Season 6 was a victorious season for Jon Snow (Kit Harington) after his brutal betrayal in season 5. He was resurrected, then reunited with his sister Sansa (Sophie Turner) who helped him win the Battle of the Bastards and retake their childhood home, Winterfell. Finally, in the season 6 finale “The Winds of Winter,” Bran’s (Isaac Hempstead Wright) sight gave fans some long awaited answers pertaining to Jon Snow’s royal parentage.
After all these satisfying moments for Jon, fans began to crave the ultimate fan theory even more. Lucky for us, The Huffington Post asked actor Kit Harington for his thoughts!
“The Prince That Was Promised” is perhaps the largest, most anticipated fan theory of Game of Thrones. In short, the Prince that was promised is a prophesied hero, a legend in Westeros. Before his resurrection, many fans assumed this would be Jon.
So what does Harington himself think of this awe-inspiring theory?
I think you have to wait and see what happens this year, and if we find out anything more about Jon. I think Jon would hate the term ‘The Prince That Was Promised.’ If someone turned to him and said, ‘You’re The Prince That Was Promised,’ he just wouldn’t pay much attention. That’s what I love about him, so I don’t really care about it either. You know, I think that’s what’s great about him. He’s got very little ego on him.
That lack of ego is precisely what makes Jon so fit to rule and further adds to the possibility that he could be The Prince.
Be sure to check out Huffington Post for the full theory break-down!
What are your thoughts? Is Jon The Prince That Was Promised or do we have another twist in the upcoming season? Let us know below!
I LOVE YOU
Hold the door
“…the more you try to avoid it (prophecy), the more likelihood you’re making it true… and I play around with that.” – GRRM
no he can’t be….jorah is azor ahai
I realize this is a very meta comment but Kit is so much like Jon lol.In other important news I love them both so much.
I don’t actually know that TPWWP is going to be a ‘thing’ in the grand scheme….of course I’m very likely wrong, but I mean I’m not sure just how much of that is going to be presented in the end. Perhaps it will be a massive and overreaching major big deal! But it may also be a more subtle idea.
Someone (apologies for not remembering who the person was) called him once “The Kit who was promised”. Very appropriate, I think.
I thought Ser Pounce was the PTWP?
I admit that last season I expected something magical to present itself in Jon that made his resurrection stand out as something more than the “run of the mill resurrections,” like Beric. The greatest moment of that expectation of course was the moment he stood alone on the battlefield facing the charge. Nope.
Pigeon,
I agree, I always thought if the prince who was promised was a real thing it might be more likely a few people that all have aspects of it not just one person. GRRM has said before people take prophecies too literally, from what I’ve heard from him on the past as well he seems to not like the idea of a single chosen one which is why I think Jon, Dany and Bran and perhaps more are all equally important to the end game.
I don’t think the Prince who was promised is a big part of the show, to be honest…. the fantastical elements of the resurrection have been downplayed in the show.. so … in general… the chosen one, the prince who was promised.. etc… hasn’t been a big part of the show, in my opinion. I dunno
This is essentially what I said about Jon many moons ago. If someone were to tell him he was “the chosen one,” he’d shrug.
HOT PIE THE PIE THAT WAS PROMISED
Seriously though, if twtwp / azor ahai OR the three headed dragon is a thing I would be so thrilled, I don’t even care who it is. Currently I’d say Dany and Jon are pretty much tied, though, in terms of the evidence.
On the other hand, it would be GRRM’s style totally to leave it ambiguous who really was “the hero of legend” or if there even was one… Certainly I think some people will be whispering into both Jon and Dany’s ears that they are the chosen one… much as we saw with Stan the man previously. How they respond to that pressure and to each other will be so meaty I can’t wait.
Canon Jon is a different character (and completely different in AGOT/ADWD). He’s not a goodie goodie with no ambition and aspirations. Too bad they completely failed at bringing him to ‘life’ on screen.
Dee Stark,
Yeah most of the prophecies from the books except Cersei’s and even that is questionable if it’s going to go down exactly like the books since they omitted an important part,will stay where they belong,in the books . That is if Martin ever decides to finish them in this lifetime of course .
iainglenfanatic,
Do we know for sure if “Azor Ahai” = PTWP?
Also, on the show Melisandre related the prophecy about the “Lord’s Chosen” or something, in language that’s similar but not identical to the language describing Azor Ahai in the books.
I’m guessing Jon is a 2-1 favorite for PTWP.
If Book Azor Ahai/Show Lord’s Chosen is someone else, and not merely a variation of PTWP, I’ve got a crackpot (show-only) tin foil theory. But every time I try to refute it, all I find is more to justify it. (Probably “confirmation bias.”)
Clob,
Wasn’t it miraculous/magical that no arrow was able to touch him? There was one instance where a bunch of arrows came and landed literally all around him but not one hit him. Also, wasn’t it miraculous that he was not trampled by both cavalries as they clash all around him? In the end though I think most people respect Jon for who he chooses to be rather than because he has any special supernatural powers. I mean in the books there’s more magic to him, that is true but the same magic is in Arya. Bran of course is on a category of his own.
bluefrost,
That’s your opinion,doesn’t mean it it’s true,i for one like the show Jon more than the emo Jon in the books .
“I think you have to wait and see what happens this year, and if we find out anything more about Jon.”
https://media.tenor.co/images/e45b035d756e6a845ec70d3693c76aeb/tenor.gif
bluefrost,
Jon has ambition but he chooses honor and family above all, the definition of goodie goodie as you call him and that is why people love him. He wants power and wants acceptance but not enough to dishonor himself. The worst thing he has ever done is separate Gilly from her baby and even then he didn’t do that out of malice and he never stop feeling terrible about it. You may think TVJon and BookJon are not the same character but that is just your opinion and not a fact.
Oh I just noticed the article at the source has my favorite Jon Snow gif.
https://media.giphy.com/media/yP6vbeoPKyqxG/giphy.gif
L’Oreal worthy!
DUH
GeekFurious,
well he already ignored Mel’s comment after he was reborn. lol
DragonBallfan,
To me they are exactly the same character. In my opinion, the major difference in believing one is more emo than the other is the fact that Jon POVs are super internal so you are always in his head. I guess this is the reason why he is my favorite character because I feel like I know who he is. Jon is also a conscious being, he’s constantly trying to be better or he often castigates himself for his mistakes. Whereas Tyrion, for example, is often times witty even in his internal monologue, there is always a partial wall even unconsciously so you get Tyrion is witty and a good person in general with some very deep demons but I’m not sure I know him as well as I know Jon. He’s more unpredictable. I think that is the beauty of GRRM’s writing, the fact that each POV is tailored to the specific character. Some of course are better than others regardless of how important the character may be, with Theon having the best written POVs in my opinion.
Flayed Potatoes,
This was literally my face when I read that lol.It’s going to be glorious.
Danny,
They aren’t exactly the same character though. The show has undercut Jon’s strategic abilities a lot… Though the ability to explore that would require the show to have the time to develop the inner politics of the wall and the watch members, which isn’t exactly possible with the limited screen-time.
Though I would argue, the way he fell straight into Ramsay’s trap in BotB lines up with how Book Jon responded to the bait in the Pink letter.
I was hoping that they would go in-depth a bit more regarding Jon’s resurrection too. They really downplayed it quite a bit, which almost makes me think that they will make a bigger deal out of it further down the line in season 7 or 8. Perhaps season 6 just wasn’t the right time to focus on it.
I also didn’t want them to go overboard with it either and have people start treating him like a God or something, so I guess we’ll just have to see what happens in the Wars to come.
Jon and Beric would have quite a bit to talk about if they ever meet. They can show off each other’s wounds and take turns bragging about how each of them had it worse than the other.
“Hmmm so you got stabbed by a bunch of Night’s Watch fools eh? That’s nothing! I’ve been impaled, stabbed, shot with an arrow, and fooking axed to death!”
HelloThere,
There are certainly differences in his story lines, no argument there. I was especially bothered by his second season where they really sold him short but I was speaking more about who he is at his core which is a decent person. You take away his fighting abilities, his leading abilities and you still have a decent human being. The most decent person in power in the entire series. That doesn’t mean perfect but I do find him to be the most ethical of all the major characters. There are other characters who are perhaps purer (not sure is that is a word), Brienne, Meera, Missandei, Gilly, Sam but none of those characters are in power.
Yeh but that lack of ego in conjunction with all his other admirable traits also makes him a bland overdone bore of a character.
For me, Kit pretty much confirmed GoT’s headed for that trope by defensively downplaying TPTWP title there. Seems even he is on some level aware of the cheesiness of it.
He probably is poor guy lol.But that’s the beauty of it Jon is doing everything to save the world without even knowing about it and maybe that’s the point.But Kit is so right,that would definitely be Jon’s reaction.He is in store for so many shocks,I hope he gets a little happiness before or after that.
God damn it, how I hate that statement that great leaders lack an ego. Guess what? Research states it’s not true. A great leader is defined by the combination of empathy *and* a touch of psychopathy, in the form of fearless dominance.
Kosten,
Well not for everyone.To me and many others Jon is the most interesting character in the show.I have never gotten bored with him.The anti-hero trope is the one who is overdone to me.I’m so over it.
or as an old saying goes “you are more likely to meet your fate on the road you take to avoid it.”
First of all, I love Kit, love the character Jon, and the way Kit plays him, and was happy as could be to see a pic of him smiling, with Rose close by his side. He becomes even more wonderful and handsome when he smiles. The scene of him smiling when Sansa told him Winter was official warmed my heart.
Now to address what was in Nate’s article –
Kit:
That’s what I love about him, so I don’t really care about it either. You know, I think that’s what’s great about him. He’s got very little ego on him.
Nate:
That lack of ego is precisely what makes Jon so fit to rule and further adds to the possibility that he could be The Prince.
IMHO, I don’t think that’s precisely right. A man or woman with no ego, or who is afraid to exercise an ego, is basically almost feckless. A person, and especially a good ruler, needs an ego to keep going, to keep sight of their goals, but that ego needs to be controlled. You must neither lose it nor let it get in the way of everything else. I think that’s what Jon has excelled at. He speaks his piece plainly when necessary, but takes the time to listen to what other’s tell him. Except for getting mad about Rickon on the battlefield. That’s where his ego almost got him killed.
DragonBallfan,
1. I don’t think they are “prophecies” at all, at least not in the usual sense of people from the past predicting the future. (More on that mega-tinfoil, convoluted hypothesis at a later date.)
2. Whatever they are, these “prophecies” have been misconceived, embellished and skewed throughout the ages: Repeatedly, the show has demonstrated how even in the same generation, historical events are distorted into false legends. (Cersei > Joffrey: when you’re king, truth will be what you make it; fictionalized
story of Ned vs. Arthur Dayne; Braavos play inverting villains and victims, etc.)
3. I’m making an assumption that with 82% (60 of 73 episodes) of the story already told, we’re well into the “end game”, so most if not all of the necessary clues have already been sprinkled into the 60 hours already aired.
Wimsey has explained on WoW the “Chekhov’s Gun” principle. Stephen King has stated that “[t]he reverse is true.”
“If [something] plays a part at the end, it must be introduced early. (Otherwise, it looks like deus ex machine, which it is.)”
All I know is that there are little tidbits of information and (possible) foreshadowing that I don’t pick up on until a third or fourth rewatch, probably because they didn’t seem important at the time. Or maybe I’m seeing things that aren’t there. ?
What do you all think? Has the show abandoned the PTWP and Azor Ahai stuff as irrelevant?
Jenny,
I totally agree. I’m tired of edgy anti-heroes as well. I also adore Jon’s chapters in the books too. He’s very interesting, realistic and grounded imo.
Thank you for bringing up the Braavos play. Such propaganda, so well presented even Arya starting to buy it. It happened then, it happens now.
I don’t think TPTWP idea has been abandoned. Didn’t Kinvara mention it to Tyrion when she was brought before him? That was mid-season 6, so the idea is still in play.
The religion of R’hllor again, I hope we get to some explanation of that next season.
Volantis , Asshai, perhaps Braavos, maybe all of Essos , there is some worry about the common enemy (to wit The Others). The South afraid of there being more to Winter than has happened before?
Flayed Potatoes,
Me too.I love his mind.It’s harder to be a good person trying to do the good thing when all the odds are against you and to feel everything so deeply than to be a piece of shit who does a good thing once in a blue moon.I like the other characters too and I appreciate that there is a broad spectrum but I don’t think Jon is lesser than any of them only because he is a good person.And like I’m so over the trend of edgy asshole protagonists it’s been so over done in the last years.I mean I have liked some of them too in my time but Jon is a clear example you can have a compelling protagonist without him being an asshole lol.
Thronetender,
Yup. That’s the thing about fake news and alternative facts: if someone in charge can control the spin and has a captive audience, the fictionalized account is accepted as historical fact.
((Another) Example: Joffrey aka The King Who Ran Away from Blackwater, boasting later:
“They know I saved the city. They know I won the war.”
Jenny,
At this point the “edgy antihero” worship has become so commonplace that it’s not even the trendy contrarian choice anymore. That’s alright, I’m cool with liking a protagonist whose complexity meter isn’t calibrated on how many nice things he does despite being a douche. I also think the idea of a “chosen one” shrugging it off is pretty damn hilarious considering how much posturing goes on in this series.
Jenny,
Yes! My thoughts exactly! Anti-heroes seem like a dime a dozen nowadays on tv. It would have been so easy for Jon to become an asshole who doesn’t give a rat’s ass about people considering all the shit he’s been through, but it says a lot about him that he’s still willing to try and fight for others. I think it’s much more difficult to write compelling protagonists than assholes.
LOL I’ve imagined many times that Hot Pie is still making kidney pies and gravy right through the very end. I will never forget the reaction of the twitter crowd to that episode where he shows up again (in season 3 or 4?) Everybody went absolutely nuts, including me: HOT PIE! I didn’t know I liked him so much until then. I kind of thought that Gendry would go join him in town, setting up a little blacksmithing business, but the story apparently has bigger things in mind for him.
What about the Half-Blood Prince That Was Promised? The way nobody talks about him it’s almost like he isn’t canon.
;-^
Jon fanboys are the living proof that the tired old trope of the inescapably good guy is still very much alive.
You do understand well-developed characters don’t fall under either the traditional hero or edgy antihero, right? Like, that’s the whole point.
I have to disagree with you here. When he fought through that battle with swords coming at him in all directions, men on horseback just inches from getting him only for them to be taken out at the last moment, I thought for sure it was divine intervention. Watch that scene again. It really is miraculous.
elybe,
Flayed Potatoes,
I’ve found my people then.Just kidding I already knew you were my people.
Kosten,
It seems you see things that aren’t there,it wouldn’t be the first time that people “read” into actors words like they thought they knew shit yet times and times again they were proven wrong,you would think after 7 seasons people would give up .
One thing I wondered was….is Sam to Jon like Sam is to Frodo? We all know GRRM’s love for Tolkien.
Is this a subtle clue that Jon really is the hero? Frodo doesn’t really want to be the hero, but takes it on anyway. The same could be said for Jon.
They each have their grounded, brave friends named Sam to help keep them on their path.
I’ve wondered about that a lot…
Kosten,
And what’s a well developed character to you,enlighten as since you seem so much smarter than all of us combined ?
Given GRRM’s distain for falling into fantasy tropes, I doubt that Jon, or anyone else for that matter, will be explicitly confirmed as Azor Ahai/The Prince That Was Promised by the end of the series. Ambiguity has always been a key part of ASOIAF/GoT; I wouldn’t be surprised if people 20 years from now are arguing about which character fit the prophecy.
That being said, I would love for it to be Jon. I just think it’s too obvious and goes against the unpredictable nature of the story.
Thronetender,
Yes, Kinvara refers to Dany as “the One who was promised” (S6E5) and Mel calls Jon “the Prince that was promised” in episode 3… It’ll be interesting to see how they reconcile these two “Lord’s Chosen One” in season 7 (or 8?)
What seems to be missing from the show is the myth of “Azor Ahai” (with the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa and all that).
I agree to an extent… However, since the show is reaching its end, it needs to start tying some loose ends even if that means becoming more “predictable” (because of “Chekhov’s gun” and all that). So, since they brought up a couple of times “the Lord’s chosen one” theme, they need to resolve it somehow, even by confirming it was nothing by a myth all along.
I am hoping for something totally from left field re the PTWP and Azor Ahai. Would be amazing for a twist there which no one saw coming. Not sure if there will be enough time in the remaining eps to actually cover this properly. Jon’s reluctance for greatness always reminds me of Aragorn in LOTR….they both knew it was their destiny even if they didn’t want to embrace it
I think of the red religion as the personification of magic in Planetos, because so far that is the only religion that is effective. A red priest cured Victarion’s supperating hand by turning his whole arm into something no longer alive but still a working arm. Victarion is now a cyborg.
The red religion has brought some people back to being no longer dead, but not really alive. Does Jon eat and sleep as the other resurrectees don’t?
Mayhaps the red religion is religionized science. Religion (superstition) persists through time; science is segregated at the Citadel. One or more maesters at the Citadel have found a way to change dying/dead people to undead. The science way to do what the red priests and the WWs do.
Mayhaps Planetos is an experiment to run parallel several ways to make mammals undead: red religion using magic, bad maester using science, WWs using resurrection up through the brain stem only.
TPtwP Azor Ahai is a myth promulgated by the red religion only. Why do they persist in their hope for AA? Did they lose their leader in the past and hope for a crusader to take them to battle the WWs? Did they turn themselves from a warring faction into a religion instead?
Yikes – a testament to Jack Gleeson’s acting – I can still see and hear that shit Joffrey saying that. The trouble with propaganda is when those who conceived and promoted it forget that it was based on lies.
Jenny,
http://68.media.tumblr.com/b3a7abe47b8dc2124d30be8aee51414e/tumblr_oaqoiw6VK61s2791bo2_500.gif
Marlana,
Jon can eat, drink and sleep like regular humans. We’ve seen him eat and drink on season 6 episode 4, and Tormund tells him to rest in the tent scene from episode 9. 🙂
Each priestess seems to make tiny changes in the rhetoric to suit her particular situation. It was always interesting to me that there seems to be no one “true” resolution, just the seed of a myth that the priests or priestesses seem to be allowed to sow as they wish. Thoros is a Red priest, isn’t he? Yet I don’t remember him ever mentioning a PTWP. He didn’t believe in much of anything, until he was able to res Beric. So, why isn’t he promoting a PTWP? I guess the main focus is to promote R’hllor, and the promotion of the PTWP is an add on?
Basically. I don’t think GRRM will ever let on who it is and some people will believe it’s this person and others this person and multiple people will fit the bill and in the end it won’t matter because their actions are going to be what matters.
A Dornish Tyrell,
Even with Mel’s pronouncements on the show, the “prophecy” is missing some of the details. She mentions the “born amidst salt and smoke” part [Renly: “Is he a ham?”], but I don’t think she says anything about waking dragons from stone. I’ll have to go back and listen again. (She recited some of the stuff on the Dragonstone beach idols burning, and a bit more at the Stannis-Renly parlay.)
If the prophecy or prophecies do come true, I wonder if there’s any significance to the parts she left out (from books) eg those weren’t important or were embellishments tacked on over the centuries.
I don’t know. I have not compared them side by side. (Not a book reader )
You make a very interesting point… why isn’t Thoros promoting a PTWP? Especially since he (well, the Lord of Light actually) has resurrected Beric six times… If someone is going be named the Lord’s Chosen One, shouldn’t it be the one who has come back from death many times over? 🙂
Lisse,
A while back when I was looking at GRRM’s blog and interviews from around seven years ago when he was actively involved in casting roles for the show (and was still excited about ASOIAF), I came across an interview he gave (which I can’t find now).
If I remember correctly, he said he deliberately concealed or conceals the identity of who the major players are going to be. I took that to mean, eg, splashy introductions of Big Kahunas, when it would be their sidekicks and subordinates who’d wind up with the prominent roles. I figured that explained Ned Stark, and then Robb Stark, as main good guy, when it was Jon Snow who’d eventually emerge from their shadow; and the One True King/King Who Cared making an early exit while Davos rose in importance; or
setting up Mance Rayder as the focus of the Free Folk stuff, when it would be Tormund who’d assume that role.
(I haven’t read the books so I don’t know if that’s how GRRM presented it.)
Anyway, now I’m thinking that the real Azor Ahai or whatever he’s called, is going to be someone who’s been figuratively hiding in plain sight all along.
(But again, this could be my confirmation bias talking … because it would support my dark horse candidate.)
That’s very intriguing… I’ve always wonder why they decided to leave parts of the prophecies out. Were those parts just there to confuse or distract? I don’t think the way they solve the prophecies in the show is going to inform the way it will be solved in the books (if they are ever solved!)
This sequence with Kinvara contains a lot of info.
“Daenerys Stormborn is the one who was promised.”
https://youtu.be/pJP9o6QMk-E
Well that’s from high priestess numero uno.
By the way the only time the phrase ‘fire made flesh’ has been used on the show.
Funny that she admits Mel made a mistake.
Still Mel seems to be looking for a savior from the War of Darkness, R’hllor-ers are obsessed with this.
This scene is dripping with implications !
Ten Bears,
Eh not really.Apart from Ned being a false protagonist but then again even that was out of the way pretty quickly.But Jon has always been a more important character than Robb and that was plain to see even though Robb was king.Robb is barely there in the books whereas Jon has been a protagonist since book one.Same thing with Davos and Stannis.Davos is the pov character,the one whose adventures we follow.And the Tormund/Mance situation is so different in the books it doesn’t fit here.The prophecy stuff might get resolved in more metaphorical or subtle ways but I really doubt it will be something people haven’t guessed already.
Well, Tormund said he saw his ‘pecker’ and no God would have a pecker that small, so…..you know what they say about guys with huge direwolves, though.
That they are overcompensating? 😛
Actually, it seems to me that most of the religions have some kind of real magic, and it’s only followers of The Seven who seem to lack it.
The Many-faced God has the ability to turn dead people’s faces into magical masks, and the original Jaqen H’ghar seemed to change his face when leaving Harrenhal without even needing a mask.
The Old Gods of the North have the Weirwood network to see into (and apparently influence) the past. Also, it seems to be Old Gods magic that the Children of the Forest used to create the White Walkers.
The Maegi of Essos seem to have real magic as well, and Mirri Maz Duur was a “godswife” of the Great Shepherd, so it seems likely that there was some religious practice associated with her magic as well.
The general impression that I get (and this is speculative) is that the magic itself is actually somewhat independent of “gods” in the sense of actual entities with personalities and motivations, but people have to some extent made up gods to try to explain magic that they use but don’t really understand.
