Episode 277 – Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken
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Weddings, beddings, hate and love in a garden. Crossing the halfway point, we move further into what has become an increasingly dark fifth season. Terri Schwartz joins for a podcast’s first discussion of “Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken”.
Discussion Topics
Sansa’s wedding night
Contingency plans
A lioness has claws
Contrasting Ser Loras
The game of faces
A party of pirates
Question the dragon
A fight in the gardens
Owns of the Episode
Terri’s recap
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People keep saying this assault is not in the books, but it IS (albeit for a different character). Is it simply because they changed it to Sansa?
Poor Jeyne. Apparently nobody cares about you.
Wow. First episode I actually couldn’t finish
Great episode. Agreed with every part of the discussion.
Jeyne is not Sansa (and, yes, there’s been some discussion about the use of it in that context too, but there’s a huge issue when you do something like this with a lead character, going completely against her own character arc, for the benefit of another character).
Sean C.,
That’s all well and good for the objections to this scene based on character, but I’ve seen and heard so much talk (including on this episode of GOO) about how the showrunners are supposedly “inserting” rape into the story on a general level. But Ramsey does even worse to Jeyne in the book. Shouldn’t at least part of the uproar be leveled at the books and George?
The rape scene does serve an important purpose. It’s one of the major moments that begin to turn Reek back into Theon, which is NOT something that’s already been happening, contrary to what Zack said. It’s also another big factor that turns all the other northern lords against Roose Bolton and raises tensions within Winterfell. But that’s in the book, anyway.
I’m sick of this “why show it if it serves no purpose” excuse. Everything in a narrative serves a purpose. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it different.
I’m sorry but how do you know that this was done to simply further Ramsay’s character? I personally think based on Myranda’s dialogue about boring Ramsay between herself and Ramsay and herself and Sansa that this served the purpose of showing submissive Sansa vs the Sansa that learns to manipulate Ramsay. It would match with her recently released chapter from the Winds of Winter in which Sansa learns to manipulate Harry the Heir. Why would George release that chapter at the beginning of the season? I think it was to reassure fans that though Sansa’s storyline appears different, it has the same outcome by the season’s end.
BaelorBalerionBaelish,
He released that chapter because of publisher pressure. But more likely, he released it to stake out the differences between his story and the show’s. We haven’t seen anything this season that indicates Sansa will be manipulating Ramsay. Indeed, she has not manipulated anyone this season; she has been completely passive as an actor (and no, talking back to Myranda is not a contrary example; Sansa did that sort of thing in season 2 as well, and more to the point, that scene’s purpose is to show that Myranda is right and Sansa is wrong — it does not bolster the character, it undermines her, when linked to the following scene).
BaelorBalerionBaelish,
Lol, George is doing everything humanly possible to distance himself from the show at this point. If he DID release that chapter because of what he knew would happen in S5 (he says it was his publisher’s doing), it wasn’t to reassure fans that it would be the same in the books, but different.
My cock-merchant has a first name, it’s O-S-C-A-R; my cock-merchant has a second name it’s M-A-Y-E-R!!!
“There’s no way to advance your story aside from raping your characters?”
They did the same with chopping of Theon’s penis. The outcry was far less, because Theon is not a woman and thus the feminists don’t react, or they blame it on the victim. Thus we’re left with the conclusion that rape is apparently far worse then removing ones member. Rape is bad, really bad, but I’d put the removal of something so defining to a person as their sexual organs, such as a penis, or outer labia, or breasts in such a way as even more horrendous, no matter the gender.
Also
You can’t know it goes against her character arc, because you don’t know what happens in her character arc. Perhaps something similar is in store for her with Harry the Heir. You also don’t know it is solely for the benefit of another character. I realize you think you know that, but unless you have a crystal ball, you don’t. As for Jeyne not being Sansa, um, well, no she isn’t. She’s Jeyne. Does her not being Sansa somehow make it more acceptable?
I can’t wait to look up the Robson and Jerome video. 🙂
I would have rather the show tell Sansa’s story as it will be in the books, and in the show since Sansa doesn’t have an actual plan how the hell this is suppose to play out as anything but pointless is beyond me.
BUT: The major themes of the show is power and agency. How do you tell a story about power and agency that pretends that rape doesn’t exist? It wouldn’t be honest. It would be a story lie. It shouldn’t pretend. But that’s not the same thing as saying this is the natural progression of Sansa’s story. This version of Sansa’s story feels very artificial, and that too is a story lie.
By and large the scene is true to the Reek storyline, someone can even say this was a watered down version
The scene however is not true to Sansa’s arc and how she handles Hth
I can understand streamlining and making Sansa Poole and Ramsay the Heir but this wasn’t done properly at all
As I said elsewhere, if Sansa had adapted and had Myranda brought into watch for example or something as a bit like the pregnancy announcement screwing up his dinner routine with Sansa and Reek this would have psychologically countered Ramsay, similar to how Sansa/Alayne managed to counter “Harry the horrible” at the Lemoncake Vale feast
What happens then? Ramsay has to deal with Myranda, if he gets “bored of her” and kills her off Sansa has managed to get rid of a nutty rival who had previously been harrassing her, alternatively Ramsay has to soothe ruffled feathers
I can abide streamlining and substituting characters but do it properly and keep it consistent
As for Dorne, nothing I have seen suggests they couldn’t have had 2/3 Sand Snakes and still kept Arianne Martell in
As much as I like this podcast the guy who read the books needed to take control. I’m not sure which one It is because two of the guys have the same voice. Book Ramsay is an awful awful person who does much worse things in the book. The fact is the outrage is there is because it’s not a throwaway character like Jeyne which is ridiculous.
That scene was awful to watch but if you’ve read the books you understand why the show runners needed to do it. Show watchers need to hate Ramsay and apparently cutting off theons wang didn’t do it. This did it. I want to see Lightbringer shoved through his heart
Zeus,
By the way. King Stannis deals with rape in the proper way. He’s a good dude
I hope you guys don’t take this the wrong way. I’ve been a fan of GOO and have listened to all the recap podcasts since you guys first got on WiC. But it would be nice if there was a time slider on here as I couldn’t take more rehashing of the rape scene. I block all 3rd party cookies and ads so if there is a time slider & I’m just blocking it, I apologize. Also, I would have liked one of you to defend the scene or at least play devil’s advocate. Certainly you all are welcome to your own opinions but I’m getting tired of the ‘serves no purpose’ and ‘the writers are rape fanboys’ arguments. Like others have pointed out, something very similar and implied much worse happens to the character Sansa is filling in for. To me it does drive both Theon and Sansa’s plot lines. I don’t know why people are saying this shouldn’t have happened because Sansa was starting to ‘toughen up’ or whatever. I think it’s very realistic that when some people try to step up they get knocked back. Most people aren’t going to become complete bad asses right out of the gate (although I also thought for a second she was going to pull a blade out of her sleeve). What she has been through to this point will serve to help her deal with this situation rather than falling apart like she would have at the beginning of the story. I’m also not sure Ramsey is the kind of person you could seduce as easily as someone like Joffrey and Sansa is nowhere near the seducer Margaery is. Of course I was horrified by the act but I didn’t have a problem with the scene being in this particular show. Having said all that, this was still probably one of my least favorite episodes of the entire series. The Dorne stuff was just incredibly hokey (except for the Bronn singing) and didn’t live up to GoT standards in my opinion. And I’m sad to say that considering B Cogs wrote this episode.
