Episode 339 – Battle of the Bastards
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Bastard, meet Bastard. Dragon, meet Kraken. Let’s do this.
Last night, we announced a brand new GoT/ASOIAF convention. ACOIAF is now Con of Thrones! The Gods are good. More on Con of Thrones here.
We need your Owns for this episode. Have fun with that! đ
Discussion Topics
Winded from War
Meereen
Drowning in bodies
Sansa and the plan
A kick in the mouth
A Northern strategy
The wooden stag
A new alliance
The Con is Coming
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Hodor !
Sansa’s decision. As you say, at what cost to accept LF’s help? The battle’s time was also set. “We can’t get trapped by a storm,” Jon said. So do they wait for a force that may be coming? You can argue Jon needed the intel. You can argue Jon was an idiot of a commander and got way more of his men killed than should’ve died had he stuck to the plan.
But how sick was Ramsay when the Night’s King is more honorable.
Great episode guys! The show was just so visceral.
I have to say that Sansa is a hound whisperer: she turned Ramsey’s hounds against him, maybe she whispered to the bloodhounds way back at start of the season and that’s why they disappeared and of course everyone’s favourite The Hound.
I’m really looking forward to next week for the resolution of the North.
flintstonewielder,
No more, Hodor.
Sansa has taken a beating for not letting Jon in on her raven communication with the Vale. Let’s not forget what she went through: her father was decapitated in front of her, she dealt with Joffery’s boat load of crazy, she was married to Tyrion against their will, she gets an out by Little Finger, of all people. Then she was married to Ramsey Bolton, after serving her time with crazy Aunt Lysa….who tried to sail her through the moon door. I am going to say, and agree that no one can protect anyone.
Own decision was really tough for this one. It was either Tormund for actually surviving or the dragons for finally busting out of detention… but I think I’ll stick to my decision I posted on Twitter: my own goes to Ramsay’s puppies for turning a new leaf and becoming the hounds of justice!
Gotfan,
Not so quick on the free pass for Sansa. You forget the part that Sansa and Littlefinger played in Ned’s capture and death.
A twist might still be coming where Sansa/LF take WF and force Jon back to the wall?
If the show runners care about fans they need to have a camera on Theon’s face when he learns that the Starks have regained WF and Ramsey is dead. Just to see his reaction.
What role did Sansa have in Ned’s death and capture on the show?
Fuchsia,
She betrayed him to her then future husband Joffrey thinking that Joffrey would let him take the black.
Here is my whole take on this. It’s just mine so of course everyone can agree or disagree we all have opinions, thank the gods. I love listening to this pod cast and love the discussions on the differing threads. I whole heartily agree and disagree with many. I love and shake my head many times at this fandom. It’s why I don’t comment a lot because I try to just respect people’s views and by interjecting mine I don’t want to feel like I’m slamming ones opinion, it’s easier to just do the head shaking thing, anyways.
Jon was begging Sansa for info, begging. He straight up asked what to do. She had no reply, she had possible info that I feel she should have revealed. Do I hate her for this, no. I do though put as much of the blood on her hands as Jon’s. Whether or not she knew they would come, she knew she asked. Whether or not it would have mattered to Jon, who knows. He was worried about storms and other things, plus a little cocky I think knowing how he faired in other battles. With that said he and Davos had a plan, and this is where we jump on Jon’s supposed stupidity.
How many of you have siblings? My older brother passed not long ago and I can tell you without any question I would have made every single attempt to my last breathe to stop that from happening period the end. If it meant me going and him staying so be it. I would do that for my children, my parents, family, and several of my closest friends. Jon acted out of a loyalty that I think many of us have.
Once he made that decision and saw where he was, he accepted his death. The problem comes that all those men that we’re following him had that same loyalty. Jon fucked up, Davos and Tormmund could have and should have let him die, but it’s that love and loyalty. It’s the fact that that man has risked all for them and they decided to go to him. “Go to your commander”. War is hell, it got that little saying deservingly. Things drawn up, don’t always go the way things drawn up should. Man and woman are fallible. Those men chose to go after Jon out of love and loyalty, my point the blame, if that’s unfortunately what we are really calling it, is there for everyone. I understand the human condition to have to place blame, I just don’t always agree when we do.
I think there are going to be some serious ramifications for both Jon and Sansa’s actions. Will they trust, what will Jon’s perceived leadership weakness, to those not at the battle, cost him, what will Sansa have to give up. Or, what more is Sansa ready to do. I know we are all eventually going to find out so I will be waiting eagerly with all of you to see. I do feel this though, Jon is a hero, Jon loves his family, Jon didn’t yell hey come save my dumb ass, those who see what he is made that choice. I’m up in the air with Sansa, I’m hoping she is not lost due to all she has been through. I’m hoping she can learn to trust, but will understand if she will never be able to again. If that happens I’m afraid she is doomed. Jon and his heart could very well be also.
redxgod,
Aw c’mon, dude. She was 13. She thought that would save her dad.
I have mixed feelings about Sansa’s actions in this episode too, but that’s not fair. She’s not some evil schemer from way back. I don’t know why she held back the info about the Vale. Actually, I don’t believe there’s any excuse for it – it left Jon and the rest as fodder.
But you know what? Jon messed up big time by falling for Ramsay’s ploy, and contributed to that carnage too. I love him – anyone who might recognise my name from posting here would know he’s my fave – but Starks gonna Stark. Look at Rickard and Brandon, Ned and Arya. Thorne was right. Their house name should be “We have good hearts. It will get us all killed.”
Stimpy Stark,
That was a beautiful comment. Agree with everything.
Arrggh.. doesn’t anyone realise that if the Vale army lined up with Jon’s army.. Ramsay would wait inside Winterfell for 3 years or however long they can withstand a siege.. winter would come and Ramsay would win, or actually the Night King would win. Sansa didn’t tell Jon , cause a) She doesn’t agree with Jon on his choice of advisors b) she isn’t going to say hey I have an army.. then it doesn’t show up, “sorry about that Jon” c) she doesn’t trust anyone anymore, not even Jon to an extent.. but especially not Littlefinger.
Sansa not telling Jon about the Vale is what leads to victory. Littlefingers raven could of reached her that very morning for all we know.
iridium,
You said it right thinking back to what Thorne said to Jon. Also, I agree with Stimpy Stark that you would do ANYTHING to save the ones you love. He did mess up, but I understood why immediately. When Tormund said, “Don’t,” I had already said it aloud knowing he was going to do it. I understood that loyalty.
I love Sansa’s character and she has been through so much. Does she suffer from PTSD? Probably. One of the “side-effects” of PTSD can be not being honest for fear of rejection or fear of recrimination. A lot of people don’t realize that. Weighing that against the love of family, I still think she should have told Jon there was a chance LF would appear, but we have to remember that she and Jon weren’t close at all AND she is her mother’s daughter. She doesn’t fail to point out he’s a bastard. They have BOTH made mistakes. My fear at this point is her being played by LF again..not sure what is going to happen between them, but I hope she doesn’t get manipulated again.
