Episode 323 – The Red Woman
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The first long night of Game of Thrones season 6 is dark, and full of terrors. It is only the beginning.
Our first podcast of the season is here! There are things that must be discussed.
Discussion Topics
A sea of Owns
The most beautiful moment
What the Dorne?
Khaleesi
CSI Westeros
Back to Braavos
Mystery at Castle Black
Bolton family troubles
Mel’s secret
Owns of the Episode
Like last week, we’re looking for your answer to questions leading into the next episode. Here goes:
1. What do you believe is the significance of Melisandre’s reveal?
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2. What is next for…. ?
Davos and company
Arya’s situation in Braavos
Tyrion’s rule in Meereen
The Dornish knot
The royals in King’s Landing
Sansa / Bri / Pod / Theon / Ramsay
Dany, Dothraki, the detectives
Hodor
ugh, that picture
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We love Brienne of Tarth … she’s almost like a Joan of Arc character for me .. skilled in matters of combat, with the need to serve for the (apparent) greater good … and be prepared to die for her cause if necessary!
Bravo to the actress, Gwendoline Christie, for bringing the character to life, and making her one of my favorite arcs in the entire show!
Lena Headey is also a superb actress, her depiction of the *evil* Queen Cersei has been flawless, in my opinion. Last night’s scene with Jamie was touching, I actually found myself feeling empathy for her despite her somewhat ruthless past deeds.
Poor Jon Snow – What an absolute injustice! If they are determined to keep him dead, then at least let’s see Tormund giving Thorne a Lord of Bones style demise!
The Night’s King can’t work his magic re-animation through the Wall,
So there is no urgency to burn Jon’s body.
My own goes to Sansa and Theon, for defeating the greatest of enemies: hypothermia.
They are just setting up Dorne to be an ally of Dany when she gets her ships from the Greyjoys and lands in South Westeros.
Dany will be greeted by Dorne with open arms as she travels north to defeat the Lannisters. This was all just a set up for that.
Am I the only one who can only listen to the first few minutes of intro then it starts over?
What am I missing? Can’t find the new episode on iTunes either.
if the nights king can’t reanimate through the wall explain the 2 that reanimated in castle black previously.
i rather liked the combination, of scenes from monty python and conan the barbarian, transposed to the dothraki
They are probably protecting Jon’s body until they can bring him north of the wall and burn him by his old god’s weirwood tree out of respect for his beliefs.
http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/objects-from-dorne
Read the message Jaime wrote to Doran.
Own goes to Sansa’s new direwolf – Brienne of Tarth.
Maggie,
Exactly what I imagined Jaime’s relation with Trystane.
He wouldn’t harm him because Myrcella loved him.
Maggie,
Wow ! This makes it look like he cares about peace and even about the Martells.
Did fuck-everything-Jaime actually write that ? It doesn’t add up.
It also shows that Jaime was telling Cersei what she wanted to hear and not what he believed.
I think the message is spoiler on how Jaime thinks, despite what he says. It also covers that plot hole, why Jaime didn’t do anything with Trystane.
Alliser Thorne and his buddies kill Jon Snow and leave his corpse where they did the deed. Ser Davos moves the body to a room. At the moment, Thorne is trying to convince Davos and Jon’s buds to open the door so as to kill them.
So, why leave Jon’s body on the ground where it will be found, instead of disposing of it, say by throwing it over that The Wall? Now he has to deal with Davos, Melisandre, Jon’s buddies, a dire wolf… No wonder Thorne wasn’t elected Lord Commander. He may appear competent, but he can’t see farther than the tip of his nose.
Oh, and the self-righteous look on Ollie’s face during Thorne’s speech really got my blood boiling. Good job, young Brenock O’Connor!
egg,
I always thought that the usual re-animation (not involving the king himself like in Hardhome, which was a rare case) is caused by some kind of “infection”. The bodies may or may not get infected when killed and if they are infected (for example they are always infected when killed by wights), it takes some times for the infection to incubate. The two corpses in S1/AGOT were infected and it incubated while in Castle Black. There is no reason to believe that Jon was infected as he wasn’t killed beyond the Wall, imo. It all just a speculation though.