Also, something I read elsewhere, regarding Littlefinger not knowing about Ramsey, apparently Ramsey’s exploits are not well known in show canon like they are in book canon. So it’s not out of the realm of possibility that he really doesn’t know Ramsey’s true nature.
This wasn’t for the “benefit” of Theon alone. Yes, it is the breaking point for him, but it is an inflection point for Sansa unless the writers are completely daft. It is also the seed of Littlefinger’s destruction, in my opinion.
JThe bizarre overreaction from males to try to prove that they’re socially progressive is getting tired at this point. I can say this as a mild progressive male, of course rape is awful. But you’re reading or watching A song of ice and fire not Harry fucking potter. Unless I stopped reading too soon and Harry got raped but dimbledore
Chad Brick,
Theon needs a breaking point much like in the book.
GRRM has already said he’s not interested in doing rape POVs. And he’s been doing everything he can to distance himself from this development while not publicly breaking with the show. So no, I rather doubt something similar is in store, because it does not fit with Sansa’s arc — which you can see in the show, because it does not fit there either.
Yes it did. I don’t know what audiences you’ve been familiar with, but people get that Ramsay is evil, and want him dead (particularly those who find his plotline repetitively gruesome — a criticism that, yes, I also have about the book — and just want it to end). There was no need whatsoever to have Sansa raped just to make people hate Ramsay even more than they already did.
What does this bring to Sansa’s arc that wasn’t already there? She’s already been brutalized repeatedly; that’s why this is a complete rerun of a story she’s already been in. As for “the seed of Littlefinger’s destruction”, not only is it lame storytelling to make an act of Ramsay, of all people, the reason for her to turn on Baelish, if that’s happening in the books (and it will) there is already a story reason for it (one actually relevant to the things Baelish has actually done to Sansa’s family). Another one was not needed.
Zeus,
Which could have been done plenty of other ways. Raping one of the female leads and regressing her arc was not an appropriate way to do it.
This wasn’t the first time I listened to GoO wishing fervently that it was a call-in show; it’s generally that good. I just want to be involved.
I have my own opinion on the reasoning for Sansa’s rape, and I just went into a bit of it in detail in my own Twitter post thread. For those of you that already read it–I apologize that you have to read it again.
(Actually, my advice is to skip it. ;D)
But here goes. I’m taking my shot at this:
(Unsullied Warning: There are mild “this is what happened in the books instead of the show” spoilers. If you wish the remain PURE and completely Unsullied, well, skip this altogether.)
There is a large amount of “Why would David/Dan/Bryan do that to Sansa’s story?” conversation happening, as if Sansa were an island unto herself. Some of the complaints have been that the camera went to Theon rather than staying on Sansa, effectively stealing her scene.
But the problem with that is, this isn’t just Sansa’s story arc. This is Theon’s arc, and it is Ramsay’s arc as well. Some people say having Ramsay rape anyone is brutally unnecessary since we already knew he was a psychopath. But we still need the tipping point. We still need the moment that hits hard enough to push Theon down his own arc.
Whether the show takes any path akin to the books or not, the “tipping point” scenario is (with regard to ASoIaF) A. canon, B. absolutely necessary, and C. much, much worse in the books than on what we saw on our television screens.
If your argument is simply “Sansa didn’t deserve that,” then yes, of course, no one deserves it. Jeyne Poole didn’t deserve it.
I love Sansa. She is my second-favorite character in the series, second only to Theon. And I would have loved for Sansa to have had her book arc in the Eyrie, and for Theon to have had his arc in Winterfell, and for them never to have crossed paths.
But this is a ten-episode television season that, for better or for worse, is attempting to pack in the stories from two very thick novels. (Purportedly so that the final 2 seasons are then free to cover the final 2 books.) There is no room–and probably less money–to do a separate Sansa-at-the-Eyrie arc in the current format, just as there’s no room to do a separate Winterfell story…
…and a separate Dorne story, and a separate Jaime story…
You have to amalgamate. There is no choice not to.
So logic: you get Sansa in Winterfell, and you get Jaime in Dorne. (Could you have gotten Sansa in Dorne and Jaime at Winterfell? Sure. I’ll let you all debate the end results of those new arcs however you will.) (Might be some damned good fanfiction, actually.)
Or instead do you just remove Sansa from the season? If you do that, if you keep Sansa safe and warm and tucked away, who plays her role at Winterfell? Who plays the Jeyle Poole role? Are you bringing in an altogether new actress to play this role? Is this going to resonate more or less?
Or do you deny Theon his arc? Because you dislike seeing rape depicted on your screen?
If your answer is “Hell yes,” then I have no argument, and we agree to disagree. But I want it, and I want to see Sansa active and playing the Game of Thrones and not Bran’d off for the season and forgotten. So I accept this nasty, wrenching, horrible, and altogether necessary scene–and I understand exactly why they did it.
Axechucker,
Well said.
Greenjones,
I second.
Axechucker,
I don’t buy that reasoning. If you accept that combining these arcs was inevitable, Theon’s big moment could have been achieved any number of other ways, without reverting Sansa to pure victim mode and derailing her own arc, not to mention doing something to her that should irrevocably change her character if the show is at all honest about the impact of that moment. Having her be raped solely to serve Theon’s arc is a gross disservice, and an unnecessary one.
Sean C.,
Sean C.,
That’s a fair enough thing to say, and I’m honestly not opposed to that way of thinking. I would suggest it might not be as impactful… but I can’t say yet. Get back to me at season’s end I guess.
(Or plot out how you would have done it to make it hit as hard and show us.)
I’m curious though: are you suggesting the show might have taken an altogether different route from the books, i.e. no Jeyne Poole either?
Rygritte,
Which already happened on the show. Indeed, last season the show actually took the character further than the books have, in some ways (albeit with some ropy logic, and shoddy buildup)…only to throw it all away and revert her basically to the second season.
If the show was set on bringing Sansa to Winterfell to combine these plots (which I think could also have been done in a number of more sensible manners, such as by having her in disguise as Alayne — that alone would eliminate a bunch of this plot’s plausibility issues), I think Theon’s starting to break free of Ramsay could have been arrived at without anybody being raped, so yeah, I don’t see an inherent need for a Jeyne.
The basic return of Sansa to Winterfell could on its own have had that impact. Indeed, if you look at the earlier episodes, we can see that Theon remembers Sansa, and he’s avoiding her because he’s ashamed. The lengthy dinner sequence, too, where Ramsay makes “Reek” apologize for what he did. There’s no reason the writers could not have continued with that theme; even play up Theon’s consciousness that Sansa is in danger (“You shouldn’t be here”), his wanting to expiate at least one of his sins by confessing (which I expect will be a plot point going forward anyway).
This show has played around with character motivations and impetuses all the time, pretty much since the first season. They’ve radically altered this particular plot too, in terms of the participants, the nature of things at Winterfell, etc. If the writers really thought that “Bolton rape” was the one thing about this plot that was absolute, I find that both rather disturbing and deeply uncreative.
Sean C.,
Sean it’s not just to serve his arc. It’s to serve both of theirs. But you would have complained either if they showed Sansa or theons face regardless
The show needs a Manderly. And Freys for the pie. Doesn’t need Jeyne Poole or Sansa in Winterfell. Show me the North Remembers for realz.
spacechampion,
Word. I wanted me some Rat Coom and some pies
Sean C.: only to throw it all away and revert her basically to the second season.
Isn’t it more realistic or common to experience times of strength and weakness and strength again?
