Entertainment Weekly talked with George R.R. Martin about the female storylines and the controversy surrounding violence against those women. Most of which lies heavily on the late scene regarding Sansa Stark and Ramsay Bolton (a scene not even in his books).
Martin begins the interview by explaining the parallels between his story and the actual history of the Middle Ages. The harsh realities of those times coupled with the lack of sexual egalitarianism is exactly the hard truth our heroines face in Game of Thrones.
Martin also addressed that with that comes violence against women and that also includes the sexual sort.
And then there’s the whole issue of sexual violence, which I’ve been criticized for as well. I’m writing about war, which what almost all epic fantasy is about. But if you’re going to write about war, and you just want to include all the cool battles and heroes killing a lot of orcs and things like that and you don’t portray [sexual violence], then there’s something fundamentally dishonest about that. Rape, unfortunately, is still a part of war today. It’s not a strong testament to the human race, but I don’t think we should pretend it doesn’t exist.
Again, a hard truth but one that exists nonetheless.
He concludes by saying:
I want to portray struggle. Drama comes out of conflict. If you portray a utopia, then you probably wrote a pretty boring book.
It’s safe to say the story would lose the majority of it’s edge if it were a utopia so Martin makes a fair point.
Head on over to EW for the full interview!
Watchers would also like to take this time to report on a fatal incident involving a Game of Thrones crew member. Katherine Chappell, a visual effects editor, was killed by a lion while vacationing in South Africa. Reports say the woman was attacked while her windows were down and the lion lunged at her neck. Watchers would like to offer their condolences to the crew and Chappell’s family during this hard time.
Rest In Peace Kathrine Chappell.
I’m kinda unsettled that a dead crew member wasn’t considered newsworthy enough to get her own article. At the very least, I would think she would warrant more than being a footnote to a GRRM interview. Maybe I’m overreacting, but if one of the writers or actors were killed, I’m sure it wouldn’t be considered second-tier news.
Spidey-Dan,
You’re not overreacting.
Spidey-Dan,
She was no longer working on the show, and only did 2 episodes.
I feel sorry for her and the family, but WotW shouldn’t report on everyone who worked on the show at some point.
Agreed and an award winning crew member!
Spidey-Dan,
I totally agree. I was very surprised to see this (news that I read this morning) on a post about Martin and violence against women. You cheapen her death by putting those two stories together. We do a post for characters who die, after all, why not someone who works on the show?
Because she was no longer working on the show.
Then why mention it in the first place?
That being said,this doesn’t need to be another battle. Rest in Peace, and sympathy for all who mourn her.
what a fucking headline..
“VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN — LION EATS WOMAN”
Maybe this could have been handled with more tact, no?
I’m also sick onto death of people asking GRRM about “violence against women”; he keeps saying the same response every time. What do you expect him to say that’s new this time around? The poor guy needs to start flipping off people again.
ash,
Was going to make the same comment.
Roll up your windows in lion country, folks. RIP.
Very sad to hear about the death 🙁
Doesn’t matter if she doesn’t work on the show anymore, a human being died, show some respect.
That’s really sad, I heard of this story a few days ago and it was sad. Then today I learned it was someone from the GoT community and it really hit me hard.
I believe she was only 22 and an avid wildlife conversationalist out raising money to protect these very same lions.
It really puts life in perspective, its precious and we all assume we will live until we are old and grey, but in reality at any moment it can end so fast.
My heart goes out to her family and loved ones.
Yeah not sure these two articles should be together, especially with the death as a mere footnote.
Spidey-Dan,
Totally agree
RIP Katherine Chappell.
While I fully sympathise with the crew member and her friends and family, I still can’t comprehend how someone could think it’s a good idea to roll down their window when they are surrounded by wild apex predators like lions…
Anyway, GRRM has hit the nail on the head, yet again, right there. Sexual violence against men and women is as old as humanity itself and occurs during conflicts even to this day. And violence against women in general is like violence against anyone/anything, it exists… sometimes it is justified, often it is not, but it exists nevertheless.
We regularly group news items. This is no different.
Frankly we would not report on this individually because her involvement with the show was pretty small and we almost never report on any personal matters you may have noticed- only if they may affect the show. For example, an actor dying mid-filming.
A small note giving condolences to a former member of the crew is fine and not deserving of its own article, people die every day this is no more tragic or significant than the others.
Sue the Fury,
Then you shouldn’t have reported it at all, and certainly not here. You can’t simply disregard this as “a bit of news”. But that’s my opinion and apparantly not the staff’s.
Chimeny,
There is a reason that it is against park rules to do this, but people continue to anyway. Sad nonetheless.
What’s interesting is that Outlander (which i don’t care for but have seen) had extended scenes of graphic rape and torture to its main ‘hero’ in the season finale, and it didn’t attract near the outrage of a 30 second clip of implied rape on GoT. In fact, most articles praised it for how it was handled. I guess if it’s a guy and goes right by the books it’s ok.
I’m South African and it’s quite odd to see this story all over. I know it’s tragic and all, but apparently the girl was warned to not roll down her window and she did anyway to get a better picture.
I’m just glad they decided not to put down the lioness, can’t punish a lion for acting as lions do.
Pigeon,
Sadly true yes, but I am still baffled by humanities lack of logic sometimes… shame how it ended in tragedy but at least it wasn’t completely tragic (the lion wasn’t killed in return thankfully).
