Ever since the divisive Game of Thrones series finale, fans have been wondering how closely the ending reflected what author George R.R. Martin has in store for his A Song of Ice and Fire novels. Martin has remained tight lipped about what may or may not be the same, and a new interview with Fast Company – reported by Digital Spy – does nothing to clear the air. In fact, it may muddy the waters further.
Martin acknowledges that the show’s ending was “not completely faithful” to what he envisions for his books. “Otherwise, it would have to run another five seasons.” Given the enormous scope of the novels and that many characters and storylines had already been cut, this certainly doesn’t come as surprise.
He also elaborates on the difficulties of adaptation, saying, “It can be… traumatic. Because sometimes their creative vision and your creative vision don’t match, and you get the famous creative differences thing – that leads to a lot of conflict.” Martin continues, “You get totally extraneous things like the studio or the network weighing in, and they have some particular thing that has nothing to do with story, but relates to ‘Well this character has a very high Q Rating so let’s give him a lot more stuff to do’.”
Whether you liked the ending or not, and regardless of how closely the books will follow it, there is no denying Game of Thrones’ cultural impact and critical acclaim. Martin took to his Not a Blog to celebrate season eight’s recent Emmy wins…and to bid the show farewell. “After eight seasons, GAME OF THRONES leaves the air with more Emmys than any other primetime series, comedy or drama, in the entire history of television. Not too shabby, I’d say. I am very pleased to have been a part of setting that record.”
“Parting is such sweet sorrow, though… it was wonderful to share the moment with all the friends I’ve made during our run, but there was a bittersweet feel to the occasion as well, knowing that this would be the last time all of us would be together…Will I ever again have the privilege of working with some of these incredible talents who helped bring my books to life? One never knows…”
Martin finishes his post by reminding us that he and HBO aren’t done with Westeros – not by a long shot. “I have WINDS OF WINTER to finish… and A DREAM OF SPRING… and more Dunk & Egg stories… and the second volume of Archmaester Gyldayn’s history. And we hope to have some exciting news about the successor shows soon as well. Stay tuned.”
Read the rest of his post here.
Hodor
On his experiences in Hollywood, he continued: “You get totally extraneous things like the studio or the network weighing in, and they have some particular thing that has nothing to do with story, but relates to ‘Well this character has a very high Q Rating so let’s give him a lot more stuff to do’.”
This is the main reason why I’m cynical about the prequels. Too many people will get involved that are driven primarily by ratings and what’s currently trending rather than story or character development.
Tell a good story and the ratings will come, just like GoT. Hopefully they won’t do the reverse.
We’ll see.
“…does nothing to clear the air. In fact, it may muddy the waters further.”
Does it also mix the metaphors?
😀
Martin acknowledges that the show’s ending was “not completely faithful” to what he envisions for his books. “Otherwise, it would have to run another five seasons.” Given the enormous scope of the novels and that many characters and storylines had already been cut, this certainly doesn’t come as surprise.
The ending can’t be faithful because the telling varied greatly. For example, there’s no fAegon in the television production, so Varys was plotting to put Dany on the Iron Throne all along. Now, in the books, Varys may still come to champion Dany, may still betray her, and may still die by Drogonfire, but his path there will be much longer and different.
GRRM got the privilege of dictating the ending to D&D, but he wasn’t required to earn it by providing a full story to get there. Thus, they had to work out their own paths to get the characters there. That’s a huge onus to put upon them, and yet they’ve never once complained about it.
D&D deserve enormous praise for providing an ending when GRRM still can’t get the job done.
Tensor the Mage, Amused That “The Winds of Winter” Will Become A Twice-Told Tale The Very Moment It Finally Gets Published,
I wouldn’t feel too bad for D&D. They are millions of dollars richer and are more professionally in-demand now than they’ve ever been. I don’t think they got the short end of the stick or anything like that. D&D never would’ve had this opportunity had it not been for GRRM’s creation in the first place. Frankly, it would make D&D look pretty bad if they did complain about not being spoon-fed everything.
It was a team effort. GRRM gave them something to work with, and D&D had to fill in some of the blanks and adapt the sprawling work into a tv format.
Mr Derp,
I agree with your entire first paragraph, and I did not say I felt bad for D&D. I was merely appreciating their accomplishment.
…and D&D had to fill in some of the blanks and adapt the sprawling work into a tv format.
They signed up for the second part of that, which was a large enough challenge by itself. GRRM later (and non-consensually!) added the first part, and it wasn’t just “some of the blanks,” it was the entire rest of the “sprawling work”, from Jon Snow’s assassination to the very end.
Mr Derp,
GRRM is also millions of dollars richer but he complains how hard his job is all the time.
Mr Derp,
Protecting the character because he is popular is not always the bad things. In Breaking Bad Jesse was “saved”, even if the original plan was that he would die at the end of the first season. And now he will even have a movie, where he will be the main character.
mau,
You defend D&D so much that sometimes I wonder if you’re a burner account for one of them, so I already know where you stand. Btw, I’m just foolin’ around 🙂
I’m not defending GRRM. The purpose of my comment was because I don’t like how things tend to be “Team GRRM” vs. “Team D&D” as if there’s a good guy and a bad guy in all this.
They both contributed to the success of GoT, and both deserve credit. They probably both deserve criticism too.
If it wasn’t for GRRM, the world of Ice and Fire never would’ve existed in the first place.
If it wasn’t for D&D, it’s possible that GoT wouldn’t have made it as a tv show at all. Though, I would caveat this by saying that there were probably a number of people who could’ve adapted GoT to tv since GRRM had already laid out the necessary groundwork to make a show possible.
I kind of compare it to a song that was made more popular by a separate entertainer than the one who originally wrote it. For example, everyone knows how successful Whitney Houston’s “I Will Always Love You” became, however, it never would’ve existed had Dolly Parton not written the song years prior.
It depends on who’s making the decisions. When I hear things like the “network” and “studios” weighing in, to me that means the decisions are being made by people that are complete slaves to popular culture trends and only have dollar signs in mind, not creative or compelling stories.
I sure hope the tv ending isn’t faithful to the books. Even if it is similar, I know the book would lay it much smoother, and over a longer period of time. I can’t for the next two books TBH.
Also, I’ve missed you guys all so much.
Mr Derp,
Personally I have a feeling that too high ratings can even hurt a story. Many shows that got high ratings falter in the mainstream storytelling right after that. The fan favorite needs to have more scenes than needed, there needs to be more action even when not needed (which GoT also suffered from I think the first seasons had only action when the story asked for it not the other way around), more jokes etc.
And I see that shows with high scores but lower ratings tend to keep their quality more often. They resolve to clever ways to tell their story with the low budget they got. But the positive side of this is, that you don’t have too worry about too many opinions, but more on a select who watch your show, so you don’t need to resort to the mainstream tricks to keep them as fans.
Still I’m proud and happy of D&D. They gave us things to talk about, to laugh about, to care about, to cry about. The backlash is only proof of it, they gave us something of great worth that we cherish a lot. We cared. And not too far into the future I will watch the show again and again and again.
Mr Derp,
Agree with you. That “Team GRRM” vs “Team D&D”. Both are great, one are great book adapters which did not many could do in this world which say a lot with the 6+ billion people living in it. And GRRM created a world and book series that the same not many could do. They are both tier-A grate in their work.
but both also have their faults, the show has it’s faults and is maybe too short. The books has faults with the long time it does to write it and the many side plots which could have been written shorter or more in the mind of one POV. But that’s a choice. Like GRRM said he wished he had a robb pov chapter, he didn’t, should he be mad about that his whole life or just think. The endresult was great so it does not matter in the end. He tend to let it go.
Making faults and mistakes is only human, and D&D, GRRM are all 3 are human. And no matter what, every human makes mistakes if they want it or not. So I’m not team GRRM and I’m not team D&D. I’m on both teams, and I wish them both all the good fortunes in the projects to come. (Only I wish that for GRRM after winds and dreams is over, because I can’t wait any longer, I’m fully in winds mode because of the sample chapters.)
Ooh! Can I play too? “Tighter, Tighter” was a monster hit for Alive and Kicking in 1970, but Tommy James (of Tommy James & The Shondells) wrote it and produced it (and later did his own version).
Mr Derp,
Since D&D were harassed online since 2011 everyone who speaks positively about them is accused of being one of them.
Hatred against them is so normalized that you need some hidden agenda in order to say something nice about the creators of the show we all (I hope) love.
Sadly I’m not Benioff or Weiss. Life would be easier if I was.
mau,
Either that, or if two posters in the same comments section liked season 8, you’re accused of being the same person.
I knew it!
mau = Young Dragon confirmed! 😉
Mr Derp,
The treacly “There She Goes” (1999) by Sixpence None the Richer, popularized by TV commercials for feminine hygiene products around 2004-2005, was a horrible cover of the now-classic 1990 original by The La’s.
Here. Two versions of The La’s “There She Goes” (1990). Enjoy… 😍
From album:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu2iv-vMKT8
12” vinyl version
Ten Bears,
How about “All Along the Watchtower”, a song written by Bob Dylan but made popular by Jimi Hendrix.
I still imagine Bran = King, Dany will destroy KL and be killed by Jon, and Cersei and Jaime will die together.
“Work on WINDS OF WINTER continues, and remains my top priority. It is ridiculous to think otherwise.” (spends 10 days in Hollywood)
Mr Derp,
Good one!
Congratulations! I was waiting for someone to pick up on that. (I didn’t want it to be me.)
Yesterday, I came across a picture online of George visiting the set of Seth MacFarlane’s “The Orville” last week. He even got an official crew hat!
https://mobile.twitter.com/SethMacFarlane/status/1177770449188450305/photo/1
Yeah, I think the major beats will be the same. Personally, I’m not over the moon about some of these story bits but that’s just one girl’s opinion 😉
I expect the deviations will occur with more secondary characters (some of whom aren’t dead in the books or exist only in the books) — and those will have major impacts on the plot.
That one’s in my back pocket forevermore. In case that goldbricker was wondering (ever since he said unwisely posted that) yes, he does have to ask permission before he takes a piss.
Looking forward to more tales of Dunk and Egg!
The photograph at the lead of this story:
– makes me wonder what is better, (1) an great story that remains unfinished and so leaves the reader to imagine wonderful things; OR (2) a story with an ending that is so insensible and flummoxing that it spoils the entire experience.
– reminds me of the debate on whether it is polite to “boo” at the end of a bad opera
– makes me think of soft harmless objects like rotten eggs, pies, overripe tomatoes, rancid milkshakes and how to aim at the fringes but miss the middle.
Yes, spare me the notes that it is GRRM’s ending. It may be – but it cannot be attached at just any point of the storyline. You have to have a storyline that leads up to a ending that develops naturally from the story told. You cannot simply slap on the even the “correct” ending any point and walk off.
I will not even get into BranKing and the NightKing mumbo jumbo.
Mr Derp,
Spot on. The series gained its following through innovative storytelling and risk taking. No wonder things changed after the audience exploded. HBO has more integrity than any other network though, and Jane Goldman is a creator with a great track record, hence why I’m still somewhat optimistic. What I worry more about is the very small, but extremely vocal group of arm charm whiners who complain about everything and cry racism and sexism anything happens to female or minority character. I think Jane Goldman being a female showrunner will help a lot with that though.
Catspaw Assassin,
Me too!
Mango,
”… makes me wonder what is better, (1) a great story that remains unfinished and so leaves the reader to imagine wonderful things; OR (2) a story with an ending that is so insensible and flummoxing that it spoils the entire experience.”
________
I’ll go with (1).
GRRM definitely muddies the waters here, is he speaking in general terms or specifically about GOT? He clearly is disappointed that minor characters never made the show but I always felt he was realistic enough to know it’s impossible to follow everything to the smallest detail. I wonder what he refers to me when me mentions certain characters are popular so we give them extra material, potentially Cersei/Lena covering Young Griff story line but I still feel that would be bad story telling in the novels to do that.
He has been a screenwriter himself so of course he knew that cuts and changes would have to be made. It’s especially ironic since he began writing ASOIAF to give himself freedom to let his imagination loose, conscious that he was producing something that would be “unfilmable”.
As for popular characters being expanded for the show, an obvious example is Bronn.
The best way for GRRM to show how better he is than D&D is to finish his story and show how it should have been done.
Mango,
Well, number 2 will be the better story by default. After all, a story without an ending isn’t a story. We should all be grateful that we’re not faced with this dilemma. We lucked out that GOT doesn’t resemble number 1 or number 2.
mau,
Yep, this comment wins. Even if the outcome is the same, the journey there would be monumentally better.
Chilli,
Nice to see I’m not the only one!
Mango,
”… I will not even get into BranKing and the NightKing mumbo jumbo.”
—————-
Yeah, that’s probably for the best.
• Night King is a show-only invention, right?
• While people have complained that “D&D butchered Stannis,” or that they dumbed down Tyrion and Jon, what they did to my boy NK was unforgivable.
From the best battle commander on the planet who’d outfoxed those silly humans at every turn*, NK became a moron who inexplicably left himself and his entire army vulnerable to instant extermination by showing up in person at the Godswood when any of his wight soldiers or WW lieutenants could have hacked down a paraplegic space cadet in a wheelchair. Not to mention NK’s long drawn out stare-down of Bran instead of immediately drawing his ice sword and impaling his defenseless target without hesitation. (While they were at it, why not just resort to the old Hollywood cliche of having the villain pause before executing the captured good guy to give a long speech detailing his dastardly plans – a delay that invariably allows the good guy to free himself or the good guy’s ally to burst in and save the day? Oh wait…ASNAWP ex machina...)
No way NK would pull a Leon Lett and start celebrating before crossing the goal line. No way NK aka the Sun-tzu Beyond the Wall would be so careless as to risk positioning his field general (himself) anywhere near the zone of danger. No way NK would pull defeat from the jaws of victory when he was seconds away from annihilating the overwhelmed defenders. No way he would spend even a second gloating over his prize.**
* By my scorecard, NK was at least 3-0-1 against humankind before the WF debacle.
• First of the First Men? Resounding victory for Ol’ Blue Eyes.
• Hardhome? Undisputed win for Team NK + successful recruitment of thousands of new AotD cadets; psychologically deflating loss for Team Jon.
• Frozen Lake? Got himself an ice dragon. ‘Nuff said. (For the good guys, obtaining one bagged and tagged captured wight to take home for a Show-and-Tell with Cersei that accomplished nothing = zero or negligible positive outcome of ill-conceived Wight Hunt Plan.)
• March on Eastwatch? Breached the Wall, as freaked out NW/Wildling sentries scurried down the stairs or perished. AotD poured through with no resistance. Another victory in the “W” column for NK.
• Assault on 3ER Cave? I’m being charitable in calling this a draw, only because Bran got away. (Casualties/Self-Sacrifices: Hodor, 3ER 1.0, Summer, Leaf, and apparently, the rest of CotF. And for what? So Bran could ultimately do nothing other than sit in a clearing and offer himself as bait to NK because…because “memories” or some other argle bargle.)
** I’m reminded of a scene in “The Good, the Bad, & The Ugly.” (Cont. in next Comment.)
(Cont. from 9:46 am above)
** As I recall the scene and dialogue from that movie, Eli Wallach’s character, Tuco, is sitting in a bubble bath when he hears the sound of spurs on the floor outside his room right before a gunman bursts in to kill him.
With weapon drawn, the gunman then tells Tuco why he’s come to kill him – when Tuco raises his own pistol out of the bubbles and promptly shoots him dead.
Tuco’s advice to the gunman’s corpse:
“If you’re going to shoot, shoot. Don’t talk.”
Mango,
”… makes me wonder what is better, (1) a great story that remains unfinished and so leaves the reader to imagine wonderful things; OR (2) a story with an ending that is so insensible and flummoxing that it spoils the entire experience.“
_______
I find it kind of ironic that George has been so vocal about how much he detests fan fiction, and yet, because his “great story…remains unfinished” for so long, leaving readers “to imagine wonderful things”, George has practically invited fan fiction that finishes the story.
Ten Bears,
By waiting so long I feel like GRRM lost autonomy, lost owernship of his story. Now interpretation of the books is canon.
If Jaime doesn’t kill Cersei in the books and if WW are destroyed at Winterfell while the war for the Throne goes on, fans will reject the story because it goes against their interpretation.
Popular interpretation is that ASOIAF is allegory for climate change and destruction of patriarchy. When the books prove that’s not the case he will be hated like Rowling or Lucas were. I could even imagine conspiracy theories that HBO forced him to write that ending.
When I think about this there is no reason for him to even write those books.
Ten Bears,
I retrieved a clip of that scene from “The Good, the Bad & The Ugly.” My recollection of it was a little hazy.
Anyway, Tuco’s preemptive blast + iconic line, “When you have to shoot, shoot. Don’t talk”, is at 1:02 – 1:20.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrYtD7gSWsI
I’ve often found myself muttering that line under my breath when watching a TV or movie villain yapping…. I almost wanted to yell something similar to NK when he was taking his sweet time walking over to Bran and then glaring down at him.
Young Dragon,
Having an ending is always better, because if you don’t like it you can ignore it. But if there is no ending at all you don’t have a choice.
I’m happy that they did S6 of House of Cards for example even if it was a complete disaster.
I don’t like Fantastic Beasts movies that much, but it would still be frustrating if they are just cancelled. I still think there is a potential in that story. Hopefully third movie will bring balance to the force.
mau,
”… When I think about this there is no reason for him to even write those books.“
_____
With the caveat that I do not blame him one bit for not finishing the books, it seems to me he’s been doing everything but working on those books.
Raenarys,
I feel like GRRM is overrated because last great book he wrote was published 19 years ago. In my opinion. But I’m still open minded and I’m rooting for him to surprise me.
I really like the ideas from the ending and I don’t get why it’s so hard for him to write it. I fell the path is pretty clear. Don’t waste time on Arianne and Victarion and start focusing on endgame King Bran the Broken, Mad Queen Daenerys and whatever he wants to do with Others.
This is a story about Stark, Lannister and Targaryen children. Don’t waste it on Greyjoys and Martells.
Ten Bears,
That’s true, but I think that’s because he deep down knows people look at him as genius and he thinks he can’t live up to that.
For me it was clear from his talk with Stephen King that has an imposter syndrome. He is victim of his own reputation. He should just relax and stop giving a fuck about fans. George Lucas was hated by SW fandom and now they are begging him to return. Times change. Who cares.
This statement makes no sense. You act as if any ending is automatically deserving of “enormous praise”, as though the quality of the ending is insignificant.
Anyone can end a story, that’s not the hard part. The hard part is doing it well, and that’s what is taking GRRM so long (among other things).
Literally anyone here could have written an ending to GoT. But not all of those endings would have been equally good.
