In the season eight trailer, as we sense the growing tension of the living bracing to defend Winterfell against the undead, it’s no coincidence the last face we see is that of Jorah Mormont—played by the expressive (and handsome, if I say so myself) Iain Glen. We know very little about how Ser Jorah’s journey will end in this final season, but the Scottish actor has been gracious to share his experience of reading and filming it.
Speaking to The Telegraph, Glen says that reading the scripts he felt that showrunners Benioff and Weiss had “done it, they’ve pulled it off,” particularly regarding “that balance of satiating people’s desire for things to be complete, but leaving enough questions in the air for people to try to project forward what world will follow, individually for all the characters and universally for the world that Thrones has occupied.”
Later came the table read, which as have heard many times from producers and cast members alike, was a tearful affair: “There’s a real sense of loss, it’s like a family… there were lots of tears because it was coming to an end, but real excitement and joy that we were going to shoot it… We’ve all grown very close to each other.’
The act of shooting it, however, was not quite as exciting or joyous, especially that Battle of Winterfell we’ve heard so much about. Corroborating what many others involved in the episode have said, those 55 nights in the cold and mud (and “sheep shit”) of Moneyglass Estate were “a real test, really miserable.” Thankfully, if what we’ve heard about that battle is in any way close to reality, all the pain will have been worth it!
Glen isn’t only leaving the show behind, but also Emilia Clarke, his constant scene partner for eight years. But he isn’t worried: “We’re friends ad we’ll always be friends.”
“Emilia went through an extraordinary story arc for herself as a person, and her character,” Glen says of the Mother of Dragons. “I saw her as a nervous young actress, who had just got this big gig and everyone was saying, ‘Is this the right actor? Is this how she should look? Does the wig look right?’ It’s an incredible amount of pressure and I saw this young girl cope with it incredibly well.”
“She did ask for guidance,” he reveals, “and invariably I was saying, ‘Just keep doing what you’re doing.’ Emilia’s very gifted, she really has no idea how good she is – she remains very vulnerable but it’s not a destructive vulnerability, it keeps her very focused… She’s a very altruistic, warm person, who was the great generator of social life during Thrones. I’ll always keep an eye on what she’s doing and take pride in it.”
On Glen’s last day, showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss presented him with a storyboard (just like with everyone else,) which depicted Jorah’s fight at Daznak’s Pit in season five. By the time they ended their speech, Glen says he was “in floods of tears.”
“We’re friends ad we’ll always be friends.” – Ser Friendzone
It’s going to be so interesting finding out what storyboards each individual crew member got. It is nice to know that Jorah’s was one that’s happened already. And I’d concur. It was an amazing scene.
“….that balance of satiating people’s desire for things to be complete, but leaving enough questions in the air for people to try to project forward what world will follow, individually for all the characters and universally for the world that Thrones has occupied.”
_________
I knew it. Unresolved story lines and unsolved mysteries.
Final scene will be Jon, Dany, Arya and Sansa at a table at the Crossroads Inn, with a Journey song playing in the background; Hot Pie comes over to serve them platters of onion rings, accepts their compliments on his cooking, and invites himself to sit with them and detail his recipe.
Abrupt fade to black. The End.
Ten Bears,
LOL! That’s a lot better than mine: I fantasized cut to present day, with D.B. Weiss, David Benioff, and GRRM, sitting in a circle, in GRRM’s home office, and Benioff says, ” Well. So that’s it then??” and GRRM says, “Yes. For now….”
That photo with the toy dragon is a scream!
I love when shows have a present day ending or at least a little hint of one. Like Merlin showed old Merlin walking a street with cars going by. Or even in the recent Dracula movie a few years ago we see him present day along with Charles dance
::pricks up her ears:: Iain has two older brothers? Just about the right age for me? Are they single?
I don’t see anyway Jorah survives. Definitely one of my favs, but I think he has to go.
19 days!
8 days until the red carpet!
#ForTheThrone
His character is wonderful on the show and he and Emilia have such good chemistry together. I hope they end his story-line well in the show – I know in the books he’s different but he’s definitely one of my favorites on the show. Such a good actor and obviously a good friend to Emilia, total class all the way.
Awww, that’s really nice. I take back what I said about sunscreen. But lets not get carried away…don’t leave home without it, folks!
No Soprano’s ending. Definitely no Lost ending. Preferably no Return of the King multiple endings.
Nikolaj said Jaime’s last scene was in a beautiful place, right? Maybe he ends up ruling in Dorne? Someone has to. Bronn can go with him.
Jon/Aegon could make Gendry a real Baratheon and he (with Davos’ help) can take over from Cersei in KL. Tyrion can have Casterly Rock. Sam can take his father’s place as Lord Tarly and marry Gilly, since once the NK and WW are gone there will be no need for the Night’s Watch.
But Jon, Dany, Arya, Sansa, and Bran? Dany, if she and Jon don’t work out, can go back to Essos with what is left of her Dothraki and Unsullied. Sansa deserves to rule something, but will it be the north or will she go south? Arya could become a knight and someone’s Captain of the Guard. Brienne? A knight and/or wife to Jaime if he ends up defying the odds.
Cersei, The Mountain, and Qyburn all need to die. The first two for the horrible things they have done and the last for the horrible thing he is. Melisandre will also die, and perhaps Varys as well.
Sadly, Jorah, Pod, Grey Worm, Missandei, Beric, Tormund, and Edd are likely collateral damage. Lady Mormont, Alys Karstark, and Ned Umber are also on the chopping block, although killing Lyanna seems unlikely and, if Dany leaves Westeros, I can see Alys and Jon hooking up. Ned is an unlucky name on the show, however.
Oh–Hot Pie makes it, as do Ghost and Nymeria. The dragons….
IOW, I have no effing clue what’s behind that light on the train tracks. Maybe I’ll love what will happen and maybe I won’t, but it sounds like it will be epic. I stand with epic.
The horrible thing Qyburn is?
Qyburn doesn’t seem evil in the show (I know he is in the books but that’s different).
He’s loyal to Cersei so that he can pursue his science (which he thinks is for the greater good).
He hasn’t actually done anything evil that I can remember. Everyone he has caused harm to was an enemy of Cersei (which is his job as Hand of the Queen). He even seems to have a soft spot for the little birds (giving them sweets and free medical treatment, killing off an abusive father).
Also he seems to be looking very concerned at Cersei in the season 8 trailer. Maybe she is smiling about Winterfell getting attacked but Qyburn is concerned because he knows that the white walkers are a threat to Westeros. It will be interesting to see what he does.
Final scene. Everything is in shambles; KL, Winterfell, the whole Westeros. Surviving characters are looking the destruction.
Tyrion: I won´t envy the poor soul tasked with dealing with this shit. Right guys?
Nobody asnwers Tyrion turns and finds himself alone.
Tyrion: Me and my big mouth.
‘Don’t stop believing’ intro🤣 I love that scenario!
I really like Sir Jorah and Iain Glen and whatever way his arc ends, I will be very emotional! The closer we get to the premiere, the more mixed feelings I’m having, realizing it’s the last season ever – I can’t even imagine how all the actors and crew feel like!
KHALEESIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Firannion, Gahdamn! Ser Jorah already old as dirt, so how old must you be?
Jack Bauer 24,
“He has to go” that’s so cold lol. I think he’ll sacrifice himself for Dany… but I do hope he survives.
Undead Elephant,
“They found some of my experiments too bold.”
They never really got into too much detail on the show regarding why the maesters at the Citadel stripped Qyburn’s chain away, but it’s believed that he performed vivisection, which is a fancy way of saying that he performed experiments on live people to enhance his knowledge of medical science. In other words, he killed people/animals just for the purpose of medical experimentation.
