A Song of Ice and Fire author George R.R. Martin talked with Entertainment Weekly about the five characters he wishes were in Game of Thrones.
Martin says, “My books have a cast of thousands, so for practical reasons they’ve had to cut or combine many characters.”
*Major Spoilers follow for those who have not read the ASOIAF books*
1) Strong Belwas
Who was part of Dany’s entourage, I understand why he was cut, but I kind of miss him.
In the book series, Belwas is an enormous eunuch warrior from the fighting pits who joins Dany in Qarth.
2) Jeyne Poole
“She’s a minor character in the first book, then vanishes and then—boom—there she is in the fifth book in a major way,” Martin tells EW.
Poole accompanies the Starks to King’s Landing and later returns to Winterfell to marry Ramsay Bolton under the false identity of Arya Stark. The storyline was instead given to Sansa leading to some controversy amongst book readers.
3) Willas Tyrell and his brother 4) Garlan
And in the Tyrell family, Loras is not the eldest son in the books. There are two older brothers, Willas and Garlan. I didn’t just put them in for hoots and giggles, they have roles to play in the last two books, and they don’t exist in the show. I’ve said from the start I wish we had more hours, but showrunners [David Benioff and Dan Weiss] work 24/7, 12 months a year.
5) Lady Stoneheart
Unless you’ve been living under her Stoneheart for the better part of a year, you’ve probably heard about this one…
Lady Stoneheart does have a role in the books. Whether it’s sufficient or interesting enough… I think it is, or I wouldn’t have put her in. One of the things I wanted to show with her is that the death she suffered changes you.
GRRM makes an interesting parallel between Stoneheart and Gandalf, from The Lord of the Rings over at EW!
He goes on to say:
Lady Stoneheart is not Cateyln. I’ve tried to set it up beforehand with Beric Dondarrion and his repeated [resurrections]. There’s a brief appearance by Beric in Book One and he rides into the city and he’s this flamboyant Southern knight. That’s not that man we meet later on.
What characters would you have liked to see in Game of Thrones? Let us know in the comments below!
Manderly
Book Stannis!
1.Victarion
2.Jon Connighton
3.Young Griff
4.Moqorro
5.Quentyn
Will this finally convince everybody that Stoneheart is cut?
Brandon,
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
I still have hopes, though.
The Manderlys and the female Mormonts! And I miss the Great Jon. Basically the Northern lords/warriors.
For my money, the only two I really miss are Manderly and Coldhands. Maybe Arianne, given the fact the Sand Snakes has been pretty forgettables in the show (they were forgettables in the books too, to be honest). Before the casting call for next season was released, I had Euron in my list too, but fortunately it’s pretty much confirmed that we’ll have Euron in Season 6.
I so wish Manderly was in this. I’m sad about the lack of Jon Connington too, but Manderly is such a great character.
Belwas was too silly for me, and Jeyne Poole is best described as Sansa-ish in personality until she becomes a gibbering wreck. I don’t miss those. Stoneheart’s ‘theme’ was already expressed in Beric and later,
. But that character would be cool to see even if she’s pretty uninteresting.
Brandon,
Why would anything Hibberd writes be treated as ‘confirmation’?
Damn. Now she’s cut viewers will never find out that one’s death can have quite the impact on one’s life.
Jacelyn Bywater, Jon Connington
I do understand why most of them were cut, however, I still think that there would have been some ways to include both Willas and Garlan and put them to use. (The ways in which that could have been realized can be looked up almost everywhere on the internet, so I won’t further explain that).
Still, they are not a “must-have” and it’s better to cut amazing characters than to convolude the show, it just would have been awesome. A man has dreams.
Overall, I’m very content with D&D’s choices anyways, as long as GoT continues to exite me with the characters it has, I’m beyond happy.
I thought for sure he’d say Arianne. Interesting.
As a TV writer, Martin understands adaptation (sometimes better than his fans), and yes, I think these characters would have been interesting to see portrayed. But it’s both a funding issue as well as an attention span issue of TV viewers. It would be expensive to hire 4 new actors with middlin’ roles. And with the sprawling cast already, adding more characters would have been a tough sell (especially since Willas hasn’t even made it explicitly into the pages of A Song of Ice and Fire)
But Martin’s solution to these issues was for the show to take 4 seasons to adapt A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons. I find this… a touch unreasonable especially given the age of the child actors by the time that type of adaptation would be complete. But likely motivating GRRM was this whole feeling of buying more time for him to finish his series. Sorry, George. I love you, but you have to lie in the bed you made when you signed over rights of A Song of Ice and Fire to HBO back in 2007 waaaaaay before you were close to finishing A Dance with Dragons.
As to characters I miss out on:
– Harwin
– Justin Massey
– Victarion Greyjoy
– Jon Connington
– Skahaz mo Kandaq
– Val
– Coldhands
– Rodrick Harlaw
– Cotter Pyke
– Arianne Martell
– The Kindly Man
– Richard Horpe
– Qarl the Maid
– Wyman Manderly
– Robett Glover
– Barbrey Dustin
Unless this is the most elaborate double bluff in history, LS is definitely not happening. I so thought it would in episode 10!
Yeah, Jeyne is in the fifth book “in a major way” for sure, smh.
The Tyrell brothers, roles to play? Uh huh. Anyway. Good riddance, the lot of them. Same goes for Arianne, Quentyn and Tyrion’s boat companions. Also, Penny.
I agree with him about Willas and Garlan (who always seemed a hundred times as interesting as Loras) and certainly about Strong Belwas, though I understand why they have been omited on the show. I have never been a Stoneheart fan though. Other than that I still think that Arianne would have made for a much more interesting and nuanced Dorne storyline.
So LSH in episode 10 confirmed? LOL
Manderly is really the only character I particularly miss. And I’d gotten my hopes up after seeing a Manderly at the Red Wedding, too, which made it more disappointing. Ah well.
C’est la vie
sati,
Yes, this could all be part of a diabolical conspiracy between Dave, Dan, George, and Hibberd to increase the shock factor of the S5E10 Stoneheart reveal. Somebody should really make one of those X-Files I WANT TO BELIEVE poster memes with Stoneheart in the flying saucer.
Brandon,
Ha! These are out there already 🙂
sati,
Awesome. I really need to look one up then.
Harma [the] Dogshead
Shagwell
Balon Swann and/or Boros Blount
Val
also all of the missing Greyjoys, though I hold out hope for next season on this one.
1. DEVAN Lannister
2. Aunt Gemma
3. The Manderleys
4. Garlan Tyrell
5. Aryanne
Not too fussed about the Tyrell boys yet but I do wish they’d have done Loras more like his book counterpart.
My 5!
Victarion Greyjoy
Genna Lannister (well, Frey but it’s pretty much a technicality!)
Wyman Manderly
Tom of Sevenstreams
Balon Swann
Also had a soft spot for Dywen in the Night’s Watch as the guy always seemed a nice bloke to the good guy characters up there!
Brandon,
I mean, Ep 10 is titled “Mother’s Mercy” soooooo… still possible in my mind? I know that could have many many meanings. Fingers crossed.
The more people keep expecting LS the more disappointed they will get.
Just let it end please.
Put Sansa on mute on your remote or computer next time. That should give you a fix for LS
It’s hard to pick particular characters rather than just storylines or elements.
I miss the Kingsguard being something with depth- whether it be any named kingsguard who isn’t Meryn Trant, to Osmund Kettleblack doing Cersei’s dirtywork.
I miss elements of the Dornish storyline too (understand why they were cut and not everyone’s a fan!!) like Arianne and book Tyene and the Queenmaker plot.
Definitely miss Manderly and Lady Dustin and everyone Northern who isn’t the Boltons in ADWD.
Could go either way for Jon Con, Aegon, and that crew. Same for Belwas and some of Dany’s more interesting surrounding characters in Meereen.
Definitely don’t miss:
-Quentyn
-Aeron Greyjoy
-Lady Stoneheart
-Coldhands
-Penny
But that’s just me…
Coldhands – but we got Night’s King which is cooler i think
Quentyn – brave little dude, I don’t get the hate for him
Arienne
Wyman Manderly
Victarion
Euron (also Damphair would have to be there for Kingsmoot to work )
I wouldnt call Willas Tyrell cut, he hasnt even appered in the boks yet, hes only been mentioned. And they may visit Highgarden in future seasons and we maybe get to see him.
Euron is in. Pretty much confirmed by the casting call. Vic and Aeron… I’m almost sure they are cut.
winterisntcomming,
Nope, Loras is referred to as the heir to HG multiple times in the show.
winterisntcomming,
They say Loras is heir to Highgarden when they try to marry him to Cercei in the show, so basically he doesn’t have any older brothers.
