Game of Thrones is shooting in Campillo de Dueñas, Guadalajara, Spain this week, at the impressive Castillo de Zafra. La Tribuna de Albacete notes the secrecy of the shoot, with the security guards patrolling a four-kilometer perimeter. But onlookers have still come, evidenced by the leaked photos and videos. Apparently this weekend, a man even broke his leg on nearby rocks trying to reach the castle.
The webite also reports that the Three-Eyed Raven- Max von Sydow– is in Guadalajara, along with Isaac Hempstead Wright, confirms that the film crew arrived last Friday at Castillo de Zafra to prepare for the shoot and that the people involved in the Game of Thrones shooting have been staying in Teruel.
Speaking of videos, here is the newest video of the Tower of Joy filming! We saw one yesterday courtesy of Los Siete Reinos, and today a new one was posted on Facebook.
This video is chock full of spoilers.
The footage shows rehearsal or filming at the Castillo de Zafra, with actors/stuntmen performing a fight. I’d guess based on the actions we’re seeing in the video that these three are meant to be young Ned Stark, Howland Reed, and Ser Arthur Dayne.
The rotated, fight portion of the video-
(This video has been taken down or made private)
The longer form of the video, which is sideways, and not probably labeled correctly- at 7:50 where it says “Aemon Targaryan,” he may have actually spotted and heard Max von Sydow.
The man who took the video seems to be assuming it’s Sean Bean but I don’t think you can actually tell from that distance. The man in the scene is dressed in typical Ned clothing but may be a younger actor who just resembles him. Bean also recently denied taking any part in season 6-though we can’t always believe cast members when they claim this. (Looking at you, Harington.)
Thanks to WotW readers Bran is Bae and caliopesnow for bringing this info to our attention!
This is Star Wars level type spying.
HODOR!!!!
Sue’s finally awake.
“Reader Bran is Bae” I like this person
Does the knight in that video have two swords? I can’t tell for sure, but if so, that’s extremely unnecessary. If its Arthur Dayne, he should be using Dawn, nothing else.
“The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.”
No. That’s his scabbard.
The Dragon Demands,
Thanks, I needed that
That guy looks a bit too thin to be Sean Bean. That said, I still hope it’s him.
Did Brienne throw him off a cliff?
I noticed that the armor the KG are wearing doesn’t appear to be the gold and white armor that we have seen the KG wear in previous seasons…which makes me wonder if it means that the armor for Aerys KG looks that different or if Bran sees this vision in a dreamlike setting and they are going for subdued coloring!
So…someone needs to reward Richard Atkinson. I’d offer boob shots…of someone else.
I am ridiculously excited for this season.
The Dragon Demands,
So f*cking awesome.
This guy who videoed is awesome!! But he mentions that Stannis and Ramsey Bolton r on set in longer version? Is that probable for them to b there?
LadyShelly,
Thank you.
People disappointed by
That’s my take on it.
I’ve watched the video several times. I’m convinced that the knight is using two swords. Both glint, and he’s swinging both arms. Its not a scabbard after all. Ugh. So lame.
Tower of motherfucking Joy.
Damn, i think that’s Ned fighting Dayne and then comes Howland Reed and kills Dayne from behind
Rella,
Since Ramsay is born around that time, no Ramsay isn’t there. And he’s not using the weirnet either. The guy who made the video was fairly far away from the people. If you can’t identify someone in the video, then he couldn’t either. No Ramsay, no Stannis.
Maybe because it’s Sean Bean’s character some people expected him to die.That’s why they might be disappointed.
AMAZING!!!! I love this place, a girl may get her fix here
Richard is my hero! The tilted, longer video is awesome!
HotPinkLipstick,
How excited are you!! Hee hee! (;
I love what sounds to be MP “the Holy Grail” soundtrack to this video
Sue the Fury,
I agree. Based on Arthur’s legendary skills, being underhanded is really the only way to go in that scenario.
I think it’s safe to say the three kingsguard will actually fight. I could see three in the photos posted yesterday, in greyish armor and could see a white cloak from one of them. I feel like the scene won’t resonate if it isn’t Bean fighting. No one cares if he looks old!
Hopefully D & D don’t change any of the dialogue from the scene in the book, it was golden. It’s the least homage they could pay to GRRM at this point.
Sue the Fury,
But how else was a 2 on 1 fight supposed to end? Like you said, he had to turn his back on one of them.
Dorian,
It does seem like he is using two swords…
What episode is this happening? Any identity of the director?
*tip a cup of wine to the man who broke his leg while scurrying around the hillside. His sacrifice is appreciated across the narrow sea*
The personal hype I harbor for it to actually be “Beanie”, is incredible. Part of the reason why I feel like it will be recast, I don’t always have the greatest luck my brethren.
Making the 8,
I’m sure someone will comment with the answer soon, but there was at least discussion of a director in the general area so there is either straight confirmation at this point or idle speculation based on location (of where one of the directors of this season is staying at close to this shoot) at the very least.
Dorian,
Maybe he somehow loses Dawn during the fight? If we don’t get to see that sword at all, I’ll be pretty disappointed.
Because he’s using more than one sword? As far as we can see, he’s outnumbered and has to do what he can to survive. As I said in the other thread, even in the histories and lore that has Jaime’s narration, AD is depicted has having two blades (One is no doubt Dawn). Maybe he just likes using two blades. (Admittedly there may not be a connection between the H&L and this fight but it is an interesting thought).
On another note, if the choreography is any indication, I think this will be a fun sequence. Hopefully they don’t use too many quick edits and shaky cam while filming. One of my biggest pet peeves in modern action scenes is that they always cut away too quick or you don’t see enough of it because the camera shakes and is to close.
I agree with the poster that said AD is using two swords. Meh on one hand because the sword is so iconic in the books, but TV wise its standard thing to have the “bad ass” always use two swords, plus it makes Ned look a little more awesome for holding his own with just Ice.
Sue the Fury,
woah oh no why did i watch this 🙁
The video is not showing at all, for me… Was it deleted? I just can’t see it. 🙁
Just gonna put it here,canon stuff from Darkstar.
“My house goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days,” he complained. “Why is it that my cousin is the only Dayne that anyone remembers?”
“He had a great sword,” Darkstar said.
Arthur Dayne is not a god,he is a great fighter from a house that seems to have a lot of great fighters.But why is only him so famous?Might also have something to do with the sword,as Darkstar implies.Only confirmed by this video,face to face with the enemies and the sword in his hand he has no problem to put them down but he is just as vulnerable as anyone else to be taken by surprise.He is just a man after all.Realistic end for me,I have no problem with it.
Didn’t the casting call say he has a famous sword
Sue the Fury,
It’s not bean.
Are we sure that is Arthur Dayne? Could it be Oswell Whent? He looks like he’s wearing a helmet and using two swords. Didn’t the previous video have Dayne fighting several men with a single sword and no helmet?
Also, wasn’t it mentioned in the casting call that the fight would begin outside and continue inside? You’d like to think Dayne would be the last of the KG standing.
“Apparently this weekend, a man even broke his leg on nearby rocks trying to reach the castle.”
Dammit, Sandor!!!
Heh, the complaints already remind me of ‘Barristan Selmy didn’t die like this!‘ .
Thomas Sandstone,
Good catch, he does have two swords in the histories and lore. I just think its an unnecessary departure from the novels – Dawn is a greatsword, and so it should remain. Further, fighting with two swords is just … unnecessarily flashy.
Yeah, spot on. Like Barristan dying somewhat ignobaly in an alleyway. It’s perfectly ASOIAF to me.
It is, to me, a shitty way to take down a legend. It’s realistic, completely logical, very likely the only way it could be done, and what any of us would have to do if we even got that far.
