After the mind-blowing, ratings-shattering (and apparently divisive) Episode 3 of Game of Thrones’ Season 8, “The Long Night,” the fandom is reeling. What will happen in the last three episodes of the final season, now that the threat of the army of the dead has been dispatched? We can’t answer that yet, of course, but we can glean what we can from the newly-released official Episode 4 photos and start to formulate some theories.
We see Tormund, Sansa, Arya, Jon, Grey Worm, Dany and Sam preparing to light funeral pyres for those who fell in the Battle of Winterfell. It’s interesting that the North is burning their dead, which — before the threat of the White Walkers hit close to home — was only undertaken by the free folk. Are they just being cautious? Or have they learned something important?
Dany’s forces are on the move again, with their few remaining ships, likely heading to King’s Landing to confront the threat of Cersei and the Lannister forces.
This photo and the following two seem to be from the same scene of lighting the funeral pyres — and it may just be the angle or the way the scene is shot, but you can clearly see that the Northern forces are looking pretty depleted.
Another war planning council in the library, it would seem, but who are Missandei, Dany and Varys listening to?
Cersei is looking self-satisfied as usual, and Euron looks happy that his Queen is happy…although he’s also looking a bit sly. These two are quite a pair, but they’re also a force to be reckoned with.
So what do you think about these photos? What do they mean for Episode 4 — and perhaps for the story going forward? Let us know in the comments!
Fire and blood!!!
I hope they will explain the staring contest between the Night King and Bran!
Hodor! (First time posting….Better late than never….lol!)
As usual, so limited and all essentially from or close to shots in the preview. Darn it…
Daenerys looks surprisingly happy-ish in the shot with Drogon — and looking UP, which one might assume is at Jon & Rhaegal. I’d love for them to have reasons to smile at each other…
so based on this photos, the episode will be mostly a bunch of people staring into the distance
Hmm, The Starks are bunched up together far from Daenerys, lol! Brienne is no longer just behind Sansa.
Did Brienne, Jaime, and Pod decide to start up their own house?
Where did she get so many ships?
Roberta Baratheon,
I really hope so! Also, where Bran was warging off to? Was it just to track NK?
Come on Varys, it is your time.
Those are very few ships. We saw the entire fleet, with Targaryen ships (taken from the slavers), Martells, Tyrells, and Greyjoys at the end of season six, and it was enormous. Now only the Targaryen ships are left, it seems (they weren’t at the battle at sea in “Stormborn”, remember.)
They repainted the ones that Stannis had loaned Jon? Ships multiply as needed? They were always parked at Dragonstone?
Ooh, interesting!!
First thoughts: They’re in their respective “teams” in the burning the dead scene, but it is Jon (not Dany as queen) who seems to lead the burning of the pyre. We know they all do it, as that’s in the preview, but here we see team North with Jon half in shot leading the burning and Team Dany with Dany in place. Do they say some words maybe and he happens to go first? I find it interesting she isn’t given that role, to speak first or walk out first, as the queen.
Thor are lots of pieces on that map, I presume that’s the enemy’s configuration? They don’t have that many survivors presumably?
I feel so sad to see no Jorah at Dany’s side and it’s interesting that she is flanked by Varys and Missandei in the war council – Tyrion is not at her side. Arbitrary placement? Or is it signalling continuing divisions?
Jaime and Brienne are not stood with team north. I would expect Brienne to, so does that mean her loyalty has shifted to the man she loves and she chose to stand with him? Davos is with team north, so you’d think Brienne would too.
After reeling for a few days, I am back to excited again. What on earth comes next?!
Miss Stark,
Maybe the Second Sons are coming with a resupply?
Indeed! Now that “Ice” is gone, let’s deal with “Fire”, I suppose. Dany would want to unleash hell on Cersei, now that “Jon’s war” is finally over.
Oh and also, Hodor. No Wight Hodor though 🙁
Edit: LOL, it took way too long to post his comment 😀
When I saw this in the preview, I thought she might be looking at just Rhaegal, happy he is recovering and getting better from his fall following the Viserion battle.
Can we say that the people lined up for the funeral are ALL they have left? So estimating with those out of shot on the right, maybe a couple hundred. That few certainly isn’t going to do them any good against Cersei. What are the chances that J&D can band together another adequately numbered army?
Two dragons go a long way!
There is nothing about it that needs explaining.
Che,
I think Brienne is standing on the North side, she is near Royce who is Sansa’s man from the Vale, then the wildlings are further down. They seem to be standing next to those they fought alongside in the battle, Pod is also with them.
It’s Jaime’s loyalty I’m worried about, he has fulfilled his oaths, so he is essentially a free agent, I am praying they don’t have him flip flopping. Maybe that is the reason for Bronn’s assassination attempt, when Jaime finds out, that might be the final final straw.
I don’t see why there is anything wrong with the placement of Brienne. She’s standing to the right side of Team North, just next to Royce and Maester Wolkan. What’s wrong with that?
Roberta Baratheon,
What about that needs explaining?
Yeah, that is possible. I thought about that too after I posted.
This is true. They should just land them on the roof of the throne room, bust in and have both AeJon and Daenerys simply sit on the iron throne claiming to be the new rulers. I mean, Cersei pretty much did that – just went to the throne, decided she’s now queen and had Qyburn crown her.
No. After that, they would have tons of people out and about trying to fix up Winterfell, trying to learn what has happened elsewhere, etc. Also, there is no particular reason to think that the people in the shots are supposed to be all the people present.
Daenerys was not going to be in last week’s episode because the pre-season trailer didn’t show her there. Then the Night King was not going to be in last week’s episode because the episode trailer and stills did not show him. At this point, we should assume that people shown in the trailers & promo shots definitely are in the episode, and that people excluded from the trailer & promo shots who are in the region probably are.
Mango,
Brienne, Jaime and Pod are standing to the right of the Starks with Lord Royce and the Vale
Does Sandor have Heartsbane???
And Sandor and Sansa are like…IN THE SAME SCENE??? YESSSSSSSS….
From the pics-most are from promo I think, though that one of Varys with all his scrolls makes me think he’s finally back in his element.
Arya and Jon both look bone tired. They’ve seen so much death, those two. I hope they get the credit they deserve.
Oh and Sansa and Sandor are actually in a picture together. They haven’t even been in the same location since the season started. Maybe she could thank him for saving her sister or something?
Speaking of, what’s next for Sandor? I think he would want to stay near Arya and Sansa to protect them, but he was alone with Mel for a while and with his previous visions and the fact that Thoros, Beric and Mel are gone, the Lord of Light may still have a plan for him.
Miss Stark,
Her ships were never destroyed..that same no of ships she has in the season 7 finale
Miss Stark,
The ships where in White Harbor since the start of the season….
Clob,
The dragons count for a lot though, didn’t Aegon the Conqueror have like 1500 troops to start with, plus the 3 dragons.
There are myriad possible explanations for why Daenerys might have that expression! My first thought was that it was someone grieving who is remembering something happy or funny about the person they are grieving. But it could be anything: facial expressions are 4-dimensional, which means that a still often is highly misleading; people often infer a completely different emotion from stills than what actually was happening. (See: “Why is Sansa crying?” last week!)
Looks like a Dorne sigil on one of the scrolls next to Varys…
Both Brienne and Jamie are standing on the north side along with Pod and Royce.
I have a feeling we’re going to see a Cersei/Euron wedding.
Is Cersei shoving peasants into the Red Keep in the preview? It sure looks like it. That would mean burning the Red Keep would also come with the cost of 1000s of innocents.
Right now they SERIOUSLY don’t have enough soldiers to take KL by force, dragons are certainly going to be a necessity and that comes with a lot of moral baggage.
Two dragons are not enough for Cersei’s army, and the Golden Company. They need to either infiltrate Cersei’s lines, attempt an assassination, or build up forces somehow. My guess is they will recruit from Pyke and Riverrun on their way south.
What Jaime does next is anyone’s guess- I just hope both Lannister brothers have finally learned their lesson with Cersei. We’ll see how it plays out with Bronn- as much as I want to trust that he feels a loyalty to Jaime and Tyrion, I think that it is highly unlikely he does not. I have a feeling something may go down at the inn at the crossroads.
rhard,
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bjkr73/spoilers_scroll_in_front_of_varys/
Wimsey,
I really have no idea what you’re going on about with the previews and all that. Ha! I didn’t mention anything about that.
If you noticed, there was a question mark at the end of my sentence about the number of people. Of course I was only talking about fighting people in their army/armies. I’m one that would think all of each respective group would want to be present to honor their fallen brothers and sisters. I think that’s more important than random tasks for the short amount of time it would take… But ya know, maybe they’re not all there. twas just an observation and a question
Trivia: Iain Glen already said he filmed the funeral pyre sequence; he and any of Alfie Allen, Ben Crompton and Bella Ramsey who appear therein will meet the 4-episode minimum to be part of the show’s next and final SAG Ensemble nomination.
Lord Royce wisely survived the battle by not appearing at all in the episode. Considering how empty Winterfell seemed last week apart from the main characters, I’m guessing we’re going to see an implausibly large group of surviving soldiers.
BeardedOnion,
Using human shields sounds like something Cersei would do to preempt a dragon strike on the Red Keep.
Jack Bauer 24,
The only way I can avoid vomiting at that is if it’s paired with a Targaryen wedding.
This episode will probably be one of recovery. Burn the dead. Gather information about Cersei and the Golden Company (note several scrolls in Varys’ picture), reestablish their base at Dragonstone, reach out to others in Dorne and the Reach for assistance. Make sure the dragons are healed and ready for more battle. With their deleted forces, the dragons are going to have to do the heavy lifting in the next battle. My big questions
1) Now that Dany and Jon have time to think, will they further discuss his heritage?
2) With the Night King defeated, does Bran assist Jon and Dany or do they just drop him off at the Isle of Faces along the way?
3) Where is Bronn and whose side is he on?
I see Jorah in 2 of the pictures :(. The first is when the torchbearers are walking to light the pyres. He is in the pyre closest to the left of the photo and placed in the corner of it closest to Jon’s foot. Dany is the one making a line for that pyre. The other photo he is out of focus in but it is in the one with Dany, Varys, Grey Worm, Tyrion, and Missandei looking out at the pyres. He is the top body on the right. Dany is looking directly at him and besides that clue you can tell it is him by the cascading flaps on the bottom of his armor that were unique to his clothes. So sad 🙁
z4luvr,
I think this will be how it goes with the last shot of the episode Dany’s ships heading south.
I’m intrigued. That’s quite a few scrolls they have there. Word come in from who and where?
Miss Stark,
Yara went back to the Iron Islands to claim it in Dany’s name. I’m guessing this is Yara coming back. It is going to very sad when she finds out about Theon.
That’s a very good point. I remember bringing up the possibility that Cersei would use people as a human shield when Dany was threatening to attack the Red Keep back in Season 7. It’d be a smart tactical move. I wonder what their plans for Dany are that Qyburn mentioned in episode 1 this season.
Friggin’ coward must have been hiding like Janos at CB. 😛 I don’t know why but the last time I gave a shit about that guy was when he was watching Robin shoot the ground with arrows. I also still wonder why he doesn’t seem to care that Sansa lied to them to cover for Littlefinger killing Lysa
It is interesting that they are burning the bodies… It does make me wonder if the Night King is really gone.
I see that Dany’s team of seamstress’s avoided getting killed.
It is probably the best way to dispose of the dead. There are thousands upon thousands of them with the AOTD included. No way they could dig a grave for that many.
Clob,
Because the writers didn’t consider the ramifications of making that change at the time.
Bianca Funk,
Frozen ground and a vast amount of bodies, so it’s probably out of practicality. It would take so long to dig that many graves.
Although it did make me wonder whether Dany would want Jorah on a mass funeral pyre. Would the Starks not put Theon in the crypts as he was “a Stark and also a Greyjoy”
Ah the nice 3 minute burn the bodies act break to show how quickly we’ve all moved on from all the brutal death, savagery, snow, cold, food shortages (remember that was a thing just 2 episodes ago, then again the wall was a thing just 4 episodes ago too) and chaotic disorder that changed us forever. Yes of course. I’m very changed by the all the death I saw and how starved we all were for the last…day? Day and a half? Two days maybe? That’s okay though because now it’s on to the real threat…dollar store Jack Sparrow and his new wife Cersei!
Okey dokey guyyyyys. I for one am very excited for the final 3 episodes. Very excited.
BeardedOnion,
If that be the case, certainly they should try any reasonable means possible not to burn the Keep, but a few thousand lives in the Red Keep are not worth leaving millions under Cersei’s thumb. The moral responsibility for the death of hostages is on the hostage taker, in this case Cersei. Again, try to avoid it, but if you have to burn the Red Keep to the ground to get Cersei, that’s what you gotta do, otherwise you’ll join the ranks of the “Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, and Rhaegar died” types, who littered the series. How many innocents in the Riverlands and elsewhere died because of Ned Stark’s mercy for Cersei’s innocent children. Cersei’s gotta go. I suspect this is all academic though and it won’t come to that. I’m just saying sometimes there is no clean choice to make, in this case, given no other alternative than Cersei’s continued rain, burn it down.
Question: why don’t they just get Drogon to roast all the bodies instead of building funeral pyres (a few feet away from the castle I hasten to add).
Yes! Nicely observed. Insane that they did not have a conversation yet. Maybe they wanted to focus on Arya’s story with him first, because it was important for her killing the NK. He was very protective of both sisters, so now that him helping Arya survive the battle is out of the way, I wonder if he might help Sansa in some way to close the circle?
Well, maybe he is a decent human being who can actually find enough empathy to understand her precarious position at the time. Who really knows?
Boojam,
I ugly laughed at this!
Bianca Funk,
He has a brother, the Day King. Ah-ahhhh-ahhhhhhh!
Sansa is probably thinking, “That sure is a lot of meat we’re going to waste by burning.” 😛 j/k !!
Dyanna,
True. Man I hope they bury Theon in crypts. I am still recovering from his and Jorah’s death.
orange,
Yes, dollar store Darth Maul and the zombie movie was much preferable.
Apollo,
LOL, imagine a huge pile of bodies with Jorah and Lyanna just thrown in, hanging upside down, lit by Drogon. Hmm.
I guess that decision came from the same place where the Jon-Alliser stare off at the Castle Black gate on the wrong side of the Wall came from. The place where visuals beat pragmatism.
That reminds me of my knowingly absurd theory that perhaps there were two Night Kings (Princes) and Richard Brake’s NK has another aotd that got across at Westwatch-by-the-Bridge. 🙂
As it relates to the two different actors for the NK… I personally think they did a much better job this season of making Furdik’s look more like Brake’s. fixed the nose and more menacing
BeardedOnion,
Yeah my first thought was ‘human shield’ of course Cersei would do that😡
I just can’t take seeing Jorah on the pyre, and I know I have to, dammit (apparently he fell asleep, much like Jon on his slab. Lol). Or Theon or Edd, for that matter. Auuuggghhh. I wonder if someone picks up Mel’s necklace?
Background Mountain is backgrounding.
Vally,
Indeed.. I guess in hindsight blasting loved ones in dragon isn’t particularly respectful, and dragons cost money 😋
I find it interesting how the main characters are not standing together and are instead separated into camps. I look forward to some disagreements on how to proceed against Cersei, not to mention the fallout from the parentage reveal in the crypts.
The war council should consist of everyone agreeing that they should send Arya in, she takes the face of Red Keep hand maid, and then she kills everyone in their sleep.
No need to burn the city with Drogon or risk anymore loss of life. Should be an ironclad plan.
*Slow clap commences*
I wonder if we will see the death of Robbett Glover here for holding his forces out of the battle. He already refused the call once.
Now that Lyanna Mormont is no longer there to push him around I think there will be a fiery example made of him, which in turn will further split Dany’s camp from the Northern camp.
I for one love the idea. Three full episodes of ASNAWP just kickin’ ass by herself while everyone else just sits by the fire at Winterfell telling stories and singing songs until she gets back. 😉
It’s certainly not as dumb as some of the plans they’ve come up with.
Good! I want, I need a long private talk between the Stark siblings about Jon’s parentage and the sisters to assure him that he’s still a Stark and that he belongs with them <3
#noTargrestorationplz
Perhaps he’s accepted how Littlefinger was able to dig his claws into naive and vulnerable people, as he did to Lord Robin and Lysa herself. And since Littlefinger went on to trade Sansa to the Boltons, by whom she was treated unspeakably, perhaps he’s more sympathetic toward her.
And Sansa ultimately delivered justice for Lysa’s murder and his trial showed that he had got away with many more crimes, including convincing Lysa to murder her husband.
I think it’s pretty safe to assume that he and Sansa have cleared the air by this point.
One really disappointing thing about Arya’s kill was that no sense of defeat was shown on KN’s face. He just turned to dust.
Bianca Funk,
You and me both 😢
Ulfie,
A bit like the White Walker at Hardhome when Jon’s sword didn’t shatter.
Why wouldn’t Sansa have already done so?
I don’t think defeating Cersei will be very easy, Cersei has many more soldiers. The only thing we have is 2 dragons. And Cersei is no fool, I expect her to to have defences installed against the dragons.
The title sequence showed us a Big huge bolt pointing to a dragon. I think she will take out at least one dragon.
I’m thinking the separation of ‘camps’ at the pyre scene is less to do with potential conflict or loyalty, and more to do with paying first respects to those lost who were closest to them in life.
That one dothraki (assuming the guy behind Dany is a dothraki) who survived must feel pretty lonely but at least he has all of his dead comrades’ wives to keep him company lol
🤔 Dany is probably thinking about climbing on top of this funeral pyre in order to win over the northerners..
/s 😂
It would be both expedient and pragmatic to burn the bodies. Burying them would take forever, and even longer in the winter time. And even in the winter, that many dead bodies awaiting burial would start to rot and create both unpleasant conditions and unhygienic ones (= “attract bad humours” :-D). The bodies also would attract scavengers in large numbers, which would make life around Winterfell even less pleasant than it is now.
(And, of course, it seems like cremation is common among Essosians, so this might be simply the proper rite for the Unsullied and Dothraki.)
Still, just to let it be known now: if I need to be cremated and their is a dragon handy, have the dragon light my pyre. I want to go in style, bay-bee!!!
What my husband and I are wondering more and more, especially since Sansa didn’t mention him to Varys or Tyrion in the crypts, was are they keeping the killing of LF a secret from everyone? Even though it was justified?
The only people in there were some loyal soldiers, Royce, Sansa, Arya and Bran. Not a single person has mentioned his death, even in passing, and even when Jaime showed up for his trial-when Sansa knew that the Lannister Stark feud was started on purpose by LF-he wasn’t mentioned.
Is this on purpose to keep his face usable for Arya? Is keeping him quiet one of the reasons Sansa is keeping Royce so close every time anyone sees her?
Or is it the weirdest plot hole ever?
Pigeon,
That seems pretty plausible. As with so many other things, I am sure that it will make sense when we see the shot in the context of the whole scene.
Wimsey,
I mean on screen 🙂 He was a big part of her KL story line.
RG,
I was wondering that too! Why are they being so hush hush about him? But I swear if Arya uses his face to kill Cersei, I will lose my mind 😂 Love ASNAWP, but I want someone else to kill her.
I would say that the maroon pieces in the bay are obviously eurons fleet. But, the cream pieces are to the south of kings landing, and that to me would suggest dorne.
Ghost is standing in that funeral line up in the trailer but not in the photos. Ooops.
OT … I must confess I feel badly about my screen name now that the Dothraki are slain in battle. My intent on choosing the name was not disrespectful, it was meant to be what Cersei would say when she saw them from the walls, or what a Westerosi knight might say just before he met the arakh blade with his throat.
Can I change my screen name to something less sad?
Same. What Varys said once about LF, “He would see this country burn if it meant he could be king of the ashes”
That describes Cersei perfectly.
Dyanna,
He’s behind Sam. Ya gotta zoom and squint.
Clob,
It’s actually the smartest plan they could possibly come up with given the powers Arya has been given.
Viz,
Definitely not. Jon would feel responsible for swinging that sword. there is no way he would allow daenerys to attract any more glares from the northerners after all the aid she has supplied to them.
Ah yes!! I zoomed and squinted. Could see his bum only lol. 👍
Yes a Samuel L. Jackson-esque “Muutherfucker!” was definitely in order.
Dyanna,
He’s been very malnourished by the CGI budget gods lol
But he’s still standing, so YAY!
Dyanna,
Alexa play “You Can’t Keep a Good Dog Down”
😉
The stills and previews are always fun to see and start speculating about, but I’ve long given up assuming they mean what people think they might mean. Including myself. 😜
RG,
I wondered about that too, but what bothers me is that Jon hasn’t asked yet (last time he saw LF, he was throttling him in the crypts after all), not that Sansa/Arya didn’t mention it.
But then again, I suppose D&D thought there was no time!? LF’s death was so awesome though. Great teamwork from the Stark siblings, especially Sansa.
Dany: “Drogon, could you please just do a few little respectful puffs of flame beneath the pyres for us?”
*Drogon nods sadly, moves towards pyre….suddenly sneezes and burns what’s left of Winterfell to the ground*
Drogon: “Mom I am SO sorry.”
They are burning all the dead because of sanitary reasons. The dead bodies stink to high heaven and if not disposed of, disease will be born and spread. It is quicker to pile the bodies and cremate them rather than bury them.
No, no, no. They can’t have the assassin go in and assassinate Cersei. It would be too “predictable”. They need to find someone else. Maybe Jon, because his story has been about evil monsters with ice-cold hearts too. That works. 😜
JeffreyBGood,
I would say that there is also a case of trepidation to not burn because of what happened in the crypts. They may believe that there is no aotd now but they can not be sure what will be going on long after they are dead in 500 years time, and they have no wish to leave their descendants with the same problems that they had to face on this occasion.
Che,
Davos can choke her to death on onions.
😂 Well it wouldn’t be predictable, that’s for sure. I think I’d rather this than super-hero Arya saves the day again.
Viz,
I think since they already mentioned him, we’ll see Glover again for sure – and also the Reeds. How can they make a deal of Robett and not of Howland? (we already know why they haven’t shown Howland yet, but now would be the time if ever, since he’s the only living person who knew what happened between Lyanna and Rhaegar, he’ll probably be sought out).
Bianca Funk,
I would think that it’s far more practical *and* far more dignified than dumping them in a mass grave (not to mention, the ground should be frozen and pretty much impenetrable).
I do hope they have a lot of incense on hand—it’s going to stink to high heaven.
I’d be practical and have the dragons incinerate them, but that’s just me.
EDIT: I see I’m late to the party and all of the above has been pointed out. My apologies.
Ulfie,
Due to the facial prosthetics, the only expressions available were “smirk” or “stare.”
It definitely seems like Cersei is filling her keep with *shudder* ordinary people. Either they’re all about to be sacrificed to Qyburn or she’s using them as armor. Which means dragons will have limited appeal for many.
It also looks like Sansa is staying in Winterfell. Watch her get kidnapped and taken to Cersei anyway. Then Arya will have to use her LF face to get her, Sandor, Brienne and Jaime into the city to actually get sh** done and save the day while Dany and Jon are arguing about killing everyone they just saved.
Meanwhile Bran…
lol
Honestly, I have no idea what’s going to happen now, but if it involves Cersei’s preferences, it’s going to get ugly. I prefer WW armies. Not as creative with their evil, despite all that abstract art.
RG,
I love this! Excellent! Oh man. Wow. Nice.
ShameShameShame,
Oh I wish we could see the Reeds. But no one has mentioned them since Meera left.
Netheb,
I agree. You kind of think she’d want to brag about it or something. lol
Prefiera de Gryfalco,
Dude get over yourself. This is not happening. ENDGAME is Sansa and Jon. The mirror of Ned and Catlyn except this time they get it right.
I saw someone suggest that he should have momentarily reverted back to his human form before dying. A way of reminding us that he was once just a human being, like everyone else.
Fair is fair.
Ok. here is my take. too much crying. Arya was the assassin and had the role of killing the night king. NO nissa nissa, and NO prince that was promised. Jon came back for a reason and that is to reset the kingdom. DANY is just a side kick, who will go mad. Battle for kings landing is episode 5, so Dany and Jon confrontation is episode 6. I thin Arya kills dany. Jon takes the throne, and Sansa is queen. ENDGAME people listen and stop taking the GANJA JUICE
Tyrion Pimpslap,
It is, but can you see Jon killing a woman? Not unless she’d just killed his sisters or Dany. Or a sentence was passed, since he follows the old ways.
I wouldn’t mind a nice one on one with Euron though. Jon has faced down death, he can handle crazy.
If Cersei has dragons killed, hopefully Dany will throttle her to death. She can pick up a sword, so we know she’s willing to get dirty. 😆
That’s the dream right there.
Right? Mine too.
RG,
Okay. Maybe Ghost can do it.
Cersei will be killed by Arya, Jaime, or Arya wearing Jamie’s face.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Ghost for the win! I’m okay with that. She is responsible for having his sister Lady killed and Nymeria sent into exile in the Riverlands. 🙂
Remember that Emilia is on Kimmel tonight, if you care…
George,
‘A Song Of Ice And Fire And Arya’.
Kills all of the Freys
Defeats the Others
Kills Cersei
The Long Night had dropped to 9,0 on imdb. Having the 35 place, meaning it’s exactly halfway on the current aired episodes.
And season 8 Doesn’t do it well. With an average of 8,76
Season 4: 9,33
Season 7: 9,21
Season 6: 9,12
Season 1: 9,12
Season 3: 9,10
Season 2: 9,03
Season 5: 8,90
Season 8: 8,77
Currently season 8 holds the lowest average of the show, I hope the last 3 will give that a huge bump. It can have the highest score of all seasons in all 3 remaining episodes score higher than 9,9 average, and episode 3 will not drop lower.
It will take second place if it has a average of 9,7 or higher.
And third place if it has a average of 9,5 or higher.
To think of it, it feels a bit like the death of Voldemort in Harry Potter.
Pigeon,
what if Dany is the Volanqar, the Volanqar of Rheagar.
—
And what episode do we think episode 4 will have?
My guesses:
– Ice and Fire
– Dreams of Spring (It starts here)
– Queen of the Ashes
– Aegon
I think that this episode will surprise us. We’re almost the end game now, and too many characters survived the Great War.
We don’t expect anything major after 3, only the aftermath. But I think there will be some huge plot twist or shocking death that no one is expecting.
1h.18m only for council war, some King’s Landing scene and a funeral? Nah.
