When Alexander Siddig was announced as a new addition to the Game of Thrones cast at San Diego Comic Con in 2014, fans could not have been more hyped. He was a long-time favorite for the role of Prince Doran Martell; him joining the show in the part for season five was a dream come true for viewers who love to fancast the story in advance. Siddig delivered in his performance as the wise and cautious older brother of the beloved Oberyn Martell, but his character was seemingly shunted off to the side. Then Prince Doran was bumped off in an inglorious manner in the season six premiere by Ellaria Sand, furthering the agenda of the Sand Snakes and diverging wildly from the A Song of Ice and Fire version of the character’s plot. Fans were left annoyed and largely baffled by the move.
Speaking to StarTrek.com in a new interview, Alexander Siddig addresses his time on Game of Thrones and what happened there- as much as he knows. He admits he’s “not really sure what happened there,” and says he was actually contracted to do at least four episodes in season six. But something changed, and he received a phone call one day from the showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss:
“So we were going to kill you off at the end of last season, but we decided that we’re going to have to kill you off at the beginning of next season.” I was like, “Okay, life goes on.” But there was something wrong about that because I had been contracted for four episodes in the following season, so if they were going to kill me off at the end of the last season why would they contract me for those four episodes? Because it costs them money whether I do them or not, so it’s not great business sense to do it just in case.
So something happened; I have no idea what. There was an enormous amount of fan excitement when I got named to be on the show, and everyone was like, “Oh my god, yes, Doran Martell. He’s going to be great as Doran Martell.” That might have been the kiss of death. Maybe they didn’t want quite that much attention on that character. Maybe they thought, “Well, let’s prove that we’re going to stray from the books. We’re going to do something else, and he will be our first example of that.” So maybe that could have been the case. Or maybe I just screwed up. Maybe I said the wrong thing to the wrong person.
Siddig has quite a few thoughts on the secretive nature of film and television today in the age of internet snooping, and he speculates on how HBO might have used that to their advantage:
They misinform the crowd and they give them tidbits to send them in wrong directions. So, for example, last season, I believe that the first few episodes were stolen and downloaded online, and everybody got to see them before the show actually aired, and everybody was furious at HBO and whatnot. I don’t know if you remember. I am almost positive that those four episodes were leaked by HBO themselves. So there is an enormous amount of spin going on. I can’t tell you that for sure; that’s just my opinion, but it’s games; everybody’s playing these games.
He speaks at length about his career, his work on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine playing Dr. Bashir, and more about being part of Game of Thrones in his two-part interview with StarTrek.com, so check out the interview at the source: Part 1 and Part 2!
Hodor?
Heh. Let the tinfoil commence.
I agree with him that those episodes were leaked intentionally
Did he just say, “HBO lies, GoT lies, you can’t believe anything they say, this filming is all about lies, secrets and misdirection. And OH, BY THE WAY, here is my TOTALLY TRUE story about my contract negotiations and conversations. And it’s TOTALLY TRUE”?
Classic.
Where’s the popcorn? This is going to be fun.
It wasn’t him, he was a fine addition to the cast, and his dialogue was not insulting, nor was his delivery. The failure of season 5’s Dorne was the fault of the script writers and directors, not Alexander. Sure the three Sand Snakes were pretty average actresses but… I would say the same thing about Emilia Clarke, anyway back on point. They, much like Hayden Christiansen in the atrocity that is the Star Wars prequels, are not to blame either, rather the writer and the director.
He was a great Doran. He confirmed my suspicions that plans for Dorne got changed during the production. I would love to see more of him but on the other hand, I’m not sure how would he fit into the story.
Wow. Doesn’t sound like he is too happy with his experience on the show. His talent was definitely wasted. Obviously in general I love the show, but that whole storyline is just bafflingly bad compared to the rest of the show in my opinion.
King of the SALT throne ?
A totally wasted talent. Underused and poorly written. And now according to him dumped off before his was even contractually obligated to be so. Can’t say I’m surprised that he seems pissed off about it.
No coincidence perhaps that they originally planned to discard the Dorne plot, but then changed their minds. If they’d planned and committed to it from the start maybe we would have got something more satisfying.
I agree. I prefer Doran over the Sand Flakes any time. Would have been easy enough for him to execute the batch after hearing of Marcella’s death; Cersei takes revenge by killing his son. Boom, Dorne backs Dany.
Of course we would have missed out on Olena putting the three in their place.
Now
HotPinkLipstick,
Pass the popcorn.
After watching his performance and the dude’s performance that played Areo and comparing it to the sand snakes, I’d be ticked if I were him too.
I don’t think HBO understood what a lot of the fans were ticked off about with the Dorne plot. The action was bad, the writing was bad, the editing was haphazard. The sand snakes were straight up bad. I think once the show has run its course, the sand snakes will be looked back upon as the Jar Jar Binks of GoT. I think part of this decision to keep the snakes instead of Doran/Areo was in reaction to audience backlash to various stuff in Season 5. Go back and watch the Dorne stuff. It feels so rushed and sloppy compared with the rest of the series.
I feel really bad for the dude that played Areo if he watched Arya’s stab scene with the Waif. He had to take one tiny dagger stab and die without a fight.
I would have enjoyed seeing Doran lock up all the sand snakes and us not having to see any more of them. He and Areo would have been much more enjoyable just because their acting skills are that much better.
Not surprised. From what I understand, the writers never wanted to include Dorne (other than Oberyn) in the first place, but were talked into it by Bryan Grossman.
I’m certain that they probably had some rudimentary plans for the Dorne storyline (probably something a bit closer to what happened in the novels), but once Season Five came out and the whole Sand Snakes / Dorne subplot was nearly universally panned, the writers most likely decided to simply ditch the whole thing and pretend it never existed. Hence why Doran, Aero, and Tristan were all so casually dispatched in the first episode, and we never saw Dorne and the Sand Snakes again until the final episode.
So bitter. But I imagine as an actor you’d be a little peeved to not have the opportunity to fully develop a role, especially if you were made to believe you would. I recall the actor who played Barristan expressing the same sort of sentiments: that he could have done more and been more important to the story.
In the end, I’m pretty sure D&D probably changed a whole lot about what they originally intended for Dorne. Is that the result of the critism they got for that storyline, or is it a result of them not wanting to pull a Martin and spend an excessive amount of time on secondary characters? Who knows. You could make a valid argument for both sides. In the end though, I imagine it’s probably a little bit of both.
ManderlyPieCompany,
Areo was stabbed in the spine, Arya was stabbed in the side. The two stabbings aren’t comparable.
This is going to be so much fun..
Rant and rave thread is going to be back again..
Interesting.
He made a very memorable Doran, though he had so little time and no “great moments”. That’s the power of true talent indeed.
However, I don’t believe that there was any conspiracy or change of the plans. Annoying as they are, the Sand Snakes have their purpose, I believe. IMO, their purpose is to troll this weird version of a “strong” female character which has been produced by the pop-culture in recent years. They are sexy and they wield fancy weapons, but basically they are just bastard girls who want to play at war. Such girls do exist in real world (“Pussy Riot” or Femen comes to mind immediately, when I see the Sand Snakes), so it makes sense to have characters of that type in GoT too.
And of cause, I expect them to pay for their stupidity in the most gruesome way, because war is war and sexy chicks have no place in it (or they have to grow up).
And now it begins…
Wow he’s one bitter man. Benioff and Weiss have TWO writing Emmy’s for a reason Siddig. How many do you have? They know what’s best for the show.
58d9442e19065f59c387f40b32563796Toddles
Who’s Bryan Grossman?
Jack Bauer 24,
Dan and Dave are not good writers contrary to popular belief. Dave was also partially responsible for the abomination that was X Men Origins: Wolverine. They also gave us these gems of writing:
“You need a good girl but you need a bad pussy”
“because you have no cock”
The best writing on the show is George’s from the books. These Emmy awards are essentially a popularity contest from mainstream television execs. Because they know good writing right? No, they know what sells, nothing more.
Jack Bauer 24,
The writing Emmy for Battle of the Bastards was not deserved. The Americans should have won.
Directing, heck yes, Sapochnik deserves all the Emmys.
Jack Bauer 24,
If someone is disqualified from criticizing or critiquing others simply because they may have done or accomplished something you haven’t, and as a result of that “they know what’s best”, than how could there be debate on literally any subject? Let’s take you for example and your criticism of Sophie Turner for her interviews. Have you done many of them? Or been asked over and over in hundreds of interviews for your views on the character you portray in a hit television series? So if we use your argument, seeing that Sophie Turner has accomplished something you haven’t she must “know what’s best”. Therefore, how could you criticize Sophie Turner for her interviews?
As a side….for as much as D&D claim that fan reaction or critical review do nothing to alter the narrative or what they do with the characters/storylines…how much of that is actually true?
I mean, we’re talking about Dorne in this post, but you can make an argument for a lot of storylines. For instance, how much of Sansa’s storyline got changed as a reaction to season 5? That she met Jon and used the Vale troops was really going to happen (regardless of the S5 criticisms), but would they have put such an emphasis on the “exploration” of her post-rape trauma had they not been accused of always overlooking that point in the characters they rape? Or would she have even been the one to feed Ramsay to the dogs? Under less ‘outrage’, wouldn’t Jon have been the one to kill him?
Or, let’s talk about sex. Besides Yara, I don’t recall anyone having sex this season. I don’t even recall that much nudity. Or Daenerys. In the midst of a Dothraki horde (who are known as rapists), that no one even ‘tried’ anything seems out of character for THOSE characters, and a direct response of not wanting to “go there” with another potential rape situation.
I think we can even include the emphasis on “strong female characters” for season 6. That whole season was billed as the season of the women. Would that have been the case if they weren’t constantly being accused of being an “anti-feminist” show?
Did criticism and outrage make them write better stories (arguably) for season 6 or was it always going to be this way, regardless? What do you guys think?
I don’t think Siddig will be working with HBO again anytime soon. Surprised he’s publicly saying HBO leaked those episodes.
Pretty expected to be honest. It was obvious that plans changed between Seasons 5 and 6 for some reason. Most likely, D&D weren’t satisfied with how the Dornish storyline turned out and decided to scuttle the whole thing. As Siddig himself says, if D&D’s original plans were to kill Doran at the end of S5 — which would be the ideal place to do it given how things turned out in S6 — they wouldn’t have contracted him for 4 episodes in Season 6 well in advance.
Now I’m curious what their original plan was. If I had to guess, it probably involved Cersei killing Trystane and Doran openly siding with Dany as a result. Still, considering that the Sand Snakes were the most reviled part of the Dornish plot, I’m not sure why D&D thought that the way to do something about it was to kill off the cool people and leave the problematic ones alive.
I’d love to find out the whole story one day. Same goes for the obvious retooling between Seasons 3 and 4. Exhibit A: Gendry still rowing after having been promoted to cast status. Exhibit B: Yara’s speech about rescuing Theon.
House Applebee,
Need I remind of Robert’s War Stories? Conversation between Robert & Cersei, conversation between Tyrion & Jaime in Tyrion’s cell, and many more?
It was always going to be that way. Benioff and Weiss don’t bend to criticism.
In all honesty I was far from impressed by Siddigs portrayal of Doran. And the dude who played Areo was just awful. They’ve avoided heavy criticism and flown under the radar so to speak, due to the embarrassment that are the Sand snakes.
And whilst I agree that the scripts and director are also to blame, an actor with Siddigs chops should’ve been able to do a much better job than he did with the role.
Such a botch: ditching what was best about the Dorne storyline and hanging onto what was worst. Not to mention leaving non-reader show-watchers with the impression that Ellaria is correct when she characterizes Doran as a ‘weak’ ruler, which is the farthest thing from the truth and just shows the shallowness of her character.
And then the showrunners instruct their cast to promulgate the spin that the season was going to be all about strong women leaders, trying to patch all the flak over the previous season’s two rape scenes? That was rather insulting. I know a lot of feminists, and not one would hold up Ellaria and the Spice Snakes as their idea of heroines.
I suppose that part of the problem is the difference in media – the difficulty of making the subtle strategies of playing the long political game look visually exciting to viewers who expect nonstop action onscreen. But they did both a fascinating character and a superb actor a terrible disservice. I greatly regret that we did not get to see Siddig as Doran play out his full story.
Jack Bauer 24,
So what? If you think the Emmys actually worth anything, you weren’t paying attention. They got the first one for the Mother’s Mercy disaster, which any scriptwriting professor would tear to pieces. Plus, the Dorne storyline is universally panned, and it seems DnD’s genius was on a vacation when they came up with that plotline. And after the last season being the weakest so far, I don’t know if DnD should be left alpne in the writing room, or they should be given some help.
Josh L,
His name is Bryan Cogman
A Man Grown,
Why wasn’t it deserved?
If the plan was to kill him in Season 5 then they wouldn’t have contacted him for 4 Season 6 episodes to begin with. What he says makes no sense.
A Dornish Tyrell,
No, now it ends
please lol
Young Dragon,
thank you.
She was stabbed multiple times full blade into the gut… I suspend my disbelief but sorry, Arya was a dead girl in real life. She wasnt climbing out of the water once she fell in.
I *heart* you.
Season 6 is fantastic. Emmy winning Drama. Seasons 5 and 6 have a combined 24 Emmy’s. Simply brilliant.
They messed up the Dorne story line, and since people did not like it they cut it short… A dent in the GoT epic fantasy…
And Martin gave us “fat pink mast” and “Myrish swamp.” Does that make him a bad writer?
And yet The Winds of Winter is widely considered the best episode in the show’s history, which was all D&D.
I couldn’t give two shits about Doran Martell. He did nothing for me. I don’t care for the rest of the Martells either, but I understand the reason to introduce them, and now I am very intrigued by their teaming up with Dany.
RosanaZugey,
My guess is very vocal criticism of the sort that Dorne and the Sansa storyline of S5 does affect them and their writing, the others not so much. The women were always meant to come into power and grow into their strength. But the exclusivity with which the season focused on woman power and by addition “weak men” was somewhat motivated by the criticism.
D&D recently said that they kept track of the IMDb ratings for ep 9 to see if it would beat Ozymandias. So they do pay attention to public opinion.
Jack Bauer 24,
Who cares about awards? Stanley Kubrick had no Oscars, nor did Hitchcock, or nor does Paul Tomas Anderson. Awards are publicity. They are worthless.
And yeah, Season 6 was fantastic, if you like that the show is ditching its trademark realism, introduces meaningless, repetitive spectactle (Dany burning the temple), leaves no room for characters to speak with each other in any other way than spitting exposition, or just to simply exist while no big event is happening, and that important scenes for the characters’ inner journeys are left out to make screentime for spectacle.
Northop,
hahahahahaha
Dee Stark,
Sorry, I don’t get the joke 🙂
Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,
She was stabbed in the same place twice. It’s possible that the Waif missed her vital organs on purpose so she would die more slowly and more painfully. The only problem I had with it was the chase that followed, which Arya shouldn’t have been able to do.