Yes, D&D ended the story, so at least the show is complete, but that does not automatically mean they did a fantastic job. The quality of the show is, as everything, highly subjective.
If GRRM finishes the books, then we’ll be able to discuss who did it “better”, whatever that’s even supposed to mean. Until then, it’s premature to give them props while knocking George. His work is not finished yet.
mau,
His last great book was in 2011 when Dance with dragons came out.
And we can’t talk yet about how important those sidestories are until winds and dreams are out. And you state that they should not focus on those side stories but focus on Dany turning mad even when those side stories are connected to Dany tuning mad. So what is it, do they need to write those stories to make sure Danys turn is believable or skip them and not focusing on Dany turning mad story?
And I can’t still understand why somebody keeps talking bad about GRRM to make the show feel better. Why not defend the show by only talking about what the show did, instead of what GRRM didn’t do (yet)?
kevin1989,
He obviously is not capable to focus on those side stories and the main storylines at the same time. If he was that would have been great, but he clearly isn’t.
It’s impossible to talk about the show and completely ignore the books. Their flaws are connected.
Tensor the Mage, Who Does Indeed Find A Few Other Things More Tedious Than A Twice-Told Tale,
They were given the outlines of the major plot points and endings to major characters. It was up to D&D to connect the dots, so yeah, it was some of the blanks, not all. They were paid millions to do this and are now in demand professionally more than evah as a result, despite the fact that the ending received a very mixed reception. It wasn’t an easy task, but I don’t feel bad for them at all. Some people actually have real jobs that are far more important, far more difficult, and get very little in return for their services.
mau,
You seem to miss the point. What I read is that you love the show, as I do. Some don’t. And you want to convince other’s the show was great by making the books seem bad. Instead of talking negative about the books, better name the good things about the show, and not compare them to the books, because both book and show can be great or both can be bad. I can understand why you prefer the show because they streamlined more the main characters. Some others (like me) prefer the fully fleshed out story of the books in which even the side stories are fleshed out (still I love both).
Personally I appreciate both versions of the story.
kevin1989,
I’m not trying to convince anyone. I was talking about the books and the problems those books have. And since the writer is not able to finish those books it’s obvious that problems do exist, even if we can disagree what those problems are.
There is difference between fleshing things out and turning your story into unedited mess that can’t be finished. You can’t bite more than you can chew.
The show has separate problems and flaws and origins of those problems are the fact that the show is adaptation of unfinished unadaptable book series. Every show that surpassed the books like Big Little Lies or THT faced some problems. That’s inevitable almost. The nature of problems is always different, but you can always feel that something changed.
Raenarys,
I wouldn’t be so sure. Martin seems to have lost control of his story, so there’s always the possibility it will end up becoming an incoherent mess, unlike the show’s ending.
kevin1989,
I disagree. ADWD wasn’t a very well written book. I’m not sure how Winds or Dream will suddenly make
Comparisons between the books and show are inevitable. They are intertwined.
Nick20,
I loved the final season, but I agree with this statement.
Young Dragon,
The way Manderly find out that Rickon Stark was alive from Wex was unbelievably stupid and definition of plot convenience and retcon. I can only imagine online outrage if D&D did the same.
mau,
Young Dragon,
I think you mean much* like the shows ending 😉 I didn’t hate it.. And at the end of the day the storyline made sense. I just don’t like how we got there. I know GRRM’s version will go in depth, make it well rounded, and fill in a bunch of gaps/unanswered questions.
Nick20,
This statement makes no sense. You act as if any ending is automatically deserving of “enormous praise”, as though the quality of the ending is insignificant.
Young Dragon:
“After all, a story without an ending isn’t a story.”
Mau:
“Having an ending is always better, because if you don’t like it you can ignore it. But if there is no ending at all you don’t have a choice.”
Thank you both! Any ending is better than no ending because no ending means no story. Full stop.
D&D provided an ending, like it or not as you will. Write your own ending, for your own private consumption, if you like. But as of right now, as of any reasonable extrapolation from what we know right now, they have provided the only ending from anyone legally empowered to do so. Going on about whether GRRM’s ending might or might not be better is totally irrelevant so long as it does not exist.
One remains greater than zero. All else is commentary.
Tensor the Mage, Who Does Indeed Find A Few Other Things More Tedious Than A Twice-Told Tale,
You must really hate the NeverEnding Story then 😉
Commentary is one of the main reasons people come here, so I don’t see the problem here. Who cares if people want to discuss the potential differences in endings between the book and the show?
A Song of Ice and Fire is a story. Just because it doesn’t have an ending yet doesn’t mean it’s not a story. A story is nothing more than an account of events.
Personally, if I’m given the option of something terrible or nothing at all, I’ll choose nothing every time, but that’s just me, but this is really a matter of personal opinion rather than any kind of universal truth that needs to be dictated to people.
mau,
You stated above that the show is superior because it had an ending, and the books didn’t have an ending. I was referring to that.
And you’re right with that it’s difficult with ending a show that surpassed the books. I still think they did amazing with the show. But what came to my mind while reading your comment was season 5. Season 5 didn’t surpassed the books. I don’t even think a single character went beyond the books in that season (yet), that was season 6. But still D&D changed every single story from the basis of that story line. The closest storyline to what the books gave us was Tyrion. They showed us in season 1 till 4 that they are amazing adapters, one of the best in the world. So why not do the same with the 5th season. Adapt what is written and only when it surpassed the books make your own ending of it. Dorne was compeletely changed. Iron Island was completely changed. Sansa was completely changed and I think the biggest change she got. Dany storyline was also changed completely only the marriage and 5×09 and 5×10 stayed the same. Jon storyline from the books was also cut except his last episode and the first 3 of the season. Arya was changed heavily where only her being part of the faceless man was in touch with the books still we got a big story already of it. Cersei was also heavily changed, and Jaime was just made up even when they had a storyline from him that was going somewhere with Brienne.
I understand why they made those changes. It’s obvious. But the notion that they had it difficult because the books were not finished is not true. Because they could have adapted Feast and Dance more faithfully (not stretched like the books but still walk the same line of the books instead of changing it), and only after that changed it to their own version. Because what they did was walking a different line but hope it will end the same as Georges book.
Nick20 wrote at 11:26 am:
“Literally anyone here could have written an ending to GoT.”
_______
Why “literally”?
Ten Bears,
Lol, I knew you were going to pick up on that. Is it fair to say that you have a Stannis-sized pet peeve when it comes to the word “literally” used in grammar?
I just read the chapters of winds and I have to disagree fully. I can see clearly where martin is heading with many storylines and where the story’s need to go together in the future. I also have a sense where he wants to go with winds at the end and what he wants to tell in dream. And the storyline is streamlined perfectly and naturally. He is already getting storylines together at the end of his sample chapters.
What I think the biggest issue is with why GRRM has difficulty writing is his writing method. He delves deep into the mind of the character he is going to write and tries to get into that mindset. That’s why Dany’s chapters are differently written than Arya’s or Cersei’s. The problem is I think that how longer you live (better wording than getting older I think he he), that will get more and more difficult. Concentration becomes less, and everything else that is needed for how George writes his books. That’s why his side projects are easier. With his Fire and Blood books he just needs to think into how Targs thinks. With Dunk and Egg it’s also just one character.
Mr Derp,
”…Personally, if I’m given the option of something terrible or nothing at all, I’ll choose nothing every time, but that’s just me, but this is really a matter of personal opinion rather than any kind of universal truth that needs to be dictated to people.”
_____
It is a universal truth. It reminds me of dating advice I gave to my sisters a long time ago:
“Better to be alone than with the wrong person.”
Ah, but is it better to have loved and lost rather than to have never loved at all? I kind of go back and forth on that one a lot.
On the one hand, if it leaves you feeling bad in the end, then common sense says that it’s better to have never loved in the first place so you don’t know what it’s like to lose something so important.
But, to never experience love at all? I don’t know. It sucks to feel sad, but at the same time, it makes me happy that something can make me feel that sad to begin with. It’s like it makes me feel more alive, you know? It makes me feel human. The only way it’s even possible to feel that way is to have experienced something really good before, so I have to take the good with the bad. It’s almost like a beautiful sadness. I hope that makes sense.
Young Dragon,
the Queenmaker plot also make a lot of important it set’s Arianne’s story into motion and bringing Dorne and Aegon together which results in the destruction of house Lannister and in the end fuels the rage of Dany even further, Quentyn was probably send by Aegon to turn her rulling into ash so he and Arianne can take the throne for himself. It also give a big difference once Myrcella is given in KL and Cersei get’s hold of the sandsnakes who brough Myrcella their. Which will fuel the war with Doran all in the open. Tyrion’s travelogue was important when it comes to Aegon, he send him west which in the end resulted in the endgame with Dany turning everything in ash. See above. Sam’s travellogue is important because we learn things about the war against the white walkers. About his love for Gilly. His journey to Braavos was also important for Arya’s journey which made sure she became blind. It also result in Sam going to the citadel and restore the real horn of winter there which Euron will steal in winds to take down the wall. And travellogues are important for character development. Brienne was important because we finally saw how the common folk felt instead of the high lords which we only saw in the first 3 seasons. It also put her in the crosshair of Ladystoneheart which probably will result in the death of Cersei in the end.
And that last one you’re wrong, because not until SoS you didn’t know why many things happening in the first book happening, even the mindset was different. The first book we readers blamed all on the lannisters, but not until Storm of Sword we understood that it was LF that the blame should be. And I can give an example that you’re argument about knowing what happening in Clash was clear and not needed storms for it. The burning of Winterfell. I think nobody knew in clash that that was in fact Ramsay, we didn’t understand part of clash until later books. Same with Roose we didn’t understood Roose until SoS.
But I agree about the structure of Feast and Dance on one point. The climax of Dance should never have gone to winds and should have been in Dance itself. And he should never had split the characters in 2 books. He should just have written all in Feast and should have concerned about part one of that big storyline and end that part at the end. And having Dorne for instance only through the eyes of Arianne. It would have done the same in less pages. If he wanted Areo he could have become a feast character once another pov would have been killed. And same for Iron Island. Damphair wasn’t needed until his winds chapter. So that should have be his first chapter in the saga.
They didn’t sideline favorite characters for less favorite and interesting characters. That’s a personal opinion for you. Doran, Euron, Arianne for instance are 3 fan favorites among book fans. Which are not in the first 3 books. Same with Cersei’s chapters which is liked by many book readers. Dance for instance has less filler chapter than for Clash, more of those fillers are in fact important for the endgame of the saga. In which GRRM is sneaky with it to make clear. “Lots is under the sea”.
Comparisons between the books and show are inevitable. They are intertwined.: Not really. When I watch Harry Potter movies I don’t compare them to the books and visa versa. Why? Because I based how good I find the books with comparing it too other books, and how good I find the movie with comparing it to other movies. Same with GoT. The show I will compare to other shows not the book. And I will compare the books with other saga books.
You made my point I was trying to make early. Once again you made a statement of GRRM body of work combining with D&D body of work, to make a point. You take something from the books what it did wrong and states D&D did not do such things wrong. And that’s a bit of a falicy. Because that GRRM did it that way doesn’t make the mistakes D&D right. But that’s what you try to put forth. D&D are great because GRRM made this mistake.
Tensor the Mage, Who Does Indeed Find A Few Other Things More Tedious Than A Twice-Told Tale,
But why talk about the show has an ending and the books don’t. Do we know what the future brings, I don’t have a glass bowl at home which states if the books will or not have an ending. So that argument is at the moment a fallacy, because it does not have a concrete answer at the moment until it does. And personally I don’t want to think about the moment where that argument becomes the truth, and not because it means the book doesn’t have an ending, if you understand what I mean.
It also is a fallacy with the statement: no ending means no story.
Why? because if this argument is true that means GoT the show wasn’t a story in the first 72 episodes it aired. But only once it ended in the 73. And that’s just not true, GoT had a story from episode 1, and the books had a story once the first book was on the shelves.
Mr Derp,
I’m with you. How many shows I watched that I really disliked the ending and the last season, luckily for me I still have GoT on high accounts for every season so I have that going for me. But the only thing I can think of with those shows is that one season that I disliked the show, damn what do I hate that I ever watched the reboot of X-Files or Heroes. But those cancelled shows I just think: Did I wish they just finish this wonderfull show. And my thoughts keep positive about it.
Ten Bears,
Mr Derp,
Thank you both for getting my head spin about which one is better when it comes to love.
My head is literally spinning thinking about it Ten bears 😉
It sure is a Stannis-sized peeve. I can’t take it anymore. These days, “literally” has been drained of meaning. It has become a “lazy word”, thrown haphazardly into sentences as if it somehow conveys emphasis. It irks the f*ck out of me.
What’s worse is that too often “literally” is used when its opposite – “figuratively” – is intended; or when “practically”, “virtually”, or “just about” would be appropriate.
I remember almost blowing a gasket a while back when reading an article posted here about increased security measures to prevent leaks, and specifically, how other shows that have gained in popularity have also had to implement safeguards against leaks, hacks, and spoilers.
The article quoted from an interview of a showrunner or producer of “Stranger Things”, who had reached out to his counterparts on GoT for advice. While this may not be verbatim, he said something like:
“I literally picked their brains.”
Did he remove sections of their skulls with a cranial saw and then dissect out pieces of brain tissue? Or did he just drill holes into their heads, jab in an ice pick and pluck out some bits of gray matter?
[*Grits teeth. Ends rant.*]
kevin1989,
”Thank you both for getting my head spin about which one is better when it comes to love.
My head is literally spinning thinking about it Ten bears 😉”
______
How kind of you to say so!
FYI: There was a corollary to the dating advice I gave my sisters (“Better to be alone than with the wrong person”). I also told them that if they were involved with the wrong guy, they wouldn’t be emotionally available if the right guy came along.
I think you unintentionally have given the ones who hated season 8 in their figuratively core another argument. 😉
Ten Bears,
You’re right. If a relationship doesn’t work, best is to become single again how hard it even is. Move on, treasure the good times that you have, no reason to abandon them. And when you’re ready again be open to another relationship.
And about the literally annoyance, I personally have that when people say thinks like: I literally just died of (laughing/panic etc), no you didn’t you dumbtwit you just posted that tweet/app/facebook post etc
Mr Derp,
“A story is nothing more than an account of events.”
While GRRM was busy not completing ASoIaF, he did produce two volumes of lore on the back-story. That lore is “nothing more than an account of events.” It’s not a story; it has no themes, it has no character arcs. (By contrast, Dunk & Egg are stories.)
For example, Jon Snow knifing Dany is an event, the story is that Jon’s final conflict was always going to be between love and duty, because that is the conflict which defined his entire life; indeed, it was the reason he was Jon Snow, not Aegon VI Targ’. If GRRM ever writes his intended ending to ASoIaF, Jon Snow’s final conflict will be between love and duty, however the events play out.
“Personally, if I’m given the option of something terrible or nothing at all, I’ll choose nothing every time,”
That’s your prerogative, of course. ASoIaF currently ends with no resolutions to any of the primary characters’ arcs, or to any of the major conflicts. Game of Thrones has all of those, whether you care for them or not. I’ve read a suggestion at this site to ignore everything in Game of Thrones after the final scene in Season 6. You can do that too, if you like. But ending the “account of events” there leaves the story unresolved, of which I gave one example already.
Tensor the Mage, Who Does Indeed Find A Few Other Things More Tedious Than A Twice-Told Tale,
Alright Tensor. I’ve got to know: Don’t your Comments get stuck in Modration Purgatory each time you modify your screen name?
kevin1989,
We spent 4 or 5 chapters with Quentyn as he traveled from Dorne to Mereen just so he can get roasted while freeing the dragons? Don’t you think Martin could have found another means of freeing them without wasting our time with this boring character? Aegon did not send Quentyn to Mereen. Doran did. Aegon still considers Danerys to be an ally. Quentyn’s death wasn’t needed to push Doran into the hands of Aegon. Aegon is his nephew and was the first Targaryen to land in Westeros.
The Queenmaker plot went absolutely nowhere and will in no way impact what happens between Dorne, Aegon, and King’s Landing. Those plots would happen without it, and the war between Martells and Lannisters is about to be brought into the open anyway when they ally with Aegon.
Considering we don’t even know how big of a role Aegon is going to play, your argument about Tyrion’s travelogue is moot. Even so, Tyrion leaves Aegon at some point and his storyline still barely moves.
Again, you’re making a lot of assumptions about Sam and his storyline. I mean, when did Sam deliver the Horn of Joramun.
Travelogues are a way to develop characters, but it shouldn’t come at the expense of plot. That was Brienne’s travelogue in a nut shell. Character development at the expense of plot, especially since she only meets up with Stoneheart in like three pages.
Yes, some times the later books needed to shine a light on the earlier books to see their relevance, but with Feast and Dance, it seems like it’s every single plot point and storyline that I now have to wait and see what the relevance was.
Of course this is all my opinion, I apologize if I made it sound otherwise. I know those characters are popular, but to me, Doran is still a moron, Arianne is a less interesting version of Sansa, and Euron is a walking cliche.
kevin1989,
”… Comparisons between the books and show are inevitable. They are intertwined.: Not really. When I watch Harry Potter movies I don’t compare them to the books and visa versa. Why? Because I based how good I find the books with comparing it too other books, and how good I find the movie with comparing it to other movies. Same with GoT. The show I will compare to other shows not the book. And I will compare the books with other saga books.”
_____
Hey Kevin! Slightly off-topic…
If you’re ever interested in excellent films that were faithful to the excellent books on which they were based, allow me to recommend:
• “The Silence of the Lambs” written by Thomas Harris + movie starring Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins.
• “The Outlaw Josey Wales” written by Forrest Carter + movie starring and directed by Clint Eastwood, and also starring Sondra Locke and Chief Dan George.
Young Dragon,
1. Ned’s head got chopped off in his first book so what’s your point with that. He was there for a part of the story and now he isn’t.
2. And you seem to miss the point entirely I tried to make. It was necessary for the story that a dornish prince was the reason the dragons came lose. So Dany has Dorne already in her mind as a part of westeros who went against her wishes. As the result the dragons will probably be the reason Meerreen will be in flames. Which Dany will see at that moment only as quenrtn being responsible for that event. But now she goes back to westeros. She sees the mummers dragon who she is warned about by queathe with a dornish princess by her side sitting on her throne. Putting 1 and 1 together in her mind. Arianne send her brother to dorne to destroy her city and ruling to make certain she would lose against the slavers so Arianne could sit on her iron throne with the mummers dragon. Which will drive Dany towards her dark side. Without quentyn that rage wouldnt be fueled that much. But quentyn action will be one of the last drops that make the inferno that she will give to kings landing in the end and making her the villain she become. So saying that he is not important is just false. Quentyn is a huge important for endgame and for who Dany will become as a character.
