Alfie Allen on Reek & the Boltons; Ian McElhinney & Jacob Anderson on that big finish

Alfie Allen (Theon Greyjoy) took to zap2it to discuss Reek, Winterfell and his good friends, The Boltons.

On returning to the set of Winterfell, Alfie says:

It’s crazy. Winterfell was sort of burned down by me — by the character Theon — at the end of Season 2. … It’s been cool going back to Winterfell this year. There’s a relationship with a certain someone that happens, and it’s been an absolute joy to work with this person.”

We can’t wait to see what’s going to happen this season, since winter may finally be coming back to House Stark.

On the Boltons grotesque nature:

The Boltons are definitely emerging as a superpower within the ‘Game of Thrones’ world. They’re just so at ease and almost regal about the way they treat people and the way they just are. I mean, their banner is a skinned man, for Christ’s sake. They’re not the nicest bunch of people, but they’re completely at ease in that fact, which kind of makes it interesting to watch.

 

Despite Theon’s betrayal of the Starks, Alfie doesn’t view his character as a “bad guy”:

I never really saw him as a villain. I think that’s an HBO trait with a lot of their shows is there’s never any good or bad characters. Everybody’s got their own sort of motivations or path that they want to go down, and I would say that Theon’s one of more human characters in the show rather than just a villain who makes mistakes,” he says. “I would not really put him down as a villain, but I would definitely not put him down as a good guy either. He’s just a normal human being who makes mistakes.

Head on over to zap2it for the full story!

** SPOILERS FOR S5E4 “SONS OF THE HARPY” and S5E5 “KILL THE BOY”  to FOLLOW! **

Barristan

Fans both Sullied and Unsullied alike were shocked when the Sons of the Harpy ambushed Dany’s army leading to an epic and bloody scrap in the streets of Meereen. They were more shocked when Game of Thrones killed yet another character who is still breathing in A Song of Ice and Fire.

As it turns out, so was actor Ian McElhinney who even went as far as to ask to the writers to spare Barristan.

I did talk to them about it. I gave some arguments of my own why I thought Barristan was kind of important in Daenerys’ story, important enough that he should stay in Daenerys story, and he didn’t… It’s their call at the end of the day, so you kind of have to accept whatever the decision is, but I did certainly sort of ask them further about it.

McElhinney told HuffingtonPost that he still respects the writers decision.

At the end of the day, it’s up to Dan [Weiss] and David [Benioff]. Their decision was a lot of what happens to Daenerys in this series is sort of predicated a bit on what happens to Barristan, so there you go. It’s their call at the end of the day, so you kind of have to accept whatever the decision is, but I did certainly sort of ask them further about it.

HuffingtonPost also sat down with Grey Worm actor Jacob Anderson for his thoughts on the climactic scene:

It was like a mix of excitement and fear. I was excited because I was going to get to do another fight … and also there’s a slight fear of, you know, I don’t know what happens at the end. I was reading it like, I don’t know how this is gonna end, you know? It was left on a cliffhanger.”

goo273

It looks like we wait until tomorrow night to officially find out the full fates of our soldiers but assuming that was Barristan’s last stand, he did indeed die a knight.

Head on over to HuffingtonPost for the full interview and let us know what you thought in the comments below!

145 Comments

  1. dragonreborn,

    Not everyone did so let’s keep it in spoiler coding, okay?

    But yeah, there’s a reason why Ian McElhinney is ya know, giving an interview about his guy being dead.
  2. I still think the ending of the last episode wasn’t that great.
    Actually this season it happened the first time that I watched Game of Thrones and I was disappointed. And I don’t think I am the only one.
    I just hope they get the show back on track…

  3. Wait…so people are so obsessed with being unspoiled they don’t even watch the previews?

  4. Jason,

    Yes, lots. Because the previews give away way too much sometimes.

    I actually recommend it for the people who really want to stay unspoiled. And people should skip the Previously-Ons before each episode as well if they want to be surprised because they ruin so many damned returns (like Lancel and Jaqen this season).

  5. Jason,

    It’s a tradition! Brotherhood Without Previews has existed since the days at the other place. I don’t watch any previews after the series starts, and no “last time on” either.

  6. I still think it was rather unlike the norm to spoil the outcome in the Ep5 trailer immediately after the show. It’s not like D&D to not want people wondering what happens. But hey, they’re playing the game. 😉

    Still can’t figure out if Alfie is

    trolling about the Boltons being around for ‘years to come’, or if they really are safe…for now.
  7. I can’t wait to hear Alfie finally utter a line this series! They’ve been building it up so much, with him present in almost every Winterfell scene but silent… I wonder if his first words all season will actually be to Sansa.

  8. So

    Barristan is dead but Greyworm survives? Going by the last scene I could see both being dead or both just falling unconscious due to their injuries. Ian confirmed that Barristan is dead though, Jacob not so much, so I take that as a confirmation that his character is still alive.
  9. Sue the Fury,

    I dont think watching Lancel and Jaqen in the previews ruins anything, it helps the Unsullied remember who they are after 3 years without seeing them.

  10. Josla,

    I feel like Grey Worm is going to survive long enough to be sung to sleep by Missandei on his death bed…

    Entirely speculation.

  11. Isn’t obvious that grey worm survives? You can see him kiss Missandei in one of the trailers. As far as I know that haven’t happened yet in any of the episodes that have aired. Or am I wrong?
  12. From the end sequence of Episode 4, my strong impression was that Barristan was dead and Grey Worm was gravely injured but not dead.

    The interviews suggest this too. Also, I will not be unhappy if Barristan’s needless death by the Harpys causes Daenerys to “Kill the girl”, and be a mother to her “children” again, and accept that they too are growing up.
  13. urangutan21,

    He/she just expressed that the last episode, especially ending was disappointing for the first time. And you chose to shit on him for what reason? Marking the last two books as “absolute worst” is not helpful to cover one’s urge to counterattack any criticism imo.

  14. Mine is the hairy,

    Grey Worm

    doesn’t kiss her in the trailers, she leans to kiss him while he lies still on a bed. We can’t even tell if he’s alive at that point. That said, I do think he survives at least a little while longer.

    And I really really wish they had coordinated the interviews after this episode better so it’s not one actor saying one thing, and one another as knowing whether Barristan is dead or not. Or better yet- I wish they hadn’t spoiled the damned cliffhanger in the next episode preview. That was sloppy and stupid.

  15. I think that D&D are

    rolling Daznak’s Pit and The Battle of Fire into a single event (more or less)

    this season, and the ball just got rolling in the last episode.

  16. How do I temper my hype for Daznak’s Pit… because I can’t :'(…..
    I can’t wait to see the youtube reaction vids… people will loose their minds!
  17. Sue the Fury,

    I think it’s more likely that Barristan’s death, at least, was not written as a cliffhanger. Or seen as one by the guys behind the scenes. Still involves some sloppiness, but I think more on the direction of that last sequence than the people who organize the interviews. I mean, it would be weird if McElhinney gave interviews for the episode in which all he does is lie down on a slab…
  18. Sue the Fury:
    Jason,

    Yes, lots. Because the previews give away way too much sometimes.

    I actually recommend it for the people who really want to stay unspoiled. And people should skip the Previously-Ons before each episode as well if they want to be surprised because they ruin so many damned returns (like Lancel and Jaqen this season).

    Lancel is back this season? Did I miss something? Checks castlist.. Holy cow that’s Lancel Lannister!?!

    Ah, who am I kidding, Lancel being back is easily the best thing of the season for me. Loving King’s Landing this season, it’s just so nice and everything’s so clear even with the few deviations.

