In tonight’s episode of Game of Thrones, Daenerys takes action, Jon Snow makes a huge decision and the Boltons have the worst family dinner ever which is saying a lot in Westeros.
Spoiler Note: This post is for those who have read the A Song of Ice and Fire series. The post and the comments section will contain spoilers! If you haven’t read the books yet, please check out our non-book-reader recap. Thanks!
Last week’s episode ended with a cliffhanger (that was spoiled by HBO and several press outlets but I digress) that left the lives of Daenerys Targaryen’s most dedicated guards at stake. “Kill the Boy” wastes no time in confirming the fates of Grey Worm and Ser Barristan Selmy: Barristan lies in wake on a slab while Grey Worm lays unconscious and tended to by Missandei.
A grieving Dany blames the rich families for the massacre committed by the Sons of the Harpy, and has their noble family leaders dragged before her dragons- including Hizdahr. One begging master is thrown to the dragons (in a gnarly burning and tearing- nice job, VFX people!) and the others are terrified by the display of power. Hizdahr shows some guts, declaring “Valar morghulis,” and the khaleesi lets all the remaining masters go…for now.
Whenever Daenerys switches to Valyrian, it’s like she taps into some inner firepower of her own. I like it a lot.
We swing from one Targaryen to another, finding Maester Aemon in the Castle Black library with Sam, hearing news of Dany’s actions in Slaver’s Bay. Jon arrives to seek the old maester’s wisdom in acting on a tough decision. Aemon encourages Jon to take the action he knows he should, even though it will make half the men hate him (because heyyyyy, they already do! When you’re 100 years old, you don’t have to be diplomatic).
“Kill the boy…and let the man be born.” And Unsullied viewers breathed a sigh of relief, because the episode title wasn’t literal. We hope.
Jon resolves to seek an alliance with Tormund, to gain the support of the wildlings. The big ginger is reluctant (the lord commander is having a bad month with redheads) but he convinces him that he wants them on his side and is willing to let the wildlings safely pass beneath the Wall and settle on the south side. Tormund relents, and says the people are mostly up at Hardhome- and he’s not going up there without Jon Snow. Jon agrees to the deal.
The men of the Night’s Watch take the news of this alliance about as well as anyone would expect. The prominent leaders within the Watch, young Olly his steward, and even Jon’s friend Edd all reject the decision to work with the wildlings. All of Jon’s support has melted away, it seems, putting him in a precarious position.
Brienne and Pod doggedly continue to pursue Sansa, with an eye out for her safety. Now that she’s arrived at Winterfell, they can rest though. Brienne befriends an old fella who remembers the Starks and she admits her allegiance to Catelyn Stark. She finds a way to get messages through to Sansa if need be.
Ramsay and his torture girlfriend Myranda are having intimate time when she admits her jealousy about his new fiancee. He had promised to marry Myranda back when he was a bastard, but he’s obviously not living up to the deal. Surprising exactly no one, Ramsay is not the most sensitive of boyfriends and disregards Myranda’s insecurities about Sansa’s presence. He threatens to get rid of her if she becomes boring, and since I suspect boring people get chased through the woods as human targets, Myranda perks up and redirects them to angry sex.
The servant woman who told Sansa “The North remembers!” carries a message to her this week to light a candle in a high place if she needs a help. Presumably she’s a pal of the man Brienne met. Sansa wanders around Winterfell, casually viewing high towers (hey is that the one Bran fell off? edit: Yes it is!) and runs into…Myranda.
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Myranda buddies up to Sansa and then directs her to check out something that will stir up memories down in the dog cages. (I don’t know if I’d follow Myranda’s direction since she sets off creepy alarm bells, but being around the Boltons, Sansa’s alarm bells must be going off at all times.) Ignoring the sketchiness of the situation, Sansa goes down into the cages and in one finds a man…Theon Greyjoy.
No, it’s someone who once was Theon. He shakes his head at his old name, and tell her she shouldn’t be there. Sansa hurries away.
Reek painfully confesses to Ramsay that Sansa saw him in his cage. Ramsay toys with him, making it seem as though he’s going to torture his hand, before forgiving him.
Ramsay appears to be on his best behavior initially at the family dinner, toasting his fiancee, but then his torment of Reek really begins. He forces him to apologize to Sansa for murdering her brothers and then suggesting that Reek be the one to walk Sansa down the aisle at the wedding. Roose accepts the suggestion.
Walda reveals that she and Roose are expecting, and Roose believes it will be a boy. Ramsay seems confused because he wasn’t supposed to be unhappy at this dinner, just other people.
Talking after dinner, Ramsay is upset at the possibility of being displaced by the new child. Roose shares the story of Ramsay’s conception: he raped a miller’s wife and hung her husband, and thought he should’ve whipped the woman and thrown the baby in the river when she showed up with Ramsay. Only Roose saw that Ramsay was his son, and so he kept him.
I think this is what passes for touching family time in the Bolton clan.
Anyway, Stannis is headed for Winterfell, and Roose needs Ramsay on his side.
Up at Castle Black, Sam and Gilly talk books in the library (Citadel namedrop! Dare we hope?) until Stannis interrupts. He knows who Sam’s father is, the notorious tough guy Randyll Tarly. He quizzes Sam about his White Walker experiences and the use of dragonglass. Stannis encourages Sam to keep reading up on the subject.
Stannis and the flaming heart cavalry ride out of Castle Black, with Shireen and Selyse along too. Apparently going into battle is less risky than hanging out in a castle staffed mostly with convicted murderers and rapists. Shireen isn’t scared though- but Davos admits, he is.
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Grey Worm wakes after remaining unconscious for three days, and finds Missandei by his side. She confirms Ser Barristan’s death, and the Unsullied soldier turns away from her. He admits to feeling ashamed, and when pressed, he explains: he doesn’t feel shame at being wounded, as it comes with being in war. He is ashamed because when he about to die, he was afraid- he was afraid of never seeing Missandei again. Overwhelmed, Missandei kisses him in response.
Later, meeting with Daenerys, she offers counsel. Barristan suggested mercy, Daario thinks Dany should kill the masters, and she wonders what Missandei thinks. Missandei helps her see that she has more than just one choice or the other- she can come up with her own new ideas as well, and that she does.
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Daenerys visits Hizdahr zo Loraq in his prison cell and admits her error in ignoring traditions and not bringing the city together. She resolves to open the fighting pits as he’d requested. And to forge a bond with the Meereenese she’ll marry one of their people- the one on his knees already before her.
“I am…a person who drinks.” Yes, Tyrion. Well said.
The Tyrion and Jorah Boat Show carries on, with the still-tied-up Tyrion inflicting his wit on sullen Jorah as they steer toward the ruins of Valyria. Tyrion ruminates on the history of the Doom of Valyria and the city that fell.
Cruising through the remnants of the city, suddenly overhead is a flapping black shadow- a dragon.
And the distraction of the dragon keeps them from seeing the danger ahead among the ruins.
Stone Men, driven mad by greyscale, drop off the bridges into the water and onto their boat. They fight them off, Tyrion hampered by his bound wrists. Jorah hits and stabs at them, but the Stone Men are hitting hard, and then Tyrion is knocked into the water.
Struggling to untie his wrists, Tyrion is dragged down into the water by the Stone Man, deep into the river, and everything goes black.
Until a moment later, Jorah’s face flickers into focus, and we see that Jorah has rescued Tyrion from the river and pulled him to shore. The boat is lost, but they’ve survived. They have no choice now but to continue on their journey on foot. Jorah makes sure Tyrion wasn’t touched by the infectious Stone Men. He’s fine though.
Jorah trudges away a few feet before peeling away his sleeve to look at his wrist- and the stiff patch of greyscale already forming on his skin.
Highlights:
Jorah gets stoned: That was a spooky little trip through Valyria (some people will fuss over geography, I’m not bothered) with a cool dragon sighting. I thought the whole sequence was well-directed and having Jorah gets greyscale makes sense. Since we have no Jon Con on the show, it seemed like someone needs to get it and he was the most likely candidate. It’s good drama for Iain Glen.
Dany reacts and then acts: Time will tell on the show whether it was the right decision, but dramatically it’s interesting to see Dany react with grief, using her dragons to make a statement, but then be proactive about a political decision, and her choice to make a marriage. And Emilia Clarke handles angry Valyrian so well- I just really enjoyed her scenes tonight.
The Targaryen connection: Connecting Dany and Aemon from one to another was lovely. Makes you wish Daenerys could talk to Aemon and hear his stories as Sam gets to. Peter Vaughan is wonderful and I wish he had more screen time.
Grey Worm lives & Missandei advises: I would’ve hated to see both men lost in the fight, I like Missandei’s scene with Dany and I enjoyed the sweetness of their moment together. Always a nice counterbalance when you have an episode heavy on the Bolton ugliness.
Michael McElhatton: Roose and his incredibly messed up “I’m definitely your dad, I could’ve thrown you in the river after I raped your mom but I didn’t so cut it out.” What an absolute monster of a character but what an incredible actor.
Score! : I loved the music tonight, particularly the recurring use of Grey Worm and Missandei’s theme. It just struck me as very well done tonight.
Updating to say I completely missed Stannis nitpicking Othell Yarwyck’s grammar during the Night’s Watch group scene during my first watch, and now that I’ve seen it, it’s my favorite thing ever.
I didn’t love it:
At The Wall: A lot of talking, not a lot of doing. I didn’t hate it- this was a very strong episode. But the Wall segments were very talky, and occasionally felt stagnant.
Jealous-Myranda: I’m not that interested in this plot point. It’s not the actress’s fault. It just feels petty and like someone thought Sansa needed to be in extra-danger.
Previously On: It’s a minor peeve, but honestly, the quick recaps before each episode are getting pretty absurd with how much they telegraph is going to be in every episode. And do they really need to include bits that are actually going to rehashed in-story by characters? For previously-super-Sullied book-readers who are looking to be surprised this year, don’t watch these videos.
No “don’t make me rue the day I raped your mother” line? No flaying of fingernails and bits of skin? Really? I didn’t think anything could be worse than the second and third episodes. I’m so over this show at this point. D&D can take their tween appealing fanfic and shove it up a shadow cat’s ass. And don’t get even get me started on the eunuch and handmaiden love story arc… I mean, really, what’s she gonna do, vigorously rub his patch and sing him sultry lullabies at night? I used to think that any love story other than Twilight was a better love story than Twilight. Used to.
Just kidding. Best episode of the season for me by a mile.
Winterfell was incredibly enjoyable. And all those Walda lines. I really enjoyed this episode.
Yung Wolf,
Good one 🙂 I thought you were serious at first and was shocked! Glad you enjoyed it, as well.
Probably the best episode of the season? So many great moments.
For some reason, right now I can only say this:
I mourn for Jorah. I suspected he’d fill the role of JC in getting infected with Greyscale, but… shit, I hoped I was wrong. I wasn’t.
And… Sam is definitely going to the Citadel now, which I had given up hope on. In a way, it reassures me that this plotline has a POINT that HAS to happen there, or else D&D would’ve cut it entirely. Considering how economic they’re being in their adaptation right now, they don’t have time for unnecessary exposition. They didn’t set that up for no reason; “The Citadel, which is in Oldtown, is where Maesters go to train.” Gee. I wonder why that came up!
I so very much do not care about freakin’ Missandei and Grey Worm. The show crashes to a halt every time the focus shifts to them.
KG,
Hey, it gave them an excuse to get Missandei naked. Good enough for me.
There was one thing that really jarred me…
It appeared that the dragons were no longer unruly, that Daenerys had some semblance of control back over them.
From how it was filmed it looked like the dragons were only 10 feet away from the assembled crowd and yet they only fired on the master that Dany pushed forward.
Looks like all you have to do to control a dragon, is feed it.?
KG,
It’s not amazing I agree, but actors are there to act. I think they’ve done reasonably well with it overall, bearing in mind the sort of thing they could do with the limited time. Would I cut it if the actors were happy to be extras? Yes, but I can see why it is necessary.
At least you haven’t made the ludicrous claim that if it wasn’t included we would have the Greyjoys instead, which I saw earlier.
KG,
I’ll roll with it, they’re both not bad to look at and it might play into some emotional event later.
George was attacked for having too much Nihilism in his last 2 books.
Sometimes… even at the expense on seeing characters who are more interesting to us, you need to see two people that are just in love 🙂
In a nutshell. If by controlling you mean not eating you or be overly agressiv towards you. It’s “How to calm a predator 101”.
Overall, a fantastic episode.
Positives
I really enjoyed the fact we had fewer storylines in the episode. It really helped give a little more depth to scenes, and prevented the jarring nature of scene-hopping, which has happened in the past. I’m glad that despite adapting 2 books, things feel a little more condensed.
Stannis grammar nazi, and conversation with Sam. They have really humanised Stan this season, and he has probably been the most improved character.
Nevatives
With the cutting of Manderly (probably for the best), Davos is feeling surplus to requirements. I hope we get to see a little more from him in the second half of the season.
Speaking of which, how are we half way through the season?!? Unacceptable.
9.25/10 Thoroughly enjoyed that. What books?
Abyss,
lol ..I forgot that’s how Hiccup influenced Toothless… by feeding him fish 😛
Everytime I rewatch the scene where Drogon visits Dany atop the pyramid, he ‘sniffs’ that she still has the scent of the other 2 dragons and is jealous”
I actually saw that the other way. I thought Bryan was giving a shout out to the Citadel b/c we won’t be seeing it in the show.
That was awesome! Winterfell & The Wall are both really strong this year. Brienne’s scene with the veteran Winterfell worker might have been my favorite. That or Sam-Stannis (though that really should’ve been in the first episode, or at least the second). Dragon-feeding execution up there as well.
Jeb,
I thought this was one of their more effective scenes (and there really haven’t been that many). Missandei’s scene with Dany afterward was quite good, as it was nice to see her acting as a real adviser.
Dany’s behaviour this episode was so erratic that I’m really not sure what to make of it — after making a big point about justice and due process, we’re back to arbitrary executions of people not shown to be guilty of anything, and then she’s going to make peace (also, the arbitrary executions were her idea, so I’m not sure how the latter development relates to Missandei’s advice at all).
Sansa is doing exactly the same thing she was doing in King’s Landing, except now she’s doing it while wearing a black dress.
The Wall plot is really well-done. I’m especially glad we finally got Stannis mentioning the White Walkers, which was completely absent from his previous scenes, and I was wondering if his knowledge of the threat beyond the Wall was being dropped for some reason.
hexonx,
I don’t think the show has ever been in the habit of giving shoutouts to cut plotlines.
I can’t get enough Bolton action. Iwan Rheon and Michael McElhatton kill it every single time they’re on-screen.
They should honestly make a ‘Keeping up with the Boltons’ miniseries.
Good episode. This season has been a slow burn in a lot of ways. Lots of great scenes and character-building moments, but no huge revelations for main characters. Most of the big stuff has happened to secondary or tertiary characters (Mance, Janos, Jorah). I’ve seen some people calling this a boring season, but I think even the naysayers will be convinced by the end. We have a few huge events that are being built up to very well – Boltons vs. Stannis, Margarey vs. Cersei, Jamie vs. Sandsakes vs. Doran, Tyrion getting to Mereen, and now in this episode Hardhome is being set into motion. I really hope we see the Battle for Winterfell – I wonder if Stannis will run into Yara on the way? I’m waiting for her to pop up in the previews so we’ll know she’ll arrive. I’m so tense during all of the scenes and I’m so worried for Sansa.
Preview spoilers…
Yung Wolf,
They’re really good. It’s amazing how they’re able to take these vile characters and make them fun.
Edit – Roose/Ramsay was an interesting parallel to Stannis/Shireen in E4 as well. Both are about a parents’ love for “blemished” offspring, but instead of “I did everything I could to save your life because you’re my daughter” it’s “well, after I killed your mother’s husband and then raped her, an interesting thing happened…”
Sooo much endgame set-up this season. They are dropping five books worth of hints that they skipped over and character swaps for roles that they cut into these last couple episodes. It’s becoming more and more apparent exactly what things are going to become important as we move into the final stages of the story.
Just a fantastic episode.The Wall was a really good(love the talky stuff) Sam/Stannis convo was good(glad they mentioned WW),Aemon/Sam..Jon/Tormund scene wasNice way to put subtle hint about R+L=J and I honestly wish,if Aemon could talk to Dany.Just one time.I agree there..I hate that Olly kid(so annoying),but the show is making it bovious that he’s gonna by the one to do it.