That’s the thing, though: It doesn’t serve Sansa’s arc. Hence, why it wasn’t in there to begin with. It’s a complete regression to a theme she’s already dealt with, and required them to completely throw away all of her prior character development and skill advancement to make her a pure victim again.
Rygritte,
In storytelling, you don’t negate characters’ prior development by having them go back and relearn stuff they already know, particularly when that character was only just being allowed some agency by the show after four seasons (seasons where the writers had regularly changed her plot to make her less active than she was in the novels).
Sean C.,
You haven’t seen Sansas arc so I doubt you have authority to comment. Please come back at the end of the season.
Granted I haven’t either but the show runners have done a great job thusfar. Other than the dorne. But that’s more George’s fault for being sucky
Also again why a song of ice and fire is interesting is because character arcs aren’t always positive much like in real life. Sometimes you have a good week and then you have a bad week.
I’m glad somebody said this, cause it’s what I’ve been thinking for like a year now.
I’d amend this statement by switching socially progressive with overly sensitive.
There’s nothing wrong with being socially progressive. Neurotically trying to censor everything that is personally distasteful to you, on the other hand, has gotten way out of control. In a perfect world, rape wouldn’t exist in any form, but we’re getting to a point where even mentioning rape in a fictional setting is enough to get you in hot water. And the current trend seems to be fake mob-mentality outrage at sexual assault. I’ve already seen countless people in places like Twitter and Tumblr who’ve outright said they don’t know anything about GoT, but they’re “OUTRAGED” at this atrocity!~
It’s not real. People need to control their emotions. An adult, medieval fantasy story is not going to have trigger warnings for you, much less the real world.
I find it strange that people keep referring to this as derailing Sansa’s agency, or completely negates everything she’s learned so far.
Smart, competant, strong women can be taken advantage of and raped. In this context, the marital rape was pretty much unavoidable, the fact that Sansa didn’t maneuver her way out of it doesn’t in any way weaken any of the development she’s had before. If Margaery got married to Ramsay (someone a lot smarter than Joffrey), the night would have gone similarly (probably no Reek watching but that’s probably the only major difference). Hell, her future with Joffrey would perhaps have had some nights like that, that’s why Olenna poisoned the guy! To say that Sansa could have avoided being raped somehow underestimates Ramsay specifically and the unescapeable nature of marital rape in Westeros generally.
No one thought Lisbeth Salander was suddenly a weak character the moment she got raped. Why do we think that somehow, because Sansa went through what many women go through, she has somehow regressed and gone back to being a S2 version of herself? Is there any dramatic arc in which someone advances, and just keeps advancing until the end of a story, with no setbacks?
If Sansa becomes a player through political marriage without any of the trauma that so often comes with Westeros marriages, it woukd have been too smooth a path for her, a risky and perilous path that conveniently avoids anything she’s risking of any peril. They shouldn’t sugarcoat consummation, it woukd have been inauthentic.
Axechucker,
Couldn’t agree more. I’m tired of people jumping on the Rape Is a Bad And Lazy Plot Device Bandwagon every.single.damn.time, be it out of conviction, social pressure, self-censorship, or whatever else.
It’s a truly lazy intellectual exercise designed to shut down any discussion and paint the ‘other side’ as some kind of rape apologists or oblivious and ignorant human beings. *That* is cheap and *that* is dishonest, not those who choose to depict it respecting the actors and as being as tasteful as possible.
Hodor Targaryen,
Combining you and Kenny, this was going to be my exact point. The main problem however is that you can’t put Margaery in the position without Reek watching on, since it’s precisely the context which makes people scared that Sansa’s agency will be taken away.
One addition: since season 2, Sansa’s arc has ALWAYS been finding strength in her own personality despite continuous abuse. The same was true for season 3 and 4, where she continually was brutally ripped out of fantasies and put back into reality.
Now this may affront some people, but in a way the same has happened now. It is exactly the question Terri was asking. If we look at the end of season 4 and the beginning of season 5, Sansa was depicted as a sudden badass who nearly controlled everything and everyone around her, who was a ‘player’ of the game, who stood on her own. It was implied the character felt the same way, until Littlefinger revealed where they were headed. From then on, she feared that understanding the game is not the same as playing it. Still, Littlefinger held up the illusion of choice and empowerment, both in front of Moat Caillin and in the dungeons of Winterfell. The horrible truth about life is that people never are really in charge, there is no such thing as absolute agency, in reality you are never able to be completely alone. You can understand the world we live in, understand the social structures, but they still are very real and sometimes very painful. The reason why I care for Sansa is that she is one of the most real people in the show, much much more so than the Sand Snakes for instance. I felt absolutely beaten by what happened last episode, but I would never say it should not have been there. The fact that everyone is so devastated is perhaps because that we too were brutally ripped out of our fantasies FOR Sansa.
Did the rape absolutely have to happen? I do think so, unfortunately. The submissiveness of Reek is so extreme that we have to feel him break at that moment. The naturalism of the GoT world is such that not having this marriage consummated in this way would have been lying to the audience, unfortunately. Is it against Sansa’s story arc? I do not think so, quite the opposite, it is confirming the pattern which keeps empowering her in an extremely twisted way. It is not a ‘plot device (as The Mary Sue claims), like the Jaime-Cersei rape scene was, it is the central issue of the entire subplot in Winterfell for Sansa and Reek. I do not think the makers reveled in what they did to Sansa, there were some comments before the season started that imply they had great difficulty with it.
The true telling will be in how they handle the rest of the subplot, how she becomes stronger after this and retains her agency in what happens, as has been noted already. I feel quite hopeful, but we will have to see.
All of this being said, I think there are some problems with the discussion in the podcast. First, there is absolutely no discussion possible if this was rape. If there is any positive about these scenes (also the Jaime-Cersei scene), it is that in discussing it, people are made very clear that this is rape and hopefully people will become more sensitive to it in the real world. This is why it is dangerous to make this topic taboo. The Daenerys scenes in the first season were much more dangerous in that way, I think.
Some other questions. Why is it relevant that she ‘lost her first time’? Would it have been better if Sansa would have taken initiative in the ‘consummation’, entirely against her character (and importantly, would it be any less rape in that case)? What was the alternative, from the moment that Sansa was going to Winterfell? Killing Ramsay? Then what?
Still love you guys though. I don’t mind the discussion at all, like Kenny said, but there were some (relevant, intelligent, not misogynist) voices missing in the debate.
I keep hearing people say: yeah we had already rape with deanerys and cersei, but wasn’t it also rape when that two girls went down on Theon. Nobody did care about that moment. Just because he is a boy doesn’t mean you can’t get raped.
spacechampion,
All i hear is blah,blah,blah,i don’t like where Sansa’s story has gone and i’m going to make up some bullshit excuses for the story not making sense that even i don’t believe them .
Axechucker,
very well said
The bottom, presumably. We’ve gone far enough now.
I find it odd that you think “tricking one into marrying a psychopath” is not “relevant to one’s family”. Its obviously relevant to Sansa. Any woman in her position would hate her “uncle” for what he did. Whether out of ignorance or malice is beside the point. This fire will finally push her over the edge and cause her to start playing the game, which will go at least as far as toppling Littlefinger himself.
