The Tweets – Part 2

49 Comments

1. But I want Part 3! Argh, you are worse than D&D! /s

   Just kidding, that kind of hate is indeed uncalled for. But alas, this episode could have been so much better…
   No matter, thanks for the twitreview, Axey, and here’s hoping for a 3-parter review of the finale.

2. Thanks Axey, that was great, as always. With all the emotion in some of those tweets it was like being on the roller coaster that was episode 5 again!

3. Here’s how I (having had to eat my hat like some of these tweeters) will attempt to rationalize/apologize for the Jaime thing.

   He loved Brienne and he loved Cersei.
   He went north because Brienne needed him (“I came back because…”).
   He went back to KL because Cersei needed him.
   He wouldn’t have been able to live with himself if Brienne had died in Winterfell without him – he was willing to protect her, or die there by her side.
   He wouldn’t have been able to live with himself if Cersei had died in KL without him – he was willing to try to save her, or die by her side, and so he did.
   So he did everything he did for love. There’s nothing more hateful than to fail to protect the one(s) you love.

   BTW Jaime strangling Cersei to death never felt right to me, valonqar be damned. So in that I’m actually feeling a bit validated.

   ———-

   As for Dany, that’s rough. I just cannot figure out how to rationalize why she did not attack the RED KEEP FIRST. It contained her greatest enemy. OK, sure torch some soldiers/peasants along the way, but then BEELINE FOR THE KEEP. Ensure that Cersei is dead first. Also burning literally the entire city is a bit much – if you want to instill fear in people you can’t kill ALL of them…

   It makes absolutely no sense, except that it will justify even Jon being able to betray and kill her with a clean conscience. There could be no question that she could come back from this. And it’s frustrating that there were other only slightly more complex ways they could have done it that would have worked better for the character and still allowed the plot.

   So… *sigh*. In the end I guess I’ll chalk it up to, like the last 2 episodes, some poorly thought out execution when it comes to big “exciting” moments. Like Dothraki charge, Jon yelling at a dragon, and cloaked pirate ships with sniper ballistas…

4. Gwendolyn Christie was right, we’re all going to need therapy.

5. 3eyes: Gwendolyn Christie was right, we’re all going to need therapy.

   IKR! My first thought upon finishing the episode!

6. People bitching about Jaime need to get a life. Your expectations don’t give you the right to bash the show. His character development showed hes a flawed man who although he tried to do good, in the end couldnt stay away from his sister once he realized she could die.

   Its not that crazy.

7. They did what they thought we, the fans, the people who love and adore this story, wanted out of this story.

   D&D have repeatedly said they don’t play to the audience.

8. QueenofThrones,
   I believe you are correct. Notice Jaime did not kiss Cersei not once. Regarding character arcs like Jaime’s and The Hound’s, I believe GRRM’s point is that even when people try, some people can’t change, can’t change very much, or relapse. The brilliance of ASOIAF is that it’s a very tragic story that manages to give you hope throughout unlike S8. I ain’t got no hope left.

9. Rygritte:
   QueenofThrones,
   I believe you are correct. Notice Jaime did not kiss Cersei not once. Regarding character arcs like Jaime’s and The Hound’s, I believe GRRM’s point is that even when people try, some people can’t change, can’t change very much, or relapse.

   Yeah, agree. I heard a good podcast (Nerdette) on this episode about how characters just keep making the same damn mistakes over and over and basically the characters have always been who they are and acted consistently with that in mind, and maybe that’s sort of the point in the end. Yet somehow we are still surprised when these people (not just Jaime, also Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Cersei, etc) do the exact sort of things they have always done – and, well we shouldn’t be! It’s who they are.

   The brilliance of ASOIAF is that it’s a very tragic story that manages to give you hope throughout unlike S8. I ain’t got no hope left.

   I think we will still be able to “dream of spring” in the end. There are still good characters left, many of whom will live their lives one way or another… There’s always Sam and Gilly and little Sam!!

10. All of you who say that she went mad really did not pay attention.
    Dany is not mad ! She actually is the most lucid character.
    Right after she helped saving the North, she started losing all her allies.
    – She correctly saw that the reveal with Jon will create 2 sides that will lead to war and destroy them. That is why she is “begging” Jon not to tell.
    – Jon is Ned Stark 2.0 and can’t see 2 steps ahead of him; tells her sisters.
    – Sansa betrays her launching the chaos that Little Finger thought her so wel how to do.
    – Tyrion makes the same mistakes and expects different results.
    – Varys is trying to find the perfect ruler “good luck finding him”; “Who said anything about him”. All the kings he supported got overthrown by war, with a lot of innocent victims.
    This for Dany was never about winning. Winning is easy. It was about ruling. The only option left was ruling by fear. She actually says it.
    The only character that learned from her mistakes is Dany. She had to make sure that this is The Last War ! And she did.
    Had she stopped when the bells rang, it would have not been the last war. Westeros would have had more of the same, as all characters acted in the same way.
    This was the last war. Everything that Westeros was in the past is no more.
    If Jon has now some smartness in him, he will bring the LOVE component together with the FEAR that Dany brought. The people will love Jon and fear Dany. The perfect balance, Ice and Fire. The sweet spot/feeling we are all waiting for.

