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“Winter is coming, you know what’s coming with it. We cannot face it alone.”-Jon Snow
From the HBO Game of Thrones official synopsis “Dany makes a difficult decision in Meereen. Jon recruits the help of an unexpected ally. Brienne searches for Sansa. Theon remains under Ramsay’s control.”
Kill the Boy is written by Thrones veteran Bryan Cogman and directed by Thrones newbie, prolific television director Jeremy Podeswa. The trailer promises trouble for Sansa, unrest at the Wall and plenty of Drogon action as Tyrion and Dany’s storylines start to collide!
Check out the official photos here.
Geoffery: As a book reader the title alone has got me super excited and I’ve been really loving all the Wall scenes this season. I’m also hyped for another Cogman scripted episode. But when, oh when is Sansa gonna catch a break?
At last! Winter is coming…
Astonished at how people are immersed in this stupid Sansa storyline.
With Stannis on the march, plenty of Bolton action and Bryan Cogman on writing duty I feel a good one coming on!
All Hail Cogman!
m.e,
I don’t think it’s going to turn out to be stupid at all. Obviously she’s going to run into Theon. I think she’s going to take Jeyne’s place.
At 0:25 there is a stone man on the left.
At 0:25 there is a stone man on the left. So excited!
The Sansa arc is intriguing.
Stone men looks scary!!!
No!!!
m.e,
That is a petty notion. A lot of tv is stupid.
Kill the boy—seems misleading. Aemon’s speech, and the potential harm to pregnant Walda seem obvious.
I have a feeling someone will die this episode, and it won’t be a boy after all, but a girl.
See ya Shireen.
Tatters,
So I can’t think that her storyline is stupid? Because it is, to me. They’re using Jeyne and Theon’s storyline to give Sansa something to do and to make her faux “enpowered.” How boring.
I used to like Sansa but I can’t like her anymore. Not after that TWOW chapter and not after this season. D&D could have found some other way to boost up their favorite character. Now, all Sansa’s storyline is conposed of is fanfic and pandering.
Mister Stoneheart,
It seems highly unlikely! I mean how and why? Stannis is leaving how will they explain a sacrifice before departure? On what purpose? On the other hand I am tempted to take the Kill the boy advice as a suggestion to kill Olly sooner than later.
m.e,
D&D know where Sansa’s eventual plot is heading
Hyped for this episode — a lot of setup has been done this season and we’re going to start to get some payoff! Although I didn’t really expect it going in, I’m really enjoying this season a lot (probably because I finally don’t know where a lot of storylines are headed).
Wonder when we’ll get
Show watchers must suffer >:).
Is that Ramsey kissing someone’s neck? It doesn’t look like Sansa to me. This should be a very exciting episode and a fast one with all that is going to be included.
I agree with just about everyone. Stone men = Scary stuff.
BUT….there be dragons!!
I wonder who is going to kick the mortal bucket this episode…because someone dies in every episode, sometimes many someone’s.
It probably will not be as trite as that. The show (like the books) needs to boost Sansa quickly. So far, they’ve done a good job of it: the character this year is almost unrecognizable from the clueless, confused simpleton of the first 3.8 seasons and the first 3.9 books. (Sansa finally got a clue in the last part of her last Crows chapter, if I recall: and the Sansa of Winter looks like the Wizard of Oz figured out what to do with the Scarecrow! I mean, cleverness and wit from Sansa?!?!?) The show (and hopefully the Winter book) needs to do to Sansa what Season 1/Book 1 did for Daeny: and I’m betting we are going to get that here.
To glean where they are going with this, we need to keep the story in mind: kill the lesser, become the greater. In Theon’s case, the end of last year set up the probable arc: Reek -> Theon. In Sansa’s case, it pretty clearly is Lost Heiress -> Lady of Winterfell and/or Player of the Game. The two arcs probably are going to line up: Sansa’s elevation from Lost -> Lady/Player and Theon’s elevation from Reek -> Theon will rely on the same plot.
The big wildcard in this is Brienne. She seems to be on a Stumbling Guard -> Saint of Vows to the Dead arc (which I suspect that GRRM was trying to do in the book, although I never could be certain). Her storyline is almost certain to dovetail with those two also.
I have no idea if this will work or not, but the odds on it being worse than the book (particularly where Sansa and Brienne are concerned) are vanishingly small. Of course, being better than “awful” is not too much of an accomplishment, so let’s hope that it’s actually “good.”
Winter is Zeno’s Paradox we get halfway there each season, … we’ll never get there!!
Wimsey,
Glad to know you are onboard with the Sansa arc this season Wimsey. A couple of months ago you were adamant about the show doing her Vale plot and didn’t believe the Ramsay/Sansa marriage rumors.
Looks like D&D have managed to execute so far as to make you enjoy the changes
That curly girly hair…
That silly fur coat…
That silly red eyed giant white direwolf … ohh wait.
#whereisghost?
KrakenDaughter,
HOLY SHIT. Seeing that thing scared me half to death. Like looking at old photographs and thinking you see the shape of a specter in a mirror scary.
And of course Jorah and Tyrion don’t even see it because hello Drogon. Which leads into the theory that (book thing):
HelloThere,
And somehow that involves her taking over Theon and Jeyne’s plot? Give me a break.
Phyllis Ashley,
yup! I agree with that theory as well. I wonder if he will
Wimsey,
Agreed on pretty much all you said here. I’ll add that my former book-informed trepidation is subsiding slowly. Even though the events playing out are different in the books, we are essentially getting the same theme in that LF is trying to back Sansa in such a way to rally the North. For sake of the show, I get that it works, we’re invested in the existing characters, etc. As a Sullied show-watcher, I’ve pretty much gone through my stages of grief and have entered the “Acceptance” phase.
I have no idea whether or not I’d have anything relevant to say about it, or if anyone even cares for that matter, but I consider writing an after-season retrospective following my original guest post on WotW about the show surpassing the books being a bad thing…
Turncloak,
Good chance. Either that, or he’ll
I have no idea what role grey scale has to play in the overarching story, even as a book reader – but apparently it’s way more important than I ever would have guessed. Either that, or the writers just thought it’d be really interesting to play on screen (and I agreeee, I’m so stoked for Sunday).
Phyllis Ashley,
Yes can’t wait! Though they have also brought up greyscale more and more in relation to Shireen so I’m very worried about her. I just hope she gets far away from Mely Sanders
Well, the conjecture was amazingly illogical: but for all that, it proved to be correct. My biggest objection was, after all, to the supposed “evidence,” all of which was all circumstantial or looser: there were any number of scenarios that it supported. (In my world, you don’t get credit for being “correct” if you don’t get to your conclusions properly!)
That written, I think that it was another classic case of someone (here, me!) not appreciating: 1) just how much time “solo” plotlines take; and, 2) not making the leap to see what could be done with Sansa+Theon+Brienne. Indeed, I now see Brienne as the biggest “winner” in this: her monotonous plotline and vague storyline from Crows has been greatly tightened; the show already has clearly stated what her part of the story is, and that’s cool.
However, when trying to puzzle out “why” they would do it (motive is important, too!), it simply never dawned on me that it would help make Brienne’s storyline coherent, too, as well as provide Sansa with a proper storyline. Had someone suggested that, then I would have been much less dismissive: they now are killing three birds with one stone. (But, hey: I didn’t think of it either; and that is why none of us will ever get paid to adapt novels to comprehendible TV or movie series!)
Looking forward to:
– really new episode…..