Interesting points.
A few things I’d like to add; I think we can mostly agree on when it comes to Sansa withholding the possibility of the Vale army from Jon, it was done so that their arrival came as a surprise to the viewer. Well maybe the casual viewer anyway. It still doesnât make sense, and the show has not (yet) bothered to provide any real insight into why she decided to withhold that information from the beginning when she met with LF. At this point itâs anybodyâs guess why she didnât tell him. Iâve read a lot of plausible reasons (some ridiculous ones too), but none of them are clearly spelled out on the show which is weird. You donât keep the audience guessing about the motives of such a major character like Sansa, especially not so you can execute such a predictable plot point. I think this was a disservice to her character.
Anyway that being said, I think people are letting their hang ups with her lack of sharing convince them that telling Jon would have made a difference and that sheâs somehow responsible for them losing so many men. Her sharing that piece of information with Jon would not have changed anything, or at least it shouldnât have if weâre to believe that Jon is a competent strategist or has a remote ability to lead an army. Like you said Sansa had no clue if the vale army would even show. Telling Jon âHey maybe we might have some more men, I donât know but letâs wait and see.â when Jon made it clear that both time and the weather were not on their side would not do much to convince him or anyone that it was a good idea. She couldn’t even convince him to wait for the possibility of more Northern men, I highly doubt she’d succeed in convincing him to wait for the possibility of the Vale.
I was listening to another podcast and one of the hosts suggested that Jon could have adjusted his strategy for the *possibility that the Vale army would show up and help, if only Sansa had told him. After thinking about it for a minute I canât say I agree. Like Sansa, I know nothing about battles, but I donât think it makes sense to plan for what could be. I think Jon kind of made that point when he said that that they should fight with the army they have, meaning they come up with a strategy for only what is certain, not hypotheticals and possibilities, especially ones that seem so unlikely. Anyway, Jon predictably threw all strategy to the wayside when he saw Rickon soâŚ. Yeah in the end none of that even mattered.
You could even argue that her telling him about the the possibility of the Vale army showing up would subconsciously alter his approach going into battle, so given Sansaâs lack of certainty, her not telling Jon might have been the right way to go at that point late in the game right before the battle. But to be honest itâs very clear to me that this was just a plot device to keep the audience guessing if the Knights of the Vale would show up at all, and I hate that they had to make Sansaâs motives appear dubious just to do it.
What part did Sansa play in getting Ned captured? Sansa was a naive 13 yr old girl in the first season of the show being manipulated left and right by adults and people way more cunning and ruthless than she could even conceive of being. Are we really blaming Sansa for what happened to Ned?
Also why would Sansa conspire with LF to take Winterfell from Jon? She does not trust LF, seeing as how he was directly responsible for her being in Ramsey’s clutches. She may have used his army (well technically its more her army than his tbh), but I don’t take that to mean she trusts him, or that she would want him anywhere near Winterfell once it’s all said and done.
And Sansa is not conspiring against Jon. I don’t know why that seems to be such a popular theory. Her not being completely trusting and forthcoming with him does not mean she has any ill will towards him.
Stimpy Stark,
Beautiful comment.
Sacred Lime,
She can still tell him about the Vale army and keep it a secret from Ramsay. Simply, send Jon’s army to draw Ramsay out and then send the Vale to attack like they did on the show.
Problem solved.
My own goes to Lyanna Mormont’s stink eye face
http://i.amz.mshcdn.com/6WCWxEFHkY2ZPLnE8oAs8dTmd28=/1200×630/https%3A%2F%2Fblueprint-api-production.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fuploads%2Fstory%2Fthumbnail%2F12111%2FGoTs_Lyanna_Mormont_shade.jpg
To the bolded point, I also want to add that there’s the fact that Sansa doesn’t trust LF. Even if she had gotten word a bit earlier that LF would help them, would it be wise for her to really take his word for it? Would it be wise for her and Jon to form any kind of dependency on LF and the Vale at any point?
I’ve seen people talk a lot about Sansa not trusting Jon enough to be honest with him and that’s fair, but I think what’s overlooked is how Sansa’s distrust of LF is probably the biggest factor in why she can’t seem to be honest with Jon. Sansa understands how risky a move it is letting LF in, in even the smallest way. LF will come in and exploit any and all vulnerabilities, and I love Jon but I don’t think it would be hard for LF to manipulate him. What’s that quote that LF said about the Starks in S1, something about them being hot headed and being slow thinkers? In some ways Jon is a Stark through and through.
Ser Not Appearing in this Series,
I did not see little Lyanna after the battle I hope she is still good. Let her deal with Littlefinger from now on. That would be fun to watch.
Gotfan,
What does her going through all that have anything to do with not wanting to be honest with the brother she recently ran to, embraced and seemed very relieved to see? What changed? Littlefinger “reminding” her Jon’s only half-brother? So all of a sudden she can’t trust him because he’s not fully her blood? That must be it.
Own to Little John & Tormund going one on one. It just needed the guitar solo from “Beat It.” #battleofthebeards #gingerftw #wishbriennecouldseemenow
Stimpy Stark,
I just want to say that was a very nice post, I enjoyed reading it. Glad you shared your thoughts on the matter đ
Two of Sansa’s tormentors have meet gruesome deaths , Joffrey and Ramsey. Littlefinger will be next, she might not have a list like Arya but she won’t forgive or forget. I can’t see her marrying again unless it’s true love with a man that doesn’t want “lady Stark” only Sansa.
The Kiss Jon gives her in the preview for the grand finale looks like a judas kiss. He might forgive but he won’t forget. He is flawsome (has flaws but still awesome) but he knows from the night watch brothers that enemy’s can be those you think are on your side.
If Jon and Arya are reunited in the finale , I don’t mind waiting the months till the next season.
Niamh,
The big question is does Sansa turn her attention on the Freys with the Vale army right away. I think Jon will want to unite the north first and prepare for the war to come.
Redford
The Freys are meant to be getting their just deserts next week. Looking forward to seeing that .
Niamh,
From who? The BwB? You think Arya made it there already? I hope she brings some wildfire to burn them all down.
I just hope word travels to all(especially Arya & Theon) that WF has been recaptured by Jon & Sansa,
Own goes to the showrunners for the splendid overhead shot of Jon centered in the frame after digging himself out from underneath the pile of wildlings. To me, that shot was a bizarro version of when all of the slaves were holding Dany up at the end of Mhysa. Coincidence?
Ser Balduran,
It was horrible and absolutely fantastic scene. I thought it was almost a ‘re-birth scene’ or like Jon coming back from the dead again…..He must have some serious PTSD issues.
