As usual, it doesn’t take much for people to twist a Game of Thrones-related interview out of proportion these days. Frankly, I’ve seen a lot of outlets repurposing George R.R. Martin’s new interview with The Guardian into clickbaitish, misleading headlines. And that’s disappointing because it’s really a thoughtful and interesting discussion with the author who is frank about his relationship with his work, fandom and the inadvertent effect the show had on his process.
“I need more hours in the day and more days in the week and more months in the year because the time does seem to go very fast,” Martin admits to The Guardian.
There were a couple of years where, if I could have finished the book, I could have stayed ahead of the show for another couple of years, and the stress was enormous…I don’t think it was very good for me, because the very thing that should have speeded me up actually slowed me down. Every day I sat down to write and even if I had a good day – and a good day for me is three or four pages – I’d feel terrible because I’d be thinking: ‘My God, I have to finish the book. I’ve only written four pages when I should have written 40.’ But having the show finish is freeing, because I’m at my own pace now. I have good days and I have bad days and the stress is far less, although it’s still there… I’m sure that when I finish A Dream of Spring you’ll have to tether me to the Earth.
He’s also taken a step back from the internet because of Game of Thrones, and the possibility of fans influencing him. “At first I was very flattered and I’d go on message boards and think: ‘Oh, this is cool, they’re all really excited.’ But then I began to think: ‘No, I should really steer clear. I don’t like the fact that some people have figured things out that are correct, and I don’t like the fact that other people have figured out things that are wrong but that could influence me too.’ So I took myself out of all that and let fans have their theories, some of which are right and some of which are wrong. They’ll find out which when I finish.”
The author however appears to maintain a positive attitude toward fans and the massive emotional reactions generated by his work- and the show based on it. “I’m glad of the emotional reactions, whether to the books or the television show, because that’s what fiction is all about – emotion. If you want to make an intellectual argument or persuade someone, then write an essay or a piece of journalism, write nonfiction. Fiction… should feel as if you’re living these things when you read or watch them. If you’re so distanced by it that a character dies and you don’t care, then to an extent the author has failed.”
Visit The Guardian to read the original complete interview which covers much more and is worth the read!
Sandor!
Sarah Hughes is a very good journalist. She did the regular Guardian recap articles on GoT throughout the series (often having to submit them within a very short time of viewing the episodes). Always entertaining discussions in the comments, and Sarah would frequently respond there. I’m pleased she got the chance to interview GRRM.
Interesting tidbit from The Guatdian interview of GRRM:
… does he have a favourite scene where he felt the writing really hit home? I ask fully expecting him to mention one of the most famous moments, the Red Wedding, say, or Ned Stark’s shocking death in the first book.
There’s a long pause before the surprising answer comes. “I remember there’s a speech that a septon [the Westerosi version of a priest] gives to Brienne about broken men and how they become broken. I was always pretty pleased about writing that.”
Ten Bears,
Lol, and of course they took that scene out of the show, though I suppose it was sort of reworked with Sandor and Ian “tits and dragons” McShane.
Dear George,
if the stress of the series ending wouldn’t push you enough to finish the books, then I doubt we’ll see any version of ADoS.
This frees us to complete the book in our heads the way we want to.
Thanks for doing this service to us.
Your devoted fans.
LOL
“The way in which no one spoiled the Red Wedding is one of the biggest stories in the history of television because there were literally millions of book readers who knew what was coming and they gave nothing away. Instead, they did something which I didn’t expect either – they recorded the shock and dismay of their loved ones.” He laughs.
This reminds me of the interview he did in the Season 3 special features where George talks about how D&D took one of the darkest moments in ASOIAF (the Red Wedding) and made it darker (killing off Talisa and her child)… then he proceeds to chuckle. Hahahaha. I do remember those videos as well – not just regular reaction videos from fans, but specifically from book readers who knew what was coming.
And of course his favourite moment is the Septon Meribald speech in AFfC. I think he mentioned it as one of his favourites in another interview as well. I know it’s also one of my favourite ASOIAF passages. ICONIC!
It seems that Mr Martin is being more gracious than some of his uber-fans. (I said SOME not all).
I don’t really want to pick apart the statements of Messrs. Benioff and Weiss because that has been done a lot over the last three months, but I am doing that to a small extent because I had a thought – we are not sure whether the statement about the Dothraki being affected in “The Long Night” was a mistake or a lie. Well, people connected with the series “lied” about Jon being dead permanently between seasons 5 and 6 of the show and I can’t remember any complaining then. They may have been imprecise in their statement about forgetting about the Iron Fleet but is that a serious offence? I once told a work colleague (meaning I thought she had nice hair) “You’ve got a nice thick head” – I did manage to remember to say “I meant a nice thick head of hair” – there is quite a difference in meaning. Other contributors to this board may always be perfect in their speech but I will own to making bloopers sometimes.
Ok, apart from joking.
How genious must you be to create your own bibliography for the novel you’re writing? Not in the sense of being smart, but creative and imaginative and at the same time excruciatingly desperate to fill in the gaps that only exist in your own mind and no one else’s. Because let’s face it, ASOIAF is a complete world; it didn’t need Dung and Egg, or the Hedge Knight, or Fire and Blood.
It’s like something that grows in something else, takes life on its own, takes flesh and bone and then you can’t stop it, it’s alive.
It’s like mushrooms on a tree, or parasites, or fungus upon fungus upon fungus upon fungus…
I mean seriously I admire the way his mind works.
I’m not a native English. Can anyone explain what does “you’ll have to tether me to the Earth” mean?
So if 4 pages a day is a good day and his two remaining books have about 2000 pages that calculates to 22 years. Aye Yai Yai.
I’m hoping he has to have some 40 page days mixed in there to cut off some years and perhaps it will be closer to 15 years for both books.
I hope he still has joy when he writes. I can’t imagine if he’s lost all of the joy of writing about this world and it just seems like a huge weight on his shoulders. I can see that now that the show is over it may take some pressure off. He must have fun dreaming up all of the history of the Targs with recent volume. I love seeing all the thought he puts into the family trees in the appendices of the books.
Wait I did something horribly wrong with my math didn’t I.
He became slow long before the show.
Tron79,
Yea, it’s only like a year and a half, not 22 years, lol.
It’s another way of saying that he’ll “be over the moon” when he finishes. In other words, he’ll be really happy.
At least, that’s the impression I got.
I wonder if some people still insist he has finished the books but is prevented from releasing them blah blah…
Good news and better for George to stay away from the Internet. Its full of toxic shit!
Whether or not he finishes the books doesn’t bother me. We all know what the final outcome will be with Bran as the ruler of the 7 (sorry 6) kingdoms 😉
His ASOIAF novels being made into the GoT series was the best thing ever and certainly gave me 8 years of great entertainment… Kudos to GRRM 🙂
Iul,
Ummm, tie him to the earth because he’ll be flying of happiness? I’m not native either, lol, but this is how you can interpret? LOL? Anyone?
Tron79,
LOL
Yeah, only WoW is 1500 pages or more, ADoS is about the same or more. I think we’re ok with five years, give or take. (give, rather)
Mr Derp,
I hope that’s the feeling we will have after finishing reading it. Well, at least “we really need to have some hope, we all yearn for happy endings…in a sense”.
Yeah, I’m not sure what I put in the calculator!! Anyway, it makes me feel more hopeful that it won’t be 22 years then.
Tron79,
Lol Yes.
I can only say your terrible answer put in perspective the idea that even at his worst rate (2 per day) it’s still not your calculated 22 yrs. so… yay(?)
I think it can also very hard to admit to yourself (and of course to the public clamoring for the books) that maybe you’re not that into something anymore. Writers often stagnate and grow weary of writing about something, but what can you do when you’re contractually and emotionally committed like this? Longtime fans know GRRM’s writing pace had slowed to a glacial crawl way before the show.
Efi,
Isn’t he saying the opposite. The stress from needing to finish the book before the show made it that he couldn’t write as free as he wanted and that was the main reason he didn’t finish the books earlier. Now that he is free to write his own pace. He is free of stress and he can write more natural. And probably faster.
Which make sense. Stress is very bad for a person who writes. It will slow writing down significantly. And its also made clear that the ones hurrying to the finish line will end last. Same thing with me when Im stressing when I need to go I always forgot half my stuff. My phone. Keys. Backpack.important papers etc. When I take my time everything will be done and on time. Somehow it goes faster when I’m relaxted.
Kevin1989,
I know, I was just joking.
I think (I know I’m not allowed to have an opinion, but indulge me) that he’s fixed this idea in his head, and the closer it gets to the end, the slower work becomes. I write too (not fiction) and I have this effect when I’ve completed it at least in my mind. With me, I’m just too bored to do it as it should be.
I imagine he’s not bored, he’s just a perfectionist.
But, seriously, I wouldn’t for the life of want to be in his shoes. Think of all the editing. There are professional editors, of course, but the writer is always the first and the last editor. Now think of 3000 pages. It’s a nightmare.
GoT is over. Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss gave me the ending to this saga already and it was as brilliant as I had hoped it would be. Bran the Broken will be king in the books and Dany will go mad. I’d rather George just shift focus to the prequel series and write for that and be 100% involved in it.
Efi,
Agree. But still many people work when they are tired of it already. And they don’t have the luxury some have. And didn’t Steven King stated that you have an obligation to your readers to provide closure to a saga or something a while back.
Jack Bauer 24,
Rather the other way around, he need to focus on the saga he started with. The books. It’s where he got famous with, and what brought him his income. Just like other jobs, if you get paid you have the obligation to finish it.
And for me books are more important than TV shows when it comes to sagas like GoT.
So he need to finish the books first, and after that he can help with the prequels.
Jack Bauer 24,
What color are your Pom poms Jack? Lol. I had red and white ones back in the day. Shame I didn’t keep them for old time’s sake.
I like hearing from George Martin. He’s interesting. Though I’m not going to read his books until the series is complete. 🙂
Now that’s something I didn’t understand, why they didn’t use the speech. They named the episode after it, and I thought they could have given Brother Ray more of it, rather than the version we got.
Ygritte
I actually just got to Ygritte’s first scene today in the books! I’m quite enjoying delving into them, and I don’t mind if I finish before the next book comes out. I will only have to wait a relatively short time as compared to those who have already waited 8+ years.
I think WoW will be out at some point. There’s always the possibility he doesn’t finish A Dream of Spring, but I honestly don’t mind. What I’m enjoying are all of the added details and getting to spend more time with the characters now that the show is over. I’m getting towards the last part of the second book, and alot has been pretty similar to the show, but I find myself enjoying discovering the different parts and thinking about why D&D decided for TV to go a different route. Anyway, I understand how you might feel that you may not want to take the long journey without having an end in site, but so far for me, it’s been really enjoyable no matter if the end comes or not.
It’s amazing for Ygritte (and other characters) how some of the dialogue from the show is exact from the books (and some not).
I believe George is worried about reception. The show’s ending could not have been more awful than it was, I don’t think, and the backlash to the show’s ending surely alarmed him. How could it not? In an interview years ago he talked about how “cheated” he felt after the ending of ‘Lost’. “Cheated is not the word I’d use to describe the “Lost’ ending.
“We watched it every week trying to figure it out, and as it got deeper and deeper I kept saying, ‘They better have something good in mind for the end. This end better pay off here.’ And then I felt so cheated when we got to the conclusion. . . . I have all of these readers who are waiting on the book. I want to give them something terrific. [Pause.] What if I fuck it up at the end? What if I do a Lost? Then they’ll come after me with pitchforks and torches.”
Indeed they will George. I’m sure you know that “the penalty for bad Art is death.”
Jack Hamm,
Is still an opinion, so don’t state it as a fact. Many found the ending great.
As for lost. I though season 5 and 6 were below par for lost. First 4 (and especially 3),were better. But I found the final itself amazing. It did what a final should do. Focus on the characters and give them an ending. Plot should be ended before the final for me. It felt that the characters got the right sendoff for me. The mystery complained didn’t do it for me because that was the job for the episodes before the final. Which I rather lower.
What about you?
Sue the Fury,
May be. I thought myself a couple of times; that it would wear on a person to be writing about the same thing 20 years later. But he seems so incredibly prolific in thinking and writing about the world though. He wrote that Fire and Blood book like it was nothing and he’s keeps involved in all these adaptations and the pitching of ideas from his world that maybe it’s just the specific characters of these books that give him a hard time.
However he was mentioning how hard it is to write Bran for example before the series took off anyway so I can only imagine he’s a bit used to it and I’m not sure how much more difficult it could be now that we all know he’s putting in on the Iron Throne. I really think it’s more of a relief he’s feeling and he may start enjoying writing about them again. Fingers crossed.
Jack Hamm,
Shoot, I can’t tell if you are sarcastic!
Regardless, I haven’t seen Lost. But fucking it up means bad writing in his case. You can still have Dany go mad and not be bad writing. You can still have Rhaegal dead shot out of the sky and not be weak writing. Execution is a LOT. It’s not always about: I don’t like the way it ended so it’s bad, as unfortunately many think about GOT. I see loads of peeps who literally say: I can’t believe they make Dany the villain. Well, maybe if you have two more books where you can paint your way for her to become a nutjob instead of 1 ep, who knows? It may be a brilliant piece of writing, and good art.
People keep confusing books and show.
GOT season 8 was heavily criticised for how we got to the ending, but Martin writes books, not scripts.
Just because we lost the story in GOT doesn’t mean we’ll lose it in ASOIAF.
And for those who don’t like Daenerys setting ablaze an entire city, well… it won’t change. Other minor stuff maybe, but not this one.
Art is not a democracy.
Jack Hamm,
To have him talk about any ending at all is ridiculous. He is not capable to finish his own story. There is no greater failure. Lost at least had an ending. Some people hated it, but now, almost 10 years after the show is over, there are a lot of people who loved it.
And Martin was also shiting on the end of BSG, Harry Potter. Even subtly shiting on LOTR. They all had an ending.
He failed.
I must have missed the news story where he announced that he wasnt going to keep writing. Or did he die?