Northop,
its okay 🙂
He did a good job as Doran.But I don’t blame David and Dan they must have seen it wasn’t working and pulled the plug on it.It’s hard to juggle so many storylines especially when the source material doesn’t give you any help.But hey at least they didn’t drag it out.Now I like conspiracies so I agree that most of the time HBO does the leaking lol.
Jenny,
Why would they do that though. What would they gain?
Northop,
I don’t know what she was laughing at, but I split a side at “trademark realism.”
Because well, you can’t trademark realism. Because it’s not…trademarkable.
And dragons, direwolves, warging, White Walkers, time travel…
Trademark and realism, I’m not sure you get the meaning of those words or how they relate to one another.
Also laughed upthread at “I know a lot of feminists.”
http://67.media.tumblr.com/898fb5546285378c74f3adb31b9bcbb4/tumblr_n6vztzAsjT1qgf1i8o1_250.gif
Ah, this should sate a segment of the fandom after what must have been a disappointing week for them. We even had an ‘X-Men: Origins’ mention! Nice. It’s been a while since the westeros.org crowd brought their rantings and ravings to this site.
My opinion is that D&D did react to the criticisms of season 5 Dorne by scrapping it. As has been stated, it was Brian Cogman who convinced them to include Dorne in season 5 by sending Jaime there. So the D’s were never keen on it anyway. The negative reaction just reinforced their original belief, most likely.
HotPinkLipstick,
Trademark in this case means that the show was known for being realistic. That doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have fantasy elements, it simply means that the show was realistic with the depection of events followed real life. E.g. when Jon Snow was pushed from the top of the hut by the White Walker at Hardhome, he didn’t just stand up and kick its ass, but rather he reacted in a realistic way: you could see that the fall hurt him, and he was unable to stand up immediately and he had to crawl out of the hut to escape. Or another example, is that cuts and scars actually have an impact on the characters, as was the case with Drogo. However, this season, Arya was able to survive and recover from lethal stab wounds in just a few days. That’s not really realistic in my opinion.
Not all women in power are supposed to represent a heroic idol of some sort. Women in power can be evil, or get their power through evil, just like Ellaria did. Cersei did also. Don’t see anyone crying about that. And Just like many other people do on the show.
And you also have powerful men AND women that do represent a good hero, that are not evil… Jon.. Dany…
Newbietothegame,
I did not “hate” the SS because I’m not a particular fan of their book counterparts either. I still prefer the scene from “The Red Woman” than Ellaria and SS being killed in the first episode. At least the scene was a shock to me. On the other hand, I loved how the guards didn’t even flinch when Doran was stabbed. Ignoring his book counterpart, it clearly indicated how they uttery despised Doran and the prince was blind about that for the whole time.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
They are the showrunners. They don’t do things they weren’t keen on anyway just because someone else thinks its a good idea. And criticism is not automatically a rant.
Lord Parramandas,
Some people just cant separate book Doran and show Doran.
Northop,
I think there should be “In my opinion” somewhere…
Dee Stark,
Now that’s something I completely agree with. It’s not the show’s job to create idealised icons for any social issue movements. Portraying all female characters as bad ass heroes is just as sexist, as portraying them as weak people. Being sexist simply means not thinking women are just as complex and imperfect human beings as men, and portraying them in a simplified way.
House Applebee,
There are literally like 5 lines from the books in the show.All the writing comes from the writers.And whether you like it or not the Emmys are the most prestigious awards for television voted by people who actually do that job.Some of the greatest series have won it.Game of thrones has amazing ratings that are going up and up even in its sixth season,is loved by the critics and has won numerous awards.They must be doing something right.Or let me guess anyone who doesn’t think the same as you must be stupid right?
Dee Stark,
I’m not a fan of either of them but I liked Siddig’s interpretation. I could get sense that Doran had some authority and his attitude seemed pretty sinister when he talked to people. Yes, at the end, he was just another weak man and the title gave him no good.
Lord Parramandas,
Sorry, but that’s just diverting attention from the discussion. Everybody knows that all commenters are stating their opinions. If you don’t agree with me, voice your own opinion instead of trying to sidetrack the conversation with nitpicking.
I can’t imagine Doran’s scenes in 4 more episodes to be anything more than a filler. The ending would have been all the same. And D&D kept the Sand Snakes because they wanted to keep the Sand Snakes – to show how grotesque these “Bad Pussy Riot” looks on the background of real drama.
Jenny,
Buzz!I know we say GoT doesn’t need it,but still it gets people talking.I meant to answer to you ghost of winterfell
I really don’t want to read the comments here because I’m going to be pissed and sad. All I can say is that I never hated the Sand Snakes as much as everyone else did and I wasn’t affected by Doran’s death in the slightest. D&D are not gods, they can make mistakes but their work has been amazing so far. I really wish some people stop being so narrow-minded, be objective and admit D&D’s great work especially in S6 and finally realise that GRRM is not the God of literature. Ffs, I have tried to finish AFFC and failed more than 15 times. The books are not perfect, GoT is not perfect.
It’s a TV show people. You may love it or hate it, but calm down.
Lord Parramandas,
In the show, Doran Martell is a passive leader, which puts him at a disadvantage in the game of thrones world. It is known.
Whatever mastermind magician he was in the books, he WASNT in the show, and thank God, because we have enough characters in the show to focus on.
Season 5 Dorne story line was there for Jamie, and for Myrcella to get wacked… it wasn’t about Doran. Yes it looked like it was rushed to produce, but FFS, not everything can be perfect, and having only a week to film at Alcazar in Seville, didn’t help their situation. People need to move on and get over it because it was a small part of the overall show which was of lower quality, so small that they fixed it in season 6 but including it the least possible.
And re: Siddig, people change their minds… D&D own this show, and they can change their minds if they want. Shit happens.
They blew Dorne because they didn’t really understand it or they were responding to criticism. I read somewhere that Cogman said they heard their fans response to the rape scene. If that was the case that maybe the reasoning behind the strong women of season 6. I would have liked them to have to kill Ellarie and the sand snakes instead. Just like with Stannis they didn’t truly understand the character so he was never fully developed. It makes me glad that we never got LSH it would have been a mess judging by others mistakes they made. If they like a plot line they do a great job if not ….
I meant it more as a joke. God, everyone is so serious…
Rhaenys Stark,
omg, read my last comment. hahaha we think a like 🙂 (though I haven’t read the books)
Dee Stark,
Oh! I see you brought your friend Howland with you…
😉
Dee Stark,
Well said, Dee. As you know, it’s not my habit to complain about book/show differences and Dorne is no exception in that.
Northop,
I think the Emmy’s have a decent track record the last 10 years or so of awarding quality dramas. It took a while for them to recognize cable and premium cable, but ever since ‘The Sopranos’ broke through they have pretty much always awarded worthy dramas. Same goes for writing. While many disagree that D&D deserved the writing wins, they join many other good writers who have won Emmy’s recently. So my question is, why are D&D such outliers? If it is just a popularity contest, why hasn’t ‘The Walking Dead’ been nominated and won before? Why did a show like ‘Mad Men’, which had very low viewership, dominate for a half decade? Maybe, just maybe, D&D aren’t the hacks you seem to believe them to be. That isn’t to say they are as good as David Simon or David Chase or Mathew Weiner or David Milch, but they aren’t garbage either.
Lord Parramandas,
Thanks Lord P 🙂 I know.
A Dornish Tyrell,
Hahaha I sure did… I had to say it 😉
Rhaenys Stark,
My thoughts exactly, Rhaenys. The only difference is that I managed to read AFFC for a couple times but the more times I read it, the less I liked it.
Northop,
Wtf are you talking about?What badass heroes?Have you seen the discussions about Dany,Arya,Sansa and not to mention Cersei.People keep discussing if they are right or wrong,cheering on them or being annoyed.All the main female characters are not simplified in the least.You just don’t know what to moan about.
I don’t agree with you here. Not wanting to risk thousands of lives to avenge a few family members, one of whom volunteered to be a champion at a trial by combat is not being a weak man. I would call it being progressive when compared to the feudal society they lived in where commoners’ lives were taken for granted by the ruling class.
He did seem blind to how unpopular his policy of peace had made him however. That was his mistake.
I don’t like when people treat GRRm like Jesus and how he cannot make any mistakes ..
Likewise I don’t like when people treat D&D are gods and can’t be wrong ..
For me these Three and add Bryan cogman also had made many mistakes and sometimes written very poorly but at the same time they have written most of best stuffs as well..
On topic of how they have written female characters …I do have a problem with it…while it was advertised as season of girl power..
Why do we have almost all of the female characters do a kill and enjoy it and audience must be questioning the act ..
Let’s leave cersei,sandsnakes and ellaria..
But it happened with dany and sansa and arya too..
Ican understand Arya enjoying her kill of what she has went through…dany never enjoys a killing in the books and sansa hasn’t killed anyone yet in the books but i doubt sansa will enjoy it as well ..
Compare this with male characters do we have anything same as this …
Lord Parramandas,
Once I read it, which I will eventually… ill tell you what I think hahaha
I have them… just waiting for book 6.
I thought it was fucking weird how they went with Dorne. Shame they screwed over a chance to give his character meaningful time and dialog. Love Siddig.
They should’ve do Arianne + Aegon(Blackfyre history hints before), Quentyn’s storyline and Dorne would bee good enough. Not great, but good enough. But without them, Dorne was butchered.
ghost of winterfell,
I meant that he was “physically” just a weak man. He always seemed like he is in total control but as he was so blind about surroundings, he was just a man at the end who was easily killed and nobody gave a sh*t about that.
You think we’ll ever know exactly how they changed it? In what way? And could the original way have been better than what we got?
Also, has anyone asked why D&D didn’t show us the conversation between Jon and Sansa after they met? I wonder if they originally wrote/filmed that scene, but then opted for a post-conversation interaction instead.
http://i.imgur.com/XlJ68.gif
Rhaenys Stark,
First of all you are right.Second of all I only failed one time and got through the second time.I don’t know how I did it and I don’t remember a thing from it lol.
Jenny,
these people are very very small % of the fandom (from hardcore to casual). Clearly GOT is doing something right.
While I will definitely read book 6, I can say that I’m slowly losing my enthusiasm for the books. I read books 1 and 2 a couple months before season 1 and book 3 during it. Book 4 was released in autumn 2011 in my country and book 5 in summer 2012.
I used to re-read them before every season and try to visualize the characters and the setting from the show but as more seasons aired, my interest for the books slowly faded away. I like reading but I’m more a visual person.
And the final straw was the encounter with book purists on westeros.org. I completely lost my love for the books then. Well, another problem is that since I’ve started studying on university, I have way less time to read
I actually tried to read book 1 again this summer (I have the first three in English and the last two in my native language) and while I managed to read a couple chapters, I found out that I do not enjoy it as much as I used to and I got a feeling that I’m forcing myself to read it. And then, all that crap happened in LFU and my presence was required there and the book slowly slipped my mind.
The Dorne plot was terrible in the books. I am SO GLAD that it wasn’t adapted as is.
I’m not saying I love what we got. Cuz I don’t. But I am happy that at least Doran Martell is a logical and consistent character (he’s a leader who simply wants peace – to keep his country and people safe), unlike the book version (real nice “master plan” sending your idiot son completely unprepared while not informing your daughter and heir and letting her think she was being passed over for your idiot son to the point where she takes things into her own hands).
Anyway. I admit I cheered when Doran got stabbed just because the fan tears would be so delicious.
Lord Parramandas,
yeah I have heard that a few times, makes sense. when you wait for something for so long, you start to lose interest.
but I was highly recommended to read them at least once!
Whats LFU
I just skimmed through the comments so far but stopped on this from the typically-positive-Dee. I don’t disagree with any of it, just that YOU wrote it. 🙂
I thought Alexander did a great job and would have continued if they wanted to expand the role. There are other issues. There are some that like the Dorne storylines in the books but having read comments for years I’d say a large percentage of people do not care for them, perhaps even a majority. I don’t like them and all of it feels like filler in place of the abandoned five year gap. It’s entirely possible that D&D aren’t the biggest fans of these parts of the story either. Like in the show, Oberyn and Ellaria in King’s Landing was good. Pedro doing such a good job as the Red Viper may have enticed them to write in more Dorne story than they originally had planned. They may not admit it but all of the Dornish scenes fall into some of the weakest material they’ve done and critics weren’t very enthused following those episodes. I personally don’t think the source material is good to start with so rather than completely making up good, exciting stuff and forcing more scenes they may have just decided to reduce all of it.
LOL
RosanaZugey,
I doubt we will hear how or why or even if anything changed because of the criticisms. We will only have to guess. Again it’s hard to say if what they intended originally would have been better or not. If something like the LF Sansa scene got written because of this, then obviously it was a good change.
As for the missing Jon Sansa scene I haven’t heard of any such scene being filmed, I doubt there was any such scene. I do know that there was a Brienne Sansa scene that was shot but not included. We will know for sure when they release the deleted scenes.
Dee Stark,
I know that.It’s so funny to me what people expect from a tv show.I have watched so many tv shows some good,some not so good,some brilliant.I have abandoned some tv shows,stuck through with others.Didn’t agree with some writers’ decisions but never called them hacks because after all it was their vision I was following.Honestly what Game of Thrones has done is impressive.They have the largest speaking cast in television and juggle so many storylines in a way that make me care for all of them.Are they perfect?Of course not nobody is.Are there things I wish they had focused more?Of course there are.But that doesn’t mean they don’t do a great job and have created one of the best shows in the history of televison.
Clob,
Hahaha 🙂 Well, I was just trying to say that considering what the gave us, I didn’t care for Doran, and the fact that he was killed so easily. In fact I was surprised and kind of thought it was interesting.
I agree with all your comment.
LOST Fans Unite! My favorite fansite (actually a FB group) about my favorite TV series. We had some real trouble there a couple weeks ago, something I hope I will not have to experience ever again.
No one thinks that.
They murdered two innocent children. They are obviously villains and not meant to give an “impression” of anything else.
Villains winning does not mean villains are right.
Or do you think that Walder Frey “proved” that Robb was a “weak” ruler because he murdered him in cold blood? Did Tywin “prove” that the Reynes were weak and deserved to die by murdering them all? I hope not. I certainly don’t think that’s the message GRRM or D&D meant to send.
Jenny,
Agree with you 1000%
Dual, akimbo swords at the ready ! 😉
I understand Alexander Siddig’s frustration Like I understand Ian McElhinney’s It must be odd to be dispatched unexpectedly, especially when the book version of the character has a healthy following. However, the writers’ decision was probaly the right one.
I get the feeling that, regardless of the execution, the whole point of the Dorne storyline was for Myrcella to die so on the one hand, Cersei would become utterly convinced the prophecy was real and hit rock bottom while on the other hand, Jaime would reinvest his family (via his children) and cheer his sister on (with the ultimate consequences we know). Once that was done, there was not much left for the Martells to accomplish so D&D precipitated their demise in order for the Sands to take over.