Meereen was probably highlight of the episode for me and suprisingly even Winterfell si shaping up to be pretty strong this year.Alfie is one helluva actor.
Fire and Blood!That’s my girl.Just can’t wait for more Mereen stuff and especially episode 9.
My least favorite episode of the season so far. Too, too much time at Winterfell with Myranda, and Bolton family drama, and Sansa acting really, really weird. Also, I wish Brienne’s little filler scenes would finally give way to some action, whatever her action will be. The Wall seemed a little talky too. Though I loved the Aemon scene (he still lives, yay!), Sam and Gilly, Sam’s chat with Stannis. Sadly, the Jon-Tormund scene fell flat for me.
Loved the Essos storylines this episode – salvaged the episode for me. All THREE dragons!! Valyria, stone men, Jorah, greyscale, Tyrion – the best part of the episode. Greyscale coming to Westeros through Jorahhhhh… Daenerys acting strong, finally. She needed to lose her advisors, “kill the girl” and let the “woman be born”. The Missandei-Grey Worm scenes were touching and it’s great to see it confirmed that he lives!
It seems that Stannis has been attached to the Wall affairs. Somehow the “I am the rightful king of Westeros” has lost its appeal to him. Stannis gave the impression that he marched to the battle with his mind still at the Wall.
Kay,
Wait… so you didn’t like this episode, but you’re a fan of the Missandei-Grey Worm arc?
Excuse me while I laugh my ass off.
“but behind the japes, she could hear the hurt” – Sansa on Myranda Ryoce. The jealousy of show Myranda is paralleling book Myranda
I liked this episode and it seems to me they are keeping some very key things in the book when I had expected them to leave them completely out. They’re sneaking in a lot of backstories that were left out in previous seasons (Ramsay’s mother, Lyanna at the tournament, Rhagar’s goodness, etc) One thing this season is doing – which it did more in S1-2 than 3-4 – is sticking with a storyline longer and having fewer ones in an episode. I’d rather they not include all characters for 5 mins and instead have some good meaty stuff in one location/with one group of characters for 10-15 min before moving on. They focused on The Wall, Winterfell, and Mereen this time and it was a better episode for the longer scenes in each location. They need not force each actor in every episode just to have them in it and I’d rather sacrifice Jaime/Arya/Kings Landings/Dorne scenes in one episode to focus on the other stories then go back and forth.
I like how they are showing Dany to be a stronger leader who at times acts impulsively to cruel end results but then admitting her mistakes. But I do worry that her bringing out the dragons to punish people is going to turn her into the Mad Queen if she does it too often. With only Daario advising her and no Barristan to remind her of mercy – she is too quick to make a strong statement – perhaps out of grief perhaps just angry and wanting to remind people’s who’s boss. Either way, she needs to learn to control her emotions and impulses before she loses control in general. But I am glad that the show makes her a stronger ruler rather than how she was in the books. I wonder how they’ll play out the Daario jealousy when he finds out about her upcoming marriage because interviews of Michiel Huisman he has mentioned Daario’s ‘love’ for her but hopefully he realizes that it will never be a long term thing.
Sansa’s dress looks soooo much like Cat’s dresses in S1-3 with that scarf around her neck and everything. Its so good to see Sansa reminding Walda and everyone else that Winterfell is her home and they are the strangers in it. I kinda did a little cheer for her there. And her reaction to Theon in the dog pens was perfect. Both actors were brilliant in that scene. Michael McElhatton is so deliciously evil. I HATE Roose so much but the actor is perfect for the part. He reminds me so much of the quote by Theon “This is no man to jape with. You had only to look at Bolton to know that he had more cruelty in his pinky toe than all the Freys combined”
Yup! I hope Sam runs into Arya in Braavos on his way to Oldtown!
Fantastic Jorah/Tyrion scene, the stone men were very well done…when the one just kind of drops into the water from the ledge behind Tyrion, just the odd movement was creepy af. Poor Jorah just has zero luck, he really needs to maybe run into a red priest or something and get that hand looked at. I mean damn. I had to lose Sandor last year, at least let me keep Ser Cockblocked a little while longer.
I wouldn’t mind skipping Winterfell for an episode or 5. Sansa’s ‘game-playing’ seems to consist of having the acting range of a weirwood tree. If she’s gonna dress like Morticia she better crank it up. You know what happens when people bore me.
Bye bye Barry, I will miss you. Someone let those dragons out before they get stuck in the door.
Now that you put it this way I think your right. Greyscale, The Citadel, Stannis vs Boltons, Jon Snow fallout, Northern rebellion are all looking like endgame material
Sean C.,
I agree to some extent about Dany. Emilia Clarke’s acting seems to be very inconsistent (thus I can only presume it’s a directing thing) and I don’t think it helps things. How she got the role as Sarah Connor is beyond me, but that film looks god-awful anyway.
Great episode! lots of things on my mind right now
– Sam definitely going to Oldtown now. yes, there must be something of importance in that storyline.
– GREAT VFX in the dragons scene! loved it
– Didn’t like the stone men. They moved too fast and were too few. It would of been great to see lots of them trying to get on the ship. much more menacing
– The “kill the boy” line was delivered amazingly by Peter Vaughan
– The marriage part of Dany’s Storyline I think was handled poorly. It makes more sense to have the “90 days without attacks” part so she can marry Hizdhar after that.
I was watching Tyrion and Jorah’s scene at the ruins of Valyria and though “wouldn’t it be cool to see a cameo of a pirate ship going the other way with a menacing man with an eyepatch riding it?” Sullied viewers would go crazy if they showed that
Luka Nieto,
Definately agree… and the fact that Randall Tarly was named with a backstory that he was the only guy to defeat Robert… I’m guessing he’s going to be one of the 1st major characters cast for next season!
KG,
I’m of the mind it’s kind of nice to have those moments of innocence/sweetness/whatever you want to call it, in the midst of all the madness and darkness. For as much fun as some folks make of Greyworm not having his bits, so what can they really do, anyway, to me it puts that bittersweet twist on it. Not even a genuine lovestory between two people who have the back stories those two do can have a happy ending (no pun intended).
I’m concerned that Sansa appears to not be playing the game. Not trying to make Ramsay her creature with flirtatious smiles and being so openly hostile. Strange ppl not a strange place. But maybe this is how she chooses to play.
Turncloak,
If (and I still think it’s an if, even if the odds have increased) Oldtown is in, there is no way they will pass up Sam & Arya meeting. They love these sorts of different characters meeting up. Furthermore, Arya’s storyline in Braavos is already pretty isolated, with only Jaqen there.
It’s all just flying by. I have not been keeping up with what plot lines might have been cut or not in advance to watching the show, because it’s turned everything on it’s head now. The show is “spoiling” the books. But with the attack of the stone men and Sir Friendzone getting greyscale saving Lord I’m-a-person-that-drinks, it seems like what it replaced in the books bears no meaning on the overall ending.
It’s fascinating to have the slimmer story line, but also when I do get to read it I’ll be like “Why should I care about this dude?”.
Not complaining, I love both the books and the show. I just wish the books would come out faster!
Dorne next week.I’m super hyped.
Loved ep. 5,the way they made some scenes a little bit longer this season really works for me.It just feels more close to a book atmosphere,where you get a whole chapter for your favourite characters and you get more invested.
Not a fan of Dany but I like her story this season,this civil war makes everything more exciting.
About Stannis.Some people complain about the fact that they keep saying in the show how he has more men and more horses than the Boltons.My opinion is that this is a setup for when the snows will catch them,it will have quite a big impact.Allot of men will die,they will eat their horses,etc.Even in the promo s5 pictures we have a shot of Melisandre out in the snow with soldiers struggling behind her.
Loved the episode! But that preview…
By far the best episode of the season. The Sansa at Winterfell with the Boltons story line is playing out so much better then I thought. The actors that play Roose, Ramsay, and Theon are phenomenal
I love this episode… The best until now. And the next episode more Sansaaaa!!! That’s great!!! I really like the changes, all of them… Maybe I will miss Lord Wyman Manderly, the northern clans and of course, still waiting for my beloved unCat someday, maybe S6 opening (I won’t give up until 7×10). The scene of Tyrion and Jorah Connington in the ruins of Valyria was awesome… but… poor Jorah 🙁
And to be honest, I am very happy that Sansa is having more scenes than Arya this season. Not that I dislike Arya but I think that her whole training won’t make good TV. I hope that they keep Nymeria and the Riverlands plot in S6.
StandOzone,
A little happy jolt.. someone else remembers Nymeria
I had a small hope that when Alfie Allen in a pre-season interview, said he rebonds with someone this season, he might have been hinting at Nymeria! lol
The show is very much inspired by the story GRRM is writing but they are still 2 separate worlds that won’t have the exact same ending. People should stop assuming just because a plot line is cut or a character dies in the show that they have no importance whatsoever to the story GRRM is telling in his books.
I really liked when Aemon said that a Targaryen shouldn’t be alone in the world and Jon walks in right then.
I could never forget Nymeria. 🙂
Mark,
Episode 6 spoilers- don’t read if you don’t want to know what happens-
Who would have thought Sansa’s storyline this year would be much more interesting than Arya’s? Sophie Turner might defend her crown as best actress on the WatchersonTheWall awards this year.
JamesL,
i think that’s the traumatic scene. I think D&D will make it so that consent is not clear. Like they did with the sept scene last year. Lots of
fans are going to be pissed next week
Here Be Dragons,
Walder Frey is going to return to GoT, maybe in S6. It’s possible that D&D made a pause for the Riverlands to avoid S5 to be very rushed. Put a flashback of Beric-Thoros-Catelyn as season 6 opening and it’ll work fine to reintroduce the Riverlands…
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Still hoping for that 😉 🙂
Turncloak,
Me!
StandOzone,
Hell I don’t know if we’ve got time for all that now… if there’s only 2 Seasons left? 🙁
StandOzone,
Good job :p. I thought Lena deserved the award last year but I might have to vote for Sophie this year.
Theon Turncloak,
Dad is that you?
StandOzone,
Maybe Nymeria and her pack can take out some Freys as retribution for Grey Wind.
When Myranda sent Sansa into the kennels my first thought was Nymeria rather than Reek. don’t know why
Myranda: I like your dress. Who made it?
Sansa: I made it with the purist silk from Tralalalalaleday.
Here Be Dragons,
LSH has a role to play. We haven’t see her a lot in the books, so… Why did GRRM introduce her if she won’t become important? If she will have a development as a character that will happen through Winds of Winter (if not also in ADoS). The return of Walder Frey could be seen as an indicator to the return to Riverlands and whatever happens ther in WoW… Personally I thought that will be Walder who will get married in the TV Show (instead Daven Lannister) and then he will have a nice wedding sorrounded by the BwB and a pack of wolves.
I nominate Peter Vaughan for an Emmy.
You know, I did not really love this episode very much.
I don’t hate the inclusion of Myranda but I had a really hard time caring about her scenes. She’s fine as a henchwoman, but she does not deserve a subplot.
Thought the Stannis/Samwell scene could have been cool, but it was used as the means for an info dump about Dragonglass. It didn’t feel like a meaningful interaction between their characters.
I tend to defend Dany’s political decisions, but the arbitrary dragon execution of a Master was really fucked up, and feels out of left field with the whole “law is law” thing she was preaching 3 episodes ago. She is swayed so easily by her emotions it makes her a less compelling character. And the marriage to Hizdahr felt really abrupt.
Also felt the pace was unnecessarily slow. Really long times spent on storylines, filled with pregnant pauses…I got a little bored at times, honestly.
What’s a Sansa to do?
– Her insane/murderous soon-to-be Bolton husband/flaymaster is peacocking about and possibly insecure about his position as a Bolton
– Her foster brother, who killed her little brothers (as far as she knows), is a Ramsay bitch
– Her soon-to-be stepmom-in-law is a fucking Frey
– Her soon-to-be father-in-law stabbed her older brother and helped kill her mother
– Her new “friend” sleeps with her soon-to-be husband and harshly teases her
– Her mentor has left her
– Her source of “the north remembers” rebellion support is AARP
– She is soon to be an unwilling polygamist
– She didn’t bring a change of clothes
Oh what to do? What to do?
Hahahahahahahahaha…
Maester Aemon is one of my favorite characters in the books, and Peter Vaughan is so perfect in the role.
Lol. This worries me the most.
JamesL,
That’s not correct. GRRM is featured in weekly interviews talking about the show. He explains things that are different from the books very well, as if he had a part in shaping the changes. The book and the show remain intertwined. If the show is going to spoil something from the book, GRRM releases a sample chapter to give the book primacy.
Most critically we get the Theon sample chapter which shows several things that are on track for this season that are actually Winds of Winter. The great puzzle is how Stannis-Jon-Mel-Shireen gets resolved book vs show. It really could go so many different ways at this point, which is a remarkable achievement considering just how many sleuths are on the case!
Rygritte,
LMAO
I’m loving this season and while it sucks we’re already half way through, I think the second half is going to be even better judging by the past.
Always happy with more Sansa, and like not knowing where her story is going.
Also happy with less Arya, don’t want excessive time wasted on her training.
Of course Sansa will probably drop away towards the end of the season like last year, and we will get more Arya once shes progressed in her training.
Whole northern story is great, can’t wait to see what happens with Stannis bearing down on them.
This episode also had a nice parallel between Jon and Dany, both looking for answers from others and both being told to grow up and make there own decisions.
Anyway, review for next week looks like a packed episode, counting the days.
StandOzone,
O Dear Buddy… That argument is Dead now.
This is TV Land and we just have to get used to the fact that alot of characters we enjoy in the books are Not going to make it to the show.
I weep … but as Ramsay said.. “If you think this has a happy ending… You haven’t been paying attention”
Hodor Targaryen,
I’m starting to believe that Dany really is teetering on the edge of madness. Burning the Master without a trial was very Aerys-esque.
Am I the only one wondering who sent Aemon that letter…?
Tyrion Pimpslap,
A Master who might be innocent…
Back in S4, I understood the crucifixion of slave masters from a character standpoint. They were just plain evil in her eyes at the time (and she had just taken over a city). But her interactions with Hizdahr and Jorah and Barristan seemed to soften her a bit, to the point where she could at least see the Masters as human beings. That execution scene felt like a major step backward from that progress, and I didn’t buy the change, especially since she goes back to being conflicted hours later. Just did not like that scene…
Big Mac,
I wondered that too… I’m assuming it come from the Citidel.
Hodor Targaryen,
It didn’t sit comfortably with me either.
Just going to boil it down that Dany needed to remind the Masters she has dragons, like Daario recommended.
Tyrion can’t get there Quick enough for me!!
Lol, enjoyed watching the Boltons go through their twin scene of Stannis and Shireen
Not just the “how did you manage it?”Walda lines, but also how Roose just keeps a straight face and straight casual tone through it all
Enjoyed the thematic shift of as soon as Ser Barristan is dead we start to see Fire + Blood Dany begin to emerge
For my part Hizdahr gave a great speech last season but he seems like a bumbling coward, a bit unimpressed how the leaders of the families are snivelling cowards
Mind you I’ll accept it if it is a nod to the fact the leading families indeed are not behind the Sons of the Harpies, the prisoner who was killed was defiant so it could be one of those things set up as a contrast
The talk about Dany and her children got me thinking about a theory I just hear that the Whore is the actual leader of the Harpy’s, I think this would be great foil for Dany if she is indeed the leader and the “Mother of Harpies” as a contrast to the “Mother of Dragons” and a great contrast to the “Mhysa” thing as it becomes a contested title in Slavers bay
“The north remembers” -Ramsay
Great! 😀
Am I the only one who thought that Sam was going to be sent not to Oldtown, but to Mereen to council Dany?
Ramsey won’t hurt Sansa. He is attracted to her. It was obvious this episode in his scene with Myranda.
I really enjoyed this episode! Maybe the best yet. What really made me chuckle was
Loved this episode!!
For some reason my favorite accessory on the show is Stannis’ cape/cloak and it just makes me happy every time he wears it. Now that he has Northernized it with a fur accessory it is The Cape That Was Promised. Thanks costume department!!! Superficial, but I love the costumes on this show 🙂
Here Be Dragons,
I think if she had stopped short of having one killed, I would have liked it more (although it probably would not be that effective) because, yeah, show that you’re not afraid to use the dragons, that’s an important message.
