In a recent interview at The Chicago Way w/John Kass, A Song of Ice and Fire author George R.R. Martin didn’t just discuss Jane Goldman’s prequel pilot, which has just finished filming, and how The Winds of Winter is coming along, but also provided a fascinating insight into his writing process. As any writer knows, much of the writing process doesn’t involve ‘writing’ at all, and it turns out that’s true for Martin as well.
“If my writing is going well, and I’m really ‘in Westeros,’ it does haunt me day and night, and one of the times when it’s most common is when I go to bed at night. I’m laying there in bed; waiting to go to sleep; the lights are out; and the scenes that I’m gonna write tomorrow are in my head. Or maybe the scenes I’m gonna write next week, or maybe the scenes from a different chapter. I don’t know–I can’t control it, but something starts filling my head and the characters start coming alive, and I start hearing snatches of dialogue, and I drift to sleep with Westeros and Ice and Fire in my head, haunting me.”
“When I was still living in Chicago,” Martin continues, “I’d take the L [Chicago’s elevated train system] every day to work. It’s not the most exciting ride in the world, so I’d sit there, staring at the window, and stories would fill my head. Not necessarily [because of] the things that I was seeing on the rooftops of Chicago–but other planets, imaginary realms, and all of that. So it’s almost a case where you’re zoning out; you’re riding on the L and it’s boring or you’re drifting to sleep and you’re not quite asleep yet, but you’re not awake [anymore] either, and then the stuff comes to you.”
As many suspected and the author has intimated before, this crucial ritual of reflection is not exclusively reserved for the world of Westeros and The Winds of Winter -his sixth book in the series- anymore, as other projects have come to divide his attention:
“Of course, what’s happened in my life recently is that there’s so much else now,” Martin admits. “The success of the show and other things has injected a lot of other aspects into my life. So sometimes I lay in bed at night and I’m not thinking about Westeros, even thought I may want to–I’m thinking about some other problem I’m having; one of the other shows I’m involved with; or a deadline on an anthology I’m editing; or something that’s happening with the non-profit organization that I started. All of these other things are filling my head and that is one of the thing’s that’s delayed me. I really have to get Winds done; I’ve really have to put myself on a state where I’m not being distracted by other stuff, and that period at night is filled with the voices of Tyrion Lannister and Arya Stark and the other fictional characters who live inside of me.”
The show coming to an end has freed his mind a fair bit, but as we know new projects have sprung up to take its place: “There was a period where the show caught and past me, and I hadn’t anticipated that happening, so there was a tremendous amount of stress on me a few years ago when that was about to happen but hadn’t happened yet, and I was desperately trying to finish Winds and stay ahead. And it didn’t work. The amount of stress that was on me at the time slowed me down rather than speeding me up. Now that the show’s over, any stress in that regard is done, but of course, we have five successor shows in various stages of development–and one of them’s just finished shooting the pilot episode in Northern Ireland; another one’s very close to getting a pilot order. I’m involved with those as well. Game of Thrones, that particular story, may be over on TV, but it’s not over for me–I still have these two more books to write. And there’s other stories in the world of Westeros, which is an entire world, and I’m still deeply involved with those. So there’s still plenty to keep me busy.”
At Vogue, on a fashion-centered piece, Maisie Williams discusses how playing Arya, a tomboy had to often pass for a boy, affected her self-image, and how she got past it:
“A couple of seasons in the middle, maybe around season two or three, my body started to mature, and I started to become a woman. But Arya was still very much trying to be disguised as a boy, and I had really short hair, and they constantly covered me in dirt and shade my nose so as it looked really broad and I look really manly. And they’d also put this strap across my chest to flatten any ‘growth’ that had started”.
“I don’t know–that just felt horrible,” Maisie admits. “And I felt kind of ashamed for a while. So we’ve got this new phase of my style. It’s nice to look more feminine, and have a real waistline, and embrace the body that I have.”
The Many-Faced Goddess!
šøš»
For those waiting for your books, I hope you get them. I’ll always be grateful to George for creating this world, but Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss took control and gave me the rest of the story. The ending is out there and it was a marvelous and magnificent ride. I’ll never know how they did it, but they did the near impossible and wrapped up this behemoth. What an amazing feat.
Jack Bauer 24,
D&D’s burner account confirmed!
I can’t imagine how hard it was for Maisie to grow up in front of the whole world.
I think it was easier in a way for Sophie because her character was written as atractive. But they did their job to make Arya unattractive, especially in S2-4. And for a young girl or boy to be intentionally made unattractive in front of millions of people was frustrating for sure. No matter the amount of money she earned.
In other words, as long as there is any interest at all in Game of Thrones prequels, sequels or side books or any other franchises of GRRM’s, he’s not going to finish this book series.
And as that’s not going to happen for at least 10 years in the current climate of safe choices and remakes and sequels/prequels, and as there are at least 2 books to go, this basically confirms that he is never going to finish the books, ever.
I’ve know this, deep down, for a while now, but it’s still painful to be reminded.
dee,
At least now that the show is over that popular conspiracy theory that HBO is forcing him not to finish his books can finally die.
No more excuses, no more blame games.
Many Faced Goddess indeed, Ten Bears!
mau,
I completely agree with you. Much was made of Sansa looks and desirability in a marriage contract while Arya was overlooked and then forced to travel as a boy for safety.
Iāve read that both girls suffered from negative comments which were quite painful as young teens. Iām glad they had each other to lean on and have come out on the other side with professional help. Both young women deserve accolades for continuing to bring us their characters.
George may never finish the books but we know, basically, how this epic story ends. Then there is always fanfic or our own personal versions. It is what it is.
As a writer, I get it. Every distraction can throw you off for a long time. And he has nothing but distractions.
Sigh…looks that way, Dee.
And Kass is my new hero.
dee,
Looks like youāre right…
According to GRRM: Of course, whatās happened in my life recently is that thereās so much else now,ā Martin admits. āThe success of the show and other things has injected a lot of other aspects into my life. So sometimes I lay in bed at night and Iām not thinking about Westeros, even thought I may want toāIām thinking about some other problem Iām having; one of the other shows Iām involved with; or a deadline on an anthology Iām editing; or something thatās happening with the non-profit organization that I started. All of these other things are filling my head and that is one of the thingās thatās delayed me. I really have to get Winds done; Iāve really have to put myself on a state where Iām not being distracted by other stuff, and that period at night is filled with the voices of Tyrion Lannister and Arya Stark and the other fictional characters who live inside of me.ā
Translation: āIām preoccupied with other things. Iām not writing TWOW.ā
[GRRM interior monologue: āIām cranky. Jets are 0-4. Got blown out yesterday by the Eagles, 31-6. Now go away and leave me alone.ā]
And yet, by S7…
āI canāt believe I thought you were a boy. Youāre pretty!ā
– Hot Pie
mau,
(cont. from 11:30 am)
Season 2 pre-teen Arya scoping out barechested Gendry…
https://i.giphy.com/media/zw4odKaaLCffy/source.gif
(also at 0:05 of this S2e5 scene)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AfjfPkwBYA
and by Season 8…
āAll I know is that you’re beautiful, and I love you, and none of it will be worth anything if you’re not with me.ā
– Gendry Baratheon, Lord of Stormās End (S8e4)
Ten Bears,
Yeah. But by the time she did S7 she was older and had more confidence. I think it would have been easier for Maisie if she was pretty in the first half of the show. In the second half I think she would have handled it much better.
You’d think that Jets fans would be used to this by now.
Ten Bears,
Oh, and although it was all too brief*, I thought Arya/Maisie looked especially beautiful in this S8e4 scene (riding away from WF; at 0:15 – 0:19 + 1:12 – 1:19 [end]).
* This scene of Arya riding off with Sandor was barely a minute and twenty seconds long. They shouldāve extended it to a full one-hour episode. Or an entire season. Or a spin-off show.
Ten Bears,
Right!? I mean, one of Westeros’ most eligible bachelors was completely smitten by her!
#WoW2020
First half of 2020 even…
Iul,
Points deducted for use of the hashtag symbol when we’re not on twitter.
-Stannis Baratheon, grammar enthusiast.
Ha ha! š¤£
You know, Iāve been a steadfast defender of JB when some folks get on his case. Still, I can understand how repetitive comments fawning over D&D shoehorned into comments sections can raise hackles after a while.
It does seem like the effusive praise could be coming from a āD&D burner account.ā Or maybe the work of a bot army in a Russian troll farm.
At the same time, Iām the last one to complain about injecting off-topic commentary: Iāve been guilty of more than my fair share of Arya Thread Derailments. ā ļøššøš»š”
#ASNAWP
A Girl has many gifts.
I think someone needs to plant some hidden voice boxes in GRRM’s bedroom..whispering….Ghost says, “Jon….wooof wooof….wake up Jon….wooof…ayooooooo…You’re not dead….get up I need to go out…” Arya says, “Help, get me out of Bravos I want to go home already…it’s been 8 fn years…….” Other words of encouragement to get those voices back in his head…
š Yea, I’m just poking fun at it at this point. There’s only so much unnecessary ass-kissing I can handle before I need to make light of it. I’ve reached the saturation point.
Mr Derp,
JB was always the best at being the first with awesome news links before anyone else. I remember many times he had a great link to an interview or something else before anyone else saw it.. He also was right on about certain predictions, such as when a trailer might be dropped…I hope he finds some pre-quel news for us too.
Tron79,
Yes, JB has been prescient, and first to report breaking news. (Iāve even asked him if he knew where I put my cars keys.)
Tron79,
Eh, stalking people’s twitter accounts all day can definitely provide a lot of information, but I don’t know how much credit is deserved. Anyone can do that. I’m sure others were thankful though. I have nothing personal against Jack. He’s generally a nice guy. The repetitive statement in every thread is starting to get obnoxious though and feels a bit like trolling, so I’m just poking fun of it at this point in as lighthearted a way as possible.
Were you around WOTW a year or two ago though? Dude was driving everyone crazy around here for months. He was obsessed with telling everyone that the latest season (season 6 I think?) was going to be cancelled simply because there was no official announcement of a red carpet premiere date. It was brutal. Just giving him a dose of his own medicine š
I can understand the reasons behind the delays. And I will wait patiently until the next book comes out. And I’m still hopeful winds will be on the shelve next year, and I’m probably be made fun of for even thinking it. But if it’s later then its later.
But I can’t understand if he knows what keeps him from writing his main story, his main project. He keeps on adding multiple projects to the list. I can understand that HBO doesn’t want to wait, but then let them just work on it on themselves.
And I’m happy Maissie has found the confidence she deserves, she is by far ugly, and she shouldn’t think that about herself. Just be yourself, she seems sweet and fun girl to be with.
Ten Bears,
I always love your videos.
Personally I still hope winds will be out before July 2020. Not only for reading the books, but more to show the ones constantly pulling GRRM down for his delays. It starts to get annoying when people are always negative about things. At least the people who suspects winds to be out before July 2020 are having a positive look at it. And it’s not even realistic when stating he won’t finish his books before that time. Because nobody knows how far he is with winds. He states in this interview why he is delayed. Not how far he is with winds.
hahahahaha, or let the captain of the jets make a helping tape that he can play. “George the faith of the jets is in your hands. We can’t win any matched until you have finish Winds of winter and Dream of springs. You are our only hope.”
Winds of winter released on November 1st 2019. Dream of springs announced to be released on Christmas in 2020.
Still I’m 100% behind the big Kahoona (write it that way Ten bears?).
Maisie always looked cute to me, muddy make-up and matted, short hair notwithstanding. It was those beautiful eyes, and the prodigious cheeks – you could see she would mature into a pretty woman. She’ll probably age better than any of the other women in the cast, except, perhaps, for Nathalie Emmanuel and Lena Heady.
Such success early in life is a two-edged sword, and hopefully she will not only survive it, but also continue to build on it.
And, did he knew where they were?
Mr Derp,
I don’t remember that, but yes I’ve been around since many blood moons ago…
I remember that year there were awesome shots of Maisie filming in the water (when later on we found out that’s when the waif stabbed her and Maisie jumped into the water). WOTW definitely kept me going that year with lots of great filming shots. It was harder for me when they got better with their security. I didn’t think seeing those filming shots were huge spoilers. I still didn’t know what was going to happen, but I loved seeing them.
Here’s one of the articles I remembered…
https://watchersonthewall.com/new-photos-of-maisie-williams-filming-today-in-northern-ireland/
Tron79,
The problem is, even with hidden voice boxes whispering pleas from Ghost, Arya and Jon, theyāll be drowned out by all the other sounds and images swimming in Gās head.
From his own description of his creative process [excerpted below], I donāt see how he can hope to have the ASOIAF characters ācome aliveā again so long as his attention is diverted by other shows, anthologies, his non-profit organization, and other projects that seem to excite him more.
It doesnāt sound like he can āforceā himself to finish TWOW, and his muse wonāt return unless he jettisons all of these other projects that compete for space in his head.
Maybe he ought to shelve all of those other projects, and eliminate distractions. (Arenāt there medications to treat attention deficit disorders that would help him focus?)
So long as there are other āshiny objectsā that command his attention, itāll be too easy to keep putting off work on the books.
I still say he should just throw in the towel and announce to the world that heās not finishing the books. Then, if somehow the inspiration returns and he finishes writing them in a few weeks in a frenzy of creativity, it will be an unexpected surprise.
_______
GRRM:
āIf my writing is going well, and Iām really āin Westeros,ā it does haunt me day and night, and one of the times when itās most common is when I go to bed at night. Iām laying there in bed; waiting to go to sleep; the lights are out; and the scenes that Iām gonna write tomorrow are in my head. Or maybe the scenes Iām gonna write next week, or maybe the scenes from a different chapter. I donāt knowāI canāt control it, but something starts filling my head and the characters start coming alive, and I start hearing snatches of dialogue, and I drift to sleep with Westeros and Ice and Fire in my head, haunting me.ā
****
Of course, whatās happened in my life recently is that thereās so much else now,ā Martin admits. āThe success of the show and other things has injected a lot of other aspects into my life. So sometimes I lay in bed at night and Iām not thinking about Westeros, even thought I may want toāIām thinking about some other problem Iām having; one of the other shows Iām involved with; or a deadline on an anthology Iām editing; or something thatās happening with the non-profit organization that I started. All of these other things are filling my head and that is one of the thingās thatās delayed me. I really have to get Winds done; Iāve really have to put myself on a state where Iām not being distracted by other stuff, and that period at night is filled with the voices of Tyrion Lannister and Arya Stark and the other fictional characters who live inside of me.ā
Yes. Those beautiful eyes…
āYou have very expressive eyes, Mercy. Wonderful eyebrows.ā
– Lady Crane S6e6:
kevin1989,
Sadly, no, JB couldnāt help me find my keys. But he did nail the trailer release date, and the S8 premier date as well, I think.
He also frequently was the first to find new cast interviews, articles and other show updates.
I would get so excited upon seeing JB’s comments, because they so often included something new about Season 8… oh, January to March… that was a sweet, sweet time of hype… so thank you for that, Jack Bauer 24! š
Yet now, it almost seems (a word that rhymes with litterwheat).
I feel for Maisie.
Even now, at age 22, and even after her partially nude scene in the last season, the internet is rife with people who say she still looks 12 to them.
Some people are just incapable of seeing her as anything other than a child. And god forbid someone dare to say they find her attractive, lest they be branded “pedophiles” by mobs of angry internet “villagers”.
Must feel very toxic and embarrassing for her.
I agree with every word you wrote. š
3eyes,
I thought she did too; a little rough between the edges but it was a disguise to make sure no one knew who she was (so in a sense, she was always No One!) but she always looked good. I can imagine her having trouble with body image; it looks like shes confident now, and she should be (and can we please have a law telling all child actors to stay off social media!!!! There are so many damn trolls and horrible people that just want to through filth around matter how much it might hurt another.
I suspect she is not the only child actor who has to be wrapped – usually its to keep them from looking older. I do wonder how if there was another way to approach this (thinking of how I was growing at that age, the very thought of it makes me hurt!)
Oh, and at this point, I care not a bit about GRRMs trouble with his writing. Im grateful for what he created, but he didn’t finishe the job and keeps talking about it – just don’t want to hear about it anymore
Same!
Nick20,
Yeah, I just.. don’t know what’s wrong with some people. She’s a beautiful, smart, courageous, immensely talented, and inspiring young woman!
#Maisie
#ASNAWP
ash,
āOh, and at this point, I care not a bit about GRRMās trouble with his writing. Iām grateful for what he created, but he didnāt finish the job and keeps talking about it ā just donāt want to hear about it anymore.ā
______
Yeah. He really ought to consider refraining from explanations and excuses. Iām a āpre-booksā fan, and I canāt imagine how frustrated book readers must be after… how many years has it been? (Didnāt the most recent book – the fifth book – come out in 2011 or 2012? If so, thatād be a 7 or 8 years and counting as of 2019.)
Thatās why I say he should throw in the towel and just tell everyone, including himself, that heās given up. Why beat himself up or endure further haranguing from disappointed fans?
Forgive the sports metaphor: A little over a month ago, the Indianapolis Coltsā star quarterback Andrew Luck shocked Colts fans by announcing his retirement at age 29, citing a recurring cycle of injuries and rehabbing from injuries.
Hereās how Andrew Luck explained his decision to walk away in his prime:
āIāve been stuck in this process. I haven’t been able to live the life I want to live. It’s taken the joy out of this game. The only way forward for me is to remove myself from football. This is not an easy decision. It’s the hardest decision of my life. But it is the right decision for me.ā
Substitute a few words and George could borrow that speech.
It was so satisfying to hear Lady Crane say it! I maintain that Arya should have her own Anime series. So sayeth 3eyes.
Yes! I feel that way about non-Daenerys Emilia Clarke too! They both should have their own anime series, they are both so naturally expressive!
Ser Creighton Longbough,
How kind, Ser
Truly, she had to become No-One as soon as she left Syrio’s protection.
I’m reminded of what Judy Garland had to go through to look young enough to play Dorothy.
Agreed – Emilia’s interviews are fun to watch because of this.
Adrianacandle,
So many in the cast were great at acting with facial expression and body language. We’ve been spoilt, haven’t we?
I honestly think he should just give up, admit he can’t finish it the way he wanted and have a full Q&A describing what his plans were.
Absolutely! I think we got very lucky with this cast! š š š
Mr Derp,
Yep, during S7 JB was a pain in the ass! So many questions and complaints regarding episodes and scenes that he wasn’t happy with. I didn’t give a second thought as to where the WW’s got chains from to pull Viserion out of the frozen lake or how did Jaime and Bronn manage to escape wearing armour from the river. I had a go at him several times as did other posters in the group š
However, JB was very complimentary about (and during) S8 and I never saw any posts asking silly questions. I’ll give him credit though regarding his predications regarding trailer release dates, etc leading up to S8. He was pretty much spot on.
3eyes,
I was thinking of her as well. What they did to her during that production was criminal, much of it lead to her death at a very young age.
Good interviews. My patience with GRRM is at its lowest ebb. He said some months ago he would lock himself in an isolated cabin to finish WoW. But he’s still haring about, from signing up for new projects, to discussing more prequels to attending cons, to considering Fire and Blood Part deux. I hold a D Phil in Creative Procrastination, but our George is the God of Procrastination. Get on with it, man!
Ten Bears,
“This scene of Arya riding off with Sandor was barely a minute and twenty seconds long. They shouldāve extended it to a full one-hour episode. Or an entire season. Or a spin-off show.”
Cheers, that’s the spirit. That scene is a joy–those two are like an old married couple. They know each other’s mind and finish each other’s sentences. As Sandor pointed out in Series 8 Episode 2, Arya doesn’t talk much now. But she always sings her terse duet with HIM.
Maisie has previously mentioned the wrapping and her adolescent reaction to it. Does anyone have an easy time with puberty? For her to be busting out and having to hide it must have been hard. And she was in the international spotlight to boot. She’s over it now, and rather a fashion icon. What she needed then was a real-life Sandor:
So it hurts? And so you can’t look pretty? F**k pretty. Lots of c**ts look pretty. Only you can be Arya Stark of Winterfell. You’re alive, aren’t you? Your father’s dead, your mum is dead, your auntie in the Eyrie is dead. Be a cold little bitch and you won’t join them! And FFS, stop whingeing.
Nick20,
That’s because she’s small and has a young face. I have that same problem. When I was 20, I looked 12. Now I am 39, I look 20. People always say it’s a compliment, but the problem is noone takes you serious.
Non-Cersei Lena Headey is also a joy to watch in interviews.
And sheās also the best narrator in the Episode Commentaries. (I love how she fangirls over Maisie Williams, e.g., the S4e10 Episode Commentary: āBrillianr. Sheās just brilliant.ā)
Stark Raven’ Rad,
ā… I hold a D Phil in Creative Procrastination, but our George is the God of Procrastination.ā
What do we say to the God of Procrastination?
More like “What does the God of Procrastination say?” ;p
XD I’m laughing at a lot of those comments. No idea whether this’ll go through, though, since my “Best Quote” choices absolutely refused to on all platforms. A few others wouldn’t either.
It just stinks because not only doesn’t George seem to truly prioritize ASoIaF over all the prequels and side stories and all this other stuff he’s always doing, but he’s apparently unable to even give a WoW “progress report” or approximate percentage of where he’s at. That’d be cool. Better than just another of these “nothing to report”-type interviews. Worst-case scenario, I guess, is he eventually realizes he’s got to state that the books aren’t getting finished, and just release an outline/synopsis of what was going to happen next. (So much for the “lock me in an isolated cabin” thing?)
Of course I’m suitably super-grateful to him and to everybody without whom we wouldn’t have Westeros/GoT (or we’d have a lesser one.) I’m particularly thankful to have been introduced to the cast. So easy to find your new favorite among those ranks. Mine is Carice, the biggest little bundle of beautiful talent I’ve ever seen and the cutest sweetie I’ve ever “awwww”‘d at. She also looked like a baby-faced teen in her 20s and has continued to look way younger than her age.
shelle,
āMore like āWhat does the God of Procrastination say?ā ;pā
_____
I know! That was my first thought, and I was going to edit my Comment…but didnāt want to complicate the play on the Syrio/Arya Q & A.
āWhat does the God of Procrastination say?ā
āNot today.ā
… doesnāt have quite the same ring to it, though it would be more a more accurate rhetorical Q & A for the Big Kahuna, i.e., putting off ātil tomorrow what he should do today, every day for 2,000+ days.
(And now back to Arya/MaisieTalk. šøš»š”)
shelle,
ā… Of course Iām suitably super-grateful to him and to everybody without whom we wouldnāt have Westeros/GoT (or weād have a lesser one.) Iām particularly thankful to have been introduced to the cast. So easy to find your new favorite among those ranks…ā
_____
So true!
ā¢ There were so many accomplished, brilliant Irish and British actors I never would have seen (Iām in the U.S.) were it not for GoT.
ā¢ For me, itās no secret that Rory McCann and Maisie Williams were my co-favorites āamong those ranks.ā
ā¢ I was also impressed how the show was able to cast big name actresses and actors in brief, supporting roles or one-off cameos, e.g.:
Essie Davis as Lady Crane
Richard E. Grant as Izemborro (sp?)
Birgitte Hort-Sorensen as Karsi
Max von Sydow as 3ER
Ian McShane as Brother Ray
Iām sure Iām forgetting many more.
ā¢ Reading that youāre āparticularly thankful to have been introduced to the castā made me think wistfully about Georgeās palpable excitement back in 2010 or 2011 during the process of casting actors to play his characters on the show. Iāve read some of his old blog and āLiveJournalā posts. He would pose clever riddles for his readers about the identity of actors whoād been cast. He was intimately involved in the production. He was super-psyched about his books coming to life on the screen.
Itās kind of sad that heās ālost that lovinā feeling.ā
ā¢ P.S. Itās particularly entertaining to revisit Gās old blog posts that introduce the unknown child actors chosen to play Bran, Sansa and Arya. The passage of time has confirmed that Gās predictions about MW, IHW and ST were right on the money.
Itās particularly interesting to read his book reader fansā comments about the casting of the then-unknown child actors (e.g., how they looked just like the readers imagined based only on tiny head shot photos).
Stark Raven’ Rad,
God, Iāll miss the Sandor-Arya Snarkathons.
Even in that brief S8e4 segment (Sandor leaving WF headed to KL, joined by Arya), these two snippets make me smile every time:
ā¢ At 0:10 – 0:15 (Sandor notices Arya coming up behind him, throws down his beef jerky, and exclaims…)
Sandor: āFor f*ckās sake!ā
ā¢ At 1:08 – 1:18 (After both talk about going to KL for āunfinished businessā)
Sandor: āYou going to leave me to die again if I get hurt?
(Pause…)
Arya: āProbably.ā
(They both chuckle)
[*TB chuckles*]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wb6w177bGk
Misc. thought… I sometimes wonder if the showrunners skimped on the Arya + Jon relationship after they realized how theyād struck gold with Sandor/Rory + Arya/Maisie.
So for those following my book journey, I made it to Arya II today.
And it was worth it. What was my true reaction. I litterally was in tears. I can’t remember that happening when reading before. It’s not really a spoiler since similar things happen in the show, but the way GRRM takes you through Arya having to give up her possessions is making me tear up now while writing this. So for Arya fans, it’s definitely worth it. There were also several other things I won’t go in to that could have been done in the show… In the show she was mainly sweeping, and she was doing a few other things as well in the book. I don’t consider this a major spoiler, so I’ll mention it that in the book the Jaqen character from the show (kindly man in the book) has her practice making faces (like moving her eyebrows, sticking out her tongue..just getting used to how her face works in the mirror). Can you imagine letting Maisie do this? She’s so expressive with her eyes and face, this would have been amazing to watch.
Maybe it’s because I’m doing the boiled leather experience, but I’m loving these books so far. They don’t seem bogged down at all. I’m getting some great twists and surprises. Coming from someone who knows the show really well, I am constantly getting surprised by story twists and strategies that weren’t in the show…
I also thought about Cersei’s show line to Joffrey about the truth being whatever you say it is. There were scenes where people actually spun the red wedding to blame Robb for killing their bannersman after he turned into a wolf and attacked them! The legend went on that if the wolf bit them they might turn into a wolf (like a werewolf legend).
(also the many faced god explanation makes alot more sense in the books too with explaining how all that came to be…)
There’s a ton happening that’s not in the show, and I’m really enjoying it. It’s like a new world I’m discovering. I’m trying to take notes in my phone notes app to remember all the differences and my reactions at the time. In the books, there is a similar scene with the Iron Born on the campaign stump campaigning for the Salt throne (Seastone chair in books). It’s much much better in the books. The show abbreviates the scene. In the books, there are more funny characters with their followers who try to convince everyone that they are worthy of the throne. It reminded me a little of the Edmure scene in the show finally when he said he was experienced in “State craft”… Just so many great Iron Born character names that I can’t remember now without going back to the text. Loved it!! Yara is Asha in the books…
So, I have plenty more to talk about, but I have to get ready for our choir with another Jewish holiday with Yom Kippur starting tonight and going all day tomorrow… Once that’s over I will be back to my journey…. Only 28 chapters to the next Ayra chapter though…but I can make it… This Arya II chapter will stay with me for a very long time…OMG I’m starting to tear up again..I’m not kidding… So great…
Ten Bears,
“What do we say to the God of Procrastination?”
Not today!
Or tomorrow.
Or 8 years from now. š
Tron79,
āSo for those following my book journey, I made it to Arya II today. And it was worth it. What was my true reaction. I literally was in tears. I canāt remember that happening when reading before. Itās not really a spoiler since similar things happen in the show, but the way GRRM takes you through Arya having to give up her possessions is making me tear up now while writing this. So for Arya fans, itās definitely worth it.ā
_____
ā¢ Yes! I am following your book journey.
ā¢ Life Goals: āMaking it to the next Arya chapter.ā
ā¢ From your description of the passage that brought you to tears (āArya having to give up her possessionsā), it sounds like youāre referring to the famous āNeedle was Jon Snowās smileā internal monologue. That is one of the handful of book passages Iāve read, and as Iāve said before, I thought Maisie Williams brilliantly captured the emotions of that passage with facial expressions alone.
Sorry for my use of āliterallyā in my post btw. I was emotional at the time and didnāt catch myself.
Yes you are correct. My life goal is to make it to the next Arya chapter!
Stark Raven’ Rad,
So it hurts? And so you canāt look pretty? F**k pretty. Lots of c**ts look pretty. Only you can be Arya Stark of Winterfell. Youāre alive, arenāt you? Your fatherās dead, your mum is dead, your auntie in the Eyrie is dead. Be a cold little bitch and you wonāt join them! And FFS, stop whingeing.
Hell yeah!!! Hee, wonder if Rory actually said that to her; woulda made her laugh if nothing else
Tron79,
Lshanah Tovah!
Ten Bears,
You two made me tear up but in a good way.
This scene is so moving because of Maisieās wonderful face. Her eyes have always drawn me to Aryaās scenes.
We truly were lucky to have such a talented cast who were capable of relaying so much emotion with a lip twitch, a raise of an eyebrow or the merest hint of a smile.
ash,
Thanks.
Tron79,
I agree that chapter was just great. Beautiful how she puts it there. And in the books the waif is much nicer, so I wonder which path Arya will take to get home.
And agree the books are not bogged down, there’s a lot happening in the books, and what I love is the mystery in those books and that plans are revealed, but only a little. Cersei’s plan is amazing. Then we have Tyrion who is having a plan but somehow the chapters cut before he things off it. And of course LF plan. And the seastone chair. What’s your opinion about that, should the plot to the kingsmoot only have been through Asha’s view or how GRRM did was better with Damphair and victorion (if I’m not mistaken) also having a chapter? And what do you think of book version of Euron. That guy scare me more than Ramsay or Joffrey.
I would also suggest too read the released chapters of winds, they are amazing, one had me shad tears of happiness. (not the Arya chapter another one).
Tron79,
For the Day of Atonement:
(S6e7 – Sandor & Brother Ray)
Sandor: āYou didn’t know me back in my time. You don’t know the things I’ve done.ā
Ray: āI’ve heard stories.ā
Sandor: āIf the gods are real why haven’t they punished me?ā
Ray: āThey have.ā
(S6e8 – Beric & Sandor)
Beric: āYou can still help a lot more than youāve harmed, Clegane. Itās not too late for you.ā
(S4e3 [Clip below*] – After Sandor assaults and robs Rabbit Stew Sallyās father)
***
Arya: āHe took us in! He fed us! And you–ā
Sandor: āAye, he took us in. He’s a good man and his daughter makes a nice stew. And they’ll both be dead come winter.ā
Arya: āYou don’t know that!ā
Sandor: āI do know it. He’s weak.
He can’t protect himself. They’ll both be dead come winter. Dead men don’t need silver.ā
Arya: āYou’re the worst sh*t in the Seven Kingdoms!ā
(S7e1 – Sandor, joined by Thoros, burying the bodies of Rabbit Stew Sally and her father)
Sandor: āWe ask the Father to judge us with mercy. We ask the Mother to… F*ck it, I don’t remember the rest. I’m sorry you’re dead. You deserved better. Both of you.ā
(S4e10 – Brienne vs. Sandor)
Sandor: ā…There is no safety, you dumb bitch. You donāt know that by now, youāre the wrong one to watch over her.ā
Brienne (sarcastically): āAnd thatās what youāre doing? Watching over her?ā
Sandor: āAye. Thatās what Iām doing.ā
(S8e2 – Sandor & Arya on WF battlements)
***
Arya: ā…No, I mean, what are you doing up here? You joined the Brotherhood. You went beyond the Wall with Jon. You’re here now. Why? When was the last time you fought for anyone but yourself?
Sandor: āI fought for you, didn’t I?ā
ā-
(S8e5 – Sandor convinces Arya to forego revenge)
***
Sandor: āYou think you wanted revenge a long time? I’ve been after it all my life. It’s all I care about. And look at me…
Look at me! āØ You want to be like me?āāØ(He gently cups his hand on the back of her head and looks in her eyes)āØ āYou come with me, you die here.āāØ(As he walks away, Arya calls after him)āØArya: āSandor! ….Thank you.ā
āāāā-
*(S4e3 – Arya & Sandor meet Rabbit Stew Sally & her father)
Tron79,
Oh no. I think you did properly use the word when you wrote āI was literally was in tearsā reading that Arya passage.
You would not be alone if you started tearing up simultaneously with Arya at the culmination of her internal monologue about what Needle represents to her and why she canāt bear to toss it in the water.
(This is probably not verbatim…)
***
ā… Needle was Jon Snowās smile. āHe used to muss my hair and call me little sisterā, she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.ā
That whole passage was powerful; almost poetic; and certainly, emotionally resonant.
kevin1989,
āI would also suggest too read the released chapters of winds, they are amazing, one had me shed tears of happiness. (not the Arya chapter another one).ā
______
Really? I shed tears of happiness reading the TWOW āMercyā sample chapter when
š
Ten Bears, great I used it right.
It would be awesome if our Rabbi gave a Sandor themed sermon!!
The scene teared me up partly because she has more personal items in the books than the show that sheās giving up and how much each one reminds her of her journey so far. (I was right there with her remembering each moment). Those were really hard to give up and then comes needle and itās just too much as she remembers Jon (and her stark family).
She tears up and i teared up with her.
Gotta go. Iāll respond back to everyone in a day or so. Have to turn off the electronics. I hope our rabbi is a wotw reader and talks about Sandor! I do know he is at least a little bit of GOT fan so you never know!
Tron79,
It was also because you can feel how alone Arya was feeling in the book. She quoted the lone wolf lines a couple of times and to her, her pack has mostly all died or abandoned her. When she also had to give up her identity you just canāt help feel for her.
MotherofWolves,
I was looking for GRRM blog entries from 2010 or 2011 about casting the roles of Sansa and Arya (referred to in the āP.S.ā at the end of my 11:25 am comment this morning), when I came upon this
May 20, 2019 online article in āDaily Actor.ā
Parts of it may be quoting from a Rolling Stone interview of GRRM. I do not recall reading it before.
Iāve reproduced the text of the linked article, below, for anyone whoās interested, because if you open the link to the article you may be assaulted by annoying pop-ups and ads that obscure your screen.
https://www.dailyactor.com/actors-on-acting/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-casting-arya-stark/
āGame of Thrones Creator George R.R. Martin on Why it Was So Hard to Cast Arya Starkā
May 20, 2019
by Chris McKittrick
āSheās saying the lines, sheās alive, sheās got Aryaās spirit, you know? It was incredible.ā ā George R. R. Martin on Watching Maisie Williams Audition Tape
If anyone knows the Game of Thrones characters, itās the creator of the series in which the books are based, George R. R. Martin. The A Song of Ice and Fire author recently did an interview with Rolling Stone regarding the final season of HBOās television adaptation of Game of Thrones.Ā At one point, Martin spoke specifically about the casting of Maisie Williams, who has played Arya Stark on the series since the first season.
Reflecting on the pitch-perfect casting, Martin credits casting director Nina Gold and show creators David Benioff and D. B. Weiss for succeeding at the challenging task of casting a young actress in the part:
āI have to give an immense amount of credit to our casting director, Nina Gold. The casting of Arya was particularly difficult, as I somewhat feared it would be; I think we looked at more potential Aryas than any other role in this show. I wasnāt physically present at the casting ā I was back here in New Mexico working on the next book ā but I was linked into it on the internet. So they would videotape these girls ā¦ I think we probably saw like a hundred girls. And at a certain point in the process I was really beginning to say, āThis is a disaster, we canāt find anyone here.ā These are not parts that require the girls to be cute, and deliver clever little one-liners to put down their idiot father, like you do in a sitcom. These are girls that are gonna go through really huge personal traumas. Theyāre gonna see death and war. Theyāre gonna see people close to them beheaded.
So after looking at all these tapes, particularly for Arya, I was saying, āWe are so screwed.ā Then I saw Maisieās tape, and it was like, āThere she is. There she is. Arya.ā Sheās saying the lines, sheās alive, sheās got Aryaās spirit, you know? It was incredible. David [Benioff] and Dan [Weiss] and I said, āYeah, we found her, hooray. Send up the skyrockets.’ā
8:13 PM
Since this is a Comment Section under an Arya/Maisie Williams + GRRM post, I suppose I shouldnāt have to provide an Arya Thread Derailment Warning (ā ļøššøš»š”).
Iām doing so anyway, just to give you all a headās up that Iām going to try to post some entries from back in 2010 on grrm.livejournal introducing the unknown child actresses whoād been cast as Arya and Sansa.
Even if youāve seen these before, reading them again is like a trip down Memory Lane.
#ASNAWP
#QitN
I would like to know why we haven’t heard anything from HBO about the prequal, Blood Moon??? Are we ever going to get to view the pilot? Are they going to order a full season, they have had plenty of time to know if the are going to or not. They should let us fans know something !!!! Has anyone on this site heard or know anything ?
Ten Bears,
Most excellent sermon for the day, thank you
and looking forward to those entrees (Is it possible to pull up some of the posts that were running on the old site about this time? )
The writers should have Arya show up in the prequal, she could go through some sort of portal. She could meet Bran the Builder, those two hook up, she helps with the Long Night, tells all the stories of future events, this is where all the prophecies came from, the drawings in the books that Sam had at the Citadel. Her doing this would make sense and explain a lot of things. She could be the one who starts the Stark line, “There always has to be a Stark in Winterfell” think of all the possibilities of story lines they could work in with her. She could also be the one to go to Bravos and start the Faceless Men, wouldn’t that be awesome.