– Cogman and Podeswa work
– WF storyline (because it is so hard to guess what will exactly happen, it is almost as being unsullied)
– naked Myranda (i really prefer when real characters get naked instead of whores in brothels played by porn actresses and Charlotte Hope is very sexy)
– some controversial scene that will make seven days till the next episode interesting
Wimsey,
Relief! You just killed for good so many dead end monologues about the move to send Sansa to Winterfell and the futility of Brienne’s arc.
m.e,
U do know that if D&D followed the books, this season wud be the first time we would’ve seen theon since season 2 😉
Sansa “got a clue” over the course of her whole story arc, not suddenly at the end of AFFC. She was not a “confused simpleton” throughout ACOK and ASOS.
Whereas that was definitely the case on the show, which cut virtually all her character development and active plot and then turned her into a “player” at the flip of a switch (and then still has her travel half the length of the Kingsroad without giving a single thought to where they’re going, which is dumber than anything Sansa did in the books).
Turncloak,
Episode 7 according to recapped.com. And recapped.com is never wrong.
zod,
I am surprised Ramsay doesnt rape Sansa. but only has sex with her.
Wimsey,
What so you didn’t like Brienne’s AFFC arc aka “I’m looking for my sister a maid of 3 and 10”? 😉
Wimsey,
I think the Ramsay Sansa predictions just goes to show you how in tune are we are with D&D’s process. We may have not had good evidence but we definitely have good instincts. The show can’t just have as many plot lines as the books and needs to consolidate plot lines and characters frequently. Radio Westeros calls this the “law of conservation of actor”.
If TWOW releases before season 6 I think the fandom can make educated guesses as to what plotlines/characters will be consolidated thanks to having 5 seasons of GOT TV under our belt
GRRM,
Wow, Peter Dinklage’s face when Tyrion finally sees a dragon!!!! I can’t imagine GoT without him. Peter Vaughan as Maester Aemon is still looking fairly spry in the photo so I hope D&D have heard my tears from afar and are giving us viewers more than one more scene with him this year (contrary to the name of the title of the episode).
Sean C.,
I think that all depends on what Sansa does afterwards. She’s hardened up and will play whatever long-game she has to now, regardless of what she has to endure. No one wants to witness or endure the worst of the worst of human actions (murder, rape, torture, war, etc.) but all of those (and more) are part and parcel of the real world and the world GRRM is building. GRRM has been pitting Sansa up against LF and potential suitors in the Vale so if D&D have changed it to Ramsay (and then LF?) then so be it. If any character can survive torture/rape/abuse and later thrive, it will be Sansa. (However it may repulse us readers/viewers but, dammit, will we ever cheer when she claws, bites, and spits her way to the top, defeating those who wronged her and her family!)
Cogman’s episodes for Season 4 were my favorite, so I have high hopes for these next two episodes. I hope they aren’t too high.
Lots of book spoilers ahead, but please, refresh my memory: “Kill the boy” refers to…
I always thought that Dany would come to the Wall in Westeros first, using her dragons to fight the Whitewalkers since dragon-forged steel is the only thing we know that can kill them. And since the dragon has three heads. And since this is the song of ice and fire.
If that’s the case and if Jorah brings to the Wall an outbreak of greyscale, that would be in keeping with the foreshadowing of the freefolk’s fear of the disease.
If Stannis, Melisandre, Shireen, and company are marching off to Winterfell, what motivation will there be to send the baby and Aemon away? Is it because Stannis and company are coming back after Winterfell rather than marching south?
Sean C.,
Maester Victor,
Sansa has a story, and it doesn’t involve being raped. Indeed, GRRM said that was one area he was not interested in going with his POVs (which raises issues regarding Dany in book 1, but that’s another matter).
dothrakian raven,
Sean C.,
Have u not read the ridiculous horror that is the life of Jeyne Poole? Sansa’s storyline will be no where near that horrific.
I thought Sophie Turner said she didn’t get naked this season, nor was she asked too.
I loved Brienne’s AFfC chapters but fully understand how her inner journey does not translate to the screen. I am excited to see what they do with her at Winterfell, although I fully believe she is going to be tortured, probably by Ramsay. That’s a big part of her journey. Maybe Gendry will row in and save her, but I actually think Theon might help her escape and she’ll want to take Sansa with her. Sansa will ask her to go make a deal with Stannis, putting Brienne in conflict of oaths, wanting to avenge Renly and help Sansa.
But Oh baby, can’t wait for the fat pink mast!
HelloThere,
And yes, it’s not in the books. This being an adaptation, the books do matter, and Sansa is not raped in the book.
HotPinkLipstick,
Sean C.,
I haven’t read the recapped spoilers. I have only seen the leaked Bolton family scene and got the idea. I keep myself unsullied as much as possible.
In any case the Ramsay situation gives the possibility to Sansa to make him dance in her own music, it gives plenty of room for manipulating his weaknesses and the tension between him and father to be Roose and thus reversing her position in KL.
dothrakian raven,
Spoiler tags.
Sean C.,
Why is it atrocious?
Aemon: Kill the boy Jon Snow, kill the boy, get a haircut and start looking like a man.
Sean C.,
Sorry, I thought I had put them… But I fixed it.
Sean C.,
again…
all i see is “doesn’t happen in the books”
Defloration does not necessarily mean rape.
HelloThere,
Uknow0,
Sean C.,
Again! The only argument I read in ur posts is “doesn’t happen in the books”
I need these with subtitles(even english subtitles), since my first language isn’t english i can barely understand their pronunciation, and i know i’m not the only one.
Anyways, nice preview! is good to see Aemon on good health.
If an arc is 8 chapters long, then I like it to get at least 4 chapters high by the end, and preferably 6-7; this one got about one chapter high…..
Sean C.,
Sansa cannot take Jeyne Poole’s place: Sansa is a lead character where as Jeyne is an incidental one; in the book, Jeyne exists only as a device for Theon’s
arc. Whatever is happening here is going to be serving Sansa’s story. Now, obviously it won’t be as in the books: if only because with only 3 chapters, GRRM never gave Sansa a storyline in Crows/Dragons. (He seemed to just be starting one and then Halley’s Comet went one fifth of the way around the Sun….)
Again, the show has set up very nicely what the story is going to be this year: everyone is going to try to be something bigger than they were. (Start humming “Heroes” if it helps!) So, this is going to involve Sansa killing Barbie and becoming Boudica (or something like that: I’m just fond of that alliteration). Plot exists only to serve story: so, expect a plot that fits this story, and certainly do not expect a plot (Sansa subbing for Jeyne) that does not fit it!
Moreover, don’t be surprised if this adaptation is closer to the books that it would appear at first blush:
Sean C.,
She turned into a player “at the flip of a switch” because her entire environment (finally) flipped. She was in no place in KL to demonstrate what she learned all along from Cersei, Shae, Margaery, Olenna… about physical weapons, actual weapons, charm and killing. During all those chats, we’d have scoffed if she said out loud, “Yes I’m absorbing everything your teaching me so I can use it one day when I get out of here and find my own people to manipulate.”
In S05E05 Jon explains Olly that winter is coming ‘n the Watch can’t face the winter alone. Alone? Yes, the true king Stannis gives a crap about the winter, he leaves for WF to fight his war. Obviously he feels responsible to protect the 7 kingdoms from attacks by people (Free men), but not from attacks by white walkers and wights. The true king or the selfish ‘n scared king? It seems Free men will defend the Wall ‘n the kingdoms, not Stannis, the ‘true’ king.
Humiliation.
Sean C.,
I am sorry it is not clear at all. There are many possibilities. I named one about Fat Walda. It can be something that involves Myranda and the dogs. I mean why are you so obsessed with the rape scenario? And even if it is so how does this reduce Sansas arc to crap? What is the logic behind it?