In the HBO Schedule the episode is marked with “Violence”. It’s important, not a generic thing: 8.02 is not marked with violence, 8.03 with Graphic Violence.
I think that something huge or unpredictable will trigger the Last War.
Bianca Funk,
I think the remainder of Westeros should take up the Wildling practice of cremating the dead. After what they faced, they should assume the possibility of other white walkers existing/being created.
I would love that. I fluctuate so much on how I feel about Dany. I either love her or feel frustrated by her (I never hate her). Last episode, I loved her. She was fierce. She picked up a sword and she fought! It was one of the highlights of the whole episode for me. I would love to see her strangle Cersei.
An Aria of Ice and Fire?
Get it?
*runs away*
But seriously, we know Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya are the main story lines, and Arya’s entire arc is about training to kill people, so we shouldn’t be surprised she picks up the show vs book slack on the murder board ie the Freys.
Personally I’m now mainly rooting for most if not all of my favorite second stringers to survive to the end. Brienne, Jaime, Davos, Sandor, Gendry
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I’m not sure if they will have Arya kill Cersei, even though she definitely could do it.
I’m also not rooting for anyone to kill Cersei while she’s pregnant. I don’t care how much of a villain she is, the baby doesn’t deserve to be killed. That was one of the absolute most horrid things about the red wedding, and I can’t see rooting for someone to kill Cersei and her baby. I would send her to the Wall to take the black, if there was still a Wall. For me, it was really Little Finger who did the most to destroy the lives of the heroes I cared most about, and he already met his just end.
Manuel Delgado,
If Jon had married a Stark, it would have been Arya but she seems to be headed in Gendry’s direction unless he bites the dust in the next few episodes. Sansa is too much like Cat, who was cruel to him, so I highly doubt he’d want to spend his life shackled to someone who reminded him of his lousy childhood. His character seems to be attracted to fiery women like Ygritte, Val and Dany. He is a Targ after all and he’s got fire in his blood so a cold blooded woman like Sansa being his choice would certainly be a twist. If that’s their plan, I’d rather they just killed him off.
Che,
I would not be sad about that at all. 🙂
Well given that the Long Night arc is over:
8.4 The Rightful Queen
8.5 The Rightful King
8.6 A Dream of Spring or A Song Of Ice and Fire.
Wait, is Jon marrying one of his sisters still a thing? He is already in love with one relative and we’ve been told this is going to cause him problems. There is no way he is going to turn his back on Dany because she is his aunt and then hop into bed with someone he has always known as his sister.
I think Cersei’s pregnancy is a myth? She’s still not showing in the pictures for 8.4, and most definitely she should be.
From those pictures, the dead on the pyres sure don’t seem to be stacked very high or very tightly. They must either have a hell of a lot of pyres or either those they show may have just been the high ranking people and so they gave them a more tidy burning. I kind of expected to see piles and piles of bodies.
Tron79,
I’m just not sure I believe she’s actually pregnant.
1. Maggy the Frog said 3 kids only
2. Olenna Tyrell said she’s almost too old to have kids (with Loras)
3. She is drinking wine and the only time she touched her stomach or talked about kids was to manipulate her brothers.
Maybe she’s making Frankenstein monsters with Qyburn that she thinks of as babies. Or maybe she’s just started menopause, I don’t know.
I could be wrong, but I wouldn’t put it past her to lie about it.
Wait why do we want Jon to marry one of his sister/cousins? Where did that come from? The Starks don’t even do that, so I don’t imagine that happening
The more I think about it, the more I doubt everyone will be on the same page regarding the war with Cersei. We need some conflict on the Stark/Targ side as well to justify the 3 long episodes left. Dany lost almost her entire army in one night, the North and Vale are tired from fighting – with the Northerners being the ones who have suffered the most and need to rebuild during winter with limited supplies. And I don’t know if everyone will be happy to go from one great war to a petty war regardless of Dany’s assistance.
The war for the dawn you can justify because it’s a war for humanity and everyone dies if they fail, but can you justify another war when the purpose is to fight once more over a chair? I guess we shall see. Sansa still wants Northern independence, Tyrion has divided loyalties, Dany is unwilling to let go of power (we will have to see how Jorah’s death impacts her too), and Jon’s parentage is still on the table (we haven’t seen the full impact of that yet in my opinion). There’s also Bran, who I think is more involved in the politics of the realm than people give him credit for and boy do I feel validated right now haha.
I guess we shall see how things progress.
Tron79,
Cersei will never have another baby and she knows it. Whether she was/is pregnant or not, she knows the woods witch was correct that her 3 children would die and that is that. That’s why she looked so sad when Euron brought up making her pregnant.
(I think she’s faking a pregnancy – and Qyburn has been working on a surrogate arrangement)
Is there any significance to the fact that Cersei is wearing something other than black, and that her big “epaulettes” are gold rather than silverish?
If I may offer my opinion once again on the NK facial expressions: watch that portion carefully. He’s staring down at Bran, waiting for Bran to realize his predicament and cower. Bran does not cower and stares right back. You can see a slight change in the NK’s expression, one that looks like puzzlement and deep thought as to why this wheel-chair bound little upstart isn’t showing the slightest fear. NK then comes to conclusion that if Bran isn’t afraid, there has to be a reason for it and … the sudden turn to fend off Arya. Ha. For all the NK’s greenseeing abilities, he never accounted for her abilities. Defeat enough, NK out.
kathy,
I worry for Jon and Arya. Out of all the Starks, I think Sansa is sure to live.
And I think Gendry will live, and may be the default heir to the throne.
Flayed Potatoes,
No good deed goes unpunished for Dany. It’s pissing me off.
Lannister red and gold. She is out of mourning and ready to go full on evil queen.
RG,
Raenarys,
😂😂
I don’t know. Sansa’s not exactly a show-off and they’ve shown her being conflicted (but not sorry) about sentencing LF.
Prepare to get shitted on, this place isn’t exactly Jonsa-friendly..
I have a hard time believing Sansa will spend the rest of the season up in the North where there is nothing much to do (except ruling? but we already know she’s good at that).
The Game of Thrones is Sansa’s arena. I don’t know if the kidnapping thing will happen but I can definitely see her facing Cersei one last time. And prevail.
kevin1989,
I personally really don’t give sh*t about IMDB ratings. THe only rank list I care about is my own. “The End” from LOST is also relatively low compared to many other episodes and yet it’s one of my favorite episodes of all time and so far incredibly unrivaled in terms of sparking emotions in my case.
Also, those couple thousands who put 1/10 to “THe Long Night” obviously only know 1 and 10 rating… that’s how it usually is.
Yep, that thought occured to me also… I guess out of respect for their fallen brothers in arms? Being cremated by a dragon isn’t an honorable or a respectful send off 😉
El cojudo,
She will never go “mad”. However, she may go ballistic if she’s betrayed by Jon, the Starks and the Northerners she helped at great personal cost. That would be totally understandable as far as I’m concerned. They would have used her, chewed her up and spit her out.
The only thing that gives me hope it won’t happen is that this would make for a tragic ending, not a bittersweet one. It would be way beyond bitter, in my opinion.
Only tragic from Dany’s POV. There are 5 other main characters in Arya, Sansa, Jon, Tyrion and Bran.
Is it just me or did Melisandre arrive from the exact direction of the dead army/WW? She seemed to. She then went inside the castle and looked directly at Arya. Later, the NK touches Arya. Could it be that was the plan all along?
Why did Bran look at the NK’s chest, back up to his eyes and the NK then looked taken aback? Bran knew what Arya was about to do, or more?
One more thing. They love saying Kit can’t act yet the most moving thing for me of the episode was Jon looking so desperate and realizing there was absolutley nothing he could do to save the day. The only other time I felt that moved by a character, without them speaking, was Walter White laughing.
Oh, of course, makes perfect sense. Thanks.
I’m sorry but regardless of the endgame couple, I beg to differ about Sansa being “cold-blooded and cruel”. She’s not fiery but she certainly is a strong-willed woman. How does that make her cold-blooded? She doesn’t open up so easily anymore but you can’t deny that she shared a number of sincere, tender moments with both Arya and Jon. And Theon.
And Tyrion, which actually surprised the heck out of me. She was so womanly in that scene, so much more mature than the Sansa of the wedding chamber, girlish and frightened. She actually smiled at Tyrion, complimented him and stated her case against a “remarriage” scenario in a kind but effective, reasonable way. I absolutely love the way Sansa has turned out. Naysayers be damned, I think Sophie has nailed every nuance of this Lady perfectly.
Dealing with Cersei at this point is a military question, not a political one. There isn’t really anything Sansa could do; the only things her notional expertise might be relevant to would be a diplomatic strategy aimed at peeling away Cersei’s allies, but Cersei basically doesn’t have a base of support beyond some paid goons and an evil pirate.
A probable conflict to occur between the Targ/stark alliance could be should their forces go on the offensive or remain defensive.
Daenerys will certainly want to go after Cersei and take her out ASAP.
Whereas, imo, the northern alliance will want to take time to recover and utilize winter’s natural defense against soldiers of summer.
I guess I need stronger reading glasses. I don’t see Brienne or Jaime in any of the pics. Would one of you kind people direct an old-ish fan to the right pic? I want to see Jaime and Brienne and Pod standing together, that thought gives me no end of pleasant feelings.
I think military wise they are completely screwed. The preview ep really highlights how fucked their army is with Sansa and Arya looking alarmed at how much the Unsullied have shrunk. I suspect Jon’s heritage will come into play and Sansa can play a role there for sure.
Thronetender,
Bless you for saying that. I’ve admired Sophie’s acting for a long time. That woman always nails every scene perfectly imho. Even 11y old annoying Sansa lol
Perhaps. But Cersei has more than one card up her sleeve, otherwise she’d be dead by now right? And neither Jon or Dany are very good at the GoT. Sansa hasn’t come this far to just stay in WF and not have a bigger payoff in the end. Plus, Cersei definitely has unfinished business with her…
Oh, we’re fucked then. IMHO nobody has exactly been a military/tactical genius, not Jon, not Tyrion, not Dany. Somebody better step up with better fighting strategy than what’s been shown so far.
Che,
Here’s a compromise. What is its Arya wearing John’s face?
Or even better what if this whole time Arya has really been Jaqen wearing Aryas face 🤣🤣🤣
Lord Parramandas,
Agreed! I knew the final season was going to divide fans even before the cast members said that not everyone will be happy. That’s how endings normally go. It’ll probably be the same with the books, assuming Martin ever finishes them. Once Martin starts disproving theories fans have been coming up with the past 20 years, it’ll leave a lot of people disappointed.
2nd pic, if you zoom in. Straight back from Arya and to the left of Royce.
kevin1989,
Does this means that Beyond the Wall is better than The Long Night?
Beyond the Wall has a 9.2 rating.
🙂 thanks
I can’t think of any. The reason Cersei talked about Sansa in past seasons was her belief that she and Tyrion murdered Joffrey, but Olenna copped to that back in Season 7.
None of this means that writers won’t cram in another scene with them, but I don’t imagine it would be more than them glowering at each other.
Exactly! When a story that sparked so much speculation finally comes to an end, it’s almost bound to end with polarizing reaction. I imagine that at the end of the show, fandom will be completely split. The writers even stated so many times that not everyone will be satisfied. Hopefully the show creates a lasting legacy for significant portion of the fandom who will always “fight” to keep the show in good memory.
“The Long Night” is low because it has a series of 1/10 ratings. And voting 1 star for such an episode is a bit ridiculous in my opinion.
Che,
Same here, sometimes I love her like in 8×03. Sometimes I think she is a little bit rude. But that’s why I love her character.
Tron79,
Are we sure Cerseis baby is in Cerceis belly and not that poor shame lady?
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Fighter of the Night Man, their third brother
RG,
Why do we need to mention little finger? He’s dead. And his actions don’t erase the fact that Jamie fought against the Starks and attacked Ned
Kevin1989,
The Septa is def the surrogate and the daddy isn’t Jaime.
Jackie Ackerman,
True, and I think that will happen. Dany helpt the north and now she ask them for help with cersei and they will be: no sorry, fight your own war. We’re going independent.
As i stated before the season started. I think dany will lose her shit. But she will be pushed to it. It will feel tragic and we understand dany.
A Northerner Never Forgets,
Well I wasn’t a fan of the guy so I don’t want to mention him at all lol-but it is glaringly obvious that absolutely no one-Including Varys who considered himself the anti-LF and Tyrion, who was almost thrown out the moon door because of LF’s lie about the dagger, and Jon who threatened LF before leaving for Dragonstone-has even wondered where the guy that lasted 7 seasons is or made a quip about being wary of she wolves-nothing.
It’s odd.
ShameShameShame,
It’s so easy to see that happening but ugh, it’s awful.
I wouldn’t put it past her to lie about it either. However, I saw a plan brewing earlier this season where it looks like she wants to pass off Jaime’s baby as Euron’s. I really think there is a good possiblity they are going there. I haven’t seen her drink much wine. I saw her take a sip when she was with Euron. I thought she did that to keep up appearances. She wasn’t taking full drinks. Yes, things would be much simpler if she wasn’t really pregnant, but I can write a pretty good case from the evidence given that D&D want her pregnant and that will be part of the drama going forward. But I’ve been proven wrong before! I was one who thought Jon wouldn’t ride a dragon, since he was a much better ground warrior.
I have to write out some things about Cersei because it’s bugging me. If she is the new villain we are supposed to all hate, I’m not so sure I can jump into that idea. I really do not see Cersei as a character I want killed necessarily. When she blew up everyone in the Sept, I really only felt bad for Queen Margaery. I was with Cersei that I really wanted to see the High Sparrow get his comeuppance. Yes, Cersei did horrible things to Elia Sand, but since Elia killed innocent Myrcella, I didn’t have any sympathy for Elia. I wish Cersei wouldn’t have killed Tyene though. She was great with Bronn. Cersei wanted Joffrey to send Ned to the wall. She didn’t want him executed. Yes, she did lock him up, but I blame most of Ned’s death on LF for putting it all in motion (and Joffrey for being a c’nt)
I am looking forward to finding out what D&D have in mind. I really am. I’m hoping it’s not all about Cersei being the villain though. It’s fine with me if Dany wants to claim the throne, but I just don’t feel a huge investment in wanting to see Cersei killed for what she’s done, and I still think it’s likely she’s pregnant and will try to pass it off as Euron’s. I didn’t really see anything about the surrogate idea that others have mentioned.
onedon,
True, and for me it is. The long night is my least favorite battle of the show. (but still a master piece like every got battle in my opinion). But still I would give it a 8.5/9.0 so I can see why I ranked the lowest of them all. But that’s just my opinion, and not the one everyone should have.
For me it’s. Hardhome > battle of the bastards > blackwater > spoils of war > beyond the wall > Watchers on the Wall > the long night.
But I have hopes that the battle with cersei will top at least the bottom half and maybe become first or second in my list.
Young Dragon,
That was about the final itself. They stated that will devide fans. Episode 6. They made it clear that episode 3 will be the episode everybody love and will make film history (that means they were under the impression almost every critic would love that episode which they didn’t)
I think D&D expected that we all would love episode 3 but we didn’t.
Now for episode 6. We will have to wait 2.5 weeks what they meant with the fans being decided. Because that’s what they were talking about.
Lord Parramandas,
But they expected the long night to be in good taste with almost everyone. Their statement was about the final itself. And even when I didn’t like the long night as much I would like, I expect to like the ending alot and maybe even be my favorite episode of the show.
Tron79,
Nah. Cersei can die and I won’t shed a tear. I love Lena, and D&D have definitely toned the character down and given her more nuance. But she is still awful.
It should be Jaime AND Tyrion who do it, though. But I t wouldn’t shock me if it is Sansa. That seems like something D&D would go with.
Lord Parramandas,
That also happened with winds of winter and beyond the wall itself. I personally find a 1 star rating ridiculous to give it that. It’s still one of the best TV has to offer out there. But it’s not perfect in my opinion so a 10 is also not a rating that I think fits with it. So a 9 is perfectly acceptable for it. A masterpiece with little mistakes but still highly enjoyable. Unfortunately got has the habit to have too many great episodes. Even the lowest is still amazing.
What a shame 😂😂
RG,
And still we as got fans will enjoy it greatly when it happens.
I’m wondering if the baby will have daddies eyes.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Oh I think you will shad a tear if it’s Jaime. Not because cersei died but because the emotion that will happen with Jaime as a character.
Did you read the Twitter exchange between T-Pain and Joe Dempsie or is “Alexa, play…” a common joke I just didn’t know about until now? LOL anyway. 😂
https://mobile.twitter.com/TPAIN/status/1122687066633117696
Kevin1989,
But they could mean that fans will be disappointed that the White Walkers aren’t the final antagonists.
I don’t know if I’ll shed a tear, but I don’t think it’s necessary. I would sentence her to life in a black cell or something, especially if she really is pregnant. If it does happen, I will be OK with it since it’s prophesied (but actually I don’t think the show has brought up the prophecy, I think it’s just the books.
Kevin1989,
Also, did they say everyone would love episode 3? All I remember them saying was how long and hard they worked on the battle and how it was going to be the longest battle in film history.
Che,
I was assuming , she thinks that Raeghal is dead and he returns
Although I admit my excitement level is now way down (can’t believe I’m actually saying that, never could’ve imagined it), I will of course look forward to Cersei’s demise and whatever twists, turns, shocks, and/or surprises the final episodes may deliver. And simply finding out what happens to everybody who makes it to the end…even if things feel much flatter and lower-staked to me at this point…hope that can change somehow. Fingers crossed.
I’m hoping the next episode starts off immediately after the events of “The Long Night.” I still need to process everything. Also, I’ve seen the episode four times already but I didn’t notice Alys Karstark among the dead in the Godswood. [Book Spoiler] I just want her to survive so she can marry her wildling husband!! 😭
Also, in my head the ginger I see with the men of the Night’s Watch is latrine digger Bryan. He survived!! I do like how all the groups are separated and a representative is lighting the pyres for their respective fallen men and women. Also, I as an audience member have not yet been told if the Golden Company knows who they’re fighting against OR if they have already been told by Euron. And perhaps this has already been mentioned but it looks like Sansa is wearing a Daenerys-like hair fashion which makes me wonder if they reconcile or come to some sort of understanding.
Robb with Whispering Wood and Jaime using same tactics for Highgarden. Letting Dany et al take Casterly Rock knowing full well they couldn’t hold it. Betting on Edmure’s image of him as Kingslayer to take back Riverrun without bloodshed. I’d say those are some pretty good tactics. Dany used a rather clever tactic to acquire the Unsullied army back in season 2. Not even Jorah and Selmy knew what she was up to.
This win won’t be about fighting strategy. It will be about pulling some clever Tywin-esque moves to outsmart Cersei.
Don’t underestimate these characters. There are some geniuses in the midst, provided the writers do them justice.
Jackie Ackerman,
It’s almost like people just hate her no matter what.
Well, the entire fandom seems to have just forgotten that the armies of Dorne are sworn to Daenerys, so I guess the show writers will forget, too. They missed their boat ride, so I guess they can’t march over land even given a season and a half. And somehow sacking Highgarden means all the soldiers of the Reach are now totally out of play, even though they’d now be sworn to Sam. And of course the remaining soldiers of the Westerlands would definitely prefer staying loyal to Cersei rather than fight for Jaime and Tyrion. And the Tully army that was spared will just be ignored, too. Jon and Dany are down to like 500 fighters, even though in reality whatever is left of Westeros would rally behind them to take out Cersei, who has betrayed and tried to destroy pretty much literally every great house on the continent.
Gotta find a way to make us halfway kind of believe Cersei can actually win or that at least it will seriously cost our heroes to defeat her. Our heroes who include an all-seeing Wizard that can spy on every plan she makes and also warg Ser Pounce and claw her eyes out in the middle of the night while she sleeps. And they’ve got a faceless woman on their side. Don’t wanna make it too easy, though.
Just wanted to say it here: from the moment the episode release, I have posted 5 reviews about how the episode was disappointing and why it betrayed the White Walkers who were hyped up to be the ultimate villain since the starting shot of the show, and the books. All 5 of those reviews were marked as spam and never displayed. Watchers on the Wall is just another shill site, that censor negative posts.
Why would they be sworn to Sam? Sam renounced his inheritance when he joined the Night’s Watch (which at this point probably could not be said to exist, but that doesn’t suddenly put him back in the line of succession), and if Randyll Tarly was made Warden of the South, it was by Cersei, so anybody who recognized the validity of that appointment would be allied with Cersei.
I agree, though, that pretty much the whole country should be turned against Cersei at this point. The writers can keep talking about how Cersei’s power is brittle and whatnot, but at some point they need to actually have her experience consequences for all her actions.
So, did anyone tell Varys that Littlefinger is dead? His birds?
Could it be at all possible that those Targaryan ships are Dany recalling the Second Sons ?
First post, but couldn’t resist anymore. I feel like a lot of people take Arya’s name for granted. While it is a variation of the spelling of “Aria” it would be silly to think it a coincidence. Maybe Arya Is the “song” of Ice and Fire.
Kevin1989,
Kevin1989,
We have the same top 2.
I believe they meant the final may be divisive, i feel that way as well. I also think that when people see the next two episodes opinions may change about “The Long Night”.
The director said he wanted to direct episode 4 n 5, because it was the middle and end. Episode 3 was just the begining.
The good news is Winterfell is finally out of danger. The bad news is four Starbucks have already opened in the courtyard.
12:20 AM
I just watched Episode 3.
All I can say is….
ASNAWPTWP!!!!
With the f*cking dagger flip!!!!
Hey talvikorppi! There we have it!
Only Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess That Was Promised can bring the dawn!
👸🏻
I didn’t think they’d go with the Mothership plot, and my grand tinfoil theory is shot to sh*t, but who cares!
Adam,
What, logic?
Why are you logicking?
/s
Ten Bears,
WHOOHOO!!!
We’ve been waiting breathlessly for your reactions!
🗡🐺
Thronetender,
Bran? Perhaps this is the time that he starts opening up about what he knows, and makes suggestions that make sense. Something I’d like to see, anyhow
Won’t just be their dead, they will have to burn all the half-rotted Wights too…
I reckon Dany is sailing to Dragonstone to plot the next move (in the South)
My thoughts at this point is they can legitimise Gendry as Lord Baratheon, and that will then help get any fighting age Stormlands/Baratheon soliders onside to bolster her depleted forces – plus help shake off the whole “foreign invader” thing
Thing here is, whatever Cersei attempts to do, they have the capability to suss whatever it is through Bran and so despite being depleted have far superior intelligence…
I know it’s probably nothing but did anyone else notice that everyone except Dany is in their usual black clothing? Cersei’s is also not black anymore. Is this foreshadowing something? Or did I just miss their clothing color change in a previous episode?
I can see the people/Soldiers of Horn Hill getting behind Sam, after all he is the last male Tarly, his Sister was betrothed to someone else and may even have been married at this point? And the Tarly’s were pro-Targaryen during Roberts rebellion
As for the Reach as a whole, highly unlikely given Randyll Tarly turned on the Tyrells which will be off-putting to the Nobility, plus along with Bronn went and bullied a lot of the smallfolk out of their winter stores so they’ll be looking death in the face regardless of victory over the White Walkers
Frankly the show will do with the Reach what they did with Dorne after the Martells are gone – just ignore it
Wolfish,
I’m still processing it all. I was surprised that Jon didn’t really do anything but fly around in s blizzard and then yell at undead Viserion, and Bran didn’t do anything but sit there – space out for a few minutes – and sit some more. I thought Tyrion would come up with a game-changing brainstorm… but he just hung out.
But no worries! This was the Arya-centric episode I’d been waiting for, and in that respect it exceeded all expectations. Even when I’d joked about how cool it would be if Arya used the VS dagger flip move on NK, I never really thought it would happen.
She saved Sandor!
She saved the world!
A bunch of other characters went out like heroes….
Now I’ve got to go back and look for the breadcrumbs I’d overlooked. I didn’t think Beric had been brought back by the Lord of Light six times just to be there to have a Hold the Door moment to protect the Princess That Was Promised. Same with Melisandre: I thought she switched from Stannis to Jon and then Jon + Dany because she’d realized one or both would fulfill the prophecy.
But all along, it was always about ASNAWPTWP. 👸🏻😃
kathy,
maybe jon and sanza is another form of fire and ice. I do not think that jon would have any bad feelings towards cat at all. I think that he would feel nothing but sympathy for a woman that had lived a lie almost all of her married life. he would understand cats feelings.
but, i think sanza is more likely to end up with tyrion.
Dolorous Methuselah,
Yeah, I agree. I think it might just be the high ranking deaths in this ceremony. I think everyone else must have just been thrown into the burning trenches and made full use of all the fuel already alight and then covered over as back fill.
RG,
Yeah, well I would have thought after 0803 that we all would have learned by now just how exact the science of prophecy was :\
BeardedOnion,
I disagree. That event would be tragic no matter how or what angle you look at it from. They owe daeny a debt, and all the starks know that ned would admonish them no end if they forswore that debt. any and all decency dictates that the north honour that debt to daeny, the one that put everything on the line, even when the head of the lannister houshold reneged.
And, it isn’t a war for a throne. It is a war for the future. They were fighting for the survival of man against the ww. now they are fighting for the future of westeros. Do you think that any individual in westeros is safe while it is ruled by a person who herds up the multitudes and corals them within a keep to be used as a meat shield. All the thinking people of westeros must look to their future now.
Ghost’s Lunch,
I doubt it. They are all still part of the 7 kingdoms and daeny intends to rule them all. She may want to get control of them all only so she can break the wheel and form the first government controlled by a senate, but never the less, she first wants to establish control over them. She can not break the wheel of something that she does not have control of.
Ugh, please. Last week was bad enough when everybody already saw her married with Theon. Now it’s Tyrion, even though Sansa clearly stated that they wouldn’t work. What’s it gonna be next week? Why are you all so obsessed who Sansa ends up with lmao
What debt? It was a battle of mankind against death. It wasn’t Jon’s war. If Dnerys hadn’t fought, there would have been nothing left of Westeros to rule but ashes.
Or rather, Dny will demand the war-weary Northerners to follow her south, because she feels a debt is owed. Right after this terrible battle, I’m not sure it helps the North warm up to her.
Is it just me or Ghost has Shrunk?
He used to look bigger than that and Nymeria looked much bigger than him last season…
I think it’s something else if I’m remembering the filming again, as I stated earlier in spoiler tags. I think that’s the part we didn’t like. It couldn’t be episode 3 because they were under the impression episode 3 would be critical acclaimed by all, making film history (which they did with the directing and acting part), it was something from the last episode they talked about.