Just because he didn’t keep to his desired schedule or yours, doesn’t mean he failed. The funny part is if he did rush and throw out crap to finish the series, fans would be even madder than they are with him being slow.
mau,
That’s a bit my problem with criticising the show, but praising GRRM. At least the show had an ending. I wonder if the books will ever get an ending. It’s so easy to say the books are better when there have been no new books for 8 years (and me personally I didn’t like the last 2 published books, too much meandering and new plots).
JSchmeh,
You don’t need news, only common sense.
Chilli,
If better ending is possible GRRM should write one. Enough with excuses.
Benioff and Weiss didn’t whine and cry how hard their job is. And it was extremely hard to finish unfinished unadaptable story. And the only thing they got from fandom since S1 were insults and complaints.
Maybe if they did whine and complain people would have more understanding for them. But they were professionals. It would be ridiculous for them to do that.
Yes, D&D were on their own with a some sort of plot point outline after the books were completed. I’ve read too much about the ending complaints, but I will say I think one of the main reasons that I’m not sure is mentioned enough is how invested people became with Khaleesi. I can imagine if you named your daughter Khaleesi, you might be upset that she burned KL to the ground after they yielded!! I don’t really want to re-hash all the complaints, but for me personally I’m moving closer to Jack’s appreciation for season 8. But I didn’t name my daughter Khaleesi either!! Dany’s story wasn’t my favorite to follow. As I’ve said before, I followed Arya #1 and I grew to really enjoy Jaime’s arc (as well as others). I think Dany was pretty far down on my list for characters that interested me the most (story wise). BTW, Emilia has a Christmas movie that looks good to me (there’s a preview on YouTube). She has become an excellent actress and after I read what she went through with her health over the years, I admired her work even more.
Tron79,
For me Dany became interesting in season 7 and 8, same with Jon. Didn’t really care for her before that. And that is strange when Tyrion for instance I found more interesting before that. (except 8×05 and 8×06 I found him very interesting).
As for the naming your daughter Khaleesi or Daenerys. The first is already strange when it’s a title. You don’t name your daughter queen. Or your son King etc. And second I really don’t understand it. She burned a woman alive in the season 1 final. Why would you name your child after somebody who can kill without remorse, and with a self-centered reason. (I call it that because she was blinded by for instance what Mirri Maaz Duhr went through when her village was put to the rape-pillage-murder rampage, something that another character who killed a lot did have, she spared other’s, she forgave her sister for instance instead of burning her own sister for siding with Cersei). I really don’t understand it, even that she empowers woman. I rather name my daughter Marrie (for Marrie Curry) if you want a empowered woman in my eyes.
—-
back to the whole: GRRM is right D&D is wrong vs GRRM is wrong D&D is right. I really don’t understand why the other have to be the bad storyteller and the other the one that did right. Putting one in a bad name doesn’t make the other great. For me I like them both, GRRM told the story how it best be told in written form, and D&D in visual form. Both have other obstacles and both have other things that work better with that format. GRRM brough us the story, D&D made it more famous. They both deserve praise. And both doesn’t deserve the mud they are putting through.
TormundsWoman,
Dany fans will never accept her burning down King’s Landing. We saw that with the show. She literally threatened to roast Astapor and Yunkai, massacring hundreds of thousands of innocent people, as a punishment for crimes committed by the few. If people didn’t see why she was capable of after that, they never will.
Young Dragon,
I am a big Daenerys fan and I loved her storyline in Season 8 and her ending. I thought it was brilliant. She has been talking about for 7 seasons to burn cities and sacrificing innocent people if it serves a good cause. No idea why so many are surprised and call it bad writing.
It was definitely brilliant. Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss dropped clues in the writing from the very beginning and even had Emilia say things a certain way and look a certain way when saying them. Couldn’t have had a better ending then that.
The Light King,
Sorry, I didn’t mean to generalize. I just meant a lot of the criticism came from Dany fans. I never considered Danerys to be one of my favorite characters, but I liked her well enough. Season 8 was definitely my favorite season of hers.
Jack Bauer 24,
I think the problem is that many people pay too little attention to the Dialogues. I watched GoT 7 times, Season 8 even 10 times because I loved it and this makes a big difference in understanding certain storylines or motives/choices characters are making.
Young Dragon,
No Problem 🙂 When I read alternative endings for Daenerys storyline, like Dany dies as the big hero or she is the one who kills the Night King or she dies at child birth or some other nonsense, then I could jump out of the window. That’s not Game of Thrones. I’m glad that D&D stayed behind of their story and didn’t come up with such nonsense. Dany’s choice to burn kings landing didn’t need more build up because it was set up from the beginning of the show or at least from season 2. So it worked for me.
People spew their hatred and vitriol against the show and the people who worked soo hard to make it, because it’s in fashion now, it’s trending.
What many seem to miss is, that the magic of GOT lies in it’s journey. The ending was the natural outcome of that journey…and what a great one it was!
The Light King,
I agree completely. The Bells is one of my favorite episodes. D&D stayed true to their story and their characters until the end and brought GOT to a fantastic conclusion.
Jack Bauer 24,
You guys really need to rethink your lives.
You defend season 8 more than HBO or David & Dan.
Now I agree that some of the criticism is nonsense, and that the IMDB score is at least one point too low for each episode of season 8… but man you guys really need to rethink your lives.
The millions of idiots that hated season 8 should at least trigger an alarm or two…”hey, something is wrong!”.
I hope Emilia, Ramin and Miguel will win well deserved Emmys.
I appreciate David and Dan for fighting to create this TV show and for everything that this show was, but not for how it ended. Absolutely not !
Kevin1989,
What is still an opinion?
Martin’s reference to the ‘Lost’ ending refers to the writers of that show gratuitously (George’s most disliked word!) bringing things up and not explaining their use or importance to the story which is a major structural failure in literature. This is exactly what happened to season 8 of GOT.
Iul,
Exactly! D&D did some amazing job bringing it to conclusion, but the story was problematic even in show-universe, and that was due to choices they made (including limited time).
The ending wasn’t theirs, it was Martin’s; it wasn’t their story in the first place, they just tried to keep up with the master mind. They gave the same ending (independently from whether the characters end up at exactly the same place or not) but taking different roads.
While it is ok for a show it is lacking especially for those who compare books and show and also for those who had invested in particular characters (meaning mostly Jon Snow and Daenerys; I believe those who loved Tyrion are mostly satisfied).
In these cases unfortunately it is not surprising that what leaves a standing impression is the negative critique.
The problem is that along with the ramblings of Dany fans the best critique that is founded on logical arguments is also discarded when it comes to the show (because one cannot simply equate books and show, it’s not the same medium), or so it seems. Perhaps at some point (maybe after some time has lapsed, and they’ve all taken their emmys) the showrunners would adress those fans who have spent a lot of their time thinking out the story they saw on screen and explain a few points.
While from their point of view it is unreasonable to engage in a conversation like this for this product and I honestly agree with this, it would at least show some respect and appreciation for those who brought them to this place and gave them this fame and enabled them to keep on working in some of the grandest products of the industry.
In other words, I think I’d like them to tell me that they learned something from all this critique because not all of it was nonsense about hea Jonerys and magic Targ baby, so I could trust them in the future.
But who am I and why would they need my trust, right? It doesn’t work like that (not even in each and every one’s microcosm). Neigh, not gonna happen.
kevin1989,
Did you know that Basil/Vasil is ancient Greek for “that which belongs to a king” ? From where I come from we also have its female version “that which belongs to a queen”, but women also have “queenship” as name, while there is no “kingship” for men. But these are normal names (and all names mean something, i.e. mine is for “joy” or “merriness”).
From this perspective I think Daenerys is rather nice, but khaleesi is weird, because it’s fictional. Both, however, I think derive from historical/modern names or terms and Martin played with vocals and consonants. Still, khal/khaleesi remind me of han of the Hunns or kral of the slavic peoples (both mean chief/king). Well, if we have Cesar which comes from c-section…
(excuse the ramblings of an insufferable nerd)
The Light King,
This 🙂 And coming from a Dany fan says it all 🙂
Iul,
I heard lots of complaints about the final season that I knew many people who watched the show didn’t get it. Complains from people I knew:
– Why didn’t they tell which Baratheons are alive in the final episode? Really? They died in season 5.
– Why didn’t the writers tell us which Kingsdoms are in the seven kingsdoms, what a bad writing? If you just watch you wouldn’t give the final a 1 because of that.
– The show didn’t gave my theory that I had for 7 seasons. Bad writing. Why couldn’t they have read my mind, kind of complains.
– The character I like ended different then I want. Bad writing.
– The evil character since season 1 didn’t end a gruesome death (yes Cersei), bad writing.
– And many more of such complains I have heard. From people who didn’t pay attention and are coming from people I know that watch a tv show with their mobile phone in their hands. That’s half of the negative people out there. Or they talked about the WHAT instead of the HOW. Only 20% of the people I know in real life or read online (ca) have had real critical arguments that stands which I even agreed with that they should have given that more time. I even stated that D&D could have make it themselves easier if they made 2 seasons of 5 episodes each which just 50/60 minute episodes. Double their budget total. Etc. But those real problems of season 8 doesn’t deserve a 1 that many gave. Not even a 6. It’s still much better than what many other shows gave us and deserve at least a 8. Yes it has it’s faults, so did the other seasons that got praised, like season 2 hich had at least double of the problems that season 8 had, but it was not a final season so it got away. But with season 8 the good outweighs the bad for me. There’s a lot of great things happening in the final season.
There’s a reason why most of the complains are: Dany turned evil, Cersei got a too peaceful death, Bran is King. And only a portion really talks about the journey towards that.
And about the complains, if IMDB would be more known in the past and everyone could use a computer. Sopranos would have gotten a worse rating for it’s final but it’s stay on a 9+ now, why? Because only people who really could give a honest professional opinion saw the need to go to IMDB. Same with the Godfather, if that movie was out now it would have given a rating below 6. Same with LotR lot’s of book-fans didn’t like those movies, they would have given that movie also a bad rating. We can even see it with the wire, which stood on place one on imdb when only a few who really knew what a good tv is could vote, now everyone could vote and the rating drops.
For me GoT season 4: 9,9, Season 6: 9,5 Season 1: 9,5 Season 8: 9,2 Season 7: 9,0 Season 3: 8,5 Season 5: 8,0 Season 2: 8,0 ca. Season 2 and 5 were the most rushed season of them all. They crammed in 2 whole books in 1 season for 5. And season 2 also cut short some mayor storylines, like the attack on the stormlands. It needed more episodes. And the shifting from one storyline to the next was really annoying with season 2. One scene from that character one from that, which they changed in season 3.
Season 4 was for me the best of them all. Even when 60% of that season was not in the books and made up by D&D Like Jon going beyond the wall, Brienne storyline, Arya etc.
Jack Hamm,
I meant your statement: The show’s ending could not have been more awful than it was,
That’s an opinion but you wrote it as a fact.
Lost ending was not a literature failure. It is even taught still at many Literature universities how to make great literature. It had almost everything right what you could put into literature, what kind of characters, protagonist, antagonist etc. There’s a reason why it’s still taught. That’s also what I meant with my previous post. Many people have opinions like LOST was bad etc, but in the end it’s still hold high with the professionals who even teach it to their students.
Efi,
I agree season 8 had it’s flaws but many seasons did. Season 2 had that annoying switching of characters, 1 scene for that one one for that one, and you don’t really had a progression per episode per character like season 1, 4, or 7 and 8.
And I agree that season 8 needed maybe 2 seasons, just 5 a 6 50 a 60 minute episodes. Giving it more time per storyline, and having a WW storyline and a Fire storyline. It also made sure that they got more budget.
And for me I was a Tyrion fan but I didn’t like his character in season 7 and 8. But as for Dany and Jon. I liked them a lot in season 7 and 8, very interesting they became.
Efi,
I like the reading :D. And I still think Daenerys is a beautiful name. But still after her season 1 action in which she became famous the name, I wouldn’t have given her that name to a daughter.
Book readers didn’t do it before the show. They understood that you don’t name your child to it till the books are done.
kevin1989,
What?! You’re ripping on S2 in favor of the later seasons?
I like to celebrate and reward brilliance, which this show was from start to finish. I don’t know how Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss did it, but somehow someway they did. I will always be grateful for getting 8 magical and magnificent seasons.
kevin1989,
I agree: S4 was the best.
And S4e7 was my favorite episode out of all 73.
And the last nine minutes of S4e1 = my all-time favorite scene, from “Little Lady wants a pony?” to Little Lady gets a pony.
👸🏻🗡🐓🐓
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Ripping off? In favor off?
I just like other seasons better then season 2. Not that I found season 2 bad. I still rate it at least a 8.0. But for me there’s lot of things wrong with it, which is even adressed by D&D which they changed in season 3. They got complaints because of the way the season was structured. To many bouncing around from storyline to other storylines. 5 minute of every character. Which didn’t do much good. For instance Dany’s whole storyline should have been told in 4 episodes, 5 if you want to cut it in more episodes. But we got 8. Her episode 1 till 4 storyline could have been told in 1 episode, maybe 2. Her episode 5 till 8 could have been told in 2. and her final episode as another. And if I’m going with memoriable scenes from season 2 not much came up for me. I remember the Balon introduction and Tyrion’s scheme in episode 3. And Brienne scenes. And the final 2 episodes. And of course the shadow baby. (which was even badly done in episode 5). That season focussed to much on episode 9 and 10. The rest was not that amazing as people remember it. Even then a lot of complains were about season 2, and even a restructured season where every characters story was less divided in the season and more in 1 episode. It was received well that recut version.
As for season 8 I had more then double the scenes I found memorable.
kevin1989,
iyo. I loved S2 and think it’s one of the best (and the most underrated). So many great character moments and storylines. Had no issue at all with cutting and switching between storylines.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
I can’t disagree that it was an amazing season. GoT is above par with other shows, so even the season I wouldn’t rate high is still high above other shows. But for me that switching was not that great. I had no problem keeping track of everything else, but for me I like it more when they focus more on 3 or 4 storylines per episodes instead of 10+. Just one scene per week per storyline doesn’t cut it for me. I rather miss a character a whole month (4 episodes) and have him at least 15/20 of screen-time in that episode instead of 5 minutes per episode. And I remember season 2 to be heavily criticize by many critics and some fans, that it had to many characters to keep track off, and the jumping from a storyline to the next. Many had problems with once you were into a storyline in a certain episode, that storyline was done for that week and off to the next, same thing happen, you finally were into a certain storyline that week, and it’s done for the week. People were so happy when episode 9 came, not for the action, but for once the story revolved around 1 storyline/location and you could invest a whole hour into that storyline.
