The Watchers on the Wall Awards, celebrating the best of Game of Thrones season 4, took place tonight on a live podcast hosted by our friends at Game of Owns.
The winners list:
Funniest Quote– “What the fuck’s a Lommy?” – The Hound
Best All-Around Quote– “You raped her! You murdered her! You killed her children!” – Oberyn Martell
Best Guest Actor– Jack Gleeson as Joffrey Baratheon
Best Guest Actress– Kate Dickie as Lysa Arryn
Best Dramatic Scene– Oberyn visits Tyrion’s cell, and the Imps finds a champion
Best Action Scene– Castle Black courtyard fighting in the Battle, captured with 360 degree long shot
Best Visual Effects Scene– The giants and a mammoth attack the gate at the Wall
Funniest Scene– Arya and the Hound talk Lommies and the naming of swords.
Best Death Scene – Oberyn Martell
Best Supporting Actress – Natalie Dormer as Margaery Tyrell
Best Supporting Actor– Pedro Pascal as Oberyn Martell
Best Actor – Rory McCann as The Hound
Best Actress – Sophie Turner as Sansa Stark
Best Season 4 Episode – S4E9 The Watchers on the Wall
The complete polling results are as follows:
Had a blast with the WotW crew and GOO! Hope we get to do it again
Wow not sure I voted for any of the winners ( no offense intended)!
Wow – “Lommy” looks like the big winner.
Sophie Turner won?!?! YESSSSSSSSSS!!!
okay Emilia getting only 3.87% is just fucking brutal, she doesn’t deserve that.
It’s a pleasant surprise that Rory McCann won. I voted for Peter Dinklage but can’t say I’m disappointed with the final result. I went back and forth between the true.
And yay for Sophie Turner! I’m glad people are recognizing her work. I think out of all the main characters Sansa would be the hardest to play because she can never verbally express her true feelings and opinions. She has to convey it all through body language and facial expressions.
I’m sure a pure unsullied pole would have Dany and Sansa’s places flipped. My unsullied friends really dislike Sansa and love Daenerys
Sooo happy for Sophie! I voted for her. I really think she showed her growth as an actress in Season 4. I know she is not yet at par with Diana or Lena, but I think she deserves to win a fan award at least. Also thrilled for queen Kate Dickie and Jack.
aurane waters,
Lol. I was also shocked by this. As far as I know she has a lot of young/online/ social media fans which can rival Sophie/Maisie’s. But in all honesty her acting is deteriorating. I thought Emilia showed a lot of potential in Season 1 but got worse and unbearable throughout the seasons.
How come Kit Harington had more votes than Nikolaj? Heresy, heresy I say!
It was fun. It’s nice to see the winners at last. Hope you do this again next season 🙂
Although I didn’t vote for Sophie, I don’t believe there was a wrong decision, and she definitely earned it.
aurane waters,
And what about Carice and Nikolaj coming in last place? Now THAT is blasphemy.
The Lannister vote committed elsewhere.
Wow! Sophie finally got the recognition she deserves! I thought most people voted for Maisie because they liked the character the most but of course this isnt the other site anymore. Those first 3 having by far the most votes is well deserved though.
I agree with most of the awards. I noticed quite a few were REALLY close. Wow!
Can’t grumble too much about any of the winners. Wouldn’t have had Sophie Turner win myself but don’t think it was a particularly strong category this year.
Morgoth,
This wasn’t the best material for NCW, certainly not as strong as last years. He was more of a supporting character in Tyrion’s storyline, and some of his material was the most criticized (sept scene, rushed rescue of Tyriin). Not his fault but just not the best material.
Whereas this was a big year for Jon Snow/Kit Harington, tansitioning into a leader of the Night’s Watch. I’m actually a little happy that Harington, who is often underappreciated, got more votes than Jaime, who’s a flashier character.
Morgoth,
Because Nikolaj’s acting took a huge downslide this season, seriously compare his acting from the Season 3 bathtub scene to any of his acting in Season 4. There is an appalling amount of difference-and NOT in a good way at all.
Glad Sophie won. I would never have voted for hher in previous years, but that had more to do with having such a minor role beforehand. She was really compelling this year and deserves the win.
Pleasently surprised the cell scene won. I know people like that scene but it wasn’t necessarily the obvious choice. I think I regretted not voting for it almost immediately.
Love Dormer but wish it had gone to Rose. Ygritte wasn’t on screen as much as Margaery but it was mire significant, and Dormer will have future opportunities. Tyrion was also snubbed in both the best actor category and the quotes. This was his year to win and I can’t help but feel he was a little overlooked here. Oh well, he’s always got that Emmy to comfort him.
Hodor Targaryen,
I think Peter Dinklage’s Emmy recognition is the reason some people don’t vote for him. I’ve always viewed these awards as opportunities to honor outstanding performances, scenes, and special effects that are mostly overlooked.
I hope you told the winning actors via twitter the results.
Would be awesome to get a statement or two from the happy winners 🙂
I still cannot understand for the life of me how the hell Jack Gleeson is counted as a “Guest Actor”, when he has been with the show since the very beginning…but whatever…
I am happier to have finally seen my two favourite shows, “Game Of Thrones” and “The Walking Dead” cross over in a manner of speaking! It happened with the guest role, albeit a small one, by one of our future Sand Snakes, Keshia Castle-Hughes in the Season 5, Ep. 4 of “The Walking Dead”…soo awesome! Yay!
Other than that, I guess congratulations are in order for all the winners, good to see some of the candidates I voted for amongst their ranks!
So glad that Rory got some well deserved recognition at long last.
Young Dragon,
Good point. And McCann was great, especially in his last scene, so I really shouldn’t complain.
I am not too worried that Kit didn’t get recognised that much despite having had a great season. He had some stiff competition and his season 5 arc will be great, I think. He is currently getting a lot of good reviews for Testament of Youth, which is showing at film festivals. Critics especially note that his performance is refreshing because he doesn’t brood like he has to for Jon Snow. And I agree that the few votes for Emilia is brutal. However, not that many people who frequent this site like her or her character in the books, so I’m not surprised.
I’m fine with every winner except for all the “funniest” awards for the chickens. It was maybe the best fight scene in the show to date and a good dramatic scene but it isn’t particulary funny IMO.
aurane waters,
I disagree completely: NCW did not have one bad acted scene in season 4 (apart from the one that had nothing to do with acting) while he did not have as good material as the bathtub confession. However, I would suggest to rewatch his conversation with Tyrion in episode 3 and Jamie’s facial expressions during Tyrions trial to change your position.
So are we still playing with the idea of sending physical awards of some sorts to the actors who won? If so, my offer of donating to that (if we can do it with credit card) still stands.
I love her character in the books, but I don’t see what that has to do with her performance.
I also don’t see how getting less than 4% is “brutal”. It’s not like people voted to tell her “You suck! ” They simply preferred other candidates.
Funniest Scene- Arya and the Hound talk Lommies and the naming of swords.
I voted for that of the 5 choices, but I found the “Greatest living swordsman killed by Meryn fucking Trant?” scene far funnier TBH, I don’t know how that didn’t make the cut!
Great to see Rory and Sophie win but tough on the others who were also excellent, a very good season allround – unless you are a diehard book fan in which case it clearly all sucked ass.
Sophie actually won?! YEEES!!! Well deserved for her acting over the years, all culminating in that scene with the Vale’s nobility.
Overall there were not many surprizes, especially looking at the percentages and how close some of the favourites were. The only one I personally find hard to swallow is Jaime’s hand wave missing out on the award, since in my opinion it was the only pure comedy moment.
Oh, and here my Awards of the Awards Ceremony:
– Funniest Quote: “Give it up for the hand”
– Best Dramatic Scene: Zackiser Thorne rallying the troops
– Best Death Scene: Oz untimely passing away in the middle of the show
Dragonslayer,
This! Nikolaj was great as always and had several great moments. He continues to nail the character’s charisma and ambiguity.
