Sophie Turner has a new interview this week with The Hollywood Reporter‘s Awards Chatter Podcast. In the podcast, the actress talks with Scott Feinberg about winning the role of Sansa Stark, her experience in the spotlight and getting ready for X-Men: Apocalypse.
Sophie won the role thanks to an extensive Game of Thrones casting search around UK schools; her drama teacher put her up for it, along with several of her friends. It was only her second audition and she didn’t even tell her mother about it until she’d landed a place on the list of the final seven actresses for Sansa.
She emphasizes how uncertain the early days of GoT were for them- she didn’t even know if she’d ever see anyone again after she filmed the pilot. She notes, “I don’t think the original pilot will be aired anytime soon,” since there were several issues with it. The first episode was mostly reshot, and of course the show went on to be a huge hit.
“From day one, I always saw her as a very strong, very clever girl,” Turner tells THR. “Yes, she was kind of blinded by this fairytale of King’s Landing and the capital and being queen — and, I mean, what 13-year-old isn’t or wouldn’t be?” She says, “I was always like, ‘Okay, and then there’s gonna be a point where she finally uses everything — all of that knowledge that she’s soaked up — and uses it to her advantage. And I think season six was the season that she really showed people what she could do and she utilized those skills.”
Turner raves about the Battle of the Bastards and Miguel Sapochnik’s amazing work on the episode, and once again shares how happy she is that Sansa has made her “first kill” with Ramsay.
Being part of Game of Thrones isn’t always easy though, especially when fans are scrutinizing you- and your body.
Turner says, “A lot of it was to do with growing up in the public eye, going through puberty and all of a sudden I didn’t have time to go to my ballet classes and I didn’t have time to go to gymnastics classes — and I love pasta! And so the most difficult part of it was body confidence and that kind of thing. It can really get you down when, like, thousands of people are commenting, ‘Oh, Sansa put on 10 pounds!’ So when I got X-Men, it really was such a blessing in disguise when they said, ‘We’re gonna get you a trainer.’ I was like, ‘I hate you, please don’t do this to me.’ But I got the trainer, I got on a diet and it changed my entire mentality, everything. It really kind of got me out of this rut that I’d been in.”
Funny fact: Sophie can’t get Sky (the British network that airs GoT) at her flat- it isn’t available there, so she’s left trying to catch new episodes where she can. She says her brother attends viewing parties but she isn’t up for that. I can only imagine how fans would react to Sansa Stark turning up to watch Game of Thrones with them every week- actually, they’d probably love it.
Want more? Listen to the Awards Chatter podcast over at The Hollywood Reporter.
Sansa!
In B4 Jon vs Sansa trolls
Let me paraphrase her various interviews about her character of late:
“So, like, Sansa has agency now & is super duper like duper upset that like her bro bro is like the king and shit, right? Because like he didn’t stand up and like say ‘woah no, like don’t stand by me when I just like dude said like we need allies and shit and let’s just totally fuckin’ punt their words in their fuckin’ faces and tell them I don’t wanna be no fuckin’ king you fuckers! Instead, take Sansa because she saved the day by not telling me shit and literally doing nothing but write a fuckin’ letter bros!’ And so Sansa is definitely going to consider that Littlefinger, who LITERALLY SOLD HER TO THE MOST EVIL PERSON EVER WHO REPEATEDLY RAPED HER, is right and she should consider that he’s her best ally. So, yeah, Sansa’s power is in that she’s a complete moron!”
Sansa should end up with Tyrion, because Tyrion is a better character than Jon Snow and Sansa deserves the best.
It makes sense to me, the best most complex male character ends up with the most complex & realistic female character.
Team Tyrion Lannister & Sansa Stark for the endgame. Everyone else can die.
She cant afford hbo go?!
ok wow I was literally in b4 them…
GUYS. Guys. guys.
Do you want complex & flawed characters or not? If not this is the wrong show/book for you. If yes then why are you complaining. please. just. staaaahp.
So on topic.
I have a few quibbles with the Sansa storyline – there was a slight amount of manufactured drama WRT her and Jon but I think it is reasonably well explained by Sansa’s insecurity and trust issues. Sometimes people’s anxieties and personal issues cause them to act a bit irrationally – or rather, the rational decision for them (don’t trust Jon) is not the objectively rational decision (trust Jon cuz he’s a good guy). This doesn’t make her stupid. It makes her a human being. Which is great.
Jon, too, was demonstrated to be a human being. He was very, very dour most of the season. He almost had a death wish. Jon’s goal was to take back Winterfell for Sansa and to try to save Rickon, because he felt it was the right thing to do – after that, he didn’t care what happened. That’s why he didn’t care that they had too few men – why he didn’t care that he was running into certain death when Ramsey let Rickon go. He simply was there to fight and die and finally be at peace. But, he won. And actually because of his recklessness is seen as even more of a hero than ever. Will this break him out of his funk? I certainly hope so. We actually saw him smile when they were in Winterfell.
I’m looking forward to other storylines more than the Northern one, but that’s mostly because my faves are likely to be in the South. Still I’m intrigued by what direction they will take with the Jon / Sansa / LF continuing drama. I think it’s been made quite clear that Sansa does not trust Littlefinger. She literally said “only a fool would trust him” to Jon if that wasn’t clear to people. I also think that Sansa will try to trust Jon, but, that she will feel she is likely to have a lot to contribute WRT to southern type politicks, since in fact she has experience with them. Whereas Jon is clearly the one who is the inspiring leader and military commander. I hope that she will early on propose sort of a dividing of responsibilities (political vs. military leadership) among them. Sansa may be sent on a diplomatic mission to the South, like her mother did for Robb with the Baratheon Bros. Maybe she’ll run into certain people on the way. We’ll see. Ultimately I expect LF to go down by the end of the season as the climax of Sansa’s story – along with the wall coming down as the climax of Jon’s.
Sansa haters in 3…2…1 xD
Again, what knowledge and skills has she gained and how did she utilize those things? About all I noticed is that she spoke up more, which sounded a lot like complaining and pleading more than anything. I suppose to Sophie that felt like a huge thing. I can’t say she did anything skillfully or knowledgeable. She was handed the Vale army and while she did have Littlefinger bring them in she handled it poorly. I don’t know, in this seemingly made up story arc they’ve given Sansa I wouldn’t mind seeing her go a little mad and wacky, end up the NK’s bride and ultimately get roasted by Drogon. Out in left field there?
Duck and cover!!
I wish there was somewhere a transcript of this because I literally can’t make myself listen to it lol
GeekFurious,
Having a bad day?
Well, with her not watching religiously like we do, I can see where she thinks the way she does.
Dear Sophie, please get HBO GO so you can grasp the whole plot.
I am not surprised with her not watching, somewhere on this site there was an interview with the actor who played Stannis (sorry, forgot his name) and he said he never watched the show.
Okay, but what skills did she use? What did she actually do in season 6 where she uses this knowledge she supposedly soaked up earlier? Her writing a letter to LF? Or is there more?
HBO GO is only for USA watchers..
It doesnt matter if she watches the episodes or not. They do table reads, commentary ,they talk about their characters motivations before we even get the first spoiler.
She obtained and retained loyalty from Brienne and Theon.
She convinced Jon to fight for her – despite the fact that he probably just wanted to GTFO and go retire somewhere warm. Maybe go to see Sam at the Citadel. She correctly surmised that Jon could bring the Wildlings to their side, and that they would be stronger as a ruling coalition than trying to go it alone herself.
She told Littlefinger to fuck off. I think this was really important for her character and ultimately proved to be a correct decision. I believe this did throw off Littlefinger and she judged correctly that it wouldn’t turn him against her – it only kept him out of their inner circle. Which is pretty important politically in the north.
Her plan to get the Blackfish to help was smart and timely – and Jon wouldn’t have thought of it. Nor would he have had any chance to get the Blackfish to fight for him, since he’s not Cat’s son. Sending Brienne turned out to be exactly the right move, since Sansa was needed in the North for a variety of reasons. The fact that it failed is not her fault, only the Blackfish’s. For putting a pile of rocks ahead of his flesh and blood.
Sansa pushed for Jon to use their family name to get support. These attempts to woo Northern Lords failed except for Davos managing to convince Lady Mormont. I don’t think it was “stupid” to try though – and without Sansa, Jon wouldn’t have bothered – he was in too much of a funk.
In the end Sansa was forced to use the ace up her sleeve – Littlefinger. Who she still believed would come if she called and she was right in that. In their earlier confrontation, and in the letter, she hit all the right notes with him to keep him hooked on the possibility that she might actually marry him after what he did, and for him to feel he had to do something big to keep that possibility alive. I do think that LF is obsessed with Sansa to the extent that he makes moves that are not necessarily the best for him objectively. Sansa will continue to exploit this in a careful way.
QueenofThrones,
You don’t think he needs her to control the WHOLE North? Its just love?
QueenofThrones,
I agree with all your points except the last one. LF should never have been an ace in her sleeve that she had to hide from Jon. There is no good reason why she had to hide that info from him. We cannot dismiss it as just a trust issue with Jon, because her actions put his and his army’s lives at risk for her cause.
I think the fact that opinions are so divided on Sansa lately is largely down to the way the show has written her part in Season 6.
That may be her interpretation but as a viewer, she simply demonstrated to me that she’d learned very little and was still self centred and rather shallow, if what Sophie and D and D say about her being jealous of Jon is correct. I just can’t get my head around her having any “skills” and she didn’t actually do anything from where I’m sitting, apart from complain she wasn’t being heard and yet refuse to contribute by telling Jon and Co she had written to LF.
How does that make any sense?
I don’t blame Sophie, it’s simply the case that the story is being forced into certain corners to suit the show runners and unfortunately it’s contradictory and doesn’t add up. What they are saying post season is not what was portrayed on screen and has only ended with Sansa fans looking to try and find ways of explaining what actually doesn’t make a lot of sense. If you have to rewatch scenes with an eagle eye, trying to find evidence that supports interviews by the cast and show runners afterwards, it has to tell you that they didn’t do a very good job.
She can come watch with me any time 😀
QueenofThrones,
Regarding Blackfish, it was not really Sansa’s plan, it was LF who suggested it to her (as a way to get an army that would be loyal to her and not her half brother) .
Oh wow, I didn’t know people were body shaming her. This is literally the first time I’m reading about this. She’s a very beautiful girl, crazy to think she’s not confidence in her appearance.
BTW I would love for her to be with Tyrion, he would totally treat her right and it would finally unite the Starks and the Lannisters. Jon marries Dany… boom all the problems are solved…. until Bran walks through the wall. hahahahahah 🙂
FUCK YEAH! I have been waiting for a thread where we could finally talk about Sansa.
Please, please, let’s discuss her agency too?
Clob,
For real I don’t think both Sansa and Little finger will make it to season 8. One of them is going to kill the other. LF has always had the upper hand, Sansa’s gotta start scheming now if she’s going to beat him. If he had to choose between being the ruler or Sansa…. I don’t think he’s going to choose creepy “wanted to bang your mother but I’ll settle for her daughter” love.
The North Remembers,
Unfortunately Sansa made it clear to Margeary in season 2 that the fact that Tyrion is a dwarf makes him unattractive to her and to Shae in season 3? that LF is much too old. If she hooks up with either of them, it would just contradict her personality to me. Sansa wants a handsome young knight. That’s been obvious from day one.
It also impeded her from getting the Vale army, or from using him as a hostage. And it made her success in the Battle for Winterfell completely dependent on LF.
No, her plan for the Blackfish made no sense whatsoever. Brynden was fighting in the Riverlands against the Freys. There’s no way his army can bypass the Frey control in the north. And in order to send the message, she sends the only warrior that’s 100% loyal to her (because apparently women on armor are more difficult to intercept than ravens).
The fact that Brienne gets to give Brynden the message is 100% thanks to Jaime being in charge of the siege, a fact that neither Sansa nor Brienne knew at the time.
Sansa wasted her best soldier on a mission she had no way of accomplishing.
Sorry for the rant, but that episode really bothered me.
The North Remembers,
ive read it before. its sad…
The internet can be so mean, but people hide behind their screens and say what they would be too coward to say in reality
House Stackhouse,
Of course it’s not “just love”. Or even love at all except in a twisted way. But I think Littlefinger was being truthful when he confessed to Sansa under the Heart Tree – that no matter what other plots or goals, or short term ideas he has in his mind. that picture of him on the IT and Sansa beside him keeps intruding. And every move he makes is in pursuit of that goal.
So while her claims’ certainly essential as well, he also wants her to choose him. To marry him and rule with him.
ghost of winterfell,
Absolutely. She was unwilling to trust Jon completely because of her own personal trust issues. She’s not perfect. That doens’t mean she had no good ideas or “did nothing” all season which was what I was responding to.
HotPinkLipstick,
LOLOL
WHY CANT WE HAVE A THREAD ABOUT JON
Does anyone else really, really want to watch the original pilot?? I hope it’s released as a special feature, perhaps with the final Blu-Ray/DVD or an anniversary addition. The more the cast references it, the more the curiosity mounts!
HotPinkLipstick,
Lol! Sophie is the only one who has been giving interviews, so it’s inevitable.
Dee Stark,
Sansa threads, by default are also Jon threads now 🙂 .
KIT. DO MORE INTERVIEWS PLEASE.
Why is the discussion of direct quotes from producers and actors considered trolling?
Posts like this are why it’s so difficult to have a civil conversation about the character.
Here we go……..
This ride will never end.
Halfman,
true, but that doesn’t leave her anyone. I HIGHLY doubt that her and Jon would get together. There is obvious conflict between them next season, Jon would never allow it, and it would serve no purpose. Jon’s already King of the North, he doesn’t need the Stark name to solidify his claim to the north like Ramsey did.
Lol… maybe Gendry rowed all the way to White Harbor and he will be the one to end up with her hahhahaha A Stark and a Baratheon 🙂
She judged Littlefinger Correctly. She judged Jon incorrectly. Her actions WRT LIttlefinger did not impede her from getting the Vale army. Also LF is a terrible hostage. Who on earth would risk their life for him? No one is the answer. Plus as a prisoner or an ally you and Sansa both know he’s going to start worming his way in there and scheming. Sansa didn’t want that to happen. Keeping him at a comfortable distance was the correct move.
What? Sansa acted 100% correctly given the information she had. She had just been informed (and correctly) that the Blackfish had taken Riverrun from the Freys. Meaning he was free to do whatever the hell he wanted at the time. There was no news of a Frey or Lannister besieging Riverrun. That only happened after she sent Brienne. Or are we now complaining about characters being “stupid” because they aren’t precient? OK I guess everyone is stupid except for Bran. Yes the situation was moving quickly but it was a good plan with the information she had.
By the way, it’s pretty ridiculous of you to say Sansa is stupid for not being able to tell the future WRT troop movements in the south, but then at the same time turn around and say she’s just lucky because Brienne was actually able to turn around the situation. Just like the situation turned out to be more complicated than the BF just coming north, Sending Brienne turned out to work because she was able to harness the quickly changing situation to their advantage. No one but her could have salvaged that situation. Now, Sansa couldn’t have forseen that but she trusted Brienne’s loyalty, ingenuity, and determination and was right in that.
Meanwhile Sansa was herself needed in the North. To ensure Littlefinger would come if needed. To try to get Northern Support (as Ned’s only legitimate child).
I’m just curious how any of this will be consistent with or eventually tie in with Sansa’s arc in the books. I really don’t care for most of her chapters in the books. I’ve read her sample chapter from TWoW too (still going by Alayne) and my word is it dull imo, not to mention going so far in another direction from the show:
Maybe she’ll end up in a similar ‘place’ between the two stories but it’s not looking like her desires line up at the moment. What they’ve written for her in the show is probably better even for those that don’t care for the character as much.
Clob,
This is exactly how I feel.
She will go North with the Vale army in the books too. And her relationship with Harry might not be all flowers and puppies, I think he’ll rape her (Yes Sean C, I know your opinion on this, don’t bother, we won’t know who’s right for a long time anyway), not as cruelly as Ramsey, but he won’t be prince charming either.
QueenofThrones,
Well said. I agree entirely.
QueenofThrones,
Besides what others have mentioned… Davos didn’t convince Lady Mormont to join them on the strength of Sansa’s name, but on the basis of the WW coming (and Jon and Jeor being able to see the bigger picture). Her Stark name didn’t accomplish much ( Lord Glover even shut her down after she tried pulling rank on him based on her name). Not to mention, she ridiculed Davos from getting “62 soldiers from a 10 year old”, which is 62 more than she managed to get during the Northern Tour.
Incredible to me how literal some people take these interviews and panels. On the Comic Con panel, Sophie clearly suggested that she also didn’t understand why Sansa didn’t tell Jon earlier about the Vale’s army (“… but it made good television”, eyeing D&D when she said that), and yet some will still nail her to the cross for that. Within the constraints of Westerosi society and the tv format, Sansa has definitely turned into a strong female character. The first proof of that was her false witness statement in front of the Vale nobility (imo still one of the best-acted scenes of the entire show), and now that she’s overcome the horrors of season five, there’s nothing (but a sexist westerosi society) holding her back to become a major player in the game of thrones. She definitely has the King’s Landing experience (by association with LF, Tyrion, even Cersei) that Jon lacks.
I agree, as long as she doesn’t drink my entire stock of vodka 😉
Have any other actors given interviews? This is getting annoying.
Btw, Kit and Carice’s film is screening at the Venice Film Festival. 🙂
QueenofThrones,
She took unnecessary risks and acted hastily without waiting for more information. Or did she think the Freys and the Lannisters were just going to let the BF do as he pleased? Even with no siege, the Freys controlled the northern pass to the North. They’re not letting the Blackfish pass without a fight.
And with LF captive, she could have commanded the Vale army to do whatever she wanted. Baelish is Sweetrobin’s tutor, and the boy does everything he commands. Sansa could have coordinated her army and the Vale army perfectly. By letting him free, she risked him not wanting to fight, or him not getting the letter in time; and then she would have been at the mercy of Ramsay.
I agree. If people grow up with sibling type feelings that doesn’t change just because a biological relationship is discovered later to be different. Pairing off Jon and Sansa just seems beyond far fetched to me so hopefully that isn’t what will happen.
Who’s left? Rickon Tarly is the only one who springs to mind.
I don’t see Sansa surviving til the end but that’s just my view of course. She is always the pawn and that doesn’t bode well.
ghost of winterfell,
yeah but its different… lol
Isabelle,
PLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE
I’m up for this! Although I have a feeling there are people who will complain. Let’s just go back to Sansa/Sophie… 🙂
Isabelle,
I’m so curious to see the first actresses they got for Dany and Cat.
Flayed Potatoes,
at TIFF as well, makes me want to go
Clob,
Well whatever they have done with her these last two years no matter how controversial it has been at least people were interested in her story and have made her a pretty prominent character.She basically has no story in the last two books.Nothing actually happens to her so people shouldn’t really complain lol.As far as how the stories will converge.I suspect she will marry Harry and LF will take the Vale army north and press a claim through Sansa.At the same time the North through Robb’s will will proclaim Jon king and there is where the conflict comes.In the end Sansa will kill LF and choose her family
Oh no, no, no. Gendry belongs to NO ONE except for you-know-who. 🙂
I sincerely hope people will actually take the time to listen to this podcast before chiming in with the same old criticisms that having been circulating since the Comic-Con panel last Friday. I thought the entire interview was excellent. Sophie speaks quite eloquently about her journey on the show, from her initial audition to Sansa’s triumphs during the most recent season, and offers some nice insights into the ways her life has changed as she’s grown up on Game of Thrones.
I particularly enjoyed hearing her effusive praise for Miguel Sapochnik and his direction of “Battle of the Bastards” (around 24:30) and the anecdote about watching the episode for the first time alongside Kit Harington when they did the DVD commentary and holding his hand (around 27:15). That, at least, should refute the asinine theories that there’s bitterness and tension between the two.
More than anything, this interview reaffirms my belief that for all their pageantry and popularity, Comic-Con panels are among the worst way to collect insightful commentary from cast members of any film or TV show. When you’re playing to a large crowd in such a restrictive format, slight questions that generate pithy responses are always going to generate the greatest response, and anything statement that is deemed even slightly controversial is never going to have an opportunity to be placed into proper context. Judging actors by what they say there is a fool’s errand.
I’ve been quite impressed with most of Sophie’s interviews in recent years, and I don’t believe that’s talked-to-death panel is best representation of who she is or what she thinks about her character and those around her. If she’s going to be judged by what she said there as opposed to longer, more in-depth conversations like this one, I think that’s a damn shame. She’s far more thoughtful the fandom gives her credit for.
GeekFurious,
Wow. Really lived up to the second part of your moniker there.
Jenny,
You are going to anger some hardcore fans with this…..thank god they are very few though…
But I completely agree.
Jared,
Come on Jared! Everyone knows you just read the title…..
Mihnea,
You caught me! I’ve had that screed saved up in my draft folder for days, just waiting for the right article to post it under. I hope I guessed the timestamps correctly, or this whole game will be over real quick! 😉
Yes, definitely! Tamzin as Dany and Kit being stared down by Jennifer Ehle? Would love to see that.
You know, I wonder if that’s part of the reticence to release it–contract issues with actors who didn’t make it into the final show. Could they prevent it somehow? Would they be owed something further? Don’t get me wrong, I think the bulk of it is that D&D etc don’t want to show work they don’t like, but it begs many questions.
I’m with you! I also don’t blame Sophie fully for all these… whatever you call them. I’m pretty sure she was briefed by the writers on what they were trying to convey but unfortunately that didn’t translate on screen. As I said here before, they should have just focused Sansa’s claim on the fact that she’s the rightful heir to WF (well, until Bran is found). That would have been a more sensible reason for her anger/jealousy rather than the claim that “she has the knowledge, intellect, and experience to lead/rule” and “that Jon is not fit to lead/rule but Sansa is”. The one reason she should be the QitN is that she indeed has a legitimate claim to WF/the North. The other reasons they’re saying are not sound IMO.
Jon should only, ever be discussed in terms of his relationship with and in contrast to SANSA.
HotPinkLipstick,
fine
“hmph”
HotPinkLipstick,
You are cruel….
Clob,
This is what happens when the writers inartfully merge a bunch of plots and, as they frequently do, try to have their cake and eat it too. Because everybody involved with the show has been clear that this is meant to be Sansa’s big season where she shows how skilled a player she is now. Look at how the climax of 609 is filmed, most obviously, full of hero shots of her while triumphal music plays. The writers, other castmembers, etc., have all been saying the same things. But the writers never bothered to come up with a plot that actually shows these things (anymore than Season 6 showed why Jon would be named king). The writing is structured as if getting the Vale army is Sansa’s big achievement, even though she didn’t do anything remotely impressive to do that, and it leads to the incredibly contrived withholding of information because the writers wanted the battle to start beforehand and that was the only way they could imagine for that happening (which, there were a bunch of ways that could have been written to achieve a similar result that didn’t make the characters look stupid).
