During a recent interview with The Sunday Times, Natalie Dormer defended some of the controversial aspects of Game of Thrones, discussed the fantasy genre’s role as a commentary on real-world atrocities and cautioned viewers from watching the show for escapism.
Dormer, who has campaigned against child marriage and female genital mutilation, admits, “I find parts of the show difficult to watch, but I don’t think we do young people any favors by sheltering them.”
For example, she considers the show’s infamous rape scenes (often committed by husbands against their wives) a potential tool to “start a conversation about the statistics of rape and how much it happens within the family”.
At any rate, Dormer rejects the notion that television is inherently escapist. “All I know is that I turn on the news, and it’s covering a boy drowning off the coast, or children being shown beheading videos,” she says. “The horror of human nature is prevalent in our world, and I appreciate that some people want to turn on the telly for escapism – but if that’s what you want, don’t watch Game of Thrones … I choose fantasy to vent, to process complex political, sexual and social politics at the safe distance of fiction. For me, that’s what art should be.”
Dormer did discuss actors’ lack of created control and that, whatever viewers may think of Margaery, she really has no influence over her character’s actions (a sentiment Iwan Rheon has also expressed). “You sign on the dotted line, give them seven years and don’t get to alter the writing,” she said. “An actor is a conduit to a writer. The message comes from the writing. I can’t – as Natalie – defend everything Margaery does, as that’s not my job.”
Um, it’s an adult show. Young people shouldn’t be watching it to begin with. It isn’t aimed at them. It is on a pay channel and it is up to the adults to censor what their children watch.
Cleverly said. I mean this is the kind of things you want to hear from these people and not all the stupidity and banality that prevails in talk shows with tedious presenters and even more tedious audience.
Hell yeah! Natalie is awesome. If you get offended by got go watch nickelodeon or something like that.
Agreed. People have to option to shelter themselves but it is not a creative person’s duty to shelter the audience from their personal issues.
You “sign for 7 years”, eh? Welp, she’s not dying this season.
RosanaZugey,
She didn’t say that though, you’re combining two phrases. She said you give them seven years. It’s a broad reference to the actors in general, many of whom have signed seven year contracts. The show is allowed to kill them off before seven years are up, however.
Yay! You tell ’em, girl! 😀
Excellent comments all around from Dormer- I couldn’t agree more. Discussions are so vital in order to reduce these problems, and the way that these sorts of discussions come up (rightly or wrongly) is through events in real life, and often television.
Dormer’s often come across as one of the more intelligent and astute members of the cast, and these comments reinforce that view.
there is a right and wrong way to portray and write violence against women. One example of a right way is Mad Max. Hell, Season 2 of the Leftovers portrayed a male rape in a way that made sense with the story and characters. I understand Natalie’s point but she’s purposefully being disingenuous with the censorship implication. Most people don’t rage about GOT’s violence because they want to censor violence, they rage against it because it has gratuitous and has been played for shocks rather than in a way that made sense with the story and characters.
This is true. However, her comment reminded me of Michelle Fairley saying relatively the same thing: “You sign a contract for 3 years…” And well, we all know she died in S3. That’s kind of where I was coming from when I made that comment.
*Standing Ovation*
anon,
She’s 34. By young people she probably means people as old as 18 to 24.
She’s not an idiot though, so she’ll know that teenagers watch the show too; but her comment was probably talking generally about young adults, not specifically underage kids.
KaKa,
That’s the excuse that many people who rage against film and TV violence use to hide the fact that they want to censor violence.
KaKa,
I hear this argument all the time in regard to GoT about them doing things “just done for shock value.” The Jeyne Poole storyline in the books, which is the one Sansa’s character follows in the show is much, MUCH more violent and brutal. How then, is Sansa’s much, MUCH more toned down sexual assault on the show done “just for shock value”? It’s part of the story. If they wanted shock value, they could have followed Martin’s original outline.
I have just found out that Natalie is part of a movement agaist women sexual mutilation. I admire her both as an actress and as a person.
And when that happened?
J Lee,
That argument makes no sense. Scene only done for shock wouldn’t have any repercussions at the rest of the story. It would be there just to shock you and then it would be forgotten
Everything that happened with Theon and Sansa after E6 was affected by that scene.
So it was an integral part of that plot. And I’m sure that that scene will have an impact on both of them in S6.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
ok but i am not that person. i have no issue with violence as long as its done well. don’t purposefully try to avoid my point.
mau,
I agree completely.
It reminds me of something Sophie Turner said at Comic-con last year: “Why was my scene [in E06] getting so much press when so much is happening in the real world and there is, like, no press about it“. And I have to agree with both Sophie and Natalie, because GoT/asoiaf is not there to educate you. It can inspire, entertain, generate discussion but not educate; it shouldn’t, it not its job. It would be like believing you are an expert on The War of the Roses after watching The White Queen.
IMO, there is only one scene that I can remember, the one with Jaime and Cersei next to Joffrey’s body, which should have been handled better and it did came out rape-y and uncomfortable.
KaKa,
Well, I disagree with you that the violence on the show is gratuitous or that it matters if it is. So we’ll probably just have to agree to disagree on that point.
But a lot of people really do use the “I’m not in favour of censorship, but…” or “I’m not a prude, but…” approach to censorship, so I think it’s impossible to state that most of the complaints against the violence in Game of Thrones are simply because people find it gratuitous.
KaKa,
What is your point, then, that the show’s violence, in your opinion, has been gratuitous and played for shocks, rather than in a way that made sense with the story and characters? Do you have examples of where you feel this is not the case?
Many people think the violence depicted does make sense with the story and the characters, although that doesn’t make said violence any easier to watch. I am one of them, and I’m not really one who is overly fond of lots of violence.
Yeah, Jaime’s dagger popping out the back of that dude’s skull when he stabbed him in the eyeball was integral to the plot. It mattered! Also, when a stage hand crouched off camera tossing up buckets of fake blood served to underscore Bjornsson’s message about the Syrian refugee crisis as he hacked some people into little bits.
People who say none of the violence on GOT is gratuitous are being willfully blind.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
A few examples of the violence not being gratuitous are cersei’s WOS, jaime’s hand cut off, oberyn/mountain fight, dany/khal drogo (and i bet some people might even disagree with me on this one)
jaime/cersei sept rape: gratuitous and gross
meryn trant beating up little girls: gratuitous and gross
sansa/ramsay rape: gratuitous and gross
showing a woman getting raped in craster’s keep with her boobs bouncing in teh background: gratuitous and gross
i know that talking about this on here is pretty much like talking to a brick wall, but just saying here that critiquing the show’s violence is the same as censorship is utter BS
Cumsprite,
Totally not because violence depicted realistically looks like, well… real violence, huh?
So, being shown someone being stabbed in the eyeball isn’t real enough for you? It’s not real unless you get to see the knife exit out the back of his skull? Do you know what kind of force it takes to have a blade puncture bone and come out a few inches? Practice on some coconuts at home and get back to me about how “real” that was.
Cumsprite,
Well, Jory getting stabbed through the eye was a specific reference to he and Jaime’s earlier conversation about the Siege of Pyke where Jory explains the scar he bears being the result of the Greyjoys nearly taking his eye out, to which Jaime hypocritically condemns their viciousness. So there was actually a point about Jaime to be made from that scene.
As for a bit of fake blood during a scene in which the sheer brutality and inhumanity of one of the story’s most reprehensible characters is being demonstrated, I’d suggest it’s not necessarily unnecessary.
But you will note that I also said it doesn’t matter to me if the violence is gratuitous anyway.
Why does everyone keep focusing on the Sansa scene? Theon got his genitals cut off for petes sake! Apples and oranges but that seems like something that would come up.
Also, Westeros is a horrible place, this stuff happens, it’s part of the world. You’re free to pick and choose which parts you like, but respect the creators’ decisions whether you find it tasteful or not.
mau,
Claps
Thank you
I don’t get why people think these “violent ” scenes are Done for shock value
They a re all part of the show and integral to the story
If Game of thrones is good at one thing it is the importance of every single effing damn detail on the show
KaKa,
Art imitates life. Which of those things you listed do not and could not happen in life? Those things do happen, most of them with alarming regularity.
So in the end, all you are really saying is, “I wish they didn’t show it though,” or “Setting a realistic scene can leave out the realism if it isn’t specifically a story point and if I find it distasteful.” Which boils down to censorship, not that you are calling for legal censorship, but that you are calling for artists to censor themselves and be more amenable to your sensibilities. Because gratuitous only applies if it offends you.
