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Finally, just ahead of the season finale, we have got an update on the current (US-based) total viewership of Game of Thrones.
This piece from BuzzFeed reports that the total number of viewers across all platforms has reached 18.7 million on average per episode of Season Five – so far. To put this in perspective, the record reached by the previous season of Thrones stands at 19 million viewers per episode (which is also the absolute record for any HBO show ever).
Since it takes time to gather all the numbers, the last couple of episodes cannot have been fully counted yet, and of course the finale is still to come. We can therefore predict with some confidence that the average will rise to break the record, thus making Season Five the most watched season to date, once all the data is in.
Great news!
But wait…
You mean all those masses of people that swore off the show because of one ridiculous reason or another did not stop watching?
*gasp*
I can’t believe it… Oh wait, I can.
I know, right? They kept me awake at night, wondering if they’d come back.
That picture though!! That should be the DVD cover tbh
So, if some people said the current season was losing viewers because was awful and D&D were a bunch of hacks making fan fiction, that means these same people now will be saying this is a amazing season and D&D are genius that improved the novels, right? RIGHT? 🙂
No, they will start calling us idiots for liking it.
First of all the first two comments above. Ridiculous and childish. Many people didn’t vouch to stop watching the show, the majority of complaints are on whether things lived up to their expectations or whether or not they made sense (logically). There’s nothing wrong with that, we all have different expectations and different opinions.
Second of all the average won’t necessarily go above last season unless it’s really high for the finale.
In fact calculating it, 21.7 million people have to watch episode 10 to hit 19 million average. It’s definitely possible, but considering Episode 9 didn’t break it, it puts doubts as to whether episode 10 will break it.
Let’s all laugh together at those who predicted a month ago that the show would be canceled, or the show would suffer a budget cut, or the Unsullied would never watch again because Sansagate. You know them. I know them. We all know them.
Darquemode,
Or for every one that quit, 1+ people started watching.
Mustafa. S.,
When can we start laughing at the ones proclaiming that it is nearly universally accepted that there was a huge drop in quality this year?
But wait… I thought the show sucked and no one liked it anymore because fake people had fake things happen to them on a show about a fake world set in a fake time.
My personal favorite were the people who declared they were going to quit watching AFTER this season finished.
You have the freedom to laugh whenever you wish. I find the issues raised in most cases within reason (sure I might not agree with all the hateful comments, but I see why some of them are made).
I find it ironic that in show that breaks the realm of black and white (bad and good, evil and pure, hate and love) and focuses on all the greys, that we come to argue about whether everything is perfect or not, good or bad, hate it or love it.
Mustafa. S.,
To be fair, it says the last couple of episodes haven’t been counted yet, and we know eps 8 and 9 had good ratings. So depending on their numbers, ep 10 might not need to reach as high as 21.7 million.
Mustafa. S.,
I’m pretty sure the number includes a full count of at most the first 7 episodes, not more. I takes a couple of weeks after airing to get all the data in. So a strong show in the last few episodes, not just the finale, can easily get us over 19 million.
Right? What a load of BS that was. Hypocritical got on a whole new level with that. I LOVE IT. Now if you excuse me,I’ll be preparing myself for E3 and the season finalle….the hype is at this point equal to Freeza power level
In that case, it’s definitely possible. I assumed episode 8 was counted and there was doubt about whether episode 9 views had finished counting.
USA figures only?
HBO implied they were going to try to nab the foreign ones also.
Mustafa. S.,
I rarely have issue with anyone liking or disliking any scene, but with Sansa-gate this time around it was different. Reviewers from a number of publications were on national news shows saying they would quit watching or they thought they were done watching due to that scene alone. I thought it was reactionary hyperbole at the time and I still do.