That’s why I prefer other seasons of GoT and also 7 and 8. There you are focusing on one storyline at a time, for at least half an hour. Take for instance 8×04 (which is my least favorite of season 8), first 50 minutes you are in winterfell and it focus on that location, then 30 minutes the south combined with winterfell, 2 storylines in half an hour instead of 5.
And it seems once again I talk a lot XD
kevin1989,
Never noticed those things you mention in season 2, loved it. I binge watched the first 2 seasons in 48 hours. Wanted only to see a short trailer on YouTube but saw the very first episode. Was so mesmerized that I kept searching and watching all the episodes from season 1 and 2. Season 3 hadn’t aired yet.
Actually Sean Bean should have gotten an Emmy. The first time I saw him on tv, he was playing the bad guy and I really hated him (even in interviews). In Lord of the Rings he was alright but still not my favourite. But in Game of Thrones I really was impressed with his acting and loved every scene he was in. In season 2 it was Peter Dinklage who impressed me the most. He was so good as hand of the king in Kingslanding. Every scene he was in was pure gold. Together with Bronn and Varys and Cersei and Joffrey, for me the best television ever.
I’m still naively hoping that the books will come out one day, it still amazes me that he thought he’d finish before the show, but here we are.
Personally, I didn’t hate the ending plot points, I hated the journey to them, so a lot of my issues will be addressed in the books. I am pretty sure that the circumstances leading to Dany’s break, Bran as King and Jaime’s death will be better explained. In the show these plots felt so unearned and out of left field, it was just so unsatisfying to see things glossed over, conversations cut and characters rapidly losing IQ points to serve the plot (Dany ‘forgetting’ the Iron fleet, Really?) I just didn’t like it.
I mean, why was nobody talking about marriage between Jon and Dany back in S7? They wait until they are estranged to bring it up, and Varys starts talking about Dany as if she is the Dark Lord Sauron, it was bizarre. I’m not convinced that he would have a problem with the aunt thing either, Starks married aunt/nephew uncle/niece so that felt convenient. I’ve been in the Dany is the final villain club for years, but even I couldn’t follow the plot this season.
Bran as King in the show, I can only get my head around it if the 3ER is actually some Machiavellian entity pulling the strings from the beginning. He couldn’t rule Winterfell, but he can rule 6 Kingdoms? Ok. And he knew what would happen in KL, but did nothing about it, in fact he made Sam tell Jon about his lineage…. for what reason? To send Dany mad? I just don’t understand it, and that Dragon Pit scene did nothing to convince me of his suitability, that scene was multiple episodes crammed into one scene and made no sense whatsoever.
I will be more forgiving of the show if The Prince That Was Promised means nothing in the book, that feels like a glaring omission in the show, they just didn’t want to deal with the magic anymore.
Chilli,
Agreed season 2 was still amazing. But the pacing was the least of GoT, D&D even adressed that and work on it for season 3 and 4.
And yes Sean Bean deserved an Emmy, at least a nomination.
And as you stated Tyrion was the one that was the core of that season. He was the one that made us want to watch the next episode (And Arya for me).
I watched the show when the first couple of episodes aired. Something like half the season. The I though, no I read the book first. Then I read the first book, while I convinced others to watch the show. Season 1 was almost done when I finished the first book and I finished the show. Then I read every book after that before season 2 aired. And what happened was that I found the season brilliant, but they divided 1 chapter over 3 episodes. Which for me didn’t feel right. I rather watch a whole storypart in 1 sitting instead of waiting a week to see the clue. And I think season 2 would be better for me (and some others that complained online back then) if they had put more of the same characters in the same episode, it would mean less episodes per season but the story would have flown better for me.
I though Arya was done right, Same as Tyrion, Sansa and Cat/Robb.
Bran’s structure made sense either for me. But they were smart there, they did only put him in 2 or 3 episodes in the first 5 episodes if I’m not mistaken. So that leaves Davos, Jon and Dany for me. I think Davos storyline was amazing but I still missed the taking of Stormlands, the siege like in the books, but I understood why they cut it. Jon for me his episode 7 and 8 could have been 1 episode. Would have been better for me. And Dany there’s where the real problem for me lies. She was in 8 episodes, while her story should have been more centered. Her first 4 episodes should have been put in one. Her Qarth scenes from episode 5 and 6 should have been one. And her episode 7 and 8 should have been one. And the final one. Only 4 were needed which would give those episode a real Dany-vibe. Which I would have prefer.
I try to find the recut version that they made (fans) I found it back then amazing.
kevin1989,
Wow, you really studied it!
But keep in mind that Martin was still heavily involved in season 2, so he agreed to all the changes and the pacing. And also, one chapter in ASOIAF is potentially many days or weeks long and condenses many things –plot/character development and events.
Also, Martin for keeping up has made charts of timelines, so that he doesn’t forget which chapters/events are happening at the same time with others described in other chapters (he mentioned it in this very interview). Things that are happening in Essos coincide with events in KL or elsewhere and they’re supposed to mean something. One example that comes to mind from the books is Jon’s murder; Sansa hears a howling wolf in the Vale; Daenerys hears a howling wolf in Meereen.
I suppose if you watch cerefully in season 2 you’ll find the meaning of this quick pacing. One example: Tyrion finds out the stashed wildfire under Kings Landing. Look what’s the next scene: Dany teaching Drogon to spit fire. Sweet, isn’t it? This is called foreshadowing in Martin’s world and they did well to put it on screen (imo). In 8.5 they clearly showed parts of KL being blown up with green fire i.e. wildfire.
So I think that this effect of season 2 is thoroughly studied and was done under Martin’s guidance, even though I basically agree with you it was parceled out in tiny pieces, but the political plot in it (esp. with Tyrion acting as hand) was incredibly interesting.
I loved season 5 btw. It was largely based on ADWD but contained things from WoW too. Upon rewatch I was left breathless thinking omg what did I just watch?
I had completely forgotten how amazing it was: Tyrion travels through Valyria with Jorah and gets to question Jorah’s devotion to Dany; Sansa is in this abusive mockery of a marriage but manages to escape with Theon’s help; Stannis gets defeated and burns Shireen; Jon goes to Hardhome and then gets murdered; Arya is in Braavos being trained to become an assassin and becomes the blind girl; Dany’s in Meereen and struggles to rule, only for rejecting ruling in the end.
There’s a nice piece of political dialog between Dany and her husband: “so their (the people’s) reasons (: for dying) are false, while your reasons are good?” Hizdar says. This is a recurring subject which ends in season 8.
In any case it’s the first time Daenerys flies with the dragon; in the books it is described like an orgasm, I think the transfer on screen was good too.
Yeah, I talk too much too! LOL
Jenny,
They created plot threads in season 7 which they later ditched, this is why it feels so hollow upon first watch, and then more hollow if one scrutinizes it. Let’s enjoy it with all its faults.
(personally I can rewatch till ep. 5, it’s ok for me and the story’s ok, but I can’t stand Jon in 8.6 defending Dany burning a city and feeling remorse about killing a mass murderer).
I don’t agree with you about Stark marriages. A lord (was it a Jonnel?) married a distant niece, not daughter of his brother (she’d be daughter of a cousin, but not even first cousin if my memory doesn’t fail me that much).
The Starks go till cousin marriages, not closer. Ned was an offspring of two cousins, just like Jamie/Cersei were kids of two cousins.
kevin1989,
If you only see a character in 4 episodes (in a 10 episode season) the storyline becomes dilluded, loses direction. Each episode may be better, but overall, the season becomes worse, because in a serialized TV series, every episode should be building towards the next one until the finale.
There are a few cases in which a character has only appeared in 3 or 4 episodes, but they were always some of the lesser storylines of the season (Bran or Theon).
But there was NO WAY a character like Dany (who was one of the stars of the show, one of the favourite characters from the beginning) would only appear in 4 episodes in season 2. Both for narrative reasons, and out-of-universe reasons, they couldn’t do that.
Anyway, even though I agree that season 3 has some pacing issues because of what you mention, season 3 was actually worse: it had more storylines than any other season, and most of them featured regularly (even Bran’s and Theon’s characters appeared in 6 episodes!). It is true, however, that they managed to make a few episodes that were sort of structured.
In any case, I think with a few exceptions, none of the GoT episodes were made with the intention that they would work independently. Each season was concieved as a big movie, which only works if you look at it as a whole.
Efi,
I wish I could enjoy it for what it is, I loved the first 2 episodes, episode 3 is great if you don’t scrutinise the battle plans at all (it still bothers me that Jon did nothing) but it all went downhill in episode 4. I didn’t care that my favourite character died, I spent the entire time thinking ‘who is this person?’ when he said he didn’t care about the innocents, I was officially out on an emotional level. I was trying to go along with this tragic ending for Jaime, but that was the final nail in the coffin. The ending came and I just felt nothing, and that makes me sad to be honest, really deflated.
I must be mistaken on the marriage thing, I didn’t realise that it was half uncle/niece, although Alys Karstark appears at the Wall wanting to escape a marriage to her uncle, so I don’t know, perhaps he was uncle by marriage? Either way, the fact that it never came up until it was too late seems crazy to me.
Perhaps in time, I will come around, but as it stands I feel like we were punished for caring about any of these people, it wasn’t bittersweet, it was straight bitter.
I do sympathise with the difficult position they were in, it was an almost impossible task, but that doesn’t make the final product any better, to me it was 2 full 10 episode seasons crammed into 6 episodes and it shows. If I give it a few years, maybe I’ll think better of it in retrospect.
Efi,
Agree, I loved season 5 too. But I had prefer if they had made season 5 and 6, 3 reasons. Or at least 5 longer and having the overall structure different. I wish that Dany and Tyrion storyline would be much slower like the books. Introducing Griff. Having a bit longer with Stannis etc. I wouldn’t have mind if season 5 ended with some politic stuff in Merreen like the books. And intro of Dorne and II. Having Tyrion and Dany meet early in season 6. Having the fighting pit scene halfway season 6. Having her destroy the dothraki lords in the season 6 final. And then season 7 her destroying the fleed of the Masters, traveling to westeros (would loved to have a scene with her just before Valyria), having the season end with her arriving in Dragonstone. Then season 7 could be 8. And what was 8 could be the beginning in 8 and the second half with Dany as a 9. But we got what we got, mostly because they wanted every character to have a full journey in every season. For me that is not needed for all. Bran got also a 2 season storyline most of the time, so why not more characters.
About season 2, I didn’t realise that Wildfire learning drogon to spit fire in season 2. Amazing. But GRRM wasn’t really that involved in the first seasons. Not as much as people think. He gave them advise, but the books were there. D&D wrote the outline, grrm looked at it, and half the time they didn’t do anything with his advice. Even the episodes that GRRM wrote like Blackwater were rewritten by D&D and scenes were added, like the Bronn and Sandor scene in 2×09. That was all D&D.
Efi,
It was not really that they ditched storylines in season 8, more that too much was left hanging. That’s why I understand the idea of having season 8 split in 2. That way they could end a lot of hanging things in that season, and the other parts for 9. GoT is like a Rollercoaster. First seasons was the way up, with small high speed parts. Season 7 and 8 the climb was done and every storyline took off high speed.
oierem,
I disagree. Dany had only 5 chapters in clash. While Tyrion got more then 10, same for Arya etc. She didn’t need more. Another problem with having Dany that much in every season is her season 8 direction. Her storyline should be more to the point in earlier seasons with her story standing on her own. Why? because in the end she wasn’t the ally but the one that was alienated from the rest. Storywise it would have made more sense to give her a story every episode.
And about why they couldn’t. Wasn’t storywise. Many big shows for instance LOST don’t show every character every episode. Or better Leftovers which had an amazing pacing. Most characters were scene in half of the amount of episodes. And it was perfect. It cost maybe more of an effort to make it work, but D&D could have made it work. And they did more like that. Season 3 is not worse the pacing but better. They learned from the backlash that season 2 got, and they changed the pacing. Now every character was in 6 episodes of the season. (ca)
About why Dany was in 8 episodes in season 1 was simple: Advertisement. The dragon-princess. The one which gives the viewers. If she is only in 4 or 5. You can’t advertise with the dragons.
And it’s not that they work independently, no matter what you need to watch 1×01 first, then 1×02 etc. But to give a sense of being into a storyline, that storyline need to be shown a certain amount of time every half an hour. And only move to the next when that storyline felt that it was there too long. Look at season 1 and you know what I mean. There we were 25 minutes in KL for instance before we move to Dany, and it felt right that it happen at that moment. And we only got long time between 2 scenes of a certain character if we want to feel that character was lost. (arya between 1×08 and 1×09) or when a time has passed. (dany missing episode 1×05)
Iul,
No, not really. I mean, sure, more people disliked season 8 more than any other season, but why should that matter to me? I’ve heard every single criticism thrown at season 8, and I disagree with the vast majority of them. Some I completely disagree with, some I disagree with, but I can see where the criticism is coming from. One I agree with, but it didn’t upset me as much as most of you.
1. Jon Snow didn’t have a one on one fight with the Night King. That would have been cliche.
2. Jon Snow didn’t contribute enough to the White Walker downfall. He united the greatest army in Westeros, prepared Winterfell’s defenses, and assisted Danerys in knocking the Night King off his dragon. His contribution wasn’t second only to Arya.
3. Danerys forgot about the Iron Fleet. No she didn’t, as she discussed it earlier in the episode.
4. Drogon could evade the bolts but Rhaegal couldn’t. Drogon was healthy and knew the bolts were coming, whereas Rhaegal was injured and wasn’t aware of the attack.
