Last week, Liam Cunningham traveled to Bangkok in order to promote Game of Thrones, and a local publication got a particularly insightful and funny interview from the actor who portrays Ser Davos Seaworth. Cunningham discussed Davos’ journey throughout the show, the painful deaths of Shireen and Stannis, and who should sit on the Iron Throne —and who actually might, which is an entirely different question.
SAYS got to sit with the actor and asked him about everything from the show’s appeal to the dreaded last supper with the producers. The following are only some choice quotes:
“What’s interesting about Davos is that he has remained the same,” Cunningham said about the Onion Knight. “I mean that in a good way – his loyalty, his decency, he’s got a conscience, he will stand up and say, ‘No, this is wrong. You can’t do that.’ He doesn’t care if it’s his life in danger and I think, in a way, he’s almost like the voice of the audience. There’s a lot of morally ambiguous people on the show, so you need some characters to put their hand up to speak up for the audience like Davos and even Samwell Tarly, who are kinda like the ‘conscience’ of the show.”
That’s not to say Davos has not had to suffer through a lot along the way, including the deaths of his son, his princess, and his king. And it was difficult for the actor too: “I really miss working with Stephen. Stephen Dillane is a wonderful guy, a magnificent actor. I’m a big fan of his, so I wasn’t happy when they killed him. Very unhappy.”
Though Cunningham very much misses the man who portrayed Stannis for four seasons, in terms of characters there is no doubt about who he misses most: “Shireen. I was sitting in my little room at home with a big pot of coffee and the door locked, and when I read that scene I just went, ‘WHAT? You gotta be kidding me! Noooo…!’ I couldn’t believe it.” And it’s not just the character he wishes was still around, but the actress as well, as is attested to by the following absolutely enchanting story of the farewell between Cunningham and Kerry Ingram, who played Shireen Baratheon:
“I love doing those scenes with [Kerry], she’s a brilliant actress. When we said goodbye, I didn’t know she’d bought me a gift but I had a gift for her – a silver Irish-made stag like the one I gave her in the show. When I gave it to her, she pulled out a pillow and it had a stag embroidered on it. She also gave me a book that said ‘Grammar for Dummies’. She’s got a bit of a sense of humour, that girl.” That’s just so incredibly adorable!
Nevertheless, Cunningham does not oppose these decisions creatively, however tragic the outcome. As he put it, the explicit sex and violence are a crucial part of the show:
“[Not showing the sex and violence] would be patronising and condescending to the audience, it would be treating the viewers as if they’re not as intelligent as they are. For example, the death of Shireen. I’m in a show that shows the burning of a child! It’s a horrible thing to show, but it was necessary to show you how dangerous chasing power can be, how it turns the mind of a father and mother to do to their own child.”
That’s enough about Davos’ past and the many deaths he had to endure. What about the future? What’s next on the game of thrones? Who will sit on the Iron Throne?
“Carice van Houten [Melisandre] was asked that question awhile ago and I have to agree with her. She said, ‘I would like to live in a world that was ruled by Samwell Tarly.’ But she said there’s no way that’s gonna happen, and I think she’s probably right!”
“It looked like the guy at the beginning of this, Tyrion [Peter Dinklage], would be the right man for the job, but he likes [drinking] a little bit too much”, the actor continued. “I think Jon Snow would be good, but he doesn’t strike me as someone who wants to. He’s had power thrust upon him. He never asked to be king, it was all the other people in the North who made him king and he has a responsibility to his people. But with this show, who knows who’s gonna end up a king. It could be anybody. Or nobody.”
There you have it. If Cunningham is right, it should be Samwell, but that’s too happy an ending for those who are paying attention; it could be Tyrion, but as practiced as he is perhaps he is not that stable; and Jon would make a good king, but he wouldn’t want to take that mantle. Or perhaps nobody at all will sit on the Iron Throne! Perhaps there won’t be an Iron Throne to sit on by the end of this story! What say you, dear readers?
Hodorista
Hodora
Hodorina?
I’m Mary. — Fine.
I think several of the cast have said “convert to a parliamentary democracy”.
I honestly think something like that might happen. Not exactly a parliamentary democracy, but certainly a primitive form of it. I expect it to still be a monarchy, but with a powerful Greater Council (a parliament) instead of just a Small Council, representing all the kingdoms and peoples therein, as well as a primitive constitution — probably something simple, more like the Magna Carta or the Bill of Rights than what we understand a constitution to be today, but still an important document and a powerful council that together ensure no king or queen can destroy the stability of the kingdom because of their own instability. An anti-Mad King system, basically.
And it wouldn’t come out of nowhere. Daenerys already has put some of these ideas into practice in Slaver’s Bay, now the Bay of Dragons. When she leaves Meereen, she leaves the Second Sons as a police force — but not in charge, as some people misremember. An ELECTED group of former slaves have now formed a governing council. That’s a big deal. I doubt the democratic system will go as smoothly in Westeros, but I do expect more representation of all the kingdoms and all the classes in Dany’s kingdom, if she does sit the throne.
Every time we get quotes from Liam it reminds me of how much he sounds like one of us. He’s a mega giant fan and has the same kind of thoughts and hopes for what is going to happen, and struggles with the sad stuff that has already happened. As fans we couldn’t be more blessed to have him in the cast.
I wonder if Braavos is supposed to be a kind of symbolic USA.
I miss the Davos and Shireen conversation scenes so much! They were a great duo and so adorable on screen.
I think the Maesters will be in control somehow. The magic will be gone and an age of enlightenment will be starting. A crude form of a constitutional monarchy would fit in with this theory
Luka Nieto,
I really like that idea, it’s a good way to limit future generations of corrupt or crazy ass leaders. Almost like Knights Of The Round Table lol
Liam’s relationship with Kerry sounds so sweet I love it. I will always miss what a amazing connection Davos and Shireen shared.
I think the White Walkers will do such a number on Westeros that it will pretty much be completely uninhabitable. The surviving characters will have to sail off to find another land to settle in. Perhaps to the West, as Arya mentioned in s6e8.
BigMac,
I don’t think so. I think the white walkers are supposed to symbolize the enviro threat i.e climate change.
Ig Stark,
GRRM has repeatedly said that is not the case when asked with that question,he doesn’t like to mirror modern society as much as people think he does . He also said the same thing about how the seasons work in the series,people just see things where they aren’t there .
Ig Stark,
Not violent enough
To WoW:
Great article, as always.
But aren’t some of the countries in Essos already limited democracies? In the books, some deal is made of the fact that one of the major countries is having a big election coming up. Only a small fraction on the populace can vote: but most modern democracies that “evolved” from non-democracies did so incrementally: from one rich white man, one vote to one person one vote.
Magic has nothing to do with the basis of power in Westeros. Yes, it exists: but it is really a novelty that nobody harnesses in any meaningful way. If magic goes away from some reason, then it will have no effect on the power structure of Westeros. It certainly would not pave the way for the Maesters to take over!
At any rate, if this were leading to the Maesters taking over, then there needed to be some setup for this. The show has given us nothing so far: and at this point, it’s a bit too late.
I don’t think that it is quite so simple or direct an allegory. For one thing, when GRRM started this series in the early 1990’s, the extent to which humans were causing climate change was not fully appreciated even among scientists: there still were some legitimate scientists questioning this until the end of the 1990’s. So, even if we see more “denialism” of the Walkers coming up, then we cannot even attribute it to that: GRRM was over halfway through the series before “denialism” became a thing.
I think that what the Walkers represent is something a bit different in that they are (like the Daleks or the Cylons) the weapon/tool run amok. However, they differ from even those in that humans are not being victimized by their tool, but instead represent the reason why the tool had to be made. In Doctor Who speak, humans are the Thals, not the Kaleds.
What might become relevant is that the Walkers were made is because the humans were destroying the basic environment in their greed and self-centeredness. Just as humans enslave each other, humans try to enslave the world: and the Walkers basically are a failed tool to stop that. (Of course, the fact that they basically stop everything by apparently inducing major winter might be telling: they are just as bad for most plants as they are for most animals!)
Perhaps no king?
Well yeah – because queens aren’t kings, are they…
smh…
lol
Mickey2093,
Historical or modern, republicans don’t like queens…. 😉
BigMac,
That’s exactly what I said awhile ago. After that battle I don’t think there will be much left to rule. My thought is still about winter itself. Does it end because the white walkers are gone? Does it revert back to regular seasons? I believe winter would become longer each time anticipating the awakening of the Night King. But if he dies what happens with winter? If it completely ends then the survivors might have a chance. If not they’ll need to go where there is food. Like Meereen or any other place in Essos.
Gotta love both the character and the actor.
My take on the whole Walker battle is this; as much as I want to see The Night King and his army of the dead destroy Westeros and kill everyone(with the exception of Tyrion who will be their advisor,advising on…..ummm…he will think of something),I doubt wether they will even make it past the wall.The dragons will most likely burn most of them,the rest killed by the United Army of Westeros,and Bran will do a Jamie Lannister,and kill The Night King by using his powers and stabbing him in the back with an obisidian dagger,and becoming the new King Slayer! But 7 hells,I could be wrong,there could be an ice-dragon inside the wall,that gets released by the horn found by Sam and co,left at Hardhome,and picked up by the Night King.However introducing the horn back into the story at this late in the game seems unlikely.