Joffrey was actually poisoned by his wine, he wasn’t killed by the pigeon pie, therefore the pie was unnecessary. It was gratuitous by your definition (It didn’t specifically move the story to its next point). No one screams about pigeon pie being gratuitous however, because it doesn’t offend them.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Doesn’t matter much to me, either. Show it. Don’t show it. Watch it. Don’t watch it. But to say gratuitous violence doesn’t exist on the show is obtuse. To say that the amount of violence shown on the show serves a greater purpose is just silly.
Cumsprite,
It’s a violent show
Who the eff cares what it’s on there for????
If you (not you specifically, the genera you) don’t like violence you shouldn’t watch such a show
Edit: I just think it’s a ridiculous thing to say for a show that is know. To be a violent show and based on a book that’s even worse
Anyway, great comments from Natalie
People who can’t handle the violence should probably watch a different kind of show. For whatever reason the violence is there it’s going to be there
If it’s in the books (yeah I know) it should be on the show. The world depicted is NOT all sugar and spice and pretty costumes. Look what happened to the Greyjoy….where’s the outrage over that?
Cumsprite,
As an historian, and someone who takes a keen interest in ancient, medieval and Victorian archaeology I can tell you that an battle wound inflicted by a bladed weapon through the eye and exiting the back of the skull is imminently plausible and has historic validity.
Well, Natalie Dormer proves once again that you can be a beautiful woman AND still have brains to go along with all that.
I found her points very well spoken and in a very courteous “matter of fact” kind of tone.
She is 100% correct, GoT isn’t a kid show and if you object to having some very realistic human relationship-type horror shoved in you face just don’t watch. Not everything is rainbows and unicorns…
GoT is set in a world where there are fantasy elements like dragons, white walkers and magic but the true monstrosities, like in reality, come from what humans do to each other.
The fact GRRM, nor D&D or HBO shy away from tackling these realities is one of the reasons GoT is such a success and should remain unapologetic for it.
The fantasy elements have always been just an extra bonus that helps bring all our childhood joyful feelings to surface and it is tied in beautifully with the brutal story of families killing each other for an Iron Throne and getting hundreds of thousands of innocent people slaughtered in the process.
Well, now another element is going to come into play that isn’t for a selfish reason like ruling the land of Westeros…
And that element is Jon Snow trying to unite humanity to defeat The Others…
We don’t (thankfully) have a society-wide problem of people getting their penises cut off that has numerous live problems with how the criminal justice system functions, which is the case with sexual assault. It’s simply different (which even the people involved with the show would agree with; there’s a reason that Iwan Rheon referred to the rape as the worst thing his character has done; it’s a deeply emotional crime in our society).
Reasonable people can agree or disagree on how the show has portrayed violence, and sexual violence in particular, but I think wondering why people aren’t as bothered by some of the more outlandish tortures (even though Theon’s story, for instance, did generate a lot of comment that people found it gratuitous, though for different reasons and obviously with much less vehemence behind it) is a bit misguided.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Orange is the New Black was widely praised for its handling of sexual violence last season, to name one.
KaKa,
Actually if you do a rewatch of all the seasons after watching that Meryn Trant scene , you can see from season 1 that Meryn Trant was showing child pedophile traits and seeing what he did in season 5 with the girls tied it all together.
I thought it was integral to ending trants story
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! You’re right, that was very restrained and tasteful. Totally realistic.
Dormer does. Seems pretty important to her. Me, I don’t care.
gra·tu·i·tous
ɡrəˈt(y)o͞oədəs/
adjective
1.
uncalled for; lacking good reason; unwarranted.
Yeah, I have to disagree. Just because this or that scene are gratuitous in your opinion does not make it so. It is your opinion. Life is ugly; there or no unicorns and elves dancing in the meadows.
But just to humor you, let’s cut all the gratuitous scenes. What’s next? Must we use this foul language , example “Fuck ’em til there dead” (same scene at Craster’s).
Where does censorship start?
This is an adult show.
My favorite question: If you find it revolting, why do you watch?
Sean C.,
So sexual violence is okay on one show but not okay on another? And you can’t argue that they could’ve done without Sansas “violent” scene because that was part of her story – she married Ramsay (whether you like it or not she did) and of course he was going to force himself on her on their wedding night or else that would’ve been out of character if he didn’t
J Lee,
lmaooooooooooo if you truly believe that you can just throw any shit into a story because it happens in life, then i don’t think you understand a bit about good writing and storytelling. when you’re writing a story you don’t just throw in anything just damning logistics and coherency.
My point isn’t that “I wish they didn’t show it though”. my point is that the only reasons these things were added were to “shock” the audiences AND these “shocks” were not earned with how the story and characters had been laid out before. The Red wedding and Ned’s beheading are earned shocks, the Sansa/Ramsay rape was not.
y’all just keep missing the point
Cumsprite,
Dormer was addressing all the fans who cry about the shows violence
Don’t look if you don’t like – it’s so simple
KaKa,
Yes it was
Isn’t it out of character for Ramsay not to rape her?
Kudos to Dormer, always one of my favorites for interviews. The other would be John Bradley West.
Not missing the point, just disagreeing with you. I feel that Sansa’s rape was perfectly placed and set up, and will have consequences later on. I’m not seeing the problem, tbh.
edit: It was actually superior to what happened to poor Jeyne in the books. Jeyne’s rape was a vehicle for Theon’s reformation. Sansa’s rape mattered, because SANSA was being raped. Far more real for me, as a woman.
And when the argumentation fails, this is what we generally get.
Um, I have no idea how you got that from my comment. I was responding to the accusation that critiquing the show’s handling of sexual violence is merely a coded way of saying we shouldn’t see sexual violence at all. Which is clearly not true, because Orange is the New Black was widely praised for its depiction of sexual violence, by many of the same voices who criticized the way GOT handles it. Which indicates that it is not the mere showing of the act, but how it is done, that matters.
This is an inherently subjective issue. You’re free to like the way GOT handled or, and, for that matter, to dislike how OITNB handled it. But it is, to my mind, disingenuous to just dismiss criticisms of GOT’s handling of it as censorship by another name.
Deesensfan,
Precisely none of the criticism of that storyline involved the issue of whether it was out of character for Ramsay.
Cumsprite,
I think one of the problems is that people’s definitions of gratuitous differ.
The scene you mention with The Mountain viciously murdering a bunch of helpless men I would say served a purpose as a demonstration of the monstrosity of the character; especially to highlight the seemingly impossible task of Tyrion winning his trial by combat, since the scene deliberately followed on from Tyrion’s musings on his chances of surviving and who he could convince to fight on his behalf.
Others might see no purpose in that scene or believe it could have been expressed differently.
There are things that I would find gratuitous. For example, since somebody mentioned Theon’s castration, I would consider depicting that on screen as gratuitous.
But in the end, if somebody finds anything about the show gratuitous then they can always change the channel rather than complain.
KaKa,
I was asking for examples of where you feel the violence does not make sense with the story and characters.
J Lee,
Good for you. Try it at home with something that approximates a human skull. Like a coconut shell! Be sure to do it from a standing position. Place the coconut on a stick or something. Putting it on the ground before driving your knife home is cheating. Fill the coconut with something nice and slimy so the blade skitters off when it hits something hard.
Eagerly waiting your report, Mr. Anthropologist Guy.
Even if you are successful (I wager you won’t be), showing optional violence (the blade popping out the skull) on top of something that has already established the violent nature of being stabbed in the eyeball fits the definition of gratuitous to a tee.
So there.
Sean C.,
Yeah, I guess I don’t understand your argument because I don’t see how Sansa scene was poorly handled — and I also think that sexual violence is sexual violence – no matter how it’s handled
I also don’t watch the OITNB show – it’s not violent enough for me – haaaha jokes!
Sean C.,
The common argument I heard , which is what I was addressing in my comment ,was that it didn’t need to happen and it only happened for shock value. Wtf?
No that is not true – it was necassary as part of her story line
KaKa,
You CAN throw anything into a story that helps set the scene. If you imagine that marriage to Ramsay Snow, sexual torturer, would not involve sexual torture, I have to wonder whether you understand cause and effect in story telling. If you marry a baker, he’s going to bake. If you marry a fisherman, he’s going to fish. If you marry a sexual torturer… well…
You’re also disregarding that this rape occurred in the book. The only thing different in the book was the character’s name and the fact that the tv show toned the sexual violence way, WAY, down. Other than that the scene is a translation from the book. Period.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
They didn’t show the actual wedding tackle being removed so it didn’t really happen. A million underprivileged children caught the Polio because of HBO’s restraint.
