It’s the moment we’ve all been eagerly anticipating – HBO has finally given us information about the first few episodes this season! We’ve been waiting patiently (or rather, impatiently), so without further ado here they are in all their glory.
Episode #61: “Dragonstone”
Debut: SUNDAY, JULY 16 (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET/PT)
Jon (Kit Harington) organizes the defense of the North. Cersei (Lena Headey) tries to even the odds. Daenerys (Emilia Clarke) comes home.
Written for television by David Benioff & D. B. Weiss; directed by Jeremy Podeswa.
Episode #62: “Stormborn”
Debut: SUNDAY, JULY 23 (9:00-10:00 p.m.)
Daenerys (Emilia Clarke) receives an unexpected visitor. Jon (Kit Harington) faces a revolt. Tyrion (Peter Dinklage) plans the conquest of Westeros.
Written for television by Bryan Cogman; directed by Mark Mylod.
Episode #63: “The Queen’s Justice”
Debut: SUNDAY, JULY 30 (9:00-10:00 p.m.)
Daenerys (Emilia Clarke) holds court. Cersei (Lena Headey) returns a gift. Jaime (Nikolaj Coster-Waldau) learns from his mistakes.
Written for television by David Benioff & D. B. Weiss; directed by Mark Mylod.
From HBO:
Daenerys Targaryen has finally set sail for Westeros with her armies, dragons and new Hand of the Queen, Tyrion Lannister. Jon Snow has been named King in the North after defeating Ramsay Bolton in the Battle of the Bastards and returning Winterfell to House Stark. In King’s Landing, Cersei Lannister has seized the Iron Throne by incinerating the High Sparrow, his followers and her rivals in the Sept of Baelor. But as old alliances fracture and new ones emerge, an army of dead men marches on the Wall, threatening to end the game of thrones forever.
Returning series regulars on GAME OF THRONES this season include: Emmy® and Golden Globe winner Peter Dinklage (Tyrion Lannister), Nikolaj Coster-Waldau (Jaime Lannister), Lena Headey (Cersei Lannister), Emilia Clarke (Daenerys Targaryen), Aidan Gillen (Petyr “Littlefinger” Baelish), Kit Harington (Jon Snow), Diana Rigg (Lady Olenna Tyrell), Sophie Turner (Sansa Stark) and Maisie Williams (Arya Stark).
Additional returning series regulars this season include: Alfie Allen (Theon Greyjoy), John Bradley (Samwell Tarly), Gwendoline Christie (Brienne of Tarth), Liam Cunningham (Davos Seaworth), Nathalie Emmanuel (Missandei), Jerome Flynn (Bronn), Iain Glen (Jorah Mormont), Isaac Hempstead Wright (Bran Stark), Conleth Hill (Varys), Kristofer Hivju (Tormund Giantsbane), Hannah Murray (Gilly), Carice van Houten (Melisandre), Indira Varma (Ellaria Sand), Pilou Asbaek (Euron Greyjoy), Rory McCann (Sandor “The Hound” Clegane) and Richard Dormer (Beric Dondarrion).
New cast members for the seventh season include: Jim Broadbent, Tom Hopper, Megan Parkinson and Ed Sheeran.
What do you think? The descriptions are vague as always, but feel free to speculate away in the comments!
Chicken and Rice!!
HelloThere,
No vegetables?
I think Hill is writing E5 and the rest is written by D&D.
AHHH SO MUCH DANY MY HYPE METER IS MAXIMAL!!
My head exploded!!!!!!!
I AM SO EXCITEDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!
OMGGGG
Who is revolting against JON???????
And Dany Dany Dany, yaaaaasss Queen!!!!
I have no idea what to expect.
Holy &*(2890
All related to Dany!
The second one maybe also implies Euron and the third one Cersei.
Love them! 🙂
Unexpected visitor could be Melisandre? We see her in the trailer.
I dont think Cersei’s gift is something good.
Queenofthrones,
Hypus Maximus!
I AM SO HYPED!!!
So much battle of queens 🙂
Queenofthrones,
RIGHT??????????????????
*faints*
Personally, I’m quite annoyed that they’re all related to Dany. She’s not the only GoT character.
I love this uncertainty!!! 😀
Lord Parramandas,
The Queens Justice doesn’t have to relate to Dany
But honestly, Dany invading the 7 kingdoms is the driving force of this season… Its going to be the main event by which most plot threads are built from.
Dee Stark,
Starts with an ”L” and ends with ”ittlefinger”.
Boring titles, but at this point I’m just happy Jack finally got his wish lol.
“Jon (Kit Harington) organizes the defense of the North.” – King of anticipation! My procrastinating ass could never.
“Jon (Kit Harington) faces a revolt.” – Lol yeah sure. “Just elected a king… let’s go revolt now!111”
“Tyrion (Peter Dinklage) plans the conquest of Westeros.” – lol Dragonbringer is not going to like this. Where is he/she btw? Hope he/she is ok.
“Cersei (Lena Headey) returns a gift.” – Lmao Queen of payments! Yaaas!
“Jaime (Nikolaj Coster-Waldau) learns from his mistakes.” – Truly, a Christmas miracle is upon us.
This will hopefully end certain people’s constant paranoid yammering.
My best guess for episode two was “Stormborn”! “Dragonstone” is obvious but somehow I didn’t consider it, and “The Queen’s Justice” is a really nice title. I had suggestions in the same vein, but not that one in particular.
Dany may be the most obvious interpretation, but it’s easy to see how the second and third titles may relate to other characters 😉
HelloThere,
As it should, to be honest!!! EF YA Lol.
A Dornish Tyrell,
I knowwww, i’m excited and scared and I cannot believe I HAVE A WEEK-ish LEFT
Still, it really bothers me… she’s not the only main character in the show.
Okay. Ill calm down now.
r-hard,
“Revolt” has a different connotation to it than just a single person scheming…
Maybe the knights of the vale aren’t with him entirely yet?
Wow, great news. All eyes on Dany!
Luka Nieto,
Given I have no idea what will happen in the season, I could only make a guess for episode 1, and one of my guesses was Dragonstone. That doesn’t make me smart by any means, because its a perfect unspoilery title that focuses on the most important event of the episode.
🙂
okok. Here are my speculations – based only officially released materials NO LEAKS:
Episode #61: “Dragonstone”
Jon (Kit Harington) organizes the defense of the North: Jon has scenes with Sansa and Tormund and there is some annoying squabbling.
Cersei (Lena Headey) tries to even the odds: Cersei and Euron make contact I would guess. Otherwise, just meeting with Jaime and discussing teh strats
Daenerys (Emilia Clarke) comes home: Dragonstone. duh.
Episode #62: “Stormborn” . (BCogs EPI YAS!!!!)
Daenerys (Emilia Clarke) receives an unexpected visitor: Wow. I have no idea. But I am so excited to find out. I do not think it can be either Jon or Jaime at this point in time (even though I am majorly anticpating these meetings). Arya? Gendry? WTF I do not know.
Jon (Kit Harington) faces a revolt: OH dear Jon. I guess the wildlings and Westerosi are not getting along… again. *sigh*
Tyrion (Peter Dinklage) plans the conquest of Westeros: F— yes, start plannign to take Casterley Rock back from your stupid sister!!!!
Episode #63: “The Queen’s Justice”
Daenerys (Emilia Clarke) holds court: Pleasepelasepleaseplease let this be Elaria being held to account for Myrcella (this is my fondest dream)
Cersei (Lena Headey) returns a gift: Euron gives her ships/army, she gives him something back. Maybe a sexy something.
Jaime (Nikolaj Coster-Waldau) learns from his mistakes: OK this is extremely vague but also enticing, please let it be something substantial and breakup-inducing.
So hype!!!!!!
Lord Parramandas, thanks to you, playing the part of Buzz Killington to perfection every time. It’s a comfort in these trying times.
I couldn’t care less about episode names, I’m pretty sure no one else but this niche does either. I just need to see the episode!
Please don’t! 🙂
Yes!
Ahhhhhhhhhhhh the Hype is Real … it can’t be contained anymoreeeeeeeee
“Jamie learns from his mistakes”
Valonqar theory CONFIRMED! #thankshbo
With those titles and descriptions there is no doubt that S7 will be very Dany-Cersei-Jon-centric. After suffering through endless High Sparrow scenes, it’s a relief to know the show is back to focusing on the 3 main families.
Luka Nieto,
OKAY!!!!
#$&*$%&^27@#$&^*@#$%^&*(#$%&*
Hahaha. I need a drink.
While “Dragonstone” is obvious, perhaps too obvious, it’s also rather boring for a premiere episode title imo. It really makes no difference though. 🙂
Lord Parramandas,
I still think this is a silly criticism.
And plus “Stormborn” can relate Euron.
These episode titles have double and triple meanings.
Dragonstone also houses Dragonglass which will be a big focus this season.
Luka Nieto,
But it’s only the titles for the first three episodes. The show can still get cancelled after that 😛
Give me the poetic titles HBO!I’m waiting.Anyway can they let Jon have a nap.Like just for my blood pressure.Anyway Sansa is revolting.She has taken all Jon’s furs and clothes and has given them to Littlefinger.The situation is quite dire lol.I’m exited for every episode because duh but I literally can’t wait for episode 3.It’s gonna be great
In any case these descriptions are vague enough but nothing will surpass the excellent trolling job that was:Sam and Gilly meet an older gentleman lol.
Lyanna_Targaryen,
If I’m honest, I’m annoyed by all the overwhelming love Dany gets, like she’s some flawless hero… even though I generally prefer positive approach. Her scenes really leave bitter taste in my mouth as a consequence and I really don’t enjoy that all the titles are focused on her… on top of that, I’m not a fan of the actress’s performance and I cannot warm up to her character.
I agree, I find it pretty ridiculous. The third may be related to Cersei though, so I’ll hold off judgment on that one.
Queenofthrones,
STOP
I cant handle this. Your predictions are getting me so hype. HAHAHA
All week im like WHO CARES ABOUT EPISODE TITLES, NO ONE DOES
and now that ive seen them im like @#$%^&*() hahahaha
BunBunStark,
THISSSSSSSSSSSS
Oh? The KitN 2.0 is not absolute? There is dissension? I’m shocked! (*sarcasm*)
Go figure…
I know that Danaerys is D———-s Stormborn but is it possible that “Stormborn” could also allude to something to do with Euron. He did tell his big brother he (Euron) was “the storm” before he committed fratricide.
Jenny,
It’s actually Jon’s hair that’s revolting. His curling iron stopped working. #prayforhim
HelloThere,
SMH
People.. people. Party pooping people. I cant deal!!
Boom, called it today.
______________________
Ryan
July 7, 2017 at 9:16 am
I very much believe the 7.01 title will be announced today.
Flayed Potatoes,
VERY boring titles, but honestly the quality of the titles has kind of suffered in recent years. They used to be more intriguing, at least to me. “Dragonstone” is an odd one, it occurred to me a couple days ago that they might name the premiere that, but then I thought “Nah, no way, too simplistic”.
Guess they don’t mind being straightforward.
From the complete press release/. “Returning series regulars on Game of Thrones this season include: Emmy and Golden Globe winner Peter Dinklage (Tyrion Lannister), Nikolaj Coster-Waldau (Jaime Lannister), Lena Headey (Cersei Lannister), Emilia Clarke (Daenerys Targaryen), Aidan Gillen (Petyr “Littlefinger” Baelish), Kit Harington (Jon Snow), Diana Rigg (Lady Olenna Tyrell), Sophie Turner(Sansa Stark) and Maisie Williams (Arya Stark).
Additional returning series regulars this season include: Alfie Allen (Theon Greyjoy), John Bradley (Samwell Tarly), Gwendoline Christie (Brienne of Tarth), Liam Cunningham (Davos Seaworth), Nathalie Emmanuel (Missandei), Jerome Flynn (Bronn), Iain Glen (Jorah Mormont), Isaac Hempstead Wright (Bran Stark), Conleth Hill (Varys), Kristofer Hivju (Tormund Giantsbane),Hannah Murray (Gilly), Carice van Houten (Melisandre), Indira Varma (Ellaria Sand), Pilou Asbaek(Euron Greyjoy), Rory McCann (Sandor “The Hound” Clegane) and Richard Dormer (Beric Dondarrion).
New cast members for the seventh season include: Jim Broadbent, Tom Hopper, Megan Parkinson and Ed Sheeran.”
Looks like Pilou Asbaek and Richard Dormer won the series regular lottery this year. Better luck next year Gemma Whelan, Jacob Anderson, and Daniel Portman….if you survive….
I was concerned for his health at this point!!
*eyeroll* Ugh they set themselves up for having to manufacture drama in the Nort by not having any non-WW enemies left this season. *sigh*
IKR??? X-mas in July!!
Markus Stark,
Its also about being vague.
They don’t want to give anything away.
I’ve always thought this show was at its best when it’s kept the focus primarily on the three noble families of Stark, Targaryen, and Lannister. And it appears as though this season will have all that in spades.
The episode titles are vague, but then again they do naturally make the most sense. I’ve always enjoyed that for such a complex show they enlist simple and nebulous titles for the episodes.
Thanks! I’m so happy we got some titles they could have been named anything lol!
Jack Bauer 24,
So, what happened to there being no titles this year ? I thought they were going to be called “Episode 1”, “Episode 2”, etc….
Maybe you’ll finally chill out now.
Dame of Mercia,
Actually I immediately thought of Dany and Euron. Ugh Euron #why
Markus Stark,
They ran out of budget coming up with the Episode names. Being on the clock and all, they only had FIVE MINUTES to submit 7 titles. Cut them some slack! HAHA!
Jenny,
I’m glad I’m not the only one who saw that description for “Second Sons”. That’s about as vague as one can ever get
Queen’s Justice is obviously Cersei doing whatever to the Dorne crowd.
Haha!
Agreed. Although, it makes it easy later for referring to episodes I guess. In my head I’ll just keep referring to the premiere as “Return of the Dragon” because I like it. 😛
Dee Stark,
If done right, Euron is a great character… if they can remedy the clumsy writing for him in S6.
CANT STOP WONT STOP !!
I’m good now and my apologies for being difficult about it. I quite like the titles btw and don’t mind them being Dany heavy (although the third could be for Cersei too)
I have the same problem with someone else. No other comment 😉
They could call an episode “Poop” and I’d be excited.
Markus Stark,
I mean really D&D and the other writers aren’t big fans of subtlety lol. Not even surprised… Battle of the Bastards is just lol.
But at least they released The Winds of Winter before GRRM. This year they’ll release A Dream of Spring maybe 😛
*gets bricked*
Someone is captured in episode 2 and gifted to Cersei.
Cersei, the mad queen, returns the gift to Dany by sending her their head(s).
HelloThere,
Yeah, but I’d prefer a more cryptic approach. “Dragonstone” is just way too straightforward. Anyway it doesn’t matter, they’re just titles.
I really liked his introduction scene. Thought it was really well done and Euron came off very menacing.
Flayed Potatoes,
“Second Sons”
“The Children”
“Mother’s Mercy”
“Book of the Stranger”
HelloThere,
We shall see. I am open to it.
Clob,
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0345856/
Ugh…but likely. I hope an episode in S8 is named A Time for Wolves.
HelloThere,
“Hold the Poop” would be the greatest episode title ever
Hope she uses some gift wrap.
Andrew W,
I wouldn’t pay much mind to that. Series regular doesn’t necessarily mean main cast member credited in the intro. Anyway, the second list is “other series regulars”, so… 😉
I like it!
If you’re right, Plz let it be sandsnakes lol (And NOT Yara GJ).
Queenofthrones,
I secretly don’t want you to! HAHA
Dee Stark,
They haven’t full blown Sand Snaked him yet so….
and plus until Season 5, characters like Olenna, Margaery, and Oberyn were made even better than their book counterparts… But they also were introduced early on the story and given real heft and screentime.
Hindsight is 20-20, but Euron should’ve been brought in for season 4 or 5 if they meant for him to be a powerhouse.
Mr Derp,
Kissed by Poop, The Poop, The Poop and the Rose
Actually the third one is quite fitting…
Dee Stark,
teehee 🙂
HelloThere,
I guess so.. I should give it a chance, and I will. I mean come on… like you, I would love any POOP on this show. Hahaha
I just don’t want him to come in and kill some one (dragons and wolves inclusive) I like… LOL
Flayed Potatoes,
And Now Our Poop is Ended
I have no idea why Im getting such a kick out of this. It must be Friday
Lord Parramandas,
Only one title is without a doubt centered around Dany. ‘The Queen’s Justice ‘ is 100 percent referring to Cersei. Dragonstone is a place. Calm down. Yes, the titles are kind of ‘meh’, though I like ‘Stormborn’. But most people couldn’t even name the titles to most episodes. And really, Dany’s arrival in Westeros is monumental, so of course that would be a focus.
Dame of Mercia,
I think Ep 2 is marine battle because of this.
Returning a gift would be something to Euron i believe. Grant of permanent title or something when he shows up in Blackwater Bay in force and with a gift
Mr Derp,
Poop is coming.
How long can this go on? HAahaha
Jack Bauer 24,
Indeed. I was honestly quite worried about Euron for season seven, because he has only two scenes in season 6, and in the first he’s marvelously creepy and mad, and in the other he’s a boisterous buffoon. I hoped that just meant he was acting to win over the ironborn, but I didn’t want to hope. Apparently, I was right to hope! An interview today with Pilou Asbaek and others touches on this, claiming he’s very different in private. We’ll publish it in a few hours here.
A Dornish Tyrell,
has to be littlefinger!
Dee Stark,
Kissed by Poop
The Broken Poop
Mr Derp,
Poop of my Poop, The Poop of Winter, Mother’s Poop, The Dance of Poops
This truly is…. A Game of Poops.
Dee Stark,
Dee, it could have been worse (are you an ASOIAF book reader?) – there were I think three more Ironborn “nuncles” in the books – Damphair, (well, we’ve seen a similar character but not identified as a Greyjoy – the priest who dunks the Ironborns’ heads under water), Victarion and an uncle on Theon’s and Yara’s (Asha’s in the books) mother’s side, Roderick the Reader. We’ve got off lightly in the show with just one, (sorry, I’m not trying to upset any Ironborn fans but it’s better for me to be honest, surely?)
Luka Nieto,
Spoiler? Haha!
Flayed Potatoes,
That’s the biggest tragedy that has befallen the north in all these years.
HelloThere,
Flayed Potatoes,
LOL!!!!!!!
FRIDAYYYYY
😡😡😡😡
Where’s the Wolf Girl?
Nothing in the episode summaries about her. Is she going to be riding horsies and camping ? Damn.
Unless…
“The Queen’s Justice” refers to
Dame of Mercia,
I haven’t read them yet.
I guess you are right. Thank God!
I am so not Ironborn fan lol
Yes, they’re just titles, I know… like I said in one comment, it annoys me a bit how much overwhelming love Dany gets among general fandom. I’m trying to warm up to her and she did become slightly better for me in S6 but apart from S1, she’s not a character that i would really enjoy her presence on screen.
See Jack Baur, I told you we would get the titles this week:-D
I am beyond excited. I was wondering if the revolt is due to the Umbers and Karstarks. Their houses got their butt kicked big time. Don’t tell me, I did not read the leak. I want to be surprised. I would think what is left of the Sandsnakes will be brought to justice by Cersei.
Lord Parramandas,
It’s the dragon factor. Dragons will always win in a popularity contest.
Dee Stark,
They are generally dull to read about, and those chapters can be generally annoying side stories with little relevance to the plot.
But my main problem w/ Euron in the show was just the silliness of the kingsmoot sequence in the writing.
Cersei returns Eurons “big” c*ck to him? I like this season already.
I’m so happy. I can’t believe a tv show can make me so happy.
Soooooooo happy!!!!
Dee Stark,
I was discussing his season six scenes.
Jaime learns from his mistakes… hmmm
Sure, the titles sound boring in some ways, but “Home” and “The Door” as names were criticized ahead of time too, so a seemingly lame title means little in terms of episode content…
I was hoping for ‘Queen’s Landing’ for the premiere, but whatevs. Hoping for ‘King Of Winter’ and ‘The Wolf And The Dragon’ for later episode titles.
The episode titles will get criticized one way or another. You can’t please everyone.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Queen’s Landing would have been quite clever. Damn. Now I really want that.
False. Podrick can please everyone.
Luka Nieto,
OH oops. I kind of thought so but wasn’t sure. Sorry… I know you wouldn’t post spoiler stuff but just wanted to make sure. Hahaha
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I was hoping for “First of Her Name”, but so much for that. I’m hoping that the season finale will be “A Song of Ice and Fire”.
I was also thinking “The Storm” would be an episode title. Got soooo close, yet so far away.
We can’t say what Jaime’s mistakes might be in S7 but what are they up to this point? What do we consider mistakes, poor decisions?
That is like the only thing we don’t agree on!
Luka Nieto,
Could this be the key to bringing down the Night King?
Luka Nieto,
Yes, I was actually very very excited w/ him in 6×02.
I enjoyed that scene.
I think the logic of the kingsmoot, with the confusing montage, and Yara and Theons ridiculous coup of the entire fleet.. and then the claim of building 1000 ships threw me off, lol.
Jenny,
And obviously
Jenny, I can’t believe we just leaked season 7!!
OK here is my speculation on the key pieces per episode:
Cersei evening the odds is an alliance with Euron in the first episode. (sooner than I expected).
The unexpected visitor Dany receives is Melisandre but could be Jorah.
The revolt for Jon must be Sansa/Littlefinger.
Dany holding court is an odd one, is someone on trial if so who could it be? Or could it mean the arrival of certain special visitors
Cersei returning a gift is almost certainly revenge on her enemies, could this be the Martells by chance
Chuck,
Right? Lol.. #loser (me)
HelloThere,
I guess so. I wont be so cynical about Euron anymore, until after season 7. Thanks 🙂
7×4 – “Field of Fire”
🚂
(* boards train*)
I LOVE THE SECRECY BEHIND ARYA AND BRAN
SO
FUCKING
HYPE
SOMEBODY GIVE ME A DAMN DRINK
HelloThere,
That’s been my suggestion for a while now. I hope they choose that, or something better. But I may change my opinion even if I’m disappointed at first. Some titles look boring until one watches the episode. “Home” and “The Door” come to mind. They seemed so generic… but they really weren’t, at all.
I feel like the third is about Cersei not Dany.
Mali,
Oh! I’m sure LF will be involved in one way or another in that revolt… I can’t wait to see him in action again. As Varys would put it: “I rather enjoy him“.
But when I said I live uncertainty I was referring to the fact that I have no idea about the things that will happen this season (besides what it’s shown in the trailers).
HelloThere,
Good call, I was thinkin along the same lines
Luka Nieto,
Flayed Potatoes, Jenny,
http://rebloggy.com/post/1k-my-gifs-my-stuff-jon-snow-kit-harington-got-cast-gotcastedit-pompeii-movie/84323547662
A Dornish Tyrell,
Seriously… who does LF think he is, revolting against Jon Snow IN Winterfell?
Go back to the fucking Fingers !