Now, on a side note, I really do not believe the showrunners ever intended for Ellaria and her crew to be held as role models or inspirational figures. They made sure to present Myrcella’s death as the epitome of injustice and tragedy : she was a determined, caring, intelligent young woman who had just reconnected with her father and Ellaria decided to poison her in order to take her revenge on Cersei even though a) Oberyn lost (fair and square) a combat he knew beforehand would be to the death, b) Cersei had every right to name the Mountain as her champion and c) it was Tywin who decided to overlook Gregor’s crimes against Oberyn’s sister, not Cersei or any other Lannister.
Everything about Ellaria’s “logic” was explicitly wrong : she just wanted someone to suffer because her misery loves company and she let her deep-seated resentment take over.
If anything, as Dee Stark pointed out, the Sands are living, breathing proof than women can be just as bad as men; they are not inherently purer, kinder or more empathetic than their male counterparts. Some are pretty dumb; some are vile; some are crazy and some are all of that and more at the same time. Cersei is, in a way, another illustration of that notion.
Which, incidentally, is a feminist notion ^^
Jenny,
What are YOU talking about? I just said I think the show is doing a good job not pandering to any social issue movements. You should read the things you reply to, because you just come off as overly protective of the show.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I don’t think DnD are hacks, but they do seem to have problems with putting together the seasons now, and while I know it’s hard to balance so many characters, that doesn’t excuse poor writing. They should hire someone who can help them with the writing, and I mean someone whi has enough experience, not someone like Dave Hill, who obviously doesn’t have enough credits to his name to affect the season outlines greatly.
Okay, I could see how that might remind some people of saying ‘Some of my best friends are black…’ But it was just a hell of lot shorter and less self-serving than transcribing all my feminist credentials going back to the 1970s, which include having worked for the National Women’s Political Caucus ERA Fund and the Planned Parenthood Federation. My point was that it’s a little sickening to be offered up ‘female empowerment’ as an excuse for poorly written scenes that hack off narrative loose ends abruptly instead of tying them up neatly.
I don’t understand your objection to Northop’s use of the term ‘trademark’ as an adjective synonymous with ‘characteristic,’ though. You’re from the UK, right? In the US, the word ‘trademark’ is used that way all the time – not in the literal sense. Like, someone writing about the history of silent film might refer to ‘Charlie Chaplin’s trademark shuffling gait.’ No one here would infer from these words that the comedian tried to get a legal patent on the Little Tramp’s way of walking – just that it is invariably associated with the character. Is the word ‘trademark’ truly never used that way where you come from?
It’s not hard to understand once you watch the Dorne scenes. Every single minute of Dorne from Season 5 was god awful. Can you blame D&D for massively cutting the Dorne story?
I wanted to see more of Siddig, but I thought his performance as Doran was effective for the short amount of time. His death caught me totally off guard.
Given that FAegon, Arianne and Quentyn were cut, maybe D & D felt Doran’s role wasn’t as significant anymore for the show.
Since the series reversed Doran’s and Ellaria’s roles from the books, I wonder if Book Ellaria will meet the same fate as TV Doran. It seems Book Dorne is divided and headed for civil war over Dany vs. FAegon, and Ellaria the peacemaker could be a casualty.
Might we remember that Dorne in the books was equally shit and filled with the warrior women stereotype, complete with ridiculous plot, terrible writing, and manifestly stupid dialog – with characters that are entirely useless to most of the main plot. D&D according to you folks may not be Pulitzer prize winning writers, but let me tell ya folks, neither is George.
Always nice to have a mini-controversy to keep things interesting until something hype-worthy leaks from the set. Props to Alexander Siddig for coming through.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I wouldn’t go as far as calling them hacks either, but as far as the Emmys go, it’s not a coincidence that Game of Thrones only started to win for Writing after the switch to a popular vote last year. Under the new system, it’s much easier for a popular show to sweep. You can’t really compare two Emmy wins under a system where voters are getting away with not even watching what they’re voting for to all the wins that came before under the tape system. Plus, it’s difficult to take the writing wins seriously when you actually watch most of the shows that D&D are competing against. I think they’re great show-runners who manage to pull off the impossible year after year and employ some of the best talent in the industry. They absolutely deserve to be winning for Best Drama Series. Writing, though? That’s a piggyback win, and I think even they know it.
After reading the books, one of the things I really wouldn’t have minded being scrapped on the show was Dorne. Then Alexander Siddig got casted, and that opinion turned around 180 degrees. Then the episodes aired, the Dorne storyline unfolded, and that opinion changed another 180 degrees.
There’s something to be said about acting on information that something doesn’t work. Salvage what can be salvaged? I can see how you’d not kill off the Sand Snakes, too, after all the promotional hype you’d surrounded them with at the start of season 5. The choices that were made just didn’t improve things much.
I also think, from part 1 of this interview, that Siddig is happy enough doing the work he did before and after GoT not to mind his wordings too much. Knowing Indira Varma has worked with HBO before, on Rome, I just can’t help wondering if attitudes of actors involved did decide things in the Dorne plot.
But yeah. Dead is dead, so why even care. I’ll be off, clutching the little treasure box I put in the ‘parley’ scene with Jaime, Bronn, Ellaria, Trystane and Myrcella Doran presided over. Twill go on the ‘memorable moments of GoT I’ll always be thankful for’ shelf.
Dorne gets too much attention in this fandom for no reason at all.
Rhaenys Stark,
I guess “great literature” is different things to different folks, Rhaenys. I read somewhere – not sure if it was on another thread here or the site that shall not be named or somewhere else entirely a comment where the poster stated that GRRM was good at beginning a story but perhaps less adept at finishing. I tend to agree with that statement. I’m old-fashioned and I like a story to have a beginning, a middle and an end. I must admit when I read AFFC and ADWD I did think that it was getting towards the middle of the saga and if there were supposed to be 7 books perhaps the storylines should be becoming less sprawling whereas they were becoming more so. The first three books (which I read/well listened to) after seeing the corresponding TV series did draw me in as the TV show had. There were some interesting things in the last two books – Wimsey disagrees I know but I liked the different cultural aspect of Dorne where if the eldest child were a girl she would inherit the rulership of the principality in due course. I think it’s possible D&D liked working with Indira Varma and therefore gave her character more to do (thus significantly changing the charater from the books). I admit that the line [I may be roughly paraphrasing as I’m going from memory] “the more she drank the more she shat” (about Daenerys) in ADWD didn’t strike me as “great” literature. A few years ago there was a legal based series (modern times) on the BBC called “Silk”. Maxine Peake played the main character but Jessica Henwick played a person called Amy Lam – in my opinion at least Jessica Henwick acquited herself well in that role. You are right that both book and show writers have written some parts better than others – I know it was supposed to be funny but I thought the “Tripod” scene was a waste of time. I mean really – could you see Littlefinger letting any of his “girls” give back their earnings because they liked their client!
Curiouser and Curiouser.
This just keeps getting more baffling.
Kind of confirms what we suspected – only in the sense that “something weird happened but we don’t know what”.
But as he said….he’s contracted for four episodes in Season 6, then he gets a phone call saying “look we planned to kill you off in the Season 5 finale, but we’re doing that in the Season 6 premiere instead”…..WTF?
But I don’t know if this supports one side or the other: did they decide to kill off Doran Martell before or after season 5 even aired? Was it a reaction to disliking how Dorne was going, or, was it that the writers just liked Indira Varma more?
I honestly don’t know.
“Or maybe I just screwed up. Maybe I said the wrong thing to the wrong person.”
Ah, they made Doctor Bashir cry. Dasterds.
I have seen lots of people on these message boards taking Ellaria’s assessment of Doran as a ‘weak’ ruler at face value, because the show never bothered to explain what he was really up to. (In fact it couldn’t, since it wrote out his two elder children.) Even on this thread, there are people arguing that he was oblivious to public opinion in Dorne. In the books it is not so; everything goes into Doran’s calculations, whether you agree with his long-term plans or not. But the showrunners are prone to cutting out layers of nuance just to keep things galloping along.
And I did not say that TV audiences didn’t get it that Ellaria is villainous. What I said and meant is that the showrunners (and the actors as their surrogates) used ‘female empowerment’ as a sales pitch and an excuse for hasty and poorly executed script changes. It’s like they’ve saying, ‘Look, we heard you about there being too many rape scenes, so this season we’re going to make it up to you by giving you lots of female agency. You won’t mind if the characters are one-dimensional, as long as they’re badass.’ That approach, I and many other women perceive as patronizing – and also entirely missing the point about what went wrong in Season 5.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BKqkLT6BrjZ/
Well at least Gemma seems to be ok 🙂
We trust him because he has a history of being honest with the fanbase; D&D have a history of outright lying or ignoring us even when they made obvious mistakes which weren’t even their active fault.
icequinn,
It creates hype. A lot of music albums get leaked for the same reason.
Firannion,
“Look, we heard you about there being too many rape scenes, so this season we’re going to make it up to you by giving you lots of female agency. You won’t mind if the characters are one-dimensional, as long as they’re badass.’ That approach, I and many other women perceive as patronizing – and also entirely missing the point about what went wrong in Season 5.”
I, and many other women I know, don’t see it that way, I don’t see it as the what they were trying to do, and I don’t see it as making up for season 5 reactions
So I guess we all perceive things different. So its hard to say what D&D’s intentions actually were. Because you say it so confidently.
The Dragon Demands,
D&D don’t owe us anything, lol.
mau,
Yeah, there are some comments where people wanted the show to have more detail on Doran to have been included in the show to get to know who he really was … ummm no thank you, the 70 hour show doesn’t have time to waste on a minor character like Doran. Show Doran is Show Doran, end of story.
Who the eff cares!
Lord Parramandas,
Well, whatever it is, I hope so too!
Isnt that show over?
There is no “best” about the Dorne story in the novels. It’s bad (imo). Arianne makes a plan! It goes nowhere. Quentyn has a quest! It goes nowhere. Doran is revenge-obsessed yet has sat on his ass for seventeen years. His words don’t match his deeds, an indication he was a late addition, badly integrated. Show wisely cut Arianne and Quentyn. It should have kept all of Dorne in the background, until Olenna shows up and asks for an alliance.
On Ellaria’s take that Doran is a weak ruler: ELLARIA sees Doran as a weak ruler. That says something about Ellaria’s take on rulership. It says little about Doran. Doran wanted peace. He was probably wise. He got outplayed and screwed. See Ned.
Ellaria is a “strong ruler,” in that she heads a successful coup against a sitting prince, then places Martells in a strong position against the Lannisters. That makes Ellaria an effective wartime ruler. Whether she is morally upright is immaterial.
As far as women: I can go on a tirade on what GRRM does to his female characters in the last two novels, starting with his character assassination of Cersei. I won’t. What is notable for me is that, in the show, Cersei is on the throne, Dany and Yara are on the armada, Olenna and Ellaria are in an alliance, Arya is Stark revenge in the Riverlands, and Mormont is kingmaker in the North. Jon and Euron are the only men left in positions of power, with Tyrion and Littlefinger as advisers to Dany and Sansa. The preponderance of women in influential roles is remarkable.
Well, the Season 5 Blu-ray mentions some of this:
Originally they never intended to actually go to Dorne at all, because it doesn’t have any previous characters familiar to the audience (back in Season 1, that is, before Ellaria was cast). After Season 4 finished, however, Cogman suggested that they could send Jaime there – which I think was actually a good idea, have him in the place of that other Kingsuard Arys Oakheart, as it were.
Cogman also confirmed in the Blu-ray commentary for episode 5.6 that he wasn’t the guy in charge of the Dorne subplot at all — I don’t know the full breakdown for every subplot, but Cogman is usually in charge of Arya and Stannis subplots.
So even though that was Cogman’s brief suggestion, D&D then ran with it….
….and in short, Dorne felt rushed because it *was*. Yes, as you said; if they hadn’t just changed course at the last minute but simply had plans to do this for years, it probably would have been a lot better.
If you count it up from YouTube supercut videos….they actually shot 40 minutes of Season 5 on Dorne. Granted, Jaime was in that and he’s a primary cast member, but still…..consider that the Greyjoy Kingsmoot subplot in Season 6 only lasted about 25 minutes, by comparison. I know, I was stunned too when I counted up 40 minutes….a lot of them just kind of drag on.
Anyway, the only other big clue we have is from the commentary for episode 5.10: Benioff says that they never, like, in Season 3, intended for Ellaria to be a major character or to go to Dorne in the TV series. But once they case their wish-list actress Indira Varma, “we reconceived the characer and the storyline to be more worthy of the actress’s talents”.
but this rewrite was done only after Varma was cast, and Varma was only cast after writing the actual scripts for Season 4 was pretty much done; thus this “reconception” only really occured in Season 5. She felt like a different character between the two seasons because she was.
After hearing that, I’m not even sure if Cogman’s point about “maybe we can send Jaime there was a viewpoint character” (which was a good idea) was the SOLE reason they actually took time out of AN ALREADY OVERSTUFFED SEASON to actually show Dorne. The deciding factor may have really been “this gives us a chance to show off Indira Varma, by rewriting Ellaria and the entire plot to give her “more to do””. It was at least a factor, given how excited they were to get Varma.
But at least some of us were saying it sort of made time sense to combine Ellaria with Arianne, economy of characters and all. She’s the one that wants revenge? Fine.
….the real question which I have no idea about is….at what point did they outright plan to KILL Doran?
Only at the end of production on Season 5? Or near the beginning? Surely, how else could the assassination of Myrcella play out? That’s what we were asking during the break between seasons.
Or was this in fact them “dropping a meteorite on Dorne” by reducing four episodes to two brief appearances just to keep it off camera?
OR, did they want Ellaria to kill Doran ALMOST from the beginning of Season 5 when they “reconceived” the character?
I honestly don’t know which is worse or which of these may be the actual explanation.
I am skipping the back and forth to make this point: the actor playing Doran had to be a strong counterpoint/counter-weight to Oberyn’s recklessness. Siddiq brought that to a part that was underwritten in a side-plot that is pretty much unloved. That being said consider this: The Books are a completely different art form than film/cinematic television. You have to cut things when adapting from the pure literary form to the dramatic form. Now, let me say this: I am intrigued by the Dorne storyline and would enjoy a spin-off series about a society that evolved with a relatively feminist/egalitarian model as opposed to the (all but tired and) traditional Northern European edition of feudalism.
In all fairness Dave was only one writer on the Origins:Wolverine script and so many other writers worked on it after him that even Elio & Linda point out that the final version doesn’t really reflect whatever he put in.
What I would ask Alexander Siddig if he reads this: how frequently were Benioff and Weiss drunk in your presence? Because we get weird reports….far too frequently. Like that time Benioff shattered the bones in both his hands in a drunken fist fight with Jason Momoa at the end of Season 2.
Ok, after further consideration:
I thought that Doran was an incredibly boring character in the books. Another mastermind patriarch in Tywin’s vein.