Yes I’ve heard a few things about that. I’ve never watched the show so have no idea what it’s about or who the character(s) in question are, but I did hear there was a male rape scene that was much more graphic/in your face than the one in GoT. And if that’s the case then I don’t know, for certain, why GoT gets all the hate and false outrage yet Outlander doesn’t… although I do suspect it might for the reasons you just stated which makes me want to laugh and cry and facepalm all at the same time.
I heard about the lion kill death the other day, but had no idea it had a Thrones connection. Tragic news indeed.
Glad people have avoided any Lannister jokes since it’s a serious and sad topic…
It’s sad that she’s died and my thoughts are with her family but millions of people die every day. The fact this one had a small role in GoT doesn’t make a great deal of difference in that regard. For the family and her friends this is a major event, don’t want to sound cold (and I’m sure it will) but for the rest of the world the only reason this is newsworthy is because of the tiny link there is to the show. Be honest, if it wasn’t reported here and at other news outlets would anyone have even known or cared?
The violence against women thing? Well, I think George nails it and do we really want to open that Pandora’s Box again?
Condolences to the family and friends of Katherine Chappell, how sad.
I’m glad it’s being reported on WotW. We have posts saying farewell to fictional characters who die, so a separate, brief article noting the particularly tragic death of a real person who worked on the show (however briefly) seems perfectly appropriate. I do think it is odd that it is being combined with the GRRM news…I don’t think it is insulting or anything, but if it is worth reporting, it is worth reporting on a separate article. News about the show, or an interview with an actor/writer/producer/GRRM doesn’t really belong in the same category as the death of Chappell. I don’t mind news items being combined in the same article, but this feels wholly different than an item on the show. Just my two cents.
I’m sure that young lady’s family is devastated and as a family man I feel for them and give condolences. Heartbreaking. That being said, let this be a teachable moment:
In this weird modern world we live in stupid decisions all too often occur without consequence as they would at literally ANY OTHER TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY, so let this be a lesson to all: get off your damn smartphones and pay attention to your surroundings.
Situational awareness people! You’re lucky to live in an age where you can be blissfully absentminded and usually get away with it. You’d last all of 4 minutes in Westeros.
yea, I went there.
yikes….
worst WOTW post of all time?
Pigeon,
You are completely correct about the scene in Outlander. It was rough to watch, and it’s worse in the print version…which was written by a woman. Double standard?
I can’t believe the response this is getting. People need to chill out.
May she rest in piece.
I think people are being too harsh on her, considering I see tourists in my home country of Canada (idiotically) taking photos of bears, cougars, lynx, and moose ALL THE TIME (and shouldn’t). I’m taking this time to tell all of you DO NOT STOP ON THE TRAIL, IN THE WOODS, IN YOUR VEHICLE AND TAKE PHOTOS OF THESE ANIMALS. THEY ARE WILD AND DANGEROUS.
The Lannisters send their regards.
Pigeon,
My thoughts exactly. The rape and torture in Outlander was way, way worse than anything I’ve seen on GoT and yet nobody complained. What is up with the double-standards?
Because she was young and thought herself invincible, as we all did at that age. I cringe remembering the things I did when I was young and stupid and am amazed I survived it all.
BTW her family and friends are probably reading here. Pls have a little kindness and tact. They have been hurt enough.
Sue, you do group news stories, but this one is different. If you aren’t going to do a post for anyone working for the show unless it affects the show, thats fine. Then don’t mention it at all rather than put it with a post about ‘violence to women’
Too soon man. C’mon show some respect.
Good grief………….
GRRM is right.
Condolences to the Chappelle family.
The rest of you people need to quit your bitching.
Really? Reeeeeally? You think in the midst of their horrible grief, they stop and check out the idiots on WOTW?
I get your point, but guess again.
… Outlander is the slutty little cousin to Game of Thrones…
Chrissakes. Perhaps a word of advice to feminine…types. Perhaps this genre isn’t for you. And by that I mean “gritty, violent, realistic”, perhaps “hardcore”. Stay away from reviews that contain those words or ideas. Stick to the more “high, hero, romantic” type fantasy/fiction perhaps. There’s some dynamite stuff there. LOTR might be a stellar example. I hope I’m communicating the idea effectively enough because there are more than a few writers of fantasy/fiction that write both types and if you’re squeamish about the grittier types you might want to avoid ’em. They are the ones that truly portray grisly depictions, repeatedly and sometimes quite often. Perhaps we can be spared the foolish questions about violence against women about stories involving sometimes quite extravagant violence against everybody, men woman and even children, sometimes by the buckets.
people are seriously getting offended because the news of someone who worked on GoT was grouped with some other news?
jesus christ, get a grip on your life. i cannot even imagine what little things offend you on a day to day basis
Really? George had to point that out?
R.I.P. Katherine Chappell. It’s really tragic. She was just a few years older than the people on my own VFX degree were this time last year. It’s such a close knit industry, I would not be surprised if a friend of a friend knew this woman quite well, and is now in mourning.
Regarding the other bit of news, it would be incredibly disrespectful to dredge up the entire dispute again here, in all its vitriol and its intensity, but I will say I have a great deal of respect for GRRM right now, for being able to sum up his thoughts as concisely and effectively as that. When you consider how much time and effort has been wasted on this “issue” (I am highly guilty of it myself), his answer really exposes the sheer inefficiency of most of our debating skills, if nothing else.
Lol 😀
So, so graphic. And as I watched, I had to internally shake my head at what I knew would be the comparative response: nothing.
My deepest condolences to the friends and family of Katherine Chappell. Her work has certainly not gone unnoticed. Rest in piece.
My bubble burst for this Sunday night’s episode 9. The rating is for AC/AL, no AV or SS.