Young Dragon,
3. I never said that Doran didn’t send quentyn. I said Dany will think aegon and Arianne has send quentyn. That’s a big difference. And it’s all in got style. Having a plan backfire and result in the exact opposite outcome.
4. Where did you get that I said that Doran pushed aegon towards aegon? I never stated that. As I said before aegon sees Dany as an ally Doran sees Dany as an Allie. But after quentyns stupid action combined with her warnings. She will see them as the enemy working against her. Fueling her paranoid and making her the villain in the end. And yes I know Doran send Arianne towards aegon because he wants to know if it’s his nephew or not.
5. As for the queenmakers plot. It did help bring Marcella back towards Kingslanding. You say that could be done in another way how? Where you also changed the chronical order I said how this will effect the rest. First cercei turns against storms end which she will lose. After that she learns about Arianne. Has the sandsnakes by her hands. And executes them. Which results in more hate from Doran. And more the irony that his plans is failing. Which will in turn fueled Arianna more to defeat cercei. Which leads to the end of the lannister rule in kings landing. Which is for me personal more interesting a real plot than storming the castle in one day and be done with it.
6. You states what’s the point multiple times. What’s the point about even most things in the story. What’s the point of the burning of winterfell and the whole storyline there. If bran just could decide that he has visions. Maybe just go north. Why go through the trouble of telling that story and letting winterfell burn first. Or what’s the point of having Robb be crowned king if he will be killed before he could get revenge on the lannisters.etc the point is that that’s the story that brings it a step further. Same with all in dance. It brings us a step closer to the endgame.
Young Dragon,
7. The part of aegon being part of the endgame is already a given in the written books. Dany already saw him in a vision where he is being welcomed by the people of kings landing with open arms. Which angers her when she sees the mummers dragon being welcomed like that. She is already told by quathe that she needs to defeat the mummers dragon. And Martin already spilled it in interviews that there will be a dance of dragon part 2. Aegon VS Dany. My theory is by the way that danys visions of quathe comes because quathe is being imprisoned by euron. He also got his hands on pyat pree. And he is doing some sort of blood magic all the time. Quathe seems to disappear all the time. He uses her in some way to give Dany those false visions to make her paranoid.
8. Tyrion also states that aegon took his bait. So tyrion didn’t send aegon for good intentions west. We don’t know why he did it. And you said he is not important. That’s because this was aegons build up season. Look back at book 1.we got the build up of theon, Stannis and some others but the story was not start there only in the next one. Same with brienne. She was in clash introduced but important in sos. Aegon is introduced in dance but important in winds.
9. Thormund stated that the horn of mance was a fake one. Not the horn a winter. He told that of Jon. The question is who was telling the truth. My guess is that storywise it makes more sense that Thormund states the truth. Why because the Wall needs to come done. And the horn of mance was burned meaning that the horn needs to be still out there. It was already stated that oldtown has books about the destruction of the dragons (fire), so it’s not so far out there that the ice part is also there. And the horn of winter is in old Town. Just a theory of course. We already known that euron wants to own all gods. His words. He already got the seven, the red God, and some other gods. He still haven’t got the old gods. Meaning euron will want to go after the others too to collect them to own them and be the ultimate God himself. He is preparing to attack oldtown at the moment. But he doesn’t collect anything he doesn’t care about that. But he wants something from oldtown. So what does he want? My guess is books about the destruction of the dragons. My guess about Sam why I think he has a part to play with that is the following, Jon found in clash of kings dragon glass with a horn with it. He gave that horn to Sam. Which Sam also took to oldtown. I think it’s safe to assume that horn is the horn of winter. And Sam being Sam wants to examine it and make it and probably thinks it’s a weapon against the others, it was with the dragonglass weapons after all. But than euron recognize the horn when he attacks old Town and takes it. He knows the counterpart of the dragon horn. The rest is easily filled it what euron would do with it. A God collector having the last peace he needs to collect his last God. And another hint is given by George. Sam is from horn Hill.
Kevin1989,
1. Ned’s execution made it so that the Starks and the Lannisters would be be at peace with one another, leading to the North seceding from the Iron Throne. That’s a very big plot point in the story, and I didn’t have to wait until the next book to know it.
2, 3, and 4. Your right, I misread your post. Most arguments I’ve seen regarding Quentyn’s purpose involve his death being the reason Dorne sides with Aegon over her. However, you make a lot, and I mean a lot, of assumptions. I can’t even argue any of this because your entire argument is hypothetical.
5. In your post, you said the Sandsnakes delivering Myrcella to King’s Landing will allow Cersei to get her hands on them, thus bringing the Martell/Lannister war out into the open. I was only saying that the Martells siding with Aegon would achieve the same result. As for Myrcella being back in King’s Landing, how would that fit in to the plot? And again, you make a lot of assumptions about where the plot is going to go.
Young Dragon,
10. For me brienne is one of my favorite storyline because it’s heavily character development. I love that. I don’t like when plot takes over the characters. And as you may guess with gaming I like to distance my self from the plot for weeks and only wondering around. Exploring. I love that. (except with a good game like last of us which has a great plot and character development for a game)
10. As for Doran. I think he’s smart but that he waited to long. He concerned him too much with the danger of tywin that he waited too long. And now he will face the dragons wrath. As for Arianne and euron. I would recommend the chapters of winds that had released. Eurons important for the endgame is revealed there and Arianne is more interesting there.
As for the structure I agree fully. The ending of dance should be in dance. And he should just have made a part 1 and part 2 for those books. Rather have a 1500 page book with that ending in it. Than waiting that long for the ending of those storylines. But in the end for me it doesn’t matter when I read a saga it is just one big book. So in the end asoiaf will be a big book of 9000+ pages for me.
Ten Bears,
I have read the Hannibal books. And I watched the show of Hannibal which I loved by the way. A bit gruesome sometimes but the psychology in it was amazing. Shame it got canceled. Luckily the actors all stated if there ever will be need of a 4th season they will all come back. And it was a shame because they finally were going to film the silence of the lamb storyline. I never saw the movie after that because I had the Hannibal in my mind of the TV show. And I have difficult by keeping 2 versions of the same story different in my head when it comes to the same medium. And it’s a shame Anthony Hopkins is an amazing actor. One of the best. Where is the last one about the movie you posted?
But for me a adaption doesn’t need to be faithful to the page. As long as the soul of the story is being put on screen. For instance lord of the rings has many changes in it. Even gimli changed from a sour puss in the books to a comical release in the movies. I can see why some hated it. But for me the movies did what is should have. Putting the bond of a fellowship on screen. And for me Peter Jackson did the best with the story that could be done on screen. Even with the changes I love both versions equally.
Sorry for the long post. Just like the master of the books. I’m a garderner myself when it comes to my writing.
“Alright Tensor. I’ve got to know: Don’t your Comments get stuck in Modration Purgatory each time you modify your screen name?”
They spend more time in moderation, but not terribly longer.
Also, I’m with you on “literally,” especially when used for “figuratively.” That’s a flammable combination for me. (And an inflammable one, too!)
My own pet peeve is “utilize” as a fancy synonym for “use.” One uses a screwdriver to drive screws, but utilizes a screwdriver to pry open a can of paint.
I do have to disagree with your points about the NK and his death (disanimation?) in the Godswood. Not only was that the thematically correct place for his long-overdue demise, but we saw at Hardhome, the Frozen Lake, and Eastwatch how he’s a real show-off. He was savoring his triumph over the Three-Eyed Raven, who had just escaped him on the previous try. Your Princess was not in another castle, and she also wasn’t known to him, so he never saw her coming. Her roles as a Stark protecting her pack, a stealth warrior-assassin, and as someone who had refused Death (on more than one occasion!) made her the perfect end for the NK.
Kevin1989,
”….film the silence of the lamb storyline. I never saw the movie after that because I had the Hannibal in my mind of the TV show.”
——-
Ugh. I saw a few episodes of the “Hannibal” TV show. I thought it blew. Sorry. And TV Lecter had no similarities to the Oscar winning portrayal of Dr. Lecter by Anthony Hopkins in the movie. Oscar winner Jodie Foster was terrific too.
I, unfortunately, agree with this. I know people who loved Hannibal and I love Bryan Fuller (Wonderfalls, Dead Like Me, Pushing Daisies) but I didn’t like Hannibal.
I did love Silence of the Lambs. Nobody was able to replace Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins for me.
“Quid pro quo, yes or no.”
(I have a friend named Clarice and all throughout grade school, people would quote the movie at her. She hated it 😀 We loved it.)
Huge spoilers ahead:
Winds of Winter will be released next year.
A song of Ice and Fire is structured in 3 acts.
1st – until Jon dies,
2nd – until Dany dies,
3rd – after that.
The show stops at the end of “The Game of Thrones” with the burning of the throne.
I agree, for me GRRMs last great book was Storm of Swords. The last two books although not bad by any means noticeably drop off when compared to the first three and instead present a world building almost messy meander rather than a roller coaster you experience earlier. I felt the show did very well to trim the fat from them during season 5 as they would have made very poor tv and hit audiences numbers.
Now based upon season 6 of the show I do expect Winds to return to a much more contracted and exciting format like Storm but I highly doubt we will ever see the final book.
I’m now about 400 pages in of my boiled leather journey reading the last two books as one big 2000+ page book. So far, it is very different than earlier books, but that’s because it’s an “aftermath” book. When I first read the title “A Feast for Crows” I thought it would be about Jon and the Nights Watch with the Crow reference, but most of Jon’s story is all in ADWD. The title of the book is referring to crows picking at the remains of all of the bodies after the war of the 5 kings. It’s clearly an aftermath book after a bunch of roller coaster action (as you described) in the earlier books. Dany decides to stay in Maureen and rule. One extra reason from the books is that she says she wants to give her dragons time to grow! (by the way for season 8 folks.. she seemed much more patient in the books so far. It seems like book Dany might have taken Sansa’s advice to rest some before attacking KL…but maybe she will change in the books later?) But she’s going to be in Maureen for awhile, so we know she’s not going to be attacking KL any time soon. There are many many many independent stories going on. Very few of them are intersecting yet, so that can make the experience reading (or watching season 5) a bit mind boggling. The thing that ties everyone together so far is the death of Tywin and seeing how this sends ripples and waves through all of Westeros. As others have said it’s an examination of power. There is much more “Game of Thrones” strategy going on with LF and others. Jon is learning how to rule as the Lord Commander and he’s killed the boy in him. There is a ton there to dig into, especially if you enjoy living with these characters longer now that the show is over. Brienne’s character is developing and she can’t help but think of Jaime… (love that!).. But everything is very very separated so far, and since the wars are over, there just isn’t that much action at the moment. It’s the aftermath of Tywin’s death and the wars. Most of the action happened in ASOS and we’re in the “now what” phase…. (Greyjoy’s are leading up to a kingsmoot is another thing building….)
Ten Bears,
The first episodes are not that great I agree, I almost stopped around episode 3. But then I watched it further where it was heading, and it was brilliantly in the end, for me one of the best shows I ever watched. Especially season 2 and 3. And Gillian Anderson is always lovely to see on screen, who is very important in season 2 and 3 of that show. And the filming of the red dragon story-line was also done very well and close too the books, and I read better than the movie of Hannibal, but that’s season 3.
And the ratings of the seasons it’s also visible. Season 1 received on RT a 81% season 2 and 3 98%. And on metacritic season 1 got the low score of 70 but season 2 got already 88 and 3 84.
And Anthony Hopkins, of course nobody could come close to him, he is just one of the best out there. Brilliant actor.
Taste may differ but I liked the show very much (except the first half of the first season, so I would still advice too get past that point, it’s not until half of season 1 that the show shows it’s brilliancy). And I’m happy that I read that Bryan Fuller probably got his hands on the rights on the Silence of the Lambs book, and that all the actors of the show want to drop all their other projects if the get-go comes for the fourth season. And I think it will come because Gillian Anderson already announced this year that she will drop out of X-files if a new season ever comes.
And about closeness to the books, when I read Hannibal and Hannibal rising, how Hannibal was portrait there was very close to what we saw in the TV show.
sorry for the long post again, I’m a talker.
Poor girl XD
Jon Snowed,
George already stated there will be no new POVs. And we know he likes to kill his POVs. So I think the trimming will begin shortly after the parts that were suppose to be in Dance of Dragons.
I think Theon, Barristan, Victorion, Areoh, Cersei will bite the dust at least in winds. And Jaime will die at the beginning of Dreams fighting against the others. And I agree that his world building could have been done better. For instance George does a lot of playing with the timeline, he already did it with Dorne and Iron Island in Feast. That happened around the second part of SoS. He should just have focused on the main characters in Feast. Build one of the two, Iron Island for instance. And with Dance he could once again have the story revolved around the main characters and add Dorne too the mix. I also think he found out he should have already started one of the two at the end of SoS, as a build up, what he didn’t do if I remember correctly.
And I agree they should have trimmed the fat. But I wish they kept what the essence of the characters were in season 5 instead of going through the plot-point to be done with it. I couldn’t hold on where we were with the story because once you were in a part of a story it was over. For instance Tyrion being a slave. He was that for less than an episode. And we didn’t see how that effected him, he smooth talked his way through it. I personally would have want to see that part of the story more fleshed out.
I think I just have the luck that my favorite characters were heavily into Feast and Dance. Feast I had Brienne, Samwell, Cersei and Jaime. Arya is also one of my favorites but not that much. It was for me the first time I liked Sansa’s storyline and she became one of my favorites. And with Dance I had Theon and Tyrion, and Bran added to the mix.
But still for me, when I read the sample chapters of winds somehow my excitement of season 5 till 8 that I had before it, dropped. I love for instance the battle of Fire of the books, how that is portrait. It felled in the books as the biggest and best battle of the saga, and more real. Battles didn’t happen in real life in just one day most of the time, tooks days or weeks, with sieges and truces that broke etc.
Tron79,
I’m enjoying reading your updates when I find them, but I had to laugh at the idea of Dany staying in Maureen, that poor woman lol. Unfortunate typo.
Tron79,
I love reading your experiences of your journey. And you’re right about what Feast was. Are you happy with going with the Boiled Leather journey?
Funny. I was even thinking about how to spell it…
yes, I’m definitely happy being able to go back and forth between books. And as you said, there are times when you just have 5 or 6 chapters in a row in the same book and then jump over, so it’s not a constant back and forth. It had me read many more of AFFC and less chapters in ADWD so far. It does help me being a show watcher, since I have some idea of what may be coming down the road. And so far I’m mostly saying I like the way the show decided to make a few things more dramatic for the screen…
I did get to one of the companions we talked about in a different post, so I was excited when he showed up and it was again very different from the show
Also an interesting tidbit about Tommen with the age difference in the books..
So, Saturday is a lazy day for me. I’m hoping to get another 100 pages in. If I do that, I will be a whopping 1/4 of the way done at about 500 pages… That sounds so strange to say you read 500 pages but are only 1/4 into the book… So I have to forget how long it is sometimes and just settle into the chapters and not worry about the length. The next Arya chapter is still about 100 more pages away in AFFC (i think). That’s my next milestone reward… so I do count some to find out when Arya will popup again…
I’m also looking forward to LSH, and I’m hoping I get to some of her scenes today…
I kind of disagree with this:
Jon did not think Mance should die. He also doesn’t try to openly undermine Stannis for the sake of legality — the only time Jon undermines Stannis is to save Mance’s son from a cruel death via sacrifice (“The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.”)
Jon urged Stannis to spare Mance and pointed out that the free folk would never follow Stannis, only Mance. Jon also thought fire was a cruel way to die so it seemed to me it was about mercy as Jon knew he was risking Stannis’s wrath by having Mance put out of his misery. It describes Mance’s pain in quite a bit of detail and before Jon makes the decision, this passage takes place:
So I don’t think it was about Jon feeling Mance’s life belonged to the Watch. He was remembering pain right before he makes that choice to openly defy Stannis.
Jon is less hard in the show but I think he was still quite a bit about mercy in the books as well (Hardhome, the grove wildlings). Jon can be very pragmatic but I feel his inability to turn his back of people coming to him for help was a big part of his downfall.
Adrianacandle,
Humm… Good discussion, I agree with some but disagree as well with other things….see in spoilers for people who haven’t read the book yet…
“Jon Snow had seen enough. “Now,” he said.
Ulmer of the Kingswood jammed his spear into the ground, unslung his bow, and slipped a black arrow from his quiver. Sweet Donnel Hill threw back his hood to do the same. Garth Greyfeather and Bearded Ben nocked shafts, bent their bows, loosed.
One arrow took Mance Rayder in the chest, one in the gut, one in the throat. The fourth struck one of the cage’s wooden bars, and quivered for an instant before catching fire. A woman’s sobs echoed off the Wall as the wildling king slid bonelessly to the floor of his cage, wreathed in fire. “And now his Watch is done,” Jon murmured softly. Mance Rayder had been a man of the Night’s Watch once, before he changed his black cloak for one slashed with bright red silk.”
I guess since it didn’t seem as “spur of the moment” as it did in the show, I thought it was more calculated, and a large part had to do with Mance being a brother of the Night’s Watch, so it was more Jon’s decision on how he would be executed. And yes, you’re right that Jon didn’t feel that burning him alive was the right sentence.
Tron79,
I’ll use spoiler code too 🙂
I don’t really see any indication in Jon’s thoughts that he planned this. I took that quoted line as a way to honor Mance, a man who Jon genuinely liked and had admiration for, as a former member of the Watch.
It doesn’t seem like the men had their bows ready. The passage mentions that Ulmer and Donnel must put their spears down and unsling their bows, which indicates they weren’t ready to go. It also mentions the others doing the same. Archers in the Night’s Watch carry around bows, as swordsmen carry around swords (such as Jon).
While Jon tells Sam this decision should be the Watch’s, Jon’s POV accepts that it will be Stannis’s decision (though Jon disagrees with it as Jon urges Stannis to spare Mance).
As such, I believe this was a spur of the moment decision. His thoughts give no indication that he had been hoping to wrest control of this execution from Stannis by having the Watch being the one to technically give the killing blow, especially an execution Jon disagrees with and by putting Mance out of his misery quickly, Jon knows he is risking the wrath of a man who he perceives as unforgiving (which is trouble Jon doesn’t need). A legal technicality is not something Jon would risk Stannis’s wrath for, I feel?