But it’s still shitty. 😉
selena,
I don’t think he has Ice. I think he’s using a one-handed sword.
Right on.
“It’s going to be a mess. They should have let GRRM write at least this part of the show.”
Just thought I’d see what the Rant and Rave thread thought about this. hahaha.
I wish I lived near filming, I would totally climb cliffs and crawl on my belly for shots, it looks fun!
Super excited to watch next season, too bad we have to wait so long for it!
I wonder how many such events will slowly come to light about Robert’s rebellion.
Dayne dual wielding swords sounds bad ass. I don’t think he is gonna start off with 2 swords, rather take someone else’s.
AFAIK Ned used a regular sword in Tower of joy. The huge greatsword you see him swinging about could actually be Dawn if someone disarmed Arthur, then he gets 2 random swords to continue fighting.
“Get ‘im Beanie”…”oh, they just told me to fook off”! This dude is awesome. That’s a superfan trekking across the Spanish desert!
Brilliant Monty Python theme music…bravo to you sir for your dedication.
Sansarya,
Must be terrifying when you’re about to get busted by crewmembers, like the guy in that FB video!
Why? Because it is entirely impossible for him to have picked up a second sword during the fighting?
Dorian,
I would agree if it was a one v one scenario but given what’s going on I think its a bit more pragmatic but only just. Its also why I have no problem with the way it ends. This AD is clearly skilled and puts up a great fight, they either had to overwhelm him or fight dirty, which is what happened here.
Who cares how AD falls? I expect HR to be sneaky and it is part of Ned and HR’s secret. What matters is what/who is inside the castle.
And BR is going to be showing Bran this weirnet recollection.
Anyone catch who the director is?
Hodor’s Bastard,
That’s going to be so cool, with Max and Isaac walking about observing the fight; this indicates how powerful the weirnet is, and how it puts you into the thick of the events. If it’s a present event, maybe Bran can warg into and affect the outcome.
Wow, thete are some bigger GoT nuts…errr….enthusiasts than me out there. Not sure I would risk life or limb to get these shots. But Thank You!!
Pigeon,
But better than watching a legendary swordsman take down your best friend who is only there to rescue his sister. Arthur Dayne, a legend he may be, but he served a regime that murdered Howland’s liege lords: Rickard and Brandon. Howland’s duty was to save Ned, he found a way. Just like Jon found a way to kill Karl Tanner with some help from a terrified woman.
That choreography looks great. Hopefully the final version doesn’t have too many cuts.
I’m rather fascinated at how the weirnet recollection/flashback will be able to follow the men inside the castle…with audio intact. 🙂
This is a typical GOT death. Shitty, ironic and realistic. Nearly every alternative people have come up with would look silly and gimmicky on screen, especially the Howland skinchanges Arthur and Howland does something magical to Dawn ideas. Howland took underhand measures to help defeat Dayne. There was no honour in it. GOT is down with those who fight without honour.
I am suddenly unable to read comments with spoilers covered…anybody else facing the same problem?
Speaking of FOOKIN ledgends!!! Gin Alley will never again see his equal
I’m just excited to see Howland and the Tower. And he’s a crannogman. That’s exactly how I knew he would have to step in. They use poison and stealth because of their size. We know Ned had incredible respect for Dayne. He thinks about him as a great knight years later, honorable. I don’t think he actually wanted to kill him, so Howland had to step in.
My husband saw the video and he can’t stop smiling. He says, “If you ever talk to the guy who took that, tell him good job…and when I see that scene all I’ll be hearing in my head is ‘Get him Beanie’.” 🙂
Second this. Do we know where this falls in the season? Was it Bender? So it would be either the fifth or the sixth?
Hodor’s Bastard,
They can warg into beasts and birds, so why not a dog/cat and just follow Ned into the Tower.
Sue the Fury,
I guess I was just hoping for a bit of magic. Or some sort of negotiated settlement proposed by Howland, that saw Ned take Jon home and raise him. But the way it seems to go down was always the most likely.
Any word of whether Lyanna is there? Or if she’s in the exterior shots as well as interior shots?
I never thought howland used magic, but I did always get the impression that he was the one that killed dayne “dishonorably”. Ned’s dreams are full of guilt and resent. I always thought howland may have cut dayne with a poisoned blade or a timely shot to dayne when he wasn’t aware. But I for one never got the impression from neds dreams that he killed dayne. That confrontation seemed to always haunt him more because it didn’t go down how he wanted, than otherwise.
It’s not EXPLICIT in the books that Ned is just an average swordsman, but it is clear Dayne is one of the greats. However, from Ned’s telly fight with the great Jaime, it’s implied Ned is a very good swordsman indeed. Plus earlier in the season Ned had told Jaime that he never fights in tourneys so his enemies won’t know what he’s capable of. Anyway, for programme purposes, viewers probably think Ned’s brilliant with a blade.
Interesting, the parallel in that Howland helped Ned at ToJ and later a foot soldier helped Jaime by spearing Ned. Jaime showed his respect for Ned and his remorse by killing the soldier; Ned showed his remorse and respect for Dayne by burying him with honor and returning Dawn to Dayne’s family.
“Get him beany get him !!”
Pigeon,
I’m with you on this. Expected, logical, but shitty.
tyjon,
But think about that…they would be warging into something in the past…and jumping to another perspective in “real time” during the recollection. This is not just a memory, it is a 3rd party warging and switcheroo. And maybe Bran/BR can actually warg a dead Ned to access his memories floating in the ether somewhere? 🙂
GeekFurious,
Ahaahhahahahahaha that’s so true
Sue the Fury,
It is no-win. If the legend is out-dualed, then he’s “diminished” because “it is known” that the legend could defeat any and all opponents. However, if the victor kills the legend in some practical way, then the victor is “diminished” because “it is known” that the victor would never stoop to such depths.
Of course, that Hodor’s Bastard has the right of it: Joe Viewer and Jane Reader really won’t care because they will have no prior expectations concerning any of the characters involved, and they will know the general outcome because it’s a flashback; they will be far more interested in what is coming next.
Oh, I’m not complaining, and I don’t think it’s at all unrealistic. It’s not a fairy tale situation and the end result is the same. It just recalls to my mind Season 1 with the city guard taking down Ned much to Jaime’s chagrin, and also Ned never forgiving Jaime (because he was a kingsguard, of course) for stabbing Aerys (an insane tyrant responsible for massacre and murder of Ned’s own brother and father) in the back, and find it interesting to think of. Going down in a blaze of glory would be fitting and exciting and nice and all, but not really what makes the most sense. It’s a small battle, not a pay per view. 🙂
This puts an interesting twist in Ned’s flawless track record of honor. Also gives him less of a right to look down on Jaime. Not the same thing, but it should have made him understand a little more.
And to those who think dayne using two swords will lesson his legend; do you know how ridiculously good a sword fighter is to use both hands ambidextriously, proficiently, and at the same time. Don’t worry, dayne will have dawn, but they are showing us that dayne is better than Jaime ever dreamed to be by showing his skill with multiple swords.
Hodor’s Bastard,
Well, if all life and their memories are stored (Avatar anyone) and Warg’s can access it, then if a dog followed Ned inside, Bran accesses that memory; or Bran can just jump to any beast or person from the fight location into the tower. Perhaps a bird rests on a window sill high above Lyanna’s bed and we get a vantage point to that event, which would be quite a beautiful shot, if done right.
