The Game of Thrones panel at San Diego Comic Con went down today, with Rob McElhenney moderating and a flock of GoT people in attendance. Showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss, director Miguel Sapochnik, and cast members Sophie Turner, Kristian Nairn, Isaac Hempstead Wright, Iwan Rheon, John Bradley, Faye Marsay, Conleth Hill, Nathalie Emmanuel, and Liam Cunningham all joined the discussion onstage in Hall H.
The panel was a mostly lighthearted affair, with the panelists apparently drunk on vodka, thanks to Sophie Turner’s urging, pre-panel. The cast shared their thoughts on a number of subjects such as the ever-popular endgame of Game of Thrones-type question, and fielded queries from fans in a more open Q&A.
A particular note of interest, for those keeping track of the schedule: when discussing the previously announced delay for season 7, David Benioff says, “We don’t finish shooting until February, there’s no way to finish post, there’s no way to get the show out there ’til summer.”
The panel highlights and Q&A video:
The panel finished with a new Season 7: In Production video already posted here.
It’s fun, but wholly uninformative.
I always enjoy Conleth and John Bradley. I never enjoy Sophie. Faye Marsay was fun.
Hodor
HA!! I think she’d make an excellent bad witch in some movie.
The waif was easy to hate on the show, but man, Faye is nice to look at. 🙂
Low-information (no-information, really), but that was to be expected. They rarely said anything much at prior conventions, and this time they don’t even have the scripts yet.
I always enjoy Sophie’s ultra-carefree attitude.
Wow Faye Marsay looks very different from her character, I didn’t even recognize her. She is very pretty. Nathalie and Sophie gorgeous as always. I wish Peter, Lena, Emilia and Kit were there too.
Do we know if there is a piece missing between this channels two videos? I ask because he was going down the table one-by-one and totally skipped questioning Iwan.
Sean C.,
Agree about Sophie
She’s awesome
I’d add Maisie too. She’s always fun
Same, I had to think for a minute about who that was when I first saw the group photos.
Sophie declaring she REALLY doesn’t want to do a love scene with Kit was the best part.
Not much new info, except Sophie Turner’s statements further support the idea of real conflict between Sansa and Jon next season. I guess her character is be in danger of going back to her season one likability.
Clob,
Totally, Maisie is awesome 🙂
Also it was nice to hear that Sapochnik hopes to be back for S8.
I’m with Sophie on this subject. I just don’t get the shippers with those two characters and it’s not because they’re related. Sure, she has red hair which Jon prefers. Other than that they’re not a good match imo. Ygritte was perfect for him and she’s a complete opposite of Sansa.
Watch Sophie take a shot of vodka out of the cap of her water at 18:50-18:58 in the first video. It’s while Missandai (Natalie) is talking. Her, Iwan, and Faye are all laughing and she shows Faye the cap, then they clearly pass it under the table and then Sophie takes a shot out of it. You can see Conleth briefly look down at her and then look up and laugh and shake his head. It actually all starts around 18:20ish. I guess I just have an eye for bad behavior having done so much myself when I was her age. Hahaha.
https://twitter.com/EW/status/756608744713224192
Sophie’s lost the plot. This is just bizarre. Jon fought the Wildings at The Wall AND the White Walkers at Hardhome…and the White Walkers just happen to be the biggest threat of all. Jon has seriously seen it all. Please Sophie, just stop.
Weiss nodded his head when asked about Sapochnik coming back for Season 8.
John RaynorSnow,
I was going to comment on the vodka remarks and forgot as I’m watching. Sophie is 20 years old. The legal drinking age in the US is 21. California does not have an exception for public consumption by anyone under 21 including foreigners. I don’t have a “stick up my ass” and don’t give a shit, but they probably shouldn’t be commenting live that she’s drinking even though so many do at the age of 20.
Dee Stark,
Sophie looks like a really fun and nice girl, but I disagree with everything she said. I know the writers and actors have hinted the rivalry between Jon and Sansa would get worse in Season 7, but it sucks to watch Littlefinger manipulating Sansa again. I really hope there is a twist and she is the one playing Littlefinger.
Either way I hope there is something more interesting going on in the North. Bran and Arya could introduce more interesting dynamics.
Sophie…lol. Drunk chicks are always funny.
If there is to be Jon/Sansa tension what was the set up for it? Because they argued in a tent? Because LF asked her who the North should rally behind? The final episode featured Sansa apologizing for not telling Jon, Sansa telling Jon to take the Lord’s Chamber, Jon kissing her on the forehead saying they need to trust each other and Sansa happy and smiling for Jon when named KITN.
I was shocked when I saw the post episode 10 video of the cast and Benioff hinting at it. It came right out of left field. I’d be very disappointed if the “foreshadowing” and set up for this tension was simply in Sophie Turner and their comments post season 6. That’s not the way you set a plot or story up. And certainly not with a 7 episode season and march towards the series finale.
Don’t worry guys. Sophie is just a bit drunk, that’s all.
orange,
Apparently Sansa’s smile to Jon in the KitN scene was an act? I just saw an video on twitter with Sophie Turner saying that Sansa thought she was on top until they started chanting king in the north. Next thing you know Sophie Turner will come out saying some BS to undo what we saw on that stark reunion scene too.
SO GLAD Sapochnik will be coming back!!! Wish it was for 7 🙂
I agree that the Sansa and Jon idea is not a good one. For so so many reasons.
Jack Bauer 24,
I appreciate Sophie’s determination to stand up for other women on twitter etc.
I’m saying this nice thing about her because I actually want to hit something every time I hear her talk about Sansa and Jon as characters.
The fact that no one has dissuaded her–that everyone is going along with the Jon Snow is stupid but Sansa…SANSA is the smart one? Drives me crazy.
Yes, she’s been horribly abused and I won’t disagree with that. Yes she’s still standing and that totally counts for something. She has a lot of potential and resilience.
She had a great moment with Brienne and a great moment of strength with LF in the old brothel but smart as a whole?
She is still a little easily swayed and little entitled, still a lot impulsive and still not seeing the bigger picture. (Also other people’s beliefs still rule her-instead of her making her own decisions. ie she mistrusts Davos because Brienne does, mistrusts Jon because LF says “Half brother”)
Which doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate her character-but that is how she’s been portrayed for 6 years.
In season 1 she started with an unnecessary lie about her sibling to get what she wanted (Joffrey’s love) that caused the death of a direwolf and led to season 6…where she lied unnecessarily to a sibling and caused the death of more people than not to get what she wanted (Winterfell/Ramsay’s death.)
Both of these lies weren’t clever game manipulations-they were purely emotional for the purpose of self preservation.
As far as Sophie, I think someone has lied to her. And yes, maybe because they don’t want to bother with nuance ie Sansa thinks she’s smarter but she doesn’t understand what he’s been through etc But still.
And FYI if they decide to dumb Jon down or weaken his character to make this accurate? Well I won’t riot but I’ll be very very cross!
Clob,
Didn’t he question Iwan first and then skip over him as he made he way down the table?
Love these panels. They all seem so lovely. It would be a fun event to attend.
If they need snow now, they should go to the southern hemisphere.
Jack Bauer 24,
You seem very aggravated by her opinion differing from yours.
Sansa and Cersei are a bit alike. They both want to be queen and think they deserve it, in part because they’re so smart. No wonder Sansa fell for Cersei’s “little dove” faux-mentorship in Season 1…to her father’s utter undoing. For what it’s worth, if Sansa were truly smart, she would have had a retort to LF’s lines about everything he’s done having been based on whether it advanced the picture of him on the Iron Throne with her at his side. Sansa merely had to say, “Oh yes? And how did selling me to Bastard Bolton and his butcher father advance that picture?” But of course, she didn’t have the wit. She never does. What a milksop.
I have no seen any evidence that Sansa is smart, not in the books and certainly not in the show
Re: the KITN scene, that’s not new. You can see the smile start to falter as soon as it becomes clear Lyanna is talking about Jon.
Nathalie is a very lovely young woman.
Masie not showing up proves the rivalry between Sophie. 🙂
These panels are not very good. They have lacked for quite some time, and I think this one might be the worst. This offered what? The drinking is foolish. Is it supposed to be funny that they’re up there tipsy (at a minimum)?
“To have on-screen sex with Kit Harington/Jon Snow, or to not…” Well hot damn. Now THAT is a question I wish pertained to ME to mull over (Shit, who am I kidding. No “mulling over” would be necessary). My only requirement would be that he would have to be dressed in his fancy Stark gear complete with man bun, versus those icky skinny jeans that Kit seems to love wearing. Kinda ruins the dream for me.
In any case, it’s still sinking in that we’re now officially entering GoT end-game territory. Screw terrors – my nights are soon to be dark and full of crying like a pathetic bitch.
As someone who waited there all night to get in. I was really disappointed it was a drunk mess! I’m sorry but to show up to a panel that drunk where your fans have waited all night is just disrespectful. I understand stage fright I haven taken 1 shot before performances but to be that drunk was just rude. As a huge book and show fan I was very disappointed!!!!!! I kept trying to pretend it was just me and maybe I just got my hopes up but when my boyfriend afterwards who really had no hopes because he is just casual fan says to me wow that was bad and really disrespectful to the fans to show up that drunk than I know I am not over reacting. I tried making excuses to him but ge was right and I was feeling the same way. Sorry to rant just was very turned off by that.
Ravyn,
One of the rare females who wouldn’t tbh 🙂
Jack Bauer 24,
Jon being a great warrior doesn’t mean he’ll be a great King. Look at Robert. A King or Queen needs to be cunning. Not just wise and honorable.
orange,
I think you have only yourself to blame for not noticing the setup. As soon as I saw the Jon KITN scene, my reaction was – Jon failed to even acknowledge Sansa, the fact that she was the one who started the rebellion and the one who pushed him to effect it the entire season. That’s a very common problem for women in movements, and pretty low on Jon’s part that he let himself be involved in the misogyny. (He actually, in a way, took credit for both Sansa’s and Arya’s actions, what with the ‘avenging the Red Wedding’ line.)
Sansa, whose whole story is about gaining independence and control over her own life, has now received a confirmation that, just as she expected, despite his own words just a few scenes earlier, she can’t trust Jon. That’s pretty clear setup for the tension next season. This situation must be clarified.
Kit does absolutely nothing for me. All I can see is a very short boy when I look at him. He’s really improved as Jon Snow, but Jon is totally meh for me. Fine, I’d probably screw him if given the opportunity but I’d keep my expectations low 😉
Nathalie is gorgeous. However, she’s supposed to be on the Women who Kick Ass panel and that isn’t working for me at all. Missandei is a nice side character, but she most certainly does not kick ass. She stands there politely while Dany or Grey Worm kicks ass.
Lady_Vicious1984,
Yeppers, KH in his normal clothes=cute. In medieval style clothing with the hair just right=sexy af. As for GOT nearing an end and what will we ever dooo after? I know right? But hey I’m thinking that with the success of the show there will be copy cats coming out, and one of them might even be something we could sink our teeth into. Nothing can top it, but we will have to take what we can get.
Yaga,
pretty low on Jon’s part that he let himself be involved in the misogyny. (He actually, in a way, took credit for both Sansa’s and Arya’s actions, what with the ‘avenging the Red Wedding’ line.)
Umm, Jon did not say that line so how was he taking credit? It was Manderly. And they were all caught up in a moment. I think the crowd’s declaration threw him for a loop. but Anyways, how are they going to have their epic KitN moment if Jon cut in to say “Wait a sec it was Sansa that helped blah blah.” Besides, everyone should know what took place, why would he have to remind them? That would be awkward the way the scene was set up. But I do remember wishing there had been more dialogue during that scene, before the declarations. However, it would be in character for Jon to, in the moments following the scene, like frst ep next season, to approach Sansa and tell her he wants her to be lady of Winterfell and help him rule.
HotPinkLipstick,
Fine, I’d probably screw him if given the opportunity but I’d keep my expectations low
Lol! Well….if you would still screw him then you have to admit you see him as a bit more than “just a very short boy.” Unless of course, you’d give it up for just any short boy. Which, er, no judgement 🙂
Shortness and baby-face are generally a total and complete turn off to me. I’d give in to the sex based only on his abs.
And I firmly believe if having a good roll in the hay whenever I’m in the mood and the opportunity arises. Why should I ever deny myself? 😉
Jack Bauer 24,
Remember how in the books Sansa thinks the hound kissed her even though it never happened?That’s Sophie answering anything about Sansa or Jon lol
El-Bobbie,
Yeah but what kind of intellect knowledge or experience does Sansa have?At least he cares for other people other than himself lol
Someone help me because I don’t have data to watch the videos.What did David and Dan say in general?And did they make any comments when Sophie was talking?
Jenny,
Here is a panel recap.
http://tvline.com/2016/07/22/game-of-thrones-season-7-spoilers-comic-con-panel-recap-2016/
I don’t think we saw D&D while Sophie spoke about Sansa’s thoughts on Jon’s leadership. And normally, they just sit there with blank face and sip their water or crack jokes to each other.
Sansa “Fredo” Stark
HotPinkLipstick,
Give me Rory, Iain, or Tom anyday.
No really…..ANY DAY. ?
It was a pretty mediocre panel. I think my favourite was Season 4’s, by far.
I tune out when Sophie talks now, it’s easier on the blood pressure.
I was happy to see Faye and Iwan! Liam, John and Conleth are always fun….really missing Natalie, Gwen, Nikolaj, Carice and Maisie this year. Sigh.
“Representing the non-Emmy-nominated cast of Game of Thrones this year….”
HotPinkLipstick,
Aye, a girl must take advantage of life’s pleasures if and when presented 🙂 I’m married but if I were not, and he were a regular bloke I met somewhere his height would not even come into play as I’m only just shy of 5’4. The clincher would be has to have some facial hair cause without yeah he looks too young.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiPtxys-Ojw
I believe this one is complete
Pigeon,
I haven’t caught the panel yet but in the still I wondered who is the blonde chick cause she does not look like nyone from the castm then ssaw it was Faye Marsay, she looksso different! I’m surprised to see her there. Peter, eh some people miss him but usually he doesn’t have much to add to these things no?
Pigeon,
…Oh good. I get Nikolaj all to myself!
HotPinkLipstick,
Thanks I only care about what David and Dan says because at this point the cast doesn’t even have the scripts.And even then I take it with grains of salt lol
What’s with all the Sophie hate again? Kit said the same thing on the behind the scenes episode. It’s not like they didn’t get directed to play this as a fading smile in the last scene….
Also i understand Jon is the ultimate bestest hero of all the heroes,but they have a story to say. Not every character has to find him genious, gorgeous and worship him in the series.
Sansa has a character of her own, she has her own story to tell… she can’t sit there and play Jon’s sidekick faithfull wife, who makes clothes for him while he goes to war.. some of the expectations are weird.
I was reading the comments and had to stop because I simply cannot believe what I am reading. I have a few friends who have been in television shows with passionate fan bases such as this one so I must chime in here.
First of all, Sophie is not Sansa. Kit is not Jon. Sophie and Kit are friends. Sophie making comments about a fictional character she plays in a fictional show are not meant to be taken so seriously. Her comments about another fictional character within the same story are not meant to be taken so seriously.
The comment about Sansa not thinking Jon is a capable leader is one version of how she has answered this question. If you read other statements she’s made, she has said the opposite and that Littlefinger will have no effect on her — that family is a stronger bond.
This is her job. Each answer she gives that is different from the last is from the perspective of an actor who sees the possibilities of what she will get to “play” next. She is not personally determined for Sansa to end up on the throne. She does not care if Jon is Lord of Winterfell. Because she is an actress telling a story. It is not real. It’s all in jest. It’s fun to speculate and say these things in jest.
It must be understood that the fans that visit this site are in the minority for fans of the show. We love the show and/or books so we follow every last thing about it. This means that we tend to take everything very seriously because we are passionate about it. However, Sophie is not us. She is an actress who is clearly grateful for the job she has in a show that’s as successful as it is. She gives interviews when she doesn’t have to do so. And she answers questions in an off the cuff manner with a spirit of humor because that is her personality. Moral of the story: it’s not that serious.
While I want to see Sansa grow wise, I will not appreciate her betray Jon. I don’t expect her to be just a sidekick, but not also a traitor to her family and people. If she becomes the new Olly, she won’t be missed.
I think Faye is quite stunning. Kind of like when you see Hannah Murray outside of the Gilly character, and go woah! 🙂
Peter has missed more ComiCons than he’s been at, I think. He has a great sense of humour but I kind of feel like they aren’t really his thing?
While I find him more and more attractive as time goes by (and I have a definite thing for fucked up noses), yes, he is clearly meant for you! 😉
Pigeon,
I know, Hannah is adorable. First time I saw her, did not recognize as Gilly either. And who’d have thought the waif is anything more than plain Jane! Plus even the matronly septa Unella outside of show is very pretty. It’s amazing what they can do on a set to alter perceptions.
Mag,
Thanks for posting that!
Mag,
Lol. Interesting that Weiss actually claps and nods his head in agreement after Sophie’s controversial comments.
eh… do you even know what Sophie has said at all? lol she basically called Jon dumb and went on about how superior sansa is over him. I get that Sophie Turner really likes to put a halo on sansa’s head, but does she really needed to bash another character to make hers look good? have anyone else in the GoT cast has ever done this kinda thing with another character on their own damn show? would Kit Harington go on and on in interviews mentioning how much of a better ruler Jon snow is than sansa? I don’t think so. I think this is quite silly of Sophie and get why even many of her fans are upset by her comments of GoT’s panel. She’s basically confirming that Sansa will completely undo all of her character development over the past six seasons by turning on her brother over something she gave up a long time ago (being queen and stuff like that) Also, it’s not hating to disagree with someone’s opinion, especially when we know for a fact that this opinion is inaccurate. People are allowed to react/speculate negatively about something they don’t agree with, you know?
By the looks of this, I won’t be watching the clip. All I gather is that Sophie needs to stick to talking about her character and stop putting down other characters in order to prop hers up (especially fan favorites). Wasn’t she upset at one point that fans liked Arya more than Sansa? And just when Sansa was finally starting to become more liked by fans….
I was looking forward to Sansa finally playing LF, but if she’s truly going to play against her family instead she is a goner. A character I won’t miss.
El-Bobbie,
At least he grew up in the North, knows people there and they respect him. He’s a great warrior, honorable, loyal and good heart. Especially in the show it doesn’t look like he should be there with Daeny or alone on the Iron Throne. South is entirely different and Jon should stay away from it because Ned or Robb proved Northerners should be in he North and Jon is very much a Northerner. Even tho with his heritage.
But Sansa doesn’t have a clue how to run Winterfell either, white walkers threat which is more important than any politics. They would make good combo actually to support each other but then it would be boring storyline. So conflict between could spice up things until walkers come and then who knows. I guess their relationship won’ be that friendly at the end of this feud unless they dumb down his character but thy already kinda did that with him.
But wanted to ask you one thing. Let’s say Sansa will be the winner or take control of the North whther it has something to do with his parentage or something else. Then why would Daeny wanted to marry him? Because he’s a Targyryen which is not easy to prove. Unless he’s got control over North, she has nothing to gain from him and this alliance.
Ravyn,
It was. Neither of them is each other’s type. Jon likes different kind of women and same with Sansa. Hound is coming North with Brotherhood.
Funny you mentioned this. This what they’re doing with Daeny. Everybody loves her, worships her and find her genious and perfect. When you look around everybody seems to be falling in love with her and all that.
Geralt of Rivia,
Because that’s what happens in the books. She has a handful of people heading her way to help her, she has people calling her the most beautiful woman in the world, people declaring their love for her. It’s the same in the books, D&D didn’t make it up.
With regards to Jon, it’s fine and great that he’s respected and honorable and a great warrior, but that’s not enough. Those exact qualities got Ned killed. Jon is going to have to learn to PLAY the game. He’s going to have to use cunning and manipulation to outsmart those around him in order to survive the game of thrones. Now that he’s a king, he’s going to be facing far more danger.
I’m glad they don’t care what nerds on internet think. Conflict between Sansa and Jon is in the spirit of this story. But I’m sure it won’t be for long. Sansa will turn at Lf at some point and save her familyfrom him. There is no way this won’t happen in the books.
El-Bobbie,
He actually claps and nods to everything.He nods when Liam says the night king will sit the thrones in the end with a cigar lol or when Kristian says Brienne will be on the throne.It has nothing to do with what will happen on the show
Finally watched the whole panel.Pretty boring as always lol but Faye was so lovely I hadn’t realized before.And I love the way Nathalie talks she is so articulate and has such a pleasant voice.Only news is that filming is done in February.John should have talked more he is always so funny
Yes i know what she said, and i actually watched the whole video.
1st don’t personalize the character on the actor. I think it’s clear for example that when the cast call Cersei crazy bitch they don’t mean Lena, and Kit isn’t Jon Snow.
2nd She didn’t call him dumb, he said he lacks the leadership skills while he is all Ned and makes fair decisions e.t.c I love Jon , but when in the story did he actually prove himself as leader ? Jon is a fighter, a small Ned…
She never said she will turn her brother over, she said in her opinion Sansa will try to lead because she thinks she knows more and she is better leader, and people don’t give her a chance. Sansa’s development is to become a person of her own and not a follower anymore… she has been following people around for years. Why she had to follow Jon now? She never gave up being a queen, she was prepared for that since she was a small kid. Jon will give his own battles and she will give her own against the people who mistreated her. Jon and Sansa are totally diffferent, he has to fight the big war and win… as he was promised.
Sansa,Cersei and Dany will fight for their small wars.
Sansa in the books is under LF, waiting for the war of the 5 queens…. do you want to skip this part in the show?
And he does PLAY the game in the books. He’s far smarter than Ned ever was. Jon actually interferes in the affairs of the realms plenty of times in ADwD. If he was Ned, that would have not happened because of strict adherence to the oaths. He asks Stannis not to kill Mance (A deserter of the NW) but instead use Mance’s knowledge. Would Ned have done that? He marries Alys to the Thenns, unites a Northern house to the Wildlings and sends word to Stannis about Karstark treachery. He invites mountain clans to the marriage and convinces them of his strategy in letting the Wildlings in. He takes child hostages to ensure good behavior from the wildlings. He sends Mance on a stealth mission to rescue Arya. He threatens Gilly to leave her baby behind. He has made deals with the Iron Bank despite the Watch having a debt. He coaches Stannis on how to tackle the North.
Sure, none of this is on the show. Jon’s entire ADwD arc, written by GRRM to showcase Jon’s growth as a leader, was ignored on the show. But how is Sansa any better than Jon both in the books and on the show? Has she PLAYED the game against anyone on the show?
