HBO began airing its annual “Yearender” video today, showcasing the best of the network’s original programming in 2014, and offering up a look at what we can expect from HBO in 2015.
There are a few glimpses of new Game of Thrones footage in the video, checking in with Cersei, Jon Snow, Tyrion and Arya in particular. See for yourself!
Sue the Fury: Well, I think I was hoping for a little bit more than that, since there’s nothing really new there except Tyrion’s new look and the water behind Arya, but it’s still very exciting! 2015, here we come.
Wocka wocka wocka
Love Tyrion’s new look! Good to know that they haven’t forgotten that he’s a fugitive đ
Rygar,
Børk! Børk! Børk!
Wow – just rewatched and it looks like Hugh Laurie is going to be on Veep this year? He was my dream pick for Mance! Wrong show
that was 0,015% of season 5, lol
I notice the absence of Daenerys there… I’m not complaining, good they dont feel obligated to throw her in every spot !
Jon,
…and 0.12% of ep1 ! (assuming 4s of 54min) So pumped! đ
I bet all of these bits are part of ep1.
Welp, looks like that seeming pic of Tyrion wearing that outfit floating around a while back (which some were skeptical of) was real…
The shot of Tyrion with his beard, his disguise, and (presumably just out of frame) a full flagon of wine to drown his many sorrows is probably the most intriguing shot here, especially for new viewers. Of course, we had seen photos of Peter Dinklage dressed in that style before, but as always, official is better. We may not know exactly where he is at that moment, but my guess would be
The shot of Arya is certainly from her first appearance of the season (whether that turns out to be Episode 1 or Episode 2), as she still has her old clothes, and we can see Ternesio Terys rowing away in the background.
We can’t infer much from the shots of Cersei and Jon, other than that Jon almost certainly doesn’t hold a grudge against Olly for killing Ygritte. But it’s nice to see them all the same.
Overall, it’s not much, but I’m very happy with what we got to see here. Now looking froward even more to the trailer in January.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udGDBSJMElI
Here is a compilation of all the Yearender Game of Thrones clips for convenience.
OtherAndrew,
Indeed. I am vindicated!
ABYSS! ABYSS! Wherefore art, thou Abyss! You hero among mortals, I have need of yer gifs!
Greenjones,
On it. đ
Can’t really glean much from those shots, unlike last year. Just face shots of principal cast. Gonna be a long wait to that trailer this year.
Is that the Ygritte killer kid (grown-up more) standing behind Jon? Maybe the idea of his casting/continuing is old news…
It’s him. And he’s a good plot device to be honest.
Looks like someone loaned Jon bran’s wig from last year.
Ironborn,
O.K. I’ll bite! đ A good plot device to continue which plot?
I don’t think I minded him the first time around – being sullied, I saw his secondary purpose the second he showed up… but why keep him? To give Jon an opportunity to look at him and reminisce all broody? đ
Yeah, we knew Brenock O’Connor was filming months ago so it’s not a surprise Olly is there.
They can swap Olly in for Satin, in terms of role. Jon’s got to have someone around, since Pyp and Grenn are dead, and
Sue the Fury,
*sniff* I miss Satin. I DO hope we see someone leave quite promptly. So if I can pretend that more Olly means less you-know-who on the wall that would be lovely…
Edited post because spoiler tags aren’t working for me. Sorry!
Olly has always seemed like a replacement for Satin. Honestly it’s an upgrade I think. Only has more backstory than Satin. He needs to stay around. Once
Gren and Pyp are gone Satin is like the 2nd most frequent character for Jon to interact with after Edd. I’m glad he’s sticking around or
I never doubted you!!!
Turncloak,
Yeah… you’re right. *sigh* Not sure why we needed to lose all the gravitas out of that scene in the first place… I think Olly would have more secret feelings
Done with the “gifing” of the new stuff. đ
Low-Res:
Arya
Cersei
Jon
Tyrion
High-Res (only works with Firefox out of the box)
Arya
Cersei
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Greenjones,
Done. The comment is awaiting moderation. đ
why isn’t Amanda Peet a cast in Game of Thrones?
since she’s David Benioff’s “moon of my life”…
Well, she is the #1 protagonist of the story, after all.
Lady Wolfsbane,
But what role did
have in that scene in the book? I don’t recall him being there at all.
FINALLY!! Trailer, here we come! Hope you-all are right about Olly. Would love to see
storyline developed for the show.
Turncloak,
Except that that character wasn’t involved in that scene!
Just looking it up, Jon sent Satin away to lead a messenger to warm quarters a few pages before. Satin might have returned by then: but he does not appear in the narrative after that.