11. The Pop toy setup – Is that Sansa at the back just stuffing her face full of cake??

    Hell yeah!

12. People complaining about Jaime turning his back on the King’s Landing populace – he didn’t though. Cersei was not a threat to the city. By the time he meets her it’s all over and there’s nothing he can do but comfort her in the final moments.

    That said, I still didn’t like it. But redemption is not for everyone. Jaime wasn’t comfortable with Brienne – he looked haunted, knowing he wasn’t worthy of happiness. So he did the only other thing he knows to do. Humans are like that – we trap ourselves into our own corners, repeating bad patterns, rarely able to see our real choices.

13. “Do you think it’s honor that’s keeping the peace ?
    It’s fear ! Fear and Blood !”
    This was The Last War…

14. Iul,

    * “tells his sisters.”
    * “Little Finger taught her so wel how to.”

15. Great discussion. I love that we can still have this kind of rationale after this divisive episode. Y’all are the best.

16. The roof the roof the roof is on fire, follow the leader leader follow the leader.

    Come sing with me

17. QueenofThrones,

    > I just cannot figure out how to rationalize why she did not attack the RED KEEP FIRST. It contained her greatest enemy.

    Unless she wanted to torture Cersei with fear before destroying her (as a revenge for Missandei). With all the scorpions taken out, she didn’t need to destroy Cersei right away, from the military perspective.

    But, yes, I have also come up with rationalizations for all the other actions. And I wonder which punishment Tyrion is going to get, considering he failed the test she gave to him (“do not release your brother without my consent”), which she expected him to fail, if you look at her face.

    Iul,

    Maybe the love and fear (Jon&Dany) could have worked if she didn’t burn one million people first. How it’s going to turn out bittersweet now, I don’t know. I expect bitter or more bitter. The best I can think of is Jon exiling Daenerys to Dragonstone, like he did with Melisandre (her KL mass murder balancing her help in the North), this cycle of killing should stop at some point…

18. Iul: The sweet spot/feeling we are all waiting for.

    This would be awful though, not sweet or even bittersweet at this point.

    Jon would be miserable being married to someone he neither loves nor respects and simply lives in fear of.

    Dany would be miserable being married to someone who cannot love her and having no other friends or confidants. We see how miserable she was since Ep 4.

    Most importantly, absolute monarchy/despotism would continue – so people would still suffer. The wheel would keep turning.

    Also I agree with a lot of your Dany analysis but for the fact that she burned the smallfolk of King’s Landing instead of Cersei. Which is irrational.

19. Iul,

    I feel like you may get very disappointed this sunday. Sure you might end up right, but honestly that hope for Jon & Daenerys is at this point very reminiscent of all my hopes for Daenerys, Sansa, Arya, Jon, Jaime, Tyrion and maybe more in the last 3 years. And all those hopes got dashed.
    So my advice: Do not get attached to your version of the events.

    QueenofThrones,

    Wait, so would you consider it plausible that had Jaime managed to save Cersei and they made it to Pentos or wherever, he would still leave for Brienne in case he heard she was in danger? That Jaime would basically end up in this perpetual state of worry for both Cersei and Brienne that he would want to protect both?
    Hmm, that’s an interesting thought I might be able to live with. Jaime didn’t just leave Brienne, he just had to take care of his “other family” first.

    QueenofThrones,

    I did point it out in some other thread as well. It truly seems the message of GoT at this point is that bad people cannot change for better and maybe even that good people can change for worse.
    But with all due respect, that is nowhere near causing a bittersweet feeling. That is downright depressing. That is pretty much the worst message I can think of for a TV show to have after years and years in the making.