Wimsey,
Never. Because no matter how much you like the show, and trust me, I have loved this season, you can’t deny several storylines (Dorne, Winterfell, and to a lesser extent, Meereen) have had logical issues (no, I’m not a book purist, I’m basing this merely on the show’s own merits, and many Unsullied have noticed some logical inconsistencies as well). The dialogue is, in my opinion, not as cutting as it used to be (I personally favor Martin’s dialogue over D&D’s, but that’s a matter of preference).
Overall, whether it’s plot logic, character logic, or simple logistics in a given scene, it does seem that the quality has dropped quite a bit compared to Season One.
And allow me to reiterate : I still loved the season, and it’s still excellent TV, I just attach a lot of importance to logic, dialogue, character consistency, and the more they veer from the books, the less those aspects of the story are able to shine (not to say the books are perfect, since they clearly aren’t).
I’ve been called an idiot by book purists many times for liking the show ( and no, I didn’t put them down for loving the books). Don’t shoot the messenger.
This can’t be true because all those people swore that they would never watch the show again. One of them was even a senator or something. Her influence is vast and her deciding not to watch a fantasy show on HBO anymore affected all of us very much.
I guess that means that a few hundreds whining book purists have left the show and… a few millions of new viewers now watch the show.
Fewer haters, more lovers. Thank you season 5 !
We have a guy at work who every Tuesday comes in slating the show saying it gets worse every week but has watched every episode ( he hated hardhome lol) I’d like to thank all these idiots around the world for your continued viewership!! Every little helps
D&D are in a position to outline and put before HBO executives whatever they want for the final season, be it split, be it a huge budget increase, whatever…
As long as its within reason and they show HBO what they have planned in all likeliness HBO will give them whatever it is they want to finish up this epic series.
That means we just might see huge epic battle scenes more often (like Hardhome). We will see much bigger dragons and all kinds of cool fantasy elements along with just an increase in scale overall.
All I am saying is at this point its not a question of if HBO will let D&D finish the story, its more like, how big a vision can D&D throw in front of HBO for the final season that HBO would sign off on…
I am pretty sure HBO will….. GO BIG!!!
So for a TV series that’s doing Hollywood scale and quality production, the final season will be even more so.
I doubt they will give massive budget increases, in the end I do not think battles actually bring in that larger profit. One battle a season increases the overal net worth of said season, it will make them more money. If they added a second battle it will be less special and both battles will not bring as much money in.
If they got an increased budget, it would mostly be to add unto other scenes (to increase the networth of the season) and/or for an extended last season.
Actually, I can dispute that. What plot holes have there been in these portions of the season?
“Plot holes” is the word (mis)used by some book purists when they can’t accept a change.
Moka,
True, but more often it is misused as “I would have done something different” or “my subjective take on the character is that he/she would have done something different.” As we know by looking at history, humans routinely do things that other people would not have done or done differently. If it can happen in real history, then it cannot be a plot hole. Also, the history of fantasy is replete with examples of Author X’s Biggest and Truest Fan not having a clue about what the characters actually are like. (See Potter, Harry.)
Given that Mark states that he is not a book purist, his criticism is almost certainly of the second sort as there are no true plot-holes (i.e., cases where the plot depends on X being both True and False) this year. Now, I don’t know what Mark proposes that the characters should have done: but most of the time what people here have argued that the character “would” or “should” have done instead is either: 1) impossible (e.g., “Sansa should raise an army to retake Winterfell”) or 2) more foolish than what is done on the show (e.g., “Cersei should have assumed that the necklace is a fake!”)
Moka,
Right. The term is NEVER used appropriately. Oh, and I didn’t use that term did I ? Hmm.
Nielson ratings compared to last year are slightly down.
Kind of shows how little Nielson matters these days.
Mustafa. S.,
If you ACUALLY read this article, you would have read that ‘the last few episodes’ were not all calculated in.
There are is so little good TV, why be a jackass and rain on this accomplishment?