Coldhands
Strong Belwas
Lady SH
Honestly, I’m fine with every character cut so far except for Manderly.
He was so fun and unique from every other character.
ALSO: Where are the Twitter reactions to Hardhome? Been waiting all day.
Me too.
God Dany’s arc is in dire need of character like Strong Belwas, it was a huge mistake to cut him.
I took a bit of heat last week when I said that LSH wouldn’t be in the HBO production. Whelp!!??!!
I may be the only person who wanted to see Penny, but since they cut the whole Tyrion adventure from Pentos to Meereen out……she is out and I get it.
Septa Lemore and all of her naked bathing 😛
Can I suggest the direwolves? Specifically Nymeria and the major story elements that she and Ghost have continued to be a part of in the books… that the show hasn’t even eluded to with Jon and Arya.
And on the other hand, so glad Quentyn Martell has been left out. What a waste of time reading that dude’s travels.
of course Lady Stoneheart would have been COOL, but on the other hand, it would just be another reason for stupid fuckin dummies to whine about GoT going “cartoony”. I take no joy in further dashing anyone’s hopes, but with Brienne off on her Northern romp and Jaime nowhere near the Riverlands, LSH is more irrelevant/impossible than ever.
Now Penny, on the other hand, is a sorely-missed presence… I can’t even imagine how they’ll cover up all the plot holes caused by her absence.
For reals though, I forgot to say Patchface in my initial post and he is maybe the one I miss most, other than Harma [the] Dogshead, who is the greatest character ever to be robbed of a page-to-screen translation.
I just love how he said ‘I didn’t just put them in for hoots and giggles’.
Davos’ Luck: Euron is in. Pretty much confirmed by the casting call. Vic and Aeron… I’m almost sure they are cut.
Im sure Aeron and Victarion is cut with Yara taking over Victarions plot.
I do not really miss book characters, but I liked Strong Belwas and Lord Manderly in the books and guess that an adaption in the show would have been nice.
I also had a soft spot for Quentyn, I liked his brave, friendly character, but hated his plot line so it is fine for me that he does not appear.
I will never understand the love for Lady Stoneheart. I would have preferred if she would have not been resurrected in the books, I do not like that cruel, grim zombie-Catelyn.
Regarding Jeyne Poole, I find the show version of her plot line with Sansa much better.
I am definitely happy that the show did not include Arianne, Aegon and Penny….
Me too ….. 🙁
I agree that it is often entire story lines rather than a character or two. For me, it is the Northern lords and their pretense of supporting the Bolton regime while dishing out Frey Pies and sneaking around in the WF crypts. Its not simply Manderly, Dustin, the Mormonts, the Umbers. It is the sum total of these characters and their plans.
As far as GRRM’s list…
Perhaps he shouldn’t have waited so long to introduce Willas Tyrell. When I first read these books, I thought that he was the one Tyrell that was worth knowing. At this point, unless he is Azor Ahai, I no longer care.
He is cut, in the sense that he cannot exist in the show’s universe, where Loras is the only Tyrell son.
Manderly, or some other Northern loyal lord, is the main thing I miss from the show (there are tons of great minor characters in the book, but it’s obvious why most of them can’t fit in the show), because I think that actual demonstrations of Northern loyalty to the Starks are few and far between (they’ve started talking about it more this year, but it’s been mostly that, talk).
I may be a fool for this but I still have a sliver of hope LSH will show up eventually. I doubt she will but I’m still hoping godsdammit!!
mariamb,
Yup, agree all around!
I also am crushed by the absence of Gillas and Warlan.
I miss Nymeria the most.
Seriously, the lack of direwolves grows more each with season and that’s the one thing that pisses me off.
Hmm. I think the ones I most wish were present are Lady Stoneheart and Coldhands.
I don’t much care about the rest. It’s not that I dislike them within the books, but I’ve always been readily capable of seeing the two versions of the story as… well, two versions. So it’s fine by me that they’re book-only. I’m sure it helps that I started with the show, admittedly.
Belwas in particular I’m kind of glad didn’t make it. Especially if it would still have been 10-hour seasons, yikes.
Yeah, OK. Totally adding Nymeria to my shortlist.
Sean C.,
Have they said he is the only son or the heir in the show? If he’s the heir then it wouldn’t be unreasonable to expect he might die therefore paving the way for one of both of his brothers?
TheTouchOfFrost,
In episode 306, when Tywin and Olenna meet, it is stated that Loras is the heir to Highgarden, and that Margaery is Loras’ heir (hence, Tywin’s threat to name Loras to the Kingsguard and thus make Joffrey and Margaery’s children the eventual heirs, ending the Tyrell name). Consequently, there are no Tyrell brothers.
Well, at least now we have confirmation that she is important in the books. As for who I’d like to see in the show, any lord who still supports the Starks would be enough for me. Not happy about how some old people and a 10 year old is all we’ve seen of Northern resistance. Not saying I didn’t love what we got, but it’s just not enough.
Ros Qarl Tanner little Ollie. Olyivar. Karsi
Did we ever find it who this guy is playing
http://m.imdb.com/name/nm6126651/?ref_=m_ttfcd_cl8
Been there since beginning of season and still is only one without a name or role for him and everyone else has one. Was maybe thinking varamyr?
Yes i´m sure we will find out what Garlan and Willas like to eat in the next books…. very imortant stuff George.
As for Lady Stoneheart, her being “alive” kinda took away from the impact of the RW.
Dead people should stay dead.
MeroVFX,
Ugh,Quentyn,no,just why,how can anyone liked that useless character ?
Shane Snow,
Wasn’t he the Baratheon general? We will probably see him in episode 9 or 10.
I only really miss Manderly, Lady Stoneheart, and the Freys having vanished entirely from the show.
Sure, sure, we’ll see some vengeance against Boltons I assume, but the Red Wedding was a Boltons/Freys joint venture. The North remembers more than just Bolton treachery…
The only reason i watch this show is to see when lady stoneheart appears if she is still cut by end of season 7 i am going to stop watchin this show i swear!
Patchface – Oh, Oh, Ohhhh
My main one would be Euron, but luckily I could remove him from my wanted list! Other than that, I mostly understand (and agree with) why they cut certain characters from the show. I would really like to see Victarion (solely because of his dynamic with Euron) and would’ve liked to have Willas and Garlan on the show. I understand why they were cut, but looking back at season 3, there was more than enough time and reason to introduce them then (given the marriage subplot).
IMDB has him listed for Episode 9. I think that it did say “Baratheon General” at one point but, right now, no character name is listed.
Did we ever get confirmation that they cast Varamyr?
Knight of Storm’s End,
Unless the fact that they’re older than Loras and could potentially end up becoming the heir to Highgarden is an important factor they could always simply make Willas and/or Garlan the cousins of Loras and Margaery. Unless they have a vital role to play I doubt that they will be included, but it would be cool to see them pop up in the future.
I’ll still be making arguments for why Stoneheart’s going to appear half way through season seven.
Left and Right. It’s disgusting they were cut. I call the banners!
JCDavis,
I never got the Penny hate. I would have done more editing of her dialogue in the book, but she was a great character for showing how much all this posturing and game-playing affects everyday people scraping by in a very tough world.
I really wish the Manderlys had been in. Frey pie!!!
BlackBloc,
David Bradley (Walder Frey) said some months ago that he will be back in Season 6. So don’t worry, Freys are coming soon.
I miss Manderly and Nymeria. In the books, the feeling of The North Remembers is pervasive and almost organic. I’m fine with LSH. All the bellyaching about her is kinda funny. It’s like, “We don’t want the fire god resurrecting characters from the dead!” Because, what, it takes way from the gritty realism of ice zombies and dragons???
Seriously? Never? I mean, it’s cool to like unpopular characters and all, but let’s be serious here, hehe.
1. Stoneheart, who’s a pretty cool and sinister character we’ve only barely seen
2. Manderly.
3. Jon Connington (and by extention fAegon)
4. Barbrey Dustin.
5. Arienne Martell.
I’m also really interested to see what happens with Willas and Garlan. This isn’t the first time GRRM has talked about them being big players in the final two books, so something big is gonna go down with them.
JCDavis,
Tarth Vader,
You’re not the only person. Penny is a pretty nice and refreshing character. She’s super innocent and naive, which is a jarring contrast to Tyrion’s bleak pessimism. It’s also interesting to see him try to help her out despite knowing she’s like 97% doomed.
Renly’s Peach,
Maybe GRRM will introduce the first Tyrell POV in TWOW
Chekhov’sOlly,
He’s said we’re no longer getting any new POV’s. But Highgarden’s court has been listed and mentioned since the first book (along with Casterly Rock, the only other place we haven’t seen but most likely will in the next books).