There are also some cases (such as the Three-eyed Raven) in which an ordinary living person becomes tied into magical power in a way that makes them somewhat god-like.
It’s possible that there is some entity that is not a “real” god similarly playing the role of R’hllor, using some kind of fire magic to attempt to communicate with people by sending them visions or voices when they stare into a fire, and manipulating their actions. The ancient Valyrians used obsidian “glass candles” to communicate, so maybe the whole R’hllor religion is just a cult controlled by someone who found one and figured out how to use it to send visions, and convinced people that he was a god.
I can’t believe this hopelessly lifeless character keeps getting hundreds of comments every time. Harington’s performance isn’t very good, either. The Prince that was Promised sounds like something out of Harry Potter and exactly the kind of fantasy crap GRRM would turn into an ironic commentary.
One of the things that makes SoI&F standout in the “epic fantasy” genre is that it never resorts to this sort of thing. Everything is set up in advance: even when Jon is revived, we already knew that clerics from Melisandre’s religion could do that.
Yeah, that was something that a lot of readers did not get. There were readers who thought that Robb was the “hero” of the story! After that, there were readers who thought that Stannis was the hero. Neither was even a protagonist. I think that it was basically too many readers projecting a Tolkien-style plot-driven story when GRRM is really telling a much more Faulkner-style story.
The problem with this idea is that it provides no explanation for how R’hllor grants healing and even restoration of life. It also does not explain how R’hllor can alter weather and control fire. Of course, even if it does explain how visions are transmitted, it does not explain how the vision sender can show snippets of the future. And, of course, given that the Red Church has been around for a very long time, we really need a secret society within the Church running the whole thing.
The thing to consider with R’hllor is: what is its agenda? In particular, why does it so hate the White Walkers? I’ve long propounded the idea that R’hllor is what remains of Azor Azai, and it now blames all of the relevant parties (Walkers, Children, humans) for whatever happened to the person long ago. I’ll be surprised if that is correct: but hopefully we will get some explanation that accounts for the different things we have learned.
Shakespeare said the same thing in the press conferences right before The Scottish Play came out.
And why would it not continue to be. Human beings innately will always find certain traits desirable and others not. If this reverses that will be a bad sign lol.
Juri,
Casso,
Good points. I have wondered if there is a “unified field theory” that serves as a foundation for the religions or the magics. Something that explains the events we know as magic. Somewhere GRRM said that there is no magic, only science not known yet. I would like to know the science (or fictitious science) that underlies ASoIaF.
Obsidian – silicon dioxide with other trace elements – could be a connection, especially if WWs are silicon based beings. For the fire element, obsidian is conveniently created by rapid cooling of lava. And then it could conveniently disrupt the energy flow within the icy WWs.
Some kind of energy is key to the reanimating of dead or dying mammals. What is the source of the energy and how do the clergy, including Miri Mazz Dur, maesters, CotF, and WWs access the energy and impart it to the formerly dead? Why are the undead energized to different levels of their nervous systems (brain stem of wights to full brain of Beric)? Why do the reanimated dead things keep going? Does the energy continue to beam into them? That energy could be native to Planetos.
Wimsey,
Yeah, for me that rascal R’hillor throws a monkey wrench into most every “unified” theory I try to come up with. Is he/it a an evil demon who likes to burn little children, a benevolent deity who protects and restores life, or a schizo who alternates between the two? Not sure about controlling the weather, but it’s pretty clear he/it can resurrect people — if you say pretty please.
I’m wondering if he’s like Q from Star Trek TNG: an omnipotent being with godlike powers who likes to plays games with mankind and devise all sorts of tests and trials for his own amusement; he gets a kick out of watching his pet primitive species do silly things as if we’re a puppy dog chasing its own tail, but in the end has some affection for humankind.
Who knows what the Lord of Light is really up to.
“Prince” as in “Ruler” – it’s a gender-neutral term.
Jenny,
Thanks for the clarification. As I’m still waiting to read the books , I could only speculate about what Martin was talking about as far as “disguising” the identity of his actual players.
….what are you waiting for?
Adam,
I can’t believe this individual doesn’t know there are people in the fucking world who doesn’t share his view or opinions and actually care for this interviews,i know fucking crazy concept right ? Also,please lower your pretentiousness a bit there buddy,no one thinks you are cool on the internet because you shit on Harry Potter .
Haha!!! ?
If only Jon snow fans had such little ego then We wouldn’t be having a new version of prophecy after each and every episode or after every single photo released…( before anyone who feels the need to tell me iam just a hater or start bashing me ..you know it’s true how each and every week we end up with endless speculations about what is salt and smoke and lightbringer and nissa nissa that will make Jon the TpTwp or AAr) ..
Its as someone above called is a “confirmation bias ” ..no matter what happens we will see prophecy in each and everything and make him fit into it..
I have come to realize most people don’t even know the full details and every instances the prophecy is mentioned in both books and show before start speculating about it ..how can we make a speculation without even knowing the full facts I don’t know ..
For me speculations about prophecies is not about which characters gets to be great and chosen and all that …but its the fun of breaking all the codes and clues in the story and waiting to see how much we have got it right .
Couple of comments that caught my notice while reading through was whether show abandoned the prophecies …if they had done that they wouldn’t have come up with a new title ” one who was promised” which to me is show’s version of all three prophecies about the promised combined ( Azor Ahai reborn , The prince that was promised , the stallion who mounts the world ) ..the show just don’t dwelve when a prophecy is completed and say it out loud like how dany just fulfilled TSWMTW prophecy but there is no mention of it ..it doesn’t mean they abandoned it for instance dany already fulfilled both prophecies but if we are going to pretend that character never exist and look other way it will look like they abandoned only..
Why does Thoros doesn’t speak about TPTWP well he never believed anything for starters and his story was not about finding the chosen one or connected with the WW …
Very true but everyone from rhaegar to Mel wanted him to be the one so I don’t see how that it applies to him even though he may be reluctant to accept his destiny and greatness
I see people say Mel proclaims Jon as Prince that was promised but if you look at that scene all she says is that now stannis is dead that there needs to be someone and she is quick to jump on Jon because he is back from dead ( which is another instance she chooses to blind herself like she did with stannis because she knows Jon is not the only one that has been resurrected in that way ) ..davos was wise enough to silence her..so she doesn’t believe or say with the same certainty she did with Stannis or like kinvara does ..
That’s why I hope she learns about dany and it will be fun to see what she does then ..
Slightly offtopic but looking at the polls iam surprised that people prefer winterfell and riverrun over casterly rock and western lands ..I can understand the love for winterfell but riverlands is no way safe to live than westernlands
As far as the books are concerned, I do agree to an extent – Ned is very much put forward (in both book 1 and season 1) as the man we are going to follow, and the hero of the piece. Although he is a key player in the Wot5k, Robb is never a POV character and so we see less of him in the books than we do in the show, and when we do it is mainly (though not solely) through Catelyn’s POV. I do vaguely recall D&D saying in an interview that Richard Madden’s season one performance had them determined that Robb couldn’t be off-screen as much as he is for elements of book two (the template for season two). And from book one, Jon is one of the most prominent POV characters.
Looking at the show, I definitely think there is an argument to be made about Jon emerging from the shadows of Ned and Robb – Jon’s prominence in the story really kicks into gear in season four, after the Red Wedding. He then goes on to be a huge part of season five and – for me, at least – although the show is an ensemble piece, so much of season six (both in the past with Bran and in the present) is about Jon Snow. Retrospectively, it is clear from the early episodes of season one that Jon is someone we are meant to pay attention to, but his move to the center of the story is something I always saw as being part of his season four arc.
As for the Prince that was Promised prophecy, I definitely agree that Jon would hate the idea of it. Jon will be an important part of the Great War, but it will not be because of a prophecy he has never had any investment in; it will be because Jon’s actively chosen to fight the White Walkers. In some ways his arc has been heading towards fighting in this conflict since the scene in episode 101, when Jon tells Benjen that he wants to join the Night’s Watch.
Hopefully these ramblings make some sort of sense!
dragonbringer,
IMO, it’s pretty obvious that Jon is the PTWP. All the bad things that happened to him since his conseption happened for a reason: he had to lose his parents to be raised in the North as a motherless bastard to join the NW and to learn about the only war that matters in its early stages; now he is been granted power step by step to muster forces necessary to fight back. But that doesn’t mean that he will end as a king. The prophesy sais nothing about kinging and it’s quite possible that Jon will die as a prince (prince-consort to Queen Dany at best), and that his role in the War for Dawn will be overshadowed by Dany. It doesn’t matter: Danny may be the queen, but Jon will be the commander and prince in the primary meaning of this word as the First, and the vicory will be his first of all.
But that said, I have no inent to diminish Dany’s role. IMO, all the protagonists (Bran, Arya, and even Jaime) will make thier input. It’s just that Jon’s mission is to muster all of them for the right cause. So, it will be Mel and not Kinvara who will turn to be right at the end.
Flayed Potatoes,
GoT/ASoIaF loves itself some edgy antiheroes, though. Jon just happens to be the most traditionally heroic figure (along with Brienne), so he bucks the trend somewhat.
Jaime, Sandor, Arya…the list goes on and on. A rather large percentage of the cast falls into that trope.
Inga,
Let’s just leave who diminishes who and who gets more spotlight than the other which is exactly why I think people don’t think about other characters because of the fear it diminishes Jon ..
I agree with what you said about jon’s story so far happened for a reason but can we see the other side of the coin and look at dany’s story ..
But before going into story the three key points I think we need to remember are ..
1)we are told there will be return if dragons and a prince will rise from targaryen ..
2)there is a promised prince who needs to unite all the khalasar and March them to end of the world ( who in their culture have the stories of how ghostgrass(snow???) Covering the lands to tell the end of the world ) .
3)There is a AAR who needs to be born amidst salt and smoke and birth dragons from the stone or pull the lightbringer under the
So this is how the story goes ..
While we all feel sorry for how jon lost his parents and how aweful he will feel if he thinks he is the product of rape and caused so much blood to spill ..People often forget that it was because of Rhaegar and his actions that dany was even born and she is actually born from rape and a direct result of that war…
So when the story starts with Rhaegar thinking he is going to fulfill the prophecy of three headed dragon and produce the TPTWP elopes with lyanna and makes Jon but it all goes waste when everyone he cared for dies except his mother with just now conceived daenerys and little brother..
And all this events makes that rhaella have her pregnancy at Dragonstone – a place which is amidst salt and smoke and a place which will make Mel go to stannis in the first place because he is lord of dragonstone .,a place which stannis takes after dany leaves the place ( hiding dany from mel slayer of lies anyone ?? )…one must wonder why Mel is always in the dark about dany ..
Meanwhile dany’s birth becomes a big event because it is a biggest storm ever seen and dany is born amidst it in dragon stone ( salt and smoke) and her mother dies and she is forced to flee to essos with her brother ..
She grows with no family except for a abusive brother and always on the run ..
She is sold to a khal by her brother for the army ..and that’s she gets into a culture where there is a prophecy about Promised prince and tales about long night ..
And its not a coincidence that she who is the last of Targaryen who are already expecting a promised Prince ends up in another culture which is also expecting a promised prince ..
And from there she fulfills everything the prophecy says ..she sacrifices her family ..she brings the dragons back and she hatches and pulls them under bleeding stars. She goes to unite the khalsar …and now at long lost she will be bringing dragons and her dothraki all to westeros who will be key for fighting the WW..
She even fights a monster and kills him the same way how Jon read Azor Ahai fight and kills the monster ..
So while Jon learns all the information about the threat …dany is producing and gathering all the weapons that is needed to fight the threat…even Jon himself says how nice it would be to have dragons at the wall ..
Do remember dany is actually someone who doesn’t hear about the prophecy till now ..she is actually fulfilling everything without even knowing what she is doing unlike rhaegar or mel who tried to make prophecy happen with Jon ..
The ending of 5*8 hard home and 5*9 dance of dragons can’t be more clearer ..
Hard home ends with no hope and jon completely defeated and dance ends with full of hope dany flying on drogon ( which benioff mentions as chosen one ) .. Take dany and her dragons out of the story and result will be same like hardhome no matter how many times it happens ..
I vote an up arrow on this comment.
Jon as the prince that was promised? I thought he was a sexist, inept ruler who does not have the intellect or experience to rule. He should step aside for Sansa who is the princess that was promised!
Aaanyway I love Jon.
Yeah. Also in the books as well as the show, the R’hllor-ers know what’s happening in the North and North of the Wall. As if they knew what would happen before it happened. Not that they couldn’t have ‘agents’, not clergy, in the North, still intel seems to be flowing. Remember Mel gets Stannis to move because of a message. She is worried about (The Others) . Does he know that? He takes on The Wlildlings and with success in the North is going to strike at the South not North of the Wall.
I thought season 6 kind of muddled what Mel was thinking , even tho she does bring up the great war against the darkness, while , as mentioned above , Kinvara flat lays it down , again, that , some ‘savior’ has to lead Westeros against (the Others).
Hear, hear!
Why couldn’t prince that was promised be duplaris or even a trinity?
Boojam,
It can’t be a Trinity because there is only Two members alive from Rhaella and Aerya line ..
And there is no third one that is connected to the prophecy ..
Anyone who comes close is tyrion and even his connection end with having a dead mother..
It can be two people but then again if people turn blind to the one with more clues and just dont want to accept it as a choice what can we do ..
Jenny,
I guess this is in response to my above comments ..if so its not the question of love of jon but its about how people let that blind from the actual story and other characters importance
dragonbringer,
It wasn’t in response to your comment.I already knew what your comment would say lol.And I don’t let anything blind me from the actual story.I truly don’t care if he is the TPTWP,I view it the same way that Kit does.He still would be my favourite.
dragonbringer,
Dany may be the Stallion (or rather the Mare) that mounts the world, but this Dothraki prophesy is all about conquest, not about the defense from external threat: there is no mentioning that the Stallion will have to deal with the shadow grass or something similar. The PTWP prophesy has more stress on the defensive war to come and Jon has been fighting this war since S1.
Moreover, Jon and not Dany is connected to other characters that seem to have a pivotal role in the War for Dawn. Bran and Arya are his cousins; Brienne carries out Jaime’s oath to protect the Stark girls and I hope that Jaime will join her. It’s hard to tell whether Gendry is going to play any magical role, but if he does, he will be joining Jon’s camp, rather than Dany’s, due to his friendship with Arya and Davos. One way or another, Davos is pretty important himself. Dany’s team counts only Tyrion and Theon, but both of them have a record of interacting with Jon. And Dany will be connected to Jon via blood and fire (love). So, one way or another Jon is more central and more pivotal than Dany, even if she has three dragons and many more men.
And as for the prophesies, it depends on how you read them. Check this video, if you haven’t seen it yet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQJHUPwc_4k&t=13s
Boojam,
Yeah, I kinda think Jon is the PTWP, Dany is Azor Ahai and Bran the Last Hero. In some ways at least, I’m sure it’s not as straightforward as that (and tbh Jon could be AA and Dany the PTWP).
Jenny,
I love him too! And I LOVE that he is a more traditional hero and one of George’s most tropey characters and that he’s going to be one of the most important people in the last two seasons and that is enough for me, prophecy or not.
dragonbringer,
BTW, I think that the dragon Jon is to awaken from the stone will be no-one else but Dany: not only she has dragons – she is the dragon herself, and Jon will awaken her at DragonSTONE in the sense that he will make her aware of the only war that matters.
Me too! He is the manbun that was promised and his is the song of hairspray and curling irons! 😛
If only Dany fans had less need to try and make her the center of the universe.
Like Jenny, I couldn’t care less if he’s a prophecy munchkin or not. I barely even talk about prophecy here, as it’s frankly not one of my interests as far as Jon and multiple other characters I follow are concerned. It wouldn’t diminish my love for Jon if he was just an average Joe. I’d actually welcome that instead of him becoming the ultimate Mary Sue of the saga by fulfilling all the prophecies in the series and having all the power and armies and kingdoms and the valonqars and all the kitchen sinks. Frankly my priority is for him to survive the series.
However, whether you like it or not there is no denying that he has ties to this one prophecy and it’s not something believed exclusively by Jon Snow fans, but by swaths of fans of different characters. Are you going to say so much of the fandom is “blind to the story” because they disagree with you and don’t think that the character you support who already fits other prophecies is the one? Fortunately Jon doesn’t care about all this prophetic bullcrap and remains skeptical and focused on the endgame war.
Azor Asshai,
Yes pretty much everyone in the saga fits some sort of trope:
– hidden prince raised without knowledge of his real identity
– mean stepmother who hates said hidden prince
– exiled prince and princess who want to reclaim their family’s throne
– exiled princess married off to a beastly and aggresive warrior, who ultimately fall in love with each other
– evil queen who will stop at nothing to secure her power
– arrogant knight brought low who goes on a journey of redemption
– tomboy girl who goes on the run and becomes an assassin
– naive foolish girl forced to grow up and learn from her mistakes
– son who tries to avenge his father’s untimely death
– black sheep of the family who proves his intelligence and cunning and rises to a position of authority
And there’s more where that came from. Ultimately it’s how these tropes are written and handled that matters. I personally love how nuanced Catelyn was, for example. She disliked one of my favorite characters, but frankly I couldn’t hate her for it. I saw why she’d be that way.
Sundae,
I love traditional heroes and in difficult times these are the ones some readers and viewers need. 🙂
Inga,
Lol its exactly the type of thing I was talking about how everyone comes up with new ways to say how jon is TPTWp ..
Before season 6 there was a report about how too much smoke is coming out of castle black …then all the speculation went how jon will be burnt and how he will wake from it similar to dany …then show happened ..
Now we have from that video its not salt at all but snow while mixing up all the show and books foreshadowings ..only thing people agree is that it doesn’t matter how it happens but jon must be AAR and TPTWP and create a theory around it …and iam not even surprised that video doesn’t even mention dany at once ..
I guess his fans need to sit and decide what actually is the moment he fulfills prophecy because it seems he can’t move a bit without it being connected to prophecy ..poor jon..
Did you honestly think a male centric society such as Dothraki would have expected a women to unite them all so they can name them mare who mounts the world ..
Ofcourse it was how they interpreted that it’s about conquest and power under a stallion or khal..
But who fulfills matters a lot …under dany they will be part of fight against WW..
Dany is already related to the other two prophecies about promised prince ( AAR and TpTWp ) and fulfilled them ( I don’t think anyone can deny she doesn’t) and is connected to another third prophecy about promised prince and fulfills that too and you guys don’t think that there is no connection..
I don’t see what other characters related to jon have to do wwith the prophecy… Sorry to say this but jon hasn’t been fighting WW from season 1 he is been preparing for the fight which he can’t take upon himself ..they are on the lookout for someone to help them and save them from the start ..
Like I said actual prophecy is fulfilled by dany already ..its up to jon whether he will fulfill or not..
I fully expect Mel to change her views once again when she sees dany ..
See another instancw where people doesn’t know the full story before speculating which is what I was talking about ..
Dany was born wake and flew as dragon before the hatching of dragons in AGOT …she ran from the coldness and dark and surrounded by stones and trying to find a way out …her ancestors lead her to the light and she flew from the darkness as the Last Dragon and sees herself in Rhaegar’s armor..
So jon doesn’t have to wake anything because its already woke
Flayed Potatoes,
This so much.Every single character fulfills some kind of trope.Some are played straight some are flipped but that doesn’t diminish my enjoyment of the story.I actually once read a brilliant post that said how Jon’s arc deconstructed a lot of the traditional hero tropes but I can’t find it now lol.It all depends in the way it is written and if the characters are compelling.Same about Catelyn I loved her.Her attitude with Jon was shitty but I still understood it and she made me feel for her so much.Honestly the only time I have properly cried in the show is the one scene between her and the Blackfish in season 3 where she is sitting by the window after finding out Bran and Rickon are missing and how she wasn’t there for them.It was so tragic.Anyway back to praying that Jon survives the series and is happy for 2.5 seconds.
Thronetender,
Tyrion and Jon had that comversation in season one that pretty much illustrates why both of them keep theit egos in healthy perspective. Jon the bastard, and Tyrion the imp…
dragonbringer,
Dany’s certainly got the “wake dragons from stone” box checked off with the three dragons hatched from petrified eggs.
(Walking in and out of raging fires unharmed suggests she’s pretty special too.)
I think the “wake dragons from stone” part of the prophecy may be missing from ShowMel’s recitals. I’ll check that. However, as I’d suggested a while back, from the repeated “infodumps” on the show (esp in Sam scenes) about the properties of dragonglass, and deposits of it on Dragonstone, I’ve been wondering if Jon, aided by Samwell the Wizard, will find a way to weaponize Dragonglass (known as “frozen fire”) into a napalm-like substance. There have been too many Sam-learns-about DG + Sam-imparts-DG-info-to-Jon scenes for the show to ditch the Dragonglass angle. If “waking dragons from stone” is still a prerequisite for ShowAA or ShowPTWP, Dany’s dragons hatched from petrified eggs, or Jon unleashing “frozen fire” from Dragonstone itself, could do the trick.
. [BTW: in Stannis’s “Keep reading, Samwell Tarly” scene, it
always stuck out like a sore thumb that when Sam the Slayer told Stannis he’d pulverized a WW with a Dragonglass dagger, Stannis piped in with ~ “Oh, I know that stuff. We got lots of it on Dragonstone.”]
I have been wary of the born “amidst salt and smoke” aspect, because some theories seem to reach a bit: Some suggest the “salt” component is satisfied because there was seawater or someone crying nearby; or that the “smoke” element is present because of a “steaming” open wound or warm liquid in cold air. (Call me unimaginative, but I’d want a qualified AA/PTWP candidate to point to real salt and real smoke before she or he gets the job title).
Anyway, I’m going to revisit the ShowProphecy recitals to see what they require.
Jenny,
I’d like to read that post on his deconstructed arc if you ever find it. And I’ll be praying with you to the very end!
This reminds me: did Cat ever see Bran after he woke up from his coma? I don’t think so. :'(
Flayed Potatoes,
If you don’t care about it then you shouldn’t be bothered by my comment because it’s not just you and jenny who is jon fans here or doesn’t care about him becoming like you say Mary sue of the series ..
Did I state anything that didn’t happened …
I have said again and again I don’t think the story revolves around dany or I never once said that there is nothing relating jon to the prophecy ..even in the above comments I have said how he may be reluctant to take up his destiny but he has to and when replying to boojam I straight away said only jon and dany has connections to the prophecy ..and I always viewed them as both equals ..
its actually opposite of what you say iam arguing for which is no matter how hard people try to ignore dany you cant deny she has connections to the prophecies as well..how many times I have to say this to people understand I don’t know ..