Saying “he had no scene like the bathtub scene in s4 therefore his acting was worse” would be like saying that “Michelle Fairley wasn’t as good in s1 or s2 because there was no RW there”. s3 was HIS SEASON. It was designed to be. When you have an ensemble cast of such great characters sometimes a character gets more standout scenes one year than another. That’s just how it works. That doesn’t mean that he wasn’t great in s4 though
Morna the Witch,
That’s exciting to hear, I wish good things for him. I think he’s a great Jon Snow and he was really terrific this year. But I’m not surprised he lost to Dink, the real star of this year, and Dance and McCann, in their farewell seasons.
So, many of us have to eat every fucking chicken in this room.
I’m so glad for Rory McCann!!! It was HIS season by far!!!
As for Emilia – I don’t know if it’s her acting, or her character or the plotline, but I couldn’t stand it this season… (S04).
As for Kit – I love him! I think that the show is not doing justice with Jon Snow – they made him planky and clueless (and it’s not about Kit’s abilities… his text is very poor, even an exceptional actor will sound miserable reciting this shameful text…), and it’s a shame, because Jon is shrewed and cynical, not at all the show’s snow. I hope they do him justice as lord commander. Frankly, ny money is on Jon sitting the Iron Throne at the end – don’t forget that a bastard established the British Royal House…
… and one more thing: I don’t think we saw the last of Rory. Don’t forget that the Hound had armour AND A BIG F***ING SWORD!!!
Yassss Sophie! Great winners all around!
Oh wow! Chickens were shut out! whoooaaa
Maisie came pretty close considering she didn’t have the regular dramatic moments the others did.
And in Season 5 she’s going to be in a storyline that is completely different from everyone else’s. I can’t wait.
Congrats to Jack Gleeson for long overdue recognition.
Dragonslayer,
This! Agree completely. NCW did a great job and his material and situation was altogether different in season 4. Nothing as intense as the bathtub scene but the Lannister family scenes are always really good (and often subtle) and very important. Lots of things are unsaid but still conveyed. Also the Oathkeeper material with Brienne I thought was well done. I did not agree with all the changes they made on the show in Jaime/Cersei’s relationship, but NCW and Lena did a great job in all those scenes regardless. I thought Nikolaj was particularly strong in scenes with Peter and with Charles Dance this season, who he did not get to interact with for a long time.
but I’m obviously biased 😉
It’s just a really tough field, too many great actors and actresses on this show is a problem we are all happy to have! 🙂
NCW’s toughest job is when he works with Lena Headey. They have no actor’s chemistry together and they don’t seem able to portray effectively the history the twins share.
He’s great with Peter, Charles and Gwen but my absolutely favourite pairing for NCW so far is with Michelle Fairley. There was such a spark between them.
RORY WON YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES
That’s all I need to know.
AryaArya,
I don’t think he’s bad with Lena but you’re dead-on that he and Michelle were perfect together. Just listen to their commentary for ep. 208. That is world-class chemistry/flirting going on there.
SOPHIE AND RORY! YESSSSS!
It’s striking how many votes have gone to actors/characters who (presumably) won’t be around next season. Rory McCann, Pedro Pascal, Jack Gleeson, Kate Dickie, and very nearly Rose Leslie in the acting categories; Oberyn and the Hound for scenes and quotes. I like it, even in those cases when it wasn’t the winners I picked.
(And no, I don’t think it means next season will be bad. It’s just appreciation for those who have left the show.)
AryaArya,
Jack has had recognition for a long time. He also won Best Supporting Actor for season 2.
AryaArya,
I agree that NCW and Michelle Fairley were awesome together! If you watch their commentary clips you can see that they have a great sense of humor with each other 😉
EDIT: Greenjones and I think alike 😉
While I don’t agree with some of these… it is interesting to see who fans voted for and how a few go COMPLETELY against the hyperbole tossed around following certain episodes or characters.
As I always say, the statements of the dramatic few in comments sections, don’t always have much to do with the opinions of the masses.
Yes I was very confused why Jaime and Cersei did not
Most I agree with, anything with Arya/Hound were the funniest moments, my favorite dramatic scenes though were the ones involving Roose and Ramsay, and the Lysa/Sansa and LF throne room, Oberyn and Tyrion was a close third.
The Giant knocking the Nightwatchman off the wall with an obsenely large arrow was just so epic, terrifying and a OMFG that’s gotta hurt moment. Imagine if you were there and actually saw that happen, odds are your pants would get wet and brown.
Maisie and Rory deserve best actors for last season, my unsullied family so wants the Hound to live and be reunited with Arya, to them Sandor is the father Arya should have had. They also believe Brienne should eventually shack up with Sandor too (made for each other), and thereby create Westeros’s most badass family, Pod I guess would be the bumbling yet brave stepson/brother. I can see those four surviving the chaotic climax, riding off into the long night…then we get a spin-off from HBO.
tyjon,
I think that Sandor and Sansa will be the next power couple. They are both in the Vale, and she’s having a crush on him anyway and he has a soft spot for girls in trouble, so it’s gonna happen… They both deserve each other…
Anara Snow
*Sigh*
I am reiterating what other people already said on the thread. I get the impression many fans connect their hate for the character with her arc in aDwD, the Merenese knot, etc with the degree with which Danearys as a character (that is, a young ambitious teenage queen from a powerful family, who needs to go through a hell of a learning curve to become who she needs to be) can be adapted successfully on screen. That’s why I connect the two aspects. On a reread of aDwD I liked her arc more, especially the very last chapter. At this point I think “passing beneath the shadow” means she will take a detour to Valyria, not Asshai as many believe. Regardless, reading her chapters again has made me excited again for her storyline on screen.
Turncloak,
Well, the books hint that perhaps Cersei might be pregnant, I know many believe she is just in denial about age, but book Cersei is like 34 not 40 as in the show, wish all women looked as good as Lena at 40, she still appears to be 30. In the show, the sex between J/C does not involve the same physical problems as in the books, so perhaps show Cersei is preggers and this might be one of the reasons the FM goes nuts.
The Faith is to me at least based more on Cromwell’s Fanatic Puritanical Prudish Model Army Morons (whew! that’s a mouthful) than anything else, with a bit of Templar mixed in. Most during that time didn’t care if a widowed queen slept around, but Puritans were to the 17th century as ISIS is to the early 21st century and would condemn such behavior; hell they often times hung their own daughters for fornication.
Turncloak,
I was a bit disappointed by some of the changes in Season 4 because I think although they were well written and acted in their own right, by changing the timeline it might not be easy for the unsullied audience to understand the progression. In the books I like that Jaime returns and they are immediately reunited, and he so pleased to be finally back to her, but slowly comes to realize how the situation has changed, and this leads to him burning her letter by the end. With the show timeline changes (Jaime returns before Joffrey’s death, he’s waiting around for Cersei to reunite with him, frustration leads to the Sept scene, then Cersei makes a plea to keep him and they reunite again at the end of S4) it seems like a lot more confusing back and forth, even though we can see from Nikolaj’s acting that he is starting to doubt and is definitely confused.
I hope we get something clear in Season 5 which gets the show to the point where the books are!
LemonCake,
A little SanSan with your Lemon cakes, yummy!
tyjon,
and yes, Lena does look fantastic!
Dragonslayer,
None of the funniest nominations were even all that funny, they were laugh worthy certainly but there were others that were better, more ironic and understated. – but people often look at me strange when I say things that I think are hilarious, so what do I know about funny anyway…
Although I’m glad Pedro/Oberyn won a lot I’m very sad that Gwendoline didn’t win anything.
I think a lot of people like Sophie more than they like Sansa or her acting. Let’s be honest – its hard to dislike Sophie Turner in general. She’s adorable and much more fan friendly than some of the others which wins her points. I adore Maisie but I do think Sophie has pulled ahead on the social game quite a bit. Emilia hasn’t been ‘out there’ socially as much because she was making a movie so she missed Comic Con and a lot of the promotion for S4. I think social game influences these things a lot.