J Lee,
These people think that D&D wrote Sansas story this way JUST SO SHE CAN GET RAPED
Hahahahah – ridiculous
One of the things Cogman addressed in his earlier post was the criticism (which he acknowledged that he understood) of cutting away to Theon’s reaction versus showing Sansa and what that conveyed about who the scene was about. That’s a depictional choice (OITNB focused on the victim’s face). I’m not saying either view is necessarily right (of all my problems with the whole storyline, cutting to Theon’s face was not high on the list), but that’s one thing that has to be discussed in how shows handle violence.
Sexual violence is like any other aspect of a story; there are a million choices made in how it is done, and you can do it well or poorly. It has been a longstanding critique by many, echoed by some creators like Bryan Fuller (Hannibal) and Melissa Rosenberg (Jessica Jones), that much of the sexual violence on TV is improperly titillating or voyeuristic for the audience. Those aren’t criticisms aimed at GOT in this particular instance, but again, that’s an example.
I love how eloquently and well thought out Natalie’s opinions on the subject is – she is clearly an intelligent woman and very passionate about the show and her thoughts on the matter.
Some people seem to be being very selective in what is deemed over the top, unneeded violence (rather predictably it seems to be stuff that wasn’t in the books.)
It’s a rated 18 TV show in which in the first episode a guy is beheaded, there is a rape, a child is pushed out of a window and the whole little matter of incest. If people were really that horrified by the violence/gratuitous themes they’d have stopped watching at the start.
THE BOOKS ARE NOT THE SAME AS THE SHOW!!!!! This is what I genuinely think people are getting offended at (again….) rather than because of the violence which has been there since day 1
Deesensfan,
Completely agree with this.
Cumsprite,
Hahaha, I appreciate your humor! I don’t need to repeat the experiment to validate the plentiful results in both physical and written history. Let’s also look at it from a cinematography standpoint though. Is it easier to film someone and create a special effect of a dagger going through an eye? Or to show someone going to the attack and then cut to a shot of the dagger having gone through the back of the head, pan back around and ‘Oh look there, it’s already in the eye!’
Sean C.,
Understood:)
But when I watched the scene I didn’t have that effect. I didn’t feel like the focused on reeks suffering. I actually felt it so deep down for Sansa. And I am not the only one in this blog or from people I’ve discussed this with, who felt this way. So I guess It will affect people differently, you found it focus on Reek, whereas me, I felt still focus on Sansa pain through reek, with out showing us a young actress acting out a rape. I actually liked it better the way they did.
Eck,
This
Deesensfan,
I’ve actually heard that argument, along with things like D&D love sexual assault and they wanted to torture Sansa to fulfill a sick fantasy they’ve had and goofy crap like that. It’s unreal how far people will take their anger over a perceived wrong to a fictional character. They lose their minds. Logic goes out the window. In the month after that scene aired I swear more people learned and disregarded the definition of the word ‘gratuitous’ than at any other point in history.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
i already have. read my previous posts.
J Lee,
You’ve got a point. But I am still right, so I can sleep well tonight. Anyway, I don’t care much for graphic violence on TV or in the movies. I’ll still watch it (Walking Dead fan here) though. The part that made the eyeball stabbing good was what Jory said after Jaime stabbed him. He didn’t say something macho or curse Jaime to hell, he asked him to take it out. Chills. Also – realistic.
KaKa,
I agree. Many are missing the point of why some aren’t ok with certain scenes.
Sean C.,
I never suggested that all criticism was or should be dismissed as censorship by another name.
Although, suggesting that a subject matter only be handled in a particular approved manner could be considered a form of censorship.
J Lee,
That’s ridiculous.
First, these are horrible things to say to someone about a fictional character. These men are married and have children and are humans.
Secondly, are you telling me that the show creators would go so far as creating a story for Sansa to be raped, all the while risking the quality of the show or the story itself? Ummmm no. This was thoroughly thought out and the combination of her storyline with some random girl’s story probably took forever for them to perfectly plan out to get Sansa north so as to fulfill her characters purpose in ASOIAF in the best way possible for the show.
Edit: Disclaimer – I did make some assumptions about what may have happened with the show creators but it’s just a logics assumption. These show creators live breath sleep eat GOT 365 days a year as they have said in numerous interviews
There is no right and wrong way… there’s ways you prefer and ways you don’t like. And there are ways that work for some people and ways that don’t. Getting a scene right is what matters, not that you ticked off a check-box while doing it.
Cumsprite,
Yes!
KaKa,
I saw you list scenes you found “gratuitous and gross,” however I did not see you address how those scenes, or perhaps other violent scenes, did not make sense with the story and characters.
Deesensfan,
It’s sad isn’t it? I totally agree with you. Spot-fawking-on!
I am horny
If someone wants to see shock value violence – check out vinyl episode 1 – 1 death scene lol
Deesensfan,
Now I am really horny
J Lee,
Totally
😉
Rygar,
Hahaha
Oh, you!
Me too
Rygar,
at least your bringing in the humor XD
Matthew The Dragon knight,
Haha seriously!
I am fucking drunk. Sorry. Vinyl soon.
Rygar,
Drunk fans are always entertaining, i’ll be watching Walking Dead at 9.
Vinyle I Recorded :p
Rygar,
Bahahahaha gold!!!!
Rygar,
Luckyyyy you! Hahaha
Yup waiting for vinyl
I Agree with you on some level. Leftovers handles “sexual violent” scenes much better. But the things you complain about in Game of thrones I must disagree on, the oberyn death scene, the rape of Sansa, in my book that wasn’t gratuitous at all, still there are scenes in game of thrones that I find gratuitous, but none that you adressed here. For example the scene in season 2 where we saw a men ejaculate on a prostitute and Littlefinger wiped it of her face had no purpose. The purpose of that scene was that we know that littlefinger spy on his girls, that scene should have been shorter.
I don’t mind nude scenes at all, I watched many shows that portrait nude as normal: Leftovers, sopranos, homeland, rome, mad men etc most of the time those scenes had a purpose instead of just showing boobs.
And before people start attacking me like they attacked KaKa, even David and Dan adressed that they will changes the nude scenes in season 6 because the way it has been portrait in the last 5 seasons wasn’t the best way to show those scenes. they even adressed one time that they need put in those scenes because some people watched game of thrones for the nude scenes.
As far as violent goes, I see nothing wrong with the way Game of thrones portrait violent. I saw much more shocking and disturbing scenes with other shows and movies than we have saw in Game of Thrones.
As for Dormer, she’s totally right, I always see game of thrones as a “feminism” show. the way they portait powerfull woman, you don’t see that often on television.
kevin,
Hahahaha like Spartacus?
violence on another level
Sooo…this entire discussion comes down to differing definitions of gratuitous. I’m gonna have to take the side of the relativists.
I mean, you can make a story where even mentioning death is gratuitous. Legend of Korra features a hugely significant cold-blooded assassination, but it’s Nickelodeon so the victim is never even explicitly said to have died. Oh, but then you can skip over to Clone Wars on Disney where a 10-year-old Boba Fett wantonly murders the f* out of dozens of people. The Knick regularly shows surgical scenes that are wildly cringe-worthy, but no one calls it gratuitous because it’s about medicine in 1905. And yet a hospital show like Scrubs makes it through eight seasons without a clear shot of viscera.
My point is that even the line of necessary-vs-unnecessary is subjective, not just the decision to cross it. If the definition of gratuitous violence is violence the audience didn’t have to see, then all violence is gratuitous. Murders, battles, rapes: they can all occur off-screen. The show could even save money if they hired a narrator.
Imagine the camera simply showed the door to Ramsay’s room closing as Morgan Freeman’s voice began, “I wish I could tell you that Sansa fought the good fight, and Ramsay let her be. I wish I could tell you that – but Westeros is no fairy-tale world. She never said who did it, but we all knew. Things went on like that for awhile – castle life consists of routine, and then more routine. Every so often, Sansa would show up with fresh bruises. And that’s how it went for Sansa – that was her routine.”
It works, almost, sorta, until you remember that this is Game of Thrones, where half the goddamn point is that they don’t just show the sausage being made, they stick a colonoscopy camera into the grinder.
Oh, and the “shock value” argument is nonsense. Of-bloody-course they do things for shock value! It’s a shocking story! Shocking stories are great! Ned dying in the ninth episode was shocking. The Red Wedding was shocking. Were people hoping for a violent power struggle that only films its more predictable moments?
OMFG…I will now have Morgan Freeman’s voice in my head at all tense scenes. That is fantastic.
