Love, sex, and death feature in this week’s episode of Game of Thrones– so, it was business as usual.
Spoiler Note: This post is for those who have read the A Song of Ice and Fire series. The post and the comments section will contain spoilers! If you haven’t read the books yet, please check out our non-book-reader recap. Thanks!
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At Castle Black, Jon and Tormund prepare to ride for Hardhome, where the rest of the wildlings are hiding out. Most of the Night’s Watch think Jon’s plan to let the wildlings pass through the Wall sucks, but he’s sticking to it. He leaves Alliser Thorne in charge, and bids farewell to Sam, who shares his stash of White Walker-killing dragonglass with Jon.
Sam and Gilly tend to Maester Aemon, who is still ill. The old man reminisces about his little brother Egg (book reader squee!) and then focuses long enough to warn Gilly to take the baby south before it’s too late.
At Winterfell, things aren’t getting any easier for newlywed Sansa Stark. She’s locked in her chamber all the time by Ramsay, whose nightly visits are hell. She pleads for help from Reek when he stops by her room; she asks him to light a candle in the Broken Tower, telling him her family still has friends in the North. She reminds Reek of his true name, and he hesitantly agrees.
Reek trudges through the snow with the candle, up a flight of stairs…and into Ramsay’s room. Dammit!
Maester Aemon’s condition is worsening- it’s clear he’s dying and delirious. He calls for his brother Egg, and reaches out for Sam, telling him, “Egg, I dreamed that I was old.”
And then we see Aemon has died. Samwell eulogizes him, not only as a member of the Night’s Watch but as a Targaryen whose fire has gone out. His funeral pyre alit, Alliser Thorne takes the opportunity to taunt Samwell about losing another of his friends. (I would’ve liked you so much more if you’d died defending the Wall, Thorne.)
Sansa is called by Ramsay to the decks of Winterfell, still under reconstruction, and he speaks on his thoughts of the future. Sansa reminds him of the new Bolton baby on the way in a bit of snark.
Ramsay then reveals his real reason for bringing her outside. He walks her down to see a figure displayed on an X- it’s the old servant woman who was helping her, now dead and partially flayed. Standing by, Reek seems miserable about having exposed Sansa and the old woman. Ramsay is gleeful, of course, about his Reek having come to him instead of helping her. Sansa chokes back tears as his men escort her back to her locked room.
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Stannis’s march south isn’t going well- the snow is killing horses and driving off the sellswords they’d hired. Davos argues in favor of retreat but Stannis is adamantly against it. Melisandre reassures the king that he’s doing the right thing after his Onion Knight has gone. But she believes a sacrifice must be made for victory, another with king’s blood, implying Shireen. Stannis tells her to get out because that is pretty damned awful even for you, Melisandre.
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Back at the Wall, two NW thugs decide to sexually harass Gilly and take it even further until Sam shows up to break up their assault. He challenges them with a sword, though they mock him, and he’s quickly knocked to the ground and beaten. Sam drags himself to his feet, and summons his inner badass to defend Gilly, but is saved from having to follow-up on it by the appearance of Ghost, who scares the bejesus out of the two thugs. Then Sam keels over.
He wakes up in bed, under the ministrations of Gilly. They exchange tender words, and wind up kissing. This leads to charmingly awkward sex.
Outside Meereen, Jorah and Tyrion are on the auction block. Jorah is quickly sold to Yezzan based on his fighting prowess. Not wanting to be left behind, Tyrion claims to be his partner and also a great fighter. He beats up another man to prove it; Yezzan finds him funny and buys him too.
Dany and Daario’s pillow talk touches upon tense topics, such as his thought that the violence from the Sons of the Harpy has stopped because Dany is marrying Hizdahr, and perhaps he’s their leader. Daario proposes she marry him instead, but she insists she can’t. Daario recommends she get rid of all the great masters of Meereen, but Daenerys is against the idea because she’s no butcher. Daario points out that you’re either the butcher or you’re meat.
The Queen of Thorns approaches the High Sparrow in the Great Sept, and it’s a duel from the word go. Olenna can’t grasp what the High Sparrow wants since he’s not interested in gold, but she’s determined to get her grandchildren freed. She even threatens to withhold Tyrell crops from King’s Landing but the High Sparrow isn’t intimidated by her.
As she leaves, she receives a message with a familiar seal- Littlefinger’s mockingbird.
In the Red Keep, Tommen rages at his mother over his helplessness when it comes to Margaery. Cersei tries to comfort him, and offers to speak with the High Sparrow. Honestly, her speech about her dedication to him would be more touching if she weren’t the cause of all his problems right now.
In Dorne, imprisoned Jaime checks in with daughter-niece Myrcella, who’s confused about the situation and doesn’t want to leave anyway- Dorne is her home now.
Bronn finally gets to finish his rendition of “The Dornishman’s Wife” while sitting in a jail cell across from the Sand Snakes. Only Tyene is appreciative of his performance- and she is very curious about how his arm, the one she cut with her blade, is doing.
One thing leads to another and Tyene is exposing her breasts to tease Bronn, while his head gets foggy and his nose starts to bleed. It’s the poison finally kicking in- “The Long Farewell,” it’s called, and it was on her dagger. Luckily she carries the antidote on her necklace. Before giving it Bronn, she makes him tell her she’s the most beautiful woman in the world.
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The Queen of Thorns meets with Littlefinger in the shattered remains of his brothel. Olenna makes it clear- if she goes down, so does he, since he helped her kill Joffrey. Littlefinger admits to helping Cersei, because he had to, and offers Olenna information that could help her now – “a handsome young man.”
Yezzan’s fighters have their first outing at a small lower pit, not knowing that just outside the holding area is the queen of Meereen herself, with her companion Hizdahr. Jorah sits waiting to join the fray, and comes alive when he hears mentions of the queen. His faces lights up seeing Daenerys sitting on the dais.
The fighting begins, brutal matches that leave Dany cringing and disgusted. Jorah rushes to jump into the fight, taking down every man who comes his way.
Inside, Tyrion saws at the chains that keep him bound to the bench before a man cuts him free.
Jorah wins the match, and stands before Daenerys, removing his helmet. Furious, she demands he be taken from her sight. Then Tyrion runs from the holding area, the gift Jorah intended. He offers himself up, and tells her who he is. “Tyrion Lannister.”
They have Daenerys’ attention now.
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Cersei visits Margery with a bowl of venison and smug smiles. Her usual smooth words are ignored by Margaery and there is no subtlety in their war now. Margaery is done with that. She throws the bowl of food at Cersei and screams at her before curling back into a corner. Cersei strolls away from the cells happily.
She encounters the High Sparrow in the chamber outside the cells. He speaks of stripping away fineries and eventually you’d think Cersei would get the hint he’s not just talking about the Tyrells.
Lancel has been talking and she is royally screwed.
The sparrows’ septas grab Cersei and throw her into a cell. Cersei’s situation is now just as dire as Margaery’s. Worse, actually, considering what Lancel knows- everything.
Highlights
Rigg vs Pryce: Amazing to watch these two play off other. Every scene with them is great, but the two of them together is just flawless.
The End of Aemon: Peter Vaughan is a lovely actor, and I appreciate the show keeping in his deathbed rambling about Egg. His scenes and the eulogy performed by John Bradley were very affecting.
Well, there’s no fat pink mast, but…: It was a very sweet, realistically awkward and funny sex scene for Sam and Gilly.
The Dornishman’s Wife part 2: Oh good, they let Bronn finish the song. That would’ve bugged me to no end if he never got to do that.
Lena Headey and Cersei’s imminent fall: the smugness, the way she convinces herself of the things she says, and so many things about Headey’s Cersei are so strong. She gets better every year.
Set-ups: Jorah and Tyrion are in position in Meereen, Jon and Tormund headed for Hardhome, Cersei has screwed herself righteously, Stannis is on the verge of battle, Dany’s about to be married, and Sansa’s now at the breaking point with her helper taken away. This episode was great about setting up the last few episodes of the season.
Mixed Bag:
Caged Heat: I enjoyed some of the bits of dialogue like Obara’s remark early in the scene and the sisters vibe the Snakes have developed well. And of course I liked Bronn’s singing. It’s just that the scene as a whole comes off as a little cheesy as written. I thought so when I first saw that scene in the audition scripts that leaked last year, and sad to say, I still think it. And I don’t mind nudity, but it did seem like a rather blatant excuse to have Rosabell Laurenti Sellers topless for a long time. It’s one of those scenes I have to turn my brain off and just shrug to enjoy.
No thanks.
The whole attempted rape business with Gilly and the Night’s Watch just seemed unnecessary. Their grief over Aemon certainly would’ve been enough to get them in bed together if they were looking for a plot motivator.
So, nobody is up in arms about Gilly forcing herself on Sam while he whimpered? Really? He was going in and out of consciousness and was clearly in no position to consent. Oh, it’s suddenly okay because the genders were reversed? Yeah, right.
I’m so fucking done. I swear, I’m — wait, what’s that word again? Oh, BOYCOTT! I’m BOYCOTTING this show! By the Seven, I’m so triggered right now!
Yung Wolf,
Stop trolling. It’s tedious.
Sue the Fury,
You know, in an alternate universe where your counterpart had a sense of humor, you might have laughed.
I’ll keep it super serious and boring from here on out. Promise. 😉
thought it was great set up for the last three action filled episodes, but then again, really any episode that followed last week’s would be a step up.
Eh, I didn’t mind the scene much, it’s probably proof that Stannis was right about the Night’s Watch -it’s full of rapists and murderers. With no Jon around to keep them in check, some of them revealed themselves as bad apples.
Agreed about the Dornish cells scenes -I really didn’t have problems with the Sand Snakes so far, but that moment was really cheesy. And while I was glad Bronn didn’t croak, I’ll be pissed if he gets killed later after this poisoning attempt.
So did Tyene really give Bronn an antidote or just something else to finish him off? Been dreading the possible demise of Bronn for months.
Morgoth,
Also, the scene showed that Sam, Gilly, and little Sam really need to get out of Castle Black and on their way to Oldtown. Agree that it wasn’t necessary for Fat Pink Mast, though.
Yung Wolf,
She asked him twice if he was okay with it and he said yes, twice, and was clearly enjoying it. She asked him if she was hurting him and he clearly said no and wanted her to go on. Get your head out of your a**. Only a sicko thinks rape is a joke.
I thought it was clear enough that it was really an antidote. Why giving him something else to finish him off instead of just waiting for the poison to do its job? Eh.
The scene with the sand snakes was not TOO bad aside from Obara and nym giving the cheesy sitcom looks as if they are saying, “Oh brother! Here goes, Tyene. That little rascal. Oh Jimminy crickets.”
I’m starting to blame it on the actors now. Perhaps that is why we got so little of them? Cause they are bad and are a casting mistake?
Isn’t that to get Sam and Gilly out of Castle Black though?
So
Upon second viewing, I realized that Sansa said “Promise me” to Theon, who is in no position to accept a promise, must less her trust. Ugh. Those are sacred words, Sansa. Why would D&D have Sansa use them on a fool who she thinks to have killed her brothers? Why would she tell him her secret??? It is a headscratcher, especially when Lyanna’s omniscient words were involved. They are the words of a song of ice and fire….and now the show has rendered them meaningless. 🙁
Fancy word for a sellsword,
I am totally hoping for that.
Regarding Gilly scene; If anything the show should have done this earlier! 1 woman among 50 ex cons who are not allowed to have sex?!
My god! in the real world she would get raped the first day she stepped in there! (Just keeping it real! Mankind is like this …just listen to George Carlin, you get the idea)
What she said. You’re not even particularly good at it haha.
Anyway…
Great fucking episode. Ramsey is still the sadist that he was last week, which is to be expected. I really enjoyed the Sand Snakes this week and even though it kind of would’ve made sense for Bronn to bite the dust, I’m so glad that he didn’t. Jonathan Pryce was excellent this week. It was the first time that he came across as truly terrifying in the show. And based on what he said to Cersei towards the end of that conversation, it makes me more certain that he’s
Howland Reed.I mean all that he was saying about the decadence of Baelor, and worshipping in a less fanciful manner screams of the Old Gods and not needing these palace temples covered in gold. That’s what I took from that, anyway. And it was great to see Ghost, if only for a moment. Oh and if Stannis lets Melisandre sacrifice Shireen, I will have that much more trouble rooting for him to defeat the Boltons. I know that a lot of us suspected that as a possibility since Melisandre insisted on bringing her to the wall, but who would ever want to believe it? I think I’ll just curl into a ball and die if they burn Shireen lol.The handsome young man Littlefinger talks about. WHO WAS THAT?! As soon as he said it I immediately thought of Rickon. Perhaps LF learnt that he’s in the north.
…seriously?
I kind of thought maybe the dagger poison wasn’t fatal, just made him sick and she was giving him the finisher.
Ria,
This is the shit that I’m talking about. People like you that take themselves far too seriously and take things out of context.
Yes, I’m very aware that it wasn’t rape. No, I’m not trying to imply that it was. I was hoping that maybe people who were upset over the ending of last week’s episode would read my post and realize that they were being ridiculous and taking things much farther than necessary. Maybe even, R’hllor forbid it, have a chuckle and lighten up for a moment.
If anyone has their head up their ass here, it’s you.
The Tyene scene was surprisingly not horrible given how terrible I thought it would be just reading the script. I think the actress played the hell out of it and made it work. And I’m talking about her facial expression and not her body. And the fact that the other 2 sister were rolling their eyes at her antics sold it as just Tyene loving to play the tease and they’ve all scene it before.
Overall it actually worked for me.
She pretty much said that the poison was fatal, “just a scratch is enough to kill you” or something like that.
Does anyone have any ideas to how
Tyene’s scene was ACTUALLY good. Wow.
2 Balon greyjoy references; once by Sansa – by name! And the other was when melisandre reminded us about the leeches. If that’s not a highlight I don’t know what one is
Jorah knew him by sight so he can confirm.
Ok, ok…I’ve gone over the top. Those words do mean something tremendous, imho, but maybe I was just trying to get a reaction. 🙂
The episode was my favorite of the season…possibly for the Aemon scene alone. Those words….
Maybe with information? Tyrion would know stuff about King’s Landing and such, and random dwarf wouldn’t. It’s not that difficult, really.
Ozy,
Agreed.
Did you happen to enjoy how her character is ‘fleshing’ out?
Great episode.
Positives
D&D have done what George should have done, and had Dany & Tyrion meet. The Unsullied would have gone crazy if this didn’t happen this season. Good move. Exciting to see what happens next!
Sand Snakes better.
KL scenes were superb. Pryce & Rigg lived up to their reputations, with other great performances from Headey & Dormer in particular.
Negatives
I honestly can’t think of any, because I really enjoyed that episode. I guess if I was being picky it would be how wasted AAA was as Malko, but even then it is great that GoT gets quite big names for minor roles.
9.25/10
And Tyene did look hot in this episode, she looked like an unattractive rumer Willis before but really turned it around- perhaps as the result of some other glammar?
Actually enjoyed the SS scene this episode and not necessarily for the boobs…we got a “teeny” bit of character development for them this time around, even if it involved a flash of skin.
Khal Tommen,
That’s what the cock merchants for!
Bronn was saved and I’m fairly sure will be asked to do something in return for it. Love him but I wouldn’t expect him to stay faithful to Jaime.
Possibly the first episode that I’ve thought Sophie Turner did a great job. Zinging it at Ramsay despite herself. Good! Iwan Rheon chillingly good, and I don’t think Theon intentionally screwed it up, I really don’t.
Still writing a scene in my head where Jorah says ‘fuck this’ and stops putting his heart directly under Dany’s heel. Great fight scene from Iain Glen as opposed to the unfortunate Dorne one last week.
That moment when Cersei knows her goose is cooked! Lena and Pryce were so very good. 🙂
Bro, you´re just not funny.
I know you try hard, but dang…you fall so very short.
Stop noodling yourself when you type and there may be hope yet.
They mentioned Stannis lost the Stormcrows.
Nothing about the Golden Company. They are leaving the avenue open.
Season 6 Golden Company Anyone?
On one hand we have an actress doing a topless scene that was a bit cheesy on the other hand a bedroom scene where being topless would be natural but where the actress kept the blankets over her breasts. Emilia should work for a big network show where violence is no problem but where you can’t show any bare skin!
Give me Hardhome right fookin now.
Tyene is just preparing Bronn as Plan B. Maybe he has an oak heart.
Right, but I thought she could be toying with him. It would have been a pretty badass move although I didn’t want to see Bronn die.
flintwielder,
As opposed to the rest of the top quality posts made on here daily, right?
See how subtle sarcasm works? Believe it or not, if you try really hard, you can actually make it out through text.
By the way, I don’t know who you are.
Anyone see what Sansa picked up? Thought it was a corkscrew or maybe some construction tool. Seemed to have a blade.
Yung Wolf,
Dave Hill and Bryan Cogman should never write Dorne again.
I caught the “promise me”, too and groaned when I saw the outcome. So, yes, they have become close to meaningless. Honestly, isn’t “the North remembers” moving towards meaningless also, based on what we have seen so far? The poor little old lady and Ramsay are the only two to say those words. Does the North remember anything of the Starks or does it assume that they are gone, like the old man with Brienne and Pod. Only Stannis seems to care.
Yeah, I have to say that even with the fairly obvious “excuse for toplessness” of the scene, I actually really liked it and would have been a lot more impressed with the Sand Snakes if that had been their introduction instead of what we got.
I also thought the Gilly almost rape, Aemon’s comment about going south and Allister’s about his lack of friends were all set up for getting Sam and Gilly on a boat.
mariamb,
I agree. They are playing fast and loose with certain phrases. However, I must admit that I did a fist pump when Stannis said “Winter is coming….it isn’t just the Stark words.”
Sometimes I wonder if D&D are taking these potshots at GRRM’s iconic words as “punishment” for not finishing TWoW. 🙂
After last week I was afraid that my handle would have to be retired.
Silly me.
I disagree with this. The scene served two main purposes: telling the viewer that Sam is basically completely helpless at this point with all of his friends with any power dead or off to Hardhome, and then telling the viewer that, actually, no, Ghost is still there and will protect him. I don’t think that the awkward sex was the point of this; it was more like a bonus for a Wall-bound Sam and some character development.
Someone please, who was LF mentioning “The handsome boy”?
I will say, this episode made at least one of the sand snakes interesting. I hope that Stannis walking out on Mel is a set up for him sending her back to the wall just in time for Jon to get back and not a “were killing shireen plot”. If the do the former they will continue the trend of getting Stannis back in line with his book counterpart. The later would continue the trend of Stannis’ character assassination.
I thought he was talking about Lancel but he seemed to have already spilled to the High Sparrow. Maybe Olyvar? Gets him to recant?
GameofHype,
Olyvar
Fancy word for a sellsword,
That would b great! Really, anything to bring Brienne back and save Sansa.
You´re not subtle. Just dull.
That independs of who I am.
Sansa taking the corkscrew..
Attempting to pick the lock on her door? The preview indicates she is going to stop asking Theon for help and instead demand it. Will she threaten him? Hurt him? I don't think she'd attempt to hurt Ramsay, though she can't help but snark at him, or herself?I have a favorite sand snake now. The reveal of Lancel was particularly staged and unnatural, and the stupid monk soundtrack needs to go. But I have a favorite sand snake.
Something I did enjoy about the Sand Snakes scene is that Tyene’s game with Bronn reflects her psycho personality from the books. Disappointed that Nymeria still hasn’t gotten any characterization other than eye-snark at Tyene
Hodor’s Bastard,
I don’t think Lyanna has a patent on such common words. Plus she’s desparate. Seems Reek is the only one allowed around her anymore.
Great episode!
I have a theory I want to get odd my chest. Re: the corkscrew. Does anybody think that Sansa will pull this on Ramsay the following night? And I don’t mean to kill him but to threaten him in a way that turns him on to mindfuck him? Turn him against Myranda? And then stir shit up between Ramsay and his father via Walda and his succession?
Or I am hoping too much?
flintwielder,
I’m almost 100% sure that you’ve been banned before and have probably used multiple names to post. Why else would your posts have been removed from tons of other articles?
Your limited English and poor spelling definitely remind me of somebody…
This is a post by Ginerva I copied from the open chat thread:
hexonx,
I copied a post of Ginerva’s from the open chat thread where she linked pictures of what Sansa grabbed, but it’s in moderation. It should show up above this post, at some point.
Syrio,
I kind of have to agree with this. Though I don’t think we needed 4+ shots of her boobs.
Syrio,
I think he knew him from his words. Not sight.
RabidXdog,
I think Stannis is going to choose his daughter. Mel will make an attempt with Selyse’s help but it will be foiled by Davos. Stannis will then go fight the Boltons and will die in the battle, but they will win. Or they will lose. Either way Stannis will die. It will be either by Ramsay’s hand or Brienne’s. But I think Ramsay will end him.
Brienne will kill Melisandre.
Pigeon,
To be fair I think Sophie Tirner has always acted brilliantly. Just has a better character now (vs. “it’s the only thing I ever wanted!” In season 1.