Lord Parramandas,
Maybe in the next four we’ll get: The White Wolf, The Pack, Mother of Madness and The Long Night to reference the other crucial players. The titles annoyed me a bit as well but are we really surprised? Dany landing in Westeros will most likely redirect most of the other characters whether many of us like it or not. And in turn the walkers will redirect her path as well.
Yeah, I don’t care about Ellaria and the Spice Snakes, but I’m fearful for Yara. Though her head could go right back to Euron rather than Dany, I suppose.
And I don’t know why people are assuming that ‘The Queen’s Justice’ refers primarily to Dany. The King’s Justice was a euphemism for Ilyn Payne in his role as royal executioner; I suppose Ser Robert Strong/Frankenmountain serves Cersei in that capacity.
In any case, they usually choose titles general enough to apply to several different aspects of the episode in question. Cersei, Dany and perhaps other past or would-be queens may have some justice to dish out.
Flayed Potatoes,
Hot Pie with an express delivery of pasties and gravy, special deals for leaders of invading armies
Lord Parramandas,
Thank you for saying this!!!! I agree!!! Everyone wants to bite my head off for it though.
HelloThere,
This would be perfect.
Sundae,
Damn now I feel even worse about my hair.Anyway Kitten is a liar.
I was thinking that, too. D&D definitely wrote 6 and 7, which leaves Hill either 4 or 5.
Dee Stark,
Hahaha… You know quite well that “he would see this country burn if he could be king of the ashes.”
Bless his little charcoal heart! 😛
I wouldn’t be surprised if it referred to both Cersei and Dany – way back in season one the “Golden Crown” referred to Viserys’s “crown” from Khal Drogo but also to Ned realising that Cersei’s children all had golden hair.
Danny,
Good guesses!
For the record, here are my suggestions for the rest of the season:
Episode 65: The (Last) Stag
Episode 66: (The) Dead
Episode 67: (The) Fall or The Dragon and the Wolf
So, what are your title guesses for episodes 4, 5, 6 and 7, people?
If they’re based on filming spoilers or leaks, cover it with a spoiler tag, please.
Sorry, but I hear he’s busing catering for a dinner party Cersei is throwing this season! She’s even preparing gifts for all the guests! Queen of potlucks!
OK, just to break the tension I may have unintentionally caused… I’m not a Dany hater and I really try to warm up to her as I know I will otherwise not enjoy the show. In fact, I’m not a “hater” of any main character as they all play role in the story and have their own journeys. There are scenes of her that I surely enjoyed, especially in S6. Her goodbye to Mormont, naming Tyrion her hand… those two especially stand out for me and I hope there will be more of those scenes in S7 and not just “Dany delivering speeches” (which are usually among my less favorite ones”).
But I do admit I’m not the one who would be hyped about “Jon, Dany and Tyrion teaming up to defeat bad guys”. Tyrion is one of my favorite characters but these characters together is not something that would give me “the special feelings”. Cersei, Jaime, Sansa… I enjoy their presence more than Jon and Dany if I’m honest and I try to view show as following the characters themselves, their journey. So the overwhelming hype about Jon and Dany possibly meeting up (who are total strangers to each other)… I must say it turns me off a bit. I would probably like if/when they meet… but it won’t be some big moment for me.
Not just Arya and Bran – SAM! We have seen so little of his adventures at the Citadel in the promotional material. A few stills of him holding/reading books is all I think we have. It is the story arcs they don’t show us anything of that are most exciting me, because it leads to the question of WHY they are hiding it.
Also interesting to note that the show has been pushing Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion, Cersei and Jaime as the “big five”, and these episode summaries only mention those five characters.
Episode titles don’t always indicate episode quality – remember how much we all complained last season about “The Door“?
Hodors Bastard,
Flayed Potatoes,
I’m pretty confident they’ll be using “A Dream of Spring” or some variation of it for the final episode of the entire show.
Alba Stark,
Haha, “The Door”… the biggest positive surprise to me when it came to the episode. I really did not expect such an incredible piece of GoT.
I’m about to quickly analyze this so here we go:
Episode #61: “Dragonstone”
Jon organizes the defense of the North. – This is pretty self explanatory I believe, we have seen this scene in the trailer where everyone is at the Winterfell hall.
Cersei tries to even the odds. – This means Cersei is gonna try her hardest do gather an army big enough to be able to fight Dany. The giant map scene might be a part of it. Euron might be the one to reach out to her, although I admit it does feel kinda early.
Daenerys comes home. – This is pretty self explanatory as well.
Episode #62: “Stormborn”
Daenerys receives an unexpected visitor. – Now this is the exciting part. Who could it be? My first thought was Jon but that would be too early. After thinking about it I am pretty sure it’s gonna be Melisandre. We see her at Dragonstone as well in the trailer.
Jon faces a revolt. – Pretty sure not all of the lords were happy with the King in the North situation, so some of them might actually declare for Sansa, and this all ties in Littlefinger and Sansa possibly plotting against Jon.
Tyrion plans the conquest of Westeros. – Pretty sure we’re gonna see Tyrion make his plans around the big Westeros map table at Dragonstone here. They are gonna prepare for Dany conquering the Seven Kingdoms.
Episode #63: “The Queen’s Justice”
Daenerys holds court. – She had an unexpected visitor last episode but holding court means receiving a more important party. Pretty sure this is when Jon and Davos arrive at Dragonstone. We see then there in the trailer as well.
Cersei returns a gift. – This is obviously another one of her revenges. Who is left out there that Cercei might feel like they need to pay for hurting her? Sansa and Tyrion perhaps but they won’t be close to Cersei at this point. She blames Martells for killing her daughter and Ellaria did send her that necklace at the beginning of season 5. So perhaps Cersei has a gift for Ellaria as well? Or this could mean someone actually helped Cersei in her predicament against Dany and her armies so she might just be returning the favor in some way or another.
Jaime learns from his mistakes. – Is this Jaime finally realizing who Cersei is? Or something else? We see him fighting for the Lannister army against Dany in the trailer so we know he still fights for Cersei, which means he won’t be out of her clutches yet.
A Dornish Tyrell,
UGH! LOL!!! DIE B&&CH
Alba Stark,
So trueeee. But Bran and Arya are ma babiessss
Luka Nieto,
Episode 4: Field of Fire
Episode 5: The Dragon and the She-Wolf (if this is the episode where Inspector Gilly allegedly finds out about the R+L marriage; if not idk – I can’t exactly remember what happens here according to spoilers)
Episode 6: King of Winter
Episode 7: A Dream of Spring
Azor Asshai,
“A Dream of Spring” would be a perfect series finale title, just like “The Winds of Winter” was for the season six finale. That’s why I hope (though not necessarily expect) we’ll at some point get “A Time for Wolves”, which was GRRM’s last planned volume title when this wasn’t a heptalogy. Maybe for season seven, maybe eight. I just hope they use that title somewhere.
Azor Asshai,
I think A Song of Ice and Fire would be a better fit as the last ever episode.
If I add a bit more to my comment above: I’m hyped about S7 for sure. Maybe not as much as I was for S6, but I still am. But maybe my own hype is not in the same place as the hype of most of the people… I’m looking forward to S7 as a whole, the confronations, the battles and probably some twists as well (Dany’s conquest cannot be without firm obstacles I assume). But I still enjoy GoT for its complexity… the layered characters who are all grey and not black/white.
Flayed Potatoes,
That works too, certainly! I just expect “Ice and Fire” to come earlier.
Jenny,
I’m sure he rolls up his hair on curlers every night before he goes to bed and no one can tell me otherwise lol
Perhaps the revolt is put down by Jon’s “fought together speech” we saw in the trailer?
HelloThere,
Yep fully agree with you and I saw Luka suggest it a week or two ago and it makes total sense, I would be amazed if it’s not that.
Luka Nieto,
7.05 – The Wolf And The Dragon
7.06 – King Of Winter
7.07 – The Long Night
Yeah…the homage would be tremendous. Maybe they will use it for S8’s final episode…or maybe just “Ice and Fire”.
I was wondering if this season’s titles would be “Fire/Dany”-related and next season’s titles would be “Ice/Stark”-related…but “The Queen’s Justice” seems to refute that…or does it?
Flayed Potatoes,
HelloThere,
You said it!
E04: Khaleesi
E05: breaker of chains
E06: mother of dragons
E07: Alliances (people of westeros and WW join forces in order to stop hearing that title)
kidding(or not) this shows how I feel about the episodes’ names
Flayed Potatoes,
…And amusingly enough I’m actually expecting that as the title for the last episode of Season 7. For a number of reasons.
Too much Dany, this is annoying.
I’m really hoping they use “A Time for Wolves” too.
These are all red herrings to have folks thinking this will be Dany’s season but instead:
Dragonstone is obviously about Stannis who is not really dead and will regroup with Mel, Davos, and Sal San back at their homebase in the premiere. Get Hype
Stormborn will be Euron’s coming out party and secure him as a player in the Game. Stormborn refers to his reign as Iron Islands king born on the night of the great storm when he tossed his brother of the bridge last season.
Queen’s Justice refers to Sansa usurping Jon as KitN and taking her rightful place as…
Who am I kidding, I couldn’t even keep a straight face as I typed these.
Finha,
I think ‘A Time For Wolves’ would have worked for episode 9 last season, but I guess it was too spoilery.
Jack Bauer 24:
Saner Half, who just watched the show with me (his first-ever viewing), called that scene “Shakespearean.” He loved it.
#4 should be named what you wrote.
6: “Clash of Kings”
7: I do think “The Fall” is good for a couple of reasons. It may also be a good time to use “Ice and Fire”
Luka Nieto:
Oh, really? How intriguing. Very different during sexytime with Cersei, perhaps? 😉
Lord Parramandas,
why does it bother you?I don’t understand the need to be mad because fans show support for their favorites characters . How is it undeserved? you obviously don’t like her but that is just your opinion, doesn’t mean other people shouldn’t like her, or that you should be offended because some people prefer her over your faves. After all the irrational hate Daenerys character has received over the years from a certain part of the fandom that loves to hate and trash any character, especially female ones, that dares to take the spotlight from their particular favorite, I think it’s a refreshing change.
Daenerys arc this season is a major event, it makes sense the focus of this season will be put on her arrival to Westeros.
And it’s only three episodes names, I’m sure every character will have their opportunity to shine.
I actually really like these titles. I was hoping that the premier would be called Long May She Reign. I had other ideas for titles as well, including A Song of Ice and Fire, The Great War, Family Duty Honor (if Arya releases Edmure and heads north to Winterfell), Growing Strong (if we ever get to see Highgarden and it could also refer to any of the factions gaining power), The Army of the Dead, Full of Terrors, The Pack Survives, Silence (after Euron but of course could refer to a number of things)
😂😂😂
I’m hoping for either
7.5: This Is Irregular
7.6: The Gravy
7.7: Less Enemies for Us
8.1: Fewer
or
7.5: The Wolf and the Dragon
7.6: He Brings the Storm
7.7: The Shield that Guards the Realms of Men
8.1: Night Gathers
Dee Stark:
And the Brotherhood.
I need to go to work and I really don’t wanna. WAAAHHH!!!
Huh. I hated that scene, thought Asbaek’s acting on the rope bridge was eye-rollingly bad. I have yet to be convinced that he brings any greater recommendation to the role than the fact that he could pass for Alfie Allen’s blood relative. I guess one viewer’s ‘menacing’ is another’s ‘moustache-twirling.’ (It doesn’t help that ‘Brother, I am the storm’ is dialogue as hokey as the thankfully excised ‘Men call me Darkstar, for I am of the night.’)
But it’s a good thing, really, that different segments of the audience respond positively or negatively to different aspects of the show. Otherwise, we’d quickly run out of discussion topics here!
If Cersei “evening the odds” is her aligning with other houses to stand against Dany, I’m going to assume that D&D will be playing fast and loose with the ever-changing army sizes in post-war Westeros.
King Robert said that Dany bringing one Dothraki Horde to Westeros would be unstoppable, yet Dany has ALL of the many dothraki hordes combined under her control + Unsullied + tens of thousands of other troops she doesn’t need from other Houses + 3 giant dragons who could destroy her enemies all by themselves.
I don’t care if she divides her forces. It’s just kind of laughable to me that anyone wouldn’t run in the other direction at the sight of her forces because of some loyalty to Cersei, or that any Lord would reasonably think they have a chance against her to the point that they would ally with a queen (Cersei) that everyone seems to hate and is incredibly outnumbered even with her potential allies.
Then again, people being unrealistically stupid makes for more drama. Wouldn’t be quite as dramatic if all of the lords laid their swords at Dany’s feet, and Cersei held up in the Red Keep all season threatening to blow it up if Dany steps into the city.
Set A, definitely! I want at least half an episode devoted to discussions of grammar and syntax, as civilized counterbalance to all the blood and guts (and tits and dragons).
‘The Gravy’ would of course include Arya reuniting with Hot Pie and lamenting his absence when she had Freys to fricassee.
https://goo.gl/images/iCHLkt
There you go, Dee 😊
Happy shitting, Game of Poop!
Great little summaries.
Euron is going to be magnificent and I can’t wait.
Hopefully “Jaime gets a fucking clue already” will happen.
We all know that a lot of the best parts are not mentioned in the summaries. No worries. 😊
stefan666,
Cersei “returns a gift.” Deliberate ambiguities aside…
• I considered and rejected Euron presenting to Cersei what he promised would be his glorious appendage, only to have Cersei return it as not measuring up to its advertised product dimensions. GoT has reached its juvenile organ size joke quota already.
• The only “gift” I recall Cersei ever receiving was that unfolding box from Dorne with (a serpent sculpture? and) Myrcella’s necklace.
Might she send back that gift box with another trinket inside?
Check my other comments. It’s not the fact that people like Dany that bothers me… I try to warm up to her myself. It’s the manner that bothers me… the way how is she worshipped as a flawless hero at times. I’m all for positive approach towards the show (in fact it bothers me this year as I feel the site is less positively aimed towards the show than last year) I try to appreciate all the characters, I understand the hype and everything but there is a line where it just feels too much for me, especially when other characters get trashed in the process. GoT is the series of complex layered characters, not “good guys vs bad guys”… the complexity is what has driven my interest in the first place and I try to look at characters from a very layered perspective.
Luka Nieto,
It’s the better title of the three we got.
I suspect that 80% of us are “at work” now. 🙄Don’t let that stop you.
Ser Josh,
People will fight tooth-and-nail for land they consider “theirs” in the face of overwhelming odds against them. Many Westerosi will not view Daenerys’s arrival as her homecoming, but rather, as Targaryen Invasion 2.0.
Daenerys’s military force might appear unstoppable, but remember: She is not there just to conquer. She is not there just to subdue the population, extract resources, and send riches elsewhere. She is planning on settling in Westeros and ruling it. She will not be able to do so (not for long, anyway) if all she has to offer is “fire and blood.”
Ten Bears,
That’s the gift I was referring to, but not necessarily that one being the one she ”returns”. I just mean anything in general to pay Ellaria back. The ”gift” here could mean Cersei’s suffering by the hands of the Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, so a ”returned gift” could simply mean Cersei and/or Euron killing the Sand Snakes(possibly in front of Ellaria) to make Ellaria suffer as well, before killing her too.
Wolfish,
Good point. People need to have a point, why they should support her. Dothraki are savages who pillage, rape and burn everything. I don’t think people would be really happy to support them. And I feel her forces may undergo some damage as the season goes on. It’s too easy for her at the moment.
Ser Josh,
Leveling the playing field may just mean finding a method to do away with the dragons who constitute Dany’s WMDs. You take away the fire breathing lizards and then you just get men against men and army sizes don’t always equate to victory if you have capable commanders and strategists moving the smaller forces. Dany has Tyrion who is cunning but he’s not a military mind. Cersei could possibly have Randall Tarly and whoever he brings on board which would make it an interesting war. All of that, of course, would depend on the dragons being killed which I don’t think will happen. While Dany has those, she shouldn’t be defeated unless she fcks up somehow.
But on a serious note, I was hoping to have episodes with these names (not regarding the leaks, so these might not make sense), “the winter maid”, “forsaken”, “wind and words” “song of ice and fire”
And to those who don’t,please cover your spoilers!!
Love these titles.
Lord Parramandas,
I don’t know how much time the show will have to expend on this after Dany’s successful conquest (if it happens), but it’ll be really interesting to see how the Dothraki “settle in” to Westerosi society during and after the War for the Dawn. Maybe they’ll wind up with the remainder of the Free Folk, and help repopulate the devastated North. That’ll require some major wardrobe changes, but I’m sure they can adjust. 😉
Brilliant analysis… That’s one of the things that really piques my curiosity: once she conquers Westeros, what will she do with the Dothrakis. What are her plans to fundamentally change their mores (from nomadic, warring and pillaging people to… farmers? villagers? burgesses?). Has she considered that?
ETA: the moment I posted my comment I saw your reply to Lord Parramandas and pretty much agree with the fact the the show won’t have much time to dwell in those issues…
A Dornish Tyrell,
Do I hear an echo in here? 😉
(See my reply above to Lord Parramandas.)
Wolfish,
The Dothraki will surely have to change… just how the wildlings were forced to do as well. From what we know from them, they’re savages.
Wolfish,
And there is still a possibility that most of the Dothraki won’t even survive the White Walkers attack… or even the conquest itself. We don’t even know if Daenerys herself will survive the series… or who would be the leader at the end.
Wolfish,
Les grands esprits se rencontrent!!
I’ve edited my comment before seeing your reply… 🙂
I knew there would be an episode called “Dragonstone”!
I hope there is alot of storm in”Stormborn”
You mean Randyl Tarly, warfare general extraordinaire
Love that we finally got the episode titles, and that people get so passionate about them!
“Dragonstone”, “Stormborn”, and “The Queen’s Justice” can all be tied to Dany, but I share the opinion that “The Queen’s Justice”, at least, is more likely to be a direct reference to Cersei. That “gift” that she’s returning to someone, as referenced in the synopsis, is unlikely to be a pleasant one – it’s probably the gift of death, doled out to someone who would prefer that the realm had a more stringent policy against regifting …
“Jon faces a revolt” – I feel very confident that this is a misleading line, one that’s being overstated for dramatic effect. I seriously doubt that he’s facing serious discontent among his supporters already. It’s most likely referring Littlefinger seeking to foment unrest, probably by whispering in Sansa’s ear. Perhaps there are lingering tensions between the wildlings and the Northern Lords, but that feels like something Jon addressed in his speech before he was named King, and that he would most likely be able to diffuse.
As ever, the synopses can be misleading, and sometimes downright cheeky. The infamous example that’s already been cited – “Sam and Gilly meet an older gentlemen”, referring to their encounter with a White Walker – comes to mind.
Yup…just as db and I discussed several weeks back, the Dothraki may be part of the “bittersweet” aspect of this adventure. I believe Dany has uprooted and escorted them to their eventual doom. They will provide us with glorious action and battle sequences but will have limited future options afterwards. The Unsullied (one generation wonders with no possibility of procreation) and wildlings may have similar results as well.
dragonbringer highly disagrees with me though! He/she thinks they will integrate seamlessly. Hmm…
Like you, I don’t think a dragon will die or be subdued by any plan implemented by Cersei or her allies. Because outside of magic devices that I would be shocked to see the show go into, these monsters are just too big at this point to kill in a non-magical manner, and a steel bolt through the eye is blind luck comparable to hitting a 3 point shot from the opposite baseline while blindfolded. Either way, there would still be 2 others if you were so lucky.
With army sizes, numbers can be made up with an exceptional strategy or simply having far superior military tech, but even the best strategy isn’t going to make up for what almost has to be at least a minimum of 100,000-150,000+ Targaryen soldiers vs. maybe 20,000 Lannister loyalists if she gets allies with decently sized armies.
I’m all for Jaime and Bronn having a “300” strategy where they somehow lure 100,000 dothraki into a small opening to hold their own for a while. Although, that doesn’t account for 3 flying Godzilla monsters and it doesn’t take Tyrion being a military genius to not fall for something like that. It only worked against the Persians because they were foreign to the land, while Dany has advisers that know the land.
Lord Parramandas,
One of the things I’m way behind on is watching all those YouTube videos explaining the historical inspirations for ASoIaF. I’ve always assumed the Dothraki were inspired by the Mongols pre-Genghis Khan. He was a brutal conqueror, but he was also an incredibly effective administrator who welcomed trade, fostered the exchange of ideas, and instituted some truly enlightened laws throughout the empire (such as tax exemptions for teachers and the clergy, and, because the Mongols were animists, the prohibition of blood sports). I don’t think Daenerys is the Dothraki equivalent of Genghis Khan, but I think a Genghis might arise among the Dothraki who see how a functional Seven Kingdoms (or perhaps Six Kingdoms) operate under a single ruler (or parliament, or whatever system is instituted assuming the Night King doesn’t win).
Works for me…. with one or two tweaks
7.4 “Gloves!” = callback to Nymeria & Arya S1e2
7.5 “This is Irregular” – Sam, Gilly and Jim Broadbent I presume
But I’m throwing out two alternates: “The Pack”; or “The Princess of Winterfell”
7.6 “The Gravy” – but is it too soon for the reveal that the secret recipe for Hot Pie’s gravy is identical to the method for forging Valyrian Steel?
7.7 “Less Enemies for Us”
8.1 “Fewer”
I like those… but maybe too early to suggest that enemy forces have been defeated?
My alternates:
7.7 “The Warrior” or “The Warrior of Light” or “The Chickens Come Home to Roost”
Oh this is silly. That’s what unrelenting hype will do to you on a Friday afternoon.
Azor Asshai,
08×04 A Time for Wolves, 08×05 A Song of Ice and Fire, 8×06 A Dream of Spring.
Luka Nieto,
My guesses for the remaining titles would be:
605: “The Lone Wolf”
606: “The Long Night”
607: “The Great War”
Andrew W,
With Euron seemingly set to be a big player this season, I now feel pretty confident that Pilou Asbaek, at least, will be a series regular. I’d like Gemma Whelan to join him, but we’ll see. I agree that Daniel Portman, Jacob Anderson, and the others seem less likely. Though as Luka Nieto says, the press release shouldn’t be taken as gospel for these matters. Diana Rigg has been cited as a series regular in the official press release of every single season since at least Season 5 (possibly earlier), including this one, but she’s never appeared in the opening credits as a full-fledged series regular. Go figure.
That being said, Richard Dormer being mentioned is an encouraging sign. I’ve always been a big fan of Beric, but ever since I saw him wielding the flaming sword in the trailer, my hype for Lightning Lord has been in full effect. Hopefully he’ll have a decent-sized role this year alongside Thoros and Sandor Clegane.
A Dornish Tyrell,
Bless his heart indeed, my friend ! Couldn’t agree more ^^
“Littlefinger was born with no lands, no wealth, no armies. He has acquired the first two. How long before he has the army ? Perhaps you’ll laugh but I know him better than most and this is the truth : Littlefinger is one of the most dangerous men in Westeros” – Varys
And look who’s got an army now ! 😉
As for The Queen’s Justice… The idea of Cersei “returning a gift” fills me with both dread and glee considering the last present she received was a snake in a box.
‘Jaime learns from his mistakes.’ All I can say is: About. Freaking. Time.