5. It was out of character for Danerys to burn down King’s Landing. Danerys threatened to burn down Astapor and Yunkai in season 6, massacring hundreds of thousands of innocent people as a punishment. If she was prepared to do it in season 6, why wouldn’t she be prepared to do it in season 8?
6. Varys wasn’t cautious enough when betraying Danerys. Danerys was about to make her move on King’s Landing and was up against a racing clock. He didn’t have the time to be cautious.
7. The Long Night was too dark. Fair enough, but I had no problem seeing it on my television, so it didn’t effect me.
8. R+L=J didn’t play a more important role. The only way it could have played a more important role was if Jon became king in the end, which I didn’t see happening. To be honest, it played a bigger role than I thought it would.
9. There was not enough set up for Bran to be king. This I agree with. My biggest criticism of season 8 was I felt they didn’t utilize Bran enough. That said, I never cared that much for his character, one way of another, so it wasn’t that big of a deal. I never really cared much for who sat on the Iron Throne either. All the rulers we’ve seen in the series were terrible, so the bar was set incredibly low. I knew whoever became king or queen would most likely be better than any of them, and Bran is no exception, especially because of the Small Council he formed.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
I agree with him. Season 2 was great, particularly Theon, Arya, and Tyrion’s storylines, but I liked seasons 6 and 8 better.
Sorry for snipping your post, but these points stood out to me. I agree that a 1 on 1 fight would have been too obvious, but I hate that they plonked Jon on a dragon when Dany could control him anyway. The best swordsman in Westeros sat for 20 minutes doing nothing on a dragon. Such an odd choice imo. This kind of feeds into my other disappointment, all of those Valyrian steel swords and nobody fought a WW, I hoped that this would be the purpose of collecting the swords over the course of 7 seasons. I did like that they all had swords from another house, that was a nice way to show them all coming together. Also, the decision to make it one night, did the other 6 Kingdoms know anything about it? They were just chilling in their castles while this threat to human kind got dealt with, it would have been great PR for Dany. Those are my personal disappointments though and not really legit complaints so I don’t expect anyone to take them too seriously.
My actual criticism of the Long Night is them putting their forces out onto the field and sending their cavalry into the dark to be slaughtered. That made no tactical sense, it made a great shot and depleted Dany’s forces, so I guess who cares? Also putting people into the crypts for the most obvious twist ever, and I couldn’t tell what the hell was going on during the dragon scenes so they were just boring imo. At the same time, I enjoyed that episode the first time I watched it, it was a great spectacle, it just doesn’t hold up to much scrutiny.
The Dany forgetting the Iron fleet thing comes from D&D, its in the behind the episode video. That was their explanation for Dany careering straight into the fleet despite being on a dragon and having a good view of the surrounding area. That’s why it became a joke, because as you say, they mention them in the meeting, but she suddenly forgot when she flew South. They seemingly forgot their own continuity, or they needed to explain how Dany could have possibly been caught by surprise.
Young Dragon,
Agree fully with this. The only thing I disagree with was rheagals death. Not the part of rheagals death. As you stated rheagal was wounded. Even dany acknowledge that he barely survived the long night and that he was very weak. We saw him even fall when he tried to fly earlier in the episode. Or falter first. Even dany was concerned with vyserys then. She looked at him if he was alright. That’s why she missed the iron fleed. Because she was concerned about rheagal. Ironic enough that’s what killed him.
What I had a problem with was eurons side of that battle. He would be the best bolt shooter doing that on boat. More logical would have been on a stable place. Like dragonstone itself.
And as for the complain. History told us that only one dragon got killed ever. Their armor was very thick. Answer is simpel. Technology got better. Compare it too our history. Never did a person win again a bear until we invented guns. Before nobody could kill a dragon. Now qyburn invented the dragon gun and they could be killed. Even if we look at now if we told 200 years ago that we could kill a million people in 1 second people would laught.never could. Now we have nukes.
Jenny,
About jon I see where you came from. Would have been nice him vs a ww.
But the ww got killed. Like in beyond the wall. They were vurnerable. They knew it. They won’t put themselves in danger. We could have had ww battle if we didn’t got the beyond the wall episode.
As for battleplans. They even stated in the episode before they don’t have time to prepare. Meaning also the first plan come to mind come to play. Instead of looking at the faults. What got did was realistic in such a situation. And dothraki only fight in open field. So what did you expect them to do? And they are arrogant. So they can take on the death. Go tell them they couldn’t.
As for the other kingdoms. That’s the point.the ww remains a myth from the north. A fable they believe. Winterfell is the name here. Winter fell. The place where winter fell.
Kevin1989,
As for the death of rheagal. It’s all in the got vibe. Death in a ironic way. Like Robert. Killed by a boar. Death by accident. Which could easily be avoided.
Kevin1989,
The first and most obvious plan would surely be preparing for a siege? Re: The Dothraki, I wouldn’t have sent them into the night, I’d have let the enemy come and have them flank them, it’s not hard to come up with an alternative. It’s not exactly wise to send your army into the line of dragon fire either. It’s not a big deal, as I said, I enjoyed the episode enough, but I do wish we had gotten some Prince that was promised stuff.
I don’t know what to expect from the books, but the last long night lasted a generation and brought famine and made women smother their children in their beds to stop them starving, I think the other 6 Kingdoms knew about it. For all of its build up, the Long Night (episode) was a pretty small affair. I thought they would be pushed South to KL, and that would be how the city got destroyed (still at Dany’s hands) again, just my theory. Perhaps it will happen in the book, and could have happened in a longer season. These are the least of my issues with S8 though, and I can accept what we got easily enough.
Kevin1989,
“And dothraki only fight in open field.”
Kevin, no, just no.
Jenny is right.
It was a stupid move strategically, only made sense for dramatic reasons.
The best way to use the Dothraki would be to split them in two, and attack the Others from the sides. It too would have been open field, as cavalry is used.
To waste good cavalry like that is plain stupid, strategically speaking.
But imagine, for example, that Melisandre would have to go to both sides of them if they were split in two to light their swords. It would have been so anticlimactic!
Also imagine, if the Others were sandwiched between Unsullied and Dothraki, the dragons would have nothing to do, because they’d burn their own men. Such a waste of two good dragons!
They had to produce the best dramatic effect and use everything they had (I mean the directors/producers).
The Dothraki charge was a completely stupid move, but yes, it looked great visually. Sun Tzu must’ve been rolling over in his grave though.
Probably my favorite moment in the Long Night was Mel lighting up the swords. That was epic. Perhaps the Dothraki were just whipped up into a frenzy after their swords lit up and couldn’t resist the charge? I know Jorah was in charge of them, but we never really saw Ser Friendzone give the signal to attack.
Either way, a Dothraki battle with less than 10,000 casualties is considered a dull affair, so it was inevitable.
Jenny,
I get where you’re coming from.
But from the moment they decided to change Jon’s story the entire discourse changed.
They made him look like a good guy, while in the books he’s really, honestly mean if only for the greater good (and he’ll be worst when he comes back from the dead, I don’t believe he’ll have any scruples at all).
Book Jon wouldn’t hesitate to bed Daenerys for her dragon; he’d lie to her and to everybody to achieve his goal. He’s foreshadowed to steal her dragon (I think, Dany’s vision in the HotU) and thereby his secret (him being a Targ) would be revealed. (slayer of lies –I believe this is one reason Quentyn burns). Perhaps I’m wrong but the way Martin takes his story it’s very probable that Jon will sleep with Dany knowing who he is, in order to steal her dragon. After he’s achieved his goal he’ll deny her love (because Dany will give him a shot, after all he’s a Targ, he’s what she wants) for the Starks and he’ll become also her “betrayal for love”.
But they wanted to do the Jon/Dany romance, because it “sold”. This changed everything. They had Dany training Jon how to fly the dragon and then didn’t take it a step further for Jon to appropriate Rhaegal (he did try though, but I doubt many noticed that moment at the council in ep. 4). They turned him into a ‘yes man’ for Dany, and took it from there.
It’s true it would have been much more interesting and intense if they had followed Martin’s lead, or at least one of his leads, but this is what we’ve got, because this is what they came up with. They sacrificed Jon for Dany. This is acompletely different story now.
(wouldn’t it be nice though, if Jon had indeed managed to keep the dragon with him, if, the moment she turned Drogon against KL, he landed Rhaegal and fought her above the city? lol, I know, fanfiction, but there’s adwd foreshadow in the books and I for one don’t believe it’s f!Aegon)
Also: in one of Jon’s dreams, he sees that he holds a fiery sword on the battlements of WF. The sword is the dragon. I think he’ll be flying in the books too.
Lastly, I had forgotten about the Alys affair. It’s interesting that you noticed it. It seems to be a foreshadow of Jon-Dany if we look at it this way. The way Alys (a niece) rejects her uncle in the books may be a foreshadow that Jon (a nephew) will reject his aunt. Of course Alys is appalled by this idea, it’s not only that she doesn’t agree with her uncle usurping what’s hers (because she is an heir; again a foreshadow for a nephew not wanting what’s his to be usurped by his aunt), but also that she’s disgusted with the incest.
(LOL is that a scoop or what?)
Of course Alys is normally thought of foreshadowing the “girl in grey”, meaning Sansa, and they did the girl in grey on screen beautifully.
But so many layers! I am stunned. Not in the show, though; the show was very simple from season 6 already.
Mr Derp,
Ok, I had to look Sun Tzu up. Nice! Thanks for the tip.
Efi,
I think GRRM has described the ending as an Alternate reality, he’s said so a few times. The end points will be the same for Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Arya and Bran, but getting there will be different, and the other characters are up in the air in terms of their end. In time I hope to look on the show as it’s own thing, this is D&D’s story, it will certainly be easier to do that when we have the books (please please let them come out) it’s still pretty raw at the moment.
I remember the Alys thing because I was listening to the Audiobook before the season started, its fresh in my mind so I did bump on that plot point in the show. Indeed Jon is much more interesting and ruthless in the book, he made poor Gilly give up her baby! He is a clever political mover, working towards the greater good, not this fool we got in the show, although he is still emotional about his family in the book and does have some kindness. After his death though, I agree, he will be much changed. I’m undecided on his future, because I get all mixed up with fAegon, and maybe he will do some of the things you mention (plus Euron and that dragon binder).
I’m sure that Jon took some of fAegon’s plot, along with Cersei, and that his lineage is there to create a contrast between him and fAegon, and a choice for Dany. 1 has the backing and is fake, 1 is real but has no proof or support from the other houses. I think fAegon will take the throne and be loved, leaving Dany with a tough battle, possibly leading her to burn KL. Maybe, I don’t know, so many theories. I like your interpretation of Lightbringer as well.
I need to go back and look at Dany’s vision’s, I swear they give the whole plot away, including her ‘fire and blood’ speech at the end of Dance.
Jenny,
As for what you state. If you noticed that was the plan. Wait till the death attack. But Mel lighted their arakhs on fire. Which made the Dothraki overconfident. They attacked right away.
As for food strategy. People tend to forget one thing. The strategy of Robb in season 1. Sending men to their death to ensure victory. That’s exactly what Mel did. She send the Dothraki to their death. Or more to say the lord of light. The question is why would that she do that. What is good about that? Answer is simple. They were not fighting the army of the death. They were fighting the night king. They needed to fight the night king and kill him. Which mean one thing. The night king needs to show himself. When is the night king showing himself? When he feels he has won. What needs to happen to feel if he has won. Our heroes need a plan where they are being the ones defeated.
If they did what you suggested. Having a great strategic plan to defeat the army of the death. The night king would just weakened the army of the living. His weights weakened the dragons. So that would slow them down our heroes. Sacrafice his army, destroy as much of the living as he could, raise them and then Mmove away from winterfell for instance to the south. Let his new army work for his escape. Going to kings landing and underway make new armies that slow our heroes down. Get himself 1 million of new in the army of the death. Against what? A couple of thousand northmen? Humanity would have been destroyed. And don’t forget the night king can do 2 things. 1 raise the death. Or 2 touch them and make them a white walker. (vyserion became a white walker dragon as seen in the script of 7×07). What you described was a great way to defeat the army of the death. What they wrote and we saw in 8×03 was a great way of destroying the night king for once and for all.
The white walkers would also be destroyed in winterfell in the books. How I don’t know. Not by the night king mother ship defeat. Why? Because of 2 things. The white walkers don’t know anything about kings landing. They knows about winterfell and the north. And 2.the name. There’s a reason why grrm named it winterfell. And 3. The whole point is the myth part. A silent Sacrafice from people who will never be thanked and believe. Like tyrion in 2×09.nobody will ever know his Sacrafice there in the long run.
But for me. I still wish there were a lot more action with the white walkers in episodes 1 and 2. And more over I wish they had gone with 2 seasons. With episodes of 50 minute with a 2 episode run winterfell battle. Think about what they could have done if the budget from 8×05 was in the white walker storyline. Damn that would have been epic. And the same the other way. That budget in the cersei dany battle.
Efi,
Just no, that was not the reason. As I explained, it had to do with the defeat of the NK. In which the NK need to feel he has won the battle easily and he was in no harms way. That plan what you described would result in just one way, the fleeing of the NK to gain another army while his army here would destroy a big portion of the Northern lords. He would go south, make everyone there his army while Dany and her dragons are injured (like happened in the episode), set traps along the way south. Kill 1 million people in KL. Which result in 1 million death against a couple of thousands living (with 2 dragons). He even could give his lieutenants a suicide mission. Take out the dragons like they did with Vyserion. So in the end what you suggest would result in the defeat of humanity. As D&D and MS and the actor of the NK already explained. The NK showed himself because he had won, there was no treat anymore to his life. You could also see it that the NK showed up after half of WF army was destroyed in mere minutes. He felt confident to win.
Mr Derp,
As you stated the Dothraki attacked before Jorah gave the signal.
And also the LoL gave them their blessing to defeat the WW treat. That’s what the LoL does. It resulted in the death of the Dothraki, which means the gift the LoL gave our heroes was the death of the Dothraki, they needed to be sacraficed to make sure Arya could destroy the NK in the end.