Maggie,
I’m sorry but when has she shown she is a better leader or any kind of leader?At least Jon cares about more people than himself.Like she might think Jon is not the best but she has done literally nothing to prove that she is better him or equiped to lead any kind of people
ygritte,
Well, in my opinion a true leader should and would take the time to thank his or her allies in his or her moment of triumph. You know, how there are elections and the winner takes the time to thank their voters? Jon should have shushed the yells and, yes, take the time to thank Sansa. Out there in the open. Not in private, which means nothing.
That he didn’t made me, personally, feel bad on her account and showed me that Jon has really a long way to go as a leader.
Nb., all I wanted to demonstrate in my post was that – if someone claims that the foundations for the conflict were not laid in the show, they simply haven’t been paying enough attention. Because it is all there. People can’t expect Sansa to simply fall behind Jon because he’s the Gary Stu designated hero of the story.
RG,
All of this. Couldn’t agree more.
I feel this comic Con is just a way for the people connected with the show to have some fun with the audience and they do not really take any of this seriously. We should also stop taking what they say very seriously too.
Flayed Potatoes,
At the You tube comments many remarking how Sophie was under the influence and pointed to where she even sneaked a shot while Conleth shook his head at her. So, perhaps if sober she might have worded things differently? Personally I would not want to partake in anything that would lower my inhibitions before speaking in front of potentially millions of people, but that’s just me lol.
SerNoName,
Sansa was the one who conceived of the Northern rebellion, motivated Jon to join and delivered the Stark name as well as the crucial armies. The least she deserved was a public display of gratitude at the moment Jon was elected. That he chose to take her loyalty as granted, without even acknowledging her sacrifice and input – once again, PUBLICALLY, private thanks mean nothing – shows that Jon is a weak leader and has much to learn. Exactly as Sophie described.
ghost of winterfell,
Yeah that’s true they really don’t.Tbh I have found that very rarely do interviews give any real insight about what happens in the show.It’s all so generic and to #hype lol.Not to mention D&D and the others were drunk in this lol
after seeing the panel. Sophie just seems to be super salty…
Yaga,
Are you trolling or what?All the people in that room know how the battle went.They chose Jon because they wanted to.He is not gonna stop the chant to say that yeah my sister who withheld an army from me even though I begged for more men twenty times deserves credit too.He thanked her personally and everybody there knows why the Knights of the vale came.Do you remember Robb coronation there is no stopping the chanting when it starts.It’s not Jon fault that he was chosen he didn’t ask for it.He didn’t even take it for granted he looked at her and she was smiling up at him so he assumed she was fine with it
Sorry, but why exactly should he thank Sansa in front of everyone? Would that not be awkward? Like, imagine Jon saying to Sansa – Hey, I know you kept important information about a large Vale army to yourself so that you get the credit of the victory and a lot of Northern men died unnecessarily and all that, but thanks for sending LF a letter! Jon may shrug off her lies with a kiss on the forehead, but you think the North would do the same?
yeah but she just blankly says that jon is dumb. LIke she just seems salty. And btw she always say that littlefinger should rule westereos, that just tells you her views on the show.
Flayed Potatoes,
Don’t take her serious, Sophie is drunk there…. LOL.
mau,
This, sometimes I think only ”our” fandom is this bad but then I remember how the LOTR fandom was when the movies were being made, you could take a comment from then, switch LOTR to GOT and it would fit perfectly on westeros.org.
And you said it was the same with the Harry Potter fandom. Which is extremely amusing, because as someone who hasn’t read the books, all I heard of the last couple of movies is praise, so it’s amusing to hear the hardcore fandom also hated them..
Drunk? Under the influence? A few swigs of vodka doesn’t make a girl drunk, especially if she’s from England. She’s just blathering and having some fun with her mates.
Someone asked about the legal age in the homeland – it’s 5 years at home, 16 with parental supervision in a pub/bar…..plenty of years to practice.
So Sansa didn’t tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale because she wanted all the credit. She willingly put Jon and his men, who were putting their lives on the line for her, in greater danger because she wanted to look cool sitting on her horse when her borrowed army attacks. Yeah Sophie does a great job at making Sansa even more unlikeable.
Just when I thought I couldn’t like Sophie any better. She gets it.
I mean, come on, Jon was as good as dead. He walked straight into Ramsay’s trap precisely because of his honor and noble Starkness (when Sansa explicitly warned him against it). So how isn’t Sophie right in thinking he isn’t fit to rule?
This is how the game is (said to be) played in the world of GoT; It’s not about being good and righteous and things just magically working out for you – only cheap simplistic fairy tales work that way. It’s about duplicity and making tough choices that compromise your perceived morality.
However, was bad writing a big part of Sansa’s decision to withold info from Jon? Hell yes – but then the pandering Battle of the Bastards doesn’t really offer much in terms of writing anyway. “Whatever, Jon. Over it.”
Jenny,
SerNoName,
Most good leaders somehow manage to thank their key allies during their acceptance speeches. That’s like Leadership 101 – don’t alienate your key allies, people. And it’s especially important in this case because Sansa’s whole story so far was about self-determination and empowerment. By not acknowledging her, openly, Jon is basically confirming the seeds LF has planted in her – that he probably plans to relegate Sansa back to being a second-class person. Maybe marry her off like a pawn, like her father and Littlefinger.
It’s not even about Sansa. It’s about Jon’s leadership skills, which are clearly lacking *as evidenced when he abandons his ally in his moment of victory*.
And he could have begun by thanking her for STARTING the whole thing, for one!
Jon is a good fighter. But, just like Dany, he’s not a good politician, not a good leader. Because what’s happened here is actually the same thing that happened in Season 5, isn’t it? He didn’t manage to get the Watch on board with his program.
Yaga,
I’m sorry but I don’t see what are you saying at all.He is not going to stop the chanting to thank his sister when he did that before,the room clearly knows what happened and he saw that she was fine with it because she was smiling at him.He has treated Sansa very well from the moment they met and anything she has against him is petty to the maximum.Jon or Dany might not be the best leaders or politicians yet but Sansa is not any kind of leader.At least they care about more people than themselves strictly and that’s what I would want in my leader and not a littlefinger mini me
Just when I thought I couldn’t like Sophie any better. She gets it.
I mean, come on, Jon was as good as dead. He walked straight into Ramsay’s trap precisely because of his honor and noble Starkness (when Sansa explicitly warned him against it). So how isn’t Sophie right in thinking he isn’t fit to rule?
This is how the game is (said to be) played in the world of GoT; It’s not about being good and righteous and things just magically working out for you – only cheap simplistic fairy tales work that way. It’s about duplicity and making tough choices that compromise your perceived morality.
However, was bad writing a big part of Sansa’s decision to withold info from Jon? Hell yes – but then the pandering Battle of the Bastards doesn’t really offer much in terms of writing anyway. “Whatever, Jon. Over it.”
Sansa alienated her key allies by not informing them about the Vale. It’s not just about Jon, but also about the Northern houses and Wildlings who joined them. Look at how Lyanna Mormont (their ally) declared for Jon as KITN.
Jon and Dany are better leaders than Sansa. Their entire storylines revolve around learning how to lead and they at least care about the people they want to lead (instead of wanting to play mind games with them, or sacrifice lives because they want to get all the credit). Nothing Sansa has done has proven that she is a leader.
Jon has to learn how to be a good leader an trust his advisor.
I hope Sansa understands that and helps him, don´t want to see Stark betraying each other. Although that would be so Martin
Yaga,
You say Jon should have acknowledged Sansa’s sacrifice. How exactly was “conceiving of the Northern rebellion, motivating Jon to join, and delivering the Stark name” a “sacrifice?” As for delivering the crucial armies, just which armies were those? The knights of the Vale? She wrote. a. letter. to one person. And that army didn’t actually fight. They rammed through the remnants of those left over after the cavalry was already depleted. She sat on a horse. I’m trying to understand what true sacrifice she made.
Icekhione,
Seems to be the case yes. And all those fans who were performing mental gymnastics to come up with a shrewd but unselfish reason why Sansa would keep that information from Jon and calling us haters that we could even think she was being underhanded… neener neener. Lol. All in fun tho…
Sansa’s Stark name proved to be of zero value when it came to getting people to fight. As for delivering crucial armies, the real question should be why did Sansa hide the information of that crucial army. Jon didn’t he was open about the army he had unlike Sansa. She essentially risked Jon’s and his army’s lives in a fight which she pushed him to. So how does this prove Sansa is the better leader or ruler?
As for Sansa being denied credit, every northern Lord/lady in that room knew Sansa was the one who got the Vale army and inspite of that, they chose Jon. Sorry she wasn’t robbed of anything here.
Except for the February end production date was hoping some indication of what season 7 would be , even if a vague generality. D&D have hinted at a bigger production in 7 episodes than even in S6.
Also , if HBO, might be considering a spin off , since D&D , recently, did not turn down that idea , as they have in the past. I could see them being only involved as producers not as hands on, if that’s the case.
Jenny, Flayed Potatoes,
Buy I never said that Sansa should be a leader? She’s clearly a backroom deals-making kind of person. A networker, which is a function essential in politics. I only said that *Jon* not acknowledging *her* makes him be a bad leader. Which I fully stand by.
And the part that makes Jon’s ignorant mistake so egregious is exactly that he makes it precisely the next scene after he tells Sansa that they should trust each other because they have many enemies. It’s really signalling to her that he’s treating her differently in private than in public. It tells her, ‘I’ll pretend that you’re my equal in private, but I don’t care enough about you to go against the conservatives for your sake in public’. That’s… a very familiar story, for disadvantaged people in liberation movements.
I hope that the situation will be clarified next season, obviously.
Yaga,
Do you even know who Jon Snow is? What have you seen thus far in his character that would suggest to you he’d even think this way?? He’s not even remotely sneaky, underhanded, or selfish.
Yaga,
But tell them what?Something they already know?She is sitting right there and the room knows what she did.And Jon was probably thinking ice zombies and thank god we are united not I should give credit to my sister which I already did and she seems fine because she is smiling and risk alienating people they just got on their side.Not to mention how dramatic television works and no way they would stop the chanting just to say Sansa deserves credit too for being littlefinger’ pawn lol
Please explain to us all what sansa’s loyalty and sacrifice are you talking about? Do I have to remind you that Jon was about to take off south to get warm and actually get a damn break after he got killed and came back to life when Sansa showed up at Castle Black urging him to avenge her honor and give her home and revenge on ramsay? Should I also note that Jon didn’t have to bother with all that and yet he did it anyway showing to her how LOYAL he is? and how exactly has sansa done with his loyalty? oh yeah, she lied to him and kept crucial information from him God knows why. Also about that sacrifice you’ve mentioned what is that about? IIRC the person doing all the dirty work getting his hand and whole body covered in crap and blood was Jon snow, while all sansa had to do was write a letter to littlefinger and then show up towards the end of the battle mounted on her pretty white horse watching the whole destruction she could’ve prevented from afar. It was Jon who put his ass on the line and almost got killed trying to save house stark and his baby brother, not sansa.
You know, BOTH of them deserve credit at end. And the northern lords probably know that the knights of the vale come for sansa, since they have no connection whatsoever with Jon. I find it amaze that sophie turner and her/sansa fans actually think that sansa deserves a medal nd the acclaim in the world for asking for littlefinger’s help. She’s not a mastermind and she’s still got played by her master since she ended up doing what he wanted her to and what was stablished way back in season 5. She didn’t got the acclaim probably because she lied and it was a really bad move on her part. She has no understanding on how the north really works, so she thought that she should be declared Queen even know she has done nothing for the north and doesn’t even care about its people in the first place.
ygritte,
He’s not selfish. But you can’t deny that he can be pretty ignorant at times. He failed to notice the magnitude of the adversarial sentiments in the Watch in Season 5. He ignored Sansa’s warning and let Ramsay play him like a fiddle this season as well. It’s not out of his character that it would simply not come to his mind that Sansa needed his support – his *public* support – as well.
I mean, it’s pretty funny that exactly the same thing is happening in this thread as well. The comments about Sansa ‘not being a (true) Stark’ and whatnot. Even after she was the primary motivator in the retaking of Winterfell.
Once again, I absolutely hope that the situation will be clarified next season (after some drama, obviously). But Sansa has all the right to be disappointed about Jon’s omission right now – and Sophie is absolutely correct that this reflects badly on Jon as a leader.
But then again, I’m not sure why y’all should be so defensive about this? There are two seasons still to go, it’s obvious there should still be room for growth for all the characters involved – that neither Jon nor Sansa are already perfect. I mean, if they were, there would be no drama to fill the next season. Jon *will* be probably given an opportunity to correct his mistake in the next season. Thus improving as a leader. It’s a process ?.
Yeah, that’s the danger of stoking this tension Sophie. Jon Snow/Kit has really come into his own from season 3 onward to become a character that it’s difficult to imagine anyone disliking or rooting against. And Jon didn’t really do anything wrong to Sansa in season 6. So conflict between them will most likely result in people disliking Sansa again…
taim,
Sophie has been salty for years now. She has thrown shade at Dany and Arya a lot.
What she has been saying over the years shows her lack of understanding of her character and those of her co-stars’. She can say whatever she wants, doesn’t make her right.
Yaga,
Jon might have things to learn and he is not perfect in any way whatsoever but they have nothing to do with Sansa.He has done nothing wrong regarding her and her reasons for being jealous are the the most petty things I have ever heard.Her advice was so vague my grandma could have given it.Basically he should have let his little brother who was his whole motivation for entering the battle die without trying to save him??It’s easy to talk in a tent but I wonder what Sansa would have done if she was there and saw her frightened brother come towards her.And I wonder how well it would have gone with the northerns to see a bastard let his trueborn brother die in front of him.
A Man Grown,
yes, he was nothing but kind, appreciative and protective of her. He risked himself for her even knowing what death really is, after having died and been resurrected. He wanted to rest but decided to put himself on the line to help her. It really puts her in a bad light. But she’s been a shady ‘Stark’ right from the beginning so it comes as no surprise. She’s just getting worse.
WTF are you talking about? When Sophie spoke bad about Arya or Dany?
She is not salty or anything…she has been saying for years that she wants LF on the Iron throne and that Jaime is her fav character. She likes that type of characters and not your archetypal hero, isn’t this her right?
Relax people, just because she isn’t doing your fan service for a fictional story you have been throwing shade to an actual person.
Jenny,
She would have done nothing to try to save her little brother on that battlefield, she would just wave at him while he was running for his life, she’s callous and cowardly like that. I mean, that smirk she had despite her brother having just been killed says a lot.
I really don’t understand people being so invested in characters from a story that they don’t recognise the tropes involved. Eurrgh, reminds me of the people who genuinely hated Severus Snape. When most people could see from a mile away that he was exactly the ‘shady guy working for the good guys’ archetype. The same Sansa, incidentally, is right now. (Also Arya, wee vigilante-going-on-psycho, be still my heart.) Jon is obvs Harry Potter, bright of heart and dumb as a brick when it comes to certain matters.
All that said, disliking *Sansa* is one thing. But *Sophie* should be left alone.
After seeing the whole panel ..I have to say not much happened ..I miss first four seasons where we will get Lena Peter Emilia Kit Richard Michelle jason and Pedro and Maisie and GRRm himself..
Happy to see Nathalie and Faye here..
So all the talk is about sansa and Sophie ..just like I thought when they announced the panel last month..
So is sansa and sophie back to season one mode where she was disliked most.
Have to wonder what would have been fans response if she had the vale story like in the books and not raped by Ramsey ..
I expect something like this to happen in the books as well where she will come with vale and jon crowned KITN ..but I don’t think she will turn against jon fully just enough to kill LF…after all this starks we are speaking about ..
If you ask me personally iam really tired of all this news and interviews about north.. Let us have something different for a change with south peter Emilia Lena NcW or that qyburn actor. Something new please ..I wouldn’t even complain if north interviews where given by KIt or tormund actor or carrice …but iam really tired of liam and Sophie ..
Or please ask Richard and Michelle about the last season and how they feel now winter fell is taken back and jon as KITn..that should be interesting
I personally never disliked her but Sansa on the first season was treated like a secondary character.. in the production tease for season 7 she is getting hyped as much as Cersei and even more than Dany. So she will have much screentime next season as well.
I think the best panel was in 2014 with GRRM,Kit, NCW, Sophie,Maisie,Natalie, Pedro, Gwen,Rose and D &D… i think till today this is the one that got the most attention
The GoT panel this year was okay but meh. TWD panel was more fun.
eh… well, she has always complained about the sansa hate and the fact that she isn’t a fan favorite in both books and show. She has also said that when went out with maisie fans often approached Maisie to tell her how much they love Arya and then turn to Sophie and tell her how much they hate sansa and that used to really upset her, until recent seasons where sansa became a lot more of a sympathetic character and people started to root for her. She has also thrown several shades on Dany and her dragons lol there’s one particular interview where she was asked who was the first person on her list and she immediately answered “dany and her dragons”. There’s also a video where she was openly hating on Dany and how she can’t sit on the throne because she already has too much, she got (again) dragons and she “can’t have it all”. And the list goes on… so yeah, she comes off as salty whenever she’s talking about fan favorites. She’s totally against the jonsa thing because is gross and is incest and yet, months ago she claimed that she wanted for sansa to have a love incest scene with arya lol so there you have it. People aren’t making that up, it’ll show up on google if you cared to looked if there’s any truth in this sophie’s behavior before ranting.
Maggie,
Actually, just prior to season 6 being aired, she said she wanted Arya on IT, and Arya wants Sophie on it.
I do think she gets ridiculous hate sometimes. She’s always been a divisive character in both the books and the show.
Maggie,
Well I would say that’s been the case for season 5 and 6 as well..
Which is why I was wondering what would have happened if she had gotten the vale story from books..she would have been still secondary with no interactions with roose ramsey theon jon and davos and also brienne..
Yeah thats my favorite as well.pedro rocked that year. .
Maggie,
Was that the one where everyone got excited about the Dorne casting? Oh, us sweet summer children…
dragonbringer,
Yes I agree.I knew it would go this way the moment they announced the panel but I still can’t keep my mouth shut lol.Yeah change the actors.Interview Peter or Lena or Emilia or Maisie or anybody lol
Sophie Turner has to learn how to advocate for her own character without putting down other characters, especially fan favourites. You don’t see other major GOT actors dismissing or throwing shade at their co-stars’ characters in order to build up their own. She’s like the only one who has been doing that for a while now. She not only does that from Sansa’s POV but also her own. That makes her a bad sport. She needs polishing when it comes to interviews.
I 100% agree with you on that. I don’t even mind much about Liam as much as I do by Sophie’s comments. But I’d really like to hear it Kit’s insights on HIS character rather than whatever Sophie has to say about him. Thankfully whenever Kit come out to talk about that finale he won’t waste much of his/our time going on about why Jon is more fit to rule and how much smarter he is than sansa, since Jon has his own arc going on and doesn’t really depend on the survival of main characters to stay on the show, just saying.
Jenny,
Please do make it happen…but I don’t think its going to change… Similar to is jon dead last year. This year is going to be about the strak feud ..
Very sad indeed…
But at the same time we do get some small things like that sesson 7 video and bloopers ..how cool was those two videos..
A Man Grown,
The very same one..
My god how hyped people were to see Alexander siddig and how people started doing crackpot theories that trystane is argon because he has same hair as KiT
jdtargstark,
I agree with you about kit ..it was such a nice feeling to see him in inside the episodes of 9 and 10 ..it felt he was absent for so long from that..
Regarding liam its not the same as its with Sophie…but the man has been hyping since January ..give him some rest ..let he take on the mantle again next February or march..
One person I miss most in the interviews is Ian glein ..sad we don’t get enough of him nowadays..
I feed bad for conelth hill..he’s got such a good hair and he has to shave that for every year ..
Does he get to do any other roles in past 6 years while still playing varys…i ask this beacuse i hope he didnt lose many projects just because of his less hair ..
Icekhione,
…I don’t get why she would personally, as you say from her own POV, talk negatively about her co-star’s character when he’s not by any means an antagonist in the story? OK it does seem like Sophie is a person who enjoys villains and more complicated or grey characters in her drama and that’s fine. But she needs to learn to be a bit more tactful seeing as he is a fan favorite. It would be like Emilia being on the panel and acting like Dany is so much better than Tyrion. It’s just tacky or something. It would have been nice if Kit were there to give his POV. 2 years in a row he missed.
I find it funny how Sansa says it’s foolish to trust Littlefinger but she keeps being played by him at every opportunity and now is set to side with him over her family. He is her puppet master and she doesn’t even realise that.
dragonbringer,
Me too.Like we can go one year without #controversial debates lol.Yeah the bloopers one especially was so funny.I wish it was longer.
Jenny,
They always release so little ..
The bloopers should be released for every episode like inside the episode segment or like game revealed videos every couple of episodes..
This would haven been a better palce to ask benioff and Weiss about what sibel was doing with peter and conleth
Do They seriously went this far to troll the fans and websites.
dragonbringer,
I can’t believe I am saying this, but I am sick of these interviews relating to the north too. I would love to hear about the other storylines now.
I could really do without any more Sophie interviews.
Or at least I wouldn’t mind hearing Kit rather than Sophie analyze Jon.
El-Bobbie,
The Long Night and WWs are coming, there’s no room for politicking. Sansa has nothing to contribute to the survivial efforts against the LN and WWs. We’re dealing with the endgame now, she has no place in it. And she’s yet to show anything to consider her a good player/ruler.
D and D already dragged Jon this season, dumbing him down and putting his character/arc aside to prop up Sansa and her rape-revenge subplot. I hope they won’t continue with this. He is the endgame/top-tier/fan favourite character, she is second-tier at best, but they keep favouriting her at other characters’ expense, they need to stop. We only have like 13 episodes left, do they have to put us through the Stark soap opera?
Sean C.,
She’s a woman, she’s not allowed to have a different option then a man.
And yes, I think most of the hatred for Sophie is because she is female and has opinions. Gasp!!!!!
Pretty much this. I can appreciate the whole ‘Everyone is entitled to their opinion’ argument but overstepping that freedom sometimes gives it an unprofessional vibe. Its really, really rare in TV business actors taking a shot at other characters on camera. With Sophie, you can’t even brush it off as accidental because she does it ever so often.
Well, as usual, the panel was pretty much non-informative at all yet a tremendous lot of fun ! It may sound daft of me however I genuinely enjoy to see how well the actors seem to get along and the pleasure they take in goffing around together.
