Episode 340 – The End of Autumn
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Autumn is finished. Long live Winter. Ozzyman joins the cast for a last pass before our Winter winds blow.
We asked, you answered. Let’s go into this finale together!
Discussion Topics
The story so far
Littlefinger’s true plan
Jonno is back
What will Sansa do?
The Trial
Will she kill them all?
A new Red Wedding
Who will die?
Listener Owns
Con of Thrones
Winter is coming.
Great to hear the ‘Ozzyman’ ! That guy creases me up 😀
I actually think that Sansa might marry Littlefinger in order to protect Jon. If she rejects LF’s proposal, he could very easily sic the Knights of the Vale – who are the ONLY ARMY occupying Winterfell right now – on Jon.
Yikes. The discussion about Littlefinger and Sansa made me think of this…If Sansa had to play f___, marry, or kill with Littlefinger, Sandor, and Robin Arryn, what would she decide?
I said in other post by i will say it here too. How Sansa will secure herself with merrying LF? He has the power by manipulating Robin but without him he is nothing; What Sansa should do? Kill LF by help of some knight of Vale, marry Robin; She has the power of the North and the Vale.
OZZYMAN!!!!!!!!! <3 😀 Awesome podcast 🙂
Queen in the North 😀 😀
Littlefinger may not be able to rock the Gandalf beard but I could see him in a pimp wizard hat.
Sansa might be a dose of Littlefinger’s own medicine. Can’t underestimate Sansa now. Stark siblings must know who betray their father.
Only bad thing with ep 9 was that Wun wun OF COURSE could/should have broken the ring around them.
Ozzyman is just hilarious to listen to, and such a genuine enthusiasm that his humour is never at the expense of the show. 😀
Great to hear Ozzyman!
I agree on Sansa. Those are my thoughts exactly! It was a strategic decision on her part not to tell Jon. It wasn’t the Vale that made them win, it was the surprise of the Vale that made them win. Otherwise it would have been a siege and they would have lost. In my opinion Sansa did good, even though she had to lie and a lot of people died (though a lot of it is on Jon). But it isn’t much different when Robb send 2000 men to their deaths in season 1 to outwit Tywin.
Awesome song in the link. Game of Thrones! Fuck Yeah!
https://youtu.be/jGNNazG8yyk
Another interesting article
Game of Thrones has a Sansa problem
“Schrodinger’s Sansa: she’s either Dim and Virtuous or Evil and Cunning. Right now — to everyone’s confusion — she’s both.”
http://www.theweek.com/articles/631406/game-thrones-sansa-problem
sums up nicely what most people have been talking about and why there are so many conflicting viewpoints.
You can still tell Jon about the Vale army and keep it a surprise attack. The point is to surprise Ramsay, not Jon. You have a surprise army charging to surprise the enemy, not your allies.
The Wolves of Winter,
Except those 2000 men Robb sent knew the whole plan. Whereas here it looks like Sansa sent them to slaughter without telling them she’s going to swoop in with her own army. I can’t imagine the Wildlings and the Northern houses allied with the Starks are pleased.
Flayed Potatoes,
My concern would be that Jon executes pre-battle planning about as well as a 4-year-old boy.
“Thousands don’t have to die.. just one of us. How about we settle this the old way? You.. against me. And a few thousand Vale forces that are coming in tomorrow. Ooops, did I say that out loud?”
Grayven Reyne,
Jon isn’t that much of an idiot. He’s not going to tell Ramsay all their plans. It’s ridiculous.
I think Lord Royce’s diminished power in front of Littlefinger was made clear in the first episode they were featured in this season. No, there are only two ways Sansa can go about this, IMO: 1) She marries LF – or Robyn, if that’s LF’s plan – and kills them both some time into the marriage or 2) She kills LF in this episode and, without wasting too much time, solidifies Lord Royce’s hold over the KotV. Then, by appealing to Lord Royce’s sense of honor, she gets them to leave Winterfell after declaring themselves as allies of the North. I doubt Lord Royce would question the death of LF too much – he obviously finds him as slimy as we do.
The Wolves of Winter,
Yeah, this exactly. I’m not a Sansa fan but this nonsense that she is responsible for thousands of deaths is just completely ridiculous. Ramsay’s entire strategy was based on having a 2 – 1 advantage. If the opposing army was equal to or larger than his he would have changed his strategy accordingly. Ramsay always had the advantage because he had Winterfell and Rickon to taunt Jon with. He could have held his army back and launched raids as he did with Stannis or he could have just waited for the weather and lack of food to take its toll on Jon’s forces before launching an attack on them.