Ashara D,
Sam’s storyline probably will be there. However, the plot line probably will be very different: I really doubt that
) while
One of the storylines that I’m looking forward to most in Season 5 is Aemon Targaryen’s. The actor that plays him, Peter Vaughn, as a 102 year old maester, is actually 93 years old! I really hope that any scenes with him hew closely to the book material–in my opinion some of G.R.R.M.’s best writing in the series. We’ll see…
Meanwhile, it’s cool to see Arya make landfall. Maisie finally gets some new costumes shortly afterward. The old costume must have been rather pungent after four seasons đ
I was going to say, Satin never stabs Jon, but does act as his stewart after Jon sends Edd Tollet away to man one of the castles. Olly can also act as some interaction to Shireen and be the face to show distraught
Pretty uninteresting, especially compared to last year’s.
Morna the Witch,
They are going to have to develop an “opposition” to Jon in order to communicate the story. It does not need to be more than a “Greek Chorus”: the same faces shown in multiple weeks; indeed, it would probably hurt the show if they tried to develop it much beyond that. That will probably be what they use in the end.
Turncloak, Lady Wolfsbane, Wimsey and others:
But in all seriousness, I do hope the wildling’s rationale for coming to the wall is significantly identified (via Mance?) and there is a difference established between the average wildling/giant cause and the damn show!Thenns. (It still pisses me off that the show!Thenns aren’t the more advanced, civilized ones).
Otherwise, if the wildling cause (and WW threat) is not suitably differentiated/discussed and they are all simply considered savages, then Jon’s sympathy for their cause must be really questioned and take a very different (simpler) direction than assumed from what we have read in ADwD.
Maybe integrate the Hardhome horror more directly?
But first Jon must deal with Stannis and Mel and become LC. I wonder if he’ll be jailed for treason first, or has that already been dealt with via Aemon last season?
I was watching Tell Tales GoT, I wonder if any of the characters will make a brief cameo in season five.
Obviously Mira Forrester already has, she probably was one of the two handmaidens with Margaery at the orphanage in season 3. Notice how they made her character look similar to the extra and also just like in the Tell Tales story the other handmaid Sera looks like the other from the orphanage scene, at least TT is attempting to stay consistent.
Hodor’s Bastard,
I wouldn’t expect Olly to join the “Nationalists”! (Unthinking traditionalists is what I would call them: and although nationalists tend to be unthinking traditionalists, not all unthinking traditionalists are nationalists!)
As for the effect of the Thenns, that actually can work to the story’s advantage. Here and elsewhere, the politics of trying to create alliances among enemies is important. Making the Thenns unlikable (and remember that Jon detested the Thenn leader in the book, too!) will communicate this more obviously to the audience.
Morna the Witch,
spoiler tag ain’t that hard to use…
Wimsey,
Really? Styr was a tough “enemy” commander on a mission but I didn’t read him as a detestable person. I guess I never thought Jon really had truly negative feelings for Styr in ASoS before Styr perished during the CB attack. Styr, like his son and Val, could have been handled well, had he survived (like they are doing with Tormund, I guess). I just don’t think the show!Thenns can be dealt with at all….certainly they won’t willingly let them roam around the Gift munching on northerners. Then again, the ice river clans are a part of Mance’s army….maybe they have a sweet side, idk.
Old Valyria
Please remind me of the new code? I couldn’t find it đ
Or is it the same old one?
And sorry.
Whimsey and Turncloak
Jon has taken Olly under his wing, so I doubt Olly would suddenly turn against him. Bowen Marsh has been cast. Just wondering why he is only appearing in three episodes. Plus, there’s Yarwick, Thorne and Slynt too.
And why would the Wall suddenly be boring without, um, Sam? With team Dragonstone there and the build-up this has to the battle of Winterfell, more WW, as well as the build-up to FTW, I am really looking forward to the Wall story.
Morna the Witch,
Yes, between Stannis, Davos, Mel, Shireen, Sam, Aemon,
Since we got nothing from the sight, it feels good to have these scenes đ
No, Jon/Dany/Tyrion are all three the #1 protagonists, and Arya/Sansa/Bran to a little bit lesser extent.
There isn’t one THE main character in the story.
Nothing was interesting except Tyrion’s new look, can’t wait for more dark Dinklage!
Last year we had the champion of Meereen, a glimpse of the wedding, Sansa in the Eyrie, Jaime with a new haircut and Tyrion in shackles
This year we got Arya with the same old clothes, Jon and Olly at the wall doing nothing and Cersei walking around with the same dress she weared in Season 4.
But still, that shot of Tyrion was cool.
