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Tonight, Game of Thrones returned for another season of mayhem, heartbreak and shattered expectations. “The Red Woman” was a wild ride, from start to finish. Here’s where we break it down for you!
Spoiler Note: This post is for those who have read the A Song of Ice and Fire series. The post and the comments section will contain spoilers from the novels! Because no, we are not all Unsullied now. If you haven’t read the books yet, please check out our non-book-reader recap. Thanks!
Ten months after we watched the men of the Night’s Watch commit a terrible act of betrayal against their Lord Commander, we pick up right where we left off: on the haunting image of Jon Snow’s bled-out corpse. The stomach-curdling howl of his direwolf Ghost can be heard as the camera pans from the icy Wall down to the remnants of Jon. The question is answered, if you still were in doubt: Jon Snow is dead.
The sun comes up, and Davos Seaworth discovers Snow’s body in the courtyard, with the TRAITOR sign still tacked up over him. Dolorous Edd and a handful of loyal men help him pull Jon’s body inside and they quickly realize that Ser Alliser Thorne has to be to blame for the crime.
Melisandre joins them and taken aback at seeing Jon dead, says, “I saw him in the flames fighting at Winterfell.” The priestess already seems shaken by Stannis’s loss; this further strike at her gift of reading the flames raises more questions. She was wrong about Stannis being the king and marching on to victory. What does this mean for her vision for Jon? She retreats from the room, and based on her later actions, I think she is going to be proactive about her visions, in the way she always has been. Only the cost may be far more for her this time, instead of her laying waste to those in her fiery path.
In the meeting hall, Thorne surprisingly owns up to the bloody deed in front of the entire Night’s Watch, though Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyck are less proud of the murder. Thorne talks the men into believing that what he did was right, due to Jon’s favorable treatment of the wildlings. Playing on their distrust and hatred for the people from beyond the Wall, he quiets the outrage over their dead commander, and secures his power base.
Locked in the room with the body, Davos and Dolorous Edd strategize on how to proceed. In his grief, Edd is ready to go Wild Bunch on the mutineers, until Davos points out that the wildlings can be used to fight against their opponents. Edd ducks out and now Davos is left stalling for time.
At Winterfell, Ramsay mourns his dearly departed torture girlfriend Myranda, whom he’s known since they were children. (For those who have forgotten, Theon tossed her over the railing to her death in the season 5 finale.) In a surprisingly heartfelt moment, he fondly recalls her fearlessness and swears to inflict pain on those who killed her. Just in case we were starting to think he has a heart, Ramsay then callously suggests throwing her body to the hounds since she’s “good meat.” Glad we didn’t get too sentimental there, Ramsay!
Afterward, Roose keeps Ramsay’s ego in check regarding the destruction of Stannis’ army by reminding him he’s lost Sansa (the Stark connection) and Theon (the Ironborn heir). He threatens Ramsay’s status by reminding him that his wife Walda is likely carrying a boy. You know, I don’t think this will end well for old Roose. There aren’t exactly bonds of familial love keeping him from murdering his dad. Their lengthiest conversations have consisted of “You’re a screw-up, kiddo and “Have I ever told you how I raped your mother?” stories. For a man known for his cold cunning, Roose is displaying an odd blind eye when it comes to his son.
On the run from Ramsay’s men, Sansa and Theon are forced to cross an icy river to dodge the hounds of the Bolton soldiers. It’s snowing and the two of them are staggering and suffering even after they escape the dogs. Huddled under a fallen tree, Theon warms Sansa in his arms.
But not for long- the hounds have caught scent of their trail. Reek disappearing more by the minute, Theon offers himself up as the sacrifice to try to lead them away from Sansa. Unfortunately, the Bolton soldiers aren’t buying it, and they easily find Sansa roughly five feet away, underneath the tree. They’re screwed- but no, it’s Brienne ex machina!
Brienne charges into the fight and slashes through the men, with Pod providing some not-terrible assistance. Theon grabs a fallen sword, as the other two fight the remaining soldiers. As Pod loses his sword fight with one man and appears doomed (I can’t believe this kid hasn’t at least lost a limb yet), Theon sneaks up from behind and kills the man.
The danger past, Brienne seizes the moment to present herself to Sansa once again. She lays her sword down and offers her services to her lady. The women exchange oaths (does that sound like a wedding? I don’t care), vowing to serve and provide a place for one another, and it’s goddamn beautiful. Even chilled and soaked, Sansa is the consummate lady, performing her duties to the best of her ability. The lady who wanted to believe in an honorable knight, and Brienne, the young woman who only wanted to find a worthy and noble person to serve. Catelyn would be so proud of both of them.
News arrives that a Dornish ship is docking in King’s Landing, and it hurts so much to see Cersei happily running to greet her daughter’s ship. She’s been through hell in the last few months and finally there’s a ray of light breaking through the clouds- her daughter has come home. Except on the ship, there is only a body escorted by the girl’s father.
Later Cersei mourns, recalling morbid thoughts of her mother’s death when she was a child. She wonders how a woman like her could have produced a girl as good and sweet as Myrcella; Cersei knows she is jealous and mean. It seems as though Cersei may be as harsh about herself as other people are on her. She is haunted by Maggy the Frog’s prophecy now that a second child has fallen. Predictably practical and blunt, Jaime says fuck the prophecy but Cersei is spooked. She has one child left- and his crown is gold. Will there be a shroud for him this season?
Look at the show’s track record so far- Joffrey in season 4, Myrcella in season 5- I would be shocked if Tommen makes it out of season 6 alive.
Elsewhere in the city, our bell-ringing friend Septa Unella has moved on to pestering Margaery in prison this year. The High Sparrow interrupts their chat to see if the young queen is interested in confessing yet. But Margaery is very much like Cersei was last year- she is the queen, insisting on her privilege and title, and she just wants to see her family. Her pride is still intact. But the Sparrows will work on her as they did Cersei. Margaery is cunning however, and she may find a way out of this bind yet.
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In Dorne, Doran Martell and Ellaria reminisce about his brother Oberyn. Her daughter Tyene Sand accompanies her, as the group chats, there in the Water Gardens. Just then as they speak, a messenger brings word of Myrcella’s death and Ellaria knows it’s time to act. Tyene quickly stabs Areo Hotah in the back, killing the bodyguard, and Ellaria takes down Doran, stabbing him in the front (is that more courteous than the back?).
Ellaria explains her motivations and the inactions of the other guards around them- he doesn’t know his people, his own people who hate that he didn’t act to revenge Oberyn or Elia Martell. Doran will not be their prince, and neither will Trystane.
The young man is currently on a Dornish ship close to King’s Landing, by the look of it. We see Trystane painting eye stones- for Myrcella, I assume. He doesn’t look that heartbroken, to be honest so maybe it’s just an arts and crafts project. Then his Sand Snake cousins Nymeria and Obara join him and make plain their intentions. The prince shows courage and tries to fight them but when he steps up to fight Nym, Obara stabs him in the back of the head.
What can I say about the Dornish scenes that won’t sound like bitter book wankery? I’m a very relaxed ASOIAF reader when it comes to the adaptation, but I thought these scenes were stupid. Oberyn would hate these people who are so disloyal to their own family. The Oberyn we’ve seen on the show, I mean, in addition to the one in the books. I find it hard to believe Areo Hotah could be such a poor head guard, completely unaware of the goings-on at the Water Gardens if an uprising of sorts was in the works. And then killed with one small knife in the back, without fighting back at all. It seems like a waste of Alexander Siddig and DeObia Oparei and I’m left shaking my head at it.
If anyone doubts that Areo Hotah is dead, you can see the confirmation in the HBO Viewer’s Guide which has a 100% track record so far for death reporting accuracy. I also found it odd that it wasn’t until I looked at Trystane’s entry that it explained why he was still on the ship. What a confusing mess:
It didn’t work, and it felt almost like the writers were unhappy with last year’s Dornish storyline and so they decided to wipe out several players to simply clean the slate. I would not be surprised to see the rest of the Dorne group dispatched quickly this year, leaving behind hardly any effect on any plot.
Moving on…
Over in Meereen, Tyrion and Varys walk the streets of the city, giving money to a starving mother and coming across the infamous “Kill the Masters” graffiti now added to (in the common tongue again) with “Mhysa is a master.” The people are not happy- Daenerys has vanished and the Sons of the Harpy are still around. A red priest preaches to the people, and as Tyrion and Varys wander through the city, they review politics- Varys’s little birds are on the hunt for the Harpies’ leader.
Remember last year when Daario acquired a fleet of ships and we thought that these were replacement for the Iron Fleet? Apparently not. Tyrion and Varys discover the fleet of ships, the ones meant to bring Dany and her army back to Westeros, have been put to the torch.
Meanwhile Daario and Jorah’s search for Daenerys has led them into the Dothraki Sea, with the men able to track Drogon’s trail of scorched bones leftover from his meals. Jorah’s greyscale is spreading, which is inconvenient because both he and Daario would like to grow old and see Dany rule the world. (I’m guessing they’re both doomed now that they’ve had this conversation.) Jorah, naturally, finds the ring left behind, and he recognizes the patterns in the grass of a Dothraki horde.
Held captive by the khalasar she encountered in season 5, Daenerys is forced to walk along- well, we don’t know where. The Dothraki riders Qhono and Ahko talk like a couple of frat boys about the woman they don’t realize can speak Dothraki. Once the khalasar makes camp, the men present Daenerys to the leader, Khal Moro.
This is not the Daenerys who first met the Dothraki in season 1. Faced with a new khal who treats her like property, she rattles of her list of titles. Very impressive, Dany. And then everyone has a good laugh because there’s just something about that ridiculously long list of titles.
Daenerys finally drops the magic words: Khal Drogo. Khal Moro’s demeanor changes as he respects her as a widow of a khal. Accordingly, she will be brought to Vaes Dothrak to live out the remainder of her life. Even the Dothraki wives agree that sounds terrible, but compared to the snarky sexual harassment that was on the menu earlier, Vaes Dothrak is a step in the right direction. From there, among the widowed women, Dany can choose her next step with more control.
Further west, on the edge of Essos, blind Arya is currently playing the role of beggar in the streets of Braavos when she’s paid a visit by the Waif. Despite her blindness, it seems her lessons are continuing, as the Waif throws her a stick and forces Arya into a rather one-sided fight. The sparring is very reminiscent of early scenes in kung-fu movies, when the harsh master beats on the student. I suppose eventually we’ll see Arya earn her grudging respect? Or maybe Arya’ll just hit her with a stick a lot. That seems like Arya’s style.
Back at the Wall, Alliser Thorne approaches the room where Davos and the loyal few are still guarding Jon, and tries to negotiate amnesty for them if they’ll open the door. Davos stalls for time- he knows damn well that Thorne isn’t going to let any of them live. They can’t go anywhere until Dolorous Edd returns with help from the wildlings. There’s always the possibility of the Red Woman lending a hand. Though the other Night’s Watchmen don’t understand how she can help, Davos knows what she is capable of.
So he thinks. He doesn’t even know the half of it.
Alone in her room, Melisandre studies her youthful, beautiful reflection, her face covered in sorrow. She disrobes, takes away the fiery gem at her throat. Looking into the reflection once again we see that the illusion, the glamour has fallen away. Melisandre has become a wrinkled, very old woman. Her red hair now white and sparse, her body loose and wrinkled, we see this is what she looks like without her magic disguising her.
She sadly turns away from the mirror and slips into bed.
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A few more assorted thoughts:
Highlights
The scenes with Davos were very strong. I like how he is expanding- it’s as if Davos is developing his owner leadership abilities, now that he’s stepping out of Stannis’s shadow.
Alliser Thorne is just a royal ass, isn’t he, but Owen Teale is a wonderful actor. You can really see how Thorne believes his own bull.
The music for Theon and Sansa’s dash through the woods and river was a particular highlight for me.
Brienne and Sansa’s moment had me in tears, both times I watched it. Beautiful work from Sophie Turner and Gwendoline Christie.
Melisandre’s glamour confirmed and comes down- Mel’s advanced age is alluded to in A Dance with Dragons, but to actually see her glamour fall away was pretty amazing. Well done, and good work by Carice van Houten throughout the episode.
Misses
Dorne is a big miss, and I’m not sure there’s a way to come back from it, in regards to this storyline. It’s a disappointment, as I was incredibly excited by Alexander Siddig’s casting and I’ve always been a fan of Indira Varma’s work.
The overall tone of the episode was somewhat erratic, with several very good scenes that didn’t quite fit together as one flowing episode. That said, as a season premiere to set up the season ahead it certainly works and it kicked things off in an exciting way.
hodor?
I’m a little surprised by book readers being surprised about Mel. It’s been a while since I read the books but didn’t we learn about her age and backstory, being a slave in Essos, in ADwD?
Why was Davos looking at Jons blood in a curious way?
Dorne is an utter travesty. There is nothing else anyone can say. It literally no longer makes any sense. Are we expected to believe that Dorne will now rally behind the bastard born paramour of a 2nd son and his illegitimate daughters who have just flat murdered their legitimate Ruler and heir?
The whole Dorne plot post Season 4 has been an exercise in character assassination both in a literal and metaphorical sense. Ill be fast forwarding those bits in future because its just become to ridiculous to bother with. Really really unimpressed with that part
My actual reaction to the Dorne scenes:
I gaped at my computer screen, paused my HBO Now stream, and just stared for about 5 minutes.
….then I heard myself quietly moan, “Adam Friedberg has won“.
….without exaggeration then I spent another 10 minutes curled up in a ball whimpering something along the lines of “we’re small men….we’re small men….nothing works and we can’t fix it….we’re small….small men….”
Something along those lines.
Then I sobered up.
Overall, I wouldn’t recommend it.
Connor,
I saw on a recap it resembles a dragon but i certainly don’t see it
Hexonx,
Indeed, there’s even an interview with Carice back in Season 2 when she herself said that Mel was meant to be over a hundred years old, so not sure why ‘fans’ are so surprised by it.
I must be in the minority here, but the Dorne parts were actually my favourite in this episode. It definitely has big consequences for the rest of the season.
Tori Targaryen,
probably because fans don’t read or memorize every single interview?
I’m don’t understand why they didn’t include Bran in the premiere. It seems like Brans return should be a big deal and more fit for a premiere than episode 2. A heavily hyped up premiere episode like this would have benefited from a cool Bran scene or vision. His reintroduction would have worked perfectly as a cold open or finale scene for the premiere. It was a wasted opportunity.
1 – he lost a lot of blood, 2 – it was frozen. He’d been there a while – which is not good, he bled out a while ago.
They killed the wrong Dornishpeople. GOD DAMN SAND SNAKES.
Can’t wait for Jon and Mel to hook up.
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Mel should wake up from her nap and do some magic to help Davos, since he’s been hyping her so much.
Dorne was dumb.
Was this the first time that Dany’s supposed infertility was alluded to?
GoT is back yall! I enjoyed the episode even Dorne even if it’s only because it will be streamlined without the elaborate decades long scheming from the book. Let’s get down to the nitty gritty and get some main character interaction, plot moving forward towards an end game, and more deaths…and a couple more resurrections I wager
I really loved the episode overall, but what happened in Dorne was a travesty. Oberyn would’ve never been down with the muder of his brother and nephew like that. He was all about family. And I long for book Ellaria. The only one among the Martells who was a voice of reason and spoke against the cycle of vengeance. The Sansa/Theon/Brienne/Pod scene had me at the edge of my seat. And someone finally referred to Edd as Delorous Edd! Edd was so badass this episode, as was Davos. And finally, that last scene with Mel has me speechless. True, I kinda suspected it because the books (and show) alluded to it, but how the reveal was delivered was really creepy and just perfect. That’s one theory confirmed! How many more will be confirmed by the end of this season?? I still have my money on HS=HR.
Oh. ._.
Look, hopefully the Dornish scene was just to wrap it up so we don’t see it anymore. D&D originally planned not to do the Dornish plot at all. Only when it was suggested they send Jamie there did they write one, probably also due to Oberyn’s popularity. There was never any intention to do the book plot from Feast or Dance. Frankly I take the view it’s better to leave it out entirely then butcher it like they did.
I totally agree that the scene was rubbish, in an otherwise pretty good premier. It would have been better if they didn’t bother with Dorne in season 5 at all and spent that time and money on setting up the Ironborn plot or Stoneheart plot last year so there could be more pay off this year. Can you imagine if they did the Ironborn Essos stuff from Dance last season and did the Winds of Winter stuff this year? That would have been so much better.
This rushed scene is atrocious, don’t get me wrong, but I rejoice in the thought that we may possibly not get anymore Dorne in the show. I really hope I’m right and the storyline fades into obscurity like Asha/Yara’s scene in season 4. Let’s hope also that D&D do a good job with everything else.
PS. How the fuck did the Sand Snakes catch up to Trystane? They were on the shore as the boat floated away. Oh I don’t care about Dorne anymore anyway…
The question now, where did Melisandre come from? Asshai? Doubt it. Her advanced age explains why she is a bit off. She is the best of her order; what order? I had always thought she was an old red priestess that witnessed the Long Night and this explained her intense focus on Azor Ahai
I thought the scenes with Sansa/Theon were beautifully done. Her saying the same words as her mother to Brienne was also really touching, especially with the help of the brilliant swordsman who slays the ladies, Podrick. I can’t help but love that kid.
Hexonx,
We learned some of her history, it it was implied she may be older than she looks, but it was never actually revealed. Either way, like the article says, it was still pretty incredible to actually see it play out.
Absolutely LOVED the Brienne and Sansa scene. Got me all choked up and everything. As a whole, I really enjoyed the entire episode. Most surprising to me was that it was FUNNY. Tyrion/Varys with the baby, Khal and his bloodrider; even Davos/Thorne made us laugh. For this show, humor is few and far between so I was surprised it was as funny as it was.
As some of you have seen I was holding out vague hope that the mutiny would be explained as due to the Boltons. Instead they confirmed it was just wildlings.
But it was odd that they even put the confrontation to let them through *in the teaser itself*, highlighting in the TV version that Thorne chose to let him pass through.
In which case, why kill Jon for letting wildlings through the Wall….after letting him through the Wall?
Now the only respectable counter-argument I’ve heard is “Thorne didn’t think he could openly turn on Jon at the time in broad daylight”
Well:
1 – If that was their intent the show didn’t highlight it enough
2 – This episode has about 40 of the 50 men in the castle stated to be on Thorne’s side, and it was always at least half
3 – If he couldn’t get away with it at the time….what does killing Jon now accomplish?
Most bizarrely, did you notice that Benioff and Weiss give entirely contradictory statements about Thorne’s motivations in the “Inside the episode” featurette?
Weiss starts by saying that it was because Thorne always hated Jon, it was selfish and due to his grudge against the wildlings…..only for the camera to cut immediately to Benioff, who then says it was like the Julius Caesar assassination, in that they *selflessly* killed him because they truly felt they were in the right and he was going to destroy the Watch.
So….which is it?
Combined with I don’t know who was running the Dorne subplot….
I’m not sure how well things are being communicated in a writing staff that consists of only 4 people.
What we have here is….failure to communicate.
Mel saw Jon in the flames, fighting at Winterfell.
Mel thinks all of the visions are a lie, but what if they aren’t? She was following the wrong person, it’s Jon.
Cmoooon get him rezzed already.
The Drowned Goddess,
I predict a Sanpod ship arriving in the future lol.
House Applebee,
Set reports actually confirm we’re getting a substantial number of Dorne scenes this year.
Sue, I honestly am in complete agreement of your review. I found the Ramsay/Myranda scene very well done, and Roose really dropped the ball which is rather weird. Edd, Theon, Ghost and Davos get my nod this episode. 🙂
I wonder if Carice underwent hours of prosthetics and makeup, or if it was mainly CGI or another actor? Beautiful and lonely moment.
The Dragon Demands,
Well in that case I’ll delude myself saying “Well the report could be false”.
Please just let me feel the good feels why I have them. It’s too depressing to think of Dorne being a major part of season 6.
In a funny way I suppose it makes some sort of sense
The actual coup for me isn’t too terrible (although Trystane was on a ship? Confusing). What I dislike was how cruel Obara and Nymeria were with Trystane before killing him, and then getting into a spat about who should have killed him. I mean, that was their cousin. I feel like if they just had a tiny but of nuance to their angry revenge quest they’d be so much more interesting and watchable as characters. Instead, the more we see them, the more two dimensional they seem and the less likeable they are.
Doran’s death was fine mostly. I liked that they showed how his guard’s didn’t care, they all wanted war and lost patience with their peaceful leader. Could have been built up to better I guess and it’s still frustrating how under developed Doran was last year, but him actually being killed by Ellaria was fine. I think the fundamental flaw with the storyline generally is the flatness of Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, and it doesn’t help that Doran was the only interesting character from there, so really any plot point that leaves the Sand Snakes alive, no matter how interesting, will be kinda irritating.
You guys should check out Maisie’s Instagram. She did something really cool for a group of fans tonight.
I liked scene in Dorne and I think Indira Varma was great in it. I expect she will be the one to ally with Dany.
I haven’t read the Dorne storyline from the books yet, but man, I still can recognize when something is bad handled.
It was like eating one of your favorites meals, enjoying every bite you take, then you start to taste something bad like a, rat shit for example, and then having the urge to vomite because it was so disgusting. And after all that you can’t eat it anymore the same way you did before because now it might taste like shit.
If everyone is wondering, that’s how I felt watching this episode.
I loved the episode. No scene was a miss for me. Once I realized that Doran had no plans whatsoever beyond trying to suck up to the Lannisters, I was happy he was killed; he had become an ineffective leader. I don’t like Ellaria and the Sand Snakes for being kinslayers, but I fully understand why they did it.
Sansa, Theon, Brienne and Pod, Tyrion and Varys, Daenerys and Khal Moro, were very good. I loved how Alliser Thorne won over the majority of the NW’s to his line of thinking. That was a surprise for me.
And Mel and her glamor. I wonder why exactly that was introduced, and how that will affect Episode 2.
I do hope that means, this episode has turned you off watching GoT for good? No more episodes ever; anytime you feel tempted, just remember the taste of rat shit! 😉
Pigeon,
Isaac said in a EW interview that she knocked on his trailer door and freaked him out in that make up, so little to no CGI.
I’m really impressed with how this episode managed to deal with so many cliffhangers and still be exciting. Great, really. Except, as you said Sue, for Dorne….
Even though I agree with the showrunners that the Dornish storyline needed a major shakeup, they killed exactly the wrong people. Perhaps it will make sense eventually, but I doubt it. What a waste of Alexander Siddig. He deserved better.
I’ve only one question from this episode – where did Ramsay’s dogs disappear too? They were at Sansas throat and then…. Nowhere. Are we supposed to believe they ran off?
Really? That is so great. She seems a good sport. I can only imagine the behind the scenes shenanigans that go on. Thanks!
“It’s a sad fucking statement when Dolorous Edd is our only chance.” — unnamed member of the Knights Watch. Hysterical.
So glad to have the show back. Boy was the Dorne stuff just a train wreck, and for the first time ever I can say GOT wasted actors, in this case DeObia Oparei and the perfectly cast Alexander Siddig. And I’m with Sue on this – the mediocre and only marginally compelling book plot would have been so much better!! Oy vey! (On the other hand this was the first time I liked KCH and Jessica Henwick on the show and I sure as hell am not sad to see the boring Toby Sebastian go.)
The Brienne/Sansa moment is lovely and it’s a great callback to the Ghost of Harrenhall when she pledged her sword to Cat. This time she’s much more reluctant but then genuinely delighted when Sansa accepts.
And just wow on Carice van Houten.
Overall? Not as good as season 4 and 1 premieres. Better than 5 and probably on a par with season 2 premiere.
Yes!!! I wonder if they’re dragging things, so Sansa can get to Castle Black and witness it. Episode 2 will surely just be the fight with the NW members and maybe Mel feeling upset about her visions.
In Season 2 after her dragons were stolen, she does mention to Jorah that they’re the only children she’ll ever have, implying her infertility.
But in Season 1 they omitted MMD’s line from the books where she mentions the possibility of Dany having or not children again, so I found it weird that they included it now.
Chris,
I don’t think they were the Ramsay killer dogs. They looked like blood hounds to me, which aren’t necessarily fighting dogs.
Ignoring Dorne…….
I’ll admit it, I cried like a baby. It really was wonderful to see Brienne fulfill her vow to Catylin and then pledge her sword to Sansa. Gwendoline is, IMO, phenomenal in that role and Brienne is my favorite character in the HBO adaptation. Sofie and Alfie were also potent and Turner is really starting to display her acting chops. All in all they gave the best performances in this episode, IMO of course. I can’t wait for the river lands and seeing is
.
On to Epi 2!!!!
The Dragon Demands,
The way I see it, Thorne wanted to feel clean before he stabbed Jon. In a some sort of way, he never disobey any order of his Lord Commander, so that is the reason he let the wildlings to cross the wall, because that was an order the Lord Commander gave him, but “enough is enough” was the mindset Thorne have when he stabbed Jon. Or least that’s the way I see it.
So weird Davos and the other guys guarding Jon’s body when everyone there knows you have to burn dead people’s bodies, regardless of who they are. Plot reason at it’s best. It’s not like they know for sure they could just bring him to someone and they’d ressurrect him.
We hated the Sand Snakes, they’ve should have killed them not the Martells c’mon. So house Martell’s gone too? Bummer.
I personally was touched with Theon doing all he could to keep Sansa warm. Even if it was futile, she seemed to appreciate it.
Kargaryen,
They’re not guarding Jon’s body. They are locked in the room with nowhere to go.
There is no fucking way Ramsay did not personally go after Theon and Sansa unless Roose ordered him not to. Completely unbelievable that he was too busy mourning Myranda to go get his bride and his Reek back. I don’t really care how they change the plot. What makes me love ASOIAF is the way characters always act in believable ways, even if they are doing something foolish it makes sense for that character to act that way at that time.
I guess I blinked during the second they showed the boat at King’s Landing again before Trystane’s scene because I had no idea how he got back to Dorne to get murdered. But apparently Littlefinger loaned his jet pack to the Sand Snakes instead. Doran never even got to deliver his speech. What a waste. I have to agree with the person above who said they killed off all the wrong people.
The Dragon Demands,
Untrue. They only shot for a day or two at the Alcazaba in Spain for that storyline. I’d be surprised if Dorne was in more than two episodes after this. The only statement about there being more Dorne in s6 came from Siddig, who after this episode was plainly being misleading on purpose.
Kraznys,
Yeah from the trailers I think we were led to believe they were protecting Jon’s body, but Davos made it pretty clear – even flat out saying – that if they opened the door, he believed they would be killed by Thorne and the NW. They are in there waiting until Ed gets back with help, not protecting Jon’s body.
Kay,
The thing is, the Dorne storyline is so bad that I don’t want to see anything related to that anymore. And, if they able to do something like that, then maybe they might fuck up the other storylines. Fortunately, the wall, winterfell and kingslandig were still so good that I’m excited to see what happens next. They just need to forget Dorne and then everything will be fine.
Can’t sleep whatsoever lol.
Valar morghulis House Martell
Leuf,
They could’ve jumped on a boat only a little while after Jaime and co left and easily caught up with them on the way to King’s Landing. Possible also that Bronn could’ve helped them out if he was still on the ship.
I kinda liked the Dorne stuff. It was the most shocking moment in the episode, as I was expecting Doran to execute Ellaria and not the other way around. It’s not the Dorne in the books but then it never was. They tried to adapt Dorne last year and it felt awkward and bad (pussy) so I’m in if they want to blow it up (I still think they will be the ones to receive Danny when she makes her move).
Ugh. :p That wasn’t Doran’s plan.
Someone kill me please.
I’m not going to let Dorne ruin the episode for me. The Jon discovery and Sansa scenes were wonderfully well handled. Thought the new khal was good and Lena great.
I understand some people have been crying ‘plot hole’ at the fact that earlier we have seen Mel naked in the bath without losing her glamour. However, is it possible that Mel gets her power primarily from her faith, with her necklace being some sort of power back-up for when her faith goes off-line? The red jewel seemed to be glowing more faintly than in the past (I thought), so perhaps she is just conserving her mystical batteries?
Hexonx,
Honestly I read that book so long ago and forced myself to get through it, skimming at times, that I only remember the big things. So was surprised by it, but it totally makes sense and was awesome. Makes me even more excited for things I’m not expecting to happen.
Dorne has been a mess, imo, but if the main point of their involvement in the series (other than dropped plots involving Targaryens) is to put two Sand Snakes in King’s Landing, that mission seems to have been accomplished. It is strange that the Sand Snake that hinted to Bronn that she would come to see him was the one that stayed behind, though.
The explanation of Trystane’s death makes sense, but as always, if you can’t figure out what’s happening by watching the episodes and have to read interviews or explanations on-line, the writers haven’t done their job very well.
Great review,Sue! I,enjoyed immensely the episode and I´m super happy the Dorne plot is going away fast! I hated AFFC and found positively boring the Martells and liked them no better in the show,as well. So,good riddance Prince,Princeling and Guard;let´s see what those crazy women are upto! 😉
Good start but as always we are junkies and all want more!
I loved the Dothraki ‘Monty Python – Spanish Inquisition’ moment. With the Khal saying the best thing ever is seeing a woman naked for the first time ……which after the other his boys naming a few other things the Khal eventually says OK one of the 5 best things!!!
I’m not a fan of how they handled Dorne, but it’s not hard to believe they followed shortly after in their own boat.
I’m still hanging on to the idea of the actual Lady Stoneheart appearing. In the episode 2 promo it shows Sansa and Brienne talking about searching for Arya. Sansa has no interactions with Jamie so it would feel really weird if she commands her to kill Jamie out of nowhere. I’m thinking that Sansa will send Brienne to the Riverlands to search for Ayra, basically getting her back on the book plot. She’ll run into the Hound, and maybe Lady Stoneheart herself. There was one siting of Michelle near the set but there was no photo so we must take it as a grain of salt. Considering that Thoros is returning my hopes for LS is renewed.
I agree with Sue about Trystane Martell. Not only was there no facial reaction to Myrcella’s death while he was painting, but he didn’t even acknowledge her death when talking to the SS. In fact, he said he didn’t want to kill them because they were family. Yet, they just were caught in the act of trying to kill Myrcella in Dorne in s5. You would think he would be furious at them. Maybe Trystane is just one of those hard core arts and crafts people who is really into going to those shops where you get to pick out pieces of pottery to paint.
The fact they were on the boat in King’s Landing without any forewarning or explanation was weird and confusing too. Judging from comments I’m seeing all over the place, it seems like a lot of people were at least initially confused by that.
But I actually like the scene in The Water Gardens. It was brutal. I was sad to see Alexander Siddig and the guy playing Hotah die. I was hoping for more from them this season, but I don’t mind the SS really either.
Reading his brainfart which passes as a recap slash critique I realize how spoiled, thankless and generally how much of a bunch of assholes we have become.
I have stayed away from this website for months on end . I used to like to come here and read once in a while and participate, see differing opinions, statements and just generally get to enjoy the company and even kinship the GoT fanbase used to provide…
But that is all gone now. It’s been replaced by arrogance, snark, poison, venom and vitriol…you guys could give the Dornish you so much despise some lessons in how to poison people…because this is what you and this website have become.
No insight, information or knowledge is to be found here. No…instead what you do is just belittle, insult and just suck the life out of everything this show means to its fans. You think your are clever and cheeky, but that is only the self imposed ignorance that comes from the arrogance I was alluding to earlier.
Instead of doing something useful and creative, you just tear down and insult…because that is much easier and will get you more clicks and attention.
You know what I noticed being away from this site? How much more I enjoy the show without anyone there to poison it and take that enjoyment away!
And I thought those douchebags over at Fansided’s site were bad…I guess I was wrong….
Overall, I liked the episode even though it felt a bit short on time.
I absolutely loved the scenes with Sansa & Theon and the vow exchange with Brienne: beautifully acted, gorgeous photography, emotionally on point…
I really liked the scene where Ser Alliser explains his actions, he is a bit obtuse, he follows orders so that is why he obeyed Jon Snow previously and he actually believes the Lord Commander was acting as he thought best. However, he cannot simply view things beyond his own limited perspective and that is why, upon reflection, he equates Jon Snow saving the wildlings (i.e. the enemy) as probably the first of many bad decisions that would bring greater peril to the Night’s Watch.
The scenes in Mereen where a bit meh, but maybe it is just them setting things up.
Loved all the Dothraki stuff. And even Jorah finding the ring didn’t seem as silly as I would have expected since you could clearly see that bit of untouched grass among a a spiral of horse prints. It makes it stand out and easier to find a shiny trinket.
The Melisandre reveal at the end was kind of cool, it left me wanting to know more, which I guess was the purpose.
Regarding Dorne, well, I have to agree with what was said, it seemed as if they dig themselves into a hole last year with that plotline so let’s just murder everyone and get on with it.
I didn’t care for the Dorne parts of the book, so I have no problems with how it is being presented in the show. I just hope that it plays some role as we head towards the end game so that it is something more than just a way to kill off one of Cersei’s kids.
I’m so confused with the “show” Dorne. Who’s left now to care about or be a part of the Iron Throne battle? Where can they take this part of the story that would make any sense? I agree, if they couldn’t stick to the actual story why go there at all? Just to kill Myrcella? She’s not even dead yet in the books.
I had an idea involving a previously unmentioned volcano erupting and killing everyone in Dorne. Seems like an improvement over what they went with.
Dorne was terrible in the books and worse in the show. I’m glad they are trying to just move on and forget it.
Rillion,
If you remember, Obara and Nym are on in King’s Landing now, so it may very well cost Cersei two of her kids.
Oh! And loooved the final scene with the Mel hag! What a great,sad performance from the actress/cgi/prostetics dpt/make up dept/…It left me wanting to learn everything about her personal story
While I didn’t quite like how they handled the Dorne plot it was a wonderfully shot scene. Would have liked to see Hotah go out fighting at least though.
Surprised to see Cersei being so honest about herself (btw, great acting by Lena). I didn’t expected her to talk about the prophecy.
I also like the way Davos is becoming a leader.
I’ll say one good thing about the Dornish scenes: at least they avoided the trite cliche of pushing the intended victim down the set of stairs that his wheelchair happens to be right next to.
And if they are going to insist on returning to Dorne once in a while, here’s hoping that the rumor is true that a certain character, played by a certain thespian who starred in a certain classic 1960’s hit series, will be spending time there. If anyone can make Dorne interesting, she can. (Fingers crossed.)
That has to be one of the best episodes of television ever.
I think Jon will remain dead.
That being said, I’m guessing Melisandre will glamour someone to make it look like Jon survived.
WELL FUCK
There goes again my favorite character.
I want to cry
loco73,
I think the problem is people who fly off the handle when a review is not in line with their opinion. You can enjoy the Dorne plot and still enjoy a recap that doesn’t.
Agreed. He was always shown as this super bad arse, and he ends up getting killed by a pipsqueak with a dagger. ;-(
Loved every minute of this episode. I too got choked up with the Sansa/Brienne scene. I believe Sansa will now find her moxie to finish off those that have wronged the Starks (yes, very long list). Yay for the brave and honorable Brienne. And kudos to Theon & Podrick! The howling from Ghost was heartbreakingly sad.
Besides the touching & uplifting dialogue between Brienne & Sansa….the best (funny/unexpected diversion if only for a moment) lines of the episode ….
“….and some mutton. I’d like some mutton.”
and
“You’re a greedy bitch. You know that!”
❤️
I am in anger
Jon is not resurrected. The actors say that it will not be resurrected.
If it does not return to the life, I boycott!
I am in anger to have looked at an episode for nothing…. I hope that I do not waste my time!
afflicted for my English
I agree with you. One of the few. I’m willing to see where this goes and reserve judgement. I do agree that Areo Hotah’s character was wasted, though.
But, the howling from Ghost was heartbreakingly sad.
mieux,
He’ll be back. It is known. 😉
Don’t give up hope just yet. The Red Woman has lost her faith and lay down to die, now what could possibly happen at Castle Black that would restore her faith in her visions and the Red God?
loco73,
This is arguably the most positive GoT fansite on the internet. Any other fan community other than the GoT subreddit, which is also mostly positive, is filled with book readers complaining about the show and bashing D&D.
Jons corpse when they found him looked so creepy. This scene overall was very tense with ghosts howling in the background.
Don’t count Roose out just yet. I think he knows that his son is a nut but is toying with him. Expect the Unexpected here.
I don’t even want to think what Ramsay would have done to Theon and Sansa if they had been captured back.
loco73,
I don’t understand where you are coming from. Where is all this poisonous vitriol you say you’re seeing? This website is one of the more pleasant corners of the net. Most everyone is respectful and keeps themselves in check. The only negativity I feel are from the posters who are attempting to call out others on their so-called negativity. *puzzled*
In one of the interviews he mentioned that the boltons might have some connection with the others. He could just be trolling us fans though.
Ravyn,
I saw what Maisie did as well. It made me smile. 🙂 That’s someone who loves the show and its fans going above and beyond the call of duty.
I loved the episode. It’s so damn great to have the show back. I’ll write more specifically about the various storylines – the ones I adored, the ones that intrigued me, and the one that is causing the most consternation – tomorrow morning. Right now, I just wanted to add another positive voice to the mix.
I agree. It’s common story telling convention that Ramsey would eventually kill Roose. ASOIAF and GoT are a bit different though, I wouldn’t be surprised if the opposite happened.
I’m waiting for a picture to pop up showing Jon’s dried blood in the snow. The way Davos looked at it made it seem important. I was a bit high on weed and I kind of saw Jon’s blood somewhat depicting a dragon.
I have mixed feelings. There were some great scenes (Theon, Sansa, Brienne and Pod, along with the Scenes at the Wall and those with Cersei and Jamie, Dany, Tyrion and Varys) but all in all I felt it was bit rushed and too many stories were squeezed in. In the past D&D have been quite happy to stay in one place for longer and ignore whole story strands until the next week. While the Donre scene, adequately discussed above and points to more Dr Who crossovers it was in fact the playing of the story out over one day that left me a little ill at ease. We started the show with the discover of Jon’s body in the early hours and then finished that evening with Mel dragging her weary bones into bed – so 1 day, the one day Throne gave Davos and co to make up their mind. I don’t think one episode has covered such a short time frame before and it left me wanting. I suppose that as a good thing but it felt a little more empty and not in a Mel has lost her faith kind of empty. Perhaps it was the short length of the episode that compounded this. Did anybody else have this feeling?
On another matter I’m glad Bran wasn’t featured. Next week or the week after would be be better. I also think the first thing he sees should be Jon’s death and not his past. As I’ve mentioned in the forums I don’t think there is a reason to bring Jon back, other than he has good hair. The general audience and all the other characters around Jon have no understanding of who he is or what he may be. D&D need to justify where they go and make any resurrection make sense. Hats off to them for not jumping in at the deep end.
And yes the oath brought a tear to my as well.
Good to be back. Liked a lot.
Tyrion strolling about unguarded seemed odd.
Dorne just doesn’t seem to offer the same quality that the rest of the show does.
I have two points:
1-I feel the opposite regarding dorne plot. It was like a kiss of life for what happened last year.
2- coul be melisandrr be the same person called shiera seastar
What a fucking mess was Dorne. The country is upset because one of their princes died like an idiot, so the Sand Snakes decide to kill the remainig Martells to avenge the death fo other Martells?
If the Sand Snakes and Ellaria rally the country together against the Lannisters, this will go down as the shittiest plot ever. I mean Doran let the death of his brother pass to avoid bloodshed and people hate him for it? What?
You’re telling me the common folk of Dorne would go to war over a prince whose death was his fault, and who spent most of his time travelling and fucking? You mean to tell me after the murder of the Martell dinasty, which ruled and held Dorne as a free kingdom, the bannermen will join and accept the paramour of a young prince who was fourht in the line of succesion and his bastard daughters as rulers? Just like that? No civil war to establish a new main house in Dorne?
Doran Martell’s career was ended like Poochie’s was in the Itchy and Scratchy Show, pulled up by the collar and booted out. Such a travesty.
My thoughts on the episode:
Positives:
Davos. I always loved him, but he was particularly awesome in this episode. I can’t wait for him to kick some ass in the next one.
I like how they portray Thorne as a complicated character, rather than a straight-up bad guy. He’s honest about what he did, and while he is an asshole, he truly believes he did the right thing by killing Jon. His reasoning isn’t entirely wrong either (not saying I agree with him).