Jack Bauer 24 is your Answer Man. He sees all. Knows all. Sort of a 3ER 3.0.
(Hey Jack? Can you put on your weirwood goggles and help Gina?)
ash,
I have not tried to pull up posts on the old site (n/k/a PopUpsAreUs.net) from the early days of casting for the show.
However, I did retrieve three of the blog posts from grrm.livejournal that I was looking for. Theyāre from Aug 21, 2009, Aug. 24, 2009, and Apr. 11, 2010. There may be more. I may have to post the embedded photos separately.
I think the fan comment sections are still accessible. I got a kick out of book readers squeeing over the tiny head shots of little Sophie and little Maisie, e.g., āOMG! She looks exactly like how I pictured her!ā
#1 of 3
Hereās a grrm livejournal post from August 21, 2009. [Link followed by text.]
Hard to believe this was over ten years ago!
8/21/2009 grrm.livejournal
https://grrm.livejournal.com/102596.html
As Arya and Sansa Stark…
… we have Maisie Williams and Sophie Turner, respectively.
These were the toughest ones to find clues for, since neither one can be found on IMDB, YouTube, Google, or any of the other places I searched. When you google Maisie’s name, however, you get a bunch of hits for Maizie Williams, a singer for an old pop group called Boney M. But of course THAT Maizie Williams was not our Arya, hence the clue that one player was NOT a boney pop singer.
Here’s our Arya:
ļæ¼[embedded photo]
Sophie Turner was just as hard to find. No, she’s not the middle-aged actress who played in the DR. WHO episode. She’s not any of the other Sophie Turners that google will turn up, either. I thought about trying to cobble together some kind of “not Sophie Tucker” clue, but finally gave it up as a bad idea, and in the end I never did drop a hint for Sophie.
Here’s Sansa:
ļæ¼[embedded photo]
(That’s not the best picture, I know. Sorry, didn’t have a lot to choose from. I am sure better pictures of both Maisie and Sophie will be forthcoming).
You guys cannot possibly know how hard these roles were to cast. I’ve viewed dozens of readings for both girls. Sweet kids, some with great looks, all of them bright and eager and enthusiastic… but good child actors are rare. Maisie brought Arya alive in a way that none of the other kids could match, right from the first. Sophie read two scenes; the scene with Arya on the kingsroad, and a much later one when Joff is forcing her to look at the heads on the walls. Two very different sides of the character. She knocked ’em both out of the park.
I think you’re going to love these girls. I know I do.
#1 of 3 – embedded photos in 8/21/2009 grrm.livejournal.com post
āHereās our Aryaā
http://pics.livejournal.com/grrm/pic/0005zqkw/
āHereās Sansaā
http://pics.livejournal.com/grrm/pic/00060h4s/
#2 of 3
grrm livejournal post from August 24, 2009. [Link followed by text.]
grrm.livejournal.com
8/24/2009
https://grrm.livejournal.com/103855.html
George R.R. Martin (grrm) wrote,
2009-08-24 13:29:00
Arya and Sansa, Revisited
Here, as promised, are some larger pictures of Maisie Williams and Sophie Turner, who will be portraying Arya and Sansa Stark, respectively, in the HBO pilot.
MAISIE WILLIAMS
ļæ¼
[embedded photo]
Maisie, I am informed, has some previous acting credits. Stage work, I gather, nothing in television or film. Until now. Sorry, I have no further details.
SOPHIE TURNER
ļæ¼
[embedded photo]
Sophie is brand new, David and Dan tell me. Well, maybe some school plays. She read for us at her school. Don’t confuse her with the DR. WHO Sophie Turner, please, or any of the other Sophie Turners that Google will turn up. (She should probably tweak her name to make it more distinctive. Maybe Sophie R.R. Turner. Worked for me)
#2 of 3: Embedded photos in 8/24/09 grrm.livejournal post
Maisie Williams
http://pics.livejournal.com/grrm/pic/00067h4r/
Sophie Turner
http://pics.livejournal.com/grrm/pic/00068zys/
#3 of 3 April 11, 2010 post –
grrm.livejournal.com
https://grrm.livejournal.com/146489.html
Stick ‘Em With the Pointy End
Filming on HBO’s GAME OF THRONES series will be resuming in June, in Northern Ireland.
Maisie Williams, who will play Arya Stark, is preparing for her part by practicing her needlework. I though you might enjoy seeing these recent pictures of her that her mom was kind enough to send me.
ļæ¼[embedded photos]
Her sword, of course, is the full-scale replica of Needle produced by the good folks at Valyrian steel.
ļæ¼[embedded photos]
You can get a Needle for your very own Arya at http://www.valyriansteel.com/
#3 of 3
April 11, 2010 grrm.livejournal
embedded photos (of Maisie Williams)
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/grrm/7059164/68487/68487_900.jpg
āāāāā-
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/grrm/7059164/68683/68683_900.jpg
ash,
Obviously, clicking on the links to the three livejournal posts above (#1 – #3) is probably the easiest way to view the text and embedded photos, AND access the fan comments (which sometimes included replies from G himself).
(Correction – better image links?)
#1 of 3 – embedded photos in
Aug. 21, 2009 grrm.livejournal
āHereās our Aryaā
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/grrm/7059164/42211/42211_900.jpg
āHereās our Sansaā
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/grrm/7059164/42372/42372_900.jpg
Ten Bears,
#2 of 3
[Corrected; better image links?]
embedded photos in Aug. 24, 2009 grrm.livejournal
Maisie Williams
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/grrm/7059164/44261/44261_900.jpg
Sophie Turner
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/grrm/7059164/44523/44523_900.jpg
I love reading the books, the variety of characters and POVs are really the special hook for me… so many complex and interesting characters that are all being tested and being pulled in so many directions and they all feel alive, at least for me. I can really tell how much GRRM really understands and likes his characters, even when they are horrible or doing horrible things, you can still understand (maybe not agree) why/how they got there.
28 more chapters…lol
I think the only time I looked ahead when reading the books was the Red Wedding Arya chapter… the way it ended was more or less suggesting that she was killed… I had to look ahead just to make sure she didn’t, lol
This! I have always found Maisie damn cute in her boy disguise, they couldn’t make her look ugly. But I was happy to see her in her Bravosi outfit & hairstyle, it was then when I noticed that she had become a beautiful woman.
Watching her interview was a bliss, I missed Maisie a lot. I haven’t managed to watch Then Came You yet and Early Man was not good enough (even for a Manchester United fan), because I could only hear her voice. So, I have enjoyed every second of the video and I particularly liked her outfit at the first show.
I fully agree with you, ash, growing at that age was not easy for me either, and there was no fame and no social media involved!
About TWOW… I’m not going there!
Ten Bears,
Bwahaha…”What sayeth the God of Procrastination?” Lil’ better. xD And definitely accurate.
YES! As a fellow American, I thank Nina Gold for bringing us the creme de la creme of British/Irish and other European actors whom we, dismayingly, might never have gotten to know otherwise.
And Jim Broadbent as the uncreative maester…yes, it was remarkable that they were able to use recognizable people without taking you out of the world. Thank goodness they were so prescient regarding the child actors, too. We’re extremely fortunate that they were able to pull together such a perfect cast.
How sad to know that George once had such enthusiasm; I didn’t become a fan until, I think, the gap between seasons 2 & 3. Somewhere around there. Seems the pressure of being overtaken by the series and then still unable to finish by its end sapped him of a lot of that excitement.
Tron79,
I remember when posters used to call him out for being a troll because of the repetition on trailer questions I believe it was. It is interesting to see the things he says now that the show is over lol.
Jack Bauer 24,
It can’t have been easy finishing an adaptation of uncompleted books. What will be will be and I’m not giving any predictions one way or the other as to books 6 and 7 of ASOIAF. There HAVE been writers who have carried on writing (and I mean writing worthwhile books) into their senior years.
Regarding Maisie Williams having to grow up in the public eye. I remember reading that Judy Garland’s chest was bound when she played a younger than her calendar age girl in “The Wizard of Oz”.
One of the more unpleasant aspects of the internet is when some folk (and I’m not just referring to Watchers on the Wall) call anyone who has a different opinion a troll or a shill. What would have happened with the ancient Greek philosophers if folk with an opposing opinion had said “Socrates is a shill” or “Plato is a troll”.
I read some interesting theories which some I believe can be possible, and it would be amazing if some would be true, I post them in spoiler tags. Don’t read tron till you finish whole of dance.
It also made sense if you read between the lines, there was a chapter with Tyrion and Varys talking about Elia’s last word. Varys seems to know more about it. But Tyrion claimed it was Gregor. Why would Elia call the name of her raper? But that was the story that was heavily told in Casterly Rock. Gregor is also the good dog of Tywin. So he wouldn’t mind lying for Tywin. Another thing that made sense that Tywin would have done it, was that Varys has spies everywhere, he knows things more than the rest. And when Pycelle told the mad king to open the gates to Tywin. Varys seems concerned and spoke against it. Why? He was already busy with getting the mad king of his iron throne. He was waiting for Ned because Ned would have made sure the children would survive. But why would Varys care about the children? He did horrible things to children in the books, even killed them when they were older because they couldn’t be his spiders anymore. But later on that. So Varys already feared that Tywin would kill Elia and her children, and maybe better he already knew it because of his spiders. The conclusion of point 1 I do I point 2.
2. I think that Varys really switched baby Aegon, that story is legit. But has a twist I will tell later. I think Varys part is true. He needed to keep his cover so he couldnāt take out Elia and her daughter; they were too old and couldnāt be switched. We know baby switch works because of what Jon did in the north; nobody suspects a thing there, nobody here. Why Varys wants to switch the baby I tell later. Back to Tywin. What if Tywin knew? And smashed his face in? Only Aegonās face was smashed not the daughter. Or maybe Varys did it himself to keep himself safe, but I doubt for his plan itās better that people suspect a switch could have happened for the story that is happening in the present. But it comes together that Varys did it.
3. Why does Varys wants the baby? Simple he wants to put a King back on the throne with a claim. The son of Rheagar is that claim. And the reason why he didnāt safe Elia and the sister is simple. He wants to be in control of his upbringing. Giving his karl-marx worldview onto the boy. Without interfering from his mother. He wants to put a king on the throne with the right claim that is being molded how Varys wants it to be.
4. But when Varys got the baby to Pentos and stayed in KL. Illyrio told Varys that he went with the plan, but in fact killed the baby and put his son with Serra in place.
5. Why I think this is important is that I think another switch has taken place. Ned+Ashara Dayne got a baby. And Rheagar and Lyanna got a baby. We all think Jon is the son of Rheagar and Lyanna but Ned went to the Dayneās home after the tower of Joy before getting home. What if he switched the babies to raise his own son. Making Jon Ned and Asharaās son. Iām not so convinced with this theory but itās possible and falls in the line of Griff story. Because Jon is also put forth as king, but has no real claim. But the interpretation of the information they get gives the notion Jon is the true heir. Making it in the end that Daenerys was the only one with the true claim, but unworthy of the throne. Which also make what GRRM stands for come forth. The leader of a country should not be determined who youāre parent is.
Ten Bears,
That was of course wonderful. But it was in fact
Ten Bears,
It was delightful to read through those old posts from GRRM about the casting of Maisie and Sophie. Both were incredible finds, so I can see why he was so happy about them being cast as the Stark sisters. It would have been an unimaginably different show without them, or if those parts were miscast. Even with so many central/main characters in the story, GRRM himself has said that Arya, Sansa and Bran are perhaps the most central characters.
Martin will always have my gratitude for creating this wonderful world and characters, but heās lost my respect. Heās been using GOT as an excuse as to why his writing has slowed for years, and now heās gone and gotten himself involved with other shows. It doesnāt add up. If Winds was really his top priority, he wouldnāt even think about taking on side projects until itās done. Iām lucky that I was highly satisfied with the showās ending, as Martin is clearly a lost cause.
Tron79,
Iām glad youāre enjoying it! I wish I had a similar experience.
Thank you once again, Ten Bears. I do enjoy your clips and photos very much.
So, I’m curious. It sounds like you had a bad experience reading them. Do you think it’s because I’m reading them as one big book that it’s different for me? I can’t imagine going that many years (5+ years between books) and not finding out what happened to Jon for that long (for example), since he was mostly in ADWD. I guess it was alot longer than that since it took GRRM a bunch of years to write AFFC and then another 5+ years to write ADWD. I’m not really half way through yet since I’m reading both books as one. Perhaps my experience will change later..not sure… What was your experience like and where did GRRM go wrong for you? When did you read them and did you have to wait for years to find out about Dany and Jon and the folks in ADWD who weren’t in AFFC.
BTW, I survived Yom Kippur and have happily eaten again, and it wasn’t mutton….
I totally agree with you. I really feel like I’m right with the characters, and they are all being tested and pulled as you say. I’m seeing some interesting differences from the show, but coming from the show first, I always have the actors from the show in my mind. So my view is a bit different than if my imagination came up with what they would look like. But I like thinking about how the actors would have handled the book version of their characters, and I enjoy being surprised with the differences.
Yeah, I have a link to the boiled leather order (shown below), so I pull up this image sometimes and count the chapters until arya comes up again! There are a couple chapters that are Arya POV that don’t use her name. GRRM started to use some other descriptions in these books instead of just the name of the POV. It really is a major motivator for me, cuz it’s the longest series of books I’ve ever read. I’ve been a TV streamer for most of the last 5+ years and I often write reviews for TV shows on IMDB and other places. So getting back to some serious reading and turning off the TV is a major change for me, so I need a motivator when staring at 2000+ pages. Arya chapters definitely motivate me, and there are only 5 in the last two books (but they are spread out somewhat evenly) The good news is that I really do get into the POV chapters from the other characters I love from the show too. Brienne gets alot of ink time in the books as compared to the show. She has a bunch of chapters in AFFC/ADWD. She is more layered than the show. I also love GRRM’s description of fight scenes. I like his description of valyrian steel in action and the ways the characters use their weapons. I hope for everyone’s sake that GRRM’s characters start keeping him awake at night again. From what I’ve read so far in AFFC/ADWD, I can tell that he’s going to get to the ending very differently from the show route. As folks have said, he may get to the same place, but in a totally different more developed way. After reading some of Cersei’s strategy in these books that wasn’t used in the show, I can already see that there is a 95% chance that GRRM will bring us to the conclusion using a very different path (even if some of the plot points are the same). D&D did a great job with doing what they could to get these POV characters together in a way that made sense without GRRM’s book to guide them.
https://i.imgur.com/ZUltqPL.png
Tron79,
For me, when I first read the books I loved the first 3, I didn’t like the fourth, for many reasons that people who disliked the books said. The many POVS that could be done with one. for instance Dorne just Arianne instead of that kingsguard and Areo should begin in winds with his first chapter. With Iron Island the same, Damphair could have been in Winds his first. Victorion only at the end of Feast but he was introduced to early. Too many new character at one time.
I also wondered what the connection to the main story was, which didn’t help me either.
Dance I found better than Feast and Clash but not as good as GoT and SoS. It still lacked something for me, I think the action. And the build up to 2 big battles that only happen in winds. (So I think reading sample chapters would help you a lot).
Than I read Boiled Leathers from then on. It helped a lot for 2 reasons. 1. The story flows better. From Cersei to Tyrion, amazing. And the bigger picture is better. But why I really started to love boiled Leathers was that after reading the bigger version a couple of times, I saw what GRRM was going to, I saw the smaller hints in his first 3 books that this is what he was preparing us for. The return of a certain character in Tyrion’s journey. Won’t spoil it for you, was heavily told in the first 3 books. I already felt the bigger connection t the endgame better for those stories. And I understood them better after that.
What also helped that after multiple reads, you see the underlying theme and hints better, it’s a pretty smart book. And smarter than SoS in my opinion, the hints are given more cryptic and better. SoS was more action and these 2 more character driven. It become my favorite book combined. And whenever I read I’m happy when I arrive at boiled Leathers, except the first chapters where you read Damphair and Areo and that kingsguard dude, the rest perfect. (Damphair I like his second chapter which should have been his first)
Tron79,
Same here I always see Massie for arya for instance, but I have my own version of Euron because Euron from the show is much different.
Wow, I love Arianne’s character. She is quite sexy and I’m surprised they didn’t include her in the show… But things didn’t turn out too well for her in the last chapter I read of hers so not sure how much story she has… I am liking Dorne much better in the books though than the show (but that’s not a very high bar to reach!). It’s true there are too many characters for me to remember without a re-read or going back and at least reviewing the text. I love all of the Iron Born characters that GRRM describes, but I just can’t remember them with one reading. That is great that fans like you have gone back and re-read to get all the clues… You’re right that there was plenty of action in ASOS (and 10 or so Arya chapters!), but I think I’m actually reading these combined books faster for some reason. I do enjoy the character drama and there are enough twists and fights and buildup for me to keep turning. I think it must be better as you say reading it as Boiled Leather. I can’t imagine the frustration of folks when both Jon and Dany were left out of AFFC!! Jon was mentioned briefly from Samwell’s POV. I guess GRRM was way too optimistic that he would get ADWD done in a year. He says this in his prologue somewhere that hopefully folks won’t have to wait more than a year to catch up with Jon and Dany and the rest. Wow. Wow…. I’m hoping for #TWOW2020. I’m hoping that’s not optimistic…I’m forever an optimist so that’s one of my flaws sometimes, but I’m still hopeful. It is hard to hear empty promises though. In the computer world we used to call it “Vapor Ware” when companies would come out with amazing promos but haven’t finished the software yet!
Tron79,
Arianne is amazing, especially later. What chapter did you read of Arianne last?
And true Dorne in the books was not that great. And it’s a shame, they wanted season 5 to be the exciting season but I rather would have had it that they focused on the character. For instance Arya in season 4 was brilliant, not because her plot moved fast, because I think it was her slowest season, she traveled a whole season towards the Vale to get on her boat. her plot-development was minimum, but still for me it’s her best season, because her character moments and development was huge. Her bond with Sandor was build perfectly.
And season 5 wanted to get on with the plot. But personally I would have prefer less plot development in season 5 and more character development. Look at Daenerys. Her whole arc was plot-based to get her to the part that she could fly off with Drogon (I already give it away that for my little big project her going away with Drogon would not happening in the 5th season probably but depends of other character how fast I will progress her story) , and her character based storyline was put to the minimum, her struggle with her ideals against peace in Meereen, and I wish it would have ended with that. But who knows where I’m going with my project, I already understand better the struggle of D&D with time. I just finish roughly what Tyrion would have done per episode, and ended it where I wanted Tyrion to end minimum in the story, and I changed the storyline already multiple times or to dragging with some parts. It’s very close to the show version but I shuffled some things. But he did not reach Meereen yet in my version.
Tron79,
I think boiled leathers is a huge reason that it works better. And why:
Sam, Jon. The connection with the story is better. It’s fresh and you are fully in the baby switch. You understand Sam’s chapters better with the reading. We know how Gilly feels. With only Feast it takes longer till we know that. Same with Tyrion and Cersei. And even Kings Landing and Dany if I’m not mistaken words about Dany are in Feast but we don’t see why that news travels to those parts.
And agree the character development is huge in those books.
I stay optimistic too, and if it’s doesn’t arrive in 2020 than I reread the books again.
kevin1989,
Don’t read the spoiler if you didn’t read the lost lord chapter.
It’s only version 1, so more synopsis based with some sentences. And with time frame that I think it takes. Tyrion and
would be roughly 15/20% of season 5 is my guess with my project. Now I will write version 1 of Dorne. Because it’s easier to be done with that, because I will not give that story line that much time.
That’s a good point. I didn’t really get it when I read the books separately, I just remember feeling frustrated with both AFFC and ADWD but reading Sam’s chapters in AFFC alongside Jon’s chapters in ADWD does give it a fuller picture. We get the feelings and perspectives of all three characters involved and why the baby switch was done. And I wonder, based on some things that Jon and Aemon said in Jon II and Jon III ADWD, if Aemon had a hand in planning it.
I was happy to get Brienne’s POV in AFFC. But I wish we would have gotten Robb’s POV — at least in ASOS. Especially when it came to Robb’s feelings about Theon’s betrayal, deciding his will, how he felt about Catelyn’s objections to his decisions, and Jeyne Westerling.
Ten Bears,
Thanks for the pictures of young Maisie holding a sword, I didn’t see them before. She looked adorable. And she still does!
Adrianacandle,
Robbās character seemed like a very minor character in the books as compared to others and a lot of his action happened off screen. A lot of other characters were talking about what Robb was doing but we werenāt living that much with Robb. His entire relationship with Talisa wasnāt even in the books. He had a different wife with the marriage and Pre-marriage all happening off screen. I complained about things in the show happening off screen but GRRM does this with Robb in the book. I think in the show they wanted a steamy relationship for screen drama. It did work. I like some of D&Dās decisions but then they leave things out like how close Robb was with his direwolf. You could trace Robbās downfall in the book by how things changed between him
And grey wind. I wish they would have been more loyal to the books with the way grrm uses the direwolves. Itās hard to believe they were so much more expensive than those alladin dragon flights that werenāt needed. IMHO .
Tron79,
That’s fair! But I feel Robb’s role in the books was pretty significant as one of the kings in the War of the Five Kings who made this choice that led to the ruin of a Stark-led North and the Red Wedding, resulting in the Bolton rule. And I would have loved to have seen Robb’s thoughts because they reveal so much about a character, like everything that went into his decision to marry Jeyne Westerling, which led to his own death, the deaths of his men, his mother, the Red Wedding, etc.
We get a mother’s view of Robb from Catelyn, a sibling’s view from Jon, Sansa, Arya, and Bran. We get a pretty interesting view from Theon (who really did love Robb but at the same time, Robb was also on the opposing side and at the end of the day, no matter how well he was treated, Theon was still a hostage of the Starks to ensure Baelon’s good behavior).
I guess I would have really loved to have Robb’s POV in turn.
I do also wish they included more of the direwolf stuff in the show! But I keep reading how the CGI was so difficult to do because of fur (which, when I did 3D animation, fur and hair is the most difficult) and dogs are hell to work with. So I think that was the reason?
MotherofWolves,
Iām glad you liked the clips and photos.
Although Iām a latecomer to GoT and havenāt read the books yet, I find it fascinating to read contemporaneous accounts from GRRM in 2009 about how āwe found our Arya,ā and book readersā positive responses to the photos of then-unknown Maisie Williams posted by G in April, 2010, way before the first episode aired.
Who could have predicted that the show would become a global phenomenon, and that Gās predictions about MW inhabiting the role of Arya would prove to be so accurate?
Ten Bears,
I really loved reading the comments on those links! I went through and found all of the casting annoucements…. XD;;
Also — livejournal. Nostalgia world. I used to be an icon maker for whatever show I was currently obsessed with then and followed along these ridiculously complicated Photoshop tutorials to make them in order to get the exact right fake authentic vintage cross processed look š There was this 1 pt text trend to imitate mini fashion magazine layouts in 100×100 pixels. That actually was pretty fun… Fake real vintage and text you can’t read <3
Adrianacandle,
Agree, even if it was just one chapter.
And I think the adding of the pov’s was a huge problem. Clash added theon who was already a secondary character in game, Davos was new so only 1 new character to get to know. Storm only added 2 secondary characters no new characters. And Feast added 4 secondary character from previous books and 4 new characters. Same with Dance it added 2 secondary from previous books and 2 new. Feast added too much for one book. He should have sticked with his first plan, no deviding. Just add Yara and Arianne in Feast with of course Brienne and Cersei. And just break the story somehwere around 1000 pages in. Than Dance could have added Victorion as a pov, and maybe Areo Hotah, and Jon Connington, and Barristan who were already secondary in feast at that moment. And only Quentyn as a new POV that we never saw in another POV chapter. And in Winds which is revealed won’t give us any new POV. Would have been great if that added Damphair. And let it all crash down at the end of winds with killing POVs. (which I already suspect will happen).
I think that would have been better.
Tron79,
hahahaha Alladin dragon flight. Jon: What’s happening. Dany: I want to show you the world (singing)….
And true, D&D did many things right, Talisa was one of them. But it’s a shame that back then I have a feeling they wanted to give us more information of Volantis because of Dance of Dragons. But it was left out in the show.
kevin1989,
Oh yes, all the new POV characters. I kind of remember those driving me insane — I felt it was a lot to have to invest in all at once while I was just wanting to know what was happening with Jon, Dany, Arya, Sansa, Theon, Tyrion, Jaime, Brienne, Cersei, etc. I did enjoy getting a POV for Davos, Brienne, Theon, and Melisandre. I really found Theon and Melisandre’s POVs interesting, especially Melisandre and how she views other POV characters, POV characters who don’t like her (Davos, Jon) — especially because she really does believe in what she’s doing and that these heinous actions (burning people alive as a sacrifice) are for the greater good. For all her faults (burning people at the stake), she’s sincere. There’s no ulterior motive.
Thanks for the Aladdin earworm btw!!
Adrianacandle,
But that’s because we already knew them but we wanted that POV. Same with Asha, once her POV happened I was happy, we waited that long for it. We knew her already but now we got to know her from within instead of how Tyrion saw her. It was a nice addition. Same with Brienne or Cersei, we knew them. But with all those new characters, we didn’t knew one information about them. Yes we have heard Theon talk about his uncles, but that was it. For all those new character in Feast I didn’t even know they excised. And there they were. I wouldn’t mind 1 max 2 completely new characters, it’s easy to get into, fresh blood. But not overkill.
One new character I though George did very well was in fact the lost lord (I use the POV name so Tron doesn’t get spoiled if he didn’t read it yet). The whole storyline of him was build with the 6 or 7 chapters from
. We already knew that character a bit, the storyline of the lost lord was started in that know character. And once
left that storyline, we really wanted to know how that storyline moved further so we really wanted the pov of the lost lord. It was done perfectly.
Yes, I agree it would have been nice to have Robb’s POV. I mostly remember his mom’s POV. As you say, everyone is talking about Robb…we’re just not hearing from Robb. That is odd that Robb didn’t have a POV chapter of his own, and I’m sure others have written papers on the subject somewhere. The birds certainly were able to carry news of Robb’s latest battle to the various power groups… The birds got around alot! Perhaps there should have been a Raven POV!
I think they should have spent the money on the direwolves even if it was hard to do the fur. I was fine with how Jon’s reunion with Ghost looked. Perhaps the fur looked a little fake, but I liked the size of Ghost as compared to trying to just use regular wolves. I also liked the size of Nymeria in Arya’s big reunion scene. So I think they knew how to do it. The direwolves were just the very heart of GRRM’s story. GRRM says in his interviews how the very first thought he had was the scene with the 6 direwolves. That’s the genesis of GOT, so to not spend the money on the direwolves and to be loyal to the books is like leaving out the heart somehow. I guess I have a pretty strong opinion of that one. That’s one thing that has changed for me because of my book journey. I thought as a show watcher the direwolves were cool and I missed seeing Ghost, but I really didn’t see them as such a major part of the story and the heart of the characters as I do in the books.
and Kevin I finished Arianne’s chapter when she…
kevin1989,
I’m about to go to bed but just from a quick reading, I wanted to say those are my very same feelings re:POV characters. I loved getting the POVs of characters we kind of knew already but then we get their insight. With brand new POVs from characters we’ve never heard of before, it’s like starting from square one in a story where I am already invested in all these different people. You’re right, 1 or 2 is fine but I think the amount we got — yes — it was kind of overkill.
Agreed about the Lost Lord!! š
I recall one interview with GRRM saying he wished he had put in a Robb POV chapter — I’ll have to find it when I wake up but I like Kevin’s suggestion of even just one POV for him — like with Melisandre! It just adds soooo much, I think š
Oh, they totally did know how to do the direwolves but I think the amount of work that went into them may have made it too much of a burden. But I did find it bizarre how little we had of them, especially in the later seasons. We don’t have to go to the extent of the books necessarily (yes, the direwolves and the connections between them and their Stark kid are much more significant — they all seem to be wargs, and I think Sansa might have been had she not lost hers so early) but they almost seemed to be like an afterthought in the show, which loses much of the story. I agree there.
In general, GRRM’s books include far more magic than the show. The show seems a bit more “real-world” than the books, which include a lot of strange religion, magic, prophecy, the magic in Winterfell, its crypts, the old kings of winter, the Old Gods, the magic in the Wall, the mystery around the Others (who are alive?), Valyria, strange lands in the east, potential Jojen paste… š
Tron79,
No, it wasnāt the wait between books. I started reading after all the books were already released. I have several issues. I didnāt like any of the new POV characters. I felt each and every one of them paled in comparison to the POV characters of the first three books. I didnāt like how a lot of the plots went nowhere and that most of everything that happened in the books was filler. I also felt like almost every storyline was incomplete. They were two books of build up but with absolutely no pay off. Combining the books may fix many of the pacing problems, but they wonāt come close to fixing everything. Maybe my opinion of the books will change once Winds is released, but the fact that a third book is needed to make any sense of the first two is a showcase of bad writing, imo. My final problem with the books is that if Martin never finishes, Feast and Dance will be to blame.
Yeah I do know what you mean. I’m about 600 or 650 pages in so far now, and at 2000 pages that really not that far along yet. I read Sansa’s chapter not long ago titled Alayne, and I was totally confused for page or so until I finally realized ALyane was Sansa! I forgot she was using the name Alayne to hide out in the Vale. GRRM also uses more cryptic POV titles in these books instead of just saying the character’s name. With as many characters as he’s created I can see that it can get frustrating that you have a new POV and still can’t back to following your favorite’s story. I was that way in the show too. I think we all probably have favorites who we follow. And we hope that the other POV’s are leading us to some destination. We’ll see how it goes for me as I get farther along. I’m hoping to get another 100 pages in tomorrow hopefully, and Saturday afternoon is usually another lazy day so I can get alot of pages in…Most of the other days not so much right now… We’ll see if my opinion changes after another 500 pages or so…
Tron79,
I think you should be Ok with it, I struggled with Dorne the most, and you seem to be enjoying it more than me. There is one other plot I didn’t like, but I wont say in case you haven’t got to it yet, it’s related to one of Dany’s would-be suitors.
I see that you have read a few Cersei chapters, what do you make of her? I had Season 1/2 Cersei in mind when I got to AFFC, and I was shocked when I got inside her head, I had no idea that she was so…. nasty and delusional. She doesn’t even love her children as she does in the show (her one redeeming quality) they are just extensions of herself. She’s also a misogynist, some of the things she says about women are vile, though I understand her resentment to a point. It’s hard to imagine Jaime and Tyrion colluding to save her as they did in the show. It could happen in Jaime’s case, but she’s so so awful. I Still don’t blame her for offing Robert though.
Adrianacandle,
Not to change the subject…
Iām just curious: Are there any Sandor POV chapters in the books? Or is the character of the Hound portrayed through other characters with whom he interacts, e.g., Sansa and Arya?
I can imagine that without getting inside his head to get a glimpse of his internal thoughts, the Hound could come off as a one-note. two dimensional character – like the mindless brute heās intially portrayed as on the show, with dialogue like ākilling is the sweetest thing there isā, and āthe world is built by killersā; and slaughtering overmatched opponents in the S2e1 exhibition for Joffrey (āwell struck, Dog!ā).
On the show, it wasnāt until S4e7 that we got to get inside Sandorās head when he let his guard down and told Arya the story about how Gregor burned him when he was a little boy. LF told that story to Sansa and Arya in S1 – without conveying the lasting psychological trauma Sandor suffered, as he revealed in his scene with Arya in S4.
For all the whinging from certain segments of the fandom about the show ābutcheringā Stannis, Jon and other book characters, and giving unsatisfying or inexplicable conclusions to certain character arcs, I thought the show did a fabulous job with Sandor Clegane. (The best part? Showing the evolution of his character and his joining up with the Good Guys without
diluting his foul-mouthed, bad-tempered, confrontational personality. It wouldāve sucked if theyād turned him into a touchy-feely, peace-love-and Frisbees, warm and fuzzy sidekick.)
P.S. To be fair, I wasnāt happy with the brief Sansa-Sandor reunion in S8e4. I thought their early interactions in KL merited a better payoff. Plus, his his comment to her that sheād been ābroken in roughā, and her reply that sheād still be a little bird but for LF and Ramsay, struck me as… inappropriate and out of character.
Maybe Iām guilty of whining because their reunion didnāt play out the way Iād expected, and was all too short.
Jenny,
In the show, Cersei came off as the victim of an emotionally distant, selfish father and an emotionally unavailable, abusive husband. It made her a somewhat sympathetic character.
I guess Book! Cersei was different?
It might sound like I’m changing subjects, but it’s related. I’m excited to watch His Dark Materials. Old Bear Mormont shows up alot in the new trailer btw. But in HDM, they all have deamon animals that relate to them. I think this is a little similar how in GOT, the different clans have their own spirit animals like the direwolves and the snake in the case of Dorne. I got into GRRM’s description of the sand and the snakes and all of that. I could feel like I was in Dorne, and the ladies are pretty sexy so that doesn’t hurt either…We’ll see how the story goes though…But I think what drew me in was feeling like I was a desert person… It made more sense that they used poison with as much as they talked about snakes, etc..
Regarding Cersei.
Tron79,
ā… GRRM also uses more cryptic POV titles in these books instead of just saying the characterās name.ā
_____
I will say this: When I stumbled upon the TWOW sample chapter titled āMercyā, I was delighted
Ten Bears,
Oh she is an interesting one, this is where her internalised misogyny comes into play, she resents being a woman, because she saw that Jaime was treated differently and she was sold off like a horse, she wanted to marry Rheagar and never got over it. She probably would have ditched Jaime if she had been married to Rheagar, but he was still useful to her once that fell apart. I think she did love Jaime, but only when she could control him and he looked like her, he was her ‘shadow’.
She also thinks she is Tywin reborn, and only held back by her gender, unfortunately she is delusional, because she is an idiot. Her husband is abusive, so she is justified in hating him and I had no real problem with her killing him, but GRRM had her do things in her youth that made it clear that she was a nasty piece of work from the get go. I’d say what it is, but I don’t know how to put things in spoilers, do you know? She also abuses Tommen in AFFC, I’ll put that in spoilers if someone helps me out.
Tron79,
Yeah, he is emotionally divorced from the kids, that’s how he deals with, or doesn’t deal with things, he just dissociates from it. I think he was even jealous of them, he wasn’t their father and they got in the way of his relationship with Cersei… so gross lol. Jaime actually thought Cersei was faithful to him, its a major blow to him and he obsesses over it for quite a while, but it does start to go somewhere as he reevaluates the relationship, he’s super bitter. I’ll let you read more, because Cersei really goes places in AFFC, and some things with the kids may not have happened yet, it subtly comes back into Jaime’s chapters as well.
Jenny,
As for Cersei being āa nasty piece of work from the get-goā:
On the show at least, when Oberyn told Tyrion the story about traveling to Casterly Rock when Tyrion was ājust a babyā, and described how Cersei tortured him in his crib for ākillingā her mother, my thought was that was all on Tywin – teaching his young daughter to be hateful and spiteful.
Was she born evil – or was she raised to be that way?
Ten Bears,
I don’t remember clearly, but I don’t recall her being raised to be cruel, she was expected to be a lady and get married, that’s about it, that’s pretty much the same as all of the other high born ladies. Nothing stands out in my memory, maybe somebody else knows? I do blame Tywin for pretty much everything though, father of the year….
I think she is a narcissist to the point that she wants to have sex with herself (Jaime). Tywin was kind of a narcissist too, so perhaps the apple didn’t fall far from the tree, and she certainly felt the loss of her mother. I think in the first few books, we were meant to think that she is a product of her upbringing and her marriage, but once she becomes a POV character, you see that it’s not entirely the reason, and if it was, she has gone far beyond that. Although, in the books she orders the murder of the babies in S2, not Joffrey, so perhaps not.
A lot of people prefer show Cersei who is more sympathetic, you can sympathise with book Cersei in some aspects, but its easy to forget while she is out there doing her thing (and its bad), some people think she is a bit one note in the book, a pure villain, but there are still things to unpack with her. GRRM said he had to take showers after writing her chapters, they do get quite dark.
Adrianacandle,
Hereās what I mean when I asked if Sandor has any POV chapters in the books that parallel his āPOVā recollection about Gregor burning him in S4e7:
I admired that scene so much because Rory McCann seamlessly portrayed what I call a āSpectrum of Emotionsā (just as Maisie Williams was somehow able to do in her S1e2 scene with Nymeria, Jon & Needle).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0D_qFIiqLQ
The S4e7 scene starts out with Sandor cursing as he tries to stitch up the bite wound on his neck, then barks at Arya (āNo fire!ā)when she approaches with a burning stick to cauterize the wound.