Mark,
Illogical = plot hole. Otherwise, you were misusing the word logic as nothing but a plot hole can be called illogical in a story. (The one obvious exception is describing a character as “illogical”: but you didn’t do that.) That also is highly probable: I think that “logical” might be second only to “ironic” in misused words!
So, if you do not mean that there were illogical sections of the plot lines, then what did you mean? After all, there was nothing illogical about the sequences of events in Winterfell, Dorne or Meereen.
Mustafa. S.,
“the last couple of episodes cannot have been fully counted yet”. It means they have episodes 9, 8 and perhaps 7 to count and the finale. It seems likely to break the record.
Linda, Ozzy Man and westeros.org will explode.
GoT stronger than ever, even without books. xD
Arthur,
HBO has never been a roadblock to more episodes (the president has gone on record saying he would like 10 seasons). D&D are the ones who are adamant about seven because that’s always the amount of time they envisioned telling GRRM’s story from head to tail (w/out all the side trips and world building). Budget wise, it probably does make HBO looser with the purse strings, but as Kit noted this year, they pretty much get what they need anyway.
rex,
Good.
I would ‘t put Ozzy in the same category as Linda and Westeros.org. Ozzy enjoys the show, he just voices some criticism. I may not always agree, but he’s funny.
The only thing I hope for the ratings is that the live numbers for the finale tops the 8 million for the premiere. It would make a nice bookend to a controversial, exhausting, but ultimately fine season.
Wimsey,
Look, as much as I would (genuinely) enjoy going in depth on my issues and explain my reasoning, I really don’t have the time, and I doubt you would have much interest in my long list of observations, so I’ll just give a few examples off the top of my head. Please note that I said there were logical issues, which is very different from an outright plot hole. In other words most of my comments could probably be dispelled if you tried hard enough to rationalize the show’s choices, and they are mostly minor things, which is why my enjoyment hasn’t been hindered. Nonetheless, I feel the show should hold up to scrutiny, and viewers shouldn’t have to reach in order to explain away the oddities.
First, I found the confrontation between Brienne and Sansa in the Inn to be slightly ridiculous. Granted, Brienne is not the sharpest tool in the shed, but what could possibly possess her to repeatedly call Sansa by her name, with plenty of witnesses who would be more than happy to report back to KL. Given how fast news travels in the show (the Night’s Watch are receiving letters about Dany for some odd reason), it stretches credulity that someone somewhere wouldn’t have heard that there was a sighting of LF and Sansa in the riverlands. Brienne could simply say “I know who you are, and your mother charged me with your protection” rather than calling her “Lady Sansa”. Of course, by the time someone heard about this, LF and Sansa would be long gone, and there would be no way to know whether the claim was true or a lie told in order to obtain a reward. Like I said, this is minor, and can sort of be rationalized. Nonetheless, it seems ridiculous.
Another issue I have, is sailing through Valyria. Yes, I enjoyed the sequence, and we can all say that in show-canon Valyria is far less dangerous and barely volcanic and all that. Except we can’t. Because Tyrion then recites a poem, describing flames so high and hot that dragons burned. And then you rewatch season 2, and you see Quaithe telling Jorah, of all people, that all those who sail past Valyria require protection, as she paints a man’s body with protective markings.
Once again, a minor complaint, and we can say “Oh well, Tyrion and Jorah were sort of sailing in the outskirts of the ruins and not Valyria proper”. Sure. That’s fine. It’s still an awesome scene. But it doesn’t really hold up to the same scrutiny that the first season did.
