Last year, as part of the GoT50 celebrations leading up to Game of Thrones season 6, the Watchers looked back on previous years’ episodes with a fresh eye, remembering the highs and lows and how the world reacted along with any significant points. All 50 episodes were covered, and we figured that we should continue the process this year, refreshing everyone’s memories with recaps of the past ten episodes.
Starting off the Season 6 Memory Lane, with 10 days remaining until the season 7 premiere, will be a great friend of the site. He took part in last year’s Memories, and is a damn hero of a helper during the Watchers on the Wall Awards every year. Give a hearty Watchers’ welcome to Greatjon of Slumber! – Sue the Fury
The premiere episode of season six, “The Red Woman,” gives us a series of women who have been brought low by circumstance throughout Westeros (and Essos), and we see all of them struggling to hold onto whatever sense of power – or dignity – they might possess in an unforgiving world where women struggle to achieve even a modicum of power. Some of these shifts are obvious, and were telegraphed in the Season Five finale – most notably Dany’s capture by the Dothraki, as well as Arya’s blindness, while others are only first reacting to news that we viewers possessed, namely Cersei and of course, Melisandre, whose nickname gives us the episode’s title.
The revelation at the end shows Melisandre for all that she is – her ancient, naked figure giving us context for her esteemed knowledge, the way she has, in previous seasons, been able to wave away all concerns about the Stark-Lannister War, along with other events that seemed important to the characters in question but in the larger framing really were meaningless. But it also lays bare the limits of her knowledge, and her recognition that her interpretation of the flames was perhaps incorrect, or at least faulty in some fashion. She erred in her thinking when it came to the late Stannis Baratheon; her encouragement of the burning of sweet Shireen having backfired, the death of Selyse, a true believer, hanging over her head. Add to that what we see in this episode – that she saw Jon Snow, fighting in the flames at Winterfell, only now to see him dead, stabbed by the treasonous Nights Watch members – and her despair is all the more notable.
This episode confirms the suspicions many had, that Melisandre was actually hundreds, if not thousands, of years old, and therefore possessed wisdom that others could only imagine. We expect more from her, then, but her dogmatic, rigid thinking has brought her to this point, where she feels the need to strip herself down (Carice van Houten is a regular when it comes to nudity on this show, but this instance doesn’t feel exploitative, at least) and look herself over, shorn of the amulet that either keeps her young or keeps the appearance to others of youth.
Cersei’s been brought low as well, and she’s thinking in mystical fashions too. It doesn’t take long before she recognizes that Jaime’s grim face as he approaches the shore, having returned from Dorne with their dead daughter, that Myrcella is indeed gone, and she weeps and shuts her eyes. Unlike Joffrey’s death, when she cast blame at Jaime for not protecting their son, she by now is more of a mind to accept the words of the wood witch whom we met in Season Five, who told her of the “golden shrouds” that all of her children would wear before her time was up. To her, this death is a signal that this prophecy will not be undone, and can’t be reasoned with – that Myrcella will rot, and deteriorate, and that everything she has will be taken away from her. Jaime does his best to try to keep her spirits higher by again closing walls around her and him, the only way they’ve lived for years after the abuse from their father forced them into each others’ arms. But it doesn’t have the same effect; Cersei seems irretrievable here, and she carries her sadness with the additional knowledge that her youngest, Tommen, is likely to meet a similar fate.
Daenerys is in no more envious a situation: captured by the Dothraki, none of whom are aware of who she might be, even though she has been running Slavers’ Bay for some time and is notable as the Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea. However, Khal Moro – a new character, played by Joe Naufahu – eventually gets the hint, and the typical threats of rape are replaced with a bit of reverence but an order that the Great Khaleesi will now have to live out her days with the Dosh Khaleen, the widows of the khals, in Vaes Dothrak. (We also get a nice return of a couple of “it is known” ladies, in this case, two wives of Khal Moro.)
Arya, too, is at a low point, living as a blind beggar on the streets, waiting patiently for a few coins here and there. Arya’s in a bad spot, not having gotten used to her blindness yet, and again taunted cruelly (and somewhat tediously) by the Waif, who is unwittingly starting to sow the seeds of her own death by training Arya to move without eyesight. That’s later, though, and for now, we just have to deal with Arya’s suffering.
Margaery’s situation, too, has not improved – she sits in a cell, listening to scripture from Septa Unella (given a name here for the first time), told that she has still not reached a level of piety that will allow her release. Margaery, as always, is playing the game, but it is also going to take some time before she has anything resembling a firm position.
The only two women who seem to have recovered some sense of power are Brienne of Tarth and Sansa. We find the latter with Theon Greyjoy, still fleeing Winterfell, and forced to ford an icy stream to get away from Ramsay Bolton’s dogs. It doesn’t work, and how they don’t eventually get hypothermia is beyond this viewer. Either way, Brienne shows up to save them, and kills the Bolton redshirts, who actually put up a bit of a fight before Brienne, Podrick, and Theon take them down. And in the episode’s most beautiful scene, we get callbacks to both Season 5, when Brienne attempted unsuccessfully to offer her sword and service to Sansa, and more naturally Season 2, in one of the series’ most enduring moments, when she does the same with Sansa’s mother, Catelyn. The dialogue intentionally mirrors that moment, and we hear the Stark theme play in the background, a reminder of all that has been lost since then, most notably Catelyn Stark.
Catelyn’s bastard son, the one she notably “refused to love,” and went north to The Wall to prove his worth, lies dead in the snow, having been stabbed by the traitorous Alliser Thorne, Othell Yarwyck, Bowen Marsh, and Olly (@#$%@#$@!!) at the end of the last season. Jon’s return was the worst-kept secret in Westeros during the off-season, a problem that would have been difficult to solve given the efforts by many to steal a still from shooting, but the producers probably could have been more adamant about his return as a corpse, something Kit Harington at least tried to do in interviews shortly before this premiere. In this episode, though, we get delayed satisfaction as we see Jon lying on a table while Davos, Dolorous Edd (getting his nickname for the first time) and a few others guard his body along with his loyal direwolf, Ghost, who we see (sadly) licking Jon’s hands as he lies in death. It’s unclear what Davos thinks his play is; he seems to agree with the notion that the traitors deserve death (and Thorne all but admits his belief drove him to this moment), but how that might be accomplished is beyond them, though they send Edd off to find Tormund and the Wildlings prior to the end of the episode. The eventual outcome – Jon returning to life – makes sense, given GoT had long slipped past its ability to shock people with death, so having someone become the boy who lived made sense. We just weren’t going to get such satisfaction this time.
![GOT_MP_102015_EP601-6014[1]](https://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/GOT_MP_102015_EP601-60141.jpg)
Oh, and the producers completely set fire to the Dornish storyline, getting rid of two interesting characters (Doran and Areo Hotah) and one lame one (Trystane Martell). Was this the plan all along? It’s not clear; Alexander Siddig has hinted that perhaps it wasn’t. It’s hard not to believe he, along with Hotah, got the short shrift here, but, perhaps the less said, the better.
Introductions: Maester Wolkan; Khal Moro, Akho and Qhono, and their “High Fidelity”-style “Top Five Awesome Things About Being a Dothraki” conversation, which of course Khal Drogo would have never tolerated; Khal Moro’s “It Is Known” wives
Deaths: Trystane Martell, Doran Martell, Areo Hotah, the “Dornish storyline,” the credibility of the person who thought a 300-pound man would drop dead from a three-inch dagger in like, seven-tenths of a second (seriously, Doran writhes for a longer period of time after taking one in the chest), several Bolton redshirts, “Stannis Lives” truthers
Beautiful Death for The Red Woman, by Robert M. Ball
Yaaaaaaaas
Still wondering where Ramsey’s best dogs disappeared to during that chase scene 🙂
In all seriousness, a very good episode, but not my favorite season premiere. “Two Swords” is better in my opinion. I really love the start of this episode when you can hear Ghost howling during the overhead shot of Castle Black
I absolutely loved this premiere. Great introduction to all story lines and beginning the set up for the season.
I have to say, Lena is FANTASTIC in this episode. Her talking about Mycella made me cry.
The scenes at the wall are some of my favorites, they were so intense. And I loved Ghost in them 🙂
Sansa <33333 loved that she didn't know all the words properly, so cute.
Another red woman not mentioned was Myranda 🙂 hahaha
Et finalement, I had no issues with what happened at Dorne!!