Sorry, can I just clarify here – are you saying Jon is giving Sansa a Judas Kiss? As in he’ll betray her? Forgive me, but that strikes me as a really unusual prediction based on everything we know of Jon’s character. That would be pretty much the least likely outcome, I would think. His experience in the Night’s Watch has not made him any less honourable and devoted to his family – we literally just saw the strength of his devotion this episode. He risked everything to save Rickon. The sight of Sansa was what snapped him out of his animalistic rage, because he realised she needed the satisfaction of dealing the final blow.
So, I’m really struggling with the idea that Jon would betray Sansa. I don’t think he would even betray Lady Catelyn, whose attitude to him was openly antagonistic, were she in Sansa’s place. It’s just not in him. He’s so like Ned Stark, even now, after everything he’s been through, it’s both alarming and admirable.
There’s nothing wrong with having a unique opinion, but I’d be really interested to hear why you’d think that was the case.
(For the record, I don’t think Sansa will betray Jon either).
I believe that there is sometimes too much of an autopsy run on why people do what they do, when many times – decisions are made purely out of emotion or even logic at the time. This is true in real life as well. If you think about it, many decisions can come to you and you have to make it now….such as being proposed to on the Jumbotron. How much pressure is that? Maybe had you had time to think about it, you wouldn’t want to marry that person or not like that. Of course that doesn’t kill armies, but it many times kills the person inside.
Jon made a decision in a white anger moment. Sansa made a decision based on what she felt she had to do. No shame or blame on either side. The objective was not to see how many men were still standing at the end of the engagement, the objective was to take back Winterfell. Guess what? Mission accomplished.
Would it have been “nice” to have more of an army left at the end of the day? Sure. But it is WAR…not nice head games. In war, for example, what happened on the beaches in Normandy in 1944 – Do you think the Americans thought…ooooh could be bad idea, we will lose many troops. They did what they had to do, objective – take the beach. Mission accomplished at a huge sacrifice.
To me, the Own is focus on what was done that got them to the goal of taking back Winterfell. Job done, maybe not “well done”, but certainly done. (also Ramsay lost a ton of men too at the end of the day, war is hell – so General Sherman said.)
redxgod,
It seemed to me that Jon had three confrontations with his mortality.
With Melisandre, he asked not to be brought back.
As he faced the charging Boltons, he faced and accepted a death he thought inevitable.
When he emerged from the body mountain, he was reborn.
His gasping for breath recalled his resurrection by Melisandre, but this time it was him choosing life, fighting for it. When Melisandre resurrected him, he didn’t choose.
Will this change him going forward? That remains to be seen.
iridium
No , I don’t think Jon has it in him to betray Sansa , but to me looking at the preview it reminds me of a judas kiss. If it was anyone else doing it I’d be writing a obituary to them. The dynamics between Jon and Sansa is interesting. She was so relieved to see him , but since then she goaded him in to battle to save “our brother Rickon” . Sent a Raven to Littlefinger without telling him. Told him on the eve of battle that Rickon is as good as dead and still doesn’t tell him about Littlefinger. She is doing a Cersei thinking she knows best and better .
Redxgod
From the preview of next week , were the Freys put themselves on equal footing with the Lannisters , you just know it’s not going to go their way .
I struggle to find reason why Jon and the remaining Free Folk shouldn’t be enraged at Sansa and why Jon shouldn’t have trust issues with her for the rest of their lives. He and the Wildling army loyal to him were almost slaughtered in brutal fashion. Would this still have occurred had he known about the potential of the Vale? Maybe. Maybe not. Making it worse is the tent scene before the battle. Jon comes right out and asks “when will we get more men”. Perfect opportunity. No response. All of the excuses I’ve heard about why Sansa wouldn’t tell him I don’t find compelling. It makes little logical sense why you wouldn’t tell the individual who is commanding the military attack about the potential for thousands of mounted knights as reinforcements. Even if you want to argue it wouldn’t have changed Jon’s strategy, it still makes no logical sense to withhold this information.
Unless a twist is coming in the final seasons where Sansa is so far lost that she turns her back on everyone. Then it all does start to make sense. They did play up the “if you say so” line from Lyanna Mormont when Sansa said she’ll always be a Stark. An interesting addon line to include if just random and not a foreshadow of anything.
Of course it could be as simple as…we really screwed up with Sansa in season 5 and want her to be the powerful heroine in season 6. So, overlook the illogical happenings.
My own has to go to Ghost for being the only direwolf (aside from MIA Nymeria) smart enough to keep himself alive for the wars to come.
Second place own for Zack hanging out in shady internet cafes( love Mr Robot) #QyburnsQandyQinterntQafe
I don’t think Jon’s plan would have worked well anyway. They dug trenches to prevent Ramsay from performing a pincer move on them. Which is what happened before the Vail attacked. This was a classic Roman military move and was used countless times during their battles with the Persian Empire. I’m not sure what they used as inspiration for this battle, but it seemed very Roman in nature. Regardless, Ramsay had many, many more longbows at his disposal. With a 200 yard shooting distance, Snow’s troops would have been sitting ducks. If anything the charge helped the Starks. Bolton sent many more troops in, but sacrificed them by continuing his barrage with arrows during the battle. Meaning he was killing his own men at a clip of 2:1. I get it, it was done on purpose that way to show his ruthlessness, but if John and Davos had taken only 50 men on horses and hidden them in the Wolfswood to flank Ramsay it would have been enough to break the pincer that held them. At that point the battle was fairly even based on the what we were seeing on camera. It would have been either a toss up or advantage Stark since many of the Bolton men had long spears and shields which are pretty much useless in hand-to-hand combat without their shields locked.
Blame Snow if you want to, but any advantage Ramsay had by provoking him to attack was lost the minute he started killing more of his men with arrows. A little extra thought by Jon to stash a few men off the battlefield would have helped as well. Could have used a bit of advice from his brother Robb on that one.
Sinead,
I had the same impression and even more. I think, when Jon gave that little nod before he drew the sword, he accepted not only his death but also the possibility of the repeated resurrection. It should be noted that in GoT resurrection is presented not as a second chance to live a happy life but rather as a heave burden of responsibility to fight a hopeless war forever. It’s like Thorn said: he lost and he’ll rest but there won’t be any rest for Jon. But Jon has accepted that and that’s why he kept struggling even when there was no hope. And yes Jon came out of that mass of bodies truly reborn and he beat Ramsay in his own game showing that he can wield a shield as good as he can wield the sword. It’s kind of symbolic.
You are so right…I love that child…she could give LF a run for his money.
Ser Not Appearing in this Series,
I’m with you. I love that little kid!
Stimpy Stark,
I totally agree with your thoughts here, and I absolutely love the complexity. As to Sansa’s silence, I’m holding off my judgment until we know more, but one thing I’ll say: if she had told Jon, and he had waited for the Vale and begun the battle with them, he may have drawn them into the trap as well, as his own response to Rickon’s peril would have been the same.