As for the episode itself, most of the people who had critic on the episode it wasn’t because of the dead of the NK, it wasn’t the visuals or the acting. It was inconsistencies in the story:
– Arya coming out of nowhere killing the NK. She could be the one killing the Night King but there should be more of a problem with the NK himself meaning that there should have been an small fight with others before Arya finishes him. For me that wasn’t a problem.
– The battle tactics, every GoT battle uses perfectly executed battle strategies. There was a huge thinking with it how everything should be put in place, they looked at history what happen there, like in the battle of the bastard that dumping piles of bodies on each other by ramsay was used in our history before and they won because of it (meaning Jon should have lost and that’s true if the Vale army wasn’t there). In the Long Night, the battle plans didn’t make sense at all, Catapults were in the wrong place, the wrong people were places on the wrong place, something they though about in the past.
– Too many people lived who should have died, in the past they had clever ways to let those people live, remember Sandor in blackwater, he got saved by Bronn and later he thought fuck this shit I’m going away. Now they are overrun by 100 wights per person for more than 15 minutes of screen time and they win. This was a big fault in the written part. And I know a lot of people that that was the moment the excitement felt away.
– The Library scene felt to much like Walkers from the Walking Dead instead of those of this show, in this show they never walk around like zombies, they stand still or they attack heavily.
– The crypts. In 7×07 The wight couldn’t escape a wooden box, and now in the crypts 100 years old bodies or older could punch through very hard stone of their coffins.
For me it felt like D&D wrote this episode in an hour and let the hard work to the actors and directors and crew. Those people deserved a script they delivered in the past seasons. I gave the acting, directing, VFX a huge 10, but the writing wasn’t up what they delivered in the past battles (or rains of Castamere), it was halfway in between their usual writing and a Marvel movie.
Do I like the battle of course, I will watch it over and over again in the next weeks, but for me its obvious it has his problems that in the past they hadn’t, the only problem in the past battles was VSX and for me that’s not a problem because that’s only a bonus if that’s huge.
Netheb,
So, you are telling me that if the starks forswore their obligation to daeneries now that they would be totally at ease with their conscience? That they wouldn’t feel that their father (where ever he is now) wouldn’t be judging them harshly?
As far as I know they don’t censor a thing. Many have stated their problems with the episode and none was censored. But the sites sometimes have problems with sending messages, so maybe a problem that you should adress that they could fix.
Sean C.,
Even with those armies they stand a chance against Cersei. 20.000 GC that are one of the best fighters out there with the best armor etc, all inside a wall. The military of the other kingdoms are almost non-existing.
I expect that Cersei also upgraded her dragon bolts and mounted multiple on the walls of KL meaning dragons can’t be used, (title sequence somehow give us a clue about that), I expect at least one dead dragon before the end.
But we shall see, I’m excited again.
RG,
Raenarys,
I imagine they’ll either have discussed it off screen as it’s not really that important for the plot, or they’ve not mentioned it because they had a horde of zombies at the door. No doubt Varys will make some quip in the next episode.
I really hope Arya isn’t the one to kill Cersei. That’ll give her three of the biggest kills in the whole story- it’d be overkill (pun intended).
Besides- it’s all she’s talked about, it there would be zero surprise if she actually was Cersei’s killer in the end.
They’re all grown adults now, I’m not sure they always think of what their ancestors would say before acting lol
More seriously, the North and the Starks – at least Sansa and Arya- are already extremely ill-at-ease with the bargain Jon made. He will follow Dany, for now, but I think that the darker Dnerys will become, the more Jon is going to wonder about his loyalties. I mean, he has deceived Ygritte before. Danerys is also doubting him and his family anyway. I definitely can see their alliance turning sour.
Onedon,
I think I understand the big part now.
Episode 3: Dany saved their asses gave up their armies. I know it also her battle but she lost everything.
Episode 4: The North decide not to fight for her, I think that part in the trailer is her at the Iron Island not the north where people are cheering. I think the north will say we’re tired of fighting. Dany will be on her own and feel betrayed and used (and with good reason)
Episode 5: build further with that.
Ten Bears,
Finally Ten Bears is back.
I loved this scene. The NK was truly baffled as to why he was all IDGAF.
Clearly, Bran knew what was in store, as he’d been in his raven nap to check that all the pieces he (and/or the LoL) had put in place were in position for NK to be destroyed
Also- whilst Theon’s death was a truly beautiful moment, and he really had a meaningful end with full absolution from Bran, I can’t help thinking Bran woke up at that moment deliberately. Not just to give Theon his well deserved redemption, but to ensure Theon carried out that final act, in order to give Arya time to get into position.
I really love the fact that the demise of the NK was a collaborative effort involving many characters (often unbeknownst to them), with lil Arya giving the killing blow.
I wonder if the funeral pyre scene will be extra emotional with each person lighting the pyre of someone significant to them. If so I expect it to be Tormund & Arya- Beric, Sansa- Theon, Jon- Lyanna, Dany- Jorah, Grey Worm- Qhono (Dothraki), Sam- Edd. Am I missing someone else worthy of being shown on the pyres?
Well it all depends of your criteria of ranking the episodes. In my case, a large-scale battle episode automatically has 95% chance to be in my top 10, regardless of my expectations prior to it. And a build-up-only episode can have a perfect execution of every scene but it will never land among my 10/10 rated episodes because… well, it’s a build-up and doesn’t have some grand moment in it.
Another thing in my case: episodes from later seasons have much greater chance to get a high rating compared to episodes from earlier seasons. Simply for the reason as I’m way more emotionally attached to characters and every spoken line that may seem casual to me in early seasons now holds extreme weight. It’s like that with pretty much every TV show I watch. On my ranklist, my highest rated S1 episode occupies no.20. In S2, “Blackwater” is high because it’s a battle episode but the second S2 episode is only at no.30. Most of my top rated GoT episodes are from later seasons onwards (S4+).
So regarding “THe Long Night”, it fit not one, but two crucial criterias…. being a grand visual episode and providing emotional impact bigger than any GoT episode before for me (the only two rivaling it being “Battle of the Bastards” and “THe Winds of Winter”). So even prior to watching it, I just knew that it’s a serious candidate to fit at the top of my list. Who knows… maybe the series finale can beat it, but for that to happen, it needs to provide serious emotional impact in my case and have a grand feeling at same time (not necessarily a battle, but it needs to feel “bigger” than usual episodes).
I just watched the episode preview and Dany is standing in front of the Stark fireplace when she raises her cup and people start cheering. The reverse shot from that scene shows Tormund in the front of the shot with his back turned (clearly him by outline and drinking horn). I reckon that is at Winterfell. I think it may have been cut together deceptively and they are cheering something else – perhaps celebrating defeating the NK and his army. Maybe she said something the north would appreciate – something along the lines of “The rest of the realm may never truly know the sacrifice you gave to save their lives, nor the valour and courage you showed in the face of certain death, but we I will remember, and the north will remember.” Something corny like that to pull at their northern heartstrings and win them over a little bit. Perhaps she may even have caved to Sansa’s demands – what about the north? Maybe she has given them similar boon to the one she gave the iron islanders? What I doubt is that that gathering is cheering the prospect of another war.
Truthfully though, the north should want to see Cersei defeated. Cersei isn’t going to let the north remain an independent kingdom; she’ll come take it back and without Dany’s dragons, they don’t stand a chance.
Well, Dny certainly helped but it was “Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess That Was Promised” who saved everybody’s asses 😉 I’d like her to get some credit from the other characters!
Also, it’s a stretch to say Dnarys lost “everything”! The Dothraki are gone but she still has her two dragons, and a significant part of her Unsullied army.
Agreed. They’re misleading us when they show the Northerners cheering Dnerys (who btw stands ALONE at the main table!?). The clever thing for her to do would be to promise to grant them independence once she claims the IT. That would help ensure Sansa’s loyalty. But unfortunately, she’s too obsessed with her 7 kingdoms. Her thirst for power doesn’t bode well for her future..
Che,
I agree. I think it’s cut to make it seem like they’re cheering about the next war, but I think its more likely they’re cheering that they won against the dead. It seems like her dialogue fits the bit where she is standing in between Varys and Missandei, which is a different scene.
They are dealing with Cersey a character who knows no more scruple. Expect her to meet again in the dragon pit to negotiate surrender and repeat the great Sept blow up. In this scenario a lot main characters of both sides would finally die and people will be more than happy to have Cersey killed.
Mango,
Yes, dragons seem to be an advantage. However, the dragons only have the power to destroy. I just can’t imagine that Jon would agree to unleash them on King’s Landing. If Daenerys doesn’t want to be queen of the ashes she has to find another way. Furthermore, Cersei is most likey prepared for such an event and Qyburn has already transformed the dungeons into a giant scorpion factory. If Cersei were to hold the population of King’s Landing hostage she would also count on the Starks and Tyrion to talk Daenerys out of using the dragons.
All in all I think this topic could lead to an uneasy alliance between Team Stark and Team Targaryen in the remaining episodes. Jon, Davos & co would not feel comfortable using the Dragons in warfare against the living. But to Daenerys the dragons are her main source of strength. She has truly lost a lot since she came to Westeros. Her troops are currently in a bad shape even with the support of the North and the Vale. What other option does she have if not using them? Diplomacy will not be an option this time. Maybe she could call in Daario and the Second Sons for help. But this will put her in another moral dilemma: If Daenerys really decides to bring the Second Sons to Westeros she would risk the freedom of the former slaves in Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen. The Second Sons currently keep the peace there in her name. Such a decision could present conflict with Greyworm and Missandei. And then there also is the parentage reveal…
In the next two episodes Daenerys will definitely be tested and will come to make crucial decisions. I’m curious if she will choose fire and blood or find another way. Her character is wonderfully complex and her actions will show us who she really is. Either way I’m really looking forward to it.
The scene with people cheering is Winterfell. It’s in the great hall. You can see Royce, Jon and Tormund if you pause it.
Bianca Funk,
how else are they going to get rid of the bodies, the sheer number of them would make burials impossible. Disease etc would spread way before they could get them all in the ground.
Just the only way to get rid of the huge amount of bodies.
Ghost was always the runt of the litter. So was Jon (height wise) ironically. He did look really small up on the battlements. I thought he looked back to his usual size charging with the Dothraki. Nymeria is a beast! She is huge.
Netheb,
It’s amusing how when it comes to dany ..you say that yes she helped but at the same time North remembers and how they has losses in the past..
But now to the Starks they are grown up and they don’t need to think about the past ..
Can someone remind Varys that he is a spy and he knows the secret passages of KL and he has his little birds to do his bidding and someone should teach tyrion about the history of Westeros once again …particularly the chapter called Blood and Cheese..
I guess that will solve the issue of cersei too easily and we can’t have a mad queen in Dany…so Let’s carry on with the whole dany going full maniac..
The way they edited it makes us think that Dnerys will successfully rally the troops, but I think they’re only cheering at her making a toast celebrating them all for winning.
The Starks and the North are not the same thing.
I believe that Dany has a great potential for good but that sense of entitlement and grandiosy that Viserys passed on to her is getting the best of her.
She was the Breaker of Chains but in Westeros it is “Bend the knee or die”, and that’s not how a hero behaves. Power is corrupting her, and that makes her a very tragic character.
Bianca Funk,
Burning the dead is just practical. There must be thousands of bodies… Digging graves for thousands in the frozen ground would take ages… honestly people, THINK!
Onedon,
My thoughts exactly. When I first saw the episod, I hated it with all my heart. But now, when I finally realized what point the showrunners were trying to make and where the story is going, I have to admit that the episode was absolutely genious: 20 out of 10 at least.
Ten Bears,
I’m happy for you, but don’t rejoice too much. No good deed goes unpaid and retribution for the ASNAWP moment might be bigger, than we can stomac.
I thought that initially but changed my mind on the rewatch. He joined Dany burning the ranks of undead in the field, before he took off after the NK on Viserion.
The NK charged into the castle on his dragon and then Jon on Raeghal attacked him, knocking the NK off so he lost control of his WMD and ultimately injured Viserion to such an extent as to prevent him utterly destroying the castle and it’s occupants.
So he did do a fair bit.
Jon should have armed himself beforehand with a dragon glass dagger. When he got pinned down, throwing it into Viserion would have freed him to continue his path towards Bran.
Shouting at the dragon seemed daft. I can only imagine it was out of sheer frustration but how that came across on screen just ended up making lots of the audience eye roll.
Haha! It’s a common joke, especially on Instagram.
Dragons certainly help when it comes to battles but you can bet Cersei has been busy making more scorpions, not just one. Did you notice that’s part of the opening credits sequence, from about 1:18, they show the scorpion and dragon head below Kings Landing. Sure that’s in there for a reason…
There is a theory gaining traction on Reddit that Jon saw Arya headed for the Godswood and that he stood to distract Viserion so she could get there. If you listen carefully when he stands and tells, it sounds a lot like he is yelling “Go, Go, Go!”
Ha! It’s a common joke, especially on Instagram 🙂
I suppose it’s possible? She certainly doesn’t have enough troops to face the Golden Company at this time…
I’m reassured that this is all going to end the way GRRM would have liked:
a shortcrust bake off between Hot Pie and Cersei, winner takes the Iron Throne
Cliohna,
Ha! It’s common joke, especially on Instagram 😉
Apollo,
I couldn’t agree in regards to Arya… I think Jamie will be the one to kill Cersei. Which would leave the question: Whose green eyes does Arya shut forever?
JSchmeh,
It’s a shame that wasn’t clear if that was the case. I’ve just rewatched and it does sound like Go. What do the subtitles say?
Raenarys,
I’m sure I saw a recent interview with Maisie where she mentions Walder Frey had green eyes, but it seems he had brown eyes, so perhaps I was mistaken.
LF had grey green eyes in the books (though not on the show).
Keep in mind, Arya has killed a lot of people, some will have have green eyes presumably, but I’m guessing it needs to be someone significant.
Apollo,
Walder Frey was my initial thought as well. And you’re right, she has killed quite a number of folks already, so one of them was bound to have green eyes.
I know damn well we’re smart enough to know Jon was NOT saying go go go! I refuse to believe this group/blog believes something so foolish.
I saw that theory on facebook, and it made me cringe. Come on guys… There is literally no evidence supporting Jon spotting Arya, thus causing a distraction. I’m disappointed in some of you!
Dragonbringer,
You sir, you bring me hope. It looks like the whole fandom wants her to go mad. Now, what if Jon turns mad ? isn’t he also a Targ? or how about Sansa? she anyway looks mad to me.. she trusted all the vicious people even until last season and won’t trust really nice people.. even her own brother. How about she going mad while counting her grain store? isn’t the smartest person ever supposed to know who is trust worthy and who isn’t?
My subtitles say [yells]. Now that maybe because I’m watching it on my phone using the xfinity app. I would be interested to know if it is the same on HBO Now or HBO Go.
Raenarys,
You’re no doubt right. Trying to make something nonsensical make sense lol
The dragon fight lightened up! Shame I couldn’t see this at the time, as it’s epic and the darkness has robbed the audience of a great moment.
https://mobile.twitter.com/carohuntz/status/1123701476902232065
“Yells”
It does sound like he’s saying go, but I wouldn’t read into it that he saw Arya and is yelling “Go,” at her. I don’t think they would leave that so open-ended. Unless next episode they have a conversation where she says “Thanks for distracting that dragon for me.” I doubt it, just a fan theory to make him actually seem useful this episode.
After I just rewatched that scene, the bit immediately afterwards with the “Whoosh” sound and the WW hair moving in the wind has really irritated me 😂 Is that implying Arya was able to run through the circle of wights and WW without being seen? I know she’s stealthy, but come on! In the library, her stealth required slow, calculated movements, not running between the wights unseen. I really wish they’d had her dropping out the tree instead – it still would have been a WTF moment, but one that doesn’t have you scratching your head afterwards going, “I didn’t know Arya could fly and since when was she invisible?”
Ulfie,
Here’s my tinfoil theory: The Night King as we saw him was a body made of ice (which is why he was cubed when Arya stabbed him), but the consciousness inside that body is a warg. Remember when Melisandre made a smoke being to kill Renly? It’s a similar concept. She used fire magic, he uses ice magic. The White Walkers were warging into the dead, which is why they all fall when the White Walker that created them is deprived of an ice body. If the Night King’s ice body is destroyed, the consciousness jumps into something else, if available, like a weirwood tree, or Bran, or Arya. I think that the one-time human consciousness behind the Night King still exists and this isn’t over. He was not defeated, he was delayed. Hence, no look of defeat.
You are right there is no direct evidence. It is like almost every other theory with GOT, people trying to see something that wasn’t explicitly shown. It is possible. She would have had to pass by the dragon to get to the godswood, it does sound like he says “go, go, go.”
That doesn’t mean it is absolute truth, but I think it is more likely than say, Cersie using Sept Unella for a “monster baby”, or some of the other theories people have come up with.
Ghost’s Lunch,
I don’t think D&D will ignore Dorne: if you look closely, there is a scroll with a Martel/Dornish sigil next to Varys. The Reach should also come into play, as well as Stormlands. I’ve always criticised the theory of Gendry’s legitimization, but now I’m totally on board. Genry and Arya have become intimate recently, so by every rule they have to be married ASAP: no way Jon will allow them risking to end up with a bastard and I bet that Gendry wouldn’t want to risk that, either. So, I expect awquard nuptials and that should lead to Gendry’s legitimisation: Jon might be OK with his little sis marrying a blacksmith, but Sansa should insist on Arya acquiring a due social status. In turn, Gendry’s legitimization may trigger the Stormlands to join team Stark-Targarian; Brienne and her father may come into play, too. The Reach will rally behind Sam and his family: I bet he will reconcile with Dany, especilly if he finds her crying by Jorah’s dead body (keep in mind that he promised to find Jorah after the battle).
Sure, Dany will have to sort out her relationship with Jon, too, but I think that Sam will persuade them to marry and claim the IT as king and queen – all the setup for Dany softening and wanting family and friends has already been laid. So, as soon as they mary or at least announce an official engagement, the Seven Kingdoms should start falling on their side like dominoes. I don’t think we’ll see that all on screen: the photos imply that Winterfell will simply start receiving scrolls of support, but the effect will be all the same.
As for the North unwilingness to march to the final war, I think the events will be trigerred by the reveal of Cersei’s plot to assassinate her brothers. Whether Bronn assassinates one of them (most probably Jaime) and gets caugth or simply reveals Cersei’s plans in exchange for a castle and a bride, the effect will be the same: everyone will understand, that there won’t be any safety, as long as Cersei sits on the Iron Throne – she’s a disease and has to be dealt with.
As for Cersei, I think she might complicate her situation even more by killing Euron: she’ll bet on the Golden Company, and there was quite a bit of tension between Harry Stricland and that pirate scum. However, the Golden Company is paid by the Iron Bank, and althought the Iron Bank was highly unwilling to make business with Dany, I think it will be equally willing to make business with Jon. As Tycho Nestoris said, the IB invests in endevours it deems to be successful and conscientiousness which Jon has in abundance is an absolute prerequisite for any endevour to be successful in a long term. Just send Davos to Braavos – he’ll explain.
One way or another, Cersei’s house of cards should start falling appart with an increasing speed in next two episodes, but something bad will happen, too: she’s a cornederd rat and a cornered rat can do a lot of damage. But at the end Team-Targ should prevail.
What an awesome community this is. Reading all the thoughts, comments, and reflections have really helped me clarify what I think of this series both in years past and particularly today.
I am now really looking forward to the rest of the season, particularly with Emilia Clarke saying Episode 5 is even bigger than Episode 3. (Go to @4:35 of this clip on Jimmy Kimmel Live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PMW6cPRW0M ).
In fact, I am now glad that the NK story arc is over. While there could have been more long night, more horror, more ice storms, at the end of the day, the NK and the AoTD represented an epic fantasy trope that was never at the heart of why I loved Game of Thrones. A NK that is all about destroying life is actually not that interesting. GoT is about the complex characters at the heart of the narrative, their purpose and what happens to them. We will see if the writing on the show can actually wind things up for all of us in a way most of us will find satisfying.
I am increasingly gratified with Ep3, including Jon’s story arc. For those who remain saddened or puzzled, I think the message of GoT is that leadership/governing is as important as heroism. Assuming that Jon was never raised from the dead, and that the NK would have found some other way to get around the Wall, the AoTD would be storming down the length of Westeros: No unsullied, no dragon glass, no dragons and no Arya (who only came North because Jon and Sansa took back winterfell) would have meant no Winterfell. And who could have stopped the AoTD after that?
And now we have lots of time to see how the many story lines get wound up. The AeJon/Daenerys claims; Daenerys/the North; Cersei/Gold Company/Euron; the role of the Vale and the Riverlands; questions on whether now having fought for the living, where will Jaime’s loyalties fall; and the many relationships some of are so invested in (including renewed questions around Sansa/Tyrion). And will Cersei’s end be at the hands of Arya (a repeat of narrative I hope the show avoids) or someone else? And I remain curious as to whether Bran’s ability to affect the past is a dangling plot line or will have real impact on the end.
Anyway, keep it coming. No matter where you are coming from, I feel enriched by your thoughts.
JSchmeh,
It just sounded so absurd to me. For Jon to be so very protective of his baby sis/cousin, I just find it hard to believe he would “allow” or be cool with her going after the NK when he’s seen what NK is capable of.
Who knows, maybe Jon and Arya had an off screen convo about how much of a badass assassin she is now and he has major faith in her abilities.
We all know Jon gave her Needle bc he knew Arya wanted to be a fighter. But fighter and assassin are two totally different things.
David A,
With regards to Bran; I think he will be involved in the final twist that GRRM told D&D about all those years ago (Hodor’s origin story being one and Stannis burning Shireen being the other). I think it will be some head-spinning moment to do with the impact he has had through time, or something related to that.
And I agree, this community is amazing. I’ve been coming here daily since Season 5, even during our own long nights (the off-seasons and boy was the last one a loooong night) and I have never looked back. I love it here, even when we’re all disagreeing with each other!
It’s not necessarily what the fandom wants, but there is heavy foreshadowing that Dany is going dark (not “mad” in a clinical sense).
For a few seasons she’s having that tendency to use violence too quickly and too easily. She’s losing her forces, losing people she trusts-including her moral compass that was Jorah, she feels upstaged by Sansa and may start to see or imagine people conspiring against her. Her paranoia and distorted sense of superiority don’t bode well for her. She’s a tragic character.
The thing is, wouldn’t she have already been in the Godswood before Viserion arrived to tear up the castle? He arrived as Jon was nearly at the gates to the Godswood, but we saw Arya leave Mel much earlier in the episode, giving her plenty of time to stealth her way past the fighting and creep into the Godswood. She could have been waiting around the perimeter or up a tree (or in the Weirwood tree as I am going to keep on believing) for the NK to arrive. Bran was probably warged to keep track of her progress.
Inga,
With regards to the North knowing Cersei is a threat, personally I don’t feel they will need any action by Bronn to remind them of how dangerous she is. Sansa herself was telling Jon at the start of S7 that he is preoccupied by the enemy in the North when he needs to be thinking about the enemy in the south. In the end, he was right (as we the audience knew), but now, she should remember her own words and remember that as long as Cersei is in power, the north will never be safe. Especially now their supply of fighting men (and general population) has been utterly devastated. They couldn’t defend themselves against anything, let alone the Golden Company if they come for the North if/when they’re through with Dany.
I would also like to see at least a discussion over whether the North is able to function as an independent Kingdom now it has been largely decimated. Structurally, the Last Hearth seemed untouched, so the infrastructure is probably still fine, but in theory, if what Tormund says is true, anyone not in Winterfell is now dead. This obviously doesn’t apply to areas south of Winterfell near the neck, but I suppose we can assume a lot of the Northern people are dead. How can they function as a kingdom now? I would love to see this as a Stark-Team private conversation, but I think it’s wishful thinking.
Does anyone think we’ll see Glover rock up apologetically? I wonder what Sansa/Jon would do with him.
Dyanna,
I think dany must be the one who should be disappointed because the only way dany can battle NK is when she is on top of Drogon and when NK got Viserion..I thought dany will unmount NK and get to kill indeed Viserion with the help of Drogon..
And jon can fight him on the ground ..
But it didn’t happen that way..
And iam still looking for an reasonable explanation from the writers why dragon fire doesn’t work other than it’s too easy to predict..
Che,
If only Sansa learnt a lesson from Yara on how to ask for staying independent instead of learning from LF and cersei..
Netheb,
I disagree. From the moment Dany burned the Tarlies through Ep 705 and up till now the showrunners have been showing her increasingly vulnarable and human. Sure, she has a bit of back and forth, but the overall tendency is clear. Last epsidode we almost had Dany of S1 – no dragons, crying in despair, but strong and noble, ready to fight with a sword in her hands. I think the showrunners are setting her on the path of letting the IT go (to Jon), although she should continue to have back and forth for some time to maintain tension.
She uses violence too quickly? When she first arrived to Westeros she suffered several defeats because she delayed using violence. She gets scrutinized and criticized more than any other character – even Cersei! Speaking of Cersei, she’s already our dark/mad queen character. Do we really need another?
Raenarys,
I’m not sure if I buy the theory completely, but I don’t think Jon’s love or protection of Arya would have mattered. We saw him look at Sam, in need of dire help, and just keep going. He knew that they had to get at the NK or everything was for not. If the theory is right, then he probably knew he wouldn’t make it and she had a shot, so he did what he could.
There are definetly holes in the theory, but that is one of the reasons I love GOT. Not everything is explicitly shown or said. So we can talk theories all day.
Daenerys has been a dark character from the day she gathered a large army to threaten a population and declare that she had a right to rule.
She has a touching backstory given her wretched family but that does not mean that we are not to note an authoritarian megalomaniac when we see one. Cersei and Daenerys are very similar. There is no reason why we cannot have more than one dark characters. We had both Ramsey and Frey and Vargo, right?
She may win in the end as she still has dragons. She is still the power player.
(Anyway I am happy to wait to see how this works out, we have half a season. But to think about it, 10 years ago would HBO fund a series in which a woman with a dragon is the endgame. HBO does adult TV about complicated characters living messy lives.)
Vanessa Cole,
Exactly…
Why are we not talking about the failures of her hand and her advisors…
If dany wanted she could have destroyed KL in a minute but she didn’t..but the so called brilliant minds have yet to come up with a plan that can take cersei out…but the blame is on dany..