It’s a pretty good shot we’ll see Highgarden in person in TWoW.
You have got to be kidding me, right? She’s the Jar Jar Binks of ASOIAF. No, wait. Worse than that. Best. cut. ever.
My top5:
1. Arianne Martell
2. Jon Connington
3. Young Griff
4. Darkstar
5. Patchface
1. Lady Stoneheart
2. Manderly
3. Coldhands
4. Patchface
5. Dustin
Renly’s Peach,
I wonder who the POV in Highgarden will be. Arianne perhaps? I do hope George changes his mind and at leat introduces one Tyrell POV.
Cersei will probably end up fleeing to Casterly Rock at some point, so I’m almost certain that she’ll be the POV there.
Dutch maester,
Holy exaggeration Batman.
She’s a young, innocent girl. Chill out.
No, no, a thousand times, no! One, GRRM should have this written by now, or enough of it written that he’s committed. Two, GRRM needs to stop adding 3rd party PoV stuff: most of it has just been gratuitous world-building filler that detracts from the real story. Three, the worst parts of the last two books all came from new PoV characters. They didn’t simply add little to the story: in some cases, they actually derailed the story.
As for who the PoV is, well, there are several possibilities among the existing protagonists. Make it one of those: we don’t need to see Highgarden, after all, we need the story to progress, and that cannot happen when the main characters aren’t present.
Not missing Aegon, to be honest. It was a lame plot twist in my opinion. There are enough secret Targaryens out there for my taste, and it’s far too late to introduce another exhiled prince looking for the Iron Throne. In fact, had I been GRRM’s editor, Aegon had never seen the light of day.
Hah! Arianne is the Jar Jar of SoI&F. Penny is a mere Ewok.
Davos’ Luck,
I.e., you were one of the ones posting “He’s dead” since 1999…. 😉
Arianne was as dumb and boring as a rock, but Penny was obnoxious as hell.
The Long Night,
http://i3.examiner.co.uk/incoming/article9328837.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/GOT_MP_093014_EP507-4587.jpg
Looks like Left and Right to me, nice armor too.
Sean C.,
Did they specifically say there weren’t any though? I mean on a technicality, if Marg is Queen then her children would surely be in line to the Throne and not to Highgarden? Maybe WIllas being a cripple, isn’t deemed worth of being the heir? Also seems an odd threat seeing as the Lannisters have no one left to take their name forward. Not massively fussed either way, show-wise but be interesting if they left themselves some wriggle room.
urangutan21,
As a character he was quite likeable…just relatively pointless.
Penny is fine too. Not every character has to be exceedingly dark. If people hate her for ner naivity then they have to hate Sansa too!
Renly’s Peach,
I hope we do get to “see” Hgihgarden and Casterly Rock before it’s all said and done. Seem to be the only two major places we’ve not really seen any action in.
TheTouchOfFrost,
I also really want to see Storm’s End.
Morgoth
1) You should find a rock and apologize to it.
2) How was Penny obnoxious?
3) Go apologize to another rock.
Wimsey,
1) Yes, comparing a rock to Arianne must have been offensive to the poor rock.
2) Because she was annoying, crying all the time, asking stupid questions, being naive about everything, almost to the point she seemed out of touch from reality. Tyrion basically has to babysit her. Not every character must be a badass, but did we really need a character like her?
3) Again?
Manderly without question is my #1 missed.
One of Roose Bolton’s leeches,
Bah! They don’t look seven feet tall!
Actually, that’s a nice find. My legit list of characters that are missed include:
The Manderlys
The Mormonts (lady folk)
The Umbers
Lady Dustin
The Ghost of High Heart
Taena Merryweather
Aurane Waters
Genna Lannister
Oh, does Gendry count? 🙂
One of Roose Bolton’s leeches,
Think we kind of have, in the books anyway. Stannis was there for a time , with Edric Storm and it was where Mel gave birth to her first baby in order for him to take it! Also another character is planning to use it as a base of operations…as I remember! 😛
If Willas and Garland are so important why haven’t they appeared once in 5 books, George? How can you blame D&D for cutting them when they have been so irrelevent to this point and easy to replace with Loras?
As much controversy as the Sansa scene 2 episodes ago caused… I think it would have been a worse decision if they had kept Jeyne in the storyline and put her in that role instead. Then it truly would have been raping a woman solely to develop a male character which would have been pretty heinous, since she is just a prop as a character, even in the books.
Strong Belwas is a fun character, still, there are plenty of others in Dany’s storyline. Dany herself said he was the least important to her group during the siege on Meereen. Its no different here. He was the easiest one to cut when her supporting cast started getting filled out in season 3.
My top 5? Actually only 4 since I can’t think of a fifth one. Goes to show that I’m largely happy with the choices they made in the show, or simply am more okay with cuts in the TV medium than many other fans.
4. Lady Stoneheart
3. Wyman Manderly
2. Coldhand
1. Taena Merryweather
Just for brevity’s sake, I miss:
The whole Edmure Tully/Frey/Jaimie action…still hoping for that in season 6 perhaps.
Also miss all the trials of Tyrion before he got to Mereen…Connington, and Young Griff, and also Nurse and Penny. I would have loved to have seen Tyrion dealing with Penny.
Of course Lady Stoneheart is a big miss. Glad they left out all of the extraneous Greyjoy stuff though.
And yeah…..MORE DIREWOLVES!
Wyman Manderly. Only Ser Too Fat to Sit a Horse.
Davos’ Luck,
I think you’re right. I mean, they forgot Yara is even on the show, how can they be expected to bring more Greyjoys?
Morgoth,
There are a lot of rocks out there. You do NOT want them angry at you.
1. Damon Dance for Me. That is all.
Cumsprite,
LOL i see what you did there
All the northerners. Especially Wyman Manderly and Barbary Dustin.
The only ones I would have really loved to see are Coldhands and Arianne.
Glad Lady Stoneheart and the Young Griff storyline were cut.
Davos’ Luck,
Whenever I get excited thinking about where the story is headed in Winds of Winter I eventually remember this new Aegon plot and my excitement erodes. I think it was GRRM biggest mistakes adding that “plot twist” to an all ready sprawling and meandering narrative. The last thing this story needed was another player in the game that no one gives a crap about. I hope GRRM realizes this and disposes of him early into TWOW but that is unlikely.
Victarion
Moqorro
Damphair
TheReader
Maderly
BarbDustin
Belwas
Kindly Man
Shitmouth
TheTouchOfFrost,
Marg being queen would make her children in line to the throne, but also if there was no male heir to inherit her children (most likely 2nd or 3rd sons), would be able to inherit – their grandfather or king would just name them heir, maybe even have them change their name to keep the family name going. If i remember correctly, Tywin wanted to do this, since Jamie couldn’t (wouldn’t) inherit and he didn’t want Tyrion as his heir, he wanted to name Tommen as CR next heir (this was when Joff was King and b4 Tyrion went on trial). Tywin wanted to give Tyrion Winterfell instead, thus marry Sansa.
Wills being lame hardly prevents him from leading a normal life and having children, unlike say Theon, who will never be able to have children.
The Lannisters have lots of extended family, Kevan and his brood (Lancel, siblings? ) being one line, his sister Gemma(SP?) being another, and didn’t Tyrion have a favorite uncle that went missing in Essos ??) I’m sure their are plenty Lannister cousins to keep alive the family name.
I don’t get all the hate Penny gets…
Coldhands.
In his silence, “he” could have offered an intriguing counter-position on the nature (duality?) of wights and/or WWs. Could still happen.
I’m also a softie for Penny. 🙂
GRRM has an honorary doctorate in trolling. The Riverlands is happening.
Thank the drowned gods, the old gods & the new that fool got cut.
In no particular order:
-YG
-Jon Con
-Darkstar
-Coldhands
-Victarion
I would have said Euron but with that casting calls I’m sure he’s in.Hell yeah!
Man, there is a lot of GRRM hate here. It’s like Westeros.org, in reverse and on crack.
Awww ….No love for Vargos Hoat, I miss his Lisp!! 🙂
…and I will Forever miss Lady Stoneheart.
I don’t care that so many of you hate her, but at the time I was reading the books, she was the one hope for some vicious Stark revenge Now!!!
I even had/have a small hope that she would encounter Jon Snow and apologize for been a bitch to him.
And since I’m been such a Sap and whiner…
I HATE Ayra’s storyline since leaving Westeros… I didn’t want her to become a Faceless Man.
If she’d gone to Essos and met up with the Golden Company and met a secret Aegon, maybe even finding Syrio Forel there, that would have been excellant.