This means they are saving the big you know what for ep. 10. because that situation involved a hell of a lot of violence and death. The Dance must refer to the ones locked up, otherwise viewers will scratch their heads afterwards. We will probably get a cliffhanger that carries over to the following week.
“My condolences to the Chappell family and to the friends and colleagues of Katherine, I know first hand what it is like to suddenly loose someone you are close to, in a violent manner.”
Keelin,
Yah – it was disgusting and I won’t be watching that show anymore – but not because of the scene. Just think the plot is too boring and repetitive. I appreciate GoT for the ongoing story (& sometimes bad things happen to the characters).
I feel like you guys that are criticizing are being a bit unfair. This was a catch 22 situation. If they had posted it as its own article, a lot comments would have complained ‘So what? She’s not even working on the show now.” Or they’d be accused of using the story to get site traffic. I think they chose to mention it with sympathy. It’s a horrible tragedy this woman died. Period. And they offered condolences on a site that’s about a book series/TV series and the making of it. Their intention is what’s important.
King Stannis,
Nope that was awesome
I wonder what it must be like to get offended by everything. Seems exhausting.
The whole Darwin award winner level lion idiocy is garnering a little too much attention. Signs, warnings everywhere, they even insist on the doors being locked as the lions can open doors…it’s like that Japanese exchange student that climbed over the rails at Niagara falls…really sucks for the family/friends but suicide by stupidity is hardly something to feel bad about. If it wasn’t this time, it would have been the next.
Matsuki,
Is the Darwin awRd winner presented in the same article as GrrM telling people to F off for a reason? The people who get offended as a hobby can focus on that rather than George explaining why sexual violence occurs in his books.
I don’t find it disrespectful at all. It’s a segment of a general news update post. She worked on the show at one point in the past. That’s her entire connection to this site.
Sue the Fury,
This is disappointing to hear.
Someones life is made into trivial footnote, all because she doesn’t work on the show anymore.
I just hope nobody responsible for this post was also all kinds of offended by Sansa episode. If not, all is well.
Ashara D,
Nobody cares about Outlander. It’s just another show on cable TV. They go after GoT because its on top. They only come after you when you’re big. If they don’t come after you, you’re not big.
Pigeon,
What I liked (nb.: not enjoyed ) about the Outlander scene was that it was a male-on-male rape. For all his claims of “realism”, Martin curiously, for some reason, fails to include these – and statistics show that in wartime, they are almost as common as male-on-female rapes. Remember that article from about a week ago about the rape statistics in the books? That there happens on average, like, one every X pages, and X is a really low number? If Martin wants to claim the “realism” defence, there should be almost as many rapes with male victims. Just try to imagine that.
It’s not that I’m clamouring for more rape, in the books or in the show – it’s just that I hate the hypocrisy. Especially from Martin, since he’s the one who has been pushing the “realism” defence since long before the show started. He should choose: either write realistically, or, well, admit that he’s writing a fantasy. A fantasy where women get raped, and men don’t.
(The show is actually somewhat “better” on this – and note that I really use the word “better” relatively. Theon was threatened with rape back in season 2 or 3, I don’t remember which.)
Yaga,
Nope. Male on male rape has not been as common in war as male on female rape has been. That’s ridiculous.
RIP to the former worker Miss Chappel
On the subject of violence against women, yes there’s sexual violence against women, there’s sexual violence against men too (Theon)
Ultimately GRRM is right, the stories are covering a society which is torn about by war and conflict, ultimately this means the norms and conventions of said society often collapse with it.
This is why the Beric Dondarrion character is interesting as thematically he represents the death of all of those old societal principles of chivalry etc
With this collapse a vacuum is created where all sorts of excesses occur eg Abu Ghraib, not just sexual violence but we have the Riverlands in particular getting ravaged and we have Vargo Hoat/Locke maiming people etc
This is why I find the Sparrows of the books at least interesting, as they are a revolutionary movement borne out of those excesses by the Nobility demographic and people have turned to the other major social institution of the Septs/Church for recourse.
People whinge on and on about the “slowness” of A Feast for Crows, but GRRM doesen’t just put the violence in ASOIF for entertainment, he explores power and society, the violence occurs in ACoK and ASoS and he spends much of AFfC through Briennes eyes in particular exploring the impact that has, and how it changed people and what its consequences are for society at large
Needless to say the Sparrows of the show is a dissapointed version of a power hungry self-righteous cult (whole thing really smells of Hollywood cyncism towards the Church). They had a perfect opportunity to introduce High Sparrow in the Riverlands last season in Brienne/Pod or Arya/Hound scenes to directly connect the two, eg the the simple religiousness of the Farmer and the excesses of Polliver and co as “Kings men”
As for Sansa in the show, worth considering sexual violence is a form of power projection, so in this case there’s an argument that Ramsay the former bastard is lording it over Sansa trueborn (and Reek at the same time) who is his and his dynasties only proper chance for being accepted legitimately in the long term.
That obviously grates as we could see from that little chat they had the next episode (a bastard legitimised by another bastard…) so his recourse is violence, and in this case sexual violence as he did for Reek
My issue isn’t its exploration of power as such, it is the fact it has butchered the Alayne ASOIF arc which I feel should have been integrated rather than relegated in favour of the Reek/Theon ASOIF arc but anyway….
So confused. Death is horrible. Death is awful to friends and families. But it happens all the time. I’m not really sure why this lady’s death is so special that people are getting so upset about. Of course I understand that this is a tragic event, but are the staff supposed to write long eulogies for every person that dies?