So, I was very pleasantly surprised when the show unceremoniously bumped him off. The Sand Snakes get a plus from me just for the chutzpah of going against the wishes of so many fans and surviving longer than he did.
omg, lol, and you believe everything you read? hahahahaahaha
wow, today. *eye roll*
I knew it. I knew they did massive late rewrites. In the behind the scenes special, they mentioned how late in the development process, they added a 3rd unit. I was surprised at that. And you could tell the Trystane scene was jammed in there. I could just tell from episode 1 that something was off.
This makes me so frustrated. The vitriol over Dorne was out of fucking control. Dorne was absolutely fine as is, but people acted like it was the worst joke they’d ever scene. It reminded of the hate towards Prometheus — people were understandably mad at the deceptive marketing campaign, but they translated that anger into unfairly ripping apart the movie. With GoT, book readers were angry that Dorne was unrecognizable to the books and that they had taken characters and completely changed them. I get that, but the amount of hate was ridiculous.
Argggghhhh this gets me so frustrated. The loud vocal minority always wins. Whether it be pitching a bitch about Dorne, or accusing D & D of sexism and misogyny.
TRUTH!
WE’re talking about Dorne here but someone else brought it up:
No, I don’t think Sansa Stark was suddenly “strongly written” at all in Season 6; if anything it was a catastrophic failure.
I mean others have said this better but…she sort of just fades into the background *in her own revenge storyline*. Did they add her yelling at Littlefinger about her trauma in response to rape criticisms? That specific scene…mmaybe, I’m not sure.
But to ask a dumb question: What the heck did Sansa do to “defeat” Ramsay at all? Jon Snow and Littlefinger’s army defeated him. Did we ever see Sansa successfully winning over a Northern House to her side, acting as a political leader? No.
….how does Sansa randomly appearing at the end of the season to kill a man *already tied to a chair in a prison cell*…count as her “defeating” him? Or “narrative agency”?
Sansa had no major impact on the Ramsay Bolton subplot; she literally just flipped a switch at the end to kill a man already defeated and tied to a chair. I don’t know how anyone could see that as empowering….I think a lot of people were so upset by them gutting Sansa’s narrative role that they’re grasping at straws, happy for any crumbs, when she really wasn’t doing anything.
“Season of the women”….because the source novels ALREADY depicted Daenerys, Yara, and Cersei rising in political power? How is this something D&D did FOR us?
But to turn back to Dorne….how can anyone say with a straight face that Ellaria killing Doran was positive feminism?
But as so many others have said in this thread: they realized Dorne wasn’t working and wanted to abruptly end it in Season 6….so they killed off the characters people didn’t have an issue with or even liked (Doran and Areo) and kept the most problematic ones?
The first two of those are from Season 1 — post-Red Wedding, D&D never repeated that but have just been phoning it in. As for the third…you seriously consider the four minute long beetle speech to be a good idea?
I wonder if Siddig misunderstood and D&D told him they originally had planned to kill Doran at the end of Season 6, but changed it to the start.
Weird interview.
Once again, I totally agree with you! 🙂
I have not much to say though… except that I’m utterly enjoying some of the nonsense and “pearl-clutching” comments in this thread.
Dee Stark,
I’m usually not one to complain about the direction of the show and I don’t think I bitched much when the Dorne plot unfolded the way I did, but I gotta admit, it did bother me like no other change had bothered with exception of Jon’s development in Season 2 (they got him right back on track in later seasons). And it was not because I loved the Dorne storyline in the books, I mean I preferred it to the Iron Borne storylines that sidelined my favorite characters for an entire book, but I didn’t really love Dorne. What bothered me about Show!Dorne is that they were not careful in executing such drastic change. Book!Doran and Show!Doran are basically the same character. Measured, intelligent and decent. So there’s really no change in the actual character and other than Ellaria no significance difference between Book SS and Show SS. The uglyness of the Dorne storyline came in the execution and the lack of respect for what they had sold us before with Oberyn. The SS and Ellaria loved Oberyn and wanted to avenged his death but if they loved him so much what sense did it make for them to kill his brother, his family? Oberyn was all about family, he would have never allowed for the murdered of his older brother and his son. Oberyn was a snake but he so loved the tall grass that allowed him free movement. So that to me was the element that made me totally cringe at that entire sequence. Having not read Book 6, I admit that I may be wrong but I’m not sure any of the SS would actually lay a hand on Doran out of respect for their father. Anyhow, all that to explain why some of us book readers were so bothered by that storyline. It would have been wiser to leave it out of the show like they did with other storylines that seemed even more important to the central characters.
Yeah, other than Oberyn pretty much everything Dorne related has sucked on the show, 2nd most annoying thing behind the complete character assassination of his grace Stannis of the house Baratheon the One True King of Westeros!
The Dragon Demands,
LOL. Is this the type of discussion that happens at westeros now? D&D are drunks, and that is the reason for whatever bad decisions they may have made(in the eyes of their critics)?
The Dragon Demands,
Thank you for being so ridiculous it’s funny.I have a laugh everytime I read your comments lol.
Logic is awesome.
Danny,
Some times, people blinded with revenge, will not really think of how someone else feels… Ned or robb would not approve of aryas path to vengeance, but she is blinded by vengeance, so she will do whatever it takes to get it. Its a little different in this case because Ellaria is killing Oberyns family who he loved very much… but whether or not Oberyn would approve of it is not, in my opinion, a bad writing / inconsistency. Its not like she stabbed Doran and said this is what oberyn would want.
I don’t think they gave us show watchers only enough background on the SS to show us that they would never lay a hand on their fathers family out of respect. They seemed ruthless and vengeful from the beginning.
Jenny,
LOLOL
Danny,
But revenge doesn’t work that way. When people take revenge, they tell themselves that they’re doing it for the person they’re avenging, but that’s not the truth. They’re doing it for themselves, to make themselves feel better. Ellaria wanted to hurt Cersei because she blamed her for Oberyn’s death. Doran was in the way of her revenge, so he had to go.
The Dragon Demands,
Hahaha… you were cleary listening to Linda for too much time. How can a person like you even clasify himself as a fan….
Young Dragon,
exactly, all revenge works that way. most people you’re avenging wouldn’t want you to do anything. Unless youre in the mafia haha
This is exactly right! Revenge is the ultimate selfish act… and a dangerous path to take.
The Dragon Demands,
Thank you!
It was already suspected when the episodes leaked that HBO leaked them.
This. Exactly this. She went to an already beaten and imprisoned man’s cell, opened a door to let his dogs in, and that is called her ‘first kill’. It was given to her, no blood got on her hands (and never will). Was it satisfying that she flipped the final switch? Sure, for her fans who wanted to see her be the the last thing her abuser saw. Was Ramsay right in saying, “You can’t kill me…”? Absolutely.
They would have done very well in ending the Dorne storyline with Oberyn. He was, in large part thanks to the wonderful Pedro Pascal, a charismatic character to root for, to be Tyrion’s champion (god I loved that scene in the cells), and to be responsible for his own death. Heck, if it happens that Dany is going to be vs Cersei and needs Dorne as allies, then bring back Ellaria as your token ‘hey, I hate Cersei for Oberyn’s completely voluntary death, so i had her daughter killed and I’ll join you!’ background character. Done.
Pigeon,
I wouldn’t even call it her first kill. She didn’t even open the door or command the dogs to attack. In the previous scene she asked Jon where Ramsay was and then we saw him in the kennels (where Jon or whoever he commanded had put him). So…..yeah…..
Flayed Potatoes,
I know, that’s just what they’ve called it in a couple of interviews and I’m like “Alright….” Now if she’d just held on to that corkscrew and stabbed him to death, maybe. ?
Flayed Potatoes,
Yeah it was her first kill.
She wanted to do this. She asked Jon where he was. She decided to have it done that way, so yeah it was her first kill.
Jack Bauer 24,
Yes, the reason being their show makes a lot of money, if you believe they got them on merit I don’t know what to tell you.
Pigeon,
I know right? She just stared at him while the dogs went out by themselves lmao. If they’d shown her command the dogs or ask for him to be put in the kennels, I’d believe she was the one who killed him. I guess I’ll give this kill to the dogs.
James Rivers,
I had the same feeling. IMO, Doran’s death in the mid or closer to the end of S6 would have made sense. Some plot twist could have been developed around that as well (for instance, Trystane returning home and confronting the Sand Snakes). But that would have been a filler basically, so I don’t mind.
And I think that the Sand Snakes were intended to end up in Dany’s camp from the beginning: she needs some bad allies for the sake of shades of grey, and none of her other allies/followers can play this role.
Flayed Potatoes,
Ah, you need things spelt out for you
Bob,
Why should the Emmy voters care how much money a show makes? Unless you’re suggesting HBO is paying them off.
Young Dragon,
What part of the body can be stabbed like Arya and not die? She got hit in the gut and would have suffered from mass internal bleeding and death.
Says Northop, a random dude on the internet without any awards at all.
No, really. You’re a funny guy. Please keep telling us how D&D need help, considering their show won best writing and best drama for the second time in a row.
But eh, who cares about awards? Not you, because it doesn’t help your narrative.
Flayed Potatoes,
Totally agree. When I first watched the episode I got the feeling that it was Jon who decided to feed Ramsay to the dogs. That look he gave him when he got up! And it was Jon whom Ramsay told that he had been starving his dogs for seven days planing to feed his defeated enemies to them… I know that Kit’s later interviews implied that it was Sansa’s revenge, but maybe they just decided that Jon feeding Ramsay to the dogs would be too much for the fandom?
All I know is Siddig has been criminally underused and his character ended up looking pretty stupid and decidedly unwise and unknowledgeable.
The whole Dorne storyline really didn’t work (or actually make sense) for me.
The Dragon Demands,
I don’t know when they decided to kill Doran but in S5 we had this scene.
Doran Martell: . But we do not mutilate little girls for vengeance- not here. Not while I rule.
Ellaria Sand: And how long will that be?
Those pearls are getting clushed so hard I worry for their structural integrity 😉
I am sorry to ask but, by this standard, what did Jon do to defeat Ramsay ?
If the Vale is to be seen as Littlefinger’s army (I would assume because it was his opinion that led the Eagles to side with the Starks), then the Free Folk should probably be perceived as Tormund’s troops (he was the last one to argue in favour of joining the Starks before Wun Wun and Dim Dalba gave their verdict, not Jon). As for the Mormont men, all 62 pieces of ursine fierceness of them, they must technically be Davos’s, not Snow’s, for it was him who spoke last before Lyanna gave her support.
In the same vein, by the time Jon and Ramsay faced each other in the Winterfell courtyard, Bolton was just as already defeated as he was when tied to a chair in the kennels some time later. All his men had seemingly disappeared (no idea where they went, by the way… Convenient disappearance is convenient ! ^^); he was pretty much the last Bolton soldier in the vicinity and the Stark archers had him in their sights, at very close range. The only reason why they did not turn Ramsay into a very abused pincushion on the spot was apparently because they understood how personal it was for Jon and decided to let him have his revenge on the last Bolton. They allowed him his moment of fury, even though it was in effect about as utterly pointless as letting Sansa oversee the “death by canine starvation” punishment; Ramsay was dead meat anyway.
And so on, and so forth…
If one wants to see Jon as somewhat passive during the whole Ramsay subplot, one can. Similarly, if one wants to see Sansa as somewhat passive during the same story arc, one can.
I, for one, see them both as having done stuff ^^
On a more general note, “season of the women” does not mean squat, to be honest, unless we take into consideration that the “norm” for women in Westeros is to have their status be exclusively defined by whichever male relative has authority over them, be he a husband, a son or a father. That is one hell of a low standard, admittedly, but then again, women on Planetos do not have it easy…
In this regard, then yes it was the “season of women” for we saw more female characters refuse to abide by this logic : Ellaria did not get the Dornish throne as Oberyn’s “widow” but as the leader of a successful coup; Cersei did not become Queen because she was Tommen’s mother or Tywin’s daughter but because she seized the crown for herself; Daenerys refused to have her life defined by her status as Drogo’s widow; Yara decided to try to overtake Euron, the uncle she is supposed to serve; Sansa contributed to a war against Ramsay, a husband the law orders she obey; etc.
They do not have to do much to be “empowered”; they just have to refuse to play by the “stand by (and a few steps behind) your man no matter what” rule unless they want to. What they do after that can be lame, useful, crass, clever, reprehensible, genius or any other colour of the rainbow… Like their male counterparts ! 🙂
Yeah, for my money that was the most interesting thing that the Dorne chapters brought to the book version. After the first three books established a patriarchal society adhering to Salic primogeniture as the norm for most of Westeros, the Dorne side-trip makes us consider an alternative medieval paradigm in which someone like Cersei or Sansa could’ve been an heir to a title and someone like Brienne would not necessarily be treated like a freak. Sarella/Alleras, who refuses to accept that her scholarly ambitions must be stymied by the no-girls-allowed policy of the Citadel, represents a new generation of leaders who are taking action toward social change.
Maybe this is excessive optimism, but I took the glimpse into the ‘Dorne alternative’ as foreshadowing that, once the War for the Dawn is over and the survivors have to pick up the pieces of their civilization and patch it back together, what comes next will not be a return to pure feudalism. Society will march on, at least in some small degree. That’s where I see characters like Tyrion, who have the capacity to “dream things that never were and say ‘Why not?'” (to paraphrase Robert F. Kennedy paraphrasing George Bernard Shaw), as having an essential role to play in the postwar recovery and transition.
WallyFrench,
She would have bled out, except she received medical care from Lady Crane.
Inga,
I think they made some changes because of the backlash they got after Sansa’s storyline in season 5. I remember in one of the bts videos they said that they had planned for the BtoB to end on the battlefield and they later changed it to end at Winterfell. So yeah I think the season 5 criticism impacted multiple storylines (including Jon). I think it’s pretty obvious that Sansa won’t be killing Ramsay in the books too.
They had Jon hang a child, so I doubt him feeding Ramsay to the dogs would alienate the fandom.
Morgoth,
You’re also just a random dude on the internet, so that’s not really a good argument. But there’s a reason why many people say the show is weaker now, and the last season WAS weaker than the previous ones. This isn’t my narrative, or whatever. I still think it’s great, but it is more flawed than ever. Why I expect blindly loyal fans on a fansite to accept any criticism I don’t know, probably I just think we can have different opinions and we can voice them freely. Also, it is funny how you keep bringing up the awards to justify your opinion. You claim the Emmys are a prestigious award which always go to the best…oh, except when the fan-favourite actors and actresses are snubbed, because when that happenes, Emmy voters are called dumb and retarded. But if you still believe these awards mean anything, just look through the Oscar winning directors in the past ten years. I bet you wouldn’t recognise any of them without help. Because most of the time they’re uninteresting filmmakers, without a uniqe voice. And sometimes they’re actually great directors, but even then, they only win because they are backed by the studio with the best PR department.
IMHO I believe that the Dorne plot was done in by the fact that they got to film in the Alcázar. It was such a coup at the time but it ended up straight-jacketing them. They couldn’t damage anything, they couldn’t film at night, they had only 2 weeks. Hence the stupid Jaime/Sand Snakes fight, the abbreviated scenes, the lack of any other real Dorne locations (other than TOJ which happens in the past).