This is why I hate what the show had done..if ones looks in the book how dany has taken all three cities in the slavers bay one would notice how minimum bloodshed and loss it took for her to gain victory…and all the ideas where from her..buy show completely ignored that aspect of her character..
One of the reasons I am really going to miss Jorah is he is the one good advisor for dany who doesn’t play the “But your father” card or morally superior than dany…he would have been lot of help to her..
Weak after weak the scenarios some present is amazing to me..
After the first episode North only behaves this way because she is yet to prove herself ..
And now when she had done that she is the one who fights for her people …now people come up with its too rude for dany to ask North to fight because they are war weary..
I would have accepted it if they said the same in season 6 when boltons had Winterfell and cersei had KL..but now winterfell is back to Starks and WW threat eliminated..north should go all peace..amazing..
You mean on the NK? Yeah dragonfire is the same magic of Old Valyria as Valyrian Steel is except without the middleman.
Well do tell me what happened to those army and those dragons..which population they destroyed..
If only she had greenseer of a brother and a hypocritical friend and a cousin who had a nephew who had done all the job to get her family claim back ..so she can take back IT as her rightful heir..well she didn’t..
Boojam,
Yeah on NK…
It’s very obvious that dragon fire should work when dragonsteel and dragon glass work against him…
And the only reason it seems to be ignored because that it’s very obvious and too easy..
But it’s laughable how they killed a dragon by just a single spear..which is not at all too easy thing to do..
I wrote earlier that I used Closed Captions and he definitely did not say go go go. It just says Jon Yells. If it was any type of dialogue like “go go go” it would have been in the closed caption.
Well, some of the fandom were never enamored of Daenerys. She was always dark once she got powerful. I do not know if she is tragic but if the series is to end on a positive note, then she will be a tragic figure. Of course, she could re-thinking her priorities and decide that power and ruling is not the only way to finding happiness and family.
I’m not hating on Dany… She deserves sympathy for all this. I’m saying that she’s a tragic character because she means well, but she just doesn’t seem like a good ruler.
And yes, she does have a tendency on harsh justice (we’ll destroy those who wronged me, lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground…).
I’m not saying Dnerys is evil or that she lacks compassion. But she can have a black and white way of seeing the world when she feels justified and it can be unsettling.
Episode 3 came as a surprise because, like you said, I found again the Dany I loved at the beginning of the series: she stayed true to her commitment to fight the AotD, she fought bravely, no display of arrogance. I actually feared for her life when she fell off Drogon.
But I can’t shake the feeling that her time in Westeros is her fully embracing and even losing herself in her House and its legacy-her costume reflects that as well, as we see her going full Targaryen red in ep4.
Dragonbringer,
Dragonbringer,
Dragonbringer,
And they conveniently forget that she didn’t come from a loving home, she was abused by her brother. Jon is actually loved (except by Sansa and Cat) and he wanted to prove himself and he learned from the best like Ned, Jeor, Mance ..Pray tell me from whom did Dany get her moral compass? yeah that’s right from herself. And now people want to make her mad queen. Last week they said she will kill Jon. She infect saved him. Now they say, North won’t join and this will push her to madness.. This is actually making me think.. if Dany doesn’t go “mad queen” may be all those haters will go mad. Essentially there is no winning for Dany. She either has to go mad or die.
The library scene showed her slipping under the table silently, then implies, but doesn’t show, her swiftly and silently slipping past the wight who was crouching down to look for her under the table, literally right under his nose. In the second it took him to crouch down, she was already gone, unnoticed.
There are also several scenes of Arya taking flying leaps, most notably in 6×08 while the waif is chasing her.
She’s been training to be “invisible” since hiding from Varys and Illyrio in Season One, while she was being trained to hunt cats.
I’m continuously shocked that there are people who haven’t been paying attention to Arya’s journey and training for the past 7 seasons.
Che,
If the show does address Lord Glover not showing up, I think House Glover will be stripped of lands and titles. Jon stopped Sansa from doing the same to the Karstarks and Umbers when they aided with the Bolton’s, but I don’t think he’ll be lenient about them abandoning the fight against the AotD. Also, I don’t know how Jon will interpret his authority as Warden of the North now that he knows he’s technically a trueborn Targaryen. It may not matter since the Northern lords declared him King in the North despite his previous bastard status, but he may feel compelled to tell them b/c of his sense of honor. Would the remaining Northern lords (and Sansa) just shrug and say ‘well now the North has claim over the Seven Kingdoms ‘ or will they say ‘you’re a Targaryen, go south and let a Stark oversee the North?’
BrankStark,
Exactly..
The problem I have is those who are saying that she is tragic and not a mad queen..
I don’t see them talking why she will become tragic which will be because of others actions not just because of her aggression alone…
And when that happens I doubt people will say how can the so and so character do that to dany instead of yeah she deserves it because she is volatile and it has been set up..
TB, Although you were absent, I did mention that you had commented weeks ago that Arya could be the one to kill the NK. Well, done! I think your thought was that it could come from an unexpected person like Arya. A number of us had agreed with your speculation – although I do not think anyone was really committed to this idea.
But yes, looking back now, Arya doing the deed made great sense given many parts of her storyline.
Also, can we all stop Dany bashing really? Having an ambition and trying to get back your family legacy ( Also by admitting that your father did horrible crimes) is not essentially a Dark thing.
She tried peace in Mereen- Sons of Harpy came.
She tried peace in westores — Her Allies got attacked. ( Pray tell me what’s the point of having allies, if you don’t protect them or bring justice to them after they die?)
Tyrion killed people, Tywin killed people ( but apparently political master mind), Cersei is a vicious person, Jaime used to be a very arrogant person.. ( And they all came from safer childhoods…) Where did Dany come from? ( abuse and Domestic Violence) If anything she has every right to be proud of herself of what she is now. Also for Sansa? She was from a loving home and yet she looked down upon every one and she still does that, she would have taken Winterfell without her brother? No.. I can see only Jon and Dany are two people who became these leaders from nothing except family names ( in that as well, Jon has a considerably better childhood).
So, people can climb off their high horses regarding Dany ( People of Westores, including Sam.. he is okay with Jon killing Janos, but not Dany killing his family who broke their vows to their liege lords and also treated him horribly)
I simply don’t understand, how is a good story when you make one of your heroes a monster with just like what 3 episodes left?
Random thoughts:
“Go Go Go” theory–it may be from Reddit, but I actually saw an article about it in my google news feed yesterday. The source is probably more embarrassing than a Redditt thread. It was Cosmo. I’m embarrassed for having read it. Shame!
Military tactics: On the one hand, yeah they were lacking. One typically wouldn’t send your calvary (the greatest one on the planet at that) into the teeth of a frontal assault all Leroy Jenkins like.. Plus, it’s not like the assault was being carried out by the living. It was a zombie horde/mass. Conventional tactics kind of go out the window. You needed the dragons, but also needed to hold them back for the NK. There are competent strategos in this group. Hopefully they improve on KL battle.
Arya killing NK: I’ve watched the episode a few times now. Pretty sure the simplest answer (though maybe not the most satisfying) is that she used her stealth ninja skills, ran by the walker generals (per the wisp of wind/hair blowing of the one) and that’s it. The library scene showed that she was stealthy enough to evade them for the most part.
Bran: I know it didn’t look like he did much. Maybe he didn’t. Maybe what he did will be discussed. We do know, from previous episodes, that the NK can find/see him when he wargs, so when Bran says to Theon, “I’m going to go now”, that’s the beginning of Bran luring the NK to the Godswood. With that, NK’s focus may have been so singular that he had his guard down just a touch. With that, his army/generals almost operate on a hivemind type basis (generals are a bit more independent, but still) and were also standing down for the NK to land the coup de grace. It’s possible that Bran knew all of this and was helping/laying the trap accordingly.
KL battle: why the assumption that the red keep is going to be destroyed by dragon fire and not wildfire. Cersei is certainly a candidate for mad queen too, and if she can’t rule it, maybe she wants to ensure that all that is left are ashes.
Che,
How do we defeat the death..
ARYA must have read the tale of three brothers from the tales of beetle the bard..
Or maybe she is the last surviving member of third brother’s family..
I was under the impression she was hiding in the weirwood tree and they had to sacrifice poor Theon..so NK will think that bran is there for his taking..
If Dany didn’t burn more then half of the NK army in the first 5 minutes, everyone would have died 5 minutes after that, and Arya couldn’t have killed the NK. Her armies even were the ones protecting the northerners, The Unsullied hold the line while the northerners fled behind the wall.
I’m not a huge Dany fan myself, as I stated many times before. I’m more a fan of Jon, Arya, Tyrion etc. But for me Dany was the one that made everything possible, she gave the biggest sacrafice (99% of her soldiers). Arya gave the final blow, but that doesn’t mean she deserves the most credit in my opinion.
It was team build but Dany was the start that made everything possible in this battle. At least that’s my opinion.
JSchmeh,
Who said that cheering is after Dany’s words fire and blood?
maybe it’s Sansa or Jon say something there.
I think the trailer is heavily cut, like they do with every trailer.
Beth of House Seaworth,
He is in Cersei, and the NK goes mental being in her head.
But it’s possible, that way they could focus on cersei in 4 and 5 and after that going back to the NK. But I doubt it. I think he’s just gone.
Che,
Yes, Sansa should be the one to convince everyone to march of Cersei without delay, but Bronn’s plot and the Lannister crossbow he brings with him may be still used as an evidence.
Regarding Lord Glover, it may go several ways. We may simply learn that he was overrun by the AOTD. If not, I would recommend him to go into exile or even better fall upon his own sword to save the honor of his house; his successor may bring 500 men to the Targ/Stark army.
As for the Northern independence, IDK: for the moment it looks more like Sansa’s personal agenda, the people/other lords were going back and forth, and it hasn’t been established that independence is an ultimate dream of every honorable northerner (my country lost and restored it’s independence many times both in recent times and in the Middle Ages, so I know of what I speek;). One way or another, independence is more about freedom of allience, than about remaining totally unaffiliated. However, there’s no alterntive alliance the North could possibly join. Moreover, if the North secedes, that would preprogramme an inevitable war between the North and the South two or three generations afterwards. So, I don’t think the show is going that way: I think the North will happily reintegrate into the Seven Kingdoms under Jon’s rule. Afters all, internal feuds combined with unification against external threats led to centralization and birth of unified nations, so the Seven Kingdoms shoud become one, rather than desintegrate.
BrankStark,
I Think The thing that separates the other characters and dany is the amount of power she can generate..whether through her army or through her dragons..she possesses powers that some feel danger to other characters they like and what it’s mean for them..
That fear had lead some to the point of accepting cersei as better queen..
Any idea how the night king / white walkers were put to sleep last time? Was he killed or was just beaten back? If he was killed last time.. do you think he will come back again in some 1000 odd years?
Che,
Even when we’re disagreeing its always with lots of respect for the other’s opinion. Most of the time at least.
About Bran, remember Isaac saying he is putting everything in place to defeat the Night King. What if he needs to put one thing in place, making the Arys mad. What if Bran will go weirwood-past in the final and tell the NK to burn them all. It will make the story even more sadder.
Che,
What if Lord Glover will pull a comical return.
*lord glover entering the great hall*
Lord glover: Sorry guys, I made up my mind. I’m here told help after all. Sorry I’m late. When does the battle start?
*everyone else in the rooms looks at each other with a “Is did guy serious” look*
Dragonbringer,
Yara didn’t get independence. Dany told her to “respect integrity”. All she got was an empty title of a queen.
Dragonbringer,
haha! like the Tarlys. I have read some where in a Vanity Fair magazine three things..
1. It’s love at first sight for Jon and Dany let herself weep for Viserion only infront of Jon. Her pain caused him so much pain that he realised that he’s in love with her. Jon essentially doesn’t make first moves, but with Dany he did. That shows the depth of his love. She sees the man he is and says ” I hope I deserve it ” ( he bending the knee) it shows how much she admires him.
2. LF played the ” smartest Person ever” Sansa until the end.. ( until he said -Arya wants to be the lady of Winterfell) That’s when Sansa got suspicious and changed the plan.. otherwise she was trying to execute/undermine Arya. That’s the reason she rudely dismissed Brienne. She also wanted the northern lords to be loyal only to her, when Arya points that out she gets angry and says ” you should be kneeling infront of me.. because I took Winterfell.. and Jon lost it.. until knights of the vale came..” why didn’t she tell Jon that reinforcements are coming? because she isn’t loyal like other Starks, she has her interests first and foremost then only family.
3. Tyrion was also in love with Dany, he also fears her and is in awe of her ( season 6 finale.. he says Daario won’t be the last person to love her) and that’s why he looked sad.. when Jon and Dany became close in season 7 finale..
there was some Vanity fair article.. stating the in between lines in the script
Ugh. I am SO with you on this! Literally clutching at straws and trying to shoehorn Jon into his apparent destiny. Lemme try and help these guys:
1. Arya has literally been training to be still, stealthy and unseen since S1.
2. She is a frickin faceless man- an elite, fully trained assassin. And infinitely more qualified (and intelligent) than Jon to do the job.
3. Jon has NO idea of any of this. Why would he think his little sister would be able to defeat the NK?
4. Shouting go, no, hello, or ANYTHING at a frickin undead, rampaging, rage filled, fire breathing dragon, is NOT going to distract the dragon. Or make any difference whatsoever.
5. Arya was in the Godswood for some time before these events, waiting on the NK arriving. It doesn’t matter where- but she was there. Jon did not see her.
6. She didn’t expose her presence there because (1 and 2).
7. Jon or Dany can STILL be AA/TPTWP if they even exist: those legends do not say these heroes are the ones who defeat the AOTD.
8. In face he DID contribute to the endgame by uniting and leading all the various factions and (unwittingly) by being a consistent dumbass and running down the NK, which distracted him briefly.
Also, its fair to say people get invested in their theories and expectations, so it often clouds their judgements. We need to remember that before jumping on the mysogny accusation bus. Twitter is on fire with that, and it gets boring really quickly.
Dragonbringer,
The North is not going peace: you saw everyone chearing for Dany and her call to win the last war; you saw Jon on a horseback, – what else do you need to see?
Paul,
Everyone in the North is mourning; Cersei is done mourning Tommen; Dany might not use black for mourning, given the traditions in Essos (?). Just my immediate thoughts…
Netheb,
Same here, I was a bit done with Dany for 3 seasons (5 till 7) and now in 8×03 I though: oh now, not Dany and Drogon. That is something that episode did right, make me feel again for her.
BrankStark,
What a big bullshit, you’re posts are always very personal, not about Dany the character herself, but always about those “Dany-hate-fans”, instead of rephrasing those fans and making assumptions about them, maybe come with real arguments about the topic itself.
And no the fans don’t want a mad Dany, some only stated that it’s possible the writers go that route. You’re doing like you’re way is the only way the writers will go. And news for you, only D&D and the actors know what will happen in episode 4 till 6, we the fans have to wait till the episodes air. Maybe you are right maybe you’re not.
But if you’re not right, I hope you will be okay, and will admit here that you’re wrong, because with that “I’m always right tone” if you’re wrong be man enough to admit it.
Sorry for the long condescending tone of me now, but it’s only because you started to become personal to real human beings, instead of a character of a tv show.
Ten Bears,
Wait until you catch up on all the discussion, dude. I hope you’re stocked up on Dornish red, or whatever you stock up on down in that humid swamp… 😉
I can believe from her training that the WW’s didn’t see her sneak in. They did show the scene of her sneaking up on Jon as well.
Regarding the leap, the first time I saw it I didn’t understand it. I couldn’t figure out why she would be leaping like that. It really helped me when Oz said in his article that she was like a “wolf” It really was like a wolf leaping onto its prey. Once I had the picture of a wolf leaping, it really worked for me. It would have been even cooler if the rest of her pack with Nymeria showed up surrounding them.
Dragonbringer,
Stop. The NK has been created by the Children’s of the forest dragonglass magic, not by Valyrian dragon magic. Valyrian steel worked because it contained dragonglass/element of magic from the Children of the Forest or the same source Children of the Forest used.
The show has time and time again proved this wrong about Sansa. She completely followed Jon’s orders and never once went against him when he was away. She kept saying how much she wanted Jon to come back, she refused the North when offered it by Jon in S6, her only agenda has been looking after EVERYONE in the north including peasants and not once did she try solidifying her rule.
This is just straight up false about Sansa. Even D&D in the post-ep videos said Sansa has true empathy when having to execute people like LF, whereas they said Dany is purely ruthless and cold. They made a point of Dany trying to emotionally manipulate Sansa, which Sansa completely saw through. In ep2 they also showed the parallels of how they handle advisors, Dany completely humiliated Tyrion in front of everyone while Sansa took Brienne’s word and spared Jaime. Dany looked jealous when Theon came back to the North for Sansa and the Starks, not her. Oh… and as for Sansa’s hold on the North? She followed Jon’s orders yet again and handed it over to Dany with no resistance.
Sansa isn’t the only being portrayed as the imperialist who’s power hungry here. Dany clearly is.
Apollo,
I am soooo slow clapping for you right now! I loved all of your points.
And you are correct, ppl do get invested in their theories. Lord knows I was definitely one of those ppl who thought Tyrion was a Targ given Joanna’s history with Aerys, but I have since let that go. So I know what’s like to fully believe in something that is hard to prove. But this one about Jon just seemed so silly!
kevin1989,
If I am wrong, I will come and admit that I am wrong. And What kind of personal tone did I take or address anyone in person? and you can deny all you want there are so many people here who kind of diss or want her die.. and I see very very very limited positive posts on her if any. Your apology is not needed sir. I told my opinion and you can have an opinion on my opinion. But I stand my ground, if I am wrong will come and post that I am wrong in another three weeks. I am not saying my way is the only way….but some opinions about her do seem like you tube haters and trolls here… so..
Apollo,
Arya already had her moment. She used her training to get revenge on the Freys. She even got to kill Littlefinger too and now she gets to kill the Night King? It should have been Jon or Bran.
BeardedOnion,
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/12/game-of-thrones-scripts-secrets-cersei-pregnancy-tyrion-daenerys-snow-on-the-throne
this is the article I was referring to.. it was clear that Sansa feels angry about Arya kind of stating her thoughts out loud.
A Man Has No User Name,
ps. I like your nickname
BrankStark,
I read a theory that I liked about the NK. The 3ER has the power to keep the NK in bay. But now the 3ER was already week and needed a new body, that of Bran who was not ready on time to be the new 3ER to keep him in bay. He didn’t sleep just wait for the right moment to attack.
FINALLY!! I posted in the “Ode” thread when I got home last night looking to see if you’d watched it yet and didn’t see anything. Now I have to dig through all the posts since…
—-
Since I haven’t gone through comments I don’t know if anyone has mentioned Emilia’s appearance on Kimmel last night. Sorry if it has been?? We may have a thread on it later… but she is SUPER-HYPED for us to see episode 5! For some reason the interview on the Kimmel YouTube channel cuts the end of it. Right at the end she says some things about how “episode five is mental” and “find the biggest tv you can to watch it.” Her expression and body language were purely gleeful and excited. Very curious now about what they’ll do that gets in her that mood. I’ve read several comments of people saying they’ve lost a bit of excitement now that the NK and aotd are done. Well, we all have to remember that they like to ‘go big’ so certainly they’re going to want to ‘go biggest’ near the end of the series….. Just saying….
BrankStark,
So? As far as we know D&D didn’t write that article right?
BeardedOnion,
I agree with most of what you said. Despite what everybody might’ve said against Sansa, Jon always gave her his trust: “I’m leaving both [his home and people] in good hands. Yours. Until I return, the North is yours.”
And so far he’s never regretted it.
As to Dnerys, you’re right. She went from being a liberator in Essos to become someone who did some pretty dark stuff. I don’t think she has bad intentions but she’s still on the wrong path. It’s actually sad for her character. She’s an utterly tragic villain with a relatable and plausible motive.
That same article points out how Sansa realizes she’s wrong about Arya and changes her viewpoint. Both Sansa and Arya were wrong about each other in that season and they came to accept each other. Also that storyline just sucked massive balls and was completely out of character for both sisters. It had Arya threatening to kill Sansa and completely fooling for an old ass letter that was out of context.
In any case, Sansa and Arya are on the same page completely now. They are working side by side to protect their family and that’s how it should always be. If Sansa truly craves the North then it’s not clearly in the slightest since everything she’s done so far has indicated otherwise. She even turns down the lords offer to appoint her ruler in S7.
Tron79,
Hee, as someone who depends on closed captions at times I can tell you those ellipses comments generally means that the program did not understand what was said and did the best that it could. Seen some hilarious results. i dunno maybe he didn’t. Maybe he just yelled at a dead dragon because he so frustrated being kept from saving the world. or, maybe he did say gogogo, I llike the theory and think im going to stick with it. hell its a fantasy show, why not?
Clob,
Considering Sapochnik is directing episode 5, I already imagine it being a big one. Not necessarily battle one like this last one or “Battle of the Bastards”, but I could easily imagine something like “THe WInds of Winter”. Then episode 6 is very likely a closure for the characters themselves.
Oh, I always say that (over)speculation is a double-edged sword. I know it from LOST fandom and I feel GoT fandom is going the same route now… expecting more answers than needed.
I remember when Talisa got killed at Red Wedding, book readers went into rage mode because “Jeyne is still alive and pregnant in the books” – a theory born from one line was suddenly an established fact for them. And now that the show is in resolution phase, I feel more and more people will be mad if what they envisioned in their head is not correct. That’s why I always enter GoT episodes with open mind.
JamesL,
I get your point, and I’ll admit if we seee Arya be the one to kill Cersei, or any other major character, I’ll be kinda pissed as it will start to become tiresome.
But neither Jon nor Bran were “entitled” to be the one who dealt the killing blow. They sure played their part though, directly and indirectly (and unwittingly on Jon’s part- he truly does know nothing).
I’m now wondering if this is another trope subversion that GRRM excels at: the handsome, honourable hero with a predetermined destiny and a magical sword and wolf, who turns out NOT to be the promised one, but simply acts as wingman, and stumbles from one mistake to the next.
Clob,
Can’t wait. I always though that episode 5 will top episode 3 and that D&D kept that for themselves, there’s a reason why they put that trailer of the season with only episode 1 till 3.
Netheb,
I don’t understand what’s wrong with that article, which part?
Lord Parramandas,
Can’t wait. I’m wondering if episode 5 will be the end of Cersei or if that will be episode 6. I think the episode that have the end of Cersei will be very emotional. Not really for Cersei of course but I think for Jaime, and of course maybe Sansa etc that it’s over. peace.
kevin1989,
Thank you and dang it, there goes that theory.
Netheb,
God only knows what that new Dany’s costume means: the promo material creates an impression, that she is sidelining Jon. However, D&D are well known prankers. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised, if the next episode were similar to “The Book of the Stranger”. I imagine, after the failure to engage the Night King into a 1-on-1 combat, Jon might go into “I fought, I lost” mode. Then Dany will tell him that she recognizes his claim and push him towards the IT like Sansa pushed him towards Winterfell. However, whereas Sansa was more like a damsel in distress, Dany may take a more active role of a kingmaker. That’s why we might see her dressing into full Targaryan red.
ash,
Well, it would be cool if Jon says something to Arya in Episode 4 about how he saw her! I’ll be happy for you if your theory proves out someday. The script isn’t online yet that I could find. Eventually it will be. What I would have loved is if he could have turned Viserion because he’s a Targ. I thought for a second when he yelled, Viserion actually listened to him and perhaps he would be able to mount Viserion, and his Targ influence would be stronger than the NK. Viserion sort of stared at Ae/Jon in bewilderment, and I thought it was because of Ae/Jon’s Targ connection. If only Ae/Jon knew some old Valyrian, Viserion may have responded.
I actually can’t wait for episode 4 to see where things are going. I watched Emilia’s interview with Kimmel and as others have said in this thread she says episode 5 is bigger than episode 3, so still lots to look forward to.
Dany has spent her entire life going after the throne by any means necessary if she completely gives it up for seemingly no reason I’ll be upset. She won’t easily give up her life work.
Okay, so just because you disagree with someone’s opinion, that doesn’t mean you get to assume that you are correct and everyone else hasn’t been watching the show properly. Let’s be courteous shall we?
Firstly, Arya rolled under the table, she did not run there – it was a short distance with something to give her cover when she got there. Secondly, she managed to get away because the table blocked the wight’s view of her as he bent down and she managed to get out. She’s fast and definitely stealthy, no denying that, but she still required the book cases and the table as cover to evade the wights. She couldn’t just walk or run through their midst unseen and unnoticed – or she would have done so.
We have seen Arya leap off things in previous episodes to attain the sort of leap she performed in that episode (jn the waif chase specifically – and one of them she lands very poorly and injures herself more). She does not run from standing still and leap into the air as high as she does in that moment with the night king. The angle they have her jumping in at is ridiculous when you consider how tall the NK is and how short Arya is. To attain such height in a leap without jumping off things she would definitely have to pick up significant speed (look at ballet dancers when they perform a grand jete, which does propel them high into the air, they need to pick up speed to get the height Arya gains in that scene). So if Arya possesses the ability to run at speed without being noticed through crowds of enemies, then why did she not employ this in the library? There she needed slow, calculated movements with things blocking the wight’s view of her, yet out there in the Godswood she is suddenly able to run and leap without being seen by the dozens of enemies watching the exact spot where she is making her way to?
In this very episode we saw the inconsistencies between how careful she had to be to evade the wights in the library and then the presumed super-hero powers she used to fly to the night king’s side.
Tron79,
It’s funny you say that bc when I rewatched the ep, it looked as though Viserion hesitated to fire when Jon was crouching behind the rock. Hm…
Dyanna,
I know this is a thing for a lot of people, but I’ve watched the episode 3 times on 3 different screens and had no issue at all.
Yes the dark scenes were dark, but not to the point where I couldn’t see what was happening.
For those wondering, I watched it on a 10 year old Panasonic projector (led 1080p), a galaxy s4 tab (oled 1440p) and a Samsung computer monitor ( led 1440p).
The image looked fine on all three.