HelloThere,
Wimsey,
Yes, there were plenty of places in KL to demonstrate that. Such as in her own plot, e.g., when she should have been planning her escape. The show did not show her learning anything, and treated her as a joke — turning around and trying to claim she was actually learning the whole, we just never saw it, is terrible storytelling.
I did a bit of research on the subject of sex scenes for under age actors and characters. The short version is that under UK law, which covers Northern Ireland where a lot of the programme is filmed, any actor who is under 18 in real life or is playing a character who is (a) supposed to be under 18, regardless of how old they look, or (b) appears to be under 18 even if they are supposed to be older, is legally a child and showing any nudity at all is technically illegal, even in a non-sexual context (having a bath for example). Implying something is infinitely preferable to showing it. It’s a lot more complicated than that so if anyone’s interested I can explain it further but that’s the basics.
Sorry for that ridiculously long sentence. What I’m trying to say is that Sophie, playing a child character, can’t be shown naked, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be, or isn’t, implied. (Like having a bath; we see her bare arms but that’s it. We assume she’s naked because people don’t take a bath with their clothes on, but we don’t see it, it is a crucial distinction legally-speaking.)
Oh and although I didn’t look into bestiality (!), I get the distinct impression that any attempt to realistically show it – again rather than imply it – is a complete non-starter, regardless of the ages of anyone involved. Any kind of bestiality is totally illegal. Again (again) this is under UK law but I gather that the laws in the USA are similar in relation to underage nudity, at least in general terms.
Theon makes a fine Jeyne Poole already.
Sean C.,
So what you’re saying is that the people who know the story are actually destroying the story and you’re basing that on something you don’t even know if it happens in the series. Seriously?
Sean C.,
You presume too much. There’s almost certainly some uncomfortable shit coming for Myranda based on that shot of her in “High Sparrow” and Ramsay’s “You know what happens to people I get bored with…”
You’re being very charitable with GRRM’s use of rape in the books (Dany and Drogo, and actually Sansa has been sexually assaulted twice in the books at least- the KL mob and Marillion), but you are assuming the worst from D&D, not just what they’re going to do, but how it will be handled and how much they care about the character. These sort of uncharitable prejudgments are so frustrating, and it makes me think that no matter what they do with the character and how they handle it, you’ll find some reason to hate it, given how quick you are to judge it before it even airs!
I am becoming much more dubious about the claims that Sansa is raped I really don’t think it will happen, I also hope it doesn’t
KrakenDaughter,
Holy shit nice find! I didn’t think they’d include the
but it seems they will. Now I’m REALLY excited to see what happens this episode.
Also I’m STILL flabbergasted they’d spoil Selmy’s death like that. What was the point of leaving us off at a cliffhanger if it’s spoiled in the first shots of the preview? These people need to get their poop together.
Hodor Targaryen,
Wait wat? When did Marillion “assault” Sansa? Didn’t he just try to hit on her and was immediately tossed away?
Sean C.,
I’m claiming I saw it. When she nearly pushed Joff off the bridge is where Dark Sansa was born, in my opinion.
hodor,
Whether they “know the story” is really irrelevant, given that they’re changing it, and the presumption that they’re changing it in ways wholly consonant with whatever future information they have isn’t supported by the facts, including that they’ve been planning this since season 2 (nor have they presented it in such terms).
I was one of the people who didn’t believe they would send Sansa to Winterfell, but at this point the content of this story is pretty clear.
Phyllis Ashley,
I agree fully but I feel that by the. End of the season will all be so happy with the hard home stuff and the way it was all filmed we’re all gonna still love it enough to call it the best show on tv
Sean C.,
There changing it but at the end all the story is there everything that happens at every location is there and none of the truly important elements are changed. So far so good
Ginevra,
Dany will first of all turn her eyes on KL…as this was foreshadowed back in 2×10 and then eventually the Wall+WW.To be honest,whole prophecy about three headed dragon has been downplay a lot(prophecies in general too).Maester Aemon will most likely die at Castle Black via one of the trailers.It looks very much like proper NW funeral and there is sadly only one candidate(in the future another FTW another one,but). 🙁
As for Sam,good reason would be Oldtown and Jon would want Sam to become Maester.Oldtown has been mentioned already in previous episode.It makes sense with a stop in Braavos(Arya).
Dany was raped by Drogo in season 1
Cersei was raped by Jaime.
Its still better than what took place with Jeyne.
Why did they add it in? For shock value and to make people talk and also because the Vale arc is unfilmable.
Who should be blamed?
Martin obviously. He knew it would happen, he did nothing to stop it and still hasnt finished his books. He has lost his own story to two mediocre TV writers. Sad.
JCDavis,
Ramsay’s mackin’ on his girlfriend, Myranda. I’m really, REALLY hoping she doesn’t make it though the end of the season. Of course, I said that last season too.
Sean C., I had been in agreement with you about
in Season 5, but the 5×05 family dinner clip posted changed my mind.
I do think that
Regarding Myranda…
The interesting thing about Myranda at Winterfell this season is
Personally I think story of Tyrion and Jorah will be straight forward with no
Some folks are reading too much into 2 seconds clips from the trailer. Tyrion/Jorah storyline has been streamlined great deal from the book and I believe it will stay that way.
Anon,
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2pd8yv
Look at time 4:07 on the cliff behind tyrion… the stone man actually moves
Plus there has been so many stonemen references….
M,
What makes you think that they are changing it? J what do you think the story is? (10 words or less, please.)
It certainly looks like “kill the lesser, become the greater” to me, given either book or TV. If they are to keep the story AND make Sansa contribute to that story (which she really fails to do in Crows/Dragon), then they need to change what Sansa does. We need to see clear evolution of her character, and we need to see her in some situations where (like all the protagonists in this story) she cannot be two things at once and must choose between one or the other.
Incidentally, you are very incorrect about Sansa now equaling Jeyne. Jeyne is an incidental character: she is part of the plot, not part of the story; Sansa is a main character: she’s part of the story as well as part of the plot. The TV series already has made her a major protagonist this year: at this point, it is simply impossible at this point to reduce her to what Jeyne is in the books. This will be about Sansa, not only about Theon: and that is a night and day difference.
Sean C.,
Give us some credit, please. While I like the Sansa in WF storyline I would NEVER argue that happening to her would be “good” in any way, shape or form. And I will be one of the first to ream D&D and new asshole.
Sansa being raped is not a 6 on a scale of 1-10 in trauma. That is how Sophie described this traumatic scene she has this season. Being raped would be a 10/10. And after the shit storm last season, there is no way they will go anywhere near depicting rape in the show again, particularly the rape of a main character, who also happens to be underage.
Also, I find it funny that in two separate threads we have fans complaining that D&D show favoritism towards Sansa/Sophie and in the next one we see people complaining that they don’t respect or like the character. This fandom never ceases to amaze me.
Sean C.,
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Apparently, there’s no nudity warning for 5×06, either. I’m guessing that’s why Sophie Turner downgraded the trauma to a 6/10; nothing really gets shown, and the trauma is implied rather than depicted (with a focus on Theon’s expressions instead of the act itself).
And maybe, just maybe, they cut her plot to escape from S2 because she will have similar plot in S5 and they wanted to show her evolution?
You haven’t thought about that?
PS I’m really tired of Sansa’s and Arya’s fanatics…
Sean C.,
What people are saying to you is: “D&D know ALL the major plot points until the end of the story but you don’t” Hence changes they make to the story serve to meet those beats. As they’ve said ad nauseum in interviews. You can argue with how effectively they meet the plot points once we’ve seen them but you can’t argue that they aren’t meeting those plot points BEFORE we’ve seen them and when they KNOW what they are and you are completely speculating on what you THINK they should be and what you WANT them to be.