Arya is from Episode 1. (100% sure)
Jon is from Episode 1 or 2 because he don’t have a new costume
Tyrion is from Episode 3, 4 or 5.
Cersei is probably from Episode 1 when she heard that Tywin is dead
Yeah nothing exciting here…….I don’t even want to watch it again, 2 times was more than enough.
Abyss,
Abyss,
Awesome! Great work as per usual!
How does one permalink on WOTW though?
Wimsey,
Won’t they used the Thenns as the really savage ones killing the NW members north of the wall (the reaper I think it was) while Mance and a captive Tormund would be representative of the “moderate” Wildlings?
Doubt they would do the Karstark/Thenn plot line
Abyss, a bit offtopic, but would you mind making some gifs of the Westworld footage shown from 2:06 and onwards?
On the completely unrelated note, I’ll miss Boardwalk Empire.
Morna the Witch,
“Jon has taken Olly under his wing, so I doubt
Messy Justin Massey,
The most important characters according to HBO are Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime, Jon, Dany, Sansa and Arya. That is why HBO decided to give them significant raises when they negotiated their contracts for the next 3 seasons and why they probably won’t be killed off until the last episodes. As much as I’d like to think that they consider Bran a crucial character, he is about to miss a whole season, and the excuse of them not having enough material for him doesn’t work since Sansa is in the same situation and yet Sophie Turner filmed quite a lot for S5. So IMO, those mentioned above are the only ones HBO cares about.
Really – what is the deal with Jon’s hair!?
Morna the Witch,
Its “spoiler” comment “/spoiler” with brackets, not quotes (check the top of the comments)
Patchy Face,
This disturbs me deeply.
So as Tyrion’s journey becomes darker, his hair becomes lighter! He’s starting to look more like book!Tyrion.
Still think all four shots are from ep1.
That trailer didn’t do much for me except remind me why I’m glad True Blood was finally put out of it’s misery and get me curious about Westworld. GoT-wise, it’s pretty much as you were.
Hodor’s Bastard, whimsey, Morna the Witch etc…,,
Sorry – Didn’t mean to imply that Satin was
But if Olly is around and part of “for the watch” I do think he’d add a different note to the attack. I mean as a reader I was 100% all for saving the wildlings when Jon said it. It was when he said he was going to go SOUTH that I stopped reading the book and stared at it funny and wanted to stab Jon in the book myself whispering “You don’t know everything you still know nothing Jon Snow!” If Olly is involved… it will seem to be secretly about being against helping wildlings, and not about the actual dumbass Pink Letter stuff…
Uh oh… what if they CUT the Pink Letter stuff! What if it IS all about helping the wildlings! Oh then Jon wouldn’t really deserve to be stabbed at all,
and that would REALLY change the scene…
I’m enclined to think that as well, but the editing isnt done and with scenes moving forward or backwards, I think these four shots will end up between episode 1 and 2…
Speaking of Yearender trailers, last year’s showed Sansa without the snow CG’d in. That led me to this Spring preview and at 15 seconds in there’s a scene with Sansa that I don’t remember from Season 4. I assume it was cut, so I’m curious at what part it happens â though I bet it comes after her first run in with Lysa.
There was another scene in the “Bastards of Westeros” video where Cersei tells Ellaria at the wedding that she doesn’t know “what to call” her, to which Ellaria responds, “Ellaria works for everyone else.” Zing.
Aaaaaanyway, just came up because I was wondering if stuff will be CG’d in behind Arya for that arrival scene.
Hodor’s Bastard,
The Arya shot is most definitely from 501 and the Cersei one probably is too but the Tyrion shot is more likely from 503.
This picture, which is basically him as seen in the yearender shot, emerged online at around the time that Mishael Lopes Cardozo shot in NI as the brothel guard (or in IMHO he’s actually the Volantene Sellsword from the casting call). Either way we know he appears in ep. 503, making it all the more likely that that Tyrion shot does too.
Greenjones,
Wow…I missed all those details. It is so cool that you are on top of that stuff. I just got the impression that he was leaving the ship with that shot. But I guess Tyrion would need to get his hair done first before that shot, and unless Varys carries a “Just for Men” pack with him, that probably isn’t happening until after meeting with Illyrio.
Whether you or I detest Styr in the book is not too important: what is important is that Jon detested Styr: he thinks that to himself several times. So, the show really needed to make this obvious. Again, different media, different requirements!
(That the Thenns did their own bronze forging etc., on the other hand, is sort of a trivial point that does not affect the story or the plot at all; Martin does use that as a stepping stone for
: but as the show won’t be doing that, it that becomes more of a lodestone than a stepping stone.