Ten Bears: “Oh, it’s 5:00.”
Sandor: “Haven’t you had enough?”
Ten Bears: “Of what? … I know. Time to go. “
Hodors Bastard:
Well, in my fantasy world the remaining Dothraki will learn how to wear fur and ride mammoths, all the hunter-gatherer types will get together to repopulate the North and rebuild Hardhome, and the Unsullied will become really popular for being able to provide really hot, non-vanilla sex to all the creative types who wish to remain footloose and fancy-free (that is, the non-repopulating types).
Yeah!!! That’s my “dream of spring.” And just think, I haven’t even started drinking yet!
Ten Bears,
First I am so excited to see titles!
To “Ten Bears”: in other seasons the title would include something like “Arya learns the way things are”… I was hoping to see a short line like that, but I have high hopes for her in the first three episodes. This isn’t a spoiler since it’s in the official HBO photos… she will be in at least one of the Mark Mylod episodes for sure. I just rewatched “Two Swords” a few minutes ago (episode 1 of season 4). Arya doesn’t show up until almost the very end of the episode, and I think it’s one of her most powerful scenes of the series. It really moved me when she rode off with the hound at the end of the episode on her very own first horse and she proudly had needle tucked in her belt (another white horse by the way..The official photos show her new white horse in season 7). Even if her scenes are short compared to Jon, Cersei and Dany, I think Arya’s scenes will be powerful this year. I am hungry for some chicken after watching the end of Two Swords. Such an awesome sequence, I may have to watch it again.
Making the 8,
Yes, I meant Randyll. I would say with so many dead, he’s one of the few capable commanders left in Westeros. Lord Royce may be another one but less likely to fight on Team Cersei. Now I know that Randyll was Team Targaryen once but I doubt he’d go back to them.
Firannion,
Add spoiler tags next time, please! I fixed it for you. And yes, it would be too spoilery, honestly. I just have no idea how to title that episode.
Jaime learns from his mistakes because his gift to Cersei will be the one she returns, forcing him to finally move on
Firannion,
That is true if they truly believe that their land will be taken from them. In the face of certain death, if the invading force says “Bend the knee to me instead of the current Queen who blew up a quarter of your capitol city, and you can go about your business as usual” then most of the Lords would be willing to bend the knee to Dany and tell Cersei to kick rocks. These people have also been told the stories about how the Lords who resisted against Aegon (with basically no army) were easily dispatched, and the Lords who bent the knee prospered. So unlike the first invasion, they have a blueprint of how this will go down and what they should do.
People want to live, and I just don’t see very many Westerosi Lords or common folk caring if Cersei isn’t the person sitting on a throne in KL, especially if their lives are what will be pointlessly sacrificed to attempt to keep her there.
Now, if Dany doesn’t immediately get word out that any lord who kneels to her will keep their lordship and NOT have their lands raided, and she instead allows her dothraki to rape and pillage through the countryside, then sure, the Lords and common folk would take Cersei’s side and hopelessly take arms against her. I just don’t see her doing that, and I don’t see the dothraki being uncontrollable that early on.
Even then, many powerful lords would still ally with Dany to get in her good graces and elevate their House knowing she will win.
screwing his sister
Joining the KG to screw his sister
Putting up with being a 3rd wheel for 20 years so he can keep screwing his sister
Pushing a kid out a window to keep screwing his sister
Not being a dad to his kids allowing one to become an evil psycho
Screwed up his one chance to win a battle
Picking a fight with Brienne led to his hand getting cut off
Failing to protect his other kids
Failing to prevent his sister from committing mass murder
I’d say he’s made a few
Lord Parramandas,
yeah, I agree with you, I also appreciate more the complex characters over the ones that are 100% good or 100% bad because I don’t find them realistic or interesting. But in the case of the perception of certain characters as flawless heros I think it comes more from the fans, that from how the show really portraits them.
I also think there is a lot sexism in how fans react to similar scenarios when it comes to male characters (who are often perceived as the flawless ones) in opposition to female characters (who are more often than not the most criticized). For the last six years many fans had trashed female characters in positions of power and called them many things (mad, entitled, delusional, selfish, etc, etc),completely ignoring what this female characters have being through, the struggles they had to face or the sacrifices thay made to be in the position they are now (, while male characters seemed to have a free pass for all their actions.
As a woman, I’m glad to see a season more focous on the women characters in positions of power, and I don’t think it will be at the cost of the male ones, who will still have important things to do. So I get the hype many fans are getting for this season, because it will show us a perspective that we haven’t seen yet.
ACME,
ACME, my friend! It was time you joined the fray! 🙂
I share the same feelings about Cersei’s gift… 😨
At last, this will be the first time since season 1 that Daenerys will appear in both the 2nd and the 3rd episode of a season.
I hope she’ll get a lot of screen time this season (she barely got any last season), and hope she’ll do more this season, instead of just reciting her titles or barely have any dialogue. She is most likely the least developed main character.
I also hope for less screen time for Jon, as he has gotten way too much since season 4, with almost 3 full episodes that were focused on him, but sadly it won’t happen…
Just when I was coming down off the high from Con of Thrones, this brought it back up! These episodes sounds great! Love the way things are all converging. Wonder who Dany’s surprise visitor is (besides Jon, who sounds like he’s busy elsewhere at that time).
Queenofthrones,
Wildlings are Westerosi. The land north of the Wall is part of Westeros. Westeros is a continent. The Seven Kingdoms is a country.
TargBlood,
Dragonbringer is that you?Just kidding he would never change his screen name lol.
Queenofthrones,
All good. So then I wonder, will he learn from all of his mistakes or from just specific ones…?
One speech doesn’t fix a problem, might put a band-aid for the moment, but I doubt the Wildlings will change their ways over night or because of a speech or command, many will find it difficult to completely change and follow ‘community’ rules – it’s just not what they are used to. This was something he was stressing about back at Castle Black, but they really didn’t have time to go into it in the show, so moving it here would make sense. Plus it could be another reason for Sansa to feel put upon, as Jon leaves her with this mess as he goes South – something for Littlefinger to point to as one of the many way Jon is messing up and she would be a better ruler.
TargBlood,
Dany and Jon will be equals in screen time now that Dany is in Westeros and actively involved in a plot line with other main characters. Jon is the most prominent POV character in the last three books that the show was based on. So it’s no surprise that he has had so much screen time in the last few seasons.
Tron79,
You’re preachin’ to the choir! In my view, the last nine minutes of “Two Swords” is the all-time best segment of GoT. It has everything:
• It starts with the dry comedy of The Hound and Arya throwing shade at each other, eg (paraphrasing)
S: Little lady wants a pony?
A: Little lady wants away from your stench
****
A: You’re not very smart, are you?
S: I’m not a thief.
A: Murdering little boys is [fine] but thieving is beneath you?
S: A man’s got to have a code.
The scene could end there and be great, but of course then we get the “What the fuc*’s a Lommy?” and “Lots of people name their swords”/”Lots of c*nts” comedy bit, before the real laughs, suspense and action, courtesy of Polliver, ale, chickens, “Lowell there”, and some great acting by Rory M. and Maisie W. Arya reclaiming Needle and avenging Lommy, followed by the Hound scarfing chicken and Arya with Needle riding off was just perfect.
Give me 9 minutes like that anywhere in S7 and I’ll be happy.
Throw in a dramatic reappearance by Nymeria just in the nick of time to save Arya and I’ll be ecstatic.
.
A Dornish Tyrell,
Hello dearest Dornish Tyrell ! How you doin’ ?
You know me, I can never resist the call of the fray 😉
Yep, Cersei is now officially unleashed. She came here to love her children and blow shit up and she is all out of children (partly because of some people who gifted her a reptile in a pyramid…) We should brace ourselves. Bodies will hit the floor !
Between Dany being at Dragonstone and the title “Stormborn”, I hope this means we finally get the story of Dany’s birth told on the show. It was weird when I realized that we’ve never gotten that in any detail (or why she and Viserys were the only Targaryens left, what happened to her mother, etc.).
I’m entirely expecting an episode titled “The She-Wolves of Winterfell” around 5 or 6 and/or “A Time for Wolves” in 5,6, or 7. Entirely guesses, but who knows. 9 days. 9 long, long days. Until we have to wait another 7.
Ten Bears,
The choir agrees! “a man’s gotta have a code”… I’m still laughing on that one. I hope Arya somehow gets a chance to meet up with the hound this season. “He was on her list….. he was not on her list anymore…”
Ellie,
Yes, it’s the fandom that is the biggest problem to me, not Daenerys herself. I personally see Daenerys just as flawed as every other main characters. And I personally like most of GoT female characters… I admire Sansa’s internal strength, I enjoy Cersei, Melisandre, Olenna… and Cersei and Margaery among the deceased ones. I even enjoyed The Waif’s presence as an antagonist. As for Dany, I try to warm up to her but she somehow didn’t give me a reason to “root for her”. I don’t know, it could be the actress’ s performance, the way she delivers lines. When audience describes her as “badass”, I usually see her as arrogant and full of herself. And then I ask myself… why should I root for her? She should be a queen for.. why exactly? Because she’s a Targaryen? Her father was a madman who commited horrible acts, Targaryens seemed to suffer from god complex and believed how “pure” they were compared to other people… and Daenerys’s story is completely separate from the main one through the series. The smug face she carries on her face for so much time (especially S4)… that look seems “I’m better than everyone as I’m blood of the dragon” to me, her titles seem another proof of her being quite full of herself. The fact that she names herself “Queen of the Andals and the First Men” before even setting foot on Westeros… these are all traits I don’t like when it comes to people in general, speaking as a person who was often bullied and teased by peers due to my quiet and reserved nature in public as I really lack self-confidence in general. That’s why I enjoy Dany’s tender scenes the most and I’m not fan at all of her “badass” scenes… like I said above, she gave me no firm reason why I should root for her.
I had a similar problem with a character in another TV series, utterly not being able to stand her for entire season due to her “I know all” attitude. But this character changed so much in later seasons, that I actually grew more fond of her. I still cannot stand her in that first season.
Maybe Bran will have flashback about Dany’s birth?
It would probably be the best way to tell it
Jon faces a “revolt” two episodes after being named King in the North? What the hell did they bother naming him King then if people are already ready to revolt? Manufactured drama while they stall for time at it’s finest.
The episode titles are fine. They’re not all about Dany. They have a long history of titling episodes with double meanings. I can think of a few different things for each episode that are not all about Daenerys.
Huh. I’d be happy if it were all Jon all the time. Here’s to three more full episodes of him and then three more and three more. Then it’ll be over. Haha.
I had a feeling she wouldn’t like the dragonhead cuff links I sent her.
Oh well, I’ll send them to Dany, and if she doesn’t like them she’ll melt them down and buy more ships. Our queen does love ships.
Lets just name the last episodes after each of my departed digits…and save the middle one for 7.7
I have to admit to being one of those people who thought The Door? Really? And it was, for me, one of the top 5 episodes ever.
The reality is that now all characters (rather than most) are past the books, it must be harder and harder to try and come up with episode titles that both reflect the episode and don’t give away too much.
Just read this, it seems like all the titiles so far are referring to Dany and Cersei. I find it funny though how so much people claimed they knew the titles and were all wrong lol.
I do love all things Stark myself! And I love that Arya and Bran’s arcs haven’t been made as obvious as those of Jon and Sansa through the stills and trailers HBO have released. I want all my Starks in one place again, and I hope that happens at some point in the next 13 episodes. They all separated in 102, and I need them together again!!!!!
But of all the main characters, I feel Sam is the one we’ve seen least of. I would need to check, but I think we’ve only seen stills of Sam – no footage in either trailer. That has me hoping his arc is spoilery as hell! But then, it could literally be what we’ve seen in the stills – Sam reading books.
Obviously my prediction that episode two would be entitled “Sam Tarly Kicks Decepticon Butt” was way off target.
I agree 100%.
I would also add that she is a manicheist. She killed her follower who killed the Harpy (and someone who kills those devoted to her doesn’t inspire devotion), crucified all masters without attempting to separate the guilty from the innocent and called it justice, let her dragons devour the leader of a great family just to scare the others into confessing, treated Hizdahr like shit when he was trying to do the best for the city and cooperating with her after she killed his father…
For someone who talks a lot about justice, she has no idea what it means.
Out of curiosity, who are you talking about here?
Lord Parramandas,
Just because u dont like Dany doesnt mean everyone else does. People have different opinions and thats what makes the GOT fandom so interesting. I don’t see EVERY fan of the story loving Dany. In fact, out of the 3 main characters (Jon, Tyrion and Dany), Dany is the one main character on the show that gets the MOST hate and criticism from fans. Heck even Jaime is less hated on than Dany. There is no reason for u to get annoyed with fans who like Dany. I personally am not a fan of Sansa or Arya. I am also quite neutral to Jon and Ned. The only Stark I really liked was Robb. The rest, I found dull tbh yet I dont go around criticizing people for loving them or rooting for them.
As for the titles, Dany is one of the primary 3 characters on the show so its expected that she will be a major focus this season. However, the second title could refer to Euron while the 3rd is most likely about Cersei returning a gift to the Sandsnakes.
Dany barely featured in the last trailer which was more focused on Sansa and Jon. Last season was also all about Sansa, Jon and Cersei. Dany only got 2-3 major scenes last season and that was it. I think its about time that we finally see more of her considering that she IS one of the 3 main characters of the story.
I agree with you, and my Second Wave feminist résumé goes back to the 1970s. Disliking Dany is not necessarily about feeling threatened by a ‘badass’ female leader. I had the exact same problem with the character of Stannis that I do with the character of Dany: People who feel ‘entitled’ irritate the heck out of me (partly on account of my having been married to one such for way too long, I suspect). I liked her all right in the beginning, when she was an underdog; but once she got into ‘take what is mine with fire and blood’ mode, she lost my sympathy altogether. (Some Photoshop genius should do a meme morphing Dany’s face with the seagulls yelling ‘Mine! Mine! Mine!’ in Finding Nemo.)
Contrast her personality with, say, Davos: A large part of his charm lies in his humility. He is grateful for his preferment at Stannis’ hands and never takes it for granted. I’ll take the salt-of-the-Earth commoners over the aristocracy every time.
Of course, the fact that the TV version cut out most of the parts of the books that dealt with the effects of the war on the smallfolk and focused mainly on the doings of the nobility means that we have a lot more of these entitled types to contemplate. And although I find the Dany chapters in the books among the dreariest to slog through, I think that the uninspired casting also plays a part in my lack of enthusiasm. I’m just not impressed with Emilia Clarke’s two-note acting (as nice a person as she may be in real life).
Jenny,
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I’m so happy that one of the episode titles is Stormborn. Ever since I saw someone suggest that for an episode title during this long wait for S7 I thought that it would be so perfect. Also, I can’t believe that the wait is almost over!
Haha, you’re right, subtlety is not their strong suit.
Firannion, Lord Parramandas
I agree with both of you. I am a law student, a feminist, a woman trying to fight for the underdog . . . and I just never clicked with Emilia Clark’s interpretation of the character. And there are a few (notice I am not throwing all of you under the bus) but a few very loud Dany supporters that will write you off as an angry bitter shrew for not idolizing her. ( I was once told if I lost weight I would be able to see Dany’s appeal, inferring the only reason someone would not like her was selfish jealousy that I don’t look that good naked) I just think Dany is an entitled immature individual.
also personally I don’t think Ms. Clark has the range to do the character justice. {It is my tinfoil theory that after the fiasco of “where are my dragons” and the negative critical reviews that followed in season 2 D+D just decided to neuter the character to some form of “misunderstood Fire Elsa”. to accommodate her range} and yes I know she has had multiple Emmy nominations but I still think she has three acting faces and having family in the theater I have been unable to take her seriously since season 1 really.
But to those who like her, I am happy for you. my life would be easier if I did. Keep liking her, but I just can’t and that does not mean I am a bad person, just an unlucky one since it seams D+D will keep killing my favorites to make room in the budget to pay for Ms. Clark’s salary.
It’s just hard to like Emilia Clarke when you have a show with Lena Headey, Peter Dinklage, NCW, Charles Dance, Alfie Allen and Diana Rigg, among others.
No mention of Paul Kaye , but should be there.
So season 6 they never explained, did they?, what happened to Anguy?
Philip McGinley is not listed for season 7 either?
Three down and four to go. Which reminds me, apparently the episode numbers come from Entertainment Weekly. But shouldn’t they be 7.01, 7.02, and 7.03? Might James HIbberd have forgotten his maths?!?!?
IMO, the titles are appropriate but blase’. I prefer titles with poetry, metaphor, enigma but which encompass many stories within the episode. For example, Second Sons has stories about many second sons. Two Swords starts with the re-forging of Ice into two swords but it’s also about a lost Stark sword and a found one (Needle). The Night Lands, Kissed by Fire, MOther’s Mercy–all intriguing and all pertinent to several characters. My guesses for the remaining four this season:
7.05–The Fellowship.
7.06–Ice and Fire. Or The Dead.
7.07–Either The Fall or A Time for Wolves.
Luka and others have said The Fall too. If the Wall falls, it will surely be then. Also, I think Littlefinger and maybe are riding for a fall as well. The other title speaks for itself.
“Daenerys Targaryen has finally set sail for Westeros with her armies, dragons ..”
She seemed to have a navy 100 times bigger than any in Westerous.
Seems KL would just throw in the towel seeing that!
“Carice van Houten (Melisandre)”
I am infinity curious to what Mel’s story is.
I am guessing the threat to Westerous by the White-Others-Walkers (whatever the hell the show wants to call them). Will Varys join in with her?
Mel leave before Davos arrives?
Uoanuns,
Like I said in one comment above, it’s the manner that usually bothers me, not the fact that people like Dany. And as I said in another comment, I’m not a Dany hater and I could list several scenes I really like, especially those in S6. But I’m not that much of a fan… as much as I try to warm up to her, her character doesn’t give me “the feelings”. As for general fandom, I usually avoid most of GoT sites but on those rare occasions I visited official FB site, the comment sections were full of endless praise… well, I don’t know what is the current situation, but even my friend from LFU group, who hasn’t even watched GoT yet, noticed how she appears everywhere and she mentioned to me that some praise-comments make her roll her eyes.
I do try my best to try to like her… but it’s mostly limited to S1 and S6 for me, with a bit of S5 as well.
Firannion,
Considering that we usually never agree on the site, I’m glad we found a bit of common tongue on this subject. Yes, speaking against “strong women” and you’re immediately proclaimed a sexist (especially when being a male). It happened to me in LFU group when I wrote a comment why I cannot warm up to a certain female character… again I suspect that my main issue in that case as well was the actress’s performance, combined with personality I don’t like when it comes to people. Well, that person did shut up when I listed him a series of female characters from many TV series and movies, GoT included. And of course I’m the admin there and it’s not clever to mess with me…😄😄 (Just kidding on this last part… we never kicked anyone for having a different opinion, and we aim to be friendly to the members).
The original Stargaryen,
I see Daenerys as flawed character like everyone else… she’s just one of the many main characters in the series, part of the story, not “the story itself”. There are moments of her I really like, there are moments that I don’t like, there are moments that don’t make me feel anything. But I’m not “rooting” for her, merely observe the part she has in the story and try to see her journey as a character, the progression and regression she achieved.
BigMac,
She’s very different from Daenerys but I’m talking about Juliet Burke from LOST. My No.6 character from the series, my second favorite female character from the series but god, I really cannot stand her through entire S3 when she got introduced. A “strong female character” for sure, but not a character I would admire.
Tessa-Rose Davidson,
In my opinion the actress is the best in tender scenes when she shows her vulnerable side… but when it comes to “power scenes”, I somehow cannot warm up to her. I don’t know… but I believe the performance could be the reason.
Lord Parramandas,
Well, I think it’s a matter of personal preferences. For me, in particular, if I had to choose my Top 3 favorites characters I would say Dany, Tyrion and Jon. That been said, my personal choice for the most qualified ruler is Daenerys.
why should I root for her? She should be a queen for.. why exactly? Because she’s a Targaryen?
Well, the Targaryen were the ones who “created ” the Iron Throne and united the 7K, and as any monarchy, the title of King/Queen is past by birth right. Plus, the Targaryen had held the throne for centuries, Robert was called “The Usurper” for a reason. Having the right family name, as Varys said, is important, but not a reason to like a character.
Her father was a madman who commited horrible acts
She knows what her father was, she doesn’t fool herself, but she can not be held responsable for her father’s acts. And, lets be honest, Tywin, Robert, Balon Grayjoy, Stannis etc they have all done terrible things, actually there are very few characters at this point who have not done horrible things. The Targaryen are always accused to be all mad, but they have had as many terrible kings as wonderful ones (Actually, Aegon I was considered by many as the best king the 7K have ever had, and in many ways Daenerys path is very similar to him, more than any other of her ancestors)
Targaryens seemed to suffer from god complex and believed how “pure” they were compared to other people…
The “pure” line comes from a Valyrian tradition, not just the Targaryen. I see it as a tradition, not a god complex. And through the years many houses married Targaryens- Rhaegar, for instance, married a Martell.
Daenerys’s story is completely separate from the main one through the series. The smug face she carries on her face for so much time (especially S4)… that look seems “I’m better than everyone as I’m blood of the dragon”
Her story is separeted because she was exiled, there was no way she would have been able to start her long journey, learning how to be a ruler in Westeros.
She started with nothing, she was a scared girl, running from one place to the other in orther to survive (Viserys was called the beggar King), was abused by her brother, sold and bought, raped, finally having some kind of happiness only to lose everything again (her husband, her son). Her childhood and the things she went through in the first season is what makes her sympathize with the “common people” and specially the slaves (she knows first hand what it means to be sold and brought). Even when she was a khaleesi, she didnt like the way women and slaves were mistreated, in her final speech in S1 she said the ones who stayed by her side would do it as brothers and sister, husband and wives, she wanted to make things better.
From there she went from wanted to rush to get the Iron Throne, to understand that first she had to learn how to rule (“how can I rule seven kingdoms if I can’t control a single city?”).
She has a temper (that does not make her mad) she can be ruthless with her enemies, but she was at war, and fighting for a noble cause. She learned to listen before act, understood she can’t always have it her way and in her position difficult decisions sometimes need to be made, even if she didn’t like them. So many people say she is obsessed with the throne, but forget how many things she has sacrificed for the greater good that actually put her away from Westeros and the throne (she was fully committed to ending slavery,she chained her own dragons, married someone she loathed, reopended the fighting pits, etc).
I enjoy Dany’s tender scenes the most and I’m not fan at all of her “badass” scenes
I also enjoy those scenes the most too, because it shows that beneath that hard or “smug” exterior, she has a good heart and remains vulnerable despite that mask she puts on to deal with her enemies.
I think she is the best ruler because she has years of learning how to rule, understands what it means to be a Queen, not just power, not just a pretty crown, she has her priorities stright.
She has gone through many phases over the years, from a shy and frightened girl, to a strong leader, from ruthless with her enemies and temperamental to conciliatory. I think she is in a good place now.
P.S: english is not my first language, sorry if I misspelled much.