Luka Nieto,
I personally don’t see such a system fitting with Dany’s character at all. She’s the purest autocrat among the ‘heroic’ characters (and the method by which her power has been obtained and maintained has allowed her to carry this out moreso than any other character in the series; she’s never had to deal with quarreling bannermen who could walk away with her army, for instance, unlike other kings in the series), and has never accepted any check on her own power. You either do it her way (and she’ll hear you out, generally, before she calls the final shot), or she destroys you.
Beyond that, institutional reform has never been a feature of the series (book or show), and to the extent that pro-peasant reforms have been shown to exist in Westeros historically, they have been delivered by the monarchy in the face of the opposition of the nobility (most notably under Jaehaerys I, as well as Aegon V’s subsequently repealed efforts). The problem in those cases has been that the monarchy is too weak, not too strong, and empowering the nobles further wouldn’t help the common man at all.
You know , and this is no spoiler, in the books Braavos is starting to be touched by ‘Winter’. So maybe the various powers , well the smart ones, in Essos are afraid Westeros will become a land of cold shambling hamburger, which would threaten them.
Clob,
Yes, in fact this quote stood out for me in a way, he’s almost like the voice of the audience. Love the character and the actor.
Sean C.,
“[I]nstiturional reform has never been a feature of the series” ???
Jon Snow is the Gandhi of institutional reform. For example:
From S5E5, “Kill the Boy” (Jon Snow and Tormund)
. ***
Jon: “For 8,000 years the Night’s Watch has sworn an oath to be the shield that guards the realms of men. And for 8,000 years we’ve fallen short of that oath. You belong to the realms of men. All of you.”
Tormund: “And now everything is going to change?”
Jon: “It is.”
Tormund: “Why now?”
Jon: “Because now I am Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch.”
***
Tormund: “What would you have me do, Lord Commander?”
Jon: “I’d have you go north of the Wall. Gather the remaining Free Folk wherever they are and bring them back here. I’ll open the gates for them and let them through. I’ll find them lands to settle south of the Wall.”
Varys would be the perfect king simply because he’s the only one who truly cares about the realm.
Obviously the best way for Game of Thrones to end is with an elaborate musical number.
Ten Bears,
Jon doesn’t institutionally reform that Night’s Watch, though. That would involve, say, making the organization operationally democratic, whereas his actual actions (persisting in his pro-Wildling policies in the face of strong anti-Wildling sentiment within the ranks) are the opposite of that. His actions are very much in keeping with top-down autocratic leadership.
The split in this series has always been between noblesse oblige types (the Starks, Dany, Tyrion) and “everybody exists only to serve me” types (the Lannisters, most notably).
Jon is not an ambitionless character, especially not in the books.
Flayed Potatoes,
Ha! Ok so watchers, what musical number should this show go out with? We could go Monty Python with Look on the Bright Side of LIfe?
Methinks there will be no kings or queens of the north or east when the end comes, only Littlefinger paring an apple while snickering under his breath.
And “Grammar for Dummies” — as my Irish friends say, that’s magic.
“Or perhaps nobody at all will sit on the Iron Throne! Perhaps there won’t be an Iron Throne to sit on by the end of this story! ”
I personally believe that exactly what GRRM intends to do. You can say that is GRRM’s way of being solomon.
Sean C.,
Sure he reformed the NW. He just got “killed” for it. Last I saw, the “conservatives” were swinging from nooses and Tormund was dining with Edd and ogling Brienne. If that’s not progress, I don’t know what is.
(But let’s not debate this. )
I hope Kerry Ingram brings her silver stag to Con of Thrones.
Now something like that would make a nice GoT collectible. Not that I’m putting down refrigerator magnets….
Flayed Potatoes,
with tap dancing?
Iam surprised he didn’t put his name on the subject after all him becoming ruler of Democratic westeros is a popular one ..
After the way Season 6 ended with a Queen crowned and taking up the throne and another coming to take it away from her..
Iam surprised we are still talking about only Kings ..
Sean C.,
I agree with what you are saying and I don’t expect westeros to become a democracy myself but I expect there wil be many changes and reforms on the system that currently exists ..
But if it happens it will only be through dany or jon ..they both have showed they will step over the old traditions and can see the bigger picture and make necessary change. .
Unlike Aegon V Dany has the advantage of the power which aegon V wanted so much to enforce his reforms…
Also, Daeny has been on the “powerless” end of the spectrum. Ditto that for Jon & Tyrion. Prior reformers might have existed, but they were Champagne Socialists compared to people who really have been treated like tools themselves.
B,
No one is saying Jon has no ambition, he does. But having read all the books, I got the distinct impression that he would hate to be King, especially if that involved Kings Landing and the snakes surrounding it. As a child, Jon wanted to be Daeron, a warrior King but I think that had to do a lot more with the warrior part than the king part. Jon hates the theater of politics, the pretense. If at times he felt trapped by his title of Lord Commander, imagine how much he would hate having to seat that Iron Throne while surrounded by the likes of Littlefinger and Varys and Pycelle? Jon has ambition but I doubt it involves being King of Westeros.
Question for the thread
Apart from Cersei and Renly
Then
LF and book Varys ( who wants to pull the strings while his puppet take throne )
Who else is actively seeking IT just for the power and wanting to become king .
Wimsey,
Yes and I would like to add arya to the list as well
Such an awesome man
Luka Nieto,
A parliamentary monarchy. Possibly a parliamentary elective monarchy (yes, those existed). With a set of founding papers and an independent judiciary. I’ve been saying – and wanting – this for years.
Westeros is simply too big for a democracy yet, especially since the great majority of its population is illiterate. But if the putative parliament includes – as the European ones traditionally did – the likes of representatives of the faiths, mayors of the largest cities; the Maesters, too, I suppose – that would already be some sharing of power, and could pave, in due time, way for a full democracy.
So, let Daenerys finish her reforms, please.
ash,
I’m thinking a Hamilton inspired number and at the end they crown Lin Manuel Miranda as king.
thorne garnet,
Only if Ghost tap dances too.
Lol at you guys thinking this will end with any form of representative government. GRRM himself said that the ending will be bkttersweet. So there will be a defeat for the Others and a good king/Queen will sit the throne, but I expect our many of our big protagonists to be killed. So Fany, Jon, the dragons, etc. they’re all on the chopping block. I’d go more into what I think of a certain book theory that hasn’t really been mentioned in the show still playing out, but I’m not sure if that would be a spoiler and I don’t know how to hide it.
BigMac,
In the West they will hit Asshai and YiTi which are already inhabited.
Luka Nieto,
Yes! Not to mention, to simply jump at Democracy as we know it would be the greatest stretch and more than unlikely.
Either Jon or Dany will come up with some sort of Parliament withe representation from alls ectors of society and the idea that everybody has to agree to some written rules, as to prevent absolute power…after the war is won and before most of the heroes die!
Sean C.,
I agree that institutional reform is not a fitting end to this story. I expect that Jon will be the king in the end, and Dany will die.
Bollywood style 🙂
Yes please! With all the surviving characters wearing matching outfits and performing perfectly synchronized dance numbers to catchy music 🙂 .
dragonbringer,
Good point. Arya not only didn’t treat “common folk” as expendable, but from the outset never even considered them as “inferior”, eg Mycah. (It seemed like nobody else gave a s-it that the butcher’s boy lost his life.)
And of course, she had the shared experience of being treated like fodder when she posed as “Arry” and saw the horrors that “peasants” endured.
She didn’t consider Lommy as “expendable” either.
She would make a fabulous leader, but I doubt that’s in the cards for her. (Though my “bittersweet” ending for Arya is that she winds up as “the Lady of Winterfell” or Queen in the North; instead of sailing off to explore new places, she’d be marooned in Winterfell, constantly reminding people “Do NOT call me ‘My Lady’!” or “Do NOT call me ‘Your Grace’!”)
I’d also add Davos to the list. He’s risen in stature and power (he’s King Jon’s de facto Hand, isn’t he?) , but he’s never forgotten where he came from. His “Flea Bottom Boys” jailhouse conversations with Gendry showed that. Davos also recognized early on that the Wildlings weren’t disposable savages; they just happened to be born on the other side of the Wall.
Was it Varys who observed that it’s the common people who suffer when “you high lords play your game of thrones”? Dany needed Tyrion to remind her of that when her first impulse was to return the Masters’ cities to the dust.
(Casualties in necessary wars are a military reality; slaughtering civilians to send s message – see Tywin – or genicide is another story. )
Edit; “genocide”, not “genicide”? (Why does Auto-Correct consider some gibberish words to be real words, and fail to recognize misspellings of real words?)
I really miss Stephen Dillane. And Tara Fitzgerald and Kerry Ingram.
A dysfunctional family but outstanding actors!
Is there one example in all of Essos or Westeros of a parliamentary system or any sort of democray? I don’t think so.
The end will be a benign good King or Queen. Looking to end slavery does not mean a monarch has to give up power.
Flayed Potatoes,
It may very well need to end with something dazzling like an elaborate dance number.