1a, 1b, 1c! I agree that Dany & Jon represent the top tier, and that Tyrion has basically crept into that top tier. Arya, Sansa & Bran are in a second tier, although they still qualify as primary protagonists. I would include Theon on that list, too, along with Jaime, Cersei and Brienne: although perhaps they should be a third tier after the Stark progeny. This is just a story with multiple primary protagonists: but not all of them are equal.
And then, of course, we have yet another tier of protagonists in Davos, Sam, etc.
Lady Wolfsbane,
Given that the whole idea of Olly
stems from someone misremembering what a book character that Olly is (or even just might be) replacing did, we probably should not consider it a very plausible idea in the show!
Also,
As it stands, they have a legitimate sociopolitical drama that echoes recent (and commonly replayed) sociopolitical events in reality. One side holds a “they are with us or they are against us” view and cannot shake that no matter how much evidence they get that Enemy A and Enemy B hate each other as much (or more) than they hate you. (In this case, Walkers probably recognize no distinction among the Wildlings and the Westerosians, but the Wildlings certainly distinguish between the Walkiers and the Westerosians.) This probably is why Hodor’s Bastard was calling it a Nationalist view: people prone to looking at the world like this often are nationalists. Remember, Bowen flat out says that what Jon is doing qualifies as treason.
Jon takes the view that Enemy B (the Wildlings) is a much lesser threat than Enemy A (the Walkers): and that the Wildlings can be used to fight the Walkers. (Stannis takes the same view.)
Add to this the fact that Stannis is there, and that some of the Watch (such as Bowen) accept that Tommen is the rightful King and think that Stannis is a lying usurper, and have this follow on a contended election for the LC, and the audience has everything that they need to understand why Bowen et al. go from Greek Chorus to Roman Senate on Jon! (Sorry, couldn’t resistâŚ.)
Ghost’s Lunch,
Yeah, I doubt that plot line remains: but it is one of those traits that helps in the literary water but is detrimental on the cinematic land.
And I suspect that you are right about how they will use the Thenns. Mance made it clear that everyone hates them two years ago, and Tormund’s discomfort at their presence was pretty obvious. It shouldn’t be tough to make the audience understand that the Wildlings are like the Westerosians: you’ve got Starks and Baratheons, but you’ve also got Lannisters and Freys. That adds to the political drama in the book, and that is the sort that is easily translated to the screen.
Hodor’s Bastard,
I’d say that’s the most likely context for the Cersei clip. We’ll probably see that shot shortly after the opening credits end.
Wimsey,
Hmmm.. I do like all your reasoning. But for me I still see the reason that the Watch
The way they fight the enemy – with or without the widlings is a lovely debate but shouldn’t and doesn’t come into the equation. Abandoning the wall is 100% the issue. Maybe instead of the Pink Letter… he suggests leaving the wall and rescuing Stannis?
Lady Wolfsbane,
Except that in the books
This also will be important in Winter. I would be surprised if Bowen et al. are still alive by the time that Jon recovers: if the Wildlings don’t kill them, then NW members loyal to Jon will. Where Stannis’ men will fall is anybody’s guess: they’ve not been thrilled with Jon, and a giant just killed one of their men, but Bowen et al. have been actively hostile towards them and their cause. Of course, there is a very real chance that the NW will be so decimated by this civil war (which seems unavoidable at this pint) that it won’t be much of a factor anymore.
On that note, that was one part of the book that confused me:
No new info for GoT but did I see a shot of Peter Capaldi on Veep? Is Malcolm Tucker crossing over? OMFG!! I know Anna Chlumsky is not playing the same character she played on In The Loop, but still, Malcolm F*ckity Tucker, this is huge people.
maester_blaster,
I think that you saw Hugh Laurie! (Although it’s possible that both could be there.) Capaldi is rather busy playing the Doctor these days.
maester_blaster,
That was Hugh Laurie (“House”). They kinda look alike, but… not really.
Luka Nieto,
Dammit, I watched it again and of course that’s Hugh Laurie, wishful thinking. Maybe there will be a new foul mouthed British political wonk? Probably not on veep, Laurie can do the accent so probably a foul mouthed American wonk like all the other characters on the show. It’s just so much funnier to hear a vicious bollocking in a Scottish accent. Still a good show, now give me something from GoT I can inaccurately speculate on.
This end of year thing was much more impactful than those “visions”;
Really stoked about Arya, the Wall, and Cersei; pretty uninvested in Dorne and Dany: GoT 90210.
