In our dialogue for the season finale, Petra and I discuss Daemon’s disturbing behavior towards Rhaenyra, Aemond’s apparent shock that a dragon is not a slave and the tendency for fans to rage when scenes don’t go the way they expect.
Petra: Well, here we are. At the end.
Luka: Also a beginning. I’m sure we’ll have future dialogues later on dedicated to looking back on the whole season and looking forward to season two, don’t you think? I don’t want these to be over!
Petra: I’ve really enjoyed bringing the Glass Candle Dialogues back. And, yes, I have plenty of thoughts about the season as a whole and, while my predictions usually turn out wrong, there are a lot of things I’m hoping for next season.
Luka: I’m sure we’ll do a bit of that today too, that’s inevitable. But it was an eventful episode by itself, too! What was your general first impression? And did it change on subsequent viewings?
Petra: I can’t talk about this episode without addressing the leak that occurred two or three days prior to its airing. I didn’t watch the leaked episode, but I did let myself get spoiled just enough to know that Lucerys’ death was accidental. I had a few days to mull over this change without knowing how it occurs, so when I finally watched the episode it was a relief that the scene worked. There were so many ways the writers could have absolved Aemond of responsibility to keep him likable that would have felt cheap and even corny. The way the sequence, in its final form, was – I’m so sorry – executed, was really interesting.
Luka: Ba-dum TSH! And I agree. Judging by the reaction some people had when the episode leaked, I could’ve sworn that Aemond just did an oopsie and had an accidental mid-air collision with Luke. Instead of demanding he take out his own eye and stalking him on a dragon at least five times the size of Luke’s as he cackles maniacally and tells him he owes him a debt in High Valyrian. “Accidental” is not the word I’d use. The dragons do get out of control, which I find fascinating, but Aemond’s not free of blame here, is he? The dragons disobeying their riders was another strangely controversial thing I absolutely loved. We saw Drogon get more than a little bit rowdy with Dany, and hey, as the Mother of Dragons herself said, “a dragon is not a slave.” The fact that they have a mental bond doesn’t mean they riders mind-control the dragons. I don’t know where anyone got that idea.
Petra: We already knew from Game of Thrones that Targaryens started keeping their dragons in the dragonpit because they were unwieldy, but we’ve never encountered a dragon disobeying their rider during a battle before. Some people felt that Vhagar was feeding off of Aemond’s hatred and carried out Aemond’s true desire by killing Lucerys. That’s not how I read the scene. I took it more as a consequence of Aemond’s hubris, that he thought he could chase this kid around, threatening violence and nothing meaningful would come of it. He’s a bully, trapped in a sort of arrested development by thinking that actions don’t have consequences. As Rhaenys said in the premiere, the young men of Westeros have never known true war. I think, from Aemond’s perspective, this was a continuation of that Pink Dread prank: cruel but meaningless. Idiot.
Luka: I see it the same way. Aemond’s obsessed and Luke’s young, and both are inexperienced, and surely that’s part of why Arrax and Vhagar disobey them. But there’s more to it than that. This is a much more honest take on dragons than many stories in that world would have us believe… which many readers took at face value, apparently. Dragons are cool, yes. They’re awesome, in both senses of the word. But that’s not all there is to them. I’d have thought the end of Game of Thrones would have taught all of us that, but even for those who discount that ending, A Dance with Dragons offers a very similar perspective to their danger. I’ll put it like this: when George talks about dragons being nuclear weapons, what is he talking about? They’re sentient weapons of mass destruction who, whether because of their nature or magic or both, are intrinsically connected to violence, to fire and blood. A Targaryen giving in to their basest desires is them being a dragon. That’s no coincidence. A dragon wants to burn shit up and probably be left alone the rest of the time. So yes, Arrax feels threatened and spits fire at Vhagar, and the oldest dragon of the world isn’t gonna take that. It seems perfectly reasonable to me, not only in the sense of “canon” (the least interesting aspect of the conversation to me, to be perfectly honest) and character motivations but more broadly as a cautionary tale (that the characters will ignore) of what dragons really are, and as a perfect parable of how the whole Dance will go. I think it’s delightful that the dragons themselves draw first blood in the Dance of Dragons. Just perfect.
Petra: I’m curious how dragon disobedience might factor into later conflicts, if at all. Obviously, every dragon battle can’t result in an accidental fatality, but it would be odd if the dragons mellow out after this.
Luka: Oh, I don’t think they will. Other dragonriders, Daemon in particular, seem to have a much firmer grasp on their dragons… though in his case I believe it helps that his disposition is much more dragon-like than that of many others. Speaking of Daemon, he’s in another controversial scene this episode. The stans are aghast! Personally, it shocked me too, seeing Daemon treat Rhaenyra like that… but instead of being outraged and looking at it as character assassination I reconsidered how I viewed the character, and wondered why his actions shocked me at all. Looking back on the season, I don’t believe I should have been shocked, you know? Many were apparently bamboozled by Daemon “turning a new leaf” after the big time jump—that wasn’t me, to be clear; I enjoy him greatly partly because of how dark he can go. But this still shocked me… in a good way!