I liked the bit of depth they added to Ramsay. It was nice to see him display some sort of positive emotion for a change (though, as Sue said, it wasn’t TOO much – he’s still Ramsay after all).
Surprisingly, I genuinely felt for Cersei in her scene. Lena Headey is amazing.
Sansa/Theon hugging, as well as Sansa’s “speech” to Brienne. I got a little choked up at those.
I’m liking this Khal Moro. I hope we see a good amount of him this season (and judging from Joe Naufahu’s presence in the promotional stuff, we probably will)
The scene with Tyrion, Varys, and that starving woman was funny.
That final reveal with Melisandre! I mean, I was KIND OF expecting it, but I’m so glad they actually did it.
Negatives:
Didn’t like the Dorne scenes, though unlike Sue, I don’t think it’s something they can’t come back from. I’ll wait and see what happens…
The fight scene with Brienne, Pod, and the Bolton soldiers felt a little… clumsy.
For someone as smart and calculating as Roose, that threat about Walda’s baby was kind of a stupid move…
Jorah finding Dany’s ring was a little TOO easy…
Its time to remove the countdown clock. Its just standing there 00000000
The Dragon Demands,
Will you please. Just. Shut. Up. About it already!? You sound like a broken record. Do you have to hijack every thread in existence to muse upon The Scene Where Alliser Lets the Wildlings Through and the way it sets up The Scene Where They Kill Jon for No Reason Whatsoever?
What we have here is….failure to communicate.
Communication is a two-way street. When one side is unable and unwilling to communicate being isolated in its VR bubble, it’s hardly the fault of the other side, isn’t it?
Greg du Pille,
Don’t forget the potion in the scene. Perhaps she needs to drink that as well. And if I recall, when Selyse came to her when Mel was naked in the bath Selyse was pottering around with the potions and it seemed important at the time.
Mixed episode to start a season IMO, some great moments: (the Wall and personal highlight: Sansa/Theon/Brienne/Pod.)
Downs: Dorne – I just can not explain myself what was the reason to involve Dorne in the show in first place. The missed opportunity is not even strong word for that. Just buffled.
Nitpick: I would rather see Marg s and Arya s sequence in EP 2. That was not bad at all – but it looked like a filler to already rich episode.
What to say about Mel: lol I could not sleep after that – did not see it coming.
Overall: Except for Dorne – nice start to a season.
I absolutely loved the episode. But unlike the majority, it seems, I loved also the Dorne scenes. The talk before the season about how Doran would execute Ellaria… that had left me a bit queasy and unhappy, because it smacked of trying to hide and bury that storyline. So, it was cool to see the show doing the exact opposite.
It was GREAT to see Areo going down like a bitch, without a fight. And it was especially great seeing the guards just looking on as their Prince died. The latter really underscored how the Snakes have the support of the population, and Doran doesn’t.
Really bad episode. And Dorne …. this is going downhill fast. Better bring in Euron soon
Tomigreyjoy,
The Sand Snakes ARE currently the remaining Martells. And don’t forget that in this very century, a very real superempire went to war with another country over forged evidence. People are idiots.
Mediocre opener in my opinion. Probably still the best after Two Swords, but that Dorne stuff really brought the episode down a bit. I mean, I assume this is the end of that storyline for the time being, but that felt so unnecessary and unrealistic. You know its bad when I like Trystane and his 3 minutes of screentime much better than the SS (I think that acronym fits them perfectly).
Best parts:
– Night’s Watch storyline was great! Exceptional! The scenes had time to breathe and everything made sense
– Melisandre, at least the episode left us with something to think about. I expected it, since it had been speculated about, and it was executed well. Love how vulnerable she looked when she got into bed.
– Cersei/Jaime, Margaery/HS, Arya/Waif: all simple scenes that are fun to watch
– Sansa accepts Brienne
Somewhat flawed:
– Jorah/Daario, it went a bit too easily, I can accept the ring find (it was in that circular area anyway), but it would have been nice to have one more scene where they are actually struggling to find her
– Sansa/Theon flight, same as above, a bit too smoothly and didn’t have time to breathe
FUBAR:
– Dorne, enough said about it, lets hope we don’t have to watch anything of that caliber again.
Mel wasn’t wearing the necklace in that scene. Was it a continuity error or did Selyse see Mel’s true form, despite the fact that we the audience could not? There’s evidence in the scene to support it.
The Theon/Sansa/Pod/Brienne scene: I too wondered about where the heck the hounds ran off to? or why we didn’t hear or see them get killed. Regardless of whether they weren’t the mean killer dogs, Ramsay’s got, they are still dogs and riled up due to the hunt. They would have continued barking or attacked, I think.
Anyway, of course my highlight were the Theon/Sansa scenes and then Pod and Brienne coming and well, it was just beautiful. I will have to do a more thorough rewatch later on.
I think part of why some people feel underwhelmed is due to the massive hype we’ve all been building up. All in all, I thought it was a good start to a new Game of Thrones season. 🙂
I think because this time they toned down the accents and Obara had a near-smile on her face instead of last-year’s perpetual scowl. I didn’t think it was as totally terrible as the rest of you did.
My big complaint was with myself. Even though I didn’t finish the books, I don’t normally mind spoilers, in fact I read all of them and track down much of the back-story. That’s why I’m ok on this thread. Sadly, though, I was online late last night and found a link to supposed pics from the first episode. I wish to heaven I hadn’t clicked it. They were pics from this episode, showing the Dorne deaths and Mel’s change. I had no idea about the glamouring – my head would have exploded if I had seen it for the first time tonight.
“I’d like some mutton.” “We’ve got a direwolf.” I love Davos more and more. As for Mel – ok is the age-magic in the necklace or the potion? As she puts the necklace on the table, the camera zooms to a half-filled bottle of potion. Must mean something.
I was amazed that Thorne so readily owned the assassination. Though, obviously he’s planned it for a long time. He alludes to the reason he let the wildings through in the first place was because he believes in obeying his Lord Commander and didn’t want to go against a direct order. Of course not, he didn’t want to set the precedent of disobedience of the Lord Commander, knowing full well he’d set himself into that position at the first opportunity, and didn’t want the accusation of disobedience directed at him.
Poor Arya, getting smacked with a stick again. I wish they’d stop smacking her. Is the Waif the Waif or Jaquen? I half expected/hoped to see a cat run across the screen. I told you, I follow the back-story too. I hope they don’t spend 3 episodes clocking her with that pole. I can’t wait to see the acting troupe we saw being filmed come through.
The smirk on the new Khal’s wives faces when Vaes Dothrak is mentioned to Dany says to me that Vaes Dothrak is no weekend at the spa. Waiting to see Dany unite all of them to her side.
Roose and Ramsay – When Roose mentioned the coming baby, and you could visibly see Ramsay’s fear at that thought, I said out loud, “Roose, you’re now a dead man.” But after a minute, I rethought it. Roose is no fool. He knows only too well how to push Ramsay’s buttons and what Ramsay is and has always been.
The dorne storyline makes doran look incompetent and dorne without any allies in westeros. I don’t know if there is any comeback from that. So Martells the second great house to bite dust after not taking part in war of five kings. How ironic!!
I wonder if Jon comes back as a wight but Melisandre confronts and converts him from ice back to the light and then Jon’s consciousness, which warged into Ghost, goes back into him.
Just rambling, sleep deprived.
You’d think there would be some Unsullied guarding Dany’s fleet, but I guess the Sons of the Harpy had 20 good men.
Kraznys,
I am going to wait and hope the unsullied recap is better than this … I’m so sick of people hating episodes just because they aren’t the exact same storyline as the books … You know what’s worse than reading comments that are so negative … Reading this review . Yes that scene in the water gardens during season 5 was badly choreographed but it seems like after that people just choose to hate the Dornish plot no matter what happens … Bad poosey was a cheesy line but guess what sometimes people who think they’re all badass say cheesy stuff . I don’t think Doran is a great character . Maybe he is in the books . But the show introduced us to Ellaria and it seems they have chosen to make the story about her and not some weakling who talks big and does nothing about it.
So yes I love the Dornish storyline and I actually want more of it. Ellaria is officially a player and I can’t wait to see what they do with the sand snakes in KL . I am not an idiot and don’t need everything to be shown on screen for me to understand that Trystane is still in KL and the sand snakes simply got on board another ship after Trystane Jaime and Myrcella left at the end of season 5
I’m also probably gonna stay away from the sullied reviews if this kind of book loving show hating negativity continues
They did a very smart thing with dorne ….really …ok execution wise …it had minor problems ..They could’ve made hotah look strong…… fine ..no big deal for me …and and how sand snakes ended up in that boat …is bit confusing but I don’t mind that ..coz when you see the bigger picture …..The whole dorne plot makes sense ….I don’t wanna explain how …..but I promise you…perhaps end of next season or maybe earlier you will realise that dorne was a job well done …..not in terms of execution but in terms of the overall story. ….
as a whole I would say this episode was worth atleast 3.5 points out of 5 and in my overall best got episode of all time this would rank In 30s I don’t know yet…..
Excellent recap, thank you!
Double thanks actually for my part – I finally got to watch episode 1 in my hotel; strangely there had a Russian (!!) channel that broadcasts it, and although I had no problem with the english speaking parts (they just had Russian subtitles), I completely lost all the Valyrian/Dothraki parts (yes, Russian subtitles again…).
So thanks for explaining!
As for the rest of the episode… the Wall was great, as you say, Davos is the man this year apparently.
Melissandre, to be honest, I don’t get the point. It felt as if it was just for the shock of it. Unless the idea was that she will just lay down there and die (like, given up).
The rest of the episode yes, was somehow erratic. An introduction I would say.
The Winterfell scenes were top (both the Sansa/Brienne and of course that big psycho Ramsay).
The Dorne scenes were quite the opposite. As you say, what a waste for Alexander Siddig. Really felt as if they decided to kill off the Dorne storyline.
And yes, really, those were my thoughts exactly: Oberyn was such a positive character. Why on earth would his daugthers turn out like that. This isn’t even B-movie characters.
The rest of it, well, it was just introductory. Nothing much. Although I did feel sad for Cersei.
Just a question: on the channel I watched it I think there was no “previously seen on…”. Or did I miss it?
House Applebee,
I was wondering the same thing… How the hell did those two girls get on the ship??? This might be the only time in the entire series that I found myself trying to suspend my disbelief. There is NO way those two could have gotten onto that ship. None.
”Ellaria will die”
”Doran will kill her”
HAHAHAHAHA.
Everything was nice and good, mostly a set-up episode.
Dorne was the biggest suprise, I loved it!!!!!!!
This is exactly why, when I watch the show I throw away the books from my mind.
That scene was the highlight of the episode for me. Everything was good, but not really shocking or amazing. But I loved Dorne.
And now we have 2 Sand Snakes in KL, we know the people, or soldiers at least where not pleased with Doran’s rule.
God, even last year my reaction to Dorne was ”meh”, I was just grateful we where sparred Arianne and everyone involved in her story but god did this start good!
Sansa's Knight,
Exactly!! Well said!!
GhostsOfSummerhall,
Maybe mel bring jon back and use glamour on some deadbody to make it look like jon snow like with mance in the books?
To be honest, while watching it I also thought that there was a pattern there, maybe a dragon.
But I guess I am imagining things…
It certainly sounds this explanation has a lot more credit to it!
Kraznys,
Yeah the episode was ”good”, nothing amazing though, it’s clearly a set-up episode.
Dorne was the highlight for me! Hope we see more!
Even though I knew pretty much everything that was gonna happen, I can’t say I’m disappointed. Most of the episode was solid, even Doran’s death scene was somewhat well executed.
My major complaint is, of corse: HOW IN THE WORLD DID OBARA AND NYMERIA GET ON THAT BOAT??? You better explain this next episode.
Another minor complaint: WHY NO BRAN? After being gone for an entire season, you’re even not gonna include him in the premiere?
I loved the soundtrack as well, especially the returning Dothraki theme and the epic Lord of Light theme at the end.
Best scene must’ve been the opening, with Davos discovering Jon’s body. That fucking soundtrack though. Ramin does not disappoint.
And Theon hugging Sansa was just so aww… I totally ship them.
Mihnea,
Only one complain though. Siddig and Hotah where a bit underused.
I had the same complaint with Mance and Cirian.
But this complaint gets mostly destroyed for me, because the only reason it exists is that I thought Doran will play the major part in this story.
But now that it’s clear that Ellaria will do that I’m mostly satisfied.
I guess Davos places his bet on Melissandre. This is why he has mentioned her several times. The rest of the brothers are just dazed, I guess.
They could have just as easily sprouted wings…. (rolls eyes) The whole Dorn portion of the show is the weakest part, and the most cringe worthy.
Mel is losing her faith and that is shown by her reverting to her old tired self. She needs a sign to get her back on track(Cue: Bran and the Three-eyed Raven to make an appearance in her vision/dream?)
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Them taking another ship is my bet and makes the most sense.
The scene could easly happen days if not weeks after the killing itself.
I’m not complaining though, Dorne was my favourite part in this episode.
As for Mel not wearing her necklance in the Season 4 bath scene: I don’t really have much of a problem with that. It’s easy for me to just pretend that she was wearing it there as well.
Now excuse me while I go drink some bookfag tears.
Although I was sad to miss the “The great victory I saw in the flames; all of it was a lie.” from the trailer. Perhaps next episode, though it’s likely that it’s just been cut.
Mihnea,
Sometimes I think you are simply trying to be controversial. You really didn’t mind all the problems with those scenes like:
– how did the SS get aboard the ship
– if they are on the ship why not kill Jaime as well
– why did Jaime not notice them on the ship
– if they followed in a second ship…why did nobody notice them come aboard or why did Doran not wonder where the fuck two of the SS had gone
– did it really take that long for Trystane to write a message to his father (the ship had barely left when Myrcella died)
– I know she is crazy with grief, but killing his brother is probably not a thing Oberyn would have liked
– Areo Hotah is the worst guard ever, it is not like Doran, SS and Ellaria where on good terms
– so who is going to lead Dorne now? I doubt killing the ruler in a backstabby way will garner much favour amongst the people…these things almost always lead to civil war and I doubt the small folk give a fuck about Oberyn, Elia etc. I hope for Ellaria’s sake Dorne has some USA type generals chomping at the bit to get into a good scrap.
So, it is not the killing of Doran, Trystane and Areo that annoys me, just the horrible way in which it was executed.
Dragonmcmx,
On the SS getting aboard the ship…if they were on board for that whole period why not kill Jaime? Killing a Lannister is priority no:1!
*Dorne
It definitely is not the worst part. Certain people have just decided to use it as the go-to section of the show to bitch about after that lackluster fight scene last season. These people are like elephants: they never forget and they never forgive. 🙂
Yeah I agree and have always thought that Sansa is gonna send Brienne after Arya while she is doing her thing in the North, rather than focussing on Jaime (and the ep2 trailer backs that up).
LSH I’m not so sure now tbh. The oaths were a great nod to Catelyn (maybe intended to refresh our memory for LSH), but the announcement that we only have 10-15 eps after S6 have me in doubt over this. I just don’t see how they’ll have time to include that sub-plot with everything else that needs to be resolved.
You do realize how far away Dorne is from Kings Landing, right? That they just followed the ship in their own boat, unseen, and then boarded the ship while docked right outside Kings Landing, is extremely hard to believe. Its just a hack job of story telling. The show has been too good up to this point to worry too much about it, but defending it is a joke. Its poor execution compared to everything else. And Doran’s top body guard had no idea there was a mutiny? At all? Really? Dorne is a total mess.
Oh, yeah another Grey Worm without worm found his Missandei.
“There’s power in a king’s blood.”
koempel,
No i’m not trying to be ”controversial”.
I just loved it. Simple as that.
It’s clear who will rule Dorne, the soldiers have already abandoned Doran.
Time is really not linear in stories, Trystane could’ve sent the letter days if not weaks after he left.
I think Obara and Nym took another ship. Why would the guards tell Trystane/Doran if they where in the plot too?
You are free to hate, just as I am free to like it.
But please don’t say I’m doing this ”just to be controversial” I really loved, just as there are people who liked things I completely despise. You don’t see me telling them ”you just want to be controversial”.
Redxgod,
Because a coup is going on. Killing the heir becomes priority number 1.
I also don’t think they where on that ship all along, most likely they took another.
They haven’t had time to worry about burning Jon’s body. They found him, realised he had been murdered by mutineers, taken him to the Lord Commanders room and holed up. Not really had the time to worry about building a pyre when Thorne is outside wanting to kill them all.
oops
Pounce,
Yup my thoughts exactly. Bu I would just put ”The Wars To Come” higher
Why did my comment disappeared ?
I’m laughing at all the the non-continuity complaints which haven’t really bothered me. But what DID (and nobody seems to have picked up on) is the fact that there’s now no snow at Winterfell in the opening shots… WTF happened? And why haven’t Sansa/Theon died of exposure yet!?
I have decided that the ‘Oathbreaker’ will definitely be Brienne. She will break her oath to Sansa when Sansa makes a deal/teams up with with the Red Woman to bring back Jon. This goes back to her Renly days.
Zalos,
Its not just the poor fight scene. Its the bad acting by the SS girls and the poorly executed plot. And the whole end of season 5 with the girls on the dock, and then here in this episode suddenly boarding the ship in Kings Landing completely unnoticed, a thousand miles away. GoT has always done a good job of not letting things be too loose ended. The Dorne subplot has been very rushed. And Hotah being killed so easily. I was very disappointed in that scene. Its almost like they were running out of time to film it and just said screw it, we will get what we can and go with it.
Apollo,
The snow melted after the sacrifice in EP9. I guess the effect lasts couple of days/weeks.
Well Ramsey told his father he had sent the best dogs he has after Sansa. And well, he should have. So we were suposed to see mean bloodhounds, used to tear apart innocent girls, but what we got was just pets.
First bummer.
Then there is no reason to let the dogs out of the fight. Would have fitted well in the battle. I mean it was the only real battle in that episode.
Second bummer.
“No animal was harmed….” maybe it’s that.
Mihnea,
It is just that you have always seemed to show good judgement regarding the quality of scenes to be so wrong in this case (in my opinion). And, yes, quality is subjective, but to state that the Dorne scenes are the best (liking I can understand, but the best of the episode?) can not be interpreted by me in any other way than ‘being controversial’. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree about it and you can have the last word regarding the matter.
We might be on the same side of the argument if Ramsay kills Roose and Roose continues to be unaware of the possibility (as it seems at this moment).
When I saw the reactions all over the Internet about the episode, I was expecting to be disappointed…
Que nenni !!! Seriously guys ?
Everything about this episode was well done, the camera-work, the soundtrack, the acting, the pacing, the visual effects. It’s as smooth as ever.
The ending gave me chills…
My ranking of the Season Premieres :
1. Two Swords
2. The Red Woman
3. Winter is Coming
4. The North Remembers
5. Valar Dohaeris
6. The Wars To Come
I am a fan of the series and Dorne, but I’ll tell you why the scene on the ship was hands down the worst in the series (and I’m repeating what I said earlier because I’m shocked no one else has mentioned this).
Firstly, yes, there was the whole, how did Obara and Nym end up on the boat in King’s Landing? That was confusing even if you ultimately can come up with a reason for it.
Here’s the worst part though. In the previous season, the Sand Snakes tried killing Myrcella, and Trystane is aware of this. She eventually was killed by poison and unless Trystane is a complete moron, he would obviously suspect his cousins had a part in it. So you would think his response on seeing Nym and Obara on the ship would be to at least question them if not be extremely angry / upset at them. Instead, he doesn’t even bring it up and initially says he that doesn’t want to fight them because he doesn’t want to fight family. It even had me questioning if somehow Trystane wasn’t aware of Myrcella’s death (I initially didn’t notice the funeral eye things he was painting).
So yeah, those two things easily made it the worst scene in the series for me.
Ooh my heart. The second favorite part from the books, it’s gone.
The part which made Doran one of my favourite characters, the cunning, deceiving, long-term planning end-gamer. Vengeance. Justice. Fire and blood. And the black onyx dragon pressed on the palm..
Well I thought it was a pretty good opener. I loved the Davos scenes and his interactions with Thorne. I also thought it was sensible to include Margaery Tyrell in the premiere. Although she didn’t really do anything it was worth including her just to remind people about her as she missed the end of last year. I don’t like characters missing too many episodes in a row as it becomes too easy to forget where they’re at in the story.
As for Dorne, I didn’t hate it at all. In fact I thought it was better than a lot of those scenes last year, and the SS were considerably better. It was a shame to lose Alexander Siddig as he hasn’t really be given a chance to shine, but I can understand why they killed him off (although I didn’t see it coming). I do think the SS have an important role in the books and show, predominantly as jokers, whereas Doran himself is disposable. D&D had a choice between killing Ellaria and the SS or Doran, but they had to really do one or the other. I don’t think there was anything wrong with these scenes, and it was actually the way that they structured last season’s Dorne plot which is the problem. Doran should have executed Ellaria last year, and then set the SS out on missions (including executing Myrcella). In any case, I doubt we’ll see much of that storyline this year, so I’m glad they’ve got it out of the way straight away.
Overall I thought it was a good start to the series with enough there to whet my appetite for the rest of the series. I don’t think it was as strong as “Two Swords”, but it was still a really good premiere, and the production values were truly exceptional. Bring on the rest of the series!
Episode 2 leaked dialogue:
Alliser: Ser Davos, you don’t seem to understand the situation:
Davos: I understand that if any more words come pouring out your cunt mouth, I’m gonna have to eat all the fucking mutton in this room.
Alliser: You lived your life for a king. You’re gonna die for some mutton?
Davos: Someone is.
You arent being “controversial,” rather you are just ignoring the poor execution and production of certain aspects of the show because you choose to. I am very much a fan and love the show, but I am not blinded by my enthusiasm. Some of us are critical when the show doesnt live up to its potential and misses the mark.
Dragonmcmx,
People should make a meme for this.
Pounce,
Yup, it’s the first thing that came to mind when I saw that scene.
Also: “It’s a sad fucking statement when Dolorous Edd is our only hope.”
Via another boat. Also known as “Magic!” to some people, apparently. Trystane’s ship was docked, as we saw when Jaime arrived. Then we see Nymeria and Obara on his ship. “How did they get there”? Hm… like everyone else does? On a ship. It really isn’t a mystery.
koempel,
Best may have been a bit of a exageration.
I read the leaks and knew the Mell thing was coming. Every other scene in my opinion was very good. Especially Davos.
Dorne suprised me. I really liked how killed everything I hated in the books, about that story.
It was the scene….I enjoyed the most, perhaps this is a better word.
All of this. Its just poorly done. In the context of everything weve seen, the whole boat scene was awfully done. What would have been better is Doran executing Ellaria and the SSs and Trystane basically just being impotent in Kings Landing. Now it seems like a contrived plot line.
Luka Nieto,
Because noone noticed that other boat suspiciously following them, or dropping anchor in the same bay (I didn’t see any other boat) in any of those shots).
Maybe they quickly rode to King’s Landing on horseback. Whatever it is, fucking explain it. It’s stuff like this that makes people think D&D have no writing skills whatsoever. I don’t agree with that, but I am worried about some things from time to time and I see where people are coming from.
Zalos,
Thank you for answering those questions. You saved me the trouble 😛
Esmail,
I’m not ignoring anything.
This scene surpassed all my expectations.
I liked it very much.
In my opinion there is nothing poor about the execution.
The only thing I complained about is that Hotah went to easy and Siddig was underused. But I wrote a bit, why this does not bother me to much.
But I like that just because I liked this scene it means I ignore ”poor execution”.
I hate scenes that most of the fandom loves, but I don’t say they ignore ”poor execution” I just admit they like different thing then me.
GREAT episode, the acting, the music, the visuals, everything was on point imo and it left me wanting more.
The only complaint I have is.. the dialogues.
In past season every episode was filled with double meaning statements and more generally jibs, remarks, witticisms.
By contrast, all the dialogues in this season premiere were quite direct and… there wasn’t much more to them than you understood.
Still, that didn’t prevent me from enjyoing the episode in any way.
I’d also like to point out that this is the first season premiere since season 1 where we don’t get any dragon scenes. Perhaps this time they made them so big they didn’t want to show them as of yet?
Luka Nieto,
I just wanted to thank him myself.
Thanks for saving my time. 🙂
TheSnarkAtWinterfell,
I agree and am equally disappointed in the direction it’s taken. Do you however, think there may be a glimpse of hope that Dorne will rally not exactly “with” Dany, et al, but AGAINST the Lannisters? Providing more fighting power to the revolt against Cersi and company?
Just a though as I’d think they must still have a role in everything to come or they could have killed the storyline last season?
All of this. Its just poorly done. In the context of everything weve seen, the whole boat scene was awfully done. What would have been better is Doran executing Ellaria and the SSs and Trystane basically just being impotent in Kings Landing. Now it seems like a contrived plot line.
Well clearly they didnt fly there. But it just doesnt seem plausible all the same. They were on the dock as the poison was going into effect. What, they just got on another boat afterwards and spent the next few weeks traveling just out of eye range for the next 1000 miles till they got to Kings Landing, and no one happened to see their boat the entire time? And then they just get onto Trystanes boat completely unnoticed? And how does the timeline work between Doran learning that Myrcella has died and Trystane being murdered? Its just really shakey. And then Trystane, whose not an idiot ( we know this from the end of season 5) blindly turns his back to one of the SS? He doesnt suspect that they are responsible?
Its just really badly done, production wise. Obviously the two SS didnt magically appear, but the fact that D and D just completely rushed the progression makes for the audience having to suspend their belief and just assume that the two SS girls actually followed Trystane and Jaime for a 1000 miles unnoticed. Im not satisfied by it.
Are you serious? The Sand Snakes knew the ship was heading to the capital. That wasn’t a secret at all. They didn’t have to actually track it. They simply sailed to the capital hours later (the passing of time is pretty obviously shown in the Jaime-Cersei scene), and then they killed Trystane.
How would they have been noticed?
Hubo,
They are probaly huge.
Most likely they want to save money and use them only when they are necessary.
Mihnea,
Okay, I suppose I can at least understand it when you phrase it like that. I agree that Dorne was horrible in the books, but for me it has been mediocre to horrible on the screen as well.
Fortunately, I left this site until I saw the episode when someone posted that there was leaked footage/photos, so I managed to be surprised! Made the ending of the episode quite a mindfuck (I knew she was old, but seeing it, is different than knowing it). My favourite scene was basically all of the Wall (Alliser and Davos as the stars of the episode) and I do love me some High Sparrow (best ‘villain’ the series has at the moment imo).
The Dornishmen hate Doran, as we see. They despise him so much that they don’t protect him when the coup happens. This is explicitly shown and explained via dialogue. Is it really so difficult to imagine Trystane’s guards feel the same way?
I disagree with your opinion very much. I have hope for the rest of the series, but I absolutely think that the Dorne scenes were very poorly executed.
you aren’t to smart are you?
They don’t guard his body…. they barricaded there to not be killed by the traitors and waiting for the wilding to bring down throne.
The issue with Dorne is mainly that we have not been emotionally invested in any of the characters other than Oberyn. Do they still have a role in the great scheme? I thought they would be Dany’s 1st allies when she lands? Are the SS now going to be the Frey’s 2.0? Let’s see how this evolves.
koempel,
See.
I didn’t really like the Sparrow scenes and thought the Wall besides Davos was preaty underwhelming.
We just have different tastes when this story is concerned.
Because during the Memory walk we agreed on a lot of things.
I don’t want to argue over Dorne, I thought it was good, you thought it was bad, it’s a perfectly valid opinion. But please just don’t say I did this ”just to be controversial”.
I just happen to like it.
She is not ignoring anything. She is just looking at the scenes with an open mind, unlike some people.
The show did not miss the mark with Dorne in THIS episode. It was good stuff!
Can we all take a moment to appreciate how good of an actor Ben Crompton is? I don’t think I’ve ever seen a face as heartbroken as Edd’s, except maybe Davos in S5E10
How about you let people like what they like?
Esmail,
That is perfectly fine! A valid opinion.
I’m not arguing Dorne was ”good”
I’m arguing with people saying, that I said this things ”just to be controversial” or ignore ”poor execution”. That is all.
I just don’t share your opinion, on this matter, on others we could easly find that we agree with one another, that is all.
No worries. I shouldn’t waste my time for this, but at least that person brought up some points that could start a debate.
So who else is on that ship? Where is Bronn? Who are the guards? Hotah is clearly a supporter of Doran. Whose to say whoever else on that ship isnt? You suspend your belief to assume that everyone is going to go along with a coup. And thats the problem. D&D made a mess of the plotline to where fans have to come up with explanations for how its possible when there isnt anything clearly shown in the show. So Hotah was oblivious as the head guardsmen to everyone else in the Water Gardens suddenly supporting the SS? When did this happen?
Again, poor execution and forcing the audience to leap several steps to justify what they just saw, even though there was no precedent for it before. The SS up until the moment Doran is killed had no following outside of themselves in the show. And then all of a sudden they have rallied all the soldiers to their cause, EXCEPT the leader, Hotah?
What a mess.
another idiot who talks without any understanding. Why do you even bother to watch the show? Trystane was not back in dorne when he was killed. He was on the boat, when they arrived in king landing.
I knew the Dorne stuff was going to be controversial among book readers when I saw the leaks. I kinda dreaded watching it, because the execution of the Dorne scenes was often poor in season five. So I was pleasently surprised when the scenes were so well delivered. They even made a point to show why the coup was essentially allowed to happen —Doran was just that hated by his people because of his inaction. I though it was great. This episode also leaves us in the same position as we were left at the end of ADWD —with Dorne preparing for war agaisnt the crown.
I don’t suspend anything. We saw it literally in the previous scenes. The guards’ looks of disgust at Doran. Ellaria literally explaining it, too.
Zalos,
HE.
But people make this mistake very often so I don’t mind it…that much. 🙂
The Dornish are the only ones who were able to resist the Targaryen dynasty as they knew how to fight dragons. I don’t think Dany will go running to them personally
Because this is a thread about the show, and we are free to discuss what we like and dont like. Pretty simple. I enjoyed most of the episode. Im only criticizing what I didnt like. If thats not allowed, then forgive me.
Connor,
He’s been dead for hours, his blood is completely frozen. BUT!!!! He hasn’t turned into a Wright yet….
Dragonmcmx,
The ‘secondary’ characters are all fantastic Edd, Pod, Bron, Thorne, Davos….
Literally the first thing we saw of Dorne in season five was Ellaria confronting Doran and saying they have the love of their people, unlike Doran. Maybe you don’t want to watch the show on its own terms (I do miss “Vengeance. Justice. Fire and blood”), but as it’s been presented Doran is an innefective ruler and the people hate him.
Hara,
I don’t think anyone turned if he was behind the Wall.
Mihnea,
Like you, I did like the Water Gardens scene. Probably my favorite thing in the episode. Wouldn’t have minded the Trystane thing if he just acknowledged Myrcella’s death to the SS (I can excuse the SS landing on the boat. I think even Bronn might have had a hand in it).
Doran was hated only because Ellaria happened to tell him as he lay dying? There was no other indiction that he was hated? Were his people suffering? Were they starving? We dont see anything of the sort. We dont see anything at all honestly. Its all just very thrown together, and thats part of the Dorne problem. They just dont put very much time into developing it. Its just “the people hate Doran, he dies. The SSs just somehow get onto Trystanes ship a 1000 miles away. He dies. The End.”
Well, to be honest, I didn’t mind the Dorne part, that is Ellaria murdering Doran. Although I regret Alexander Siddig.
But yes, it seemed plausible enough. A monarch that has lost the faith of this people. And an ambitious, cruel woman with revenge in her mind. I like Indira Varma.
What I hated was the sand snakes. No matter how and when they got to Trystane’s ship. That is easy to explain.
But they are caricatures. Really don’t convince anyone of their warrior skills. More like juvenile deliquents with very bad attitude. They seriously give the impression that if they ever come across a real warrior, he/she will take them out in 10 seconds. Unless of course they stabb him/her in the back.
Then again, they are snakes.
But how can they be the offspring of a man like Oberyn Martell?
I thought it was a really good episode let down only by Dorne, although Doran’s death scene was not terrible. I feel they could have done this a little better and the Tristane thing was really out of place – how did the Sand snakes get on the boat and arrive so quickly?
That episode caught up with everyone but left me wanting more, I wanted Jon back (pretty obvious Mel is going to be involved and he’s coming back mind), I think next one the traitors are going to get hammered, we may also see a few more named character deaths.
Literally the scene that introduced the Dorne plot to us in season five told us the Sand Snakes have the love of their people and Doran doesn’t, because the Dornishmen want to go to war for revenge. I’m not saying they’re being smart; as you said, they’re not starving or anything like that. Revenge is a poor choice. But it is a very realistic choice.
My apologies.
The Dragon Demands,
I agree with you. Without the book plot of the Pink Letter, what do Thorne et al hope to achieve except revenge against Jon’s decisions? How do they hope to proceed from here? It’s not like they are going to be able to send the wildlings back.
Hodor Targaryen,
Yes! I thought I’m the only one who think Doran’s death decent. Just needs more foreshadowing in S5. I agree with your point on Trystane too
Well I enjoyed it. Seems like a good starting off point to start tying up some storylines and getting people together.
I think some people get too caught up on trying to find every little plot hole, and forget to just enjoy the show. Another thing is people wanting the show version of the characters to be exactly like the books. Look, Doran in the books will likely back a losing cause (Aegon), while the sand snakes create some chaos here and there. Losing Doran and Trystane is no big loss if Aegon isn’t around anyway.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Agree on Trystane showing a bit more emotion. But I think he was just suprised by his cousins.
I really don’t get the hate of the events in Dorne, the Dornish seem mostly based on Basque Spaniards, who are known to live by the vendetta, sometimes irrationally so, and the removal of Doran, a man who has allowed not one, but two siblings to be killed by outsiders with no consequences is completely in line with that.
I could do the exact same thing you just did here… Its all speculation, but my point is that everything that you are supposing isnt really developed at all. You are just thinking out loud how to justify what you just saw. Im saying that the Dorne part of the show is woefully underdeveloped and we are forced to just go along with a lot that hasnt been explained or shown in any detail.
The show has done a much better job with the rest of the world. If the point is that the SSs take control of Dorne, thats all good and fine, but the show did a lousy job of developing that plot line compared to the rest of the show, and that is disappointing.
El-Bobbie,
Agree. It’s easy to see who is a book reader and who is not.
Anyway there are countless theories that Doran will die in the books. He is a lot more sick there.
All in all Dorne was a pleasent suprise in a set-up episode. Nothing was amazing, but they needed this after all the cliffhangers in S5.
The Night’s Jester,
Heeey! Basque here. I can attest to that, at least as a stereotype.
We’re quite red-blooded here. Family feuds that go back for generations are not uncommon in small towns, especially years ago.
House Applebee,
I don’t know how you guys can think this means we won ‘t get anymore Dorne in the show. After all, something has to come from the events that played out there tonight. The prince and son are dead and Ellaria is going to start a war with the Lannisters. The SS are in KL. Of course there will, unfortunately, be more Dorne stuff to follow.
It is my understanding you need the Nights King or (maybe a White Walker) to turn you to a wight. It is not like a Walking Dead zombie where your blood is already infected
The Night’s Jester,
Hmmm can you expend on the Basque thing? It seems really interesting.
Oh the hate is normal. While watching the episode I fully expected it. It doesn’t bother me anymore. I just watch the show and enjoy it.
Can’t wait for the scene in the next episode in which Areo Hotah asks Tyene for the antidote against the knife in his back!
The Mummer’s’ Dragon,
Yes, and Thorne didn’t exactly convince/explain what he hoped to achieve very well with his speech to the NW tonight either. I also didn’t like the looks of resignation among the brothers in that room. There should have been more push back than what was showed after such a bold and treasonous act. Tbh, it’s just one of the things that is not meshing for me. I know it’s fantasy but that doesn’t mean the human characters don’t need to act and react in believable ways.
i dont know what people want from the dorne scene, i liked it, probably people just automatically agree with the review and wanna be mainstream majority opinion without thinking themselves, loved the ending scene too, it was great, i never liked the mellisandre actress, i think i m maybe the only one enjoying seeing the old version of her(i assume played by diffrent actress + cgi), than the younger original yet boring one
How is that hard to believe? The long distance actually makes it easier to believe. They could have left days later in a faster ship. It’s not like they didn’t know where they were going. Also, do you really think Jaime’s ship would be the only ship on the sea? They probably came across dozens of ships along the way. Even if they were close enough for Jaime to spot their ship they could have disguised as a merchant ship or fishing vessel.
Already been explained. Your stubborn insistence this plot doesn’t make sense is simply because you’re so married to the book plot you cannot separate yourself from it.
But if we must rehash this again, and it seems we do …
Remember that the election itself was a tie, broken only by Aemon’s vote. So at that point NW is roughly 50% Thorne and 50% Snow.
If Thorne blocks Snow and the wildings from going through the wall, he risks a massive insurrection with his 50% fighting against Snow’s 50%. This would lead to a lot of deaths on both sides. And it’d be a completely moot point because the wildings had a giant and enough men that they could break through the gate anyway. So all of the deaths would be for nothing. Add that Thorne cares more about the NW than he hates Snow, and that’s why he opened the gates.
The action of letting the wildings go through, of course, turned some of the NW who were on the fence against Snow. But not enough. It’s probably now a 60/40 split. Thorne, however, was able to get the officers on his side.
Again, another reason why Thorne waited. Bar Snow and the wildings at the gate, and 100% of the blame for Snow’s death goes to him. But get the officers (and Ollie) involved, and now he only bears part of the blame of Snow’s death. What are the angry NW men going to do? Kill him *and* the entire crop of officers?
Then Thorne goes and gives his Brutus speech, and he convinces the group of NW who were not extremely loyal to Snow to side with him and support his actions.
There’s nothing confusing or illogical about it. The Pink Letter is completely immaterial.
The Dorne storyline, on the other hand … Yeah, I can’t help you with that. Definitely the worst part of GoT so far. I’m pretty sure that if D&D had a redo, they’d completely cut Dorne out.
Hey folks,
Most important… I guess, I can change my screen name. Far to dangerous to be a Martell in these times!
This part of 601 was quite underwhelming. The best thing is: it is over now. I was wondering, if this tiny bit of scribt was a reaction to the criticism last year. In my opinion this “kill’em all!”-bit would have suited perfectly in the last episode (510). Now, this bit stands solitary and isolated in between the other Arcs, that are being refreshed.
Anyway… without using the word “lame”, I thought the sand snakes rather were sand snails. Toothless, sluggish and (sompared with the other Arcs) embedded in an environment, were they somehow did not fit in. Sand Snail… sounds like a good new screen name. With the permition of her Grace, Sue the Fury, First of her name, I’d like to save my Dornish soul in disguise…
The Wall: I liked it! Although, it made me scream. I was angry at the producers, that they let us watch the cliffhanger a little longer… I want more! Now! Certainly, I was a victim to the producers goal, to keep us longing for a solution of the crow dilemma.
I was a little underwhelmed with Melisandre’s Anti-Aging neckless. Nice idea, nice gift to tin foil book purists, but it did not add anything new to the character. Yeah, she is a mysterious woman with magical powers. That did not change…
I would rather explore one thing now: Her faith is shaken. She always emphazises, that her power comes from her faith… Now she obviously has still some powers, although her faith is almost lost. Does she hold magical powers apart from the gifts R’hllor has made to her? Maybe we will find out. I’ll try to be patient.
Sansa Connection: As expected. No surprise, solid, and romantic (Sansa’s vow…) I wonder, if Briennes Oath to Sansa will be tobic in Episode 3… Oathbreaker…
Kings Landing: Another stunning acting from Lena and Nicolai. I like the chemistry they share. It is not easy to transport this relationship, that is sometimes so pure and innocent and f*#$5d up at the same time…
Braavos: Poor Arya… What perspectives! Blind, hungry and a daily beat-up. I am looking forward to her development. What I don’t quite understand. I assume, the FM have good intentions, as they seem to understand, “the gift” as a form of justice or mercy… But why is the Waif always designed with that attitude “I am the cunt in that story!” In my opinion, Arya does not need an antagonist. Still, really looking forward to the next Braavos episodes!
One thing, that did not change – and that is very psoitive! – I cannot wait! Where is 602?! 😀
KG,
Agreed on Dorne. Totally agreed. Just move on!
…I am of the night….mwahahahahaha
On more happy thoughts Dany’s scene with Khal Moro was just amazing.