But she was shown all season looking steely and glowering at people, which visually conveys the idea that she’s a Player now, and for most of the audience, that’s evidently enough. You saw that in Season 5, as well, where Sansa acted like a complete moron for the first half of the season and was doing nothing whatsoever, but up until the rape scene the casual audience, reviews, etc. were all about how Darth Sansa was playing the game, because she was styled to look cool.
Isabelle,
I’d be happy to see even some clips. 🙂 But yeah, maybe they are also prevented by the contracts with the actors.
Tar Kidho,
Yes it made good television because when you pick the bones out of it, it made no sense.
It’s interesting that its perceived that she is now a strong female character. As a female myself, it doesn’t tell me that at all, just that she’s a survivor. Yara, Dany, Cersei, Ayra, Margeary ……I see them all as strong but Sansa no.
Sean C.,
I agree.
No offense to anyone but this endless Jon/Sansa/LF debate is becoming really tiring and is one of the reasons why I stayed away from the site in these past few weeks. I really don’t have the energy for another argument war.
Sansa has become my favorite character in season 6 and I prefer her reunion with Jon a hundred times over her stagnant book storyline. In my opinion, separating her from LF and moving her storyline north was one of the best decisions and best changes from the books.
Again, no offense to anyone.
you m’am deserve a cookie for this…
Jared,
Yup! The podcast is really good. Again, thanks to WotW for posting this! 🙂 I never doubted Sophie and Kit are on good terms. I think they do treat each other like siblings.
QueenofThrones,
Aside from a few details, I agree enthusiastically ^^
The Starks have been our heroes since page/frame 1. We like them, we empathise with them, we want them to do well. Regardless of their (enormous, at times) wrongs and of their opponents’ (manifest, at times) rights. Instinctively, we support those who help them and despise those who do not.
Sansa initally was the Stark who did not want to be Stark. In her behaviour, I do not think she ever was less of a Stark (no matter what the definition of “Stark” one might have) than any other member of her family however she did not wish to identify as one. This “betrayal” was how she was introduced to us and it defines her story arc : a long process of reconciliation between her personas, the one she was born with and those she wants to/has learnt to embody. Re-investing and re-inventing her Stark identity, in her own way. The process started this season and it has potential, in my highly subjective opinion.
Nevertheless, her original sin casts a very long shadow to many viewers and to many readers. It has to be taken into account, especially now that she is paired with the character who has, conversely, always been presented as the “Starkest of the Starks” and is one of the main protagonists of the all story (and a fan-favourite) : Jon. 🙂
And yet he, as well as all the other Northern lords, groveled back to the Starks after the battle was won and they were shamed by Lyanna Mormont…
Either Sansa was fundamentally wrong to expect them to fight for her family in which case they should not be swayed by Baby Bear’s guilt-trip or they believe they made a mistake by not answering the Starks’ call in which case Sansa was right all along.
A rather classic case of the writers trying to get it both ways, here 🙂
As for Sansa’s mistrust of Davos, we know her to be completely in the wrong about that. Nevertheless, if all she knows of Seaworth is that he served under Stannis and all she knows of Stannis is that he lost the Battle of Blackwater and the war against the Boltons, she has pretty good reasons to doubt Davos’s abilities.
I would welcome a Jon thead ! There is much to discuss; it would be fantastic ! 😉
Flayed Potatoes,
Wonderful news ! ^^
Lord Parramandas,
This. I do have lots of work, but the idea of getting in a Sansa ”debate” doesn’t really motivate me to get here even if I had the time. ”here” being the comments, I do read every article that’s posted here.
I don’t care about her at all in the books.
She is now in my top 5 characters in the show, so they must be doing something right…
Mihnea,
She really doesn’t though lol.All that happens is that they travel from the Eyrie to the Gates and the moon and LF tells her she’ll marry Harry that’s it.She has like three chapters
Sam,
I don’t take part in these Sansa ”debates” but I do have to say, I agree with this.
Sophie and Kit are on very good terms and it’s clear to see, Kit probaly laughs at the comments that make some people go mad.
Jenny,
I know and I agree with you.
Sam,
What would have been believable would be that Sansa sees LF as the elephant in the room, that no one else has noticed. Then I would have been engaged and trusted what I saw on screen. Then I would have seen that she’s learned how to play the game and is doing so and is the strong woman to emerge from what she’s experienced. I will live in hope that that is the case and the interviews afterwards are simply to muddy the water….
Hmm, I don’t know about that. Sansa and Sophie are both too polarizing. I don’t think fans would like her being there at all. Sophie might want to stay away.
Glancing through the same Sansa comments. . .Oh wait, I just realized. . .I don’t care.
Halfman,
This may have been a bit of a “Meereenese Knot” for the showrunners. As I’ve seen others suggest, Sansa will probably show up with the Knights of the Vale to save Jon in the books too, but that will be the first time Sansa and Jon have seen each other since book 1. Forcing Sansa to take Jeyne Poole’s place wrote them into a corner they had a hard time getting out of smoothly.
ACME,
How about a thread re Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, Bran? They’re interesting characters, too. I also haven’t seen a Dany thread for a while. 🙂
Sean C.,
Ha ! That is quite true ! ^^
The whole build-up to the BotB had tremendous moments but was confusing as hell, in retrospect. I kept on expecting all season for certain key elements to be explained (why Sansa did not tell Jon about the Vale, why Jon never asked his sister what she knew about Ramsay that could help, etc.). All in vain.
Part of me still hopes they will be revisited next season but, in the meantime, we are left filling in the blanks with speculations…
Considering this season’s continued theme of “mythbusting”, of the pointlessness of hero-worship, of the flagrant differences between the stories people tell (including themselves) and the reality, there may be room next year for some interesting retroactive explanations of past actions.
Absolutely ! Fascinating topics as well ! ^^
Sean C.,
Politics in this show was always simple compared to HoC and similar shows. So, yeah, becoming the player by the show’s standards means just that. I don’t know any character in the show that plays the game like Frank Underwood. Politics was never really focus of this show. Except lord Arryn’s murder by LF I do not remember that anything was truly impressing.
This is much more family drama than politics story.
It is funny that you need explanation for that after 6 seasons.
Halfman,
And survivor is not strong?
Funny, “Furious” is not the word that came into my mind when I read his drivel.
Pfft. All characters should only, ever be discussed in terms of their relationship with and in contrast to SANSA…even if there never has and never will be any interaction between them.
Get with the program!!! 😉
PREACH! It is, after all “A Sansa of Ice and Fire.”
Halfman,
Oooohhh I totally forgot about Dickon (I think thats his name lolol) also someone else mentioned Robyn! He is technically lord of the vale. What if she DOES go to the vale with little finger…who knows maybe Jon will convince her to stay far away from the wall because of the WW. Maybe she marries Robyn and then kills him the way Littlefinger did his mother. Lol That would be something I don’t see coming!
Yes, I think book sansa will survive but show sansa might not. They’ve already killed off so many cast members this past season….more will eventually have to go. It is game of thrones after all 🙂
Sam,
OMG That would be my dream, you don’t even understand! Ever since the Season 1 finale! If the two of them found each other and ran around like vigilantes I would be happy with whatever else happened in game of thrones! I’ve shipped this ever since someone put their pictures next to Robert Barathon’s quote to Ned Stark.
“I have a son, you have a daughter…we’ll join our houses” <3<3<3<3
I think that some fans expect too much from Sansa’s political maneuvering. The show never really made political games that complicated. Is there really anything that impressing in this show when we speak about politics?
I’m not sure.
I think that Sansa’s biggest political achievement will be LF’s death. And that will also be more part of character than political drama.
Sean C.,
Good comment. You’re right that King in the North didn’t have enough development either, even if the scene itself was well done. We’re left basically inferring that the Northmen were very impressed by his Leeroy Jenkins charge. Makes me wish they had excised the whole “Terminator” sequence with Arya from episode 8 and replaced that with a couple extra Northern scenes. Arya could have easily had the same amount of screentime as Sam this year, only reason she got more is because she’s a “fan favorite.”
Not to mention Tyrion having TWO drinking scenes with Missandei and Grey Worm when one would’ve been more than enough.
A Man Grown,
Very possibly. At the end of the day GRRM is the storyteller. He’s written something impressive. Trying to orchestrate something to short cut the end game in an adaptation is a big ask. The show runners do a fab job and I love the tv show but when you examine it in detail, it’s wanting. But hey, most viewers don’t.
“Fire and Sansa.”
“Ours is the Sansa.”
“Unbowed, Unbent, UnSansa.”
“Sansa is Coming (hush, you pervs).”
“Growing Sansa.”
“What is dead may never Sansa.”
Basically, GoT is, or should be, “Being John Malkovich,” except with Sansa… “Being Sansa Stark.” 🙂
ACME,
Yup, people have discussed to death the brewing sibling rivalry up north. How about the one down south? I’m actually looking forward to Cersei/Jaime confrontation (?). It would be interesting as well to finally see Tyrion come face to face with the new occupant of the IT, his beloved sister. 🙂
mau,
The best political maneuver off the top of my head was Tyrion’s “one, two, three” trick with Varys, LF, and Pycelle to find out which of them was informing on him to Cersei. In the books there is of course WYMAN MANDERLY but his role was greatly diminished on the show.
Halfman,
Sansa is a main character in both ASOIAF and GoT and the producers have stated several times, that they are going towards the SAME ending, only on different path. I think main character surviving in one media, but dying in the other is a huge difference. I’m sure there is a reason why the producers gave Sansa her own storyline in season 5 and even called her “the character we care about the most”. If she remains a pawn through entire story, her character would be totally and utterly pointless.
BTW. I don’t think TV Sansa is a pawn anymore, but I can’t say the same for book Sansa.
mau,
No not always. Some people are life’s victims, some are survivors. Strength to survive doesn’t mean that you are switched on when it comes to seeing the bigger picture and not just serving your own needs.
The North Remembers,
I’d be content with the two of them happily rowing the boat to the end of eternity. 🙂
Yes, King Robert’s words were a foreshadowing of this union.
Sam,
yess!!!!!!!!!! Jaime looked kind of pissed but I feel like Cersei didn’t care…. does that mean if something happens to Jaime she still won’t care?
I’m sorry to all of the Cersei fans but I CAN NOT WAIT until she meets Dany….more than that, I can’t wait until she sees Tyrion is by her side!!!!! YESSSS! The north Remembers 🙂
A Man Grown,
I don’t want to get into these debates too much.
But I was never impressed by Manderly’s ”scheme” it is a simple double crossing, that is it.
The North Remembers,
In that case would be more apt to say “The East and West also remember, you know. The North doesn’t have a complete monopoly on memory.”
ACME,
They didn’t have the resources to fight a losing battle with an outnumbered army of Wildlings. It would have been easier if she had not rejected the Vale in the first place. They grovelled back to the Starks, but still made Jon king over her.
You said it. The impending 4 way Cersei – Jaime – Tyrion – Dany collision is 90% of what I’m looking forward to next season. The North is firmly 2nd tier. 🙂
Mihnea,
At least he’s better than Doran Martell.
A Man Grown,
In the books?
Because I also think Doran’s ”master” plan is way to overated.
A Man Grown,
Fair enough! Everyone remembers, Cersei run!!!!! I honestly don’t know how she’ll survive the next season. No one is really on her side…. except if Euron joins her or something?
Mihnea,
That’s what I’m talking about. The Martells are complete screw-ups in both the books and the show. But at least their storyline for the most part makes sense in the books.
Lord Parramandas,
I think you meant to say dying in one medium but surviving in the other.
I take your point and I don’t entirely disagree. What I’m saying is that how she is portrayed on screen is at real odds with how they are saying she is apparently behaving. I’ve yet to see anything on screen which tells me she isn’t just a pawn. Even killing Ramsay I found a bit of a cop out. Anyone can open a latch on a kennel door. Not exactly swinging the sword. So no, it doesn’t make her strong, or bad ass or whatever else I’m being told she is supposed to be.
Hey, it just doesn’t work for me. I’m not convinced and it frustrates me as I want to be convinced. Bring on Season 7, I really want Sansa to have me cheering her on. I was in Season 5 just not this season. Sorry.
QueenofThrones,
Yes, I think the focus in s7 will be Dany’s conquest/Cersei’s continued descent to madness, at least for the most part of the season. Then, it will shift again to the North when the threat of the Great War becomes real.
Waiting would have been much worse than acting quickly. Lannisters/Freys would have had time to dig in or attack. Best time to strike is as soon as she has intel that the Blackfish may be available to help her. Which is what she did.
It was not a “risky” move but a calculated one. Sansa was in a position of temporary relative safety – Brienne at her side during this period would have gained her nothing. Sending her could have gained her an army.
We don’t even know if Robyn is there since we didn’t see him after he told Baelish they should go help Sansa. Even if he is there, with LF gone that Royce could have managed him.
Littlefinger is a very risky piece to try to move. Anyone who thinks they can trust he will do what they want is a fool. Allowing communication with SR (which is essential in your plan) could be disastrous. He could instruct SR to turn on the Starks and take WF for themselves ala Cersei’s original plan (and he’d have motive to do this if Sansa went so far as to imprison him).
Sansa was correct that keeping LF at Arm’s length was a safer move. Hopefully she wouldn’t have to work with him at all. As it was she only did it as a last resort. And yeah she risked everyone’s lives because she didn’t trust Jon to act correctly WRT Littlefinger.
Halfman,
The plan to retake WF was hers and hers alone. She had no idea that LF is on the way with Vale army in episode 4, she clearly did not expect to see him in episode 5. I think this action alone makes her not a pawn.
Olenna arranging Joffrey’s death without ever getting blamed for it showed a lot of savvy as well.
Very good interview with Sophie. She’s said some of the same things before but here she has the time, instead of being one amongst many others on a panel or red carpet, to go into more detail about her experiences. A pity she didn’t get an Emmy nom this year. But there’s two more years for that, I guess. 😀
And reading the comments here, I’m glad Sophie avoids looking up online feedback these days. Just like Emilia’s said as well recently, doing so early on had quite an effect on her confidence back in the early years of the show. Emilia said now that her only exposure to these kinds of reactions now is creepy Instagram comments. For Sophie now, I guess it’s those and the odd nasty tweet. But in both of their cases I’m happy for them that they don’t seek out this kind of feedback and can avoid reading some of the harshness that’s out there.
Between this and another recent interview she did on Facebook live, you can tell though that she and Kit really do have a sibling relationship in real life. Which is why some of the reaction in the SDCC thread here was so off-base. People joke about their siblings, often mercilessly but it comes from a good place. In the Facebook live interview from the other day she said their on-set dynamic was to “bully each other” and make fun of one another. But the truth of it is how happy she was to see Kit nominated this year and how happy she was for him while they watched 609 together recording the commentary and congratulated him again and again on how good his work in the episode was as they sat together. That’s the heart of it.
She seems like a very nice sensible young lady if she stays away from the vodka (like any young person). Best of luck to her and looking forward to seeing what’s next in store for Sansa.
Well in truth we don’t know whether she did know or not. Even Sophie doesn’t know what the hell it was all about lol. For good tv she said. It was all so the plot could have an army ride in to save the day. LF was the means to having the Vale come to the rescue. He persuaded Robin that he should send an army to help his cousin long before Sansa wrote the letter. It’s LF pulling the strings, not Sansa.
You got all but one of those right. It’s “What is Sansa May Never Die.”
The site is dark and full of Sansa…
You missed the part where I and others noted that she said that on the Comic Con panel, mildly drunk and probably as a joke. Before taking this all too seriously, you should listen to the podcast in this post, instead of dreaming up a giant Sansa-hates-Jon narrative in your head… (that goes for others as well – Sophie/Sansa do not hate Kit/Jon, relax!)
So you agree with Sophie then, even if you didn’t realize it… (look at the Comic Con panel!)
Considering that she was consecutively engaged to a sadist, forced to marry another Lannister, and physically + mentally tortured by Ramsey, I’d say that she has indeed shown admirable strength of character, both in the Vale and after escaping the Boltons. She has done what she can within the confines her plot line as a female in Westeros. Not everybody gets the chance to play with dragons or become No One… I hope the scene is set now for her to get more leeway in the next season(s) for applying her strength to influence the outcome of important events.
Greenjones,
Agree with all that you said. People should really try to read between the lines before jumping to vitriol-filled conclusions…
Halfman,
Sansa WANTED a handsome, young knight. She thought she saw that in Joffery and, well…. need I say more?
Right. Of course. Your version is much better…
“The site is dark and full of Sansa” is beyond perfect.
I did, however, forget… “High as Sansa.”
That would be really nice. In the meantime, there are a few of us who’ll just be silly as hell to cover the opposite end of the spectrum (and, of course, those who will make thoughtful comments. I’m sticking with the silly route, though, as it keeps my blood pressure down, and makes me chuckle.).
QueenofThrones,
I don’t see any way in which Blackfish could have gone to the North without facing the Freys. Sending Brienne on a long journey, without knowing how many men Bryden had, refusing to think that Brynden would reject her (he’s not a Northener, the Riverlands come first to him) and knowing that the Freys stand on his way seems too risky to me. She’s risking Brienne’s life for a very small (almost non-existent) chance of success.
Since Baelish was confident enough to go to Mole’s Town, his control of the Vale army seems quite good.
Sansa doesn’t have to trust him. She could have controlled the ravens and letters he sent to SR. LF is in the Wall, with no allies or men of his own.
A captive LF is better than a free one. If the Vale army doesn’t obey him, Sansa loses nothing. If he tries anything funny, she can have him killed whenever she wants. If LF obeys, she can beat Ramsay with no problem.
If she let’s LF free, he can miss her letter, or ignore her, or attack her when she has beaten the Boltons.
Baelish leaves Mole’s Town losing nothing, and Sansa leaves missing a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.
Halfman,
I know that you are confused, but LF is pulling strings on everyone. That makes almost everyone a pawn.
LF instructed Sansa to stay in WF and didn’t tell her his true plan (s05e04). In s06e04, he mentioned to Robin that Sansa is a prisoner in WF and he was clearly shocked to see her free. He expected her to be at WF, waiting to be reScued. Seeing her free was a real threat to his plans, especially when Jon was involved. So the plan to rally northern troops and retake WF was entirely Sansa’s. Why would that action make her a pawn? If anyone was a pawn in that situation, it was definitely Jon. She basically forced him to help her (and without LF’s involvement).
If Sansa supposedly knew about LF’s army, why did she reject him in the first place? Why was she so openly mad at him? Why did she wait till the last moment? Yes, at the end, she had to ask him for help but with all previous actions, she actually tried to be a player and independent person, free from LF’s grasp.
I think your comment about her being a pawn for entire time is a bit harsh because she played her own game or at least tried to play her own game. Judging by your explanation, Jon was also a pawn through season 6 because almost none of the decisions were his and it was Sansa who dragged him into the game.
I know that you will probably mention interviews and while I think interviews shouldn’t be dismissed, I don’t think they can be completely trusted. There were many interviews about Trystane being a hostage in KL and Cersei trying to exact revenge on him and we all know how it ended.
A Man Grown,
That scene was good.
But my point is that is a bit hypocritical to have such high standards for Sansa when characters that are considered big players in this show haven’t done anything that impressive.
In the eyes of the fans Margaery was a player in the game, but except few manipulations there isn’t anything that she really accomplished in 5 seasons. And Olenna. She was part of the LF’s plan, but except Joffrey’s death, she didn’t do anything big in 4 seasons.
Roose also. Varys? LF and Tywin had a few good schemes.
The point is that a political games in this show compared to good political dramas are simple and not that smart and complicated. Because this show is not a political drama.
So yeah, Sansa offering LF’s a reward and rejecting him in E10 was a big player move by the standards of this show. And she is still just a beginner. Her biggest move will be LF’s death and that’s it.
Lol, it made me chuckle as well, so keep up the outrageous work 🙂
(I usually don’t get involved in the X vs. Y wars – meaning I stay out of the comments sections almost entirely – but for some reason I had naively imagined that there could be no controversy after listening to the podcast. Obviously I made the beginner’s error of thinking that people would only discuss the podcast and nothing else, whereas most didn’t even listen to it I guess)
Lord Parramandas,
In S6 Sansa tried not to be LF’s pawn and she tried to be independent from him. That wasn’t possible. Yet.
So I completely disagree that there is no character development for her. Sansa in S5 was different.
Tar Kidho,
Sweetie, some don’t even bother to read the whole post.
mau,
Yes. I totally agree with this and also with your statement that female manipulators are often overrated in GoT
I am still more invested in the north, the white walkers are the thread, the THRone is not so important.
Mihnea,
His scheme will fail because we know from the show that Jon will become KitN and not Rickon.
mau,
In the books Olenna killed Joffrey and that was her mic drop pretty much. They kept her around in the show to give Diana Rigg more scenes to play.
You’re not wrong, they’re aren’t too many strategic geniuses running around on the show. Tywin may have been the best but he was undone by a personal life failing, i.e. his contempt for Tyrion.
Newbietothegame,
Sorry, didn’t read your entire post – couldn’t get past you calling me “sweetie”…
Lord Parramandas,
And again, hypocrisy is what really bothers me with this fandom.
Maybe hypocrisy is too harsh, but english is not my first language, so I don’t have a better word. lol
But what bothers me is that I remember that after S5 there were fans who were already criticizing the show because they expected that Sansa will become a big political player in the game out of nowhere in S6 and they complained that that development wouldn’t feel organic to the story.
And then in S6 Sansa didn’t do anything that impressive, but she has done more that ever before, and now they are complaining that she is not a big political player in the game.
I mean, whatever.
mau,
Will be interesting to find out what Davos gets up to in book 6. Who knows whether he’ll actually end up as Jon’s de facto Hand like he did in the show.
Yes. I think Rickon in the books is only a red herring. Of course, some hardcore book fans refuse to believe it, blame the show for wasting his character and still expect Rickon to be the core element of the supposed Grand Northern Conspiracy and that he will be KitN at the end of ASOIAF. I recently had a comment war with someone on youtube about that, a person who hated Battle of the Bastards just because it didn’t happen in the books and who still believes Stannis will be the one to defeat the Boltons.
Lord Parramandas,
That brings back how much of a punch in the gut the end of season 5 was for me re: Stannis. He was my favorite character in the books before the show was even announced. His book 6 preview chapter made it seem like he was on top of things in preparing for the battle, and gave him a bunch of cool lines.
mau,
I know.
I also found it a bit ”stupid”, don’t jump on me it’s late and I couldn’t think of a better word.
So he said he’ll switch sides when Davos will bring him Rickon, he makes that clear. But Davos doesn’t really have the time for it…..The battle starts to soon, so what now?
He fights for the Boltons and kills Stannis and turn on them only when/if he gets Rickon? If not he stays loyal to the Boltons?
Let’s say he switches sides without Rickon, this of course makes half of his plan meaningless. So let’s say Stannis would win and still doesn’t get Rickon, what now? He betrays Stannis, he stays loyal?
The plan IS simple, a ordinary double-crossing, but the part that never made sense to me was Rickon, how the hell is Davos even supposed to get him to WF?
And how does this really matter in his decision to switch sides?