Luka: That said, I don’t think that moment could’ve worked for me in almost any other situation. It was a perfect combination of elements that did it: for most of the episode up to that point, Rhaenyra and Daemon have been at odds with each other about the prospect of war. Daemon believed he’d married a dragon like him, but he’s starting to see his brother in her. He publicly accuses her of this: “That’s your father talking.” Then comes the straw that broke the camel’s back: Rhaenyra says she’s trying to avoid plunging the realm into war because she believes she has a near-divine prophetic duty to keep it united at any cost, a prophecy passed down to her by her father. I truly believe this is the perfect mix of things that would lead Daemon to strangle Rhaenyra in anger: he’s impatient; he’s seeing a side of Rhaenyra that reminds him of the weakness he so disliked in Viserys, as much as he loved the man; and the Song of Ice and Fire makes him angry not only because it’s dream nonsense and not the real tangible things they’re discussing (“Dreams didn’t make us kings; dragons did”) but also because it means Viserys never considered him a true heir, as Daemon was never told of this. Impatience, anger, jealousy, all at once. So the scene worked for me, in this instance, but I understand if it didn’t for a lot of people (as long as it isn’t because “my sweet family man Daemon would never! ”), and I don’t think that would have made a lot of sense to me in any other circumstance, you know? The only thing that irked me is that this had never come up before. One would think this would have been addressed in six years of marriage. It stinked to me a bit of “these characters don’t exist when they’re not on-screen,” which is not thoughtful writing. Maybe Rhaenyra only feels free to pass on the information now that Viserys is dead? I accept that’s an entirely valid read, but my first impression was that it didn’t feel right.
Petra: To be honest, the fact that the prophecy is kept a secret at all doesn’t make sense. If the fate of the world is at stake why on earth wouldn’t you share that information with everybody? Especially if you’re using it to justify your family’s legitimacy as rulers. Feels like the Westerosi equivalent of the divine right of kings: “if we’re not in charge, the Others will take you.”
Luka: My only explanation for that is that they’re trying to make peace with the Faith and have historically gone to war with them over Targaryen customs. So maybe they don’t want to introduce this obviously heretical prophecy into a society who mostly believe in the Seven. I do wonder if they’ve told some Lords of Winterfell, though. One would think they would. That could be why Torrhen knelt to Aegon without a fight. Maybe we’ll know one day.
Petra: Maybe. Anyway, Daemon choking Rhaenyra was another thing I learned about through the leaks, and a lot of people were unhappy that it ruined Daemon’s character growth. I didn’t feel that way, even before I learned the context of the scene. Daemon enjoyed mutilating civilians as a Commander of the City Watch, he committed a war crime at the Stepstones and he crushed his first wife’s head in with a stone. The notion that Rhaenyra would be immune to his violence plays into the dangerous notion that she’s different, that she brings out his best self, that he’d never behave that way towards her. To be clear, Rhaenyra never says anything even remotely resembling “I can fix him.” I’m just saying, violent behavior tends to spill over into all aspects of a person’s life. And I do understand that the scene was upsetting. As much as I’m enjoying Aemond as an amoral disaster, if he choked Helaena, that would cross a line for me. I get why Daemon fans were disturbed by this episode, but acting as if Daemon didn’t already have a long history of toxic, violent behavior is just … that’s not the character that’s been written.
Luka: I do want to say, some Daemon fans were disturbed. Or rather, angered. I’m a Daemon fan, and I was disturbed, which I believe was the point of the scene, but I ended up appreciating it as a choice from the writers. When you said that “violent behavior tends to spill out into all aspects of a person’s life,” that reminded me of a Twitter thread by Julia Gfrörer I read a few days ago about the fan response: “There’s no such thing as a violent man who’s only violent towards the people who deserve it. George has been repeating this theme in his work for decades, almost to the point of tedium, and yet some of you still refuse to take it onboard. Perhaps the most seductive myth in the world is that of righteous violence. If you thought House of the Dragon of all shows was going to perpetuate it you are stupid beyond words. I really don’t know what else to say at this point. Some of you didn’t quite catch on with Daenerys. That’s okay, it happens. But to fall for it a second time! Pal, get back in the kiddie pool!” A bit harsh, maybe, but true.
Petra: Absolutely. Perfectly worded. I love morally gray characters and, of course, it’s always fun to root for the villain. For the most part I disagree with people who moralize or condemn fans for enjoying anyone but the nicest, most upstanding characters. But then we get the discourse surrounding Daemon and some of the talking points sound too reminiscent of, well, real world situations.
Luka: Right. What you just said brings me to the question of how much responsibility a show—any work of art—has to balance its spectacle with the violent reality that spectacle represents. It’s complicated. Sometimes a show isn’t on the nose enough for most of the audience and viewers are surprised when the character they’ve been enjoying does truly awful things. The responsibility is shared, I believe, between the viewers and the show creators. This show wants to give us cool dragon action (and regular human action) while also commenting on what this violence actually is and where it leads. There’s some inherent tension in that, a tension the show seems interested in, but the truth is some watchers just want the cool action and they feel called out when a story they enjoy viscerally starts examinining the hard truths behind the characters perpetrating that violence. This happened with Dany. But, as I said, the writers also have a responsibility to balance the spectacle with these uncomfortable realities. With Dany, it seems like it worked for very few people, despite the seasons in Meereen showing how she could easily go down a similar dark road in Westeros. I count myself amongst those for whom her “turn” at the end worked, as terrible as it felt, but even I admit the last season needed a few more episodes to bridge that gap, emotionally. With Daemon, however, as cool as he is, I fail to see how one could miss he’s a violent, impatient, chaotic man. He isn’t built in the essentially heroic mold of Daenerys. In this case, I feel safe in saying it’s those viewers’ lack of media literacy that failed their comprehension of the character, and not the other way around. That may seem rude, but… it’s the Rogue Prince! This wasn’t exactly a twist.