Efi,
That sounds very interesting. I also think Jon will be darker in the books once he comes back from the death. As Beric stated, become a little less. Now I can’t wait for the books to be released.
But I still think Martin should have waited with the contract with HBO until he finished winds. Then he only needed to finish the last book in the shows run. And the worst what could happen then is that they finish the last season once he is almost finish with his last book. (which he could even give everything he already wrote to D&D.
Jenny,
I think the same. In the books there are 2 who claim to have a claim to the throne. And one is already known to be faked, but still loved by the people. (Which she saw in a vision). Her visions is also the reason why she becomes paranoid in the books I think. And by having the people choose FAegon over her, they sided against her and make them enemies who need to be destroyed. I think she even will use the “I defeat the WW north for you” against the people, who will not believe her and call her a liar. I wish Martin would have finished at least winds already back then. That could have given D&D lots of ideas and a better structure of the last seasons.
And as for alternative realities. I know a great show about that. Fringe. Highly recommended.
kevin1989,
Yes, I agree, it was explicitly said in ep. 2 anyway, they needed to make the NK show himself. But that’s not a reason for sacrificing good cavalry like that, they could have just sent it away, hide it and pretend they were defeated.
What Jon wanted was for the dragons to keep away (for the NK to appear first), to which Dany reacted in the council already. And when she saw what happened with the Dothraki, she jumped immediately on the dragon (and destroyed Jon’s plan –well, not much of a plan really, let everybody die for the NK).
I think it would have been better had they not used the Dothraki as cavalry. They could line up along with the Unsullied, surround WF and when the attack would unfold fully the dragons would relieve the soldiers below by burning the Others from behind the lines of the attack.
But they went for a more dramatic battle and truly I don’t mind (even though my logic disappears, lol, but if I wanted too much logic it’d be work not fun).
Jenny,
I’m not sure that Jon has taken FAegon’s plot. It seems too easy for me, Dany burning KL for FAegon.
Jenny do you think that if this is the case, there will be no Jon-Dany romance in the books? People who think that show Jon took FAegon’s plot tend to think so.
If is so, how would Jon be her betrayal for love? And if there was a romance, wouldn’t it be boring repetition? (if there was also one with FAegon?) FAegon becoming her first main rival in the books would also mean that he’d ride a dragon, which I don’t think he will (because Jon will have to).
I don’t know, when it comes to the books everything seems so complicated…
Efi,
Hmmmm, I do find this difficult, separating the 2 Aegons. I think Cersei is more of a stand in for fAegon than Jon, because she has the Golden Company. And I think fAegon will get rid of the Lannisters before Dany even gets to Westeros, Cersei/Jaime will die at the end of Winds or early in A Dream of Spring. Dany will struggle with fAegon’s support (he may marry Arianne Martell?) and will possibly realise that he is the Mummer’s dragon and take him and KL out. So instead of Jon pushing her towards madness, it will be fAegon. I get lost in the timeline though, because she can’t defeat fAegon before meeting Jon, because we know she will never be Queen, that has to come last, unless the show really did flip things. The bells thing, that maybe was stolen from Jon Connigton? Not sure what role that will play, but that guy is flipping out at some point.
In the show they also had Varys throw his support behind Jon, but we know he is working towards getting fAegon on the throne in the books. I think Jon’s lineage will play a bigger role in the battle against the others, and he will be the PTWP as Rhaegar hoped. They might even have him kill Dany Nissa Nissa style (betrayal for love). But the show cut all of that out and his lineage felt a bit useless, besides hurting Dany. They will def team up and probably have a relationship while fighting the others. In a way the show had Jon as TPTWP because he united the army to defeat the dead, that’s how I took it anyway. I’m anxiously awaiting the books coming out so I can be proven 1000% wrong lol.
Efi,
But that’s just the whole point, they had a choice. Sacrifice a lot of their men to destroy the NK. Which was the biggest treat. Or defend them and let the NK get away. Which is one of the major questions GoT asks from the beginning. What’s one innocent girl against the Kingdom. Or more here. What’s 20.000 Unsullied against millions of people of Westeros. Jon made that decision, which in the past he couldn’t make. That sacrifice needed to be made. He was clear to Dany that the NK is more important than the Dothraki, and later in the episode he made that choice again. Save Sam and let the NK get away. Or let Sam save himself (in which he probably die, which luckily he didn’t) and defeat the NK. Jon chooses to go for the NK instead of saving Sam. What’s Sam’s life against the Kingdom?
Efi,
I think Dany land on Westeros. His first goal is to take Kings Landing, but she gets another vision like she got a lot lately from Quathe. Go north, save the realm, the pretender can wait. In which FAegon becomes much stronger once again. In the north the WW is already there, but they lost. They flee. Dany saves the day. (wasn’t there a theory that the trident will be the clash of Ice and Fire in the books). Dany was the Hero but didn’t receive the gratitude she deserves. The north is afraid of her. Jon falls in love like the show because he saved her. The north makes plan to betray her, probably by Sansa’s help. In which the fake Aegon plot come into play. I think that that will happen after the WW are defeated in the books. (I think WW defeat is around 1/3 1/2 of Dream of Spring). Then Jon agreed to go south with her defeating FAegon. In which the same thing happen as the show. She burns it down. Jon sees that FAegon wasn’t the man Dany described him, she probably will call him a Tyrant. He made a mistake and need to fix it by killing her.
And something else that we need to think about Dany. Dany is the books is much more different then Show-Dany. She is much darker already. And she can manipulate pretty well. She can put on a happy face very easily. I think in the show she will try to manipulate Jon and he will fall for it. I think we already feel that Dany is bad news the moment she set food on Westeros. Her mind is known to us. We can have thoughts like: The people of Westeros don’t get to choose, the dothraki khals didn’t get to choose neither do they.
Jenny,
The timeline is also something that fucks up my mind. Because if Dany is Nissa Nissa that means that the bells happens before the long night. But timeline wise it make more sense the other way. Especially when you think about that the WW storyline is pushed back in the show. I think in the books they are getting below the wall the moment Dany sets sail for Westeros. Which leaves months before she arrive. And I think both are the end of winds. I even think the cliffhanger of winds is the destroying of the wall. Just before that Dany set’s sail to westeros, or a chapter where she makes plan to set sail. And FAegon is set on the throne just before that. I’m still wondering if in the books Cersei will not escape KL and we see Casterly Rock through her eyes.
kevin1989,
I question whether trying to synchronize the books’ timelines and plot lines with those of the show would melt one’s brains. 🤔
Jenny,
Sorry, I’ve tried replying to you several times, but my post keeps getting lost. I’m going to try breaking it up. Sorry for the inconvenience:
Jon was in control of Rhaegal, not Danerys. Remember what Tyrion said, “You sat on a dragon’s back. You had that power.” A dragon with a rider is much more effective than a dragon without one. Besides, Jon may be a great swordsman, but he alone wasn’t enough to turn the tide of the battle. Also, Jon still played one of the biggest roles in defeating the White Walker threat by bringing Dany’s forces to Winterfell. Without her or her dragons, they didn’t stand a chance.
Jenny,
As has already been stated, the White Walkers knew they were vulnerable and that if they died, huge chunks of their army would die with them. It made sense that the White Walkers would wait until the battle was almost won before showing themselves. Besides, the entire courtyard was filled with wights. I don’t see how any main character could have broken away to battle a White Walker with it feeling organic. The way I see it, an all out brawl between our favorite characters and the White Walkers may have added something to the episode, but their exclusion certainly didn’t take anything away from my enjoyment. The Long Night is my second favorite episode and was a cinematic masterpiece.
Two Kingdoms were present at the Long Night: the North and the Vale. As for the other five, only the Westerlands appeared at the dragon pit meeting where the truth was revealed, and of course Cersei held them back from the fighting.
kevin1989,
In order for all that to happen in the next book, Martin needs to seriously pick up the pace. He has way too many storylines to cover and he wasted too much time in Feast and Dance world building rather than advancing the story. Normally, considering that Feast and Dance built up to a lot of climaxes that he simply moved into Winds, the story moving at a faster pace shouldn’t be outside the realm of possibility, but the sample chapters tell a different story. I would say he’s released more than 10% of his book already, and yet the plot is still moving at a crawl, and he hasn’t even given us any Bran, Sam, Davos, Jon Con, Jaime, Brienne, Cersei, Danerys, Melisandre or Jon chapters, and has only given us two chapters of the other characters, at the most. I don’t see any conceivable way he can finish in two books.
Jenny,
I agree that the battle tactics used during the Long Night were much to be desired, but that’s true for most battles in fiction, including the earlier seasons of GOT. I mean, the BOTB, one of the most acclaimed episodes, was basically two armies clashing into one another. More thought was put into the Long Night battle tactics than that, with lighting the trench, the dragonglass gate, using Bran as bait to lore out the Night King, etc. If we’re talking only of battle tactics, the best battle in GOT was probably WOTW.
Young Dragon,
Yeah, it’s fine, those are just things I wish could have happened, not really deal breakers on that episode, it was incredibly tense the first time I watched it, I don’t get much out of it on repeat viewings though. With the WW, they have usually appeared with the wights, so them being interspersed throughout the army and controlling their wights wouldn’t have been out of place. Imagine a battle plan where they prepare for the siege, and the main characters have 1 job, find and destroy the WW a la Hardhome. I was imagining the battle taking more than 1 episode though. Jon on a dragon is fine in theory but when spectacle is so important, having him just sat on the ramparts was an odd choice.
Since they needed the NK to think he’d won, honestly I would have just sent half the army away and let the rest get decimated, would have saved a few lives, send them back towards the Dreadfort to wait as backup, I’m not sure that the NK is smart enough to figure that out.
Funnily enough Watchers on the wall is by far my favourite battle episode, that 360 degree shot was just *chefs kiss*. Hardhome and Blackwater were really good as well. The subsequent battle episodes have been a bit meh for me, but I prefer the talky episodes anyway, maybe with the odd dracarys thrown in.
kevin1989,
I think Cersei could escape, we have heard so much about the Rock, we will probably go there at some point. I think Jaime could go back to KL to save them, he refused her letter but if KL is invaded he will want to save Tommen and Marcella (if she makes it back) and Cersei. I am 99.9% certain he is the valonqar though, my guess is that she causes the death of the children or Brienne and he kills her, or uses wildfire, no way would Jaime be Ok with that. Cersei in the books has no redeeming qualities so I could see that happening. Jaime will probably kill himself after, I don’t see how he could go on after doing that. I’m not convinced Brienne will survive either. All of them are in the ‘tragic death’ category for me.
Ten Bears,
Probably. It’s very dangerous. Better not try it.
Young Dragon,
At least he is not adding anymore characters, he has promised. And if he kills of Cersei/ Jaime/ and some others already before the end of winds it’s possible. Having all the starks in Winterfell at the end of winds. Having Dany set sail, having the wall fall. Having FAegon on the throne. I think those are really possible to happen before the end. Then dream is much more streamlined like seaosn 7 and 8. But even GRRM is still on the fench if a third book is not needed.
Young Dragon,
Funny thing is that the BoTB was taken from history, that battle happened. So maybe not all battles in history were that tactical to begin with. But from Ramsay’s point of view it was a great tactic. He enclosed Jon.
Jenny,
I think he is smart enough. He probably understand something is wrong.
Jenny,
I still think Jaime is not the Volanqar but that it refers to another character who I don’t know. The volanqar of Robert? Of the beautiful queen that cast her aside? I’m wondering how things will happen in the books with Margery.
kevin1989,
Well there’s a number of ways it can go but I have my reservations for the most reasonable according to where the story stands now and the most obvious according to human logic (! I don’t think Martin is obvious). I’m thinking that three things will have to be accomplished for the story to unfold and unfortunately all three are obscure because they’re from the prophecies/visions.
1. “Until there comes another younger and more beautiful to cast you down and take everything that you hold dear”.
This clearly refers to the throne (cast you down). We think that Cersei will be beaten, but what if she won’t? Of course “another” could be FAegon, but what if it’s not? (why would a man and a woman be compared in terms of beauty in this context is beyond me) What if it’s Daenerys or Sansa? “Everything that you hold dear” points to someone who is somehow involved with her beloved ones).
But of course FAegon would have to be proven fake, because Dany is the slayer of lies. And to he honest there is no reason to believe that just beause the prophecy is structured that way “cast you down” will precede immediately “take everything”. Perhaps there’s a time lapse in between; perhaps indeed Cersei will be cast down by FAegon and she flees and then realizes that someone has taken everything and that someone is somebody else, not FAegon, and then the valonqar part is accomplished.
2. “A stone beast taking wing from a smoking tower breathing shadow fire”. Now this is clearly Jon, and for me it means that he’ll steal Dany’s dragon, which would mean (probably) that she won’t be that cooperative, at least at first (lol, just like the show). And this goes together with “slayer of lies”, which means there’s a lie involved, and the lie here is Jon’s parentage; after Quentyn and FAegon Dany will know that the person who stole her dragon (Rhaegal, obviously) is a true Targaryen. It will be a dramatic moment for Dany (not like the show, that was anticlimactic). The “smoking tower” could be either WF or KL. But I think that Jon will go to find Daenerys and ask for help. This could be in KL, but what if it’s not? What if it’s Meereen? Or Dragonstone just like the show? I don’t know, just guessing. Jon in the books already comtemplates that he wants the dragons, and Quaithe has warned Dany that people will be after her dragons. I don’t see how she will avoid having her dragon stolen. But perhaps it’s not stealing, perhaps it’s a test, like it was in the show?
3. The dream Dany has of the Trident. It is considered that it’s a foreshadow that she’ll fight against the Others, but what if it’s not? What makes me suspicious is that she speaks about “the usurper’s dogs” and there’s dragons flying and clashing in the air, and it’s the Trident instead of, say, the Wall, or the far North. Usurper was to her Robert Baratheon and she basically recreates an environment similar to the circumstances of Rhaegar’s death, but what if it’s not about that at all? What if “usurper” means Jon here, who is coming from the North and has a dragon? What if the ice her enemies have is not just Others but Northerners? What if what’s described here is a civil war between the North and Dany?