And still, in that passage before Jon gives the order, he is focused on the pain Mance is enduring, as well as the reactions of Mance’s sister-in-law, how Ygritte would have felt, and then starts ruminating on his own guilt: the baby switch and fearing for the safety of Gilly, Sam, and the child. I don’t believe Jon would plan to openly defy Stannis in this way solely for the sake of legality — particularly since Jon knows that would be inviting trouble he doesn’t need from a man who has helped the Watch a great deal (and a man Jon finds himself supporting, despite urging himself not to as Jon knows he must be netural).
Tron79,
Actually, after some reflection…
But I struggle a bit as I don’t see indications in Jon’s thoughts that Jon planned this ahead of time or because he felt so strongly that Mance’s life was for the Watch’s to take that he’d risk Stannis’s wrath. Preventing a cruel death seems to be Jon’s motivation in both instances when he defies Stannis.
Still, I think this might have been a back-up plan if the agony became unbearable… This passage also mentions Jon has to force himself to look as he “dare not appear squeamish before his brothers.”
Adrianacandle,
I think we’re both right in some ways…
I was mostly shocked about how much different the show did that scene and how Stannis thought Jon showed bravery (in the show).
Anyway…back to reading…. I took a break for a few minutes to respond… I’m in Dany’s world at the moment….she’s not having a great time ruling Meereen..and she thinks she might be going crazy as she’s seeing visions.. Already there are more indications than they had in the show of what might be to come…
Tron79,
I commented on the “Now,” command in my October 5, 2019 2:00 PM comment to you as I revised my initial opinion somewhat 🙂
While Jon does think Mance’s fate should be up to the Watch, he does concede to this decision belonging to Stannis. But still, nothing in these passages surrounding Mance’s death indicates Jon is focusing on the legal aspects of Mance’s execution — Jon has already conceded to Stannis. Jon was focusing on the human aspects of Mance’s suffering. Jon also accepted the decision belonging to Stannis.
Additionally, I think I may agree more if Jon felt Mance’s execution was right but he does not — Jon thinks it’s a mistake so I don’t think Jon would be willing to risk Stannis’s wrath for the sake of a legality or trappings of authority, since I don’t think those are Jon’s priorities.
Jon, himself, does not go strictly by the letter of the law in all circumstances. He tries to but has also broken vows for the sake of saving lives.
As for trappings of power, Melisandre criticizes Jon in her chapter for rejecting these trappings:
——
Jon is aware of these concerns as Bowen Marsh brings them up. However, Jon doesn’t entirely agree with Marsh:
——
Well, at the end of the day, Mance still died by Stannis’s order, not Jon’s, no matter who it was who performed the killing blow. Mance was certainly going to die once the flames overtook him, arrows or no. What the arrows did was give a quick end to Mance before more prolonged agony.
Had it been up to Jon, Mance would have been spared. Not because Mance is innocent, but because Mance keeps the peace.
Jon does accept LCship as his lot in life and he does find it miserable. However, he views his duty as being to protect the realms of humanity and keep the peace, which Stannis is helping Jon to do. Stannis is one of the few who truly wishes to defend the realm, is willing to aid the Watch, and recognizes the true threat. Jon rejects the visuals of power (refusing guards, a tail of men, nicer quarters), which what I think undermining Stannis just for the sake of the Watch being the one to take Mance out would fall under. A visual of power.
This is why I don’t think it’d make sense for Jon to undermine Stannis in this way for a legal technicality, particularly when it’s an execution Jon disagrees with.
Stannis is not a happy camper with Jon here…
Dany stuff continued in next post 🙂
Yeah, Dany does fear she’s succumbing to Targaryen insanity and seems to fight against it. But it’s always a lurking fear she tries to keep at bay. And Dany’s arc seems a bit more magic-oriented in the books. She has visions in the show but the mystical aspects surrounding Dany (and Jon) seem to be greater in the text.
When you’re finished, there’s a series of essays that I’ve linked to quite a few times on here but they do a really really good job in explaining the general themes of Dany’s arc, as well as Jon’s and Tyrion’s! And this essayist predicted Dany’s dark turn based on the material in ADWD. The Dany essays were the first ones released and GRRM read them. Elio Garcia and Linda Antonsson (who work with GRRM) reported GRRM said at a Q&A that this author got it right.
When I first finished ADWD, I didn’t really enjoy the book that much. I was kind of confused because things seemed to have come out of nowhere. However, these essays did a really really nice job of tying things together.
Tron79,
About Jon:
About companion:
About Tommen:
And LSH is indeed very interesting.
Adrianacandle,
Something about your part from the books made me think about winds of winter, so I’m going to put it in spoilertags so Tron doesn’t read it.
Adrianacandle,
Also put it in spoilertags. This one Tron can read.
kevin1989,
Re:Jon/Stannis/Mance.
It seems the greater need is to keep the peace and Mance is the best chance for that. And Jon understands Mance wants to see his people safe, which is one of the things that brings Jon around to Mance. As the raiding and pillaging had been done by the wildlings to survive, survival appears to be the main concern so if Mance is convinced, there is a greater chance the wildlings will be convinced as well since they follow merit, not blood.
As I side note, I kind of love how grumpy Stannis is. And he has some of the best lines:
Adrianacandle,
I will try that. And I will give a spoilertag. And urge Tron not too read, and also not too read if you didn’t read the sample champers of Winds, except if you’re interesting in the visions Dany gets, because I have a huge theory what’s really going on here.
My second part. Euron is in some sort of blood-magic and other magical stuff. He gathered priesters of all faiths and do something with them that we don’t know. He is only missing the old gods, which are in fact the others or children of the forest, who they are is still a question. But he has gotten hold of Pyat Pree, which means one thing, Euron has been to Qarth after Dany has left. Which means he could also have gotten hold of Quaithe. And we know he has a plan to get Dany at his side.
Third. Her visions wars her about all her enemies in the future, Aegon, Dorne, Victarion etc but not Euron himself, which is odd when the visions state he will sit on the Iron Throne at a certain moment. Will she get another vision that the only one she can trust is Euron?
Now my conclusion. I think Euron has Quaithe, and is performing some kind of magic that shows her half-way around the world where she is not at, giving Dany visions about who she can’t trust. To make her paranoid, unprepared, twisted, dark etc. He will control Dany’s actions with it, Dany will defeat Euron’s enemies, and he will turn her into what he wants her to be. And I think that’s what that vision is, him controlling Dany’s mind, and shaping it how he wants it. Or he gets hold of a dragon.
Another theory I have is that Euron is heavily involved in the return of the WW. But how I can’t put any thoughts too.
But that makes more sense why Dany would become her 8×05 self.
Now another theory about “The prince who was promised.”
I still think that Jon will be the prince that was promised in the books but I think that prophecy has a twist.
But who knows what sick plottwist GRRM will come up with in winds and Dream that will blow our mind. That he kept deliberately from D&D.
Tron79,
Blah. Jon, Dany, Mance, Stannis… 💤
What I want to know is…
When do you get to your next Arya chapter!
kevin1989,
“Hannibal” the book, Thomas Harris’s follow-up to Silence of the Lambs, was beautifully written. (There’s a scene of Dr. Lecter buying china and silverware – I think – and it was described so exquisitely I re-read it multiple times and took notes so I’d know what to look for when I go shopping.)
Unfortunately, the movie version kind of sucked. Anthony Hopkins reprised his role as Dr. Lecter, and was great as always. However, Jodie Foster did not return as Clarice Starling. Instead, Julianne Moore took over the role and – was unconvincing. Plus, for some reason they changed the ending from the book, and the the conclusion they devised was unsatisfying.
I’d recommend reading the two books and watching the first film.
kevin1989,
I’m not sure GRRM deliberately kept anything from D&D but this theory both excites and saddens me. It excites me because I’m not such a big fan of GoT’s ending and, admittedly, would love for stuff to be different (although, knock on wood, what if GRRM gives me more bitter?). However, because I have low hopes we’ll ever see GRRM’s ending, it saddens me too 🙁
Yet I have seen GRRM called ‘Evil Santa’….
That would be very terrifying since I remember Euron being 100000 times scarier in the books. What Euron does to Falia Flowers is pretty terrifying and what he enables Falia to do to her family is… not so good.
Dany has a strong sense of compassion for the downtrodden and as of ADWD, still possesses noble intentions. However, if Euron ramped up Dany’s paranoia and made her so afraid, it overrides all that, it’d be very terrifying what influence he could wield. Especially as she’s still so young in the books. Falia already had some hate for her family because they were pretty jerkish to her. If Euron is able to gain control of Dany and her worst impulses — yikes. And heartbreaking since Dany fights so hard not to be this, but wants to be good.
Your TPTWP theory is fun to read and think about! I think, even if we’ve gotten a distillation of the ending, there is still a lot of room for variance.
Ten Bears,
Reading those books has always been on my list of things to do but I keep forgetting to do it!
Agreed about the movies. I really, really loved the first film, a lot because of how great the dynamic was between Foster’s Clarice and Hopkin’s Dr. Lecter. Julianne Moore didn’t do it for me as Clarice either. Her Clarice seemed like a different character from Foster’s Clarice.
This is what good books should do!
I know now not to touch suspicious, seemingly innocuous objects on the street because they could be portkeys (…. Harry Potter….)
And thanks to Harry Potter, I also know that my dad now thinks he’s a wizard who married a muggle and that’s why they got divorced.
(Said muggle was offended.)
Life lessons from books!
These spoilers in this comments are for “Winds of winter eyes only.” (couldn’t resist of adding a Arrested development reference in). Sorry Tron you can skip this comment for another time.
Adrianacandle,
I read that Essay, strangely I was thinking along the lines of that too when he made a sumary of her chapters of Dance for my little project, which I think will not be as little as I would have done before, I really enjoy cracking my brain a bit more with it. But I got to a certain chapter of Dany
Adrianacandle,
What I think will happen next is, that Dany will attack the capitol in what way I don’t know. Maybe Aegon wants to go there because Sam found out about the dragonglass, but I wonder if that will be in the books that that’s at dragonstone. But it would make sense.
And the horror of KL will happen. And in some way Dany finds out about the WW in the north, maybe because she finds the books of Sam that he left behind. Maybe she takes Sam prison and ask what he was doing there and he explained. And I think Dany will go north after that. And around that time Sam will found out who Jon is, really is.
What I think will happen next is that Bran also founds out that Aegon was the real Aegon and not a fake. Which will up the readers distaste for Dany further, and choosing Jon above her. It will also push the north against her and Dance of Dragon part 2 has his second part.
And then there is the part about Gilly’s tears of Blood, which made me think about one thing. Mel will burn her baby to resurrect Stannis when she finds the fake death letter of Ramsay.
And the reason why I love Feast and Dance a lot is that cracking the codes of the prohecys. And underlying meanings. And those 2 books are full of that. In the next part I go further with prophecies which I can tell without spoilertags.
Adrianacandle,
”(I have a friend named Clarice and all throughout grade school, people would quote the movie at her. She hated it 😀 We loved it.)”
_______
My brother, sister and I incorporated dialogue from Silence of the Lambs into our everyday lives. For instance, if we were out by the pool and my sister was applying suntan oil, my brother would channel Buffalo Bill and bark:
“It rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again.”
At a restaurant when the basket of rolls or bread and butter arrives?
First he’d affect a feminine voice and say to her: “It puts the lotion in the basket.” Then wait a few seconds and growl at her…
“Put the f*cking lotion in the basket!!!”
(To be continued with my GoT-related reply…)
Ten Bears,
I read them all. Amazing books. But I can tell you one thing. Where the show of Hannibal moves too, it’s very close to Hannibal, Hannibal rises and the Red dragon books. They did those books justice. The problem is more season 1 is based more what happened before those events, and the set-up of that story is a bit lackluster at the beginning. I had a “Why do I care about these characters” at first and I needed to get really get through the first 6 episodes (ca), until a certain episode where I saw the Hannibal of the books emerge and after that I was hooked. It’s such a shame the beginning of that show is not that great and a bit bad, but where it headed is masterfully.
And I will watch silence of the lambs sometime in the future, I always wanted to watch it, and Anthony hopkins is amazing. But the problem is more I have a certain view in my mind about the characters which will change. I already have difficulty keeping book and show as 2 different stories (like with GoT. But I manage it. But when it comes to 2 different visual versions of a story my brain has hard time keeping them out of each other. the 2 versions of Borgia’s really had my head spin, and I watch them both. And most of the time I dislike remakes because of this.
kevin1989,
I believe Mel knows who Gilly’s kid is as Val seems very certain for some reason. I think this will be why she burns Shireen per that theory you shared a little while ago. I think Gilly’s tears may be a manifestation of Jon’s guilt? Ned also saw Lyanna crying tears of blood in his dreams. Ned had to lie about Jon’s heritage to both Jon himself and Catelyn, forcing Jon to live a life of bastardy, disdained by Catelyn, while Catelyn believed Ned cheated on her and had to live with the child of that union — all to save a life from Robert’s wrath. In his final chapters, Ned angsts wishing he could talk with Jon.
What beautiful family memories! 🤣
kevin1989,
As Hannibal was developed by Bryan Fuller, have you ever seen any of his other series?
Yeah me too!!! I just now took a break, but I may get to the second Arya chapter tonight…or I might keep reading non stop until I get there!! There were 28 chapters in between with no Arya….oh my!! I’m guessing that’s why they had her sweeping so long in season 5…..
Just a teeny spoiler… I read today Bran’s chapter and he thought he saw Arya!! I had my hopes up, but it was actually LEAF from the Children of the Forest….ugg.. But it was still a good Bran chapter though…
kevin1989,
Yes, I think the essays did a good job making those connections. The fight with her dark side vs. her genuine desire for peace. And I also note that she fears her own dark side, trying not to slide into it and making active efforts to avoid and overcome it.
Also, the difference in her feelings with the crucifixion of the slavers: how she felt at the time vs. later, when confronted with the aftermath.
Once again no reading for tron when there is a spoilertag. We will protect you in the spoilers to come.
Adrianacandle,
I still think the ultimate ending is the same. Sansa will be queen of the vale (instead of the north) in the books or maybe still the north but I wonder how GRRM wants to go there.
I think Bran still becomes King but the road to it will be much different.
Jon will probably go north of the wall, or at least not be king. But I think the reason why will be different and how. Because as I state above, I don’t think Dany turning mad will be that easy explained in the books as her being a Tyrant. And it will be tied to that sick fuck I was telling above about. But how that turns out I can’t really grasp my head around it.
Stannis I think will die later in the books I think, he will fight with the WW is my guess and die there. I also think in the books when Jon is resurected in the books that nobody knew he was dead.
And I think Arya will also explore the world in the end.
And yes I think GRRM will go that way, that Dany loses to her impulses because of Euron. Which make it a bittersweet ending in the end. We only want Dany to die because there is no turning back. Not anymore. But we know what really happened to her and how it happened.
And about Euron I think Euron was also a former 3ER candidate if I interpret his moments from his childhood. That could mean he is a greenseer himself. Which makes him also have a connection to Ice and Fire. And what do we get when Ice and Fire combines? Water. Which could also mean that Euron is in fact the last enemy to be defeated. He is the water part.
George why do you do this to me, cracking my brain that much.
Adrianacandle,
And that’s also the possibility that she kills Shireen directly. But I wonder what will happen later on when Stannis dies again. Or maybe Stannis kills Mel, she already lied to him about Mance what if he finds out.
To add about the endgame, about ice and fire = water. It made me think about a certain theme that is happening a lot in the books, the question what’s below the sea.
[i] Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers
I know, I know, oh, oh, oh
It is always summer under the sea
The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed
I know, I know, oh, oh, oh
Under the sea, it snows up and the rain is dry as bone
I know, I know, oh, oh, oh
Clever bird, clever man, clever clever fool
Oh, clever clever clever fool
The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord
The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord
The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord
The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord
Under the sea, you fall up
I know, I know, oh, oh, oh
The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord
Here we eat fish
Under the sea, the fish eat us
I know, I know, oh, oh, oh
Under the sea, no one wears hats
I know, I know, oh, oh, oh [i]
I hope I did it right to make the song go italic.
kevin1989,
Then again, maybe this will happen and maybe GRRM has a way to make it work!
But I’m 99% certain Bran becomes king, which I don’t love because it seems to come out of nowhere but if there’s build-up, that’d feel better.
I agree that Dany’s turn will likely be more nuanced.
I don’t think can handle Melisandre burning both little Aemon and Shireen 🙁 🙁 🙁
Agreed about Arya! And how Euron is so much more terrifying.
But interesting connections with water and Euron representing water. I’m not sure it’ll go down that way but I really enjoy reading your theories!
Those lyrics reminded me of a video Alt Shift X did on Patchface you might like to see!
(Oh, to get italics, use angle brackets like what’s used in basic, basic HTML code instead of the square brackets)
Adrianacandle,
”I did love Silence of the Lambs. Nobody was able to replace Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins for me.”
________
Who would’ve known that Dr. Lecter was a graduate of The House of Black and White? Or that like Arya he learned to be a Faceless Man?
I’m taking about the scene in the movie after Dr. Lecter
While the guard brings in the dinner tray and looks for a place to set it down, Lecter picks the lock on his handcuffs, slams the cage door on the cop’s head, blinds him with his own mace spray, and then calmly bashes in the cop’s skull with his own baton.
Oops. I didn’t mean to drone on and on detailing the scene’s set-up. Anyway, as you know, what happens is…
A few scenes later, in the back of the ambulance, the EMT is stunned when “Pembry” sits up and peels off his own face to reveal it’s really Lecter.
Poll: Who did it better?
🔘 Arya -Walder Frey
🔘 Lecter – Sgt. Pembry
Ten Bears,
Tough call but I’m going to go with….. Arya! Took out more people, got to cross off some names on her list, efficient day 😉
(And I remember that scene. When I first saw it, my face was 😱 just like the Edvard Munch painting….)
Adrianacandle,
I only watches heroes where he was part of. But that was not really a great show, but fun to watch.
Tron79,
Leaf him be 😉
What happened in that chapter, where did it end with?
Adrianacandle,
That’s why Dany is so interesting. She is constantly in conflict with herself.
kevin1989,
Omg, he did work on Heroes! I really liked the first season of that show. I did not like
Bryan Fuller did some other shows, which are more of the quirky, dry-humour mystery type. Dead Like Me was probably my faourite (girl gets killed, is chosen to be one of the many grim reapers surrounding us as part of the “middle management” of death), followed by Wonderfalls (overeducated, underemployed disaffected Gen-Y girl who hears inanimate objects start telling her to do things in order to prevent unknown disaster), and Pushing Daisies (pie-maker who is able to bring corpses back to life for five minutes with a first touch of life and if he doesn’t give them the second touch of death again before five minutes is up, somebody else dies in that person’s place. Makes pies out of resurrected rotten fruit). You might be interested! 🙂
Adrianacandle,
And me neither, I already feel sick in my stomach what she did with Shireen. So I hope not.