Ned’s dreams are guilt-induced nightmares, yes. However, that probably is because Ned subsequently learned that an entire war was fought on false pretexts. After all, Ned probably is going to learn that
Add to this that Ned would be most comfortable being a moral absolutist, and now he’s stuck having to juggle dishonorable actions and words in the name of greater honor, and: Voila! You have all the makings for a lifetime of nightmares replete with cliches. More or less honorable deaths for the foes would have next to no impact: that would be adding or subtracting a few pennies from a dragon’s hoard of guilt.
Joey,
Um, no.
1) Ned was battling for his life to get to his sister – a sister he thought was kidnapped and raped. He would stab a million people in the back to get to her. Who wouldn’t?
2) Dayne, as legendary and valiant as he was, served an insane Mad King who had Ned’s brother struck down, whose son apparently stole away Lyanna Stark and set in motion a rebellion that took endless lives.
There are really few heroic deaths in GOT. Honorable, sure. But look at Selmy. 1 vs a ton of Harpies, fought hard, but in the end someone took him down from behind or whatever. Doesn’t make his death less heroic.
No one would defeat Dayne one on one. But Ned was desperate, fighting for his sister’s life (in his mind).
Rastafarian_Targaryen,
It’s Game of Thrones. There will be more cuts in the span of this fight than you can count.
After last year’s Water Garden fight that looked more like the Sand Snakes were doing rhythmic gymnastic routines than fighting, I feel pretty confident they are goingto get this choreography right.
I don’t care if Dayne uses two swords, spurs on his boots and a laser beam strapped to his forehead as long as it looks good and realistic.
Dayne got taken down at the ToJ. I just want to see it. Period.
Of course, I’m expecting rapid flash cuts on unreliable WeirwoodTV rather than a full, coherent flashback.
To anyone complaining about Dayne possibly using 2 swords, you’re missing something… It’s entirely possible he’s using his sword scabbard in his other hand. If nothing else, you can block and parry blows and if your opponent(s) are not wearing helms, you can still give ’em a good crack in the noggin with it. 🙂
Hodor’s Bastard,
That’s some Assassin’s Creed shit lol. Not crapping on your idea. That’s just what it reminded me of
Hardly: the comparison is less apples and oranges than apples and hand-grenades. Of course, Ned does not know the whole truth behind Jaime’s actions: like everyone else, Ned thinks that Jaime was just killing a King, not saving a city. That knowledge, of course, really would strain Ned’s sense of honor: but I think that there was enough in him that recognized the “Zeroth Law” that he could have worked it through.
And for what it is worth: remember that Ned holds Howland Reed in very high regard. If Ned had problems with how Dayne died, then he would have problems with Reed. This, and several other details point to Ned having problems with why Dayne (and hundreds others) died. Moreover, Ned was no novice to battles: and he would have known first hand that courtyard chivalry has no place on a battlefield of any size.
Wimsey,
That could be why in the books it mentions the dream as “an old dream”. He may have had the dream shortly after the battle and then again once the shit starts to hit the fan in kings landing years later. By all means I expect Ned to find out that everybody was fighting for the same thing at that tower… The child.
Sorry don’t know how to spoiler tag in replies
Pigeon,
But didn’t the gallant Jamie wait for his father’s bannermen to enter King’s Landing before having the ‘courage’ to kill Aerys, which by the way also happened only after Aerys ordered his Kingsguard to kill Tywin? People only remember that Jamie saved King’s Landing from burning (which he did) but they tend to forget that that wasn’t his only motivation. Perhaps, if Ned had known about the wild fire, the scorn he felt for Jamie’s choice would have subsided but from Ned’s perspective, Jamie’s killing of Aerys was nothing if not opportunistic.
Joey,
Well Ned Stark has always come across as haunted/conflicted by something (multiple things probably) to me in the show and the books.
Howland makes the kill, not Ned. In a further reflection of that S1 scene, Ned could admonish him as Jaime, um, admonished that soldier who stabbed Ned in the leg.
This is my favorite part of Game of Thrones fandom, arguing about the adaptation choices. I love the TOJ sequence as read in the youtube clip set to music and illustrations, really, and it seems like they are paying attention to the scene and doing it justice.
Possible concerns:
1) Too much walking through a vision stuff, with lots of camera 360ing around Bran and Bloodraven as Max von Sydow says “Gee, isn’t this mystical?”
2) Sean Bean isn’t there. I doubt I’ll care, and I agree we would probably would have seen him. Even worse is if he’s there and it’s Sean Bean’s head badly digitally pasted on a double’s body and de-aged. Though I’d be okay with it if it was good or bandaged liberally with swirling clouds of mist, as in the dream
3) The show’s fight choreography has a pretty bad track record in Spain so far, but again, this looks great. And the location looks perfect
Stark Raven’ Rad,
Jaime didn’t kill the soldier. He just punched him.
I don’t get the angst over how Dayne was killed.
The Crannogmen are none for guerrilla tactics and poison… I would say stabbing in the back fits those traits perfectly well.
I would guess some legends are made because of how the knight died valiantly and some legends are made because of how the knight lived valiantly. I don’t think that all legendary knights lived and died in an heroic manner. Honestly, to me dying defending the royal family seems to be heroic enough no matter the manner how the death blow came.
Chris,
Type “[” then “spoiler]” with no space in between. Then “[” followed immediately by “/spoiler]” That gives you the wonderful
.
That written, it no longer qualifies as a spoiler. Ned is long dead, there is no chance that this could be added to the show. At this point, it’s about Jon. I suppose that it is also about Bran, too: this will affect what Bran does given his apotheosis.
At the end of the fight it appears that someone comes up from behind the knight that “BEANIE” is fighting and stabs him.
Howland Reed?
Nadia,
Still, the result is two guys getting stabbed in the back.
Nadia,
I agree. Also, Ned didn’t swear to protect anyone with his life like Jaime did with his Kingsguard vow. So apples and oranges.
Ahhh so many oathes…
There might well be a Thomas More type of mystique around Dayne: refusing to renounce a lost cause and paying for it with his life. One act of martyrdom can make up for a few atrocities!
There are indications in the book that Dayne treated commoners pretty well when it was useful, which indicates a reasonable level of intelligence. However, whether that was intelligence enough to be practical, or intelligence enough to be empathetic, we have no idea.
Good way to put that, Ser W! I always thought that Ned’s “honorable” whacking of the NW deserter (Will or Gared?) was with questionable merit and premature judgement. Why didn’t he want to know more? Moral absolutists can be amazingly ignorant of the “real” story.
Wimsey,
Gotcha, spoiler brackets sweet!
Hah! Indeed. Believe it or not, I read a great Sci-fi book by AC Clarke and S Baxter a decade or so back that had the concept of “catching the light of the past” in order to reveal truths and lies of history. This technique seems awfully similar, especially if a 3rd party perspective is used for the weirnet recollection. As tyjon implied, this is powerful stuff indeed.
HotPinkLipstick,
I think it will also be multiple flashbacks, but they build on each other as Bran grows more powerful.
Can you imagine the collective freakout if the closing scene to E1 or E2 is Bran practicing the WeirNet, sees a face that says “Promise me Ned” then its cut to black?
Sometime later in the season Bran pulls off the full Weirnet vision/memory and the full reveal is set in concert with Jon’s revival.
HotPinkLipstick,
I’m fairly confident that a breakdance-fight has to come into play at SOME point….
ThIs is Oswell Whent fighting. If it was AD, why the hell he would fight yesterday without a helmet with 4 man and than die with a helmet?? Thats impossible!!!
Also Oswell wore a distinctive helmet emblazoned with a black bat with its wings spread, symbolizing House Whent.
Do you use NoScript or Ghostery? It’s hosted on Facebook, so programs like these two would filter it out.
Jaime didn’t kill the soldier. He definitely punched the soldier, who most likely fell down unconscious. He didn’t die.