As much as I loved Oberyn’s words to the Mountain, I think Ser Alliser’s ‘Castle Black will stand’ speech deserved the win.
I actually don’t mind Emilia Clarke as Daenerys. I worry whether both show and book Daenerys has some of her late and nutty father’s unhealthy obsession with fire (well the part of me that indulges in the willing suspension of disbelief does; I know it’s fiction). I’m not saying the witch (at the end of season/Book 1) didn’t deserve to be punished for killing D’s baby and the trick about “curing” Khal Drogo. but being burned alive – grizzly!!!! That’s not really anything to do with the acting ability or not of members of the cast, though. It’s true Sophie Turner was given a chance to play a less passive role this season and I prefer it if the same people don’t win every year. I do think that Maisie Williams was very good but the Arya and the Hound road trip was (to me at least) a little drawn out. As they were not to be in the show again, I’m pleased Jack Gleeson, Kate Dickie and Pedro Pascal were recognised. But of course it is really a great ensemble effort by the whole cast.
Very deserved wins for Sophie and Rory. The Best Supporting Actress results are not very good though IMO.
alikat,
I agree I think a lot of people like Sophie herself, in addition to Sansa. But you have to admit Sansa had a great season, with all her scenes with Petyr and the reveal of Dark/Darth Sansa, I think it was a standout season for her compared to seasons 1-3.
I’m quite happy with all of the winners! Of course, I’d be remiss if I didn’t acknowledge that part of the reason that I say that is because I ended up voting for the winners in 9 of the 14 categories (Episode, Actress, Supporting Actor, Death Scene, Visual Effects, Dramatic Scene, Guest Actor, Guest Actress, and Funniest Quote). However, every one of the nominees and eventual winners had much to recommend them, and ultimately, it was hard to go wrong. We were truly spoiled for choice this year.
As I noted in the Live awards thread, the win that actually made me the happiest last night was Rory McCann taking Best Actor. I voted for Peter Dinklage in that category because I felt that it was his and Tyrion’s best season, and he played a central role in many of the series’ best and most memorable scenes from this past year. But Rory McCann has been a key and frequently undersung member of the ensemble since the beginning, and he made his role feel deeper and more lived-in as time passed. It all culminated in this, his best season, where he not only took home the Comedy MVP award going away, but nailed all of his key dramatic moments – especially his final scene, which I thought encapsulated the character perfectly and represented the best of all that McCann brought to the role. A well-deserved victory.
Now, how about instead of a trophy, we find a way to send the poor guy a flagon of ale and a maester …
Eh? Many women have children in their 40s . People who are saying that seem to be ignorant of biology. Menopause doesn’t start that early, folks.
I hear he likes chicken.
People vote for Sophie because she is an excellent actress who has always made the most out of the often poor material (which wouldn’t have been poor if the show writers hadn’t cut most of her book story in King’s Landing. It’s high time she got recognition, and it happened this year since the writers finally stopped pushing her into the background and treating her as a supporting character with no story of her own. It is such a pity that they had denied her so much the great book material in the previous seasons.
Emilia was excellent in season 1, but has gotten worse since. Maybe it’s because she plays a vulnerable young girl coming into her own slowly better than a powerful, determined queen who keeps her insecurities and doubts hidden. The Unsullied like Dany because she has dragons and does exciting stuff, but the show writers have been as bad in portraying Dany’s inner life and compexity as they have been with Sansa’s. The difference between the two is that Emilia is not one of those actors who can make the most of and elevate weak material. And while I liked her in the scene with dragons and the Jorah scene, most of her season consisted of robotically reciting badass speeches.
Speaking of which, Owen Teale was certainly not robotic in his delivery, but his speech was nothing special IMO. Just another rousing fight speech, and not at all original like Tyrion’s BW speech. I was surprised it was even there, instead of lines like Tyrion’s “the cripple, the dwarf and the mother of madness” or Mel’s “There’s only one hell” line.
Well at least we can still vote for the “chickens” over at WiC.
Morna the Witch,
I agree! Yes, Amazing reactions for Kit’s performance of Testament Of Youth. I can’t wait for Jon’s storyline in Season 5, Justice for Kit/Jon, please! Congrats for all winners!!!!
Annara Snow,
I keep hearing that the show cut her book material. Yet no one states what was cut. Sansa fans can you help me understand what was cut?
Many of Sansa’s chapters are internal monologue similar to Daenerys so I’m hard pressed to find something tangible that was removed
tyjon,
i never got the impression that Cersei was pregnant. Usually authors use hints to address possible pregnancies such as the woman getting nausea and the like
Nice results!
Even if, as happy as I can be that Pedro Pascal won… iwell t’s a shame Alfie Allen didn’t make it, he’s seriously doing a perfect job on Reek.
In the end, the Episode 9 took it. I find it modestly surprising, but after the initial “Hey that sucked because I don’t care about the Wall” reaction from some, it really seeped in that it was quite the achievement. I voted for The Children, but good with this.
Yay for Sophie!
And yes, the chickens didn’t win (DAMN). But the Hound *did* win for funniest scene and funniest line, and that’s fine by me – those moments are goddamned comedy gold. Plus seeing Rory take it was awesome too.
Turncloak,
How can you not remember those scenes where Sansa/Alayne discovers her dark sexuality with Marillion, her yearning for Sandor, and all those nights that she escaped from the Eyrie to enjoy casual unprotected sexual encounters with the Vale’s Mountain Clans? Then there are all those Vale Lord beheadings and cannibalism, with the skulls piling up in her closet, which SweetRobin finds… Surely you didn’t forget that huge revelation that she was adopted by Ned during one of his raids in Skaagos? D&D just ignored all that.
Greatjon of Slumber,
Thanks for all the hard work behind the scenes, Greatjon! (and Sue and the others as well of course) We might not agree with every choice (how boring would that be), but it definitely gives us a better insight into how other people rate the different aspects of the show – beyond the vocal part of the community as GeekFurious pointed out. People saying that “Sophie just gets votes because people like her as a person rather than her character and acting” or “Emilia doesn’t have a chance because of all the sullied voters” might want to take a small step back from fanboy-/girlism…
Spoiler
http://gameofthronesfan.org/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=63753&fullsize=1
I fear the show will make an exchange between him and Daario . Barristan will be the one Dany send as a hostag to the yunkishmen and Daario will be the one to jump in the pit to disract Drogon from Dany then continue with all the badass stuff that Barristan does in ADWD 🙁 .
aurane waters,
I thought she was good in season 4, but her material doesn’t hold a candle to the other ones. She had three really great scenes, though: the speech in front of Meereen, the chaining of the dragons and Jorah’s banishing. I think it’s because people are getting really tired of Dany. Her deciding to stay in Meereen was character suicide (in both the book and the show) but I’m thinking Emilia will have a chance to shine again in season 6 (maybe even 5?).
Lady Nym,
How about most all of her scenes with Dontos and the entire plot of her trying to escape King’s Landing and having secret meetings in the godswood many times with that purpose? (As opposed to the show where she was dragged by Dontos at the last moment and never even made the decision to escape.) How about the tense scene where she first finds an anonymous note, worries it’s a trap, but arms herself with a knife and goes into the godswood in the middle of the night all the same? How about most of her scenes with Sandor and the entire theme of songs, chivalry and heroism? In other words, most of Sansa’s arc in ACOK? And that’s without getting into the way they watered down the storyline of her forced wedding and made her a prop in what was turned into Tyrion’s story, where she was stripped of all her defiance and most of the dramatic moments? None of these things were dependent on inner monologue, it was all dialogue and interaction with others.
But you already asked that question in the live awards thread and got a great answer by SeanC. Why are you asking again? Did you miss it, or is it not good enough for you?
Mine is the Furry,
^^^
I feel betrayed by this community! BETRAYED!
Should have been best/funniest quote AND best fight scene. Because it was!
People seem to think the funniest scene and quote was talking about Lommy…I don’t know why, 3 minutes later the Hound’s terse threat about “I’m going to eat every chicken in the room (after I’ve killed you all” was laugh out loud funny.