Haha, Memory Lanes… the inspiration for my GoT reviews on this site, and the inspiration for 114 LOST memory lanes I wrote/filmed during this year… I remember how big my hype was last year, as this was the only (GoT and non-GoT) fansite I followed and these posts just contributed to that.
Funny thing is that this is the exact episode I plan to watch today. If I want to finish in time, I need to regulary watch one episode each day (or violate my personal rule and watch two on certain days).
Jon is not Catelyn’s bastard son. He isn’t anything in relation to her.
Haha, maybe I should repost what I wrote for this episode when it aired. It was my first attempt to write a review so this is nowhere similar to the style I used for later episodes…
“Well, here are my brief thoughts:
In my opinion, it was a good premiere. Nowhere close to the Two Swords, but better than The Wars to Come and Winter is Coming, especially considering that premieres are usually not my favorite episodes.
The highlights: Everything with Davos. And I liked that ser Alliser managed to get most of the Night’s Watch to his side. That way, he still remains a grey character and not a full villain.
Sansa’s scenes were great as well, especially the hug and her speech to Brienne. On a side note, I really like the fact that Sophie Turner is now credited individually.
Least favorite: Trystane’s death. It was very rushed. A couple lines about Myrcella’s death would help. On a positive note, this was the first time I wasn’t annoyed by Obara.
Biggest shock: Dorne. I really DID NOT see that coming. And on the other hand, it really made sense. When Doran got the letter, I was sure Ellaria would be arrested. When Areo was stabbed, I was sure the soldiers would overpower Tyene. But the soldiers… just watched their leader bleed out to death, the leader they despised so much. This was an excellent addition to Dornish storyline. My only complaint is that Alexander Siddig and DeObia Oparei were very underused. I really liked Siddig’s interpretation of Doran, which was more sinister and less weak than his book counterpart. But at the end, he was still weak. And it’s a pity that we haven’t seen Areo in combat.
The verdict: 8/10. On my ranklist, I would (currently) put it on rank 31, before Walk of Punishment (rank 32) and after The Pointy End (rank 30).
Side note: I see that a certain GoT Wikia administrator has already written some huge rant articles about Dorne and Jon on the episode’s main page. I’m glad I’m not editing it anymore.”
Dee Stark,
Also, that Theon Sansa hug was EVERYTHINGGGGGG
Dee Stark,
Well, the actual hug came in next episode… here Theon hugged her because he wanted to warm her up.
Sean C.,
It’s merely a turn of phrase. She raised him, she was his mother in a way.
Lord Parramandas,
that’s the hug I am talking about… the one where he warms her up, Sansa’s emotions in that moment <333
I understand that Ellaria would hate the Lannisters because of Oberyn’s death, but she has no justifiable cause for revenge. Oberyn made his own decision to fight the Mountain. He got too cocky and lost. It was his own fault.
Sue the Fury,
She had no role in raising him, though. Ned was clear on that point, he was Ned’s responsibility alone.
This is all pretty irrelevant at this point in the narrative, of course, it’s just that the nature of those characters’ relation to each other is a frequent point of contention in fandom.
Ah yes… let’s avenge Oberyn for fairly losing a trial, by killing his family and killing his brother for being disabled. Lord what a mess. I thought this was the weakest premiere episode. Makes me wish D&D had stuck to their original plan to revive Jon at the end of ep 1 and make the episode longer.
Jon isn’t Catelyn’s bastard son and I’m pretty sure Ghost just sniffed his hands and didn’t lick them. Why do I remember this?
Poor Maester Wolkan. Tough day at the office… the next one should be worse lmao. Loved Carice’s work in the first 3 episodes, and especially the ep 1 scene; wish we’d seen more of her throughout the season.
Oh, Maisie just interviewed Lena and it’s amazing https://www.net-a-porter.com/magazine/409/10
1. Extremely well-written! Great read! In this age of clickbait and gibberish, it was nice to read an article written in complete sentences.
2. I chuckled aloud more than once, e.g., the “expletives placeholder” after Olly’s name. (I still feel ashamed of myself for considering using a still shot of Blue-Faced Swingin’ Olly as a screen saver.)
3. Loved the scene in which Brienne lays her sword at Sansa’s feet and offers her pledge as sworn shield; it was a nice bookend to the similar scene with Brienne & Catelyn in Season 2. (My only question though: Instead of being so confrontational with Arya + Sandor in S4e10, why didn’t Brienne just bow down, lay her sword on the ground, and say: “Lady Arya, I offer my services to you. I will shield your back… etc.”)
4. The Geezer Mel reveal at the end couldn’t have only been for shock value. Her attitude reflected her self-doubt and disappointment. But the fact that she’s so ancient has got to mean something more, doesn’t it?
5. This episode made me wonder even more about “The Lord of Light.” Is he/she a looney who likes to burn little children alive, or a benificent god who extends life and gives new life?
Mr Derp,
Don’t overthink Dorne
It was a half baked storyline that wasn’t even planned to be part of the series in the first place, and then way conveniently set fired to made irrelevant this episode.
Thats it.
Flayed Potatoes,
What an amazing interview. I thoroughly enjoyed that!
Ten Bears,
I’m not quite sure where Melisandre’s mental state is right now. She definitely seemed to lose her confidence after the Stannis disaster at the end of season 5, but she was able to successfully bring Jon Snow back to life a couple episodes later, so I assumed that would re-kindle her fire if you will, but she still seemed to question herself even after resurrecting Jon Snow. It’ll be interesting to see what Mel does in the wars to come.
Flayed Potatoes,
I toohad a little trouble with the logic: “Let’s avenge the deaths of Elia Martell and Oberyn Martell…by murdering the rest of their family!”
Or… “The Lannisters murdered Doran’s sister and Doran’s brother. Let’s avenge them by…murdering Doran and Doran’s son!”
And I suppose… “Let’s honor the memory of our dearly departed Prince Oberyn, who always vowed that “we don’t hurt little girls in Dorne”…by killing a little girl in Dorne!”
Ten Bears,
I think Ellaria is basically “Either you’re with us or you’re against us” in S5-S6. In her eyes, DOran sympathized with Lannisters so she “removed” him in a way “If you won’t do what’s necessary, I will”. I see it as an example how revenge is not a right direction as it can reach new boundaries, people turning even on their own people.
Ten Bears,
And then once that little girl dies like 5 feet from the Dornish shoreline lets continue to travel all the way to Kings Landing with her fresh corpse in tow instead of turning the ship around and confronting anyone about it.
Flayed Potatoes,
Holy Balls! Maisie interviewing Lena? I can’t wait to read it! I’ve always admired their mentor-protege relationship.
Thank you in advance for the link.
Ellaria: She was on international waters!!11
OT:
MORE interviews
Sophie on TV Guide Cover <3
https://twitter.com/GameOfThrones/status/882961881081815049
And interview with Nathalie Emmanuel <3
http://ew.com/tv/2017/07/06/game-of-thrones-missandei/
Ten Bears,
Do you think that Ellaria’s decision is supposed to make sense or be logical? No, its not.
Cersei placed the high sparrow in power to bring down the Tyrells family why?? Because Marg married her son? How is that logical or make sense?
When you are a crazy lady (Cersei, Ellaria, etc…) you do NOT make logical decisions for the ones you love. She loved Oberyn, she had hate and revenge in her mind, and was blinded by it. And im sorry, but everything she said to Doran after she stabbed him was true.
Dee Stark,
Sophie/Sansa looking beautiful on that cover!
Lord Parramandas,
So the logic is: “If you won’t take revenge by killing the Lannisters…then I’ll kill you!” ?
I get the “weak men” shouldn’t rule Dorne thing (but don’t agree with it.) I just figured the most expedient way for the Teenaged Mutant Ninja SandSnakes and their mama snake to exact vengeance would’ve been to hop on a boat, travel to KL, disguise themselves as waitresses and barmaids, and start slitting throats…or poisoning drinks.
Oberyn snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by spiking the ball before crossing the goal line, but credit him with targeting the actual culprits: The Mountain who murdered his sister and her children; and Tywin who “gave the order.”
Visiting the sins of someone on innocent relatives is always a dicey proposition….
H.Stark,
I know !!! <3
Gemma Whelan
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/features/game-of-thrones-season-gemma-whelan-yara-greyjoy-actress-interview-theon-hbo-the-moorside-karen-a7826891.html
Thanks for hyping it! I’m savoring the anticipation of reading it.