Seeing a naked women for the first time is AMONG the five best things in the world!
And the way the scene ends with ”it is known” witch is a book fandom obsession was also nice.
Emilia like always was amazing.
You can make up whatever you want, I suppose. Thats one of the things that GoT has done a good job of for the most part, not forcing the audience to come up with unseen justifications for how something on the show just happened, so they can feel good about the show… As I have said previously, the Dorne portion of the show, including Trystanes demise, has been woefully underdeveloped.
Actually, the Trystane scene reminds me of the part of Monty Pythons Search for the Holy Grail where Lancelot is riding toward the castle, and the two guards see him getting closer… and then suddenly hes far away again, and then they see him getting closer… and then hes far away again, and then they see him getting closer… and then hes far away again….
And then hes running them through. LOL Its like, wtf, where did he come from? He was a mile away, and then all of a sudden there he his killing them.
Its like that. But hey, whatever, the rest of the episode was good.
Calling people idiots and telling them they aren’t too smart is a disagreeable way to get one’s point across imo.
Let’s just say that I agree with Sue’s recap about the “confused mess” bit in regards to Dorne. Mind you, Dorne is a confused mess in the books too. I’d rather just focus on the many other good parts from the episode, like Davos turning into an Epic Big Boss Man, Ghost finally looking like a massive Giant Direwolf (thanks CGI budget!), Brianne’s face as she received the Lord’s Troth from Sansa, the redemption of freakin’ Theon Greyjoy, Varys and Tyrion in witty conversation, Emilia’s vastly improved acting when speaking Dothraki, and the awesome music in this episode, easily one of the best in the series in regards to musical cues. I also thought that the Jaime-Cersei scene in this episode was easily the best scene of them together in the whole series.
I’d rather not think about Dorne at all, at least until Danny lands there with Yara’s ships, next season.
That’s pretty much how I figured it as well. That Mel had her own personal source of magical power and that powered her glamour. The red necklace was basically her “battery” so to speak, but wasn’t her source.
When she took the red necklace off, it was to indicate that she had essentially reached the nadir of her faith, not to remove the glamour.
To be fair to the critics, though, TV is a visual medium and the director muddled that message by tying in the red necklace so much with Mel’s power (having it glow when she drank that poison in her first appearance, for example) so I definitely understand why so many people were confused and sees it as a plot hole. Hopefully this is clarified in a future episode.
Yes,
The rest of the episode was largely very good.
Agreed. I wish they dispensed with the magic gem powers altogether. The losing of the faith could’ve been enough.
Esmail,
I agree the Dorne story has been underdeveloped. As I said above, I’m not a fan of how they have handled Dorne but to me it’s only a minor thing and it doesn’t effect my overall enjoyment of the show. I’m just saying the logistics of what they did can be rationalized without the show explicitly going into it. They are obviously in blitzkrieg mode to get to the endpoint so they are not going to have time to go into every little detail.
Dragonmcmx,
Lol. Imagine if they really put that dialogue in the show. And how funny it would sound coming out of Davos’ mouth? That would be even more shocking than old naked Mel (well to some of us.)
Great round-up!
Sansa & Brienne’s vow was one of my highlights, although interestingly the moment that had me close to tears was the long, slow close-up of Cersei’s face as she realised that her beloved daughter was only returning home as a corpse. There are times when I want to reach through the screen and strangle Cersei, but somehow the fact that she’d got through the most horrible ordeal only to have to deal with Myrcella’s death on top of everything else still got to me. A testament to both Lena’s acting and the way the character’s been written.
I was left both hugely underwhelmed and irritated by the Mel twist at the end, because I kind of already figured she wasn’t everything she seemed, and it just felt that while the entire piece was set up to be the big shock finish of the episode, I couldn’t care at all because it’s meant to distract me from what’s happening with Jon and it failed spectacularly 😛 I have to say though, while part of me wondered if she would attempt to resurrect him this episode, I’m not surprised that the concept was never even mentioned. They will make us squirm over this!
The Dragon Demands,
They selfishly did what they thought was selfless. Their statements are not contradictory at all, merely two different perspectives. One states that they acted selfishly in being consumed by their irrational xenophobia; the other states that while this may be the case, they truly believed what they were doing was best “for the Watch.”
Wow. I’m glad some people enjoyed the episode, in my opinion it was one of the worst GoT episodes ever. My expectations were way too high, so I guess it’s my own fault. They missed out on a great opportunity to start the season with Bran and/or Mel’s visions, you know, the stuff that’s going to matter in the long run, and lay some groundwork for why it’s important to resurrect Jon and why Mel is going to help him, but they apparently thought that revealing Mel’s age and the fact that she has powers was enough for the season premiere?? I don’t understand that logic.
I wonder how much them not wanting Jon to be resurrected in the episode that’s shown at the premiere influenced the decision to keep the pacing of the Wall storyline this slow. I wish they’d have concentrated on the north storylines and left the KL, Mereen and Dorne stuff out. The episode dragged for me. It’s fine, I guess they want to take their time, it was just really frustrating to watch. I loved the Sansa and Davos scenes, and Mel too, it’s just baffling how little of Mel we saw in an episode called the Red Woman..
I think the idea was not just showing Melisandre is more than she seems but showing it to prove she will be useful, as Davos said in the previous scene to the men of the Night’s Watch. “What can a redhead do against all of them?” Well… probably a lot!
Agree with every word of this. Although it seemed that Dorne was the only place where anything of note actually happened, I’d much rather that attention have been given to the North.
I take your point, though, that they were trying to avoid progressing that storyline too much in the season premiere to avoid leaks. It’s a shame that things like this have to dictate the writing, though.
Ok, so there’s a clear difference between the execution of the Dorne scenes (and whether or not they made sense in-universe) and the fact that killing Doran and Areo is a complete waste of the characters, story, and actors, no matter what happens in the books.
I don’t have an issue with the execution, the scene in the Water Gardens is great, but I really find it’s a waste.
Also, I see a lot of people complaining about why Bran’s not in this episode. How could that have been done? I mean there were seven cliffhangers that needed to be addressed.
Having watched it again I love most of it, though the episode lacks one or two longer scenes. The only (reasonably) lengthy scenes were at the Wall (first with Jon’s body, the the NW discussion with Thorne (props to Owen Teale, once again). The rest of the storylines were just short scenes. I’m thinking the next episode will have a somewhat similar issue (we’ll check in with Bran, The Wall, WF, KL, Braavos and Meereen at least), and we’ll really get to the juicy parts of storylines from episode 3 onwards.
You don’t see it because it’s not there. In the making of -video of that scene it’s animal blood that’s pumped through tubes and flowed naturally. No hidden messages there.
because it is spilled in a shape of a fire-breathing dragon
Connor,
Evi,
I had the same reaction as you. I was disappointed, but also surprised because at least one of the actors, I believe Emilia for one, said something like right from the beginning it’s going to be exciting. Now, that might be some people’s definition of exciting and that’s fine, but I don’t think the discovery of dead Jon, a little speech by Alliser, one minute of Melisandre doing nothing but looking at her true form in a mirror and going to bed, Tyrion and Varys walking through town, Dany having dialogue with the Dothraki, Cercei recognizing her daughter is dead and not raging over it but instead going into quiet dialogue with Jamie and the murder of 2 people in Dorne would qualify. I guess had I not been spoiled at the Sansa/Theon plot I might have enjoyed that revelation of how they get rescued but I didn’t love the way it was executed regardless. All of a sudden Brienne just shows up out of nowhere.
I see what you mean, but where that fell down for me was Melisandre’s utterly despondent mood. I don’t think I’ve ever seen her look so sad and broken; in fact, although I now think that scene was merely showing her going to bed as normal, at the time it felt very much like an act of resignation. There was something very deliberate and considered about the removing of the necklace, as though she knew she wouldn’t be putting it on again. Perhaps that’s because she intends to use it to glamour someone else, but I don’t know if she actually believes she can do anything to help with the dead Jon/trapped loyalists situation.
Luka Nieto,
I don’t get the sense right now that this scene proves in any way how she will be useful. It shows her feeling defeated, and resigned to the loss of her faith if anything.
How GoT is dealing with time is very strange. The issues at the wall are happening in a day with an evening deadline. Every other part of the world is moving much quicker.
Ygritte,
Oh sure. I just mean that it shows she’s not a complete fraud, even if she’s completely despondant. Well, it reminds us, anyway, as we already saw her do some powerful magic in season two. But that was a long time ago.
Redxgod,
It has always been like this.
I was wondering about this, too.
Also, did anyone else notice (and get slightly irritated by) Tyene having somewhat longer hair in her brief appearance than the last time we saw her? Clearly some time has passed, but not long enough for a close crop to turn into a bob if Doran has only just found out about Myrcella?
Or am I being too picky?
The last season premiere (501) was stronger… Without the Dornish storys fracture, I still really enjoyed this episode.
Only, I wonder if D&D were quite optimistic, when they said, there was no “weak episode” Of course, this can only be judged by comparing it to other episodes. And I hope, this premiere will not set the standard for the further episodes…
Somehow it feels more obvious now than before…
Lex,
Names? Names can always be changed. If Obara starts to style herself ‘Martell’, who will tell her otherwise?
look again you will see a fire breathing dragon
http://s31.postimg.org/5hjy42l17/jon_snow_dragon.png
TheSnarkAtWinterfell:
Connor,
I saw on a recap it resembles a dragon but i certainly don’t see it
Sand Snails,
This had the feeling of a part one with part two of the premier coming next week. But this whole season seems rightly to be about the North.
Not Today,
Extensions.
Regarding Mel, my theory is that after it is revealed that Jon is a Targ in the ToJ flashback, he will resurrect in the fire at his funeral pyre. Mel will witness this and realize that everything she thought about Stannis was actually Jon and it will rejuvenate her and she will commit herself and her powers to Team Jon.
The Sansa scenes early in the episode were really fantastic. Sansa and Theon were awesome. Some very tender moments of them crossing the ice river and then huddling together. Then Theon going out and risking his life when the Bolton men arrived. And of course Sansa working her way through the oath recital. Brilliant stuff. Pad, Brienne, Theon and Sansa is a crew I hope we stick with for at least couple of episodes.
I was worried that they were going to change the character of Sansa to appease the complainers, but she is one of the more vulnerable characters and I’m glad they kept it that way. Doesn’t mean she can’t grow or that she doesn’t have some wolf in her, but if she does it will be realistic within the confines of the character.
Yaga,
People will most likely encourage them to do that.
It’s clear that Doran was hated in Dorne.
Oh man, Ser Barristan was hard enough but to totally disrespect the epicness of Areo Hotah
Looking forward to Preston Jacobs spontaneously combusting!…
Agree, the Thorne scene was actually quite good, and it is good that it is a rather Opaque point, have to remember what he said when the position was reversed at the battle for the Wall regarding blocking up the Tunnel, and now he has done it from the other perspective. Owen Teale has been fantastic
Got some chuckle out of the Dany scenes “one of the top five things then…”
Cersei’s full range of emotions was well done. Good job to Lena Headey
Great stuff between Sansa and Brienne, I guess this is thematically the point where Sansa is rising as an Authority figure – I suspect though she is being given Rickons arc though, as a merger of Rickon and her own which revolves around becoming an authority figure in the Riverlands/Vale
Perhaps the highlight for me though was Ser Davos being a total boss from the very beginning, he’s going to really shine this season I suspect – though personally given he was talking “Knight to Knight” I actually thought he was honest and I’m not sure he would have killed Ser Davos, he has tenuous control of the NW men at best after killing the LC, killing Ser Davos who along with Mel has Guest Right and Brothers presiding over the dead body of the LC would risk an uprising
Great to see the Glamour theory regarding Mel confirmed, this is like Valyrian Steel again
LatrineDiggerBrian,
I was so happy seeing Pod fighting!
TheSnarkAtWinterfell,
This.
Show Dorne is just the worst. They should have cut it all instead of including their own set of characters and events dressed up with the names of characters from the books. Show Ellarya is the polar opposite of book Ellaria (hearty pacifist vs murdering psychopath). Show Doran died a whimp whereas in the book he was the discreet badass with a plan. Areo was supposed to be a badass, but the show rendered him an extra (why include him at all???). And the Sand Snakes…. even those two dimensional abarrations had respect for family in the books and would never think of disobeying Doran let alone kinslaying (which is why they weren’t even part of Arrianne’s plot in the books).
And I won’t even mention how silly and contrived it was that Trystaje just stays in his boat and the Sand Snajes teleport onto it so conveniantly. And Ellarya and Tyene seeming surprised by the messenger is equally stupid. Are we lead to believe they were just waiting for Doran to hear the news to initiate their coup? Really?
Now, I’m no purist- hell, I’m a detractor and proud of it- but man is Dorne a stinking pile of shit. Seriously, it’s as if D&D flipped to the Dorne chapters in AFFC, sat on the pages bare-ass and sprayed diarreah all over them… I have no idea where this is going, but I hope it ends quickly and violently for all the characters involved.
Otherwise it was a fantastic premiere that ended all too quickly.
Hexonx,
I still think Bran will be the key to Mel getting her faith back. He will come to her in a vision/dream
Mihnea,
Bit of trivia : this is the first season premiere that dragons were not present in any form
I liked the scene with khal Moro and looks like we will be getting more of him on her side ..
Yesterday we were speaking about Emilia not getting that much funny scenes playing dany..
And today I can’t stop laughing at the expressions she gave when qohno and other guy were talking about her hair and other things …its like she wanted to get back at them and let them know she understands them but kept herself controlled to reveal to khal Moro..
Iam glad the emilia as dany and dothraki are coming back to the center of the story again after two season of sidelining
‘a greedy bitch…’ Is that D&D’s meta-comment to anyone in the audience who dares to criticize their immaculate dialogue skills (re: ‘a bad pussy…’) and ask for something more? It’s like they’re saying, so you didn’t like our characterizations last season, well we’ll just give you more of the same!
Continuing in this puerile vein, they even made Tyrion explain his joke to Varys — ‘it’s because you don’t have a cock…[that’s why you’re not a ‘boy’ anymore, get it?!].’ Please, I think Varys is smart enough and quick enough to understand the subtext of Tyrion’s humor, let alone having surely heard more than his fair share of predictable ‘eunuch’ jokes, without having it spelled out to him or us for that matter. A suggestive look passing between them and a quizzically raised eyebrow by an actor who happens to have excellent comic timing would’ve sufficed to make the point.
Lest I’m accused of being impossibly negative, let me affirm that it’s perfectly possible to enjoy the show, while at the same time being critical of those jarring moments!
Regarding the Dornish ‘twist’ (it’s as groanworthy as the ‘Meereenese knot’!) it’s not the violence per se I’m reacting to, nor the fact that they’re perversely killing off favorite characters for their own expedience. The Red Wedding was poetic and moving. In contrast, the Dornish assassinations were just trite and irritating. And once one irritates ones audience, one starts losing them — maybe not their attention but their affection.
On a logistical note, what I don’t understand is why Jaime didn’t make more of an effort to take charge of Trystane once Myrcella had died. Why was he left alone on a boat and not in the Red Keep in safe custody? If he had to remain on the boat, he could have at least been left with Bronn, or some Dornish bodyguards (I guess we’re supposed to believe the Sand Snakes killed them all). The crown prince of Dorne would’ve been a valuable hostage if Jaime is really serious in his stated intent to take back everything and more no-holds-barred from their enemies.
Once again, the Dornish plot wore thin. Finally, I agree with all those pointing out the ridiculousness of Ellaria and the Sand Snakes ostensibly avenging a number of dead Martells by killing a number of other Martells! D&D should guard against their scripts devolving into this sort of queasy unintentional irony.
In season 5 they (D&D) had a self-conscious meta-conversation with themselves which was quite revealing in one of the episodes which they co-wrote (and which cannot be attributed to GRRM since it is not present in the novels) over the necessity of violence as a condition for greatness in entertainment, namely the Daznak’s Pit conversation between Tyrion, Hizdahr, Dany, and Daario…(this was of course following feeling wounded by the criticism over how they’d orchestrated Sansa’s rape, so they needed to shore up their egos and remind each other and us that violence pays big dividends).
It’s debatable whether violence is a necessary condition; however, even so, it doesn’t necessarily follow that it is a ‘sufficient’ one. Therefore, inserting random acts of violence willy-nilly will not necessarily guarantee artistic greatness. An act of violence should not leave the audience feeling cold. Tonight their little ‘schtick’ left many feeling numb– angry yes, but numb. A pity in an otherwise promising opening episode.
On the ‘plus’ side: Despite killing off two great actors and unfortunately sparing three tedious ones, at least they have left us with several outstanding actors who showcased their talents to great effect. Those who shone in this episode included Lena Headey, Alfie Allen, Sophie Turner, Gwendoline Christie, Liam Cunningham, Carice van Houten, Jo Naufahu, Maisie Williams, and Quigly the wolf (or was that CGI?!)
Balerion’s Breath,
http://s31.postimg.org/5hjy42l17/jon_snow_dragon.png
Opss
Redxgod,
Which scenes? I don’t think there were any characters that were visited more than once to show passage of time except the Wall. Seemed like everything happened during the day except the Castle Black stuff.
Dany – 1x
Kings Landing – 1x
Dorne – 1x
Winterfell – 1x
Sansa / Theon / Brienne / Pad – 1x
Jorah / Daario – 1x
Mereen – 1x
Are you counting the dragon eggs in the show’s premiere, then?
That’s the joke… It’s what’s called a non-joke or anti-joke.
The hate is just great here.
Love that D&D stuck with what they wanted to write.
Starting to actaully love Dorne and hope to see more of it now.
Can’t wait for the unsullied post. All this complaining about book changes really starts to annoy me.
Really need o find a show only place….
Mihnea,
YES. Nice also to see Theon returning and Reek being excised.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Yeah that was great!
Ghosts Lunch,
Hotah ”epic”. LOL…
Wasn’t the biggest complaint about him that he is beyond boring.
My thoughts exactly.
Also Jamie would have no problem with Aero Hotah just stab him with a tiny knife in the back.
So many plot holes in this episode, the Dothraki know Khal Drago but never knew he married a white hair girl.
At least the end confirmed Mel’s age.
Still looking forward to this and future seasons, to finally get a conclusion to the story.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
True. But the areas are interlink time wise. Jaime traveling from Dorne to KL and word of Mycella’s death going the other way.
Cant believe everyone here is being so narrow-minded. Why isnt anyone looking at the OBVIOUS answers to everything? Months of speculation have caused everyone to get incredibly confused when things dont go exactly how they expected it. That doesnt mean everything is a ‘plothole’ as clearly none of you know what that word even means.
1. Bolton hounds disappearing? Please watch the scene again. You can clearly hear the hounds running into the distance when they see Brienne and Pod charging in. Note that these are not the killer Ramsey hounds, but more like blood hounds.
2. Littlefinger’s jetback handed to the Sand Snakes? Are you guys from WOTW or Westeros.org? The last we see of the SS are them at the shore looking at the ship. They could’ve (and probably had) immediately planned to get on another boat following them after Ellaria takes the antidote. It looks like Trystane’s boat was docked right outside KL for a few hours. Its not entirely unconceivable that the SS managed to catch up in that timeframe.
3. Mel’s necklace may not be the only thing preserving her youth. We got clear focusing on the potions aswell in that scene and we also see Mel using potions in the Season 4 scene with Selyse.
4. Alliser Thorne let Jon and the wildings in initially because at that moment in time his heart wasnt dead set on letting them die. You could clearly tell he was in two minds when he let them in.
These interpretations are pretty base level. As a semi-Unsullied (havent read the books but follow this site and have more or less an idea of how things go down in the books), these werent confusing at all. Ofcourse i wont get into changing of book plots. From what i’ve read, it seems like Doran and Areo were much more important in the books, but as D&D and GRRM himself have said time and time again, the show is the show and the books are the books. And show-watchers have barely any connection with Doran and Areo. I still would’ve preferred a streamlined version of the book story but complaining about the show abandoning the books is really silly at this point. I honestly thought followers of this site knew better.
Julia,
Nope. She said in season 2 about the dragons “they’re the only children I’ll ever have”.
Summer Child,
I think you’re reading way too deep into things if you think there is that much meta going on in the scripts or if you think D & D are taking shots at their critics or something.
And major reason why Jaime probably didn’t bring Trystane to the Red Keep is Cersei. She is as irrational as Ellaria is and would easily blindly kill Trystane just to satisfy her anger. Of course Jaime didn’t realize that he’d be coming back to a severely beaten down Cersei who didn’t even ask or care about who was responsible for Myrcella.
ser zigzag,
She only became white haired after she burnt drogo’s body and birthed the dragons.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
That’s what purists do.
They believe every change is a direct insult to them from the writers.
Redxgod,
I think some of it can be explained that there was a big passage of time between Cersei’s walk of shame and the last scenes at Castle Black in 5×10. That allowed Jorah and Daario to travel, Jaime to sail back to King’s Landing. But you’re right though in that the events in the North since 5×10 seemed to be operating on a one day time line while others are different. It’s just one of those things you have to excuse with so many story lines in so many locations.
Connor,
I wondered that too. I went back and paused it, in case there was something like a Stark or Targaryen symbol, but there wasn’t anything like that or if there was something there, I didn’t connect; just so much blood showing where he had lain for the torso.
Syed Kabir,
Hotah isn’t more important not at all.
He is a POV just because if Doran was there would be no suprise to the reader, and people complain the show uses ”shock factor”…
Doran is more important though. He has a long scheme…..that fails completely.
Another side story, Young griff, if you want I’ll tell you what it is, is cut from the show, rightly so in my opinion, it’s is one of GRRM worst ”reveal”.
He will likely get Dorne to his side.
But without him Doran is pointless. That’s why I like that they got rid of him.
Hotah in the books does 1 thing. When Myrcella’s kidnapped he kills a dude. No big fight, No long duel, no nothing.
He swings the axe and kills him in 1 blow….that’s it.
EDIT: Oh I forgot. He also reminds us at every turn how big sluts Oberyn’s girls are.
Luka Nieto,
Looking at it that way, I see what you mean. Her being immortal opens up a lot more mystery as thus far she’s been shown as simply being blessed with gifts by R’holler.
Luka Nieto,
Yes iam counting them ..
And after reading all the comments I wonder where these comments like they killed the wrong people and best actors are coming from ….since when the show was killing right people …no one ever said they killed wrong people and best actors during red wedding and Ned and oberyn ..
And about doran being badass and his master plan …I have to laught at this ..his master plan was to sit silent until all his enemies are dead and launch war when the lannisters are done …send a son to marry a girl for whom they never cared until she gained dragons and armies and what’s worse sending the son with only three guys and not send any ships or armies for helping her and bringing back to westeros…I like the guy he made a sensible decision knowing that going to war will only destroy dorne but he was not a master planner like some theory suggests .people need to differentiate what’s in the books and what are fan based theories ….its stannis all over again the plot was rushed and the characters were ovrrhyped due to the fan theories which lead to massive disappointments ..
About the fire and blood speech I never liked it because the reaction it got but whenever dany said it got opposite reactions….but I liked his speech about grass and snake on the books and ellaria spreach about revenge in books ..
I understand that show elllaria is not the book ellaria so it doesn’t bother me .
I would have preferred if areo get to use his axe at least once ..
Shame siddig will no longer will be in GOt ..
And I finally understand why Stephen dillane is so bitter about the Game of thrones because he learned the truth about Mel through Liam and Carrice
Jeff Rassuchine,
Rhllorism is a pretty new religion, based on old myths. To think that she is 8000 years old is crazy, especially because she is so wrong so many times and doesn’t really know that much about “the enemy” She could be a couple centuries old, or she might simply be a regular old lady that masks her true age to manipulate weak lustful men 🙂 There was some talk that she is 400 years old… that seems pretty strange, it overlaps with the doom of Valyria… but we haven’t seen anything to tie her to Valyrians. Just weird for the moment, we need to wait.
🙁
I want to like this season, I really do, but D & D make it so damn difficult. The way they’ve handled Dorne has felt like a slap in the face to me. If they’re not fans of that arc that’s fine, just cut the material out instead of taking a steaming dump all over it. First Stannis, now Doran and Areo Hotah……..Sigh. D & D can be so vicious towards characters they don’t like.
Overall the episode was ok but I found it difficult to stay interested after the events in Dorne. Mel’s reveal was cool I guess, although why she’s choosing to take a nap during a precarious time is a bit odd IMO.
Agree with Sue about the episode being erratic. This threw me off a little bit. I wanted to love it but came away liking it instead, giving it a 7 out of 10. For me the best scenes were of Sansa and Theon, then Sansa, Theon, Brienne and Podrick. The accompanying music was soulful and haunting. These scenes were 10 out of 10. Also the opening scene (Edd was the first to speak!) was chilling, seeing a dead Jon was bone-chilling, and Davos really impressed me with his desire to step up to the plate. Edd too was very proactive and since I’m a huge Edd fan I loved the scenes at the Wall almost as much as those with Sansa and Theon.
Dorne, alas, Dorne. It made me consider how I would have made an adaptation of the ASOIAF series differently. I have read on here ad infinitum about how Cersei on the show is a three-dimensional person rather than the two-dimensional character in the books. But my beef has always been why does she have to be three-dimensional? She is supposed to be a creature that is pure evil from birth. I would have cast a so-so actress to play her, one that would have been hated by the fans, as it should have been. Such a wonderful actress as Lena Headey has made Cersei too sympathetic and admired by fans and I guess it was felt necessary to prolong the scenes from Kings Landing in order to give her more air time as well as advancing the various plots going on there. I would have given Dorne some of that air time instead, kept Arianne in it so she could follow along with the books and go to meet Jon Connington and Aegon because I loved that part of the story. I would have kept Quentyn Martell in as well because I thought those scenes would have been compelling. They also add heft to Dany’s story. For me Dany is the main character and most of the focus in the episodes after the first season (which was excellent) should have been on her. The series is called Ice and Fire for a reason and that’s where the main focus should have been, IMO. Trying to make Kings Landing more important just made the series more unfocused and a bit messy. Political intrigue is fine but when it is all going to come to nothing, because surely Kings Landing will be wiped out (I am assuming that all of Dany’s visions in the House of the Undying will come true), then I believe it was a waste of time to spend so much of the show’s precious hours there. Except to further the various plots that developed in KL, I don’t think it was necessary to add made-up show characters like Ros and Olyvar and to have Tywin spend so much time with Arya doing nothing, which didn’t happen in the books and was unnecessary because of Tywin’s demise before he accomplished anything of note.
However, we are stuck with what we have, and I prefer to keep a positive attitude and hope that all the time-wasting will pay off in the end and that the show runners will redeem themselves.
My question is, Mel took her necklace off then she changed. There’s been episodes where she has totally naked and without her necklace. Why now are we just seeing this.
Not the most thrilling season opener but given where it left off it had to deal with the immediate repercussions and I’m not surprised that it didn’t resolve very much.
Didn’t like Dorne in the books and I’d rather they’d not covered it in the show, but the coup makes sense to me: Doran refused to do anything meaningful after Oberyn’s death after all. And there was a book plot to kill Trystane in ADWD, so the show more be taking more of a “what if?” direction and allowing the books to follow their own course (and remove unnecessary characters in the great scheme of things).
Rather fortuitous of Brienne to be appear in the right place at the right time but I suppose we can surmise that she heard the dogs and followed – and it did give us that very rewarding Brienne and Sansa scene.
Agree, what they have done is the equal of what the Mountain did to Elia – killed Oberyns sibling
Plus Oberyn spent decades planning his revenge, and did things like, oh I don’t know conversing with Tywin Lannister and agreeing to serve on the council which isn’t too far off what Doran was doing. Maybe he did have a revenge plan in the show universe…after all I’m sure there was a point in Oberyn making a big eleborate point of trying to get a confession out of the Mountain in front of the KL Court and Gods and Men etc etc. But I guess we are going down the path of bitter Ellaria as a mirror to bitter Cersei or something
Then of course, Ellaria continues to go on about how much Dorne hates Doran for no honouring his memory and what do they do, gee Oberyns paramour and bastard daughters have done is totally wipe out the legitimate Martell family line which of course includes any possible legacy for Oberyn as his dynasty is extinguished
Like last season and as always I’ll apply a “wait and see” as after rapegate, I could see the thematic point there after a few more episodes, I suspect there is a thematic point too regarding leaders being assassinated (Jon Snow), Theon not being able to continue the Greyjoy line – and of course Roose Bolton alluded to the Bolton dynasty – and a thematic similarity between the Martells and Greyjoys.
Did the show mention the duel with Lord Yronwood? Perhaps Ellaria is putting them into power, I think Dany reintroduced the “Rhoynar” title so maybe they will play up the Meditarranean like Rhoynar people vs the White First Men native inhabitants of Dorne as a kind of thematic twin to what is occurring between the Starks and Boltons up North
Not the most thrilling season opener but given where it left off it had to deal with the immediate repercussions and I’m not surprised that it didn’t resolve very much.
Didn’t like Dorne in the books and I’d rather they’d not covered it in the show, but the coup makes sense to me: Doran refused to do anything meaningful after Oberyn’s death after all. And there was a book plot to kill Trystane in ADWD, so the show more be taking more of a “what if?” direction and allowing the books to follow their own course (and remove unnecessary characters in the great scheme of things).
Rather fortuitous of Brienne to be appear in the right place at the right time but I suppose we can surmise that she heard the dogs and followed – and it did give us that very rewarding Brienne and Sansa scene.
Bloodhounds are just trackers, Ramsay wouldn’t send his killer dogs when Sansa need to be brought back alive.
dragonbringer,
Doran’s ”plan” is ridiculous.
Another story hyped by countless ”theories” that have become fact to some.
Doran’s plan is ridiculous, that is exactly why people invented ”the dornish master plan” to make it look somewhat smart.
This is Stannis all over again. This will only continue. Only WOW will finally shut them up. Even that will only last shortly though, because other theories will be invented and hardcore readers will embrace as holy words.
I completely agree with Sue’s review.
Favorire scene of the episode: Everything with Sansa, Theon , Brienne and Pod. Theon getting ready to sacrifice himself for Sansa and the scene where Sansa accepts Brienne’s fealty, both these scenes had me choking up. Brilliant performance by all the 4 actors involved!
Worst scene: Nym to Obara “You are a greedy bitch, you know” just as she had smilingly, literally backstabbed her own cousin. Urghh.
My one concern with the Wall scenes, which I thought were really good, was that it was much slower than I had anticipated. I had really hoped that Jon would be resurrected by ep 2. It seems more likely to happen in ep3 now, as ep2 will have the Wildlings vs Mutineers fight. I doubt there would be time for the resurrection too, what with all the other storylines requiring attention too. I truly hope they don’t drag this out any further.
I enjoyed it, although the Jon storyline is still rather unsettled. I, too thought the Dorne storyline was quite a fiasco. What is it about Dorne that they just can’t seem to get right? Everything else seems OK, but not Dorne. Well done for the Melisandre reveal, that was really something and so unexpected. At least for Dany, she is now on her way. “To go forward you must go back” I may not have the quote quite right, but that’s about it. Sansa and Theon, what happened to the dogs? I missed something there. Yes, good old Brienne, finally there to rescue Sansa. Why does everyone think Roose will get it? I think it could be Fat Walda, she could have a little accident, then if that doesn’t work out, then perhaps Roose could be targetted. Quite fitting for Myranda’s body to be fed to the dogs, as the kennel master’s daughter, nice touch that.
BTW I am not sure what is worse dialogue. The “Bad Pussy” line or those Dothraki pondering whether Dany has “White Pussy hair”. This show has won Emmy’s for writing, wtf.
I like to be surprised and Dorne Genuinely surprised the hell out of me. So, for that, I was actually happy.
Also I hate Dorne and everyone in it and associated with it in he books so I honestly don’t give a damn what happens to them. Therefore I have little stake in anything particular happening.
Like Sue, I think the Dorne section was badly handled.
Yes, I suppose that if you squint at it enough and shake it enough, the story can make sense. But there really wasn’t enough build-up on the show, and boy does it require a LOT of handwaving to make sense.
Sure, I suppose the two Sand Snakes could’ve waited a few hours (or even a day) then set sail on another ship. It’s not like it was a giant mystery where Trystane was heading (King’s Landing). There’s no need to track the ship. And it’s not like KL is a sparely populated area … it’s basically the New York City of Westeros, with a very busy port and tons of ships sailing in and out of the area. It’d be easy for one relatively inconspicuous ship to slide next to that gigantic boat with the Martell sails. And presumably, based on the previous scene, the guards are profoundly pro-Ellaria/Snakes, and do not give a fuck about Doran and his heirs. So, yeah, I can handwave away an explanation for how the Sand Snakes ended up on that ship and were able to kill Trystane.
But here’s the problem. I should not have to come up with all of those explanations on my own to explain away this scene. All the producers needed to do was to have a short scene with the Sand Snakes sailing up to the Martell ship on another boat, and the guards looking at them knowingly and letting them onboard. Then cue the murder of Trystane. Boom, a “plot hole” is fixed!
(As for where Bronn was … duh, he obviously came off the ship with Jamie. That particular nitpick is silly. And at least it explains why Ellaria didn’t care that she just killed Mrycella with Trystane on the ship … she didn’t care if he lived or died, and was going to kill him as well anyway.)
But ultimately, the fact that I have to do a great deal of mental gymnastics to explain away the scene is why the Dorne part fell so flat. GoT is usually very good about avoiding those sorts of pitfalls. It’s pretty clear that D&D basically just looked at the whole Dorne plot from S5 and decided “fuck it, let’s just wipe that away and pretend it never happened.”
Josh L.,
If the guards were in on it, then why have the SS there at all, the guards could have killed everyone in their sleep any time during the trip to KL, thrown the bodies overboard (maybe keep the heads, to send to Cersei ), then sailed back to Dorne and join in on the coup.
viki,
Obara and Nym will likely remain in KL.
momi,
That is some of the wish-iest wishing I’ve ever run across.
Yeah I used to post on Westeros.org where it was 100x worse. Actually only quit because I wanted to avoid spoilers, but when I came here and realized it was much more show friendly (and much better about spoilers), I knew I had found a keeper!
In the Arya and Waif scene, I kept thinking what would Syrio Forel have said. “Listen with your ears” or something very similar. In the book, the blindness is part of the learning curve to be a faceless man, so that she learns to use all her senses, and I think this is what it is about in the show, so that she learns to use her hearing and possibly touch as well as her sight.
Eh, in that same amount of time Cersei’s hairdo went through the same amount of growth. Remember that Sunspear is quite far from King’s Landing. It probably took the Martell ship (which didn’t seem that fast) a few weeks to reach King’s Landing — enough time for everybody’s hair to grow out.
I just rewatch THAT scene.
I have to say, the final shot with Ellaria over Doran’s body is beautiful.
I love how the guards just stand there. They don’t even flinch.
It’s clear how much they hated Doran’s rule.
Donna,
Yeah! I loved how we could hear a lot of voices!
Also, did you notice that during that scene, someone is saying:”heard about that kingsguard”?
I don’t get it. Seriously do not understand the motivations of Ellaria and the Sand Snakes. Oberyn willingly entered into a trial by combat. He willingly taunted the mountain when he could have killed him. The Lannisters had zero, absolutely ZERO to do with this death. But they murder his beloved brother because they want revenge for what the Lannisters did yo Oberyn. IT MAKES NO SENSE. Whoever wrote this Dorne stuff has just completely gone bonkers. COMPLETELY BONKERS. I could even give up on this show because I feel this Dorne crap just points to how poor the writing for the rest of the show will be. When they don’t follow the books THEY ARE TERRIBLE writers.
So a few men are seen showing disgust of their leader, that means all of Dorne feels the same? With that logic anything is possible – just find a few people to agree with you and of course it must be true… that is the internet after all.
The strangest believe in many fandoms I so often see is that the creators do harm to characters because they hate them. I mean… what?
That and Ellaria saying very much the same thing when the Dornish plot was introduced: that the people are with her and the Sand Snakes, because they want vengeance, and not with Doran. And it’s not just “a few men showing disgust”. It’s Doran’s guard showing disgust to their Prince and letting a murderous coup against him take place. I think their message is pretty clear.
FlyingMonkeySoup,
You don’t have to watch something you don’t enjoy.
Doesn’t mean they need to kill him personally.
He has royal blood and this blood can be used to resurrect him ?
I don’t really care that the Sand Snakes teleported or used jetpacks. I can handle a few inconsistencies that way. I am more upset about the fact that there is absolutely no nuance to their characters, and so they are just another set of psychopaths like Joffrey and Ramsay. If they hate weakness in their own family that much, why do they even care if Elia was killed? She wasn’t known for being strong. They basically did something that was just as bad as what the Mountain did in the first place.
I found Ellarias line of “You would have made a terrible adventurer, and Oberyn would have made a terrible ruler” good because it showed some minimal nuance and depth. But then it turned out to be just a part of the charade, and she is just a completely uninteresting one-dimensional character.
viki,
Well it’s a classic TV move. They couldn’t show the entire populace so they showed his guards instead.
Also Ellaria has said many times how the people don’t like Doran and how they love the Sand Snakes.
Didn’t Arya mention at some point about Syrio making her train with a blindfold? Can’t recall if it was books or show or I’ just misremembering.
EDIT – yes it’s a Ned POV chapter where he recalls finding Arya wandering the castle blindfolded because Syrio was teaching her to see with her ears, nose, and skin
Because Jamie was on a Martell ship (hence the gigantic Dorne sail on the ship, which the show went to great lengths to emphasize). What was he going to do, completely surrounded by Martell guards and soldiers? There was bumfuck all he could do about anything on the ship unless he wanted to get killed himself. I’m pretty sure that once Myrcella was dead, the guards immediately seized Jamie and Bronn and sent them to the ship’s hold until they reached King’s Landing, then sent Jamie off on that boat with Myrcella’s body. (I assume Bronn was on that boat as well, and they just didn’t bother showing Bronn for some reason, or maybe he’s still a prisoner on the Martell ship.)
I liked the episode; even the Dornish scenes. I thought the ending was a bit lackluster, seemed pretty obvious to me that Mel was using a glamour, and even if its not; was that really important enough to end the episode on? But that’s a real minor grip, overall I thought the episode was very good; particularly for a season premier, which are usually weaker episodes.
BTW, ‘After the Thrones’ is up on HBO GO and HBO NOW; I think it also airs on actual HBO some time tonight. It was good, they’ve basically kept the same dynamic from their podcast (although there were a couple moments where they seemed self-conscious about being on camera) and Mallory and Jason showed up about halfway through. Chris and Ryan were as irreverent as ever. They didn’t offer any criticism though, not sure if that’s because they loved all of it or if they feel pressure not to.
viki,
Why wouldn’t they kill him if they are going that way anyway?
So they can be sure he’s dead. It also adds to the entire idea of just how much they hated Doran.
I agree with you, instead of enjoying the greatness and originality of this show, people are just moaning like they were thinking they would make the show better. They cant even imagine how hard it must be to run this show. Dave and Dan have made it maybe the best show in the world and yet they still critizice them. And personally, I have no problem with the Dornish plot…
loco73,
Someone on another forum posted that the blood stain looked like a dragon, which is interesting because some people thought his blood stain at the end of season 5 looked like a wolf. I didn’t see the dragon shape myself, but will look for it when I rewatch.
That’s kind of the point of the uselessness of vengeance. That’s the point of pretty much everything we see in the show, when the inevitably bloody consequences take place. I’m sure the Blackfish and company will retaliate against the Freys with something as murderous as the Red Wedding. Would that be that stupid too? I mean, it’s a stupid petty move, yes, but is it stupid storytelling?
Connor,
I think he was just shocked at the amount of blood.
What happened in dorne is similar to what happened at wall with jon and mutineers …like thorne and olly ,ellaria and SS can’t see the bigger picture and blindly did what they thought righteous ..
I can’t believe people still ask for more Wall scenes …I think that was the only place where went twice and occupied the most duration in the episode. People should have understood by now that there are other characters and places as important as wall and their characters..
Lena heady was awesome ..same goes for Alfie and naltalie ..
I don’t know why we need to have the entire fleet burned in meereen though …because iam of the opinion whatever ships that maybe coming from greyjoys are not going to enough and she will be having fleets from volantis and qarth ….must wait and see how it goes …maybe they won’t go in detail how many ships grejoys will bring .
At this point I enjoy show as its own in regards to dialogue and scenes but figuring out what that means in regards to the books..I wish TWoW gets released this year so lots of people understand what’s actually in the books rather than stuck up with only theories and end up disappointed..
