be this huge battle.
OK, so I’m not a huge battle fan. Guys swing swords, trebuchets, some more swords. Oh, don’t forget the archers, some of them are even female – obligatory equality acheived! yay! But we’ll get a last-minute reprieve from the Rhohirr… the Knights of the Val… Oh… whatever. You know the drill. Or maybe not. Shit.
I’m really scared now. Most of my favourites will probably die tomorrow.
Maybe I’ll just make GoT end for me with S8E2, the perfect character moments, the perfect goodbyes. Go lalalalala, can’t hear you about anything further.
Thanks for this article. Miquel Sapochnik’s statement about episodes 3, 4 and 5 being part of one “piece,” and the fact that he is doing 3 & 5 and was originally going to do 4 also, has caused me to kind of re-think the way I thought this episode would be and what I expected from it.
I’m not sure why, but I think I was putting too much emphasis on this one episode. I’m not sure if any of those 11 weeks of night shoots will be reflected in any episodes other than this one, but for some reason I like the fact that it seems these three episodes will tell one story with, as Sapochnik says, a beginning, a middle and an end.
Both NK and Cersei are meeting their end in KL. It is known.
Inga,
Book Euron was definitely interested in Dany and her dragons. So, it’s possible he is more than what he appears to be in the show, which atm is a convenient fleet of ships and a horndog with a queen fetish. 🙂
NK is gonna die by someone pushing dragonglass out of his chest.
I took that to mean that Sam was avoiding Jon because he didn’t know how to break it to him.
ntfdawy76,
They do not film seven days a week. The unions don’t allow it.
Ryan,
I didn’t see that shot of Dany and Jon on Dragonstone in the trailer
It doesn’t seem like Sam wanted to break it to him as he resisted when Bran told him it was time to do so. But then again, Sam could never hide anything from Jon so maybe he didn’t trust himself. That makes sense. Thanks for the response!
I enjoyed all the reunions but they were all so quick. I hoped for more conversation, asking each other what happened to them etc. While each reunion was heartwarming, the conversation seemed bullet point, which is probably all there was time for.
It would be kinda cool if they captured the NK, and Sam put his Maester-like medical skills to use by removing the shard (Bran knows that’s how he was created), and the guy that had been the NK said “Thank You! that things been aggravating me for thousands of years.”
Inga,
<"Jaime won’t be the valonquar: it will be Tyrion."
________
My money’s still on Aegon son of Rhaegar. (Which of the two Aegons? Why, the little brother of course. Why does Maggie use the esoteric Old Valyrian word for “the little brother”? Because the strangler is – as Dany might boast – “of the blood of Old Valyria.”)
Though I’m not a book reader, I once scribbled out a list of candidates with the pros and cons of each one, tried to parse the language of the prophecy itself, and looked for clues provided in the show.
Because I want The Hound to be the Warrior of Light aka Azor Ahai, the Last Hero, the Valonqar, Lord Commander of the Queensguard, Master of Poultry, the Lord’s Chosen, and just about everything else, I tried like hell to shoehorn Sandor into the role of Valonqar – after all, when tween Cersei received the prophecy she’d be well acquainted with the Casterly Rock kennelmaster’s two sons, Gregor and his little brother Sandor. (“I’ve been looking at Lannister gold all my life.”)
Yet, the tidbits and breadcrumbs started pointing elsewhere.
I admit I’m swayed by “gotcha!”-type double twists, and literal vs. figurative solutions to prophecies (I think there were a few of those in MacBeth that he misinterpreted to mean he’d be invincible). So to me, there’d be an appeal to the twist of the revelation, decades after the Lannisters’ slaughter of Rhaegar’s children,
that there was a “little brother” nobody ever knew existed.
It would also be clever if GRRM set this all up so that Cersei thinks the prophecy refers to Tyrion; the reader thinks the twist will be that it’s really Jaime; but the twist on the twist is that it’s really someone else – someone who checks all the boxes of the prophecy’s curious wording and grammar. (Damn it, Stannis! Where are you when we need you? The Grammar King would’ve figured this all out had he not been bamboozled by the vile Red Witch and murdered by Kingslayer 2.0.)
⚠️ Tinfoil Alert: S7e2 contained what I thought was a useless, time-wasting throwaway scene: LF encroaches on Jon’s pensive time in the crypts, and starts babbling – and keeps babbling about inappropriate matters, almost as if he wants to piss off Jon. LF goes so far as to tell Jon he “loves” Sansa as he loved her mother. (Eww!)
That triggers Jon to lose his temper, threaten to personally kill LF, wrap his hands around his throat and start choking him.
But soon after, Jon rides off to White Harbor for his mission to Dragonstone, and never sees LF again. While Jon’s away, Arya executes LF after the trial-by-ambush.
So I had thought that the Episode 2 Jon-LF amounted to nothing. The time would’ve been better spent, e.g., improving the Nymeria scene, or including another Beric Lord of Light sermon abruptly terminated by a caustic Sandor punchline.
However, in retrospect, maybe that LF scene was included to demonstrate that if anyone abducts or threatens either one of Jon’s sisters, he’ll go full-on Valonqar and choke the life out of the perpetrator. Since Cersei’s hasn’t abandoned her desire to get Sansa back to put her head on a spike; and Sansa herself has kept bringing up Cersei’s name and threats posed by Cersei, and has urged Jon not to underestimate Cersei’s persistence in “getting what she wants”, I can easily envision a late season scenario in which Cersei tries to abduct Sansa. If that happens, then I look for Jon nka Aegon to fulfill the prophecy.
PS ⚠️ It’s kind of a stretch to imagine how someone already “drowned” by her tears could then get choked to death. That’s the topic of another tinfoil rabbit hole involving homographs.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
It can still happen. I think the NK will be defeated the same kind of way as he was made, with magic combined from a weirwood tree and dragonglas.
As for old town, it could even be shown as a vision of Bran, he looked at Old Town that is just burned down, with Vyserion flying away. A scene shorter than a minute.
But I think we can assume the NK will surive if we can believe Sapochnik is referring to them. And if that scene from episode 4 is true
And I think the assessment that if the NK survives beyond episode 3 there is no room for human drama is just wrong. We have 240 minutes of screentime left. We can have 60 minutes max of White walker of that and 180 minutes of human drama. Look what we already got of human drama in episode 1 and 2 (110 minutes half of what’s left after episode 3) even when the NK is at the door of winterfell. If having human drama when the NK is alive, those 2 episodes wouldn’t score that high. It did work there, and it will in episode 4 till 6.
at least that’s my opinion. And I think we need to wait till those episode air before thinking that it wouldn’t work.
steff666,
If that happens it could be possible for the NK to be defeated in episode 4, and right after that Bronn attacks and the GC which results in dealing with Cersei in episode 5, which also make it one big arc.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Simple, 2 ways possible. 1. The survivors escape through the tunnels. And the NK has lost around 75% a 80% of his army, the dead of our heroes are being burned. Maybe Dany (with permission of the Starks) set fire to Winterfell.
2. The NK can win the battle but he lost a huge chunk of his army, so he make the choice of moving on, and let time deal with those who are left.
I’m going with one.
Personally I’m one the fence of the NK being defeated in battle because that feels to much as “super-hero-movie” where the good guys wins against the odds in a lucky-way. Because that’s only how they will win against the undead. And do we believe the NK will be defeated by dragonfire even when he walks through dragonfire in 7×06?
I want him defeated by some secret way Bran and Sam cook up, with old textbook, Bran knows how he was made and Sam could find out what to do to undo it.
It’s also possible the NK will be sort of defeated (his army) but not himself and he will flee to a safe place and starting anew (Which will take years and years, and some characters say, let’s deal it later, but Jon states: It has to be dealt now. There’s so many ways it could go.
But we will see tomorrow, and no matter which way they will go, as long as they portrait it right, I’m all in for it.
But having the biggest enemy being destroyed 240 minutes before the end is not how I want that enemy to be destroyed. It’s like Sauron being defeated in the first scene of RotK or Voldemort in movie 6. Look at the hobbit how it turns out of you kill the enemy too soon. Hobbit III was the biggest let down of all because of that.(not only that but it didn’t help either)
Tyrion Pimpslap,
They don’t have limited time, HBO granted them unlimited time as long as they needed, they even wanted more seasons. D&D wanted to end the story here, with everything in place in every episode how they saw fit. They did that with the envision of what George told them, and I think there’s a huge chance George told them how the WW are defeated in the books and where. And I don’t think they are going to change such a big plot. So if in the books the white walkers will reach the south, so will they in the show.
So it all depends what george and D&D intended to be the end of the series. I’m all in for every angle, the angle you propose, as long as episode 4 till 6 remains their excitement and quality with that, and the way that the NK will remain till later in the series. The later is my choice because I don’t want the WW being a cop-out and being remembered as easily defeated by the fandom.
(And I hope a scene where Cersei shits her pants when seeing the dead and admitting her mistake, not by words but by facial expression)
Since when? The unions allow it, but their members have to be compensated accordingly for the overtime. Time and a half up to a point, and then double time. Are European unions different?
King in the North East,
Sorry, English is not my native tongue.
King in the North East,
I heard he has taste for chickens, so expect a big moment between him and Sandor, his fate will be sealed by losing the chicken-eat-competition at the Winterfell kitchens.