EDIT: Sorry, just saw The Tattered Prince already answered. (Jaime did kill Jory, though, yikes.)
Funny thing from twitter.
Victor Anichebe (football player West Bromwich Albion) bumped into Kit and Rose in some hotel (but from other tweet it looks like it’s in London) He wanted a pic with them, but they refused him. Who knows why. Now he hopes that Jon is truly dead. 😀 Since they’re still filming at Saintfield (some heavy action apparently) he should be there, but maybe he finished his part.
Lord Snow,
Promise me Ned…That would be epicly awesome. It would be good to know who is exactly director there. My best guess would be Bender since he’s in Spain right now.
Do you have to have a facebook account to be able to watch the video, or has it been removed?
That would absolutely work and create a complete arc for Bran over the season. Bran would be on a voyage of discovery about his new abiities, using the building flashback as the measure of how strong he has become, but at the same time the flashback itself has importance. I like that idea.
Well, you know Gwendoline Christie actually WAS a rhythmic gymnast at some point, and she did say she spent three days filming a fight scene. I’m thinking that was probably a cross between hiphop and ballet. Nigel will give it a standing ovation and Mary Murphy will scream.
GeekFurious,
haha, right? i applaud all of you guys out there, doing what it takes to get spoilers. I bow down!
Shups,
Many speculated that what we saw yesterday was actually a rehearsal and framing for the camera. I on’t know what the technical term is in the filming industry is but they would be looking to see the best angles. the framing, actor positioning, lighting, etc, etc. A dry run through of sorts. OR yesterday we saw only the start of the battle where AD was not there (wasn’t there a guy in armor standing to the side out of camera shot), So in the scene, maybe AD starts up in the tower. Then today we see the last part of the fight. AD hears the fighting, runs out of the tower (or off camera runs into the scene), finds his fellow KG going down, joins the fight.
Basically yesterday was the first part of the fight or just a rehearsal and today, what we saw, was the end of the fight.
Geralt of Rivia,
Poor Kit and Rose, they were probably trying to have a romantic interlude. They can’t even have some time alone without people bugging them.
New Casting:
http://deadline.com/2015/09/robert-aramayo-game-of-thrones-nocturnal-animals-1201550645/
This guy is amazing. Footage was great for spoilers, but the ending was very entertaining! Kudos to him for being able to sneak so close and onto the set, and kudos to the guy who broke his leg trying to do the same. XD
Man, if Jack Bender really is the director for this, it seems like he’s getting a lot of key moments for this season. And if that’s the case with episodes 5 and 6, it looks like we won’t be getting that traditional mid-season lull (although no GoT episode is actually a “lull” IMO).
Hi-Fi,
Has to be young Howland Reed, right? Looks a lot like Jojen.
Hi-Fi,
Flashback… someone? He has a Greyjoy or Reed look. Well, he looks like Theon and Jojen, at any rate. Doesn’t have to be a flashback role, of course.
Hi-Fi,
Young Reed. 100%, he looks just like Jojen.
There is one thing about the Mad King’s death I do wonder about. Why did Jaime sit on the Iron Throne afterward, where Ned found him? No wonder Ned’s opinion of Jaime was so negative. Why do that, instead of, say, rushing out to save Elia, Rhaenys and baby Aegon from being killed by the Mountain? Protecting them is something a Kingsguard would do; Elia and the children were genuinely innocent.
I don’t get it. I keep thinking there’s still something about that night Jaime hasn’t revealed, not even to Brienne.
This ToJ footage is terrific. Another scene I can’t wait to see in S6.
Anyone seen this casting news yet? Young man by the name of Robert Aramayo:
http://deadline.com/2015/09/robert-aramayo-game-of-thrones-nocturnal-animals-1201550645/
Probably because the transporter hadn’t been invented yet.
OhDanyBoy,
If he is Howland, are we supposed to believe that the crannogmen are blond?
Bran is bae,
Jojen is kinda blonde.
And wigs exist, anyway.
It seems like they’re filling that lull the same way they did with Lysa’s blurted out secrets: mythology revelations.
Bran is bae,
Jojen is blond. Is there something wrong with being blond?
Felt Pelt,
Actually if you watch carefully, Ned angrily pushes away the backstabber’s hand when he rests it upon Ned.
Mihnea,
They are northmen, supposed to have dark hair.
Bran is bae,
Jojen doesn’t. Ah… I understand what kind of guy you are. Won’t engage in a disscussion with you, theres no point.
I noticed that, it’s like he’s pissed he intervened
Dame Pasty,
That’s the price for being famous. You can’t escape that and when you try to have a moment of happiness with your loved one, someone has to to be there asking for a pic or autograph.
Bran is bae,
Young Griff! Couldn’t resist that. 😀
Some people just see Howland Reed behind every corner.
EDIT: Mihnea, on the second thought … yeah I have to admit that. There is something Reed-ish about him. He could be passed as a Greyjoy, but they don’t need such a young actor for any Greyjoy character. Unless it’s some kind of Theon flashback ,but ehm just a wild speculation.
I’m seeing people being wary about (possibly) dual-wielding Arthur and fearful for Dawn. No worries there. “A legendary swordsman and a paragon of knighthood. He carries a hugely famous sword on his back” as per the casting call. There will be Dawn.
Bran is bae,
Hair dye. Wigs. Helmets/hats that cover his head. Or they do nothing because it hasn’t been stated or established on the show that Northmen have brown hair. Plus Jojen is blond, so it fits.
Geralt of Rivia,
But you have to admit, that he looks very much like Jojen
Exit81,
Hair coloure is the last thing they will bother with.
Flora Linden,
He seated in the Iron Throne because he was tired (saving a city from wildfire can be quite stressful), and because he was curious to see who would claim the Iron Throne. I think George made the detail of Jaime sitting on the IT as a red herring, so that we would think that he was another power hungry player in the game of thrones.
As for Elia and the children, I think Martin summed it up quite well in this paragraph (Jaime II, SoS)
Wimsey,
Tin foil hat time:
tyjon,
That would be horrifying.
Who knows, might happen.
Two reasons. One, they would have had their own guards. Two, Jaime would not have been aware of the order.
Jaime had just broken his most sacred vow, killed his king, and saved hundreds of thousands of lives. He surely knew his reputation was about to be blown up, and probably needed an emotional breather. Sadly, as much his reputation might suffer, it was also in his best survival interest to stay by the corpse as proof that he switched sides. Ned entered the throne room expecting a fight.
Protecting Elia and the kids could also very possibly mean fighting his dad’s own men. Gregor was 17 (!) at the time and already a violently irrational fighter (remember, Tywin only ordered the deaths of the children and later regretted not explicitly telling Gregor to spare Elia); you think he’s really going to pause to talk to the white cloak guarding his objective?
Shups,
Most assume it’s AD, because it appears to be towards the end of the battle with only 2 or 3 combatants left, whereas the footage from yesterday showed more combatants with some already dead on the ground.
The part at the end where the guy comes up from behind the same heavily armored man (who was fighting someone dressed like Ned) to take him down lends more evidence to that being the final sequence of the combat.
Who knows though. In the footage from yesterday, the man without a helmet may not have been AD. Or maybe it is someone else and AD isn’t the last man standing against Ned’s crew.
tyjon,
Good one.
Arthur Dayne is a Fury warrior,
Ned a Arms warrior and Howland Reed is the sneaky Rogue that does it from behind. People who played wow will understand haha.
I can see it now…..wait – Maisie is a trained dancer also. Does this confirm a duo jazz routine reunion in the Riverlands???!!!!!!
And perhaps afraid! The last thing that Ned Stark wants to be true is for White Walkers to be back.