Stimpy Stark,
I just want to join the others who have already spoken up and commend you for your post. It was beautifully reasoned and articulated. And I’m very sorry to hear about your brother.
There was a lot of talk about how effective this episode was in making you feel like you were on the ground, amidst the horror of battle. But in truth, we’re watching this on a screen, from our comfortable couches, separated from the events unfolding before us by several layers of reality. It is so easy from that position to judge what we see from our God’s Eye view, and expect all of the characters to make entirely rational decisions, completely devoid of any emotion or human fallibility. With something like this, it’s important to employ some empathy and try to place ourselves in the characters’ mindset during that tense, frightening, chaotic moment.
Specifically with regards to the Rickon issue, it is one thing to sit in a command tent the night before a battle and write your little brother off as doomed. That’s a rational perspective, and the logically correct one. It is another thing entirely to see your little brother – small, terrified, and alone – racing across the field of battle, trying desperately to reach you, while a sadistic monster trying to murder him. Trying to remain entirely cold and rational in that moment is extremely hard, if not impossible.
Jon may know that Rickon is likely to die either way. But if he rides out, there is a chance that he might be able to save this person that he loves. He took that chance. As you say, when Rickon falls, Jon knows that he made a mistake. But he had to try, especially in that moment. If he hadn’t, he wouldn’t have been the character that we know and love.
I don’t have a brother, but I have two sisters that I love very much. Mercifully, none of us have ever been in such a situation, and I pray that we never will. But if we had been, I fully believe would have gone and tried to save them. Maybe, from the perspective of cold narrative logic, that makes me a bad military commander and a sentimental fool (in fact, I’m fairly confident I’m both of those things). But I would have gone. I wouldn’t have been able to stand by.
Yes, Ramsay and many men could hang out inside Winterfell for a long time. Realistically though, there’s no way 6,000 men could stay in there for very long without a means of renewing their supplies. Hell, I don’t even know if 6,000 men would FIT inside. Probably with the godswood and all but probably not comfortably.
With the Vale army it appeared Jon would have had a larger force and probably a much healthier Wun Wun to attack directly. It would have been a less exciting battle to watch but with a giant to kick the doors in a similar result seems probable.
Jared,
God you guys made me tear up a little. I agree with everything you said.
Jared
And your post is also wonderful. I completely agree that it was in character and entirely understandable for Jon to do what he did. In my attempt to argue that Sansa wasn’t evil incarnate, I may not have made it clear that I don’t think less of him at all for what happened.
I wish I could pin these two comments (yours and Stimpy’s) all over the Internet. Those who are dismissing Jon completely over his actions in this episode can’t be watching the same show.
iridium,
Agreed-Ramsay put Jon in a position where he was screwed either way–either let your men watch you let the heir die, or dash battle plan.
I don’t see where the “Jon didn’t listen to Sansa” talk comes from. Just because he couldn’t control his emotions in the moment doesn’t mean that he didn’t listen and understand what she was saying about Ramsay.
Has someone ever given you advice that you 100% understood and knew that it was wise, but in the moment where you had to make a decision concerning that advice, the emotional side of your brain took over the analytical part of your brain? This is what happened. He knew what Ramsay was doing. He knew Sansa warned him he might pull something like that. None of that mattered when he saw his little brother shot through the chest and murdered right in front of him.
On the other hand, with Sansa, her not telling Jon about having an army of mounted knights larger than Ramsays at her disposal was a calculated decision and it made no sense on any level. It wasn’t a decision made in the heat of the moment by extreme emotions. She decided to allow thousands of Wildlings and Stark bannermen to be slaughtered rather than mention this opportunity to Jon. I have no doubt that Jon would have risked the weather if it meant that they would have an assured victory. Jon only wanted to attack then, because the other option of travelling down to House Cerwyn past Winterfell or way further down to the Manderly’s, was not even close to being worth the extreme risk. Even if they somehow didn’t die in the process and convinced them to pleadge their allegiances to House Stark, they weren’t going to receive a game changing amount of men from those houses. However, if he thought there was a huge army of fresh knights that could single handedly destroy the Bolton army, I’m guessing that holding off for a day or an hour would have been worth it.
Even if Sansa wasn’t positive that Littlefinger was going to come through, why not tell Jon and they could weigh that decision of whether or not they could hold off the attack to see if the Vale army was on their way.
People say that if Ramsay knew the Vale army was coming, he would have just hid in Winterfell with his army. But A) Jon had the best siege weapon ever in Wun Wun. They could have even made him a big wooden shield/battering ram to protect him from arrows and bust down the gate with one running slam. And, just as importantly, Jon knowing about the Vale army doesn’t mean that Ramsay would have known. They could have easily concealed that until Ramsay lined their men up on the battlefield.
I don’t hate Sansa, but I certainly don’t see her decision making being any better than Jon’s here, and it’s much less understandable than Jons actions.
1) Sansa is totally to blame for not telling Jon about the reinforcements. No excuse is acceptable here.
2) Jon is not an idiot. I blame Davos more than Jon for the decision to charge. Jon was overcome with emotion and tried to save his brother without putting anyone else at risk. Davos was the one who knew the Battle plan but just decided to send the troops into the trap.
3) Why the hell did Ramsay shoot Wonwon when he had a clean shot at Jon with his back turned?
4) I’ve heard people saying that the calvary saving the day is not very game of thrones but this is exactly how ever battle on the show has ended! Every one!
5) Never run in a straight line when someone is shooting at you with a ranged weapon.
First of all, I would like to commend everyone in this thread for the civility of the discussion of Jon’s and Sansa’s actions. It’s really a pleasure to read your well-thought posts, even if I disagree with some of them. There’s so much vitriol regarding this issue on other threads and fansites. It seems that, in order to support one character’s decision they need to vilify the other. I personally don’t think Jon is “useless” or that Sansa is “evil incarnate”. I can understand their motivations even if that doesn’t mean I condone them.
I pretty much agree with what Iridium and JCDavis have said. They needed to retake Winterfell no matter how. The lives of the people in Jon’s army were doomed from the day they start recruiting. It was war, and war is always an ugly business. Does that mean I am giving Sansa a free pass for withholding the information about the army of the Vale? Certainly not, but I prefer to wait and see what happens between she and Jon (and Littlefinger). I any case, may the Father judge her justly. đ
And just to be clear, I love both Jon and Sansa.
I’m sorry but who cares that Sansa didn’t tell Jon that their was a possibility of the Knights of the Vale showing up. You guys are looking into something that is foolish. The writers of the show wanted The writers of the show wanted to show the Knights of the Vale to show up at the end of the episode, period!!! They wanted thousands of people to die in the fight and if you want to blame Sansa fine but blame Jon for acting impulsive and foolish. Jon was acting like Robb and he almost got killed again. He didn’t ask Sanda for any advice when she spent months with Ramsey to get into his mind and how to beat him. Robb ignored Catelyn and they both died for his foolishness. Sansa took a chance and ask the dude she just told to never see her again to ask for help. I’m tired of people attacking Sansa for making a move and doing something to come and criticize her for not telling Jon. Jon ain’t her daddy and she is more than capable in making her own decisions.