First he lashes out at her:
āShut up about it! Shut up about everything! ….Wish Iād never laid eyes on you!ā
Then he looks over at Arya cleaning Needle, and remarks: āYou say your brother gave you that sword. My brother gave me this.ā[pointing to his burned cheek]
When she asks āwhy?ā, he reverts back to the voice of his younger self in recounting what happened when he was a boy, and then reveals that it was the betrayal that scarred him more than anything:
āThe pain was bad. The smell was worse. But the worst thing was that it was my brother who did it. And my father, who protected him – told everyone my bedding caught fire.ā
He then pauses, looks over at Arya, and empathizes with her:
āYou think youāre on your own?ā
(Arya looks over and asks āLet me wash it out; help you sew it up at leastā; Sandor, with his head down, barely nods and lets her minister to his wound.)
Iāve probably overanalyzed this scene. I guess Iām just curious if there are any passages in the books that give insight into why Sandor Clegane assumed āthe Houndā personna.
Tron79,
You seem to be really enjoying it so far, though. And as I told you before, based on my experience online, Iām in the minority. I agree that the POV titles was an odd change, and I wonder why Martin decided to change his format. There are some things I preferred in those books. As you said, the kingsmoot was much more fleshed out. I did like Theonās inclusion and his speech in the show, but other than that, I liked the scene better in the books. I also liked Dorne better in the books, but thatās not really saying much. Iām glad D&D axed it in the show, whereas Martin seems to be doubling down.
Iāve been trying to keep up with all your posts about the books, but I havenāt exactly been successful. I know youāve mentioned a few characters and storylines you wished the show included earlier in the article, but are there any others you wished the show included from the Boiled Leather and the first three books? Conversely, is there any show change that you preferred over the books? Sorry if Iām asking you to repeat yourself.
Ten Bears,
Unfortunately, Sandor has no POV — but he’s a character who I’d love to get one from, especially in his interactions with Arya and Sansa.
The Arya-Sandor road trip is adapted from Arya VIII (he captures her at the end of this chapter), Arya IX, Arya X, Arya XI, Arya XII, and Arya XIII in A Storm of Swords — so if you want to read only the chapters in which Arya and Sandor are traveling together, go for those ones! š I found them very good!
I think Sandor is largely the same as his book counterpart. While Jon is dumbed down in the show (I think the broad strokes and motivations are the same but while he’s more strategic, he still makes fatal errors in the books) and Stannis has been turned into kind of a religious fanatic (his book counterpart doesn’t put much faith in religion and is entirely devoted to duty. He’s harsh, but dutiful), I think Sandor seems a bit rougher, his injuries are more grotesque, and he’s younger (27-28), but he seems about the same, particularly with Arya and Sansa.
There’s this passage with a 12-year old Sansa that reveals why Sandor lets people call him the Hound:
Ten Bears,
Re:Sandor and fire, these are passages you might like!
Sandor on Arya making a fire when he notices her shivering and when he finds Arya looking at his face:
I also remembered this passage that might be relevant:
Ten Bears,
Typo!
*”Sandor on Arya making a fire when he notices her shivering and when he finds Arya looking at his face” should read “Sandor making a fire when he notices Arya shivering and when he finds Arya looking at his face.”
This was another phrasing fatality due to my frequent decisions to rearrange sentences at the last minute…
Ten Bears,
Sandor is not a POV yet. He may still become, if he’s alive as some people theorize (that would be very challenging for the author, if he begins writing him after his “reform”). In the books some of the characters who know him think of him as dead (e.g. Brienne).
So we see Sandor so far only through others’ POVs. Sandor is important for both Sansa and Arya. He’s there to prove to them that there’s no black and white, that surface isn’t essence, that what they see may be false. And the girls are important to Sandor too. From Sansa he learns that there is kindness and compassion and that there’s still good people and beauty in this world. He protects her from the blows that Joffrey and others like to inflict on her and perhaps without her influence on him he wouldn’t have protected Arya. For Arya I guess he’s a hard test on justice: how far would Arya go to see that justice is served? He actually saves her life, so does he deserve to die?
With Sandor, Bron and some other characters perhaps the Q-ratings are reason why they took as much screen time as they did. Also regarding Sandor perhaps they had a tip from Martin that he’s alive and under “reformation” (which is why he reappears suddenly building a sept).
Narratively wise there was absolutely no reason for Sandor to meet Sansa in the show (or the books for that matter) and talk to her. It felt like the producers were answering the SanSan fandom, which is gross no matter how you see it. Sandor is frightening to Sansa and even in the show it’d be stupid to leave with him. They’ve had her apologizing to Sandor for not leaving with him, and to Tyrion for abandoning him, as if she existed only to satisfy men’s needs who happened to be the fandom’s favorites. (ok, I’ll say no more because venom slips out of me).
The story Sandor tells to Arya in the show about his burns is told to Sansa in the books (quite early, in AGOT, Sansa II). If I’m not mistaken that’s the case for several of his lines. The show downplayed his relationship with Sansa but extended it with Arya, I think.
Cersei’s a bitch. Pure and simple. Nothing to do with Tywin, even though legacies and upbringing are an important theme in ASOIAF (Starks vs Lannisters vs Targaryens). She wants to be a man in reality and she sees her children as extension of herself, a tool that will help her get the power she wants. She’d have them babies and herself queen regent forever, if she could. Unluckily for her, children tend to grow. She was smitten with Rhaegar because he was the prince and he was handsome, but she was also smitten with Robert for the same reason, but Robert never wanted her and she knew right away. She suffered everything that she did because she was waiting right that moment when her children would secure her the power she needed and she’d be able to get rid of Robert. Unfortunately Joffrey wouldn’t listen to her, but Tommen is still too young. Although he’s eight, she treats him like he’s four and keeps him away from the training that is suited for a king.
Cersei also hates other women, which is something that really struck me in the books. She literally hates all women and all men and thinks that she’s better than them, smarter, more beautiful etc. She surrounds herself with idiots and mediocre ministers at best, because that makes her smarter in her head. In AFFC she has a woman lover who’s in it to gain things for her husband and Cersei knows.
In sum, she’s a walking nightmare, lol. Good thing she doesn’t really exist.
Yes, I agree with your thoughts on Cersei (and in your posts before this one too)! As for spoilers, if you surround your text with this code (but remove the spaces): [ spoiler ] text text text [ / spoiler ] , it’ll be hidden by the spoiler grey š
Adrianacandle,
āhe Arya-Sandor road trip is adapted from Arya VIII (he captures her at the end of this chapter), Arya IX, Arya X, Arya XI, Arya XII, and Arya XIII in A Storm of Swords ā so if you want to read only the chapters in which Arya and Sandor are traveling together, go for those ones! š I found them very good!
_____
So, the āBoiled Chickenā version. Iāll have to check out those chapters from A Storm of Swords. ššš
Thanks!
mau,
Your comment made me think back to my 3rd grade play. We were doing A Christmas Carol and I was lucky to get one of the lead parts, the Ghost of Christmas Past. I was so excited.
But then came the costumes and the script. In our version, the Ghost of Christmas Past was basically an old crone with a big nose and an ugly hooded robe. I cried when I had to put it on for dress rehearsal and was ashamed to be seen on stage.
Meanwhile, the Ghosts of Christmas Present and Future got the CUTEST outfits. “Present” was a Madonna look-alike girl with multi-colored hair (very 80s), and “Future” was basically a glowing, glittery princess.
I was only 9 years old and I couldn’t understand why the other girls all got to look so cute and I had to be an ugly old crone. I remember wondering if I got the part because everyone thought I was ugly and unpopular (in reality I wasn’t any more of less popular than the average kid, but I didn’t know that at the time). But kids just don’t have that kind of perspective.
It’s not some big traumatic moment in my past, haven’t thought about that in 30+ years. But your comment took me back. I can only imagine what little-girl-Maisie was thinking during those years.
Adrianacandle,
Ooh, these passages are good! And from what I can tell from reading them, the dialogue was adapted well to the show.
Ten Bears,
Yes, the dialogue was really nicely adapted! And there’s stuff with the Mountain too. I think the “your brother gave you that sword, my brother gave me this,” might be from:
No problem! The inn scene happens in Arya’s final chapter in A Storm of Swords — but no chicken demands or Brienne encounter š Still a very good chapter!
Efi,
ā…Narratively wise there was absolutely no reason for Sandor to meet Sansa in the show (or the books for that matter) and talk to her. It felt like the producers were answering the SanSan fandom…ā
_____
From the show at least, I thought the scene when Sandor goes back to brave the mob during the KL riot to rescue Sansa was supposed to suggest that despite his insistence that heās no knight, his actions spoke otherwise, e.g., rescuing the damsel in distress. (Though Iām still not entirely sure what he meant after he got back to the Red Keep: Tyrion said āWell done, Cleganeā, and Sandor replied: āI didnāt do it for you.ā )
As for the SanSan fandom, if the showrunners wanted to cater to them, wouldnāt there have been some high thread count interactions in S8 instead of that one odd abbreviated encounter in S8e4?
Adrianacandle,
Wait, WTF? No chickens??? Was that a show-only detail?
Adrianacandle,
āSandorās laugh was half a growl. āThe little wolf bitch wants to join the Nightās Watch, does she?ā
Well, now I know where they got Sandorās sobriquet for Arya in S8e1: ācold little bitch.ā
Sadly, there are no chicken references (that I can recall) in relation to Sandor in the books š
There is another called the chicken-eater however…
That was my impression too… it felt natural to the Hound’s character. To insist he’s no knight, spout rough words, but still saves the girl — proving he might not look/sound/or act like a knight but he does what a knight does.
(For the record, I am no fan of SanSan! Didn’t even know it existed until I sought out the online fandom. Because Sansa’s 11-14 and he’s…. not….)
Yup! XD I feel Sandor from the books to the show is a pretty consistent adaptation š
ThisGirlHasNoName,
If itās any consolation, my junior high school German class staged āSnow White and the Seven Dwarvesā for some kind of county-wide competition. The girl I had a huge crush on played Snow White. Her parents were German so she spoke the language fluently.
I got the role of Mirror, Mirror on the Wall. I had to walk on stage wrapped in aluminum foil. That got a huge laugh from the audience, but I was mortified.
Adrianacandle,
ā… That was my impression tooā¦ it felt natural to the Houndās character. To insist heās no knight, spout rough words, but still saves the girl ā proving he might not look/sound/or act like a knight but he does what a knight does.ā
_______
I donāt know how or whether GRRM will reintroduce Sandor in the books – if there ever is another book. All I can say is that Iām content with how the show completed Sandorās story.
I suppose a full-blown Sansa & Sandor story line in S8 wouldāve taken up too much screen time; Iām glad they focused on Arya & Sandor, though I will always believe that it came at the expense of Arya & Jon.
(I donāt know why I get choked up watching that S8e2 scene when Sandor turns to Arya and says āI fought for you, didnāt I?ā)
Ten Bears,
Arya and Sandor’s stories are the ones I feel content with. The others, I have varying degrees of issues with (flashback to being 15 and my friend sitting across from me on the train with this out-of-nowhere declaration, “I don’t have issues. You have issues. Everyone else has issues, I don’t have issues.” ;D It’s true… I will always have issues…)
I feel a lot of relationship development and exploration got shortchanged in season 8. I think, even if we had two full seasons for season 7 and 8, it would have been so much better.
So I will have to follow your Ten Bear’s Boiled Chicken journey for my first re-read! That’s awesome. I will definitely do that. I’ve already forgotten some of the exact dialogue that Adrianacandle pasted. It will be great to revisit those scenes again all back to back!
It’s even possible that Sandor’s POV could be called “A Broken Man” just like the show. (It could be confused with Bran though) GRRM has been using those sort of POV titles in these last two books. “Cat of the Canals” is my next Arya chapter a ways down the reading road…. Thinking of show timeline, Arya just left the HOBAW on her first mission selling āOysters, clams, and cockles!ā She’s learned just enough Braavosi to say a few words like “Oysters, clams, and cockles!ā
Me too!
I would have to 100% agree with that (shocker, I know!), though I would give an honourable mention to Sansa since she had a strong arc throughout the series as well (in regards to main characters). For supporting characters an honourable mention would have to go to Brienne.
With all this Arya & Sandor talk.. check out this amazing fan art of the two of them:
Arya & Sandor, season 4
Arya & Sandor, season 8
Efi,
Yeah, I agree with yours and Jenny’s assessments of Cersei. But I really enjoy her still…
This quote from Cersei when she reads a report that Theon killed Bran and Rickon. Tyrion reminds her she wanted Bran dead and hopes Catelyn believes Cersei had nothing to do with it.
Cersei’s response:
lol, there’s me trying to tread lightly and you just come out with it, it made me laugh. I think she would have been raised by Joanna first and foremost, until she was 8-9 and I’ve never heard anything bad about Joanna, she bossed Tywin around at home apparently. As a young girl (Tron, don’t read to be on the safe side)
‘The words came tumbling out of her. She could still hear Melara Hetherspoon insisting that if they never spoke about the prophecies, they would not come true. She was not so silent in the well, though. She screamed and shouted.’
I remember breezing past that last line, and then it dawned on me pages later and I had to go back to double check. For all the talk of Jaime’s jealousy, Cersei is as bad if not worse, we just don’t see much of it because he never strays. She’d just have anyone involved with Jaime murdered.
Re: Tommen
Mother of the year!!
Adrianacandle,
Thank you! That has been bugging me for ages.
There must be some comparisons to be drawn between Cersei, Brienne and Arya, all 3 pushed back against gender norms for different reasons and with varying success. Although I don’t think Cersei would have gone down that route even if she had been allowed, she would probably find them both ridiculous, she hates being a woman, but she won’t stray from her role.
Adrianacandle,
Oh so do I, her chapters are great, sometimes they are so outrageous I end up laughing, her favourite line, ‘as useless as nipples on a breastplate’ always amuses me. I think GRRM added a certain thing I mention in the post above to say ‘hey you thought she was alright before her horrible horrible marriage? Well, check this out’. He wanted us to know that she like that from childhood.
Jenny,
That’s because Robert was a Vile man also, even when we only saw the farce that Ned saw in him.
Ten Bears,
She still has those, only difference is that show Cersei at least tried at the beginning to be a better version of herself for her kids, but in the books she doesn’t love her children as much as in the show, at least that’s how I perceive it. Maybe winds tells us that she indeed love her children very much. I think for a show, what they did was better for Cersei, difficult to bring book Cersei 100% to the screen. Still she is interesting in the books.
Young Dragon,
As for first 3 books, I only really wish that one scene from Arya in it, where she played in the mud, and tore that ladies dress, where the lady tells her in the end that Arya was beautiful. Maybe some other minor stuff I would like to have in it.
As for Dorne and Iron Island storyline, I think I found the importance. And if that came true in winds I think those storylines have a huge pay-off, and I’m hope you will like those stories better then. I tell that in another post when I get back from work. Got to go.
Adrianacandle,
“Yeah, I agree with yours and Jennyās assessments of Cersei. But I really enjoy her stillā¦”
Let’s say she’s still surprising after all these chapters, lol.
Ten Bears,
Yeah, it’s my overall impression that season 8 tried hard to answer all these fans out there and close all these talks about different theories (same with Theon for example). Things like that make me doubt that they really understood ASOIAF and its themes (and they are guys who studied literature), but in the end I believe that they did understand, they just simply chose to make a TV show that became out-of-proportion popular. And that’s to be respected because after all they’re not writers themselves, they’re in the TV business; perhaps if they had cut back a little on those things (which really bothered a lot of people, like that Sandor-Sansa talk) season 8 wouldn’t feel rushed, or forced, because that screentime would have been devoted to other things (in an imaginary universe not the Lannister boys again, lol).
As for the SanSan fandom, if my memory doesn’t deceive me they did (one of them; David? Dan? Cogman?) answer a question about it and said it’s nonsense.
Sandor is the one who shows Sansa the real world. She already has a bitter experience with the killing of her wolf pup. But Sansa has a fairytale version of reality in her head (she’s just a 12 y-o kid, who grew up very protected and safe). She thinks that princes, kings and queens and princesses are kind, beautiful, noble, and she is scared of people like Sandor who are seemingly cruel and indifferent to people’s suffering, and who are ugly. And yet it is Sandor who defends her over and over and in the bread riot incident actually saves her from being raped and perhaps killed.
Between them there’s a version of the beauty and the beast trope. Sandor is truly a beast; he’s ugly, deformed, and Sansa is scared of him up till the very last moment (which is why she doesn’t leave with him). He puts a knife to her throat and forces a song out of her and his narration of the event to Arya actually sounds very sexual; and Sansa was afraid that she’d be raped that night. Sandor, like all beasts in her arc, (Joffrey, Tyrion, now Harry the Heir and of course LF) projects on her his view of the world, what he thinks, believes, likes. Sansa won’t trust anyone if mutual understanding is not reached, if there is no respect between them, if she doesn’t get asked what she wants, believes, likes (which is the original Cocteau version of the trope), even if Sandor saved her over and over, but she did learn that whatever shines is not gold and that there’s gold even in the mud (so to speak).
Excerpt:
“What do you think a knight is for, girl? You think it’s all taking favors from ladies and looking fine in gold plate? Knights are for killing. I killed my first man at twelve. I’ve lost count of how many I’ve killed since then. High lords with old names, fat rich men dressed in velvet, knights puffed up like bladders with their honors, yes, and women and children tooāthey’re all meat, and I’m the butcher.” ACoK, Sansa IV.
(And for not taking credits for the excerpt, because I’m not one searching the books and copying them, nor do I have a full database like Adriana, I took it from the Wiki of Ice and Fire. You might want to check it out, it’s a very good encyclopedia on ASOIAF with Martin’s blessings)
Ten Bears,
Forgot:
“Damsel in distress” may work in the bread riot incident. However I’m not sure it’s this or still part of the BatB trope. It’s a very well-known trope, however Martin subverts it, since Sandor is not the beautiful prince, or knight, and Sansa is generally afraid of him. Sansa herself is the personification of the Damsel. But unlike the fairytales, she has to come down from her captivity tower herself. (no one comes to rescue her from the Lannisters).
Another scene that has classic Damsel references is the one Jon sees Val at the tower window in Castle Black. Val is beautiful, long blonde hair etc, and the scene is almost the exact Damsel trope replica, but Val is far from “damsel in distress” herself, because she’s a warrior princess (not Ninja assassin however, lol).
Cross-posting from the Emmys thread – I meant to put it here originally.
Iām not going to try and predict any ways the storylines will go forward in TWoW ā though we know from the preview chapters how some of it will proceed. My predictions were usually way off ā Iād caught on that Jon was probably Rhaegar and Lyannaās son but that was quite a popular theory on the internet anyway, so maybe I saw one of those predictions. Iād thought about perhaps there being a Jaime and Sansa hook-up (in the books) because if Sansa was the younger more beautiful queen Jaime was one of the people Cersei held dear ā Jaime and Cerseiās rift happened differently in the books to the show, but I was off in that speculation.
One of the sidelines in the books that I quite liked was the implication that the cat Arya chased through the tunnels was possibly Rhaegarās and Eliaās daughterās kitten all grown up and wild. I have cats on the mind because my kitty died this morning. I was aware something wasnāt right three months ago but sheād really been ailing the last week. Iād tried (not with a lot of success) to try and get her to eat something over the last couple of days and of course I wonder now should I just have left her in peace. Still, ātout passe, tout casse, tout lasseā. In the books (I think I can say this without spoiling things) Margery gives Tommen three kittens and Ser Pounce was one of those kittens.
Iāve had comments disappear in the past though sometimes they have rematerialised from the ether later.
Yeah, I had been thinking the same thing — and I think they react differently to their own femininity. As you said, Cersei hates femininity but won’t stray from her feminine roles (using her femininity to manipulate in some cases), despite her hatred for her gender. In contrast, I don’t get the impression Brienne or Arya hate being female and would rather be men, like Cersei does, but Brienne and Arya have different issues with feminity. And they don’t appear to hate other women just because they’re women.
I think a difference between Arya and Brienne is Brienne may have some desire to be traditionally ladylike. But when she had tried, people mocked Brienne because she physically lacks traditionally feminine features and her own traits and talents made her suited to roles (like fighting) that don’t fit Westeros’s gender roles — and even then, Brienne was still met with mockery and rejection so she yearns for approval.
Brienne’s own septa would tell her how slow, large, and “mannish” she was and the only reason a man would want her would be because of her father. And appears to view wariness of others a necessity:
Meanwhile, Arya has some similarities — she struggles with traditionally feminine roles but I don’t think she has a desire to be anyone’s lady in a traditional sense, she’s drawn toward things like combat and horseback riding. Still, Arya is hurt that Sansa excels at all the traditionally ladylike boxes (beautiful, good at ladylike pursuits, met with praise) while the only things Arya is better at than Sansa are things like riding a horse, archery — activities that aren’t approved for highborn ladies. She is chided for her lack of skill (and interest) in traditional feminine pursuits and her looks are mocked by Sansa’s friend Jeyne Poole, who calls her “Arya Horseface and [would] neigh whenever [Arya] came near.ā Catelyn seems frustrated with Arya’s refusal to comply and believes Arya needes refinement while Arya believes the only ones who ever thought she was pretty were her father and Jon (āGood.ā She had never cared if she was pretty, even when she was stupid Arya Stark. Only her father had ever called her that. Him, and Jon). But like Brienne, despite Arya’s inability (or desire) to fit traditional Westerosi gender roles, she doesn’t resent other women.
Cersei is one of the most beautiful women in Westeros fulfills Westerosi’s gender roles but despises her own femininity for being limiting. She wants to be a man, resents other women, and resents that despite her and Jaime being twins, they are treated differently and have different futures because of gender, blocking Cersei from what she wants and how she views herself. But like you said, Cersei never seeks to depart from her feminine role and lets her resentment of her femininity fester.
Or I could be wrong on all this š
Adrianacandle,
No, I think you are exactly right! You’ve summarised it really well. There was a scene in S3, when Jaime was dying, Brienne told him to stop whining, because he sounded like a bloody woman. I cringed, Brienne would NEVER say that, she has no dislike for women, she wishes she could be more lady like and admires Cat’s ‘woman’s courage’. She is the one who yearns for a nice husband and home (I think GRRM called her Sansa with a sword *cries*) but can’t have it, Arya can have it, but doesn’t want it, and Cersei is…. Cersei lol. Like you say though, Arya does feel inadequate next to Sansa when it comes to a lady’s accomplishments, but she enjoys other things, like Lyanna.
I think they struggled with Brienne a bit in the show, they didn’t really show how much she was affected by this stuff, hence why people were shocked by her crying in S8. I wonder if it was due to the age, she’s 19 in the book and 30ish in the show, so more comfortable in her skin and position I think.
Efi,
At the time D&D and GRRM came to an agreement to adapt ASOIAF, they didn’t expect that the show would get ahead of the books. They signed up to adapt books, not to write the end of Game of Thrones. And all GRRM could give them there was what he had intended to do.
But I have no idea why they had to have a shortened two final seasons…
As for theories, these theories may truly not have been the story GRRM was intending to tell (although, I think the storyline with the Others will be resolved differently because as of yet, there is no Night King, and the Others are characterized somewhat differently. ie: they’re not dead and it seems they have their own motivations).
Well, Sansa doesn’t actually sing for Sandor in that passage — not in the literal or metaphorical sense.
It’s my impression that we’re not intended to view anything sexual between Sandor and Sansa. In that aforementioned quoted ACOK passage, Sansa doesn’t seem afraid Sandor will rape her and Sandor doesn’t give this threat. Instead, when Cersei brings Ser Ilyn in to defend them during the Battle of Blackwater Bay, Sansa wishes Sandor were defending them instead because:
When Sandor talks about Sansa to Arya, it seems he is deliberately trying to get under Arya’s skin. Arya accuses him of lying about Sansa — and he is:
—-
The thing here is, Sansa still needs and receives help in getting away from the Lannisters — but it isn’t from gallant knights. She is spirited away by Ser Dontos, who is definitely not the image of a fairytale knight, which is arranged by the slimeball Littlefinger.
As for Jon and Val, while there is a princess-in-the-tower trope due to Val being viewed as a beautiful “princess” (the wildlings do not consider Val a princess, only Mance’s sister-in-law, as they do not recognize blood royalty) and Stannis holding her in a tower as his captive, it’s not how Jon views her. The scene you’re referencing happens after Val is the only one able to successfully find Tormund when she’s offering to help Jon further. At this, Jon thinks to himself that since Stannis’s and Selsye’s men view Val as a princess, Val would be a warrior princess, rather than a princess who needs rescue.
Yeah, I agree! It seems Brienne wanted to fit the role of a lady, or at least wanted to be approved of in that way, but was mocked instead so she found something that suited her talents and traits (…. and was mocked for that too but Brienne excelled in this area). And she had true admiration for Catelyn. Meanwhile, Arya had a “wildness” in her, something Ned recognizes is similar to Lyanna, but like you said, finds enjoyment in things that don’t fall under traditional ladylike norms. Arya’s never really seemed interested in being a lady but it seems like she feels it sucks to be unfavorably compared to Sansa all the time.
Efi,
Typo!
* “The scene youāre referencing happens after Val is the only one able to successfully find Tormund and when sheās offering to help Jon further.” (ie. I meant to say that the referenced scene happened when Val returns from finding Tormund. Jon and Val are talking and Jon is grateful for Val’s help with Tormund, whereupon Val offers to help more).
I realized, without the ‘and’, my phrasing could come off as even more convoluted :/
kevin1989,
Efi,
Yup!!! She’s like a treasure trove of terrible character traits! XD
Adrianacandle,
I would love a Sandor POV. If he lives in the books he should have a POV. A bit like Reek first POV only at the end you know it’s him. And call the chapter The Broken Man.
Efi,
But the still question is, is this nature or nurture. Is she born with it, or did she become it, because in the most important life-fase where such personalities bloom, she had a father who only show his children love when they got things done, was proud of Jaime because Jaime was the perfect son who could fight etc. Woman are only for marrying off, Tyrion’s hate that Cersei has for him could also come from how Tywin treated Tyrion. We also know that Tywin blamed him for his wifes dead from the start. She lost her mother at a young age, the only woman that showed her children kindness and love.
So I think Cersei was born with the probabilities to become the woman she became, I still think Tywin influence brought her there. And I wonder what would have happen with Cersei if she would have grown up with parents like Ned, who let his children be free to be who they want, don’t force them into marriage they don’t want etc. Who showed her what real love is. I think she would have been different then. At least when it comes to the loving others part.
It’s also a theme of GRRM. Nurture vs nature. That’s also the question with the Targaryen madness that will come into play. Is it their nature that drove them insane, or is it their life style.
I think Theon is also a good example of it. In the end he is a man of family, who want to do the right thing but failed. But what would have happened if he didn’t grow up under Ned. He probably would have become a raping Iron Islander.
ThisGirlHasNoName,
I don’t understand it, why not give you a cute dress like the present and future, but with old-mode clothes. That are things that teachers should know how children think. I can understand why it affected you.
I think D&D didn’t have the balls to tell Rory that they changed his character from the books.
Tron79,
Or name it “The Broken Chicken man”
Did you already read, the Lost lord? If you already answered that above, just ignore it. I want to debate something with you about a theory.
Jenny,
I think Cersei only loved Joffrey somehow in the books. And I wonder if the theory
is true, she has so much in common with
Efi,
I had forgotten, she did sing a song for Sandor in ACOK Sansa VII when he put the dagger to her throat and before that, she does wonder why he’s drunk in her room, on her bed before he reveals he’s going to flee. Sorry about that! Totally blanked! But there still wasn’t anything sexual or intimate between them that I can recall?
And you might be referring to this passage too?
Again, it seems like Sandor is trying to rile Arya up so she kills him. It doesn’t seem he’s talking about Sansa this way for any sexual purposes, it’s to get Arya to finish him off and of course, Arya refuses. Especially after he reminds her of Mycah and doesn’t even remember his name right.
Me too. We have all these POVs assessing and narrating his actions, words, and expressions but I’ve love to know what’s going on inside his head.
kevin1989,
I don’t know how I feel about it tbh, Tywin always suspected Tyrion, but it would be funny if
I think its something that we will never find out, like fAegon’s true origin, unless he pops on a dragon.
Adrianacandle,
Sansa: āI would be gladder if it were the Hound, Sansa thought. Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her.ā
āāāā
And there we have the character of the Hound in a nutshell.
Ten Bears,
Right!
However, there is this moment in the books (in the chapter I had blanked on), when he’s drunk, and he does get pretty close to harming Sansa. I don’t know what he would have done if she didn’t sing for him:
But when Sansa recalls that moment (the last paragraph) afterward, she invents a kiss (known as the unkiss), even though it’s not here in this passage and Sandor never mentions a kiss as having happened either. There are a lot of theories about the unkiss, what it might mean, and why Sansa is misremembering.
I interpreted that moment as one of closeness as I, personally, didn’t see anything sexual in it, especially since Sansa’s still a fairly naive 12-year old here but this is one of the things people have interpreted in a variety of ways and something that SanSan shippers have run with.
But I just noticed, what does “wetness” mean?? š
Ten Bears,
Efi,
Since Sansa is cupping Sandor’s face here, the wetness must be tears, right?
Pimple pus?
Drool?
Runny nose?
Adrianacandle,
In the books: āStill, Arya is hurt that Sansa excels at all the traditionally ladylike boxes (beautiful, good at ladylike pursuits, met with praise) while the only things Arya is better at than Sansa are things like riding a horse, archery ā activities that arenāt approved for highborn ladies. She is chided for her lack of skill (and interest) in traditional feminine pursuits and her looks are mocked by Sansaās friend Jeyne Poole, who calls her āArya Horseface and [would] neigh whenever [Arya] came near.ā Catelyn seems frustrated with Aryaās refusal to comply and believes Arya needes refinement while Arya believes the only ones who ever thought she was pretty were her father and Jon.ā
______
Funny how the proverbial ugly ducking wound up as a swan on the show. (Do the comparisons of Arya to Lyanna portend a similar outcome?)
āLovely girl!ā – Jaqen S2.
āI canāt believe I thought you were a boy. Youāre pretty! – Hot Pie S7e2.
āAll I know is that youāre beautiful and I love you.ā – Gendry S8e4
Meanwhile, whatād Lyanna Mormont say about Sansa in S6e7? Something like āAs far as I know Lady Sansa is a Bolton. Or is she a Lannister? Iāve heard conflicting reports.ā
…Which would make her younger sister Arya the incumbent trueborn Stark princess.
With the disclaimer that Iām aware this is subjective and I am biased: By S8 Arya was no longer the androgynous girl who could pass for a boy. Her looks could no longer be mocked and it was not just her father and Jon who thought she was pretty. By the final season Arya had arguably become more attractive than her so-called āpretty sister.ā
Notwithstanding Sansaās hurried coronation in the concluding montage of the final episode, which didnāt allow for nuance, might there have been a contingent of Northerners for whom Aryaās ālack of skill (and interest) in traditional feminine pursuitsā made her more, and not less, palatable as a leader? Without minimizing the importance of organizing grain stores, surely there had to be positive buzz after Arya Stark saved everyone in the North from being transformed into NK wall decorations or undead zombies.
Iād suggest there would be a groundswell of support for the…
Younger, More Beautiful Queen šøš»š”
(Yeah, I know, sheād probably pull a Jon and protest āI donāt want it!ā and threaten āDo NOT call me āYour Graceā or Iāll cut your throat.ā)
Adrianacandle,
From the scene in the show in S4e10, it seemed clear to me that the gravely injured Sandor was saying those nasty things to try to goad Arya into killing him, after asking nicely didnāt work. Finally, after he couldnāt piss her off, he pleaded: āDo I have to beg you?ā
I interpreted the book passage the same way.
Adrianacandle,
Quoted passage = āSome instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood. āLittle bird,ā he said once more, his voice raw and harsh as steel on stone. Then he rose from the bed. Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps.ā
But I just noticed, what does āwetnessā mean?? šā
_______
A: Tears.
Adrianacandle,
In that quoted passage, what was Sansa hearing when she āheard cloth rippingā?
I LITERALLY interpreted it the same way!
Ten Bears,
Yes! As time goes on, Arya is getting prettier and I think she is growing to look quite a bit like Lyanna, who is said to have been quite beautiful. I’ve also seen a few discussions on who is prettier — Sansa or Arya — but I think each have a different kind of beauty. I’d imagine Sansa is more “classically” beautiful while Arya might be more striking.
Ned to Arya:
Kindly Man to Arya:
Bran confusing Lyanna for Arya in his first greenseeing visions to the past of Lyanna and Benjen:
But her beauty might be hidden under her lack of care for her appearance:
kevin1989,
You wrote at 5:17 am… āAs for Dorne and Iron Island storyline, I think I found the importance. And if that came true in winds I think those storylines have a huge pay-off, and Iām hope you will like those stories better then. I tell that in another post when I get back from work. Got to go.ā
_____
Alright Kevin, donāt leave me in suspense! š
Whatās the importance of the Dorne and Iron Islands storylines you discovered? What are the āhuge payoffsā going to be (in TWOW)?
For me, the Dorne and Iron Islands story lines amounted to unnecessary and unfulfilling detours.
(I did kind of like Tyene and her flirtation with Bronn… but that didnāt go anywhere. He shouldāve tried to rescue her from Cerseiās dungeon. Seems like Bronn forgot about her, just like the showrunners decided to euthanize Doran Martell and pull the plug on the whole Dorne subplot.)
That’s an interesting thing to consider and it reminded me that Arya still has some applicable skills she excels at over Sansa:
That’s what I thought too! I was worried that I may have been reading it wrong.
As for ripping cloth, I had assumed he was bandaging his injuries? Would that be right? He leaves right after so I’m not sure what other purposes he’d rip cloth for but it might be an off-day for me. (No, it already is. I’ve already forgotten that the hour of 11:00 comes right after 10:00 and there isn’t another hour in-between, meaning there aren’t actually three hours between 9:00 and 11:00. So much like Sansa, I don’t have a head for figures š We only had Art Math at Art School…. the subjective kind of math…. Where 1+1=2 is only an interpretation ;D )
Yes, like you and Mr Derp, this was my interpretation of the book passages too.
Adrianacandle,
“Or I could be wrong on all this”
No, you’re absolutely right on every little detail, haha!
Only to add that that Cersei believes it’s a huge injustice that she doesn’t have the power because she is a woman while all along she is Tywin’s first-born child. Jamie was the second twin to come into the world, holding her foot.
I wonder if at some point it will be revealed in the books that the only reason Cersei wanted Jamie was for destroying her father’s dream of making Jamie lord. Jamie refuses to quit the kings guard for becoming lord of Casterly Rock because only this way he’ll be close to Cersei. (god, he’s so naive!)
Adrianacandle,
Not fanboying here: Especially after looking at those old photographs of Maisie Williams on grrm.livejournal from 2009 and 2010, Iāve noticed how completely different she can look just with a different hairstyle. In recent years, just by changing hairstyles and makeup, she can look like a different person.
It might have been interesting to take advantage of her chameleon-like qualities to demonstrate the Book! Catelynās quote that you cited:
Her mother used to say she could be pretty if she would just wash and brush her hair and take more care with her dress, the way her sister did. To her sister and sisterās friends and all the rest, she had just been Arya Horseface.
Then again, the fandom wouldāve probably revolted if the show had done a Hollywood teen flick-type makeover scene (e.g., with glammed up Arya in a dress sashaying down a staircase).
The ASOIAF Princess Diaries!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUjlBP5gUrQ
I always felt that quote from Catelyn is such a mother thing to say. She means well but it’s like a typical mum-criticism/compliment balled into one. She’s right! And I think Maisie was the perfect person to play Arya! But to hear stuff like that is never fun XD;
Ten Bears,
I’ll have you know that ‘She’s all that’ was a cinematic masterpiece. She took her glasses off and everything.
Adrianacandle,
āAs for ripping cloth, I had assumed he was bandaging his injuries? Would that be right? He leaves right after so Iām not sure what other purposes heād rip cloth for but it might be an off-day for me….ā
______
From the passage you quoted, I canāt figure out what the sound of āripping clothā could signify. Did Sandor come into Sansaās room with open wounds from the battle that needed bandaging?
That book scene takes place in the dark, right? (āThe room was too dark for her to see himā)
I have no clue. Since he canāt be seen, my first guess would be that he was tearing off a piece of his clothing to wipe the tears from his cheek. (Iād hate to think he was shredding her sheets or bedspread.)
You know, I think she actually does love Jaime — but not in the pure selfless love way, but as an extension of herself, her twin, her mirror, they came into the world together. The totally narcissistic way!
I do think you’re right that “Cersei believes itās a huge injustice that she doesnāt have the power because she is a woman while all along she is Tywinās first-born child. Jamie was the second twin to come into the world, holding her foot.” I think Cersei totally resents Jaime because of this (being Tywin’s heir and male, two things she wants) but I do think there’s love there.
F*ck yes!
I donāt care if itās corny or manipulative, those kind of makeover scenes work on me every time.
(As I recall, Rachel Leigh Cookās descending the stairway scene in āSheās All Thatā was spoofed in āAnother Teen Movieā two years later. )
kevin1989,
“Itās also a theme of GRRM. Nurture vs nature. Thatās also the question with the Targaryen madness that will come into play. Is it their nature that drove them insane, or is it their life style.”
That’s exactly what I mean, yes. Nature vs nurture. But I’m not sure that Martin speaks for “nature”, I don’t think that he believes that nature defines who people are when they grow up. Tywin was a cruel man; this is why his son kills him in the end, and the other son sheds no tear as he stands guard over his dead body. Tywin only had roles to give to his children (social, political) and absolutely no love. So I guess they cling to each other in the books, Cersei and Jamie are together and Tyrion clings to Jamie to find some normality.