My guess as to the book’s replacement for this is Sandor Clegane, btw. Our favorite gravedigger likes the Stark girls and knows about (hell, participated in) Littlefinger’s betrayal of their father. I have my doubts about the Hound coming back in the show, so this rape may be a replacement for it in terms of turning Sansa against Baelish.{/spoiler]
Axechucker,
I agree with a lot of what you say. Also, we haven’t seen post-horrible “honeymoon” Sansa yet – there may turn out to be more calcium in her backbone than some folk give her credit for. Somebody may have already pointed this out so apologies if I didn’t notice it – but the mutineer raping one of Craster’s wives scene in the last season was worse than the most recent GoT episode’s concluding scene. At least this time the camera pulled away to Reek’s face and we didn’t see full-on simulated rape.
That being said, there have been stories where a rape has featured as part of the story where the actual act of rape has NOT been depicted on scene. I’ve been watching some re-runs of “The Bill” (a British police procedural series) where one of the police officers had been raped but it wasn’t actually shown on screen, so there might have been a way D&D (or Cogman) could have implied what happened without showing what they did (the tearing of the dress etc) albeit they didn’t show the actual rape.
Ok, I’m tired of the rape talk. Let’s address another more-or-less plot hole:
The show has switched the primary target to Loras, who has the ultimate trial by combat option – HIMSELF. He is one of the greatest knights in Westeros and could rip the guts out of anyone that TV-Cersei or TV-Faith could throw at him.
Book Loras wouldn’t have even been captured by the Sparrows, let alone sat through that farce of a trial. He’d just say “Yep, I may have buggered LF’s little slut. I can’t quite recall. I demand a trial by combat to settle the matter”.
So is TV-Loras some kind of wimp or coward? Yet he beat the Mountain back in S1…
By cheating. 😉
Usually I love you guys. But I think many of the points you make about the Sansa scene make no sense. Why or how would Sansa have learned how to seduce Ramsey? A sociopath who would have seen right through it?
Why do you all seem to forget that this happens in the books to a different character .. why are we giving Martin a pass for his horrible writing.. no one has talked about his story telling that includes all of this. Also I dont recall there being any uproar from season 1.
I also am not sure what people expect Sansa to have done? She fights Ramsay and gets beaten down hurt or tortured worse? I want to know what you really think she could have done. She is not this incredibly strong character yet .. YET.
Why didn’t you invite someone to the podcast who had a different opinion about the Sansa bedding scene?
Would have been so much more interesting to listen to…
For instance, a European with a clear mind…
LOL, thank you for breaking up the monotonous stream of “D&D are ruining the show by having Sansa raped for no reason!!!” tirade.
This conversation is already boring and Ramsay don’t like boring! Let’s put this in perspective that this is a TV show. It’s meant to tell a story that is sometimes, fun, scary, exciting, violent, and generally plays on people’s emotions but in the end it’s a TV show and real life goes on…….Sophie is a young actress not a prisoner to a sadistic husband
The worst eisode in history of this podcast. Everyone had the same opinion.
I stopped after 10 minutes.
John M W,
If anything I think the issues in the book are even more problematic. Jeyne is given no point of view. She isn’t treated as a person or a character. She has no character arc.
She’s there as an object to be abused for the furthering of Theon’s story.
I understand and share the visceral upset over this being done to a protagonist that we watched grow up, and I feel the show deserves the criticism for going there. They changed everything else. This could have been altered. The show chose to do it this way and thus they bear responsibility.
That said, anyone claiming that what is on the show is worse than is what is in the book aren’t really looking at the book. The book is, if anything, more graphic. Jeyne is much more marginalized and her abuse is entirely to service a male character’s story and character arc without any character development or story of her own.
The book version is not less problematic than the show simply because it’s not Sansa in the book. If anything the book version is even more problematic in using rape as a plot device, abusing a woman’s body for the sole purpose of further a male characters arc. That is the core problem. And the book is as bad or worse than the show in this regard.
By the bye, this continues to be an excellent, well thought-out discussion with very little vitriol. Very impressed by how even keel it is.
But that’s just the sort of people we draw. (Usually!)
Re: Terri’s question about Sansa killing Ramsay to potentially “justify” the rape scene.
It wouldn’t justify it at all. It would be a further assault on her character b/c Sansa hasn’t killed someone, she isn’t a killer (not yet, at least). Hate that theory.
Yes. Of course. That scene was horrendous.
ALSO: the Tommen and Margery scene !!! Tommen is twelve, the actor is sixteen (and spoke about how uncomfortable it was to film), and yet the Game of Owns hosts adored that scene ?? it was messed up
Cutting to the chase: the Mary Sue website is making Sansa the Mary Sue of the show.
The Mary Sue was originally a term for a character in teen fan fiction where the young writer would insert her idealized self into stories involving the old ‘Star Trek’ crew. Her Mary Sue self would be the bravest, smartest, prettiest girl in the whole wide world, charming one and all and saving the day.
NO ONE wanted to see Sansa raped, but this seemed to hit hardest the young female fans and their mothers. Young girls identify with Sansa and were still holding out for a Disney princess ending for her. Moms everywhere see Sansa as they would their own daughters: forever innocent, forever pure. And to fathers, Sansa will always be Daddy’s Little Girl.
I myself saw Sansa ultimately becoming a Queen Elizabeth Virgin Queen type, but the show being the show, I kind of understand (without fully approving), the rationale for getting Sansa’s pesky damsel-in-distress virginity out of the way, so that she may move to the next level, for good or ill.
As for her ‘agency’, really, who has true agency on the show? Even Tyrion hasn’t really had it since Blackwater. Sansa’s gift is to endure, and to make us endure with her, until she truly comes into her own.
We can only hope that some aspect of the Northern Conspiracy will be retained, and that Sansa will ultimately be a part of it. Don’t give up on her!
Hitting us where it hurts is what GoT does. Can it go too often to this well? Of course. Has it jumped the shark? Possibly.
But getting audiences to FEEL something emotionally instead of just going on a fan service joy ride speaks to how powerful the show remains, not how ‘bad’ it has become.
Sansa’s rape hit ALL of us hard. Instead of analyzing the scene ad nauseum, perhaps we should look inside ourselves and ask why. The answer is not in D&D, it’s in us.
The rape scene wasn’t necessary in the books, either. It wasn’t the catalyst for Reek to resolve to save Jeyne from this monster. It didn’t do anything for Jeyne’s development, either; it was well-established by that point that she was already a tragic figure. It didn’t do anything for Ramsay’s development, either, as there was no doubt by that point that he was an abusive, sadistic monster. It was a pointless, gratuitous bit of nastiness deployed as far as I can tell for shock value and for no other object, yet another instance of GRRM needing to show how “gritty” and “edgy” he is.
It’s no surprise to me that Sansa’s brutal rape comes off as gratuitous and pointlessly terrible in the show. In that respect, it’s a faithful adaptation of the scene in ADWD.
Rodrik the Reader,
“I kind of understand (without fully approving), the rationale for getting Sansa’s pesky damsel-in-distress virginity out of the way, so that she may move to the next level, for good or ill.”
ahhh, I see, rape is the only option for that? so, rape is like a character development trope for young virgins ?
Renly’s Peach,
Plus it will turn Sansa against Littlefinger, a big flaw in his plan.
Myranda gained a lot of male fans after that scene.
I totally agree that what was done to Theon was rape. And worse. The whole thing was terrible.
However to play out the whole thought process, what if chopping off Theon’s dick was framed as a way for Cersei to watch and to pivot her story so that she changes, and eventually rescues him, while Theon was passive and damsel-like (I chose Cersei because, let’s face it, in early books Theon was something of a villain, not an ingenue like Sansa)
Would Cersei playing rescuer be considered adequate justification for chopping off Theons dick? (Taking into account that I’m hard pressed to think of justification of it under any circumstance). If said dick chopping were to be used, not for Theons arc, but to device Cersei becoming rescuer, would there be charges of this being ‘feminism run amok’?