And yes I will be calling people blind because if they only keep repeating two lines and ignore all other instances the prophecies are mentioned …
All I was asking for bring in every point and clues and every instance the prophecy is mentioned before you decide it is one and start campaigning for it..
If only there was one sure representation of prophecy for jon like its for dany …then I will be happy to …at this point the man can’t take a step before someone calling its a prophecy fulfilled..which is what iam speaking against but its always the same I will be blamed as hater who wants everything to be about dany while completely missing my point ..
Speaking of jon not caring about this ..he learns about lightbtinger and next thing he does is dreaming about fighting with that sword… So he too wants and cares about the recognition and its not a bad thing either …I see it as similar to how harry learns about Triwizard tournament and then dreams about holding the Triwizard cup ..he is not like stannis to jump on immediately when someone comes and says he is special ..
Believe me, I’ve watched the scene a countless number of times. We can say that there was some kind of ‘divine intervention.’ It makes me wonder every time I watch it. However, what I was looking for or what I was expecting, as I wrote, was something visible coming from within Jon himself. You know, like a glow or something… Would I really have wanted that in a battle against other living? Probably not. Would it have been a bit cheesy? Probably. I’m just saying that I expected (something) that clearly showed he’s imbued with something special. I’m not disappointed that there wasn’t anything like that yet. IF his destiny is to face the NK one-on-one… in this genre of story I think it needs to be clear that he has something ‘extra’ beyond good sword fighting skill. Of course, that may not present itself until that moment, if it ever comes.
Ten Bears,
Yes dany certainly did wake dragons out of stone when she hatched dragons ..but what many people dont realize is dany herself wakes as dragon out of stone the chapter before the hatching happens ..it’s after she has been taken into the tent by jorah and when she had the miscarriage of rhaego ..
Ever since the scene we saw how NK was created iam wondering whether jon have to pull that dragonglass out of him to make him human again..
Sam of course needs to learn a lot …here I can’t but bring in the book version …sam and aemon learns about dany in bravos and aemon wants to go to dany because he wants to tell dany about the prophecy and the threat and to teach her but unfortunately he dies giving the mission to sam ..sam goes to citadel and tells about dany to marwyn and sarella ( who I believe to be quaither) ..now marwyn is on his way to dany ..
I don’t think they need to any new method to make dragonglass as weapons ..they already know how to make arrow heads and swords ..
This is where I believe dothraki will come because GRRM doesn’t spend his time on their archery skills for nothing ..
Dragonglass is also used to communicate over long distances and their powers were dormant until dany hatched dragons ..
So yes dany hatching dragons already triggered it …it activated fire magic all over essos and westeros..because of that only they were able to make so much wildfire for blackwater and KL and it activated the frozen fire as well ..
I believe there are couple of quotes to prove this in the books..
Clob,
I just they did that because it just a cool scene to be made ..
If they intended it as divine intervention Or something like that then iam sure we would have heard show runners or director or kit or other actors speak about it …
I think Jon Snow has already chosen his destiny when he accepted the task of opposing the Night King, first as the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch and now as the King in the North. He’ll do his duty by preparing everyone for the Great War and taking the command later to fight for the humanity’s survival.
It’s interesting the way the Chosen One theme is played in Jon’s arc. Ever since the beginning, he always gets chosen: Jeor Mormont picks him as his successor, (in the books Qhorin Halfhand picks Jon to be a part of his ranging party and later entrusts to him the task of infiltrating the Wildlings) His brothers of the Night’s Watch chose him as their Lord Commander. The North chose him as their leader. But the story is portraying Jon as the Chosen One not because of some prophecy, but because of people choosing him.
“He (Jon Snow) had chosen a hard life…or perhaps he should say that a hard life had been chosen for him.” – AGOT, Tyrion
But just as he gets chosen, Jon Snow also gets to choose as well. He hates being placed in the Stewards, but still he takes his NW vows. He chose to return to Castle Black instead of deserting for Robb, and later for Ygritte. He took the command during the Battle against the Wildlings. He refuses the offer of Stannis to make him the Lord of Winterfell and stays to be the LC. He took the responsibility of the Wildlings. He executed his murderers and finally left the Night’s Watch. Then reluctantly accepts Ramsay’s challenge after threatening him, his family and friends. He’s chosen by the Northerners to be the King, but he’ll do his own way of ruling, according to the spoilers.
I think it’s going to come into effect later on of Jon having a choice, considering he spent his life paying for the decisions and things he had no control over. When he finally finds out about his real parentage, he’ll most probably suffer from an identity crisis. He’ll reject Melisandre’s prophecy, The prince that was promised, Azor ahai or whatever title people will put on him. In the end, I think he will choose to be Jon Snow, not a Stark or a Targaryen. He is his own self, molded by his experiences and choices he’s made. He will face the Night king because he chose to, and by the merit of people choosing him as their leader, not because of some prophecy.
Ten Bears,
Regarding salt and smoke ..
Yes that’s exactly what was my problem with it too ..then I found this conversation with Mel and jon which made me certain of what salt and smoke must be and then lots of things made sense after that ..
The passage is
This conversation happen at the near end of book five ..
Mel was always correct about the contents of the prophecy but it was the interpretation where she went wrong ..
Dragonstone as you pointed out is an important place what with all this dragonglass dragonsteel and dragons coming from there..
As jon pointed out stannis was not born there but unlike jon we know someone who was born to aerys and rhaella there ..the event is no notable that the girl got a name out of the event Stormborn
We always see people joke about dany’s titles but if you notice all of dany’s titles come when she fulfills a part of the prophecy .
And it made sense why dany is slayer of lies with stannis as one of the lies ..stannis takes the dragonstone after dany leaves ..So when Mel goes she finds stannis…stannis has been the lie that his the truth until necessary..
And it also tells us why stannis or Mel don’t know about dany or her dragons …Mel got lots of vision realted to dany but she misinterpreted it …she got the vision of viserys dying but interpreted it as how stannis will die and she saw dragons on meereen but don’t realise what it is ..
Stannis clear and obvious red herring if there ever was one ..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/0/jim-broadbent-game-thrones-public-school-arrogant-pompous-sense/
This article confirms Broadbent’s role as Archmaester Marwyn for the series. Seems like an interesting (and possibly spoilerific read), but it’s a premium article…
Inga,
I remain unconvinced by that video… it seems to me that he tries too hard to shoehorn Jon in TPTWP prophecy. In any case, AltShiftX does a much better work at analyzing which character better checks all boxes of that prophecy…
So far Dany seems the better candidate… and with her dragons being the prophesized “flaming sword”, she has a much more powerful weapon than Jon in the impending war against the NK. That being said, even if she IS revealed to be TPTWP, that wouldn’t diminish one bit Jon’s importance to the story.
Both are charismatic characters and both of them will play a central role in the wars to come. Which role exactly, it remains to be seen…
Dutch Maester,
Oh speak of the devil …I hope we does have scenes of him telling about how citadel brought down the targaryens because the grey sheeps as marwyn calls them is who I think responsible for events like summer hall and dragons death and ultimately downfall of targs..And hope he also speaks about aemon and has conversation about the prophecy and other things with dany..
Too bad we won’t get sarella sand ..
A Dornish Tyrell,
Exactly …this is what iam trying to say ..
A Dornish Tyrell,
Hey,at least he didn’t bring out Preston Jacobs,that guy is a joke,the amount of butthurt when the show confirmed that R+L=J instead of his silly theory was hilarious .
I agree. Stannis and Robb (as someone mentioned above) were always red herrings in the story… Stannis even more so, I dare say.
That’s not really true. Jon does not immediately start dreaming of a flaming sword after hearing of lightbringer. He hears about it at the beginning of adwd when Maester Aemon was still in Castle Black. He only dreams about wielding a flaming sword at the very end a little before he is stabbed. There is a substantial gap. His dreaming about that sword was not just about Jon wishing to be a hero, it was a hint of a connection with the Azor Ahai prophecy imo.
Two things stood out for me in his dream – one he was cloaked in black ice while wielding a fiery sword, ice and fire. He is literally symbolising ice and fire in the dream. Secondly he feels a gnarled hand on his shoulder as he wakes up from his dream, which I believe belonged to Bloodraven.
A Dornish Tyrell,
GRRM started hinting about Jon’s connection to the AA prophecy after Dany has already fulfilled all the terms. There must be a reason for that, since I don’t believe GRRM intends Jon to be yet another red herring. It doesn’t necessarily have to be one or the other. Imo both Jon and Dany are connected to the prophecy.
Sure. that’s why I’ve said earlier that I’m interested in seeing how the show reconciles these two “Lord’s Chosen One.” I believe that both will be important and that they will have to cooperate with each other in order to vanquish the NK…. So maybe they are different aspects of the same prophecy (although that’s too “Dualism” for my liking.)
Contrary to you, I have no qualms believing that Jon might be another red herring. That doesn’t mean that I firmly believe that he is one though. Until further evidence, I still think it’s Dany the better suitor for the TPWP prophecy. That doesn’t make Jon any less in my eyes.
ghost of winterfell,
Yeah I don’t mean to say it happens right after the moment he learns just saying he had this dream after learning about the sword..
As I say jon will fulfill that dream similar to how harry fulfilled his dream of holding Triwizard cup ..
The difference between both dreams is while Harry dreamed it as happy event it ended up as sad ..but jon dreams as sad so it may end up happy ..
Small correction Grrm started speaking about prophecy after dany fulfills it as he introduced Mel and AAr in ACOK only ..
But GRRm is providing hints not only for jon but for dany too …as late as ADWD …the quote I provided Ten bears and we actually get dragons as flaming sword reference and
The story of AA fighting a monster and how it matches word to word with what happened between dany and kraznys at astopor..she rather the day of daznak pit even appears at Mel’s fire when she asks for Azor Ahai which Mel don’t realize ..
This all happens I’m ADWd wonder why he keeps giving this hints if intends to make her red herring either …
A Dornish Tyrell,
I don’t see Robb or Ned as red herrings personally..
We still have to see whether its tyrion or Jamie who is red herring ..personally i think tyrion will end up as a red herring..
If you mean that we see that Melisandre’s thinking is muddled in Season 6, then I agree: they showed that well. She has, after all, basically just suffered a major crisis of faith. She had convinced herself that the teaser trailers for Battle for the Dawn II had Stannis in the lead role: and now she’s realized that the key scenes happen after Stannis drops out of the tale. Basically, she’s like that person who posted lots of detailed “this must mean” analyses on the Internet, only to learn that, actually, those scenes did not necessarily mean that.
What will be interesting is: what is R’hllor going to “teaser” her now? My suspicion is that he’s been pointing some followers towards Jon and others towards Daeny. As someone noted, “prince” can be gender neutral: I seem to recall that the true version is gender neutral, and that “princess” is a more modern concept. In the books, it’s emphasized that
: and that probably means something.
Ultimately, I am betting that Martin (and B&W) have already hung part of the “Zen of R’hllor” gun on the wall. When we learn the truth, then we’ll go “Oh… that is what happened to…. My weak inference (and it is just that: weak inference) might be right, but having come up with this oh-so-clever idea, I naturally am quite blind to other reasonable alternatives! 😀
Wimsey,
But iam curious wimsey what do you think will happen when Mel meets or learns about daenerys ..
ghost of winterfell,
Another thing I would like to point is that if either of them was intended as a red herring then show would not have removed the red herring. .
For example ,it would have been very perfect if say kinvara wasn’t introduced and not mentioned dany as one who was promised ..if she was supposed to be a red herring I would have expected show to not include this scene
It’s not really appropriate to think of characters are red herrings: that really describes an ironic plot device.
Ned is a faux protagonist. That is, he is written (or directed) much like one, but there were some suspicious “tells” that should have tipped us off that he was not a true protagonist. In particular: Ned often talks or thinks about having regrets, and he clearly has some secret regarding Jon: but a true protagonist would have thought/spoken about these things in some detail so that the reader/viewer would understand the protagonist’s dilemma. Only now do we know what that was!
Robb is a secondary character in the books and a minor protagonist in the series. In the TV series, he contributes a lot to the “conflicted loyalties” and “love/hate” relationship stories. In the books (and on the show), he’s a foil for Catelyn’s contributions to those stories. However, he’s not contributing to the big over-arching story.
Jaime is a lesser protagonist. He’s not some sort of “red herring” for anything because he’s not going to be something that we’ve thought but not in the way that we thought. Tyrion is a major protagonist, 3rd only behind the Jon & Daeny tandem. Again, he’s not a red herring.
One could argue that valonqar is a red herring:
Cersei interprets “little brother” as her small and much younger brother, but because “little brother” is used for any younger brother, her seconds-younger twin Jaime qualifies. [/quote] However, this itself also is not quite a red herring: it’s just good old fashioned irony in that when it is fulfilled, Cersei will realize: “Oh, that in-some-context-lesser male sibling…..” in the same way that she will realize “Oh, that younger, more beautiful queen…” when Daenerys pushes her aside.
I think that at some point they are going to realize that the dragon has more than one head, and that they’ve all been correct, just not completely correct. Certainly, when Mel learns about Daenerys’ full history, she (Mel) will kick herself for shoehorning Stannis into the prophecy slipper when Daenerys is Cinderella’s foot.
Yikes!, Parthenogenesis in squamata.
Wimsey,
Yeah I agree with you about Robb and Ned ..
I completelu forget that Jamie is not suspected by cersei so yeah you are right but we have to whether tyrion will be when it comes to valanqor ..
You’ve convinced me. I’ll stop referring to some characters as “red herrings” from now on. 🙂
Kosten,
For you…
He’s increadibly interesting for me. He is a character the watches, learns and uses what he learns to do what he thinks is correct even if it is a mistake or it is perceived as a mistake or a betrayal. He reflects about his mistakes and try to correct the course. This, and his natural leadership qualities, explains why he is able to adapt and gain so many people’s trust and admiration. He makes an effort to understand. To me, it is also what explains why he’s able to keep in mind the big picture (he knows he’s not the center of the universe).
He’s constantly growing and adjusting. For me that is a breath of fresh air in a group of characters in power who either know it all, know better or who feel entitled.
Courtesy of Radio Times, an interview with Kit Harington about ‘stage and screen’.
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2016-04-03/kit-harington-and-laura-carmichael-on-early-tv-success-and-their-troubles-with-stage-fright
Just a throwaway thought.. what if TPWWP is Bran?
The young prince of Winterfell capable of changing the entire course of history and winning the battle for good.. though I imagine it’ll probably end up being Jon
GhostCR,
I agree with you and that pretty well sums up why he’s probably my favorite character on the show. There’s a sense of empathy with him that you just don’t find in most people, especially in Planetos. He makes the effort to understand everyone’s perspective, even if he disagrees with it.
To touch on an earlier discussion, I don’t think ego is a necessary trait for a leader to have. I think what’s necessary for a leader to have is 100% belief in a particular cause or motive and let that cause/motive take you to wherever you need to go to accomplish the mission. Ego doesn’t have to be involved in that at all in any way, shape or form. Ego is all about self-importance, not the importance of the cause itself.
Belief in the righteousness of your cause, the will to see it through, and the ability to make others buy into your cause is what makes a great leader. You don’t have to be egotistical to do that.
I agree! However, there are many who would say that righteousness is a type of egomania. I never have bought this myself: some “righteous” people are very empathetic people, and although empathy & egoism might not be mutually exclusive, they certainly are mutually enhancing. (I do fully concur that many “righteous” people basically are confounding their feelings with those of some god, which is about as egotistical as one can get: but that only means that not all forms of righteousness are the same.)
Wimsey,
Agreed. Ego and righteousness can certainly be one in the same, but they can be separated too. I would look to Gandhi as an example of someone who believed in the righteousness of their cause, but had no ego about it.
Now, on the other hand, there are plenty of leaders who would fall under the ego=righteousness category, namely a certain current U.S. President who gets mentioned quite a bit on this site already, so I’ll go the ‘he who shall not be named” route here.
Mr Derp,
Well said, I agree.
I agree to an extent… I think empathy and flexibility are much more important to a leader the belief in the righteousness of a cause. I think what makes Jon a greater leader than, let’s say, Stannis is his ability to empathize and his flexibility in his goals once new information was available to him. He quickly adjusted from let’s defend the realm against the Wildlings to let’s include/save them. I think that is what makes Jon such a compelling character.
Adaptability is a better term than flexibility…
A Dornish Tyrell,
Hmmm, I was under the impression that you meant the “Prince who can do the most splits” would be the winner of the Game of Thrones once and for all.
Lol, j/k I knew what you meant and you worded it just fine.
I think Daenerys also falls under the same category as Jon, but we really haven’t seen her need to alter her big picture plans yet, so we don’t quite know if she’s ultimately willing to sacrifice her personal goals for the good of the Realm. I think she will though. I trust both Daenerys and Jon to do the right thing when all is said and done.
Mr Derp,
Maybe that’s Dany’s challenge next season… Although I would argue that she did modified her goals when she decided to stay in Meereen to (learn to) rule… but that’s debatable…
Mr Derp: “Prince who can do the most splits”
Hey! “The Splits that were promised” is a thing!!! 😀
dragonbringer,
But why is Dragonstone “the place of salt and smoke”, according to BookMelisandre?
In the quoted passage, Jon correctly deduces that Mel’s wrong about Stannis because Stannis wasn’t born at Dragonstone; he was born at Storm’s End. I didn’t interpret the passage as an acknowledgement if Mel’s description of Dragonstone as a place of salt and smoke.
I’m not questioning you. I’m questioning the basis for Melisandre’s description: After all, her mistaken conclusions were a good illustration of “confirmation bias”: cherry-picking and contorting facts to support one’s theory, instead of objectively looking at all the facts to see where they lead. *
I get that Dragonstone is an island so it’s next to an ocean, and there was a bad storm when Dany was born that probably kicked up a lot of sea spray. But where’s the smoke? Where’s the salt? Mel could say that anyone who lived anywhere near a saltwater lake or ocean was “amidst salt and smoke.”
I’m sure you’ve seen Hot Pie = AA theories that also torture the “salt and smoke” factor, eg, salt used in the gravy and smoke from his oven.
Finally, the ShowProphecy also included the “salt and smoke” language. While there may be quite a bit of textual evidence to justify that Character X satisfied this condition, there should also be something in S1 – S6 to support the same conclusion.
I just don’t see it for Dany or Jon. No smoke. No salt.
[I’m going to try to cut and paste your quoted book passage to compare it to excerpts of Mel’s prophecy recitals in the show.]
* PS I keep bringing up this concept of “confirmation bias” because I fear that I’ve come up with a crackpot [show-only] theory that started out as wishful thinking on my part.
Only problem is that when I go back to rewatch to confirm for myself how untenable it is, I find more reasons why it makes sense.
Mr Derp,
When daenerys decided to go to Astopor the original plan was to buy few hundred people as her own guard So they can’t be a pawn in illyrio’s plans ..
But once she reaches the place she decides to buy them all which she sees the only way to free them all ..
She could have returned for pentos once she gained unsullied but she turned towards yunkai ..
She could still have left out meereen but she went there too and she could have left the place but decided to stay there ..
She only agreed to marry hizdar because it’s good for the realm
Don’t you think these are enough to show that she halts her big plans for something that she doesnt needed to and that she will put good of the realm against her personal interests..
Ten Bears,
Maybe Jon and Daeny will somehow meet up in a Westeros BBQ joint and their taste for good ole fashioned BBQ will make them feel born again as foodies. Plenty of salt and smoke to be had there…
Yea I know that was lame, but it’s getting near the end of my workday and I’m running out of wit here.
TPTWP is not going to rule anything. Jon is the Christ figure of the story. No way he ends up on the iron throne, if it even exists at the end. He will sacrifice himself to save the world. That is the fate of all TPTWP/ Christ figures through out literature.
dragonbringer,
No, not really, although, keep in mind I said I think Daeny will do the right thing in the end.
She freed the slaves, but she also freed them with a certain motivation in mind. She wanted to add them to her growing army, so she can take the Iron Throne. I would call freeing slaves certainly falls under the “do the right thing” category, but she got something out of it that makes her more powerful in the end. To me, sacrifice is ALL about doing the right thing even though you don’t make any profit or gain from it.
No gravy. No pie.
(Sorry, I couldn’t resist.)
Ten Bears,
But dragonstone is not just an ordinary island its an valconic island created by a valconic explosion..
You can’t find a single picture of dragonstone without smoke
This is picture of dragon stone from the book The World of Ice and Fire ..which I hope will give you the idea why it may be called island of salt and smoke ..
https://68.media.tumblr.com/9b39ee4e37ea7115389d58f35d9e4a17/tumblr_ndaquzQnH31qmtv72o1_400.jpg
http://www.tor.com/2014/10/30/the-world-of-ice-and-fire-book-art/
Mr Derp,
Sure. But after Astapor, what does she really gain? Yunkai has bed slaves, there’s no warriors to be gained there. She doesn’t gain an army from Meereen. In the show, I believe Daenerys has everything ready to sail for Westeros by S4E05, yet she decides to stay
Mr Derp,
I have to disagree with you here… Everytime Dany freed slaves (when she burned Khal Drogo, when she slayed the masters of Astapor, etc), she always gave them the opportunity to leave with no strings attached. And some of them did. The Unsullied, however, decided to remain with her (it was THEIR choice)… So, I disagree with you when you say that she had ulterior motives to free the slaves or conquer the slaver cities. She never forced anyone to be part of ther army.
I could agree with you that she had some ulterior motives when she burned the Khals: she unified the khalasars and gained a massive cavalry.
dragonbringer,
For ease of comparison, I excerpted Melisandre’s ShowProphecy recitals, followed by the book counterpart you quoted. Your bold-face highlighting didn’t survive my cut-and-paste. Sorry about that.
In addition to changes in the language of the bleeding star(s) and other details, there are many other aspects of book prophecies (interpretations?) that haven’t been included in the show at all, eg the thing about how the dragon must have three heads, and the Targaryan lineage requirement. (Where did those come from anyway? Did Rhaegar read that stuff in a book somewhere?)
______________
ShowMelisandre Prophecy Recitals: Excerpts from S2e1 & S2e4
[S2e1: Dragonstone beach idols burning; red comet in the night sky; Mel recites prophecy; proclaims Stannis “warrior of Light”, and invites him to draw sword from the bonfire]
***
Mel: “After the long summer, darkness will fall heavy on the world. The stars will bleed. ”
“The cold breath of winter will freeze the seas…
And the dead shall rise in the North. ”
“In the ancient books, it is written that a warrior will draw a burning sword from the fire. And that sword shall be Lightbringer.”
…
“Stannis Baratheon, warrior of light, your sword awaits..”
__________________
[S2e4, at Stannis-Renly parlay]
***
Mel: “You should kneel; he’s the Lord’s chosen, born amidst salt and smoke.”