Does anyone else love that Oathkeeper was made from Sansa’s father’s sword? I thought about that as Brienne laid it at her feet. Symbolic, no? That scene was the best ever, and Sansa faltering a bit with the language, fucking brilliant and beautiful 🙂
Here’s a question though, if Thorne gave them until sundown, why is Mel tucking herself into bed…seems like the situation at hand is a little dire to be taking a nap. Probably missed something or was on crack watching the show*
*was not on crack
Luka Nieto,
That’s just the feeling I’ve been getting recently. The way they’ve shoddily handled certain characters and arcs makes me believe they’ve become almost like a nuisance and a chore to D & D, I’ve not been sensing a lot of enthusiasm in their writing, it’s almost like they can’t be bothered. Doran is such a fascinating and interesting character, so to see him treated with such a lack of respect has been extremely disheartening.
But at the end of the day it doesn’t matter because people will excuse their actions all because “oh I don’t care about Dorne so blah blah blah”.
It isn’t supposed to make complete sense, not all actions people make are done rationally or logically – people are emotional and things that are not based on facts, but more on feelings or perceived facts. Eye of the beholder. Yes Oberyn entered willingly, but if the Lannisters had dealt with the Mountain years ago (instead of lying and making excuses), then Oberyn wouldn’t have even been in that fight at all. I’m sure Ellaria heard about the old grievance for years and years, and his frustration became hers. When he is killed, and by the Mountain – it just added insult to injury. The details of how it happened are not important – the fact that it did and the injustice of it all – that is all the matters. Add a little crazy to the mix and there you go.
Daenerys has always been white-haired. It’s one of the key identifying features of Targaryens.
Here’s a screen shot of Daenerys with her brother Viserys (which took place before the funeral pyre that birthed the dragons, since Viserys died long before that pyre):
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/0/04/101DerWinternahtViserysDaenerys2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130601122306&path-prefix=de
Mihnea,
I don’t read the sullied recaps and comments so I don’t get spoilt, but I came in here doing a “Control+Find” so I can find your comment. I wanted to see what you thought about Dorne.
Thankfully, we agree.
I thought it was an awesome twist, and cant wait to see where this is going. 2 SS in Kings Landing = death by Frankenmountain. haha.
I care about Dorne. I wanted the Dornish plot to be kickstarted at last, which I expected last season and was dissapointed not so see. I thought this would happen through Doran (I do miss his great two speeches), but it will happen through Ellaria and company instead. Fine. The point is Dorne goes to war and their story becomes relevant to central characters at last.
Luka Nieto,
At this point they no longer care.
They want vengeance, they want war and Doran was a block in that plan.
So they removed him.
I myself am more suprised, because I did entertain the idea of Ellaria moving against Doran, but I never imagined that he was so hated by the people, even if Ellaria did say just as much in S5. Most likely a bit of book info managed to confuse me.
But all in all I love this idea of a coup and can’t wait to see more!
Will Ellaria try to rule Dorne with the army? Will Tyene do it, as she is Oberyn’s girls?
Some great posibilities where born thanks to this move and that is why I love it.
That’s my question too. I wonder what will happen exactly now 🙂
so a known liar says something and of course it must be true.
so a couple of his guards = all of them.. again… faulty logic
not saying that this is not what is intended for the audience to believe, just doesn’t pass the logic test for me.
viki,
Oh come on. Doran’s whole personal guard except for Areo stands by when Ellaria assassinates their prince, and we not only see their disgust but Ellaria remarks on it, and it’s too much of a leap for you to assume Trystane’s guard feels the same way? Whatever…
As for Ellaria’s claim that Dorne wants war, this has been repeatedly shown and said, both in the books and the show. Even Doran wants war in the books. That’s the big twist. So why can’t you believe the Dornishmen want war and despise Doran’s inaction, exactly, despite all evidence to the contrary? Have you read AFFC? Doran was even counseled against going to Sunspear because they feared the people would rise up against him for not doing anything about Oberyn. The show has shown the same thing, through the character of Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, and Oberyn before them.
I don’t see what’s so incredibly horrible from Dorne. Never bothered me, and the assassination of Doran and his son whas the only thing that actually surprised me in this episode. It was refreshing, and I welcome what this new hostile approach from Dorne will bring to the dinamics of the show.
Other than that, I loved Cersei’s scene with Jaime, and the first scene with Ghost howling was so haunting and sad. Brienne’s vow seemed a bit awkward to me though, for some reason.
Anyway, very excited about the season!
Green Chili,
This is awesome. Well done. We’ll probably see Sam & Gilly, as well, though. Or will we have to wait for ep. 3 for them?
It’s clear that Oberyn wouldn’t want this. It’s clear that Dorne will suffer because of a war. But decision don’t need to be rationale to be valid, strong emotions can also do that.
Hell most of the time people realise they do something wrong, but they just can’t control themselves.
In the peoples eyes Doran doing nothing is just as bad as what the Mountain did to Elia. Some may see it as justice, some may see it as a necessary move to have the war they want.
So his head wouldn’t be proof enough, how much better would that have been, instead of the clumsy boat scene – instead of the note of Marcella’s death arriving, it was Trystane’s head with a note that is it done. That would have really shown Doran how much they hate him… and it would also explain why they waited so long to kill him – they want to rub that fact in his face.
And dany scenes have given me hope that we will actually get dany planning something and getting herself out of this situation rather than drogon saving her again …I can’t wait for episode 4 …it looks like dany won’t be in next episode from the preview ..
And I am afraid Jon may not come back in next episode a like many of us thought
Puff the Magic bloodstain?
Suppose I should’ve known that when something happens differently than in the books, there will be a shitstorm :/
What did you think about Davos watching Jon’s blood for quite some time? I thought maybe Davos will tell Mell about it and she’ll do some magic stuff with it since it’s kings blood, right??
Good point. So the guards probably were not on it, but they likely let the Sand Snakes onboard anyway, since they’re “family.” Or maybe they weren’t aware of the plot until after they reached KL, and the Sand Snakes gave them a letter from Ellaria.
Either way, just a small scene, something, that shows how the Sand Snakes went from watching the ship sail away on dock to being on the same ship with Trystane would’ve helped clarify the scene somewhat.
But ultimately, even if I can handwave the continuity hiccups away, I agree with the general point … Doran & Aero Hath just feel like complete wastes of characters and story time. While I’m far from a book purist, I would’ve preferred to see a version of Doran’s “Blood & Fire” speech, and at least a revelation that Doran was slowly working to wage war against the Lannisters and was slowly putting things in motion. But ah well, this is where the show decided to go.
Luka Nieto,
I wish I possessed your patience. I am just disappointed and I feel sorry for Alexander Siddig, he’s a tremendous actor who deserved so much better than what he was given.
And look, I understand Dorne isn’t a popular story angle, but the whole point of an adaptation is D & D have the freedom to improve upon the material, and in my humble opinion I believe they failed. At this point I am just sighing a breath of relief over Arianne Martell avoiding the same treatment.
Here’s hoping D & D don’t feel the same way about Euron Grejoy. Please god don’t let them ruin him as well 🙁
JamesL,
I think Bran’s story needs more time for viewers to catch up on than the premier would have allowed. Next week we should get our Bran back.
viki,
Yes in TV that’s exactly what it means.
Doran’s personal guard abandoned him, we are supposed to take from this that most of Dorne did to…
Doesn’t every single man and women in Dorne abandoned him. It just means that the army and most likely the lords did.
I also think most of Dorne wants war, just as Ellaria say’s in S5.
So even if they may not outright hate Doran, they wouldn’t mind him dying if this means they can go to war.
Also Ellaria seying ”when was the last time you left this palace” and before in S5 ”you sit here watch the sky and do nothing” shows how out of touch Doran is with the people and the general mood in the streets.
So did Sean Bean, Addy, Ciaran Hinds, and so will Ian McShane, who will only appear in one episode. Great actors in small parts are one of the great things about this show for me.
So is someone getting Trystane’s body off that boat or what?
Areo Hotah collapsed because he got stabbed with a toothpick, while Jon got stabbed with like 4 large daggers before he fell lmao.
viki,
Because the Sand Snakes also need to be in KL.
The Bean and Addy comparisons don’t work. Bean was a lead in his season and Addy was supporting. They both had a fully-developed arc with many good and long scenes.
Flayed Potatoes,
She did stab him right in the spine.
Right, some people, not all. Some people want war. I’m sure many more regular smallfolk don’t (think the current refugee crisis)… which are who Doran was trying to protect. But, again this is a TV show and they made no attempt (or had time) to develop any of this…
Luka Nieto,
Sean Bean and Mark Addy were given terrific material to work with though. And they were easily the highlights of Season 1. Not sure I am seeing the correlation there.
viki,
Or the smallfolk who loved Oberyn might want war just as much.
Josh L.,
Agree with your point of view on the Dornish plot line. With two SS in KL and Ellaria talking of war, I’m sure that we aren’t done with Dorne entirely. IMO, the wrong Dornish characters were eliminated last night. I wish Siddig had stayed around and assumed the stance that Ellaria was taking.
I enjoyed the episode, particularly the scenes with Sansa, Theon, Pod and Brienne. It was beautifully evocative of earlier times and the four actors involved played the scene perfectly.
The reveal of “Old Mel” was well-done but not completely surprising since that speculation has been circulating for awhile. What a scene!
What was the purpose of Daario securing those ships for Dany only to have them burned before she can use them? Just to be sure…
Overall, Dorne still makes me crazy but I am thrilled that this show is back.
Anger and revenge rarely are rational. I have no issues with Ellaria and the Sand Snakes wanting revenge on the Lannisters. Remember, it isn’t just Oberyn’s death, it’s also Elia’s rape and death (plus the deaths of Elia’s infant children) at the hands of the Mountain years ago at the end of Robert’s Rebellion.
Yes, Oberyn could’ve gotten revenge if he hadn’t pranced around bellowing at the Mountain instead of simply killing him off. Yes, Oberyn’s death is on his own hands, as he willingly volunteered to be Tyrion’s champion in the trial by combat. That doesn’t matter to Ellaria and the Sand Snakes. As far as they’re concerned, the Lannisters brutally killed Oberyn (Ellaria’s lover, and the Sand Snakes’ father). It’s not rational. They never claimed to be rational.
True enough. Then I stick with actors such as Ciaran Hinds and McShane. There are a few others as well. Adewale last season, for example. They get great character actors for small roles, they always have.
Yeah but remember Sansa and Theon jumped from the WF battlements into the snowdrifts in episode 10, surely only a few hours would’ve passed between that and the scene with Ramsay.
Cant agree with this more…. I would expect there is lots of boat traffic between Sunspear and Kings Landing since there are mountains between them and everyone in Kings Landing seems to want Dornish wine……
I really liked the episode, including Dorne…. OK everyone tell me… If you wanted to kill Hotah… wouldn’t you try to stab him in the back unexpectedly… I mean REALLY.. you WANT to fight him… ah no… thought so.
The idea of Mel making someone else Jon never occurred to me… I always figured she would raise him from the dead… but now… oh what possibilities…. As for Dorne.. I think we know where Dany will land now… with a ruler who WILL go to fight for her.
mariamb,
Most likely for a cool scene with ships burning.
Making Dany’s decision even harder to stay in Meereen, because she could have left with the ships.
To show just how strong the Harpies are.
And of course;
Neither did the books. The Dornish smallfolk is portrayed as uniformly wanting vengeance for Oberyn. As for actual characters, only Ellaria is against it, in the books, basically.
Oberyn died because he was stupid. He had a prime opportunity to finish off the Mountain, but went on a monologue. It’s his fault and it was a trial by combat he volunteered for. I don’t see how the Lannisters are to blame here. Ellaria needs to go take a nap and clear her head.
freoduwebbe,
Well said.
Luka Nieto,
Yeah, Sunspear is basically in open revolt when Doran arrives.
And they all want 1 thing….. Vengeance for Oberyn.
That’s not entirely true. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again. Jaime’s scene with Tywin in Season 1 is a prime example of just how talented D & D can be when they’re on fire. The problem is we rarely see those sparks of light from them. I do wonder if the exhaustion of making this show has sapped up all of their creative juices. Things have been steadily declining since Season 4 🙁
Storyline-by-storyline:
Castle Black (A-): Jon’s resurrection is definitely being slow-rolled, then; next week looks even more packed than this, and Mel hasn’t even cottoned onto the idea of resurrecting him, so we’re probably looking at 603 or even 604 (the latter would fit into the show’s habit of making the fourth episode a mini-climax). Davos was cool. Thorne’s plan is as ill-thought-out as I imagined.
Dothraki Sea (A-): The new Dothraki characters were unexpectedly well-characterized in a fairly short span of time, and I like the look of this story in terms of Dany’s characterization. Though while I understand the show’s need to give exposition, Dany seemingly not knowing about the Dosh Khaleen is dumb; she’s been to Vaes Dothrak before and met the Dosh Khaleen, in Season 1.
Winterfell and environs (B+): Solid installment, with a decent fight scene and lovely production value on the atmosphere. I could have done without Sansa needing help with the oath, seeing as that’s supposed to be her specialty and the show barely ever lets her use her mastery of courtly courtesies for anything. All the same, Brienne’s joy is palpably conveyed.
King’s Landing (B): Jaime’s character arc is molasses-slow, but this was fine, on the whole. Good to check in with the Tyrells, who we haven’t seen since episode 507.
Meereen (B-): Tyrion and Varys stroll around a city full of highly skilled guerilla enemies with no bodyguards? Yeah, right, because they’re so unrecognizable.
Braavos (C+): It was there, I guess. Barely enough to comment on. Honestly, Maisie was saying her story this season felt split up, but thus far it doesn’t particularly feel like it; this is the sort of tiny segment more akin to something you’d see in Seasons 2-3.
Dorne (F-): I contemplated inventing an even lower “G” grade for this storyline. The plotting of this story is offensive to logic, and killing off the only decent actor in the Martell storyline is just the icing on the cake (by ‘decent actor’ I mean that Siddig was giving a decent performance; Varma and co. have talent, but their performances in these cartoonish parts belong in a B-movie).
Flayed Potatoes,
Agree 100%. Oberyn chose trial by combat and lost due to his own arrogance. Besides he was also the one who cheated during the combat and coated his weapon in poison.
Funny thing is that so many (the majority?) actually still Believes that Jon Snow will come back alive some how.
Dorne was a terrible, convoluted mess in the books. At least the show has shortened it and now we are set up for war.
Redxgod,
I totally forgot about the poison. Another good point!
Still trying to figure how Sansa and Theon survived that jump with nary a scratch, yet Myranda went splat a few minutes earlier. Also, where are the unsullied as ships are burning and team Varys/Tyrion are wandering around a hostile city alone. Sorry, I’m just a detail oriented sort.
Decent enough start, all the usual top notch technical elements, lot of ground to cover. Happy that Sansa may now have a chance to recover some family honor, Cersei has been brought low, for a brief time I’m sure, and the botched Dorne plot has been thinned out. 50 minutes is not enough,hope the rest isn’t so rushed.
#FreeMargaery #OccupyKingsLanding
I hope Melly isn’t going to take a nap while her new bff Davos is out there fighting for his life…
sj4iy,
Yup. They basically killed everything I disliked about that story in the books…
So I’m happy!!
One word: Gollumsandre.
Ravyn,
The dogs were only to capture Theon ans Sansa Ramsey needs them alive
The Wall: Good. Best of the episode by far. Nice to get confirmation of Mel’s age. Davos rocks. Thorne played it well.
Essos: Jorah / Daaaaaario. Exactly as expected, including the one-in-a-jillion chance of finding the ring in the grass, right at his feet when he happened to look down.
Essos II: I liked the Dany scene’s presentation. Completely in line with expectation content-wise.
Dorne: Holy awful. Even worse than I imagined. At least D&D are leaving no bones about it – Dorne is going to stab the King’s Landing in the back (without fAegon / Golden Company) later this season, while the Lannister army is off in the Riverlands later this season. It’s doubly depressing in that there is at least some hope that some likable characters come out of Dorne in the books. On TV, Doran didn’t last long enough to make an impression, and the remaining characters are almost as evil as Ramsay (and twice as annoying). Uggh.
Winterfell. Overly predictable and even more nonsense than I expected. Obviously, Brienne-GPS / Armor of Invisibility was going to happen (the show left no other outs), but did Ramsay really need to sit around and pout and get lectured while he sent precisely too few men to find his prize wife? What were the other few thousand soldiers doing? Why didn’t Ramsay’s six-or-so very-good-men signal with their horns the moment they found Sansa? The fight choreography was to predictable in my opinion. The oath part was acted and written well, though.
Meereen: Rather odd on a number of points. Why were Varys and Tyrion just ambling around unprotected? Why was the city so empty (a little I can understand, but that was too much). And why were the boats burned? Wouldn’t the Dany-haters want her to sail away? I guess we know where Vic (errr, Yara or Asha or whatever) is going.
King’ Landing: Both scenes were serviceable.
Braavos: Serviceable as well.
Overall, one of my least favorite episodes, but I was expecting this one to not be so good, so I am only mildly disappointed. Things should pick up from here.
Carlos,
Gendry lost his virginity to her.
Stannis had a hard on for her…
Oh god….
Well, considering that …
… it’s not that hard to see why people think Jon Snow will be resurrected.
Its funny how gorgeous Margaery looks after being chuck into the dungeons. There is definitely something about Natalie Dormer…..
Josh L.,
Mell also said she saw him in the flames fighting at Winterfell!
Redxgod,
That is true…
It really isn’t that hard to figure out. Myranda fell onto the brick floor and went splat. Sansa and Theon fell into a snowdrift, which cushioned the fall.
I hope Gendry and Old Hag Melly meet again <3
Mihnea,
Jon’s so gonna tap that too <3
Luka Nieto,
Well, the problem is that they did it against their own family. I didn’t really like that they killed Myrcella, but at least I can understand that from some kind of revenge point of view. Killing members of their own family for failing to exact revenge makes no sense at all. Trying to go behind their backs to exact revenge without their consent would make sense, but not this.
Oberyn (and probably Elia too) would have utterly hated the Sand Snakes and Ellaria for what they have subsequently done. And they should be smart enough to know that.
And we don’t even have to guess. We saw Myranda falling into the brick floor. We saw Sansa and Theon looking before throwing themselves, and there was a lot of snow.
Dorne is the weakest out of the all storylines. But main thing that I don’t understand is why Obara and Nymeria had to kill Trystane or how did they get there so quickly? Shame Alexander SIdding is no longer on the show because he was good. Interesting to see where they’ll go with them and if they wait on Daenerys or start without her. So we can see Cerseir and Ellaria. Sending Obara and Nymeria to KL to wreck havok.
I loved the Wall scene with Davos and Edd taking center stage. Mel reveal was plain and simply creepy but beautifully done. Theon/Sansa with Brienne and Pod, nice touch when Sansa acccepted Brienne to her service and she’ll most likely send her to lookout for Arya. Question if Sansa will get to Castle Black or not.
Dothraki scene were also fabulous. I loved the scenery, very good scene between Daenerys and Khal Moro. As soon as he realized that she’s widow of Khal Drogo, he threated her with respect as he follows the rules, old school style.
One question. In season 4 during bath and scene between Mel and Selyse she was without her necklace too and she never changed her appearance unlike in this episode. Is it really in the necklace and she wears some other jewelry during bath?
Ah. So he couldn’t get off the ship but he was painting the eye stones? What the actual fuck?
And where the hell was Bronn?
Flayed Potatoes,
Oh god…. He almost made it…
Oh god.. I was turned on by that scene….
Mihnea,
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Flayed Potatoes,
I need to take a bath….
Sean C.,
I don’t know that Dany didn’t know about the Dosh Khaleen, so much as she was hoping it wouldn’t come up. lol I’m pretty sure that the subject came up back in Season 1.
As for Sansa not remembering her lines exactly… A. this is no doubt the first time she’s done this and B. she has been through a bit much in the immediate past (and is currently soaking wet in a frigid environment, having just had snarling dogs in her face), so maybe the stress has some effect on her memory? It all seemed very realistic and understandable to me and this series has generally favored realism over technical perfection.
KG,
well, that is really funny. at first i thought it was even to obvious and literal, but it seems it is not “obvious” for everyone
The Freys’ betrayal of Robb was a really huge thing, not because the Freys didn’t have plenty of motive, but because it was such a breach of honor. Similarily, Tyrion will be shunned by all in Westeros for killing his own father. It is a really huge thing even if he was always treated badly. A few seasons later people just kill their own family willy-nilly and everybody around them just accept it. It destroys the momentousness of what was built up earlier. How am I even supposed to care if the Starks get revenge on the Freys now, when even killing your own family members is just something that is competely normal.
Mihnea,
Mel will get one ready for you. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Flayed Potatoes,
He knows nothing. It’s possible.
Exactly as quickly as Trystane and Jaime did.
Josh L.,
Ok, I can accept that. Can someone please rewatch the scene just before Dolorous Edd leaves to inform the Wildings. Is there movement in Jon’s left fingers?
Flayed Potatoes,
You are really not helping!!
Did anyone catch the preview to next episode where on “orders from the king” the KG are denying Cersei exit or entrance from somewhere? Is it possible she and Tommen end up at ends with each other? That would open up a reason for Jamie being the younger brother who kills her, and does so to save his last remaining child? I remember one scene from the trailer with Cersei and Tommen where I got the impression that she does not care so much for this child. I mean, she’s already hurt him once by imprisoning his wife and faking sincerity.
Hehehe…
Well… now that things have happened… or not… perspective the next day.
A lot of it was very well executed, if nothing else. I think a lot of fans are pissed/stressed about &*$%ing Jon Snow what’s going to happen and with him such. We still don’t know. Breathe everyone. A lot of this episode was already available in clips, so that was also therefore underwhelming. Other stuff DID happen… and it was mostly very good.
Dorne makes me sad… but that’s because Siddig was my man. Doran was my man. But actually… I’m OK. It was quite decently done, considering the time they allotted. They allotted way too little time for a subtle slow-burn story, that’s a big part of why Dorne doesn’t work on the show. Ellaria’s accent wasn’t silly this time. The snakes weren’t silly. Less one-dimensional feeling than the last season. The Sand Snakes are not their father’s daughter, they never were they are more like Ellaira’s children. OK, So now we must go with it.
Now that the HBO site explains what happened… even the the snake assassination wouldn’t have been silly with some minor set up. Trystane looking out a window to the dock where there are guards, clearly trapped in his room/ship. A sad wistful look, then a bit more time with his painting. Another ship arrives beside his, an ominous musical cue. That’s it. a few SECONDS. It’s the few seconds that were missing when Yara “ran away” from the hounds. Director issue? Lost footage? Misplaced budget? Oh well, oops.
So far… it’s nothing worse than Yara and the hounds. Reserving haughty judgement for later…
I really enjoyed that Episode!
Normally, the first episodes are giving viewers an overlook about the Situation, but here we just rushed into it.
So much cool Stuff here!
I first had problems with the Dorne Plot.
Stabbing your Prince and his Heir is not pretty cool, the Ship Scene was odd, everything was kinda …weird.
Why was Trystan still on that Ship?
Why were Nym and Obara there?
Why didnt Doran knew about Myrcellas dead?
I hated it first, but then I thought about what Ellaria said “Dorne will never be ruled by a weak men again”.
What if they switched the Dorne Part?
Maybe its not Doran whos planning to bring the Targaryen back, but Ellaria and the SandSakes?
What if they deliver Ships (I know, the Iron Fleet is still out there…) to Dany to come to set Sail to Westeros and land in Dorne?
Everything else would be kinda silly, because neither Ellaria nor one of the SandSnakes would make great Ruler in Dorne…
Mihnea,
Didn’t the two Night’s Watch members turn … the two who tried to kill Mormont … they were at Castle Black when they turned … or is it where they die (they were on the other side of the wall when they died) that’s more important than where they are when they turn? Either way, didn’t bother me.
That’s just about the only aspect of this story that actually makes sense, isolated to itself. The dumbasses known as Jaime and Trystane opted to sail all the way to King’s Landing and then send Doran a message about Myrcella’s murder, rather than stopping the boat when it was a handful of yards from the dock, which means that the Sand Snakes had the full length of Jaime and Trystane’s boat trip plus however long it took the letter to arrive to get to King’s Landing.
It’s a moment that doesn’t bother me in isolation; it’s understandable she’d be frazzled. In the wider context that I mentioned, that Sansa basically never gets to use what is meant to be one of her main tools in the show (“courtesy is a lady’s armour”, and all that; even at her lowest moments, like her wedding night with Tyrion, she remembers this stuff), so having it actually be called for for once only for her to fumble it just annoys me. Like, I have no problem with Sansa not being of much use in the chase scenes (Theon suggesting that she could make it to Castle Black on her own is farcical), but this is not counterbalanced by showing the things she’s supposed to be aces at.
I have to admit. After all the hype, this episode fell flat for me. Maybe it is because of all the clips we have already seen from this episode maybe it is because the best parts of the trailers were not in the episode. I am hoping that is all it is for me, the hype was to big. How did the Sand Snakes get to Kings Landing so quick? Why is Trystane still on the boat (I know it was mentioned in the article, but they need to say that shit in the show)? Why didn’t Cersei mention Trystane, where was Bronn? Seriously, no Bran? I am sorry the writing of this episode was quite crappy. Trying to captivate the watcher with shock kills and tears. The writing at the wall was good. Liam Cunningham is such a good actor! Never thought they would bring the glamour into the show. You think they will actually use the word glamour in the show? Seriously Ramsay didn’t go after Theon and Sansa himself? Roose is a utter dick to Ramsay, even with Ramsay being a crapbag. Roose is digging his own grave. Yes, the highlight was the music with Sansa and Theon. Theon comforting Sansa. Two things I noticed from the fight. Brienne and Pod’s training is paying off for Pod, not bad Pod on horse and on foot. Second thing, what happened to the dogs once the fight ensued? They seriously run off? Not the best hounds that Ramsay said they were. One note for Arya she is tough as NAILS! Taking hit after hit! Good stuff, always love an Arya scene. Tyrion is funny as ever talking to Varys. Dany was pretty tough talking to the new Khal, actually impressed with the spine she shown. I read so many complaints about Jorah finding the ring. That scene was probably the best done that explained the viewers what was happening without actually saying it. They confirmed they were tracking burnt animal bones for drogon. Once they found a large pile Jorah was clearly looking and tracking, they found the ground pounded by a hoard with the center clearly not trampled, I don’t mind Jorah finding the ring. It makes sense and is def. not bad, Jorah knows how to track. So, the Sand Snakes are in KL,
Obara and Nym are kinslayers now, they are doomed! I like the woman who plays Ellaria. However, her acting as a bad guy is too cheesy. It just is, Areo dying with one knife to the back, assume it is heavily poisoned. You knew Dorne was gonna suck when they don’t even call the city The Water Gardens or Sunspear in opening credits. No other city they stop at in the opening credits is called by it’s region. They don’t say Slaver’s Bay above Meereen, it says Meereen. it says Winterfell not the North, It says Kings Landing not the Crownlands. Just saying dead give away that the Dorne plot line was gonna suck, they didn’t even name it right. I truly truly truly hope Nym and Obara die quickly. Close this damn Dorne storyline now.
One last note, yes Jon Snow is dead. We all agreed he was dead. That is not what we are waiting on. The question we want answered is will he be resurrected? The show didn’t pass enough time or dive that deep to answer that question. I still feel that he will, but now under the impression it will take some time.
jennyofoldstones,
Yes, They shoud have cut Cersei and Arya for Jon Connington, Aegon and Quentyn Martel! LOL
Darkrobin,
My understanding of that scene.
Those NW men died beyond the Wall and their bodies where brought to CB.
I think they where already turned but waited until they where inside the castle to kill Mormont.
Hara,
Isn’t it only people who die north of the wall who turn?
Ygritte,
Did Uncle Kevin not come back to serve as hand when Cirsei was held in prison?
Mihnea,
Ben,
No. I refuse to believe this.
Someone suggested it may be down not to the necklace but faith; with her faith in serious question now maybe that is not enough to hold the glamour.
That’s a cop-out to my point. I enjoy the show, but this Dorne stuff is some elementary school level writing that makes so little sense that it totally ruins the flow of the episode. If this was the only thing they could come up with, the absolute least logical reason for regicide I have ever heard, than they deserve to be called out for it. They want to diverge from the books. Fine by me, I have enjoyed a lot of their non-book moments. Thoroughly enjoyed Arya with Tywin for example. At least do a good job of it. But this Dorne plot doesn’t make sense. It makes ZERO sense. It makes so little sense that you couldn’t muster a good counter argument for me other than “don’t watch the show,”
Don’t forget to include “No. Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night.”
Ser Not Appearing in this Series,
Or!
What if Selyse saw her true form?!?….just a random tin foil thought..
The only thing that could have made the Dorne scenes better for me is if an unnamed woman had come running into the scene with her arms laden with shopping bags, apologizing to “Dahhhdy” for spending so much gold again without looking at him, then sees his body, looks shocked, and gets knifed.
Sigh. If only the book editors had cut off Dorne so neatly….
I agree, this was not a great premier. The writing is off, they aren’t explaining things to the viewer they way they did before. I am not saying I need my hand held as I am a book reader and understand the show without them saying stuff. But in the eyes of viewers, it just seemed like the majority of the characters in this first episode didn’t make any logical choices.
I’ve always believed the theory that Mel is the daughter of Bloodraven and Sheira Seastar. That would put her at about 400 years old, so I’m happy to see this is the same age that Carice Van Houten estimates her character to be.
(see interview here: http://www.vox.com/2016/4/24/11495384/game-of-thrones-red-woman-recap-melisandre-old)
Oy vey here we go…
Before my Dorne rant, I’ll say I thouroughly enjoyed the premiere and am looking forward to next week!
I completely disagree about Dorne. Of course Oberyn would disapprove of Ellaria’s actions, but that doesn’t matter anymore. Ellaria is hot headed and consumed with revenge. The character isn’t supposed to act rationally or loyally. And ending S5 with breaking her word to Doran? Her actions this episode made sense, even if you hate what happened.
Furthermore, I don’t see why the audience needs a lengthy explanation for why Trystane stayed on the ship. He was sailing towards KL and a grieving Cersei. The Lannisters and the Martells aren’t exactly best buds.
I will concede it was disappointing to see Areo taken down without more of a fight, but then again, it was disappointing to see Robb Stark taken down at a wedding. This has always been the M.O. of Thrones.
Regarding Doran: Perhaps there’s a chance that years of fan speculating was incorrect and Doran isn’t some matermind. Regardless, this is what happens in the show. The books aren’t out. We can get over our incorrect expectations and deal with it.
ghost of winterfell,
Based on Tormunds reaction to seeing “someone” show up on the battlefield at Winterfell… I’m unfortunately thinking we won’t see a rezzed Jon until ep 8/9
Connor,
Because the blood stain looked like dragon wings…to me at least.
FlyingMonkeySoup,
I and others did made quite a lot of comments on why we thought it was good.
Just because you didn’t like it, doesn’t mean others don’t.
I thought it was the highlight of the episode, perhaps if I wasn’t spoiled on Mel that would have been, but as it stands this was for me.
I don’t want them to diverge from the books…..I want them to burn the books and throw the ashes in the ocean….
Just because I didn’t like the books doesn’t mean you ”enjoyed bad writing” it just means that you have different tastes then me. Same applies here in reverse.
I loved those Dorne scenes, hope we get more, and it fills me with confidence in the season.
My argument still stands, it isn’t a cop-out. If you no linger enjoy something then stop watching, don’t torture yourself..
Wimsey,
The women with ”big dark nipples”?
In truth, Doran would be viewed as a weak ruler who put up with too many insults to his family. People would not care that Oberyn was killed in a fair fight: and, in truth, given good old fashioned Grimmsian effects, that would not be the story that they would hear. And Doran never did anything about his sister’s death, either.
I think that they are setting it up so that Dorne is going to come down firmly on Daeny’s side now. We might also be seeing that Dorne does things differently: one of Oberyn’s bastard daughters will probably take over. And I think that we’ll get Vengeance, Fire and Blood then. However, at this point, it’s too late to have Doran utter those words: his ineffectual nature make them unbelievable.
Interestingly, this modification is in keeping with the “populist” theme that the show has injected into the plotlines for some of the secondary characters.
It’s Dorne, and things are done differently in Dorne?
But yeah, Ellaria and the Sand Snakes should be completely shunned as kinslayers. Unless, I suppose, Doran was so utterly despised by the people of Dorne that they will cheerfully look the other way at kinslaying as long as they get their much-anticipated war with the Lannisters.
On the other hand, the Mad King wasn’t exactly beloved either, and yet Jamie is universally despised for slaying him. So I dunno. You do raise a good point.
Did Rhonda Weiss have big dark nipples? Wait: I’m confusing stereotypes again, aren’t I….
The showrunners realized that Dorne is shit in the books. Quentyn died, Arianne and the Griffs is cutted, because they’ll die too. (Arianne is on a way for them, and Aegon is jut a Blackfyre) Doran is not a leader for a war, because he’s a cripple. So they need a new leader. Someone will kill him in the books as well. And they’ll go to war, to King’s Landing.
Dorne is a travesty, we’ve seen that most big houses have to tread carefully with their vassal families, sometimes with members of the same vassal family each time they want to organize something new.
But here we have a coup on the most independant region of them all and 3 individuals, who’ve been openly opposed to the ruling family (even if they are a part of it) for some time, are enough to execute it with no time (the boat hasn’t come back yet), no preparation, no allies and no respect whatsoever for what the guy they are supposed to avenge would have wanted.
Meaning that anyone loyal to Doran would never have accepted to participate and anyone loyal to Oberyn either, i really don’t see how anyone trusted enough to be part of the “royal guard” could be in on it.
As it is, Dorne has been presented like a chaotic, disorganized, honorless country, i can’t even begin to comprehend how the show wants us to believe that they were the only one able to resist the Targ dragon invasion, when far more competent people (every other family we have seen on the show) couldn’t.
Eddard would disapprove the actions of most of his off spring.
It happens.
It’s a lot simpler than that. They said it themselves, to Doran. “Your son is weak. You are weak. Dorne will never again be ruled by a weakling”.
They aren’t doing it for vengeance. All of this was done as set up for the coup to remove House Martell and to take control of Dorne. They don’t care what “Oberyn would have wanted” anymore. Ellaria sees herself and Oberyns daughters as Nymeria come again.
Nymeria agreed to a marraige alliance with House Martell but ultimately she ruled for decades after his death and was the true monarch. And like Nymeria they have the people’s loyalty, not the “weakling” martell men.
Are you talking about the two rangers who went out with Benjen Stark and their dead bodies were sent back to Castle Black with the horses? Yeah, they turned in Castle Black. Like you, I assume it depends on where they died, or where the process started.
Except that this was not some sort of “glamour.” Instead, this seems to be some “Dorian Gray” magic, where Melissandre is young when she wears the red stone, and old when she is not. She did not just look ancient: she was ancient, walking very feebley and stooped. You might magically photoshop youth on top of an old body, but you cannot magically photoshop youthfullness.
At any rate, it seems that a combination of ideas was right. No, she was not kept eternally young automatically: she is young only when she wears the stone. No, she was not glamoured: the change is a genuine physical alteration, not an illusion. So, it is some new magic to which we have not been introduced. But that’s fine: that was a gun-hanging or character development scene, not a key moment scene.
(That written, I think that she was wearing it in the bath: I seem to remember it glowing red.)
FlyingMonkeySoup,
It makes perfect sense. People of Dorne hate Doran, SS and Ellaria hate him. They want to take charge of Dorne and start the war. Their motivation is similar to Thorne’s with Jon.
And yes, they are kin. But Lysa was Sansa’s aunt, and Sansa was accomplice in her murder.
They had turned before then: Sam and others noted when they were brought in that they had not decomposed normally. They were dormant: but we’ve seen elsewhere that wights can be dormant.
Wimsey,
Damn you are right.
This is much more then a simple glamour.
loco73,
You realize that your whole post consists essentially of what you accuse others of doing ?
Nothing constructive in there, just dissing on a whole category of people.
Nonsense.
Wimsey,
They also had blue eyes.
They turned before.
Why would they stop the boat and get back to the Martells? If you think for a second it’s not even an option.
* Doran might kill them easily to cover things up. Ups the ship just sank with Jaimie and Marcelly aboard. Badluck, realy. Or at least he might take them captive to keep the peace with KL. There is no way letting Jaimie go after what happend, since Doran will know that Cersai will go on a rampage even if he executes the Sandsnakes and Elleria
* At the very least they will lose their own potential captive. The heir of Dorne. Doran would not let him go to KL to expose his son to the queen for her revenge fantasies. With Trystan they would have at least something to bargain against the Ss and Elleria.
The only logical option for Jamie is “full sail”. He has nothing to gain in Dorne except for a poisened spear or a couple of handcuffs.
El Germán,
Well they can’t ignore Dorne. Nym and Obara are in Kings Landing. Those two characters may ruin the Kings Landing storyline.
Hodor Targaryen,
I agree.
It seems I’m one of the few people that see the Dornish scenes in this episode as an improvement from last year. Obviously Doran and Areo are way better characters, but they would prob just do nothing or make excuses and apologies, whereas if Cersei wants war w Dorne, these ladies will oblige. I loved Oberyn and he seemed like a kind sort of man. But he did like stabbing strangers just because they were Lannisters. Do we really know how he felt about his brother’s inaction? Moreover, the coup was shocking and gave us a better idea of what’s going on in Dorne. Apparently the ppl don’t support Doran, as his men refused to protect him. And apparently Dornish really do like to fight, as the stereotype goes, because they don’t support their Prince.
I think our disappointment w the Sand Snakes (besides the whip and the pussy line) comes from how underdeveloped they are. The writers took no time to let us get to know them and their context-which led to foolishly rushed intros and bad lines. And while Ellaria said they had the support of the people, it seemed that they were going rogue.
I hate the shit out of Dorne. But I’m holding out hope that it can improve. Maybe it will at least be interesting.
Deesensfan,
Imagine Ned seeing Arya turn into a cold blooded killer.
No matter how cool that scene was, Ned would have been heart broken that his little girl became this.
Ben,
Then what’s the point of filming the Tower of Joy in the first place? That’s a scene from the books that can easily be cut (especially since it’s from the *first* novel). So why even include it unless it have some sort of significance to the story?
And the only way it has any sort of significance to the story is because it reveals the origins of you-know-who. So why even bother showing that if the character is gone for good?
plop_plop,
Episode 2/3: Brienne will break her oath to Sansa when Sansa and Mel form an alliance to resurrect Jon. Brienne will not put up with any to do with the ‘red woman’
I would think there are a dozen other houses in Dorne that will try to either take advantage of the vacuum by fighting for control of Sunspear, or at least forcibly discourage the idea that bloodlines can be wiped out by a few angry commoners. Ellaria might be able to sneak a few assassins into King’s Landing, but the extinction of the Martell line would divert inward all Dornish armies capable of war for the next few generations. At least until the White Walkers make it that far south…
mau,
Sansa had absolutely nothing to do with Lysa’s murder. Not telling the small council of the Vale who killed your Aunt does not make you a Kinslayer. Sansa is not doomed because she was around when Lysa died.
In the eyes of which viewers? Moreover, why would viewers be expecting characters to make logical choices when so many of their choices are driven by passion at this point? Humans are not logical creatures for the most part.
That stated, it does seem that there were tactics behind the passion. Thorne clearly had a plan regarding how to present Jon’s assassination: and it worked. Ellaria clearly had a plan for how to overthrow Doran: and it worked.
So, I doubt that most viewers had any problems following this.
Sean C.,
dany does know about dosh khalleen …
I believe that scene is meant to be how her life will end and how that is something she don’t want to happen..
Since all like to nitpick and criticize …its been agreed that north is very well done in the episode …but does anyone asked when and how Mel saw Jon fighting in winteefell …she never said anything about that last season to Jon or stannis..
It’s not a question of Jaime stopping the boat. It’s a Dornish ship commanded by Trystane; Jaime and Bronn are the only Lannister men on it. Why would Trystane not go back immediately to warn his father?
Mihnea,
Precisely. Or Robb breaking his oath.
The scene was not in the first novel. Ned has some distorted dreams relating to it, and memories of one portion. If we had seen what they are about to show, then certain fan debates that have raged for nearly 2 decades would never have started.
The Dothraki version of Python’s Spanish Inquisition sketch was the boss!