20. fdr,

    “Maybe the love and fear (Jon&Dany) could have worked if she didn’t burn one million people first. How it’s going to turn out bittersweet now, I don’t know. I expect bitter or more bitter. The best I can think of is Jon exiling Daenerys to Dragonstone, like he did with Melisandre (her KL mass murder balancing her help in the North), this cycle of killing should stop at some point…”

    Jon will not last 6 months on the throne/ in charge. He will get killed for doing the right thing (as he already has been) – Ned Stark style.
    I’m sick of so much bitter (especially last episode) so something sweet needs to come.
    Dany deserves to die for her action, but Jon also died. In Game of Thrones “the point of no return” does not exist. People thought the Targaryens are gone, then the Starks were gone, the Baratheons were also gone. Not anymore…
    Another thing, without Jon and Dany together, the Targaryen Dynasty will be over. Very strange thing to happen in George’s world.

21. At the dragonpit a truce was reached, ceasing hostilities until the competing armies could unite and defeat the Nightking. Cercei lied, but Jaime kept his oath and fought for the living. After the Battle of Winterfell was over, what right does Dany have to detain him? By all rights, he should have been allowed to go back to the city unencumbered.

22. QueenofThrones,

    “This would be awful though, not sweet or even bittersweet at this point.
    Jon would be miserable being married to someone he neither loves nor respects and simply lives in fear of.”
    He still loves her.

    “Dany would be miserable being married to someone who cannot love her and having no other friends or confidants. We see how miserable she was since Ep 4.”
    Aegon the Conqueror was in Dany’s situation. He came a said: “bend the knee or burn”. Some bend the knee, others burned.

    “Most importantly, absolute monarchy/despotism would continue – so people would still suffer. The wheel would keep turning.”

    People did not suffer because of absolute monarchy. They suffered being collateral victims in the continuous wars and rebellions the country had. This is supposed to be “the last war”. That’s how Dany sees it, at least.

    “Also I agree with a lot of your Dany analysis but for the fact that she burned the smallfolk of King’s Landing instead of Cersei. Which is irrational.”

    She burned all her enemies “root and stem”. Had she burned only the scorpions, the golden company and the red keep, it would have been enough to win; not enough to rule by fear. She wanted to rule by love. She could not. “Let it be fear then”. No other character is fit to do what she did. She did not like it. She will face the consequences, almost certainly.
    I very much wait for her first close-up in ep. 6. I want to see her state of mind.
    Maybe we will get a cold opening with her close-ups during the KL barbeque.

23. TOIVA,

    “Iul,

    I feel like you may get very disappointed this sunday. Sure you might end up right, but honestly that hope for Jon & Daenerys is at this point very reminiscent of all my hopes for Daenerys, Sansa, Arya, Jon, Jaime, Tyrion and maybe more in the last 3 years. And all those hopes got dashed.
    So my advice: Do not get attached to your version of the events.”

    Of course we can have “A time for wolves”. But for George to destroy the Targaryen Dynasty he so much loves, is strange. There is no point of having Jon a Targaryen, if with Dany gone, there will be no more Targaryens. Baby Jon + anyone else will be 25% Targaryen. This does not make sense. I want the end to make sense.
    Also, the child theme very much present in the last season and this season will go down the drain…

24. TOIVA: Wait, so would you consider it plausible that had Jaime managed to save Cersei and they made it to Pentos or wherever, he would still leave for Brienne in case he heard she was in danger?

    Jaime is extremely impulsive and driven by emotion, so yeah I would imagine so. Jaime at the stage he leaves for King’s Landing probably does not think this is likely to occur, however. Brienne is as safe as she could be as Sansa’s protector in Winterfell. The AotD was an existential threat.

    Sean: After the Battle of Winterfell was over, what right does Dany have to detain him? By all rights, he should have been allowed to go back to the city unencumbered.

    Oh come now – Dany and Cersei are at open war. Dany has every right to imprison Jaime if he’s going to help her enemy escape / join her enemy, which is exactly what he was doing as it turns out. Not to mention Cersei just took Missandei prisoner and executed her.

25. If Jon and Dany get back together this Sunday, Jon is an idiot for going back to that toxic relationship.

    And for people thinking Dany’s snap is not done well:
    – Maybe the snap was before, and she already had it on her mind right after Jon/Dany scene. Maybe she talked about it with Grey Worm.
    – As stated before, I suffer(ed) from Anxiety disorder which I think Dany suffers from too if I see how she reacts to for instance Jon. And can tell from personal experience, a snap like that is always sudden and out of now where, most of the time there must be a trigger and most of the time it is about the biggest fear you have (with Dany it’s being alone I think, combine that with being at her parents home it make sense). I also think she suffers from Bordeline which is logical after her childhood and her betrayals at a young age. And maybe a form of PTSD after arriving in Westeros and more the last month she had in the north/ losing her friends, being isolated.
    – So I think it’s better for some fans who think that it didn’t make sense. Look at the psychological illnesses she can suffer from and looking up information about that. But if this is the case, I hope George, D&D going further in that in interviews and I hope the explain things better in the final itself.
    – Mental illness combination with leadership is not a good combination.
    – Dany always wants love for her actions of good, she expects that, that can make her happy (As shown at the end of season 3), but that’s also a trap for when you don’t get it. Happiness from your work/leadership must come out of yourself internal, not external from others.