Although if it turns out that all 62 of the Mormont army were killed I take it all back and Lyanna Mormont can burn Sansa alive!
Flayed Potatoes,
Well, I’m glad we could get that settled.
Jon and Davos make plans. Jon and Davos arrange army. Jon toss battle plans away at first obvious, middle-of-the-battlefield-with-everyone-watching trick by Ramsay. Jon lead force into trap, so Jon bad commander. Give Jon more knowledge to disregard and take chance on losing? Sansa say no.
Reunions,
Royce is certainly worried about Littlefinger’s hold on Robin, but not really worried about Littlefinger specifically. If there were a way to get a “corrected” story of how it happened back to the Vale.. Royce would kill Littlefinger 7 or 8 times.
Flayed Potatoes,
But did Sansa definitely KNOW that the Vale was coming? We were shown her sending the message to Littlefinger but were not shown that he responded to her. Maybe he did and we will find out next episode but right now we don’t know that so why are people acting so certain that she did know? Oh, that’s right, so they can blame everything on her.
So let’s say she isn’t sure. What happens if she tells Jon the Vale might be coming? Does Jon then sit around and wait for them? Other houses have already rejected or ignored their pleas for help so, no, he wouldn’t take the chance of them not showing up and the weather suddenly turning against them.
And let’s suppose Sansa knows for sure the Vale is coming and tells Jon. Then we have an entirely different battle scenario but still a battle where Ramsay has the advantage of holding Winterfell and where a lot of Jon’s army will die.
Bottom line – Sansa did not send anyone to ‘slaughter’.
Regarding what’s going on at the twins, what if Jaime and the Lannister army go all Red Wedding on the Freys? I don’t know why or how that would ever happen as of course, they’re allies and it would make no sense: but I would love to see it!
Come on ppl, dont need to drag the King of Crows & the Lord of Snow in the dirt to defend Sansa – as a general tactician all that he did in infiltrating wildlings and (despite Thornes mutiny) as LC of NW was all great leadership and initiative – this was his first major southern war – he learnt plenty; do NOT blame him for tryna save Rickon!!! Sansa wouldve if she could!!!
anyway : whats that White Bird??? Is Bran flying??
Unfortunately the audio wont work for me…if this is addressed can u explain what was said
Does no one think this is Jonno’s 2 nd major rebirth (parallel to what Daeny got early this season) – with him fighting out of the stampede to survive, retaking the seat of the North – (back to where he started S1, like Daeny at VD, but tjis time as K of all the North, as Daeny became Khaleesi-Supreme in her 2nd rebirth)?
Would make sense for this to be shown parallel with his actual birth in ToJ…
That would also mean to complete the AA prophecy he needs Lightbringer – dont you guys think something big could go down with Longclaw this ep for that??
Lord of Coffee,
Of course she knew. She arrived with Littlefinger. Do you think she took a random ride out in the field to get some fresh air and ran into the Vale?
If she tells him, they coordinate the armies so that the Vale is nearby and can attack sooner, even if something unexpected happens (see: Rickon). Of course, Sansa played right into Littlefinger’s trap when he mentioned Jon being her half-brother and having his own loyal army.
Grayven Reyne,
So trying to rescue Ned Stark’s son and the heir/lord of Winterfell is a bad idea? Tell that to the Northern houses following Jon into battle who are fighting to retake Winterfell and save the Stark heir. If Jon stays where he is he comes across as a greedy bastard who wants to claim Winterfell for himself.
I’m not saying Jon made no mistakes. But everyone is acting like Sansa has been 100% right all season long and that’s just not the case.
Che,
Maybe there’s some misunderstanding. I can’t see how else they’d turn on each other.
viki,
Great read, thanks for posting!
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I think the scene you’re referring to also demonstrated that Royce doesn’t trust or like Littlefinger and had to be forced to obey him. It tells me that Littlefinger’s support is very thin. I feel like only Robyn stands between LF and outright rebellion of the knights of the Vale.
Maybe at one time LF wanted to marry Sansa to Robyn. But not anymore. He knows she is smarter than he thought, and he couldn’t trust her. His only method to control and manipulate Sansa is to marry her himself, and keep a close eye on her.
So I agree. She ought to just kill him in this last episode and tell Robyn “poor Uncle Peter died in Battle.” That would be a nice shout out to Ramsey who used the same explanation for Roose’s death. LOL!
viki,
Great article! I agree!
Flayed Potatoes,
Sansa didn’t send anybody any where, Jon did. And he fell right into Ramsey’s trap. Thank the old and new gods Littlefinger showed up or there wouldn’t be anymore Starks or Wildlings. Or Mormonts.