Grayven Reyne,
Seeing as the soldiers where on Ellarias side, I think it’s fair to assume, until further info is provided, that the lords are on it to.
There are 2 outcomes in my opinion. She will try to rule herself or put Tyene.
Or, in my opinion the more likely outcome, there will be a sorts of millitary goverment.
Hodor Targaryen,
That was what bothered me, too. Bantering over who got to kill their own cousin was Joffrey-level sadistic – how are these Oberyn’s children?
The rest of the episode was good. It seems they’re saving the big guns for episode 2, though.
Stargaryen,
What she did is a definition of an accomplice.
The point is, you don’t need to care about your kin. You can kill them if you want. Happens all the time in real life.
Nikita,
Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar lived roughly a hundred years before the events of GoT. So she would be in her early hundreds or even younger.
Tim of House Deddings,
What about the two Night’s Watch members who were found on ranging and brought back to Castle Black? They were at Castle Black when they turned.
Redxgod,
I love how cool the bloodriders where with the Khal.
It fits perfectly with what we know of them, that they are brothers with the Khal, that they die for him….and in some special cases they even share the Khals wifes.
You remember incorrectly. She quite clearly did not have it on at any point in that episode, which was noted at the time, since the Mel glamour theory is a longstanding one.
mau,
True.
Most victims are killed by someone they know or even family.
El Germán,
I just thought Thorne submitted to Jon’s request because of their sheer numbers. There were so many Wildings, many more than NW, that to deny them entrance peacefully, with an able commander leading them like Jon Snow, Thorne knew the NW would get wiped out. So he allowed them to come through. He did it with great reluctance, and I had a very strong feeling when he did it, that we had not heard the last from Thorne on the matter of Jon & the Wildings. So Thorne waited until the Wildings had passed thru and then he struck Jon down.
? How could he go back “immediately” to warn his father? Why would he? Ravens and horsemen travel far faster than do boats. Moreover, Trystane is a noblemen: he sends news, he does not deliver it. For all we know, he was the one who sent word to Doran. This is not a world in which it is easy to send news quickly, after all, but he could have had a courier go from some point along the way, or at Kings Landing. (Ravens seem less probable: he could not trust Pycelle, and it’s not like they have street corner Raven Express in this world.)
Moreover, Trystane was sent there by his father to serve on the Small Council, which is very important in the grand scheme of things. Staying on the ship until he knows what his reception would be like in Kings Landing might seem the prudent course of action: and Trystane would have been well-trained in prudence and in putting politics in front of personal feelings.
I do find it amusing that we were worried about how Cersei would treat him!
Grayven Reyne,
This is not a show about Dorne. They are unimportant storyline, and they will keep politics of Dorne very simple.
People hate Doran. People want war. SS want war. People like them. People want them to rule in Dorne
They are women and bastards. But Dorne won’t care. That will show how Dorne is liberal.
.The end.
TheSnarkAtWinterfell,
It has never made sense, from the beginning. It could have made an interesting back story, and connection with Kings Landing. But it’s just of tough girls trying to be all bad. Even though I hate this storyline, I do look forward to the dragons getting a meal of these wannabebadasses
Ben,
the biggest battle the show has ever done for a vision?
mau,
S4
”we don’t despise bastards in Dorne”
Nope she wasn’t wearing it in the bath
(mildly not safe for work)
http://dorkshelf.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads//2014/05/Game-of-Thrones-Season-4-Episode-7-Melisandre.jpg
The best parts of this episode were definitely at the wall and the Theon/Sansa scenes. I really liked how Theon finally showed some courage again and safed Pod and the fact that Sansa is heading to the wall next, sadly just to see her half-brother dead (but hey, thats the closest we ever got to a Stark reunion until now). Also i am now even more expecting a Jon Snow resurrection, i mean there has to be another reason why they showed Mel’s magic besides her reveal as the (probably) several hundreds of years old woman.
I am pretty excited to see how Ramsays raid at the wall will turn out.
Have I missed something? What about Quentyn Martell? Or does he only exist in the books?
Sean C.,
But she used used some bottles in that scene in S4. And they focused on
bottles in this episode.
By stopping the boat, which was still within sight of the dock when Myrcella died. It would have taken ten minutes, tops.
The Dorne debacle was such a sad, unpleasant surprise.
So you want to keep Dorne’s story alive but without Doran… then why not introduce Arianne for a smidge of authenticity?
mau,
Okay, what I said didn’t make sense. My point I was trying to get at was a lot of stuff in this episode didn’t make sense based of previous seasons and what we have come to expect. Characters are making choices that don’t make sense, they are making decisions that characters wouldn’t make 3 seasons ago. Maybe that is the story progressing maybe not. But personally and just my opinion it feels like everything was written in a manner that couldn’t be guessed by the viewer. it is like DD sat around and said “well we have to kill Trystane. Well the viewers think it will be Bronn, Jamie, or the Mountain that will do it. So let’s make it someone that the viewers wouldn’t expect just for that shock value even if it doesn’t make sense” Look I think we can all agree it would have been SO MUCH better if Bronn or the Mountain did it. Now everyone is curious, how did the Sand Snakes get there so quick instead of saying man can you believe how they killed Trystane. heck some of the comments I have read people thought Trystane was back in Dorne. Just very shotty writing in my opinion. Disagree with me all you want. This episode had good moments. The wall was done well, introduction to blind arya was good. Brienne and Sansa was good. Like I said before, I think I had to much hype for the premier.
How do I say this without coming off self righteous…..
Right, I can’t. So.
The collective nitpicking of this show to death is the most annoying thing abut being a part of the more devoted online fandom. We are all allowed our opinions, but seven hells, the worst episode of GoT is still better than anything else on tv. So you didn’t love Dorne. That’s cool, it wasn’t my favorite either, and you’re free to express that. But the apparent relish some take in layering on the ad hominem attacks towards the showrunners, writers or, even more unsettling, people who say they liked what you did not. You are not the thought police. You are not a special flower who has perfect taste, you’re just poisoning the well. Maybe try instead to promote what you love instead of just bashing what you hate in the show.
For those of you discouraged by the negativity in these comments, check out Oz’ unsullied post for a much less negative tone in comments.
/Housekeeping
Brienne was amazing, Pod was amazing. I loved when he helped her with the words. Nicely done, Pod. Go Theon, redeem thyself!
Ramsay is “sad” about Myranda, still feeds her to dogs. Charmer.
Dorne, umm. It was beautifully shot. At first I was confused why the guards weren’t doing anything, until it showed the guards looking at Doran with disgust and Ellaria explains they hate him, too. What a shit way to die. And yes, it did confuse me that they didn’t mention Myrcella before Trystane became a human narwhal. But, I loved 95% of the rest of the show, so I’m going to focus on what I liked! (See what I did there?)
Cersei and Jaime, heartbreaking. I’m surprised she spoke about the prophecy.
Castle Black has been my favorite storyline since Jon got back from his wildling recon mission, and Davos being there and being so very Davos, makes it that much more enjoyable. I had to turn away when they were lifting his limp body out of the bloody snow, it was so morbid. Ghost’s howling was also a heart punch. Also, Edd’s face.
Love seeing Tyrion being a boss ass comptroller of Mereen.
Someone else above pointed out that Tyrion and varys were unguarded walking around Mereen and I concur- bring an unsullied along after what happened to Barristan. Also, bye fleet!
I had forgotten that we’ve been told Mel is older than she appears, but now conveniently burned in my retinas so I have that going for me.
GreatjaneUmber,
You obviously missed many things. 😀
How about no ? (with Dr. Evil’s voice)
Bloodraven is “only” (again Dr. Evil’s voice) like 150 years old, it is known.
I read the theory though that Mel is 400 years old and was the survivor of the Doom of Valyria, and she is Azor Ahai borned among smoke and salt blablabla and the dragon with three heads is her fire sword. That last is my thought
Mihnea,
Oh God… Indeed
I didn’t mind the Dorne scene. For once.
It actually shocked me, since I had expected the Dorne storyline this season to be about bringing Ellaria and the Sand Snakes to justice rather than about a full-on war with the Lannisters.
Some of the writing and acting is still dodgy, but it did at least surprise me so I guess it did its job.
I don’t see any real problem with how Obara and Nymeria got to King’s Landing either.
So they jumped on a boat after Jaime/Myrcella/Trystane left Dorne and arrived at King’s Landing shortly after them. Hardly rocket science.
mau,
I remember in the books that the glamour on Mance was enhanced by Rattleshirt’s armor.
Perhaps the glamour isn’t in the necklace, but that only helps her enhance it and making it more real..
As Wimsey said, there is a lot more to this then a simple glamour. She was a lot weaker after she changed, much more frail.
This was an awful episode. Just admit it. Non-sequiturs on top of deus ex machinas on top of execrable filler.
1. Jon is back to locking up Ghost in his cage? That was an order from Acting LC Thorne, which Jon obviously rescinded since Ghost was wandering around CB freely while Jon was at Hardhome.
2. The only people in Castle Black who notice a wolf howling its butt off in the middle of the night are Jon’s steadfast allies?
3. The NW brothers are gathering in the mess hall in the middle of the night?
4. Melisandre goes to the Lord Commander’s office in the middle of the night, and asks for Davos, despite not knowing that Jon is dead?
5. Ghost stopped howling once they moved Jon’s body. I guess he just didn’t like how it was positioned? He also wasn’t making a peep while they were stabbing Jon to death despite being right across from the murder scene!
6. There’s no reason to believe Davos knows about Rh’llor resurrection capabilities. He was presumably talking about Mel’s smokebaby powers, but that process takes time and requires a sperm donor (possibly with royal blood). Davos must be planning to take one for the team since he’s the only non-celibate there, but I don’t see how they have the time, how they get Melisandre back in that room, or whether a smokebaby is suitable for fighting 40 men.
7. Melisandre is going to bed again at the end, which would imply it’s night again and Alliser’s offer has expired.
… and it goes on like that for the rest of the episode. What a cluster.
Ser Not Appearing in this Series,
Interesting that she wasn’t wearing it there. Maybe the hot water kept her that way, maybe a ring?
As for why Trystane was still on the boat. Maybe Jaime thought that was safer than bringing him to shore to face Cersei’s wrath.
My initial thought on the whole Mel/Jon Snow resurrection is that Mel will glamour herself into a dead or possibly alive Jon Snow while Davos takes real Jon’s body away…no clue as to why or how this would make sense he just does it, possibly Mel tells him Jon can be resurrected by Thoros, or possibly Mel glamours into Jon and stays that way for the duration…thus Jon Snow is really “dead”.
Stargaryen,
Can you give me some examples, except SS.
I don’t care how SS get there. There are many explanations. I’m not interested in travelogues. That’s why I don’t like the last two books.
I don’t think that is out of character for them to kill him, because they are not developed characters. Is there anything that they’ve done or said in S5 that make you think that they are not capable of something like this?
They never showed any love for Trystane or Doran in the show.
Ygritte,
I tried to clean up my reply comment since it was showing everything as quotes but when I clicked it said I don’t have permission to edit. ?
Greg du Pille,
I don’t recall-did she really not have the necklace on?
I really liked the episode, not disappointed at all. Some bits more than others but I surely can’t be the only person whose interest levels vary widely for different aspects of the story? If they only had the bits I really want to see it would be a different show altogether.
LOVED Sansa, Theon, Brienne and Pod together. Thought I was just being hormonal but lots of people apparently found themselves a bit tearful at the oath scene. I’ve been reading comments on Reddit too and people have suggested that if we saw our ‘heroes’ killing the dogs it would ruin our warm fuzzy feeling. Also, the cost and practicality of using stunt dogs for a fight scene count against it so them conveniently vanishing (presumably running off? they are tracker dogs not the rip you apart ones) won out.
I was completely indifferent to Dorne in S5 but this has actually made it, to me, potentially a lot more interesting (starting from a baseline of don’t care what happens so I’m waiting to see how it pans out). Don’t remember anyone suggesting a coup, the people who died are all the ones we thought wouldn’t; not yet anyway. Sounds like it’s been a disappointment for book readers but in the showonlyverse it makes sense based on what little we’ve seen of the characters and their motivations. Areo may have been an awesome fighter in the books but not everyone can go down in a blaze of glory taking everyone else with them. It doesn’t work like that in real life either and the realism is what so many of us love about the show. If a girl half his size wants to kill him, something sneaky like being stabbed in the back is the sensible way to do it. Attacking someone like that from the front is suicidal. The sand snakes do seem a bit comical, but some people find Ramsay too cartoon villain like.
Davos staring at the blood I thought was just him thinking woah no way he can survive loosing so much, he must be dead (if only he’d read all the interviews telling us that) and perhaps wondering if Mel could do something?
Sou,
Yay you got to see it! 😀
Dragonmcmx,
Love this too, although Davos isn’t much of a swearer is he? Having said that the show has always surprised my with the general lack of swearing. Most of us, in those situations, would be effing and blinding the whole way through!
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Exactly. It wasn’t the scene itself that I liked. Although I liked that to.
It’s the suprise that I love, I didn’t see that coming.
It’s the promise of war with the Lannisters that I love. Now if they ignore this and turn Dorne again into a snooze-fest, I will criticize them for it.
But the sole promise of action in Dorne, at freakin last, really made me excited!
Also agree on the boat debacle.
First things first, Dolorous Edd is officially my favorite supporting character. He was always right there on the cusp, but the intensity he added to the goings on at The Wall in this ep. was part of what made the Castle Black sequences complete, and, by far the best part of the episode.
In a strange way, the way the episode ended completely changed the way I view Melisandre. Very well written, performed and produced scene.
The rest of the episode…pretty good:
Everything in The North felt like it had just the right pace for the season opener.
Braavos, as expected, slow build, one scene, but very meaningful and did just enough.
On the road with Dany, also well done, as was the Daario-Jorah sequence.
The rest…maybe the KL and Myreen scenes would have been better if they were longer, but sadly, time that would have been better spent putting some depth into those sequences was sacrificed for the sake of the dumpster fire the Dorne story arc is.
I give it 3 out of 5 Starks.
well, you blamed “dumbass” Jaimie for not returning. But you are right about Trystane, I just rewatched the scene. It looks like Trystane and Jamie/Marcella took the same ship. The whole story doesn’t make sense like all the rest of the Dorne plot.
Chris,
So funny because I thought the same exact thing!! Poof, gone.
Maybe this is me being optimistic but does anyone else think that this would be a good time to introduce Arriane Martell? Especially considering Ellaria’s comments about Dorne never being ruled by week men again.
That was a really solid episode. the opening scene with little to no music with Jon’s body lying in the snow lifeless and the sound of the cold wind with Ghost howling in the background, really good directing. The people of Dorne want war and the only thing standing in their way was a passive sickly old man. Edd and Davos really carried their own, now to deal with Thorne and his sycophants. The best scene was Brienne and Pod scaring the tracking dogs away, taking out the Bolton henchmen, finally found a Stark!! Tyrion and Varys need more scenes damn it. poor Jorah has death written all over his fate this season. Well Dany was a Khal’s wife but she wasn’t educated on the fact that widows have to serve the rest of their days as shrine caretakers of some sort. Arya just got demoted from being a clam salesman to a blind beggar who gets harassed occasionally by her supervisor whenever she feels like it. The Mel reveal at the end was the highlight of the episode for me, turns out she is ancient but good god woman put those sagging pair of dried avocados away.
Because he and Trystane are allies and there’s no indication Jaime wanted to return. But if push came to shove, it’s Trystane’s boat.
Hexonx,
It really is not. They have already explained above how some ships are faster than others and you can catch up to another ship. They followed him to KL and killed him. Why does everyone want to criticize the time it takes to move about the map?
Really the only hole I saw was the dogs. And it is not with bitching about. Not to me.
I thought it was a pretty solid episode (ok there were a lot of storylines) but this was needed after the cliffhangers at the end of Season 5.
I probably would have put the Margaery scene in episode 2, but then she hadn’t been seen since “The Gift” so I guess I understand that. She certainly looked like although she was suffering she was coping a lot better in prison than Cersei did.
I was genuinely surprised by the Dorne scene which was a nice change as I have read the books and am a bit of a sucker for filming spoilers (though I didn’t watch or read about any pre released clips). I don’t really get how Jaime didn’t take Trystane with him into KL though. I am gonna guess and say the SS will lie to the Lannisters and say that Doran murdered Myrcella to get into the capitol.
For me the best scene in the ep had to be the Brienne/Sansa scene (excluding the vanishing dogs!) I felt a bit emotional at the vows scene and the nice nod back to Catelyn. Brienne was awesome as per and Sophie’s acting has come on so far since Season 1, she did brilliantly.
Felt the Meereen, Dany, Jorah/Daario, Arya, Ramsay, scenes were more to start to introduce their moves this season and were mostly as expected. Not overly bothered about the guys finding the ring as there was big marks where the horses had been so it was more obvious.
KL scene was solid as usual. Suprised about the valonqar mention and Lena’s acting (as mostly always) was fantastic. I genuinely feel sorry for Cersei despite how awful she can be.
Liked all the Castle Black stuff. It has never been my favourite storyline but I feel like it will be really great this year. It’s nice to see Davos come into his own before the inevitable happens. And yay a Direwolf! Melisandre’s scene was haunting and it was a combination of excellent effects, acting and music. I was quite surpised despite having read a Dance with Dragons, I didn’t think they would show this side to her. Intrigued to see what will happen next.
Vepsauttaja,
Agree with you on the long term plotting of Book Doran. – really loved that whole subplot. But don’t think the show has time for that so they just wrapped this in a quicker, easier way. (I am not a fan of how they worked this out but to each his own.)
crimethink,
I totally agree. I am not bashing the show, or trying to be the one troll in a comment section of 100’s. Cause I love this show to the extreme. Which is why I hold it to a high standard. But this was NOT a good episode. WAY WAY WAY to many holes in the writing that previous seasons did NOT do. No wonder they are dropping the number of episodes the next two seasons, because honestly this felt extremely rushed. They missed out on minor details that made this show great. I have faith for the rest of the season. But this premier was hyped too much about being explosive for it to be a huge miss.
The brothers weren’t gathering in the mess hall at night. I think it was clear it was the next day.
Oh yeah, Dany’s ships. It’s a big area, apparently full of people so very difficult to guard effectively, and tinder dry. A few strategically placed small fires, perhaps with some accelerant thrown in, could spread very quickly; those ships look fairly tightly packed together and once the fire’s taken hold, it’s game over. They can’t exactly call the fire brigade.
And LOVE Davos and Edd more than ever, sorry boys forgot to mention you earlier.
The fact that people noticed continuity errors and gaps in logic while watching this episode shows how awful the pace, plot, writing, everything was. If you’re absorbed and engrossed in the story you don’t notice those things.
You know, I’m a bit over the people complaining about Dorne, both here and Reddit.
Dorne isn’t that exciting in the books. Whose to say this won’t happen in the books? How about you let the story play out before you judge it.
crimethink,
What a bunch of nonsense. I seriously question your ability to understand anything without massive exposition?
1. Duh. Thorne did not want to have to deal with Ghost while STABBING JON so he locked him up first.
2-4. Duh. Thorne called everyone else to immediately assemble to solidify his coup – we see this in the very next scene. Melisandre caught word of what happened then went to see Davos. Thorne would not want Jons allies there and Mel and Davos are outsiders with no business in a NW meeting.
5. Ghost started howling as soon as Jon got killed.
6. Duh – When you personally see someone use FUCKING MAGIC it’s reasonable to assume they have other types of FUCKING MAGIC they can do. Like ya know something which could help their present situation.
7. It may surprise you that sometimes people sleep when the sun is up.
Seriously though if you cannot follow this stuff you might want to try something simpler. I find it really very amusing to see book readers go from talking about how obvious the show is and how show watchers must be stupid to suddenly being baffled by pretty clear subtext. All because they no longer have the book plot to go back to. Oh noes!! Now I have to pay attention and think!!!! This is HARD U GAIS.
I enojyed the recap and reading the comments. All of this gives me fuller appreciation. I have a few obsevations:
First, I never expected Jon to get resurrected in Episode 1. I’m thinking maybe episode 4 or 5 if it happens at all this season, and I think it will.
I expect the Wildings will go after the Night’s Watch, and I am looking forward to seeing Olly & Thorne get sliced & diced. I hope Ghost rips Thorne’s heart out and Tormund takes care of Olly, in part because of Ygritte.
I was shocked at how the Dorne assiassinations happened. It seemed too abrupt. I’m not surprised she did it, but I am surprised at how foolishly Prince Doran let down his guard. That part didn’t seem realistic and even if he had his guard wouldn’t have. I just thought the sight of them strolling along amicably was not believeable.
Now, Ellyria has the upper hand for the moment, and she’s obssessed with killing Lannisters and their sympathizers. She’s also in a position to start a ful out war with House Lannister. With two Sand Snakes roaming KL, does this mean Cersei & Jamie ‘s days are numbered? And where’s Bronn? Will the Sand Snakes take out The Mountain?
What’s Littlefinger’s next play? I can’t believe he will try to ingratiate himself to Sansa and Brienne after nasty he’s proven himself to be. Yet he really needs a Stark to hold on to the North if that’s his interest. Or he can either go over to the Tyrells, once Tommen & Jamie get Loras & Margaery out of prison, or hook up with Roose Bolton. But Bolton has no hold on the North without a Stark. Seems Littlefinger’s choices are few. How can he not know about the threat from the Whitewalkers by now. How can any of them.
The biggest plot hole I see, is that ever since Jon and the Wildings fought off the Whitewalkers at Hardhome, there has been no mention of it. You would think the Night’s Watch who survived the battle would’ve come running back to Castle Black with a story to tell. Jon was nevers een reporting on the battle to the assembled Nights Watch, even though as Lord Commander he should have. After all, sentiment aside, the Wildings as allies are critical to the survival of all of them when you place it in the context of what happened at Hardhome. . The battle at Hardhome wwas too big to ignore and yet no one has said anything about it, unless I’m issing something.
I’m intrigued about Mel’s history. Her personal glamour was somewhat expected but it has me even more curious about her agenda.
The ships burning in Meereen’s harbor gives a boost to the idea that Dany will be flying west via her air force and may not be supported by a navy or foreign horde. I like that a lot.
The dogs heard the bell ring for supper. Fresh meat right of the kernel master’s daughter.
Lulus Mum,
Not to mention the city is stunned with fear and inner fighting.
Who the hell would go to put the fire out?
In my opinion, this also show the huge task Tyrion has ahead of him.
Okay what about Emilia’s amazing acting when Khal Moro touches her? That proud, disgusted look. Wow.
Dany is too often in her “Ice Queen” mode so Emilia isn’t given many opportunities to show any range. She did in this episode, in my opinion.
Hodors Bastard,
She’ll have a fleet. A iron fleet.
Luka Nieto,
Emilia nailed it! She was amazing!
That is exactly why I love her!
People seem pretty passionate about Dorne and about everything is said about it, so Im just gonna say that it wasnt horrible, but it would have benefited from better production and desing values. Just killing every plot character in 2 minutes isnt that well done. Though they clearly have something planned for Dorne so we will see, maybe its full wipe or maybe something else.
Another product/design choice that bothered me was the SansaTheon chase. Crossing the river was useless and silly and hiding bloodhounds 2 meters to the right behind the tree made me laugh for wrong reasons. I cant remember if Brienne saw SansaTheon escape in season 5 or if she was just a deus ex machina running suddenly from the woods to save them so cant comment on that one. They could have used the time from crossing the river to show Brienne somehow. Now she just suddenly appears and people like me wonder where she even came from.
It was pretty good start otherwise. Bit too packed that made some scenes seem rushed and/or made some look silly and badly designed but pretty good otherwise. Glad they didnt rush Bran there too. Easily could have dropped Arya to next episode to show more Dorne or something. Loved DavosEdGhost and Cersei. Had a laugh for right reasons for TyrionVarys. Pretty good.
Also was happy that they showed a good reason for Jorah to find the ring.
Team Hodor,
Pedigree Myranda™
I’m sure Ghost would go along with being locked up by Jon’s enemies really well.
This makes no sense. I don’t even know what to say in response.
Wrong. Watch the final scene from last season again.
This is actually possible, but my other criticisms about the plan remain.
Well, I have not read the books, but it is my understanding that the show is going off books. They are trying to not spoil the books for the readers, so all the complaining about Dorne is unnecessary in my opinion. Maybe in the books George will make all of you happy by doing what you think should be done, but I actually liked how it happened in the show. Strong women showing weak men how it should be done!
plop_plop,
Too late. Tormund looked surprised but it maybe be for other reasons than Jon. It could be someone else joining the fight. They don’t want to rush it so episode 3 seems more and more likely. It might just mirror Dany and episode 4 since they like to do parallels.
Ser Not Appearing in this Series,
Faith? I mean Carice talked about her crisis of faith in her interpretation of what she saw in the flames and her cause. It might just be it (rather than another piece of jewelry) because obviously it’s not only in the necklace.
Evelyn,
I remember ”everyone” hating the Sand Snakes introduction last year.
But when the twitter recap was posted the reaction was mostly ”they are badass”
I expect the same here.
I’m going to put this in spoiler space, since what I’ll be discussing is taken from the novels and hasn’t been shown on the show yet.
What we do know is this: The events at the Tower of Joy happened at the end of Robert’s Rebellion, after the sacking of King’s Landing. Ned Stark led a group of 7 knights (including Howland Reed) to the Tower of Joy and found three Kingsguard (Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, and Gerold Hightower). They fought, and everybody except Ned Stark and Howland Reed died.
Once in the Tower of Joy, Ned found Lyanna Stark “in a bed of blood.” Lyanna Stark made Ned promise her something (“Promise me, Ned.”) Ned obliged. Lyanna Stark then died, and Ned broke down the tower to build cairns for the eight dead knights and brought Lyanna’s body back to Winterfell.
Now, what else of significance could possibly have happened there? Especially something that the directors held off on showing until Season Six, when the only character we’ve met who survived the event died way back in Season One (and the other survivor was name dropped once in Season Three, and hasn’t been mentioned since then).
Honestly, I cannot think of any possible reason why they’d be showing this sequence in S6, other than to confirm a popular fan theory. And why is it so important to confirm this fan theory? Because it ties into the return of a certain character.
rorschach,
They could have shown Brienne earlier, but that would have ruined the impact of her appearing just at the vital moment.
Everybody watching will have been on the edge of their seats wondering if Brienne or somebody else (the Wildlings, perhaps? The soldiers of some other Northern Lord? Some Ironborn still left in the North?) will appear to rescue them.
If they had shown Brienne earlier it just would have undermined that edge of the seat moment.
Loved the premiere and I’m really excited to see what they do with Dorne now.
Instead of picking every detail apart we should all learn to relax and enjoy the journey. Sundays will be great fun for the next 9 weeks.
Ramsay's 20th Good Man,
The dogs where barking like crazy, I would be suprized if they didn’t hear them.
Also Pod wasn’t with her when she killed Stannis, perhaps Pod saw the candle or Sansa and Theon running.
Did Jerome Flynn film this off season? Wonder where Bronn was?
Loved the Dothraki scenes, can’t wait for the Monty Python Bloodriders to become Dany’s.
So this season has 80% on Rotten Tomatoes with an average rating of 7.5/10…when Season 5 has a 98% with an average rating of 8.8, it’s unfair to rate a season based on the first episode alone..
This site sucks, critics and watchers shouldn’t be allowed to rate it before the end of the season, it ruins the final score and doesn’t reflect the general opinion when the season ends.
I bet it will have a metascore of 75 whereas Season 5 had a 91. You can’t trust this shit anymore, it’s pointless.
Can’t believe they used this source for a Guiness World Record, so stupid.
My thoughts on Dorne:
Surprised, mostly, but there is nothing here that turns my stomach.
The Dornish plot line from the books is far from the best thing in ASOIAF. The Dornish POVs are, to a man, the most uninteresting and extraneous of GRRMs characters. It doesn’t surprise me that D&D weren’t originally planning on including the Dornish plot, and it also isn’t surprising that a half hearted attempt at it didn’t really pan out. In hindsight, they should have omitted everything except Oberyn, but given that they didn’t, the choice had to be made for Season 6: do we double down on Dorne and invest the time and resources to make it an integral part of the plot, or do we cut our losses and move on. Clearly they decided on the latter, and I applaud them for it.
That being said, I find little fault with the way they cut their losses. Ellaria and the Sand Snakes needed to have a plan in place after the Myrcella assassination; it was clear that this would precipitate a reckoning with Doran. They established that even Doran’s guards found his lack of response a betrayal of Dorne. This is not book-Doran, with the long view of revenge and a plan to that end. This Doran was the worst kind of appeaser, a Dornish Neville Chamberlain.
The major fault I found in the execution of the Dornish scenes was how easily Areo Hotah goes down. At least let the guy swing that pole axe once! I had no problems with Obara and Nymeria in KL. They followed on another ship to assassinate Trystane. If you still have problems with characters traveling long distances in short amounts of screen time, I have a feeling you won’t be liking the end of this series…
A final note on Dorne. Even if the Doran Martell from the books was what his character on the show was supposed to be (which it clearly wasn’t), he still deserved what he got. Book-Doran is championed by some readers as a master of the game, and that his reveal at end of AFFC is total badassery. No! This is a man who sent his eldest son across the world on a wild goose chase and got him killed, didn’t deign to inform his eldest daughter and heir of his plans, and only in the 11th hour reveal to his most trusted relatives some vague, I’ll-formed idea of a plot for vengeance. Good riddance!
I think we should create a Dorne rating scale rate every future episode on it scale. 1 Dorne being a good episode and 5 Dornes being a very bad one.
I think we should create a Dorne rating scale and rate every future episode on it, 1 Dorne being a good episode and 5 Dornes being a very bad one.
Sorry, but to those questioning why Ghost was locked up, why wouldn’t he be locked up in a warm kennel for the night?
Just because we’ve seen him roaming around Castle Black at other times doesn’t mean he doesn’t bed down and get locked up in a kennel at night?
In fact, it’s even MORE likely that he’d be locked up for the night with Jon back at Castle Black, since he’d be better able to control Ghost and Ghost will be more comfortable being locked away while he’s around.
There’s no hole to pick there.
Anybody else mentioned the ironie of Jaime stating, “Fuck everyone who isn’t us” to Cersai?
Yeah Jaime – that’s what you should have done in the first place.
Luka Nieto,
And when he starts laughing after she tells who she is and her titles..
I remember luka how you were appreciative of her scenes with drogon above the pyramid last season in episode 2 ..
She has always been good just give her a space to perform she will do it exactly …
I got used to people ignoring the good stuff or just focusing on bad stuffs
Except that Ellaria clearer states that people view Doran as weak for not avenging Oberyn. That she views Doran as weak for the same reason. Its a terrible reason. Things would be better if they had left that stupidity out. I could get behind her treachery a lot more if it was about his gout. But mentioning Oberyn every time is so freaking annoying. Its the biggest non-sequitur I have every seen.
– Oberyn got himself killed
– Its the Lannisters fault
One does not follow the other. It just makes no sense.
HousePotterz,
See this is a well thought and balanced opinion
I agree with the Hotah part, you gave the guy a cool weapon, use it.
Not here, not now, but rather in S5 against the SS or Bronn. That is my only complaint.
Also fully agree that Doran in the books isn’t a master schemer. He just takes advantage of a chance that came out of no where, and he does a very poor job. Instead of sending a fleet, he sends Quentyn with 4 guys.
I’m among those saddened by the way Dorne was handled. I usually cut the showrunners a fair amount of slack but this (episode 6 so far) was not well done. I think sometimes when they like an actor they give him/her more time than the character in the source material. No disrespect to Indira Varma (who is good at her craft when given something worthwhile to work with ) who can only act with what she is given but this show only subplot was not good and I don’t understand why Ellaria and the sand snakes were made so hateful. Maybe Dorne was included so that Myrcella could be brought back. I also preferred book Doran and it does seem a waste that an actor of Alexander Siddig’s calibre was not used better.
The thought went through my head but I doubt she’d be introduced this late in the game (unless she is the “gorgeous brunette” the casting calls were for last year though I think that’s it’s more likely that particular call was for someone to play Lyanna Stark).
I felt similarly about Dorne as well. But I’m curious… what the hell did they have planned for Dorne in the first place that they decided to scrap? And why in this way? Certainly D&D know people hated the SS last season. Why not have them all executed and then have Trystane decide to return to Dorne or something? Or was this the only way they could kill off every Dorne character? The SS will either drop one by one in the coming episodes or have some random plot for the season I guess.
Looper,
I didn’t hate them.
Its actually pretty simple to believe she was there, because she already was. She was already watching Winterfell when Stannis marched on it, and she went down to the field to kill Stannis when the battle was over, so she was already in the right place as of Season 5. Its not much of a stretch at all to imagine she saw and heard Ramsey’s pursuit because she was already in a position to see it happen.
Mihnea,
Could you please respect your promise and find another place to talk about the show?
You’ve been spamming the same thing more than 20 times in the thread, complaining that people only compare books and show but never taking the time to address those who have valid arguments because of what transpired on-screen.
One more observation about the Dornish plot :
If Trystane is still in his boat after Jaime and Cersei’s reunion, it means that Jaime is BSing Cersei, he has absolutely no intention of doing anything for her or to avenge Myrcella.
He knows that if Cersei knew that Trystane was on the boat she would never let him go, but he apparently chose to do it anyway.
Mihnea,
One of the complaints at the end of last season was that the Boltons would surely send riders and hounds to catch up with Sansa and Theon in no time at all.
Brienne and Pod could obviously have seen these hunting parties leaving Winterfell and, as you suggest, if they eventually saw the candle then they would know exactly what was going on.
Obviously, we have to suspend our disbelief slightly in accepting that Brienne would have followed the correct hunting party but at the vital moment, as you say, they would have heard the dogs and the commotion.
Ramsay's 20th Good Man,
When there is no hole, create one!
hahaha
I can see that a few people are a little disappointed with the premiere, but often when people are desperately waiting for something it can only disappoint. Premieres have a very hard job to do. I know a lot of people hated Dorne, but I don’t think it will appear much this season, so at least they’ve got it out of the way. I didn’t hate it it at all, although I expected it to have a negative reaction because whatever they would have done with Dorne would’ve been hated by some. For example, if they had killed Ellaria and the SS, you would have been left with “boring” Trystane. Maybe they shouldn’t have introduced it in the show at all, but they had to do something about Myrcella so I can see why they did.
I was a little worried about the Dothraki storyline, but I thought that was brilliantly introduced, and you could really see how budget increases since season one have helped them capture the scale of the Dothraki.
Furthermore, I know some people thought the premiere was short, which is was, but since they were extremely stretched when filming this year I have decided to not criticise them about the length of episodes. They have done as much as they possibly could, although naturally it would great if the episodes were an hour each. I don’t think any of the scenes in this episode could have been considered “filler”. They did their job of re-introducing us to the characters, and all furthered the plot (especially Dorne), which scenes do not always do.
Even if you hated Dorne, I would have thought there was plenty for people to enjoy, and lots of positive things to look forward to in forthcoming weeks.
Dorne bashers are just book readers upset with changes to their beloved material. Here at my GoT party, the casual viewers loved the Dorne stuff, therefore D&D are pandering to them not book fans; and since there are far more of them than you, who wins, HBO.
SnowmanTheJimmy,
What and let this site go the same way as Wseteros.org did?
Nah.
SnowmanTheJimmy,
We have no idea exactly what Jaime planned to do with Trystane. But Trystane was a valuable hostage.
Holding him captive would have ensured that Doran would seek out and punish Myrcella’s killers.
What Jaime and the Lannisters would have done to Trystane and to Dorne after that, we can’t be sure. But murdering Trystane would have been utterly stupid when he was more use to them alive, for the meantime.
Episode 2 preview
tyjon,
Just wait for the twitter recap.
Last year everyone was yelling how bad the Sand Snakes introduction was….But the reaction on twitter was mostly… ”They are badass!”
So Dorne: I think I liked it.
It kind of depends on what happens next. The Dorne storyline could be surprisingly good in the end or unsurprisingly horrible. Right now I think I liked what happened, because I didn’t expect it and I think not many did. Surprise by itself isn’t the only quality of a story of course, but at this stage, what annoys me the most, is that everyone seems to know exactly what should or will happen in every major storyline. With every fantasy trope we suppose to recognize as the story nears it’s end, it seems harder and harder to bring this whole thing to a conclusion that is both satisfying and unpredictable. If most of the events turn out to be like everyone thinks, then why would we care any more?
If Jon is resurrected in some way like it seems inevitable, then I won’t be surprised, I will just be waiting for it to happen. That doesn’t mean I won’t like it of course, I just would rather be surprised also, because I expect these writers to be at least one step ahead of the next best internet pundit.
Most people seem to have expected Doran to find out about Ellarias plot and kill her and the Snakes. That would have been predictable and probably also what most people would have liked. I am glad that this series still manages to avoid those obvious directions. My prediction from last season was that Doran was in on the plan to kill Myrcella for whatever reason. So all in all most people expected more of Doran, and casting Alexander Siddig in that role probably was a similar ploy as with Sean Bean in season 1, and it worked again. It’s just a shame, as an old DS9 fan I really wanted to see more from him.
I haven’t read the books but I understand that Doran in the books really is more of an intelligent schemer who only seems like an old fool. As I said, that impression was most likely intended in the show as well (and of course a play on book readers knowledge), but here he really was just an old fool. Obviously by changing major storylines from the books you sometimes have to change the personalities of the characters in it (Ellaria too, from what I read). Not having read the books I don’t mind that much, because I don’t know these characters in advance, but I get that people are angry when characters change from who they were in the books and could have been in the show.
I wonder where the Sand Snakes in Kings Landing will lead us and what Ellarias master plan really is. Because if that doesn’t go anywhere, and it all really is just a tidy cleanup of an inconsequential Dorne plot, than this really is bad. For now I am still intrigued.
The scenes with the Dornish feel a little rushed and wonky at times, I will admit that. I hated some of the Dorne stuff last season as much as anyone. But I also think many go a little overboard with the weird plot hole hunting. People already explained it multiple times but, the Sand Snakes arrival in Kings Landing is far from inexplicable. They just had to take a ship a little later. It is absolutely possible to follow a ship behind the horizon without being seen. But that is stuff that only people who don’t like what happened care about, so I am glad over all that they avoid superfluous exposition, that would only prolong the scenes that these people then wouldn’t like anyway.
Love is blind and often irrational. It is about what Ellaria thinks, not what anyone else thinks.
As a first of the season episode this was good enough given there was a forest of cliff hangers at the end of Season 5. I disagree about Dorne. One of the themes in GOT is the disconnect between leaders and their people. Snow obviously lacked the support of the Night’s Watch as he moved forward with his plans to make allies of the Wildlings. Cersei’s misreading of the High Sparrow and the strength of the Faith Militant earned her a rather nasty time in jail and that most entertaining stroll through the worst of Kings’ Landing. Even Dany can’t keep the folks in Mereen happy given that they would really be known as slavers and slaves with gladiator pits. The plotline involving the Sand Snakes is actually one of my favorites. Only in GOT do you have really, really vicious females. It makes perfect sense that some in Dorne do not want to make peace with the folks in Kings Landing.
Ramsay's 20th Good Man,
I think “hero riding from the misty forest to save the day at the last moment” fits more into Lord of the Rings than Game of Thrones but maybe that is just my opinion. I think it would have worked better maybe showing Brienne ride like mad to try to save Sansa, desperate, gasping for air, riding through thick forest, franticly searching for her, appearing from the mist lost and wild, accidentally to the spot where Bolton men are surrounding SansaTheon and BLAM – action scene. Now it was maybe bit too cheesy for GoT. Well, matters of opinion.
SnowmanTheJimmy,
I don’t think people should be pushed away from this site just because they dared to like a storyline that the majority hated. I think positivity should be encouraged, which is why when I say I dislike some part of an episode I always mention a part that I like, because every episode has something good (and vice versa). It is the book purists which get on my nerves personally. I’m not accusing people who hated the Dorne storyline of all being book purists, because that would be ridiculous and completely false. It is the people that hate everything that are the problem, but they are lucky enough to have a forum to express that anger all the time (westeros.org). WotW should be about all opinions, except if those opinions are completely hateful (and I reiterate people who hated Dorne are not necessarily like that at all).