The Targaryens were not inherently mad, I think. Incest of course means health problems for the offspring, and their children died early, those that survived married each other to bear more children like that. Their problem was the incest, which they believed was their prerogative. Their “exceptionalism doctrine” led to their social isolation from the rest of the Westerosi nobility, which is a fatal mistake if you’re the supreme ruler. They meant to rule like the gods of the Olymp (read: Valyria), not like normal kings and queens supported by the aristocracy and the people of their country.
[this is partly why I think Dany’s burning of KL will be a political move, not because she simply “goes mad” like the show showed us; they tried to give a political context to it, but it was very superficial, and it failed]
Jenny,
Re: Makeovers
See also…
Anne Hathaway in āThe Princess Diariesā
Michelle Trachtenberg in āIce Princessā
Mandy Moore in āA Walk to Rememberā
Maybe it is that! I know he had just been in battle (the Battle of Blackwater) and he is wounded but when he is commanded to hold the river, there is wildfire there and he refuses, having lost quite a few men already:
Adrianacandle,
Ackkk! I didnāt see you had already mentioned āThe Princess Diariesā fifteen minutes before I did.
My Fair Lady! The Ball! From street flower girl to convincing princess!
Adrianacandle,
Lol. Pimple!
He’s just been in a battle. He’s bloody and sweaty and perhaps he’s crying too but not from regret.
But he’s pushed her on the bed and the whole scene happens on her bed.
This is not to say that he intends to rape her, just that it’s terrifying for a 12 y-o girl.
And no, I meant the first passage, not the second, where Sandor deliberately makes the whole thing too vile to induce Arya to kill him. But perhaps my reading was extreme.
Ten Bears,
He tore of his cloak and left it on the floor.
His cloak is the kings guard cloak; white, but now it’s dirty and bloody from the battle (a bit burned too?) I don’t remember. It’s a symbol of everything Sandor hates. Sansa takes it later and covers herself with it, and afterwards she keeps it in her chest underneath her silks.
Efi,
Yes, she definitely terrified that he was going to kill her.
But I didn’t read anything sexual from this Arya-Sandor passage where he talks about Sansa? I read a lot of irritation and an attempt to goad Arya after Arya brings up Gregor and Sandor figures out there are issues between Arya and her sister but not sexual yearning or anything like that:
I know he removed his cloak and left it on Sansa’s floor — if the cloak requires tearing at something to remove it in a hurry, that would make the most sense for the sound of cloth ripping, considering Sansa finds it soon after. How are these cloaks attached? I don’t know how they’re actually attached D:
Thinking about it, they would have to be securely fastened so a tearing sound would make sense if you’re not willing to fiddle with the fastenings…
Cloth ripping = cloak removal, then? Mystery solved? š
It’s been a super off day for me….
Efi,
I think the problem is that in the first 4 seasons the show was a politics show with character-building. That had 2 battle-sequences in it because they were needed. After that it become the other way around. the seasons were build around that battle sequence, and the action become the first priority and the politics and character building were second. I think that change was a huge problem, and I think that change was also the reason why GRRM didn’t work anymore on the show. I mean the whole “I’m working on winds” excuse doesn’t work, he is heavily working on the prequels. So I really think GRRM and D&D had a big disagreement about where the story was headed, that he just backed out completely, he gave them some things to work with and that’s it.
And the Q-ratings is also a huge problem of season 5 and on-worth.
Dame of Mercia,
I’m sorry for your loss. I hope he had a wonderful life. How old did he became? or was it a girl? Name?
And about Jon=Rheagar+Lyanna. What I think will happen in winds that is of course the same as in the show, we will find out that Rheagar and Lyanna had a son that Ned takes but I think there will be one difference. The story is already heavily with baby swaps. I think the difference is that Ned really did cheat on Cat in the books. And he really got a child with Ashara Dayne. We know that after the tower of Joy Ned went to the Daynes (Can’t remember their home-name). I think Ned switched the baby’s. One to keep the son of Lyanna safe. And second, because Ned wants to raise his own child instead of the child of his sister, and he knew his nephew would be safe with Ashara. And I think Darkstar is really the son of Rheagar and Lyanna.
And I still wonder if
The second reason why I think this will happen is that GRRM told he has a big plottwist in winds a couple of months ago. That won’t probably be something small, but I think with the main-storyline, So Jon.
The third reason is, GRRM is against monarchy. I think what he will do is show us Jon and
not having a true claim to the throne but being good kings. And having Daenerys with her claim, turn mad. To show that monarch is not a good way.
Adrianacandle,
Yup. Though Iām a pre-books fan, it does seem likely that Sandor ripping off his KG cloak was the tearing sound Sansa heard.
From the quoted passages. Iām left to wonder why Sansa keeping that cloak as if it were a cherished artifact didnāt have some deeper meaning – one which the show didnāt delve into. In fact, I donāt recall Sansa ever mentioning Sandor once after the Battle of the Blackwater in S2. Whatever subtexts there may have been in the books (prompting the āSanSanā speculation?), any implied emotional connection between Sansa and Sandor in the books, e.g., the āunkissā was omitted from the show.
As I recall, the only mentions of Sandor & Sansa from the time of their parting until the wonky abbreviated āreunionā in S8e4, were Sandor telling a disbelieving Arya how heād saved Sansa from gang rape during the KL riot (a fairly faithful adaptation of the dialogue from the books quoted above) in S3e9 (?); Sandor trying to goad Arya into killing him in S4e10*; and a brief mention in early S7 during a LF-Sansa conversation while watching Brienne, in which one of them commented that Brienne had defeated the Hound in single combat. (I found it a bit odd that Sansa expressed no emotion at the mention of Sandorās fate, just as I found it conspicuously strange that in S6e2 Brienne related to Sansa that sheād seen Arya with āa manā instead of naming Sandor Clegane…)
Again, I can only guess that the showrunners chose to focus on the Sandor & Arya relationship to the exclusion of Sandor & Sansa – as well as Jon & Arya. (I suppose one could also argue that the significant time devoted to the show-only Jon & Sansa story line from S6 through S7 came at the expense of a meaningful Jon & Arya story line in S8.)
* When he brought up āyour sister, your pretty sisterā and said āI should have f*cked her bloody; at least Iād have one happy memoryā, I found it awful – yet sad – at the same time. Kind of tragic to realize he was facing the end of his life without a single happy memory to show for it. š¢
Jenny,
Maybe we don’t even get the answer, but GRRM asks us a question instead. Does it matter who has the bigger claim, when the king you have, protect his people, give prosper to his people and all that a king should be. We are now so much, and the show is prove of it, how we reacted when Jon didn’t get the throne, on who is the true heir, instead of asking if that should matter. And in the end no matter if he is true or not, I think we will feel sorry for him if he dies by Dany’s hand. We don’t think, she is the true heir, he should die. We think, what gives her the right to feel acclaimed to be queen, when he was good for the people.
Dame of Mercia,
So sorry to hear about your kitty. Iām still mourning my lovebird four months after she went to Rainbow Bridge. (If youāre not familiar with the āRainbow Bridgeā poem I can find it and post it.)
Shame. *bells* Shame. *Bells* Shame. *Bells*
From now on. Using the word Literally wrong, will be sentence to a walk of shame. Who is with me?
Ten Bears,
Well Dorne is much different in the books. So is Tyene, and the sand-snakes. You can’t compare book and show storyline of Dorne.
To begin what I think should be know to understand why I think Dance and Feast are not fillers is that the story is not Jon and Dany. Look at most storylines from even the first 3 books, how everything starts, who hold the progression of those storylines. You can go back to 2 characters. One is Littlefinger, who is busy with creating chaos. But he has all the strings attached to that chaos. My guess is he doesn’t wants to be king. He wants to be destroy the monarchy in the way it is presented right now. Littlefinger worked himself to the top, he is the richest man in Westeros. But still he is a nobody when it comes to titles. And yes he has titles, but empty titles. What he does is destroying every house that is Warden in a kingdom. I think Littlefinger is trying to bring some kind of Capitalism to Westeros, not being king.
As for Varys is the opposite, Varys wants order. To put the right king on the throne, that he controls. That executes the rules Varys wants in the country. A bit like Karl Marx. For the good of the realm/people. Peace over freedom.
Both of these 2 has their strings. And if you count those strings, almost every storyline in the books is connected to it. Now my next post for fear of wotw purgetory, I put my connection.
kevin1989,
I couldn’t agree more. At first I didn’t believe it, but then the story and especially season 8 was all about Q-ratings. I wouldn’t mind some Bronn here and there, but having him at the council was… just ugh! They totally invested on Dany, Tyrion, Bronn and Sandor. It’s as if they didn’t try at all. Minimum effort for the conclusion of such a big story.
Anyway, I was really hoping that we’ll see the books. But Martin’s last interview ruined that hope too. Perhaps we’ll see WoW, but I doubt we’ll see ADoS. And I just don’t get it, to tell you the truth. Normally if there’s a story in your head and you’re so creative, you have this huge urge to get it out there. He knows exactly where the story’s going, because he planted the foreshadow so carefully from book 1. So why not just write it and get it over with? Or perhaps that’s the answer, that he knows every little detail now, he’s made it out in his head, so there’s no need to put it in writing. As if this urge blew out somehow.
kevin1989,
Hey Kevin…
Just wanted to tell you it was awfully nice of you to ask Dame of Mercia about the life of her pet.
kevin1989,
āShame. *bells* Shame. *Bells* Shame. *Bells*
From now on. Using the word āliterallyā wrong, will be sentence to a walk of shame. Who is with me?ā
_____
Iām with you 100%!
Can we add the use of ābittersweetā for any reason as a violation punishable by a Walk of Shame?
kevin1989,
First Griff/
is already tied to Varys.
Now we had Dorne. Which had a plottwist at the end of Feast. Somebody betrayed Arianne, but who is the big question. There are many ideas, but most of them suggest somebody that the character of Arianne or the readers won’t care for, and is not tied in to the bigger picture, so why put it in. No it has to be something huge, that will crush Arianne and also is connected to Varys. The one that betrayed Arianne is
kevin1989,
Now the tie with Iron Island is more simple.
I think later today or tomorrow I post some theories I like.
Efi,
Agree. Aegon is a perfect example of it that’s why I believe he is the real deal somehow. To show that Nurture is more important. But what I meant was and I think GRRM sees that too. Nature is still a small part. Some things you are born with. But the nurture can push that to different places. Somebody who is very emotional can be pushed into a unstable person who destroys everything, relationship work etc. But can also be nurtured into somebody creative. Same with Cersei. I think she inherit the Targ genes. But Tywin push those genes into a place that Cersei became Cersei. And I wonder what Ned would have done with such genes. I think if Cersei had Ned as her father she would have become something different. Love is important.
Agree about your view of the Targs. Their lifestyle. Because I wonder if Arys with his genes would just be a commoner if he would maybe bloomed more into the caring person he was before.
About Dany I think her burning KL has connections with Euron. With his freaky shit he is pulling with his magic. I think he will push Dany insane somehow with his prohecy’s and warnings. Yes I think Euron is behind those paranoia visions she gets.
Efi,
About GRRM (not) writing the books:
ā…And I just donāt get it, to tell you the truth. Normally if thereās a story in your head and youāre so creative, you have this huge urge to get it out there. He knows exactly where the storyās going, because he planted the foreshadow so carefully from book 1. So why not just write it and get it over with?ā
āāāā-
You pinpointed the reason. When he had the story in his head, he had the creative urge to āget it out thereā – almost as if the story flowed from his brain to the page on its own.
From his interview, I get the distinct impression that the voices of his characters used to populate his head, and he once had an abiding love for them. But heās lost that feeling and canāt bring it back.
And on that note, I offer this dedication to GRRM: āYouāve Lost That Lovinā Feelingā by The Righteous Brothers.
š¶Youāve lost that lovin’ feelin’,
Whoa, that lovin’ feelin’,
Youāve lost that lovin’ feelin’,
Now it’s gone, gone, gone….šµ
Efi,
Agree, strange after season 8 aired I was happy with the season. I still think that’s where the books also need to go, but different route. And now I’m busy with my project, and I read winds chapters that already are out. And I remember how the show handled those stories with action instead of drama, somehow my excitement for season 5 till 8 dropped a lot. The intelligent way the books told it (like season 1 till 4 told those stories, I didn’t mind those huge changed from season 4 because the essence of those books were there), to a story that it’s main goal was action. It became mainstream. Everything needs to be bigger instead of better. Did we dislike season 3 less than 2 because season 3 didn’t contain a huge battle sequence? And it’s a shame because making the story move faster, resulted also in a short battle sequence in Meereen which only was Dragonaction. Instead of what is happening in the books. They could have had the action in 3 episodes. 2 of 10 minutes. And one big final episode only about the battle of Meereen.
now I rate the seasons: 4 > 1 > 6 (still high because this one focused on the characters not the plot) > 3 > 2 > 7 > 8 > 5.
Ten Bears,
I first needed to look up, didn’t know what awfully nice meant I though, awful and nice strange combo.
But I know how it feels to lose a pet, it’s horrible. For me they’re part of the family. When my dog died it took months before I could even pass by a bit. Still missing something in the house.
And I’m a animal person. I love pet-stories. And the love people have for them.
Ten Bears,
Not really, that is coming off lightly, use of that word, is punishable by getting send to the wall, only real time you can use that word is when you’re talking about Bitter Lemon “That drink I had yesterday was bittersweet”. Any other use right to the wall. And for all the woman, that means dealing with Tormunds flirting. So be on you’re best behavior.
Efi,
so dany amd tyrion arent really important characters? fail possibly?
Ten Bears,
Still for me that’s not a real excuse.
Fist I want to say that I still love GRRM for putting these books on the shelf for me to dive into, to cherish these characters. So it’s not meant as an insult but more a view of me.
Martin’s line of work is pretty privileged in my opinion. I’m not saying writing books is easy, and not stressful and that you don’t have problems with it. But in the end it’s a more privileged profession compared to what many people on this earth do. We all have to work (if you’re healthy), how many plumbers, house builders, nurses etc work at 60+ with health problems and back pains and still need to perform every single day for a little wage. And they don’t have the excuse that they don’t feel enthusiasm etc. They need to work for their food on the table, and their house. Some even work years without not wanting to work. GRRM has the privileged to not worry about it. His worry is finishing 2 books where he already have written 5 off. In which he earn enough of it, because of his fans paying for it, so for me that’s not much to ask for when compare to many professions.
And I see it also as a project he started which he sold, but a project that isn’t finished. And then he goes to other project without finishing his first project (which is a also a huge problem for his concentration on the books, so I don’t understand his reasoning to start these projects with HBO). I mean if for instance a plumber has a project with somebody, and he doesn’t finish the first house completely and halfway through he goes to the next, he doesn’t get payed till he does. And for me that’s the same with GRRM. His first project is his SoIaF books and for me I don’t see every book as a single project because it’s a saga, I see all 7 as one big project. Everything next too it are his second and third and fourth etc project.
Reek,
That’s not what he or she said. And if you look into what Q-ratings mean you understand what he or she meant.
Simply put. If a certain actor/Character is put more on screen and given more money to the company, in this Case HBO. The story needs to be altered to give that actor/Character more screen-time.
And that’s also happen with GoT a lot. The dragon score high Q-Ratings. The dire wolves not. So dragons are extended and the Direwolves put to a minimum.
Look at it this way. What if with Harry Potter the Q-ratings were heavily in favor of Ron instead of Hermione . And they decide to minimize Hermione and maximize Ron. So they were forced to changed the story of 7.1 That Hermione walked away instead of Ron. Which wouldn’t make sense but it would helped the Q-rating.
Q-ratings is very bad when it is use in TV-shows. It downgrade the artistic freedom, and more rules are added by the company that they need to implement. For instance in the past they always needed to have a funny sidekick to the boring main character, because that scored. Or the very macho-man who happens to be the main character, always got with the most beautiful woman. It are tropes that are used to maximize income, not perse maximize quality. In the past HBO was against Q-ratings. Now they use it. (But was expected when AT&T bough HBO, this was already feared then)
kevin1989,
so who should they have focused on in season 8 then? just curious
The one that the story was about. son(g) of Ice and Fire, Jon snow?
But the Q-rating is a problem that already begin in season 5. Some storylines were move to the side, others got more screentime because of it. And as I stated this problem with Q-ratings is not D&D fault. It’s HBO itself who control the process too much.
Arya. Arya. Arya & Sandor. (Done) Arya & Jon. Arya & Beric. Arya & Hot Pie. Arya & Nymeria. Ghost & Nymeria. Jon & Ghost. Arya & Nymeria & wolf pack. Kinvara. Sandor & Sansa. Needle & Arya. More direwolves and less – I mean fewer -dragons.
And most important: Ditch that cackling clown Euron. Good actor in a wasted role and wasted screen time.
That sounds nice.
It’s such a shame what they did on screen with Euron. From the most terrifying character in the books (and one of the smartest one, to execute his plan you need to be smart), to what we got on screen. I can understand Pilou to be a bit disappointed and wanting his book counterpart story. Same as Alexander Siddig, DeObia Oparei and Ian McElhinney. I remember Ian being annoyed that they cut him and not given his book counterpart. He was not happy. Alexander Siddiq was less amused that they ditched the book counterpart of his story (which D&D promised him) and he got what he got. They even lied to him before he got the job. they offered him season 5 and 4 episodes in season 6. And then they changed his story line and told the lie that the first plan was to kill him off in season 5, which doesn’t make sense if you give a man already a contract of 2 seasons. It’s a shame Doran could have been that amazing character from the books.
Ten Bears,
I think this is for the same reason we don’t get the same development with the Arya & Jon relationship in the show as we do in the books, in which Jon and Arya are each other’s most cherished sibling and out of all their family, they miss each other the most: because with the show happening on screen, we have no access to these characters’ thoughts as these characters don’t voice these thoughts out loud. And that’s where much of this takes place.
With Sansa’s thoughts on Sandor, they’re likewise internal, she doesn’t speak them out loud. She has memories of her family but doesn’t speak these aloud either. So, in this translation, I feel we lose some of this depth with our POV characters. Plus, there’s also the matter of Sansa’s faulty and unreliable memory when she recalls certain events (ie. the unkiss) and there’s speculation on why that is.
There are things shown on the series that happen with Sansa and Sandor (Sandor saving Sansa from the mob, offering to take her with him when he leaves King’s Landing the night of the Battle of Blackwater) but I think it’s more to show Sansa being disabused of her former fairy-tale notions (the one who saves her isn’t a handsome knight. Instead, it’s Sandor Clegane and he is the only one who comes to her rescue) rather than whatever is going on with Sansa’s psyche and her unreliable memory after Sandor leaves. And I suspect Sansa’s thoughts on Sandor and why she keeps the cloak are things she’s doing out of trauma — in an effort to find comfort (the cloak) or to maybe build a narrative she can find meaningful.
But I’m not sure! I’m no theory-crafter or psychologist!
As to why Sansa keeps the cloak, this is speculated about but per the books, Sansa doesn’t know why she keeps it:
Ten Bears,
Finally got to these, thanks for those links! Now I need to catch up, i missed three whole days! Oh btw, Boney M is that group that did the Christmas reggae song ‘Mary’s Boy Child’.
BTW who put together Boiled Leather? That was a work of genius (or someone who knew the story very well and could figure out the order of the chapters!)
Ten Bears,
Had Jon been reunited with Arya in season 6 and Arya was in the picture during the retaking-Winterfell storyline and the writers chose to devote more time to Jon and Sansa’s relationship over Jon & Arya’s, I’d agree. However, Jon and Arya’s reunion happened much later, in season 8, when character relationships and development were very limited and often shortchanged across the board — Jon/Arya, Jon/Sansa, Jon/Ghost, Jon/Sam, Arya/Sansa, Arya/Sansa/Jon/Bran, Jon/Dany, Dany/Missandei, Arya/Beric, Sandor/Sansa, Arya/MIA Nymeria, anything Cersei related as she spent most of season 8 at her balcony drinking wine, etc. (I think Arya and Sandor’s relationship is probably the only one I’m content with and I like the conclusion to Theon’s arc). To me, Season 8 felt like a grocery list of items to check off so they could reach the end while season 6, the last 10-episode season, felt like the last season before the rush started setting in.
Season 6’s pace was quickened but there was still time for some character work. Even Arya was afforded that relationship she developed with Lady Crane during season 6. Yara and Theon had time to develop their relationship while Jon and Sansa had time to develop theirs in respective joint storylines (Yara and Theon working out how to escape Euron together and take back their home; Sansa and Jon working on trying to take back their home and butting heads over how to do so — and how to run the North). And this seems, unfortunately, like a startling contrast to season 8 :/
Yeah. I think the Hound is a very troubled, but tragic character. I found it awful that he was that desperate to get Arya to kill him because, as Arya rightly identified, it’d be a mercy. And I think it really would have been. Sandor’s life seems comprised of pain.
Tron79,
I agree about the direwolves; their relationships were a huge part of the story, as well as the warging. They should have kept more of that in. I agree about Robb POV, but the reader knows about him via Theon and Catelyn so by the time we get to know him we can sort of picture him.
Ten Bears,
Was she born evil ā or was she raised to be that way?
Ive always believed that each person is born with DNA that presents certain tendencies. They have a range, and can be influenced by the environment they are raised in. Certainly Tywin did a lot of damage, but also the way the society constrained her didn’t help
Ten Bears,
Although Iām a latecomer to GoT and havenāt read the books yet, I find it fascinating to read contemporaneous accounts from GRRM in 2009 about how āwe found our Arya,ā and book readersā positive responses to the photos of then-unknown Maisie Williams posted by G in April, 2010, way before the first episode aired.
OMG all of us in our online book group want crazy! We hung on every word every post every development. I think that was why it was such an international hit; the book already had fans from all over the world, so eager for it to come to life
Ten Bears,
I guess Book! Cersei was different?
YES huge! she was really paranoid and became batshit crazy, and really not very smart. Show Cersei is evil, but is smart, and cunning. Regardless her walk of shame in both book and show versions had me feeling lots of sympathy for her that I didn’t hvae before
ThisGirlHasNoName,
Wait – its the ghost of the future thats supposed to be a crone. Someone got their ghosts big time messed up! (sorry that happened to you!)
kevin1989,
To show that Nurture is more important. But what I meant was and I think GRRM sees that too. Nature is still a small part. Some things you are born with. But can also be nurtured into somebody creative
I teach kids with special needs, and see this all of the time! Im told that this child has this disability, and I see how having high expectations does a lot of good.Thats why I don’t like labels – knowing that someone is autistic or mentally impaired or deaf does not tell me what the child needs. But it can influence other to react differently to them
Adrianacandle,
Trying to reply to your 8:46 pm comment about access to charactersā unspoken, inner thoughts in the books vs. the show… but the Lord of Light is sending my reply to the ether. I wish I knew why.
If heās so all powerful why doesnāt he tell me what the f*ck he wants?
What brand of candle do you use for your Lord of Light worship candles when posting? If it’s a less expensive brand, he may prefer the ultra expensive, non-discounted Bed, Bath & Beyond ones. This is only a theory but I suspect the Lord of Light will know if we bought something on sale or if something’s from Walmart.
Now, if they are Bed, Bath, & Beyond or another expensive brand like Yankee Candles and he’s still giving you problems (I expect my own turn with this is coming up), I think you have some tough choices (sacrifices) to make… š
But in all seriousness, I wish we have the forum as an option but I’m still awaiting my activation there š But I think we’d have fewer problems posting.
Efi,
What are your thoughts on why Sansa keeps the cloak and why she invents the unkiss? I know you’ve mentioned trauma in relation to this (I think it is from trauma and even though Sansa doesn’t know why she kept the cloak, I wonder if it’s an attempt to find comfort and with the unkiss, she may be attempting to develop a personally meaningful narrative?).
I found this thread from 2011 which involves speculation over these topics if you want to peruse š
Adrianacandle,
Iām going to go top of the line for my Lord of Light pre-Post Comment prayers:
Jo Malone candles.
Holy sh**t.
When two words make Caramel Pumpkin Swirl seem so inadequate.
Okay, if the Lord of Light does not grant allowance for the posting of your comments with the sacred burning of Jo Malone candles, then our Lord is evil.
kevin1989,
Barristan was not CUT though. He died early yes. But he was in the show for four seasons
Reek,
Well, Barristan is still alive in the books. I remember that the actor playing him protested to D&D even in writing (!) about how Barristan would have been a great addition to the show.
We don’t know how much he’ll survive in the books though, now that Tyrion is close. Tyrion is dangerous.
Adrianacandle,
Martin has said that the mismemory of Sansa is important. This means either that something has happened that she does not remember, or something will happen to her at the Vale or elsewhere that she will forget. When she finds her memory again I believe the things she’s forgotten will be important for the narrative and perhaps influence future events in-universe.
So Martin in reality with the unkiss sets a narrative precedent, so when it happens again, we’ll know that it’s something she does because of her trauma. It’s amazing how well thought through the stories of ASOIAF are. I wonder how much one can read to do something as complicated, detailed, deep like that. Martin is actually right; mismemory happens to people. There’s bits and pieces of my past that I don’t remember, even though I know they happened.
As for the cloak, I think that psychologically it represents her chance to be free of her captivity, which she rejected and she doesn’t regret it. I totally agree with you (disabuse –what a great word I didn’t know before, I looked it up at Glosbe, thank you, Adriana!), Sandor showed her how things are in reality and this hurts, but Sandor himself, the way he treated her, encapsulates this cruel reality from which Sansa chooses to distance herself. Even if the world is like that, Sansa maintains her kindness and compassion; by rejecting to leave with Sandor, she doesn’t just reject him, she rejects an entire way of living that preconditions cruelty and even violence and the absense of any compassion for surviving (which Arya experienced with him because she had no choice). So the cloak is a symbol of the “knightly” way of living that is anything but knightly and is a reminder of that reality.
For Sansa this entire event was very personal: he had come to her room, pushed her on the bed, held a knife to her throat and forced her to do something (sing) which she didn’t want (and she’s only 12). And later, when he leaves, she takes his cloak, covers herself up with it, and curls on the floor, not on the bed (I think I remember it correctly). At this point, even the bed means bad things for Sansa.
And yes, well, of course you know what the Jonsa fam says about the cloak and Sansa covering herself with it. Could this be a Targaryen symbolism as the cloak is white, which alludes to Snow, and is burned (fire) and stained with blood? I don’t know. Martin planted enough foreshadow very early in his books, like Jon calling his wolf Ghost which alludes to his murder at the end of the fifth (!) book, but sometimes the Jonsa fam seems to stretch things as much as they can be stretched, even if in-universe the cloaking symbolizes marriage and protection.
For me, some things are highly suspicious and betray Martin’s intentions; Sansa for example builds WF from snow at the Eyrie, so I have no doubt that Sansa and Jon will retake WF together; but I have no idea as to what the castle named Snow at the Eyrie means for example. It commands the entire passing from Stone to the Eyrie, and it is higher than Stone, leading to Sky castle. So Jon is a Snow and Sansa becomes Alayne Stone. And when Catelyn passes by that place and meets that girl who is a Baratheon bastard (if my memory doesn’t deceive me once again, Mya Stone?) she remembers that she has herself a bastard being raised at her house, and this entire description of Snow castle is in Catelyn’s chapter.
I mean… Martin is messing with our heads. I choose not to think of such crap anymore, anyway WoW shall be published soon, I hope, so some of all this blur shall be answered.
Efi,
Thanks for your thoughts, Efi!! š
I do agree that misremembering is a way some respond and cope with trauma, especially under a deep amount of stress and Sansa, at 12, is in a living nightmare with her situation — seeing her father suddenly executed right in front of her, isolated from her family, held hostage, beaten, learning about the brutal slaughter of her mother and brother, etc. etc.
I liked these speculations too, from that westeros.org thread:
Efi,
With Ghost, that is a way to read it, with the word ‘Ghost’ perhaps foretelling Jon’s death. I more read Ghost as representing Jon’s “otherness” in the Stark family — while Jon’s a part of the family, he’s a little apart too. Ghost is different from his siblings and all the direwolves seem to represent their Stark kids in a way. Ghost is found a little ways off from the other, he’s mute, and Bran notices that of all the pups, Ghost is the only one who has opened his eyes. Meanwhile, Jon is differentiated from the rest due to his illegitimacy and he is perceptive (although, he seems to lose this a bit in the fifth book because he doesn’t anticipate what his decisions will lead to and is completely blindsided by assassination).
Most importantly, I think Ghost represents Jon’s connection to the Old Gods — the bone white and red eyes of the weirwood, which is part of the magic Jon seems to be deeply but unknowingly connected to (perhaps as much as Bran). There’s this quote from Melisandre which she says to Jon after she makes an unexpected connection with Ghost:
And of the Stark kids. Jon is the most faithful to the Old Gods as the trueborn Starks follow both Catelyn’s faith (the Seven) and Ned’s fate (Old Gods) while Jon doesn’t have Catelyn’s influence and follows only Ned’s.
Re: white cloak. There was a discussion on Targaryen colours earlier this year. I think white is sometimes seen as representing Targaryens because Dany and Viserys are platinum blonde in the show to represent the Targaryen silver hair, which is often portrayed more white than grey in artwork. However, the house colours themselves are black and red while white isn’t officially representative of House Targaryen so I’m not sure how much white would figure in, especially if Jon is a trueborn Targaryen — and I think he might be. I think Rhaegar took a second wife rather than an annulment. I mean, I don’t imagine the Martells would love that either, especially if Rhaegar abandons Elia and their two kids to marry and shack up with Lyanna.
But, well, you’ve already read my objections to the idea of Jonsa… š
Still, speculation is always fun and I think that’s one of the few advantages of still having to wait for the books.
Efi,
Re: Sansa and Jon retaking Winterfell in the next book: while I loved their reunion in the show, I’m not so certain Sansa and Jon will reunite in the next book to take Winterfell together. I think Sansa may do so with the Vale forces on her own. I definitely think Winterfell is Sansa’s destiny but I don’t know what’s going to happen with Jon next. Sansa’s story went kind of off the tracks when her show storyline was merged with Jeyne Poole’s book story. If, in the books, Sansa is raped by LF or Harry the Heir, would she be able to flee to Castle Black? Would she be able to find help? It’s a long, long way from the Vale to Castle Black and the Vale is both hard to access and hard to leave.
It’s not out of the realm of possibility! But I’m not confident she and Jon will meet up in the next book or they’ll take Winterfell together. I do think Sansa and Jon will eventually meet again at Winterfell.
GRRM has so many threads going on without having developed a road map for himself (the architect vs. gardener characterization he talks about) that I don’t know if he even knows how he’ll bring it all together. And I think that’s why he’s stuck.
Oh, I see! You’re not saying white is representative of Targaryens, but of Snow. I personally think this is a bit of a stretch, I don’t think we’re going to see a marriage between Jon and Sansa, but I only know as much as anyone else and all we can do is speculate! š
Yes, Mya Stone! I find that connection interesting because Mya is Robert Baratheon’s first child and first bastard — the very child Lyanna referenced here, putting her off of Robert, and Ned recalled holding Mya as a baby:
And I found a lot of interest in Catelyn’s reaction to Mya, there’s so much in it:
Adrianacandle,
I think they’ll reunite in the books and really take WF together. I don’t know how, but I believe that at least a reason why seasons 5 and 6 were so good (for me at least, sorry Kevin!) is because they still stepped on the book and the concrete story of what happens after Jon’s murder, which most probably Martin had figured out by that time. If my conviction that he had planned from the very beginning the outline of the complete story until the end is true, then the “girl in grey” is really Sansa. The first girl has already arrived (Alys), the second is on the way (Jeyne) and the third is about to depart for Castle Black. I expect this because of basic fairytale structure, where everything happens in threes.
So, speculation:
Sansa has taken LF’s advice and treats Harry like a diva -making advances but retreating when he’s more open to her, which leaves him wanting and wondering. Harry is a dangerous person as regards women; he has a bastard already, and another one on the way, and his rich family covers up his mistakes. So he is not reliable when it comes to women and mothers would do well to keep their daughters away from him, lol. Harry is expected to either do something foolish at the tourney, which will cost either his life or his place in Robin’s guard. If he survives, he’ll turn against her and accuse her for what will happen with him, and what he does after that will be unpredictable. If he doesn’t survive, then LF’s plans will fall apart altogether, and he’ll be the one outraged with Sansa and thereby also become unpredictable with her.
Or, perhaps, if she’s lucky, she’ll react to all this mockery, LF’s lies and Harry’s dishonesty and escapes her abusers once and for all, before anything irreparable happens to her.
Alternatively, I’d like her to kill LF already at the Vale (because if he’s alive in this scenario it would be boring), reveal herself as Sansa Stark, take their army and march North. But this is more something that Daenerys would do, not Sansa. Also, it’s not very interesting narratively.
Unfortunately, Martin has said that it gets darker and worse for everybody before their luck turns, and I don’t think Sansa has reached her point zero yet, actually in this first chapter of WoW she’s in a good place. Jon has reached that point though, so we’ll expect him to start rising in WoW.
As for Ghost, I truly think it’s foreshadow. Ghosts are traditionally white, transparent beings in popular imagination. Foreshadow in this case is a Doylist explanation. But like the cloak everything in Martin’s universe can have multiple meanings and symbolisms. In-universe it appears to symbolise Jon’s connection to the old gods (this is Watsonian). Melisandre urges Jon to embrace this strength in him, but it’s not a good thing, because she means more than the old gods, she means magic. I’m really curious to see how/what will Jon be once he returns from the dead. More beastly, maybe? Having lived inside Ghost for who knows how long? The first chapter of ADWD (Sixskins) is already a foreshadow with respect to this.
As for white as a Targ color. No, it’s not. Clapton has said that she used white for Dany to show her distancing from the reality around her. She said this about Meereen, where Dany felt uncomfortable and had trouble being accepted as a ruler.
Adrianacandle,
I like the ones that talk about Little Finger with it, the cloak part. Meaning that book Sansa is a learning a lot and probably out-smart LF in the end. And I wonder when LF founds out he will reveal something about his motives. I don’t believe the “I want the throne” is the motive. He has nothing to gain from that. But topple the high class and implement a capitalism-like institute will.
His storyline was cut. Now he was just the kingsguard of Dany, compare that to his book storyline where he had an amazing part to play. Finding out who the harpy is once Dany has left. Fighting and being the leader in the battle of Fire. It’s a very interesting storyline that Ian was exciting for. How could he not? They cut it, so Tyrion could be faster in Meereen, to make Tyrion useful. If they didn’t cut that storyline, Barristan would be in till least the end of season 6. So yes, he was cut. Like Doran was cut, and Areo was cut. And I can understand that those actors were not pleased with those decisions.
Efi,
To start with why I think Tyrion is dangerous and how he will be dangerous I start by a sign of that dangerous in Dance.
Then at the end of Dance Tyrion set his second plan in motion.
Efi,
That would be a lot of girls in grey on horses š But the Vale to Castle Black still seems way too far a distance for Sansa on horse — and by herself. By the time Alys arrived, she was in bad shape and that was from within the North. Not to mention how dangerous it would be for Sansa to travel that distance alone. While she has a bastard’s name as Alayne Stone, this is still indicative of nobility as only noble-born bastards have names — plus, she’s an overtly beautiful girl, not trained in survival skills or self-defense. Even Arya needs help to suvive Westeros and Arya has more skill in this area.
I think the subversion has already started when the wool was being torn from Sansa’s eyes and she starts realizing the reality of things vs. fairy tale notions. And I think an exploration here is happening with Sansa having to learn other kinds of skills to save and safeguard herself. Physically, Sansa can’t rescue herself, she’s always needed help there — in both the books and show. But she can sharpen her mind, listen and learn, and play to the advantage of gathering information.
But I am hoping Sansa’s story goes in another way that doesn’t involve rape or assault. She’s already been through the ringer and, well, I really hate rape as a plot device :/
I don’t know how it’s going to go down but I’d like to see a Sansa in transition rather than a Sansa who is in the company of another jerk heir and must figure a way to escape to seek another’s protection. While the development between Jon and Sansa was lovely, I wasn’t a fan of the story which led up to it. I’d like to see her story go a different way, for her to gain a sense of agency in her current situation but in a realistic way that uses her strengths. I really don’t think the show did a great job of playing to those as Sansa (among other characters) made some mystifying decisions.
Oh, I think Sansa would definitely try to figure out how to take back her home once she figured out how — she was determined to do so in the show when she came to Castle Black. What would make Jon and Sansa taking back their home together different from Sansa taking it back herself with the Vale’s support?
As for Daenerys, she and Sansa have a few similarities. They both start out gentle but must adapt to their changing situations, they both suffer abuse, they’re both used as pawns, they’re both forcibly married, and they both want to go home. All Sansa seems to want now is her family and Dany laments the loss of hers. They have these idealizations of their childhood: for Sansa, she builds a snow Winterfell. For Dany, she’s looking for that house with the red door.