I’m expecting this to be more like a traditional TV season, with an “A” plot (Dany & co vs Cersei & “friends”) and a “B” plot (Winterfell internal politics). That logic suggests the two plots will intersect by season’s end, but the “A” plot will get most of the time and attention.
Ellie,
Aegon I may have been a good king (although it’s debatable when it comes to Dorne) but he still came to Westeros and proclaimed himself a king, forcing everyone to submit to his rule and killing thousands of people who rebelled against him. That’s something I don’t admire at all. I don’t like when people feel more worthy… and I’m disgusted by Targaryen’s incest practice, another reason why I don’t ship Dany/Jon (to think some people even approve their relationship because the blood has to “remain pure). It’s a proof of their feeling for superiority. Targaryens conquered the Kingdoms and Robert conquered the Kingdoms when a madman was ruling it… Robert was no less worthy of a throne in my opinion, and I don’t see why Dany should be “the one” for the throne. Also, Rhaegar married a Martell only because he had no siblings. Daenerys as a character gave me no reason to root for her as I don’t like her screen presence in most of the cases… there is a wall between her and me in most cases and I don’t watch GoT to see her suceed. Her character gives me zero “feelings” compared to many others, with only two scenes being remotely close to that.
And hiding a tender side behind a smug exterior… a character has to give me a reason to like them while I’m watching the show and Dany gives me little to none. And that smug exterior is still present on screen, something I really don’t like when it comes to people in general.
Ellie,
BTW. English is not my native language either.
Good old Anguy! I’d forgotten about that lovable lug. Here’s hoping he’s in the fight scene seen in the second trailer.
Maybe him and the Hound will bond amidst the carnage and afterwards open a quaint little B&B together. But there I go fan-ficting again. 😉
These criticisms are funny coming from a Sansa fan. Let’s see, Dany is arrogant, full of herself and has a smug face? How about Sansa last season who went around arrogantly demanding that Lord Glover fight for her and her smug face in every scene acting as if she knows better than anyone else?
Westeros is Dany’s home – from where she had to flee because the Lannisters,Starks and Baratheons slaughtered her family, including little babies, and would have killed her as well. She has every right to reclaim her home just as Starks reclaimed Winterfell.
So what if Dany’s story is completely separate from the main story? So was Jon’s. These are main characters that the story is moulding into leaders and rulers.
You admire Sansa’s internal strength, but her hardships are nothing compared to what Dany has gone through – to spend her entire childhood with an abusive brother hiding from assassins, getting sold to the Dothraki, getting raped, losing a child and a husband – that she was able to overcome all those by herself and get to where she is by actively working on her goals shows her immense strength of mind.
But of course, Sansa fans like to dismiss characters like Dany and Jon as being uninteresting, ignore their complex character dynamics and story arcs as being boring because it’s not part of the main story.
Acting? Emilia Clarke is a decent actress and she is pretty damn good in giving inspiring speeches and carrying entire conversations in made up fake languages. Sophie Turner’s monotonous, petulant tone last season pretty much ruined all the scenes up North for me. So acting is also pretty much subjective.
We are going to see more complaints from a certain section of Sansa fans as the story moves back to focus on the important characters – Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Jaime, Cersei, Arya – all the promotion this season and last season may have mistakenly given some fans the impression that the story revolves around Sansa – no it does not.
Of course the first few episodes are going to be named based on Dany’s return to Westeros – fans have been waiting for this for nearly 20 years! It’s the event of the year! She’s finally here and that’s cause for celebration in itself.
This. You nailed it.
Dany is a dangerous megalomaniac at this point. She crucifies innocents, she burns people alive and enjoys it, she keeps wanting to destroy cities and slaughter people until Tyrion reigns her in.
She murdered all the Dothraki leaders, burned down their sacred temple and destroyed their power structure. What’s going to happen if/when she conquers Westeros ? She’ll obviously stay there, and presumably the Dothraki will go back to Essos to be with their families. Who will lead them then ? She completely up-ended their society so that they could go die for her in a foreign war.
What about Slaver’s Bay ? She just went in, changed everything, and now she expects Daario to somehow create a democratic system out of the ashes she’s left behind ? Realistically speaking, the social unrest and chaos would be unending.
She’s a terrible ruler, and a cruel, vicious woman.
People who think she’s a great leader are delusional. The only thing she’s good at is giving rousing speeches and killing.
Did Emilia killed your dog or something? She is not playing Rose or Shae, is Daenerys Targaryen one of the main characters of the book/show… you make it sound like Richard Madden, Charles Dances, etc lose their job because they have to pay Emilia WTF!
Ellie,
Having years of experience ruling doesn’t automatically make you a good ruler. Walder Frey, Joffrey, Cersei, and others also had power for years.
The point is that Dany’s decisions have been poor for years, and she hasn’t improved. On the contrary, she’s embraced the Targaryen motto of fire and blood more than ever.
Dany was a good person for the first three seasons, now not so much.
SerNoName,
You make many good points, but I think the answer is somewhere in between the two positions.
BOTH Sansa and Dany have become insufferable and smug. It’s not a matter of one of them being good and righteous and the other being arrogant and misguided.
They have both been acting pretty arrogant and misguided.
Wow! What a load of nonsense! What show have you been watching?
I am guessing you are a Jon fan? Lol!
Poor Dany is going to get it this season from angry Jon fans who want all the focus to be on their KITN, angry Queen in the North Sansa fans who want the show to be all about Sansa’s rise to power because of her amazing internal strength, Jon x Sansa shippers who are going to lose it when Jon and Dany make eyes at each other.
I am preparing to enjoy all the bitter tears! Sorry guys, but Dany is a main character, she is one of the good guys, she is a protagonist and now that she is finally in Westeros – we are going to get a lot more of her – If I am guessing I would say that Dany will have the most screen time this season.
Well I do have to say I enjoy the tears of salty Dany haters. There’s just something particular about the female characters in this series (particularly Sansa, Dany, and poor dead Catelyn). ITs like…. why do people feel the need to whine just because there are Dany centric episode titles or interviews with sophie? Grow up.
Lord Parramandas,
Well, it’s not as if Aegon woke up one morning and said “Hey, I’m gonna conquer Westeros because of reasons”. There is a whole story behind his decision, that you apparently didn’t read (I recommend “The world of ice and fire”, if you are interested in knowing the reasons).
Every House in Westeros think they are the most worthy, that is why they are always at war.
Incest was a pretty common practice for important families in Westeros (Tywin was married to his cousin, for instance), so I see no problem with Daenerys/Jon.
Robert was a terrible king, so yes, Daenerys is way more worthty.
Obviously you have a blind hate for Daenerys, so I’ll leave you to it.
For my part, I can’t wait to see more about Dany this season.
Lord Parramandas,
Your hypocrisy is hilarious. Weren’t you the one on a thread last week, of Sophie spewing D&D baseless fanfic in an interview, complaining about people’s negativity? Making such a fuss about it, you stated you had never seen such hatred and it was really concerning to you…
Now here you are on a thread complaining about Dany. Go figure. So is it only ok for you to post complaints about the characters you don’t like while the rest of us need our Game of Thrones fandom cards revoked for complaining about the weakest link in the show??? If that ain’t the pot calling the kettle black, I don’t know what is…
Anyway, it seems like you’re a fan just like the rest of us. You have characters you like and dislike and apparently you dislike some of the decisions the show runners make as well. But don’t worry, I’m sure that all of the show titles don’t refer to Dany alone. We have 2 queens in Westeros now and maybe both will be delivering some justice. And who knows, maybe there will be a parallel between the justices they hand out that might show Dany may be just as cold and ruthless as Cersei.
And don’t forget in Euron’s first scene on the show, he said “I am the storm” (definitely his best line of dialogue and a badass intro of him balancing on the bridge without grabbing the ropes as it swayed). So episode 2 title may be more about him than just about Dany alone? As for “Dragonstone”, I’m guessing it’s mostly referring to Dany but Jon could also mention it as a place to go get dragon glass. So it could have multiple references as well.
Karenchasez,
I admit my words were a bit over dramatic from what I was trying to say. its difficult to explain directly but as one of my friends explained
“imagine if Imelda Staunton, the lady who plays Umbridge in Harry Potter, could not quite cut it as a bad guy so they killed off Mcgonagall and gave Umbridge all her lines, then had all the people Umbridge was supposed to kill, (although I don’t remember her killing anyone directly) die early so she would not have to kill them and to give Prof. Umbrigonagall more screen time”
“Then all of your friends who have not read the books keep talking about how awesome of a headmistress Umbridge is (because she took Mcgonagall’s part)”
Professor Trelawney and the Weisly’s and all the other minor characters Umbridge terrorized might not seem all that important to the story but it would still stink if you had a soft spot for those minor characters and those actors lost their job so someone could do an “alternative facts” version of the Character she has been assigned.
once again its difficult to explain, and I don’ hate her its more just I do not trust her with the character and I would prefer watching other story lines. And apparently the Tyrell’s were killed to give other characters more screen time and as of now who looks like the person who got the lions share of that vacated screen time?
If I were queen for a day there would be a rule “write everyone elses story lines first then when that is done write Dany’s, and make her as nice and stoic as you want, without effecting the other story lines”
Dany’s visitor is probably Davos, sent by Jon to negotiate the North’s submission to Dany’s rule in exchange for help in fighting the White Walkers
Geralt of Rivia,
I’m surprised that there has not been much speculation as to the possibility of Cercei literally giving a gift back to the giver. (Beyond those dragon cuff links) I’m not sure that it’s any more likely than a euphemism for revenge, but it could be her returning something offered to her by Euron as part of a marriage proposal. I am assuming that will be her ally going forward, but marriage to Euron seems like a risky bet, and Cercei may not be as clever as she thinks she is, but she is power hungry and not stupid (well, except for the thing with the HS and the FM…) At the same time, why would she refuse a marriage to him in the same episode that Jaime wizenes up?
The other thing that interests me is the possibility of the unexpected visitor to Dany being
. It could also easily be the Sandsnakes, Lady Olenna or Varys.
Queenofthrones,
We all know the real reason behind that hate: Jon Snow.
Daenerys being his potential first real consensual relationship? Must be butchered!
Sansa taking the spotlight and having a disagreement with Jon? Must be taken down!
Sophie giving an opinion that doesn’t paint a halo in Jon’s head? Kill her at sight!
The articles’ ‘returning cast members’ list forgot to mention Gemma Whelan (Yara Greyjoy).
Just sayin’ 🙂
Lol, did a post about episode titles really turn into a Dany/Emilia bashing thread merely because some people think the titles are too Dany centric?? I know it shouldn’t surprise me but holy s***! 😂😂😂
Last season she had one title named after her and it was an episode that hardly even featured her (Blood of My Blood). They’re just titles…
I second that 😉
It was pretty obvious that the episode titles (not only the first, but the second and third also!) would finally be revealed. Quite why Jack Bauer 24 got so wound up over this beats me 😉
TBH, it wouldn’t have bothered me if they were just called ‘Episode 1 – 2 – 3’ etc. More info is gleaned from the brief description HBO give than from the episode title.
So Jack, you can finally chill out without pissing off the Mods and many other people on WotW with your endless posts about the lack of episode titles 😀
Tessa-Rose Davidson,
Imagine if Harry Potter took your favorite nerd Hermione, filled with awkwardness, bad hair, buck teeth, and an overeagerness to be the brainiest person in the room and turned her into a glamourpuss superstar with amazing hair and ridiculous badassery, giving her all of Ron’s lines whenever he happened to have particular insight into the wizarding world? And no one knew what you meant by a Hermione Hair Day?
Oh, back on topic, right? I hope Ed Sheeran is playing Ron Weasley. He looks just like Ron, especially here. 😉
Ginevra,
Exactly, you don’t necessarily hate Emma Watson you just wish the people doing the adapting would stop playing favorites and turning the story into their own high budget fan fic (which I admit D+D have more a reason to do since the books are not finished)
also I have always found it a bit strange that Emilia Clark used to always say she loved “devouring” the books and “sinking her teeth into the character” when hate it or love it she definitely plays a character quite different than the book character.
One thing that is missing, Dany seems to have no Dothraki inner circle person. Without Daario , there is no Dothraki ‘captain’ (even tho Darrio was not Dothraki).
Neither Ornela or Qhono (I think that’s the guy) who were at Dany’s feet in episode 4 show up again in S6. Even tho one should have been in that Dothraki mass in E6.
They seemed the closest Dothraki left, at least the befriended Ornela.
Are they gonna just leave Edmure Tully’s story hanging or forgotten?
Well that has done that before with main line characters , odd since indications are that Yara as a character has as large a role this season as she had in 6 if not more.
Yes it did. Incredible. Emilia Clarke is such a delightful, funny, and down to earth young woman. I have no problem with her acting. If anyone has a problem with her dialogue, she didn’t write it. And personally, I enjoy her scenes in which she’s speaking in High Valyrian or Dothraki.
Of course this turned out to be a dany/Emilia bashing thread ..
Tessa-Rose Davidson,
Ginevra,
And when did something Like that happened with dany ..
Do provide some of the lines that dany stole from other characters …or screentime which she stole from other characters …
That was one of the most ridiculous comparison I have ever seen..
And then we will come and complain that dany story is isolated and boring and it will be interesting when she interacts with other storylines and characters …
But then when she she do we will complain about how she is being given more screentime and salary ..
What ever the show does we will complaint because we hate the character and actress blindly and will not even raise the issue of poor writing decisions that actually impact the portrayal…
dragonbringer,
I wasn’t bashing. The point I was attempting to make is that no adaptation is perfect. We all see characters and the stories differently, you and I especially so, Dragonbringer, and so it only makes sense that D&D interpret the stories differently as well. I think we should give them a great deal of latitude, which is not to say I won’t lament some losses, but all in all, I think they are doing such an unbelievably awesome job.
Honestly the real driving force for this season is the Great War. The war against the dead. Yes I am thrilled to see Danny finally get to Westeros but don’t forget what is really important. Winter is here.
Flayed Potatoes,
Iam fine..thank you just had few works to take care of..
Its very clever of the show runners…
Always give dany a scene wher she gives speech and people following her and have a guy kneel to her …and have episode title named after her and give a scene at the end of the episode…
Then you can do all the butchering to that character but no one will notice that because people will think and complian that dany gets more popular and screentime and badass speeches and episode titles and blah blah
What happened to all the decisions and ruling that showed dany as intelligent and capable despite being put in a situation you can’t win and prone to make mistakes…. Sure we will give those to tyrion because he is the smartest guy in the planet and
Justify it by saying
” you are a conqueror and not a ruler”
And what happens when it cones to conquering..tyrion will again go ” oye,didn’t you get the memo …you just have to act like what I say even during a conquest because iam the brain something you doesn’t have…otherwise I will use the aerys card again and people will think you are mad as your father ” …
And it wouldn’t even be irritating or annoying for us dany fans it stopped right there. …no just no we have to come and see the complaint of dany is perfect and snowflake and stealing other characters lines and screentime and getting preferences from the producers so that other characters like tyrion playing second fiddle to her…when every thing that happens is opposit of that ..
Lol now the thread includes bashing Jon. Who else do we want to add. Calm down people it is a show relax.
Ginevra,
Ia not saying you were doing the bashing. ..
But I did ask you can you point out when something similar like you mentioned with Emma Watson and Hermione actually happened to dany or Emilia Clarke. ..
I can present you the number of times peter dinklage and ian glen had taken lines and story arcs of dany and Emilia because they are most prominent and senior actors …
Ian glen and jorah is most notable when it comes to the books and show…
Can you do the same for Emilia and dany ..
Why is it necessary to polarize to this degree? Why can’t you accept the possibility that Dany is not a favorite character for some readers/viewers, without leaping to the extreme conclusion that such readers/viewers ‘hate her blindly’? Lord Parramandas gave some some pretty solid reasons why he hasn’t warmed to the character. I gave some as well. Doesn’t mean that we’re ‘haters,’ or that our lack of appreciation for your personal favorite is irrational or mean. Everybody enjoys different things about the story.
Because I have in past seasons enjoyed Dany’s screentime less, for the most part, than the Westerosi part of the storyline, I am admittedly among those feeling a little nervous about the possibility of the last two seasons being overly (for my tastes) focused on her. Time will tell if those trepidations are warranted or not. Perhaps I will enjoy Dany better when she is interacting with characters in whom I am more emotionally invested. I’ve already liked her scenes with Tyrion, but that’s mainly because Tyrion is one of MY favorites. I can ignore Emilia’s acting, which I find limited, and focus on Peter’s, which I find superb.
Really, this doesn’t need to come down to flame wars over whose favorite character (or actor) is the best. We each enjoy different things. I wish you joy of your additional time with Dany/Emilia this season. But I am entitled to my tastes and feelings too. I’ve said it before here, and I’ll say it again: There’s room in this sandbox for all of us geeky kids.
Lord Parramandas,
And you get upset when sansa or Sophie gets hate …the hypocrisy in your posts is unbelievable..
Dany getting Overwhelming love from the fandom..which fandom in LFU lol …wake up and if you go see any ASoiaF/GoT fandom you will see dany is most hated or one of the most hated even villains of this show is not hated that much …
Some flawless character – you know what’s best in this complaint especially …people usually say how dany is flawless and then go on to point out her mistakes and flaws in the show…i guess thats why the show runners and actors and characters in her storyline keep criticizing and questioning her to her face. ..
at least some characters have stark name as their last name to get more fans and to be perceived as good …I wonder dany being the most loved and flawless character is what that makes her most divisive character in the story
I guess that’s also why she gets so much less lines and screentime even than that of say oberyn and hound and other secondary characters …
What’s so surprising and scaring that one of the major protagonists getting more screentime or episode titles ..
You know what let’s see what actually happened in the past
Mhysa – last 3 to 4 mins of the episode ..
Breaker of the chains – again last 5 mins of the episode…
Blood of my blood – again another 3 to 4 minutes of the episode …
You and others really should really be scared by this …
Jaehaerys the Icedragon,
I expect Dragonstone to be discussed by Jon quite a bit in the first episode as that’s the only know place to have an abundant supply of dragonglass.
All the three titles, while obviously relating to Dany, have multiple meanings.
This is going over the line into paranoia, I’m afraid. It really, truly does not serve the tone of the discussion for people to get into ‘one-downsmanship’ arguments over whose favorite is the most persecuted character on the show.
Ellie,
Of all the people hating on Dany in this thread, not one is a Jon fan. Please stop with such generalisations. It’s the automatic reaction of so many Dany fans. The moment she faces any criticism, legitimate or otherwise, blame it on crazy Jon fans.
What we are trying to point out is that comments like this are pretty rich coming from a poster like Lord Parramandas who jumps into discussions about Sansa and tries to mute any criticism of the character by calling other posters ‘haters’ . It’s funny that when the discussion is about the Dany, he/she is the first person to jump in with the ‘hate’ – the hypocrisy is what is being highlighted.
Lord Parramandas is disgruntled that the first 3 episode title appears to be about Dany. Why? Dany is one of the important characters in the show and her arrival in Westeros after 6 seasons, 5 books and 20 years is surely something that should be highlighted? Lord Parramandas instead wants more focus on Sansa because he/she finds Sansa to be the more interesting character – these things are subjective opinions as I point out above. Many viewers find Dany equally interesting.
As for criticisms about Dany being arrogant, entitled, smug etc.? – Well that was pretty much Sansa all of last season. So criticizing Dany for all these attributes and then calling anyone a ‘hater’ for daring to call Sansa the same? Reeks of hypocrisy.
LOL! This!
If I were someone who didn’t enjoy Dany’s storyline, I’d be looking forward to the episodes that are named after her; at least I’d know to turn off my tv 5 minutes ahead of time.
SerNoName,
I really don’t see the point of perpetuating ad hominem arguments here. We all have different preferences and are fully entitled to them. We should each be able to make a case for our point of view without the discussion instantly degenerating into overgeneralization and trying to stick each other into pigeonholes. The world is a more interesting place for being full of a rich diversity of tastes and opinions, in my view. Those of us who aren’t keen on Dany are ‘entitled’ to such an opinion – as are, equally, those who aren’t keen on Sansa or Jon or whomever. Not enjoying a particular character or characterization does not make a person a ‘hater,’ and it disturbs me when the rhetoric drops to that level.
Firannion,
Because its exactly what it it is…
And I didn’t respond to your comment or lord parramendas comment right when you are pointing out those things. ..I was going to respond to your comments but you got ahead of me ..I will come to your comments in the next comment…
Your critcisms which by the way also my criticism of the show and writers for not doing the same thing And rather than telling us dany is worthy ruler and leader show us like they do in the books …
Do you remember last years conversation where you used to single me out and ignore the comment which I was actually replying to…
Again I see you are doing the same thing labelling me as someone who can’t take criticisms and not being OK with my favorite character doesn’t get all the love…
But you are not speaking aginst the comment which I was actually replying to…
If you say that was a fair criticism that characters gets killed of so that Emilia can get their pay and have her stealing the storyoines or lines from other characters.then more power to you. ..
I don’t care dany is hated in the story ..but I do find its ridiculous people pointing out the flaws and mistakes and then sayshe is most flawless and snowhite of all characters …
I do find it ridiculous that people say I should be understandable and Accept that dany is not loved by everyone but why shouldn’t the same people understand that not everyone dislike or hate dany and there are people who like the character…why act as all surprised …
I do find its ridiculous that people say she is entitled when everyone in the story is entitled..sansa feels entitled to winterfell and tyrion feels entitled to casterly rock ..and the same way dany feels entitled to westeros…why even start a series about monarchy and wars between those ruling families if they don’t like entitlement…
Like you say there are room for everyone in this story …if you don’t like then just skip the thing you don’t like and ignore it..
Especially if you don’t like it when its happening towards your favorite because I expect them to be more understanding and ignore and not do the exact thing for other character and actor they don’t like ..
Firannion,
Maybe iam paranoid but I do see the places of the fandom and polls conducted in those places from westeros to watchers to winter is coming to reddit to 4chan to youtube to back me up …what do you have to prove me wrong….
I just like how you always try to play a fair judge but always target those who only like dany but completely gloss over the comments which they are actually replying to..I have never seen you say something against those who make ridiculous comments at dany/Emilia ..no one is saying dany/emilia should be loved by all and how dare you can have a difereent opinion or dislike dany or hate her ….its not us who expressed the surprise at the love dany/Emilia gets..so maybe you should tell the others people will have different opinion and you can’t express surprise that there are people who actually love dany and like it or not she is the one of the major protagonists so she should likely get some screentime and focus due to that fact…
Maybe you can use her screentime for bathroom breaks and other stuffs and let those people who enjoy the scenes actually enjoy it ..
SerNoName,
Exactly …
Jay Targ,
I know right??? Sounds like such a easy and simple thing to do …
Maybe people are looking exactly for something like this …you know someone with a power who can stop all this endless civil wars and tearing up the realm so swiftly …
People are already fighting for what’s theirs ..their lands are being destroyed and fields are burned ….raping and pillaging is done by almost every army from starks to lannisters…remember those soldiers that brienne killed ..