It’s not over for Jon……..they r just holding off to make us suffer and say “oh no..maybe he is really dead”…..I think them revealing Mel’s true identity was really telling.
I see alot of people are dissapointed with the ep1, like i was in the previous seasons.
But i must say this one did ok.
It had the usual flaw of too little screen time for every storyline that had to be cramped up in there but it was fast paced. When i watched it it felt like the whole thing flew by in 10 minutes. 🙁
Dorne sucks yea. It would have been better if Doran killed the Snakes. Then the Dornish storyline could end with a wise old man ruling there who wishes not to be involved in the war and drag his people into it. That would be a nice “end” to Dorne that would free up more screen time to the more intresting storylines.
In Ep2 preview we see Ramsey wants to storm Castle Black, … when the pink letter comes Thorne will already be dead and there is no sense to taunt Sansa by saying “Winterfell is mine come and see” … she came from there and knows it.
That letter can ONLY be directed at Jon and noone else.
I see Snow returning by ep3 the latest.
So “glamour” has been introduced into the show opening possibilities …, maybe Davos son who he will call “Griff”(Jon) will be introduced …
So why was Trystane painting those eye slabs for Myrcella if he was sailing back to Dorne?
My own goes to Ser Twenty Goodmen who made it from Winterfell to Meereen during the off-season.
There are so many problems with the Trystane scene. Trystane is royalty, why did no servants bring his luggage into the red Keep and give him a room immediately? Second, if he stayed on the boat, why does he have no guards? Third, the wide shot of his boat shows it alone in the harbor, how did they get on board without swimming? Fourth, he is a trained fighter, why would be turn his back on an armed foe? This whole scene is garbage.
He didn’t go into the Red Keep because Jaime sent him back.
Hi GOO! I understand if you need to have ads on the show – I was a regular listener of Mugglecast and the godaddy ads etc. didn’t stop me from being a fan. However, with this GOO episode, they really took me out of it considering they were completely out of the ordinary – there hadn’t been any so far (except for that one time a while ago) and now they just appeared without a ‘warning’. It felt out of character because I remember lots of mentions about how important it was to you that GOO stayed ad-free. I thought that was the reason why you’ve introduced Patreon sponsorships (speaking of which – you also mentioned a season 2 commentary as something that would result from Patreon at one point). It probably won’t make me stop listening but tbh the seat geek one was just irritating – we all know it’s an ad, so just treat it like one. Sorry guys. Love everything else.
Arthur,
I don’t think he Dornish like the Dragon masters very much. If anyone, Doran might have worked with Deny. Now that he’s dead…it doesn’t look good.
Jack Bauer 24,
Did I miss that? And how did the Snakes get on the boat in the first place? Wasn’t he on the same ship that sailed out with Myrcella and Jaime at the end of Season 5? If so, all 3 snakes were shown on the dock as it sailed away. How did they get on board?
I think this was just a sloppy plot line that cause a little hole. Same with where did the hounds go during the Sansa scene. They were there then next thing you know, they weren’t. These hounds were inches from Sansa’s face so I doubt they would’ve backed down if the leash was let go.
Just FYI about Areo Hotah….he was stabbed in the kidney and any man, no matter how big, will go down and not get up again with that kind of wound. It’s immediately and completely incapacitating (hell you can take someone out and even kill them by just punching them in the kidney, much less stabbing them).
Dree,
IMO they probably got a boat for themselves, it’s very plausible given the situation in Dorne. Trystane never got out of that boat in KL, that’s why the Sand Snakes were able to reach him.
Akash Singh,
It’s little things like this that make it extremely hard for me to watch scripted dramas.
http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/objects-from-dorne
You can read the letter that Jaime sent to Doran there and he says he was sending Trystane back to Dorne because Cersei would have had him killed.
My own goes to Davos- “I would like some mutton.” He knows his priorities.