I thought it was really nice that WotW made a respectful acknowledgement to her. To the people who are saying “either give the news its own article or don’t report it at all,” …why not? What’s wrong with a little mention? It’s not being “trivialized” :/
Anyway, I’m just confused. Maybe someone can enlighten me?
Ghost’s Lunch,
A feast gets the short shrift. Brienne maybe a completely boring character but I loved seeing the result of the wars of the rich through the eyes of the commoners in her chapters
Having these two stories together is awkward at best, and there’s a weird thematic through-line that makes it even more awkward. I think in the future WOTW would do well not to lump a tragedy in as an addendum to a hot-button interview.
Edit: The comments are even more awkward. Heartfelt condolences mixed with arguments about rape….
By the definition of rape (generally, “sexual violence”) used on this studies, Theon was raped. Rape is more than just penetration, and frankly I don’t think there is a man on earth who would choose what Theon endured that day over penetration.
Chad Brick,
Theon has been the most extreme example of sexual violence towards anyone on the show, imo.
Zeus,
That’s a very common misconception, I’m afraid, and completely untrue. Here‘s a famous starter article into this difficult topic. The statistics are clear. Martin is not speaking to realism, and hence, he should not treat it as an argument in his defence.
e:
Chad Brick,
A very good point. Nevertheless, my point was mainly about statistics. Once again, there should be almost equally as much of male-on-male as male-on-female rape in the books. The impression I got from reading them is that male-on-female rape is ubiquitous; almost… permeates the tissue of the books, so to speak. But male-on-male? No. And that’s not realistic.
MYaga,
I didn’t say that male on male rape didn’t occur. But what’s most common in war is the rape of the female populace as a result of wartime aggression. Psychologically it’s most likely the result of being near death and losing the only purpose in your life which deep down is to procreate. Unfortunately rape has been a viable form of procreation since before we were Homo sapiens sapiens or neandertalensis for that matter. If I were a betting man I would say 100% of the human population has been born of rape at sometime in their past.
Well, this site’s going downhill quickly.
I’m not offended at the grouping of these two articles…but the headline could have been phrased better, since it makes the death sound like a joke.
Lifecycle of a WotW Comment section:
Outrage
Defense of the offence
Neutrals trying to bring sanity
Outraged continue whining
Defenders now outraged
Neutrals now outraged
Everyone’s outraged
Next story, rinse and repeat
Pointy End,
I don’t think many people are expecting a long eulogy. Basically everything that was written here in a separate post probably would have been the least awkward way of handling this situation. It would have been a very short post, but I think the problems stemming from combining it with another news item (especially this news item) outweigh that.
Pointy End,
Because people have nothing better to do than complain on the internet about things that don’t involve them or affect them in anyway whatsoever
150,000 people die each day. Its not a rare thing.
With people like you ? Absolutely.
Ghost’s Lunch,
I think the High Sparrow’s interaction with Olenna makes clear the anti-nobility, anti-class aspect of the Sparrows. “You are the few, and we are the many.” Maybe a line about how the Sparrows’ numbers have swelled since the onset of the war would have made things more clear, but I think most audience members get the appeal of a populist religious movement in times of conflict. I honestly don’t see a very huge difference between the Sparrows in the books and the Sparrows in the show.
And I disagree that their depiction is “Hollywood cynicism,” concerning the High Sparrow, at least. Most negative portrayals of the church involve a supposedly holy person acting very hypocritically. They commit sexual violence, they’re corrupt, ambitious, whatever. The High Sparrow enforces strict, unfair rules on sexual deviancy, but he doesn’t seem to be a hypocrite about it at all. I think that’s what makes him so fascinating. He’s a great mix of the good and bad of religion – the Franciscan-like egalitarianism and the intolerance for alternative lifestyles – and he’s a true believer in everything he fights for.
Terrible news. It breaks my heart to hear of such a tragedy. As for shutting windows, we all make foolish mistakes, but it’s horrific that such a mistake should be the cost of a life. I can only hope that her family are given privacy to mourn. Speaking about the merging of topics, I see no problem with it. It was a good gesture to report the news.
flintwielder,
I’ve made one post in the past week; too busy posting in places that actually offer quality discussion and avoiding the unsullied and D&D fellating idiots that plague this site. Didn’t make much of a difference, did it?
But anyway, who are you? I think the fact that you know who I am, but I don’t know who you are says everything. Ha.
Zeus – point taken…just mildly annoyed that it seems lost on the entitled “sparrows” in here chirping about being offended. Call me stoneheart but it’s no “tragedy” that a woman became “a feast for lions” due to her own pure stupidity. Getting hit by a drunk driver or dying of some sort of rare disease is a tragedy, despite being warned….rolling down the car windows when surrounded by wild lions that attack/kill people every year is just fatally dumb.
I won’t comment in your explanation of rape as some deep-down urge of procreate.
I’m sure though, that the rape of males is the last taboo of war atrocities. Something that happens and it’s not that rare, but it’s not spoken about. It’s like prison rape, which was taboo some decades ago (and maybe still is).
Male rape is been there for millenia. In a society which treated male homosexuality differently than we do today, like Ancient Greeks, you can read Homeric passages of “And they pillaged the town, and they took women and boys”. I don’t want to be misunderstood, the male rape hasn’t much to do with homosexuality, more with humiliation and domination, besides it’s also “common” that the perpetrators use objects instead of body parts.
As it’s the last taboo, I can understand how people think it’s very very rare. It’s there. And it’s been there. All the time.
Why is it that every time I drop by these threads somebody is talking about raping people? Doesn’t matter what it’s about. The thread can be about show ratings, and somebody somewhere down in the comments is all, “LEMME TELL YA ABOUT THE HISTORY OF MAN RAPIN’, SON!”