    Cersei not listening to anybody with a bit of reason, the daydrinking, the fullthrottled catfight against the Tyrells, Tommen being stuck in the middle, her whole storyline with the faith beginning with Kevan noting that he pulled a Lannister: “Hey Cers, I lost control of my firstborn son, he’s all religious now, we should talk about this”, Cersei: “Wtf, do you think I care, I lost my kid” *sips cup*, cue up Lancel clearly stating: “Hey, remember how I was the one who you ordered to poison Bob, oh and the sex? Yeah, I joined this very pious group and.. that’s just not gonna fly with them”, Cersei: “What are you talking aboot? *sips cup* Lalalala, not hearing it, lalalala *hicup*”, goes to pious group’s leader: “Pssst! We’ve got a sinner in our midst!” High Sparrow: “I know! *giggles*”, Cersei: Yeah I know, totally gross! Want me to make sure you can get away with everything as long as you deem it sacrilege?”, High Sparrow: “You sure about that?”, Cersei: “Of course! Sinners must get what they deserve, don’t they? *winkwink*.. Two episodes later: High Sparrow: “Seize that woman! SHAVE HER HEAD!!! MAKE HER FEEL THE SHAME!!!!!”

    It’s going to be briljant! I know people on here during filming were making claims of probably going to feel for Cersei during her walk, but I’m not going to feel any remorse. I’m all giddy for it! 😀

    Also hoping for Tommen to get his life ended by Varys, just to up the stakes for S6. But if that happens, yeah, I’ll feel sorry for Cersei for that.. Tommen’s a good boy.

  19. Allen: “The Boltons are emerging as a superpower in the Game of Thrones world.” Translation: The Boltons will be dead by the end of the season. I like the Boltons and Stannis a lot, I don’t want either to die anytime soon.

    It is a bummer that McElhinney was so disappointed. He did a good job and deserved more, but at least he’s already moved onto something else.

    I helped make a Game of Thrones video podcast this week. On a technical level, it’s terrible. But if you’ll watch anything Game of Thrones related, it is 30 minutes of nerdy over-discussion, Between Two Ferns style:

  20. I am a bit mystified about Alfie’s quote about the Boltons.

    Everything in the TV-universe seems to be indicating a landslide win for Stannis.

    On the books, Roose has more men (though there are likely turncoats), the implicit backing of the crown and a not terribly-distant Lannister army, a tight alliance with the Freys, many northern hostages held by the Boltons, Freys, and Lannisters, and home field advantage, and F(Arya).

    On TV, Stannis apparently has the numbers, Roose just threw the (far-away) Lannisters in the trash, and the Freys and hostages have not been mentioned at all. Obviously he still holds the defensive advantage, and he has Sansa rather than F(Arya).

    I actually think that F(Arya) was superior even ignoring the spit-in-the-crown’s-eye element, as F(Arya) was suspected by many to be a fake, and thus nobody really cared what happened to her in Ramsay’s hands. TV-Roose has the real Sansa, and when Ramsay goes about raping or mutilating her, it is going to set the north on fire.

    Roose’s position is far worse on TV than it is in the books, and frankly, his position in the books looks bad enough as it is. I think most fans predict a cunning Stannis victory in early TWOW. I don’t see how TV-Roose can win. If he does, D&D are going to have to do a lot of explaining, as the details they have given us so far make such an outcome all but impossible.

  21. There’s a relationship with a certain someone that happens, and it’s been an absolute joy to work with this person.”

    We still don’t think this is Mance or Greatjon, do we? LOL Nice to see blossoming relationship confirmed. Remember this?

    Allen also gives us these tantalizing hints at season five:

    I can tell you that there will be characters crossing paths and interacting — especially in my storyline — who have never met, or have had just minute amounts of screentime together. That relationship blossoms, and the running theme of Season 5 is that you get so many different characters who were in different parts of the world crossing paths with each other.

    I could also say to you that Theon will definitely go through his trials and tribulations this season. And there may be, in some sort of Game of Thrones way, a light at the end of the tunnel for him. There’s definitely a moment or two — and one in particular — that will really blow people away.

    You guys should go back and read this thread. It’s hilarious. https://watchersonthewall.com/characters-never-met-will-crossing-paths-storyline-says-alfie-allen/#comment-249180

  22. Rygritte: We still don’t think this is Mance or Greatjon, do we? LOL Nice to see blossoming relationship confirmed. Remember this?

    You guys should go back and read this thread. It’s hilarious. https://watchersonthewall.com/characters-never-met-will-crossing-paths-storyline-says-alfie-allen/#comment-249180

    I don’t think it’s Mance, Cíaran is clearly done with the show. Unless he purposefully said he had a good time, to make this twist even more out of nowhere, even excluding the actual switch and mission at Castle Black. Also, I think there’s only a few characters with which Reek can have a blossoming relationship that are only this season crossing paths again:
    – A. Sansa
    – B. Gilly, if she does go along with Stannis
    – C. Brienne
    – D. Yara, in a shocking twist if Stannis has a run in with her in Deepwood, but I doubt she’s even in the season to be honest.

    That’s about it. The crossing paths can clearly be seen as also crossing paths with Stannis and Littlefinger, but he’s not having any blossoming relations with them I’m sure.

  23. Rygritte,

    Brilliant! One commenter in particular dug their heels in so many times and told so many people how stupid they were for thinking Sansa->WF that I can only assume he is gradually working his way through a Hodor sized humble pie. I’m sure you know who I mean.

  24. Waxfoot,

    I didn’t read back through that thread, bit I had been wondering where King Tommen has been. A lot of us owe him a “you were right, and I was wrong.” I include myself.

  25. Ser Oromis Locke,

    I think it has to be Sansa. I don’t recall any scenes of them together in Season 1 before everyone split up, and we know from upcoming episode descriptions that they will speak soon.

  26. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
    Waxfoot,

    I didn’t read back through that thread, bit I had been wondering where King Tommen has been.A lot of us owe him a “you were right, and I was wrong.”I include myself.

    True, but you would have to distinguish carefully between two claims.

    “It makes no sense for Sansa to replace F(Arya)” is still true to this day. “D&D would never do so something so incomprehensible as replacing F(Arya) with Sansa” has indeed been proven false.

    Not only is Sansa’s plot a poor strategic move on her part, LF’s part, and Roose’s part, but it completely upends the entire strategic situation in the north with respect to the upcoming battle and the rational behavior of many of the minor players. I suppose you can argue that it is “good enough” and that the plot holes have been papered over well enough too weather the storm, but they are most certainly there and run very deep. Even the most casual unsullied were smirking about LF’s cluelessness concerning Flay-My-Way-Across-The-North Ramsay.

  27. Even the most casual unsullied were smirking about LF’s cluelessness concerning Flay-My-Way-Across-The-North Ramsay.

    Yet we still do not know if that is true or was LF playing at not knowing. It remains to be seen.

  28. Chad Brick,

    Sansa needs something to do this season. End of story.

    This is not a documentary . The passivity and waiting are not what made ​​this show great .

    Everyone risk. LF is not an exception. He is not unconvincingly smart as in the books, and because of that it will be more believable when he fails.

    And that will happen.

  29. Waxfoot,
    Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Just read thru that thread. King Tommen called it quickly and was correct. And, yes, there were a few that argued against it, one commenter in particular. Over the last few seasons, a number of commenters have impressed me with their intuition.

  30. Chad Brick,

    I’m just turning off my brain with the why of it, and will just try and enjoy the drama and acting. Sansa being there definately ups the drama, which is what D&D were going for, because they have to know that it makes little sense.

  31. Chad Brick,

    There is no reason for viewers to expect that Littlefinger should be aware of Ramsay’s extracurricular activities. For one, I doubt LF has extensive spy network in the North informing him of everything that happens in that gray waste Northerners call home. Seriously, even in the books Manderly managed to build a whole damn fleet without anyone in the South apparently knowing about it (now that is incredulous).