Third, in episode three, Roose gives LF the letter from Cersei. He says it was sent to the Eyrie, and a rider brought the message to Winterfell. Hmm, so LF told someone in the Eyrie that he was heading to Winterfell ? And instructed them to bring him any messages. Seems like Littlefinger might a receive a lot of important messages, and this rider would just be spending weeks and weeks going back and forth between Winterfell and the Eyrie delivering various letters. Which seems extremely improbable, so LF must have told multiple men that he would be in Winterfell, in case more than one important letter was received within a short span. So now Littlefinger trusts random riders of the Vale with his whereabouts, even though he told Sansa just two episodes prior that he didn’t even want to tell Lord Royce where they were heading, despite Royce’s fierce loyalty to Ned’s memory and his protective attitude towards Sansa, because he doesn’t trust the Knights and Ladies, stableboys and serving girls in Royce’s service. The implication being that they may sell information to people the info needs to be kept from. But random riders who deliver his letters to Winterfell won’t ever be tempted to sell out ? Come on.
Fourth, Jon and Tormund in episode 5. “They need to hear it from you. They need to know the ships they are boarding won’t be torched in the middle of the sea.” Yeah, because Jon would torch his ships (for all the Wildlings know, they are Jon’s ships) with his men aboard (not many, but still). Classic case of bizarre writing just to get Jon to go to Hardhome (which was so phenomenal that this particular nit-pick is greatly diminished, but still, it remains). Why couldn’t Jon have just suggested that he go as well to oversee the negotiations, make sure his men behave, and make his case for peace ?
Fifth, Dany burning the master in episode five. Ok. I get it. Her strategy wasn’t working, the SotH were out of control, she had to do something to get those responsible to fear her. But come on. Just three episodes earlier, she kills Mossador, who is devoted to her, in order to prove the point that she won’t tolerate him killing someone without a fair trial. And then she burns the master without a fair trial. What’s worse, she’s lashing out because of Barristan’s death. Barristan, who insisted that she not kill the guy in episode two without a trial. Now sure, Dany is not supposed to be a great ruler, she has many flaws, she’s hypocritical, and is very whishy-washy in ADwD. Her struggle with her inner Targaryen is also very worthy of being brought up as an issue. The scene still felt odd, because it was a complete reversal with no real justification, and it led to basically nothing, and nobody calling her out on her hypocrisy. It just felt like Dany was being written to fit the requirements of a given scene, and not in a very intelligent manner.
Oh, and let’s not even get into Dorne and the utter mess that is Ellaria and her silly plot. And no, I’m not comparing to the novels. Strictly from a TV perspective, it was a mess.
These are just five examples, and probably not the best ones I could mention, but there are many more. Unfortunately, I don’t have to think about this topic in depth right now, but now you’ll have some idea of my complaints.
Call me King Nit-pick if you want, I won’t deny it. The majority of my issues remain minor, but I don’t like GoT to make me suspend my disbelief more than I already have to considering dragons and wights are involved in the story. I just worry that the more they deviate from a more tightly woven plot, the more such logical oddities will appear.
I also feel like many of these problems result from them forcing the story where they want it to go, rather than trying to write more organically.
And if they wanted to go up to (say) 13 episodes a year, then they would essentially need to add another production crew. That’s basically adding the budget for another show, and GoT is already basically using 3 production crews already. The show’s doing well: but not that well!
That written, I can see the show getting even more CGI intense in the last two years, with dragons, White Walkers, Wights, R’Hllor fires, massive armies, etc. That will require a lot of money for extra people do get so much done in enough time.
Wimsey,
A plot hole is a more severe issue with the structure of the story than something that is simply “a logical issue”. I didn’t say it was outright non-sensical or even illogical per se, I said there are some issues with how the characters (yes, I did mention character) and the story logic flow.
It’s a nuance, maybe one you don’t care for, but I would appreciate you not schooling me on logic.
First of all Game of Thrones, with its issues, is still the best show on TV. Second of all, maybe before you call someone a dumbass next time, go and read the article from the source, which is linked above.
You simply read the interpretation of the writer above of the “source”, you chose not to read the source article then proceed to criticise me. The writer above made the assumption that the numbers for the last two episodes are incomplete (which could be true). But if they were incomplete the averages are flawed, and it could mean that we have already exceeded last seasons numbers (which I clearly stated even in my first post as likely).
Grow up.