As for Sophie Turner’s “no f*ck given, it’s gangsta livin'” approach to public events, I confess I find it endlessly refreshing and hilarious. She is having a blast ^^
Littlefinger on the Iron Throne ? Many political science majors must have made an internal backflip in elation over that for Baelish is the embodiment of Machiavelli’s concept of “Prince”. While he is by all means a terrible person, he probably would be a quite remarkable King (infinitely better that 98.2% of the Westerosi kings we know about). It will very certainly not happen in ASOIAF or GOT but the idea is political science heaven.
As for Jon and Sansa… Well, that should keep the fandom busy for the upcoming months, shouldn’t it ? The moment Ms. Turner uttered the word “intellect”, the internet collectively clutched its pearls in recrimination. Let’s hug it out 🙂
To be fair, she did not say Jon was an idiot but that he did not have the intellect, the experience, etc. Sansa has… Which is, by definition, true. A tautological statement at best. They are very different individuals with dissimilar personalities, skills and life experiences which may make them more or less capable to embrace different positions or roles.
To imply that Sansa might have skills Jon lacks is not to be dismissive of the White Wolf’s abilities as a whole. It does not tarnish him for I do not think he was ever meant to be the perfect-est bloke ever : perfect leader, perfect ruler, perfect king, perfect friend, perfect brother, perfect father-material, perfect lover, perfect man bun advocate… That (and it, of course, is my very subjective take on it) would make him the single least interesting character ever to roam the pages of a novel or the screens of a TV. ^^
He is not ideal, in any way, shape or form : he often fails to notice his own good fortune, so convinced is he of his “underdog” status (his reminiscing over his outsider status at family feasts in front of Melisandre, who used to be a slave, was quite telling); he can have a bit of a sensitive ego about him (he immediately took offense when Sansa anticipated Ramsay was better at laying traps than him…) and the list goes on. And on.
He is a remarkable character but, by no stretch of the imagination I believe, could he be considered flawless.
Is he the man to lead the living against the “undead” ? Hell to the yes !
Is he a great leader in general ? It most certainly could seem like it.
Would he be a great king ? Hmm… No real evidence either way, I think. Time will tell.
However, the Northern lords made a choice : Jon is their ruler. Their sole ruler. The only celebrated victor of the Battle of the Bastards. The avenger of the Red Wedding. The son of Ned Stark…
Sansa is, to them, non-existent. It is their choice; a choice Jon, to the best of our understanding so far, validated in full, with no alteration. He is the KITN; she is the KITN’s little sis’. As such, Sansa’s dismay and feelings of frustration in regards to once again being relegated to the sidelines, a mere witness to history rather than one of its participants, does not seem unjustified to me. It has been set up.
One might obviously say that she has not done much, in regards to the victory. She only wrote one letter, after all. She did not fight… But neither did Lyanna Mormont, who is universally praised as a monument of ursine awesomeness.
Both did exactely the same thing : they called on their lieges. That is what Heads of Houses do. It may not seem very spectacular, I am afraid. It most certainly is nowhere as photogenic as charging into battle and fighting with all one’s might. However it can make or break a battle, as we saw ^^
As Maggie and Yaga have eloquently pointed out, Sansa is not Jon’s sidekick, nor is he hers. Each one of them is on his/her own path, not an accessory to the other’s storyline.
I highly doubt there will be a “for the watch” moment between Sansa and Jon… We can all take a deep breath on this front, I think 🙂
There might be a tug-of-war until they figure out how to operate together, their respective roles, prerogatives and attributions in a way that leaves neither of them feeling dismissed.
Sophie’s so cool sneaking that vodka. So cool.
Seriously…what an embarrassment.
She said she’s “seen more than him”, which is complete and utter nonsense.
Yep!! Read all the rest of the comments and there is no doubt in my mind. Most of the hate for Sophis is because she is a woman with opinions.
Also, is seems that a bunch of people don’t get that she is joking when she is “hating” on other characters. But, again, this is probably people who don’t thing women are funny so therefore take everything she says 100% seriously.
I have a vague feeling that next season Tyrion could become a Dragonrider and roast half of King’s Landing, and still the most talked about topic in the show would be Sansa.
This is funny and bizarre in equal measures to me.
Jack Bauer 24,
But it’s not ridiculous. It depends on what she means by it. Jon has seen the wall, and north of the wall, and the WW. But none of that really involves a great deal of politics. Sansa has seen a lot in King’s landing. She’s been witness to a great deal of intrigue.
Clob,
You do realize the drinking age is 18 in the UK? Where Sophie is from?
She’s so cool sneaking in that vodka. Stay classy Sophie.
Taking your angle, I want to bring up something people have said this season about the nobility in Westeros using smallfolk and the oppressed and marginalized for their means. In the North, see the Wildlings being used to take Winterfell. Jon fought against using these marginalized people, like Sansa first suggested, and then he asked them for their help, making it clear that he didn’t want to ask for them, making it clear that it wasn’t their fight. Now, with Sophie saying why Sansa held back the info about the Vale, the deaths of all those marginalized peoples is on her head too, as much as it is on Jon’s, and it’s worse because she did it for self-serving reasons.
Tell me again about oppressed people in liberation movements, though. As a brown girl from a persecuted ethnic group, as someone from a country with liberation movements and ongoing struggles and family in liberation movements, I LOVE to hear it.
None of those politics mean anything with the Night King and his army coming. So yeah, what Jon’s seen is way more important.
And none of this will matter once the WWs come calling.
ghost of winterfell,
It will if Jon can’t successfully negotiate an alliance with anyone not in the North. The North alone can’t beat the WW, he’s going to need help from the South/Dany.
ghost of winterfell,
But it mattered this season.
If people are angry with Sophie, it’s because of her comments, nothing to do with the character Sansa.
Jon is my favorite character and I think Kit Harington is awesome, but if tomorrow he were to start giving interview after interview, where he would keep saying Sansa is so naive, she lacks the intellect that he has, she is sexist, and if he were to start listing all the qualities that he has which Sansa lacks, I would totally disagree with him too, because such behavior, (especially considering how many such interviews have been given) is unprofessional and uncalled for.
Yaga,
But she is talking about the future here when she says he is unfit to be king.
Yaga,
it literally didn’t.That was lf plan all along she did nothing
El-Bobbie,
Jon already has the Wildlings, the North and the Vale knights who were raising their swords to him as the KitN. So let’s wait before we pass such a judgement.
My Goodness, do you realise that they’re in the north and that the KL politics doesn’t really work around there? Also, is she going to make any use of her great politics mastermind manipulations cunning or whatever skills sansa, sophie and her fans thinks she has when the Night King comes south to wreck everything and everyone on his way? I get that the characters aren’t aware of the coming long night (even though sansa does know it), but I’m trully baffled that so many people act oblivious like they don’t know that’s only 13 episodes and not much room for sansa’s politicking, neither she’s surrounded by cunning people to actually have to act like that.
Lisa,
omg stop with bullshit.No it’s not because of that.I am a woman as I suspect there are many who express their opinion.And no I don’t have internalised misogyny or whatever.People disagreeing with Sophie has nothing to do with the fact that she is a woman.There is nothing more annoying that people screaming misogyny at every thing
Lisa,
Most of the hate for Sophis is because she is a woman with opinions.
And here we go…..Lol. If those same opinions kept coming out the mouth of Isaac/Bran had he been the Stark sibling in Sansa’s place I’m pretty sure there would be the same reaction! Tell me, do you really wish to live in a society where people are afraid to openly critique anyone simply because they have a vagina? Therefor it’s fair game if they don’t then right? If so, do you think eventual reverse sexism is the “solution?? Is that what it will take to make certain females feel “empowered?”
Jack Bauer 24,
Exactly. She has seen King’s Landing’s scene only, which will mean nothing to the endgame. She has nothing of significance to contribute now that Long Night is coming. The wars are coming, she has no knowledge or experience in dealing with wartime scenery and the threat beyond the Wall. Jon has been protecting the Realm for years, getting groomed to lead and then rule over Night’s Watch, he showed his diplomatic skills when dealing with the Wildlings, securing their loyalty and uniting them with the Northerners, what has Sansa been doing during that time? Getting played and used as a pawn by others, getting beaten and raped, bitching and moaning but not succeeding in getting people’s loyalty and offering any good non-vague advice on a single guy. She has yet to prove she could take care of herself (others do it for her), let alone a household or an entire kingdom. Sophie has some really warped POV on her character and the story.
ghost of winterfell,
Well at this point I honestly feel that Sophie is jealous of Jon’s popularity. She’s acting really unprofessionally here, bashing him like that.
I took the liberty to edit because I know my posts tend to be overly long. Please forgive me.
I doubt there was much sacrifice on Sansa’s part in regards to the preparation of the Battle. However, if we are talking in broader terms and widen the chronological scope a bit, we may find a few things.
For five years, Sansa was victimised, abused, tormented and worse because, to everyone’s (erroneous) knowledge, she was the “last Stark”, the “key to the North”. Joffrey would have her beaten and humiliated whenever her brother won a battle; the Lannisters married her to Tyrion so he would impregnate her (by force, if needs be) to legitimise their power over the North; the Tyrells attempted to do the same, albeit with more finesse; so did the Boltons in their own brutal, sadistic way.
To the enemies of her family’s lands, she was the North. The embodiment of it. And she paid the price for it.
I cannot help but be reminded of Tyrion’s line, after the Battle of Blackwater : “I bled for this family”. The Little Lion wanted to be recognised for his sacrifice to his pride’s cause; he used this argument to validate his request for his birthright (Casterly Rock).
Sansa bled for her family just as much as Tyrion did for his. Just as much as Jon did, as well.
Cersei said so herself : the life of a disastrously married woman in Westeros is hell. So infernal, in fact, that the Mad Queen herself would have commited suicide if it were not for the ray of sunshine her children provided. While the eldest Lannister is hardly a reference when it comes to… well, anything really (:)), on this matter, she is true.
Sansa, without the relief of babies, did not give in to despair. She did not break, did not thrown herself from the highest tower of the Red Keep. She kept on flying her family’s banners by existing.
That, in my opinion, is a form of courage. Hers are battle scars of a different kind than those most warriors boast about yet here they are.
Her victimisation, of course, does no exonerate her from any criticism her behaviour may cause (she can be incredibly selfish, immature, judgemental, foolhardy, manipulative, morally ambiguous and so on and so forth… Really, if we are to list all her faults, it may take a while ^^); nevertheless, over the course of five years, she did more for her family’s and for the North’s future than Bran, Rickon, Arya and Jon put together. Not by any fault of the aforementioned Fantastic Four, mind you; their circumstances were very different.
Yet, she withstood and that is a form of sacrifice.
So, we are faced with the eternal dilemma of Sansa’s character, which I may have already described in another post, back in the days (sorry for the redundancy) : to the enemies of the North, she is a true Stark and, as such, can be appalingly victimised; to the allies of the North and the Northerners themselves (if Lyanna Mormont is anything to go by), she is of dubious allegiance and can therefore be sidelined and ignored.
I believe a good chunk of Sansa’s arc, both in ASOIAF and GOT, revolves around the squaring of that circle which, I believe, will require for Sansa herself to revendicate her “battle scars” and make the North adopt her back, in a way.
Her crossing the glacial river with Theon in the season 6 opener was a first step. A baptism of sorts.
To be fair, no one seems to understand how the North works… All Sansa knows about it is what Ned told her about it and that was more myth than reality. The idea, which seems shared by everyone in Westeros, that Northern lords are somehow more honourable, more loyal, more faithful, all around super duper awesome, has been proven false this season. They are regular people who can be intimidated and refuse to fight if the incentives are no satisfactory enough.
Ned was wrong about that (amongst many other things…) therefore was Sansa.
As for her caring for the people in the North or people in general… I am not entirely certain how one can determine that either way. So far, we have mostly seen Sansa in isolation, be it in King’s Landing, at the Eyrie, at Winterfell. She has not had much of an opportunity to demonstrate her caring abilities, regardless of the subject matter.
Jenny,
Same here. I’m a woman, I can’t stand Sansa and I dislike Sophie. I judge, agree or disagree with people’s opinions. A man or woman’s opinion, it doesn’t matter to me. It’s the content that matters, not who it belongs to. I’m sure most feel the same way.
I really couldn’t care less about this sansa vs jon conflict they’re all trying so hard to makes us believe in. My whole issue is with Sophie Turner, who I absolutely adore, taking shots on her co-stars’ character which I find it really unprofessional of her. If I was Kit I wouldn’t have appreciate that one bit. I get that Jon Snow is just a fictional character, but that character has brought lots of great things into Kit’s life and I’m sure he has a certain amount of love and attachment for a the character that according to him “has been a part of most his 20s”. Sophie Turner has said many times that Sansa is her other half and that she “thinks more about sansa than she does herself”. She’s also very protective of her character and often puts a halo on Sansa’s head and fiercely defends her like she would defend an insult against herself. I’ve seen many actors treat their characters like their babies, especially when they are playing them for years.
I wonder how would Sophie react if Kit started making headlines taking shots on Sansa. I don’t think she would like her co-star talking about HER characters flaws, especially when this analyse it’s quite inaccurate. It’s just really uncalled for.
Except for the fact that the living’s ability to defeat the “others” will be entirely determined by their capacity to form a united front behind the Wall…
The White Walkers and the wights will work in perfect unison; will the humans ?
Without the support and ressources of many (if not all) the other Kingdoms, the North (the least populated of the seven regions in Westeros) probably does not stand a chance and, ultimately, neither does the rest of the continent. To create the unity indispensable to victory, politics will be absolutely paramount.
The Northern lords have already messed up by declaring their Kingdom independent thereby indirectly opening the door war on Cersei. If she decides to attack, they will have to dedicate forces to a southern battlefront instead of focusing on the Wall. Strike one for the Others !
As for what Jon has seen, it is undoubtedly informative : the White Walkers can be killed by obsidian and Valyrian steel… Ideally, then, the objective is to get as much of both material as possible. By negociating ? Trading ? Forming alliances with houses / entities that either possess the necessary materials or the means to procure them ?
Politics, again…
Jon is the best choice to lead the north, at least through the winter. He’s a wartime king with leadership experience and the support of the northmen and wildlings. None of the scheming and politics really matter when the war for the dawn is coming. If sansa wants to be useful, she needs to keep littlefinger from interfering.
Which Jon should be able to do right? Even on the show he has negotiated with Wildlings and asked Roose Bolton for aid. Along with Davos and Tormund, he was able to convince 2 Northern houses and the Wildlings to support him. Why does he need Sansa? Hype man Davos would be enough as a negotiator with the South.
I don’t get the impression that people have a problem with a woman having opinions. The problem seems to be that the message she delivers on screen as Sansa regularly conflicts with what she states off screen about her character. That suggests she sees Sansa in a way that viewers don’t, so I find it very confusing myself. It’s got to the point where its become irritating and frustrating as a viewer to listen to Sophie articulate how she sees Sansa.
Perhaps it’s just immaturity. Her attempts at being funny don’t come off and she came over as a bit too full of herself in those Comic Con videos.
Sansa was an unpopular character in the beginning but over time people have begun to root for her as awful things befell her. Her suffering continued for so many seasons and finally she escaped Ramsay, got reunited with a family member and got her revenge on the Boltons. I wanted to cheer that moment but instead I’m eye rolling as apparently she’s sulking for not being picked to be QITN and is allowing yet another enemy of the Starks to manipulate her.
Sophie said Sansa is a leader in her own right now. Um since when? She hasn’t led anything at any point.
In Season 1, Sansa to me was a spoilt, shallow and selfish girl. The way she has behaved in Season 6 since she reached Castle Black and beyond just made me think that while she has learned how to survive, she is still the same shallow and selfish girl she was in the beginning and all the horror she has experienced in the meantime has simply hardened her but not changed her fundamentally.
She’s still making bad decisions for selfish reasons and as a viewer it frustrates me, so I feel like shaking her and saying “Wake up!” Jon stupid? No that would be Sansa. She thinks she’s smarter than she is….rather like Cersei.
ghost of winterfell,
And he needs the Lannisters and Tyrells and Dany’s army and everyone else to basically align together. None of those people care that he’s Ned’s bastard, he’s going to need to gain their support some other way.
El-Bobbie,
Cersei will be done by that time.Tyrion already likes Jon and he and Dany are sensible people who if Jon tells them the ice zombies are coming will obviously help.To make it official tyrion might propose they get married.Not to mention he might not be Ned’s bastard but he is Dany’s nephew.She will care about that
Sophie is always making jokes about Kit since the incident of the letter. She said he took a lot of time to arrange his hair and now she said he farted a lot. Kit did make fun of her letter … I suppose the writers have told them there will be more rivalry between them in Season 7 and she is playing with it. She obviously likes Littlefinger character. He is an interesting character but following him is not the best for Sansa. I remember Sophie said she loved to film the rape scene once and that she wanted Sansa to die or what was the point of being in GOT, so she is always keeping in mind what is more interesting for her like an actress not what is better for her character… The fact is she hasn’t read the scripts for Season 7, so she really knows nothing. The writers usually lie to them about the storyline.
Come on, she’s just 20 and a typical youngster. Kit Harington is nearly 30 and of course he is going to be more mature in the way he discusses the character. Sophie just has a very poor understanding of the story and characters. I don’t think she even watches the show.
I will criticize her acting and emoting though, because most of what Sophie talks about hardly comes through in Sansa on the show.
Hmm, nope. Ned wasn’t wrong. The north followed the starks into their personal wars. They followed Robb as well. They didn’t follow a bastard and a stark turned lannister then bolton because they barely had time to recover from everything else that happened to them after the starks’ fall. They’ve have lost people too, you know?
Also, yes it can be determined that Sansa never cared about the north. Haven’t you watched her last scene with Littlefinger in the Godswood? she said she went there everyday when she was a girl to pray to be FAR AWAY. Once she was far away in King’s Landing all she couldn’t wait to become an offcial lannister just like her then idol Cersei. She so didn’t care about the north and winterfell that she disobeyed her father’s and went to tell his plans to Cersei, so that the Queen would prevent her for going back to Winterfell, and we all know how that turned out, don’t we? She was also very happy at the prospect to marry handsome Loras Tyrell and live happily ever after in HighGarden.
Last, you can’t really say that she has bled for the north or suffered more that Bran, Rickon, Jon and Arya. They all have been through different kinds/levels of hell.
ACME,
And still, even considering that Jon did a better job at rallying, uniting and inspiring people than Sansa. She did nothing on that front. And she’s the trueborn Stark. She massively misjudged the North, Davos showed more awareness of her home than she did. She stupidly thought they would come running to help her just because she was born a Stark, she completely disregarded the fact she married into two enemy Houses and it could prove problematic to the Northerners. She disregarded the Northern Lords’ mindset in the aftermath of the War of the Five Kings and Red Wedding. She was arrogant and pissed off Lord Glover. She didn’t even get the Knights of the Vale on her own, as in through her merits or cunning. That was Littlefinger. And he did so only because he wants to get into her pants and rule Westeros, so Winterfell is a stepping stone for him. Sansa has not been a player, she is still a tool.
SerNoName,
Hmm… I do not recall casting any doubt on Jon’s abilities in this regard so I fail to understand the need for what I perceive, wrongly perhaps, as sarcasm.
I was merely responding to the assertion that politics is obsolete when it comes to the Long Night, that this war will somehow not require any political know-how in order to be won. That, to me, is absurd.
Can Jon do it ? I have no doubt he can.
Can he do that and broker deals with non-Northern Houses who do not know him and have never heard of him ? Maybe, it will have to be tested.
Can he do all that and oversee the North for its “everyday” matters (the preparation for the future big battle does not negate the need for the people to eat today) ? Hmm… That’s a lot of things to do.
Can he do all that and potentially fight (and win) a war against a very insane Lannister he knows nothing about ? Huh…
Can he do all of that and negociate with a Dragon Queen who wants the whole of Westeros as hers, all seven kingdoms (not six), even though the North has just declared itself independent therefore no longer part of Westeros as a political entity ? Of course ! And if and when he fails, he will just have to fly around the Earth very fast so as to reverse its rotation and go back in time. This way, he will get to try again !
I do apologise for being facetious but I fail to understand why it is such a bone of contention to suggest Jon may not be great at everything or able to achieve everything simultaneously. Why is it so vexing ?
It reminds me of some of the reactions post-BOTB : in the tent, Sansa told Jon that, were they to lose the battle, she would rather commit suicide than be taken alive by Ramsay. Jon then proceded to tell her he would always protect her to which Sansa responded that he could not protect her for “no one could protect anyone”. There appeared to be a general sentiment of upset over her not taking Jon’s promise seriously.
I have no doubt Jon’s words were in earnest, uttered with utmost sincerity and love however they truly were meaningless. Had he and his army lost the battle, how could he have stopped Ramsay ? How could he have protected Sansa ? He could not have.
Regardless of his best intentions, of which he has plenty, he is not omnipotent.
Him being a mere human is not a stain on his character.
It really isn’t, though. By any definition. Jon blatantly has more knowledge and experience leading and there is no evidence in this show of Sansa possessing superior intellect (or much of any, really). And that’s just the show, where 80% of Jon’s non-combat strengths have been omitted. To put it bluntly, book Jon could lose half of his IQ points in a head injury and he’d still be more intelligent than Sansa in either medium.
I’m more or less indifferent to Sansa, but I’d be willing to consider some of her alleged strengths had they actually been presented to the audience. As such, it’s just Sophie (and Isaac, bizarrely) lauding Sansa for skills that we’ve never actually seen. She’s good at biting her tongue, using her courtesy mask to survive, controlling her emotions, lying to people who aren’t Lannisters, and has recently become more driven and proactive. These I will grant her. But no, we’ve seen nothing resembling leadership skills, diplomacy, or advanced intellect from her.
I keep seeing the “Jon isn’t flawless” strawman trotted out during these debates (even though nobody actually claimed this), but at this point we’re just inventing weaknesses in him that run counter to his previous actions and overall character concept. It’s one thing to point out that a character acted rashly or naively in a certain instance, and quite another to name those their overriding traits and completely ignore all the instances in which they displayed shrewdness or calculation. It would be akin to continuing to call Sansa spineless despite the fact that she’s grown more assertive this season.