    My conclusion up until now: Season 8 is great compared to many other shows out there, it gives us no other show ever gives us. There are some small problems with the season that for instance season 4 didn’t have. Pacing of the season is good, that’s why the episodes on their own are brilliant. But there seems to be missing some scenes between the episodes itself. Like the journey Dany underwent between episode 4 and 5. That was something I wanted to see.
    So having 3 episodes instead of 1 episodes of episode 4 would have worked better.
    And episode 1 and 2 should have added a little bit more scenes to make it 60/70 minutes long.

    For the rest I’m happy what we got.

    Who is to “blame”: Nobody in my eyes. the directing was great, the acting was great, the visuals were great, the music was the best, every other that worked on the show were great. D&D are over where maybe the problem lies and HBO. HBO wanted to have more episode so that was not a real problem. D&D I personally think they always wanted to put the best to the screen for the fans that could be delivered. So what could have gone wrong:
    – Maybe the faults that arises was them rushing to the end.
    – Maybe it was done deliberately for a reason we as fans can’t think of.
    – maybe they decided to skip some parts because else we needed to have a 20 minute episode that didn’t work.
    – Maybe it would have fucked up the structure of the season by having to end episodes in a very strange way. I mean they really avoided the classical cliffhangers where we felt “Are they going to make it?” or “Who will win you see next week, and have next week be 10 minutes max about that problem”
    – Or maybe the parts were put in the scripts but not filmed because of money issues.
    – Or maybe the parts were put in the script and filmed, but cut because it didn’t work or because HBO wanted max a 80 minutes episode. So what if the scripts would have made some episodes 90/120 minutes and that was too long.

26. He still loves her.

    Fraternally, maybe (Though after seeing her murder 100,000 innocents… probably not that either)??

    They’ve done all they can to demonstrate that Jon will never desire Dany sexually again – he is physically revolted when attempting to engage with her physically, even though he tries to.

    Iul: People did not suffer because of absolute monarchy.

    *EXTREME SIDE EYE*

    Iul: There is no point of having Jon a Targaryen, if with Dany gone, there will be no more Targaryens.

    Actually Jon being revealed to be a Targ is not at all necessary for a Targaryen restoration if that was the plan. Dany would have just won, Dany and Jon get married (since they are in love and don’t know they are related) and it would have been more of the same ol’ Targaryen dynasty.

    I am hoping the point of the reveal (plot wise, and perhaps Bran/TER’s intention also) was to create a war to end all wars, and to bring a new era to Westeros. This wouldn’t have happened if Jon had not been revealed to be a Targaryen.

27. Axechucker:
    Great discussion. I love that we can still have this kind of rationale after this divisive episode. Y’all are the best.

    No, you Axey!!

28. QueenofThrones,

    To quote Ross from Friends, “But we were on break!”

29. TOIVA: I did point it out in some other thread as well. It truly seems the message of GoT at this point is that bad people cannot change for better and maybe even that good people can change for worse.
    But with all due respect, that is nowhere near causing a bittersweet feeling. That is downright depressing. That is pretty much the worst message I can think of for a TV show to have after years and years in the making.

    I see what you’re getting at. But like, isn’t the point rather that the idea of “good people” and “bad people” is inherently flawed? That “redemption” as such is a lie? People don’t have “arcs” and there is no score chart with good and bad that needs to even out and the you are “redeemed”. People have personalities, values, and histories. People sometimes they do horrid, selfish, cruel things, and sometimes they do glorious, wonderful, brave things. Sometimes people are driven by rationality, cold calculation, or cleverness, sometimes they are driven by rage, or despair. Usually several things at once. GRRM always said he agreed with Faulkner – “The human heart in conflict with itself” is the only compelling story when you get right down to it.

    As for whether people can choose to change… well now we are in the realm of arguments about free will. Could Jaime have chosen to stay with Brienne? I personally believe in free will, so I think so, but I also think that because of his values, and his history, he would have forever regretted allowing Cersei to die alone and afraid, so that explains why he did not make that choice. Could Dany have chosen not to burn King’s Landing to the ground? I’m going with a firm yes on this. However, I think it would not have mattered to her ultimate fate. She may have made the same calculation, and therefore decided to let her rage consume her for the short-term catharsis it provided.