In spite of Qyburn’s soft and calm exterior, he is potentially a very dangerous man because of his secretive, ruthless, and unethical methods. He’s clearly a very smart man, but he has no ethics or morals whatsoever.
He’s loyal to Cersei because she’s the only person with authority that will actually let him conduct his unethical, immoral experiments.
SiriuslyStarkTarg,
Ten Bears,
Hot Pie: “How would you like your pie?”
Jon: “Any Way You Want It.”
*cue Journey*
EW just posted a new interview with Maisie https://twitter.com/JamesHibberd/status/1110220809644269568
Qyburn had little children stab Maester Pycelle to death, gave Cersei the means to blow up the Sept of Baelor (killing gods know how many innocents), and operated on the dead or dying Gregor Clegane which resulted in him becoming a zombie.
I’m pretty sure he falls on the evil end of the spectrum.
Jack Bauer 24,
It was an Interesting article with Maisie. It’s actually a bit spoilery for Maisie. Maybe since it’s getting close she is letting out a little more. She doesn’t give away what happens but she does talk about some of her character motivations and some about how she acts with Jon and Sansa.
I just finished my every 5 day episode rewatch yesterday. I miscalculated a week or so because i was supposed to watch the season 7 finale on April 1. But close enough. Now I will go back and watch my favorite episodes until the 14th.
“that balance of satiating people’s desire for things to be complete, but leaving enough questions in the air for people to try to project forward what world will follow . . .”
All roads lead to no Iron Throne by the end of the series. I feel very sure of this and I give anyone permission to call me Joffrey’s fool if it doesn’t.
Also, HBO just released another video “A Story in Camera Work” :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2ZJ3lTaREY
I love how the official reference to Battle of the Bastards is Bob. As if that scene were just one of your friendly neighbours.
Dark Sister,
That was a cool video. They talk about Sapochnik coming up with the scene in BOTB that wasn’t in the script that ended up being a great scene to shoot. It made me wonder what scenes Sapochnik may have come up (that weren’t scripted) with in his two episodes this year. And it was fun seeing how much Maisie Williams likes to learn about behind the scenes. If you don’t blink, you may see Maisie sitting behind the camera looking through the lens. I’ve heard in other interviews how interested she is in behind the camera stuff. It won’t surprise me if she directs one day.
Older than dirt, obviously: 65, and men my age are all looking at women 20 or 30 years younger.
Should I just go quietly and throw myself in a junkyard, now that I’m obsolete, d’ya think? Instead of geeking out over some of the same things as younger fans? How unseemly of me…
“I wanted Arya to go full circle and try for some kind of normalcy like when she was younger.” Ooo, I like that. I really hope that her character arc allows her to transcend her assassin specialty. Just getting adept at revenge and staying that way is not a satisfying ending for her. I for one hope she voluntarily gives up her list and stops feeling driven to check Cersei off it. Let that be somebody else’s gig.
Why not? There are myriad compelling story/character threads woven into this big complex tapestry. I’d like the final episode to offer up a series of separate vignettes depicting narratively satisfying fates for all the surviving major characters, and a fair few of the supporting ones as well.
My money is still on the final scene being either 1) Maisie waving from shipboard as she sails off to find out what’s west of Westeros or 2) Sam presenting Tyrion with a beautifully illuminated copy of his new history of the War for the Dawn, in Tyrion’s garden, over a couple of flagons of Imp’s Delight. Bonus points if he divulges the punchline of the jackass-and-honeycomb joke. (Though if it fades to black just before he finishes it, that might be the Sopranos-style ending.)
LordVarysParts,
Iain is hardly “old as dirt.” He’s only in his late 50s for goodness sakes (and still looking good). I would reserve that label for Grand Maester Pycelle. He’s old as dirt.
Yes but as Qyburn explains when he first meets Jaime, he believes that these experiments are necessary as they will save thousands of lives in the long run. He’s a grey character in that regard. He’s similar to Melisandre, she truly believes that everything she does, no matter how immoral, will help save Westeros from the white walkers. They are not evil characters. They do evil things for what they perceive to be the ultimate good.
Thanks Jack!
Doing horrible things to other people in the name of what they “perceive to be the greater good” is the excuse of every tyrant in history, so that’s kind of a non starter.
Would you be as accepting of Mel’s and Qyburn’s actions if you or someone you cared about were the one(s) who was being sacrificed? It’s always easier to digest these things when it’s not you that it’s happening to.
That’s all well and good when you’re not the unfortunate human being that gets burned alive at the stake for other people’s claims of acting for the “greater good”.
Mr Derp,
““They found some of my experiments too bold.”
They never really got into too much detail on the show regarding why the maesters at the Citadel stripped Qyburn’s chain away, but it’s believed that he performed vivisection, which is a fancy way of saying that he performed experiments on live people to enhance his knowledge of medical science. In other words, he killed people/animals just for the purpose of medical experimentation.””
____
Actually, I think the show did get into the details.
Because S3e7, “The Bear and the Maiden Fair,” is one of my favorite episodes, I remembered Qyburn explaining to Jaime why he was stripped of his Maester’s chain:
Jaime: “So why did the Citadel take your chain? Did you fondle one boy too many.”
Qyburn: “No, my lord. That’s not my weakness.”
Jaime: “What is?”
Qyburn: “Curiosity. The only way to treat disease is to understand disease. And the only way to understand it is to study the afflicted.”
Jaime: “You performed experiments on living men.”
Qyburn: “On dying men.”
Jaime: “With their permission?”
Qyburn: “My studies have given me insight that has saved many lives.”
Jaime: “Dying paupers, I assume. Men with no families to complain. You found them moaning in the poorhouse and had them carted back to your garret and opened up their bellies to see what was inside.”
Qyburn: “How many men have you killed, my lord?”
Jaime: “I don’t know. Countless. ‘Countless’ has a nice ring to it.”
Qyburn: “And how many lives have you saved?”
Jaime: “Half a million. The population of King’s Landing,”
***
I’m not defending their actions. I’m simply saying that they are in the grey character category along with characters like Jaime and Sandor rather than the flat out evil category with Cersei, Gregor, Joffrey, Ramsay etc.
And of course I would feel differently if I was the victim. I wouldn’t be looking at it objectively. If I was the wildling deserter from the pilot, Ned Stark would be evil.
Arya running in trailer.
Undead Elephant,
Ned Stark beheading the deserter in episode 1 is a completely different set of circumstances than what Qyburn is doing. They’re not really even comparable.
Ned Stark was following the law of the land. It doesn’t matter that Gared was scared. he still abandoned his post and the NW, which is punishable by death. Obviously, it would’ve been better had Ned listened to him, but it’s kind of hard to fault Ned here without Gared providing some bit of proof. Even if he did, he still deserted the NW, which has to be punished accordingly, lest they want to see an increase in desertion. Gared could’ve went back to CB and informed them of what he saw instead of running away.
Qyburn’s situation is nothing at all like Ned’s. I understand there’s a grey area with Qyburn, but I’m not so sure how grey it is. The end doesn’t always justify the means. Just because Qyburn is claiming that he’s doing controversial practices to help people in the long run, it doesn’t necessarily make it so.
I think the new Maisie interview has more spoilers / clues than we have seen since S7 ended.
Colin Armfield,
Really? Oh now I want to get my hands on it!
That’s what makes him such an interesting character to me. It’s very hard to tell his true motives. His talk with Jaime seems very sincere. I belive that HE belives what he is saying. He is polite. He heals people, even people that he doesn’t have to like one of the little bird’s mothers. His experiments were on people that were already dying. On the other hand, he seems to take an unhealthy fascination with his work and he is working for Cersei, who is defitely not a grey character.
I agree that the Ned situation is not similar. Ned is obviously a good character. But I doubt the deserter sees it that way, which was my point (in response to your point about being the victim making you see things differently).