Because to it looks like Rickon is irrelevent, and he will do it/or won’t do it on entirely different reasons.
To me it looks like this part was ”introduced” only to give Davos a ”quest”
Lord Parramandas,
Grand Northern Conspiracy is just a fan theory. We know that Jon will become KitN, so tha conspiracy does not really exist.
Or even if there is a big conspiracy to put Rickon on the throne it will fail.
GNC is like Cleganebowl. Popular theory that some people consider a canon for no reason at all.
A Man Grown,
That’s a warning signal! 🙂
Mihnea,
And why would he send Davos at all? There is no reason for Manderly to trust him.
Yes, there are many holes in that plan. And there is no excuse for that. Martin spent 6 years on that book.
If that was show original plot I can only imagine how book purist would react.
Mihnea,
I’m sure you’re right. GRRM purposefully made Stannis as awesome as possible in that chapter, cackling with laughter at the thought of killing him a few chapters later after getting everyone’s hopes up.
And I guess you guys are right about Manderly. My fond memories of him are mainly based on his cool lines and Frey pie. But the Rickon element doesn’t make much sense if you analyze it closely. The way Manderly found out about Rickon kinda came out of left field as well. Theon simply telling Ramsay on the show made more sense and was probably the better choice.
Mihnea,
Not to mention that lord Wyman almost had his throat cut by the Freys and is almost clear to the Boltons that he may not be an ally.
mau,
I’m pretty much aware that the Conspiracy is just a theory. It always seemed too much like a fairytale to me. The TV series approach seemed more realistic to me.
mau,
But the show itself is presenting her as if she is a big political player, and what we’re shown doesn’t match up with that. The only thing she did this season was accept Littlefinger’s offer of help, which is something Season 1 Sansa could have done just as easily. She was a complete failure as a diplomat and strategist (though people attached to the show evidently think otherwise), and withheld vital information for no reason, which the show evidently didn’t understand the gravity of, given how easily it was brushed off afterward.
mau,
I’ll wait and see honestly, perhaps he will send him with a crew.
But this of course renders sending Davos there specifically pointless……
The only argument in this case will be the already familiar, we need a POV there argument. Same happened with Aeron alreafy in WOW, were he magically apeared with Euron because we needed a POV in there and Euron would be to reviling.
Sean C.,
I’m not sure that they said that she is a big political player, but she is a player, by the show’s standards. She promised reward to LF in E7 and then she just ignored that in E10. So she used his affection for her, but she didn’t give him anything.
As a diplomat she didn’t do much, because she wasn’t a diplomat ever before. It wouldn’t feel organic for the story to make her great diplomat out of nowhere. Davos had more experience in that than Sansa and Jon and that was shown.
She will be better in S7, I think.
Lord Parramandas,
These ”conspiracies” were born from the years and years of waiting….
Trust me, this happened with AFFC to. Almost all theories that people were speculating after ASOS were either proven false or they were never mentioned.
The only one that was made even more obvious and hints were thrown was R+L=J.
Mihnea,
But why waste so much space and time on Rickon if Jon is going to become KitN?
GRRM desperately needs an editor.
Mihnea,
To me the plan was introduced: to get Davos away from Stannis and possibly find some use for him later (Stannis will 100% die in battle against the Boltons, as we’ve both agreed before lol), to wrap up the Rickon plotline (I doubt Rickon will survive being on an island of cannibals, even if Osha and Shaggydog are with him).
I’m actually curious if book Davos will end up in Jon’s council/camp in the books too and how that will happen.
I think Manderly just wants Rickon back, so he can rule through him, but that will obviously fail.
Maggie,
No, I have HBO Go with GoT here in the UK.
A Man Grown,
When we speak about that Manderly plot book fans love it so much and they are never questioning logic of that scheme.
If they used scrutiny they use for the show’s original plots, everything there would fall apart.
And GRRM had 6 years for that book. D&D have only 6 months for every season.
mau,
Even if he’s barely in the books, Rickon is still a Stark and George needs to somehow wrap up that plotline so Jon can be KITN without any plot holes or issues. Imo he wants to make the whole thing feel organic, but not too convenient/obvious. I think his gardener approach is at work here, and it seems to somewhat be working since so many people I’ve seen are convinced anyone but Jon is going to be KITN… and that Rickon is going to ride a unicorn into battle or whatever lol.
Flayed Potatoes,
As I’ve said, I also agree on the ”plot” reasons and structure.
It is Manderly’s decision as a character that make little sense to me.
Doesn’t really matter anyway, as Mau said the ”plan” is irrelevent as Jon will end up as king anyway.
I think Rickon will die, but will get more chapters, 2 is my guess, if Martin has mercy, 4-5 if not, but in the end I believe it will be a ”Quentyn” at least will have Dvos as a POV which should be more interesting then Quentyn (god, I have nothing with this character, even like him a bit, but he did not deserve to be a POV)
I do think Davos will get to Jon, it is either this or death.
My problem with the discussion is: that the horse died months ago and people are still flogging it. This isn’t a topic where either side can be swayed or there is any new ground to cover. Every post is a version of something that has already been said many times over.
There is new ground to cover in the series, comparing the show; using that to lead to book conclusions; whose stories are fully in Winds territory; what is lagging behind; how exciting it is to be in totally new territory; how wrong we’ve been on things; how wrong we’ll be in the future; which characters are static; which are bridges; what’s going to happen next.
I’d really enjoy going back and pulling out old predictions and picking apart where we all went wrong and why we went that way. What that says about where the story is going and what we can expect in the future. How we can try to be better with our predictions.
But newp…Sansa.
Mihnea,
I assumed that “when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east” is literally the only reason Quentyn exists.
mau,
Same reason it takes Arianne 4 chapters to get to SE. When in AGOT it took 2 chapters for Cat to get to KL then the Vale.
Same reason Tyrion/Brienne wander for 8 chapters..
Same reason Quentyn/Aerys/Hotah are POV..
Martin is good at dialogue and I would say decent with prose, but with some major faults.
Right now he simply lost the ”plot”. He writes far to much meanigless world-building that is just lifeless.
In AGOT-ASOS he had a very good balance, now he seems to have lost it, for example
Jaime had in 3 chapters, which were very well written, as much character development as Tyrion has in 14 in ADWD.
A Man Grown,
I kinda agree, and frankly I don’t mind his character.
He just, in my opinion, didn’t deserve to be a POV.
Mihnea,
Idk Manderly’s decision makes sense to me if his reason is to put Rickon in Winterfell and rule through him (like how others rule for Tommen in KL). Imo It wouldn’t matter to him if Rickon arrives before or after the battle, as long as he has a legitimate Stark in his hands he can use to take Winterfell or challenge Robb’s will if….say Rickon were to be found after Jon is made KITN.
It reminds me of how, on the show, Bran is arriving after the same announcement. I’ve seen discussions where people wonder how Bran’s arrival will affect Jon’s status, especially since it didn’t seem like he was set to leave soon in the books.
The timelines are a bit weird (not just for the Manderly plot) and I wouldn’t be surprised if GRRM is struggling with them now.
Flayed Potatoes,
I know. He is just a red herring.
But the most frustrating thing is that so many assumptions are used as facts, when we speak about the North in ADWD in this fandom.
For example, there are people who are angry that LF played a big role in Ramsay’s downfall and not some Northern lords. They just assume that this betrayal by the Northern lords would happen in the books. But that is just theory used as fact.
I believe that Sansa and LF are set up to arrive during the battle just like in the show.
And when I say the battle, I mean the battle between Ramsay and Jon, not Stannis and the Boltons, because no, Stannis will not win in that battle and Jon didn’t “steal” his plot.
It is not possible for Jon to become KitN if Stannis wins.
mau,
Want to know the funny thing?
Some got angry at Ramsey killing Roose, because Roose is a master scheming vampire and all that…..
But the ”poisoned by his enemies” actually makes even more sense in the books, considering WF is full of people who hate the Boltons.
But it would matter because he said to Davos that his condition to back Stannis is to have Rickon in his hands.
So he can’t support Stannis without Rickon.
So now… in the books Sansa is tied with Catelyn as fifth in number of published or released pov chapters behind Tyrion, Jon, Arya and Daenerys in that order, and four ahead of Bran. So I guess that could be a qualifier for her being called a ‘main character’ and that most of the pov characters are main in varying degrees. Of course that doesn’t mean one can’t be killed in this story, but that usually serves as a catalyst for other events.
The thing is, Sansa has never felt like an important main character to me in the books. Ignoring that she had just three pov chapters in the fourth book and zero in the fifth, prior to that it felt like most of her chapters served as the reader’s ‘good side pov’ of the machinations occurring around her. That became a rather necessary thing in King’s Landing once Ned was gone. Tyrion was made to be liked on the show from the start but not so much in the first couple books. Sansa is just kind of there without participating.
I have to keep thinking about how George said his original outline for the ASoIaF had five main characters that would make it through; Tyrion, Jon, Arya, Daenerys and Bran. Of course that was early and things change but we do notice they’re the living with the most chapters to date, with inclusion of Sansa. The difference is that a lot has happened with the other five while she’s been rather stagnant personally, to include her sample chapter from the next book.
On the show I personally think what D&D are doing with her is going to end up being very different when we read the rest of George’s story. They started that by giving her the Jeyne arc because otherwise they would have had a main cast member doing boring stuff and some new actress being abused by Ramsay. Less dramatic. I don’t clearly remember the context of “the character we care about…,” but I believe it was in response to putting Sansa in Ramsay’s grasp. George may have given them an outline for unwritten material but it’s just that, not written. The last we’ve read about her she’s still thinking about boys and getting married. She won’t have the same motivations against Ramsay and scars of his abuse, and that alone would seem to change her path moving forward quite a bit. I also think D&D like Sophie and she’s one of the main cast members so they’re writing her into more to keep her involved whereas George doesn’t have to do that in his writing.
Mihnea,
And again where we see Roose is master scheming character? In the show or the books. He is smart, yes, and he betrayed Robb, but that wasn’t his plan.
So as I said earlier, if Roose and Olenna and the rest were considered a big players in this story, than Sansa is a player in S6.
mau,
It makes no sense for Jon to steal Stannis’ plot. Jon’s a main character with his own plot. Idk what people are smoking tbh. I’m sure LF and Sansa will bring the Vale army north in the books, and in this case it will make more sense for Jon to be unaware of it than on the show. Sansa won’t imo kill Ramsay though. I also think Sansa’s marriages in the books will be criticized and used as one of the reasons why Jon will be made KITN over her. I wonder if Harry the Heir will join them in Winterfell lol.
Anyone who listened the whole podcast…
Does Sophie says any nonsense about Jon again? lol
I’m really curious to listen to the interview but i’m afraid of getting pissed at Sophie again.
Clob,
GRRM said that the main reason why he created Sansa is to have some conflict in the Stark family, because they seemed so perfect.
mau,
True, but if Rickon is delivered to him late, Manderly still has a fresh army he can use to wipe out whoever is left from the Stannis vs Bolton fight (since he won’t join in the fight as you said).
Flayed Potatoes,
But he is….
Flayed Potatoes,
I agree. And then Sansa and Jon will have some sort of conflict over WF, and that conflict will end when Sansa betrays LF. She will choose her family.
Clob asked how Sansa’s show and book plot will converge and this is my theory.
Flayed Potatoes,
But he is part of that battle.
mau,
Yeah well he achieved his purpose at least regarding the fandom lol.She is a wildly divise character.As far as the story goes she only brought conflict in book 1 but I don’t think he has given up on that idea and as we are speculating he will use her again to bring conflict in the next book
mau,
Yeah. Playing sides and waiting for his pawn. I’m going to laugh my ass off when his plan flops and Jon is made KITN.
not a good men,
While I somewhat agree with rest of your post I don’t agree with this one ..
Dany is aware of her own shortcomings as well and she constantly questions and criticise her own actions… Even more than others do of her..
She knows she doesn’t have that much knowledge when it comes to history …and that’s why she keeps questioning barristan and jorah …where she excels is at her willing to learn and that too at a swift pace..
Even with quentyn she wanted to know more about dorne and daenerys that went there ..
She had openly admitted how all she ever did was bring back more misery and bloodbath in slavers bay and bpw she has been a khal than a queen that’s one of the reasons she stays in meereen..
She asks tyrion to advise her and help her rule and get the throne …which makes it clear she accepts where she is not strong and is not shy in enlisting those who can help her in those departments
Flayed Potatoes,
That is too much risk, for a big player. He doesn’t even know if the battle will be over before Davos returns. He doesn’t know how will Davos return in that weather.
mau,
I agree. It makes me wonder if Roose will actually get poisoned by his enemies in the book and if that will delay things.
Do you think he’ll stick with the Boltons? What do you think he’ll be up to once Stannis dies and Jon 2.0 comes back (and goes to WF with his Wildlings I’ll assume)?
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Hi honey long time no wave *waves so manically hands fall off* (been lurking but not moved to comment recently). I looked at the wiki for some other suitable mottos, we have:
None So Sansa (Follard)
Here We Sansa (Mormont)
Proud To Be Sansa (Stokeworth)
Ever Sansa (Flint) and
The Old, The True, The Sansa (Velaryon). As High As Sansa (Arryn) is my fave 😀 Oh and I guess Our Blades Are Sansa now she is the last official Bolton in a way?
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Lulus Mum,
We Sansa Together (Frey)
Iron From Sansa (Forrester)
Hear Me Sansa (Lannister)
The Sansa of Winter (Karstark)
As Strong as Sansa (Redfort)
No Sansa So Sweet (Caron)
To be fair to George RR Martin (and even more so to the show’s writers who have even less time to devise their plotlines), and while I agree with the overwhelming majority of everything you wrote (excellent posts all along, by the way 😉 ), pre-contemporary European politics in the real world was pretty much just one massive soap opera.
The powerful were only a handful and the whole basis for political alliances and tractations was interpersonal connections, usually in the form of marriage. The “players” who inspired Mr. Martin hardly ever put in place House of Cards-type schemes because the world they inhabited had neither the institutional frame to sustain such ventures nor the social complexity required to engineer plots like Frank Underwood’s. And they were pretty much all inbred… ^^
So the low-level and, in the long term, entirely ineffective “manipulation scheme” of a Margaery Tyrell or the brutally simple double-crossing plot of a Bolton are very much in keeping with the mechanics of the time period they were inspired by.
The medieval and modern obsession for “keeping it all in the family” led to a quite simplistic relational and political structure in the upper echelon of society. The real scheming used to take place “below”: in the emerging bourgeoisie and the professional guilds. The “family-less” class, so to speak.
Which is probably why the only two characters in ASOIAF who seem to have genuine long-term plotting abilities are Varys and Littlefinger who are virtually deprived of any familial connection.
Even though I have known it has been in the cards since the first book, every time I think about it, his future demise saddens me. I will miss this scheming mockingbird !
Perfect and a tiny wee bit holier-than-thou… ^^
So the Shaggydog was a shaggydog all along ?!? Well, I’d never…
No no no, it cannot be ! Rickon will ride in on a unicorn, Stannis will be King of Westeros, Varys is a merman and Ser Pounce is Azor Ahai. It all makes so much sense !
Tywin of the Hill,
I think you’ve got the winner there with We Sansa Together. It applies equally to anyone who has thought or commented about her, regardless of their opinion 😀
Clob,
Apart from the characters and a couple events, GRRM’s old outline has almost nothing to do with the current story. Honestly, do you believe that all those five characters will survive till the end? Where is the “bittersweet” in that?
And it wasn’t only Sansa who was sidelined in books 4 and 5. Bran also had only 3 chapters. And Arya had significantly less chapters than in previous books. Remember that GRRM originally intended to include 5 year gap between books 3 and 4, so these three characters would have grown up in the meantime.
Writing many POV chapters of a character who does absolutely nothing by their own and then killing them at the end without them achieving anything would be very bad writing in my opinion and a total waste of a character.
But yes, I agree that Sansa feels more like a main character in TV series than in the books and that’s one of my favorite differences from the books.
mau,
I think this makes sense. There’s good and bad on every side right? Most of us enjoy Tyrion even though he’s a Lannister….Sansa is the one Stark that half of the fandom wouldn’t mind losing.
The thing that I find SUPER annoying is that I was so happy about our Stark reunion (totally cried) and then suddenly Sansa’s attitude changed towards Jon. It’s like she forgot the relief she felt from finding her family again. She lost just Rickon and ONLY has Jon (at this time). I’ve lost a little faith in her, not because its Sansa vs. Jon, but because she’s trusting everyone BUT the only family she has left.
I’m really hoping that when Brienne gets back she sets her on the right path. She called her on her BS before. Brienne might not be the knight she was looking for but its the one she seriously needs 🙁
I’m not sure my watch group can handle Sophie yapping through the entire episode. ?
The North Remembers,
Currently, she doesn’t trust anyone except maybe Brienne. “Only a fool would trust LF”.
This is a world of grey characters. Yes, the reunion was touching and very real but there is anger inside her. Like Ramsay said, he will never be totally gone and a part of him probably “lives inside Sansa”. But still, there were some touching moments between Jon and Sansa on the walls of WF and she still smiled at Jon when he was declared King. That means that she is not “too far gone”.
my bad
Tyrion was a reader favourite from the beginning, and highly likeable. I’ve seen people make the argument that Sansa’s KL chapters are mostly just as a window, but that really doesn’t make much sense to me. Obviously GRRM uses her to show us stuff happening; that’s the case with all the POVs to varying degrees (other than Dany, I guess, since she is nowhere near anybody else in the story). If you look at what comprises the bulk of her chapters from ACOK onward, it is stuff that is concerned mainly with her own experiences, and which there’d be no reason for us to see at all if she wasn’t an important character. All the stuff about the Hound and Ser Dontos, for instance, has no bearing on anybody else in the story.
Aside from GeekFurious and 1 or 2 other babies, this comment section was more civilized than I thought considering the subject.
A step in the right direction.
Flayed Potatoes,
I don’t know. Maybe he will be killed with Rickon? Maybe he will go to Jon after Rickon’s death. I’m not sure. But Im sure that Jon won’t be his pawn, it wouldn’t make any sense for the story, so he is just another red herring. Maybe.
Oh ! Lannister family drama ! That is one dish I cannot wait to taste… How long before Jaime abandons his twin ? It is too late for him, I think, to pull another ‘kingslayer” trick; his sister has already done (part of) what he prevented the Mad King from achieving.
So which or whose valonqar will do the job ? 😉
However, before we get our “Lannister on Lannister” crime, Daenerys first has to make it to Westeros and I can’t imagine it is going to be smooth-sailing. As of now, she has too much on her side : best cavalry in the world, best infantry in the world, part of the best navy in the world and the best (and only) air force in the world. With nukes attached. If she were to land in Westeros as such, there would be no conflict at all : she would just steamroll her way to King’s Landing unchallenged.
Something has got to give : I think either the Dothrakis or the Unsullied might not make it through. Neither of these armies seems fit to fight in the North so they are, narratively speaking, disposable.
Her allies in Westeros may also be in a bit of a pickle.
House Tyrell has no future whatsoever so the lords of the Reach have very little incentive to abide by Lady Olenna’s words. Several houses of the region may be more interested in fighting among themselves to determine which one of them will take over the Tyrells than in helping out a woman from Essos they know nothing about. A few might even align with Cersei hoping for a big payoff.
And Tyrion has yet to find out the Sands murdered his niece, whom he loved very much…
And a murderer. And a bit of a rapist (at least in the books).
Let’s not sugarcoat it : Tyrion is a fantastic character and the best of his family. But he is a bit of a shady individual in his own right. Being a Lannister is the least of his faults 😉
While I agree Sansa’s trust issues are a big problem, the idea that “they’re family” should be the clincher in and by itself is a bit too simplistic. They love each other but it is hardly enough, isn’t it ?
Robb was her family too. He was her brother too. They loved each other too. Yet he prefered to let her rot in King’s Landing rather than lose the tactical advantage Jaime represented.
Maybe we could talk about something else if other actors like Kit, Emilia, Maisie, Peter, etc. do us the kindness of giving any interviews AT ALL lol
Instead, we got several interviews per week with only Sophie Turner 🙂
The North plot usually is the one I get most excited about, but I’m quite tired of hearing the same thing over and over. At least, she didn’t talk about the Jon vs Sansa thing on the last 2 interviews she gave after the whole comic-con thing. This is nice of her and PR team.
I’d love to hear Kit’s thoughts on how he thinks Jon will function as King next season, though. I’d also love to hear Lena, Peter and Emilia’s insights about the face-off their characters will certainly have in S7. But until they start talking, we’ll have to stick with Sophie Turner and how much of a great leader she thinks sansa can be. And people will obviously disagree and have different opinions since most actually are yet to see sansa as the new littlefinger of game of thrones like sophie and some of her fans does lol
ACME,
Yeah. Maybe I was too harsh to D&D and GRRM when I was speaking about the political aspect of this story.
But I think that GRRM’s political side of the story is much more complicated than in the show. For obvious reasons.
I think that D&D decided to concentrate more on characters than politics and history. And it makes sense for the adaptation. We spent 3 seasons in Meereen but we never learn anything about their history for example.
The plot is there to serve the characters and every information is there to serve that plot.
There is no world building in the show. Every information about the past serves some purpose in the plot.
So when I was speaking about the politics, I was speaking more about the show. Yes, Sansa didn’t do anything that complicated politicaly, but she is just a beginner, and even characters that this show presents as a big players didn’t do much that was that impressive.
There are so many administrative details that Cersei, Dany and Jon deals with in AFFC and ADWD that was cut from the show.
Politics in the show is much simpler, so I really don’t think that it would feel natural for Sansa to do much more what she has done at this stage of the story. Maybe to show her speech to lord Hornwood or something like that.
Only a fool would trust Littlefinger. She said so herself. She trusted Littlefinger on the Blackfish/Riverrun info like the fool she is. She sent a great knight away in lighting speed after Littlefinger had told her something. lol
And then Arya will slit her throat because she felt pretty connected to Gendry, and then comes her sister and takes him away from her…
I’d like to see the version of Game of Thrones sason 6 Sophie Turner has watched. It’s clearly not the version the rest of the world has seen. Everything she has said about Sansa since the finale is the opposite of what happened on screen.
Sansa’s arc in s6 could be bogged down to Sansa moaning and bitching her way through the North, acting high and mighty/selfishly and begging for help as she has always done. That’s her entire contribution. She begged for help that had been previously offered to her (and which she initially turned down due to her grudge). Help from an old creepy dude who only wants to fuck her, sees her as a stand-in for her mother and a means to an end (his goal being more power and prestige). She could have had him killed or arrested easily and secured the Vale’s support on her own through her alleged intellect and political skills but no, she had to rely on him to do that. Where’s the knowledge and experience of Sansa’s Sophie is talking about? She didn’t utilise them. She didn’t accomplish anything through wit and experience. Actually, she was being foolish at every corner. Davos put her in place even though he’s not a Northerner. Sansa stupidly misjudged the Northern Lords and their mindset after TWotFK (especially Karstarks. ‘They will remain loyal’ after Robb had beheaded their Lord right? lmao), trusted Littlefinger regarding Riverrun, sent a highly skilled knight on a blind mission with no confirmed intel, failed to use her supposed diplomatic/political knowledge to convince the Northern Lords to her cause, acted salty over Davos actually managing to do something beneficial to their campaign, didn’t offer any significant, non-vague advice, sat on crucial military information that could have given them the opportunity to avoid many deaths that happened, she didn’t even get to capture and kill Ramsay. Jon neutralised him and put him bloodied in iron in the kennel where his hungry dogs were. Sansa didn’t even know where he was locked up, so it was on Jon’s orders that they put him in there. Sansa just walked up, talked for a bit, observed and left. The hounds killed Ramsay but it was Jon who had it happen.