Geralt of Rivia,
Actually
M,
They didn’t
Well, for me this is confirmation that Sansa will
Sean C.,
He meant are you sure the scene that Alfie was referring to was not the Sansa scene but potentially another one involving Walda.
Ms Hope’s last scene of the season involves the threesome wedding night, when something goes terribly wrong, if you read certain rumors about the script, Which is a good thing, means Myranda will be back next season, unless something bad befalls her
in that bedding scene.
Concerning Stannis, it’s obvious the Northern lords attack his camp, remember, Stannis is a Southron Lord and even the Mormont’s, staunch Stark allies see him and his army as an invader. The North would prefer to team up and destroy him, then worry about the Bolton’s later.
I never said they don’t like the character. I said they’ve done a bad job of writing the character.
M,
So your argument is that the writers are going to show how Sansa has “evolved” by having her do something that her far-less-experienced self had already managed?
But as I said, this was already in the works in season 2, well before they got “all the major plot points”, by their own timeline.
Sean C.,
As appose to GRRM’s classy treatment of sexual violence where he casually litters his story with numerous rapes and gang rapes. Hell, he even turned Tyrion into a rapist in ADWD.
I’ll wait and see how they develop it.
I know its disgusting and sickening, especially because it’s Ramsay, but I don’t think this is too different from what GRRM has planned for Sansa and Harry the Heir. She’s going along with a plan of Littlefinger’s to marry an asshole, and will have to go through having a traumatic wedding night as part of that plan. I mean, didn’t we think that there would have to be a consummation from the get-go once her marriage to Harry/Ramsay was announced?
JamesL,
Book purist’s hypocrisy….
tyjon,
I thought I recall people saying that Myranda will be in the finale 2 episodes based on her CV/resume.
OT but theres a interview with Liam Cunningham where he says that he will have a few scenes with Shireen this season
http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_season_5_davos_and_shireen_relationship-2015-05
Also could someone please tell me how to code spoiler? Thanks!
Hodor Targaryen,
JamesL,
But the reddit spoilers tyjon is referring to have already been shown to be inaccurate, and don’t match with recapped.com’s spoilers (the latter site having a tremendous track record for accuracy.
Squirrel,
That’s interesting. So either they say their farewells in episode 5, or people were right that that photo of Shireen beside her horse indicates that she’s going with Stannis’ army.
Sean C.,
Again, you don’t know that…
It will be an equivalent of her book Vale storyline with Harry and it will have nothing common with what Jayne had to endure. 6/10 on traumatic scale sound about right. Remember Sophie said she enjoyed to do her attempted rape scene in the second season while she was horrified to have to sing during Blackwater episode. She have her own scale.
Well, Cersei was raped, but she is now the most powerful women in Westeros.
GaiusB,
Spoiler buttons are functional using shortcode[*spoiler] Insert spoiler here [/spoiler*] to blur comments. If you do NOT want to be spoiled, click the “Hide” Button before proceeding!
remove * and type the text in between
I think that people are looking at it backwards. What GRRM and B&W are doing is showing what a world like this would be like, warts and all. And the “all” here is mostly more warts, with some sores, oozing lesions and boils to boot. Too many people look at fantasy worlds as being like Middle earth: too many fans fantasize about living in these places. They should not do that. Besides the implications for your psychological health, worlds at this point of cultural evolution were horrible places: and common rape was a big part of that. (Mass executions, slavery, serfdom, religious inquisitions, etc., all went with it.)
Heck, just watch Mad Men: that world was less than 50 years ago, yet they are very blunt about how common workplace rape was then. (Indeed, things might not be much better in some areas today.) General sexism as well as racism are blatant. It might be mesmerizing in the same way that a bad accident is, but it’s not glorious.
If B&W portrayed a Westeros in which you would want to take a vacation, then they would be undermining a lot of stuff that goes into GRRM’s stories. This is a horrible world with a lot of horrible people: and if B&W (or GRRM) skimp on the horrible part, then how is it different from Hobbiton?
mau,
Thats a pretty terrible thing to say, lol
Please…
lets not mention that scene again.
Why are there still Arya fans to begin with? She’s ugly and the scenes aren’t interesting at all. Who wants to watch a bitchy kid sweep every week? At least Sansa has a new, interesting story and good looks. She may even get a nude scene too. Win/win.
Or you know, Roose might want to First Night Sansa to put Ramsay in his place. That would be a Roose kind of thing to do.
It seems Sansa will know something awful has happened to Theon, and she thinks Theon killed and burned Bran and Rickon.
It might play out exactly like GRRM has it planned for her in the books. GRRM…you know the guy who writes lots of casual raping and occasional dog raping.
dezis,
Proper trolling needs a bit more subtlety than that.
HelloThere,
I just wanted to say even if Sansa gets raped, that doesen’t mean that she won’t be very powerful…
Sean C.,
Where is the lie? Tell me. I think we can all acknowledge that WF is the most intriguing part of s5 and that Sophie is hot.
Look at where Ramsey and Myranda are. Does that look like the same place where Bran spotted Jaime & Cersei?
Sansa could be going through various memories and incidents at Winterfell. The cut implies she overhears, prompting her to look up.
Listen to what Ramsey says. ‘You remember what happens to people who bore me.’ Doesn’t Myranda present Ramsey with a loose end?
Who really sees Stannis taking Shireen when he leaves for Winterfell? It’d be too stupid for a guy who’s told her, ‘You’re Princess Shireen…. My daughter’.
If there is a flip on the episode title….. We’ve seen the still of Selyse on the ground. (How many thought that was her being upset at Shireen being sacrificed?) She’s not the most likeable of people. What if…..? Selyse claims Olly knocked her over. She would say those words, wouldn’t she?
Either Jon assigns Olly to be Shireen’s guard (likely to be very popular with Selyse, right?)…. or, challenges Selyse to do what she’s demanded of him. (Whoever passes the sentence should swing the sword.) Another option – Maybe Shireen steps in to defend Olly.
JCDavis,
It’s clearly Myranda. Do you even GoT, bro?
this is getting a bit crazy… chill everyone! only 2 days til we find out in episode 5 🙂
Sansa could never consent, internally, to sex with a Bolton, given how she’s shown she feels.
I’m guessing they consummate it, Theon is forced to watch, Sophie doesn’t have to show any nudity, and it can be ugly by implication. Sansa knows it is coming and steels herself for it. Then everyone is actually right.
That doesn’t rule out additional scenes (Walda, Myranda, Ramsay torturing Sansa in other ways or random people) which would register high to Iwan and Alfie on the horror scale.
Someone on here suggested pre-season that maybe Myranda’s name choice wasn’t a coincidence, I’m more and more convinced she will play the jealous threat to Sansa that appears to be brewing in TWoW.
Hoyti Von Totiy,
Thank you!
Since we have come to this fortuitous scenario with Sansa at WF prematurely (imho) with the lovely Boltons, I don’t want Ramsay (or Myranda) whitewashed at all. I hope Sansa truly has the struggle of her life with this overt monster, I hope LF grossly misjudged this risky situation, I hope Roose is truly dangerous to everyone around him, and I hope Reek is unpredictable in his reaction to the Ramsay-Sansa interaction.
I don’t know what to expect….but Kill the Boy….
Whether or not it makes sense, we’re told in the interview with Liam Cunningham that Shireen has scenes with Davos, which means either that the scenes are in episode 5, or she goes with Stannis’ army.
So far, Aiden Gillen, Sophie Turner, Peter Dinklage, Kit Harington, Lena Headey, John Bradley, and Stephen Dillane have appeared in every episode this season.