Wimsey,
Clearly time and logistics are more of an issue than money or any question of demand: D&D simply don’t have enough time in the day to manage more episodes and maintain the level of quality they (and we) demand. Even this year, the seams showed ever so slightly (Dorne fight scene and the occasional rushed Faith Militant scene).
Ravyn,
Oh I know, I pay attention I know HBO said something recently about them wanting more but not getting in the way of the creative process so if D&D only want seven, then seven it is.
I am just saying D&D are in a very unique position to basically ask for whatever they want, within reason, and HBO saying “Okay, here ya go!” with a smile.
To close out this epic saga, there will be a lot of battles, Dany is going to be riding her dragon raining down fire from above, white walkers are going to be clashing in some epic “The Hobbit” type battle sequence.
I am just stating D&D are in a very high leverage position to outline the final season’s storyline for HBO executives saying we need X, Y and Z to bring you the climatic final season we envision.
And HBO will basically be drooling while signing the checks.
Ahaha, when will you fucking retard book purist stop to come in and say something to doubt the ratings?
Boojam, you always come and say stuff like this. When episode 8 rating was released you said: “but don’t they count the free trial on all paltforms as well”.
For another episode you also said: ” But but, isn’t it the whole viewership and not only the live one. ”
This time you came with this shit.
Now, to give you an example, if they were counting the ratings world-wide, then probably those would’ve been around 60 millions.
Go away hater. GOT>>>>>>ASOIF
“I found” ≠ illogical. I had no real problems with it.
And, as we saw, you might get greyscale or attacked by Stonemen. Jorah didn’t have the protection, and look at what happened.
Human history is replete with examples of people doing things like this. (The Red Wedding was based on one such real example.) Lure the Wildlings onto a ship, scuttle the ship and get to the lifeboats? That sounds like exactly the sort of thing that Wildlings would expect from the Night Watch. Remember, to them, the Night Watch is “evil.” (The chief Thenn basically warns Tormund that this is more or less what is going to happen to them, after all.)
Obviously, LF would have his people able to forward him messages quickly. After all, if he is going to maintain the pretense that he is in the Vale, then he needs to make it so that people sending him messages at the Vale do not think otherwise. Remember, LF has always relied on networks of people that he bribes to get things done. He just makes sure (to the best of his ability) that there is more in it for them to help him than to hurt him.
This is a tactic that rulers have used throughout history: execute a handful of suspected and/or possible rebels just to scare the bejesus out of the others. Machiavelli advocated doing things like this, as opposed to executing all of them on just suspicion or doing nothing at all.
So, I would score that 0 for 5, and I suspect that most of the audience did, too. (Except for the protections around Valyria: as that was mentioned once 3 years ago, 99% of the audience didn’t remember it; those who did now assume that stonemen are the things against which sailors need protection.)
Doran,
I love the show.
Just curious about the numbers outside the USA.
Nothing sinister about it or snarky.
Just curious.
I’ve been critical of a lot of stuff this season…might be my least favorite season so far…but if anyone thinks I’ll ever stop watching that’s ridiculous…I’m not only pot committed at this point but this show is still one of the best things on tv…yeah I may be disappointed but only cuz my expectations for this show are in the stratosphere
Wimsey,
You’re amazing arrogance and disproportionate confidence in your arguments make it extremely unpleasant to discuss things with you. Nonetheless, I’ll give it one last go.
“I found does not mean illogical”. No shit ? Seriously dude, if you’re going to be condescending, try to at least say something that makes sense. I never said that it was illogical because I found it to be so. I precisely framed it as my opinion, because that’s what it is, and unlike you I don’t state things as facts when the are precisely, within the realm of personal opinion.
Oh, and you had no real problems with the Brienne thing ? Fine, that’s your opinion, and it’s such an intelligent one that you didn’t justify it in the slightest or even bother addressing any of my reasonable arguments. Stellar debating skills.