    Secondly, there was no Hornwood affair in GoT and no large Northern army cut to pieces by traitorous scum below the walls of Winterfell. Ramsay’s flaying and torturing of innocent people is more or less a hush-hush thing barely anyone knows about. Yes, he flayed some Ironborn at Moat Cailin, but so what? Those were foreign invaders that met an unfortunate and grisly fate perfectly in tune with age-old Bolton practices.

    Again, at the time Sansa-Ramsay marriage was arranged, LF had no way of knowing what psycho Ramsay is. It’s obvious even his fellow Northerners know next to nothing about him. And frankly, why should they? Until several months ago he was just a bastard son of a mid-tier Northern lord.

  32. mariamb:
    Waxfoot,
    Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Just read thru that thread. King Tommen called it quickly and was correct. And, yes, there were a few that argued against it, one commenter in particular. Over the last few seasons, a number of commenters have impressed me with their intuition.

    He also said that there will be no Battle of Meeren and I believe he is right.

    But where is he now? I’m interested to hear what he has to say about Battle of Winterfell and will we see that battle this season.

  33. Darkstar,

    I read an interview with Gillen on HBO where, when he was asked whether after 5 seasons, is he still surprised by LF’s decisions, his “deal with the Bolton’s, for instance,” he responded:

    “I was surprised by it because it was new. But it excited me. It’s always nice to enter in a new world and interact with new people and characters you may not have interacted with. Especially if you are a character like Littlefinger who has caused ripples which radiate outwards and affect everybody. It’s always interesting to just show up in their world and play dumb.”

    For me, that points to him knowing more about Ramsay than he’s letting on.

  34. Mr Fixit:
    Chad Brick,

    Again, at the time Sansa-Ramsay marriage was arranged, LF had no way of knowing what psycho Ramsay is..

    And even if he knows what psycho Ramsay is, that wouldn’t change anything.

    If Ramsey hurts Sansa, LF can use that to turn lords from the North against the Boltons.

    He is in win-win position.

  35. Chad Brick,

    I thought that too, but when you look back at that big ass army Roose has back in episode 8 of season 4, I think he might not be in such a bad position after all. He is defending Winterfell, which is known to be a strong castle defensive wise. None of those soldiers appeared to be from any other houses, so they should all be loyal to him.
  36. One of Roose Bolton’s leeches,

    I have a feeling part of what Sansa will be up to is turning some folks inside Winterfell against the Boltons, as I think there are some northerners in there. I have no evidence for that, and I don’t think the old lady who told her The North Remembers really counts, but if she’s there, I think there are bound to be others.

    If that’s correct, that could certainly aid Stannis, which is another reason, in addition to thinking Stannis isn’t dumb enough to turn the North against him by burning Sansa, if Stannis wins, Sansa has nothing to fear from him.

  37. mau: And even if he knows what psycho Ramsay is, that wouldn’t change anything.

    If Ramsey hurts Sansa, LF can use that to turn lords from the North against the Boltons.

    He is in win-win position.

    How exactly does he win in that scenario? The Northern lords would have no reason to side with him — his only possible “in” to the North is Sansa, which would be lost if Ramsay kills her, which he will surely try to do, and which Littlefinger has no power to prevent. Indeed, seeing as Littlefinger took Sansa to Winterfell, he would be blamed for it as well.

  38. Sean C.: How exactly does he win in that scenario?The Northern lords would have no reason to side with him — his only possible “in” to the North is Sansa, which would be lost if Ramsay kills her, which he will surely try to do, and which Littlefinger has no power to prevent.Indeed, seeing as Littlefinger took Sansa to Winterfell, he would be blamed for it as well.

    They don’t need to side with him. They can crush the Boltons on their own.

    And then the North will be weaker than ever.

    But i believe Roose knows this and he is not stupid.

  39. mau: He also said that there will be no Battle of Meeren and I believe he is right.

    But where is he now? I’m interested to hear what he has to say about Battle of Winterfell and will we see that battle this season.

    Yes, I miss quite a few people these days. King Tommen for one, but Luka is also hard to find lately. Khal-a-bunga has been MIA for a very long time too.

  40. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
    Darkstar,

    “I was surprised by it because it was new. But it excited me. It’s always nice to enter in a new world and interact with new people and characters you may not have interacted with. Especially if you are a character like Littlefinger who has caused ripples which radiate outwards and affect everybody. It’s always interesting to just show up in their world and play dumb.”

    For me, that points to him knowing more about Ramsay than he’s letting on.

    I’d like to think there is some game of 11th-dimensional chess going on in LFs head right now, but I have strong doubts about this. Starting with chucking his new wife out the Moon Door, his plotting has seemed ill-conceived and totally reliant on the unpredictable behavior of others. His current trip to King’s Landing should be suicidal. Even his jet pack cannot outfly the ravens sent by various lords the day the fugitive Sansa and LF openly showed up in Winterfell, carrying notes offering Cersei Sansa (or her head) in return for hostages the Lannisters hold, land, titles, etc. LF seems to be banking his life on no one making such a play. That’s a horrible assumption to make in Westeros.

  41. Chad Brick,

    You do understand that they needed Sansa to be in WF this season? Not in the Vale, not with Stannis, not with some other lord from the North, but in WF.

    Because she needs somethnig to do. She needs drama in her storyline.

    And they created motivation for all sides in that plot. You think that LF risks too much?

    Maybe. But is that something inconsistent with his charater in the show? He risked too much when he killed Lysa, he risked too much with PW, with Cersei in S2.

    He is a gambler in the show. Much more than he is in the books. And he always was. That is the only thing that matters.

  42. While taking Sansa to Winterfell really makes no good sense for LF, I think it makes sense for the Bolton’s and Sansa, the latter in the sense that she really has no choice to be there. LF’s always been D&D’s random plot device machine — I can overlook it.

    I can overlook it for a couple of reasons:

    1. Sansa back in Winterfell is awesome.
    2. Putting Sansa into Jeyne Pool’s place puts a person we care about into a position of peril.
    3. Theon and Sansa scenes.
    4. Combining Sansa’s, Theon’s and Brienne’s storyline into one allows us to spend more time with all of them by having combined scenes. Time is at a premium.

    It’s plot clumsy, but from a character standpoint, it’s really interesting.

  43. mau:
    Chad Brick,

    You do understand that they needed Sansa to be in WF this season? Not in the Vale, not with Stannis, not with some other lord from the North, but in WF.

    Because she needs somethnig to do. She needs drama in her storyline.

    And they createdmotivation for all sides in that plot. You think that LF risks too much?

    Maybe. But is that something inconsistent with his charater in the show? He risked too much when he killed Lysa, he risked too much with PW, with Cersei in S2.

    He is a gambler in the show. Much more than he is in the books. And he always was. That is the only thing that matters.

    Eh, I don’t mind the changes, but LF has gone from having two heirs in his physcial control to having none — and neither of those heirs really care for him.

    His actions are dumb, but whatever, it’s cool to have Sansa in Winterfell.

  44. mau:
    Chad Brick,

    You do understand that they needed Sansa to be in WF this season? Not in the Vale, not with Stannis, not with some other lord from the North, but in WF.

    Because she needs somethnig to do. She needs drama in her storyline.

    And they createdmotivation for all sides in that plot. You think that LF risks too much?

    Maybe. But is that something inconsistent with his charater in the show? He risked too much when he killed Lysa, he risked too much with PW, with Cersei in S2.

    He is a gambler in the show. Much more than he is in the books. And he always was. That is the only thing that matters.

    Well said

  45. Alan: Eh, I don’t mind the changes, but LF has gone from having two heirs in his physcial control to having none — and neither of those heirs really care for him.

    Robin cares for him. And Sansa has no choice.

    And why is physcial control important?

    His actions are dumb, but whatever, it’s cool to have Sansa in Winterfell.

    His actions are consistent with his characterisation in the show.

  46. Sue the Fury:
    Jason,

    …. people should skip the Previously-Ons before each episode as well if they want to be surprised …..