I realize that Ned Stark was a “seed” character designed to get the stories going, but it is too bad that GRRM could not do more with him because Ned is a tragic one. I share your concern about moral absolutists – trying to fit reality into moral absolutes often is like shoving a square into a round hole – but Ned seems to someone who tries to be morally flexible intellectually while being wanting moral absolutes emotionally. I think that we saw some good examples with Arya,when he tells her that lying about Nymerria was not dishonorable (although, if I recall, he hesitates as if it was hard to say!), and actually arranging sword-fighting lessons for her.
And it’s too bad because Ned being placed in the situation where he has to uphold honor by being dishonorable in many ways is almost like a Twilight Zone “be careful for what you wish” purgatory ending. He gets to keep doing the Right thing by doing the Wrong thing over and over and over…..
(It’s stuff like this that makes me a fan of GRRM’s work regardless of anything else: damned if you do, damned if you don’t, doubly damned if you spend any time equivocating, and thrice damned for doing any of the above! It is multiple choice test taking in Hell…..)
Sue the Fury,
I took video of the moon this weekend with my phone. My eyes could see all of the craters – it looked like a bowling ball burning red hot.
The images my phone captured look like a marble shot from 200 feet away.
Kilgore Tully,
Being stuck between Aerys and Tywin would make anyone go nuts. Neither man was worth it.
As for the rest, who knows. Until the books or show bring that time up again, I will always feel that there’s something else that hasn’t been revealed about what happened.
In the end, Jaime just shouldn’t have sat on the throne. That one moment made everything worse for him.
Seradan,
Yea, but which character would be Leeroy Jenkins?
People who make videos in vertical phone orientation must be shot.
Could not he get a cheap camcorder with normal optics.
lol at all these people getting mad because Reed backstabbed Dayne.
“fair”? “cheated”? bitch was gonna kill his nigga, he’s 100% correct in doing so. stop romanticizing shit. it’s war.
you’d think after 17 years since the first book was released you’d get some perspective as to what right and wrong actually is in that world.
People are forgetting one important thing that Ned has over Arthur….motivation. Yes, Arthur is loyal and would fight to his death (clearly!ha) for his duty and Rhaegar. BUT Ned is desperately seeking his beloved sister, after having lost his father and brother. Combine that with a bit of luck, circumstance, and its completely plausible that Ned would win.
Ned is obviously well above an average fighter. Twenty years later he was holding his own against Jamie Lannister. He was at least as good as Robert Baratheon. Only Dayne and Selmy are written as clearly better.
This would be the biggest troll if that was not Stannis, though in my heart, it makes no sense for him to be there. :\
Nathan Moore,
Those were just wild guesses.
*crosses fingers* Please say dancing wolves! Please say dancing wolves!!
tyjon,
Whoa, 11 out of 10 for pure darkness! Actually, the scary thing is, it really is not outside the realm of possibility.
Wimsey,
That’s why it was horrifying to read… it might just happen!
Oskaras,
Ned did use Ice during Roberts Rebellion. His father would have no reason to bring Ice with him when he went to Kings Landing for Brandons trial. Great Swords are used for War or executions. Ned had to go back to Winterfell to call his banners before he went to war. He would have picked up Ice there.
Master of Boobs,
In the TV show, maybe, but that was a change. Ned is not a great swordsman in the books, which is pretty much what we’re talking about here, the Tower of Joy story and how could Ned have defeated Dayne as written. If Ned were a great swordsman it would have been mentioned, as it is for every other character that is an incredble swordsman. When people like Jaime are considering other great fighters, Ned never crosses their mind. I think GRRM has been quoted as saying Ned was a competent swordsman, but more of a commander type, and his brother Brandon was the real swordfighter.
Danny,
Exactly.
Fuck Arthur Dayne for willfully serving a psychotic murderer even after finding out he is dead. All three Kings-guard still had no problem dying for the honor of a dishonorable dead man. Fuck em all.
I hope all three were killed with poison and died slowly. All they had to do was allow Ned to see his sister. What would be the harm in that? It actually makes no sense for them to continue fighting the war after finding out Rhaegar and Aerys are dead and the war is over.
The more I think about it the more I don’t like them. They didn’t care about upholding any sacred vows, they were just bitter losers having sat out the entire war and wanted to see some action by killing a true hero who simply wanted to rescue his dying sister. Also technically they tarnished their reputation by defying their rightful King Robert at the time they were killed.
I must wait the final editing, they’ll do something cool I hope. This is not the book series and in the show AD is no more than a name on the white book. No unsullied knows about his magic sword, his deeds and his prowess in battle, so they have to establish that in this fight (unless they go for a lot of exposition in the previous episodes) and making him go down in this way, by negligently give his back to an enemy, definitely does not help.
HighGarden Harlot,
After Aerys, Raeghar and little Aegon, Vyseris was king by right, not Robert.
Besides, we know by Jaime’s thougts that Raeghar was someone who inspired loyalty and devotion beyond duty, so they probably wanted to keep faith to their word and protect Lyanna and the baby at all costs, as they were ordered to.
Luka Nieto,
And, I should add, a great example of thinking outside of the box by tyjon. (And that stands even if it’s wrong in the end: a conjecture can be really insightful without being correct.)
lalla,
One reason why I suspect that Rhaegar and Lyanna did legally marry is just this. If they did, then the Kingsguard was guarding the infant King of Westeros, at least insofar as they knew.
It would almost be worth it to hear the dead silence around the world for 10 seconds when that scene suddenly aired……
100% agree. Especially when you consider that the book version of the Iron Throne is basically the Aggro Crag. Hardly just a bench for a random sit-down.
I adore Jaime’s character. Arrogant as he comes across, it’s a façade. His true flaw is his pride. Here’s a guy who stares in shame at his mostly-empty page in the White Book, when all he had to do to be considered a hero was say what he did: or, in other words, brag.
Contrary to the whole, “By what right does the wolf judge the lion,” comment, I believe Jaime sat on the throne because he wanted to be judged. He was wracked with guilt after making a brutally impossible decision, and needed someone to tell him he’d done well despite all signs to the contrary. So he made it look even worse. If anything, the wolf/lion comment was just about being pissed that his first judge happened to be moral absolutist Ned Stark. Maybe, deep down, he knows his own opinion of himself would be better if it was anyone else.
I think Jaime made his secret humility his penance, and in his own way that means shouldering a lifetime of scorn. So he plays into the notion that he’s an arrogant, pretty rich boy so that people will hate him; not because he’s a masochist, but because he thinks he deserves it. He doesn’t loathe Ned for judging him; he loathes the idea that if he were the honorable Kingsguard he thought he’d become when he first took the cloak, he’d judge himself exactly as Ned did.
Sitting on the throne was the dumbass move of a kid whose worldview had just been shattered beyond repair. Whatever broken world he saw in that moment, he saw himself as the most broken person in it; that was the throne he was sitting on when Ned came in.
Proud of the guy that shot the video.People underestimate the enthusiasm we have for this show! GOT is life!
HighGarden Harlot,
Robert was a Usurper and had very little claim to the Throne if any. His brothers even less so. Rhaegar was next in line to be king, when he died, his older children were next, his son mainly. With both of his older children gone, Jon would be next if he is indeed Rhaegar’s son and if he and Lyanna were married. If not, then Viserys and Daenerys is next to claim it.
It’s possible but it looks like the filming stopped before the “hand push”. The dead guys sit up before the push. It could be a tierd high 5 after the actor was walking away.
Wimsey,
They still could have allowed Ned to see her.
We NEED Bean confirmation!!!
Sue?! Anything??
If that’s the reason, then frankly, that’s a stupid one. Go sit on the floor. He was just too naive about the implications of what happened that night.