Good episode! Initial thoughts…
“Egg, I dreamed I was old.” That line was as personal and powerful as it was in the book. Glad D&D honored the source material.
The King’s Landing drama keeps getting better and better! I only wished Cersei was thrown in the same cell as Margery. That would have been something. Also, that Septa looked like she could throw down.
I enjoyed the Sand Snake- Bronn scene (not only, the bewbs). I thought it was cool that Tyene could appreciate the interesting fella that Bronn is, and realized he didn’t deserve to die for getting in the way… but also, that she didn’t pass on the opportunity to fuck with him, and let him know she could have let him die a shit-death.
I hope with Tyrion in Meereen, that knot can be unraveled! Very bored with that location and the pace of the story.
What I don’t like…
Same and Gilly- Less is more with them.
Another week of “Yung Wolf” posts.
Demonmonkey,
Caveat: I realize to a book reader they aren’t common. But to the viewers and in the English language they are.
Lol, I knew you couldn’t resist.
Ready to admit your undying affection for me yet? If not, can you please get off of them? They’re sore at the moment.
Much better than the last few episodes! I’d give it 8.5 or 9/10.
So many good scenes. Even the Sand Snakes were good.
I still marvel at how the one perfectly natural and peaceful death in a world full of senseless and brutal deaths can be so moving. It was beautifully realized.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Thank you, my Queen. Hexonx pledges his magicks to your cause.
Reposting from open chat:
It’s rare these days that GoT does a full-boat episode that basically features everybody other than premieres/finales, but when they do, I wish they would all be as good as this one. Only Arya/Jaqen-not-Jaqen were left out, and everyone else is in (admittedly Brienne’s presence in the episode is wordless and only a few seconds). But let’s go through just how much great stuff we got:
–Sansa being the one trying to pull Theon out of Reek. Sure, she needs to ask for help, but hell, she’s trapped at Winterfell. So, y’know, it makes sense. But she’s taking the reins, sassing her husband for being a bastard, picking up a corkscrew-type-tool for later use.
–A real live awesome Sand Snake! Ok, yes, maybe I’m being somewhat distracted by what appear to be an amazing pair of breasts on Rosabelle Laurenti Sellers, but that scene was still a gem. Gave us a bit of her character that separates her from her sisters, gave us a nice amount of humor, wasn’t forced, was a nice, relaxed moment, and of course, Jerome Flynn rules.
–One of the best staredowns of the year between Jonathan Pryce, who absolutely killed it this episode, and Diana Rigg, who equally killed it. Pryce is fantastic in this role, and so is Rigg. And I love their mutual nod to the problems of aging: “For me, it’s the knees. You?” “Hips,” she says, matter-of-factly. And he makes a good point to her by noting that, well, wealth isn’t everything.
–Another great moment between Baelish and Olenna, too.
–Ah, Maester Aemon. I look forward to Peter Vaughan’s curtain call. He did a hell of a job as the old man, and so glad they left in the “Egg” dialogue. Sure, we needed a bit of exposition, but so what. It was so sweet, and beautiful. And the attempted rape of Gilly (oy, again…but can’t exactly say that aspect of the Night’s Watch hasn’t been established), along with Maester Aemon telling her to get the baby south, makes me think that we will see the AFFC plot that I won’t go into.
–“Oh, my…” Sam having sex. Hilarious.
–Melisandre, you’re a sicko. Goddamn it.
–Nice to see Jorah Mormont kicking some ass. And nice to see that “The Gift” didn’t refer to the area south of the wall, the gift of mercy, but Tyrion himself. Hysterical.
–The Yellow Whale, Yezzan, seems in some ways to recall Oliver Reed’s Proximo, one of the few really bearable parts of Gladiator; particularly his speech to the fighters before they get out into the ring.
–Jaime’s pained, broken look when Myrcella says “Of course you don’t. You don’t know me.” Whew.
–Oh, and we get the end of “The Dornishman’s Wife.” Hysterical.
–Cersei’s a liar and a creep, but her words to Tommen were heart-felt for sure.
–That last scene. First, this Hannah Waddingham actress looks dead-on perfect for the severe Septa Unella. She’s so harsh-looking. And then of course, Jonathan Pryce just gets the MVP for this episode. Again, that last scene, with Cersei, and the “strip away the gold…” monologue. He absolutely crushed it.
Great episode. Up there with the best of the year.
That was an amazing scene. You’re talking Legend status to make it as long as he did in the world of Westeros (but in the end it was only a dream :D).
Didn’t Petyr also say he had “a gift” for Olenna?
hexonx,
And my thanks to you, as I’m sure, at some point I will have need of them, loyal Hexonx.
If you tire of waiting (it’s pretty late, and the mods may not see it for a while), you can find her post with the links about a third of the way up from the bottom of the open chat thread.
Greatjon of Slumber,
Hats off to you, ser. “Oh my…”
Can’t wait to read the reviews this week.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Right on. So it does appear to be some sort of corkscrew.
I think Sansa’s going to threaten Reek into helping her, now that she knows she can’t bring Theon back.
Did any one else see Sansas surprise at her half brother being lord commander as a sign that she will try to send him a message asking for rescue? Just a possibility
Re: Corkscrew
Saw the 5×08 trailer. Never mind. I get what Sansa’s up to. Did D&D just take away Reek’s agency in the Sansa “Poole” arc and give it to Sansa?
Lena Headey, Peter Vaughan, Jonathan Pryce, Dame Diana Rigg and Sophie Turner were all fantastic in this episode.
hexonx,
Yep, and it looked sort of heavy, to me. I can’t decide whether she’ll use it as a weapon, or to pick the lock on her door.
Yeah, I thought Nymeria and Obara’s side eye and eye rolls redeemed them after last week. They started to seem a little more like people than caricatures.
I did hear 70’s porn music in my head during the seen though, but I had a good time with it 🙂
Well, that ruled. Best episode of the season, supplanting number five which had the crown purely on account of the Winterfell sequence. This one was all killer, no filler. Even Dorne was unobjectionable, albeit still the weakest sequence of the episode. It confirmed what I’d been hoping – that with all the clunky set-ups and exposition are out of the road, we’ve got three more episodes of gripping television ahead of us as the various plot threads move towards their resolutions.
Demonmonkey,
yes I did and was thinking
I’d like that
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Seems too thick to pick a lock.
Theory: The “handsome young lad” is Gendry. Who else would be a gift to Ollena?
Littlefinger found him somewhere a long the way and stashed him somewhere out of sight till he could be of use. He would be evidence against Tommen’s legitimacy, at a time when Cersei is already on trial. Could be hella entertaining.
great episode!
I even liked the sand snakes’ scene. Tyene needed her “weapon of seduction” trait like in the books. innocent but deadly.
Littlefinger’s “gift”: it must have been lancel or olyvar, but I’m wishing for something else….even young griff came to mind as a possibility.
Demonmonkey,
I did notice the surprise. I thought the scene was good, because we finally got something to reconnect Sansa to Jon.
He had a very strong, established relationship with the rest of his siblings, but it almost felt like Sansa took a cue from her mother, and didn’t regard Jon because of his bastard status. Up until this point, we’ve seen nothing to make us feel that Jon even registers on her radar. I hope we see them together again.
Fantastic episode. Best of the season by a very big margin. Nothing to gripe about. Nothing. Plus Tyrion and Daenerys finally meeting, and Cersei taken out – can life be better than this? 🙂
Way back in Season 1 Sansa never seemed to set much store by her bastard brother, Jon. Life has taken a different turn: her bastard brother is Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch and she is married to a legitimized bastard. It’s good that she found out what Jon’s position is: at least she has someone powerful from her family close by that she can get help from. That should give her some comfort.
anyone who thinks we’ll see Davos off to go looking for Rickon this season?
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
That was really it. I think it was a scene that a lot of viewers could relate to. Most of us have lost someone to old age. And there is that point in a natural death, where the old, seem young again.
When Aaemon touched “Little Sam” on the forehead, my heart freakeing swelled! It made that weird world, with the seasons damaged and unpredictable, feel natural, and like it had hope.
Demonmonkey,
A big possibility.
Jon will most likely make it out of Hardhome with some Widlings.He’ll send Sam and Gilly to Oldtown,after Aemon’s death.Some version of Pink Letter will arrive possibly at the beginning of the episode 10 from Sansa.Boltons will fight Stannis in the meantime and either Theon will help her escape,after Weirwood three heartbreaking scene (or she’ll stay there waiting for Jon’s help or LF…who knows with him).After all there is still a Vale army and with all the teleporting this season.
Anyway,he’ll recieve the message and gather Widlings after earning there trust.Then he’ll decide to broke his vows and march on WF for his sister and then For The Olly’s parents/Watch/Realm I don’t know.
Am I the only one who feels that Tyene’s impromptu striptease had a purpose? She kept asking Bronn about his arm and presumably knows a lot about how the poisons she use work.
She clearly decided that the “Long Farewell” was taking too long and knew that flashing her boobs would get Bronn’s blood pumping and circulate the poison faster. He drops like 30 seconds later.
You’re thinking of the books. Season 1 Sansa never evinced any opinion on Jon, either way.
Anyway, assorted episode thoughts:
– I loved the way Aemon’s final scenes were handled, and I’ll dearly miss Peter Vaughan, who brought a lot to the show.
– I can sort of understand why they put Gilly’s sexual assault in there, but (a) it’s really, really unnecessary given that they’ve already established plenty of reason for her and Sam to leave the Wall and (b) even if it had to be in, having it be right before she and Sam get it on is a tone-deaf writing choice at a time when the show can ill afford that.
– I really liked the High Sparrow’s scenes, even if the plot in KL continues to be kind of confusing. I really need to see next week to get some clarification on whether Lancel was what Littlefinger was offering Olenna — if that was it, I really don’t quite get how that works, since he was already on the Sparrow’s team and the HS made it sound like he was already confessing stuff.
– The poisoning stuff was kind of dumb, but this is the first time the Sand Snakes have demonstrated any sort of group dynamic, and I though the actress playing Tyene was good, so that’s an improvement.
– Decidedly not an improvement is the Jaime/Myrcella scene. The way the writers have handled this just baffles me. Myrcella is not an established character, in any real sense. Yet both of her scenes this season are written as if we already know her very well, have a good sense of her current relationships and status quo, etc. I don’t want to cast aspersions against the actress, who isn’t working with good material, but so far this character is a dud.
It seems strange that so many people are debating the identity of the “Handsome Young Lad”
The handsome young lad that Littlefinger gifted to Cersei was Olyvar the prostitute. It was Olyvar’s testimony that put Loras (and by extension Margaery) in the Faith Militant’s cells. That was the “turht” that Littlefinger was forced to give to Cersei – his knowledge of who Loras had slept with.
The handsome young lad that Littlefinger gifts to Olenna is Lancel Lannister…the key witness against Cersei, and now a devout member of the Faith Militant.
A witness for a witness…and the means for Olenna to have her revenge on Cersei and take her out of power.
This was answered in the episode, although it went by fast and was easy to miss…
Dany not pleased to see bloodshed and slaughter decides to go and jorah in order to please her taking out everyone without a drop of bloodshed and not killing anyone ….she did make her happy in a way ..
i just hope that dany doesnt make him fight in the pits,…in ADwd she constantly thinks about Jorah and how he would have counseled her and misses him …
but i am afraid she is going to make him fight in next episode
Great episode!
Sean C.,
I don’t know that Lancel necessarily confessed before joining the High Sparrow though. He could have just been pressured/convinced/manipulated to confess after Littlefinger gave him over. It seems like confession + contrition earns you forgiveness.
sorry, meant to say “That was the truth that Littlefinger was forced to give to Cersei…”
Boye,
I agree that the eye-rolling is not something we’d normally see in the world of Ice and Fire. I wonder if there’s ever been any other “eye-rolling” moments in the show or the books other than that?
If not, then it kind of broke the streak to include that kind of cheesy gesture.
GameofHype,
Lancel. He gave Olenna “the same thing he gave Cersei” a young man who could badly incriminate an enemy.
Maceless Fan,
You’re going to be disappointed if you think the High Sparrow is Howland Reed IMO. Why would a man of the north be a militant defender of the Seven over the old gods of the north? His own son has the vision of a greenseer…
GameofHype,
Perhaps, but I assumed Baelish was referring to Lancel and bringing Cersei down.
Bronn used to be a Sand Snake hater too
Go Tyene!
I thought it quite amusing.
Joh,
What? The handsome young lad Littlefinger referred to is Lancel. As is the broken boy the High Sparrow refers to. There should be no debate about that.
What happened is this. Littlefinger says to Olenna: Lancel knows a thing or two about Cersei. And he’s done a thing or two with Cersei. Olenna speaks with Lancel and says: You must tell the High Sparrow about Cersei, or we will do it first, and then you will be punished for keeping it a secret. Lancel responds by informing the High Sparrow of Cersei’s sins, and the rest is history.
I though it was very clear, in this episode, that this young boy is none other than Lancel.
They could so easily have done that enroute, instead, but D&D must speed things up.
Alexandre Laframboise,
ASOIAF fans astound me. Something that is perfectly natural, that young women do all the time, is a “cheesy gesture?” Why? It’s an eyeroll. In any event, we’ve seen Sansa do it quite a bit, and Arya a few times as well (in season 1, for example). Talk about grasping…
Fiskadoro,
I doubt HR, would sit back and let innocent people be killed, in order to further a plan. The Faith Militant have done worse than ‘arrest’ people if I’m not mistaken. Killing the gay guys in the brothel for example.
Joshua Atreides,
I’d love it if she used a little of Margaery’s work on Tommen against Ramsay…thought it might go a bit that way when she mentioned Roose and Walda’s boy. But I doubt it. We’ll have to be patient. I think a lot of people jumped the gun on Sansa just because she lied well once and started wearing dark clothes. She’s dealing with a clever psychopath here. A bit much to expect her to suddenly manipulate both Theon and Ramsay. All this blubbering about her “agency” has been a bit much. Just treading water is pretty good for someone thrown this deep in over her head. I think finally being deprived of any safety or support and constantly abused is the final step toward her becoming a much more shrewd and manipulative player of the game. Trusting Theon rather than recognizing he’s basically just Ramsay’s spy should tip people off that she’s still got a ways to go. And it’ll be all the better for being developed slowly when she finally comes into her own, unlike so much else of the story this season.
The Free Folk,
Yep. Don’t know why that theory abounds. There’s literally zero to support it. People just want to see Howland Reed I guess? Well me too, but NOT LIKE THIS!
I think they should have done a better job at reminding the audience who Lancel is and his activities with Cersei in the first 2 seasons. The fact that he looks nothing like he did in the first 2 seasons makes it even more of an issue.
Ashara Dayne,
Thank you. Never change.
Joh,
Yes, exactly.
Demonmonkey,
Agreed. I think people’s fairly clueless frustrations with Sansa have colored a lot of people’s view of Sophie Turner’s performance negatively. She’s been consistently good, and really brilliant from Season Two onward.
ArgonathofBraavos,
I felt it was clear, too, but there have have been numerous comments to this post asking about/debating the young man’s identity, ranging from Rickon to Gendry.
Hardcore,
I thought it strange too that she would appear to save him without a purpose.
Bronn is a sellsword by name and nature. The Stannis scene talking about the Stormcrows reinforces what we’re all supposed to know about about sellswords. Perhaps Tyene plans to use the double whammy of seduction and tons of gold to get Bronn to essentially replace the
Far fetched but would be an interesting plot twist and would probably divide the Bronn fans 50/50
Guys I still need help figuring out who the “Worthy Masters” that Daario is talking about are. Are they from another slaving city? Are D&D bringing in Meerastaporkai? send help
Yung Wolf,
Don’t worry, friend. I thought it was funny.
Cersei said she would burn cities to the ground for her children, again…
She is totally torching Kings Landing with wildfire.
Great episode.
Not sure if it was posted in another thread but we have the E9 description (according to the wiki):
Demonmonkey,
Yes, the character has improved. She could hardly not, actually. But I simply am not a big Sophie Turner fan, which is fine.
Fiskadoro,
Nothing clueless about it in this corner. She has her moments, and is quite average in my view. Can’t prefer everyone.
LOL at that last bit. That’s quite the way of describing it! 😀
JamesL,
How? LF face towards us saying, Do you remember that lean, long hair, blond guy, Cersei’s cousin “squiring” her, last seen in S2? Well he is Lancel the fanatic now.
D&D put a simple piece of deduction scene and the fanbase is looking at their fingers puzzled…
I think you are all forgetting the obvious.. the “handsome boy” is… The Cheese Boy! They didn’t give him that standout performance for nothing 🙂
viki,
the best suggestion so far! Far more interesting, if “true”, than Gendry…
Worse episode so far. The pornography was awful. Clearly Sapochnik doesn’t know how to film porn. And the editing was torturous. It destroyed the season…
dothrakian raven,
I knew you were a troll…
Ozy,
And yet the title still falls on me. 😀
Ozy,
Why are you saying this? Obviously you haven’t watch porn in your entire life…
Yung Wolf,
A compliment from the king of sarcasm…
Wasn’t Lancel in the Blackwater episode? Seem to remember him being injured, making his way to the room where Cersei, Sansa and the rest of the high-born ladies were hiding out during the battle, and strongly suggesting to Cersei that Joffrey get back to the front lines. She gave him a nasty push, saying something to the effect that she wasn’t about to listen to him, ordering him from the room. Or some similar actions that complete negated him as a person of any consequence to her, much less as a man or a valued lover. Looks like that push has cost her greatly.
It’s a good thing that Myrcella doesn’t want to go home to Kings Landing and that Trystane wants to marry her. Neither she nor Jaime can go back openly now, anyway. I fear for Tommen’s life. Maybe Jaime and Doran make a pact, join with Highgarden and march on the Faith Militant to oust them completely.
If Bronn was hesitant to attack armed women who were trying to kill him, what makes anyone think that he would be so completely shallow as to murder innocent Myrcella? He’s a sellsword, yes, but not a complete dick. Such a thing would completely turn his character from beloved to hated. That I absolutely don’t see happening.
The scenes with Sam, Gilly, Aemon and the baby were lovely and poignant. Farewell, Maester Aemon. You will be missed. Then Sam shows, again, that though he may be fat, he is as brave and determined as any other man. Though outnumbered and outskilled, he kept getting up. I was glad to see he got his long awaited reward from Gilly, but in real life, with the beating he took, he would have been unconscious.
To the Naysayers that didn’t like this episode, suck it.
I can’t decide if Dario Naharis is a good guy or what. He’s certainly easy on the eyes. The bed scenes were pretty good – they look good together. Emila is a pretty girl. But Dario saying that Lo and behold, the killings have stopped since the pending marriage to Hizdahr was announced, got me wondering if maybe he wasn’t the mastermind.
Thronetender,
I think Bronn might have become a little too sugar coated in the eyes of a lot of fans. In season 2, in the aftermath of Joffrey having all of Robert’s bastards killed (including the baby), Tyrion asked Bronn if HE would kill a baby no questions asked. Bronn’s response was along the lines of “no, he’d ask for “how much”.
Maybe he was just trying to sound badass, or he’s evolved, but I doubt it. He’s not a bad guy in general, but he is a sell sword, and money will always be his moral compass.
Liked Sansa probing Ramsay’s insecurities and getting the information about Jon out of him.
I could see Stannis sending Shireen away with Davos for her safety.
I’m pretty sure those of you speculating that the young man littlefinger is referring to as lancel are completely incorrect
heres why:
1) Littlefinger implies that he has some sort of control over this person, to believe its Lancel means Lancel was conspiring with little finger, where he has been with the faith before Littlefinger even arrived in the capital, and seems dedicated to the faith
2) Lancel most likely already divulged all this information about cersei far before littlefinger was even aware of any of this…
I don’t see how you guys can think its Lancel, littlefinger has absolutely zero pull over lancel. A more interesting person would be someone that could question the legitimacy of her son… essentially threatening his life. THATS a threat to cersei
Someone like gendry or young griff.
Troll in the Dungeons!!! Thought you ought to know.
I loved the Tyene scene, and not just because of the boobies. I didn’t like it at all in the audition, but here it made sense. Tyene is clearly fucking with him, not being serious. The other Snakes even roll their eyes at the whole deal.
IMO this was a good introduction to Tyene. Playful, deducting, and uses poison. I also liked episode 4’s Obara scene (with her spearing the ship captain in the face) so the only one which doesn’t stand out on her own at this point is Nymeria.
It’s great to get past the ridiculous plots of Ellaria and Jaime and into scenes with dialogue and actual acting.
Lion of Night,
lol, who writes these things
My money is on Gendry.
If YG was in the show, he would have been foreshadowed (cf. multiple references to how Shireen has a part to play).
This new season is very critical toward religion. I admire the showrunners courage in that. After a certain scene later in the season, I bet church groups will go crazy, which will just add more controversies to the show’s reputation, which will only serve to attract more viewers.
Maceless Fan,
WHAT? Trolling or? Is there seriously a theory going on that the high sparrow is Howland Reed? I mean, what exactly screams Old Gods to you? He clearly loves The Seven!