Regarding Jorah, you’re argument is off point. The point is, why would any character within this world consider going there ? To avoid pirates ? Hmm. Fine, I’m not convinced, but as I said repeatedly, it’s a MINOR complaint, and like most of my complaints, can be explained away through some stretch or another.
I never framed any of my criticisms as being anything more than personal distaste for some of the writing, a distaste that did not hinder my enjoyment of the season. As I said. The fact that you take such issue with other people having different standards and opinions than you highlights a very childish protectiveness of the show. I loved the season, but had minor quibbles that you didn’t have. Why should you care ? And why on Earth would you be so dismissive of someone’s opinion ? After all, if it’s a matter of opinion, and not a matter of fact, there is no reason to get worked up over what is basically a minor disagreement.
Regarding LF and Jon/Tormund, your points are fine, and they are noted, but the scenes still felt odd in their writing to me. Yes, it’s an opinion.
Regarding Dany, your point is terrible, because I never said it wasn’t a tactic that could make sense, and I am well aware that it has been used many a time throughout history, and is still used in modern politics. I even gave a few arguments in defense of the scene. I just said that it felt like an odd thing for the character of Dany to do at that specific point in the story, given the points I raised, especially since it led nowhere and nobody called her out on it.
So yeah, your response failed to address my criticisms, which therefore remain.
Better luck next time.
Actually, scratch that. Next time, instead of trying to tell people that the way they felt about a scene in a TV show isn’t valid to you, try not giving a fuck and just enjoy this terrific show, that you apparently believe to be perfect.
rex,
Bahahaha explode!
Linda and the westoros crowd have every right to not like the show. What I find strange is they seem to actively campaign against the show. I find that very childish.
Great news about the ratings. Hopefully they can complete the show in a high note.
Mark,
I could not agree with you more – I love this show and enjoyed this season but I found the entire Dorne writing poor almost to the point of ridiculousness. (I could go into some of the character inconsistencies that bothered me but won’t do that now). Don’t bother arguing with the show purists … They are so strict that they can’t find problems with anything to do with the show.
I’m also going to stop watching after the season is over.
I plan to restart sometime in March or April of 2016.
Alan,
This!
Mark,
Spot On. Debating is much more fun than being lectured.
And yet: Mark: you can’t deny several storylines (Dorne, Winterfell, and to a lesser extent, Meereen) have had logical issues
And, yes, I still deny that there are “logical issues” or that your complaints about those plotlines qualify as “logical issues.” And I further doubt that most of the audience perceived logical contradictions in those plotlines.
Mark: Oh, and you had no real problems with the Brienne thing ? Fine, that’s your opinion, and it’s such an intelligent one that you didn’t justify it in the slightest or even bother addressing any of my reasonable arguments.
It is much more difficult to justify not having a problem with a thing than it is to justify having a problem with a thing. But, sure, I’ll give it a go. Nothing in it struck me as inconsistent with the characters. To the contrary, that is more or less what I would expect to see from Brienne, Sansa and LF if Brienne chanced into Sansa while looking for her. Was the chance meeting improbable? Sure: improbable is far from impossible, and all stories rely to some extent on improbable events. (This is why history is always so different from stories.
But you are assuming that Daeny is a static character. She isn’t: she is an evolving one. The point of this scene is to show you the direction in which she is evolving: she is taking a middle road of a harsh punishment of one likely suspect in hopes of convincing the other likely suspects to reform their views.
As for “calling her out,” who is there to “call her out”? Why would they “call her out”? Would not most of them have just executed the lot of them, anyway? Daario voicing “kill them all” is what most people would have thought: that would certainly have been (say) the Tywin Lannister way of doing things. Moreover, as there are no other protagonists in Meereen at that time, why would they show someone calling her out? That would be done only for the development of another major character.