Kilgore Tully,
I think that’s the first mash-up I’ve seen of Game of Thrones and Shawshank. Well done! 🙂
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Hahahaha!!
Same here 🙂 TWD and then I watch Vinyl on HBO GO.
9 weeks my friend and we’ll have our premiere 🙂
Rygar,
Are You brooks ?
Jack Bauer 24,
9 weeks that’s not so bad 🙂
Jesus Christ, its a violent TV SHOW ffs. EVEN if Sansa’s rape scene will not lead to anything, SO WHAT? Westeros is a horrible place, Ramsey is a horrible person, ofcourse he was gonna rape Sansa. And please dont spout all that nonsense that D&D have some sort of sick conspiracy to watch Sansa getting raped. Terrible things happen in this show to everyone and different people deal with it in different ways. Move on.
Yeah 8 more episodes of Vinyl after tonight and then GoT Season 6!
Deesensfan,
I am Andy. Andy Dufresne.
Jack Bauer 24,
So exciting!
Rygar,
Lol! Oh hi!
Ugh. Not the “gratuitous” argument again. I agree with NWQ, Dees, Pigeon…hell, I even agree with GeekFurious!
Thanks, Jack, for the continuous countdown. 9 weeks is not bad at all. And thanks, Rygar, for just being you. 😉
Drat, did we miss a 9 1/2 Weeks reference?
Ashara D,
Right?
🙂
They played the GoT teaser before Vinyl again tonight 🙂
Deesensfan,
Saw bits of pieces of that show, not really my cup of tea. Game of thrones portrait violent events much better and more realistic in my opinion (especially when it comes to the character based suspected why the characters do the things they do)
But still game of thrones isn’t perfect. And that’s what I meant with my previous post. And David and Dan knows that, and what makes them so great is that they do something with it and try to do better next time. No show is flawless. And even with the mistakes the show makes, it’s still one of the best pieces of television ever made.
Gratuitous means given without obligation, or unwarranted, unnecessary. Whether it’s gross or not doesn’t have anything to do with it being gratuitous or not. So lets take a look at the scenes you find “gratuitous and gross”:
Jaime and Cersei-scene: Jaime returned to the capital only to find his sister hardly the woman he remembered and longed for, his mental state isn’t where it should be and he’s driven to this extent by his longing for her. Dave and Dan had hung the chekhov’s gun with Jaime longing for Cersei during his time as a prisoner. They were obligated to show what would happen if Jaime returned to Cersei with the mindset that everything would be as they were as he left. But it wasn’t. Hence the scene we see. If Jaime didn’t act on what he longed for, it would’ve been weird.
Meryn Trant beating up young girls: Have you seen him in the past seasons? He hit Sansa many times, tore her gown apart and probably more without a second of hesitation. One could call it loyal, but one could also say that he showed signs of this long before S5. Definitely not unwarranted in this sense.
As writers (and as Cogman recently stated as such) they went for the Jean Poole-storyline so that they could eventually put Sansa in charge of the North at some point. Doing so put them in the dilemma of having to marry Sansa to Ramsay. They chose not to shy away from what the situation obligated them to show: a rape. The story with the characters involved forced this as the result. Sansa simply wasn’t a player enough to “Tyrion” her way out of it.
Craster’s Women: Same situation as above. For one, the Night’s Watch are a bunch of convicted rapists, thieves, murderers, but bound to an oath. Take away that oath, and they’re a bunch of rapists, thieves and murderers, that suddenly have found themself in a keep full of relatively helpless women. Not showing a rape with these characters would be out of character and the story obligated the writers to show it.
Jack Bauer 24,
yup, I have a new plan for Sundays.
watch the walking dead, then Vinyl, and then to end it all off, re watch Season 5 of game of Thrones again.
the 18th Costume Designers Guild Awards is the Tuesday coming up I believe.
Outstanding Fantasy Television Series
Game of Thrones – Michele Clapton is nominated.
hope she wins, I think this is her last year on thrones isn’t it ?
Deesensfan,
Ooh, I forgot to watch Vinyl tonight….
Yeah April Ferry is the new designer. Hope Michelle wins her last nomination with GoT 🙂
What would you call those metal clasps on Loras’ vest there?
Clasps? Buckles?
Yes, this is super off topic, I know.
sjwenings,
Clasps I believe.
I’m looking at this discussion of violence and I’m baffled as to why there doesn’t seem to be much of a middle-ground here. Both sides have some interesting points.
I’ve found some moments of the show to be a bit much to stomach, and I would rather they had been left off-screen, but I also found some scenes to be handled quite tastefully that others found to be gratuitous (ie. the Sansa/Ramsay scene — I thought it was handled very well). It doesn’t really bother me that opinions on this matter vary. We all have different sensibilities.
But it does seem silly to me when people try to justify EVERYTHING as “necessary to the story.” I mean, to be fair, we never saw Ned get beheaded now, did we? But it being off-screen didn’t lessen its impact. I’d even argue that this moment of violence being left up to the imagination enhanced the moment, as I was able to focus on the story more than reacting to a moment of visceral violence.
Personally, I found the “Craster’s Keep” rape, and even some of the language “f*ck ’em till they’re dead,” to be awful. People will say, “WELL THAT’S THE POINT,” but I would argue that a lot of it could be toned down and I would have hated those villains equally as much, but I wouldn’t have felt like I was dragged in the mud during the process. We disagree, and I don’t care that you feel like there has to be explicit on-screen rape to serve the story, because I didn’t like the way I felt watching it. That doesn’t mean either of us is necessarily wrong.
I also didn’t like Oberyn’s head-squish. That bothered me because 1) in my eyes it looked cartoonish…there’s a death in the pilot episode of black sails where a man’s head is beaten until he dies that would have been much more along the lines of what I would have liked to see, and 2) I didn’t like the way it made me feel.
But I definitely felt what the filmmakers were intending me to feel, so it’s not like I can objectively say they “shouldn’t” have done what they did.
I also happen to appreciate a lot of scenes that offended other people. No one TV series is going to be a perfect fit for anyone, and I’m certainly not going to stop watching. Much like the story sometimes takes directions I don’t care for, I can overlook a lot of the content I don’t care for. People make fan-edits all the time to fit the story to what they like, I can do the same with the content for my own personal repeat viewing, or if I want my wife to watch with me (who is even more sensitive than I). It’s not a big deal.
But to listen to some people it’s the BIGGEST DEAL because the story requires it, and I just think that’s silly. The show runners pick and choose what they show on-screen and how they portray it.
I didn’t like the Red Wedding, not because of the violence being shown, but because the anatomy of it all was toned down so much. I think it would have been a lot more emotional to watch Catelyn bleed out as she realizes that everything has been lost, instead of a quick burst of “waterfall” blood. But I understand why they decided to censor their portrayal of that particular moment of violence. (Keep in mind, the show has had other, more anatomically correct throat-slits, so it’s not like they were just stupid and didn’t know any better.)
Bob,
Careful now Bob, you’re sounding dangerously reasonable and downright common sensical! 🙂
What episode is that pic of Margaery and Loras from?
Bob,
Your attempt at the middle ground is laudable. Really. Pigeon warning you that you’re sounding reasonable is a compliment to take seriously.
That said, I think you dilute your point a bit when you admit that personal preference plays such a large role. You have the most reasonable reaction of those who have a comfort threshold, in that you acknowledge your limit. This is quite different from those who are A. trying to argue that there is a universal line, and that B. it also happens to be their personal line.
And it’s totally fair to say that you think you have a high tolerance for this stuff, but some of it still bothered you, so you think that maybe the show could have toned it down to appeal to a broader audience. Vonnegut convinced me to swear less in my writing (despite me being just horrible in spoken life) by pointing out that there are simply folks out there who are going to dismiss everything you have to say after the first curse. Same principle.
But the show is doing fine. The violence is not affecting viewership. One way or another, more are turning to the show than quitting in disgust. Joe and Jane Nielson do not find the show too terrible, and apparently neither do you, so long as you watch.
You’re entirely correct that some scenes are done better than others, and that after fifty episodes we can’t say the approach to violent scenes has been consistent. But this isn’t a straightforward debate about if the show is ultimately, on the binary, too violent or not. It’s more of an existential thing about the mandate Benioff and Weiss were given, and a literary thing about reaches of narrative and visual adaptation, and a deeply personal thing about the ways we associate and sympathize with fictional characters.