GameofHype,
I was just thinking Olyvar actually. But maybe Gendry? Maybe LF has him, and there gonna bring down house lannister with Roberts bastard heir. Or not. Who is that young handsome man!!!
Thronetender,
Even after 3 seasons we still don’t know how or if Daario is connected. That’s where going beyond the last book will help. It could go either way.
But damn he is a beautiful addition to Dany’s posse. And anyone who could make Dany really smile, which makes her more human and less robot-like, is ok with me.
So the Unsullied at Previously.tv. Would Stillshimpy just stop watching the series please? Sometimes I can’t tell if the Unsullied are offering constructive criticism or emotionally kneejerking all over the place.
Great episode chock full of meaty scenes. Weirdly, the scene that moved me the most was the one between Cersei and Tommen. Perhaps it’s because I have a young son of my own who’s pretty much my ‘everything’, but I think I finally got that no matter how crazy, paranoiac and ruthless she is, she’s really just a mother trying not to lose or outlive her children. When Tommen confessed how much he loved Margaery, there was a moment there where, perhaps for the first time, she realised how much pain she was causing him, with her vendetta against the Tyrells. Sadly that didn’t sway her from her course. Still, it added layers to her which will make the Walk of Shame resonate even more.
I find the High Sparrow fascinating and his scenes with both Olenna and Cersei were just so illuminating as to how pious and dangerous he was. They both really were rather blindsided by his simple faith in the righteousness of his cause.
Sam’s ‘Oh my’ scene was tastefully done and I totally loved how he defended Gilly, even though he’d been beaten and had no chance against the bullies.
Sansa, while totally besieged, is not about to go down without a fight. I do think she’s unbowed and unbroken, others may disagree but she’s not the same helpless maiden she was in KL. Even after the scene where Ramsay revealed the old lady he’d flayed, I just got a sense that she would endure and tally all of these wrong-doings for a reckoning. She’s desperate but she’s being active in her own story. The tool she picked up, which seemed some sort of barrel tap/awl (?) is going to come into play.
Others may disagree but I liked that Theon still can’t break from Reek and is still enslaved and traumatised by Ramsay’s hold on him. We see glimmers of hope and resistance, but the rape of Sansa wasn’t some magical plot cure-all. It’s going to take a lot of work from Sansa to break those mental chains.
Jorah’s ‘omgDany’shere’ face in the Lower Pits was so hilariously poignant, both my hubby and I erupted into sympathetic chortles. He’s still the man, and while I think he’s condemned forever to the friendzone, I do hope she will eventually forgive him and allow him a place by her side.
Tyrion’s scenes were, as always a highlight. Who was the giant guy who broke his chains though? He seemed cool, I’d like to see more of him.
STANNIS, don’t you dare listen to the red witch. I saw his resolve crumbling. Grimaced when he reached for Melisandre’s hip as if he needed some sexual comfort. I didn’t like how he dressed down Davos either. While I think he’s a decent man, I do think he’s become blinded by his need to fulfill his duty to become king. If he allows Shireen’s sacrifice, I will never forgive his character and he can get flayed by Ramsay for all I care. 🙂
jentario,
I think it will be the cliffhanger ending to episode 9.
Umm I’m still a little confused as to who/why Tyrion was released?
A moment of sympathy by a fellow slave or pit fighter?
Everyone needs to cut the SS some slack. That scene was not a sorry excuse for anything. If you think about it logically the nudity was to get Bronn’s heart to beat faster thus causing the poison to effect his body quicker. It was a solid scene with some character development, Bronn’s singing and a nice pair of melons. Let’s all not dwell on first impressions for the SS and give them a second chance!
I may be late to the party, but the HBO Schedule confirms that “The dance of dragons” is indeed the title for episode 9.
Loved Lena Headey’s acting in the last scene when the penny finally dropped, subtle facial gestures but screaming “Oh sheeeiiiiit, I didn’t think of this outcome…”.
And Diana Rigg, Dame be damned – put that woman on the bloody throne now instead of the boring Windsor family, I might even be pro monarchy then!
The Sansa plot developing well I think, no-one ( no,I don’t mean No-one) is going to save her and she has to do it herself although her simply escaping WF wouldn’t be enough payoff, it really has to be something that drives the whole story in the North forwards.
Very fine episode and another which shows that slow and thoughtful doesn’t mean boring.
No, he clearly pretends to love the Seven.
I find the “Old Gods” argument pretty weak, as anyone can fake religion, and the Sparrows mostly seized control by shock and force, not years of proven devoutness.
Also, there is an additional point: assuming RLJ is true, how does this get revealed to the population of Westeros? GRRM can reveal it to the readers in any number of ways, but how does this information spread and become accepted by the people? HR sending out a few ravens from the swamp ain’t going to work. HS publically revealing or supporting such information, on the other hand, gives it a lot of credibility.
While watching the Dorne scene, I could not help but think of
.
I think Littlefinger was referring to Lancel. The scene in episode 6 when LF and Lancel met in the streets seemed a bit pointless at first but it was necessary to make LF aware, that Lancel has become a sparrow.
Homplomplom,
Maybe it was Belwas, finally making his appearance. Bring on the honeyed locusts!
Demonmonkey,
That’s what I thought too. It didn’t strike me as the oh you didn’t know face that Ramsey saw.
Probably the best episode this season. We actually got character and storyline development as well as the chance for the actors to get their teeth into something.
The Northern Storyline is really becoming a highlight which has helped me forgive the ridiculous circumstances in which Sansa found herself at WF. Just hope Brienne doesn’t come clunking in and ruin it! The flaying of the Northern woman was incredibly well shot and showed the horror (great use of multiple sclose ups on different body parts not like the badly cut to incident with the Ironborn) of what the Boltons do. The Boltons and Ramsay in particular are finally becoming the monsterous bastards they should be. Sansas traumatic experiences have actually pushed her into making things happen now. She’s got a bit more venom in her as she stirs the pot a bit.
Kings Landing is going great guns too with smug Cersei getting her come uppance, Jonathan Price dominating as the High Sparrow and Littlefinger up to his old tricks Still curious as to who the handsome young man is as though Lancel but it doesn’t really make sense as the Faith already know of him intimately perhaps Olyvar again or maybe LF plans on using information to deliver Tommen fully to the Tyrells…not sure how Gendry would figure in. Perhaps they mean Sweet Robin with LF promising the Knights of the Vale to support the Tyrells playing both sides again! Be intersting t osee how that develops. Only minor gripe was Tommen showing flashes of Joffrey with his threats. That’s not his nature and I think detracts from his character a bit.
The Wall is building nicely with the unhapiness with the Snow regime bubbling under the surface. Sorry to see Peter Vaugn go as we lose another great actor with gravitas but I guess he had to. No issue with the attempted rape scene. Gives Sam and Gilly more motivation as to why they have to leave for Oldtown combined with Stannis telling him to keep reading.
Going to make a bold prediction that I think when Sam and Gilly leave Castle Black they’ll bump into Stannis. Davos will urge Shireen to leave with Sam and Gilly to get her out of Mels clutches and Sam will tell him about Brann and Rickon still being alive. Davos will pass the information on to Stannis who will try to get hold of Rickon to rally the North. I also think Stannis will bump into as escaped Sansa and/or Theon. Theon will be kept alive so he can verify that he didn’t actually kill the Stark boys. Sansa could possibly be taken back to the Vale or Riverlands by Brienne. Yara may show up too but may be used in another plotline.
Dorne…well it’s still not good. The Jaime/Myrcella stuff was fine. The dungeon scene was incredibly cheesey. Hate to admit it but the rather hypnotic power of Miss Sellers bewbs made it watchable. Prepping myself for the ridiculous Bronn falls in love wih her and dies because of it scenario which will be ridiculous. Why on earth is Obara always meditating by the way?!
Mereen is bringing the pieces together quickly but it’s working ok. Jorah and Tyrion are sorely needed in this part of the story as it’s been lacking strong characters.
So yeah. Generally, more of the same next week please!
N.B. Sure I’m not the only one hoping that the leechs and Balon mentions wern’t just throwaway lines! 😛
LF said ” the same gift i gave cersei” the gift he gabe cersei was sansa’s location right?, this could go like this:
A- its lancel, but to me its unlikely, i think lancel spilled the soup even before LF arrived in KL, in the books he confeses everything to his septon when he is in recovery, so maeby he already confesses
B- its sansa location too, perhaps he offered sansa’s hand in marriage to loras once he gets out, then again this would not help The Highgarden interest (getting their future out of jail)so, very unlikely
C- Rickon, if LF knows his location he could be plotting with lady olenna a second king’s death, with rickon married to HG heirness they would have the vale, the reach and the north support, then again this doesnt help their current situation either, so i highly doubt it will play off like this. And all of this is an assumption that LF works with the umbers ( its the most likely location) and its definetly a long shot.
D- It’s gendry, now this makes sense, he has disappeared since we saw him on that row boat, perhaps he has fallen into LF hands, and like many of you have said this could threaten tommen’s claim to the throne, since gendry is the spitting image of young robert (according to eddard), its a long shot, but aside from lancel its the most likely option.
I dont think its olyvar, solely because he doesnt have any leverage to cersei, so i put my money on gendry, but only cuz i want to see the stag reborn again haha
Christian,
Exactly this. In their brief encounter they talk about Cersei who is waiting LF and LF’s look is very suggestive in that scene. He also says that what the phantasies of his trade offer is entertainment insinuating that Lancels old phantasies will not be so entertaining if they come out. That scene in the previous episode makes perfect sense in this one.
About Bronn: After an utterly boring presence in S3&4 and a mediocre in S2 his character becomes more substantial in this one (more meat than just cold funny lines). More cynical, immoral, afraid, determined and entertaining than ever and having some of the best lines of the season he surprised me a lot as he was in my black list of the uttelry annoying lot in the series. I still hope that Areoh’s tool will be a perfect showcase piece on Bronn’s head, though I wouldn’t mind if he gets the kiss of life from Tyene to the next season as I liked their chemistry from the very beginning. Their scene together made the perfect antithesis to the Gillysam love scene while the parallelism between the erotically poisonous with the real poison reduced the scene’s sex for the shake of sex logic.
Chad Brick,
It works for me. The book description suits him perfectly. One of the characters mnetions meeting him in passing as they travel north and he travels south. The Reeds use ambush and surpise in warfare which would be in line with this tatic and the High Sparrow shows a lot of affection for Ned. It’s useful plot device for the R+L=J theory and makes the rise of the Faith seem less random.
By no means nailed on but I think it’s unwise to dismiss it out of hand.
I loved it. From the start to the finish. The best episode of this season by far.
Especially liked that Tyene scene, wonderfully acted. People like to unfairly blame actresses for obviously shitty writing in the previous episodes, but i wonder how would some of the show established actresses managed to do this scene…
Oh, how predictable, offscreen sexual violence caused so much outrage from some circles (cough USA cough), but the pornographic violence with flayed old lady? No problem at all.
I will miss maester Aemon so much…
This episode was just amazing though, the end is approaching and things start to get very interesting! Cersei particularly… and Jon, oh my, Hardhome worries me so much.
And I wanted to say that I’m pretty sure the handsome lad Petyr talks about must be Lancel; it’s just a callback to Olyvar being useful to Cersei and Lancel being useful to Olenna.
I really loved the Jorah – Dany pit scene. So many feels. Dany is disgusted by the slaughter which she knows is on her behalf but totally pointless, because this is just a game, there’s no purpose besides shock. And, not even any artistry or skill on display, just murder. Then she sees this new brawler march in and take everyone down with finesse and grace, and without even bothering to kill anyone, because they aren’t even worthy of it, and is duly impressed, plus there is something familiar… Then both their faces when they see each other, no words. And then she remembers she’s supposed to be “strong” and hardens. Emilia did some S1 worthy work there. It was a really great scene you guys…
Moving forward… the idea that Dany would force Jorah to fight doesn’t make sense except as a plot device. She only agreed to the pits on the condition that free men are choosing to fight for glory and riches. On that note, I wonder whether Jorah and Tyrion will reveal “hey, Hizdar is lying to you”- these were slaves fighting. Heck, WE were slaves.” Because I am having trouble understanding how that wouldn’t come up except again in the service of plot. I suppose I could see her throwing them in the dungeons for treason, and then Jorah being offered the “opportunity” to fight by someone else.
I still believe that neither Hizdar nor Daario are the Harpy. Hizdar is possible, but I think the writing would be pretty bad to make that happen, since he’d basically be acting out of character for the entire time he’s been on screen in order to make a more surprising twist – I really hate when shows try to pull that kind of thing. Daario, no way. He’s not a complicated person, people – he likes to kill and he likes to sleep with beautiful ladies, that’s about it. Stop trying to make him a supervillian just because you’re pissed he got to boink Dany.
If they had showed the old lady being flayed you bet there would have been controversy.
Likewise if they had only implied that Sansa had been raped (cut the final scene last episode and only have her first scene in this episode to show what happened) then there would have been very little controversy in comparison.
Perhaps you should consider directing your “outrage” somewhere besides being angry about what particularly upsets other people. Seems like you don’t care about what happened to either Sansa or the old lady.
One, we never saw the rape itself. Ramsay tearing Sansa’s dress and her crying face was pretty much all that was shown. Two, if you think that completely omitting the whole scene and just mentioning afterwards that she was raped (oh by the way, that rape thing kinda happened to a main character, but it’s OK because we didn’t show it) would make any difference, you’re very mistaken. I’ll grant you that the casual bandwagony waiting-to-be-offended crowd that doesn’t really care about the show or the books wouldn’t be as incensed.
Toast,
Yes, please!
Though logically makes no sense since Margorie is married to Tommen.
Shocked there is so little celebration of the fan-service Strong Belwas placement in this episode. Was a nice little throw in for book fans.
Also really enjoyed that Jorah, even in that situation, was looking to protect Dany – she was clearly disturbed that the fighters were killing eachother – so what does Jorah do? He runs out (yes, in an attempt to be seen by Dany) and beats everyone – without killing any of them, to protect Dany from the sight of more deaths.
Oh, and Littlefinger’s gift to Cersei was Olyvar, a young man with the evidence to allow the arrest of the Tyrells. His gift to Olenna was the same thing – Lancel, a young man with the evidence to allow the arrest of Cersei.
Yung Wolf,
Unfortunatley you can’t make do anything like you attempted when contributing to any ASOIAF/GOT websites. The fan base is the worst in the history of pop culture. Everything has to be serious when it comes to sex unless you are talking about Tormunds member or the Fat Pink Mast. But if it is about sexposition or rape, you are a troll and shunned. And if you critique the show, not because it is an adaptation but because the writing has declined in qulaity every season, then youa are labeled a book purist and shunned from the GoT community. If you say the show has indeed made some good changes and additions, like Tywin/Arya scenes or the Bronn/Hound scene before the Blackwater, you are labeled a show apologist and shunned from the book community. The best possible thing that could happen is something catastrophic befalls HBO and the show has to be cancelled and GRRM never finishes the books. It is the only way there will be peace on the internet
Highlights:
-Sand Snakes tits looked to be perfectly formed.
-Aemon delirious rants
-The northern snow
-Stannis being the Mannis
-That acting is pretty good considering the writing is so mediocre
Lowlights:
-Dany being at that little shitty fighting pit to watch shitty choreography. WTF why would she go there in the first place.
-Every single aspect of the show besides the things I mentioned above.
Queenofthrones,
That is some fantastic argumentation……. If they “implied” Sansa´s rape with the long shots on her naked raped body like they did to the old lady, there would be even stronger controversy.
Btw. i am not outraged about anything, I am just tired of hysterical overreactions of some people with a political agenda over sexual stuff in GoT. I would rather talk about what happened in the episode instead. It was almost impossible after the last episode.
This definitely was the strongest epsiode of this season (tied with episode 5), I actually can´t think of something one could regard as a let-down. But I guess mostly everyone else has pointed out everything what made this one so splendid, so I do not see too many reasons to heat this up again.
However, something else that (quite obviously) needs further discussion is the “handsome boy”. To be honest, I don´t see many persons who could possibly be in the range of Littlefinger, who would fit the description of a “handsome boy” and who would be in any way interesting for Olenna.
The most logical answer would be Olyvar & I´m pretty sure that´s what is hinted at. He´s in LF´s range, he even is an employee in his brothel, plus he can not serve LF anymore due to the obvious lack of intel he could deliver from now on. He´s exposable for him, a used-up investment, but he still is important for Olenna and thus Littlefinger´s best chance to getting the last ounce of use out of him is to get things right with Olenna. Letting him take the role of the “Blue Bard” and recant his accusations of Marge & Loras is the best way to appease Olenna right now, so this is what´s going to happen.
Of course, most of us thought of Olyvar right away, but some still think that the “handsome boy” could be Gendry.
I honestly thinkt that this doesn´t really produce any kind of advantage for LF & why should it? IF he was in LF´s range, he might have rowed back to the Riverlands and must have got caught by LF´s spies or allies. This is unlikely, yet still possible since Gendry might have wanted to return to the Brotherhood without Banners. But even if this happened, why should it be important for Olenna? A bastard of Robert Baratheon is …well, valuable…, but not in this situation and definitely not someone Olenna can use to free Marge & Loras. What would she do with him? Declaring him as a bastard of RB and letting him get executed or giving him to Tommen to show her goodwill (or hold him back to support him once the Lannisters have fallen and the Tyrells are in a forlorn situation)? None of these options really make any sense. The last option that would make at least a bit of sense would be that Gendry could be presented in the “the seed is strong”-way, questioning the legitimation of Tommen, but this would effectively work against the Tyrells since Margaery would then have obviously married an imposter, reducing their claim through marriage to zero. After that, letting her get rid of Tommen or forsaking the holy vows of marriage just to marry a Blacksmith-Bastard of Robert Baratheon while the ultra-conservative sparrows are around, does that really seem logical? Yeah, there´s no way this could work. So this also can´t be an option.
The third option some believe in is Rickon, but how should that be possible? Rickon is believed dead and since we know of LF´s bad state of information concerning Ramsay & Reek, how should he know of a secret this well-kept among such a small amount of people if he even can´t see through Ramasay´s facade? Furthermore, Rickon is way out of his reach, even though LF was in the North this season. And even if that all should somehow have worked out, Olenna couldn´t get much use out of Rickon. No, Rickon being the “handsome boy” doesn´t make sense.
Besides these two guys, Lancel also isn´t the “gift” for Olenna, I´m pretty sure of that. Lancel was a Sparrow from the start of this season, which means he confessed to the HS many and many days before anyone knew this would become important in the end (except the HS, of course). LF might have not have even known that, so why mess around with Lancel now, just based on assumption and by revealing he was involved in King´s Landing´s machinations to some extent? That wouldn´t be a smart move. Furthermore, we witnessed LF´s and Lancel´s little conversation last episode, showing that LF doesn´t have the slightest grasp on Lancel. He can´t be the one to be presented to Olenna, he´s way out of LF´s range.
So this is my little analysis concerning this topic, if I got something wrong, feel free to critizise.
Chad Brick,
I also think this is one of the more plausible theories & it could definitely serve as the final act of proving RLJ. I wouldn´t bet my money on it as of now, but it would make sense.
GaiusB,
Why would you expect that you can talk about episodes? This is GoT fandom. You can only rage about stuff of be a show apologist. There is no middle ground. And if an episode shows tits or rape, it will be raged about until someone points out that there is graphic rape in the books to. Then it comes full circle and everyone watches the Lion King
Quote of the episode:
Sam “It’s Dragonglass. It’s what I used to kill the White Walker.”
So this is the first time he told Jon about that incredibly important fact about Dragonglass
Did anyone notice the new music theme playing during Aemon’s funeral scene? Could be our Oldtown music for next season.
Also – so glad that WINTER IS FINALLY COMING!
To: Here be Dragons
I concur with this observation, Lancel had gone through his redemption months earlier, before the conversation between LF and QoT, so who is this handsome boy that LF will gift Oleanna with to free her grandchildren?
Not only was this episode the best of the season, but one of the five best of the entire series. Three scenes in particular elevated it from a modest 9/10 to 10/10. In order from last to first; Tyrion/Jorah…Tyene/Bronn…and of course the final long scene between Cersei and the High Sparrow. All the actors must be commended for their exemplary portayal in these scenes and young Ms. Sellers held her own with Mr. Flynn, her deliciously devious, humorous slow seduction of Bronn was quite enthralling to watch, and I laughed silently when the other two snakes rushed up to the bars to watch Bronn die and their dejected expressions when their sister gave him the antidote; she obviously enjoyed his singing voice.
What can I say concerning Mr. Pryce and Ms Heady’s absolutely perfect piece of acting that already has been said…nothing, so kudos to them. Their scene together is the pinnacle of not only the season but the entire KL arc to this point, the slow buildup, the music, the tension and the revelation (fist pump) left me smiling. Oh and a shout out to Septa Unella actress Hannah, damn, she can be me my Septa any day.
Ghost has grown!
There were a few echoes of words from other times in this episode.