Petra: Daenerys had a moral agenda, at least. Personally, she lost me when she killed Mirri Maaz Duur, but I understand why the majority of readers and viewers continued to root for her as she, fundamentally, did her best to make the world a better place, even if her practices had problematic colonialist undertones. Daemon just wants to see the world burn. Literally.
Luka: I’m sure we’ll be litigating this fascinating character for years to come. I’m open to changing my mind about him, too. I’ll leave it at this: I’m quite curious about how the writers will adapt certain events in his future. But that’s for another day. Another year too, sadly. We touched on the big controversies of the finale, but I believe that’s kind of a shame, in a way, because I must say I greatly enjoyed this episode, and what it did with the characters of Rhaenyra, Rhaenys, Corlys and Luke and many others. I was even excited for the three Queensguards, as tertiary as they may be! It was a great character-focused episode, for a finale. Do you have thoughts on any of their journeys this episode?
Petra: I felt Corlys and Rhaenys’ conversation was overdue. I understand why we didn’t get more time with them in this massive, sprawling story, but it was nice for them to finally take stock of everything that’s happened to their family, and it was genuinely poignant when Corlys, of all people, decided to retire from politics only for Rhaenys to tell him that was no longer an option. As for Luke, I knew he was a dead kid walking, and I was impressed by how much personality he was given in his final episode. He’s got a lot of responsibility on his shoulders, and he’s trying to do his best. His death hit me harder than I was expecting.
Luka: Me too. They had work to do this episode, didn’t they? He’d been a cute little kid, and seeing a kid die horribly would already be sad, of course, but we needed to have a bit more of a connection to him. We knew he felt uneasy about inheriting Driftmark since his conversation with his grandfather, Corlys, in “Driftmark,” but we needed this opening scene with his mother. I knew why it existed, and it still worked for me. So much weight to put on a fourteen year old, especially one who’d rather not have any of those responsibilities. Jace is an older teen and more intense, taking his responsibilities more seriously than any heir we’ve ever seen, but you can tell Luke would be much happier if he was just allowed to be a child. Poor kid. Rest in peace, my namesake! Or, in pieces? Sorry.
Petra: Usually when a character exists only to die, they’re written so blandly in an effort to make them likable that I don’t care about them. This is especially true of children who, in general, are written to act much younger than they are. This wasn’t the case with Luke. I truly got the sense that, had he lived, he would have had an interesting character arc ahead of him. Well done, Elliot Grihault.
Luka: Great work, Elliot Grihault, and may your character’s death inspire the surviving characters to do terrible deeds and destroy the House of the Dragon from within! That final shot of a vengeful Rhaenyra will stay with me for a while. I can’t wait to see where they’ll take her next season. Emma D’Arcy has done an astounding job with the character, especially these last few episodes. Everyone was going on about how Paddy Considine deserves an Emmy, and rightly so, especially since this was his only season, but D’Arcy deserves to be on that conversation too. They did great, to the very last moment of the season.
Lot’s of people where snowed by the charisma and appealing masculine swagger given the Daemon character through Matt Smith’s wonderful characterization. They bought into the illusion that the Dae/Rhae pairing was a standard root-for-them love story where the guy was basically good with a few bad boy tendencies on the side. No biggie.
But that means there was a refusal to see the darkness in both of them that’s always been there. Daemon murdered his first wife because she was inconvenient. The two of them were behind the murder of an innocent man because Laenor was also inconvenient to their union. And if you watch closely, there was a nod of agreement between the two of them right before Daemon beheaded Vaemond for speaking the truth because it endangered Rhaenyra’s rise to the throne.
These two are NOT sweet young lovebirds.
I wonder if social media/Internet forums will ever stop feeding the fire of narcissists and people who lack emotional development who regularly overreact & create outrage threads that get 10,000 meowmeowbeenz while being devoid of any critical thought or accurate analysis of the intent of the people who did/made the thing they’re freaking out about.
I’m gonna miss you all! I finally started getting the GOT feeling and now we are going to have to wait another 2 years.
This is entirely based on the show, I haven’t read F&B, so I can’t really comment on the differences between the two.
I wasn’t surprised by Daemon’s behaviour at all. But I can’t stand him, I’ve been saying this all along. Matt Smith is great in the role, but he didn’t charm me in the least. He is no Jaime Lannister, and to be fair, I didn’t like Jaime until he was stripped of his power. Daemon is darker and more prone to violence, he is capable of kindness of course, but we didn’t see much of it. He didn’t teach his daughter to speak Valyrian because she doesn’t have a dragon, she is lesser to him. F*ck him.
He loves his brother, but he is frustrated with his lack of action. He sees himself in Rhaenyra, but when she showed restraint he thought ‘oh shit, I married Viserys’. He doesn’t want to be King, he wants to be the person that the King/Queen relies on. If he doesn’t get his way, he becomes violent, he is a child. Viserys offered to help him win the war, he beat the messenger to a pulp. Viserys confided in Rhaenyra and he choked her. He really isn’t that complicated, he’s pathetic.