We haven’t had a GOT actor appear in all 10 episodes of a season since Season 2, when Dinklage was the only one to show up in every episode. In season 1, Sean Bean (technically, though it was just his body), Lena Headey and Jack Gleeson showed up in every episode.
Will the streak continue? The photos from the other post show that Sansa, Tyrion, Jon and Stannis will all show. So that’s at least 4 of them.
In season 4, the Lannister 3, Brienne, Margaery and Sansa showed up in the first 4 episodes. Tyrion missed episode 5. Marge ran her streak to 6 and then disappeared entirely.
Sansa will be in the first 6 episodes. And I love that.
mau,
She’s becoming a fan favorite. I’m glad that people are rallying for the beautiful queen in the north. Sophie is probably the best main actress of the show so she deserves to shine. And her plot is great while the character is a kickass beauty (and the only Stark with potential since that house has been useless otherwise.)
Yes. I heard many people hated Sansa before, but they now like her storyline.
mau,
By the end of the season, I predict that she’ll be in the top 4 favorites. Her, Jon, Dany, and Tyrion.
tyjon,
If she takes WF, she will be more popular than Dany.
mau,
I think you’re right, actually. Maybe more popular than Tyrion too, since he may be a bit dragged down by Dany’s storyline. But, either way, Sansa’s popularity is great! She will be the main character in no time.
dezis,
She will never be more popular than Ser Pounce.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
She already is though?
Managed where? In the show? No.
And she didn’t manage nothing in the books. She was manipulated by LF.
Now, in WF, she will really plot something. Alone.
m.e,
They are pushing Sansa’s WF plot points / development into this season.
And I don’t see why Sansa finally starting to make some decisions of her own and not be a wet blanket anymore has to be considered ‘faux empowerment’ and ‘pandering.’ Maybe it’s just a natural step in the evolution of this character…?
dezis,
Ser Pounce was becoming too popular. D&D wrote him out of the show and gave Sansa his screen time. They can’t have anyone upstaging their precious Sophie.
Greatjon of Slumber,
Once it became clear that Dinklage was in episode 502, I become certain he was going to be in every episode this season. I also thought Headey would be, though I know some think she won’t be in episode 505; if she is, I expect she’ll be in all of them. At this point I think the only episode Turner may miss is 509, depending on how they divvy up the season’s climax; if not, she’ll be in all of them. Harington may be in all ten. Bradley, doubtful, and I’m sure Gillen won’t be. Probably not Dillane, though that’s possible.
She hasn’t made any decisions of her own this season. She’s being led around by the nose by Littlefinger.
Managed in the books, and this was cut from the show. I find the idea of the writers showcasing Sansa’s supposed development by having her do something she already did much earlier in the books rather bizarre. And she did manage it in the books; that others were involved doesn’t negate her participation and the resources she showed in so doing.
I expect great finale for Dany and Tyrion this year. And I belive they will sail to Westeros in S5E10.
For now.
mau,
People don’t really care about those two this season though. Most care about the Wall and Winterfell.
It is not bizarre. The show is not the book. Why would I care what Sansa did in ACOK or AGOT? The show needs to be consistent with itself, not with the books.
They didn’t want to show similar plot twice.
And as you like to say, she was led by the nose by Littlefinger in ACOK. She didn’t do anything.
If we don’t get more than one scene between them in episode 5 it could be one was cut or that Davos at some point gets back to the Wall too.
Insofar as it belies the idea that Sansa is undergoing some great “player” evolution, when she would only be catching up to what her supposedly much less experienced book version has already done. Not to mention, of course, that she’d only be escaping a scenario that any reasonably intelligent player would never have put themselves in to begin with.
She took a great risk by investigating the offer, and by assessing her odds and deciding between the several options presented in the course of that novel (and later). Obviously Littlefinger was trying to orchestrate things too.
Hodor’s Bastard,
Well, if there is not any internal struggle, then it does not belong in these stories!
What people also are leaving out of the equation is what Sansa has learned from Cersei. Their trajectories are similar now.
I don’t care about the books and I think that her “plot” in ACOK made her look even more stupid. She thouht Dontos was knight from the songs. Her Florian… And in the end he was just paid by LF.
And I don’t understand why is important for TV show what GRRM wrote 20 years ago.
The show don’t have time for her to investigate Dontos. She didn’t believe LF in S2 and S3. That was enough.
This is different story.
All your books and you still don’t know.
D&D wrote this line for reason.
I thought it was obvious that Sansa is the one playing LF and Roose.
mau,
The show doesn’t *
And it isn’t doing such. The Sansa-in-Winterfell plot has more holes than
.
At least we can pass of Jaime’s irrational attempt to infiltrate Dorne as a stupid and impetuous mistake made by a man standing next to a hot woman. The same cannot be said of Sansa, who would be better off simply helping Stannis directly rather than helping the Boltons, magically undermining them with no plan to do so, and hoping Stannis rewards her for her magic undermining rather than burns her at the stake.
Jaime’s girl,
Thanks for providing a different perspective on how this might come down. I am cautious about putting too much faith in the actors’ comments.
Hodor’s Bastard,
I don’t know what to expect either. They need to tell the story that needs to be told. Then the question becomes: do they go all in or do they pull back?
Mad Men has realistically portrayed rape and sexism, particularly in Joan’s storyline. And it has been hard to watch at times. Sometimes our world is not so different from Westeros.
I’m not sure how much realism is too much realism. And I still have a lot of questions about the “Sansa in WF” story line. At this point, I will just wait and see how it plays out.
Does anyone remember the wedding night for Tyrion and Sansa? Sansa willingly started removing her clothing preparing for “not shirking her wifely duties”. And would have gone further had Tyrion not stopped her. I don’t think she would turn prudish once married to Ramsey either. She may not like it, but she understands what a woman is supposed to do once married. Now HE may get ugly during the scene and that is what the interviews refer to. We are all going to have to wait and see……just a few short weeks!!
BeautyBrinne
Thank you.
I really don’t want to discuss this over and over again. I don’t see any problem with that plot and I think that that is the strongest storyline this season.
If you have daughter you know that nothing is irrational if you are tyring to save her life.
And don’t say that he never treat her as a daughter. That is the point. He is becoming a better man.
And Roob should have simply made alliance with Stannis and war would be over. Baratheons and Starks were allies always.
But then, this story would be over.
And again, the same question, what if Stannis lose?
And, no, LF couldn’t wait, because the Boltons need Sansa now.
Absolutely! This is an excellent point. Let’s not forget Cersei’s life lessons to Sansa during the Blackwater battle.
LOL….Bro? I have poor eyesight. We clear? (you are supposed to reply with “crystal”) Thanks for playing.
Sean C.,
I don’t recall Sansa doing anything like that in Crows. Littlefinger walks Sansa through his little scheme involving HtH, but that is as close as GRRM gets to anything like that. And then we waited 15 years….
Sansa was aware that Dontos was a loser. But he was just the only person offering help, and she decided the risk was worth it rather than doing nothing (which is what the show version did).
Wimsey,
I was talking about ACOK, not AFFC (where she also makes calculations). Sansa’s decisions to meet with Dontos and in assessing whether or not to take his help are pretty significant initiatives on her part, as are her subsequent actions to (for instance) refuse Tyrion’s offer of sanctuary within the Tower of the Hand so that she can continue to meet with Dontos and hopefully escape. Sansa was learning to play the game all the way through the books, not just in AFFC (the Vale is only where her active tutelage begins).
That was not “willing”. She did that because she knew she would be beaten if she didn’t cooperate.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
So good to know I’m not the only one on #teamserpounce!