30. Thanks, Axey, for collating these for us. It must be a tremendous job. Maybe fun, but still trmendous. So I appreciate your effort.

    My favourite is the gif of a monkey gingerly making his/her way through some flooded (natural disaster, geddit?), with the strapline “Cersie getting the fuck away from Cleganebowl.”

    It actually made me laugh outloud, in the real world, instead of a written “lol” in acknowledgement of something funny in the make-believe world of the interwebs.

31. QueenofThrones,

    Westeros year 300 and something, not 21st century democracy:
    What is the cruelty difference between Aegon’s Conquest (bend the knee or burn) – Tragedy at Harrenhal and so on, with the barbeque that Dany did on KL? Also, Arya worships Visenya, a key player of the Conquest. I’m curious to see her reaction…
    Let’s not forget that Jon’s betrayal is key in the Dany fear factor decision. Dany through cruelty kind of solved a problem created by Jon’s stupidity, honor, combined with Sansa, Tyrion and Varys’s actions.

32. QueenofThrones,

    Actually, they’ve done everything possible to show how wrong Jon was by rejecting her sexually and how many things can be solved with their marriage. In Westeros, aunt-nephew is not incest (abomination). See Fire and Blood book by GRRM.

33. Iul: how wrong Jon was by rejecting her sexually

    Umm what? That’s very… rapey…

    It’s actually impossible to be “wrong about rejecting someone sexually”. Consent matters. If you don’t want to have sex that’s the end of it, period.

34. Thanks Axey! I hope there’s a part 4 in the series finale (girl can dream, right?).

35. Iul,

    > Dany through cruelty kind of solved a problem created by Jon’s stupidity, honor, combined with Sansa, Tyrion and Varys’s actions.

    Which problem? That she absolutely needs to sit on that ugly chair herself, even though she claims that she wants to break the wheel? She could have also told Sansa that she understands that the regions want more independence, but that in her view the Queen should protect the common people from the local lords, but that they can come together after Cersei is defeated, and settle these issues. But that wouldn’t have been her, I guess (I was really not against Daenerys, it’s just that’s she’s a hypocrite in this respect).

    I don’t follow the theme that Jon’s parentage reveal makes it impossible for Daenerys to reign. He’s honorable enough to refuse the throne (they can’t force him to rule, just as Daenerys can’t force him to physically love her), and Aemon did that too. At least, that was the case until he saw what she did. Now he may start to think it’s his duty to protect the people that she could consider as enemies.

    About the marriage and baby hints: I wouldn’t be surprised if Daenerys were pregnant after all, and Jon is “forced” to marry her because he doesn’t want a bastard, but I don’t see why Daenerys would suddenly want to marry him, if she didn’t already want that when he was still a Snow. And this would really cause Jon to be in conflict with Sansa and Arya, except if he could claim part of the power (i.e. as a King and not a consort).

    They also hinted at Jon being a Stark and a Targaryen (like he said to Theon) but right now it seems more like a Stark or a Targaryen, especially if Sansa would ever provoke Daenerys again. Ironically with Daenerys wanting him to be a Stark (both in name and physically) and Sansa wanting him to be a Targaryen in name. And if Daenerys decides to kill Tyrion for treason, I think it will be over for either her, or all the rest. If she forgives him and sends him away, it could perhaps still end in a bittersweet manner.

    The only “good” thing of this shock is, for me, that as a viewer one is forced to reassess Daenerys her past actions and avoid to have cognitive dissonance and respond with denying what one saw happened. But I would still like a final message that violence is not a solution (though it for sure doesn’t go away by ignoring it). I don’t want anyone to kill Daenerys, neither Jon nor Arya, they should have a court and banish her.

36. fdr: The only “good” thing of this shock is, for me, that as a viewer one is forced to reassess Daenerys her past actions and avoid to have cognitive dissonance and respond with denying what one saw happened.

    I don’t think we need to reassess Dany’s past actions. Some of those were good, and some of them were not good. Doing an evil thing now doesn’t retroactively make everything she she did suspect. I think Dany absolutely was sincere when she said she didn’t come to Westeros to be the queen of the ashes. She absolutely was sincere when she said that she would bring freedom to these people, as she did in Mereen.

    The heart of her tragedy, to me. Is that given the power to do so and the right provocation, someone who has done great, altrustic things, with the best of intentions, can another day commit an atrocity.

37. Iul:

    … Also, Arya worships Visenya, a key player of the Conquest. I’m curious to see her reaction…

    Arya as a young girl might’ve idolised Visenya as an unconventional warrioirish woman with a dragon, but I have no doubt she now sees anybody with a dragon in a very different, in a very bad light. Life is not a story or a song, this is real. This is horror.