They could’ve done better in the Belfast studios.
Amusingly enough, on the show, this role has been taken by Cersei…
She shattered the Salic law by, in effect, declaring absolute primogeniture : taking the crown for herself instead of giving her (younger) brother the priority. Admittedly, she did it solely for herself but the ripple effect is coming.
You know things are bad when Cersei, of all people, becomes an agent of positive social change ^^
Morgoth,
Yeah. Tv rating doesn’t matter, Emmys doesn’t matter, IMDB doesn’t matter, critics doesn’t matter,…
But what matters? Nerds on internet?
He just broke into Winterfell with Wun Wun and Tormund and then disarmed and captured Ramsay with his bare hands. No biggie 😛
The Vale was useful, there’s no denying that, but whose army was it that drew Ramsay out of Winterfell to begin with? Who did they follow? Jon.
Ramsay wouldn’t have come out of Winterfell to face the well-armed Vale troops. He would come out to crush Jon. Jon and his army drew him out and Wun Wun broke the gate.
Northop,
But what matters for you? If not awards what? TV ratings? Can you find any area where GoT is not recognised?
And who said that last season was weaker than the previous ones?? For majority S6 and S4 were the best.
Let’s not stoop to ad hominem attacks. We’re all just random dudes ‘n’ dudettes here. And we’re all entitled to our points of view, and to make our cases for them.
True dat. Gotta love the irony!
A Man Grown,
I agree 100%.
It’s so sad that the Americans still hasn’t won an Emmy. It’s the best show on television in terms of the quality of the storytelling (in my opinion obviously), and yet it’s been snubbed year after year. The Emmys have mostly become a popularity contest, as others have noted.
Markus Stark,
They have 2 guest actress Emmys for a couple of minutes of screen time.
But yeah it deserves more than what it has.
Markus Stark,
So when will the walking dead win?
mau,
None of these matter to me personally, because when I like something I don’t care if it is the hightest-rated thing on IMdb or not. I mean, does that change anything? No.
And what do you mean by matter? In terms of fiancial success, ratings matter, and nothing else. In terms of prestige, awards matter, but not ratings. If you seek a universal “this definitely means that this show is good” type of indication, you won’t find any. I don’t understand why anyone would bother with these formalities, especially because they distract you from the show itself. Who cares if Kit didn’t win? Does that mean that he isn’t good? No! Who cares if David Nutter won? Does that mean he is good? No! He might be, but it’s not the awards that decide it.
And I said that the last one was the weakest. I know which ones were the most popular, but that simply indicates different expectations. Season 4 and 6 were definitely the most spectecular and most fit for mass consumption. I don’t mean that in a negative sense, it’s just a fact. They had the most twist, wtf moments, bug action, fast pace, and so on. But that doesn’t mean those ones are the best. From a professional point of view, season 6 had many writing issues. But still, your opinion is yours only, and you shouldn’t let awards or anything else tell you not to like it.
Yes. This from Firannion has my full concurrence.
(and the rest of Firannion’s post too).
mau,
I said “mostly”. Obviously quality is still taken into account, and Game of Thrones remains a far better show than the TWD in basically every respect. I’m not saying the Emmys are meaningless (I know some people are saying that), I’m just saying I feel like popularity and cultural impact have been given more weight in recent years. Game of Thrones has been an incredible cultural phenomenon, and has reached a scale that the TWD could never dream of.
Plus Game of Thrones is by far the best show in the history of television in terms of production values.
In short, there are many factors that play a role, and I think the actual quality of the storytelling isn’t taken into account as much as it used to be.
Northop,
Your ignorance is irritating and funny at the same time.
You are claiming that the last season was the weakest “from a professional point of view”? You mean professionals who voted for GoT at the Emmys? Or professional critics who praised S6?
Which professionals? You?
I won’t speak about popularity, because GoT has no competition there.
Ha ha ! Cersei as a social justice advocate… Minds will be blown (probably with wildfire 😉 )
I am not arguing that is was not impressive. I am merely putting forward that, by the time the mano-a-mano started, Ramsay was already defeated. He was in effect captured the very moment the small group of Stark men, led by Wun Wun, entered the courtyard. He was alone; all his men had vanished (Literally. Where did those guys go ? ^^); he was surrounded by Stark archers. His goose was already as cooked as when he was tied to a chair in the kennels, just with less blood on his face.
So while Jon charging at him and punching him was both emotionally understandable and physically demanding, it did not precipitate or even cement Bolton’s defeat. That was already signed, sealed and delivered (as Stevie would say), courtesy of Wun Wun (RIP) smashing the door.
That being said, I do not wish to be misunderstood here : I do not for a second think Jon was useless in bringing Ramsay down. Au contraire. I was simply going through a little thought experiment : if one can see Sansa as utterly ineffective in defeating Ramsay then, using pretty much the same logic and arguments, one can see Jon as equally superfluous.
In my entirely subjective opinion, neither of them was unnecessary so I am pretty ok with their respective roles 😉
He was the only bright spot in that whole horrid storyline. He was the victim of everyone else’s failures.
Markus Stark,
As much as being an incredible cultural phenomenon is an advantage for GoT, it is also a disadvantage, because D&D’s work is under so intense scrutiny.
There are so many people who are desperately trying to prove that GoT is not deserving the status it has.
This post is ridiculous. Utterly.
A real shame this
He certainly looked the part, but suffered from bizarre choices of co-stars and clunky dialogue
Obviously would have been much better if it was Doran who created the deal, we could have done the Fire + Blood, eg keeping Trystane still engaged to Myrcella would have worked as it was Tyrion who made the deal – now Dany’s hand – and so the marriage pact is very much a case of goodwill between Doran and Tyrion specifically and feeds excellently into the tug of war with his late father (and now Jaimie) for example who made extra effort to entice Oberyn with a Council seat and Judgeship as he recognised he needed the Dornish onside
Could have taught show Ellaria something about not jumping stupidly into vengenace but have to be in it to win it and Dorne needs allies and to engage in alliance building.
Eg Tyrion/Myrcella deal basically means that he not only gets to have Targ allies to replace Baratheon/Lannister but there is a succession plan for a non-hostile post war Casterly Rock with Tyrion as Lord. Of course another piece is when Olenna brings the Tyrells over etc
Of course as the Prince of Dorne he has more authority than non-Noble Sands to make such deals but anyway the abomination Horse that is show Dorne has truly bolted out of the poorly designed Stable Door…
mau,
I’m sorry, but your ignorance is far greater. Professional means in this case professional scriptwriter. A well-written script doesn’t miss the opportunity to allow one of its most tragic characters learn about what’s going on with other characters she hasn’t seen in a long time, because it is important to her character develpoment. I’m talking about Sansa’s meeting with Jon. A well-written script doesn’t put on of its characters’ development on hold like Jaime’s was in Season 5. A well-written script builds its character from action and reaction, and provides meaningful story by showing how a character solves a conflict or attempts to do it. Having Dany knock over a few fires and then have her standing there, resistant to the flames does not qualify as this. It was repetitive, boring, and most of all self-serving. In fact, the Dothraki-reintroduction served no purpose, other than giving her more men. That’s poor writing. Sorry if this annoys you, but there are principles for constructing a story and DnD were clearly unable to balance this many characters and storylines in a way that all the pieces of the puzzle fit perfectly, and everyone gets to the point by the end of the season where they have to be. For some characters, then episodes is not enough for them to be there, hence their stories are rushed, and for some ten eps is too much, hence nothing meaningful happens to them. I know how hard DnD’s job is, but that doesn’t mean they succeeded in every aspect.
RosanaZugey,
I like Jon, but hatred for Sansa and Dany from his fans for no reason at all is becoming a source of negativity in this fandom.
Are they afraid that Dany and Sansa will usurp Jon’s position in the story?
Wow, he’s really opinionated and I like it! I can see him saying “the wrong thing to the wrong person”, as he says, HA!
mau,
Conflate much?
How, specifically, is it ridiculous, Rosana?
It seems pretty sound to me.
Northop,
And you are a professional scriptwriter? You are just using your opinion as fact and claiming something that has no basis in reality to be truth.
Jaime’s development wasn’t put on hold in S5. His relationship with his children was an important part of his character that was never explored before.
If Sansa and Jon didn’t talk what you wanted them to talk (recap S1-5) it doesn’t mean that the script wasn’t well-written. It means that they didn’t talk about what you wanted them to talk.
If you are claiming to be knowledgeable person in terms of scriptwriting, you would know that an important rule in writing is to avoid having your characters repeat what the audience already knew. That’s why Cat didn’t tell anything to Robb about Renly’s death on screen, why Jaime and Cersei never talked about her imprisonment on screen, why we never saw Tywin’s reaction to Arya’s escape from KL,…
Dee Stark,
Dee when you get round to reading the books you will understand the show runners problem!! Dorne is shit in the books also!! The red viper was the only good thing about the donnish plot but we only see him in Kings landing. George ( correctly) killed him off in the books but his problem was he introduced dorne far too late in the series and how are you supposed to invest in characters when you already have your favourites from four previous novels/series.
I skip dorne when I reread the books now Dave and Dan should have struck by there original thoughts and binned the whole lot. Sorry rant over
I think this is right. I got that feeling watching the scenes..that they were being real careful about how they moved within the space.. if that makes any sense. It was a gorgeous location though.
mau,
Majority of what?
Anon,
Of people.
mau,
What people?
You know, I used to think I was just overly sensitive to criticisms about Sansa, but after reading that Sansa had “nothing” to do with the win, I realize its not me. Its really not me. Jon’s fan make me dislike Jon. They’re so over the top nonsensical, that it’s starting to transfer over on to how I view Jon. They’re like jealous little girls. *Rolls eyes* It’s really just exhausting at this point.
mau,
Yeah, I am quite knowledgable when it comes to writing, thank you. It is my profession after all.
And yes, having a character repeat an info can be meaningful, if it changes the perspective of a character. Robb learning about Renly’s death isn’t that important, but Sansa, who had lived in a bubble in her entire life, finding out that while she has trying to survive two “simple” psychopaths, the Night’s Watch found out that supernatural ice zombies are on their way to kill EVERYONE is kind of a big info. It changes a person’s perspective in a big way. It’s an important moment for her character, but we didn’t see it. It seems like a small detail, but these small details build complex characters. Just like it was important to Stannis’ character when he found out about the same. With this info in his mind, it becomes clear why he would go as far as burning his own daughter: he believed he was the only one who could stop the army of the dead, and he knew he can’t let anything stop him. Get it now? A well-written script chooses the best moments to show, especially when you have little screentime.
Jaime is my favourite character in the books, so I pay even more attention to his portrayal in the show. I have a feeling that DnD don’t always get his character (as opposed to Stannis, for example, whom I think they very much understood). His character changed almost nothing in Season 5, and even though Season 4 did very well in terms of continuing his Season 3 arc, S5 just kinda stopped it, like “hey, we’ll get back to it later, but first we need to do this, because we have to kill this other character and this is the way to do it”. Jaime is very much internally struggling to find out who he is, and what he wants, meanwhile he becomes more and more emotionally distant from Cersei. Or at least that’s his arc in the books and in S4 and S6. In S5, there was none of that, because they wasted him on a ridicoulus rescue mission (where they can just walk into the Water Gardens, because of course, no one guards it)
Hmm… I noticed two weird technical omissions in that storyline:
1. Sansa says “..you said so yourself.” to Ramsay as if she heard him say so..herself.
It’s the “yourself” part that’s weird. It’s something you say when you’re a first person witness. Anyway, as lots of folks have noted, Sansa had ridden off in a huff BEFORE Ramsay talked about his dogs.
2. When Sansa composes the letter to Littlefinger, she pours wax onto the piece of parchment and stamps it with the Stark sigil. Right after, she holds up the letter to read it but no stamp is on the letter…it’s disappeared! Furthermore, that letter was sent by raven, it’s implied. You can’t roll up a scroll with a glob of wax on it to fit into the cannister on a raven’s leg, as far as I know..heh.
There might have been shenanigans in the cutting room…them piecing footage together in a hurry and not having the raw film they need to make things fit together right.. ’cause they didn’t film it. ’cause it wasn’t scripted, or something.
So yeah, I think the two D’s might have punked out. If they did, SHAME!
RosanaZugey,
I’m so sorry that has happened to you.It’s exactly what happened to me with Sansa and Dany.Fans make me dislike them.It really sucks.
No. It’s really, really you. It really is.
BTW, I’m still waiting for an answer on what people are the “majority” you cite.
Jenny,
Join your local chapter of support group for the Butthurt.
Flayed Potatoes,
…and the Emmy goes to …the dogs.
I don’t recall mentioning anything about a “majority”. And don’t worry, I’ll answer. I’m not ignoring you, or afraid to answer you and that ridiculous post. I look forward to it. 🙂
Anon,
Yeah those were weird. Aren’t they supposed to have people who check for these inconsistencies? I think one of the problems is that they have a very small writing staff compared to other shows. If I remember correctly, House of Cards, The Americans and Mr. Robot have at least 6 writers per season (and don’t have nearly the same amount of CGI and post-production work as GoT). If they had more writers to help with the workload maybe someone would have noticed all the details. I don’t know. I think it also helped that GRRM used to look over the scripts.
mau,
Every character has intensely invested fans who may, at times, go a bit overboard. That is hardly unique to Jon, I think. ^^
Furthermore, in Snow’s case, we probably should keep in mind that the last time other characters disagreed with Jon, they did not just argue with or abandon him, they downright murdered him in as callous and self-righteous a way as they could fathom. And Olly, of all people, participated !
So I believe it may explain why some of his fans are a bit sensitive to the idea of any new potential betrayal or conflict emerging, be it from his sister or his aunt. The ghost of “for the watch” is as haunting as it gets…
But hey, Jon is still a great guy so everything is fine !
It is, of course, just my opinion 🙂
Anon,
That was “Mau” with the majority claim. Your Sansa troll hive is confusing me.
Northop
It is not a big info, because that has nothing to do with her plot in S6. And it seems that the WW won’t be a part of the Northern plot in S7 either, maybe just at the end.
Maybe D&D want Bran to be the first person who will speak about WW with Sansa on screen to set that up for S8.
Or maybe, as some believe, Sansa will die in S7 before the WW’s invasion, so that knowledge doesn’t have any meaning for her character.
The point is, you don’t know. It is a matter of taste not quality, because from writing perspective that info was not important for S6.
When we speak about Jaime, I knew that you were one of those people who recognise his development only in his relationship with Cersei. But I think that in S5 the show put Jaime in a “father role”. Something he never did before, so I really can’t see how that was static.
Jaime could just walk in the Water Gardens because obviously there were some limitation on that shooting location. But that fight scene was not important for his development.
Awwwwww. Have you come up with a cute little nickname for us? “Sansa troll hive”, huh? That’s cute. I’ll make shirts.
Anon,
From this planet.