If you click on your reply link to my gif post you get the URL https://watchersonthewall.com/hbo-yearender-shares-glimpse-game-thrones-season-5/#comment-192766, that’s the permalink. đ
Carne,
Sure. The “GIFs” are high-res APNGs, actually, so the best browser to watch them is Firefox.
Cowboy
Riding
Room
Carne,
Done. đ The comment is awaiting moderation.
Abyss,
Thanks. I’ve put the link in my favourites and will meditate on those gifs in the coming weeks.
Wimsey,
Yep – I believe it – Satin and Grenn and Satin wouldn’t have participated and would have supported Jon. But they would have been as wrong as Jon. đ
The few seconds of GoT was cool and all, but damn, those Westworld shots have me intrigued…
Screw GOT it’s all about that awesome Westworld footage.
Lady Wolfsbane,
Wait: why would they be wrong? Really, it’s the other party that is very much in the wrong: they’ve forgotten what the Watch is supposed to do, and they’ve just ignored what is essentially a declaration of war against the Wall! (I doubt that they will live to see their folly:
blinkonce,
Maybe…. Just maybe, have you stopped and think that Just MAYBE there’s more material to work with Sansa rather than Bran who will just be stuck with a tree?!?!? I know bran will play a major role towards the end so let’s save that for that.
Al Swearengen,
Cool story. Next…
Wimsey,
Hehehe, we do disagree on that.
“Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. ”
Lady Wolfsbane,
On what are we disagreeing? That most of the Watch is on Jon’s side? The book suggests
Or about Bowen et al. being in very dire straits? Remember, Ramsay effectively
Moreover, they have to realize that is what it is because, for the most part, they know that they cannot comply: several of Ramsay’s demands cannot be met, which means that everyone there knows that Ramsay is gunning for them. (Bowen et al. might think that they will comply: but they have a slight tactical problem; more probably, they didn’t think that far in advance, and just accelerated their plan upon deciding that the window for doing so was about to close.)
Incidentally,
Wimsey,
He uses the wildling term “crows” for one.
The letter sounds like a bloody poem when you read it out loud.
A lot of the information in it is deliberately wrong.
Who benefits?
BTW y’all the Jon shot is definitely this passage from Jon XI in ASOS:
âItâs too heavy,â the Oldtown boy complained. âItâs as heavy as it needs to be to stop a sword,â Jon said. âNow get it up.â He stepped forward, slashing. Satin jerked the shield up in time to catch the sword on its rim, and swung his own blade at Jonâs ribs. âGood,â Jon said, when he felt the impact on his own shield. âThat was good. But you need to put your body into it. Get your weight behind the steel and youâll do more damage than with arm strength alone. Come, try it again, drive at me, but keep the shield up or Iâll ring your head like a bell…â
Instead Satin took a step backward and raised his visor. âJon,â he said, in an anxious voice.
When he turned, she was standing behind him, with half a dozen queenâs men around her. Small wonder the yard grew so quiet. He had glimpsed Melisandre at her nightfires, and coming and going about the castle, but never so close. Sheâs beautiful, he thought… but there was something more than a little unsettling about red eyes. âmy lady.â’
EDIT: It’s not REALLY a spoiler but I tagged it anyways in case some might consider it one…
Wimsey,
I don’t subscribe to this theory exactly.. but it’s a fab summation of why the heck Jon should have been suspicious of the letter at the very least… and if you’re going to commit treason to the Watch and drag everyone else along with you… well – I can’t think of ANY acceptable reason other than the Others below the wall myself… Maybe the Pink Letter was magicked?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwcuRwod0Xg
Although… I forgive Jon now that he’s dead! He’s paid for his horrible lapse of judgement…
ctid,
2) The only flat-out lie is that Ramsey has Lightbringer. Remember, they think that it is Stannis’ army outside of the gate. So, after the Bolton alliance defeats that army (and I take the letter as pretty strong evidence that this happens), he can gamble that word of the defeat will precede anyone else finding Stannis or his sword.
3) It doesn’t read like a poem at all to me: it reads like ramblings! There really is no meter to it.
4) Ramsay benefits immensely if these demands are met for one other reason: that gives him the last living male descendant of Ned Stark among other things. Legitimized or not, the threat of Jon Stark would be a huge one to the Boltons. The rest are worth a pretty ransom from Kings Landing, too.
Mance doesn’t really beneft much from this other than his son and Val. Indeed, Mance definitely would NOT benefit from having Melisandre around, as he would have some inkling what she is capable of doing; he would not want her around, never mind demand Mel. He also would know that there is no way that Jon could surrender her: he’d ask for her only if he really wanted Jon or the Night Watch. (Mance would have to know that much of the Night Watch would accompany Jon out of loyalty: Jon might not realize his own charisma, but Mance certainly would have seen what Mel sees.) Ramsey, on the other hand, would find it impossible to accept that any woman is a threat to him: if anything, then he probably thinks that she’d just be a bit more good sport.