There is nothing dany to steal here because she already has most of her resources from essos…
Again it depends upon the situation…. To me fire and blood is exactly what is needed to westeros right now. …I would have been more critical of dany conquering westeros when the series started and the state of westeros back then…but now westeros needs someone like dany and she is bringing the fire during the winter …
Talking about dothraki how long do you think it will take people to realize that they may not be that different to those soldiers of great houses or maybe not that bad as they were made out to be because now they are under their Khaleesi of Khals..
Luka Nieto,
I for one would have loved “Jelmazmo ” than “stormborn” ..
But I guess the common tongue is used because of the Euron storm thing
And Jon saying something about how Nk bringing the storm to whoever is revolting against him ..
Speaking of storm and stormborns ..
I guess this should answer who or what is third lie dany is supposed to slay. .
1)Stannis being fake AA to hide Dany’s
2)YG claiming to be a dragon and last heir to the targs while its dany who is a true dragon..
3) euron claiming to be storm and riding dragons via horn and valyrian steel armor ..while dany is actually stormborn and riding dragons and who will eventually get the horn .
Does anyone else think the “gift” Cersei returns could be Myrcella’s necklace? The one the Martell’s sent to her after Oberyn’s death? Not sure how the necklace itself would come into play but maybe she’ll mention it before killing Ellaria (after Euron brings she and a sand snake or two to KL)?
Maybe I’m reaching. EIGHT DAYS you guys.
Sean C.,
I have a feeling it might have been delayed because at some point she, Tyrion and Jon will have an exchange about the fact that all their mothers died in childbirth. There are several instances where (to me anyway) D&D seem to have omitted important information that might manifest as important later. Off the bat, two other instances I can think of are 1) the omission of the third part of Maggy the Witch’s prophecy and 2) Brienne not telling Sansa the identity of “the man” with whom Arya was traveling.
Wolfish,
But there are many instances from dany’s storyline that they have not touched ..not only dany’s birth but they have not yet mentioned House with red Door which is a big driving part of dany’s character…the naming of dragons …and so on
Ellie:
“english is not my first language, sorry if I misspelled much”
It continually astonishes me that many (if not most) of the people who post on this site are not native English speakers, and yet you manage to communicate far more clearly than 99% of Americans commenting on Facebook.
Luka Nieto,
I feel like one of the later episodes will be titled ” The Pack ” or ” lone wolf ” based on the trailer
Danny,
That’s why we are shown how dany is much of a military mind and capable in the books…
It will be very much fun to watch the show making dany and tyrion to do dumb things so that cersei gets there till the end of season or even survive the season ..
The Poop on the Wall
The Secons Poop
Poopkeeper
Poopbreaker
First of his Poop
I could go on for ages.
There is too much fun to be made 🙂
Hodors Bastard,
Not seamlessly there will be some tensions at the start because of the preconceived notions and reputations but with time iam sure the situation and state of westeros after war will lead them to those changes and adaptation by both westerosi and dothraki and even wildlings ..
Markus Stark:
A tad harsh, I would argue.
I’ve disagreed with a number of Dany’s decisions, but I still believe she’s a fundamentally good person. I do think some of her more rash and bloody actions have been taken out of both inexperience and desperation; she really wants to see former slaves leading fulfilling lives, but has no idea how to bridge the chasm between centuries (if not millennia) of slaveholding culture and all its ramifications, and her desire for the “instant gratification” of seeing the present generation of both former slaves and former slaveowners build a different society.
Imho, Dany’s struggles in Slaver’s Bay mirror the terrible history of European colonialism in the Western Hemisphere and African slavery. No “solution” to the problem has proved to be satisfactory. Slave rebellion in Haiti: 200+ years later, the country is still the most impoverished nation in the Western Hemisphere, and one of its most unstable. “Bloodless” phasing-out of slavery in Brazil (where the majority of Africans were sent): Endemic racism still grips the country, where its all-white cabinet does not in any way, shape or form reflect the fact that well more than half the population is of African or part-African descent. Civil war in the U.S., the country’s bloodiest (with more than 600,000 lives lost): Again, endemic racism still grips the country, and white-supremacist groups have enjoyed a resurgence in an incredibly hateful, divisive political climate.
I repeat: I don’t think Dany has lost her innate “goodness.” I think she acted first out of blind idealism (failing to see the slaveholding class, or “enemy,” as human), then tried reason on the advice of those around her (most notably Jorah, exiled for selling two poachers into slavery), then reverted back to terrible violence out of desperation. And if GRRM’s plot even remotely follows historical precedent, the former Slaver’s Bay will still be grappling with its terrible history long after Dany has returned to the dust from whence she came.
Jenny,
Lol its not me …I would have hoped something like that couple of seasons ago but I have has enough disappointments with the show I would not hope for such things. .
Wolfish,
Dany is basically that person …that’s why we are not seeing any representatives of dothraki …she is the one ruler who is united all the khalasars…she stops the rape and blood sports… She will make them see the ways of living is better than their previous way…
Boojam,
Doubtful. Walder had him locked back up in the dungeon, and Arya surely has not forgotten who was married before three members of her family and all their soldiers were slaughtered. I find it very interesting that hers is one of the storylines being kept tightly under wraps.
Firannion,
(clapping in the living room in the middle of the night)
Lord Parramandas,
This post is so much fun to read ..thank you for that..
why should anyone love or follow dany or think she is capable leader …
For me dany is intelligent and cunning ,she is ruthless when its needed …she is very clever but also self critical… She constantly questions herself and her decisions..
She is humble and She knows where she is lacking that is in the proper education and history…so she constantly questions and listens to what people has to say about the past …her questions will be about the something she doesn’t know and wants to learn ..she is always willing to learn new things and a quick learner ..
she has an excellent eye towards her surrounding …she watches and listens to the surrounding …she is a natural when it comes to leading and conquering …
She is compassionate and cares about her people …
She is dutiful and want to do the right thing of being last of her Great House ..
She is charismatic…she gives hope and feeling that people are worthy enough when they didn’t get the same respect or status from other characters …
She spent her childhood running from cities to cities ..living on the streets and literally as a begger and hence knows what’s its to be poor and hungry …to be a begger and to be a pawn in other people’s games. ..
She knows what its like to be hunted..
She knows that Queenship is not a right but a duty towards the people and her family …
Even though she didnt have a proper education by a septa …she has the right ideas when it comes to ruling and what’s its to be a Queen…
Like she knows she as queen must listen to all her advisors ..
Like she knows that she as a queen she should be protecting those who can’t protect themselves …
Like she knows she as a queen should put her people first and sacrifice for them ..
Like she knows its her duty to her people and her personal wishes should not come before that …
She makes everyone in her council speak up their thoughts and listens to each and everyone of them…
Dany’s story has always been “damned if you do or damned if you don’t”…she always gets to have two worst possible choices out there but after having heard all her council speak up …she will come up with a third alternative which will be less damaging and damning than those two choices that were present …
She actually respects those who are around her and cares for her…value their advice even though they are just some ordinary men with no powerful blood or family ties .
She doesn’t mock or bully people her people or those who are around her. I guess you are confusing dany with someone else .
And even after all this ..she still remains the same good heated and caring like we have seen her in the first chapter and just want a simple life with a family and a house with the red door
Now is that all shown in the TV show is a question that should be asked…
dragonbringer:
Unlike several other regulars, I don’t see the Dothraki as simply bloodthirsty savages. As hard as they are, even they have codes of honor by which they live, such as the prohibition on weapons in Vaes Dothrak. And it has always grated on me that Dany and Drogo’s wedding night was changed in the adaptation; in the book Drogo was gentle with her, which made it far more believable that she eventually fell in love with him. The interpretation by D&D unfortunately took the Luke-and-Laura route, which left an exceedingly sour taste in my mouth.
(Since you might not be American and/or might be too young to remember, Luke & Laura were a very popular couple on the soap opera “General Hospital” in the 1980s, and their rather questionable “romance” began when he raped her. Uuuggghhh.)
You make an excellent point about the Dothraki being no different in warfare from many of the soldiers of the great houses of Westeros; the scene with the hanged prostitutes (“They lay with lions”) has always been deeply affecting to me. My main concern about them isn’t the rape-and-pillage part, which as you noted, would be no different from what Westerosi soldiers have been doing. It’s the peacetime adjustment to Westerosi society, where the only people with whom they might have anything in common are the Ironborn, who have promised to stop their reaving ways, and the Free Folk, of whom very few are left.
Lord Parramandas,
There could also be some connection to or mention of the “stone dragon” part of the Azor-Ahai-reborn prophecy (for the first time on the show?), although it seems kind of unlikely for a season premiere.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Stone_dragon
dragonbringer:
I do realize that that’s what she’s trying very hard to do; however, I think the adage that “change comes from within” is very pertinent here. Why did the U.S. fail so miserably in Iraq? Because among many other things, the idea of democracy is not something that can be either 1) easily exported or 2) imposed upon a population (the latter completely negates the very idea of what “democracy” is, but don’t get me going on George W. Bush’s failings). My point is: No matter how humane and beneficial Daenerys’s ideas might ultimately be, the Dothraki will not unquestionably accept them for the simple reasons that 1) she’s a foreigner and 2) they’re culturally alien to them. I believe that ultimately, for the Dothraki remaining in Essos (that is, the vast majority of them), it will take one of their own to unite them under a different system of governance and/or moral guidance and economic sustainability. That person might be someone who learns from Daenerys’s example (or the Westerosis’ example), but the important thing is for that person to be a Dothraki. As the common idiom states, “Better the devil you know than the one you don’t.”
I know right? This is hilarious. The paranoia is real.
Reading these comments like… https://media.giphy.com/media/JXkmnUV3zwXx6/giphy.gif
Wolfish,
Yeah iam not an American so I don’t know about Luke and laura…
But dany’s wedding night happens to be something that I can easily agree with show version..
GRrm doesn’t like to have rape scene for the POV character and after that wedding night drogo just goes raping her to the point where she wants to attempt suicide ..which would have been difficult to portray in the show..
But the show’s take made sense dany making drogo convert and change and she adapting to the new life and taking control of it …
As for setting down at peace time..
Dothraki are coming from the same place where the first men to westeros came…
The dothraki relied on raids and pillaging becuse the land that they were surrounded by great grass sea didn’t offer them much than that…iam sure the lands of westeros will offer more and these dothraki will learn to live and change to their new way of life …after all they already changed in many ways …
They are being lead by Women
The same women made them travel across poison water
The same women made them to stop their raping and enslaving ..
So this too must and will happen with time…
Oh dear I hope not. I don’t want him to become Gendry 2.0
dragonbringer,
Such beautiful passages, I really wish they kept some of that in the show so purely show watchers could see what kind of person Dany really is.
Flayed Potatoes,
I wonder though how Gendry has the row boat memes, what memes they’d use for Edmure
If it was called Battles of the Bastards it would have been forbiddingly spoilery.
Wolfish,
Well I would have agreed with you if you have said this about dany in meeren …
But I don’t consider dany as an outsider to the dothraki…she changed her way of life and adapted to dothraki culture ..she felt it as her second home…
She is a dothraki and even dothraki view her as a part of them …you can see that in her handmaidens and blood riders …she prays the horse god along with her seven new gods of westeros ..
she only went against them in some of the rules like widows staying in vaes dothrak or blood games and raping and enslaving..
What makes you think that there are dothraki left behind at essos …
The dothraki follow their TsWMTw to the end of the world …
Mel,
A flying fish.
The Sybian,
dragonbringer,
As I wrote before, I don’t see the Dothraki as mindless savages. The ones following Daenerys have made enormous changes, as you note: following a woman, crossing the “poison water,” promising to give up rape and enslavement (as Yara/Asha agreed to stop the Ironborns’ reaving ways). I do not doubt that the Dothraki who came all this way with Daenerys can learn to live differently. But making the transition from a semi-nomadic raiding and/or hunting-and-gathering life to land ownership and agriculture is monumental (to say the least!). I don’t know that with only 13 episodes left, we’ll have much time to deal with such post-War for the Dawn details. But as another commenter (alas, I forget who) wrote a few days ago on another thread, in many ways GRRM has created an anti-Lord of the Rings—not because there’s anything “wrong” with LotR (there really isn’t), but because it’s a very different sort of story; said commenter noted that GRRM always wanted to see Aragorn dealing with the day-to-day challenges of ruling, such as writing and enforcing taxation laws. The Dothrakis’ transition from a primarily raiding and war-mongering culture to one based on agriculture and either 1) property ownership or 2) fiefdom will echo the greatest turning point in human history itself, from being hunter-gatherers to being farmers… and all the ramifications thereof.
But I’m full of whiskey and pontificating now. Thank you for the pleasant conversation.
SerNoName,
dragonbringer,
Jaehaerys the Icedragon,
Ellie,
I must say I wonder if you even read my comments… first of all, I’m NOT a Dany hater. I praised her several times in S6 reviews and as I said many times, I really try to warm up to her as it’s pointless if I would just dislike the character as that would mean I would dislike the show as well. Providing some of my own quotes:
S06E04: First of all, I’m not much of a Daenerys fan and certainly not a fan of “badass” Daenerys (season 3) but I can say, that I was really satisfied with her storyline. There was no “Drogon ex machina” and no “Stallion who mounts the world”. Daenerys managed to come up with her own plan with some help of ser Jorah and Daario, which didn’t involve dragons. My only issue with this scene is the death of khal Moro. I really liked this character and even in this scene, there was a contrast between him (A traditionalist) and other khals (more nasty ones): And another thing about nudity, it was just like Emilia said last year: She is willing to do a nude scene if it advances the storyline. So the “no nudity” clause has again proven false.
S06E05: I often say that I’m not a big Daenerys’s fan (I don’t hate her either) but if her scenes continue to be like this one, I may actually start to like her. So far, this was my favorite scene of her.
S06E09: First I can say, that I was pleasantly surprised by the resolution. I dreaded the “Fire & Blood” resolution and that Tyrion would play a role second to none in that. But thankfully, Tyrion reminded Daenerys of the Mad King Aerys and suggested a more refine plan. Yes, there were dragonfire and the dohtraki horde involved but it didn’t end with another civilization turned into dust. I can admit that when I first saw Drogon and the other two attacking the ships, I was like: “Wait, Fire & Blood will actually happen?” but a couple moments later I was: “Oh, they are burning the same ship. That could be it.” and thankfully I was right. I was even expecting the soldiers to turn on the noblemen but they just ran away and I can perfectly understand them. Why fighting in a war they cannot win?
S06E10: And then followed the scene with Tyrion. I said many times before that I’m not a fan of Daenerys (or maybe the actress) but a couple more of these scenes and I may actually start to like her. I’m sure that dreams of the many came true: Tyrion became Hand of the King, well in this case Hand of the Queen. I can say that I was happy, especially for Tyrion because he is currently my second favorite character and was my favorite for all previous seasons (currently the title is held by Sansa). And then followed even bigger dreams, that came true. Daenerys left the freaking Meereen and renamed the place as “Bay of the dragons”!
See? I could have been negative… or ignored her character all together, but I didn’t. And if I’m honest, if I wrote these reviews now during my current rewatch, I would have voiced several things differently… in even more significant positive way. And believe it or not, when I get to my S7 reviews, there will be no bashing of Dany. “Hate” word does not exist for me when I come to one of my favorite TV shows
Honestly, how many times have you seen me bash Daenerys on this site? Or any character to be honest? Do you even know what has drawn me to this site in the first place? I think this is the first time I even properly explained that I’m not much of a Dany fan and that’s because people asked me. My initial comment was that I’m a bit annoyed by the titles… and then I immediately tried to break the tension with another comment, trying to explain my points so you wouldn’t see me as Dany hater, because I’m not. And then people (more accurately Ellie) asked me why… and I explained it with many arguments, the “essay comments”. Trust me, it’s not a pleasure to write those comments… I would rather write why I like certain character. I wrote you everything I had in my mind and I tried to be respectful.
I do notice I forgot to include one bit in my Dany essay… “I try not to condemn her for her actions and rather understand her instead.” – I pointed out the reasons why I cannot really warm up to her, but I don’t condemn her for these actions… you won’t see me bash Daenerys using these traits. In fact, you won’t see me bash Dany at all.
And now another very important bit when it comes to my liking of characters… it’s not their actions in the story that play the main role in that, but the “internal feelings” I get from them. Like one of you pointed above, there are parallels between characters’ attitudes and behavior, Sansa and Daenerys. But Sansa’s presence on the screen gives me special feelings all the time while Daenerys does not… why? I’m not sure but as I said above, it could be the way how both actresses deliver lines. I warmed up to Sansa in S1 and I liked her all the time, “bonded” with her character and whenever I see her on screen, I get those internal feelings… Daenerys on other hand gives me way less of those feelings. Sure, there are several scenes that I do like her, but the character is more repulsive to me compared to Sansa. But again, I do NOT come to WotW to bash Daenerys as a character and I really do try to warm up to her, partially suceeding in S6 which included more of her tender scenes.
You may think whatever you like, but I’m not a hater at all and I was always positively aimed towards the show on this site, even defending the “happy fans” on several occasions because I will always prefer and defend a positive approach towards the show. “Mention what you dislike, but focus on what you like.” You may say “but the fansite cannot work if we’re only positive” but I was proven otherwise on several occassions. Sadly, I get a vibe from certain members that they enjoy discussing what they didn’t like more and as I said many times before, something feels different to me this year… something is missing when it comes to positive vibe compared to last year, where my hype was so high and the feelings this site gave me were so incredible. I praised this site on so many occassions as “the GoT fansite”. Here, on other fansites, to GoT fans I know for real life… but if this is how you will respond to those who prefer positive fan approach to the show and are generally never negative on the site, my opinion may as well change. Don’t make me regret writing this last year…
I want to thank everyone who contributed to this site, either in form of articles or the comments. I’ve never NEVER been so hyped for GoT episodes before and without this site, it would simply not be the same. Yes, there were some tense moments, especially with Markus and Chad during the season and there were moments when I thought I overestimated the site in terms of positivity. But at the end, the good outweighed the bad. Especially big THANKS goes to Dee for staying positive through the entire show. Again, THANK YOU ALL FOR UNFORGETTABLE EXPERIENCE and I can guarantee that Lord Parramandas and his reviews will return next year for next season (and off-season as well)!
Flayed Potatoes,
Haha Cersei the undisputed queen of gifs! Her gifs always kill me..
Firannion,
Are there book readers who don’t like Dany or Jon? I found that my friends who only watch the show had a hard time understanding the importance of these two characters. The first seasons Jon was just a sulky bastard who never said anything and Dany was the sad kid who got abused and learned to love herself better (or something). It took me 11 marathon days to devour this book series. I don’t know how many hours, but many more than the 73 we will get. If you read it you know all the things that are motivating these flawed (all of them) human beings. Jon never speaks in the books either but we have about 50 POV chapters. Same with Dany. These characters are very young. So are Kit Harington and Emilia Clarke. I think they are both getting better each season.
Thank you to point that out: as a Jon fan (most of all, I like many other characters as well), this is the exact reason I feel annoyed by Sansa and/or Dany fans, and I never feel the same from any other fanbase (not even Stannis fans).
I admit I don’t quite like Dany as a character: the reason is that I don’t agree with many of her decisions, AND I don’t like that she condems people for doing something yet she does the exact same thing. She was one of my favourites in S1 and book1, I liked her story more than I liked Jons (or Sansa’s), but ever since her dragons were born she changed in a way I may understand, yet I don’t quite approve of. That’s not a bad thing in itself, yet her fanbase seems to ignore all of her flaws, and if someone points them out (especially if they are compared to Jon’s, as their plotline is quite similar), all we get is: you are a Jon fan, so Dany must dieee! – and completely ignoring the real reason behind it.
As for Jon/Dany: I don’t ship them (ever since I read the first book after seeing the first season and figuring out R+L, I “ship” Jon/Arya, and I’m pretty sure we won’t get that). However I understand it is where the show is heading, it is pretty obvious for me, and if it is written well, I will have no problem with it at all. I’m not so sure about the books though, Jon is a completely different character there (much smarter), but even there I’m pretty sure they will hook up for some time, even if it’s not endgame.
Sansa: I never liked her that much, but I have warmed up to her lately (I enjoyed her book4 chapters). My opinion is: she is not supposed to be smart, like, at all. Nothing supports the idea that she became some master manipulator, and suddenly she has the insight to give advice to basically anybody about anything apart from songs and fashion.
Before I get the hate: I would have no problem with her being smart: I would have enjoyed her journey much more if I could have seen her learning path, successfully using methods of manipulation against her enemies and that would have really put her on equal grounds to someone like Jon (even the dumb show-version of him is more intelligent and willing to learn than Sansa).
And this is not a show-only thing, and definitely not because of her S5 plot: Up until now, she never managed to manipulate any enemies: her only achievements were against her family and friends (the Vale Lords believed what she said because she was Sansa Stark, and Royce have met her before – they were not her enemies; and the other one is Jon – a family member, who would have given his life to protect her, yet she failed to be honest with him)
So my main problem with her not that she is supposed to be smart, or that she isn’t smart; it’s not that she points thing out to Jon and she happens to be right – I would actually love that. My problem is, that I am supposed to believe she is smart, yet she had done nothing to prove she is, she is saying things to Jon that are supposed to be insightful advice or at least something useful, so when Jon ignores it she can be rightfully pissed – yet all her ignored advice worth nothing, or not supported by any evidence, so no wonder she is ignored.
On top of that, when it is pointed out by anyone, Sansa fans start Jon bashing, claiming, that our main problem with her is that she takes the spotlight from Jon. Well, that wouldn’t be a problem, if she would do something really useful (especially if not against Jon, who is right now the only person who truely loves her and want to protect her). Actually I wouldn’t mind if she was working against Jon, in a clever way: that would make her character more interesting than it is now.
Drogo’s khalasar alone counted 100 000 men and according to all sources, Dany acquired a khalasar of 100 000 men who will follow her to Westeros. So unless so many Dothraki died during the course of the series, I assume there are a lot more Dothraki left.
Wolfish,
I have always said that Show won’t be having time with this things and will not show us all details they will just gloss over it ..but we can assume what happens with how they are doing things….like how they ended the meereen arc…
Like I said I don’t think there are any dothraki left in the essos ..all of them followed their promised princess across the narrow sea of poison water..
One of the thjngs i find most fascinating thing is how people miss the context in which some of the things said in the interviews and then go on to build theories around it ..
GRRm did talk about how he didn’t satisfied with LOTr ending and wanting to know more about Aragon’s tax policy and such that …but he was talking about it with regards to dany time at meereen and how difficult it will be for her yo rule that place …
But people often forget or miss the later part
dragonbringer:
1) She has certainly adopted many parts of their culture very well (those she found palatable and morally acceptable to her), and a large number of Dothraki have found compelling reasons to follow her.
2) You write, “she felt it as her second home.” This is crucial: It’s “home” but not the only one, and not the primary one—not the one she’s trying to reclaim, not the one she’s convinced the Dothraki to cross the “poison water” for. Ultimately, there is both a well-traveled worldliness and a deep tragedy at Dany’s core: she feels both compelled and duty-bound to reclaim Westeros, while simultaneously being most closely connected to the Dothraki, with whom she shared her most formative experiences, while also returning, always, to the memory of the house with the red door in Braavos… a city not coincidentally, I’m certain, founded by escaped slaves. (Apologies for the Pynchonesque sentence.) She is both outsider and not, a person who will always exist at the crossroads. That is both a curse and a blessing.