Ten Bears,
What Dee said above… not every character makes logical choices. And like I said, the revenge is not always the right choice. Ellaria is not Oberyn, not even a Martell herself, and she has a different way of dealing things. Revenge on the Lannisters is her priority:
And don’t forget, the soldiers despised Doran and no one lifted their sword when their prince got assassinated. But Doran was so blind that he hasn’t noticed that.
This! Every character in GoT is flawed and they all make mistakes and illogical things.
Probably because by the time she realised who Arya was there was a known outlaw and notorious Lannister henchman stood between them with his hand on his sword.
The weakest premiere along with “Valar Dohaeris” in my opinion.
A. Brienne saving Sansa completely nullifies the moral dilemma that made her story in Season 5 compelling. When faced with a choice between revenge on Stannis and upholding her oath to Cat, Brienne chooses revenge. That choice should have had consequences. But no, she gets to have her cake and eat it too (dumb expression but the only adequate one I know for such a case).
She kills Stannis AND saves Sansa, meaning that there was no difficult choice, there was no conflict between two duties, and there were no consequences. This dilemma was a perfect embodiment of the human heart being in conflict with itself, which is GRRM’s central tenet.
This is completely gone now. Not to mention the fact that Sansa and Theon are far away from WF at this point, so Brienne somehow finding them in the middle of the woods is pretty hard to buy, especially since she didn’t know that Sansa had left the castle.
Obviously, the disappearing dogs are the icing on the cake of this shoddy sequence.
B. Lena Headey is fantastic in this episode, and the best scene is her giddily running to see Myrcella, and tragically realizing what happened. Not a fan of the next scene though, where Jaime regresses once again and tells Cersei that they’re the only ones in the world who matter. Yay for recycle dialogue and character stagnation.
C. Davos’ sudden willingness to sacrifice his life for Jon is silly. Stannis is dead, Davos should logically be returning home to his wife who he loves so dearly according to what he says in Season 2. Yet he’s inexplicably loyal to the corpse of a man he barely knows. Why die for the corpse of a stranger ? It’s just dumb.
D. The Mel reveal is great, but doesn’t lead to anything interesting later in the season.
E. Roose Bolton is suddenly worried about the Lannisters coming North, despite saying in Season 5 that they would never send their army this far North. Part of the reason why he agrees to the marriage is because LF convinces him that the Lannisters are no threat. Now suddenly he’s concerned.
Also, it’s kind of annoying to see him emphasize the importance of having Sansa to secure the North, when the rest of the season shows that Ramsay still has a decent amount of support without her, that neither Lyanna nor the Glovers nor anyone else was desirous to help her, and that the Northern lords would rather be lead by a bastard deserter of the Night’s Watch who almost got everyone killed. So somehow, Sansa is both the key to the North and completely politically ignored at the same time.
F. For some mysterious reason, the Sons of the Harpy who desperately want Dany to leave decide to burn her fleet, thus ensuring that she cannot leave.
Also, the commoners of Meereen mysteriously write in the Common Tongue that “Mhysa is a master”, instead of using their native language. Also, Tyrion and Varys erroneously state that “Mhysa” means “mother” in Valyrian, when it is in fact Old Ghiscari, hence why Dany didn’t know the word back in the Season 3 finale. In Valyrian, “mother” is “muña”. We can hear it very clearly on several occasions when Dany’s titles are read. A very odd mistake for them to make.
Season 6 premiere is my least liked premiere of Game of Thrones.
Jamie’s talk with Cersei is almost identical to the talk Jamie had with Cersei in the season 5 premiere while paying respect to Tywin’s dead body. “We’ve got to stick together, they are going to try and pull us apart and use this against us” or something close to that.
I liked Arya’s scene…
Considering Melisandre has lots wisdom, knowledge and experience I like how she gives simple answers when asked for advice… Jon Snow ask in a season 6 episode…”Do you have any suggestions on how to defeat the Bolton army”? and Melisandre says “Don’t lose”
I’ll be surprised and disappointed if I don’t like the Season 7 premiere (“episode 7.1”) much more than the season 6 premiere episode… The Red Woman
Lord Parramandas,
Ellaria no doubt blames Doran in part for Oberyn’s death. She probably figures that if he had acted to avenge Elia earlier then Oberyn wouldn’t have got himself killed pursuing revenge on his own.
And, of course, Oberyn’s moral standards and love for his family are irrelevant now that he’s dead.
Ellaria is taking revenge the way she wants to, against the people she blames for the hurt she has suffered.
I’m going to have to go back and rewatch the Doran stabbing scene again to listen to what Ellaria said. Because my immediate reactions were:
• What? They just killed off Dr. Bashir?!!!
• Bronn’s cute little girlfriend just dropped that hulking bodyguard with a pen knife to the back?
I’m in the minority because with the exception of Bronn and Jaime showing up at the Water Gardens in broad daylight dressed in Dorne costumes like an old Bob Hope-Bing Crosby farce, I didn’t detest the Dorne story line. Nevertheless, I assumed the showrunners pulled the plug on it prematurely because of negative reactions by the fandom.
As for Cersei… Well, as I’ve said before, Cersei – echoing the feelings of many mothers-in-law — didn’t think the “smirking whore from Highgarden” was good enough for her “baby boy”, and didn’t take too kindly to Marge’s attempts to manipulate Tommen to get his mother out of town. But Marge signed her own death warrant in that one scene where she boasted about her sexcapades with Tommen; insulted Cersei with the “Dowager Queen or Queen Mother” comment; and topped it off with the “bit too early in the day for us” snark about Cersei’s drinking.
(The very first time they met, Cersei warned Marg “if you ever call me “sister” I”ll have you strangled in your sleep. ) Marge overplayed her hand, and then while she was in the middle of her “long con” of the HS and Tommen, she didn’t foresee Cersei blowing up the board.
Is any of that a justification for Cersei’s treatment of Margaery? Probably not. But it’s like if someone comes upon a sign that says “Danger! Electrified Fence! Do Not Touch! Risk of Death or Serious Injury!” … and decides to try to hurdle the fence anyway, it’s kind of hard to blame the fence if the person gets electrocuted.
To be cont? (Gotta go look at the Maisie-Lena interview!)
My reasoning for this is that she returned to her candle watching position, saw the candle and heard the bloodhounds and then trailed the “hunting” party. Maybe she didn’t get back to see the candle but decided to investigate or assume Sansa and Theon were what they were after. Of course we weren’t able to see exactly how they ended up riding in to save the day but I imagine that’s what went down.
What I want to know is what exactly was Brienne’s plan once she saw the candle lit in the tower? How would she have managed to get Sansa out of there and into safety?
It’s possible the candle was still flickering in the window once she and/or Pod returned to their vantage point.
And if they saw team(s) of hunters leaving Winterfell soon after and perhaps heard alarms being raised in Winterfell, then they could have joined the dots, figured Sansa had escaped and followed the hunters in the hope of finding Sansa.
Stannis and Shireen are dead. And he’s yet to get to the bottom of how they died. He wasn’t likely to be going anywhere until he had.
He is also an outsider, who knows about the murder of the Lord Commander. The likelihood is that he would not have been allowed to leave Castle Black alive anyway. May as well go down fighting.
She had already left. She hadn’t been seen in weeks after taking off after Daznak’s Pit. It’s just a further act of terrorism to try and drive out her remaining supporters.
Ten Bears,
Yeah, sure, but for Ellaria, she thought, when someone I love is killed, not by but BECAUSE of the actions of the family were supposed to hate, then well im going to want to take revenge, and she saw Doran as likely the reason why Oberyn was killed. Oberyn went there to get revenge for Elia’s murder… because Doran wouldn’t do anything about it. Her method may be incorrect, or even illogical if you disagree, but this who she is, whether you agree or not. Her actions were not “out of character”, or “shocking”, or “didn’t make sense” from a writing perspective.
We’re supposed to make this assumption. They can’t spend precious minutes of the show showing us these details.