Undead Elephant,
One thing that I do find very interesting is that the Mountain was the one who injured and nearly killed Qyburn in the first place, yet Qyburn still helped bring the Mountain back to life. I would actually admire that if he hadn’t done it for his own selfish purposes, which was to provide his queen with a near-indestructible killing machine.
I do think Qyburn, like most of the characters on this show, has a grey area, but most of his motivations seem to be highly self-centered, IMO. He doesn’t seem to practice medicine because he genuinely wants to be help people. He seems to do it to further some personal agenda of his.
I’m just curious how close to the premiere we’ll get before the countdown clock is corrected. I mean, we already turned our clocks ahead for DST so that’s not a factor, but it’s still counting down to an hour before the premiere airs. Simulcast airing should be 20 days and ~5 hours (instead of 4) as I type this. 😉
Clob,
Lol, I tried to let Luka know about this in a previous thread, but never got a reply. The countdown clock is still wrong. Unless of course Game of Thrones moved to 8:00pm EST, which we already know it did not.
I linked it earlier https://twitter.com/JamesHibberd/status/1110220809644269568
Nrmmmmmppphhhhh.
https://tenor.com/view/lashes-batting-blinking-batting-eyelashes-gif-12519576
No problem 🙂
I just read it and it was the least spoilery article ever.
Jack Bauer 24,
Thanks!
Yep reportedly they all got a storyboard of what D&D thought was their most “iconic” scene…what’s interesting is that some of the people got storyboards for this season (Arya, Beric, Brianne and the Hound, for example…and I think Nicolaj as well…)
I said in an earlier post that I thought it was spoilery too. She doesn’t say what happens, but she gives away alot more than usual about some of her character’s motivations and how she will relate to Sansa and Jon. If you are trying to avoid spoilers altogether, it does give a few more clues than usual (is what I was saying).
She definitely doesn’t give any plot details away though, so it’s not a giant spoiler or anything like that.
No problem. Have you been seeing the 31st as a new promo date? Possibly a second trailer? I originally saw the 28th, but now I’m seeing this Sunday. That’s also the Veep and Barry premieres, so maybe they’ll release something.
I read the new interview of Maisie and I find it rather crazy plot-wise what she says about Jon – he only accepted Dany as Queen after she saved the magnificent 7 and showed what an important player she is with her dragons and the fact that she risked her own life and her children to save them. Before any shipping. How is that him thinking with his pants? And why Arya would doubt his motives since he has remain loyal to the cause to protect the living throughout the series? The guy lost his first love keeping his oaths to the Night’s watch, he’s been stabbed to death trying to find allies and to save people’s life’s on both sides of the wall! I hope they respect his arc! And especially in regard with Arya Jon relationship which no matter what happened in last season is a much stronger and truer bond than with whatever bond Arya may ever create with Sansa. I hope that was just Maisie liking being friendly with her real – life friend and not an actual plot line motive. It would be disappointing – and I’m being generous in my choice of word.
🤣 The scenario is getting better and better 😜
SiriuslyStarkTarg,
Because the northern lords are done with the IT since season 1. Because the Vale Knights remember Aerys burning people alive. Because they begged Jon to not go South. Arya saw all that in season 7. He hasn´t seen Jon since season 1. Because the northeners will see Jon arriving as warden, not king. And with a foreign lover. And they will be reminded of Robb Stark.
Because characters have their POV and are limited with judging what they know.
Besides Daenerys should have throw full support to such a threat from the very beginning. Because one of her titles is “Protector of the realm”. And the kings and queens of the series seem to have forgotten that part.
I really agree.
For those who don’t want to know what interview says, I’ll spoiler code:
These lines have me particularly concerned. I hope it’s Maisie being flippant, but I know that’s wishful thinking. If they belittle Jon’s arc to him just having the hots for Dany instead of holding true to his much nobler intentions of wanting to save all of humanity and seeing her as the person to deliver that (with her army bigger than any in the kingdoms and her weapons of mass destruction), then I will riot… well, maybe just rant, copiously, and largely at my poor husband. I also worry that we are going to be graced with yet more scenes between Sansa and Jon akin to season 6 and 7. I don’t know if it’s just my perceptions of those scenes, but they didn’t have the impact on me that the show runners and actors were going for. In all the commentaries they all lauded Sansa as the brains behind the operation and poor dumb Jon needs to listen to his much more intelligent sister, yet that is not at all what I saw on screen – to me, she often came across as short-sighted, sometimes petulant and quite rude. It sounds like now Sansa is going to be joined by Arya. If Jon doesn’t lose his shit at one point and start yelling at everyone – “The politics of this situation is entirely irrelevant because if I hadn’t brought Daenerys up here then we would all be guaranteed dead! You’re welcome by the way!” and then gruesomely, in great detail, explain his experiences fighting against the wights and WW, then his character will have just become GOT’s punching bag. If they’re going to harangue him then I hope he at least defends himself properly.
Che,
The northern lords and Vale Knights made Jon their king. And as such can hold him accountable for his actions. Specially when they are one sided on his part (even Davos was with a WTF? face when Jon revealed his pledge).
Besides Daenerys isn´t doing this on the goodness of her heart. She wanted the truce with Cersei before riding north with her armies. I wonder what would have happened if Cersei didn´t lie and told “No deal girl”. What would have she chosen?
“Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.”
Daenerys wanted it both ways. Going north to fight the threat and have Cersei remaining quiet. Sadly she is gonna discover via Jaime that she doesn´t get it both ways.
Che,
Completely agree! What I also find maddening is that
Pigeon,
This is about human drama. How do you spent 54 and 58 minutes? What are the bigger fishs? We aren’t gonna watch 6 episodes of living vs dead and coalition vs Lannisters.
There is plenty of bombs who are gonna drop. The Tarlys, Jon parents, Cersei unsurprising treachery.
As for last season. Well is no coincidence that it is called Winterhell. It was badly written and so the themes of that arc are undermined which were “the north remembers” and “the lone wolf dies but the pact survives”.
Littlefinger is finally judged and executed by his past deeds when the direwolves ambush him.
Eonwe,
There are some good points! Sometimes I wonder if we are all watching the same story. Also, the viewers must remember that they have a different set of facts from the characters in the story – we know more about the NK than the northerners do.
It is the northerners hate of the Targs the most (compared to Westerlands etc.) because of Lyanna and that led to the conflict that the ended of the Targ dynasty. Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon. They the MadKing called for more heads. It was Jon, Ned and Bobby that called their men and marched south to remove the Targs from the Iron Throne. Likely everyone in the room at WF has family that lost lives in rebellion against the Targs. By submitting to Daenerys, Jon has made the sacrifices of the lives of all their ancestors to be useless. How do you think they feel? Did he try to bring them into the decision?
I am not saying Jon is wrong to bring the dragons north but he gave up their freedom to the worse possible person without sufficient explanation. I think he made the right call – but to the Northerners, he looks a lot like he would have looked to the Night Watch when he arrived with the Wildings.
Then mistake number two – he arrives and is clearly her lover. It was a tactical mistake to sleep with her so early. If you recall, the northerners did not want to fight with him and Sansa because of Robb’s mistakes.
So what seems to be happening is exactly true to his arc. But they will all sort it out somehow.
i’m not sure I follow. If Cersei doens’t agree not to attack them, then the choice remaining to the alliance (not just Dany) is to either
A) Defeat Cersei then and there, before turning north or
B) Go back to defeat the white walkers with Cersei’s army also harassing them from the south, cutting off supplies, etc.
The first of those would be the better strategy if her hand was forced at that moment. Trying to make peace with Cersei the best option of all, which is why they did it. Not because “Dany wants it both ways”. Of course, Cersei is a liar so they will be stuck with option B anyway. Fortunately for the good guys Cersei wasn’t able to kill Jaime so at least they’ll be able to prepare for it.