Maybe it’s because I’m kind of cheering for Daenerys, the idea that she would knowingly have an innocent person killed to make a point just really irked me. Maybe that’s the point, that my feelings should be mixed about her, but this felt like too strong a swing to the Targaryen madness for my tastes…
Here Be Dragons,
Hehe… As I said above… I won’t give up 😛
TheRealHotPie,
To council Dany.Member of the Night’s Watch?No. 🙂 Tbh my mom thought Aemon will go straight to Dany after his scene with Sam.Too bad he’ll most likely die at the Wall,but Oldtown arc has to happen.Too many references of it.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I don’t mind the Missandei/Greyworm romance either. It’s not my favorite subplot or anything, but I like it that these two characters have some motivations and interests and goals of their own, other than “stand around and advise Dany from time to time.”
As for the complaints about Greyworm not having his bits… Ugh, that’s such an idiotic objection. Greyworm still has fingers, a tongue, a prostate gland, and the most important sex organ of all: a brain. He can do plenty. There are people with no sensation at all from the waist down who still have sex lives. There are people who have been castrated for medical reasons who still have sex lives. There are people who have been effectively chemically castrated by disease who still have sex lives. This isn’t some weird fantastical thing; it’s a situation that real people deal with all the time.
It just seems so utterly ridiculous to me that in this subplot about someone struggling to overcome a lifetime of cruel brainwashing to seek intimacy with another person, all some people can seem to think about are his genitals. I think what was done to his *mind* is rather more important, you know?
Hodor Targaryen,
Well, Dany is facing a war… In the books she hold young hostages from the great houses of Meereen, and she was unable to kill them even when the Sons of the Harpy prevailed. At least she was not killing children but the leaders (in some way, if she lost a leader-like close advisor she is trying to deal with this more even).
I really like that scene… it was f*ckin’ agüesome.
First time posting here… I’ve been a long time fan of the books and I love the show! I don’t understand all the complaints in regards to changes in character story lines, isn’t it awesome being surprised by Sansa returning to WF?! Or Brienne so close to Sansa, mentioning that she still serves Catelyn even though she’s dead, maybe there’s a hooded woman lurking in the north? Dany taking charge again, maybe she’s the one serving poisoned locusts to the masters during the reopening of the pit? Little Finger headed back to KL after bargaining with the man that killed his one true love!! Not only are we lucky to be introduced to this amazing world that GRRM created, but we also get alternate stories for some characters, which means we get to use our imaginations a little bit longer! This is storytelling at it’s best!
One more thing… so many people commenting on producing, certain characters not appearing and horrible camera angles… why don’t y’all just send your resumes to HBO, obviously you’re much more qualified for the job. Oh, maybe contact GRRMs people too and let them know how much faster you are at writing 1000+ page novels featuring several characters in different locations, multiple religions and in depth medieval meal descriptions.
That’s my rant 🙂
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I accept that most people feel the same as you. But it all has zero chemistry and interest to me, personally. I just don’t see it /shrug
StandOzone,
But, did she ever kill the kids?
And why was she advocating trials before and isn’t now?
It feels very sudden to me. It’s a step she’s never taken before, killing someone who may well be innocent. And she didn’t seem to care. Felt out of character to me.
Hodor Targaryen,
I think that’s intentional. Dany’s actions for the past season or so have been inconsistent because her advisors pull her in different directions. She gave Mossador a “trial” on Barristan’s advice, turned around and summarily executed the Masters on Daario’s advice, etc. The point of this episode was that Dany (and Jon) needs to trust her own judgment more if she’s to become a strong ruler. Missandei and Aemon make pretty much exactly the same point.
Theon,
Yeah, that’s a good point. But even when she was listening to her advisors she needed to be convinced by them…Barristan had that Mad King backstory, Jorah had to make a compelling argument to avoid a Yunkai massacre. There was nothing like that here. I have a hard time believing that Daario convinced her that executing an innocent person would be the right thing to do. In the past, she at worst had an eye-for-an-eye justification for her actions. Even the mass crucifixions were justice in her eyes. I don’t see how she convinces herself it’s justice here…maybe that has less to do with the actual action taken and more to do with the buildup to the scene.
RAMSAY FILLS HER CUP AND THEN THEON DOES IT AGAIN LITEARLLY A MINUTE AFTER THIS BOTHERS ME ALOT
Ghasterly Rock,
I noticed that too… even when Sansa didn’t drink with Ramsay’s toast.
A lot of fodder for the “Dany will be the ultimate human villain of ASOIAF” theory. Feeding possibly innocent people to your dragons because you are upset? Aerys approves from beyond the grave.
Wouldn’t it be amazing if the great Salladhor Saan will bring
on one of his ships?
I don’t know how an episode can be the best of the season so far, but the most disappointing at the same time (some illogical decisions are really annoying)… But that’s exactly how I feel. As usual, Bryan Cogman does an amazing job, love this guy.
An okay episode. I’ve never been a big fan of the Boltons or Theon so I do wish there’s less of this SL after the wedding.
Two episodes without Arya has been a letdown for me, though. I’m eager to see more actual training and some more of Braavos. We only got a few introductory scenes in the two episodes Arya has been in so I feel like we should get more in depth as we enter the second half of the season.
I like when Bryan Cogman puts meta dialogue into the script, which deliberately alludes to changes that the show has made to the book material.
Tyrion: Where are we? Not the Rhoyne.
Davos: I’ll choose some men to stay at the Wall and protect Selyse and Shireen, because you’re obviously not going to take them with you to battle.
Stannis: No, I’m taking them with me.
And probably:
Samwell: I always wanted to be a maester, but I’m a man of the Night’s Watch instead.
Winterfell scenes kind of dragged a bit but otherwise another good episode especially the finale scenes with Tyrion and Jorah. Still don’t like that they had Dany offering marriage to Hizdahr, he should have made the original offer in an earlier episode so then it wouldn’t feel so random and out of nowhere considering she was just about to have him killed.
Also still wish we had more Arya this season but at least next week looks like it will feature her heavily.
Looks like Sam and Gilly have been replaced as Game of Thrones’ hottest couple!
satin,
The character Ramsay just hasn’t been translated well to TV. I think Iwan could potentially play him good but the writing for the character is lacking. TV Ramsay lacks the presence book Ramsay has. He is written often times comical and joking around, nothing like the sinister book version. He should be more Hannibal Lector and less the Joker. Because the way the character is written the storyline doesn’t have the dramatic weight it should and does in the books. The character is iconic to book readers but mostly a flop and uninteresting to the average TV viewer for a reason.
Bryan’s episodes just flow really well, don’t they? I loved Kill the Boy. Except for Jorah getting infected. 🙁 Stannis’ “Fewer” line was hilarious. 😀 I’m so happy we got the Sam/Stannis scene, it was great. Really enjoyed Dany again (though the execution of that one man did remind me of the Mad King) and, weirdly enough, got a bit teary-eyed during the Grey Worm/Missandei scene.
Sophie and Alfie were amazing as usual, and the Myranda stuff wasn’t as bad as I expected. Sansa standing in the same place where Bran fell down was a nice touch. The Winterfell storyline has been pretty interesting so far, but I can’t help getting more and more annoyed with Brienne and Pod. They’re just a bit irrelevant right now, and Brienne going on and on about her oath is getting tiresome.
We better get some really good and long Arya scenes next week.
What does Sansa getting lots of scenes this season have to do with Arya maybe getting less? Pitting them against each other is getting so old.
Not at all.
Hodor’s Bastard,
Oh, and don’t forget, her mentor betrayed her father and was instrumental in his death.
Sansa, oh Sansa. What’s a girl to do?
JamesL,
I have to say I completely disagree with this. I found the torture scenes from season 3 annoying from time to time, but he’s been a great character in this season and season 4. And sinister, like in the books.
The best, especially the AARP reference!
About Dany…
Not wild about how she is making decisions but it was a great scene with the dragons and the masters.
Stannis is rising rapidly on my “favorite character list.” Stephen Dillane has been perfect this season.
Don’t know if this has already been pointed out (or if it’s really obvious) but Stannis the grammar nazi was actually a callback to S2 :
Davos : “Four less fingernails to clean.”
Stannis : “Fewer.”
My quick 2p worth: very good episode, enjoyed it :thumbsup:
What the heck is an AARP?
Stop the Myranda hate! I like her scenes. Charlotte Hope is a great and pretty actress. Hip Hip hooray for her!
I was actually hoping it was Nymeria (or Lady or the outside chance of ShaggyDog) in the kennel even though I was sure it was Theon.
Turncloak,
Pretty much exactly all of my thoughts. It’s now also looking like JC’s primary purpose is bringing live Greyscale to Westeros, and the rest of that whole plotline may very well just be a distraction so that readers don’t realize that’s what he’s therefore, in which case it makes sense to cut him out and hand his role off to Jorah.
And if Arianne’s main plotline going forward is going to be wrapped up in that story, then cutting her out for having really nothing to do going forward in the story and having the Sand Snakes take over actually makes some sense. Plus, as much as I personally liked Quentyn’s chapters, he becomes even more superfluous without Arianne around to have her story be informed by his existence.
I realize they’ve more or less said this already in interviews, but looking at just the show now it’s very, very obvious: The first three seasons were set up for the Red Wedding. They tossed in some bits here and there to foreshadow plot pints further down the line and generally expand on the world, but the real focus of the show was “get to the Red Wedding.”
And then they got there. And the show was a monster success. Suddenly they had to deal with the fact that they were going to make it past that third season. And it shows a bit in season four that they’re starting to look a bit farther afield and think about how things are going to play out over the long haul.
But season five has raced past last season so far in setting things up for down the line. You can practically see them shifting pieces around the board. I think last season was used to wrap up a lot of plot- and character-lines from the first three seasons and get them to a place where they could start putting people where they needed them to be this season.
I’ve noticed that recent episodes have actually gotten much more praise from book readers than from Unsullied, which I thought was weird at first. I loved the beginning of the season, and up until last night’s episode, my girlfriend was getting bored. Considering this season was so “off book” compared to others, I found that strange since that usually causes the most complaints from book fans.
Then I thought maybe the differences were just making it more exciting for us than the Unsullied since it was the first time we didn’t know exactly what was going to happen. And maybe there’s a little of that. But I think the big reason for me, and I suspect a lot of book readers whether they’re recognizing that this is what it is or not (it took me a bit to realize this) is that they are finally dropping a lot of hints, and name dropping a lot of places and generally organizing plotlines along the lines of things in the book, that I’m actually getting pumped up to start seeing the same endgame start to shape up on the show as in the books, even though I don’t know exactly what it is.
The Unsullied on the other hand, while some of the clues have been pretty blatant, don’t have the knowledge to recognize a lot of things as set up or parallels to the book, and so don’t realize what things are setting up for the end.
I think in previous seasons even a lot of the good off-book material felt like it was moving away from the main thrust of the story. This season, most of it, even the really major changes, feels like they’re reorienting back to the same destination as the books and just taking a different route because they’re now starting to going in that direction from the position off the beaten path that they wandered into.
It’s the most true-to-the-book off-book material I think they’ve ever had.
Direwolves are the only thing REALLY lacking in the show. I obviously get the changes from the books, but more Ghost, and wolf-dreams would be welcomed.
Ok, Sansa’s long walk down the kennels, culminating in that incredible soundtrack and Theon’s first line of the series, “You shouldn’t be here”.
I thought that was utterly haunting. Seriously loved it. Favourite scene of the series, even.
Here Be Dragons,
I was rather fond of the characters who accompanied the Qynten rather than the Prince himself
No.
Hizdar, who so far has been unremarkable, stole the show for me.
Dany asks why hes begging for his life after his proud valar morghulis, & his looking down at both knees before shrugging was hilarious & delivered perfectly.
Oh, and I also thought “there’s a ton of dragonglass in Dragonstone” was pretty pointed foreshadowing, especially since they devoted an entire scene just to give Stannis the necessary set up to be able to say that line.
To me it read that since she couldn’t punish a particular Master because they wore masks, a random Master would do to make her point. Besides they ARE all guilty.
Splendid post – well said :thumbs up:
My main thought was, having thought that Tyrion’s pleasure cruise down the Rhoyne was cut out and the Stone Men + JC therefore not that important to the plot but just more worldbuilding, it was a big surprise at the end to learn developments from that might be quite impactful after all.
Exaaaactly. LOVED IT.
And I loved also the dragons VFX and everything about the Winterfell storyline!
Jorah is the new Jon Con.
May I counter with the example of the Stone Men explanatory videos in this week’s extras (available on Westeros yesterday). If you pay attention, you will notice how the video is precisely edited to remove GRRM’s mentions of Chroyane and the Rhoyne. He mentions that it’s specifically the Volantene who gather them in a ruined city. It sounds to me like GRRM is explaining things as they are in the books, and then the HBO editors make it seem like he talks about their version in Valyria.
And somebody nominate Alfie Allen for a damned worthwhile acting award. He’s doing an incredible job of playing a truly broken man with so much body language and so little dialogue.
Loved Ramsay’s shock at Roose and Walda’s announcement, equal parts of “oh shit what about my inheritance?” and “you mean you’ve actually been diddling her?!”
I wonder why Sansa, when Ramsay was baiting her about Theon been the nearest living kin that Sansa had left, she didn’t deem to remind him that she had a half brother in the Night’s Watch …?
I enjoyed the episode! It was slow, but I’m okay with that, since it’s a drama show, not Spartacus.
It had GREAT and TENSE dialogues (Alfie Allen and Iwan Rheon killed it), and the Tyrion sequence at the end was spot on.
I think the next one will be focused on drama, dialogues and set up for the rest of the season. I’m betting that the last 3 or 4 episodes will be a rollercoaster.
Arya havin’ a larf?,
He Truly does look ‘broken’ And Alfie must’ve put himself on a gaunt diet to look so changed for the role… Make-up and lighting can only do so much.
I’ve watched that dinner table scene about 10 times already and just Love it “You’re Right. Very Strange” 😀 😀 😀
Here Be Dragons,
If you were in that position, would you have piped up to throw out that little fact to no particular purpose?
Re: Sansa not playing nice…. I did find it odd that she would be so harsh to her new family when she’s supposed to be winning them over, but at the end of the scene she flashed a little smile at Ramsay’s dismay about a baby brother. She has identified a weakness she can use to turn them against each other.
(Though I hate the idea of walda as collateral damage)
She IS playing the game, but more Littlefinger-style and less “courtesy is a lady’s armor”
I feel every time Daenerys speaks Valyrian she says “Costos Da’or” ten times. What’s up with that?
Charlotte Hope is very menacing as Myranda. I actually find her more sinister than Ramsay himself, a remarkable feat for a minor character who has barely been written for. The way she smiles, her eyes, she just exudes malevolence and lunacy bubbling underneath. Pure and utter psychopath. I wouldn’t be surprised if she betrays the Boltons, or even if she made an off screen deal with Littlefinger before he left to be his Winterfell agent with the promise of a better life for herself in King’s Landing. Now Myranda knows that Ramsay has no loyalty to her, what has she got to loose? Knowing that she is disposable, she will be figuring out how best to turn the situation to her advantage – keep an eye on this girl for the rest of the season.
Roose is the more interesting character in either medium, anyway, and he is absolutely spot-on.
Delta1212,
Considering that it looks like she’s not going to follow LF’s advice to “take this Ramsay boy, make him yours” and the fact that she was brave enough to rebuffer “It’s the people who are strange” it would have have been acceptable to me for her to deflate Ramsay’s baiting with a reminder of Jon.
“Konir sagon kostos daor”
Melisandre definitely said this in the past too.
Kostos daor = That’s not possible
TFT,
Found a couple of snippets of Valurian dialogue containing daor. At first I thought it meant something like tell, but that didn’t fit with every sentence, so it looks like it means “no” or “not” or just a general negation. I’m still looking for something that sounds like “costos”.
Arya havin’ a larf?,
And just found a dictionary with that reference.
Although it looks like that full phrase means “That’s impossible” and kostos daor just means “can’t.” I’m pretty sure a more literal translation of “Konir sagon kostos daor” would be “That can’t be done.”