Renly: “‘Born amidst salt and smoke’! Is he a ham?”
_______________
BookMelisandre Passage
“He is not dead. Stannis is the Lord’s chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark. I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragon-stone is the place of smoke and salt.”
Jon had heard all this before. “Stannis Baratheon was the Lord of Dragonstone, but he was not born there. He was born at Storm’s End, like his brothers.” He frowned.
Mr Derp,
Like I said if she just wanted men she could have brought some for her and left ..she doesn’t think about getting an army when she decided to buy them all she just wanted to end their misery and she ended up with more mouths to feed than she could ..
Of course I don’t deny she hasn’t gained from that …but you have to admit even jon has gained from his sacrifices …
Only edmure didn’t gain anything …for me these are the three characters who put people first..for some extant doran too
But like you I also agree both will be ready to make the sacrifices if that is required
Ten Bears,
Iam Curious who did you thought it was or will be ..though I have to guess it will be one of these four
Jamie Davos Jorah and Sandor
dragonbringer,
Sorry if I’m missing something. I’m NOT being rude, but all I see in the pictures is mist or fog in the atmosphere outside the castle, but no smoke from the castle and no smoldering volcanos.
Please understand, I’m not doubting what you say. It’s just that Mel made such a big deal about it at the parlay ( and Renly mocked her for it) in the show.
Jay Targ,
I think Daeny did the right thing by staying in Meereen, however, it was mostly because she didn’t think leaving Meereen in a poor state would help her get the Iron Throne. I don’t think I’d personally call that a significant sacrifice. That’s really my point. I don’t think Daenerys has had to sacrifice a whole lot yet, but I believe she will do so when necessary. I’m not saying she hasnt sacrificed anything at all, she definitely has.
Now back to the Hot Pie that was promised…
Ten Bears,
Yes rhaegar read it in the book o guess but its only mentioned once in the series and to daenerys only and like everyone I believed its about three dragon riders but after many rereads I came up with some thing does made sense to me ..
Remember that Dead has risen in the north and darkness has fallen over the world at the start of season 1 ..
And dany wakes the dragons and pulls them out of fire under the bleeding star ..
The hatching of the dragons happen right after the end of long Sumner as you can know season 2 starts with KL receiving white raven ..
If you have time and wish to read more about all the book mentions of the prophecy ..I have made a thread where I compiled all of them and made a theory which made sense to me ..you can go through it if you like and tell me what you think …
But I have to warn you its very long read
https://watchersonthewall.com/topic/book-and-show-spoilers-dany-is-the-three-headed-dragon/
This may be way off base, so you guys don’t maul me too badly if you don’t agree, but I’m beginning to think many of the prophecies are reconciled by blending them together. It has been assumed that the “the dragon has three heads” prophecy refers only to three dragon riders. It’s an easy assumption to make, since the legends tell of 3 dragon riders in the past. But maybe the 3 heads theory refers to exactly that: meaning 3 minds working for a Targaryen cause. That way, both Jon and Dany can be chosen ones, and the third mind would be Tyrion’s. This is just off the top of my head and after a real quick reading of all that was written today.
Mr Derp,
You are missing the point ..dany didn’t need to go into yunkai and meereen in the first place ..they don’t have any soldiers ..they only had bed slaves ..
Remember the scene with dany barristan and jorah outside yunkai she could have turned her back on the city which is what both barristan and jorah wanted but she wanted to go ahead because something like 80000 reasons to take yunkai because that many slaves were there ..once freed they all became burden to her
Ten Bears,
Well what you call fog may very well be smoke and all those mountains surrounding the castle or valcanoes..
That’s why the dragons are drawn to that island and why dragonglass are mined there ..
I don’t know why you are placing more importance on what Renly said ..he always mocks people that’s what he does ..he even mocks shireen I believe for her greyscale ..
Unless this crackpot of yours involve the ham part and you are hoping he will be born amidst chickens ..so I guess its Sandor am I right.
Iam sorry but like I said its not just salt and smoke part but other parts must also be connected and fulfilled ..you can find in the thread I attached all the book mentions of the prophecy and you can see whether your pick fits with the bill.
Mr Derp,
Putin’s Broken Puppet? 😀
Wimsey,
That’s the guy!
That is one point that I see repeated over and over: that Daeny really liberated the slaves in order to re-enslave them. However: Daeny never thinks that, and GRRM writes what they think. On the contrary, Daeny is surprised that so many are so eager to follow her: in a way, she has learned part of the answer to Varys’ riddle about where power really resides.
I think that Daeny does have some other motives for staying in Meereen: namely, she’s burned out and the thought of picking up everything and taking Westeros is just too draining. We have all been there: you just finish something big, and part of you is “Seize the moment! Do the NEXT big THING!” but another part of you is “I’mmmm sooooo tiredddd…..”
The other thing to remember is that Daenerys, just like Jon, still is young and evolving. Her (and his) sociopolitical views are being shaped on the fly. Both rapidly learn that the simple moral codes by which they were raised are inadequate. Both make mistakes along the way: but that’s fine (at least in a story!) because that’s part of character growth.
I think that is the key: the smoke and salt refer to the volcanic island. Of course, it could refer to other combinations of smoke and salt. For example, when Jon is stabbed, condensed water rises from his wounds (as will happen in very cold conditions) and some people think that blood is salty (it’s really not); so, blood and salt! Of course, Mel might anoint Jon with salts before she revives him: she was rubbing him down with something, and in a book, we’d learn what that was.
Again, I would not be surprised if we wind up with at least two people that fit the fairly general terms of the prophecy.
Wimsey,
And also don’t forget she learns that her father was a madman which she thought wrong for all her life and the one person she trusted has betrayed her and spying her ..
These all must have taken the toll on her ..
There are large veins of obsidian there, too, which is something that you’d expect in an area with lots of tectonic activity also producing vulcanism. In the books, it’s made very clear that the island is volcanic: there are lots of hot springs and things like that that as a result.
dragonbringer,
Indeed! And Jon gets betrayed by his sworn brothers, after he has to betray his girlfriend while pretending to betray his sworn brothers!
Really, the parallels between Jon & Daeny are about as tight as ever I have read for two protagonists! But this is also why it is a folly to judge either of them by what they were like in the first book/season: they’ve changed a LOT in recent years.
dragonbringer,
Ok, you can stop right there with that nonsense. I understand everything that is being said…If anyone is having trouble understanding, then perhaps it’s you. I don’t have any problem with Daenerys and I think she has sacrificed a lot, just not as much as others have. There’s nothing controversial about it and that was the only point I was making, which was like 3 hours ago. Stop trying to make an issue where there is none.
Mr Derp,
OK if you wish that’s cool ..
Wimsey,
Exactly and that’s why I like both of them because how similar their sufferings and growth has been .
In other news, Battle of the Bastards have been nominated for a BAFTA, in the Virgin TV’s Must-See Moments category.
The winner is decided by the public, but it’s also a competition where you can win tickets to the ceremony so I don’t know if you can vote outside of the UK.
http://https://keepup.virginmedia.com/bafta
Hey Watchers this has nothing to do with anything GoT but I am dying with excitement for the premiere of The Leftovers and The White Princess this Sunday. That is all.
Oh! Catelyn is Lady Beaufort on The White Princess. Bam. I made it about GoT.
Thronetender,
That could work… 🙂
Wimsey,
Agreed! They both have come a long way.
ramses,
Lady Crane (Essie Davis) is supposed to be in The White Princess too. If you know more about it and recommend it, maybe it’d be a good addition to the discussion under the recent post suggesting shows to watch before GoT starts back up again.
Wimsey,
Well, the existence of obsidian deposits Stannis mentioned in his interview of Sam the Slayer is one of the reasons I suspect Sam + Jon will figure out a way to weaponize Dragonglass (frozen fire) into a napalm-like substance for use in a flamethrower-type weapon. That’d take care of the “wake dragons from stone” Book!requirement for Jon.
On the show, I didn’t see any indications that there were active volcanoes on Dragonstone, or even steaming hotsprings. If there had been actual “smoke” in the castle when Daeny was born, the place would’ve been unsafe and uninhabitable.
But then again, I’m not a vulcanologist or an interior designer, so I’m not qualified to speculate about conditions that would be caused by dormant or active volcanos.
If there were “smoke” in or on Dragonstone, it would’ve been nice if they’d given us a visual of it on the show.
But I’ll defer to book readers on this point.
Wimsey,
PS. I hope I didn’t come off as sounding snarky or petulant…
Leaving it up to a viewer (or reader) to make logical connections is a sign of respect.
I didn’t want it to seem like I’m demanding that the showrunners spoon-feed me every little detail, eg: “Show me a big pile of f-cking salt ! I wanna see plumes of smoke ! Or at least show someone salting and smoking pastrami!”
Also, it probably doesn’t help that the language of the prophecy in the show is different from the book version. (Mixing and matching bits from each one gets confusing. For exsmple, I can forget if I’m looking for a bunch of bleeding stars, or just one particular red star that’s bleeding … and then start to wonder why they changed the words from book to show.)
Your idea seems as likely an explanation as any for whoever or whatever R’hllor might have been before it was “R’hllor”, though as you say, the chances of any particular guess being right are fairly slim. For all we know, it could even be a role that is passed from one person to another, like Bran became the new Three-eyed Raven, rather than a single entity that existed for the whole time.
As for the visions of the future, it’s already been demonstrated that there is magic that can see into the past and future (Jojen, Bran, Three-eyed Raven), so I see no reason why R’hllor couldn’t have a similar ability.
There has been repeated mention that “only death can pay for life”, yet Beric and Jon were both resurrected without any obvious ritual sacrifice directly involved (unless we count the many prior deaths that had happened at various times, but that seems a bit of a stretch). Possibly R’hllor is just sitting somewhere with a bunch of unfortunate captives or fanatical cultists, and sacrificing one every time Beric or Jon gets killed. It might be interesting to see how Jon or Beric would react to learning that people were being ritually slaughtered to resurrect them.
I don’t usually concern myself much looking for explanations of how these “gods” get their specific magical powers, because ultimately it comes down to the simple (but not particularly satisfying) answer of “it’s magic”. I’m interested mostly in who they are (or were) and why they do what they do, rather than how they do it.
I’m also hoping that we do eventually get some insight into the origin, nature, and motivations of R’hllor, similar to the revelations we got about the Three-Eyed Raven, the Children of the Forest, and the creation of the White Walkers. Not necessarily a detailed origin story, but at least enough to get a sense of why it’s involved in this war.
Ten Bears,
Iam sorry but that’s exactly how you sounded in that comment..
I can see you are determined to not accept the dragonstone or any argument supporting it ..
Bad luck for me I thought I can convince you but it seems obviously I have failed..
Oh you….tried to sneak that in there, did ya? Nice.
Ten Bears,
Actually Mel uses the plural terms on the books too …
Daenerys will be there this year, it seems. So, it can be shown then if it is important. Showing it earlier was not that important, and it really should have been emphasized only if it was going to be important in that season. The gun hung early in the season should be fired before the end of the season and all of that!
As for weaponizing the obsidian, I cannot help but to think that the “solution” is going to be very different. One big outstanding question is: why are the Walkers back? Another one is: why did they go away in the first place? We’ve gotten one key piece of information: they didn’t choose their path entirely; like, say, the Daleks or Cylons of SciFi works, they turned against their masters as well as on their enemies. The last bit is important: Jon & Daenerys both have “saving people” complexes that score 11 Harry Potters. Daenerys in particular, but Jon, too, strongly dislike people being forced into things. (Among the main protagonists, Tyrion has had a bad brush with slavery and Arya has always disliked being constrained by social norms; Bran does not have quite those experiences, but he yearns to be a “hero” who righteously saves people.) GRRM (and B&W) presumably have not been building up these aspects of their characters for nothing.
Right now, it is really hard to guess at what the culmination will be like simply because we don’t know what ended the last long winter and what started this one. Given GRRM’s desire for a bittersweet ending, we can expect that the resolution is going to be a painful one for the main protagonists: ultimately, they will do something that they realize needs to be done even if they don’t want to do it. Oddly, I find that the resolution to this story is much more obvious than is the resolution to the overall plots!
dragonbringer,
I just saw your link w/ BookProphecy thread. Thank you ! I will definitely read through them.
I’d been waiting for the show to conclude next year before starting the books – in part because I’d like to see if GRRM’s runaway muse returns to him so he can finish TWOW before S8.
Although I’ve been proceeding under the assumption that at this juncture the show’s scriptwriters have imparted to the viewers all of the necessary historical background, I’m wary of wasting anyone’s time on harebrained theories that may be irreconcilable with Book!canon.
It may also prove to be enlightening to see what the show has changed or left out entirely.
Anyway, thanks again.
Aw, thanks, but if it’s right, then it’s 101% luck and -1% skill. 😉
As for a “three-eyed raven” analog for R’hllor, that would have been a possibility, but I think that if there were some (say) “volcano gods” of people linked into a magical hotspot, then we should have seen something setting it up by now. The weirwoods and the fact that they were linked to religion were introduced in the very first episode. The show dropped it in at first to provide basic character development: Ned and his people were culturally distinct from people in Kings Landing, which gave us some insight as to why Ned is a sort of “noble savage” in Kings Landing. By the second season, we got some hints that there were real powers involved as Bran began to further evolve. Of course, what we got was a nice dovetailing of “warging” powers and “greenseeing” powers into “tree god” powers.
What we would have expected from GRRM and/or B&W is some compliment to weirwoods, warging, etc., for the R’hllor analog. Yes, we’ve seen fire is a conduit, which is step one: but we’ve not seen any other hints that there is something like a weirwood tree to serve as the “hub” or “cloud storage,” and we have not seen any other obviously connected unexplained powers. Given that these guys have a good track record of setting things up before doing them, I’ll assume that something not setup will not happen, at least until it does!
Ten Bears,
Yeah I would advise the same as well ..I do hope by the time next year we will have TWOW in our hands or atleast know when it will release… So once season 8 finished you would have all the books in your hand to read ( I don’t expect TDoS to be released) ..
I would like to hear your theory anyway ..because then we can prove or disprove that theory based on the show alone ..
Wimsey,
Along those lines, I’ve wondered why the WW turned against their creators. [Despite their programming, did they retain vestigial memories like Officer Murphy-RoboCop? Didn’t the COTF install a kill switch or auto-destruct mechanism? When you’re making a self-replicating weapon of mass destruction, how do you not safeguard against malfunctions?]
As for the Dragonglass at Dragonstone: yes, I suppose early next season we may learn more. It’s just that during the first six seasons, Samwell has become somewhat of a an expert on Dragonglass. His purpose in going to the Citadel was to discover ways to defend against the WW. If he’s not going to weaponize DG, I’m not sure what function he’ll have.
We will see soon enough….
Thronetender,
I’ve enjoyed Jon Snow’s evolution from whiney self-absorbed Mr. Bummer (“They hate me because I’m better than they are!”) to an empathetic, big-picture humanist – and “accidental” King. In my view, that all started when he was arguing with Ygritte about whose “land” it was. He was barking to Ygritte [paraphrasing]: “My father was Ned Stark! I have the blood of the First Men. My ancestors lived here, same as yours!”
She responded, “So why are you fighting us?” He was speechless.
Which brings us to Hot Pie. I think he’s HIS character development is what has endeared him to much of the audience. That awful bully in S1e10 threatening Arya and bragging how he killed another kid by kicking his balls in until he was dead, evolved into that sweet boy who gave his friend Arya the wolf bread – and later stuck his neck out to help Brienne help Arya. It doesn’t hurt that he’s got those running gags at his own expense (eg “WinterHELL”; knowing someone’s a knight “cuz they got armor on”).
I’m not saying Hot Pie and Jon Snow are following parallel arcs.
…. Well maybe I am. It’s too soon to tell. Let’s see how it all plays out.
Ten Bears,
Of course Jon and Hot Pie are following parallel arcs! That’s why so many people believe that Hot Pie is the real Azor Ahai 🙂 .
ghost of winterfell,
Ten Bears,
Nice.This should put the annoying parallel obsessed people who keeps finding parallels between Jon and dany in their places.LoL
Flayed Potatoes,
You see dragonbringer is too much invested in it and hate the fact Jon could has something to with this prophecy. Show go on to give us parallel of Jon and Daenerys both being procilamed by Red Priestess. Prophecy are also not meant to be literal and quite vague.
Geralt of Rivia,
From what I see Jon fulfills this dumb prophecy more lowkey and the show has been hinting at it: the closeup on Dawn being all bloody (bleeding star), Arthur Dayne dying as he is born with his bloody sword (sword of the morning), being literally a prince that was promised (“Promise me, Ned!” – it’s such an a-ha moment to me like Hodor = hold the door), his bloodline (Stark + Targ; Ice + Fire). I remember fans were upset that Dawn’s design was so simple, but to me it seemed like it was done on purpose to highlight the star on the hilt. When Young Ned puts the bloody sword against the bed, that little star is what stands out. Anyway, I could go on.
And because I have some time before I start work:
A lot of the speculations and different interpretations fans have don’t seem to me to be because they’re trying to shoehorn Jon into the prophecy, but because there are some things about Jon’s birth and resurrection that the books have not answered yet. There’s only so much the show can convey with visuals without going full cheese on us. We don’t exactly know all the circumstances of his birth and resurrection in the books, which is expected seeing as there are two huge books left in the series. It’s exactly the vague thing that Martin is talking about. Jon is not the flashiest option, but he’s still tied to these things. No denying that.
It does seem kind of strange that Dany is already proclaimed PtwP so blatantly with two books left to go (maybe more) and with her still stuck in Essos. And then you have the likes of Marwyn talking about how prophecy is treacherous and tricky yet going to Daenerys right after that. I mean dude I thought you said prophecies were deceitful just now lmao. There’s no denying she’s tied to prophecies (the pregnancy, stallion that mounts the world, younger and more beautiful queen…) and there’s no denying that she and her dragons are fire to the whitewalkers’ ice, but Jon is both ice and fire for some reason. I don’t have a horse in this race, but the hints are there.
Even in the books you have passages like:
“Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.” – AGOT Daenerys VIII
Jon is described as a shifting shadow in the books and Mel sees him as a man, a wolf, and a man again in her visions.
“A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .” – ACOK Daenerys IV
For those who believe that this foreshadows their relationship: If Jon was just ice and not associated with this prophecy, Dany would just be called bride of ice or of wolves or something. Yet she’s called bride of fire.
And what ghost of winterfell mentioned above, there’s Jon’s dream which is sent to him by Bloodraven, interestingly enough shortly before his death:
“Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. […] Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder.” – ADWD (Jon XII)
I should open a Word document and save all this shit lol.
Geralt of Rivia,
I must have gone about this discussion thousand times and yet ends up with same accusations as always like it was the first time ..
If anyone who was denying or not wanting to speak about the connections to prophecy jon has its not me …I have said many times I will whole heartedly happy when he fulfills it like dany does ..you know The one version where its accepted by everyone not the thousands of variations ..
Flayed Potatoes,
I wonder what this is supposed to mean …I notice how you leave out AAr and TPTWP when speaking about dany’s connections…ghost of winter fell and you now have come close to deny or turn her into a red herring or cast a doubt while pushing jon …and this here is what I have always speaking against because its always been like that people will talk about they don’t care and evrythjng but the moment comes they will be ready to throw dany out of the equation(am not speaking especially about you) .but somehow I always gets blamed for something iam speaking against .
But since you have raised this point I have to once again remind that he spends putting clues for dany even after that..
And its one of the points which must mean dany is a red herring .if that’s the case then why is the show bothering with dany as one who was promised if she is not ..yes she is been proclaimed in the middle of book 5 and jon snow will be proclaimed in the start of book 6 ..will that be a problem as well
For me it has always been about two targs growing up in north and east and one ice and one fire who will come together ..
Even show runners have said how one is reborn in ice and another in fire ..iam very confident that we won’t see any fire side from jon ( if that makes me a hated then so be it .,we will see who gets it right ) ..
I can go and say why dawn doesn’t make sense but I don’t think it will make much difference …anyway Jon was already born before the fight and prophecy doesn’t say born under bleeding star but the warrior have to pull the flaming sword from the fire under the bleeding star..
Benioff or weiss never fails to mention dany fulfilling a prophecy in BTS videos ..they talked about it in season 2 ,3 and 5 and if that moment was meant to be about prophecy iam sure they would have talked about it …maybe they will talk about it next season when the continuation of that scene happens but until then it doesn’t prove anything ..
While I was always being blamed that I don’t like to admit the connections jon has with prophecy because I hate him ..and completely missing what iam trying to say every time that dany like jon as more connections with prophecy too ..even in this thread I spoke about both of them as two sides of same coin and I will ask you guys to find a single comment where I said anything bad about jon or where I said he was not special or as a destiny ..
So far the last time my stand is very simple ..
Dany has fulfilled the prophecy in a definitive way where no one can question it..
Jon still has to do it or we hasnt be seen yet but when it happens I will recognise it without any dislike ..
Good day to you all
Flayed Potatoes,
Just couple of things ..
They are not transforming or switching from man to wolf in this ..both are different shadows.
But yes dany dreams that her lover is always a shifting shadow in later books after drogo died …as you point out that dany is called as bride of fire and not ice ..I would like to point out that he transforms to wolf and man and then man to wolf but not dragon or not even a third unrecognizable shift( for you can say that will spoil the reveal and they can’t have it .,but same arguments can be made for dany as well) ..
Jon as always been attributed with ice ,a stark and northerner..
dragonbringer,
Just a question.Do you think Jon will ride Rhaegal?
Your claim is so not true. This is what I said in my original comment, copy pasting it – “Imo both Jon and Dany are connected to the prophecy.” You can check my original comment.
Please leave me out of your Dany obsession, thanks.
ghost of winterfell,
The previous comment was for dragonbringer, not Flayed Potatoes. I made some mistake in quoting 🙂 .
Jenny,
Yes that was my theory like everyone when I joined the fandom named after his father and everything ..and tyrion on viserion but I changed my beliefs after season 4 and a reread after that ..I now believe as long as dany is alive or a dragon is alive there will be no other dragon riders and she has bonds with all three of them ..so yes for now I think dany alone will be the dragon rider ..
But if jon does ride rhaegal I won’t be surprised because that’s the theory I believed for 6 years and will admit my speculation was wrong
ghost of winterfell,
And yet you had that doubt which is what I was pointing out..
Jenny,
I think this name dragonbringer was part of the reason why lots of my arguments seem so biased or hater of jon and obsessed with dany ..