Looper,
I was chocked at the developments in Dorne, and I needed some time to process it. However, it doesn’t bother me too much. I’ve been arguing for a while that Dorne on the show is an ode to B-type amazone warrior tv-series like Xena. That would seem to be true still with this killing rampage. I don’t mind too much that Doran characters was changed. Now, in the show, he’s a ruler who wants peace most of all, and he was too soft in a country like dorne. We think about it, and maybe he only kept his place because of Oberyn. It’s only because of things I know from the book, that his sudden death bothered me upon watching it. Now, that I seperated the too medias in my head, and try and see the show for itself, it works fine. Doran was too nice, simply, and it made him week. It does worry me, that Ellaria and the sandsnakes are now the only connection we have with Dorne, since the writers gave them absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever. I actually like them. They’re fun. But I do not root for them, Ellaria least of all. So is this gonna mean that I start getting sympaty for the party they will uppose, that would be cercei. I’m very cuorius to see how they mean to use Dorne now. By the way, the actress playing Obara was really hot this time around 🙂 The sandsnakes are hot, another plus.
Cock Merchant,
I love Dorne. Especially after this episode.
But I will criticize them to no end if they just brush this story aside.
You made your choice, stick with it and go to the end with it. Don’t double down because some may not like it.
Zalos,
Well said. Thank you for this.
I liked the scene between Cersei and Jaime. Lena Headey is getting quite good at being able to garner sympathy for the worst woman in Westeros.
Finally we see a bit of humanity in Cersei and the roles are reversed and its now Jaime threatening to destroy everything and everybody else in defence of his family. I doubt Cersei’s newfound sense of humility will last long, though.
I also really liked the scene between Sansa and Brienne. The sense of relief on Brienne’s face when Sansa accepted her into her service was sweet. Finally, she can fulfill her vow.
And Sansa’s smile, as she finally has somebody who will truly fight her corner. This being Game of Thrones, though, I don’t expect their sense of relief to last too long either.
And the scenes at Castle Black were strong. Owen Teale and Ben Crompton were both very good as counterpoints in the opposing Night’s Watch factions.
And I don’t think I’ll ever look at Carice van Houten the same way again.
Did anyone else thoroughly enjoy seeing Reek (aesthetic’d Theon) holding a fucking greatsword?
And that ending, oh my god. I was aware of there being theories about a glamored Mel, but even so, I just couldn’t believe it. What an interesting start to a season.
This is the only positive place when you’re a GoT fan, it’s depressing.
I guess I will take a break from this madness…and do other things. I was looking forward to see the reaction from people all over the Internet but it’s just whining and more whining. It reminds me of Dexter and Lost, two shows that I loved that were teared apart.
Thankfully the fans from my country are more positive towards the show than in the US.
It’s going to be a tough wait until the next episode.
>>I’m so confused with the “show” Dorne. Who’s left now to care about or be a part of the Iron Throne battle?
At the end of aDwD book-Doran is looking at supporting Young Griff instead of keeping with the secret marriage plot. If he learns of Quentin getting burninated he might just think Daenerys did it on purpose and go full on for Griff. Whereas the Myrcella-supporting faction has the perfect justification for supporting Daenerys, due to their support of women taking precedence in the succession. It’s possible that one major event in the upcoming books is a coup in Dorne by the Sand Snakes and Darkstar. Doran’s master plan is secret, so the smallfolks are not aware of it. Doran thus appears weak to everyone. After supporting Griff maybe the way Dorne goes into the fold for Dany is via this coup.
My guess is that the show decided to do away with the whole Griff and Quentin plotline and so needed a way to get a Dornish coup and Dorne in the bank for Daenerys later without introducing those plots. It still makes the whole thing horribly rushed but at least this way might be justified due to show constraints.
Team Hodor,
Oh of course! That’s Ramsay for you, romantic AND practical. Obviously an animal lover, he wants them to have a good meal, takes them out for exciting chases etc. Can’t imagine why Sansa would want to leave? 😉
Not much speculation on here so far for ep2 or how these events affect the rest of S6 so I’ll do some. I’m feeling very chatty at the moment, feel free to ignore my endless rambling everyone, at least it keeps me off the streets! 😀 I’ll put stuff from trailers in spoilers as well as book things and what we’ve learned in the off season just in case, as there’s certainly some overlap involved.
So….hoping Jon’s fate is decided in ep2.
Two crazy sand snakes in KL, they surely have to do some damage there? although it may not be immediately. The crew of Trystane’s ship were presumably either in on the coup or thought they were no threat and allowed them on board. If his death doesn’t become known in KL quickly they could get up to all sorts, perhaps with the boat crew helping them? Presumably only Jaime and Bronn know what they look like and no-one else in KL currently knows they are there anyway. Maybe they hid/bide their time and go after Tommen?
from the ep 2 trailer
I agree that the attacks in Dorne were a bit rushed seeming and I was especially surprised at how easily Areo Hota was dispatched. But between the scenes with Jaime and Cersei and the Dornish scenes, I am expecting war to come from the South in a rather big way. So I am not necessarily in agreement that the writers were trying to wipe the Dornish slate clean.
And we also learned a very important lesson in this episode: never turn your back on a person with a sharp spear in favor of fighting someone with a whip.
carbonUnit,
The problem isnt about if its possible or not. Its about the stretching. If I have to start making wild guesses about things in the show, then it fails. Good example here how people dont like how the Sand Snakes appeared on the boat. Yes, its possible how they followed the boat in the sea and secretly sneaked into the cabin to kill Trystane but that isnt good design. If the show doesnt show how its done, then it isnt a show.
Its a thin line though. Another example is how Ghost was locked somewhere. People are angry how and who did it, but they still showed that Ghost was locked behind a door. I think it was enough, rather than not showing anything when people would think “now where was Ghost when Jon go killed”. Some cuts must be made and they cant show everything.
TheSnarkAtWinterfell,
If you pause it (from my point of view) you can see on the left what looks to be a wolf or dog and on the right would appear to be a dragon. I could be wrong though 😉
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Never said that Jaime should have murdered him.
I’m not saying either that i see this action as a “plot error”.
I’m just pointing that Jaime is lying to Cersei on their “réunion” scene because he deliberately hid Trystane from her.
Mihnea’s 20th Good Man,
I didn’t read your last few comments before replying (and they are not targeted by what i said) but before that you replied at least half a dozen times that people complain just because of book difference while doing exactly the same thing : not addressing what their issues are (even when no book knowledge is needed to form said opinions).
Saying time and again that people complain just because… books is exactly the same as complaining just because…. books.
I don’t care too much about Doran and Trystane being killed. We knew that we wouldn’t get anything like their book versions anyway. Might be it was mainly for “shock effect”, but let’s wait and see what comes from this. However, I continue to be annoyed by the greedy bitches.. uhm, I mean Sand Snakes. B-movie characters at best.
Tyrion & Varys having a walk completely without guards took me somewhat out of the scene, especially since they are up against a mysterious guerilla force like the SotH. Also that scene didnt accomplish much besides telling us that Varys send out his birds.
Brienne and Sansa was nicely done, although I think Sansa would remember the words of the oath. She had a thing for courtesy and chivalrous stories and the like after all.
Brienne’s fighting skills are way over the top in the show. They turned her into this incredibly badass bellowing brute, who somehow everybody seems to love. I prefer the nuanced, conflicted book-Brienne, who’s still a great fighter but not this boring superhero. Her arriving right in time seems a little convenient but i guess it can be explained with the noise of the dogs which should be easy to follow.
Really enjoyed the Wall, Dany (had a good laugh when someone made the Spanish Inquisition comparance upthread) and Daario/Jorah. Boltons and Kings Landing was fine, I guess.
All in all I’m not exactly overwhelmed by the episode but far from disappointed.
Yes. Exactly for the same reason. I love it when Dany is allowed to show some emotion. I hope this is a good season for Dany in that respect.
Hm… and, you know, Dany has no fleet now. Kind of important, the climax to the scene 😛
LOL, what if Melisandre glamors Davos to look like Jon Snow?
Knight of the Walkers,
Totally agree, i don’t have anything against diverging opinions, i could just do better with less “spamming” and more constructive discussion instead of “If you can’t understand that show =/= books i don’t want to discuss with you”.
(and i don’t want to push anyone anywhere, i was only trying (with clumsy english) to use an argument back at someone).
rorschach,
I can see why it might be considered cheesy.
But I don’t think any establishing shots of Brienne tracking Sansa or rushing to the rescue would have completely altered that impression; but they would certainly have undermined the edge of the seat moment, which is what they appear to have been going for, and which at least succeeded on me.
I wouldn’t be surprised if it was influenced by filming restraints too. Filming extra expositional shots of Brienne that could end up on the cutting room floor anyway might just not have been realistic.
Mihnea,
I doubt that we’ll see much of Dorne this season, but I do think the stuff we will see will be important to the overall story i.e. they’re not going to give us much background to those scenes, but the scenes themselves will be important.
rorschach,
Do you really need explanation on how a pair of assassins got on a boat to kill their target? seriously you probably shouldn’t watch films and tv if you constantly need things explained to you with minute details. You should stick to reading books with pictures(comics) judging by your username LOL.
Maester Murks,
The tyrion/varys walk reminded me of Blackadder. With the prince dressing down and walking amongst the peasants. Good morning ‘peasant’ was all that was missing.
Sansa, Theon, Brienne & Pod scene made the episode for me. I teared up when Theon hugged Sansa to keep her warm & openly wept when Brienne & Sansa exchanged the words of the oath. The fact that it mirrored the oath between Cat & Brienne was beautifully touching.
& I completely agree with Sue here regarding Roose & how recklessly he is treating his psychopathic son. If he is not careful, Ramsey will kill both him & his wife & make it look like an accident.
Aaaaand there’s more (I’m Jared’s apprentice this series).
Lena’s face was amazing in the running to greet the ship slowly realising what’s happened scene. Walda, get out of there NOW!!
Someone wrote a really good post recently about the question of who would end up on the iron throne and how all the major Houses are basically destroying themselves to the point there won’t be anyone left to be ruler (example at the bottom). The Dorne coup adds the Martells/Sands to the self-destruct mode list and I have a horrible feeling that Marg is going to somehow get Loras killed in her attempt to save herself. Could well be totally inadvertently but I have a very bad feeling about this. If it happens, as he is the only male child in the show, that’s the Tyrell line effectivly wiped out too. I believe as things stand she can’t carry it on herself?
(Example the Baratheons: Robert killed by wife; Renly by brother; Shireen by her parents, causing her mother to take her own life in remorse; Stannis’s refusal to bend led to his and his entire army’s deaths when he insisted on fighting a battle with ridiculously poor chance of success; all Robert’s illegitimate children killed on Joffrey’s orders, bar Gendry who is hiding by rowing himself to death due to Stannis’s plan to sacrifice him; technically Joffery, Myrcella and Tommen are Baratheons but two of them are dead and the odds on Tommen surviving are quite slim.)
Zalos,
Thank you Zalos. It is awful how blinded one can be when one hates for the sake of it. This kind of people despise plausibility’s right to have many explanations. But even if there is one plausible explanation which one has to deduce it by himself that is also a crime, because one has to think and the act of thinking is a complicated one for which nowadays not everybody is trained to be fit.
I had some trepidation coming in to this season, but that was a great episode! I feel bad for Alexander Siddig, who was completely wasted in this show, but I loved that they killed off Trystane and are just going with a scenario of “What if Arianne didn’t have Darkstar…and she actually WON?” Why the hell not? If it makes the Dorne storyline watchable I’m all for it.
Only scene that struck a wrong note for me was the scene with Ramsey/Miranda, because no1curr about a straight-up psychopath who makes Joffrey look well-adjusted. Are we supposed to suddenly care now for his crocodile tears? Bah humbug.
Otherwise, soooo excited for next week!
The Dragon Demands,
This is the best comment by far. You made me laugh, while so accurately describing my distress.
More evidence that Davos will die this season. But it should be a good one!
Knight of the Walkers,
I do expect couple of more scenes though.
I would be very disapointed if they just forget the entire thing.
If they wanted to do that, they could have easly killed Ellaria and the Sand Snakes right here, right now.
So them doing this, gives me hope that we will see more of Dorne. Not a huge amount but more then last season, at least.
SnowmanTheJimmy,
Well, we have absolutely no idea whether Jaime hid Trystane from Cersei.
Just because he wasn’t mentioned in that scene doesn’t mean that Cersei does not know that he’s sitting on the Dornish ship in the harbour.
You’re criticising the character’s actions based on an assumption that you have made.
A thought on the comment about “Brienne ex machina.” I didn’t see it like that at all. Ex machina is something that comes literally out of nowhere to save a protagonist, but from what we know of Brienne, she isn’t showing up out of nowhere.
She and Pod have been surveying Winterfell for some time now, waiting for Sansa to signal for help. Then Stannis arrives, and Brienne departs to exact her revenge. At the same time, Sansa escapes her room and lights the candle. Although off-screen, it isn’t a huge jump in logic to conclude that the escape of Theon and Sansa would be big news, for Brienne to learn of it and survey Winterfell until a search party departs (easy enough to spot with all the hounds), and follow them in case they are successful. It makes a lot more sense to follow the search party than to go off into the freezing north on their own search. Thus, Brienne and Pod are well placed to spring into action when Sansa and Theon are found.
That’s not an ex machina.
Rich Stark,
I feel like Roose treats Ramsay this way to remind him he is in charge and not afraid of him. If he showed fear, that’s also opening himself up to Ramsay killing him. There is really no good way to handle that bastard.
HousePotterz,
Good point!
Why does the recap say Trystane’s biography is a confusing mess…it reads exactly like it played out. What’s the problem?
SnowmanTheJimmy,
OK, Thanks for clarifying. Spamming either way is bad, because there’s positive and negative aspects to 90% of the episodes. I wish more people would say what they liked and what they didn’t like rather than just focussing on all positive things/all negative things. It is that discussion that helps sustain and grow a site like this (and is why westeros.org is a horrible place to visit now). I wouldn’t want this site to be purely positive, because the constructive discussion that goes on is what makes it interesting to read.
I hope more people on this site discuss things they like and dislike for future episodes. It is a lot easier to respect their opinion, and can avoid all theis show wanker-book purist nonsense. Sean C made an excellent post earlier on this thread, where he rated each storyline. I disagree with some of his opinions, but I respect them and understand his POV precisely because he explained them, and had both positive and negative opinions.
Ye of little faith. I don’t believe it. Not a all. Like Mel we saw him fighting at winterfell. It will happen.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Yeah, there is lots of ifs. I guess the point is that it wasnt bad because people liked it, but it wasnt perfect because people gave critic to it. We can only “maybe if” it now.
Praise The Sun,
Seriously man. We dont need that kind of attitude here. Please.
Few more quick thoughts after rewatching some stuff:
1. Nymeria is friggin’ hawt, man. I want her to be in more episodes.
2. I’ve seen this bit
“A bloody woman!”
*Gets basically chopped in half*
three times now, and I still laugh really loud.
3. I like when Davos says “Thank you Ser Alliser. We’ll discuss amongst ourselves and get back to you with an answer” and Alliser’s eyes dart back and forth for a second like he’s really not sure what to do with himself. He’s obviously not used to dealing with the Politest Man in Westeros.
4. I go into every Theon scene thinking he’s pretty much all I’m going to care about (he’s my favourite character in the story, I can’t help it), but that exchange between Sansa and Brienne (as well as Pod and Ramin god-damn Djawadi) was truly beautiful. That look of unbridled joy on Brienne’s face was just <3
Lulus Mum,
Well the other possibility is that there just won’t be an Iron Throne left for anyone to take!
I’ll have to do some research but I am sure there are real historical examples of internecine family feuds that left no direct patrilineal/matrilineal heirs (there are usually byblows and distant relatives with a tenuous claim left somewhere or another).
The Dorne story continues to be a stain on an otherwise amazing show. It’s now reached cartoon levels of ridiculousness. If I didn’t know any better I’d swear they were doing it on purpose for comic relief. It’s like watching a parody sketch of Game of Thrones.
I have to laugh looking back at some of the speculation that was posted after the trailers aired? That being what was Mel doing removing her robe and all the ‘sexual innuendos’ regarding this such as performing sex with JS to bring him back… Well, you were all wrong 😉
The bottom line being – Simply she was undressing to go to bed and returning back to the form she really is without her magic working to keep her young looking.
Wimsey,
Finally someone with a sense of humor about it 🙂
Overall, I have to say I really, really enjoyed the episode. Loved hearing Brienne’s horse before it arrived so I could suitably cheer; poignant opening with Ghost howling sent shivers up my spine (and a voice in the back of my head whispered “he’s really dead); Theon has come to the front and I just knew he was going to save Pod; I felt sad for Cersei, pretty sure Margery still has herself in check; LOVED Ramsay being all soft and non-Ramsay-like then suggesting she be fed to the dogs; pretty sure Roose is pushing his luck; not at all unhappy with the Dothraki scenes; Tyrion & Varys & little birds and someone always wants to murder you…so many great scenes…
As to Dorne…well, it’s Dorne. My personal opinion was it wasn’t fulfilling in the book and D&D seem to be TRYING to take an awful storyline and move it along. Didn’t mind the scene with Nym and Ellaria though kind of surprised they brought down such a big guy with just a knife to the back then realized in the right spot he’d have been paralyzed so I told myself that was it and moved my thinking forward. IMO, the SS are not really great or the Dorne storyline, but there is so much to appreciate from this first episode I don’t intend to complain about the few things that I didn’t. I believe we must not give in to little irritations…anger shortens your life expectancy!
Great Episode 1, bring on 2!!
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Maybe but the absence of any mention of Trystane by Jaime in the scene makes it suspicious.
Why not directly talk about him to appease Cersei if your assumption is right (he didn’t hid him on purpose) why going all the way “us against everyone for.. VENGEANCE” when mentioning that they potentially have a Martell prisoner would give Cersei the opportunity to see that he is already backing his words with actions ?
Again, i’m only reflecting on Show_Jaime’s mindset, not trying to find present or future “plot-holes”.
HousePotterz,
it’s an ex machina because Brienne and Pod were nowhere to be seen before that scene, and they showed up in the knick of time.
we last saw Brienne near Winterfell and the battle. So after that, we are left to assume that she left Stannis’ body and returned to Pod and managed to happen upon or track Sansa and Theon through the woods, which was quite a haul from Winterfell and across the river, and save them at the perfect time. I’m not saying those things are impossible but we did not SEE any of those steps happen onscreen. She simply appeared out of nowhere to save them so it’s a surprise.
Honestly you guys put too much effort into nitpicking idle choices of
phrases sometimes. But here’s the dictionary definition if you’re still confused: Deus ex machina: an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.
That’s all it is.
Black Raven,
Old-Mel and Jon sexual resurrection spell. Hot damn, now thats some episode 2 stuff.
Wimsey,
I re-watched the scene. And she steps out of the bath … no ruby … i think the people who talk about the vials may have it right … or it may be some combination … and what she said is no not that vial … you don’t even want to touch that vial … i always assumed it was poison … but it could have been the blue vial she used to sprinkle in the bathwater … who knows …
Solid premiere. The Sansa and Brienne scene was gorgeously done, Tyrion and Varys have a great little bromance, and Melisandre confirms one of my thoughts about the last book. I just can’t wait for next week as per usual.
But dear Lord does Dorne continue to be a mess. I just don’t get it. What a waste of Alexander Siddig.
My full thoughts
Overall, I enjoyed the episode. The promo for the second episode has me so pumped, though!!
Anywho, here are my thoughts:
Highlights:
1. Sansa!!!! Looks like she is taking her first steps in becoming Queen in the North! Love that it looks like she’s finally able to find her good knight (providing Sandor doesn’t pop up to her again<3) and Brienne is able to find a noble leader to stand behind, aside from Jaime. Bonus points in that Sansa will probably be alive longer than her former leaders.
2. Dany and the Dothraki! We got a throwback to her time in Astapor, which was nice. I loved her expressions when the bloodriders were talking crap about her. She is definitely not the timid girl she used to be when faced with a Dothraki horde. I have a feeling that if the bloodriders aren't meant to be snacks for Drogon later, they might end up as faithful warriors of Dany who give her a hard time on occasion. That would be cool.
3. Kings Landing! I'm ready to see Cersei wreck the joint and I'm also excited for how Margaery will deal with the High Sparrow. The last expression she gave looked kind of contemplative and sly.
4. The Wall! Davos and his mutton! I think Melisandre might do something that involve giving away her youth to resurrect Jon Snow. Perhaps that is what she was contemplating in the final scene, and she was "living" with her future appearance for the night. Either way, since we've lost Aemon, we need to have a badass granny with one of the characters!
On a side note, if Jon sees her as a granny, he will probably be extremely relieved that he never slept with her. XD
Misses/Confusion
1. Some people mention that the flow was a little off, and I have to agree, but the episode as a whole still worked. I think a bit of flow sacrifice is necessary to explain some of the more pressing cliffhangers. Next episode and beyond should be cool!
2. I was a little irritated when I saw the leaks, but passed off the descriptions. When it came to pass that the descriptions were true (though, of course, there was more to the story), I was mainly just disappointed at first. However, when I think of things to come, I can kind of see how Dorne can work now, even with the issues at hand.
There are really only 2 things that kind of bother me about it:
1. The Sand Snakes were on the shore when the boat left Dorne. My only rationalization for what happened to Trystane is that apparently Dorne may have had faster "war" ships, so the 2 sailed off at a different route, arrived at Kings Landing, and snuck on the boat with Trystane (might actually work if everyone in Dorne is as mad at Doran as we're led to believe.) Perhaps Jaime's boat was docked for a while to get more supplies? Not sure, but I'll go with this rationalization to make more sense to me.
2. Assassination of Doran, A. Hotah, and Trystane by Ellaria and Sand Snakes. This scene leads me to believe that in the books, trusting in Fake Aegon may have dire consequences for Dorne. I'm sad to see Doran go, and I'm sad to miss the Fire and Blood speech, but maybe we'll get it from Ellaria in the next few episodes? Perhaps she sends Tyene to Meereen to offer Dany forces? Not sure, but since Fake Aegon is cut, that seems like it could be likely.
3. Melisandre's necklace, however, I think I might be able to rationalize this. In season 4, when she was in the bathtub, she was still extremely confident in her faith, and she was surrounded by fire from candles. Perhaps that has something to do with how well her glamour works? Maybe the approach of Winter, her lack of confidence, the natural light, and the WANT to remove her glamour are factors in removing it.
Anywho, this episode, along with the promo for episode 2 have me so pumped!!! The hype is real for the next episodes!
Luka Nieto,
You’re right… I was waaay too tired when I watched. I actually had forgotten about the fire
There would also have been the issue of Thorne’s unpopularity with the NW. As we saw, Jon still had supporters, even if they didn’t like what he was doing
That, and that the Harpy’s have a leader, that the Harpies are a force with which to be reckoned, and that the R’hllorites are a two-edged sword that might be useful to Tyrion but also dangerous to him.
Actually, that little scene accomplished a hell of a lot.
rorschach,
seriously though you have no logic to comprehend what is happening during scenes. Do you seriously think The sand snakes somehow swam on the boat while it was sailing away. Do you know that there are different types of ships and some are faster than others? You should try to figure things out by yourself before asking stupid questions just saying LOL.
Luka Nieto,
Which brings her to the same situation as in the books … no ships …
That specific comic you’re referring to is on Time’s list of the 100 best english novels of the 20th century.
Her ships being destroyed the same year they finally decide to add Euron to the adaptation makes for an obvious connection. It’s likely Euron’s main point in this story (books included) which is why they waited as long as they did.
I’ve seen some people say that “The Red Woman” was a slow episode, which I strongly disagree with. It was definitely a diffuse episode, however … checking in with no fewer than ten separate locations. I’ve made the case that I prefer it when the show focuses on a few central locations for a given hour, but if any episode was going to check in with as many characters as possible, I’m glad that it was the season premiere. Now that we’ve established where almost everyone is, they can take episodes off as necessary.
Even better, pretty much all of the scenes that we saw last night were great (and the one storyline that people are upset about is one that’s sitting much better with me now that I’ve slept on it).
The Wall
If anyone believes that Jon Snow is staying dead after this episode, I don’t know what to say. If we were done with him forever, they wouldn’t have dragged this standoff with the Night’s Watch into Episode 2 – just lay him to rest and be done with it. He won’t be resting long – Episode 3 would be my guess as to when he’ll be revived. “I saw him in the flames, fighting at Winterfell …”
Davos was great in this episode – his wry sense of humor is such a critical asset. Edd was great as well. “If you wanted to see tomorrow, you picked the wrong room!” Strange as it is, I think Edd’s going to be OK. Perhaps he’ll be the last man guarding the Wall after all.
As for the glamour … I was surprised by how well it worked. I have made my hatred for the way that Melisandre uses it on Rattleshirt to fake Mance’s death abundantly clear. That asinine bit of misdirection is my least favorite moment in ADWD, if not the entirety of ASOIAF. But that disdain doesn’t extend to Melisandre’s own glamour … which I thought worked nicely as the closing to this episode. It’s certainly been hinted at, both in the show and the novels. Furthermore, David Benioff confirms in the “Inside the Episode” piece that it’s something GRRM has more-or-less confirmed during one of their conversations.
For those wondering about the scene in Season 4 where Melisandre takes a bath and doesn’t have the jewel on, I think there are three possible explanations. One, the power of the glamour is faith is dependent on her faith, not on the jewel. That faith is running hot and strong in Season 4 but is now at its lowest ebb. Tired and lost, she gives up the ghost and lets the illusion fall.
Two, during that bath, she asks Selyse to fetch her a vial containing some potion, which she then empties into the bath. There was a shot focusing on a similar vial on her desk in this episode. Perhaps that plays a role.
Three, the show hadn’t decided yet it was going to feature Melisandre’s glamour when they wrote that scene for Melisandre in the bath (which was a good scene, and gave Caric van Houten something to play during Melisandre’s most scant season for material). If that’s the case, then perhaps it represents a minor continuity error … but it’s not one that I care about, because I can rationalize it with either of the two preceding explanations.
Regardless, I think Stannis may be glad that he died before he had the chance to learn that particular piece of information. 😉
Praise The Sun,
Some ships are faster then others….
Is there no one else that is worried that Tyrion could take the place of Quentyn and be burned to death trying to release the dragons?
At first I had to stop during the Dorne scene… to take a long laugh… what a waste, the pinnacle of this orientopolish sandal-charade..
But on the other hand I never liked the plot in the books (except for Arianne’s teats… and cheesy Darkstar), it was the beginning of meandering, self-indulgent, copious detailed GRRM and his leal amount of nuncling and neeping to water down formerly good storylines down the turtle river…
I thought of Quentyn and those boring chapters in the tower, Hotah was also a bore with an axe… So in the end I really couldn’t care less.
Let’s see how the deadly viper squad goes down in a blaze of wildfire…
Also, Oathbreaker could symbolize the rezzi of Jon and his choice to leave the night’s watch to avenge his family and take back Winterfell.
HBO office Guy,
Kit Harington is still like 4th billed in the credits…
To follow up on that, DEM is the same as as Chekhov’s Reverse Gun: i.e., firing a gun late that was not hung early. So, this would have been DEM is Brienne had been introduced in this scene. On the contrary, we knew that Brienne was in the north solely because of Sansa. Moreover, if Brienne & Pod had been tailing the tailers (which would be a smart tactic), then they would have had to be close behind them. It also would be easy: when you are focused on what is in front of you, you do not pay attention to what is behind you.
And Brienne really was not just in the nick of time, either: if the Bolton soldiers had started marching Sansa & Theon back, then they would have run right into Brienne. “Just in the nick of time” would have been if Brienne & Pod had gotten them just before they reached the view of Winterfell.
Now, if the Old Gods suddenly revive Jon, then that would be completely DEM: never has the show given us any hint that the Old Gods could do this. Or if an Ice Dragon swopped down, breathed life back into Jon, and then the two of them flew off (with Ghost in back wearing WWI pilot goggles & a scarf), then that would be completely DEM. Instead, this was firing a hung gun.
Mihnea,
Hey just throwing ideas out there. since we’re trying to solve the mystery of how sand snakes got to kings landing, how ghost got locked in a kennel and most importantly how those little bloodhounds disappeared when Brienne charged in unnoticed.
It probably would have been faster to get there by horses, especially for experienced horsewomen. But you are correct: it would not have been that tough for them to get to Kings Landing in the amount of time it would have had to elapse.
The easier rationalization is that it was just a continuity error that they did not catch during production. Those happen all the time. Sometimes it’s as trivial as taking off something like that between takes and then forgetting to put it back on! (That’s the #1 reason why people’s clothing shifts within scenes.)
Yeah, I noticed that. We figured that they cut out showing them kill the dogs. As Doctor Johnny Fever once noted, you can wipe out an entire army division and people think that it’s cool: but if one dog gets hurt, then there is an uproar!
Decent episode, except for the Dorne storyline. Sorry, but this is a mess. Doran is such a great character (at least in the novels), this is just disappointing and a waste of a good actor. I’m fine with the other storylines however, you can build on that. And we get the first heavy bookspoiler of season 6at the end (although the secret of the Red Woman is/was a well-known theory which is apparently correct).
The North Remembers,
There’s not a chance that they will kill Tyrion like that. Not a chance. Quentyn was a disposable character who should have never been introduced in the books. Tyrion is far moire important character, and there is literally no reason to kill him in such a manner.
Winterfell
I like the moment when Ramsay reminisced about Myranda – perhaps the only person in the world who both knew and “appreciated” him, sick as that sounds. I know that Ramsay’s a monster, but it’s good when the show reminds us that he isn’t in full grinning sadist mode every waking second of the day. He has reasons for why he is the way he is, and even monsters want to be understood. What they had wasn’t quite true love, but it was a twisted kind of bond. Given that Myranda was a character who worked in close proximity to Ramsay for three seasons, it was nice to have Ramsay acknowledge her as something more than collateral damage of Sansa and Theon’s escape.
That being said, I also appreciate that the show didn’t let that moment linger, and had Ramsay end his vigil for his lover by telling Maester Wolkan to feed her body to the hounds. His “sentimentality” only extends so far.
Roose saying that he would “reward the man” who killed Stannis Baratheon was a nice little moment of irony. We also get another instance of Roose reminding Ramsay of how tenuous his position is with a potential new heir on the way. Ramsay actually seems somewhat contrite and humbled in this particular moment, but I doubt that’s going to last.
The North
I said this when the clip was released, but I love the music during the scene when Sansa and Theon are running through the forest, fleeing Ramsay’s hounds. It’s nerve-wracking, and the cinematography in those scenes was gorgeous. Well-directed by Jeremy Podeswa. I loved the aerial shots of them stumbling through the frozen and desolate landscape, and the wide shot of the two huddled under the tree in each other’s arms. The scene could have ended there … but that convention was subverted when the Bolton hunters descended on them seconds later.
I’ve seen some people wondering what happened to the hounds. I think were supposed to infer that they were killed offscreen, or that they fled once their handlers were killed. Knowing how sensitive people get about animal deaths, I don’t blame the show for not showing Brienne driving her sword through some dogs. It’s not necessary.
Brienne saving Sansa from the Bolton hunters and then pledging her loyalty was just wonderful. The fact that they used almost exactly the same wording that Brienne used to swear fealty to Catelyn in “A Ghost of Harrenhal” made my heart sing. At long last, Brienne has found someone worthy of her service!
It was a nice parallel to the scene when Sansa turns Brienne away in Season 5 as well … and it looks like Brienne will be telling Sansa about encountering Arya next week! Sansa knows that yet another member of her family is alive! 🙂
King’s Landing – Cersei and Jaime
I thought Lena Headey was breathtaking in the scene when she learned about Myrcella’s death. The progression that she goes through in that long shot of her face as she realizes that Jaime is bringing home a corpse rather than their daughter? Amazing. You can write that, but it’s all on Headey. Chalk up another well-deserved Emmy nomination for her. “I thought if I could make something so good, so pure, maybe I’m not a monster.” God, I love her portrayal of this character. My heart broke for her there. And Nikolaj Coster-Waldau killed it as well. Knowing what’s coming in the next episode, I’m looking forward to what we’re getting with Jaime this year.
Interesting to see Cersei openly acknowledge Maggy’s prophecy in this episode, and seem so resigned to it. Given that she winds up choosing violence, I expect that will change. “Fuck prophecy” indeed. Of course, prophecy has no regard for such defiance. I wouldn’t be surprised if that decision directly contributes to Tommen’s death in some way.
King’s Landing – Margaery
I quite enjoyed this scene -it was nice to see Margaery again. That being said, I’m not sure this short check-in needed to be in the premiere. Since the episode was relatively short, perhaps it was included for runtime reasons.
I neglected to mention Septa Unella in my death predictions for the season, but I’m growing ever more convinced that she’s going to meet the hideous end that Cersei promised her sooner rather than later.
And Jonathan Pryce has indeed been added to the opening credits! Nice.
Ghost doesn’t know who is is Jon’s enemy. In the show he is just a wolf. He hung out with Thorne & the others plenty while Jon was away and trusts them plenty.
Ghost was used to hanging out in his kennel – it would have been perfectly normal for a member of the watch to lead him there from time to time. Likely Olly (who is Jon’s squire) or someone else was the one to actually lead Ghost there.
Let me try again.
More than one thing can happen at the same time.
After killing Jon, Thorne and the mutineers woke the rest of the watch and called them to the meeting.
They did not wake up Jon’s closest allies because they didn’t want them at the meeting.
They did not invite Mel or Davos because they aren’t part of the watch and have no business there.
This leaves Davos and Jon’s friends & Ghost alone to find his body.
And Melisandre would have seen that something was up based on people waking up and running around, so she went to find Davos.
There is no problem.
He got stabbed in that scene, then his heart stopped beating between seasons. Cue Ghost beginning to howl near the start of this episode.
k.
LOVED the episode HATED the Sand Snakes…it’s funny because all my non-book reader friends and family had no problem with the Dorne scene lol.
viki,
You are right! D&D should have shown a referendum or why not even elections in Dorne in order to justify the guards apathy to Doran’s murder. They still had 10 more minutes for this. It could work…
TheMannis,
My father loved it too.
looking at various comment sites around the internet and on Twitter, that seems to be the general opinion from non book readers about Dorne: It was fine.
I thought Ellaria said that people view Doran as weak for not avenging Elia and her children. And on top of that he was going to marry House Martell to the granddaughter of Elia’s murderer! This is absolutely valid criticism of Doran.
Praise The Sun,
How about you read my first message that you replied to and think hard what I actually tried to say with it. You are at the moment completely missing my point.
Mihnea,
I have to admit I laughed aloud.
Ravyn,
So you mean to say that the rage and hate is comprised mostly of book readers and normal watchers might actually like it??
Shocking, just shocking good sir.
If that’s the explanation, then it’s a whopping continuity error. Continuity errors are usually things like a character is holding a cup in one hand in one shot, then the other in the adjoining shot. This is actually a major plot point. Maybe D&D weren’t on set that day and the message didn’t filter down to the wardrobe department that that was a big deal. In any case, I’m going with the “Mel didn’t need the necklace in that scene because Selyse is a true believer and the scene was told from her point of view” rationalization.
Flayed Potatoes,
Poisoned I guess!
Ser Not Appearing in this Series,
Oh yes, the idea that the iron throne ceases to matter, or even exist, has certainly crossed my mind before (and no doubt lots of other people’s too) 🙂 My post was really a reply to people saying the Dorne girls are crazy because they are wiping out their own line as the original post I was talking about explained how they are just the latest of many Houses to do exactly that (although it was from before the episode aired). I didn’t explain the thinking very well in my post. It would take a life time to try and find the original again as so much has been posted lately and unfortunately I can’t remember who wrote it either. It was to do with the characters we know in the show and how much has changed since we first met them. In real life they would have plenty of other family members who would gladly claim their titles, but they don’t appear in the show, so for its purposes we have to ignore the possibility and say oh dear no immediate members of House X left, House has effectively ceased to exist.
You sound like you know a bit about ancestry but for the benefit of anyone else who’s interested, here in Europe we have a long and crazy history of exactly this sort of fighting between powerful families. Most of the European royal families are all inter-related as they married each other to consolidate power and wealth, build alliances etc. Here in the UK the line to the throne can be traced to something like 700 places (ie who would get it if the first 699 in line all died tomorrow) with people who are related to the Queen through a common ancestor from 400+ years ago. In fact I think I read some of the cast are (very) distant relatives of royalty. It only tended to be important, wealthy families whose records were ever taken or kept until fairly recently, hence we know all about the Duke of such and such and all their (officially recognised) children from the 14th century but can’t trace ordinary families back much before the 19th.
I don’t understand all this aggravation over the boat. To me, they made it quite clear that Trystane was still on the boat as they showed a shot of it directly before the interior shot of him quite clearly in a chamber that would be on a boat. I’m confused why people couldn’t work out where he was. Secondly, as for the sand snakes being there, I am doubly confused as to what the furore is about. The SS and Ellaria clearly planned Myrcella’s murder and the coup that followed well in advance. The two SS would have been able to get on another ship heading to KL. Though it’s impossible to know the time line of episodes as events as clearly not happening concurrently all the time, it’s safe to assume Trystane was on his shape the following day after the ship arrived in KL. Jaime sails with Myrcella’s body to the shore in the afternoon. That evening (judging by the colour of the sky when he is standing at the window when the bells are ringing) Jaime and Cersein have a heart to heart. Then when Trystane is killed later in the episode it’s full daylight agai, which I image is the following day (would be strange to jump back and forth in time in one location). It really isn’t a massive stretch of the imagination to believe the SS caught up to the ship by the following day – nor is it too difficult to imagine them either sneaking onboard at night. The fact that Trystane wasn’t aware of their coming aboard suggests to me the Dornish guards on his ship were in on the coup, but that could just be my conjecture. I really don’t find it too difficult to piece together and the shock value of it would have been compromised if we saw how they got there in advance. As for the timing with Doran finding out about Myrcella’s death when he does: I can’t imagine they had Ravens on the ship and news only reached him when the ship arrived in King’s Landing.
I have read the books several times and didn’t really have a strong opinion on Dorne. Some elements were interesting (Doran mainly), but I found Arriane terribly Mary-Sue-esque and irritating (Quintyn also I found to be irritating). I am glad they’re not in the show. I don’t particularly have strong opinions about show Dorne either. I remember finding acting of the SS to be over the top, but don’t really object to much else. Show Dorne is just an entirely different entity to book Dorne. I can understand people disliking the differences, but it seems as though lots of people are looking for faults and plot holes where there aren’t any simply to vent how upset they feel at the changes.
All in all, I enjoyed this premiere (my first one after following the off-season here and getting incredibly hyped along with everyone else), but it felt a little rushed in order to return to all those stories that they left in the air at the end of last season. Very much looking forward to next episode!
I agree with what you’re saying, but the show messed up the set up: The scene in the Water Garden was staged like it was immediately following the walk back from the docks in S5. I think everyone was even wearing the same costumes. If they had just staged it differently, maybe with Ellaria and Tyene walking into meet Doran, then the audience would have felt more of a narrative gap.
No, if you look carefully, these were blood hounds, not the attack and kill dogs that Ramsay used for killing the girl in S4 and terrorizing Yara. He wouldn’t set those hounds on Sansa since the idea was to find and return her, not rip her apart. I thought that was pretty obvious.
Brienne got beaten pretty bad during that fight, and she is no superhero….
Mihnea,
As someone who didn’t read the latter books, that’s how I feel. I don’t want to go back to Dorne or the SS, but that has nothing to do with the changes: it’s just the execution – the writing and acting – seems to be from an entirely different show. I don’t really care about Doran and just from reading other comment sites, most non book readers don’t even notice him.
The Dragon Demands,
I think he opens the gate so when he’s defending his treason he can honestly say he followed every one of his Lord Commander’s orders. Following all of the LC’s orders lets him bolster his argument that he cares only about the Night’s Watch
I am pretty convinced that the plot in Dorne is not so useless as it seems (although I personally dislike it).
I think it serves two purposes:
- it gives the Tyrells something to engage (instead of Aegon) so that when Jaime will finally go to Riverrun, King's Landing will be left quite unprotected- it sets up the reason why I think Ellaria will try to support Dany (girl power)
Off course my idea could be tottally wrong but to me it make sense
So where did they go? They are in shot right up until pod falls off his horse, then they are nowhere. Theon kills one of the footsoldiers with the shield in their backs. But the other and the hounds disappeared.
So does anyone think Jon is still coming back? I’m a bit confused.
Ravyn,
I did say most watchers.
And frankly perhaps I didn’t explain it good. Normal watcher as in someone who doesn’t really come to this kind of sites. Just a random person who turns the TV on HBO sunday/monday night to watch the show.