Six years ago, in April, 2011, GRRM implicitly assured there will be an unambiguous, satisfying ending: He threw down the gauntlet, excoriating Damon Lindelof for the crappy ending to “Lost”, saying he wouldn’t want GoT to “do a Lost”, and intends to give GoT a “terrific” conclusion.
Here are some of GRRM’s statements from April, 2011:
Excerpt from April 19, 2011 Time Magazine, “GRRM Interview Part 3: Twilight Zone and Lost”, by James Poniewozik
Re: Martin’s disappointment with the ending of “Lost”
***
GRRM: “I did watch Lost. I watched Lost in its entire run and I was fascinated, but you know, even as early as the second season and certainly the third season, I started saying, how the hell are they going to pull all of this together? If they pull all of this together, it’s going to be the greatest show in the history of television, man. They’d better know how to pull all of this together. And then when I reached the end and they hadn’t pulled it all together, in fact, they left a big turd on my doorstep? I was pretty upset, you know.”
——————
Except – Martin’s New Yorker Interview (quoted in April 5, 2011 EW article by James Hibberd) re: Endings of “Lost” and GoT
****
GRRM: “We watched [Lost] every week trying to figure it out, and as it got deeper and deeper I kept saying, ‘They better have something good in mind for the end. This better pay off here.’ And then I felt so cheated when we got to the conclusion.”
(Hibberd: “Martin also cites the Lost ending as the type of
mistake he fears making with his own show”):
GRRM: “I want to give them something terrific. What if I fuck it up at the end? What if I do a Lost? Then they’ll come after me with pitchforks and torches.”
—————
PS. Sorry so long. I couldn’t abridge this without zapping the whole thing.
In the books, there are elections taking place in one of the major Essosian cities (Volantis, I think) while Tyrion is there. Only the wealthy are allowed to vote, of course, but most “naturally evolved” democracies begin that way. Bravos seems to have some limited democracy as well. Interestingly, there do not seem to be many established monarchies in the east: most of the cities are ruled by councils, it seems.
One thing to keep in mind in this and nearly every other “epic fantasy” is that one of the most unrealistic things about the world is the prolonged stasis. Given how long these cultures have been around, they should have started to evolve things like industry. That sort of economic republicanism accelerates political republicanism, of which democracy is one form: when wealth is no longer completely controlled by inheritance, power no longer can be completely controlled by inheritance.
We get hints that this “old money” vs. “new money” tension does exist in Westeros. However, given that none of the major characters represent the mercantile class or are struggling to figure out how to accommodate that class, it is much too late to make that a major part of the story.
Where this might become important is that “Tory” reformers tend to be much more the Champagne Socialist sort (i.e., well-intentioned, but not truly understanding the plight of the downtrodden), whereas “Whig” reformers can be more of the Molotov Cocktail Socialist sort. Daeny is already in the latter category. This might affect what she does if she establishes herself in Westeros before the clash with the White Walkers starts.
dragonbringer: Yes and I would like to add arya to the list as well
Indeed! Arya never is sold off the way that Daeny and Tyrion (and, in a way, Jon) are: but she basically is told that she will be sold off when she’s old enough. Bran fits into this in a very different way: because he’s crippled, he’s been “enslaved” by handicap and a society that associates strength of body with strength of mind. Tyrion’s line about “bastards, dwarves and broken things” really applies to all of the Big Five protagonists: after all, a woman is just another broken thing in this world.
Ten Bears,
Its very hard reading that interview and can’t help but think how much it feels like he his talking about his own series ..
Just replace lost with ASoiaF there..at least the lost gave us an ending however disappointing it may have been..
I have come to realize the endings are always disappointing in one way or another ..
In recent times the only ending I loved and had not been disappointed was the ending of PSYCH ..and it ended three years ago .
What makes the ending good (or bad) is the foundation: what GRRM had back in 1992 was what will make it good or bad. “Tweaking” it now will be like adding lip-gloss: if it’s a pig, then it’s still a pig, and if it’s a super model, then it’s still a super model.
And, at this point, GRRM has already seriously reduced his degrees of freedom. It’s too late to go back to the first book and establish characters who an be important at the climax. It’s too late to go back and delete things that make some new idea feasible. One reason why we have this added delay for Winter might be because GRRM decided to go ahead with a late-conceived twist for a major character: and that no doubt required[s] a lot of surgery to find the plot-holes, plot-lapses and idiot-plots it created for the other narrative lines.
Meereen, currently.
I did not find it particularly disappointing: but, then, I did not have any “dogs in the race.” That is, I was not predicting a particular ending.
This is where I think that disappointment arises: people predict a particular ending, and then get angry when it does not happen. We saw that big-time with the Harry Potter series 10 years ago: a lot of fans became very emotionally invested in their predictions proving to be correct. (And, to be blunt, a lot of their predictions were really bad, being based more on “conspiracy theory” rationalization rather than just using what Rowling laid out in front of the readers.)
You can bet your bottom dollar (and your top one, for that matter: or pounds if you use those!) that the same thing will happen here. A lot of fans have invested a lot emotionally in very different finales: and a lot of those posited finales suffer from a lot of the same “missing the forest for the trees [and those were cacti, anyway!]” flaws that the wrong Harry Potter ideas had.
Which city had the Elephants vs. Tigers political parties? I seem to think Volantis, but I don’t remember for certain, and I’m too lazy to Google it…
Wimsey,
It was volantis ..
Tyrion and jorah stays there and thats how we come to know about elephants and tigers ..
Really? I thought that the entire final season was “exhausted”: it really felt like they were just going through the motions to end the series. Of course, the other big difference was that Psych sometimes had season-long arcs, but it did not have a series-arc. All it really needed to do was give us a good finale: there were no long-standing “mysteries” to answer or major “unfired guns” that had been hung on the walls, either for plot or character development. Series like Battlestar Galactica, Lost, X-Files, Babylon 5, etc., all had those. (And, of course, book series such as Harry Potter.)
Ah, thanks. That is what I had thought, but I was not 100% sure. It occurred to me that it might have been Bravos: sword dueling was considered a form of campaigning, and it probably brought Syrio Forel to mind.
The one semi-major character that had any mercantile success was the High Sparrow – the shoe business he built up was so successful that he was able to purchase a new lifestyle, which ended up frightening him and disgusting him to the point that he stopped wearing shoes himself. Then he decided he would dictate everyone else’s life. Instead of learning to handle his success and the money he made or make any adjustments to the things he purchased or the people with whom he associated, he did the opposite. No progress there.
Wimsey,
Yeah I had that feeling too particularly from James Roday himself ..there were times when it felt like he wasnt even trying and I love him so much as Shawn
But as you said it didn’t have a series arc and when I said ending I was mainly speaking about the finale..
Dexter can be another example which declined in the last couple of seasons and that last season and finale were very difficult to sit through..
For me one of the great mysteries in recent years has been was that of who is Red John in The Mentalist and simon Baker was pure brilliance …I didn’t have that much problem when it is finally revealed who it was but there was such a huge disappointment the fandom..
https://twitter.com/GRRMspeaking/likes
I’m really glad that GRRM appreciates my favourite meme too lol.
This is an age-old problem. Around 25 years ago, the show Lois & Clark (which was one of the best takes ever on the Superman Mythos) ran into this: how long could Lois Lane & Clark Kent not hook up? They dragged it out as long as they could: but after they did hook up, the major “tension” was lost.
One thing that I think GoT did well on this score was Jon’s mother. It’s been there in the background since the very beginning, and we’ve gotten constant reminders: but it never has been a “target” or “end-goal” they way that, say, having a couple finally hook up is. When we did learn, it did not deflate anything in the same way (except, perhaps, for the 5 remaining Dayneites out there! 😀 ) Daeny returning to Westeros could go that way: but given that it’s probably going to be a messy affair, and given that the Walkers probably will soon become a greater issue, I doubt that will happen.
Yeah, but remember, that is B&W’s fan-fiction. In the books, we all know that he’s actually Howland Reed….. [end sarcasm]
Wimsey,
True, Volantis has voting between the elephants and Tigers if I’m not mistaken. Like you said though only higher class people can be elected. Plus Volantis is a slave city, so no democracy there for a while. I dont remember Brasvos minus a Sea Lord ruling it, will have to read up again.
Closest thing to democracy that I can think of is the Nights Watch, with the Lord Commander. They’re a very small group though and not a kingdom. But no way does Dany travel around the world to re-establish her family’s rule only to hand over part of it to the masses.
heh, as the history of the United States shows, you can have democracy and slavery at the same time! Interestingly, several slave-states in the US restricted voting to only land-owners (and people owning certain amounts of land) much longer than some northern states, where being white and male was enough. If I recall, South Carolina did not even let people vote for US president until shortly before the Civil War: their state senate chose the electoral college members. (People, or at least white men with property, did get to vote for state senators, which made it an indirect limited democracy.)
The issue has been going from limited democracy to full-democracy: and even then, one can argue what “full democracy” means.
Ser Not Appearing in this Series,
Yes, tho I do like the Hamilton style number, and with taps!