I understand not every actor can be Kit who sees and talks about his character’s virtues and flaws openly, but it’s one thing to advocate for your character it’s another to completely rewrite them (and put down other characters to prop up yours). Sophie’s POV on Sansa is her headcanon, it’s barely show canon, and it has nothing to do with book canon. What she says about Sansa is not the character in the show we’ve been watching for 6 seasons. Another curious thing is her insistence on making Sansa out to be as unStark-like as possible. Starks don’t do things for glory, credit, gold or power. But Sansa apparently does according to Sophie. It wasn’t about getting back her home for her and her family, it wasn’t about saving Rickon and liberating the North from Bolton regime and taking steps to prepare the North for the Long Night, it was about her revenge and thirst for validation/power. Now she’s bitter because she didn’t get credit for begging a dangerous evil man to save her. It’s laughable. Yes, Jon should praise her for her lies, manipulations and duplicity.
mau,
I wholeheartedly agree.
D&D do their best to squeeze books thicker than the Bible into 10 hour of television every year so world-building and administrative details are obviously going to end up on the cutting room floor. I think that, for the most part, they have done a pretty good job picking-and-chosing so far.
Considering that the political aspect of ASOIAF is hardly a contemporary labyrinth of complexity, in keeping with the real-world historical models George RR Martin was inspired by, its GOT rendition is as good as it is going to get within the constraints of a 10-hour yearly season of television. Not mindblowing but pretty neat all the same. We get the plots, we get the counterplots, we get the alliances, the dalliances, the treasons, the personal vendettas, etc. And we even get Littlefinger’s constructive destruction ! So while it is extremely streamlined, it still works, generally speaking. The basic structure is in place.
As for Sansa, I again agree with you. She is at the very least at a Margaery Tyrell level of “game playing” (which is ironic because Margaery, in her last season, inherited Sansa’s storyline from season 2 : forced to fake allegiance and submission to ensure her survival). It is no “Littlefinger Vale trial”, of course (that scene was quite awesome, in my opinion) but it is a start.
In case anyone is wondering….here are Kit and Peter’s Emmy submissions
http://www.goldderby.com/article/2016/emmy-awards-kit-harington-michael-kelly-episode-submissions-news-975318642/
http://www.goldderby.com/article/2016/emmy-awards-peter-dinklage-jon-voight-episode-submissions-news-975318642/
Edit: And Maisie’s and Emilia’s
http://www.goldderby.com/article/2016/emmy-awards-exclusive-maura-tierney-and-maisie-williams-episode-submissions/
http://www.goldderby.com/article/2016/emmy-awards-exclusive-emilia-clarke-and-constance-zimmer-episode-submissions/
Lena’s haven’t appeared yet.
I think that the problem with this whole Sansa situation is that D&D continually divert the character’s path from George’s outline while still aiming for the same endgame as his. They know George’s ending and they strive to make theirs very similar, but they also change some character’s midway journey, ignoring that this may mean the character will be significantly changed.
D&D changed Sansa’s journey – instead of her getting a political tutelage and manipulation classes from Littlefinger she got sold by him to become Ramsay’s wife. She didn’t learn anything new in Winterfell, didn’t really get any character progression. Once that phase was done, D&D pulled her back to what I assume will be her book storyline, which is to become deep-seated in northern politics and, judging by their comments, become a viable option for Queen in the North.
But the problem is that show Sansa isn’t much of a viable option for that, The audience is constantly told by the writers and the actors that she is a player, that she is intelligent and politically savvy, but we, the audience, haven’t really seen that since a long time (Ever since she lied for Littlefinger). Instead of going through a learning arc, the writers opted for making her simply suffer more abuse from Ramsay,
This isn’t simply an issue of Sophie Turner hyping up Sansa. It’s an issue of writers wanting to present a character in a very positive light, while ignoring the journey the character needed to undergo to be put under that light. They tell us that Sansa is politically savvy, but they don’t show us anything to support that claim.
Thank you! I wasn’t surprised about Kit/Emilia/Maisie’s choices but was not expecting that Tyrion would submit No One. I thought he’d go with Home. Lena probably is still mulling over which episode to submit. For me, episode 10 was her best work.
Wow. The site’s “experts” were mostly predicting Kit and Lena to win. I’d be sooooo happy if that happens! 🙂
Vincent Stark,
I agree. It’s been a case of “telling instead of showing” this season for the character. Now that she’s back in WF with LF (which I assume would happen in the book, including the Vale riding in to “save the day”) the show can go back to her own story arc. In the book, by the time Sansa meets Jon again, I suppose she’d be a little more attached to LF (who’s served as her “savior/guardian/protector” and who delivered her what he promised: WF), than her bastard brother. Hence, it won’t be that far-fetched for Sansa to go along LF’s possible plan to undermine Jon’s KitN position. We will then see her getting deep into playing the game with LF, who will continue to serve as her “mentor/trainer”. Sansa killing or one-upping her mentor eventually would be the bittersweet ending for their relationship. I hope the show gets to show us this dynamic between Sansa and LF.
It wasn’t that way for me at all with Tyrion. I recall not caring for him at all throughout A Game of Thrones and being disappointed that he not only didn’t die in the battle at the Green Fork, but that he actually fought well. That was pretty deep in the book, chapter 62. It wasn’t until I was reading ACoK that he started to turn around for me. Of course this was all prior to knowing how his story goes through later books and the show.
I concede to the idea that George may have a plan for Sansa to achieve something or perhaps attain a level of happiness. I just can’t quite agree yet that her storyline is pointing toward her being this major, instrumental piece in the endgame.
I did say that it was his original outline and things change over time. The series has expanded as he has written as well. No, the chances of all five of those characters being alive after the final page is unlikely. I don’t think it’s out of the question though despite his bittersweet comment for a story he has more than 1/7th yet to write. Bittersweet doesn’t necessarily mean those or any characters have to die though. It could mean other characters die that George noticed viewers cheering for. There are a number of them, to include Sansa. All the dragons and direwolves could die – and probably will. The living could fail against the NK and all flee to Essos but live out a happy life there. That’s unlikely, but there are a number of endings that could come about where those characters don’t die but it still be considered bittersweet.
I also said ‘ignoring the last two books’ for Sansa as I know George kind of screwed the steam of a lot of storylines in those. Maybe it does feel like a waste to have pov characters essentially watching events unfold, but in a story as widespread as ASoIaF it’s necessary to limit the number of them but also have one in each location. Not all of them need to achieve something really grand, but as a Stark, Sansa is the vehicle used to tell the necessary elements of the story in her location(s). I’m not saying Sansa will die (even if occasionally I’d prefer it) but I do think she can be a pov character, live and receive a happy ending without her needing to perform something fantastic.
Lord Parramandas,
I also preferred to watch team Jon and Sansa than Sansa and Littlefinger … I really hope they get rid off Littlefinger soon … He should go to the Riverlands and make his journey south to meet Danny, while Sansa stays with Jon at Winterfell.
Flora Linden,
Actually, Maisie Williams, ever the prankster, used social media to get herself invited to a Season 6 Episode 1 viewing party of some UCLA students. She brought snacks and surprised the group. Needless to say, they were gobsmacked. Would Sophie even think of this?
Dinklage chose the “drinking game” epidode! Lol. I am not getting my hopes up right now as to who will win, but if Kit/ Lena won, I couldn’t be happier.
The one problem with Stannis dying in the battle against the Boltons is that the show runners have already said that Stannis will burn Shireen. And Shireen is at the Wall. So for Stannis to burn her, he will have to go back to the Wall. The only way I can think of for this to happen is Stannis loses the battle, but survives and heads back to the Wall, in the middle of a storm. And there, for some reason he will burn Shireen.
Sam,
Jaime will support Cersei at least at the beginning , because she is the only person left for him. She will explain she had no choice but to burn the Sept and she didn’t expect Tommen would kill himself. Besides, Jaime wants revenge for Myrcella, the only child that told him dad and Danny made an alliance with the Sand Snakes. I believe Cersei’s secret weapon is Qyburn. He might have a plan to kill the dragons.
Flayed Potatoes,
No surprises Appart from Peter.Apparently they are going for episode I was the most in lol.I hope Kit and Lena win
Flayed Potatoes,
I think pretty much guarantees that its going to be Kit who will be winning this time..am happy for him
Lena is going to be submiting winds of winter for sure. .her scene with septa unella is the best …i hope her winning is as guaranteed as kit’s
Evnthough iam happy for kit lets see how many actually bring up conspiracies about how peter choosing no one and how much it all is about popularity and fame ..
Dee Stark,
It’s unbelievable. How could anyone body-shame Sophie Turner? Goes to show there will always be jerks out there who live to find fault with things even if they have to make it up.
Flayed Potatoes,
There were a few after the Con. I think Access Hollywood did them. Clips with Liam, Issac, Missandei actress, Iwan, maybe more I forget. Should be up on You Tube now.
mau,
Survival is what’s built into us by instinct. Many go through life battling issues whether they be emotional, mental, physical or a combination of all and yet they still trudge along doing the things necessary to stay alive. Sure, some succumb to suicide when the going gets too tough but many of us will deal with a plethora of shit thrown at us and still, our instinct is to survive it and hope for better days. The “strength” to endure is admirable yes, it is the average human nature. but the true celebration of spirit imo is how one allows themselves to be shaped by their life experiences. If all sense of innocence or joy is shattered, if personality becomes selfish, if darkness has entered the heart, to me that is not strong nor empowered. That’s damaged. Pity? yes. Role model? Not really.
Vincent Stark,
Wow so that could be why. The gulf between what we saw and what they have been saying is wide because they have it in their heads what book-Sansa’s arc/role is but they forgot to throw a few things into her veered off show arc to make it match up. They got book and show Sansa confused in their heads. SO wonder how they feel having to go with the narrative, once scripted and filmed it can’t be changed but my question is why, upon seeing the final product, would they decide to stick by a narrative publicly that would not make much sense to the average viewer?
A very interesting and civilized conversation in general 🙂
I have mentioned my views on Sansa’s arc elsewhere.
To the interview: it was interesting. This girl grew up under the microscope of the viewers and there are some really crazy people out there that would make comments about her appearence- and not only hers. I have read many times things that are totally insane about how different actors in the show look like, and their whatever appearence used as a twisted reasoning to express whatever opinion of character’s arcs. That’s really beyond my understanding!
I never thought that a beautiful girl like her would get such comments, but apparently she did. That situation can mess with one’s head especially on a teenage girl’s head, and I’m sure that she must have had a hard time building her confidence.
To the show and sibling relationships:
I find it very interesting that we were left with those glances from Sansa in the North and from Jamie in the South.
Both can be interpreted in many ways – though the production focused on Sansa’s to LF. When I watched the episode, I made a different inteprentation of course: she seemed happy at that moment Jon was pronounced King, reserved, but nonetheless happy. Her emotional status changed the moment she glanced at LF and I thought that she’s thinking something like ‘LF is definitely going to create problems, we’ll never be safe as long as he’s around -I can’t trust him, how can I take him out?’ or something along those lines. Then the production gave a different color to all that. I choose to stick with my first impression – it makes sense to me regarding the plot too that she will be the one to take LF out- and I hope I’m right.
Not enough was said about Jamie’s look though. There wasn’t a long discussion of that from the production. Nonetheless, this is, to my view, where we might see that relationship deteriorate fast. Cercei’s done the unthinkable – against Jamie’s only solid belief from the start: he killed the Mad King to prevent him from doing what Cercei’s done. That must shake Jamie’s view of her considerably – and that changes the entire Game. Jamie’s been walking on a tight rope with her for a long time now, and that might just be the event that throws him overboard. I can’t wait to see what happens!
Just to add one more thing :when looking at Sansa’s arc (and any character’s arc) we must remember where they’ve started and where they were destined to go so far. Sansa’s been the one that wanted to get the hell outta Winderfell/family, as a child. And when she finally returns to Winterfell as a grown woman, she realizes that home and family is the only thing that really matters to her (the Weirwood tree scene with LF). So even though there always been this ambivalence about her character, we know that her priorities and views have changed bit by bit through season 6.
We can’t forget that emotional development a few scenes later. Even if she finds LF proposals interesting to her ambitions, the show would have to explain how on Earth she suddenly forgets who LF is ( she states in almost all the scenes that he cannot be trusted) and sides him. That would be a huge plot hole, and against everything we have seen of her in season 6; it would be against her survival instinct and skills that were so emphatically shown through all those seasons!
That’s how I see things at least. 🙂 I could be totally wrong of course, and be very dissapointed in her arc next season!
ygritte,
That could be the case, but I still hope that D&D and Sophie and the rest are simply trolling the viewers. They have been talking about that “sibling rivalry” since ep4 or 5, but there was no sibling rivalry on the screen. What we saw in ep9 was not rivalry. It was the way Sansa dealt with pre-battle stress: by yelling and putting the blame for potential loss on the others – Jon in this case. Afterwards, Sansa said “sorry” and encouraged Jon to take the mantle of the Lord of Winterfell and King in the North. She looked quite satisfied and relieved that the North chose Jon. One of the reasons was that it made her less valuable and less accessible to Littlefinger and of cause, if she becomes dissatisfied with that next season, it will feel out of the blue. Especially, when Bran arrives, expresses his support to Jon (as we can assume), and becomes his heir. And this has to happen not later than in ep2 – they can’t have him camping right outside the Castle Black for long. Hence, there is no time for Sansa vs Jon and I refuse to take it seriously until I see something towards that on the screen.
Out of all the criticisms Sansa gets, this is the one that bothers me the most. So she talks about boys and love and romance. She’s a young girl. Just because she thinks about these things doesn’t mean she’s less of a character because of it.
ghost of winterfell,
Idk how people are going to defend a Peter win based on the episode he submitted lol.
I don’t want to get my hopes up either. All the other actors in the category are great too and to me it’s a miracle Kit even got nominated for an action role.
Here’s something with NCW: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/28/arts/television/game-of-thrones-season-6-finale-jaime-lannister-interview.html?_r=1
“Season 5 was the most depressing of all the seasons, ending, of course, with Jon Snow’s death. This season we started with his resurrection — there’s light at the end of the tunnel, we can fight this thing. The end of Season 5 was the turning point. Of course, Daenerys is the beautiful hero and she wants to bring beautiful change, but she’s also using these weapons of mass destruction. You can see King’s Landing burning even more now, and that’s a scary thought.”
I wonder if he knows how it will end or he’s just guessing. Because to me in the paragraph above and the one just before it in the article it seems there’s hints of foreshadowing there 🙂
Sam,
babies LOL
ygritte,
I hope the mods see this article and we get a separate post. I’ve been waiting for something from NCW.
Flayed Potatoes,
I think Jonathan Banks also has a good chance of winning. He is a known name, plays a popular character, very good actor. Peter and Kit may eat into each other’s votes. Plus, the Emmy’s have a history of handing out “make up for the past” awards. And a lot of people felt he deserved to win last year.
ygritte,
I like that NCW sees the Blackfish’s actions not as heroic, but rather stubborn and proud. I agree with that. I had more sympathy for Edmure than BF.
Great interview! I really liked his take on Jaime.
Sam,
I REALLY Want kit to win.. RREAAALLLY!!!!!!!!!!
Stark Raven’ Rad,
Why does it matter if she would?
Why do they need to be the same?
Sophie does her own things, for example, Power Shift, a series she is hosting.
http://variety.com/2015/digital/news/game-of-thrones-sophie-turner-powershift-huffington-post-1201622114/
Compare her to other dumb Hollywood celebrities her age. Sophie is an excellent person.
People need to get off her dick.
Dee Stark,
I want him to win so much but I’m trying to reign it in and just be happy he got a nomination in the first place.
ghost of winterfell,
I really liked his take on Jaime.
Me too. And it’s refreshing after all the talk of a certain Northern plot line lol. I really like Nickoleij (though I can never remember how to spell his name darnit.)
Lord Parramandas,
I actually hope there are differences of survivors/deaths in the endgame for the books and show. For instance, the show could kill Tormund or Davos and he could survive in the books, or vice versa, in order to be surprised by a different outcome… But I expect the destiny of the more important characters would be the same.
Dee Stark,
If his name gets announced as the winner I won’t be able to contain my joy and hubby will be giving me the side eye :). But my best friend’s due date is the 18th and I’m worried that’s when she’ll do something on time for once lol.
Mihnea,
Doran Martell’s plan in the books was much more interesting, rational and coherent than the revenge of the Sand Snakes in the show… They should have kept that idea … Besides, Alexander Siddig could have made it even better … Also, one beautiful and smart Arianne would have been also much better than the Sand Snakes … They wanted to keep Indira Varma, but they sacrifice all the plot … It was a mistake.
GRRM wrote too many chapters for the Martells that didn’t contribute much to the main story though…
Halfman,
It isn’t certain Sansa put Ramsay in the kennels … she didn’t know about the starving dogs that were waiting to be fed by Ramsay’s enemies. Sansa asked Jon where was he, so I believe it was Tormund and Jon’s idea to put Ramsay there and Sansa went to execute it …
Mag,
Yeah…..I strongly disagree here. Not to mention Arianne has absolutly no plot relevance without Griff. Not to say she is one of the most hated characters in the fandom.
If anything they should’ve cut it all together. They would have never, ever done the plot from the book.
Dorne was used to send Jaime away, it was clear they wanted to do his Riverun arc in S6 not S5, and tie the loose end with Myrcella
Now it serves as a ally for Dany and that is it.
The only different road they could’ve taken was Doran allying with Dany instead of Ellaria, but Arianne would not have been cast even then, because without Griff, she has no reason to exist.
I personally think they did the Sand Snakes taking revange for Oberyn, for very much the same reason they changed Tysha with Shae.
Dorne would still have gotten the same amount of backlash, only the sides would have been different.
But let’s not get into this please, It is pointless. I like what they did because it ended that story in under 10 minutes, had they done it like in the books we would have had 30+ minutes of Dorne, and that to me would have been a huge mistake.
This story isn’t about Dorne, it’s about Dany/Cersei/Jaime….etc Everything exists to add to their emotional and family drama.
This in the end will turn, not into a debate about the good or bad of Dorne, but into a debate on ”what kind of stories do we like?”, stories were small locations and tertiery characters are flashed out and have lots of ”screen-time”? Or stories that focus entirely on 4-6 ”main” characters and everything else is a background around them?
There is no right or wrong, and it’s pointless to ”debate”, because you can’t debate peoples personal tastes.
EDIT: I won’t continue this Dorne ”debate”, honestly I’m just tired of it. And I’ve heard the arguments, from both sides, countless times, and they just go in a circle and never end.
Jenny,
OMg I will cry for days – but I wont get my hopes up…I really want kit to win and I want the show to win again (though I doubt it 🙁 )
ygritte,
hahaha omg, that would be funny!
Mag,
Arianne would be better than the SS, yes. Or only one Oberyn’s daughter instead of 3.
But Doran’s plan in the books has more holes than Manderly’s.
mau,
I think Ellaria basically replaced Arianne. Agree though that only 1 or 2 SS would have been enough.
But without Griff I can simply see no plot reason for Arianne to exist.
Dee Stark,
Me too! Praying to the old gods and the new! LOL 😀
Vincent Stark,
It is absolutely true that the writers have the end game in mind and try to get to the finish line through means other than George RR Martin’s which may, in some cases, create discrepancies.
However, I fail to see what arc Book Sansa could possibly have that would constitute a more thorough “political education” than the one her TV counterpart has already been shown to have received.
As previously stated by mau, the political world of Westeros, the “game” so to speak, is hardly an unfathomably complex labyrinth. The novels’ political board does contain a rather large number of pieces and elements, it is true, but the moves and countermoves are rarely that creative, subtle or imaginative. The one “unknown” at any given time is motivation : what does this “player” hope to achieve by doing this or that ? And, with the exceptions of Varys and Littlefinger who are very much in a league of their own, the answers to this question are usually pretty straightforward.
There is not much more to the game, as understood and played by 99% of those who try their hands at it.
What could Book Littlefinger possibly teach Sansa that her TV counterpart has not been shown to have understood already ? Know your own strengths and weaknesses and try to use both at your advantage ? Always stay focused on your own interests, both short-term and long-term if possible ? Do not hesitate to lie if necessary and when you do, be convincing ? Find out what your fellow “players” want and use that knowledge to move them ? Keep an eye on the board at all time ? Know what you want ?
TV Sansa has demonstrated she could do it if need be. Much more so than her book equivalent so far. There have been quite a few lapses in the meantime, it is absolutely true, and her circumstances in seasons 5 and (most of) 6 have hardly been conclusive to effective game-playing but the knowledge is there. So what can we reasonably expect Book Sansa to learn that Show Sansa does not already know ?
What did Lady Olenna do to be called a “player” ? She kept Littlefinger from kidnapping and marrying Sansa back in season 3 (at Varys’s behest) and she killed Joffrey in season 4 (using Baelish’s planning and ressources)… So, in short, she did what the Spider and the Master of Coin told her to. And now, she is once again following Varys’s recommendations in regards to Daenerys.
What did Margaery do ? She kept her head down with Joffrey, gave kittens to Tommen and faked submission to the Faith in order to survive.
What did Roose Bolton and Walder Frey do ? They followed Tywin’s orders.
Players on the show are hardly impeccable masterminds.
Even Tywin and Tyrion who have always been head, shoulders and elbows above the rest rarely devised any scheme of tremendous complexity or importance. They understand the need for compromise, know when to use manipulation and when to mobilise their strengths for maximum impact.
Given the average level of game-playing displayed on the show, Sansa is well within her peer group 🙂
ygritte,
Great find ! Thank you so much ! Nikolaj Coster-Waldau is such a charming, funny man.
I understand him fretting over Daenerys’s arrival. I feel the same way. The image of that dragon-shaped shadow over King’s Landing, as per Bran’s vision, was less than reassuring. The showdown is going to be intense !
And he is 100% right about Blackfish : his decision was stupid. Beautiful and heroic, but stupid. Don Quixote-like even.
SiriuslyStark,
I agree on what was given on screen for Sansa does not match what is said in press or SDCC, I believe Sansa knows LF is now her major threat, he told her everything she needs to know, he wants the IT, her and Jon is a obstacle for him and he will meddle with him, also Sansa is aware that if Bran shows up LF could kill him also.
I see Sansa as playing both LF and Jon, to protect Jon’s back; and keep LF at bay.