You can point out that Jon underestimated Ramsay after one conversation. I can point out that Sansa underestimated him all the way up until her wedding night. I can also point out that Jon was the only person at Castle Black who didn’t underestimate Mance’s forces, and had Alliser Thorne listened to him, far fewer men would have died during the attack at the Wall. You can point out that Jon had a hard time convincing Lyanna Mormont and Lord Glover to join his cause. I can point out that so did Sansa, but at least Jon previously succeeded in convincing the Night’s Watch to join him in avenging Commander Mormont and the wildlings to help him take back Winterfell. Can we state categorically that Jon has trouble persuading people? No. We can state that he had trouble persuading a couple of Northern houses. Can we state categorically that Jon is naive? On the show, somewhat. But it’s pretty much a wash between him and Sansa. Underestimating the mutineers and Ramsay has nothing on Sansa’s track record: Joffrey, Cersei, the Tyrells, Ser Dontos, Littlefinger, also Ramsay…and now Littlefinger again. The people Sansa has distrusted include Brienne, Davos, and Jon himself. She’s the last person who should be advising Jon in any capacity.
We can probably make lists detailing all the times one character acted more wisely or more rashly than the other, and we’d be here all day. It all boils down to the fact that Jon’s arc has always been about learning to lead, as per GRRM and D&D. That’s his function in this story. No matter how many times he screws up (and he’s far from the only character who’s done so) the overwhelming majority of the audience have never lost sight of this. Sophie is stating her opinion, but in doing so she’s reflecting a fundamental lack of understanding of the narrative and her character’s purpose within it. If she truly believes that Sansa has the better resume for this job, she’s living in a dreamworld.
ghost of winterfell,
He didn’t do so hot at his last administrative post, this much I can tell. I wonder what will happen once the moment passes and the excitement cools….
Nevertheless, the key point here is: the North did not elect Jon on the basis of any of his supposed or existent leadership skills. They elected him, without giving Sansa a moment’s thought, because he’s the man of the pair and the North is a conservative, misogynistic place. Sophie is right when she says that Sansa feels snubbed, and Sansa has all the right to feel snubbed, as far as I’m concerned. Jon, if he were a good leader, could have alleviated this unpleasant situation by thanking Sansa in public and acknowledging her role – if not proposing co-rule. After all, they have just achieved a revolution, why not go the least bit more? But, perhaps caught in the moment (which, again, if he were a good leader, he shouldn’t be), he did not. And finally, Sophie belongs to a generation of women who feel free to say that their avatars should be included in the power structures – for which she is now apparently chastised? Which I, personally, find to be a nasty thing.
Nathalie Emmanuel AND Sophie Turner in leather skirts.
https://67.media.tumblr.com/b264bfa13b6e7648908261889b119d2e/tumblr_inline_o74o4pkWnE1rys4yw_500.gif
Yaga,
People disagree with her because she talks nonsense not because women in the show shouldn’t be in power structures.Like are we watching the same show?One of the most popular characters who people are rooting for since the beggining is a woman.There were literally three queens at the end of season six.Westeros is a sexist place but Jon is honesly the less sexist of them all.The north absolutely chose Jon for his skills.They saw him fight and he is presented as front and center during the whole campaign.She literally hyped him herself all season gave him a cloak told him the north will fight for the son of the last true warden of the north and when they do she is butthurt??
elybe,
Wow. You hit nails right on the head with that post. Well said!
Jenny,
1. If fighting skills were indicative of quality of rule, Robert would have been a fine king. There is a reason why we mostly don’t elect MMA fighters as presidents.
2. The fact that other plots have women rulers bears no influence on Sansa’s, from Sansa’s point of view.
3. Jon is not actively sexist, sure. I’m with you on that. But, as I argued earlier, it probably didn’t even occur to him that he should make at least the tokenest of gestures advancing Sansa’s own empowerment in return for her support of him. He can be blind like this. A lot of people are.
Yaga,
Jon must thank Sansa lying to her?
Jon doit remercier Sansa de lui avoir menti ?
Jenny,
That’s one of the problems I have with any prospective Jon/Sansa friction based on Sansa’s ego or ambitions.
She herself repeatedly asserted Jon’s place as a Stark this season.
If she has been manipulating him the whole time, in order to get him to fight her war for him then that’s one thing. And if that’s the case then they should have perhaps made it a little more explicit, because right now Sansa’s motivations seem completely muddled.
Or if she was being genuine then there should be no justification for her to feel jealous and the writing would feel inconsistent if she suddenly develops a burning jealousy next season.
I hope that they are merely trying to build up this idea of Sansa being jealous and not thinking Jon’s worthy of being King in order to make Littlefinger’s manipulation of her next season more believable before she eventually asserts her loyalty to her brother and her House.
Because I simply do not see the justification for what Sophie has been describing in the material that aired in Season 6.
I do know; the show has made a remarkably clear point of highlighting this fact, as it should. The cost of war is tremendous and to demonstrate that was a powerful decision on the part of the writers.
So was their other decision to have the Northern lords express their regrets over not having followed the Starks and fought against the family who victimised and killed them once the battle was won…
Ned’s stance on the North was always that its inhabitants were, by some snow-induced magic, more fiercely loyal than any other regions’ lieges.
Yes, they have always followed their lords into their personal battles, However, in this regard, it does not distinguish them in any way from any other lords of any other kingdoms : the Western lords have always abided by the Lannisters, the armies of the Reach never fail the Tyrells, etc.
For Ned to proclaim “extraordinary” allegiance of the Northern lords, they would have to go the extra mile. They did not. They had every good reason not to, I would never begrudge them that, however it contradicts quite squarely Ned’s narrative.
Furthermore and on a slightly jokier note, the Boltons were Northern lords too. Do we count them amongst the “genetically engineered to be super loyal because born north of the Neck” group ? ^^
Oh, there is no doubt teenage Sansa had no affection for the North. That was well established and a massive character point.
As for her wanting to live happily ever after in High Gardens, hell, why wouldn’t she ? At that point in her story, it was either be safe among the only family who ever treated her nicely, go with Littlefinger (against whom she had been warned) or stay in King’s Landing to be tormented by the Lannisters… High Gardens, here we come !
Sansa has always cared about as much for the North as the North has cared for her. Her eldest brother, the previous KITN, refused to exchange her release of King’s Landing against that of Jaime Lannister because it would not have benefited the North. So she may have not felt all that sentimental over it for a long time. It was not until the Vale and her reintroduction with snow (both as a substance and as a symbol) that her craving for what she then started to identify as “home” manifested itself.
Ever since, her relationship with the region has been more positive, in spite of everything.
I was not comparing their suffering in the absolute but merely in terms of “in the name of being a Stark”. They did, as you point out, all went through their own version of hell.
However, Sansa’s version was stamped “Stark / Northerner”.
The Waif did not target Arya because she was a Stark; she did it for whatever pathological dislike of Arya the Waif had.
The White Walkers did not attack the Night’s Watch and kill many of Jon’s friends and brothers because he was a Stark; they did it because it is what they do.
Same thing for Rickon and Bran.
It is not a matter of quantifying each suffering (even I would not be so offuscating) but to name their respective justification. Sansa was, for five years, the last Stark known to the world and she suffered as a direct consequence of it and in the name of it.
Yet, the only reason Littlefinger even has the Vale (and is still alive instead of scattered on some mountain rocks) is because of Sansa. She secured the Vale for him and saved his life.
I like Sophie …
But I am angry. Why denigrate Jon? And why be sarcastic towards Kit? I think it disrespectful.
J’aime bien Sophie …
Mais je suis en colère. Pourquoi dénigrer Jon ? Et pourquoi être moqueuse envers Kit? Je pense qu’elle manque de respect.
Yaga,
we will never see eye to eye regarding this so it’s pointless to discuss
Sansa is a egoist character.
Sansa wants revenge.
Jon wants to save his brother and help Sansa.
Jon is a better person, a better leader, even if he is not a good politician, Davos is there.
Sansa est un personnage égoiste.
Sansa veut se venger.
Jon veut sauver son frère et aider Sansa.
Jon est une meilleur personne, un meilleur dirigeant, même s’il n’est pas un bon politicien, Davos est là.
The Sansa train never stops…… Lord have mercy on our souls
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
LOL
And Faye Marsay was stunning, I did not recognize her at first..
Yaga,
I think Jenny’s reference to the other female leaders on the show was in response to your assertion that Sophie shouldn’t be chastised for suggesting that her “avatar” should be included in the power structures.
The fact that Daenerys, Cersei, Yara etc have achieved power in the show demonstrates that any gripes Sophie has about Sansa not being in power should take into account the way other female characters have gained power and how/why people have supported/believed in those female characters doing so.
Just because they don’t agree that Sansa deserves power does not mean they are chastising Sophie for daring to suggest that a female character be involved in power.
Jenny,
Sansa is all over the place. She’s extremely petty and hypocritical. She claims Jon should be Lord and have the Lord’s chamber, when Jon told her that she should have all the power and responsibility (she rejected it) in their scene on Winterfell battlements but then feels butthurt when she is denied that power and responsibility by the Northern Lords? Come one, make up your goddamn mind girl. She thinks one thing but does another and there’s no organic flow to it.
Mihnea,
Yeah, Faye looks pretty stunning in her playsuit(?) too. She must not have got the memo about the leather skirts. 😉
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Yeah that’s one of my problems as well.I think there are a couple of things at play here.Sophie exaggerates things and let’s say is not the most insightful one regarding the show.She enjoys stirring the pot and pretending Sansa is better than everyone.But it’s true that the writers and everybody else are dumming up the #drama so next season there will be the twist that she sticks it to lf as you said.I dont care that there will be conflict between Jon and Sansa my problem is that her reason are so flimsy and petty and the show wants me to think that she is right.Like no no way that is not how I saw it in my screen
At least he had the experience of holding an administrative post as opposed to Sansa.
By attributing Jon’s elevation to king entirely to misogyny, you are doing him injustice. If it was pure misogyny, it would not be Lyanna Mormont who swore by him and proclaimed him king. And if the other northern lords were so misogynistic, they would not have so readily accepted that Lyanna Mormont was right and they were wrong
The northerners know about their biggest threat now and they realize that Jon is the leader they need at such a time.
I never said that Sophie should not wish for her character to have power, so I don’t know where that comes from. However, if Sansa were going to betray her brother to get that power, I wouldn’t support her.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Yeah that’s I meant.Any gripes that people have with Sansa or if they think she shouldn’t be a queen or Jon is a better leader than her have nothing to do with the fact she is a woman.There are plenty of females in the show who I enjoy
Jesus H Christ, someone shoot me in the head and end my misery already. The throngs of people who are unable to differentiate between actors and characters they play are staggering. Oh my God, Sophie (NOT Sansa) is poking fun at Jon (NOT Kit)! How inconsiderate and rude. How dare she? Tie her to a stake together with the Archheretic Alex Graves!
There are times I am so embarrassed to belong to this fandom.
To those who think Sansa wasn’t done right by Jon:
Do you remember when Jon and Sansa were standing outside he told her she’s the lady of Winterfell and he had the master chamber prepared for her? Do you remember when she said “You should have it” and that to her, he is a Stark??? Do you remember when the men and little Bear were swearing allegiance to Jon and he looked over at Sansa for support and to gauge how she’s feeling? Why in the hell should he have had to shout at the men over the din to remind them that his sister helped? Why did anyone want him to grovel before her in front of the northern Lords and Littlefinger? Jon is not the kind of person to think his sister is feeling anything but happy for him/them that the North is rallying around them. Call him naive then, but it’s only because he doesn’t understand the kind of ego that would be resentful like she apparently is. Sure, Sansa did good by accepting the offer of the army and yes they were able to save the day, thankfully, so yeah she had a hand in getting back the family home. Does that mean she deserves to be made a queen of the north? Remember there was no king or queen title at that point in time. That title does not belong to her just because she’s a true born Stark. You know, when a person helps others out of kindness we consider them good human beings, heroes even depending on the circumstances, but when you find out they did it only for their own personal glory it makes them much less likable does it not? Sister comes to brother to fight a war on their behalf. Brother assembles an army, fights side by side with his men, pursues the enemy and beats him and because sister essentially makes a phone call for reinforcements she deserves to be elected queen? Jon was reminding them of the threat on the horizon and more battles to come, they know he’s the only one there who’s seen and fought with the enemy and he just proved his mettle on the battlefield, that is what prompted them to make him leader/King. What was Sansa going to do against a massive physical threat?? This isn’t about her. It’s not about stroking anyone’s ego. For Jon, and Davos and Tormund it’s about trying to save humanity, fighting for their very existence.
Well, watching the videos the only good info I got was that they filming into February.
Guys and Gals, stop with the Sophie bashing. Her character is not one of my favorites, but getting upset about what a 20 year young girl said should happen, I mean come on.
I can literally imagine some of you stomping your feet.
Don’t bother commenting, I will not visit this ridiculous conversation again.
Peace out.
This fandom is so easy 🙂 .
ACME,
So much clutching the pearls in this comment section indeed! It’s equally sad and hilarious! 🙂
I really enjoyed your posts, as usual!
Mr Fixit,
Haha. It has become a little goofy yeah. Tbh I’m sure it doesn’t bother Kit in the least and he’d probably get a chuckle out of people taking offense to what his friend and co star said about his fictional character. Some need to realize that the actors themselves, I’m sure, are not invested or as protective of characters as the viewers who get absorbed in the story.
But hey we are hungry for shit like this in the off season right? 🙂
So she’s “salty” because she disliked people hating on her largely innocuous character? That seems like a fairly legitimate gripe, particularly when people were so rude about it.
Er, all of those things were jokes, not remotely serious. She was not “openly hating” on anyone.
jdtargstark,
Read reviews … It is noted
Here’s another interview :
During a cast interview with EW at Comic-Con, actress Sophie Turner, who plays Sansa, gave some insight into the loaded look exchanged by her and Littlefinger (Aidan Gillen) in the episode. She also hinted at what it could mean for Sansa’s (alleged) bastard brother, Jon Snow.
“There’s always a bit of sibling rivalry between Sansa and Jon; there has been since they were very young,” Turner said. “I think that look between Sansa and Littlefinger is her kind of acknowledging that his points are somewhat legitimate, and she’s kind of intrigued as to that pretty little picture that he painted of him on the Iron Throne and her by his side.”
Turner continued, “She’s kind of thinking, ‘Well, he’ll give me the credit that I deserve.’ But it’s very interesting to see where her loyalties will now lie — whether she’ll go with Jon or Littlefinger.”
Yaga,
that he should make at least the tokenest of gestures advancing Sansa’s own empowerment in return for her support of him.
Why does Jon need to make a token gesture of support to Sansa? Is it because she’s a woman and needs a man to advance her empowerment? And are you saying she needs his further encouragement in order to feel justified in her continued support of him, her own brother? Because in my book, he just “supported” the hell out of her and for that, he already deserves her support in return no?
Newbietothegame,
It will be 10 months of this….
Good lord….
EDIT: On a positive note, this makes it easier for me to avoid the comments and stay spoiler-free……I think I read 10 or so comments in this thread
John has always seemed to me as the guy who inspires loyalty once you get to know him, but he’s not very charismatic, that’s why he always needs someone to speak for him. Like, he asked for the Wildlings help twice (first at Hardhome and then at the BotB) and in both occasions it was Tormund who had to speak for him. The show has only showed us two times in which Jon and Sansa were looking for the support of the Northern houses and in both cases they failed to get the armies they needed, Davos was the one who had to speak for them.
I don’t get were this notion of Jon being a good leader comes from. He is one of my favs because he’s a great warrior, very noble and honest and he has always the best intentions, but I don’t agree about his leadership skills. I think this season was the first time we saw him truly leading un army, and he f#ucked up royalty, I mean I understand why he did what he did, it wouldn’t have being Jon if he didn’t al least try to save his brother, but he knew they only had a chance if they sticked with their strategy and he didn’t have the cold mind needed to lead his men imo.
I don’t think Sansa has more skills than Jon has (for all we know at least) but I think she has being in the middle of the whole political plot for years and she must have learned something, while Jon plot was more isolated and focused on the supernatural aspect of the show (and his short time as Lord Commander didn’t went so well), so I think both of them have the same chances to prove they could potentially be good leaders. Jon has the good intentions and the bravery to do the right thing no matter what (but that’s not always a good thing) and Sansa has the cold mind to see the real game, so they could complement each other.
I agree with Sophie about Sansa being totally brushed aside, because if Sansa wouldn’t have sent the letter (regardless of her intentions, or the reasons she kept that information for herself) they would all be dead meat by now, even Jon admitted she saved the day. I think she was overlooked because the North society is so mysogenistic that they didn’t even consider Sansa as a candidate to rule Winterfell (I think Jon should’ve mention her contribution though); but I undersatand that, at the speed the show is moving, Jon had to rise to power as quickly as possible.
I have no doubts Jon will end up to being a good leader, but for the time being he hasn’t proved to be particularly good at it imo
I am sorry to ask but when did we get to “Sansa has superior intellect” ?
Unless I am hugely mistaken which is always a possibility, to state that Jon and Sansa have different intellects does not imply that one is superior to the other, does it ? Two things can be identified as dissimilar without necessarily introducting the idea of a hierarchy.
I doubt anyone thinks of Sansa as some incredible genius, about to introduce Westeros to the theoretical wonderland of string theory 🙂
I believe the only point that has been made in this regard is that she might have skills, knowledge or thought processes that Jon does not have, due to the fact that they have been shaped by very different sets of experiences, and that some of those skills may come in handy when ruling a territory.
It has nothing to do with dumbing down Jon or reducing him to some sort of war machine deprived of any form of cunning. It is not binary : either one is brilliant and the other dumb; or the other way around. They can have different forms of intelligences, with different uses for them, without one being considered precious and the other useless.
Every IQ point one might attribute to Sansa is not taken away from Jon’s own personal cranium. 😉
I wish I could think of it as a strawman unfortunately I cannot.
To the best of my knowledge and reading abilities, which are both imperfect of course, nobody on the panel called Jon “stupid” or “limited” or any other such word. The only thing that was mentioned was that Sansa might have skills Jon lacks and that those skills might come in handy in regards to the role Jon was attributed. That’s all.
Now, one may debate whether said skills have been sufficiently shown onscreen. That is an entirely valid question. I believe they have been hinted at and, in some instances, showcased in such a way I, as a viewer, can bet on them coming up when need be; of course, your mileage may vary.
But regardless, the idea that Jon and Sansa (or Jon and anyone, for that matter) may have dissimilar abilities thereby making them better suited for this rather than that role seems so fundamentally inoffensive to me that I cannot, for the life of me, fathom why its mere suggestion is received with such affront. Unless said reaction stems from a desire to see Jon as self-sufficent, thereby ultimately flawless, as possible.
I do get it, to a degree.
Jon is the ultimate underdog and, as such, a sympathy magnet. I feel it too. He has many qualities, all superb and magnificent. And he is cute as a button, which is always a plus.
But he cannot do everything. Even he does not believe that. If he could, he would be dull as mud. 😉
You are absolutely correct in this regard. Jon’s arc is all about him becoming a leader and he has done nothing but that since day one. No one can (or wants to) take that from him.
He is one of the incarnation of the song of ice and fire and as such, is one of the main protagonists of the story. Seven hells, he might even be Azor Ahai !
However, leading and ruling are two very different beasts, requiring very different abilities.
Robert Baratheon was a prime example of that. So was Robb Stark. Both tremendous leaders and very mediocre (at best) rulers.
It has nothing to do with good intentions or nice personality types. Daenerys might be the best intentioned character there is (ending slavery is as noble a goal as it gets) and one of the bravest and most rigorous in terms of morality.
Yet, her rule over Mereen was, for lack of a more charitable word, lamentable : destroy the existing political, economical and social structure; replace it with absolutely nothing of substance thereby creating the perfect terrain for a civil war; fly away when the going gets tough; come back; be shocked that everything is not going great; threaten people with dragons; leave some random dude in charge; change the name of the place; depart for good. Mission accomplished !
If Mereen does not descend into utter chaos after six months, I will be astonished.
Conversely, while nobody would want to be led by them, Tyrion, Varys and Littlefinger (gasp ^^) have all the talents of remarkable rulers. They understand governing; the compromises, the concessions such a role entails; the shrewd ruthlessness and moral plasticity required to have different groups of people with different interests and wants coexist as peacefully as possible; the calculated risks one takes when giving in to this or that demand.
Is Jon capable of both leading and ruling, as his new titles and roles (KITN and “general” of the living in their war against the “others”) would require him to be ? Could he be a political ruler as well as a strategical leader ? He may very well be.
We already know he is prepared to lead. That’s 50% of the job done. For the remaining half, we’ll see.
However, we cannot forget George RR Martin’s own words : “My reading of history has shown me that simply ‘being a good man’ is not enough. That there are many kings who are good men and yet bad kings. And even good kings sometimes make disasterous decisions. So government is complex, politics is complex.”
The credit she deserves? For writing a letter and sitting back, not even telling anybody, and then waiting for LF to ride in and save her ass?
Yeah, really amazing leader.
Sneaking vodka like a little child in middle school and sniveling about it like she is so cool AND talking crap about Jon’s character without Kit even there?
Stay classy Sophie. Stay classy.
Isn’t Nathalie also in the Fast & Furious movies?
…she wasn’t in the UK. Some have said she had Isaac take a shot too, who is 17. Can anyone confirm that was said in the panel or interviews? I’m avoiding watching the panel because I can’t stand Sophie :^)
Jack Bauer 24,
In a logical world, sitting on such military information for no good reason would warrant her an execution.
In a logical world, Littlefinger would also not be allowed to roam free in Winterfell.
Yes, I do realize that and I personally don’t have a problem with her drinking. However, the drinking age where she was (California) is 21 and there is not an exception for a person being foreign. There is no ‘diplomatic immunity’ on the drinking age. Of course being all “Hollywood” and famous, people can slip by much of the time. If any old 18 year old from Chesterton is carded at a pub in say Kansas City, that person will not be served as it’s illegal.
Was a rather embarrassing display to be taking shots on stage in front of all these people. That’s supposed to be funny? And this excuse that she’s young…do you think Maisie Williams would have been up there sneaking under the table vodka shots out of a cap? So, “young” has nothing to do with it. I think she made an absolute fool of herself. You could see Conleth Hill looked thrilled by the behavior.
IRC it was David that said at the beginning that Sophie made them all take a shot before coming out.
OT but someone on YouTube said that you can see the sigils of House Baratheon (stag) and House Whent (bat) at the 1:00 mark of the Season 7 teaser https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjue5j1JRaA
I’m staring at my laptop’s screen for about 2 minutes now but I can’t really tell. I got really excited when I read this xD
In case you haven’t come across it yet, this is from what Sophie said in the interview – that Jon is not a good leader and Sansa is more knowledgeable and more intelligent… (something to that effect).