I agree with everything else you said
Markus Stark,
Except Brienne’s “oath to Cat” had an express condition: that Brienne could kill Stannis if the opportunity presented itself.
what i remember from season six?
ep 1 – the red women is old for no reason. she proved as dumb as fuck.
ep2 – jon come back in the last second of the episode. what happened before – who cares.
ep 3 – don’t remember. ah … something about a tower.
ep 4 – was there an episode?
ep 5 – the official start of the season.
ep 6 – predictable and boring.
ep 7 – so predictable and boring!
ep 8 – no one should see this shit….arya storyline is the most disappointing of them all.
ep 9 – A good B movie wilth a lot of effects.
ep10 – i’ll remember the music.,,, the other staff’ much less
Clob,
* (short edit timer) before anyone says “she wouldn’t care about Theon or know that he was with her so she wouldn’t go after him,” I didn’t notice in time to fix it so it didn’t read in a way that someone wouldn’t respond with that. 😛
Ghost sniffing Jon’s hand was the best moment of this episode.
Hi:)
Davos is the type of man who wants to help the good. He knew he wasn’t getting out of there alive. I think his choice to dip castle black after Mel returned would have been extremely out of character.
After losing at Blackwater, Salladhor Saan told him to go home to his wife… yes he was previously commited to Stannis (vs Jon as you argue), but Davos doesn’t walk away easily, and in season 5, he had told Jon that Stannis sees something in him, and kind of showed too that Davos believed in Jon as a person, as a leader.
Regarding Mel’s reveal, the writers took advantage of her weak and vulnerable state, to show how powerful she is, setting up for the resurrection in the next episode, especially for those who have forgotten the incidents with Thoros/Berric/Mel in season 3.
My five cents [we don’t have pennies anymore here 😉 ]
Alon,
Thanks for sharing your pleasant thoughts. It’s enjoyable to have you participate.
Clob,
LOLS
Clob,
* SHIRT! double negative. Is it possible to increase the edit timer just a little bit?
Jenny,
GoT’s new spinoff should just be an animated show about Ghost going on adventures. 10/10 would watch
Flayed Potatoes,
omg that would be sick
Early in the episode when they take Jon’s body out of the snow and inside…Davos stares at Jon’s blood in the snow in a rather curious way. What was that all about? I remember this was a topic of conversation when the episode aired and people thought there was the shape of a dragon in the blood, blah blah, blah, which I didn’t personally see, but I did think it was odd the way Davos looked at the blood.
I assume it was just a horrified look at how much blood there was, but I don’t know.
Mr Derp,
We brought this up during our rewatch last week, my sis and I. I think that he was staring at how much blood there was… you know, a little bit of shock.
Edit: To your edit, that’s what I thought too
Maybe in four or five years they’ll retitle it “Episode 61: A New Hope” 😉
Flayed Potatoes,
Well I would prefer that to many of the ideas floating around lol.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
But SHE is the apparent “Lannister henchman”, not Sandor.
S: “Go ahead, Brienne of F*cking Tarth. Tell me that’s not Lannister gold. ”
B: “Jaime Lannister gave me this sword.”
HE is the one with a bounty on his head for killing Lannister soldiers. He suspected (albeit mistakenly) that’s why she was there.
And once again, if she hadn’t been so presumptuous, she would’ve learned that Sandor had protected Arya from Lannister soldiers, and had adopted as his mantra, “Fuc* the King.”
Covering in spoiler code just in case…
I don’t really have a clue about what the episode titles will actually be, but I am personally thinking that
will be the title for the season 7 finale.
Mr Derp,
Omg I think that too.It would be very fitting.
For season 8, I think we’ll have “A Dream of Spring” in there somewhere either the last or penultimate episode of the series.
I also think “The Storm” will be a title in season 8 somewhere.
Other than that, I got no idea
Dee Stark,
I think a sense of shock upon seeing all the blood and recognising the brutality of the murder, would certainly provoke a sense of injustice that might have contributed to Davos’s decision to stay to see the murderers held to account.
Especially following the recent deaths of people he cared about.
But also, I think acknowledging the blood was a little reminder, probably more for the viewers than for Davos, of the availability of blood magic.
I share your concerns for this episode. I chuckled when Thorne and Davos debated their situation through the closed door. I almost thought we would get a Pythonesque “Come back again and I will taunt you a second time!” parley.
But Mel’s attitude was intriguing. She seemed so zealous toward empowering Stannis (burning Selyse’s family seemed to invigorate her) in past seasons but after that failure north of WF, she doubted her faith and personal mission, to the point that the person she saw in the flames and the power she envied so much (Thoros rebooting Beric) didn’t matter anymore. She had to be reminded by Davos (!) that she should try something! Bizarre and intriguing. Even after she enabled Jon’s rez, she still lingered in her depression (almost as if she expected Davos’ reaction and her subsequent banishment).
In any case, as mentioned above and discussed before, I hope Mel’s last scene was not a simple one-off and her age/identity is relevant to the ice and fire cause.
Dude you need to let it go.
Sean C.,
This. He is, maybe, her bastard stepson?
I got the impression that it was Euron, not the Sons of the Harpy, who burnt Dany’s ships (as per his speech during the Kingsmoot).
Ten Bears,
Except that he notoriously was a Lannister henchman and is currently a wanted outlaw. It is known.
It is The Hound who presumes that Brienne is paid by the Lannisters and refuses to accept her explanation.
It would’ve been decidedly suicidal of her to lay down her sword and put herself at the mercy of a man with The Hound’s reputation.
Markus Stark,
I agree with all your points.
Jack Bauer 24,
I think it would be best for everyone if you give it a rest already.
Flayed Potatoes,
!!! Love this article and all the photos! Lena is beautiful and lives in a beautiful place. Maise makes a great interviewer, when did she start doing that? Think she could give lots of much older and more experienced ones a few lessons on what questions to ask and how to respond! I esp loved this, cause it was so sweet, like an older sister praising a younger sister
Thinking back on my feelings after all of the season premieres (2-6), I don’t believe I’ve ever thought they were “fantastic” episodes. Good, yes, but not holy shit type of stuff. They’ve normally felt more like a reload, a reminder and reset of where the characters are and the beginning of their next steps. Having said that I remember thinking that “The Red Woman” was pretty solid. After all of my subsequent viewings that opinion hasn’t changed.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Yes!!!
This argument makes less and less sense every time I hear it. Killing Doran isn’t Ellaria’s revenge, teaming up with Dany is. Doran made it perfectly clear he wasn’t going to involve Dorne in a war, making him an obstacle in the way of Ellaria’s revenge. In her eyes, Doran had to go.
Jenny,
My personal guess for the season 7 premiere is “First of Her Name”.
I base this on absolutely nothing, lol, but it sounds good.
Dee Stark,
Quick comment: I will never critique the writing. It is brilliant. Not perfect (what is?). But brilliant.
Revenge is never about honoring anyone’s memory. Ellaria is hurt and believes avenging Oberyn will make her feel better. This was never about what Oberyn would have wanted, it’s about what Ellaria wants.
Ten Bears,
Ayup – besides which if Oberyn hadn’t been so damn cocky Mt would be dead, he’d be alive Ellaria wouldn’t have killed anyone and our story would be ery very different. I did like Ellaria in the book, but this one, bah. (love the actress tho)
Oops was responding to your comment about Ellaria’s actions but can’t find it. So I responded to both, sort of!
Ten Bears,
Yes, that would make sense (and who knows, maybe thats what will happen with them this season, killing off lots of Lannisters in the process)
A great write-up from Greatjon of Slumber – A most enjoyable read.
Good to see Memory Lane is back to help us pass the time before S7 airs 🙂
Markus Stark,
So true.
“Hello Kelly C, we want you to get out of our city, but first we’ll burn all your ships….. so you won’t get out of our city.” 10/10 fireproof plan
Lord Parramandas,
True but the show did not give any indication that was the case. Should have been some gun hanging comment somewhere….would have made somewhat more sense.
Markus Stark,
I think he had come to admire Jon, and was upset that he was gone, and he wanted to get revenge on the traitors who killed him. People have died for less I suppose…
Yes, that was my point. I feel when it comes to GoT general fandom, too much focus is given to story and how must everything make perfect sense, and not on characters themselves. In GoT, we follow characters themselves as well… at least I see the show that way, and everyone is flawed. They make both right and wrong decisions, clever and not clever decisions… because they’re all people. People make mistakes all the time in lives.
And I get the vibe people usually like to discuss what they didn’t like… not what they liked. At least it seems to me when scrolling through this thread.
ash,
Actually, when Ellaria confronted Doran in S5, she told him that the people were not happy with his inaction regarding Oberyn’s death.