Grayven Reyne,
Exactly, it reminds me of when General Patton got 300 allied soldiers either killed or taken as POWs by German troops in an attempt to rescue his son-in-law. Everyone knows Patton was a bad commander. Oh wait, that’s not true at all. That’s why the term fubar exist. Generals make plans and plans get fucked up beyond all recognition.
Now, Sansa put Jon, the Wall, and the wildlings in danger the moment she ran to Jon for safety from the husband she willingly married. To knowingly use the people who gave you shelter as bait is not the sort of Queen that inspires devotion as Tyrion keeps reminding Dany.
The Wolves of Winter,
I screamed when he started explaining Sansa’s reasons for holding back the availability of Vale forces. I didn’t even think about it that way, to not let Ramsay know the true size of their force in order to draw him out of the castle. FUCK YES SANSA.
Also, someone correct me if I’m wrong, but have we seen the scene in which Tormund says that line from the trailers(s), “I thought he was the one to lead us…… but I was wrong.”? Because I don’t think we have but I’m not 100% sure.
Grayven Reyne,
Mistakes were made by both. You cannot just blame it all on one. That is what the show is saying. Both of them made mistakes by not trusting each other fully.
Like Sansa said, she knew Ramsay, how his mind worked. So why then did she not try to warn Jon about this in all those months that they were together? Even if he would not have taken her seriously in the beginning, her repeated warnings would have had the effect. Why wait until the eve of the battle and that too, just straight accuse him of not asking her advice?
Secondly, if she had been open with Jon from the beginning, about meeting LF and him offering her the Vale support, things might have gone very differently.
Besides, let’s say the only reason Sansa kept quiet about the Vale Army when they were arguing in the tent was because she guessed Jon would fall for Ramsay’s games, and LF’s half brother jibe and her own trust issues had nothing to do with it, it still does not change the fact that she was willing to risk the lives of her brother and his army to give herself a better chance of victory. She had no way of knowing if Jon would be able to hold on till the Vale army arrived, her priority was defeating Ramsay. Jon risked his army’s life because he could not see his brother being hunted down. Sansa was okay with risking her brother’s and his army’s life if it meant she would have a realistic chance of defeating Ramsay. I would take Jon over Sansa in this.
Lyanna_Targaryen,
That still does not explain why Sansa had to keep that info from Jon.
We heard that Tormund line in the last episode. He was talking with Davos about kings.
Ever since Ned heard Bran shout Father at him outside the TOJ, I’ve had a feeling that Bran will use that power to influence a present day event at somepoint.
Maybe he sees a flashback of Littlefinger and Lysa conspiring to kill Jon Arryn and framing the Lannisters or, a flashback of Littlefinger talking Joffrey into executing Ned (would be great to see Kate Dickie and/or Jack Gleeson reprise their roles one more time!!).
Maybe then, while Sansa’s in the godswood, Bran is somehow able to communicate with her through the heart tree and he tells her how Baelish has conspired to destroy the Starks and the role he played in the War of the Five Kings.
Sansa personally executing Littlefinger in the godswood (Ned’s sanctuary), in front of the heart tree I think , along with the R +L= J reveal and Jon being proclaimed King in the North, would make for an amazing end to the Northern story this season – so many great payoffs – and then in the final scene, the Whitewalkers breach the wall, destroy Castle Black and slaughter every member of the Nightswatch – all except Edd who in the final shot, we see racing off on horseback to Winterfell.
Or, I could be completely wrong about everything!! Whatever happens, I can’t wait for Sunday nite to get here!!!!
I really hope the writers don’t stick her in a political marriage again, though. 🙁 It would be lazy writing – her status as a political bride has helped her survive four whole times already (?!) – and would just stunt her character arc.
And I agree with you that LF’s claim to power in the Vale is only through his grip on a flighty, mentally unstable adolescent who, let’s be real, probably wouldn’t even grieve his death much. As much as LF appears to “own” the Vale’s army, I think he’s actually in a very tenuous position right now – if Sansa is smart, she would take advantage of that PRONTO.
Littlefinger is in a sticky situation if he tries to actually do anything to screw the north. He has no hold over the Knights of the Vale. Lord Arryn does, and Littlefinger only exerts control by influencing him. Hell, all he did to get them to head north in the first place is tell Robin that Sansa was in trouble and it was Robin’s idea to go help her. He loses all of his power the second Sansa tells Robin how his mother actually died.
On the other hand, if he lets the Starks rule the north and Lord Arryn rule the Vale, while making himself their trusted friend and advisor, how is that not exactly where he wants to be? His goal isn’t to rule the North. He wants the throne, and to give himself a claim with any legitimacy at all, he’ll need the support of some of the land’s major houses. Alliances with House Arryn, House Stark, and House Tyrell are valuable in themselves, without needing to immediately turn around and screw them. Littlefinger is a patient man. He’ll wait for a much better opportunity to screw his allies.