El-Bobbie,
I didn’t noticed that but if so yeah they’re gonna dumb him down or they simply don’t have a clue.
orange,
Many young people think that drinking (and smoking) is a sign of being an adult. It is so not. And doing so at a fan event is unprofessional. This is misconduct. She’s there promoting the show as part of her job. Anyone caught doing shots at their workplace, during working hours, would receive a formal letter of reprimand or worse get fired on the spot. A fan convention is a workplace for an actor. But of course actors get a pass on such behaviour just because. It’s the whole Hollywood cult worship.
If she has to get drunk to endure fans it says a lot about her.
Jack Bauer 24,
This has got you really worked up for some reason. She doesn’t take any of this that seriously, which is a good example for everybody else to follow.
Icekhione,
Her fellow cast and crew were also drinking, according to them.
You don’t understand. I wasn’t making fun of her or any of that. I expected some of fans to jump on this but more of what was said about Jon fits Daeny better. Like being worshipped, loved. What I don’t ant is another person falling in love with her because it gets boring. Not that she doesn’t deserve that but something more original would be nice if she fall for someone and I don’t mean Jon. It could be someone else because political marriage seems more likely if Jon is still in the position of power.
As for Jon he’s not playing Game of Thrones. Well, only partially with Sansa aand LF because his main concern is something far more important and that is Army of The Dead coming their way. Of course that means he’s oblivious to politics. In the books he’s actually a lot smarter sothey dumb him down a bit. But neverthless it’s more of case of him preparing for walker rather than play game. It gos back to what Mormont told him. If his brother’s war is more important than his. We’re slowly shifting from politics to magic. Rhaegar wouldn’t be good King in my opinion either.
Rhaenys Stark,
Presumably what looks like a House Whent shield is the one to the right of the shield with the Arryn/Vale sigil on it. A yellowish looking shield with black, bat-like(?) shapes arranged on it.
The Baratheon shield is right in the centre underneath the black shield at the top.
Sean C.,
Then HBO should dock their pay for the first episode of season 7 at the least.
I wish I could say with assurance that this won’t happen, but I can only hope they won’t!
Icekhione,
I can only laugh at your comment… the distance some people are willing to go, honestly!!
Icekhione,
I’d be pretty sure they don’t care, seeing as the producers were there drinking too, and it had absolutely no impact. But complain away.
Sean C.,
Can someone explain why people are getting so worked up over some comments? Actor/ Actress says something that some person does not like.
Internet response – Hang them NOW!
Sean C.,
It shows unprofessional behaviour and disrespect for the fans. The fans that made this show successful and those people famous and rich. They can drink their asses off but wait until the event is over, not do it before and during it.
Jack Bauer 24,
She’s 20
I don’t know how old you are sir but relax she’s just having fun
When I was 20 I was very carefree and jokey. I still am
People need to chill about Sophie lol it’s coming of as haters rather than logical comments
Maggie,
She was a drunk mess during the panel that is what the hate is about. Everyone there literally waited since early afternoon the day before to see them and she’s doing shots under the table. It was very unprofessional and kind of rude to the fans that waited all night.
Dee Stark,
Did you drink at work too?
orange,
Maisie would have done the same
Maisie and Sophie love partying you can see that by their photos
I find it funny how people are judging the fact that cast were having some fun taking vodka shots during or before the panel
It’s really not your place to do so
Why can’t these people have some fun
Man this crowd here needs to chill out lol
Jon isn’t Kit’s. It’s a fictional character created by GRRM and written by D &D for the rest of the tv show…. and D&D were there. People talk about him without Kit being here for 20 years.
I say they should fire them all, and most of all have Sophie to do a shame walk for daring to take a shot.
Since i made that comment for Jon, i hate it the same when people pretend Dany or any other character is perfect and amazing, i would make the same comment if Peter was saying that Dany isn’t as smart as Tyrion.
Sean C.,
Well said.
For goodness grace people, look what you did! Me and Sean agreeing with something!!!
Dee Stark,
10 months of…. we will have 10 months of this…..
Everyone deserves to have some fun, let’s all get drunk at work on Monday. See how it plays out.
Icekhione,
It’s not work
It’s a work event
And yes I drink at work events
And you can’t compare an office job to showbiz event like comic con Lol that’s such a bad example hahahha
Seriously loosen up a bit
Mihnea,
I know
Disastrous lol
Dee Stark,
Some people expect there to be massive news about next season from panels like this. Ignoring the fact that they haven’t even started filming yet, nor have they cast any roles. TBH if I had to go comic con and do a panel I would probably drink as well. Mostly because I hate big crowds and loud noises (which may be a result of Asperger’s) and as I would probably not get asked any meaningful questions.
Sigh, I remember the days when I use to wait eagerly on Friday for this to be posted. Now I’m watching it a full today later. ::cries::
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I hope so. I also was very surprised when I listened to the writers and actors in the Inside the Episode interviews … Sansa’s behaviour was confusing then. She genuinely acted like she wanted Jon to take the Lord Chamber and that he was a Stark for her … but then she got angry when he was chosen King. So, she was actually manipulating him and expecting the Northerners would choose her because she was the legitimate Stark.
At this point, after everything she has suffered I just can’t believe Sansa would risk everything for more power. I really hope she is trying to manipulate Littlefinger and pretend to be on his side because they need the Vale and eventually she will betray him.
There are only 13 episodes left and Sansa betraying her family again would be underwhelming as if she didn’t learn anything.
Dee Stark,
This they are there to drink and have fun…and answer couple of silly questions or question they were asked 100 times before.
They are not at work there, no one forces them to go there, as Emilia, Maisie, Kit and Peter’s absence show, the last never attend comic-con from what I remember.
They know very well, they are not there to answer deep question related to the plot or discuss themes in the story and literature, they are there to fool a bit with the fans and among themselves.
Dee Stark,
It’s even funnier that the hate is only aimed at Sophie Turner, and not the other adults who also agreed to consume alcohol.
Dan and David are the heads of the show and they still did shots. I suppose they also need to “Stay classy”.
Tbh I would also get drunk to deal with fans, if they were like some of the people in this site.
Jack,
They don’t need to explain themselves
This is a fun event it’s not a UN panel meeting lol
And considering that the cast hasn’t even seen the script or nothing has been filmed yet the whole questions answers is pure jokes.
People just love to complain about things that make absolutely no sense
Mihnea,
Well not make you feel worse we will have a year of this not ten months lol
LatrineDiggerBrian,
As much as I disagree with you, I can but not feel a bit ”sorry”.
I felt the exact same things you feel in back in 2006.
Vicent Stark,
This
It’s ridiculous lol
They probably did shots to handle the crazy fandom
Dee Stark,
It’s not a work event. She’s there to promote the show and meet with the fans, she’s there to do a job. It’s not a company party. She sounds like a mess. She’s reminding me of the mess Kristen Stewart was during her Twilight stint. Hollywood lifestyle is getting to her head.
Mihnea,
Hahaha I know I agree totally
Icekhione,
Lol you’re funny
I would drink a whole bottle to deal with fans of your kind
My God.
Thank goodness that someone on this thread is rational. I feel the need to point something out here, especially to
Jack Bauer 24, who usually doesn’t join in on the craziness:
SOPHIE. IS. 20. YEARS. OLD.
She is little more than a sorority girl with a very exciting job. Having that job does not make her mature any faster. Her behavior, her comments, are all VERY age-appropriate. She, like both Sansa and Jon in their world, does not have the life experience to navigate these RL and professional events flawlessly. Jeesh!
I skimmed the rest of this thread to try to avoid raising my blood pressure over the horrible comments about a young (VERY YOUNG) actress making her way in a very complex role (theatrically and IRL). If this is what the “true” fandom is all about, I guess I cannot count myself among the “true” fans. I’m glad that
ACME, has the energy, patience and temperament to to try to talk some sense into a lot of you. You should all examine from where your real problem with Sophie arises. My goodness! Such vitriol!
ps: Whoever posted above that there is a rivalry between Sophie and Maisie and that’s why Maisie wasn’t on the panel needs to reexamine their source material. :/
pps: Ladies, count me in on the Iain Glen train. That man is H.O.T. hot!!
Dee Stark,
I agree, this kind of personal attack on Sophie is totally uncalled for.
NorthernLass,
I was there she was drunk. It is very easy to tell the difference between a drunk girl and a buzzed girl. I have been both many times. I have also performed at comic con so I know about getting up in front of people and wanting a shot. She must have had more than a few shots she was drunk. The video really doesn’t showcase what a debacle that was.
Overall Jon’s communication skills are very limited. He really doesn’t know how to align his interests with the others. This video summarizes the main points wonderfully https://youtu.be/ccrQObMjg1U
Ashara D,
Agreed, we take this far to serious.
This is why producers/writers/actors are hesitant to engage the ”fandom”.
Ashara D,
I agree with you
And all the hate for Sophie is uncalled for
She is actually a very good role model for younger girls
Look at her Instagram she does a lot of charity and a lot of good all the well spending her life having fun and working and being with friends
Compare that to the other garbage we have in holly wood that have over 40 million followers on insta for ex kardashian 20′ year olds
Like Jesus … These comments are so ridiculous
ghost of winterfell,
110%
I will pull Blackfish and say I am disappointed with this, and last, and every thread on this site in past month. Can mods do something to stop this madness in the name of our King. Before I came here to enjoy smart and funny discussions, but this is just, sigh, internet bullying without any joy of sharing interesting opinions, theories and predictions among fellow GOT fans.
Mihnea,
If those people are afraid or reluctant to face ‘the fandom’ they shouldn’t pursue a career in the showbusiness in the first place. You do that, you willingly become a public figure, you expose yourself to the world to be judged. I have little sympathy for actors. The perks that come with their job far outweigh the cons, but many sound like they’re making huge sacrifices for the good of humanity or something. Sports and showbusiness are areas where people are royally overpayed, worshipped (unwarranted) and entitled.
Icekhione,
And this is exactly why they don’t do it…
And she even threatened to kill D&D if ever they go that way! 🙂 She probably would find it so weird especially since she treats Kit as her big brother in real life. As I said here before, Sansa and Jon are soooo not each other’s type that’s why I don’t get why people think they’d be together in the end. I’d root for Sansa and Tyrion to get back together actually. He’s a good match for her. (Sorry, Dany-Tyrion shippers.) 🙂
I love how Conleth protested so strongly when Sophie said she wanted LF to be on the IT. Of course he wouldn’t want his character’s rival to triumph in the end! 🙂
Yaga,
But that would make that scene so bad. Imagine: the northerners were shouting “KITN! KITN!” and then him saying, “Hold on, people! Wait! We need to acknowledge that Sansa won this battle for us! She’s the one who sent a raven to LF so the Vale could rescue us!” I wonder if this is what you wanted to see in that scene?
*sigh* just read the comments none ever mention the word “woman” only you most
Wow this thread went to another level with some comments..
I pray the old gods and the new and the lamb god and the horse god and every god that lives that we get another news and this topic is under the rag and for something new and refreshing… I swear it by the Mother of Mountains and the Womb of the world that we need to have that ASAP ..
From the end of season 1/book 1, Sansa has been a prisoner, at the mercy of others for years. She has been at the mercy of enemies or people who viewed her as just a chess piece. She had no control and I understand she did what she had to in order to survive. She was raped and held as a sex slave by her serial rapist husband on the show. This was a result of playing Little Fingers “games.” Her escape with Theon and her rescue by Brienne inspired me to root for her character. I really try to put myself inside the head of a character in order to feel what they have experienced in a story and this also helps us to predict their future choices. This is why, after everything she has suffered, I can understand wanting to make my own choices and be in control of my own destiny. Her plea to Jon to get their home back for their family made me initially believe that Sansa was just happy to be reunited with Jon and for them to go back home. This is why, when I read Sophie’s interviews, I couldn’t reconcile an abuse victim being more concerned about receiving credit she deserves? Being brushed aside? Hah? What about getting your home back for your family. After being a sex slave at the hands of Ramsay and being stuck in the south Sansa is considering Little Fingers dream of him on Iron Throne and her by his side? Is this the same Sansa from the beginning of season 6 and the end of season 5? Is this the same Sansa who is trapped under the thumb of LIttle Finger in the book? So after being surrounded by enemies for years she is more interested in receiving credit instead of fighting for her family? I can understand Sansa being worried about Jon’s naivety in regards to LF and game players in general. I get that part. With GRRM a big theme is knowing who you are? So who is Sansa? An extention of LF and his manipulative petty games? Or is Sansa a Stark the lady of Winterfell who can take her mother’s place. I really can’t reconcile Sofie’s Sansa with book/TV Sansa. I hope we can get a better insight into this. Also, sansa will marry who GRRM and D and D want her to marry, not who Sofie decides.
Sam,
How did you come to the conclusion that Jon is not Sansa’s type but Tyrion is?
Jon is basically the knight that Sansa wanted minus the shining armour. And as has been outlined in the show she has apparently matured beyond believing in childish expectations of people.
Jon likes feisty redheads in pretty silk dresses. And based on their interactions in Season 6 Sansa has become pretty feisty.
I’m not saying they should or will be together. But I think they’re much closer to each other’s type than you suggest.
sophie is worse than sansa -_-
The hate on Sophie in this comment section is simply deplorable. She’s 20 and clearly a very carefree, playful girl who loves to fuck around. People hate Sansa so much they try finding malice in anything the actress does despite the fact it’s very clear she loves her cast mates.
Some of you must have been born as 60 year old conservatives if you’re seriously saying she’s shitty for sneaking in vodka at a fun fan event. Also Issac’s 17, don’t see anyone shitting on him over it? She’s having fun.
As for Sansa, it’s so painfully obvious that her entire storyline is built around embracing her heritage and making peace/working with her sister that anyone who thinks she’ll drop all character development to get outplayed by LF and killed, simply isn’t paying attention. D&D don’t want the fact that she’s going to kill LF to be super obvious so they decided to murk the waters to keep it a shocking surprise when she finally does.
Not going to name names, but certain people here should be seriously ashamed of themselves for how they talked about Sophie. I don’t think she has a single mean bone in her body.
From Sophie herself, mainly.
Totally agree. I even listed a few of them. Sophie, however, explicitly stated that she agrees with Sansa’s supposed stance that Jon is an incapable leader because he lacks her “intellect, knowledge, and experience.” Which is pretty much a load of crap.
No kidding. Tell that to D&D, some of the more fervent members of Team Sansa, and Miss Turner herself.
I acknowledge your perspective. Given the magnitude of the response her comments have drawn, from many of her own fans no less, I think in this case it’s safe to say that a substantial number of viewers read those comments very very differently.
Probably because that wasn’t the suggestion. She believes that Sansa is superior to Jon, full stop. She goes on to disparage Jon for his “morals” and questions whether they would actually “benefit anyone.” So yeah, there’s not much wiggle room here.
It isn’t. Nor is Jon being self-sufficient synonymous with him being flawless. Isn’t that a bit of a stretch? Self-sufficient people can and do ask for help, Jon included. Still doesn’t make him Sansa’s inferior. Which, again, is exactly what Turner is opining.
You won’t get any argument from me concerning the differences between leading and ruling. Jon’s abilities as KitN remain to be seen. But the heart of the matter, the very question Sophie was answering, was whether or not she believed that Sansa was more fit to lead than Jon was. She might have said, “They bring very different qualities to the table, and perhaps Sansa feels that some of her skills and abilities would have made her a worthy candidate to consider as well.” She opted instead for an inflammatory answer that basically boiled down to, “Sansa think’s he unfit to lead because he literally knows nothing.” To what appears to be the majority of observers, anyway.
As far as Dan Weiss’s clapping is concerned:
1. He was, hilariously, the only one.
2. Sansa’s his favorite character. See Shae for a good example of how far that will take a you when the audience by and large disagrees with what’s shown on screen.
3. If season 6 is any indication of what portraying Sansa’s superiority looks like, Jon fans really have nothing to worry about.
A dornish Tyrell,
Ha ha ha ! We might have to share the smelling salts… This is getting intense 🙂
Ashara D,
My pleasure. It will pass; eventually, everyone will take a deep breath and recover from the blast ^^
Jenny,
Dear gods, old and new ! A year… I might have to crawl into a corner and roll into a ball.
Dee Stark,
Comic Con is a serious event, with strict protocol and rigorous étiquette, as we all know. Decorum is what this prestigious institution is all about
http://www.brooklynvegan.com/files/img/music/comiccon/2011/125.jpg
Sean C.,
The producers are complicit ?!? Alert the authorities ! ^^
Bearded Onion,
Yep. Pretty much all the way.
elybe,
Wow! Thank you for this post. I concur. 🙂
What else is Sophie supposed to say about her distrust of Jon? The whole plot thread made no sense and was forced in there just to insert some drama into the north.
http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/fire_community.gif
Probably because Sophie is the only one making controversial statements.
The North is more open minded than the South, except for Dorne.
Lyanna Mormont and all of the Mormont women before her has acted as leaders within the North. Maege Mormont was one of Robb’s most trusted advisors. The North follows strength more than the South. Jon isn’t just any man. he is a bastard, so by accepting Jon as the King in the North, they are actually displaying some progressiveness.
Why would it ever be a good idea, to openly admit that Sansa lied to everyone?
The Mormonts, Hornwoods and the Mazin’s really placed themselves and their houses on the line for Jon and Sansa in what looked like a completely hopeless battle.
Why would these people be impressed that Sansa lied to them, and that she withheld vital information about the battle in which they were risking their lives?
Sansa basically treated her allies like her enemies. These people where her allies but she sent them into battle without all of the necessary information. How can the houses within the North actually trust Sansa?
At least they saw that Jon was willing to risk his own life in order to save the trueborn Stark heir. Right now they have no reason to trust Sansa.
They were actually more then willing to listen too Lyanna Mormont, a ten year girl.
dragonbringer,
Yes if you watch some of his recent projects you’ll see his hair in different stages between when filming wraps and July when he shaves it.
My favorite Conleth hair is when it’s grown in about a half inch. ? Watch “The Shore”
Sam,
Part of the problem is that the writers left too much to our imaginations last season, IMO. Did the Northerners know that Sansa was supposed to be the Lady of Winterfell??? Who sent the invitations??? What was the real reason Sansa didn’t tell Jon about her meeting with Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale??? Did she know they would come on time???
The storyline didn’t show her talent as a leader or a diplomat at all. The fact that the actress has to explain everything is weird. One sign of ambiguity is fine, but so many things, it’s confusing. We’ll see what happens next season.
They’re all so great. I really loved Liam and Conleth’s comments. Conleth’s hair is majestic haha! Also loved how everyone shouted “HODOR!” every time Kristian was given a moment. 🙂 Sophie is always so goofy and funny. Pretty hilarious that they were giggling and taking bottle cap shots (hope they didn’t get busted for that)! Really glad she answered the Jon/Sansa shipping question the way she did. Great panel! Wish I could go to one of these before the show ends!
The only thing worse than Sansa’s super fans are her haters.
I think after what she’s been through, Sansa now likes a man who’s cunning and good in playing the game. Tyrion is cunning and great in playing the game. Plus, he has a good heart. And, it would be good character development for her if she could now see beyond Tyrion’s physical attributes and just appreciate the kind of man that he is. I don’t think Jon will ever want to play the game of thrones.
As for Jon, yes, he does like feisty women. But I think it’s more of the Ygrette/Arya/even Meera type of feisty that he admires. I remember this vaguely but in the book he thought “a lady who combs her hair at the tower” was not his type. It’s been a while since I read the books so maybe I’m remembering this incorrectly. I think if Jon would meet someone who’s like his mother, Lady Lyanna Stark, he’d fall for her. That’s the kind of feisty that I thought he’d like.
It is amazing how well D and D are hiding that plot twist from S7 (LF’s death) with this “conflict” between Sansa and Jon.
Flayed Potatoes,
Lol, this board is on fire.
mau,
this
Sam,
Tyrion physical attributes are worse in the books because he lost his nose … It’s a lot to ask from Sansa, who has always been superficial. And she is so tall … at least in the case of Danny it isn’t so bad, but Sansa can easily carry Tyrion … She is taller than almost everybody in the show … Besides, Tyrion is a Lannister. I don’t want Sansa to end with Tyrion.
Bearded Onion,
THIS a thousand times
Dee Stark,
her behaviour on twitter especially xD
https://twitter.com/SophieT
Mag,
Yes, I understand what you mean. It’s more likely not going to happen, in the books or on the show. I just like the fact that Tyrion, on the show, was the only one who was really kind to her. Of course there’s Sandor, but I also don’t think he’s her type. What I’d hate to happen is her ending up with LF. Ick, no.
dragonbringer,
We should make sacrifice to the Black goat of Qohor.
mau,
Yes, LF is a dead man walking.
I think this is the main problem, the motivation or the whole premise behind this plot is somewhat lacking.
I really like the whole GoT cast, and it is always interesting when the actors provide some insight or their own perception of the motivation behind the characters. It is a big part of what makes interviews with actors interesting, the insight they provide on their characters.
I think Sophie’s interviews of the past few months are bit frustrating at times, because when I watch the show I see certain scenarios play out, but when I see or read some of Sophie’s interviews, it sometimes seems like the opposite of what happened on screen during the show. This has been happening a lot this season, and it is a bit strange at times.
I don’t know, I guess Sophie has perhaps decided to answer questions about her character in unexpected ways. Or in other words, I think she might just be having a bit of fun by trolling the fandom.
Flayed Potatoes,
I highly doubt they’d pit Sansa against her own family, and that obviously includes Jon. I definitely think they’ll be tension between them, mainly because Littlefinger is an asshole and will try to drive a wedge between them, but I DON’T think they’ll actually have her betray the Starks. God forbid, if that was the case, certainly she would die for her actions. Who would kill her? Also, what an insult that would be to Ned and Cat’s memories; having their eldest daughter betray their own blood.
Sophie and her comments on Jonsa:
1. She was drunk
2. She does protest too much
3. At this point in time last season Jon Snow was really really dead, no really, lol.
4. Sophie well known troll
5. Double Ds will do as Martin says, so if its writen so it will b done.
6. Who u gonna believe, sophie? Or your lying eyes?
All the denials mean to me they will b making out by episode 2 next season.
Sam,
Spoilers for those who haven’t read the books:
From the books, my impression of Ygritte is more of complex character. She is strong, but very sentimental. She is always singing , telling stories, and crying. Ygritte is kind of a mix of his sisters. (Not shipping here!)mau,
THIS so much. Littlefinger will die in season 7 for sure. As to how, I’d love to see Sansa realize that he betrayed her father and then kill him herself, but I certainly wouldn’t complain if Jon did the job. He’s been a thorn in the side of the Starks for too long.