3) Have you looked at a map and seen the size of the Dothraki Sea? It’s the equivalent of the Asian steppe. I still have a lot to learn about GRRM’s world, but given that King’s Landing alone has a population of 500,000, I estimate the population of Dothraki to be in the millions. As I wrote in an earlier comment (maybe in another thread?), my impression has always been that the Dothraki are based on the pre-Genghis Khan Mongols. There are lots and lots of them “left behind” in Essos.
Aszusz,
I’m both Jon and Sansa fan and I adore their mutual scenes. And when it comes to Sansa, I admire her internal strength, the way how she became hardened after so many years of suffering. Sure, she’s not LF or Cersei, she’s a young woman who makes mistakes. But she did achieve things, even if not intentionally… she planted the seed of doubt in Ramsay’s mind about him being/not being the heir, resulting him in killing Roose a couple episodes later and thus enabling Bolton army to meet on the field (which Roose would never do). And what I admire in this situation even more is that she was willing to taunt Ramsay even after all mistreatment. Then she managed to reach to Theon, causing him to abandon Reek persona. Sure, not in particulary nice way but she achieved something that seemed almost impossible. And then she tried to escape WF on her own, using the corkscrew she snatched during her walk with Ramsay… knowing what Ramsay is capable of, but still taking a chance. A sign of courage in my opinion. Yes, she’s brash, stubborn and confrontational, but she’s also hardened, determined and brave, capable of hard decisions and getting hands dirty. And family name means a lot to her, considering how she immediately started to plot liberation of WF, even though it was a very risky move that could mean the end of both her and Jon. Yes, she didn’t tell Jon about LF’s army, but she made a risky move of contacting LF and this army was a difference between life and death. And to think about, what could have happened if Sansa told Jon about the army and Ramsay accidently spotted it? He would barricade himself in WF and there would be no way to capture the castle. Sure, Sansa probably had her own reasons but the girl was through a lot and she did regret not telling about the army at the end, so she wasn’t as cold as some people assume her to be. She doesn’t need to be female LF in my opinion… she’s a person who makes mistakes but she did play quite a role when it comes to WF liberation, even if some of her acts were not intentional. Without her, Jon wouldn’t even try to recapture the castle.
And don’t forget the saying “You cannot drown in the Dohtraki sea as the horde will always find you”. So I assume the grassland is swarmed with various hordes and one khalasar usually counts thousands of people.
Aszusz:
Sansa has precious little “learning path.” And before I “get the hate,” allow me to clarify: imho, Sansa doesn’t act; she reacts. Everything she’s learned has been either because 1) she was expected to learn it (e.g., embroidery) or 2) she was essentially forced to learn it because a) someone spelled it out to her (e.g., the Hound [“Your father was a killer. Your brother is a killer. Your sons will be killers some day”]) or b) she was forced to learn in response to a perilous situation in which she was placed (e.g., how to “play” Littlefinger, to an extent, following her experiences with him in the Vale). Sansa doesn’t learn things because she’s naturally curious; she learns things if and when she must learn them.
Before I get flagellated… I do not dislike Sansa, and I certainly don’t hate her, as a number of people do. Having said that, I can’t relate to her either, chiefly because of her lack of curiosity.
Aszusz,
Ask any dany fan why you like her. They will say its because of her flaws and her making mistakes but learning from it…
It will get tiresome if people keep holding on to that flaws and mistakes and overblowing them and everything she does has bad and evil…this happens and people are not just blindly saying that.
Comparisons if done correctly no one will be against it….most of the times these comparisons are done so that it somehow makes Jon above dany and everyone…
Like when one compares dany sitting on a throne and Jon sitting on a chair …or how Jon is when he kills olly and how dany is when she kills khals ..
These are not the comparisons that are fair and just ..like when someone says jon is fighting for people but dany is fighting for power…
If people are being fair they would have compared dany’s ordering of mossadar death to that of Jon killing olly …
If people are being they would know that dany already fought for people and will do again …
Saying Jon doesnt care about IT unlike dany is something I find most ridiculous comparison…why does a bastard born of north care about IT unlike a Last surviving member of exiled family that ruled before…
These are just some of the comparisons that comes to my mind …there are many more of it…
The show and books always had these two characters parallel each other and I find them both equally fair and same balanced …but iam against those that are having Jon is great and above dany and vice versa( and just for the record saying dany is AAR/Tptwp doesn’t mean one is greater than the other )
Wolfish,
Exactly as I said above (except that I’m a big fan of Sansa and I can relate to her). She played a role and the story outcome wouldn’t be the same without her… she doesn’t need to be female LF, her own stubbornes was sometimes a benefit for her.
Lord Parramandas,
Thank you for the reminder!
Flayed Potatoes,
Mistress and Maestress.
Nancy Drew memes wouldn’t be recognizable, right?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CP7hwHQVEAAYdKb.jpg:large
Wolfish,
3) yes but iam going with what the author had set up in the series…
He had given us a prophecy about how the prince will unite them and lead them to the end of the world…
I don’t know about you I don’t think people will miss their chance to go with their TSWMTW and travel to the end of world. ..who would miss such journey from dothraki’s perspective …
He had specifically set up how the dothraki will one day unite in vaes dothrak as one single khalasar. .
He had givens us the visions of Crones bowing down to Dany beneath the mother of mountains. ..
And last but not least we have the letter of GRRm where he explicitly states that Dany will unite dothraki and lead them across the narrow sea ..
The scene in Blood of my blood is for exactly that reasons…she is making every rider from dothraki as her blood rider and follow her…
2) well exactly that’s what marks dany’s phases as a girl to women happens… As women will always have their second home with their husband’s …
Your point about dany’s home and feeling of outsider is why I care about dany …no matter where she goes she will always feel as an outsider and she will never get to find the house with red door…she may even die realizing that she will never have her house with red door. And that’s sad for me..
Lord Parramandas,
I would be bored af if Sansa became a “female Littlefinger,” or any watered-wine version of another character. Sansa is Sansa, a fully-fledged person in and of herself. And the fact that I, personally, can’t relate to her doesn’t make her a less rich, interesting, or worthy character. Tbh, one of the things I hate the most is reading/hearing complaints about characters with whom people can’t “relate.” So fucking what? (Pardon my language.) I can’t “relate” to Saner Half’s combat experience (he was in Beirut and knew many of the Marines who died in the 1983 barracks bombing). That doesn’t mean that I ought not try to empathize with it and understand how it fits into history, and 1) how I should deal with it as an individual, the spouse of a person who experienced the aftermath firsthand, and 2) how I should deal with it as a citizen, attempting to ensure that our military volunteers never find themselves in such a situation again.
But I digress.
As I’ve noted before, there are a number of things about D&D’s adaptation that have vexed me to no end. But the blind hatred for some characters, save the flat-out sociopaths or psychopaths such as Joffrey, Ramsay, and the Mountain, completely flummoxes me.
Wolfish,
Yes… I personally cannot relate to Dany. I wrote a lengthy comment above but it’s awaiting moderation so it’s not visible yet. Like I often say “Mention what you don’t like but focus on what you like.”
The Sybian,
LMAOOO!!!
(aging myself)
Mel,
Yeah I wish that were included too…at least those lines abut queenship and her duty…
If you like here are some more of the quotes from books which never made into show ..
Lord Parramandas,
Her character gives me zero “feelings” compared to many others, with only two scenes being remotely close to that.
I feel the same way. And we can’t help if we don’t feel a connection to any given person. That’s why it’s pointless to try and push one’s favorites onto others. For instance, I didn’t care for Sansa right from the scene with Joffrey, Arya and the stable boy. But I felt for her when she had to endure her father’s murder, being forced to look at his head, being hit by Trant etc. and I identified with her silly romantic notions of marrying Loras and her looking for friendship, advice from Margaery. But I do not like how she turned out because it looks as if any sweetness and humility once there is gone. I would have made different choices than she after going through all that. So I cannot relate to the woman she is now. And it bothers me how her face is unreadable a lot of the time. And when it is, it comes across as arrogant/smug. I think my dislike started full force in episode “The door” when they were plotting at the table in castle Black. I forget what it was said at the time, probably the lie about Blackfish, but she gave this haughty smirking look and I thought dang this girl’s gonna be trouble. Lol.
Lord Parramandas,
A long response I just wrote got lost in a computer glitch, so I’ve just been reminded: Write it in Word, Wolfish, and then save, copy, and paste it.
In short: Agreed, as there are very few characters I can really “relate” to, and of those, their “relatability” has far more to do with how much in common we had as children, and what is at the core of our understanding of the world and how we wish to deal with it.
Pretty much. Sansa is not pro-active. She is Jon’s princess in the tower waiting to be rescued. Dany and Jon appeal to me as characters because they are doers. Dany is constantly on the move – get dragons, get armies, get ships, conquer, free slaves, more conquering, ruling etc. Jon was a whirlwind of activity in the last book – food stores, train wildlings, assign wildlings to wall, send ships to hardhome, wight experiments, send mance on a ninja mission, advice Stannis, conduct marriages and new alliances, plan wars, make deals with bank – the list goes on. And then there was Sansa feeding SweetRobin his dinner…
Sansa is not introspective either. She does not reflect back on her actions or the information that comes before her – she hears Lysa’s confession before LF murders her and yet never thinks back on and analyzes that conversation.
Sure, the show has removed a lot of what made Jon and Dany interesting in the books and made Sansa more pro-active by giving her elements from Jon’s story. But show Sansa is a pretty terribly written character whose motivations are hard to understand let alone be a relatable character – far from it.
If this war culminates by episode 5 of the final season, this actually leaves only one episode, assuming there are any Dothraki left alive.
In The Winds of Winter novel, if Daenerys’s chapters end with her setting sail for Westeros, this only leaves A Dream of Spring. Not enough pages, I reckon.
I rather agree with dragonbringer: the famous Aragorn’s Tax Policy statement was not referring to the aftermath of the Great War/Second War for the Dawn.
Vaes Dothrak is/was the only city of the Dothraki; all the Dothraki Khals were present at the Khalar vezhven and burned in the massacre; I seem to remember Daenerys having aquired the entirety of the Dothraki fighting force, numbering about 100.000 mounted warriors. Not sure about the “civilian personnel”, though.
Drogo’s khalasar numbered about 40.000 before disbanding.
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Khalar_vezhven
ygritte,
Well, my like for Sansa actually really increased in S6 and she elevated to my favorite character. I never disliked her before though. Like I said above, a lot of factors that contributed to WF liberation come from her, even if it was not intentional. Yes, she’s quite dark at the moment but I see it as a consequence of all suffering she went through… honestly, which character endured such a torment through the show? It leaves permanent scars on that person. We don’t know what’s going on inside her head… people say how Dany hides her vulnerable side behind her facade. How do we know it’s not the same with Sansa? Remember the post-battle scene on WF wall? She opened up to Jon again, they discussed Winterfell, she offered Jon the lord’s chamber and her smiles were very genuine in that scene. So the comments I often see, how she doesn’t care about Jon at all and how she wanted him to die in the battle… that scene alone disproves it. But sure, she’s really hardened now, but not “too far gone” yet.
SerNoName,
And that’s the thing: I’m proactive and introspective, which is why I can’t relate to her.
Don’t get me going on how I think D&D have failed certain characters, because as I’ve written before, I prefer to focus on the positive aspects of the show.
I keep telling myself, over and over, It takes all kinds. It takes all kinds of people to keep operating human societies, actors and reactors, leaders and followers. The fact that I cannot relate to all of them does not mean that any of them are less worthy or valuable. It simply means that they are different, and serve different functions in the world. And the best fiction mirrors the complex reality of said world.
When you sit and think about it …
I wonder why people think storm born refers to euron…
If the episode title was just storm then I would have said it so…
But having it titled stormborn means that there is something that dany does and dany related …
I don’t rememeber the leaks by the episode by episode but I dont remember reading anything major maybe I have missed something but I do wonder what it will be. ..
Speaking about lines
So much for screentime and lines. I would sure like to bring this back up again after the episode 1 aired. .
The Sybian,
Thank you for the information. I have SO. MUCH. BACKGROUND READING. TO DO. 😉
Do you mean laughter lines? Think only of the health benefits!
The Sybian,
I find it hard to believe that such immense patch of land would have only 100 000 men. If that’s the idea GRRM is trying to sell us, it’s not really convincing. And we don’t know if every single khal was present at gatherings.
And Drogo’s khalasar consisted of 40 000 warriors, not all people.
The Sybian,
LOL!!!
The groove between the nose and lip is deeper on the left side, the driver’s side in the United States. After x number of years, those 10-minute drives to work sans sunscreen add up. 😉
Fandom be like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipsPgNEmAXI
As long as there is no touching of the hair or face, we will be alright ! 😉
SerNoName,
Sansa surely was pro-active in S6, more than Jon to be accurate.
I am terribly sorry to force my way into this conversation but since it touches a tad upon political science, I simply cannot resist ! ^^
There is an awful lot to love or, at the very least, respect about Daenerys I think. From her desire to save and rescue others to her need to exist, from her resilience to her tenacity, for her moral compass to her dedication, from her sensibility to her fears, etc. In many ways, she has already changed the world and is trying, with all the best of intentions, to leave it a better place than she found it.
I believe George RR Martin always intended for her struggle to be that of the idealistic and dutiful ruler who keeps on bumping into the wall of reality. And in that constant “bumping” lies what I perceive as the tragedy of her mission.
I agree wholeheartedly with you when you say that many of Daenerys’s attempts at governing have been truncated from the show. However, unlike you, I am tempted to assert that those suppressions have served the character’s reputational accomplishments more than they have eroded them…
Had the show portrayed the Astapori refugee camp in any realistic way, I doubt many viewers would still support Daenerys’s bid for the Iron Throne. Or any throne, for that matter.
In the books, George RR Martin describes the camp in relatively subdued terms, considering his usually “in your face” narrative style when it comes to violence and/ or death. The vocabulary he mobilises to depict the pale mare epidemic is more evocative than frontal, more poetic than visceral. So we, as readers, are not “assaulted” by the abject horror of the Astapori refugees’ circumstances.
Had it happened on the show, the visual nature of the medium would have left no place to hide the utter and complete humanitarian disaster that is this camp. And the viewers would have been left to contemplate how, after Daenerys decided to free its inhabitants, Astapor descended into profound chaos which led, among other things, to a pandemic turning into an epidemic, how many of Daenerys’s “children” then came to her for help and succor, how she denied them (for perfectly valid reasons, since she did not want the disease to spread) and how the people she had supposedly “saved” are now dying by the thousands in abject horror, filth and fear beyond the walls of her new city…
And I would argue that the same logic applies to pretty much every crisis management decision policy put in place by the Mother of Dragons. Every single one of those so far has backfired, tenfold, and I feel the show has spared the character most of the consequences of those shortcomings.
Precisely ! You are utterly right. And now, of course, the question is : what is the tax policy put in place by Daenerys in Book!Meereen ? I am afraid the answer is we do not really know, and neither does the Queen herself.
George RR martin is pretty good at depicting the grind of day-to-day politics. Many chapters are a testament to it (Tyrion’s, Davos’s, Jon’s -after he becomes Lord Commander-, Ned’s, Barristan’s, even some of Cersei’s). Yet, said grind is relatively absent from Daenerys’s chapters, which is all the more interesting considering she, unlike all the aforementioned characters, is a reigning monarch.
Institutional politics is, to a strikingly broad extent, non-existent in Daenerys’s chapters : no afr-reaching organisational policy beyond the symbolic, no institution building, no regime implementation, no social contract establishment, etc. It is, I think, one of the many manifestations of the lines of tension within the character.
She talks more about ruling than she actually does it.
She keeps on seeking power yet does not seem to really want to be queen (deep down she appears to wish she could just return “home”, to the house with the red door).
She is her people’s “mother” yet tends to leave them within six months of freeing them (that is more babysitter-ish than motherly).
She readily accepts people’s worship yet feels trapped by it.
She identifies with Essos yet is single-mindedly focused on returning to Westeros.
She sincerely and wholeheartedly cares for her fellow men yet is perpetually disconnected from them.
At her core, Daenerys is, I believe, someone whom reality tends to disappoint profoundly.
She is the almost minerally pure embodiment of the Ethic of Moral Conviction, to put it in Weberian terms, insofar as she views politics as a path to a form of salvation, not simply for the peoples she frees but also for herself.
Now, while said Ethic is undoubtedly useful, when it is not paired with and tampered by the Ethic of Responsibility (the pragmatic, non-ideologically driven use of the State’s means of legitimate violence), it only leads to political disaster for one of the main dangers of politics stems from the relationship between the politician and the State-intrinsic means of violence at his/her disposal. Now it so happens that Daenerys has a maternal, passionate relationship with said means of violence since they are her “children” (the dragons)… That is not a recipe for success, I am afraid.
The Mother of Dragons, wherever she goes, is the State. But sadly, that political model is forever destined to fail.
Maybe that is both the beauty and the tragedy of Danerys. She has changed the world and she will keep on doing so. She has brought about immense hope and accomplishment and also complete devastation. Centuries down the line and with the intervening work of more pragmatic people, the consequences of the consequences of the consequences of those changes may very well be as positive as she wants them to be. But, as of now and for the rest of her lifetime, I believe it is going to be much more chaotic and lethal than that.
I apologise profusely for the parallel I am about to draw however when I first saw Daenerys on that Greyjoy ship, with the flags flying high behind her, I could not help but be reminded of another ruler, in another space-time continuum, on another ship, in front of other banners, one of which read “Mission accomplished” when it really was anything but.
Lord Parramandas:
Theon did.
It might be deeply ironic that Ramsay is responsible for two of the deepest character changes in ASoIaF. I would add that some of the other deep changes we’ve seen have been more “organic” (for lack of a better term): people coming to an understanding (consciously or unconsciously), through their interactions with other individuals, that they needed to change (e.g., Jaime via Brienne, the Hound via Sansa & Arya). But Ramsay… Ramsay inflicted fundamental changes on both Theon and Sansa, and contrary to his intentions, the actions that originally terrified and weakened them as individuals in his captivity somehow strengthened them when they found commonality in his victimization of them and re-discovered the individuality they held before said victimization.
Hope that makes sense. I’ve really made a dent in the whiskey, so…
dragonbringer,
Wolfish,
Theon did yes. I thought of him when writing that comment. But Theon broke in his captivity, while Sansa hardened in his captivity, both in light and dark way, proven in her scene when she confronts Theon and how she was willing to escape despite knowing what Ramsay was capable of. Yes, Theon hardened himself again, but due to Sansa’s interference and I feel this scene of her is generally very underappreciated.
Firannion,
Fans of Dany did not start this conversation. There is no character besides Dany and Sansa that will inevitably attract negative attention merely for existing.
It would be as if people had posted en masse about how much they don’t like Jon and think it’s stupid that he had the battle of the bastards or hardhome episodes named after him, and why can’t he just die so we can have more screen time for Dany.
Jon isn’t my fave at all but I don’t post that sort of thing. Why the F do people have the need to do so for Dany? It’s bizarre. There’s definitely something… different about the way the non fans of Dany behave compared to non fans of Jon, Jaime, etc. People hate her much more personally and viscerally and feel the need to broadcast it to all and sundry (Sansa too).
Yeah, and they did it by giving Sansa book Jon’s story. In the books, Jon decided to go attack Ramsay to save his sister. On the show, they had Sansa getting him to do that because they wanted to give the character something to do.
So David and Dan seem to think that book Sansa is a pretty boring, static character and the only way they could think of to make her more interesting was to make her more like Arya and give her narratives that belong to Jon, Theon, Stannis and Arya.
Despite all that Show!Sansa continues to be awful mainly because she is not well written and Sophie Turner’s rather poor acting does not help.
This article explains the problem with the way Sansa was written last season:
http://theweek.com/articles/631406/game-thrones-sansa-problem
ACME,
I never denied that Daenerys has good intentions. But if the character (or the actress) does not give me internal feelings, I cannot warm up to her. And sadly, it’s often the case with her when it comes to me.
SerNoName,
Show Sansa is not awful to me at all. She’s my favorite character. And her book story would really not make a great TV. Blame GRRM for (in my opinion) very dull books 4 and 5 (which personally bored me to death) and for basically forgetting about Sansa in those books.
Queenofthrones,
Well that all depends where you hang out.There are places where they hate Dany or Sansa passionately.There are other places where they hate Jon or Jaime or Tyrion passionately and put Dany or Sansa on pedestals.There are places where none of these things happen.It all depends on the fan community you frequent.Generalization help nobody.
Oh wow really brings home the fact S7 is finally upon us
Lord Parramandas,
Do you see now that the same thing might happen to others with Sansa or any other character?And that doesn’t mean that they hate the show or are not exited about it?
Lord Parramandas,
I do think much of Sansa’s growth and “hardening” in Theon’s captivity is under-appreciated, but in all fairness to Theon, he lost several body parts… including that which defines most men, to themselves and to the world, as men. As much as Sansa has lost to Ramsay’s unspeakable abuses, “womanhood”—and, most important for nobility in a feudal society, ability to procreate—is not one of those things.
Jenny,
First of all, I believe all this intense criticising is unnecessary. I really do not remember such a negative vibe last year and every time Sansa is mentioned in one post, people start intensely criticising her. I don’t come to this fansite to see what people don’t like about the show… I thought of this site to be a really positive one, but this year, it doesn’t really seem that way to me. I personally don’t go on every Dany thread and loudly say how much I don’t like her because that goes against my idea of being a fan. In fact, this is the first (and probably only time) I ever expressed why I’m not a fan of Dany.
Last we saw Edmure was free and back running Riverrun. So he could turn up in E8 and the Big War.
It is really odd about Arya can’t tell what the story will be. I am expecting her association with Braavos is not over, but that will probably be in S8.
A new dimension of the taxi driver’s tan (primary definition), a duel raging on Wolfish’s face, and a dream model for a “before/after” face cream commercial:
Step 1: take a headshot
Step 2: draw a vertical line right in the middle of the photo
Done & done
But I want to actually see this excitement on this site. “Mention what you don’t like but focus on what you like”. I don’t want this site to be aplace where show gets criticised while its members like the show “offscreen”. There are members here in which cases their comments will automatically be filled with criticism and negative stuff. I won’t say names though.
Boojam,
Edmure isn’t free nor is he in Riverrun. Walder Frey mentioned in episode 10 that Edmure was back in the dungeons at the Twins.
Arya has definitely been underhyped so far.
Jenny,
No, not really. I have never been in a got asoiaf space where people “hate “Jon or Tyrion passionately” or put Dany or Sansa on a pedestal.
if people don’t like Jon or Tyrion, they ignore them. If people don’t like Dany they whine constantly about it at every opportunity. Everywhere.