Braavos
A short scene, and one that perhaps could have been delayed a week or two … even if that meant that Arya sat out yet another season premiere. But I liked that we got to see her, and I loved the final shot of the Titan of Braavos looming in the background as Arya knelt beaten and bloody on the cobblestones. That’s the kind of casual background enrichment that the show wouldn’t have been able to do a few seasons ago. Awesome. 🙂
The Dothraki Sea – Jorah and Daario
I hope people will quiet down now about the implausibility of Jorah finding Dany’s ring. Finding the precise location where the Dothraki took her? Sure. But that needed to happen quickly, and as Jorah once said, a Dothraki horde is easy to find. And once they did find it, it went down precisely like I thought it would – the spot where Dany stood was the only circle of green grass around, surrounding by torn and trambled earth where the horde rode around her. It looked like a big target symbol. Much easier to find the ring in that small area.
The Dothraki Sea – Dany
I love Dany’s defiance in the scene with the new Khal. She’s back in Khaleesi mode. And I like Moro already. We’ve already seen that he respects Dothraki traditions, and of course we know that above all the Dothraki follow strength. I think that Dany will eventually be able to win him over with a display of power. Qhono and Ahko, on the other hand? Those two are going to die a fiery death.
The scene where Khal Moro and his bloodriders debate whether or not seeing a naked woman for the first time is among the five best things alive shouldn’t have worked as well as it did, but I found it pretty damn funny.
Meereen
God, it’s great to see Varys and Tyrion together again! And the Red Priests are already in the city. Interesting.
Varys directly stating that the Sons of the Harpy are taking orders from someone makes me believe that we are indeed getting some version of the titular Harpy. Who that might be, I don’t know. I was comfortable with the idea that the Harpy would remain a faceless enemy, but we’ll see. Maybe it’s someone from Yunkai. Maybe it’s someone we haven’t met yet (I like that idea best). Maybe Hizdahr faked his death. I don’t particularly like that theory, but I like it better than others.
The only theory I’ve heard that I actively despise is the idea that it might be Daario. Do not let it be Daario. He’s a foreign sellsword who just arrived in the city, has persistently advocated for the Masters to be exterminated, and fought to defend Dany during the assassination attempt. The idea that he might be secretly exerting such influence a group of ancient families is pretty fucking thin.
I was not expecting Dany’s ships to be burned. Perhaps the show included the Meereenese fleet as a way to cover their bases if they decided not to adapt a certain book storyline. I guess we’ll be seeing a version of that after all.
Yes but after all the hype, they have to drag it out. episode 3 I think
Connor,
Maybe superhero is exaggerated but she still won a fight 2 against 6 (and counting Theon and Pod as one fighter seems fair), beat the Hound and made short work of Jaime (she had much more difficulties in the books). My point is: They turned her into one of the best fighters in Westeros (probably bc they think its really original to have a woman that badass), dropping soldiers like flies but omitted almost all of her inner conflict and insecurities. Makes for a far less interesting character to my taste. That’s all I’m saying
The North Remembers,
Tyrion may be there, but my money is on Grey Worm being toast of the town.
My Unsullied family members’ (who are not nearly as obsessed with GoT as I am) reactions were basically “Cool and surprising scene, but I don’t really care about those people as they barely have any character development.” They don’t hate Dorne, they’re just bored by it. It doesn’t help that the Sand Snakes’ personalities are basically “that girl with the spear, that girl with the whip, and that other girl with nice tits and poison daggers.”
Dear Dan or Dave’s Mom,
Buh-Bye!
The criticism is all valid. The show has taken a dump.
Brienne beat a wounded, exhausted Hound, and an exhausted, bound, Jaimie while she was fully armed. And why is it a problem if they make her one of the best fighters in the series anyway? People readily accept whoever George tells them is the best fighter in the book, with little to no development on their character, but let it be Brienne and suddenly, it’s hard to accept it.
She also has internal struggles too. And I’m positive the Oathbreaker episode will be an explicit dissection of her ethical struggles.
Kamali,
I didn’t use the word “problem” and neither did I say it’s hard to accept. I think I used words like “less interesting” and “to my taste”
SnowmanTheJimmy,
I think you’re just expecting too much to be made explicit, as far as this is concerned, when it’s not necessary.
There was no need to mention Trystane in order to assert Jaime’s vengeful mindset. Especially since Trystane was going to be murdered a couple of scenes later anyway.
We will no doubt see first hand in the coming episodes exactly how Jaime goes about showing Cersei that he will defend his family and exact revenge.
It doesn’t even have to be that. People are assuming it’s the necklace and the necklace alone that keeps her young, but that’s not what Mel or the scene itself says. I read the scene as Mel was simply shedding all of the lies and illusions because her faith has been shattered. The necklace was just the last thing she took off. Her potions also got put into focus by the camera in that scene, so they could be equally or more important in keeping her young.
Did anyone else think that the hug from Theon was the first genuine embrace Sansa has felt since the last time she was hugged by Ned? Literally this poor girl hasn’t felt a caring human touch in years.*
*I’m discluding the Tyrells because they do care for her, but have ulterior motives.
Davos said
I doubt it. Davos is in a lot of scenes in the trailer, out of Castle Black, probably with real Jon.
Chad Brick,
How do you know how many men they sent to find his wife? This was just one of presumably several search parties.
And who are these soldiers meant to signal with their horns? They’re in the middle of nowhere. Goodness knows where the next search party or any other Bolton soldiers are in the vast North.
Anyway, all they’re faced with a is an unarmed girl and a eunuch. I don’t think they expected too much trouble in bringing them in. No need to sound the alarm seeking reinforcements.
I’m unsullied and don’t have any preconceived expectations about any of the story lines other than what’s happened in previous seasons. As such, the Dorne story looks to me like a build up for Ellaria to confront Cersei (girl fight! plus the franken-Mountain…). I don’t know. It just seems like the natural direction considering the past events on the show.
Also, it would be more difficult than usual to pick up their scent/tracks anyway, considering there are probably thousands of dead bodies outside of Winterfell and hundreds of thousands of track marks in the snow.
Finally … Dorne.
The deaths of Doran, Areo, and Trystane were spoiled for me by the leakers before this episode aired (as was Melisandre’s glamour). I wasn’t pleased, but because learning things out of their proper context is never ideal. On the flip side, it gave me time to acclimate to the idea. Overall, I’m fine with it. Knowing how many people felt about Dorne after Season 5, I was most worried about the backlash among the online hardcore fandom, and how unpleasant it would be to endure. As I expected, it’s been hot and bothered, yet I’ve shielded myself from the worst of it. I haven’t even gone to the book-centric websites, obviously, other than a brief peak at the ASOIAF Reddit. God knows what fresh hell is being unleashed in those corners.
Many non-book reader reactions I’ve seen seem to be more positive. They were happy to see the Sand Snakes take action. Obviously they don’t have the same sentimental attachment to Doran that certain book readers do.
Look, this wasn’t the direction that I was hoping that the story in Westeros’s southernmost kingdom would go. Alexander Siddig is a great actor, and he was obviously underused as Doran. I was hoping that he would get more to do in Season 6 and that he would take over the central role in that story from Ellaria (I think Benioff and Weiss really like Indira Varma’s performance, which is why she’s become the main character in Dorne, as well as the only main cast member. I like Varma a lot … but Ellaria’s worn pretty thin for me as a character. She can die any time now). Oh well.
That being said, seeing Doran as a genuine man of piece who wanted to keep his people out of a destructive war makes him a rather tragic figure in my eyes. I agree with Luka Nieto – I appreciate the beat where we see Doran’s supposedly loyal guards standing around watching him die. Even if he had grand plans, he never shared them with anyone, and the anger of his people was well-established. You can’t be a master player if you don’t keep an eye on all of the pieces, particularly the pawns. Neglecting his people’s wishes cost him dearly.
Areo Hotah was window dressing, which is a shame given how enthusiastic DeObia Operai was about the show (though Hotah is unspeakably bland in the books as well, even if he gets one good action scene). Being stabbed in the back by Tyene is a rough way for him to go, but it wouldn’t have bothered me if he’d been developed more. Even the greatest warriors can fall that way.
Trystane was never really developed as a character – either in the show or the books. I’m much less sorry to see him go. But hey, the Sand Snakes actually did something! That’s more than their literary counterparts can say! (And I don’t mind them being on the boat. Clearly they took a second ship and trailed Jaime and company to the capital. That wasn’t hard to figure out. I didn’t need to see it).
SquisherKing,
Absolutely. That’s what gave it extra resonance.
I had hoped that she would share such an embrace with Jon when she finally runs into him. They’ve both been without any family for so long. They still might have such a scene.
But both Theon and Sansa were undoubtedly sharing the most genuine moment of comfort and tenderness either of them has experienced in years.
Bear in mind that in previous seasons Theon kept expressing how he was never treated as part of the family by the Starks, before later recognising that they were in fact the only family he’d really ever had.
In this moment he finally gets to express his affection for the family that he’d only realised he had when it was too late.
KG,
Is Grey Worm 1 of the characters that are send to be held captive during the wedding? I know that Daario was one of them in the books, can’t remember if Grey Worm was sent with him
CatspawAssassin,
I’m ashamed to say tha your comment about the wheelchair on the stairs made me laugh. It’s practically the only thing they could have done to make that scene worse. I’m now imagining Doran as OJ Simpson in the Naked Gun when he goes hurtling down the stairs and over the barrier in the baseball stadium.
Really enjoyed this episode other than the Dornish tragedy. It’s such a great TV show and I genuinely have very few issues with any of the changes made by the show runners, apart from Dorne. Even as this season started I was more than willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and see where they went with Dorne but Doran’s murder just seemed so odd as a scene in its own right and within the wider context of the show. Maybe I was still thinking of him as he is in the books but I had presumed that this season we would see that all of his caution towards the Lannisters was simply a screen for some deep and intricate plot which would be revealed this season. Like Sue above, my first thought on seeing Doran’s death was that this was surely not what was originally planned for him. The scene suggested to me that the writers have had second thoughts about Dorne and have decided to do something else completely with it, something which will see it feature a lot less in the show. Poor Alexander Siddig. He was easily the best thing to come out of Dorne last year. Surely that couldn’t have been what the show runners had planned for his character when they signed him up to the show. It does seem such an odd decision to get rid of him so suddenly and so unceremoniously. And what about the great Areo Horath’s even more embarrassing death? He didn’t even get a line in season 6 before he was face down in the Dornish dirt with a teenage girl’s My Little Dagger in his back.
Don’t want to dwell on the negatives though. I’m more than happy with how the other parts of the story are progressing. That final scene with Mel was tremendous. So well executed. Gives me a shiver just thinking about it. Looking forward to watching the episode again tonight.
Kamali,
That’s a very good point. Search parties were no doubt sent in all directions.
Of course, this casts more doubt on how Brienne would have happened to keep track of the correct search party.
However, some mild suspension of disbelief shouldn’t be an issue in a show like this.
In retrospect, the revelation that Benioff and Weiss originally planned to cut Dorne entirely before Cogman pitched the Jaime, Bronn, and Myrcella angle explains a lot. It’s clear that Dorne isn’t endgame material. What happens next is a question of priorities.
Myrcella’s death will have important implications for the rest of the story, so the show needed to tie up Dorne’s end of it in this premiere somehow. This way was bloody and obviously didn’t work for many, but at least it removed some extraneous pieces from the board. There’s actually a scenario in which I could see this being the final scene in Dorne, at least for a while. If the show wants to wash its hands of the entire subplot, they now have the opportunity to do so.
I was one of the people who thought that Dorne would wind up supporting Dany once she arrived, and that perhaps Varys would be the one to broker the alliance. But I actually think that Doran’s assassination lessens the chances that we’ll see Dorne rise up and actively support Dany. I don’t think Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are that politically savvy. Perhaps they’ll be content with killing Myrcella and those they saw as appeasing the Lannisters. If they get their war, we don’t need to see it. Leave the vipers in their nest.
I’m going to say some not very nice things about the Dornish subplot in the novels here (under spoiler tags, for those who don’t care to read).
Before Season 5, I was enthusiastic for Dorne because I hoped that the show might take certain cool archetypes and do something more worthwhile with them. To that end, I sympathize with the disappointments regarding how the characters that we did get in the show were used. But for me, that disappointment does not and will never extend to pining for Arianne, Quentyn, Arys, and *shudder* Darkstar, To that, I say no thank you. Hard fucking pass.
For as much as people have grown to mythologize the “Dornish master plan”, I think it is a complete and utter joke. Doran’s cool speech fortells … what? That he sent his son Quentyn to woo Dany … but Quentyn fails miserably and gets roasted. Then what? It looks like Dorne may pivot to support fAegon … but fAegon is a painfully obvious red herring who is only going to make things in the Seven Kingdoms even worse for a while before he dies. Tying Arianne to him ties Dorne to a sinking ship … one that can’t sink fast enough in my view. Who knows what the Sand Snakes will do in TWOW, but when they take action, it will be the first and only interesting thing that they’ve ever done on the page.
TL;DR – I think Dorne is a mess in the novels, and will ultimately amount to nothing. The show had a theoretical opportunity to improve it. They didn’t, and it’s clear that it was never a priority. I would not be sorry to leave it behind in either medium. With the endgame drawing near, there are more important storylines we need to focus on.
I hated Dorne. Child killing kinslayers aren’t doing much for Oberyn’s memory. Maybe he should have spent less time in the brothel and more time teaching his kids.
But I’m not letting this spoil everything else for me, since I loved every other scene. Specially the ending: Melisandre removing the necklace felt like a gothic horror story. I loved it.
One last observation about Dorne is that if we are going to spend any more time there, they really need to flesh out the kingdom with some more heavily populated scenes. The Water Gardens look amazing but the constant focus on them makes it seem like there’s about ten people in total in the whole of Dorne….actually eight now!
I’ve noticed Podeswa is best at atmosphere, and at his worst in action scenes.
I had the same thought, since they often like to have a single thematic thread run through a single episode. I’m sure it also refers to Jamie and possibly others.
The Dorne story line doesn’t bother me in the slightest. I’m pretty indifferent about it in the show, but at least I didn’t have to slog through hundreds of pages of text to see nothing of consequence. We all know Myrcella is going to die in the books. At least we didn’t have to deal with the ear situation first.
Speaking of Blackstar– the little girl ear cutter..
I’m starting to wonder if the most dangerous man in Dorne will fill the power vacuum with the help of Ellaria and the snakes.
How is Tyrion going to free the dragons next episode? What are they going to do all season?
House Applebee,
Well, things doesn’t happen at the same time in the books and neither in the show. Danaerys pick at the very same moment it end last season, The Wall and Winterfell storyline at the next morning and a significance amount of time has pass in Dorne and King’s Landing, enough time for Jamey and Bronn to reach the capital, Cersei’s hair to grow and te Sand’s Snake to get to King’s Landing.
How is Trystane’s biography a “confusing mess”. It says exactly what happened. He was killed by the Snakes while docked outside KL. Was Jaime supposed to just waltz him into KL with a dead Myrcella?
Bronn wasn’t shown to be in the capital though…
Just occurred to me that the Meerneese R’hllor priests speech about
OT: Were there write ups in past seasons regarding the preview for next weeks episode? If not could that become a Thing?
Bran the Muffin,
Blackstar.. Darkstar.. whatever..
crimethink,
7. I usually take a nap when I feel tired in the middle of the day. Very old people usually take more naps during the day.
I haven’t seen anyone complain about Jorah finding the ring anymore 🙂
The first thing I thought of when I saw the trampled circle: I get it now. It should have been obvious!
Did you really predict this? I must have missed that. I was surprised.
I just love the plot hole hunters. It’s a weird amusing kind of side show.
crimethink,
If you think that your “continuity errors” make any sense then you are the king of your own thinking. I would say that you can not understand a visual narrative unless it makes clear what is happening in every single scene. It is very anal.
Having now watched it twice, I am mellowed out a bit but Sue, your recap is spot-on. Everything I felt watching it is echoed in your recap. Great job!
Ok, so I am remembering the scene with Melly Sanders in the bath and talking to Selyse about her potions and pointing out one that I think made the wearer irresistible to their intended target. Poor Selyse asks “Did you use that one with Stannis?” and she’s so weak and vulnerable and hopeful in that moment and Mel’s just like “Nope, sorry.” Poor Selyse! She wanted to believe that her noble Stannis had to be tricked into being with Melisandre AND HE WAS, just not with that particular potion. Magical semantics!
People are getting so ill about the reviews/comments of this episode. Did it not occur to you that some people would likely love the episode and others might hate it? There are few episodes where it seems like everyone loved them (Hardhome being one of the obvious exceptions). Everyone should relax a bit and allow those who loved it to love it and those who had quibbles to talk about them. We all love the show and just want it to be great – I am glad that some of you had that experience last night but it doesn’t mean that those of us who didn’t are wrong.
I really liked how Tyrion see’s the religious people and instantly says “oh this is gonna be a problem” where as Cersei saw them and naively thought she could control fanatics. Great touches like that
HunterMac87,
Yeah, that was a great moment that showed how different they are.
Umm, Hardhome is not the obvious exception but I am sure everyone knew what I meant oops!
Jack Bauer 24,
Perhaps he doesn’t? Could go have a look at them and think Woah, Meereen is not quite ready for that! and leave it for a while. Or maybe he does and they fly away? Dany and Drogon aren’t around so why would the other two stay in a place where they were the animal equivalent of prisoners? Most wild animals would make a run/fly for it in those circumstances to somewhere that felt safe. They can reappear later when they’ve found their D&D.
Edit: no idea if this is covered in the books in any way? Not really au fait with that part of the story at all so total guess work on my part.
I love Oberyn but the Dorne storyline is just a joke and a huge mistake. They should have either omitted it completely or follow more closely the book storyline. Like, what is even the point of it in the show? Areo was useless, Doran looked like his lifegoal was to be on good terms with whoerev sits on the Iron Throne, Arianne, as a potential wife and a player, was omitted, same goes for Quentyn. And we got three try-hard Xena wannabes acting like 13 years old girls, whose purpose is apparently to flash out their boobs and say the most basic lines the writer could come up with. Although they are supposed to be great fighters, one handed Jaime had little problems with defending himself against one of them. Like… Dorne = the definition of failure.
I like it! It’s possible they set this up with the last scene. I think I read this before, but it seems a little more probable now. This certainly would be a twist on the whole Jon is dead but we know he has a role to play situation.
I don’t think this will happen, because it seems like to much of screwing around with viewers expectations, but it would be an interesting possibility.
Connor,
He was not looking at the blood. He was looking at all the footprints. He knew this was not the act of a lone assassin, but a large group of men.
TheSnarkAtWinterfell,
They decided to avoid the whole of the Dornish plot to restore the Targaryens, and instead have replaced it with a quest for vengeance.
Either way, we get a war with Dornc. Either way, we get a new reason for the Tyrells and Lannisters to double down on their alliance. Either way, the armies of the South are too busy to concentrate too much on the remaining River Lords and to be prepared for the Knights of the Vale — wherever they may ultimately fall.
And they sure as hell aren’t prepared for the Iron Born.
I think you are both mistaken, Davos wasn’t looking at the blood at all. He was looking at the **footprints in the snow ** on the blood and near the body. Those footprints showed that this was not the work of a lone assassin. Jon Snow was killed by a whole gang of men. That’s what he was looking at.
If this happens, then what is the point of the Tower of Joy this season? And why have Bran see it in his vision? And what was the point in having Jon kill that White Walker and to have the Night King himself see him do that, leading the Night’s Watch brothers to defend the gate from the Wights, and to have to have that badass staredown at the end of the episode? All of that foreshadowing about his parentage all these seasons, all of that would have been for nothing, at all.
I certainly did. When I saw the sword on the ground, I was hoping he would pick it up, thus continuing his transformation back into Theon. There were so many little moments like that in the episode I really enjoyed…the two Dothraki men listing off things better than seeing a beautiful woman naked, hearing “Dolorous” before Edd, Tryion screwing up Valyrian…lots of little things. There were lots of big things I found great about the episode, too.
No, I don’t think so. Jon is coming back
But STANNIS? That is a different matter entirely.
I do believe that Stannis will walk the Walls of Winterfell as someone under a glamour spell. Davos perhaps, or Tormund. Why that ruse will be necessary or convenient has yet to be shown but my guess is that it will be a ruse to trick Roose, Ramsay or more probably — Littlefinger.
This is essentially a re-work of the plot device from ADwD where there is a glamour cast upon Mance Rayder. In this version, the glamour doesn’t hide a Dead King, but is instead used to make a Dead King appear alive.
And that is why the last scene and uncloaking of Melisandre’s glamour illusion power was revealed. They showed us it was possible so they could establish it for use as a plot device later.
Basically, through Mel, we already know what’s going to happen. What we don’t know is why.
It would be tough to do perfectly, but they also did a good job of having Allen handle the sword as if he could not properly grasp it. He was using way more palm than you (ordinarily) would want to use: but if you are missing fingers, then that is how you’d have to do it.
People are freaking out over the Dorne storyline, but I am REALLY concerned about Jon. If Mel can glamour this well, this means, Jon could really be dead and she will glamour someone else to look like him. UGH. OR like someone above mentioned, we could see him alive only in Mel’s visions. Double UGH. Honestly if Jon isnt really himself, and just an animated wright/ghost, I will lose emotional investment in this story. Even the TOJ story will diminish its importance in my eyes. LOST was ruined for me by its crappy last season…..I pray the same doesnt happen to GOT.
Lol only GoT can make you feel sorry for a child murderer (Melisandre) and make you hate a kid (Olly) who’s family was murdered by the people Jon Snow hadallied with.
But that is almost certainly going to dovetail into restoring the Targaryens. The Dornish almost certainly will be extending an arm to Daenrys now. (I had thought that Ellaria would be fleeing to a Targaryen after assassinating Myrcella: but this might be even better than that.)
Yeah, if magic is like a sword without a hilt, then religion is like a red-hot sword covered in poison without a hilt. Still, it is a possible weapon.
More probably, Trystane himself thought it safer to remain on board until he knew what his reception would be like. He might also have been waiting for word to get back and forth to his father before deciding what to do. There are any number of explanations: but Cersei’s reputation has to be pretty well established by now.
What to do with Jaime in Season 5 was always going to be a big problem. The Crows Riverland material would have been a cinematic slow-death: the Red Wedding resolved that plotline, and belaboring it was kicking a dead horse.
I know that I would have cut the Riverlands. Of course, I would have cut Dorne without thinking about it again. To that end, I am not sure what I would have done with Jaime last year: they had to get in his “watch me Stop Being the Eldest Son and be Tywin The Second… err, Wait, sorry, Seems that I have a Soul” contribution somehow. Was trying to get Myrcella back into the fold the best way to do it? Well, it’s better than any ideas I’ve read or conceived myself.
NO.
For a split second I too worried that this reveal of Mel’s glamouring powers would lead to her impersonating Jon (or someone else to impersonate him). Then I did think about the sheer amount of work GRRM and D&D have put into building up his character (along with everything that is yet to come this season with the Tower of Joy and also the whole “I ask him to show me Azor Ahai and all I see is Snow…” build-up), and I think it would just be inpossib to bring him back as an illusion. What would be the point in showing his backstory? Bran is going to witness this and it’s only going to be worthwhile if he is somehow (through dreams or weirwoods) able to convey this information to Jon. Otherwise, that information is for he reader/viewer only as who else would he convey this info to and for what purpose? Bran’s discovering Jon’s origins is proof that Jon is coming back as Jon (in my opinion).
I do like what a pp mentioned about the glamouring being set up as a plot point for someone else in the future though.
The issue is not even so much if the criticism is valid, but whether it is how people would feel. Quite frankly, I think that it is. People can say all they want that Oberyn died in a fair fight: but how many times in history have people hankered for “revenge” against a fair loss? Uncounted times. And Doran has suffered this not once, but twice to his family. What would have let Doran avoid the War of 5 Kings is that the Dornish would blame both the Lannisters and the Baratheons.
Now, it probably is true that Doran knows Dorne’s strength better than do most of the people complaining. However, peoples have always believed that their armies could rise to the challenges, that their foes were weaker than they are, etc.
But, at this point, I would be fine with them largely cutting the Dornish plotline to just setting them up to support Daeny’s return. In fact, I think that it would be very much for the best.
Jared,
I think the easiest thing for Dorne to become is a war for Cersei to deal with early next season. Something for her to deal with before Dany arrives. Just like Euron will probably be something for Dany to deal with before she can touch down in King’s Landing.
Bonus if Olenna makes a deal with Ellaria and Varys this season. If anyone can build this coalition, it’s she.
You use the best actors you can (= “available” and “affordable”) for any and all of your parts, no matter how small. Actors themselves do not deserve time: it’s the characters they play that do. If you have the good fortune to cast good actors for incidental characters (such as Siddig for Doran), then unless you suddenly see a way to build them into something more, you just get a really good performance in a small role. And that’s just fine.
DanTheMan,
Wasnt bran like a 100 feet or so from jon during the mutineers episode?
The problem with Dorne isn’t about including/excluding it. It’s the execution. It all feels rushed and not properly set up, and the acting is campy, at best. (Note: I had some of these same issues with the S1 Dothrakis)
Wimsey,
Yeah, I wasn’t keen on seeing Jaime slog through his AFFC material, liberating minor strongholds in a defeated kingdom while suffering through internal angst about Cersei’s infidelity and the need to live up to his father’s formidable legacy. I’m very glad that Jaime’s Riverlands storyline was delayed to this season so that they could incorporate relevant climactic material from TWOW.
I maintain that sending Jaime to rescue Myrcella was a worthwhile idea. I actually liked everything in Dorne related to Jaime himself – both his banter with Bronn and especially him trying to come to terms with the complicated feelings he has about Myrcella being his daughter. Those scenes work well, I think. I absolutely adore the tender moment that the two share on the boat where Myrcella acknowledges and accepts him as her father, right before she passes away. I thought that scene was wonderful, and worked perfectly, even with the tragic end.
Effectively, Dorne became window dressing for a nice Jaime story, and it worked out that way because that’s where Myrcella was sent. Ultimately, the Dornish characters there proved to be more trouble than they were worth because their own book storyline amounts to essentially nothing, and what little it does amount to is irrelevant in the grand scheme of the show. If Myrcella had been sent somewhere else back in Season 2 – the Eyrie, the Iron Islands, the Reach, etc. – the exact same Jaime story could have been told in that location, with different characters in the background.
There is a huge difference between what Mel is doing and a classic “glamour.” Mel is not looking like someone else, and she is not simply altering her appearance. Her entire physiology is altered: she goes from decrepit crone to young woman with this spell. She’s not looking like someone else: she is becoming herself as she was years and years ago.
In the books, there is a proper glamour that comes up: but it is purely an illusion. Moreover, the illusion is maintained in part by attachment to something identified with the person who’s appearance is being faked: and the illusion grows false without it. However, there is no indication that the glamoured person suddenly gains the physical aspects of that person: they still have to deliberately walk, talk, etc., like that other person. An ancient old woman looking like a young woman would still walk like a crone.
This is some new magic to which we have not been introduced. It’s essentially a Dorian Gray spell: you are youthful while it is on, and your proper age when it is not on. Mel can use it to be young: but it would be different magic yet again for her to look like someone else. And as they have not introduced “false identify” glamouring onto the show yet, it is a bit late for them to do so.
Jared,
Yeah, I can see this. But given that, knifing Dorne early this season (literally and figuratively) probably is the best way to go. They can now get lined up behind Daeny. Huzzah for the good guys….
Rushed? I would say that it bordered on dragging. And what was not properly setup? We heard about Elia over and over. We heard over and over that the Dornish people wanted revenge for Elia and Oberyn. And: lo! It turns out that it was true. It did happen quickly in the end: but, then, so do all coupes when you are not in on the plot.
The acting is fine. The Dornish simply are a people with particular mannerisms: it is no more campy than real people are with such mannerisms. After all, to such peoples. the English and Americans seem very stilted: and would you criticize someone playing an proper Englishman for rangeless acting when he is playing a rangeless part?
Well, here are my brief thoughts:
In my opinion, it was a good premiere. Nowhere close to the Two Swords, but better than The Wars to Come and Winter is Coming, especially considering that premieres are usually not my favorite episodes.
The highlights: Everything with Davos. And I liked that ser Alliser managed to get most of the Night’s Watch to his side. That way, he still remains a grey character and not a full villain.
Sansa’s scenes were great as well, especially the hug and her speech to Brienne. On a side note, I really like the fact that Sophie Turner is now credited individually.
Least favorite: Trystane’s death. It was very rushed. A couple lines about Myrcella’s death would help. On a positive note, this was the first time I wasn’t annoyed by Obara.
Biggest shock: Dorne. I really DID NOT see that coming. And on the other hand, it really made sense. When Doran got the letter, I was sure Ellaria would be arrested. When Areo was stabbed, I was sure the soldiers would overpower Tyene. But the soldiers… just watched their leader bleed out to death, the leader they despised so much. This was an excellent addition to Dornish storyline. My only complaint is that Alexander Siddig and DeObia Oparei were very underused. I really liked Siddig’s interpretation of Doran, which was more sinister and less weak than his book counterpart. But at the end, he was still weak. And it’s a pity that we haven’t seen Areo in combat.
The verdict: 8/10. On my ranklist, I would (currently) put it on rank 31, before Walk of Punishment (rank 32) and after The Pointy End (rank 30).
Side note: I see that a certain GoT Wikia administrator has already written some huge rant articles about Dorne and Jon on the episode’s main page. I’m glad I’m not editing it anymore.
I’m sure this has probably been said in the 700 comments already in this thread, but I’m being super duper careful about no spoilers no speculation no casting news whatever, so zooming by it.
BUT, was a bit confounded by the Doran assassination until this morning when I thought, ‘wait there’s no way he could be a secret Targayren supporter with no (f)Aegon.’ Dorne obviously hasn’t been secretly backing Dany.
Without that subplot, Doran really is a do nothing leader. And, actors cost big $. So might as well kill off loose ends.
Was it well executed, ehhhhh. Hard for book readers to like it but I know my wife has loved the sand snakes and other unsullied I know seemed to like it so hey. I’ll just reread last 2 books to get my ASOIAF Dorne fix.
Yaga,
They areNOT Martells. Ellaria never married Oberyn, and the Sand Snakes are bastards. Not even royal bastard where both their parents aare royal, just bastards.
Wimsey,
Will you ever admit that D&D messed up? It’s unbelievable for anyone to even TRY to defend how the writers not only misinterpreted the entire DORNE plot line, but rushed it, and completely ruined it too.
I give them credit where it’s due, and I’m still expecting this season to be great overall (hopefully), but what could have been the best opening episode of any season, was completely destroyed by a few key moments and plot holes.
Seriously, if they wanted to end the story-line after everyone complaining about it last season because of how much they messed it up (understandable), they SHOULD have done it differently and devoted more time to it.
Lord Parramandas,
LOL. He already did?
Mustafa. S.,
Just looking at this thread it’s clear that not everyone thought it was ”ruined”.
Hell I even see people who said they liked it.
To some, D&D messed up, to some they did not – difference of opinions 😉
I forgot to add something: I like the fact that Jon wasn’t ressurected in first episode. Honestly, I have no idea when or if it will happen.
As always, well said.
I missed the revelation that D&D planned to cut Dorne. In retrospect, I wish they had.
I still think there is a chance that Dorne supports the Targaryen invasion. Not quite sure how that would be depicted since – as you say – Ellaria isn’t politically savvy. Also, I don’t think that they will be content with killing Myrcella, especially with two Sand Snakes in KL. Tommen needs to watch his back.
Deesensfan,
Just wait for the twitter recap.
Last year their reaction to the scene they introduced the Sand Snakes was mostly ”they are badass!’.
It will be the same here. Seriously I just watched the episode with 6 friends at my place, all unsullied, their reaction was mostly:”awesome”.
“It’s a sad fucking statement when Dolorous Edd is our only chance.”
Finally they nickname-droped the Dolorous Edd !
There’s clearly a time gap between where S5 ended on the docks, and where S6 picks up in the Water Gardens (as we see from the message Doran receives and the two SS suddenly in KL), but the way it was staged makes it look like everyone is just walking back from the docks as a continuation of the end of S5. They’re even wearing the same costumes, I think (or very similar). To have set this up properly, all they needed was to re-stage it where Ellaria and Tyene aren’t walking with Doran and maybe coming to meet him. They could have started with Doran getting the message, frankly,, and summoning the women. It seems like a small thing,but it just wasn’t set up right and, yes, felt rushed.
Well, you can take popcorn breaks whenever anything other than the Wall, Winterfell and King’s Landing come up this season. 😉 Especially because I think there will be quite a bit more Dorne to come (which is more interesting now to me than in Season 5 with Jaime and Doran there). But I’ also afraid that you may be disappointed with The Wall and Winterfell by the time the season comes to an end. All good; I’m here for the collective hair-tearing. 🙂
Jons background and parentage could play an important role, even if it’s just someone pretending to be Jon. We don’t know what part that knowledge plays. Especially if the viewer is left in the dark about Jon being not the real one.
As I said, I don’t think it’s likely, only possible and it can possibly be made interesting. But toying with viewers in that way would need a huge payoff to balance that out, and I can’t really think of one.
But that’s why I love the show. They constantly come up with stuff that is even better then anything anyone expects.
A resurrection with a revenge from the grave isn’t really a story by itself either, at least not one I expect from this show. I can’t really make sense of a resurrected Jon. Why would he have to die first to then do whatever he does? His death has to add something to the story.
I’m calling it… Mel glamours Arya to be Jon…
So the guards insisted on continuing to King’s Landing despite the murder of Myrcella? What if Trystane ordered them otherwise? If I were Trystane, I would have gone back to Dorne immediately. If I arrived in King’s Landing, I’d be at the mercy of the Lannisters.
And once Jaime was in King’s Landing, why didn’t the Lannisters send men to arrest Trystane (the most valuable hostage they had). Or at least surround his ship with Lannister ships to make sure he didn’t escape?
Daenerys says she will never have any children, “until the sun rises in the West and sets in the East”. But that part of the prophecy was never said in the show 🙁
Tomigreyjoy,
Power resides where people believe it resides. If the Sand Snakes declare themselves to be Martells, get enough people behind themselves, and crush the opposition, then they will be Martells.
Tywin of the Hill,
S1 it was but briefly.
In the books, Quentyn Martell goes to free the dragons. He starts to bond with one of them (since he has a little bit of Targ blood in him — the Martells and Targs inter-married about a century earlier) but is flame-roasted by the other one and dies of his wounds. The two dragons escapes and were flying around at the end of AFFC/ADWD. This happens after Danys leaves Meereen on the back of Drogon.
Tywin of the Hill,
Perhaps Jaime and Trystane had already agreed to seek justice for Myrcella together, in which case there would be no need to arrest him… yet.
And the Martell ship is anchored in the harbour at King’s Landing. The Crown / Lannister fleet would have control over Blackwater Bay. That ship wasn’t going anywhere.
I know, right? If only Jon when LC had thought to command Thorne never to murder him, but we could have avoided FTW altogether.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Go to the game of owns thread.
There someone linked a article from makingofgameofthrones.com where you can see the letter Doran got. It explains Jaime’s reaction preaty well.
Yaga,
What? If they declare themselves Martell? That’s not how it works. How is the whole country supposed to follow a bunch of kinslayers who ended the dinasty they owed their life and freedom to? Dorne feels so small, there are no bannermen apparently, no one who would take the Martells place as ruling house in Dorne.
You make good points and if we were going by glamouring the way it is performed in the books, then I would very much agree with you. However, as we have been told many times over, the show and the book are diverging. What if glamouring in the show carries more power than in the books and enables the disguised person to physically take on properties of the person they are pretending to be. We don’t know what Mel looked like as a young woman, so we cannot say this is her own youthful image with any certainty. I do agree that glamouring oughtn’t change the way a person is able to move, as I have only seen it in the books, but on the show, who knows what is possible?
Having said all that, I don’t think Mel is going to impersonate Jon Snow or use her powers to enable someone else to do so. It wouldn’t make any sense in light of his extensive prior and ongoing character development.
Mihnea,
Thanks for that. I thought that Jaime still might have kept Trystane in King’s Landing as a hostage, even if he didn’t let Cersei get her vengeful hands on him.
But I figured Jaime’s response would not have been to immediately arrest or kill Trystane either way. He’d know that the best way to get to Ellaria would be through Doran.
Tomigreyjoy,
It work because there are no rules now.
It’s also clear that the people are disgusted by Doran’s inaction, so I think it’s safe to say they won’t mind that they killed him.
What plot holes were in the episode?
A plot hole is defined as: A logical inconsistency within a story. Such inconsistencies include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.
By definition, if you can explain how something happened, it’s not a plot hole. It might be poorly structured or explained, but it’s not a plot hole.
The Sand Snakes suddenly appearing on Trystane’s ship is not a plot hole, as it can be explained away. Melandrise’s appearance changing when she removes the red necklace (when she kept her appearance sans necklace in an earlier episode) is not a plot hole, as there are other possible explanations as to why this was the case. Brienne finding Sansa and Theon is not a plot hole, as one can come up with an explanation as to how Brienne did so.
So what plot holes were present in this episode?
His death officially releases him from his Night’s Watch vows, and allows him to go south to unite the North.
And also a means to signify him as the subject of the whole Azor Ahai/Prince that was promised prophecy by having him reborn in smoke and salt.
Josh L.,
Things I don’t like = plot holes.
But I gave up a long time ago in expecting people to know what a plot-hole is.
To me it just lost all meaning.
Kraznys,
Most people I know thought the Dorne part was one of the best parts of the episode, though most are non-book readers. As a book reader, I was saddened that we won’t get more of those two actors and it definitely felt like a “reset button,” but I think it was needed and I liked the action and am excited for what will happen going forward. I imagine this part will deviate heavily from whatever GRRM has in plan for Dorne in the books (it kind of already has).
Mihnea,
She asks Mirri when will Drogo be as he was. Mirri replies “When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves.”
That is the same line as the novels, with the omission of “When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child“, which is the line which Dany was referring to in this episode.
Nero Martell,
A Man is seen grabbing Arya’s stick during her training with the Waif in the coming next week segment. Hopefully this means a Girl will get a roof over her head and food in her belly.
Simatian,
My father was cheering. He really didn’t like Doran…..
I was just stunned. I didn’t see that coming. I liked it, but I was unable to express it right then.
That’s possible but not a great plot point. I don’t think there is any precedent on dead people and their lifelong vows, so this is really irrelevant to most. It would only matter what Jon himself thinks about this. And it’s not at all obvious that a resurrected Jon would think that he can do whatever now. I can’t really see this play out in a fun way, though I guess it’s possible. But that wouldn’t be a great use of a death either way. Dying just to make yourself believe that’s a loophole to get around a vow? What does that say about Jon if that’s his reasoning? I don’t really know.
The prophecy plot would be even worse, because that’s total cliche. Salt and smoke? That doesn’t even make sense. Is he a ham? 😉
Mihnea,
If that’s were they are going with the show, then the dornish are the most fucking stupid people in Westerons and surprises me how they made it so far as a free and powerful kingdom.
Yes, I think the potion means something, but I also think that the glamor and loads of other magic is in the necklace. When Mance was glamored to be Rattleshirt, he had a ruby on his wrist that glowed just like Mel’s! Mel is only ever without the necklace in the bathtub scene, with Selyse in the room. And there is a theory about that: some think that Mel was letting Selyse see the real her. Mel says in the scene to Selyse, “You don’t need lies. You are strong enough to look into the Lord’s light and see his truth for yourself. However harsh it is. However hard for us to understand.”
Rat Kook,
It was nice to see him back as changed Theon but I felt that Allen’s performance was the worse in this episode. He had this fake husky voice and forced way to say things. I would expect a bit more effort from his part.
I’m assuming you don’t mean Targaryens but literal dragons, since Snow and Dany were in this episode. Where were the dragons in the Season 1 premiere? I didn’t think that we had any at that time.
Something I found interesting from the episode was the burning of the Mereneese navy, with Tyrion saying “we won’t be going to Westerns anytime soon”
For me, since I know that Euron has been cast, just screamed that
Connor,
Ik think it looked like a print of a crow, like they have used in the season 3 posters.
Figuratively speaking he leaves the crow behind and can come back freed of his oath
Also, can someone tell me what happened to the hounds when Brienne comes running in?