—-
I’m wondering now, what if each white walker has some sort of wight-limit-cap. I mean I think the more wights you reanimate how harder it is to keep them reanimated. Or could they easily have 10 million each. What if every WW is defeated but not the NK and he can only have let’s say around 2000 wights tops, until he finds himself some new White Walkers who can do the rest. Meaning that the WW can be defeated in episode 3 but the NK demise will be later, and he will not be so much of a treat at the moment until he finds himself some new babies to convert and wait out the years.
This could make the human clash with cersei some more importance in the meanwhile.
I hope we get one final Wilhelm scream.
http://www.wilhelmscream.net
What was the point of going beyond the wall, getting a wight, losing a dragon over it, then showing said wight to Cersei and Euron if they are not gonna face the dead as well? NK and the remains of his army are getting to KL where both he and Cersei are defeated. Mark my words.
Ice Hunter,
As far as I know it only counts for the workers so the crew behind the scenes. They work with hour-pay. So they have the normal rules. They can work 7 days a week but the employer can’t force them to, so if the employer wants a 7 day week but the employee wants 2 days of a week the employer should get those 2 days off. Something like that.
But in my country actors don’t get pay per hour, they don’t get loan but “”gage” if i’m not right, at least they get paid per job (episode, season, movie depends on the contract), the rules don’t apply to them because they have the rules that employers, they work for themselves but gets a contract like a business deal. They don’t get pension for instance. That’s why actors can be forced to work every day of the week because their business deal states that they should as long as the job is not done.
(Somebody correct me if I’m wrong but I learned something like this in school 15 years back so I could be wrong)
Unresolved: not a complete list
There must always be a Stark at Winterfell.
What is dead may never die.
“When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before.”
Valonqar
“You’ll be queen, for a time. Then comes another, younger, more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear.”
The Prince that was Promised/Azor Ahai/Lightbringer
” Doesn’t matter, it’s not how it ends for you, brother…”
“We will meet again…”
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you are safe and happy, and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” (The Lannisers always pay their debts)
talvikorppi,
“…Maybe I’ll just make GoT end for me with S8E2, the perfect character moments, the perfect goodbyes. Go lalalalala, can’t hear you about anything further.”
——
You must be a mind reader. That’s the way I’ve been feeling.*
• For example, Brienne and Jaime both gave each other what each of them always aspired to: Brienne using her impeccable reputation and credibility to vouch for Jaime’s honor and present counterpoints to the “oathbreaker”, slime ball narrative, resulting in his acceptance by the Starks; and Jaime anointing Brienne a Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. The emotional weight of that knighting ceremony, including the spectators’ joyful reactions, was impossible without Brienne first vouching for Jaime earlier on.
I think it was Luka who coined the perfect term for the knighting as an expression of love: “Oathsex.” I include Brienne vouching for Jaime in that description. This was a perfect ending to the story of Jaime & Brienne.
• One other thing I’ve wanted to mention: I don’t think “Oathsex” was possible without Bran’s discretion. Bran pipes in with the words Jaime uttered when pushing Bran out the window in S1e1 (“the things we do for love”), signaling to Jaime that he does remember what happened. As shown when Bran and Jaime talk later, Jaime is befuddled that Bran didn’t reveal to anyone what happened. I don’t think Bran ever will tell anyone. Had Bran mentioned it during the inquest at the start of S8e2, there’s no way Jaime doesn’t get banished or beheaded.
• Despite the brevity of the Arya-Sandor scene, I would’ve been content with their story ending after Arya wondered WTF Sandor was doing there (e.g., joining the BwoB, wight hunting with Jon, and now defending WF) and asking rhetorically when he’d ever fought for anyone other than himself; and then Sandor, turning to look into her eyes, answering with uncharacteristic gentleness: “I fought for you, didn’t I?”
I f*cking wanted to cry. Another expression of love – in the only way Sandor could convey it.
* BTW, I had the same reaction after the end of S6e10. I would’ve been fine with the show ending at that point.
That was a bit odd. Guess Sam was busy.
Winterfell is larger this season according to the behind the scenes videos, so it’s possible Sam and Jon just didn’t bump into each other for awhile.!! Seriously though, the new set sounds incredible, and I look forward to seeing how it is used in Episode 3. From watching the videos, the new set allows Sapochnik to film sequences without cutting from shot to shot (as well as his endless night shoots that allows him to get all of those shots without cuttting) Once you’re in the castle, it sounds like they made a series of real castle rooms, connecting corridors, and different levels to shoot from. I wonder if they will let someone use it as a giant Laser Tag experience where you can run and hide all around the castle on different levels. When we will see Arya running down the corridors of WF, she’s really running around the castle and not just a small set with a couple hallways. In the 60 minutes video with Kit he said one of his favorite scenes was in the “Watchers on the Wall” episode when the camera panned all around the courtyard with action going on all around at all angles. I am thinking we are going to get similar types of shots around the new expanded extreme makeover WF set. I can’t take the whole day off Monday, but I at least don’t have to work until the afternoon.
Firannion,
On Theon I agree with you, and not every redemption arc has to end with death. In any way it could be seen that Theon is kind of already dead. He was cut away by Ramsay bit by bit until only Reek was left. Or to be precise mainly Reek. The Theon we see since the end of season 5, when he pushed Miranda aside to save Sansa, is not the same man. He had to rebuilt himself bit by bit, and that’s still a work in progress. That’s why I am curious to see what man Theon could have been, if someone had told him earlier on: “You are a Greyjoy and you are a Stark.”
On Missandei and Grey Worm: Back in Season 7 Missandei made a stand for Dany when Jon questioned her like Tyrion suggested he should do. Jon asked her, what Daenerys would do, if Missandei would ask to go back to Naath and Missandei said, Daenerys would give her a ship and wish her good fortune. Jon was sceptical. “You believe that?” And Missandei answered: “I know it.”
I am with Missandei, and I think this is what we will see at the end. That’s exactly what Daenerys would do. She would be devasted and sad to lose her friend, but she would do it.
And for me that would actually count as the promised bittersweet ending. Mourning the many victims, cleaning up “as much of the shit” as they can, installing a new order and saying goodbye to old friends: a new beginning under changed circumstances with survivors who have to live with their memories and the weight of the decisions and choices they made. As I see it, some will struggle with that more than others…
Maybe the brother that kills Cersei is Jamie or Tyrion as a wight!
This is the most fun post. Epis 3 was almost perfect for me as well.
I am not at all worried about Jaime and Brienne. If anything happens to either I would be both surprised and shocked.
They will be fine.
Direcat,
So eloquently stated
I feel the same
🍻
I also think that Daenerys/her dragons are the flaming sword to be wielded by Jon in the war against the AOTD. That is her purpose/role in the story.
I think you are right. I don’t know if anyone mentioned it already, but is the following not veeeeery conspicuous:
Tyrion to Jamie before the strategy meeting:
Tyrion after he talked with Bran:
🤔
He might know something…
Since you brought up Samwell Tarly’s medical skills…..
Let me see if I have this straight:
(a) Bran is NK’s primary target.
(b) The NK’s tattoo on Bran’s forearm functions as a GPS tracking device, enabling NK to monitor Bran’s precise location at all times.
(c) Wouldn’t shielding Bran from surveillance have been an imperative – both for his sake and those around him?
(d) The country’s foremost dermatologist and plastic surgeon, with a specialty in surgical skin layer debridement and accelerated wound healing, is in the house: Samwell Tarly, M.D.
(e) Also present are practitioners of other crude but effective surgical techniques, like amputation of hands and limbs. (“Paging Dr. Clegane.”)
(f) Surgical excision of the marked tissue would’ve been a piece of cake compared to the extensive tissue-slicing procedures for treatment of Jorah Mormont’s advanced greyscale.
(g) Excision of the marked tissue would present creative counterintelligence opportunities to confuse and delay NK by providing false location coordinates – or removing Bran from the grid completely.
(h) Someone as smart as Tyrion could propose several alternatives using the talents of Team WF members, such as:
Tyrion: “Theon Greyjoy, can you construct a scale model sized boat and anchor it to the ocean floor so that it drifts in circles in the middle of the ocean, or affix the tissue to a stationary bouy? Would you be able to get the vessel from WF to the sea? NK would assume Bran is offshore somewhere.”
Theon: “Building the boat or bouy – no problem. Can’t guarantee completing the trip to the shoreline without interception.”
Tyrion: “Maester Wolkan, can you affix the marked tissue to a raven scroll to Lord R. Glover c/o Deepwood Motte with a note: “Wish you were here”?
Wolkan: “Yes, but I can’t guarantee ravens can fly in this weather or avoid getting shot down.”
Tyrion: “Edd, can a rider on horseback evade the AotD and take a package to Castle Black?”
Edd: “There’s nobody at Castle Black.”
Tyrion: “Yes. That’s the point.”
Edd: “We were able to go around them to get here. Not sure we could now.”
Tyrion: “Well then, I suggest it would be prudent to just destroy the marked tissue, to protect Bran and anyone sheltering him.”
Sam: “We could try burning it, but we don’t know for sure if the mark is impervious to fire.”
Tyrion: “Feed it to the goats.”
WF Guard: “We don’t have any goats.”
Tyrion: “Well make do!”
Sandor: “Let me just chop off his arm. Play it safe. It won’t hurt… too much.”
Jaime: “Easy for you to say.”