But the funny thing is it was RLJ that made me go join the fandom in westeros.org ..and I used the name Jon Rhaegar Stark ( you see I wanted to tell everyone about RLJ by just reading my name ) and I used to have lots of discussions on RLJ ( I don’t know what version it is on now ) about jon but then I later shifted to dragons as lightbringer theory and named dragonbringer ( just like RLJ I wanted to tell that dragons are lightbringer) and slowly I started speaking for dany more and more because I read her chapter more times ..so it was never about a character obsession but wanting to find all the clues and put it right and guess correctly ..
So may be if I change the name lik you once said it will end all the jumping to conclusions and it will look like an unbiased one .
dragonbringer,
Did I ever say you should change your name?I don’t remember that lol but you should keep your name it’s your brand™.Another question.Do you think Jon is legitimate?
dragonbringer,
What doubt? I really have no idea what you are talking about. I have absolutely no doubt that Dany is Azor Ahai, my point was that Jon is connected to the prophecy as well. Just because it has yet to be revealed exactly how and why he is connected, it doesn’t mean that the hints in books and show should be ignored.
Jenny,
Yeah I do think he is legitimate but not like how the show spoilers for next season suggests
..I think he became heir once aerys died or once viserys died ( because Raven only started calling him as King after viserys died) ..but I don’t think he will ever assume another name ..he will always remain as jon snow ..he may have an official name but wont use it ( people used to say how its not possible but now it’s exactly what happened with him being KITN ) ..he will be made legitimate by dany or by council
About the name didn’t we had a discussion about the name last year ..I don’t remember exactly as well..
ghost of winterfell,
Which I never did I ..did you ever see me telling the show or book doesn’t make all this hints at jon ..I only that dany’s been given that too ..I even said how Jon’s dream is similar to harry potter’s didn’t I ..
You stated something like how GRRm plants all the clues for jon after dany fulfills it ..which is what I was trying to point out and if you look at my comment I didn’t accuse you I just said how close you came to doubt and I just used it show how when I never doubted jon I gets blamed all the time ..that’s all
Ten Bears,
The actress who played the Waif is in that show too I think. Quite the Game of Thrones collection.
It’s funny that the Waif and one of her murder victims (Lady Crane) are both in the show.
dragonbringer,
I get what your trying to say, that both Jon and Dany are part of The Prince That Was Promised prophecy just that Dany has fulfilled more of it so far aka waking the dragons from stone etc
I do think they are both part of the prophecy it’s no coincidence that there are hints for it in the books and the show and all the parallels they share as well, I actually see Bran as a big part of it too maybe not the TPTWP but if there is gonna be chosen ones in the show it’s definitely three people not one aka Jon, Dany and Bran. I don’t think however someone is gonna be announced as it officially and all of Westeros believing in a chosen one, prophecies are never that clear cut and George has said before people take them too seriously. I see them more as a loose guide showing perhaps people in Westeros or the general audience/readers to keep an eye on the ones fulfilling them.
I’ve noticed in the show they mentioned Azor Ahai when we first met Stannis in S2 one single time from Melissandre but then she completely dropped it and started using the prince that was promised which has been used multiple times in regards to different characters aka Stannis, Dany and Jon. The other big prophecy which I always thought was the biggest was Three Heads Of The Dragon as Dany is so aware of it in the books it’s repeated to her multiple times, that she needs two others, hell Rhaegar practically died trying to fulfill it but I don’t recall it ever being mentioned on the show.
Also if there is ever gonna be a red herring to any prophecy I imagine it will be FAegon, people were always supsicous of him not only coming into the books so late but Dany being told previously about a Mummer’s Dragon and her being the slayer of lies and then they completely erased him in the show so I think it’s pretty obvious now.
Anyway from what my viewpoint is, is that Jon, Dany and Bran will be the big 3 who are most important against the fight of the White Walkers and all three of them couldn’t do it without the other two no matter what title a prophecy may or may not give them.
Jenny,
dragonbringer,
I agree in the show for sure, from what we’ve heard about S7 spoilers it doesn’t sound like to me that Jon will ride Rhaegal. For the final season there will be 6 episodes and I don’t think that is enough time for Jon to create a bond with and then ride a dragon. If he does it unfortunately wouldn’t feel very genuine.
In the books it could however be another matter entirely, with how thick the books are GRRM has a lot more time and leeway to have Jon and Rhaegal create a bond if he wants to.
Faye was in The White Queen, but I don’t believe her character, Anne Neville, is in The White Princess.
Clob,
Well, so much for that then. I didn’t even know there was a difference, thanks.
I think how Jon was resurrected can’t be called downplaying the event, I think that is exactly how it should be. Remember that shot in BoB where Jon was trapped in the middle of his army gasping for air while looking up? I think that was a tribute to Dany’s Mhysa Mhysa scene. I think it was intentional that Jon woke up alone or resurrected alone in the middle of nowhere with no one waiting for him compared to Dany having been surrounded with people who worshipped her, kneeling. It fits in with the whole Dany vs. Jon, Hero vs. underdog thing they got going. Also, I don’t think Jon was not ambitious or that he doesn’t want to lead. In the books I remember him naming himself Lord of Winterfell when he was playing with Robb when they were kids and Robb shuts him down saying he can’t be Lord of Winterfell cause he’s a bastard and then there was that time when he received Long Claw and he somewhat got disappointed because it wasn’t Ice. In the show, after knowing Robb died, he rememebered him by saying he wanted everything he had, the way their father looked at him (Robb), etc. We can’t ignore how happy he was too when he got promoted to Lord Commander and KITN. He definitely has ambitions.
Mr Derp,
🙂 I may never finish The White Queen. I’ve tried to watch it a number of times but end up turning it off during episodes for something more entertaining. Some quotes in the Reception section of the wiki page pretty much hit on my feelings… “fell between two stools—not serious enough for the scholars nor glitzy enough for the Game of Thrones fans.” and “even if dragons were allowed, they’d mostly be lounging around and, between bouts of relatively tame dragon sex, talking about eating people rather than actually eating them.”
The White Princess is a sequel of sorts but doesn’t appear that one needs to have seen the other. I’m interested in watching though purely because Michelle and Essie will be combative mothers of the king and queen. 🙂
Mel,
Yeah Lots of times people forget that there are other characters and prophecies in the story ..people forget Cersei.,Stannis., Rhaegar and melisandre all acting on believing the prophecy and want to fulfill or trying to stop ..so Marywn’s comments or GRRm comments can mean about this characters..
Now bran is vital to all this but I don’t think he has any connection to the prophecy because it has to be a dragon and not wolf ..
Regarding Three headed dragon .Rhaegar mentions its once in the HOTU …and dany and jorah like rhaegar and aemon believe its about three riders like aegon and his sisters which is exactly why think they are wrong here ..its similar to how dany thinks she can’t have children but she can actually have ..i think show used something similar to three headed dragon when the show came up with one who was promised instead of prince ..
What’s interesting about Jon or dany is they don’t actually know that they are fulfilling a prophecy but they have reached this place by their own choice and decisions ..which is what GRRm was going as well. .when the moment arrives they will be leading because of their choices and not because of their fulfillment..
Regarding Dragons I believe that applies in the books as well ..euron’s dragonbinder will be able to help with that I believe ..but let’s see we don’t have to wait for TDOS because if there are other riders iam sure we will see them in TWoW..
P.S.
I don’t think (more like hope not) Jon will ever ride a dragon both in the books and the show. He should be in command of the forces on the ground and he’s very good with swords so if he rides a dragon in battle it’ll be such a waste of his growth both as a swordsman and battle commander if he fights in the air, killing his enemies just by saying ‘Dracarys’. That’ll be so anti-climactic. Also, Drogon is bigger than both Viserion and Rhaegal but if Jon gets to ride a dragon, it’ll only be between the latter two. Won’t that make Jon look weaker/less powerful than Dany when he has more skills and more battle-tested and should be leading the whole army? Anyways, that’s just my opinion influenced by my strong bias for Jon and House Stark.
Clob,
I’ve caught a few clips of the show, but now that you mention it, I don’t really know whether I was watching the Queen or the Princess. I would assume the Queen one since I believe the White Princess hasn’t premiered yet? I remember seeing some guy receiving a “fool’s death” by being drowned in a barrell of wine, but that’s about it. Meh, whatevah!
Summer Child,
The difference between Jon’s and dany’s is that dany did not come out of fire alone but with three dragons so it means people will speak about it and there is a proof in front of their eyes..whereas when jon comes back it will affect him personally but not as globally like hatching dragons ..
dragonbringer,
Yes. Dany is an OP character right from the start that’s why her resurrection was perfect for her, “magical” and in the same way, Jon’s resurrection is perfect for him too. Simple and not glorious. Some people were saying that it was a pretty ordinary scene and kind of underwhelming but I think it fits well with his character and storyline.
Summer Child,
The Jon in the crowd scene and Mhysa scene: It was something that happened by accident because Miguel was running out of time to film due to the weather. This was never written into the story prior. I wouldn’t even compare the two scenes tbh: one is a guy struggling to stay alive and the other is peak white savior complex which brought a lot of criticism to Dany’s storyline. Really not a good look.
dragonbringer,
Please point to where ghost of winterfell and I called her a red herring. We never used the word. I said she’s fire (isn’t that something the prophecy mentions?) If Dany had been the only person representing that prophecy, the readers wouldn’t have had the confirmation so early in the story. Jon also has ties to ptwp like she does. Or you can argue that she’s azor and he’s ptwp… really there’s room for everyone. Who cares.
Re: Jon’s resurrection on the show – He’s supposedly just ice yet he was resurrected by fire magic. He’s not resurrected in ice. I don’t know how Dany’s khal barbecue is her being reborn since you have to die for that to happen, but whatever I’ll let this one go. I mean, there’s no denying she is fire like there’s no denying WW are ice. You guys can insert Dany into what you want, but that doesn’t change Jon’s lineage (Targ = fire; Stark = Ice), which will probably be explored in full in the last 2 seasons. Not just confirming his mom.
Re: shadows – Of course there are different shadows; he won’t stay in Ghost forever. I don’t know what the problem is here. He’s a man “wreathed in flames”, Mel sees him in her flames. Dany is the bride of fire not the bride of snowflakes (provided they have a relationship). The fire imagery is still there.
“Jon as always been attributed with ice ,a stark and northerner..” – so what if this changes? what is he bonds or hangs out with a dragon? what if…*le gasp* Jon is not a Stark? Kit said Jon will go through some changes. His parentage should be a pretty big thing and his Targ heritage would have to be addressed. He’s not going to stay stuck in the north 5ever and he’s bound to have a huge identity crisis.
Flayed Potatoes,
Oh really? I didn’t know that. Needless to say it was a very nice addition to the BoB scene. And about Jon and Dany, I just get the feeling that that’s what the show is going for. Both are contenders for the iron throne or power but one started from the bottom and kept struggling while the other, though still was in a pretty bad situation at the start, everything else came kind of easy after. This is the reason, I’m assuming why Jon is much more sympathized/loved by both show and (especially) book fans.
ghost of winterfell,
Don’t worry! 🙂
Summer Child,
One of Kit’s greatest fears is being crushed to death by people, so he suggested this idea to Miguel. He talked about this after the episode aired. The ‘similarity’ is really an accident.
Yeah that’s certainly one of the reasons. It doesn’t help that Dany is stuck in Meereen for so long, surrounded by cardboard characters and mustache twirling villains and away from the main action, while Jon’s chapters take place right where the big endgame enemy is supposed to strike. In my opinion as readers/viewers, we know that she’s going to be okay since she needs to get to Westeros and that eliminates a lot of the suspense and unpredictability from her storyline.
Mr Derp,
No,you’re confusing this with the White Queen which appeared a few years ago and focused on the War of the Roses,this is the sequel to that and focuses on Henry Tudor and Elizabeth of York,basically the start of the Tudor dynasty .
I hope Jon meets with Sam again.He has a lot of storms coming lol and Sam is one of the people that know him the best.He could help him see that things are not so doom and gloom.I’m just worried about Jon.I’m guessing he won’t be taking the news very well.
Jenny,
I think it’s really important HOW the news of his parentage is conveyed and in what circumstances. I trust Season 7-8 Jon to handle it better than Season 1 Jon lol, but it’s still going to be very difficult for him. I live for Jon angst and character development though, so hopefully it’s executed well.
dragonbringer, and others who’ve been discussing in-universe legends and prophecies here. Thanks for all the interesting views.
I think the show is very sparing in its use of “prophecy”, it’s only really used two-ish times.
First, Mel’s prophecies regarding Stannis (Azor Ahai, the Lord’s chosen, the one that was promised etc.) and a tiny hint in S6 when Mel tells Davos now Jon is the one that was promised (and Davos promptly shuts her up.) This seems like an amalgamation of the AAR and TPTWP legends/prophecies from the books. So that’s one, maybe one-and-a-half.
Second, there’s the Maggy prophecy for Cersei. The bit that interests us here is the latter part (after the earlier parts have all come true: not marry the prince (Rheagar, as Cersei would’ve wanted) but the king (Robert), all her children dying), now we’re into “younger and more beautiful Queen taking it all away from her”. That’s clearly Dany. The show left out the “valonqar” part of the prophecy (probably because it would’ve been too spoilery).
Many confuse all the rich legend/prophecy material from the books with the show’s pretty sparing and straighforward approach. The books have 4 strands of this hero/saviour legend/prophecy, sort of 5 if you include Cersei’s Maggy prophecy (because of the YMBQ – typically, Cersei isn’t concerned about the end of the world, just herself and that somebody could be more beautiful, younger, more powerful… lol).
I’ll end here and continue in the next post about book legends/prophecies.
Flayed Potatoes,
Oh yeah Kit is gonna nail it.I can’t wait and I love the angst.It’s just that at this point he is so attached to his Stark roots and Ned and even though he is still a Stark,in their world a lot of their identity comes from the father side.No one thinks of the stark children as Tullys even though they are as much Stark as Jon is.Plus he wouldn’t take so well to the whole a war happened cause my parents wanted to bang.Plus as you know other complicating factors relating to the Targ side.If Sam was there he would put things in a different perspective lol.Like come on dude it’s not that bad.
talvikorppi,
One interesting thing about the PTWP prophesy is that we don’t know how exactly it sounds. Mel red it in some ancient book and then retold it in pieces here and there. She was also very biased and tried to bend this prophesy to fit Stannis; hence, some things could have been omitted and/or misinterpreted. All I know, someone (maybe, Mel herself) has to check the book again. I guess it’s in the library of Dragonstone.
Jon Snow Targaryen is the Prince that was Promised
and
Tyrion Lannister is Azor Ahai
The show has only used the Cersei/Maggy prophecy (mostly irrelevant in this topic, except for the “younger, more beautiful queen” bit), and Mel’s prophecies (which she attached to Stannis, and now, maybe, to Jon, but Davos told her to shut the fuck up.) Mel’s show pronouncements seem an amalgamation of two book legends/prophecies.
I’m not sure what the site policy is now that the show has passed the books (so book stuff left out from the show is “forever lost” but still can give clues to the show’s future), but as a courtesy to Ten Bears, Dee and others who haven’t read the books but intend to, I’ll put the rest in spoilers. (Sorry, this is going to be a looong one 🙂 )
The four strands in the books seem to be:
1) the eastern Azor Ahai legend and prophecy
2) the Dothraki Stallion that Mounts the World prophecy
3) the Targaryen Prince that Was Promised prophecy
4) the Northern/First Men legend of the Last Hero
As you can see, the fourth one has no prophecy attached, but I’ll come to that in time. Let’s start with the first one.
1. Azor Ahai
I think it’s important to separate the legend and the prophecy. The legend (courtesy of Salladhor Saan in ACOK) tells how AA forged his legendary “Lightbringer” to fight (in the Long Night?). Tempered it first in water, then in a lion’s heart, then in his beloved wife Nissa Nissa’s heart.
This has led countless fans speculating on “who will be the ‘modern’ Nissa Nissa’?” “Jon will kill Arya/Dany/Sansa/whomever” “Dany will kill Drogon/Jon/whomever”…
Blatantly disregarding the actual prophecy part, given to us by none other than Melisandre, which never mentions Nissa Nissa or similar – why would she? The “magic sword” has already been forged, the second coming of Azor Ahai only needs to claim his old sword.
The Azor Ahai Reborn prophecy (or at least Mel) tells us that he will be born amidst salt and smoke, wake dragons from stone and draw a sword from fire. (See, no Nissa Nissas here.)
Mel orchestrated to have two, twice, just to be on the safe side. Dragonstone, a volcanic island naturally provides salt (the sea) and smoke (volcanic activity) but to make doubly sure she staged the burning of the gods ceremony on the beach. Burning the seven (false) gods provide the smoke, the sea the salt, and the burning sword Stannis pulls from the burning god (the Mother, IIRC) “proves” he’s the Lord’s chosen, AA reborn. Now she only misses the “waking dragons from stone” part of the prophecy, and she does her very best to convince Stannis to burn his bastard nephew Edric Storm (Gendry in the show) “to wake dragons from stone”. (Davos saves the poor boy both in books and show.)
While Mel has been doing all these mummeries, Dany has actually woken dragons from stone (Khal Drogo’s pyre), she was actually born on Dragonstone, so amidst salt and smoke. Has she pulled a “magic sword” from fire? Yes, if you take it metaphorically and her dragons are a “flaming sword”. So Dany is the number one contender for Azor Ahai Reborn.
What has Jon got? Not much. His Valyrian steel sword, Longclaw, was given to him by LC Mormont after it was pulled from a fire, though. From the smouldering wreck of the Lord Commander’s tower that Jon set on fire, while destroying the wight and saving LC Mormont’s life.
That’s the first one covered.
I’m not sure how “born amidst salt and smoke” would fit Jon, first time or second time. There’s all these suggestions about tears (=salt) and “smoking” (=steaming because it was cold outside) blood… But smoke is quite different from steam.
I think that’s a hint, AAR/TPTWP is not one person, it’s two or more, working together.
Sorry for long posts. I’ll try to be more succint in my next ones.
Flayed Potatoes,
I’ll join you in not really needed Jon to fulfill a prophesy to find his story compelling, but, as you also pointed out, GRRM likes to drop his hints, and there’s a reason that Jon’s the character who gets theorized about the most, as evidenced by the interview in this article. People familiar with storytelling conventions and how GRRM plays with them already went down this road with R+L=J and Jon’s “death.” When you take eons between books, people figure shit out, and the old argument that “GRRM wouldn’t do X because it’s too obvious” doesn’t fly when you’re talking about foreshadowing. And, as you’ve already pointed out, being as heavy-handed as he’s been with Dany so early in the story makes it clear that, at the very least, it’s not as simple as her being the sole AA/PtwP. How can it, when six seasons and five books in she still doesn’t even know about the threat that she’s allegedly supposed to be leading humanity against according to some?
For me it has less to do with attempting literal interpretations of prophecies (what have we been cautioned by GRRM against doing, again and again?) and more to do with the role itself. TPtwP is meant to be the figure who leads humanity into the long night. Six seasons in, we know precisely who that figure is, and the first promo of season 7 spells it out even further for anyone who hasn’t clued in. All those VO’s about conquest and battling over a chair, and who comes in with the cold, hard truth in the end? Jon’s already fulfilling the job description of AA/PtwP, with or without bleeding stars, because of his actions, not because of flashiness or magical abilities. Whether or not he’s legitimate or ever rides a dragon doesn’t matter when he’s already assumed the role of uniting the realm against the army of the dead.
OK, this will address other than Azor Ahai legends and prophecies, as they are presented in the books. (My points 2, 3, and 4 in a previous post.
To recap, I identified 4 legends/prophecies + Cersei’s Maggy the Frog prophecy (which has some relevance, as to the “younger, more beautiful queen” = Dany)
As it’s mostly book stuff, I’ll put it in spoilers.
This is pretty straightforward in the show. Dany burns the khals, survivers the fire, all Dothraki bow to her… In the books, the Dothraki, or rather, their Dosh Khaleen, their spiritual leaders, had a “messianic” prophecy about the Stallion that Mounts the World, the khal of khals who will unite all the khalasars and conquer the world.
They thought it’d be Khal Drogo’s and Dany’s son, but it’s clearly Dany. And she’s not a foreign conqueror of the Dothraki, she was one of them (book 1 stuff), maybe still is.
What is the Dothraki legend? Ghost grass, end of the world. Is that a reference to the Long Night? All grass dying and replaced with what sounds very much like frozen grass. Ghost grass.
But, yeah, Dany ticks the boxes for the Dothraki saviour figure.
These posts are getting so long, I’ll get to points 3 and 4 next.
elybe,
Exactly!! Say it louder for the people in the back!
https://media.giphy.com/media/5yLgoceQDgD7aZzlaZG/giphy.gif
Jon doesn’t need to follow prophecies in order to realize what the real war is. He already knows the threat and has been fighting against it. He’d just shrug and carry on chopping whitewalkers. Even when Mel was yapping about PTWP when he got revived his face was like “dafuq go home Melly, you’re drunk”. He was not in the mood to hear that lmao.
Flayed Potatoes,
There is one more thing about Jon which might be important. Deep in his heart Jon is so ambitious and independent, that he can’t stand to be a follower – even a follower of a god. Beeing “choasen” or “promised” is not for Jon: he wants to go his own way and make his own decisions. He was tempted to put his trust in the Lord of Light on the eve of the Battle of the Bastards, but even then he was conflicted about his resurrection and all that stuff. And now he knows that the Lord of Light commands to burn children and has a good reason to doubt motivations of this diety. Hence, Jon is pushing aside all the prophesies and other magic stuff. He may have some trust in the Old Gods, but recent experiences could have made him cautious about them, too. Now he is just a very straightforward military man who sees his enemy and looks for practical solutions how to beat it. However, given that the enemy is magic, some sort of divine assistance may be required after all and I really look forward how Jon is going to deal with this issue, because I’m affraid it will go against his beliefs and moral convictions (at least the preset ones).
Next up, in my series of book stuff on legends/prophecies:
3. The Prince That Was Promised.
The show seems to conflate Mel’s (Rhlloers) Azor Ahai, the promised one. Having read the main books and Jon’s own thoughts, it seems everybody is wrong. Wait for Jon’s moral verdict? He has to get away from poor dead Ned’s rigid, counterintuitive and nearly counterfactual “honour”. “facts”. But it’s maybe a Targ thing… I’m soo tired now that I’ll leave my other inteligent and witty points for another day.
This is not trivial! We know that there are several relevant prophecies, or several versions of the same prophecies, floating around out there. We know how Rhaegar interpreted them. We know how Mel interpreted them. What we do not know is exactly what they say. We do not know what the commonalities are among the different versions.
I am betting that Sam will stumble upon certain legal documents that could have much bearing on a friend of his….. (After all, it would be the Maesters who would be the keepers of documents!)