Do they just gap it? Lol.. sat there watching it wondering okay… Pod is on the ground and not being mauled by hounds… why?
Presumably they cut the killing of the dogs. As I semi-joked above, people often are much more disturbed by killing dogs and cats than they are by the killing of people.
I think that we can see what Yara and Theon might be doing later! I suspect that Daeny will be taking on the “disenfranchised” as she goes along. If nothing else, then people like Yara and Ellaria would probably naturally look to Daeny for succor.
But we will see. One nice thing about this episode is that it did leave us all unsullied. Basically, anything important in Winter that might in any way, shape or form be on the show has been on the show already. Huzzah for that….
(Still, I cannot help but to wish that the episode had gotten more done: in a lot of ways, it was an extended reminder of where everyone left off. Yeah, yeah: it’s essentially the first scenes of the final act, and that calls for recap, but, still….)
Also, continuity errors (like Mel not wearing her stone in the bath) are not really plot-holes: they are essentially editing mistakes.
However, you are correct: a plot-hole is a logical inconsistency where the plot depends on X being true and X being false. So, unless it is a quantum story where a cat’s life is the key, it has to be one or the other. Inconsistencies that do not affect the plot are simply editing errors. They happen all the time because, as the Philosopher Homer (Simpson) stated: life is hard.
GameofHype,
I counted two dogs. As somebody else cleverly said in one of the threads these dogs were not the ones that Ramsey used to “play” with his victims, they were dogs for searching people or animals. They were probably scattered in the forest after they masters died. I suppose they were not trained to attack but only to hunt down.
Very good point. I completely thought this was supposed to be right after their return from the docks. I think it was made pretty clear that the Sand Snakes were playing “dress up” at the docks. Obara does not wear foo foo dresses and it’s likely her sisters don’t either. Why have Ellaria and Tyene still in those ridiculous dresses with obvious Tyene hair growth?
Honestly, the problems I have with Dorne have nothing to do with the non-adherence to the books. It’s just an ok storyline in the books. It’s how ridiculous the story is. Ellaria turns into a mustache-twirling villain, complete with a new “bad guy” accent. She completely goes against what Oberyn would have done. He waited 17 years to exact his “revenge.” She’s calling out Doran for being a wuss, but wouldn’t Oberyn be considered one as well, by her new standards? I would say many of the choices D&D have made that differ from the books have been great, often cutting through GRRM’s tedious world building and pulling out only the most exciting and entertaining elements. Dorne is and was a bust. Now, can they bring them back into the fold and make their story going forward matter? Maybe? Do the Lannisters really need another antagonist going forward? Their house is almost done anyway. I don’t know. I just think it’s a rare misstep by D&D and it’s ok to acknowledge that. Great shows have shitty plotlines all the time.
This episode did something good I did not expect. It made me jump on board with shortened seasons. I would so much rather have quality and tight editing than just 10 willy nilly episodes that they don’t have the proper time to look at with a keen eye and decide what doesn’t pass muster and cut it.
Really people Dorne, stop it already, even in the books is a mess… at least they showed it like it is in the books; people in Dorne doesn’t support Doran anymore, period.
And there were so much goodness in the other storylines! Applause! I liked it…
Wimsey,
I fully agree in regards to the latter part of your comment. YES, it brought us all back up to speed. But I think everyone is so fanatic about this show and waiting for 10 months that we knew damn well where they were. But, I suppose 6 more days until some proper sustenance. Nom nom.
Dorne was …not good because of the lack of logic, but I haven’t been invested in Dorne ever since last season. I’ve wondered how Dorne could be adapted if their mechanism for revenge (Aegon) was taken out? How could the inheritance plot/marriage plot go on without Aegon and Arianne? Apparently, it didn’t go well last season and this season, they’re going wall out carnage. I understand thining out the herd and leaving reactionary, violent characters are a way to get Dorne to be aggressive in chasing their revenge, but killing Doran still bothers me. Are the characters mad in their quest for vengeance? That’s literally the only reason I can think of for them to kill the prince of Dorne and his heir, leaving instability behind.
In a way, it almost reminded me of Titus Andronicus – some may agree that that play is as terrible as the Dorne subplot but I’ve always loved it – where the titular character and his antagonist’s quest for revenge end with dead people all over the stage, some even served in a pie.
Could things have been slightly better, for me at least, if Ellaria had been more book Ellaria who understood the futility of vengeance? Yes. Ah well, it’s done and I’m just going to view this plot as a case of characters driven insane by revenge and wonder what wacky thing they’ll do next.
Just gonna reiterate once more: I loved the Theon/Sansa (plus Brienne n’ Pod) stuff in this episode.
But upon rewatches, one thing’s bothering me: Theon’s appearance is different between their first and second scene (the first scene ending with them crossing that river). I reckon they filmed the first scene much later and used a different wig (or one’s a wig and one isn’t?). He looks a lot cooler in the first scene than in the second.
When the first promo photo’s came out (with that photo which looked like Sansa was helping Theon out of a river), people were saying how he looked different then, too. Just look at the picture in this article; I don’t think he’s ever looked cooler than he does in that scene. It’s the hair, something’s different, almost Jon Snow-ish.
OR AM I JUST IMAGINING ALL OF THIS?
Something I don’t see being discussed anywhere, and forgive me if it has been and I just missed it…
During the scene with Varys and Tyrion walking through the mostly-deserted city, it’s mentioned that someone has to be behind the Sons of the Harpy, and especially behind the burning of the ships.
At one point they are walking through an open, deserted square and there is a POV shot from inside a building that creeps upon the back left shoulder and head of… someone. We don’t see who. I’m wondering the point of this particular shot if it’s *not* supposed to infer that someone is in the shadows plotting this whole thing…
(and certainly I have to wonder who that’d be, considering everyone we know still alive in the Essos portions of the story is accounted for: Tyrion & Varys in the square, Missandei and Grey Worm obviously still in the pyramid, and Jorah and Daario out hunting for Dany.)
This is an oft-quoted theory about what’s happening… but if this is the tack the show takes, then it would be a very bad development. In essence, it would be saying that Jon’s vows are only bound to him physically, when in fact his commitment was his essence toward an ideal: Jon Snow (not the body, but the being) was committing to the Night’s Watch.
But I don’t think this is going to be the way things go.
My prediction: Thorne’s speech pretty much persuaded everyone in the Night’s Watch to follow his lead, except for Edd and the few friends Jon has left who are in the room with Davos and his body. That puts the entirety of the Night’s Watch in the ‘fair game’ category… and when the next attack comes from the White Walkers, the Night’s Watch will be DECIMATED. No Night’s Watch… no vows.
Instead, I think the next ‘watchers on the Wall’ will be the Free Folk, realizing they are the only thing standing between the White Walkers in the rest of humanity. And their leader will be the only person south of the Wall who’s ever given them respect: Jon Snow. They’ll never wear black, but they’ll follow the risen King of the North out of self-preservation and hope for their future.
Laura,
God your hatred for Dorne is unbelievable. You are one of the few commentators who is searching for every bit of evidence possible in order to fit it in their opinion and prove how horrible Dorne is. What Ravyn said is that there is a sense of continuity from the last Dorne scene in ep10 to the new one. Ok it is true. But what has this to do with your tirade against Elaria and Tyene? And why Elaria’s and Tyene’s dresses were ridiculous (ridiculous of all the adjectives you could think of)? And how relevant it is to refer to what Oberyn would have done when he is dead? And because he is dead Elaria and SS act the way they act. Has it ever crossed your mind that all of them were sick and tired by all this waiting 17 yeas now and want some action against the Lannisters? That all this waiting made them say loudly no more. Have you never been in or heard of a similar situation when people wait and wait until they find a time to take revenge for something that happened many years ago? It is a common place in criminal stories. And why is this absurd or bad or ridiculous when the whole Dorne plot creates a new rival for the Lannisters and brings two SS at KL?
Ygritte,
I liked the episode much more after rewatching it.
I enjoyed everything connected with the North (which remembers 🙂 ) Davos, Brienne, Theon, Sansa, Pod who can finally ride and fight were all very good. Allister proved to a complex character, which can be understood even if he gets no empathy from me. On the one hand, at Castle Black, we witnessed the silence before the storm. But Ghost made me shed a tear, I could feel his pain. The other Northern story kept us with fingers crossed and impatient to see the characters finally safe. I was impressed by Theon (whom I hated in season 2): his timid try to help and comfort, his determination, his willing to sacrifice himself. I was happy for Brienne finally becoming an oathkeeper and pleased to see the hint with the similar scene with Catelyn. And finally Mel’s old image was disturbing, but it was supposed to be. We have seen many beautiful bodies in this show and now the realization that one of them is, in fact, exactly the opposite… plus the revelation of magic (even if expected, as in my case) send shivers down one’s spine.
But Oberyn also went for it at the first opportunity that he had. He probably would have done it sooner if he had the opportunity. Ellaria got the opportunity right away. Moreover, this makes two major slights on Dorne in recent memory that Doran has seemingly forgiven.
If they are only decimated, then they will do quite well. (Sorry, I couldn’t resist: and I am a pedantic jerk, too!)
I think that the preview for next week gives us an alternative possibility for what will happen. A certain psychopath thinks that his wife is at Castle Black, and he knows that Castle Black is undefended from the south. My bet is that the NW is going to get hurt badly by Jon’s escape: and they will be absolutely no match for whatever force Ramsay sends against them, even just “20 good men.” They will not be decimated: indeed, they might just be obliterated.
That was a very powerful scene. I particularly like how Pod had to help Sansa with the words: it communicated that she just could not quite believe how rapidly tables had turned. And I think that this could be the ascendancy of Sansa to the Stark’s eminence grise.
And I did like poor old Ghost’s reaction. I’ve seen a couple of dogs like that after their master died: it’s pretty traumatic for them (Cats also get upset, but then usually assuage their feline version of tears by feasting on master’s flesh: because master would have wanted it that way!) I am pleasantly surprised that nobody seems to have convinced themselves that Jon warged into Ghost! I was almost certain that people would be sure that the fact that Ghost cared could “only” mean that.
Likes:
– They’ve cut Dorne. Great. I literally moaned when I saw it in the title sequence, so nice surprise
– Sansa and Theon bonding. Great acting.
– Davos and Mel.
Dislikes:
– What a horrid usage of Siddig.
– The Brienne-fight seemed clunky to me. In terms of choreography.
– The Meereenese Fleet-Retcon. To me, it seemed clear that they chose this route at one point (as opposed to the Ironborn), but then decided they did need the Ironborn, and then just made the call to burn off the fleet that they had already established for Dany. The fact that it was the exact number Vic brought to Meereen in the books is just evidence for their earlier chose for it to replace Vic. This is a case of bad planning.
– The Varys/Tyrion-convo didn’t really flow all that well.. It’s as if both actors had a bad breakfast or something.
– The running time. It needed five more minutes or something. The biggest disappointment I have is that I feel that if they ended the episode with Edd and the Wildlings beastmoding into Castle Black, that it would’ve felt complete. Now, especially with just 50 minutes, it felt incredibly off. We were promised big moments straight off the bat, and while the Martell-whipe out and Mel’s glamour were nice, I think that having the battle against the mutineers ending here would’ve done the episode justice and it wouldn’t really need more then 5minutes (7 minutes at most) to do so.
I’m giving it a 6/10.
Kraznys,
You mean apart from the bit where the Sand Snakes got on the boat despite clearly being seen on the docks in Season 5 Episode 10?
They fucked up Dorne utterly and completely. I had hope, and then they go and kill the only two interesting characters in the plot, without ever using them.
I thought it was a very strong episode otherwise, but my goodness.
I was wondering if Jaime riding into Dorne, murdering a group of soldiers, sneaking into the Martell household and assaulting a prince and getting away with it would leave any ill-feeling in the Dornish — and it certainly did: Doran’s soft-treatment of Jaime must have broke the camel’s back, especially after the much-loved Oberyn’s death. The only problem is that we have had no insight into the Dornish people themselves, we have no idea who they are let alone what they’re feeling. It’s an issue you either forgive or, well, don’t, but I never liked the book’s version of events to get too attached to these characters and their dilemmas in the first place. Natually not everyone will agree, and I definitely understand the shortcomings, but it’s a mere handful of minutes overall and nothing like being ‘forced to eat shit’, as the hyperbole always suggests.
That last picture of Mel will certainly blunt many erections in Westeros…and beyond.
I don’t know about this magic stuff. Men see what they want to see…especially when it’s dark.
I wonder what explanation we will get for the fire. Supposedly someone has set these ships on fire but I wonder who? SotH would not really make sense, as they WANT Dany, her councellors and her army gone from Meereen. No point in destroying the means to that. Was it the former slaves to prevent her leaving? I hope we find out.
RosanaZugey,
Yeah! Khal and his bloodriders was hilarious…all the things they’d rather do than see a beautiful woman naked. It suggests one thing: they don’t exactly respect/fear him. He may be something of a soft touch…given to romantic notions, and all that crap.
Dorne was beyond terrible, even my show only friends were like “wtf is this shit”. Theres no build up or payoff its just actors saying akwards things in bad accents. I really hope someone just does an edit to remove them from this season, some kind of fan edit I can watch when the blurays come out. Everything else was pure GoT, great atmosphere and payoff, just take out the Dorne mess.
Lets avenge martell deaths but killing martells! And what about the dornish bannermen? They exist in show universe because of that Pod scene in season 4 are they just gonna except some bastard born daughters killing their prince?
After the rewatch, I still don’t like the Dorne scene. It has nothing to do with the books either. Oh well. To each its own. I am not going to get into a long argument on the internet about the scene. It is fine.
Given the Rat Cook story, I would hope that Blackfish or Starks wouldn’t try something identical to the Red Wedding. There might be a similar retaliation, body for body, that won’t involve hosts killing guests.
Dragonmcmx,
OMG you are the best ever. That was funny stuff thanks
Not sure if posted already.
The note that Doran received (from Jaime) can be seen here
http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/objects-from-dorne
Did i miss the bit where Davros drags the Red Woman of her horse and demands to know where the princess and her mother are?
Josh L.,
Yes it can be explained away after the fact. But during this episode there was no indication that time had actually passed, so the idea that Doran would have received word so quickly or that Trystane was waiting on the ship or that the ss had time to sail to him was not well defined. I get it now, makes sense, but watching it, it looked like, if not a plot hole, a very poorly sequenced plot.
Bloodraven is approximately 125 years old. So 125 minus 400, carry the three, subtract the negative numbers, and we have Bloodraven time-traveling back 300 years to father Mel? And Shiera has to time-travel, too, no less. Maybe they birthed Mel in regular time and then sent her back 300 years.
dothrakian raven,
That makes sense – I was expecting them to start attacking Sansa when they reached her, and was surprised that they were just sniffing her dress. Thanks for that info
They described Mance as being glamored by the glowing ruby at his wrist. Yes, Mel truly is old, but the ruby is a glamor to make her look young.
She wasn’t wearing it in the bath, the only time she was without, which I figure was either an oversight or that she was letting Selyse see her as she truly was. There is a bit at the end of the scene where Mel says she doesn’t have to lie to Selyse because she is a true believer.
It was a setup. Thorne hoped they would die at Hardhome. He wasn’t prepared to defend against a thousand wildlings and Jon, especially with Sam there to let him in. I think it was a mixture of wanting command, hating Jon, & following tradition (anti-wildling).
There is a screenshot of one of the trailers that we think is Bronn grabbing Pod from behind in the Riverlands.
TheSnarkAtWinterfell,
I was thinking it looked a little like the Stark direwolf sigil but I was also drinking
I cheered so hard! I was all, he’s back, he’s back, he’s back!!!! Theon is back!
People keep saying that it’s bad writing on David and Dan’s part because Mel didnt have the ruby necklace on in the tub scene with Selyse in Season 4, I dont think D&D fucked up on the writing, i hope they address this in the next episode, or soon.
RE: Davos stare
I thought that was to establish lack of “snow” beneath the blood. In GRRM’s text too ‘smoking’ is given importance. I’m no fan of R+L but then again this ties to the family with affinity to warm blood and possibly sets up R+L.
The hounds are still there when Brienne is thrown from her horse. They are in front of Theon when he looks back. There were 6 Bolton men and 5 were killed. I think the dude with the hounds ran back to Winterfell and is the guy in the room with Ramsay when he tells Roose they’re going to Castle Black in the preview.
Lulus Mum,
Shy Lady Dragon,
Hot Pink Lipstick, Tormunds Woman, and anyone else who is interested,
Ice Spider and I are going to Skype for the next episode, live starting between 8:30 to 8:45 PM EST and going through to the end of the show and beyond for those who want to stay on a little bit longer to chat. If you’re interested, I’ve placed details in this forum, http://watchersonthewall.com/topic/skype-watching-home-together/.
Lol. I do not think I am one of “few” commentators who dislikes Dorne. Read this recap, for one. Read some of the reviews online. You may disagree with me but it’s frankly stupid to single me out as some anti-Dorne nutjob. There’s Dorne hate all around and it’s not unwarranted. Stop trying to make people think your opinions are truth.
Connor,
Just at the amount of blood = lots of wounds = he dead like so dead like omg dead
Hrm, I can’t edit my comment but to dothrakian raven, here is a snippet of the official EW review from Darren Franich:
“Last season’s Dorne subplot was a rare and absolute misstep for Game of Thrones, a go-nowhere cul-de-sac that banished two of the show’s best characters to a land populated by strange accents and Chained Heat stripteases. The show’s had some blind alleys before — Dany spent years wandering through plotlines that felt leftover from Hercules: The Legendary Journey. But the Sand Snake problem was a real problem. ”
So to say anyone who dislikes Dorne is in the wrong is just silly if people who do this for a living are seeing the same issues myself and the other non-Dorne fans see.
Me too. Never let that sword go again Theon. Make them pry it out of your cold dead hands, if it comes to that. Remember you are an Iron born warrior. No more of this Reek nonsense.
Roose is displaying an odd blind eye when it comes to his son. Roose is smarter than Ramsay. I am having a hard time believing that Ramsey can so easily dispatch the Warden of the North. Roose is always a couple steps ahead of his bastard psychopath.
Laura,
I didn’t say that anyone who dislikes Dorne is on the wrong, you are saying it. You are one of the many who disliked but one of the few who insists in creating arguments from loose threads. You said for example that Elarias dress was “ridiculous” a comment made only by you in relation to Dorne scenes. You probably are an expert costume designer among other things. And yes Game of Thrones is phantasy and not an avant-garde Francis Ford Copola film. So in these cases one gets phantasy elements like “strange” accents, magic, time gaps and Hercules legendary journey feeling. Live with it. I have no problem with negative comments but I have a problem with a blind negativity based on inconsequential argumentation. By the way any comment about strange accents sounds racist in my ears.
I agree, they really botched up the Dorne story line in the show, but I guess they felt the need to touch on it because of Oberryn. On the other hand, the Ironborn story would have been much better to be developed and showed on the Show which would also Tie in well with what happens in Mereem and Victarion Greyjoy arrival in Mereem to wed Daenerys…lol Now it seems we are Repeating Season 2 again with Daenerys. At first Dothraki don’t like her, then they grow to respect her, then she escapes….don’t really see the point to it. Unless she convinces the new Khal to help her take the Iron Throne, which sounds Highly Unlikely because he would have no reason to do that…lol Dothraki like to rape, plunder and pillage which is not allowed in Westeros…under Daenery’s rule anyway…
Also agree on the Sand Snakes getting to the Prince on the Boat to kill him, when in fact they were left behind on the Shore as the Boat Sailed away…lmao
I like your Theory, makes a lot of sense.
I agree, Hardhome was a major Development for the Entire Show and not only does Jon Snow, not tell the rest of the Watch what happened there, but fails to inform anyone else in the 7 Kingdoms. I thought that was the biggest event in the show to date in terms of nearing the Endgame – which is humans vs the white walkers. Ie, very hard to dismiss a letter from the Lord Commander stating “Me and some of my men fought an Army of White Walkers that was at least 5,000 strong and growing. They will reach the Wall soon. Normal weapons don’t kill them. Only Valyrian Steel…etc…” or something along those lines…. Very Strong Information there, that would not be easily dismissed I would think.
Well it was neither the best nor worst start to a season but I enjoyed it for the most part. Everything at the wall was fantastic and certainly seems to point to the resurrection, in particular I enjoyed Mels final scene, both the reveal we’ve suspected and how dejected and lost she appears. It really seems that between the loss of Stannis and now Jon her faith is completely shaken. My biggest gripe, as others have said, has to be Dorne though.
I can live with the direction they’ve decided to go even though I would have preferred a different one and wish Hotah and Doran had been better used, but I’m more annoyed about the various lack of logic. It simply doesn’t make sense that they carried on to KL after Myrcella died when they were still within sight of the docks. Surely Trystane, who we’re supposed to believe is deeply in love with her and knowing that his cousins and his Uncle’s former lover want her dead would order the ship turned back as soon as he learned of her death, both to warn his father and to seek justice/revenge. Why would he carry on to KL? It just doesn’t make sense. Throw in the complete lack of sadness shown with Trystane and how the SS don’t seem to care at all that they’re murdering their cousin and I was a little underwhelmed.
I feel like Arya could have been left out of this episode. As much as I love most Arya scenes the screen time might have served Dorne better to at least flesh that out.
The Brienne/Sansa oath was awesome and a great throwback to Cat. Bring on the rest of the season 😀
Wahahahahahaha
Slightly OT but silly Dan Savage is silly:
http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2016/04/25/24007184/game-of-thrones-tear-down-that-wall
Laura,
Yeah, but the people who like Dorne aren’t wrong either; people just have different opinions on things. It’s all subjective. If you like something great, if not that’s a shame, but hopefully there is plenty of other stuff for you to enjoy. No one likes everything the show does.
Since I watched the episode roughly 24 h after most of you, I’ve avoided this thread until today. I don’t have time to read through all the comments (maybe just read 200 of them :P) so I guess you guys already said it all about this episode, but I’ll go with some thoughts anyway.
First of all, the debate regarding bad writing etc;
I’m a BIG fan of both show and books, but see them as two separate works – so i won’t compare them. I do agree with some of the bashers (like crimethink) though – my main problem with the writing and the fact that the show is now “off” book territory is that it suddenly shows that GRRM is waaaaaaaaaay better than the production crew at all the details. We wouldn’t have had this discussion if this weren’t the case. For example, when Varys tells Tyrion that Myhsa is Valyrian for mother. That’s just wrong, it’s Ghiscari – and either Varys doesn’t know Ghiscari (then how does it know it says “mother”?) or it’s a misstake in the script. It is a lot more, but it doesn’t matter that much..it’s just details, right? 😉 And it’s not about what choices D&D make regarding what’s important for the story, I have full confidence that they know where they’re heading. I’m afraid we’re going to have discussions about the details/”plot holes” all season. But whatever.
Loved Sansa’s scenes. I was actually worried I wouldn’t like her story this season, but now I really believe it will be awesome! (Although I wonder where the last Bolton guy went with the two dogs?)
Ramsey’s scenes were solid. Are Roose playing with Ramsey or is he just being ignorant? Watch out Walda (& Roose)!
Dorne was not what I was expecting, not at all.. I’m gonna wait and see how it unfolds before jumping to conclusions.
Emilia was great, as well as the Dothraki. And they were funny, who could see that coming? One thing though, the wives of Kahl Moro had a “evil smile” on their faces when they told Daeny about Vaes Dothrak like it was a horrible place, but won’t they go there as well if Mr Moro bites it? 😛
I’m hoping that Jaime is playing Cersei at this point, but I’m probably wrong. Great acting from NCW and Lena!
Not sure I liked Tyrion and Varys strolling around the streets of Mereen. But it was OK.
Jorah and Daario, not s much to say, they found the ring and know that the Dothraki have Daeny, Jorah checking the time on his arm and also a little love-debate.
Arya – my favorite, I want to see what the future will bring for her!
Ah, and the Red Woman. That was cool – let’s see how it will unfold 🙂
Another thing, OT.
Greg du Pille,
I think we can retcon this not with mystical Duracell’s but that the only one Mel was trying to fool in that one scene without her necklace was a completely insane and devoted Selyse. Glamoring requires deceit and clearly Selyse was so heavily intoxicated the Red God’s koolaid that she wouldn’t be able to see anything but Carice regardless of jewelry. So chock it up to crazy Selyse with the dead babies in her room!
loco73,
Hmmmm…yep there is that on this site. However, as we become more heavily invested in the storyline the passion increases and we become hypercritical. However, you are hypocritical. You spewed bile.
The Dornish plotline, I’m assuming you are referring to the fanbase’s treatment of such, is clearly an aberrant to what has been a very well received episode. The comments are clearly showing massive appreciation. The SS and Ellaria characterizations are bad for all the reasons people list; shallowness, miscasting, and motivation. You may have an argument in the methods that ppl are using to communicate this fact but not much of one.
Do not think you are not a troll because you profess hating trolling.
TheSnarkAtWinterfell,
I wondered at this as well. The shape of the blood imprint looked…odd. It did seem to have little wings, but more like a butterfly to my eye. Which of course, would be ridiculous, but there could be something to it being dragon-like.
SaveTheWolves,
I think it feel like they needed to bring Dorne into the fold of the fallen Great Houses. The big picture perspective is that all the Seven Kingdoms will at some point in the near future be led by subordinate Houses or have had their power structures and the resulting bureaucracy upended and chaotic. Or mostly that their military power is being employed elsewhere or has been depleted.
No spoilers, just recap of last five seasons +1 ep of s6:
1) North: Boltons and chaotic; Northmen destroyed
2) Westerlands: Tywin gone but still in Lannister hands for now; Forces and finances hurt by WOFK
3) Riverlands: Freys
4) Reach: Tyrells but its Queen and heir are locked up; Forces and finances/ resources in KL and used by Lannisters to bolster the Throne
5) Dorne: Martells are gone, power vacuum for now; forces in possible war with Lannister
6) Stormlands: Baratheons are gone, goodbye Stannis the Mannis and sweet Shireen; forces obliterated
7) Vale of Arryn: In the interim hands of Baelish while weakling Robyn comes of age. Possibe power vacuum to occur; forces undiminished???
I launched into an aside but clearly Dorne had to be included in the series or be a peaceful aberrant that would have some unwarranted advantage. This isn’t me condoning the series treatment of this mandate. Dorne plotline sucks.
Hexonx,
The scene was shot beautifully and everyone did their level best with a thin script. I think we are all just pointing out the obvious, that there really wasn’t time or inclination to fully develop Dorne, but it was requisite for it to fall as well. So, the show just phoned it in with villians and betrayal. However, it is the richness of these which is why this show has been so lauded. We are just calling it like we sees it. I guess at least we get to see amazing set design and location scouting and the wonderful work of costume designers and prop makers. Dornish culture was really brought to life in a compelling way as personified by Pedro Pascal’s amazing portrayal of Oberyn. We get to feel pissed that our excursion to Dorne was dissatisfying.
Totally agreed 🙂 I am not here to fight with anyone who loves this show – we are all in the same boat (anchored to King’s Landing, painting eyes on rocks -haha). I know many people think Arya’s story is boring as hell or that the Starks are idiots and I see why. But, I didn’t besmirch anyone who didn’t like Dorne – just shared my passionate views on why *I* personally didn’t like it.
MG,
Yeah, she held that in for decades and it is clearly not like her to be so vulnerable and transparent. It is like she is more naked than when she was on her walk of shame, shame, shame. Plus, it seems like she fought for so long to show that she was better than to give credence to prophecy. However, now she has been broken enough and is vulnerable. Damn Lena was subtle and powerful. I can’t help but be attracted to the giddy joy of Cersei bounding through the courtyards on the way to the boat. Like, what a glimpse of what could’ve been for Cersei. Just a momma being happy to see her baby girl. Then the way Lena had Cersei process this horrific moment. Clearly there is an internal battle going on in Cersei and we might just be seeing bad Cersei finally championing whatever good was left in her. Just Bravo!
You are very myopic. I said she had a new accent in S5. In S4, she had a typical Dornish Latin sounding accent. In S5, she changed her accent to sound very menacing and almost a parody of what a Latin villain with some long curly mustache would sound like. Intimating racism is just being inflammatory for no reason.
It can make sense from Jaimes perspective. He wanted to get to his home base as soon as possible, because even if he thought he knew who killed Myrcella he would be in danger too. So we could assume he was in command of the ship. The captain most likely had orders to get Jaime and Trystane to Kings Landing anyway and might not want to return. Trystane might, or he might not, because his father sent him to Kings Landing on a very important mission, but given that we know the ship didn’t turn around, even if Trystane wanted to return we have to conclude that he couldn’t or was talked into first going to KL.
Given the letter Jaime sent to Doran, it sounds like he was in charge.
CatspawAssassin,
OMG! The wheelchair trope would’ve been the worst! It could’ve played like bad slapstick. Which is kinda what the SS Water Garden fight scene felt like!
GhostsOfSummerhall,
If that is the case, maybe that is why Wun Wun is so eager to get through that door. Here is to hoping that Mel glamor’s Jon Snow onto a 15 foot giant. I doubt that is how the magic works or what that will accomplish except being badass AF!
“Jon Snow knows nothing? Jon Snow no need to know nothing! I just pound you into the ground like a stake!”
“Olly, is that you?! For the Watch, indeed! Let me smash you into jelly!”
CatspawAssassin,
excuse me, a bad poosey! Plus, she has grown her hair out a bit. Don’t you know that makes her badass AF in girlie-warrior terms? Plus, don’t forget Kris Kristopherson’s aphorism about the power of poosey in Blade II. However, the context is a little jumbled.
Hexonx,
it is known
I don’t know whether this has been mentioned in any of the articles, or if anybody has mentioned it in the comments so far. But in the final scene with Melisandre, we first see her sat by the fire in her chambers. There’s a very specific shot of her rubbing her hands, with the fire burning in the background.
In Season 5 she told Jon Snow that she was never cold because the Lord’s fire lived within her. And she held Jon Snow’s hand to her face to prove it.
Here we focus on her hands as she now warms them by the fire. It’s obviously an allusion to her losing her faith in the Lord of Light. And the scene ends with her climbing underneath the bedcovers to keep warm.
It’s pretty obvious that we are meant to believe she is having a crisis of faith, much like we were told Thoros of Myr had.
And we know what restored Thoros’s faith, don’t we?!
Josh L.,
Aaah I see, thanks for that 🙂 I knew he
Julia,
No, she said that her dragons were the only children she would ever have when they were stolen.
Ginevra,
That’s a fab idea! Sadly I can’t join you as we are 5 hours ahead of EST here so the first showing is at 2am. I can only watch it live if I have the next day off (or at least the morning). I am off for the day after
but probably not any of the others. Hope you all have a great time! It’ll be weird seeing what people look and sound like in real life. I’ll post a picture of myself so you can stick a mini version on your screen and pretend I’m joining in 😀 I imagine anyone with an avatar looks like their picture, so to me you are a drawing-like, long haired teenage(?) girl and live somewhere that’s always summery. And I am a dead ringer for Pingu, obviously! 😉
House Applebee,
If anything Dorne’s not wrapped up, they’ve started something which will leave the ramifications to deal with for the rest of the season, maybe into next ..
It’s been alluded to in various interviews that D&D were pretty confident that the Dorne plot would never see the screen, which 100% explains why it’s such a huge goddamn mess. Most storylines were planned out for years, but Dorne was tacked on for whatever reason — and God, does it show.
Out of all the changes, I hate what they’ve done to Dorne (and Doran) the most. Doran was the grass that sheltered and hid the viper (Oberyn), but they broke him down to the criminally underused Alexander Siddig sitting in chairs and making a few comments on Oberyn while we were treated to the criminally misused Indira Varma sneering and rolling her eyes. Doran was a Targaryen loyalist, Doran was a quiet strategist who put family first before vengeance, and for fuck’s sake, the Sand Snakes worked with Doran once he revealed his plot to them after their imprisonment. So much could’ve come from this storyline and it was legit stabbed to death in the first episode of the season. ARGH.
It felt like D&D were pandering, as if they thought, “Well, we’ve been pretty shitty to women these past few seasons. Let’s give them this empowering moment — BY MURDERING ALL THE MEN. YEAH! GIRL POWER, RIGHT, LADIES??? VALAR MORGHULIS AMIRITE?” It was gross, it was pandering, it completely threw a plot with so much potential right off the tracks.
The only way they could right this wrong is to give us a lead-in to Arianne and/or Quentyn Martell. I don’t care how they do it. He and/or she are off somewhere and get the news of Doran’s death. I don’t care, I don’t care, they just need to make it right. If not, House Martell is now legally extinct and Dorne is now in the hands of (literally) a bunch of bastards, which has no legal hold when it comes to succession.
Yes you are Spot on about Doran, but perhaps they will expand the Dorne storyline over the next 2 seasons. At the end of the day I think they will be the main backers of Daenerys Landing in Westeros, if she ever makes it there…lol
duckandcover,
Perhaps that’s the point. As somebody mentioned elsewhere, all of the big houses (bar, perhaps, the Starks) have the potential to completely implode in the coming seasons.
The Martells are basically gone now; the Tyrells are in a pretty precarious position with both heirs imprisoned; Tommen remains the last hope for the Lannisters and, in name if not in blood, the Baratheons, and we suspect that he is doomed; Edmure Tully is still a hostage of the Freys, as far as we’re aware, so the Tullys’ fate is up in the air; and while Robin Arryn survives, he and his House are pretty much in Littlefinger’s destructive clutches.
Perhaps chaos across the southern Kingdoms is part of the endgame.
duckandcover,
Thank you for expressing my feelings in entirety, without resorting to the ‘KHAAAAAAAANNNNNNN!!!!!’ style gestures and Kermit arm flails which I admit to doing far too often on this subject. 😉
I would like to see where they said that. It would explain something.
My bet is they will somehow legitimize the marriage between Oberyn and Ellaria (maybe they really were legally married and have proof). Then all of their children would be legitimate and Tyene is their oldest child, who would inherit, because Dorans line is extinct. That is foreshadowed in my opinion by Tyene staying with Ellaria in Dorne.
duckandcover,
So what if they are gone….?
So are the Baratheons and most likely so will the Lannisters and the Tyrells.
The Tully’s are as good as gone, I can’t see Edmure or the Blackfish surviving the end of the story.
The Arryns are almost dead, only a sickly little boy remains, I think he’ll be gone soon too.
I fully expect that only the Starks will still remain in the end.
I’m still amused at people thinking that laws matter. Right now it’s a free for all. Whoever wins makes the rules.
I see (not here) a lot of people complaining that Dany is yet again going in the wrong direction (away from Westeros).
I really don’t get why they didn’t include one of Quaithe prophecy in season 2 (the character wasn’t cut so it would only “cost” one additional minute of screen time) if they weren’t planning on streamlining/hurrying Dany’s storyline.
(“To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east. To go forward you must go back and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow” ACOK chapter 40).
Green Chili,
Looks more like a cartoon elk to me….JS=CH through time travel confirmed?
The more I watch the end of the episode the sadder it feels. The look on old Mels face, the way she crawls into bed so timidly and tired. Despite the horrible things she’s done I can’t help but feel for her and how badly shaken her faith is.
– First shot of Season 6: the Wall at dawn.
Would it be fair to guess the Wall will also be the last shot – with a crumbling twist?
– Olly deserved his revenge (imagine knowing your parents were eaten by Thenns), but exacted on the wrong man. His reunion with Tormund probably won’t have the outcome he would expect…
– Will Davos be questioning Melisandre about the fates of Stannis, Selyse and Shireen on one of the upcoming episodes, or are to assume this has already happened?
– Pod saved by Theon exactly the same way he had saved Tyrion back at the Blackwater. Good karma there for the beloved mr Payne.
– Cersei mentioning Maggy’s prophecy to Jaime: we ‘d better believe this foreshadows the latter (yet unmentioned in the show) part about the Valonqar and that it will involve the two of them. What chain of events will lead Jaime to do this?
– Notice the glance Varys gives Tyrion after he mentions the freed men and right before stumbling upon the R’hllor priest preaching. I’m still wondering whether Varys has the stealthiest agenda in the story, or if what we see is indeed what we get. Do the showrunners have a huge Keyser Soze surprise in store?
– Under Khal Moro’s tent: never an inappropriate moment to throw in a Monty Python tribute:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso
– If you ever thought Carice Van Houten’s (100% natural) tits were too good to be true, you were spot on!
Their unbelievably perfect shape (along with her acting chops and great audition) must have weighed in the decision to cast her as Melisandre – and now we all know why…
Here ‘s the twist in the Dorne storyline being foreshadowed early in Season 5:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFLwuqzV1dA
This storyline had some good elements along the way and is in keeping with the show’s recurring theme of overthrown leaders, rulers and/or ruling Houses.
The only ruler yet unaffected is Balon Greyjoy, but we all know there is a rope bridge and a subsequent Kingsmoot on the way.
At this point I am wondering whether GRRM deliberately placed Sunspear at the deep Southeastern corner of the Westerosi map:
it is the ideal landing point of a fleet arriving from Slaver’s Bay for an initial pit stop before an eventual all-out invasion on King’s Landing (or whatever is left of it by that time).
Will the Dornish capital be temporarily renamed Queen’s Landing?
On the other hand, some very abstract narrative was used for the two scenes involving Dornish characters in the season’s premiere (and not the meaningful kind of abstract, like in e.g. Stanley Kubrick’s “2001”), along with some very weird plot choices that make zero sense, beginning from last season’s finale.
And, although the storyline’s rationale stands on very thin ice, if this ice doesn’t break I’m willing to go along with skating on it.
Feels like the showrunners are telling us:
“we ‘ll be rushing things along in Dorne for now, since it ‘s a secondary storyline and we have MUCH bigger fish to fry this season”.
What mostly worries me, though, is whether this blitzkrieg method will be used in Winterfell as well.
That is, Ramsay disposing of his Lord father (this has been foreshadowed more than extensively) and stepmother (is it 3 or 4 times his unborn legitimate brother has been mentioned already?) without so much as an excuse, a framing story or fear of retribution/punishment from his bannermen for Kinslaying.
Simply because “they are afraid of him”, like Maester Wolkan…
Keeping my hopes up for Winterfell receiving the treatment it deserves, as it has been the original pillar of the story.
Initially they must have thought she died of a ruptured brain hemorrhoid.
And carried on regardless…
This
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxK92bDmrfA
combined with this (which they probably should never have published)
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s–Wi6cNdNT–/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/pidhuaxgi2qyblsw1kis.jpg
are probably the narrative’s lowest point so far…
I understand the story dictated the ship goes to Kings Landing and Myrcella could not have died later that what was shown (even if this would have suited the writers perfectly), as that would have been a ridiculously long time for any poison to take effect.
What was missing was a scene on the boat with Jaime and Trystane utterly devastated, discussing their options and whether to turn back or carry on.
At lest we would have seen them mourning and not having to guess from Trystane’s arts & crafts project [well put, Sue] or his lost appetite if he even knew what had happened.
– Couldn’t Toby Sebastian pull the scene off?
– Did they write it but decided not to shoot it?
– Will we see it in the season’s deleted scenes extras?
And it’s not like David Benioff had never written anything similar (like, 12 years ago):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e0BLcd_WsE
Thank you, GoT, for that brain hemorrhoid.
A great tribute to the Red God.
If all Red Priestesses are physically reverting to their original looks instead of creating a fake image of uncanny perfection, then Red Temples should definitely be renamed “R’hllor Models Inc”.
Thinking Melanie Liburd, Rila Fukushima, Ania Bukstein, Carice of course, and (the unfortunately never cast) Tehmina Sunny, who surely must have fitted the casting call requirements.
Remember how Melisandre’s looks are described in the books? Is this how she was supposed to initially look several centuries back? Even the -now famous- scene from the show with her, Selyse Florent and a bathtub in Dragonstone alludes to the spell by speaking of lies, deceptions, a trick.
Youthfulness could definitely be faked if the illusion extends to all five senses, instead of only vision, as the coitus scenes -in particular- indicate.
The illusion spell consisting of bound light & shadow could extend to the appearance of vigor, making the crone’s voice & walk sound and appear youthful & vigorous.
She didn’t even have to perform any demanding physical feats that could betray her old age – unless you count deflowering Gendry as one of these…
You just have to not think of the spell mechanics as one of Andy Serkis’ CGI motion capture suits, where the leds capture the slightest of his movements.
Unless a “Dorian Gray spell” of restored youth serves some specific plot purpose, e.g. in the resurrection of the late Lord Snow (?)