Sam: “That’s a bit extreme.”
Sandor: “Alright then, just the hand above the wrist.”
Tyrion: “No. Let’s go with Dr. Tarly’s method.”
Sandor (throws down axe): “Bunch of nancies.”
Kevin1989,
Well, NK is the Sauron and Cersei the Saruman, if you really want to compare it with LOTR, but those movies dropped the Scouring of the Shire which GRRM liked, if I recall well. So I expect the NK to be done with before Cersei. GoT started with the undead intro, but that doesn’t mean it will end with it. Most likely for me is that it folds back to its political focus of season 1 and the unreselved themes (the whole book). Like, if Cersei has a child (guess not) will they let it live (guess so). Will Daenerys choose “home” or “throne”? Will Jon be a Stark and/or Targaryen? Will Sansa be Queen? Will Arya finish her list? Will the Hound come to terms with his Brother? Tyrion and Cersei? (more a S2 thing) Etc.
ShameShameShame,
???The general viewer (such as my DH) can probably name 10, based on the # of times he has asked ‘whose that” And thats just th show folk. Book folk, probably more,but regardless how are the # of characters known a homage to eithr?
I think there will be magic, aside from dragons, that will come from Sam in his reading Tyrion in his Bran convo, and /or Mel. And then sam writes the history book about it.
Mango,
Fun? You call it fun when I’m exposing how vulnerable and fragile I’m feeling? 😀
I wish I could be as optimistic as you are about Ser Jaime and Ser Brienne. I’m just clinging on to the hope he’ll die in her arms, but not before he deals with Cersei once and for all. (Which means both survive the brutal next episode.)
I don’t want Jaime to kill Cersei (kinslayer, none so cursed in the eyes of gods and men), but really, who else? Not ASNAVWP wearing Jaime’s face, that would be the worst. Euron? Yeah, I’d like that. Or maybe an elephant.
But story-wise, it’s got to be Jaime, in a Greek tragedy way. He won’t live to enjoy the beaches and waterfalls of Tarth with his true love.
ShameShameShame,
The general viewer (such as my DH) can probably name 10, based on the # of times he has asked ‘whose that” And thats just th show folk. Book folk, probably more. You are probably right, just thought the numbers were off. Carry on
There will be magic, aside from dragons, that will come from Sam in his reading Tyrion in his Bran convo, and /or Mel. And then sam writes the history book about it. So says I.
Dolorous Methuselah,
Hahahahaha! I do like the idea of finding out his name, ala Rumplestilsin (heck, maybe thats it!
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Two (disjointed) thoughts, in abridged form:
1. NK as some kind of “Mother Ship” whose destruction will deactivate the entire AotD makes little sense, and is irreconcilable with everything we’ve seen thus far. (E.g., he’s never been shy about “exposing” himself unguarded, like his slow walk to the edge of the dock at Hardhome.) Plus, that “resolution” would turn GoT into a rip-off of “Independence Day”, “Starship Troopers”, and countless other sci-fi flicks.
2. I’ve been considering an alternative that might explain the equivocation by some of the actors in interviews. It’d be a variation on a sports cliche spouted by coaches of teams going up against an opponent with a superstar player:
“You can’t stop Night King. All you can do is hope to contain him.”
It better not be; anything that is important to the climax should be shown.
Ten Bears,
clever – and I’ve thought of something similr. But this is a fantasy and as a huge fan of the genre since I was knee high; it helps greatly to be able to suspend belief at times, for some time to come until you come to the end of it and you reach for a saw….
It’s not like it has not been foreshadowed in the series, and both foreshadowed and prophecized in the books. (There is, of course, the brigade holding that every male who has an older sibling is eligible, but they seem to have gone away!)
heh, applying literary theory will piss off some people.
Reducing the size of the script means cutting scenes, not details of scenes. The Walkers riding on horses and the Walkers riding on spiders would be identical in terms of the length of the script.
btw sorry for the duplicate post up thread. This site is as slow as molasses today and it is making it hard to typee, and copy
My bet is that the mark is a lot more than Arm deep. Otherwise, the Children could have just amputated it and gotten the arm out of the Weirhub.
Ten Bears,
Love these thoughts!
And even if the raven got shot down or lost in the storm, or Theon or a rider got intercepted, at least they would have denied the information about where Bran was from the NK and possibly defeated his ability to breach any spells WInterfell might have against the NK (such as happened in the 3 Eyed Raven’s cave).
Of course, their plan now is to lure him to Bran. If they were able to remove his “mark”, they could set a trap somewhere that didn’t endanger Bran.
kevin1989,
I think/hope the Night King will be defeated in an interesting fashion too, e.g. magic, dragonglass, warging, dragons etc. I just don’t accept that it has to occur toward the end of the season to be satisfactory and realistic.
I think showing Oldtown or any other major location being destroyed via a Bran vision would be hugely underwhelming. People are already disappointed that we didn’t see more action at the Last Hearth, so the Night King trashing major fortresses across Westeros seen only via Bran’s visions would surely be considered a cop-out.
Same goes with the human drama. People are already complaining that the first couple of episodes focused too much on the personal and political drama, rather than the Night King. Do you really believe that they can successfully interweave all the drama between the major characters and further conflict against the Night King?
People are going to be saying why the f ** k are they doing that, why the hell is she saying this, how the f *8 k did they have the time to do that, when the Night King just trashed the greatest Night King-killing army ever assembled in history.
It would surely detract from the human drama.
I haven’t seen the episodes. If the Night King survives and the action moves south then, more fool me. And I sincerely hope they can pull it off.
I just don’t accept that the AotD being defeated at Winterfell is an absurdist notion that’d undermine the whole narrative.
talvikorppi,
I’m hopeful about Brienne and Jaime too. But then I love them so… 🙂
As to the killing of Cersei? Honestly, unless she kills/tortures Brienne in front of him while confessing to every horrible thing she’s done that he didn’t know about OR she’s a wight or Night Queen, then I don’t see Jaime killing her. Especially not show Jaime, who kept sleeping with her even after she blew up the Sept.
I get the Greek tragedy angle, and I’m not saying Jaime isn’t also going to die-though I don’t want him to. I just think his arc has grown away from hers in a beautiful way and making him do that would just leave a bad taste in my mouth.
I could see Euron or a FM sent by the Iron Bank, maybe Tyrion, though he keeps showing a soft spot for her that might make it too difficult. I could see Arya doing it too, particularly if Cersei does anything else to her family. Maybe she and the Hound will take another trip together and grab the Mountain as well. 🙂
Wimsey,
I don’t quite agree. Tyrion was shown to be the only one who really asks Bran about his experiences. Bran might be positively predisposed towards Tyrion (that saddle thing) and talk about things that Tyrion’s sharp mind will put together. If we’re getting the smart Tyrion back, haha. He’d know how to use the knowledge he gains from Bran.
I’d call the Tyrion/Bran chat a hung gun.
We weren’t given the contents of that chat for storytelling reasons, not to reveal important information too early. But when the results of their chat kick into action, we’ll remember that chat.
Otherwise, why would the writers make a point of Tyrion making a point of chatting with Bran? Just to be nice to the boy? Hah!
Neither of these analogies are correct. GoT and LotR are completely different kinds of stories that use characters in completely nonanalogous ways. There is no “good” or “evil” in GoT; it’s all about protagonists and how they deal among choices that with both “good” and “bad” aspects. LotR has pretty clear “good” and “evil” reflecting Tolkien’s (even then!) very anachronistic pseudo-Victorian / pre-Vatican I Catholic views; there, characters are used purely to show what “good” and “bad” people do.
We still have to learn the NK’s motivation; we are due for that third “shocker” and more than one cast member noted that there is a huge twist to this season. That will almost certainly make the NK no more like Sauron than were the Shadows in Babylon 5.
As for Cersei, she’s not an allegory for the evils of capitalists as Saruman was; she’s just a dim-witted asshole with delusions of genius and accomplishment. She is, by pure chance, the same sort of person that Donald Trump is. However, that’s a much more realistic thing than Tolkien’s caricature of “new money.”
Had we seen some potentially important piece of information exchanged, then I would agree. But we got nothing.
I agree. And, by the way, it’s the second time they’ve cut off an important Tyrion conversation right before it got interesting. First Cersei and now Bran.
Tyrion’s private chats are definitely flashing like neon signs at this point.
This idea somehow brings Jaime and Bran even closer. Chop off Bran’s hand and wrist… why, he’s almost Jaime now, haha.
By the same token, it will greatly detract from the human drama if the NK is defeated now without some huge dilemma of the sort that has typified this series from the start.
My bet is that the drama that’s going to ensue will stem from the story essentially mimicking reality: the Northern refugees fleeing south in front of the AotD will be running into an anti-immigrant Queen’s border patrol. If this is Pt. I of a three-part substory, then look to see it all tied together by understanding the “why” of the NK (and, no: we only know the what of the NK) and some huge choices by Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion, Arya and probably Bran at the climax of Pt. III.
Both men broken-things; all of the protagonists are bastards, dwarfs or broken-things (i.e., crippled or penis-less).
At any rate, the fact that the people who actually understood this connection did not think to do it (and given that they were aware of this possibility), this suggests that the “mark” is on Bran’s “aura”, not just his arm.
death by chickenfire,
“please give me the link to your youtube channel with the video tutorials on professional seduction!”