You guys are great, and I listen every week, but you need to bring Kate back (She Geek). Her insights were always insightful, fresh and nuanced, and took into account the broader language of the visual medium of television. Rather than remaining mired in character camps, for example, and basic character development, she helped to tease out the layers. Again, I love listening to you all, but Kate brought a charge to the proceedings which I feel is sort of missing. Like she was a necessary ingredient for this soup (which is still pretty darned good).
Here are my views on Sansa’s plan. May be it has laready been said but I have not read all the comments so apologies if I am repeating.
1- Sansa does not know that the Vale army is coming.
2- If she tells Jon they might be coming, whatever action he takes will lead to Ramsay knowing it as well. He will stay in Winterfell which is impossible to win through a siege.
3- Sansa needs Ramsay to come out into battle to have any chance of winning Winterfell.
4- As far as she is concerned, Jon may win the battle for her, he may lose or LF may rescue them.
5- She knows Rickon will die no matter what. He cannot be rescued.
6- She could have told Jon about the Vale and ordered him not to go into battle. Ramsay comes out the next day, does not see Jon, gets fishy and stays at Winterfell, not coming out to battle.
7- She could have told Jon about Littlefinger after the first time she met him in Mole’s town. At that point, she lied because she did not want to owe him and because she has hatred and no trust for him. Plus, she feels the North will still rally behind her. It does not turn out like that and she has to ask Littlefinger as an unwilling choice.
8- In the end, she won the North for the Starks. That is clear.
I wrote it on another article here, but judging Sansa so hard for her choices compared to Jon is unfair. We have a predisposition to empathize with Jon’s breaking of the rank to try to save Rickon but the blood of his men is on his hands. If they had held their position they would have lost far less men. At his point, Sansa had no idea if the Vale would have shown up. Mentioning it in the tent would have caused more confusion and waiting on the Vale that might not come leaves them with less food, more snow and less time.
She didn’t trust Jon with her anger and pride in refusing Littlefinger. Jon could have gone behind her back or overridden her personal need to not run to the person who sold her to a man who tortured and raped her for weeks. This would have driven a massive wedge between two characters who have only ever shared a conversation in this season. They are not close.
Up to being refused, Sansa had every reason to believe the north would back them. In Winterfell people were flayed risking getting information to her. She was told “the north remembers”. She knew of the Mormonts supporting Robb. She had people telling her to send signals for help. In that echo chamber of Winterfell she felt at her lowest point she still had help. So turning away LF wasn’t absurd to her at all then.
BUT she ended up swallowing that pride and asked for help and offered reward even though LF owes her this. She tells Jon to swallow his and he doesn’t in the face of Rickon’s death. But her raven could have been shot down for all she knew. They had a fighting chance alone and he ruined it.
If she took the Vale’s offer at first, Ramsey would have planned for it. Horses and men are costly to feed in a siege.
Everyone made hard choices, people died. I mean that’s the show, right?
I haven’t seen anyone mention the flayed men burning on the Bolton crosses. All the time we spent speculating in the off season about who the poor souls would be, and it ends up being no one of value and it’s not even mentioned in the episode!
Daks,
I’m sorry, but telling Jon about the Vale army or about sending a raven to LF doesn’t mean that Ramsay will find out. Jon isn’t going to send Ramsay a message to tell him lmao. She can still tell Jon about the Vale and keep them a secret from Ramsay. They can arrive the same way they did on the show.
ThroneDorne,
I think they were used as scare tactic and also as distance markers for Ramsay to calculate the range for his arrows.
Daks,
Wonderful analysis. Sansa wanted to win with people she could trust thats why she asks Jon to wait for more men. Thats also why she rejects LF in the first place. Now she doesnt know if he will come or not and whether it will be in her favour or not.
Her preference is to win with Jon not with LF. She cannot tell Jon about LF in the tent. First, he may or may not arrive. If he arrives, Ramsay stays at Winterfell. There is no way he is coming out if he knows Jon is not in a weak position.
Greenman,
He shot Wun Wun because he’s a douchebag. Ramsay probably saw Jon was about to have an emotional moment for a second there with the giant and decided to take it away from him.
Daks,
This is my take on it as well.
Thanks for writing it better then I could.
Just a thought:
Littlefinger has some thoughts on the matter as well.
If Littlefinger made a checklist of things he wanted out of this battle, he would have picked:
1) Be on the winning team – Check
2) Come to Sansa’s rescue, putting her in your debt – Check
3) Not lose many men – Check
4) Undercut Jon’s strength by letting his loyalist get massacred – Check
5) Undercut any other claim to the North by letting male Stark heirs get killed – Check
6) Wait until Jon is killed – OK, can’t win them all
He got 5 of the 6 accomplished. Baelish is now commander of the strongest force in the North. If Sansa doesn’t marry him, he just says, “Fine, I’m going home. Good luck with the rest of the houses” or even worse, he JOINS those houses.
Littlefinger probably INSISTED on hanging back. One can hear him say, “No, this is the proper strategy, sweetling…”
So, this is not as simple as “Sansa cost lives.” You’re assuming that if Sansa had told Jon, and Jon waits for LF to arrive then LF submits to Jon’s command? Do we honestly think that happens?
And if Sansa agrees that LF should be commander, then the battle plays out much the same way. As cold as it sounds, using the wildings as cannon fodder to draw out the Bolton forces would be sound military strategy. Otherwise, Ramsay just goes into the castle and says, “Good luck feeding all your soldiers! Have a nice day!”
Sansa should have told Jon, but I’m sorry, there is probably not one life that could have been saved by him having that info.
My take.
Sansa.
In general, there was no difference whether she told Jon or not. Luring Ramsay into an open-field battle, making him to believe that he wins and then using a fresh cavalry for the surprise attack was still the best option. However, if they counted on Littlefinger the battle could have went even worse when it had, because Littlefinger was not a trustworthy ally and he was definitely interested in Jon’s death. We can even assume that the cavalry of the Vale was ordered to attack only after Jon was knocked down and disappeared. For Littlefinger, it must have been a rather unpleasant surprise to see him reemerging and the fact that it was Jon and his men who broke into Winterfell first was even worse, because now Jon is the main victor and not Littlefinger.
Course of the battle and mistakes of the command.
The battle plan was hopeless. There were ways to beat Ramsay. What they had to do was to use the wood in their rear. They had to cut some trees to make barricades in advance. Then they had to use the cavalry for the first attack, fake a retreat and hide behind these barricades. Ramsay’s cavalry would have to dismantle, archers would not be of much use as well, and the numbers would have become equal, because, when you have some kid of fortifications, 1 man in defense equals 3 in offense. The final step would have been to send the cavalry to charge Ramsay’s forces from behind. But let’s be frank: Jon had almost no experience in open-field battles and no experienced adviser, which brings me to the next point.