Mance also would know that Jon would have very little power to surrender Selyse or Shireen, and that they would not permit Val to be surrendered. Now, Val he might want: but the Queen and the Princess would be of little use to him, save perhaps to bargain for his son: but the son was already part of the deal.
Greenjones,
That scene could be the one we are seeing, but it also could be any number of other scenes.
Lady Wolfsbane: I think that Jon took a suspicious letter with insults from a madman (at best) or a forger or maybe a combination of both
2) Yes, Ramsay is a madman, and Jon probably is aware of that. Ramsay is also a madman with an army. There are few things more dangerous than a madman with an army. Now, as Lord Commander, Jon’s duty is to defend the Wall. Of course, they had been thinking of defending it from attack from the North: but they didn’t plan on Ramsay. Moreover, it is not as if Jon can comply with the demands: I mean, never mind that Jon doesn’t have Arya: who the hell is Reek?!?!? Jon has to assume that Ramsay is going to attack the Wall if Jon does not go to meet him.
Lady Wolfsbane: and encouraged the entire bloody wall to rebel.
Actually, Jon didn’t really that: Ramsay did. What Jon did do is inform the Watch (and Wildlings, Norhtmen and Queens Men) that he could not accompany them to Hardhome: and that was going to demand explanation. He then informed them that he personally had just gotten a declaration of war that included them if he didn’t comply. He was going to do the honorable thing, at least insofar as his then conflicted vows would permit: he was going out to meet Ramsay. He asked if anyone would join him, but he didn’t demand it of them. Moreover, the majority of the people there are Wildlings and Northment: they are under no obligations.
This is classic Martin. On one hand, Jon is breaking his vows by leaving the Wall. On the other hand, Jon is keeping his vows by defending the Wall against a declared enemy. Whichever choice Jon makes, he is breaking a vow. (This is Jaime’s litany revisited.)
As for the rest of the Watch, many of the individuals would see this the same way. The vows never considered the idea that attack would come from the south. Moreover, if the Night Watch is to be attacked – and as it is impossible for the Night Watch to comply with the terms of the letter, they are going to be attacked – then they cannot wait around there. You do far better in an open field than in an undefended position. Yes, they vow to not get involved in Westerosi conflicts: but if some Westerosians violate the terms of that vow (they are supposed to leave the Watch alone), then keeping that vow breaks other vows.
Lady Wolfsbane: and if youâre going to commit treason to the Watch and drag everyone else along with you⌠well â I canât think of ANY acceptable reason other than the Others below the wall myself⌠Maybe the Pink Letter was magicked?
The Night Watch is supposed to defend the realms of men. They cannot do that if they let an enemy from Westeros kill them. It’s “treason” to not respond to this in some way. And as a far more dangerous enemy is on the other side of the Wall, the greater “treason” is to let Ramsay march up and kill them all. Remember, the Lords of Westeros are supposed to leave the men of the Watch alone: and Ramsay has just declared that he’s going to violate that. I think that is a damn acceptable reason for their actions. Look at it this way: if two countries sign a peace treaty, and then one country attacks the other, then the second country is technically in violation of that treaty when they fight back: but does anybody ever think of it that way?
As for magic, there is no indication that Ramsay’s group includes any wizards or the like. The reasoning is simple: kill or be killed.
Lady Wolfsbane: Although⌠I forgive Jon now that heâs dead! Heâs paid for his horrible lapse of judgementâŚ
1) Jon’s probably not dead: Melisandre will probably save him.
2) What lapse in judgement? Jon has several bad choices in front of him. He probably made the best decision possible.
3) If you think that this is why they tried to assassinate Jon, then I think that you are mistaken. The assassination almost certainly was planned before this: probably from the time that Bowen decided that it was treason for them to let the Wildlings past the Walls. Again, it’s a conflict of vows: Jon (like Mormant and Sam) recognizes that the Wall is to defend humans against the Others; Bowen clearly views the Others as a more abstract threat. If you take Jon’s view, then it is wrong to do it any other way. We cannot accuse Jon of being selfish about this: there is nothing in it for him.