Oberyn’s death I’m afraid people voted for it based on how graphic it was rather than how dramatic.
I am disappointed that people voted for Margaery Tyrell, I thought Olenna had a lot more nuance.
…oh HOW could Oberyn win over Reek? Well, Reek is still alive and Oberyn gets the sympathy vote due to not returning next year, it was really between Oberyn and Reek, sympathy vote tips the scales, I’m okay with that.
Otherwise I pretty much agree with all votes.
The greatest swordsman who ever lived killed by Meryn fucking Trant?
What a crock of pigshit! How does Colonel Sandor and his chickens not win best all-around quote? Key word/s ‘ALL AROUND’. It was equal parts dramatic,badass, and funny. Not to mention it was completely original and not just plucked right from the book.
Also, neither ‘Mockingbird’ or ‘Two Swords’ finished in the top 5 episodes, even though they were the 2 best. Next year just let me decide who wins.
I don’t mind the chickens losing (it kills me a bit in some way) because the Lommy quote one. I also find it still awesome though that the top three vote-getters were all the Hound quotes, all uttered in a five-minute span of time, accounting for 75 percent of that category’s vote. Which is awesome.
Surprised on Mockingbird and Two Swords as well, both great episodes.
“How about most all of her scenes with Dontos and the entire plot of her trying to escape King’s Landing and having secret meetings in the godswood many times with that purpose?”
Every single character has suffered this. Theres no way repeated meetings with Dontos would have made for good television.
“How about the tense scene where she first finds an anonymous note, worries it’s a trap, but arms herself with a knife and goes into the godswood in the middle of the night all the same”
I don’t see how this is compelling, especially without Sansa’s internal monologue. The writers did well to streamline this part.
“How about most of her scenes with Sandor and the entire theme of songs, chivalry and heroism”
This happened in the show when Sandor asks Sansa to leave with him. These scenes were pretty creepy in the book to begin with considering Sansa’s age. The only one I’ll give you is that Sandor should have been the one to tell Sansa her past instead of Littlefinger.
“And that’s without getting into the way they watered down the storyline of her forced wedding and made her a prop in what was turned into Tyrion’s story, where she was stripped of all her defiance and most of the dramatic moments?”
Being stripped of her defiance, meaning not kneeling down, was for the best. Sansa is one of the least liked characters for the unsullied and having her be a witch to fan favorite Tyrion would have done more damage than good. If I was a writer though, I’d play a trick on the viewers and have Joffrey command Sansa to kneel down. Sansa refusing would then be an ac of defiance against Joffrey rather than the perceived defiance against Tyrion. I agree with you here, they could have shown some defiance
As opposed to repeating scenes of her standing around and doing nothing whilst being made the butt of jokes?
You don’t think that receiving secret messages from an unknown source and making one’s way through the Red Keep at night, knowing you could be walking into a trap, would make for good TV? That’s one of the most cinematic sequences in Sansa’s entire story to date, and totally belies the notion that Sansa’s arc was cut for not being easy to film, because they cut basically all of her actual actions.
No, it didn’t. That scene in the show made no sense because of the way the writers had completely stripped that arc of its scenes and thematic content. The idea of a true knight is never brought up, nor is the fact that the Hound isn’t a knight, or why, or any of the impact that Sansa’s idealism has on him, because they never have any conversations prior to the riot, and that one amounts to only a couple of sentences.
Private Browsing reporting for duty!
Sean C.,
I personally think a lot of Sansa fans are grasping at straws with their complaints.
She does not have much to do in the books or show until she leaves Kings Landing.
Jon Snow fans on the other hand had plenty cause to complain with the way the Halfhand was botched, how he got a beatdown from Craster, etc.
For the sake of the adaptation they had to make concessions for every single character
Yes, women have children in their 40’s, and no, menopause doesn’t usually start at 40 (although the beginning stages can begin as early as their late 30’s). However, it is far more common for women to become pregnant in their early/mid 30’s, than it is once they hit 40. I think that is all they were saying, so there’s no need to start throwing around the ignorant label, imo.
Not sure how NCW is getting criticism. He was given scraps this season and managed to make them amusing (the golden hand, the opening episodes with Tywin, anything with Tyrion, etc). His main role for Season 4 was supporting the other characters stories without overshadowing them which I think he did a terrific job of.
Because the writers have been really careful not to put Sansa in scenes with much older men that could be creepy or read as romantic, right?
This is a really poor argument, especially when you consider the fact that the percentage of dialogue in those scenes that explicitly concerns a possible sexual or romantic connection is very small, especially compared to her scenes with Littlefinger – or for that matter, Tyrion, due to the fact that she’s married to the guy and expected to eventually agree to have sex with him (or else poor Tyrion will have to be celibate, according to the show, “and now my watch has begun”…).
No, it wasn’t for the best. I agree that it would have done her damage if she had refused to kneel after they 1) made Tyrion the nicest guy in the world and completely whitewashed his role in the wedding, treating it as if he was forced just like her, 2) had Tyrion tell her about it way ahead of time, 3) had that ridiculous scene with Margaery where it seemed like the show was telling us that Sansa should be grateful for marrying Tyrion and that she must like him, or else she’s totally shallow, and where they did their best to make it seem like Sansa had no right to have any objections to her forced marriage (hey, your new husband will not beat you like Joff, [just rape you]! And being raped by him must be really pleasant and you’ll learn to like it, since he’s really good in bed [as evidenced by the fact he’s slept with lots of women he paid to have sex with him and pretend they like it]. And don’t forget, your children may inherit Casterly Rock and the North one day! [After your new in-laws have killed your brother.]) And everything else they’ve done to make it all about how stupid and shallow the underage hostage is for not liking the guy she’s forced to marry so her captors would use her to steal her family’s lands (ha ha, she’s crushing on Loras because he’s hot and hopes to marry him, but he’s gay, let’s make a few jokes about that and about his gayness! And she doesn’t appreciate Tyrion’s wonderfulness, Margaery is the one who has to remind her that Tyrion is not as bad as Joffrey and Cersei, as opposed to the book, where she realized that by herself a long time before and even prayed for him during the Blackwater battle).
If they have had it happen just like in the books, where Sansa was hoping to marry Willas Tyrell (a cripple, but a reputedly nice guy and, most importantly, someone she could marry to get the hell away from King’s Landing and the Lannisters) when the wedding to Tyrion was sprung on her all of a sudden with Cersei coming and threatening her, accompanied by two knights of the Kingsguard (one of whom, Trant, used to beat her bloody at Joffrey’s orders), and where Sansa tries to run away, but they catch her and Cersei tells her in no uncertain terms that she is going to be wedded and bedded that night, and if she doesn’t go calmly with them they will drag her kicking and screaming – if they had it happen like that, instead of completely watering it down, her not kneeling would have perfectly understandable and a great defiant moment that a lot of the audience would love her for. Those who would hate her for it (probably the same percentage that hate her for it in the books) are those that should not be pandered to in the first place.
It would have also been perfectly clear why she doesn’t want to kneel, if they had Tyrion, just like in the book, suggest to her that she could marry the prettier, non-dwarf Lancel as an alternative to him, and have Sansa refuse, just like in the books. Since they don’t mind Sansa and other characters voicing things they don’t in the books, they could have had her say that marrying another Lannister is not a better option for her. And they could have also have her say, just like she does in the books, that she knows Tyrion is not as bad as Joffrey, and that she remembers him helping her when Joffrey had her beaten, which is why she decides that Tyrion is the better of the two awful options.
SeanC has already covered the rest. The idea that Sansa finding an anonymous note in her room from someone promising to help her get home, arming herself with a knife and going to the godswood in the middle of the night to meet that mysterious person, would not be good for TV, is especially strange.
There are lots of exciting moments and strong dramatic scenes for Sansa in the books that the show cut or watered down, even though they would have made great TV.
And your personal opinion is factually wrong, as demonstrated in my and Sean’s posts. I don’t know how you can continue to claim that she didn’t have anything to do in the books, or that the show didn’t cut anything significant from her story, even after having been reminded of what’s actually in the books.