It’s problematic when females are violated and victimized for the sole purpose of furthering a male protagonists story (and whatever they do on the show, that is what happens in the book). It’s problematic in the reverse as well. But it being female victimized for male arc is sooooooooooooooo much more common. So, so, so much more common. Look up ‘women in refrigerators syndrome.’
I don’t know that a Cersei as rescuer would be enough to justify having Theons dick chopped off for a story. And I don’t know that Reek finding his inner Theon is reason enough to justify Sansa being raped (a justification I’ve seen made).
I don’t know what the show will do. I hope it will allow Sansa to be proactive and a force in her own story (but I’m not confident that it will. The best I can do is hope). But I do think there’s a point in the podcast that the continued damsel-ing of Sansa is overworn ground. And it is taking her storyline backwards in many ways. What’s the end game? To make her stronger? She had grown stronger. To tear away her illusions? Joffrey did that. To make her proactive? Her aim in going along with Littlefinger was her attempt at being proactive. At best at the end of this she might achieve what she mostly already had… And hopefully a dead Ramsey. But is Theons development really cause enough to take Sansa’s character development backwards for the time being?
Would it be cause enough to re-Reek a Theon for Cersei if he could be castrated twice?
I’m dubious.
At any rate, it’s done now. I do hope that they depart from Jeynes story enough that Sansa does more than need to be rescued. If they don’t, they will only have made a worse hash of things.
I want both Theon and Sansa to off Ramsey. Then I want Sansa to best Littlefinger alone. He’s the one who procured her for this utter nightmare.
I think the biggest problem people really are having with this particular scene is that it was Sansa and not that it was the rape though they then tend to turn it to the fact that it was rape. While like many i wish rape wasnt even a thing that we had to discuss. Its an act that happens disgustingly all the time. I mean hell, Law and Order SVU pretty much has been on the air forever how many episodes focus on the most violent and disgusting crimes. But most of those crimes are to people we do not know. Viewers of the show have grown and like Rodrik points out that many viewers have attached themselves to the character. But lets look at some other scenes . .. .
Craesters Keep – All those women were being raped but there was no roar of rage and revolt because those actresses were not main characters in the show
Khal Drogo kalasar – They were raping the women of that village. Nothing was said on the internet or by Politicians or talking heads.
In this case the uproar to me seems to switch from comment to comment sometimes by the same person from rape is bad and being used by the show for shock value to the story arc is wrong for Sansa. If Ramsey had raped an unknown character there would there have been the uproar?
I admit they could have not had it been rape. But what would you rather have had? Should Ramsey have beaten his new wife because hes sicks and demented? That to me is just as bad. Its all bad. There is no good. Were talking about a show that has shown violence towards women and at time men and small children. Was there no uproar about the kids being killed and burned? The talk was more is that really Bran and Rickon?
I get the anger to an extent I just well I dont know. .. hell I could be completely wrong in my thought process.
John M,
Totaly man, she´s not going from stupid girl to Maergery the seductress in one season.
I’ve heard no one mention that as the episode ends, the rape is still happening. It is possible that Theon might act to stop it and kill Ramsey? One could hope
The problem with Sansa’s behaviour in the past two episodes is that not only is she bumped back to her Season 2 situation–imprisoned and at the mercy of an abusive psychopath–she’s playing the game even worse than she was back in Season 2, where her “courtesy armour” was in full force.
At her Season 2 dinner with Cersei, where Cersei was taking delight in needling her just as Ramsay was taking delight in needling her in 5×05, Sansa kept her game face and gamely pretended to be excited about marrying Joffrey. In 5×05, Sansa was smirking at Ramsay after the pregnancy reveal.
In Season 2, Sansa was always polite to Joffrey, Cersei and Tyrion despite her contempt for them; whatever jabs she made were subtle and easily denied (like her “Just as I pray for the king” insult to Tyrion in 2×09). In Season 5, Sansa is rude and hostile to Myranda. Instead of sweetly plying Myranda for information she can use, she nastily calls Myranda out and dismisses her (correct) information about Ramsay as an attempt to scare her. She’s also openly dismissive of Theon in 5×05 and informs him she doesn’t care if Ramsay punishes him, rather than playing along in the hopes of making a potential ally. Sansa’s absolutely justified in being contemptuous of Myranda and in wanting nothing to do with Theon (he did murder her brothers, after all). However, that’s not the smart play, and honestly by this point Sansa should know better. She knew better in Season 2, for crying out loud.
It’s no mark of her growth as a player or her strength that she refuses to play nice with Theon and Myranda as she did with her enemies in Season 2. If anything, it’s a sign of her weakness and her recklessness.
Did you skip the past 2 seasons? Loras is as much a fighter in the show as Aemon. Hell, maybe Aemon might do better in a duel.
They’ve watered down and oversimplified the King’s Landing stuff considerably. And the result is.. a very simplistic story. They’re arresting the queen for false statements? Really vague hearsay statements from a whore, to boot. It’s kinda stupid.
ShireenForQueen,
No, you don’t see. That is not even close to what I meant. That is not what any prededing commenter meant. That is not what D&D and Cogman meant or in any way intended.
It is what YOU are reading into it, based on your emotional reaction to a scene you didn’t like.
Of course there are more ways for Sansa’s character development!
The scene hit hard; I didn’t ‘like’ the scene either. My own fan fiction would have conjured up a Northern Conspiracy scenario that would have turned the wedding ceremony into a brawl and Sansa slashing Ramsay before escaping with Theon.
Perhaps something akin to this will still play out. I certainly hope it does.
But I don’t have my druthers, and neither do you. We only have the show (and, ultimately, the books) we are given. There remains great craft and thought in both, even with what some of us consider catastrophic artistic choices.
Rodrik the Reader,
Please, what did you mean by it? I was quoting and responding to you and your phrasing. I don’t know what D&D/Cogman meant or intended, no, and neither do you for certain; none of us sat in on any private meetings.
You seemed to state that there could be some “rationale” to rape as a means of moving Sansa’s character development along from “pesky damsel-in-distress virgin” which I don’t understand? do you still see Sansa as a damsel-in-distress post Joffrey’s death? that’s her defining characteristic? and what on earth has virginity got to do with damsel-in-distress-ness? it’s all just so reductive
Which “character arc” is this that everything turned against?
You think because you make some changes in your life, that nothing bad is ever going to happen to you again? You use it as fuel to keep going.
Sansa, like everyone else in the real and fictional worlds, has to hit rock-bottom before they can spring back up.
The difference between life and fiction is that fiction needs to make sense.
This is fiction. And it is fiction with limited air time, therefore scenes shown are for the development of story and character. The show chooses to make any number of edits to the books, and this was the choice they made. (Similarly, the blank page provides an infinite number of possibilities. Making a choice is eliminating all of those possibilities except for one — the one they chose. Chose.
Therefore, sure, random terrible things happen. But this is fiction. Specific individuals made specific choices. It’s perfectly valid to discuss and wonder about their choices, and to point out what is disturbing and/or problematic in them– especially if The ones choosing were unaware or oblivious of the subtext of their choices.
This wasn’t happenstance.
This was a choice
And all involved claim that they aren’t arbitrary decisions.
So what was the impetus for the choice? And IF the impetus that it’s okay to regress Sansa’s arc or to violate her only to service a male characters arc, if her arc was changed to further or preserve Theons, then is she being less vales as an individual than him?