Wimsey (sorry having computer issues)
And like Moonlightint and Castle, tho the latter not only lost the tension, it lost the thread to the story and everything unraveled
Wimsey you made the comment about industry and middle class – If you are talking about actual industries (with factories and such) Id agree – cultures that are so old must have wanted to find cheaper or faster ways of doing something. I do think in GOT there is a middle class, and its composed of the craft people, traders, merchants, ship builders.
Wimsey,
GRRM is going to have to eat some serious crow (pun intended) if after all this time he does “do a Lost” and leaves a ___ at our collective doorstep.
In another portion of the 2011 interview [excerpted below], he said he’d already determined the “ultimate destination” of the story and the fates of principal characters like Jon, Daeny, and Arya. I have to assume he told the “ultimate destination” and fates of the Big 5 (6?) characters to B&W a long time ago.
Personally, I don’t think he’s got the energy or the incentive to introduce new twists and do all the “retroactive surgery” it would take to modify the ungainly beast. I sense that he dreads writing TWOW, and wouldn’t have the inspiration to change the “ultimate destination” even if he realized it was garbage [to use a nicer word than the one he used for Lindelof’s ending to Lost].
In any event, we’ll a be getting a conclusion from the show next year. From the books? Never. (Does anyone really think GRRM will ever publish ADOS?)
—————–
Excerpt – From Apr., 2011 Time interview (re: the ending of ASOIAF)
***
“I know the ultimate destination, I know the principal landmarks and things that happen along the way, like [big event redacted] which had been planned from the beginning and all of that. But some of them I discover in the writing. Essentially I know the big stuff, but a lot of little stuff occurs in the course of the writing. And of course some of the little stuff is very, very important. The devil is in the details. The devil is what makes the journey more than just an outline or a Cliff’s Notes kind of experience. So I may know the ultimate fates of Jon Snow and Daenerys and Arya and some of the other principal characters. But I don’t necessarily know the ultimate fates of Dolorous Edd or Hot Pie, you know. Well, I have a few ideas about those, but still.”
I would definitely agree with this – although the scene in 610 answered a lot of questions, it didn’t answer all of them. What was the name Lyanna whispered in Ned’s ear? Did Rhaegar and Lyanna have some sort of marriage ceremony that would make Targaryen loyalists consider Jon legitimate? That said – while it clearly is him – they didn’t spell out that Rhaegar is the father.
They have been drip-feeding us information on it since episode 101, and not a season has gone by without some sort of reference to Jon’s parentage. Although the audience now knows who Jon’s mother is, Jon himself has no clue and is not in close proximity to anyone who knows the truth – this leaves us with 13 more episodes in which Jon will presumably learn the identities of his mother and father, and react to it. So there is still more to come on the subject of Jon’s parentage.
I’ve often wondered about Arya’s ultimate fate, especially given GRRM’s comments about the ending and Arya’s love of travel and curiosity about lands to the west. If certain spoilers about S7 are true,
dragonbringer,
I do not watch that many TV shows, but was very satisfied with the ending of Breaking Bad.
Yeah, those are other examples. I am sure that there are lots of others: Lois & Clark came to mind because it was a bit more “fantastic” than the others. (What made the show work is that it dealt with the human side of such fantastic powers exist.)
Yes, there is a mercantile class, and it seems that in some cases, they have a lot of money. This comes up a little in the books: despite their wealth, the “merchant princes” are considered commoners by the Westerosi nobility. Historically, we saw the same thing in much of Europe and parts of Asia. It was not until the advent of industrialism that the money-making classes really got enough sociopolitical clout to insert themselves into positions of lasting power. And it did not happen overnight: one thing that Downton Abbey used was the tensions between the capitalists and the floundering aristocrats 100 years ago.
I don’t think that this will ever come up on the show. In the books, it’s nice because it provides a backdrop for different events. (It also is relevant to Book!Robb’s wife and why Tywin thinks that her family can be used against Robb.) However, it is very much a background detail: it is not a major issue that demands some sort of resolution. Somehow inserting this into the show would have elevated it’s prominence so much that it probably would have seemed like something demanding a resolution,
I think that it was pretty obvious to the audience who the father was: if nothing else, then what other options had been presented to them before hand? I think that the one thing that might be up in the air is: was Lyanna a victim or accomplice? It supposedly is relatively common for women to reject children conceived by rape, but that is not guaranteed by any means. Still, the fact that Lyanna wants Ned to protect Jon makes it much more likely that she was a willing accomplice: and given that Ned didn’t snuff Jon early, it makes it even more likely that Lyanna somehow communicated that to Ned quickly.
The issue of legitimacy is a separate one: nothing Bran saw offers any insight about that. Again, my bet is that it will be Sam who will uncover some document at the Citadel: insofar as we can see, that is where such information would be reposited.
Wimsey,
I’ve wondered about that: how and why would information about Jon’s legitimacy be reposited in the Citadel?
Who would’ve put in there, and when?
I’ve got a crackpot hypothesis that would explain how it got there, but I don’t know if that “theory” would comply with or violate your avatar’s law of parsimony.
Plus, most of the theories I’m aware of postulate that there’s some kind of evidence of Jon’s parentage and legitimacy in the Winterfell crypts, or in the possession of Howland Reed.
Wolfish,
*Must…not…click…on…grey spoiler-coding….*
I resisted. As much as I want to know about Arya’s fate, I still want to avoid S7 “spoilers” if they come from script “leaks.”
However, if they’re merely based on actors’ geographic locations, especially on-location Instagram photos posted by the actors themselves, that’s a different story.
Can you specify which of the two is under your spoiler coding?
Ten Bears,
Script leaks about characters (not Arya) who might be captured and/or die in S7, leaving a major void in leadership in a certain part of Westeros. Hope that’s not saying too much.
Au contraire, I think it should end like Blazing Saddles. Your choice for the two riding off into the sunset, though for me it would be Arya and Gendry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjCWIdo07zU
Wolfish,
Thanks for the clarification. I know not to click on the grey. ? As long as it doesn’t involve Arya, I wouldn’t be interested anyway.
Wolfish,
Yeah Breaking Bad was one of the only shows that I have watched that ended on a real high. It was also one of the very few shows that only kept improving with the passing seasons.
Another show that I was satisfied with was the Wire. Even though the last season was probably the weakest overall, I still liked the conclusion.
I may be bias….but I would like to see an onion embossed on the King’s Guard armor…but either way OKdc…
Okay. I can’t be the only one who is confused AF by the juxtaposition of Davos’s feelings towards the Red Woman. He hates her (rightfully so). He hates her. He hates her. Jon Snow is dead. “Hey, uh, even though you’re going thru this huge crisis of faith and I don’t buy into the gods thing, you mind speaking in high valerian and resurrecting this dude? Cool, thanks.” Jon Snow is back, so now he is back to hating her. I get why he doesn’t like her. Rightfully so. But last season kinda contradicted the Red Woman is ultimately evil, unless we need her.
Also, I’m calling BS on the wooden stag making it from the pyre. Unless there’s some Targaryen wood species in the North.
Anyways, I’m beyond starved for season 7. And I really hope every episode is no shorter than an hour–titles and credits not included.
Winter is here.
I don’t think I usually have as much of a problem with how my favorite shows end as I do with the fact that it’s just the end. My disappointment/depression that it’s over makes it difficult for me to enjoy the ending too much. There’s always the “then what happens” issue for me. Breaking Bad on the other hand wasn’t too bad for me. That one felt like they ended it at the perfect time. I don’t believe there is an ending that GoT can do that will prevent the depression of it being over… 🙁
Extra Stark, Please,
I’m actually in partial agreement with you on the Davos/Melisandre relationship and I’ve mentioned this before on WOTW. Davos hates Mel as well as magic, but randomly asks her to resurrect Jon Snow even though Davos really doesn’t know Jon Snow very well nor does he have any specific reason to ask to have him resurrected. I didn’t understand why, of all people, Davos wanted to have Jon Snow brought back to life.
Extra Stark, Please,
They needed a shortcut for how the book will do it, since Davos is clearly absent at the Wall for the moment in the books, vainlessly looking for Rickon, and their shortcut cut a little bit too short. In my imagination, Melisandre hears of Stannis’s dead at the Wall and after the scramble she will sacrifice Shireen to revive him aka AA but is accidentally reviving Jon instead (even though I think Daenerys is AA, but not for Melisandre at that instant). Luckily, contrary to Beric and especially LSH (“what death can do to people”), Jon has still recollection of his former memory because his mind hid into Ghost (the right place for a king) in the meanwhile, and his body was well conserved. It would also be some kind of poetic cruelty that Jon lives because Shireen died.
Btw I still respect and like the series adaptation, e.g. I do appreciate the adaptation of Jon trying to save Rickon, mimicking the Purple Letter, as some other commenters already observed.
And to no-one in particular: I’m also not sure if Jon actually needs to be registered somewhere as an official Targaryen, perhaps the remaining lords of Westeros (if any left) will just appoint him as the new king, by virtue of virtues, like the Night’s Watch and the Northern Lords did. Or he dies in GRRM’s Ragnarok.
fdr,
If I am not mistaken, D&D have said that Stannis burning Shireen is something they got from GRRM himself. It won’t be just Mel burning her to revive Stannis, it will be Stannis’ decision. And this makes perfect sense in terms of Stannis’ arc for me, that all his burnings and near burnings finally lead to this, a failed sacrifice of his daughter. It is the perfect tragic end to his story. Of course the circumstances leading to this event will differ vastly in the books.