    Aren’t ‘previously on’ introductions a summary of where things were left? How would they surprise when they cover what’s already been seen? No, I don’t get that at all.
    Don’t you really mean ‘next time on’?
    You’d need to ‘mute’ and cover your eyes at the same time, or switch to stand-by. Both actions still mean some aspect of visual will be seen, even if it’s a second or two.

    Also, you’d have to implement spoilers in your articles rather than a notice announcing them in the following piece. You’d still see something even if you tried to skip past.

    Even with the best of intentions, people are human and will forget or be unsure about how to use spoiler tags. The onus doesn’t fall only on the author. It has to be shared by any reader as well. Use plain old common sense can be the only advice.

  47. Mr Fixit: Yes, I miss quite a few people these days. King Tommen for one, but Luka is also hard to find lately. Khal-a-bunga has been MIA for a very long time too.

    Yes, I miss them, too. I hope they return soon.

  48. mau:
    And Sansa has no choice.

    Er, yes she does, in the show. That was the whole point of 408 (which subsequent episodes didn’t follow through with at all, making that seem very strange).

  49. House Farwynd,

    Of course Alfie knows it wasn’t him. Theon was knocked out by Dagmer after all before he had the chance to do anything. I guess he was speaking figuratively–Theon was responsible for the fall of Winterfell after all.

  50. Turncloak,

    And just because a conjecture id correct does not mean that it is logical! There were, after all, numerous explanations for the “proofs.” There were many claims of “it is the only thing it can mean!”: and those statements still are false, as they were consistent with many other scenarios. (Indeed, at least a couple of turned out to be unrelated, if I recall.)

    (Conversely, logical statements can be incorrect, too: if I tell you that all elephants are purple, then it logically follows that the big greyish-brown thing with a trunk and big ears cannot be an elephant; the truth of the basic premise is a second issue separate from deductive logic.)

    Or, put another way: some people guessed correctly: but in the end, it was just that: a lucky guess!

  51. Wimsey,

    I think King Tommen gave ample reason as to why Sansa marrying Ramsay was logical for the show to do. At that time you and many others were convinced that Sansa would stay in the Vale during the whole season. I made the bold claim that I would eat my hat if we spent more than 1 episode in the Vale in season 5. Sansa and Littlefinger ended up leaving the Vale in the very first episode :-]. It would just not make sense to have a separate Vale plot with the limited amount of time the show has and the limited cast spots they have

  52. Turncloak,

    If I remember correctly, I was willing to believe Sansa would go to Winterfell, but not willing to believe she’d be going as Ramsay’s intended. I thought she’d be there to either take Ramsay his bride, or attend the wedding of Ramsay and someone else (like “Winterfell Worker”).

  53. Even though I was against sending Sansa to Winterfell at first, I think I’m coming around to it. It was either get her to Winterfell, or cut her storyline entirely (and come back to her in Season 6/7 – if she stays in the Vale). I do think they could have given Sansa more motivation to go to WF though. The revenge explanation is good, but if they also had LF emotionally blackmail Sansa (i.e. by saying that it’s her duty as the last Stark to go to Winterfell and make sure it’s managed, and there should always be a Stark at Winterfell, etc.) that would have made it stronger.

    I do think there’s a certain cleverness in putting Sansa in a precarious position, since we’ll actually care about what’s going to happen to her. If she was just in the Vale, she would just be moping around and not accomplishing anything, so putting her in danger keeps us on our toes a little bit.

  54. In the first couple seasons, I thought Alfie did a fine job as Theon. But the last couple of season… Damn! I don’t understand why he does not get an Emmy nod. His facial expressions alone, can rip your heart out!

  55. Wimsey:

    Or, put another way: some people guessed correctly: but in the end, it was just that: a lucky guess!

    I say kudos to all those who “guessed” correctly. Why the need to make the distinction between a guess, conjecture, etc? Is it so difficult to give credit to another commenter?

  56. Queenofthrones,

    How do you even skip the “last time on” since it airs right as the show is starting? Just curious. Do you just turn on the show after 9 and hope that you’ve missed the recap but havent turned it on too late and missed part of the opening scene?

  57. I’m here, trying to play nicely, but virtually everything I post gets ignored.

    The cliquishness must be terribly off-putting to those less confident than myself.

    Mr Fixit: Yes, I miss quite a few people these days. King Tommen for one, but Luka is also hard to find lately. Khal-a-bunga has been MIA for a very long time too.

  58. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    I believe I was with you in the middle-of-the-road camp back then, agreeing that it looked like Sansa was going to Winterfell, but hoping that they would retain the fArya plot. I must admit that I am enjoying the Sansa line this season, but perhaps just because I cannot predict as much in that line as I can in the more faithful lines.

    I’m afraid I have to agree with those who are saying

    that Sansa is going to suffer at Ramsey’s orders. Will it be the exact same scenario as the books? Probably not, but I think that there needs to be that moment of shared horror–that, “How the hell did we end up here?” moment–between Reek and Sansa that gives them both the impetus to break free of Ramsey. And I have to believe that D&D would not cheapen the original story by having Reek turn back into Theon, ala Clark Kent and Superman, just in time to swoop in and save the damsel from utter humiliation–or worse.

    I fear that it’s going to be disturbing to watch, but if anyone can turn it into an acting triumph, it is Alfie. He rules this character!

  59. Chad Brick,

    Good post,

    Baelish seems to be covertly backing Stannis as well at this point. Or, at least planning for his victory as we have seen with Sansa. In the books, this has not been revealed to be Baelish’s endgame.

  60. JTargs:
    Queenofthrones,

    How do you even skip the “last time on” since it airs right as the show is starting? Just curious. Do you just turn on the show after 9 and hope that you’ve missed the recap but havent turned it on too late and missed part of the opening scene?

    It’s not that hard, dude. Just leave it playing and go elsewhere for a snack or a quick visit to the bathroom.

  61. Wimsey,

    I love ya, Wimsey, but you can’t just sweep those arguments aside as “a lucky guess.” Guessing this dramatic a change from the books? There’s not enough luck in the world for that!

    Just admit it, some were very perceptive about the difficulty of writing Sansa’s S5 arc, and recognized a way to combine storylines. Then evidence trickled in supporting their claims (I believe you were still in denial after we saw Sansa in the crypts of Winterfell). Let’s give credit where credit is due

  62. Morgoth,

    lol
    To me it does seem unfathomable.
    So many of us come here, whether during the off-season or during it, we can’t help but pick up on future events for the season, whether speculated or confirmed.
    I’m often in a quandry as to when I should use spoiler tags that usually, I just don’t post.
    In my opinion, this site should just be a “open, free for all who want to discuss everything about the show and where it may go” (Obviously in a respectful manner. I saw a poster just recently who said to another “You don’t come here during the “off-season” so stop trying to be one of us” and found that disheartening)

    I do find it hard to believe that there are people who come here who try never to watch a trailer or previously-on build-up.

    This site Surely is for the show fans who want to know???
    Otherwise why do So many of you know or endeavour to find out sprinklings of information or speculation of what is or could be happening in future episodes.

    And Why the rest of us (myself included) Marvel at how you gleamed these gems 🙂

    Next year might see the a significant decline in spoiler tags… we ‘could’ ALL be in the Dark! 😀

  63. I was initially off put by the seeming illogic of Littlefinger sending Sansa to Winterfell, but as I think of it more, I think some of his game can be unearthed.

    Firstly, it looks like Olyvar is going to be a key witness for the Faith to the indiscretions of Loras (and if he makes things up Margaery). However, recall that Olyvar is in the employ of Littlefinger, and was previously directed by Littlefinger to seduce and spy on Loras, at which he seems to be succeeding admirably.