Mango,
In the books Aerys not only executed Rickard and Brandon Stark. But also Brandon companions and their fathers went they answered his summons.
Ethan Glover, Kyle Royce, Elber Arryn, Jeffory Mallister and their fathers were executed. Only Ethan Glover survived imprisoned in the Black Cells.
What do you think it’s gonna happen when news of what happened to the Tarlys reach Winterfell?
The execution of Brandon Stark was filmed as a flashback in season 1 but was cut due to time.
Jon position as a king is an interesting one. Jon is a King without lands because Sansa is lady of Winterfell. Which means that his position relies on his bannerman goodwill. No lands no taxes and no levies.
Eonwe,
I’m completely fine to go those 54 minutes without them making Sansa look once again like a whiny entitled bitch (it’s degrading to the character having grown and learned) and Jon a downtrodden sad sack that just takes everything thrown at him (it’s frustrating). It’s old, it’s silly, and by now the characters should have actual backbones and knowledge that petty bickering is irrelevant when you need to stay alive. Sansa and Arya’s discussion at the battlements at the end of last season was promising. Going backwards would be a disservice.
Eonwe,
Daenyers and Cersei made exactly the same choice – to put their ambition to rule ahead of the well-being of the Westeros. Cersei went further along this path however.
Daenerys flew north and saw the thousands of monsters. She should have taken her armies north immediately. Instead, she still decides that she still needed to safeguard her ambitions via a promise from Cersei before she went off. (Stannis decided to try to save Westeros and therefore earn the throne.)
Of course, Cersei is the worst. She completely refused to join in. She will suffer for that mistake. Cersei only saw one monster – she does not really know the scope of the problem for herself. Daenerys saw them all for herself. Cersei’s informants are her enemies. Jaime believes the threat because he is a better leader than Cersei. He knows that this risk is too high to ignore it plus he respects Tyrion’s report.
QueenofThrones,
Going north means that Dany loses her holdings in the Reach, Dorne and Westerlands. That’s what worried her. She said so back in the Dragonpit. “I can ignore that Cersei will take back what she lost as soon I head north”.
The tactical value didn’t enter her at all. Besides Daenerys forces have little to no supplies to attack since she burned the Reach harvest.
As for Cersei attacking her from the rear. The north is easily to defend via land. The only safe passage is though Moat Caitlin where hundreds can held back thousands. And once you are in the north. Conquering it is a fool’s errand. The north is so big that you risk spreading your troops too much. Which was what happened to Balon Greyjoy.
Eonwe,
Do you believe the Vale made Jon their king? I may have missed that..
I do not believe that Robin Arynn was present. His representative was Littlefinger – did he commit to Jon?
The room shouted King of the North. The Vale is not a part of the North. Even if the Vale men were joining in the cheer – can they back Jon without Robin Arryn’s consent?
Eonwe,
Killing the Tarlys by fire was a very bad decision. Your Daddy burned up these folk so they rebelled – you arrive and in your first public appearance, you burn someone. Nice way to let everyone know you are different!!
Tyrion tried his best to help her. To no avail.
Pigeon,
I don’t find it going backwards. It’s the POV trap. Jon is coming home being only warden. He comes with a lover from Essos.
Sansa listened to lord Glover acusing Robb of sleeping with a foreign love and losing the north.
Poor Arya saw the Freys parading Robb’s corpse with Grey Wind’s head sewed to it. She also saw that lord Royce and lord Glover were concerned with the lack of news. And how they wanted to crown Sansa.
What do you think they will think when they see uncrowded Jon with her girlfriend queen?
They are gonna feel betrayed. And they are gonna seek answers from Jon. Now Jon has the chance to explain herself or screw things.
And even with the bad writing you see characters improving. Jon shows an amount of trust into Sansa that is repaid by her refusing the crow and acting as a competent regent. Sansa saw the value of Jon policies of not holding children accountable for their fathers deeds. By the end of the season Arya acknowledges Sansa.
I don’t think that Jon was an idiot. Maybe when he agreed to the stupid idea of going Wight hunting. And maybe when he pulled a second Leeroy Jenkins against the NK.
Idiot was Tyrion believing Cersei. Really dude? After season 4?
I think after some hassle they all will settle into an uneasy alliance.
The dragons and the massive “disposable” army are needed and they are now there in place as they were always intended to be.
Mango,
This is feudalism not absolutism. It means that a king and their lords are in a two way contract of fealty. A king has it’s power thanks to the nobles.
Robert Arryn is still a child with a regent. That was LF. But even LF knew the moment the Valemen drew their swords and chanted THE KING IN THE NORTH! That he must follow the tyde or he would be stripped of it’s regency.
But it fell into his plans. With the Vale laying vassalage towards the Stark it was only a matter of eliminating Jon and see Sansa crowned.
Robert’s was named king by the lords of the Stormlands, the North, the Vale and the Riverlands before the Battle of the Trident. They renounced their oaths to House Targaryen and pledged themselves to Robert.
Burning the Tarlys is one of Dany’s dumber decisions. Varys words are spot on because the fear of a new Aerys is real. An Aerys with dragons will be too much…
Eonwe,
I would disagree;forget not that Arya had not seen Sansa or Bran from season 1 either but she didn’t doubt them or their motives as proved by the end of the last season.
Why should she doubt Jon who she loves more than any other sibling and who she’s known all these years growing up before Ned died?
Also Arya was never fond of politicians she’s a straight forward person who wants truth and justice unlike Sansa who has learned how to manipulate and be a political animal to maintain positions of power. In all respects the opposite of Arya. And again even if Sansa and Co lords don’t believe Jon about the WW there’s Bran, they could ask him. Or was Bran good enough only to provide info about LF to justify his execution but he’s not reliable when it comes to other matters?
Secondly about the northern lords he said to them he’s going to get dragon glass and Dany as ally because of her armies. He delivers both, and they bitch about it while they already knew why he went there in the first place?
Now the only matter is that he bend the knee without asking them. But really, if they did believe him about the WW from the start enough so to unite with him and declare him king, logic says they would also understand the need for what he did.
Lastly,if not anything else is – as far as they know Dany is the heir to the throne. Their King marrying the future Queen would be a most advantageous match for the North, much unlike Robbs situation where his wife was, politically speaking, a liability. So, these tensions are plasmatic and I see them as unessecary plot holes. I hope they won’t exaggerate on such stuff and destroy Jon’s arc.
Che,
Yes! Totally agree☺️
Pigeon,
I hated that too, in fact it was the one thing that has been bothering me in the relevant seasons.
Eonwe,
It’s going backwards if they fall back into the same childish bickering pattern that solves nothing. There is no reason that they can’t discuss the issues, or disagree, that isn’t my point. I want to see them making smarter arguments should they have any, with well thought out discussion. Hopefully that will be what happens going forward. When things need to (try to) be explained to an audience after the fact instead of us getting what they’re laying down as the scenes unfold, that’s not satisfying. Fingers crossed.
Eonwe,
Thanks, I had missed that very subtle point on the King business. So Robin Arryn is pledged away.
Jon really needed to consult with the lords – in keeping with the two mutual contracts. He does not have a long history of mutual trust to draw upon when he gave them away to his lover – that is the way they will see it.
Jon means well.
SiriuslyStarkTarg,
Heir to the throne? Why would they think Daenerys is heir to the throne?
Ned marched south with thousands of northerners to end the Targ line of succession. These people lost family members to remove the Targs.
If the problem was just Aerys and Rhaeger, they could have sent for Viserys and kept the Targ succession. Bobby could have ruled as regent until Versys returned. Yes, he did put on the “fig leaf” of his blood relationship to the Targs so that the lords that support Aerys would join up but this was a new line of succession.
You will notice that Ned did not send for Daenerys when Bobby died. He did not send for Jon. He sent for Stannis. This was a Baratheon line of succession – the northerners will have that same view.