Jeez.
Renly’s Peach,
😀
I, too, don’t get the rape hysteria in modern society — or better yet, the interwebz. Yet another reason to stay far the fuck away.
BostonDave,
Yeah, except, you know, they might want to see stories where female characters are not only damsel in distress without any agenda of their own.
LOTR is a sausage fest there is only one or two prominent female figures and they certainly don’t have much impact on the story.
George always got this right, intelligent feminism isn’t preserving female characters and only hurting the males, it’s treating both genders with the same personal standards and scrutinity whatever the circumstances of the universe they’re in (patriarchy, total gender equality, or WoT-like : matriarchy).
The goal obviously being to show that nearly everytime the system is to blame and should be changed.
GoT/ASOIAF is a lot more female-friendly than the vast majority of fantasy stories, and that’s in big part because female characters can both suffer and shine as much as their male counterpart.
The criticism on rape in Game of Thrones is not about Martin’s, its about D&D.
Martin handled quite well, he make that people have a story and some character development.
In GOT, there’s rape, sex and (female) boobs even when it’s not necessary. Only for shock value. It’s something like “backround noise”. They follow the thinking of “what we do now? Let’s gonna put a whore/a rape/a threatening on rape/some female character nude!”. Somehow, they turn something as horrible and traumatizing as a rape as a funny joke or a meme (Littlefinger and the lemon cakes trap, anyone?).
-They sexualised female characters who are not sexual to the point they’re walking vaginas (Melisandre, Margaery).
-They erase or have less screen time female characters who are not raped or threatening with rape (Arianne, Alalaya…).
-They create characters for eye candy (Ros and Myranda).
-They priorize plots in which they have rape or create or modify plots to especifically add rape (Meera, Sansa).
-They turn feministic characters in misoginistics (Asha/Yara, Arya).
-They put sex as a reward for the good guys (Sam and Gilly, Tyrion and that whore…).
-And the overall sexist view they have on women in general: catfights everywhere, cunning bithches, Karsi killed by children, strong women fight with swords and don’t cry…
That’s the point.
You are telling a story about war? Cool. But show some respect for all the viewers who had suffered sexual assault or being blamed for their own sexual assault (almost all women in the world).
And sorry for Katherine.
Poor woman, that’s awful 🙁
Yung Wolf,
I’m sure with quality posters as yourself it would get better…….not !
Yung Wolf,
Oh look,he got mad people,what are we going to do ? It was actually better not seeing your vomit inducing posts this past week,too bad you had to crawl back from the cave you live in .
I’ve spent a hour or so reading up on male rape, and I have to disagree with you on this point. While male rape exists in all conflicts, and it seems to flourish in a few (such as Uganda) where it becomes a de-facto method of terrorism, I see little evidence that such high levels are the norm in all conflicts. Particularly, I think the evidence you cite is highly modern, in a world where things like the Geneva conventions have mitigated some of the kill-the-men, rape-the-women behavior that was more common in the past. Instead, the men are captured, tortured (including rape) and eventually released or conscripted. I am not sure if the evidence you cite really touches at all on anything prior to the last hundred years, if even that much. For example, I am quite familiar with WWII-era Pacific theatre issues, and I couldn’t recall ever reading anything about male rape in places like Nanking. I went looking today, and didn’t see anything at all. Instead, the witnesses were pretty clear that the women were raped in front of their male relatives, who were shot if they intervened.
Additionally, male rape seems to be highly concentrated in prisoners and children. The show features few children and wouldn’t show pedophilia anyway, and as for prisoners, the featured characters tend to be highborn and thus not held with the general population by low-rent guards, where rape would be more likely.
Also, there have been at least TWO male rapes shown on GoT – Theon and Tommen. You cannot argue that Tommen was not raped by modern standards, so if you want to argue Dany was raped you pretty much have to admit Tommen was too. Also, Varys’s story of the sorcerer had a strong pedo vibe, though he didn’t come out and say it. I certainly inferred he was molested.
I don’t think either the show or the books are as unbalanced in this matter as you are making them out to be.
SlayerNina,
Oh cry me a river,Martin pointed out exactly the type of people you are by these fake outrages,how about we care for the people who got horribly killed and this series shows a lot of deaths in the series,oh but i guess that isn’t important you hypocrite ?
Yung Wolf,
Just stay in those ” quality discussion” places and bitch there. i don’t understand why trolls like you don’t get banned.
SlayerNina,
You are delusional, in the books it is pervasive and casually throughout the story to highlight the brutality of the world. It’s not used for character development, it happens mostly to a bunch of no name or side characters or someone like Jeyne who is there to be a victim for Theon’s redemption arc. You are a fan of GRRM and his story so you refuse to see the reality of your hypocracy and will make excuses for him.
I have no issues with what GRRM puts into his story, my issue is not with content in his books but hypocracy from so many of his fans.
They have also desexualized characters like Cersei and Dany to an extent if that’s what you prefer in female characters. And really Margaery? If you see her as a “walking vagina” then that is your issue not the shows.
Seems like you are lost from tumblr, I’m sure your little rant will get a lot of likes and reblogs on there.
Also, your right I guess Alalaya is not threatened with rape, just stripped naked and whipped out in public. But again it must be okay because GRRM wrote it.
D&D have changed lines in the show before like “Your sister” instead “Only Cat”, what if Olly says “Forgive me” instead “For the watch”?