    Also, it’s not only Jon’s fault the Westerosi see Dany as a foreign conqueror, with her foreign armies and her dragons. It’s not Jon’s fault the people of Westeros don’t give Dany what she craves and desires, their love and adulation. She got so used to it, got on a high on it (just watch the “Mhysa” moment).

    Dany cannot deal with the smallfolk, the nobles, the lords not loving her, not seeing her as their saviour. She can’t deal with people loving Jon more than her. She can’t deal with her “coming home” wasn’t triumphant and greeted with universal love and acclaim, people cheering and loving her, as she was used to in Essos.

    And, for Dany, anybody who doesn’t love her, adulate, revere her, is an enemy. And we’ve known for years what she does to her “enemies”. That’s why she burned the KL innocent, they didn’t rise up against Cersei for her, love her, admire and adulate her. They never would, so they were her enemies and could be summarily incinerated. Also, to demonstrate her power and instill fear and obediance in the lords of Westeros. Disagree and burn.

    I’m really scared for Jon, Tyrion and Arya, they’re there. Next scared for Sansa (probably Dany’s #1 target after Jon), Bran, Sam, even pregnant Gilly, who unravelled the whole secret, let’s not forget that. Even Davos, Brienne, Pod, anybody loyal to the Starks. Actually most of the named characters, our favorites, are in grave danger from Dany.

    Grey Worm shouldn’t be discounted. After losing Missandei, he is ready to go full Targ for her, or even on his own for revenge.

    He just did. We actually saw it. Bells rang, Dany went on a rampage, GW took his cue from her. He had nothing to lose. He’d already lost Missandei, all his hopes and dreams, his humanity. He wanted to punish anybody and everybody who took it away from him.

    The Unsullied are taught the three spears and the short sword. They kill puppies and babies as part of their training, to ensure all humanity is erased. Only 1 in 5 survive the training. Their strength is their inhuman infantry discipline.

    Let no-one tell me the Missandei/Grey Worm romance was boring filler. It was touching, it was beautiful, and it’s paying off now.

    That’s why Grey Worm’s and Missandei’s slow burn romance was so important. It showed how Missandei and GW slowly gained back their humanity that was taken from them. They gained their humanity back, even making lame jokes with Tyrion in Meereen.

    Grey Worm gained real human emotions, like love of Missandei, wish to protect her, retire in Naath with her (GW, or D&D, are unaware of the butterfly sickness, native Naathians have immunity, outsiders succumb and die in a month or two.) Or anger, revenge, when she was taken away from him, so summarily executed by the evil queen Cersei, and what the fuck does this matter, kill, burn them all!

    I’m leaning more and more towards thinking Dany and Grey Worm had already decided to sack and burn KL, Tyrions pleas and suggestions of a more diplomatic solution fell on deaf ears.

    It’s heartbreaking to see characters we quite like, care about, to turn to collective punishment, revenge, fire and blood. In the same episode that our favourite mass-murderer Arya seemingly turns away from the path of revenge.

    Please, please, please, Arya. Forgive me all my snide remarks of super-Arya, ASNAWP, whatever. Could you just do this one thing? With all your training and skills? Please? You know it’s the only right thing to do. You saw what’s she’s capable of, you saw the result, and she won’t stop at KL. Also, give a good whack to the head of your stupid brother/cousin and tell him Sansa was right!

    Isn’t wishing Arya to kill Dany a regression of Arya’s revenge arc, which got such a beautiful end with her moment with Sandor? No. Always before, Arya’s hate and anger has been very personal, towards individuals that have hurt her or her immidiate family or friends, very personal. After what Arya saw in KL, it’s not personal anymore. It’s not about stupid revenge, it’s about humanity. Useing her skills not for personal revenge but for the greater good… like she already once did. I almost won’t mind super-Arya. I’ll hate all the ASNAWP fans gloating and going nah nah nah afterwards, but maybe that’s a small price to pay.

    Also, killing Dany isn’t the end all be all. There’s Grey Worm and the Unsullied and the Dothraki. And a huge dragon. Oooops.

38. QueenofThrones,

    Rapy? They love each other! Truly! Do you think Jon feels raped by Daenerys?
    Hope Jon realizes how much damage his actions/ no actions have caused.
    I’ve just re-watched season 8 only Dany’s story. Things make a lot of sense.
    And yes, she was certain she will barbeque KL as soon as she said “let it be fear”. During the bells scene, she was gathering the courage to do it. I don’t think Aegon the Conquerer had such a moment before barbequing Harrenhal, during night time, when all the inocent were asleep.