The fact that they botched Jon’s story doesn’t mean that they didn’t botch Sansa’s story. I don’t see how those two are mutually exclusive.
What’s up with all that “Jon Snow fans”, “Sansa fans” etc., as if people are divided in camps and allowed only to care for one character’s storyline? I can see when the show botches or cuts characters’ storylines even if they are not my favorite.
I really don’t see how that would be all they’re saying. The other poster said that somw people supposedly think that “she is just ignorant of her age” if she (supposedly) believes she can be pregnant. How is that not saying that it’s impossible for a 40-year old woman to get pregnant?
NCW, for all his screentime, I think was a bit shortchanged this season. I thought the added scene of him going to Tywin to try to bargain for Tyrion’s life was one of the show’s more inspired additions, at least concerning his character*, but not only did he not get his big climactic scene where he reveals the truth about Tysha, and the angry parting with his brother, we also don’t get any real buildup to his decision to free Tyrion and defy his father and sister, which might have provided a substitute.
* The idea that Tywin knows Tyrion isn’t guilty but is going along anyway for his own reasons I’m much less fond of, since it plays into the showrunners’ over-fixation on this character’s capabilities at the expense of his many flaws in the novels; he really did just think Tyrion did it there.
Well, then we obviously see things differently. Saying, “I know many believe she is just in denial about age,” is not, imo, the same as saying it is impossible for a 40 year old woman to get pregnant, but stating the reality that it is far, far more unlikely to be the case than if she were 34, as research into fertility and aging shows. Obviously, we have different interpretations of what they were implying, but, hey, if you want to go on and call people ignorant because of what you thought they saying, but didn’t actually say, I suppose that’s your prerogative.
On topic: I’m still smiling over Rory winning, and still mystified over the popularity of the Lommy line.
Annara Snow,
Just because they cut stuff from Sansa’s storyline doesn’t mean she went from main character in the books to supporting character in the show, though. Your list of changes is exhaustive, but a lot of them are pretty small moments that don’t really pull the focus of the storyline back to her in a very significant way. In the books, she is the POV for seven chapters. That’s as much or more than the number of chapters for characters who disappeared/died halfway through the book (Catelyn, Davos, Bran) and a lot less than Tyrion, whose storyline she shares for most of that book.
Then there’s the nature of her chapters. How many times did she really do anything very significant in any of them? One chapter of hers is Joffrey’s birthday celebration, which provided more public tension between Joffrey and Tyrion, basically building up to his frame up. It also gives the audience the answer to who provided the dagger to Bran’s assassin, but Sansa isn’t the one who discovers that, it’s Tyrion. Would we have lost anything interesting if that chapter was from Tyrion’s perspective instead? It’s the prefect example of Sansa serving her primary purpose in the books, which is to be a fly on the wall for scenes more imporrant for other characters. Even her wedding, despite being from her perspective, was about Tyrion and what he would do. The chapter’s climax concerns whther Sansa will be raped by Tyrion, so basically it basically builds up to his decision more than it builds up to anything Sansa does. It’s immediately preceded by Tyrion publically standing up to Joffrey, another Tyrion focused scene that Sansa is merely present for. Even her decision not to kneel has little consequence and felt, to me, oddly Tyrion focused as well. She just moments earlier thought somewhat fondly of Tyrion, and then “rebels” in a way that embarrasses Tyrion and only Tyrion. It felt like a somewhat contived way for George to make this experience as painful as possible for his favorite character.
I’m not a huge fan of how they handled Sansa in Season 3. Some of her scenes were terrible and there were other moments they kept offscreen that would have been great if filmed. I think some of the moments you bring up would have been good to have. But would the inrementally more screentime made her a main character? Would the choices she made in the books, which had no consequence to the plot, really give her more significance on the show? Not much, and I think that’s what people are reacting to when they say Sansa fans are grasping at straws in making the argument that she was significantly diminished. Sansa’s material in both the book and the show has been about what happens around her, how others use her, and what others do to her, much more than it is about her and what she does.
Sansa, like all the characters, gives a view of other things. But her chapters are not about what happens around her. Her story is about her character development and her attempts to assert herself and survive in King’s Landing. It is true that she is not a master player in ACOK-ASOS, but the story isn’t just (or even primarily) about the master players. Sansa’s story in those books is about among other things, the consequences of being treated like a gamepiece. That’s why we get her perspective. Whereas the show treated her like Tywin and Olenna and Littlefinger do, as an object, rather than as an actor in her own right, which is how GRRM treated her. Thus, the audience is encouraged to view her as an object being acted upon.
It’s also about Sansa’s gradual maturation. Her attempts to escape are central to that, as are her debates about the nature of heroism (and the impact she has on the Hound validates her viewpoint, whereas in the show there’s no sense that the Hound is affected at all by anything she says). The fact that the show completely cut her escape story and basically wrote her as comic relief in season 3 is especially jarring when you consider how her story was handled in season 4 (almost as if that sitdown they had with GRRM made them realize the character wasn’t anywhere near where she needed to be), where she’s suddenly catapulted far ahead of where she is at the end of AFFC. Yet the show laid basically no groundwork during her time in King’s Landing to get her there (and her time in King’s Landing is actually way more important in the show than in the books, because in the books her active tutelage in “playing the game” really begins with Littlefinger, but in the show he doesn’t really teach her anything); you essentially have to assume that substantial portions of what she does in those seasons is an act that the audience isn’t in on, which is a complete failure as character development goes.
alikat,
I think it is surprising that Gwendoline got that number of votes considering she was just instantly promoted to Best Actress category when she was in the past year/s always nominated as supporting actress and Season 4 is not even Brienne-centric. People don’t necessarily consider her character visible enough to be considered for a lead actress category. So yay happy for her also that she did good in this very tough, new category she was nominated in.
Sean C.,
Exactly.
@Hodor Targaryen: By that logic, Tyrion is a supporting character in ASOS, since – even though he has a lot more agency than Sansa – some 80% of his storyline is about what Tywin, Cersei, Littlefinger, Olenna, Oberyn, Jaime and Varys do. At least two of Tyrion’s chapters are more about Oberyn than about Tyrion; he is merely the “window” to the Oberyn/Mountain fight; and the Purple Wedding chapter, which is from his POV, is focused on Joffrey.
Sean C.,
I think I’m pretty much the only one but I really enjoyed the beetles scene with Tyrion. Really built up the tension waiting for the Mountain/Viper fight and I think it was quite philisophical on death and how it is as meaningful/meaningless as life. Think NCW has an important role this season as or a lot of people the success of the Dorne storyline is hanging on him.
TheTouchOfFrost,
Not so fast, mister. +1 for me as well. Kafka foreva! Khuu Khuu ka Khuu, I am the walrus!
(sorry, bit o’ *relevant* word association…)
Annara Snow,
“ha ha, she’s crushing on Loras because he’s hot and hopes to marry him, but he’s gay, let’s make a few jokes about that and about his gayness!”
Oh yea that part was SUUPER Uncannon (Sarcasm)
ASOS paperback p88 “Wed to Ser Loras, oh… Sansa breath caught in her throat. She remembered Ser Loras in his sparkling saphire armor, tossing her a rose. Ser Loras in white silk, so pure innocent, beautiful. The dimples at the corner of his mouth when he smile. The sweetness of his laugh, the warmth of his hand. She could only imagine what it would be like to pull up his tunic and caress the smooth skin underneath, to stand on her toes and kiss him, to run her fingers through those thick brown curls and drown in his deep brown eyes. A flush crept up her neck”.
Turncloak,
The mere fact that Sansa wants to marry Loras is not a departure from the books. It’s entirely a matter of emphasis and degree (as well as the fact that Loras being gay is something to be read between the lines at that point in the story, whereas in the show he’s treated as little more than a camp stereotype). Sansa’s marriage storyline in the books was not just a succession of scenes mocking her for wanting to marry a gay guy.