I could never give you that as it is not allowed on YouTube. That is what Twitter is for.
Wimsey,
That’s more what I’m leaning towards.
(I think) that this would be really, really awful storytelling. The show has not resorted to this for twists in the past; I really hope that they do not stoop to this now!
woo hoo! I’m not alone!!!!! 😎
Totally agree.
They made it explicit that Dany wanted him out of harm’s way because his intelligence may be vital after the war… then he shared a chat with Bran.
Either he learnt something that may be vital to defeating the Night King and he will defy Dany’s orders to convey it, at risk to his own safety.
Or he learnt something that will come into play after the war is won – e.g. the truth about Jon, how to defeat Cersei, etc.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Im not sure why youre in denial, but I guess itll be a surprise to you tomorrow night at least.
Do we think Tyrion just chatted about wine and whores, or do we think he might have talked about more important matters?
I’m not saying Bran revealing important information (maybe even something Bran is unaware of the importance of) to Tyrion is definitely a thing. But even you, Wimsey, have to admit that Tyrion’s and Bran’s chat was given prominence. Many chats happen off-screen, we’re never told about them, they’re never pointed out to us, we’re just left to infer they happened.
This Tyrion/Bran chat we are actually being shown the beginning of, pointed at with red arrows. There must be a reason. A hung gun.
Neither is it mine. I slip up occasionally too, but that’s fine.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Denial aint just a river in Egypt.
Its possible that shot is in Ep 3 at the end after they retreat – more likely they didnt realize they goofed and the sleuths online deduced that the shot is from Dragonstone due to contours of fireplace.
AOTD/WW/NK have been THE MAIN ANTAGONIST of the story since SCENE ONE. The “human drama” and “game of thrones” have been to show the folly of human hubris/titles etc when an existential threat is facing humanity. ALL of humanity – not just the north. Theres a reason theyve mentioned 1,000,000 people in Kings Landing multiple times. Cersei is going to be faced with the threat she had ignored, and theres going to be great tragedy/sacrifice required to save whoever they can in KL.
You dont defeat LITERAL DEATH with THREE 80 minute episodes still to go. And Sapo directing another huge battle Episode 5. Oh, and the dragon flying over KL from Brans vision? Thats not going to just be a leisurely ride.
NK will NOT DIE tomorrow. Its a fact, i would bet my life on it.
Inga,
I am right behind you. If they go with this part of the prophecy, which might have been left out of the show as they never mentioned it, it will be Tyrion.
I don’t think that for Jamie Cersei is already gone and forgotten, she is after all carrying his child and I think to a certain degree he really is doing this for her and the child – or at least he is telling that to himself. But I agree that he is finished with her. What she did to him was the ultimate betrayal, not only on a greater level, because she is basically flipping her middlefinger to mankind with her actions, but also on a very personal level. He had to learn that the woman he loved, has no respect whatsoever for him and what he believes in. All his life Jamie struggled with the oaths that were demanded from him and what honour demanded. Now there is this fight where honor and oaths do not contradict each other and she doesn’t care at all. I don’t think there is much left in him to even look at her, let alone strangle her.
Tyrion on the other hand… His relationship with his sister has never been a loving one. Nevertheless there has always been some weird kind of …respect? Not sure if this is the right word, but they could always talk to each other in a way they could talk to no one else. They know each other like only siblings can, and his family was always Tyrion’s weak spot. It always meant more to him than to his siblings, because being a dwarf his family and his name was it, what kept him alive. As he said to Jon on the trip to the Wall: “Hadn’t I been born a Lannister of Casterly Rock, I would have been left to die in the woods.” And despite the resentments from his father and his sister, it was a good and comfortable life for him. Something he reminisced about in this episode, too. So, this newest betrayal by his sister will hit him harder than anybody else. It threatens not only his position, something which is already on the brink after his recent failures, but also his reputation and what he believes in. Something he even mentioned in this episode: “I made a mistake common to clever people: I underestimated my opponents.” I am with Jamie on this: Don’t be too hard on yourself! As intelligent as Tyrion is, it’s hard if not impossible to understand the forces which drive his sister in the face of this threat. It’s simply not rational and against everything he stands for and believes in, which includes the love for his family. Maybe even her order for Bronn to kill the brothers will play into that. I know that it’s not very popular that Bronn actually does what he is ordered to do, but what if he shoots Jamie and fails to shoot Tyrion as well?
Tyrion being the valonquar would also fit perfectly in Cersei’s story arc which is shaped by not a small amount of Maggie’s prophecy. All her life she feared that this prophecy will come to fruition and all her life she did everything to prevent that. By doing so, she actually contributed a great deal to fulfill this prophecy. In marrying Robert, the King, she didn’t had a choice, that’s true. But she had a choice regarding her children. Out of revenge for Robert’s behaviour in their wedding night (which wasn’t acceptable in any way, don’t get me wrong here!) she denied him a child with her, a true heir, and gave only birth to Jamie’s children. Everything else that followed was a direct consequence of this decision. So, Tyrion, the brother she always feared to be the valonquar, being the actual valonquar would fit perfectly in this pattern of self-fulfilling prophecy.
As for the method: Wasn’t the poison Joffrey killed with named “The Strangler”? I can totally see the two of them, sitting opposite each other (very similar to their scene in season 7), chatting and he is slipping the poison into her glass and watching her when she dies. And yes, I also think this second act of kinslaying will have dire consequences for the “most beloved dwarf in the world”…
And also the stupid autocorrection on mobile phone where I most of the time write. Damn they change the strangest things. That’s also why I post multiple posts instead of one big post because it’s more difficult on phone to keep track of all the comments.
Possibly. I don’t know the ins and outs. but I do know major film productions have strict health and safety rules , and other productions have had five day work weeks. This isn’t a few hours overtime in an indoor heated set; it’s heavy physical activity outdoors in cold weather, involving horses and fire.
Why would you think Sapochnik was lying about the length of time ?
Jack Hamm,
Arya! Girl, I love ya! But… you need to stay clothed until receiving some of Doreah’s lessons in seduction! I blushed( and so did many others), covered my eyes, shuddered and cringed mightily while watching you and Gendry “go at it.” I simply could not believe what was being shown. Williams said when she initially read this scene she took it to be a joke. Ain’t it the truth.
I disagree. Fans whinged for years about important off-screen deaths and sex. Showing Arya initiating sex but on her terms and with the man she loves, is a critical new step in her ongoing re-humanisation. Making it reasonably clear removed the ambiguity. I give her a 75% chance of conceiving a child. And since that child could be down the line of inheritance, this is important to the saga’s end. And Arya must be allowed to grow up. It was daring of Maisie to do that, yet tasteful. It added immensely to the verisimilitude.
Bryan Cogman said they made love because they knew they might die. IMO that’s too simplistic. It was so significant for both–two virgins (he was most likely lying about having slept with three women) who had puppy-loved, then lost then, then found each other again. Moreover, his knowing he’s a high-born bastard seems to have given him some ambition, and she’s the only highborn who would accept a blacksmith. And she’s so unconventional that he’s the only man who would accept her idiosyncrasies. If they they have conceived a child, it might ensure continuation of the Stark and Baratheon lines. The Stag sigil is still on the Seal that says Game of Thrones at the end of the credits. Of course, this also fulfills Robert’s “I have a son, you have a daughter” goal. And Arya, despite her anti-domesticity stance, has always been sympathetic to children. One s8 trailer quoted Catelyn calling Jon “a motherless child”…but over an image of Arya. She was closer to a mother than anyone else whilst Jon was growing up. It would be Martinian indeed to have a narrative reversal where she becomes the mother (and probably his lady) and Sansa stays single.
BTW, did anyone else sense that the little scarred girl who touched Davos’s heart might have been Melisandre with a glamour?
So, the dead pool.
Jon and Dany are safe. End game stuff.
Second tier safe are Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, even Bran.
All others are fair game. All bets are off. Not all of them will die but many will. Theon’s almost certainly a gonner.
I’d like to think Sers Jaime and Brienne survive this one because he’s got unfinished business with Cersei and is jinxed to die in the arms of the woman he loves = Ser Brienne.
Whatever happens, I’ll be devastated. We’ll lose so many of the characters we love tomorrow.
Another reason NK wont die tomorrow – Mels, Sams, and Brans arcs still have to “tie up” HOW to defeat the NK – thats not going to happen in the chaos of impending battle. Hes not going to lose a swordfight to Jon.
Ryan,
I’m not sure what you think you gain by such a childish attitude.
It’s just a matter of fact that a shot of Jon and Dany at Dragonstone doesn’t preclude them from winning the battle in the next episode.
I’m glad you’re so certain that the Night King / AotD are the most important factor in the conclusion of this story. Congratulations.
I won’t be surprised if the AotD threat lasts until the end of the season since I already admitted that it could go either way, as did the other contributor you’re lambasting.
We’re open to both eventualities, while you’re betting your life on one outcome, as if it matters that much.
Anyone think we’ll see one of NK’s generals raise some wights at WF? That might be what AeJon is looking at frightened in the pic. We’ve only seen the NK do it, but imagine a few different WW’s raising the dead simultaneously!
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Childish? Lambasting? If you say so. Or, just disagreeing. Cheers.