I read also a theory couple of days ago that Stannis will lose his first battle against Ramsay but that he will fake his death and hide somewhere.
https://www.quora.com/What-do-you-think-will-happen-in-Stannis-s-Battle-in-the-Ice-in-the-Winds-of-Winter
I found this idea very interesting.
And thank you.
Regarding LEAF…
But Jojen is still alive as far as I can tell! Summer also helped out a ton to save Bran again…good boy…
Ten Bears,
Easy one of course. Frey Pie wins all the time.
Adrianacandle,
Yeah Heroes became dull after that. And I loved season 4 of Heroes but I hated it at the same time because it tried to do a Heroes version of the show Carnivale, which is one of the best shows ever made in my opinion. Such a shame it got cancelled.
And that show sounds horrifying. Or is it more lightly?
kevin1989,
Right, that’s the tricky part. Sansa’s storyline in season 5 diverges so much from where it left off in the books (ie. it’s Jeyne Poole posing as Arya who is forced to marry Ramsay, not Sansa) so I don’t know where Sansa is going to end up or how Harry the Heir plays into it. Or when Sansa goes north. In season 5, Sansa and Theon escape Winterfell together and Castle Black is the only place they can really go. However, in book 6, there is no real urgency getting Sansa to Castle Black so I don’t know when Jon and Sansa’s storylines will join up.
And thanks for the link, I’ll check it out!
Tron79,
and how many chapters till you’re next Arya chapter? Did you already got a Theon chapter?
I just counted and I still have about 140 pages to go in AFFC before Arya II and I still have some chapters in between from ADWD added to that… but I am over the 500 page mark now (combined pages)… I may get another 50 pages or so read tonight.. And yes, I did get to poor Theon….
I did enjoy the second half of season 3 (volume 4) and I wished to have seen a full season of that because it was an interesting idea and something Nathan would totally do
Definitely light-hearted! More on the quirky comedy side of things with a dash of drama. Sort of modern fairy-tales, especially in the case of Pushing Daisies.
“I make pies and wake the dead. I live a very sheltered life.”
(PS: I forgot, Kristin Chenoweth — ie. the perfect Glinda from Wicked — is in Pushing Daisies!!! AND SINGS.)
Tron79,
If I ever read the books (i.e., as soon as the Big Kahuna throws in the towel and publicly acknowledges he’s not going to finish TWOW and ADOS), I had planned on following your lead and trying the reconfigured Boiled Leather version.
I may go with the Filleted Chicken version instead: All Arya POV chapters + all chapters mentioning Sandor + all chapters mentioning Arya + any scenes in which either appears.
Is Sandor even in the books after Book 3? It’s my understanding that in the books, after Arya left Sandor for dead, the only mention of the Hound was some cryptic comment to Brienne by Septon Meribald or or some Elder Brother guy that the Hound is dead and Sandor Clegane is at rest; an allusion to Sandor’s tormented psyche prefacing the famous “Broken Man” speech; and some subtle hints that the novice at the monastery seen digging graves is Sandor. (Presumably, Sandor burying Rabbit Stew Sally in S7e1 impliedly confirmed book readers’ “gravedigger theory.”)
To be candid, I’m apprehensive about committing to read past the third of the five books already published. The consensus from the comments I’ve read here is that there was a steep drop off in quality after Book 3, with lots of filler, pointless travelogues, and plot detours; and extraneous characters are introduced while the main characters tread water or disappear for hundreds of pages at a time.
For instance, from what I glean in Book 4 or 5 there’s a new character introduced named Quentyn Martell, a homely fellow who for some reason was tasked with enticing the Dragon Queen to be his bride. From what I gather, Quentyn’s story line amounted to: (1) Travel to Mereen. (2) Get rejected by Dany. (3) Get roasted by a dragon. (4) Die. (5) The End.
Not quite the spellbinding page-turner, is it?
(To be cont.?)
Tron79,
Out of curiosity… have you ever watched the Dr. Who episodes guest-starring Maisie Williams?
Ten Bears,
Well. I have to say I seem to be reading these last two books faster. I’ll have to figure out if GRRM’s writing style changed at all. Yes i think you will enjoy the first three with Arya action. There are lots of Arya chapters in storm of swords. So far Sandor is mainly the talk of sailor rumors in the first 1/4 of the last two books. It would be interesting to just read all of the POV chapters together but for me, getting to the next Arya chapter really keeps me going and so far the Arya chapter I did get too is awesome. So perhaps for Arya it’s quality and not quantity in these last two books. I don’t feel bogged down at all yet though. Well I was getting a little tired of spending so much time with Davos earlier today but really I just love getting to know more about the characters with so many details that aren’t in the show. Some is the same and some is better in the show for drama. But so far it’s been a great journey. And even better when I get to the next Arya chapter. It won’t be today. Too many pages left to go and I’m not going to cheat and just skip to it. It will be a great reward for spending so much time with Davos and his cut off fingers.
Catspaw Assassin,
I’m still waiting for the shewolves of Winterfell. : (
Yes and yes again. I even used them in a theology class I taught for high schoolers. It was a class mostly using Star Trek episodes but I had to use those Maisie episodes. It fit right in teaching about memories. We have something called the Yiskor service where we remember those who have passed away. Maisie was awesome and her episodes had some great discussion material too. Of course I would have made it work somehow 😮
Tron79,
I just realized, in my replies to you, I’d repeat the same thing several times in the same paragraph — I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to do that! Whenever that happens, it’s because I’ve rearranged my sentences with copy and paste from a previous paragraph I’ve written but scrapped. Consequently, I’ve unintentionally repeated the same thing (gulp) three times in one paragraph.
I apologize for that 🙁
No problem. I just had one of those WOAH! moments. I’ve been taking notes throughout my read for things that are different in the show/books and my reaction, but don’t spoil this one for others, but there is something different about Jon/Sam/Gilly that just blew me away that’s not in the show. Jon is definitely more strategic in the book. That’s all I will say…I wrote WHOAH WHOAH OMG at the end of a Samwell chapter…Signing off for tonight.
Tron79,
Have a good night!!
For when you return…. (IF you’ve read Jon II/Chapter 7, ADWD!)
Yes, that’s definitely the harshest thing Jon does in the books and he really forces Gilly’s hand there, he gives her absolutely no choice and it’s really brutal. It is strategic as it removes incentive for Melisandre to burn a baby as Jon is sure Stannis wouldn’t harm Gilly’s baby as he has no king’s blood — but per a theory Kevin shared in another thread, this may end up backfiring on him if Melisandre seeks another child with king’s blood (not Gilly’s son or Mance’s son) to sacrifice, a child nobody thinks is at risk from Melisandre. So Gilly’s suffering and Jon risking his neck with Stannis may all be for nothing.
There’s also this. Adam Feldman of the essays I was talking about earlier has this assessment about the Jon’s moral goal but the risks it poses:
Which I agree with. While Jon’s goal is to make it so both babies are alive, this action may end up putting the Watch and Jon’s life at risk. It’s a strategy to prevent child sacrifice and foil any plans Melisandre may have to burn innocents but it’s not a strategy to benefit the Watch. Stannis will be pissed if he finds out Jon spirited one of his captives (Mance’s son) away from the Wall.
And there’s the question of how much Aemon had to do with it. Aemon is the one who warns Jon that this is a real concern and it’s not something to be dismissed:
This second-to-last interaction between Sam and Jon (re:Sam and Aemon’s voyage with Gilly):
And the following passage where Jon ruminates on these plans the morning he is about to see Sam, Aemon, and Gilly off:
I hate to cut for length but it’s where Maester Aemon is giving Jon the “kill the boy and let the man be born” advice 🙂
But anyway, there’s speculation at how of a hand Aemon had in this. Aemon definitely warned Jon to take king’s blood seriously and I think he knew something but I’m not sure to what extent.
Saturday 10:37 PM
Forgive me for quoting my own prior rant about the misuse, abuse, and overuse of “literally.”. Selfishly, I want it to serve as a reminder to whinge about another “Stannis-sized peeve” I’ve got. I just have to find the illustrative example that I cut and pasted recently. (The perpetrator was a self-righteous U.S. Senator who should know better.)
P.S. I don’t profess to be the Master of Grammar. I wasn’t even aware of the “less” vs. “fewer” distinction until The One True King schooled me. (Incidentally, wasnt it great that for one word, “fewer,” Stannis/Stephen Dillane Funniest Line in the S5 Watchersonthewall Awards? 😊)
How did I miss this?? Your rant spoke to my heart! I hate the misuse of literally! It’s now become a word people use to emphasize their point, leaving the word ‘literally’ to have virtually no meaning and what do we use in its place when we’re talking about a (excuse me) literal meaning?
Because if somebody says they’re literally going to explode, I better see the early signs of combustion in their body.
And it also reminds me of this video (and now I can’t hear it any other way) — he has a YouTube series called ‘Your Grammar Sucks’ (YGS):
Adrianacandle,
I’m a fan of his, it did make laugh watching his videos through S8, you could almost hear him becoming more and more exasperated as the show went on lol. For a deep lore guy, it must have been tough to see it all stripped out.
He did a great video about the 3ER, which of course connects to Bran.
Having watched it, I am so confused as to how and why Bran becomes King, how can it possibly be a good thing? Is it even Bran? This is my major major hang up about S8. Either GRRM didn’t tell them the reason or it was too complicated to adapt. Having the best story isn’t the answer.
Ten Bears,
“I may go with the Filleted Chicken version instead: All Arya POV chapters + all chapters mentioning Sandor + all chapters mentioning Arya + any scenes in which either appears.”
Well this method would be targeted!
The way the book is made you can certainly do that, because you know the story from GOT and because so many things are discussed here that you also know the rest of it (the changes book to screen, what’s not on screen and the extra characters that appear in the book).
I suppose that this is a way to read the book if one has already read it once (I’m currently reading Jon, I’ll continue with Dany).
But I warn you that it will probably lead you to read the entire thing, lol.
You need to keep in mind that Sandor is not POV though and we still don’t know whether he’s alive or not in the books.
Also this:
“To be candid, I’m apprehensive about committing to read past the third of the five books already published. The consensus from the comments I’ve read here is that there was a steep drop off in quality after Book 3, with lots of filler, pointless travelogues, and plot detours; and extraneous characters are introduced while the main characters tread water or disappear for hundreds of pages at a time.”
I suppose it depends on what one means by ‘quality’ and ‘filler’. Personally I enjoy a good narrative and there’s lots of it in the last book. I was more perplexed with Brienne’s and Tyrion’s journeys rather than anything else. But I was thrilled with the “northern conspiracy” as they called it, which involves many POVs, Jon, Davos, Melissandre, Theon, even Asha (Yara) which are all very narrative POVs as we’re in their heads as readers and this shows us what Stannis/the Boltons/Wyman Manderly are doing. Glimpses of it are found even in Sansa’s and Arya’s POVs. Indirectly this connects to Kings Landing a bit while the stories of Brienne/Jamie and the northern conspiracy might converge in the next book. It’s slow, but for me it’s honestly very exciting.
Quentyn.
Poor Quentyn! He has one or two chapters in the entire book. His journey and his role is the subject of another POV and is connected to Doran’s, Arianne’s and Jon Connington’s POVs, where the Dornish conspiracy and F!Aegon’s story unfold. Their purpose will be clear in WoW.
Quaithe has warned Dany that people will try to steal her dragons. Quentyn was the first who tried and failed. F!Aegon will probably be next (sorry, Kevin!). The entire thing is designed to make Dany suspicious to strangers, I suppose. But in fairytales things (tropes) work in threes, so when Jon appears Dany won’t be that cooperative (pretty much like the show, lol). Perhaps it’ll lead him to steal her dragon. Or him succeding where others failed will make her fall madly in love with him and trust him blindly.
Dany in the books is very susceptible to prophecies, and she thinks a lot about her destiny and the prophecies she has received at the HotU (especially the three treasons prophecy), so there’s a good chance that when Jon appears she’ll either think it’s “destiny”, or she’ll reject any chance of cooperation because she won’t believe that anybody’s worthy of her and her dragons. But no matter which way it goes it seems that it is connected to her “treason for love” because the third dragon claimant is Jon and we know what happens with Jon (he’ll be literally her third “mount to love”).
I know people are expecting a clear-cut adventure in ASOIAF, but it’s not. It’s a long story that contains significant ‘landmarks’; it’s a fairytale with dragons, witches, princes-princesses, kings-queens, wannabe kings and queens. What makes it so particular is that the final ending of the heros is built up very explicitly, gradually, step by step, and the reader gets to see that (and ADWD with AFFC are perhaps the cornerstone of the ending’s structure); all the POVs and the long narratives and the story itself with its many turns and halts leads to the ending of the six or seven main POVs (the Starks, Dany, Tyrion, Jamie, Cersei) so that in the end the conclusion will be complete and well deserved. That’s the literary value of the book.
PS. LOL. I believe I used ‘literally’ quite well here. “mount to bed, mount to dread, mount to love”. I can even make it a picture in my head (the show helps); she’ll mount Jon.
I’m still struggling with ‘farther’ and ‘further’ though; as English is not my native language, Stannis tends to pop up every now and then.
Jenny,
“I am so confused as to how and why Bran becomes King, how can it possibly be a good thing? Is it even Bran? This is my major major hang up about S8. Either GRRM didn’t tell them the reason or it was too complicated to adapt. Having the best story isn’t the answer.”
I was very hesitant about commenting on this article and Martin’s new interview. It seems to me that he has decided that some things he has said in the past may relate to the ending of GOT, so he repeats them here without saying anything new in reality.
The general impression I get from this is that the Q-ratings and HBO’s interferring either for the sake of the Q-ratings or/and various other reasons affected the final ending of the show.
That being said, I also think that D&D stayed true to the “major beats” of the ending, as has been said, but that doesn’t include the ending of the characters (apart from Dany), but the story per se. Where the characters ended in the show seems to be a result of these Q-ratings, and this last interview seems to point to that (otherwise why bring them up again?)
I don’t think that there’s much chance for Bran to be king of the Six Kingdoms in the books (unless Jon gives up his claim in which case choosing a king from the king’s family makes sense, something which was completely discarded in the show). But even in the show Bran goes to the heart tree to wait for the Night King, so how can he be away from the weirwoods of the North for the rest of his life? It doesn’t make sense. Bran is the king of Winter, he needs to be in the North and there’s absolutely no foreshadow for him that he’ll end up in KL.
So I’m still hopeful that the books will be much better and the ending will be significantly different.
Efi,
I think he is trying to keep some things to himself, he can’t get into detail without spoiling too much of his own story. He has chosen his words carefully and is sticking to them. He gave an interview to the Guardian a while back, and the interviewer was told not to ask about the show, maybe he is getting sick of it, but I can’t feel too bad for him, he keeps going to these events and giving talks, of course people want to know.
I don’t really know anything about Q-ratings, I’d never heard of it before GRRM mentioned it. So this is a total guess from me. Everyone thinks the Q-rating refers to Bronn, but perhaps it refers to Cersei, Tyrion, and Dany, they were the stars of the show and they were pretty much always there. Dany is S2 springs to mind, of course the Dragon Lady needs to be in the full season. Tywin and Arya scenes were created to give them something to do, Cersei and Jaime living until the end of S8 is another, they couldn’t get rid of Lena and NCW.
I do believe that Bran is going to be King, but his story leading to that conclusion appears to have been cut. In the books, GRRM has got a lot of work to do to get Bran out of his current situation with his powers and some semblance of himself in tact.
I actually just saw this quote and had a bit of a eureka moment,
“Let the three of you call for a Great Council, such as the realm has not seen for a hundred years. We will send to Winterfell, so Bran may tell his tale and all men may know the Lannisters for the true usurpers. Let the assembled lords of the Seven Kingdoms choose who shall rule them.” Catelyn IV, A Clash of Kings.
Foreshadowing to the great council at least?
Tron79,
Already over a fourth of the books. And yes poor Theon 🙁 I don’t know what’s worse, seeing him getting tortured or his thoughts that you get in the books.
Adrianacandle,
that’s because the second part of season 3, Bryan Fuller was back again.
And I will look at the trailer today 😀
I have watched it, I liked her part.
Tron79,
Where is Davos at the moment?
Adrianacandle,
That video literally annoyed me to my core. 😉
Adrianacandle,
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Just curious, how many re-reads have you done? You really know the book well. I have an advantage of just reading these chapters and you recall them just as well as me and probably haven’t read them in awhile.
Thanks for the link to the essays. I’ll definitely check those out when my book journey has concluded.
Yes, you are correct at guessing which scene I was referring to… I am thrilled that I still have some major moments that I didn’t expect to happen. I have things in my head from the show that I figure may eventually happen, but when there are striking differences it’s a shocker (in a good way).
So, my last Bran chapter was his ending in season 4. It does look like there is one more Bran chapter eventually, so I wonder if any of that chapter was used in season 6 or whether there’s something else in there. It will be interesting..
I’m having a hard time thinking of Brienne as ugly. The book keeps saying how ugly she is, and Gwendoline Christie is definitely not ugly. I keep seeing her smile in “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” I spent alot of time with Brienne yesterday (her chapters). Brienne has quite a few chapters in AFFC and ADWD.
Going back to this thread, I wonder if TWOW will be 2000+ pages with as long as he’s been writing. I haven’t read far enough yet in my boiled leather journey to see where GRRM paints himself into a corner. I’m not sure if GRRM is just scratching his head trying to figure out where to go next or whether he just keeps writing more and more chapters about these characters and hasn’t brought them together yet…hummm… As he said there are a number of characters that are dead in the show but still living in the books, so his journey to the end is likely to be a very different one, even if the plot points are somewhat similar.
I wasn’t as bugged as most about Bran ending up as king, since he was just a figurehead. He wasn’t a dangerous king or queen who was going to plot to kill people to keep power. He was going to spend time in his room doing virtual reality games going on a Bill and Ted history adventure while the others took care of the details of ruling the realm… If anything I was bugged by Tyrion coming out on top. I didn’t see living as HOTK as a sentence. Tyrion did some of the most awful things. I am bugged mostly by him strangling Shae and then still being seen as a positive character. I wasn’t as bugged with him killing Tywin. But even though Shae betrayed him, I just can’t get over the fact that he horribly strangled her. After that point, I wasn’t amused by Tyrion any longer, and it’s hard for me to see him as the main person who makes the decisions for the new realm. His jokes just stopped being funny. There are soap operas where characters do horrible things and are later redeemed, but murdering Shae was beyond horrible and to me was not redeemable.
Jenny,
I don’t have time to watch 20 minute video. Can you give me a short written version of his story. I’m very curious.