You are what’s wrong not the show. The violence against women wasn’t gratuitous it was expected since the moment we knew that Sansa was to marry Ramsay. What did you expect? Ramsey to be a gentle lover all of a sudden? Don’t be simple. Want to watch a truly disgusting (But masterfully done) rape scene? Try watching Irreversible with Monica Bellucci. The world is not filled with sunshine and fluffy clouds, it can be a horrible and nasty place deal with it.
Cumsprite,
I just don’t get your point with this whole coconut thing…
One thing though.. GAME OF THRONES IS FANTASY
they can do whatever they want with it its their show anyway
if they want a shark to appear out of nowhere they can do that
its just… i dont understand the real reason why critique that little thing??? if you find “Blade popping from behind the skull of person” fake and thus gratuitous, then what can you say about daeny’s ressurection via fire?
Sorry if i don’t really get your point….
I just find the amount of argument about small stuff really SURPRISING…
people are getting weird these days…
And to everyone else there with their GRATUITOUS stuff…
don’t watch if you don’t like.. DONE simple as that…
this season walking dead has been destroying game of thrones. The last two episodes of TWD make GOT look really bad. TWD is taking over and they have also probably 10 more seasons, GOT only 3.
90% of people who complain about that scene are book readers. That tells you everything.
This isn’t about violance or women or whatever. This is about poor, innocent, master manipulator Sansa getting raped.
If you want gratuitous then Cersei’s walk of shame takes the cake, but no one complained. Why? Because it was so in the books. Gratuitous is a little girl getting raped by Ramsey and Theon taking part in it. Gratuitous is when that little girl is raped by dogs. But no one complained. Why? Because it was in the books.
It is a pointless debate, because this isn’t about women being written poorly or mistreated. It’s about changes from the book. That’s it.
Somewhere in another universe the book-purists complain that the writers don’t understand women, are sexist and rapists because they have Cersei doing the walk of shame naked and is humiliated, while in the books she did it dressed.
In another universe the book-purists rage that the writers are rapists and sexist because they sent Jayne too WF too be raped by Ramsey and the dogs.
This debate is pointless because it doesn’t address the real problem purists have with this, not women being mistreated or sexual abuse being shown poorly, it’s simply about changes.
And before you jump on me. I did say 90% of people.
Bob,
I don’t agree on all points with Bob, but it is a well written and reasonable opinion.
At the end of day, there is no ”right way” to portray rape/abuse.
It comes down to each person and what he thinks is done in a respectable manner or is gratuitous.
ion,
Then why aren’t you on a TWD fan-site? I think that’s where people who like and want to talk about TWD go too.
^This^
Or worst, people defending violence and death and labelling as “art”. You know when you live in a sick world when people have erections watching dead corpses.
Anyway, she’s the same actress who said on Season 4 that she changed the scene with Tommen because “it’s gross to prey on a child” and on Season 5 defended Tommen’s rape. How is your paycheck now, Natalie?
Again the word “defends”.
Book purists legitimely asked why Cersei, despicted in the books as thinking of herself as ugly, old and fat, and people shouting her ugly, old and fat, because at this time of the story, she is ugly, old and fat due to pregnancies and overdrinking, was despicted in the show with a good looking double and the first shot of his nude body is her vagina, before even her face. Nothing gratuitous eh?
SlayerNina,
Nina please refrain from replying to me.
I believe your points are a complete and utter joke, combining book-purism and ”feminism” nonsense.
Say whatever you want but please don’t reply to me.
Dany’s resurrecting from fire doesn’t trigger anybody. Blade popping from behind the skull of person could do. And Dany’s resurrection was shoot from the distance. Any time there’s a blade popping from behind the skull of person, you have the shot of the head, the shot on the blade, a bit of blood on camera, and then another shot of the death body if it’s possible.
The discussion is not about the thing itself (unless if the killer is someone like the Mountain or Ramsay, at this time the idea that they are killers are pretty clear to the audience and personally think that it can be called gratuitous), it’s about how and when they filmed to “titillate”. That’s the point.
Mihnea,
I want to reply when you said something false
SlayerNina,
So my opinion is false but yours is right?
You say things I find completly false and sometimes I think you’re a troll, because I find it difficult to believe you actoully think that way.
But I don’t want too derail a thread, so I don’t reply to you.
So please refrain from doing so aswell. My opinion is not ”false” it a different point of view, something you are unable to accept it seams.
SlayerNina,
I’m going to break my promise and reply to this nonsense.
First and foremost, it was Lena who refused to do the walk and wanted a double.
They needed the double to have the same body structure, same walk as Lena, for the CGI too look alright.
Secondly, no the first thing they show isn’t her vagina, it’s her back, then a her face, then her feet, then a full body shot. It’s not the producers problem that the first thing you looked at is her vagina.
Her being naked is the entire point of that scene, what the hell would you want them too film? The birds? The bloody sky?
This is exactly as people said above, you don’t like these scenes, you found them to be gratuitous, so you want them to censure themselves because you felt hurt or uncomfortable watching them.
You are completly ignoring the people who tought those scenes where good and done in a respectful manner, that fits the story they write.
You also blatantly insult these people by saying things like:”You know when you live in a sick world when people have erections watching dead corpses.”
So if I wasn’t outraged at these scenes I’m somehow a monster? Or am I a pedophile if I wasn’t outraged and Merin Trant hitting little girls?
Kilgore Tully,
Well, I thank you and Pigeon both for reading.
I’m not concerned at all about the show having a broader audience. I’d wager that in most cases, those who cannot stomach the content would have an equally difficult time of stomaching the story. Not in all cases…my wife would be an exception.
I know that HBO has shot “censored” versions of a lot of scenes, and if they were to release those it would be much easier to watch the show with her. But I also know if HBO were to release the “censored” versions, they wouldn’t have very many people watching that version…the content is part of the appeal and authenticity of the show, and I get that.
I totally agree with you on this, and that’s why I think the discussion of what does and doesn’t offend people should be had. I just don’t like the way I generally see it conducted. One side says the show crossed some kind of line, another side says that whatever it was had to be shown because the story demanded it. Both rely on — in my view — false assumptions.
The truth is that everyone’s view of “offensive” content is wildly inconsistent. Like any other personal taste it can be shaped by a multitude of different things, and it changes with time. For example, I have a harder time with violent content since having children. It’s just a thing that happens.
I mentioned that I thought that Ned’s death was handled very effectively, because it wasn’t very graphic. I also mentioned that I thought Catelyn’s death wasn’t handled as effectively as I would have liked, because it wasn’t very graphic. These are seemingly opposite opinions, but I’d argue there’s an internal consistency within them, and that the distinctions are important.
Here’s the point. When I’m offended by something I can’t very well claim that the show crossed some kind of line, because it’s impossible to quantify the “offensiveness” of content. Different people have different sensibilities. The rape portrayed in Outlander became too much for me, and I stopped watching it for that reason…yet many on the internet praised it for being “honest,” while expressing outrage at the Sansa/Ramsay scene that I thought was very effective without being offensive.
Culturally, I understand why my view is unpopular, but it doesn’t change my sensibilities. I don’t automatically like a story because everyone else likes it, and I don’t automatically become offended because everyone else thinks something is offensive.
But let’s bypass that for a moment and talk about what I mean when I say something is too much for me. The moment that stands out the most to me in Game of Thrones is Oberyn’s head-squish. It horrified me, and yes — I understand that was the point. But I was left feeling, “that’s really gross,” when I wish I had been left feeling like, “that was a terrible loss!” Granted, I already knew what was going to happen so that may have factored into it. But if it had been toned down I feel like it would have been more effective to the story.
It’s very clear to me that there are a lot of people who disagree with that perspective. They feel like the moment needed that visceral horror, because his death was a horrible thing, and Tyrion’s gotta be feeling even more sick than I did. I’m not saying they’re wrong. But I do think that if there is a plurality of viewers who found it to be “too much,” it’s worth talking about.
It’s not that I necessarily want the show runners to change anything based on my own personal sensibilities. But I do think it would be useful for them to look at reactions and evaluate whether something is coming across as it was intended, and they can make adjustments if need be. And to be honest, I think that the show runners very much intended for me to feel the way I felt, so they probably wouldn’t change anything.
Just like I think it’s interesting to discuss book-to-screen changes, some of which I disagree with, I think it could be interesting to talk about the way certain types of content is portrayed.
We all just need to understand that, like you said, it isn’t a binary discussion. Rational people can disagree about whether something is “too much” or not, and whether something is “necessary to the story” or not.
Mihnea,
Ah, I missed this earlier! Just wanted to say thanks for the nice words even though you disagree, but it seems like we agree on the matter of tastes differing when it comes to the portrayal of rape and abuse.