I should thank you (or blame you😁) for getting me to think in terms of “Chekhov’s guns” (a gun hung early on has to be “fired” by the end) and related narrative principles, including [in simplistic terms] William of Occam’s principle that the simplest solution that requires the fewest assumptions and is based on the facts presented is usually the correct one. As restated by Stephen King, a corollary of “Chekhov’s Gun” is that if something is important to the end game, it must’ve been presented early on or else it will come off as a cheap “deus ex machina.”
So here we are after 69 episodes aired out of 73 total: roughly 94% completed: way too late to throw in some new game-changing revelation.
Jorah reminded Dany (and us) of the value of Tyrion’s intelligence. I’m thinking that Tyrion’s chat with Bran won’t uncover anything new. Rather, Tyrion will learn what we already know – but will spot assumptions masquerading as accepted “facts”; and just maybe come up with an explanation that discounts propaganda, exaggeration, and embellishment.
(As you’ve pointed out and as the show has reminded us over and over again, so many “historical” events are either fabrications or revisionist accounts of what really happened.)
Bran’s not omniscient. He’s acknowledged his knowledge is fragmentary. He’s shown he has difficulty prioritizing significant facts over minutiae. He doesn’t always get the full picture. (E.g., he saw that Jon was born to Lyanna and Rhaegar – but assumed he was a “Sand” bastard because he didn’t stick around to hear Lyanna utter the baby’s name.) All too often, he hasn’t timely followed upon on or disclosed important facts. (E.g., he didn’t bother telling Sansa he’d “seen” their MIA sister Arya at the Crossroads Inn; and despite knowing LF was a shady character, Bran apparently didn’t look into LF’s history until it was almost too late, enabling LF to run amuck and create more “chaos.”)
If we’re going to get a satisfying, justified conclusion, it can’t be something from out of the blue in S8e6 akin to the Enterprise dropping out of warp, and firing photon torpedoes at AotD or beaming down an away team to rescue our heroes. [Okay, I know that’s silly. Monty Python satirized deus ex machina devices like that in “Life of Brian”, an alternative biblical messiah tale in which Brian falls off a building while being chased – and an alien spaceship appears out of nowhere and swoops him up.)
I’m going to look the big “explanation” in clues sprinkled throughout the 69 episodes, not in something we haven’t seen yet. Personally, I think all the necessary clues were already there before the end of Season 6. (The only exception is that I still can’t figure out what the deal is with the “Lord of Light.”)
Jack Bauer 24,
Of course. I’m pretty sure we’ll see some of our beloved characters reanimated as wights. (⚠️ Tinfoil alert: that’s what I think freaked out bloody-faced Arya in the trailer snippet.)
Stark Raven’ Rad,
I agree with everything you wrote in response to “Jsck Hamm,” While we’re on the subject of Arya & Gendry and your response, do you have any idea what “Jack Hamm” meant when he “suggested” to Arya “you need to stay clothed until receiving some of
Doreah’s lessons in seduction!”?
Arya’s seduction was perfect. What did Doreah do or know that was better? I guess I should be asking “Jack Hamm” what he meant….
I did not see this earlier.
Thank you, I needed some help. You are quite right – it was Saruman that engaged Gandalf.
So yes, the varied baddies in LOTR, had “speaking parts” in Saruman and Gollum.
If “there is only one war. The Great War. And it is here.” Then I kind of doubt it will be resolved in one episode. That doesn’t seem that great to me. My guess is that the few survivors learn something important about the NK in the battle and even though they don’t kill him, they will enact their plan later. That way he still survives and can wreak some havoc on KL but they won’t have to have an entirely redundant second battle with the AotD. Just some targeted NK assassinating.
kevin1989,
That’s how it works in the U.S. too. The below the line workers get paid by the hour and the above the line workers are paid by the episode. But the workers always have the right to say no, when it comes to working for weeks on end. If indeed there were those who worked all fifty-five days in a row then they are my heroes, and I hope the extra income was worth it!
When we look back at the finished show, let’s remember those who shivered, downed endless cups of coffee, wondered what the sun looked like, and no longer recognized their love ones when they finally went home. They were the real warriors.
Tenderhearted T, I am relentlessly hopeful that D&D will show some ambition in how their story ends. That is the source of my good cheer.
However, I must confess that I do not watch much television and so am quite innocent of how bad the TV dramas can get. I understand that most are really bad.
Worthwhile drama, art, music, film etc. are not formulaic in the sense that it rule-bound because it is a “Greek tragedy” or “never hang a gun unless you plan to fire it” or whatever. That is just bad low-end work.
So leave room for surprise despite what the “rules” tell you. Good creative work is from the heart and imagination not from a diagram or a formula. The rest, ignore.
I have no idea where D&D is taking this but I am hopeful they will go for an emotionally complex end. What does this mean for Jaime and Brienne – maybe nothing in terms of survival. For me, it just means I am hoping for something different from the most obvious endings. This may be unrealistic as GOT is already quality compromised. So if that does not happen, well, no-one told me to watch this thing……
I keep wondering if “trampled by elephant” would permanently get rid of the NK. I mean, sure he seems rather invincible, but being squashed into a fruit roll-up form has to hinder him a bit. He could then be folded or put in a jar, safely out of reach of a bike pump. 🤔
talvikorppi,
Saturday 10:05 pm
Well f*ck me dead with a spoon. I just found out that I probably won’t be able to watch the episode until Wednesday at the earliest. (Last minute, work related request for help I couldn’t turn down because I wanted to watch a TV show.)
That means no internet either, because I’m sure all heart-stopping moments will be click bait titles everywhere.
🤢
talvikorppi,
It seems to point to Tyrion learning about how Bran’s abilities work, which could be very important for future plans. I’m still not sure why they haven’t been using Bran to map the AotD’s movement in the North (e.g. Did they go straight down from Eastwatch or splinter their forces and sweep east and south? etc….) or to learn how the AotD was defeated in prior generations, particularly as pursuit of the 3ER seems to be a priority for the NK. He should also be able to look in on what occurred during Cersei’s more recent planning sessions…
It seems that Jon had no idea where the AOTD was until Tormund arrived and said in a few hours. I thought…really? How did Bran know that the wall was broken yet could not say where the AOTD was at any other point. Did I misunderstand that?
Now this is a practical plan. I like it.
krupke,
Oops, meant “sweep west and south”
No, I really do not! In fact, I had completely forgotten it. I do remember thinking “that was completely pointless” when my wife and I rewatched the episode on Sunday, but I had more or less forgotten that the scene had happened until I was reading this thread.
That stated, am I forgetting anything? Did Bran tell Tyrion anything that could be a gun of some sort?
That spoon thing sounds painful.
Sorry, that you seem to have no choice. That is always worse than if you chose to delay it.
I did not see Epis 2 until several hours later than initial screening. I was at dinner with a big group and chose not to leave real people for pretend people. Made no difference..when I saw it was still great! I may also not see Episode 3 live as I have another dinner on Sunday but plan to enjoy it when I get to it!
The discussion of whether the NK or the humans win in Ep. 3 is interesting, but to be honest, I’d be fine with either outcome as long as it is well done (Ep. 2 was excellent so if that level of quality keeps up, I’ll be ecstatic).
I think narratively speaking, if we look at GoT as a 5 act theatrical plot, we’d be at like Act 4, Scene 2 or so. Rising Action or more likely the start of the Climax. (I think Eps. 3-4-5 comprise the Climax, while Ep. 6 will be the prologue). It’s kind of good that we are still unsure of the exact sequence the Climax will take, but we know that in some order, the AotD and Cersei will each be involved in some part or parts of it.
That does seem odd on one hand. However, Bran needs eyes of some sort to monitor them: and this might indicate that he no longer even has those.
His ravens went on strike for better wages and conditions.
To be honest, I was hoping the ravens might even be used for a purpose other than reconnaissance. Having a few thousand of them attack one or a few WW/Wights at a strategic place and time could have proved useful. But alas, it doesn’t seem like we’ll see much of them (or of Nymeria’s pack) going forward.
Mango,
For me gollum isn’t a baddie. I have seen the movies 30+ times and for me hes a victim himself. The ring destroyed a peaceful man into a monster. But that’s another franchise so maybe not really the place to talk about.
Ten Bears,
😮 that sucks big time. I hope you love your work, else it’s even more shittier.
And what about us here 😮 we have to do without ten bears for 2 whole days.
Good luck
Wimsey,
Odd. His raven “eye” sees the wall broken and the AOTD cross then….? It seems to me that is when the watching is really needed. Things like that tell me that GOT team is struggling to get this story closed out.
Dolorous Methuselah,
hahahhaha!
This is pretty much the opposite of correct, particularly for storytelling. One of the #1 things that makes stories bad is wasted narrative: i.e., a lot of time developing characters or plots that wind up being irrelevant to the story. This is true for novels, TV, film, plays, etc. Sure, a few red-herrings are fine: but, really, a red-herring is a gun that gets used for something other than shooting. However, at the climax, things that got emphasis earlier in the tale should be important (or have been important), and there should be nothing important that has not been in some way introduced. (That is Deus ex Machina, and although it certainly is staple in fantasy, it also is a big reason why most fantasy is so bad.)
Whether characters are falling into different modes like Greek Tragedy or something else also is critical to quality storytelling. At this point, pretty much every mode has been invented – no, George R. R. Martin is not some genius who is going to invent a new character mode – so, if we are watching a good story, then we should be able to spot the general mode. (And, no, “Martin does not like tropes” does not pertain to this: tropes are something else altogether.) Now, it might not be Greek Tragedy: but, I tend to agree that Jaime’s arc smacks of it, or of something similar.