Markus Stark,
I love it when people are multilingual in fictional languages (thanks for that info). I also wondered why that would have been written in English. It could have been written in Valaryian and the translated by Varys to Tyrion and the viewers.
You comment btw about Brienne finding Sansa – yes, that made no sense. I got that she saw the candle after killing Stannis, so would have been in the area, but finding them like that was total luck.
Exactly this! She mentioned how she and SS have the love of the people. And Doran was deaf to what was happening around him… he believed his status as a prince makes him untouchable but he didn’t leave Water Gardens for months, maybe even years.
And those who complain about the dogs… those were not “Ramsay’s girls” but normal bloodhounds, which are used for tracking. They were seen in S2 as well, when Theon went on a hunt after Bran and Rickon.
Lord Parramandas,
I seem to recall Ramsey telling Roose that his best dogs were on it, but either way, it’s a minor part of the story. I just assume they didn’t want to show dogs getting killed because they would get backlash for doing so.
Perhaps we’ll get to find out more about it during the dogs’ next POV chapter.
Mr Derp,
Well, they were not “the dogs” we know, not the vicious dogs he used to kill people… possibly the best tracking dogs, but he needed both Sansa and Theon alive. THey looked completely different than those he kept in the kennels.
I think it would be best if you stopped caring what one person on the internet says. You’ve already been called out for being a bully in another thread and it wasn’t even me who called you it which means others are starting to recognize you as one. Not a good look.
It is really easy to scroll past someone’s comments when you see there name. Takes 1 second. I do it when I see your comments most of the time and you don’t see me complaining about it.
A Dornish Tyrell,
I don’t think we saw Euron sailing yet tho; don’t think it would have been him. So perhaps most of the ships she used came from Dorne? Or the masters didn’t destroy the entire fleet?
A Dornish Tyrell,
Ah ok, youre right there.
Lord Parramandas,
This is very true (and agree with Dees comments about the same). Which is why I sometimes get bothered by people blaming a character who makes a mistake (they all do!) I’d rather look at why they decided that way and did it make sense. (full disclosure I do blame characters for their mistakes. Shh don’t tell anyone)
Im in a couple of bookgroups online and in RL – some of the best discussions is when we talk about what we didn’t like and what we disagree about. Nonetheless, you are right, there was much to love about this episode. So lets change the direction – . What were your favorite moments?
Jack Bauer 24,
I know what you’re referring to, and no, I have not been called out for being a bully. Someone named Gina said they felt bad for you that you were being bullied by “regulars” and others responded to her telling her that she was wrong. Apparently Gina missed the fact that you’ve been trolling every thread with your inane babble about red carpets and episode titles for the last couple of weeks now. You enjoy changing the narrative to make yourself look like the good guy, when in fact, it’s the complete opposite.
I don’t know exactly what your problem is, but I’m no bully and I don’t think anyone else around here would describe me as being a bully. YOU have been called out at least twice by Sue and at least once by Luka about YOUR behavior though. You have also been called out by countless posters, regular and not so regular. YOU were also the one who responded to ME to begin with. Perhaps you shouldn’t engage me with your b.s. if you think I’m such a bully. And perhaps it was ultimately my mistake for even responding to you at all. I won’t be making that mistake again.
We’ve got 10 days to go before the premiere, let’s try and keep things positive and upbeat.
ash,
When Euron addressed the Kingsmoot, he told them that his fleet will seduce Dany (along with his big cock). This kind of “seduction” would work better if Dany was in need of a fleet because hers was suddenly (and mysteriously) set on fire…
Euron arrived at the Iron Island after a long absence, where he was “galavanting” around Planetos… That’s how he got informed about Dany in Meereen.
I’m speculating here… I could be completely wrong though (it wouldn’t be the first time and it won’t be the last).
I deal with anxiety. I little kindness goes a long way. If you see anxiety as “trolling”, then that’s really sad.
A Dornish Tyrell,
Mmm ok, but I can’t remember when Kingmoot happened – was it before the ships burned?
After I believe
Dany’s ships burned in episode 1, Kingsmoot happened after that.
ash,
It was later… the ships burned in S06E01 and the Kingsmoot happened in S06E05.
Young Dragon,
The audience is so split on this.
I fully agree with you.
I like Dorne. We may be the only two who do.
Mr Derp,
I agree with you.
Jack Bauer 24,
Haha I think so!!!! Ten Bears also
A Dornish Tyrell,
Ok then, I could see it happening then. Thx
I was so happy for the return of GoT by the time of the premiere, I pretty much forgave the episode whatever little dings it might have had. I just wanted Jon to be saved.
In addition to whether or not Jon was truly dead, my second biggest concern was making sure Sansa was saved somehow, and would not be returned to Ramsay. By the end of season 5, I was so sick of Ramsay that I didn’t care how they showed Sansa’s escape, as long as she escaped. I think I even wrote as much during the off-season. I’m usually not so forgiving of total lapses in logic in the show, but by the time episode 6-1 aired, it wouldn’t have mattered to me if they had shown her and Theon magically sprouting wings in the middle of their fall, as long as she got away from Ramsay permanently. So Brienne and Pod coming to the rescue caused great happiness in my living room that night. Theon picking up a sword and skewering the Bolton soldier was icing on the cake. Sansa being so visibly upset that Theon wanted to leave her was a big scoop of ice cream on that cake.
“I’m not much of a hunter, I want some mutton.” Davos was handing Throne’s bs right back to him.
Regarding Melisandre – earlier in the show, when she told Stannis she could give him a son, I thought “Ah ha, that’s what her game is, she wants to wipe out all other Baratheons and revive the line with her babies.” But there was no real baby, only that demon creation. Then came the reveal she was ancient and that explained it. No magic ruby necklace in the world is going to do anything with nether regions that old but cause a puff of smoke.
Thronetender,
Yep. Speaking of Theon and weapons, we haven’t seen Theon’s bow and arrow skills come into play since season 1 now. I’ve been wondering if his particular set of skills will become important later on down the road. Same with Arya. She’s got crazy good skills with the bow & arrow.
Mr Derp,
I think Theon’s ability with the bow and arrow should be quite diminished since Ramsay removed some of Theon’s fingers (I can’t remember how many).
Jack Bauer 24,
Only speaking of THE BOOKS I would prefer if George had ripped most of those pages out before sending to his editor. Like on the show Oberyn was great. I didn’t/don’t need or want any of the rest. It is what it is though. 🙂
A Dornish Tyrell,
Very true and I didn’t really think of that, but I also think it might depend on which fingers are missing. He should be able to get by without a pinkie or two, but not so much with other fingers and thumbs.
Now Davos on the other “hand”…
Good one!!! 😀
A Dornish Tyrell,
Derp!
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Then Brienne should’ve walked away. As she later told Sansa about encountering Arya with “a man”:
“She didn’t want to leave him, and he didn’t want to leave her.”
In any event, by the time of the encounter, Brienne WAS an agent of Jaime Lannister, and the Hound had already rejected the Lannisters and was on their Ten Most Wanted list.
I re-posted my (first attempt of a) review near the top of the comment section. I pretty much described what I liked about the episode there.
As for positivity/negativity, I prefer the approach “mention what you dislike, but put the main focus on what you liked.” I watch an episode, I like it/really like it/really really like it etc. and I’m left with positive feelings, every time in GoT (no bad episodes for me). And I come to the fansite because I want to share this enthusiasm with others… not complain about what I don’t like.
She was wonderful in the series Rome.
Ten Bears,
Except that Brienne wasn’t Jamie’s agent but still Catelyn’s. Her mission was to exchange Jamie for the girls. The fact that she could (with a lot of help) finished the first part of her mission doesn’t release her from having to complete the second part.
Flayed Potatoes,
Darn it! I can see the beautiful pictures of Lena H, but the text of the Maise W>Lena H interview is chopped off. I’ll have to try another computer.
Thronetender,
Ya gotta love Davos…much more than an advisor. He’ll give the NK crap with his dying breath then come back as a wight with more crap!
Besides his survivalist logic demonstrated each season, I especially found his discovery of Shireen’s demise at the hands of Mel well-portrayed. I honestly thought he would conveniently dispatch Mel during the battle since her effectiveness has apparently gone away.
But I do hope Mel’s glamour and identity is revisited this season, especially with dragons and obsidian nearby. Hopefully, even though her nether regions are useless, her purpose is not.