Incidentally, I don’t think that using Loras instead of Willas was intrinsically a problem for the show. It could have easily been written in a way that respected the characters. It just wasn’t. For instance (off the top of my head), they could have had Loras decide to tell Sansa he was gay before marrying her, out of honesty; Sansa could be disappointed, but ultimately say she would marry him anyway to escape King’s Landing; you could also use this conversation as a way for Loras to talk about Renly, for that matter, which would do his character some good. Instead their scenes are just the writers sniggering at the two of them.
I’m so happy my guy won! I *heart* you Pedro Pascal. Awesome job. Also I see Jack and Kate won as well. Rooted for both of them too.
I am surprised at “all the chicken” quote. I thought that would win it all.
Sean C.,
The scene with Sansa and Loras is directly from the book. In the show Sansa reminds Loras that he gave her a rose during the Tourney. In both book and show he forgot.
I seriously didn’t see many changes to Sansa’s character until they sped up her arc and turned her into Darth Sansa in season 4.
I’m intrigued to see the controversial scene with Sansa that GRRM has promised us. Maybe Sansa will start sleeping with Littlefinger and use the lessons Cersei has taught her
Sean C.,
Annara Snow,
I think there are several factors going into whether you classify Sansa as a supporting or major character. One is how much time is spent with her (most easily measured by number of POV chapters, though she also shows up very occasionally in Tyrion’s chapters). Another is how much she contributes to the plot. Another is her own character development. On all three fronts, she kind of scores pretty low compared to the other characters in the series.
Looking at the first three books, she is consistently pretty low on how many chapters she POVs (not really looking ar FeastDance since the POVs become kind of a mess). She averages about seven. That’s higher than Davos, Bran, Theon, and Sam, but I think most consider them supporting rather than major characters.
Then there’s contribution to the plot. Please name one thing she’s done that has had an actual consequence to really anything.
Whether her character develops I think is pretty debateable. I’d like to think that she’s learning, but as of when she is secretly engaged to Loras halfway into SoS, she seems roughly about as naive as she was in the beginning of the series. Littlefinger is now teaching her how to play the game, but unlike D&D, George hasn’t given her a chance to really show off what she knows, she just seems a bit more observant in her Feast chapters but that’s really it.
Yes, every character has things happen TO them. But they’re usually given SOMEthing to do that contributes to their own storyline at least. Tyrion saves King’s Landing, kills his ex and father; Jon Snow spies on wildlings and helps lead the Nights Watch when defending the Wall; Daenerys leads an anti-slavery movement in Essos of her own volition; Catelyn arrests Tyrion and frees Jaime. I can’t think of anything Sansa has done of her own free will that has affected her own personal story or the larger plot. I don’t know how by any measureable standard Sansa can be considered a major character and not a supporting one in the books.
Sean C.,
That scene between Loras and Sansa is, incidentally, an example of bad writing somewhat saved by her acting. Imagine if she had played it as a wide-eyed, love-struck, overjoyed teen/comic relief. Instead, Sansa looks a bit sad in that pretty awkward scene, and instead of “OMG this guy is totes hot OMG OMG!” which the above mentioned approach would have achieved, it looks that – while she’s not aware that he’s gay – she’s aware that he’s not really interested in her (which she realized during the previous scene when he didn’t remember giving her the rose at the tournament), but just really hopes to get out of King’s Landing (“the worst place in the world”, as Loras and she agree in the better written part of that scene, and from her face it’s obvious how much it’s really not a joke to her).
But nothing saves the terrible gay stereotypes that we’re supposed to laugh at. I’d say two things though, to be fair: 1) compared to how Loras is treated, that scene is not that bad for Sansa, and 2) it’s certainly not the worst writing for Sansa that season… that would be “will my family come to the wedding?” Nothing can save or justify that line.
Um, yeah, that’s one scene. That has nothing to do with how they handled the rest of that plot. Also, that scene in the book ended with Sansa realizing that he didn’t remember, a point that isn’t obviously conveyed in the show.
This was so much fun, thanks everyone! Interesting to see how peoples’ senses of humor can vary so much, and how some scenes resonate so strongly with some, and not with others.
Alfie Allen sort of got lost in the shuffle, but he was up against Pedro Pascal so I kind of expected it.
Glad to see so many of us appreciate the great work done by Rory and Sophie.
Sansa remembered he forgot in her internal monologue. Woe to the show for not showing us the character’s thought bubbles
She’s one of the original eight POV characters, one of the six remaining living ones, she’s in the top five for total chapter counts, and she has her own plot thread and character development and supporting characters running through all four books. That’s how she’s a major character. A “supporting character” does not have that. You can argue about who is a main character beyond the main POV characters, but the main POVs are main characters. That’s why they’re POVs in the first place.
The fact that she realizes he doesn’t remember is a rather important point in that scene. Just adapting the scene without it is an example of careless adaptation. They should either have avoided that moment entirely, or they should have adapted it in such a way that made it clear that she understood; otherwise the scene just makes her look stupid for not realizing his comically evasive demeanour, which was not the point of the original scene.
She scores very high on the third front. She’s among top characters in that regard.
On the first front, she has had 24 chapters in the books in the books so far. That makes her one of the top 6 characters in the series going by the number of chapters, behind Tyrion, Jon Snow, Arya, Dany and Catelyn – and since we already know she is going to have chapters in TWOW and that Catelyn is not, she’s going to overpass Cat and most likely be in the top 5 characters by the number of chapters (unless Bran has at least 4 chapters more than Sansa).
As for the second front – yes, you are right. Obviously, Sansa, Arya and Bran are supporting characters, since they haven’t done anything that has really affected the plot. The real main characters of the series are Littlefinger, Varys and Illyrio.
And she was never engaged to Loras. Since you don’t remember that, I’m not surprised that you seem to remember so little from her storyline.
Sophie does show it with her disappointed look when it becomes clear that he doesn’t remember.
BTW, what’s up with comments awaiting moderation?
Yeah, I agree that Sophie tries to play it that way. I don’t think the way that scene is written/directed does a great job of backing up her performance (a recurring problem in season 3, especially; she’s fighting a rearguard action to try and preserve that character’s dignity).
Well, I’m trying to post it once more without ‘awaiting moderation’, hopefully. Let’s see if eliminating quotes will help.
@Hodor Targaryen:
She scores very high on the third front. She’s among top characters in that regard.
On the first front, she has had 24 chapters in the books in the books so far. That makes her one of the top 6 characters in the series going by the number of chapters, behind Tyrion, Jon Snow, Arya, Dany and Catelyn – and since we already know she is going to have chapters in TWOW and that Catelyn is not, she’s going to overpass Cat and most likely be in the top 5 characters by the number of chapters (unless Bran has at least 4 chapters more than Sansa).
As for the second front – well, let’s see, by that logic Sansa, Arya and Bran are supporting characters, since they haven’t done anything that has really affected the plot. The real main characters of the series are Littlefinger, Varys and Illyrio.
And she was never engaged to Loras. Since you don’t remember that, I’m not surprised that you seem to remember so little from her storyline.
I never realized Sansa was so popular. Only thing I missed was the downplaying of her and the Hound. That scene from the book where he tells her what happened to his face and threatens to kill her if she tells anyone was great. At least we still have Rory’s audition tape.
Now enough of Sansa, lets get back to talking about how the chickens quote was snubbed for that Princess Bride ripoff.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Fuckin chickens! In another note I just discovered these guys on youtube. Possibly the best ASOIAF podcast I have heard. Great Winds of Winter theories. They are like the sullied versions of Bryon and Dino in terms of how much I like them! You should check them out!
no dink? hmm surprising.
I just want to start this by saying, I love you.
And I’ll finish it by saying Sansa is a character that grew on me, more so in the books, by exactly what Sean is getting at.