But this is literally the first time I’ve ever actually looked at High Valyrian, so there are a lot of assumptions I’m making there.
The full parse is
(verb) kostagon / to be able, can
daor = no, not
So modern day translation = No can do
Konir sagon kostos daor = You’re havin’ a larf! 😀
Removes nerd hat now…
Great episode so far, really well written. Yawned at Grey Worm’s deathbed scene and Daenery’s Aerys moments but that’s quite alright.
One more thing, WHO’S/WHERE’S YEZZAN? HAS ANYONE SEEN ENZO CILENTI ANYWHERE? If he is not the harpy, that scheming whore is.
Personally I loved that they made the “Bad influence Daario” plot point go from Daenerys capturing the children of the great families to Daenerys TAKING THEM DOWN TO HER DRAGONS AND DRAGON QUEENING ON THEIR ASSES
Also loved that the White Walkers and the army of the dead are fiiiiiiiiiiiinally back in the story
Eurio,
He’ll be the one to capture Tyrion, so he wouldn’t be in the story rn
Dany is moronic and misguided and had always been. She killed ALL the masters in Astapor, crucified ALL the masters in Mereen and let a man who could be innocent be killed by her dragons because she prefers to kill a hundred innocents than let one guilty man go.
The person who cared for due process was Barristan, and now that he’s dead she’s back on track for becoming the mad king’s daughter.
JamesL,
I disagree strongly with this.
In the books Ramsay is just a hell-bent torturer and sadist who is absolutely hated or at the very least distrusted by many northern lords. Even Roose seems to acknowledge that Ramsay killed his heir and that any future child he has won’t live with Ramsay around, making him seem powerless to curb it, or at least (I can’t spell it) Blah-zai to the future of his house.
I think the show has Improved on these two characters. Roose is far more menacing and Ramsay’s cruelty seems far less known to the wider world of Westeros… why I’m betting LF doesn’t know!!
I would certainly be surprised if the TV audience considers them ‘flops’ and would like to hear others thoughts about this?
OK… so was that good or what? Did any of us even NOTICE we didn’t go to King’s Landing? Uh, no!
Myranda is a bit annoying is all. With Winter, Boltons, Freys, bitches… Stannis on the way – does Sansa need another enemy? Better pay off! 🙂 Worm/Missy makes more sense, there is a dirth of love going on.
Here Be Dragons,
Even show Sansa used to emphasize Jon is her “half-brother”. He doesn’t count in Sansa’s world and the world of Westeros unless a King gets involved….
Roast,
Just because a character doesn’t play a part in the endgame, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t care for them…
I was hoping during the Bolton breakfast, Ramsay would ask Sansa to tell them about King Joffrey’s antics. It would have been nice to see Ramsay feigning horror about Joffrey’s abuse of her.
Can somebody please explain why taking greyscale to Westeros makes sense? I’ve read many a comment saying the same thing but neither one explains why this is important. Am I missing something that’s obvious for everyone else?
Even if it is a necesary plot, I gotta say that I’m heartbroken that my bear is the one who got it
LOL! That would have been genious!
Already talked about my favourite scene in the kennels, but here are some other highlights I want to gush about:
– “Keep reading, Samwell Tarly”. This whole scene made me really excited for Sam’s future in the TV show (where previously I was only maybe excited about things in the book). I want Sam to make a huge difference to the story using his own skills and interests; his books and his research. It’s fun seeing him get lucky in combat situations, but this felt like a foreshadowing of something much more interesting.
– Davos and Shireen!!!! Okay, my Davos itch still needs a bit more scratching. I’ve said it before, I think his story (if he has one) is the biggest mystery of the season, and I get more and more anxious about it as time goes on. But it’s lovely seeing these two characters get another moment together.
– Ramsay: “That was getting… very tense”. Just the face he pulls when he says that. Gotta hate him, but I love his blacker-than-black sense of humour. He’s having the time of his life.
– Theon’s apology. I love how it started off being more heart-felt, when he was looking at the ground. When he simply says “I’m sorry”, it’s like he’s really apologising for something because it remains ambiguous, allowing him to hide his thoughts from Ramsay. And when Ramsay asks him to elaborate, the “apology” feels different, whilst still being subtle enough that Ramsay doesn’t catch it. Bravo Alfie Allen.
– After that apology, the look on Theon’s face when he’s back at his table. Chilling.
– Dolorous Edd, Tormund, Aemon, and now Bowen Marsh, too! Awww yeeaah.
– And, of course, Jorah and Tyrion. If I could tweak it in any way, I’d have Tyrion’s “drowning” go on for just a bit longer. I seem to remember the books drawing it out to the point where I was getting really terrified as I read it – not just because it finished on a cliffhanger. That minor quibble aside, it’s great to see the amount of dialogue these two characters get gradually increases with each episode.
– Oh, and, yeah. That ending was horrifying.
What a brilliant episode. I loved pretty much everything.
My one reservation is that I’m not quite sure what Sansa think she’s doing. Does she reckon that acting completely nice and compliant to the Boltons would be obviously fake, so she’s purposefully letting *some* of her unhappiness show? Or was she genuinely so upset by seeing Theon that she was just off-balance? And why let Myranda persuade her into going into the kennels anyway? My danger-meter was screaming!
While a bit of me instinctively reacted against Jorah and Tyrion travelling through the ruins of Valyria (because it’s genuinely a big freaking deal for anyone to try that), that faded after a few moments, and I grew to appreciate that this was a great way to add exposition about the Valyrians without getting into an artificial info-dump conversation. Great character- and plot-condensing in giving Jorah greyscale too. More angst for Jorah. More!
I love that Jon is seeing some people who are emotionally significant to him, like Edd and Olly, reacting against his choice. When even your friends argue against your choices, it shows just how deep opposition goes, as well as serving to isolate him further emotionally. The rest of the scenes at the Wall were great too (Stannis grammar, Gilly and Sam, Sam and Stannis, Shireen and Davos: tons of goodness right there).
In an episode with lots of great moments, I thought that Hizdahr shone particularly. The show version of his character is much more interesting to me than the book version. By making him so sympathetic (Antigone speech, successful peace mission, speaks respectfully to Dany, only noble who showed courage in front of the dragons), they’re making it clear that Dany’s situation is not at all black-and-white. I felt genuinely terrible for him throughout all his scenes, up to and including Dany saying she’d marry him. I’m sure he’s incredibly relieved that he’s not going to be burned, torn apart, and eaten… but I don’t know that he’d want to marry the woman who ordered the crucifixion of his father. I can only see him swallowing it if it’s in the best interests of Meereen. But is it? Dany just showed how capricious she can be, swinging from lashing out at the nobles to marrying one of them. She just committed the crime for which she had Mossador executed (killing someone who might’ve been a Harpy without giving a fair trial – and, arguably, her crime was even worse, as there was at least some evidence against the guy Mossador killed). Even if she’s struggling and trying her best, and that best is impeded when she’s mourning Barristan, her hypocrisy is astounding. I feel like Hizdahr was innocent up to this point and genuinely not involved with the Sons of the Harpy, but I wonder if that’s going to change from this point onwards. How can he ever feel like he is safe beside Dany, even as her husband, when she was *this* close to having him horribly killed, and he was completely powerless to stop her? How can he ever feel that Meereen is safe under her?
Lady Wolfsbane,
In Sansa’s former world… Yes 😉
But I bet she would have to be impressed that Jon is now Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch in just over 4 yrs and wonder if that is a card she can play, especially with LF giving her insight to where Stannis is.
(I really wish I understood the dynamics of Raven’s News…?, let alone jet-pack travels and timelines, as someone pointed out Gilly’s Babe should be toddlering around going “King, King, Corn, Corn” by now) 🙂
Josla,
Jon Connington has Greyscale.
Never mind “kill the boy” and all the rest, as a teacher of English as a foreign language Stannis’ line was the best in the series so far for me. How many times a week do I say “fewer” when one of my students uses “less” with a countable noun.
Stannis the Mannis you are the true King of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros, the Andals, the First Men, the Rhoynar and Proper Grammar. Yayyy!!!
Josla,
Everyone thinks they know everything, that’s why. 😉 I dunno. Who knows. But of all the things that have been kept and reinforced from the books
I would like to point out the my wacky lone-wolf theory that drowning protects you from Greyscale (AKA the GreyJOY’s) and their worship of the DROWNed God continues to hold some water…. so to speak. Very clearly the SHOW Tyrion got touched. And drowned. And he’s OK folks (so far)! Poor Boo-Bear though…
Estelindis,
I realize this seems a bit like picking nits, but Mossador’s crime wasn’t actually killing the prisoner without a trial. It was killing the prisoner against Dany’s express orders, a crime which she cannot, by definition, commit.
Dang is a despot. She’s a despot that at least wants to be a good ruler, but she is most definitely presiding over a system of government where the law is what the sovereign decides and not something that the sovereign is subject to themselves except insofar as they choose to be.
Which makes sense since that’s pretty typical of a conqueror, and I’m not sure that it would necessarily occur to her (or most people in that position) that doing anything different might be better.
Delta1212,
The thing is, when Mossador said that Dany was the law now, she pointedly said that the *law* was the law. Now she’s changed her mind (only to change it again later, it seems).
Estelindis,
This was my favorite episode. I agree that they’re turning Hizdahr human. Problem is that Dany is so capricious that nothing she does makes sense. I’m not attacking the show, as she was like that in the novels, too.
She decides trials are good, so she’s going to try the bad guy who killed her men.
Vengeful guy kills bad guy, so Dany beheads vengeful guy…without a trial.
Barristan is killed, so she gathers up all the masters of Meereen, and starts feeding them randomly to her dragons. No trial.
She has big, sensitive talk with Missendei, who makes it sound as if Dany knows things. So Dany goes to Hizdahr, tells him that they will marry, and opens fighting pits.
huh???
Rest was great. If anything happens to Stannis or Shireen, I will cry.
Harrington is doing a good job turning Jon into a serious, dark adult.
Love the Boltons. Can do without the jealousy subplot.
JoopStroop,
The AARP is an organization that provides services and advocacy for older people.
Even though it seems like people keep popping out of the woodwork offering to help Sansa, to quote Gimli, “Most have seen too many winters.”
James,
Estelindis,
Felt the some way 🙂
Didn’t catch Theon’s chilling look, will go rewatch.
Hizdahr does gain my sympathy and I won’t blame him if he now turns against Dany.
Yeah. I still don’t see why that matters and probably nobody really does yet? But the way some people claim how it makes “so much sense” to have Jorah get the disease made me think they knew something about greyscale that I didn’t.
Lady Wolfsbane,
This is actually a good point that I hadn’t really thought about. I don’t know if it’s to do with greyscale (though it may) but drowning is clearly important in some way. Between Tyrion, Patchface and the Damphair (and crew), that’s a lot of drowning survivors that are floating around, and despite your wish that they’d lingered on the drowning part more, they did actually longer a lot on the blackness post-drowning. To the point that I started to suspect that the credits were about to appear, and then that the TV might have broken before he opened his eyes.
That’s a lot of emphasis on a moment that actually made it over despite pretty much everything else about that scene being changed.
I don’t know that it means anything, but it very well might.
This was really confusing. Missandei’s words seem to back up Dany’s decision-making… so Dany changes her mind?
Andy Greenwald review is up http://gran.tl/1QzJYGp
Ali Kat,
Oh my; just had a flash back to season 1, when her brother often threatened her with that very thing. That does not bode well!
Sean
I think Dany realized that its not either this or that; she has a power that no one else has. Why not just demonstrate it (tho granted she could have just tossed in a sheep or two and made her point without arbitrary executions, but I understood why she did it)
Josla,
I think you might be interpreting the logic backwards.
It’s less “Of course they transferred the greyscale from Jon Connington to Jorah. Greyscale is important to the story!” and more “Of course Greyscale is important to the story. They transferred Jon Connington’s greyscale to Jorah!”
They cut a character that brought greyscale to Westeros as part of an invasion force and then gave greyscale to a different character who will presumably be heading to Westeros as part of an invasion force.
Considering how many things they’ve cut and just how much set up for things to come that they’ve been doing, that’s clearly going to be important.
Well, that and the fact that in the books there’ve been a bunch of hints dropped, too. Melisandre is a bit freaked out by both Patchface and Shireen, and between Shireen having it in the North and Jon Connington bring it to the South and the Stone Men showing the results of the disease, it’s almost certainly going to wind up being important.
How? I don’t know. Can’t tell you whether there is going to be a full on White Walker vs Dragon vs Stone Men battle, or if it’s only going to be critical to a couple of key characters, but something is going to happen with it, and Jorah getting it is seen, by me and presumably other people, as being a big piece of evidence in favor of that piece of speculation.
Turncloak,
Oh thanks. Like he said, Jorah and Tyrion on that boat was so stunning. Like… Java mixed with the Amazon? I think I was mumbling “Oh my brain couldn’t imaging the pretty, it’s so pretty”
Maria and Estelindis,
The explanation is Dany be crazy. Just like Joffery had to be MORE evil on the show, because he’s an adult instead of 13ish – Dany’s got to be MORE crazy than the mostly just indecisive child she was in the books. Really, I think I’d perfer Viserys at this point! Bring back Viserys!
For me it was the best episode of the season and maybe one of the best-paced of the entire series.
I liked most
– the pacing : at last, thx Bryan Cogman!! not showing too many characters at a time/ keeping a cohesive story through transitions
– daenerys storyline : I have never been a fan of dany and meereen but I found that Emilia Clarke played incredibly during the scene with the masters, and hizdahr at the end.
– dany and missandei dialogue : I like the ideology of it (missandei telling dany to choose her own way and not just blindly following her men counsillors’ )
– sansa/theon at winterfell. Ramsay personnality. The dinner scene.
– jorah and tyrion team. Valyria looks fantastic. Stonemen : dreadful
What I did not like are just a few things but
– I found the attack of the stonemen just weird, too fast, we dont get to see their faces (much), and we dont know why they are so mad at tyrion and jorah??
– missandei/greyworm romance : such a stereotypical and non original plot is very boring and hard to watch. Just dig into dany/missandei relationship, far more interesting that this..
Josla,
Lady Wolfsbane,
Delta1212,
Now that Greyscale has truly entered the show with a force… I would love this sites’ editors to create a post where we pitch our crazy theories and speculate what this means for the show and ‘possibly’ Endgame???
KG,
glad I’m not the only! feels like it is a really forced narrative.
what a redemption episode this was compared to last week!!
When I saw the title was “kill the boy”, I had high hopes they would include that line Aemon said to Jon. Such a powerful scene.
The dragons just continue to blow my mind away with how awesome and powerful they look!!
Yeah, woman logic: go figure – now you know how men feel all the time 😉
Arya havin’ a larf?,
LOL
God you’re are Brave Man… See how many “Daughters of the Harpies” fall for that baiting? 😉
Your comment and Rgritte’s ..
Myranda: “I like your dress? who made it”
Sansa: “I made it with the finest silk from tralalalalaleday”
.. Have brought tears to my eyes!
Gd75,
They established through Gilly’s story of her sisters getting Greyscale that the final stages make you go crazy and essentially turn you rabid. I think that was as much set up as they really needed for the attack.
Here Be Dragons,
Well, we don’t really start a post randomly but if you or someone else has a theory they want to write out as a post, it could be a guest feature that could lead to a discussion.
Sue the Fury,
One of my favorite parts of this show has been watching Unsullied speculation, and I finally feel like the show has caught up to the books to the point that the Sullied can start doing some earnest speculations of our own, so I would definitely like to see a post like that. If nobody else takes you up on the suggestion of writing something, I just might.
For the sake of anyone who does wind up wanting to write a post, do you guys have any style/length/miscellaneous requirements or guidelines for posts on here? Besides the obvious spelling and writing stuff good.
Another excellent episode in the bag! Hard to believe we are already halfway through the season!
While I enjoyed the entirety of Season Five so far, there was just something special about last night’s episode. The eerie and unsettling feeling that it provided made for some great dramatic tension and uneasy portent of things to come.
Just a well paced and directed episode. And I don’t know why, even after all these years of reading the novels and watching the show, whenever anyone says “Winter Is Coming” and mention The Others…the hairs on the back of my neck stand up…LOL! Even last night when Jon was speaking…and Sam…there is nothing like the inevitability of impending, catastrophic doom coming your way to put things into perspective!