(1) Again, Cersei promises to set cities on fire. Wasn’t that Aerys ultimate plan? Would she do what he didn’t? That seems to tie in with the vision of Red Keep as Dany saw it.
(2) Similar words from Maggy’s prophecy to Cersei are in the cell scene between Bronn and Tyene. Does Tyene qualify as ‘younger, more beautiful’ coming to take all you hold dear?
(3) Sansa saying ‘Promise me’ to Theon (Reek). Lyanna’s words to Ned, as he recalled them (in the book).
Alfie Allen said we’d come to hate Reek even more this season. How can you hate anyone who is as truly pathetic as Theon or as broken as Reek? Disgust, where Theon’s concerned; that’s more what you’d feel, I think. Is it pity with Reek?
Alfie’s really stepped up this season. I’d suggest him for award nominations.
When LF mentioned ‘handsome young man’ to Olenna, why think he means Rickon? Isn’t he implying Trystane, without saying his name. Unless…. was he tipping the wink to Olenna about others Cersei’s had to ‘warm her bed’?
Aemon’s final scenes were superb. To have his last words include ‘Egg. I dreamed I was old’….
Something was missed at the funeral pyre. Wasn’t Thorne once a Targaryen supporter. He ought to have been more gracious to Sam after the eulogy. Then he could’ve said what he said and have it sound more ironic because he’s lost another member of the family he once stood by.
*** Peter Vaughan’s been in so many TV series and movies, it’s hard not to choose most of them. Porridge would be easiest to choose. One I’d recommend, if you can find it, is Citizen Smith. It’s a political comedy, featuring Robert Lyndsay. The guy can handle comedy as well as serious. Amazing to think he’s 93, and still doing great work! ***
Syrio,
I totally agree, Rosabell did it great. Good actresses doing what they can with scarce/below-par lines. I think it was the best Sand Snake scene to date.
Why the heck can’t Mel use leeches on Shireen? Why would she outright dismiss it? They should at least try.
Or did Mel forget to pack a few for the trip?
Yeah, when Lord Commander Snow, King Stannis or First Ranger Thorne would have taken their heads ?
It was done to show Sam and Gilly are now friendless and without any protection apart from Ghost and must leave Castle Black asap !
By the way, I loved the episode but here comes my main rant, I must scream it :
THAT WAS FOOKIN’ IT ? REALLY SHOW ? 3 SECONDS OF GHOST ????? ONLY ?? FOR FOOK’S SAKE !!! HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN PRESENT WITH JON IN ALL HIS SCENES OF THE SEASON AND WENT TO HARDHOME WITH HIM !!!
The downplay of the direwolves is just… so saddening. I… I just… oh, why bother… 🙁
The funny thing is that while LF claiming that Ramsay was smitten with Sansa was self-serving bullshit, he did seem as smitten in this episode as Ramsay is capable of being. He praises Sansa’s beauty, lets her pointed barbs about being a bastard roll off his back with no ill humour, and doesn’t punish her directly for trying to escape or mouthing off to him. He’s even somewhat good-natured about Sansa’s escape attempt, lightly chiding her about wanting to escape her “home.” Insofar as Ramsay can like anyone, he seems to like Sansa a good deal. We’ll see if Sansa can turn that to her advantage.
Hodor’s Bastard,
I’m putting Mel down as a wild card whose motives/nuances we can’t know for sure until the final season. Bit like Littlefinger, in a way.
If I didn't believe Dario = Euron before - I certainly do now! Especially when he teased her about marrying him. Somethings not right about Dario. Check this out for anyone not familiar with the theory... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Crn_eg-1ekUGRRM has created multi-layed characters. Unfortunetly, he also creates some of the dumbest characters who continue to do dumb things.
TheMannis,
But do we need character development for such incidental characters? It would not have improved the books any if the SS had gotten any character development there, either.
This could be the single most inane fan-theory out there. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance: this is a classic example of that.
Drew,
I just hope there’s actually a reveal on the show. I really want that theory to be true, but as far as the show goes, I’m worried they’ll just have Daario betray Dany without ever actually calling him Euron or tying him in with the IB.
The Rat Kook,
Hodor’s Bastard,
thats what i thought too ..even stannis asks about it why cant use leeches
May be Mel did know that Rob Balon and Joffery are going to die and staged the whole leeches thing to make stannis trust her
Greg,
Jon would have been ok anyway I think. As I remember, Valyrian Steel is speculated to be effective against whitewalkers too?
Hodor’s Bastard,
I think she may be encouraging Stannis to kill his daughter as a way to prove his commitment to the gods. Perhaps when he doesn’t ( I can’t see it happening as there’s no resemblance to what happens in the books if he does sacrifice her) and fails to emulate Azor Ahai then she turns her attention to Jon Snow?
Drew,
It’s certainly possible as I think that sort of betrayel would be the thing that would have the impact to shock Dany into doing something and he seems very comfortable with killing anyone he needs to to get what he wants. In the books he’s viewed through a vision as the biggest threat to Dany so it would be odd if he didn’t have any role at all. The Ironborn do owe the Targs payback from way back to the days of Harran!
dragonbringer,
Balon, alas is not dead yet!
Mustafa. S.,
Mel definitely didn’t stage her two shadow baby births! She has a very confusing agenda, which is aggravatingly intriguing. Although I would like Stannis to take out the Boltons on his own merits and strategies, I’m surprised they aren’t offering/donating Stannis and Shireen’s blood to R’hlorr fire on a daily basis! 🙂
Mel has been pretty adamant in books and show that bigger magic required bigger sacrifices. This is one thing that has an old enough history beyond SoI&F that the general audience will get it. (The issues of volunteered contrition vs. extracted contrition being viewed differently has the same track record.)
That is one good thing about religion, magic, etc., for storytelling: it is a given that drama = power in all of these things.
Ser Duncan The Tall,
Hard to say, but I do expect Theon to reveal that he never killed Bran and Rickon to Sansa this season. With Hardhome and the battle of Winterfell coming, they’ve got a lot to do here. They can’t just let Rickon disappear from the show entirely though…can they??
Come on guys, isn’t it obvious the young handsome man is Hot Pie? What better gift could you ask for in troubled times than kidney pie?
Hardcore,
Yep, I thought she was growing bored, and after Bronn’s rendition of the Dornishman’s Wife, decided she wanted to play with him and bring that to a head. It fit her character in the books. She was definitely enjoying toying with him and yeah, I thought she was trying to get the poison working on him.
That only means that he creates realistic characters!
TheTouchOfFrost,
i was talking about books …but i do believe we will hear about Balon death before this season ends
Hodor’s Bastard,
Too bad stannis the mannis is not man enough to make another shadow baby ..
but i do wonder what happened to those Shadow babies ..do they just melt away after finishing their mission ..why cant they be called again for a new assignment
Pigeon,
Fair enough. And by clueless, I was simply referring to people’s frustration that she’s not active in the way Arya is, or shrewd in the ways of this world.
How precious.
Keep trying.
No, but he almost certainly cannot be the “handsome young man.” For one thing, what good is he to Olenna? How does Rickon help get her grandchildren out of their fix and/or strike back at Cersei? Rickon would be the Bolton’s and Stannis’ problem now.
However…..
I think that we might have gotten our link back to Rickon in this episode. Look at it this way. Who in Stannis’ camp is most apt to object to Mel’s plan, even more so than Stannis himself? (doo-do-doo.. c’mon, you know the answer.)
If said person were to abscond with the young sacrifice (for Stannis’ own good, after all), well he’d have to flee somewhere. That person might not be much on land travel, but he would be very good at general geography: so he might wind up going to where Rickon is.
And because that person is more loyal to Stannis than Stannis is to himself, well, he just might return later with the true King in the North to show Stannis that he doesn’t need magic to win.
This is pure conjecture, of course, but given where things are going, this could happen.
Fancy word for a sellsword,
I was thinking Gendry or Jon Snow.
armsbendback,
Wherever they go with the Dorne plot, I definitely hope there’s something a lot more intelligent than what we’ve seen thus far. It’s interesting too that the idea of Bronn siding with the Sand Snakes would be taken as a horrible betrayal of Jaime/Lannisters instead of a form of heroism or at least choosing a better team to work for. Just a measure of how badly they’ve botched and mischaracterized Dorne in the show.
Cersei really wants to burn a city to the ground. She looked way too happy when telling Tommen that.
There is a certain subset of fans that always want things to be complicated rather than simple. However, good storytellers make things simple. If nothing else, then it is like the old adage about the benefit of not telling lies being that you don’t have to remember them all. (Of course, human memory is bad enough that most of our memories are false, anyway, but that’s a separate issue.)
Or, as my icon said, never multiply explanations until you need to do so!
Wimsey,
Oh there’s no way he’s the one referred to by Littlefinger. Seems pretty clear that LF is referring to Lancel, as Lancel’s reveal comes not long afterward. But the way the show is going, they’re loath to introduce too many new characters or plotlines, so I think it’s pretty hard to imagine Davos going on an abbreviated version of the mission from the books.
Wimsey,
That’s not a bad theory. It’s really going to suck if they turn their backs on all the progress Stannis has made as a character though. But yeah, clearly one man would be willing to object even at pain of death.
Wimsey,
i remember back in season 3 how everyone was hoping that Talisa will somehow turn out to be a Spy of Tywin
sometimes things are just what it looks like plain and simple and obvious..
Darrio is Darrio .and LF’s mention may just be about Lancel
What good are either of these two to Olenna? Remember, LF is offering her important information of the sort that he gave Cersei. He gave Cersei information that put Loras in jail, and that dragged Margaery down with him. (Whether LF knew that would happen is unclear, but also unimportant: Cersei would have made sure that Olyvar provided that testimony, true or false.)
So, how do either Gendry or Jon Snow provide something similar for Olenna? What do either of these two do to either: 1) absolve Loras and/or Margaery; or, 2) strike back at Cersei?
Wimsey,
Ok…let’s break it down…
One quick shag = shadowbaby –> Renly (king, brother) dies in his tent
Another shag = shadowbaby –> Penrose dies at Storms End
Gendry/Edric blood via leech = fate shift/coincidence –> Robb (king) dies
Gendry/Edric blood via leech = fate shift/coincidence –> Joff (king) dies
Gendry/Edric blood via leech = (book only) fate shift/coincidence –> Balon (king) dies
Florent sacrifice = fate shift/coincidence –> Defeat Mance/iron bank blessing
No sacrifice –> Mel burns an eagle in the air, immune to poison
Obviously, WF infiltration and Bolton compromise will require some major R’hlorr mojo, because as you say, the stakes are higher and the story demands it. Hopefully, Mel’s spells aren’t quota-driven!
I hope Stannis weighs this situation, kicks Mel out of his force, tells R’hlorr to go suck it and defeats the Boltons on his own merits and strategies.
In season 1, maybe it was season 2(?), Tyrion and Bronn are talking about Slynt killing off Robert’s bastards, including the baby at Littlefingers brothel. Tyrion makes a comment about killing innocent children. He asked Bronn if he would if he was ordered to. Bronn said he wouldn’t if ordered, but would ask “how much?”. For enough gold, Bronn would kill anyone.
Don’t get me wrong, I do love the character but he is a killer for hire. We can love a character, even if they kill on command or for gold. Jaime pushed a child from a window. We get the motivation, to protect Cersei/kids. Sandor killed Mycah, on the orders of his “Master”. Both characters, even with the dark clouds, are still revered. So I definitely think the SS offering enough gold to Bronn to help off Myrcella would make a lot of sense.
To the episode, I loved the direction. Top notch. Rigg and Pryce continue to own this season, even moreso than the regulars. I know last season, so many said this is Lena Headey’s year. She has been fantastic, but Pryce and Rigg have owned every scene. It may be too early to even think about it but Emmy nods for both would be well deserved.
The Dorne stuff continues to underwhelm in a big way for me.
I can see how Sophie Turner’s portrayal of Sansa may not engage everyone but I think she has been really solid. She is the best crier on the show. A depressing distinction but the girl can turn on convincing waterworks and considering everything Sansa has been through, two steps forward-a thousand steps back, you can’t help but feel her hopelessness.
As much as I dislike the Sansa/WF stuff, I just had different hopes for her arc this season, if Stannis lets anyone hurt Shireen, then I may revolt.
If that does come to pass, I seriously believe
You missed the Lancel and Cersei scene in the opening episode of THIS season, when he comes to ask her forgiveness during Tywin’s funeral. The show did exactly what it needed to; more would have been overkill.
Yes, nothing “clueless” in my corner either, and I agree with your overall view.
I found Tyene flashing her awesome boobs to speed up Bronn’s heartrate and have the poison work quicker, and Jorah rushing in to the pit to knock-out fighters instead of them being killed, to please “Khaleesi”, quite well-done. Tyene and Jorah both showed a very good understanding of another’s mindset.
Arkash,
Agreed. Jon’s going on this mission and he just leaves Ghost, and Ghost puts up with this and just hangs around Castle Black doing odd jobs? I’m always happy to see him, but if they aren’t going to do it right, it’s just frustrating for him to show up for a moment like that.
But… but… Daario and Euron both HAVE BLUE EYES!!!! And pale skin!!!! With dark hair!!! I mean, what are the odds of TWO people looking like that?!?!?
The fools don’t get that Daario really is Benjen Stark gone awol. Check out my 200 page blog debunking every book fact contradicting it: http://don't-go-here-ravings.net. It’s even better because in my theory, Benjen’s fake gold tooth really is Valyrian Gold, the long-forgotten secret ingredient for making new Valyrian steel, which he stole from the White Walkers and Children of the Forest (who are secret allies)…..
Seriously, the Talisa idea was, at least, inspired by the books. There was, however, zero evidence that it was true on the show: whereas GRRM provided some subtle hints that the book “plant” was just that before his big reveal. (Oh, how the Robbettes hated that idea….)
Gun hung, gun fired!
Seriously, the range of criticisms that the show gets must be frustrating. On one hand, fans criticize the show for leaving out details in Season 2 that might be important in the final two books. On the other hand, fans criticize the show for not setting things up properly when Episode 1 did set up something in Episode 7.
Sansa is becoming “clued,” although she certainly started out at “clueless.” On the whole, they really have done a good job of the arc that I think GRRM intends: the “stupid duckling” arc. Yes, the pretty air-head can turn out to be a pretty brainy (or at least average intelligence) person if she actually just starts to think for herself. It’s 90˚ from Hermione Granger (or Arya Stark).
One thing that I did like: she was not so much pleading with Theon as actually ordering him: she was even physically shaking him. Sansa Stark of old would never have done that to anyone other than a serving woman.
Yung Wolf,
Obviously if he didn’t want it he wouldn’t have dressed that way. /s
Seriously though, seemed consensual to me. Maybe we blame the director?
Cersei’s Wine Goblet,
I think antidote. But she revved up the poison by raising his heartrate with her little show.
Chad Brick,
I didn’t mean that all the Sparrows were followers of the Old Gods, just HS. The way he speaks about worship and clearly cutting away the ostentatious bullshit commonly associated with worship falls in line with how Northerners worship. And yeah, with R+L=J, it would make the most sense for HR to go about things this way, not to mention getting vengeance for Ned. If he were to be introduced by having him just pop up at some point saying “I’m HR!”, it would come across as awkward and arbitrary.
Brienne will have to choose between killing Stannis or saving Sansa…it is so.
I agree. But in this case, the main reason people are assuming Littlefinger was offering her somebody other than Lancel is because it being Lancel (and I agree that’s the case) makes very little sense.
Wimsey,
Wimsey,
It was implied (early in the season) that Lancel already confessed to the HS when he confronted Cersei so why should it be Lancel? Olyvar can’t retract his statement about Loras and Marg and why would he.
The Tyrells could back Gendry as heir to the throne and also show that Cersei’s offspring have blond hair and Roberts offspring have black hair which further supports the claim that Cersei’s offspring are the product of incest.
The Tyrells could also back Jon as heir to the throne since LF knows Neds secret.
In either case it bring the Lannisters down.
As for getting her kids out of jail, well it buys more time for another plan while the focus is shifted from them to Cersei. The people hate her and it is always a wise choice to keep the mob happy.
My thoughts as well. This was one of the first character scenes for the snakes, where they had to interact with someone they just met. We now know the kind of games Tyene likes to play, something about her strengths and weaknesses, and of course that she has an amazing body, which isn’t unimportant for characterization, Oberyns character for example would have been different without the sexiness.
And the reactions of the other sisters shows us something about them too. Nyms eyeroll was the most character we got from her up until now.
Sean C.,
Agreed. Lancel seems to be the obvious implication, but then in the same episode the writers made it clear through the High Sparrow’s dialogue that Lancel had been in their hands (as we’ve seen) and slowly confessing for a while now. So… What could Littlefinger possibly do? The damage was already done.
Either this is a really badly told plot point or Littlefinger isn’t talking about Lancel.
TheTouchOfFrost,
LOL! Was I the only one that said or an approximation thereof when Melly went: “you are still not convinced” to Stannis?!
I will go with Stannis will remain stubborn and refuse his daughter’s sacrifice. And that will mean defeat against the Boltons. The only way I see Shireen burnt is if she’s far from Davos or Stannis. Can I just add that Davos will probably make it his life mission to kill the witch should she try her fire on the little one. It will be completely in character.
Luka Nieto,
The writers tried to do two things simultaneously here that collectively mess up the plot:
1) They condensed several things, merging Lancel with whichever Kettleblack it was who confessed in the book — whereas in the book, Lancel confessed his sins to the High Septon that Cersei had murdered, here he’s confessing to the High Sparrow himself, supposedly for a while. And there’s never been any indication that he was deliberately holding back anything from the High Sparrow. If you remove the scene with Littlefinger and Olenna, by far the most plausible interpretation of the scenario is the High Sparrow has known this for a while and has just been getting all his ducks in a row.
2) Much as with the Sansa marriage plot in season 3, they wanted to cram in roles in the story for a bunch of other characters who weren’t involved in the book versions (Olenna, Baelish), unduly complicating what was actually a pretty simple plot.
I loved Nym’s eyeroll at Tyene’s seductress shtick. That was a perfect character beat and made both of them seem more human.
…If Arrested Westeros doesn’t do a “Say goodbye to these” caption for Tyene flashing Bronn, I will never forgive them.
I think that GRRM (and B&W) are going for a different tact. Christianity (and, to a lesser extent, Judaism) historically was very divided about “ostentatious bullshit.” To greatly simplify the arguments, there were those who believed that God was worth the pomp and circumstance of the greatest of kings, there were those believed that God hated these things because they distracted worshippers from him, and (as always) there were a wide range of views in between. Much of the “corruption” that would periodically be purged from the Medieval church (and that was a key issue during the Reformation) involved the pomp and circumstance. Was it idol worship, or was it glorifying god? Well, you can find Biblical chapter and verse to support all the views.
The Northern religion seems to be very different yet again. They do not have Churches or much (if anything) in the way of organized clericdom. It might be loosely based on some conjecture about what Druidic religions were like (about which we actually know next to nothing), or it might be based on popular “new age” notions of Druidic religions (which might not have existed before now, but currently exist), or it might be purely fantastic.
At any rate, to a Northern Tree Worshipper, the Sparrow and the prior High Septon were still one and the same: promoters of centralized, organized religion in set buildings with lots of pomp and circumstance (one with too much, the other with ridiculous amounts). Both impose very stringent rules on behavior that the Northern religion does not seem to do. Indeed, a Northerner would ask the High Sparrow: how are you really different from the prior Septon?
Except that the plot is far from messed up: almost nobody is having any problem following this.
The Rat Kook,
I’ve never bought the D=E theory, but I don’t think it is out of the question he is somehow involved with the SoH.
Someone above mentioned the name drop of Balon and the leeches. I don’t think there’s any way that is random. I think it was a reminder for the audience, so when the leech finally (and it’s about time) does its work, the audience doesn’t have to pause and think back.
It’s also good to see several other people mentioning Gendry. As I said last night, I think the idea is way out there (and born in part fro just wanting to see hm, again), but I’d expected people to call me crazy. That isn’t to say I’m not crazy, but at least some other folks are, too. 🙂
Jorah isn’t a free man. He was exiled with the promise of being executed if he came back into Meereen.
“By Tommen Baratheon. Another bastard”. Say what you want about Sansa, she is learning with everyone she meets. A few encounters with the Queen of Thorns and she becomes the Queen of Sass.
Lancel doesn’t know about the incest. At least, he knows as much as everyone else, he’s heard rumours. He can accuse Cersei of fornication (not adultery, since they started fucking after Bobby B’s untimely demise) and kingslaying.
The Kingsalayer Lannister siblings.
And the Tyrells are not plotting against the Lannisters, just against Cersei. Why would they? Margeary has consummated the marriage to easily manipulated Tommen. If mommy wasn’t around it would be perfect, why support another to the throne instead of just getting rid of her?
Not really. They could simply ask Lancel: will you tell us with whom you sinned? Was it with the Queen Regent?