I do question the edit though, they cut the scene where he comforted his daughters, and posted it to the official Twitter account. Very strange. They cut him going to Rhaenyra after her miscarriage, I don’t know, I feel like the show runners don’t want us to like him and it annoys them that he is so popular. It annoys me based on what we have seen on the show, it is baffling. He isn’t very interesting to me
Jenny,
Yeah I don’t like Daemon either right now lol. I think the scenes were cut because they were out of character for him, or because the straggling scene in ep 10 would come as too much of a shock.
I also think the people who are shocked and outraged on various platforms conflate Matt Smith the actor with the character he is playing. And also conflate Daemon with his other well-known characters: Dr Who and Prince Philip from The Crown (coincidentally another King Consort). But they’re all obviously different characters. Very odd online behavior.
GeekFurious,
Oh, great Community reference!
Flayed Potatoes,
I know of a few instances in the book where he might not have committed the crime, but the show runners decided to pin it on him (his wife for example). But they also absolved him of murdering Leanor. Maybe people chose to believe that he didn’t kill his wife etc, the danger of an unreliable narrator I guess. People seem to think that Rhaenyra is his true love and he was ‘cured’ by her. I don’t think that is realistic though. The book claims that he was unfaithful, so where is this perfect husband and father idea coming from? To me, he reads like a villain who can occasionally show decency. A friend of mine says that he grew on her, so I am open to his development in later Seasons. At the moment, I think he is an underwritten character played by a very charismatic actor
I don’t know how in the world one can be a Daemon fan and somehow get upset when he chokes Rhaenyra. That’s his character.
It’s a bit contradictory to be against spousal abuse and be a Daemon fan at the same time, lol. He’s an abuser. It’s what he does.
Killing his first wife = meh
choking his second wife = crossing a line
Jenny,
I agree. And he is even worse in the book imo. I genuinely think they’re conflating the actor and character and self-inserting. Or they’re not aware what kind of show this is.
Mr Derp,
I know right? Imo they saw Rhea Royce and Laena as obstacles in between Daemon and Rhaenyra, so they turned a blind eye when he killed one and ignored the other isolated her from her family (a common abuser tactic) because it suited the fantasy they made up in their head. But the pattern of abuse was there and it was only a matter of time before it manifested itself against Rhaenyra.
As far as the Daemon discussion goes, I love the character. He is just great fun to watch (similar to Aemond, who is even more magnetic).
I was surprised by the choking, but in retrospect it makes sense to me (and it didn’t seem to surprise Rhaenyra too much either). Definitely doesn’t change any of my enjoyment watching the character in the future.
And when it comes to dragons, I love that their personalities go as far as behaving a specific way even when they are being ridden and commanded. I am very curious to see how say Rhaenys can/cannot manage Meleys in a stressful situation, or even Rhaenyra Syrax. Whether age and shared experience are enough to smooth the rough edges or if individual dragons are simply more prone to uncontrollable fits of rage regardless of the experience of the rider and the lenght of their relationship.
Kind of bummed HotD is over for a while just as it’s realy starting, but oh well.
On top of that, his (arguably) two most humanizing moments (helping Viserys up to the Throne and gently informing Rhaenyra of Luke’s death) were apparently Matt Smith’s ideas, not the writers’.
One of the things I find interesting about the show is how it is asking us to examine in ourselves what we find tolerable/intolerable when it comes to the people/side that we end up aligning with.
So far, Team Black is more murderous and violent but generally very transparent. If you’re paying attention, you know what you’re getting with them.
Team Green acts righteous and superior, sneaks around, plots, and has Otto’s duplicitousness. Apparently I can more easily watch and shrug off murder and violence on TV and in movies than I can tolerate lying, undermining, and the belittling/gaslighty kinds of things that come out of Otto’s mouth.
I know exactly why I like Daemon: he’s channeling my Otto Rage who I can barely tolerate. It’s the same energy I felt while watching Bad Sisters (great show) b/c I found JP so triggering. Something to unpack with my therapist, I suppose…
Jenny,
I thought I was the only person who hated or even noticed Daemon’s neglect of his daughters. He seems to favor the children of the woman he’s always been obsessed with over his kids with Laena.
Both he and Viserys seemed to care only about the children of the women they loved. Loving some of your children more than others because you like their mother more is foul.
Malcolm Ferguson,
No exactly – both scenes (helping Viserys to the throne and telling gently Rhaenyra) were written. But Smith had two brilliant ideas – more exactly, a reflex and an idea. He picked her the crown when Paddy lost it (and the director kept the scene). And he suggested that Daemon could tell Rhaenyra while they were walking toward the fire, instead of having a more classic scene where he tells her while they’re looking at each other. Hence this stunning long movement towards the fire, then Rhaenyra looking in it and turning toward the camera.
From what Condal said, they thought he would be popular – what surprises them is that he’s popular as a good guy, which… is surprising, indeed (even book Daemon isn’t exactly what you can call a nice person).
Malcolm Ferguson,
They also cut him hugging his daughters after their mother’s death. Baela and Rhaena have had what – five lines between them since they’ve been played by adult actresses? Talk about underused. They are little more than furniture in bad wigs.
Flayed Potatoes,
I totally agree with your theory. People shipped Dae/Rhae so hard that Rhea and Leana and the guy who took Laenor’s place, had to go to make that happen.