Now, the assassination is very short-sighted: clearly Bowen et al. are not thinking beyond the deed in terms of the reprecussions. Bowen’s inability to remember that todays dead Wildlings (huzzah!!!) are tomorrows fighting Wights (uh ohâŚ) shows an interesting failing in the man: he can count grain and worry about how long he can feed people, but he cannot see the next move in a chess game. A faction of the Watch cannot take on the rest of the Watch, the Wildlings, the Northmen and the Queen’s Men: but Bowen still pursues this tactic, anyway! It’s a tactic without strategy. (I am curious as to whether any of Bowen’s people will still be alive once Jon wakes up, and who will make the bigger mess of them: the Watch, the Northmen, the Wildlings or Melisandre!)
Here is what I cannot guess: what do you think that Jon should have done? Any other choice that I can see would lead to worse outcomes and therefore a greater deriliction of duty.
Ugh. For some reason, I could not make my post obey the spoiler tags. Sorry about that.
Wimsey,
I had a rough time adding the spoiler tags too…I just did the whole thing…that was easiest.
Dame Pasty,
I tried that, but it choked on the quotes. I tried rewriting those by hand quickly, but it didn’t workâŚ.. đ
Dame Pasty,
Can we spoiler tag in different festive colors instead of grey? I want to create an christmas tree of shaded comments, ornamented with a few of Wimsey’s literary observations and Rygar’s penis shout-outs.
No easy way to do this without changing the master stylesheet and I REALLY don’t want to touch that. If I screwed things up and we lose spoiler codes again, I’d be pulling what’s left of my hair out over Christmas. Sorry!
Dame Pasty,
Thanks! My guess is that nesting formatting within formatting left some bracket unbalanced.
(Insert jokes about “unbalanced” and me here at your leisure: you all get a free by for Zagmuk! :))
Wimsey,
Humour me here please about it reading like a poem; read it out loud using the word bastard as a rhythmic device. It kind of does or maybe I’m just imagining it.
* Regarding who benefits, your points are sound as to how Ramsey would benefit but surely Ramsey would realise that his demands would be completely refused. He’s violating watch neutrality. I think Mance benefits considerably by bringing the watch (+ Wildlings) south which he knows the letter will.
And just to add, I don’t subscribe to the Mance = Pink letter theory, I’ll just say that there is a coherent argument for it, it’s not pie in the sky.
ctid,
Dame Pasty,
You actually responded to my silliness. đ XSLT is so fun…
Wimsey,
Wow, thanks so much for the way more coherent reply than I can respond in kind to (especially after that Saki I just had). That was fabulous, really. I ADORE how we can take 4 seconds of preview (1 second really) and entertain ourselves for days off of it.
I just very much believe that Jon thinking that the Watch should leave the Wall and go SOUTH is a mistake. A BIG one. Not the best of bad choices, but a decision made in emotion and youth and affection for Arya. The affection for Arya may be 100% unconscious, but it’s still there and Jon was affected by it. I’m glad that he’s decision was stopped – whatever the manner, and however temporarily. Ramsey is full of it and he’s not coming to attack the Wall he’s full of crap just trying to antagonize. A bit of Picard and a little less Kirk would have gone a long way.
I’m perfectly happy if a protagonist, and a character I like, makes mistakes. It doesn’t change if I like them, and I like Jon. And yes, I think he’ll come back somehow.. but not the same Jon. And that’s GOOD. It’s the one thing about Martin I worship… his characters have character and evolve and change and I don’t predict them like so many books I’ve read…
ctid,
Hodor’s Bastard,
Lady Wolfsbane,
Ah, many responses: (and hopefully the spoiler tag works this time!)
2. I don’t think that Mance should want the Watch to leave the Wall. Mance knows even better than does Jon what the real threat is: the Others. Mance also knows that the defense of the Wall is vital to this: otherwise, the free folk fleeing south is almost moot. Ramsay, on the other hand, knows nothing of this.
3. Mance’s part of the collaboration is probably that of informer, and probably after Ramsay flayed the information out of him. Mance is a strong individual, but this isn’t his fight, and some of the key information (Melisandre, Mance’s son, Val) are things that he would have spilled quickly because those are the things being used to extort Mance’s complicity in the “rescue Arya” plot.
4. Ramsay surely knows that his demands will be refused. Ramsay doesn’t care: he’s itching for the fight. There are two thing that we have to remember. One, Ramsay is a psychopath. Psychopaths are not rational. Ramsay might know that he is violating the Watch’s neutrality with this declaration: but he does not care. (Similar things have come up in the past: only his father has restrained him then!) Two, Ramsay Bolton is heir to Lord of the North right now. Jon Stark would be the heir to the lord his family has displaced. Hence the emphasis on Bolton and Snow: and remember how Theon emphasizes that this is very important to Ramsay. We have evidence that Ramsay killed Roose’s son; killing Jon represents much the same thing: insofar as Ramsay knows, this would take away any rival to something he now views as a possession.