At any rate, the whole point of dynamic development is to show people doing things that they would not have done before: i.e., things that would have been “out of character” in earlier chapters or earlier stories. If people do not do things “out of character” then they cannot evolve: and you cannot tell a “kill the boy/girl and let the man/woman be born” story such as GRRM told in these two books. This is not Daeny acting “out of character”: this is Daeny’s character evolving.
This whole line is contradictory. “Valid” applies only to thinking and logical constructs: a valid conclusion is one that follows from stated premises. (Even then, the premises might not be sound). “Feelings” and “tastes” never are nor ever will be logical. What we think of things and how we feel about them are two separate things.
Now, plotholes might turn people off of a show: but plenty of shows, films and books without plotholes still are not liked by the audiences. Thus, at most, logical consistency is necessary but insufficient for a show. And, as I stress above, because dynamic evolution of characters necessitates logical inconsistencies in the character – X was true, not X is false – that really is going to apply only to plot, and thus plotholes.
So, you can like/dislike things as you will: that is totally subjective and (often) arbitrary. However, I will call you (or anyone else) out for making incorrect assertions about logical structure. Remember, your original point was that people were not going to like this season because of what you claimed were logical inconsistencies in some parts. However, what you really meant is that you believe that other people will share your subjective views that characters and situations would have played out differently. On that, I will have no problems calling you (or anyone else) out!
My personal theory is that they are simply tired. It’ll be a 24/7 job for 7-8 years. They’ve got to be ready to finish it. This isn’t a criticism — I do not think anyone could keep it up and I wouldn’t necessarily trust anyone else.
What is wrong with you? The dude asked about foreign numbers, which would logically entail a larger viewership. In fact none of your complaints about Boojum’s comments in any disparage the ratings; they all imply that he thinks viewership is larger than reported.
So what is your problem? Are you so eager to be a dick to someone on the internet that you can’t stop and think?
Lol no. The books are still better and will always be better no matter how many times they reboot GoT.
But I’m no purist and I think the show is still amazing and one of the best. Everyone over at that team have done a great job bringing it to life and I understand how much it takes to film and have limited budget which I can respect some changes to fit into a 10hour season.
I’m glad the ratings are still rocking N rolling. For those purist that said they will quit well….
http://media0.giphy.com/media/Rhhr8D5mKSX7O/giphy.gif
Mark and Whimsey….you two must be a LOT of fun at parties. I just adore reading pages of criticism when I stop by!
‘Rape supporters like you’
WTF! What a sick person to say that? Its just a fckn show! A great show but still just a TV show.
A plot hole occurs when characters engage in some Action A, when Action B has better odds of success and fewer downsides or risks. The Winterfell plot in particular was full of gaping plot holes. It was stupid from Sansa’s POV, Roose’s POV, and LF’s POV.
Do you really think LF, sitting in the Vale, would send off a raven to Roose saying “I have Sansa Stark. Would you like to marry her to your son Ramsay”? Of course not. Roose would almost certainly answer in the affirmative, but his likely action would have been to seize LF and Sansa at Moat Cailin, and soon after send Cersei Sansa and a Littlefinger-skin lamp (and a note asking for a bit of help against Stannis…). LF’s “plan” should have ended with his death in E2, and the odds of this were so high and so obvious that he would have never engaged in such a path in the first place. He is not suicidal. Even if he DID get past this point, he should have died in E4. Someone in the North would have been willing to exchange knowledge of Sansa’s new whereabouts for some favor or another from the crown, and ravens are much faster than LFs jetpack. He should have had his head on a pike the moment he arrived in KL. So LF had not one put two nearly-certainly-fatal points to overcome in this plot, and the showrunners just ignored them. That is a gaping plot hole.
Obviously, Sansa has gained nothing from this plot (on the contrary), and it is equally obvious that she could have gained her Wardeness title directly and safely by declaring for Stannis and rallying the North behind him, essentially offering to play the role that Jon turned down. Yet she choose to marry a Bolton, steal underpants, profit?