Sansa may not come out smelling as a rose but the Starks do need their version of a QOT.
Jamie is defiantly PO he’s going to leave Cersei just as she needs his protection, I think she’ll die at someone’s else hands as Jamie just forgets her and leaves.
Dee Stark,
Yeah I have my doubts about kit but I’m crossing all my fingers lol.I’m confident about the show winning though especially with the new Emmy rules
To name just one, Book Sansa is already far better at talking with other nobles than Show Sansa, who was an utter failure even at basic interaction with the other lords this season. She’s supposed to know how to talk to people and charm them, that’s one of the skills she had even in her first chapter. It would not have been difficult to show her making good arguments in the Northern tour.
And quite apart from that, the practical application of lessons is the key part. It’s all well and good to rhyme off assorted maxims, and another to put them into practice.
Jenny,
what are the new emmy rules?
This interview is in spanish … at 25.40 Sophie is asked about her relationship with Kit and Maisie … She said Kit is like a brother … she loves him but he bothers her a lot, drives her crazy, taunts her … and she can only tell him he is really short …he is one of his best friends. In the first seasons she felt like his little sister and now they have developed an authentic friendship …
At the last part of the interview, they talk about Emilia’s demands of equal nudity … She is asked who would she like to watch naked??? really??? and she replies she met these men since she was 13 …
It must be really horrible for her the idea of a love story with Jon … I wonder if the writers could make a fake script for her only to make a joke … they did it before with Alfie Allen.
Dee Stark,
Basically the gist of it is that now all members of the academy can vote and not just a select few.They changed it last year
GeekFurious,
Yes! Just…..yes! You perfectly encapsulated everything I was thinking about how dumb she sounds in interviews and how she literally knows nothing about her own character!
Jenny,
Ahh okay!!
QueenofThrones,
What the other poster was saying is that with the geography of Westeros being what it was there’s no way for the Blsckfish to get Tully armies to the North without going thru Frey territory. Hence was Walder is known as “the Lord of the Crossing”. His stronghold sits at only point to cross. That’s why Robb had initially agreed to marry a Frey. He was stuck.
So that entire plan was totally illogical. It was just an excuse for show runners to get Breanne back with Jamie.
Mag,
Thanks! I wish there’s a way to mute the Spanish voiceover. 🙂 Yeah, it would be so awkward to be doing a love scene with someone you consider a sibling. And, I wouldn’t put it past D&D to send her a fake script with a very steamy love scene with Jon!
Sam,
While I don’t think Jon-Sansa will happen, I recently found out that the Starks do have a history of marrying within the family and one of those examples is a Jonnel Stark who married his niece Sansa Stark ( his half brother’s daughter) . Make what you will of the names involved…
QueenofThrones,
Just a one thing: You said Jon didn’t care that he had few men, I think that is completely unfair to the character. Jon did care, Jon did know but they had reached out to all Northern Houses and whoever was with them was with them. Ramsay had Rickon, time was of the essence. Winter was coming, time was of the essence. It is NOT that Jon didn’t care. He did. It is that he understood that they needed to move else winter would render them useless, else he was exposing his baby bro to torture. Jon may not care for his own life, and that is his right, but he cares about others.
Mihnea,
What I got from that bonus chapter is that Harry is a real a**hole. Yeah, I don’t think Sansa/Alayne is going to have a happy marriage with him. If nothing else, it will be exhausting since Sansa must pretend to be something she’s not, and I don’t mean the bastard daughter of Little Finger, a seductress who knows how to deal with men.
Sean C.,
One thing here. Why would Jon be named King? Why would Robb be named King? He raised his banners and set forth to liberate his father. The Northern Lords wanted independence and the chose Rob because with Ned’s death he was already their leader by default. That is the only reason why someone as young and inexperience like Robb was named King. The same can be said about Jon. It is Lady Mormont who first proclaims him King, the same lady who has spent some days watching him and who saw with her own eyes his bravery in battle. And he is the son of Eddard Stark, the brother of the Young Wolf, their dead King. It is very obvious that if they are going to once again have a King, The North knows no King but the King in the North whose name is Stark, that King was going to be Jon. No one other than Jon. The show has been telling us for several seasons that blood matters, that strength matters and that in most regions being male matters.
Danny,
Those are all part of the power dynamics that have been played out throughout the show and in this instance, as you say, they obviously point to Jon being made King.
The Boltons only held the title of Warden of the North because the Crown had bestowed it on them to give them authority over the North once again.
Once the Boltons were defeated the Warden of the North title once again disappears as it did when Robb rebelled against the Crown and declared the North independent.
That is, unless the Starks were to go back to the Crown and pledge fealty to them, which obviously isn’t going to happen.
If the North is not pledged to the Crown then it is an independent kingdom which needs a King. Jon fits that mould in more ways than anybody else in the North.
I don’t have any problem with the Northern Lords declaring him King. It makes sense.
We could’ve maybe done with a bit more exposition to more clearly outline the Northern Lords’ thinking, but where do the producers find the time?
Sophie is pure Blonde now. Does Sansa die off screen?
hahah
GeekFurious,
I’m sensing a little sarcasm. 🙂
Newbietothegame,
For someone who doesn’t watch, she talks about it a whole lot, even talks about actors and storylines not directly related to hers.
…that’s a head-scratcher.
QueenofThrones,
Brienne was fulfilling an oath to Catelyn. Theon helped Sansa ultimately for his own salvation.
..and if she told Littlefinger to “fuck off”, It sounded suspiciously like , “fuck me”.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I thought the scene was very good but it definitely needed at least one northern lord to utter some quick line of dialogue about him being a bastard no longer mattered or Sansa legitimizing him. For years now it has been canon that being a bastard is a black mark against someone in Westeros. And the show should have addressed it. 30 seconds of dialogue wouldn’t have killed their running time.
Flayed Potatoes,
What kind of person ridicules their own team? The kind of person on the opposing team.
Inga,
She was lying. She was lying the whole time. She was lying, manipulating, undermining, prevaricating and was being duplicitous.
Tar Kidho,
If that quote is accurate – ’cause so-help-me-god, I’m NOT watching it again – Sophie DOES understand why Sansa didn’t tell Jon of the Vale cavalry: she’s jealous. Sophie said so herself.
Interesting. Weren’t the parents of Ned first cousins? Anyway, I still don’t think that’s the direction the story will go. There are only 2 more books left and Sansa’s still pretending to be Alayne Stone and preparing to wed Harry (the Horrible). By the time the siblings/cousins meet again, the walkers will be upon them so I don’t think there will be time for romance. 🙂 Besides, I also think that LF, in the book, will scheme against Jon and Sansa will go along with/take part in it (at least initially).
ACME,
Hi ACME! Great analysis as usual!
While I agree on a general level, given the specific circumstances Jon and Sansa were in, being charming and pleasant would have been out of place, I believe.
Time and time again, we have been told that the North responds to strength, nothing else. Northerners themselves take pride in affirming that, unlike their Southern counterparts, they do not do “politics”. They are straightforward, rough, do not care for niceties and like being shown who’s boss. I think that was the whole point of Robb’s scene with Greatjon Umber (“your meat is bloody tough” 🙂 )
This is part of the mythos of the North. So is their alleged hyper developped sense of loyalty (“The North remembers”). That is what they believe of themselves and this is what Sansa attempted to tap into. All the arguments Lyanna Mormont presented when she shamed the Northern lords into proclaiming Jon KitN were in essence the same Sansa gave them during her and her brother’s tour : the Boltons were evil, you owe allegiance to the Starks and no one else, it is your duty to answer the call. Mic drop for Baby Bear, apparently.
Which was of course slightly ironic and a teeny wee bit hypocritical of the ursine fireball because the clincher that swayed her had very little to do with loyalty and everything to do with the White Walkers but hey ! She is ten and awesome so she is allowed a dash of dishonesty when need be ^^
Regardless of the value we may assign to Sansa’s and Lyanna’s points (I, like you, think they could have been infinitely better), the Northern lords were shown to respond favorably to them in the Winterfell great hall, after the Starks’ victory… All the lieges expressed their regrets and remorses for failing to abide by their pledge, thereby retroactively validating Sansa’s approach.
I, for one, believe it makes the Northern lords look extremely hypocritical and somewhat weak-willed (especially seeing as they are guilt-tripped by a 10-year-old furball and overcompensate by proclaiming KitN) which may very well be the point : the North is not “special” after all.
However, the scene and its argumentative arc work as “Sansa/Lyanna was/is right, we should have lived up to our own self-proclaimed legend”
A dornish Tyrell,
Hello dornish Tyrell ! Thanks loads, it is very kind of you to say so 🙂
I really enjoy reading about all the different perspectives fans have. As a book reader and show watcher, the fact that I was able to root for Jaime when I originally wanted to kill him says something about the complexity of these characters. But what I have been waiting for since season 2 has been Daenerys arriving at Kings Landing and facing off against the Lannisters. The story line in the south is what I am looking forward to the most. I get the sense, speaking of grey characters, that even though I initially felt Dany was this hero who would save the day with her dragons, now I am not so sure. GRRM even stated how he hates cartoon like good and evil. Now I feel everyone is where they are supposed to be for the conclusion of the series. We have the north, south, and also the group in the middle. The BWB, the Hound, Melisandre, Arya. I wonder how those guys will interact. I am looking forward to the north storyline as well. I get the sense that Sophie wants her character to be a real player and maybe in the book she will be. No one knows. But Sansa is most representative of a traditional high born girl in a medieval time period. Yara, Meera, and Arya are exceptional fighters for this time period and Dany is other worldly. Many young girls from this era were married off at age 13 and as disturbing as that feels for us, these young girls were little more than objects in many cases. Sansa was written as more traditional. She went through hell and she understands the south in a way Jon isn’t able to, and when I consider her from that perpective, perhaps she will clash with him as she remembers the fate of her father and brother. Kit Harringston stated in an interview that his character doesn’t pay attention to Sansa’s needs or how she is feeling or her body language. I can see this leading to friction. but who know, I could be off base as there are some wonderful theories out there.
ACME,
No offense, but the situations are different and that’s why Lyanna Mormont’s approach worked.
Sansa was trying to pull rank without having anything to show for herself and giving them no reason why they should follow the Starks. Their only army at the time was a really outnumbered “army” of Wildlings. If she had taken the Vale army from the beginning and used it in the recruitment, she could have afforded to pull rank because she had an army that would have assured them victory.
Davos said at the first meeting they had that they need to get the Northern lords to join them by convincing them they were joining a winning fight (which obviously failed because the Starks didn’t have those resources, and it was difficult to convince Northern houses who had lost so much because of Robb’s war to join them).
Lyanna’s situation in entirely different. The battle had been won and she was sitting at the victors’ table. She could afford to call out everyone, especially because she had taken a huge risk herself by following the Starks.
It doesn’t validate Sansa’s approach at all because:
1. The Northern houses they asked for help had no idea she was hiding the Vale army from them, so they had no reason to join what they thought was a losing battle alongside Wildlings. Are they supposed to read Sansa’s mind and predict the future? You really can’t blame them here. Robb pretty much wrecked them and they were also afraid of the Boltons.
2. Jon still got made king over Sansa. Ramsay already mentioned Jon’s apparently good reputation and Lyanna Mormont made him king despite his bastard status. So clearly people were responding better to Jon the bastard, than Sansa the Stark.
3. If Sansa’s approach when asking for their help had been a good one, then it shouldn’t have been difficult to recruit houses based on HER name. Except it was, so there was obviously something wrong and you see it in the reactions of the characters in the recruitment scenes: Glover gives her a smackdown (and even Jon cringed when she started pulling rank on him, so clearly it was a bad move), Lyanna Mormont dismisses Sansa as well when she tries some Southron flattery (and while Lyanna shows impatience with Jon at the beginning, she still listens to him more, asks him about the WW, and is convinced by Davos based on Jon’s ability to see the bigger picture and his link with Jeor).
I’m sorry, but the approach you’re claiming is validated isn’t supported by what is actually seen on the tv show. There was probably some idea of having Sansa come out on top in the writing stage, but when you look at the execution, and what is on screen and what is shown via editing, reactions from the characters, sequence of events, (and so on), her approach isn’t validated.
It’s certainly true that Lyanna is speaking after they’ve won, which changes the Starks’ negotiating position, but that doesn’t change the core arguments. Now, maybe you can argue that all the Northern lords in that scene are just cravenly abasing themselves before whoever’s in charge, but that is most definitely not how the scene is played. The scene is “awesome Lady Lyanna reminds the Northerners where their real duty lay”. It is played as if Glover, Manderly, etc. are sincerely sorry for their cowardice and disloyalty, which means that Sansa’s earlier argument that they should have been following the Starks was correct.
It’s irritating writing, because the earlier scene seems pretty clearly to take the side that Glover has a point, but that’s completely discarded when he reappears.
Flayed Potatoes,
I would agree with you with all my heart if the KitN scene played out differently than it did.
The Northern lords could have stood their ground against Lyanna Mormont. They could have expressed their joy and relief at seeing the Starks back in control of Winterfell and the North, thereby confirming their allegiance, while still revendicating their very sound reasons for refusing to participate in the battle. There would have been no contradiction whatsoever : “we’re delighted you won but we do not regret not joining you. It was too dangerous a proposition, we could not take that risk for the mere sake of revenge, ancestral fealty or storytelling”. It would have been a perfectly acceptable and firm revendication of their pragmatic rationale. No hard feeling.
However, this is not what happened (I took the liberty to highlight certain phrases) :
They fold, they repent, they ask for forgiveness. In their own eyes and their own words, they were wrong not to answer the Starks’ call, regardless of the odds. Because it was their duty. Because it is what the North mythos is all about. They failed to live up to their regional reputation, to their legend and they seem genuinely ashamed of themselves.
Either Sansa was wrong to expect them to fight on the sole basis of the Stark name in which case the lords should stand up to Lyanna Mormont’s shaming or they sincerely feel they should have fought for the Starks no matter what in which case Sansa was right all along.
Sean C.,
At best, it makes the Northern lords wishy-washy. At worst, it makes them look hypocritical. I wonder how much of it is intentional on the writers’ part. Do they want us to see that the North is nothing special after all and that the Northern lords just like to side with winners, like everybody else ?
If so, it is interesting. If not, it is, as you say, just irritating.
Sean C.,
ACME,
I read that scene as exactly like that: there is nothing exceptional about the North and the northern Houses (and in this regard, Sansa was wrong and Davos was right)… All that pride in not being like tha southeners and their supposed loyalty to the Starks were but a façade that quickly crumbled after the Red Wedding… And for good reasons! I’m not maligning the northern Houses. Their grievances were quite valid! In my subjective interpretation (fallible as it may be), the northern lords were ashamed for not living up to their own expectations and they overcorrected their perceived failure by naming Jon KITN.
And I find this much more compelling and “realistic” than the alleged northern conspiracy from the books… But this is a matter of personal taste and nothing else!
Sean C.,
Not entirely. Jon does tell him that there’s nothing to forgive, which could be considered an acknowledgment that the Glovers had a right to be cautious.
I’d say that in the context of that moment it plays as Jon being gracious to somebody who has admitted fault. The whole tenor of the scene goes against the idea that the latecoming lords had valid reasons, otherwise Lyanna Mormont is just an obnoxious bully (the script also overlooks that she herself wasn’t remotely “the North Remembers!” when the Starks came to her either; she snarked on them, and then Davos recruited her on a totally unrelated pretext).
A dornish Tyrell,
I hope and believe you are quite correct.
It fits rather nicely with the “life is not a song” theme of the season : the discovery that Ned Stark lied to everyone for close to 20 years (he had a very good reason, mind you, but he still lied which contradicts everything he ever stood for), Melisandre’s crisis of faith and uncertainty in regards to the Lord of Light’s righteousness, Tormund and Davos doubting messiah-like kings, Tyrion fearing Daenerys’s bouts of ruthlessness, etc.
The North is, tendencially, no more loyal than the rest of Westeros and it does not have any monopoly on memory. However, the Northern lords want to live up to their mythos and this desire can push them to act in certain ways (like it did with what you described, very accurately I believe, as their “overcorrection” with the KitN proclamation… They elect poor Jon without even asking him whether he wants the job or not, without really paying attention to his warning about the White Walkers, without wondering whether it is politically and strategically sound, etc).
So, Sansa was right to want to tap into that regional mythology for it does hold tremendous swaying power. However, her grave mistake was not to factor in Davos’s perspective and adjust her arguments accordingly. Sansa has yet to learn that one should always listen to Davos ! ^^
That’s very much true!! Oh, sweet Davos! The Jiminy Cricket of Westeros. 🙂
A dornish Tyrell,
If naming Jon as King was overcorrection on the part of the northeners, what do you think they should have done?
That’s what I think too will happen regarding Sansa!! I hope that we are right!!!!!!! 🙂
And Jamie – now there’s a puzzle. I think we’ll see that relationship going from bad to worse through next season! But what will Jamie do, that’s a puzzle to me. But I hope, he gets out of it alive and free from Cercei’s manipulation- free to be the good man and hero Brienne thinks him to be. Yes, I confess: I have this dream that Jamie joins Jon, along with Brienne, the Brotherhood, the Hound, and Arya. It’s a nice dream, that likely stays in the dreamworld! 🙂
Reading your cite of Miss Mormont’s speech made me want to shout King in the North! LOL
I agree with your view on this. Yes, they didn’t have to have a King, they could just renew their support to the Starks and be done with it. Jon didn’t ask for anything, nor is it by any means useful for him to be a King at this moment. Being accepted as a plain Lord Stark would suffice. All that he wants is people to unite because the WW are coming. But they do it anyway without asking him, and that can only make sense in the context you write here: they are dissapointed in themselves, they have broken this unwritten law of the North. They are people of Tradition: they believe in the Old gods. They believe in loyalty and duty and the Starks for thousands of years. They believe in the ‘Winter is coming’ (rather it is here). And they are the most likely to accept the truth that the dead are coming with it. That puts things under a very different perspective – the Game’s context has changed whether the players are aware of it or not. Jon, Davos, Tormund, many of their men, know that: they have seen it. Sansa doesn’t seem to realize that yet. Maybe the Lords don’t either… But they soon will (WW theme starts playing) 🙂
On the second part of your thoughts, I think they wanted to emphasize how people are willing to cheer and side anyone at the good times, but whether they stay loyal at the bad times, is questionable – even if their lack of loyalty and honor can be understood. And that goes not only for the Northern Lords but for everyone in Westeros. People will stand with you when you’re a winner and things are rosy, but very rarely do they when you’re losing or when things go bad: survival instinct.
Nonetheless, as I have mentioned before, the fact that those Lords side Jon AFTER all what happened, after they have chosen to deprive House Stark their support at the moment of their need, and especially while Jon understands why they did that – he didn’t get angry at them when they refused to join, because he understands the loss, pain and dissapointment they suffered from the previous war (and if he could have avoided the BoB he would have done so) – creates an entirely different dynamic for this relationship with them. I believe they will stick to their word this time, plainly because the situation is different. It’s not about politics anymore, it’s about life or death, and Jon’s fighting for the living.
And wholeheartedly agree: One must ALWAYS listen to Davos!!! I love this guy!!!!
SiriuslyStark,
They did need to choose a king/queen though. By overthrowing the Boltons, the crown appointed Warden of the North, the North has essentially seceded from the crown and they need to have some sort of a ruling system. And monarchy is what they know and prefer.
And they cannot make Jon Lord Stark, only the royalty can legitimize bastards. They made Jon Snow their king.
I understand what you say, however I guess they had the option of recognizing him as Warden of North, and Lord Stark, as easily as they proclaimed him King, using the public consensus ( legitimizing him by royalty stands only as far as North is concerned, it doesn’t legitimize him anywhere else).
The only way – as far as I’m aware ( I haven’t read the books) – to be legitimised to all of Westeros, is that either his ‘father’, or a trueborn Stark legitimizes him appointing him the heir and successor of Winterfell and the North – which so far as we know, hasn’t happened. What I mean is that, proclaiming him King, doesn’t practically solve the issue, since he won’t be recognized by anyone else outside the North as such. On the contrary might create additional problems. Of course the situation could change next season, if Head on Westeros changes (Dany taking IT for instance) , or if Westerosi Lords interests change regarding Jon’s place. We’ll see.
That said, it doesn’t change how happy I was at that moment though (I was shouting King in the North too!), even while I was aware that fact puts Jon in harm’s way. I hope all the Old and New Gods be on his side! 🙂
ACME,
Yeah they WERE loyal to house Starks. But Sansa went about recruiting them the wrong way. It was not the time and place to pull rank when she had nothing to show for herself besides her name. How are the Nornerners going to predict the tide of the battle? Do they read her mind and guess about the Vale army? They were suffering a lot after the RW. Lyanna only had 62 men to spare because of this and Sansa was being all snarky to Jon about it. The Hornwoods and Mazins also didn’t have more than 200. She thought the North would rally to her side because of her name, but she completely misjudged them and behaved like it didn’t matter. She had no clue what the political situation was (she even wanted to get the Karstarks, even though Robb executed their lord lmao). You can’t blame people like Glover for not joining when: 1. The Boltons helped him get back his home. 2. The Starks only had an army of Wildlings and nothing substantial that could beat the Boltons.
Glover was actually willing to join, but based on the information he had at the time there was no reason to.
That’s why her approach was not validated and Davos was right. Idk why Sansa fans just don’t get it that she messed up during the tour and the show itself supports it.
SiriuslyStark,
Warden of the North is a title given by the crown. So only the crown can appoint one as such. By supporting the Starks, the Northern lords are also essentially rebelling against the crown. So the only way forward is to appoint a king/queen as the ruling head.
No, a father or a trueborn Stark (or any other family) cannot legitimize a bastard. Only a king/queen can do that. It’s a Westerosi rule. That’s why Stannis was willing to legitimize Jon and Ramsay was legitimized not by Roose, but by a decree from Tommen.
As for the others recognizing Jon as king, they will be forced to once they see that the northerners themselves have chosen him. Besides, the Lannisters who are on the throne will not recognize any Stark as the ruler in the north. Jon being a bastard would not make it any worse. Dorne itself is seemingly being ruled by bastards. The Vale knights were already hailing Jon as the KitN. The Tyrells are gone, as are the Baratheons. So who is left to object?
If Jon is to face any danger, it will be from LF, he is the snake in the grass and I do believe that Sansa will ultimately choose Jon over LF.
SiriuslyStark,
I must say, that I completely disagree with you on this one.
First up: for people who get out of abusive relationship to retreat to “safe haven” is quite understandable and then step 2 of a healing process is often to “regain control” of their lives and start dreaming and hoping again. “To move forward”. I will agree that show might not have done a great job of showing it. GOT is not likely to have therapists hanging around but they did have Petyr state: You can sit and grief for the past or you planing for the future. and for me the process stated long before ep. 10.