Not to mention the fact that Vaemond died for telling the truth. Notice that there was a little head nodding agreement between Rhaenyra and Daemond when Vaemond lost his temper and mouthed off, that NOW was the time to execute him for “treason.” They were counting on this idiot saying something that would justify them killing him.
Not nice people.
Malcolm Ferguson,
They also cut him hugging his daughters after their mother’s death. Baela and Rhaena have had what – five lines between them since they’ve been played by adult actresses? Talk about underused. They are little more than furniture in bad wigs.
Jenny,
I don’t think they want us to dislike him so much as I think they may be setting up future story lines. People are always patting Daemon on the back for loving his family but they seem to be showing a strange detachment from his kids with Laena. And this is made all the more evident by their grandmother’s affection for them. She after all, seems to be the only person who cares about Baela and Rhaena. Their grandfather seemed to only care about carrying on the family name which girls can’t do.
Did anyone else think that Rhaenyra in the moment she turned form the fire, looked like Kathy Bates in Misery?
Jenstar Runner,
Yep, the show is a real Rorschach test for audience members.
I think that it’s going to be a rough next season/s for people that get shocked by events that have happened so far, and the actions of their favourite characters. 😄
Jenstar Runner,
I fully support Daemon in his hatred for Otto! I hope he dies miserably, this whole thing is his fault and walks around like the cat who got the cream. I really do hate him. I totally get people who think Daemon is kind of shitty and enjoy that. There is something fun about a character who says exactly what he is thinking. I’ve liked a few shitty characters myself, but some people read F&B and got a much better vision of him than the show provides. I can understand that with ASOIAF characters, that is a fixed narrative, and it’s obvious when the show runners are changing characters to suit the show. Sometimes they are good changes, sometimes they aren’t. But there is nothing like that in F&B, they can literally do anything with the characters imo
I hope to see Queen Rhaenyra rule as she sits on the Dragonstone Throne in the first cold open scene of Season 2
I hope to see Queen Rhaenyra get to the Kings Landing Throne Room and sit on the Iron Throne in the final scene of Season 2
Missy Bee,
But leanor did not get murdered. As we clearly saw. Not sure what you’re talking about on that note.
Edit: ignore, just me not reading properly and being an idiot lol.
–
Petra: Well, here we are. At the end.
Luka: Also a beginning. I’m sure we’ll have future dialogues later on dedicated to looking back on the whole season and looking forward to season two, don’t you think? I don’t want these to be over!
Petra: I’ve really enjoyed bringing the Glass Candle Dialogues back….
Ah! Music to my ears. I’ve looked forward to reading your GCDs. I don’t want them to be over either.
Also… I hope you’ll have future Glass Candle Dialogues dedicated to The Jon Snow Show once it goes into production (if it hasn’t already).
My wife during the brothel scene was like “yes!! I knew they were going to be a love interest”
I was thinking.. she is 14!
How is Daemon a good guy?
Imagine that scene on the TV show Friends but it’s Chandler with his 14 year old niece.
Flayed Potatoes,
Careful… “King Consort” is a title that is quite dangerous for ruling Queens, and is therefore rarely granted. And once a man is called King, he wants to be a real king. Mary, Queen of Scots found that out the hard way. Prince Philip was created a duke, but never king consort.
Matthew,
The point still stands that in both The Crown and HotD, he plays the role of a husband to a queen. And people probably conflate these characters and think he is playing a supportive husband in HotD, when actually he’s after power (the Mary Queen of Scots comparison is so good).
Ten Bears,
Jon’s story doesn’t need resurrection, which is why I’m skeptical about the spin-off. It sounds like a money grab. Jon’s ending was perfect!
I hope to see King Beyond the Wall Jon Snow rule as he sits in the Lord Commander’s chair in the first cold open scene of Season 1 of “Snow.”
I hope to see King Aegon Targaryen
f/k/a Jon Snow get to the King’s Landing Throne Room and sit on the Iron Throne in the final scene of Season 2 of “Snow.”
… and …
I hope to see Princess Arya get to the Great Hall of Winterfell for her coronation as Queen in the North in the final scene of Season 1. [Sorry, SansaStans.]
I hope to see Sandor Clegane resurrected by a red priestess midway through Season 1. [/strong]
No one,
I think they weren’t expecting people to overlook major faults like murder, simply because people were blown away by Matt Smith’s charisma or because they were desperate to ship Daemon and Rhaenyra.
Instead, some folks not only overlooked cold-blooded murder of innocent people, some refused to believe he’d actually done such things. I’m talking Rhea and the poor servant who was killed to take Laenor’s place.
Ten Bears,
Jon Snow’s story doesn’t need resurrection, which is why I’m skeptical about that particular spin-off. It sounds like a cash grab. Jon’s ending was perfect!
Young Dragon,
I don’t get the Jon Snow spin-off either.
What is he going to be doing up North that requires us to want to watch it? The White Walkers are gone.
I never was a
Mr Derp,
I never was a Jon Snow fan anyway. Not of the character or his portrayal by Kit Harrington.
Missy Bee,
Jon Snow was probably my favorite character, but I just don’t get what this spin-off is supposed to be about or why we need it.
Too many shows these days seem more like “content” rather than an actual story with a beginning, middle, and end.
There needs to be a compelling reason to bring Jon Snow back…but it also can’t have anything to do with White Walkers otherwise it would kind of render his entire time in GoT pointless.