But I always wanted her to join with her Mum, find Nymeria and her pack of brothers and sisters, and become an avenging force in the Riverlands.
There! I said It!
May I rot in fanboy hell! lol
I also wish Obara was in the show.There is a character named Obara in it but she seems like she’s always on drugs.
What characters would you have liked to see in Game of Thrones?
Omar from The Wire. He’d seduce Loras and then make life hell for House Bolton.
“You come at the King, you best not miss!”
Abyss,
Hodor’s Bastard,
Yeah, I had nothing against Penny, either. I would not have included her for two reasons. One, there simply is not time. Two, it can really grate on audiences when arcs oscillate too much: and much of Penny’s involvement comes when Tyrion is going from rebound back to crash. (Particularly given the lurch in Sansa’s arc: one hiccup is enough, I think!) I think that having Tyrion hit nadir early in the season and then crawl back up (with a nice summary provided this week) works for the best.
Yes, Penny was miserable: but she’d had her brother killed because of the bounty on Tyrion. So, that was not a problem. Nor did GRRM write any filler for Penny’s sake or anything like that: I tend to dislike characters that add unnecessary narrative and/or who basically have storylines that are completely redundant with the one or more of the main protagonists. (And who are dumber than rocks, Morgoth: d-u-m-b-e-r! And much, much more boring: but as one of my degrees is in geology, well, I’m probably more enthusiastic about rocks than most people are.)
As for the cut characters, hmmm… Strong Belwas could have been amusing: but my guess is that his humor would have worn thin quickly. Jeyne Poole meant nothing to me: I had no memory of her when she “re”-appeared in Dragons, and as dreadful as her situation was, she still got me to dislike her in a hurry. I dimly remember Garlan being someone who stuck up for Tyrion, but I also recall it being a real bit-part: GRRM might not have meant it as a “hoot” or a “giggle” but if he meant Garlan to be relevant, well, he didn’t do a great (or even good) job. And I don’t remember Wyllas ever appearing. I suppose he might have done in Crows, but my brain refuses to remember any of that.
LSH could have been OK if reintroduced at the right time, which would have been in about 12 days. And that is, of course, assuming that she has anything “meaty” to do next year. Quite frankly, I expect that next year will be another jam-packed one. And, of course, they would have had to find someway to get her someplace that would have interested the audience.
So, really, the only character that I would have liked to have seen that was cut is Val. However, there wasn’t time, and I think that the way that they structured the Wall/North storyline this year was far superior to anything I would have considered doing.
Chad Brick,
Not true.People just have favourite characters and storylines and share their opinion.What they liked,didn’t liked,what they would have wanted,what they want on the show.It’s normal when you read.When I read a book I imagine countless scenarios.Including ASOIAF.Of course I have my own vision of events.And my own opinion about how the show should be.That doesn’t mean that I hate on GRRM.There would be no story without him.If for example some criticise him for not finishing the book that doesn’t mean they hate him.They just want to read the book,that’s it.GRRM will write as he will want to.Sharing thoughts about his work doesn’t mean you hate him.Far from it.
Chad Brick,
But with many more IQ points per poster…..
I am glad he agrees about Strong Belwas.
Or Captain Jack Harkness. We’ve already speculated on what would have happened if he and Oberyn had met!
Are you serious? Hate? I don’t see anybody here hating on GRRM. There are critics about some of his characters and plots, but in the end the vast majority of the people who post here deeply respect GRRM as the maker of this fantastic world we all enjoy. Now in Westeros.org I had read people claiming that D&D are mysoginists, racists, homophobics, hacks, arrogants, greedy, bad human beings, lazy, rape apologists, everything, just name it. That’s hate, my friend.
JamesL,
Don’t bemoan something that hasn’t fully panned out yet. You don’t really know what role Aegon will have in the long run.
Chad Brick,
It’s nothing new, just the contrarian counter-wave that has to defend the show and shit on the books at all costs. Most people and places outside this site prefer the books, so people here have to go against the flow. Nothing wrong with it; it’s quaint and refreshing, I guess.
I can’t believe we’re again into the books vs show shit.There is no such a think.Show is just an adaptation of the books.Show will compare with other shows,books will compare with other books.Completely different enviroments.What’s so hard to understand?You don’t have to listen to me,listen to GRRM.He said it again and again,the books are the books and the show is the show.It’s so simple.You don’t like GoT as a show?Don’t watch it.But claiming people here hate the books or GRRM is really low.People who are active here have read the books.Who the hell reads books that he hates?
Nimble Dick confirmed?
Get hype.
DONAL FOOKIN’ NOYE!….Nuff said.
King in the North Carolina,
O. Thank. GOD!
I was hoping we’d met a Cock Merchant!
Ser Gerold Dayne,
Nobody’s doing “show vs. books” shit. Calm down. c:
Fortunately, Euron is in :3
So, my top five…
1. LADY STONEHEART (though she will be in the S6 opening)
2. Wyman Manderly (those Frey pies)
3. Lady Dustin (that scene with Theon in the crypts)
4. Arianne Martell (even more after seeing Dorne this season)
5. the Green Grace (just ’cause she was cool)
And bonus (LSH is happening, so, there’s room).
6. Genna Frey
I need to read tWoW and/or aDoS to decide if I will miss Garlan/Willas Tyrell.
This pretty much confirms Stoneheart is in. Obvious trolling after releasing the latest episode title. We have seen WW resurrect a whole Wildling army. This is the moment to show the good side of resurrection! Also, Martin states that LS is not Catelyn. So another hint she’s in. But the biggest reveal in this is that Martin says he set up Beric and BWB especially for her. In the series, they were set up as well. For whom you think?
Welcome back my lade 🙂
Damphair!
I don’t ask a big role for him in Season 6, but I definetely want to see Damphair on screen, drowning men and drinking sea water afterwards. The audience will be interested more in the Ironborn, when they see something of their weird culture and religion.
I know, I know I miss Patchface!
And pretty much all the Mormont ladies.
Lord Manderly.
TheTouchOfFrost,
While I understand why they changed Loras with regards to the plot, it is still a shame. Only ‘characters’ I would have liked to see in the series are Manderly and the wolf pack (of which only the former was a realistic wish, too much CGI for the latter). D&D have done a great job of adapting the material without the series getting bogged down because of an overflowing cast. Personally, I have loved the Sansa storyline this season (that includes a certain expectation regarding the ending) and do not miss Manderly as much as I would have thought.
Regarding Martin’s picks, well, Belwas, while funny, is as inconsequential a character as they come. Garlan and Willas aren’t even fully formed characters in the books yet (has Willas even appeared outside of other character’s thoughts and comments?). Jeyne Pool is just another extraneous character that has been expertly adapted into the Sansa plotline. Only Stoneheart I can really understand him lamenting. It must feel like a bit of critique on his decision to resurrect her. Without knowing the ending to her arc it is hard to form an opinion about her absence in the series, but so far I think D&D made the right choice. Too many resurrections are simply silly in my opinion.
Renly’s Peach,
Do you have a statistic to back your point or as usual with book purists you are talking out of your ass ?
Abyss,
I agree with EVERYTHING you said about what value Penny gives to Tyrion, and that is her point in the story. People are quick to judge if characters seem to have little value, but this is prose, sometimes you have to look beyond the character (and whether you like them) and try and see why they were included, who do they represent, or who they affect. They have value, if only to help the protagonist grow.
I agree, they didn’t have time to add her to GOT, but in the books I think it was an interested contrast to Tyrion. He was at his most disagreeable during these chapters, drunk, depressed, self-pitying, etc… Penny was someone more helpless and pitiable than him and he was forced not only to recognize that, but also count his blessings.
Koempel,
Too many resurrections are simply silly if they are not explained and just spontaneous, but if they are a result of the wielding of (dark) power, I don’t see why those with the power don’t use it more, it is a tool. The Night King can convert hundreds with a wavy of his hands, but man (Qyburn, Red Priestess/Priest, other? )who have discovered the secret can’t use it more than once? It is clear those who are brought back are not truly brought back as the same people they once where, and the ones resurrected by man at least seem to be more than puppets. A few more might make it less silly, and more of a thought provoking question amongst the characters (or us) whether or not they are doing a good thing or not, should the power be used just because you can. With Dondarion, it seemed to be inspirational, even if the man himself was more than disturbed by his continued existence. With Stoneheart, it is pure vengeance without pity or accountability. How these resurrected people are perceived and treated could be interesting, especially by their family members.