I liked the scene with Old Valyria, the poem of the Doom courtesy of Tyrion and Jorah…Some may say that perhaps the ruins were not to scale, given how impressive Valyria is always described…but I found this depiction to be very effective and well done.
Just to point out, my country of origin ended up as a province of the Roman Empire, a conquest started by Julius Caesar himself and brought to an end by the great Trajan. There are ruins from both Romans and Greek settlers that came to the region, spread throughout. I always found the ruins fascinating, because they allowed my imagination to fly away and create in my mind a vivid picture of who these people were, what they looked like, the things they did, how they lived their lives…and to this day I find that way of imagining more effective than any 3D rendering or CGI animation I’ve seen on the History Channel or the Discovery Channel…That is the way I approach reading about Valyria in the novels or seeing it last night on the show.
I would also like to mention how glad and proud I am to see a fellow Canadian direct an episode of “Game Of Thrones”. I had wanted and wished for Jeremy Podeswa to be on this show since the very first season! He is an excellent director and his work speaks for itself! As does his portfolio!
It was also beyond cool to see Jeremy Podeswa reunited with Stephen Dillane. Some years back both Podeswa and Dillane worked on a little gem of a movie, I continue to wholeheartedly recommend, called “Fugitive Pieces”…
As for HBO and others “spoiling” the fate of Ser Barristan Selmy, please! As if it was too hard to guess what happened. Besides, that was a case of damned if you do and damned if you don’t! Hadn’t they showed that image in the preview, people would have complained that the episode ending in such a cliffhanger was unfair and badly made…so on and so forth. Those who look to nitpick and complain will always find reasons to do so regardless!
Speaking of which…I continue to have to rethink this site and what it is becoming. I mean really “the scenes at the Wall…were too talkative…too much said and not enough done…”. Are you kidding me? Last week people were complaining that there was too much action and that they didn’t want to see LOTR-like fight scenes included in “Game Of Thrones”…now it is this…Like I mentioned before, in the current and prevailing atmosphere of professional complaining and fake outrage it is best to ignore this annoying buzzing sound…which is really only background noise!
At a time when sci-fi and fantasy fans should be happy and celebrating the success and high profile all these genres have achieved and are continuing to do so, seeing soo many of us just being bitter and constantly dronning on an on about whatever pet peeve seems to have crawled up our asses, is pretty sad. There is a difference between constructive criticism, debate, discussions and feedback…and pure bitching and moaning!
Honestly, with “Game Of Thrones” on HBO, “Penny Dreadful” over on Showtime, “Daredevil” on Netflix and “The Strain” later on this summer on FX…it is a good time to be a nerd-geek!
PS Also a shout out to “Silicon Valley” one of the best comedy shows in recent years! And it doesn’t have a damn laugh track!!!
Delta1212,
Yeah thank you for remembering me !! That makes sense now
Sue the Fury,
Ork! … Hi Sue *waves to the gods*
I am but a mere mortal (who still has tears in his eyes from arya havin’ a larf’s comment) who may fly too close to the sun for such enlightenment. Tempting though 😉
Powerful episode. My second favorite behind the juggernaut that was episode 3.
Lets just vote for Alfie once again.
Delta1212,
Go Delta!
I truly believe you could write a very good analysis of Greyscale and it’s portent. You seem to have a terrific knowledge of the books and write in an insightful way 🙂
Stannis venturing out and not seeing him again until later this season will let other characters have more screen-time, which is the best approach to pace up the plot of other character. This, in my opinion, was the best episode this season so far, even with the addition of character development between Grey Worm and Missandei–a few bonding scenes like that can at times be refreshing from all the rest. The season is really starting to pick up~
I thought this episode was pretty good. The only things I didn’t like was how they combined the Sorrows and Valyia, I mean Valyria should look like how Tyrion descibed it, but instead its just broken buildings and fog. :/ and I thought that Missandei and Grey Worm scene was too cheesy. Other than that I thought this episode was perfect
Chiming in a bit late, so not much to add that hasn’t already been said. Really loved this episode – I like when bits of book dialog make it in, such as Aemon’s speech and Roose’s explanation to Ramsey about his mother. Old Valyria was fantastic and I really got the feeling with this episode that the set up for the season is complete and now the dominoes are starting to fall…
I didn’t even notice that King’s Landing was absent a while after the episode was over, and it dawned on me that it hadn’t been included. Is the first time that’s happened other than the Wall episode last year?
About the preview:
Well, Daenerys ended multiple sentences with something sounding like that in this episode, and in episode 2… :S
Very, very well-paced and great episode. All the points they needed to hit for me were hit. I’m surprised that they also managed to take a macabre story from Roose Bolton’s past and turn into a father-son character building moment. *shiver* Was fun to see his trollish side appear at the dinner table though! Very, very glad that they’re brining the aspect of the northern disgust at the Boltons into the show and working it in through Sansa and Brienne (that ought to be interesting!). Also glad they didn’t torment Sansa in this episode.
TFT,
I’m pretty sure that it means “can’t” and the word order in High Valyrian doesn’t match English. It’d make sense for that to be a pretty common phrase, and ending the sentence on it is just down to syntax for the language.
Well in the real world the German language from which English derives has a very different word order, so much so that in sentences with more than one clause the most important verb is at the end of a sentence and at the end of a cluster of two or three.
The linguist that created it for the show made very complex grammar with influences as diverse as French and Bantu!
And in Russian you can say either “I can’t release you” or ” I Release you can’t”, the word order doesn’t matter because the grammatical markers make the Subject/verb/object meaning explicit whatever the word order.
I enjoyed how the “Sorrows” scene played out, almost exactly as we had speculated, with creative Valyria exposition, ruins, a Drogon sighting/flyover, Stone Men attack, Tyrion falling overboard and pulled down by a Stone Man, Jorah saving him but contracting greyscale. So many cool parallels with canon. Interesting adaptation.
I also like the greyscale possibilities discussed by several others above. Does temporary “drowning” or “false death” affect the body’s immunity toward greyscale? Does greyscale have magical qualities or is it a perversion of magic? Does it eventually kill the host but preserve it from other vile options? I’m looking forward to where this is going as well.
One thing about the Drogon flyover….Jorah had to know that was Drogon. He was almost as close to them as Dany was for “3” showyears. It would have been nice for him to say to Tyrion…“That’s Drogon…” which would have had an additional powerful affect. Also, if dragons have heightened sensibilities, wouldn’t Drogon have sensed (seen/smelled) Jorah as well? The scene had an endearing “follow me back to Meereen” feeling to it, as if Drogon has a plan….
Shock Me,
Same with me….I was hoping to see Nymeria or one of the other direwolves.
Half way through the season and BG is still alive. My main gripe. Good episode though.
Arya havin’ a larf?,
I speak German at a roughly B1/B2 level, so between that and some dabbling with Irish Gaelic and it’s VSO sentence constructions, I’m intimately familiar with the crazy word positioning you get between languages.
(It wasn’t until I started trying to help some German speakers with learning English that I really noticed a lot of the quirks in our own language. The use of ‘do’ in questions and negations really makes no sense when you stop and think about it.)
Arya havin’ a larf?,
You think Russian has flexible word order, you should take a look at Latin. It treats it’s word order like the pirate code: really more of a guideline than a rule.
MAN, so much to talk about. I agree, great episode – and I far more appreciate a talky dialogue littered with clues to the future than a decently-choreographed fight scene that sucks up time and does little more than to tell us, “Boy howdy, those boys sure got themselves in trouble now!”
The Boltons: Perfect acting, and teaches us that they will both do what it takes to get what they want, raping and all. Excellent acting, and necessary just in case someone gets their head cut off in the (hopefully) upcoming Battle of Winterfell – one or both may die, but their motivations and acts will have ripples into the future of the North, and we need to be informed of them as a viewing audience.
The Problem of Sansa: The biggest criticism I read about last week was LF’s decision to leave Sansa, arguing that he had to know that she would meet her doom. Well, I think that’s true, but I think Myranda plays an important part in the solution to Sansa’s problem. Because what’s the only way to stop a madman from mutilating his toy? Having to stop SOMEONE ELSE from mutilating his toy. Myranda will serve as the plot decoy to buy Sansa some time before Myranda ultimately dies (c’mon, she’s toast), and THEN Ramsay will turn to Walda, there will be a father-against-son struggle, and Sansa will slip out – with Brienne? Without Brienne? With Theon, into the snow? (Why yes, probably – Theon witnessing the bedding will be what it takes to snap him back into himself and take charge to whisk Sansa out of there). (And I take this moment to point out the upcoming Problem of Yara – she’s listed in the IMDB for at least one later episode this season – why do we still care if there’s no Kingsmoot? Are we just keeping her around as the only tie to the Iron Isles just in case HBO demands an eighth season and the producers have to fill with Fun With Drowned Men?)
Greyscale: Knew it. Jorah is Jon Con and there is no more room for fake Targs and that storyline is effectively collapsed. Tyrion’s leg got grabbed – is this a clue for us to see in later previews that reminds us that he is special, since he didn’t get the disease and still had contact? Probably not, but fun to think about. The BIG question, which many of you have mentioned – what does it mean that Jorah has it? Is it just to turn him into a MORE tragic character? Is it to show that Greyscale is coming to Westeros? I don’t know, I disagree with the Greyscale Vector Theory – if it can sneak into Stannis’s castle in a doll, I don’t see how THIS guy carrying it would matter – wouldn’t people just get shipped off to Valyria as soon as they contracted it? Seems like a common practice in Westeros now. I almost wonder if, instead of White Walkers vs. Stone Men, greyscale in Jorah just ends up being a disease with no cure that Melisandre/a Red Priest/the Old Gods cure once he gets to Westeros. Greyscale isn’t a threat, but it’s the device to show that the MOST incurable thing ever can be cured by The Magics. Shireen was cured – was that the way Melisandre came to Stannis to begin with?
Stannis and Sam: Just when I thought The Citadel was out of play – here comes Stannis, confusing me again. Maybe it’s like y’all said – a nod to the collapse of another storyline from the books. Aemon talking about “freezing to death” – especially after funeral pyre pics – makes me wonder if that’s a nod to the fact that, no, he’s not gonna ride a ship off into the warm sunset like we thought. I HOPE it indicates that Sam will stay at the wall and learn all he can about The Others from the best source – the libraries at Castle Black – instead of head off on a goose chase to Braavos/Old Town. The former has been taken care of by Meryn Trant – the latter, I can only hope, will be too. Because if Sam leaves then….
Jon Snow: ….is truly alone. He’s gonna get his, and I worry even more that it’ll be from Olly at the end. Question is, though – if the audience isn’t reminded about warging over the next few episodes, and Melisandre isn’t there, then how does he come back?
Stannis Party Westeros: Is my biggest blind spot. I can only hope for an epic battle where magic also comes into play (see: Melisandre’s warnings), but how can the North have a grand conspiracy brewing if both of the Boltons get cut down? No, it’ll be some soul-crushing GRRM plot twist – Stannis And Company stuck in the snow forever, Boltons having time to be terrible, Melisandre ultimately sacrificing someone to get them out of whatever problem they’re in, Sansa and Theon sneaking out before the calvary rides in….
Brienne and Pod: ….and Brienne and Pod wandering around aimlessly. I’m not the type of fan to demand my favorite character get more screen time – really, everyone is valuable to everyone else’s storyline and trajectory – but they just seem like a real waste. And Brienne is gonna have to be around a really long time if Jaime is her plotline’s ultimate goal. Nah, I think she ends up being a casualty at the end of the season – because otherwise her sole purposes have been 1) moping and 2) being a tiny nucleus around which The North Remembers keeps popping up.
Dany: Okay, I disagree with the Mad King theory. I really do. EVEN IF GRRM had wanted it that way in the books, she’s just become too big of a fan favorite. If Dany ended up bad/hostile/the problem at the end of the show, then the legacy with the Unsullied would be: Worst. Series. Ever. There’s enough death and suffering to go around without turning the Mother of Dragons into a demon.
Look, I don’t quibble with her decision to parade the Masters down and have one of them burned. If you can’t let your dragons out – and completely have lost control of the city – you’re going to have to walk someone down and BBQ them, saying, “Look, they follow MY command, don’t forget who you’re messing with.” I think – hope – that Barristan’s death served to be the Last Straw with Dany – you can’t do nothing, you’re going to have to be strong. And, while the leap between roasting a master and then marrying one was a little abrupt, I think it showed what another person said here earlier – both she and Jon are learning that a leader must have at least some of their own gut instincts and listen to themselves. She kept prompting Missandei for advice – and her advice was that Dany should trust herself. Should be interesting when Jorah and Tyrion show up.
At the end of the day, I don’t think GRRM would write a completely unburnable, mystical, Mother of Dragons into a story – someone whose powers stand out far more than any other character in the book, in my mind – complete with the damn comet – and then say “Just kiddinggggggg, she’s evil and busted.” That’s Mad King-level-crazy.
I could derail this thread totally with linguistics talk!
My favourite bit of Valyrian was from season 3 in Astapori dialect:
Si kizy vasko v’uvar ez zya gundja yn hilas.
“And this because I like the curve of her ass.”
I am feeling a bit wishy-washy about this season because it feels like everything has been teetering on the edge of something, then pulls back. Five episodes of filler and the character development has laid only on a select few (Jon, Stannis, Ramsey, Marg, Sansa too but her is a story entwined in others and I hate the Ramsey connection! GRR). But between the Stannis/Shireen moment last week and the Tyrion/Jorah meet the Stone Men this week? WOW!
Next to Arya/Sandor from 3 & 4, I think Tyrion/Jorah are my favorite traveling duo.
I think we got spoiled the last few seasons with moment after moment that punch you in a gut. And while there has been great moments thus far in season 5, it has just felt a wee bit different in tone. Less in your face, more quiet meandering through plots to get to the meaty stuff. But if moments like the emotional punch between Stannis/Shireen keep coming and the “holy shit!” action between Tyrion/Jorah keep up, I look forward to the next 5.
A truly stunning episode, had such an ominous feel the whole way through, really haunting and eerie.
Cogman continually rocks, episode had so many book references, and the pacing was on point.
Score was just wow. Wow.
Winterfall, Wall and Meereen were all incredible this week again. Truly the best cast on TV.
Highlight for me was Theon and Sansa. So much heartbreak and pent up fury in their meeting, you know it’ll only build and build.
Stone Men was amazing! Valyria looked amazing, glad the complaints about how it looked aren’t as vociferous as I thought, given time and budgetary constraints, they did a brill job.
And finally Jorah. That moment has to be the saddest in a long time. Ugh. I knew he was lying to Tyrion about not having it.
I was thinking the same thing.
Shock Me,
Truth. They are on my short list of “Minor characters I wish had more to do” along with Hyle Hunt and Rodrik the Reader.
Me too… I really love how the show has put so much effort into making Valyrian (and Dothraki before it) actually sound like living, breathing, real languages – complete with their own regional dialects and etymology. It makes my inner Tolkien smile! 🙂
And for inside jokes, the Meereen champion quoting Monty Python translated into Valyrian is nothing short of epic!
This episode was wack. It’s clear, that without Martin’s source material the magic of the series isn’t there.
I loved this episode – it was a close second behind High Sparrow for my favorite installment of the season to date. The narrower focus was a big reason why I thought it worked so well. I really appreciate that over the past couple of seasons, the writers have become more willing to concentrate on a smaller number of storylines in a given episode and give them time to breathe rather than spending a few minutes on virtually every character. In particular, I loved how much time we got to spend in Winterfell this episode. That storyline is still in the process of setting everything up for future payoffs, but I found every moment we spent there utterly riveting. With the luxury of time, we were allowed to fully settle in to this beloved place that has become a den of horrors, and the atmosphere and tension that those scenes evoked saturated the entire episode (it helped that most of the sunnier climates weren’t featured this week, and most of Dany’s scenes in Meereen were shot inside the pyramid, in darkness). Yes, there was no Cersei, no Jaime, and no Arya in this episode, but the other storylines were so rich and well-paced that I didn’t miss them. Judging by the preview, we’ll get a lot of those characters next week.