Lord Parramandas,
I will certainly not presume to put words in Jenny’s mouth, er, fingers, but maybe, just maybe, the point she’s trying to make is that criticism of certain choices made by D&D or criticism of certain characters that not all of us can, er, “relate” to does not amount to “hatred” of the show. In the last three weeks or so, you were pretty critical of the regular contributors as a whole, labeling us as an overly persnickety group who spent far too much time criticizing the show and not nearly enough time praising it (and, if I recall correctly, the characters). Yet, in the last couple of days you’ve made your displeasure with Daenerys quite clear, to the shock of many regular posters who had assumed that you wished to focus only on the positive aspects of all the characters and the book-to-screen adaptations.
Don’t get me wrong: I’ve enjoyed many of your contributions, and I’ve enjoyed all of our personal exchanges about character developments and storylines. But you should understand that you’ve sent mixed messages to people who’ve been posting here regularly throughout the “off-season.”
And please, don’t take this in a terribly personal way. As I noted above, I’ve really enjoyed our exchanges; you’re an incredibly valuable contributor to this site.
Boojam,
What ghost of winterfell said: Edmure is locked in a dungeon. And if Arya has paid attention (as Sexy Jesus taught her to do), she’s already determined where he is and she’s freed him. 🙂
The Sybian,
5:02 a.m. on the West Coast of North America: Jack Daniel’s out nose.
Seriously, though… I really don’t want to be this person:
http://cbsnews2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2012/06/04/9d138f74-a644-11e2-a3f0-029118418759/thumbnail/1200×630/ad89e49fab375a3d088102c9642f26d5/trucker-damage-face_web.jpg
Dammit. 5:00 a.m. in my neck of the woods, and the early birds are getting the worms. I’ll have to catch up with all you East Coasters and Europeans in about 10 hours. Have a wonderful day, everyone!
Lord Parramandas,
We do see her struggle with feelings of wanting stability on the one hand and manipulating for more control on the other. Have the grim, alienating circumstances in which she grew up made her cold and indifferent? As a young girl she wanted certain things even if it meant dishonoring her own family members. Does she still have that reckless streak, only now feeling more than ever that she deserves things because of what she’s been through? Is this why she discounted her brother’s wants and needs after his major ordeal and instead try to goad him into waging war, was she telling him she’d “do it herself” in order that he might change his mind in duty of wanting to protect her? Did she take stock when Cercei told her it’s a weakness to love anyone besides one’s own children? The thing is, everybody expects that Sansa just wants a warm roof over her head and stability but I think her character is not so inclined to be satisfied with such mundane things, especially with LF being an influence and trying to appeal to that side of her that might still want to be “queen,” now with the added appeal of wreaking vengeance on Cercei by doing so. He’s trying to get her to play the game and she might just use him as a pawn until she gets there. That would be fine if another character many of us root for didn’t have the better claim. I just hope it doesn’t send her into a clash in S8 with Jon and/or (if there’s an alliance) Dany. But wouldn’t it be something if it all ends on that note? Lol.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Century_of_Blood#Cities_fallen_to_the_Dothraki
If you have access to this official episode synopsis, give it a try. I’m currently locked out, probably because I live outside of the US (?). Until I rewatch season 6, I can only resort to the Game of Thrones wiki for such (important) details. But I guess we should only be interested in this one particular gathering depicted in “Book of the Stranger”.
http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season-6/episode-4
This is what I meant, too. The “combat service support” (non-warriors) depicted on the show could be counted separately.
ACME,
[
The books did portray it and there are people who are still supporting dany claim for the throne or as aruler of meereen ..
Mainly because you don’t get to blame everything like a epidemic that had befallen on dany …
If the show does exactly like what it did in the books then the viewers would have seen Butcher king was too stupid and idiotic to listen to dany’s advice and yunkai slavers found a way to completely destroy astopor and steel all its wealth…and it was yunkai who lead the pandemic turn into an epidemic….
It’s like blaming everything that had happened on westeros so far is somehow Ned’s blame or LF’s blame or Varys’s blame …somehow I don’t see these guys getting blame for all that…
She provided them even when she is adviced against it…she provided what she can..
Another thing even through all the sufferings the people like her and adore her …why do you think that is…could it have been because they were having much worse life before dany ..
What are you talking about ..pretty much all of her chapters in dance is about day to day politics and martin himself identifies the difficulties of the situation she is surrounded and ruling that place ..
You are saying you find it in Jon Davis and Ned and barristan and even in cersei but you don’t find that in dany’s …
We had this arguments before about dany in meereen…
You have this view meereen will fall back to its old ways or something like that right and dany failed there…
My question is if thats the case we willl be having atleast a throw away line right in the next season like we had with astopor was back to slavery or stannis is dead like that…
But if there is no line what does that tell you…
You brought up how wherever she goes she only brings up destruction and lay waste …
You keep saying varys and LF are good rulers …
I wonder what makes them good rulers..what exactly did they accomplished to get such an award ..
Jenny,
As for the other comment you made…I would like to know such place so for a change it would be nice to be there …and maybe I can start defending Jon
Wolfish,
Yes I meant this.And people are plenty exited in this site.Everybody loves the show in their way.I have been reading this website and been in the fandom since season 1 and the atmosphere is pretty much the same.You will have the first comments with general sentiments on the topic and saying how exited we are and how we can’t wait.Then it morphs into discussions and nitpicks etc cause that is the nature of fansites.Otherwise it’s just an echo chamber.But this website is a far cry from other places where they hate the show or just attack D&D every chance they get.But saying you find Dany or Sansa or much to my displeasure Jon annoying is not hating on the show lol.
I have absolutely no complaints thus far with the adaptation of Daenerys. Yes, D&D undeniably have changed many things, but that is exactly as it should be. The screen is not the same as the page and should never be treated as such.
I believe they have stayed true to Dany’s character thus far and made her arguably heroic and potentially villainous at the same time, which is exactly as I read her in the books. Ambiguous. Gray. Possibly the biggest hero ever. Possibly the biggest villain. Most likely somewhere in between. And I think walking that fine line is truly brilliant.
I’m also a huge Emilia Clarke fan. Is she the best actress on the entire show? I tend to think Dianna Rigg and Lena Headey may have her beat, but I absolutely adored her in “Me Before You.”
Queenofthrones,
dragonbringer,
Oh you should take a stroll in some parts of twitter or tumblr.The hate is quite strong.With Jon is more of a mantra of how boring he is,how cliche etc etc.There were a couple of podcasts that I have listened where the host absolutely hated Jon and they would bring it up every single time they talked lol.I don’t hang around long in those parts cause my blood starts boiling haha.I will grant you that the hate Dany gets in some parts its quite illogical.But I don’t think it’s that extreme here.
Ginevra,
Well I love both Emma and Emilia…this reminds me of having a joke about me Emma and Emilia three heads of thedragons …
Even iam not saying Emilia is greatest of the cast but she is doing her job which she is given to do ..
Wolfish,
Yesterday was the only time I ever voiced why I’m not much fan of Daenerys, and even in that case, it was because I was asked why. I tried to wrap my Daenerys stuff very early in this thread. I’m otherwise always positive towards the show itself and negativity on this site will always bother me… like I said countless times, the site doesn’t feel the same to me this year, and not in a good way. “Mention what you dislike and focus what you like” – that’s my approach to every TV series on a fansite. But certain members’ comments are always very critical towards the show and those comments literally make me uncomfortable. I don’t want to come to this site to be frustrated every time… but exactly that happens all the time since S6 ended. I don’t why it is like that but it’s very different feeling for me, not at all pleasant one. And then those same people get insulted when I mention I feel they’re too negative towards the show? Why exactly? If they enjoy criticising the show, why do they feel insulted when I say they’re putting too much focus on criticism? Why not be a bit more positive for a change?
O yeah, that was confusing since Jamie had promised to send Edmure to Casterly Rock, seems , to me, a bit of a plot glitch.
This is why I see the writing of Khaleesi in both the books and the show as brilliant. Intelligent people can see her written in dramatically different ways!
I tend to be of the philosophy that Dany is the good ruler making decisions that first appeared correct but were not, in fact, wise. My question is: If not Dany, who is George talking about here?
http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423?page=4
ygritte,
Yes, Sansa is surely a complex character but aren’t layered and complex/ambiguous characters the point of GoT? If we had Sansa as a complete good girl and LF as a complete evil guy, that wouldn’t be GoT anymore. I learned from another show that there is always so much hidden in the scenes and sometimes, it requires a bit of thinking and the scene suddenly makes a whole lot of sense and the character is seen in a better light. And I believe GoT could be that kind of a show as well, only that people take what’s handled on a tray instead of looking at the person who holds a tray. Sansa’s actions are ambiguous for sure but we don’t know what’s going on her mind. Maybe that’s the point of her… she’s hardened, both in positive and negative sense, she may be standing on a border between light and dark and one small blow of a wind is all that takes.
Jenny,
Haha Why do you think iam hanging only around here….I guess House with Red door will be a nice place ..since most of the posters are well matured and mannered and I do know them from the years at westeros.org….unfortunately I don’t get enough time to hang out there…I guess there you can find Jon and dany and cat and sansa equally loved..I only have respect for places like westeros.org and Wic( should I say used to) and watchers on the wall and house with red door and tower of hand and podcast of ice and fire …
personally i don’t take anything seriously coming from a Twitter or Facebook or YouTube or tumblr …maybe I should add reddit to the list…
Can you name the podcasts..
Some of the podcasts are way worse…. I think it was fat pink mast or something where one said show is trying to whitewash dany by having children crucified by the masters and how it didn’t happen in the books …there is this one podcast called close the door or Jamie brienne shippers who hate dany so much i had to stop listening to them..
Ginevra,
There are only two people who are on the learning curve of ruling like he said in the quote I gave in regard to the aragaorn’s comment …
It applies to both dany and Jon….they both failed becuase they had good intentions but were somewhat chained to do the necessary thing and you will find both of them learning from that andchange in winds of winter
Well, I used to believe it but now I get proven wrong every single day… positivity goes way beyond that and opens so many possible ways for discussion
Lord Parramandas,
Yes! That last sentence describes precisely how I think they want us to see her, as very ambiguous.
dragonbringer,
Oh one is a spanish podcast and the other one is Vassals of Kingsgrave.In general I find it easy to moderate my fandom experience though.I frequent places where they are inclined to my kind of thinking and don’t follow anybody who I disagree with lol.
Jenny,
Yeah I mostly just watch reactions videos and reviews by them and some podcasts I like to listen and this place ..
Just now noticed that Stormborn is written by Bryan cogman and whatever hope I got after your comment had vanished …
Hmm….
I agree with you about the titles for episode 4 and 5.
7.06 White Wolf
7.07 A Song of Ice and Fire or The Song of Ice and Fire or The Prince Who Was Promised
8.01 The Long Night
8.02 The Isle of Faces or The Long Night part 2
8.03 Three Heads of the Dragon or The Three Heads of the Dragon or The Isle of Faces or The Island
8.04 War for the Dawn
8.05 The Pact or The Pact of Ice and Fire or Ice and Fire or War for the Dawn part 2
8.06 A Dream of Spring or There Must Always Be a Stark in Winterfell
George,
You really want the Isle of Faces in the show, don’t you? 😛
Lord Parramandas,
I understand that totally and do not blame you one bit. There is no accounting for taste.
In my eyes, Daenerys is George RR Martin’s incarnation of his oft-repeated notion that politics is inherently difficult, quasi-impossible in fact, and that, in this area, being a good person is, more often than not, not good enough (and perhaps not even necessary).
I believe I can see what you mean but I am sorry to say I cannot quite agree.
Jon has never been, is not and will never be weak-willed, in my opinion. This is a man who decided to join the Night’s Watch even after finding out it was a glorified prison, who fought with a healthy proportion of his fellow Crows once he arrived there, who was ultimately not swayed by his love for Ygritte and left her to go back to the Wall, who was willing to abandon Gilly to her fate for strategic reasons, who argued with Thorne, who did not change his plan to let the Free Folk south of the Wall even in the face of Olly’s soul-crushing distress, who basically told Sansa to go f- herself when she argued Ramsay was better than him at laying traps…
I know Jon is adorable, with his beautiful locks and his soulful chocolate eyes. I realise he nails the downtrodden puppy look better than anyone else on Planetos. I am aware that he loves to think of himself as the ultimate underdog (much more so than he objectively is). However, none of that makes him particularly soft, I believe.
Ultimately, Jon does whatever Jon wants. He is a stubborn mofo when he feels like it. That is one of the many roots of his charm (and of my annoyance, at times ^^). So the idea that he was goaded into anything feels a touch odd to me, I have to admit.
I think you may very well be right about this but I am somewhat puzzled as to why people would expect that, considering it is not what the character herself said.
Had Sansa only wanted a warm roof over her head, taking back the family’s ancestral home would have been completely unnecessary. After all, there are plenty other roofs in the world ! When advocating in favour of recuperating Winterfell, she presented Jon with two arguments (in no particular order): a) revenge from Ramsay, b) securing a Stark stronghold so the scattered Direwolves would have a beacon to rally round.
Warm roofs did not seem to be part of the deal.
Bran ? 😉 (I am so profoundly ashamed of that petty joke. I apologise, it was irresistible…)
Boojam,
I think the general understanding was that Edmure rejected Jaime’s original offer to free him, reunite him with his wife and son and give him a home at Casterly Rock.
It was only after Jaime threatened to kill Edmure’s son that he agreed to help capture Riverrun.
Of course, it’s possible that Jaime and/or Walder Frey simply reneged on the original offer.
If that’s the case, and if Edmure does feature this season, then that betrayal may motivate him to rally the Riverlands against the Lannisters and side with either Daenerys or with the North. It’s hard to tell if there will be time for such sub-plots in this shortened season.
But I’d be surprised if they left Edmure’s fate as a loose end and didn’t bother resolving the future and allegiances of the Riverlands now that Walder Frey is dead.
Depending on just how many of Walder Frey’s heirs Arya decided to cook into pies, Edmure’s son may be the heir to both Riverrun and The Twins. And as cousin to the Stark children and Robin Arryn, the North and Vale would seem to be natural allies.
But I guess we’ll just have to wait and see whether they bother to revisit the Riverlands.
The books do not portray the epidemic as vividly as they portray other incidences of violence, death and/or despair. When one compares the vocabulary used to describe events like the Red Wedding or even the famine in King’s Landing to the lexicon mobilised to evoke the Astapori refugee camp, the differences are striking.
I believe George RR Martin made a conscious effort to “soften the blow”, so to speak, in regards to the pale mare epidemic and its consequences. He allows the readers to look at it mainly through Daenerys’s eyes and, more than the objective and frontal horror of the refugees’ plight, it is the Mother of Dragons’ guilt and despair he focuses on.
On the show, the visceral and abject pain of the sick would have been front and center, without any Daenerys-buffer. And that, I think, would have had a severe impact in terms of perception.
Most of the time, the spread and severity of epidemics can be traced back to a failure in governance.
Why were the people of Astapor living in such squalor that the virus could spread so successfully ? Because the political regime in the city was horrific. Why was the regime horrific ? Because there was no social contract. Why was there no social contract ? Because the previous one had been destroyed and not replaced. By whom ?
Or could it be because they are believers…
Religious people rarely blame God (or whichever deity(ies) they are devoted to) for their misery or lose their faith in the face of terrible hardship; if anything, they usually blame themselves. If tragedy befalls them, it must be because they have sinned or offended the deity somehow. “Why hast though forsaken me ?” or, in other words, “what have I done to deserve this punishment ?”
In my opinion, the former slaves do not accuse or recuse Daenerys because she has become a God-like figure to them, their Holy Mother.
Oh, she worries a lot about ruling. She thinks about it virtually constantly. Yet, very little gets done in terms of actual policy-making. Where is the draft of a new, comprehensive social contract ? Where are the plans for new institutions to replace the old ones ? Where are the social and political structures necessary to the creation of a reformed citizenry in the region ?
That will tell me that the show’s writers have no understanding whatsoever of politics and/or history. Because considering the way they have left things in Meereen, there is no other option but for the region to descend into utter chaos.
I do apologise for repeating myself but Meereen, at the end of season 6, does not have a State ! It does not even have a Leviathan… All it has are a sexy dude in a pyramid, an army that can be bought, former slavers with financial means and former slaves with little to nothing. What are Meereenese supposed to build upon that ? Who can possibly expect them to grow some Jeffersonian democracy out of those rubbles ?
They know people and what they want. They take the population’s shortcomings, prejudices, value systems and circumstances into account when dealing with them instead of superimposing an idealistic framework of expectations over them.
A good ruler is, first and foremost, one who knows the reality of his/her people.
Daenerys sincerely believed she was saving Mirri Maz Duur but, if she had actually talked to her instead of assuming she knew what the woman wanted, she would have discovered that living among the people who had violently raped her and brutally annihilated all the people she knew and loved was, to Mirri, a fate worse than death.
Daenerys genuinely believed that expecting Mossador to live peacefully alongside the people who used to treat him as their property was the right and constructive thing to do but, if she has asked him for his opinion instead of presuming her perception was correct, she would have been faced with the justified resentment, the bitter rage, the vengeful animosity that laid beneath the surface.
Daenerys wants to help people. More than anything else in the world. Yet, she very rarely gets to know or understand them… That cannot work and leads to terrible, yet well-meaning, decisions.
This is the Weberian divide between ethicists of conviction and ethicists of responsibility (I am sorry for mentioning it again but I feel it is awfully appropriate and I do not have Good Ol’ Max’s genius so I’ll quote him directly).
For a ruler by conviction,“if an action of good intent leads to bad results, then, in the actor’s eyes, not he but the world, or the stupidity of other men, or God’s will who made them thus, is responsible for the evil.” Conversely, a ruler by responsibilty “takes account of precisely the average deficiencies of people…(H)e does not even have the right to presuppose their goodness and perfection.”
As such, the following
is a perfect example of ethic of conviction. Blaming other people’s stupidity has its limits for Daenerys, as a ruler, should have taken said stupidity into account. Stupidity, rancor, resentment, violence, prejudices, etc. All of those and even worse are part of human nature and a ruler has to factor it in when dealing with his/her people. Short of that, governing is reduced to nothing but the art of wishful thinking.
e: I forgot how to post spoilers! (I had my guesses here in what I thought were spoiler tags… but weren’t… Oops.)
ACME,
Its been a veey long day And iam baffled that you saw that policy making in others chapters even in cersei and barristans and davos but not in dany’s .we also saw it through quentyn and tyrion…i also like that when there needs to be blame ruler or dany in this case get everything..and when its praise it goes to adviosrs ..I will just say that I would like to see you hold LF and varys accountable to many things like you do for dany…
Let’s just agree to disagree here ..
dragonbringer,
I hold Littlefinger and Varys accountable, I feel (though I am no impartial judge of my own behaviour). I am under no illusion that either of them is a good person. The former is responsible for the War of the Five Kings while the latter seems to have been one of the architects of Robert’s Rebellion and was planning a Dothraki invasion back in Season 1 (good of the realm, my butt !)
Unfortunately, good person =/= good ruler.
Since the matter at hand appears to be Daenerys, I remain focus on her. I am unbearably verbose enough even when I stay on topic; if I start going on tangents, it may push the limits of everyone’s tolerance. ^^
But maybe you are right, let’s 🙂
Yaga,
[ / spoiler] without spaces
LOL.
I think that’s where Howland Reed will be or has been all this time…After all, where the heck is Howland? Supposedly Ned’s best friend, he has been conspicuously absent in the Show AND the books, and I think if he wasn’t gonna show up eventually D&D would have simply cut Meera’s father out of the Tower of Joy flashback instead of having the Three Eyed Raven helpfully point out to the non-book audience “Hey Bran!, that’s Howland Reed, Meera’s father!”
dragonbringer,
Thanks!
Luka Nieto,
OK, Attempt Two:
65 Brothers
66 The Hunt
67 Dragonpit
ACME,
I actually like reading your posts and agree with you most of the times .iam just not good with words or at expressing myself so I admire guys like you wimsey and ten bears wolfish…its just i think you are just holding dany too much accountable for what happens in meereen …
I know from the start that its going be unbelievable when it comes to meereen because GRRm wrote himself into it and ever since he said he will skip the five year gap …
All these things like him talking about Aragon’s tax policy making are kind of him giving the dance the PR since he didnt plan this to begin with and only settled with this after knowing he can’t have five year gap…
George,
I would like the final battle to be in isle of faces like we see in dany’s dream and mirroring daemon and aemond fighting
YAAAAAAAAA! Total hype!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
stefan666,
I like the idea of Dany holding court = meeting Jon and Davos (after they mention Dragonstone in 6.1)
Tyrion plans the conquest of Westeros: perhaps here they take Casterly Rock through the sewage system?
Jaime learns from his mistakes (in Riverrun?): maybe here he conquers Highgarden differently (trailer with dead Tyrell soldier)?
Luka Nieto,
Season 7:
-Field of fire (since everyone suggests it)
-The Dragon and the Wolf (I have no idea, but I like this title suggested elsewhere)
-The last hero
-Ice and Fire
Season 8:
-Winter is here
-The long night
-A time for wolves
-War of the dawn
-A dream of spring
(-and some title related to Jaime, Cersei and Brienne)
Lord Parramandas,
I’m sorry, but what?
This post started with great positives comments and interesting speculations about the episodes titles…and YOU were the one who started whining:
“I’m quite annoyed that they’re all related to Dany. She’s not the only GoT character”,
“it really bothers me… she’s not the only main character in the show”,
“I’m annoyed by all the overwhelming love Dany gets”,
“it annoys me a bit how much overwhelming love Dany gets among general fandom”,
“she’s not a character that i would really enjoy her presence on screen”.
If that is not being a “hater”, I dont know what it is…
And then proceded to give an essay of all the reason you dislike Daenerys, completely ignoring all the reason fans gave you to show you why there are many good reasons fans like her.
Then you go on ” I believe all this intense criticising is unnecessary”… the intense criticising YOU started by spreading your negativity in a positive post?…ok then…
I’ll have what you’re having, Wolfie. I prefer single malts. Anyway, I agree. Theon has had the absolute WORST experience of any character. I’m really rooting for his slow recovery to succeed. You could also make a good argument for Arya, Jon and Bran too. Arya and Sansa are about even. Sansa was isolated and slightly threatened while in KL, but she was at least living in the lap of luxury, as she always has. She was comfortable enough that she turned down several offers of help and would still be in KL if Littlefinger hadn’t framed her and Tyrion. She had the right to turn down the Ramsay marriage despite LF’s pressure but she lacked any curiosity to ask LF the sort of questions that might have hinted at the likely dangers. Mind, I detest what Ramsay did to her and also resent D&D subjecting us to a likeable character’s pain instead of Jeyne Poole’s. But she did accept marriage to the son of the man who’d killed her brother and stolen her family home. Ned must have been sobbing in 7th heaven. And in her mind, she’s now back on top and thinks she deserves everything.
For years, the even younger Arya was neither sheltered nor regularly fed. She had to rough it whilst dragged around by Yoren, the BWB, and the Hound, the last two in order to profit from her. When brought to Harrenhal, she was in manacles and kept in an open pen with other prisoners, slept in rain, and watched people being tortured to death. Later, even with a roof briefly over her head, only her quick thinking kept her from being identified by Tywin Lannister. Though she did receive austere food and shelter in the HOB&W, she also spent time homeless, blind, and begging for coins, not to mention getting the shit beaten out of her by Jaqen and the Waif. In order to escape the FM without reprisal, she had to lure the Waif and nearly got killed before she trapped her. Sansa, Theon, and Arya all bear mental and physical scars that will affect them all their lives.