There is one thing he’s missing, though. Nobody would ever accept him as king as is, no matter how powerful he becomes. He needs to marry into one of the great houses. Sansa is a pretty golden opportunity, and of course he knows she wanted to be Queen at some point. I don’t see what leverage he has to push the point if she says no, though. Knights of the Vale or no, the Starks have Winterfell again. What’s he going to say? Marry me or he’ll lay siege to the castle? They’ll die in the snow just as anyone else would trying to siege Winterfell, and they wouldn’t do that anyway. Ned Stark was practically Jon Arryn’s adopted son. The Vale isn’t going to turn on the North without provocation just because Littlefinger says so, and his leverage is severely reduced considering Sansa not only knows he killed Lysa, but I’m pretty sure she overhead Lysa’s confession about killing Jon Arryn, too. If she lets that out, he’s done in half a second.
ghost of winterfell,
Indeed mistakes were made by both (thanks for saying this) but also great, or at least useful, things were done by both: Sansa by realising that they needed that Vale army and swallowing pride to send the message (and then managing to hook up with it somehow as it moved in) and Jon by his actions for Rickon. Because he and all of them had indeed been trapped by Ramsay, so that if he did not gallop out to save the boy, he’d have been disowned by the North and probably the Free Folk too, and there would have been no army – and if he did not continue forward he’d have been instantly taken out by the arrows already in the air.
And not only taken out, but if he’d turned back, even with Rickon’s body, he’d have been killed by an arrow in the back. Which has its own implications, for North and for Free Folk.
No reason to favour or hype one or the other – both have strengths and minuses here.
This explanation of Sansa is I think equally problematic – in that she sacrificed her brother and his entire army to a 2-1 disadvantage knowing he could be killed, just to draw Ramsay out and withhold her advantage of an army? That would mean that she knew there was a larger army and, by extension, perhaps a means to save Rickon (maybe, maybe not) but willingly did nothing till lots of people (and maybe even Jon) had died.
It’s just…. if they want us to believe that, I think it would be really problematic for her character.
To be honest, the more I read Sansa’s expressions in the conversation with Jon, she’s BEGGING him not to attack. If her whole ploy was to draw out Ramsay, why would she seem so distressed. She didn’t tell him, but I don’t actually think her plan was to sacrifice him.
We shall see.
spaewife,
Yes of course, Winterfell would not have been won without either of their contribution.
KingCrowLordSnow,
Yes, it was a rebirth of sorts for Jon, I didn’t catch on to the symbolism until Kit stated that in behind the scenes chat, and in that context I now understand why he called this episode Jon’s story. As for Longclaw, the other day I read where Liam Cunningham was given the two truths and a lie & he starts to say something about the sword but stops…so ye I think somethin will happen tonight just no clue what but I do hope it doesn’t involve plunging into Mels’ heart, unless she’s the one to instigate it…
Adam,
THIS THIS THIS.
I’ve posted this elsewhere, but I actually think LF has significantly LESS leverage now than he did before the battle. People are speaking of him as holding all the cards, but the choice to ride in with the Vale before securing any concession means his bargaining power is diminished.
The Vale might be under his control because of SR, but the Vale is STILL loyal to the North to some degree. And the Starks now do control Winterfell. Everyone keeps saying the armies are wiped out, but that’s factually not true – we heard on the show how many houses there are still remaining that we haven’t seen, and not every single man on the battlefield died.
So what is LF going to do? If he demands a concession and doesn’t get it, is he going to turn the Vale army against the Starks and siege Winterfell? That’s just dumb for him. That is NOT his modus operandi either.
He’s much more likely to try and ingratiate himself with the Starks. I think he will first try to consolidate power around Sansa and thus himself. But if that doesn’t work, he will absolutely settle for being the power behind the throne, so to speak, for now.
Point being, I don’t think he has the kind of leverage he did before. He can demand payment, but at what cost if they refuse? Going to war versus the Starks? He’s not dumb enough to think the Vale would do that.
Littlefinger promised to bring Sansa’s head to Cersei. If he marries Sansa then he will be in open opposition to the Lannisters and, by extension, the Crown.
We heard him dismiss the Lannisters as a diminishing power back in Season 5, but it’s hard to know whether he’d want to openly betray them.
That’s not his usual style.
Unless he intends to hammer a final nail into the coffin of the Lannisters somehow as well.
spaewife,
I can see where he might have lost some respect if he did nothing for Rickon. But a commander in control of his emotions would have sent any of his cavalry, who were already on horse and would have gotten there sooner.