Efi,
Agree with your opinion about book 4 and 5.
Efi,
I think the Q-rating also is referring to Cersei. Because I think she will not outlive the sixth book.
I also think it refers to Dany. That she was more on screen than was needed (5 and 6) and other storylines got less screentime because of it. But who knows what GRRM really was talking about. I have literally no idea about it 😉
About Bran, what if George only said. Bran will be king, Sansa will be queen. And in the books it’s Bran being king in the north and Sansa being queen of the 6th kingdoms. Or what you suggest he will be king beyond the wall.
Jenny,
Nice foreshadowing.
And agree about the Q-ratings. But I don’t agree with a certain assessment. And that’s that Dany needed to be in a whole season in season 2. Because I watch a lot of series and sometimes a important character left the story for a couple of episodes. For instance in LOST season 3, 2 fan favorites Jack and Locke both missed a huge amount of episodes after each other. Jack missed 3 episodes. Locke missed 5 episodes, and Locke was the one which had the most fans. But it didn’t bother the locke-fans because the rest of the story was exciting to watch. Just make sure when she was on screen, Dany’s storyline would be amazing.
Always make the best version of the story, not the best version of the Q-ratings. Because once the show is over, people are not talking anymore about the Q-ratings, but about the story as a whole. They will bingewatch the show, so if a certain fan-favorite is in less episodes it wouldn’t mind because they will get there shortly. And than the talk about the whole story will emerge. I’m not a fan of Q-ratings. And I’m happy that certain movie/serie makers doesn’t concern with them. Peter Jackson, David Lynch (Twin Peaks), they just tell the best possible story they can tell.
Tron79,
Your right, Gwen is by far Ugly.
As for George, I think it’s more too do how he writes his books. He really delves into the mind of a character, that’s why he will write half a book of a certain character first than the next. That’s why Every character has his own “Style”. And I think that becomes difficult when your not that young anymore, and with that many POVs. And I think that’s the real problem, if he wants to write Dany, it needs to be Dany, not a trace of Arya in it for instance.
And about Tyrion, I agree about the jokes. But the funny thing is, in the show Shae really loved Tyrion, so that was his biggest crime as you suggest, but in the books it’s very different. Shae was never for love in the books, she was a golddigger. So in the books I felt nothing bad for her death. But his actions in Dance were many times horrible even when not really see directly on the page. How he treat the cheesemonger’s courtesans for instance. or this you only must read he meets with Jorah so I know you are past that part.
Well, I wouldn’t have minded Arya creeping into to Dany’s chapters! I’m not sure if I’ll have enough reading time today, but I edged a little closer to chapter Arya II last night…
I think there could be a whole discussion just about Tyrion/prostitutes, and his first wife Tysha who has a different back story in the books. For those psychiatrists out there, you have to go back to Tysha to understand Tyrion. But that’s part of what didn’t fit for me about killing Shae… For me it was more a discussion about the ending. Some here were really bugged by Bran ending up on the throne, but I was still more bugged by Tyrion ending up as HOTK.
Tron79,
”I wasn’t as bugged as most about Bran ending up as king, since he was just a figurehead. He wasn’t a dangerous king or queen who was going to plot to kill people to keep power….”
______
My major gripe was that there was really nothing to foreshadow or build up to Bran becoming king.
It wasn’t until midway through the 73rd of 73 episodes that out of the blue, Tyrion nominates him, then Bran smirks “Why do you think I came all this way”, and then the guy he himself identified as “the heir to the Iron Throne” has to kneel before his birdbrain brother and call him “Your Grace”?
Had there been some logical progression or hints along the way that Bran could wind up on the top rung of the ladder, it wouldn’t have seemed so jarring. Well, that and some rationale other than having the supposed “best story” – another WTF? moment for viewers. (Perhaps if we’d been shown even a snippet of Tyrion’s pre-Long Night interview of Bran in S8e2 … but that scene abruptly ended.)
We’ve been through this discussion before: Who had the “best story”? Probably just about anyone else sitting there at the dragonpit summit, not to mention the absent Jon Snow aka Aegon Targaryen. I cannot think of any leadership qualities or character attributes that qualified Bran to be king.
The whole thing came off as a doofus ex machina.
Jenny,
Me too! And yes! I think it started around The Long Night. He had all of these theories, he seemed so pumped and then… the Long Night seemed to be just another battle against just another foe with no real exploration or answer to the mysticism/prophecies/build-up surrounding it. We never learn why the NK wants to annihilate humanity, the TPTWP prophecy theories dissolved into dust, and while Alt Shift X has always tried to find sense in and positivity about the show, he made this video in response to how the threat of the Others/White Walkers ended in the show.
I really love his Three-Eyed Raven video too! I love all his videos 🙂 They do give really nice, concise explanations to even the most involved, intricate theories.
Though I think Bran will become king and that’s a GRRM thing, I share these feelings. And I think part of the reason is because GRRM maybe hasn’t figured it all out himself. Or maybe it is too complicated to adapt. In the show, this is a character who was written out for all of season 5.
I’ve seen some longtime ASOIAF essayists make compelling cases for it upon the conclusion of the show, but I think (hope) there will be more build-up to it in the books. I remember this one comment and I can’t remember who said it: that maybe ASOIAF is a story about how this kid becomes king. He’s the got the first main POV chapter in the books that may have bits foreshadowing the ending and there’s also this August 8 Harper Voyage UK tweet reporting GRRM’s live Q&A seems to indicate Bran, of all people, is the protagonist:
(If anyone wants the link, tell me! I think I’m only allowed one link per post)
Myself, I struggle with seeing a reason why D&D would make Bran king if it didn’t come from GRRM. Bran’s not a terribly popular character, book or show, and it left a lot of people scratching their heads from what I can see. But I don’t love it…
Ten Bears,
Cutting scenes mid conversation wound me up in S8. I started to question their motives, basically if they showed the conversation, we would be able to guess the end and they wanted to surprise us. Either that or they couldn’t be bothered, I don’t know which is worse. Either way I felt manipulated, and it was irritating in the extreme.
Tron79,
Book Tyrion is indeed in need of punishment, and I can only imagine what he will do to contribute to the destruction of KL. Show Tyrion suddenly became an inept pacifist, if nothing else that should rule him out of the job. I think he should be put on clean up duty for supporting/encouraging Dany, but not as Hand, it’s the job he always wanted. I think it’s supposed to ironic that he finally got the job when he didn’t want it anymore, but it doesn’t feel like much of a punishment, especially when he is much worse in the books. Perhaps he will get cold feet in the next book and start trying to back pedal, that could make it feel more deserved. I’d give him a spade and tell him to get on with fixing the mess. He certainly shouldn’t be nominating Kings!
Tron79,
Thank you for your thoughtful commentary! I’ve been enjoying following along with your book journey!
I started the books back in April 2011, the day after the first episode premiered because I really needed something to read on trains and in cafes while doing my internship overseas. There are some chapters I know better than others, chapters I’ve reread way more than others but some of my recall, which isn’t great at times because sometimes stuff melds together, is due to a form of OCD I have that is focused on memory and words. For example, if I read something and I’m reminded of it later, I need to know where it comes from and I need to reread it to “prove” it happened (that my memory is not tricking me) or I will spend days in a state of hysteria looking for that text — which is the compulsion part of the OCD. As a result, to cope with this, I do a lot of bookmarking, indexing, I have the books in digital format, and I save many articles/pages in tagged searchable PDF documents on my computer. In relation to ASOIAF/GoT, I have 50, 891 PDF documents and counting T___T 😰😰😰😰😰I’ll also save this thread…
And now that I’ve revealed to everyone how yikes I am….
Yes! Personally, I think Maester Aemon helped Jon with these plans as he was pretty firm with Jon about king’s blood and he’s the reason why Jon is taking it so seriously but I’m not certain.
I think the end of Bran’s story in season 4 is an adaptation of Bran II, ADWD. Where Bran’s party is attacked and they flee into the tree-cave. The main difference, I believe, is that Jojen isn’t killed by the wight attack.
There’s also this lovely theory that Bran might be partaking in some Jojen paste! Yikes.
I agree about Brienne. It’s hard for me to think of Brienne as ugly too, especially since Gwendoline Christie, but in the books, I recall that Jaime thinks she has “astonishing eyes”.
I think he might be stuck with how to bring all of the many, many plots, threads, and many characters he’s set up to a conclusion. I think what we’ve seen in the show is a distilled version of what will happen — the basics of what will happen — but I think the characters who are still alive in the books/exist only in the books will make a significant impact on how these things come together, resulting in some big variations between book and show.
That’s right! I remember people back on Television Without Pity praising Bryan Fuller’s return as making the difference!
If it’s your kind of style, Pushing Daisies is a great show! And if so, I also recommend two other Bryan Fuller classics: Dead Like Me and Wonderfalls 🙂 Dead Like Me went on for two seasons before it got cancelled (and a movie!). Wonderfalls only lasted for 13 episodes, half of which never aired on TV (but they were all eventually released).
Adrianacandle,
Oh if you have links to any essay’s about Bran I would love to read them! I really want to go in on this plot point, because its the one I don’t understand. Yeah, its definitely a GRRM thing, nobody else would have thought to put him on the throne, they were told to do it. But iirc, GRRM told them in S3/4 and then left, so D&D didn’t have much to go on after that and probably didn’t get anything more concrete from GRRM.
I find myself thinking, what is GRRM trying to say about society and the transfer of/quest for power? What is the moral of the tale if you will? I just don’t know, the show would have us believe that those who seek power are the least suitable for it, is that it? He’s a fan of LoTR and I’m sure people could go on and on about why Frodo was able to bear the burden of the ring, and what happens when people try to assert their power over others. Hope versus despair. Gollum was pitied and allowed to live, and everyone benefited from that choice. With Bran, I got nothing. I understand the democratic vote, that’s fine, but why him in particular?
Yeah, I think that’s part of the problem. I think GRRM gave them a bare-bones outline of what he intended to do but D&D had to fill in the blanks.
There’s this essay on Reddit from Adam Feldman! A lot of it hurts my heart but he makes a good case.
Yeah, I agree. I wasn’t moved. I’m still not moved by the prospect of Bran becoming king in the books.
There was something Alt Shift X said in one of his Q&A livestreams of the final episode. While examining Bran as king and going over the benefits of having a non-emotional, unattached character become king (no conflict of interest), he said, “It’s also like a profoundly depressing nihilistic message, right, like the only way humans can succeed is to be not human.” Now, he does say he doesn’t think GRRM is trying to say this! But to me, it kind of says this 😉
Adrianacandle,
That would actually answer my questions, because that at least would be GRRM saying something, however depressing it may be (I don’t really believe it either). Do you know who else was steadfast and ‘fair’? Ned and Stannis. Worked a treat for them didn’t it? lol Perhaps emotionless Bran would have gone straight to Robert instead of parleying with Cersei. Stannis certainly would. Perhaps that is the difference. Stannis was ‘just’ but he had a little problem with religious fanaticism, Ned was too honourable and trusted others to behave in the same way. They both had fatal flaws, and Bran doesn’t.
Thanks for the link, I might have to get into these things on Reddit, there must be a lot of in depth analysis on there. I like posting on here sometimes, I feel like I’m just thinking out loud.
Jenny,
Dany was not in all episodes of Season 2. THAT was Tyrion. She wasnt in what is dead is may never die and blackwater
Tron79,
”His [Tyrion’s] jokes just stopped being funny.”
_______
For me, that was particularly disappointing after enjoying his witticisms and one-liners in S1-S4. While Tyrion still had a few zingers in the final seasons, too often his “jokes” fell flat.
Here’s what really bothered me:
• Repeatedly resorting to “c*ck”, “c*ckless”, “no c*ck” and other variants. (This applies to Bronn. as well as Tyrion.) Instead of witty repartee and actual jokes with wicked punchlines as in earlier seasons, it seemed the scriptwriter(s) assumed that a character simply uttering a “c-word” would automatically generate a laugh.
A particularly cringeworthy example of this was the exchange between Bronn and Jaime at the beginning of S7e7 as they looked at the assembled Unsullied army. Repetitive dialogue injected with lines like “not without a c*ck you don’t” and “it’s all about c*cks” made me wince, not laugh. Similarly, Tyrion reminding Varys he had no c*ck was grating, not humorous.
• Tyrion’s “jackass and honeycomb into a brothel” story. Twice before, at his trial in the Vale and later in Mereen, Tyrion had been interrupted before he could deliver the punchline. Fine.
Bringing it up again a third time in the final episode should have revealed the punchline. That didn’t happen. Tyrion uttering the same line again was not funny. Re-telling the same “joke” without delivering the payoff was, in my view, a waste of screen time. Whether intended or not, it was an implicit “F*ck you ” to the audience.
I miss the Tyrion of S1 who talked his way out of death at the hands of the Hill Tribes by responding to “How would you like to die, Tyrion son of Tywin?” with a well-timed quip. I miss the Tyrion of S2 who used his superior intellect to ensnare pompous Lancel and extort him into becoming a double agent.* I miss the Tyrion who dispatched Janos Slynt with the first-degree burn: “I’m not questioning your honor… I’m denying its existence.”
* Voted #1 All-Time Favorite Tyrion Scene. By me.
Jenny,
Right! In the books, I don’t think Stannis is religious, he seems to have lost faith in the gods (believing them to be fake or cruel) because of what happened to his mother and father drowning at sea, but he is relying on Melisandre’s power to get the throne and believes in her power. I wonder if Stannis is starting to believe more and more in R’hllor as time goes on because he has witnessed Melisandre wield this power? However, based on his comments of gods (though I may be missing something), I don’t think Stannis has much faith in R’hllor in a religious/devout sense as Melisandre does, only in his power.
I agree that, in his non-emotional state, Bran wouldn’t be subject to those emotional pitfalls other characters would be.
It is a great place to mine for analysis and theories! But (in my opinion) and especially in the post-finale backlash, comments can get a bit toxic. I hope that settles down eventually but sometimes, I think it’s getting even more extreme as time goes on.
Literally. ;D
Can we have a moratorium on “bittersweet” and “literally” ?
Ten Bears,
Yes, I also like Tyrion’s Hill Tribe quick thinking the best.
In seasons 7 and 8, I wasn’t paying attention to Tyrion’s humor. As you say most wasn’t funny. I was paying attention to the fact that he was looking at a world the way he wanted it to be instead of the way Sandor would look at it (the way things are) Tyrion was delusional thinking Cersei would bring her army north. He was delusional thinking he could serve as Dany’s HOTQ while also keeping his family safe (Cersei and Jaime). He was delusional suggesting that Jon should go beyond the wall to bring back a wight to get Cersei to believe them… Sandor should have been Tyrion’s HOTH (hand of the hand). Sandor could have talked some sense into Tyrion to see the world the way it was and not the way he hoped it might be… You could probably write some good dialogue for Sandor talking some sense into Tyrion each time he made another horrible suggestion….
With Bran, I agree there really wasn’t any foreshadowing that he would sit in the throne. I guess technically there wasn’t an iron throne, so his position was something different. I thought there was much more foreshadowing that Bran may be Bran the Builder. I thought that with the time traveling of the 3ER there were many other possibilities of Bran coming full circle with something from his past. I never bought into the Bran is the NK though. But I did think he may have something to do with building the wall and possibly building it again.. .I agree though, there wasn’t anything that made you think Bran could be a king.
Tron79,
”You could probably write some good dialogue for Sandor talking some sense into Tyrion each time he made another horrible suggestion….”
______
Yes, you’re right. Something along the lines of Sandor’s succinct but emphatic rejection of Tyrion’s suggestion to him during the Battle of the Blackwater:
“Eat sh*t, dwarf.”
Tron79,
Oh, and let’s not forget Sandor’s assessment of Tyrion’s boneheaded scheme to capture a wight to bring to Cersei:
(S7e7, Sandor to Tyrion on their way to the Dragonpit Show & Tell)
Sandor: “And this is all your idea. Seems every bad idea has some Lannister c*nt behind it.”
Adrianacandle,
“There’s this essay on Reddit from Adam Feldman! A lot of it hurts my heart but he makes a good case.”
Thanks for this, Adriana. It’s interesting that you have all this material, we might take advantage of it now that you’re open about it!
I’ve read Feldman’s view and it’s certainly interesting. But there’s things that still don’t fit structurally in the general narrative with this ending. I’m one of the first who said that Jon’s ending makes sense politically especially if the frame that we saw on screen is the same in the books, meaning, the Unsullied terrorize the country and Dany has the lords’ support even after the burning of KL.
What doesn’t fit specifically in what Feldman says is that Bran will actually be the one to urge Jon to kill Dany. It’s not in line with Bran’s psychology, neither the scene described in the first chapter. Bran advocates for life in this chapter.
Also, this:
“One day, Bran, you will be Robb’s bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is.”
In this extract Bran is connected to Robb and is said specifically that he’ll “hold a keep” of his own “for your brother and your king”. If this was foreshadowing that Bran would become king of Westeros, Martin should have chosen an expression more vague, i.e. “some day you’ll come to have power of your own”. Instead, “brother and king” may apply to both Robb and Jon and he writes he’ll “hold a keep”, meaning power, “for” a king/brother.
If this is foreshadowing, it only shows that Bran’s brother will one day become king. Robb did become king, so it’s accomplished, and he makes decisions based on the fact that he has become lord of Winterfell himself (or at least acting in his stead).
If I had to make a wild guess, I’d say that Bran’s act of justice (however it may take place, which I am rather sure will) does not relate to Jon, but to himself, considering that the entire story started with his double-attempted assassination by the Lannisters. Crimes have been committed against him (a 7 year old boy!) that so far remain unpunished in the books and the show. Bran is the personification of innocence and what happens to the innocent by the powerful. The next time he’ll address the issue, Bran will be either lord of Winterfell, or even king (in the North or of Westeros). But he has to address it, because at some point even the three-eyed crow instructs him to forget about it (you must have the extract, lol). This has to come full circle, Bran has to face it for healing.
I’d also like to point out about the message here. Bran-Jon like Feldman says resembling Aegon V and Bloodraven is not a good story to be made an example of such a book, to become the final message. It’s filled with betrayal and ambition among the main protagonists, even though Bloodraven is a Targ so he may be a stand-in for Jon.
And about the “graphic novel adaptation”: it’s a line in the first book in general, not the first chapter in particular (that is only Feldman’s opinion). Any line/exchange between characters may qualify, even if it includes Bran. Bran is all over the first book anyway. Perhaps we should see all his exchanges with other characters, lol.
I don’t know what you think of all this. I’d like your opinion on what Feldman says here. Of course it’s only speculation, on our part too.
Efi,
Hey Efi! 🙂
“There’s this essay on Reddit from Adam Feldman! A lot of it hurts my heart but he makes a good case.”