39. QueenofThrones,

    Yeah I see. Obviously I was trying to use the terms “good” and “bad” people very loosely, but I get what you mean. Nobody is intrinsically either, and depending on circumstances, may end up perpetrating both good or bad acts.
    I would still really like for the show to have a more positive message. I gotta say though, this leads me to rethink the so oft used term “bittersweet”. The way I’ve always understood it (before I started ignoring it – it was omnipresent) was in regards to the characters. As in, some will survive, but many favourites will die or be permanently damaged (psychologically). Now thanks to you, I’m reconsidering the term to mean what the message of the story is. Frankly, that’s depressing. I think I may need to get to my happy place and weather the finale in it…

    EDIT: Lol, now I see why I was so willing for more characters to die in the Long Night. Characters are not important, they are the “bitter” part when they die, but it’s all worth it if the story has an uplifting message, the “sweet” part. Gosh I was stupid…

40. Iul,

    Jon loved Daenerys and tries to reassure himself of it. But he no longer does from the moment she begged him to keep secrets. And she went downhill from there. Everytime Jon is with Daenerys now, he can only think of the terrible things she does. Among other things, that seriously tempers his sexual appetite…

41. Iul,

    You miss the point.

    you said “show has shown us how wrong Jon is to reject her sexually.”

    There is no “wrong” reason to reject someone sexually. Wrong would be to keep pushing after being told no. Which to her credit Dany does not do. She says “it will be fear then” because she cannot have the love with Jon. Not his fault.

42. talvikorppi,

    > I’m really scared for Jon, Tyrion and Arya, they’re there. Next scared for Sansa (probably Dany’s #1 target after Jon)

    First Tyrion. Daenerys gave him a choice (“you can help your brother and betray me”) and he made it. She already realized the chance was high he was going to betray her, if you look at her reaction.

    Next, Jon or Sansa. Grey Worm will inform Daenerys he stopped following orders and did not want to kill their enemies (he gave Jon a very ugly look). But Daenerys could be more interested in an oath of fielty by Sansa. Maybe she wants Jon to write the letter to her to come down from Winterfell.

    > Their strength is their inhuman infantry discipline.

    “When they put cities to the sword, they will only do so if you order them”

    > I’m leaning more and more towards thinking Dany and Grey Worm had already decided to sack and burn KL, Tyrions pleas and suggestions of a more diplomatic solution fell on deaf ears.

    I think this is clear. Her reactions to Tyrions proposal of the bells was almost like how Sansa swore to Jon.

    > You saw what’s she’s capable of, you saw the result, and she won’t stop at KL. Also, give a good whack to the head of your stupid brother/cousin and tell him Sansa was right!

    Let’s see if Daenerys can manage to forgive Tyrion, Jon and Sansa. If so, then I think that killing is not the right answer. I fear for it (but if they can give Cersei some human side in the end, they should give Daenerys too). And Jon was right to seek allies, initially. Nobody would have survived the NK on their own. And Daenerys should realize that too. If she dies, Jon should be nearby, because Daenerys needs some final words, and she hasn’t interacted much with Arya.

43. QueenofThrones,

    Well, the good actions were good, but some actions that I qualified as “justified means to an end” before, I think I want to reassess those.

    I’m not sure if in real live there has been a mass murderer who has been that much concerned with the well-being of the suppressed, even postponing her life goal for it (4 years in Meereen but the attack comes when the rearguard is still arriving) but in the GoT world I can take it. D has always seen the world as “with her or against her”, so it’s not impossible. Jon is more “live and let live”. I guess that’s the conflict of the final episode, both views don’t go together.

44. QueenofThrones,

    Not the best choice of words…
    I wanted to say that it was also Jon’s actions that led to “let it be fear”. This led to the KL barbeque. It’s the same as Ned Stark’s actions led to war (of course there were other things also), the same as Robb’s actions led to the Red Wedding and so on…
    “Think of the past 20 years… the war, the murder, the misery, all of it because Robert Baratheon loved someone who did not love him back”. This message is actually for Jon. Replace “did not love” with “could not love”. The solution is so, so, simple…
    I hope Jon is smart enough to realize this. Problem is Dany already told him that. And he still did not see it.
    Rewatch the scene right after “let it be fear”, the dialog Tyrion-Dany. Basically, Tyrion represents us. Don’t murder the innocents… Does Tyrion win that reasoning dialog/duel ? Dany is not mad at all…She’s as sharp as she ever was. She is right. Then Tyrion gets stupid like “call of the attack”; like this was about winning… Then he gets really stupid trying to save Jaime…Brilliant dialog though. Tyrion is Tyrion… totally in character. Will he get executed for this ? “Tens of thousands of innocent lives, one not particularly innocent dwarf. Seems like a fair trade.” Now, the tens of thousands already died. So what’s the use of the innocent dwarf to also die ?
    This episode is not that bad, is it ?