As for the Walkers, if it just becomes about killing them all, then SoI&F will wind up being no more than just another epic fantasy that is all plot and no real story.
talvikorppi,
I appreciate the spoiler coding. Not only because I’m waiting until the show concludes next year, but because I’ve found that when I try to reconcile tidbits from the books with what’s been presented in the “show universe”, I get hopelessly confused.
Even small changes in the wording of the “prophecies” gets me wondering “well, why did they change it? What’s all this stuff about the dragon having three heads? Does it have anything to do with Arya’s show-only scene with Tywin in which she reminded him that it wasn’t only Aegon riding a dragon, but his two sisters as well? And what’s up with “bleeding stars” (plural), or is it just one red bleeding star?”
I could go on and on. My big problem is that I can’t tell if the show’s scriptwriters omitted certain things because they would ultimately be insignificant (and even if colorful window-dressing, couldn’t be justified due to time and budget constraints), or for some other reason.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not complaining about “book passages” discussions. At this point, the show is so far past the books that I don’t think there are any Red Wedding-level surprises to spoil. It seems to me that if anything, the show is now “spoiling” the future books (eg origin of Hodor’s Hodor), and telegraphing which book characters aren’t going to be important to the “end-game” by jettisoning them early.
I just hope I’m justified in assuming that the show-runners have included enough of the details from books so that everything ties together by the end of S8. I’m going to feel like a real idiot if the last episode fades to black, and I’m sitting there befuddled going “WHAT???” (Or if Arya gets whacked.)
Inga,
You’ve hit on (what I’ve thought is) an important point about these purported “prophecies”; Just as in the real world, accounts of ancient events and predictions get misinterpreted, fragmented or embellished over the millennia. Sometimes myths and legends are “tweaked” to give them a religious slant or teach a “moral lesson.” Or, like Mel/Stannis, to “fit” a particular person or event.
That there are multiple versions of the same prophecy in GoT may very well mean they there is no “original text”: so many people have been revising and retelling them to present their own customized versions, so you end up with a Stallion Who Mounts the World” in one culture and a “Prince that Was Promised” in another.
Oh, also: who knows if AA and PTWP are one and the same? Mel seems to be conflating them. I thought they were two different figures.
talvikorppi,
Hey, your prophecy posts are really good. I’m wondering if you’d be willing to assemble them into one document and post it in the forum section or something. (I’d do it, but I wouldn’t want to publish someone else’s work as if it were my own. )
When the show concludes, it might be interesting to compare how the “prophecies” played out, with the way they were framed in the source material.
Flayed Potatoes,
elybe,
Didn’t I just say the same thing about both jon and dany in the above one of my comments except you all say that only for jon. .
As the threat goes no one knows them except for those who are at north of wall and at the wall ..So jon evidently knows ..but knowing alone doesn’t work or help …it will be like hard home again when he faces them again and he has lost his surprise element too..I thought this is humanity war and there can be no one leader and all ( this is what I hear when someone suggests leaving out jon )
Another character from targ who was forced to grow upon essos and stumble upon those cultures who have same versions of the prophecy and collects them which will all come to help when dany learns about it ..
And when she learns she will go and help not because she is any chosen one but she is that character who wants to save her people ..
If people think this doesn’t matter than I don’t know what to say ..
Ten Bears,
It has everything to do with aegon and his sisters ..if you ask anyone is westeros what is three headed dragon supposed to mean they will say it refers to aegon and his sisters riding their dragons and conquering westeros ..
Because Aegon created a Three headed dragon for his house sigil every body assumes it refers to him and his sisters ..
So those who have read the books like Rhaegar and Maester Aemon where prophecy is mentioned and the term three headed dragon is used they just to choose to believe its about three riders like aegon and his sisters ..
Its what jorah says to dany when she tells what rhaegar says to him and its what dany too start believing ..
And its what all the fans who read the books or watch the show will come believe as well ..that’s why three riders equal to three headed dragon is so popular ..
And these are the exact reason why I believe that its not about three riders but only one because the prophecy doesn’t say three dragon HEADS but THE DRAGON must have three heads ..
Aegon I believe like his ancestors and successors believed and looked for the promised Prince …he may have even thought himself to be the one and created the sigil ..
Its very simple I think …the difference is that of Mel Quoting exactly what is in the books and another instance is her pharaphrasing ..
As you pointed out while the tale and myths keep repeated its get changed …take for example how now everyone believes born under bleeding star when the wording of the prophecy is not that at all ..
The show as you say have ommited too much details but included the prophecy all the same and given us the answers and show runnees speak about them in their videos ..this must be enough for show ..
For instance they have omitted all the details of prophecy and simply state Dany is the one who was promised and was reborn from fire but that doesn’t mean they tell us wrong because they use the same character from the books and we can use the books to confirm what the show has been doing ..
Wimsey,
I’ve been speculating that Sam will be the Werner von Braun of the Dragonglass Weaponization Program because he’s the one who found it and learned of its lethal properties, while nobody else had a clue; he researched it, learned of the Dragonstone DG deposits from Stannis (who told him, “keep reading, Samwell Tarly”, to learn how to defend against the imminent WW invasion), and after discussing with Jon the paucity of Valaryan steel and the qualities of DG, asked for and obtained permission to go to the Citadel for the purpose of developing defensive weaponry.
To be honest (and I say this in all sincerity), I noticed these numerous references to Sam + DG, and started speculating about their purpose, because of all I learned from your posts about Chekhov’s hanging guns and other storytelling techniques.
I figured, why all of these scenes involving Sam and his knowledge and experience with DG, if they don’t have a payoff?
I suppose Sam’s purpose could be to unearth legal documents or discover medical treatments – though neither of them
has been framed or foreshadowed.*
* If it were up to me, Sam would realize his lifelong dream of becoming a wizard and wear one of those pointy hats while he casts magic spells.
elybe,
This can be used other way around as well
You maybe right dany may not have any part in the war or maybe she doesn’t deserve to lead the part of men because how can she when she doesn’t know they existed for six seasons .right?..
But GRRm likes to keep dropping his hints on her and show is keep doing the same thing about her too ..
Why I wonder this happens . if she is not supposed to take part or lead along why should this be happening .. From what we know of spoilers from season 7
Yes he is the most theorized about and how much do you actually think that’s because of RlJ and his secret parentage must mean he is also be the one fulfilling prophecies and others are just red herring ( confirmation bias maybe ) ..again to be clear iam not saying he can’t be but we dont need to jump and yell prophecy scene after scene ..
I really don’t think that dany is heavy handed with prophecy and jon is downplayed in his clues by GRRm ..there are lots of hints in the books that the fandom doesn’t know or talk about when it comes to dany but everyone knows about the line ” I ask for azor ahai and rhllor shows me only Snow ” a clever use of words by GRRm and I always has to smile when we how much fandom has ate this up without even reading that chapter in most cases ..
For all the talk of her being Sole AA/TpTWp most don’t say at all..people always attribute one thing to her and other to jon or willing to say both share the same ..
Bran like jon and one can even say has most with WW than jon himself ..
Of course jon is there and telling everyone about the threat but there needs to be a way of fighting them as well and there comes dany ..
It’s as simple as that for me ..
Ten Bears,
Inga,
People keep forgetting it’s not just Mel but master aemon aslo who uses the AA and TPTWP as interchangeably and now we have Kinvara as well ..
Like wimsey mentioned we have given the commonalities about then prophecies ..
Born amidst salt and smoke and bleeding star and light bringer and dragons and was of dawn are those commonalities in this ..
Of course they may end up misinterpreting but the contents doesn’t lie to us and neither I believe GRRm is trying to do one ..
If its just Mel and it was suposed to be two different people than kinvara will not be saying Dany as one who was promised but calling AAr ..
You answered your question in one of your own comments I believe ..that the story gets told many times we ended up with various different versions of prophecy ..
There could have been a prophecy about promised Prince and war of dawn each culture forgetting some points as the time goes by ..hence we ended up with Red priests ,targs and dothraki’s all believing in the same thing but differently ..
talvikorppi,
Now why I can’t be like you ..
I have been saying the same thing like you did but endlessly getting blames as a biased hater of jon ..
Yes I agree with you many confuse show’s straightforward approach with the books…but if we look carefully it may be clear to us ..
Like you pointed out that there are four versions we know of a chosen figure which directly connects war of dawn ( I will leave out Maggy’s prophecy for the time being even though I agree with what you were saying ) ..
But we know from the TWoIaF that there are other versions and other mythical fugures and legends about the same AA and war of dawn ..so I will just leave out LH for that its not a prophecy but a legend ..
So from the four you mentioned I think the first three are those that matters because its deals with prophecy and just legends ..
And as you pointed out dany has connections and fulfilled all three of those prophecies ..
I would like to see your views on my take on this ..
Now i may be wrong here but I don’t think Mel uses the term “The one who was promised ” or jon as been proclaimed like that …she only uses TPTWp I believe ..
“The one who was promised ” is specially introduced in show by kinvara to proclaim dany as such..I think its significant its not jon but dany ( mind you iam not saying he isn’t called TPTwp but I will explain that at the end )
Now I believe that what show is trying to do here is group all three versions of prophecies ( AAR,TPTWP and TSWMTW) into a single entity so that us viewed don’t get confused and hence they come up with a title ” The One who was Promised ”
Its interesting and very happy moment for me because I came up with something new as well long before show came up with this one..
What I came up with was ” The Dragon that was promised” ..
The prophecy must have spoken about one Dragon to fulfill three versions of prophecies at the time of War of dawn and it somehow got mixed up with all the legends as the time went on and we ended up with three different ones rather than single version..
Dragon becomes a AA to red priests becuase of their legends ..
Dragon becomes Khal of kHals ( A Stallion) because of their legends.
And of course Dragon becomes Prince and dragon as seperate identities ..
But as we know both Dragon and Prince are gender neutral and interchangable ..
I believe that a dragon must fulfill three versions of prophecy as transformed into The Dragon must have three heads ..
Now do we have anyone in universe who happens to be a Dragon and fulfills all three prophecies ..
So to me show did have dragon must have three heads but with the term “the one who was promised” ..
Now what of Jon one may ask ..I think he is related to TpTWP but Dany is the three headed dragon as the show tells us TOWWP..
I don’t know how anyone will feel when I say that jon or dany may have been the accidental Horcrox be like the one which it was not intended but have been made any way and without knowledge …instead of Voldomort I will put Rhaegar in our story who made this mistake.
I believe one of them was not expected to be born and have accidentally stumbled upon all these things and grown powerful ..but both can’t exist without another to overcome the long night ( iam not talikng about romance here although it too may happen )
At least now I wish people would stop calling me jon hater and want dany to be center of eveeything ..
talvikorppi,
I don’t remember did we have this conversation inWesteros.org but if you are interested I would be glad to continue there as well..
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/137300-a-dragon-did-wake-from-stone-and-she-has-three-heads-and-her-name-is-daenerys-targaryen/&page=1
Ten Bears,
Forgive me but isnt Sam’ s main reason to go to citadel was to take Gilly and her baby away from the wall and somewhere safe and he had the excuse of becoming a master to replace aemon..
And in the books jon sends Sam away because he wants to save aemon and Mance’s baby from Mel and stannis because he was afraid what they may do them because they had king’s blood ..
And also to have Sam become a maester..
Of course he also wants to know more about the WW and libraries of citadel may more information on them than libraries of Wall ..
But he will also stumble upon many secrets and back stories that have lead to the current state ..mainly things like Citadel’s conspiracy in bringing down Targaryens and their hand in events of summer hall ..
From the books Sam and Aemon in their way to citadel learns about dany and Sam gives the message to Marwyn to help dany learn of the truth ..
And he is now amidst a Sandsnake who disguised herself as a man and novice ..and there is also A faceless man who has joined Sam’s group for some mission which we don’t know yet ..
I think Sam doesn’t need to find a way to weopanize Dragonglass because they are already weaponised when he found them ..people have been using them for centuries north of the wall..only problem seems to be that there is not enough of them and this problem will be overcome once Dragonstone is mined for the dragon glass..
talvikorppi,
One small thing to note ..
its just not show Mel who seems to think AAr and TPTWP as same …Even in books Mel calls Stannis TptWP couple of times ..this happens in A Storm of Swords I believe .
And like I said earlier Kinvara and Aemon does the same and use it interchangeably
dragonbringer,
Love you are really not helping your case at all lol.People already hate Dany quite a lot and think she has everything on a plate and is too overpowered.You making a case for her being the one to fulfill all prophecies and Jon’s birth just being a foil for her is really not going to endear her to more people or making them hate her any less.You are just accentuating their reasons lol.
Flayed Potatoes,
I think you are right on the money. Resurrection, fullfilling prophecy is all low key sort of, as people said could be part of his character. He’s not making big thing out of it. Unlike Dany where we have always grand epic situation going on.
Clearly both of them are linked to it more than others. Show stripped a lot of prophecies and just made it more straightforward and both of them are involved. Jon was born on the show and we saw Dawn forged from a fallen star, blood all around and that’s what they need. Subtle way of telling us. Same as in the books, it’s more subtle not as clear as for Dany.
Good point with Marwyn. Not saying Dany is not part of the prophecy because she clearly is, we had already a red heering with Stannis. There will be some kind of twist. Rhaegar got it wrong, Mel got it wrong, maybe Dany and Moqorro got it wrong. Like George said or even Tyrion in the story prophecies are tricky and can be interpretatd in various ways. Doesn’t mean it’s the right way.
dragonbringer,
It sure as hell looks this way. You’re making basically point in favour of Daenerys (latest Jon’s birth) but then “oh well Jon could be part of it too.” You really wanna tell me you’re for both of them? Both of them are aar/ptwp and let’s not forget about Bran the last hero. Basically the three headed dragon which is not even part of the show as I said show is moving from it except ptwp, stmtw and warrior of light previously. These are key for the war and a lot of people got it wrong the prophecy and many of us fans but very likely Dany is not the only one representing these prophecies as you making her out to be. Too straightforward for George and his style.
Geralt of Rivia,
And how do you think you sound like when you say dany is connected but we have to consider marwyn and gRrm don’t do straightforward..do you think that’s fair and equal..
I only mention speak of dany because she is the one where we know of all points and certainity..and don’t say anything about jon because we don’t have any certain points for him…its like what flayed potatoes or wimsey said in above( I don’t know who exactly ) becauze of the TWOW delay and we not knowing full details of his parentage or his resurrection ..we only have thousands of theories about him..so forgive me for not putting the case for him..
And you guys don’t take into the show version of resurrection as fact ..sure now people tell that its simple and subtle but also like to mention how it downplayed his resurrection..so how can I make a case alone based on show… So have to wait till the books does .
I seem to remember I have spoken against how jon won’t resurrect in the flames like dany did and it will only be a way to get him out of NW and be a personal thing for jon..I think we can find it in the LuKa’s speculation thread ..that time also no one believed and called the same of being biased.. But it ended up happening didn’t it..
Jenny,
I said jon or dany can also be the one that was not intended and accidental ..I also said it may be because right now we can’t tell how both of them realte to the same prophecy ..
And like I said in above comment I cant make a case for jon for now because we don’t know full details ..
Ah a small correction
Iam not making a case for her being to fulfill all prophecies ..
Iam talking about the things that happening in the show and books. .
Dany has fulfilled all three prophecies in both books and show and in universe characters recognize this and proclaim her as such …
I don’t trying to shoehorn her into something she is not related too..its not like we do for jorah,tyrion ,Sandor,Jamie ,HoT pie …
Everyone acknowledges this even her haters and the only defense they seem to come up with this that its too obvious so dany can’t be it ..
What else can we do if the show and books speaks about it ..the other option to keep silence and say everyone will just hate dany so don’t talk about it even if the books and show does but talk about jon fulfilling all of it because everyone loves him..
The only thing I did is integrate all three of them into a single entity ..which I could be wrong but other than that what I said was all taken from books and show ..
You can blame me if it didn’t happen in either medium..
It’s not about making a case for my favorite to be all prophecies talk about but when books and show do that we can’t ignore…and I didn’t even mention the younger Queen like talvikorppi mentioned ( now imagine that )
How can dany get it wrong when she doesn’t even know anything about the prophecies ..
We have had lots of examples for people misinterpreting the prophecy or forcing the prophecy to happen or stop like Cersei,MMD ,Rhaegar and Mel( forced it to happen and had been wrong)..
Compare to that Dany doesn’t know about any prophecy and she doesn’t know what she is doing is something about prophecy …and Moqorro unlike Mel proved his capabilities of reading the fire excellently..and he doesn’t force or had anything to do with that event or influence dany in anyway as well like it will be with jon and Mel( she will resurrect jon snow).. He is simply spreading the word of what he saw and what dany did..
And I said that three prophecies is what three headed dragon actually means ..can’t I be allowed to say that if you can say that dawn is supposed to be bleeding star and camera focused on it because of it ..
I guess people really are too quick to jump into conclusions and start blaming game..
If like I say we replace Voldomort with Rhaegar then don’t you guys think it makes dany the unintended one because rhaegar knowingly took lyanna and its because of prophecy and he dies knowing lyanna is expecting a child then that means he is expecting Jon’s birth ( I guess we can all agree about this )
But what didn’t he expect was birth of dany because of rhaegar’s actions and the war lead dany to be raised in east much like how jon ended up in north ..
I don’t see what’s wrong in what I say or how I try to bring down jon by saying this ..
dragonbringer,
All you’ve wrote is true; however, if the PTWP is supposed to wield a sword, it can’t be Dany, cause she has no such skills. And I hardly doubt whether the sword can be replaced with dragons: dragons will be good at burning the wights which make the bulk of the Night King’s forces, but as for the Night King himself I somehow don’t see Drogon eating him for dinner. Hence, a skilled swordsman (Jon) will be required as much as dragons, not to mention knowledge (Bran) or diversion (Arya). Characters like Jaime, Brienne, Tyrion or Davos may also play rather pivotal roles, so, at the end, I guess, it will be impossible to say who had a bigger input into defeating the Night King. Maybe, except of the one who will manage to bring all this dream-team together. And if that person won’t turn to be the PTWP, then the PTWP may not be that importart after all. Just like a sword: fantazies often have a stress on some magical or at least special weapon, but in GoT Jon is losing Logclaw almost every season just to beat his enemies with hammers and shields. So, maybe the ultimate messege will be that neither the PTWP, nor the Lightbringer will be of much importance in the end game? With all the conversion of traditional tropes, I wouldn’t be surprised with such an outcome.
Inga,
Sure if we take the simple route but I thought one can’t take prophecies too literally ..
Can you say that with certainity that it will not happen ..
Me personally don’t think that something like that will happen ..
There can be lots of ways that it can come to an end ..for example what I think may happen is it may be people are required to destroy the Heart of winter so that they can weaken NK strength and give time for jon to battle NK and take that Dragonglass out of him and returning him as human or he can finish him off for good ..
So in this scenario I see dany taking the role to destroy the heart of winter and riding towards it to destroy and possible leading to deaths of dany and drogon while succeeding in destroying ( dany and drogon destroy the corrupted blue heart that gives the power to undead in HOTU ..blue heart may symbolise heart of winter)
Its funny you say this and then say this ..
So in other words anyone other than jon can’t be important ..if he isn’t important nothing is important unless its him ..
I cautioned yesterday to don’t think about which character gets diminished or is more important…
Like you said all those who characters are important and play the role that author and show runners intend but how that will affect them if say dany is named as tpTwp is what I don’t know ..GRRm has given this characters a role to play and given dany a role to play as well ..
Regarding how dragons can’t be equated to sword ..
Ignoring all the mentions of dragons as swords in the books ..this is what GRRM has to say about it dany’s dragons
He equates them to Aragon’s Sword and they have been had the same importance in the story like it had been ..
Inga,
I agree in part, I do think both Dany and Jon share characteristics of TPTWP but it won’t be as important as people think to the WW vs Human fight. Dany to me will be crowd control with her dragons in the main fight and to get the edge off everyone else and she may also have to pit her dragons against another dragon in the Night King’s possession. Bran I think will play a important part, very important but I think it’s too early to theorise what that is. Knowing now how the Night King became what he is, my theory is more than one person will fight him, he is incredibly old and Much more experienced than all of them so I see a group of the most skilled fighters left alive all teaming up and trying to at least cut open his chest and remove the dragon glass perhaps Jon, Sandor, Brienne, Jamie, not too sure about Jorah yet etc led by Jon all equipped with valyrian steel. That is personally my theory, whether or not who is this part of a prophecy and who is that part of another prophecy to me I don’t think there will be a singular chosen one and many people will have a large role to play but Dany and Jon will be the leaders in the fight.
To all of those who say GRrm doesn’t do obvious and he won’t be that straightforward and how dany’s dragons are not subtle enough and how obvious it is ..
Here is another example where GRRM thinks that he thinks that this event is subtle and not that obvious …
He also said how all those hints about RLJ as subtle and not that obvious ..
So what you think is not subtle enough or obvious can’t be for GRRm
dragonbringer,
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html?tag=westeros-21&ie=UTF8&docId=49161
Indeed, the Dayneites found them very subtle!
One thing that does set SoI&F apart from most “epic” fantasy is that the magic is just another tool that some people have. There are no “quests” to find powerful magical relics or learn powerful spells. The closest we get is Bran: and he’s being drawn to it in the same way that an undercover agent behind enemy lines might draw another agent there to collect the important information. Daeny’s dragons have the same effect as some powerful technology of which there is a very limited supply. Yes, R’hllor provides hints: but his followers botch the meanings more often than fanboys & fangirls misinterpret trailer scenes!
In the end, the most powerful forces are human politics. Everything else becomes a tool for that.
The big thing to keep in mind is: what have the stories been so far? They always come down to key situations where the protagonist (or protagonists) are in situations where all the outcomes have “good” and “bad” qualities: they never are in a place where they can have their cake (keeping food is good!) and eat it, too (eating is good!).
To this end, how is Daeny going to react when she learns that the White Walkers are basically a souped up version of the Unsullied? Daeny does not kill slaves, she frees them. How are Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, etc., going to react when they learn that the Walkers exist to fight a great evil: and that evil is them? We still do not know why the Walkers left and returned: but we can bet that it’s going to be nontrivial. And we can also bet that when the main characters learn about it, then things will become much more complicated for them.
Wimsey,
Have to disagree here wimsey they were made to fight the evil humanity but they turned against that …
Now iam afraid they have turned themselves as Slavers what with whole creating wights as slaves.