If Dany has taken over KL, then she’d want to clear the field for herself, and she’ll see Jon as a usurper, who has a dragon in addition, and that’s the “dance with dragons” that’s been promised, that ends with the destruction of KL and Dany’s murder. In this case Jon will not only be responsible for the burning of the city but also for an entire civil war (I suppose with the North’s independence being the objective) and his punishment will be sensible.
It’s all very complicated but it will be very interesting to see how it unfolds. It goes without saying, I don’t really give a damn about Victarion, or Euron, or whatever. The Jon-Dany clash in the books is what interests me the most.
kevin1989,
Ramsay threw arrows on the battlefield, killing his own men, lol. Talk about twisted!
That was a Roman tactic encircling with the shields.
Efi,
For number 1, I think the show might refer to Margaery, though the obvious answer is Dany. I think in the book it could still be either of them. Now, my personal fanfiction twist? Brienne. Nobody said anything about outer beauty, and she doesn’t specify ‘Queen’ she just says ‘another’.
Could number 2 refer to zombie dragon? Or was that entirely made up? I also think Euron will use his dragon binder at some stage so it could be him?
I think that the others will get further south possibly to KL, so a lot of things could be happening at the same time. She wakes from the dream feeling ‘exultant’ so whatever battle takes place there, she will win, or perhaps make a discovery, but I think it will be a temporary victory, well it has to be.
Efi,
Sounds interesting. But isn’t victorion or Euron not trying to steal a dragon from her?
I still think 1. Is Arianne. She is described as very beautiful. Or maybe what Jenny explained. Brienne.
2. I’m wondering who will steal a dragon of her indeed. But what if it’s just like the show. And the other’s take him? Or Bran? Bran will fly.
3. This is the most interesting one. The endgame.
Efi,
I meant that that is exactly what happened in the past. Don’t remember which battle. But that a king made a circle of bodies (that were his own man) to enclose the enemy. They use that tactic in that battle.
Sometimes, while reading the books, I had the feeling that GRRM somehow grew tired of what he was writing and decided to create new characters and new storylines to satisfy his new interests… For example, Euron’s and Victarion’s storylines made me think: “Oh, GRRM probably was into pirates in those days…”
He created so many characters, so many storylines… Sometimes I really had the feeling he wanted to write something new, but he had to finish this saga so he put everything in it… But the result is a giant Moloch hard to finish now…
Benioff & Weiss wisely cut off some of these characters and storylines… I wish GRRM had someone like them who could advice him and prevent him from overdoing it…
TormundsWoman,
He had a contractual agreement. I get that he may no longer be ‘into it” But at the very give your writers and producers more than the outline you did give them. But thats all in the past.
That being said I am thankful to GRRM for writing this amazing series (with its issues of course)and inviting us into this world, and to the show folk who brought so many of my favorite characters alive
Kevin1989,
Um, not really
funny story, let Cersei tell it
Ten Bears,
nah, theyd probably just use Boiled Leather
ash,
Which part? Why we didn’t got a WW battle? Wasn’t that explained by MS or D&D?
The battleplan is also explained by MS. There was little time, with an enemy they never fought like that, so it’s guessing time how to defeat them. And the brilliant plan that people tell here how they should have used the dothraki would have ended in the same way. Dothraki are in open field. So keeping them still till the wights attack would kill them. Having that plan of moving them in 2 flanks would also result in the same what happen on screen, only difference was that now half of the Dothraki survived but then all would have died.
The dothraki are a wild race, they fight wild, and they won’t listen to orders, it’s not in their nature. They got fire Arakhs and they thought they would be over-powerful against the death. And you can’t blame them when a fire witch give you that fire just moments ago.
And as for strategy, if just one strategy would have really worked, they would have defeated the WW north of the wall. There was a reason why the wall was there.
And the point is still that the other Kingdoms won’t believe in the myth/legend of the WW. That’s why they have been defeated in Winter fell.
And about the death of Rheagal. For me it’s the same kind of dead as Robert’s dead. A stupid death, ironic or how you would call it. Back then those death’s were praised because for once a show did do “a hero death”. Just simply somebody died because of stupidity. Now in season 8 they wanted no stupidity everyone needed to be logical (which is not even realistic), they want every character having a big hero moment (Jon killing the NK for instance). People wanted in season 8 the opposite what got was in the beginning.
Ok, this is one more attempt to write a reply on this page (somehow it eats up everything, lol, just to punish me).
I think we should acknowledge to Martin the brilliance of writing something so complicated, where each and every word is the product of real intellectual torture. I was wondering about the meereenese story (until I read the Meereenese Blot Essays), I was completely bored with the pirates’ plot, but I loved Dorne and FAegon and the northern conspiracy. I’m waiting baited breath to see how it all will be tied together in the book.
D&D however only kept a tiny part of this story. From Martin’s original I suppose they kept Sansa and Jon being the first to reunite and take WF back with help of the Vale, Shireen burning, Daenerys burning the khals, Jon seeking her help. The ending is the same (at least the broad strokes), which means Daenerys is dead and there are two kingdoms (I have doubts about the ending of the characters).
The story as we saw it on screen was coherent (well apart from the ending), but it was flawed because it doesn’t match the book characters (for those who read the books), or there are inconsistencies in show universe relating to character development for others who only watched the show. There are of course those who liked it no matter what and that’s legit too. People are allowed to have their own opinions and estimations.
That they needed to adress the audience in the last ep through Tyrion defined a major part of the ending and that by itself was a result of their choice to make Daenerys the face of the show in the previous seasons as if she were the hero not the final antagonist.
The result is that the burning of KL seems as if it came out of nowhere (those who complain are rather right about it in spite of the foreshadow) and it served no purpose in the overall story, because Tyrion told us that Jon has to protect his sisters, not kill a tyrant. But Jon in the end has doubts about killing her, as in “let’s see if she can be forgiven by giving a promise that she won’t burn anybody else”, and he gets punished not because of taking part in the massacre, which was never mentioned by anyone, but for killing a queen (not a tyrant), and for being a Targ (which means that no one trusts him after what happened).
For this plot to be different Jon would have to have chosen his family over everything else, he’d have to have supported the North’s independence and completely reject Daenerys as family and/or lover, and Daenerys would have to know it (already in ep.4). Then the burning of KL would have been a political statement as in “bend the knee or suffer the same fate”.
But in such a scenario Jon would also have to be an antagonist, rather than Dany’s pet to torture. He’d actually have a story in season 8 and I don’t think many would then mind that he didn’t actually kill the NK because he’d be Dany’s main rival.
But as it was it was only Dany’s story, and even that made her look mad, not understanding what she did by burning a city, smiling like a schitzo and calling Jon to take part in her new world of fire. Jon killed her because she was crazy (and he couldn’t trust her that he wouldn’t burn Sansa and WF), which is… ugh, and their underlying love story which they maintained as a possibility until the very end and Dany’s last words is even worse, because to many it seemed like the old “male lover kills female lover” trope.
What we saw on screen seemed like a common story, one that has been repeated over and over in the big and the small screen, lover killing lover, hero killing mad murderer. It seems to me that D&D chose the easy way out of a very complex thing while all along maintaining the focus on Daenerys. It was all active choice and they can’t be compared to Martin.
What I’m saying is that D&D’s GOT ended up being easy in season 8 (rather nice but easy), while Martin’s ASOIAF is not.
I am now going to press the ‘post comment’ button, see what happens.
Efi,
I think all the seasons are solid when it comes to TV shows. That’s how I rate GoT as a tv-show. It’s above other’s. That’s why I’m still positive about season 8. But….
… I have to agree with you about the choices D&D made. But those choices they already made it season 1 and 2. As I stated before in this or another article. They chose that the main-characters needed to be in at least … episodes. Where this was 8 in the first 2 seasons. And 6 in season 3 and 4. This has a issue in the overall story-arc. When it comes to the books certain main characters are absent for half a book sometimes, they are not needed. The story switched to others, and maybe a side-plot of secondary or tertiary characters. What D&D did was keep those side-plots too the minimum. Those story-lines you stated, but in the end those story lines are important for the endgame. D&D kept those story-line short, and simplified it, for instance Dorne plot in season 5. All the brilliance that George put in that storyline out of the window. All for keeping the main characters on the forefront and another reason why this happen that I write in another comment.
kevin1989,
part 2.
This all because D&D wanted the main character to have a fully fleshed out story every season. Where George could add 200 pages to his books, D&D couldn’t add 5 episodes to a season. And if you go with Feast and Dance if you wanted those storylines fully fleshed out, it would have taken 20 episodes at least.
For me personally I wished they went more with the books route. I don’t need my main characters to be in every episode as long as that episode is amazing on it’s own and the characters in that episode brilliant. If Dany, Jon, Arya etc were only in 4 episodes per season, for me it would be enough if the other episodes were brilliant with the characters in it.
I wouldn’t mind if we for instance in season 5 and 6 and extended to a 7 season, and we got a detour on the main story. We got a fully fleshed out Sam storyline like the books, Brienne storyline, Dorne and Iron Island storyline and everything else. D&D are brilliant enough with writing and self-made characters that they could have made the new characters very likable if they wanted, and that we didn’t mind that we got a little less of the main characters and more of the new characters. Having season 5 and 6 end with KL the same, Jon the same. Arya the same. Having Sansa the story as in the books but only show her in episode 3 or 4, and in the last 2 episodes of the season. And have her return to winterfell like in 6×09. And her season 6 the same. But add the storyline of the side-stories of the books in those 2 seasons. Let Dany slow down, having the dragonpit halfway in season 6 and having that season end with her ending of 6×04. Having Tyrion a bit slower like the books. Let him meet Dany halfway season 6. Having season 7 start with the Starks coming together, character building before plot for me. All the Starks together halfway through the season and let them concern about the WW treat only and about the background of the white walkers. Having Dany liberate Merreen in 7×03 set sail for westeros in 7×05 and in 7×07 a moment before valyria. And having her arrive in Westeros in the final episode. Having Cersei battle with FAegon in this season with him ending on the throne (or her winning doesn’t matter). And let all the side-storylines end in this season final and come together. And the season end with the coming down of the wall…..
kevin1989,
The ww take the wall down like the books with the horn of winter.
Season 8 could have been a season of 7/10 episodes. With having the WW take over parts of the north in the first 5 episodes in skirmish battles and smaller battle episodes like we got in 7×02 and 7×03 or 7×04. Having also a bit in KL in those episodes and background about the WW. Having Dany get a visit from Mellisandre in 8×01 that the real war is north, Dany is already fascinated from fire, so Mel shows her the war north in the flames, Dany believes it, it’s her destiny after all. That episode end with Dany stated: The real war is in the north. Home can wait. Or something like that. Having it mirror Stannis. Having her leave Dragonstone in 8×02. Having her arrive in White Harbor in 8×03. Having a very interesting meet-up there. Having her go north in 8×04 and moving west in 8×05 towards winterfell. She rescued people from wights from the near-by village that fled just from them. No white walkers only wights. Episode end with a group of wights and the White walkers before the door of Winterfell. But Dany is not there yet. 8×06 Battle part 1. around 50 minutes + interesting parts inside + a battle with some not so important WW captains. Everything looks lost. Dany saves the day in the end killing the wights, the Heroes kill white walkers. Hopeful end. 8×07. Quiet beginning. Bran explains that this was just a portion of the WW attack, his full force comes later. He knows know with what he has to deal with. Dany states she can take them on, she killed already a bunch of dead and saved them. Preperation for a second battle is being made. Lot’s of stuff in KL. 8×08 Battle part 2. White walkers give full force to WF. The episode ends with them fleeing from Winterfell with only a portion of the survivors. A dragon is being killed and resurected by the NK. They flee through the tunnels. Or having them go after the NK themselves in his turf. Being overconfident. But it ends with him taking a dragon. 8×09 Battle part 3. which ends with Arya killing the NK and Mel dying.
8×10 could be a cliff with Dark Dany part 1.
Season 9 War south Dance of dragons part 2.
kevin1989,
with Jon’s parentage and Dany Jon love in season 9
kevin1989,
You’ve given this a lot of thought and I appreciate it. (There’s creativity in there and good ideas, I hope you’re doing something with it in real life).
The episode structure you propose is closer to the books. Perhaps some slowing down would have helped, even though the books are moving too fast for me too (maybe one of the reasons is that winter doesn’t really affect Martin’s imaginary world, everything keeps going, unlike in the real middle ages. And it really bothers me that the protagonists are so young).
Apart from minor complaints about the first seasons I think I was generally ok with it. I mean they definitely could have done it without all that nudity that was there for shock value only. Also the rapes could have been spared, thank you very much.
So I don’t really have any structural suggestions apart from those I’ve noted about season 8. As it is I can watch the entire GOT series, until the very last ep. This really f@@@@ me up, so for the time being I’ll refrain from another rewatch (I’ve already seen it thrice except for the finale).
The FAegon plot in the books suddenly makes the South interesting again, while it had started to wear off. Dorne I liked because it was revealed that not everything was as it seemed (book-wise). The change of Ellaria in the show was not a good change, but that’s because I have a general problem with the trend of the industry to make women warriors, so I, well, I swallowed it, since that’s what they gave (what can I do, eh?).
However, I would have liked to see Jon as he is in the books. If I had one major complaint about the earlier season, this would be it. Because book-wise he’s a marvel; he’s shrewd, unscrupulous but for all the right reasons, and a great politician (perhaps one of the best in his time); he doesn’t know many things, but he’s a fast learner. But they didn’t believe in this character, threw everything they had on Dany, and season 8 with all it’s problems was the result. From the moment he was resurrected in the show, his character has been going down the hill. But as I said this was done for a purpose, to let Dany shine.
If I am not mistaken it has been said (either by Martin or D&D) that they couldn’t do the plots of FAegon and Dorne because they didn’t want to add more actors (for budget) or more side stories. As you said, in the show it’d be questionable what it would serve, while in the book it will lead to specific events. What is the purpose, i.e., of Jon Connington? His grayscale plot was given to Jorah, and bookwise he seems to have been in love with Rhaegar. But Cersei was in love with Rhaegar and I still wonder if it isn’t she who will come out on top from this confrontation.