Ten Bears,
Walk away, leaving the girl she vowed to protect with a notorious outlaw and former henchman of the Lannisters, whose motives she can’t possibly know for certain?
No, I don’t think so.
Just because Arya didn’t want to leave him doesn’t mean that’s what’s best for her.
She’s a child, who doesn’t know who she can trust. She may be better off with Brienne, but she doesn’t realise it yet. For example, she wouldn’t have Lannisters soldiers and other mercenaries gravitating towards her, chasing the bounty on her travelling companion’s head, if she was with Brienne.
Anyway, weren’t you arguing the other day that Brienne gave up searching for Arya too easily? Or was that somebody else I was debating with?
Aren’t you contradicting yourself somewhat by saying that she should have walked away the first time she faced a potential battle for Arya’s custody?
Where is King Stannis when you need him to interpret the law?
How would that work? If you plant a poisoned kiss on a girl in Dorne but she doesn’t actually die until she’s in international waters… did you “hurt the girl” in Dorne? Or outside of Dorne?
Does delayed reaction poison give the Dornish a loophole, i.e. “We don’t hurt little girls in Dorne” (but they can bleed out and drop dead once they leave).” ?
“Arya’s in a bad spot, not having gotten used to her blindness yet, and again taunted cruelly (and somewhat tediously) by the Waif,”
Yes, it was tedious. A few days ago someone mentioned that in the books, Arya’s training entailed learning languages and more about poisons, and all sorts of other useful things. I would have loved more of that. Yet here she was on the show getting hit by the Waif, over and over. This season should be better.
W
LOL that’s exactly what that scene was like. I’ll chuckle all day over that one.
Regarding Jaime proclaiming that they were the only 2 people in the world, I liked that scene. I remember even up until then everyone was so sure that he was going to find out about Lancel and give her grief over that, or that she would be unforgiving of him bringing back Myrcella under a golden shroud. Their reactions to the situation were totally unexpected. But he proclaimed his love for her once again, and I knew that he wouldn’t be running off to find Brienne any time soon. (at least not until Euron shows up and offers her his big … fleet, and she takes him up on it.)
I remember the cast during pre-season publicity for season five saying that episode 501 had everyone in a dark place – this can equally be said of 601, The Red Woman. Jon is, quite literally, dead; Daenerys has been captured by the Dothraki; Cersei and Jaime are grieving the loss of their daughter and in the case of the former, worrying about what it might mean for Tommen’s future; the Tyrells are on the back foot; Tyrion has been left in charge of a foreign city where he barely speaks the language and Daenerys’s other advisers don’t trust him; Sansa may have escaped Ramsay, but she’s still not safe yet – even with Brienne and Pod protecting her; Arya is blind.
I was never a fan of Alliser Thorne (the only episode in which it is halfway acceptable to like him is 409, and even then it is begrudgingly), but he did stick with his principles until the end. The speech he gives in 601 is echoed in 603 when he speaks his last words before Jon executes the mutineers. Thorne truly believes he did the right thing for the Night’s Watch. He is as certain as Loboda the Thenn is at the beginning of 508 that the Free Folk and the Night’s Watch are the true enemies of one another.
Thinking over the last premiere has me wondering about the next one – we will have fewer plot strands to pick up given the mass cull of characters in season six, so hopefully it won’t feel as much of a quick wrap up of where everyone is that The Red Woman does. For me, the best premiere is Two Swords and 701 and 801 will need to be on top form to beat it.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Nope. I’m saying she should’ve deferred to Sandor in the first place, instead of picking a fight.
Brienne is a total stranger to Arya, bearing Lannister weaponry, and insisting Arya come with her. Brienne is no different than Meryn F. Trant marching into Arya’s lesson with Syrio and insisting “Arya Stark, come with us, your father wants to see you.”
And yes, after pummeling her guardian and pushing him off a cliff, she shouldn’t just say “well, she disappeared. I looked around for three days and then said “F*ck it.” ”
There’s a little girl out there all alone thanks to Brienne’s “intervention.”
(And gee…there was “a man” she didn’t want to leave who you sent flying off a cliff; maybe look first where he landed?)
Ten Bears,
A question for the philosophers 😉
Yes, I do, too. Mel is an interesting character, and Carise plays her perfectly. I also suspect that she has a special yam potion for those nether regions.
The way the show completely jettisons everything it had spent multiple seasons setting up with not just Sansa, but the Starks in general, is one of the worst aspects of the Season 6 Northern story. Quite apart from the obvious inconsistency, it completely undermines one of the key thematic features of GRRM’s post-Red Wedding storyline in the North, which is where the underlying strength of Ned Stark’s legacy as a good man shines through even as Tywin Lannister’s legacy as a rotten one begins to stink up the place (starting with his corpse on the bier).
Ten Bears,
That’s true, but it’s also the case that 510 presented Brienne’s moment of being torn between staying at her post and going to try to find Stannis as a moment where she felt torn between two impulses. And she gave into the desire to go after Stannis, missing the signal.
But there turns out to be no consequences for this choice, and there’s not even any explanation for how she was able to do it (various people have conjectured that Brienne saw the candle still burning, but the show didn’t even establish that the candle was still in the tower, since Sansa left and was going…somewhere, when Myranda stopped her).
Love the Memory Lanes! I’m very happy to welcome their return, and to relive Season 6 – my favorite season of the show – as we count down the final days to Season 7! Nice write-up, Greatjon of Slumber – way to get us started!
The scene where Brienne swears her oath to Sansa for the second time, and Sansa finally accepts is my favorite scene in “The Red Woman”, as I expect it is for many. I just got there in my rewatch, and it’s still every bit as beautiful as it was when I watched it for the first time. The way the music swells, the way that it so closely mirrors Brienne’s initial vow to Catelyn – it’s incredibly poignant and hopeful.
Lena Headey is just extraordinary when Cersei learns that Myrcella is dead. We’ve never seen her quite that broken. It’s all the more powerful (and in many respects, chilling), in retrospect. In the Season 6 premiere, Cersei is at probably the lowest point that we’ve ever seen her. In the Season 6 finale, she ascends to the Iron Throne, and she greets the suicide of her last son – which in many ways she is directly responsible for – with cold indifference. In both cases, she has come to see the prophesized death of her children as inevitable, but her perspective on it has completely changed.
I had always accepted that Melisandre was much older than she appeared, but seeing her true form was a genuine shock, and an extremely cool moment. It forces us to consider all the previous times that we’ve seen her character use nudity and sexuality to her advantage in a new light. Probably for the best that Stannis didn’t learn about this before he died, though.
(FWIW, I unequivocally despise the glamour fake-out in the books involving Mance and Rattleshirt, but I don’t mind this reveal at all – quite the contrary, in fact. That’s probably because it’s the “fake out” that bothers me more than the “glamour”, and because this development, unlike that one, tells us something indispensable about Melisandre at a moment when she’s never been more vulnerable. Ultimately, the moment feels well-earned).
I’m hesitant to even touch on the Dornish coup, less I summon the Ghosts of Flame Wars Past. I will say that I consider it an acceptable conclusion to a storyline that, in balance, I enjoyed more than most (especially now that the surviving members have joined up with Dany), and I have far fewer problems with the logistics of it than some do. Ellaria’s motivations made sense to me, and the Dornish guards standing by and watching was a great touch that helped sell it without words. The Sand Snakes got on a second ship and followed Trystane to King’s Landing, where he was waiting in the harbor because it wasn’t safe for him to enter the city. Not hard to figure out at all. And my interpretation of the scene where Tyene stabs Areo was that she stabbed him in the spine, using a dagger that was presumably coated with poison. That will drop a man of any size, no matter how large he is. Having said that, I’ll concede that it could have been handled a bit more gracefully, which is probably a fair summation of the storyline as a whole.
All in all, not my favorite season premiere (that would be Two Swords), mostly because it needed to resolve so many cliffhangers from the Season 5 finale, and the episode is, by GOT standards, relatively short. But it’s still a strong start to the season, with multiple scenes that have gained added resonance now that we see what they were building towards. We’re off and running!
I was a bit disappointed by it on the first viewing, but on my season 6 rewatch it seemed much better the second time around (for the most part).
Definitely down with the lower key season premieres such as “The Wars to Come” IMO though. I would also go for “Two Swords” as my fave.
Curtains drawn, S6 Ep 1 on 🙂
Young Dragon,
Well said, on all counts!