You know reading the comments on here about Sophie and how she is the worst person in the world for talking supposedly talking shit about fictional characters in a fictional world I am reminded of that old SNL skit back in the 80’s with William Shatner talking to the Trekkies…
“Get a life will you people! It is just a tv show dammit it just a tv show”
Bearded Onion,
Totally agree, they went as far as to say she was some kind of alcoholic and inducing a minor to alcoholism ffs! Some people here really need to get a real life and stop talking shit, they’re ruining the experience for the rest of us
I am, of course, going to be a bit nitpicky here (I cannot fight my nature 😉 )
First, I think we should replace the word “leader” with “ruler” in Ms. Turner’s response. Unfortunately, more often than not, these two words are considered synonymous when they are everything but. Given what she later describes as the role of a “leader”, it seems pretty obvious to me she is actually defining the act of governing / ruling.
Furthermore, I took the liberty to bolden the possessive pronoun because I believe it to be the crux of the matter. Sansa (and Ms. Turner, it seems) believes Jon lacks her skills which, in her opinion, would be more useful to be a good ruler.
Not “the” skills or “any” skills. “Hers”.
She is not saying he does not have any intellect or any experience or any knowledge. Just that he does not have those her character possesses (and believes to be more appropriate to a ruler), which is very similar in substance if not in style, I believe, to what you later wrote would have been a better, less contentious answer :
If I were to encounter those Team Sansa members, I would be glad to do exactely as you suggest. However, they seem remarkably discreet and elusive in these parts 😉
Luckily for me, I am not looking for wiggle room ^^
Again, I fail to see what is so disparaging about those observations. The idea that Jon’s morals may not be of much use or benefit to anyone ? Is it so inflammatory ?
Ned’s morals were strong and rigorous. He was a good, decent man in many ways. Yet, it would take to torture logic within an inch of its life to assert that such moral rectitude served anyone’s interests, especially Ned’s.
Being “right” does not suffice, especially when ruling. One has to be able to implement this righteousness and put it to good use. And sometimes, to be able to do so, one has to use morally dubious ways.
Tommen would be a prime example of such dichotomy. By all accounts, he was a delightful young man with a good heart. Yet, because he was an unfathomably weak ruler, all his goodness was for nought and benefited absolutely no one.
I do apologise for reviving painful memories but…
Jon was right about allowing the Free Folk south of the Wall. Entirely, completely right. However, had Davos and the Red Woman not intervened, he would have remained dead, the Night’s Watch would have killed the Wildlings in Westeros and the White Walkers would have had a staggeringly decent shot at conquering the living.
By either failing to convince some of his men of the righteousness of his actions or failing to identify their discontent and take them out before they attacked him, Jon almost rendered his own “right” decision inefficient.
I would argue that “self-sufficient” and “asking for / needing help” are mutually exclusive. Either one can do everything on one’s own (self-sufficient) or one cannot (not self-sufficient). In this regard, a self-sufficient character is, for all intents and purposes, “perfect”. Without flaw or frailty.
If Jon needs help, then he is not self-sufficient. Not inferior but flawed, lacking. Which would imply that some possess characteristics, abilities or skills he does not have yet requires.
Well, it is the privilege of protagonists (etymologically, the “protagonist” is the “first to suffer, to experience pain”; in regards to GOT, the first characters whose pain was made obvious to us, viewers, were Jon, Daenerys and Tyrion) to be the first and main beneficiaries of the audience’s empathy. By ricochet, it also turns all the characters who stand in the way of said protagonists into antipathy magnets, regardless of the relative merits of their causes. Disagreeing or, crime of all crimes, being in conflict with a protagonist rarely paves the road to popularity. ^^
mau,
If they truly are trying to hide this, it is a waste of time. This demise has been in the cards since the first few chapters of the first book and the first couple of episodes of season 1 🙂
I just wish they waited until season 8. I would love to see Littlefinger’s reaction to a White Walker. ^^
For sure. D&D have played their cards pretty well. You’ll figure it’ll be almost impossible to convince this many people that Sansa might not kill LF but here we are.
It’s going to be a terrible 10 months, I fucking love Sansa and she’s my fav alongside Arya but holy shit I just want all this Sansa talk to stop until the next season is out. It’s annoying and the debate always turns toxic in the end.
I honestly don’t see LF making it past the 2nd half of S7. Sansa needs to evolve without him now and he’s had a good run.
Take a deep breath and a step back, everyone.
So here’s the deal:
People are allowed to criticize Sophie Turner (and D&D or anyone else on that stage). She’s a grown woman now, she’s not 13 years old, and as such she’s accountable for her words and actions. If she says something controversial, people may react.
We do have an open commenting policy. As long as the commenter is not attacking another commenter with personal insults, being extremely vulgar or using racial/misogynistic slurs which doesn’t seem to be the case here, the comments are permitted. Even if they personally piss you off. You usually can’t argue someone into not disliking an actor that you like.
That said, none of you seem to be having fun with this conversation anymore or making any progress in the discussion so you should probably just move on to another topic. Civility has always been the main rule. Both sides here seem to have forgotten it. Respect each other’s opinions or find a new topic.
Rob,
Sophie and the actors around her looked very disgusted by the idea of a romance between Jon and Sansa … but the question should have considered a potential political marriage to solve the rivalry between them once they know they are only cousins. Sophie said herself Jon should be King and Sansa should be Queen. That is impossible unless they marry. Sansa didn’t love neither Tyrion nor Ramsay, but she had to marry them. If Jon marries Danny, Sansa would loose her chance to be Queen. If she really is power hungry, she would do it.
I always like the Ashford Theory based on the Dunk and Egg series. There is an interesting coincidence between the champions of Lady Ashford and Sansa’s suitors (Baratheon, Tyrell, Lannister, Hardying and Targaryen) … the theory believes Sansa will have a relationship with a Targaryen or false Targaryen.
^this!!
Sam,
I understand your line of thinking. Personally though I’m more of a believer that opposites attract.
Who better for somebody who wants to wrap people around their little finger (no pun intended) to be attracted to than somebody who is a bit naive but has power and influence? That’s what Littlefinger’s after in Sansa.
I think Sansa’s motivation would be more genuine but I think she would be attracted to the same things, especially after what she’s been through. If she really believes she’s playing the game of thrones then she would want a husband who has the strength and the power to protect her, or for her to utilize, but who’s less likely to dominate or manipulate her.
When it comes to Jon I think he would want someone who can fend for herself but who won’t leave him feeling redundant. Ygritte was more outgoing and sure of herself than he is and liked to tease and challenge him. But she was attracted to his naivety, bravery and loyalty.
I think Jon wants somebody confident who will challenge him, but who still appreciates the noble and manly standards that he holds himself to. I think Sansa is less of the “lady who combs her hair at the tower” type these days, she wants to have more say and more control, but there’d undoubtedly be room for Jon to be who he expects to be in the relationship.
Anyway, this is all just my opinion, of course. We’ve all got different opinions on what the characters might expect from each other and how we interpret their relationships. But I think they’re far closer to each other’s type than they once were. Regardless, that’s not to say anything will come of it.
ACME,
It is not waste of time becasuse so many fans now believe that Sansa will turn on Jon.
http://www.imdb.com/comic-con/2016-most-popular-characters/ls063117351?pf_rd_m=A2FGELUUNOQJNL&pf_rd_p=2559943922&pf_rd_r=0QPJRKSP1ZHPJCH60XHC&pf_rd_s=center-9&pf_rd_t=15061&pf_rd_i=homepage&ref_=hm_ccn_popc_sm
Daenerys is the 2nd most popular character on IMDB. Daario is 5th.
mau,
This is new is Jon Snow alive. I applaud D&D, this is Littlefinger level manipulation of fandom.
House Adder,
Ha ha ha!! Awesome!
ACME,
lol, gonna make me comb through two posts, are ya? Alrighty, then.
I won’t really dwell on this too much since we’ve been advised to move on. We’re not going to come to an agreement on the semantics, I don’t see either of us changing the other’s mind concerning the intended meaning behind Sophie’s comments, and that’s perfectly okay. I’m not really interested in picking apart her statements on a microscopic level. We can agree to disagree.
Regarding self-sufficiency, I didn’t say that all individuals who are self-sufficient exhibit this trait across all circumstances. You can still describe an individual as self-sufficient even if they do not display that trait in all areas of their life, just as you can still describe someone as generally confident even if they occasionally feel insecure. In any case, this is probably a moot point now.
L,
Also, I would point out that Jon only asked the Wildlings to fight with him after Ramsey’s letter made a direct threat to their survival, along with the Starks.
As far as Sansa goes, her character’s trajectory has been downward since her reunion with Jon and her rebuke of LF at Molestown. Her treatment of the Northern Lords was somewhat haughty, she believed they would sacrifice anything for her family, but she really has shown no interest whatsoever in their welfare. I understood some of her stranger actions because she wanted to survive, and had been through such an ordeal. And sometimes Jon’s bravery and self-sacrifice can be dangerous to his friends… but there is much more at stake than the Stark family’s reinstatement at WF. And that is what Jon cares about, the survival of everyone, including her. Sansa is welcome to take power just like all of the other strong women on the show, but it’s clear she has some growing to do first.
In the end, I’m sure this tension is leading up to Sansa having to turn the tables on Littlefinger. Will she or won’t she?
Boudica,
But why should it matter? She isn’t a writer. The writers have no control over what the actors / actresses say about their characters. She’s a 20 year old party girl who probably doesn’t spend that much time deeply analyzing her character. Also, from everything I’ve seen from her, she seems like a phenomenal person who treats the fans very well.
Not sure about trolling, it’s possible that there could be some defiance in her responses (that crossed my mind while watching). But again, she is 20 and probably reads all of the awful things that are said about her and gets frustrated.
I think the drinking thing is troubling. Not because I found it offensive or even give a shit if someone shows up drunk to comic con. But she could be self medicating. Or she could have everything under complete control and just be having a good time. Who knows?
I think the bottom line is people need to lay off her and the other young actors / actresses in the cast.
Wait…so next years Comic Con will be here before Season 7 lol? Yikes!!
That’s sad. I was the social rep for my students’ union at university for a lot of events, so I got to deal with a lot of drunk people that age who thought they were pretty funny and cool. Generally the only ones who agreed were also completely sloshed. I can imagine how ‘chill’ people must have found it. It’s a lot of money to attend these events and see these people. But hey I’m apparently over the hill and in my 30s. 😉
Wow. I’ve never gotten through over 300 comments so quickly. I would guess that’s because it got to a point I just said, “fuck it,” and scrolled to the bottom. I’m sure I missed a few great comments from people I enjoy, and maybe even some people with whom I’m not familiar, but FFS.
Moving on…
ACME
I quite enjoyed the panel, too. It was fun and light-hearted, and that’s just fine by me.
HotPinkLipstick
Great to see you!!! 🙂
You enjoy NCW, and I’ll enjoy Luke Roberts (Ser Arthur Dayne). If you ever wanna trade off (it would only be a temporary trade, mind you), just let me know.
Something I did find informative about the panel was toward the beginning when there was a discussion about the history from which they drew for the show (and from which GRRM drew from the books). Everyone always talks about how it’s based on the medieval period. I not only appreciated them pointing out, yes, inspiration is drawn from that time period, but it’s fantasy, so they’re not constrained by having to stick to history. That seems like it shouldn’t have to be spelled out, but too often I see “well, it’s based on the medieval period, so they need to stick to “a,b,and c.” No, they don’t. It’s fantasy. Moreover, I found it quite interesting D or D, I can’t remember which, saying GRRM also drew inspiration from the Mongols and Native Americans, and that the story wasn’t inspired from just one part of the world.
So, all those who have insisted over the years this or that doesn’t work because it isn’t representative of medieval Europe (putting aside the whole, um, it’s fantasy, not history) seem to have been basing their arguments on incomplete information.
Damn, Faye Marsay is so beautiful.
If i had the chance i would date her without hesitating :D.
Holy Sh*t!! Daario is the 5th most popular character of 2016?!!
I think LF is a more important character than Sansa. I see him surviving till the very end as he finally realizes that all his game playing is useless against the WW. He’s also much smarter than Sansa. If Sansa does take him down, then it will be at very end and I see her going down with him.
Littefinger IS Sansa’s story in the books. On the show, we may get something different since they seem to like making up new stories for Sansa and inserting her into the plots of other characters.
Daario is #6…he’s on page 5, but ranked 6.
Maybe this way of thinking comes across in her acting, which is one of the reasons she is a divisive character. Also that LF should end up on the Iron Throne.
Also, didn’t filming for Season 6 end in December? Then the season premiered roughly four months later. So if we follow that, then filming for Season 7 will finish in February. Four months later is June.
Summer in 2017 begins on June 21.
And basically it’s pretty much August already. Which will go by fast as the last full month of summer, and we will have casting info hopefully.
Next season is really right around the corner. ?
Meanriah,
I agree, it wasn’t very professional. I understand they wanted to have a bit of fun but some of Sophie’s comments came off as sloppy. If you compare her composure to Nathalie she came off as a unprofessional. I’m sure she is a sweet/fun girl but it had me disappointment because it felt like she took it lightly. Many fans were probably looking forward to that panel. Also, I did not care for her comment that Jon was not fit to lead, her character Sansa has no idea how to rule and does not have any good advisors to guide her (other than Littlefinger, who is the absolute worst). If she tries to take over against Jon I have a feeling that she will lose and be her own undoing.
Phoenix_from_Ice,
Yeah, just like they gave us a Lannister to love (Tyrion), maybe they’re giving us a Stark to hate :/ Hopefully Sansa’s character doesn’t turn on her family. Please writers! Don’t pull that crap!
BranTheBlessed,
I never noticed she does this….come to think about it none of the other cast members talk ill of their co-workers characters. Caulk it up to her being young I guess
Yes, Whent shield is there, but I don’t think it means much. It could very well be the one made for Season 1, used in the scene where Catelyn has Tyrion arrested. One of the guys at the inn was a Whent and had a shield with bats painted on it.
MeeraReed,
I don’t think they’ll premier before July 4th. That’s a major major holiday and the 4th is on a Tuesday, meaning most people will have a long weekend. They might begin the week after.
So, agree with that
That was very fun to watch, thank you guys! 🙂
I haven’t read all the comments, but OK, I see that things have heated up a bit 😀
I’m not going to judge Sophie for what she said, she has the right to have and express whatever opinion and view of her character or any other character! (and there’s perhaps a chance, that she had to express these views following some production line).
That said, I disagree with her view.
Jon has proved himself a worthy leader and warrior. He’s decent, he’s goodhearted, intelligent, loyal; he’s managed to have all these people from totally different backgrounds to follow him, because they see all that in him. Even our amazing little Lady Lyanna Mormont, who was very negative at the start, becomes the fan that speaks up in Jon’s favour and announces him her King.
That shows that despite the faults – yes, it wasn’t wise to run for Rickon and fall into that trap, but it was thoroughly human and natural to do so, instead of just watching his little brother die, as Sansa would do in his place – or should I say on account of those faults, that his qualities as a human being can be recognised. These flaws that show how deeply human he is and how willing he is to give his life, without a second thought, for his kin – and extended kin, the people of the North, and all the people of Westeros and that’s what made him the King in the North.
He’s also proved the only one with some common sense and forethought, concerning the biggest threat of all, the WW. He’s the only one that thought the wildlings must be saved -not only on a human level – but also because they would add to the enemy’s numbers, as they would have been risen as WW. He’s the one that send Sam to Citadel to find anything that will help humans for the Great War. He’s the only one who thought about the greater good.
Sansa’s too small in this regard – or so she has shown so far. She was selfish and narrow- minded as a girl; she’s still narrow- minded and selfish as a woman in some ways.
The thing that changed was that she became more of a survivalist – and of course I mean that in a good sense, I’m glad she did and very happy she survived; Sansa’s become more of a politician and scheamer, if you will. But that doesn’t make her more worthy than Jon, or Bran or Arya, for that matter. She’s not a leader, she can’t inspire people to follow her. She’s not a warrior either. She’s not smarter than the others. She definitely doesn’t see the big picture. She’s not ‘hero’ material.
So, what can she be? I think she could make an excellent ‘Hand’ of the King and that would be a good way to use her knowledge of politics.
I’m a Stark fan – obviously- and I love all the (remaining) family members/characters, but if I had to choose between Jon and Sansa I would clearly choose Jon.
I must also say thay if, after all that she’s seen and been through, her problem next season is who’s the King and who gets public recognition so she forgets who LF is and sides him just for personal ambition against her own brother, I will be really, terribly, dissapointed in her character’s arc – I really do expect much more from her; to show how all that she has been through finally proves useful; I like to speculate that she manages to take LF out, turning his scheaming against him and protecting Jon and her House.
That’s my personal view of course 🙂
I really hope that we will not have such a matter in the North, especially as we are going towards the end game, and there are just SO much more important things to unfold! (And also I really can’t go through another Stark(aryen) related disaster, please just leave Jon, the Starks and their companions alone, D&D!!! )
I watched the complete video and didn’t see them nodding in agreement. Sophie was drunk and really didn’t make a good impression. I like Shopie but she did not look good at all on the panel. Shame on D&D for letting someone who isn’t legally old enough to drink to come out plastered and then brag about it.
Meanriah,
I didn’t know this was happening (tho I did hear about the pre panel vodka shots If I was there, I’d have felt the same way. Im not against drinking and having fun But drinking at a panel like that is not fair to the fans, and certainly not professional. I’d expect actors to know better than to do that.
Tarthbane,
This too.
Interesting watching the panel – I didn’t enjoy it as much as I’ve had before, but I loved the individual interviews from the other post Actors much more relaxed, with really good questions. But thats just me
SiriuslyStark,
I wholeheartedly agree. Well put.
I don’t think it’ll premiere until after the 4th of July. I’m going to go with an August premiere.
MiaMoon,
The legal in the UK is 16 I believe.
RG,
The problem stems mainly from the fact that the writers (and Sophie) are evidently extremely off base about ( at least book) Sansa and her motivations. Either that or they’ve changed her into someone totally different. Sansa is essentially the anti Cersei and there are several ways GRRM makes this clear throughout the books. She’s not ambitious, she’s not cunning (though she is increasingly observant and intelligent), she loves being a woman and actually wants to excel in a woman’s role (one of the few female characters in the series like that). All Sansa wants is to be truly loved by a man who loves her simply for herself, to be with her family and to return to her home. She has a naturally gentle and softhearted temperament and is disturbed by violence. The show has somehow morphed that into her being Cersei 2.0? Maybe that isn’t a “strong woman” to them? Basically, I do really enjoy the show but there are a few characters who’ve they’ve changed too much (in my opinion) and therefore have lost the unique message that character brings to the story. My number one example of that is with Sansa in the show.
ForestLight,
The show simply fast-forward her character, I have little doubt she will get in more or less the same place in the books.
She will go North with the Vale, and she will confront/outplay LF, this has been set-up for a long time. Martin likes to take his time and detail exactly, how/why a character changes, the show doesn’t/or can’t and does the ”jump” much faster, in the books it can be 3-5 events that make the character ”grow/”change”, the show likes to do it with 1 ”big” event.
I honestly think people will be suprised at how similar the stories will end up being.
For me Jon’s election as LC is a perfect example, Martin showed minor characters, for world-building reasons and inner politics of the NW.
The show made this moment entirely about Jon and Sam speaking for him, and Aemon trusting Jon and casting the deciding vote.
clouddragon,
She wasn’t in the UK. By the way I really don’t care if she drinks but being a drunk in front of fans would waited overnight to get into the panel is disrespectful to say the least.
I think it is 18 but she is in CA where it is 21. But really the problem I have is that she should not be drunk while on the panel. That just makes her look foolish. By the way I loved your post talking about the books vs the show.
No it’s 18 🙂
Mihnea,
Tbh I don’t think book! Sansa will ever be the type to smirk after having watched someone be eaten by dogs. That would involve some extremely drastic shifts in character for only two more books. The show’s portrayal of her character is, at this point, totally OOC for me. I don’t doubt that they will hit major plot points for her book arc but in terms of character I really feel like they’re doing their own thing…and that’s fine…there are people that prefer the show! Sansa to the book version…but as a book fan I have to admit I am a bit disappointed with the show’s decisions where she’s concerned. I like what book! Sansa stands for and the show version kinda stands for the opposite at the moment. But we’ll see how it develops…
ForestLight,
Book! Sansa is letting Littlefinger poison SweetRobin little by little. She knows is happening and does nothing to stop it so I’m not sure that Sansa is such sweet dove as you seem to think she is. Robin is a brat and annoying as hell but he’s still a kid.
I interviewed Sophie Turner in Madrid. http://lossietereinos.com/entrevista-de-los-siete-reinos-a-sophie-turner-sansa-tiene-celos-de-jon/
She was not drunk at all (hehe) and thought and said exactly the same about Jon: he shouldn’t rule WF, she is jealous of him, she thinks Sansa deserves more than she got, Sophie’d hate to have a relationship with Jon (she said that in a fan interviews, stating also that Kit was a bit small in laughs)
Oh if she finds Jon small (well, he is indeed small 🙂 ) and therefore not a fit for Sansa then there goes my wish of having Sansa and Tyrion ending up together haha!
I have a feeling Sophie would really hate to have any kind of love scene with Kit. 🙂
She doesn’t know about that, going by her preview chapter for TWOW, where she still hopes he’ll live to adulthood.
ForestLight,
You made great points. As for me, I’ve always thought Sansa’s story is about survival – adapting to her environment and the people around her to survive (to the point of having to pretend that she’s someone else, or keeping mum about her Aunt Lysa’s death, or turning a blind eye to Sweetrobin’s poisoning). Her main focus is to survive and there’s nothing wrong with that! That doesn’t make her a weak female character! In fact, that’s what makes me root for her. Every time she escaped danger (as she’s becoming wiser and cunning about it), I was happy for her.
The problem with how the show is handling her character is that they seem to want her to jump immediately to being a leader/ruler (well, based on the interviews). I believe the notion that Sansa has the intellect, knowledge, and experience to lead/rule the north is making people scratch their heads because there was nothing in the books and the past seasons to suggest that. If there is, then I must have missed it. If this were Dany, then yes. Her whole arc has been about preparing her to be a leader and a ruler, making mistakes along the way but becoming more and more adept at being a leader/ruler. The same cannot be said about Sansa though. Her arc is totally different from Dany’s. I hope Sansa’s fans understand that this is what’s making most people flabbergasted about Sophie’s statements. To suggest that she’s better equipped than Jon to lead/rule is a bit of a stretch. I’m a Jon fan but I also love Sansa (and all the Starks for that matter) so I’m really hoping the show would handle this brewing conflict between the siblings in a manner that won’t make them act OOC.