Roose gained nothing from this either, especially in the TV universe where no Northern Lords seem to exist. Maybe you could claim that it was a long-term play in order to secure the rights of his grandchildren, but in the short term, marrying Sansa to his monster son was a ticking time bomb among the northerners, not a pacifier. And of course, there is an absolute 100% chance that someone (not necessarily LF) would tell the crown about his betrayal, which of course destroys the very rights that he was trying to secure for future Boltons. Roose cannot pubically marry his son to Sansa in order to secure a claim to the North, and yet expect it to remain secret south of the Neck.
The whole Winterfell plot line was a maelstrom of irrationality, but that water is long under the bridge at this point. We may as well enjoy the ride we have, because what is done is done. In any case, a number of the players in this mess are likely to die tonight, resetting the board and hopefully allowing the showrunners to move us towards a more ADWD/TWOW-like plot.
No, not at all. Characters can do stupid things (look at Ned or Robb), they don’t have to always make the best decisions.
And in this example, Sansa wants Winterfell (and has no idea of who Ramsay really is), Roose wants new allies after Tywin’s death, and LF sides with every side (it’s what he has been doing since season 1). So don’t say it was “supid” or that it’s a “plot hole”, it’s just you who can’t have logical reasoning when something is not in the books.
What?!
Roose knows that Cersei won’t and can’t help him against Stannis.
This is nonsense. It is not possible for Cersei to find out about Sansa immediately.
And Varys said in S2 that he didn’t have any informations about the North. What chance does Qyburn has?
Without Sansa in WF, LF wouldn’t get permission to atack.
There are Northern Lords in the show, but they are just extras.
Roose already had allies – the crown. That’s a very powerful ally to have. Now he has none, other than a very untrustworthy LF. That’s idiotic.
There are times on shows and books where people are intentionally portrayed as making foolish mistakes. That’s all fine and good IF it is portrayed that way and it fits into the story arc. But these idiotic chooses were not portrayed that way. In fact, LF was supposed to appear clever, even as he engaged in a plan that in anything even remotely approximating GRRM’s world would have gotten him flayed and then beheaded. Roose is also supposed to be a schemer, and Sansa being collosally stupid is not something her arc needs. This clearly was not a case of the writers trying to create scenerios where characters make dumb mistakes that they either later overcome or suffer from. Rather, it was the writers trying tell particular story and just ignoring or papering over the better alternatives all those involved had.
LF did not need to send Sansa to WF to get this. He could have stayed safely in the Vale, and then made a similar offer to Cersei after the Battle of the North plays out. In fact, it is highly likely that he will do something like this in TWOW. Or, alternatively, if the Lannisters collapse early in TWOW, he can just do it on his own authority.
mau: This is nonsense. It is not possible for Cersei to find out about Sansa immediately.
Why? Ravens take 2-3 days to travel from the north to KL. It is not as if LF/Sansa was hidden. They were pubically received when they arrived at Winterfell, and plenty of people saw both of them. Somebody would say something to someone, and lots of people would have potential things to gain from the crown (like, you know, Bolton’s “Warden of the North” title, not to mention getting hostages back, etc).
There was another plot hole involved with this that I didn’t mention earlier. LF’s reply to Cersei would have been very late. The back and forth on a raven to the Vale would be no more than six days. A raven to the Vale, then a horse to Winterfell, then a Raven to KL would have been over two weeks. Cersei should have been suspicious from the start.
Chad Brick,
If, if , if… So much “if”….
You don’t know, so don’t pretend that you do.
He get permission to atack WF, because Boltons are now traitors, and without Sansa, Cersei would’t have reason to give that permission.
Chad Brick,
Someone would say? And why nobody said anything to Robb and Cat about RW?
Sue the Fury,
Oh yes that guy was a doozy it’s almost as if the show was so bad to him he became emotionally unhinged I hope he keeps his word and stops watching lol but I somehow doubt it