I want Liam’s take on Stavos slash fic.
ghost of winterfell,
I agree it fits Stannis his tragic arc in the show, but unfortunately it complicates Jon Snow’s resurrection and the Davos/Melisandre relationship (and fireproof wood). I don’t mind the books to differ from the show in the details. Perhaps they could have left Davos out (or simply lamenting about Jon’s death) and have Melisandre act solely on a vision or something.
Anyway, if the Pink Letter is true in the Books, Stannis is already dead. Even if he isn’t, he’s a long way from the Wall and winter is coming 😉 And if I remember correctly, I also thought that in the books he wanted the war to be continued for his daughter in case he would die, and Stannis doesn’t look like the type to change opinion easily.
Clob,
Yeah, I’m anticipating major depression when it’s over. Not only do I love the intricacy of the world GRRM has created and the show has adapted, it’s also the first time I’ve ever been actively involved on a fansite. I’ll really, really miss the discussions here!
Nothing makes me happier than an interview with Liam. Except chocolate cake. Or cheese. Or a fantastic red lipstick. Really though, he usually says what I think but in a much better way.
I miss Stephen and Kerry too, Liam.
It made perfect sense to me. Remember, Davos had just lost his only son, Mathos in the Battle of Blackwater. He admired his son greatly, was very close to him and felt responsible for his death. Yet there was nothing to do to bring him back. He also already knows Shireen is gone, though he doesn’t yet know the method. Another young person he genuinely loved, lost to senseless violence.
Now comes young Jon, a very capable, likeable responsible young man who respects Davos and his council. Davos is aghast Jon is killed by treachery, and doesn’t want the helpless feeling that there’s nothing to be done, when he KNOWS there is something that might be something.
I never questioned him going to Mel, I would have been surprised if he hadn’t.
Not even a mention of Jorah? Lol, I like Liam too, and am hoping that he makes it through. There has to be at least a few older people with good heart and good sense left at the end of this.
Same for me, as well. – I figure there will be at least a few weeks of spirited discussion on here even after the very last episode (sob, sniff) so that will keep us together for a little while after the end, then we’ll have to find somewhere else to migrate. That’s going to be a sad time.
Maybe I’m nuts, (yes this is out there) but I think that Alfie Allen/ Theon/ Reek, has been one of Martin’s/ D & D’s favorite from the beginning. The underdog so to speak. He isn’t an obvious choice to win the “Game” but the life progress/ regression he has made throughout his life/ the series, while just under the surface of the major characters and obvious choices, could possibly be the crazy Martin plot twist, take-a-hard- left story that ends him up ruling. It would be bittersweet and an odd choice for sure, but if you look at the clues, it’s kind of been there all along. You never know with Martin. Just an idea….
It’s always funny to read the actors’ reaction when they move to a different unit like he did from Unit Dragonstone to Unit CastleBlack or whatever they called the unit that filmed the Wall parts. 😀
Greyhand Stonefeather,
Unless Martin changed his mind, I think there’s a statement out there from him saying that someone will sit the IT.
Mr Derp,
I think they tried to establish in the series since Stannis came at the Wall that there’s honor, loyalty and reasonable leadership quality in John. Stannis talked to him like the son of Ned Stark, a person that though he didn’t particularly liked, Stannis respected. He offered LC the same treatment in his dealings with Jon. Davos was a witness to that, and I think he trusted Stannis’ s take on Jon.
He also knows that the North could possibly rally under a Stark more than any other name, albeit a bastard one (no doubt the letter Stannis received from Lady Mormont a 10 yr old made THAT clear).
Also Jon has the trust of the remainder of the wildlings, unlike any other Westeros person up North.
Add the fact that the Others are coming and Davos believed Jon’s Hardhome story…
Considering all of the above and that he needs the Wall, the wildling alliance and the North to whatever extent he can muster, it’s not a huge stretch to see that Davos concluded there’s only one character who’s connected to all three: Jon. I think he thought he can get behind A Mel resurrection in these circumstances.
Wolfish,
I’m hoping we won’t have to suffer major depression (or painful withdrawal):
I’m 80% convinced there will be a GoT sequel or prequel series on HBO. If WoW’s owners decide to maintain the site after S8, there may still be a place for us to congregate.
In GRRM’s Live Journal back on April 15, 2014, he confirmed there have been inquiries about adapting his Dunk & Egg novellas into film or TV. However, the “complication” is that while he retained all film and TV rights to the novellas, his sale of the ASOIAF to HBO for GoT included the world of Westeros. Therefore, a non-HBO adaptation could be done but references to the Targaryans and other aspects of the world of Westeros would have to be omitted. For HBO to make a prequel or sequel based on the novellas, it would have to buy the movie and TV rights from Martin.
Therefore, it’s kind of a happy coincidence – a “win-win” – that for all practical purposes, HBO would be the one to do any prequels/ sequels, and Martin would get more money.
They kind of need each other to make it happen:
• A non-HBO production would be stripped of the historical background, making it less familiar and less appealing.
• HBO can’t do prequels without paying Martin; and Martin can’t “sell” the complete stories to anyone but HBO.
• It’s as if one has a safe deposit box with tons of money, but the other has the only key.
I would imagine the bean counters at HBO
are eager to keep milking their cash cow, and would be reluctant to just let their golden goose fly away.
Benioff & Weiss need not be involved: There’s a whole generation of assistants and writers who’ve cut their teeth working on GoT for 6 (eventually 8) years, like Cogman and Hill, who could probably take the reins.
GoT has built a virtual mini-economy in N. Ireland, with facilities and production staff already in place. I figure the country, and the hundreds or thousands of local craftsmen, artisans, actors and others who’ve worked on GoT, would be thrilled to continue on (not to mention the positive publicity and economic benefits N. Ireland will continue to enjoy).
Last but not least, there’s already a huge built-in fan base for any GoT-related show.
So long as haggling lawyers don’t muck it up, I don’t see how a prequel or sequel will not happen.
Wolfish,
Also….
Based on the “world building ” and history contained in the show alone (and I imagine there’s much more in the books), there’s enough material to populate a prequel with younger versions of familiar characters from Game of Thrones. I for one would be interested in portrayals of how they earned the reputations we only hear about years later on GoT, eg:
• The smuggler Davos Seaworth and his pirate buddy Salaador Saan.
• The legendary Ser Barristan “The Bold” Selmy
•. The brilliant vixen Olenna (“I was good. I was very, very good”) Tyrell
•. Hard ass Tywin Lannister
• Brynden “The Blackfish” Tully
•. Maester Aemon
TormundsWoman,
Yes. Davos trusted Stannis’s take on Jon; and even before Hardhome, Davos felt that Jon was the one to unite the North.
Excerpts from S5e3 [Davos talks to Jon]:
Davos: He [Stannis] sees something in you. Might not be apparent from his tone, but it’s the truth. He believes in you.”
****
Jon: “I’ve sworn to stay clear of the politics of the Seven Kingdoms.”
Davos: “Have you now? How does the Night’s Watch vow go again?
*****
‘Shield that guards the realm of men.’ That’s what you swore to be. Now I’m not a learned man, but the best way of helping the most people might not be sitting in a frozen castle at the edge of the world. It just might mean wading in the muck and getting your boots dirty and doing what needs to be done. ”
Jon: “And what needs to be done?”
Davos: “As long as the Boltons rule the North, the North will suffer.”
Ten Bears,
Great idea.
Ten Bears,
Good points brought out about why Davos might reverse his negative feelings about Mel and implore her, as he did, to try to overcome her doldrums and attempt to bring back this young man. I covered the emotional reasons and you nailed the very practical ones. I wasn’t at all surprised that Davos would come to Jon’s rescue.
A prequel would not be a good idea, at least not if it was a “prior generation” prequel. Plots should be written around stories, not the other way around: and a prequel has the conclusion of the plot already carved into stone.
A sequel might work, but chances are pretty good that it would not. B5 had a sequel series (the name of which I forget!) that fans eagerly awaited, but only fans watched it: and the series was cancelled pretty quickly. (I don’t think that they even aired all of the episodes!) The problem was that B5 was (like GoT) fundamentally about the characters: and new characters in the same universe didn’t grab people because they were interested in Sheridan, Delenn, Londo, etc., not the B5 universe. It think that the same would apply here: viewers are interested in Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, etc., not Westeros or Essos.
It is possible that the Dunk & Egg series (which is a true prequel, set so far in the past that the very general plot is open to a lot of possible story) might make for a decent series, but I only read one of them years ago: they are not all that easy to find. And, of course, it has the big problem: no Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, etc.
Ten Bears,
All excellent points!!! May you be correct…
I hope you are correct in your calculations. My only objection is to your dismissal of Benioff and Weiss. They, to me, are the godfathers of this marvelous adaptation of the novels. Even if they are finished with the show, I’m sure the new show runners will still look to them for help. ?
But Melisandre is not evil. Davos does not like her and does not trust her (or at least did not at that time): but he knows that she’s powerful and that she seems to genuinely believe in her cause.