5. Ramsay knows about Mance because Abel’s washerwomen were killed or captured: and therefore Mance was going to get captured. From there, it’s not too tough to figure out how Ramsay got all of this information.
6. I don’t think that Jon wanted the Watch to march south. Instead, I think that he wants most of them to relieve Hardhome. That is what he directs them to do. Of course, most of them are riled up. One thing about Jon Snow that he himself does not realize is that he is an extremely charismatic individual. Moreover, we have to remember basic human psychology. It is one thing for Men of the Watch to debate whether the Wildlings or Stannis’ people should be there. It is entirely another thing for a third party to come in and tell them what to do. If they are going to send away Selyse or Shireen, then they are going to do it: they will not do it under extortion!
7. This is really critical. Jon has ZERO reason to think that Ramsay is full of it. Indeed, he would be a fool to do so. If Jon has learned anything about Ramsay (and as Lord Commander and Ned Stark’s “son,” he should know a few things about most of the Northern Lords), then he has to know that this is the sort of insanely violent thing that Ramsay would do. Moreover, we the readers shouldn’t think this: this is not an idle threat from Ramsay. Ramsay is a psychopath, and many psychopaths are extremely jealous of their possessions: including people. We’ve seen that in Ramsay in his possession of Reek and fArya. Ramsay probably knows that they were sent north from Northmen captured outside of Winterfell in what he assumes is
8. The assassination attempt probably was in the works for a while. Bowen has stated, plainly or tacitly, that what Jon is doing is treason in multiple ways: 1) resettling Wildlings south of the Wall; 2) giving Wildlings former NW holdings; 3) giving aid and comfort to Stannis. They probably would have wanted to do this before Jon left for Hardhome, and then seek to countermand this endeavor. (Bowen simply cannot comprehend that dead wildlings will be part of the army used against him, after all.) However, once Jon alters this plan, it becomes then or never. (Keep in mind that it’s not clear that it’s anybody other than Bowen’s little clique doing this: none of Othell’s builders are mentioned as being part of the stabbing.)
9. Did Jon err in his judgement? If I were in his shoes, then I would assume that Ramsay intends to attack. It would be in keeping not just with what we have read about Ramsay, but with what other people seem to think Ramsay is like, and thus what I should know if I’m Jon Snow. Now, the Wall needs to be defended against the Others: however, the Watch cannot do so if Ramsay’s people are wearing their skins as cloaks. I would not worry about my vow about staying out of the affairs of Westeros anymore: I have judged that Ramsay is intent on violating his part of it and that he is marching north as soon as he learns that I am not complying. After all, I cannot comply: I don’t have Arya, I don’t know who Reek is, and it’s more than my life is worth to try to surrender Val, Mance’s son or Melisandre. (Obviously, I’d love the idea of sending her away because if I’m Jon Snow, then I’m a bit unsettled by Mel.) Now, I do offer to go alone: the Wall must be defended, after all, and I do realize that we are skirting a fine line with our vows because nobody allowed for the possibility that we would need to defend ourselves against Westeros when we made those vows. However, I do want to take people with me because Ramsay is going to attack the Wall to get Arya and this Reek person (Dog? I’ve heard that Ramsay has a thing about dogs) once/if he gets past me: so, really, it is vital that I stop him now.
Do I like this decision? No. Are all my other possible choices (all of which result in Ramsay’s army assaulting Castle Black) are worse. Because I don’t buy for one second that Ramsay isn’t going to try to carry out his threat, and I don’t know that he’s not in a position to do so.
So, my call is that Jon has made the best possible choices out of a host of lousy choices. The big key is that I reject the idea that Ramsay is full of it: he’s not.
Wimsey,
But… take Arya out of the equation take the fact that it’s Winterfell and Jon’s pride out of the equation… why go south?
Jon didn’t send for aid – or inform about how bats%$* crazy Ramsey is to anyone, or do anything other than immediately announce he was as their leader going to abandon the Wall… and let others follow him, draining the Watch away from the most important battle
Lady Wolfsbane,
Of course, what Jon does not know (and what Ramsay does not know either) is that Stannis is still between them. Now, I don’t know what is going to happen when Jon wakes up: but the Theon WoW chapter suggests that Ramsay’s army already is heading north. My read is that he (Ramsay) mistakenly thought that they defeated Stannis’ main army outside of Winterfell. That actually should be interesting: although Stannis is dismissive of Ramsay, Theon is correct that he (Stannis) really should be concerned. I don’t doubt that Stannis will win (and perhaps begin whittling down plot lines!) We will see. Well, those of us who live long enoughâŚ.
Wimsey,