Now, all of these debates would have been avoided if the writers/actors just focused on the fact that Sansa has the rightful claim to WF/north and that’s her bone of contention. It this were the case, I’d totally understand her feeling upset about the whole KitN situation. But no, they seem to be making it about Sansa not being acknowledged for “winning the battle” and “being the one with the intellect and experience to lead the north” so as to push this “girl power” idea. That’s my problem about this whole thing. Girl power is not just about leading, ruling, killing, manipulating, or playing the game!
Sam,
Pfft my initial reaction is I think it’s kind of rude to comment on that publicly about a co-star. She’s not just talking the character Jon but also Kit. Remember she called out body shaming before.If shoe were on other foot and Kit said Sansa/Sophie is too tall as being a reason he wouldn’t want Jon to be with her in that way I wonder if some would see it tacky. Probably not as being tall is seen as a positive but for many men having their size/short height pointed out is a negative. But who knows, their friendship might be the kind where they openly tease each other and it’s all good.
Sean C.,
I had assumed that was her way of shielding herself from having to face the truth. Just like how she is protecting herself by not admitting to herself the kind of monster LF is, even though she knows it deep down. Similarly, she knows LF is poisoning Robin but she does not want to confront it. This was how I had read it.
Sam,
Yup, I agree. The TV series seems to be partly affected by our 21st century opinions, so these characters have to coform to our modern ideas of what makes for a strong woman. There can be many ways for a woman to be strong and being a leader is not the only way. And in Sansa’s case, they are pushing her to be a leader by skipping over the required learning curve.
ygritte,
Yeah, maybe they do have this bro-sis rivalry going on even in real life. 🙂 One moment she’s saying she’s proud of him (her big bro) for getting an Emmy and then the next she’s making fun of his height and sharing the story that he farts a lot. LOL. But you’re right. If it’s the other way around and Kit said something like Sansa’s too fat or something like that, people would surely riot!
I like how you put it. 🙂 Yup!
I just had a vision of Kit saying: “Well, Sansa is kinda big for Jon, you know? And Sophie’s nice, but she has a weird habit of licking people’s faces that’s kinda gross….” ?
*instant villagers with pitchforks*
Pigeon,
Haha! I can totally imagine the “villagers with pitchforks” scenario! 🙂
Sean C.,
Are we sure she truly doesn’t know? She has a conversation with Maester Colemon where he basically tells her that drugging Robert with sweetmilk so often is dangerous and she basically tells him to go ahead and take it up with Littlefinger but that in the meantime he should drug him so more. Then she thinks to herself that the Maester “cares only for the boy” while “Father and I have larger concerns. That suggests she understands that Robin’s needs are to be discarded to safeguard their position. Later in the same chapter Littlefinger talks about Robin’s future demise and how that will pave the way for Sansa to take both the Vale and the North. Sansa would have to be grotesquely naive, at that point in her arc, not to know what Baelish’s intentions are with poor odious Robin.
ForestLight,
If she went trough the things Sansa went in the show she would.
Right now she would most likely cry like a 10 year old, just like Sansa would have done in S4.
Very happy we share the same view, thank you 🙂
That!! 🙂 As for the girl power idea, just to say that it’s been over- stated. Girl power can exist in so many ways because each person has a different character, like in real life. We’re not all meant to be leaders, or warriors or whatever, in the same way for example that Sam wasn’t meant to be a soldier, but a very wise Maester.
In exactly the same way some women in this story are meant to be warriors, others to be politicians, others leaders and etc.
That doesn’t diminish or weaken some characters over others: diversity is essential whether in the show or in the real world! And ruling over others, is definitely not the ultimate or only showcase of girl power -take Gilly for example. The fierce mommy, that faced her mad father, WW and whatever crazy thing, to save her baby. Τhe girl that defended Sam standing up to his deranged father.
One may say that these are small things. I think not. Every act and every decision( no matter how small it may seem) anyone makes in this story, as we have seen, matters; it has a consequence on the others and on the future, for better or worse.
And what Sansa decides to do next with her acquired skills will have a huge impact on the future and how the story unfolds,: that’s (girl) power too.
Unfortunately, the exact same description could apply to Robb yet his run as king was disastrous. The Young Wolf was a tremendous general and a remarkable leader (and an all-around great guy) but his performance as a ruler was subpar, at best.
The writers and director have done everything in their power to make the KitN scene in 6.10 as similar as possible to its counterpart back in season one :
– Northern lord/lady with a ‘tude (and who used to be less than enthusiastic about the Stark heir’s leadership) makes an impassionate speech about the North, loyalty, the importance of strength and proclaims KitN;
– newly annointed KitN is taken by surprise and hesitant;
– brief look of reassurance to a redhaired woman at his left;
– lords shout KitN repeatedly.
To emphasise the “sameness” between Robb and Jon, the lords even add two arguments which we know to be false :
– like Robb, he is Ned Stark’s son (R+L = J disagrees ^^)
– in the name of Robb, he avenged the Red Wedding (he did not; Tyrion, Ramsay and Arya killed the culprits of this massacre, even though only one of them did it for this very reason)
We can even contrast it all with the previous episode’s scene in which Tormund and Davos revisit their past blind allegiances with a critical perspective :
We end up with a Jon whose whole appeal resides in his ability to lead without wanting to rule being proclaimed king for all the wrong reasons by the same people who cursed his brother with a crown he was ill-equiped to bear.
Let us just say that the foreshadowing is strong with this one 🙂
Or send someone else, any other soldier, to attempt to pick up Rickon…
I do apologise for reviving this decidedly dead horse to beat it some more however the issue is not that Jon tried to save Rickon but the manner in which he did it.
The only reason why Davos precipitated the charge, thereby blowing every last bit of preparation and strategy he and Jon had devised to smithereens, was because the White Wolf stood in the middle of the battlefield, alone, facing their adversary’s cavalry. Had Jon been a mere foot soldier, I would assume Davos never would have sent their army to quasi-certain death to rescue him. But he is not a foot soldier; he is the general and generals are not to be left to be massacred in the open air in front of the men who pledged to fight for them. That is supremely bad for moral… and PR.
So Davos charged and we all know how that could have ended, were it not for the eagle-sigiled Vale (eagles : fantasy’s favourite deus ex machinae 🙂 )
Jon being willing to die for his kin is a remarkable and honourable trait, of that there is no doubt. Him being amongst his men and fighting alongside them is heroic and should be praised to the high heavens, all seven of them. Nevertheless his status, both as a leader and a ruler, makes it so that any course of action he undertakes in regards to his own safety has a ripple effect on that of his lieges. Forgetting this is quite problematic.
Sam,
I would argue that Jon’s and Daenerys’s respective storylines and arcs have more to do with Azor Ahai / The Prince that was Promised than with “ruling”.
AA and TPtwP, if the prophecies are to be believed, are kings in the same way the biblical messiah is supposed to be a king (literally, this is the meaning of the word “messiah”). They are not meant to wear crowns and govern over lands like normal monarchs. They were born with a clear purpose, a unique goal : to lead mankind in its war against its greatest threat. Their very existences are conditionned by it and not much, if anything at all, is prophetised about their lives “post-mission accomplished”…
What happened to the first AA after he defeated the Others ? Did he live happily ever after, settling disputes between pesky lords like a normal king ? What is TPtwP supposed to do once the Long Night is over ? Oversee the taxation system in Westeros ?
AA and TPtwP are saviors, not rulers, I believe.
ACME:
Your reasoning makes sense, ACME 🙂
As I’ve mentioned before, Jon is by no means perfect, and he has made mistakes. But keep in mind, he wasn’t raised to be a Lord, a King or to command anyone, in contrast to Robb.
Until ep 9, Jon – in his own eyes – is just a bastard, that probably doesn’t deserve to be alive, or doesn’t wish to be alive, that sees every decision he made in the past to be wrong, that he believes he’s not worthy to lead anyone; a man that is lost.
He doesn’t realize he is the general, nor that his life matters. He finds himself and his will to live, that moment he manages to rise above the pile of bodies that are crashing him and takes that breath. To my view, that’s when Jon actually returns to the land of the living: on ep 9. Until then, he’s lost somewhere in between.
On the Robb/Jon matter: there are as you say, indeed many similarities. But there are some very major differences too.
Robb’s been proclaimed King more by ‘birthright’ and circumstance, than by his own virtue. And while he was in the middle of a war.
Jon was proclaimed King, after the North was totally taken apart by Robb’s war, after the rest of the family killed or scattered in Westeros; after he fought and strived, after he made the hard choices time and again; after he died, betrayed by his own friends, and came back; he’s earned this place by virtue – and timing, doing what’s right and proving himself for 6 seasons. Whereas Robb almost automatically was proclaimed King just by winning a battle and of course by birthright, being the Head of Starks, after his father was killed.
Robb was over- confident, with no real experience, and he welcomed the role of King/Lord/General -even if seemingly hesitant- because he was raised to be a Lord. And he put his love above his duty; where Jon, sacrificed that.
Jon is humble and he never cared/asked for positions of power (he was practically thrown at it by others) and he has experienced the horrors of war: he doesn’t want to fight and sacrifice any lives, unless to protect his family, or the mankind from the WW. In contrast to Robb, who was fighting for something totally different.
So, they are different people, with different backgrounds, different motives, different starting points and different expectations and goals and proclaimed Kings under very different circumstances.
The analogy, to my view, ends to the similarity that they were both proclaimed King in the North and in the external similarities of the production.
That said, the fact that the production made sure we get that similarity feeling, is important: King and Queen doesn’t work very well when you’re on GoT! But that is not always so because someone is not good at it, but because this a power struggle, and someone’s always looking to take you out. In our case, the LF/Sansa threat.
The fact that Jon has Stark blood doesn’t change by the R+L confirmed – he’s not Ned’s son, but nonetheless he’s a Stark. What changes is that, now he has a claim to the Iron Throne too. But considering what we know of Jon, even if he found out about that, he wouldn’t be interested – and not only because he never seeked power; even while he knows nothing, he does know one thing: the dead are coming and when they do, the Iron Throne, titles, and whatever else in the human world, will mean nothing.
Knowing about his parentage though, would have a great impact on his character’s development. Knowing his roots, and how he came into the world, how people sacrificed themselves to keep him alive – that must change his viewpoint, and help him do whatever he’s destined to do.
‘AA and TPtwP are saviors, not rulers, I believe’
Totally agree 🙂
You’re most likely right. I just mentioned Dany to make a point that she’s an example of someone who could rightfully claim (at this point of the story) to have the knowledge and experience to lead/rule (compared to Sansa). As to whether Dany will end up the one ruling Westeros, I’m also not sure. I’ve always imagined her as the TPTWP and not the one sitting on the IT at the end. And wouldn’t it be great if the “prince” was a woman? 🙂
I think they wrote it like that (having Jon frantically ride towards Rickon) to make for great TV (the same way Sophie explained why Sansa didn’t tell Jon about the Vale). 🙂 I have a feeling that scene (with Rickon) won’t happen in the book. Anyway, it was an “in the heat of the moment” moment and shouting an order to his men to ride towards his brother won’t make good TV. 🙂 As for Davos’ order to charge, it was the second order he made that was the grave mistake. That part of their cavalry was supposed to just wait and not charge but he gave the order and that’s when Ramsay ordered his men to surround the Stark army.
Well, as they say, history repeats itself. In fact, D&D pointed out the similarities between the 2 KitN scenes in one of the HBO videos. One of them also noted that the first one didn’t end up well and hence, we might have to worry about Jon (not the exact words). However, it’s also possible this KitN stint is a means for Jon to learn how to rule/lead, by learning from his father/brother’s mistakes as well as his own mistakes.
Having said all these, who then is fit to rule? The past 4 kings (mad king, Robert, Joffrey, Tommen) were not fit to rule. The present queen certainly isn’t. So who is? Currently (setting aside the AA/TPTWP stuff), I’d say Dany + Tyrion as Hand present the strongest ruling tandem.
SiriuslyStark,
Love your post! 🙂
Jon being thrown at “it” (LC post, the KitN) without him seeking it is what makes me think he’ll eventually be thrown at IT (the Iron Throne). 🙂
Thank you Sam! 🙂
LOL! I fear the same thing and IT would me extremely nervous about his health. IT makes me nervous about Dany too. IT makes me nervous in general!! :/ Apparently the characters won’t take my warnings when I yell at the TV. Shame! 😀
SiriuslyStark,
They know nothing! LOL 😀
SiriuslyStark,
I wholeheartedly agree with you on many points 🙂
However, most of the differences we, the audience, can identify between Robb and Jon are unknown to the Northern lords and did not factor in their decision to proclaim Jon as KitN.
To the best of our understanding, the Wall and the Night’s Watch are somewhat isolated from the rest of Westeros (the fact that the Citadel was unaware of Lord Commander Mormont’s death was rather telling in this regard). Even the North is not that well-informed of the Crows’ day-to-day, intricate dynamics and missions. The lords probably receive a raven whenever a new Lord Commander is elected or when something of this kind of administrative relevance occurs but for the rest…
As far as we can extrapolate, what do the Northern lords know or think they know about Jon ? That he is Ned’s bastard son, that he joigned the Night’s Watch, that he was elected Lord Commander, that he let the Wildlings cross the Wall (I doubt they are aware he did it due to the magnitude of the White Walkers’ threat; otherwise the Umbers would probably have thought twice before betraying the Starks as a result of this decision), that he deserted the Night’s Watch (I cannot quite imagine they know he died and was resurrected, that would surely raise questions 🙂 ), that he led the troops in the Battle of the Bastards and that he avenged the Red Wedding. That is about it.
To us, viewers, Jon’s coronation does come as the result of six years of dedication, as the celebration of his virtues. Most if not all of which are, to the best of my knowledge and to the extent of what has been communicated on the show, completely unknown to the Northern lords.
They did not proclaim Jon because he is Jon; they elected him because, to them, he is Robb 2.0 : Ned Stark’s son come to avenge his unjustly murdered predecessor.
However, both those premices are erroneous.
Jon is only a Stark on his mother’s side which, in the overwhelming majority of Westerosi lands (to the exclusion of Bear Island and Dorne, to a certain degree) means nothing. Matrilinear filiation has not been shown to matter in the characters’ universe, so far : SweetRobyn is no more a Tully than Jon is a Stark. Had Lyanna Mormont said “he has Stark blood”, there would be some wiggle room, I imagine; but she argued Jon had “Ned Stark’s blood”… In reality, at “best”, he is a Targaryen bastard; at “worst”, he is a Targaryen which, considering the fact that the last Targaryen king massacred both a Warden of the North and his heir (Rickard and Brandon), is hardly a great selling point north of the Neck.
Furthermore, Jon did not avenge the Red Wedding. It was never his intention : he wanted to save his baby brother, to hurt the man who hurt his sister and to get his home back. Robb’s death and the North’s defeat never factored in his calculations.
The Northern lords’ whole justification for choosing Jon borders on a case of mistaken identity. It does not make Jon unworthy, of course, but it seriously complicates the future of his reign. The lords want Jon to fulfill a role that is not his, neither legally nor symbolically, in very much the same way they forced a crown on Robb’s head.
For, even though the Young Wolf was trained to become a Warden of the North, he never expected to become KitN, a title that had not been used for three centuries. Warden, king, this is a completely different ball of wax ! 🙂
A Warden of the North derives his authority from the man above him, namely the King. As long as the monarch supports his Warden, said Warden stays in power. If he no longer does, he executes him and replaces him with another (as happened to Ned).
Conversely, the king (or the Lord Commander, for that matter) derives his authority from the men below him. A ruler must not only gain the support of his lieges but also, and above all, retain it, all the time, at all costs. Otherwise, he suffers a mutiny and is deposed, usually killed.
Like Robb at the Red Wedding. Like Jon in the courtyard of Castle Black. “The Lannisters send their regards”, “for the watch” : in both cases, the “king” lost his lieges’ trust and suffered the deadly consequences.
Hopefully for Jon, he learnt from his failed experience as a ruler of the Night’s Watch and can now do better. However, the amount and nature of foreshadowing does not seem to bode that well.
ACME,
It may be a foreshadowing or it may also be a way to illustrate how different Jon’s fate is from Robb’s. Yes, both have made fatal mistakes and yet Jon’s was “reversed” when he was resurrected. He’s been given another chance while Robb was not. As Davos wisely advised Jon: “Good. Now go fail again.” His mistakes and failures are what will make him stronger and more capable leader, I think. And aside from the mistakes he’s made, he now also knows the mistakes his father and brother had made. If he hasn’t learned anything by now then that’s character regression.
And maybe, just maybe, his KitN post will be his training ground for a much bigger role in the future. 🙂
Totally, Thank You. I guess she is trying to hint to the writers that she again wants a bigger & bad plot come next season. There is not book to follow, so she wants to be one of the main people in the story. You know on the same footing as Cersei, Dani & Jon. She has moved up the line over the past 2 seasons, but she still isn’t Main player in the Game.
She has given a few interview lately, & She is all tongue In cheek, but she is throwing shade of what she wants of Sansa come next season. Sorry, that is where I draw the line. The Show runners have it from GRRM on how it all pretty much, and it is up to them on how to fill in the blanks to get to that end, but it does have to make sense.
I do see her trying to help out Jon, but get played by peter while doing it. And when or IF bran shows up, she will be moved down the ladder even further. Jon is King of the North & I can see him making Bran Lord of Winterfell and Sansa Lady of Winterfell.
Lord Freddy Blackfiye,
True, though in the books she is trying. On the show, I think that she learned a major lesson. But, right now she is angry( as she should be, but I think that she should be angry with herself also. ) You don’t marry the son of the man who murdered your Mother and brother, POINT,BlANK,PERIOD. She did not know what Ramsey was but, Still you don’t marry into the family that killed yours. Sansa was trying to play the game, but still she wanted to be the Lady or whateve’s instead of being a Bastard.
Jon on the other hand a Bastard, cough cough not asking for power or titles & people keep voting for him to have it. Not to mention fighting for the RELM of men to protect it.
For Heaven’s sake – can we have a filter option for comments? It would be nice to read something other than Sophie this and Sansa/Jon that, like maybe a comment on John’s ideal death for Sam or Conleth’s hair.
I hope this is not going to be indicative of what this site will look like on the off-season.
Maybe already answered but what was the comment about one of the producers made (not sure if David or D.B), when they said “thanks Sophie” – and then she apologies?
Was it her twitter comments?
El-Bobbie,
Jon does not have Robert’s personality. Jon has been an outcast in his own home, and never just given something because he was 1st born & would get in anyways. Everything Jon received he has fought for & nearly died for it. Long Claw, killed a white: Lord Commander: The Battle at the Wall, Taking revenge on the Brothers that Killed the last Lord Commander. The Free Folk, Killed a Brother & almost died climbing the wall, and going to Hard Home to save them. And Last, The Battle of the Bastards, This is all show. But, Robert did do have of what Jon did.
However, it is true that a Warrior may not make a good king. But Robert was a bad example. Even Robert himself says that he is a bad king & never should have put that crown on his head. Ned thinks the same thing
Joanna Stark,
LOL, that was a good one. Still Lol, I can’t type
I believe you are absolutely correct in saying she could rightfully claim to have the experience of ruling. However, I would be more hesitant to say she has the knowledge… 🙂
I do not wish to be too harsh on Daenerys because she is one of the most well-intentioned, most morally rigorous characters on the show but I cannot shake the notion that her stint as Queen of Mereen was quite disastrous : she broke the pre-existing social contract, rightly so for it was a dreadful one, but failed to replace it with a new one, thereby leaving Mereen in complete shambles, on the brink of a devastating period of civil war. Tyrion did what he could to salvage the situation but it was too late. There is no way, short of a miracle (or poor writing 🙂 ), Mereen is not descending into chaos.
Does Daenerys know what she did wrong ? Does she realise that having a fire-breathing “Leviathan”, to quote Hobbes, is not enough to call oneself a successful ruler ?
I doubt she does for if she did, I don’t think she would have left. So I assume she genuinely believes she accomplished her mission in Mereen and everything there will be fine which, by all the rules of logic, politics and history, is unthinkable. This lack of hindsight may prove problematic in the future…
Ha ha ha ! You are most certainly right ! 🙂
The imperatives of television mean the spectacle sometimes takes precedent over the sensical. Nevertheless, we have to abide by the characters’ actions as shown on screen, regardless of what the producers’ and writers’ true motivations might have been.
Very hopefully.
As far as leading is concerned, I have very little worry for Jon. This is his narrative arc and he owns it. The writers have done a pretty good job so far showing us the incremental way in which Jon has learnt to inspire loyalty in his men and I have little doubt he will continue on this path.
The ruling bit is what concerns me more, to be honest. This is what he was meant to do as Lord Commander and we all know it did not end well…
At least, Jon knows that he has failed. He said so himself. That is already a step in the right direction. The question that remains to be answered is : has he identified the way(s) in which he failed so as not to reproduce the same mistakes ? So far, the writers have not really given any indication one way or the other. Time will tell.
I would like to think he could learn from his father’s and brother’s mistakes as well as his own however we are once again faced with the fact that the Night’s Watch is quite isolated from the rest of Westeros. It is arduous to decipher what Jon might truly know of what happened to his relatives, of what they did that might have precipitated their demises. Maybe someone will inform him. That could help tremendously.