Do you think they want to be ruled by Targs? That would be a tough sell in the North.
Jon bent the knee to Daenerys AFTER she pledged to destroy the Night King’s army together with him. Why did he do it, then? Probably because she is the only one who gave herself unreservedly to fight by his side. Everyone else is scheming for some agenda or the other, even the person who is supposed to be his sister.
Actually, Jon has a cluster of true friends: Tormund, Edd, Sam. But I don’t think there’s anything like family and home, and I think that’s what he found in Daenerys. I’m happy for him!
Cersei didn’t expect Jaime to ride for Winterfell on his own. He will arrive with the news that Cersei isn’t sending troops. Team Dragon will discover Cersei’s double-cross much earlier than she intended them to. Is Cersei’s double-cross also Tyrion’s double-cross? If it is, then Tyrion, too, is in for a surprise when Jaime arrives with that news. Drat, foiled again!
Yeah, that’s the point. They wanted the dragonglass and the dragons. Not a new ruler that they didn’t ask for. Complaints are legitimate.
Why? They made it clear before he left that they were against being ruled by the Targaryens again and he stated that he intended to “persuade her to fight with us”, not bend the knee.
Until they hear his explanation, they have a legitimate grievance. And he can’t stand up in front of the Northern Lords and tell them that Dany made him bend the knee, because that’s not what happened. So what’s his explanation?
I love her? I felt guilty because she lost a dragon when she came to rescue me beyond The Wall? Oh yeah, FYI, I went beyond The Wall without telling you and that’s why the Night King now has a dragon and The Wall has fallen. But it’s okay because I got Cersei Lannister to agree to a truce. Oh wait….
There’s plenty to be annoyed about without ignoring the fact that having Dany’s armies and dragons on their side is beneficial.
Except their King wouldn’t be marrying the Queen. He’s bent the knee. He’s now subordinate to her. If they marry now, she is the queen and he would be consort.
Only way out of that inequality now is if it’s revealed that he’s actually the trueborn Targaryen heir to the throne… which actually only complicates the situation further and makes such a union, between two Targaryens, even less palatable to The North.
What would destroy Jon’s arc is if he gave away The North for no reason. And I don’t buy all that bogus “but Dany proved herself and sacrificed her child and he was really grateful etc etc etc” argumentation. It’s nonsense.
He was the KING IN THE NORTH, he repeatedly insisted that his people WON’T ACCEPT A SOUTHERN RULER and he BENT THE KNEE when he apparently didn’t need to.
We need the explanation. One that isn’t reliant on heart eyes or ignoring logic.
SiriuslyStarkTarg,
Jon went south against his bannerman wishes.
Lord Royce: You can’t trust a Targaryen your grace?
Lyanna Mormont: Your place is here in the north your grace.
Sansa: You’re abandoning our people!
What do you think they will think when Jon presents himself as Warden of the North of their nre queen Daenerys Targaryen?
They named Jon King. They wanted to part ways with the IT. As soon as Jon presence fades they went to Sansa. Who is Jon to decide on his own that the north and Vale are now under Daenerys rule? They’re not gonna like it.
That bit wasn’t put last season for nothing.
And then we have Jon’s parentage. This is gonna go public and it a disaster. Because it makes Jon’s claim superior to that of Daenerys. Because children claims come before those of siblings. Because Jon is a man and was raised in Westeros. The lords would prefer him over the woman raised in Essos. Because by the laws of the Targaryens Jon is the king and Dany is princess.
It changes the game even in the current relationship. Targaryen intermarriage is viewed by Westeros as the main reason that greatness and madness were so prominent in the Targs without a middle ground? A nephew and aunt marriage with two dragons is gonna unsettle everyone.
Jon owns his family and bannerman an explanation on why he bent the knee. His lords rebelled first against the Targs and later against the IT. And now Jon has made then single-handedly subjects to a Targaryen who wants the IT.
Is gonna be nice see all this drama while the walkers arrive. And then there is Cersei.
…here’s another thing. Does Tyrion really want his beloved brother fighting in the Great War? ..his one-handed brother?
Jaime was supposed to lead the Lannister forces north as it’s general. Did Tyrion really want that to happen? Tyrion is telling Team Dragon that he does want – and expect – Lannister forces to arrive …led by Jaime, naturally.
Tyrion does NOT want his brother fighting and dying on the northern tundra.
Firannion,
Junkyard? Well, these days I think they call it the recycling centre. That explains why you are still alive and living in full technicolour!
Plus dirt is about 65 MILLION years old – you are babe on that scale!!!
Sansa, the evil sister conspiring against Jon but…
She wanted Jon to have lord Stark chambers. She was willing to give her bastard brother chambers for true born children.
She advices Jon about not making Ned and Robb mistakes.
When Bran came back to WF the first thing she did was relinquish her title of Lady of Winterfell. By laws Bran as the only true born son has a bigger claim. Political animal Sansa offers her brother what’s his. That’s not something she learned from LF.
Lord Glover and lord Royce displeased with Jon and his lack of news while Sansa is managing the north offer to crow her. Ambitious Sansa is polite refusing it and making them remember Jon is the king.
All of this with Little Finger lurking and Arya falling for a letter written in the first season under Cersei’s orders.
I would say that Jon is gonna go back to a still united north thanks to Sansa. Who oversaw the less glorious aspects of a ruler like accumulating food in the stores or making sure their soldiers will stay warm. The kind of stuff that Robert didn’t want to deal with it.
Anon,
Jon has a family. The Starks. And a home at Winterfell. First Sansa came back. Now he has Arya and Bran even when he hadn’t seen them.
This is the guy who said “We should never have left Winterfell”
Anon,
Jaime could take a page from Tywin. Lead armies from the rear. It’s not uncommon. But instead Jaime will arrive by himself and without armies.
Eonwe,
Yet Jaime will find a way to lead the gathered…trust me! (lol! right?since D&D confided in me…)
It will become a case of whom do you distrust the least AND who knows something about fighting and leading an army.
Anon,
Jon told Daeneyrs that he had to go home at one point. I think when he got the scroll while at Dragonstone.
Clearly, he did think that he had a home and family………
Mango,
And Jaime was the one who killed Dany’s dad and tried to kill her last season.
Daenerys is not gonna be pleased at all. Specially if Jaime behaves like his usual smart mouthed jerk
Eonwe,
Lol!
We will see how it goes down. I think the NK will focus their minds on the true enemy.
Mango,
It would be like The Battle of the Five Armies from The Hobbit. Everyone is ready to start killing each other when their common enemy casually arrives.
Yeah? We’ll see about that when Lady Stoneheart finds out that Jon is Rhagar’s son. I bet she tries to chase him out of there immediately!
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Yup. 💯%. You covered all of the counterpoints.
Despite the silliness of the wight hunt plan, Jon had lucked into achieving all of the objectives he told his people he needed to achieve:
• Mine dragonglass from Dragonstone. ✅
• Persuade Dany to come north with armies and dragons:
“…But more importantly, we need allies. The Night King’s army grows larger by the day. We can’t defeat them on our own. We don’t have the numbers. Daenerys has her own army and she has dragon fire. I need to try and persuade her to fight with us.” (Jon. S7e2) ✅
• Return to the north in one piece, having successfully assumed the calculated risk of heading south with foreknowledge (and ample warnings from Sansa, Royce, Glover, and Lyanna Mormont) of the lousy track record of Starks/prior northern monarchs who went south and never came back, or lost their crowns and their heads. ✅
• Vindicate his decision to accept Tyrion’s invitation to negotiate with Dany in person instead of sending an envoy, despite vocal objections that a Lannister and a Targaryen can’t be trusted, and the entreaty “Winter is here, Your Grace. We need the King in the North in the North.” ( – Lyanna Mormont) .✅
• Obtain Dany’s no-strings-attached agreement to come north and fight the NK. ✅
There was absolutely NO reason for Jon to “bend the knee” at that point. Even if he felt it would benefit his people, there was no need to unilaterally relinquish the North’s sovereignty and his own crown without first discussing it with the grumbling Lords and Sansa.