A majority of Sansa’s “arc” is internal in the books but she does take matters into her own hands at moments that would’ve been wonderful to see play out on screen. It was painfully obvious in season 1 when they gave a great moment in the books, Sandor telling the story of his scars, to Littlefinger, that much of her story would be trimmed. Maybe the powers that be didn’t want to go too deep into the Sandor/Sansa thing because of the actors but it was a huge turning point for the character. This all but eliminated the need for a lot of the Sandor/Sansa dynamic, something that continues to be a crucial theme to the character (the Knight being the least expected, expectations of what brave is, “They’re all liars here”) . Add in Dontos, the “Knight” who could be a pawn, yet she is so hopeful for help at this point, risks everything for the promise of rescue. I would’ve loved to see these moments play out because it would have been based on Sansa’s choice. I loved the scene with the Vale Lords because it was Sansa taking matters into her own hands. But damn, the writers have taken the long road to get there with this character. She may not get the action that Jaime or Arya get but when Sansa is able to assert her own agency, it makes for great reading. In turn, would have probably made great television, too.
Turncloak,
I quite enjoyed this podcast as well as a few of their past podcasts. Pretty good balance between them. I recommend them as well, if you have the time. They go on for hours!
Annara Snow,
Um, yeah, I’d say Bran is a supporting character. He hasn’t changed too much since waking up, has done little to affect the plot, and isn’t in the story too much either.
Arya is major despite her frustrating lack of agency because of how much she’s in it in books 2 and 3.
The whole point of bringing up multiple factors was that it is a combination of them that separates the major characters from the supporting. So of course I don’t think Varys and Littlefinger are main characters just because they contribute to the plot significantly, that’s why I spent a long paragraph talking about pagetime and number of POV chapters as a factor to consider. The complete lack of POVs quickly eliminates Varys, Littlefinger, Robb, Tywin, Stannis and others from being main characters despite their effect on the story.
Do you really think it is unnecessary for a main character to actually do something to affect their story to qualify as a main character? To have some agency? I don’t need Sansa to save King’s Landing or anything, but the only decisions she ever makes have NO consequence on anything major or minor that happens in the future. To me, that makes it hard for me to see her as more than a supporting character in the larger story generally and the King’s Landing intrigue specifically, who is observing and sloooooowly learning things so that she can, eventually, do something significant. I think if you copy and paste her story from the book onto the screen, I still think she would be seen in a largely supporting role, although possibly witj better scenes.
As for development, I’m still not really buying it. Maybe she’s developed more in Feast, but that’s not the material they adapted in Season 3. I don’t see how the Sansa blushing over Loras soon before her wedding, which is pretty much near the end of what they covered in S3, is particularly different than the Sansa who was blushing over Joffrey in book 1. Sadder and more scared, sure, which was conveyed well on the show, but not findamentally different in any way that I could see, and not in any of the evidenve brought up.
Hodor Targaryen,
Sansa and Bran supporting characters? LOL
Your arguments for who is or is not a main character are completely arbitrary, not to mention contradictory (you claim that the number of chapters is one of the main factors on deciding who is a main character, but then claim that this means Sansa, one of the six people with most chapters in the series, is a supporting character. Or if you are going book by book, that should mean that Arya was a supporting character to begin with, with just five chapters in AGOT, became the main character for the two books while she is in the Riverlands, but then slipped again into the supporting role, with her few chapters in AFFC/ADWD to go with her overall lack of impact on the plot. Of course, Dany was also a supporting character in ACOK as well as in ASOS by that logic).
What it all really seems to boil down to is that you consider certain characters main because you personally seem to be interested in reading about them (Arya) and others supporting because you’re not interested (Sansa, Bran). Naturally, if you’re not interested, you also wouldn’t pay attention to the character development.
Well, that’s not how it actually works. Your personal tastes don’t decide who is a main character in the books and who is not.
One could say that there are only 3 main characters(Jon,Dany, and Tyrion) and the rest are all supporting. You could also say that all POV characters are main characters, or at least the ones with 10+ POV chapters. I fall into the latter category, mostly. The main characters, IMO:
Jon
Tyrion
Dany
Arya
Jaime
Cersei
Sansa
Catelyn
Bran
Davos
Theon
Also, All The Fucking Chickens!
Tyrion Pimpslap,
+1 for the chickens. They got plucked.
My comments on the winners are on the live thread, but overall I’m happy with the winners.
The disappointments for me were Jack Gleeson winning Guest Actor (shouldn’t have been in the category) and Lommy winning over the chickens (How? Jack was excellent so I can’t begrudge him that much, but Lommy? Really?).
I was also surprised that Nataliewon I vited for her, so I’m happy, but nevertheless surprised.
I loved these awards, so thanks for doing them,
Annara Snow,
If Sansa was a supporting character in Season 3, than she was in the book too. Her screentime, character development and agency was roughly proportional to her pagetime, character development and agency in the books. If just having a POV means you’re a main character and that’s your standard, fine, but that means Sansa would be one in Season 3, because we got roughly the same number of scenes from her perspective on Season 3 of the show.
I think one of the flaws of George’s writing is that he sets up characters to seemingly be major characters, but doesn’t give them much to do or much agency. So when you adapt his writing to the screen, without big bold letters telling you whose chapter you’re reading, characters who seem major becase they’re POVs aren’t seen by Unsullied as more than supporting characters in less significant plotlines. Ask any unsullied to name the main characters and see how low Bran is on the list, despite him being a POV. Or Theon or Davos or a lot of others we consider main characters in the books.
And yeah, I’m going book by book with the POVs, and would say Arya was pretty much a supporting character in the KL storyline in the first book and became one of the major characters in the second when she was given way more pagetime and her own storyline to headline. Fluctuating significance shouldn’t be a new idea to asoiaf readers. Jaime went from a cameo appearance in Clash to being one of the main characters in Storm. Arya went from being a supporting player in Ned’s story to being the main character of her own in Clash. Theon goes from being supporting to nonexistant. Sansa I think has stayed in the same rung pretty consistently, giving her more total chapters than characters like Jaime who don’t POV in all the books, but not making a major impact in any of the individual books she’s in.
But the whole discussion of whether Sansa is supporting or not in the books is kind of a red herring. As Pimpslap noted, standards can be different. I just think that if Sansa is supporting in S3, she should be considered supporting in that half of book 3. The little moments you bring up, or the different way filmed scenes could have been shown, wouldn’t have elevated Sansa very significantly from whatever standing you think she had in Season 3. She doesn’t do that much more in the books and doesn’t develop much more in the books, so I think it’s a bit hyperbolic to say that she was taken from main in the books to supporting in the show. She was either main in both or supporting in both, or else different standards are being used.
Annara Snow,
Oh, and I actually usually enjoy Sansa chapters more than Arya’s. But Arya is in the books a lot more than Sansa or Bran, I think that’s a pretty clear distinction between them, and why I would consider Arya overall more of a main character, at least in Clash and Storm, than Sansa. I think she does slip into a supporting role in FeastDance, the lowered significance of both Arya and Sansa is one of my major criticisms of those works.
It’s definatey subjective who to consider main or supporting. But merely who has a POV is kind of a lazy stabdard, at least for me, and even total POVs ignores the fluctuating significance in certain characters in certain books. I think the three prongs I brought up are all the factors to consider when evaluating POV characters significance. Again, I don’t see how a character’s agency or ability to affect their story isn’t something to consider when determining a character’s significance.
Annara Snow,
Tyrion Pimpslap,
If we’re talking about the show, I think we’re talking about people whose journeys we follow and serve as the focal point of their story, and people who are affected by, or grow through, the actions of others and their own actions, and in addition, support their own story – when they go off alone, they’re not forgotten for like, 9 episodes, but stay pretty central, with certain exceptions. GoT is unique in that it has several main characters, and even a few who show up so often you could argue for them as main characters (and I think “main character” and being submitted as Best Actor/Actress are two different things – Tywin deserved to be a Best Actor candidate, but he is generally judged by how he affects others).
With that in mind, the main characters are:
Tyrion
Jon
Dany (these 3 are kind of on another plane)
——
Ned Stark (obviously only for Season 1)
Arya
Sansa
Jaime
Cersei
——
Theon
Catelyn Stark
Davos
Bran
Bran is a “main” character, but arguably has been the least utilized.