As LF noted, the Lannister name is quite a name to abandon: and Lancel probably would not have abandoned all loyalty to his family. After all, he did ask Cersei to repent her sins, etc., at the outset: and as we’ve seen, the Church treats voluntary penitents differently from convicted penitents. Moreover, assuming that this is like Christianity, then the issue would have been Lancel confessing his sins: from the Church’s point of view, that it was Cersei probably is not too much different than anything else. (You might say: “Ew, incest!”: but as it seems that cousins routinely marry in this world, this church seems to have a narrower definition of consanguinity than the Christian Church sometimes has had; also, the fact that she was the Queen is a violation of secular law, not Ecclesiastic law.)
And, of course, there is the issue of bringing this to the High Sparrows attention. There is no reason why he would know the particulars of Lancel’s case: after all, Lancel is just another Brother, and it is very improbable that the HS was Lancel’s religious “mentor” during Seasons 3 & 4. (Wasn’t Lancel supposed to be back at Castle Gold at that time, anyway?)
Valaquen,
I swear, if they do a ‘Selmy’ with Jorah, I’m going to kick things.
Indeed! So, we’ll probably get the compromise: the death sentence gets commuted to a fight-to-the-death sentence. It’s not like real societies do not have similar rules, and it’s just a particular case of the general “I’ll defend my honor by killing someone” option that they have in Westeros.
Sean C.,
While I tend to disagree with your overall attitude to the adaptation and your rather condescending replies to certain comments (okay i’m done now) your conciseness in exhibiting these flaws to the adaptation would be lent well to a paper or essay on how A Song of Ice and Fire is, in earnest, an impossible adaptation.
Do you agree? If it wasn’t D&D at the helm do you think the adaptation could realistically be executed in a near seamless fashion? Or is there just too many factors (many of them external) involved to pull it off?
About the Gilly attempted rape scene. I didn’t see that as a plot device for Sam and Gilly to sleep together. That thought never even crossed my mind until I read Sue’s recap. My obvious thought that was that it was a point of emphasis to heads Aemon’s words to get Gilly and her baby south. It’s simply not safe for them at the wall.
Overall I really liked the episode. The board is set for the rest of the season.
I’m having a hard time watching the Winterfell scene’s, but I’m assuming that is by design. It’s not a story line we should be enjoying, but my hope is that there will be a payoff and it will be oh so sweet.
Well, in the books (spoilers, because, well, principle, I suppose)
Wimsey,
Yes, but he says that after it’s common knowledge. It’s not like he had special insight about it and can tell the High Sparrow something new. Much less testify, he’s not a witness of that.
People “following” it doesn’t mean it isn’t messed up. The whole thing does not make sense when you actually think about it.
I doubt very much that it would have been Lancel who LF was talking about. Because:-
1. He stated in Episode 1 to Cersei that he had already confessed (maybe not to HS in person yet). But he had unburdened his soul.
2. In this episode the High Sparrow definitely implies that Lancel’s confession has been over an extended period.
3. Olenna’ primary concern is getting her grandchildren out of clink. How would Lancel dishing on Cersei achieve that? Good for revenge, but not for her first order of business.
I think it will be Olyvaar. LF gave him to Cersei to get her to overplay her hand. LF knows what sort of person Cersei is and that she couldn’t resist the temptation to go down to the black cells below the Great Sept of Baelor to gloat at Margery while pretending to poor Tommen to be helping. In such a place the armed Kingsguard would not be allowed to follow. Otherwise how would the HS have got her unprotected – which is the key to her successful arrest? She was the primary target all along and Margery & Loras were just bait.
LF has, I’m sure, instructed Olyvaar to now recant, but what about the sparrows torture techniques? It may not be that easy after all.
If I recall, then Lancel says that he had confessed his sins. “I slept with a woman who was another man’s wife” is a confession of the sin that he committed. “Who was that woman?” is irrelevant to the sin: “not my wife” often is sufficient, although “another man’s wife” often compounds the sin. (The Bible and Quran, for example, at times distinguish between fornicating and adultery: the latter is always a special case of the former, obviously, but a worse case.)
If LF simply says: “why not ask Lancel with whom he committed his sin so that this sinner might be allowed to unburden herself,” well, one more layer might get peeled away.
And, again, not that it’s too important: but are we told that Lancel confessed his sins to the High Sparrow or simply that he confessed his sins? Not all Christians confess to the Pope or Patriarch of Constantinople or the Archbishop of Canterbury, after all: in fact, I suspect that very few of them do!
Simple: make the Church a common enemy of both the Tyrells and the Lannisters, and all of a sudden the Lannisters will become much more cooperative about working against the Church. Also, Olenna knows perfectly well that Cersei is the one who engineered this: so, getting her out of the way makes it easier for Olenna to do what she needs to do.
Again, what other “handsome young man” has information that is of any use to Olenna in freeing her grandkids and/or counterattacking Cersei? (And, yes, counterattacking Cersei is Priority 1B at this point.)
I have nothing substantial to contribute; I felt like this episode was one of the most entertaining of the season, but I also disliked some of the moves they made. Forgive me if this is from the book, but one that stuck out at me was Alliser’s comment to Sam. They’ve gone out of their way to make sure we felt like Alliser was an asshole, but an asshole who’s snobbery only came from dedication to the Watch. Tonight, his comment just made him seem like a self-centered nefarious villain.
Beyond that, not much to say besides this… Forget celebrity crush, I’m in love with Tyene.
That statement sort of sums it up.
There was no question in my mind that it was Lancel before reading this thread. While I still believe that LF was referring to Lancel, I have to question the execution of this “reveal” if so many are uncertain.
Yung Wolf,
Dude, just stop. STAHP. You think you are much more charming than you are. You clog up the comment section looking for lolz & approval. Nobody likes you so you try harder. You’re not funny & you have nothing intelligent to add. & ‘sarcasm’ over text to strangers is near impossible. Again, STOP. Thanks.
This episode was not very great either. Another pointless threat of rape scene with Gilly. Too much treading water and wasting time this season. Good material from the books went unused for boring repetitive dumb stuff made for the show. The writing has been bad–nothing memorable. It leads to uninspired acting. The last few eps better pay off. Either way I’d like if we got new show runners to finish this thing off. D&D have lost it.
It should not be. I think that people are talking themselves out of the obvious. You can do that with anything!
Also, I think people might be leaving out the fact that tearing down Cersei is one of Olenna’s goals at this point.
Along these lines…. Is it possible that
*GIDDYNESS RISING*
You are kidding right? I guess is from the mouth of a true purist.
If they woulda gone exactly AFFC this shit would have been worse!
This is a truly amazing episode and it seems you already have your mind made up attacking D&D every chance you get.
As far as Gilly… Well guess who came up with the characters on The Wall, same guy that wrote the books. Thives, murderes and rapist is what they are. So is okay if they attack Sam but the moment they attack Gilly you gonna cry? I can see the bullshit right through you.
No, it all is quite sensible if you think about it starting from scratch rather than from the book. Everything that has happened here is a probable outcome following other things that have happened. Or do you read history books and say: “this must all be fake because I would have done things differently, therefore these people did things differently?”
Ria,
In an alternate universe, his comments are actually clever and funny.
Ah, Bizzaroverse! However, that is DC comic property….
This was my favorite episode of the season, and from a purely emotional standpoint, one of the most satisfying of the entire series. From a structural perspective, there have been more cohesive episodes this season, largely due to the sheer number of storylines this one had to service. But especially compared to last week’s installment, everything from the dialogue to the various thematic parallels felt lighter and stronger, and the intoxicating high generated by two key moments in particular elevated the entire episode to another level.
King’s Landing
Jonathan Pryce. He is a walking legend. His scenes last night … THAT is why you hire an actor of his caliber for this role. From the moment that I learned that Olenna Tyrell would be returning to King’s Landing this season, I dearly hoped that the writers would have the obvious good sense to put Pryce and Diana Rigg in a scene together. They did, and it did not disappoint – watching two legendary actors sizing one another up in that context is a luxury few shows other than Game of Thrones can give us.
As great as the High Sparrow’s conversation with the Queen of Thorns was, however, it couldn’t eclipse the scene in which the High Sparrow reveals his true plans for Cersei . I’ve watched it several times now, and Pryce’s performance as he digs into that rich, wonderfully written monologue never ceases to amaze me – the combination of his calm menace and the searing fanaticism dancing in his eyes made for an absolutely mesmerizing image.
I don’t want to overlook Lena Headey’s contribution to that scene as well. She was awesome, even as she was mostly reacting to the force of nature unveiling itself before her. Cersei’s calm, self-satisfied arrogance slowly melting away into uncertainty, fear, and finally rage as she was dragged away was spectacular, and she was wonderful in her scenes with Tommen and Margaery as well. This was Headey’s best episode of the season to date, and a fine showcase for her during a season in which I think she will be richly deserving of Emmy consideration. With the hardships Cersei will be facing over the rest of the season, I expect further greatness from Lena in the weeks to come.
Meereen
I expressed my unequivocal enthusiasm for the long-awaiting meeting of Tyrion Lannister and Daenerys Targaryen last night. After sleeping on it, that enthusiasm hasn’t dimmed. With these two characters now in the same place – and no secret identities or contrivances to keep them from being fully honest with one another – the floodgates of immense possibility have opened in this particular corner of the world.
I don’t care if we had to toss out a thousand pages of the source material to get there – for the sake of Game of Thrones as a TV series, this union needed to happen, and it needed to happen now. Of course, my sincere hope remains that Tyrion’s arrival will help facilitate Dany’s departure from Meereen by early next season, if not sooner. But the glow of their potential interactions is so bright that I’m perfectly happy to revel in a few episodes of direct conversations between the two. Once the requisite work has been done to establish their relationship, only then will I turn my hopeful eyes towards the day when they will pack up the dragons and leave the god-forsaken morass that is Slaver’s Bay forever.
Also, poor Jorah. That sentiment can safely be expressed most weeks, but this week it’s especially apt. Iain Glen is such a gifted non-verbal actor – the moment when when he laid eyes on Dany for the first time in nearly a season was wonderful. Unfortunately, we know from the trailers that she’s not going to forgive him easily.
The show needs more dinosaurs: “The night is dark and full of pterodactyls”
Sorry, just trying to lighten the mood…
The Wall
I seldom find myself caring one way or another about the presence, absence, or alteration of certain iconic lines from the books. That being said, I’m not entirely immune to their appeal. As such, I was thrilled that Aemon’s dying words to his brother – “Egg, I dreamed that I was old.” – made it into the show. Peter Vaughn was a treasure in this role, and he will be greatly missed.
Sam and Gilly finally consummating their relationship was lovely. I can understand the concerns about a near-rape serving as the catalyst for that moment, particularly in the aftermath of last week. However, I thought sufficient groundwork had been laid, both with their relationship and the circumstances in which they found themselves, to make it work. The bad nature of many Night’s Watchmen has been well-established, and by the operational logic of this world, the fact that no one had tried to assault Gilly yet was more surprising than anything. Without Jon there to keep them in check, this felt like a logical thing that would happen, and I’m pleased it led to something good (as well as a badass appearance from Ghost).
Stannis
Some people are expressing concern about Shireen’s safety now that Melisandre has urged Stannis to sacrifice her. I think those concerns are valid, but I personally don’t believe it’s going to happen. I think that Stannis’s speech to Shireen about how he saved her from Greyscale served to establish just how much he loves her and to plant the idea that she is the one thing that he will not sacrifice in his quest for the Iron Throne. When Stannis flinched away from the Red Woman’s touch, I took it as a sign that this will be the issue that leads him to break away from her.
Winterfell
It’s heartbreaking to see Sansa in such a state, but if the show is going to tell this story, I appreciate that they aren’t taking shortcuts or shying away from the consequences. For those who were concerned that the horror of Sansa’s wedding night would serve no greater purpose but to snap Theon out of his traumatized state so he could save the distressed damsel, last night’s episode proved that the show isn’t taking that easy track. Reek’s decision to go to Ramsay rather than light the candle was heartbreaking, but it felt true. It’s clear at this point – to me, the audience, and hopefully to Sansa – that the Lady of Winterfell is going to have to save herself. Her deft swiping of the corkscrew(?), her sharp digs at Ramsay’s bastard heritage, and the shots of her in the preview for next week gave me hope that she is ready to take matters into her own hands and enact a series of moves that will liberate her from Ramsay’s clutches … and hopefully lead to his demise.
Dorne
After last week, I said that the Sand Snakes had some work to do to win back my favor. Lo and behold, they took a big step in the right direction in this episode – or at least Tyene did. When that scene (which was used for Tyene’s audition) leaked several months back, I was concerned about how it would play on screen, but I needn’t have worried. With proper rhythm and atmosphere to complement the dialogue, it crackled. Rosabell Laurenti Sellers did a very good job portraying a woman who was both incredibly seductive and incredibly dangerous. There was even a moment during her taunting monologue when she tilted her head and let her eyes go cold in a way that was very evocative of … well, a poisonous snake.
For me, that scene reinforced the idea that the largely negative response to the Sand Snakes has stemmed from their individual characters not being well-established before they were thrust into combat. Obara was also better this week, as I found her more restrained demeanor and open exasperation with her sister’s flirtatious display far more interesting than her angry declarations of vengeance. (So far, Nymeria is the only Sand Snake who hasn’t gotten an opportunity to really establish herself, for better or for worse. I hope that she gets her moment before the end of the season).
The conversation between Jaime and Myrcella was something I had been looking forward to for a while, as Jaime’s uncertain and awkward embrace of his fatherly responsibilities is something that I find very interesting and hope to see explored at greater length. As such, I was a little disappointed that their conversation wasn’t longer and didn’t go more in depth, but that also felt true to the characters and their circumstances. When Myrcella told her secret father, “You don’t know me,” Jaime’s face revealed how true those words were, and how much they hurt. I hope they get more scenes together.
Wimsey,
I agree. I didn’t think it was anyone other than Lancel. And if so, why not just say that. Why speak in riddles?
Sure he can. They haven’t had the trial yet. During the trial he could say he was lying and Cersei paid/forced him to lie.
GameofHype,
Actually I wonder if LF is being coy and facetious, could it be
Thanks for your efforts! :O) As someone rooting for both Shireen and Sansa I’m watching the show through my fingers at the moment :O(
Without trying to diminish your efforts in any way, apparently they weren’t actually dinosaurs, although were certainly around at the same time. However, if we keep that to ourselves, no-one needs to know. Shhhhhh! I won’t tell if you don’t ;O)
I also like the night is dark and full of terriers version. The greatest threat is small yappy dogs running around under your feet. They look innocent enough but there could be pure evil under that fur ;O)
Well, there are crows all over the place!
(Also, pterodactyls aren’t dinosaurs, although I’ve never understood why: they are closest relatives, but vertebrate zoologists put them in two different groups within some name I cannot remember.)
/pedantic.
(Aw, who am I kidding? That never goes off! 🙂 )
No, it’s not. It’s riddled with plot holes.
Wimsey,
Shhhh! You probably didn’t see my reply before posting yours, but we’re keeping the pterodactyl thing between ourselves! Gotta have some secrets around here, what with the show starting to overtake the books and all ;O)
Jared,
I haven’t had any issues with the Sand Snakes themselves, just with the poorly thought out plot changes that have ensued. The focus on revenge instead of a more intelligent and bold plot to actually seize the throne via Myrcella has really cheapened their impact and diminished Dorne’s stature as a place apart from the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. As has the ludicrous, “let’s stroll into the Water Gardens in broad daylight” plans perpetrated by both sets of contestants in the Myrcella sweepstakes. It was good to see Tyene distinguish herself and Sellers did a great job getting a lot of character into one charged scene. Hopefully that whole plotline will take a smarter turn now that all the characters are gathered together.
Wimsey,
Agreed. While Lancel has confessed to the Faith and performed whatever atonement they required to be declared “pure” and of a “light soul,” he did not necessarily name the person with whom he sinned. Or, if he did, there was no one else who could corroborate his story, and the Faith do seem to want third-party verification. What Littlefinger offered Olenna was the information that Lancel and Cersei had slept together and perhaps even plotted to kill Robert. Olenna would take it from there; perhaps finding a third party, or simply talking to the High Sparrow and making it known that others know about their past relationship.
That said… I kinda like the Gendry idea. I haven’t mapped out a timeline; does anyone recall where Littlefinger was when Gendry rowed away from Dragonstone? If it was during his disappearing act, sailing between King’s Landing and the Vale, then I would definitely be on board with having Baelish keep Gendry up his sleeve as an ace to be pulled at the appropriate time. The question is: is this that time? I’m inclined to say no… I think getting Olenna going on Lancel/Cersei is enough to start with. Why play your ace when you have another card that might work, with no fallout if it doesn’t?
(Greetings, Watchers on the Wall, from a fellow book fan who loves the conversation, but whose schedule requires more lurking than posting. :D)
Edit: Wow, the conversation went right by me while typing. Love it. 🙂 Alix the Direwolf… I do like your idea here about Baelish using Loras (and whomever else gets pulled in, like Margaery) as bait for Cersei; it totally works for me.
Well, scratch the dinos – “The night is dark and full of pterosaurs” then. Better? 😉
bloody pedants… :-p
I’m guessing Arya will be left out of episode 10 too. That’s 5 episodes total lmfao. A new record for her shitty storyline.
Arya Havin’ a larf?,
Sorry, I didn’t mean you had the name wrong, but that *whispers* they weren’t dinosaurs *whispers*.
Still appreciate your effort though! I have a horrible feeling next week is going to be make or break time for Baratheon Jr and I might need A LOT of consoling afterwards. But she’s still alive until next monday at 2am so I can cling to my dreams until then *forces Margery-type deliriously happy smile* ;O)
Wimsey,
Okay, I officially give up on trying to understand the taxonomical morass that are dinosaurs, birds, and related vertebrates. My long-gone school years were such a lie! Also, my biology teacher has apparently misled me about fungi being plants. Another lie! Is nothing sacred anymore?
KissedByFire,
The problem with Gendry is, what good is he (or information about him) to Olenna? Really, the only person who has any particular use for Gendry at this point is Stannis!
King Stannis,
Ugh, it so lazy & dismissive to respond to anyone who criticizes the show by saying “book purist!” as if that is an effective counterargument.
It’s not about following the books, its that this season has been boring and uninspired. D&D could make an episode of a 55 minute slow zoom on a literal piece of poop and you’d find a way to defend it.
7 episodes in watching Arya slowly sweep floors = Boring. Ever heard of a training montage? Covers lots of ground in a short amount of time and is actually exciting.
That’s just one example. This season is treading water for the last few episodes when they should have been story telling. The show treats it’s audience like idiots (true, most couch potato viewers are idiots and need to be beaten over the head with a point for it to sink in–for those of us with a brain, this is condescending and cringe worthy.)
Seriously. It all starts with the scripts, & they have deteriorated mightily. Bad scripts = bad episodes = bad season. Same with movies. If the script is bad, you’re building on a swamp and you’re doomed. Name one memorable thing that’s happened this season so far?
If your teacher told you that funguses are plants, then I’d say incompetence is pretty sacred! At any rate, just watch “Dinosaur Train”: that will set you straight.
Oh, and for the record, Lulu’s Mum: I approve of more dinosaurs, more pterosaurs, even more crocodiles! The night is dark and full of raptors worked really well in the first Jurassic Park film. And as a biologist, I do like that Drogon & Co. have just four limbs: it’s silly, but the four legs + two wings dragons always drives me nuts. I mean, isn’t it a plot hole?!?!?!?!
🙂
Lulu’s Mum,
You know, there is a bit of an Agamemnon / Iphigenia vibe about Stannis and Shireen. Since Shireen is probably the most purely good character in the saga I can’t help thinking GRRM has a grisly ending for her part in the story. I hope NOT of course but…
Given the demographics, most of the audience thinks that brains are better spent on their careers than on SciFi/Fantasy.
Well, to be honest, it was a while back.
Apparently Arya sweeping floors seems to be indelibly imprinted for some obsessive types.
Oh, wasn’t that what you meant?
Lulu’s Mum,
No more watching Dinosaur Train for you, Lulu’s Mom! :p
Also, nice going with the color of the seal btw! Whoever noticed that, nailed it. And obviously my Sherlock Holmes skills need a little fine tuning…
Wimsey,
I thought you were a scientist? Why are you using the colloquial “funguses” instead of the more scientific fungi as the plural?
Mr Fixit,
Well, I suppose if you are 200 or so, then it’s OK, Mr. Fixit.
Or should I write, Maester Aemon?
Euron’s Blue Lips,
– Jon is chosen as Lord Commander,beheads Janos Slynt,makes an alliance to let the wildlings south of the Wall
– Tyrion is kidnapped by Jorah,they pass through Valyria,are attacked by Stonemen, and Jorah catches greyscale
– Tyrion Lannister meets Daenerys Targaryen(Seriously, Dany is now connected to one of the other big 3 characters for the first fucking time!)
– Cersei arms the Faith
– Loras and Margaery are arrested
– Cersei’s own scheming leads to her downfall
Now, quick, tell me what happened that was so memorable in the first halves of each of the last 2 books? What should have appeared in the first half of this season? The Kingsmoot? Most show watchers hate the Iron Born, and the leading protagonist in this storyline would be Yarasha, who is a tertiary character, at best.