He already got himself killed once before because he made a rash decision he thought was “right” without first selling it to his followers. [Doesn’t he know every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson is supposed to make you better?] He had already declined Dany’s ultimatum to “bend the knee” because “my people won’t accept a southern ruler,”
I still don’t understand his motivation, especially since he had to know his bedside abdication will surely foment a political sh*tstorm, if not an insurrection.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
“He was the KING IN THE NORTH, he repeatedly insisted that his people WON’T ACCEPT A SOUTHERN RULER and he BENT THE KNEE when he apparently didn’t need to.
We need the explanation. One that isn’t reliant on heart eyes or ignoring logic.”
_______
I don’t think there is a logical explanation, is there?
I could’ve bought into his decision had Dany not made her unconditional promise first. When she vowed they’d defeat the NK together, he should’ve thought to himself: “Great! Mission accomplished! Time for a nap. Maybe when I’m all rested up I’ll pay her a visit to “console” her.”
Anon,
Lady Stoneheart was sadly cut from the show.
Mango,
Eonwe,
True. And had not there been the issue of WW marching in the North to WF, I would approach the matter in a different way and I would agree on most of your well-argued points.
BUT, the question here, to my view, is: do they want to live and be ruled by this Targ who is the only one who actually cared enough to come to their rescue, or DIE?
Things are pretty simple at this point. The problem is, that people that have not seen the WW – and even some who have, like Cercei – continue to think and act in political terms, while this is a matter of their survival.
Which considering how they treat Jon who has been trying to save people all this time, maybe they deserve whatever the NK does to them! I actually want the NK to march all the way down to KL and make wights out of everybody, sit on the throne and be done with cheap politics and petty personal interests for power and ambition. Remember when Brienne – one of the most loyal people in Westeros said to Jaimie – said ‘f.. loyalty!’ trying to make the point, ‘loyalty to what?’ This is about loyalty to LIfe, and the living and not about who will wear the crown and who rules in the North or wherever.
My initial point was that Jon never thought with his pants, and I find that point raised as whatever plot motive as, at the least, dissapointing to his entire arc. He bend the knee long before anything romantic happened with Dany. Jon wouldn’t follow anyone if he didn’t respect them and didn’t feel they were the best choice. If his own family doesn’t respect what he is doing, if they doubt his motives while he always did things according to what’s best in order to protect the humankind, then really, what’s the point of all that he’s been through?
Ten Bears,
The way I saw it, after Dany risked her own life (and her dragons) to save the magnificent 7 and make sure that the mission was accomplished, he realized that she’s worth to be a Queen. Jon never cared about crowns and positions for himself, only what’s best for the people in terms of survival. And after what Dany did, he believes that she indeed is the best choice for a ruler.. He didn’t do it because he had to, but because he truly believes in her. So, at least to me, what he did was justified. It should have been so to Sansa and the rest of the family as well, as Jon never gave any reason to doubt his motives. And especially arc-wise, for us viewers, who repeatedly saw him as a man of his word, who puts others before him, and a man who does what needs to be done for the greater good, even if it literally costs him his life.
Lastly, Littlefinger had said something to Sansa, hinting that Jon’s a King young and unmarried and so is Dany. And that he was named King in the North and cannot be unnamed, pointing out that a marriage alliance between them would be very good for Jon and the North, as it would be difficult to defeat their armies combined. So, even LF (even for different reasons) saw the use of such an alliance, and LF was a deeply political creature. So, even if someone wanted to approach this in terms of diplomacy of war for the throne, it would again make sense to make an alliance between them.
There are many ways to approach what’s happening at this point, so thank you all for taking the time to write your views, there where many good issues raised, and lots of food for thought.
I might be interested in one…I’m only 31 but have always been almost exclusively attracted to significantly older men…;)
I never felt that Jon had made a bad call in bending the knee, but I can see why one would think he should’ve just waited to go over it with the northern lords. But everyone is going to have to get over their little quibbles and squabbles real quick, I think, and simply be grateful for the chance at victory Jon & Dany have brought them. There’s no time for a fuss and a fight, as the brave little toaster would say.
Totally agreed with Siriusly & Che.
Qyburn is an intriguing guy. I’d taken him as basically amoral…but what is truly his primary motivation? “The greatest good for the greatest number?” Or knowledge for its own sake, and at any cost seeing how much power over life itself he could achieve? He’s seemed happy enough to serve an evil person who indulges his disturbing passions. Wonder whether he’ll stick with her to the end or what. His pleasant cuteness makes me wish I could like him more. xD
As I’ve said I do believe that Melisandre is genuinely driven by the desire to do good, even if that ultimate goal involves committing nearly unspeakable acts along the way…softened slightly by the fact that in her earnest worldview, her victims will be better off with the Lord of Light.
Tron79,
That particular comment of hers intrigued me too. After you’ve rewatched Season 1, can you post your guesses as to what some of those Season 8 “callback scenes” might be? 🙂 The only one I can think of right now is Cleganebowl as a callback to Sandor and Gregor’s fight at the tournament.
This. Honestly I have no idea what people mean when they say that it was an “illogical” decision, that just seems like the sort of thing who have no understanding of people or Jon’s character specifically would say. Dany is willing to save not only Jon but the world, that’s a big deal and worthy of great respect.
Same as how everything is “bad writing” now if people don’t like it, the word logic is losing it’s meaning
Her bitterness lives inside Sansa, now.
Tron 70, in your rewatch for set up scenes – pay attention to the scene in which Tywin cups Jaime’s face and tell him to become the man he was meant to be…..
It is a set for one of the best arc ever in television. It is an arc that GRRM put a lot of work into creating this Jaime journey for his readers.
Writers build a story. It is not a set of random events. GRRM put a lot into structuring Jaime.
I’m kind of puzzled when I hear about the North’s sovereignty. I don’t know if you can ask for, then accept that level of assistance from the Dragon Queen and expect not to pay back in some way. I mean, if they don’t trust her then they should reject her help. I don’t know if she marching there to help and then marching home with nothing is an option.
There is something to be said about Robert’s respect for unity. He thought that the seven kingdoms couldn’t stand against the dothraki’s unity. He thought that the SK was too fragmented with backstabbing and scheming. The war needs a leader, a single leader that everyone can get behind.
Of course, the Wall being down will change all calculations.
There is no time for consultation. Jon, once more (because he just can’t seem to stop himself!) risked and nearly lost his life to secure allies in the fight against the AOTD. It’s paid off. He is returning with the biggest army the north has ever seen and two gigantic fire breathing dragons. While he was risking his personal safety, pride and his title, all in the greater good, people back home were meaning about him and turning instead to his sister (who thankfully had his back). I don’t doubt that when Jon returns having ceded the northern throne to Dany and also having taken her as his lover, that everyone is going to be up in arms (for all the reasons stated above), however, I don’t believe that this means Jon should have consulted on any of his decisions. It may lead to a couple of weeks of absolute hell with everyone up on arms, but as soon as the AOTD start attacking and Dany’s troops launch into action, I imagine everyone will be singing a different tune.
This is why the first few episodes of predicted bickering, as Pigeon quite rightly puts it, are going to grate on my nerves a little bit. This is why I want Jon to lose his temper and put the northern lords (and his siblings) in their places by declaring that the politics is entirely irrelevant. With Dany’s forces and the dragon glass they stand a chance of survival, without, they’d all be dead as soon as the AOTD arrive. If he doesn’t properly explain how their situation is so dire that no amount of petty politics can match it, then I am going to be very disappointed in what has been done to his character. He had the fire to argue with with the watch over the rescue of the wildlings and his reason for doing so, I hope he retains it now.