RosanaZugey,
They remind me more and more at “Stannis the Mannis” fans.
mau,
So, I think we can flush that absurd claim you made that “For majority S6 and S4 were the best.” right down the toilet and never speak of it again!
Agreed?
RosanaZugey,
Sure, you can have that one. You can have the “Butthurt” one too.
Flayed Potatoes,
I didn’t watch The Americans, but bigger writing staff didn’t do much for HoC and Mr. Robot.
Mr. Robot S2 had the biggest drop in quality since True detective S2.
Anon,
No, I don’t agree, because I really don’t understand what you don’t understand in that statement.
mau,
You answered my question.
You stated that the majority of people from this planet agree that season 4 and 6 are best.
Anon,
And maybe from some other planets, but for that I can’t guarantee.
mau,
The Americans is really, really good. Solid writing.
I like HoC as well. I haven’t seen season 2 of Mr. Robot yet, so I can only comment on 1.
I just gave examples of some popular shows airing right now, but I’m sure that if I go and google other shows, they’ll have a larger writing staff.
Having more writers would certainly help because of the amount of workload D&D have as producers. Or at least someone to help with continuity and inconsistencies imo.
Flayed Potatoes,
I think what I’m saying is that you know how they script one thing; the director goes on location and films that thing; then when they’re in the cutting room, they get a call from someone saying to change this, or change that? But, by then, they can’t really make what they’ve filmed fit the changes.
I don’t want to cast aspersions on D&D, …who am I kidding, YES I DO! But, maybe they kinda punked out.
Flayed Potatoes,
The problems with continuity and inconsistencies would be solved with more time for writing.
More writers would create just more chaotic situation.
HoC has problems with continuity and inconsistencies. I really don’t know any show that dosen’t. That is inevitable on TV. That is the nature of this form of art.
But as long as those inconsistencies are at “Sansa’s necklace” level I don’t care.
There are many levels at which continuity errors can creep into the TV or film production process. Having more than two people in the writers’ room can help prevent some of them, certainly, as can allowing more time to be spent on script editing. But very often the problems occur in the edit stage, when info that would have sustained the continuity ends up on the cutting-room floor. Ideally a dedicated continuity person is assigned, both to review the scripts and to work with the editors, keeping an eye out for errors throughout the process, since the editors have other priorities such as visual pacing. And even when ‘Continuity’ is somebody’s job title, a few errors nearly always get past them – it’s the nature of the screen beast. But when errors are frequent and obvious, that usually signals underbudgeting or an overly rushed production schedule.
mau,
Well, we’ll see where they’ll take her. But the same info was told to Cersei as well in Season 2, I think, and it spoke a billion words about her personality. And it had nothing to do with her storyline that season. But I don’t want to get bogged down with this one scene, there are plenty of more similar problems. Less energy is put into the character design, and more into action. I mean, who was the Blood Raven? We learnt nothing of his personality. Yeah, sure, he was a minor character, but back in the first seasons, even Syrio Forel and Yoren had personalities, and that’s why fans still love them, and make up theories how Syrio is actually Jaqen, or whatever. Now, many supporting characters are just there, because the plot needs them to be. A similar case is Khal Moro, an absolute no one. These characters will be forgotten soon, because they were papermaches in terms of complexity.
As for Jaime, I don’t see him only in his relationship with Cersei. I actually wrote a quite long stuff about him on the “Give us your thoughts from “No One” through “Battle of the Bastard” post. If you’re interested, I can copy-paste it in here. At least that would be constructive.
Northop,
And you think that Yoren is not forgotten? Ask any casual fan about him, and they won’t know.
I don’t know why you expect from a supporting character to be complex. They are supporting characters after all.
Fans are not making up theories how Syrio is actually Jaqen because Syrio was a complex character, but because GRRM left so many open questions. You have questions after questions for 5 books. I don’t remember any real answer in his books. Only new mysteries. There are theories even about Daario but that doesn’t mean that he is a complex character.
And there were still many memorable roles in the last two seasons that people loved. Lady Crane, Karsi, Wun Wun, Lyanna Mormont,…
Benioff himself actually mentioned this incident.
I agree the Dorne stuff was rushed and subpar compared to other lines of the story. And also that Aero Hotah’s role reminded me of a scene by Cantinflas- the famous Mexican comedian from the mid-XXth Century in a mock Rome and Juliette production: The character complains to the director The script says: Romeo comes out, Romeo remains silent, Romeo goes out. What the hell did you hire me for?”
Even though Doran Martell was my favorite character in Dorne, and I believe Sidding made a good characterization, I was never invested in that plot in the books anyway, mostly because I wanted to “strangle” Arianne for being such a fool. So I brushed the whole thing off rather quickly. I’ll wait for the book to learn about Doran’s plan.
However this particular thing of the tiny dagger… If there was one thing that the floppy Dornish plot established quite well is that the particular Sand Snake who used the dagger against Aero Hotah is very well versed in poisons… So yeah, the dagger could have been tiny but infused with a powerful venom in fantasy land, it could disabled a mammoth.
There was no need to extend this poor plotline. Most of us wanted to know if Jon was dead dead or not.
Serious. Here is google search for “david benioff drunk hand”:
https://www.google.com/#q=david+benioff+drunk+hand
Young Dragon,
Yes the actress with milk of the poppy. Guaranteed to have you doing assassin parkour in 24 hours!
You guys undestand that Arianne will kill Doran in the books so she can mary Aegon VI right?? They don’t have an Aegon and GRRM didn’t tell them until theeu started writing last season, so they were limited.
The Dragon Demands,
You do realize the event happened in game of thrones season WRAP UP PARTY ..
….but now you acknowledged that this “event” did indeed include Benioff getting into a drunken fist fight with Jason Momoa and breaking the bones in both of his hands?
mau,
RosanaZugey,
Thank god iam not the only one…I have been saying this long time ..
I put
Stannis and Jon fans in the same plate..You just have to take a look at the threads at westeros.org back in 2012 and 2013 to know how much vitriol they spread and it happens even to this day ..
Bitter? Angry? My goodness, are you all a bunch of high school girls or what? I didn’t see one instance where he seemed to insinuate such feelings or attitude towards them, he even complimented the crew. I don’t recall fans throwing stones at Ian McEllhinney or Stephen Dillane when he said he didn’t care much for Thrones except that it paid well. Siddig, if his story turns out true, got paid for 3 extra eps without having to do any work for them, so it’s more likely he’s laughing all the way to the bank. And his career seems to be going just fine, I think he’s professional enough to know holding a grudge over something silly like being killed off a show is a bad look. What is unhealthy though is getting your blood pressure up over reading an article where someone from the inside exposes a possible truth that not everything about your favorite show is so squeaky clean and perfect.
The Dragon Demands,
So you are going to tell me that benioff is the only one who gets drunk in a party ..
As fae as I remember they were playing slaps or arm wrestling ..
You make it sound like benioff and Jason have been in a drunken fight ..
And you try to paint D&D as alcoholics who are drunk during their work ..
The Dragon Demands,
I know that.I have seen the interviews.But to go from that to insinuating they have a drinking problem is what’s ridiculous.
dragonbringer,
That happens with the fans of every character though
Darjan,
?
I’m glad we got Dorne in the show, even the way it turned out. I never had any problems seperating characters from their book counterparts in my head. In the show, Dorne was introduced in season 4 with Don Juan suave badass Oberyn and his feisty free spirited woman Ellaria. Then in season 5, we see the aftermath of Oberyns death, we learn that Doran is not a hothead, he’s levelheaded guy, weakened by his gout but considerate and peace-seaking. It was actually a relief that here was a westerosi lord who was willing to break the cycle of revenge in order to save his people. Then of course feisty girlfriend from before snapped that relief away and we’re back to everything going to shit for the good guys. Always seemed very Game of Thrones to me. On bingewatches now I enjoy Dorne and my only complain is that we don’t spend enough time with Doran Martell.
Jenny,
Not really..I never see other fans create at least 3 hate threads in a day where you are going to twist every single thing a character had done and take everything out of context to fix what they try to paint or creating a petition that everyone must hate certain character or how they will not rest until there is no fans to a certain character ..
Just check those threads iam speaking about and you will see what am talking about ..and you yourself will turn like I did ..I started as Jon fan myself and RLJ is what made me go to forums the name I used was Jon rhaegar stark while posting but the level of hate they have for other characters is just too much for me.
dragonbringer,
That depends on where you look though.Go to tumblr and see how much hate Jon gets.I try not to let it get to me.I know of westeros I have seen the threads but they will hate on everything possible.I don’t think they are necessarily Jon fans.I stopped going there a long time ago.My point was that fans will be annoying about their fave character it happens all the time.
WallyFrench,
I already said I had a problem with the chase scene after Arya was stabbed. I don’t have a problem with Arya surviving the stabbing, for the reasons I provided.
Jenny,
I agree with you this happens with every character and fans can be annoying.. I get annoyed myself at most of time… but these two fandoms take it to next level..
I tend to value westeros.org or TWOW more than Facebook tumblr or YouTube or imdb ..and if you go to YouTube or imdb my god that’s such a nightmare…
Jenny,
Let’s play a game ..just keep an eye on any thread related to dany or dothraki or Emilia.. And I will bet you will find ateast one hateful or trolling comment within the first fifteen comments..same goes for sansa and Sophie..thank god cat is dead. The level of hate these three used to get is ridiculous..
And since stannis is dead now compare that with Jon or kit related threads ..
You will see what I mean.
dragonbringer,
Okay I’ll do that but keep in mind they are more controversial characters than Jon.But there is trolling everywhere.And I value westeros.org the least and I have never read a YouTube or IMDb thread I my life.I don’t hate myself that much lol.But there are also rational fans to be found.Jon is my fave but I actually like Dany most of the time.Jon and she meeting is actually my most anticipated scene ever I can’t wait for it to happen.And I have never hated Cat even though she was shitty to Jon.So it can be done haha.
dragonbringer,
Somebody needs to just put together a spreadsheet already so that we can settle this matter once and for all. Twitter collected data for which characters generated the most discussion per episode; I think it’s high time we had the official stats for fan rage. I’m pretty busy with work at the moment, but if somebody wants to formally investigate whose fandom takes the gold in the shit-talking olympics, you have my full support.
In other news, Irish Thrones is tweeting about some extensive filming coming up for the Winterfell storyline. Today they used the word “grueling” to describe the upcoming few weeks. I’m curious to see if any interesting details emerge from those shoots.
I was neither baffled nor angered by this. Having prominent secondary or tertiary characters from the prior season in cameo “farewell” roles at the outset of a seadon has become common. This was no more “rushed” or anything like that than it was in those other shows. (It did seem weird the first time I saw it: but by now we have seen it dozens of times, and it is almost commonplace for shows to have small denouements for the prior season at the outset of a new one.)
Really, the only thing that could have made it more enjoyable would have been if Arriane had appeared and been hacked to bits…..
?
A tremendous waste of acting talent and a tremendous waste of Martin’s wonderful story. I get angrier and angrier at this show every day.
dragonbringer,
I understand always defending/talking positive about Dany because she is your favorite. But you can’t really lump in the people who don’t care for the Dothraki because there is a good argument to be made for them being boring. I mean, have they let us get to know any of them on personal level whatsoever? No. So nameless, personality void of them makes it easy to be bored/not looking forward to their scenes. And as for the three female characters getting hate, it is OK to dislike a fictional character and people have their legit or maybe not so legit seeming to the masses but something that just rubs them wrong way for an unknown reason, and that is OK too. We should respect each others view and just come to terms with it. Jon is like Stannis fan hype used to be? Eh, the Mannis fans were more rabid (I mean that in good way I just have trouble finding correct wording sometimes) but if Jon has more fans than you understand, it is because he is less controversial and has qualities altruistic so of course it stands to reason….
Anon,
I said I’d reply and since I’m trying to be a woman of my word, I’ll reply.
The insinuation behind this entire discussion is that Sansa and the Vale troops are somehow a footnote to Jon’s ‘heroics’. Jon won this battle because he baited Ramsay to come out of Winterfell (which he didn’t) and then his (literal) giant friend beat down a door and he punched Ramsay a bunch of times. And there you have it! Hero Jon saves the day! Isn’t he dreamy with his little man bun? *Heart eyes*
All sarcasm aside, the reason I think it’s a ridiculous argument is because it ignores the story as it was presented, and it’s a blatantly terrible way of trying to rewrite the narrative to minimize the impact and importance of a character they don’t like.
The Vale wasn’t simply ‘useful’, the Vale saved all of their lives. Jon, the wildlings, and the Northmen would have died if the Vale (summoned by Sansa…who had to swallow her pride and go back and beg a man she despises for help) had not shown up. That is a fact. Period. End of discussion. The battle was won the moment the Vale troops showed up. Ramsay knew it (which is why he gave Sansa the look he did), Sansa knew it (which is why she gave Ramsay the look she did), and Jon knew it because he had the freedom to go chasing after Ramsay without fear of getting an arrow through his neck, or a sword through his back. That Wun Wun broke down the door–while awesome–was not the only way they could have entered Winterfell. Ramsay had no more men. The Vale troops could have scaled the wall, or used a couple of those giant Bolton X’s still on the battlefield to break down the doors (if it came to that). Or, you know, Jon could have snuck in through the Winterfell crypts. I mean, “necessity is the mother of all inventions”, so I’m sure a couple of thousand troops could have figured out a way to get into an unarmed castle. And I don’t say any of that to minimize Wun Wun. I’m just pointing out that that him breaking down the gate was convenient for Jon and co., but not impossible to accomplish by other methods.
Also, Jon didn’t bait Ramsay out of Winterfell. Ramsay was going to attack Jon, regardless. If anyone was baiting anyone, it was Ramsay who was baiting Jon. The prime example of this is the letter he sent to Jon demanding Sansa back or else he was going to ride north to rape and flay everyone and their mom’s. Ramsay wanted Jon dead. He has wanted Jon (and Bran and Rickon) dead since season 4 because they were a threat to his hold on the North. Hell, that’s precisely the reason why he sent Locke to the Wall in season 4; to find Bran, Rickon and Jon and kill them all so that there would be no male Stark heir in the North. Jon’s mere EXISTENCE made him a threat to Ramsay, which is why he would have gone after Jon, no matter what. Also, the idea that Ramsay would sit inside Winterfell with a bunch of troops at his gate is inconsistent with HIS character. Ramsay didn’t sit back and wait it out (which is what his father wanted to do) when Stannis was going to attack. He went to Stannis’ camp, set the thing on fire, and then when they showed up outside Winterfell, he opened the gates to go after them. Ramsay doesn’t need to be–nor is he–‘baited’ by anyone. HE does the baiting, not the other way around (which….consequently….was Sansa’s point when she had that conversation with Jon in the tent before the battle).