At this point, Davos has a passionate hatred for Melisandre, and that is quite understandable: but that was later. Ultimately, I would not be surprised if Davos is not stuck in a position where he has the opportunity to kill her, but is in a position where he knows that letting her live will save many more lives. After all, Davos accepted that White Walkers were back because Stannis did: but he does not have the “fear” of them that someone who has actually encountered them has. That probably will change.
Ten Bears,
I don’t see the other writers taking over for another GOT series to be honest. Just because someone is a good writer doesn’t mean they make good show runners and/or they want to take on all that extra responsibility. From what D&D have said they barely have time for their own lives outside of GOT which is why they joke they are gonna sit in a dark room for six months after it’s all done to finally relax.
I could see completely new show runners taking over with perhaps with new writers, perhaps the old ones but they are limited in what they could do, yes they could do “Dunk And Egg” perhaps some political intrigue of the history of Targaryen’s, perhaps the Blackfyre Rebellion but not the big ones like Aegon The Conqueror or the ones with all the big dragons and battle sequences as they would never be able to afford it, that would be better for movie budgets.
The problem is just because it’s set in the same universe doesn’t mean it will be as popular, just look at Battlestar Galactica. It was such a widely popular show but it’s prequel Caprica was canceled before the first season even finished airing and that had some younger versions of the characters on the main series.
Even if you base a show in the same world doesn’t mean it will capture the magic the same as the original series and it can instead do the opposite and fall flat because as a previous poster said it’s the characters that people fell in love with not merely the world itself and the new characters may not stand up to them.
Wimsey,
Oh yeah, I wasn’t expecting this to be portrayed in the show at all; you had just mentioned it, and I thought it an interesting idea .
Bufferzone,
Oh I love it! Tho the Hamilton number is still my favorite
Ten Bears,
Ditto esp Davos, Barristan and Olenna
Ten Bears,
Learning about young Davos, Barristan, Tywin, etc. might be interesting, but making a series out of it would likely fail, imo. One of the great appeals of GoT is that anything can happen. No character is safe. That level of suspense, of never truly knowing who will prevail in any given conflict (or even the end game) is what keeps people coming back for more. I’m obviously simplifying it as the great storytelling, acting, scenery, etc. come into play too, but the real draw is the unpredictability. With backstories on the current GoT characters you mention, we already know they would come out ultimately unscathed from any tension or conflict. That might be ok with diehard fans, but that would be too boring for most of the audience who has watched GoT thus far. That “wait with bated breath, sit on the edge of your seat” element would be missing from such a prequel. I think any successful prequel or sequel would need to be in a completely different era. Ancient Valyria? Andal invasion? Or maybe even the Targaryen invasion since at least there could be some family name recognition.
Geez, I had forgotten that example! We have another test case right now with “Class,” which is a spinoff on Doctor Who. I’m giving it about…. however many episodes they’ve filmed! Doctor Who has a huge fanbase: but that fanbase is not very big compared to the Doctor Who viewership, and I have a tough time seeing this as appealing to many people outside of the fanbase.
Even keeping a single character is not enough. The hugely popular Friends had an immediate sequel featuring one of the characters: and the show didn’t last very long at all.
Well, yes and no: we know that the primary protagonists have to be there until the big “climax” because the whole story is tied up in how they evolve up to that point and how that evolution leads them to do what they do. (This is why protagonists always have “plot armor”: you wouldn’t be writing about them if they were not going to be there at the end.) But…. that big climax can be pretty much anything because it’s not constrained by some other story. So, one or more of the Big Five (or Six) could die then or survive it or whatever: there is no existing story predicated on that ending. Obviously, a storyteller wants to have the basic ending in mind when he/she begins a story: but that ending should be conceived as a way of fulfilling that story, not as a plot device for starting a different one!
Wimsey,
Yes, I agree with that, but, from a pure show (non-book) perspective, it hasn’t always been easy to identify the protagonists…at least not from the beginning of the series. There was quite a bit of misdirection. Also, the antagonists have been just as powerful and end up “winning” just as often. My point being, compared to most other tv series, the show is highly unpredictable. But, you can’t have that with a spin-off series on the backstories of current characters because they’d always survive to the current GoT timeline. There would be little true suspense.
In a sense, yes, there is misdirection, both in the books and on TV. Ned Stark is a classic faux protagonist in both media.
There is one other big factor here, though: SoI&F is in itself an “over-arching” story: but it is composed of at least 5 distinct stories. Characters like Catelyn Tully, Davos and (on TV) Robb Stark are protagonists in individual stories; they just are not protagonists for the entire “over-arching” story. This is one fairly unique trait to SciFi and Fantasy that the rest of literature does not often do: series of stories that themselves combine to tell a story. Because SciFi and (especially) fantasy does not get much credence from literary scholars, people have not really come up with terminologies for “series-long” protagonists like Jon & Daeny vs. “some stories only” protagonists like Catelyn, Theon, etc.
Of course, one other issue that makes recognizing protagonists on TV is that we do not get the simple PoV test. Although not all PoV characters are protagonists, all protagonists are PoV characters: thus, if a character is not a PoV character in a book, then he/she cannot be a protagonist. (This is a classic case of “necessary but not sufficient.”) TV/movie scenes do center on characters: but that centering necessarily is more diffuse and with very rare exception, we do not see who is “thinking” and viewing that scene. And, of course, we lose the subjectivity: a book scene with Sansa as PoV has much less detail (unless feasts or clothing is involved) than a book scene with Arya as PoV. However, on TV or film, they do not make “fuzzier” sets when Show!Sansa is the centerpoint: we see all the details and nuances, even if Show!Sansa does not.
A classic case where that does effect things is when Arya sees Varys in the dungeons. In the books, she sees someone who fits Varys’ description: but she does not know who Varys is. Many book fans argued that it was “too obvious” for it to be Varys: but the show went ahead and showed him! (And, of course, later books pretty much verified that it was Varys, anyway.)
Sorry this is way off topic, but I just realized that Maisie and Emma Watson share the same birthday, 15th of April. Maisie turned 20 this past Saturday and Emma turned 27. Neat
I still can’t believe that little tomboy in the too-big helmet is 20 now!
I’d add in photo shoots with Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and his sexy greying stubble. His AK Club shoot was a gift.
(PS, have you tried Lipstick Queen? Love their product.)
Awwww I love Davos, he’s like a kindly uncle. I know he suspected something wasn’t right and sneaked back into Stannis’s camp to take Shireen somewhere safe. Anyone who tries to tell me otherwise is a big old meanie and la LA LAAAAAA I can’t hear you!
Flayed Potatoes,
If they don’t, I riot! Looks like I’m not alone in thinking that, although people have different ideas about what kind of style, so they may have to have an entire musical episode. There was a discussion recently about what kind of music the Night King would like. I can’t remember if you were party to it but we decided he was nursing a broken heart and that power ballads and seriously heavy/loud stuff would definitely feature.
If GoT ends in a musical number, then my vote is for the Dr. Zaius remix with Troy McClure from the Simpsons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2E1m90YSpA
That’s a funny coincidence… I’m watching the reboot season of MST3K on Netflix and the episode I watched last night was 1974’s The Land That Time Forgot, starring Doug McClure. Doug McClure was of course one of the inspirations for Hartman’s Troy McClure character. Listening to Doug in the movie you totally hear it. It also helps that one of the robots cracks jokes using the Troy/Doug McClure voice as well. 🙂
Clob,
You have excellent taste, my friend.
Man, this site is dead today.
Mr Derp,
Ask R’hllor nicely and perhaps he/she/it will revive the site.
LOL I think we’ve depleted all the energy we could from the subject of Liam for now and are waiting anxiously for the next crumb of info to fall from the HBO table. Hope it won’t take too long. We little birds are starving.. ….. …… … < crumbs – sorry lame attempt at humor. I think I'll go make pancakes.
I like that process better when it involves washing Jon Snow’s young body. I think trekking around on a snowy set is not the greatest job perk, but I have to think Carice couldn’t have minded too much the day she had to “revive” Kit.
Perhaps some jokes will revive the site. Anyone heard the one where three lords walk into a tavern?…a Stark, a Martell, and a Lannister. They order ale……oh wait…nevermind…
Who has the wine? Don’t bring any sour goat’s milk either. I’m from the “grape water” crowd.
Thronetender,
Oh, you Southern twats….
LOl, j/k!
That Tyrion joke was the worst…it has to be on par with the “two weevils” joke from Master & Commander.
Clob,
“I still can’t believe that little tomboy in the too-big helmet is 20 now!”
—————
Ackkk! Where does the time go?
I just looked in the mirror and swear I could hear Meryn F-cking Trant’s voice saying “TOO OLD.”
Mel,
Well, you’re right. There’s no guarantee a sequel or prequel wouldn’t suck, or fail to excite the fan base.
Speaking only for myself, I wouldn’t necessarily need the uncertainty of whether Character X will die to be excited about a show.
I thought Star Trek TNG was a well-made sequel series, even though it was pretty clear Captain Picard wouldn’t die. (Then again, in the Star Trek universe it’s usually nameless ensign in red shirt on away team who dies.)