Most of the mistakes were made not by Jon but by Davos. 1) When Ramsay send Rickon to run, it was Davos who had to ride to him: he was mounted, Jon was on foot, and he would have been a smaller loss which he had to understand. 2) Jon’s decision to ride forwards after Rickon fell was right: there was a chance of reaching Ramsay, though a very minor one. The mistake again was made by Davos: instead of sending the entire cavalry, he had to sent only a squad to pick up Jon and then retreat ASAP. 3) The third and most drastic mistake was the decision to send the archers into the fray. Davos had to move them forwards and prevent Ramsay’s heavy infantry from encircling Jon and the wildlings (he had to see those shields and understand what Ramsay was planning). But again: Davos has never been “much of a fighter”.
Of cause, Jon was not perfect as well. When they were encircled, he had to order Wun Wun to throw dead horses upon the attackers – that would have broken the phalanx in seconds. But once again: Jon is not a military genius and this battle was not supposed to show him as one. Jon was supposed to learn a lesson on one hand and accept his destiny to fight forever on the other.
So, let’s stop whining and look how the story evolves further. If all the characters did only the right things, there would be no story and no show.
Inga,
“For Littlefinger, it must have been a rather unpleasant surprise to see him reemerging and the fact that it was Jon and his men who broke into Winterfell first was even worse, because now Jon is the main victor and not Littlefinger.”
Ooooh good point. I didn’t think of this.
WorfWWorfington,
Inga,
You two have raised excellent points!!
I too think that even if Sansa has told Jon about the army of the Vale, there is no way Littlefinger would have handed over the command of the cavalry. Which could have only brought more tension to the situation. Littlefinger is by now means an altruistic person and it is not conceivable that Jon would have been in charge of that army.
By the way, I am interested in the expression of Sansa when she saw Jon climbing up from that pile of bodies… She looked remorseful, like she regretted not warning Jon about the army of the Vale. Or am I reading too much into that?
The one thing I just don’t understand is this insistence we’ve gotten that Jon doesn’t listen to Sansa and that’s his big mistake. In general, it’s rubbed me the wrong that it’s been portrayed as Jon not listening to her because he thinks she’s a silly girl. That is the opposite of the Jon we’ve come to know – he listens to all the people that everyone else shuns as “lesser” – Sam, the Wildlings, and yes, women.
There’s just no evidence in the show itself that he thinks she’s useless, even though that’s what they keep saying. There are plenty of times she was shown to be wrong though.
She tells them about the Blackfish and because it’s a good plan, they listen.
She insists that the Northerners are loyal and will support him as Ned Stark’s son. She was wrong.
She’s wrong in dealing with the Northern lords in every interaction.
In their battle meeting, it’s not like Jon says “please, valued advisors Tormund and Davos NOT YOU SANSA, give me your thoughts.” She’s standing right there, and she just glowers at them. Does she need to be invited to speak?
And then, multiple times he says “ok, tell me what you think.” He even admits she’s right. But she offers nothing he CAN do anything about.
Even if we can rationalize why Sansa didn’t tell Jon – and I really hope this is a conversation that happens between them, because it’s the elephant in the room now – I’m not sure I will ever really understand this idea that Jon doesn’t listen to her because he thinks she’s still his silly younger sister.
In terms of Jon’s actions, it’s so easy to say “Sansa was right,” because it was JON standing there watching Rickon about to die. It’s one thing to accept it in the abstract, as Sansa did. But even if Sansa was right, how would we think of HER as a character if she just stood there and watch Rickon get shot to death? She wasn’t placed in that situation, but I imagine as a character we’d find her horribly evil IF SHE TOOK HER OWN ADVICE AND DID NOTHING.
Jon was placed in an impossible situation, with a choice Sansa never had to make. But Sansa had multiple chances to make the choice to tell Jon, and even if it worked out, it’s hard to feel like it’s nothing but manufactured drama to give us the big Sansa rides in with the Vale “surprise.” It’s fine if it’s a plot-driven motive, but then there’s no reason for everyone to bend over backwards and rationalize it from a character standpoint, because the latter is just weak.
Having said that, I don’t think we’ll see any remorse or apology from Sansa. I just think she’s beyond that now. What I DO hope we see is some acknowledgement going forward that maybe now, knowing that Jon would risk everything to do what’s right, including for her, that she will trust him more. I imagine it might be hard for Jon to trust her too, but I’m assuming they’ll just have to work at it. They’re not going to be on opposite sides when Winter arrives.
A dornish Tyrell,
I think Sansa looked sad, because she new she would have to play a very unpleasant surprise for the victory. But she smiled when she spotted Jon.
IMO I think Sansa is doing what shes been taught. Shes keeping her knowledge close to heart and using her pieces to insure her best outcome. Shes been trained by the Lannisters(mostly Cersie), and LF. I don’t agree with her decision, and I don’t know if it make since with her narrative wise. On one hand shes suffered a great amount(Im not in the camp that thought that her controversial scene last year ruined or weakened her character growth), and it might be only natural for her not to trust anyone. But on the other hand I think this actually does weaken her character growth. By know she is suppose to be smart and fast witted. But its hard to accept that it is so when she doesn’t divulge crucial information to Jon on any one of her multiple occasions that she has had to do so. What does not telling Jon about the Vale army do for her? She should of told him when he offered, and again when she wrote to LF.
Sansa “We need a bigger army”
Jon “What do you want me to do, this is the army we have, we cant wait longer”
Sansa “Actually, LF offered me the Vale army, I wrote to him asking for there help, Lets wait to hear from them”
end scene.
Now the rest are all to blame to. Jons stupid decision to rush the Bolton army after Sansa told him that Ramsay would do something and also after Jon himself employed the tactic of angering Ramsay. I mean he fell for his own trick. Then the Tormund and Davos decide to engage. Idiotic
Nadia,
I don’t think that Sansa does’t trust Jon. It’s different. I think she feels very much ashamed for being such an idiot and for allowing other people to manipulate her. She’s blaming herself, she feels guilty and has no trust that Jon will understand. That’s why she keeps secrets. Her main mistake this season was to go to meet with Littlefinger alone. Had she told about his letter to Jon and Davos, maybe together they could have worked out a plan how to outplay Littlefinger. However, she decided to meet Littlefinger alone, because she had to say him things which were not for Jon’s ears and afterwards she was ashamed to tell Jon that she rejected an army they needed etc.
The only problem I had with Sansa was that she never thought of giving herself to Ramsay in exchange for Rickon but on the other hand, knowing Ramsay, he would have outplayed them killing poor Rickon anyway, so I can forgive her that.