Wimsey,
Doesn’t make a lot of sense to me to believe that Gendry is “proof” of anything to anyone. Ned and Jon Arryn are long gone, and anyone else who might use his looks to prove that Tommen isn’t a Baratheon would look to be pulling something out of a hat to further their own desires.
Euron’s Blue Lips,
I don’t agree on most counts, but the Dorne plot has been totally uninspired and undermining of it’s characters, and they’ve really blown it in Braavos. A lot of the best stuff in the books comes from Arya’s training and they’ve ignored just about all of it. She lies to a dying girl and so she’s instantly a trained assassin ready to wear another’s face? Where is the deprivation of her sense to sharpen the others? Training with weapons, learning to thieve, etc.? Obviously they only have so much time, but they’ve wasted plenty of it that would’ve been better used serving Arya’s story.
This episode was a let down. Seems like the plot is created to give actors something to do.
– Sansa badass vs Sansa victim gets tiring
– Why would Stannis take Shireen north???
– What is Brienne doing? Must have been staring at winterfell for weeks now (littlefinger’s travelling time notwithstanding)
– why would Danny go to shitty fighting pit?
– cersei recycles devotion to children-speeches
– Why Would Jamie go to Dorne??? With bronn??? Like he cares about Myrcella…
– having sex with Sam after almost Being raped? Like that is normal.
Wimsey,
I’m feeling lazy, so I just copied part of what I posted about this last night:
There’s another possibility, although it’s pretty out there, and born in large part from wanting to see this character, again. Gendry. LF knows how both Jon Arryn and Ned figured out all Cersei’s kids were bastards. He also knows Genrdy escaped the masacre of Robert’s bastards, if I remember correctly. How LF would have found Gendry is beyond me, but he could be used as proof of Cersei’s incest, and while it would mean Tommen isn’t King, so Margaery isn’t Queen, LF can maybe propose Margaery marry Gendry, since he would be a Baratheon heir. I mean, hell, she’s already been married to Renly, Joffrey, and Tommen, so what’s yet another King?
Wimsey: The problem with Gendry is, what good is he (or information about him) to Olenna? Really, the only person who has any particular use for Gendry at this point is Stannis!
That’s why I don’t think Gendry is the “handsome boy.” I do love the idea of Baelish *having* Gendry, but I really don’t think he would tell Olenna about it; that’s a horrible time/place to play that card.
la LA LAAAAAAAA can’t hear you! ;O) I am in denial until it happens and will be afterwards too. We formed a Worried About Shireen Support Group in another thread and are using the recovering alcoholics’ one step at a time approach; she got through ep 7 ok so is fine until next week. A lot of people seem to think Mel is going back to Castle Black
If this battle with the Boltons takes place this series she presumably wouldn’t go back there for ages, if at all, so I’m hoping the shot of Selyse in the trailer is because Stannis refuses to burn Shireen and Mel leaves them because of it.
Please no-one reading this try and correct me with facts and that sort of thing at this point, thank you, let me cling to my dream for another week *lower lip wobbling, starts hyperventilating, buries face in nearest cat to disguise sobs* ;O)
Anyway….it would have been nice to have a bit more dialogue with Jaime and Myrcella. It seemed a little ‘thrown in there’. However it was nice to have so many storylines involved in one episode! 🙂
-Sansa is a fighter and not is not tiring
-Stannis took Shireen because he did not want her to stay at the wall surrounded by criminal. This was adressed couple episodes back if you payed attention.
-Brienne is true soldier and if you know anything about military tactics is that you don’t abandon your post. It can take weeks gathering intel and she has assets if you weren’t paying attention correctly, what else is brienne gonna do, Paint her nails?
-Danny is not happy about the fighting pits obviously but she’s willing to go full measure to gain the trust of the people as what a leader should do.
-Cercei truly cares about her children! That is her redeeming quality. Oh and her cheekbones.
– Jamie went down south because he cares and loves Cercei and he would do what it takes to make things right. You want Riverlands lol?
-Gilly is a wildling and has gone through worse with her father don’t you forget. Gilly in real life would punch you in the face for stupid questions.
As far as sex… Well anyone that sticks up bravely for their significant other would be turned on.
I just shut down your whole list of none sense complaints. Do you even watch the show or understand these characters?!?
Lulu’s Mum,
She will be okay. Shireen will be Queen in the end. There’s no one better destined to rule than Shireen Baratheon
Wimsey,
Dinosaurs are a welcome addition to most things, I feel, as long as health and safety guidelines are followed where appropriate. Can you imagine the insurance costs? On a fantastical (as in amazing not necessarily made up) creatures theme I mentioned somewhere else I’ve seen an article on crappy films in the Cannes film festival and one of them has flying zombie nazi sharks. I think it’s a fairly safe bet that of all the theories surrounding the books and tv show, they haven’t featured highly in the speculation. If Stannis allows Shireen to burn I don’t care anymore and hope a plague of FZNS’s wipe out Westeros/Essos and anywhere else-os we haven’t yet seen and almost everyone in them ;O)
I like your sticking to science even though they don’t exist approach to dragons. I did wonder about them being locked in a dark and presumably quite cold dungeon if they are cold blooded, but maybe the whatever it is that lets them breath fire also keeps them warm?
Wait, I’m confused: what evidence does Gendry offer of Cersei’s relationship with Jaime that people would buy? It seems that their world has already rejected the “look, all of Robert’s kids have black hair!” argument. (Maester Mendel has yet to appear in this world, it seems.) Besides, LF likely knows full well that Lancel has just as damning evidence to be used against Cersei.
Also, keep in mind that Olenna doesn’t want all of this evidence getting out. Her granddaughter’s claim to power comes from marrying Robert Baratheon’s son.
Braincandy,
How does Littlefinger know Ned’s secret about Jon?
Were you keeping record on the books too? Because if you were you would know GRRM went less chapters with her at this point in the book series.
Tell me I’m lying… I dare you!
One thing that this dialogue did offer: once again, someone (Myrcella) refers to the time elapsed as “years.” A lot of people trying to enforce the book’s timeline keep saying that people are rounding up or just using expressions: but it happens over and over. A lot more time has elapsed on the show than on TV.
On a rewatch this scene made a lot more sense tome. Myrcella is the teen who the distanced parent does not have a clue about, who is all, I love him, I am gonna marry him and no one can tell me no. It leaves Jaime completely flabbergasted, which I think was the point of it all. It is very much mid-teen stromp meets completely clueless parent. It was actually rather well-done. The fact is, there can be no meaningful dialogue between these two strangers. Myrcella is so Dornish now. 😉
Even if LF does know, then what good is this information to Olenna.
Olenna: “High Sparrow, here’s the truth: Ned Stark isn’t Jon Snow’s father.”
High Sparrow: “Well, that’s a shocker: I’d been betting on Ashara Dayne. OK, what do I owe you?”
Olenna: “Free my grandchildren.”
High Sparrow: “No, only one: remember, I was right about Hermione Granger being in love with Ron Weasley, not Harry Potter.”
Olenna: *shakes head* “ah, for such a smart young lady, she certainly had stupid taste in men. OK, just give me…. the granddaughter. But you keep Cersei in chains because I was right about who Starbuck was.”
High Sparrow: “ugh, that’s how I hurt my knee….”
Wimsey,
I definitely noticed that…I swear there’s a tardis floating about somewhere, and not just for Lord Baelish….Time Lord Baelish.
Congratulations to Samwell Tarly as he joins a renowned list of husky lovers including Homer Simpson, Peter Griffin, Barry White and Pavorotti!
In all seriousness I think the scene with the nightswatch rapists was unnecessary and they should of had Ghost at least savage one of them. I don’t think they needed the love scene and it would have been better if Gilly just lay beside Sam like Missandei did with Greyworm; showing that there is more to love than sexual intimacy. I agree with other commentators in the open chat discussion that sex would be the last thing on her mind after being harassed.
Is Dany going to get the Essos version of restraining order for Jorah or is Daario going to enter Jerry Springer style to tell him “she’s with me now, she don’t need your lying ass anymore”.
I thought the sand snakes scene was a slight improvement but added nothing to the storyline especially as every scene should have real value at this stage of the season. I also found the nudity in the scene to be completely gratuitous and unnecessary although from a male perspective the actresses body was stunning (not what I would have expected)
Such scenes to pad out the characters were needed in the earlier episodes.
The kings landing stuff just is not clicking for me this season and I have been disappointed with some of the dialogue. Just compere Olenna’s dialogue with that of season three and the difference is clear to see. I suppose there was always going to be issues without esteemed characters such as Tywin, Varys and Tyrion.
Kay,
Dorne appears to be making Jaime leak a few more brain cells.
Yara has been confirmed for 5th season. Not talking about IMDB of course, she’s been confirmed on casting website 2 weeks ago. So, where is she? Will we see her only in final episode?
red viper,
The same way most viewers figured it. He followed the clues.
Note the way he smiled a knowing smile when Sansa and he were talking in the crypts about L & R. He knows Lyanna was not raped and that she is Neds sister and that Ned is too honorable to have cheated on Cat.
Tormund’s Woman,
I know nothing of this Dinosaur Train, let me consult You Tube…..OH.MY.GAWD. It’s awesome! I’m afraid the rest of series 5 will have to wait until I’m fully caught up with this!
Even when we had the books as more of a certain guide it was almost impossible to call the minor details, so now D&D are doing more of their own thing than ever before I reckon we should high five each other if anyone gets anything remotely right. I mean anyone in the entire fandom, not trying to claim any credit for myself here. I believe the scientific term for anything I inadvertently guessed correctly is “absolute and total fluke” ;O)
There’s is soooooo much that could potentially happen in the next 3 episodes my brain would explode trying to process even half of it. Of course that won’t stop me looking at any pictures they release ahead of each episode and thinking I wonder what/who that is. It’s part of the enjoyment. And we may finally get to see Sansa do something with the pointy bit of her necklace apart from nervously fiddling with it, so if nothing else that will be one mystery solved. I’m still hoping it involves a delicate part of Ramsay’s anatomy and about 147 stabs :O)
Wimsey,
I don’t recall anyone rejecting the” look, Robert’s kids have black hair” argument, because it wasn’t presented to anyone for them to reject it. Varys knew, LF knew, and Cersei knew, but Ned was killed before he could go public with it. Sure, there is the letter he sent Stannis and Stannis’ letter sent throughout the kingdom, but Stannis’ letters, although they may have planted some seeds in the minds of some people, could also be viewed as just Stannis saying whatever he thinks will get him put on the Iron Throne. LF may have damning evidence against Cersei for other things, but is there such a thing as too much damning evidence? Gendry can be used to buoy the claim Cersei’s children are bastards born of incest. Finally, it has been said over and over the walls have ears, so who know who overheard what.
I prefaced my post last night by saying the idea was “out there,” and stemmed in part from my hope of seeing him, again, but I don’t think it entirely out of the realm of possibility. It’s fine if you do.
Tyrion and Dany meet, whereas in the books it’s teased for hundreds of pages, but never actually happens.
Instead there’s endless chapters about diarrheas in army camps, or Dany eating grass and having a diarrhea.
THAT is what the show is missing! Loose stool! Buckets and buckets of loose stool! Heck, Drogon probably should have it, too! Oh, the drama! The effects! The putting-me-off-of-eating-for-a-month!
(“How do I know that she’s queen?” “She’s the only one not covered in shit.”)
Well, I wouldn’t go so far as to say LF knows: rather, he probably has heard both sides of the story. Whether that lets him work out who Jon is is a completely separate issue: and as Daynites still might tell you, it has no bearing on Ashara’s seduction of Ned.
*bows* Thank you Your Grace. I hope you can see that victory at all costs is not a price worth paying. You are a man of principle and it takes a very strong person to see that sometimes they may have to change course because it is the right thing to do for everyone, not just themselves. Ser Davos may not have a formal education but he is a very wise man who has your best interests at heart and has risked his own life more than once to do the right thing. Mel may be sexy and powerful but she only cares about you because she thinks you are the Lord’s chosen one. One of them would abandon you in a second if it suited them, the other will be loyal until the end. Just think to yourself, “what would Davos do?” *backs out while still bowing* ;O)
I’m really enjoying the northern scenes in particular but the lack of northern lords seems to be a big hole. When Sansa refers to her family still having friends in the north all we’ve seen is Brienne, Pod, the inn keep and the poor old lady. We’ve heard from Ramsay of the defiance of the Cerwyns. We really need to see some northern lords.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Even accepting that possibility, Olenna does not want Tommen’s legitimacy being questioned. She wants Cersei taken down without that bit of collateral damage and/or Margaery & Loras freed. So, would she have used the information that LF gave her if that is what it was?
At any rate, if nothing else, then basic story-telling structure is important here. Stories shouldn’t be arbitrary: there should be cause and effect. If Lancel is not the effect of Littlefinger’s offer of information, then Lancel’s testimony is arbitrary: and B&W have never been arbitrary in their plottings; things always stem from what the characters decide to do.
Nope, nope, nope! 🙂
Damn, it’s been that long? 😉
Whence comes these lords? From what we saw, they were largely wiped out at the Red Wedding. Taking time out to add new ones would have taken up precious time, and this season has been pretty crowded as it is. The show would be better keeping this down to the three main characters: Sansa, Theon & Brienne. Ultimately, the resolution should come from the three of them collectively elevating themselves.
Moving closer. Seemed like she was practically outside the gates.
Dorne is having that affect on all of us.
Rygritte,
*looks around with glazed eyes and slack jaw*…Huh? Who said that?
Without taking over this thread, [everyone else: too late!] if anyone cares what I think when I am trying to be sensible and scientifically analyse (otherwise known as floundering about and totally guessing) what the hell is going on: I’m sure others have said this but what if the handsome young man LF was referring to is the same person in both instances? I can’t remember the exact wording, did he say another man or just I gave Cersei a man and have one for you, which you’d probably assume is two different people but might not be?
If he definitely said another man then disregard this, but if not: Olyvar could have been the gift to Cersei against the Tyrells. Once Cersei is in trouble, if Olyvar recants his testimony that gets both Loras and Margery off the hook. Cersei is unaffected because she’s in trouble for something else. Olyvar could make this worse for her by saying Cersei made him lie in order to frame Loras for being fabulous and Margery too as she would naturally defend her brother against Olyvar’s ‘lies’. So it’s a one person double whammy. Olyvar gets LF in Cersei’s good books by apparently dumping the Tyrells in it, then cements the Tyrells to LF’s side by recanting and freeing them AND – if they go that route – gets Cersei in even more trouble with the Faith and destroys any last vestiges of an alliance between what’s left of the Lannisters and Tyrells. LF can tell Cersei Olyvar’s recanting was entirely due to the Tyrells and nothing to do with him, so he’s off the hook with her there. Win-win-win for LF who is the sneakiest most double-triple-quadruple-crossing person in the whole thing. The only thing we really know to be true about LF is that we can’t trust him at all or ever take anything he says at face value. Chaos is a laddaaah and he climbs it better than anyone else.
Or, you know, it could all be something else entirely. Shireen’s still alive, Sansa is going to go completely berserk and make the Mountain look like Mary Poppins and flying zombie nazi sharks ;O)
Wimsey,
By necessity, I think. The kids are clearly several years older. To claim that Arya, Sansa and Bran are only like a year or so older than in the first episode would be laughable. Even two would stretch credulity. The absolute minimum timeline they can possibly get away with in terms of believable ages for the actors is three years from the start, and it seems like they’re hedging a bit closer to a real-time timeline, even though I’m not quite sure enough has really happened to fill 4-5 years worth of time.
Still, it seems to be working out more or less the way Martin originally wanted in terms of character maturity when he had to cut out the 5 year gap. In that respect, the timeline of the show actually makes more sense (character-development-wise) than the book one. Everything else makes a bit less sense than the already suspect book timeline, though.
Fancy word for a sellsword: a regretful Theon/Reek is going to light a candle in the tower
Nope, Sansa will threaten Reek with violence to help her escape. He will suggest meeting him in the crypts. She will pick the lock. They will try to flee to the Wall or to Stannis.
Someone else said “promise me” in the episode. (Gilly?) Both times it was spoken, I thought of Lyanna and felt it was foreshadowing a flashback with Lyan & Ned.
Another good, solid episode!
First, phew… for Bronn! I thought that surely he was a goner (and please don’t call me Shirley). But I figured that if he was going to die in a damp, musty Dornish cell, he might as well go out singing a rueful tune, gazing at the glorious form of one of the Sand Snakes… the fantabulous Tyene Sand aka Rosabell Laurent Sellers… but Dornish girls, true to form, are really weird and crazy… in a good way. Hopefully Bronn ends up having a much better future, than the one with Lolys…he he!
Uhhhh, and what we’ve been teased with in the novels, and eventually got a “close-but-no shave” type of deal, last nigh finally came to be as two of my favourite characters finally met, courtesy of grey-scaled Jorah Mormont…Dany and Tyrion finally together! Let’s hope it is the beginning of a long and beautiful friendship… or not!
Speaking of favourite characters, Jon is finally on his way beyond the Wall (hmm with a sack full of dragon glass), leading the first mission as Lord Commander, while the sharks are out in the water back at Castle Black. Sam and Gilly finally ended up together… and Maester Aemon left that world as his mortal coil expired, for once, in bed and of old age… not dying some painful, horrific death! Again no issues with Gilly’s scene and those two Night Watchmen trying to get to her… I think the scene lent itself to the episode and the unfolding of what followed. I have to say that after all these years, the scenes in the North are still my favourite!
All the wailing and gnashing of teeth I see it is yet another of those anaemic, fake, made-up attempts to create controversy where there is none.
I liked to see Sam’s, albeit inefficient attempt to protect her, you gotta give him the fact that he has a big heart! Besides we got to see Ghost!!! And he is a big mother!
Plus poor Santa, brave Stannis… and Melisandre being blocked with a clear no (for now). Loved seeing her face, which looked quite surprised and uncertain, if even for a blink…
The Queen of Thorns aka Lady Olena Tyrell aka Dame Dianna Riggs, has been always an acting tour de force on the show and this episode highlighted that fact quite clearly once again. Loved, loved her interactions with all the various characters, especially Littlefinger…whose face dropped, again momentarily but oh soo satisfying, when he realized that he couldn’t fuck around with her… But the piece de resistance was the scene with the High Sparrow! Seeing two veteran actors like Jonathan Price and Dianna Riggs playing off of each other so marvellously, was just a pure joy to watch!
Ah yes, of course Cersei! She finally got some of the just deserts she had coming for soo many seasons! I have waited for a while for Tyrion’s “You are not half as smart as you think you are…” line to come to fruition! That scene underscores also how good Lena Headey is and what she has brought to the show over all the seasons! She really is an underrated actress! I loved how she switches between her genuine maternal love and care for her children, as evidenced from what she tells Tomen, and the arrogant, cruel and callous demeanour she has vis-à-vis Margery… and again when she realizes her jig is up and is thrown into the cell we have all wanted to see her in, for a long, long time!
All in all, a good episode in what has been so far a great Season Five. I think that after having seen many, many TV series in my life, the way all the folks involved bring this show to life is something to behold. And D&D, Brian Cogman and the rest, are really doing a great job at interweaving the storylines of “A Song Of Ice And Fire” with their own take and interpretation on “Game Of Thrones”. While not perfect, it is the best representation and adaptation we could have ever gotten for such a rich and complex material as George RR Martin’s epic novels!
Wimsey,
The only reason Olenna would care about Tommen is because he’s King. As long as there’s another King for Margaery to marry, and remember she’s already married 3, I don’t think Olenna cares what happens to Tommen. So, yes, I think Olenna would have absolutely used that information. Anyway, again, Gendry is just one possibility. You’ve already made it very clear you disagree, but I’m not going to eliminate the possibility from my mind.
As for Lancel’s testimony being arbitrary if it isn’t done in the context you believe, I’m not sure how you could say that. Cersei slept with Lancel, her first cousin, while married to Robert, making Lancel both an adulterer and one who engages in incest. She then manipulated him into helping to orchestrate the King’s death. Without Robert’s death, there would have been no war of 5 Kings, thus no Blackwater, thus Lancel would not have been so gravely injured. Without the grave injury and all the weight on his conscious, would he have had any reason to go all Faith of the 7 Fundamentalist? Without going Faith of the 7 Fundamentalist, would he have had a reason to confess? That’s a lot of causes and effects.
Yung Wolf,
You know that for something to be funny it has to have a grain of truth right? Gilly asked Sam at least twice if he was ok with what was happening and he consented clearly at all times. Plus you are not fooling anyone. You are not joking at all, you just want to undermine and ridicule people’s concern for the rape scenes in the show. Go away already, you are always aggressive and are not adding anything to the conversation.
Every scene in KL was brilliant, and the High Sparrow keeps stealing the show, literally and metaphorically.
My new wish is for Pryce and Rigg to spar verbally forever…perhaps reading transcripts of the Lincoln/Douglass debates…or even the Reagan/Carter debates!