Personally I was always curious how the Stark kids would react to their mother now, I always figured Sansa was the closest to maybe getting this reaction, maybe Arya if she returns
Tarth Vader,
Like
Character I miss (but one or two of these I think they could have crammed in for a couple scenes each)
Quentyn
Manderly
Genna
Lady Dustin
otherwise… well, it’s just characters I miss…
We cannot really say that they “changed” Loras. He’s pretty weakly developed in the books: the books show him to be pretty vain and to be gay, and that’s about it on the character development side. What they have on TV is well within that extremely general character.
The other difference is that Loras is an incidental (tertiary at most) character in the books, whereas he’s become a supporting character on the show. That means that the show has had to be a little more exact in his development than the books have been: but “cherry pie” is still consistent with “pie” or “pastry.”
Well, strictly speaking, it’s an adaptation of a story! GRRM is trying to adapt the story from what is in his head to the page; B&W are fundamentally trying to adapt what was in GRRM’s head to the screen.
But your key point remains: it has been called “adaptation” for years because it’s been known for a century that literary gills have to be replaced with cinematic lungs: otherwise, you get something that coughs and dies on land (like, say, the first two Harry Potter films).
-Jon Connington
-Coldhands
-Cotter Pyke
Umm, I thought he was going to stop doing new interviews and concentrate on finishing the fucking books?
I get the sense GRRM is just being a little more staunch in defending his original telling of the story. I know he is “at peace” with the show and books being two divergent versions of the same story (that should eventually converge) and has written countless times on this subject, but I don’t think you’d make a point about including Jeyne Poole in this list – for example – if you didn’t have some overall misgivings about the changes D&D have made. I’m not sure I believe he truly misses Jeyne Poole as a character – I believe he is subtly stating that the Sansa decision was the wrong one.
I expect – and admittedly this is a massive assumption with virtually no evidence to support it – that at times he is exasperated with some of the decisions D&D are making. Of course the money, recognition and acclaim all sweeten that pill somewhat, but I just get the sense (particularly with all the “I didn’t put them in there for nothing” kind of quotes) that he is starting to distance himself from D&D more and more and just remind people he is the architect of this story and hey, he does actually know what he is doing with it.
I believe him, because even if we haven’t seen Willas, his bachelor-status makes him a very important character for the future.
It also fits with the “younger queen”-prophecy. When Tyrion was wedded to Sansa, Cersei was supposed to wed Willas. In order to remain the Tyrell/Lannister-alliance, the final Lannister-spawn must marry into the Tyrell’s again, Loras is KG, Garlan is married, Willas is a bachelor still. And thus a younger queen will replace Cersei, as the spouse for Willas. In the show, Cersei was proposed to Loras, and the same will happen with Myrcella after she gets taken from Dorne.
1. Arianne (no Sand Snakes)
2. Quentyn( don’t miss his companions)
3. More Greyjoys. At least Euron
4. Val and baby
5. Greatjon
6. Manderly
7. Coldhands
8. Real Loras as shown in the books–I hate what they have done to his character.
I wish they had shown the familial loss Davos suffered with Blackwater, so that his remaining son became even more precious, but they haven’t done well by the Stannis storyline.
I’m not sure how I feel about the Lady Stoneheart absence as I didn’t like that part in the book, but that may have been because the Red Wedding really upset me, so I feared Lady Stoneheart. She might brighten up the show. So sure, let her come.
Ser Oromis Locke,
I doubt any of that will happen.
Look for the Tyrells to be driven back to one Targaryen or the other pretty quickly in Winter. And look for them to be done with marrying Lannisters, too!
Again, what have they “done” with it? The character is only weakly developed in the books. Basically, it is the equivalent of GRRM saying “pastry” and the show giving us “cherry pie.” You might say “I was envisioning blueberry tart” but I might have been envision “lemon custard croissant.” All three are consistent with “pastry”: and what the show has given us is just a specific character consistent with the very general one in the books.
As for the 5 I miss:
– 1. Shavepate
– 2. Reznak mo Reznak
– 3. Galazza Galare aka. Green Grace
– 4. Vic.
– 5. Barbrey Dustin.
1-3: Without these three, is there any real doubt on who Show!Harpy is? It certainly isn’t Daario (fighting for her against Harpies in Daznak’s Pit) or Missandei, so who’s left? Yeah. Tyrion in convo with Dany makes up for a lot, but doesn’t make right that it’s extremely obvious that the show’s version of the Harpy is none other then Hizzy.
4. Victarion Greyjoy: That family tree from the Season1-2 production books only says Euron as an uncle, and with Daario getting the 93-something ships of the Meerenese Navy, there’s no point for this smoking hand, monkey hating, badarse. I remember the battle of the Shield Islands very vividly in my mind, so I’m sad we’re not getting Vic, but of course we’re going to see a very rapey Euron.
5. Of all the Winterfell-characters, I felt like Barbrey Dustin was the most interesting. I know Manderly is a fanfavorite because of pies and for what he did for Davos, but I don’t miss him. Rickon is at Last Hearth, so Umber is yet again in and Davos won’t get a mission from Manderly to go to Skagos, and there’s a big chance Manderly is amalgamized with an Umber. We’re not getting Frey Pies obviously, we should’ve already had them. Barbrey Dustin on the other hand provided someone for Theon to talk to outside of fArya/Sansa. That would’ve been nice and it could’ve relieved us of seeing Iwan pull his Ramsay-smile too often. But like Meereen, they stripped Winterfell to the bare, bare minimum, with no internal plot with rebellious Northern Lords. With Brienne doing absolutely nothing for ages now.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Loras_Tyrell
biobi,
Like I wrote, “pastry.”
The final scene in the last episode of the final season will be LS waking up near the Red Fork, grabbing an acoustic guitar, and singing “I Have Confidence” from the Sound of Music.
Book!Loras has taken a vow that he will not have sex anymore after Renly. I think that Loras-fans take that as him being faithful, similar to Jon refusing Mel because of Ygritte. People would’ve been fuming if Jon had sex with Mel, forgetting about Ygritte so easily. Loras-fans feel the same with Loras “getting over” his King so easily in the show. It’s a legitimate critique.
That whole thing where they suddenly forgot he was supposed to be one of the best knights in Westeros, because the plot demanded he be a (very gay) victim? That’s not blueberry tart vs lemon croissant. It’s blueberry tart vs wilted salad. The wimpification of Loras is definitely among this season’s biggest disappointments.
If she is not included, it seems like D&D are just going to have to write fanfic to replace her role in Jaime’s and Brienne’s arcs, which are just as drawn to each other on TV as they are in the books. At that point, why bother? Just use the real deal.
And being “very gay” and the “best knight in Westeros” are mutually exclusive?
…this season? I’ve been disappointed since he dismounted from his horse after Blackwater. His atrocious conversation with Sansa in S3 still bothers me. They had a chance to mature Sansa’s naivete appropriately with some insightful, choice words about princes, princesses, peaches and the price warring leaders/families pay…instead they discussed broaches and gown designs.
viki,
I disagree with you, but it is simply a difference in preference (regarding my comment that resurrections are silly). I can understand why you do enjoy it/ are intrigued by it. I do have to note that I am not at all perturbed by the resurrections that the Night’s King is performing. These resurrected creatures are but empty vessels, meat for battle. I am talking about the resurrection of well developed characters (coming back as themselves). I feel it cheapens their death. Maybe this annoyance in me is caused by one faked death too many in the books (I am not only talking about resurrections).
Wimsey,
While Loras in the books is a tertiary character, he is a distinctly different person in comparison with the series. Most notably with regards to his faithfulness concerning Renly after the latter’s demise . In the series he enjoys other men after Renly’s death without thought. This already makes them vastly different persons.
I suppose so, but it reinforces that it would be more interesting if she hadn’t been, which is why people are so desperate to believe she’ll appear. And after all, they introduced Beric and his resurrections in the show. The cutting of Lady Stoneheart is also disappointing because it means that subplot with the Brotherhood Without Banners doesn’t lead to anything and has just been dropped (along with Gendry, apparently).
Probably shouldn’t even be in here. I guess I’m one of the “unsullied” but I kept seeing mentions of Lady Stoneheart and looked and its Catelyn reanimated? Did GRRM really use such a cheap and weak device? Whats death and dying mean if you can just reanimate? Who gets reanimated, by whom, why? Why isn’t the reanimator not a top dog with rich families flocking to him to reanimate their loved ones? Tywin for instance. Makes no sense to me and I’d be disappointed if they followed that weak ploy in the story. Of course there are characters we’re fond of but once they’re dead/killed off that should be that and move on.
I’m frantically trying to read up to the story but its not going well. I’ll be able to catch up I think during the off-season I’d certainly hope tho.
Really? REALLY?????? The only reason you watched through almost five seasons/years was to see LSH??? Was that all that Maester Martin wrote about through five books? Hardly. People who say that they will leave if this or that doesn’t or does happen?
One thing…..buh bye!