Lord Parramandas:
Lord P– Sorry for asking, but what is LFU? It sounds interesting. By the way, IIRC, Sansa wasn’t trying to escape, but to put a candle in the window to summon Brienne.
I hope you don’t let this drive you away from the site. I’ve always enjoyed your posts.
The Sybian,
I don’t think so, otherwise I would have chosen them for my icon. Maybe if the name Nancy Drew is under the picture??
dragonbringer,
Because of Summer exams I do not have time or energy to really effectively explain everything. but just so you know I am not entirely out there.
show Dany pretty much took over fAgon’s storyline and currently is in possession of his book allies. also some one did a book chapters to screantime comparasen back right after season five I think and cound that Dany was in posetion of about an extra hours of screantime total wich is not all that large but is something.
I really would prefer not to bring them up but I believe in an interview D+D states they were thinking of cutting out dorne because they already had that type of character in the show, and multiple times they have brought up how they like to contrast characters journeys. (I believe there was some comment on how Sansa in season five was kind of retreating because of the abuses by Ramsay while Dany was blossoming into a strong leader.) therefore by changing Dany’s journey you change other characters who are meant to be her foils. that is all I was saying
now the important part. I did not mean keep Dany isolated, (actually my idea would make her more integrated) what I suggested was; if D+D realize that they tend to “disneyfy” Dany and then write all the other characters to suit that narrative, write everyone elses story-lines first. that way they are writing Sansa not “sansa”( but we need to remember not to make her too strong because that would seem redundant) or Jaime not “jaime” ( but we need to remember to either make hime look evil or like a backbones freak because the audience needs to agree with Dany in her hate of him) then write for her with her part in the story kind of mapped out by force. and if minor changes needed to be made to other charater’s than that would be fine.
this is how a friend explained it “game of thrones is a puzzle “show-Dany” does not fit into the “book-Dany” hole, she has been changed too much, the writers have two choices; either allow the rest of the story to give a bit and their version of Dany to give a bit and make a slightly different shaped hole for that puzzle piece to go into or change every other puzzle piece to accommodate the one that is misshaped.”
If you are just starting the puzzle you might be tempted to do the latter if you really like that one misshaped piece, but if everything else is done and works really well together you might be willing to bite the bullet and compromise and make the changes to everyone elses story-line minimal. it is not about keeping her separate, it is about not giving her re-imagined story-line more weight than the plot of the rest of the show.
Tessa-Rose Davidson,
YG is a minor character who is introduced in the book 5 …
And you are comparing him to dany whose conquest is mentioned as one of the three actual plot points of the story by the author himself…
I don’t know how much you know the leaks so I will hold myself bringing that up …these people may become YG allies and also become dany’s allies when she comes and YG already dead…
Ofcourse the result will show that because she had way less chapters in ACOK and ASoS but had lot happening in them ..she is been having screentime less than many secondary characters for the past three seasons …
I don’t remember anything like that in regards to sansa and dany in season 5. ..
I agree with what you are saying about all those changes ….but I don’t see how it applies to dany …
If you had mentioned about tyrion then I would have agreed with you …
dragonbringer,
I do enjoy reading your posts an awful lot too. You express yourself extremely well.
And you undoubtedly are right to say that I do judge Daenerys more harshly than other characters. However, in my defense, I believe I evaluate her by standards that are somewhat appropriate to her situation.
I expect more from her, who has sought to become queen time and time again, than I do from characters like Robb or Tommen, who never asked to wear a crown. I am still on the fence as to whether I should raise my expectations and standards in regards to Jon : on the one hand, he is not a novice since he has a prior experience as a ruler (that ended up with his men stabbing him in the front), on the other appendage, the crown of the north was very much forced onto his head so… I guess I will cut him some initial slack and see what he does.
Maybe I am also tougher on Daenerys because, deep down, I would love for her to succeed. I am not a complete monster and do find her fight against slavery remarkable. Everytime she stumbles, it is also (and above all) her cause that suffers and it is all the more tragic.
As for Meereen… I truly wish I could see a way for it to be salvaged, either in the books or on the show, but I am sorry to say I truly cannot.
Ellie,
This was one and the only time when I voiced anything negative about the show. ANd what about the second comment when I tried to wrap things up because I was sure I caused too much negativity?
OK, just to break the tension I may have unintentionally caused… I’m not a Dany hater and I really try to warm up to her as I know I will otherwise not enjoy the show. In fact, I’m not a “hater” of any main character as they all play role in the story and have their own journeys. There are scenes of her that I surely enjoyed, especially in S6. Her goodbye to Mormont, naming Tyrion her hand… those two especially stand out for me and I hope there will be more of those scenes in S7 and not just “Dany delivering speeches” (which are usually among my less favorite ones”).
But I do admit I’m not the one who would be hyped about “Jon, Dany and Tyrion teaming up to defeat bad guys”. Tyrion is one of my favorite characters but these characters together is not something that would give me “the special feelings”. Cersei, Jaime, Sansa… I enjoy their presence more than Jon and Dany if I’m honest and I try to view show as following the characters themselves, their journey. So the overwhelming hype about Jon and Dany possibly meeting up (who are total strangers to each other)… I must say it turns me off a bit. I would probably like if/when they meet… but it won’t be some big moment for
And then you asked me why, and I decided to give you a detailed argumented comment so you would get a clear picture, as much as I generally don’t like to speak negatively about the characters. I’m NOT a hater, I really try to warm up to Daenerys as much as it is possible. But if you don’t want to believe me, fine… just wait for my reviews where there would be no bashing of any characters.
No worries. My reviews will still come. I enjoy writing them so much and I’m still in writer mood due to 114 LOST memory lane posts I’ve written/filmed during the year. I may even post some video reviews on my Youtube channel… a couple days after the episode would air though.
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Tessa-Rose Davidson: once again its difficult to explain, and I don’ hate her its more just I do not trust her with the character and I would prefer watching other story lines. And apparently the Tyrell’s were killed to give other characters more screen time and as of now who looks like the person who got the lions share of that vacated screen time?
Sorry but what you say doesn’t make sense to me. D&D didn´t give Daenerys another character storyline (like Sansa with Jayne Pool), she is a main character in the story and is normal that in S7 will have more screen time now that she is in Westeros.
The Tyrell weren´t kill to give others more screen time they died because the story don’t need them anymore and all remain characters will have more screen time.
dragonbringer,
Tessa-Rose Davidson,
I actually see it as Cersei taking over YG storyline, in the books when Dany comes to Westeros I don’t see Cersei in power with YG being there long before, Dany per her visions has to slay the mummer’s dragons lies so it would make a lot more sense for YG to either be on the throne or be very close to it. I imagine Dany coming to Westeros will be different in the books but that’s because The show has less time and different characters to contend with. So no Dany isn’t taking over YG storyline, she’s doing what she was always meant to be doing contending for the Iron Throne then when it’s in her reach walking away from it to fight the WW per her visions, if Dany had the Golden Company it would be different but she doesn’t, the only thing I could say Dany took from YG was her closest longest friend getting Greyscale.
Karenchasez,
Also because Natalie Dormer wanted to leave so see could do other things lol
ACME,
I will admit, I was disappointed about how the Mereen storyline finished in the show. I was expecting more closure to the story but it felt rushed though I don’t think it will ever come up again on the show. So I do think GRRM when he does write the books, will end Mereen better and give us more closure to it than the show did, it also seemed like Dany would go to the Slave city Volantis after Tyrion being told to tell Dany that they need her there which never happened in the show so I do think it will be a improvement to the show but I imagine we will be waiting a long time to find out if I’m right or not.
I´m with you that Cercei could have taken part of YG storyline, there is a detail from the leaks to back up this
dragonbringer,
Wow you remember the passages so well, I love Dany’s inner monologue it shows her true character so well, I wish it wasn’t all inner monologue though sometimes so D&D could have adapted it in the show.
Karenchasez,
Yep know exactly what you mean, though I thought it would always happen before the leaks after they omitted YG. Dany had to have competition and it will be YG in the books, Cersei in the show
https://twitter.com/gameofupdates/status/883651661440462849
Haha Gemma Whelan aka Yara playing Shag, Behead, Or Feed To The Dragons
Realistically, we should expect many of the Northerners to be concerned about Jon’s obsession with the White Walkers. They should be much more concerned with the Lannister’s and with Winter, both of which are real threats that they personally have experienced. They obviously are willing to buy that something bad is north of the Wall: but, really, it’s quite ridiculous to think that the White Walkers of children’s stories could be back!
It was a plotline, not a story, and it got all of the “closure” that it merits. Daenerys was there practicing to be Queen. However, she’s done her internship and has moved onwards. Bringing it up again would not bring about “closure” any more than opening a door just to reshut it again would do. It’s not going to affect her character evolution anymore, and thus it is not going to affect the story anymore.
YG and Cersei cannot offer the same type of competition. Cersei is an adversary and a usurper, nothing more. YG, on the other hand, is going to be a character moment: does Daenerys adhere to the values of primogeniture (which has been the sole reason that she really has stuck to this task), or does she think “I have goals and visions for Westeros that I want to see fulfilled.” It’s wrong to not work for the betterment of humanity and (in their world) it’s wrong to stand in the way of someone with a stronger claim to a lordship. So, either way, Daenerys does something wrong: and that’s the key to these stories!
Mel,
Yes what you say makes sense about cersei …
Iam just baffled where this criticism comes from in regards to dany when there is every male character who is treated more well and good and sympathetic opposite of dany…starting from jorah tyripn and even hizdar they all had changes so they can look good but dany they gave her material where she seems unsympathetic and eventually a bully..
But I don’t believe YG will be surviving that long…he will die in winds of winter ..I know people have this theory about dance of dragons ..I dont think people actually know what it refers to…
Cersei will for sure take the throne and YG will sidetracked battling in reach against Euron…
Keep in mind that this is a character drama. YG has to be a foil for one of the main characters, and Daenerys is the most obvious main character for him to be a foil. That also means that he has to stick around long enough to present Daenerys with whatever personal crisis that he will induce.
Otherwise, he’s just empty plot-for-the-sake-of-plot, and although I do not have the surety that GRRM will avoid such follies that I once had, I still have some hope!
To you, perhaps: but to many viewers (and given the demographics of the show, probably most of them!), there is little one could do to the likes of the Essosian nobility that would look like “bullying.” Beating up the bully is not bullying, after all!
Wimsey,
I would be very surprised if he survives Winds …
I don’t have that hope when it comes to GRRm and his new set of characters …euron along with ceesei is more of a foil to dany than YG …YG will be the treason commited by varys and ilyrio and Jon con and failing spectacularly like every single one of their plans and I guess it will be good that Adrianne perishing along with him…YG is similar to stannis as in they both are red herring to dany and lies who will not live up to meet dany…
I agree with you there ..it applies to kraznys and yunaki slaver but not with hizdar …the shoe completely changed him for what reasons am still trying to understand
I do think that Dany is a good person, who wants to help people. And even good persons will make mistakes, I have no problem with that. (Jon, Sansa, Arya, and pretty much everybody else made mistakes along the way)
But some of Dany’s decisions, I just can’t relate to (especially, as I mentioned earlier, I think Dany is a good person). I’m just giving one example: I understand that under the circumstances people need to kill their enemies, so I am not against her killing anybody (or ordering their deaths). However, I just refuse to think that a generally good person would do that in a painful way: like burning someone alive or crucifying them. That’s the exact reason I’m not a fan of Stannis either. (Mel is a bit different, it comes from her religion, and she genuinely believes in what she is doing. It definitely makes her interesting, but I don’t think she is a good guy, in the way Dany is).
Arya might be a killing machine, but she doesn’t torture, she gives a quick death (in the books anyway). Jon is the same.
One can say that those people deserved to be tortured, but I just don’t think it matters (to me). I can hate all the antagonists of the story, because they torture other people. I don’t want to see the good guys doing the same – because, for me, it will make them less of a good guy, and therefore I won’t like them the way I liked them before. I may like them as characters, and still find them interesting, but from that point on, I will always struggle to see them as someone to root for. That’s my problem with Dany: She is a good person, and I just can’t root for her. I don’t wish her anything bad, I’m just not interested in her. Things might change now, as she is coming to Westeros, and hopefully will meet other characters as well. Depending on her future decisions, I may warm up to her again. Right now, I’m not that interested.
(side note: my jugdement may be clouded by book experience, I am more forgiving of show-mistakes if they didn’t happen in the books)
Aszusz,
You bring up a good point …
Dany is kind and good to whom she. Sees her people. ..bit she is ruthless when it comes to her enemies and the way she is punishing them…and she acts more on impulse when she sees that her people has suffered or harmed …and sometimes it turned out to be a mistake and I lguess this makes her more human …
Dany wouldn’t have crucified if they didn’t crucified the children in the first place …after all she left yunkai untouched but she is welcomed by crucified children and it triggered her ruthless side and especiallyto see it’s children who are dany’s soft spot nailed to posts ..she became blinded by fury and vengeance…
Its not like Ramsey or cereei where they enjoy torture or sadistic enough to initiate it….
Dany’s action was more of a vengeful response to their actions…an eye for an eye …
Do I support it . no I think it was a mistake on dany’s part and a rash decision ..even dany herself admits its mistake and she was blinded by revenge…
I do think as time goes by and more experience she gets she will stop doing this …
But my problem is people reducing entire arc of dany into this one scene and a couple of line if you take bokks and blowing it up..
if you think about it how would other characters would have reacted..seeing that they nailed up 163 children to mock you…I for one have no doubt arya woul have reacted the same way as dany and I believe Jon would have too…
These characters are in different regions and face different kinds of cruelty and it does change them more dark and hardened…
As for the burning goes …Jon has his sword and ghost ,arya her needle and poison and dany as her magic and dragons …
They use what they have …its that simple
Every thread I seem to read right now is getting hijacked by Sansa and to a slightly lesser extent Dany fans bigging them up and getting into flame wars. Please can we just keep on track of the article and not debate endlessly the pros and cons of our favourite characters.
Lord Parramandas,
Same here… I think shes littlebit boring cuz she always wins and you know what to expect.
On a meta level, I agree wholeheartedly with you; on an intra one, it seems to raise quite a few questions about the character.
Structurally and narratively speaking, Essos is indeed Daenerys’s training ground, the place where she has to hone her skills as ruler before she can upgrade and join the Westerosi fray. However, the inhabitants of the cities she frees perceive the situation very differently; to them, she is their queen and savior.
Her subjects call her “mother” but her arc, both in the books and on the show, is more reminiscent to that of a young woman who babysits other people’s kids to practice her child rearing skills before she can have children of her own. That is quite the dichotomy… The show even went so far as to state it fairly bluntly when Tyrion told Daenerys she was about to enter the “great game”. I can only wonder : do the Bay’s former slaves know they are not, and have never been, part of the “great game” for their Mhysa ?
Therefore, like Mel, I believe the ultimate fate of Meereen does matter. It matters because it cristallises not just Daenerys’s achievement as a ruler so far but also the profound contradiction between her narrative arc, as understood by meta observers, and her in-universe stated purpose, as interpreted by the characters themselves.
hmm… So logically: the Wall will come crumbling down in this season. May not even be the final episode or it may. So dream of Spring will not even come to pass in this season.
By thinking about what is going to be a title’s name, we need to figure out what will happen. The main families are Stark, Lannister, Targaryen, Arryn, Baratheon, Tyrell, Tully, Greyjoy, Martell. The titles need to be able to be based on more than one charachter and be general. In this short time left, there is no time to be based on one charachter.
IMO: a dream of Spring will be a title of the 8th seasons’ episode. Not before. It will be about when all the wars are done, ( makes me think about that youtube song about Robb Stark and what will be left when all wars are done) and the surviving people trying to make this country work again. That last episode will show who seats the Iron Throne, if there will be still one left. And what has happened to our fav characters. And because we all know Bran Stark will be the endgame, in this episode it will become clear how Bran Stark brings the endgame.
IMO the last episode of this season should be about the Nights King marching into Westeros. And we will figure out why there must always be a Stark at Winterfell.
In this season, it’s coming to an end, the wars in Westeros. At the final episode, the ones left standing will face the Nights King. IMO the ones left standing will be: Dany as only one left standing in the throne room of Kings Landing with Sir Pounce, Balerion the cat and some dragon(s) with… Mellisandre and Quaithe (bc they are family, like for real). She will have send Jon ( on the back of Rhaegal) and Tyrion ( on the back of Viserion) away to their homes. Olenna Tyrell will have taken up arms with… Gendry ( as Gendry doesn’t have a clue how to rule a house without someone to teach him, and Oleana has no heirs left). Jon & Arya & Sansa & Bran & Meera & Howland & two direwolves who will make babies, together with Benjen Stark ( cause he will have found a way to come back to Winterfell) will take up a sword and defend the North like the Starks they are. Tyrion will be left standing in a room in Casterly Rock and look out the window, with Varys at his side. Oleana Tyrell, Gendry and Davos will defend the Storm Lands and the Reach. Yara and Theon will defend the Storm Lands… maybe with help from a Stark. Bran probably finds enough trees.
Edmure Tully, his Frey wife and babe trying to defend the Riverlands. Robin Arryn trying to defend the Vale ( with the Old Lord standing at his side and Littlefinger throw out of the Moondoor, maybe Sansa will have gone that way to help out her family). Jorah Mormont and Lyanna Mormont together defending Bear Island ( bc Jorah will break his vow to Dany bc of family love). Tormund will go with Brienne and try to defend the Island of Tarth. Sam will come running back with Gilly and baby Sam to Jon and tell him on the last minute how you kill White Walkers. Next thing the whole Wall will come falling down and Dolorous Edd will or run to Winterfell or send a raven that the Wall has fallen. Dorne will be death because even in Westeros Karma follows you. The Martells will not be forgiven for murdering their own family.
so here are my thoughts about the titles.
– ‘ Family’ or ‘ I am’ or ‘ Destiny’ -> because in this episode families will come together, and people will come to understand what their family moto is. In this episode they will come to understand where their loyalities lie and who they are for real. Here Cersei probably dies… or Jaime will walk away from her and give his sword to Dany or Jon ( family of Prince Rhaegar). With some luck Howland makes his appearence.
– Ice dragon ( can be about a dragon turning into a white, can be a real ice dragon, can be about Jon).
– A song of Fire and Ice or the Three-headed Dragon or the Prince that was promised.
– The Long Night or Here we Stand.
Elien,
I like how you think!
Ser Pounce must be pretty old and grizzled by now. 😛
ACME,
I appreciate all your comments and analyses (though I might not necessarily always agree, haha!) because often they open up new insights, angles, ways of thinking for me.
I know you’re French, and I’m Finnish, so we might not be sensitive enough to issues that are hyper-sensitive in the U.S.
All that said, I really like your point that Dany in Meereen, trying to rule over people, a people alien to her, is portrayed as her “apprenticeship”. After that, they don’t matter, because she now embarks on her true destiny, ruling over the people of Westeros.
So Essos and all Essosi peoples are just a practice ground, practice enemies, to her, before she goes to fulfill her true destiny in Westeros.
Oooft. That’s actually pretty harsh. Almost cultural imperialist, borderline racist. Blame GRRM, who wrote/writes this.
The show probably will never refer back to Meereen (and I’ll thank the gods old and new for it, Meereen was the most boring, tedious storyline) but I cannot help wondering what will happen there under Daario, a person singularly unsuited to governing a broken society.
Terribly nice of you to say. And to be honest, sometimes, even I do not agree with myself 😉
That is entirely true and to be kept in mind…
In and of itself, the idea of Essos serving as an internship for Daenerys is not particularly problematic. It is a common enough trope for a protagonist to go through some sort of training montage to acquire the skills s/he will need during the story’s climax.
Had Daenerys decided to stay all her life in Essos to govern the people she had freed and had she been unexpectedly forced to return to the Seven Kingdoms by circumstances, the storyline would have been perfectly fine and thematically coherent.
However, Daenerys’s Essosi adventure is rendered less fine, less coherent and, ultimately, more uncomfortable by the fact that she has always been more or less aware she would eventually go back to Westeros and was using Essos as her training ground. Yet, in spite of that knowledge, she has allowed her people to view her as their “mother”. Now, it so happens that parents do not plan to leave their children once they can barely walk on their own.
That symbolic contradiction has to be addressed at some point, I fear.
I wish I could be a source of optimism on this matter. But, in all honesty, I cannot.
Welcome to the club! Missed the eventual landing spot, though…
https://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-season-6-premiere-red-woman-recap/#comment-586685
Oedipus and Jocasta were strangers as well. It was the aftermath of the Awful Truth being revealed that made for epic drama. And I expect something very similar to take place at the end of GoT/ASoIaF, especially if it’s Surprise Twincest.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SurpriseIncest
The Sybian,
They are aunt and nephew and I’m personally very much against incest in GoT and this inbreeding is also a reason why I’m not fan of House Targaryen in general.
Could be, of course.
GRRM having specifically stated that Jon is 8-9 months older that Daenerys is the main argument against the Twins theory, but I can think of a good reason for him having to recite his own canon in such a case, instead of saying e.g. “keep reading”.
I also have to wonder how well could Aisling Franciosi, Robert Aramayo, the two extras portraying the midwives and perhaps even Leo Woodruff (“Howland Reed”) keep such an unbelievably huge secret.
But there have to be reasons more important than nostalgia behind Daenerys’ persistent recurring memories of the House with the Red Door (book version).
I don’t share this thesis’ author’s certainty about many of his points, but I generally agree with most:
http://thelasthearth.com/thread/572/dany
Lord Parramandas,
Incest doesn’t work for Targaryens the same as in our real world.It’s magic.
Jenny,
Agreed. Although the concept behind some actual royal houses’ inbreeding has been the same: genetic superiority, preserved through a pure bloodline’s properties, gifted by their god(s).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_intermarriage#Inbreeding
GRRM probably puts a more tangible spin on this superstition, depending on the practical importance of the “blood of the dragon” and how the Valyrians came to aquire their distinctive looks and affinity to fire and dragons.
Something that should, to various degrees, be explored at the end of GoT/ASoIaF, the upcoming Fire & Blood and a possible new show, if the budgets allow The Rise and Fall of Valyria to be made into one.
If only Asbaek, the writers and the directors would actively try to emulate Daniel Day-Lewis’ character and performance in Gangs of New York…
In some ways “moustache-twirling” and “menacing” at the same time, in the best possible way.
If there’s anything not true about her origin story, this episode should be the perfect opportunity to start dropping hints, whether minor or major.
There is only one Daniel Day-Lewis, alas.
Damn…
The Sun: Friend or Foe?
More on this in the final season of GoT 🙂
…and he’s enjoying retirement…
Don’t look at me, just posted it as I found it.
And no photoshop skills whatsoever 🙂
There should be an episode titled A Wink Is On Purpose.