I know: what if it’s Cersei that marries FAegon? wouldn’t that be a twist?
(one can only imagine Dany’s wrath!)
nvm
kevin1989,
sorry I was being silly, you meantioned that Robert was killed by a boar. It was Cersie who really did it, But never mind, just a joke tha crash landed!
Efi,
Thank you. I heard that a lot. Back when Harry Potter movies were into play I had made some fanfiction scripts on a forum of it. Not a whole movie but parts. Was the 6th book because that was my favorite. And people there tend to like it. It was before the movie was released and somehow people disliked the 6th movie a lot because of my script there. I also made a hobby of structuring the Harry Potters there with ideas of what if it was a TV show. But unfortunately my health is an issue, which already give problems with my current work, which is not that much hours per week. And the fact that I’m dutch, being British or American is much easier to make it. Or at least work with that kind of shows/movies. In my country is mostly boring soap-series or badly acted or written detective shows, which are dumbed down because the ones looking for an interesting show only watch American or British shows.
Agree I think slowing it a bit down would have helped a lot. Yes the plot wouldn’t have moved too slow, but that was already the issue in season 1, those complains stayed no matter what. And should not be the fans you need to worry about. The once that liked the character driven season 1 wouldn’t have mind if everything moved a little bit slower. And for me I would have loved it better if Dany moved to the north on her own account, and more her destiny personality, Mel could have upped that with visions in the flames. And not having Jon get her. And having her romance with him build because of the Long Night the big battle and only once the WW were defeated the bomb shell of Jon would have gone off, would also have made more sense. Now it was episode 2 she looks to concerned about the throne, angry. Episode 3 she was the big hero, episode 4 it turned again. And Dany was destined to become the villain, that’s why I think it wouldn’t be a big problem if her story per season was less per season and more stretched. Having her not having a big story every season. And with season 5 when everyone moved to Dany she wasn’t needed to be shown on screen. Her presence was there. She could be in just 4 episode there. Same as Tyrion and Griff and maybe Quentyn and Dany’s presence would be in 9 or 10 episodes.
Efi,
The youngness doesn’t bother me that much. Only time when that bothers me when the first season starts with a bunch of 16/20 year olds. Too much relationship problems etc.
Agree with the overly used sex-scenes. That scene in 1×07 with Baelish talking about Brandon Starks and his duel, should have been a remarkable scene, but it was overshadowed by the 2 ladies there. That’s why I also defended season 8, because even the beginning had its problems, which I personally think George did better. He had graphic scenes in his books but they were better placed and more logical that it was there.
I think the final is great on it’s own, same with every episode in season 8. But I think the overall feeling of that season I think it could have handled better. And even cheaper if they split it up in 2 seasons. Season 8 was very expensive because of 2 big episodes. With almost the whole episode being big. Character driven scene is cheaper.
Agree about FAegon that’s why I hated it when it was omitted in season 5. And the premise of having Dany vs Jon setting up an attack to a king who is ruling just feels for me very interesting, hope George goes that way. That would also make it more interesting for Jon following Dany. When he founds out his new love is not that sweet as she seems, and that that was already visible way before. I liked Dorne also because of what you said. Putting the story on its head. And also I think crowning a queen for revenge sounds more interesting than killing for revenge. That’s not Elleria from season 4. She would never have harmed Myrcella. And it would also be more GoT when Myrcella felt victim to that, unforeseen consequences.
I think it was also a structure problem, if Dany and Jon had meet after the wall was broken, having her save them, it would have made more sense if Jon had fallen for her and not seeing who she is. She was the hero against the white walkers, who he fought against, how can we not follow her. And only after that the Aegon reveal and having Jon witness the first horrible act of Dany once he is at the carnage of KL. In the show he was already warned multiple times, even Sam.
That FAegon marrying Cersei plot would be amazing. And the wrath of Dorne. And then we could have FAegon doing the right thing, but Cersei undermines him.
ash,
Oh sorry, my fault, wasn’t really awake at that moment. XD And true, it was Cersei but the method was Ironic, strange etc. I would also say Ironic, A stag killed by a boar. Not everything had to be the simple sword or poison death. This was more interesting for me. Same with Rheagal, he was killed because Dany didn’t pay attention, because Rheagal was hurt and she looked if he was ok. Rheagal died because of her cautioness to his health. Which for me is ironic if she just had ignore Rheagal and not be concerned he would have survived. That’s for me what GoT deaths are about. Only thing bothering me from that scene was that Euron attacked from the see, a ship moving in the waves, one bolt is maybe possible but 3 that’s more luck than the state lottery. If Rheagal was killed from land. Bolts stationed on ground that doesn’t move, having the ships only destroy Dany’s ships would have made more sense for me. Only problem is this then: The ones killing Rheagal need to escape with luck, or they get killed by Dany and co. So it couldn’t be Euron in that moment to kill Rheagal. Also why would Tyrion wait that long to tell Varys. That’s 2 weeks or something.
For me it would have made more sense if Euron had an attack at White harbor. Destroy half the ships. Still water so killing a dragon from ship is not that difficult. Having it done at night which would take longer for the soldiers to wake up and fight. So Euron could easily escape. It would also make sense if Euron (which is in his character) would send a suicide squad in White Harbor to run havoc there. In which Missandei could be taken in the chaos.
I can see it before me. Dany is on a balcony. Rheagal on the ground before him raising his head to her. Dany: You’re wounds are healing better now we are more south.
Rheagal greets his mother.
Dany: *fly in Valyrian*
We see Rheagal fly, his flying goes pretty well better then what he did at winterfell. Dany smiles. Speaks towards Missandei: He will be better in a fortnight. Dany calls for Rheagal to come down. He goes down and when almost on ground level maybe 25 meters we see Drogon open his eyes and raising his teeth. Dany noticed that something is wrong. Looks at the water sees a shadow in the distance, she doesn’t see what it is, 5 seconds later a sound of a bolt is heard which is followed by the bolt penetrating Rheagal. All happening in seconds. Rheagal falls a couple of meters. Another 2 bolts. Rheagal death. Dany: Stay! (towards Missandei). She runs outside towards Rheagals body. Drogon is already attacking the ships but flees because he is almost hit by bodies. He gets Dany, together they fight of the ships. Once defeated she talks towards Grey worm and the Dothraki leader. Grey worm runs toward Missandei. Dany towards the body of Rheagal. Drogon consoles her. We hear Grey worm scream for Missandei. And that she’s gone. The chamber of Dany where Missandei was just moments ago is a mess, a fight has happened here. We see a scene what the episode should have ended with Euron on horse with a couple of his men. Miles away. He takes Missandei off with Euron’s ship in distance.
kevin1989,
That could be the ending of 9×02. If they went with Cersei vs Dany in the end. With 9×01 them leaving Winterfell. Having 9×03 with Dany having a hard talk with the lords of White Harbor. She blames them for lack of defence. Blaming them with working with Cersei. Giving treats if she finds out they worked with her, she would turn their city to ash. Not stating the civilians but implying it. She moves towards KL. In KL Missandei is given to Cersei. Who personally cuffs her. We see the people of KL asking for her head. Cersei states they need to wait, but if Dany doesn’t surrender, they will get what they want. We see also a group who seems concerned, the bigger group, only a small group wants Missandei’s head. Maybe even have a conversation with some (Like we got with the Second Sons in 3×08). The episode ends with Missandei’s death.
9×04 Preperation for the battle of KL, including the plan of the bells, including Varys dead. including Varys trying to poison Dany. Part 1 of the bells episode but more character moments. Ends with the notion that battle is coming with a feeling Dany will go beserk. 9×05 The battle for KL ending in death by fire. 9×06 Dany as a ruler, ends with her death. 9×07 What comes after.
kevin1989,
hee no worries – it Was early!
The biggest problem I had with the ending was King Bran. . Someone mentioned how D&D move characters in and out. Mostly that worked.. But he missed an entire season. Yeah people didn’t want to see the training but idk it would be interesting comparing it with Arya. And maybe in that season coulld be some sprinklings of his magic,his leadership, his awareness of the world around him. then season 6-8 really develop into a force. Something to make us see that mmmmm, maybe he would be a contender.
Here is what they say about it
So they couldn’t have made cinematic? Some training like Luke has made it clear where they were going with this. What they say doesnt make sense given your end point.
I love your ideas for how to make it diffferent – if he were around, how would that play into what you guys have put together. Thoughts?
ash,
I still wish we could see Bran’s training. For me the king in the end is not important. GoT was always for me how it affected others around. How did Robert affect others, Joffrey, Cersei, Dany etc. So that Bran became king for me isn’t a problem that he missed season 5. And not even he wasn’t that much around in 8. I wish a scene or 1 or 2 more that could explore Bran better. Which could be if they had season 5 and 6 a 3 season parter. Having 8 about the WW (my idea how I saw it) and having season 9 about Dany vs Jon vs Aegon/Cersei. Which Bran could be more involved in another way.
As for season 5 itself, I wish they had a training, he didn’t even have to be seen a lot. Episode 3, Episode 5 and episode 8. He could even sit out episode 9 and 10 like Sansa did in season 5. Or having him in episode 2 and 5. Story changed towards the side-stories. And only be seen again in the final.
kevin1989,
LMAO!!!!
While, at the same time, Sansa in Winterfell, to Brienne:
“I told them they should have waited to recover from their injuries first. Fools!”
Brienne: “No worries, my lady. They should all learn to listen to you; you’re always right. Now they’ll suffer the consequences of their stupidity”.
Sansa: “Well, if Jon can’t have that dragon, she won’t have it either!”
Efi,
hahaha funny thing is that Sansa was right. If Dany just had listen to her. She warned about recuperating, even Rheagal was injured at the moment. Dany should have waited for him till he was fully recovered. And she was also right about Cersei.
ash,
By giving up on Bran in season 5 they missed an opportunity to delve into the magical elements of ASOIAF and the North in particular. The vision Bran has in season 6 could be broken into pieces and shown in season 5 with emphasis, perhaps, on the death and devastation that Ice brings, or Fire brings. In the beginning Bran saw into the “heart of winter” and his training is not just training, it is healing. Only when he accepts what has happened to him will he be able to use his abilities for the good of humanity. Bran’s impassiveness is not that he doesn’t care, but that he has healed and now can face everything and can care about everything without taking himself into account, without putting himself and his suffering above all else.
This was not made clear in the show. They tried, but it came out weird and made him look like an apathetic emo. The characterizations I’ve read about him: google search machine, big brother and so many others show that people didn’t understand this arc. I barely figured it myself when someone made the connection to the Fisher King. (which does not belong to the lore of my country so I don’t have first hand knowledge of it).
In this context it makes sense that Bran is king of Westeros, but I still have doubts that it will be so in the books because he seems connected to the North and Winter anyway and he is the legitimate heir of Winterfell.
His line in season 7 “I can’t be lord of WF; I can’t be lord of anything now” doesn’t align with him ending up king of six kingdoms to which he has no connection whatsoever. It seems to me that they were careless with their own scripts at best.
I am also thinking that they swapped with Jon, meaning that they sent Jon to the Wall for not being accused of enhancing, or furthering sexist tropes, ie man killing woman by rewarding that male murderer.
In any case, there are two or three “broad strokes” of the ending that will be in the books as well. One of them is that Daenerys ends up dead, killed by Jon; the other that the Starks will rule it all, that all three of them are kings/queen; and a third, two kingsoms, since that’s ASOIAF was all about in the first place, the independence of the North (I believe it will be with Bran instaed of Sansa).
Oh is the site accepting replies again? Ok, 3rd attempt.
I’m so silly to forget Arianne, I’m going around saying that she will marry fAegon and I totally forgot about her. She would be in the perfect position. On a personal level Brienne would be the most satisfying, imagine Cersei’s outrage at Jaime choosing ‘that great cow’ over her, probably won’t happen, but it would be brilliant if it did, I don’t think George is that kind to me though. It could also lead to the Valonqar as I’m not convinced Brienne survives this thing.
Efi,
Yes, I have the same issue with Bran, and I admittedly don’t understand his storyline, however I refuse to take the blame on this one lol. I managed to spot Dany’s end back in Season 4/ADWD so I do pay attention honest. They did not set this up, and even had him state that he couldn’t rule anything anymore. I subscribe to the 3ER is evil theory because it makes sense and fills in the blanks, even though I know it is incorrect. I often think about the dragon pit scene, where I think they failed spectacularly to justify Bran as King. It was about 3 episodes crammed into one scene.
GRRM always criticised LoTR because we never found out about Aragorn’s system of government, and they went and did it in GOT. I don’t blame them for that though, they obviously just didn’t have the answer, and perhaps that’s why they struggled to delve into it in any depth, even his training in the North, I bet they knew nowt about it. They do have my sympathy on this one, but it doesn’t make it any better. This is why I am hoping for the books, I know and accept most of the endings but I need more supporting material.
* Sorry if this comment appears twice, my other comment is in moderation as I put a video link in it. If this doesn’t work I officially give up.
Efi, His line in season 7 “I can’t be lord of WF; I can’t be lord of anything now” doesn’t align with him ending up king of six kingdoms to which he has no connection whatsoever. It seems to me that they were careless with their own scripts at best.
Yeah I wondered about that. Then he say’why do you think I came all this way” Totally off. +
The writing for the Bran character is so bad that it is unbelievable. He storyline should be different for about 3 seasons to get to the point where he is even a contender for the throne. They seemed have decided that a “fake-out” end was amusing. Or as NCW said ….it had to end and that was an end.
Even in S8, Bran was portrayed as low functioning autistic – the teenage mutant to Arya’s teenage ninja. I have seen a poster on this site say that Bran is “philosopher” king and that gave me a clue into the delusions that must be needed to think this was a great ending. Isaac Hempstead did not suggest any such grand activity by Bran as he said Bran was just chilling.
An computer all-seeing king would be a dystopian end and I would not be happy with the implications for human efforts in our lives. But Bran was not even portrayed as clever. So it was both dystopian and nihilistic.