Quite frankly, I think Tyrion on his own would suffice. He could be an excellent ruler in his own right; Daenerys, with all her unpredictability and over-the-top zeal, is more of a hindrance to good governance. However, Tyrion lacks the image and the “Leviathan”. Furthermore, in a world as prejudiced as Planetos, his short stature disqualifies him instantly. So, if Daenerys agrees to basically let him be the real power behind the throne while she just sits on it, then their duo could work wonders. But I doubt the Mother of Dragons will be this cooperative… 🙂
Otherwise, and I mention it knowing perfectly well it will never happen, Littlefinger. He may be morally bankrupt but he understands perfectly what ruling means and entails. Unfortunately for him, he does not have the name recognition, the legitimacy or the dynastic flair. If only he knew someone who did… Oh wait ! 🙂
ACME,
Well said! This is probably one of the best comments I have read on this website since I started frequenting it 1 year ago. We all get carried away with the idea of King in the North but the truth is, a divided continent will never stand a chance against the WW. Heck, a divided continent will only lead to future wars between the smaller kingdoms much like we had before Aegon’s conquest. I saw a comment before that the North doesn’t need Southern alliances against the WW! The Northern army including the Wildings is possibly the weakest in Westeros right now thanks to all of Robb’s battles, Red Wedding, and now the BOB. One of the main reasons Northern lords didn’t support Jon is because many of the armies and soldiers already died. The North is barely standing in terms of military right now and with winter hitting it in the face, the current army is not gonna be in an ideal state to fight WW. The Vale army is huge sure but its still not enough when u have tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Wights marching south and working in union. Wight are far more effective killing machines than human soldiers because they are already dead and dont have fear or hesitation. I have noticed in Hardhome that even if you cut off a wight’s arm or leg, it will keep fighting using the other arm. U can shoot it with hundred arrows and it will still stand up again and fight. I also noticed that some of those wights looked like skeletons or partially decomposed bodies. That could very well mean that WW can actually raise the dead from the grave hence why so many of them look like skeletons. In fact, the wights that attacked Bran the first time he met the COTF and went into the cave were skeletons that came out of the ground. If this is confirmed next season, then the WW army is gonna be insanely huge and far deadlier than any human army from the North or Vale by the time it reaches the North. There is a reason why GRRM had Dany gather and unit so many forces under her belt and kept her off of the Westeros scene for so long. GRRM has been saving Dany’s armies -2 of the deadliest armies in the world really- for the fight against the WW. Thats why I don’t believe Dany will lose a substantial or large number of her army before the battle with the WW begins.
What a fascinating and long discussion. Two short points. Sirensong wrote that Ned and Catelyn be horrified that Sansa was betraying her family. Yes, of course. But she’d already done it time and time again, especially in the first season/book 1. In a general way, her eagerness to shed her house/region/identity to become the queen/Lannister/center of attention, etc was almost indecent. More specifically, in a quasi-court she lied to the King Robert (as Ned knew–he must have been hurt/horrified) and thus gave Cersei the excuse to kill Lady. And more importantly, she betrayed her father’s plan to that very Cersei, which led to his arrest and ultimately death. Sansa identified more as a Stark after family was massacred at the Red Wedding, BUT she moved on.
Someone said that Sansa’s willingness to marry into House Bolton, which had betrayed and massacred most of her family in the RW is unforgivable. How very true. And even in accepting LF as mentor, she has unwittingly been molding herself into the very mindset that started the war, plotted Bran’s death, betrayed Ned, etc. TBH, if Ramsay had turned out to be the sweet, considerate, and normal person Littlefinger had purported him to be when coaxing her into the marriage, Sansa probably would have happily identified as a Bolton and borne Ramsay little Boltons. When Sansa did finally escape Ramsay, she eagerly ran to Jon as her only port in the storm. But now she’s competing with him. IMO, Sansa has never been a Stark at heart and does not deserve to be Lady of Winterfell. FWIW, Arya, who has frequently declared, “I’m not a lady”, does. She has dedicated herself for years to furthering the Stark cause and avenging family (and friends). And as she’s been pointedly proclaiming, “I am Arya Stark of Winterfell”. And I hope that she meets up with Sandor, learns that Littlefinger betrayed Ned to his death, and kills LF herself.
ACME,
I dont think that Petyr Baelish is the type for direct rule as king, he is more of an grey eminence behind throne and as you mentioned he could never claim throne for himself for all reasons you have mentioned or he would have to rule over ashes of seven kingdoms for him to become king (although I´m not sure who are you mentioning that would help him on the throne ? As I seriously doubt that he would be able to marry either Sansa or Daenerys). I´m not even sure that he truly wants throne, what he mentioned in Tv Show was to more entangle Sansa into his web of empty promises, lies etc…. and have her do something to promote his ultimate plan (which we still don´t know anything about, at least in books and I guess that in Tv show as well, if he has any plan at all than utter chaos and destruction in which he will be able to climb higher and higher).
Someone I would have rather seen on the iron throne than Petyr Baelish is Tywin Lannister even when taking red wedding into consideration and even taking into account fact that I personally dislike him.
And in the end although Petyr Baelish has enough skills to be king on his own (if he somehow overcome all problems you have mentioned) he is still in my opinion a cold sociopath who hungers for power over others basically for its own sake -he in the end does not care for anyone, even Sansa (obsession over her can be hardly counted as any kind of care for her) is a tool for him, and I hope she either knows it or will soon realise it. But what I think will be his end is that he has tendency to underestimate people (similarly to how people underestimate him because of his low origins, lack of powerful backers) – several times during TV show he made mistake of underestimating several crucial persons and their potential impacts on game of thrones (or to his plans) – Tyrion Lannister, Ramsay Bolton/Snow, Jon Snow/Stark/Targaryen and even Sansa Stark/Bolton/Lannister – I think that in the end he will miscalculate with Sansa and either Jon or Sansa will have him eliminated.
And in the end I think that even if he did not make a mistake of underestimating anyone as king he would not last for a long on throne – his manic desire to see him controlling everything and everyone around him, his uther disregard and loathing for everyone and everything (even if he was hiding it before I imagine once would became king he would not feel great need to hide as much as before + much of his success in his plans was caused as I mentioned by people continuously underestimating him because of his low origin aside from perhaps Varys and Tyrion – if he became king this would be no longer valid, he would be underestimated no longer) would create too many enemies for him – enemies (like Olenna Tyrell, Ellaria Sand and others) he would be unable to manipulate and who would end him.
MvonJ,
And to the actual topic of San Diego comic con panel. The only problem I´ve with with commentary of Sophie Turner is what she is saying (other parts of her commentary I can say that probably she is having fun messing with fandom not that she truly believes what she is saying) about actuall Game of Thrones:
“I think I want Littlefinger on the throne,” “I do! I just think it’d be fun. It’d be quirky and sadistic. We like that kind of thing. Come on, we all watch Game of Thrones.”
Ah, nope. These sentencies (and many others) are used by bloggers tu support theory that Game of thrones has maniacal/unpredictable plot twists coming out of nowhere, which is definitively not true. Entire story written by GRRM follows rather logical sequence of events – the books don’t give anyone any unfair advantage that can’t be reasonably explained. There are no plots points that seem to be pulled out of nowhere, and even if they do, they are given a very reasonable explanation as to why. Unlike the show, which seems determined to give the villians every cheat available. Most of major plot points of books can be reasonably predicted (with some margin of error) by reader if he carefuly reads books, take into consideration major factors of the game of thrones (alliances, marriages, abilities of major characters, goals of characters, their motivations etc…) – for example red wedding, purple wedding, betrayal of Jon Snow, failed attempt of Eddard Stark to seize power in capital and others.
It is basically what I like about entire series – that almost everything that happens in it is logical and is caused by something and does not simply come out of nowhere. A series that isn’t giving all the good guys a free pass, instead sitting them down and saying ‘Look, if you want to win, you have to play to win.
So, Isaac is 17? He’s a really good young actor.
Doctor’s Son,
While I agree with the overwhelming majority of what you wrote and do not in any way contest that there will be a phase during which the living will have to unite in order to fight the White Walkers, I have to confess I cannot quite shake the feeling the resolution of this whole conflict might not be military, ultimately. George RR Martin has always been very ambivalent about armed conflicts as means to resolve issues and his work reflects this ambiguity.
After all, we know that the long and murderous war between the Children of the Forest and the First Men was put to rest through diplomatic means, via the Pact. So it is established that humans and “mystical” entities can reach agreements. Furthermore, Craster seemed to have brokered some sort of deal with the White Walkers which would indicate that they can be persuaded instead of fought.
Perhaps the first Azor Ahai did not defeat the Others but arranged some kind of “peace treaty” with them. Perhaps the “light” he “brought” was not sword-shaped but more ethereal in nature. Perhaps it had more to do with a form of enlightenment, in the sense of new knowledge…
(Also, on a more specific, strategical note, I am not quite convinced the Dothrakis and the Unsullied would be all that useful in the North for they are accustomed to fighting in the heat of Essos. They do not understand winter nor have any experience of it. The Dothrakis alone would freeze their pretty nipples off before they could slay a single White Walker and a cavalry in deep snow has, historically, rarely been that strategically pertinent)
Because Ned would never ever lie to Robert about anything… (I kid because I love ^^)
I believe that was Joffrey.
Which begs the eternal question : what does being a Stark mean ? There seems to be as many definitions as there are Starks (and as there are readers of ASOIAF and viewers of GOT).
Again, I really do not think Littlefinger on the Throne is ever going to happen. It does not seem to be in the cards as far as narrative arcs are concerned.
I was merely giving my highly subjective and fundamentally disputable opinion on which characters have, as of now, the necessary chops to rule without the whole country descending into chaos and madness. While the overwhelming majority of characters are either dead no-nos (like Cersei or Arya) or unknown quantities (such as Jon or Daenerys), there are a few who seem fit for the job : Tyrion, Varys, Littlefinger.
As for Tywin, I wholeheartedly agree with you but would add that Baelish is actually very close in skills to the Old Lion.
PS I have always thought it deliciously ironic for Varys to picture Littlefinger as the man who would “burn the world” when he, Varys, is the one bringing to Westeros a woman who does quite enjoy fire as a form of government… 🙂
I would say: pack mentality. Sticking to your pack, helping them during winter (in times of need) instead of fighting each other. Jon definitely fits this definition. Arya would choose Jon over pretty much anything else in the world (I’d dare say, vengence, too), so she would be part of that pack, too. Bran – he would support his family, I think. That leaves Sansa – will she choose to fully support her family, or does she have personal ambitions? We will see.
I actually think Arya would make a good ruler, especially if she manages to stay on her “human” side – if she meets Jon again, that will help. But she does have a certain skill set, that would make her an excellent ruler (detecting lies, having means (and experience) to gather information, cares and knows about the needs of the smallfolk, has a sense of justice, not afraid of getting shit done). All she needs is a good advisor or small council.
My problem with Tyrion, Varys or Littlefinger is that they all are behind-the-curtain players. Nobody would follow them or choose them to be their leader or ruler.
Dany and Jon are people who inspire people to follow them – so they are natural leaders. Can they rule? Definitely not well enough, though we are yet to see how Jon rules (we haven’t seen much of his ruling in the NW). But with the right advisors, they definitely fit the job.
On a side note (Jon/Sansa leadership):
My only problem with Sansa being a better leader than Jon is that she actually lacks the people who would be willing to follow her. Even the Vale Lords shouted KitN, and they are supposed to support Sansa.
To me; that’s a very tough one 🙂
I see what you mean and even agree to a certain extent for it is true that Ned’s reminder to Arya (“the lone wolf dies; the pack survives”) alludes explicitly to it. However, it is hardly specific to the Starks, isn’t it ?
The Tullys also revendicate their deep attachment to the group, to the notion that the needs of the “clan” must always take precedent over those of the individual (Family. Duty. Honour.) The Lannisters as well, as defined by Tywin, are meant to serve their pride’s cause at all cost, regardless of each member’s personal preferences. Also, the Tyrells as portrayed on screen have always had each other’s back and proven to be one of the closest-knit, most affectionate and supportive families in Westeros.
While it does not negate at all your “pack” point, it at least complexifies it. For if at least three other Westerosi families can reasonably demonstrate and / or revendicate the same willingness to give priority to the collective over the individual as the Starks, such a characteristic can hardly be attributed to the Direwolves alone.
I understand why we all, viewers of the show and readers of the books alike, want for “being a Stark” to resonate like a blessing and illuminate like a badge of honour. I gleefully confess that I share this Stark-bias, to a certain point 🙂
The Northern family members were introduced to us as the story’s protagonists and we are more attached to them than to other families. There have been more POV Starks in the books than any other clan and the TV show opened on Westeros’s answer to Norman Rockwell with its portrayal of Ned’s lovely family unit. Quite mechanically, we tend to like them more than the rest.
Nevertheless, just because they are our heroes does not imply that they are, objectively speaking, more heroic or morally upstanding than any other.
If I were to venture a guess about what “being a Stark” signifies, I would say it stands for “be pragmatic”. To me, “Winter is coming” has always sounded extremely down-to-earth, unromantic and blunt. A statement of fact, a warning, an injonction to accept reality for what it truly is and do whatever it takes to survive it.
If anything, Rickard’s advice to a young Ned reinforced my impression : “try to stay out of fights. But if you have to fight, win.” No allusion to the manner in which to secure the win (honourably, cleanly, respectably, heroically, etc.); just a simple imperative. After all, you either win or you die… 😉
That is a very interesting take.
I cannot say I concur, however. Politics very often requires to make deals with parties one neither likes nor respects, to know when to let go of personal vendettas and not to react impulsively or harshly…
While I believe Arya to have many of the qualities you mentioned, I find myself unable to imagine a situation in which her hypothetical reign would not end up echoing that of Cersei Lannister, first of her name.
——-
I wholeheartedly agree with you about Tyrion, Varys and Littlefinger lacking the “whoa factor” that would inspire people to choose and follow them. It is why they all need Trojan horses, so to speak : a leader in name behind which they can, in effect, rule.
Daenerys attempted to rule on her own and it was… Well, to be as charitably euphemistic as possible, it was not spectacular. Jon also tried his hand at ruling and his “reign”, though short-lived, was… As illuminating as that of the Mother of Dragons, let’s say.
About half a year into their tenure so to speak, both had to face an uprising / mutiny which resulted, in one of their cases, in death. That is hardly a good omen.
I cannot state how much I agree with you in regards to advisors. If Daenerys and Jon are ever to govern successfully, they will be in need of behind-the-scenes rulers, of council. But having good advisors is not enough; truly listening to them and taking their opinion into account is the clincher. Can Jon and Daenerys do that ? I believe they can. For a while. Until emotions, righteousness and/or ego get in the way. Then I fear they might go rogue and it might not be pretty, neither for them nor for anyone else.
Littlefinger declared the Vale for House Stark (no particular one Stark but the family as a whole) before the KitN scene. They are pledged to the Direwolves, regardless of who the leader of the pack is.
By proclaiming Jon KitN, the Northern lords have declared him de facto head of his House so the Vale follows. It is a direct continuation of their pre-existing pledge and the Vale lords love their pledges and allegiances… After all, they are fiercely devoted to SweetRobyn even though he is no jackpot 🙂
However, it raises an interesting political question : is the Vale now part of the North, therefore independent from the Crown ? Is Jon “just” a king they support or is he their king ? If the latter, then SweetRobyn should have a say in the matter. The Vale can only “bend the knee” if its ruler does and the Arryn heir is, in name at least and indeed at most, said ruler. Interesting…
Perhaps the writers and director just wanted a scene where everybody shouted because it looked better ^^
I have to note how much I’ve enjoyed reading your posts guys! You have pretty much covered my views 🙂 Some thoughts/comments:
That! Well said – it’s a most important point! 🙂
Totally agree – there is little chance that Westeros survives even if all ‘tribes’ unite. WW are the winning side, whether in numbers or in any other practical way, they can’t be killed in the normal ways.
Which is why I find what ACME. mentions –
‘I have to confess I cannot quite shake the feeling the resolution of this whole conflict might not be military, ultimately.’
-might be much closer to what’s coming than we might think. I wholeheartedly agree with that. 🙂
Just to add that we really don’t know that much about how the WW were practically defeated last time. All we know is the mythology of it. And even worse I guess, we only know the least useful fractions of that.
We don’t know why the WW came back now. We don’t know the specific ways that war was fought in the past, practically. We assume that it was a normal battle. I think it was far from that! As for the future… I suspect that -yes of course- we’ll see a super-epic battle by the end, but I too think it won’t be the battle in itself that settles the matter. And it couldn’t be either: WW were created with magic, they are magic, and they must be ‘undone’ by magic, I think.
Stark Raven’Rad Sansa’s been acting in contrast to the other Starks from the start, indeed! So against the Stark mentality, that makes one think how that can become useful in the story. (Is it that it’s the only way to win LF in his own game? I really do hope so!) 🙂
Yes, very well said: Starks do seem to share the wolf pack mentality- that’s how they survive. There’s a set of qualities that has been clearly shown from the start and by now we all recognize them: ‘XYZ is so much like Ned’. That’s what a Stark is/means. Duty, honor and etc come first – unless you have to protect your pack!
To the question of who would be a better ruler on the Iron Throne – it’s a very tricky question. Each of the players has some strong quality, but that is not enough to rule. Tyrion would be my personal choice, he would make a good King, he has a good heart and he’s also a politician. But he’s not a leader – which is Dany. And Jon, is a great leader but a lousy politician and etc
The bottom line is, to my view, there’s no man or woman that could rule on their own. But that didn’t stop all the the Kings before them! 🙂
Very well said indeed, ACME. 🙂
Probably this 😀
Good question about Sweetrobin. I don’t know, not really. If I have to, I would put my money on the Vale supporting Jon as King, but not joining the kingdom. But what does that mean exactly? I have no idea. Cersei definitely lacks the means to invade the Vale, should she find out about all this stuff, so they might as well declare independence (with SR becoming King of Vale? Now that would be something!), but I don’t think they have already reached this point. It all depends on what Cersei does/can do about it, and when Dany arrives, when she takes KL, and what SHE will think about it.
On an interesting note: Jon, coming from the Targaryan line, does have some Arryn blood as well (so does Dany, obviously). So the funny thing is, that Jon might have a better claim on the Vale than Sansa. (before I get accused of being a Jon-fangirl, and wanting everything for my special little snowflake – I don’t. I would prefer Jon in the North, and the North alone. Not in the Vale, not on the IT, not necesserily KitN, just together with his family, mostly Arya)
Actually, Targs have Dayne blood as well (just in case someone needs to wield Dawn – though I’m not a fan of this theory, I prefer Jon with Longclaw).
I think that Arya improved a lot on this, too. She definitely learned to stay humble in the House of B and W. In the books, it’s her time in Harrenhal, where she is constantly beaten and she knows she needs to keep a low profile to survive. She is definitely not impulsive there. Personal vendettas – she did take the Hound off her list, didn’t she? I wonder if she has to choose between helping her family or killing Cersei, which way would she go. I think she will be presented with that choice in S7, when (if) she meets the Brotherhood/Hound or Mel, and learns that Jon is back at Winterfell, and she actually has a chance to go home (instead of going after Cersei).
I definitely prefer Arya and Bran going back to WF early in S7 – that would result in interesting dynamics between the Stark children.
SiriuslyStark,
I think that Westeros as it was left In GoT season 6 ending is continent with levies of almost all great houses apart from Arryns and Martells completely depleted and exhausted, continent on the verge of mass starvation and economical collapse caused by war of five kings and its aftermath (and incapable rule of king Joffrey, Tommen and their advisors). I´m afraid that support for north (if there will be any) will come either from Vale (as this part of seven kingdoms is mountainous and its troops should be capable of enduring extreme condition of North during winter) or Daenerys Targaryen (not from Unsullied or Dothraki as I doubt that they would be able to effectively fight in the north) amd her dragons. Other kingdoms are so deeply in their own problems (brigands from defeated armies and unpaid marcenaries roaming land looting and killing and looters of every kind using total dissolution of central order to get themselves rich) that it is miracle that they have not completely disentigrated (especially Riverlands).
@ACME: I actually think that Varys and Baelish are both creatures of chaos and annarchy (at least their book versions) who are willing to use most brutal and abhorrent methods to exhust to the point of breakdown almost all kingdoms of Westeros in order to
1. for Varys to prepare kingdoms for arrival of his chosen king/queen (Aegon probably) so that he wil face almost no resistance
2. for Baelish it is harder to guess as I think he has no real goal aside from gaining as much power as possible and control everything, maybe to have revenge on all high nobility for their arrogant behavior towards him as low level noble
In my eyes neither of them would be able to be king or is capable to be king – as some people mentioned before, they are manipulators and deceivers in heart and their modus operandi is to appear as unthreatening as possible so that their enemies will underestimate them and even think of them as their friends – if they were able to assume power for themselves somehow this method for them would no longer apply and they would no longer be effective in their shadow work and they would be no longer underestimated – rule of both of them would be extremely vulnerable as they lack any powerful backers for their rule, they lack noble ancestry and basically neither of them have family of any kind who would support them – so end to their rule would come very quickly in form of a dagger in their back or poison in their wine and kingdoms would be once again thrown into chaos after their death (of course everything I´ve mentioned is possibly my baised opinion of them as I personally like neither of them but I respect their capabilities and is meant as no disrespect to your opinion about either Varys or Baelish).
As for Tv show Jon and his capabilities in politic arena I can agree. But I think that Tv show is doing him injustice – in books although Jon still does not like politics, but he is also not a complete hack at them. He plays around between Stannis, Selyse, the Nights Watch, Melisandre and the Wildlings. He organised the wedding of Alys Karstark. He gives Stannis good advice on Northern politics. He can be deceptive as well. He deceives Stannis and uses Val to collect Tormund. He deceives Sam and Melisandre with Gilly’s baby. He acted as a spy against the Wildlings. He did not kill Mance and went along with Mance going to Winterfell. Jon can do deception, and he does have a certain understanding of politics (at least those in the north) he just doesn’t like to engage in these activities.
In the end I want to say that almost entire episodes 5 and 6 although looking nice are almost complete nonsense from point of reasonable plot and character development (for almsot every character starting with Stannis, Blackfish, Jon…. and ending with Jaime) – damn I´ve read fanfiction about game of thrones with plot 100x better than anything in seasons 5,6.
As for Vale I doubt that they declared themselves as vassals of the king of north – there is no reason for them to do so (but if they stayed quiet during entire King of the north scene it would look weird :D).
And I definitively agree with your opinion about Daenerys. With Daenerys sailing to Westeros with almost whole army + 3 dragons at the end season 6 (and leaving not very capable or trustworthy men as leaders of those cities – Second Sons have already changed their allegience once, who is to say that without daenerys and her dragon present they will not change it again) how long do you think will it take for conquered cities in Slaver’s Bay to erupt in mix of chaos and anarchy with various factions trying to gain control over them ? Daenerys may have suppressed slavers and maybe eliminated/suppressed economical model based on slavery but due to the shortage of time and lack of experience she never replaced it with anything – which means that even without anarchy and chaos of various uprisings and factions fighting each other those cities will collapse from economical point. In the end she might have done more wrong than good in Slavers bay – what good is freedom to those slaves when they will in the end die of starvation, thirst and various epidemies and uprisings (and they simply dont kow how to rule themselves) ?