People often complain that this reduces storytelling to paint-by-numbers. However, it does no: it makes storytelling a two-part process in which one first establishes the lines, and then colors within the lines that the storyteller established in such a way that the particular picture is not obvious until the end. Not firing guns, not following character arcs, arbitrary plot shifts, etc., are all scribbling crayons over the lines.
Do you know what got to me. Which scares me.
Season 1: the character who will mostly survive the season must be ned. He’s the heart and what drives the story. End season. Death
Season 3: yeah Robb is finally doing great he got his wive, he just got the allies back with the freys. Nothing can go bad. Lannisters will get what they’re deserve. Robb drives the story. Ow wait. Robb dies. And cat dies.
And many more.
Season 8: jon dany Arya can’t possible die. They are the most important characters now. They are needed for the endgame.
Somehow this scares me. That one of these 3 will die and that that is the biggest shocking moment where they talked about would happen in season 8. The dead of somebody we would expect to outlive them all.
Bran had a bunch of birds at the Wall when that happened. Who knows, maybe we are at the point where even Bran cannot coax living things near there. Or perhaps Bran has simply erred and had his birds looking in the wrong places. Or maybe someone just left him by the tree and he’d been shouting for hours with nobody listening to him!
I agree that Gollum fell victim when he accidentally found the ring that immediately started destroying him. So you are right in that he was unfortunate. That ring was like an unstoppable malignancy for him. He was a “baddie” only in the sense that he was a major obstacle in Frodo’s way.
Thirty times? Hmmmm.
Hahhaaa! Yes, that must be it. He has been shouting for hours and no-one has listened.
We disagree. That is cool.
Creative work has structure but does not run on rails/lines like a train.
If I gave the impression that I thought Sapochnik was lying, I apologize, that was not my intent. My intent was to assert that, at least with U.S. film union contracts, you can work seven days a week. Do I think anyone worked all 55 days? No. But I can easily see some crew members working two weeks (14 days) straight without qualms. Maybe even longer if they were prone to masochism.
It should have been pretty obvious that Ned was a faux protagonist. The really big tell was how oblique Ned was when discussing his past: had he been a true protagonist, then he would have provided details on the level that Tyrion, Jon, Daenerys, etc., in order to fully develop his character and set up a major arc that could mean something at the end.
Similarly, I doubt that many people saw Robb as driving the story by Season 3. Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion and Arya (and even Sansa, Jaime, Davos & Brienne) all were contributing much more to the story and showing much stronger parallelisms in their arcs.
At this point, we are at the close. We’ve had 7 years of dynamic development, with a particular emphasis on 5 or 6 characters. That dynamic development has been creating the story all of this time: and if that character evolution does not have a big payoff at the climax of the story, then we are witnessing terrible storytelling.
Put another way? Arya was on a “higher level” than Ned & Robb from the start. If she just dies without that arc leading to some huge “damned if you do, damned if you do not” choice at the climax, then Martin, Benioff & Weiss have messed up royally.
Actually, it does: and a huge part of storytelling is setting up the rails. Ideas calling for the train to use rails that we have not seen, for vehicle to magically change from a train to a plane, or for the destination to be somewhere that was never mentioned on any itinerary are ideas that we can dismiss!
Let us disengage on this topic. That is how wonderful the world is – lots of space to live freely.
FYI – I’ve added the review of S8Ep2 by Alt Shift X. You can find it here at:
https://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-season-8-episode-2-knight-seven-kingdoms-video-recap-roundup/#comments
Wimsey,
As a show-only fan, I figured Ned’s goose was cooked once he warned Cersei to leave town with her incest bastard kids before getting his own daughters safely out of the zone of danger; and then changed the wording of Robert’s will. After the death of Mycah (due to Joffrey’s sadism and lies), Ned didn’t seem to care, and told Arya that Sansa “must take his [Joffrey’s] side even when he is wrong.” After ignoring red flags his own daughter spotted, I was not thrilled about his choices or his future prospects, even though he himself had told Arya “we’ve come to a dangerous place.”
I didn’t and don’t know how his character was presented in the books. I just sensed he’d put himself and his daughters at risk unnecessarily, and it would catch up with him somehow.
Mango,
Saturday night and I may be pulling an all-nighter years after I thought I’d never have to do that again. I’m taking a break now.
Work blows. But I couldn’t turn down someone who’d drop everything at a moment’s notice and do the same for me. I’d need a much better excuse than “but…but… this is the big GoT episode!” (He’s never seen the show.)
Mango,
Because Bran is like a computer with a crappy modem. Half the time he tries to go online, the screen says “Sorry. Your internet connection has been lost.” Or when emails don’t show up until hours after they’ve been sent unless you shut down and restart your computer. (Yes, I’m bitching about my own computer connections.)
Besides, I thought it was set up that Bran still hasn’t mastered his powers.
I remember the time when I used to say Dothraki and Unsullied will be the ones who will help fight against the Army of the Dead…
How the ghost grass refers to the snow and long night …
How it was Dany’s destiny to fight..some people didn’t believe the idea…they don’t know about winter and they will not stand a chance and so on ..it will be easy if dragons can kill the WW…too easy of and end..
Some even said Dothraki will not come to westeros when I said she will unite all khalasar and bring them to North..
looking at the episode and how everything has been set in motion ..Iam happy that so far I got everything true..
But now we have another scenario of This will be the end of Dany’s entire army and how she will lose everything..I do hope it’s the not the case and prove them wrong again because Dothraki and Unsullied are the ones who is most suitedto fight the wights and WW…they are skilled in the archery which will surely help them and Unsullied I don’t have to say about their skills..
AT THE end of the day I do hope there will be a scene where some of the characters and North in general come to realize how much Dany and her dragons and Dothraki and Unsullied have helped them and how they would have all died of not for her and her army ..
Mango,
Yeah its my favorite movie. If I feel shit I watch them. And every time and could cry my emotions out. I love those movies.
Wimsey,
Well the casual viewers saw those as the driving forces of the story. Ned was the one finding everything out about the lannisters so he must be the main character he even had the most chapters in book 1.
After that Robb becomes the embodiment of the one who is going to destroy the lannisters. Look at reaction clips from red wedding. Many stated he was the one for them at that moment. Some even say the show is over now.
For most back then the show was about destroying the lannisters. Yes if you look closely you could see that they weren’t the main characters but for casual viewers they were.
As for dying now it all depends. Arya could die if she uses her power and change her face somehow. Maybe defeat of a white walker.
Dany and jon could both die, especially dany. I don’t think they will but still you never know with grrm and D&D cooked up.
The biggest plottwist is still coming, maybe it’s tied to the death of one of them.
the conversation itself is not the hung gun. but let Bran tell Tyrion all or some of his visions we already know about: they would be the hung gun. Tyrion just needs to come to conclusions no one has had before, et voila, the gun is fired.
Ten Bears,
I sense you you have the flue or a migraine now.
But I think you’re a great person taking on responsibility like that. Not everyone will do that.
Dragonbringer,
I think it was already clear that I was headed there seasons ago that dany will help jon. I only don’t think dragons can kill a white walker only the wights.
death by chickenfire,
What if he did tell everything about the white walkers and also about Jon? And tyrion is going to plot with varys against Dany.
Kevin1989,
Tyrion was asking Bran about Bran’s journey. I don’t think it’s likely Bran would have got into Jon’s heritage. It could have been a short conversation. Bran usually gets right to the point. Have you ever spoken with someone who starts at the very beginning and gives you every detail? They get into all the “she saids and he saids” of the story… When people talk like that it actually drives me a bit nuts. There are others who just get to the point without getting into all of those details. Bran usually just blurts out a key phrase like “chaos is a ladder”. I would have hoped he spent at least an hour talking about Meera and how she was able to pull him on the sled all by herself through the snow while being chased by the white walkers… Or Hodor’s sacrifice… But Bran did have something he saw in Tyrion when he gave him the Bran stare out in the courtyard. Bran definitely saw something to come with Tyrion.
Mango,
Same. Have to go see my folks. Only day of the week available to do so and they don’t have basic cable let alone HBO. Not a big deal. It will be on DVR when I get home.
On the subject of Tyrion, besides the bran chat, the stupid mistakes he’s made… i think he is being set up to finally do something very clever that will save the day.
Anyone else have this eerie feeling today with the Battle of Winterfell looming tonight?
Tron79,
Bran doesn’t talk like that anymore, he is very to the point. He will not talk an hour about Meera, he probably can talk the whole journey from season 1 till season 4 just in 5 minutes. Maybe 10 max. The way he talks now it feels more like a summary to a story.
They probably talked for a long time so it’s safe to assume he told Tyrion the summary of everything he went through and Tyrion will focus on the WW and Aegon part.
Jack Bauer 24,
It’s going to be a long day….