I agree. I think this can be the only viable path for Dorne as a whole at this point. The question of who rules Dorne in the aftermath of the past episode is a fair one. The way Doran’s guards deferred to Ellaria’s actions leads me to believe that it will be she and Tyene that rule going forward. Tyene is, after all, half Martell. It wouldn’t surprise me if the next time we see Dorne, it is in the context of being courted as an ally and/or landing point for Daenerys.
Meanwhile, I expect we will see Nymeria and Obara working against the Lannisters in King’s Landing. Perhaps it’s one of them who gets Tommen…
My thoughts on that matter are that the plan to murder Jon was well thought out and planned in advance. No doubt Thorne and the other anti-Jon Brothers hoped that he would never return from Hardhome, but when he did, he set their plan into motion.
My estimation of their plan is this: Thorne will open the gates to Jon and the Wildlings, even though he hates the very notion, so that he can say he followed every one of Jon’s orders to the point of no return (i.e. the Wildlings allowed to pass the Wall). The actual murder was the easy part. Using Benjen to get Jon into an ambush site was simple. They left his body lying out in the snow under a ‘TRAITOR’ sign as a message to the members of the Night’s Watch who felt loyalty to the Lord Commander a higher priority than drastic action to prevent the Wildlings from passing the Wall. He then called the gathering at the Shieldhall to explain his actions to those same men. From what we’ve seen in “The Red Woman,” it seems to have worked.
But then there are guys like Edd, Jon’s staunchest allies and friends, who he must have known he could never explain his actions to. It’s unlikely he planned to have them hole up in a room with Ghost, Davos, and Jon’s body, but now that they have, it gives him a perfect opportunity to eliminate his most immediate threat and look reasonable in doing so. If they refuse to relent without bloodshed, he looks like the reasonable one by offering amnesty and having it rejected.
The things he did not anticipate and the most important thing that “The Red Woman” did not show us was this: HOW did Dolorous Edd manage to get out of Castle Black??? From the sequence of events, it seems likely that he got out of the castle while the meeting in the Shieldhall was going on, but you would think that Thorne would have someone watching Edd’s every move, as he is Jon’s closest friend. I would have loved to have seen a scene establishing how he was able to leave, even if it was totally unmolested.
Overlooking that, and the likely belief that the Wildlings wouldn’t be willing to fight for Jon, will certainly doom Thorne and the mutineers. But I think they definitely had an elaborate plan in place to assassinate Jon and assume command of the Watch.
Same for me on the adds. It was weird. I remember they said that they didn’t want any adds. It’s okay to change your mind just changes the show a little and after five years it is weird to have that kind of change all of a sudden. I am debating no longer supporting on patreon because I thought by supporting I was helping contribute to an add free show. I kind of don’t even remember the rest of the ep because it was so weird and I kept thinking about it. But that is just me. Glad to see I wasn’t alone. Still love you all!!!!!
My very first own goes to Brienne kneeling before Sansa.
“There sits the only Queen I mean to bend my knee to. The Queen in The North!!”
Great episode again guys – not bothered about the ads – free folk gotta eat!!
Own goes to Tyrion for inadvertently and briefly channelling Fat Bastard from Austin Powers “I eat babies!!!”
Yeah I suspect this is the case. Perhaps Ellaria is supposed to be Arianne
There is a strong suspicion on my part that Ellaria and SS are being lumped in with the “bastard power theme” but when Dany = Aegon it’ll probably be some kind og “Girl power” thing too
Best specific moment goes to Sansa and Brienne
Character of the episode is Ser Davos being a boss from the very start
Performance of the episode goes to Ser Alliser (Owen Teale) for a great speech once again. Everyone is set up as Jon fans but in terms of the whole thing being “struggle” he genuinely believes his perspective
In terms of meta
eg LF talking about how people die to SR as a foreshadowing of Tywins death
Think there might be some thematic angle to “She’s a Witch – cut off her head” was aimed at Dany but may apply to Mel perhaps…
Dany also makes a point of alluding to the Asshai Witch (same place as Mel) with her “Sun sets in the East” thing and also saying “I burnt his body” in reference to Khal Drogo but perhaps this also a reference regarding Jon (I reckon he is resurrected when Mel burns him personally)
Food for Thought
Loved the “5 best things in life”/”What have the Romans ever done for us” Khal Moro + Bloodriders scene
RedTeamReview made a good point that it was kind of a discussion about Emilia Clarkes contract
Davyth Stark,
It’s really not that I don’t understand the need for ads but like Sara said – the main argument for Patreon sponsorship was always that it will keep the podcast ad-free. And all of the sudden this seems to have changed quite heavily.