I don’t have the answers to this. But I think it is wholly defensible to ask those questions. And if the story does fail to grapple with these things, if it was arbitrary, then criticism resulting from it is justified.
M,
I like this analysis. Sansa showing hints of backbone in Winterfell might well be a poorer choice than her courtesy-as-armor gambit in King’s Landing.
If we are tired of that earlier Sansa, I suspect she is as well!
But Ramsay sees her archness and stiffness as something to be broken. A challenge to him. He wants to break her as he would a horse. As he broke Theon. With cruelty and the Stockholm Syndrome.
On the other hand, Sansa playing nice too much would strike Ramsay and Roose–heck, even Theon–as completely false.
In King’s Landing, she was surrounded by those who had a hand in planning the Red Wedding–and observed social niceties, at least on the surface (Joffrey excepted, of course). In Winterfell, she is surrounded by those who executed the Red Wedding directly and don’t pretend to hide that fact with the refined behavior and class mannerisms of the ‘higher’ nobility.
The Boltons are, after all, an upjumped lower House.
Sansa hated the Lannisters, but she didn’t look down her nose at them. The Boltons disgust her!
Just what posture should she take in her current environment? I’m afraid I don’t have the creative chops to come up with an answer, and neither, I suspect, did the showrunners who put her there.
The Sansa we see may be the only Sansa it is logical to see in this illogical no-win scenario.
Ultimately, Roose only needs Sansa to display reasonable decorum and produce an heir. Ramsay is the danger. He wants to destroy Sansa’s concept of herself–Sansa Stark of Winterfell–and recreate her as a Reekette, if you will (or perhaps a willing flaying or hunting companion?).
Despite his efforts, he will fail. Unbowed, unbent, unbroken, etc. Sansa may not be ‘fighting back’ overtly yet, but she’s taking her trials like a champ. Like a Stark.
I still say she’ll be the Stark to lead them all (Season 7?). Long may she reign!
ShireenForQueen,
Yes, Sansa is the damsel in distress. That is why we’ve all been so protective of her. She is the idealized innocent. Young, pretty, well bred, and with a good heart. And Sophie Turner sells this better than just about anyone I’ve seen! She’s one of D&D’s luckiest casting decisions, and no doubt one of the reasons why they wanted to keep her busy this season.
The trope is not ‘that scene.’ The trope would be that she dodges all dangers in the nick of time and marries her dream prince and lives happily ever after. That isn’t quite possible anymore, not in the same way. She might still get that, but at a price.
I’m a big Sansa fan, by the way, and never understood the earlier Sansa hate. I think we would be in agreement there, yes?
And please let me reiterate that while I might reluctantly condone ‘that scene’ for the power it held (that is, talk myself into finding an acceptable rationale for it), I certainly did not mean to convey that this was the best choice for the show. It wasn’t.
But we’re stuck with it.
Renly’s Peach,
Are you serious? It’s not exactly a fair trial. Olyvar has more evidence, however flimsy, than any of Cersei’s forced witnesses in the books.
Thank you, you put it in a much clearer manner and I understand much better.
I think I misread your initial post and completely balked at the idea that Sansa’s virginity (or, innocence) was a character flaw which needed to be “overcome”, as it were, for the sake of personal growth. Who would say that about Arya and her virginity? Samwell? Brienne? you know?
The backlash arguments are ignorant and short sighted. Argument one, no one knows where this story line is going! Everyone is assuming, especially Unsullied, but no one knows! Assuming it’s main purpose is to move Theon’s story forward is also stupid because YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT’S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT! People are jumping to conclusions before actually seeing it play out. It would be like pausing a movie and complaining about a scenes purpose before seeing what it’s TRUE purpose is and what happens next. It showed Theon’s face not because the sole purpose is how it affects him, but because it spared us the site of her getting banged while telling the audience the act itself is not what’s important. This show is highly unpredictable and assuming it’s about Theon solely is dead wrong. It’s about Sansa AND Theon equally, their shared traumatic abuses and basically imprisonment from Ramsey, and also as has been mentioned, we have not seen how this will effect the characters. I guarantee you Sansa is about to become even more bad ass and strong. Second, this IS SANSA EXERCISING HER AGENCY! She made this choice at the beginning of the season knowing she’d have to fuck Ramsey. As an audience, if you guys have been paying attention, we’ve been told ALL ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF CONSUMMATING THE MARRIAGE and ALL ABOUT THE BEDDING CEROMONY IN WESTEROS!! You people, THIS WORLD IS FUCKED UP LIKE OUR OWN! What Sansa didn’t expect and was shocked at was that he had Reek stay, she clearly knew the extent to his psychoness once Myranda told her about how he hunts girls and Reek staying was the icing on the cake. It was obvious they were headed towards consummating the marriage and that it would be fucked up, it would be a lie to this show and these characters if that didn’t happen. Lots of people are clearly hurt and emmotional that this happened to a beloved TELEVISION character, THIS HAPPENS IN REAL LIFE ALL THE DAMN TIME! Worry about how fucked up it is in REAL LIFE instead of worrying about how fucked up it is in a fictional entertainment show. Worry and complain about the real life problems and dangers happening every day. Be fortunate you’re lives worries are bitching about Sansa Stark, fictional TV character who’s actress LOVED THE SCENE. There has been worse things in the show than this, in a world already established as brutal as our own. SANSA IS A STRONG CHARACTER and for all you people who are whining about how this takes her back, shows no agency, and is just a pointless plot point….JUST SIT BACK AND ENJOY THE RIDE! For all we know this will propel Sansa to be even stronger and to do something, get revenge in some way or hurt Ramsey in some way that is Littlefinger-like that won’t be able to be drawn back to her. All these complaints are premature and the reasons are near sighted and blinded. If ya’ll have a problem just quit the show and miss out on all the epicness that is to come our way. This show is not for the ignorant or the impatient. This show has shown us that we can not guess or expect it to go places, all we can do is sit back and watch how it all unravels.
In the book the rape happens solely to further Theons plot.
Expressing concern that the show may do the same is far from illogical. They cut Sansa’s storyline to use her in Theon’s story.
Do we know the show will use her rape primarily as a way to evolve Theon? No. Not difinitively.
Do we have reason to worry that this might become the case? Given the book plot and the shows spotty track record… Well worry seems a genuine response.
Maybe they’ll succeed.
Maybe they will fail.
Expressing a concern about the way the show is and might employ sexual violence is a valid topic for discussion
Yup, this.
Ghost’s Lunch,
Yes.
Dear GOO,
I’m having a really hard time processing this episode. I’m not sure I’m going to keep watching. But I’ll still keep up with GOO, for sure.
Thanks guys.
ShireenForQueen,
Wow. I don’t think I can come up with an analysis of all things virginal on the show.
However, Sansa’s predicament makes me recall what Brienne said of Lady Cat (paraphrase): ‘You have courage. Not battle courage, perhaps, but a kind of woman’s courage.’
Sansa has Lady Cat’s courage. Maybe even more. She’s young but keeps her head (pun!) in tough situations. Lady Cat gets emotional and acts rashly (Tyrion’s seizure, Jamie’s release).
In this medieval world, a woman’s throne room, her queen’s court, her small council, if you will, is the private room she shares with her husband, and her battlefield is the birthing chamber, where she is in as much danger as any knight on a battlefield–and where she will shed just as much blood. Ultimately, the whole show and the book series is about this, as we’ll see when R+L=? is revealed.