The key to beating the night king is the red woman, and jon and the swords, so unless she turns up in the battle in ep 3 he wont be defeated yet,
Winterfell should be mostly in ruins, they will run. re group and that is where i think we will see the red woman and others and some kind of plan coming into play, 4 will be like the end of avengers infinity where they are all broken,
i reckon were see the wolf pack come to the rescue too probably as they are escaping,
what i am interested in is dany and her story, she has helped them rather than take the throne and has got no appreciation at all from any of them, even jon is treating her bad, so with her losing most of her army and more hostility after the battle when they know who jon is, and her army mostly defeated, it and the golden company etc making plans i could see her going against all of them, and i wouldn’t blame her either, if i was her I’d of already called them ungrateful an left them at winterfell lol
Ten Bears,
It sounds like you’re a very good person who has their priorities right😊
As Maester Aemon once said “Work is easy when there is no choice involved. But there comes a time, in every man’s life when he must choose between duty and tv….”
kevin1989,
I had an impression that Tyrion was asking about the journey of the 3-Eyed Raven rather than Bran as an individual. If not, Tyrion should understand that Bran is no longer Bran and shift his focus on the 3-Eyed Raven personality. It’s easier for Tyrion: the Starks (including Jon) still see the 3-Eyed Raven as Bran – their brother who acquired some weird qualities, but is still their brother. Sam is following the same line. However, Tyrion is more openminded and intelligent, he is more capable of accepting this rather unpleasant truth that 3-Eyed Raven basicly killed Bran and used his boddy to smuggle himself into Winterfell – all for the greater good of destroying the Night King, but still… One way or another, Tyrion’s intelligence and ruthlessness should save the day and that should be connected to Bran/3-Eyed Raven.
We don’t get any specifics, but as I wrote earlier it is very conspicuous what Tyrion said to Jamie before the strategy meeting:
“So…we‘re going to die…at Winterfell. Not the death I would have chosen. […] At least Cersei won‘t get to murder me. I‘m sure I‘ll feel some satisfaction denying her that pleasure while I‘m being ripped apart by dead men. Maybe after I‘m dead I march down to King‘s Landing and rip her apart.”
And what Tyrion said after he talked with Bran:
“I think we might live.”
🤔
Yep. Some things like family and helping out a co-worker in need come first.
There are sometimes options – a couple years back, when I was in and out of the hospital a lot, I’d sometimes watch on the 3″x 5″ screen of my phone and was happy to be able to do so.
Still, if you know you’ll be home soon, I can see your choice to wait.
Just catching up on comments, I’m going to guess that I’m joining you in a minority…I won’t be surprised to see a major wipeout, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if only 3-5 died in this episode. It seems like there are a lot of people who will condemn the show for a too-happy ending if there is less than a massacre of named characters. How much of Westeros population is already gone from these wars, or doomed by the destruction of resources?
I suppose people need it to dwarf the Red Wedding in the deadliness of a single event? BotB was on par as a massacre…we just didn’t know their names (or care, because they were on the “other” side).
I would expect the books will have a lot more characters at this point in the story to kill – the show introduces fewer [nailed it!] and trims them sooner, due to logistics. Some secondary characters have to survive don’t they? Brienne needs to write in that book!
The odd thing is that I am somewhat prepared to lose characters…but the sight and sound of the horses and Ghost (and even the dragons!) going down are the stuff of my nightmares.
death by chickenfire,
I wonder if Bran told Tyrion he knew about how Tyrion killed Shae and Tywin. I can see Bran turning Tyrion’s questions back on himself if Tyrion gets too inquisitive. But at some point Bran or Sam is going to have to confirm Jon’s heritage to the larger group. At least Sansa, Arya, Davos.
Sorry to say it, but I think it’s gonna happen.
Why I believe Arya will wear one of their faces to kill Cersei: During the scene where she meets with the Lannister soldiers in the woods, she not only tells them her intent to kill the Queen, she is introduced to the scene by the song “hands of gold are always cold but a woman’s hands are warm”. This song is tied to Arya because she will not have/be a golden hand when she kills Cersei.
Why I believe Cersei is not pregnant: the woods witch said she would have three children who all die. Cersei knows this. She found another way to have children, with Qyburn’s help, and they’re experimenting on Septa Unella and possibly Ellaria (thank god Yara wasn’t imprisoned in the dungeons). This is the plan they have for Dany. Tormund clued us in when he talked about having monster babies with Brienne, who would rule the world. Papa is Gregor Clegane.
That’s been my bet for that line. Whether the NK shows up later 🤷♀️ but seems possible Dany breaks the plan (it does seem silly to not help the armies, like the NK doesn’t already know, or suspect, they will be there?) then the NK shows up later and it’s just a big mess.
Ten Bears,
Pretty much the same; tho I was much more sympathetic to his plight while reading than I was watching. I had to assume he’d really never realized how things work in real life – but after 18 years you’d think he had gained some knowledge Aw welll, weve discussed this many times. But most of season one was spot on with the first book
Wimsey,
I was trying to argue that the story & plot won’t simply end with defeating the night king (and we should expect something plotwise like the scouring of the shire, albeit with more character involvement for the story). I wasn’t trying to provoke (another) lecture, I quite well realize that GoT is much more like War and Peace than it is like LOTR…
looking forward to the customary sex scene, i am thinking a three way with ayra and the hound mid battle their eyes meet and bang its on, maybe a few white walkers getting in on the action too,
or some night king jon action they do stare at eachother a lot , so possible
Wimsey,
I don’t think the NK will have deep motivations. I think he and the AOTD are just meant to be an unstoppable cataclysmic force… and the real story is about the decisions of humanity in the face of such a force. How some come together, some come apart, some scheme, some flee, etc.
I absolutely agree. I have been one of the big proponents of the NK falling this episode. If he doesn’t, it won’t bother me as long as it is done well. I really just need to put my faith in D&D. They have done an amazing job the last 8+ years, I think I can believe they will end this story on a high note.
i have to add something to the idea i had in my first response to you, about the Tyrion & Bran chat possibly informing Tyrion about hung guns we already know about. i was not thinking far enough when i wrote this. i want to correct what i wrote and lean a bit more out of the window:
this short scene has the potential to become a massive game changer and was therefore placed right where it had to be placed – at the end of a strategy brainstorm including everyone who’s thoughts might be of worth.
Tyrion’s last few plans didn’t work out the way it was expected. this is of course not because the plans were stupid. it is because opponents had better plans or, things went down a way no one could foresee. does this make Tyrion a bad strategist or put his abilities in analysis or coming up with plans into a bad light? surely not.
Bran can see things. whenever and whereever he wants. i’m sure he’s the only one who can even see GoT for free when it airs.
i once called him “google on wheels”, and that is not too far from the truth. he gets all the results, but he cannot completely sort them or put them into context. there’s always a bit of information missing for him to see the whole picture. Sam’s assistance in becoming clear about Jon’s heritage is the best example. it needed a book reader to complete the picture.
what if Tyrion would have an assistant who could check out risks of plans he makes? what if Bran had someone educated in history and gifted in strategy who could somewhat direct his magic three eyes to the times or places information is needed about?
i see this short scene as the introduction of an intelligence power duo. a gun hung many times (is that variation allowed anyway?) and now fired so silently… with hanging just the next gun, as the begin of their chat marks the end of a meeting on strategies which could as well have ended without these two sitting down together. this might forecast that it will be them who have the final plan to bring down the NK. and Cersei. or at least Tucker Carson.
ash,
Ned’s decisions were all with the assumption that Robert would be on the throne. I don’t believe he would have taken certain actions if he thought something would happen in the immediate future to Robert
death by chickenfire,
I think you are totally right about this. D&D don’t have enough time this season to put in filler- that scene was pregnant (sorry) with possibilities. That being said, putting in the scene in season 7 where Sansa went to Bran for help about LF really would have helped…..
Whichever way it turns out it promises to be a very intense show, looking forward to watching it tomorrow with my eyes wide open!
Direcat,
True, but once Robert died, he should have realized the danger he was in as wel as his daughters. But then, we would not have this great story if he’d done so
ash,
Agreed. I still want a redo with Renly where Ned decides to go along with him.
I do still miss him though.
Didn’t Ned try to get his family moved out of Kings Landing? At any rate, Ned could not fully appreciate the danger in which he placed himself because he made the classic mistake of assuming that everyone’s value systems were, fundamentally at least, the same as his. Ned was genuinely surprised that Cersei did not flee the city with her children. Had he understood Cersei, then Ned might have done things differently. However, Ned did not.
(And, of course, as you mention: this is a story; Ned’s purpose in this story, other than to fool us that he as a main character, was to set up the circumstances to put the real protagonists in all sorts of dilemmas.)
Then key parts of the conversation at least point to this needed to be shown. Tyrion is a protagonist: this would represent a major dilemma for him, and we need to be shown how he thinks through to where he winds up.
Wimsey,
He also thought he secured the City Watch so I don’t Believe that he was unaware of the danger that they were in. His biggest error was believing Littlefinger.
It would have killed the suspense of the subsequent scene. We needed to think that it was possible that Sansa really had turned on Arya, and thus that Littlefinger really had succeeded. If we see Sansa learn from Bran the extend of LF’s deeds, then there is zero suspense going into the scene. We got what we needed when Bran repeated LF’s last line to Ned.
Tyrion and Bran’s conversation would not be analogous to Sansa & Bran’s conversation, at least in the conspiracy theories being floated here. Instead, it would be analogous to the conversations between Sansa & LF; both would represent the initial slipping of rocks that precipitate an avalanche. Sansa & Bran’s conversation was akin to the major valleys of the mountain directing where avalanche goes!