    Next, Cersei received a viper with a necklace in the season premiere. She claims that there are only two such necklaces in the world, but she might be unaware that Tyrion gave just such a necklace to Ros—another one of Littlefinger’s agents. Littlefinger is also necessarily aware of Myrcella’s presence in Dorne and fear for her. Meanwhile Ellaria and the Snakes (good band name) seem surprised and annoyed that Jaime and Bronn are in Dorne, rather than satisfied their plan worked. Littlefinger sent the viper box to separate Jaime and Cersei and further her descent into madness.

    Add to this Littlefinger’s connections with the Queen of Thorns and their shared engineering of the Purple Wedding, as well as the imminent return of both to King’s Landing and it becomes quite clear that Littlefinger has control of the situation in the capital, and can pull his strings to bring about Cersei’s downfall. Indeed, he almost seems to expect her summons.

    So why send Sansa to Winterfell?

    Because whatever happens to her, he wins. He firstly succeeds at removing her from Lannister clutches, while at the same time manages to destabilize bothe the Lannister–Bolton and the Lannister–Frey alliances. Furthermore, having Sansa, having a Stark in Winterfell, manages to destabilize the current Northern dynamic. Most Northern lords will remain loyal to a Stark, whether she is married to a Bolton, or independent, or wardeness under Stannis. For the few lords not loyal to her or the Boltons, the ravens sent to King’s Landing will continue to hurt Cersei and her regime, while having little tangible impact in the North.

    If Stannis wins, Sansa rules the North under him and Littlefinger continues his ascent.

    If she enchants Ramsey, she can gain power that way.

    And if it all fails and Ramsey harms her in his Ramsey way, Littlefinger can spread that news and Sansa’s maltreatment can serve as the catalyst for a Northern rebellion, especially because Winter is Coming, and the Starks have long guided the North through the winter.

    Regardless of what happens, Littlefinger can continue to organize chaos in the capital and in the North, and with the Tyrells forced to back Tommen against Dorne, and with Cersei’s paranoia leading to that war the situation destabilizes further and he continues to destroy the Great Houses that spurned him.

    His endgame is chaos, because chaos is a ladder, and the climb is all there is.

  64. fly on the Wall,

    Agree with many of you points …Except… Littlefinger wasn’t so clever to announce to Cersei “Information is Power” and his ‘Sansa as Wardeness of the North’ plot really only makes sense to me if he truly is in the dark about Ramsay. And when I thought about it… he must be. One thing putting Sansa in the clutches of a Dangerous man (Roose), quite another for him to marry Sansa to a Sadist (Ramsay)
    He thinks he is moving pieces, but he has just put his queen into a square where the player could just wack it off the board without playing by the rules of the game! LOL
    Ramsay’s only good at Removing pieces… not playing them 😛

    I think that is going to backfire on him and Sansa will Destroy him for it!

  65. Man, and to think that I’m just mildly pleased when I correctly spell the character’s names, then continue living my life….

  66. Pigeon,

    LOL … Touche 🙂

    But I don’t have a life and when I’m not dribbling over Game of Thrones and go design my own Lego Modulars… and I’m pass 40!!!

    I think my dog still loves me but most friends & family have given up.

  67. KG,

    Awww… Feel I’m in the same boat KG, but, at the Very least … a modulator has to read my post.

    If “I” see you from now on, I will endeavour to reply so long as you’re not a Troll 🙂

  68. Here Be Dragons,

    Haha! No, I didn’t mean it as a dig so much as a comment on my lack of real insight….I mainly trundle along just assuming that everything I want to happen will not, and vice versa. And spouting random trivia about which actors were in Tomb Raider or Rome or Attila the Hun, to hapless friends who don’t give a flarp. 😉

    And also contemplate how completely different Iain Glen looks from what Jorah ‘should’.

    You are never too old for Lego. Ever.

  69. Felt Pelt,

    I’d watch your podcasts… Technically I thought it was fine… I can hear you clearly and the lighting is good (Linda & Elio used to have terrible lighting)

    My comment is, try and find a couple of people who really are unsullied and passionate about the show. (say 2 of each on the panel)
    Dump the guy on the far right… looks like he really doesn’t want to be there … it’s always fun hearing Unsullied viewpoints.

    Look at “Whattheflicks” podcasts… they’re got the right mix, but I’d love to see them bring in someone who’s not entirely sold (or at least characters motivations) on the series but is still watching it regardless.

    Unfortunately they seem to have lost Ana recently and it’s good to have a womans viewpoint. They need to get her back or bring in another.

  70. mariamb,

    Indeed, KT called it quickly, but also wasn’t fazed when ridiculed. He believed what he believed and judged the possibility at face value. Very shrewd, as you say.

  71. Pigeon,

    Alright Pigeon…

    You are the new Nina Gold!
    You have just been given the (surprising) task of casting the role for Euron (Crow’s Eye) Greyjoy.
    You’re again going to people you’ve had dealings with.
    Who are you going to cast…?

    …and lets throw a female in there and you also have to cast a Lady Dustin 😉

  72. JTargs:
    How do you even skip the “last time on” since it airs right as the show is starting?

    Well, if you live in my house, then you look away from the screen and screamsing “LA LA LA! LA LA! LA! LA!” at the top of your lungs until your non-spoiler-averse housemate tells you it’s safe to watch again. For this show, I am that housemate, because this is one show that I’m okay with being spoiled for. For everything else I watch, I’m one of the look-away-and-sing folks.

    I prefer not to be told precisely what’s going to happen in an episode right before I watch it (“Dude, I’m watching it now, okay? You don’t have to sell it to me anymore! I’m already sold!”), and for anyone with experience constructing narrative, it’s far too easy to predict exactly what scenes you’re about to be shown from those “previouslies.”

    (Very much in the same way that Sansa in Winterfell seemed a perfectly logical prediction to anyone who gave more than a minute’s thought to how *they* might adapt her material to the screen, if it were their job to do so.)

  73. afartherroom,

    Well the only other show I’m passionate about is ‘Hannibal’ but it is easy to avoid spoilers because I don’t go to any place that might contain them.

    HBO buggared it up this time by

    showing Barrister laying on a Funeral Slab

    …but it’s hard to believe anyone coming into this particular post AND reading the comments, has Not heard about it, regardless of spoiler tags !!! ?

  74. Here Be Dragons,

    It is hard to imagine someone managing to remain unspoiled while frequenting a site like this one, I agree. In a perfect world, though, I’d think people should be able to follow things like interviews with cast members without getting spoiled. We don’t live in a perfect world, of course, but I’m all for trying to inch closer to that goal whenever possible, and using the spoiler tags really isn’t that much effort for something that might mean a great deal to someone else.

    That said, I do enjoy the freedom of the Sullied Recaps, where spoiler tagging isn’t necessary.

  75. Here Be Dragons:
    Pigeon,

    Alright Pigeon…

    You are the new Nina Gold!
    You have just been given the (surprising) task of casting the role for Euron (Crow’s Eye) Greyjoy.
    You’re again going to people you’ve had dealings with.
    Who are you going to cast…?

    …and lets throw a female in there and you also have to cast a Lady Dustin

    Oh dear….that’s a loaded assignment! Wow….ok, well I don’t expect anyone to agree, and I am basing it on looks more than acting, but….

    Lady Barbrey Dustin: Famke Janssen

    Euron Greyjoy: James D’arcy (although he’s too young) Or completely out of randomville (and also too young) – Wes Bentley.

  76. Man, I can’t wait for episode 5, especially if it means seeing more of Theon and the Boltons. I had the incredible finish to episode 4 spoiled for me – in a sense, twice. Once because I looked at Youtube comments before it aired; that’s really my fault overall (you know, as well as the dick who leaked the episodes).

    But, infuriatingly, even if I’d had the willpower and foresight not to do that, it still would have been spoiled for me. During the week of the episode’s airing, whilst I was at a networking festival, I simply switched my iPad on so I could show some work to someone, and the damned Facebook notification banner came down from the top, with the same bloody spoiler in a PM.