As for Jon, I have no idea how he’ll return but it’s my personal hope he resembles the character we know. There aren’t that many decent people to root for in this series who have genuine compassion and a drive to help others, which makes Jon a rarity alongside a handful of other character. I saw somebody once say this about the subject on the westeros.org forums, “I need a few lighthouses in this sea of sh!t,” and Jon’s been one of them so far. It would suck to lose that half-way through his story.
With Melisandre’s quote, I interpreted that as neither a good or bad power, but a power that just is, something that’s in Jon’s blood. I think it speaks to Jon’s mystical destiny rather than something necessarily bad. Melisandre is sensing a power in Jon and yes, I think it is more than the Old Gods, I think she senses whatever magic the Targaryen line possesses. Jon does have quite a bit of magic in him, he’s already a powerful warg and resists that. He’s the child of two magical bloodlines — the Starks and the Targaryens., fire and ice, and that may play a part in Jon’s resurrection but moreso, in defending the realm against the oncoming darkness several characters are preparing for.
Adrianacandle,
I think Sansa will not move to Winterfell in the books until the end. And I think it’s combined with Aegon and Dany. I think what will happen is that maybe Aegon and Dany got the romance (not Jon but Aegon), and they move to help Jon north fighting the others. I think the castle will be taken then, by Sansa and LF or Euron. And that will be the fire part. But that is in line with my other though that Aegon is the reason why Dany burn KL. But I think Sansa story will not revolve the north at least not in winds.
Also I tink that Winterfell will not be re-taken by a battle. I highly convinced that Stannis as a brilliant plan together with Manderly, to defeat the Bolton’s from within. It’s also important for Mel that Stannis is alive once she performed her burning ritual in the north that resurrect Jon. She needs to believe that it works, that means that Jon’s death will probably not know by others in the books. Not until Mel and Stannis are reunited. Why I think this is important is that I believe that once Mel understands Jon is Azor Ahai, she will burn Stannis alive because of his kings blood. That’s a ending that Stannis deserve storywise, not killed by the Frey’s. (Not even Ramsay will attack Stannis camp).
Jon will go south with Mel to retake his home, but it’s already in Stannis hands. But once Stannis is burned by Mel, I think Jon is crowned king in the north.
As for Sansa she will be concerned south, with Cersei, Aegon etc. She will probably go north once the other’s defeated Winterfell.
Yes, I agree! Sort of like how Dany did with Khal Drogo, I hope Sansa is able to figure out a way to take her situation by horns and get some control, get some power over the people who have been controlling her. Not through sex or anything, but in beginning to learn LF’s moves, anticipate his next action, and plan her own next action accordingly.
I’d like to know what LF’s ultimate end-game is too XD;
Efi,
I like your take, still I don’t think it will go that way, but I will like if it does.
I also found other theories I like which I like very much. And the first I think is true.
1. Tywin has been poisoned by Shae on the orders of Oberyn. That’s why Shae was with Tywin, and that’s why Tywin was on the shit-pot the whole day. There’s a poison the Martell’s use that dissolves your bowels.
2. Less likely but if true I like it a lot. Oberyn had a son, who is working for Dany now. Daario.
3. What did you think about who betrayed Arianne and who is septa Lemore. Another theory about Septa Lemore is
kevin1989,
I’m not quite clear on your timeline: why would Melisandre would burn Stannis?
Personally, I don’t think Jon is becoming King in the North, nor did Linda Antonsson when she reviewed 6×10 but what would the motivation be for Jon to take Winterfell?
As for Jon/Dany/fAegon, I’m pretty convinced the romance will happen between Jon and Dany. fAegon is claiming to be a trueborn Targaryen with a greater claim to the throne Dany wants, I don’t think Dany’s going to love that š And there’s a lot connecting Jon and Dany in the books, as well as that Alan Taylor quote regarding GRRM talking about the significance of Jon and Dany.
Like, it’s not a guarantee but I think it’s heading this way.
Perhaps. I still feel she’ll get to Winterfell sooner. I wonder how she’d view fAegon if she meets him?
kevin1989,
lol, I was actually thinking of you and this explanation when I was writing that!
I think you’re probably right. Or:
kevin1989,
Her name was Pebbles. She was 16 and a rescue cat – I adopted her (from Cats Protection League – a British cat charity) on 13th October 2011 so had her just under 8 years. She was tortoiseshell and white – I think in the States people say calico.
Ten Bears,
I have heard the expression Ten Bears but don’t know the poem – you can link it if you like.
Yup. I figure the Lord of Light demands great sacrifice to grant great requests. Burning a Jo Malone candle is the equivalent of burning an heir with kingās blood at the stake – except after the candle burns, it leaves a long lasting, pleasant aroma.
Speaking of the Lord of Light: It was vexing (for me) that the show ended without ever elucidating His true nature. I donāt mean the common sense question posed by Sandor (āIf your Lord is so all-powerful why doesnāt he just tell you what the f*ck he wants?ā) I get it that the Lord likes to communicate via images in flames rather than engage in tedious conversations with puny humans.
As presented on the show. there was a dichotomy between what Iāll call the BericLordofLight and the MelLordofLight.
The Beric version was benevolent, life affirming, and life-giving (e.g., bringing dead people back to life). His disciples didnāt burn people. He provided accurate, static-free surveillance video
to assist his followers – even an agnostic like Sandor Clegane. Through his adherents, He intervened to protect the living against the dead. (Beric: The Lord of Light āhas brought us together all the same. This is His moment.ā S8e2) And of course, on the show, He brought Beric back to life six times for the purpose of giving his life to protect ASNAWPTWP.
The Mel version was malevolent, deceptive, and unreliable. He tricked or deluded his priestesses into becoming rabid, pyromaniacal loonies bent on roasting people alive – whether to āpurify the soulsā of ānon-believersā or as sacrifices ādemandedā by their Lord. This version of the Lord of Light is best described by Davos when he confronted Melisandre for burning Shireen (in S6e10):
Davos: āYou burned a little girl alive!ā
Mel: āI only do what my Lord commands.ā
Davos: āIf he commands you to burn children, your Lord is evil!ā
Mel: āWe are standing here because of him. Jon Snow is alive because the Lord willed it.ā
Davos: āI loved that girl like she was my own. She was good. She was kind. And you killed her!ā
Mel: āSo did her father. So did her mother. Her own blood knew it was the only way.ā
Davos: āThe only way for what? They all died anyway. You told everyone Stannis was the one. You had him believing it, all of them fooled. And you lied.ā
Mel: āI didn’t lie. I was wrong.ā
Davos: āAye, you were wrong. How many died because you were wrong?ā
____
So, was the Lord of Light some Janus-faced deity? A schizophrenic? Or a prankster who got his jollies watching the silly humans barbecue each other, only to come to their rescue when humankind was about to be obliterated?
F*ck if I know. Did the books explain any of this?
Dame of Mercia,
Iāll post a link to the āRainbow Bridgeā poem, or cut and paste the text if I have it. I think it starts with: āJust this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge.ā It was printed on a condolence card from my veterinarianās office.
Perhaps, through the Sephora gift card bestowed on me by my most irritating of sisters, will I find a more righteous salvation for my posts from the ether in the form of Jo Malone candles, the most luxury and sacred of burning vessels. And I can stop eyeing the damn cat…
I would welcome this pleasant scent… Somebody in my building has been enjoying a fish phase.
LOL
There is quite a bit on R’hllor here but religion seems more significant in the books, as does its associated magic (particularly the Old Gods and the Lord of Light). Still mysterious but I get the impression it’s up to the interpreter. Melisandre is interpreting genuine power but there’s a chance she might be coming to the wrong conclusions. Meanwhile, Beric is obviously experiencing real power but he’s interpreting it differently from Melisandre.
Efi,
So you predict that in the books as well as the show, the once brilliant Tyrion Lannister
?
Dame of Mercia,
I’m so sorry for your loss. It’s so hard because our pets make such a big impact, sometimes they are our closest companions, but we only have them for a fraction of our lives. It’s never, never enough time with them. The Rainbow Bridge poem Ten Bears referenced is beautiful, maybe you know it? I’m so sorry.
I have a ragdoll cat and she’s been with me ever since I moved to Toronto for school, she’s often been my only companion when I had to move around so much. I know it’s going to come but it feels unimaginable. I’m so sorry. I wish I could say something more meaningful.
Dame of Mercia,
So sorry for your loss. I have two cats too. And sometimes they really work on my nerves, but what noone understands is that despite my complaining I love them more than anything in the world. All my free-time is for them and I even adapt my vacations for them.
Adrianacandle,
ā…There is quite a bit on Rāhllor here but religion seems more significant in the books, as does its associated magic (particularly the Old Gods and the Lord of Light). Still mysterious but I get the impression itās up to the interpreter. Melisandre is interpreting genuine power but thereās a chance she might be coming to the wrong conclusions. Meanwhile, Beric is obviously experiencing real power but heās interpreting it differently from Melisandre.ā
āāāā
For what itās worth, during a dinner party some time ago I got into a lively discussion with a GoT fan who happened to be a biblical scholar. I questioned whether the post-Shireen thaw was the proximate result of the human sacrifice, or a mere coincidence, i.e., a naturally occurring weather phenomenon attributed to divine intervention.
Our conversation turned to the biblical account of Moses parting the Red Sea to let the Israelites cross over on the dry seabed, and once they were safely across, the sea rushed back in and swamped the pursuing Eqyptiansā chariots. I suggested the biblical story described an actual event, with a little embellishment to emphasize the direct role of the Lord in rescuing the pursued people and drowning their pursuers.
Long story short, after much debate I kind of agreed (compromised) that the Lord provided high tide/low tide nautical charts to Moses, who then timed the crossing during low tide when the water was ankle deep. Within minutes after that, the tide shifted and the seas started rushing back in. Even if the water level increased only a couple of feet, between the strong currents and the weight of the horses and heavy chariots, the pursuers toppled over or found themselves mired in the muck, unable to retreat.
Back to Davos vs. Mel: As Davos observed, despite the sacrifice of Shireen at the supposed command of the Lord of Light, āthey all died anyway.ā Perhaps the overnight temperature increase of a few degrees was a coincidence, and not the work of the Lord of Light. Firebug Mel somehow got it in her head to torch Shireen – but maybe she was having auditory hallucinations, and Stannis, in his desperation, went along with her cockamamie princess burning solution. If so, the Lord of Light had nothing to do with it.
(To be continued…maybe)
Dame of Mercia,
Oh I am so sorry to hear that!!! Dealing with their loss is rough, and takes a while to heal. Have had cats all my life, all of them have made a place in our hearts and stayed. I have fond memories, all had such distinct personalities. We have three now; little ones after losing three elder ones within two years . Its rough, no matter what the age š
Adrianacandle,
me as well, along with the wetness being tears
I am loving talking so much about the books. There is much Ive forgotten , I need to reread those.
Adrianacandle,
One of my fave rags to riches stories, tho loved it when she stuck with her personality, singing ‘just you wait Henry Higgins!’ Actually all the songs were glorious, even with Rex talking/singing ‘Ive grown accustomed to your face’ (I have the broadway soundtrack with Julie Andrews. Sad that she wasn’t in the movie)
speaking of rags to riches, just watched the video of Maisie in Paris – oh my gawd she is so adorable, and all grown up! Loved it when she says ‘ on the red carpet Im just still a shy little girl, wanting to go home’. Hoping and praying that she always keeps a little bit of that. I think its what grounds her, makes her seem genuine and mature, with just a touch of playfulness
Adrianacandle,
Iām 90% sure that in the books, Sansa will come north with the KotV just in time to help Jon take back WF.*
I believe that the show, by āprematurelyā bringing Sansa to the North (i.e., shoehorning Sansa into the book! Jeyne Poole & Ramsay story line) caused a host of unanticipated problems (e.g. the Butterfly Effect). After that plot and character diversion, merging back into GRRMās intended chronology wasnāt as easy as it may have looked on paper.
I suspect that much of the strained logic and inexplicable character behavior on the show were byproducts of screwing around with the booksā timeline and the charactersā geographical placement.
For example, Sansa concealing the KotV from Jon could never be adequately explained because there was no rational justification for it. In the forthcoming books, Iāll bet Jon wonāt know about the possibility of reinforcements from the Vale because Sansa will remain in the Vale until she gets word of an impending offensive by the Boltons. She wonāt have to conceal anything from Jon because she wonāt be in his orbit until the much later as compared to the show.
Also, Sansa (and Sophie) wonāt be victimized by the ridiculous LF Bolton marriage plan. (Marrying into the family that slaughtered your family? Yeah, sure…) Sansaās character development wonāt regress by becoming a crash test dummy in WF. She wonāt spend months brutalized by a psycho, or finally manage to light a candle in a tower to alert a rescuer who just happened to abandon her vigil the moment before. She likely wonāt be an escapee seeking refuge at Castle Black.
Sansa will have her moment of triumph in the books, but it wonāt come at the expense of Jonās intelligence or her own candor.
* Caveat: What do I know? I have not read the books yet. All I know about them is what Iāve learned second-hand from commenters here. š
Thanks to everyone who has expressed concern about the recent death of my cat. She was terribly weak – she went downhill very suddenly but it’s always kind when people express concern, especially on a forum like this where we only meet ‘virtually’.
Ten Bears,
I think he will be quite successful in his current plans. That is the destruction of his family and Westeros, he wont be wringing his hands over it. I think he will change his mind somewhere along the way (perhaps when Dany goes apeshit) and ‘redeem’ himself, before undertaking clean up duty.
Adrianacandle,
I want to know to, but I cling to the capitalism side. If you look at Varys and LF. Varys is all about extreme left wing, while LF is extreme rightwing. Anarchy. Order vs Chaos. Even Varys wants to control the way the king things. LF was always against the way lord-ship works. That it went down from father to son. His methods are also very capitalistic, working yourself from not much to the top. And I think it’s also not out of character if he wants a new system, where the richest has the most statue, he is the richest man in Westeros but still his statue is overshadowed by every lord who has less in the pocket.
And agree, I hope Sansa will out-smart LF. And I wonder if LF comes clean after she did that. What his true motive is, which maybe will shock people, and maybe thinking, he is partly right.
Jenny,
After S6, all of Tyronās jokes fell flat – and so did his clever plans.
Ten Bears,
The Moses discussion reminds me of that A&E program I vaguely, vaguely remember — ‘Mysteries of the Bible’ — did you ever see it? That is a fascinated debate — the parting of the Red Sea, how Moses would know when to bring the Israelites across before it filled back in to drown the pursuing Egyptians.
And the Israelites get a bit too party-hard and end up having to wander the desert for 40-years so the offending party generation dies off!
Anyway, I wonder the same of Melisandre. Though, she does seem to be having genuine visions and appears to possess a genuine connection to the Lord of Light but misinterprets. She has a vision of grey girl on a dying horse in the books fleeing for Castle Black and believes it’s Arya. However, when the girl arrives, it’s not actually Arya but a girl who looks very much like her and is a few years older — Alys Karstark.
In the books, Alys and Arya possess many of the same features, she’s not a redhead as in the show and in ADWD, she’s about a year younger than Jon. Alys and Jon remember each other from when Alys came to Winterfell and her father expected her to charm Robb. She had danced with both Robb and Jon and remembers Robb as charming while Jon was sullen š I liked the relationship between Alys and Jon, it was comfortable and amicable.
I’ve also seen theories where, while the burning of Shireen didn’t actually help Stannis and his army, it gave Melisandre the power needed to resurrect Jon. Maybe there is something to king’s blood.?
Re: Sansa and the KotV in the show, I agree with your description of the logic/geographic problems. Despite the lengthy debates over why Sansa concealed the KoTV in which we go over Sansa’s motives for this choice, it seems done only to bring about that dramatic, surprising 11th hour save. Neither the writers or the character herself explain why she did what she did.
I think it would make more sense if, as you said, Sansa comes riding to Winterfell with the KotV before she and Jon reunite, providing a reason for Jon not knowing about Sansa and the KotV. But I’m not sure what Jon will be up to post-resurrection or what the situation at the Wall will look like. It feels, at the point Jon is assassinated, all hell is about the break loose.
ash,
Yes, tears!
Ooh, I love My Fair Lady (it is a shame about Julie Andrews but I do love Audrey Hepburn. I think Julie Andrews did get a bit of a win when she won for Mary Poppins)! I LOVE Eliza’s personality (‘Just You Wait ‘Enry ‘Iggins, Just You Wait!’ starring Eliza’s revenge fantasies, utterly failing the h-test). And Eliza’s father:
Or this exchange between Professor Higgins and Eliza:
And My Fair Lady earworms have all been successfully activated š
Yes!
Adrianacandle,
That I don’t know, I just think that will happen. (Or Stannis kills Melisandre when he founds out she lied about Mance and the death of his daughter and he will die for real in the war against the others and find out that he is not the Prince that was Promised.)
But the reasoning can be simple as: Giving the lord of light another sacrafice to strengthen the living against the dead. Or short, killing Stannis by fire will secure their victory against the others.
But what I’m 100% certain of is that Stannis himself and the Northerns that follow him will survive the attack from the bolton’s, maybe not all but almost all. But his southern army will die 100%. But how that play out I still wondering. But Theon’s chapter gave it away that Stannis will survive that attack
I think Jon will also become King in the north, because Robb put that in his will.
As for Jon’s motive. The motive is almost the same as the book, but a bit different. Depends if Rickon is back at Winterfell already or not.
What we do know. Jon get killed comes back alive and can leave the nights watch legally. He will probably like in the show be done with the NW. So his focus will be the war against the others.
What we also know is that Ramsay send a letter about that he wants Arya back. And that stannis is dead. Even when Stannis survives, that’s not the information Jon and Mel will have to deal with. They believe he is dead. And the letter states that Ramsay will come to the Wall if he doesn’t get his bride back and the Red woman etc. And he wants “Arya back”. How far will Jon go to Arya? Will he march to Winterfel for her?
I also think Mel sees some vision that need Jon in Winterfel. So she pushes Jon towards it with the Arya thrope she also used in Dance.
And Jon will probably live awhile inside Ghost. Meaning he will probably see something that makes him decide to go south.
And even if Stannis takes Winterfell from the inside, doesn’t mean that that will not happen maybe a day before Jon and Mel arrives at Winterfell. Meaning they are already on the move south with the notion that they need to defeat the Boltons.
Another thing that could happen is that Jon would only go south once the wall breaks. But I still think he will be “My duty is done.”
Ten Bears,
Yep, there was an issue with Tyrion, he killed his father and lover, they showed his depression for a few episodes and then he wanted to build a better world. That’s basically the opposite of book Tyrion. They didn’t want to go down the dark dark Tyrion route, so it all fell flat. It wasn’t really a natural progression, book Tyrion wants everyone dead, and he will set it in motion (already has by sending fAegon west) before he reneges on it. I don’t think he will be a blundering idiot in the books.
I think I can agree with this in part, particularly Littlefinger moving up from bottom to the top and wanting to circumvent the lordship inheritance system. Littlefinger does thrive on chaos and uses it to his advantage (“Chaos is a laddah!”).
I would really like Sansa to genuinely outsmart LF (rather than fall for LF’s tricks — again — as she did in season 7 when Littlefinger was kindling and fanning the flames of the Sansa vs. Arya war). Admittedly, I have a really hard time ever thinking LF’s true motive might be partly right but it’s not out of the realm of possibility?
kevin1989,
Re: Stannis, victory, and the burning:
I’m not sure. This seems to hinge on many certain events happening, which may not come to pass this way. I think that could be a motive for Melisandre to burn Stannis but Melisandre has already experienced failures with her visions and if she realizes Stannis is not the Prince that was Promised after all, I don’t know how strong Melisandre’s conviction in herself would be.
Sure but while Stannis may have a plan, he may not actually survive. I still have trouble seeing Melisandre burn him.
Yes, but that will’s whereabouts are currently unknown and it had only been witnessed by a scant amount of people, many of whom are now dead. I don’t know how much of a part it will have to play. I like the idea of the Grand Northern Conspiracy but it seems really really involved.
I think Davos is still searching for Rickon, who is on the island of Skagos?
Well, from Ramsay’s letter, I’d think Jon would realize Ramsay doesn’t have Arya because Ramsay is demanding Arya back and Jon doesn’t have her either (but it’s not like there’s any universe in which Jon would ever return Arya to that monster). Jon is marching on Ramsay due to the moral depravity Ramsay demonstrates in the Pink Letter, Ramsay’s the guy who holds the seat of House Stark but is utterly debasing everything Ned Stark stood for.
From Adam Feldman:
___
Perhaps, but Jon no longer trusts Melisandre about her visions because she utterly screwed up the Arya vision.
But it depends on where Jon’s head is at post-resurrection and what happens there. Marching on Winterfell may no longer be Jon’s primary concern — something else may happen, there’s already chaos breaking out at the Wall triggered by Jon’s assassination and what may lead to the breaking of the peace between the Watch and the wildlings (the alliance between whom was fragile and held together by Jon, who’s been killed in a mutiny by his own men while Tormund and other wildlings leaders respect Jon). Something else may happen to put the Winterfell march on hold.
kevin1989,
I’ve replied but my post is currently being held in moderation — hopefully it’ll be cleared soon š
kevin1989,
https://www.quora.com/If-Stannis-is-not-dead-in-The-Winds-of-Winter-who-sent-the-letter-to-Jon-claiming-his-death
Here are some ideas what could have happened. One is that the pink letter is not send by Ramsay but by Mance with a coded Message for Melisande. One is the big plan of Stannis. And in all the Bolton’s are defeated and Stannis survives.
And a letter is not prove Stannis died. Davos died by letter. But he is alive.
My favorite theory is (which I can’t find anywhere), is that Stannis will wait inside a cave (which has information about the WW), and he gave his sword to the Manderly’s. As prove Stannis is death. The Manderly’s take out the Freys after the Freys take out a big portion of Stannis army, making them the biggest army fighting against the boltons meaning Stannis needs them and he gets along with Wayman plan. Some of Stannis soldiers will take on the Frey armor and infiltrate the castle. And open the gates for Stannis army, Manderly’s. Rickon and Osha who brough their wildling army from Skyros.
Adrianacandle,
Forgot to answer to the Jon and Dany love. It could happen but I wonder how. And maybe it was more that D&D merged Jon and Aegon that that love was in the books. Problem is that we don’t know anything about dreams before winds has been released. We can all guess a bit the first steps in winds but after that it becomes muddier for us to guess.
Maybe she will go to Winterfell after she hears that Jon Snow and Rickon are back at the Castle. And she feel safe again to go north. It would be nice if she would go back to Winterfell before the wall comes down and be part of the WW build up. But I don’t see it happen before. The defeat of the Boltons will happen in first 200/300 pages of the book. And I don’t see Sansa already back in Winterfell when her Harry the Heir storyline just started.
And it would be strange if Sansa was left out that much in Feast and Dance, that she will become the character that had a huge amount of chapters in winds. Because it takes a lot of chapters before she gain the trust of the Vale before they will help her.
And about Sansa and Aegon. (I call him Aegon because I’m still think he is the real deal and even if he is fake I don’t think that will ever be answered in the books, we have to take him as real). I always had a fan-fiction in my head that history will repeat itself. Aegon like his father, put his Martel wife to the side, to choose a Stark as his true love.
Efi,
Dame of Mercia,
Is that something like a animal shelter?
And I like that you got yourself an older cat. Too many people only want a pup or kitten, but getting a older cat shows a lot of commitment to an animal and that you want to give a cat/dog a good life.
I like the name, make me think of the flintstones. Was she a quiet cat or more “naughty and playful”?
But cherish the good moments together, and the good life she got. Maybe a nice idea, we did that with our dog. Look up a nice photo you have of her, and get it to a artist who can make a drawing of it. We had a really nice on that was spot on. And we still treasure that drawing and had it framed.
Or put a picture on a canvas. I like canvas a lot myself.
… For the night is dark, and full of terrors.
Adrianacandle,
I still remember my companion. Her name was “Nala”, and when my parents divorced she was the one who I count on the most. Showing her love when I was down and get a smile on my face. Or I could tell her things I wanted to share, and she would never tell š A dog or a cat is more than just a pet, as you state its a companion, part of the family.
I think the blame is Dany, she told Tyrion straight forward: Enough with the clever plans.
So he did.
Adrianacandle,
If his real agenda is toppling the power a few houses has (who are born with it) and want to install a system that is more “You work for it”. I think I will be partly on his side.
Which would also be amazing if GRRM goes this route. Now at the end of book 5. We all choose Varys over LF. Varys wants to have peace in the realm, LF chaos. But what if in the end it will turn into LF wants freedom overall, our way of life with capitalism, it’s not perfect but people have freedom. And Varys will be the guy who put his puppet on the throne, who is made in the image Varys wants. Which is ultimate control. I think we maybe think Varys as the bad guy of the two, and that at least LF is trying to implement a more modern system.
And what I would love is that Sansa would outsmart LF. The truth comes out and Sansa build on it further in some sense.
And maybe in the books Sansa is the one that will suggest a more free way of living. And that they need a chosen King, and best somebody who can’t have children. So Bran.
Adrianacandle,
I see where you’re coming from. That’s why I also have in my mind that maybe Stannis kills Mel for the killing of Shireen. And that Stannis dies in the battle with the others. Some even suggest that Dany will kill Stannis because Stannis was one Dany was warned about in her visions/warnings. But I’m very certain for 99% that Stannis is involved with the defeat of the Bolton’s, and I don’t think the Bolton’s will be defeated into battle, because that’s not how that storyline has been progressing for a whole book. The whole Manderly storyline is already about defeat his enemies (Which is also roose) in silent and from within. With his right he helps his enemy and with his left he defeats them. And that plan needs to go into fruition if GRRM wants that storyline to hold. And I hope personally the Bolton’s are defeated from within, in a poetic sense, instead of a battle. It feels more earned if it’s a big strategic plan. Like Trojan Horse. Ramsay takes in his enemies army when thinking it’s the freys. They open the gates of Winterfell, and the army storm the castle. Northmen, Manderly, more? And I would like that Stannis keeps his word with giving Jon Roose head if I’m not mistaken.
As for the letter you’re true. I wonder who has it. Maybe for the books it’s more logical if Rickon would be crowned King in the north?
As for Davos. Davos moved on both the same time Manderly moved to Winterfell on horse/Carriage. Do we know how? It’s safe to assume Davos will arrive much much sooner in Skagos than Manderly in Winterfell. And the question is how long does it take Davos to get Rickon. A week? 2 weeks max. I think we get 1 or 2 chapters of Davos in Skagos at the beginning of the book. Davos is at Skagos arround the time that Stannis is at deepwood motte. Lot of time passed there. We got time skips of many characters of more than a month after Davos last chapter.
A big theory is that Manderly already has Rickon safe somewhere to await the right moment, that place is close to the weirwood tree Stannis will bring Theon his next chapter. And Stannis will meet with Rickon and that will safe Theon’s life. Theon confess he never killed the boys. And then the plan will be revealed how to defeat the Bolton’s.
When I read that explanation about Jon going south, I could not disagree, that seems the Jon I know. But he is stabbed now, and we get probably first a couple of Jon is in Ghost chapter, or maybe even just one. And we know that GRRM didn’t skip a Jon chapter from Dance, but he put a lot of chapter from the battle of Stannis and Ramsay into winds that were supposed to be in dance. (Which is logical chronically). Which means that there are a lot of things that can happen around Winter-fell before Jon arrives. First the letter needs to be send, which is still I think 2 or 3 chapters away minimum and at least a day in world. Then the letter needs to arrive in Castle Black. Jon getting back to life. Going south. Which is enough time for Manderly to already destroy the Bolton’s.
And to think off it, that also mean that there is enough time for Sansa’s chapters that were moved to winds to push her towards WF around the time Jon arrives.
I will wait for your comment. I like this discussion. And I really hope we find out soon how everything turn out in winds. It’s very difficult because of the whole chronical changes in dance at the end.
kevin1989,
Yeah, Quora… Quora does have a lot of theories but ones I tend to take with a grain of salt. I think you can get a really mixed bag on Quora and, well, most places really. There are a million ways this story can go and we only have the show (in which there are some divergences to the books but I think the broad strokes are the same, as is the ending), released chapters, and GRRM’s comments to go on.
I do think Stannis is alive but I’m not so sure of his victory. We are speculating a lot and these speculations are quite involved, they hinge on many, many things, and I think that’s what happens after 8 years with no new book.
Based on GRRM’s comments and Alan Taylor’s comments in Taylor’s interview, the Jon/Dany love doesn’t seem to be divergent from GRRM’s plans. In contrast, these comments indicate they’re going in the same direction with Jon and Dany as GRRM intends to.
I don’t think it’s going to end well at all, no. But I don’t see it being fAegon’s story either, especially because fAegon is a threat to Dany and nobody knows Jon is a Targaryen — except Howland Reed, wherever he is, and he doesn’t appear to have told a soul.
Like, I have no idea of the timeline either. I don’t know how it’s going to be with Jon after he comes back, I don’t know what Dany’s going to do post-Dance. But there seems to be quite a bit connecting them in the text. I can get you a compilation if you like? But it’s GRRM’s comments which seem most important to me. I think their romance will end badly, but I think it’s going to happen
I had wondered if Sansa and Young Griff (I’ll call him Young Griff as that seems to be a fairly neutral term ;D) might form a union? I don’t know. I haven’t thought too deeply about it.
kevin1989,
ā… A dog or a cat is more than just a pet, as you state its a companion, part of the family.ā
A bird is too. Until we had one, I never realized a bird has a soul and has emotions.
āHaving a bird is like having a baby that never grows up.ā – Me
kevin1989,
Yay!! My post was released! It must have been because I burned my finger on the curling iron!!
I can’t refute what you’re saying re: Stannis but I can’t entirely be on board either since there are so many ways this story could go and I have no idea how it’s going to go or what GRRM’s intentions are. I’m really not good with speculation! I like to read it but I don’t find myself married to any one theory because I have no idea how things are going to happen so it’s hard for me to really comment.
I don’t recall that passage? I know Stannis promises Jon that he’ll save Arya if he can and Jon finds that surprisingly tender for Stannis but nothing about Roose’s head.
I don’t know either. God, I’m sorry. I’m not great at speculating because it’s beyond the realm of using commentary as support to explain my thinking XD;; I’m no theory-crafter!
I think, for us to correctly assess this, we’d need to know the distances between places. I found this . It doesn’t mention Skagos but it gives us an idea of how big Westeor is.
As for the rest, I hesitate to fully agree or disagree because I have no idea what’s going to happen with Jon, what’s happening in the chaos as a result of the assassination between the Watch and the wildlings, if Stannis is successful, what happens with Theon and Jeyne, and what other events will be going on that will prove to be obstacles so I can’t commit to any one theory or buy into one 100%, unless it’s been confirmed by the author. It’s so hard for me to be sure of any future events beyond what GRRM has commented on.
But I enjoy reading speculations!!
That’s so true! And what Ten Bears said too!
It’s harsh they don’t live nearly as long as us. They can be the ones who are most there during times of need — they don’t judge, they’re present, and they seem to sense emotion, even my cat. She gets the hell out of dodge when I get angry and start angry crying (pounding on keyboard, screaming at phone, …. throwing phone… contemplating throwing entire laptop… remembering I can’t do anything without laptop… screaming resumes…. angry trampolining) but when I’m sad or sick, she’s by my side.
And a pet can be your one true companion during times of difficulty in the way people can’t always be because people have their own stuff to deal with.
I love the name “Nala” — Lion King??
Adrianacandle,
āBased on GRRMās comments and Alan Taylorās comments in Taylorās interview, the Jon/Dany love doesnāt seem to be divergent from GRRMās plans. In contrast, these comments indicate theyāre going in the same direction with Jon and Dany as GRRM intends to.ā
________
If -and thatās a big if – the Big Kahuna ever gets around to finishing his story, I hope he is able to craft a credible Jon & Dany love story, so that if Jon is ultimately compelled to put her down. his decision will have tragic weight (and as GRRM likes to say, it will show āthe human heart in conflict with itself.ā)
I didnāt quite get that from the show. Perhaps it was āthe race to the finishā in S7 and S8. It felt like Dany and Jon had a tryst, and then before you knew it they were marching into WF and their budding romance began fraying.
……….
āI had wondered if Sansa and Young Griff (Iāll call him Young Griff as that seems to be a fairly neutral term ;D) might form a union? I donāt know. I havenāt thought too deeply about it.ā
As a non-book reader speaking from ignorance, would it be wrong for me to assume that Young Griffās absence from the show signified that he was irrelevant to the big picture, and wonāt factor into the endgame?
Oh, I see! In a twisted way, LF has gotten everything on his own steam — even if it’s by his slimy, duplicitous, jerkface means, these did come from his mind. But I think LF wanting this meritocracy and freedom for all of society seems a bit too altruistic for him š It creates competition for him.
I don’t know how Sansa’s going to develop but it’d make sense for Westeros to come away from blood-succession governance into something more elected, gradually.
Adrianacandle,
About Alan Taylor, he states it was all along about Dany and Jon, but that’s true even if they won’t form a couple. Both storylines became the center of the story, and also in the books we’re heading that way. But when Taylor was asks if that meant that they also become a romantic couple in the books (instead of a union), Taylor didn’t elaborate. And the reason they are the center of the story is because Jon=Ice and Dany=Fire at least that’s what Taylor said. But even that is a mistake because Jon=Ice+Fire. Dany=Fire and the others are probably Ice.
But for me the interview Taylor gave, gives me more that Jon and Dany are going to work together to defeat the other’s. Not perse that George will go towards them being a couple, he seemed to avoided that question on purpose. And I only see Talyor talking about it, and not George. Can’t find a source where GRRM himself states it to be true, not on his blog or an interview with the man himself.
At least I’m happy Martin and GRRM changed this love triangle:
https://www.businessinsider.com/jon-snow-arya-stark-romance-2016-7?international=true&r=US&IR=T
And you’re right it seems more likely Dany will be mad at Aegon, especially with her visions.
Well it was a fan-faction in my head on the two. Maybe because I liked Griff somehow. And I started to like Sansa in Feast and Dance. And I loved the Lyanna Rheagar love theory, which came true. So I combined them.
Per our conversations about this before, I felt conflictedness and Jon’s anguish, I saw what the cast/crew and scripts were saying, but I think it was rushed needed more development. Unfortunately, this relationship happened in the rushed season 7 (which also contained the inexplicable Sansa-trusts-LF-believes-Arya-wants-to-be-Lady-of-Winterfell-considers-killing her and the expedited season 8, where very few relationships got any development whatsoever).
But I think this is an advantage the books have over the show: the books have no time limits, we’ll have access to the character’s thoughts, and I think there will be more time to do what the story needs to do.
Sorry, didn’t want to dismiss you. You’re right, and birds are very loyal. And If I’m not mistaken, many times a bird sees one of their owners as their partner? I read something like that. That they choose one partner for life and have a big bond with that partner. And if another bird is not there to fill that role, they most of the time have that bond with their owner.
What kind of bird did you have? We had budgies in the past. (right word right in English?)
And I think we can all agree, pets are the greatest companion you can have. No matter what kind of pet.
I think he will have a significant impact but this is one of the divergences GRRM was referring to, because characters who have been killed in the show and are still alive in the books, characters that exist in the books and not in the show, will cause plot divergences. So while I think the broad strokes are the same, how they may get to these places may be different.
kevin1989,
At the point Taylor was commenting, Jon and Dany hadn’t become a couple and Taylor wasn’t able to spoil that yet — that’s why he couldn’t elaborate. He’s also recollecting what GRRM had told him so you won’t find a source on a blog, just via Tyalor’s own words.
His comments:
What came after this interview was Jon and Dany becoming a couple before the revelation tears them apart.
I didn’t say this was a guarantee but it indicates they’re both going in the same direction as Taylor knew what was next for Jon and Dany (7×06 and 7×07). This interview was done just before 7×06 and was released the day after 7×06 aired.
Adrianacandle,
āRe: Sansa and the KotV in the show, I agree with your description of the logic/geographic problems. Despite the lengthy debates over why Sansa concealed the KoTV in which we go over Sansaās motives for this choice, it seems done only to bring about that dramatic, surprising 11th hour save. Neither the writers or the character herself explain why she did what she did.
I think it would make more sense if, as you said, Sansa comes riding to Winterfell with the KotV before she and Jon reunite, providing a reason for Jon not knowing about Sansa and the KotV.ā
______
In retrospect, I thought it was really unfair to Sophie Turner to leave her twisting in the wind trying to explain her characterās motivations.
And as I recall, the KotV concealment ignited a raging fan war between pro-Sansa and anti-Sansa factions, with all kinds of theories why Sansa either brilliantly – or stupidly – withheld critical intel from Jon and the soldiers fighting and dying for Team Stark.
I donāt mean to dredge up old controversies. I just figure that not every adaptation decision can be successful. For me, merging Sansa with Jeyne Poole to give Sansa/Sophie something to do, created insurmountable problems and left logical gaps too wide to fill. Iām not sure why the showrunners felt that it wouldāve been so bad to let Sansa hang out in the Vale and do whatever she was doing in the books. Was it that boring?
Adrianacandle,
We all need to wait on the man to release his book till we know for certain.
And it seems I probably got 2 things intertwined. I could remember he said something like that. But I think I got it mixed up with the Renly stating giving Cat Joffrey’s head.