D&D hate Ser Pounce, and it is ruining the whole show for me.
I hope one or both of them have a kitty cat at home and said kitty cat pees on their pillows!!!
Yes, sure. Stannis is undoubtedly the winner of the battle of Winterfell and after his glorious victory burning Sansa as a punishment for her having been in company with the Boltons will be his top priority. In any case it seems to be pointless to make people understand that Sansa’s place in S5 is at WF and not knitting cardigans and eating lemon pies at the Earie. And we saw that this is a choice she took not only because LF persuaded her to take but because she realised on her own that her place is at WF. As a consequence this oppens a lot of possibilities because of the fact that there are many ongoing games at WF. Sansa has to find her own pace and to do her own stuff. And yes Sansa has learned from Cercei because she was staying at KL for 4 seasons so it is not necessary that the Blackwater lectures was the only source of learning from Cercei.
She thought that Dontos was knight from her songs, not a loser. I read that chapter yesterday.
And in the show Dontos didn’t offer her help.She hadn’t the same chance as Sansa in the books. That doesn’t mean that she is stupid. Simply, she has had less options.
And every character in the show had less options , because the show has less time.
LF does offer Sansa help in S2, and she knows that he is a liar.
So, she is more smart than Cersei in S2.
JCDavis,
Your Breakfast Club reference just made my day.
While I still have some reticence over the Sansa in Winterfell plot, I’m amazed at how it has been winning me over. I also think there are parts of it which may be in TWOW, although some of the circumstances would be different, of course.
Yikes! I’m all in. Full measure.
OT but I was rewatching the scene with Ellaria and Doran and I noticed that Myrcella seemed to have a necklace on, but it’s hard to tell. Anyway, Cersei is wearing a different necklace than usual.
I wonder if the viper-in-a-box was just a set up by Cersei to manipulate Jaime into going to Dorne.
It’s still very unclear how the Sand Snakes and Ellaria would have gotten that necklace and sent the threat in the first place, especially when Myrcella is (literally) under Doran’s watchful eye.
Everyone knows this is all make believe, right? If someone is raped onscreen, someone didn’t ACTUALLY get raped in real life. Some of the reactions here are mind boggling. Get a grip, don’t watch if it makes you uncomfortable.
Here’s a terrific HQ shot of Charlotte Hope as Myranda looking fearfully intense and forboding – look at her hands covering her belly. I think she’s pregnant with Ramsay’s child, hence the anxiety http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/38400000/myranda-game-of-thrones-season-5-charlotte-hope-38458284-1846-4164.jpg
Adam,
From Ellaria’s reaction to Jaime being in Dorne, and the general tenor of her conversation with the Sand Snakes, it doesn’t really sound to me like she sent it. If she had, wouldn’t she say something like “Aha, they must have gotten my message”? But then, she clearly reacts to Jaime’s arrival like it’s an unwelcome crimp in her plans, not something she was anticipating.
Oberyn mentioned last season that his daughters get along with Myrcella. Obara must have stoled it at one point and gave it Ellaria.
I don’t think I can wait 1 day 23 hours 28 minutes and 10 seconds for the next episode.
No they were not. Sansa was inveigled into doing that by Littlefinger through Dontos. Remember, Sansa turns down all of those offers because Dontos convinces her that he and only he has her interests at heart: and Sansa buys it because the scenario matches the Florian the Fool fable. Indeed, Sansa does not decide to not follow the alternatives: because she blabs to Dontos, Littlefinger is able to take those options away from her.
The first evidence that we get of Sansa thinking in the strict sense of the word (as opposed to operating on reflexive belief) is in Crows. That’s when she actively begins to decide to leave the foolish girl Sansa in the Eyrie and ascend to the brave bastard persona of Alayne.
And the change is pretty drastic: the Alayne chapter that GRRM just posted reads nothing like any of the Sansa chapters. Instead of self-centered thoughts of confusion and dismay, we get actual observations of other people, and true insight and cleverness. All we got in Kings is Sansa bemoaning to herself that it makes no sense why the world is like it is, and what had she ever done that the gods would let this happen to her (because, you know, all of that pain and suffering in Westeros was ultimately about Sansa…). Her thoughts are completely passive and reactionary: active and initiating thinking does not begin until the tail end of her last Crows chapter, and then is fully blossoming in the Winter chapter.
Well, if the rumors are true, then i have only one thing to say.
Sansa = New Cersei = YMBQ
Arya = Valonqar
That is why they put that prophecy in and made Cerseis arc parallel to Sansa and also why they had to cut the valonqar bit because it means little sister of queen.
Also, Dany will die at the Wall. They already showed this in Season 2. So she wont be queen.
Sean C.,
You’re ignoring the fact that in Ep 02 she made the decision to refuse Brienne, and in Ep 03 LF told her that if she gives the word they’ll turn around but she chose to seek vengence.
Sean C.,
Right. I have to wonder if it’s just another one of Cersei’s schemes or if it’s part of different game, maybe by Littlefinger or Varys. Ros did have a lion necklace from Tyrion…
KrakenDaughter,
Yep. But no, Littlefinger told her to do all that. *sigh*
LF is undoubtedly using her as a pawn in his games, but it’s clear that she won’t stay his pawn for long…
People are manipulating Sansa, or trying to, throughout. But that does not negate Sansa’s own choices, and her attempts to assert herself where she can.
That is simply not true. Sansa is making actual observations about people all the time; even at her most ignorant in AGOT, she has a glimmer of a read on Littlefinger. In ASOS she actually gets closer than anyone to the root of the problem in the Tyrell/Lannister alliance, though she does not have enough to go on to follow this line of thought to its actual consequences (but then, given the circumstances, that’s hardly surprising.
As to the latter part, yeesh, are you seriously criticizing a hostage whose family has been murdered and who is constantly being tormented by their killers of being self-centered for thinking mainly about her own pain, when she’s not allowed any venue to express it to other people?
“But even the most dangerous men can be outmaneuvered…and you have learned to maneuver from the very best.”
As I think back to Littlefinger being called one of the most dangerous man in Westeros, I think he sealed his own fate with the above line.
(As I was looking up who said that about Littlefinger (Varys), I ran across the full quote from season 3: “Littlefinger is one of the most dangerous men in Westeros. He was born with no lands, no money and no army. Now he has the first two, how long before he has an army? If Robb Stark falls, Sansa is the key to the North.” Wow!)
Someone posted this in another thread; Martin wrote a turkey with Crows… I’ve been rereading a lot of the books and it seems to me more and more that there’s an inherent nihilism in the work- not like Sarte or even Camus, which is literature and not fiction or fantasy- but even in those nihilist exhistential works, there is a humanity to them, a frustrated but deeply human endeavor that does not exist in martin’s. The more martin writes about rape and bestial rape as such without a single redeeming point of counter reference to that, the more lose the words get, and the more I think martin is writing this stuff for shock value. Like I said, it’s nihilism not good writing or great fantasy.
You are talking about a guy who burned is brother-in-law at the stake over a religious dispute, and burned Mance for not grovelling. Do you really think there is no chance that he would burn someone for siding with his enemies?
Sansa faces a whole host of risks on her current course. If Stannis wins, she could be burned alive, or the Lannisters/Crown could re-conquer the North and kill her. If the Boltons win, they are likely to kill her after she provides an heir, and it is possible that the Lannisters will either demand her head or even outright depose the Boltons if necessary in order to get at her. There is also simply the risk of dying in the upcoming battle she is throwing herself into. In contrast, her becoming “Wardeness of the North” requires a fine needle to be threaded – Stannis needs to win, choose to grace her with the position despite her apparent treachery, and the Lannisters/Crown need to fail to reconquer the north. I don’t see how you can come up with her odds of dying being less than 50%, or her chances of becoming “Wardeness of the North” are greater than 25% given the path she has chosen.