She gets back to Jon hoping to get her “safe haven”/WF. He is however tired of fighting and will not take action. For her to reflect on the fact that her replying on men has not be a success so far aka marrying Joff, will bring happiness = wrong, Trusting Lf advice = wrong btw. he did give her the choice to turn back from Ramsay – so the whole “sold her thing” is not true. But for her to start wondering is not completely far fetch. Also there is “that” scene where she says: all I can think off, is what they took from me. That scene never make it on to the show. But it does indicate that something is up. I also believe that the first Lyanna scene mattered far more to Sansa. After Ramsay the only thing left was her name: “Stark” and for Lyanna to point out that no one sees Sansa as a Stark must be heartbreaking. Up til that point Sansa clinged to the fact that she was at least still a Stark but she was wrong. We even got that reconfirmed in King of … scene. Jon is “the Stark.” So what is left that is truly hers – her little piece of land? Nothing. If Jon was to married a fine nothern lady and that wife painted WF pink what could Sansa do? And when/if Bran returns and his future wife paints WF purple. What is Sansa options? Right now for Sansa to find her own piece of land – somewhere she was in control would make sense. And it need not be a Joncentric at all. She could marry Sweet Robin and kill him off. Poison him with sweetmilk. If show had more time she could even try and claim Dreadfort. There is a lot of things she could do to reclaim control of her life and a life beyond GOT as the character is not aware she might die season 7 or 8. Any conflict with Jon could stem from her continued relation to LF. Lets say he goes along to “off” Sweet Robin. Out of concern Jon would try to stop her from leaving with the “man no one trusts” but she will claim “she is a big girl now and can take care of herself” Some more back and forth between them “who knows what is best for me – scenario” and she leaves away. But for her to stay – as a redheaded sidekick -while Jon roams around WF – screaming for more men and more steel while she is all: “Yes Jon – no Jon – good idea Jon” would be waste of character and screen time. If you think she could be a trusted advisor for Jon then you should kill of Davos or Tormund. From a narrative perspective and budget perspective why keep on 3 characters that basically have the same function. And they would all need screen time. We only have 13 episodes left.
So I am jumping on the LF advice here: let us not grieve for the past – but start to plan for the future.
Concerning the issue with the fealty or lack thereof of the Northern houses, the issue ultimately arises due to the show changing the reason for Robb Breaking faith with the Frey marriage alliance. In the books he does so to keep s young woman from being disgraced who he slept with, that’s being ever the Stark. In the show he does it selfishly for love without a thought to duty. This divergence from the books led the show to that very powerful Glover scene. The North in the books stays much more loyal to the Starks and does not fear the Boltons nearly as much as in the show. I feel that is in lard part to the understanding of why Robb did what he did. Starks are loyal and honorable to a fault, even when it’s to their detriment. Hence the hiding of Jon Snow by his Uncle Ned.
ghost of winterfell,
SiriuslyStark,
As SiriuslyStark said, recognizing a Lord or Lady of Winterfell would have sufficed… They didn’t need a Warden or the North and certainly not a King.
I think you’re grossly misremembering that scene. Glover was never willing to help Jon. He sneered at him for having only the support of House Mormont and then showed his disgust at Jon when the rumors of Jon’s wildling army was confirmed. No, he was never willing to help, he just listened to them out of respect and nothing more.
In any case, that scene is only to show us the (very real) grievances of the northern houses as a result of the Red Wedding.
A dornish Tyrell,
Okay, then I disagree, for the same reasons which I stated to SiriuslyStark.
ghost of winterfell,
No worries! Disagreeing is perfectly fine. 🙂
A dornish Tyrell,
I wanted to add,if I am not mistaken, being conferred the title of Lord/Lady of Winterfell does not give them any ruling rights. It only gives them the right to their castle and lands. And the North would need a ruling system after deposing the Boltons.
Secondly, it looks like Jon cannot be made Lord of Winterfell. That title only passes to the trueborn Starks, the rightful heirs. Accordingly, Sansa is currently the Lady of Winterfell. ( as per official GOT site). The castle and lands all belong to her. However, Jon has been chosen to rule by being made king, which is a title independent of Lord/Lady of Winterfell.
A dornish Tyrell,
I’m not. He asked them who was fighting in their army. The fact that he is even interested in that, means there was a chance he could have been persuaded. If Sansa had accepted the Vale army from the beginning and had used it to rally the North, nobody would have refused them because it’s a guaranteed victory. Glover also said he received them out of respect for Ned and he could be skinned alive for even talking to them. The fact that he even took the risk to receive them and hear them out in the first place, combined with the fact that he did not turn them in or informed the Boltons, says a lot.
ghost of winterfell,
You’re right about everything. I hope the show doesn’t forget that Bran becomes Lord of Winterfell when he returns.
ghost of winterfell,
You are absolutely right regarding the lordship of Winterfell, but that puts King Jon in the awkward situation of being a king without a Keep and/or lands of his own.
Moreover, the Kings in the North of yore were Starks of Winterfell. So now Winterfell is Jon’s (as per his kingship) or Sansa’s (as per her ladyship)?
Probably none of this matter since the WW are coming, but still it’s fun to speculate about the politics of the North. 🙂
A dornish Tyrell,
Maybe Jon takes the Dreadfort? The Boltons no longer need it.
Flayed Potatoes,
I guess it depends on when Bran returns to Winterfell. If it’s early in the season, I can only imagine LF’s reaction when he realizes that there is yet another obstacle, which he had not considered, to him gaining any true power through Sansa, as he hopes to do. Any dismay from him would make my day 🙂 . If Bran arrives in WF late in the season, it’ll probably not matter much anyway, if the Wall falls/ is breached at the end of the season ( as we are expecting) .
A dornish Tyrell,
I think Winterfell is Sansa’s as of now, not Jon. And you are right, it puts Jon in a unique position, a king without any keep/ lands. We will have to wait for the next season to clarify the situation more. I think these things will be sorted out before the WW’s arrive, which will probably happen at the end of S7 at the earliest.
And yeah, we have all of 12 months to keep speculating 🙂 .
ghost of winterfell,
I think in reality Jon will operate from Winterfell and that will be his de facto seat.But hypothetically he can get Last hearth or the Dreadfort if Sansa let’s him have it.Or he can pull an Aegon and just build his castle.There’s plenty of land in the north.
WallyFrench,
I’m sure Jon will take those castles and man them (probably with wildlings) to prepare for the WW invasion… But to make the Dreadfort the seat of the new independent Kingdom of the North? How dare you!!! 😛
ghost of winterfell,
My crackpot dream is for Jon to become Lord of the Dreadfort because it sounds badass lol.
Idk what excuse the show can come up with for Bran to make it to Winterfell later than episode 3. It’s not like he has a lot left to do, unlike Arya.
Flayed Potatoes,
Again, I would enthusiatically agree with you, if the Northern lords had stood their ground in the KitN scene. But they did not.
When Lyanna Mormont started chastising them for not abiding by their pledge, the lords would have been perfectly within their right had they fought back, had they reiterated all the very good reasons why they refused the call. Why didn’t they ? They were frightened into submission by the steely glare of a 10-year-old ? To paraphrase the Hound, f*ck the 10-year-old ! The scene would have worked just as well had the lords defended their previous stance while still pledging allegiance to the Starks for the future. But this is not what happened.
Instead, the Northern lords repented for their sins. For not living up to their regional legend. Because the words are “The North remembers”, not “The North remembers, unless it is too painful or dangerous to do so in which case, it prefers to forget”.
Now, as far as I am concerned, I find the second version much more realistic and less jingoistic however this is not what the Northern lords want to stand for. They hold themselves to a much higher (somewhat absurd, to be honest) standard, one that says they must be willing to go to war and possibly die for the Starks no matter what the odds or the pain may be.
They failed to live up to the North’s self-belief. Seven hells, they failed to live up to the Riverlands’ reality !
Robb was not just KitN; he was also King of the Trident and the rivermen fought for him just as valiantly as the Northerners did. The Tullys’ lieges suffered just as brutally and lost just as much as their Northern counterparts during and after the War of the Five Kings.
Yet, when the Blackfish called his bannermen to get his home back, they all flocked towards him. They were willing to go toe-to-toe with the Crown itself ! Willing to sustain a siege, no matter how long. Willing to die of starvation if need be. Was it absurd and a bit stupid ? Yes ! Was Blackfish’s plan quite self-serving ? Yes ! Yet, the rivermen stood by him. And when they eventually abandoned the fight, it was only because Edmure, the more legitimate Tully heir, ordered them to. Even their “defeat” was proof of their allegiance.
The Riverlands put the North to shame (shame, shame…) in the loyalty department. And this is why the Northern lords keenly feel the burn of Lady Lyanna’s chastising remarks, regardless of said remarks’ blatant hypocrisy considering Baby Bear herself did not seem to “remember” much when the Starks came to her, ridiculing Sansa for being twice married and Jon for being illegitimate, and only followed them because she was scared of being eaten by ice zombies…
As the KitN scene is written and performed, it validates every single argument Sansa put forward during her and Jon’s tour. I believe this is even why she had this little “Mona Lisa” smile when Lyanna started talking. It was a “thank you for agreeing with me” moment for her.
Now, you, me and anyone else, we may look at these arguments and think “well, that’s bloody hogwash ! Why should these poor blokes feel bad for not rushing to help people they don’t even know and whose brother’s war decimated their families ?” That is entirely fine. But it is not what the Northern lords themselves think. They think that all those points about remaining true to your Lord no matter what are perfectly valid and that they should have overcome their reluctance and lived (even possibly died) by those principles.
A dornish Tyrell,
I’m just wondering – if the Boltons don’t have any heirs available, does that make Sansa the Lady/heir of Dreadfort since she’s the widow of its last lord?
A king without a castle is so weird. 🙂
SiriuslyStark,
The thing about the KitN scene is that it plays a bit like a comedy of errors ! ^^
Jon is beyond a shadow of a doubt the right man, the chosen one dare I even say ? 😉 , to lead the living in their confrontation with the Others. There is not an iota of room for hesitation in this regard. No one else can or should be in charge for he is the only one worthy of the job. Jon is it !
However, he is proclaimed KitN for all the “wrong” reasons. It is so blatant it’s almost comical and I cannot believe the writers did not do it on purpose, so manifest is it.
Jon tries to talk about the White Walkers and the threat from beyond the Wall. He refers to the upcoming battle very artfully and ominously, I have to say :
That could have been the start of very good conversation about what Jon witnessed, what he fought against for five years, his experience with the Night’s Watch and the Free Folk. This is a subject matter where his credentials and expertise shine like a thousand suns. That alone would be more than enough to justify proclaiming the White Wolf KitN or whatever other title the lords in attendance have in their backpockets.
Yet, nobody picks up on it. The topic is immediately dropped and everyone moves on to Lyanna’s spiel in which she repeats all of Sansa’s Northern tour arguments only to end up electing Jon… It basically goes : “Sansa was right all along and you, lords, should be ashamed for not doing what she expected of you ! Therefore her brother should be king” That’s a complete non sequitur if there ever was one 😉
And the “comedy of errors” theme continues with the reasons Baby Bear and the lords list for electing Jon :
– he is of Ned Stark’s blood (technically true, but we all know what they mean by that; they all believe him to be Ned Stark’s son which he decidedly is not. By Westerosi rules, he has Stark blood but is a Targaryen);
– he avenged the Red Wedding (nope ! Tyrion, Arya and Ramsay, of all people, killed the culprits of that massacre. Jon had nothing to do with it);
– he is the sole victor of the BotB (yes and no. He fought valiantly, heroically even, during it but the ultimate outcome was very much a joint effort).
There are many excellent reasons to proclaim Jon KitN. What he is and what he has done more than warrant all the awards people might be tempted to throw at him. However, the Northern lords manage to avoid each and every single one of those excellent reasons while mentioning a completely different set of characteristics that does not fit Jon at all.
It is so “on the nose”, so to speak, it cannot possibly be accidental on the writers’ part.
The whole scene revolves around the Northern lords being wrong in the past and is permeated by the sense that they keep on being wrong. There is something “off”.
A dornish Tyrell,
Let’s just name Davos King of Everything and be done with it. Humanity would win 😉
Jenny,
I thought of Aegon too, but Jon will be focused on the WWs, I doubt he will bother with building castles now. Dreadfort is a possibility maybe.
Flayed Potatoes,
Idk, I had seen some suggestions that Bran would seek out Howland Reed first, to back up his visions, but I don’t feel it’s very likely. Bran should reach Winterfell fairly early, but he seems to be travelling at a different speed than the others. It took him 5 episodes to get from BR’s cave to the Wall and within that time Varys travelled from Meereen to Dorne and back, lol.
Sam,
I think you are correct: Sansa is, as Ramsay’s widow, lady of the Dreadfort. I doubt very much she’s willing to move there though. She will probably cede that castle to Jon and/or the wildlings to occupy it.
If I were her, I would command that not a single stone of the Dreadfort remains on top of another… But that is not probably very wise considering the WW menace. 😉
All hail the Onion King!!! 😀
ghost of winterfell,
Yeah I was talking hypothetically but realistically it’s going to be Winterfell
ACME,
What you say about the KitN scene seeming off, I feel the reason for it is that the writers had 2 objectives here, Jon had to be made king and at the same time, Sansa needed to be given a genuine reason to have a grudge at not being made queen, so as to allow for whatever LF/Sansa/Jon drama is to come next season. If they focused on all the right reasons for making Jon King, then it would have made Sansa unsympathetic in the viewers’ eyes if she resented it. This is just a guess, I might be wrong 🙂 .
http://www.ew.com/article/2016/07/30/game-thrones?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter
Season 8 will be the last confirmed
I have nothing to add. Just want to let you know how much I enjoy reading this civil discussion.
ACME,
“had they reiterated all the very good reasons why they refused the call”
Lord Manderly reiterated. He said in that very scene TO Jon: “I didn’t commit my men to your cause because I didn’t want more Manderlys dying for nothing”.
We already know why Glover refused because we had the recruitment scene. There is no need to repeat that in the KITN scene. He just adds that he regrets not fighting with JON on the field.
If Sansa’s approach was validated, they would be saying these things to her. If her approach was validated they would be apologizing to her. She’s smiling at what Lyanna says, but then Lyanna goes around and proclaims Jon king, so obviously her high and mighty approach didn’t work.
ghost of winterfell,
He can just send Meera to bring her father to Winterfell imo and they can appear when it’s neeeded.
Dee Stark,
Thanks! Curious to see if they stick with 6 episodes.
Flayed Potatoes,
It makes me sad !!
Hope they do 7 at least
Manderly admits that everything Lyanna says is true; his saying why he didn’t is framed apologetically.
We’re not saying, incidentally, that the show intends for this to be validating Sansa. Rather, the show wrote two scenes that take completely different approaches to the same issue, and doesn’t really come across like we’re meant to notice. The treatment of the Northern loyalty issue in the KITN scene is totally different from how it was handled in the recruiting tour scenes, right down to Lyanna Mormont suddenly being all “Stark men forever!” when that was most definitely not her attitude when they first approached her.
From the time of the Red Wedding until Sansa’s escape, every character on the show talked about how the North would never forget the crimes committed, how the Stark name would be an instant rally point for Northern opposition to the Boltons, etc. We heard this from Tyrion Lannister, from Tywin Lannister, from Petyr Baelish, from Roose Bolton, and from Ramsay Bolton. The show chucked this idea in the dumpster during the recruiting scenes because suddenly it was inconvenient for the Starks to actually be able to rally men. The KITN scene is the show going back for the “North Remembers!” sentimentality it had been mining in prior years, only to ditch when it actually should have mattered.
Sean C.,
The show does take two different views but I do think we are meant to notice.My interpretation is that yes the north does have that reputation and people believe it so of course characters talked about it that way .They were loyal to a fault and followed the starks for centuries.But when push came to shove they didn’t have the will to blindly follow the remains of House Stark anymore because they had sacrificed too much already.Only a true pragmatist like Davos could see that people don’t want to fight for a loosing side no matter how honorable they are.After the Starks won the northern lords felt ashamed that they didn’t live up to their words even though they had good reasons.So they wanted to make up for it
Jenny,
Thank you.
I way to tired to try and argue anymore….
A dornish Tyrell,
Good point. Makes more sense in the show for the Wildlings to get a known entity like the Dreadfort instead of the Gift.
Sean C.,
Agreed 100%! The show really messed up by building up the whole “North Remembers” and foreshadowing eventual revenge on the Boltons for the Red Wedding only to dump it so they could have another last second save during a fight/battle.
I think it would have been much better to see Jon/Sansa build an army and have Sansa use Littlefingers army (she can be seen playing game here) to smash the Boltons. Instead of the “oh no Jons losing….psych, here’s the Vale” gimmick that was used.
I don’t think it necessarily messes up. Instead, the show portrays the northeners not living to their own expectations (kind of a mythbuster)… Which is differently from the books, for sure.
Jenny,
The most obvious problem with that interpretation of events is the role of Lyanna Mormont, who in the KITN scene is positioned as a Stark uber-loyalist/”North Remembers” type, even though that was not her position when the Starks came to her.
Sean C.,
Well in Lyanna’s view she still was loyal to the Starks.Even though she had her trepidations she took the time to listen and although the ww threat was the final push she did say they have kept faith with the Starks for a thousand years and won’t break it now.So she did keep true to the north reputation.And in that moment she saw that the lords wanted to just go home and ignore the threat and decided to just go hard with the loyalty stuff.
Sean C.,
Oh, she is just a very young and very impulsive girl. No wonder she is worshiping the victor and hersef too.
A dornish Tyrell,
True, that’s definitely a much more positive view of it. 🙂 I’m always a pessimist and it seemed like it was more planning in connecting prior seasons to this one. I may be misinterpreting things thou.
Sean C.,
To be fair to the Grand Ol’ Lion’s political acumen, Tywin had somewhat foreseen that the North may not live up to its hype in the expected way, when he discussed the Red Wedding with his youngest son :
So there was a bit of foreshadowing, back in season 3. The Northern lords’ reaction this season is not entirely out of nowhere.
As for whether the scene was meant to validate (up to a certain point) Sansa, you are right, it is still somewhat unclear. However, like with the “Jon being proclaimed for all the wrong reasons” bit, the whole thing is so glaring I have a hard time believing it could coincidental.
The KitN scene, while glorious and inspirational in many ways, is also permeated by a sense of “doom”. The Northern lords are shown not as those paragons of loyalty they would like to be but as fundamentally fallible people. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but it is there. They are not “special”; they have been wrong in the past, they are wrong in the present, they could be wrong in the future.
The clincher, I believe, is Lyanna’s attitude.
First, in her name-and-shame speech (6.10), she uses the exact same core arguments Sansa mentioned during the Northern tour, hence the Stark eldest daughter’s little smile of recognition. Those arguments are precisely those Lyanna herself did not give a flying fig about when the Starks came to her (6.07). If the episodes were further apart, I could imagine the writers simply forgot but here… Within the span of four episodes, the Bear Cub completely changes her tune on loyalty and basically favourably quotes Sansa without giving her credit. The 180 and double-standard are so manifest I find it difficult to think it is not intentional.
Furthermore, there is the matter of redemption, so to speak. During their initial meeting, Lyanna criticised Jon for being a bastard (as if it were his fault) and Sansa for being twice married (even though women in Westeros very rarely choose who and how often they marry and at least one of those two unions was completely forced upon her by the Lannisters). But, in the Winterfell hall, she “absolves” Jon for his illegitimate birth (how charitable !) but leaves Sansa’s alleged sin unforgiven. The senseless discrepancy is, once again, obvious to a point where I cannot fathom it being accidental.
I think Lyanna Mormont is meant to be the incarnation of the Northern nobility, to a certain extent. All her greatness and her faults are those of the Northerners : the badassery, the fierceness, the occasional bouts of “disappointing” hypocrisy, the jingoistic and somewhat chauvinistic mindset, etc.
It is of course deliciously incongruous because she is a little girl, and a cute one at that. But at heart, she is a bearded, gruff sixty-something bloke. Picture GreatJon Umber with pigtails (or don’t… Such mental imagery may cause seizures)
Like GreatJon, she was the first to use the term “king” when refering to a Stark.
Like GreatJon, she makes badass speeches and is the epitome of cool.
Like Greatjon, she is prone to disrespecting the Starks whenever she feels like it.
Like GreatJon, she may have to be reigned in eventually.
While I do not expect (nor wish for) Ghost to eat any of her fingers, I fully anticipate a showdown between her and a Stark. At some point, Baby Bear (and the whole Northern nobility through her) will cross the line in the snow and she will have to be “corrected” on certain key issues. Just a bit of tough love 🙂
ghost of winterfell,
Even with good reasons, it is probably going to be a tough sell ^^
Unless they’re Tully lieges… Those fish are loyal like nobody’s business. 🙂
Did the houses of Riverlands revolt against the Freys? I thought those who took back RR were only House Tully men. The BF mentioned they were just a few hundred men in there so my impression was that they were only the RR army. Unfortunately for the Starks, there didn’t seem any more WF soldiers left (?) so they needed to ask the other houses to fight for them.
Sam,
In s06e06, when Walder Frey is talking to Lame Lothar and Black Walder about the situation in Riverrun, it is mentioned that the Mallisters and the Blackwoods are in open rebellion against House Frey. 🙂
Apparently, the Riverlands remember… the North, no so much… 😛
A dornish Tyrell,
Thanks! I missed that. They didn’t have that many soldiers in there so I assumed they were just from one house. As for the Starks, 3 houses did support their campaign. Unfortunately, those were the smaller houses. 🙂 Fortunately for the Tullys, they didn’t have their Lord behead the head of a major RL house and didn’t have a bastard son who let a hated clan of another major RL house enter the Wall and settle near their lands. 🙂
The Riverlands are like Davos : they do not make a fuss about themselves, everybody underestimates them and then…
Fear the mighty Trouts ! 😉
That’s true!! 😀
Indeed! 😀
I think the season 7 will be the ultimate season for Sansa where she will need to decide will she be a traitor to Starks or choose family over power. One way or another she won’t play much of a role in season 8.
ACME,
During their initial meeting, Lyanna criticised Jon for being a bastard (as if it were his fault) and Sansa for being twice married (even though women in Westeros very rarely choose who and how often they marry and at least one of those two unions was completely forced upon her by the Lannisters). But, in the Winterfell hall, she “absolves” Jon for his illegitimate birth (how charitable !) but leaves Sansa’s alleged sin unforgiven.
The way I saw it at the time was Lyanna pointing out Jon being a bastard was not meant as personal criticism but more so a practical issue of nobility. House Mormont being pledged to house Stark and yet the two standing before her do not even bear the name. So I don’t think she felt a need to “absolve” Jon of anything really. She saw him try to save his brother, the remaining true heir (or so they thought) and before that witnessed the offer to fight 1v1 to spare other lives, so after the battle she knows Jon has the Stark qualities and is after all the only male heir left, hence, she no longer cares if he’s a bastard. With Sansa, and the North not having all the reasoning behind “why” all they know is she married into two of the families who betrayed her own, and that was a “choice” unlike being born illegitimate.
Thanks for your input dear Ghost – I still disagree on some points, but your view is interesting – and that means the rebellion against the crown but the KITN act, makes Jon and the North a target for KL. I hope KL will be too busy to take action against them!