That is an element that is maddening about Sansa/the North being so against Daenerys. If that ‘mood’ doesn’t change at least a little bit after what they just went through together…
Certain things are understandable of course, but where is this huge desire to be an independent country truly coming from? Before Ned was beheaded and the War of the Five Kings happened they didn’t seem to be pushing for such a thing. They fought in Robert’s Rebellion and displaced a ruthless king. The Stark lord has been Warden of the North for centuries and pretty much had a lot of independence far from the throne no matter which person has sat on it. With Daenerys they’d at least be starting off and moving forward with someone who is an ally. Cersei is in no way an ally and will yield to no desires or wishes of the North. Daenerys may, especially when (from what almost all of them know right now) she and Jon are an “item.”
I’m gonna ‘bla-bla-bla books’ for a second… In the books Ghost was the runt pup, but it is written that he grew to be the largest of all of them.
The largest I think they ever showed him was with Gilly at Craster’s camp way back when he was fairly young: https://data.whicdn.com/images/171665955/original.gif
Che,
Why didn’t they just have Arys hidden behind or in the braches of the heart tree, and drop down or jump down onto NK?
“Quiet as a shadow. Quick as a snake.”
I still don’t buy that. I’ve watched the scene so many times and never see anything that indicates to me that he saw Arya. Plus, D&D didn’t say a thing like that when talking about the scene, which I think they would if that’s the case. I’ve also seen different subtitles/cc in reaction videos from different countries and have yet to see it saying “Go.” It’s been simply [YELLS] or “No.”
I watched on 50 inch 4K TV with all the lights in the room out and I was still struggling make out what happened in that scene. I did read an article where it was stated that there was nothing amiss with lighting but the compression used by HBO caused the darkness when broadcasting.
I saw nothing of the injuries caused to Viserion and the penny didn’t drop until later when he was on the ground with blue fire not coming out of his mouth.
BrankStark,
I don’t see how it’s such a stretch for Dany to ‘become mad’, although I’d argue she’s always had that impulse.
Burning people to make a point, punishing people without due process only to later execute someone for not following due process, having to be talked out of burning and destroying cities by advisors (Jorah, Tyrion and Jon), demanding respect and amassing titles with zero tolerance for dissent.
If anything it’s been set up perfectly. What happens if there’s no one left to hold her back? Do you really think that she’s going to become rational and sit down to carefully consider not ‘burning them all’ if it comes down to it? I have my doubts.
No, I don’t think it’s implausible at all for Dany to become what she’s always been at heart.
Clob,
I don’t know… Why did Scotland hold a referendum on Scottish independence after being part of the UK for so long? Why did Catalonia declare the briefest independence ever? Why did Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia cease to exist? Whether you like it or not, some people want to be able to choose their own destiny and have their own independent country even after years of “peace and prosperity” as a part of a larger one.
In any case, I agree with your assessment that the outlook of an independent North looks rather grim after the Long Night. And between Cersei and Dany, they should definitely choose the latter.
Clob,
Saw it as well. she seemed really excited and wanted to talk about it.
For me its best, when I watch on a big screen.
Just got down to your post… So yeah, her comments on it WERE in the clip. I thought it was at the end because I didn’t find it jumping around on the timeline. Anyway, yeah, she was hyping it pretty good. 🙂
I understand what you mean and what you want to see, but so far we’ve never seen Dany consider giving up her claim. She’s wanted and worked for the Iron Throne for years, she has no vision other than a desire to sit on the IT. “I was born to rule the Seven Kingdoms, and I will”, remember?
I agree that finding out she wasn’t the only Targaryen in the world could’ve changed her mind. But this revelation made her think he’s been playing her; so far her only reaction has been hurt, distrust and perhaps contained anger.
I don’t know if she prefers to be a lone wolf, but RLJ created a gap between them that I think will only get bigger with time.
Dyanna,
I’m not dismissing the issues, I’m sure they were true for many.
It’s true that dark scenes don’t work well with compression. I didn’t seem to be affected.
Inga,
And he was killed by a Dragonsteel aka valyrian steel..
I wonder how you will link valyrian steel to the north..
What does how he was created have to do with my point about how if dragon glass and dragonsteel can be harmful why Dragonfire can’t cause the same damage..
Name one location in the North where Dragonglass can be mined..if it’s only about North then it should be in the North right.
Inga,
If you have read my comment you would know that I was speaking about how people come up with new explanations against dany regarding how it will be rude of her to ask North fight for her..
Ok, well lets’ look at this clinically then. you say,
My answer to this is, the battle for Winterfell is not daeny’s battle. If I were her battle commander, I would have supported her decisions all the way up to jaime saying ‘Cersie never intended to bring her armies north, she hired the golden company and lies in wait to defeat the victor of this battle.’ At that point I would have advised her to pull every thing that she had back to Dorne and invite all the people of the north and the vale to accompany her if they wish. That act would have placed enormous pressure on the people of the north to make a decision. From there she could have commenced consolidating her power base. Kings Landing would have been attacked before her, and all of the refugees of the country would have kept streaming south to gain the protection of the two dragons and her many complete armies. The benefits of such an action for daenerys would have been manifold. the bottom line is that confronting her there, the nk would have been as far away from the north (and his power base) as geographically possible. Daeny would have secured Dragonstone and had perhaps a year to make all the dragonglass weapons that her army needed.
So, as you can see, The battle for winterfell is not ‘her’ battle.
I object to your assertion that
I am a grandfather so i imagine that fits into the catagory of grown-up, and, If anyone, and I mean anyone at all, asked me to go back on my word after having given it, I would be grievously wounded by such a request, that they would even entertain it possible of me to do so.
IMO, if the Starks, or, any of the Northmen ask Jon to go back on his word they will lose him. Unless by that time Daeny has already done something to lose him, but, it would take a lot of time, and a lot of ultimatums given to daeny by jon before jon would give up on her and/or decide that she has now lost the right to expect his loyalty. That would be quite a way down the track, and not here in episode 4 at the aftermath of this recent battle.
I do not see anywhere that Daeny is a dark character. She can be authoritarian, but, that is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, in my opinion, it will be the kind of rule needed in the first ten years after she takes control until she has finally wiped all the gregor cleganes out of their hiding places in her realm. All the nasty little bastards that have taken what they wanted off the little people and thrived under the lannisters rule. This kind of clean up will take time, and I can imagine that many beric dondarians will be employed by the new administration to weasel out these predators. And this period would equate to the cleansing of the shire. during that comes the gradual dismantling of the apparatus and the introduction of the non feudal world..
BeardedOnion,
I keep thinking about what Arya said about Sansa in Ep 801: that she was the smartest person she had ever known. Basicly, the smartest thing Sansa has done so far was suppressing the temtation to usurp power and staying in the pack. But, if I read it right, it was indeed the ultimate proof of Sansa’s smartness.
According to the show Tywin was the smartest man in Westeros; however, he ended up shot in a privy. Why? Because he went against his family member (Tyrion). Cersei also ran into quite a lot of problems simply because she went against her family and allies out of a pure spite (and there will be more). In general, it’s a common trait: people who come to power fall, because at some point they start turning against their friends and family. Very few rulers in the global history died in their beds at the age of eighty surrounded by deeply mourning family and friends; however, that’s how a true success looks like. Therefore, Sansa’s decision to protect her family, instead of following her own desires, can be considered as truly smart.
And her harshness against Dany may be purely tactical. And look how it worked: Ep1 Dany gave Jon a dragon, Ep 2 she confessed that she loves him with all her heart, etc. It’s quite possible, that Sansa is simply pushing Dany to marry Jon and make him king with equal rights. She must understand that the Dragon Queen would be a major gain for the pack, but so far there have been no hints to nuptials from her side. Sansa has every right to think that the Dragon Queen her bastard brother to be too low for a husband. So, she plays buthur and pushes Dany to upease her somehow. A prety dirty game, but Sansa learned it from Cersei and in many cases it prooved to be efficient.
Arya told Jon that Sansa was protecting her family and asked him not to forget that. it minght be a clue for us, too: Sansa may not be the most pleasant person in Westeros and she might be playing dirty, but she might be playing for her family nonetheless.
I wonder if Emilia is super hype about Ep 5 bc that’s the one where we lose her 🙁
I remember Bella Ramsey (Lyanna Mormont) saying how if she couldn’t make it to the end, she’d at least want a menaingful/powerful death which she was very happy that she got.
Netheb,
Only because the show keep pushibg the narrative…when it comes to books it’s pretty clear she sees westeros and KL as her home..
It’s interesting that we have dany in the books wondering how it was always meant to be Rhaegar and his son Aegon after him..and how she should have married him..
In the show we have I was born to rule the seven kingdoms ..
While thinking about it..everything that had been controversial is something that has been presented only on the show starting with
1) where are my dragons…2) I will deal injustice with justice…3) I will rule…4) I will break the wheel..5) I was born to rule the seven kingdoms and so on…
This whole RLJ story should be more believable to dany in the books because she knows Rhaegar loved Lyanna..it’s the stark children who are under the impression of Rhaegar kidnapping and raping lyanna..
Prefiera de Gryfalco,
I know, right? They better give us SOME interaction at least after all the time we’ve been through
I would like to remind how unapologetic jamie was for his actions in the court …he said he will do that again if it was for his family’s best…
Now Sansa may do what’s best for her family..
Keep in mind these are the guys that still have a family and power and their lands..
Now what does the last surviving member of once great house will do for her ancestors..why is that considered power hungry instead of duty to her family..
If it was ok for Starks to fight for their home then it’s ok for dany to fight for her home as well( please don’t come up with it is not her home and Targs were dethroned explanations)
I’ve just rewatched the scene to check, and I agree- there is not one single indication that he sees anyone. No flash of recognition- nothing.
He realised he’s pinned down with no hope of escape or to get to where he needs to be, and he shouts at the dragon in sheer frustration, ready to face death.
I’m truly baffled how anyone has seen anything else here 🤷🏼♂️
The show did set the tone for this a few seasons back when Bran was hiding in the cave with the previous 3ER. They made a wall of fire and it showed that as the WW/NK approached, the immense cold surrounding them extinguished the fire as they got very close to it. I believe I have read some interviews with GRRM (sorry for no source) where he says how the NK/WW bring the cold, not the other way around.
Everyone is free to interpret things any way they want. The way I like to interpret it is that the cold that surrounds the NK/WW is so extreme, any fire (even dragon fire) cannot penetrate it. However, dragonglass and valaryian steel, which use the same magic as dragonfire, can kill them once it penetrates their body (stab, slash, etc).
It shouldn’t be surprising for me to say that I expected someone to pull out a response like this. Yes, yes, our history, history, history. I just think in this fantasy story that it kind of popped out of nowhere. Fine, they (or some of them) want it now, but that is still ignoring that they don’t have it and they have no means to acquire it any time soon against the current presiding queen. They at least have a chance if they accept the alliance with the person that has (or had) the ability to do that. Spitting in the face of that chance gets them nothing.
BeardedOnion,
And Jon has been fighting to become a hero who saves the world and he was robbef of that dream duel with the NK in the same brutal way as Dany has been robbed of her claim to the throne. So, what?
Dany won’t give her now non-existent claim for “no good reason”: she’ll give it for the good of her family and people and also because she’s just.
Clob,
I saw Emilia on Kimmel too and you are right, she was giddy with excitement about episode 5!
Dan and Dave are suppose to be on Kimmel tonight 5/2/19.
Glad the ASNAWP team is now back in full force!
Pigeon,
I am with Pigeon – those were my initial thoughts exactly. Each “group” lost near and dear, it’s a funeral for friends.
Dragonbringer,
I didn’t read the books. We’re discussing the show here 😉 although GRRM did say that the end of the show won’t be much different from his own.
the unburdened,
What can I say? You’re envisioning yourself as Dany’s battle commander, giving your own piece of advice to a fictional character and making your own conclusions. Please don’t forget it’s a show and D&D are writing it, not us fans.
I’ve already explained my opinion on why the BatD should not be Jon’s war.
Of course Danerys thinks differently, she’s said it many times. That would mean she’s there only because she fell in love with Jon, and that the lives of everyone in the world wasn’t enough to convince her to go north in the first place.
It’s not what you would expect from someone who cares about her people.
Apollo,
Those who had followed my comments over the years may know how I feel about the whole TPTWP/AA prophecy..
Somehow i just don’t have a problem with Arya killing NK at All…it didn’t bother me even after all the rewatch..
But I have to say how some now bringing books to their defence and how hard they are trying to shoehorn jon into this..
For me i can completely understand why show did what they did ..D&D say that out loud in the BTS video..
What’s amusing to me is that they are undone by the same arguments they used to make against dany ..how it is cry obvious for dany to be the Prince that was Promised..now it seems jon killing NK is also too obvious..
No matter who strike the final blow …it was a group effort like it was always meant to be.. jon, dany and Mel and Arya and bran all had played their parts..
King in the North East,
I kinda expected to have the problem, so I wasn’t surprised. Shame so many people were affected though.
Predictions and Thoughts:
At some point going south Nymeria and her pack will join up with the Winterfell army. Why bother showing Nymeria as Arya was headed north?
At Kings Landing there will be another Dany walking out of the fire, this may unite the Kingdom.
I have 15 more thoughts but no time right now!
4gotAboutDre,
I have seen this argument but yeah i would accept it with ordinary fire but dragonfire is so different from ordinary fire…which GRRM himself have told us ..
So i just don’t find it’s convincing enough..
Coming to the issue of whose war it is..
Is it me or anyone else think this is the first time we are seeing about how this war is not only concerned with North and not only Jon’s war but war for the humanity …
How many times we have heard how this is about Jon and it is of North and how dany has no part in it and how she is concerned with only IT and not the NK..
It’s funny that when dany herself admits that it’s Jon’s war as in he is the leader of the battle..people start contradicting her..
Speaking about dany recognizing jon…when they discuss the battle plans dany was not the head …it was jon and others and dany just simply listened…she didn’t have a fit like someone else we know..
Apollo,
Apollo, I agree with all your clear and concise points.
Also, let me add to my own answer that while I see Dany as a tragic character and don’t think that she’s evil, you’re actually making me write arguments in contradiction to that. lol
It’s the other way around. Sansa has unfinished business with her more than Arya, Jon, Dany. Maybe less than Tyrion n Jaime or not.
Dragonbringer,
I’m not sure that I follow, it was always a war for humanity, that’s why they tried to bring in Dany and Cersei in the first place. Dany calling it Jon’s war made no real sense, since the IT wouldn’t exist if she didn’t step in and help to defeat the NK, she knew that in season 7. I see that as nothing more than inconsistent writing, or at best a way for Dany to really make Sansa understand that she loves Jon.
We clearly didn’t see the whole war council meeting, they kept things purposefully vague so that we would be surprised during the episode. And Sansa had first hand knowledge about Ramsey, what does Dany know that Jon doesn’t about the NK?
Juri,
It’s true that nations seek independence, but as a representative of a nation who has succesfully re-established its independence in 1990-1991, I can’t help but feel that the setup is just not quite right for the northern independence. Independence-seeking nations tend to have a long history of independence seeking: failed rebellions, peaceful resistence, overall grunge aganst the foreign oppressors, etc. And usually there are bigger differences: language, religion, culture. The North hasn’t got any of that. Religion? The old gods and the faith of the seven coexist piecefully: everyone in Westeros swears “by the old gods and the new”. Language? It’s the same. Identity? Jorah is called “Jorah the Andal” and never feaks out about that, – try to call a Ukrainian a Russian for comparison. So, either GRRM did a very poor job to portray the North as an independence-seeking nation, or he never planned to make a big deal out of that (and I bet on the later, cause GoT is based on English history).
Jenny,
Iam speaking about fandom in general…be honest about it what did we see more that it was Jon’s war or war of humanity…everytime I try to tell dany is AA …I used to get the replies dany has nothing to do with that story line no matter how hard the proof is..
I take it as a error in writing but while this gets attention…tyrions mention of How they are there defending Wintrrfell is ignored..intact he said that twice in the same episode..
For me dany’ s comments and tyrion’ s comments both holds the same…
My point was if she was about power she would want to join in and have her own say in the matters…but dany always listens to the council and that’s what shown in the books too..
Bianca Funk,
I hope Bran and Sansa tell Yara that their “brother” THeon died a hero, that he not only saved Sansa’s life, but during the battle for the Living, he protected Bran and saved him from the Army of the Dead. Theon deserves a monument in the Crypt of Winterfell as much as he deserves a memorial on Pyke from Yara.
Inga,
I disagree with you. Both in the books and the show (more prominently in the former due to time constraints), it has been shown that the North holds very tight to their pre-Andal invasion traditions (“the North remembers!”) and sneer at Southerners at any chance they have (“Even their gods are wrong!”). In terms of religion, particularly in the books, the North is impervious to the Faith of the Seven. Until Ned married Cat, there was never a sept in Winterfell.
But you do not always need all the differences you’ve mentioned: Czech and Slovakian are mutually intelligible, the religion is the same (majority of Catholics), both were part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire (shared history), etc. And yet, they decided to part ways.
Moreover, you can check how many countries in Latin America were formed (secessionist movements) despite the fact that they share the same language, religion, and overall cultural background (I know I’m painting broad strokes here and local realities were different between, let’s say, Mexico and Uruguay).
Just because the show didn’t previously show Arya performing the exact same moves doesn’t mean they didn’t adequately prepare the audience – the attentive ones at least – that she was perfectly capable of her actions.
Really sick of the whining because all I really hear is “but but but Jon is the hero waaah”
There is plenty of time for Jon to be the hero then you can rejoice all you want. I’m glad D&D didn’t go for the lame trope of the hidden King defeating the monster with his magic sword and a dragon queen at his side.
ASNAWP.
Well aren’t you lovely.
Netheb,
Yes, R+L=J created a bit of a gap between Jon and Dany, but during Ep3 that gap went out through the window. Dany was apparently edgy on the wake of the battle, when they were standing on that cliff, althogh I don’t think she considered Jon playing her – more likely, she assumed that he himself was played by his family and frieds. One way or another, she forgot everything in the melee. They fought side by side, protecting each other, trying to get each other the best chance to take out the Night King, etc. And Dany lost Jorah. We haven’t seen their last conversation in full, be we can legitly assume that they talked about Jon. Jorah deemed Jon to be a worthy choice for his Khaleesi: not only as a lover, but as a husband and co-ruling king and father of her children (remember, what he said to Jon when he returned him Longclaw). So, I assume that Jorah straightforvardly adwised Dany to marry Jon and join his family. And now it remains Jorah’s last adwise.
So, when Dany overcomes her disbelief in R+L=J revelation, she’ll probably discover that giving up her claim is easier, than she would have thought. Marriage to Jon would still make her a queen and Targarian queens have always been more or less on equals to their husbands, so what is the point of squabbling about which of them is regnant? Sure, there should be some drama: she may check the fact with Sam and Bran, but it won’t be long.
This is just one of those things you’re just going to have to accept. Either dragon fire was going to work on the Night King or it wasn’t. Now we know it didn’t. We’re talking about magical creatures with magical properties, so unless you want to write a formal letter to the Citadel, asking them to investigate further, you’re left with what has been shown.
The NK wasn’t affected by dragon fire. I don’t need a ‘how’ or ‘why’ on that any more than I need it for Mel’s and Thoros’ resurrection/fire/shadow demon powers (a god did it is basically the explanation), how stone dragon eggs can hatch live dragons, how the warging abilities work, how skeletons can be reanimated without muscle tissue, how valerian steel somehow is special enough to kill white walkers, how The Mountain is still alive, how severed body parts can be animated on their own, how the irregular seasons work, how Dany and Jon stay on the dragons during violent flights or fights, how….
The answer to all of these is: “it’s magic” or “that’s just how it is”. Take your pick.
ShameShameShame,
Say it louder for the people in the back!
I think the most compelling evidence for a split is that right now things are looking like a generic fantasy ending if we don’t see one.
Cersei is all that remains. She’ll obviously lose and if we don’t see any real lasting split we’ll just see Dany and Jon rule Westeros together, the bitter part of the ending is just them being sad over everyone they lost. That seems… generic. It’ll also be generic if one of them sacrifices themselves or dies.
Where’s the Dance of Dragons GRRM has built up to? Where’s the “hero vs hero” element that GRRM has said he would love to do? Where’s the big WTF moment GRRM told D&D that happens at the end? What was the real lasting impact of the parentage reveal? What happens to all those impulsive moments Dany had, the show pointing out how much she relies on her advisors to do the right thing? Do they mean nothing?
There’s also some sinister foreshadowing in the books, such as a starving Dany hearing a howling wolf in ADWD’s last chapter and feeling sad, but still “hungry”.
Imo, I don’t buy that the ending is as simple as Jon and Dany tearing down Cersei and ruling together in perfect harmony. That’s not GRRM and they are still going for his ending. There is clearly more to this, otherwise, we wouldn’t have 3 giant episodes to wrap it all up. Something is going to happen between Dany and Jon, the amount of foreshadowing and set up this season alone has me convinced.
Looking more closely at the war map photo… when you zoom in, you can see a partial sigil on one of the scrolls in front of Varys. It looks like the Karstark sigil they were joking about in Ep1. But that doesn’t make sense, so I’m going with everyone else that it’s the Martell sigil which is very similar to the Karstark one.
I’m guessing the rest of the scrolls are correspondence with other houses about whether they’ll join the fight to defeat Cersei. Our good guys have a good case, politically-speaking. The combined Northern-Targaryen forces just saved the entire realm. Stannis wasn’t wrong when he decided to earn his crown by coming to the defense of the Night’s Watch (proxy for the realm). That’s a smart, political move. Will be interesting to find out if they can make the case, though. I think they may need to out Jon to make it easier for the other Houses to join the cause.
I also think that Jon’s new identity may make him more inclined to support the “dethrone Cersei” cause beyond just the promise he made to Dany. Even if he doesn’t want the throne, it’s no longer just Dany’s family they’re avenging. And now that he’s the rightful, rightful heir of the throne he has a bullseye on his back. He has to take Cersei out or, at minimum, he’s going to be fending off assassination attempts the rest of his life. More likely, she’ll take the fight to them. They can’t sit this out anymore than they can sit out the NK battle.
But I’m curious about the markers on the table. The dark ones in the water look Targaryen. The other dark ones are less clear, but I’m going with the Stark sigil b/c it’s a large, silvery, wolfish blob. But the light colored ones don’t match with anything I can find. It’s actually not all that blurry. I was looking at house sigils on the internet, and couldn’t find anything with those markings. It looks most similar to House Arryn, but not quite and it makes no sense that they’d be on that side of the river anyway. It doesn’t look like the Martell sigil to me.
Either way, it looks like they have found some help according to what’s on the table.
We have 3 movie length episodes coming up and we still have NCW, Peter and Lena in the picture.
(Come on, we all knew NCW and Peter and Lena had to survive until the end!)
So… With the exception of Yara (who is loyal to Dany already and standing by to assist), technically, the heads of all the major houses are currently hanging out in Winterfell.
If all agree to back her claim, Dany could theoretically legitimize Gendry as head of House Baratheon. She could validate Jaime as head of House Lannister (I feel the Lannister army might be more loyal to him than Cersei), and that would mean that Cersei has no lords left of any importance to back her up.
So my question now is: WHY ARE THEY WANTING TO FIGHT FOR KINGS LANDING???
Seriously: sort out a new plan, people! Agree to let Dany be “Queen Supreme” in exchange for a different system – some combo of working together while being semi-autonomous rulers of their respective regions. Swap out the Small Council for a rep from each kingdom. Establish a new capital wherever the hell they want, stop sending tax money and resources to KL, and let Cersei drink herself to death alone and abandoned in her castle. Let her have the IT, and just take away any power or importance it has.
The IT is a throne of conquest (literally made out of the swords of the defeated), so build a newer better throne of peace and cooperation somewhere else – maybe Highgarden – I hear the weather’s nice, and it currently has a vacancy.
But no, we’re gonna go have another war because even though the show claims it’s going to give us whiplash with it’s twists and won’t have a “typical” ending, it’s only willing to bust tropes on the smaller, more predictable character level rather than in the bigger picture.
All that being said (puts down tinfoil hat), I’m still looking forward to seeing how the rest of the season plays out. Maybe with a more focused story now that all the distractions are over and loose ends mostly tied up, the writing will tighten up and the plot will become coherent again and we’ll end the series with more of the tension and intrigue that made me get into this show in the first place. I’m far more interested in this show ending how it started: playing the game of thrones, rather than bashing armies into each other.
We have seen this though. She was willing to give up her crown for Daario lol
Even in 8×01, Dany is the one that mentions staying at the Waterfall with Jon. Though I guess one could claim she said it in a joking tone.
The Dance of Dragons is quite clearly supposed to be between fAegon and Daenerys. And since the show dropped that plot line, it seems unlikely it will happen in the show. Unless they do their own version of it without it impacting George’s endgame.
It’s just as well that they were able to forget about the consequences of RLJ during the battle! It wasn’t a given but I said earlier that I was pleasantly surprised by Dany in episode 3.
But still, Dnerys isn’t in Westeros to be someone else’s queen. She’s spent too much time talking about how she was born to rule, that she’s the rightful heir. She’s here to be the queen, and break the wheel.
Does she love him enough to give up her claim? I don’t know. With the way he’s been behaving, Jon hasn’t really given her much reason to choose him over her dream job either. Not to mention that he has no ambition to rule, let alone go south and take the IT. The North is part of him, as he said many times.
onefromaway,
Aw, gee- thanks ☺️
Inga,
While I like your reasoning and I hope it’s actually what’s happening, I can’t but think that Cercei always justified her terrible deeds saying that everything she does is for her family. I hope Sansa is not using the same motto to justify what she does for other personal interests and ambitions. As Jon said he’s family too – even if half Targaryen he’s still their first cousin, raised as a Northener, related by blood and with the same shared childhood and father figure. We’ll see. At this point anything and anyone can be used for a plot ‘twist’.
Dragonbringer,
We know that Children of the Forest used dragonglass for weapons and magic, so their must have been some source in the far North. And actually dragonglass has nothing to do with dragons: it’s volcanic. Valyrians must have used it as a component of Valyrian steel tapping on the same source of magic as the Children of the Forest: that’s why it worked against the NK and WW. But that doesn’t meen that Valyrian/dragon magic was involved – Valyrians had nothing to do with the NK.
As for inefficiency of dragonfire, anyone who whatches the show knew that 99,9999% it won’t work: we’ve seen how WW and the NK walked through fire several times and it wasn’t only regular fire, it was also some magical fire of the Children of the Forest, too.
So stop whinging. The NK has never been Dany’s kill or Jon’s kill. It was Bran’s: it was said in plain text several times. Bran simply chose Arya as an executioner for him, same as Sansa.
Mango,
Briene was a general and Jamie and Pod were under her command. Makes sense.