Look, we all have our favorites. And every single one of us looks at our favorite(s) with nothing but *heart eyes*. And that’s cool. But when those heart eyes start obscuring what’s right in front of your face, or when it causes you to rewrite the story to minimize another character’s importance or impact, that’s just being ridiculous. That’s just being a “hater”. And that’s my issue with that post and with this general attitude that Sansa is some ‘pest’ to Jon’s storyline (or to the narrative in general) and she should just go away or die already. *Rolls eyes* At this point in the story…with 13 episodes left…if a character is still in this story, its because they’re important. And that goes as much for the characters we love as it does for the ones we hate. So, let’s all just acknowledge that and stop trying to rewrite or re interpret the narrative to make our guy/gal the only one who did anything good.
RosanaZugey,
How are people who like Jon Snow over the top nonsensical? What do they say that colors your view of the guy? Do you dislike the character because you can’t stand people who like him but at the same time don’t like your favorite character? I’m trying to understand this cause it’s my nature to be curious regarding the psychology of the human mind, not necessarily wanting to get involved in what might possibly be teenage/young adult emotional reasoning, per say. If you’re referring to other places on the net where this is taking place I’m not familiar with them, but I have not seen what is described going on here. On the other hand, major Sansa fans will defend everything she does somehow and give her full credit for things that really are not hers alone. This doesn’t make me dislike Sansa. That was already the case and they have not persuaded me to like her. I am just one person but here is my estimation as to why some people who love Jon might not like Sansa:
They see Jon as a man of integrity who will tell the truth regardless of personal consequences. Someone who sees a threat to humanity and cares enough to put his own life on the line to lead the way in fending off said threat. He took vows and honored them to the best of his ability, even denying a Lordship which is something he always wanted even as a child, someone who shows compassion and understanding coupled with justice in his dealings with others. Some folks see these qualities as something to honor and look up to. That shouldn’t be too hard to understand though.
I do not hate Sansa but I can’t say I like her. She has no qualities I admire, besides her beauty, and her attitude leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
Aegon Frey,
These are situations already created by George. There is existing material for them to draw on for this dialogue. When it came to Dorne they strayed so far from the books that it was all them, we got a good look at how good these guys really are at writing. They’re not terrible writers, but they’re pretty average, and pale in comparison to George.
Jenny,
The writing gets translated, I’m not talking of dialogue word for word, rather a modernised way of expressing it. Also something to keep in mind is the writing also includes the plot, not just the dialogue.
Northop,
It seems like a small detail, but these small details build complex characters.
Exactly. If anyone can attest to this it’s a writer, backing up how many of us in the audience felt that lack of follow-up as well.
Northop,
As a writer yourself, what reasoning can you see for them having omitted some of these key aspects from the script? Particularly with the Jon/Sansa conversation (Or rather lack of?) Thanks!
Jack Bauer 24,
Remember: No feeding the trolls 😉
Dee Stark,
You´re talking,sister! The Martells and all the Sand Snakes were quite detestable in the books,as well!
Lord Parramandas,
I hated that book…if you skip it and go directly to ADWD you miss nothing
RosanaZugey,
And there you have it! Hero Jon saves the day! Isn’t he dreamy with his little man bun? *Heart eyes*
Were you one of the posters who sounded off in this thread about supposed hatred you felt people having towards Sansa? Well, what does your quote above show? If not hostility then what is it? Gentle mocking? The way I see it, those who have criticized Sansa have tried to explain in factual terms just what it is they are critical of, whereas her defenders, such as yourself, appear to have some barely concealed hostility towards those same people’s favorite character(s). Double standards showing? I don’t know. Alas, if you can’t bear a poster putting down Sansa, why do you yourself stoop to showing antagonism towards Jon? What will that accomplish aside from fueling alienation and negativity between the two “sides”?
Lord Parramandas,
I´m curious for two things: what sort of trouble and where are you from? Ps.I adore LOST as well 🙂
RosanaZugey,
All sarcasm aside, the reason I think it’s a ridiculous argument is because it ignores the story as it was presented, and it’s a blatantly terrible way of trying to rewrite the narrative to minimize the impact and importance of a character they don’t like.
Wouldn’t let me edit previous thread so to continue…. I just need to state how your conclusion of why people see things differently regarding this aspect of the story is imo inaccurate. Maybe I’m wrong but I would assume that most people don’t watch the show with the thought of trying to rewrite a narrative in order to fit it into some preconceived notion they have. We go with the flow and feelings change depending on where the story takes us right? When the Jon/Sansa reunion took place we were all very happy for them both, on board with the siblings working together and kicking butt when the time came. Nobody that I saw hated Sansa at the beginning of the season. We had high hopes for her. Not liking her attitude that developed, the withholding of crucial information, the arrogance when it came to Davos, the smug imperceptible smile as she sat atop horse (did she care if her brother was dead or alive?), the snotty way she got with Jon at the war council. These things all colored our view of her, and rightly so! Yes, she accepted LF’s offer of Vale forces but do you not understand that when she did, it was only to be expected? It’s only what anybody in that situation would have done! It was nothing outstanding. But the way she went about it is not the way most sisters would have imo. So the way in which something is done, matters. If someone asks you for a favor and you smile & say “Sure, no problem” that shows you are sincere. But if you slightly frown and quietly say “Oh alright” that would make someone question your underlying intention, no?
AlexG,
Why is he/she a troll? *scratches head*
I met him and sat with him for a few beers at Paige’s bar in London (Trek pub) years ago (99 I think).
Lovely bloke!
still got 2 cast-signed original DS9 set scripts I won there that night in a charity auction.
told me some VERY funny stories re some of his colleagues after he had downed a few pints!! LOL 🙂
sadly not repeatable here…..
ygritte,
Oh lol! I didn´t mean Jack Bauer was one…I meant that if he argues with one they won´t go away ever,just because they like arguing for the sake of arguing 😉
AlexG,
Yep Lol Jack is like one of the first people I saw posting a lot when first joining the board back in the day 🙂
RosanaZugey,
I see you are referencing one of my comments. I never said the Vale did nothing in the battle. I only defended Jon from the claim that he didn’t do anything to defend Ramsay and I used scenes we saw on the show as proof. Please don’t twist my words. I don’t need to bring down other characters or be hostile to them and mock their fans (which is what you are doing now) in order to defend a character I like.
—
And regarding the Stannis/Cat comparisons and comments (forgot who mentioned them): I hate Stannis and like Cat, so joke’s on you.
ygritte,
Seriously! I was so hyped for that reunion and then it was disappointing and infuriating. I don’t think pitting Sansa against a fan favorite like Jon is doing her character any favors. It makes sense in the books for Jon to be in the dark about the Vale because Sansa is nowhere near the North and they won’t be meeting before they take out the Boltons, but on the show it really doesn’t and it reflects poorly on Sansa.
RosanaZugey,
He/she was only responding to the criticism that Jon did nothing to defeat Ramsay. I don’t think this necessarily was an example of Jon hyper fans hating on other characters.
The thing is, the show has pitted Jon against Sansa. Since then each of their fans have tried to defend their fave by focusing on the mistakes of the other.
You have noticed the criticisms of Sansa where as I have noticed Sansa fans go on and on about the mistakes that Jon did while refusing to acknowledge Sansa’s. He has been called a failed commander, shit commander who was only saved by his smart sister.
Anyway, there are fans of all characters who can be irritating. I don’t let it affect me too much though.
elybe,
Interesting. They use the word grueling, surprising since I doubt there will be much action oriented scenes there. Since this week’s filming seems to have been focused on the godswood, I guess shooting has yet to start at the Winterfell location.
I am so ready for a juicy spoiler regarding the north, lol.
I’m from Slovenia if you want to know. As for the trouble in LFU, it’s pretty long story.(I will only use first names for privacy reasons).
First of all, LFU was everything I could hope for and more. I’ve never seen a fansite which would be so positive, so joyfull, so friendly (sorry WOTW, but not even this site). The group had over 3700 members and the number grew every day. But then in later days, more and more non-LOST related posts started to appear, which unintentionally caused some unpleasant comments. One of those posts got deleted by an admin and it caused the chain of events.
The most active admin, Ted, who was also the recruiter, opposed the deleting of that post. Then two other admins, Monica and Anne, had some sort of (private) quarrel which resulted in Anne leaving the group after proclaiming Monica a bully. After that happened, one of the users (not an admin), Laura, also accused Monica of being rude and asked cheif administrator to remove her from admin position. Then Ted violated the rule and publicly demanded that Monica should be BANNED from the group, saying many bad things about her (something that he should have done in private). He also put an ultimatum, that if she is not banished, he will resign. (This was all a surprise to me, because I never had problems with Monica).
Jonas, the chief admin who was away because her mother had cancer, returned to the group and temporarily removed everyone’s admin rights. The (former) 5 admins supposedly had a private talk and all 4 admins voted against Ted, which resulted in him being permanently banished from the group.
Ted supposedly sent many active members a private message, how he was wronged and how the admins took his life away from him. Some users were outraged and immediately left the group, not even waiting for admins’ explanation and their side of the story. One of the users, Sam, created a new group and invited Ted into it and people followed them like sheep. Sam was soon banned from LFU because she repeatedly posted that people should leave LFU and join her new group. The same happened to those who continued the same thing.
The chief admin posted a public explanation that Ted has been very problematic in those last days and when he publicly slandered one of the admins and threatened to resign, they had no choice but to ban him. She also deleted all the posts about the past quarrel and made, that all new posts would have to be confirmed by admin for a couple days, in order for things to calm down. She also encouraged people to feel free to join the new group, or stay in both groups, and that nobody would be banned for posting links to the new group, as long as they do not slander LFU or try to convince people to leave it. The group has moved on, she said, and left the conflict behind.
Some of the users believed but many did not. Several called Jonas a liar and left the group in anger. Ted started to slander LFU in the new group, calling the admins power-hungry dictators who banished him for no reason and more and more people believed him, leaving LFU in numbers. I personally had no problems with LFU and many good memories about it so I remained there, but partialy believed Ted and also joined his new group.
Imagine, one day everyone is friendly in the group and when I wake up the next day, I see the same people, those kind and friendly members I often used to discuss things with, posting vile things about other people and leaving the group in numbers, refusing to even listen to admins’ explanation. Even worse, a couple days later, I learned that prior to this, Ted was banned from many LOST groups and that indicated that he was the one, who was lying and so many people blindly followed him. One day, I decided to leave the new group and only remain in LFU. I became WAY more active than before.
Today, LFU is fine again. We lost many old members but also got many new ones. The site is active and friendly again and I have a trust in admins. I spoke to Monica about the minor quarrels which caused the chain of events and the split-up and she said, that they originated from the fact, that some people were not able to accept others’ opinions. The bickering we do in WOTW is nothing compared to what happened in LFU that day.
This was interesting ’cause I had wondered about actors and schedules:
” Anyway, it was one of those things. But I know that, from an actor’s point of view, professionally you don’t want to be on a show like that for too long, unless you are one of the top leads who originated the show, because your schedule gets kind of messed up. You don’t earn as much as you would if you were doing another show, because they’re Game of Thrones, and they don’t have to pay anyone. So it’s kind of a blessing in disguise. I just moved away, and being on it at all sticks, and everyone goes, “Oh, the guy from Game of Thrones!” It doesn’t really matter that you weren’t on it very long.”
Even veteran actors find advantage in being on the show. Natalie Dormer even preempted D&D this season because her ‘visibility’ has gotten her tier A demand which caused problems with scheduling , Margaery Tyrell maybe alive by the end of the books.
It interesting that Dorne was injected back into the plot at the end of season 6 , it runs … low ebb… to the end of season 8?
One notes Dorne is , for now, a definite plot element in the books, which Geroge will resolve somehow?
I would guess that as the reality that the show was going to pass the books was confronted circa 2013, the original plan was to continue pursuing the Iron Islands and leave Dorne to one side. But when Oberyn went down so well in season four, a subplot involving revenge for his death in season five began to look like a good idea, particularly since the people of Dorne had been shown to be dark, sultry, seductive and sexually liberated — manna from heaven from the showrunners’ perspective. But because this change of course happened late in the day, they didn’t have time to think it all through, hence the rushed, muddled and unsatisfactory quality of the Dorne plot in season five.
But Dorne is still part of the show. The strange placement of the deaths of Trystane and Doran doesn’t mean that the show was trying to “course-correct” itself by pretending that Dorne never existed. Dorne’s role in the “greater story” is to side with Dany against the Lannisters, and that’s what they’re doing.
I do believe that the structure of the Dornish storyline is somewhat odd, but otherwise I’m ok with it. It’s not my favourite storyline, but it’s not meant to be. Dorne was a very small part of season 5 (and despiste the heavy anticipation and the out-of-place promotion it got, it was just a backdrop for Jaime’s storyline),and a tiny bit of Season 6, seting up next season. I don’t get why fans like to criticise it like if it was an abomination.
Was it necessary to send Jaime to Dorne? Maybe not, but I would say it was the best option. They needed to develop Jaime’s humanity, and his link with Myrcella was a good way to do so. He had to be absent from King’s Landing. It wasn’t wise to send him to the Riverlands before season 6, when that location becomes active once again (and there’s a change to have him interact with Brienne).
On the other hand, Dorne had been heavily anticipated in the show. Oberyn was a very important character in season 4. Dorne had to enter the war on Dany’s side in the future, and there were several things that had to be resolved there: Myrcella had to be killed (before Tommen). Dorne had to turn against the Lannisters, and (following the idea of the books), Oberyn’s death was meant to be the motive.
So the Dornish storyline needed someone wanting peace with the Lannisters and someone wanting war against the Lannisters. Nothing more, considering it is not meant to be an independent storyline, but a part of Jaime’s storyline. Ellaria was already an established character. The other character had to be Doran, of course (he had been mentioned as the Prince of Dorne). One of them had to be pro-War and the other one against-War. Arianne and Quentyn’s plots don’t go anywhere and are not needed.
And therefore, the character’s roles are reversed, because they make more sense that way: Doran appears to be against-war in the books, so the show makes him ACTUALLY against-war. Ellaria can easily assume the role of the pro-war leader, as is consistent with her characterization. (and the Sand-Snakes are just background supposedly-cool figures, nothing more. they’re not even characters on their own, nor in the books or the show).
Sergei Walankov,
So the writer’s idea was to forget about Myrcella?
I know the idea to send Jaime to Dorne came around after season 4, but don’t believe that D&D have absolutely everything planned since the beginning of the series. They know the overall storyline (and Dorne has a place in that story, supporting Dany against the Lannisters), but they make specific decissions regarding which storylines are featured in each season while writing that season.
So don’t use the idea of “Dorne was a late idea” to either criticise or justify it.
Dee Stark,
You probably would have cared if he was allowed to develop his character like he was in the book. Much more complex and interesting. Really was a great waste of talent. Wish they just got rid of the SS and kept Elaria and Doran in conflict Have Elaria show how much his is disliked in his kingdom (something I just didn’t buy)
The other cut I wondered about was the actress who played the original Marcella. Why replace her if they are just going to kill her off in a few episodes? Never really got a chance to see what was that different about the new version, and why they needed to make the switch.
ash,
Because the first “actress” was just a stand-in that was hired for season 1, which got a few lines in season 2. They just wanted to hire an actor for a role that was more significant.
ash,
The first one was just an extra, the same as Tommen.
ash,
Hmm no I don’t think so. Book and show are separate. Hes a minor character anyway.
mau,
I agree, and im a major Jon fangirl. hahaha
Molestown bastard,
thanks for the explanation 🙂 I get you!