It sure looks like it will be Olly working alone, and not a NW conspiracy since i don´t belive this kid can be the ringleader of anything…
Yaga,
Even the article you posted doesn’t say they’re equal. So you’re flat out wrong. But theres a further difference in that it touches upon homosexuality. Homosexual rape. You’re confused and confusing. You’re sticking on using “realism” as synonymous with “accurate” as opposed to being more synonymous with “gritty, hardcore, violent, rough….”. He might be uncomfortable with homosexual rape and I’m glad for that. If you really want “accuracy” he’d have to do away with the warrior women, like Brienne, Ygritte and Karsi for instance. They wouldn’t exist in any “real” portrayal the way you want to use “real”.
You said it.
I thought that too until the repeated attempts to coerce a confession out of Cersei. They lost big points with me there.
I’m getting tired of the whole “that rape scene wasn’t even in the books” YES IT WAS…it was not only in the books it was 10 times worse and described in much more graphic detail than what was shown in the show…I don’t care if it’s a different character…Ramsay rapes his new bride on their wedding night in the books, just like in the show
Pretty much. That was my thought. That said, Outlander has way too much rape. first the heroine is almost raped by the villain ( as well as punched in the face and repeatedly kicked in the gut) then the episode where they flash back to the sisters near rape ( complete with male full full frontal…which in those specific circumstances was more than I wanted to see). That scene got drawn out so far it started to look as though they were titillaing the audience with it. Then they spent one episode torturing the hero and the next brutally raping him. I finally got around to watching the episode last night because I had avoided it because I’m just sick and tired of rape episodes.
That said I guess if your going to spend an episode on rape at least they spent their time showing the physical and emotional toll on the victim. The victim became suicidal over it and didn’t just insta-recover for the next plot point.
I love watching GoT and yet I don’t mind GoT getting criticism for its use of rape. The problem is GoT is pretty notorious for its use of female bodies as set decoration. How many scenes are there of silent, voiceless women standing around stark naked for very little reason other than they seem to think boobs and bush are decorative back drops. Those are there for the titilation factor and so it begins to muddle issues when rape is also employed on the show. The titillation titties make you side eye the sexual violence. Look at the Ros scenes where the other prostitute was sodomized in that brutal, brutal way. Or the shot of Ros’s naked corpse on Geoffrey’s bed riddled with arrows. Yes, Geoffrey was a sadistic creep. But the sadism is coupled with the shows tency to use naked prostitutes to titlate it’s audience.
And it’s an area where the writing gets clumsy. They didn’t get the difference in consent in the way that they wrote the Cersei/Jaime scene last year versus the way the show did. They just didn’t understand what the question me choices might be.
Dany was raped in season one and the Dothraki were constant brutal rapists on the show and the books. It happened a lot. Lollys is gang raped in the book and her suffering os mocked by Book Shae. Sansa is almost gang raped by the crowd in the show. Ramsey hunts women for his sexual pleasure. And now Sansa was brutally raped in the show and the very next week they stage a near rape of Gilly! In order to set up a love scene for her and Sam and choosing to make that the context for their first sexual encounter was a really weird choice. After a while it is just difficult to put up with.
As I said I skipped watching the Outlander season finale when it aired because I’m damned tired of rape on cable. Surely it’s at saturation level.
And yes Theon was raped and sexually brutalized as well. It’s not a contest. It’s all awful.
It’s just that it becomes oppressive for TV viewing when it become so brutally common on a show and it is in questionable taste when it’s in a show that also delights in using naked female bodies to titilation it’s audience almost every episode. Combining the two things in one show means that lines get blurred. And it isn’t wrong when some people become uncomfortable, point it out, criticize, or wonder why this has become such a go to plot device.
Why? That is how the medieval church operated, after all. GRRM and B&W are both showing that you cannot have religion without consequences, just as real societies show. All of the “bad” in this show is like that, as GRRM notes: people do bad things to each other all the time and then justify it by whatever means they can.
On a side note, I really have to tip my hat to Pryce’s portrayal: he nails that cold cruel look of a religious fanatic quite well.
You can’t have it both ways. Be feminist-friendly and have female characters that “can both suffer and shine” as much and then complain when they do indeed suffer as much. If you want to bitch about the “grittyness” of females suffering, or violence, or “realism” in the literature I suggest again you seek out the authors that write more of the “high, noble, romantic” type fantasies. There really are many of them. Also female authors whose main characters are mighty females and such. Some actual genre masters like mcCaffery (sp), LeGuin, Bradley, Lackey et al…
Wimsey,
You’re falling in the trap also I think of mixing “realism” with “accuracy”. The accurate portrayal of the medieval church yes, a real portrayal I would have liked is for the Sparrows to play it on the level. We’ll see how this trial goes, seven septons. I’m sure you’ll have your usual mix of the corrupt, the righteous and the middle “swing” votes. But the mere fact that there is a sitting trial is saying something good I’d say. The ominous note being struck by Qyburn(sp) when he said something like the “differing” levels of proofs between the Sparrows and the Crown, or some such. And belief being the death of reason.
—Actually perhaps on further consideration there was actually another tip-off in that little mini hearing of Loras and Margery which was a setup and kinda corrupt.
But that statement that is both realistic and accurate! After all, the part of the brain that we use for thinking is different from the part of the brain that we use for believing: and it is the part that we use to think that is unusually well-developed; the part that we use to believe is no better developed in humans than in chimps.
Seriously, you seem to be upset that religion is being portrayed in a negative light. Well, guess what: religion has been doing a great job of that for 10’s of thousands of years now! GRRM and B&W are using it here as they are using all sociopolitical elements: realistically in a world that is “fantastic” because of magic, dragons and undead, not in human behavior.