    Going to have to tweak my iPad so it doesn’t do that, but my god, the efforts you have to go to in this hyper-connected world, just to avoid spoilers for a week…

  77. afartherroom,

    Could you clarify something for me? Here in UK, we don’t get a ‘previously on’ when GOT begins. Is that not the case in other regions?

  78. ZappaCreed,

    We keep them in here in NZ and then the intro begins and then we get glimpses of next weeks trailer playing alongside the credits.

  79. Pigeon,

    I like Famke for your Barbrey (Well done) Very ‘northern’ face and something ‘steely’ about it too. Put her in northern dress and bitterness bites and we would have had a fine character in Winterfell.
    Makes me sad that we haven’t got her and Manderley to represent opposing sides of Northern feeling towards the Boltons.

    What a pity Wes is too young… He really does have a striking face and the gravitas to embody a character like Euron.

  80. Yung Wolf:
    Here Be Dragons,

    Don’t you dare say that! Listen to me, you are flawless. You are flawless and we love you.

    The truth is, we are all perfect just as we are. God only loves that which is perfect, and he loves you, he loves you because you are perfect. You are perfect, just as you are.

    Multiple hugs&cookies to anyone who knows where this is from.

  81. Eurio,

    He said that he is dissapointed in the whole season based on what scene,and even if it was just the episode it’s only 3-4 min of a 50 min episode,my point is you are either retarded or can’t read .

  82. wizardeyes,

    I agree.

    Potential spoilers!

    He wasn’t spotted in the filming of the Pit scene, which would be odd if he wasn’t dead. It’s also much more effective to go for a double murder IMO, and having Gray Worm crippled throughout the season doesn’t really add anything. This would also help develop Missandei.
  83. fly on the Wall:
    I was initially off put by the seeming illogic of Littlefinger sending Sansa to Winterfell, but as I think of it more, I think some of his game can be unearthed.

    Firstly, it looks like Olyvar is going to be a key witness for the Faith to the indiscretions of Loras (and if he makes things up Margaery). However, recall that Olyvar is in the employ of Littlefinger, and was previously directed by Littlefinger to seduce and spy on Loras, at which he seems to be succeeding admirably.

    Next, Cersei received a viper with a necklace in the season premiere. She claims that there are only two such necklaces in the world, but she might be unaware that Tyrion gave just such a necklace to Ros—another one of Littlefinger’s agents. Littlefinger is also necessarily aware of Myrcella’s presence in Dorne and fear for her. Meanwhile Ellaria and the Snakes (good band name) seem surprised and annoyed that Jaime and Bronn are in Dorne, rather than satisfied their plan worked. Littlefinger sent the viper box to separate Jaime and Cersei and further her descent into madness.

    Add to this Littlefinger’s connections with the Queen of Thorns and their shared engineering of the Purple Wedding, as well as the imminent return of both to King’s Landing and it becomes quite clear that Littlefinger has control of the situation in the capital, and can pull his strings to bring about Cersei’s downfall. Indeed, he almost seems to expect her summons.

    So why send Sansa to Winterfell?

    Because whatever happens to her, he wins. He firstly succeeds at removing her from Lannister clutches, while at the same time manages to destabilize bothe the Lannister–Bolton and the Lannister–Frey alliances. Furthermore, having Sansa, having a Stark in Winterfell, manages to destabilize the current Northern dynamic. Most Northern lords will remain loyal to a Stark, whether she is married to a Bolton, or independent, or wardeness under Stannis. For the few lords not loyal to her or the Boltons, the ravens sent to King’s Landing will continue to hurt Cersei and her regime, while having little tangible impact in the North.

    If Stannis wins, Sansa rules the North under him and Littlefinger continues his ascent.

    If she enchants Ramsey, she can gain power that way.

    And if it all fails and Ramsey harms her in his Ramsey way, Littlefinger can spread that news and Sansa’s maltreatment can serve as the catalyst for a Northern rebellion, especially because Winter is Coming, and the Starks have long guided the North through the winter.

    Regardless of what happens, Littlefinger can continue to organize chaos in the capital and in the North, and with the Tyrells forced to back Tommen against Dorne, and with Cersei’s paranoia leading to that war the situation destabilizes further and he continues to destroy the Great Houses that spurned him.

    His endgame is chaos, because chaos is a ladder, and the climb is all there is.

    Fantastic!

  84. jentario,

    I would love more Missandei development. Natalie Emmanuel’s Missandei doesn’t have many lines, but I always feel like there is a bigger story there thats yet to be explored
  85. Here Be Dragons,

    Thank you for the feedback. What the Flick is supreme. The return of Ana would be good.

    If you watch to the end, a drunk unsullied woman comes on and has some strong opinions.

    We don’t know if we will make another one, I hope to. I have a surfeit of people unsullied and sullied who want to do it.

  86. It seems to me that people tend to overthink things about the show. If you do that you are going to have a bad time. The show runners have to make short cuts that make for the best possible story they can make with their limited budget, actors, and time. Instead of thinking, “why is LF putting Sansa at risk!”, it is better to think “Sansa in Winterfell has me much more onthe edge than Jeyne Pool at Winterfell!”. With only 10 hours of story time, these types of shortcuts need to be made for the show to survive.

  87. James:
    Man, I can’t wait for episode 5

    Only 0 days, 9 hours, 17 minutes, and 10 seconds to go! Don’t ask me how I know that.

  88. Turncloak:
    It seems to me that people tend to overthink things about the show. If you do that you are going to have a bad time. The show runners have to make short cuts that make for the best possible story they can make with their limited budget, actors, and time. Instead of thinking, “why is LF putting Sansa at risk!”, it is better to think “Sansa in Winterfell has me much more onthe edge than Jeyne Pool at Winterfell!”. With only 10 hours of story time, these types of shortcuts need to be made for the show to survive.

    exactly

  89. Turncloak:
    It seems to me that people tend to overthink things about the show. If you do that you are going to have a bad time. The show runners have to make short cuts that make for the best possible story they can make with their limited budget, actors, and time. Instead of thinking, “why is LF putting Sansa at risk!”, it is better to think “Sansa in Winterfell has me much more onthe edge than Jeyne Pool at Winterfell!”. With only 10 hours of story time, these types of shortcuts need to be made for the show to survive.

    I don’t consider criticizing what I believe to be illogical plotting and character motivations to be “overthinking”. If the show requires me to turn my brain off, it’s not good writing.

  90. Interesting that some networks show “previously on…” and “Next week on…!” as we don’t get those with Sky Atlantic in the UK – which is one small positive for their broadcast.

    I’m prepared to wait for the whole season to end before passing judgement, I always feel GoT is a 10 act series where everything tends to be put in place for the next one usually on episode 9. Same goes for AFFC and ADWD really, it’s hard to judge them until we know where they are leading to…

  91. fly on the Wall: I was initially off put by the seeming illogic of Littlefinger sending Sansa to Winterfell, but as I think of it more, I think some of his game can be unearthed.

    This is interesting conjecture, and certainly consistent with other conjecture about Littlefinger. After all, the “Why” of Littlefinger remains one of the biggest unknowns in the story. GRRM and B&W put this gun on the Wall right away in Season 1 and it’s come up repeatedly. Indeed, B&W added some exposition by Littlefinger that might elucidate his motives: but, then, given Littlefinger we should assume that these explanations are ironic at best!

    The “Agent Provocateur” model almost seems to be the best one. But, if so, then for whom? Various ideas over the years have included: 1) the Others (White Walkers); 2) Rhaegar’s son Aegon (on the assumption that he was still alive); 3) some mystery party that GRRM would introduce in future books. Of course, 2 future books have come and gone in that time: and we’ve never seen this mystery party. That makes Model 3 both unlikely and improbable at this point. Those two books have provided no indications that the White Walkers use human agents, which renders that model much less likely. And those two books have provided other reasons to think that Model 2 is inappropriate.