Not only that, but also fargo, the leftovers and daredevil are much better than GOT
ion,
This is most likely a troll but seriously, the only thing TWD manages to do is make itself look bad every week.
marky23,
I watch both Fargo and The Leftovers, and completly disagree.
They are good tv shows, but nowhere near GOT’s level.
tkk,
He’s a troll. He does this in every thread.
I watched TWD’s first 3 seasons but I gave up in S4, it just doesn’t manage too keep me interested.
They do have around 2-4 good episodes every season but the other ones are pure filler.
marky23,
And that’s your opinion..
and of the majority of people
Sullied by Knight,
i enjoyed last nights episode 🙂
SlayerNina,
seriously stop watching man
marky23,
One stat:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0944947/?ref_=nv_sr_1
Game of Thrones – 9.5/10 – based on over 900,000 votes
The Walking Dead from IMDB
– 8.6/10 – based on over 500,000 votes
Fargo from IMDB – 9.1/10 based on almost 150,000 votes
The Leftovers – from IMDB
7.9/10 – based on barely 33,000 votes
Maybe to you these shows are better, but don’t assume it is also the same for the majority of people
marky23,
Witch people?
I don’t see a Fargo 1:30 min teaser having 20 mil views on youtube.
I watch Fargo and I like it but it isn’t anywhere near GOT. I don’t go too Fargo fan-sites, I don’t look after casting/leaks, when it airs I watch it, that’s it.
I don’t talk with anyone about Fargo, because I know no one who watches it. Tried to convince my wife too watch it but she said she doesn’t like it.
When GOT airs, I have 8 people at my place. Most people I know watch it.
Nothing compares with the excitment of a new GOT episode. And Fargo, no matter how much I like it, can’t even start too compete with GOT.
I don’t think there is a TV show that creates so much excitment, not only in 1-2 countries, but world-wide.
I like Fargo, and I’m glad you like it and enjoy watching it, but saying it’s ”10 times better the GOT” just because you like it more, is quite wrong. That’s your opinion, and not even supported by facts.
Alltough I think you may be trolling, so please refrain to reply to this comment if you are.
Deesensfan,
Thank you very much for those stats!
Deesensfan,
She did. She said very clearly she will not watch S6.
Mihnea,
Good, the fandom is better without these people.
And she still comes here, why? LOL
Deesensfan,
Anger, frustration, just too name a few.
But mostly it’s anger.
You have too understand that these people have read sooo many theories, mostly badly constructed, that they can see the story only 1 way. Anything else is heresy. And they don’t even mean the way Martin wrote those scenes/stories, it’s mostly the way they think the story should go.
Don’t worry tough, it was the same before AFFC came out, back in 2005. Afterwards half the fandom broke away. What you see here is only half of the hardcore book-fandom.
It will be the same with TWOW, their ”theories” will be proven wrong and they will rage when their fan-fiction scenarios are proven to be just that, fan-fiction.
Mihnea,
Lol. WOW!
See I haven’t read the books, so I don’t know about the fandom so much, and have only been here at this site since season 3.
Anyway, key word here is FICTION
Why do people get so angry over these things? Go have a life, breath, relax, and enjoy this fine art. While you’re at it read the news and see what are things that are frustrating and angry.
http://thevipconcierge.com/vipevents/421/HBO-Game-of-Thrones-Season-6-Premiere-After-Party-VIP-Tickets
Season 6 Red Carpet Premeire is April 12th in LA. A pair of tickets go for $4,499!
Jack Bauer 24,
Holy s**t!
Unfortunately I have a prior commitment (mostly paying my bills), so I won’t attend, LOL!
Jack Bauer 24,
it says page not found
but WOW!
I wish I could go lol
Jack Bauer 24,
Fuck me side ways…..
I’d have to sell myself for the amount.
Oh well, the 24th is almost here.
I doubt we are getting a trailer.
Deesensfan,
For me it shows 403 aka forbidden access. – I guess they know what kind of money comes and goes on my bank account…
Jack Bauer 24,
So close to the actual premiere. This year they are pushing back everything
http://www.thevipconcierge.com/vipevents/421/hbo-game-of-thrones-season-6-premiere-after-party-vip-tickets.aspx
Hahaa, that was funny. ?
Deesensfan,
+1
Agree with you totally
H.Stark,
Don’t they normally have a UK premiere prior to the US one?
Abyss,
hahahaha!!!!
They have included Petyr Baelish as one of the actors 🙂
Jack Bauer 24,
No – that amount is for ONE ticket – you are required to buy both tickets for over $8,000! Guess I’ll have to skip it this year?
ghost of winterfell,
I sense a deep conspiracy here.
What if scenes are created to have a shock? It’s television it has to be like that. The books are full with violence they are there to describe the moment and shock, the world of a social is violent and unfair, deal with it. …
Cumsprite,
Jaime killing Jory with the knife to the eye, showed you that he was a cold-blooded killer, see the look on his face after the act. People like you always want to be extreme about everything, having shocking moments is not a negative, even when it doesn’t advance the plot, but that moment showed how easy Jaime could kill someone with no remorse, especially when they both had a nice moment earlier that season, talking about fighting along side each other.
damn it, how many stupid and useless comments for 4-5 sentences some actress said which needs no commentary, cut the bullshit
where is the trailer, people are climbing on walls, dont know what to do with themselves
Deesensfan,
Don’t laugh! I tunneled through VPN just to check and I can access the site just fine that way, but if I use my normal IP I’m blocked. I tell you, they know I don’t have that kind of money to blow on movie tickets. 😀
Yes, and it’s unfortunate, as it could be an interesting discussion if it didn’t have that subtext.
…and then not even that, because it’s all too subjective for a discussion.
ghost of winterfell,
Oh, that’s funny. Hope Aiden doesn’t mind. 🙂
ghost of winterfell,
Last year premiere in London was 4 weeks before season started.
Abyss,
haha trust me you are not alone my friend hahaha
The Season 5 Red Carpet was March 24th last year, 18 days before the premeire. This year it is 12 days before the premeire, so it’s only a 6 day difference.
Yeah London premiere was March 18th and LA premeire was March 24th.
Cumsprite,
I actually tried it with a dagger. I didn’t manage to get all the way through the first time, but my second attempt was a lot more successful. I don’t know what kind of knife you were trying this with, but my replica dagger definitely made it easier than doing it with a kitchen knife. I imagine it’s because of the acute taper and rigid blade.
Pretty fun experiment anyway, albeit maybe a bit dark.
Blade popping from behind someone’s skull is the best thing ever. This also shows how sharp a Valyrian steel blade is: it cut someone outside its own reality! I have an advice to give you. Build a temple to yourself to reach happiness if you can’t burn it down.
H.Stark,
Jack Bauer 24,
They must be having a London premiere this year too right? If so, it will be held probably around the first week of April. The first reviews should be coming out then.
No offense but how could you keep watching this show after how shitty season 5 was. LOL. The books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the show. Also there are at least 20 tv shows right now that are much better than this shit show.
Thank Christ someone’s willing to stand up for artistic freedom againts the finger wagging moralists.
alins tat,
And yet here you are little troll on a Show fan-site.
troll? telling the truth is trolling? Do you want to lie and make you feel good ? Get over it, this show is shitty and a insult to the books.
One of Roose Bolton’s 20 good leeches,
The law of averages: there’s one in every crowd.
Speaking of the law of averages, last night’s TWD was really good.
alins tat,
Then why are you here? Go too book forums.
From what country are you from?
alins tat,
And you want to know this because..?
I bet my ass that you are from a third world country. I’m from finland btw.
alins tat,
A troll and a racist. Glad to inform you that you will find a warm home in Westeros.org.
I’m out.
Does it matter?
Go watch the twenty shows you think are so much better.
It is baffling that book purist complain about the show, yet they watch every season.
Do you see the irony?
let me guess, you are from bulgaria?
You know, there’s all this Walking Dead excitement happening right now and strangely, even after watching it, don’t care.
I like Natalie Dormer, but The Forest was a bad career move. Didn’t it go straight to DVD pretty much? I wish she made better movies.
HotPinkLipstick,
Yeah I tried to get into it again but I just can’t.
Watching it feels more like a chore. Feels like I’m forcing myself to watch it.
Lustrous hair so very pale…
with this I can relate with you…. walking dead makes GOT looks like a shakespeare work.
Jesus Christ, can we get some sort of limit on the number of posts by the same people in a day???