Maybe the episode….
Raenarys,
How about no. We can’t have a final without her. (at least I hope she stay till the end :()
Dragonbringer,
1. Jaime was right there. He saved a million of people. So why wouldn’t he do it again?
2. Kings landing is not her home. A home is where you grow up or feel safe. She never went to kings landing. Yes it could become her home. And in same way she should get to make it her home. But braavos, mereen, winterfell, dragons tone is more home for her than kingslanding because she already made memories there.
Che,
“Gods no, don”t put them in Crypts!” Sansa and Tyrion.
I didn’t think there was a House Martell anymore? Prince Doran is dead, Prince Oberyn is dead, Prince Trystane is dead, Ellia is locked up… Who can even send their armies?
Netheb,
Well, when Dany saw the AOTD with her own eyes, it became her war. But it was love for Jon that made her go beyond the Wall and see that army.
Bahaha well I definitely DON’T want that. I’m sure you can tell by my screenname that she’s one of my faves.
Dragonbringer,
Exactly. I think she having dragons ensured she always had an upper hand ( she suffered yes) She was found much sympathetic character, cheered when she took Astapor and when she was suffering.. but from season 4 onwards, she hasn’t really suffered much is what ( or that’s the perception the show gave.. like when Selmy died, she was angry, when Dothraki captured her, she was annoyed but never was she this damsel in distress.. since she hasn’t suffered much .. so.. this sort of makes her character distant and even look dark… and see now that she was crying for Jorah.. on fence fans were a bit more sympathetic towards her…
P.S: I tied to avoid condescending tone and use of “fans” lest someone gets offended but I had to use it in the end. 🙁
Kevin1989,
I think he answered to Sansa’s question about attacking Ned in the streets. Even Bran says Jaime pushing him ” you were protecting your family”..
King in the North East,
I thought the producers gave us the answer to that – he was created by plunging a magical obsidian blade into his heart and so the only way to take him out is by plunging another magical obsidian blade into his heart. Nothing else would have done. Didn’t the forging of Valyrian steel required some form magic?
Dragonbringer,
I think they wanted to have some one look like a hero in the show.. All those seasons were bleak with every hero sort of dying ( especially Season 5, Season 4, season 3) and they kind of put these quotes you have mentioned… to make her look strong.. but it went off from her character in the books, where she is still vulnerable and second guessing herself. Hell, the show even made Jon Dumb, where he was very good at administration in the books.. he didn’t see the daggers coming, but he was good in administration and anticipating problems .. for his age… if he does half as good as a king, as he did with his Lord Commander’s office.. he will be excellent… but no, the show has to make him dumb and stupid…
Sansa’s goal in life is not to gloat about being better than everyone at politics. As it was said back in 7.03, Sansa tends not to reveal that she’s good. People also tend to underestimate her, and they’d be wrong.
What else has Sansa done besides “suppressing the temptation to usurp power and staying in the pack”? She listened to the Lords and tried to dissipate their doubts about Jon’s departure, did an overall damn good job at ruling the North by organizing the evacuation and managing supplies and so far gained power through earning the loyalties and respect of the other important political players.
If Sansa wasn’t welcoming towards Dnarys, it’s certainly not to push Jon in her arms lol, on the contrary. She had been worried that he had thrown away everything they’d fought for just because he was in love with Dany. The pack doesn’t need Dany, and Sansa proved that by asking her to grant the north political independence.
If they are clever, they know all Cersei’s plans through Bran. Arya could sneak in with another face, the face of her maiden Bernadette, and kill off Cersei, Euron and The Mountain. No need to attack Kings Landing with dragons or an army. Once Cersei and Euron are dead, the Golden Company will go home. Jaime can command the Gold Cloaks and the Lannister Army.
And if Jon and Dany get married, there is no need to argue who sits on the Iron Throne. Their oldest kid will be the next King/Queen of Westeros and it will be someone with 1/4 Stark blood, so Sansa – as wardeness of the North – should be happy. So there is no need for drama. And everyone can enjoy (a dream of) Spring.
Juri,
I don’t know much of the Latin America, but Czechs and Slovaks have a rather complicated history (both anchient and recent; for instance Slovakia was much more pro-soviet and mostly out of spite against the Czechs) and there’s quite a lot of grunge – not as much as between, say, Lithuanians and Poles, but still. Anyway, back to Westeros: the most passionate secesionist was Lord Glover, who first use support of the traitors-Boltons to get back his castle form the Ironborn, and lately “seceded” from the North himself. Sorry, but such “independence-seekers” do not inspire admiration. And in general, if the North wants independence it has to earn respect instead of making snakry faces to every foreigner. Serious independence-seekers neer do that: we appreciate allies.
BeardedOnion,
“Cersei is all that remains. She’ll obviously lose and if we don’t see any real lasting split we’ll just see Dany and Jon rule Westeros together, the bitter part of the ending is just them being sad over everyone they lost. That seems… generic. It’ll also be generic if one of them sacrifices themselves or dies.”
______
Right. Which is why the Warrior Princess that Was Promised who brought the dawn should reluctantly take the throne.
https://i.imgur.com/Wk6lyQ7.jpg
Kevin1989,
Dragonstone is not her home either , she was born there.. but she doesn’t really remember. But “Home” isn’t necessarily a place one is born. We all know how incredibly emotional she felt when she landed in DragonStone. My father’s father house was never my home.. I visited it when I was 18 and it still felt like home.. because that’s where my family started.. in Dany’s case it’s sort of her family’s glory and also demise… so she can feel kingsLanding as her home… but for Jon it might feel different, because he always thought winterfell and North his home.. because his struggles were more of his identity as a bastard and for Dany her whole identity was a home she would have always had, if the revolution didn’t happen…
Doesn’t sound like the bittersweet end GRRM promised us 😉 imho SS Jonerys has sunk back in ep1.
Inga,
I’m not disagreeing with you in terms of respecting your allies and not giving them the evil eye. But the North does have a complicated history with rest of Westeros the moment they managed to repeal the Andal invasion and their culture. It’s no wonder they are so wary of outsiders (or plainly xenophobic if you wish). By the way, I’m not justifying them in any shape or form, just explaining their point of view.
However, it was Lord Umber (father) the one that initiated the Northern National Revival when he named Robb Stark the KINT. It was then Lord Manderly the one who named Jon KINT after Lady Mormont fiery speech, not Lord Glover. There’s no way you can call him “the most passionate secessionist”.
BeardedOnion,
I wouldn’t say that Cersei is all that remains. There’s the LOL/MFG, too. This diety and its servants really saved the day, but I wouldn’t be surprised, if it claims the spoils of war now. Remember, and the LOL is not a “good god”: it demands burning children and non-believers at stake. IMO, that’s why Bran is still here: the 3-Eyed-Raven/weirwoods represent life, but fire may be as dangerous to life as ice. There must be a balance for life to thrive. And Bran will have to achieve this balance to prevent world’s destruction by fire, as he has prevented destruction by ice.
And Sandor saved her! He sprung into action in spite of his fear of fire to save his little Wolf Girl! I loved that part too.
I’ve been waiting to hear your reaction, so glad you enjoyed it as much as I did! 🙂 So many great Arya moments in the episode. I especially like how she screamed for Beric when he was taking all those hits for her, and then comforted him as he died. He was previously on her list, yet now she comforts him as he dies saving her. ASNAWP!!
I would rather Jaime dies than serve Jon or Daenerys. This path does not fit his arc.
Jon is a lovely person but Jaime is an adult with a much richer arc so far in the story. Jon’s support staff can come from Tormund, Sam and Davos. One option for Jaime is to leave to go to Tarth with Brienne – retired on the beach!
Branflakes,
The can’t “let Cersei drink herself to death alone”, because she won’t be drinking alone: she’ll be sending assassins after each and every of them. She has already started: her brothers, Dany. As long as she lives, nobody will be safe.
Netheb,
Jon’s position in the North is quite tricky: Winterfell is Sansa’s, not his. As long as they are unmarried they can share it as siblings more or less smoothly playing a surogate spouse to each other. However, if either (or both) of them decides to have a familly of their own, there will be a problem. So, it’s time for Jon to move out from his “mother’s basement” and build a home of his own together with the woman he loves as adults do.
Juri,
It’s not so much about xenophobia, but rather about the fundamental rules of hospitality – the guest right, the North claims to hold sacred. Recentry, they have been violating it quite a bit. We can only pray for gods to have mersy.
And Manderlies originate from the Andals.
Anyway, we can agree that the Northern independence issue may go both ways.
Mango,
I like that idea, but after their holiday they can go to the war torn Riverlands and perform acts of chivalry. He could even take over Casterly Rock and continue the Lannister line, and she could live in the castle she dreamed of as a young girl.
He’ll likely die though… sigh
Book Jaime might care about Jon, he liked and respected Rhaegar, and was supposed to look after his children during the war iirc, but then the Mountain happened.
Brienne will be head of her house on Tarth. Why would they leave? This is not for a vacation, this is for their new life.
Yes, he could die. But he will not.
Mango,
Isn’t her father still living? Either way, I want them to be together, I just want this one thing.
Hey, this is no time to be a Debbie Downer! 🙂
Rheager needed to look after his own family.
Jaime was young, alone and assigned to the king by himself. And was in a different building from the poor wife that Rhaeger dumped.
Rheager had 3 or 4 Kinsguards with his new teenaged wife and left 1 person with the king and his other wife and children and the king’s wife and children.
Jaime may worry if he did enough if the same sense I worry if I am doing enough when I see famine victims on TV.
Inga,
Guest right is about neither the guest nor the host harming the other for the length of the guest’s stay. It has nothing to do with courtesies and comities.
Yes, House Manderley originated in the South and they were welcome in the North by the Starks in exchange for their pledge of fealty… what of it? It doesn’t change the fact that it was Lord Manderley the one that proclaimed Jon the KITN, not Lord Glover.
Yes, her Daddy is doing well. This is why she can be wandering around. But after her adventures in the world, he may want to see her start producing kids and see to the future of their House. Jaime can help with both these topics.
I know religion in GOT is complicated, but I couldn’t help trying to make an association to the faith of the 7, guess Brienne’s knighting brought it back to mind 🙂
the Father – Jon Snow – the leader who brought them together
the Mother – Daenerys – the giver of life (freeing the slaves and oppressed, birthing dragons)
the Maiden – Bran Stark – the innocent who they are there to protect
the Crone – Melisandre – Wisdom and foresight (wasn’t always right, but was a guiding hand, bringing Jon back from the death alone was the big assist)
the Warrior – Beric Dondarrion – the warrior who couldn’t die until his purpose was served
the Smith – Gendry – forging the dragonglass
the Stranger – Arya Stark – final death blow
Are you saying that JonxSansa makes political sense? 😉 jk.
Well, I’m afraid history has proved you wrong. Independence nearly always had to be won through conflict because diplomacy and negotiation didn’t work.
Doesn’t mean the people asking for independence are xenophobic though. It’s called the right of a people to self-determination. And the North has been asking for it since Robb was crowned.
I know we are all biased about our favorites. I’m guilty of it. I’ve stated my problems with how D&D have handled Jon, with some of it just being me whinging about some things that don’t necessarily damage his overall story arc(namely him not having a more prominent role in the final showdown with the NK). My contention is they have harmed him by making him dumb or “slow”, as D&D have called him. That doesn’t jive with book Jon. I think the overall story of Jon is that of a conciliator. A leader who can bring all of these disparate people together for the greater good. You can argue the show still accomplished that, but by making him dumber and having him fail so often and require needing to be saved by others so often, his accomplishments are drowned out a bit.
So with regards to Dany, I still see a few of the same people swearing that the show is turning her into this mad queen that is completely opposite to the books. I don’t think they mean for her to be crazy at all. And I’d argue that the books very clearly paint her as the conqueror. It’s stated clear as day at the end of ADWD “dragons don’t plant trees”.
She lost sight of her ultimate goal to take back what she believes was stolen from her in order to try and stabilize Slaver’s Bay. In the end, that got her nowhere. She conquered it, and yet she could not successfully rule it. That doesn’t necessarily mean she couldn’t successfully rule Westeros, but in order to take it, she will have to be the conqueror, and that means using her nuclear weapons, regardless of how many innocent people die in the process. I still believe that is where we are headed. She is going to use the nukes on KL.
The question remains who will be with her when she does it? Will going nuclear be what could potentially turn Jon away from her? Will it be something Sansa does to undermine Dany? I don’t know, but one of the only thing that can prevent a cliche ending is Jon and Dany being in opposition to each other. Hero vs hero.
Ten Bears
I’d just like to point out how fucking insane it is that you were so right about ASNAWP! I thought it was mostly parody or sarcasm. Nope! It was clairvoyance! So you are probably correct on this account too. Arya kills Cersei and takes the throne. ASOIAF? More like ASOASNAWP!
Would you care to share the lottery numbers for this week?
You’re asking the questions and answering them yourself imho. I think you’re right, Dnerys is hell-bent on claiming the IT and will certainly attack KL in the next episodes. And when she does… I expect several allegiances to switch, if they yet didn’t.
In the eyes of the people she’s coming to rule, her telling people to kneel or die–and burning those who refuse to kneel–is an incredibly scary thing and it won’t help her at all in gaining popularity. It will only make people fear her. Obviously Dny can’t come to grips with that truth and she’ll certainly suffer from the isolation she brought upon herself.
Branflakes,
I like your thinking.
BranStark,
Oh sorry I though you meant the part about killing the mad queen. My bad.
But still I understand Jaime for doing everything to save his brother. I think that’s why bran understood it.
BranStark,
That’s what I meant. She didn’t remember. As for kings landing it’s a dream about happiness. It will not grand her that if she loses Jon in the process of it. Home is where your love ones are. Where you feel safe and welcome. She will be much happier in winterfell. And I think she would even be more happy if she just stayed with daario, at least that’s what I think. Now she got only biggering coming her way.
Mango,
Wouldn’t that be lovely.
BranStark,
This is her basic psychological issue: she never had a real home, family or friends. I wonder if she will realize this and opt for the future that can give her these things. I have no idea where the physical location of home could be. Psychologically, it would be where she can have the love of family and make friends.
the unburdened,
This works for me!
Netheb,
Have you ever fought for independence of your country? I did for mine and and several others. Yes, enemies are hated, but allies are embraced and glorified, because when you get allies from outside, you feel like your fight matters – not only for your god-forgotten country, but for the world.
Interesting story. Given that, I am curious why you would be keen on the Targs re-capturing and re-subjugating the people of Westeros.
Or why you oppose the North’s dream of independence. (Let me say that I think the North should stay with union anyway).
Did you feel that your allies from outside should then rule your country because they helped you? That you should surrender your new independence to those that assisted?
Just curious.
This is my second choice for Jaime should the story go in a direction that I do not expect! And it can go in several directions – a full half season remains.
I hope HBO realizes their mistake and fixes the lighting for the DVD and future airings. I could follow along but I know I have enjoyed the episode more with proper lighting. For those who say there was no issue, please stop pretending like everyone is crazy. If the lighting wasn’t a problem then so many people would not have complained about it.
Wolfish,
It’ll take me a while to catch up. Still exhausted from that last-minute work project. But looking forward to watching and reading reactions. Maybe over the weekend…
After reading through Comments section, I’m going to check out Burlington Bar reaction video (I assume the crowd will go apesh*t over Arya); OzzyMan review video; and Laura Stone’s Heydontjudgeme.com commentary.
I had expected to see lots of Arya fighting scenes, but had no idea she’d be the focus of the episode.
#ASNAWPTWP 👸🏻
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Ha!
If there were free elections or merit-based ruling system, Arya wins in a landslide.
However, I don’t think the show will go so far off-book as to have Arya herself kill Cersei.* My money’s still on “the little brother” choking Cersei to death – and my tinfoil theory is that it’s Aegon “the little brother” Targaryen who will do the honors. That’s not to say that Arya won’t get in a few slashes to the torso first so Cersei’s lungs fill up with blood. 😃
* As much as I’d like the show to be a portrayal of “A Song of Arys and Sandor.”
Wolfish,
PS. I just watched this Burlington Bar S8E3 reaction video excerpt. It was fun. They did go apesh*t.
at 0:55
viki,
Nice! I was pondering switching out a few but as I thought it over I think your choices are really good. Thanks!
Ten Bears,
THAT WAS FUN!!!
Thanks for posting this highlight from the longer video!
Glad to see you back posting, Ten Bears. When I watched the episode Sunday night and saw Arya taking out the NK I thought how excited you and the other ASNAWP posters would be. It was fantastic! Long live ASNAWPTWP!
Netheb,
I think after that conversation with Samwell Tarly and Tyrion giving her grief about the Tarlys I don’t think she will be very much inclined to burn Captured nobles atleast
Theres not as much time as you think, and you’re arguements aren’t less whiny than others. It’s a series where theorizing was half the fun and they mostly kept it straight forward. The “twist” if you want to call it that, I wasnt shocked nor was I unhappy she got the kill as long as a stark or raised stark even theon did it, didnt feel earned. You can point out off screen training and a library scene in which she struggled so much that it made that shit look waaaay too hard for her to manage against such a high number that packed together, but surely you can see how others wanted more detail without being whiny or throwing fits right?
Bianca Funk,
Sanitary and efficiency reasons. The best you can do when you have large numbers of corpses rotting in your courtyard.
If fans were voting, then, well only if all the Incels could not vote. (And every fantasy fandom has a ton of those)
If it were actually in Westeros, then it basically would be like the election of Napoleon III. Of course, Westeros has not gotten as far as some sort of Magna Carta yet, so that’s not going to happen.
How would Cersei think “Oh, THAT little brother!” if Jon killed her? Remember, the prophecy is for her, not for us! I think that Jaime foreshadowed it a few years ago: he’s going to die in the arms of the woman he loved at that time. The books have some analogous foreshadowings. (And, again, “it’s too obvious” cannot be considered an argument against this; GRRM wrote this without expecting people to group think it into obviousness.)
The people never were “unsubjugated”: they just had different subjugators. Many of the families still in power fought to keep them in power. And one thing that the books make pretty clear is that several of the Targaryen monarchs were pretty good kings.
And they’ll make Arya get married…. how exactly? Jon might have the guts to try to take on a dragon single-handed: but he’s not crazy.
Gendry would have zero ability to influence it; he has no social standing and even if he was legitimized, he’d still have zero say.
My bet is that they’ll have some minor fun with it; but it won’t be a big narrative point. (It’s hard to see how it could fit into the story at this point.)
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I wish I could provide lottery numbers. 😉
I will say this though. The thrill I got from watching my little warrior princess mowing down zombies with her double-DG-tipped stick spear; saving Sandor with an arrow fired at a wight behind him; her validation as the Lord’s Chosen by Beric and Mel; and then, using the VS dagger flip move to pulverize NK and save the world….
… has finally lifted the heartbreak that’s haunted me for over thirty years since my beloved Miami Hurricanes failed to get into the end zone with s first and goal from the 3 yard line in the closing minute of 1987 National Championship game. That was the end of my sports fandom.
I don’t know what the connection is between the two. Perhaps it was getting involuntarily emotionally invested (again) in that little girl who zinged her arrow and took a bow – and then all these years later turns out to be the savior of the world.
P.S. Totally unrelated comments:
1. F*ck Lord Glover
2. F*ck Olly
Kalelvis,
It’s not. GRRM said he wanted it to sound sharp like a knife “Are-ya”
Off topic…cute story about a woman’s wish for her last days…to see the Battle of Winterfell. And they got her video messages from several cast members!
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/01/entertainment/game-of-thrones-hospice-trnd/index.html
Nope. Karstark. No spear, too many “rays.”
Wow, it’s almost like canids can, like, move or something. That’s a Nature paper…..
Ten Bears,
that little girl who zinged her arrow and took a bow – and then all these years later turns out to be the savior of the world.
Yeah, rewatching solely from an Arya-centric perspective is pretty amazing. It’s like we get a reminder of all her previous lessons in one battle, very beautifully visualized.
Shooting arrows (Winterfell and the Brotherhood), Her staff and tumbling (FM training)
Running and silence in the library 😉 (Chasing cats for Syrio and running from Trant)
I saw some art of her imagined on rooftops getting to Godswood-which would have been her balance training if they’d gone that direction.
Then being with the Hound (that’s where the heart is) and Beric, who initially brought our two favorite road trip buddies together, saving them both to get her to Melisandre for the final Syrio reminder.
I think I’m one of the sad goofballs that wants to believe Jon saw her and distracted the dragon (not only because it would mean one of my favorites hadn’t just gone batsh**crazy and said screw it, I don’t even need my sword), but that she ended her journey to kill the NK with a nod from the person she’d loved most, who started everything off by giving her Needle.
Let me see if I get that:
1) Independence means that you have no-one ruling your country. No-one, not persons from among the kinship/community that has built social capital due to shared history and genetic, social and economic bonds over millennia. Independence is general disorder without any rulers.
2) Since a country needs rulers it does not matter if your rulers are your conquerers. Subjugation to a conqueror is the same as having a ruler drawn from your kinship/community.
3) And if your conquerers are as competent as the Targs, why would want independence?
The question still stands to the poster, why she would want independence for her country? Perhaps the answer is that the conquerors were incompetent and they wanted a new set to subjugate them.
Wimsey,
Yeah, I don’t see marriage happening between Arya and Gendry (though I would love for that to happen), but it does bring to mind one thought I have for the next episode. No one can deny that Arya deserves massive recognition for saving the day, so what if Dany offers Arya a reward — anything she wants. And Arya asks Dany to legitimize Gendry. Even though he doesn’t pose a direct threat to her rule being bastard-born and not being a politician of any kind, I don’t think Dany would be too thrilled at legitimizing a Baratheon. It’s just one more tough choice for Dany..
Ten Bears,
I love watching their reactions! My husband thinks I’m weird. “Wait, you’re watching people watch the show we just watched?”
Yeah. I know. But admitting the problem is half the battle, right?
Every time I see that photo, I want that dress a little more. I’m a woman in her 30s who is tall and built more like Brienne than Arya, and I want that dress. Sigh.
When Sandor picked Arya up like a sack of potatoes and ran with her, it took me straight back to the girl desperate to get to her family at the Red Wedding, only to be restrained by Houndie. Little wildcat carried off by her dutiful pup. 🙂 I didn’t expect Beric to fling his sword like that. And he sure appealed to Sandor’s regard for her! My dear Beric and Jorah….to lose both of those voices…I still can’t rewatch it.
And that arrow taking out the wight, to Sandor’s confusion! Haha, yes!!!!
Davos standing there watching her, like “Whaaaaaaaaat is this???” 😜
Ok, I’ll stop nattering.
Yes! Honestly that was one of my favorite bits.
Ten Bears,
Maisie absolutely nailed that fighting scene on the ramparts! She looked amazing!
Shhh… the episode is airing again on HBO right now!! 😀 I swear I’ve spent almost all of my time this week either watching the episode, clips from the episode, reaction videos if people watching the episode and reading comments about the epidode. I can’t get enough!!!!
I don’t know. I don’t think he’ll serve anyone necessarily, but I think Jaime might still lean in a Stark/Jon direction. Their initial meeting, Bran, his promise to Cat, and Brienne’s connection to Sansa and Arya all have him pretty tangled up in Stark story line. I don’t know if it ends with the NK battle or not.
But unless and until he learns that 1) Cersei is with Euron 2) Cersei sent Bronn to kill him 3) Cersei may not actually be pregnant with his child–I doubt he’ll be on Team Destroy Cersei.
I actually would love it if they got to retire on Tarth. I hear the water is blue as sapphires. 🙂
Dan and Dave were just on Kimmel. They talked about how the show came about and did a skit of them telling Momoa he was dead. Kimmel did ask a couple questions about the rest or the series.
Dave – “I’m not going to answer that.”
Kimmel – “Did Bran know that Arya was going to kill the NK?”
Dan – “Possibly.”
Kimmel – “Will someone take the Iron Throne?”
Dan – “Possibly.”
For some reason it really made me smile, despite the circumstances. 🙂
JamesL,
I loved the lighting, and the storm, and the blizzard. It was so utterly frustrating, and made everything hectic and chaos, and as a consequence, made me feel part of it. I say this from a point of view of experience. I have been onboard a yacht in a cyclone, looking for markers through the mirk, with my heart in my mouth, wondering and fretting every moment that we would get that deafening crunch and lurch that signaled that we had hit a reef. I know this feeling, and i know this frustration. And this episode brought all that back, and the gut tangling fear of it all. It was mesmeric viewing. I don’t believe that it was a mistake.
Pigeon,
There is nothing wrong with wanting that dress. My wife (going on 70) would like to wear that dress. You either got to have that spark of life within or you don’t. I mean, she wouldn’t wear it in public, (she hates the spotlight on her) but around the house? definitely!
Wimsey,
It’s almost like Targs are Federal govt. and seven kingdoms are more like states
Mango,
Well, it’s a complicated question. Take my country. Our history with Russia is occupation upon occupation with all the suffering involved. However, when we were breaking from the Soviet Union in 1988-1991, Russian democrats were our most faithful allies and it was Boris Yeltsin in person who stopped the tanks in January, 1991. He was a corrupted drunker, but then he did a truly noble thing, and we respect that and remember. And, although we left at the end, there was quite a bit of that feeling that maybe we should have stayed with our Russian friends to start from the blank page, to make the world better. And later it was a great tragedy to find out, that most of the Russians turned to be unable to foresake their imperial ambitions, but, if it ever happens, if the people of good will ever prevail there, some sort of allience wouldn’t be impossibe, cause it’s really painful to lose friends you found on the barricades…
OK, I’m getting too emotional, I guess, but that’s how I see things. So, back to GoT, I see Dany a bit like Boris Yeltsin, though way more attractive:) And the North doesn’t have any alternative choice in a form of “wealthy West”. So, IDK: I can see the North becomming independent, but it has to prove to be worthy. So, far the northerners look more like a bunch of whiny children, than responsible adults ready to take responsibility for themselves and others.
He can still do that though, even if he kills Cersei. Perhaps Cersei stabs him as he throttles her and he then dies in Brienne’s arms.
It kinda has similarities to the demise of the Kingsguards Erryk and Arryk Cargyle at each other hands.
Wimsey,
I think that Jaime foreshadowed it a few years ago: he’s going to die in the arms of the woman he loved at that time.
Wimsey,
Sorry what do you mean? Canines? It’s been pointed out further up the thread that if you zoom in on one of the photos you can just about see Ghost behind Sam. I was mistaken. Easy mistake to make.