I agree heart in the conflict of each character is what story revolves around but I don’t think it will change much when it concerns NK..i think that its very possible That they can be made human again but i think a fight between them is unavoidable ..guess we have to just wait and see who got it right
dragonbringer,
I’m not in the habit of knit-picking prophecies or straining to make either Jon’s or Dany’s foreshadowing fit the other person when it suits me. I already have all of the information I need. Heading into season 7, Dany is conquering cities and preparing to war over a throne. Jon is uniting people to fight the war against the dead. As for heavy-handedness, you don’t get much more heavy-handed than Maester Aemon declaring that Dany is AA halfway through the series while priests and priestesses shout it from the rooftops. Remember that at this point in the books Mel is still convinced that AA is Stannis despite Rholler trying to set her straight. The explicit declarations are pretty much the equivalent of multiple people claiming that Jon’s mother is some woman named Wylla while the true answer was only hinted at. That doesn’t mean that Dany’s ties to the prophecy are meaningless, but it does explain why so many readers aren’t so quick to take the Act 2 billboard signs at face value.
Have you noticed how many of your arguments boil down to “Jon fans irritate me because they don’t share my Dany-centrism?” Think about the circumstances under which you started serial-commenting here. Huffington Post asked Kit Harington what he thinks about Jon being theorized as TPtwP, noting that now that R+L=J has been pretty much confirmed, this is the next big theory about him. A theory that the majority of the fandom subscribes to if all of those internet-wide theory polls (one of which was posted on this site) and flood of articles after his “death” are anything to go by. Readers showed up to, unsurprisingly, discuss the subject of the article, which was the prophecy itself, Kit’s reaction to it, and what Jon’s might be. Until you popped in with the usual blanket statement about Jon fans being naughty for…staying on topic? Worshiping the wrong idol? I had another look at the article, and I still don’t see where Dany was even mentioned in it.
dragonbringer,
Mel,
That’s the problem: if we deviate from the exact wording of the prophesy, almost every protagonist can fit in. And we don’t even know the excact wording of the prophesy – only some bits. And with those bits, interpretations can be endless. Take salt and smoke. Davos, Brienne, Jorah and all three Lannister siblings were born on the sea coast – hense, salt checked. Smoke can be checked as well, because, there are candles and torches and fireplaces all around aand all this fire produces smoke (and mind, that no volcanic activities have been recorded on Dragostone). As for waiking the dragons, the show has omitted that part of the prophesy – at least so far. All we heard was about the sword some warrior should draw from the fire, but again it may mean anything: Dany has no skills with a sword, but I can fully imagine her drawing some sword (Longclaw, Oathkeeper or Widow’s Veil) out from the fire and finishing the Night King, if it comes to that. Davos can be another candidate: he has developed a habit of picking up abandoned swords, etc. One thing I am sure is that the prophesy has not been fulfilled yet: we have several good candidates for the role of the PTWP (the show has never mentioned AA), but some requirements are still to be met and we have 10 to 12 episodes for that.
As for destruction od the WW, I think that the show and books may take rather different paths, mainly because there is no Night King equivalent in the books – the Night’s King is a very different person who plays a very different role. So, in the book destruction of some heart of winter may be required. But in the show the source of all the evil is just a mortal turned immortal. So, I fully agree with Mel that the Night King will have to be turned back into a mortal to be killed. Taking out (or melting) the stone in his chest might be the way, but I wouldn’t take that literarly. My theory is that the twist will involve finding out the Night King’s true human name (the blue-eued giant named Macumber or Mac Umber), which will be done by Bran, and then promising this name to the Many-faced God, which will be done by Arya. Others (primarily, Jon, Jaime and Brienne) will have to carry out the fighting with valyrian steel. And Dany’s dragons might melt the enchanted shard of dragonglass, after it is cut out of the Night King’s chest or something along these lines. But the funiest thing would be, if the Night King ended up killed by Cersei (I can totally imagine her playing some sort of Golum-Smygol at the end), and then we all would have to acknowledge that Mad Queen Cersei was the PTWP all along. 🙂
elybe,
Lol dragonbringer has single handedly turned a Jon post into a Dany one.
elybe,
Lol
When did I do that .. Even in this I never denied Jon’s dream about fighting with flaming sword and compared it with Harry’s dream ..I have always been spoken the two characters as equal ..
Do we know the exact time when someone must shouting ones name or the timing only starts when someone says jon..if that happens in the later half of book 5 ..jon will be proclaimed at start of book6 ..what difference that does make .
And I was saying how nice if his fans also have the same attitude and don’t jump at every scene saying its a prophecy this and that and let the moment arrive itself …which is also on topic I guess ..
Maybe read the comments because I didn’t bring up Dany in the first place until unless I was replying to someones post mentioning about dany ..
Besides if you have a topic about TPTWP and prophecies you are not going to keep dany out of it because fans like you point out who are eager to discuss about it think she is also part of this discussion too ..or is that what you want to keep her out of this and talk about jon only ..
You can find so many mentions of dany even before i made my comments and they state pretty much what happens in the show even if I didn’t tell them to worship dany ..
Yeah I noticed but with only slight correction
I would say that “jon fans gets irritated of me because I don’t share their jon centrism” ..
I noticed everything is fine until everyone just keep praising jon buy the moment someone says anything different to that he gets bashed ..
This is the second thread this is happening ..it happened in the teaser thread and now this thread .
ghost of winterfell,
Yeah seems like i have superpowers..it is not my mistake when people start calling me biased or turning my comments which I never said ..
I would still like to see someone to actually present a comment made by me against jon ..
To turn against “that” would be to side with humans against the Children. Instead, they created their own side. What they seem to have done is similar to the origin of the Daleks on Doctor Who: the definition of “enemy” that they use does not distinguish between their creators and their creators’ enemies.
One possibly important question is: why? Chances are really good that the answer to this is a partial answer to why they have returned. It is not just about enslaving dead people as wights: they took hundreds and even thousands of years off from doing that, but now have resumed. The “why” of that should be extremely important.
Wimsey,
I keep wondering if the return of the White Walkers has something to do with the return of the dragons. I really don’t have any argument for it, but I find it interesting that they seem to have returned at almost the same time that the dragons were reborn.
The first scene in season 1 is with the White Walkers and the very last is the dragons being reborn. My thoughts would probably hold up better if season 1 began with the dragons being reborn while ending with the return of the Walkers, but, eh, whatevah!
Wimsey,
Yeah I would like that answered as well ..there maybe many reasons like
Starks and first men forgetting something like a ritual or tradition they need to remember .
Something similar that Targs may have forgotten or done..
Maybe its because of Citadel and them wanting to remove magic from the world ..
Maybe something to do with Asshai and rhllor
Or Maybe they really sleep for 8000 years and has now woken up ..
Could it simply be that Craster is to blame? After the first war between the Walkers and Men/Children of the Forest, the wall was built to protect men against the Walkers, so that would mean there were still some Walkers remaining, right? I mean what’s the point of building a wall if they were all killed? Perhaps they simply bided their time until they raised an army big enough to take on Planetos…
I dunno. just spitballing here. There’s some holes in this theory…and I don’t read the books or have a ton of knowledge of the ancient histories of Planetos.
and why are the Walkers only interested in Craster’s sons? Why not other people’s sons…..or daughters for that matter?
Mr Derp,
If I may answer this one ..
Crater has first men blood and hence they change them into the WW …it is believed only with those first men blood can change into WW and many believe NK is actually a Stark
And i believe Craster can’t be the reason because he would have only started giving the sons to WW once they have returned and ended up at his housefront..
My cat’s breath smells like cat food.
Mr Derp,
dragonbringer,
IMO, the WW have returned, primarily because dragons had died out. It happened some 150 years ago, and I guess the Night King started to move about that time. But he had to do a lot of things, before he could start attacking. He had to make more WW. We know he was taking Craster’s sons, but there is no guarantee that Craster was their only supplier. He lived rather far south, and the WW had to come into contact with the wildlings who lived much further north first. In general, the wildlings started uniting under Mance Raider some 20 years ago, which means that the WW started making massive problems to them even earlier. And before that there should have been a period of casual encounters, etc. So, I guess the WW have been active beyond the Wall for some 50 years at least.
As for why, my answer is simple: because they are humans – transformed, but humans nonetheless. And they want exactly the same what all the humans and all other living beings want: lebensraum or habitat – the bigger, the better. In other words, they simply want to spread and adapt the environment to their own needs. And it’s not their fault that they feel comfortable at some -50 degrees, which is completely unacceptable to absolute majority of other spieces inhabiting Westeros. So, they have simply waited for favourable precoditions (dragons dead, dragon-hatching Targs out of Westeros, the long night/winter is comming) and now they are making their move to expand their habitat. It’s an instinct and human nature, nothing personal.
Pigeon,
Hi Super Nintendo Chalmers!
Tryin’ to sneak some Ralph Wiggum quotes is always welcome in my book 🙂
Why does it bother you so much when his fans discuss his material in relation to a prophecy that he has been linked to? What are they doing that the article above isn’t?
I’m cool with it, since this is an open forum and all. What I’m less cool with is being chastised for focusing more attention on the topical character than on her.
Are you tracking the number of negative Jon statements that get followed up with rebuttals or something? Just how far does the victim complex go? With the exception of one hater getting dragged, all I saw were people agreeing to disagree.
elybe,
I thought I can share my views on the subject too ..but forgive me for saying to wait till the moment and to let the event happen itself because i feel when the moment comes it won’t be any special since it has been same every week ..if that’s difficult to understand or is a bad thing to say then I will stop doing that ..
Do point me where I said this ..
Again like I said there are enough dany mentions without I wanting to overtake this thread ..
You spoke of me talking about dany being sole saviour and leading …just find the quote where I said this..just find me a quote where I say jon doesn’t have anything to do with the prophecy or he isn’t important ..
Instead of name calling why can’t you just point me where I said those things ..
if anyone who is spoken anything about sole hero or leader it’s you and couple of others
Very deep I guess …I thought I was the sole jon hater or detractor in here so forgive me if I remember who replies to me and who I reply to ..
Wimsey,
I think if Dany finds out the truth, she will be conflicted because not only were they once slaves who rose up against their masters but now are making humans into slaves as well aka wights, basically in becoming what Drogo was once the witch made him a soulless husk and Dany put him out of his misery. She will want to know the full story about why they are going after humans but at the end of the day she has to fight against them no matter how much it hurts her but she’ll feel no satisfaction or joy in doing it, if she survives I don’t doubt the actions she takes will haunt her for the rest of her life.
dragonbringer,
I get what your trying to say but I think people are taking it the wrong way. Sometimes the written word in Social media discussions doesn’t translate right and people take things the wrong way.
I honestly have no idea if the show at least will follow the prophecies as much as people think, I do think both Dany and Jon are chosen ones and they need each other and Westeros needs them both to fight against the WW.
People have their own opinions though and there is a large group of people who don’t believe two protagonists can be on equal footing and both fit the prophecies in the show and book, because in so much other movies and books like say Harry Potter etc there is a single chosen one, other characters are just supporting this one chosen one it’s a very big cliché people aren’t going to drop anytime soon so it’s natural there are too big sides Jon as the one chosen one or Dany as the one chosen one and if you try to say they both are, people who are TeamJon or TeamDany do not like that view at all.
No harm in respecting people’s opinion’s with having that view, we will all see the truth in the final season, which I personally see as GRRM has made thousands of characters, I don’t see one singular person as a chosen one, I think all the POV characters will have massive roles to play otherwise creating all those characters was a little pointless.
In the meantime however there is a forum site that is a big fan of Jon and Dany as equals and doesn’t really favor one over the other if you want to check that out http://housewiththereddoor.freeforums.net
Mel,
I feel myself bad for not spending enough time there with those becuse they are really nice people ..because of the work and health issues I stopped visiting westeros.org and that place ..The only place I visit now is here and that too not often only on my free days..
Looking back at the the thread I had very good conversations with inga ( who said jon alone was TPTWp ) and ten bears( Who was skeptical with both jon and dany) and wimsey ( who thinks there will be a third one like jon and tyrion ) and with you and dornish tyrell and even with jenny and ghost of winterfell..
Its only starts to go ugly with Two or three posters and it has always been these three posters who incidentally says they don’t care about prophecies… You would think these would be the people who would get less upset and ignore one obsessed crazy fan’s ramblings …and the funny thing is they do the same thing which they accuse me of ( something I haven’t done in the first place )…anyone who reads this thread can see this ..maybe I should do the same thing I asked of them and start ignoring them hereafter..
Wimsey,
Maybe it has something to do with Jon’s birth. The secrecy and prophecy tied to it seems to be played up to extent that it could be more than just a parentage/heir issue.
….and Dragonbringer this thread is not about Daenerys. ?
ygritte,
Ah return of another one who I forget about anyways thank you so much for reminding me what this thread is about because
The only time I have gone off topic on this thread is when I spoke about the polls and surprised that western lands is below riverlands( what a surprise its not about Dany right??) ..
If you see my comments you would see I didnt only just speak about dany the very comment you are replying to wimsey was a conversation we had been having ( Again a surprise its not about dany) ..its a thread about prophecies and you can’t keep dany out of it ..as you can see many have brought dany into this thread before and after me I did..
when some one asks whether show is abandoning the prophecy ..you can’t stop but mention the instance of how the show has done the stallion prophecy and tptwp …its not my fault that the character that is associated with it is dany ..if it had been arya or tyrion or bran or sansa i would have done the same to point it out ..if someone says dany hasn’t so far set aside her big goals and done other things ..then you can’t stop but mention a event and ask whether that doesn’t constitute as and example of setting aside goals ..
So please forgive me for not keeping it strictly jon snow..
dragonbringer,
No offense, but when you start your first comment with stuff like: “If only Jon snow fans had such little ego then We wouldn’t be having a new version of prophecy after each and every episode or after every single photo released” and then move on to say how it’s all about Dany and how you can’t wait for Mel to see and proclaim her, it’s no surprise that you are getting these kinds of reactions from users.
Prior to your comment (which was the first one you made in this post and before the one about the poll), most of the comments were about the topic of jon as the ptwp and people like Jenny and myself fangirling/fanboying over Jon as a character in general. It wasn’t until you started derailing the discussion that things escalated, and how can they not when you say we all have egos for…. discussing Jon Snow in a post about Jon Snow. I wasn’t even discussing this trash prophecy until you started attacks by saying that we have egos or that we’re all blind to the story (a story that hasn’t even ended, mind you; so what else to do but speculate about it).
Flayed Potatoes,
Yes I said that ..But
But I didn’t say that ..Do show me where did I say you shouldn’t discuss jon in this thread..
This thread is about a article where kit is being asked about how he feels about fans speculating this theory …he says he with just shrugg it of and that’s why he like jon so much because he has so little ego ..
I took the word from him and continued from there ..
Someone who doesn’t bother with prophecies shouldn’t be disturbed at all because you alone or couple of you guys don’t make up the entire jon fan base ..can you deny what i said doesn’t happen for every week as each new episode airs or can you deny that there thousands of variations exist already..
So I don’t see anything wrong with what I said ..
Again for someone who doesn’t care about thrash prophecies why it was only you who took offense in my comment while no one else did ..
Regarding turning a blind eye ..
I was replying to someone who asked why can’t we triplets or two tptwp ..I said there can’t be three because there is only two members from aerys rhaella line and tyrion’s connections end with his mother dying at childbirth ..and continued to say it can be two but if people keep blind to ONe of Them what can we do ( mind you I have said one of them not only of them can be out of those two ) if you are as you say believe in dany havingconnections to tptwp ..you didn’t need to get upset at all and I have been doing the same work as you guys by saying how it can’t be single one but somehow I gets blamed..
This is what I said in my first comment after that who bit.
Looks like I was asking for the same .,didn’t I..if we know full the points or atleast those points that we have till now so that it would help understand and make a case stronger ..
Please point me where I said this..
I was having a conversation with inga who said jon is tptwp and he will be a Prince consort for dany and how his growing up all been shaped for him becoming tptwp .
And I was replying to him that how I agree with him about jon growing up in north is important but we also look at other side of coin and how dany growing up in the east also important…while jon is learning and gathering info about the threat on the north,dany is creating the weapons and armies that will help him fight the war..
I have also said how he may be reluctant to take up his destiny but he will take it …said how prophecy doesnt matter in both jon and dany’s case because its their choices and decisions that will lead to leadership roles..
I said how his dream mayne very similar to Harry and also said how he can end up happy than he was in that dream..I said one cant exist without another ..I have said multiple times how it may be jon who will fight and remove the dragon glass from NK
Now Is this what you call where I want everything to be about dany alone or where I want things to be all dany centrism ..
There are comments that talked about sole saviour and only one person is leading and fighting others ..and I can tell you its not made by me and it certainly isn’t about dany
Like I said no one had a problem with my comments or anything derailed until you took offense for something you didn’t need to because like said you alone don’t make up the entire fanbase and couple of others followed your suit ..its always you guys that do this ..its that preconceived notion everything I say about must be about dany and jon hating ..you did this even in IRon bank thread..
Seriously iam tired explaining the same thing with you guys for years now..
You guys think that I want it all to be about dany and saying I think jon will be part of it too as just lying and saying it for the sake and doesn’t like the connection there are for him ..
And I think you are doing the same with jon ..
So it’s best to ignore my comments if its so much upsets you ..
Good day to you .cheers..
Ok, I’ll throw my 2 cents in here and then move on because I try to come here to discuss the show, not forum etiquette.
dragonbringer,
If this has been a recurring problem then it might be worthwhile to ask yourself if perhaps they have a point.
From my perspective, I was participating in this discussion (like 3 days ago at this point) and everything was fine until you started saying that I was “missing the point” simply because we did not agree on the level of Daenerys’ sacrifice up to this point in the show. You’ve done that to other posters as well.
To me, that’s the problem. You’re kind of insufferable when it comes to Daenerys. It’s difficult to discuss GoT with you because nearly every conversation inevitably seems to turn into a Daenerys vs. another character debate and if someone doesn’t think Daenerys is superior to other characters you get upset, take things personally, and act like you’re being attacked. I’ve often found that talking to you about anything related to Daenerys is like talking to Annie Wilkes about Misery Chastain.
I don’t really care if anyone shares my viewpoint or not. That’s the way I feel.
Anyway, now that I’ve gotten that off my chest…back to the Hot Pie that was promised.
Mr Derp,
You will find that I was as polite to you as I can be ..
It was never a discussion I started .,the discussion was already happening and just I asked you don’t you think( by giving the points from astopor to yunkai ) this shows that she has set aside her goals…
And I left the discussion immediately you answered my question ..but the discussion continued and when people are talking and asking about yunkai ..you were speaking about meereen ..
So yes I said you may be missing the point the posters trying to make ..but you took offense ( which I didn’t intend at all) by that and said to drop it and I droped it ..
Mind you i still think you missed the points those posters were making..
If you don’t want someone to defend a character when you obviously state something negative or wrongly then you shouldn’t say it in first place ..
Now it feels good to get off my chest too
dragonbringer,
I take offense to you lumping people together and saying they have egos because they believe Jon fits a certain prophecy. How would they have egos? It’s an opinion based on hints dropped in the books and show. Or you saying that people are blind to the story because they don’t consider Daenerys to be the only one who fits the prophecy when this is a Jon centric post. I mean, there has to be a reason why fans (and not only Jon fans btw) think he fits too. And there must be a reason why journalists/news outlets link Jon to this prophecy too. It’s certainly not an ego thing or a fanboy thing… this Huff Po writer seems to just be doing his job. Or what Mr Derp mentioned about you telling him that he’s missing the point because you didn’t agree with something. I don’t think I’m the only one who noticed this, as the post already shows.
Anyway, that’s all I can say for now. The Last Jedi teaser is out and I’m so excited my fingers are trembling all over this keyboard lol.
Super Nintendo Chalmers…..totally cracks me up. ? My brain sometimes goes into Ralph mode when there are too many intensive conversations going on!
Pigeon,
Principal Skinner, I got carsick in your office.
Pigeon,
For me, a bit of levity in these threads is always a welcome addition 🙂
“Dear Miss Hoover, you have Lyme disease. We miss you. Kevin is biting me. Come back soon. Here’s a drawing of a spirokeet. Love Ralph”
The Walkers return some time before the dragons are reborn. The reason why Mance was trying to unite the Wildlings was in response to the Walkers returning: and at the onset of the books/show, that had been happening for a while.
I have seen other people try to tie the Walkers return to the Starks leaving Winterfell: without a Stark in Winterfell, the Walkers return. Except, of course, it’s another year or so later that the Starks abandon Winterfell!
Whatever caused the Walkers to come back, it happened before the story began.
If anything, then the opposite is the case! From what we can piece together, Rhaegar goes out of his way to have another child because of the Prophecy. So, some set of events indicated that “stuff” was going to happen and that “stuff” meant that Rhaegar needed Jon. Now, I have no idea if Rhaegar realized that the Prophecy was referring to figures from northern legends: but he clearly thought that it was urgently important that he have another child because of the impending return of what turns out to be the Walkers.
And that means that some there was some “writing was on the wall” that pointed out that the Walkers were returning. If we knew what it was that Rhaegar read that so convinced him, then we might have a much better idea (or set of ideas) as to why the Walkers are back.
That is good!
Still, my favorite line of the show was from Ralph’s father:
“You’ll be seeing plenty of nuns where you’re going: STRAIGHT TO HELL!!!”
Cersei certainly smiled at that!
Wimsey,
There’s also the “deal” of Craster’s sons. He’s been giving his sons to the Others/WW for years. How long is unknown but he has adult daughter-wives that have been bearing him children for quite a while. The exact reason for increased aggression is also unknown, but all of the activity by Mace and the end of Craster and his sacrifices couldn’t have helped any.
Wimsey,
Ah yes, good old Police Chief Clancy Wiggum. That quote’s fantastic, but I’m partial to:
“In the interest of our public safety, we have confiscated every bagel, donut, cruder, and bearclaw in the city. And some coffee.”
Good point! So, that takes us back to before Robert’s Rebellion.
Ah, yes: another classic! One that almost killed me was:
“Smithers, release the flying monkeys.”
* Wizard of Oz monkeys run to the window, jump out, and plummet to their deaths.*
“Smithers, more work on the flying monkeys.”
Wimsey,
Oh man, just too many good ones to count! I was a complete Simpsons nerd back in the day. Seasons 2-9 featured some of the greatest shows in the history of civilization. Unfortunately, I stopped watching a number of years ago since the quality took quite a nose dive, so now there’s more episodes out there that I haven’t seen vs ones that I have. GoT has long since taken over as my favorite show on tv.
Mr Derp,
Futurama really surpassed the Simpsons early last decade. Sadly, it never got the ratings. However, I think that Groening & Co. were devoting more time & effort to Futurama for a while.
Hey: what if Bender is the Prince that Was Promised? “Valyrian Steel?!? I’m 18% Valyrian Steel! Another thing at which I am awesome: Go Bender, Go Bender….”