Conan,
No but Maisie Williams did steal his wallet.
Kilgore Tully,
Very nicely put!
Thomas Sandstone,
Whats the point of having a KINGS guard if they are off guarding the prince and his bastard during a war. The heir to the throne after Rhaegar would have been Aegon. Why did nobody care about poor Aegon?
It is clear they had no love for Aerys but still were pissed at Jaimie for killing him. They dishonored their vows when they decided to pledge their loyalty to Rhaegar over the King while Aerys was still alive. Yet everyone including the three of them shit on Jaimie for doing the one thing that could have ended all the bloodshed from the beginning. If they had been brave enough to arrest the King and put Rhaegar on the throne as regent while Aerys lived out the rest of his life in a padded cell that would have been more honorable then leaving him and the queen and the crown princess and Rhaegars children all alone in Kings Landing. How could Rhaegar or his friends in the Kingsguard allow him to make this horrible mistake knowing when the Stark’s and Baratheons found it would no doubt lead to a horrible confrontation with Aerys whom they themselves were already plotting on Usurping at Harrenhal?
They are all hypocrites and cork soakers.
Best Kingsguard in history?
Bullshit.
Wimsey,
That’s one of the things I love best about these books as well.
HighGarden Harlot,
And just how were they supposed to do anything you suggested when there were people in the guard or even the city that was still loyal to Aerys or were, at the very least, afraid of/making excuses for him? Its not as simple as you would think. Yes they messed up but then again no one is blameless in this situation, not even Jaime.
Then again that is the beauty of it, not everyone is this way or that, there is more to this world than just a black and white view of things.
Ned is a very good swordsman in the books. One of the best. But not flashy, nor a fan of tournaments.
Starks had been in Westerns for thousands of years before the Targaryens barged in. King of the North will have a better claim.
Master of Boobs,
To a throne that was made by the Dragon family? Unlikely. And the Starks weren’t the only kings in Westeros, every region had its own king and queen, except Dorne, at a certain point before the conquest. Of course, like Dorne, the North wasn’t technically conquered unless you count surrender as being conquered.
Ned Stark wasn’t even the best swordsman in his family.
From “So Spake Martin”
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1142/
It’s like this: Ned can be a great character and leader, with a cool sword, without being the best swordsman. The show made him out to be a much better fighter than he was in the books, and that’s okay.
Thomas Sandstone,
Rhaegar had many people who wanted him on the throne apparently. I don’t know what they were waiting for but certainly taking Lyanna to Dorne before the plan was finished was the dumbest thing you could possibly do if you are Rhaegar. If Rhaegar wanted to marry Lynna I can’t imagine any Lord father having a problem with a reigning crown prince soon to be King marrying his daughter. Rickard Stark would have most definitely been down with the Rhaegar coup.
We better get a damn good explanation for why Rhaegar acted so irrationally with the whole Lyanna thing because that alone was the Targaryans downfall. If he had handled things like a gentleman and simply divorced his wife and offered Robert another alternative perhaps Danaerys for a wife(when she comes of age) I’m sure all the madness could have been avoided. He could then marry Viscerys off to Cercei Lannister to get the Lannisters to openly back him. (All of this would happen in secret of course.)
I am not sure why you equate “very good” or “one of the best” with “best”. Very good means exactly that, very good. One of the best means that him holding off Dayne long enough to be stabbed in the back is entirely plausible in the books, and in the show. My response was to some labeling him “average”, which he is clearly not as written. Average fighters get killed off by the likes of Dayne or Jamie rather instantly.
And you misrepresented the quote. “Brandon was the best of the Starks with sword in hand, and the best jouster as well. But Benjen has other skills that serve him well as a ranger… and Ned was likely the best battle commander.”
Sue the Fury,
This.
Ned was a soldier,leader and a tactician but he wasn’t a particularly gifted swordsman. One on one with Dayne with no sizeable advantage he wouldn’t last long. Nor would he have against Jaime but the show thought they’d amp up his fighting ability (as they have done with Brienne) to tell a story. I don’t think his fighting ability is important to his character. It is to Dayne’s though as because we’re not getting to know him fully, he needs a hook…a reason for the viewers to care about him. Being sublime with a sword is that reason.
HighGarden Harlot,
I don’t think Robert would have gone for anyone other than Lyanna, what with the way he still pined for her despite being married to someone else. The Lannister’s wanted the crown prince, not his brother though maybe they would have just had Rhaegar killed or something.
People wanting Rhaegar on the throne means jack squat if they don’t actually do anything to make it happen. Yes, they could have made all the plans in the world to implement it, but its not an easy thing to remove someone from power legally, especially the king. The ramifications of such an act would be terrible if not handled right.
I’m sure Rickard Stark would have loved for his daughter to be queen, but her children would inherit nothing since Rhaegar already had two children from Elia and they couldn’t be so easily set aside – especially if Dorne had anything to say about it. And I don’t know who said it on this website but divorce is not so simple in this world or even this time period. Rhaegar would have needed permission from the faith to do so, and they weren’t likely to give it unless the High Septon was bribed. I think even Henry VIII had difficulty getting divorced if I’m not mistaken yet he was the king.
Rhaegar’s next option would have been to have two wives, but the Faith does not tolerate incest or polygamy, two specific Valyrian traditions. It would have been impossible to convince any Septon to let them get married, unless of course they were bribed. Doesn’t mean the people would accept it though.
Thomas Sandstone,
So I guess Rhaegar really was just another “mad” Targaryan without a plan.
Hope that that hammer hurt.
The story has also made the point that there’s a huge training advantage to being rich. Not to mention the nicer armor.
Saying Ned isn’t a great fighter is like saying someone isn’t a great pro athlete; you’re drawing distinctions between people in the top percentile or two.
If Ned can give Dayne even a little bit of a fight, he’s really good on an absolute scale.
And let’s thank the Japanese for proving my point in the most entertaining way possible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgKg0Hc7YIA
(50 vs. 3; the 50 win with 2 left, meaning the 3 averaged 16 each, and I assure you these particular 3 are no Daynes)
I hope we’re not entertaining the notion that Robert was better suited to be king than Rhaegar. Robert was a drunken lecher who honestly had no more business being king than Aerys did, and certainly wasn’t the rightful king, having “inherited” the throne through conquest rather than by blood.
Robb Snow,
I don’t think anyone here is, at least, I’m not.
The same thing happened with Stannis. In the books he’s just described as the best military commander, with no mention of his martial prowess, whereas in the show they made him “Stannis the Mannis”. Not complaining, just saying.
If it was me, I would have crawled in at night, and installed a remote controlled camera. I can hook one up with a directional wifi antenna from a mile away. Lasts for more than 20 hours filming and streaming. Can be even set on a gimble.
In real life, difference in top, highly trained and experienced fighters is not as dramatic as often portrayed. All royalty had been highly trained by best experts.
Those changes in visual media are entirely reasonable.
Sue the Fury,
Ned wasn’t an average fighter, far from it. Ned is actually one of the best fighters in the Kingdoms. He did not par-take in any tournaments so other fighters couldn’t see his skill when it came to a real fight. Ned kept his fighting ability a secret which in his own regard is quite smart. Dayne was defiantly the better of the two but Ned could hold his own without a doubt
Robert,
That logic is a GoT-only invention.
In that video of Sean Bean being interviewed, he CLEARLY knows what the interviewer is asking and is CLEARLY sheepish about the question, the smile gives it away.
Sean Bean is in that scene, and I can’t fookin wait
Robert,
Bronze Yohn beat Ned. Ned was good, but nowhere near Dayne or close to being one of the best in Westeros.