BostonDave,
In the books, the high sparrow tortures the Kettleblack to near death to get a confession that he slept with Cersei.
And also in the books, the Septas deprive Cersei of sleep (rather than water)
These guys go to the extreme
I get that the context of the Sparrows is lost in the show, but there is a damn limit to how much can be crammed into 10 hours.
Or he’s faking it really well. It would be so dull if HS and the Sparrows were just religious nuts that were lucky enough to be assigned a match against Idiot Cersei (vs whom no one could lose).
GRRM’s answer is better than some of the strained ones D&D and BCogs have given, at least. But yeah it’s a tired topic at this point.
The Loon,
Sorry I meant to quote.
But, yes, it is also true that the rape is in the book ( and I’d argue it is even more egregious there in a number of ways).
It shouldn’t matter that it is Sansa rather than Jeyne. Either way it was awful, disgusting, and stomach churning.
And, yes, Jeyne’s rape was more graphic (and she has even less agency and no character development).
I just wish we couldn’t have the conversation of ‘who was raped worse — Sansa, Theon, Jeyne, Lollys, Dany, etc. and far too etc.”
Rape isn’t a competition. They all lost.
Just a small quibble… While I respect people’s desire to express condolences to Ms. Chappelle’s family, the phrase is rest in PEACE (not piece). C’mon, if you have higher than a 3rd grade intelligence, you should know the difference.
Hodor Targaryen,
I should probably clarify, I’m talking about the Faith Militant in the blue robes rather than the Sparrows as such being made to be like a cult.
Sparrows are understandable, they are a sub-section of the Church/Septs who are extreme/revolutionary as a result of the war.
What they re-institute in the books once they take over in terms of the Faith Militant is the old form of the FM, that is to say the military branch of a major social institution, there’s the Knightly order and then the mass infantry order so to speak
FM on the show are made to look like nuts with odd tattoos engraved onto their foreheads, and they are echoing the modern religious intolerance to homosexuality, the evangelical early 20th century attitude to prohibition etc etc which isn’t necassarily the case in the books (tbf remains to be seen, revolutionary movements start out “reasonable” but quite often tend to go too far and end up just as problematic as what they replaced although in different ways)
Tbf though Jonathan Pryce is knocking the role out of the park. Looking forward to seeing him in the next few episodes. He’s the star of this season overall for mine
When I see it on the show I can’t help but see this over-the-top cartoonish negative depiction of the Templars and crusaders in “Kingdom of Heaven” directed by Ridley Scott I think it was for example. He did the same with Robin Hood, put modern concepts into an old time period
In reality though the Church in Medieval times was the social equivalent of the Judiciary today, everything had to be in line with God back then meaning the Church just as everything has to be “Constitutional” today
I’m sorry about Ms. Chappell. What a horrible way to go.
If you think that rape and sex aren’t deployed in the books for shock value and as “background noise,” you need to read the books again, and a lot more attentively this time.
Ghost’s Lunch,
I just don’t think there is enough time or context in the show to portray the sparrows with the depth they deserve.
Their stance on alcohol and homosexuality is incredibly believable…
I think the show is only interested in using them to facilitate Cersei’s storyline, which honestly is probably the best they can do.
They’ve given great work to Pryce, and his scenes with Lena and Diana have been some of the greatest in the show’s history.
Fienix,
They might have mant Rest in pieces, which is also appropriate in this case.
Chad Brick,
Good post. There are numnerous inferences to nonces in the books and show who like underage boys ( Pycelle, numerous septons,etc and even rumours that Doran Martell and Lyn Cobray could be although I like to think they’re not).
On the male rape thing. It is certainly more common as a statement is the modern world but it is still nowhere near as common as female rape in war. Rape is a power thing. If you have killed or physically beaten a man then you have attained that power. To assert power over a female then rape is more effective as killing or beating a woman isn’t viewed as being a particularly empowering ( weird use of the word!) act in medieval socities anyway so sexual dominance is an extension of the kind of mind who feels the need to assert power over people to make themselves feel in that position of dominance. Obviously not all killers kill for power and not all killers rape. What a lovely subject this is! 😛
Well it seems clear the Sparrows, and HS, are pretty clean. Just not spotless. I went from believing him corrupt, to seeing he wasn’t, to seeing well he might be a little bit.
Which I guess might be not only realistic but quite accurate also in this political thriller. Because once you strip away all the dragons and magic and the medieval milieu thats the essence of the story.
Along with the icy undead thats foreshadowed the entire story. But we’ve been apprised of their somewhat severe vulnerabilities now and they don’t seem the irresistible force anymore.
Shipp,
Others are able to write about this very complicated (and difficult to cover in anything like the depth it requires for proper analysis in less than about 20,000 words) topic far more articulately than I can and am I happy to leave them to it. I don’t have anything insightful to add, just wanted to say I thought your points were really interesting and well put, especially when comparing victims: “Rape isn’t a competition. It’s all awful. They all lost.” This is a point I think is often missed in the heat of argument; no-one will ever want to win the who-suffered-the-most ‘prize’.
I’m sure no one wants to. It was kind of a vacuous point.
BostonDave,
I probably didn’t make it very clear but I was thinking along the lines that people sometimes argue if person X suffers more than person Y, that somehow invalidates person Y’s suffering and I liked Shipp’s it’s all bad regardless of who it is reminder.
“her windows were down ” …………………………………………….
Ok, more vacuity. Theres the rational and the emotional. GRRM is known to be more brutal and dark. There are other quality offerings that fulfill the emotional and romantic. Don’t partake of the former and then complain about it. No one “invalidates”, just rational points being made countering the emotional complaints.