Pigeon,
Stop trying to CENSOR ME! It’s your subjective opinion that my posts are too graphic! My use of punctuation is not gratuitous$%^&*(*&T^….??,, It’s just the right balance.
#FreeLipstick!
THAT’S YOUR OPINION! BUT IT’S OBVIOUSLY WRONG!!! Here are 25 points that refute it even though they aren’t related to the initial statement! Jdhdjfjdjjskskudjf shock value arblegarble agency hfooooooey poor writing thbbbt unecessary!!!!! I’m not talking to you! Don’t you dare not respond, ya wanker!
*runs away flailing arms and knocking over wildfire in chamber pots*
Pigeon,
You FILL YOUR CHAMBERPOTS WITH WILDFYRE? Or…do you produce wildfyre when you sit on a chamberpot? I must know!
Wait wait, Literature 100000001, Sansa, unnecessary, Sansa, lazy writing, Sansa, Big Five, Sansa, Stannis is the one true chamberpot!
You dirty responding responder of responses!
Hike your skirt nancy your slip is showing. This hand wringing about TV violence is rubbish.
Ack! Of COURSE I produce wildfyre, do I look like a gold-dumping LANNISTER?!! I will eat all the chickens and burn this misinterpretation by hacks into the ground! Mmmmmmph something to do! Blather Blather SJWS neener neener make it all about Theon argle gargle where the **** is Winter????
Don’t you dare utter another word – continue!!!!
alins tat,
there is no place for you here.
just leave
Pigeon,
LOL too funny ladies
Pigeon,
Burn it to the ground? Like Stannis burns daughters? Jon Snow/Stark/Targaryen for the blood of King of Crows of the North whose watch has ended!
Bibble trailer, yada yada, book purist, wine, foot fetish, Theon’s cock, 20 good Walda babies!
And the coup d’kickass, Lady Fucking Stoneheart.
*stands atop the Wall looking down while listening to the sounds of Sam porking Gilly and wondering if it’s supposed to be titallating*
Note to self: Do not feed a troll
Lord Parramandas,
so true, but sometimes its so hard to notttt
hahaha
I bet Mihnea’s dad is stronger than your dad though! And way more rugged and handsome!
The following is a Public Service Announcement:
If you are pissing wildfire, or feel as though you’re pissing wildfire, please visit your local doctor. They have antibiotics for that.
http://www.clicksandclients.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/the-more-you-know.jpg
Mr Fixit,
LOL
Stannis and Shireen and Ned and Syrio are totally still alive because we did not see anyone bowling with their heads or coating them with bbq sauce dammit!!!!!!
LSH however, will ALWAYS just be a pez dispenser! SHUT IT!!!!! Blither blithering blitherface!!!!!
Jon wargs into Gilly’s body and is now scarred for life!!!! UNNECESSARY CONTENT!!!! D&D WANTED THIS TO HAPPEN!!!
*runs to bathroom crying, green glow commences*
You don’t seem to know how skirts work. Why am I not surprised?
Anyway, I think this statement from Dormer is a little naive:
““The horror of human nature is prevalent in our world, and I appreciate that some people want to turn on the telly for escapism – but if that’s what you want, don’t watch Game of Thrones …”
If people did this, she wouldn’t have a job.
There is nothing wrong with PEZ! Pez is tasty!!! (If you like chalky sugar that turns to paste in your mouth.)
OOoOoO…PASTE. Rhaegar was a window-licking paste-eater with a myopic world view! Lyanna lovehated him and was kidnapmarried him!
Punctuation!&^%$%# Arguments!!!
Aerys’ wildfyre urine caused Dany to be crazybritches! Daario is Urinon!!!!
Jon resurrects as a FAT PINK MAST@!@!@!!
*does the troll dance of REASONS*
alins tat,
You are either a troll, or an embarrassment to the Finnish educational system. I’m from a third world country, too, and I visited Finland. Happy to say that you’re not typical of the wonderful people I met there.
“Dormer, who has campaigned against child marriage and female genital mutilation”………. Alrighty then!
Looks like we are definitely needing a S6 trailer ASAP……..
alins tat,
Bruh I can relate with you about season 5 not being the greatest in the series thus far but c’mon now stop it with that there’s 20 shows better than GoT nonsense. GoT has set the bar extremely high for itself #1, and #2 if you bring up shows that are considered GOAT’s, name one that didn’t have 1 lackluster season.
Abel,
More kilt blowing and less Mance wannabe, please.
Mr Sprite, my word! *giggle*
Pigeon and HotPinkLipstick
SOMEONE has got to be the voice of reason about these parts. Thank you to the two of you for putting it all into perspective. After all, how could we doubt the word of a bird that defecates green fire or a cosmetic sold at the 5 & dime for two cents? Enough with yer trailer park trashin’, yer shouting at the wind about the best candy on earth, yer both STANNIS HATERS!@!@!@!, yer both secret card carrying members of the SJW’s and ya know it, I have the video to prove that one of ya brought deviled eggs to the last meetin’ and the other of you thought you were too cool for school to bring anything but ya did eat all the eggsiesss my preciousssss.
So here is my advice….one of ya go suck eggsies and the other check your ingredient label as I am sure it reads *produced with animal byproducts*.
Game of Thrones has been a waste of my time for five years, but I am still going to continue watching and reading the comments of the inane and justified and those who love them.
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That’s okay, I will show myself to the door now. *runs*
Five and DIME? TWO CENTS? I’ll have you know that I am a Christian Louboutin Beaute Satin Lip Colour at NINETY BUCKS A POP. *flips hair dismissively*
*scuttles over to Pigeon to talk smack about JCDavis*
*snort laughs*
This. This right here.
But people do refuse to watch Thrones and shows like it because of the sex, violence, etc., and yet Dormer is in no danger of losing her job to poor ratings. Really, a nearly opposite statement is true: if Thrones was your classic escapist fantasy, then it would have nowhere near the audience or critical acclaim that it does. Yes, people do refuse to watch a lot of these cable TV series because of the violence, sex, etc. However, if there was a market for pure-escapist epic fantasies, then it would be exploited. As MTV is showing with Shannara, escapist fantasy does not appeal to a big audience. A big part of what makes many of these Cable TV series both popular and acclaimed is that there is an audience for people who want to see how characters can get chewed up and spat out, and then try to salvage themselves: i.e., just as real people always have to do to some degree or another at some point in their lives.
Omg!! Why are trolls even allowed here?!
And people find the Show´s violence gross but not the books´??
Wimsey,
Right. That’s escapism. If people stopped watching TV for an escape, we’d be down to Sesame Street reruns and NOVA on PBS.
Oh, and hot local weather girls.
The books are the books and the show is the show. :{
My bigger (actually biggest) problem with the complaints against GoT violence is that I’ve been scratching my head trying to figure out what show complainants were watching during Season 1 (and 2, 3, 4). I mean… yeah the show is disturbing. Yeah, it shows a lot of violence, sexual and otherwise. It’s also not a show that turned on a dime overnight and started doing this out of nowhere. Have people actually watched the first episode of the entire series? We’ve got some nice beheadings and incest and nudity and a non-consensual wedding night, and the near murder of a child. It’s… all there. I mean, watch it and be horrified, sure. Watch the beginning and say, “no thank you!” if it bothers you that much. But the show’s always been honest about who/what it is. It was all, “Hey guys – this be the life we ’bout. You in?” from Day 1. That someone gets to hour 45 of this and THEN says, “This is why the show is terrible and should be ashamed of its portrayal of violence and women, and violence against women, and violence in general and this is also why it’s evil and Satan, etc.” … well, that situation puzzles me, and makes me laugh just a bit. Not because no one should be offended, but because those people should have been offended way *earlier*.
Cumsprite,
Your username does not go well with margaritas. :O= = =
You seem to be equating escapism with entertainment. And yet books, shows and films that are deemed escapist are panned for it, whereas books, shows and films that do get popular and critical acclaim almost never are deemed escapist. (There are, of course, a lot of non-escapist storytellings that get panned for other things: after all, there is a lot that one can do wrong when trying to tell a story!)
Thrones really is not escapism, either in books or on screen. There are lots of realistic horrors and realistic moral/ethical dilemmas that the audience has to appreciate to get the story. The point is not to make you feel that it would be grand fun to ride horses and kill orcs all day, and then drink ale in a friendly tavern at night while on a quest to find another magical relic! (Instead, it should make you feel: “Man, I am glad I do not have their lives!”)
Thrones is fantasy though. It is by definition escapism. You can argue until you’re blue in the face about the moral human dilemmas you see here and there threaded in the story, but the reality is even those are mostly outliers (aka should I kill 100 at a wedding or 1000000 on a field of battle -you are presented with that daily, I’m sure!).