So you’re just being sarcastic? Is that necessary?
Mango,
Let me add one more thing. Self-determination cannot be only for the sake of self-determination: people and nations can self-determine to do bad things and they often do and in such case the right of self-determination becomes null and void. For me and for my country independence has been about taking personal committment and responsibility for making the world a better place: “God, let us be revived and let our DOINGS be right.” And there was no wibe of such committment in case of the Northern independence – at least not from the side of Sansa or the Norther lords. That’s why I have a bit of a problem with their independence issue.
Clob,
I’m also enjoying it to the fullest while we still have it. I love that I can watch On demand. Just got done with a 3rd viewing and am much happier with the episode now. Of course, my head cannon was that it would/should go one of like 5 ways and it didn’t but that’s okay as long as most of it makes sense. I appreciate the spectacle, all the hard work put into it. I still can’t make everything out but much more than the first 2 times.
TheLannistersWin,
Shhh not allowed to complain. Sing with me now “happy peppy joy joy….. Lol
For her own good, I very much hope that Dany learned from her mistake of burning the Tarlys. I kinda doubt it though. She didn’t seem to have regrets at all. Her face was like “oh crap, that thing really had to come back and bite me in the a**”. And no apologies were made.
I haven’t. However I come from a country that was once a large colonial Empire. We never allowed the people there equal rights, did terrible things to them when they started to protest. The last 2 or 3 generations here know how wrong we were then.
As for the North, obviously they don’t see Dnerys as an ally, for good reason. She didn’t come north to free them from Cersei, she’s here to take Cersei’s place and wants the North to bend and surrender. How does that make her any better from Cersei in the Northerners’ eyes really?
Jon was raised for a purpose just like Beric. He’s dead, Mel died. So Jon will die 🙁 I wonder what will end up being his further purpose cause he’s not dying next episode. He must be needed to beat latecomer dread pirate Euron. Why make him a hidden king though? Is just to impregnate Dany and keep the Targ line going? Anyway, I’m prepared to have my heart broke. Further foreshadowing: The citadel comment to Sam about a drowned god’s storm wiping out Aegon (what was all that again?) and Sansa saying Jon’s heart will stop when he sees her.
ygritte,
Yeah, I was worried about that too. Wasn’t Jon brought back so the WW could be dealt with? According to that reasoning, Jon should 1) have played a bigger role in the NK’s demise and 2) just like Mel, have died right after the deed was done. And he’s still alive and kicking. Which makes me hope that he’ll live 🙂
(btw Sansa’s comment was that he was gonna drop dead from the happiness of being reunited with Arya :-p I think we’re safe for that)
lol.
Cue The Game Revealed interview with D&D after Cersei’s death:
1st D: We felt everybody was expecting one of her brothers to kill her because they’re the ones who’ve had the most meaningful and deep relationships with her.
2nd D: But that would’ve been predictable.
1st D: As would the trained super ninja assassin Arya.
2nd D: It just didn’t feel right for this time.
1st D: And Sansa now knows how to do it because Arya taught her: Stick them with the pointy end.
2nd D: And we wanted her leaping out of nowhere, I mean, from behind the Iron Throne to be that surprise moment.
1st D: We kind of foreshadowed it in season 1 when she looked up to the Iron Throne and the camera moved behind the throne.
2nd D: Nevermind that we only decided Sansa to be the one to kill Cersei three years ago, while writing season 7.
1st D: But yeah, it works, it’s a great surprise GOTCHA moment.
Mango,
In this argument and in one we have had previously, the emphasis seems to be on what the high lords and ladies want. What would Sansa and her ilk, the other wardens of their respective former-kingdoms, want? Of course it would be to be free to reclaim what they feel is their (by now) ancient birthright and rule their own kingdoms. However, it truly only benefits them. For the lesser lords, noblemen and the small folk, nothing really changes. They are still ruled by a monarch, just one closer to home who shares more of their heritage their culture. This may be important to some, but if their long memories serve to remind them of how proud they once felt in their national pride, I am sure their long memories will also serve to remind them that before the formation of the 7 Kingdoms, they were a lot worse off.
GRRM, in his Fire and Blood, book states that before Aegon the Conqueror came, the kingdoms were always at war with one another, that never did a year go by without several of them warring. Where Kings constantly battled over expanding their kingdoms, it was the small folk paying the price for it. Since the formation fo the 7-Kingdoms there have of course been wars (most bloody of them being the civil war The Dance of the Dragons which plunged the realm into a violent, bloody, fiery chaos), but on the whole, there has been a lot more peace since the Targaryens came. During Jaeherys I’s long reign, the population of Westeros doubled in just his first decade of rule – this goes to show that under the Targaryens, all of Westeros thrived.
The Targaryens improved life further by introducing laws that benefited the small folk – Queen Alysanne, who often held women’s courts to listen to the women of the realm (all women, even the prostitutes of moles town) abolished the law of the ‘First Night’ which allowed lords to have the first night with any woman that married in their lands and she also introduced a law that meant widows who were the second or later wives couldn’t be cast out of their homes after their husband’s died – which apparently was the common thing done before this law. The husband’s children from his first marriage would evict the later wife and make her destitute. King Jaeherys introduced a law that taxed the rich (instead of the merchants and small folks) where if lords and ladies wanted luxuries like spices, silks etc. these would be the ones to be taxed and a new tax on expanding and building castles. Jaeherys also built all the major roads of the realm, making life easier for everyone.
For almost everyone, apart from the displaced descendants of the former kings, life was much better under Targaryen rule and the former-Kingdoms prospered. We haven’t been shown that the small folk or lesser lords hanker for the days of their former kingdoms. As was pointed out to Dany, the small folk don’t care who rules them, as long as they have a good harvest and peace. Going back to independent kingdoms who constantly war with one another removes their peace and returns them to constant warfare and who benefits exactly? Only the elite few who have their long-craved power back.
Personally, I would put the wellbeing of the many in front of the pride of the Great Houses.
Ah, Ten Bears, I’m so happy you’re so happy!
Arya was great, wasn’t she? I also just loooooved the dagger drop and BOOM! in it goes.
I’m fine with Arya striking the final (well, actually, the only) blow. All her experiences, suffering, training had to amount to more than petty revenge, mass-murdering Freys etc. BRAVO!
I don’t like the execution, from her scene with Mel to the final surprise COTCHA moment, but that’s a minor complaint.
And now I’m more worried than ever about Arya. I think Inga here pointed out that she hasn’t really paid for her superhero powers. Despite all her suffering along the way, she’s always had protectors and mentors, most of them quite benevolent after their fashion. Every trial, tribulation and suffering was a lesson, to her benefit. Even the HOBAW were happy to let her break rules… to achieve this purpose?
So, if she now has fulfilled her purpose… what next? Happy retirement bonking Gendry? Or payback for all she has done and not done, for all she has received?
Or more superhero stuff, taking down Cersei, Euron, the Mountain etc.? Except GRRM does not write superhero stuff and D&D’s ending will be the same as GRRM’s.
At least, let us celebrate Arya this week while we can! 😀
For her own good, I very much hope that Dany learned from her mistake of burning the Tarlys. I kinda doubt it though. She didn’t seem to have regrets at all. Her face was like “that thing really had to come back and bite me in the – “. No apologies were made.
I haven’t. However I come from a country that was once a large colonial Empire. We never allowed the people there equal rights, did terrible things to them when they started to protest. The last 2 or 3 generations here know how wrong we were then.
As for the North, obviously they don’t see Dnerys as an ally, for good reason. She didn’t come north to free them from Cersei, she’s here to take Cersei’s place and wants the North to bend and surrender. How does that make her any better than Cersei in the Northerners’ eyes really?
(hello friend moderator, my comment was deleted a 1rst time but I don’t know why?)
Except her name is pronounced AR-YAH. Are ya? Not aria. Or what do I know, maybe it’s the Song of Arya and Arya after all. ;-P
The preview trailer for next week’s episode seemed to show Dany raising a toast to cheering northern crowds in Winterfell’s Great Hall (with no Jon in evidence, but that might just be camera angles).
The Jon/Dany relationship, his parentage, her lesser claim stuff needs resolved. I can see some conflict brewing up there. Not necessarily straight-up Jon vs. Dany but Sansa, Arya, Bran vs. Jon vs. Dany, giving Jon a nice dilemma to grapple with. Human heart in conflict with itself, GRRM’s stated intention in writing this story.
“What do direwolves eat, anyway?”
Apparently Ghost didn’t eat much. Certainly not much of the CGI budget.
He was shown charging into the AOTD, but he veered off. “I’m not doing this shit. My human’s all taken up with that new pet. Why am I even here?”
talvikorppi,
Well it would be pretty cool if it were Sansa who kills Cersei right? 😀 she could put that necklace of hers to good use lol
It’s not really a matter of “ancient birthright”; that argument has never been brought up in the lastest seasons.
The difference is that if they took their independence right after the BatD, they wouldn’t be forced to follow Dnerys in the South and fight her war. If they are, both the nobility AND the smallfolk will feel the consequences of that, as they’d be asked to contribute to war effort with food or new recruits.
The thing is, the Northerners are very war-weary. They already gave Jon and Sansa a hard time back in season 6..
Inga,
Thank you, I wish you and your people well.
However, I believe that self-determination is a basic human drive. Even babies in the cradle want it. Like your countrymen, other countries also want it. I am not sure who decides who has earned it or not.
Che,
Is your country independent?
I once sat thru a long explanation of why slavery was better for black people because they were happier, well fed, had houses and low crime. They were in America and not in Africa which was worse.
Many think the US was better in the 50s before the civil rights movement as well. These arguments are very similar to what you are saying about the Targs.
Thank you for saying this….
I am shaken by the number of people willing to argue for the subjugation of a country as occurred in the original Targ invasion. I sometimes wonder if they have any basic understanding of the psychological damage to a conquered people – you lose your self-respect, you lose everything that makes you get up in the morning. GRRM describes how the Westerosi fought the dragons when they arrived, I do not think they saw the same advantages that some posters describe.
Jorah died in the arms of the woman he loved. Did you notice that? He did not mention that even once as far as I can remember.
Do you think Tyrion will die in the way he keeps saying? Do you think that is foreshadowing too?
If Jaime dies when he is 80 in the arms of the woman he loves, will you consider it fulfilled?
My parents are from Wales. I don’t know how well you know the history of the United Kingdom, but Wales was conquered and until the late 20th century there was a concerted effort to stamp out Welsh culture (speaking Welsh in schools was punishable with the cane even late into the 20th century). There was always a hatred of being conquered by the English, a defiance that even my dad, born in 1952, felt strongly. The Welsh are a very proud people and feel very different to the the English, who they feel conquered them. I was raised an expat in Holland and yet still I was told numerous stories of the crimes the English imposed on the Welsh by my dad.
Could Wales function as an independent country now? No. Would my dad get behind a rebellion for independence? No.
Your comparison isn’t appropriate and quite insulting to be honest, and has a whiff of moral superiority about it. Those comparisons contain instances of genuine racist abuse felt by huge numbers of people who clearly were not better off prior to being granted the same civil liberties and rights as those who had previously denied it to them. How on earth is that relevant here?
Tell me, how would going back to independent kingdoms who are always at war with one another benefit people beyond the new kings and queens that would emerge and the ruling classes? Would the small folk rejoice at being thrown back into war, chaos and the famines that follow? The creator of this series and this world has stated the kingdoms were always at war. Do you doubt him?
talvikorppi,
hahahhaah! this is the best thing on internet today for me !!
He describes how the lords fought him. He also describes how thousands upon thousands of Smallfolk cheered and celebrated when he was crowned king.
I love that the next half of the season is a blur. In their publicity they keep chatting about the WF battle – even Bronn chatted about it even though he was not in it.
There are several ways the story could go.
I wonder if the best move would be for Daenerys to offer the North and the Vale independence in exchange for help with the war against Cersei. The trouble is that Sansa would know that as long as she had dragons that Daenerys may not honor her promise as she is determined to rule the entire country including the north.
I also wonder about Sam. Jon just walked by and left him for dead. Sam may have issues with that despite their close friendship.
But does she have two dragons?
Show and books may have a different canon/explanation to dragon riding. Maybe the show’s is just a muddle, a question of expediency for plot reasons.
However, in book canon, dragons form a unique, life-time bond with someone once that someone first rides that dragon. As per book canon, and perhaps show canon (but that’s a muddle), Dany lost control of Rhaegal once Jon rode it. Rhaegal is now Jon’s dragon, not Dany’s. She cannot control Rhaegal, order it about to do her will, only Jon can.
Ooops, that dragon joyride date was a huuuge mistake on Dany’s part, lol. She just gave away her other remaining dragon, lol.
The show hasn’t really established dragon-riding rules. D&D said in an interview that only Targaryens can ride dragons, so Jon riding Rhaegal in S8E1 is kind of proof of R+L=J even before Jon or Dany knew about it. Dany seems unaware of this Targ blood precondition, she just seems to think my dragon will let my boyfriend ride because momma thinks it’d be cool. She was unaware of the implications because she was in luuuurve. Fair enough.
The dragon riding dilemma was not addressed in S8E2 or S8E3 – though it made perfect sense to me that Jon was riding Rhaegal during the battle in S8E3, I just thought Dany couldn’t control it anymore, it was now Jon’s dragon. But we never saw a scene Dany realising she’d lost control of her other dragon, which was a bit weird.
Maybe the show will brush over this, and Dany will still have control over both Drogon and Rhaegal, thus dumping book canon about dragon riding. I can live with that, it’s just an example of plot expediency over story consistency. Bit of a shame, but we are where we are. I still love the show, it’s the best I’ve ever experienced. That doesn’t mean I cannot criticise aspects of it.
Netheb,
She felt bad/uncomfortable that much was visible, but I think as James Hibbered pointed out in his review, being a King/Queen means standing by your decisions. One can’t go apologizing for their decision that are in the past, but they can surely learn from them and do better in the future.
Netheb,
I don’t think we can compare Westeroes with British empire–>
Targs didn’t take the wealth of westeroes to Valyria or to Essos to enrich their native people. So British empire looting all the colonial countires and denying them their rights, and countries fighting for their freedom is different from USA states wanting to secede from Federal govt.
Westerosian empire much resembles like USA which has different state governments and Targs acting as federal government.
that’s my opinion.. Also as Che pointed out Targs did plenty of good even Areys’s rule was okay while Tywin was his hand for 20 years..
Well, once he won and is crowned, it makes practical sense for your survival to be among the cheering crowds. Once the battle is lost any possible resistance has to be underground and only whispered at night. When Hitler marched into many countries in Europe, many people “made nice” because they were more focused on survival given the new boss in town.
Did you think there were enough high-born to put up a fight? The fighters are mostly usually common soldiers. Small folk always bear the brunt of these battles.
Did you notice that the small folk cheering Euron when he dragged in his prisoners? The same smallfolk who cheered when Cersei walked in the street when the Faith looked to be dominant? Why do you think this happened?
Che,
Thank you for stating this.
If we are going to be against monarchy and subjugation then let’s be fair in calling every great house present in westeros.
Why stop with Targs alone. Does people really think for 8000 years a family never went to war and had bad monarchs.
All this independent talking is nothing but the Great houses wanting to have the power they once had. They don’t care about people. Sansa can only be Queen if the North is not part of the 7 Kingdoms.
Listening to some of the comments it makes me wonder whether I missed the part where Targs killed every great houses and placed their very own member as a leader of each regions and burnt down all the Weirwood tress and old gods and new gods. Made the people follow their religion and customs.
Jorah had it right The Smallfolks doesn’t care about who sits the IT. So if we are going to be against monarchy then be fair and call out everyone or people really believe there was not any bad monarchs in the past and there will never be any bad ones in the future. Can anyone say that with certainty.
I don’t know if you’re yet to answer my post before that one where I ask if you think the Smallfolk would rather return to constant war and strife or the relative peace the 7-kingdoms gave them and their populations thrived? Those same lords used the Smallfolk in their endless wars against one another when they were kings.
Have you read Fire and Blood? It makes compelling reading and does speak of genuine love for the Targs by the Smallfolk. You can question GRRM for the veracity of those claims.
Huh?
It would be if the Americans (ie Westerosi) were the state government and Russians (ie Targs) had conquered the US and now were the Federal government.
Over time, the Russians went mad and an American (Tywin) worked hard to keep things together until even he had to run away and get back to his state.
Under Robert after the rebellion, Americans are at both state and federal levels.
Che,
Also, I personally think Sansa insisting on Northern independence is her own ambition and self interest. It’s not anything noble or higher aspiration and puts her on the moral high ground than Dany. If Dany wanting to have Iron Throne is being power hungry, so is Sansa wanting independence for North. Sana won’t be introducing any democratic process in the North.
For worse or for good, I guess only night’s watch and ( shudder) Iron Islands have a bit of democratic process of choosing a leader
Che,
No-one can make a compelling case for rule by conquerors. It does not exist.
Mango,
And how about the current American( cersei) sitting in the Fed govt is raving lunatic who will do anything for power and a Russian-American ( Dany- their ancestors did rule for 300 years… I don’t know how many years of settlement will make you native of the land) who is much better at ruling wants to dethrone the American and rule in relative peace by uniting all of them … ? Dany isn’t a foreigner , she might have grown up there ( but that wasn’t her choice, she was fleeing assassins, and she was born in Dragon stone.. she asks Joarh in the season1 episode 1 – Are you from my country ser) she is as much as westerosi as anyone else is.
Ignore this post, I saw you responded later.
No, I have only passing familiarity with the history of Wales. Let me ask a question however, has there been extensive intermarriage between the English and the Welsh over a long period of time? This tends to erase the differences between the two communities. They become one and move away from conquered and subject.
I did not mean to insult you about slavery. I just wanted to point out that this conversation reminds of others I had had before. People were better off – so why not.
Mango,
From my own Country, Ashoka is an emperor/ conqueror but he is beloved and brought relative peace to the country, by actually uniting it under his rule. Otherwise small royal families were at constant war. If we are talking about Monarchy, if Karstarks or Umbers or Glovers want independence, will Sansa be happy to do that? then there will be people with bunch of lands and will always have fights to gain control of other’s lands… without really any regard to rule of law, where no one is above them to enforce it.
No, there was no intermarriage. The English annexed Wales and the Welsh needed to then pay homage to the royals of England. The Welsh said they would not be ruled by a prince born in England who spoke English. So to answer this, the next prince of Wales was born in Wales. His father (I forget which royal) lifted him to the crowds in Wales and said “here, here is your prince. He was born in Wales and he doesn’t speak a word of English.”
The situation in Wales was graver than in Westeros. In Wales, Welsh culture, language and heritage was eroded purposefully by the English. In Westeros, the Targaryens ensured that the customs and practices of the separate kingdoms were maintained. They did not enslave or force their ways on the Westerosi.
The comparison with slavery is insulting because it bears no semblance to this situation and your using it implies that anyone who disagrees with you on this is in some way validating the evils of slavery. It
Let me look back to the points raised to see what I missed. I am also reading other posts as well.
Nope, I do try to respond to the issues raised. If I am missing I am sorry.
As for the Europeans, excellent question! The Europeans have still not been brought to account for the violent, immoral conduct towards other communities worldwide. However, I hope that will happen. It will not happen in our lifetime.
There is no clear path forward and smarter people will need to figure it out. I do not have the skills to do do. I think Canada is making a decent attempt to acknowledge a dreadful history and find a way forward given that everyone will need to live together. Mandela also tried to find reconciliation in an impossible situation. There may be other examples.
You seem to forget that BOTH Jon and Sansa promised to “never bow o anyone else again”…
It may not be enough for Sam though :/
talvikorppi,
I don’t know lol, you may be right. That being said, it didn’t feel like Jon had full control of Rhaegal. Doesn’t he have to speak Valyrian to dracarys anyone? Rhaegal was shown to breathe fire on the AotD but I wonder if he wasn’t just emulating Drogon.
It also didn’t look like Jon (or even poor Kit Harrington lol) was 100% comfortable being on a dragon’s back. His “You’ve completely ruined horses for me” sounded as truthful as his “yes, they are gorgeous beasts” in 7.05 haha
Yes, when we are talking about Democracies. But if we are talking about Monarchies, sometimes ( not all the time, sometimes ) the conquering Monarchs unite the warring fractions/tribes and establish peace. ( like Targs did)
hahhahaha! Very naughty!
I actually hope they find another way for her to go out. The brothers would be so dull.
Che,
Interesting that the Welsh are fine absorbed with the English but the Scots seem to be strong in their seperate identity.
But the Scots seem to be keen to be European but the English are not. Even though this is not conquering but a voluntary choice. (And a good one at that!)
Do you know how the Welsh voted on Brexit?
Netheb,
But he did. Not just to get Dany’s help but he genuinely believed that she will be a good Monarch.
and she asks tearing up ” I hope I deserve it”
and he says ” You do”. So, he did already. It’s Sansa who is having a problem now.
Yes, they can. And in some cases, the conquered communities are content with their new overlords as the Welsh seem to have been. (Note that thanks to Che, I am now an expert on Welsh history!)
In the Westerosi case, after centuries, they rebelled. Let us not forget that. We have clear evidence that they were not content.
So why would we want them crushed again and by the same set?
You raise a good point about how much fragmentation is allowed. I am at this moment considering declaring my own yard to be a separate country. I will be monarch!
Look at it another way, if an intruder marched into the Glover’s house and declared it to be theirs because the intruder had a dragon and Glover does not, I would think Glover would have cause to complain. Then intruder joined up Glover and his quarrelsome neighbors and ruled them together for a long time. Maybe the neighbourhood became more peaceful. Then imagine the dragon finally died and one of Glover sons killed the intruder. Glover may be happy, right?. Can you imagine if the next week, the intruder’s daughter turned up with a new dragon and told Glover that she deserved rule because her family and ruled them before….
Mango,
My apologies! I posted too hastily as I thought that was your response to my longer previous text. I then saw you responded at the same time I posted and quickly edited that post, but clearly you caught it before I could! I was too impatient 😂
Mango,
Robert rebelled against Targs because he thought his betrothed was kidnapped and Areys burned people. Dorne, Reach, Westerlands didn’t join the rebellion. Starks did because their lords were burnt, Robert for Lyanna and Vale for the sake of Ned and Robert. So, it’s sort of 50/50 there..
Yes, but the how long do one stay in a country and inter -marry ( Baratheons have Targ blood, Dornish have, Tyrells have I am not sure about the other houses ) and still be an outsider? If one settles there for more than 300 years. Are they still outsider and intruders?
Why did the north rebel? Because a bastard Lannister was sat on the iron throne whom had just executed their beloved lord. Why did they rebel a second time? Because another bastard Lannister was sat on the iron throne, only this time, the Lannisters had added to their crimes by facilitating the heinous crime of murdering Robb Stark, his wife, mother and entire entourage while protected by Guest Right. This is why the north sought independence, to be free from Lannister rule.
When Ned and Robert were victorious, if the North had a great desire to be independent, why did Ned not ask Robert for independence? Robert would have granted him this wish – they were the best of friends and Ned had helped win the war, but as far as we know, he didn’t even ask. He gladly agreed to be warden of the north and we hear no murmur of rebellion or independence until Ned has been murdered by the bastard king sitting on the throne and holding Sansa (and Arya they believe) prisoner. Their drive to be independent has arisen because someone illegitimate, who wrong their family, sat the throne. How will they respond if they find out Jon is the legitimate heir to the throne? Will they feel the same we wonder?
Edit to add: If you are referring to Robert’s rebellion, they were rebelling against Aerys personally, who was an evil king, not being member states of the 7 kingdoms. Had Rhaegar (as he had plans to) forced his father to abdicate and take the throne, beloved as he was through the realm, that rebellion would not have happened.
I have read this and it’s quite funny and also kind of good? I suppose:
Pasting the article here, also here’s the link :
https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/where-did-arya-jump-from-the-game-of-thrones-battle-was-riddled-with-problems-1.3876301
Arya Stark jumps from out of the blue to slay the Night King – and with his destruction Game of Thrones jumps the shark. So many fans have concluded following a hugely divisive third episode of the HBO saga’s final season.
The problem isn’t Arya killing the Night King. It is that the show arguably doesn’t put in the hard work to build up to the moment. What should be a triumph, for her and us, instead feels cheap, throwaway and silly – like something from one of Disney’s terrible Star Wars movies.
Arya has, it is true, trained with the Faceless Men assassins at the House of Black and White. But there is no suggestion she left Braavos a super-ninja who can circumvent the basic laws of physics. Nor does her creeping up on Jon in the Godswood in an earlier instalment give her a free pass to slip through the Night King’s protective cordon of White Walkers. They’re cold, not blind and stupid.
What, moreover, of Jon’s story? He has been set up in the George RR Martin novels as an underdog for whom fate has a manifest destiny. But at the Battle of Winterfell he spent his time wandering around flummoxed and falling off dragons (as does the Night King because, well, why not show the undead manifestation of nature’s inevitable victory over mankind tumbling earthward with a silly grin?).
Some fans, it must be acknowledged, adored The Long Night. They thrilled to the huge set-pieces, were delighted little Arya became the star of the series – absolutely nothing wrong with that – and are looking forward to Game of Thrones returning to the more satisfying business of the clash between Cersei and Daenerys.
Nobody has the right to tell such viewers that they are flat out wrong – or that they should not be allowed to enjoy Game of Thrones as it exists in 2019 (very different from the series that arrived on our screens in 2011). So let us instead confine ourselves to prising apart an episode with so many plotholes and muddled character moments that Cersei could have stampeded a herd of elephants down the middle.
1: How does Arya get so close to the Night King?
Arya trained as a face-changing killer at the House of Black and White. What she did not train as was a gravity defying space-ninja who can shift the powers of time and entropy and suddenly manifest mid-air in front of the Night King.
Show-runners David Benioff and DB Weiss, to their credit, alert us to Arya’s quasi-supernatural abilities as she hides from the wights in the library (which is obviously super-hushed because what chance of hearing the pitched battle taking place literally in the adjoining rooms?). She tiptoes quieter even than the sound of her dripping blood.
Well done, Arya. The problem is the Night King isn’t guarded by wights but by the more advanced White Walkers (presumably they are more advanced – the show hasn’t bothered to tell us). And yes, there is that quick shot of a Walker looking puzzled as something ghosts by. But it is nonetheless preposterous that a recently-qualified assassin could simply skip a phalanx of heavily armed undead and then – while screaming her lungs out – launch at the embodiment of evil.