This thread reminds me why I said I would be here less for season 7… so negative, and lots of people thinking they know better than the producers of the show. I’m all for having different opinions but some comments make out like the poster could do a better job hahahahahaha thank God that’s not the case 🙂
Considering the number of lines Nell Tiger Free got she was just an extra!
Boojam,
I love her name! hahaha
Dee Stark,
It used to upset me the negativity of some people here… now I prefer a more “Cersei-esque” approach: watching the thread go down in flames while sipping a glass of wine.
😉
Sergei Walankov,
I think what you say is true … it is still odd , going into season 5 , with now a lot of experience under their belts it seems like they wrote Dorne in and then in production lost interest in it (this has an analog in S2 with Quarth ). Why they contracted Siddig for four episodes , and payed him for those, seems like D&D changed their minds at the last second before production , I wonder how many episodes all the other main Dorne characters contracted for?
Apparently they planed better for Ian McElhinney … tho even at this late date Selmy’s character would be plot relevant , as it is in the books, as it is in Winds of Winter… that show outcome still seems klunky.
A Dornish Tyrell,
LOOL
I love your response 🙂
I could try that also. But “know-it-alls” really annoy me 😛
My reviews will still be here. I agree that this thread has become way too negative but when it comes to Dorne, you can hardly expect any different. And when the show is nearing its end, the reaction is always polarizing. I hope the thing will get better…
Lord Parramandas,
I know 🙂
The thing I hate the most about Dorne is that there was so much filler that could have been cut in order to flesh Dorne out and make it less of a crapshow. The scenes between Tyrion/Grey Worm/Missandei, for example. I get that they wanted to cut their losses and forget about Dorne, but as it stood, Doran and Areo were literally extras.
If Dave and Dan did indeed decide to cut out Dorne because of a loud vocal minority, than that was very cowardly of them. I wonder how they felt about doing that after they swept in the Emmys for season 5? As if it wasn’t enough that the season 5 had ridiculously high viewership and near perfect ratings.
You have real evidence Bryan Cogman did this? Because I doubt it.
Dee Stark,
I cannot take this bickering seriously anymore. Especially not anything considering The Dragon Demands. Now I know I have to avoid any Dorne-related posts in the future. It’s a shame if the site becomes so negative… I really enjoyed it here last year
I haven’t read all the comments, so, sorry if I’m reiterating something that’s been done to death already.
I can easily concur with Siddig’s view that something changed between seasons 5 and 6. That’s not something extraordinary. I can think of Gendry still rowing and Yara vowing to rescue her baby bro at the end of S3, then the damp squib in S4 and sitting out S5, for instance.
I’ve heard that D&D didn’t even want to do Dorne but B-Cog convinced them, as something for Jaime to do while he was in a holding pattern re. the KL storyline (and B-Cog the geek probably just wanted to go to Dorne to see it 😀 )
I think the show’s mostly great but I agree with so many others that Dorne just hasn’t been up to the general high standard. So far, most of the Dorne storyline hasn’t made much sense in the show, though I’ve enjoyed the amazing locations and sets.
I’m a book reader, so I’ll put the rest in spoilers, for Dee and others who don’t want to be book-spoiled.
However, the sand snakes have been sent on missions (Obara to hunt down Gerold Dayne with Areo Hotah and Ser Balon Swann, Nym as the Dornish rep in the Small Council and Tyene to deal with the High Sparrow/religion. Obara could be important in Oldtown in the show but I have trouble seeing Nym’s and Tyene’s roles because the Small Council and the High Sparrow are already gone.
However, regardless of what happens with Doran/Arianne/YG in the books, one or more of these three sand snakes might have a bearing on storylines that the show is keeping. I don’t see how (I haven’t read TWOW yet) but D&D know more than we do. Personally, I think Sarella/Alleras might be important as well, but she’s not in the show, at least not yet. Maybe show-Sam will meet her… Oh, an opportunity for a “love triangle”! Alleras/Sarella – Sam – Gilly… (Not that I’d want that to happen, this isn’t a soap opera!)
This frighteningly points to the conclusion that the sand snakes are more important to the end game than Doran or Arianne, since they’re the only element of the Dorne storyline D&D kept – after they decided to do Dorne at all. Or maybe they just want to keep the Spice snakes with boobies and bad poosies. Book sand snakes are slightly more nuanced than their cardboard show counterparts.
I really don’t know where the Dorne storyline can go in the show. It isn’t really even a storyline, just a collection of supporting characters waiting for something to do. I hope they do something important.
Yes, and I can understand why Siddig’s a bit pissed off. He was probably expecting a juicier role, time to develop the character etc. instead of being so summarily executed in ep1 though he’d been contracted for 4 eps. So something definitely changed between seasons.
I haven’t seen Siddig in anything else, but for me, he was a great Doran. Seemingly “weak” and “pacificst” but there was such quiet determination and steel behind those eyes. Almost chilling… Only to be sillily stabbed in S6E1. (groan!)
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Has it occurred to you that maybe they themselves weren’t satisfied with how the Dorne storyline turned out?
talvikorppi,
Maybe he filmed those episodes for when Bran goes back in time to reset the timeline after the Others destroy Westeros.
Lord Parramandas,
Well,I´m sorry that you got involved in that nasty issue but it´s great that everything turned fine at the end…I don´t know why people forget these sites are meant to have fun discussing topics that you enjoy 🙁 ps.Never been to Slovenia and I´ve been told Ljubljana is beautiful
talvikorppi,
I think that the role of the Sand Snakes (including Ellaria) is to be a weak link in Dany’s forces. Dany has been overpowered – not that I mind it, but if she took Kings Landing without problems, the story would wrap up in 3 episodes, not in 13. Hence, Dany has to be defeated by Cersey and Euron and in a believable way which implies that she has to have some problems in her camp. And the Sand Snakes are the only potential source of problems: Tyrion is too wise, the Unsulled are too devoted, the Dothraki follow the strong and won’t forsake Dany as long as she will be winning, and Ollena is interested in Cersey’s demise even more than Dany herself and she is the most experienced game player of them all, so she can make no silly mistakes. Meanwhile, the Sandsnakes are just right: they are overconfident and narrowminded, they quarrel between themselves etc. So, annoying as they are, they have to be in Dany’s camp just as Littlefinger has to be in Jon’s camp. It’s GoT.
Young Dragon,
It was fine, there wasn’t anything wrong with it. The criticism of it is so overblown it’s sickening. OK we get it, you’re butt hurt that it wasn’t exactly like the books. But don’t pretend like you can actually view it and judge its quality through an unbiased lens.
Pancho Sansa,
You have one of the best nicknames EVAH!!! ?
ygritte,
I don’t really know. I guess it’s because the story became very dense lately, but the running time stayed the same. Back in Season 2, for example, they had 10 episodes, like four major storyline, X amount of shocking events, and they had to figure put how to fill the rest of it with interesting material. This lead to the invention of scenes like Joffrey abusing Tyrion’s whores, Tyrion and Bronn discussing the defense of the city in a very entertaining scene (ep8) and so on. Now, the amount of shocking events is 5X, and also the budget is insanely high, which means more pressure on them to deliver the ratings. Lately, the amount of story exceeded their running time, which is why they need to jam in everything. This is why Sam had three scene this season, why Theon was only there for like five-five minutes every second episode, why Tyrion disappeared in the second half of the season for two eps, why Ramsay wasn’t even shown after killing Osha until BoB, and so on. The problem with these is, that the story momentum gets lost. Just like they kept Joffrey on screen before his death in the previous episodes (see him talking with Jaime in S4E1) to remind us of why he needs to go, they should’ve kept Ramsay onscreen as well. Instead, he disappeared. And when a character disappears in a busy story like this, he doesn’t feel important. But they simply don’t have the running time to show him. This is why Sansa/Jon reunion was so short, because the episode was too long anyway. Another reason could be, that they were so focused on trying to figure out how much screentime to give to who and to which storyline, that everything that wasn’t immediately important was forgotten about. And Sansa learning about the White Walkers probably didn’t seem like immediately important during her revenge mission against Ramsay.
Oh YES! Got to love a brilliant Spoonerism.
mau,
I didn’t say complex as is I expected him to be a character straight out of a Tolstoy book, but rather memorable. They lacked any style, character, anything unique that makes every person different. A sidecharacter is there to enrigh the story or to provide info, but in either case, the character has to be more than a puppet. Khal Moro was a one-dimensional nobody. Or what about Rickon? His death lacked real emotional weight because he was just a walking plotpoint. For me, who’s been excited to see how Martin would use him in the future, it was shocking that the show just killed him off, but he won’t be missed. Because, who would I miss? Who was Rickon? A brave but introverted boy? An immature and angry person? Was he funny? Curious? Dumb? Did he have PTSD from the many terrors he endured? Nothing is known about him.
But clearly you won’t accept any criticism, maybe you really think it’s good storytelling to waste four eps on Dany going back to the Dothraki and doing nothing new, that would further enrich her character, getting saved by convenient fire resistance, and ending up with more men than before, because the plot needs that. Or maybe the expensive spectacle and many shocking turns cast a spell on you. In either case, I don’t want to convince you if you don’t try to look at something from any other perspective than yours. I mean, what purpose does the fanbase serve if not blindly accepting anything the show offers?
That was a pretty funny bit of snark there. You’ve heard of ‘one-upsmanship’? When people get into long squabbles about whose favorite character is the most persecuted in the fandom, I think of it as ‘one-downsmanship.’ What’s the point, really? Why so emotionally invested? After a while it starts to remind me of that Monty Python sketch that goes something like: ‘You grew up in a shack? I grew up in a cardboard box.’ ‘Well, I grew up in a hole in the road.” ‘At least you had a hole…’ et cetera.
Yes, we all perceive things differently. I am ‘confident’ that how something feels or appears to me is how it feels or appears TO ME. Others may disagree. You do the same – for example, taking the position (as a non-book-reader) that Doran is an expendable character who will not be missed. Others may disagree.
Lord Parramandas,
Cheers Lord P! We are from the same country! (Once upon a time, that is. Not so much these days. 😉 )
Firannion,
“One-downsmanship” is spot on. That was actually one of my favorite games back when I was doing Improv. It’s fun to play the “Which of your faves do D&D secretly hate the most” edition as well. The only drawback is that Bran fans always win.
Dee Stark,
So you can’t do anything other than gush about how amazing everything is on the show? You know you can criticize something but still love it.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
My hatred of the Dorne storyline has nothing to do with the books, where Dorne was just as bad. Dorne simply didn’t work in either medium, and I’m glad the showrunners decided to scrap it.
WallyFrench,
If I speak for myself, I was really hyped for season 6 because of people being POSITIVE on this site during the off-season. Maybe I’m wrong but I really don’t remember people being so negative and harsh in previous off-season as they are now. Or if they were, they were “dismissed” or ignored, definitely not supported.
Do not understand me wrong. I do not oppose criticism but when the criticism and negative things become the main focus, the site itself does not feel as a FANsite anymore and to me, people seem like that they are forcing themselves to watch the series, only to get disappointed on every turn. It really makes me uncomfortable on the site. Now when someone confronts very negative person, that someone is proclaimed a bully or a person who cannot accept different opinion. I really DO NOT remember anyting like that from previous year. Maybe using a slightly nicer tone would help, so that I (and possibly some more others) feel that people still respect the show.
I mean no harm with this post and I’m sorry if I sound too harsh.
Lord Parramandas,
Not at all was that too harsh. I appreciate not wanting to see negativity. But any thread on Dorne is going to the dark side. 🙂
WallyFrench,
Yes, I’m well aware of that. Now I know I have to avoid Dorne articles in the future.
Season six was fun. It certainly wasn’t better. The writing has been on the ropes since season 4 (season 5 being the worst). The difference with season six is that it was a season past caring about rhyme or reason. It was a season of spectacle and predictable Hollywood moments.
Game of Thrones deserved many emmys for the first three seasons, and whilst there is still a lot of good about the show, the overall quality has been severely lowered by illogical plots, predictability, formulaic dialogue, and sometimes embarrassingly bad writing.
I think you’re right though. I do think particularly Sansa’s storyline was altered to appease the petty, stupid social justice censors. But no. It certainly wasn’t improved. She was turned into a two dimensional caricature and led into a totally unbelievable relationship with Jon.
This thread reminds me why I hate Dorne.
The fandom went far, far to crazy over a >10 minutes, 4 chapters, storyline.
Dorne is just bad everywhere, filled with idiotic characters as the Sand Snakes and Arianne, who in my opinion, are just beyond poorly written.
And then the stupid amount of waiting for new books, gave birth to more stupid ”theories” such as Dorans ”master plan”, this ”master” plan consists of him abandoning his initial plan because his wife and then proceeds to do absolutely nothing for 17 years, and gets a 2nd chance of doing the same thing again, out of pure luck, when Dany appears.
Poor Quentyn is the only normal character there, but he is also a cliche-ridden mess, not a bad character overall though, but not worthy of being a POV character, just a waste of paper.
I know this is an unpopular opinion around here, but “bad pussy” was a good line. Audacious, aggressively sexy, and campy…in other words, everything the Sand Snakes should be, IMO.
Also, by all accounts, XMO:W had little of Benioff’s DNA in it by the time shooting commenced. His involvement with the project ended with the early drafts. Read 25th hour if you have doubts about Benioff’s skill as a writer.
King in the North Carolina,
And I thought the ”you have no cock” line was also good. It was the kind of dry humour you have with really close friends.
Reminded me on how I used to joke with my brothers.
Northop,
Just want to say I like your style and have enjoyed reading your points of view 🙂
nvm
mau,
A source of negativity is from the people who complain about those who don’t see Sansa or Dany in a totally positive light like they do. And for instance, Dany is not even part of Jon’s story line and never had been so why even associate “Jon fans” with being the Dany-haters as if they are competing? And I think the character and actions of Sansa would resonate with people regardless of which Stark sibling she’d have been paired with in S6. I think it is what this plot was meant to do, make us choose sides. The people who had already found their hero in Jon or heroine in Sansa were not going to have their minds/loyalties changed by the events of this past season.
It’s interesting that it was even brought up in a topic about Alexander Siddig 🙂
The Siddig story is getting oh so twisted by clickbait reporting. His actual words were pretty mild. That seems to have turned into “actor trashes showrunners, HBO” in a few short days. Makes me so depressed with the state of the world.
Anyway, it doesn’t take much effort to understand what happened; Dorne was not successful. So Dorne’s storyline got cut back. The show had the choice to invest the time and energy to try to fix Dorne, but decided not to. So Doran Martell died early.
Damn, Doran!
A Dornish Tyrell,
noo, now it ends