    So, maybe Varys’ model (of which you suggest a variant), i.e., the “King of the Ashes” model, is the correct one. And given that, you do a good job of showing that what B&W (who presumably know Baelish’s motives) have LF doing is consistent with that model.

    So, this model is the best of what is available by a long shot. Still, we have to remember that there might be other models that might work, too.

  92. Arya havin’ a larf?: which is one small positive for their broadcast.

    I would say quite the opposite. They should know that most of their viewers have better things to do with their memories than waste neural connections on TV shows!

  93. Sean C.: I don’t consider criticizing what I believe to be illogical plotting and character motivations to be “overthinking”.If the show requires me to turn my brain off, it’s not good writing.

    Your thoughts are muddled by the books which is why you think character motivations don’t make sense. Show Littlefinger is far from Book Littlefinger. Show Littlefinger is 10 times the risk taker. Show LF explains his motivations to whores. Show LF almost got killed by Cersei in season 2. Show LF almost got killed by the Lords of the Vale in season 4 until Sansa bailed him out. The show gives logical reasons for character motivations. People refuse to accept them based on their distorted views of what the character “should be”.

  94. Sean C.: I don’t consider criticizing what I believe to be illogical plotting and character motivations to be “overthinking”.

    But it is not illogical. The Bolton’s have taken Winterfell and the Wardenship of the North. As a female Stark, one way that Sansa can get those things back into the Stark bloodline is to marry into their family. The alternative ways are not feasible: she has no means to raise an army, for example. Thus, the only feasible way for Sansa to get herself at least adjacent to the power of Winterfell is the marry Roose or Ramsay at this point. (Roose is off the table now, too.)

    So, if Sansa marries Ramsay and given that marriage to the heir of the Ward put a woman adjacent to power, then Sansa gets herself adjacent to power in Winterfell by marrying Ramsay. That’s logic 101 right there.

    Of course, “adjacent to power” is not the end goal. But strategy is a syllogism of tactics. So, what did Sansa learn from Cersei at King’s Landing? Once you get yourself adjacent to power, well, then sometimes accidents can happen that put you into power. Moreover, Sansa should have learned this much from Cersei: if the accidents don’t happen on their own, then sometimes you can make sure that they do happen.

    Now, like all tactics, there is an element of probability here. The only necessary outcome of marrying Ramsay is putting herself into a position where she might be able to accomplish these things. But, then, that is the goal: and therefore this tactic is quite logical; the goal necessarily follows from the action.

  95. Turncloak: Your thoughts are muddled by the books which is why you think character motivations don’t make sense. Show Littlefinger is far from Book Littlefinger. Show Littlefinger is 10 times the risk taker. Show LF explains his motivations to whores. Show LF almost got killed by Cersei in season 2. Show LF almost got killed by the Lords of the Vale in season 4 until Sansa bailed him out. The show gives logical reasons for character motivations. People refuse to accept them based on their distorted views of what the character “should be”.

    That’s actually a contrary problem: the show treats Littlefinger as every bit the mastermind he is in the books, while writing him as much, much dumber.

  96. Sean C.: I don’t consider criticizing what I believe to be illogical plotting and character motivations to be “overthinking”.If the show requires me to turn my brain off, it’s not good writing.

    It is overthinking, because you expected LF to explain every possibility and every detail in 2 minutes. He explained what was needed at that moment

    Even in books where GRRM has a lot more time, he does not do that.

  97. Sean C.: the show treats Littlefinger as every bit the mastermind he is in the books, while writing him as much, much dumber.

    That is not remotely close to being true. If anything, then he’s more clever on TV than he is in the books. (Of course, that might be an illusion created by the additional scenes he gets in the show due to expanded PoV and adaptive alterations.)

    Incidentally, this is an example of illogical. If the show portrays someone as being a mastermind, then they (by definition) are portraying that someone as being quite smart. It’s one or the other: it cannot be both.

  98. mau: Even in books where GRRM has a lot more time, he does not do that.

    Well, Baelish is for GRRM what Snape was for JK Rowling. In the end, there might turn out to be an explanation that simply accounts for all of the apparent contradictions in LF: but we do not know what that is yet!

    (Of course, B&W, just like Steve Kloves, probably knows what that answer is.)

  99. Wimsey,

    Show!Littlefinger talking openly to Sansa in full view of Shae, Ros, and half the damn docks of King’s Landing is but one example of the show attempting to portray Littlefinger as a masterful schemer, but doing so in ways that are book!dumb.

    Book!Littlefinger would never be that on-the-nose in his plot machinations.

  100. Sean C.: That’s actually a contrary problem:the show treats Littlefinger as every bit the mastermind he is in the books, while writing him as much, much dumber.

    You can like or dislike the way they treat LF, but you can not deny that his characterisation is consistent from S1.

    He is a gambler and a very lucky man.

    Many characters are more complex in the books. Every plan is more complicated in the books.

    That is the nature of medium. It is normal.

  101. Matty C,

    So? Littlefinger having a conversation with Sansa on the docks is hardly strange. She wasn’t locked away in a dungeon somewhere. A whole bunch of people were in a position to talk to her throughout Seasons 1-3.

  102. Sean C.: That’s actually a contrary problem:the show treats Littlefinger as every bit the mastermind he is in the books, while writing him as much, much dumber.

    So far I have not seen dumb from LF. Damn, There must be two shows.

  103. Matty C: doing so in ways that are book!dumb.

    Those are hardly “book dumb.” One key to court intrigue throughout history is to set up pretext for interacting: after all (and as the show made clear), why wouldn’t LF take interest in the granddaughter of the man who had fostered him and the daughter of the woman he had once loved? (Remember, it is no secret about how LF felt about Catelyn: and LF is not dumb enough to pretend that it is.)

    Moreover, lots of people talk to Sansa: she is, after all, a figure of much interest. It would be odd if LF didn’t show some interest: everyone knows that he takes interest in everything. Is it a smokescreen for something more? Possibly, and even probably: but, then, everyone at KL knows that everyone’s interactions with Sansa probably are a smokescreen for something more. That leaves them none the wiser, and perhaps even baffled by the smoke.

  104. Matty C:
    Wimsey,

    Show!Littlefinger talking openly to Sansa in full view of Shae, Ros, and half the damn docks of King’s Landing is but one example of the show attempting to portray Littlefinger as a masterful schemer, but doing so in ways that are book!dumb.

    Book!Littlefingerwould never be that on-the-nose in his plot machinations.

    Because that is the nature of this medium. They needed Sansa’s and LF’s scenes, because LF is more important character than Dontos.

    They want to show us relations between charaters. That’s why we had Olenna and Varys, LF and Varys, Margaery and Sansa,…

  105. mau: They needed Sansa’s and LF’s scenes, because LF is more important character than Dontos.

    That is another key. The book was trying to make it a mystery as to who was pulling Sansa’s strings there. I don’t recall that it worked: I think that everyone inferred that it was LF, as Dontos clearly was not up for that sort of thing. (However, that was nearly 20 years ago!)

    That written, the show did not make it obvious who was the one directing Sansa’s escape, either. Sure, the Baelish gun had been put on the wall, but so had the Tyrell and Stark guns.

  106. Wimsey: That is another key.The book was trying to make it a mystery as to who was pulling Sansa’s strings there.I don’t recall that it worked: I think that everyone inferred that it was LF, as Dontos clearly was not up for that sort of thing.(However, that was nearly 20 years ago!)

    It was just like in Harry Potter. In the movie Harry wasn’t under the invisible cloak when Dumbledore was killed, because that wouldn’t work on screen.