Not intending to start a Dorne discussion but this made me laugh out loud:
Anyway…great write-up. I enjoyed this episode immensely even if the “shocking” Melisandre reveal wasn’t so shocking. I agree that the scene when Brienne offers her sword to Sansa – with Theon and Pod assisting in the background – was beautiful and touching.
Glad to see that the Memory Lane posts are back.
Ten Bears,
Bit hard to defer to the bloke who gets in your face, accuses you of being a Lannister stooge and tells you to take a running jump, all while preparing to draw swords.
She swore a vow to find and look after the Stark girls. She found one in the company of a known outlaw and notorious Lannister henchman who was in no mood to compromise. Her logic in trying to “rescue” Arya from such a man is just as sound as Arya’s distrust of Brienne as a stranger carrying a Lannister sword.
There is no reason she should have to defer to this man, although she attempts to explain herself nonetheless. I suppose she should have deferred to Littlefinger too when she found Sansa in his company? If not, why not?
Anyway, they fought, he lost, and Arya chose to run off despite The Hound advising her to go with Brienne.
So how many days was Brienne supposed to hang around searching for Arya, while she was on a boat miles away sailing off to Braavos?
My main question was how at the beginning of their search of three days they didn’t end up walking near Sandor when they looked in the immediate area to begin with? Maybe they did and just assumed he was dead or also figured he’d die anyway and ignored him. So not only did she not tell Sansa the man’s name but didn’t mention that she killed him or thinks she killed him.
Yeesh, I forgot how great the Sansa Theon rescue scene is. Pod helping Sansa during Brienne’s oath is endlessly endearing.
A side note: I just finished rewatching this episode and even though it’s my least favorite from that season, it’s still pretty high compared to my least favorites from other season. S6 is the only season where I didn’t rate any episode below 8 and it’s my favorite season because I feel it’s really all about the characters at this point… character-driven shows are always my favorite.
Clob,
And that bothered me too: Sansa had her own emotional connection with Sandor. It was odd that Brienne reduced him to “a man” and said nothing about fighting and killing him: only that Arya and “the man” didn’t want to leave each other.
Then Brienne and Sansa talked about how Arya was dressed, and that was that.
I’ve been speculating that omitting any callback to Sandor by name simply meant there won’t be any future “SanSan” story. And I’m okay with that.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Arya is the one who told Brienne to take a “running jump” – twice.
Sandor: “You heard the girl!”
And if Brienne hadn’t rushed Hot Pie for “the quick version” and asked him basic questions (either at the time or in a followup visit), eg who else Arya had befriended that she might seek out, Hot Pie would’ve told her about the mysterious Jaquen from Braavos and the coin he gave her to visit him in Braavos.
But hey.. This is all speculation and “what ifs.” The show put Brienne on Team Sansa. That’s fine. I figure Sandor is gonna be on Team Arya. That’ll be even better.
Re: the Sansa/Brienne oath scene. The first time I watched it, I remembered the Catelyn/Brienne oath scene, and at the time, thought that the words each said were inspirations of the moment. Since the words Brienne said to Sansa were identical to those said to Cat, and the reply Pod prompted Sansa to give was identical to what Catelyn said, I guess it can be assumed that there was a standard oath and a standard reply? Is this something a girl/boy learned in training to be a lady/lord? Was it covered in the books? Did it happen so often that a knight pledged their services to someone that there were standard replies, replies that even a squire would be schooled in?
I must admit I found the scene charming. Much better to have someone kneel at your feet and pledge their loyal service than modern days, when one is more likely to get someone’s middle finger in their face.
good point! Can you imagine Brienne striding through the streets of Braavos?
Jared,
Last nine minutes of “Two Swords” = all-time best segment on GoT. (With apologies to the supporters of the top 20 on the recent 101 Countdown.)
Ten Bears,
Very, very, very high on my list! From peaking through the bushes to riding down the road on (two) horses is just great!
Ten Bears,
Arya. A child. Currently in the company of a notorious outlaw. As I’ve tried to explain, there’s no reason why Brienne should be expected to trust her judgement.
Sansa also told Brienne where to go, but I think we can all agree that Brienne was wise to ignore her rejection. And she was employing the same logic when she challenged The Hound.
And you’re not really going back to this pointless Hot Pie conjecture, are you?
How many hours should she have spent listening to Hot Pie spin a yarn about their various adventures rather than cut to the chase and give her the most important details? The very details that in fact led her directly to her encounter with Arya in the Vale.
If she’d let Hot Pie give her the long version, then she probably would’ve missed Arya altogether.
And how many details do you think Hot Pie would have got wrong, considering he can’t even get the name of Arya’s home correct, despite being corrected repeatedly?
I really don’t understand why you keep coming back to this point about Hot Pie. He told her Arya was alive, that she was last seen with Brotherhood, and that they also had The Hound with them. That’s all she really needed to know to get on Arya’s trail.
Did she need to know about Yoren, and Lommy, and Amory Lorch, and Polliver, and the Tickler, and so on and so on? Exactly which of the myriad details Hot Pie could have conveyed should have been considered relevant?
It’s ridiculous to criticise the character for asking Hot Pie only for the most relevant points.
Thronetender,
I think the oath/reply is a standard copy and paste recital that all knights, lords, ladies whomever would know. And Pod, the ever dutiful squire, would definitely be well versed in the standard operating procedure, made evident by his lack of hesitation to assist a frazzled Sansa.
A Dornish Tyrell,
Except that Brienne never really bothered to finish the first part of her mission: exchange Jaime for TWO Stark girls in KL. Not just arrive there, have someone say “Arya hasn’t been seen since Ned’s execution and is presumed dead”, and think “well, so much for Arya.”
No outrage that her patron Catelyn was specifically told both girls were there, alive, and well? No anger that she – and Catelyn – had been deceived from the outset?
When you’re in charge of a hostage exchange and the other side doesn’t produce its prisoners, don’t you at least ask “where the f*ck is she, and why did you promise you’d have her here?”
Instead, the other side says, “she disappeared”… and you write her off?
Yikes, well you were certainly thorough. Apparently this point about Hot Pie has been made before? It wasn’t a point I made, but your reply was kind of testy. It seemed logical to me to ask further questions – The writers don’t do a whole lot of that in many conversations between characters. They let pertinent questions and details go unasked and unanswered that normal people in conversations would be sure to ask. Granted there isn’t time enough to cover every point, but they sometimes leave gaps, even though they know this fan base is the equivalent of millions of eagle eyes.
ramses,
Thanks for the reply. I figured it was standard procedure in a time of knights and lords and ladies. Considering all the warfare that has gone on, and all the houses that have been ravaged, there would be many knights whose lord had been killed, who would be looking for someone else to pledge to, making a standard reply necessary.
There is one question that popped up in the episode where Jaime and Bronn go to take back Riverrun. Bronn reminds Jaime of the promise to provide Bronn with a castle and a beautiful high-born lady. Jaime says something about Bronn becoming
Jaime’s right hand, and being a knight and Bronn says ” yeah, knights don’t get paid.” What? I thought if anyone got paid first, a knight would get paid. Wasn’t Bronn arguing with Tyrion about his pay at one time?
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Because: Hot Pie, notwithstanding his idiosyncracies, is a critical witness, and the only source of information about Arya’s whereabout since the last time she was seen in KL, and for the next several years. He is the best and only source of clues where she might go. As you observed, even the abridged chronology he provided to Brienne gave a lead to her possible location.
Hot Pie went out of his way to stick his neck out to try to help his friend, after initially (and understandably) not wanting to get involved. The least Brienne could do to fulfill her “sacred vow” is spend time getting as much intel as she could from this friendly witness.
* Oh, final comment: If Brienne had simply said “Pod! Get me the wolf bread from the saddlebag!”, given it to Arya along with Hot Pie’s message, it might’ve defused the situation.
Feeding the Hound never hurts either.
I don’t think knighthood was a particularly lucrative career option in a monetary sense. Any knight can “knight” a knight. That does not automatically mean the money will start rolling in.
Pledging a oath to someone should come with room and board though 🙂
Bronn did have a similar conversation with Tyrion after becoming, Bronn of The Blackwater.
In both instances he was applying his less honorable sell-sword swagger to leverage his knighthood for more money.
In summation….it all depends on who you work for.