No problem! Since the finale, I have felt that Bran becoming king is from GRRM, I’m just not a big fan of it. But the books may build up to it differently — I truly have no idea.
Can you elaborate? I remember that you felt Jon would have the lords’ support after killing Dany, but not Dany having this support? Please correct me if I’m misunderstanding or misremembering! 🙂
I think Feldman does give a good answer to this:
Bran advocates for life in the first chapter but he’s advocating for the lives of the pups who are innocent and don’t deserve death in fear of what they might become.
In contrast, if Dany is allowed to continue her “liberation” campaign, more innocents die (as the pups were innocent and Bran didn’t want death for them) — and, if this goes down the way it did in the show, she’s already leveled a city and declared her intentions.
Efi,
I don’t think foreshadowing always needs to as on the nose as all that. “Brother and king” is an interpretation and a theory — but it may not be intended to mean the same person or predict an outcome. For example, all the king “hints” re: Jon may not be intended to foreshadow what Jon will become, but rather, hint at who Jon may have been had the Baratheons and Starks lost the rebellion against Aerys.
And I think there’s a bit of irony here, which seems in-line with GRRM’s style, if Bran becomes king. In contrast to expectations, Bran won’t hold a keep in anyone’s else’s name, not for either of his brothers, but instead, he’ll be the one for whom people hold keeps.
I think this is a valid interpretation! But this may not be the purpose of Bran’s character (personifying innocence or confronting the powerful as harming innocence). He’s already infiltrating Hodor’s mind and might be unknowingly partaking in cannibalism. Bran’s story may be heading down another path. The harm done to him by Jaime leads Bran down a series of events completely different than what’s expected of him in-universe: it’s a path to become the Three-Eyed Raven, whose purpose is mysterious.
The comparison doesn’t mean it has to be the same story — it’s not the same story from what we saw on screen. There are already quite a few differences between the two, but they don’t have to be the same to explore a similar idea (Bran’s brother-cousin Jon sacrificing his honor and killing Dany to save lives; Bran taking the throne). And GRRM seems to explore similar ideas over and over but in a variety of ways with different characters/different stories.
Feldman is speculating as he says this is his belief the referenced line of dialogue has come from Bran I, but also says it might be Ned’s line about looking into a man’s eyes before sentence.
But you’re totally right, this is all complete speculation. Feldman’s outline and reasoning makes sense to me. I don’t like it a whole lot, this isn’t an ending I would have preferred, but I can see it working out this way. However, I have no idea how these ends will be met.
Efi,
In my first response to you, I accidentally included your quote of my message (“There’s this essay on Reddit from Adam Feldman! A lot of it hurts my heart but he makes a good case.”) I didn’t mean to include that!
I write up my responses in Pages before I input them into the comment box and when I do that, I copy and paste the person’s comment that I’m responding to into the document so I can immediately reference it without switching back and forth. So that’s why it got left in there. Sorry about that!
Efi,
About Bran:
Ever since 3ER told Bran in S4e10 that he would “find what you have lost,”, I had been expecting to learn what exactly Bran had “lost” and how he would “find”it.
That never happened. Now the show is over. 3ER’s cryptic words were never clarified. Nor was his assurance ever fulfilled, from what I could tell. I still have no idea what he was talking about.
Does anyone know what Bran had “lost” and if so, when he found it?
(Excerpt, S4e10: Bran meets 3ER)
Bran: “You’re the three-eyed raven?”
3ER: “I’ve been many things. Now I am what you see.”
Meera: “My brother, he led us to you and now he–“
3ER: “He knew what would happen. From the moment he left, he knew and he went anyway.”
Bran: “How do you know?”
3ER: “I’ve been watching you. All of you. All of your lives. With a thousand eyes and one. Now you’ve come to me at last Brandon Stark, though the hour is late.”
Bran: “I didn’t want anyone to die for me.”
3ER: “He died so you could find what you have lost.”
Bran: “You’re going to help me walk again?”
3ER: “You will never walk again. But you will fly.”
❓❓❓❓
Efi,
P.S./Addendum to 10:06 PM Comment
When 3ER told Bran, “You will never walk again. But you will fly,” I thought Bran might one day ride a dragon, commandeer Littlefinger’s jet pack, or something really cool like sprout wings.
I suppose 3ER was merely referring to warging into birds…which is kind of a letdown.
🦅🦅🦅🦅
Oh! I see what you mean now! The materials I collect (hoard) have rhyme and reason to me (in relation to a variety of subjects and topics that have interested or troubled me and those can even seem random) but may be completely random to somebody else. They can be anything from a useful article via a reputable source to a YouTube comment from some rando. It’s something I save because there’s an aspect about it that I’ll want to confirm with my memory. But if you’re looking for something re:GoT/ASOIAF, maybe I can find it if I have it! 🙂
I think it can be considered a form of digital hoarding? I would physically hoard printed articles from a variety of topics too (mostly related to other subjects) in labeled, stacked tupperware containers — and, whenever something triggered a reminder of a specific piece of text, I would come back to them to confirm the accuracy and/or existence of this text I once read (even if I read this piece of text years ago). But because that would take such a long time and because I didn’t have enough space for everything, I spent forever scanning everything I had and converting them to searchable PDFs. Then I burned the physical media because I also fear mold. I mean, I know that’s not such a problem here in Calgary since it’s a dry, dry climate but the irrational fear is still there.
Most of the time, it’s not even about the topic of the text I’m searching for, it’s to confirm whether or not my memory is my buddy and not making stuff up.
My obsession is with time and memory, with memory relating to time and the passage of time. It’s distressing, really distressing, but I was able to utilize it for several projects.
I’m fun at parties, I swear ;D
Oh god Heroes was such a brilliant show in the early seasons, had so much promise and intrigue then seemingly had no concrete plan of how to progress and quickly fell apart, I don’t even recall how many seasons it had in the end.
I’ve always been confused why a segment of the fan base are convinced Stannis will beat Ramsay. Even before season 5 aired, I was firmly of the belief that he was close to the end. In fact I believe GRRM had his demise planned for Dance but later moved it to Winds on the advice of his editor.
His army are starving, freezing and the Boltons/Freys are closing in, I feel Theon/Reek is there to witness the slaughter that is impending. There is no logical reason for Stannis to live and go to the wall as some predict, at least in my mind.
Regarding Sansa, I’m fully expecting her to come North with the armies of the Vale, I’m less convinced they will ride to the rescue the same way they did in the show though, far more likely they will combine with resurrected Jon, his forces and the Mandarley forces to retake Winterfell from the outset.
Also I know the Sansa marrying Ramsay twist has been heavily criticised but some Jayne Poole character that nobody but book readers knows suffering the same cruelty would have been poor TV too so D&D were between a rock and a hard place there.
Bran becoming king comes from GRRM, Isaac confirmed it in an interview a few weeks after the show ends. I feel people have to accept the show delivered the major plot points for the main characters, the details may differ and the minor characters (Jorah, Bronn, Hound, Mountain etc.) will likely change a lot but this is George’s ending.
Ten Bears,
LOL. Poor Bran thought that he lost the use of his legs, while all along Bloodraven meant that he lost a kingdom!
Adrianacandle,
Hello Adriana! Thanks for your reply. (Please don’t apologize for such mistakes).
I’ve said that Jon should be king. His Targ/Stark descent would secure a large support among the lords. His Stark side would secure him the North including the Vale and the Riverlands, and his Targ side parts of the South, where, however, things are much more complicated. But Jon becoming king in this scenario means that he’s revealed as the hero of the story after his resurrection, the one who will have fought for the survival of humanity etc.
If, on the other side, the books go the way the show did, other things are implicated in the story. If Jon straight up supports Dany, ignoring her crimes even for the good of the realm and in the end becomes complicit in the murder of innocents as in the case of KL, many will see him as guilty too. While I doubt that the North will ever withdraw its support (including the Vale and the Riverlands for the sake of Sansa and Arya), the rest of the lords in the South will see in him just another Targ who has no scruples to use whatever means (including dragons) to achieve his goal, even if that goal is saving the realm. In this scenario I can see Jon giving up his rights to the throne to secure peace and stability.
But there’s sth else I wanted to point out too, sth to which I have alluded to before. Choosing Bran as king in a grand council means that the lords in reality recognize that Jon is the legitimate heir and their vote goes to someone from the legitimate king’s family. This secures the allegiance of the Targ supporters via Bran who is a brother/cousin of the legitimate king; while on the other hand, by choosing Bran, it means that the lords would turn a blind eye to the Northern support to the Targ Jon/Dany because they’d recognize that they had legitimate reasons for taking revenge on KL for what they suffered in the wars.
The political context is in my opinion thrilling and I’m really looking forward to the WoW to see which way it’ll go. I guess much of it depends on whether Jon in the books will be such a fervent supporter of Dany for whatever reason, which, as I’ve said before, I don’t believe it will be the case.
I can see the many ironies in the story and it’s such a big and complicated story by now that it’s impossible to predict which way it’ll go with any certainty. Of course none of the stories pre-canon won’t repeat the same way in ASOIAF but I still think the Bloodraven/Aegon V parallel is far too bitter to be the final note/conclusion of the book. However, I have to say that most of the lore and even the fairytales of Europe are mean and bitter and end up with disaster (no matter how much Disney has changed them, lol).
The pups. Well the pups are not just animals. The animals they found in the snow are symbolic of the houses. The stag (Baratheon) kills the direwolf (Stark) are the pups are astray. Each pup represents a Stark kid and all Stark kids have warging abilities. Jon names his pup, found away from the others (to signify that he’s not really a Stark) Ghost, which is a foreshadow of his death, which happens at the end of the fifth book. Sansa’s direwolf is killed by Ned himself, and Sansa’s child soul dies with Lady to symbolize her “death” at the hands of the Lannisters. Robb’s direwolf dies with him the night of the red wedding.
So it’s not just direwolf pups, they represent the Stark kids and Bran here is advocating for them in the general sense of “life”.
Based on that fact alone, which is found in the very first chapter of the book, I won’t ever have a doubt that Martin has planned the whole thing all along and he knows exactly where it’s heading and what its conclusion is. He may have many details to figure out (eg dwelling a lot on secondrary characters) but he knows exactly which story he’s telling and he’ll get to the end, perhaps sooner than we think.
(if he’s planning to publish WoW in spring 2020, then the book or a large part of it should already be with his editors. Editing a text of 1500 pages at least is extremely difficult).
Efi,
Thank-you, Efi! And please accept my apology for the future apologies for similar mistakes that will inevitably occur 😉
I think this is tricky.
* First, because there’s no proof Jon is a Targaryen, people would have to accept the word of Sam and Bran and I think people will need a little more convincing. Plus, Jon wouldn’t exactly pass Ned Stark’s hair colour-based DNA testing as Jon lacks the trademark Targaryen features.
* I can’t really see Dorne supporting the son of Rhaegar with Lyanna, who Rhaegar left Elia Martell and their two kids for.
* The south doesn’t know Jon. If they know anything about him, Jon is Ned Stark’s bastard son… who some are now claiming is actually the hidden trueborn son and heir to the Targaryen dynasty that has seemingly popped out of nowhere… And doesn’t stigma surrounding bastardy say bastards are not to be trusted?
* If Dany does start reenacting a one-sided version of The Purge in the books as well, the Targaryen name will be shot to hell and I expect wariness of the Targaryen blood line would rise, losing support for Jon.
* If Jon kills Dany in the books, he’ll be condemned as a kinslayer, oathbreaker, and queenslayer. Whatever support Dany had wasn’t because of her Targaryen name, it was through her actions (Unsullied, Dothraki, Missandei) and agreements (Yara Greyjoy, Dorne, Olenna Tyrell). I don’t think her supporters are going to rally behind Jon, the man who killed their queen. I think they’ll respond the way Yara did in the show.
* If the North believes Jon is a Targaryen, would they trust him? Would they suspect Jon had known all along? Would they view him with wariness, especially in light of what Dany did to King’s Landing — a queen Jon had bent the knee to and believed in, who is also his aunt and incestuous lover?
I don’t think Jon’s purpose is to become king or that he’s meant to be revealed to all as the prevailing hero. Nor do I think he has to be hailed as such to actually be a hero. I think Jon is meant to more of an unsung hero, “the sword in the darkness”, the shield who defends the realms of humanity at great personal cost, and whose actions may ultimately bring change to the realm — including how leaders are chosen ie. not through blood succession or conquest, but chosen by a council.
There’s this ACOK quote from Jeor Mormont to Jon that I think might be relevant :
This is pretty bitter, it is. Jon is essentially a servant, a tool to bring about change and defend humanity — but he’ll be, as Jeor says in this quote, unsung.
But perhaps, after everything, Jon may prefer this and wish to be left alone — away from the games and power grabs of the realm that have caused so much pain.
Efi,
While Jon supported Dany as queen and genuinely believed she’d be a good queen, he did not sign off on democide, something neither Jon, Tyrion, nor Davos (or even Dany) expected she’d do. Jon tried (and failed) to stop his own men from participating. However, those Northern soldiers willfully disobeyed Jon’s orders and participated in the slaughter. So if Jon’s complicit by virtue of his support for Dany, I think the Northern armies are guilty as well because they actually did voluntarily participate in the massacre against Jon’s orders.
But, that said, yes, Westeros may view Jon as complicit (perhaps alongside the Northern armies) because they don’t know who agreed to what and what all went down.
I think this would depend on if the South believes the Stark-looking Jon is a Targaryen but it’s true that the South doesn’t know Jon so his presence in King’s Landing during the massacre and his support of Dany would look bad in light of Dany’s actions.
But I think Jon would want to give up whatever rights he has to the throne regardless, especially after everything and especially if he kills Dany. I’m not certain how they will be in the books, I personally think they will be involved — but at the very least, she’ll still be his aunt and it will be kinslaying.
I’m not so sure about this. I don’t think Bran’s connection to Jon had anything to do with his election as king, nor do I think Dany’s supporters would support Jon, even if they believed Jon was a Targaryen. They supported Daenerys — not because she was a Targaryen but because of her actions and power.
I also don’t think they’d view the Northern armies as having legitimate reasons massacring civilians as revenge… If they’re going to view Jon as complicit in the murder of innocents in KL, I don’t see how they’d be sympathetic to the Northern armies actually slaughtering the civilians of King’s Landing because Aerys/Cersei/Joffrey were horrible to the Starks and killed Rickard, Brandon, and Ned.
I think it depends on the scenario under which they meet and how far Dany is down her darkening path. Jon and Dany both have the same end goal: a better world. But they have very different approaches. I think, whatever happens, the relationship between Jon and Dany is going to be significant per the quote from Alan Taylor.
I agree — I loved the first season, it all seemed to be coming together for that story’s conclusion in a really, really exciting way. I felt Heroes started to lose its way in season 2 and seemed to be winging it in a way.
Efi,
Ooooooh yes. The original story of The Little Mermaid is my pick for the most gutting T____T
I think there are a lot of ways to interpret finding the Stark direwolves because there’s just so much there. In a 2003 interview (“Interview with the Dragon”, Robert Shaw) GRRM says of Sansa losing Lady, “it kind of leaves her a little adrift.” Meanwhile, with Jon and Ghost, he says, “So he’s of them, he’s part of the family, he’s part of the siblings, but he’s a little bit apart too. Ghost is very similar to that. He’s the albino, he’s the one who makes no noise, so he’s related to the other direwolves but one apart as well.”
I originally included the full quotes but got checked by the spam filter. I did not pray hard enough to the Lord of Light when pressing “Post Comment”. And maybe I need better candles to burn in my reverence 🙁
Adrianacandle,
Speaking of other TV shows, I had to watch Ozark, since they won Emmy’s over GOT.
It’s actually pretty addicting…I thought the pilot was great…I’ve only watched the first couple of episodes and then I pushed down the urge to binge to keep reading ASOIAF and I turned off Netflix. I’ve been pretty good at staying away from too much Netflix and Hulu until I complete my quest… BTW, I’m loving book Jon… Even though he keeps thinking about Ygritte saying “you know nothing jon snow”….book Jon seems to be alot less clueless than show Jon…(but that could change since I have a ways to go…) He had some great battle advice for Stannis in one of the recent chapters I read… If only he would have been as good with strategy in the show! I thought his battle plan (war room) scenes in the show were lacking. It just gave Sansa a chance to yell at him. I think book Jon would have had some better plans for the BOTB if he jumped into the show… I’m not sure if I’ll get to Arya II today…but I’m hopeful. It’s getting closer…
Tron79,
Oooh, I’m going to check out Ozark now! I’ve been looking for something new and was considering rewatching The Marvelous Mrs Maisel but I think I’ll give Ozark a try! 🙂
Re:book Jon — yes, he is quite a bit less clueless 🙂 And he’s very good with Stannis. Although, there are some things that he’s not so smart about and he is blindsided by and I think it harkens back to Jeor Mormont’s warning to Jon, “Your heart is noble, Jon, but learn a lesson here. We cannot set the world to rights. That is not our purpose. The Night’s Watch has other wars to fight.” But I’ll shut up now so I can let you finish first!
As for BotB, I think Jon may have come up with a better pre-battle strategy and, if the Mountain clans were in the show, may have asked them for help. He does seem to know strategy though, much like Robb, who was also quite good at it.
The Northern lords also seem much more loyal to the Stark cause and much less flip-floppy than they are in the show (in the show, they seem to switch loyalties and between leaders at least once a season) — so they might have been more willing to help.
It’s hard to say because I’m not sure if we’ll see this scenario in the books — or maybe we will, but another version of it.
Have fun with Arya II!
Adrianacandle,
Thanks. Yes Jon could have used those clans in the show! Putting down my phone and turning off the tv now to get back to it.
Tron79,
Have fun! And I look forward to hearing your thoughts about Arya II! And there’s a Bran chapter (Bran III, Chapter 34) that I think is really interesting.
I think I’m going to start Ozark today….
Amendment!
In my previous comment, I missed the last part in which you said “for what they suffered in the wars.” 🙂
I don’t think they’d view the Northern armies as having legitimate reasons for taking revenge on KL either because of what the Northern armies suffered in the wars against monarchs in King’s Landing (Targaryen and Lannister). Every army suffers in war but these armies aren’t justified in slaughtering and raping a surrendered populace. Especially as it’s not the citizens who are responsible.
By this token, this would justify Dany’s actions against KL because of what she suffered as a result of Cersei and the Lannister/Baratheon regimes. Lannister reprisal against the North would be justified because of Lannister losses in the wars against Robb Stark’s rebellion.