Zack posing all the good questions. How the show handled the murder of Doran and Trystane goes against everything that George stands for IMHO. Yes, people die all the time who are innocent and noble. But here these characters are just used to mop up a subpar storyline and to attest how ‘awesome’ Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are.
They are not. They are unadulterated villains, and even worse, they’re one-dimensional villains. These are not strong women, these are psychopaths.
Complete waste of potentially interesting characters and of a potentially rich storyline. I’m quite sure that they altered their plans for Dorne after last season. The limited stuff that was set up last season was just thrown into the bin.
Angela,
Davos hs been on point this episode. Clearly, he was testing his hypothesis that Thorne’s offer was a farce by lobbing a ridiculous demand at him that if agreed would show that Thorne’s main priority was getting that door open at all costs. Bravo!
could be the case, but it’s a bit convenient then having a don’t stand up and attack people till you’ve got inside their castle trigger. after all in hardhome the nights kings raises his arms and up everyone gets to be his new blue eyed boys
You asked what the point of Doran and Trystane were. Well first if you’ve got plans for Dorne in the show you can’t completely cut out the Martells from the beginning. Second Myrcella is never in Dorne without Trystane. It’s that simple. I gotta say I don’t like how they’ve turned the Sand Snakes and Ellaria into villains.
Mazzie,
I looked on Patreon and we are still nearly a $1,000 a month away from the season 2 commentary. The goal is $2,000 and right now we are only contributing roughly $1,006 each month. Who knows when we will get it.
Team, we thank you for the patience and understanding with the inclusion of ad reads on the podcast. Podcasts have ads. It’s something we’ve always avoided, not having the experience to match podcast business skills with our hope to do a good job with the show, but after 322 unsponsored episodes we’d like to try something new. The goal is to maintain and grow time for the podcast in our work and personal lives. Patreon has been a great help, and we will continue to provide bonus content to the show’s bannermen. We’ll work to do a better job with reads — it’s hard. Producing now 323 episodes for several consistent weeks in several consistent years has not been easy, but it has been incredibly fun and we do not want to stop, slow things down, or do less in the community.
We have a hell of a lot show topics to cover/recover on this week’s next episode, keep your thoughts and feelings coming.
I am in total agreement. Davos saw Throne’s BS coming a mile away. I loved Davos in this episode.
Game Of Owns,
Thanks for the reply! As I said, I understand why ads will help you keep the podcast going and it won’t stop me from being a fan. It would have been good to have a small mention of what has changed and why because for someone who has been listening to years of ‘this podcast is ad-free’ it just felt a little strange to have a sudden change.
I’m really looking forward to the next GOO episode – on the topic of the Dorne situation and Trystane on the boat, I’m sure you’ll have seen the link to the note Jaime wrote (neat handwriting! and I thought spelling it ‘neices’ was great attention to detail and his dyslexia) which wasn’t shown during the episode but which puts him and his actions into a very different light – working towards peace and as little bloodshed as possible, not assuming the worst of everyone and trying to go the diplomatic route (against Cersei). I think this is a pretty big deal as it may indicate that his mindset differs greatly from what was shown in this first episode.