Meereen
Dany’s decision to feed Master Eaton (ha) to her dragons may have been capricious and driven by grief, but watching Rhaegal and Viserion burn the poor man alive and then tear his body to shreds was wickedly cool. I’ve been very pleased with how much dragon action we have seen already this season, and knowing that it’s all a prelude to Daznak’s Pit has only heightened my anticipation for the scale of that sequence. I also thought Joel Fry gave a great performance as Hizdahr, both when he was attempting to be courageous in the catacombs and later when he confessed his fear in the cell. I’m very interested to see if Hizdahr will be revealed to have been in league with the Sons of the Harpy, or if he is truly as innocent as he professes to be. If it’s the former, he’s doing a fine job of playing possum.
I thought the Missandei/Grey Worm moment was extremely sweet, and wonderfully played by Nathalie Emmanuel and Jacob Anderson. Their love story is never going to be universally beloved in this fandom, but I’m still fully on board.
The Wall
Jon and Tormund’s shared history lent a significant amount of weight to their scene together – the mutual if grudging respect that those two characters share is evident, even if they don’t fully trust one another. Jon’s determination to save the wildlings despite the intransigence of his fellow brothers is being set up really well. The discord in the Night’s Watch over Jon’s decision was certainly ominous (even Edd spoke up against it). The groundwork has definitely been laid for Jon’s stabbing, Pink Letter or no Pink Letter. Also, after months of uncertainty, this episode all but confirmed that Sam will be going to Oldtown after all!
It’s interesting to note that the picture that Sue included in her recap of Alliser Thorne confronting Tormund definitely wasn’t in the episode. Given that Tormund still appears to be chained in that picture, I assume the scene in question was slated to take place before Tormund was brought to Jon, and it was unfortunately cut rather than moved to say, next week’s episode. If so, that’s the second consecutive week that a promotional photo has provided evidence of a deleted scene (after the photo of Obara meditating while Nym and Tyene argue from the last episode). Unlike last week, this episode ran long, so I can understand if the scene was cut for reasons related to time or pacing. But I’d like Tormund and Alliser interact again, given what happened the last time they clashed. I hope that scene will be included on the DVD.
Winterfell
It might be an overstatement to say that this episode “humanized” Ramsay, but spending this much time on him definitely provided us with a better understanding of why he is the way that he is. I loved watching Roose shut down his games at dinner, and later deliver that brutal speech about Ramsay’s conception. I’ve said this many times before, but it bears repeating – Michael McElhatton is so goddamn good. He also delivered my favorite line-reading of the night when he told Ramsay that Stannis was coming to take the North “but the North is ours. It’s yours and mine.” When I heard those words, I thought back on everything those two have done to lay claim their kingdom, and chills went down my spine. Stannis may ultimately defeat the Boltons, but they are not going to be easily dispatched.
Sansa and Theon’s reunion was wonderfully played by both Sophie Turner and Alfie Allen. Looking forward to seeing how that relationship develops. Also, I loved Sansa’s little smirk towards her intended when Roose told Ramsay that the child that Walda was carrying was likely to be a boy.
Essos
Seeing the ruins of Valyria was an awe-inspiring moment – it was everything I had hoped it would be. Tyrion and Jorah reciting the poem about the Doom told us everything we needed to know with perfect economy, and doubled as a nice bonding moment for their characters. And having been eagerly anticipating the appearance of the Stone Men all season, I was not disappointed. Jorah contracting greyscale is a twist that was widely predicted, but now that it’s actually confirmed, I’m eager to see just how significant that development will be. I assume that he will ultimately bring the disease to Westeros, but since we know he’s going to Meereen first, it’s clear that this storyline is going to be a slow burn. In the meantime, it should give Iain Glen a lot of great material to play.
To me this episode:
Boom. Infect all of Westeros including the White Walkers with greyscale – because the cure to greyscale is drowning (and resuscitation) and you can’t bring dead things back to life.
Who needs Dragons? Or Iron Thrones? Or Dragonglass?
…I want a Dragon…
I am rewatching the episode and i noticed the following:
EDIT:
Haha, just saw your post. Love it.
How could I forget that? Thx.
Regardless of the inner turmoil that must be brewing in lieu of all these monstrous situations and personalities in her life, I rather like how they are putting Sansa on a “slow burn” track. Her actions are subtle and amazingly in control. She never partook of the wine toast. She was quick to detect and pounce on a possible Ramsay insecurity. And she was quick to assert herself regarding Winterfell as home. But she didn’t react to Ramsay’s mocking “North remembers.” Interesting…she and Arya defy their actual age.
So much evil and sociopathic behavior surrounding her. Will she use some of her observations of dysfunctional Bolton dynamics to her advantage? Will she be soon exposed to the known behavior that defines the Boltons…the flaying, the hunting, the dog-feeding, the torture, the betrayal…what will set her self-preservation in motion? Or will she need an outside force (Brienne/Pod, Stannis, LF’s return) to escalate her, like before?
What’s a girl to do?
(I’m trying to warm up to this crazy show-only arc)
Abyss,
Works for a lot of people, too…..
He gets turned on by pain though so its quite possible that he’d still hurt her if he was.
Wow…I missed that. Wtf? I would love to have seen that confrontation. Those two almost killed each other last season in one of the best fight scenes in the show…Oh, the words that would have been spat at one another! And then to have a follow-up with Tormund freed! Wow…definitely a missed opportunity.
Is it possible that Maester Ammon knows that
Assuming that R+L=J of course.
Wolf Lover,
They cannot do the wolf dreams until they are going to lead to something. In serial TV like this, a gun hung in Episode 3 needs to be fired by Episode 9 or 10.
(They grayscale and Stonemen are a nice example of that; it was just a wall hanging prior to this year, but they put it on the wall and then fired it quite nicely.)
On the grayscale note, I wonder where they are headed with this. In the books, it is not contagious and fairly difficult to contract; here, it is much easier to get, at least from a full Stoneman. (The fact that Shireen gave it to nobody and that Gillians’ family did not get it from the two sisters that had it suggests that its not contagious before then.). Of course, perhaps something curing greyscale (possibly involving dragons) is going to be relevat to the plot in the future, so we need a prominent character to have it. (The character used in the book would not do, even if he had been introduced this year: this would be something where the audience needs to be attached to the character.)
Luka Nieto,
……”.and that’s what I wanted but I wound up here, at Castle Black” then shrugs and hangs head a bit.
Lady Wolfsbane,
The only thing that got touched was Tyrion’s boot, not his skin. Although one could argue that just touching his boot was enough–ie, the doll had it on its surface so that transferred to Shireen’s skin. BUT he was in the water and perhaps the water diluted it enough. Whereas, Jorah, I think had skin to skin contact.
Not gonna lie, I totally expected the rotting body of Rob with Direwolf head sewn on it at the end of the kennels. I kinda had a ‘duh’ moment when I saw Theon/reek.
I do wonder, however, if the North remembers how high that tower is? And, um, how is she supposed to make it up there if she’s in trouble?
Also loved opening with Dany, cutting to Aemon, then Jon walking in. Yaassss.
Excellent! There is a method to this madness!
StandOzone,
Sometimes writers write a lit more than they need to write, and GRRM is a paragon of that. Of course, publishing firms do not take Fantasy very seriously, so they also do not stick their crack editors on it. (A good editor would have redacted LSH’s appearance in Swords if GRRM admitted that LSH was not going to be relevant in Dragons, and might recommend scrapping LSH altogether if GRRM does not have a big use for her in Winter: which, frankly, I doubt that he does.)
MotherOfMadness,
It would be a bit late for that! At this point, they body would be long past rotting, even in the North.
I think that a soft “or” rather than a hard one is in order here: I suspect that there will be some of both. The big change, of course, is that for the first time with Sansa, it will be both, rather than just other people placing her as they will.
I think i missed some sort of 80’s- style montage showing how Dany managed to win back control of her dragons to a point where they will stay silent at the approach of a dozen people, and obey her command at a word…
Won’t need to bother reading the last two books soon!
Jared,
What do you think of Grayscale replacing the Pale Mare that is used in the book to up the ante in Dany’s storyline? So instead of having two diseases, one in Westeros and one in Meereen, it’s just one in both places. That would be an economical use of it. Maybe even an outbreak of Grayscale in Westeros may prompt Dany to return sooner rather than later. So many interesting possibilities!
Doran’s Gouty Foot,
Apparently, Doran’s foot isn’t the only thing that’s gouty
Favorite episode this season. Felt pretty eh about the Missandei/Grey Worm scene, but all in all very solid directing and writing.
Where do you get the idea Greyscale is not contagious in the books? Those with greyscale are isolated to the Sorrows, so there aren’t active cases running around the general population, but both JC and Jorah get it the same way, by having skin to skin contact with someone with an active case (a stoneman). Shireen’s case is either cured, leaving only scars, or dormant. They have knowledge of the disease north of the Wall, and based upon Val’s reaction to Shireen, they’re terrified of it. Thus, it appears to me it is not only contagious, but just as “easy” to contract in the show as it is in the books.
Hodor’s Bastard,
Haha 🙂
I find it a little funny that it almost seemed like Roose was half begging Ramsey when he asked him to fight Stannis with him. I guess it made him look slightly weaker..almost scared of Ramsey which I personally don’t think should be the case at all I mean Roose is “a force, a force to be reckoned with” (lol) and he doesn’t even have to ask …Ramsey is going to probably end up being the Bolton downfall. The potrayal of both of those characters is some pretty awesome acting… even if its slightly different than the books. Show is awesome just some minor thought by someone that’s watched it 3 times already. .
Wimsey,
True lol I just expected something super awful. (Well, I guess it was, but still)
I’m coming to terms with the show now just kinda being it’s own animal at this point. I no longer know what to expect, which is alright, I s’pose.
Jaime’sHand1220,
I think it’s less “Oh please sweet son, for the sake of our family, help me win” and more “Hey dude, focus, don’t go all Froot Loops on me, we’ve got a whole Realm to keep.”
Dame Pasty,
I’m thinking that grayscale is simply a lot cooler to show on TV than viscous bouts of diarrhea!
Hodor’s Body Double,
I accept that
For anyone that watches SOA
Jaime’sHand1220,
I think he was playing on Ramsey’s obvious weak spot. Being displaced, then reeling him back in.
Hodor’s Bastard,
Best Sansa synopsis EVER!! Just a note re:the wardrobe-she only had a few feathers, one dress close enough to her size to be altered and only a day or two to put the ensemble together. The dangling needle on the “no Sansa here” necklace ties the whole thing together too. Now both she and Arya have needles!!! Tada!
Absolutely! The show is providing the framework for the endgame that the books have not provided. I cheered when I heard the mention of The Citadel and Sam’s comment about wanting to be a maester.
Delta1212,
Excellent insight. The story is moving so quickly. As a book reader, I am appreciating many of the details and smaller moments (such as Jon entering the room as Aemon is discussing the Targaryens).
Hodor’s Bastard,
I’m still not sure how I feel about Sansa’s story line and it has nothing to do with the differences between show and book. There are a lot of moving parts to it, least of which are the engaging duo of Roose and Ramsay. There’s a reason why we have the elderly Stark supporters, Brienne and Pod hanging around WF and jealous Myranda. A lot of characters and story lines are about to converge. I wonder if these events may take us past ADWD and into TWOW material.
Simple: the book describes it as being very much opposite of that! (The book does allude to a related “gray plague” but it also makes note that it’s different.) At any rate, grey scale pretty clearly is not a “plague” disease and it’s causes seem to be environmental: if I recall, then the book notes that cold and damp places seem to harbor it: they blame it on “humors” in the air of such places. They do fear direct contact with a full-fledged stoneman: but that only indicates that it might be contagious once it gets to the final stages.
GRRM seems to have some analog of leprosy here, where people contract it by exposure to particular bacteria (magical or otherwise) under particular circumstances. Now, there is some indication that people can catch it from one another, but only after truly prolonged contact (e.g., people who spend their lives working with lepers): and even that might simply be the contractor being exposed to the source rather than other victims. However, GRRM might simply have contact with full-fledged stone-men be an analog of that.
This is in contrast to plagues GRRM has mentioned, which have been attributed to rats on ships and that seem to act more like bubonic plague. Of course, more learned men would know that it’s the humours that the rats carry, where still more learned men would know that it’s humours that tiny insects on the rats carry…. 🙂
Now, it is true that the Wildlings believe that it’s contagious, despite what the Maesters say: but Wildling lore probably gives a Texan science book a run for the money in silliness. Of course, people who live in such harsh realities adopt harsh superstitions in order to survive. If you cannot afford to let the weak live, then you kill them and adopt beliefs sanctioning it: that is what humans have always done.
Hofgh,
alikat,
Just curious.
Wimsey,
Dame Pasty,
The possibility that a greyscale outbreak could replace the Pale Mare in Meereen certainly crossed my mind once Jorah’s infection was confirmed. Using this now well-established disease in place of another disease that has never been mentioned on the show would be the kind of efficient and logical condensation that the show has made quite effectively over the years (not that the Pale Mare is a particularly complicated disease, but it would require at least a cursory explanation and demonstration of its pathogenecity – things that the show has already established for greyscale).
That being said, I would personally bet against a greyscale outbreak taking place in Meereen. The issue is timing. While the Pale Mare is a highly communicable disease that kills quickly, greyscale has been established as a slow-acting disease that is transmitted by touch. Presumably the affliction will progress faster in the show than it does in the novels, but it will be a while before it takes full affect. We know from the trailers that Jorah will still be healthy enough to fight in the pits by the end of the season. Assuming he survives and is being set up to bring the disease to Westeros, then the infection will still need to be in an early enough stage that he is able to conceal it from Dany and the others (if he goes full Stone Man too quickly, she won’t let him on to her boat, let alone into her Kingdoms). Given that his infection is likely to progress slowly, how many people could he really transmit the disease to in Meereen? And how far could that outbreak really extend?
I suppose it’s also possible that there will be no large-scale greyscale outbreak at all, and infecting Jorah with the disease is just a way to cast a shadow of doom over his character before he makes his final tragic sacrifice, wherever and whenever that might be. I think that there will be more to it than that, but even now I’m wary of stating that “Greyscale is coming to Westeros!” with absolute certainty.
I agree that Jorah being infected with greyscale introduces a number of interesting narrative guns that could potentially be fired on the show. The disease is certainly set up to play a much bigger role in this universe than I initially would have guessed. But I doubt that those guns are going to fired in Slaver’s Bay because hopefully (hopefully) our time in that cursed land is approaching an imminent end.
Did they take any wildlings prisoner apart from Tormund and Mance and a few of his men? Because we haven’t seen any wildling prisoner camps north of the wall this season, Stannis and his men have left Castle Black and apparently the bulk of the wildlings are at Hardhome.
I don’t think it does. The Stone men are isolated so they don’t spread it to others. JC contracts it by skin to skin contact, not prolonged exposure, and while I haven’t read it in a while, I seem to remember talk of how you one must avoid skin to skin contact with Stonemen, because that is how it is spread. Now, it may be for it to become so contagious, it does need to be an advanced case, but otherwise, it doesn’t seem to be any more easily contracted in the show than it is in the books.
honeyimhome,
Hah! I doubt it is anywhere near “the best”, but thanks! Sansa’s arc is truly an “Out of the Frying Pan and into the Fire” story. I also hope she puts her “needle” to good use. It’s just hanging there! 🙂
mariamb,
I’m in the process of “eating my hat” regarding Sansa’s storyline. Although I’m not crazy about the logic at Winterfell this season, I’m in this for the long haul.
JamesL,
Really! It was the Joker who said, “What doesn’t kill you only makes you stranger!” So Ramsey’s reply of “very strange indeed” to Sansa’s “not a strange place, only strange people” was jokerish and perfectly amusing. The scariest and most heinous folks usually have split personalities. Never knowing which one will be at home keeps everybody on their toes!
JC contracts it from his dunk in the water, not from a stoneman. He got it while saving Thorin. Or Grumpy. Whichever. At any rate, Andvare is very worried that he might have it for the same reasons: hence, all the poking. Whatever the contagion is, it probably is relatively concentrated in that water.
Some of their party is worried that you can get it from the fog: that would be one of those things that in the real world would be tough to actually test. It could simply be that people near the fog are more prone to getting enough of the adjacent water into their system that they come down with the disease. Alternatively, possibly there are even lower concentrations of the bacterium in dense fog such that there is a chance of getting it through the fog that is some small fraction of a chance of getting it from the water.
Anyways, much like that awful aftertaste in Coors Beer, it’s probably the water…..