Also, the knowledge that Ned Stark would be decapitated didn’t diminish my enjoyment of Young Ned at the Tower of Joy.
But who knows? A crappy reboot or sequel can catch on, while a well-made one can die on the vine. (And with so many GoT ripoffs on the air, I’d just as soon watch GoT rip off itself.)
Again, speaking for myself, I’ve been intrigued by the GoT characters who are older when we meet them but are legends in their own time, like Barristan. So before he throws down his sword at Joffrey and the Kingsguard and announces he could still cut through all of them “like carving a cake”; and folks like Jaime, Ned, and Jorah describe him as the best sword fighter they’d ever seen (or were told about), that’s someone I’d like to see in his prime.
Same thing with Olenna. Aside from fond memories of Avengers-era Dianna Rigg, I’d
like to see a show about the young seductress who was “good…very, very good” according to her older self.
And I’m always a sucker for a good buddies-on-the-run story. That’s why I’d tune in to watch the adventures of young Davos the smuggler and his pirate friend Saalador.
PS This is kind of an inapt comparison, but when NFL kick/punt returner Devin Hester played for the Chicago Bears in his prime, he was breathtaking to watch. But watching him play for the Atlanta Falcons last year was like watching old Barristan Selmy get cut down by those goofballs in the Harpey masks.
Given that the “goofballs” were all from the nobility, they should have been very well-trained fighters themselves: or, as Selmy would have put it, “warriors,” not “soldiers.” Learning how to kill people elegantly seemingly was a good way to pass time in such societies.
Ten Bears,
SAME! But then I imagine our girl gouging out Trant’s eyes, and feel much better.
Wimsey,
True. Not I still want to see the guy Jaime called a “painter” with a sword.
I really liked the Arthur Dayne actor (Luke Roberts?) assuming he did his own stunts, because those whirling two swords really did make him look like a legendary swordsman.
Ian McIllhenny (sp?) was a great Ser Barristan and it sucked to see him killed off so soon (too soon, according to the actor).
The show (maybe moreso the books) built up Ser B to be this legendary swordsman. It made me want to see the “war stories”
as they happened.
(Didn’t Star Wars give us a younger version of Obi-Wan Kenobi after “Old Ben” (Alec Guinness) in the first movie?)
Clob,
I know right? I fell in love with her character at that very moment! How in the world did she ever get that old? (I of course have not aged at all during that time..)
Thronetender,
I’ll bet Carice kept flubbing her lines on purpose that day so they’d have to keep re-shooting that scene of her touching Jon Snow’s six-pack abs torso
ash,
I fell in love with her character the moment she zinged that bullseye with the arrow and gave that adorable smile + curtsy. *
* The best part was that Robb, Jon and Rickon were laughing when Bran kept missing the target by a mile, prompting Ned to remind them, “And which one of you was a marksman at ten? … Keep practicing Bran.”
And then while Robb and Jon are coaching him on his next shot …. Zing! Comes Arya’s arrow from behind them, smack into the bullseye. ?
And the helmet scene … And the mischievous flinging food at Sansa scene….
Ewan McGregor played Obi-Wan in the “prequel” films. However, Alec Guiness reprised the part in small roles as “Force Ghost Obi-Wan” in the 2nd and 3rd films.
The Star Wars prequels are good examples of why prequels are almost always destined to fail. The ending was created to start another story, rather than being designed as a culmination of character arcs. As more than one reviewer and viewer noted, they were all plot and no story! Anakin’s “degeneration” to the Dark Side was really forced, and it did not seem to follow from any real coherent evolution of his character.
(The first movie had a mind-numbing “drive ’em away” rate: 40% of the audience did not come back for the next film!)
Ten Bears,
Yes, but wait, wasn’t Rickon like 5 or younger? Not sure he would have been there I suspect Theon was there tho (gonna start my GOT rewatch soon, need to pay attention) But I did forget that shot of Arya. And her food fight with Sansa as she’s flirting with Joffrey
Wimsey,
ayup, I was one of them. Liked the new ones tho. Trying to think of other prequels – I don’t think the new Star Trek counts because its just resetting the original. But perhaps the fact that the prequels are not very memorable proves your theory.
Ten Bears,
I see what you mean, watching Ser Barristan Selmy and/or Olenna in their younger years I personally would find interesting but that is never what they will do a prequel about. Whoever the new show runners will be they will need in depth content about the story to adapt and there just isn’t enough info on Ser Barristan or Olenna. That is why they instead I imagine will do one of GRRM’s short stories/novella’s the biggest one being Dunk and Egg though he has yet to finish that story as well lol. Most of his novella’s and short stories tend to center around Targaryen’s, he focuses on their family history the most out of all the other houses so I imagine that a prequel would too as they have the most content, another thing that could be possible is the first war against the White Walkers and Bran The Builder. As much as we all love our current characters, there just isn’t enough content about their pasts to have another popular viable show with such high stakes so they’ll have to go quite a bit further back to make a possible successful show but also not too showy that their budget can’t afford it.
That’s why it might be better to consider making GOT movies instead so they could have the budget to do Aegon The Conqueror, The Blackfyre Rebellion, Robert’s Rebellion etc They are the stories that people are most interested in but cost too much for a TV budget.
Lulus Mum,
I wasn’t party to that discussion, but I’m 87,65% sure that the NK listens to Jennifer Holliday’s “And I Am Telling You” before going to bed.
Sequels are more common by far. If a prequel is going to work, then it probably will have to heavily “retconn,” which in turn is pretty much guaranteed to infuriate fans! Doctor Who has done this a few times: because the show involves time travel, some of the “sequels” to older stories really were prequels, and all of these wound up heavily retconning things. Fans hated that! (Of course, some more recent fans hate the sequels because they saw the prequel first….)
Any prequel for GoT would definitely require major retconning. In particular, the big conclusions would have to be radically redone so that they reflect the culmination of character arcs for a few key characters such as Ned, Robert or Rhaegar. For example, having Jaime kill Aegon would not work at all unless Jaime was rewritten to be a much more active individual with some arc paralleling that of the main instigators of the war. That would take some pretty major surgery. Similarly, having Rhaegar’s wife and children killed by someone with no particular relationship to him is just much too arbitrary: it would have to be someone with a developed relationship to him. In general, the final deeds of the main players would have to be redone so that there was some commonality to them relative to where the characters were at the outset and at the end.
And, of course, the big question would be: what would the story be, anyway? They would want the arcs of the main characters and their culminations to generate some commonality that we would identify as a story. So, before someone begins retconning, they would need to know what that is! This is a big reason why storytellers usually have arrive at the story and the general ending at the outset: so they can steer the main characters evolution to that point and have what they do at that time make sense to us.
“Given how long these cultures have been around, they should have started to evolve things like industry.”
Dark Age Europe did have manufacturing and industry, but these were either what we would call “cottage industries,” or were organized into guilds — the latter being effectively unions of skilled workers, who naturally opposed automation.
For industry as we know it, one needs some science powering one’s engineering, and science cannot develop in a world which has magic. Magic prevents a naturalistic worldview from developing.
Flayed Potatoes,
Woah, that’s very precise. There’s clearly some serious scientific analysis going on there. Squeeeeee I’ve just looked at your lovely avatar properly and see who the genius behind that was (the glasses give it away). I assume that’s Ghost? I’ve been reading all the spoilers and every scrap of news on here and my favourite thing of all has been the totally non-spoilery fact that Ghost’s real name is Quigley 😀
Do the WWs sleep/rest do we know? They are still presumably at least partly human. And what about the wights? Mind you, they are taking so long to move south perhaps they nap whenever possible and that’s why it’s been taking ages. Like very large, cold, zombie-raising cats.
Flayed Potatoes,
I was part of that discussion. That subthread started with (I forget who) noting that the Night King was betrayed by a woman who stabbed him in the heart, and all he needed was a hug and a cup of hot chocolate. Soon the discussion exploded into speculation of songs he’d listen to or power ballads to describe his heartache.
I had started to compile everyone’s song recommendations into an album play list (working title: “The Night King: Love Songs for a Long Night” *), but I couldn’t keep up with the recommendations that poured in.
There were a lot of witty comments in that subthread. I forget what the actual title of the post was.
* “Ol’ Blue Eyes is Back” was already taken by Frank Sinatra
Lulus Mum,
Did you also know that Quigley and the wolf who plays Nymeria are going to be parents? Talk about fan theories coming true 😛
I imagine they all get leg cramps from marching so much poor things. Maybe they should consider working out to Olivia Newton John songs.
Ten Bears,
This playlist sounds amazing. Do you still have a part of that playlist. I could help you keep track of the recommendations. There’s nothing like a nice power ballad to keep the cold at bay.
*Chuckles as I think back on it* I was part of that thread: https://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-season-8-writing-line-confirmed-season-7-cameo-revealed-sxsw/
It was from the article about the writing lineup for season 8 being confirmed.