At any rate, I do not see why people are so desperate to see some arbitrary turn of events such as Tyrion betraying Daenerys out-of-the-blue. We’ve been given zero reasons for him to do so: and, no, Daenerys getting angry at Tyrion does not count, as Tyrion knows that: 1) monarchs are going to get angry when their chief ministers have screwed up; and, 2) Tyrion has repeatedly screwed up. At the very least, we need some equivalent of the “And then what does Arya become” scene that clarifies his thoughts, and we’ve gotten nothing like that.
I’m not sure that Ned had a “biggest” error in terms of individual actions: they were all catastrophic. But in a lot of ways, he made only one error, and he made it about 15 times.
Direcat,
Yes, but then he had no idea how dangerous LF was – not sure anyone really did. But he set the whole thing in motion with having lysa poison her husband.
Wimsey,
No kidding!
I think the whole conflict between the two sisters seemed off (which should have been our first clue); just remember not liking it at that point In retrospet,
I think you are right, that did add to the suspense, put us all alittle unbalanced
Ah, I think the opposite: given that the two really did not like each other when we last saw them together, it would have seemed off if they had not somehow come to terms with their basic animosity. Arya in particular needed to learn that Sansa was not the pretty airhead who wanted to be fairytale princess of 6+ years ago, and Sansa in particular needed to learn that Arya was not the unruly and socially/culturallyy inappropriate child of 6+ years ago. After all, neither woman had any particular reason to think that the other woman was not just the girl she had known.
(If anything, then I think that Arya swung too far & too fast to “Team Sansa”: but people are pendulums, and we do tend to overcompensate upon realizing our mistakes.)
Wimsey,
I am not going to invoke Chekhov here… but I won’t be surprised if at some point, Tyrion comes up with a good idea based off some knowledge acquired during his conversation with Bran. All he would have to say to reference the conversation that we all know happened, would be… “Bran told me…”
For instance. Perhaps Bran told Tyrion how he witnessed the creation of the NK, and Tyrion, in a future scene, floats the idea that one way to stop him may have to do with removing the obisidan from his heart.
I think a scenario such as this is plausible, without falling into lazy storytelling. It would also help to reinforce the monster of a mind, that seems to have been stunted as of late, that we keep hearing about. He may also come to some realizations in the crypts while down there hanging with the women and children, perhaps just in time to save some of them…
Sister Kisser,
If the show had done things like that in the past, then I would think this to be a possibility. However, it never has. At this point, my thought is that if we do not know it can happen and/if we do not have prior examples of B&W using that type of storytelling device or plot device, then we should not expect it to happen.
There is a long track record at this point: Jon warging into Ghost, the Old Gods reviving Jon, the Northern Lords all being prepared for the White Walkers and/or eager to fight the Boltons, etc., all were these sorts of ideas that relied on similar storytelling/plotting devices. Instead, we always got something that was among the list of things that was setup in advance. My thought is: why would they change now?
(And, no, I don’t consider Sansa’s unshown scene with Bran to be an example of this: the key scene there was LF walking Sansa to Arya becoming Lady of Winterfell; and part of the reason why Sansa & Arya never got along is that being Lady of Anything was the last thing that Arya wanted!)
I must say it’s rewarding to read that Benioff and Weiss have a much bigger vision of how this was going to play out and how the director had to whittle it downwards. And it sounds like this is something that happens on the reg. It means even in their heads the story is much larger than we see and generally write it so.
This should effectively stop the small club haters that keep saying Martin always makes them bigger and wanted to include everything in the eps when he used to write for them.
You know who you two you are, I’m not naming names.
Luka, I used to like you.
This has to be Luka’s crack habit kicking in…. ☹️
(I am seeing Avengers this evening right before Thrones; it is quite possible that I’ll be a wreck come midnight.)
Wimsey,
Well, obviously, you make a good point. I suppose I am looking for more reason for ending the “strategery” scene in such a way. Did we need more exposition on Tyrion’s character? We all know he has a curious mind. We all know that Bran’s experience has been “stranger than most” Why devote this time to showing us Tyrion posting up with Bran?
Also. Even before we saw Melisandre’s conversation with Thoros, I had no inclination that Jon would warg into ghost. That would have been Deus ex Machina. I get that the prologue of Dance may have set that possibility up, but the show had done nothing to set up Jon’s warging abilities. It was clear that Mel was gonna give the kiss of fire, or life, or whatever they call it.
I wouldn’t see Tyrion’s use of information gleaned from a conversation we know he had with Bran, to be analogous to the Jon warging-for-life-out-of-nowhere scenario.
It’s surprising that even now, in this final season, there’s still things they didn’t have the time/money for. It’s pretty amazing that a tv-show can get so big, though.
Day of the Starks
Wonder what title is for 803? I was originally thinking “The Long Night” or “Battle of Winterfell”, but they already used “Winterfell” for the premiere and “The Long Night” might be saved for the sequel.
Jack Bauer 24,
I think The Long Night is the safest best we have for tonight’s episode. I would actually be surprised if they go any other route.
So Sapochnik said that 3/4/5 are like a beginning, middle and end of an arc. So just think tonight is just the beginning 😮
It’s even tougher to guess titles if they’re going to choose ones that are rather arbitrary and/or on specific scenes that we have no clue about. Who at this time in the story was going to guess “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” for an episode? We’re all thinking big picture with the story, the war(s) and kings and queens, and they pull out a title based on a specific scene because they liked it. We did too, but still not a guessable title. 😛
My guess is The Great War
Clob,
Oh yeah. I would rarely stick my neck out and guess a title. This is the only one I’ve been willing to do that for… though I could see it being next weeks as well, if there is an escape and retreat, happening next ep following the fall of winterfell.
Sister Kisser,
I think “The Long Night” is a very good possibility too. I don’t think they’d shy away from it even IF the prequel wants to use that for the show’s name. It may even make more sense to use it because it does harken back to the last time they were in this situation, which is supposedly part of the prequel.
Ok. I’ve got a new alternate wish for how the NK goes out. (My primary one is Arya with the VS dagger).
Bronze Yohn Royce should be the one to either kill the NK or at least should be the last one killed by the NK or one of the White Walkers.
If I’m remembering right, his son, Waymar Royce, who was a member of the Night’s Watch, was the first one killed on the show. Old Bronze Yohn and his magical armor should get some payback, or at least come full circle and have a Royce be the first one and the last one killed by those guys.
Jack Bauer 24,
“Oh No, Not Again”
I think that a Stark soldier named Kyle should kill the NK and scream “I did it for Timmy!!!!!”
That’s a great guess. It could also be called The Night’s Watch since in a way they are all in it now. Sons of Craster doesn’t sound very ominous, so I doubt they’ll go there. lol
Other titles that won’t happen
“Safe in the Crypts”
“Everybody Lives”
“Bran’s Awesome Plan”
Me = not dealing with this. 😳
RG,
😂😂
any ideas about what happens to arya this episode?
Hmmmm, has some incredible fighting sequences, amazes Aejon with her prowess, (and Sandor), loses Gendry who becomes a wight, saves some people in the crypts and sees the dawn.
That one is actually the exact opposite, because the show spent several seasons telling us that the Starks mattered to the North, and that the Boltons’ situation was precarious, and the North “would never forget”, and so on, until suddenly nobody gave a damn and the North was quite happy forgetting.
Direcat,
was thinking about how she gets the head injury
Reek,
Kicking ass. Hopefully not taking any names.
Reek,
Oh gotcha
Maybe on the ramparts where she loses the spear? Fighting a WW? She doesn’t have it running in the crypts when she’s running as I recall.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bwz6M7IArGB/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=mrato83pyu6j
Hmmmm…
Jack Bauer 24,
interesting
I still like “not today”
Or some new guesses.
“Under the Weirwood tree”
“Kill the bastards anyway”
“Scream 5”
“Pointy Ends”. (There are two ends on Arya’s new weapon. )
No, the Starks spent a lot of time telling us that. We got a lot of indications that the Northerners were just like everyone else: “what have you done for me lately?”
Jack Bauer 24,
Maybe the captains daughter shows up with Theons bastard….
How do you find all this stuff? Thanks for sharing
I like that one too
Tron79,
“What is Dead Often Needs to Be Killed Again”
“You Only Die 2 or 3 Times”
“Flanders Was a Zombie?”
“Jenny of Oldstones” is now stuck in my head, remixed with “Time in a Bottle.”
High in the halls of the kings who are gone,
Jenny would dance with her ghosts.
I’d save every day like a treasure and then,
again, I would spend them with you.
Wimsey,
No, it was not the Starks telling us that. Tyrion and Tywin Lannister thought that, as did Stannis Baratheon and Davos Seaworth, as did Olenna Tyrell, Petyr Baelish, Varys, and Roose Bolton — indeed, Roose was still going on about it shortly before he was murdered. The whole reason for both of Sansa’s marriages was because Sansa was supposedly politically valuable; likewise, why Stannis and Davos wanted Jon on their team. The show spent several years telling us that the North was a powder keg that a Stark could ignite, until Season 6 when suddenly nobody cared.
Well Miguel was spot on with how he described the episode here. I’ve watched it four times now and enjoyed more each one. It’s fantastically directed and acted throughout, there are a few minor complaints with the narrative/plot but if there is a better eighty minutes of television battle I will be amazed.
Cracking prediction in hindsight you nailed it!