Lion of Night,
Lion, I’ll take a stab – this episode made me wonder if Aemon doesn’t make the whole reveal happen – perhaps to Jon or Sam or someone else, when he’s on his deathbed, so that the cold, quiet secret will be isolated (because if it’s some grand LF proclamation, then if I’m Cersei or the Boltons I’m sending an assassin right up to the Wall).
He knows about the Targs because they’re family – entrusting the secret with Sam could give him a little more to do than come up with handy plot fixes in nameless, dusty tomes. And then we’re like “NOOO tell JONNN WHYYYY” for a whole season. Creates more suspense.
Otherwise, I’m still holding out hope that there’s an outside Howland Reed Theory reveal from a very prominent actor who they decided to place in a seemingly non-prominent role – anyone can be a butcher of the royalty, but few can be a butcher with a tidy motive.
….or maybe Aemon or someone tell Davos and then we’ve got a reason to keep him around? Because I’d really like to keep him around.
Also, regarding GS – it seems like Stannis talks about taking a lot of time to find people from “across the world” to cure Shirreen – while it could be slower in children, it only got half of her face. I think it’s a slow burn, and I still think Jorah can hide it when they head to Westeros – or else has to reveal it in order to stay behind – thereby breaking Dany’s heart the moment she actually finally falls in love with him…..question mark?
JamesL,
Here Be Dragons,
Has no one noticed Sansa’s sly smirk at Ramsey when Walda’s new offspring announcement damn near knocks him off his chair? I think Sansa has learned not to give anyone a foothold on her emotions or feelings. She has finally learned not to trust anyone.
For the most part, I loved the episode. The only thing that makes me give it the side-eye is Myranda because I really don’t want to watch some sort of Fatal Attraction story line. Sansa has enough on her plate without the added addition of being stalked by a nutbag. Hopefully this story line ends either very quickly or with Sansa scaring the ever loving hell out of Myranda.
Delta1212,
Excellent piece of analysis.
Agree – great insight. Greyscale is obviously a factor in the endgame – a point that I overlooked.
Jared,
What I can’t wrap my mind around is
I just don’t know how GRRM and D&D as a result, are going to get out of that “mess”.
In the same episode she walks into a kennel full of angry dogs just because some girl she just met told her there’s some mysterious surprise at the end. Why do that? Because the plot needs her to.
As far as “not giving anyone a foothold on her emotions or feelings”, both her emotions and feelings are blatantly obvious throughout the dinner scene. She’s not hiding her dislike of them at all.
We don’t even know THAT will happen.
unless I missed something in the reading.
LOOOL!
Hey Theon already lost his FPM like Bruce Jenner plans to …
Lauren,
I’m not wild about the nutbag aspect of it either. It is one reason why I am approaching the “Sansa in WF” story line with trepidation. There is enough going at WF and it is only going to get crazier. Jealous Myranda needs to be disposed of soon.
Lion of Night,
I do not think that the disease could be introduced or reintroduced to Westeros. If it is as in the book, then it would be tough to introduce it: you would need either an army of stonemen, or something to introduce the conditions found near the Sorrows/Valyria.
We have one of several directions coming up. One, Jorah is going to die heroically later this season or next (or the one after!) in part because he’s got nothing to lose. Two, Jorah gets healed by a Red Priest due to the renewed powers that the followers of R’hllor seem to have now that dragons are back (which might or might not be the cause). Three, some other aspect of proximity to or involvement with dragons will alter this: dragons are, after all, the sign of Daeny’s rule. Four, something of which I’ve not thought!
The story itself might provide some hint. Jorah’s not a protagonist, but he is on a “kill the wretch, let the man be re-born” arc as he sort of is in the books. They might be amping up the “wretch” bit. If so, however, then there will be some ascendance similar to what we see with
in the books.
Wimsey,
Then why doesn’t Tyrion contract it? According to the ASOIAF wiki Gray Scale affects children who, if they survive, are rendered immune to the rarer fatal form, which is grey plague. In other words, Grey Plague is what Jorah has…the virulent kind that passes by touch. Whereas Shireen had Grey Scale (is it Grey or Gray?) and she has an immunity to the other kind. In this case it behaves much like measles do. Children usually get it and while they are actively sick they can give it to anyone else. It is more deadly for adults than for children. And if children survive they have immunity.
I posited in my brush up videos (two weeks or so ago) that Shireen
honeyimhome,
Yes, in full view of Roose. Boy she’s smart.
Was expecting that kennel door to slam.
But in many ways, there was not enough happening at WF for the show. Only one lead character is there in the books: and telling a story with only one character is a lot harder than doing it with two: or, as it is now, three. The one huge benefit of what they are doing is that Theon’s, Sansa’s and Brienne’s contributions to the story now all get the other two’s contributions for direct support/contrast.
On a side note, I really like what they’ve done with Brienne’s storyline. That is because it is what I thought it was from the book, for two reasons. 1) I like being correct; 2) I consider being correct from guessing to be no better than being wrong, and I did have to “guess” a little bit because it was so poorly written in the book: the fact that I don’t have to guess at all is a big plus from me.
When did that Tormund and Thorne moment happened? I don’t think it was in last episode…
So why do they need Jealous Myranda?
Ser Duncan The Tall,
You’re not alone!!!
I’m not sure why you think JonCon got it from the water, but I don’t believe that’s the case. I believe he came into direct contact with a Stoneman.
Disease contraction is always probabilistic, never deterministic. Exposure to a disease increases the chances of someone getting it, but it never guarantees it. For example, most of the dangerous bacteria that get into you get killed one way or another: but sometimes some of them hit the lottery, and you get sick. Look at it this way: people are very worried that Tyrion might have it after his swim, after all; the flip-side of that worry is that they understand that Tyrion might not have it.
Of course, there are those who use this as evidence that
It certainly is evidence of that: but the probability of Tyrion not contracting the disease given that everything is as we are told would be pretty high, too. After all, it’s not like a local Septa is proclaiming this to be some miracle!
On a side note, there is no way that something like
would be a cure for this sort of disease, particularly if it is modeled after leprosy as it appears. In general, you have to treat these sorts of diseases by poisoning them: and that’s actually what we see them attempt in the books. Now, he might work out something involving four day old loaves of bread: that would be more realistic!
But on the topic of realistic, realistically, it’s hard to see how this could fit into the story. It would be arbitrary plot for the sake of plot: any “foes” in this sort of tale need to be: 1) of the sentient variety where the lead characters can at least relate to the “antagonist’s” goals; and, 2) of the sort where there is some “damned if you do/don’t” aspect of dealing with that foe.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Jorah: “Stone men! Don’t let them touch you!”
Tyrion: “Are they contagious?”
Jorah: “Pffft, no. That’s not possible. But they may lure you into drinking the water, which by my scientific deduction is only how greyscale spreads. Only drink bottled water around here.” *holds up Evian bottle*
Tyrion: “Fuck you.”
Wimsey,
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
In the most recent post, the Post Mortem by Sue the Fury, there is a video of GRRM talking about the disease and he says it’s by touch. So it’s not the water.
I think that because that is what the book states! At any rate, JC certainly thinks that is how he got it: after all, he partially blames Tyrion (JC doesn’t go into the water if not for him), and consoles himself that he (JC) did it only because Tyrion had just saved his foster-son. He does not attribute it to contact with a stoneman: indeed, insofar as we know, he did not come into contact with one.
Moreover, Hadon & the others worry that Tyrion got it from the water. So, pretty clearly people think that the water is the source. Tyrion himself notes that the disease is most common in environments like the Sorrows. So, it seems to be the sort of disease where the victims have to go to it much more than a disease that comes to the victims. Now, the Westerosi and Essosi are not at where, say, we are on these things: but they keep track of things well enough to understand the basic associations for such “humours.”
That written, JC & Co. definitely do not want to be touched by stonemen: but that is consistent with many real diseases where people really are not contagious save in early or late stages. No one seems to worry that Shireen would be contagious, after all: but, then, the disease seemingly halts in children. The Wildlings claim that it doesn’t: but given that they kill all the children with it, they are working from a negative evidence argument whereas the Westerosi and Essosi clearly have actually cases of people like Shireen.
Well, that was some piss-poor writing by GRRM, then! Now, it’s ok to have the people wrong about how the disease is contracted. However, GRRM should have made it clear that JC was actually touched by a stoneman so that he (and the reader) would consider that alternative instead of laying the blame solely on his rescue of Tyrion!
From a biological point of view, water rather than touch would make much more sense for a disease like this. Still, the books do intimate that there might some “magical” association with this: don’t they mention something about the area being wiped out by dragons or something like that?
mariamb,
Jealous Myranda is Myranda in the books just relocated to Bolton’s, if you read the books, book Myranda befriends Alayne but is evidently jealous concerning Harry the Heir and also appears to be extremely kinky too. So all the complainers about her had no merit, just like the books didn’t focus on Theon/Reek torture, but because the show did, naturally Mryanda would be included, because D&D planned this change all along.
Perhaps the Myranda/Missandei haters are just jealous themselves.
Wimsey,
Greyscale is pretty obviously a magical disease, I thought, given how it progresses.
tyjon,
Hmmm. Not quite sure of your point but let me respond anyway.
Show Myranda is a “version” of Book Myranda. They are clearly not the same character. They may share some of the same qualities and, in the long run, their purpose may be the same. However, Book Myranda is not yet a nutbag like Show Myranda. Sansa is having a lot thrown at her in the show. I’m not sure that the crazy, jealous, sadistic girlfriend of her betrothed was necessary right now. Of course, you and I can agree to disagree.
Wimsey,
It was pretty clear to me at least that it was touch in the book too because they say, “don’t let them touch you!” As far as it being magical and dragons curing it? That I have no idea about…don’t remember that at all. You could search the wikis or if you have e-book versions search for all mentions of Gray Scale.
Thanks for the laugh!!! Laughs are always welcome, but especially on Mondays! 🙂
*facepalm*
And reading your assertion your misinterpretation was due to bad writing on the part of the author of the books…
http://gamerindebt.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/double-facepalm.jpg
Dammit, because I had to include a link to a double facepalm, my comment is now in moderation.
Hodor’s Body Double,
Yeah I do think something involving Aemon would be satisfying!
Wimsey,
With the emphasis and foreshadowing of GS this season, I tend to think there must be another reason the disease is relevant. Has Jorah not already come to terms with his situation? He’s got to be pretty desperate to kidnap Tyrion and return to a queen who swore to kill him on sight. That uncertainty is one reason why I think Jorah has already come to terms with his possible death. Sure, the GS might escalate his desperation, but I don’t think GS is necessary for that selfless attitude. In fact Jorah, as a character, has already shown he will risk his like for Dany regardless of any impending danger.
So, I guess my question really is: do you think the firing of the GS gun is solely to doom Jorah, or will it fire again as GS becomes more relevant in some unforeseen way?
Dame Pasty,
Thank you. I had just seen that before I came back over to this article. 🙂
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I approved it for you, no worries. Yes, heaven forfend Wimsey admit he was wrong. Goodness knows we’re all wrong about our pet theories once in a while, so it’s not like we don’t have to eat some humble pie as well. I’ve never heard anyone assert that they didn’t understand it was by touch before or claim the book wasn’t clear on that issue.
Here Be Dragons,
I’m guessing that the dragons seemed a bit more tamed because they felt that Dany was being herself again and embracing her words (Fire and Blood). To me Dany and her dragons have this psychic connection. Remember when Drogon came to visit Dany after she executed that former slave back in E02? He was aware of who Dany was but he flew away because he felt something was off. Truth is Dany hasn’t been herself lately. She’s like a Targaryen-light version of herself and the dragons don’t like it. So when she goes full Targaryen and embraces her words, they feel it. That’s my take on it.
Plus remember Quaithe’s words to Daenerys?
“Remember who you are. The dragons know. Do you?”
ADWD Part 1 – Tyrion’s 4 th POV chapter
Hodor Targaryen,
I thought it made sense. In the first scene she was furious, the Sons of the Harpy just hurt the leader of her army and killed the one person who could give her firsthand information about her family and Westeros, it was impulse, she didn’t think it through, she was pissed and wanted to show the masters she is dangerous and has two freaking dragons who need to eat.
Once she has her vengeance (because that is what the basemnet scene was, vengeance) she tries to bring peace to Meeren by opening the pits and marrying Hizdhar. It shows she is open to new ideas and wants to bring peace to Mereen but she can be ruthless if needed. And I like that the marriage is her idea, it gives her more control of the situation
Dame Pasty,
Thanks! I knew it would get fished out sooner or later, but I appreciate it being done so quickly.
Yeah, there are worse things in the world than being wrong (especially about an idea in a work of fiction). I mean, hey, I certainly prefer to be right, but recently I’ve come to realize being wrong isn’t so bad, as it gives me an opportunity to learn something I didn’t know. I could be wrong in my thinking
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Anytime I can make a GoT fan laugh on a Monday, I consider it a successful day. 😀
That meme is the best!!!!
Wait, the still of Tormund, which scene is that? I can’t remember it from the episode :/
One, that only means that they thought that there were multiple ways to get it. I do not dispute that they were worried that being touched by a stoneman might give you the disease. However, the book plainly states that it also is thought that “humours” in regions like the Sorrows also cause it. And the book also plainly states that they think it was the water that might give it to Tyrion. After all (and I cannot understress this): that is why JC thinks that he has it.
Two, and this is more critical: GRRM never tells us in the book that one of them touched JC. Tyrion should have seen it or JC should have recounted it. And that is simply bad storytelling on GRRM’s part: to riff on Chekhov, that is asking us to imagine that there was a gun on the wall. We are paying GRRM to do the imagining here! Again, it’s OK for JC to be wrong about it: but we have to know that he might be wrong and that something else happened that might account for the disease.
(Of course, this also introduces other potential problems: Shireen obviously never came into contact with a stoneman, so how did she get it? If it is easily communicable, then why didn’t people around her get it? GRRM might have written himself an epidemiological plot hole!)
Of course, it (hopefully) all be largely moot. It would be a huge mistake for GRRM to do much with grayscale in the stories. The Others, R’hllor, etc., all fit within his Faulkneresque stories because they probably are going to present the protagonists (and us) with some real dilemmas. Disease, on the other hand, is a sort of arbitrary factor that does not fit in well with these sorts of stories. Still, I suppose that I should worry: after all, he did write Crows!
Doran’s Gouty Foot,
You forgot about how Martin’s own source material lost the magic it formally had.
Carne,
I’m guessing that’s a cut scene. Looks like on the way to meet with Jon, Tormund is confronted by Alliser who reminds him about their fight.
It could even be a wordless exchange as they stare each other down, which may have been why it was cut.
Aside from the Grey Worm-Missandei silliness, I really enjoyed this episode. This is quickly turning into my favourite season of Thrones, even eclipsing that excellent first season.
Roose clearly is the most evil character on this show.
It seems to be he’s just as big a sadist as Ramsay, just much more refined. If Ramsay is the kind of person that enjoys vodka shots, Roose enjoys a fine whisky. The way how he so casually, without even changing tone, explains how he murders and rapes, how he doesn’t give the slightest damn about Ramsays antics except when they somehow affect him shows how utterly without empathy he is.
Also that smirk at the Red Wedding when Catelyn discovers he is wearing mail.
*posted on another thread…..
Can we stop all the “Hodor” first post attempts and change it to “Fewer”? Classier. Classic. Can I get an “amen”?
Dame Pasty,
I’m with you on this one.. whether or not its “bad storytelling” and GRRM didn’t get his point across to anyone but you and me. I always took it from the book that is was by touch. Whether or not people in a medieval society think it might be from the water directly… yeah, going to add science to that. Leprosy, even magical Leprosy isn’t water-based. Why would they ever send infected people to live anywhere near water if it’s waterborn anyway…
JC got it by touching Tyrion who was touched by Stone Men but Tyrion was magically cured/protected by drowning. Hehehe…
Could you please cite where JonCon attributes his contracting greyscale to the water.
Arya havin’ a larf?,
Thanks for that quote. I’d been wishing I had time to look it up.
So how did you interpret Tyrion’s lines that it was caused by humors in the air of places like that? Or the lines warning against eating the fish or drinking the water in that regions? Why did you dismiss those as a cause? Why did you dismiss JC’s thought that he got it because of rescuing Tyrion?