Regardless of how good Ned was or wasn’t with the sword, he clearly didn’t stand a chance against Arthur Dayne, who was considered by pretty much everyone to be the greatest swordsman alive at the time. Ned admitted that Dayne would’ve killed him if Howland Reed hadn’t intervened, and out of the seven people who took on the three members of the Kingsguard, only Ned and Reed walked away from the conflict alive. That says quite a bit about the skills of the people involved.
Can we agree to avoid any use of the N-word here? It may be trendy in some circles, but still laden with much too much hurtful history for many to take it lightly.
In sparring. And Yohn was a rated tourney fighter.
Exactly. This story is not black and white. It’s grey. I had a conversation with a guy in the Navy and he was livid that Jon Snow left the NW. I was blown away by his level of ignorance.
The reason for Rhaegar keeping Lyanna at the TOJ and for the 3 KG being there is something I hope to find out eventually. I’m sure he felt Elia and his children would be safe in the Red Keep. I don’t think the KG were there because Jon was the rightful heir, at least not initially. My belief is that Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy, and he figured out that Jon was the third head of the dragon/prince who was promised. Was Rhaegar mad? I’d say no, but Aegon V wasn’t mad either, and his own obsession with prophecy led to the tragedy at Summerhall and his death.
Making the 8,
where is the longer version, it is removed from this page?
NYI,
No, because fighting with two swords is difficult and impractical – the possible advantages it confers are minimal, and the disadvantages many. Its not something someone would reasonably do to make their job easier.
My take from the books is Ned was better than Jamie, who was highly regarded. The subtext has always suggested to me the tourney fighters like Jamie were glamorized by the common people and that they were kind of looked down on by real (“street”) fighters.
It’s pretty clear that Ned’s fighting skills were always underrated. He went up against Dayne and while he didn’t beat him, he lived. He also held his own against Jaime Lannister.
Sue the Fury,
I think you’re off base here.
Tournament fighters (where fights aren’t always to the death) use a restricted form of fighting. But it also leads to bad habits when they encounter “street” fighters that can get them killed.
Ghost,
If you are a street fighter, you are at a disadvantage in tournament style, because you have to restrict part of your technique, which slows you down. So this doesn’t mean that Yohn would have beaten Ned in actual combat and my guess is he wouldn’t have.
Carrick,
I’m quoting the author. I am literally quoting the author. What are you trying to prove by arguing with George R.R. Martin about Ned Stark?
The author has stated that Ned Stark is not even the best swordsman from his family. It’s in the link I posted above, from So Spake Martin. And we’re not talking tourney jousting or something. No one even brought that up so that’s some random tangent.
So let me see if I understand this…
GRRM, the man who created the ASOIAF world and Eddard Stark, states that Ned is an average/ good swordsman and some people are debating the fact as if the author knows less about the character he created than they do?
Is that the gist of it?
Bewildering! XD
*faceplam
I can’t believe people are arguing that their headcanon is more accurate than the text and the AUTHOR’S OWN WORDS
Joey,
Yes, but by his own admission he only lived because of Howland Reed, and if that video is anything to go by then
Otherwise, Ned was as good as dead.
I also concur with others here that Jaime was probably not as good as people thought… but I also think Jaime was holding back a bit during his duel with Ned in the show. Remember that Jaime didn’t intend to kill Ned during that scene, so it’s entirely possible he was actually holding back a bit and could’ve totally kicked Ned’s ass at any time.
Still, it’s clear Ned is not a slouch with the blade. He’s no great knight, but I’d say he’s above average at least.
Did you actually read those words? Carefully?
You misinterpret what he said and ignore what is actually written in books.
You completely misinterpret his quote.
I actually theorize Dayne was toying with Ned and would eventually disarm him, he would never kill Ned with Lyanna there, that’s too dishonorable for him, to cause such grief for her.
Joey,
He lived because of Howland. Thats it. And Ned never fought Jaime. Thats only in the show.
Arse! The video has been blocked before I got chance to watch it. What did it show?
HighGarden Harlot,
I guess he was just trying to do his duty, you know, saving the world and such. The problem with the prophecies is that, even if you can be certain something will happen, you never know exactly when it will happen.
Without R+L there would not be a J, so he wasn’t wrong after all.
Book Jaime was far from being only a gallant tourney knight, pretty to look upon; actually he was better with a sword than with a lance. He fought real wars and he was a darn good warrior in them. He was considered to be the most dangerous and feared warrior of the whole Lannister faction in the war of the 5 kings.
There’s no indication anywere in the books that Ned is anything more than an average fighter, where are people getting this idea from that Ned was better than Jaime??
Kilgore Tully,
Sums up Jaime perfectly – he is probably the most complicated character in the books and show. I think by the end of the story he will be a mature person at peace with himself, but he’ll still have to deal with the consequences of what he did before. If he and Dany cross paths, most likely the Aerys story will come up again with some new insights revealed.
(There are some parallels between Jaime and Sansa – both are viewed as “pretty faces” and not taken seriously; their heads were filled with stories and fairy tales about knights and chivalry; and they were naive about the real world, since nobody really taught them that life just wasn’t like in the stories.)
HighGarden Harlot and Thomas Sandstone,
I love your debate about the Kingsguard and the Targaryens. You both make good points.
The commenters here are the best.
🙂
Great discussion unfortunately the video has been taken down…..Any chance of getting one back up?
The Dragon Demands,
A sword forged from a fallen star? Azor Ahai is supposed to be born under a falling star, yes?
Obviously we have the photo of Kit on set but GRRM also pretty much confirmed Jon Snow/Stark/Targaryen being alive on his website. He went through and thanked a lot of the actors whose characters who were dead for their role in getting the Emmy. Kit and Rory McCann were notably absent since its a big list and he goes back to Dannys handmaidens even. He also came out and said that Kit couldn’t make it because he was working
“Last, but certainly not least, I want to thank the dead. We have the best cast in television, as I have said a hundred times, and many of them were on the stage with us last Sunday. Thanks to all of them, of course, and thanks as well to Emilia and Kit and Dame Diana and Kristian and Natalie and Finn, who were off working and could not be there with us. ”
Worst kept secret ever.
Sue the Fury,
{SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER!!!!}
Howland Reed’s wife is Ashara Dayne and so he prevented Eddard Stark’s death by convincing Arthur Dayne to protect Jon rather than die.
Robb Snow,
I think Jaime was the real deal. He was the best swordsman in Westeros before he lost his hand. GRRM has even said that Jaime is a legendary fighter in his universe’s history.
asdf,
Pass me some of what you are smoking.
ctid,
It appears to show Ned vs Dayne in the final portion of the battle. Dayne is wailing away on Ned while dual wielding and is close to finishing him, but Howland Reed sneaks up and stabs Dayne from behind.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
This.
Never understand how people think Jaime was less than he was. He was the best of his generation, and one of the best in the entire saga.
Lord of Boobs,
I think so too.
I will remind people that both in the books and in the movie, Jamie was handed his own by Brienne. But I don’t hear anybody claiming she’s the best of her generation. (I expect to hear excuses about his health now.)
The issue about tournaments arises, because that’s about the only place we know of Jaime’s prowess. Bur tournament fighting is a very different skill than street fighting is. So what made Jaime exceptional at sword in the tournament doesn’t necessarily translate to him being an equal in the much more chaotic environment of actual warfare.
Shorter version, Arthur Dayne was a swordsman who appeared only once in many generations, but Jaime was no Arthur Dayne.
Carrick,
No.
Just no.