#jaimesredemption2k16
I predict Melisandre will have a prophetic dream/nightmare in the coming episode after her fragile night, which will inform her of Jon Snow’s significance and begin his resurrection…
Long answer for your first question – I’ll keep the second shorter. 🙂
1. What do you believe is the significance of Melisandre’s reveal?
From the moment she entered the scene in Season 2, Melisandre was brimming with confidence, with fire, with belief. No character appeared to be more certain of who they were and what they needed to do than she did. Now, the foundation of her faith has been shaken. Everything she has been working for in her long, long life appears to have been a lie.
In allowing her glamour to fall, she is casting aside the final illusion. She needs to look her true self in the eye at that moment, and see if there is anything there. What she sees in that mirror only reaffirms her despair. So she crawls into bed, exhausted and defeated. The Red Woman is at the lowest point that we’ve ever seen her.
Of course, we’ve heard a Red Priest give an account of his own lowest moment before in this show. Remember what Thoros of Myr said in Season 3, Episode 6 (“The Climb”) – to Melisandre, in fact.
“I’ve always been a terrible priest. Drank too much rum. Fucked all the whores in King’s Landing. It’s a terrible thing to say, but by the time I came to Westeros I didn’t believe in our Lord. I decided that he, that all the gods, were stories we told the children to make them behave. So I wore the robes and every now and then I’d recite the prayers, but it was just for show. A spectacle for the locals. Until the Mountain drove a lance through this one’s heart. I knelt beside his cold body and I said the old words. Not because I believed in them, but because he was my friend, and he was dead. And they were the only words I knew. And for the first time in my life, the Lord replied. Beric’s eyes opened and I knew the truth. Our god is the one true god.”
Will Melisandre experience a similar epiphany, and have her faith in the Lord of Light restored? Or will she decide that she has lived long enough, and pass what fire remains within her ancient body on to another. Maybe that person can carry on the fight that she has been fighting for so long?
Let’s just say that when she stood over Jon’s cold body in this episode said “I saw him in the flames, fighting at Winterfell,” I got the strong feeling that her vision may yet come true, even if she doesn’t live to see it. She may yet walk along the battlements of Winterfell and see Bolton banners lowered to the ground as they burn. But perhaps it will not be her eyes that behold such sights. They may be Jon’s eyes, once she opens them again.
2. What is next for…. ? (OK, I lied about keeping this short).
Davos and company
Davos, Ghost, and the loyalist crew hold down the fort until night falls, at which point Thorne follows through on his ultimatum to break down the door. A battle ensues, Davos and the others appear to be doomed until Wun Wun smashes down the Castle Black gates. Edd, Tormund, and the wildlings storm the castle. Some of the mutineers are killed, but most are rounded up and captured, including Alliser. With Team Jon in charge at Castle Black once again, Melisandre is free to work her magic (but perhaps not in this episode).
Oh, and #GhostKillsOlly2K16. But not before he sees Jon brought back to life. 😉
Arya’s situation in Braavos
The Waif returns to visit Arya the next day, as she promised. Arya gets badly beaten again … until she discovers a new edge. Maybe Bran (returning this week!) reaches out to her. Maybe her latent warging abilities are activated. Maybe she just learns how to listen. Whatever the case, she finally manages to fend off the Waif, and even land a few blows. The Waif grudgingly admits that she’s ready for the next stage in her training, and allows her to return to the House of Black and White. Jaqen tells her that she’s on her second and final chance. She remains blind for now, however.
Tyrion’s rule in Meereen
In the aftermath of the Meereenese fleet being torched, Tyrion gets more bad news about the state of the city. Hoping to change their fortunes, he pays a visit to the crypts to see Rhaegal and Viserion. He gets closer than he probably should. But while the dragons roar and breathe some fire, they surprisingly decide not to kill him. Emboldened by this close encounter with the fire, Tyrion comes up with an idea to use the Red Priests who have been infiltrating the city to quell the unruly populace.
Also, he drinks. And knows things.
The Dornish knot
Ellaria and the Sand Snakes fade into the background for a little while as they prepare Dorne for war. But they reemerge to strike before the end of the season. Or perhaps someone comes to them, seeking an alliance.