And totally agree about LF: he’s the direct and urgent problem for the North at the moment and I hope Sansa chooses Jon instead of him!
Though it does feel we all – and most of the characters – are barking at the wrong tree, considering the WW are coming our way as A dornish Tyrell said! 😀
I can’t find a point of disagreement with what you write here, JackSparrow!
Aye, that could and can be a route that Sansa can take to move forward, she has different choices that she can choose from, I wrote about my personal choice for her arc. I have given some thought on the scenario of Sansa marrying SweetRobin, therefore gaining control of the Vale, thus neutralizing LF and leading him to his death. I would definitely enjoy that possibility! 😀
That doesn’t alter what I have written before, nor do I wish to see Sansa act as a mindless puppet for anyone: that would be a serious relapse for her arc. That is exactly what I mean by saying that if Sansa sides with LF that will automatically be a huge plot hole: she’d be going back to being a puppet, and we have seen that she’s not that anymore.
As to her emotional reaction to Jon being a King instead of her a Queen, I’d humbly disagree. Sansa has lived in the world: she knows, as well as most of the Queens in our world at medieval times, that males are preffered when it comes to taking such positions (and she not Dany: doesn’t have dragons/ she’s not fireproof/ etc). Which means that even the most intelligent and capable, must marry their way into a place of power – see Marg for example: she was WAY more capable of ruling Westeros, but she had to marry a King to take part in that power. Sansa knows that, and that’s why she has married those men even if all of them- except Tyrion – were insane. She knows that, so she can’t get angry at them for choosing Jon over her. Yes, she could be saying fook the fooking Westerosi laws, but that wouldn’t get her far or forward either.
Now, she has the chance to marry someone for her own interests. That’s fine by me. But she could also stay as an advisor for Jon – that doesn’t make her a puppet: that puts her newfound skills at work bringing something new and useful to the Jon group. I’d be pleased with whatever route she takes as long as she keeps her inner center healthy. I do not wish her to become a LF 2.0 version, because that wouldn’t show her moving forward, but the exact opposite.
LOL ACME! By all means dare! 😀
I can see your point and perhaps the writers want to use that ‘something’s off’ for some future development. Or perhaps we are too pedantic about it: only 7 ep for next season, where we’ll have the Cercei/Jamie/Dany and Co- Jon/Sansa/LF -Bran/more visions and WW on the doorstep! There really isn’t much scope in opening such a plotline, because I think there’s no time for that. The only place this might come handy, is when – I hope – Jon’s parentage gets fully out or perhaps when it comes the urgent matter of fighting the WW. But I’m rather Meh on the second notion.
That said, I cannot but think that time and again people do the right thing for the wrong reasons (and vice versa). Why would Westeros be any different? You have to appreciate the sense of irony! 🙂
A dornish Tyrell,
You should also take into account that, by defeating Stannis, Ramsay proved himself as a very capable commander, whereas the Freys have always been only a subject for mocking and despise. Therefore the lords of the Riverlands had more reasons to hope for success in fighting against them, than the Northern lords had fighting against Ramsay (though in general the entire retake of the Riverrun was handled poorly in the show).
Inga,
It was just like in the books, only BF dying was different.
Mihnea,
As far as I recall, in the books BF did not retake Riverrun: he went there after the Red Wedding and kept it.
Inga,
He never went to the RW. Robb left him there at RR.
He never retakes it because he never lost it.
ygritte,
You may very well be entirely right.
I felt (and still feel, to be honest) the tone and expressions she used to “describe” Jon’s bastard status (and Sansa’s marriages) during their first meeting were very much mocking. Insulting even. I cannot shake the feeling she was shaming them for those characteristics which, in her eyes, disqualified them somehow.
Everyone in the North knows Ned treated Jon very much like his son; unlike the overwhelming majority of bastards, the White Wolf was raised in his father’s ancestral home where he received the education of a lord. To question his “Stark-ness” was, therefore, not only dismissive but also a direct insult to what all the Northerners know of Ned.
As for Sansa’s marriages, well… If Lyanna Mormont and the Northern nobility generally speaking do not “factor in” the lack of agency Westerosi marriages entail, that is not just naiveté. That’s either willful ignorance or simple hypocrisy. While Bear Island may be a bit of an exception, the North by and large follows the exact same rules as the rest of Westeros : women are “sold” to whomever their male guardians choose for them.
Not only has the North openly rebelled against the Crown, Sansa is in the North and Jaime (the writers) made a point of reminding Brienne (the viewers) that Cersei wants the female Stark’s head on a spike in 6.08… They could have brushed that old grudge under the carpet; instead they reintroduced it out of nowhere.
So, since Daenerys may take a few episodes to reach Westeros and the big White Walkers confrontation will probably be kept in store until season 8, there is some time left for Cersei to try something against the North.
I suppose it all depends on how and why one sides with the former Master of Coin.
If Sansa were to be tricked into aligning with him, then yes, she would be a puppet. Conversely, if she were to side up with him for her own reasons (because their interests converge on a specific issue, because she hopes to achieve something) then I would say it does not rob her of anything.
Lady Olenna sided with Littlefinger to take out Joffrey. They had a common purpose and worked together. I do not feel it made the Queen of Thornes look less “autonomous”.
Aligning with Littlefinger is not, in and by itself, a loss of agency. It all depends on the how and the why.
Absolutely true. Until Cersei created a precedent…
Now there is a woman on the Iron Throne. She is queen in her own right, not because she is a king’s female relative. And she is not “magical”. Yes, she is crazy and dangerous but then again so were Joffrey, the Mad King and many horrible, stupid and murderous male rulers before her. The argument of tradition no longer holds water for tradition, very much like the Sept of Baelor, has been blown to smithereens. It cannot be put back together again. I doubt this coup will be consequence-free, historically speaking.
As for Sansa getting angry or frustrated, well… I doubt whatever negative feeling she may harbour towards the Northern lords would have much to do with not naming her QitN per se (Cersei’s precedent-setting move is still extremely recent and the North might not know about it yet) but they may stem from the lords’ complete and utter disregard for her. During the Northern tour, both Jon and Sansa had to face the rejection, ridicule and dismissiveness of the lieges. But, at Winterfell, only Jon receives their apologies… Thereby confirming Littlefinger’s previous analysis : they are Jon’s army, not Jon’s and Sansa’s.
The asymetry is strong with this one 😉
Unless the writers intend to use the Northern lords as a derailing force, at least for a while. I am of course not saying the Northerners will do it on purpose but they have their own agenda and it may clash with Jon’s, whom they chose without ever really getting to know him or even listening to what he had to say.
He tries to open a discussion about the White Walkers, they reminisce and foam at the mouths about the Red Wedding… Hmm, this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship ! ^^
And, anyway, Sam is the one who’ll inform Jon of the best way to overcome the Long Night (and the dragons, maybe…) While he is at the Citadel, the North has to kill time. What better way to do so than internal struggles ? 😉
Inga,
Very true. But we also have to take into account the fact that the Riverlands are very close to the Crownlands. So, picking up a fight with the Freys (chosen by the Crown) potentially means going head-to-head with the armed forces of King’s Landing. As, indeed, happened at Riverrun. The Freys have (had) impressive backup.
Conversely, the North is remote and isolated. Cersei said so herself in 5.06 : it is very difficult to send southern troops up there. The Northern houses are pretty much on their own.
ACME,
All this love for the Riverlands, you guys do realize that the Freys were supposed to be bannermen to the Tullys right?
WallyFrench,
Ha ha ha ! Very true !
But then again, the Boltons were supposed to be bannermen to the Starks… Nodody’s perfect ^^
(And the Rivermen do not wax lyrical about how super duper loyal they are. They just keep on fishing. Trout powa ! 🙂 )
Inga,
ACME,
Pretty much what ACME said. It’s far more dangerous to rebel when you are closer to the Crownlands. 😉
But, to the fair to the North, Lord Cerwin kind of opposed the Boltons by refusing to pay taxes. He then was flayed together with his wife and brother, leaving his son, the new lord Cerwin submissive to House Bolton (and who wouldn’t!!!).
In the case of House Glover, the Boltons helped them to retake Deepwood Motte and to avenge Lord Glover’s family for the humilliation and mistreatment by the ironborns. Thus, the Boltons ruled the North with a mix of terror and gratitude from the other northern houses. 🙂
But your original assessment is totally correct: the Freys are not the Boltons!! And for that much, the Riverlands lords should be grateful. 🙂
WallyFrench,
ACME,
Not the mention the Umbers and the Karstarks… 😉
ACME,
Yes but Lyanna Mormont would have been very young when Jon was still at Winterfell and might not be aware of how he was raised, other than knowing he went, or was sent to the wall…she did say “I’m told you’re a Snow.” But when coming to Sansa I did detect mocking cause she rubbed it in about her being married to both a Lannister and a Bolton. Having been told the backstory of Sansa betrothal to Joffrey yes it should be understandable but then going on to marry the other traitor’s son, and living in WF with the father who murdered her own brother and then took over her family title and lands and taking on that surname might not sit well regardless, because Lady Mormont would probably not see her own self going along with such an order, if she even believes that’s what it was to Sansa. After all, Mormont knows both Lord and Lady Stark are dead and so who would have the power to “sell” her without consent?
ACME,
I did not get the impression that the Northerners were disregarding what Jon had to say about the WWs at all. When he said their enemy brings the storm, they seemed to listen and accept it. When he told Lord Glover that there will be other battles in the future, he promised to fight with Jon. Sure, they did not immediately start discussing how to face or tackle the threat, but that does not mean they were disregarding Jon. In fact I assume even the Vale men have accepted the truth of his assertions as not one of them raised any question or objection.
I assume you feel the northern lords will turn against Jon? I feel that’ll happen only if Jon’s parentage comes out in the open, if it has to happen.
ACME,
The lords of the Riverlands must have thought that the Crown (Lannisters) were weak. As we can assume the Blackfish took Riverrun after Cersey’s walk of shame. Thus, there were reasons to assume that Lannisters will be too busy with the Sparrows and/or that they will turn on Dorne after Myrcella’s death – it’s like in Hungary in 1956 or Czechoslovakia in 1968. However, the idea that people who retook Riverrun under such circumstances (hoping that their enemies are weak and busy with other problems) would have never surrendered it without a fight and that’s why I say that the Riverrun plot was handled poorly in the show. However, as it was supposed to give an impulse to Jamie’s character development, it served its purpose more or less (just like Dorne in S5).
She is very young, you are absolutely right, however she appears to have quite a few advisors old enough to know. So either they did not tell her and they are bad advisors or they did tell her and she chose not to care.
I understand it may not look good but in what way does that make Sansa any less of a Stark, objectively ? How or why does it change her identity ?
When Edmure Tully ordered his lieges to stand down and let the Lannister men enter Riverrun, they did not question his Tully filiation over his marriage to Roslin… They did not discuss among themselves whether his marriage to a Frey (the daughter of a traitor who took on the Tullys’ titles and lands) and his half-Frey child made him any less of a Tully, therefore less of their lord. His birthright was not washed away or devalued by matrimony. Why should Sansa’s ? (The question is obviously rhetorical 🙂 )
Especially considering that, in this case, she was actively trying to gather troops to dislodge the Boltons, put in place by the Lannisters ! Lyanna may think Jon’s and Sansa’s endeavour was foolish or ill-prepared, that’s fine, but to question her allegiance to her own family… That was uncalled for.
Lyanna herself owes her Mormont identity to her mother’s birthright (Mormonts acknowledge matrilinear filiation); a mother who may or may not have been married (no one knows what Maege did ^^) but who, visibly, did not lose her filiation over it.
As for the Boltons themselves, yes, they did betray the Starks. Just like Tormund did massacre villagers and brothers of the Night’s Watch south of the Wall. Both Sansa and Jon took a bet, her by marrying into the Bolton’s family, him by cooperating with the Free Folk. Jon’s bet paid off, to a certain extent (even though he got killed over it); Sansa’s did not. But the mechanics are the same.
Sometimes, you’ve got to do what you’ve got to do to survive, including shake hands (or more) with the enemy. Otherwise, you turn into Olly and, well… It is not necessarily a good look 😉
Well then, the Baby Bear is in dire need for a reality check. ^^
Which is normal, by the way. She is 10 and does not seem to have seen much of the world outside of Bear Island.
Luckily for her, Lyanna is not the heir of a highly disputed land (on the show, at least; in the books, it is more complicated) so she does not have all the Westerosi lords fighting over it and, by ricochet, her. But if she were, all her growls and her glares would not suffice to get her out of being married off to some random bloke. Her advisors would see to it.
Cersei could hardly be considered weak-willed or powerless yet, even after Tywin’s death, the only way she could avoid marrying Loras was by throwing the Faith Militants at him.
I hate to quote the Mad Queen herself but I believe it is one of her most potent lines : “everywhere in the world, they hurt little girls”. So far, Lyanna has been somewhat spared, which is great, but she should probably be made aware of a few things, just so she does not stumble into the world unprepared…
ACME,
IMHO, it’s much more simple. Both and lordr were looking for excuses not to do what they knew they had to and saught to put the blame on the others. They hardly believed in the things they spoke. BTW Sansa yelled at Jon for the very same reason: to free herself from guilt, not because Jon was not listening to her objectively.
Off topic butt any chance Dario foreshadowed Dany working with Euron by mentioning attacking Old Town from the west…it was the conversation where Dany was telling Dario he must stay in Mareen
ACME,
but to question her allegiance to her own family… That was uncalled for.
Lyanna wouldn’t know the particulars but based on what we know that is true, I mean, it would have been nice if there were a bit more dialogue. IF Lyanna thought that Sansa’s marriages could possibly be an indicator that she’d turned against her family or their interests (which by her tone seems a possibility) there was nothing stopping her from asking follow up questions regarding the matter since as the lady of a great house being petitioned for help she’d have the upper hand there…Would have been interesting to hear what Sansa’s answers would be.
ACME:
[I felt (and still feel, to be honest) the tone and expressions she used to “describe” Jon’s bastard status (and Sansa’s marriages) during their first meeting were very much mocking. Insulting even. I cannot shake the feeling she was shaming them for those characteristics which, in her eyes, disqualified them somehow.]
I think Miss Mormont was irritated by the tone this hearing started with. Sansa totally adressed her like a child. Then, Jon somewhat followed that tone, practically adressing not her, per ce, but her councelors.
It was Davos that adressed solely to her as the Head of the Bear Island. Let’s not forget, that despite being a 10 year old there’s a huge burden on her shoulders: Bear Island’s people are her responsibility. That’s too much for a child, she had to grow up before her time, and I think she wants adults to treat her as an equal, since she’s doing a very adult job. So, you may say that partly she accepted the call, not because the dead are coming reasoning as Ser Davos said, but because he adressed her in the right way and that she mocked Sansa and Jon because they used that ‘she’s just a naive child’ tone with her. 🙂
[ Not only has the North openly rebelled against the Crown, Sansa is in the North and Jaime (the writers) made a point of reminding Brienne (the viewers) that Cersei wants the female Stark’s head on a spike in 6.08… They could have brushed that old grudge under the carpet; instead they reintroduced it out of nowhere.
So, since Daenerys may take a few episodes to reach Westeros and the big White Walkers confrontation will probably be kept in store until season 8, there is some time left for Cersei to try something against the North. ]
Unfortunately, yes, this is an open possibility now. I would definitely rather that KL – in the form of Jamie and Lannister army – stayed away from the North. It would be very unwise for Jamie to do that, considering the heavy winter that’s come. His army can’t survive marching against this weather- even the Northern troops can’t (hence why Jon wanted to move quickly fot the BoB: as himself mentioned, he couldn’t wait longer for more men, because there was the weather urgency).
And if we are free from the KL involvement, the Northern plotline would be more open to other arcs like the WW and Bran, Jon’s parentage and its consequences, getting the Northeners organized for the great war and to whatever Sam finds out at Citadel and etc. And definitely to ending LF’s arc one and for all, if possible. 😀 😀
[ Until Cersei created a precedent… ]
As you very well know, such changes need not only a precedent and lots of time, but a successful precedent and lots of time: I suspect Cercei will not be such example -and time is against her 🙂
[Unless the writers intend to use the Northern lords as a derailing force, at least for a while. I am of course not saying the Northerners will do it on purpose but they have their own agenda and it may clash with Jon’s, whom they chose without ever really getting to know him or even listening to what he had to say.
He tries to open a discussion about the White Walkers, they reminisce and foam at the mouths about the Red Wedding… Hmm, this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship ! ^^
And, anyway, Sam is the one who’ll inform Jon of the best way to overcome the Long Night (and the dragons, maybe…) While he is at the Citadel, the North has to kill time. What better way to do so than internal struggles ? ]
I would definitely hope they find a more constructive way to keep the North busy!
However I do agree with the fact that the Lords may not be that cooperative when it comes to getting organized against the threat of WW. It hasn’t practically been discussed. Even if they are already convinced that WW are back, they would still likely see it as something that might be potentialy dangerous in the very distant future. They will probably not understand the urgency to deal with it here and now, in their lifetime! Consequently yes, there might be some friction on the matter. 🙂
As mentioned before there are only 7 episodes. And we still have lots of arcs that need to meet or close, lots of answers to be answered. I hope that restricted time will be used by the writers wisely. 🙂
[I suppose it all depends on how and why one sides with the former Master of Coin.
If Sansa were to be tricked into aligning with him, then yes, she would be a puppet. Conversely, if she were to side up with him for her own reasons (because their interests converge on a specific issue, because she hopes to achieve something) then I would say it does not rob her of anything.
Lady Olenna sided with Littlefinger to take out Joffrey. They had a common purpose and worked together. I do not feel it made the Queen of Thornes look less “autonomous”.
Aligning with Littlefinger is not, in and by itself, a loss of agency. It all depends on the how and the why. ]
Very much so. But according to what we have seen, LF has tried to manipulate Sansa into siding him again. Every word he said to her was used as means to this end. So, if Sansa believes that she can trust him for his motives towards her, and that she can generally trust him, then she would become a puppet again. The only way to not be his puppet, would be to pretend let him believe that he’s managed to convince her again, while she’s scheaming against him.
Lady Olenna is an entirely different case, and I think we can’t compare Sansa to her. Olenna is one of the most intelligent players in the game and she has played with LF types all her life. She alligned LF for that specific cause and only that, having a place of power already in the game. Furthermore she wasn’t manipulated into siding him, it was a sober, calculated, decision to use him as a means to her own ends. 🙂
Our case now is very different: Sansa has stated LF can’t be trusted. She confronted him for what he put her through. She hated him. If all that disappears because she believed him and trusted him again, then she’s definitely going back to being manipulated. 🙂
Oh, sweet Davos! He was the most sensible one in their council meeting and everyone should have listened to him. I really liked his dialogue then: “I may not know the north but I know men. They’re more or less the same in any corner of the world. Even the bravest of them don’t want to see their wives and children skinned for a lost cause. If Jon’s going to convince them to fight alongside them, they need to believe it’s a fight they can win.”
If only Team Stark had a chance to tell these apparently not-so-loyal northern houses that they could win against the Boltons/Karstarks/Umbers because they did have a massive army of the most well-rested soldiers in Westeros on their side…
This is exactly what Bella Ramsey said was the reason she shot down the Stark sibs at first. 🙂 It’s probably the briefing she got from the writers.
Why should not someone question Sansa’s allegiances? After all this was the person who turned on her family for the Lannisters in book one. She lied and supported Joffrey against Arya because she was engaged to Joffrey. As Sansa herself said, she was a silly girl and wanted different things. She married Ramsay Bolton willingly.
Even now Sansa’s allegiances are fluid. One remark from LF and she is lying about the Vale army and having second thoughts about Jon as KITN. Even now, Sansa has not proved herself trustworthy. By lying about a strategic asset like the Vale army, she has given more importance to wanting the credit of the victory over loyalty to the fighting Northerners.
Lady Mormont is right to have her doubts about Sansa. In fact Jon is the fool here, to trust Sansa after she lied to him. I hope he is more wary of her next season.
There’s a probability this could happen – through the machinations of LF. I expect him to look for a way to undermine Jon so he can install Sansa as QitN. It was his plan all along but Jon, out of the blue, got in the way. I can only think of three possible means for LF to sabotage Jon’s kingship:
1. The argument that he’s a NW deserter. However, the show has swept this under the rug throughout most of part of S6 so I don’t think they’d go this route in S7.
2. The argument that Jon let in the “enemies”, the wildlings. However, the free folk were among those who fought bravely against the Boltons so the north may begrudgingly accept them still.
3. The mystery of Jon’s mother. LF may start investigating to find out who is the mother. If he finds out that Jon is actually not Ned’s bastard, he might rally the North and Sansa to go against Jon. Add to it the fact that Rhaegar is the bastard’s father. The North might “remember” that Rhaegar was the one who “kidnapped and raped” Lady Lyanna, which then led to the death of Ned’s father and eldest brother.
I don’t think the show revealed Jon’s parents just so the audience would realize that Jon, who was declared as KitN right after the reveal, was actually not Ned’s son, which formed the basis for the northern lords to declare him as their king. I think the parentage was introduced as such because it would figure in the northern arc next season. Sure, he’s still half-Stark, but the “proud” north might not be so willing to kneel before the bastard of a hated man in the region. Well, just my speculation and I may be very well off from what will actually happen. 🙂 But if this does happen, I hope it bites LF in the ass. 🙂
Sam,
You’ve made very good points! I do think that Jon’s parentage is going to play a crucial role next season, but I doubt it will have to do with the Northern Lords questioning their alliances. They have already, as you mentioned, disregarded other pressing issues, such as Jon “deserting” the NW and letting the wildlings in… My guess is that LF will try to manipulate the Lords of the Vale (not the northern Houses, they are too wary of outsiders) to quit their support, but to no avail (maybe Sansa has a role to play here).
Regarding Jon’s parentage, and this is me putting muy tinfoil hat, maybe it will be used by the North to oppose Dany when she arrives: “we already have a Targaryen of our own (who’s also a Stark), we don’t need another one from the South”.
A dornish Tyrell,
This is the joy of being unsullied. We don’t know what’s gonna happen next and all we can do is speculate! 🙂 Yours is a possibility. I wonder though what kind of story LF will spin to make the Vale withdraw their support. One thing is for sure: LF will not take things in the North sitting down. He will create chaos, as he always does.
Sam,
LF will surely stir the pot!! Maybe by appealing to the Lords of the Vale’s overinflated sense of honor and pedigree?: “they’ve chosen a bastard instead of the rightful heir!”… Pure speculation, of course… Thanks the gods I’m not one of the writers!!! 😛
Sam,
I too subscribe to the theory that LF will look up Jon’s background and try to use his parentage against him. I also think Bran will be crucial here, especially if (as Ned Stark’s last son) he decides to publicly support Jon and reveal what he knows (with the help of Howland Reed and maybe Wylla). I still think the North will ultimately side with Jon over LF/Sansa.