B,
It does lead to something if theories are right concerning
If not, well, then we just had an awesome fight, validation of the Red God’s power and a short/fun time with the Westeros equivalent of Robin Hood.
The latest episode title, “Mother’s Mercy”, is a phrase the Faith have already used this season. I doubt the showrunners are even aware that “Mother Mercy/Merciless” is one of Lady Stoneheart’s aliases. That’s the kind of minutia that we fans absorb and they don’t.
Very short.
That’s a negative evidence argument. In the books, we see so little of him that we have no idea if he’s got a new boyfriend or not, or if he’s had several. Again, given how weakly he’s developed, we would not expect to know: he is a tertiary character, after all, and he never discusses his sex life with any of the PoV characters. His only expressed “trueness” to Renly is that he refuses to denounce the idea that Renly would have been the best king of the lot of them. (And, actually, he probably is correct: but that is another matter.) He never says that he’s not seeing other men. Moreover, Book!Loras never put in a position where his status and station are jeopardized by not renouncing his old lover.
So, again: pastry vs. cherry pie vs. blueberry tart. Just because some book readers imagine that Loras is being true to Renly beyond the grave does not make it actually part of his character. (For myself, I suspect that he would have moved on pretty quickly: young men do, after all.)
This gave me a nice giggle this morning!!
Chad Brick,
Or the role can be cut completely. It is highly improbable at this point that it will contribute anything to the story, and it probably will be a weak (and non-unique) contribution to the overall plot.
One can see from posts like that that a lot of people thought it was a really great, exciting thing that happened in the books that added to the color of the story, up there with Dany’s dragons.
Yup….but on another topic, why not just return those Silmarils and we can call it even for your lack of Penny love!!
Indeed, I am a fan, and I have no memory of LSH being called that. Really, its something that some hardcore fans might catch, and that’s about it.
The Brotherhood was not really a subplot: instead, it was a backdrop for Arya’s story. As it did not include any main characters, the storytellers are not obliged to go anywhere with it. In the books, it is only relevant when a lead character stumbles onto to it: otherwise, it’s just stuff happening.
As for Resurrections, people are looking at this too specifically. It is not “resurrection” per se that is important: it is that Red Priests have real powers. Having seen this, we should not be surprised to see Melissandre do truly powerful things in the future. Think of it as less a gun being put on the wall and more of bags of gunpowder being put on the wall.
JCDavis,
Morgoth just hates little people for what they did to his padawan.
Wimsey,
He actually does discuss his sex life with other characters.
To Tyrion he clearly states he is not interested in a new marriage of love with his famous sentence ‘When the sun has set, no candle can replace it.” Additionally he tells Jaime “I will never betray Renly, by word or deed. He was the king that should have been. He was the best of them.” Taken together these two quotes paint a picture of a grief stricken man vowing not to betray his lover and king in word or deed. I do assume you will spin these quotes into supporting your argument, have fun with that, but I truly believe Martin’s intent here was different than your interpretation (which is your prerogative).
Wimsey,
Which reminds me, I wish they had shown Melisandre using a fireball in the battle last season like in the book.
We aren’t talking about “love”: we are talking about “sex;” those are quite different things for everyone, and possibly to young men more than anybody. The fact that Loras is gay would make him no less prone to this. Now, Loras is not supposed to be in love with Olyvar on the show. Thus, Loras having a casual fling with Olyvar is completely consistent with those lines in the text.
So, again, pastry vs. cherry pie vs. blueberry tart. This has nothing to do with “twisting words”: this has to do with the fact that the spaces between the lines are so vast here that lots of things fit into it. It is not that your interpretation is inconsistent with the very vaguely developed character from the books: it is that there are dozens of other interpretations that are equally sound.
Another laugh out loud moment!! Thanks.
B,
Eh, toasting eagles would make her less popular with the viewing audience. Toast a 1000 wildlings? No problem: but hurt an animal, and the howling gets loud!
That written, they could have had Mel do some show of power. Of course, they might be sticking with the premise that she needs some sort of sacrifice to make her magic really go.
Bruce Jenner’s new name is Caitlyn.
LS confirmed!
Five characters (in no particular order and among many others) that I’d like to see on-screen (I completely understand why some of these folks wouldn’t make it in):
1. LS (They can’t just spring this on us. All sullied viewers would see it coming during the episode’s ‘previously on’ segment. They’d have to show Thoros resurrecting Beric.)
2. Tytos Blackwood (and the location of Raventree, for selfish reasons)
3. Wyman Manderly (especially his “meat” pies)
4. Darkstar (because he’s supposed to be awesome)
5. Genna Lannister
HM. Barbrey Dustin
Hmm, did you miss out on the entire Brotherhood without Banners story? Beric Dondarion in the show was resurrected. Six times.
LSH’s existence is the whole purpose of the BwB’s storyline. The fact that D&D dropped it completely (where’s Gendry?) after S3, just after they got in touch with GRRM’s Master End Game Plan, is proof enough that LSH is gone gone gone from the show.
Because what comes back is not the original person, as was shown in the show with Beric. It burns away large chunks of who you were to go through the process.
I don’t know how you guys cope with the “Previously on…” segment. It must telegraph exactly where the episode is going. It’s completely unnecessary; they should give viewers the benefit of the doubt. Even if they don’t get every last detail, so what? Better that than be spoiled before the show’s even started. Very glad they do not have that in the UK.
The only way this can be construed as a vow of chastity is if you’re ramming in a lot of assumptions about casual sex being a form of treason of love. That’s not canon, that’s interpretation.
Viewers would not give them the benefit of the doubt if HBO did not do this. If the typical viewer gave a presentation to colleagues/boards/students/whatever and he/she did not recap the important points of the prior presentation, then he/she would get skewered. He/she would skewer a colleague who did the same. Why would they treat their TV any differently?
Exactly! The book says pastry, one reader sees cherry pie and another reader sees blueberry tart.
Actually, the primary point was to provide another stumbling block for Arya’s attempted escape, and to create a situation where she gets stuck with the Hound. The other stuff is more important for developing the Red Church than it is for setting up LSH. If LSH never had appeared, then we would not point at that text and say: “that was filler.” (This is not to say that the Brotherhood does not also set up LSH: the Brotherhood just serves at least three purposes in the book.)
Up thread someone said that people who are pretty damned sure that LSH will not be in the television version of GoT’s were haters of LSH. I am not a hater, I am a realist. The old adage, if ten coon dogs are barking up the same tree, there is a fairly good chance there is a coon in that tree, comes to mind. Had they included her, all good, but they didn’t and they say they won’t and that has nothing to do with hating on any character. Phew…. stop with the silly knee jerk response to posters who are trying to make sense of this LSH craze.
For the Penny pushers. I think she was a great foil for Tyrion. Through the whole of book nor television show does anyone really show Tyrion pretty much anything at all….he knows what he knows and how he was raised as the unwanted child of the Lannister family and now comes along the shy and very abused dwarf Penny and I think it causes him to see life a bit broader than just himself. Remember he is wallowing in self pity pretty much from the time he lands in Essos. Penny was good for him. So that is why I like Penny and I am sorry, but really is there anyone that wouldn’t want to see Tyrion ride a pig? LOL. Tyrion is my favorite character of both books and television….Peter Dinklage is my God *avoids lightening strikes falling like rain* But damn, I laugh out loud inside (is that possible?) when I think of him riding a pig.
I am okay that the whole sequence was cut and the showrunners got him straight to Meereen. That would have been time spent and wasted that has been spent on more valuable and pertinent story arcs, ummmm. Sort of like LSH for me.
Resurrection isn’t a sure thing. Thoros doesn’t know why he — the drunken fool who only says the words — is the conduit for Beric. Book Beric pays a huge price for attempting to resurrect another. And Mel was shocked that Thoros was able to do it.
As we saw in Hardhome, the King of the Walkers can mass resurrect, but what exactly is he resurrecting? Certainly not who the deceased was in life.
JCDavis,
Well, I’ll go there: why should there only be ONE ‘little person’ with a major presence on the show? Diversity, people, diversity! (I’m not even sure I’m joking; every other group seems to be lobbying for inclusion.)
I loved Penny’s assertion — counterintuitive though it may seem — that no one really taught Tyrion how to be a dwarf; that is, a dwarf who wasn’t a Lannister (or some other lord).
Time constraints being what they are, I can see why she’s not on the show, though, and for all the other reasons the haters mention.
Even if she had been on the show, we never, never, ever would have seen Dinklage (or a stuntman) riding a pig. The showrunners don’t even like horses that much! Bart the Bear was reportedly a diva (wouldn’t come out of his dressing room, er, cage). Ser Pounce wouldn’t hit his mark. Pigs might not be any more reliable. Riding a Great Dane would have been the more likely approach.