Mango,
Yeah, it’s the main reason why I think they swapped with Jon. If they knew he’d be king of Westeros when they talked with Martin (after season 4 if I’m not mistaken) they’d (probably) make sure to do better by Bran’s character and they’d (probably) include IHR in season 5.
Funny thing, I was reading these days about Martin asking D&D who was Jon’s mother before deciding to trust them with the adaptation. Of course they knew (it’s rather easy). Someone said he should have asked them about the thematology of ASOIAF and went on to explain they didn’t get the clash of power, personal arcs, side-stories and lore and literary tropes straighforward or inverted.
The main complaint in this was Jon’s “arc” (it wasn’t a real arc in seasons 7-8), meaning that they turned him into a fool (often repeated “the northern fool”), one’s in-universe joke (to joke about even his height, I’d add, which is mean even in-universe and KH is a real person and not that short where I come from), while all along he’d be the perfect grey hero, a hero with questionable morals, a semi-criminal but still a hero. Which is the entire story of ASOIAF, questionning motives, morals, actions, characters, reasons.
I think charging D&D with not knowing their material which they did discuss over and over with Martin is a very harsh critique; in the end, I think it’s more fair to charge them with making particular conscious choices than with not knowing their material. They made these choices with very specific things in mind, limited time, making Dany the face of the show, sexism allegations that might have ensued, etc., and based on earlier choices, eg. teasing “dark Sansa” instead of “dark Jon”, making Arya an emo killer, making Daenerys sweeter than she is in the books etc. (ok, that last one because EC is effortlessly sweet herself)
Some of these choices were even fan-based, i.e. what the fans liked was adapted in the show to further its popularity. It’s understandable, because they’re in the money-making business and there’s strategic marketing behind it, but it limited their creativity choices. Thus they lost the great story that it is in the books and they missed the opportunity that GOT would be remembered for many, many years ahead as a complete and fulfilling story instead of being remembered just for its visuals and stunning direction.
Sidenote 1: already most people don’t want to remember it let alone watch it again, and many readers have declared their intention to wait for others’ reactions before reading the new books because they think based on earlier statements that the ending and in particular the characters’ ending is the same — and these reactions are independent from what the industry will do, how it will see back on GOT from now on, or how many emmys it’ll get.
Sidenote 2: Now that I think about it considering that Ygritte in the books is a stand-in for Sansa, the fact that Jon kills her in his dream on the battlements of WF may not just be a recreation of his own trauma, but also teasing “dark Jon” and him “killing”, i.e. sidelining the lawfull heir (to his understanding) since he has been repeating over and over to Stannis “WF belongs to my sister Sansa”.
(gee, again too long! sigh)
Jenny,
Lol, did they ban us from this page or what? It was frustrating!
I had a reply for you about AA, but it vanished. Imo AA is Daenerys and the “fiery sword” Jon holds in his last dream, where he’s armored with black ice i.e. dragonglass, is Dany’s dragon. In this dream, there is no indication about others fighting with him, meaning there is no indication that Dany will help him apart from that, the dragonglass and the dragon. (but I can’t be sure about this last one; I suppose it’s left ambiguous in the books on purpose).
I’d like to hear about your objections to the evil 3eyed raven theory. I object too, but frankly I have no arguments apart from how is it possible to have someone evil take over Westeros and call that “bittersweet”? It doesn’t make any sense and book-wise there is no indication that evil Blackraven will win.
I think the “tax policy” was half-addressed in seasons 7 and 8, where they ditched it in the eps 3-6 because they had other boxes to tick. The queens are foils to each other and we get to see that.
Cersei doesn’t give a damn (established through the seasons, lol). Breadriots etc.
Daenerys doesn’t care (yeah, dragons eat whatever they want//how much? just 18 goats and 13 sheep? poor little things, they’ve lost their appetite!).
Also, Dany burns all the harvest from the Reach in 7.4 which plotwise ended up to… nothing at all, well, apart from showing us that she functions on the logic of “if I can’t have it to feed my soldiers, then Cersei won’t have it either”.
Sansa saves supplies from all over the North and makes arrangements for winter. Which makes it understandable that when Daenerys arrives with two large dragons it comes to her biting “what do dragons eat, anyway”? She meant to feed people, not dragons.
It could lead to a meaningful clash between them about supplies and logistics, but they used it to instill suspicion in Dany’s mind about Sansa’s intentions, just like they did with everything/everyone else in season 8.
Plot-wise it is not logical to have two armies march/sail North without supplies, without not even a hint of the Dothraki plundering their way through. I’d also expect from Tyrion to respond to Sansa, e.g.
“no worries, Sans, we brought our own goats!”
or at least
“well, the sea is not too far away, they’ll feed from the whales”, or sth.
Instead: “if she can’t respect me….”
Well it’s clear why it was made such a big deal with “what do dragons eat anyway”.
In a logical place where stories would be as they should I’d also expect the council to address the issue of food supplies in anyway possible. But nope! Ships, masters of whispers and brothels are far more important. (Dany killed most of the inhabitants of the city, so why bother?)
Efi,
Oh I do endorse the Bran is evil theory, even though I know it’s wrong. No way would GRRM create a dystopian surveillance state and call it bittersweet, we’ve got Westeros’ answer to Big Brother on the throne. And when he dies it’s almost a guaranteed civil war. I remember thinking after the episode aired, about everything Bran had done since becoming the 3ER, and it felt a bit sinister to me (partly because of the way Isaac played him). He set things in motion after giving Arya the knife, that did Littlefinger, and was then used to take out poor misunderstood NK. 3ER survives, and now his main threat is Dany. So he tells Sam to tell Jon, at that specific moment, for what? It only caused a rift between her and Jon. He’s seen the dragon above KL before, and does nothing to stop it, in fact he contributed by having Sam blab to Jon. So now she and Jon are out of the way, and then he says ‘why do you think I came all this way?’ I was like WTF!!!!??????? He’s EVIL lol.
That can’t have been the intention, but I don’t know what we were supposed to take from it. Having Bran as an advisor to a council of rulers makes sense, though it’s still creepy. Him having the best story (which isn’t even true) is not a basis for government. Honestly this is the one thing that I am just NOPE about, I genuinely don’t understand it at all. I have yet to see a fan explanation that fits better than puppet master Bran.
Jenny,
“poor misunderstood NK” ????
wtf???? I’ll be laughing forever, don’t say such things!
No, seriously (still laughing), the 3eyed raven inhabits the body of an albino Targ (thus resembling the weirwood trees), and there are those who say that that Targ was always ambitious and that in this context perhaps he’d want to occupy the throne, which he lost once from his own hands.
Brandon says in 8.2:
“He (the NK) has tried before, with many 3eyed ravens”.
The way I see this line is that the NK wants to kill the 3eyed raven, not just the body of whoever hosts it (him? hm… what is the 3eyed raven anyway?).
In this context whatever ambitions the host had before becoming the 3eyed raven don’t matter, and the intentions of the 3eyed raven are far from clear. I suppose we are also to speculate that the Targ would have to go through the same healing process that Bran does, abandoning his own desires and ambitions for becoming the 3eyed raven, just like Bran has to abandon his wish to walk and become a knight, or lord.
So perhaps it doesn’t fit that there is some secret ambition regarding the IT per se, because it would contradict the essence of this arc, healing and acquiring understanding beyond human nature.
This of course doesn’t exclude that the 3eyed raven does have a plan for humanity, but it would raise the question: if he does, why does it have to go through human universe to be accomplished and thus get entangled with all the baseness of humanity? What purpose would that serve in-universe and what would be the meaning, the message for the readers?
In the show the poor misunderstood NK kills the 3eyed raven, who inhabits Bran next . I suppose how it will all evolve depends on whether he’ll be killed in the books too (he rather will). But Bran will return to the real world anyway and we’ll have to see how much of his humanity he preserves after returning. In the books Bran is a very sweet boy, everybody loves him and he brings joy and happiness to those around him, it’ll be a shame if none of it remains.
People have said it in this site that that’s the point, that he doesn’t want, doesn’t desire, so he can be “objective” and above all human worries, but how can he stop others from looking after their own interests? I don’t get it. As it is, I wouldn’t even give Bran’s life span for the next revolution to start. It’d start the next day of his proclamation.
Phew, it’s so problematic!
Efi,
It gets a bit murky because there is no NK in the books, do the others have a specific motive? And the 3ER doesn’t exist in the books either (yet), Bran meets Brynden Rivers (a Targ bastard) who is also known as the Bloodraven and later the Three Eyed Crow, and some people do think that he is an antagonist tricking Bran to steal his body. As Old nan used to say, ‘all crows are liars’. He was probably lured by the Children of the Forest, when he ventured beyond the wall as a member of the NW. Ugh, its too complicated, this video is great and super in depth, it even touches on AA, Dany and Euron. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oEqnDAbCfE
So the question remains, how the f*ck is GRRM getting this guy on the throne, and have it be a positive thing? This one will be fascinating, and I think it’s the plot that has the furthest to go before we get to the end. The show plot is a simplified good vs evil, which is why Bran on the throne makes no sense.
I have seen people describe Bran’s objectivity, and lack of interest as a positive trait, but can’t that be applied to Ned? And Stannis? It worked a treat for them didn’t it? Surely Yara is sailing home as we speak to muster her forces, Dany promised her independence after all.
Jenny,
I suppose it’s one of the conspiracy theories about ASOIAF. The point is that Martin has said it’s a work on power and its handling (magic is kind of accidental, lol), which we see through the various contestants and non-contestants of the throne, and not just the throne. We see Robert, Renly, Stannis, Cersei, the Greyjoys (all of them, they’re many, bless them), Dany, and in addition we see Ned, Robb, Jon, Tyrion, Jamie, Varys and LF (i’m sure I’m forgetting someone), and of course in the show we see Sansa (I don’t think that this Sansa of seasons 6-8 has much to do with her book character). Some of them are ambitious and really like to hold power and actually “be powerfull”, others don’t. In this context making an ambitious Targ king of the six kingdoms doesn’t make sense –now that I think about it why would such an abitious person even allow one of the kingdoms -the largest- to secede?
There is no NK in the books, but Hardhome has not happened yet (and there’s a fleet going Jon’s way). So there’s a chance that there’ll be one in the books too. In any case Bran has to leave the cave.
In the books if I’m not mistaken it is written somewhere that not all the chosen to be the next 3eyed crow (or raven) were up to it, and many failed, or couldn’t take it. Wouldn’t this precondition a kind of free and strong will, which would exclude the possibility that one maintains his ambition while being the 3eyed crow? I’m not saying that he’s benevolent or a “good” force, only that it’s contradictive.
All crows are liars. Jon? (I wish we’d have book Jon in the show)
Jenny,
Oh, perhaps then if crows are liars Bran figures out that Bloodraven is a liar and manages to escape, keeping his humanity but also his newly acquired abilities of greenseeing?
That wouldn’t be a bad outcome. Maybe it’s one of Martin’s big twists. It could go hand in hand with Jon decouncing his claim on the throne. But on the other hand it wouldn’t help Bran’s ascent to the throne either.
I’m at a loss; dead end, lol.
Efi,
Efi,
I’m not sure how the transfer of power works, I’ve seen a theory that the 3 Eyed Crow is actually controlled by the children. He calls himself the first greenseer, but Brynden Rivers is only 125 years old, and that skill goes back thousands of years I think (?) so he can’t be the first person to become the 3 Eyed Crow, and he could be under the control of the children. Maybe….. LOL I don’t know. When Bran is dreaming, he is told to fly, and below him there are spikes with skeletons skewered on them, so there must have been others before both of them, those that failed to awaken their powers and fell.
In the show, it’s hard to tell how much of Bran is left, is it even Bran anymore, or is it entirely the 3ER? It’s almost as if he is possessed. Perhaps that’s why they made the OG 3ER a nice Obi-Wan Kenobi type figure, to remove that concern. The show doesn’t give the 3ER the Brynden Rivers backstory, that would have made him seem evil.
In the book, we’ve got Cold Hands feeding Bran human flesh, which is probably Jojen’s body, ew. So I think you are right, perhaps Bran realises and defeats the 3 Eyed Crow, takes his powers and calls himself the 3 Eyed Raven instead. Crows are carrion birds, it’s not coincidence that the NW are called crows as an insult, and AFFC is all about people dealing with the aftermath of war. But even Raven’s are bad omen’s at least in Greek Myth, they are associated with Apollo, the God of prophecy, and they are his messengers. 3 Ravens together means he’s watching. I’m so far down this rabbit hole now lol. But yeah, Bran should come out with his humanity in tact, rather than as a host for whatever the f*ck is in that cave. In that video I posted, he reckons that the 3 Eyed Crow is actually trying to save humanity, and he does tell Bran that he will play a big role in defeating the others, but the 3EC will do it using any method, even very bad ones, that will have consequences as it does for all of the characters.
I’m not sure about the NK, Mel calls him the great other, he was a God defeated by AA, so the NK is probably a stand in. I kind of picture him like Sauron, some kind of malevolent entity, plus an eye. Maybe he will take on a physical form, but I don’t think he will be the NK, if anything the NK is working for him. I feel so out of my depth, I’m laughing as I type this. Actually I’ll be honest Bran’s chapters are my least favourite, now that I know his end, I really need to reread his ADWD chapters.
Oh and I totally expect Jon to spend half of Winds warged into Ghost, the prologue to ADWD had that horrible guy thinking he would die and live on in his wolf, seemed like an obvious foreshadowing. I miss book Jon too, he was a sassy bitch.
For some reason I didn’t receive any email notification that this article had been posted:-(
GRRM not saying anything too much here but pretty clear we won’t see Winds this year, but possibly next year? I’m planning to start reading the Dunk & Egg stories in the coming weeks hopefully that ties me over until the spin off and Winds next year.
Millions of people who hated GOT S8, where did you get that figure from? I don’t know anyone who hated it, but I’ve read some criticism online only. The only real place we know it was panned was IMDB and we know there was a coordinated attack to lower the scores on there. I won’t say S8 is perfect, in fact I’ve not gone back and watched it since it all ended but I prefer it to S7 and S5.
Ps can we no longer subscribe to threads on Watchers anymore? The buttons seem to have vanished when using Google Chrome.