If she had chosen to simply declare for Stannis and ask the North to rally for him, in contrast, her chances of dying would be much smaller. If the Boltons were to pull out an unlikely win (much less than a 10% chance in my opinion), she’d be likely to die, as she would be if Stannis won but the Crown reconquered. The odds here are pretty low, as her declaring for him BEFORE the Battle of the North would mean that fewer of Stannis’s forces would die, and that the battle would be a rout where fewer northmen would die as well. Maybe there is a 20% of reconquer, but that is stretching it. I have a hard time seeing how she’d have more than a 20-25% chance of dying if she directly aided Stannis. In the meantime, the odds of a Stannis victory go to nearly unity, as do Sansa’s chances of being rewarded with a “Wardeness of the North” title as long as there is no re-conquer, an event which is unlikely. So her odds of becoming Wardeness are high, on the order of 65% or so.
I don’t know about you, but if I were a betting girl I would certainly chose a 65% chance of winning and 25% of dying (10% other) over a 50% chance of dying, 25% chance of winning, and 15% chance of being married to the murderers of my family until they murdered me in turn (10% other). Sansa is making an insane bet, and by extension LF is as well.
That being said, I prefer D&D’s version of the story. Much more human, much more nuanced and in many ways less meandering- it helps that most of the actors are superb.
Chad Brick,
If Stannis won and chose to burn Sansa, he would risk turning the entire North against him, and he is depending on the North to rally behind him to take the Iron Throne. I don’t think there is any way he would take that chance. As far as the Boltons killing her after she produced an heir, it’s possible, but a lot can happen in the time that takes. I agree Sansa faces some extraordinary risks, and I’ve no doubt it will be a dark and twisted journey with no guarantee of a non-tragic ending, but for the chance to possibly avenge her family, I can see it. What else does she have?
Word. The generic brothel nudity does nothing for me; it’s much sexier to see someone with whom you’re already familiar.
Just like to point something out that occurred to me:
Adam,
I’m laying bets that the Viper in a Box to Cersei was sent by Littlefinger!!!
It’s just the sort of mind-fuck he does to set houses against one another… ie … getting Lysa to send the message to Cathlyn about the Lannisters poisoning Jon Ayran.
Motive been to keep the Lannisters attentions focused towards Dorne rather than what he’s setting up in Winterfell
Chad Brick,
Even the Season 2 Stannis (who was more stern, I think, than S5 Stannis) didn’t hang the lkrds that sided with Renly over him. He’s not going to burn Sansa because she obeyed her uncle and married an enemy. Florent was killed because he refused to take down his idols…I’m not defending Stannis’ religious persecution, but that was a direct order that was disobeyed, very different from Sansa’s situation.
Sansa is safe for the reasons LF made clear: she is the last living Stark, she is too much of an asset to be killed.
Pop culture, it’s all about getting WTF moments.
Sansa’s decision to take revenge on Boltons for killing her mother ‘n brother is not an act of ‘thinking in the strict sense of the word’. Namely, to revenge is to operate/act in reflexive manner.
Would anyone believe me if I said I dreamed about a shot of the Baratheon Army leaving Castle Black like that weeks ago? It’s like that time ’98 when I dreamed I was watching a Star Wars film that featured a stampede of animals, and then, when the very first trailer for The Phantom Menace came out, it actually featured a stamped of animals.
Cosmic!
Chad Brick,
You got an answer already but I will give it a try too. Stannis is not a psycho pyromaniac and not obsessed to burn of all the people Sansa. Sansa Stark is sister to Jon Snow. She has n’t allied with the Boltons, she plays the game whose rules can change anytime according to various circumstances. Stannis’ brother in law and Mance didn’t change their minds when they had a chance but lets say that Stannis wins the BoW and the naive question that Sansa’s life is hung upon is do you follow me Stannis the true king or stay faithful to your psycho husband. Do you think that Sansa will stay faithfull to Ramsay if of course he is still alive?. Or do you think the first think that Stannis will do is to burn Sansa without interaction? I mean GOT is supposed to be somehow a complicated piece of work of politics, strategy, drama etc how all this fit with the notion that Stannis is just a pyromaniac and Sansa the mother of stupidity?
Furthermore the Lannisters are in no position to demand anything. The Lannisters are shadows of what they used to be. If the Boltons win the BoW they will probably be a more powerful family than the Lannisters. So the scenario that the Lannisters will demand Sansas head and they will get it is a deduction from S4 and now we are in S5 where quite a few things of politics have drastically changed. Again if Roose wins he will not be so stupid to kill Sansa as she will still be more valuable for him alive in order to deeper establish his power in the North. Then there are other factors too. The Winter is coming, you know. The North Remembers, Jon Snow, LF, Brienne etc. Sansa’s life is a very complicated issue in this work to be taken lightheartedly as if she is a tertiary extra as you wildly fantasise. That doen’t mean that she will not suffer along the way. But Sansa knows it. When she was on the cliff with LF she took a decision and now she is determined to play the game where she belongs. She is not a pawn to anyone more than the others are to her.
If the winter is coming at the pace of the Others, they have nothing to worry about for the next 10 years.
Stannis burning her is not the most likely outcome if he wins the Battle of the North. Nor, however, is him handing her some “Wardeness of the North” title. He has no reason to trust her and less to trust Littlefinger. Nor is there any reason to believe that northern lords would be tripping over themselves to fall in line behind Sansa (Stark Lannister) Bolton. In fact, the day LF and Sansa showed up in Winterfell, a half a dozen lords would have gotten on the raven, rang up Cersei, and be negotiating a price for Sansa’s head (lordships, land, return of hostages, “Warden of the North, etc). Given that ravens take a few days to travel between the north and horses take a month, there would be a few rounds of give and take before LF shows up in the capital. Thus his trip is absolutely suicidal in any sensible story. I suppose a typical northern lord might at firs think that Sansa is some sort of Lannister scheme. One note to Cersei would take that idea right off the table.
On her current course, she is not safe if Stannis wins and very unsafe if the Boltons win. If she were just to aid Stannis, she would be safe if he won, and him winning would be very likely. She’d pretty much be guaranteed to get here “Wardeness” title. The only question is whether she, Stannis, and any of their other allies could protect such a title from the crown. In her current state, she has to worry about getting killed in the battle, getting killed by the Boltons, the Boltons giving her up or being crushed by the Lannisters for their treason, northern lords betraying her to get back at the Boltons and curry favor with the crown, or Stannis being Stannis and burning her for her (apparent) treason or for worshiping the wrong gods. Oh, and after all that, even if she did get her “Wardeness” title, she’d still have to defend it from the Lannisters anyway. Thus, her current path has ALL of the downsides of simply helping Stannis, plus a whole lot more. The upsides (the slight potential for a short, miserable life as a Bolton baby-maker in the even of a Bolton win) hardly offset this.
As for her chance at “Wardeness”, if she helps Stannis, only one thing need to happen
Stannis wins (very likely, > 90%)
After that, she just needs to hold it with an essentially unscathed Baratheon army and a northern army that avoided a civil war
On her current course, to get her “Wardeness” title, she has to
Survive the battle (95%?)
Stannis wins (70%? Certainly less than above as northerners will be divided)
Convince Stannis of her trustworthiness (30%? Most likely case is that he just pockets her but doesn’t entrust her with any power).