I’m sorry, but…wtf? I’m a woman; I’m a “feminine” woman; I love the shit out of this series. Being feminine has nothing to do with one’s sensitivities or sensibilities. “Sensitive” and “feminine” are not synonyms. For that matter, being sensitive doesn’t mean you’re going to throw a fit every time you perceive the opportunity for fake outrage.
I for one don’t think that showing horrific violence, sexual or otherwise, in its horrific context cheapens that violence. It should make one uncomfortable; it is uncomfortable. But relegating that discomfort to “feminine” weakness or whatever is fucking ridiculous.
Women simply are not the most rarional creatures. Emotional yes. That response points it up. Went off on tangients I never touched upon. Here its simple. Whats are the types complaining abou the Sansa non-rape or the notion of “violence against women” in this context? Now thats fucking ridiculous and maddening. If the type of violence doesnt suit you fucking leave it alone. Supremely rational and logical.
What is really ridiculous are the inane comments regarding the mention of this young woman’s tragic death in a safari park. You fucking boneheaded idiots……you’re bitching about the fact that GoT or WoTW didn’t write a separate lengthy obituary for her? Did you take the time to look in her hometown paper to read the obit-placed by her family- if they deemed it appropriate? The fact that she was mentioned on this site AT ALL is because she once worked on the technical part of the show. None of you fools even knew she existed before this. Why don’t you jerks motivate yourselves to look up the names and backgrounds of every person, in every country, on every location, on every crew either behind the scenes or in front of the camera, so that God forbid, there is another horrid accident, or even a natural death, YOU CAN WRITE THE OBITUARY and have it printed to where YOU think it would be appropriate, so YOU will be satisfied with the respect the dead person was given. I am astounded at the amount of free time you have to actually publicize your lame complaints to people you don’t know about a person you never met. GEESH!
HEAR ME ROAR!
The Sansa/Ramsay scene is indeed a depiction of violence against women. It is the people who complain that all depictions of violence against women cheapen and thus normalize that violence who are maddening. That particular scene was inevitable, and Sansa had much more agency than most gave her credit for.
How that leads you to conclude that women aren’t rational and therefore apparently cannot watch such depictions of violence and so should leave the show alone is beyond my overemotional comprehension. 🙂
Oh for fucks sake. How is “violence against women” even worth a mention in this context? Theres violence against everybody, men women and even fucking children. Is that a rational response to GRRM’s medieval fantasy depiction? Can you grasp the point at all?
BostonDave,
Really? How about this:
1. George specifically never points out anything in the show. He’s talking about the books. While the books have had their criticisms regarding the use of sexual violence, the outrage, as you put it, is targeted towards the show, which is a whole different animal.
2. The fact Outlander did not get this outrage proves just how clumsily GoT (The Show) has handled rape and sexual violence, and Sansa is, for many, a final straw.
– Outlander spends two hours if not more on, and promises to focus on, the assault on the male character. This isn’t a plot beat hastily assembled from the source material.
-It doesn’t shy away from the pain and degradation of the character, nor does it forget the act didn’t exist in the next episode (technically, it happened in the second to last episode of the season). It doesn’t make excuses for why it happened, it doesn’t try to say to its audience that this will make the character stronger, and while other characters react to what has happened – guess what? The most important reaction is the character who was raped.
– The showrunners have been honest and have gone on record as to why it happened, what it means to the narrative, and explain the great lengths they took to portray this rape. From GoT, we hear from the writer about how it twigged Sansa to Theon’s pain, from D&D, this was to get Sansa to her ‘lowest point’ and from Sophie Turner, we hear they planned this in during Season 2, and joked about it, and waited until she was 18. Since then, we’ve had Ros’ eroticised death, we’ve had Craster’s Post Mutiny Rape Hut, and the botched Sept Scene.
3. Sansa has never been raped – and for those book readers, they removed everything that made the rape the significant event that it was – no Northern Lords, no tension in Winterfell with the Northern Lords, no Spearwives (and Brienne waiting outside for a “signal” doesn’t count and is far more of a waste of the character than her viewing the destruction of the Riverlands first hand), and from Sansa’s side, no manipulation or learning. Nothing. The only thing they included from the books was the rape. And you can’t even try to say “That’s what Ramsay would do” because in this show, they established Ramsay capable of having a consensual sexual relationship!
And we also don’t see outrage of Spartacus, another show that uses rape frequently. So Outlander and Spartacus are far better at handling sexual violence than Game of Thrones = fact. If Game of Thrones can’t devote half the time it spends on pontificating over war and murder and physical violence to protraying sexual violence with any of the gravitas they give those subjects, then maybe they should lay off invented rape storylines.
And it has nothing to do with preferring “feminine fiction”
bostondave,
Sounds like you’re having an emotional response yourself. Maybe Game of Thrones isn’t for you.
Ill say again. Women emotional, yes. Rational, no. Did I read talk about this medieval fantasy story lacking a sufficient amount of “gravitas”? Duh huh?? Go crack a fucking romance novel. Then you can complain about violence against women and lack of fucking gravitas. This is not the place for those.
bostondave,
Gravitas: dignity, seriousness, or solemnity of manner
Treatment of Red Wedding: Gravitas. Treatment of Ned Stark’s Beheading: Gravitas, Treatment of Sansa’s Rape: Shock value.
You’re the one resorting to telling me to “go reading a fucking romance novel…..come back and talk to me about fucking gravitas.”
Clearly, you’re emotional. How womanly.