Oh, you are absolutely correct in this regard ! Sansa and Jon were quite condescending to Lyanna and she had every right to set them straight ! I, for one, would have loved for her to go “Hey, Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum, how about you talk to me as if I could understand long words ? I hold all the cards here so be polite, will you ?” (or the Westerosi equivalent 😉 ) Instead, she questioned their identities, their family affiliation, their very births… That was overly harsh and an interesting omen, especially considering that, out of Jon and Sansa, only the former got an “redemption / apology” in the form of a KitN proclamation.
SiriuslyStark
Unfortunately, yes, this is an open possibility now. I would definitely rather that KL – in the form of Jamie and Lannister army – stayed away from the North.
You are right, they would have no chance in hell in the North. But the Riverlands are up for grabs. With Walder dead, Edmure might be back in charge and, while he has no connection nor expected allegiance to Jon, he may very well be tempted to side with his niece… The revenge of the trout is coming ! Kneel before the fish of thunder ! ^^
SiriuslyStark
And if we are free from the KL involvement, the Northern plotline would be more open to other arcs like the WW and Bran, Jon’s parentage and its consequences, getting the Northeners organized for the great war and to whatever Sam finds out at Citadel and etc..
Until Sam and Bran come back, I believe the White Walkers storyline is at a bit of a standstill. And they cannot come back “too soon” for they know too little to be useful, I think.
Sam has yet to open a book so he is out of the North for a tad 😉
Bran’s understanding of Jon’s true parentage sets up three things : Jon’s “blood-based” claim on the North is tenuous at best; he has a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne; as a Targaryen, he can probably ride and control dragons (I can’t wait for Drogon to lick his precious face ^^). None of these is useful just yet so it can wait a dash longer.
In relation to the White Walkers, Bran’s visions are still too scattered to be of any use : he knows that the Others are “human-based” (which we, the audience, already knew thanks to the scene with Craster’s son), that they come from dragonstone so to speak, that they were created to fight humans, that they turned against their creators and that they are organising… It is still too sketchy for much to be deduced from it. Bran needs to spend some more time on weirwoodtree.com to make a difference
The main question anyone has yet to answer, hell, the main question anyone has yet to ask (Littlefinger would ask it if he knew ^^) : what do the White Walkers want ?
That has always been the flaw with the Night’s Watch’s approach : they mostly see them as some kind of “force of nature” or war machines. However, while they were created as mere weapons of mass destruction, they are obviously sentient, intelligent beings; they can plan ahead and coordinate; they have a language and a strategy; they can broker deals with humans and demonstrate a sense of purpose. They are close to human beings in every single way. So they must want something…
Is their war one of conquest ? Do they want to replace humans at the top of the food chain ? Do they want more lands ? More ressources ? If so, what ressources are we talking about ? What are they preparing for ? Were they reawakened and reinvigorated by the dragons ? Are they meant to fight dragons ? Could they, shock horror, be the “good guys” ?
It would be a delightful twist for the WW to be less of a threat to humans than initially thought and for the dragons to be revealed as a much darker force than originally believed…
Regardless, Bran and Sam need more intel. And in the meantime, there is not much the North can do aside from stocking up on the Valyrian steel and the Obsidian and… Fight among themselves and with others
SiriuslyStark
As you very well know, such changes need not only a precedent and lots of time, but a successful precedent and lots of time: I suspect Cercei will not be such example -and time is against her
If the Northern lords were willing to overlook the rather disastrous and short-lived KitN precedent set by Robb to proclaim another Stark in the exact same circumstances, I am certain they could, if given the proper incentive, be persuaded to give female rulers a shot. 😉
Also, what did Cersei do that was so horrible (by Westerosi criteria, of course) ? She did her own Meereen / Castamere : like Daenerys and Tywin, she annihilated her enemies in as spectacular a fashion as possible and took over. If you’ll forgive me for quoting The Usual Suspects (even though it has very little to do with GOT by and large )
“They realized that to be in power, you didn’t need guns or money or even numbers. You just needed the will to do what the other guy wouldn’t.”
Yes, she is cray cray but no more so than many before her ^^
SiriuslyStark
They will probably not understand the urgency to deal with it here and now, in their lifetime! Consequently yes, there mightbe some friction on the matter.
Absolutely ! I doubt they will be willingly obfuscating but they may fail to recognise the extent of the disaster looming for quite some time and that might have consequences.
SiriuslyStark
Very much so. But according to what we have seen, LF has tried to manipulate Sansa into siding him again. Every word he said to her was used as means to this end.
I agree and disagree here ^^
Yes, every word he said was means to an end and he was clearly trying to convince Sansa of something. However, I would not call it manipulation or trickery because the subject matter and underlying theme are as clear as they get : he basically told Sansa “protect youself and your own interests because just being your brother’s sister might not do it for you”.
He made a case and put forward arguments to defend that case : Jon is Sansa’s half-brother, not her full brother (that is true); Sansa has a legitimate claim to the HQ of the North (that is true); Jon’s army fights for Jon, not for Jon and Sansa (the Northern lords confirmed that by pledging allegiance solely to Jon).
I would liken it to Varys and Tyrion’s conversation in 5.01. Tyrion just wanted to drink himself to death and be done with the whole thing but the Spider convinced him to get back into the game. Was it manipulation ? Not to me, no. It was self-interested advocacy.
We may wonder what Littlefinger’s endgame is. It is definitely something to take into consideration. But just because Baelish is not trustworthy does not make him wrong about everything. If good people can be wrong, why can’t bad ones be right ? ^^
That, I would argue, is actually the core of Littlefinger’s genius : 99% of the time, he is right. And more often than not, he speaks the truth. Maybe not the whole truth (he is strategically selective in this regard ^^) and maybe a very specific form of truth but the truth nonetheless. He only really lies when he is completely cornered.
The fact remains : there is only one thing more dangerous than listening to Littlefinger and that is not listening to him at all…
If only the motto was “The North remembers, but only with a large, non-northern army as backup, otherwise it has Alzheimer’s”… 😉
Again, the level of allegiance the North boasts is close to inhuman in its infallibility. But this is the standard the northern lords choose to embrace and apply to their own selves. It is the quite of self-belief that sways them and can, at times, move them to act. There is no doubt Davos was right to want to inject some life-saving pragmatism into this sentimental quagmire but the lords themselves say a mere call from the Starks should have sufficed…
Quite frankly, I would have preferred for the Northern lords to be less wishy-washy in the KitN scene : instead of being apologetic over their self-perceived failure and misty-eyed over their own credo, they could have stood their ground and defended their previous positions. It would not have cheapened the moment at all; if anything, it would have made it more complex and “real”.
Because at that moment, she was trying to gather troops to retake Winterfell in the name of the Starks, along with her Stark brother ?
So unless someone thought that it was some kind of elaborate double-cross, that she was somehow a double agent for the Boltons and/or the Lannisters… Which would have been loads of fun. But GOT and ASOIAF are, to my dismay, not written by John le Carré 😉
Oh no ! I think you and dornish Tyrell may be very close to the truth here ! Littlefinger, using true knowledge to stir the pot, is very much in the cards, I think.
He knows how prejudiced Northeners and the Vale can be (hell, Lord Royce considered him foreign for having a great-grandfather from Braavos ^^). A Targaryen in charge of the North could make a few people angry…
Credit where credit is due : Baelish may be morally bankrupt but the man is gifted. He always reminds me of Beaumarchais’s Figaro : “Just because you are a great nobleman, you think you are a great genius—Nobility, fortune, rank, position! How proud they make a man feel! What have you done to deserve such advantages? Put yourself to the trouble of being born—nothing more. For the rest—a very ordinary man! Whereas I, lost among the obscure crowd, have had to deploy more knowledge, more calculation and skill merely to survive than has sufficed to rule all the provinces of Spain for a century!“
Sam,
Yes, this seems quite likely. There has to be a reason why Lyanna emphasized Jon as Ned’s son just one scene after his parentage was revealed.
ACME,
I was wondering about this, too! I’m not sure if there are other Frey heirs left other than Edmure’s baby. If none, then Edmure might indeed be back in charge. And if so, I don’t think this is one opportunity that LF will ignore. He’d want both RL and Vale to support Sansa’s claim. There’s not doubt who Edmure will support, of course, as he’d known how much his dead sister agonized about / hated Jon. The plot thickens…
Flayed Potatoes,
The key might be HR – if he’s able to reveal that Lyanna was actually not kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar.
I am just the opposite. I think the the story in the south won’t last too long because obviously the real threat is up north. I am looking forward to Jon and Dany crossing paths.
OptimusCrime,
There’s no HBO Go here in the UK.
Sam,
I think Walder was famous for his many, many, many children, both legitimate and bastards. So, there are quite a few contenders and Roslin’s son, being a Frey only through his mother, would not be the first on the list of potential successors.
However, the very fact that there are so many heirs apparent could play in Edmure’s favour. While the Freys are busy fighting among themselves to determine who gets what, and considering their uniquely inefficient and remarkably idiotic approach to military endeavours, the Tully bannermen could retake Riverrun and, possibly, seize the Twins which would be a formidable strategical advantage (and would tie the all “avenge the Red Wedding” side mission with a nice bow 🙂 )
As for the Edmure aligning with the Starks, well… Even if Catelyn had loved Jon (which she probably would have hadn’t Ned needlessly lied to her… Grrr, Ned !), he still would have had no connection to the Riverlands. The Rivermen owe no allegiance to the Starks whatsoever, unless said Starks are also Tullys.
The question is therefore : how will they feel following a Stark who is not a Tully ? From a purely technical point of view, they cannot quite pledge allegiance to Sansa alone, I think. They have to declare for House Stark as a whole and Jon was basically proclaimed head of that house by the Northern lords…
The plot reaches treacle-levels of thick, at that point ^^
Sam,
It would make a world of difference for Jon, I would assume, to learn he is not the product of rape. But to the rest of the North, it is hard to tell. Even if Rhaegar did not abduct Lyanna, his father did murder her father and brother in a spectacularly gruesome fashion. And Rhaegar fought against what remained of the Starks during Robert’s Rebellion (I wonder what he had planned to tell Lyanna if he had won : “sorry sweety, after my dad massacred your dad and eldest brother, I just had to kill what was left of your family. What a great story to tell our son !”)
Anon,
..and if she told Littlefinger to “fuck off”, It sounded suspiciously like , “fuck me”.
Anon,
I kind of agree with the last thing you said there:).
All innuendo aside:), I think she has muddled, contradictory feelings towards him. Not saying she won’t maybe kill him or have him killed in the end, but I don’t think she feels straight out hate or disgust towards him, as many people seem to want it to be the case.
Time constraint may indeed be an issue but we have yet to know how long each episode is going to be…
It seems that the shooting period is going to be just as long as in previous years which may indicate they are going to have as much material as before. If each of the 7 episodes is 70 minutes long (like this season’s finale was) as opposed to the more common 50-minute-ish runtime, there may not be much difference in terms of overall quantity : 7*70 = 490; 10*50 = 500.
We’ll have to wait and see (and hope in the meantime 😉 ).
All I ask for is more of Sam’s library-induced nerdgasms. I want to see his sweet face lighting up ! ^^
SiriuslyStark
Oh, of course she did had she had to do – and what the other guy wouldn’t. ? But still, if she could ever be accepted as a ruler, she’d have to marry- it’s a man’s world. Even Dany – the dragon-riding, fireproof, Dany! – knows that ^^ ?
That one is a tough one to me…
In regards to her being accepted as a ruler, I do not see why she could not. Power, as Varys rightly pointed out, is an illusion in many ways. If Cersei manages to cast a big enough “shadow”, she will not be contested by her people.
And from what we have seen, when it comes to throwing shade, the Queen is at the top of her game ^^
As for her getting married, well… Marriage in Westeros is mostly intended for two reasons : firstly, to create alliances; secondly, to have heirs.
Who could Cersei possibly ally with ? There is hardly a plethora of bachelors left… Jon is out because he is now king of a completely different state and, even if he were not, Cersei wants his sister dead so that’s a no. SweetRobin ? Poor child ! As if he did not have enough problems ^^(and the Vale already declared for the Starks, so that does not seem feasible). Euron ? Maybe, I guess, but he is not around at the moment.
There are not many potential alliances to be made. Cersei will have to make do with the lands she has control over as of now : the Crownlands, the Westerlands, the Stormlands (I suppose she “inherited” them from her son) and maybe the Riverlands if the Tullys do not take over. Though I would not exclude the possibility of a Reach family deciding they have no reason to keep on obeying Olenna (considering her house is as good as dead) and trying to align with Cersei in hopes of being named Wardens of the South…
As for creating a new dynasty with heirs, I frankly do not know if Cersei even cares at that point… Her fertility was already an issue back in early season 4 so it might be out of the question for purely biological reasons.
It makes sense for Daenerys to think of marriage because even though she is a Targaryen, she is very much an outsider who spent her entire life in Essos so she may have to “marry into” Westeros to look less like an invader, like she did in Meereen. However, I do not believe as marriage would be as indispensable as she thinks it would be…
As for Westeros being a man’s world, I cannot deny it ^^
But 16th-century England was also a man’s world and it did not stop both queens regnant Mary and Elisabeth Tudor from sitting on the throne. And the latter never married…
Considering Cersei just targeted a whole religious group, she walks firmly in Bloody Mary’s footsteps. We just have to wait and see who’ll come after her and play the part of Good Queen Bess. 😉
SiriuslyStark
I disagree on that point, and my reasoning is that Tyrion isn’t the puppet kind, nor was he ever portrayed as one: he is convinced by Vary’s because deep down he wants to be back in the game, he wants to find someone worthy to believe in.
Maybe, deep down, Sansa does truly want some power for herself and not by the proxy of a male relative… Maybe “Warden of the North’s daughter” or “King in the North’s sister” have shown not to be potent enough titles to keep her safe so she wants some land/army/authority in her own right…
Would it be so strange or wrong ? 🙂
The only thing that could make it “wrong”, in my view, would be the means through which she gets that power. If she does so by murdering someone or betraying Jon in a radical, irreparable manner (which she will not do, no matter how much the writers hype the siblings’ rivalry), then yes, it would be wrong. Any thing short of that, I would be ok with.
SiriuslyStark
Sansa and Jon: divide and conquer.
Oh, there is no doubt he wants Sansa to have the North (so he can have the North, by proxy) and, if it takes to remove Jon by any means necessary, he does not care. But we mustn’t forget that he does really have a thing for Sansa, especially when she is in the snow for some reason. It brings out his spontaneity, his carelessness even (as proven by the kiss in the Eyrie’s courtyard). It is like cat’nip to him. 😉
Do I think he was being truthful about his “picture” ? I frankly do not know. But the elements of the picture (him, ultimate power, Sansa) seem pretty believable and consistent with what he has done so far.
As another poster (Summer Child) some time ago pointed out, Baelish fancies himself as a new Rhaegar, if the scene in the Winterfell crypts is anything to go by, and he needs a Lyanna. “How many tens of thousands had to die because Rhaegar chose your aunt ?”, he asked back then…
SiriuslyStark
(OK, I hate the guy, can’t help it!)
Ha ha ha ! Oh, do not worry ! You are very much not alone on this. I, on the other hand, will be quite on my own when comes the time to mourn this slimy, conniving, dreadful agent of “constructive destruction” 😉
Oh, I believe Sansa does want some power… Well, at least Season 5 Sansa did. In the crypt scene that you mentioned, when LF is explaining Sansa why he needs her at Winterfell so when Stannis takes the castle, he can name her “Wardeness of the North”. She starts to say something but then stops and incredulously mutters “Wardeness of the North?”. As if the idea of her wielding power just sank in. I believe it’s the first time we ever see her really considering that idea of claiming WF back to her family and becoming a political agent… That’s why I like that scene so much.
Of course, we know that after the wedding everything goes horrifically wrong.
A dornish Tyrell,
I couldn’t agree more 🙂
“Something” was ignited in that scene and it is more than probable that it is still there, somewhere…
First I need to apologize for any mistakes on my previous post and any other post – I wasn’t aiming to make your eyes pop – but to my defence a) English is not my first language b) I hadn’t had enough coffee c) I’m a newbie in writing here and I haven’t learned how to use all the buttons properly- not yet anyway 😀 😀
ACME: Time constraint may indeed be an issue but we have yet to know how long each episode is going to be…
It seems that the shooting period is going to be just as long as in previous years which may indicate they are going to have as much material as before. If each of the 7 episodes is 70 minutes long (like this season’s finale was) as opposed to the more common 50-minute-ish runtime, there may not be much difference in terms of overall quantity : 7*70 = 490; 10*50 = 500.
We’ll have to wait and see (and hope in the meantime ).
That would be great indeed! I think we’ll probably have a 60-70 running time for most episodes, or at least I hope so!
All I ask for is more of Sam’s library-induced nerdgasms. I want to see his sweet face lighting up ! ^^
Definitely more of that- I can’t wait to see what he finds out in that library!!!!!! (premature hype, I know!)
As for her getting married, well… Marriage in Westeros is mostly intended for two reasons : firstly, to create alliances; secondly, to have heirs.
Yes, that’s exactly what I’ve been thinking – marriage would be a way for her to empower her position. She has casted a great shadow, but she can’t rule only by fear: she needs to get practical. And I also think that if she tries the ‘reign of horror’ way to rule, sooner or later the KL people will rise against her. I think ‘KL’ and Cercei are (and always were) walking on a tight rope – even without Dany coming to get them.
And yes, there aren’t many choices out there – I can only think of Euron as a possibility. Nonetheless, I feel that Cercei will deny getting married again.
As for Westeros being a man’s world, I cannot deny it ^^
But 16th-century England was also a man’s world and it did not stop both queens regnant Mary and Elisabeth Tudor from sitting on the throne. And the latter never married…
Considering Cersei just targeted a whole religious group, she walks firmly in Bloody Mary’s footsteps. We just have to wait and see who’ll come after her and play the part of Good Queen Bess.
LOL I was expecting this one 😀 Very similar cases, I was thinking about it too. Though, Queen Bess was an exception to the rule 😀
The only thing that could make it “wrong”, in my view, would be the means through which she gets that power. If she does so by murdering someone or betraying Jon in a radical, irreparable manner (which she will not do, no matter how much the writers hype the siblings’ rivalry), then yes, it would be wrong. Any thing short of that, I would be ok with.
I totally agree – I wouldn’t have a problem with Sansa having ambitions; it has been shown that she wants more power and why not? I have already mentioned that Sweet Robin would be a great opportunity for her in that regard 🙂 As you say, nothing wrong with that just as long as she keeps to the right means to get what she wants.
But we mustn’t forget that he does really have a thing for Sansa, especially when she is in the snow for some reason. It brings out his spontaneity, his carelessness even (as proven by the kiss in the Eyrie’s courtyard). It is like cat’nip to him.
Yeah, he may have a thing for her, though it is LF – you never know what thing exactly he has for her 😀 If that ‘thing’ proves true, it would be his (only) weak spot. Something that Sansa could very well use against him 😀
Ha ha ha ! Oh, do not worry ! You are very much not alone on this. I, on the other hand, will be quite on my own when comes the time to mourn this slimy, conniving, dreadful agent of “constructive destruction”
OK, Ι will show support to the fellow man, even if that is a LF fan: I promise I will keep one moment of silence in his honour when we’re done with him! (we’ll have the party afterwards 😀 😛 ) Btw Aidan is fantastic as LF, an excellent actor. 🙂
Summerwine and cakes:
All innuendo aside:), I think she has muddled, contradictory feelings towards him. Not saying she won’t maybe kill him or have him killed in the end, but I don’t think she feels straight out hate or disgust towards him, as many people seem to want it to be the case.
Wholeheartedly agree. Something like the Stockholm syndrome! 🙂
Summerwine and cakes,
That’s a big problem for her. The actor had the classic disgust expression: nasolabial folds pulled downward and top lip pulled up – she used words of disgust, but, she went crawling back to the source of her disgust.
She’s like Cersai in the sense that one disappointment/trauma causes her to take actions which lead to further trauma and self-destruction. They weren’t kidding when they let the Blackfish say that Sansa is just like her mother. In some ways, she is like Catelyn too: see the episodes with Cat and Robb in war of 5 kings.
ygritte,
People call other people fat all the time. Why is it surprising that it’s been done to “Sophie Turner”, specifically?
The Internetz says she’s fat. The X-Men people say she’s fat; and, Sophie agrees that she ate too much pasta and was fat. All three entities agree, so, I don’t see the conflict.
However, you are upset with random people on the web. If you’re a women’s rights activst, why not go after the X-Men people, or Sophie herself?
Surely it says so in the handbook?
No problem ! We are many non-native speakers here; I dare hope the others forgive our mistakes 😉
SiriuslyStark
Oh, it is real. Whatever the “thing” is, and George RR Martin has himself said on numerous occasions it is quite unclear and ambiguous, it exists.
A lot was speculated about Littlefinger selling Sansa’s head to Cersei in exchange for being named Warden of the North. But that was the unofficial part of the deal; the official deal, the one King Tommen would have had to know about and sign on was “Littlefinger named Warden of the North as a reward for having helped defeat Stannis”. Sansa’s head on a spike was an arrangement just between Cersei and Baelish… And immediately after he agreed to it, he sought out Lady Olenna to give her (and through her, the Faith Militants) the Mad Queen’s head on a platter.
Whatever it is, it is relatively complex.
SiriuslyStark
Your charity and compassion honour you 😉
SiriuslyStark
Or a Pygmalion effect : a blend of parent/child, teacher/pupil and suitor/lover relationships. Also, quite frankly, who could blaMe her for being just a teeny wee bit curious after she heard Lysa’s vocal approval in the Eyrie ? 😉
ACME: No problem ! We are many non-native speakers here; I dare hope the others forgive our mistakes
Thanks!!! 🙂 (I would have never guessed you are on the non -native speaker category, your writing is excellent 🙂 )
Oh, it is real. Whatever the “thing” is, and George RR Martin has himself said on numerous occasions it is quite unclear and ambiguous, it exists. …
Whatever it is, it is relatively complex.
Indeed – on the other hand everything about LF’s emotional nature is relatively complex, partly because his character must be a puzzle, it’s how his arc serves the story 🙂 And we practically know very little about his past, and about how he became who he is, which makes him an even bigger puzzle.
Or a Pygmalion effect : a blend of parent/child, teacher/pupil and suitor/lover relationships. Also, quite frankly, who could blaMe her for being just a teeny wee bit curious after she heard Lysa’s vocal approval in the Eyrie ?
LOL!!!!!!!! Touché – I can’t argue with that! 😀
Above all, it is long-winded but thank you kindly 😉
SiriuslyStark
Couldn’t agree more.
The genius of George RR Martin, in this case, is never to have made Littlefinger a POV character. So we can only “see” him through the eyes of others and never really know what his mind is focused on.
SiriuslyStark
That’s the appeal of the dark side… 😉
ACME: Above all, it is long-winded but thank you kindly
Μine too obviously, can’t help it 🙂
That’s the appeal of the dark side…
Definitely so! 😀
I would have taken you both for native speakers!! You write quite eloquent and well-thought posts that it never crossed my mind that you were non-native speakers… Kudos to you! 🙂