At any rate, the book gave us two or three ways that it could happen (depending on how you count them): getting touched by a Stoneman, ingesting the water from the Sorrows, and breathing the fog from the Sorrows or places like that. #2 & #3 could be considered variants of the same thing, so count it as 2 or 3 total as you like. Regardless, Tyrion notes that fog is pretty much the Maester’s explanation:
The “dispute” insofar as there was one was whether it was a curse or humors, not whether it was in the fog: Haldon already had added to the admonishment to not touch the water or eat fish from it with “don’t breath the fog, either.” (And Haldon was pretty well educated, too, so this was not just superstition!)
My reasoning was very straightforward: of those three, we saw JC do one and only one (go in the water) that no-one else but Tyrion does. Everyone breathed the fog, but only JC got greyascale (that we know). Tyrion is the only one that we see make physical contact with a Stoneman: but I don’t know if we are told that he made direct contact. Of these three, JC blames one: and he blames the person (Tyrion) who caused him to do it. It’s fine that he’s wrong – that happens – but GRRM should have told us that another possible cause was very much a live candidate if it is going to be important.
Actually, the bacterium that causes leprosy comes in much higher concentrations in a lot of polluted types of water, including “primitive” types of pollution (human waste, basic fertilizers, etc.) Improved sanitation has done a lot to diminish leprosy rates in regions where the bacterium is common because of this.
As for why you send the infected people to live by the source of the infection (or “curse” or “humors” depending on to which theory you adhere), well, that would minimize the areas in which you can become infected/cursed/humored. The stonemen cannot foul the water anymore with bacteria/curses/foul humors that in it is and the water isn’t going to hurt them anymore than they are.
Talk about killing the magic. Good God.
This is approaching Midichlorians-level of analysis.
Wimsey,
If the author says it’s by touch, then I’m going with touch. Therefore Jon Con/Jorah had skin to skin contact and Tyrion didn’t. In fact, in the book wasn’t Jon Con not sure if he’d made contact or not? I thought everything happened so fast that he simply wasn’t sure and just surmised without any real proof that it was the water. If he felt that was the case, he should isolated both himself and Tyrion because they both went in. Furthermore, they shouldn’t have been using the water from the Rhoyne for anything–including bathing which the Septa did every day. Then again, Tyrion could come down with it later. We really won’t know until we’re all done with the series. For now, I’m going with what GURM said in the book and in interviews.
Matty C,
Agreed! It’s making we want to drink and I mean badly.
I think that’s good advice for all of us.
Wimsey,
You know we don’t play well with one another. You are clearly an expert in writing, Leprosy, containing infection diseases in medieval times, the education levels in Westeros, GRRM, and what I should think when I read something.
Why you have one interpretation, and I another is fun to DEBATE. but I never seem to debate with you, I just get to read how GRRM, and Robert Jordan are hack writers and I’m a hack reader. I will always get defensive when GRRM is criticized, because I like his writing, go fig. Maybe we should both try harder to ignore each other’s posts…
The stone dudes seem mighty dexterous for looking like The Thing, I must say.
The “previously ons” drive me nuts too, except it’s for the fact that it displays each week how easily they could have done one regarding Tysha. If they think the viewers are too dumb to remember Theon’s entire backstory, however, I’m not surprised they cut Tysha and so much else.
Also… they keep saying “the north remembers” and it keeps breaking my heart. There should be only one man saying it (not a bunch of smallfolk) and this makes it obvious that he – and the amazing storyline he embodies – have been cut.
Hi all fellow GoT’ers! Long time reader, first time poster 🙂
There’s not much to add that hasn’t already been said, but I thought I’d voice my hope that Sam
Sam is one of my faves, and even if he doesn’t go by way of Braavos, I’d love to see his story fleshed out! #fatpinkmast
One of my other favourites is Davos, and I’m a little confused by his story this season, but by no means disliking what I see. I simply see no trajectory/endpoint for him so far, but I have faith that D&D will get him where he needs to go, when he needs to be there.
My absolute favourite is Arya, but I didn’t miss her this episode because it was so jam-packed with great stuff! Some whiners have given Arya fans a bad name, but we’re not all in the same boat! 🙁
What I especially liked: 1) Stannis is a stickler for grammar! Be still my heart. Also, nice shout-out to book-readers with the dragonglass-mining on Dragonstone reference. 2) Aemon mentions “Targaeryens alone in the world is a terrible thing” just as Jon Snow walks in stage left. Subtle as a sledgehammer. Love it.
What I especially “missed”: 1) “Don’t make me regret the day I raped your mother”. Classic line. 2) Hizdar reasoning his way to Dany’s side. I’m not sure how I feel about Dany being empowered. Her storyline and character have been a little inconsistent since season 3, imo.
Cheers!
That is the one of the few things I am enjoying about Sansa in WF. She looks like she just don’t give a rats ass. Sure, she isn’t spinning tales being Littlefinger pt. 2 but she isn’t engaging like the good little girl doing her duty. Her repulsion is written all over her face. She is going through the motions, like she needed to in Kings Landing, but she also knows her value here. She is keen to peoples weakness and has found Ramsays. It’s not a huge character stretch but its nice to see Sansa have a bit more control, even if it means marrying Ramsay to stay in the north and keep her head.
And for a while I figured she would be the one to fill the Jeyne Poole role, I think it will play out differently.
mariamb,
Yeah I think it is a rich enough story on its own that having that added aspect is unnecessary. If it furthers Sansa’s story by making her fight back and not be a victim of her circumstances, I am ok with it, but I don’t have enough trust in this storyline to think that will be the case. I hope I am wrong.
Maceless Fan,
Me too! I thought the focus was Jon as a Targ, not Maester Aemon.
And can someone please explain why Little Finger gets around so fast and Gendry is still off rowing somewhere…
afartherroom,
Very well said. Actually, lovely to read.
I laughed so hard reading that. xD
Welcome.
I am also quite concerned about Davos. Admittedly, he had an odd arc in ADwD as he meandered about the eastern shore but that arc gave us some amazing insight into the Northern possibilities…some great monologues (Manderly!) and interesting recipes as well! 🙂 His show arc seems to be entirely piggybacking onto Stannis and Mel’s arcs…definitely not as interesting for him but still giving him some great supporting lines. Maybe he will get an independent task soon…who knows? In any case, I am quite concerned about the Stannis troupe (including Mel, Shireen, Davos, and Selyse). One or a few of them may be in danger of not making it through this season!!
Two things Benioff and Weiss are apparently not fans of- the source material and logic. This season is completely filled with plot holes, illogical character actions and cliches. Littlefinger has paraded Sansa around with no effort to conceal her identity even though she is wanted as a kingslaying fugitive. Now Littlefinger (he doesn’t know much about Ramsay even though he has been flaying Iron born and Northern lords left and right) drops Sansa in the lap of the Bolton’s and heads back to meet with Cersei who would most definitely hear of him handing Sansa over to the Boltons. Are viewers to assume that Cersei is oblivious or that she couldn’t and wouldn’t have Littlefinger and Sansa’s heads atop the walls of King’s Landing?
I wonder if Benioff and Weiss care anymore about the quality of the show or if they are simply concerned with viewership and the bottom dollar. If that is the case, who can blame them? It is a business. If, however, they are trying to produce quality drama, they are showing themselves to be utterly incompetent fools in the storytelling and drama department.
This season has been an exercise in cliches and inept story telling. It is in every way a huge disappointment not only to book readers, but to unsullied (as they are called) with any standards as well.
gewa76,
gewa76,
I Agree
Kind of like A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons.
Couple of things: I think Sansa’s story serves the plot and given that they have two more seasons to go and I’m sure they didn’t want to put the actress on ice or in the vale ( there’s virtually no story there in the books except to add more names and convolutions to an already boring plot). So Sansa I’m sure will end up doing something in WF, if not stabbing the boltons, then definately redeeming Theon, I hope. The grayscale arguments are getting crazy pedantic- he’s got it, Tyrion doesn’t as yet, and we’ll know soon enough how that will play out- who cares how it spreads v how GRRM says it does. The show is a different beast. I hope JC manages to give it to Dany, that would be ironic to say the least. Also neither her plot contrivances in the books nor in the show are convincing. I found both very irritating and burning people on a whim in the name of justice is no way to rule. Lastly, the set up with the recitation of the doom of Valyria followed by dragon sighting was super effective in giving me the chills! Very nice set up!
you snow nothin’,
Welcome to the Wall.
Like it seems a lot of people had, I’d given up hope of seeing Oldtown or the Citadel. After these last two episode, my hopes are renewed. Of course, if we get Oldtown and the Citadel, I certainly hope Sam will be part of that. I’ve always loved his character, and I think John Bradley keeps getting better and better!
Why is this a good thing? The difference between this and King’s Landing is that Sansa (in the show’s logic, at least) actively chose to come to Winterfell as part of a plan, which mainly just requires her to be rescued, but the one thing that Littlefinger said she should do was to win over Ramsay, which she isn’t doing at all. She should be acting like she’s here to be an ally, that being the whole point of her deception.
I hate to bring up this discussion all over again, but there are two types of grey illnesses. One is greyscale, which is scary, but not terribly contagious. This is known, or JonCon, with his greyscale, would never risk staying with Young Griff.
Then there is the grey plague. I’m making a wild guess that this is related to greyscale. Unlike greyscale, grey plague is contagious, and kills quickly.
What is the connection between greyscale and grey plague? Can greyscale mutate into the grey plague? Can greyscale in remission (Shireen) return as the grey plague? Val is terrified of Shireen, and acts as if she is potentially very contagious. Does Val know something?
It is interesting that there are two people now with this disease, one in the north, one in the south, and the only disaster poor Westeros has yet to experience is a plague.
you snow nothin’,
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Welcome to the Wall 🙂
Be Self-assured and Determined… sometimes it feels like no one’s reacting to your words but I quarantee you, most posters in here Will have read them. Throw out a viewpoint they didn’t consider and you Really get some attention 😉
I don’t know if others feel this way but I hate looking like I dominate or over-post in a discussion and there are many times I want to reply to others but hold back because of this.
About The Citidel… It certainly seems we’re going there… but I’m not sure how I feel about it for the show perspective. A great locale, interesting characters but in the books universe, yet another group racing to Meereen.
If it’s to show a group of people who are utterly opposed to ‘Magic’, then I think the Faith Militant could serve that purpose.
(Find it odd that TV Varys monologued he was hell bent on Destroying all things Magical, yet he’s supporting Daenerys?
Maria,
I got that too
Grey Scale = form of Leprosy, transmitted by touch. Kills slowly
Grey Plague = Black Plague, mass outbreak, kills quickly.
…and those who have been affected with Grey Scale are immune to the Grey Plague, correct me if I’m wrong please?
It IS interesting that the show has shown that a human baby can be touched by a White Walker and be instantly turned into one of them 😉
I do not dispute that GRRM “set the record straight” outside of the books. (Like the vast majority of his readers, I don’t read all of his interviews!) My points remain that: 1) you could not deduce this from what the book had, and, 2) the characters in the book were more concerned about the water after the incident.
The reason why I remember this section so well was the irony of the “learned” Tyrion & Haldon dismissing the superstition of “curses” with the superstition of “humors.” That was in itself hysterically funny to a biologist, and thus it stuck in my memory. So, it is (as always) possible that all of the characters’ explanations are wrong. Regardless, the book characters are worried about the water that Tyrion swallowed in his near drowning. Haldon even cautions that Tyrion might be turning to stone from the inside-out because of it. So, it seems that Haldon didn’t read GRRM’s interview, either!
JC never discusses it or thinks about it either in Tyrion’s half-chapter before he leaves the Griff Crew, or in his two chapters. The whole issue of whether or not JC was touched by a stoneman simply is never raised; it only is for Tyrion.
JC’s sole association of acquiring the disease was regretting not having let the dwarf drown. One could claim that it was unrelated, but JC does this while trying to treat himself for greyscale and contemplating why he should but cannot chop off his fingers.
No, they probably should not: but, then, they mention the boats that come up the river with new grey scale victims once or twice a year along with food for the internees. Obviously those people are not coming into physical contact with stonemen, so they must be getting it some other way.
However, given either “curse” or “humor” theory, it’s not surprising. The curse school would believe that a curse is localized. The “humours” school (the Maesters and presumably the learned of Essos) think that the humours are associated with particular conditions such as you find in the Sorrows. Real human societies made the similar mistakes, so it’s hardly unrealistic.
Again, I do have to ask this question: if nothing else, then my icon demands it! Why did people go to the less parsimonious answer of “touch” rather than “water”? Or are people trying to claim that the characters never state that you can get it from the water or the fog near the Sorrows? That definitely is incorrect.
Young Griff,
I definately agree with your assumptions about Littlefinger returning to King’s Landing and Cersei’s reaction… surely his head would be on a spike within a day. But let’s see how it plays out… as I think it’s him that sent the Viper in a Box, he’s still manipulating events.
I’m pretty certain they do care about the source material… and for the first 3 books they had a terrific story to follow and for the most part did. I take my hat off to them for bringing together Tywin and Arya and thank them for letting Brienne find the Stark girls. Her fight scene with the Hound was quite simply Brillant in it’s rawness, and for me, Terrifying, as I had invested empathy for both their characters and was truly worried at the outcome, Because it wasn’t in the books!!!
I want to feel that again. 🙂
Now they’ve come to material from 2 books that didn’t meet universal acclaim from most readers for the simple fact that they ‘Stagnated’. Still beautifully descriptive and fully realised, but lacking in momentum to propel the story forward.
I think it was a Bold move by the producers to place Sansa with the Boltons and while I was skeptical at first of how they could do that.. it’s now making more sense and Is my favourite plotline so far this season… And the hope that Tyrion does make it to Dany’s side.
Probably not. GRRM has stated a few times that he dislikes the “noble savage” paradigm. Moreover, it would be highly unrealistic. In the real world, people without written lore tended to have pretty erroneous ideas about the world. The only “traditional” lore that tends to be correct about medical conditions is which plants help. Indeed, people went on killing themselves due to poor sanitary conditions for centuries (possibly millenia) without ever getting a clue as to these very basic associations.
Moreover, from what Val says, her people really could not know. After all, if you go about killing people with gray scale immediately, then you are not going to have much data! My suspicion is that this was more to let us know just what a harsh and desperate culture the Wildlings have had to develop in order to survive: and how much this is going to clash with Westerosi ideals.
good episode. I guess Jorah will do some Barristan things before his greyscale gets him. I think D & D blew it leaving out the compelling blackfyre storyline, they should have started including references to that a few seasons ago. they lose that so we can watch characters like like missandei & myranda. sheesh
If you are a survivor of greyscale as a child then you are immune to Grey plague. In my view it’s kind of like a cowpox infection giving you immunity to smallpox ( in analogy only as they are not exactly like those diseases ).
Great episode! 9/10
A little slow (lots of talky set-up scenes), but the scenes were all so good! And personally, I REALLY appreciated having an episode set mostly in the North, with no King’s Landing. Long overdue, IMO.
The biggest meta dialogue – to me – was Reek’s first response to Sansa:
“You shouldn’t be here”.
Loved it!
Stephen Dillane is going to take award for Best Actor this year.
Good thing there are people like me with no standards whatsoever! Winning!
you snow nothin’,
Hodor’s Bastard,
I have concerns about Davos, too (as well as Stannis and Shireen). Something about all of them leaving Castle Black together has me worried.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Here Be Dragons,
I agree that John Bradley keeps getting better. He elevates Sam. I’m hoping that the mentions of Oldtown/Citadel indicate the he is headed there. After the “keep reading” discussion with Stannis, I’m convinced that Sam will discover a secret buried in the books.
If we get a story line in The Citadel, I imagine that it will be a simplified one. Honestly, if contraction is one of D&D’s goals, then sending Sam off into a separate journey seems unlikely. Sam may be a “secondary character” but I believe that he has a role as we move toward the end game.
Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but everyone is talking about winter stuff.
But what I’ve been wondering, is there any description of how winter is in places like Mereen or even further south? Does the sea between the continents freeze? Are there places not really affected by winter?
Here Be Dragons,
The dragons are symbolism for Dany’s inner self. This was the first moment in a long time that she was entirely in control of her situation and acting out of vengeance. The dragons reflect that.
And from a story perspective, yeah- I guess the dragons were hungry.