His entire time in GoT was already rendered pointless.
Mr Derp,
I liked Jon’s ending, he got the best and most fitting ending on the show imo. I don’t know why they had to pretend that the Night’s Watch still existed, just banish him from the 7 Kingdoms and he’d go North anyway. That’s a small complaint.
Since I never liked the Jon and Dany pairing, Snow should be a sweeping romance. I mean, there isn’t much else going on, unless he uncovers some ancient magical being. The actual Night’s King or something.
My favorite House of the Dragon episode is…
King of the Narrow Sea – Great opening scene in Storms End. Young Princess Rhaenyra is playing the game the way she wants to. Young Rhaenyra reminds me of Ayra Stark. This episode is all about Daemon and Rhaenyra causing chaos.
Prince Daemon and King Viserys Throne room scene is very similar to Lord Peter Baelish’s trial and execution in Winterfell’s Great Hall. Prince Daemon is accused of a crime, The same Catspaw dagger is put to his throat and the scene ends with Prince Daemon lying on the floor.
Rhaenyra makes a deal with her Father at the end. 10/10
Driftmark is a 10/10 episode too!
Knowledge is Power,
I think it’s a tie between King of the Narrow Sea and The Lord of the Tides for me. I love both Episodes. Both were great character Episodes, something that was sorely missing in Season 1. I think Viserys was the best written character, he didn’t have a grand arc, but his struggle moved me more than anything else in the show. I have grown to love Rhaenyra as well, not a great politician in her younger years and rather selfish, but ultimately a fairly decent person in a bad situation (partly of her own making of course) she feels the weight of that prophecy and she loves her family. I’m sure she will crash and burn lol so i’ll enjoy it while it lasts
Hey guys, will there be a GCD for the future of the series? I mean something like: what to expect in Season 2?
I’m already starving for HOTD news
Jenny,
I like Queen Rhaenyra and I can’t wait to see how her character changes after all that has happened to her Father, her Daughter and her Son. I hope House of the Dragon has more Old Valyrian Red Priestess blood magic in Season 2. King Viserys mentions it but no actual magic. Or at least some preachers on the streets of Kings Landing telling the people about all King Aegon’s Bastards.
I know it’s a not gonna happen until the 4th season, but
Ten Bears,
I don’t see how. Without Jon, most of the characters in GOT would have never known that the White Walkers even existed until they swept through the country. Jon, after all, was the one who organized the last stand at Winterfell and he was the one who pushed the idea to travel to Dragongstone and bring back enough dragon glass to equip their entire army. Besides Arya, Jon had the biggest role in defeating the White Walkers. That’s not even mentioning that it was Jon who killed the final Big Bad Daenerys and put an end to her reign of terror. He had a very large role to play in the series and none of it was rendered pointless.
Young Dragon,
I really liked Jon’s ending but I do feel that his character fizzled out in S8. He became a bystander in his own story and that was quite frustrating for me. I liked his ‘are we the baddies?’ moment in The Bells, but little else. I like to think that he was AA, though it was never mentioned after S7 (another frustration).
I never thought of Dany as the big bad, I suppose she was in the end. I do wish that we had spent longer with her in her final form. Her rein of terror lasted for a day. Pretty underwhelming really
This!! It’s just ridiculous when I read comments that Jon’s story ultimately didn’t mean anything… like his Targaryen heritage is the only thing that matters (and to be honest, his Targaryen heritage was something that would only lead to another civil war and nothing else, literally putting GoT back at square 1…. is that really what people wanted???) So ridiculous…
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I’m not sure about that, I think the show runners of HOTD are retroactively making Jon’s heritage important by saying that TPTWP is a Targaryen. I doubt that we will ever get a definitive answer, and prophecies can be misunderstood, but I’m sure that it will play a bigger role in the books. It’s Jon or Dany, or the both of them together. Jon did come back from the dead after all, he had a job to do, even if it was underwhelming in the show. I understand why some people don’t like HOTD messing with this prophecy, I don’t love it myself, but it gives Jon’s S8 storyline a bit of a boost imo
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
calm down.
For someone who’s constantly complaining about people being mean online, you’re kind of a hypocrite.
Jenny,
This is not a spoiler, just my opinion, I’ll hide it anyways
Daenerys was right to be suspicious and doubt Bran when Jon told Daenerys that he is Aegon Targaryen. Jon figuring out that he is not Aegon Targaryen and who the real PTWP Aegon Targaryen is …. is what I think the 6 episode mini series “SNOW” will be about. I think Jon Snow will be “The Last of the Starks” at the end of SNOW.
A main theme of House of the Dragon is about Aegon the Conqueror’s A Song of Ice and Fire dream and King Visearys heir dream… Bran had very real dreams starting in S1… The final episodes of Game of Thrones could be Bran’s 3ER’s POV and Bran’s bad dream. GOT S8 E6 has quite a few dream like scenes. I think SNOW will be A Dream of Spring
Jenny,
The Bells is a top 5 episode for me, so I didn’t find it to be underwhelming at all. Her reign of terror may have been short, but the amount of pain, suffering, and death Daenerys caused in one episode was more than enough for me. I had my fill.
As for Jon, I don’t see him as a bystander in season 8 or any other season. I loved his role in season 8 and thought he had some incredible scenes, particularly with Daenerys and Tyrion. I don’t know if he had less to do in season 8 than in previous seasons, I haven’t been keeping score and that’s not really how I look at things. Being disappointed that Jon didn’t play as big of a role as one might have liked is one thing, but making the absurd claim that his story was rendered meaningless is quite another.