Sansa was in the process of being raised to call upon this ‘woman’s courage’ by Lady Cat and heck, perhaps even that old Septa. Had Sansa had more time with her female mentors, she would have been eased out of her childish dreams and become better prepared to face a potentially dangerous male adversary and, if not win him over, then defeat him in other ways later–perhaps much later (as Cersie did Robert).
She would have been like Margaery or Olenna, only better, because she would have had Cat’s integrity and Ned’s honor.
When show Littlefinger says ‘You were trained by the best’ in King’s Landing, it was through the school of hard knocks instead of at her mother’s knee.
I’ve long argued that the biggest fans of ASOIAF are female. These tales speak to them. The female characters are as varied and richly developed as any I’ve ever read (okay, perhaps I should read more).
As such, Sansa is already as real as real gets, whether she turns into Dark Sansa or not, whether she takes her revenge on the Boltons or not, if she becomes Queen or not.
Oh, and…
Remember the look the old woman in the Eyrie gave when Sansa referred to her betrothal to Joffrey and her arranged marriage to the Imp? That old woman (I forget her name) flashed back to her own arranged marriage(s). Way back when, she went through her own version of the same thing. As did Cersei. As did Olenna. They all triumphed (to varying degrees).
Cat triumphed not over Ned but with him, as they built their love ‘brick by brick’. But this love was only possible because of Ned’s decency–from the honeymoon on.
I suspect show Sansa will take everything Ramsay throws at her. When facing off with the Hound the night of the Blackwater, she told him ‘you won’t hurt me.’ To Ramsay, in taking all his torments, she is telling him ‘you CAN’T hurt me –I am Sansa Stark of Winterfell.’
She will take the hits, regroup, and go on, with or without Theon in tow.
At least, that’s what I want for her. If D&D drop the ball on this, I’ll share your disappointment.
Will all this life experience come together for her? Or is any hope for a Sansa triumph just our version of being ‘a stupid, stupid girl with stupid dreams’?
Is our hope a trope?
Sansa’s petulance this season made perfect sense to me. Emotionally she partially clicked back into season 1 Sansa, just as many of us returning to a childhood home click into old behaviours for a little while. I rhink rhe servant giving Sansa messages reinforced Sansa’s emotional reaction to being in Winterfell.
To me her “this is my home” is akin to Danerys’ s “where are my dragons” but in a softer Sansa way.
The rape was horrible but I think it will serve to push Sansa out of her “I’m back home and it’s my home” mindset. She needs to create the new Winterfell she needs and use the networks that are there, rather than sit back and wait for her servants/septa/brothers to bring it to her.
Why can’t people worry and complain about both?
Bran: Ow, my legs.
Jaime: Ow, my hand.
Ned: Ow, my head.
Oberyn: Ow, my head.
Gendry: Ow, my cock.
Varys: Ow, my cock.
Theon: Ow, my cock.
Robb: Ow, my hopes and dreams and everything.
Jojen: Ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow–BOOM!
Sansa: Ow, my–
Perpetually Offended: To your rescue, m’lady!
Luka Nieto,
Saying you fucked a guy because you know he has a birth mark on his leg is without a doubt the most stupid accusation you can come up with in any trial. Especially after testifying you were also his squire. I imagine there’s about 26 people who know he has a birth mark there.
Cersei brings forth about a dozen people to testify for her in the book — some of them being a septa and the Grand Maester, not the word of one single whore. And there is some doubt whether or not Margaery is a virgin even TO US as the readers. Of course all their accusations begin to fall apart after they lock up Margaery, but the case that got her there was pretty solid.
So no, it’s not even comparable. This Olyvar thing is plain stupid and only in there cause they had no idea what to do with Loras.
Renly’s Peach,
A birthmark in his inner thigh. That’d certainly involve some DEEP squiring.
Completely disagree about the witnesses. They only have their word to back their accusations; and many of them are only acquired under torture. The moon-tea is an absurd piece of evidence; the only actual, direct “evidence” is that she has no hymen… which most noblewoman lack, because of their horse-riding, as Cersei herself admits. Olyvar at least has evidence, however flimsy. Of course, none of this matters, because this is theatre, not a real trial.
I think they treated Loras pretty well this episode, actually. Season 3 was horrendous for him (and Sansa, often in their shared scenes.) For those fearing that the Faith Militant (or, you know, D&D) had suddenly turned homosexuality into a crime in Westeros when it wasn’t in the books, Olenna points out it’s absurd, as this has never been the case in the past and it’s just political posturing. And Finn Jones’s acting when Renly is brought up is just wonderful. We may never get “No candle can replace it” but this was the best next thing. Subtle, yes, yet quite powerful. Hopefully this is developed further and more explicitly in the next few episodes, if we see him in prison.
Luka Nieto,
Well Loras is a high lord. The sole heir of Highgarden in the show. He would have people bathing him regularly. I also imagine you’re gonna see more than a few thighs among other things if you’re a squire to anyone.
And we’re gonna have to agree to disagree on just about everything else. Whether it’s absurd or not, Cersei had a much stronger case in the book. This whole Loras arrest thing is just weak stuff, and arresting your queen on the sole charge of.. false testifying on hearsay is even weaker. I wish they had kept HALF of the complexities this story arc had in the book.
I dunno how, though, cause this season feels rushed and cramped enough as is.
Rodrik the Reader,
Excellent analysis. I too have great hope for an upswing. I suspect there is more than one reason Bryan Cogman named the episode “Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken.”
I honestly believe the tragedies that befell her this episode will only make Sansa stronger.
Luka Nieto,
I know GoT is a fantasy and not real but to some extent it is based on medieval times. Did not most if not all women (who rode – I guess the peasants had to walk) ride side-saddle then? Having said that the show has depicted those female characters who ride as riding astride.
Axechucker,
I agree to an extent, though that is a tricky thing to argue. You know, the stereotype of “going through rape to make the woman stronger”, or just generally the idea that the only way women in fiction can kick ass or be strong is for them to have a particularly tragic back story or daddy issues. I don’t think the show will go the stereotypical route; going by the promo next episode, Sansa will not suddenly become Black Widow; she’s quite touched by what happened, as she should be. Showing the consequences of the rape realistically will go a long way to convincing people this had a point.
Dame of Mercia,
In the books Cersei says most noble women break their hymen riding, yet it’s true they side-saddle… so I guess they practice by doing it the old-fashioned, practical way? Not sure.
Axechucker,
Thank you. I used so much verbiage because this topic is a minefield. Even saying, as you wrote, that this will make Sansa stronger, is full of perils. That is, rape is never to be construed as character building, according to the sensitivities of The Mary Sue people.
I prefer to put it this way. When rapists rape, they defile themselves, not their victims. With every obscene act, Ramsay becomes smaller and more pathetic. What is this little twerp trying to prove, anyway? That he’s a powerful lord to be feared and not the little bastard he really is?
Power resides where people think it resides, says Varys. He would say a similar thing about the psychological mechanisms and underpinnings of fear. Varys would also say that unlike Tyrion, Ramsay is a small man who casts a very small shadow. One day, Ramsay will just blow away… in ‘The Winds of Winter’?
His tortures broke Theon because Theon was already broken. Even before he was Reek, Theon ‘didn’t know his name.’ Was he a Greyjoy? Was he a Stark? Who was his father? By blood, Baylon. By respect and affection, Ned.