45. fdr:
    QueenofThrones,

    Well, the good actions were good, but some actions that I qualified as “justified means to an end” before, I think I want to reassess those.

    I’m not sure if in real live there has been a mass murderer who has been that much concerned with the well-being of the suppressed, even postponing her life goal for it (4 years in Meereen but the attack comes when the rearguard is still arriving) but in the GoT world I can take it. D has always seen the world as “with her or against her”, so it’s not impossible. Jon is more “live and let live”. I guess that’s the conflict of the final episode, both views don’t go together.

    I think people – especially idealistic you people – can break bad in astonishing ways. I believe that these 18 year old mass killers we have more and more of were a few short years before innocent kids themselves, who hoped to make the world better, to be heros themselves.

    Then they get corrupted and radicalized in one way or another, typically are not only homicidal but also suicidal, because they feel wounded – the world hates them and they hate the world. So why not burn it.

46. fdr:
    …
    Let’s see if Daenerys can manage to forgive Tyrion, Jon and Sansa.

    Uhm… Can Tyrion, Jon and Sansa forgive her? Or just about any other named character left besides Grey Worm?

    OK, there’s still one episode to go and things can happen. But… Jon forgiving a massacre of innocents?

    Or maybe he does, for the greater good or something, and this is the “subverting the trope” GRRM had planned all along. That the “hidden prince” trope is bumkum (and I can agree with that). Or that “the hero” is not an unambiguously good guy. We’ve been seeing this ambiguity all along in all the characters, through the whole story.

    I’m just really at a loss as to what the “sweet” is in the “bittersweet” ending. I dunno. Maybe the smallfolk are better off being ruled by an overpowered tyrant that keeps the lords in check, preventing them from fighting amongst themselves (fighting = loss of smallfolk life and livelihoods, human suffering). Huh? Is that the message?

47. Iul,

    So Jon should just suck it up and be Dany’s sex-toy, pretend to love her, feed her ego, because if he doesn’t, innocents are going to die. Riiiiight…

48. Iul:

    Of course we can have “A time for wolves”. But for George to destroy the Targaryen Dynasty he so much loves, is strange. There is no point of having Jon a Targaryen, if with Dany gone, there will be no more Targaryens. Baby Jon + anyone else will be 25% Targaryen. This does not make sense. I want the end to make sense.
    Also, the child theme very much present in the last season and this season will go down the drain…

    And a Targaryen restoration is a good thing because…? The Targs are cool and awesome?

    Sure, GRRM is fascinated by them, he wrote a whole 700-page book about the first 130 or so years of their rule. A book that is full of wars and betrayals, internecine fighting, dragons torching castles (with not only soldiers but innocent civilians inside them).

    Sure, there were a couple of pretty good ones. Jaeharys the Conciliator, who forced the Faith to make the doctrine of “Targaryen Exceptionalism” because he wanted to marry his sister.

    Maybe it’s all foreshadowing for Jon and Dany… But Jon doesn’t want to marry his aunt. He’s eeeeked about it. However, Jon is a concilliator. But Dany is no Alysanne.

    I dunno. The Seven Kingdoms were fighting amongst themselves all the time before the conquest, and in our story (GoT TV series) were at it again after the central authority collapsed. So a central authority could be an answer (the North can avoid wars in the south, barricade themselves behind the natural defences of the Neck and behind Moat Cailin, and hold off, like they did to the Andals – it won’t work if the enemy from the south has dragons, as Torrhen Stark saw.)

    So a central authority, with maybe a Declaration of Arbroath or Magna Carta type check on the monarch, a proto-parliament of lords (no, Westeros is not ready for democracy) could be a way forward. I doubt we’ll get anything as complicated in the last 80 minutes of this show.

    Does it have to be a Targaryen – after the atrocity that Dany just did, the name is pretty toxic. But I can’t really see anybody else bar Jon, being a central authority. But Jon’s problem is that he’s a Northener through and through and his claim rests on the say-so of his tree brother and his best friend (actually Gilly) finding it in a book – not exactly overwhelming evidence. So the lords of Westeros will disagree and fight over it, unless Dany torches them.

    What a message to give. Tyranny by fear is a good thing?

49. Thanks for the compilation and supplemental commentary, Axey. So much hilarity coming from so many virtual directions! This collection is just the tip of the iceberg. What an entertaining week!

    Ah…remembering the days of singular storms, like #indigo

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