Thronetender,
The Tickler spent more time “interviewing” witnesses who didn’t know anything than Brienne bothered spending with a cooperative, first-hand witness who knew everything about Arya’s welfare and whereabouts from the moment Yoren chopped off her hair in S1 until Arya and Hot Pie parted ways in S3. Up until Brienne encountered Hot Pie in S4e7?, Brienne had “presumed” Arya was dead – without ever bothering to look for her.
So it just felt kind of strange for her to talk down to Hot Pie and hurry him along.
QFT
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
“Did she need to know about Yoren, and Lommy, and Amory Lorch, and Polliver, and the Tickler, and so on and so on? Exactly which of the myriad details Hot Pie could have conveyed should have been considered relevant?”
———-
A: Every last one of them.
Because when you’re trying to find a missing child, every detail is important.
Look, I understand the time limitations of a TV show. I’m not expecting realism. Yet, a single line “Please, start from the beginning, and tell me everything you can remember…”, followed by a fade-out to a different scene, would’ve taken three more seconds, and at least made it seem Brienne was pursuing her mission in earnest.
PS Love the show, and the writing. I am NOT bashing either one.
Ten Bears,
Except the point is moot.
We do not know that Hot Pie would have given her accurate information. We do not even know if Arya told him about Jaqen’s invitation to Braavos, or that he was even from Braavos (do we?).
What we do know is that had she hung around listening to the long version she most likely wouldn’t have run into Arya at all.
And Arya may never have ended up in Braavos at all if it wasn’t for her encounter with Brienne.
She could’ve ended up dead in a ditch somewhere after the next lot of soldiers/mercenaries tried to claim the bounty on The Hound’s head instead. In which case the garnering of all the extra information would’ve been worthless anyway.
She asked for the most important points. Hot Pie gave her those which he believed to be relevant. If she had made it to the Vale and found Arya nowhere to be seen then she probably would’ve set out to find the Brotherhood. And they could’ve pointed her in the direction of The Hound or Gendry. And she already knows about Jon at Castle Black as a potential destination for Arya. And if she really needed to she could always go back and see if Hot Pie had any more obscure clues to offer.
But jumping on a ship over the Narrow Sea would probably have been last on the list of leads she pursued under any circumstances. And would Arya still have been there by that point? Would Jaqen have provided any information about her whereabouts?
Like I said, it’s moot.
Only by listening to the short version did she even come into contact with Arya. And only through that contact was Arya prompted to head to Braavos anyway.
And something tells me that bread was long-gone by the time they made it anywhere near the Bloody Gate. But even if they still had it, all it proves is that they got their information from Hot Pie. It doesn’t prove anything about Brienne’s loyalties or motives.
If the nostalgic, bonding conversation about their fathers didn’t win Arya over then I doubt a loaf of bread would have.
Ten Bears,
So blame the writers, not the character.
But as I explain above, even if they had written it that way, it was moot anyway.
Since Brienne would never have rushed off to the nearest port to go and search Braavos before she had explored all the avenues in Westeros first. Which led her to stumbling across Sansa anyway.
What benefit would knowing that Arya knew a bloke from Braavos have offered the story? None.
Yes, somewhat odd. Didn’t notice it then, even though I am one like you who comes at the situation from all sides of logic. I was just so charmed to see Hot Pie again, and the wolf bread. Maybe if they had had less talk of kidney pie, and more questions, it might have been better. But all his talk about the finer points of making cherry pie and kidney pie meant he was doing ok, he had seen some peace in his short life, and could afford to spend time thinking about baking rather than worrying about sheer survival. I liked that.
I was online at the time that episode aired; we hadn’t seen HP in years and as far as I know, there hadn’t been any word of Ben Hawkey being seen on set. Seeing him was a complete surprise, twitter went crazy: Hot Pie, Hot Pie. It was fun. I hope he shows up again before the end, fat and happy.
See, HBO, if you didn’t make us wait so darned long between seasons, we would be far less prone to nit-pick past episodes to bare bones. I know this complaint isn’t going to make the wait between S7 and S8 and shorter, but just saying.
(* Voice of Captain Picard to HBO suits: “Make it so!” *)
that’s the truth
Ten Bears,
Basically every word that Ramsay’s 20th Good Man has said… At this point it seems you are just looking for excuses to blame Brienne for ending up at Sansa’s service and not Arya’s.
Thronetender,
“A few days ago someone mentioned that in the books, Arya’s training entailed learning languages and more about poisons, and all sorts of other useful things. I would have loved more of that. Yet here she was on the show getting hit by the Waif, over and over.”
Yeah, this is frustrating. There’s so much cool stuff in her book training, I guess the show didnt think it was visual enuff. But if she ever gets to face the WWs with a staff in her hands and a VS sword, she’ll mow them down!
Abel,
Oh I so agree – her time at the HoBAW in the books was one of my favorite archs in the series. I missed the Kindly Old Man who asked her to report back three things that he did not know. And the waif did train her in fighting, but there was also lessons in poisons and languages. Her experience on the docks in various characters, including blind beth were fun to read about. I don’t know why the writers felt the need to make the Waif such an adversary. But there is it.
Alba Stark,
Totally agree. Actually I liked him even less in the books, but you are right, he sticks to his priniciples, says he’d do it all again. Can’t fault him for it I guess.
BTW no one had mentioned Myranda. Ramseys short eulogy was almost sweet, and it seemed he really loved her, as much as he could possibly love another person. And then he commands the poor Maester how to dispose of her body. Dear lord…… I didn’t feel bad for her, glad Tyrion killed her off, but man no one deserves that. I will say tho that the actor who plays her did a great job – wonder if she was ever interviewed about her character.
ash,
oops not Tyrion, Theon. Its late, I should be asleep……
And I suppose… “Let’s honor the memory of our dearly departed Prince Oberyn, who always vowed that “we don’t hurt little girls in Dorne”…by killing a little girl in Drone!”
Oberyn says that line to Cersei, who promptly contradicts him by saying little girls are hurt and killed every day, all over the world. She thus denies both his explicit claim about “little girls” and his implicit claim that anything is especially good about Dorne. (Inhabitants of the other Kingdoms of Westeros must get really, really tired of all that Dornish self-promotion.)
The irony is that Dorne *is* shown as someplace special. The dungeon is clean, bright, and dry, with huge cells, and the Water Gardens are a palace unlike any in Westeros except maybe Highgarden. Bronn gets little more than a slap on the wrist for assaulting the heir to the throne — what would Cersei have done to him, eh?
Who makes Dorne like every other place in the world, a place where they hurt innocent children? Why, Ellaria Sand does, she who lectures her own Prince about his country and its virtues.
The writers packed a lot into those two lines, which is a sign of very good writing indeed.
ramses:
I mentioned this in another thread a week or so ago. I think this scene is Pod’s best, and it disappoints me that it’s repeatedly referred to as only a Sansa-and-Brienne scene. As I’ve noted before, it’s one of the few times one sees Sansa, who is often aloof (even haughty) humbly deferring to a social inferior for guidance; it’s very sweet, in different ways, for all three of them.
Late to the party, but great write up, Greatjon! Love your sum-up at the end. Can’t wait to read the rest!
Dee Stark,
What does <33333 mean? Thanks and sorry for my ignorance lol
Sean C.,
That makes sense cause I don’t think it’s possible to raise a child and not end up feeling some kind of love for it, unless A. The child is a bad egg which Jon is not or B. The woman is a sociopath which Cat was not.
Mr Derp,
I’m thinking maybe it was not Mel’s doing but Davos only he doesn’t know it yet. He’s the one who really wanted it, lingered by Jon’s body, remember when Thoros said he was nobody special, drunkard and even had lost his faith when the LoL gave him power to raise Beric.
Jack Bauer 24,
I don’t know why simple innocuous questions would get called out in this manner when they can very easily be overlooked. It’s like trying to censor someone and that’s not cool (unless they’re being mean, rude or violating a rule which you are not.)
Jared,
x1000
ygritte,
haha its an overly excited HEART
<3
vs
<33333
lool
Flayed Potatoes,
They burnt her fleet because they attacked her with their own fleet in E8 and Meereen had no ships.
Ramsay clearly did love her, she was the match for him.
But being Ramsay, he didn’t want to show a soft underbelly, so he gives the maester the heartless instructions.
Then he rushes off to have a good cry somewhere in private. He was barely holding it together.
Markus Stark,
You make a lot of good points but my interpretation was the fleet was burnt to make the naval siege later in the season more of a formality.