I like to speculate, and some theories I like to think off. But I’m not that great at it either. Sometimes I see a connection. But most of the time I read them and I am, this one is the most reasonable. And I’m pretty well into connecting multiple theories to give a bigger picture. But still that’s difficult and even then I’m stuck sometimes with saying something I later disagree with because another theory contradicts it.
Adrianacandle,
Skagos is east of Eastwatch. And it seems my distance was way off. White Harbor/Skagos is 4/5 times longer than White Harbor Winterfell. And I don’t know how much faster ships are than being on foot. But I think that means I was wrong and Manderly could get to Winterfell faster than Davos towards Skagos.
Adrianacandle,
Yes, our favorite movie when we were young. So that’s easy when you get a female puppy.
Ten Bears,
Big speculation is that he will be the reason Dany burn KL to the ground in the books. (Not Cersei), so he will be important for the endgame.
the reason it was cut was because the show already had too many characters. GRRM understood why D&D cut some characters out, but he had urge this character to be in it, same as Lady Stoneheart. He was not happy when those 2 were cut. Same with Arianne. I think that’s one of the reasons why he distance himself from the show in season 5 and beyond. Not because writing his books, because he still like his projects and helping with them. But because they failed too listen which characters are important for the endgame.
He has spoken of it in interviews that those characters had important storylines in his books.
And Young Griff is already given hints of in the first book. And every book after that had hints of him until he was shown in book 5. George always planned to introduced that character.
I think it was done to streamline two storylines — one storyline, which didn’t exist yet, and another that did but it was a story with Theon and a minor character (Jeyne Poole). However, this story was important to Theon’s arc and the storyline in the North. with the Boltons. Although, had it not been for Theon’s storyline, I don’t know if it would have been necessary to send Sansa to marry Ramsay in lieu of Jeyne Poole/fArya. In contrast to the books, the North didn’t seem particularly motivated to save Sansa, nor did Stannis.
Adrianacandle,
True but still that system is a system LF could easily be the master of. The backstabbing, scheming way to make yourself richer and more powerful.
Adrianacandle,
And another thing the books have that works better for it, is that not every character needs a certain screentime per season. For the characters that mean most of the time 6/10 episodes a season. But for the books George could think off, this character only needs 3 chapters. Next book will get more for them and others less. He has more freedom for that.
And of course, the thoughts of the characters.
kevin1989,
Yes. Birds bond. They consider ātheirā human(s) to be their flock.
And yes, ābudgiesā is the right word in English. Itās short for ābudgerigarsā I think. Most people call them parakeets but ābudgiesā is the accurate term to sprcify the popular pet bird species.
(There are lots of different kinds of parakeets. For example, colorful green āQuaker Parakeetsā seem to adapt well to cityscapes; itās my understanding that a few escaped pet Quaker Parakeets multiplied in the wild, and they have now established communities all over the U.S.)
PS I had a budgie. My first bird. Heās been gone thirty years. I still miss him. š¢
kevin,
Yeah. ASOIAF really gives a lot of opportunity for theories — all kinds of theories — but because there are so many theories, you can find one that you agree with more than the other or another contradicts it in a convincing way. Which is why I find it so impossible to anticipate what’s going to happen next!
That’s very true. While it does seems to me they’re heading this way in the books or I don’t think Taylor would have been able to say, “[Martin] knew from the very beginning where he was driving and now we’re starting to see that come to fruition [with Jon and Dany],” as the show had them becoming romantically involved right after this point and it’d be a major divergence for something as significant as the nature of Jon and Dany’s relationship, this isn’t a guarantee. And I think some plot details will be different.
I think it also depends on the timeline of Winds and what Rickon is like/what state he’s in/how wild he is when/if Davos or Manderly finds him. Like, there’s so much that could happen.
Omg!!! MINE TOO. And “A Little Princess” (which stars a WWI Davos!!)
That’s true. Making a system that could benefit himself as LF can’t make himself have the right blood, right history, or right name.
Yes, GRRM has more freedom when it comes to the books, it’s not so constrained, and he’s not limited to 10, 7, 6 hours of time per season. He can write on forever. If he manages to get the next book out at all.
Speaking of which! I was on Wikipedia and found this article about the ASOIAF fandom!
I liked this part XD;;
Adrianacandle,
I won’t mind if they become a couple, if it at least is better build in the books. Or at least have a feeling time has passed. It could just be one chapter of both where maybe 2 months pass in that moment but at least hear their thoughts about each other.
Ten Bears,
I agree with you fully ten bears. And no, her book storyline is brilliant. She will become the smart one in the books there. Out-smart LF etc. Her storyline is very interesting. I think just one reason the stories merge was: To make it easier storywise. Having one storyline less. Having storylines merge sooner. And no need to worry about the Jeyne Poole switch.
Which I think is a shame because Jeyne Poole could have been a nice reminder of their past live.
Adrianacandle,
And maybe to get a stark reunion sooner.
And I still think if they gave Sansa her Feast storyline in season 5 that that would have been enough. Let her make herself known in the Vale, make connection. Some powerplay with LF. And give her the amount of screentime that she had in season 2. Maybe less than what she got now but it would be enough. Let her story be about gaining power and insight and becoming smarter. Having control over Robin. Gain connection with Myranda Royce. Leaving the Eyrie because of the weather.
They threw the build up from 4×08 out of the window.
I agree it was pretty unfair for Sophie Turner. There were quite a few wars over Sansa, turning her into even more of a divisive character, and I really think it was primarily done as a Plot Device to get the dramatic arrival of the Vale when all hope seemed lost and Jon was nearly re-killed.
Ten Bears,
We had a green and a blue budgie. One was a frigid female, and the other was Tyrion in his earlier seasons. So that was a problem.
Which color did you have?
Adrianacandle,
There’s also a theory Manderly is being a dick, and he has Rickon all along, and sends Davos on a wild goose chase, only there is no goose to be found. And his reason would be that Davos is too important for Stannis, and he needs Stannis weak for better wording so Manderly can be the one that decides what’s going to happen. But if that’s true, I wonder what Davos storyline will hold. Maybe his role is finding something about the WW. Still I stick with Davos will find Rickon in winds.
Which version do you prefer, the 90s version or the 2019 version?
kevin1989,
I agree re:Jon/Dany and better development. To that end, I’d like the same for Jon and Arya. Let them come to grips what has happened to the other since they were separated, let Jon see just how well Arya took, “Stick ’em with the pointy end,” to heart.
I would have preferred for Sansa to have stayed in the Vale and focus on strengths and apply her knowledge in clever ways, gaining a sense of agency on her own. But I’m not sure what they would have done with Theon as it seems Sansa was shuttled to the North to take Jeyne’s place, which was a big part of Theon’s storyline.
kevin1989,
Me too….
I haven’t seen 2019 Lion King yet! But I think my bias will always be toward the 90s version, I had Lion King, Little Mermaid, and Beauty & the Beast everything! And we’d play Lion King at recess during school! ;;
I had a My Little Pony lunchbox and a Nala thermos ;0; <3
Ten Bears,
My October 12, 2019 at 7:18 pm comment is meant to ascribe your quote to you, not me (re:Sophie Turner having to explain Sansa’s KotV choice) — I’m not treating myself as two different people, one of whom I reply to as a separate entity, just yet š And I know plagiarism is bad!
Sorry about that!
kevin1989,
Our zoo has a memorial for pets, with several of the vets in the valley. You make a contribution to the memorial or to the vet, you get a lovely card, along with a few tickets. We’ve done that for a lot of our friends who lost their pets.
kevin1989,
Nala? Hee thats the name of one of our current cat. Shes a beautiful orange long hair tabby. We also have a male Manecoon that of course we had to name Simba. Anyway, good choice ( yes Lion King is one of our fav m ovies, and musical. Refuse to see the new one….)Anyway our latest is named Lovey, cause thats the first thing i thought of when we saw her
Adrianacandle,
I am embarrassed to admit how old I was before I realized they were talking about a plain, and not a plane…..
And a pet can be your one true companion during times of difficulty in the way people canāt always be because people have their own stuff to deal with.
I always had at least one cat who was that way with me. I’d be depressed, in tears, and they’d jump up to me and let me hold them and cry. And yeah sometimes they can be pains but they are so good (always surprised when people say their cats aren’t all that friendly, the ones we have always have been)
Adrianacandle,
hahahaha, well you know what I told this week. I still think GRRM owe his fans a conclusion. He started it, got famous for it, and got a lot of money from it. As with every job, start something finish it. But still I’m in GRRM corner. I can understand him not getting in writing mode, and I know it bothers him a lot. That makes a difference for me. It’s not that he doesn’t try. And the way those fans express their frustration is something I dislike a lot. The insults they gave him. Yikes. And it’s ironic, they love his books and want an ending but they insult the big man a lot.
The only thing I’m not agreeing with is that GRRM got himself busy with all his other projects like with HBO and his prequels while his first project is still busy, but that problem lies with his publisher. They are the ones that don’t put deadlines in their contracts, what happens mostly with sagas that they got a certain amount of time before the next book needs to hit the shelves. (so my problem is working 2 jobs when the first is not done).
But like every job, GRRM deserves his spare time, his freedom, let him watch the jets, or any other thing he loves. We love reading his books then, he loves something else.
kevin1989,
ut cherish the good moments together, and the good life she got.
Our vet always reminds us that our pets know they are well loved, and we have cared for them and loved them. We were both lucky to find each other. Helps to remember that
kevin1989,
The only thing Iām not agreeing with is that GRRM got himself busy with all his other projects like with HBO and his prequels while his first project is still busy, but that problem lies with his publisher. They are the ones that donāt put deadlines in their contracts, what happens mostly with sagas that they got a certain amount of time before the next book needs to hit the shelves. (so my problem is working 2 jobs when the first is not done).
Always pointing fingers, never at himself. I have problems with the last two seasons but those might have been better if he finished the damn books! Yes we do love reading his books. And i think he had an obligation to complete them. But I no longer expect it or care.
Sue, is there a reason that the blockquote link has disappeared? I’d like to use it; yes I can type it out but it takes longer and sometimes I mess it up. Just asking
Adrianacandle,
Just give the book counter-part. Just explain this woman play’s Arya (which is even a nice putting next to Arya becoming No-One. She becomes no-one and Jeyne becomes her.)
That story was about seeing the horror Ramsay could do, and about the whole lie that is being made by the Boltons. And I think they should have gone with the saving Jeyne part because the beauty is that somebody from Theon’s past made him feel a bit like a hero again and safes her.
Adrianacandle,
Same here. I’m not a big fan of that “realistic movies”, it pulls away the magic for me. Same with 101 Dalmatians. They made a remake of that with real dogs. Yikes. I love dogs, but how will they put in those conversations while feeling real. Having a dog talk would feel fake.
ash,
Great idea of your zoo.
And great name. I like it š
That would be a soggy airplane!
But you’re in good company. For years, with complete earnest, I thought this boy in my kindergarten class came up with the word ‘cool’ so when celebrities said it on TV, I thought, “Wow, Jessie is REALLY famous!” For years, I thought that! Yikes……..
Yes! They always seem to know the nuances of how you’re feeling. And I don’t know how they do that. Animals, in general, seem to sense it.
I really like cats because they do offer that companionship but they’re also convenient! No walks! No using the living room as a toilet if you don’t let them outside! No barking! š š š
Dogs are great too! But they’re a level of work and commitment beyond me.
kevin1989,
I think, legally, GRRM has already fulfilled his contract with us — we haven’t prepaid for future books and have received the books we paid for but I feel he’s stuck. And so his mind goes to things he’s not stuck on, things that are new and fresh and maybe don’t pose a million and one problems with enormous pressure, becoming knots he has to untangle and bring together into something cohesive.
I am wondering if they’d have enough time to allow for that in the show though because I think a big part of combining Sansa’s storyline with Theon’s was streamlining two major stories into one.
Yeah, that’s my issue too. Ironically, it feels more “real” when it’s a cartoon. Or more natural? I wonder if that’s the better word? Maybe because an animator can draw the animal in a way that it makes sense for them to have human expressions and move their jaws in a way that allows for it to look as if they’d have human speech?
Adrianacandle,
āOmg!!! MINE TOO. And āA Little Princessā (which stars a WWI Davos!!)ā
āPapa! Papa!ā
……
SARAH! SARAH!
(Me: ššššš„)
YESSSS!!!!!
I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of Pogo but he made this plunderphonics piece out of the Little Princess, which I love:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4jmB9fdZc8
From Wikipedia, Pogo “is a South African-born, Australian electronic musician whose work consists of recording small sounds, quotes, and melodies from films, TV programmes or other sources, and sequencing the sounds together to form a new piece of music (a genre also known as plunderphonics). A number of Pogo’s works consist almost entirely of the sounds he samples, with few or no additional music or sound samples.”
kevin1989,
Tried to post reply to your question. The Lord of Light diverted it to āThat Page Not Found.ā Iāll try again later or tomorrow. Gotta go to a family birthday party.
PS My budgie was violet blue.
Adrianacandle,
Six Degrees of Game of Thrones:
Voice of Nala in āThe Lion Kingā = Moira Kelley
= figure skater Kate Moseley in āThe Cutting Edgeā co-starring Roy Dotrice as Russian skating coach
Roy Dotrice = Pyromancer Hallyne in S2 GoT and ASOIAF audiobooks narrator
You have a true gift, Ten Bears!
kevin1989,
(Re: Sansa Jeyne S5 merger)
āThey threw the build up from 4Ć08 out of the window.ā
____
Thatās exactly how I felt.
I thought that scene in S4e8 when she came down the stairs silhouetted in sunlight, dressed in her Cat 2.0 outfit and exuding confidence (āShall we go?ā) signaled the emergence of the new and improved Sansa. (Or to use a familiar metaphor, I thought the little bird was finally going to spread her wings and take flight.)
But nope. Back to being another psychoās punching bag for yet another season.*
* I mean, if the LF plan was for Sansa to infiltrate WF and poison all of the Boltons, I wouldāve been on board with that.
Oh wait. Thatād require the skills and chutzpah of a Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess. šøš»š”
kevin1989,
Pebbles was the name she had when I got her. Maybe
for the tortoiseshell on white marking. The Cats Protection League is a charity that co-ordinates the rehoming of cats and has shelters and foster homes. They inspect your home before they say it’s okay for you to have a cat and try to match you up with one. You are also expected to give a donation when you adopt a cat.
Dame of Mercia,
I found the Rainbow Bridge poem. Iāll post it later today (Sunday) if you donāt mind checking back in ~ 12 hours.
That sounds like a really great, thorough system to make sure the right prospective adopter is matched up with the right cat and the prospective adopter is prepared for the responsibility š I’ve seen several instances, even among my friends, where people surrender their pet because they’re no longer up for the responsibility or they find the animal to be more work than they expected.
Which is why I could probably never have a dog.
Thank you all, Ten Bears, Adrianacandle, Tron, Jenny, Efi & Co. for the detailed books vs. show talk. I had planned to reread ASOIAF (I have read it only once), but I couldn’t find the time. Following your discussion helps me a lot!
Adrianacandle,
Well personally I see it more as building a house, the books are the house. And we are the costumer, and GRRM is the house builder. And you pay per part of the house that is being delivered to you. And yes he did give us those parts of the house that we already paid for. But we still are left with only 5/7 of the house, if we knew beforehand that the house would never be finished, we wouldn’t have poured our money into that project, and would have chosen another project. We all started with the first book into the notion we would get the ending of it. If somebody had told his fans back then: You have only paid for the first book, so if I decide to stop writing the story and give you an open ending when I’m bored with it. He wouldn’t have had a single book sold and wouldn’t be living his dream right now, where he doesn’t need to worry about money, about choosing what he wants.
That’s how a saga works, and even many saga-writers already state their opinion about it, and that GRRM is obligated to finish his story for his fans. Even Stephen King told that. Even in our country we had a amazing talkshow where writers, singers and actors come from all around the world, and is a pretty good talk-show (even when I don’t watch it often), but there was a writer there that stated that if you take the money of your readers, you should give them an ending to your story.
Same with every other work-field where you poor money into. I know somebody who has a own small plumber company, they also get paid per part of the job they perform. (You can see that as paying per book). But in the end they need to finish the whole project (book-saga). If they do not, they need to pay every single penny back to the one that they had the contract with. Or else find another plumber that will finish the project for you. You can’t leave your customers where you get your money from with a half-baked project.
Still I understand GRRM that he can’t get those chapters on paper if they are not in his mind, and living there. And luckily GRRM feels that he needs to give his fans closure, so I back GRRM all the way, and I believe he will finish the story. But I think instead of finding distractions (with all the new projects), focus on things that can get you’re muse back into the books. Old music, or other things.
Because for me, if GRRM end up not finishing his books, I would feel cheated with the money he took from me, especially now that his first concern is the prequels and not winds anymore. He took my money and now he is ok with it, he got his due and got rich of it and goes to the next project.
And the thing is, if he would be a dutch-writer. He could have been dragged to court for this. We have some laws stated (that count for every profession), that a project you start, you need to finish for you costumer. He could have been forced to finish his first project first before he could work on the prequels. Costumers are well protected in our country. And most publishers in our country when you go to them for writing a story that contains 2 books or more, you get a clause in it, that you can’t work for another “boss”/publisher/TV/Movie etc until the project your working on is finished. How that works I don’t know. But our country finds customer more important than the one deliver it. And a writer of a saga couldn’t work on side project until his saga is finished. Our publishers first concern is the reader, not the writer, because the writer gets his money, and the costumer pays for it.
Adrianacandle,
Of course they had. They could just have a story-pace of the first 4 seasons. (4 was the slowest of them all, but the fan-favorite because we got to zoom in on every character moment). They decided to cut SoS into 2 books because it was better for the characters, their concern was the characters not the plot. With Feast and Dance they decided with, the plot needs to get moving, not what was needed for the characters. Look at Jon snow journey beyond the wall, took 2 years. In season 5 that needed to happen in 2 episodes.
And explaining Jeyne play’s fake Arya could be told in just 1 scene of max 3 minutes. Theon’s story would be shorter because it would not concern the bounding with Sansa and all those scene. The focus would be different. With Sansa if she would have gotten her book counterpart it would have given a storyline of 25/30 minutes. Brienne needs to get her own storyline, which could be like season 4. Around 20 minutes. Theon could also be shorter, and have a different focus, and let the Jeyne story in season 6. (My project has it in season 6 probably).
I still think it could be done. But it would have taken a lot more time writing because of the multiple storylines. They wrote season 5 in around 10 weeks max. With deciding the Storylines and what could happen per episode etc. But to bring a perfect adaption of those 2 books, that is a lot of puzzling, meaning that probably double the time is needed at least to bring the perfect adaption to the table. That’s why I still understand D&D with the timeframe they were in.
And yes that about the cartoons. They could change the face a bit, and the talking is more realistic. And our imagination can work the magic. With the newer version the imagination is gone.
Shy Lady Dragon,
Aw, that’s so nice thank you! We are probably wrong about all of it lol. But it’s fun to talk about it anyway. Tron’s updates spark some interesting discussions.
Ten Bears,
Beautiful color. That was the color of the Tyrion-bird we had. The female was green/yellow.
Ten Bears,
Damn that would have been a brilliant way to deal with it. And combine those story-lines, and perfectly in line with the books, she would have gotten the Manderly storyline. She could have played the victim with Ramsay, but at the same time the smart one which takes out Ramsay with poison.
But one problem, the show needed at least one big battle every season. (Personally I wished we got the Meereen battle of the books, damn that would have been awesome)
Dame of Mercia,
That sounds like a great charity. Especially that they look which cat match the best with you. They probably know all the personalities of the cats they have.
kevin1989,
I still have faith that we will get them one day, and if not, someone will release the unfinished manuscripts 30 years from now, like the Tolkien estate (unless he legally prevents it). The other week, Brandon Sanderson announced on Twitter that he was 2/3 of the way through his latest novel, how cool is that? An actual real life update for the fans. I imagine GRRM is about 1/4 of the way through Winds.
kevin1989,
If we are talking birds, I have to mention my Bob, he is a cockatiel and is now over 20, I actually can’t remember how old I was when I had him, I want to say 10/11 and that would make him 22. He’s an old man now, I’m actually really suspicious about him, he hasn’t come out of his cage in months because he lost the ability to fly, either he can’t see or he isn’t strong enough because he kept clattering to the floor and had to be rescued. He stays in his cage now, I’m convinced he’s on his way out, I’ll be gutted, I’ve had him for so long. 25 is max age in captivity.
Jenny,
I like that. That he does that. Well I don’t mind if GRRM doesn’t finish it himself. I prefer it, the man is amazing when writing books. But else I hope he finds somebody who can help him with it. He could just write a written synopsis for every single chapter he wants to write and give it to one writer he trusts. But still I have faith GRRM will release them all.
But I think GRRM has problems with saying how far he is. He writes per character. And once he is finished he writes another 200/300 pages for his next book to make sure his “endings” are as they should. Most of the time he switch a couple of chapters from one book to the next. So if he states I’m halfway through that means he has written half winds + 100/150 pages.
As for how far I think he is, I think he is around 75% of the book. I think he finished a couple of characters he finds easy to write. He already finished his Dance chapters in 2011. But he is stuck with the last parts. But I wish he would give an update on it. The only update he has given that both the rumors he is finished and that he hasn’t written a single page (outside the Dance chapters) are both wrong.
Jenny,
Does he still give affection. And I hope he still feels happy and loved.
kevin1989,
I think I read somewhere that he won’t let anyone finish it for him, but there are so many false stories about these mythical books that I take it with a large grain of salt. I’m still hopeful that he will do it himself.
Unfortunately no, he won’t leave his cage, but wont let anyone near him either he’s a proper old grouch. So we keep him in the living room where he doesn’t get lonely, there are always people about. He eats and drinks a lot, and chirps at himself in the mirror so he seems OK. It’s sad for me though, I love him but he’s having non of it. I’m just really paranoid about him dying, I always check he’s alive when I walk in, that’s a bit morbid isn’t it lol.
Ten Bears,
Acoording to the prophecy, “two kings to wake the dragon; the father first, and then the son, so that they both die kings”.
This is the prophecy Jon fears and he swaps the babies.
Could it be that Stannis is one king, killed on the battlefield? And then the classic Martin subversion: not a son, a daughter is burned on the stake to wake the dragon (Jon)?
kevin1989,
I think, unlike a partially completed plumbing job or house, a book in and of itself is a complete unit and a non-essential (whereas shelter and access to functioning plumbing are considered essential to standards of living and health). It’s the series that is incomplete. GRRM, as the creator, could very well throw up his hands and say, “Okay, book 5 is the end.”
Which would hurt GRRM’s reputation/credibility but he’s not legally obligated to us as the customer. He sold five books, we bought five books. We aren’t being left with a 5/7th completed house or a partially working toilet. We’re being left with an unfinished story, which is unlikely to harm the fulfillment of our essential needs.
While it’s on GRRM that he still hasn’t finished, it’s also on us that we started reading an unfinished series. If we wanted to read a guaranteed completed series, we need to pick an already-completed series.
However, neither we, D&D or GRRM anticipated that book 6 and 7 would be this much trouble.
I have an inkling Shireen is toast (bad pun) but it’s more that Jon fears child-burning rather than the prophecy so Jon is trying to take away any incentive for Melisandre to burn kids (Val knows about the baby switch, Val is certain Melisandre knows too, so it kind of does look like with no king’s blooded babies around, Melisandre may burn Shireen instead). The prophecy itself is something Jon doesn’t seem to believe in much and Aemon tells Jon that there are those who believe in the power of king’s blood so he needs to take it seriously:
kevin1989,
They destroyed Jungle Book for me with using real animals. Went home, pulled down my old DVD of the original, and watched it to get it out of my head (I also have the original video, but no VHS)
Efi,
To that end, re: poor Shireen, there are some troubling things in the text which may hint at her demise š
This passage between Val and Jon, where Val insists Shireen is “dead” and it would be a mercy to kill her and Jon, horrified, argues Shireen is not dead.
And it seems GRRM shared three “holy sh!t” moments with D&D and Shireen’s fiery death is the first one.
kevin1989,
I’ll try to address some of this later today!
As for the cartoon vs. real-life versions, yup!
I should be thanking everyone. From reading comments here I think Iāve learned more about the books than if Iād read them myself. š
Adrianacandle,
I agree with that, but in my country. GRRM couldn’t get a contract with HBO, for the prequels until he would have finished his first saga first. We don’t differentiate with what kind of job you do. If you start a project, you finish it before going to the next. We don’t held writers above other works, they are the same and are treated the same as the working class. In our country the saga of George would be seen as a 7 part project, and until all 7 parts are finished you are under contract with your publisher, and it depends on the publisher if they put in a clause for working for another employer. If the publisher have that, (and most of the time they have. You are obligated to finish the books before you can take a contract with for instance a TV-company for making tv-shows. If the publisher doesn’t have such a clause (which I doubt that they don’t include it, but I say later why), the writer could take such a contract without having a problem what so ever. That is happening with GRRM also, he is not obligated to finish the story because the publisher didn’t include such a clause.
But here comes the second part why I think every single publisher in my country have such a clause. Our country finds costumer service very important. That means that you can expect a finish product if you pay the first part of the transaction. In this case, you paid for at least one book in the saga, that is already known to have 7 books at least. It doesn’t have an ending. But you paid for it, so the publisher has the obligation to give you the whole saga in the end, the whole project. If you take it or not is up too the customer. If they don’t deliver that. The costumer can ask their money back for the books they already bought. And the publisher needs to pay that. That’s why normally the publisher make sure that risk is put with the writer.
But the tricky part here is, that that only counts if there is no change for the project to be finished. Delay can happen. In that case GRRM wouldn’t have a problem, because he can say, he is still working on it. He is still busy with giving the customer the next part of the transaction. But the customer can use at the same time, that he has problems with delaying because another project is taken time that is the cause of the delay. It’s more what weights more, depends on the judge.
Luckily dutch people can be very grounded, and probably just like you think, it’s just a book. And that’s why never such a lawsuit happened. But we have enough laws to protect the customers, when the customer already paid.
Not saying that I saying that such a law need to be executed in George’s case. Let him take the time. But it bugs me a lot, when I have the patience for years, that he can finish the story, and I am always in his corner, and defend him etc. He decides to instead get his muse back, to take on project after project after project that he knows will delay his books for years and years, he made a deliberate choice that results in further delaying. And at the same time he keeps promising the books are coming. So that really bugs me.
I totally missed this message! (Thanks, Ten Bears!) I’m glad you found this discussion useful! š I’ve found it really interesting too, it’s motivated me to revisit certain passages and really think about them, something I haven’t done in a while with some chapters!
kevin1989,
Yes, it is dependent upon stipulations agreed on between the publisher and GRRM, but those would be individualized and up to those two parties alone rather than any universal law. It doesn’t matter what “most” or “many” publishers do, it matters what kind of contracts GRRM and his publishers have.
I don’t know what sort of contracts GRRM has between HBO and various publishers, but such stipulations would be determined only by those parties for that project. And it seems the publishers and HBO are okay with this. So he’s really not legally obligated to us.
GRRM is not the first to struggle with finishing an existing series and he won’t be the last. But any legal issues would be between himself and the publisher/associated production company, not between GRRM and us.
We didn’t pay for an ending though. We paid for the individual books we bought. There’s an expectation that we’ll get an ending because it’s an unfinished saga but it’s not a guarantee. It’s the same risk we take when watching a new TV series that might be canceled or dropped. The writer may not finish the series.
Even good customer service is not a guarantee or legally required. We’re required to receive what we paid for but nothing else beyond that. Bad customer service can hurt reputation but generally (unless it turns into something that does violate the law, like assault or harassment), it’s not illegal.
GRRM may have a social(?) obligation(?) to us to finish but not a legal one.
I can really understand your annoyance, I’m irritated too (but I can also understand because creativity and writing flow is impossible to force, and when it is forced, it’s not great work) but it’s entirely out of our hands. We’re kind of at his mercy here but he doesn’t owe us anything legally.
kevin1989,
ā…But one problem, the show needed at least one big battle every season.ā
____
Yeah, that was a problem, and another downside of the showās success: A big – and bigger battle every season to appease the masses. I admired the technical achievements…but preferred the quieter character moments like in S4e7. For me, two characters alone in a cell, by a campfire, or at a tavern table – just talking – was more poignant than dragons belching fire or armies colliding.
As much as I enjoyed the big battle scenes, Iāve never felt the urge to watch them again. By contrast, a scene like Oberyn visiting Tyrion in his cell; recounting a trip to Casterly Rock when Tyrion had just been born and his disappointment that āthe freakā turned out to be ājust a babyā – capped off by that memorable line āI will be your championā, never gets old. I can rewatch that scene in perpetuity. And probably will.
S4e7 was chock full of those one-on-one character moments, including recitals of long-ago events. As the pace of the show accelerated after S6 we didnāt get many of those kinds of extended one-on-one scenes. Those that we did get were often abbreviated to sixty seconds or so.
I donāt buy the excuse that it wasnāt necessary to show characters conveying information we already know, or that we should assume they shared the information off-screen. Exhibit A: Cutting away from Jon, Bran, Arya & Sansa in the Godswood right before the reveal of Jonās true parentage, and never showing the sistersā reactions. For me, that shouldāve been an emotionally and dramatically significant moment, and couldnāt be discarded as an unnecessary or redundant info dump.
[Oops. Didnāt mean to whine. Iād intended to express my appreciation for the scenes I really liked.]
Ten Bears,
You may not have intended to do it, but I agree 100%, that really really bothered me. As did Arya going from, ‘we need to stick together’ to ‘I’m never coming back’ with no connecting scene. I was just like, ‘Wait, what? Does Sansa know? Did you say goodbye?’ I remember being convinced that Sansa and Arya had concocted a plan to assassinate Cersei and that’s why we didn’t see it, that was the type of thing I had come to expect since S7… lol clown.
Jon not saying goodbye to Sam before going into exile felt wrong too, I love that relationship, I know they put it in Episode 4, but come on, they were never ever going to see each other again.
Ten Bears,
When in a war, carastrophe or not for people depends on whether in the end they’re on the winning side or not. It will depend on whose side Tyrion will be when this whole thing ends in the books.
In ADWD, there’s a girl named Penny. She a dwarf just like him and she had a dwarf brother. Problem is, she’s had her brother decapitated after Cersei’s order to “bring her the head of the dwarf”, so she’s very emotional about it, whines to Tyrion about it and holds him accountable for what happened to her and her brother. Losing her brother meant for Penny that her entire life is overturned in a single moment; she’s alone, she has nowhere to go and she has nothing to do to make a living. Tyrion indulges her, but doesn’t really want her with him even though he feels bad for her. In his arc, Penny represents to Tyrion what Hizdar represents to Dany: innocence, the promise of a different life, the chance to take distance from what troubled him in the past (conspiracies, revenge, etc). While Dany’s relationship with Hizdar contains an erotic element because they’re married, Tyrion’s relationships with Penny has not gone there yet even though Tyrion thinks of it, but doesn’t want to do it, because Penny’s a dwarf and because he thinks there’s no future, to be precise that he wouldn’t give Penny a future, he’d just take advantage of her and move on.
In this context, what happens to Penny will very much represent the choice he makes. Will he pursue his plans to take revenge on his sister, or will he abandon this road? He could very well become a councillor of Daenerys without any plans of revenge. He could help her stay in Meereen.
Unfortunately, my prediction is that Hizdar will be executed and Penny will also die, but perhaps by accident. For moving to Westeros Dany needs to cut her bonds with Essos, so it doesn’t look good. And Tyrion needs to decide; he can’t take revenge while all along loving his brother and his sister.
Adrianacandle,
My mistake. I should have written “fears for swapping the babies”. Jon is afraid that others will use the prophecy as an excuse to burn a baby.
Adrianacandle,
ā…Iām irritated too (but I can also understand because creativity and writing flow is impossible to force, and when it is forced, itās not great work)…ā
_______
Thatās likely the reason why G hasnāt been able to finish the books. Unlike other professions where you can competently do your job even if your heart isnāt in it or your mind is on something else, authors or songwriters canāt just sit down and pump out a great book or a hit song whenever they want.
By no means would I compare my own pedestrian work experiences to those of a successful writer like GRRM. I just remember an occasion a few years ago when I was commissioned to do an assignment at work; I immersed myself in it, researched it, wrote it up, and turned it in. No problem.
About a year later, I was asked to update it to incorporate new information. However, by that time I was engaged in another project, with charts, notes, and outlines taped to the walls, Post-It notes plastered on the window, and scribbled pages all over my desk (and lots of crumpled paper in and next to the trash basket).
I had thought revising the old project would only take a few weeks since the bulk of the work had already been done and Iād just be adding to it. Piece of cake, right?
I was wrong. The only way I could get my head out of that new project I was working on and focus on updating the old one, was to take all the charts, notes and diagrams off the walls, peel off all the Post-It notes, gather up all the papers on my desk, and put them all in a box in a storage room. Until I did that, my attention would always drift to the new work in progress and Iād subconsciously procrastinate doing work on the old one.
I guess what Iām trying to say is that so long as GRRM is engaged in his other projects, itās only human nature that heāll devote his creative energy to those newer projects. Each day, itās all too easy to rationalize putting off revisiting and updating ASOIAF for another day … as days turn to weeks, and weeks turn to years.
Aside from all that, someone in his shoes at his age should be able to take a victory lap and then kick back, enjoy the fruits of his success, and do whatever he feels like doing. I feel bad for the guy, with so much pressure put on him and put on himself, and constantly having to make excuses, apologies, and explanations for delays and missed deadlines.
Thatās why Iāll say once again: GRRM should just throw in the towel and announce that heās not going to finish the books.
Suggestion? Channel the ultimate realist, Sandor Clegane, and declare:
āF*ck it. Iām done.ā
Jeez, this out-of-blue appreciation for books 4 and 5 which appeared here only reminds me why I don’t comment here anymore. I feel this site is totally the opposite now compared to what attracted me here in 2015/2016.
Efi,
I think you and Kevin are right about Shireen š
I still need to reply to you, Kevin, but I think that’s going to have to wait as I have the Headache from Hell, induced by terrible, terrible, terrible sunlight, and I must put myself into dormancy for a few hours in hopes it’ll help š
Ten Bears,
Yeah! I think you explained it really well!
There’s a freshness and sense of excitement to new projects, I think, and for me, that can mean they aren’t so bogged down by issues that can accumulate as you get further along in existing projects. And it’s hard to switch mental headspaces.
When I get stalled on something, it can be so disheartening upon being unable figure out how to overcome an issue (or issues). So I procrastinate, I focus on other stuff, I promise myself, “I just need to wait for this to come in/I’ll just read up on this/I just need to find this,” but I’m also afraid that when I do, it won’t solve my problem and I’ll be stuck at square one in worse shape, having failed yet again. So I avoid and avoid, focusing on things I can figure out — unless I have an epiphany or something. Which is rare and must be chemically induced sometimes š
And I think GRRM is having a time trying to figure out how to pull together the multitude of stuff he’s set up and how to bring that to their ultimate conclusions. So he might be focusing on stuff the creative juices are currently flowing for? Things that aren’t so bogged down by all that he has to figure out.
As much as I want the books out, I agree with this. I can’t imagine that kind of pressure. When I did my oral defense for my graduate thesis, five minutes before the panel came in, I rushed to the window, fought to open it while trying not to stress cry, and threw up into this tiny alley on Dundas Street. And then, as I presented, I kept feeling it threaten to come back up again — and that was just from the pressure and anxiety of an oral defense. It was terrible, that presentation felt like it would never end and I’d feel this way forever. Everything was on edge, I felt like dying. I definitely had fever glow.
But having so much of the world waiting on you, with so much more attention from the sky-rocketing success of the show — and for that amount of time — it’s mind-boggling for me. I wouldn’t be able to breathe.
kevin1989,
Ok, because I tried to answer these questions and my reply went into the open space (again), I’ll break it down to pieces and try once more.
Part 1.
“What did you think about who betrayed Arianne and who is septa Lemore.”
I find your theories very interesting and I like more the one about capitalism; it appears that LF is a master when it comes to getting money, especially for himself. But isn’t LF’s speech about destroying house Stark (in season 1, i think?) from the books? I remember having chills when I was watching it.
Lol, Myranda Royce asks Sansa at some point “how little is his finger really”? while the question should have been “how little is his soul”?
The rest -if ever- comes in spoilers.
Adrianacandle,
“Yay!! My post was released! It must have been because I burned my finger on the curling iron!!”
A sacrifice to the God of Fire? Not you too, Brutus?
Adrianacandle,
wow I am behind the times. The only Pogo I know is this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogo_(comic_strip)
kevin1989,
Actually several zoos use it, or something similar, around the country. But yeah it is cool
Jenny,
Reply to Jenny @ 1:01 pm
(Part 1 of 2)
ā… I remember being convinced that Sansa and Arya had concocted a plan to assassinate Cersei and thatās why we didnāt see it, that was the type of thing I had come to expect since S7ā¦ lol š¤”ā
____________
Argghh! Because I was generally content with the culmination of the Sandor & Arya story, and really liked their final scene together (āSandor!… Thank youā) Iāve been trying to resist whinging about this odd little detail about Sandor convincing Arya it wasnāt necessary to follow through with her plan to assassinate Cersei. Oh well. Here goes…
ā¢ In Arya & Sandorās final scene together in the crumbling Red Keep (below), Sandor tells Arya to go home because Cersei is as good as dead:āThe fire will get her. Or one of the Dothraki. Or maybe that dragon will eat her. Doesnāt matter, sheās dead…ā
ā¢ And yet, when Sandor starts mounting the stairs to take on FrankenGregor, Cersei is very much alive… and he lets her slither right by him when he couldāve easily dispatched her with a swing of his sword!