Was glad to see the poison-anidote-Tyrene-Bronn-seduction scene went more or less as expected and it was good to finally see something significant from the sand snakes (I was going to make a nudity joke, but they’ve all been made already). It was a little cheesy, but the bar had been set low and this is the best Dorne scene yet. Don’t know if it will be enough to salvage that storyline. I want Dorne to be good and so far the way they decided to write it in has been ham-handed at best. Now that there is a break in the “action”, I still have hope for the future. And Areo Hotah continues to impress.
Largest disappointment was Mereen. Was hoping for Tyrion’s slaveblock speech. “I’ll fuck your wife and make her cry…or your enemy’s wife, if you prefer. I’m murder with a crossbow…“, and instead we got him beating his captor with his chains? And then he was the only slave who was chained up and couldn’t run out to watch Jorah? And those same chains could be smashed with a sword…that writing was as bad as anything Dorne-related from episodes 4 and 6. But my biggest gripe was that Tyrion and Dany met so soon…I knew it was going to happen this season, but one of the best/worst parts of reading DWD was being teased for the meetup that still hasn’t occurred in the books, and sharing that frustration with the unsullied is would almost be par with sharing the shock of the RW. I’d see it happening in ep 9 or 10, but not so soon. I did like Jorah just knocking out foes rather than slaying them (maybe to impress Dany? obviously it didn’t work)
Sansa seems to be getting a little of the Lady Dustin treatment. (Un)Fortunately for her, Ramsay is not bored with her yet. And the Theon stairclimb fakeout was brilliant editing.
I had hope that Brienne following Sansa down the rabbit hole early in the season would be good for both characters and storylines, but I’d rather watch her wander the Riverlands forever with the Mad Mouse and Sir Iffifer the Pennyless and other forgettable characters than just stare at Winterfell.
Emotional peak was Measter Aemon’s funeral. Well done. Still unsure about the Sam/Gilly consummation happening so early, but it wasn’t as out-of-place as I feared, even if they had to use rape/attempted rape as a plot point again.
Two Balon Greyjoy mentions! Hopefully that means iron islands stuff will happen this season or next…and not just off screen.
Loved the Stormcrow menation, too. All the debate about what that marker was on the map, and it was removed as soon as possible. (Crossing fingers for Brown Ben Plumm in S6) And if Davos heads to White Harbor before the end of the season with Shireen in tow I’ll be happy.
Homplomplom,
Was Tyrion meeting Dany a memorable scene? It was pretty ‘meh’ “I am Tyrion Lannister” Yes, riveting dialog. Seared into our collective memories, it will be talked about for years to come.
& saying the book is “endless chapters of diarrhea in army camps” is obvious hyperbole & just not true. May I recommend the Derek Zoolander Center for Kids who cant’r Read Good.
Show purists are become worse than book purists. I am neither. I want quality.
There are numerous themes in the source material the show could explore-camp life is an interesting example. Instead they fall back on and take up precious screen time w/ stuff like: nameless Nightswatchmen threaten rape Gilly. Ugh, been there done that, e.g. Crasters Keep “fuck em till they’re dead!”
Tyene’s tits were great though. It’s so hard to find pictures of tits. Does anyone know if there’s somewhere online that shows tits? & Obara is such an awesome actress. I loved that part where she told her sisters she’s known her whole life her backstory. & the plan by the Sandsnakes as well as Jaime&Bronn to waltz into the Dornish capitol in broad daylight (&at exactly the same time) to kidnap the princess was stellar! & that incoherent fight scene was so incoherent!
^sarcasm paragraph
I’ll never defend dumb stuff. The scripts and plotting this season have been atrocious.
Braincandy,
Yet somehow the overt sadism of Ramsay Bolton is seemingly the ONE THING Littlefinger doesn’t know about. Leaves his most prized possession with him. Makes perfect sense. There’s no such things as “in character” anymore b/c the show writers have lost all control of characterization and purpose driven plot in favor of schlock.
Definitely a bust-out performance.
Their names were Derek and Brant. Sam mentioned them. Better now?
Now I’m confused. If that was sarcasm, does that mean you did like the Water Gardens fight after all?
Lulu’s Mum,
I believe that pointy stick from the end of the long necklace is long gone, Lulu’s Mom 🙁 You saw how he keeps Sansa. Alone, locked in her cell, and most likely dressed only in her shift. Food is brought to her and I have no doubt she’s not allowed to have stabby things around. I think that Bastard truly thinks he’s got it all covered.
HOWEVER… she did pick up that corkscrew when Ramsay decided to summon her just to show Sansa who’s boss over the Winterfell! So a little “yay” for Sansa! I hope it comes in handy and she’s good at picking locks.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
– Jon beheading Janos was one of the better scenes of the season. His election was rather matter of fact–not memorable, not rousing. His talk w/ Tormun was memorable only for it’s homoeroticism, not its implications.
– The Dany cosplay prostitute being the most memorable thing about the kidnapping = fail. The stonemen scene was one of the better ones this season.
– Quick, site a line of dialog from the Tyrion meeting Dany scene in a scrubby outskirts fighting pit. It should be significant. It didn’t feel like any big deal.
– Quick, site dialog or describe this memorable scene of Cersie arming the faith. Oh wait, it was a boring sitting & talking in the ‘towerofthehand’ room. Forgettable.
– Loras and Margaery’s arrest was lame. Two Kingsgaurd (they are all nameless behind masks) w/ all the royal family and these dorks in robes w/ clubs. Site some dialog from this memorable scene.
Kingsmoot would be more than great. Some Valyrian roads would be great. Cyvass would be great. Giant turtles would be great. Fierce Loras getting face melted instead of being silly gay stereotype would be great. The fire temple in Volantis would be great. Oldtown would be great (Sam, Gilly, & Aemon should have left for there as soon as Jon was elected). Return of Illyrio would be great. Golden company would be great. JonCon/Faegon, a tyroshi hair dye would be great. Jorah getting face tat would be great. etc etc etc
I disagree. Both the books and show are simply vague and inconsistent about time. Sometimes it seems to be about a year per season or even more in the case of child actors aging up, but then you have things like the Hound and Arya taking an entire season (S3E9 to S4E9) to take a walk that would require about a month.
No one can be trying to enforce the “book’s timeline” because no one is really clear on what that was, either. GRRM has always been vague about time, distances, and populations, and the show has matched him in that.
Varys, Cersei,
So my understanding is that there were two gifts, one for the QoT and one for Cersei, and both of these gifts were handsome young men. I suppose the phrasing leaves open the possibility that they both received the same handsome young man, but I think that “the same kind” implies there were two handsome young men.
Lancel was obviously not placed in the Faith Militant by LF, but I strongly believe that LF has very recently convinced Lancel to confess to his part in the assassination of King Robert and name the person who convinced him to poison Robert’s wine.
Here, the High Sparrow says that Lancel’s confession has come in pieces, “piece by piece,” and he implies that Lancel has only “now” been made so light that he’ll float. So to me this nods to the fact that the big reveal happened only recently, well after Lancel joined the Faith Militant.
And so that’s LF’s gift to the QoT. His gift to Cersei is suspected to be Olyvar and Olyvar’s testimony at the pre-trial hearing regarding his affair with Loras and Margaery’s knowledge of that affair. And that makes the most sense, but there is still room for interpretation on which handsome man he meant here.
Bad, definitely bad.
Dem webbed toes.
This is why Selyse faceplants in the snow. She loves Mel more than Stannis and Shireen combined because Mel slipped her that love potion.
Perhaps if I am watching Xena Warrior Princess, simple plots are good. But the reason ASOIAF is beloved by so many is that is ISN’T simple, and any “adaptation” of it that is simple is not keeping to the spirit of the books.
Book Cersei armed the faith in in return for the blessing of Tommen’s claim and a forgiveness of the Crown’s debt to the faith, and then afterwards engaged in a complex plot that involved framing Margaery for a much more serious crime than lying and as side bonus involved an assassination attempt on Jon Snow. Her downfall came when the Faith unexpectedly tortured the truth out of one of her flunkies.
TV Cersei armed the faith for nothing more than petty cat-fight points despite the very obvious fact that her co-conspirator in multiple crimes was among their members. Literally every unsullied in the universe immediately said “Well, THAT was dumb. She’s going to get burned.”
If you think the second is better than the first, we have a completely different perspective on quality. “Stories” where supposedly clever people make idiotic mistakes are annoying as hell, honestly.
Three betrayals: One for blood, one for gold and one for love
Wimsey
There’s no sense of major, growing opposition to the Boltons in the north, just small hints. No real northern input into the Stannis v Bolton showdown. Yet Sansa has been presented as the ‘key to the north’. She’s meant to solidify the Boltons’ hold on the north. The north part of the equation is largely silent and missing – at least so far.
Well, what would a sarcastic-rhetoric genious such as your good self, who knows fancy terms like hyperbole and comes up with ones of breathtaking imagination such as comparing the show to 55 mins of close-ups on poo, have had Tyrion say to Dany?
I think Tyrion’s arc has been handled very well. It has been entertaining, while moving forward and giving an impression of distance, and relied on what the show often does best, pairing T. first with Varys and later with Jorah.
Fortunately, it’s not needed as there’s so much repetition.
Where do whores go? Where do whores go? Where do whores go? Where do whores go? Where do whores go? Where do whores go? My name is Reek, it rhymes with deep, my name is Reek, it rhymes with sleek, my name is Reek, it rhymes with sleep, my name is Reek, it rhymes with a jeep, etc.
Tormund’s Woman,
Flying zombie nazi sharks, that’s going to be my fall back for just about everything now. Not just GoT-related but for life in general! ;O) I like to think that despite the fact they are zombies, nazis and sharks, they are on the side of good – people, er sharks, can change – and will be Sansa’s secret weapon/saviours. They can fly so don’t have to break into Winterfell. The mere sight of them would stop anyone in their tracks long enough for them (the person watching) to be taken down by one of the good guys on the ground. The worse it gets for Sansa the more I want her to extract a terrible revenge on those who deserve it, involving real suffering on their part. Normally I think you have no moral high ground if you do the same bad thing to someone they have done to you and would argue strongly against it, but this programme is turning me into a real eye for an eye advocate :O( I need to go watch Dinosaur Train and calm down! *reminds self it’s not real* ;O)
Euron’s Blue Lips,
Nobody wants to see those dirty feet Greyjoys. We tolerate Theon because he was part of the Stark family but if you’re waiting for those brainless pirates to contribute to the story because they are “important” in the book/show well…. I have a bridge in San Francisco to sell you.
Lulu’s Mum,
I hate to break it to you but I have already passed the point where I say: “I hope someone else rids her of Ramsay because I don’t want Sansa to have to deal with murdering someone. Enough has happened to that poor soul.” I did say it in two threads to my recollection.
But after Ramsay kissed her while she watched the old lady’s hanging flayed body and told her to take better care of her candles because the nights just got a lot longer… (with that creepy, nasty, sexual assault following implying voice), I just want anyone to kill the bastard.
It’s fiction. I’m ok with anyone killing him. I’m past moral highground now. Did you see the marks on Sansa? F-Ramsay Snow. /rant over
Nobodies going to read this, but alas: Was Gilly’s attempted rape an attempt to further Sam’s character development? That’s exploitive! Where’s the outrage?
Ser Oromis Locke,
It’s simple really. We all learned in mathematics that two minuses make a plus. Therefore, the instances of sexual violence in the last two episodes morphed into something great and positive, namely Fat Pink Mast. See? Nothing to be outraged about.
Though, I have to criticise the show for one really big blunder, the inexplicable lack of Myrish Swamp. Why wasn’t it there?
Eden,
I love Dany, and I think her heart is mostly in the right place. Without R+L = J, she has the strongest claim to the throne, and she has dragons. She clearly has a large role to play in the game of thrones.
At one point, GRRM talked about why he put in the level of detail that he did. He said that it was one thing to write, “and they lived happily ever after,” but how do we know? How do we know that our heroes and conquerors will make great rulers? It’s a completely different talent and a very tricky thing to do well. I thought he was talking particularly about Robert Baratheon at the time, but my current view is that he also meant Khaleesi. Despite her good intentions, I see mistakes in many of her decisions, including the smarmy, pervy Daario.
True. However, this story is about individuals, not groups of peoples. What is important are the three protagonists and what they choose to do in a “kill the boy and let the man be born” sort of way.
Sansa killing Ramsay would hardly qualify as murder. It would be “execution”: and she who passes judgement should carry out the sentence. After all, she is the true Lady of Winterfell, and the Boltons are guilty of treason to her family.
Ser Oromis Locke,
LOL firestarter!
Honestly though, do really think that was character development for Sam?! The one who killed a Thenn and a WW?! The one who stood his ground when wildlings attacked last season? Same guy who does everything, every chance he gets to help and care for Gilly?! What he did was EXACTLY what his already built up character was supposed to do. Nothing to develop at this guy, really. It’s like the only one in the whole of the series with actual balls when the occasion calls for it. It called for it.
I think the attempted rape was more an emphasis on Ser Aliser’s words. The unfortunate unattainable position of having on woman at CB. It probably shows more about Gilly who was ready to tear a guy to pieces for punching Sam in the face while afterwards preaching him that he should NEVER interfere if he sees a thing like that, or about how they really need to move south.
Wimsey,
HAH! Moral high ground regained. She will actually deliver justice as the Lady of the Winterfell. We can always count you to put us back “in-universe” mode. I would have said murder him in his sleep with that corkscrew. But now I feel much better. I hope she sees it that way too.
Actually, they skipped Balon when Mel brought up the leeches. I’m calling retcon unless we see Gemma this season in 8, 9 or 10.
Yeah, you can’t have a threat (by Thorne) and then not show the implications of that threatening scenario. Oh wait, that’s exactly what happened with Ramsay/Sansa, yet people got angry about that regardless of the set-up.
I do think it’s more about Sam not having any allies at CB anymore, thus him standing alone when he could use back-up is focusing on him as a character -not necessarily in the sense that we need affirmation of his bravery”- but as showing the development of his position in CB, instead of the focus being that Gilly was about to get raped having any significance to her character arc. Unless you look at them as an undistinguishable pairing where one can’t exist in development outside the other.
The passage of time on the show is really hard to pin down, mostly because accurately showing in on screen, would require a lot of filler scenes. I think many episodes actually span a matter of weeks, but to the viewers, feels like a couple days.
My guess, is around two or three months have passed in GoT’s time, between episode 1, and 7.
Things that come to mind ‘in-show’ that help find a ballpark guess as to how long ago season 1 was:
Myrcella, stated that she’s been in Dorne for “years”. Just my opinion, but that struck me as meaning more than two.
Very early in season 3, Jamie said he’s been captive for a year, implying that season 2 alone spanned an entire year.
In the first episode of season 1, Cersei said it took them a month to reach WF from KL. That implies that both episodes 1 and 3 (?), of season 1, took a month. I’m sure a smaller group, like LF’s took less time, but probably by only a week.
One thing that makes no sense- The time between the finale of season 4 and the premier of 5, could not have been more than a week, since they couldn’t wait much longer than that before Tywin’s funeral. Yet, the dragons became massively larger in that time. I dunno, maybe dragons have weird growth spurts when nobody is looking at them.
Tormund’s Woman,
It’s ok we all deal with these things in different ways, but we must be strong for Sansa’s sake. Take comfort from your giant ginger prince, he is now free of his chains. Although let’s face it this is GoT so if he’s an important character he’ll probably be in a frying pan into a fire scenario,
I hope the Shireen *whispers* possible burning *whispers* is resolved next week one way or the other so I have fewer (Stannis would be proud) people to worry about! FZNS for the win! ;O)
Joshua Atreides,
It staggers me how good the cast is. Literally the best on TV. I have to agree on your choices for best in this episode. Lena and Sophie were insane this ep.
In short, the best of the season so far. So much to take in. The staredowns, Aemon, Egg, Sam/Gilly getting nasty, Sansa going from rescue me, to bitch mode with Ramsay to just plain defeated in 3 minutes – I knew it would be the old lady. Theon cowering. Ghost being epic. High Sparrow vs Queen of Thorns – legendary! Cersei vs Maergary exactly how I envisioned it, loved the moment that Cersei broke through her facade.
Going to single out the Sandsnakes scene cos they’ve got a lot of shit. But Tyene killed it, matching her book counterpart to a tea! Sure the other two haven’t been developed yet, but the director did a stunning job in that scene. It just looked visually striking.
Greg,
Indeed.
People on here should try leaving their house and actually seeing the outside of their front door for once — they wouldn’t last long.
Euron’s Blue Lips,
Take this guy, for example. Claims that someone else is trying hard but uses terms like “stahp” and “lolz,”, immediately outing himself as an insufferable nerd that can’t be taken seriously from the jump.
Ser Oromis Locke,
Funny you mention that! In my opinion, I think they are at this point a pair. They have a bond, they grew together as characters since Carster’s. She felt secure next to him everywhere he went. He felt responsible too when he left her in Mole’s Town. They share a responsibility for the little boy too. What I’m very inarticulately trying to say is that somehow this trio has become a functioning unit while each held to their own personality.
This action literally served to show both of them that the status quo has changed at CB. They really need to move south. Aemon said it best to Gillyflower, but I doubt they believed it as an immediate urgency.
I understand you think the same goes for Sansa/Ramsay/Theon situation, but I have a different beef with that whole storyline of Petyr/Sansa coming to Winterfell, so I can’t really offer you the counter argument you probably expect.
However, I am extremely curious how that whole forcing together will resolve itself in the show. Acting by the way is off the charts for Alfie, Iwan and Sophie. I never thought they will pull it off without Michael and Aidan there. But OMG what a tremendous job they are doing.
Lulu’s Mum,
I think Littlefinger will have Olyvar recant his testimony, but since that’d lead to incarceration for Olyvar, Littlefinger would be best to dispose of him. Olyvar knows too much about Littlefinger’s operations (from Littlefinger’s perspective, knowing very little could still be too much) and the trial would suffer without him on the stand. They could disregard his claims if he’s dead and gone (and maybe “reported” to have fled.)
hexonx,
Don’t think Mel named him.
One drop on your skin
Lighting and make-up work miracles.
Notice no-one is complaining about Sam and Gilly’s attire. Are people really so shallow? We never see anything other than perfect bodies in a positive light-no wonder people are looks-obsessed these days. The message is you must cover up and hide if your body isn’t perfect.
And, being a mother of a 17-year-old and a 12-year-old (who is curvier than her elder sister) this drooling over a girl who’s just barely 18 feels slightly creepy to me. It confirms my suspicion that men really do lust after extremely young women. A slight droop of the breast and she’s past it. Shudder!
Seeing as it was on top of a barrel (I think there was one atop each barrel) I assumed it to be a spigot.
Anyone else think it a possibility that Jon was dreaming and warged into Ghost?
I feel exactly the same about Shireen burning as I did about Sansa being abused by Ramsay – desperately hoping against hope that it wouldn’t happen but feeling an almost unbearably crushing horror that it most likely will. OMG this is what it means to be UnSullied and I fuckin hate it.
OMG you read the script? Where?
Ashara Dayne,
And women never lust after younger men? Honestly, from my experience, it goes both ways. I can’t tell you how many middle-aged women gawk and shamelessly flirt with me in public on a regular basis. In front of their husbands and children, even.
It’s only natural. Humans have always sought out the most genetically promising partners that they could realistically attain. Men are biologically programmed to be attracted to the most youthful, attractive, fertile women; it’s thousands and thousands of years of evolution at work. Throughout history, partner selection has always worked this way.
That doesn’t feel quite right to me though. Olyvar was a trusted and loyal employee who LF could easily influence. Lancel, however, isn’t LF’s to give, is he? He tried to intimidate LF in KL and I assumed was already either more than willing to tattle on Cersei or had already done so. Maybe it’s deliberately obscure to be revealed later exactly what’s happening similar to John Arryn’s murder. I don’t think it was any clearer in the books. How would Olenna or LF hold any influence over Lancel?
HS=HR is one of the flimsiest fan theories IMHO. Is it alt-shift-x who does short YouTube vids explaining the main theories?They’re well done.
Yung Wolf,
Middle-aged women lust after you shamelessly, in front of their husbands and children, because humans naturally seek out the most genetically promising partner?
Ok, after all your claims of your damn near magical powers of sarcasm and wit, you actually made me laugh…
(You were joking right?)
The Free Folk,
Still reading my posts, I see. Maybe if you left your house for a change and experienced real human interaction, you would get it.
You just can’t quit me, can you?
I always thought it was called ‘Looking to heaven’ i.e. ‘Heaven help me!’
But he’d risk dire consequences for killing a princess. That should be enough to stop anyone. What use is money if you’re dead?
I did.
Yung Wolf,
Your posts are hard to avoid; they are constant. You keep trying to make this dig, that other posters are house-bound nerds, but you spend more time in front of a screen apparently than anyone else. And really, after all the shit you’ve flung, you’re complaining about someone giving you some shit? Besides, I thought you hated it when someone could not take a joke…
At most, take my petty jab as an example, of what a buzzkill it is when someone halts the discussion just to have a go at another poster. That is why people here are aggressive towards you- you’re rude. Eventually they will be a prick back.