Knowledge is Power,
No offence intended, but that would make me so mad! I don’t think they can do anything that essentially rewrites the original series. Jon could touch Drogon and ride Rhaegal, his heritage is 100% confirmed. I have no idea what Snow could be about, but a further exploration into the 3ER could be interesting since they kind of glossed over that. I’m not sure that GRRM even knows
Young Dragon,
I don’t think that her actions in The Bells were underwhelming, if anything, they were over the top. But that is due to the development of her character in S8, which I felt was lacking. I don’t really have a problem with Dany going down that route but I have never really grasped the reason for it. They tried to hammer her with tragedy after tragedy to justify it, but it didn’t really work for me. I think that the aftermath was a bit underwhelming as well. I so wish that we had got 8 Episodes to let this stuff breath a little bit. I would have loved to see her rebuild KL and become this oddly benevolent tyrant. It kind of ended before it started.
Jon’s story certainly wasn’t pointless, I agree with you there. But he didn’t do much until The Bells, he was just going with the flow, parroting the same lines over and over. People were making decisions for him, Tyrion/Varys plotting, Sansa blabbing, Dany becoming paranoid over something that he didn’t want. He showed agency in The Iron Throne, and I missed that in previous episodes. I kind of hated seeing him on that dragon in The Long Night, even putting him on the ground would have made things better. He was sat doing nothing for half the episode, and when he did get on the ground he was useless. He just felt so impotent in S8, perhaps that was the point, but it was disappointing for me. The tragedy of his character would have worked better if he had been more active in the earlier episodes, give him a couple of hero moments and then drop him down to earth with a thud in KL
I don’t know about the rest of you, but my favorite part of Jon in season 8 was when he submissively said “muh qween” for the hundredth time. That was awesome.
Or maybe it was Jon’s long-awaited and teased-to-death parentage reveal fizzling into nothing more than a plot device for Dany to go bonkers?
Can’t wait to see what the Jon Snow spin-off will be about.
Mr Derp,
Pretty much lol.
They really should have made a bigger deal about Jon riding Rhaegal, alarm bells weren’t ringing for anybody? I don’t expect the characters to know a lot about dragon lore (Tyrion should know a fair amount) but him hopping on a dragon was massive. Another thing that HOTD has highlighted. GOT glossed over that with Dany too, she didn’t tame or train her dragons. I can kind of let that go given the circumstances of their birth, but Jon? No way. So many opportunities for his character in S8 and they just said nah, no more character development for him until the 11th hour
“This is the darkest timeline.”
Jenny,
lol, I’m just trying to throw a little sarcasm into the mix here. Some people get way too emotional and defensive over whether or not people liked season 8…3 1/2 years after the fact. It’s weird. Dany turning into Hitler obviously didn’t work for me, but I’m happier than a pig in shit for those who thought it worked. I just wish they’d chill with the Minister of Propaganda attacks around here when it comes to anyone with a different opinion. It takes any/all joy out of the discussion.
Well, I’m far from the first person to observe that “intelligent” characters such as Tyrion and Varys turned into complete morons over the last season or two in order to check off the necessary boxes. To me, this is just another example. Nobody stopped to question how/why Jon was able to ride a dragon? I guess they kind of forgot 😉
I will concede that the lore of this is currently a bit muddled. Allegedly, only Targaryens can ride dragons, but we’ve also seen the Velaryons ride dragons in HotD, so I have no idea. Maybe it’s only the Velaryons with Targaryen blood who can ride dragons? I honestly have no idea anymore. I assume season 8 defenders will try to say that the show never specifically mentioned whether only Targaryens can ride dragons or not, despite the audience knowing better.
My favorite parts too! I’ll be forever grateful. /S
Mr Derp,
All of the dragon riders are part targ in hotd. They may not all have the last name but they are all at least 25 percent targ. Who are referring to that’s not a targ?
Mr Derp,
To perhaps muddle it even more, I think it’s those with Valyrian blood who have the potential to be dragonriders as
I’d agree that a known Northern bastard son riding a dragon in full view of everyone would be at least noteworthy and cause to go “?!”…
Mr Derp,
I think most families from Valyria could ride dragons. The Targaryens were a lesser House, but one of them dreamt of the Doom and they legged it. That might be when the Targs started the incest thing, they probably married into other Houses before that. I’m not sure where the Song of Ice and Fire prophecy came into it, apparently before the Conquest, and that might be why Aegon united the Kingdoms. GOT was never particularly interested in dragon lore, I don’t think GRRM has delved into Dany’s training yet, so I can’t blame them too much. Fire and Blood came out in 2018 so they didn’t have that reference either. But Jon riding Rhaegal is still something to remark on and nobody seemed to care. Maybe they just thought, wow, Dany must really love Jon if her dragons trust him too
Jenny,
For me, the stage was already set for Daenerys to burn down King’s Landing before season 8. With the masters of Mereen, she showed that violence didn’t necessarily end with her victory. She crucified 163 masters as punishment. Her burning down King’s Landing was also a form of punishment. And in season 6, she showed she was willing to go to the extreme of burning down entire cities, and would have done so to Yunkai and Astapor if Tyrion didn’t talk her down. In season 8, her suffering tragedies was only half of it. She was also losing advisors. Jorah and Missandei were killed, Varys and Sansa betrayed her, Jon rejected her, Grey Worm was as blood thirsty as she was, and Tyrion had lost all her confidence. Without their council, there was no one to talk her down from burning King’s Landing, like Tyrion once did.