Wimsey,
Oh no…not Futurama!! I gave that show a few chances, but I always thought it was like an unfunny version of the Simpsons. I also thought the jokes in Futurama were a bit cliche and over-the-top dorky, but some of it was pretty clever. Hey, everyone’s got their own tastes though, right? I love the Friday the 13th movies even though they’re widely regarded as dumpster fires by most, and rightfully so.
And I thought we already established that Hot Pie was the PTWP?!?!
Speaking of dumpster fire movies, check out Troll 2 sometime. I’ve never enjoyed watching such a terrible movie in my entire life! It’s perfect for those nights when you just wanna watch something so bad that it makes you laugh.
Mr Derp,
Hey, if it were not for guilty pleasures, then I’d no pleasure at all…. 😉
Mr Derp,
Yes, it’s already been established that Hot Pie is TPTWP. That’s why he was so adamant that “[y]ou cannot give up on the gravy!” Its secret ingredients are salt and smoke, i.e. broth cooked slow-cooked for three hours, then on a high flame until smoke rises. Laden onto kidney pie; serve while hot.
(There, GRRM. I saved you the trouble. No need to finish the books now.)
Edit: ladle, not laden.
Ten Bears,
Congratulations: you have just invented Cibus ex Machinus.
Inga,
For what it’s worth, my take on it is that the “prophecies” as worded on the show will have to be explained and fulfilled by what’s revealed on the show; with 82% of the episodes aired, most of the “clues” should be contained somewhere in the sixty episodes. Sure, they can fill in some of the blanks in the thirteen remaining episodes, but the framework should already be in place.
That’s why I’ve been reluctant to “mix and match” disclosures in the show and those in the books, despite the rich detail in the latter: The conclusion on the show will have to make sense in the context of the show, and not leave viewers bewildered (or compelled to cross-reference the books for an explanation – and that’s assuming the books will ever be finished.)
For example, on the show, the “prophecy” requirement that a warrior draw a burning sword from a fire has been fulfilled by Jon Snow snatching a burning Longclaw from a fire. Daeny hasn’t done that. Yes, I know, she brought forth baby dragons from a funeral pyre , but calling them “a burning sword” is kind of a stretch.
So we’ll have to see what happens. Maybe S7 will add a few more pieces to the jigsaw puzzle.
And let’s not forget: there have been a whole bunch of things on the show that aren’t in the books or have yet to be revealed in the books. Those “show-only” facts may tend to point to a particular PTWP/AA candidate.
dragonbringer,
Hey dragonbringer!
Take a look at the covers of the GoT comic books on (yesterday’s?) post. There are a couple with Stannis and Melisandre on Dragonstone.
It DOES look like there’s “salt and smoke” on Dragonstone.
Thought I’d let you know. If the illustrations are “canon”, you may be right and I may be wrong. Take a look….
dragonbringer,
Sam’s professed purpose for going to the Citadel is to learn history, strategy, healing and other things that will help when the WW come. Maybe from a personal standpoint, he’s motivated by a desire to get Gilly and the ageless infant out of Dodge.
Here’s an excerpt of Sam’s conversation with Jon in S5e10, in which they discuss Jon’s experiences at Hardhome and how to defend against the WW, before Sam asks to be sent to the Citadel to train as a maester:
Jon: He raised his hands and they all stood up at once. Tens of thousands of them. The biggest army in the world.
S: So what are you gonna do?
J: I’m gonna hope they don’t learn how to climb the Wall.
S: But the dragonglass…
J: No one’s ever getting that back now. It wouldn’t have mattered anyway. Not unless we had a mountain of it.
S: But you killed a white walker.
J: With Longclaw. I saw them shatter steel axes like they were glass. But Longclaw…
S: …Is Valyrian steel.
J: How many Valyrian steel swords are left in the Seven Kingdoms?
S: Not enough.
J: The first Lord Commander in history to sacrifice the lives of sworn brothers to save the lives of wildlings. How’s it feel to be friends with the most hated man in Castle Black?
S: You were friends with me when I first came here.
J: And I wasn’t winning any elections back then. Here’s to us, then. Long may they sneer…What?
S: I wanted to ask you something. To ask something of you. Send me, Gilly, and the baby to Oldtown so I can become a maester. That’s what I’m meant to be. Not this.
J: I need you here, Sam. If you leave, who’s left to give me advice I trust?
S: Well, there’s Edd…I’d be more use to you as a maester. More use to everyone now that Maester Aemon is gone. The Citadel has the world’s greatest library. I’ll learn about history, strategy, healing. And other things, things that will help when– when they come. If Gilly stays here, then she’ll die. And the baby that she named after me will die. And I’ll end up dying, too, trying to protect them. Which means that the last thing that I’ll see in this world will be the look in her eyes when I fail them. And I’d rather see a thousand white walkers than see that.
———————–
PS. Of course I didn’t miss Jon
mentioning that the inability to retrieve the bag of Dragonglass left behind at Hardhome didn’t matter anyway:
“Not unless we had a mountain of it.”
Gee… I wonder where there might be a mountain of Dragonglass???
This reminds me of something else that comes up from time-to-time: how did Craster know to leave his sons?
Wimsey,
I just fell down a wiki hole trying to find an answer but came up with nothing. My best guess would be that since he grew up a wildling he was more knowledgeable in white walker lore than those south of the wall.
Ten Bears,
Ah but there is a bit about doing it under the bleeding star..Did Mel leave that out part in the show ..
From what we know of how the flaming sword’s supposed properties dragons won’t feel like a stretch ..
It is a sword that is said to make heat on its own
It is said to be warm as nissa nissa has been to Azor ahai..
But I guess show left out these too
Ah its very impossible to talk without making a book reference..
I will have to spend sometime on show only contents and compile them like I did with the books maybe after season 7 ..
But that’s the point right. Its like as you say we are six seasons in .82% show has completed and only left thirteen episodes to go .
The framework should already been put in the place right ..
What we have is two people proclaimed as one both having literal and metaphorical rebirths..
If we are supposed to be having only one or particular candidate in this ..if that’s their intention why set it up in two characters..
I mean jon was perfectly poised in the show ..Stannis a red herring dies and here he gets resurrected from the dead and called he must be tptwp …all would have been fine if the show did only that but they go on to call dany as tptwp as well..
What would be the reason of doing this If it was supposed to be only one because I don’t see either of them fighting for who is tptwp like we the fans do but fight the enemy ..
I haven’t seen it yet.. Will love to look it up thank you
Dont know i mentioned this earlier but Those images that I linked where canon and GRRm approved ..will have to see this is book also GRRM approved .
Mr Derp,
I admit that I too ended up enjoying Futurama more than The Simpsons and always enjoy watching episodes again from time to time. I’ve gotten to the point now that I rarely watch new Simpsons episodes, and when I do I’m not very entertained. I enjoy the sci-fi space and futuristic genre a lot, so Futurama touched on it enough for me to really like it I guess. “Jurassic Bark” was a brilliant episode just to name one. One of the best things I liked about the show was the variety of the stories they did. I understand viewers enjoy different things but I still don’t understand how Bob’s Burgers can continue to earn seasons on Fox while they crapped all over Futurama even while they aired it. *shrug*
Ten Bears,
Thanks for the excerpt..
Of course I did say he also wants to make use of old town’s library because it may have many books and information that library at the wall doesn’t ..
All that he says like history strategy and healing will be part of him becoming a maester…iam sure he will be stumbling upon lots of histories and back stories..iam very much interested in seeing how many makes into the show..I would be glad the whole secret behind what exactly happened in summerhall and with dragons dying and mysterious targ’s illness or deaths..
Or I have to hope Grrm answer it in TWoW.
You asked in one of the above comments
The Targeryens were always been looking for the coming of such Prince and Dragons ..
I believe they read it from the book but also have gotten from daenys the dreamer ( who foretold them about the destruction of valyria which made Targs move out of valyria)
Now in the books there is a character called “A ghost of high heart ” who Arya and Brotherhood without banners meet …she has many prophetic visions and while she saw Arya she said something similar to what Mel said in the show
She also saw about Stannis killing renly and Balon Greyjoy killed by a faceless man on the swaying bridge and red wedding and resurrection of cat as Lady stoneheart
And this of course talks about Red wedding and purple wedding where we saw deaths of Robb and Joffery..
The savage giant that will slayed is widely believed to be LF at winter fell .
So I think we can say ghost of hight heart is credible enough to trust ..
Barristan tells dany that Its she (ghost of high heart ) who said that Tptwp will come from Aerys and Rhaella line to king Jaehaerys ( grandfather of dany ) and hence the king made the marriage of aerys and rhaella..
…And in the show Jaehaerys doesn’t even exist ..the show skipped him and made Aerys son of Aegon (Aemon’s brother) .make of that what you will
Given that the Walkers supposedly have been absent for millenia, the Wildlings really should not know anything about them, either. They know nothing about obsidian killing them or anything like that, for example. Moreover, if Craster “remembered” some old story about buying off the Walkers with sons, then why don’t the other Wildlings remember this? There would have been a big divide among the Wildlings: some would have been willing to buy off the Walkers with some sons, or at least have tried to do so. If some had tried this but been destroyed anyway, then it should have come up when Mance was reminding people about why they needed to unite. However, never are we told that the Wildlings knew anything about this “sons for freedom” tactic: and GRRM and/or B&W should have told us that by now!
One of the reasons why this used to be discussed was that Craster knowing that the Walkers wanted his sons implies that the Walkers can somehow communicate with people. Long ago, some fans held the idea that Littlefinger was an agent of the White Walkers: and the fact that Craster seems to have learned from them that they wanted a few good young men (like: all of them) was used as evidence that it was at least feasible for them to have agents.
At this point, however, we’ve gotten nothing else showing that this might be true. (I was a “LF is a provocateur for the Others,” but I long-ago gave up on that idea!) So, the Walkers have come back some time ~30- 40 years ago and started taking Craster’s sons: how and why? Did Craster somehow stumble upon the Night King and free him? That seems sort of arbitrary.
Still, “why are they back?” probably is key to “what can Jon & Daeny do to make them go away again?” As such, I expect that we will learn something about all of this.
I don’t know… I suppose we can theorize (make stuff up in our head). We could assume the Others came the first time for the very purpose of acquiring male babies for their race. Perhaps they killed all the boys and men in the family at the time but spared the females, the craven Craster, and took the male babies currently in his family. Maybe they were able to communicate what their demands were, or they were eventually understood when they repeatedly came back every time a male baby was born.
That scenario made me start to wonder if Sam and Gilly would have been harmed had they simply given baby Sam to the Other, but then I remembered that the situation of the scene was show created. They blended the book encounters when Sam kills the Other while he was with Grenn and Small Paul with the one when he, Gilly and baby Sam are saved by Coldhands while trying to escape a bunch of wights. Still, I have to wonder if show-Walker would have just taken the baby and left. It didn’t seem to be very intent on killing them if they acquiesced, unlike how they were at Hardhome.
Jay Targ,
This is what we have from show since the discussion happened with a show watcher who didn’t read the books
So when someone says the following
How can we agree to something if it goes against the text ..
heh, that is very much NOT what “theorize” means! What we should do is try to explain what the stuff that GRRM and B&W have shared from inside their heads! Our “theories” (really, hypotheses) should be a parsimonious yet powerful explanation.
As the Great Detective put it: “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data.” So, what are the data?
1. Craster knows to leave out sons;
2. The Walkers know when sons are born;
3. There is no report of this happening with other Wildlings despite dozens of opportunities where it should have come up.
4. We have no other plausible examples of the Walkers communicating desires or demands from humans.
We do have one real aspect of theory to consider, too. GRRM adheres to the theory that stories should reflect internal conflict. Given this, whatever the motives are for the Walkers (which should include explanations for the above) should be something that leave Jon and Daeny (and probably Tyrion, Bran & Arya) in quandaries: they will be betraying some core value no matter what they do.
I do not have any simple ideas to explain this. The available data do hint that the Walkers do want something. However, that also clearly is not the primary goal: otherwise, they would have been stealing baby boys from the Wildlings. Craster knows what they want in this one case: but nobody else has any clue what they want. I have this nagging suspicion that this is going to be important.
Wimsey,
I believe its one of those questions we will never get answered..
In addition to Craster giving his sons ,we have Gared ( the guy who escapes WW and warns Ned in the first episode ,the one who Ned beheads )
Why do WW have to kill his companions but let him get away when they had him cornered ..
I believe in the books Gared was hiding so WW couldn’t have known his presence and its only in the show that WW and gated comes face to face ..
But you get my point there are questions like how did Mormonts ended up with a Valyrian sword when they are one of the poorest houses ..
llyrio rich may he be and had more profits from Drogo but why does he have to give dany specifically three dragon eggs ..
We may never know answer to this questions
Sometimes they just wanted somethings to happen ..didn’t D&D say something similar to this which became a meme when tyrion met dany first time..
Wimsey,
Well, I didn’t really want to dig into it and attempt to come up with very plausible theories with very little actual information on the topic. For the comment I just wanted to make stuff up that could have happened. We may not get an answer to the question on the show of HOW Craster knew to give the babies in offering. Hell, we may not even get it in the books. If we’re lucky we’ll find out WHY specifically they need/want to take male babies. We may end having to simply use our imagination, the scenario made up in our own mind. 🙂
Flayed Potatoes,
This was my initial response to him when he said dany had ulterior motives when she freed slaves because she wanted an army to take IT ..
So much for wanting dany to be above everyone else but seems like i keep putting her with other characters even with edmure and doran ..
But as you can see I had no intention of continuing the debate ..but the conversation continued and others disagreed with him as well..
Jay targ in particular asked
If gaining army was her intention what did she gain from yunkai and meereen..to this Mr.Deep replied ..
Again he uses the argument that she did that because she thought leaving meereen would have not helped her gain IT..And how that’s his point ..
To which I replied he missed the point ( maybe I should have said you missed the point jay targ was making )
Because he was asking what made her go to yunkai and meereen in the first place which doesn’t provide anything for dany in order to achieve the IT..
Not what made her to stay in meereen..
I don’t see what’s wrong with what I said ..
dragonbringer,
I agree, Personally I’ve always seen Dany as a character struggled with her own free will her entire life. From the books and the show you see less in the show obviously from her brother taking away her free will her entire life and Dany becoming numb to everything then Drogo even though she learnt to love him, a part of her always resented him for owning her no matter how much people want to romanticize that relationship. So to me she freed slaves because she saw herself in them, nobody saved her but she could save them. She could do for them what no one could do for her. To me it’s pretty damn obvious why she freed them and it wasn’t to get the Iron Throne, it was personal to her. It was her duty to her because she may not have been in as bad as a situation as them but she empathized with them very deeply. Let’s be honest if anyone has watched the show they know the only former slaves she put on that ship were the Unsullied the first ones she freed, all the ones after are still in Essos making their own lives. Also no one in Westeros cares that she freed slaves, it doesn’t effect them in the slightest, why would it, they’ve never experienced slavery themselves.
Perhaps I’m biased as I’ve watched many TV Series and Movies that revolve around slavery aka Spartacus, The Underground, 12 Years A Slave, Belle, I Am A Slave, Free State Of Jones etc
It’s always incredibly moving, you see the true strength of whay the slaves feel and experience but also sickening how people treat other human beings, and the ones who aren’t slaves and yet stand up for them are heroes in my eyes.
That’s why I’ll ways be on the side of the slaves and the people who did something about it.
Wimsey,
It is a interesting concept especially considering we’ve never known or seen the White Walker’s communicate with humans. We don’t know if they simply choose not to or are incapable of it. So how Craster found out about it is a mystery, did he just attempt it one day, did his ancestor’s make the deal and he simply followed their example, was their once a written or verbal agreement with the WW promising his family’s safety? It’s a big mystery, why he does it and how he knows it would even work.
Wimsey,
Oh My God, I absolutely loved futurama, it was my favorite. I just felt it had so much more life to it than The Simpson’s, Family Guy, American Dad
etc with the exception of usually the Simpson’s that are filled with the main characters all being jerks. It wasn’t simply about a family that was basically a alternate universe each episode with next to no continuation. It actually felt like it was a proper storyline,with friendships being built up, experiences together, people falling in love (Fry and Leela 😉 especially) Zap Brannigan and the way he said Champagne. Aww I loved it so much if you can tell lol
dragonbringer,
You should ignore people who basically argue for the sake of arguing and start being insulting if you don’t see things their way, it’s a lot healthier for your sake of mind in the long run.
However people who have different opinions but stay polite and you can have a healthy debate with, they are the people who are better to respond to and have discussions with I find.
dragonbringer,
You replied:
“Ah its very impossible to talk without making a book reference.. I will have to spend sometime on show only contents and compile them like I did with the books maybe after season 7 …”
———————-
Exactly. That’s the problem: Mixing and matching elements from books and show leads to utter confusion. Even a slight variation in the wording of “prophecies”, or visual images in the show vs. descriptions in the books, can change the “odds” of a particular candidate fulfilling the prophecy.
Moreover, when I re-read a transcription of Mel’s Show!Prophecy, I get the impression that drawing the burning sword and bleeding stars events may not have occurred yet, though they will happen very soon, i.e. when the seas start to freeze over.
And that’s when “the stars will bleed.” Not when somebody was being born or reborn years ago.
To me, when a “[red?] star bleeds” from the books version could describe the comet in the show (but interpreted in different ways by different characters).
However, “when the stars bleed” seems to describe meteor showers, not a singular comet.
(Several years ago, when I spent a few months away from city lights and smog, I saw meteor showers several times a night for weeks on end. It looked like whole constellations were raining from the sky.)
I think, for the sake of clarity, I’m going to refer to the prophecied hero on the show as “The Warrior of Light”, as distinguished from “Azor Ahai” in the books.
PS An interview GRRM gave in early 1991 about adapting his books included a comment that might be of interest in identifying likely “candidates.”
I’m going to try to find it, and cover it with spoiler coding. (Not really a “spoiler” though…)
As modern aristocracies show, formerly rich houses often wind up poor houses later in history. Moreover, this is not going to be relevant to the plot or story: but the “why” of the Walkers almost must be important to both.
Perhaps not. However, at some point in this sort of story, we should get a key moment or set of moments where the chief protagonists (Jon & Daeny, and perhaps Tyrion, Bran & Arya) all are going to think/feel: It would be wrong to just destroy the White Walkers while at the same time thinking/feeling It would be wrong to not stop the White Walkers. This could wind up being unrelated to the goings-on with Craster: but if GRRM (and, by extension, B&W) have set it up well, the big “answer” will wind up explaining all of it. That is a big reason I am advocating parsimony here: if there is a model that explains a bunch of individual details, then we should lean towards that because chances are good that when GRRM wrote it (and when B&W filmed it) it was with this model in mind.
Cham-Pahg-Nuh! We still call it that in my household.
Wimsey,
Anton Chekhov.’s Gun and William of Occam’s Law of Parsimony…
I’m learning more here about dramatic techniques than I did in a course I took in college taught by an English professor/head of the drama department who was supposed to be an expert on Chekhov and Shakespeare.
Mel,
Thank you for your kind words ..I will definitely try to follow what you are saying
Ten Bears,
lol… I sincerely hope not! Your prof would have known much more about Chekhov’s literary and theatrical criticisms than I could hope to do! My understanding is that modern “review” really stems from what Chekhov did, and I think that my readings never extended past his Gurlyeland letter compilation.
Occam’s Razor is more of a science thing: but in a way, Chekhov’s famous gun is just the literary/theatrical analog to Occam’s Razor: Keep it simple, stupid! 😀
I have always felt that the comet/bleeding star was causing something. It appeared in book and show, and was noticed and remarked about a number of times. Did it exert some force, such as reversing the magnetic field around Planetos, that awoke the WWs?
Did the star rather than the dragons impact magic so that magic became more effective? Now wildfire is more easily manufactured, now some dead are recalled to life by Qyburn science and red religion magic, now bestoned dragons are born.
Does the bleeding star relate to the salt and smoke prophecy? Or is the bleeding star just a red herring.
I always thought Craster had a talk with the WWs, as if they were the mob extorting a shop owner. It would be valuable to know how to communicate with the WWs, but Craster is dead. Maybe one of his wives?
Inga,
She can not freaking burn men.. that has to mean something..
The Walkers had been back for many, many years at that point. Moreover, it is much too arbitrary. Why the Walkers came back has to be something that will make the main characters take pause and wonder if they can somehow rectify.
It was part of the prophecy. It certainly is not any sort of red herring: it’s not a potential plot element of any sort.
That, too, seems a bit arbitrary. If anyone is going to do it, then I would expect it to be Bran.
Wow this a great article and for some reason I didn’t get the usual email to say this had been published and then when I found it (same time as pictures were released) I didn’t have time to read through the 300+ comments.
My take for what it’s worth is Jon is very obviously The Prince That Was Promised, I thought that both reading the books and watching the show all the way through. Yes it’s not obvious but when you add up all the clues it’s there and in plain sight, Dany is just a clear distraction (but she too could be made to fill that role – somehow it’s way too obvious).
I suspect in the end Dany will die, either fighting the white walkers or clashing with Jon. She’s been built up as this great saviour who has signs of madness, who whole life she’s chased what she believed to be hers by right, once she realises Jon has a better claim for the thrown things are not going to sit well with her.
As for the three heads of the dragon, I had always thought this was Jon, Dany and Bran – as in three dragon riders in the final battle however if you have read the spoilers the three dragon riders have essentially been revealed and will be made clear in S7.
I think Maester Aemon is right. TPTWP is Danaerys.
Very, very true about Jack Gleeson’s acting. I love how GRRM and HBO have played with theatre as propaganda. Los scenes in the Braavosi performances (and backstage, too) are some of my favourites up til now.
Wimsey,
My takeaway from both of these principles is that the simplest explanation with the least number of assumptions is probably the correct one.
As a corollary to this general (oversimplified) statement, the correct explanation will encompass most if not all established facts, while explanations that would require discarding or ignoring established facts, or “waiting” for additional facts, are more likely to be wrong.
Which leads me to the “negative” Chekhov’s Gun ( or the conspicuously unloaded gun): When a juncture in a story is reached when a gun would and should be hung, but isn’t, doesn’t that mean there never was a gun to begin with? Is it logical to assume the negative ?
I can give a few examples if you happen to read this …. For now, a simple example (from book readers’ reactions, so I don’t know the exact details) was that the scenes of The Hound with BwB in S6e8 seemed to confirm to readers that LSH would not be appearing in the show. I’m surmising that there was something about those scenes that made them the appropriate time and setting to set up or Introduce LSH; that the scenes came and went appeared to confirm LSH would not be in the show. (If this sounds garbled, I’ll give a better illustration.)