ā¢ I understand that the script called for Cersei to be killed by Random Brick #35, and Sandor was fixated only on Gregor in that stairway scene.
ā¢ Still, having convinced Arya to abort her mission to kill Cersei because āsheās deadā or will soon be killed by fire, Dothraki or dragon, I wouldāve expected Sandor to make sure his acolyteās mission succeeded. It only wouldāve taken a second.
ā¢ Plus, why have Cersei scurry down the stairs within striking distance of Sandorās big f*cking sword in the first place?
ā¢ My biggest gripe? A missed opportunity for a signature Sandor line when telling Cersei sheās about to die at the behest of that āfilthy little animalā (as Cersei described Arya) whoād disappeared in S1.
ā¢ Thinking back to all of the putdowns, taunts and insults Cersei directed to and about Ned Stark, Sansa Stark (and her ādolt brotherā Jon Snow), and Arya Stark throughout 7+ seasons, surely she deserved a snarky comeback delivered on behalf of the Starks.
How difficult would it have been to write one? It almost writes itself.
Even if Sandor didnāt slice her in two, I expected to hear a biting parting shot as she scurried by him.
___
S8e5 Arya and Sandor final scene
(at 0:22 – 1:28)
Sandor: āGo home girl. The fire will get her. Or one of the Dothraki. Or maybe that dragon will eat her. Doesnāt matter, sheās dead. And youāll be dead too if you donāt get out of here.ā
Arya: āIām going to kill her!ā
(As Arya starts forward, Sandor grabs her arm and yanks her back)
Sandor: āYou say youāve wanted revenge a long time. Iāve been after it all my life. Itās all I care about, and look at me. Look at me! You want to be like me?ā
(Embracing her head, looking in her eyes, and speaking to her gently, as she looks back up at him with puppy dog eyes)
Sandor: āYou come with me, you die here.ā
(As Sandor walks off, Arya calls after him)
Arya: āSandor! … Thank you.ā
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DgACkATLvA
(to be cont.)
Reply to Jenny, Part 2 of 2
______
Sandor vs. Gregor S8e5
(at 0:55 – 1:05) Sandor cuts down Kingsguard like carving a cake
(at 1:43 – 1:52) Sandor lets Cersei skeedaddle right by him on the stairs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG4QxeLWo7U
āāā
Ohohohoho! I will pray to any god who will get my comments posted! I will even sacrifice buying two Marc Jacobs fineliners to get a Jo Malone candle so our Lord of Light, God of Fire, Sacrificer of Innocents will hear my most devout prayers for successful comment submittal!
I may deliberately burn chocolate in the microwave to that end — which proves there’s no length I wouldn’t go to š
Musician Pogo and Comic Pogo have two things in common! Both are fun for kids and adults š
Btw, since you mentioned Julie Andrews the other day, I’ve been going down a Julie Andrews singing hole on YouTube…. the music just seems to effortlessly come out of her, it never stops amazing me. I watched both her medleys with Carol Burnett and they are so so good.
Jenny,
āJon not saying goodbye to Sam before going into exile felt wrong too, I love that relationship, I know they put it in Episode 4, but come on, they were never ever going to see each other again.ā
āā
It also felt wrong to me that Sam didnāt speak up on behalf of Jon in the S8e6 dragonpit conclave. Jon had always spoken up for Sam, who never wouldāve made it through NW boot camp alive were it not for Jon.
Another thing: Was there some tacit agreement to conceal Jonās parentage at the end?
When Yara started bitching that Jon should be executed by the Unsullied, Arya said sheād slash her throat if she threatened āmy brother.ā
And of course, when discussing who should be the monarch, nobody – not Sansa, Tyrion, Arya, Sam or Bran – bothered mentioning Jon Snow aka Aegon Targaryean, the supposed āheir to the Iron Throneā per Bran & Sam.
What was that all about? Just another reminder that the big reveal of Jonās parentage didnāt amount to much?
Efi,
FYI: Iāve been trying to adapt the Lord of Light Resurrection Prayer (below) to restore comments that disappear into the ether, vanish into āThat Page Not Foundā Oblivion, or get stuck in Moderation Purgatory.
(Thoros S3e5)
Thoros: āLord, cast your light upon this man, your servant. Bring him back from death and darkness. His flame has been extinguished. Restore it. For the night is dark and full of terrors.ā
Ten Bears,
I actually never thought about that, you are so right! In my dream scenario, Cersei died in the throne room as she planned to do in S2. Dany finds her there after she refuses to leave. She could get smacked by a brick in the throne room surely?
I think that’s called paying the Iron Price.
There’s nothing more to it than the simple fact that Arya (and I’m sure Sansa too) will always think of Jon as their brother, regardless of his true lineage.
Well, Bran wouldn’t have mentioned it because he already knew who would be king, so that wouldn’t have made much sense. š As for the others, I mean.. yeah, that whole sequence was definitely a bit rushed through, but taking it at face value, Jon is on trial for murder. Grey Worm & The Unsullied want him dead. I think their primary concern at the time was to keep Jon alive, so they’re not overly concerned with his status as the “true king”. Furthermore, I would guess that they all instinctively knew that with Jon just having killed Dany, making Jon king would not be the greatest unifying move — it would have been far to controversial given what he had just done.
I think that’s one of the points of Bran being king is that he is neutral. There was little to no controversy around him being crowned king, and at this point, everyone needed to heal and was done with war and fighting. Bran was the best choice.
Ten Bears,
Yeah, that was another scene where a lot of discussion took place off screen. I think we are supposed to assume that they discussed and dismissed Jon before the meeting, he was no longer an option so they didn’t bother. That’s fine I guess, but not very satisfying in the last ever episode, which I think was 2 episode’s crammed into one. That dragon pit scene should have been an episode by itself.
Random thing, Kit was at a Con at the weekend, he signed someones photo with ‘I don’t want it’ which I thought was super cute. I hope he is in on the joke because she would have asked him to write that.
Adrianacandle,
Your right of course, I’m just a bit frustrated. He got me hooked on this amazing saga, for me maybe the best I have ever read. And I wish too get the ending. And also I’m not big on money, minimum income. And I bough his first books which was a huge saving for me. And I can understand his delay and his problems with writing. Especially the way George writes with getting inside the heads of his characters. And he know that those projects are a huge distraction for him. And that he chose HBO over his fans is something that I can’t fathom. But it seems I’m not the only one that thinks that.
Ten Bears,
“What was that all about? Just another reminder that the big reveal of Jonās parentage didnāt amount to much?”
Questions unanswered, I’m afraid. The answers if there are any shall forever and ever go into the outer space along with my amazing theory on who Septa Lemore is.
No matter what I do, hair iron/supplications to the lord of light/candle burning/cigarete lighting, it doesn’t work, and it has to be with the spoiler code.
[I don’t have chocolate in my home –dangerous, dangerous temptations!]
Ten Bears,
I agree fully with you. A battle must feel earned. And it’s only earned when you get amazing character moments. And I wouldn’t mind if season 5(and beyond) was slower like the first 4 seasons. And that there was almost no action involved. I like those character moments. It would also have cost less madness on the crew. And I think season 5 didn’t need a big ending. Season 3 didn’t have one. Season 4 did. It all was moving towards season 4. Season 5 and 6 could have been the same.
And as for battle. I think I would have been amazing if we got Meereen battle like the books.
Adrianacandle,
I will wait patiently.
Lord Parramandas,
What’s the problem with liking the fourth and fifth book. I mean it’s a fan site dedicated to the books and show. And I see no problem in liking the books in which the show derived from.
Efi,
I loved that chapter.
Efi,
Who do you think septa lemore is? I heard another theorie that septa lemore is really
Enharmony1625,
Fair enough.
Still… is Jonās parentage supposed to remain a closely held secret? Or does it not even matter anymore?
Kevin1989,
I keep ordering the ASOIAF books from Amazon … and then moving them from my āShopping Cartā to āSave for Later.ā I canāt seem to pull the trigger. A small part of my reluctance is that I fear Iāll be let down by the 4th and 5th books.
The bigger part is that Iām afraid Iāll really like the books, and then when I reach the end of the fifth book Iāll join the masses of frustrated readers waiting for the next book that never comes.
By the way… is it true that the TWOW sample chapters like āMercyā pre-released by GRRM were actually written many years ago? Is there any indication heās made any headway in recent years?
Uh oh. The Lord of Light is f*cking with me again. A simple one-sentence reply just vanished into Alphabet Heaven.
Time to burn some candles. šÆšÆšÆ
Wish I had a fireplace and some logs so I could look into the flames and see what the f*ck he wants from me.
Ten Bears,
About feast and dance. I think you just need to give it your own chance. Some like it some don’t. The boiled leather version is amazing and better then reading them seperated. When it comes to character building, world building and decipher peohecies. Those 2 books are amazing. Only thing that’s less than the previous 3 is the action. I think you’re good because you’re a character driven person.
As for frustrating. That’s only something you yourself can answer. Sometimes Im frustrated with it. Sometimes I’m just happy I have read already those 5 books.
As for those chapters were suppose to be in dance. But got delayed to winds. He has written them a while back. He won’t publish anymore chapters because of 2 reasons. It would reveal plottwists and 2. As he stated than he could just put his whole book online everytime he writes a chapter. So I understand that he waits with publishing new chapters online.
They way George talks I feel he is already pretty far. But not as far as he hopes. I think he is around 70% ca. But the books will not be published before he have written 20% of dreams.
If I were you I would wait until you want to read something and having the time. The books are amazing read. And even if you just could join the theory party is already amazing.
kevin1989,
I think a problem with this is the audience needs to care in order to invest in this storyline and that takes screentime, beyond a one-minute explanation scene. When the show rushes something, it doesn’t go well.
Theon’s shared history with Sansa and betrayal of the Starks is a big reason why he’s so disturbed by Ramsay’s abuse of her. Additionally, Sansa ends up being, in the show, the one to bring Theon out of Reek. They’d need to develop Jeyne enough to be somebody who the audience should care about (whereas with Sansa, we’ve seen her suffering for seasons onscreen), show why Theon cares about her (we know the guilt Theon feels about betraying Robb and razing Winterfell, things we witnessed on screen rather than exposited), and how she’d start bringing Theon back again (whereas in the show, Sansa’s rage over what Theon apparently did to Bran and Rickon and the relationship Theon had with them kickstarts this). The bond between Theon-Jeyne would need to be developed and it would take quite a bit of time to reach that point. Plus, they’d also have to devote further screentime to Sansa’s story in the Vale.
I don’t think they’d have enough time to do that and especially with the pacing of seasons 1-4.
This is why I think Sansa as streamlined into Jeyne’s story with Reek/Theon.
Yes!
And I await Ten Bear’s adapted version of the resurrection prayer to the Lord of Light to try and implore him that I am true.
And speaking of which…
LOL
Best wishes to you, Ten Bears, that the Jo Malone candles will tether your comments to this thread and not shoot them out into the ether š
Thanks for this!!
Enharmony1625,
I agree with this as a reason why they didn’t push for Jon’s claim (Jon becoming king after killing Dany, no matter the lives it saved or the democide she did to a surrendered King’s Landing, would look really bad, especially with Westerosi views on queenslaying) and there needed to be a compromise to prevent another war with Dany’s supporters.
But it kind of does feel weird they mention neither Dany’s a) democide or her b) adapted blood moves the wheels of history! (ala Dwight Schrute) speech in which she declares world domination by destruction and “liberation” (although, only Arya and Tyrion may have understood that speech — but they’re present at this council). And it sort of does feel like Jon’s lineage slipped the minds of Tyrion/Sam/Sansa/Arya/and Bran altogether because they never mention it (even amongst themselves) again, which feels especially odd because when Tyrion was urging Jon to kill Dany, he talked about Jon being the “rightful heir” to the Iron Throne.
But I agree Jon shouldn’t and wouldn’t have gotten the throne after killing Dany and it’d be unwise to push if they wanted to prioritize peace (there’s also the fact that Jon didn’t want his claim to be pushed). Still, that council session feels odd. Nobody spoke up for the guy with whom they experienced the horror and shock as Dany decimated a city after surrender (Davos, Tyrion), who had been urged to assassinate Dany to stop her from killing and destroying more (Tyrion), or who they felt would be a better ruler (Sam, Sansa).
I agree that the focus was on saving Jon’s life but nobody even spoke up for the context in which he killed Daenerys, even though those people were present.
Ten Bears,
Personally, I’m not overly bothered by how Jon’s parentage was resolved, except for the omission of Arya and Sansa’s reaction to it, as you pointed out earlier. I think that was a mistake on the part of D&D and the director. Sure, we’ve heard the story and seen the reveal/reaction from other characters, but this was a lie that the girls’ father told and was a large part of why their mother resented Jon. That reveal and reaction could have led to some amazing character moments between Arya, Sansa and Jon as they come to terms with this revelation. So yeah.. I’m still sore that they didn’t bother showing that.
Other than that though, I think the significance of Jon’s parentage lies primarily in how it affected his entire arc and character. It was the source of a lot of inner turmoil within himself rather than being some big external payoff. As for other characters (besides his family of course), I’m not really sure that they would care that much, so I can accept that revelation not being a big thing.
Hey, Kevin! I missed this message originally but can you explain what do you mean here? Do you mean picking the development of the HBO prequels over writing the books?
Adrianacandle,
Absolutely. Very good points. It feels like there’s a missing scene or two that could have addressed this. I mean.. we’re sort of left here filling in huge blanks to explain this. And yes, audiences always have to fill in blanks to some extent, but the amount we have to fill in for the final season is a bit much. When you sit down and do the work, I think we can piece together things rather convincingly because all the clues are there, but there are some gaps that I feel really needed to be communicated to the viewers.
Enharmony1625,
Yeah, that’s another gripe I have with season 8 — which is unfortunate! Because I really loved how we got to season 8. There are some plot points I can’t puzzle out for myself but I think I may leave those for a different thread since we’ve been going at it here for a while now and my computer is starting to pant and wheeze when loading this thread ;D But I do agree with you! (That forum sounds like such a nice, nice idea….)
Personally, I wish Jon’s parentage had been more impactful beyond it being used as a reason to drive Dany to the brink — it was such a huge revelation and the circumstances surrounding it were such integral parts to Jon’s identity. I was convinced it was a reason why Melisandre saw something in Jon Snow, that it was connected to the AA/TPTWP prophecies, and maybe the combining of these two bloodlines (Stark/Targaryen) were why Jon was needed in the fight against Long Night v. 2 (beyond being the one to unite the people against the NK). But, at the same time, the show isn’t so big on the magic aspects of the story as the books are.
This isn’t to say Jon had to kill the Night King, but I wish he had a greater role in the ultimate battle and his parentage amounted to more than a reason to drive Dany nuts.
But that’s just me š Maybe the only impact this giant secret is meant to have on the narrative and this world’s events are to help push Dany to her breaking point which, to me, feels kind of anticlimactic. But YMMV!
Adrianacandle,
āI was convinced it was a reason why Melisandre saw something in Jon Snow, that it was connected to the AA/TPTWP prophecies, and maybe the combining of these two bloodlines (Stark/Targaryen) were why Jon was needed in the fight against Long Night v. 2 (beyond being the one to unite the people against the NK)…ā
____
Now that you brought this up: I was confused when Melisandre was at Castle Black and said (about Jon) something like: āStannis wasnāt the Prince that Was Promised but someone has to be.ā I thought to myself: āHuh? Why not Edd. Or Hot Pie?ā
Seriously, why would she suddenly zero in on Jon Snow?
For that matter, was her attempted lap dance/seduction of Jon with the excuse (I forget the wording) that copulating with her would be a Lord of Light-sanctioned ritual that would unleash some power within him, a recognition that he had kingās blood or something?
The seduction & speech she tried (unsuccessfully) to use on Jon was similar to the routine she (successfully) used on Gendry* to leech his kingās blood.
Were we to conclude that Mel somehow intuited Jonās royal lineage? (Mel never really followed up on that.)
* P.S. I AM thankful that Melās reunion with Arya in S8e3 wasnāt bitter, and quickly turned into a Syrio-callback pep talk.
I was afraid for a minute that after Aryaās extraction of information from her interrogation of Gendry in the previous episode, she might skewer Mel rather than listen to her babble about purposes and prophecies. I was also half-expecting Sandor to interrupt and ask Arya: āShe on your list?ā
Ten Bears,
Are you thinking of this exchange?
This was right after Melisandre managed to bring somebody back from the dead for the first time — which is quite a feat, especially considering her crisis of faith post-Stannis defeat. However, Melisandre concludes it is her lord’s will that Jon be resurrected and she is only a conduit for his power. I think this is why she commits to Jon at this time, believing the Lord of Light brought Jon back for a reason.
Also, maybe Melisandre is like a bloodhound for some of that sweet king’s blood? š
I think this is better explained by the books. I don’t remember Melisandre trying to get sexy time with Jon in the books but I do remember her being drawn to Jon, seeing him in her fires, and sensing power in him:
And there’s this:
—-
I was afraid of this too! I think Melisandre was on Arya’s list at some point for taking Gendry? Was she phased off of Arya’s list?
Adrianacandle,
āThis isnāt to say Jon had to kill the Night King, but I wish he had a greater role in the ultimate battle and his parentage amounted to more than a reason to drive Dany nuts.
But thatās just me š Maybe the only impact this giant secret is meant to have on the narrative and this worldās events are to help push Dany to her breaking point which, to me, feels kind of anticlimactic. But YMMV!ā
_____
Itās not just you. I thought that there were enough reasons to drive Dany nuts without the parentage reveal, between the frosty reception she got from the ingrates in the North, the over-the-top lovefest between Tormund & Co. and Jon, Sansaās scheming, Varysās (and Tyrionās) betrayal, Missandeiās murder, and people blaming her for Jonās unprompted decision to surrender the Northās sovereignty.
Then again, I admit I was disappointed there wasnāt an Arya-Dany mutual admiration scene, and some acknowledgement of Danyās heroics in rescuing the Snow Patrol at the Frozen Lake. (I mean, whatever happened to āWe find our true friends on the battlefieldā? Why was everyone so snippy and suspicious towards Dany – who after all had come to save the people from AotD, not conquer them?)
Adrianacandle,
āAre you thinking of this exchange?
Davos: Will you stay here at Castle Black?
Melisandre: I will do as Jon Snow commands.
Davos: You serve Jon Snow now?
Melisandre: Heās the prince that was promised.ā
_____
That one too! Thatās even better!
I was thinking of another one… maybe Mel to Davos(?) Iāll have to look for it.
Iām not sure how Mel got to āJon is the PTWPā; and then wound up (in S7e1? with Dany) with that equivocation āyou both have a role to play.ā
Ten Bears,
Yeah, and the realization that Westeros is not Essos, that they wouldn’t be rising up for her as the slaves did but personally, I think the build-up to Dany’s snapping point needed to be far, far more gradual and motivated. Dany’s faced some dire stuff before (losing Drogo, Rhaego, the deterioration of her khalasar) and didn’t go off on an entire civilian populace.
And I thought there were contrivances here too:
*While Dany does receive a toast and applause at the feast, I felt it was fairly contrived that Dany didn’t socialize with Missandei and Grey Worm. They were right there, at her side. Like the wildlings with Jon, they’ve been to hell and back with Dany and have deep regard and admiration for her while the wildlings have deep regard and admiration for Jon based on their hell-and-back experiences. But, sadly for Dany, neither Missandei or Grey Worm are drunk hypers like Tormund “King of Meade” Giantsbane.
I think the purpose of this scene was to play on Dany’s dissatisfaction with the reception she received in Westeros — they’re not crying out for her as they did in Essos. But it felt contrived.
*I’m not sure if the North as a whole blamed Dany (but Sansa seemed to), they seemed to be pretty pissed at Jon too and ungrateful to Dany when she’s come to help make sure they all live another day.
But they kind of retconned a few scenes here (re:Jon bending the knee, Dany coming North) because it was not what we saw in 706. While I do think part of the reason Jon knelt was because he thought Dany would be good for the North and Westeros, per his 706 conversation with Dany/801 conversation with Sansa, Jon was totally willing. No strings at that point.
And in Dany’s scene with Sansa, she says she agreed to help fight “Jon’s war” (Jon’s war?) because of her love for him but that’s not what happened in 706 either. Dany agreed after seeing for herself that the Night King was real and after he just shot her dragon down.
*Why did everyone except for Jon and Dany discuss marriage? Even with Jon’s incest issues, marriage is the way to join claims and prevent a claimant war. Nobody could press their claims against each other. I doubt the North would be over the moon about it, I don’t think they’d be feeling great about Jon either, but it’d solve the claimant problem at least.
I think much of this was to drive the Dany Madness plot, really.
But I’m not so sure the North would love hearing about the heroics about Dany rescuing Jon’s group during the wight hunt or they’d realize how the Night King got his dragon, which may lead to greater hostility toward both Jon and Dany before the war. And the reasons why they were compelled to go on the wight hunt would perhaps be revealed (Dany needing a truce with Cersei first, a wight being needed to convince Dany and Cersei this is real).
Yeah. Yeah!! While I think the North needs time to get to know Dany and Dany needs to show them she’s more than executions-by-fire, I’m not sure it makes sense for them to continue their hostility to that extent. But even Dany’s attitude seemed to change from 706’s “I hope I deserve it” and “I’ve not come to conquer the North. I’m coming to save the North,” to an expectation for immediate recompense from the North, allowing little time for rest and recuperation, and an expectation of immediate approval from the people.
And I think it was all to expedite the Mad Queen Dany plot.
But god, I wanted a Dany-Arya scene.
Ten Bears,
I think the following quotes are the explanations from the show? The Red Priestesses of Volantis seem to believe Dany is the chosen one while Melisandre seems to think it’s Jon:
And her proclamation to Davos that Jon is TPTWP and later, maybe upon getting together with her fellow priestesses, comes to decide it is Jon and Dany both.
Sidenote: I love Carice van Houten as Melisandre, I can’t think of anyone more perfect for the role. Just how she used her voice seemed to exude reverence and power.
True, but do we really need to care for Jeyne? Or for Theon? I mean in the books it was not that I really cared about Jeyne as a character, but I cared how Theon perceived it. And what makes him become Theon again, and make the choice of jumping of the castle walls. And if they would have made it more closer to the books, the wedding would have been in season 6, meaning that in season 5 we could get a small introduction to Jeyne before she ships of to the north. They could have made it work, but it would have taken a bit more creativity.
As said above, the books made it work. The show could have made it work too. If they made season 5 and 6 into 3 seasons and more close to the books, there would have been enough time developing these storylines. We could have seen Jeyne first in KL being checked out by Cersei. And arriving in the north later in season 5, having the wedding at the beginning of 6. Implement some scenes how Theon and Jeyne played in the snow when they were young, and that she had always had a crush on him, or something. They could make it work if they decided to give it 3 seasons for those 2 books instead of 2.
The fans wanted more seasons, so having 1/2 or 1 season more for Feast and Dance. And having 1/2 or 1 season more for the reaming 2 books. Could have given the show to a 84/100 episode show. And with closer to the books would also have been less constrained on the crew and cast, with more character moments and less battle.
I understand why they did what they did, I just think that they could have made it work, D&D are brilliant writers, and they showed us with season 3 and 4 that they are amazing with implementing new storylines.
And Season 5 wouldn’t even be that much storylines, compared to season 2 who had more. But later on that. I need to go to work.
kevin1989,
Season 2 had 11 storylines (A storyline can be just 3 episodes, like Theon’s little storyline in the Iron Islands), if they did season 5 more closer to the books it would have been the same, 11 Storylines in a season.
I’m sorry, Kevin. I’m struggling to see where they’d find the additional screentime to do this within 10 hours.
A Dance With Dragons and A Feast for Crows were larger/more complex books than A Clash of Kings. These narratives required more time to show the same amount of development as the stories had become longer and more involved. Season 5 had to adapt not only A Dance With Dragons, it also had to adapt stories from A Feast for Crows as well (Arya’s House of Black and White story, for instance). And season 5 was already suffering from quite a bit of Adaptation Distillation as it was. I’m struggling to see where they’d find even more time when the existing stories in season 5 were already so compressed down from the books (which is why I think they merged Sansa and Theon into one).
I didn’t like Sansa’s season 5 storyline or that she was back at the mercy of another sadist who had leveled up the abuse factor to rape. But I see why they did it.
kevin1989,
Yes, I think we do because caring about characters and their relationships are needed for investment and engagement in a story — or there’s lack of interest and the story flops. A rushed storyline does not work well, as we’ve seen. I think it’d be important to see what motivates Theon’s perceptions and what brings him out of Reek and to do that, Jeyne needs to be somewhat developed so we can understand the relationship between her and Theon and how it brings about these outcomes.
But the books aren’t limited to 10 hours per season. They have far more freedom in this case.
For whatever reason, Game of Thrones was limited to 73 episodes (I’m not sure why it was this number exactly or why we didn’t get a final two seasons with 10 episodes each). The show could have done so many things if time wasn’t an issue but it was. The cast and crew seem to have been ready to finish after 10 years and 8 seasons, which I think is reasonable, so I don’t think 3 additional seasons for seasons 5 and 6 would have been feasible. In an ideal world, yes, but I don’t think this would have been feasible for those working on a show as intense as this. It seems they were ready to leave at this point. After 10 years, I think I’d be ready to leave too and want to try the next thing.
I would have loved more seasons and GRRM has said this too but this wasn’t up to fans, it’s up to the people involved with the show and it’s already been 10 years working on an incredibly intense show like this. No matter what, if there are more episodes, the cast and crew would have to work on more episodes and they’d still have to be on location, away from home, unable to participate in other opportunities, etc.
The thing is that when I started actively following this site during the hiatus before S6, the site was about loving the show itself and it was pretty much common here to not praise books 4 and 5. At least if my memory serves me right. Anyone who was too negatively aimed towards the show was downtalked and dismissed as a troll. That was the site I used to love. I know 95% of what I read now here is negatively comparing the show to books 4 and 5. Mau and Young Dragon are pretty much the only members here I’m able to deem as positive GoT fans.
Kevin1989,
“I loved that chapter.”
You mean the released Alayne chapter of WoW? It was a very nice chapter, happy, but around the middle it took a bad turn and ended in an ominous place, and I thought, oh no! No! No!
Lord Parramandas,
I guess if you like the way the show ended, and don’t like the last two books, there isn’t really a lot to talk about any more. So a lot of posters have left for a while. The story is over until the spin offs come out, and then they will be back. I hated S7 and S8, but I still consider myself a fan of the show, and a fan of GOT because I love the books too, and I still have hope that he will finish them. I think I’m more positive than the people who don’t think they will ever come out.
A lot has happened on the show since before season 6, which I would assume has changed some peopleās opinions on the show. Seasons 7 and 8 were generally not as well received as the previous 6 seasons.
Can you clarify exactly what you mean though? Youāre upset that people liked books 4 and 5? And you think this makes them lesser fans of the show in some way? Of all the people that post here, you personally only think two of them are āpositive GoT fansā?
I remember you did this previously too. You went out of your way to tell everyone that Dee was the only positive GoT fan here. You seem to have a habit of insulting people on this site.
kevin1989,
āTrue, but do we really need to care for Jeyne? Or for Theon? I mean in the books it was not that I really cared about Jeyne as a character, but I cared how Theon perceived it. And what makes him become Theon again, and make the choice of jumping off the castle walls.ā
***
āI understand why they did what they did, I just think that they could have made it work, D&D are brilliant writers, and they showed us with season 3 and 4 that they are amazing with implementing new storylines.ā
________
Thatās my feeling as well:
ā¢ The show proved they could introduce a sympathetic character weād care about, even if she were given minimal screen time.
Example: Karsi.
In less than half an episode and maybe five or ten minutes of screen time, I got to caring about her character and worrying about whatād happen to her after she made her choice to stay behind while sending her children ahead in the boats. I was rooting for her all the way when she joined Jon, Tormund & Co. and gallantly fought the swarming zombies. I was freaked out along with her when she encountered those weird-as-f*ck zombie kids. I was gutted when she let them attack her (after her maternal instincts apparently prevented her from hacking them down.)
Watching Karsiās bloodied blue-eyed corpse sit up as The Talented Mr. K raised his arms, reanimating all the slaughtered wildlings, added emotional heft to that final scene – more so than the distraught look on Jon Snowās face.
The one-off character of Cersei (and S5 Best Guest Actress winner Birgitte H-S) made an indelible impression in just a few minutes in a single episode.
I donāt see any reason why the showrunners couldnāt (re-)introduce Jeyne Poole in S5. With the right actress and a few brief scenes the audience would be invested in her character.
In my view (and as weāve discussed already), āstreamliningā the showās storylines by shoehorning Sansa into book! Jeyneās Ramsay/WF plot caused more headaches than it was worth, e.g., regression of Sansaās character development, ruining her stellar moment in S4e8, and screwing up the complex geographical locations of characters and chronology of events set up in the books.
How much trouble would it have been to introduce a sympathetic Jeyne Poole that the audience could care about, and thereby avoid using Sansa as a crash test dummy? (Moreover, the narrative predicate for the shoehorning – LFās Bolton marriage āplanā – made little sense. It made LF look stupid for proposing it, and it made Sansa look stupid for agreeing to it: A double whammy.)
ā¢ As I understand it, in the books Jeyne functioned as sort of an accessory to Theonās story – a catalyst for Theonās de-Reekification.
As you pointed out, the books didnāt try to make you care for Jeyneās character and ordeal as much as how Theon preceived them.
Iām one of the viewers who were not thrilled with the choice to brutalize and humiliate Sansa as a device for Theonās ātransformationā (e.g., the rape scene focusing on Theonās face and Theonās reactions, and highlighting Theonās meth-addict-like sweating and twitching).
I also felt that Theon deciding to save a āminorā character like Jeyne Poole and jump off the battlements with her, would’ve been more resonant (and heroic) than Sansa Stark as the rescued victim. (I thought that in the books, the fact that Jeyne was a relative nobody that nobody cared about made Theonās actions more courageous and self-sacrificing.
(to be cont; sorry, canāt edit this. š¤¢)
Lord Parramandas,
But my Lord! Respectfully, I think you may be laboring under a misconception. Most commenters are still uniformly positive about the show and the books.
Just because we discuss some of the ambiguities and misfires, e.g., the byproducts of the race to the finish line, doesnāt detract from everything we like about the show.
Ten Bears,
Cont. from above:
Instead of continuing to go off on my Sansa/Jeyne tangent, Iāll just close with my (redundant) critique about show! Reek>Theon…
That coward Theon brutally murdered my beloved sweet Myrandah!
š
I would really consider her more BITTERSWEET than sweet š
Lord Parramandas,
I myself am actually very positive about season 8. There was a lot to love about it, with many great moments, and I’ve been a pretty big defender of it. Like everyone else here though, I do have some gripes because I do very much think it was rushed. At the root of some of these frustrations is the fact that several storylines and characters lacked the proper emotional resolution. There are few stories out there that I know of where fans get as attached and emotionally invested in characters as this one, so it’s frustrating when we don’t get to see the resolutions of these characters play out.
That being said, season 8 also has some of my favourite moments in it of all seasons. (e.g. Arya escaping King’s Landing, Brienne being knighted). I know it’s rather cliche to say this, but it’s really a testament to the story and the show that we care that much to continue discussing it and wanting more.
Lord Parramandas,
Huh? There is no place for us to just discuss the books. No one here is saying they are better than the show. Just discussing the books in relation to the show. Or maybe I am misreading you. Explain pls.
Jenny,
No, its the chocolate price!!!!
Yeah that last episode sure made that theory a great waste of time. Heck it was part of the book early on, the idea of it being possible, then we find out it really is and then – john is sent away. There had to be a way of making that mean something (sorta like the whole resurrection scene – no one mentioned it ever again.)
Lord Parramandas,
I donāt mind people liking the books 4 and 5. I hated them myself, but Iām aware Iām in the minority. What I donāt understand, however, is peopleās insistence that the show would have somehow been better if they remained more faithful to those books. I mean, thereās a reason Martin is having such a hard time finishing his story. His story became too big and convoluted that he ended up writing himself into a corner that itās taking him more than 8 years to write himself out of. D&D wisely avoided this by condensing their story down to focus more on the already established characters.
This is exactly what’s becoming a huge turnoff for me on this page. The sudden defense of these two books and I feel almost every comment is now deconstructing the show in unfavorable way. Exactly the opposite of what I used to love this site for.
Young Dragon,
And I don’t even “hate” books 4 and 5 in full sense… I just don’t care about them at all. I do enjoy books 1-3 and I find them still entertaining to re-read, especially book 3.
If your lord asks you to make posts disappear, then your lord evil!
Adrianacandle,
Of course I see also why they did it. But what I meant was, if they had made Feast and Dance into 2,5 seasons instead of 2 seasons. It could have worked. And the reason why it got 1 seasons was one reason, and it’s clear when you put season 4 next to season 5. The storytelling shifted from character-based to plot-based. And that means the ending of the season would also be different.
Put season 4 next to season 5. Make from both seasons from every character 2 lists. One their plot, their storyline and explain it as short as possible. And the next, make a list of all the character based moments.
What you see is that season 4 (and also the first 3 seasons), the storyline/plot-based, can be easily told per character in 1 or 2 sentences. But the character moments will take a lot of time to put them all to screen.
Now do the same with season 5. You see that most characters has a huge storyline, that takes 10+ sentences at least to explain what they did in that season. And the character moments were put to the minimum. All was set into motion for the plotbased storytelling.
If they had done the same kind of storytelling as season 1 till 4, season 5 would have had very different structure, that focused more on the character-development and less about the moving as fast as possible to place X. And the end points would be much different, it would end in a character-change moment. Not what season 5 did. Cersei went from in power, to powerless in power at the end of the season again. No character development when it comes to who Cersei is. She ends where she began the series. Same as Tyrion. They moves fast through his character development. If they did focus on the character-development. Cersei and Jaime would have ended with their feast ending. Cersei powerless imprisoned, asking for help for Jaime who declines it. Jon’s storyline would be about his lord commander and how far he would go to safe the wildlings and how the watch feel about Jon saving them, which shows Jon how he is as a leader, which could have a character-based ending that mirrors Dany, how far will you go to save a group of people/Having peace. While Stannis has his own agenda. Leaving season 5 with Stannis last seen at the wall. And where we see him take Deepwood motte in the season 6 season premier. Jon’s dead would be placed in season 6 final not 5. Season 6 could have been about how those decisions effected Jon and we even could get the Hardhome episode that it lead to that, like season 4 lead to the mutineers and the battle at the wall. And season 5 and 6 would mirror season 3 and 4. Season 3 shows the events that lead to the results in season 4. With season 5 both needed to be in one season. Same with Dany, her season 5 arc should have been: How far would I lose my ideals for peace in Meereen, with her ultimate sacrafice marrying Hizdahr. A big character change, which end the season not on a big plot-based ending but on a big character-based ending. (which season 1 till 4 always focussed about, how to end the character story, not the plot-story). Season 6 could be the result of that, what does that peace bring her? Does it really bring peace? And Tyrion season 5 could have been about, starting with losing himself when arriving in Pentos, drunk, useless. To finding his sense of playing the game again. But with a darker twist. He pushed Aegon to Westeros, where in the end he suffers the shipwreck. where in season 6 he could be started with becoming a slave. And ending with him freeing himself (not getting freed but his own wits) and maybe the battle of fire.
And those changes would already result into the space that was needed to give Dorne, Iron Island, Aegon, Brienne etc their screentime of 20/30 minutes per storyline.
They already showed with season 3 and 4 that you can put one big story into 2 seasons, and be honest, season 3 final was not huge on big moments. So why would season 5 final need all those big moments, when it could be like season 3 characterdriven and a big set-up for the crashing down of events in the 6th season. And season 3 didn’t have 2/3 big moments per character, Cat had the red Wedding. Arya had 2, the Sandor/Beric fight and the RW(aftermath), rest was character based. Tyrion had just one, his marriage to Sansa, rest was big character moments like his scenes with Tywin. So why did season 5 have to be, Tyrion needs to get captured, Stoneman, getting captured by slavers, getting sold, getting freed, getting the position of ruler of Meereen in Dany’s absent. All in one season. Instead of just focus on 2/3 events and having a lot of character development circling around those events. It was overkill on plot season 5, and underkill (right word?) with character development.
And I understand D&D motives with season 5, I just don’t agree with the plotbased storytelling they did there. Which resulted in a rippling effect that resulted into what season 8 became.
Adrianacandle,
They made us care for Karsi in just 1 scene, they could have made us care for Jeyne in one scene. They could give us 1 or 2 convincing scenes and we would care. Let Sansa at the same time also have 1 scene where she talks about her best friend in Winterfell Jeyne, and it would be clear to the fans. Even change her name to Jeyne Cassel and made a story that it was the granddaughter of Rodrik Cassel who people would remember from the first 2 seasons.