True, it would in a world like Harry Potter’s where a large population of people have access to it. However, in Westeros and most of Essos, magic is very rare. There are not wizards wandering around Westeros, for example: magic is known to be real, but also uncommon, and rarely very powerful. (Maesters sometimes try to learn how to do magic, but almost never succeed.) In Essos, Qarth has warlocks: but they were considered to be little more than side-show freaks. That indicates that their powers did not amount to much, and obviously were not hindering technological development. The Red Church can call on R’hllor for powers that might as well be magic: but that is hardly too common. Moreover, the uses of that magic do not seem to be things that would compete with most basic technologies.
Given that, things like industry should have arisen over the centuries unless there have been major collapses of civilization that reset the clocks. We saw that in our histories in both Asia and Europe: but we don’t have any indication of that in Martinverse. Quite the opposite: in Martinverse, these people still hang on to legends that are millenia old and even think that families around now like the Starks were around thousands of years before! That requires a lot of stasis.
Yeah, Rickon was there. He was sitting on a saddle on top of the wood fence off to the side. They show him laughing at Bran when his second shot goes over the wall behind the target.
A prequel covering Robert’s Rebellion is down my list of series I want them to do for a few reasons, one of which has to do with the things you described. My first preference has been the period of the Battle for the Dawn; the long night, the last hero, Azor Ahai, the building of the Wall. The Dance of the Dragons civil war is my second choice. Both of those periods and events have entirely different characters and nothing is directly tied to the timeline of ASoIaF events. While we’ve read/heard about what happened, and what happens has bearing on the GoT/ASoIaF storyline(s) thousands of years and 170 years later respectively, they’d be able to do a show without continuity issues with GoT.
The main reason I prefer those two stories is that one contains dragons and the other has magic, cotf, Walkers, giants, ice spiders, etc. Robert’s Rebellion seems covered enough already in dialogue to me. It would also be devoid of anything magical or fantasy creatures. It would essentially be like a Braveheart style show. That’s not necessarily a terrible thing but it’s also been done quite a bit and I think it would lack the “extra stuff” that has made GoT special.
I get why prequels are so popular. They flesh out the mythology of already-loved characters. A prequel COULD be fun, but it could be an absolute disaster too. Obviously, it depends on a number of factors.
However, if there’s a prequel for GoT, it’s going to be with completely different writers and actors than the original. No more Kit Harrington, no more Emilia Clarke, Peter Dinklage, etc, etc. Besides, they already reflect on the past in the current show, so creating a new show just to fill in any possible gaps is just excessive and unnecessary. At least it is to me, YMMV.
To me, one of the main problems with prequels is that they don’t work like flashbacks scenes do in order to tell us something that we don’t know, such as the Godfather 2’s flashback scenes do. Prequels just tell fans what they already know, working like lengthy footnotes to the original.
Also, new technologies come into play which usually means the prequels have better effects than the originals, which is awkward mainly because people in the past shouldn’t have better looking magic/weapons/whatever than those in their future will.
Actor changes, writer changes, and new technologies come into play until it eventually becomes harder to tell that the latest movie/show in a series has any connection to the one that started it at all.
Any prequel/sequel/postquel will never live up toi the original, so I kind of think that it would just disappoint fans in the end more than anything else.
Speaking of Ian… Did you guys see the trailer for the new Syfy series Krypton premiering later this year? Ian plays a character named Val-El, who is apparently Superman’s great-great grandfather. I think the main character is his grandfather, Seg-El, so Ian will just be the grandfather in this story.
https://moviepilot.com/p/syfy-krypton-first-teaser-trailer/4249493
I can’t think of any great prequels off the top of my head (other than the prequel parts of Men In Black 3), but I can think of several sequels that, imho, were better than their predecessors. Chief among them are The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises; I thought each film in the trilogy improved on the previous installment. A few other favorites are Toy Story 3, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, Before Sunset, and Aliens.
Several excellent points have been made about the difficulty of presenting a prequel as a fresh story, given that people long steeped in the Martinverse would know what to expect from the existing “history.” I’m just beginning to delve into the backstories myself, but to anyone choosing to adapt them for the screen, I would suggest granting viewers unexpected insights that aren’t already part of either the book or screen canon. The first example that springs to mind is how well Jean Rhys fleshed out “the madwoman in the attic” in Wide Sargasso Sea, her astonishing prequel to Jane Eyre. (I’m sure Wimsey or Ten Bears could think of better examples.)
Wimsey,
Keep in mind the series has already surpassed the books and while he may still be involved in some of the writing for the screen adaptation, GRRM has a more marginal wrote in the writing front. It shouldn’t be too surprising that one of the show writers could subtly inject some political undertones in the plot and script that may reflect our current reality. See: “Art imitating life”
That could actually work, given that the story is so long ago that at this point it has to be 99 falsehoods for every truth. In particular, if the climax is very ironic relative to what the traditional tale implies that it is (although we still really do not know what that is!), then it could work.
Of course, one problem would be that a lot of fans would get upset that it would violate “canon”: but, then, in the canon, it’s an ancient legend that many people think is complete fiction; much like our own stories about Troy, the canon of the story and the truth of history would be different.
The big caveat on this would be: the “truth” about Azor Ahai cannot be revealed in GoT. There is that one insane conjecture that R’hllor is what is left of Azor Ahai: and if that’s the case, then it would be as bad as doing a prequel about Anakin Skywalker succumbing to the Dark Side if the original series did something so crazy as to let slip that Darth was Luke’s father…… 😉
I think a discussion about a GoT spinoff came up last year and I still think that the only way a prequel would work is if it’s set a century or two before the start of the events in Game of thrones or else we’d pretty much know the destination which kind of greatly affects the unpredictability of the show…….. personally, i’d love for them to go as far back as the First Men (not sure if martin’s got a complete story there though). And because A sequel story would require venturing into uncharted territories, the writers would have a complete license to take the story in whatever direction they want to.
so yeahh…..if there’s a great story around the time of the first men, they should go for it, and if there’s none, then perhaps a sequel would be a better option.
King beyond the wall II,
I think the first men would be a really cool option, they only slightly mention them in the show so they wouldn’t mess anything up. The problem is whether or not there is enough book content to base it on.
I don’t see them doing a sequel at all however, unless it’s a couple of hundred years in the future. D&D aren’t doing it and they write a fair chunk of the story and the characters, the new show runners might also not employ the writers GOT currently has and without GRRM’s book content to guide them, It would be too obvious other people are making it and it might end up feeling like all other fantasy shows without the uniqueness of GOT and crash and burn.
Um, GRRM is making it up, too: these are stories, not histories! This might sound obvious, but GRRM is not unique in his story-telling abilities; there are many people out there just as good as and even much better than him at doing this.
Wimsey,
•. Collapses of civilizations that “reset” the technological clock…
How about (my pet obsession) the mysterious “Doom” of Old Valyria? In the MartinVerse, nobody can figure out how they forged V. Steel, etc.
• About people hanging onto legends for millennia, and “stasis”:
Interesting you mention this. It’s almost beginning to sound like a trope-within-the-show when characters say: :”House X has ____ for a thousand years.”
As if 1,000 years is the default setting or something.
Wolfish,
About sequels better than the originals…
I’m glad you mentioned “Before Sunset.” I always recommend “Before Sunrise” to friends if they haven’t seen it. They’re either bored by it… or love it. If the latter, then I tell them to check out “Before Sunset.” It’s refreshing to watch movies featuring intelligent people, in which the “action” is propelled by their words (eg, serious emotions shrouded by jokes, initial reluctance leading to gradual disclosures). It’s more interesting to me than “action” flicks with stock dialogue like “Cover me. I’m going in!”; or the tired, standard scene of the hero breaking into the bad guy’s
office computer and anxiously awaiting for files to download as the armed security team closes in.
About “Alien”: I liked “Aliens” (the sequel) more than the original; but I liked “Alien: Resurrection” [4th one?] most of all. I’m not sure why “Alien: Resurrection” seems to have more than its fair share of detractors.
(“Before Midnight” was okay…)
True: but this is a case where I suspect that we will learn that magic is involved. Moreover, one of the old stories probably has the key ingredient:
As to why Valeryia fell, the basic description makes it sound like they built their country on a series of active volcanoes. That’s usually not a good idea in the long run….
Ten Bears,
To be perfectly honest, I’ve never seen Alien: Resurrection. I just couldn’t cope with the franchise after Newt was killed. (Totally senseless to me.)
Agreed on Before Midnight; it was “okay,” but after the sparkling magic of the second installment, a downer. I know, I know… real life and all. But for real life, I have… real life. Sigh.
Wolfish,
Yeah, killing Newt was ridiculous. After all Ripley did to save the kid – after all the kid did to save herself – it made no sense. In fact , that whole movie was awful. But I really enjoyed Alien Resurrection. Joss Whedon wrote it. ( It even has a scene which I suspect inspired the Selyse’s pickled babies scene in GoT.) But most of all, I liked the dynamic between Sigorney Weaver and Ron Perlman, and S. Weaver and Winona Ryder.
Before Midnight was good, but not as great as the first two.
When I rewatch or recommend, I stick with the first two. The ending of Before Sunset is just perfect.
Wolfish,
Wait …. Did I confuse the “Aliens” movies? The one I detested took place on a prison planet, and started (I think) with aliens getting inside a ships’ suspended animation capsules, including Newt’s.
That whole movie was depressing.