After all that, she has to hold the north, but with a bloody Baratheon army and a northern army that likely spilled a lot of its own blood as some factions sided with Stannis and some with Roose.
It is obvious that she is much more like to obtain and hold the Wardeness title in the first case.
So much less like to die, much more likely to win? Why isn’t she doing this? And to think, she and LF have the Vale in their pocket too. I haven’t even analyzed their option to crush the Freys (which would cause a Bolton collapse).
Apparently the Getty Museum is recapping GOT with works from their collection-
It’s quite brilliant for art nerds like me!!!
http://observer.com/2015/05/httpobserver-com201505the-getty-is-recapping-game-of-thrones-episodes-with-medieval-art/
Most likely scenario 90%: Stannis wins and in all his fury thrusts himself in the palace, grabs Sansa and prepares to burn her because she is Stark, Lannister, Bolton, Arryn and because her aunt fucked with a Targaryen, her uncle married a Frey and lastly because she had a chat with Margaery. She represents all that he hates. Then Melisandre knowing that Sansa is still Jon Snow’s sister has a last word with her asking to help her conquer Jon in exchange for her life. Brienne who all this time is lurking behind the bushes eavesdroping is very satisfied with this development. Sansa in all panic accepts the offer and Melisandre burns Stannis instead (thus the scene with Selyse on the ground). Melisandre leaves for the Wall to get Westeros greatest fuck before the Winter is coming and Sansa stays at Winterfell escorted by Brienne who now is her hand. But not only that Sansa has been transformed to a true red priestess aka the Red Sansa which of course in S6 will bring her in conflict with Arya. LF who after his brothel is demolished by the FM and he is financially ruined and rejected by the Valley lords comes back to WF in the hope to get the only asset he thinks he has. But all he gets is a memorable time at the pyre lit with great pleasure by Sansa. 🙂
Am I the only one who thought the direction in episode 4 was actually absolutely awful? Like, really, really bad?
Who was the director?
No Arya again?
I have to skip another episode and wait another week? That means ive only seen two episodes so far this season (out of 5). Might just wait til the season ends and then just watch all of Arya’s scenes
Winterfell is no where near the most intruguing. The whole thing doesnt make any sense and brings me out of the show when i watch it (plus,nothing has actually happened yet. Sansa has met the Boltons and had a few conversations with Littlefinger). Kings Landing, The Wall and Arya have all been much better in my opinion
Chríss,
The only one? No. However, you definitely are in a minority, particularly once you discount the “that was not in the book” crowd.
Chríss,
Can you give us some examples? I mean, where do you base your criticism? Is it the camera work, the angles, the placement of the actors and actresses, the lighting, the use of the sets? And why?
You are.
PFFF, SANSAS + LITTLEFINGER = MOST EXCITING POWER COUPLE IN WESTEROS.
m.e,
What do you mean? Are you referring to the editing and choice of cinemtography during the shots at the end of the episode? A couple of the shots were sloppy and the editing somewhat confusing, but other than that the camera work and directing generally served their purpose well.
REPOST:
I was initially off put by the seeming illogic of Littlefinger sending Sansa to Winterfell, but as I think of it more, I think some of his game can be unearthed.
Firstly, it looks like Olyvar is going to be a key witness for the Faith to the indiscretions of Loras (and if he makes things up Margaery). However, recall that Olyvar is in the employ of Littlefinger, and was previously directed by Littlefinger to seduce and spy on Loras, at which he seems to be succeeding admirably.
Next, Cersei received a viper with a necklace in the season premiere. She claims that there are only two such necklaces in the world, but she might be unaware that Tyrion gave just such a necklace to Ros—another one of Littlefinger’s agents. Littlefinger is also necessarily aware of Myrcella’s presence in Dorne and fear for her. Meanwhile Ellaria and the Snakes (good band name) seem surprised and annoyed that Jaime and Bronn are in Dorne, rather than satisfied their plan worked. Littlefinger sent the viper box to separate Jaime and Cersei and further her descent into madness.
Add to this Littlefinger’s connections with the Queen of Thorns and their shared engineering of the Purple Wedding, as well as the imminent return of both to King’s Landing and it becomes quite clear that Littlefinger has control of the situation in the capital, and can pull his strings to bring about Cersei’s downfall. Indeed, he almost seems to expect her summons.
So why send Sansa to Winterfell?
Because whatever happens to her, he wins. He firstly succeeds at removing her from Lannister clutches, while at the same time manages to destabilize bothe the Lannister–Bolton and the Lannister–Frey alliances. Furthermore, having Sansa, having a Stark in Winterfell, manages to destabilize the current Northern dynamic. Most Northern lords will remain loyal to a Stark, whether she is married to a Bolton, or independent, or wardeness under Stannis. For the few lords not loyal to her or the Boltons, the ravens sent to King’s Landing will continue to hurt Cersei and her regime, while having little tangible impact in the North.
If Stannis wins, Sansa rules the North under him and Littlefinger continues his ascent.
If she enchants Ramsey, she can gain power that way.
And if it all fails and Ramsey harms her in his Ramsey way, Littlefinger can spread that news and Sansa’s maltreatment can serve as the catalyst for a Northern rebellion, especially because Winter is Coming, and the Starks have long guided the North through the winter.
Regardless of what happens, Littlefinger can continue to organize chaos in the capital and in the North, and with the Tyrells forced to back Tommen against Dorne, and with Cersei’s paranoia leading to that war the situation destabilizes further and he continues to destroy the Great Houses that spurned him.
His endgame is chaos, because chaos is a ladder, and the climb is all there is.
m.e,
Therefore it’s stupid? You don’t have to like it, but provide some reasons other than personal gripes with D & D. Maybe you should re-read the books and try to follow the story more and not the details? Jeyne was basically there to serve as a plot device for Theon’s redemption. I’m sure you remember that Theon gets some of that through just exploring Winterfell and hearing voices in the weirwood trees. You also have signs of a greater Northern rebellion through some non-pov incidental characters who hate the Boltons and Freys. But those folks haven’t been introduced in the TV series (aside from GJ, who still hasn’t returned). That, my friend, is where Sansa could come into play a large part in, both as a redeemer for Theon (a more effective one, at that)and as playing a larger part in the Northern rebellion against the Boltons and communicating that aspect to the audience in the TV show. If the show doesn’t utilize her effectively in those manners, then I’ll be in agreement with you that the Sansa-plot was a stupid waste of time.
You know nothing, m.e
Chríss,
You don’t have anything to say positive about the show ever so i’m not surprised you have this opinion,but no i’m sure you are not the only one because you see there are a lot of idiots and morons in the world especially on the internet so that wouldn’t be impossible.
That’s a really good point about Sansa and Brienne benefiting a great deal from the changes, as the show takes two of the weakest arcs in Feast/Dance and completely reworks them.
My only fear is that, in putting the focus on Sansa and Brienne’s characters, they’ll steal too much away from Theon.
I’m excited to see Sansa in Winterfell, really. But I’d like to see a few Theon scenes where it’s not just him playing a supporting role. The fact that he’s appeared in one episode out of the last six makes me pretty sad.
A couple of short excerpts from Thronecast, Sky TV’s (outlet for GOT in the UK – the official one anyway) commentary programme on GoT have been uploaded to Youtube (so anybody interested, Google can be your friend). Ian McIlhenny gives a definitive answer on show Ser Barristan’s fate – and I think I can say this without it being a spoiler, Iean Rheon (sp??) says folk need to beware Ramsay when he has his charming face on. Apologies if I’m reiterating information somebody has already given.
It will be interesting to see Ramsays development this season as he has two antagonists, his father and Sansa. And of course Theon, the sleeping volcano maybe…