At the very least,… You can stop flattering yourself. If this site had a block option, your posts would be invisible to everyone who’s spent five minutes reading these comment sections.
The Free Folk,
My grand total of an average five posts a day, if even that? I don’t even really post on weekdays — stalk a little harder.
But totally. I’m so infuriated and salty right now. If only you could see the absolute and utter trauma that you’ve caused me. I might even develop PTSD and get my own special on NBC because of it. I’m far much more butthurt than I have clearly made you. I mean, shit, I’ve had you typing out an entire thesis about me and following me from article to article since last week.
Having people disagree with me on the internet is nothing new, and it probably won’t be the last time. You would definitely say none of this to me in reality, so surely you can understand why I find it hard to give many fucks. For someone that claims to hate my posts and doesn’t want to see them, you do dedicate a good portion of your time on here to reading them and taking the moment to reply. Seems a little illogical, no?
Ashara Dayne,
Very true.
For Bronn, I think he honestly considers Tyrion, and maybe Jamie at this point, his friend. I just wanted to highlight than Bronn is capable of some harsh shit, if the price is right. But, yeah I agree, harming Myrcella would be a bad move for him at either level.
Yung Wolf,
And yes, he went there… “If we met if real life, you’d be sorry!” The often final stage of a spiraling troll.
Whatever makes your balls feel big brother!
Heh…
The Free Folk,
Well, conversations like this make me wonder why your type always appear on the internet, but never in public.
You must be a real rarity… or not. I think my assessment was spot-on.
Yung Wolf,
Because people tend to ignore you in public. Imagine that…
Didn’t quite appreciate that there was a ‘community’ or it was supposed to be a big love-in. Sounds to me like you’ve had people disagree with you and possibly insult you. Just ignore insults, they aren’t worth bothering with. But people discuss the show to share ideas and some people will agree, some won’t, isn’t that how it ought to be? Only kids get offended by disagreement. And feminazis (of which there are too many on the internet these days, but I guess everyone is online now, it used to be just for geeks & porn).
The Free Folk,
Oh, have you been following me around in public too? Wouldn’t put it past you.
With that said, I’ve reached my post quota for the day. Be sure to remember that obsessions are unhealthy and that having courage behind a screen doesn’t make you a courageous person in reality.
But hey, fake it until you make it, right? 😉
You are just now beginning to suspect that men lust after 18 year-old women?
As a man, let me assure you, your suspicions are well-founded. 🙂
Yung Wolf,
Good night to you too. I’m done as well, since I’m sure no one is enjoying us trying to bitch-slap each other over the internet.
Apologies, to the other posters for dumbing down the conversation. I’ve had a few beers, and figured at this point, he had a little push-back coming- but doing that never really accomplishes anything.
Yeah, it’s why they left out the Greyjoy story this season. He already got her 93 ships.
Pigeon,
Bronns gonna bang tyene abd she’s gonna convince him to kill Marcella , he’s gonna agree , than areo hotah will kill him in front of Jaime , I’m
Imagining a good one on one fight between the two. Just can’t imagine where Jaime will be when this happens
In addition to what Wimsey said, Margaery is married and consummated now, at least in the show, and so she wouldn’t be free to marry Gendry unless Tommen dies. And even if Tommen dies, sometimes widows aren’t considered legitimate spouses for kings.
She didn’t burn down the tower of the hand!
Grand maester giz,
I think that has a good chance of being true. If they go with Oakheart for him, it’ll be a bit of a shame, but it’s reasonable.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
She is on her third husband but marriages are completely thrown out, especially in this world, if not consummated. And neither of the first two were. But all of Margaery’s ladies have heard plenty of tales about how this marriage was consummated.
Ginevra,
I was wondering about that, but it seems like there should be some out for a highborn lady (and not just highborn, born to one of the most powerful families in the 7 kingdoms) who was married to bastard unknowingly. You’re right, though, the fact knowledge of the consummation of the marriage was made known to many would be tough to get around.
Lovely piece among the morass of squabbles, petty insults and disjointed convos. Are you a professional writer?
Ashara Dayne,
It did occur to me, but they’ve completely ignored that aspect of Jon’s growth so far. Hard to believe they intended that without making a point of it with a corresponding scene of Jon waking up or something.
It might be worse than the Daario is Euron one. That is a classic case of negative evidence with a healthy dose of “let’s pretend all the facts contradicting it are not facts.” This one is even more absurd in that a follower of the Old Gods taking over the Church would be almost opposite the reforms that the High Sparrow. The High Sparrow is like the Catholic Church being taken over by Southern Baptists; a northerner like Howland Reed would be like the Catholic Church being taken over by New Age faux Druids.
Well, that really depends on the age of the man! I expect that a lot of the “drool” comes from late teens – early 20’s men: and that’s perfectly normal at that age. (I remember thinking that 30 year old women looked “old” then…) The actress in question probably dates men that age or older herself: and if her boyfriends aren’t drooling over her, well, why are they dating her?
Now, for older men: maybe not so much: if they are going to do gratuitous (or even non-gratuitous) nudity, then most of us would rather see Lena Headey, thanks. Besides, most “experienced” men probably find that the thrill of seeing naked women on screen diminishes rapidly….
Nicely written. Just out of curiosity, what about Tyene’s actresses body was it not what you expected? Very fit and trim with extraordinarily pert and firm bewbs? She was 18, any younger it’s doubtful you’d have seen them. As big as you can get before inevitable weight makes them drop a tad? The mind boggles as to what else you were expecting.
The other problem is, how does Gendry get legitimized?
Instead, if Tommen were revealed to not be Robert’s son, then they would find the closest true-born heir. It would be some Xth-cousin one or two times removed descended from Robert’s grandparents or even great-grandparents.
That comes up in the books a couple of times. Robb’s heir is some second cousin (assuming Arya, Bran & Rickon dead and after Sansa’s disowning). Sweet Robyn’s heir is his cousin or second cousin, etc. They would go to some Baratheon scion like that long before they would turn to someone like Gendry.
Your explanations do not make any sense. Mostly they are your personal opinions and very weakly motivated to boot. And Stannis is an awful king btw.
Sue the Fury,
I agree with you Sue with the Gilly and Sam thing, but I was thinking, maybe it is a motivation for Sam to leave CastleBlack and go study at Hardhome?
I’ve watched it twice, and keep noticing the slaver saying that Jorah fought at the “Siege of Spike”. Is that just a mistake? (Like when Renly says “Moat Caitlin” in Season 2, that always bugs me).
Lex,
All of the details in the slaver’s story are at least partially wrong. It was just the writers having a bit of fun, like him saying Jorah had a flaming sword (instead of Thoros at Pyke) and that he killed Khal Drogo (instead of Quotho). It’s like the slaver played broken telephone with Jorah’s reputation. Him saying Spike instead of Pyke was in the same vein.
Now I imagining Drogon dropping poop like a gigantic seagull in flight.
Thanks for the imagery
And getting to see Rosa with her boobs out, priceless! http://rosabellnude.com
Greatjon of Slumber,
And getting to see Rosa with her boobs out, priceless! http://rosabellnude.com
Sue the Fury,
Euron’s Blue Lips,
One needs to read the quality of your sarcasm to understand what kind of quality you are for. But please, do shine, tell us what you would have Tyrion said instead. I beg you, I so desperately need that splash of quality! And there is plenty of space here for you. Dazzle us!
And when people use the word(?) MEH that colossus of language show off…
Jared,
I couldn’t agree more with a comment about episode 7…
Well, obviously the closest true-born heir would be the younger son of Robert’s parents… a.k.a. Stannis Baratheon. It’s not the answer the Tyrells would want, but it’s really the only correct answer to the line of succession if Robert is revealed to have no true-born children.
GameofHype,
Lancel! He told the High Sparrow all about their ‘affair’. Which means she was an adulterous Queen.
Cersei’s Wine Goblet,
I thought the same…it’s not an antidote, but the poison…
Wimsey,
I think by the end of tjis season either Dario or HS could end up being one or the other . My perdiction for stannis is , they march for winterfell , along the way they run into yara greyjoy at deep wood motte , he’s gonna wanna hold garrison there for his wife and child and about 40 men of the iron islands will go with stannis , they end up making a deal with stannis that they will fight with him against the boltons in exchange that yara is recognized as the queen of the iron islands , and that they will be giving some lands in the gift – perhaps even harenhaul after stannis takes the iron throne . In the meantime He’s gonna put them alongside himself in the frontline , yara will be for this because the boltons flayed her men. They will take winterfell , but by the time they do half
Of the Bolton men are dead already from the inside out (Briene will be the ghost of winterfell ) In the back of the army Celese will get false information that stannis died in battle , ( I think Ramsey is gonna send a raven there and one to castle black , with False info or perhaps from melisandre vision in the flames ) shireen will be sacrificed . , by the time stannis gets back to his wife and melisandre he well find his daughters blackend bones on a small cross , Davos will have fled perhaps with Briene before hand , I beleive they will learn the truth about rickon and bran from
Theon , Theon will know that bran is way up north from
The weirwood and that rickon either with the mormonts or the umbers , meanwhile stannis will arrive back to deep wood motte and chop melisandres head off than sentence Celese to die . . That would be a serious wtf for book readers who know jons fate ?
Stannis has been attainted. Now, whether they would un-attaint him after it proved that his claims were true, I don’t know, but I am assuming that they would not because of his ties to R’hllor and because he did rise in open rebellion before his claims could be verified. (Also, everyone hates him!)
Which, ironically, might prove to be Cersei’s salvation. Adultery is a sin, but adultery by a Queen is treason. So, that puts the crime under secular law.
Let’s compare the evidence:
Pros:
HS is from the northern part of the realm
HS seized his position by force, not by working his way up through the church
HS fits the description of a crannogsman perfectly, and very specifically matches that of Jojen and Meera.
HS is about the right age
HS has pro-Stark tendencies
HS delays blessing Tommen
HS was reported to have been “born with filth beneath his fingernails”
HS=HR explains HR’s absence
HS=HR has significant RLJ implications
The oddity of HS torturing Kettleblack is eliminated if he is HR
The peculiar custom of High Septons dropping their original names completely can now be explained as a plot device.
Con:
Nobody in a series commonly referred to as “Game of Thrones” could be clever enough to fake religion in order to make a political move?
….
If the only argument you have against HR=HS is that HR can’t fake religion, I guess it is a done deal. You speak of “all the facts contradicting it”. What do you think they are, other than your assertion that because HR worships the Old Gods, he would be unwilling or incapable of launching the Sparrow movement within the Church of the Seven?
Perhaps you like your plots “simple”, but I love them more when the onion layers have no end in sight. I like thinking that the High Septon is more than he seems, that Teana is a double (or more) agent, that the Kettleblacks were long bought out by LF’s gold. That’s certainly far more entertaining than the idiot-Cersei and suicidal-LF we have had during S5!
Chad Brick,
I think that the fans who are into some of the more outlandish theories forget one important thing: it’s not only about clues and puzzles. It’s first and foremost about making narrative and thematic sense within the larger story of ASoIaF. Sorry to say, it doesn’t make a lick of sense that freaking Howland Reed of all people should decide to go all Nikita on us and infiltrate the Faith of Seven so he could fuck the South from inside.
R+L=J makes thematic sense and fits Martin’s worldbuilding.
HS=HR doesn’t say anything at all except as an overly clever and contrived way to propel the plot forward. It would only serve to undermine and severely cheapen the interesting and thematically relevant story of religious fundamentalism, breakdown of social order during times of crises, and the plight of the smallfolk.
Is the HS? If so, then so what? Lots of people are. Ergo, this is evidence for any northerner and no one northerner. Moreover, the fact that he is a member of the Faith and not a follower of the Old Gods is strong evidence against HR. Remember, these guys are a real danger to the Northerners: they will be much less tolerant of the Old Gods than the old Church was. Why would HR unleash that?
What “If Howland Reed, then he will have taken a Church position by force” premise can there possibly be? What little we know of the man suggests that he is not bellicose, anyway. So, this is not evidence that it is Howland Reed at all.
No he doesn’t. The only distinguishing trait is “mossy green eyes”: which he is not described as having. Yes, he is small: but, then, so are most of the commoners in that world. So, this is evidence for any small person, and not any particular person. Indeed, if Crannogmen are that distinct looking, given that nobody has noticed these features in the HS, this is evidence against HS=HR.
So are lots of people. Ergo, this is equally good evidence that he any male from HR’s generation, and thus not evidence that he is HR.
Never once does he say anything pro-Stark. To the contrary, he strongly condemns religions other than the Faith, which is a tacit condemnation of the Starks. Now, he’s not particularly pro-Lannister: but if you have not caught on that people can oppose both sides in a conflict, then you have not been paying attention! So, this is just fan-fiction, never mind lack of evidence.
Which is evidence of many possible things (e.g., the stories that he might not be Robert’s child, the HS’s clear anti-establishment views, his hope of extorting more from the Crown, etc.) and thus not remotely unique evidence that HS=HR. Indeed, HR would probably be playing much nicer with the Lannisters in order to weasel his way into their good graces rather than being so obdurate. So, this is evidence against HR=HS.
That is evidence that he is lowborn, not highborn. We know that the Crannogmen live in swamps, but we never are told that they are a dirty people. Ergo, it is evidence against HS=HR.
As do many other things, such as HR attending to his own lands because he’s Lord of the Marshes. Ergo, this is no more evidence of HS=HR than it is of any person that we have not met in the narrative.
No they do not: HR=HR has them, but they do not gain anything from HR=HS. Indeed, we would expect someone who knows R+L=J to be less anti-Targ than this. (The HS still nurses grudges about what the Targs did to the Church, after all. ) So, this is neither evidence nor a particularly useful narrative device.
How? What “If Howland Reed, then expect torture of suspects” premise is there? The Crannogmen are not known for that. However, “If religious fanatic, then expect torture of suspects” is a very sound premise. Religions have used torture to extract confessions for time immemorial.
So, this is not evidence of HS=HR, and might well be evidence against it.
Or it could be because GRRM modelled this on real religions where this is done. It is not much different from the Catholic Church, where Popes drop their names for a new one. Similarly, the Dalai Lama drops use of his name. This is just another example of GRRM using reality as a model.
So, none of the “evidence” is offers anything other than the weakest of consistency arguments: indeed, much of it is evidence against the idea. It is not even remotely parsimonious. Again, this is really bad thinking: there is nothing resembling valid logic here, and much of it is simply illogical in the true sense of the word.
Here is what the High Sparrow really is: a commoner who nurses strong grudges against the nobility for the way that they treat commoners, and who has extended that grudge to the corruption of the Church by the nobility. (This is very similar to what happened in some aspects of the Reformation.) GRRM is using the HS to give us a taste of the resentment that the “small folk” have for the Game of Thrones and all that it entails. He also is using this to show that you cannot have casual religion without consequences: the ineffectual rubber-stamping Church modeled on the common state of the Medieval Catholic Church will always provide a source for dangerous fanatics that cause problems for everyone.
And, I suspect that this will be an issue in the “Battle for the Dawn”: just as the R’Hllor followers do not accept that there is anybody opposed to the White Walkers who is not with them, the Faith will do the same.
Yung Wolf,
Haha…I thought her name was Sue the furry!
It is not “strong evidence” at all. It is not even weak evidence. The entire theory is that HR catalyzed a religious movement and rode it into King’s Landing. Why do you keep insisting that someone can only do this in the faith they already believe?
What “If Howland Reed, then he will have taken a Church position by force” premise can there possibly be?What little we know of the man suggests that he is not bellicose, anyway. So, this is not evidence that it is Howland Reed at all.
It is not evidence that it is HR specifically, just evidence that it was not someone who worked their way up through the church.
“No he doesn’t.The only distinguishing trait is “mossy green eyes”: which he is not described as having.Yes, he is small: but, then, so are most of the commoners in that world.So, this is evidence for any small person, and not any particular person.Indeed, if Crannogmen are that distinct looking, given that nobody has noticed these features in the HS, this is evidence against HS=HR.”
No, MEERA has “mossy green eyes” while HS has “mud” colored eyes. How much more hinting do you need? The slight builds, short stature, and top-knotted hair? And HS’s gnarly old feet? This is 100% crannogsman description. So if not HR, who? Some other random crannogsman decided to abandon the Old Gods and switch to the Seven?
So are lots of people.Ergo, this is equally good evidence that he any male from HR’s generation, and thus not evidence that he is HR.
Alone, it is almost meaningless. But what fraction of people are about the right age and the right gender? The funnel keeps narrowing…
Never once does he say anything pro-Stark.
Except that whole bit where he mocked Cersei by stating how difficult it was to clean up the (metaphorical) stains of Ned Stark’s blood.
To the contrary, he strongly condemns religions other than the Faith, which is a tacit condemnation of the Starks.
All part of the act, according to the theory.
Now, he’s not particularly pro-Lannister: but if you have not caught on that people can oppose both sides in a conflict, then you have not been paying attention!So, this is just fan-fiction, never mind lack of evidence.
“Not particularly pro-Lannister”? He’s bleeped Cersei at every turn and played her like a fiddle. The HR=HS theory is simply that this was a plan from the beginning.
Which is evidence of many possible things (e.g., the stories that he might not be Robert’s child, the HS’s clear anti-establishment views, his hope of extorting more from the Crown, etc.) and thus not remotely unique evidence that HS=HR.Indeed, HR would probably be playing much nicer with the Lannisters in order to weasel his way into their good graces rather than being so obdurate.So, this is evidence against HR=HS.
I think HS waited long enough to spring his trap. Are you arguing that he should have held out even longer and gotten more? I am not sure what else he could have waited for.
That is evidence that he is lowborn, not highborn.We know that the Crannogmen live in swamps, but we never are told that they are a dirty people.Ergo, it is evidence against HS=HR.
It’s also a highly unusual thing to say in the context it was said. If you think it was a throw-away line, I can see why you’ve soured in GRRM’s writing style.
As do many other things, such as HR attending to his own lands because he’s Lord of the Marshes. Ergo, this is no more evidence of HS=HR than it is of any person that we have not met in the narrative.
Lords have been leaving their lands to their sons or underlings throughout the entire series.
What “If Howland Reed, then expect torture of suspects” premise is there?The Crannogmen are not known for that.However, “If religious fanatic, then expect torture of suspects” is a very sound premise.Religions have used torture to extract confessions for time immemorial.
No, “If HR, out to get Cersei”. The church suddenly starting to use torture was a big twist. Why that moment? HS being pre-disposed to find a way to snag Cersei is one explanation. The Kettleblack/LF connection is another (non-exclusive) idea.
Or it could be because GRRM modelled this on real religions where this is done.It is not much different from the Catholic Church, where Popes drop their names for a new one. Similarly, the Dalai Lama drops use of his name.This is just another example of GRRM using reality as a model.
Some religions do, some don’t. Either way, the funnel gets narrower.
Here is what the High Sparrow really is: a commoner who nurses strong grudges against the nobility for the way that they treat commoners, and who has extended that grudge to the corruption of the Church by the nobility.(This is very similar to what happened in some aspects of the Reformation.)GRRM is using the HS to give us a taste of the resentment that the “small folk” have for the Game of Thrones and all that it entails. He also is using this to show that you cannot have casual religion without consequences: the ineffectual rubber-stamping Church modeled on the common state of the Medieval Catholic Church will always provide a source for dangerous fanatics that cause problems for everyone.
All of what you say after the first sentence is true. All the HR=HS theory adds is rather than HS being a commoner, he is a nobleman who was smart enough to spark this firestorm and ride it. That is a very GRRM-like mechanic.
I certainly do not know if this theory is true or not, but you seem adamantly against it. I find your insistence in disbelieving that someone can or would fake their religion in order to gain power rather odd. It is clearly the core of your objection to it.
Another week, another whole load of people missing the point/suggesting ‘wonderful’ improvements:
The timeline: half the people say the actors are ageing too fast and the other half are saying we should have more seasons as they’re rushing. The timeline has to fit the actors ageing and the constraints of a television budget/filming. Give this a rest.
Sansa is still in a safe enough place for LF’s purposes, the Boltons still won’t kill her as she’s effectively a very useful high profile prisoner, and he’s using her to cause merry havoc in kings landing. Plot hole? No, hole between the ears of you can’t grasp this.
Arya is a mop lady, so boring – boo hoo I want needle! This argument is tedious – we just want wall to wall action do we? Her training has been inventive – the whipping every time she told a lie scene was great. People want Rocky with her running up steps and lifting barrels? Thank god the show runners are in charge!
The ‘yet more rape’ outrage again this episode? Chaos is descending on The Wall, these men without leadership/fear of repurcussions are murderers and rapists. We saw that with the mutiny. There are some bad apples among them and they are getting braver now. This was not a lazy plot device, it’s exactly what you’d expect to happen. Gilly is made of strong stuff, she slept with Sam after- so what. She wasn’t actually touched and it was hours later we’re guessing. She was born at Crasters, she is not a highborn lady.
Great episode, episode 6 saw a slight dip but this was top notch stuff.
Yung Wolf,
maybe because in this alternate univers you are funny