Dinklage, to his credit, has avoided most roles that poke fun at dwarfs in stereotypical ways. He apparently even asked the showrunners (or such is the lore) whether Tyrion would have one of those LOTR dwarf beards.
Alas, Penny must live on only in our imagination until TWOW comes out.
Because it’s entertainment not a presentation. I’d rather be completely surprised (and one could argue more entertained) than given pointers on what’s coming. It certainly seems to work ok without the previously on (for non book readers too)
Moreover, cutting that stuff let them show Daeny & Tyrion sit down and hash out a truce and an alliance in the same episode that Jon was forging a truce and an alliance with the Wildlings. Parallelism is a very powerful tool in storytelling (stories arise from parallels, after all): and it’s tough to see how they could have done that if Penny had taken up screentime.
All entertainment is presentation: and much of how effective entertainment is comes from the presentation. When we criticize a movie for having too slow (or too fast) a pace, or criticize a book for having filler, we are criticizing the presentation and stating that bad presentation decreased how effectively the book/movie will entertain most people.
Now, audiences want surprises. However, they do not want non-sequitors, they want “shifts.” Someone who has not read the books would not guess exactly what is coming from the opening scenes: but they are reminded of things that they last saw a while ago, and thus will better understand what they are seeing over the next 60 minutes.
Wimsey,
And really, those who don’t want to be “spoiled” by Previously on can easily skip the segment. No one is being forced to watch it after all. Book/show fanatics, like our esteemed little group here, generally don’t need it because we know almost everything there is to know. Needless to say, 95% of the viewers out there aren’t nearly as dedicated (or even skipped an essential episode or three) and require a quick reminder to bring them up to speed.
viki,
I’d have thought thye’d focus on other branches of the Tyrell family for Highgarden ubt I guess Loras is still being kept around to take on Garlan and Willas’s role. Shame as I think the Kingsguard stuff was the most interesting he got in the books.
I think the Lannisters are getting a bit thin on the ground. Genna is still a force but she’s technically a Frey and other than that there’s only really Daven Lannister until they find (if they find)Tyrek and Martyn grows up or Gerion Lannister is miraculously still alive!
Koempel,
Although the Sansa storyline has been good this season( although I maintain the means of getting her to Winterfell as a plotline was ridiculous) , I too would still have liked some Frey Pie!
Ross,
I agree, which is why I don’t watch the “previously on” segment. I tune in at about 9:03, usually in the middle of the title sequence.
The showrunners said something about animal cruelty laws preventing them from doing the pig/dog jousting in the books, although I don’t think that’s why Penny was scrapped.
The show has pretty much lost Tyrion’s arc of being treated as a dwarf without the benefit of his Lannister name, apart from having his head rubbed by the brothel bouncer and facing the possibility of being murdered to yield a lucky trinket. He doesn’t have to become entertainment to survive, he doesn’t have to take lessons in how to bow and scrape so that those more powerful can’t hurt him, he doesn’t have to learn how to be a slave. It’s all pretty much glossed over, although given all the whining from the unsullied about how slow Tyrion’s arc has seemed in the show, there clearly wasn’t room for it. In its stead, it seems like the writers have made TV Tyrion a little more sympathetic to the plight of the commoners.
I remember a British Downton Abbey parody a few years back mocking “Previously on” segments and saying they were “for idiots.”
I don’t know if it’s still the case, but for a while the “previously on” segment were posted ahead of the episode’s airing on Youtube. It was a good hint as to what was coming.
Where have they forgotten that? He was in the first line at the Blackwater (like in the books), technically won the tourney in season 1 (like in the books) and was only defeated by Brienne in the tourney in season 2 (like in the books).
M,
Look at it this way: every series like this uses the “previously on X” segment, and they all have for over a decade. When you are an adaptive peak, do not move!
JCDavis,
I’m pretty sure that was snark. After the end of Season 7 we will all have stopped watching, since that’s the (scheduled) series finale. 🙂
urangutan21,
Statistics on what? Whether or not most people prefer the books over the show?
Yeah, go out more. Explore the sights. Leave your bubble and you shall see the truth, child.
Rodrik the Reader,
Ser RtReader
I understand what Mister Dinklage says and feels about dwarfism being primarily used in movies or television or even literature when an “exaggerated little person is called for” – like the 7 dwarves or even in Tolkienverse. But I think handled sensitively (as I think it could have been done with Penny) learning about how or what it is like growing up as a little person is, from a different perspective other than Tyrion….(I am strictly speaking show reference here) it could have been helpful, maybe a PSA even to some degree.
Of course it is all history now…and I WOULD rather see Tyrion with Danys and what will happen there.
Now about that pig riding……. 😉
Do you mind me knighting you??? I like your title of Ser RtReader. But if you don’t I can change that easily enough.
Strong Belwas I couldn’t care less about.
Jeyne was definitely needed. Not just her but the entire cast of Northern lords but all we had was an old stuck up maid who got flayed. The rising tension and the frustration of Reek chapters are missing entirely.
Stoneheart was needed given their alternative has been the “diplomatically sensitive mission” in Dorne…
Willas and Garlan….hard to say without reading the books.
Both Arianne and Aegon should have been in it as well.
1. Jon Connington (I hate YG, bt I like JK)
2. Wyman Manderly
JCDavis,
A knighthood is dandy! Gives me hope that I can one day earn the right to be called King Rodrik, First of His Name, etc.
(Or, per Tyrion, perhaps I should want something else…)
And don’t worry about our favorite diminutive female entertainer and her genus Sus ungulate co-star. Penny and Pretty Pig will one day live on in animated musical form when Disney acquires the ASOIAF universe somewhere down the King’s Road of time.
Rodrik the Reader,
Ser RtReader
Oh by the old Gods and the new say it ain’t so….
WE’VE BEEN PIXAR’D!!
As for chatcters I miss.
-belwas
– patchface
-hyle hunt
– dick crab
-duck field
-haldon half maester
-septa Lemore
-arianne
-skahaz mo kandaq (shavepate)
-Tom o sevens
-harwin
– ghost of high heart
– Miranda Royce
-brown Ben
– Val
– taena merriweather
-peaches at Stoney sept
– book daario
-book sandsnakes
-and of course Darkstar
But most of all I miss that the plot line cut like faegon and greyjoys
1: When he was “arrested”. Book Loras would have brain-splatted those wimps who took him.
2: Who does either the Faith or Cersei have that could touch him in trial by combat? If you read the books, I assume you remember how Cersei plotted to keep sure that Loras wouldn’t be able to defend Margarey. TV-Cersei completely ignored the fact that Loras destroy anyone she could send at him.
Loras’s portrayal was great the first few seasons. They’ve thrown him under the bus to service idiot-Cersei’s plot this season.
One thing that their non-inclusion messes up is that Roose is exactly right – they should just sit still and let Stannis freeze and starve. In the books, Winterfell was a volatile cocktail of people who hated each other, and was neither sustainable or stable. Roose had to relieve the pressure somehow, and thus he sent out the Frey/Manderly forces. On TV, none of this tension is there, so why not just sit back and chill?
1. The first thing the Faith did was grab his arms so he wouldn’t be able to use his sword. Loras is only strong with a sword in his hand.
2. Robert Strong
Wimsey,
As long as they’re not on my blu rays they can go nuts with them! 😛
Chad Brick,
Young Dragon,
Loras isn’t a very good swordsman to be honest. His brother Garlan is talented in that regard. Loras is a jouster: He even admits so. Although he’s decent with a sword there are plenty in Westeros and beyond who would destroy him quite quickly in a duel.
Character I would have liked to see more of:
Mord.
Yes, yes we got him in 105 & 106, but that is not nearly enough screen time for such a smart man.
hahaha – very well said
TheTouchOfFrost,
I don’t know that we have any good idea of how swordsman rank. However, Loras must know that Cersei could arrange for some very good opponents for the Faith to use.
The other issue is that they have not given him the option of fighting to get out. Moreover, it is a plea that tacitly says “I have no other way to exonerate myself.” Until Olyvar turned up, all they had was hearsay, after all.
TheTouchOfFrost,
Heh, yeah, but you do not need them when binge-watching. It is week-to-week watching where I find them useful. A lot if these shows bring characters back after multiple years away, and I would never remember who they are without the opening segments.
To those who liken Loras Tyrell’s character to a blueberry tart,
I would say that the biggest change for the negative has been his betrothal to Cersei.