GRRM has said in multiple interviews Jaime is (or was) one of the best swordsmen in the history of Westeros. Watch the video for one example. He also refers to Ned as “Competent” which is not exactly a synonym for one with amazing skill…
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/MTV_Worldcon_Interview_Versus
Darquemode,
Sure but George R.R. Martin has long known to be full of shit when it comes to A Song Of Ice & Fire. The man simply cannot be trusted.
Don’t stress too much Sue.
On the Westeros site where they directly quote GRRM saying Ned was “competent”, that Brandon was better and in other places that Jaime, Dayne, Barristan and Robert were the best. There are still people in the comments directly underneath that dispute that. It’s quite funny.
It’s in the FAQ under “how good a swordsman was Ned Stark?”
Carrick,
Read the link Darq posted. And yes, Jaime was malnourished and in chains during his fight with Brienne, and he still gave as good as he got.
Oh Tower of Joy, I hope D&D do you justice.
Darquemode,
Obviously I’m taking GRR Martin’s word about his intent–I’m a reader of the books, but I haven’t read all of the interviews he’s given. S
I think then there is a problem with the encounter with Brienne and the narrative of Jaime being one of the greatest swordsmen of all time. Jaime was malnourished, but trying to kill Brienne. Brienne was defending herself, but trying not to kill Jaime. I rate that as overall advantage Jaime.
If Brienne broke into Jaime’s cell and attacked him, then okay, the malnourished argument works. But by my best estimate, Jaime had walked over 100 miles before he attacked Brienne. During that period, he generally was able to walk normally, so we know he couldn’t have been severely undernourished. And probably his diet was better for that time, so you’d expect him to be in “improving shape” not worse. As to the fight itself, I would expect his health to affect his stamina, but there’s no explanation for why it would affect his speed.
As one of the supposed great swordsmen of all time, he would know all of this, and planned his attack accordingly, including the timing and the tactics he’d have used. Unless they were fairly close to par, I just don’t see how Brienne could have survived against Jaime in this scenario.
The other story that comes to mind is the fight between Jaime, Arthur Dayne and the Smiling Knight. The narrative seems to place Jaime and the Smiling Knight about on par in single combat (maybe Jaime slightly below the Smiling Knight), but both below Arthur Dayne.
Outside of tournament fighting, the only real martial feat that I know that Jaime’s performed was thrusting a sword through the back of an unarmored king. The only other “sword work” we know of involves his sister, so not much of a resumé there.
So yes, perhaps GRR Martin intended Jaime’s skill level to be “way up there”. But other than “superman vs batman” comic book scenarios, I haven’t seen a bit of evidence of this.
Regarding Ned vs Jaime, what do know about street vs tournament fighting is experience does count too. Ned was an experienced warrior, and in Westeros style, led his men in a number of major battles. He would have needed to be better than just a “competent” swordsman to survive as long as he did.
Jaime in his first real martial test ends up defeated in battle by a force led by a 15 year old (who nobody is going to confuse with one of the great swordsmen of his day). If we are supposed to interpret Jaime as gifted and above others in martial arts (as opposed to tournament fighting, which is closer to a sport), then I say he needs to throw us a bone here.
Carrick,
Jaime’s exploits and victories that would show his skill take place mostly before the books begin. Just because they are not mentioned in detail in the books does not mean that they do not exist in his past.. Especially considering GRRM mentions Jamie’s skill numerous times in and out of the books. There is evidence of his skill in the books though…
– Jaime won his first melee (not joust) at age 13 against grown men who were knights. No small feat no matter how you look at it.
– Ser Arthur Dayne himself recognized Jaime’s skill and knighted him at age 15. That says something to me!
– Selmy worked with Arthur Dayne and thought Jaime was the best natural swordsman of his generation.
“Tumco Lho. Black as maester’s ink he was, but fast and strong, the best natural swordsman Selmy had seen since Jaime Lannister.” (`ADWD 60(?) – Kingbreaker)
– Brienne herself thought that Jaime unshackled at full strength would defeat anyone.
“It had been all that she could do to keep his blade at bay. He was weak from his imprisonment, and chained at the wrists. No knight in the Seven Kingdoms could have stood against him at his full strength, with no chains to hamper him. Jaime had done many wicked things, but the man could fight! “
– I may be forgetting some since the list is from memory….
Combine those points with the fact GRRM says Jaime is in fact one of the best in the history in Westeros and I simply do not see any reason whatsoever to doubt it.
It comes down to interpretation in the end…..
I guess, in this case, I take what GRRM writes and says at face value without trying to interpret too much ro read into it… You can choose to interpret it differently. We may have to agree to disagree on this.
The lat thing I’m going to say about this (to cheers I imagine) is I don’t really thing there are flaws of the sort I discussed in GRR Martin’s books. What I would say instead is “if you think everything is black and white in Martin’s books, then you haven’t been paying attention”. In other words, I think it’s an interpretational problem on the part of some of the fandom.
Just to illustrate the issues, the main differences between weapons used in tournament fighting and warfare. is in tournament fighting you use a blunted sword with a dull edge.
With a sword used in warfare, the sword has a sharp tip and a sharp blade on at least one side.
With tournament blade you are restricted to inflicting blunt force trauma only.
With a battle sword you can inflict blunt force trauma (blade against mail armor or helm), but also piercing damage (from stabbing with the sword) and slashing damage (from striking an unarmored portion with the sharp edge of the blade). And yes there are tactical consequences to having the ability to inflict additional types of damage (beyond just delivering lethal injuries).
This means your tactics in tournament fighting are very restricted. The skill you develop there is therefore also restricted, and like with other restricting forms of martial arts, can lead to weaknesses in technique.
In addition, the surface of the tournament area is flat, good footing, and you only have one person to contend with at a time.
Fighting in warfare on the other hand is very much a “team” activity. Whether you stay alive depends on not only yourself but on other members of your unit (whom you depended upon to prevent getting attack from behind, e.g., Howland Reed backstabbing Arthur Dayne, while Dayne’s attention is turned towards Ned Stark). The ground is rarely flat, the footing rarely ideal, and you often have obstacles to contend with.
So think boxing versus ju jitsu. Floyd Mayweather wouldn’t last a minute against a skilled Ju Jitsu MMA fighter, even though he’s arguably one of the greatest pugilists of our day. I think Ronda Rousey would destroy Mayweather in an MMA contest, and I don’t doubt he’d destroy her in a boxing match.
GRR Martin has done his research. None of his “heroes” are “heroes” like Aragorn. They are people, with strengths and weaknesses that people have. Nobody is an avatar of the gods, not even Jaime. Jaime is really good at certain things that he’s very experienced at that he has a gift (talent) for. But there’s no reason to expect exceptional skill from somebody in an arena that they are really unexperienced in.
Ned would kill Jaime for the same reason he killed (or helped kill) Dayne. He doesn’t fight alone and he’s going to refuse the scenario of tournament rules.
Darquemode,
Hopefully my further comments will help you understand my perspective on this.
Just keep in mind my argument about the differences between tournament fighting and warfare (hopefully my last comment made that more clear). I’m not disputing Jaime’s tournament experience, I’m questioning how well it transitions to the arena of warfare, where there are no set rules, no dulled blades, etc.
I’m pretty sure that Jaime didn’t take part in any of the warfare of the time. He stayed at the Red Keep during Robert’s Rebellion, didn’t play a part in Greyjoy’s Rebellion, and generally seems to have limited experience in actual warfare. (I’ve always interpreted this in part as the consequence of the overprotectiveness of his father.)
I happen to see the idea of a gifted & skilled swordsman in the tournament arena and a mediocre warrior to be fully consistent with GRR Martin’s worldview here.
After all, that back stab on Jaime’s part was one of the bravest things he ever did.
He says in tge vid that Stannis (Stephen Dillane) was on set. Hope he returns.