  107. Arya havin’ a larf?:
    Interesting that some networks show “previously on…” and “Next week on…!” as we don’t get those with Sky Atlantic in the UK – which is one small positive for their broadcast.

    I assume you watch Thronecast? (if not give it a try) but for the benefit of people who don’t get Sky Atlantic, we get the trailer for the following episode as part of a separate ‘companion’ programme which covers the preceding episode in more depth. It’s always at the end and they warn you it’s coming so you have vital seconds to take evasive action if required.

    Also, very low on computer battery power so gonna ask a question and come back later to see if anyone knows the answer: SPOILER WARNING FOR BROTHER/SISTERHOOD WITHOUT LEAKAGE I am about to discuss the trailer for episode 5:

    In episode 1 Stannis says he doesn’t have enough men to attack Winterfell, which is why he wants the wildings. Presumably he’s talking about lots of extra men rather than just 10 or so. He seems to be setting off for WF in the trailer so, unless I missed something, or it’s explained in ep 5 (such as a recruitment campaign en route), presumably he’s still lacking the numbers he thinks he needs?
  108. Just saying thank you to Wimsey for being a voice of reason. I may not always agree with you, but your reasoning for your positions is solid.

  109. mau: Robin cares for him. And Sansa has no choice.

    And why is physcial control important?

    His actions are consistent with his characterisation in the show.

    Robin doesn’t care for him — and definitely won’t after a year or so with the Royces. Physical control is very important, especially of a ward. How does LF exert power now? He had power over Robin because he could intimidate him and act like his father … that’s not true now.

    Roose and Royce own his wards for now. And there’s no good way for LF to get them back.

    It’s stupid by LF. It doesn’t ruin the show or anything but it’s highly unbelieveable. But it’s not the first time.

  110. Alan: Robin doesn’t care for him — and definitely won’t after a year or so with the Royces.

    D&D said Robin cares for him.

  111. Turncloak: Your thoughts are muddled by the books which is why you think character motivations don’t make sense. Show Littlefinger is far from Book Littlefinger. Show Littlefinger is 10 times the risk taker. Show LF explains his motivations to whores. Show LF almost got killed by Cersei in season 2. Show LF almost got killed by the Lords of the Vale in season 4 until Sansa bailed him out. The show gives logical reasons for character motivations. People refuse to accept them based on their distorted views of what the character “should be”.

    Show LF isn’t just a risk-taker, his risks don’t make sense. The idea that Sansa’s backup plan should be to charm Ramsay is just silly, for example, amongst a number of things.

    It doesn’t really matter; a lot of things in movies and shows don’t make a lot of sense if you really spend time.

    I love the show, but it doesn’t take someone who can’t tell the difference between show and book to think some of the things LF is doing runs from risky to dumb. The fact that the showrunners spent a ton of time trying to explain it — even having Roose say “Man, you’re dumb” — is circumstantial evidence that even the showrunners know it.

    I’ll admit, they’ve learned from the political scene of Qarth (what the hell just happened?) but it still is pretty forced.

  112. Lulu’s Mum: I assume you watch Thronecast? (if not give it a try) but for the benefit of people who don’t get Sky Atlantic, we get the trailer for the following episode as part of a separate ‘companion’ programme which covers the preceding episode in more depth. It’s always at the end and they warn you it’s coming so you have vital seconds to take evasive action if required.

    Also, very low on computer battery power so gonna ask a question and come back later to see if anyone knows the answer: SPOILER WARNING FOR BROTHER/SISTERHOOD WITHOUT LEAKAGE I am about to discuss the trailer for episode 5:

    I can get Thronecast but don’t usually bother to watch it – did once in S4 and the presenters annoyed me!

  113. Mine is the hairy,

    The scene in the trailer is of Messendei kissing a laying down Greyworm, and many had already speculated that she could be kissing his dead body. Also, he is nowhere to be seen in any of the fighting pit scenes from the trailer. My money is on him dying, though he could survive a bit longer.
  114. Alan: The fact that the showrunners spent a ton of time trying to explain it — even having Roose say “Man, you’re dumb” — is circumstantial evidence that even the showrunners know it

    It would be, if the show had spent any time doing that. As it has not, it is not! Roose never says anything like that, and it never comes up in any other way. Now, there have been two occasions where people didn’t act as Littlefinger anticipated: Sansa coming clean to the Vale Lords and Cersei deciding to summon him back to Kings Landing. The former could not be anticipated: Sansa never before had shown any sign of active behavior, only passive behavior. The latter could not be anticipated: the circumstances leading to this are (in large part) things that were not yet happening when he left KL.

    However, that only means that Baelish is not omniscient. Big deal: nobody is. Baelish is, however, much better informed than most people and much more clever about what he does with that information than most people. The show has shown that very well.

  115. Here Be Dragons: “You don’t come here during the “off-season” so stop trying to be one of us” and found that disheartening

    Pfft…pay no mind to comments like that. Anyway, what is “one of us” supposed to even mean (I know you didn’t say it, I’m just sayin’…)? Does posting in the off-season mean we’re part of some special club and get a super-secret decoder ring? If so, I’m pissed, ’cause I was here in the off-season, and I never got mine!

  116. Sean C.,

    You obviously don’t read history. History is full of illogical thinking and full of extra intelligent people who proved to be dumb. But here we don’t have something extravaggantly illogical on the part of LF. What we have here is an obsession with one’s own interpretation of logic.

  117. King Stannis: So far I have not seen dumb from LF. Damn, There must be two shows.

    His Sansa in Winterfell play destroys his relationship with both the Lannisters and the Vale lords and would be perceived as negative by the Tyrells. Anti-Bolton northern lords will also hate him for it, as will Stannis. Even if Sansa does survive this and come out of it with some level of power, she would no longer have need of LF and probably be spitfire mad at him for tricking her into marrying a psychopath. But hey, this plan endears him to the Boltons and Freys, who are military doomed and murdered the love his life.

    If that is not idiotic, setting off to Kings Landing, where in any logical world Cersei would already know what he did, most certainly is. In fact it should be suicidal. Even in TV Westeros, Ravens are faster than jet packs.

  118. Chad Brick,

    You are so blind by your own convictions. LF’s plan is very well thought. He has Harenhal and the Eyrie. He sends Sansa to WF where she can play with Boltons. The Boltons cannot harm her at least not right away and in that case Sansa will respond. In the show we know that Reek is unpredictable but we know also that Brienne is around. So With Eyrie and WF Cersei has no choice but to negotiate with him. That gives him time which he can use for his purposes. We suspect that the necklace might be his idea. We know that Dorne is against Cersei even though Doran hasn’t revealed his thoughts yet it is logical to think that Dorne will not support Cersei. Tyrells are against Cersei and don’t care about the North. Stannis is against Cersei. So Cersei is not an immediate danger. She can bite but LF has the means to effectively counterattack her. The FM situation is to his advantage because he can easily use them against Cersei. I mean incest at the core of the Iron Throne is far worse a sin than a brothel. At the same time his brothel is not of so big importance right now. He can survive without it. He already has in his hands two regions and he counts that WF will be an ally if Sansa prevails. Ramsay is a problem which he might not have an idea but even if he had he could easily have risked it as he knows that Sansa has both the will to take revenge and the experience to deal with psychopaths. Stannis is hugely indebted to the IBank and he has first to reach KL. It’s not easy. If he win the WF battle he won’t have an objection to have Sansa as wardess of the North. He has no time and money to loose burning Sansa (and what for?) creating further problems in the North. He will march to KL and on his way many things could happen of which LF is very well aware. Now the Northern Lords will have no objection to Sansa. The fact that LF is not there at the moment will diminish the effect of his actual involvement. It will not be difficult for Sansa to manipulate the Northern lords. Sofar and under the fluid circumstances in the whole Westeros LF’s scheming seems to be the most obvious and logical one to help him go ahead with his plans.

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