If Ned could tell Jon ‘You may not have my name, but you have my blood’ (paraphrase?), Theon could just as well have told Ned, ‘I may not have your name, but you have my heart.’
Theon’s heart is breaking. This was not merely ‘a man’s character building’ at the expense of a woman’s, Sansa’s. pain. It was Theon’s reconnection to a sister probably closer to him than Asha/Yara ever was. He isn’t just Theon again, he is a Stark again.
In terms of family, in terms of Starkness, in the sight of the Old Gods and the New, as brother and sister, he is hers past, present, and future, forever. Even if she never accepts him, even if she can never get past his earlier betrayal, he will be devoted to her for the rest of his life. Show Yara couldn’t bring him back; show Sansa already has.
Could he have gotten there without ‘that scene’? Yes. Dressed for the wedding in Robb’s old clothing (as revealed in the latest Making Of video) might have done the trick. But as that witch told Dany before the ritual to save Drogo (again, paraphrase, perhaps), ‘There can be no life without death.’
Sansa’s ordeal, which she walked into with Stark head held high, isn’t just a plot device for shock value. It is a blood sacrifice, which is as real and holy in the GoT universe as Dany stepping onto the pyre and emerging unscathed, with Theon as gobsmacked as Jorah. Dany didn’t do it for Jorah, and Sansa didn’t do it for Theon, yet both men were saved.
Ramsay has no idea what he unleashed. Or, so I hope…
Steel is tempered in fire. True character is determined by how you overcome adversity, not by how you avoid it.
I’ve been busy and unable to keep up with the comments on these posts, but there’s one thing that’s been going through my mind and I wonder if anyone’s addressed it here. Does anyone else feel sympathy for Myranda? Somehow she caught Ramsay’s attention and she has to do whatever is necessary in order to stay alive (unlike all the other women who have caught Ramsay’s attention). She really has no choice in the matter (entertain him or be tortured to death, basically), so isn’t she his prisoner as well? She seems like a classic case of Stockholm Syndrome, but I don’t know if anyone has ever had a kind word to say about her (probably because she’s mean to Sansa and Theon).
Luka Nieto, Rodrik the Reader,
I actually see it this way: I do believe the worst has happened to her. She has lost nearly all of her family, and has (semi) willingly entered a very dangerous place with a specific purpose in mind. If she had any ethical reservations about doing what must need doing, they are gone after the night she just endured. Winterfell is her home, and I believe she will not only defend it but utilize it to the best of her ability to accomplish her goal. The Boltons can’t kill her, and to actually damage her in any permanent (Theonesque) way would be beyond foolhardy; they need her.
So I don’t believe she will be stronger in any physical sense. I don’t believe Sansa will become Darth Sansa: Super Ninja. But I do believe that Sansa, who is one of the few genuinely good people in this series, now has a very personal grudge to carry out – and any moral hesitation she might have previously held with regard to destroying people she did not truly know are dead and gone.
Trite perhaps to use the tag line: This Time It’s Personal. But if it wasn’t before, that’s exactly what it is now.
And yes, I trust the writers to deliver that (plus or minus a few major curveballs). I can’t wait to see the mayhem.
Darren,
I don’t feel sympathy for Myranda. She gleefully joins Ramsay in his “hunts” and puts arrows into women. Her jealousy will be her downfall. Close behind Meryn Fucking Trant, Myranda is #2 on the list of walking dead.
Luka Nieto,
When I mentioned about the riding side-saddle – well I didn’t sleep awfully well last night so I switched the laptop on and did some internet surfing, including this site. I’m not sure when women made the transition from riding side-saddle to riding astride, but then in a fantasy if GRRM creates his female characters riding astride he is at liberty to do so. I seem to remember Dany was very saddle-sore in the early days of her marriage to Drogo.
Axechucker,
I certainly expect Myranda to die this season because she makes a move against Sansa.
And she probably has to make a move to eliminate Sansa, because if she doesn’t Ramsay won’t need her anymore and he’ll kill her, probably in a horrific way.
Through her scenes this season, hasn’t it been clearly stated that Ramsay will torture and / or kill her if she doesn’t amuse him and be the exact person that he demands she be? Regardless of whether or not she was like that before she fell under his sway, she has no choice in whether or not she changes her behavior because doing so would make her “boring” and be the end of her life.
Eh, Ramsay has pretty much said he intends to keep Myranda as his sidepiece after marrying Sansa; he also admitted he needs Sansa for reasons that have nothing to do with desire (continuing the dynasty) and has warned Myranda that jealousy is “boring.” If Myranda lashes out at Sansa, it won’t be a calculated move to preserve her life because Sansa threatens her position; it will be out of emotion (jealousy, resentment, anger at Sansa calling her out, etc.). If Myranda were going to make a calculated move to preserve her position, I’m guessing she would aim for a threesome with Sansa; Ramsay seemed intrigued at the idea of Myranda finding Sansa “pretty,” and from the castration scene, I’m guessing threesomes were a thing with Violet before whatever Violet did to “offend” Ramsay (getting pregnant?).
Renly’s Peach,
The Olyvar thing. Olyvar’s testimony was not intended to be damning. It was intended to get Loras to Hulk out (as an earlier poster somewhere put it). In doing so, Loras condemned himself.
In testifying for him, Margaery perjured herself.
Too fast? Too neat and tidy? Of course. Just hitting plot points with minimal set-up has been a flaw this season.
The reason people are complaining that not much is happening this season is because too much has been happening too fast to have any meaning (besides that scene that shall not be named).
had to stop listening when you guys talked about Ramsay hunting a woman down and feeding her to dogs like it was no big deal then continued to act like Sansa being raped should get Cogman the chair…unbelievable how out of wack this one scene has gotten everyone’s priorities…you literally mentioned a woman getting eaten by dogs like you were talking about the weather…lets hope Ramsay flays Fat Walda this week to get the bad taste of Sansa’s rape out of your mouths…I honestly think if Ramsay had straight up cut Sansa’s throat you’d have had less of a problem with it…even though that is truly not in the book
A lot of people miss the point.
The fact that worse things happened to Jeyne in the books is irrelevant.
The fact that other characters have suffered sexual abuse, such as the women in Craster’s Keep and Thoen is irrelevant.
The fact that bad things happen in real life to strong people is also irrelevant.
This is art. While it is meant to reflect reality, it is still an artificial creation because it has a narrative structure. Each scene, each piece of dialogue, each plot point is meant to progress the story. When a television show or novel presents a lot of excess, repetitive information, unnecessary regressions, etc. it is a mark of poor writing and it frustrates the audience.
We see it in popular TV shows and novels all the time. Yes, it can be argued that even GRRM has made a few mistakes in this regard.
What happens to Jeyne, Theon, and the women in Craster’s Keep make sense in their story arcs. They go from Point A to Point B. For Sansa, it is repetitive. She has already had this story in King’s Landing. Years into the show it is frustrating to see it again. And that this annoying repetition is set in motion by an incredibly forced, and difficult to believe, Litttlefinger plot, and that they employ something as serious as rape all comes together to spark an incredibly strong, negative reaction amongst many in the audience. You must also consider the botched sex scene between Jaime and Cersei in Season 4 as a contributing factor to the reaction.
You may not agree, and that’s fine. But try to understand the nuances of the opposing view. Personally, I’m not someone who believes rape should never be used in story telling, but in this particular version of this story, it feels unnecessary and inappropriate. And do that lack of necessity from a story telling perspective (Sansa already has a STRONG motive to seek revenge on the Boltons) it feels like nothing more than shock for shock’s sake.