How, for that matter, does she jump so high? Did Melisandre have a trampoline hidden beneath her cape? Has Arya discovered a Valyrian steel pogo-stick behind Lyanna’s statue in the crypt? Can Bran now project anti-gravity beams with his mind?
Beside all that, the very concept of Arya Stark, super-assassin doesn’t hold up. In Braavos she studies stick-fighting and face changing. But she is a long way from unassailable and lucky not to be killed by the Waif (who, typically of late-stage Game of Thrones, hates Arya for absolutely no reason).
Arya’s voyage to Braavos is, in fact, the story of a traumatised young woman trying to suppress her feelings – already numbed as demonstrated when she walks away from the dying(ish) Hound – and her sense of self.
Related Game of Thrones season eight, episode three: ‘I pumped my fists. I yelled at the screen’
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Hence her determination to become “no one” and step outside her own identity and its unhappy history. What she realises in the end is that she was Arya Stark all along – a victory that has nothing to do with her super ninja-assassin skills. The arc is about a damaged person reclaiming their identity.
Online, there has been a suggestion that viewers objecting to the Arya storyline have an issue with a young women turning out to be the ultimate heroine of the series, rather than Jon Snow (the “Mary Sue” word has been bandied). This is absolutely not the case.
It would be fantastic if Arya was revealed to be the one we should have been keeping an eye on all the time. It’s just that the episode bends the laws of plot and logic so far out of shape to get her to the Night King that her big moment is rendered worthless. If you want to do justice to a character – then do them justice.
2: Why isn’t the body-count higher?
The fantastic preceding episode, A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, gives big touching moments to characters who clearly believe they were about to go out and die. But once hostilities commence, magic armour is slipped on and, with the exception of Theon and Jorah, the stars survive unscathed.
The problem is that it become obvious early that no-one is going to die in regular fighting (Theon and Jorah’s moments are saved for big set pieces later). Thus all the tension fizzles out.
So Grey Worm suffers not a scratch despite standing in the front line of the Unsullied defence (where many of his men are instantly cutdown). Jorah rides out with the Dothraki, the only one without a flaming blade. Yet he trots back unharmed – refusing to look at, much less speak to, his fellow defenders (perhaps they’d appreciate a heads-up Jorah?)
Sam, Jaime and Brienne, for their parts, are shown struggling under a deathly press of wights again and again. Yet they never feel in genuine danger. The same applies to Jon Snow. Remember how terrifying that single wight was when it attacked him and Ser Jeor in series one? Now he is surrounded by dozens of the undead and can easily bash his way from outside the gates into Winterfell.
3: What is the point of Bran?
Bran’s storyline was always the slowest and most conventionally fantastical on Game of Thrones. Yet we bore with him in the expectation it was leading somewhere. Where it leads to is him sitting in the Godswood with only Theon, the Iron Born and their puny supply of arrows for protection.
There is no point to Bran, at the end, other than to serve as bait for the Night King. He does at one stage warg into some crows – but only so that Benioff and Weiss can give us a cool shot of the Night King flexing on his dragon. To think of all those who sacrificed themselves for Bran – Osha, Jojen Reed, Hodor… and this is what we get: a riddle-speaking weirdo who exists simply as a great big MacGuffin for the NK to chase.
4: Where did the Night King’s storm come from?
Jon is revealed to be pretty useless on a dragon within moments of the battle commencing. And he is foundering utterly when the Night King’s arrival is preceded by a stormfront. As is Daenerys and at one point they almost collide mid-air.
Did the Night King summon the storm? If so, why not use it to freeze out the defenders of Winterfell or cloak his arrival at the Godswood. If not – is it merely a coincidence that the weather has turned nasty just as the NK is making his climactic, years in the planning assault on the castle?
5: Why didn’t Beric turn into an undead?
It’s all wight on the night as the Night King works his juju and the fallen defenders of Winterfell are resurrected as blue-eyed undead. But why not Beric Dondarrion, who died for the 17th and final time defending Arya in the castle? As a repeat visitor, does he get a free-pass from zombie resurrection?
6: What is the point of Tyrion and Varys any more?
Remember the Battle of the Blackwater? When Tyrion is revealed to be both a strategic genius and also a natural leader, who will stand with his men when others (cough Joffrey) run snivelling.
Why doesn’t Game of Thrones like him any more? Rather than have him up top helping sort out the useless tactics (see below) they wedge him in the crypts – alongside Varys, another brilliant mind of whom Game of Thrones has no more need. On the subject of crypts and the wights spilling out, how was anyone surprised that an army that raises the undead…would raise the undead?
7: Why did the zombie giant pick up Lyanna Mormont?
He’s a giant and he’s a zombie. All he wants in life (well, death) is the freedom to stomp around killing people. Why, then, would he lift to eye-ball height annoying child/head of House Mormont Lyanna – and then afford her the opportunity to stab him bang in the socket? Is it because Benioff and Weiss thought it would look really cool. That’s exactly why George RR Martin conceived of the Red Wedding. Because he thought it would look “cool”.
8: Why did Melisandre walk into the waste and die?
Melisandre once suspected Jon Snow of being the mythical Prince Who Was Promised and to test her theory even tried to tempt him into some oath-breaking cuddles at the Wall. She later seemed of the opinion that the Prince was more than one person – potentially Jon and Daenerys. But no, it appears it was Arya all along – despite this failing to occur to Melisandre when she met Arya in season three. Well okay – but why after all that did she need to die? Because the Night King is defeated and her work is done? Could the show not have elaborated the teeniest bit?
9: What about the useless military tactics?
Isn’t it rash to send the entirety of your Dothraki cavalry into battle before you can even properly see your enemy? And to then position your infantry in front of your flaming trench? Which isn’t actually flaming yet because oops, your dragons are lost in a storm (a storm? in winter? who’d have imagined) . And why put the trebuchet catapults outside the wall where they can be easily overrun, rather than inside?
The biggest blooper of all obviously is leaving Bran more or less alone with just Theon – a very apologetic chap after all he’s been through but nobody’s idea of a champion – and the Iron Born for protection.
Of course the Night King could also be accused of short-term thinking. He is the biggest weakness in his entire army – an achilles heel with a spiky head attached. And as Jaime points out in episode two, it is unthinkable he would place himself in harm’s way. When he dies, after all, all the undead fall apart.
He does precisely this, of course, striding around Winterfell without a care in the world. The Arya hit-job is horribly botched from a storytelling perspective. But, given his cock-of-the-walk deportment, it’s clear that if she doesn’t get to him someone else will.
10: Why did they bother building the Wall thousands of years ago?
This isn’t the Night King’s first journey to the realms of men. During the original Long Night he led his hordes south (and with giant ice-spiders too). But then he was routed, Bran the Builder constructed the Wall, and the Night’s Watch was created.
Considering how easily Arya took the NK out, it all seems such a waste of effort. All Bran needed to do was sneak up on the Night King when he wasn’t looking and poke him with some Valyrian steel or dragon glass. Less building, more thinking (or stabbing), Bran.
BranStark,
I did not response on the foreigner bits as last month on this website we had some long discussions on blood vs birth and cultural communities etc. If I can I will look for one of those and repost it.
exactly. I second this.
Now imagine Glover has been fighting pointless wars with his neighbouring holdfasts and getting his people killed (because they’re the ones that do the fighting, not him, he remains safe in his castle), and then along comes the intruder and stops these wars from continuing. The people who are ruled by Glover and his fellow lords don’t care who is sitting in the castle, they just care that they get to carry on with their lives without being asked to die all the time for their lords’ greed. These same people’s lives improve further because the intruder brings them roads, fairer laws and all the while keep their customs, faith, language and ways. Are these people going to want Glover to come back so they can die once more for his greed? Oh and Glover has since intermarried with the intruder’s family for hundreds of years by this point.
Nope.
Jon yells in impotent rage, frustration. Losing it all, and failing to protect the ones you love – Brienne and Cersei have articulated this sentiment and Arya has demonstrated it (Ned’s beheading, Red Wedding). It’s just AAAAAAARGH!
There’s no secret glimpse of Arya, no Jon helping her, no matter how much reddit folks try to convince themselves otherwise. D&D themselves confirm this. No sight of Arya after the Mel scene until the surprise GOTCHA moment of Arya leaping out of nowhere.
I can understand fans trying to explain it. I like Arya jumping from the heart tree, climbing it before the Night King came… though that leaves her quite cold-blooded to watch Theon and the Ironborn doing their all to defend Bran, then Theon alone, killing the wightified Ironborn, his brothers-in-arms, then to get killed, before she has her perfect moment.
I have no problem with Arya killing the Night King. Mostly I think it’s great. The problem I have is either her apparent invisibility (getting to the Night King without any of the hundreds of wights or dozens of White Walker lieutenants noticing) or her callousness in hiding in the tree and letting Theon and the Ironborn do their stuff, be killed, be reanimated for Theon to kill them once over before she can leap out of the tree to do her stuff. OK, it’s what was needed, a right thing to do, but at what cost? She did it, with apparently no human heart conflict, which isn’t GRRM’s way at all.
I’m more than glad that Arya killed the Night King. She was a fitting person to do it. Now what?
I’m more than ever scared for her. She’s had her big moment. She can now just die. Probably in a bad, ironic way. Lannister guard #23 accidentally kills her, that type of thing. GRRM is not one for superheroes, like show Arya seems to be turning into.
Che,
Yes, I was referring to the rebellion against the Targs. This is what we were discussing.
You will note that after the rebellion, Robert and Ned could have sent for Viserys to rule as they knew he was alive if they wanted to continue with the Targs and considered Aerys to be a personal matter only.
Once Robert was dead, Ned could have sent for Daenerys or reveal Jon. Instead, he selected Stannis. It seems to suggest that Ned understood that a different line of succession was in place.
Yes, this format sometimes makes a mess. No worries.
Yeah, well, I’m not so sure about that anymore.
Lately there has been quite a few clues that makes me wonder whether Jon just tried to both have his cake and eat it too.
We saw him bend the knee but yet he’s promised never to bow to anyone, publicly explained that he “had a choice, keep [his] crown or protect the North. [He] chose the North”– doesn’t sound like he was able to make a free choice. Most of the time he’s miserable or closed off around Dnerys.
Maybe he’s still loyal to the North and still believes in their independence. I may be wrong but I smell plot twist.
(And btw, if I understand you correctly, are you implying that Sansa is: selfish, power-hungry, useless, deceitful and hypocritical? That’s a lot of faults for just one character lmao)
Are you arguing that the north want to be independent or that everybody hated the Targs? They’re two different points. And in the end, Jorah’s words ring true on the Targaryens element – the small folk won’t care who is in charge as long as they get peace (especially after the recent wars).
Robert wanted all Targs dead because of what he believed happened to Lyanna. We now know that was a lie and his killing of Rhaegar and his wife and children to be senseless murder. Rhaegar was innocent of the crimes Robert killed him for. I don’t see how using him as an indication for how the realm feels is relevant.
I think we’re entering into a slightly different debate here when the point we have been discussing is whether the north (and the other Kingdoms) want independence and whether it is in the best interest of the people (note, not the lords).
Che,
Yes, that could be the way it worked out.
Except, in this case, the Glovers and their neighbours rebelled together and the small folks were the armies. It was a host of northerners that went with Ned – not just a few highborn.
Also on the intermarriage – The Targs had specific practices intermarry among themselves, they married with the locals rarely and only when necessary. They are actually very much defined by their racial purity.
Did Aerys not think Elia smelled of the Dornish?
Che,
I have to disappear – to make a living.
But yes, I wanted to focus on the independence issue but in the wider context of whether the Targs have any right to rule Westeros at all.
In short – I think the North should stay in but that the Targs have no right to rule. But if the Targs rule again then the North should leave the union.
Later.
BranStark,
So he did not like it then?
Grant D&D some slack, they have to take this story home without the book.
Yup! Many great Arya moments!
PS I just read in a Richard Dormer interview that Beric had a final line as he was dying that was cut from the finalized, as-aired episode. With his last breath, he looks at Arya and tells her: “Live.”
I would’ve liked to see that. It would’ve added some emotional heft to Beric’s “Hold the Door” moment when he blocked the corridor with his arms spread out to allow Sandor and Arya to escape.
I liked the episode. The only one I have watched thrice this season. But I would be lying if I say, I am not disappointed a bit. At least in some small stuff such as.. when they man the walls… They could have used barrels of oil and fire again to kill the whites. It’s like ancient castle defence 101, even if the enemy is not zombies.. Also.. if they wanted Sam to be a hero and also survive… he could have been in the crypts and saved someone when the dead rose in the crypts.. stuff like that.. but they arise in my mind only when I re-watch and think about the episode.. not while watching it.
Yes.
And with some symbolic dimension too — letting the dead go; the reverse of vengeance (it’s a way of not letting the dead go, and keeping the vicious circle of death rolling ), that looks like the initial unbalance setting the story forth (and giving strength to the AotD??) — actually, the pre-story vengeance of Robert against the Targaryens, based on a lie (self-deception?). So far, I think Jon is the only main character that has never be linked to vengeance (Dany has been shown pondering the limit between justice and vengeance; Bran is, whatever Bran is; Jamie is not a “main” character, but he could be added). Wonder if this will come into play and how.
Mango,
If sam has issues with jon over jon’s priorities then good, kill sam and fuck him. any reasonable person would expect that jon’s concern for bran would outweigh his concern for sam every moment of every day that ‘bran placed himself in the godswood as the target for the nk, on purpose, to draw the nk out’. That was the plan. If sam has a problem with that then sam has seriously got some real issues.
The armies are always made up of small folk among the hedge knights and lords. They fight for various reasons, but as we saw from the Lannister soldiers that Arya encounters, they consider it someone else’s war, not their own cause. I really feel we have to listen to the in-world rule that has been established by characters living in Westeros – “the small folk don’t care who rule them as long as they have a bountiful harvest and long summers.”
The reality is that pre-unification there were a lot more wars (as per GRRM stating that before Aegon the 7 individual kingdoms were always at war with each other). The reality of constant war is that it is the small folk who suffer the most. The kings went to war over expanding their own realms into one another’s. So the wars were for the greed of their rulers. Not for the wellbeing of the small folk whatsoever. Under a unified seven kingdoms, they had comparatively longer times of peace and according to GRRM, the population thrived. The small folk were allowed to continue their lives with their language, cultural practices, religion, customs unchanged. Yes, being conquered hurt the former ruling families, but on the whole, lives improved. We’re not talking about democracies or fair societies being conquered and everybody’s lives being made worse and we’re not talking about people being forced to change their language/religions/customs against their will (like the Welsh).
GRRM also states in his Fire and Blood history that before there were seven kingdoms, there were infinitely more, smaller ones. They were united under conquest and then united against conquest once more. It seems to be unaccepted form of nation-forging in Westeros. In Fire and Blood there are numerous examples of Targaryen princes, princesses and kings and queens who were adored by the realm (according to GRRM’s own words). I just don’t think they feel the same as you with your 21st century values. The north rising up, wasn’t to overthrow Targ rule over them and finally be independent once more (if it had been, then Ned would have done so when he had the perfect opportunity to seek freedom for the north), it was because they were at war with the Lannisters, who had the iron throne.
Also, after reading Fire and Blood (I ask again, have you read it?), I am really surprised at how often the Targ’s intermarried with others. Yes, there is brother and sister, niece and uncle, cousin and cousin etc. marrying, but every generation I have read about so far (I’m up to 130 after the conquest) has had plenty of intermarrying with the noble houses. After the Dance of the Dragons (the part I am at now), there are far fewer Targaryens around, so I imagine the intermarrying can only increase. And thus far in the book (over half way through) there have only been a few mentions of Targs being mentioned as some form of greater form of man – their rule of exceptionalism, which allows them to go against the faith and practice incest actually comes from their cultural background. Some rulers are obviously megalomaniacs, but then so is Cersei.
Something else to consider, how well will the north be able to protect themselves with their entire generation of fighting men virtually wiped out? If they became an independent kingdom and the new ruler of the iron throne agreed to leave them alone, what is to stop people from Essos coming across and staking a claim, or the individual lords on the border encroaching into their land? Or rogue iron born unhappy with the new rule claiming a holdfast for themselves? Truthfully, the north cannot protect itself and I honestly don’t see how they could function independently.
When Jon is revealed to be a Targ and knowing Rhaegar did not rape Lyanna, that will go a long way to healing the rift that formed when Aerys murdered Rickard and Brandon. Especially when they see Daenerys isn’t her father and sacrificed her armies to defend Winterfell. I can’t see why they can’t be a part of the 7 Kingdoms with a Targ at the helm given all that has happened.
talvikorppi,
It’s quite possible, that Dany will realize the cost of the dragon joyride next episode. We have the scene with dragons next episode and I guess the showrunners are not splashing on the SGI just for the sake of cool visuals. The scene has to move the plot forwards, and Dany realizing that she has lost control over Rhaegal is one of the possibilities.
wow bran, you’re lonely. you need to go rent a hotel room and get layed.
BeardedOnion,
Tragic for any empathetic viewer who isn’t scum, actually.
: wow bran, you’re lonely. you need to go rent a hotel room and get layed.
How can I ? I am the three eyed raven now. And have no more purpose to serve. But I guess I can watch over other ppl though 🙂
WUT?!?
I’m assuming, perhaps wrongly, that you are U.S. American. And you question independence?! Huh?!? As in, would you rather be a colony of England?
Independence. Desire for self government?
Y’know, people actually living in a place deciding their own things, not just have a weak and meek say in the foreign culture empire/big country capital far away. The central government that imposes policies you don’t want, policies the central government/bigger country wants because they and their economy benefit from them. Not yours, because your economy is so different. Tough shit.
Questioning the desire for an independent country really is strange. Only old imperialistic superpowers do, and new imperialistic powers.
The North kneeling to the dragons has to be re-evaluated – they might now have a dragonlord more favourable to their cause in Jon. Which might cause problems with Dany.
Whatevers, the show will probably use all these things to create the last 3 episodes and the ending. I’m sure it’ll be interesting.
I tried to clarify in a later post. I understand the desire for independence and what has driven people to strive for it in our history, many times including years of strife and persecution. I was just talking about this fantasy world and the timeline during the telling of “A Song of Ice and Fire.” I’m saying that the talk of independence in the North just kind of popped up. It wasn’t a thing at the beginning of the story and they went to war because of Joffrey killing Ned. Their goal was to unseat him and later turned into having their own kingdom, which they haven’t had for centuries. Once Rob and most of their men were defeated that was the end of that. They have no means to force anything for a long time and without help they’re not going to have independence. On the show they appear(ed) to at least have an opportunity to take steps in that direction but Sansa is so hell-bent on the “new” independence point of view that she’d rather challenge that opportunity and certainly achieve nothing than to work with it.
Che,
Why do you think Wales incapable of independence? Because they’re too small, too stupid and too poor? The same schtick Scots have been told. Too wee, too stupid, too poor.
If my people had believed the too small, too stupid, too poor propaganda from our subjugator, we wouldn’t have claimed our independence more than a hundred years ago.
Che,
What a great discussion about independence issues!
Just a few points. The right to self-determination comes with responsibility, and unfortunately many people tend to act more like naughty children, than responsible adults. Take the Ironborn: there independence sentiment is mostly about reeving and raping, cause that’s their way of life, you now. LOL. Should such nations be given the right to self-determination? I think not. And some “cultural” phenomena has to be ripped out route and stem.
On the other hand, when it comes to empires, empires don’t pop out of nowhere. They emerge, because some people/nations find ways to make thing work better than others. Even when it comes to purely military strength, it doesn’t come from nowhere: you have to have a functioning economy to mantain it. So, I wouldn’t say that qonquest is all that unfair: that’s how the god or mother nature decides, who’s worth to be independent, and who is not. Everyone has a choice. If you committ to regain your independence, you get your shit together, you find ways how to resist (yes, just like in Wales, the native tongue in my country was also banned for 40 years), – until you prove yourself worthy to the gods and mother nature, so to say: then and opportunity occurs. However, you may very well decide, despite of all the grievances. I can see why your father wouldn’t fight for the independence of Wales – secession is risky: you may think that you’ll make things work better, but you may very well find out that you and your nation are not the mastermind heroes you thought yourself to be.
Back to the North, think it’s very clear that the North will choose to support Team-Targ agains Cersei, same as the Wildlings chose to support Jon against Ramsay Bolton, and it won’t be even a big deal. IMO, the next episode will focus on Jon & Dany forming Team-Targ-United after some struggle, acquiring addtitional support and going for the IT in the end. (which makes our discussion about independence issues a bit irrelevant, but still very interesting).
talvikorppi,
And you woudn’t have defendend your independence in 1940. But as I said: it depends on how big a sacrifice a nation is committed to make.
Soo… back on the e4 topic… 😛
I want to see Arya go find her staff and then bring it to Gendry to have him replace the dragonglass with good, solid steel. I would say Valyrian steel but there still doesn’t seem to be any unclaimed to be used. In any case, if there’s more fighting to be done I want to see more of her with that weapon! Or… make her a sweet, new one: http://pngimg.com/uploads/spear/spear_PNG51.png
People have been suggesting that they leave Winterfell for KL with a stop at Dragonstone (fireplace shot) or Pyke. I won’t disagree with the possibility/probability but is that really a logical or wise thing to do when they’re so limited on fighters and ships? I suppose with dragons they should be safe from Euron attacking them on an island huh…
Sorry for stepping in! I know Sansa said, “And we said we’d never bow to anyone else again,” in 802 but I don’t remember Jon making this declaration – but I could have completely missed something, as I do! I remember Jon saying his people won’t accept a southern ruler but was there something else?
Not enough natural resources (especially since mining ceased). An elderly population (but that’s a lot of English retirees – especially in the north). Young leaving the country for work. Bad infrastructure – there’s no motorway that goes the length of Wales and to visit the coast is a ball ache. I went to uni in Cardiff and lived for 4 years in Wales – you had to leave Wales into England to take the motorway north and then reenter Wales to visit the north of Wales where my relatives lived and where my parents came from. To go through middle Wales took bloody ages! I played hockey while at uni and when we had away games on the coast (towns such as Aberystwyth), it took all day to get there and back (geographically tiny distances). And Wales doesn’t have a strong economy. I just don’t feel it could (or wants) to make it on its own – and this is despite there being a strong ‘national’ pride and a sense of injustice in being conquered. The United Kingdom is far from feeling united and the separate nations do feel lie different countries in terms of national pride and enmity between states. i.e. if England are playing football, my Welsh relatives would support every adversary the English faced. Perhaps it’s because there are different ethnic groups in play – the Welsh, Sccots and Northern Irish are from Celtic origins and the English from Anglo-Saxon backgrounds.
LOL!!!
Not gonna lie though – were Sansa to snap and execute a well-placed jab to Cersei’s ear with her necklace stabber, I’d cheer. 😂
Thank you for this detailed post regarding the rule of the Targaryens. As someone who has not read the books, I found it very helpful.
BranStark,
All very good questions. Only upon my 2nd or 3rd and last viewing when I tossed these aside and just enjoyed the spectacle for what is was did I truly enjoy it. Though the library zombie scene was overlong and thus boring each time.
Netheb,
We all assumed it means nothing now that they’ve reunited and his heart still beats but what if it foreshadowed a later event where he sees her just before he dies?
I dunno. In a way now doesn’t it feel like Jon has become more of a plot device or to further along other character’s arcs? Part of me feels it can’t be true because they’ve built him up so much previous seasons and made him a hidden prince which has to have pay off for him BUT we just saw how the NK and WW were wiped out after much build up and with no reasoning behind why they were.
Maybe Jon already did all his part and now what’s left and the Aegon thing is just to present a challenge to Dany’s character and/or make a baby Targ.
Though he will be useful in the war with Cercei I don’t believe he will do anything huge. It’s the female characters with the key roles this season. I believe it was Maisie Williams herself said this.
talvikorppi,
I needed that laugh. Sad part is I can really believe this is D&D talking 🙂
I’ve been frantically catching up on articles in anticipation of tonights episode. To be honest I have mixed emotions, it really feels that this will be a case of after the Lord Mayor show and we won’t get too much plot progression other than character interaction.
My guess is the following:
– We better not get Jon handing the throne to Dany or the Northerners suddenly pledging allegiance, she has earnt there respect after the last episode but not their devotion.
– We will get the fall out of Jon’s heritage, I suspect Dany will move to take the throne and demand Jon follow her.
– If Dany is pregnant then we will find out about it tonight.
– Sansa stays in Winterfell, for the rest of the season.
– Given Dany no longer has an army perhaps we see Daario return as a long shot.
– Bronn turns up but is ultimately foiled in his attempt to kill one of the Lannister brothers.
– We won’t get any deathes.
Either way I have no idea and this episode is seventy minutes long too!
ygritte,
I understand what you mean.
Some say we’ve been cut off Jon’s POV for too long and it’s a terrible mistake to do with a main character because you don’t know how he feels anymore. Hence the (in)famous theories about political!Jon.
I was fully expecting the NK not to last long because he was, imo, never supposed the final antagonist. I think Dnerys is (or will be), so they had to get rid of the WW quickly.
Episode 3 was like a pause but of course the fact remains that by learning about RLJ, Danerys lost in one fell swoop her new boyfriend, her claim AND her identity (she’s no longer the Last Targaryen and she’s a little less special too).
She’s understandably upset but her paranoia immediately jumped out. In ep2 she was suscipious of Jon already: he’s a threat to her claim, Sansa is a threat to her authority. Now she’s lost Jorah (who gave his life for her while Jon didn’t do much to help her acclimatize), and GW/Missandei want to have a life for themselves in Naath.
Nothing good can come out of that, and Jon will have to choose between his Targ side and the Starks.
Same. I have a feeling this episode will focus heavily on arguments between the surviving group on what to do next. Dany is clearly chomping to unleash fire and blood, meanwhile Cersei is preparing to defend the city by surrounding herself with wildfire and the common folk as a human shield.
I just cannot imagine Jon being cool with any of this and he’s the rightful heir to the throne, so yet more tension with Dany who may or may not finally break bad.
I don’t know if anyone else follows @YeahClarke on twitter (he/she is an Emilia super fan and usually well clued up on GOT) but they are having a major meltdown right now about Game of Thrones and are super unhappy with S8. Not sure if it’s in response to tonight’s episode or past episodes yet.
I’ve seen a few like that, the general public seem to love the episode and the ending. Most of the complaints are coming from the more passionate book readers (my observation – yes I’ve read the books too).
Wow. Amazing pics.
Nice!