I’m not sure what you mean by “benevolent tyrant.” Even if such a thing could exist, I think that ship had sailed when she massacred hundreds of thousands of civilians. Two extra episodes could have been good, but it could also have felt like the show was drawing it out. I’m not sure if 8 episodes would have worked, but 6 worked fine for me. I really enjoyed the pacing of the season.
Jon clashed with Sansa and the other northerners over Daenerys and led the war council. He chose to reveal his parentage to Danerys. He took on the Night King on dragon back and knocked him off his dragon, which was integral to his defeat. He was far more useful in the air and played a bigger role that way. Throughout the season, we also saw him grappling with the truth of his parentage and how it was affecting him personally. He denied Dany’s request and told his family the truth. I felt Jon had a lot of things to do in the first four episodes.
Young Dragon,
I agree about Dany in earlier Seasons, alarm bells started ringing for me when she killed the Masters. I started to suspect that she would turn into her father, so I was looking for it. I knew that killing the Tarly’s would come back to haunt her. She punished people too harshly. I’m totally on board with that and I know that she will do something similar in the books (under circumstances not included in the show) I’m convinced that Meereen will be left in ashes. All of this heavily foreshadows her actions in KL, but the final stretch of her development didn’t work for me. Foreshadowing can only do and reveal so much about a person. They fell at the final hurdle imo. I’m in this sort of halfway house, between people who hated it and people who loved it and thought it made perfect sense. I’ve been thinking about it recently, and I actually like her character more now than I ever have. It’s a great arc on paper, but I do have serious problems with some of the writing along the way.
Going back to her actions in KL, I don’t think anyone could have talked her out of it, because she didn’t plan to do it. It was a snap decision made in a moment of pure rage. That rage came from the tragedy she had suffered – I include betrayal and rejection in that. She was alone on that dragon and instead of feeling joy, pride and accomplishment, she felt anger. She won, and it didn’t erase her pain. So on this point, I stand by my statement. They manufactured ways to hurt her, to justify this extreme action in KL because those people did NOTHING to her or anyone else. She was punishing people for an imaginary slight and that was the major difference between Essos and KL. Missandei didn’t have to die like that, her capture was too convenient, it felt so contrived (it also erased any sympathy I had for Cersei, she should have died alone) same goes for Rhaegal’s death. It goes back to S7, where she lost her armies in eye rolling circumstances. She lost faith in Tyrion because of his stupidity and it annoys me, they both deserved better. It was all style over substance, as if a few flashy set pieces could disguise the narrative short cuts.
I could imagine her showing kindness to everyone who followed her. In the aftermath, she almost reverted to a child like state. I don’t know if it was madness, did she go mad in that moment? No idea, i’m not sure if the writers know either. She could start working on plans to rebuild KL, help the remaining civilians and show generosity and concern for their welfare. People wouldn’t know what to do with that. It would have been interesting to see the other characters navigate her unstable behaviour. But they nipped it in the bud. It’s just something that I would have liked to see play out for a little longer, but it isn’t a deal breaker. I would have liked one more Episode at the end, and Episode 4 split into two.
I respect your feelings on Jon, but that wasn’t enough for a character of his stature. We barely saw him deal with the truth of his birth, there wasn’t time for him to grapple with it. He was more concerned about Daenerys, and even that felt half arsed. I hated that dragon battle, I genuinely couldn’t see what was happening, not because of the lighting, but the choreography of the scene was poor.
I still hold out hope that neither Danny nor Jon was the Prince who was promised. Either or both of them as the prince from the prophesy just seemed too obvious to me. Plus I always hated that Jon’s supposed existence was due to “noble” Rhaegar dumping his wife and kids for another woman. Hardly the lineage you want for savior or the world.
I kinda like the idea that all those Targaryens who plotted to save the world through their self-appointed “godly line” were mistaken all along and that the “savior” of the world was someone else.
Missy Bee,
I know what you mean, there is a fine line between boring/predictable and well developed throughout the story. Its also annoying when writers swerve in a different direction at the last minute to avoid being predictable.
If it isn’t Jon or Dany, i’m not sure who it could be, imagine if it’s FAegon!? I don’t think GRRM will give us a definitive answer either way. People might come out of the story with different interpretations, which is probably the best way to handle it. There will be evidence to support a few characters imo. I personally think it’s Jon and Dany together, but I think it’s Jon in the show, him killing Dany like that felt very Nissa Nissa. But that’s just my headcanon. If he had killed the NK, we would know for sure, but they thought that was too obvious and went a different route
I think that final scene in the The Green Council is a tease/foreshadow for SNOW. The King and Queen are talking about 2 different Aegon Targaryens.
Knowledge is Power,
I don’t think that would be subverting expectations. That would just be re-writing/disregarding everything we saw unfold in GoT as an excuse to create more content.
IMO, that’s the kind of thing that should not be done. If the reveals we saw in GoT are rendered untrue or a misdirection then the same thing could happen to HotD or SNOW. It just makes the entire thing a pointless exercise when you can just re-write everything after the fact.