Nadia,
If Littlefinger does anything against the Starks, he will be in contradition to the order of the Lord of the Vale, which was ‘to help Lady Sansa’. Royce would have him in irons immediately.
Absolutely. And, whereas Sansa had some time for reflection, doubt, and action, Jon only had split-seconds for action. But if he had not gone forward, the North/FF forces would have been demoralised and (like Stannis’s troops) quite possibly melted away, which is what I meant by ‘no army’.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I think if Margaery Tyrell was available Littlefinger would kiss Sansa goodbye, treat her & Jon as allies, and “go for the gold!” LOL!
Grayven Reyne,
That is exactly my point.
Anyone who thinks LF can force Sansa to do anything is missing the point – he helped her without getting a return. Now that the help has been given, he has way less bargaining power.
He may have an preferred outcome, but if she doesn’t agree to it, he won’t get it. But he’s not going to war over it. Which means, most likely, whatever that happens he will be content to kind of insert himself as a Stark advisor.
All this stuff about how she “owes” him – she only owes him if it’s payment he can actually demand. The Vale isn’t going to go against the Starks now, LF or not.
HE owed HER. And now that debt has been paid. She’s not as indebted to him as people seem to be thinking. She actually has all the control now in what SHE decides to do.
Flayed Potatoes,
Yes, she still could have told him. But she didn’t and I think she feels guilty because of it and that that is what they are talking about next episode. Though of course I could be wrong entirely :).
I think she trusts Jon, but doesn’t trust his decision-making on this since he was already reluctant to fight. And it might also have to do with Littlefinger and keeping him away from Jon. In Mole’s Town Littlefinger already tries to create a rift between Sansa and Jon with that half-brother comment. And Jon doesn’t know Littlefinger and what he’s about, but Sansa does.
I’m not saying her actions are perfect, but a necessary evil to ensure their win. I’m no fan of Sansa, but I do love her character. Though that doesn’t mean much because I love all the characters and everything they bring to the story. Their personalities and strengths and weaknesses. It’s why I watch GoT.
Back then the Northern Houses were still very loyal to the Starks and probably willing to give their lives. Even the Boltons were still on their side. Now their not anymore and the alliances they made are fragile. If Jon and Sansa asked them to sacrifice their lives (they were already doing that actually) for a surprise attack they would have collectively gave them the finger.
There was no saving Rickon, sadly. Once they decided to fight, Rickon was doomed. And Jon was already going to fight no matter what.
Grayven Reyne,
True, but that doesn’t mean he can’t do harm to Jon. That is why I think Sansa might give in to his demands – to protect Jon.
The Wolves of Winter,
In the previous episode, when she arrived to the battlefield with the reinforcements and saw Jon covered in blood, surrounded and amid utter carnage you can see a flicker of regret on her face.
And when Rickon’s body was brought into Winterfell, Jon turned his back on her without saying a word.
There’s definitely tension between them right now which I think we’ll see them address in the next episode.
I definitely think Littlefinger will try to drive a further wedge between Jon and Sansa, however; whether before Jon and Sansa discuss their issues or after.
There are definite echoes in Jon (Ned Stark 2.0) potentially getting in the way of Littlefinger’s love/ambitions for Sansa (Catelyn 2.0). Littlefinger’s surely not going to stand by and let history repeat itself.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Yes, I noticed that too. She definitely feels regret and guilt.
And that’s a great observation with the similarities between Ned and Cat and Jon and Sansa. Haven’t thought about that.
First, I really enjoy the podcast normally.. But Ozzyman definitely turns it up to 11.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I hope that Littlefinger makes the same mistake as he did when he and Cat were kids with Sansa. So Jon turns into Ned’s brother Brandon 2.0. Because I could care less how many times he saves Sansa, he still got Ned imprisoned and eventually killed.
We know that with the King of the White walkers touching bran , the magic of the children of the forest hide out was broken and most think the same goes if Bran crossed the wall. But I’m wondering does being touch bring benefits to Bran, will he now be connected to the WWK . Will it actually make him stronger and be able to get into the mind of the WWK and help Jon and others with the battle before the dragons come. I can’t see the benefit just working for the WW? Everything that happened to Bran seems to have happened for a reason.
Listened a couple of times. Enjoyed as always, 🙂 but Ozzie has me thinking about Jaime’s fate. I had assumed he would be fine until after he had completed the valonqar prophecy…but, D&D did leave that out of Maggie’s prophecy. I’m afraid they’ve removed that whole storyline from the show, so yes, Jaime and the Lannister troops could be in trouble.