Inga,
If I’m not mistaken, D&D and Sophie have said she doesn’t really trust Jon.
redxgod,
I saw nothing in the show that indicated Sansa KNEW LF was coming… yes, she sent him a letter, but I assume there was no response because, how would it have gotten directly to her with no one else knowing. So really there was nothing for her to tell Jon
Stash Brannigan,
I don’t think Tormund and Davos had a choice. Jon dies = battle over. The wildlings are there for Jon, not Sansa or anyone else. Davos is there supporting Jon. Not Sansa or anyone else. They needed to come to his aid. Jon forced their hand by letting his emotions take over.
Lord Stoneheart,
So she just rode out of the camp for a stroll and ran into a big Vale army just over the hill? I hope that’s not the way they’re going, because in a show that demands you suspend belief over dragons and resurrection, I couldn’t suspend belief on that. đ
I sure hope they address when she knew.
Stash Brannigan,
Who told you that Sansa is supposed to become smart and fast witted? People don’t change (except for the worse). Sansa has courage and she is not dumb but she is impulsive and inconsistent just like her mother. Look, she told Ramsay that he was gonna die next day and then started yelling at Jon that they needed more men. She complained that Jon didn’t listen to her but when she asked she had nothing to say. It’s not her fault – it’s what she is. Imperfect but natural. And that’s what it makes her such a good character.
Nadia,
Maybe LF came to THEIR camp? I imagine only a few people would have been there and then she says, yeah, lets go save the day!
redxgod,
So you still blame a 13 year old girl, who’s got absolutely no concept of the machinations of Machiavellian/medieval political melee she’s been thrust into, whose brain (specifically her prefrontal cortex, responsible for sound judgement and long term decision-making) is literally not developed enough at that age to grasp that confiding in the mother of her betrothed who she’s been groomed to trust, makes her directly responsible for her father’s execution? Think about that for a second.
I’m not saying Sansa’s a Mary Sue and can do no wrong ( I REALLY want her to tell Jon about Littlefinger right before the battle), but I feel sorry for the wives, mothers and daughters of the men who agree with this line of thinking (and yes, every single one I’ve come across is a man).
Nadia,
After “Jon Snow is dead” I would not listen to anything D&D or any cast member says. Well, I can agree on the choice of words. Sansa doesn’t trust Jon but not in the sense that she finks he can harm her. She doesn’t trust that he could understand and forgive, that’s all. However, that scene from the trailer gave me hope that they will sort it out before the end of the season.
Lord Stoneheart,
Davos should have sent a squad, not the entire cavalry but well… he have never been much of a fighter.
Inga,
Perhaps… but I don’t think that would have been much good against the entirety of Ramsay’s mounted soldiers. They arrived simultaneously. A few guys would have been engulfed immediately. Being a poor fighter is much different than being a poor leader. Stannis thought enough of his skills in that regard to make him an important person in his regime.
Lord Stoneheart,
I don’t remember exactly but Stannis told that he valued Davos as a negotiator, not as a military strategist.
Inga,
You certainly could be right… I was just basing it off Davos’ position during the Battle of Blackwater, but I suppose naval intelligence is not the same as army intelligence.
Stimpy Stark,
Color me impressed…that was quite an analysis…I agree with you but I wonder why do you think Jon will pay? His men are mostly wildlings who know nothing of war strategy and tactics…they follow strengh and courage.Davos is the one who will teach the war game to Jon who I agree,has a lot to learn.
Jared,
This comment is everything.
Lord Stoneheart,
I don’t agree that they didn’t have a choice. Killing the leader is not the end of the battle. There is and should be a hierarchy, if Jon falls then Taormina or Davos is up next. They definitely not there for Jon. Jon convinced them but at the end of the day they are both there to ensure there survival against the white walkers and the other northern lords that would slaughter the wildling. That is the end goal, not Jon king of north. They follow him because they believe in him but with or without him they still need to fight and win to survive the winter.
Inga,
No one told me that, that is just the way stories go. Character growth and developent that’s why I said narrative wise. You don’t read a book or watch a show to see the characters stay the same the whole way through because that is horrible story telling and GRRM is a great story teller so you are extremely kidding yourself if you think that Sansa isn’t suppose to be growing into a wiser player of the game. This far into the story she should be farther along but that’s just poor story telling by D&D. They wanted to make the Vale army be just like gandalph at helmes deep. So they forced her character to make mistakes she should be at during this stage of her development. They should of found a different way to go about this. And who told you that people don’t change but for the worse. I kind of feel sorry about that statement very pessimistic
I’m sorry, but there is no way I can find any reasonable excuse for Sansa’s behaviour towards Jon. She has been hiding information from him ever since she came to Castle Black! Sansa did not tell Jon about The Blackfish and never said a word about the Army of the Vale and Littlefinger. Not a word even though he is brother and could die at the hand of a madman, Ramsay Bolton. Why not tell Jon about the possibility of receiving help from The Vale? Why refuse him this piece of information while at the same time judging him for not taking into account her opinions on the matter of military strategy? Sansa had so many opportunities to help Jon, but she refused to do so. The Stark bannermen and the Wildlings have been butchered, Jon almost died. This is inexcusable behaviour, in my humble opinion. I don’t really care what you, Sansa Stark, have been through: you’ve no right to get people killed.
In war, information is everything. A well informed enemy is a deadly enemy.
She did tell Jon about the blackfish.
I’m withholding my judgement of Sansa’s actions until the last episode because I suspect she and Jon will have a conversation about why she withheld that information from him. If it’s not addressed it will confirm my suspicion that the show just needed her to do it for plot purposes and as a means of creating tension between her and Jon just for the hell of it…. I will be very disappointed if that is the case, because they don’t give the audience any indication as to what her motivation might be.
Anyway if I had to guess I’d say her keeping Jon out of the loop has more to do with LF than Jon. Her promising LF a “reward” seems very suspicious to me, like maybe she’s trying to set a trap for him or something. Sansa seems scarily pragmatic this season, like she’s basically willing to do whatever it takes to get Winterfell back and ensure her own safety, and after the Ramsey situation I think she views LF as a threat that she needs to eliminate.
Vlad the Impaler,
If you borrowed a large sum of money on the black market, would you tell that your parents? Or your spouse? Do you always tell everything to everyone?
This comment makes no sort of sense. It is not at all t comparable to anything that is going on in the show
ss-kiss,
I agree with you in the sense that Sansa has become coldly pragmatic and that she viewed the wildlings as a mean to get Winterfell back. In a way, it reminds me to a comment the Queen of Thorne (another pragmatic lady) made when Kevan Lannister said that there was going to be a civil war and many would die: “Many will die no matter what we do, better them than us”.
We like the wildlings, but there’s no reason for Sansa to have to care for them like we do.
Stimpy Stark,
Bravo.
Devin,
Jon ainât her daddy and she is more than capable in making her own decisions.