And I didn’t say 3 addition seasons for season 5 and 6. I said 5/10 episodes. So 1/2 to 1 season extra. Depends on the story. And having a fully fleshed 10 episode season 7 and 8. Which I think if they sticked closer to what I meant, Got would have ended with 80/85 episodes. with not more battles, but with less battle and more character moments. Mean less time filming.
And what made it so hard on the crew and cast, and made it 10 years for 8 seasons instead of 8 years for 8 seasons. Was that they did every season a big battle. That have to be bigger than the season before. Having 2 people talking like they did with the first 4 seasons, would be faster shot and produced and put less restrain on the actors and crew.
And about on location. look at the first seasons where they could film a whole episode in 14 days tops because of the character-based storytelling. Look at season 6,7 and 8. Season 6 battle took 5 weeks of filming, only the battle that took half an episode. Season 8 battle took even longer. Almost as long as a character based season of filming. So I think a closer adaption would maybe even mean less filming time and more time for the actors for other projects.
Lord Parramandas,
Sorry to say, but I’m also a very positive GoT-show fan. Yes I prefer the books over the show, which had nothing to do with hating the show. I prefer the Harry Potter books over the movies. Still the movies I love to watch every 2 years.
I still praise the show to many people who I know who haven’t watched it, and I love every second of the show.
Do I wish some things would have gone more like the books? yes. Does that mean I hate the show version. No. I like both routes. When it comes to comparing those routes I prefer the book version, because it’s more filled and you read thoughts etc the upside of a book. But when I compare GoT to other tv-series of movies. It’s high on my list. It’s a breakthrough series. But that doesn’t mean I would have like to see some other parts of the books get to screen. And that’s only a compliment for D&D because that means I know that D&D could bring even those storylines to live with their magic.
So that I prefer the books over the show doesn’t correlate with me hating the show. I have almost every episode of GoT ranked with at least a 9+ rating. And when it comes to 5 stars (10 rating) it has the highest percentage of any show I ever watched.
But my question was more rhetorical meant. If something bad about the show is being said, it is being talked down, and you’re not a fan etc. But when the books are talked down, it’s ok, that’s how you should talk about the books. Many have stated they disliked Feast and Dance, and we all who loved those books respect those opinions. The same should be done when somebody loved those books, and even prefer them to the show version of those events.
kevin1989,
I like some of your ideas and thank-you so much for putting so much effort and thought into explaining your reasoning to me. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree and call a truce? I see your points with some stuff and agree to an extent (like with Karsi, but I also feel she performed a different function? She was a humanizing face for the Hardhome refugees in a one-episode Hardhome story and I think that’d be different from the function Jeyne would need to fulfill for motivation some significant character transformations for Reek) but I’m having trouble getting entirely on board.
Anyway, I appreciate the amount of work you put into your posts to convey your views to me š
kevin1989,
I used to like your comments during S8 when you seemed to be positively aimed to the show. But now all I see is some unfavorable deconstructing of the show in favor of books 4 and 5. Sorry to say but you now started to remind me of one (now luckily former) member of our LOST group who kept doing unfavorable LOST posts over and over again in past months, even encouraging people to be annoyed with the show and commenting under many appreciative comments in the deconstructing way. That was completely against what our LOST community is about and he didn’t only get on “unfavorable list” regarding us admins, but even the members couldn’t stand him anymore. And luckily, we managed to get rid of him recently. I obviously started to notice “criticism over appreciation” approach here on this site which is the main reason why I’m slipping away. Of course my final straw was when I took 4 hours to write my review for “The Long Night”, putting every bit of emotion in it, trying to capture all the good feelings I experienced… and then nobody seemed to give sh*t about my review as I was an outside with positive review for that episode while pretty much everyone else was busy unfavorably deconstructing about the episode.
True, but at the same that in the moment itself it was a happy moment. For a moment Alayne was happy, and was the one that control the situation.
Ten Bears,
Agree. With my little project I already think now how I would do Jeyne’s part, without even being there. Still busy with Dorne. Want to do the small stories first. And to tell my little projects probably takes a long time. Because I will read the books again now. I’m done with watching TV, I want to read again.
Agree, you should read Theon’s winds chapter. How he thinks of himself for saving Jeyne. He knew Ramsay would find him and capture him, but he is happy he saved Jeyne.
Ten Bears,
Agree, same with my little project. That has nothing to do with “I dislike GRRM version, mine is better”, no it’s more, I have those images for years in my head, how I see those scenes, dialogues I think of myself without them being in the books, and it drives me insane sometimes. I want to get it out and I always had the dream (that is being crushed by health issues) of doing something with film-making. So it’s more a hobby kind of way, to give myself some peace, and I would love to share it once finished. To show a bit who I am, and what keeps me busy. And I know here I can show it without feeling “Strange”. So my dream can be a hobby now.
First warning mr Derp, With 3 warnings right to the wall. With your fourth, to the others with you.
Just kidding of course.
Enharmony1625,
Agree with you. And Thormund was amazing, every scene with him. Sandor. Arya. And I loved Dany, Emilia was brilliant.
Young Dragon,
That’s not the reason why he can’t finish the books. As many already stated, he probably have the whole roadmap already in his head and maybe on paper. But he can’t get it on paper because he has too many projects and can’t zone into Westeros. It’s even this article that he states that.
As for the stating this could have been better, no that’s not what I said, and what other say, they say that maybe it could have been better. And I already stated why I do my project. has nothing to do with D&D but with myself.
And as for critique. There’s nothing wrong with critique. D&D can handle it, so there’s nothing wrong with it. And stating “I wish” is not bashing D&D, it’s just as it states a wish.
The last straw implies that you’re done with this site yet you’re still here commenting, so it apparently wasn’t really the last straw.
I guess all that’s left is to insult the people on this site now?
Is the lord of light sending wrong signals again?
Adrianacandle,
I just like discussing, and especially with many here, the respectable discussions we have is just amazing. And it keeps watchers alive.
And you know I talk to much, Sandor wouldn’t love me š
Lord Parramandas,
Oh Iām still positively about the show. As I stated above, I love season 8. And I still love season 5 till 8. I love all the seasons. And even before I choose the books over the shows. But thatās just because books have something for them that shows cannot provide. And as stated about, itās not deconstruction of season 5 till 8. I just would like to know how D&D version of some events they skipped would have seen on screen. Because I think D&D could have pulled it off, they are one of the most brilliant writers out there when it comes to TV and maybe later, movies. So why wouldnāt I want know how their version would have been if they sticked closer to the books. And I like thinking of it, how things that were skipped, how they would have been on screen. And I also know that itās easier for us to think off when we could think of the most brilliant way to put some things on screen with āWhat if they did it that wayā, when they are on heavy deadlines with thinking of storylines for the season, delivering scripts, getting locations etc in the timeframe they got and of course delivering the show for a broader audience, which comes with problems with writing compare to the freedom they had in season 1.
And I would never encourage people to talk bad about the show. As I stated last week, I was happy you were back because you always put a positive turn on the show.
And criticism doesnāt mean we donāt have appreciation. I for once have a lot of appreciation. And the criticism you can take with a bit of salt, because itās just me wishing that those storylines were in and wished they had made it work.
I loved the long night, and if I remember I gave a comment about it that I liked it. And else what you could do is make an account in the forum so we can all read it. Or make a Google drive or some account and put your reviews in word documents and share the link of those reviews. Or maybe a free online website where you can put one for every episode. Because I would love to read them.
kevin1989,
I do have a forum account. THat’s where I kept posting my reviews and linking them to WotW posts, only that I realized pretty mucn nobody gave sh*t about them anymore. And actually, I was wrong up there. It took me in total of 7 hours to write the review for Long Night. 4 hours was the time I took to finish it at night, writing it till 4 am in the morning. But the thing is, I had such plans for the last 6 reviews to wrap up my GoT journey as Lord Parramandas, but never got to finish them as this site literally became a straight turn-off for me.
http://forum.watchersonthewall.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=337
Lord Parramandas,
I will surely read it there. And then I finally have use for the forum short noticed. I’m excited to read it.
And I hope you don’t mind, but when I read your comments I had a feeling, you’re a bit afraid of not being heard by other’s when it comes to your opinion and are a bit insecure about it. I don’t know if I’m right with that? But that’s how it comes over on me. (And I know personally how that feels, and I recognize something how I was back then in your comments.)
kevin1989,
When I started actively following this site during 2015/2016, it was a safe haven for me. Almost everything I wished the GoT fandom to be. At that point, GoT Wiki was already ruined by The Dragon Demands and turned into his personal hate blog. Westeros org was a hateful and toxic mess, aimed to bash the show to endless extent after S5… but WotW was everything else. A very positively aimed show, full of appreciation and hype and such. GoT Wiki and Westeros org were looked down at from here and I finally felt being in like-minded fandom. I spent every day tracking this page for new posts, reading positive comments and getting hyped for S6. (continuing on next thread)
kevin1989,
(Continuing upper comment)
And when S6 aired, I started to love this site even more. S6 is my favorite season and the season that truly gives me by far the most special feelings when it comes to GoT. So during original air, I always watched an episode on Monday and then went to write a review here. First they were short, but then I got inspired to write more and more and for last two S6 episodes (which are two of my favorite episodes, along with Long Night), I truly put much emotion in those reviews, all the enthusiasm and such. And every positive feedback I got on any of those reviews meant a lot to me and I felt I “belong” in this fandom. Up till the end of S6, this page was a safe haven and I was more into GoT than ever before, so hyped for everything to come and for more mutual moments on this page.
kevin1989,
(Continuing upper comment)
But very quickly after S6 ended… poof. The positivity and enthusiasm from members here was pretty much slipping away. During S7’s air, I started to avoid “book readers recap” due to increasing toxicity and stayed only on unsullied recap. I started to get a feeling that I’m an outsider here… that nobody remembers me, despite all the feedback I got on my reviews a year before. So I kind of still sticked to this fandom but the enthusiasm was slipping away. And I couldn’t help but notice more and more the difference regarding positivity and appreciation between here and the LOST community where I’m admin…. and it was big, really big. When coming to this site, I was now feeling dread instead of hype… dread of what kind of rants and negativity I will read because it was more and more present here. When S7 ended, I was already ready to give up on this page.
kevin1989,
(Continuing upper comment)
So then there was this long wait before S8 and GoT was kind of sidelined in my case. Until late 2018 came and I was ready for a rewatch. And again, WotW was the only site that was not hateful in my mind so I returned here. My last sanctuary of some sort of positivity regarding the show. And I was ready to complete my journey as Lord Parramandas… only to realize yet again nobody gives a sh*t about my comments or reviews here. I guess because I was always charged with positivity while most members focused on criticising the show. Any time I watched an episode, I commented on Unsullied thread in appreciative and enthusiastic way while I would eventually write my review on forum thread. The thing is that I felt pretty much invisible here… back during S6, I felt part of the fandom. This time I felt like a ghost and an outsider. And after “Long Night” aired, this site went massively downhill for me… so downhill that I actually blocked it in website for a while. Comments that I only remembered from Westeros org or The Dragon Demands’s profile started to appear here. A site that I used to love became pretty much a resemblance of GoT pages I despised.
Lord Parramandas,
S06 was also in my top 3. Perfect season. And winds remains my favorite episode of the show. One of the best ever produced on tv.
And this site can still be a safe haven but that means that also the way the comments are done are different, the show is over for almost 5 months, that means that talking about the show itself is almost non-excised anymore. Meaning that we have the prequels, which is still a big if. And of course the books. Tron is very busy with reading the books and shares with lots of enthusiasm his journey. Which I personally like very much when reading it. And to keep watchers alive talking about the books in inevitable. And that means talking about the changes, because that’s all we can talk about, how the books progress. Where the books are heading, the characters that are not in the show or dead in the show, what they will do. And we are very positive when talking about it. And yes we talk a lot of what is better in the books, and how things could have done different in the show. (which I even think D&D, and the actors are thinking about sometimes. We all have our view of it.) But at the same time we also share things that we think are done better in the show. It’s not meant negative or positive, just discussing. And we all love GoT else we wouldn’t be here.
But why I ask the question about being insecure I meant that as a helping question not attacking by the way. š
kevin1989,
(Continuing upper comment)
And when I wrapped up “The Long Night”, the episode that brought immense emotional reaction out of me, all enthusiastic to share my enjoyment with everybody here… and I come here and majority is criticising and negatively talking about it. And being an admin of a community where appreciation and positivity are truly outstanding, this was immensely discouraging for me to continue writing my reviews. Seeing people label those positively aimed ones “show apologists” (something that is punishable with instant ban in our LOST community), I was like “What am I still doing here?”. And still, I completed my Long Night review and tried to share it on numerous posts… and yet it was like I was invisible. The first and for long time only comment I get on the forum is “THe piano was incredibly tedious for me”. Honestly, this didn’t even feel like a fandom to me anymore… just a group of people who watch the show and get displeased by it on every step. So unlike how I imagined fandom, And thus in span of 3 years, once one of my favorite fansites became a site I dread to visit as it always ends up in me being frustrated and almost dealing with anxiety due to loving GoT.
(End of rant)
Lord Parramandas,
We are all outsiders here that together share the love for the story. Be it the books, show or both. And the only thing you can do is make yourself known, but at the same time respect the others who may not share the same opinion.
And the hate is not really hate. We have some critic on the show, but it all comes from that we all love the show so much. We don’t say the show is bad, at least I don’t. I have things that I wish they did from the books, and yes I believe that that would have made it better, when D&D could have had their time (which I think they didn’t because they had a big deadlines, and did work a lot), and that’s only because I think D&D are excellent writers, but I understand all the things D&D need to work with that are all factors that didn’t make that possible, time, HBO having their demands, actors, schedule, only 10 episodes and not more, budget etc. So I still appreciate the show. But I also like to think about what if. If it’s only for my own self, to get things out of my head. As I said above, for years I see images how many scenes and storylines would have been on screen, which for me the only way to give that chaos a rest is put it for once on paper, so it’s out of my head. And once that’s done I would like too share that. And I only want to share that here, because I also feel this as a GoT-Safe haven, who I hope would enjoy it. (with the notion that I don’t do this because I want to attack D&D just for myself)
You had to use the āBā word, didnāt you. š¤¢
Lord Parramandas,
ā…The first and for long time only comment I get on the forum is āTHe piano was incredibly tedious for meā….
I didnāt even know you had posted review(s) on the Forum page. If youād given us a headās up in the Comments sections I wouldāve looked in the Forum section.
Most of us post comments under the recent articles, even if discussions sometimes veer off into sub-threads. (I donāt mind that at all.)
I wish Iād known about your reviews in the forum…š
Lord Parramandas,
Well there’s always 2 sides of the spectrum. And I also don’t like the “show apologized” argument that was used.
And I though the long night was great, I cried with Theon’s and Jorah’s death. It was beautifully done.
And that’s why I asks about if you’re insecure because I felt you’re anxiety in your posts, and how it effects you, and it’s not meant that because of a forum you will sit with depression in the end. I’ve dealt with it myself, and sometimes I’m away here for a couple of days, and off the grid even on phone with close friends and family because sometimes I feel it again and then I need my safe space at home.
And I would advice you, to work at it. Because Anxiety is not something that should be left alone and run it’s course and run you’re life. But that’s just my advice, which comes from a helping place. š
ā¢ Like I said earlier, I didnāt know you had posted reviews.
ā¢ In case you werenāt aware, lots of commenters were having difficulty completing their registrations for the forum section. I think Sue cleared that up recently.
I must be the only one who preferred Sansa’s storyline with the Boltons in the show over her boring storyline in The Vale in the books. Her storyline in the books was too much meandering for me with too many uninteresting characters. Apart from the wedding night, I liked Sansa’s scenes with Ramsay. It was at that point that I finally started liking her.
I agree!! š
As somebody who was told, “A 5,000 word essay, not 15,000,” in high school, you’re in good company š
Chilli,
āI must be the only one who preferred Sansaās storyline with the Boltons in the show over her boring storyline in The Vale in the books…ā
_______
I couldnāt say if youāre the only one.
After further reflection, Iām thinking they shouldāve shoehorned Myrandah into the Jeyne Poole role and had Theon-Reek rescue her. You know, maybe have Ramsayās psycho co-conspirator girlfriend transform into a repentant do-gooder who tries to help Reek and gets busted by Ramsay. Then Theon saves Myrandah, they jump off the WF wall together…
What can I tell you? I like Charlotte Hope. I was heartbroken when her character went splat! onto the courtyard ground. She shouldāve gone out in heroic fashion, like fighting side by side with Theon, firing her arrows arrows at WWs.
…Sigh…
Adrianacandle,
All those years ago when I was doing my secretarial training one of the tasks we had was to write a business report (obviously a model one not a real one). I was quietly confident that I’d done a good job though of course I kept that to myself. When I got the task back marked it had something like “sounds somewhat verbose” – that certainly brought me back to earth.
Lord Parramandas,
Lord P, some people have commented here that they haven’t been able to open forum accounts.
Chilli,
I don’t have a strong feeling one way or the other about Sansa’s storyline following her escape from Kings Landing with Bearish. I wasn’t particularly enamoured of the preview chapter about Sansa from TWoW – still that’s only one small part of how book Sansa’s future story will go. I certainly don’t buy that nobody in a continent the size of the fictional Westeros entertained the notion that Sansa might have gone to the Vale – after all her auntie lived there. Book Brienne’s meandering and unsuccessful (as yet in the books anyway) search for Sansa served as a vehicle to show the suffering of the “small folk” in the wars I guess. I thought it was possible that the alias Sansa used in the books as Baelish’s illegitimate daughter might prove an opportunity for her to learn “how the other half live”.
By the way, I didn’t really give a background to my reply to Arianascandle’s comment – it was in reply to the comment she made about writing a long essay.
Adrianacandle,
The bigger problem is. I talk that much also in real life. Drive my partner insane sometimes. Xd
Ten Bears,
That would have been amazing. Myranda was already established. And we already got scenes with them. Maybe their sex changed into dark behavior that Myranda didn’t like. Or ramsay made up a idea that myranda will become his wife. Under the notion people think she is Sansa. (Arya too young), so that she needs to dye her hair.
But it’s only speculation.
Dame of Mercia,
That sums up all my stories.
And it made me think off Kevin from the office.
https://media1.tenor.com/images/571e150448a002b57c7459247956be1c/tenor.gif?itemid=5865940
Yes! That was what has happened to me! š
Also, I’m always afraid I haven’t clarified things enough/provided enough context/do I need background? I should add this background/oooh and let’s add background of that too/but what about this?!?/adding it in just in case… And the word count in MS Word gets higher and higher…
Brevity and I are elusive to one another… But I have hope…
I’m also good company for that! š For example, when the finale first aired, I wouldn’t shut up for a month (or maybe three… or maybe I still talk about it a bit…), especially after bellinis and beer…. But my friends pay me back in Star Wars/Potter/Marvel/etc. tangents of their own!
So we’re kindred in this, I think š
Oh god, I just watched that episode…. XD;
You want a great season ending, go for “Succession”.
Chilli,
You’re not the only one. I also prefered Sansa’s TV story compared to her stagnating Vale arc. This may have sounded harsh but I honestly never gave sh*t about Jeyne as a character in the books. She’s just a plot device for Theon and I couldn’t care less about her. On TV, I love and I really mean love the scene between Sansa and Theon in episode 8 of S5 when she pushes him into revealing the fate of Bran and Rickon. For me, that was a huge moment in Sansa’s story. The moment that fully shaped her into the character she became in S6. I love how Sansa is directly connected to Theon getting free of Reek personality and how this story eventually brings her to Jon (their reunion scene being one of my favorite scenes ever). I love how Sansa’s presence in Winterfell also plants the seed of Ramsay eventually killing Roose, fully coming to play as she escapes. And I especially find it satisfying when the battle against the Boltons is won and she’s the one that indirectly kills Ramsay. For me, that’s way more interesting than her just being in the Vale, separated from main story.
Ten Bears,
I did link my forum thread to multiple posts here on WotW, especially for Long NIght review. But like 90% of my comments, they were overlooked.
Lord Parramandas,
Don’t say that. Don’t be so disappointed about it. The reason why your links and your posts were overlooked is because (most probably) every discussion in WotW had over 400 comments reviewing each episode -that’s a lot of reading! And as is expected, unfortunately, because it’s human nature, those that are negative attract more attention and more comments, because negative critique does have more points of contention than a positive one (to put it simply, you quarel with someone who’s already grumpy).
For what’s worth, I did like 8.3 very much (I could have some arguments against some points, but generally I liked it a lot). What I didn’t like at all is 8.6, and I remember writing long posts that took 4-5 hours to put together. You can imagine my frustration when one of them got deleted by the admins because I was very mean to D&D towards the end -one single phrase erased a post of 5 hours work that was most probably the best of all my critical posts. Eh, c’est la vie, what can you do?
Adrianacandle,
Amazing show. My favorites are Creed, Kevin and Stan. I think Creed had the best jokes of the show.
Lord Parramandas,
I think the problem was more that the forum wasn’t really promoted. I didn’t even knew we had a forum until a couple of weeks ago when I clicked wrong on the site and I was redirected to the forum. And it’s a shame because forum-wise would have been great for discussing the seasons when aired. It would keep interesting topics fresh who else would die in page 2.
ps. I read your reviews. And I would like too read your reviews for episode 4 till 6.
Efi,
Yea, I don’t really get the issue here. Plenty of my comments get overlooked and I don’t cry about it and insult everyone for not giving me enough attention.
And you’re right about all the comments. There are so many comments to read through and sooooo many reviews to read through that it’s impossible to read through all of them. Some are going to be overlooked. It is what it is. Especially when the comments are left on the Forum section, an area of the website that almost no one visits or even knows exists.
Lord Parramandas,
I also have many ideas how to make the forum interesting, but that means that more people would need to make use of it. This week I’m a bit busy so maybe next week I will make some topics of it.
– A game about “Favorite characters of the show”
– That same game can be done for “Favorite episode”
– Trivia-game about the show. So one person ask a question, and if somebody else guessed it, they can make another question about the show. For instance: Which character were in the most episodes. Or In which episode did Arya and the hound first meet. Etc
– Personal questions: Same as above, but more questions like: What’s your favorite pet? Do you prefer reading, gaming or watching. What’s your favorite food. Etc.
kevin1989,
Ashara Dayne was at the right place at the right time to give her own baby to Varys and deceive him. She was Elia’s lady in waiting, got knocked off by someone and I think her lover was also a Dayne, which is the reason why FAegon looks like a Targ (because Daynes look like Targs). After the baby swap Ashara returned to Starfall, where sometime later she received the visit of Eddard Stark (whence the rumors that her baby was Jon Snow). Then she faked her own death and went to find Connington who had her baby. She was disguised as septa, but was actually the one who raised Young Griff, his mother.
And I think that her secret lover was Gerold Dayne so-called Darkstar, who later was Arianne’s lover too. Darkstar probably -in my view- betrayed her to her father to facilitate the rapprochment of Dorne with FAegon. This is why he also attempts to kill Myrcella, to cause a war with the Lannisters and thus push Dorne to the unholy alliance.
Brilliant, isn’t it? Lol.
Finally! The ban is lifted!
As a thank you sacrifice to the God of Fire, I am now going to burn some hair…
(after Adriana, who got the advice from Melisandre in 6.2, no doubt)
Efi,
And about the betrayal. Somehow I don’t think it’s the 2 duded which name I can’t remember. I remember Darkstar, I remember Tyene, Myrcella, Arys and Arianne. Who knew about the plan. But I though, if one of the people betrayed Arianne who was in fact executing that plan, it wouldn’t make sense. Why wouldn’t Doran not stop Arianne at that moment. Get Myrcella, directly, put Areo on her watch. Which meant if somebody from the plan betrayed her, she would have been stopped at the beginning of her plan not the end. Which for me I though that the person who betrayed her said it to Doran at the moment the plan was being executed. And somehow I don’t trust Tyene, like Tyene don’t like Arianne because she is a bastard and Arianne isn’t. And Arianne have her father all the time and she doesn’t.
And with her winds chapters Arianne is still thinking about who betrayed her, and still it’s not answered 100%. And grrm told if I’m not mistaken Arianne III reveals something, so he can’t give that chapter away. And I have a feeling it’s somebody which when she founds out will shatter Arianne, and she keeps telling in her winds chapters that the one person she can trust is Tyene.
And I combined those 2. I though maybe when Tyene meets with Aegon, she sees septa Lemore and sees the mother of Tyene in it. And the truth hits her. And maybe she understands now that Tommen and Myrcella are death by the hands of Tyene. Or at least Myrcella, maybe she fails to kill Tommen.
But I really wish winds is here, I want those answers. Is Aegon real? Who betrayed Arianne? How will Tyrion get himself in power again with Dany. Who will survive the battle of Fire in Meereen. What is Stannis plan for defeating the Bolton’s? If Jon survive in the books, will he be 100% himself. And is it possible that the great other revives him instead of the lord of light. Will Jaime be killed by Lady Stoneheart. And more.
flintstonewielder,
Somebody had to bring this up, I am on cloud 9 about that ending. Best show on TV bar non. They will be chucking Emmys at it next year, if Jeremy Strong doesn’t win best actor I riot.
Efi,
Go in peace, Efi. The Lord of Light isnāt done with you yet. š„
We haven’t heard of tron lately, hopefully he isn’t having problems with the lord of light.
As for me I’m done with watching tv, and gaming. And I think tomorrow if I had the time I will take out “Game of thrones” out of my book-shelved and start reading from the beginning again.
Absolutely.
I also loved how just…. involved… some of Jim’s pranks on Dwight were (filling up his phone handset with nickles little by little as Dwight unknowingly became acclimatized to the weight and when it was full, while Dwight left his desk to go to the bathroom, Jim empties it so the next time Dwight picks up his phone, he knocks himself in the head).
Speaking of The Office, have you ever heard of David Thorne?
Sacrificing something beloved works! Use it all the time!
(My hair is the only thing I did right in life…)
But Ten Bears is right. The Lord of Light is not done with us yet š©
I’d LOVE a forum if I could get activated!
(It’d allow my singed hair to recover… š„šš„)
Speaking of which… it hasn’t got to this point yet for me… but it may be my future…
(at 1:00 min in)
Lord Parramandas,
That’s exactly what I thought too. And you could really see how much Sansa had grown compared to her Kings Landing time. She and Theon had good chemistry. The Vale storyline was interesting as long as crazy aunt Lysa was alive, but after she died it became boring with new characters who have no importance for the endgame.
kevin1989,
He just posted an update in the Gwen and Kit comment section, so we need to move up there I think. He’s making good progress, halfway.
Adrianacandle,
Using a curling iron to burn off oneās hair… Thatāll work! A Melisandre-approved offering to the Lord of Light + paying the iron price = increased probability āPost Commentā will succeed.
P.S. Loved the video of that poor girl singeing her locks off with the curling iron. I should be surprised she posted it online… but these days getting clicks outweighs enduring personal humiliation I suppose.
Ten Bears,
You should check out hair bleaching fails, God help me, it never gets old.
There is a moment at 8 mins 52s that makes me laugh, I feel so bad for her but its funny.
Adrianacandle,
When I was in 6th form (in my day in the UK age 16-17 was Lower 6th and age 17-18 was Upper 6th – if you stayed on at school, some left at 16, and even 15 in my time) we had to do a prĆ©cis or summary from what was deemed to be a “quality” newspaper, The Telegraph (sometimes nicknamed The Torygraph) or The Times or at a pinch (the powers that be at my old school were very right-wing) The Manchester Guardian (I think it still had the word Manchester in the title then). I can’t say that what I learned about summarising then has followed me into adult life. One of the skills I used as a secretary was shorthand (with a pen not a machine) so sometimes when I minuted meetings I had to condense my notes. The delegates sometimes wanted key facts and not a verbatim report.
Someone (I think it was Grandmaester Flash) said in reply to a question I asked some time ago on the forums that it was worth reading AFFC and ADWD in tandem so I should try that at some time to see if that part of the story appeals to me more if I read the two books together. Mind you, those books are hard to find in my local library. Now people who love AFFC and ADWD please don’t take that as a criticism – as people we all have our individual personalities and as they say “One man’s meat is another man’s poison” (should that be “person’s” rather than “man’s” these days?). One lady I know is an avid fan of Philippa Gregory’s historical novels and – err – shall we say I’m not, but that doesn’t mean we’ve fallen out.
Adrianacandle,
Jim’s prank’s were awesome. My favorite was stapler in Jelly and Asian Jim.
And I can’t say I know David Thorne. I looked him up but don’t know any of his projects, is it comedy like the office?
As for the Office, I also watched Michael Schurr (producer and writer of many Office episodes) other 2 projects which I liked. “Parks and recreation” (which season 1 is not that great but season 2 and onward is amazing) it’s a bit of a satirical comedy about politics and how working in a city-hall works. It’s making fun of it in a good way. And “Brooklyn 99”. But I prefer the office and Parks.
Another great shows that people who watched the office are “Always Sunny in Philladelpia” & “30 Rock”, both shows like the office had a bad first season. But after season 2 they were amazing and gold. It’s strange how many great comedies have a bad first season. And many bad comedies have a great first season but after season 2 it become bad till the end.
Adrianacandle,
Not yet activated? Ask Sue, best when she just started a new Article when it’s fresh.
Ten Bears,
True! And it did get her on Ellen!
But I loved this comment from that video:
And I used to think it was a good thing when my hairspray soaked locks sizzled upon being wrapped around the curling iron’s barrel…
The Iron Price indeed… (did you see the smoke rising from the barrel when she wrapped her hair around it??? I’m impressed she held it together as well as she did, I’d have to be taken away)
Dame of Mercia,
That’s a skill! I would have a wicked hard time doing that! (Both with shorthand and cutting down the notes to its essentials!)
I read this guideline on Wikipedia sometime ago about how to write plot summaries for their articles and this under ‘What to cut’ from retelling a narrative:
My David would be a slightly chipped block of marble.
I heard people had an improved experience reading AFFC and ADWD in tandem! I read AFFC in May 2011 and ADWD the day after it came out but I remember throwing the book across the room in rage when I reached the ending XD;;;;;
Oh, I LOVE Asian Jim (and stapler in Jello and faxes from the future! And pretty much all of them)! The amount of work Jim put into it — from anticipating Dwight’s interrogation questions to the T, training Asian Jim on all relevant aspects of his life, Asian Jim channeling Jim perfecting, Jim retaking his family photos to feature Asian Jim and their new kids with Pam, and then hearing Pam’s explanation:
Pam: Jim had a dentist’s appointment this morning.
I think you’d like David Thorne! He’s a writer (graphic designer by day, which I quite like because that’s what I am too!) who trolls people in email exchanges. ‘Missing Missy’ (his secretary Shannon asks him to make a missing cat poster for her and the posters Thorne comes up with are…. you’ll see! Reference to LOST there too!) is a classic, ‘Ten Formal Complaints’ features formally submitted complaints his co-worker Simon has made about him:
Also recommended are ‘Overdue Account’, ‘Timesheets’, ‘That’s Not How It Works’ and ‘More Branded’ š (All can be found in the sidebar of the page ‘Missing Missy’ links to!)
Yes, I also love Parks and Recreation! I haven’t seen Brooklyn 99 or 30 Rock (but I really love Donald Glover on Community — I think Glover worked on 30 Rock as a writer?).
Adrianacandle,
Brilliant scene xd
Jenny,
Oooooh. Those were brutal (and I smiled but I feel terrible for her too!)
When she says this:
I didn’t even know bleach could do this to you until YouTube.
Adrianacandle,
Haha the lost reference was brilliant and strange that he used the season 5 cover which I’m currently watching.
As for the 3 shows I posted that you didn’t watch. It’s always sunny in Philadelphia is the best of the 3. 30 rock after that. And Brooklyn the last. And I also watched community. Brilliant show. Ass crack bandit.
I recommended them all. I though Donald clover wrote some episodes on 30 rock. So you probably are right with that.
And who was your favorite in parks and recreation?
Kevin1989,
Yes! Also, as of the current count, 467 comments in this thread…!
Kevin1989,
I think my favourite is in response to her question, “Why is the photo of Missy so small?” and he replies, “It’s a design thing. The cat is lost in the negative space.”
Re: Parks & Rec. I can’t think of any one episode but I really loved Ron and April and how they were foils to Leslie! I need to do a rewatch…
Loved Community! And its solemn documentary on the pillow and blanket wars narrated by the same guy (Keith David) who did the Ken Burns documentaries The War and WWII: Behind Closed Doors. Beautiful š
I’ll keep your recommendations in mind! Thanks!!
It seems our interesting discussions here about the show, books and Tron’s amazing book journey paid off. So who is going to read the books after Tron is ending his journey. Ten bears?
Adrianacandle,
Haha that was a brilliant comeback yes. Or his reward part.
Yes Ron and April were amazing. I also loved Donna and Greg. The only one I didn’t really like was Tom. Oh and of course Jerry.
My favorite episode was when the two towns merge. And Ron meets other Ron. And first they like each other, but then Ron founds out other Ron is a hippie, and we first meet Greg. That episode was brilliant.
And about community: That’s nice.
That press conference scene, I went *Go for it. Go For It! GO FOR IT!!!*
Slam dunk!!!!
Yeah! I really loved the community discussion it fostered!
LOL!! Poor poor Jerry!! XD;;; (Real name: Gary. And while everyone in the office inexplicably hates him, he had a pretty sweet life XD!)
Agreed about everything! I’m definitely putting Parks and Rec rewatch on the docket. I’m remembering all sorts of lovely things like Ron’s “ad” for an assistant, April as that assistant, just the town of Pawnee (I even bought the book years back — worth it!), their “child-sized” soda cups (ie. “child-sized” meaning it can fit a toddler), etc. etc.
Or is it… streets ahead???
I now have to get ready to leave my cave today in order to go to meetings ( š ! ) and it’s a bright sunny day. It’s like God hates me (he doesn’t care how much hair I burn in service to a greater purpose, he’ll still make it sunny).
Adrianacandle,
I think that’s why I love Jerry/Gary/Larry so much, he know he has a great life, and wonderful family, so he just doesn’t care. And I still find his joke funny, why he has such a beautiful wife and that doctor says he has the biggest penis he has ever seen XD still cracks me up.
Did you know Annie from Community was in Mad Men, amazing show?
Good Luck, hope you still have an amazing day.
475th Comment. Not including those sacrificed to the Lord of Light.
Good, lively discussions all around. š
kevin1989,
…āIt seems our interesting discussions here about the show, books and Tronās amazing book journey paid off. So who is going to read the books after Tron is ending his journey. Ten bears?ā
_____
Probably. Maybe.
Kevin1989,
ā…As for the 3 shows I posted that you didnāt watch. Itās always sunny in Philadelphia is the best of the 3….ā
____
Iāve never watched Itās Always Sunny in Philadelphia. Iāve heard itās funny.
I also remember when one of its directors, Matt Shakman, was announced as the director of S7e4 of Game of Thrones and some fans were wringing their hands, questioning the ability of a sitcom director to helm a GoT episode.
And then āSpoils of Warā turned out to be the consensus favorite episode of S7.
kevin1989,
Thanks, Kevin!
And I did! I love Mad Men, such a good show š I think it also had Elisabeth Moss (Handmaid’s Tale), Alexis Bledel (Gilmore Girls, Handmaid’s Tale), Vincent Kartheiser (Angel), Kiernan Shipka (Sabrina), and I’m missing many more, I bet š But great, great series.
If you find you ever want that Pawnee book but can’t get it in the Netherlands, I can send one back with my friend when she returns to Friesland in February and ask her to ship it to any address you’re comfortable with, like a P/O box, office address, nearby bookstore/Bruna š It is a hilarious book! Offer’s always on the table if you ever want to take it! If not, just ignore this!
You sound like a Bloody Woman (Brienne of Tarth).
Well I would love to read your book journey.
Ten Bears,
It’s amazing, except season 1, that season is oke-ish. And almost garbage. But I pulled through, they found their way in season 2 when Dany DeVito was added to the cast. He is brilliant. And it’s still on the air.
And D&D have an episode almost at the end. They were working in a swimming pool.
Adrianacandle,
Yes amazing show and brilliant ending of Mad Men. And Amazing characters.
What’s the Pawnee book?
This book, written in-universe by Leslie Knope. It’s a really great accessory to the show!
I will look up a download for a couple of chapters in the future, and if I like it I will buy it. I put it on my list. Thank you š
I hope you like it!
“Welcome to Pawnee, IN. First in friendship, fourth in obesity.”
Ten Bears,
I want to; maybe we should have a post just for that. Otherwise we might blow up the circuit on this thread! Do think this has been a fascinating discussion; there is so much I’d forgotten. (and I think there has been a minimum of heated angry sections, or maybe they just get overshadowed by the rest!)
My key takeaway from this is we won’t see Winds of Winter any time soon, late 2020/early 2021 at best most likely. Very little chance of the final book being written by GRRM at this point either:-(
I hadn’t heard that one but there were definitely posters on here and the infamous site managed by the two Swedish “super fans” that were convinced GRRM had written Winds and just didn’t want to release it until after the show as some sort of revenge to D&D.
I feel we need to accept we will likely get Winds in the next couple of years but will never see ADOS published whilst GRRM is alive.