First of all, it’s an utterly ridiculous match. In the show world, she would barely be considered fertile, let alone someone the Tyrell’s would want to trust their entire family line with. (Even more so in the books, where he’s only supposed to be 17, but that’s obviously not relevant)
Secondly, by not immediately joining the Kingsguard in the wake of Blackwater, he basically had no purpose in the show, other than as comic relief everytime he tried to make small talk with Cersei.
Thirdly, if Loras had joined the KG, which includes the chastity vow and such, he could have been included in a bunch of scenes guarding Margaery and Joff/Tommen, thus reinforcing his role and proximity to Marg/J/T.
Finally, we don’t get any scenes with Jaime in his role as LC of KG, questioning his brothers about their roles in the Purple Wedding, and ending with some nice bits of snark from Loras, with Jaime reflecting how much of himself he sees in Loras. This is a net loss for both Jaime and Loras.
Matty C,
Most of this is irrelevant to character development: it has no bearing on who Loras is as a person. The one bit that does has substitutes elsewhere for both Jaime and Loras. As for Loras being largely irrelevant, well, he is badically a teriary character in the books: and tertiary characters are important for what they do, not who they are. Loras’ character development has no impact on the story, which is why GRRM did mot provide much with which B&W could work.
The big problem is that people are imagining a character that is not specified.
Wimsey,
So, tertiary characters are important for what they do, not who they are, but somehow Loras “doing” completely different actions in the show (in seasons 3-5) doesn’t=D&D have changed his character..?
Did I about get it right, according to you? You can certainly argue that Loras is tertiary, and also that his character development is not important to the story of ASOIAF. What I don’t think you can say is, “Loras is tertiary, which means what he does is important, but even though he’s doing completely different things, I don’t think there’s any difference.” What?!?
You really don’t think Loras suffering through a two year engagement to a woman he can’t stand, isn’t physically attracted to, and who constantly belittles him, versus joining the KG to protect and be closer to his sister, whom he rightfully understands is in a nest of vipers at KL, is “irrelevant to his character development”? That is a huge change.
I’m not even saying it’s a bad change, this season has worked out nicely, but don’t deny that he is on a different path.
It’s true that Cersei’s chances of getting another child at this point are pretty bad (not impossible, but still) and Olenna adresses that in the show. And you’re right, it’s best for two Houses to have a bloodline together, but a tie by marriage is also pretty useful. Besides, if Cersei can’t get pregnant again, Loras could always legitimatize a bastard, he wouldn’t even have to make it official, because “mommy” is the mommy of the King. 😉
Morgoth,
I’m serious. Everyday people in this world generally have no names. As I said, I would have edited her dialogue much more stringently, but she served a purpose as a character. I liked how she functioned with Tyrion and how she helped his development when he wasn’t a very likeable character.
Matty C,
That is correct: it is what tertiary characters do that affects the main characters that is important in a story. So, the only thing that is important is that the deeds or comparable deeds be done: who does them is largely immaterial. (Off the top of me head, I am hard pressed to think of anything that Loras does in the books that is very important in the arcs of lead characters: he really might be more incidental than tertiary.)
The show has bumped him up to a secondary character, which means that his personality becomes more relevant. For example, the fact that Loras is gay and that he was in love with Renley is now important, whereas it is just trivia in the books. But, again: the book said pastry, the show provided blueberry tart; the claims of cherry pie are unfounded.
The fact that he hasn’r mentioned Victarion or Euron Greyjoy, combined with the casting call rumors, gives me hope that one or more of them might be in the shown next season.
1 – 2. griff & young griff
3 – 4. manderly at least 1 fat boy
5. darkstar
No particular order, except #1 and 2
1. Victarion
2. Late aDwD POV Barristan (I’m trying not to cry)
3. Manderly
4. Moqorro
5. Skahaz mo Kandaq, the Shavepate
oh shit…top five isn’t enough
6. Marwyn the Mage
7. Strong Belwas
8. Arianne
9. Darkstar
10. Jon Connington
11. Lady Stoneheart
12. Qaithe
13. Donal Noye
14. Tom o’ Sevens
15. Aeron Damphair
Donal Noye and Tatters (Since i think he is very interesting).
I dont think we can entirely rule out Lady Stoneheart yet. Seems to me that D&D had a plan A and plan B. Plan A was 7 seasons, where most parts of the riverlands were cut.
Now that HBO has confirmed 8 seasons, I think they are running plan B, pushing some of the Riverlands storyline into S6.
What this means for stuff like, LS, Nymeria (Aryas warging), Brotherhood, Blackfish etc… remains to be seen.
– Wyman Manderly and his wonderful pie
– Jon Connington
– Skahaz mo Kandaq, the Shavepate
– Darkstar
And the whole second siege of Mereen
Well for instanse, onetime B&W said that money was the issue and time was limted due to the amout of the material Martin has wrote and Hbo gave them! Ok, but why they constantly put scenes in that show(that aren’t in thee books), or had nothing to with storylines! Like Tyrion and Jaime in cell, where they discussed that cousin! So, that means bs to B&W, cause i timed the scene, and you ask how long was the scene? Let me tell you, it was 5 min and 15 sek long!!! Consider how much time they had to tell the story way the books go or what happes to other charachters, say like LadyStoneHeart? Now most viewers don’t understand the laws of hospitality and revenge! The bond between brothers had been made clear earlier! Same goes with that stupid fight with Brienne and Hound, i mean timewise and the fact that they never met. As you might have noticed, i’m book purist! Just exemple, when i was exited Jaime’s storyline and how he had changed, made me want to strangle B&W, not true i was pissed! I’m jumping here, bare with me ;), but why put Bran tell story about Ratcook, was it? And how Sam and Gilly, survaived the journey to the Wall? And without Coldhands help to fight, those Others, and Bran and them managed to found their goal? And Tyrions travel to Yunkai with Jorah, and Jorah getting that stone what ever thing(i read finnish so don’t know all the words). There are lots of things and charachters to be missed. Arya’s part to free Harrenhall, was it weaselsoup? Arienne, Strong Belwas, Wyman Manderly, Donal Noye, Qaithe(more of her), ghost of high heart, Barbrey Dustin(what is she looking from Winterfell), Jeyne Poole(cause Sansas story has been so boring they had to add her in the mix), and of course Barristan Selmy……And as a book reader, comes SPOILER!!!!!!! Read at your own will!! Why kill Barristan? Everyone knows that he’s live and well! And he leads Danys absence…. And i was wondering why Barbrey Dustin was so interested Winterfells catacombs!! I think that story her being bitter to Ned Stark, afterall they where his bannermen11 And when Lord of Winterfells calls to arms, you obey! No, she was looking something, getting familiar to the place. I believe that Winterfell holds huge secret, that has something to do with White Walkers…In books others and if i recall White Walkers moved “slowly”. But when Bran and his companions finally found what they’ve been looking for, yet again like every other show, those stupid skeletons from Pirates of the caribbean appeard,and they came fast. These things just eats me up! Same thing happened in Hardhome, which was The Most stupid episode ever in GoT’s history, followed by Mother’s mercy! Ok, i yield in something, but that was also known, Valyrian Steel cuts those Walkers to chards of ice! The strike was cool! And Dragon glass also! Well that was my rant, i wish that we could sit down in some nice bar and argue things about The Song of Fire and Ice! 😉 But i live here in the “True North”, Finnland. And if you are scepticul, check the map, and take a ruler and put it level of New York and you see what i mean, Helsinki is my home town, so Artic circle is more north, but level of Helsinki gives the pesrpect how north we live, and i dont’n mean to offend you guys and girls out there! Never the less, i hope you comment, but be civil, i have no tolerace for rudeness! And who haven’t read the books, please buy those, or lend a friend or just go to library,cause that gives deeper perspective on what’s going on in Westeros and in Essos! I wish you all the best in life! Respect one and Others! By the way i’m male, but Arya is my hero! 😉
Next to LSH I reaölly miss Arianne Martell. She’s such a strong woman and I hate that they made Trystane the oldest, because so the fact that woman could be the Prince/ss of Dorne gets lost.
Arya,
Jesus fucking Christ what a retard,also did you just wrote a whole essay of bullcrap ?
Coldhands
Barbrey Dustin
Arianne Martell
Jon Connington
Jeyne Pool
Jeyne Westerling
Asha Greyjoy
Arya,
Right on! Well done. Everything you said made total sense, which the TV show does not, based on the changes that B&W have made. And why indeed insert their own storylines and characters when a limited amount of time was an issue!
But yes, all the characters I wanted to see in the show were because of the mysteries they hinted at uncovering. For me that would make things a LOT more interesting although I do understand that certain cuts had to be made, certain choices also, for the sake of “good TV” although “good TV” would seem to mean different things to different people.
Tyrion the Myrion,
No, it made some really good and valid points.
Jeor Mormont’s raven