The others that come close, but aren’t quite “main” characters, would probably be the Hound (definitely a main character in Season 4), Sam (we definitely see growth/change…if you wanted to argue he’s a main character I’d support it), Tywin (screentime carries the day here) and perhaps Jorah.
No, she didn’t. Sansa got a lot of screentime in season 3, but the changes made to the show were almost all to the effect of relegating Sansa to a supporting character and rarely ever showing things from her POV. SeanC put it perfectly when he said that, while the book shows Sansa dealing with the fact that people are treating her like n object, in the show it’s the narrative itself that treats her like an object. In the show, the audience is always two steps ahead of her in finding things out, her story is not her story anymore but the story of the scheming between Olenna, Varys, Tywin, Littlefinger etc., many of her scenes (with Margaery, Shae etc.) aren’t supposed to show how she’s developing but is all about how the other character is super cool while Sansa is made to be more naive than she’s in the books at that point (where she’s two years younger!), the audience is encouraged to laugh at her rather than relate to her, and the storyline about her forced wedding somehow becomes all about Tyrion, what a cool and heroic guy he is, how the marriage might hurt his relationship with Shae, and whether Sansa is “mature” enough to appreciate the wonderfulness of the man she’s forced to marry. Even her reaction to the news that her mother and brother were murdered at the Red Wedding was shown in the season 3 finale from Tyrion’s POV only, with a focus on how sad it is for him to have a wife who hates his family for killing half of her family, and how sad it supposedly is that he and Sansa can’t be BFFs anymore and joke around, as they were shown previously in one of those show-only “let’s laugh at how childish and sheltered Sansa is” scenes.
And no, Sansa doesn’t get nearly the same development in the show in seasons 2 and especially 3, that she did in the books. What development was shown in the show in season 3? What did she learn from everything that happened to her? What strength of character does she show? (Even her “What if I never want you to, my lord?” moment was watered down, since she never seemed to have been in danger of rape, or threatened and forced verbally and physically into marriage, which is what happens in the book when Cersei comes with two armed Kingsguard nights, stops her from running away and tells her she’ll be dragged to the sept if need be but ‘wedded and bedded’ all the same.) Instead, they used her as a prop and a butt of jokes in season 3 and even regressed the development she had before since the finale of season 1; and then they tried to promptly make her into a “player” at the end of season 4 and sell the idea that she had been learning all that time in King’s Landing, even though that wasn’t what they were actually showing.
I don’t find the Lommy comment particularly funny, either. But I can’t say I was particularly taken with any of the other nominated lines.
The biggest disappointment for me, however, was the lack of nomination for the chaining of the dragons in the best CGI scene category.
I was also disappointed by Tyrion’s “the cripple, the dwarf and the mother of madness” line and Mel’s “There’s only one hell” line missing out on the final five nominations in the Best overall quote category. I also think that the entire Tyrion’s trial speech should have been one nomination, not two (which would have also helped it, instead of splitting the votes – I voted for the original show quote because it was new and affected me in a visceral way, but the book quote, which I had known for a long time, is also excellent and had the same effect the first time I read ASOS).
On the other hand, I’m happy that Pedro, Sophie and Rory won their acting categories (the only one I would have preferred to have gone differently is Best Supporting Actress – I voted for Rose Leslie) and that the amazing scene of Oberyn in Tyrion’s cell won Best Dramatic Scene. The other category where my pick won was Best Episode, but I could have easily voted differently – that one was really close, and I changed my mind several times before finally voting.
It was nominated, but did not receive enough votes to make it to the final round, which I, too, found unfortunate.
That’s what I meant. By nomination, I mean being in the final five nominees.
Annara Snow,
I agree, I think Tyrion’s lines could have been combined, and probably would have had a better shot. I don’t think it would have been longer than Thorne’s “line.”
Annara Snow,
Incidentally, since people have been debating the status of Sansa, Bran, et al. as “main characters”, I think the writers clearly struggled with both Sansa and Bran’s adaptation in terms of both lack of interest and/or difficulties with the nature of the story being told (which is especially true in Bran’s case; GRRM’s storyline for him is the single-biggest victim of the way a single book grew into 3-5 books without the growth in the amount of story being told being spread equally). But the big difference is that with Sansa’s story, while the writers were indifferent to Sansa’s character development and themes (I think they pretty much subscribe to the view that she didn’t do anything until she got to the Vale, even though, as I already said, their revised version of events ironically suggests she underwent far greater character development in King’s Landing than in the books, even though they showed much less than the books), they clearly have enormous interest in the setting and the supporting characters that populate Sansa’s storyline. Hence, their telling of the story demotes Sansa to object and focuses on the people around her. With Bran, equally clearly, they don’t think his supporting characters are any more interesting than he is, so the focus remains, kind of by default, on him, even though I think most of his scenes after he leaves Winterfell should have a flashing subtitle saying “we would rather be doing anything else right now”.
Annara Snow,
I think they absolutely should have given Sansa the chance to react to the Red Wedding. Agree with you completely there.
I don’t really see, though, how the Tyrell’s offpage scheming is in any way more respectful to Sansa’s significance than Varys’ and Littlefinger’s onscreen scheming. In both she is a pawn to be moved. Is it because we don’t hear about it from her point of view first? That’s a pretty small difference. The effect of the Tyrell schming is pretty much the same. It’s obvious to the reader, if not to Sansa, that they aren’t marrying her off to Willas out of the goodness of their hearts. Concerning her marriage to Tyrion, we do in fact know about Tywin’s plans through Tyrion before we read Sansa’s reaction. So they were pretty loyal to the book there too.
Her conversations with Tyrells seem fairly close to the book scenes, in how they treat Sansa at least. In the books Loras forgot that he gave a rose to Sansa, same in the show. I actually thought she came off a little less naive in the show version of that convo. What makes that scene so terrible is campy Loras, but I think that was meant for the audience to laugh at Loras if anything, I haven’t heard/read anyone who thought Sansa was dumb not to see Loras was gay.
Her conversation with Margaery isn’t too different from what Garlen tells her at the wedding. He tells her that Tyrion would make a good husband, better than Loras. Concerning that scene with Margaery, I think you’re mixing her advice for what the show thinks Sansa should do. I found Margaery was very in-character when telling Sansa she should basically not be too unhappy with her match. I think being forced to marry and have sex with someone is wrong, but it would be pretty unrealistic for most characters, particularly Margaery, to react that way to marital rape.
And I don’t see a dramatic difference between how the show treated Tyrion at the wedding than how the books did. He was, in fact, worried about how his marriage would affect his relationship with Shae in the book. In both the books and the show Tyrion was expected to rape her, and in both he makes the conscious decision not to. Afterwards he attempts to make a joke out of the fact that Sansa will never want to sleep with him, but the show’s joke was funnier. The bedroom scene in the books is more graphic, but that’s just more a matter of degree of how close Tyrion was to raping her. He stops a few moments earlier in the show, I grant you.
In any case, I don’t see how any of these differences in the wedding make Sansa a supporting character more than in the book version.
Concerning her development, my argument is that she’s not developed much in either the book or the show, other than the list of shitty things that happen to her has grown. The one area where I think she sort of subtley is growing in Season 3 is her ability to lie, evidenced in her last scene with Littlefinger and to an extent her scene with Olenna and Margaery. She’s not as good a liar as she is in S4, but better by far than she was in S2. Probably why I dodn’t think her ability to lie in Littlefinger’s mini trial was too abrupt.
I really thought this was Lena Headey’s season; she was fantastic. But Sophie was very good as well, and it was clearly a close vote. Lena’s going to have an amazing script and character arc in Season 5, as well; seeing what she does with it is one of the things I’m most looking forward to. I don’t like Cersei at all; I outright hate her in the books; but Lena makes her an amazing character to watch.
Rory definitely deserved his win; he was the breakout star of Season 4.
Amazed that Tyrion’s trial scene didn’t win for Best Dramatic Scene but, again, it was close.