Not that many Sansas or Aryas that have all our family decimated and try to revenge the murder of our whole family. Or shoot an arrow through our parents! And definitely we do not ask if it is an abomination to warg another human! Or if we should feed the Harpy to the dragons or put them on crosses.
I’m not sure why is this such a sore point for you? Is it that hard to accept you watch an extremely complex fantasy show for entertainment and escapism? You can argue degrees of escapism if you want to compare with other fantasy shows that are tamer and completely lack any human dilemmas, but otherwise it’s still escapism.
And just because it is fantasy doesn’t mean they cannot get critical acclaim! You show an extreme bias against the genre. You are singlehandedly trying to put all fantasy in a mold that you consider crappy. And Seven forbid one of them gets critical acclaim because then we quickly have to reclassify it! We cannot have the genre evolving, because OMG! It’s overlapping and detracting from “real lit”. It won’t work. Sci fy, speculative and fantasy lit is evolving.
Hmm, I always succeed in ranting when it comes to this subject. Maybe I should never touch it.
Well, except here’s a random definition of escapism:
“Escapism is mental diversion by means of entertainment or recreation, as an “escape” or dissociation from the perceived unpleasant, boring, arduous, scary, or banal aspects of daily life.”
So if you don’t think GoT ‘is’ escapism, you surely would agree that it is entertainment? Which is and/or can be used as a mental diversion, an escape from real life for an hour?
When I want to block out the world, I read. So reading is escapism to me. And a book is the tool. I think the same could be said of television and a particular show.
Dormer has an intelligent and sophisticated understanding of her job as an actor. A refreshing perspective, seriously.
Pigeon,
This. Also, forget escapism, which is problematic as you describe, but the line between fantasy and non-fantasy is a blurry one. Take something like Breaking Bad. Heisenberg’s odds of making it are fantastically low, as low as Frodo’s odds of destroying the ring. Gus Fring and Mike are supernaturally able plotters and fighters, as capable as Aragorn. Yet Breaking Bad is supposedly gritty and real, while Tolkien is supposedly an escapist fantasy. It’s all in how this stuff is sold to us.
kit_hepburn,
Because it isn’t the violence that bothers them. It isn’t violence against women that bother them.
It’s changes from the books that truly bother them. Look at some crazy people trying to say that they somewhat made Cersei’s walk of shame gratuitous, when it’s near identical.
If it’s the depiction of abuse that bothers them, they would have been outraged by a little girl getting raped by dogs in the books. But they aren’t.
If Sansa had been raped by Ramsey in the books, then they would have been outraged if she didn’t get raped in the show.
They are outraged that 10 years of ”theories” and speculation where proven wrong.
That the story didn’t went the way they wanted or the way the taught it will go.
There will be the same outrage once TWOW will come out. The same way it was when AFFC and ADWD came out.(Unlike some people I remember this all too well)
Of course like Mr. Fixit said, there was always a minority that disliked GOT for it’s depiction of sex/violence, but these people also have a problem with the depiction of sex/violence in the books.
Only when outraged book-purists joined them did their cries become louder.
Nevertheless they still are a tiny fraction of the viewers/readers.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I know this is a bit old, but I was reading the Byran Cogman article and noticed one of your comments. Here is a video of Game of Thrones with the Happy song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAVPHq-BN8k
FreeParking,
Thank you! Nymeria Warrior Queen have mentioned this, but I haven’t seen it yet. This video makes GOT seem such a jolly place. And cuffed Tyrion, dancing, is adorable 😉
Mihnea,
I also think the problem is the last two books, which a lot of these people have spent a long time defending. Readers who found those books lacking complained about Aegon/Arianne/Brienne’s quest, Sansa sitting on her ass in the Vale, Tyrion’s long journey, Dany’s repetitive chapters, and the show in a way justified those complaints by changing these things. So Sansa doesn’t at the Vale but moves north, and the show gets attacked. Sansa is raped instead of Jeyne, and the show gets attacked. etc.
TormundsWoman,
Shhhh. An evening of GOT is an evening of quiet reflection where we ponder the whys and wherefores of LIFE. If you are entertained, maybe this is not the right show for you.
Wimsey
Usually I am in total agreement with you, but your explanation of escapism is exactly why I watch GoT’s. Books are great, but there is something about seeing a book realized larger than life a few feet in front of your face.
On Sunday’s during the season. I shut off the phone, turn off the lights and wait for the music to start and after 5 seasons, the music still pulls me right in and away from everything else about me. A tsunami could be headed my way and I wouldn’t know or care. I find that often I am wide eyed, holding my breath at what is happening in front of me. No other television show did that for me.
Example: I think my favorite show in a long time was HBO’s John Adams. I ended up reading the very dreary book, have it on DVD and recorded. Yet, from the opening of John Adams riding on his horse through the snow on a freezing cold Massachusetts night, it grabs me, BUT…I am not wide eyed and breathless. I don’t shut off the phone or turn out the lights. It is just great television, for what I like.
GoT’s is my way one hour a week to totally escape from who I am and what I do and what civil convention allows. And I am sincerely unapologetic about it. Fantasy will do that…great fantasy will do that every time.
/2 centavos
Hate to derail this thread with actual information, but George says he’s going to be reading something from Winds at MystiCon.
http://grrm.livejournal.com/474434.html?thread=24030274#t24030274
Don’t yet know if it will be something new. Wouldn’t it be something if he read the next Jon Snow chapter?
HotPinkLipstick,
It would be great if GRRM read anything new from TWOW. I hope some of the fan leaving in the same country will be there and inform the rest of us about the content. I myself would be contented with Stannis’ death.
Oh the burning of Shireen and the death of Stannis. Those would bre great.
HotPinkLipstick,
“Truth be told, I need a good con just about now. I am tired and I am stressed, and I am so so so sick of the toxic rancor that more and more seems to characterize the internet.”
toxic rancor?
He goes on in the comments to say he’s talking about the Internet in general, not anything directed at him. And bro, if you’re in the US right now, the political rancor is nuclear.
HotPinkLipstick,
The question was whether he will be reading something from Winds or Fire and Blood? What is Fire and Blood? Is he writing something else related to the ASOIAF world?
I wonder how tempted GRRM is to release the Jon resurrection chapter before the show airs. I don’t really think it will happen though
HotPinkLipstick,
Would be nice to get something new.
But he did this at couple other cons, reading chapters he already read or released.
My bet is on the Sansa chapter.
So this isn’t reason to get too hyped. After all he can’t release too much, his publishers wouldn’t like that.
ghost of winterfell,
Yeah…I suppose I’m just wishful thinking. He’ll probably read something from a side tale or another chapter of Dany and her diarrhea adventures.
ghost of winterfell,
No way he’ll do it. That’s way too big of a moment. If he does read something new, then it would be something like Sansa’s chapter or Mercy.
No spoilers or huge moments.
FreeParking,
What a great thing to find on my first check-in of the day! Thank you so much. 🙂
HotPinkLipstick,
Mihnea,
I don’t think he will do it either. Mostly because reading that one chapter in isolation would lose much of its impact. But there must be some temptation on his part to do so 🙂
ghost of winterfell,
If I had to guess, my money would be on a Sam, Cersei or Aeron chapter.
Another book he has planned to write. Like the Silmarillion, but centered on the Targaryen kings.
Oh, okay thanks
I thought he was done with cons?
I can’t believe he took the time to respond to someone who was concerned about his single finger typing speed. They’re nudging him from every angle. :/
I frivolously hope the PoV chapter he reads at the con is entitled “Ghost.” The interwebs shall howl in the wind…
Re-watched Season 5 again…STILL GREAT!!!
TheMannis,
This very much
Yes I’m bored, but I found this amusing.
Mihnea,
Unless he did it just to CB the show…
Costume Designers Guild Award winner: Game of Thrones (Michele Clapton) for Outstanding Fantasy Television Series.
Well Deserved win.
Nice! Congrats Michelle and thanks for all of your hard work. We’ll miss you 🙂
Jack Bauer 24,
yup, really happy she won it for her final year on thrones, a nice good bye present for all her amazing work. 🙂
Henry Gordon,
He will hurt himself and the books in the process.
Mihnea,
Of course. And I’d be surprised if there wasn’t an anti-cb clause in his contract.
There’s an interview from Liam Cunningham pretty much saying the same old.
http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/television/tv-news/game-of-thrones-will-return-bigger-badder-bolder-and-naughtier-liam-cunningham-34480909.html