The royals in King’s Landing
Myrcella is laid to rest in the Sept of Baelor. Cersei is not allowed to attend her daughter’s funeral because of her impending trial, so Jaime stands vigil. Jaime learns what the High Sparrow did to Cersei, and confronts him. The High Sparrow gets a look at Jaime’s dark side, and is shaken ever so slightly off his pious game. The two men stare one another down, but no blood is shed … yet.
Meanwhile, Cersei’s despair starts to wane. She becomes determined to to strike back at her enemies, and protect Tommen at all costs. FrankenMountain remains beside her, waiting for the moment she will choose violence.
Sansa / Bri / Pod / Theon / Ramsay
Brienne tells Sansa that she encountered Arya in the Vale, and that Arya refused her service. Sansa gains further strength from the knowledge that another one of her siblings is still alive – Bran, Rickon, and now Arya! They continue north to Castle Black, unaware that Jon is still dead at the moment and the Wall has become an epicenter of conflict.
Ramsay, meanwhile, learns that his hunting party has failed to recapture Sansa and Theon. Reasoning that they are likely heading north to the Wall, he suggests that the Boltons could storm Castle Black. Roose is wary of this plan, but doesn’t dismiss it. They consult with the new Lord of House Karstark, who supports the Boltons because Robb Stark executed his father.
Dany, Dothraki, the detectives
Dany and the Dothraki continue on to Vaes Dothrak, with Jorah and Daario in close pursuit. I don’t think we’ll see them in this episode.
Dorne:
I think Dorne will fill part of (f)Aegon/Connington’s role for the books. Create unrest in the south. Randyll Tarly has to react, and even more stuff distracting those on the Iron Throne from the real problem up north…
Meereen:
So who is the Harpy? At this point I am willing to consider Littlefinger as a legit contender. I really cannot see how it would be a known character from Dany’s court. Maybe it’s Jorah’s slaver (what was his name again) or one of the newly cast members, but somehow that sounds cheap to me…
1 Bran will appear to Mel in a dream and tell her to cheer up and get her act together. The three eye raven is her dad.
2. Davos will get his mutton and the heads of the mutineers.
3. The sparrow will try to arrest Jaime which will not go well.
4. Team Sansa will form a plan to take back the north…
I agree with most of what you’ve said with regards to Castle Black, however, and I’ve also seen a few others mention your point as well, I’m not quite sure I could see it going down this way. Working on the (almost certain) assumption that the wildlings storm Castle Black and take it, they will be the main force there. Of course, they will be in cahoots with Edd, Davos and Jon’s body, but wildlings aren’t exactly the type to take prisoners so I don’t see them sparing Thorne, even if Edd and most of TeamHalfFrozenBody weren’t out for blood. If (when) Thorne dies, I expect it to be in the heat of battle (hopefully we’ll get Tormund vs Thorne round 2).
Name *,
Seeing Tormund fight Thorne again would be awesome. Those two have history – it’d be nice to see them tangle again before Thorne’s end.
Otherwise, you’re right – I think Thorne is a major candidate to die when the wildlings attack. I just think it would be interesting if he lived long enough to see Jon be resurrected. That’s what I think will happen with Olly, since he was Jon’s steward and the betrayal was more personal for him than the others. Having to look him in the eye again after that would be an interesting moment for them both. The other named mutineers – Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyck – could easily be killed at any time.
I don’t feel all that strongly about it either way, however. I guess we’ll see!
Yeah I love you guys but the ads threw me off. How about an explanation? The first one wasn’t that bad and it didn’t bother me, but the SeatGeek add crap turned me off enough to turn off the podcast. As Mazzie noted above, if it’s an ad, treat it like an ad. And give us a warning that things have changed, please.
We did introduce and explain advertising prior to including it into the show, Episode 322. Again, we can’t thank you enough for the support. New episode tonight!
Patreon Update: 144 supporters (10 less than before season 6) and its down $100 each month. i looks forward to your thoughts on season 6 but this show has changed from what I thought it was (no blame is being put just stating my thoughts were different and I view the show differently) and I have decided to no longer support. Still love you and will always listen through iTunes!