But I don’t think these actions are/would be justified, not a massacre of surrendered civilians, who you termed as innocents (which I agree with). Where you said the Westerosi lords would view Jon as complicit in this and many would see him as guilty due to his support of Dany, despite Jon not participating in the massacre, I don’t see how they’d view the Northern armies as justified for going against Jon’s orders and actually participating in the massacre for the sake of revenge.
Unless I’ve misunderstood you! And I’m sorry if I have.
I will be absent a lot more this week, I don’t have much time reacting. I try to read as many comments as I can. I would like too read Tron’s reading journey.
Jon Snowed,
Read Theon’s winds chapter.
The sword of Stannis will be prove that Stannis died that will result in the death of Shireen or little Sam/Aemon in the north. Look up more this is a theory that’s all over the internet.
Another thing is that we can almost suspect that Stannis is going to win is that this is GRRM. If a character seems to win, he dies. If he seems to lose, he will win in a special tactical way. And didn’t GRRM already spoiled that Stannis would survive further in his books than the show, or was that just that he meant Stannis is death in season 5, but alive at the end of Dance because the battle of Ice still needs to happen.
Adrianacandle,
Eh, my mistake perhaps (sorry for not being very clear, I tend to compress a long story to a few words). By “legitimate reasons” I don’t exactly mean “justification” (rather, reasons that can be acknowledged as valid). And by “wars” I don’t really mean the actual war against Tywin, but:
the execution of Ned (even though personally I disagree that this can be a grievance, at least not an absolute one)
the murder of Robb, Cat and the Northern lords at a wedding
the planned absorption of the North via the forced marriage of Sansa with Tyrion
the twice attempted assassination against Bran
(and I am sure that TB can find about Arya to fit in here)
The thing is, however, that medieval law actually justifies a war against the overlord if the overlord has disrespected his lord subject. If all of the above is not disrespect of the worst kind, starting with the last one, I don’t know what is.
If any of the Starks appeared in a grand council of the lords and brought up these complaints (to put it mildly) then perhaps many would acknowledge that the Starks had a right to want to overthrow the last representative of the family who caused them such misfortune, meaning Cersei, so they might in the end forgive them for siding with Daenerys.
Still, the civilians aren’t responsible for any of this, the people in power are. The city surrendered to Cersei, which meant Cersei was already overthrown and Daenerys was now queen, providing no reason for the Northern armies to slaughter the smallfolk so I still can’t see a reason for the Westerosi lords to overlook the Northern army’s willing participation in a massacre — particularly when the war had already been won by Daenerys. Cersei is history.
This seems to be a bit of a double standard here: the lords would view Jon as guilty in the massacre of innocents due to his support of Daenerys in taking the throne from Cersei — but, by the same token, these same lords would give clemency to the Northern armies for siding with Daenerys in taking the throne from Cersei because of the crimes against the Stark family (which Jon is a part of) committed by the Lannister family and Littlefinger (which the people had nothing to do with) — even though these Northern soldiers took part in the slaughter of innocents who surrendered to Daenerys.
I mean, I agree that Jon’s support of Daenerys in light of the King’s Landing massacre and his presence in the city at that time looks bad but I think the Northern armies would look pretty bad as well, considering they voluntarily took part in the massacre and disobeyed Jon’s orders to not participate.
Efi,
Gah, I’m sorry! I forgot to directly address my previous comment to you! When Grammarly isn’t enough to prevent my stupid errors… even typos T___T
Efi,
Also, I’m sorry if I’ve misunderstood your meaning in any way! And I hate using the term “double standard” because I feel this might too aggressive but I was at a loss for a more diplomatic term. I don’t say that to be accusatory in any way! I’m just having trouble following the reasoning — why Jon would be viewed as guilty while the Northern armies would be granted clemency for support of Daenerys against Cersei.
Adrianacandle,
Yeah, it seems like double standards, doesn’t it? Unfortunately this is how politics works even today. When there’s a major screw-up, the person in charge (or “responsible” whatever that means) is removed so that the others keep on working. This is what I mean.
Removing Jon would make it easier for the others to reach an understanding with the North. The North is a country they can’t ignore, but Jon is only one man and is expendable. So it would be a political compromise, so to speak.
Also, from a political point of view, such a development would make the secession of the North almost a necessity. The North wanting to have nothing to do with the South on account of its crimes against the Starks and the lords, the South with bitterness and anger for the North’s participation in the massacre, it seems to me that the North’s independence is the only way to secure peace between them. The election of Bran as king in this context would seem like an effort to appease the Starks for Jon’s exile as well (the other reason I pointed out may still be valid too). Bran’s election is not by chance, is not because he “has the best story” (as put by Tyrion in a simplistic manner), but because he’s the guarantor of this compromise and of the much wanted peace between the kingdoms.
Adrianacandle,
“there’s no proof Jon is a Targaryen”.
You’re wrong here. Howland Reed was there. He’s alive and well in the books, so he’ll able to speak the truth when it comes to it. I suppose this is why Martin is saving him for the last books; he has stated that he’ll appear when the time comes (if my memory doesn’t deceive me).
“If the North believes Jon is a Targaryen, would they trust him? Would they suspect Jon had known all along? Would they view him with wariness, especially in light of what Dany did to King’s Landing — a queen Jon had bent the knee to and believed in, who is also his aunt and incestuous lover?”
I don’t know, but it depends on Sansa, I guess. If she gives him her support, I don’t see why not. Jon is also a Stark raised by Ned. In this, however, there’s poetic irony and poetic symmetry. Public opinion of Westeros doesn’t like bastards, but it’ll be a bastard that will have liberated the North from the Boltons and Lannisters, and lead to the North’s independence once again. An Aegon will have liberated the North, while an Aegon made the North to bend the knee. An Aegon will have fought to save them from the threat of the Others even if he’ll have done it by bringing dragons. I don’t see why the North wouldn’t trust him after all that, especially if Sansa gives him her support (as per the show).
“I think Jon is meant to more of an unsung hero”.
No. no, no, no, no.
Mormont says this to one who is the protagonist of the book. This is called poetic irony.
Also:
“His name is Aegon; his is the song of ice and fire”.
Rhaegar of course is mistaken here. He thought that the song of ice and fire would be sung for his first-born son, born a Targaryen and a Martell from his first legitimate marriage to Elia Martell, literally born “in the purple”.
But it will be his second son who will have a song, the one who no one knows -yet- if he’s a legitimate son or not, who grows up scorned and unwanted at the margin of his own mother’s family, the Starks, for whose sake a kingdom burned to the ground, but he’ll be the one to save the kingdom from the ultimate threat.
Jon will be the most sung hero in Westeros’ fictionary world, even if his fate is tragic.
Literally of course the Ice of the song refers to the threat in the far North, and Fire refers to the threat from the east, as Martin has said himself (imagining the context of the book similar to a dualistic herecy). Jon as having elements of both (as Rhaegar figured it out) will fight both threats. His is the song of Ice and Fire.
Efi,
Thanks for an interesting discussion, Efi!
If Jon is punished for the democide (rather than queenslaying as in the show), I think I would more liken that to scapegoating rather than compromise (re: the democide, not the queenslaying) as one party is being punished for the actions of another. The Northern armies willingly participated in an atrocity and disobeyed their liege lord to stop but they are granted clemency while Jon, who tried to stop them from participating in a mass slaughter on civilians, is exiled as punishment.
I see Jon being exiled for queenslaying and this exile being agreed upon as a compromise between the Starks and Dany’s supporters. But not for Dany’s democide.
However, let’s say the democide is put on Jon in a negotiation between the Westerosi lords and Starks, I do see what you mean — you can’t really punish an entire army without declaring war on that region. And they’re going to want to avoid war. But… yeah, if the Westerosi lords and Starks made their decision this way, I’d be side-eying the Kingdom of the North even more.
I was actually going to say, “This is another plot hole!” because none of the participating forces are punished for participating in democide, nobody even mentions it in the council. But then Kevin raised a good point in a previous thread: I think his point was because these armies had been under Dany’s regime when they did the massacre, it might be technically legal (still an atrocity! But legal in the way ceremonial rape and enslavement is legal in Gilead from The Handmaid’s Tale) and maybe not punishable because Dany was deciding the new rules.
Okay, but to play devil’s advocate, I would question how the North would sustain itself. And I would be concerned that there’d be kindling for future war with all this lingering bitterness, especially since the North would need help to rebuild.
Bran, as an emotionally removed king and who is now the Three Eyed Raven, will be pretty impartial if it comes to blows between the North and the South so I’m not sure if his Stark name will make much of a difference to keeping the peace?
If the Starks are agreeing to hold Jon accountable for the democide by putting the Northern army’s crimes on him alone, I’m not sure why the Starks would need even more appeasement? They’re already getting clemency for their entire army with one guy taking the bullet for their army’s actions, as well as their independence.
Plus, Bran — as the Three Eyed Raven — no longer holds any familial or blood allegiances so I’m not sure how that would benefit the Starks. I don’t think that’s why he’d be chosen as king. I think Bran will be chosen because he is impartial, possesses omniscience, and has access to the entire history of the world (including undocumented stuff!)
To me, it kind of seems like the South would be going above and beyond to appease the North when the North’s army participated in an atrocity on one of their civilian populations.
And with the Northern armies being so depleted and the region struggling to rebuild and sustain itself after being ravaged by the Others and with their existing food struggles, they’d need help: they’re not a fruitful, bountiful land. It seems the North needs the south more than the south needs them.
You’ve laid that out extremely well Kevin but honestly I don’t think it will play out like that if only from a story telling perspective Stannis realistically needs to be killed off in order to end his claim for the throne. If he survives the battle of ice then what happens to him? Does he return to Storms End or go to the Wall perhaps? Having Stannis take Winterfell also leaves Jon side lined in his step to become King of the North which is almost certainly coming towards end of Winds.
I actually feel Mel will burn Shireen hoping to bring Stannis back but instead it’s Jon who arises:)
Efi,
Like Sam and Bran, this is still just a man’s word. It’s not exactly proof. They’d have to somehow believe Howland Reed and I’m not sure what kind of sway he has, or how many people know of him.
As for Sansa, while Sansa’s word probably will hold clout, it still isn’t proof. I’d expect people to still have doubts and questions because in-universe, R+L sounds totally far-fetched and like what somebody would make up to get a claim.
I mean, it has Rhaegar and Lyanna getting secretly married, as opposed to Lyanna being raped per popular belief. They produce a son who happens to look like a Stark. This son also happens to be a brand new secret Targaryen heir nobody has ever heard about before. Ned Stark, the most honorable man in Westeros, lied to everyone for 1.5 decades without anybody having a clue (not even Varys or Littlefinger!), keeping the biggest secret in Westeros, and committing high treason by raising the Targaryen son of his best friend’s archnemesis under his own roof as his bastard…
Like, that’s…. a lot… to take somebody’s word for without anything else to prove this. Even if they had the high septon’s diary, there’s no proof Jon is a secret Targaryen son Ned hid under everyone’s noses for 15 years.
And all that without Jon having the trademark Targaryen features or having been witnessed as being raised as a Targaryen since birth ala Daenerys and Viserys.
Plus, if Dany goes nuts the way she did in the show, there’s going to be big-time “yikes” attached to the Targaryen name. And it’s going to be fresh.
Efi,
For me, in light of the show’s ending and GRRM saying he told D&D his ending/Bran as king coming from GRRM — I think the king hints are poetic irony while Jeor’s quotes (and other quotes to this effect) might outline Jon’s fate 😉
I do wish some of what you’re saying is true. Maybe not necessarily Jon being king (I was 99.5% sure he was going to die defeating the Others and maybe I was 15% convinced he would have negotiated peace with the Others and became the new Night King in exchange for the safety of the realm ala Alt Shift X) but I totally wanted him to be sung! I don’t want Jon to be a queenslayer/kingslayer/oathbreaker and living in exile (to that end, I don’t want Dany ending her arc as the Mad Queen but I’m definitely not going to get what I want…).
But I think that’s the story we’re getting.
I agree with this part but I don’t think this means he’ll be a celebrated hero. I think he’ll be the one to bear the burden but I think he’ll be doing it without any praise or glory, especially if he kills Dany — which will be both socially condemnable and condemnable in the eyes of the gods.
This is what I know of the prophecy Rhaegar was obsessed with:
* Azor Ahai would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, born amidst salt and smoke
* This hero will save the world from darkness
* Rhaegar believed he was this hero based on his Summerhall tragedy birth
* Then he believed his first son was AA due to red comet on the night of his birth
* However, Rhaegar said the “dragon has three heads” so he needs three kids but Elia can’t have more kids so he gets with Lyanna because…
* He says AA is connected to the “song of ice and fire”. Lyanna is Stark/ice, Rhaegar is Targaryen/fire.
I think Jon’s fate is more mystical and magical rather than societal. He’s the child of two ancient magic bloodlines. He’s the blood of the Old Gods and Valyria, both of which hold a lot of mysterious, old power — but I don’t think this power is that relevant to the political. Rather, it seems relevant to the mystical areas of the world: the Others/the Children of the Forest/the magic in Winterfell/the magic in the Wall/dragons/visions/greenseeing/skinchanging/the Old Gods/the Stark direwolves.
Jon’s story is surrounded with mysticism and prophecy — but I think it’s to save the realm rather than any succession claims. I think Jon is ultimately “the sword in the darkness”, a shield, a defender, but not a king. I think Jon is set up for bringing the change the realm needs to become a better world, rather than for ruling that world.
And I think I’m going to go to bed now! Sun’s nearly up 😉 Got to avoid that UVA!
Me too 🙁
Jon Snowed,
Jon will go down from the wall because of Stannis letter. They will arive just after Stannis takes the castle of Winterfell. He and Jon will face both the first wave of the other’s attack. Maybe Stannis and Mel will become overconfident and Stannis move north to deal with the others and get killed. He will be killed there and he will not get back alive then. The take over off Winterfell will not be a battle in the books. The boltons will be defeated within the castle not outside.
As for Stannis why he needs to survive is pretty clear. The visions that happened in Dany’s chapter. I can’t remember if it was the house of the undying or the warnings of Quaithe, I need to look that up. But it was heavily stated Dany will fight Stannis in some way.
And I think Martin’s statement is proof enough, he already stated Stannis will outlive show Stannis. Will Stannis die? probably but a bit later. But the question is how. But being killed by the bolton’s is not GRRM way. He will be killed in a way we didn’t see coming. Others, Jon himself, Dany. Maybe Mel turns on Stannis once she finds out Jon is the true Azor Ahai, and burns Stannis alive for his kings blood. So many ways that are more interesting storywise. Do I think he will die in winds of Dream and Jon will become king in the north? Yes. But it will happen a bit different than the oversimplified version of the show.
Efi,
”Literally of course the Ice of the song refers to the threat in the far North, and Fire refers to the threat from the east, as Martin has said himself (imagining the context of the book similar to a dualistic herecy)”
Not metaphorically or figuratively?
Adrianacandle,
”… Oooh, I’m going to check out Ozark now! I’ve been looking for something new and was considering rewatching The Marvelous Mrs Maisel but I think I’ll give Ozark a try! 🙂”
____
The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel is #1 on my To-Watch list. I loved Rachel Brosnahan in Season 1 of the Blacklist. I felt she should’ve been the lead actress. Well anyway, that show started out great and started sucking midway through its second season. As much as I like James Spader, I couldn’t watch anymore.
I guess I should check out Ozark. It got a lot of love at the Emmys, and I like Jason Bateman. Have you started watching Ozark? If so, how is it?
Rachel Brosnahan is amazing and I’ve loved Jason Batemen since Arrested Development! The Marvelous Mrs Maisel is one of the best new series I’ve seen in the last few years — due to the spirit of the lead character, I think you’ll like it 😉
I meant to start Ozark yesterday (or the day before, the days are beginning to blur) but by meaning to do so, I incited Murphy’s Law and was given a rush assignment to do that is due in about 10 hours X_X So naturally, I’m posting here…. 😉
That said, I better get back to work 🙁
Ten Bears,
Hahahahahaha!
I’ve been thinking of you when I was writing that!
Cloud in my head: TB? Literally? Hm!
Present time
No, I think it’s literally (even if it’s a figurative world). The Others are described in the book as beautiful creatures made of ice (the Great Other), and Rh’llor is the god of Fire.
Figuratively though: “dragons are fire made flesh” (Quaithe to Daenerys) (ACoK 27, Daenerys II).
Adrianacandle,
Adriana I wrote a reply yesterday which went into the open space, along with my prayers for Martin’s book to come out any time soon. (the powers of the cosmos are sending me a message perhaps?)
Luckily, I managed to save it. I tried uploading again as a response to you, but it didn’t work. I did answer TB’s tease though, so perhaps there’s a problem with my links to you?
I tried to answer as a general comment, but nope; didn’t work either.
I’ll keep trying. Eventually the cosmic ban shall be lifted, I hope.
Efi,
That’s happened to me before quite a bit and I remember others having quite a bit of trouble with that as well — sometimes, for one reason or another, posts get caught up in the spam filter. Based on my experience, I’d suggest trying to wait a little bit, dividing posts into parts (sometimes, length causes a post to get caught up in the spam filter, sometimes not), and perhaps rewriting some of it so it’s not identical to the wording in your previous disappeared posts (I suspect identical wording may trigger the filter but I’m not certain — this is all trial and error on my part).
I totally empathize 🙁
I’m not going to try and predict any ways the storylines will go forward in TWoW – though we know from the preview chapters how some of it will proceed. My predictions were usually way off – I’d caught on that Jon was probably Rhaegar and Lyanna’s son but that was quite a popular theory on the internet anyway, so maybe I saw one of those predictions. I’d thought about perhaps there being a Jaime and Sansa hook-up (in the books) because if Sansa was the younger more beautiful queen Jaime was one of the people Cersei held dear – Jaime and Cersei’s rift happened differently in the books to the show, but I was off in that speculation.
One of the sidelines in the books that I quite liked was the implication that the cat Arya chased through the tunnels was possibly Rhaegar’s and Elia’s daughter’s kitten all grown up and wild. I have cats on the mind because my kitty died this morning. I was aware something wasn’t right three months ago but she’d really been ailing the last week. I’d tried (not with a lot of success) to try and get her to eat something over the last couple of days and of course I wonder now should I just have left her in peace. Still, “tout passe, tout casse, tout lasse”. In the books (I think I can say this without spoiling things) Margery gives Tommen three kittens and Ser Pounce was one of those kittens.
I’ve had comments disappear in the past though sometimes they have rematerialised from the ether later.
Of course the ending was “divisive” because instead of simply not liking it or having legit and even constructive criticism, bitching, moaning and being perpetually and personally offended is “trending” and has become a cottage industry.
So everything has to be screened through the lens of being “divisive”… preferably with rage, fuming brains and foaming at the mouth…