And please, no more public arguments in front of court. So Jon and Sansa just not speak outside of court? I hope we don’t see public arguments with Sansa (and Arya by the sounds of it) one-upping Jon and getting all the lords riled up against Jon. It will seem so incredibly short sighted if they do – to turn on the man who died for his cause, has given every aspect of his life to saving mankind from the AOTD, has brought with him their chance for survival, into a whipping boy incapable of defending himself intelligently. Enough of the dumbing down of Jon’s character!!
Anon,
Yes, but that leader cannot be a Targ. Anyway, an uneasy alliance will be arrived at for the fight against the NK. Expect Tyrion, Jaime, Davos, Sansa to play important roles in getting this cooperation together.
Jon needed to consult the North. Perhaps, he could have promised her fealty IF she defeated the NK. So she delivers first and then they serve. Instead, he gives them away and starts sleeping with her. He means well but his decision-making? well, well.
Deanerys has her own reason to want to destroy the NK – he killed her dragon. More important, she knows she cannot rule Westeros while the NK is coming. She has resaon to fight beyond just helping the North. NK is a competitor to Deaneryrs ambitions.
In my tinfoil, Jon is Lightbringer and his role was to divert the Daenerys’ dragons and army to their real purpose. The fight against the NK. Jon and Daenerys are magic to match the NK magic. Once GRRM introduced magic monsters, he had to introduce magic defensive weapons/magic heroes. Once the NK is over then, Jon and Daenerys have served their purpose. They may end up ruling or not. I am with the nots.
Che,
Deaneyrs has to fight the NK anyway. What is she going to rule if the NK overruns Westeros?
Jon should not need to persuade her. She saw the monsters herself.
It’s painful to read people insisting that Jon giving away his kingdom because Dany risked her life or deserves “great respect” is a logical decision.
What does her saving his life or risking her own have to do with him giving away his kingdom for no reason?
If he has a choice between: A. Fight to defeat the Night King alongside Daenerys, who just pledged her support five seconds earlier, without bending the knee; or B. Fight to defeat the Night King alongside Daenerys after bending the knee unnecessarily and stirring up a whole load of unnecessary drama. Which is the logical choice?
The argument that he simply realised that she was “worthy” and therefore decided to turn over his entire kingdom and all of his subjects with no regard for the potential fallout, not to mention ultimate command of the war effort against the White Walkers, is bogus and childish and disrespectful to the audience. If she has already pledged to fight alongside The North, then there is no need to give up his kingdom in perpetuity at that point.
The fact that people are now ragging on Sansa, Arya and the Northern Lords for daring to question that decision is even more irrational.
Unless there is some as yet unrevealed rationale behind his decision it makes Jon look like a reckless dope; which I hate saying because he’s been my favourite character throughout this entire series and still is.
We deserve a proper explanation for why he bent the knee. Not for why he respects Dany or why he has brought her north. That’s all perfectly well reasoned.
But why he bent the knee when he did not have to is not properly established.
“bUt sHe sAvEd hIs LifE aNd LOst a dRaGoN” is not a reasonable explanation. And if that’s really the producers logic, then it’s as disappointing as Sansa not telling Jon about the KotV because deus ex Rohirrim or Arya bumbling about Braavos like a noob when she’s being pursued by faceless assassins.
I would’ve been (grudgingly. I like him being KitN) accepting of Jon bending for good reason; for example, as Ten Bears said, if he was still desperate to secure Dany’s assistance in the war.
If they offer some sort of explanation in Season 8 that Jon still felt he needed to bend the knee in order to secure her assistance then I could perhaps stomach that. But bending the knee because she “deserves it”, when he didn’t need to, is a blatant crock.
Mango,
Wait ’till they find out that they made a Targaryen their king; but by then, they’ll probably be dead and it won’t matter.
I would like to think that Dany is a rounded thinker and is considering all the things you mention. I don’t think the North can resist a Targ with dragons and a massive army. If they can’t resist her force, then the only option is a friendly alliance. A marriage would be even better. It’s a win-win situation. Lots of benefits and few detriments.
The north was sovereign only while Robb campaigned. Then Roose took over and bent the knee to the Lannisters. Then Jon and Sansa took over and I suppose they think they’re sovereign… what does that mean, really? Here they are asking a foreign queen for help…
Anon,
Her purpose in the story is to help with the NK.
After that, we see.
This is a very valid point. We know the north are facing an army of unprecedented, unnatural strength, but the fact remains that they would all die if Daenerys didn’t come to their aid. (They may still all die anyway). So don’t they all owe her their allegiance? Without her, they would all be dead and there would be no north to squabble over.
If you don’t see those two ruling, then who do you see taking the throne?
I don’t necessarily want to “like him more”—but I really, really hope we discover his ultimate motivation.
Btw, Anton Lesser was Romeo in the Royal Shakespeare Company’s 1980 (1981?) production of Romeo and Juliet.
Anon,
Just to respond here.
I do not know if the Iron T will exist or not. However, there will be a leader with a leadership team. I think the leader and leadership team will be drawn from this group: Jaime, Tyrion, Sansa, Brienne and Davos. It depends on who survives.
Jon and Daenyrs were never under consideration for leadership in my book. Daenerys’ storyline tells us that ultimate power does not make you a leader. Jon is a good lad but his storyline says that a good heart does not make you a leader.
Jon could have been considered, he would perhaps be a bit like Tommen. Ending early in sadness as well.
For me, Daenerys was always out of consideration for leadership. A return to Targ domination would be such a sad fate for Westeros – back to being conquered. If she is looking for a home – yes, she can make a happy home in Westeros. Varys seems to have done OK. But, not via terror.
For the lady – threatening a population with weapons of mass destruction and planning to rule by terror disqualified her from day 1. Unless she killed the dragons it would be rule by terror, she burns people on a whim. As from her repeated declaration of an absolute right to rule, even without going over her claim, just the concept is worrying. She has the worst case of daddy’s princess in the story – she is intent on getting what her daddy left for her. She is as entitled as Joffrey. Compare that to Brienne’s chill/willingness to serve despite what she is due from her daddy. However, I wondered if GRRM wanted to reimpose the Targ empire, he seems to really like them. Daenerys may end up ruling in the end.
I forgot to say Jon is also undead. – so his leadership already ended badly.
Mango,
You’re not serious ..likening Jon to Tommen?? You’ve got to see Jon’s fighting compilation video floating around on Reddit. Jon is no Tommen.
You may not like them, but the Targs are back! And thank the gods for it. Jaime, Brienne, Sansa, Tyrion and Davos are all flawed people with little to no desire to rule, with perhaps the exception of Tyrion. Kings Landing does not want the demon monkey back.
Dany never knew her father, or her mother. It’s incredible that an exiled orphan has so much self confidence. She certainly didn’t get it from her parents. She is self-made from start to finish.
Anon,
I think Tommen was a good chap who became king – only in that sense do I mention Jon in the same way.
Oh, I thought Daenerys derived her claim to Westeros rule from who her daddy was. Nothing wrong with that a princess complex.
Anon,
Yes, Cersei and Daenerys have been the most desperate to rule. Yes, many see this ambition as a requirement for ruling but it also can also be a feature of future tyrants.
Jaime, Brienne, Sansa, Tyrion and Davos have been more willing to serve. (Sansa wanted to be wife to the king, I am not sure what that count as.). If you want to see a good leader in the making – look for those willing to serve. Good rulers understand it as service.
As Joer Mormont said to Jon – you want to lead, serve.
You have a way of painting Jon and Daenerys in the worst possible light. It sometimes seems like you purposefully ignore huge positive parts of their personalities and arcs.