I understand your points but the comment above I disagree with. Sansa is not a lone wolf she has become encamped at an army base and she is not the one in command. When you ask your brother to muster up an army and go to war then effectively yes, you should be required to offer up any intelligence you have. What role does she want to play here? Since she is an unarmed, untrained lady, admits that she doesn’t know war strategy, doesn’t have her own unit to be captain of, her role is intelligence and support. She can be an adviser in so far as she is the only one who knows the enemy’s character, she and Jon are a “team” in so far as it is their home that’s being fought for, but he has central command of the ground forces and in her role she is obliged to share all information she has with him.
“A secure and open line of communication is vital for any military force to continue to operate effectively. Prior to the advent of the use of telegraph and radio in warfare, lines of communication were also the routes used by dispatch riders on horseback and runners to convey and deliver orders and battle updates to and from unit commanders and headquarters. Thus, a unit whose lines of communication were compromised was vulnerable to becoming isolated and defeated, as the means for requesting reinforcements and resupply is lost.”
Greenman,
I blame Davos more than Jon for the decision to charge.
True, but I can’t hold it against the guy. He saved Jon’s life with that decision. He’s too good of a man to stand down and watch a man he respects and cares for get mowed down and I love him for that.
Thank you all for your kind words. I have read every comment here and there has been some incredible thought and feeling put into all of them. This has been one of those episodes that kind of divides some of us, but when we can discuss that division in this kind of manner and not try to force our opinions at the expense of another’s I think it is wonderful. I know it makes me look at things I didn’t consider and it makes me want to look at them from different view points.
Again, it’s opinions and we should try to respect that, when we do I think our fandom grows stronger. So I just want to thank you guys again for this discussion and being part of it. It may sound lame or pandering, but my own goes to the people in this thread. It’s become to rare to be a part of this kind of conversation. My show own, well it’s Jon for being Jon. And like many of us have said to hell with everything else that’s my little brother, if there is any chance at all I can save him, you bet your ass I’m trying. Side own to Lady Mormont love that look. I so want her and Bran to be betrothed.
AlexG,
Alex in response to your question. My concern and it may be way out in left field, but Jon now needs to get support to stand against the WW’s. I 100% agree those there have and always will support him to the end. It’s the others out there that may catch wind of how this battle went down and may believe him a bit reckless. I’m hoping that doesn’t come into play, but with LF there who knows what he may do to try to undermine any repair Jon and Sansa try to make. Plus he still does have that whole letting the wildlings through thing to overcome.
It’s really only him, Bran, Meera, the wildlings, Edd, and the other knights watch that survived Hardhome that truly know the fairy tales are real. He needs to start getting that word out now and I’m just hoping this battle won’t hurt him. It shouldn’t, I believe it should only and to his legend, but I’m still a little worried. He has enough to contend with already in rallying people behind them. I agree that Davos could be a great asset in accomplishing this, but we will have to see how the whole Red Woman thing goes.
ss-kiss
My point is that she withheld information from him. Jon found out about Riverrun only at the war council in Castle Black, after Sansa met Littlefinger in secret. He found out about the knights of the Vale only at the end of the battle with the Boltons. And all this, mind you, after Sansa convinced him to march on Winterfell to save “their brother”and deal with the threat of a Bolton North.
That’s not how war should be fought and Sansa has been toying with him and the loyal bannermen of the Starks, as well as the free folk. She’s been going all Petyr Baelish on him. Oh, and that “execution by dog”? It was more Ramsay Bolton than Ned Stark. “The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.” Robb knew that, Jon knows that, but Sansa rejects it and I find her attitude disturbing.
Vlad the Impaler,
Honestly, I wish the wildlngs had one or two Thenns left to deal with Ramsay. Especially given Osha’s words right before dying.
Stimpy Stark,
Grear comment! Thank you Stimpy Stark.
Although I do not agree, I don’t mind Sansa not telling Jon about Little Finger because it wasn’t a sure thing as far as we know. Just because she sent a raven doesn’t guarantee Little Finger would come through. Since he had no intention on waiting to battle no matter how much Sansa protested, Jon was better off going in there not counting on a Hail Mary from the Knights of the Vale. A case could be made that he was better off thinking he was at worst case scenario and trying to fight through that then waiting for them to come save them in the midst of battle.
Sansa is not her mother or father. Everyone has felt great empathy for her while she endured Joffrey and Ramsay, but given her return to Jon, she has quickly re-established the qualities reminiscent of her childhood self. She has self interests at heart, bitchy nature, with a sense of entitlement, and seems to gravitate towards bad men. Once Joffrey, now Littlefinger.
Season 6 is mostly about the characters. Not just their motivations and what happens to them, but who they are. Who is Sansa after 5 seasons?
Sansa said it best to Jon Snow, when she said she was horrible to him when she was young. Self awareness comes with age, and it comes when you hit rock bottom, but that doesnât necessarily mean we change. Some time away from the clutches of Ramsay&Joffrey and Sansa soon starts to find her self worth again. And with that, her instincts and her temperament. Far from being this wonderful person everyone is hoping. When it comes down to it. With her self interests in mind, she had little regard for her sister Arya back then and she has little regard for Jon Snow now.
Realising Jon will not be her shining knight in armour she seeks the help of Littlefinger.
In the scene before the battle, Sansaâs conversation with Jon is telling. She lashes out at Jon who is stumped for words. In part, what she is going to do at the battle is weighing on her conscience… Jon, why canât you do better she cries. But really she speaks to him only to reaffirm in her own mind why she has to seek littlefingers help in secret.
In between this dialogue its clear, Jon doesnt have what it takes. Sansa knows that an honourable Jon canât win against a Ramsay who doesnt fight fair. She is fearful and desperate. And in her mind the only way to beat ramsay is to play his games.
Unlike Jon she is willing to sacrifice Rickon who is pretty much already dead. And crucially unlike Davos, she is willing to sacrifice her own men to lead a delayed attack by the knights of the Vail. A specific tactic no doubt Littlefinger advises behind the scenes.
This tactic we realise was likely necessary in bringing Ramsay out in the open who might have otherwise stayed or run home to Winterfell. As Ramsay admitted to Jon, he is a pragmatic man, why fight Jon alone when he has an army that outnumbers his.
In the end, Ramsay unleashes all his brutal moves but Sansa is willing to send men to their deaths just the same. She outplays him.
For all her negative temperament, she succeeds where Jon would have failed. And unlike her mother and father she is very much alive.
So is it time to talk about this? Brexit is bad news for Game of Thrones.
http://time.com/4379290/game-of-thrones-brexit-vote-impact-europe-eu-uk/
And that would be out of character for LF. Why would he help Jon save Rickon? He wanted those two armies to crash into and kill each other so he could ride in and mow them down with the Vale. It’s pretty much what he told Cersei he’d do in S4. Why is this so confusing? I wouldn’t be surprised now to find out he sent the Pink Letter and led everyone down the road to this so he could be Lord of Winterfell. I think that’s what he’s going to tell Sansa he wants in Ep 10.