Yes, they’re flawed. So are all the characters in this show, that’s what makes them feel real.
May I just ask, why do you think the Dothraki and the Unsullied (and all the slaves of slavers bay) followed Daenerys? Do Missandei’s words not resonate? I’m paraphrasing because I can’t quite remember what she said and I’m on my phone and can’t easily look it up – “She’s not our qeeen because her father was some man we never knew. She’s the queen we chose.” Dany has inspired HUGE devotion in HUGE numbers of people – you ignore this totally in your damning summary of her character. Yes, she can act entitled and she has a fiery impulsive anger that needs checking (and largely, she listens to reason from her council), no one denies these traits, but to just summarise her by her negatives is disingenuous to who she is.
What is so bad about Targ rule exactly? Prior to Aegon’s conquest, the seven kingdoms were permanently at war with each other – 3/4 of the kingdoms at war at any one time. Borders were constantly changing. People constantly dying. For the small folk, it must have been hellish. So under Targaryen rule, in a United Kingdom, they suffered a lot less than they did pre-conquest. There were of course awful Targaryen rulers, but there were also awful rulers before them (Harren of Harrenhall anyone?) and after them (Joffrey, Cersei). There were also very good Targ rulers. It seems like being a United Kingdom unified in peace is much better for everyone, aside from proud aristocracy who feel they have a right to rule their ancestral lands. I am a huge proponent of the EU and am devastated (and oh so bored) by Brexit because I feel unified in peace is always the better option over the poison of nationalism.
I do too.
Oh wow! Bet he was great. I have no idea what it was, but a while back I caught part of some movie on TV and recognized him…
Anton is in one of my favourite TV series called “Endeavour”. Basically a prequel to (Inspector) Morse, if anyone remembers the show with John Thaw and Kevin Whately. Anyhoo, Anton plays a chief superintendent who is pretty insufferable at first to our main character, but as the seasons go by we see a peek into his true character. He is really a fantastic actor.
Che,
I love Jon – let me make that clear. Just in case it is not obvious.
You are right that my answer did address the various forms of leadership. In my response to Anon – the question was in the context of ruling, leading an institution or society etc. This is different from leading a rebellion as Robert was to find out.
The Unsullied and Dothraki – they are in the story to provide a “disposable” army to counter the dead army. LOTR used an army of the dead for this purpose. Following Daenerys was the mechanism to get them there. Their motivations are very thin – that is all that is needed in this story, however. A group of men with no hope of families and whose only skill in fighting in this group and a group whose hobby is to pillage and fight – following a person that can defeat fire and has big dragons. Geez, I would follow her too if I were in their place. She looks like a winner.
Targs? Short, rough answer. I disapprove of groups that use terror to invade and rule and define themselves as racially superior (for whatever reason).
Che,
I agree with you on the EU. Brexit is crazy!
On the EU and Westeros: Hitler invaded much of Europe with his superior military machine and his superior Aryan race – he would have united Europe under one ruler. You know like the EU! Good thing? This would be the same as what the Targs did for Westeros. BUT that DOES NOT mean Hitler was correct and good. The Europeans fought like hell to save themselves. (Thanks to the Russian winter/army they got away from this Aryan fiend.) So yes, unity – but not at any price and under an invader’s firepower.
While I see the point you’re making, I disagree that Hitler and Aegon were all that similar. Hitler wanted to wipe out people of races and ethnic groups he viewed as inferior to his own, as well as people he viewed as sub-human (the disabled etc.). He installed his own people in the territories he seized and was utterly, sadistally ruthless. Aegon, in GRRM’s own words, could be ruthless in battle, but was also known to be forgiving of his enemies and respectful of the ways of the lands he was conquering. If a lord swore fealty to him, even if they had taken up arms against him (i.e. Loren Lannister), he let them keep their lands and titles and gave them grand positions (I.e. Warden of the West).
Another problem with the comparison is that prior to Aegon’s conquest, the kingdoms were always warring with one another. Smallfolk we’re dying left right and centre, lands we’re constantly changing hands, not ideal for peaceful living. Again, in GRRM’s own words, when Aegon was crowned king, the smallfolk rejoiced. I’m not sure that many of the citizens of countries invaded by Hitler rejoiced.
And finally, the rulers of the seven kingdoms weren’t democratically elected leaders (like many EuropeN countries had at the time of WWII), they were in their positions of power because they, or their ancestors, seized power in the same way Aegon did. Conquest was an accepted means of power grabbing. Aegon had a massive unfair advantage, but the idea of seizing land and power would have been a familiar one to the inhabitants of Westeros at the time.
In the end, the smallfolk are the ones who matter right? Because the vast, overwhelming amount of people in westeros are peasants. Their lives were better without the constant wars being waged between ruling houses who viewed them as fodder. To me, that sounds like a preferable option than constant war.
Thanks for replying; the posts are moving so quickly now that I wasn’t sure you’d see my reply as this post is so far down the page now!
I’m sorry if I generalised your opinion on Dany to Jon as well, I must have misread that.
See I think that writing off the devotion of the unsullied and Dothraki to Dany is taking a lot away from her character. I think you’re right that those armies will be all but wiped out in the north, but to say that this is the only function they serve is something I really disagree on. I wouldn’t say their reasons are flimsy – A magical, mystical saviour-like character comes and gives your life back to you (in the case of the unsullied) and makes impossible things happen (Dragons, surviving infernos etc.) – she also oozes confidence and strength, yet also fairness and great care for even the most downtrodden people (slaves). [I’m not denying that she is arrogant, entitled and ruthless as well by the way – she is those things too]. I can see why they all chose to follow her and it’s when Jon realises this for the first time, really realises it, he pledges to follow her too.
In the end, I don’t see Daenerys ruling – mainly because she has spent seven seasons saying she will and I just don’t think GRRM’s world will work out that way – but I can see why she has inspired a huge following of people and I do think that there is much more to her character than being a Disney entitled princess (with a penchant for setting things on fire).
As to your last point – yes, Aegon had a massively unfair advantage over everyone else during the years of his conquest. I agree with that and to modern standards, it feels feels deeply uncomfortable, but as I explained in my previous comment, conquest as a notion to Westeros was a familiar and acceptable form of power grabbing. The rulers who ruled each of the seven kingdoms pre-conquest would have got their positions of power through conquest and bloodshed and they continued to try to seize more land and power by constantly waging war on each other. I feel this changes the situation a bit – if Aegon stormed Europe today with dragons and unseated democratically elected leaders to seize land, then it would be much more terrible than unseating other rulers who had seized power through bloodshed themselves. Also, I am reading Fire and Blood and haven’t yet come across instances where Targs acted in a racially superior way (I’m only a third of the way in to be fair) – other than the age-old inter-sibling marriages to keep a bloodline pure. We’ve had this discussion before though 😊 and I think that intermarrying with other houses shows they didn’t consider themselves as pure and superior as you suggest they did.
Finally, I do feel that for almost everyone in the seven kingdoms life was better when war wasn’t constantly waging. A ruthless leader took powe by conquest unseating other ruthless war mongering leaders who had seized power by conquest.
GRRM is obsessed with the Targaryens. I think we need to take this as a huge hint.
Please god let Jorah die this season, it’s long over due. Nothing against Iain or even any dislike for the character but he’s been through too much and deserves some rest. Surely he’s a primary candidate not to survive episode three.
Haha yes that line stuck out to me too and made me laugh. Could you imagine the torment if Ser Jorah survives and either see’s Dany go mad or sees her go to bed with Jon each night, it will be torture.
That feels like way too happy an ending, expect some bitter amongst the sweet to quote such a well known phrase for the ending. We are almost certainly going to lose some fan favourites here.
>
You are the man with all the news Jack although I am really struggling to keep up with all these interviews and press releases right now!
Any news on a potential second trailer or premiere episode title?