*This review will contain light spoilers.*
After nine months, Game of Thrones has returned as strong and bold as ever.
The show’s fifth season begins its stride forward by taking us into the past- into Cersei’s youth, showing us the future queen (played by Nell Williams, who has nailed Lena Headey’s expressions) and a friend visiting a fortuneteller in the woods. The flashback is a risky new trick in the show’s arsenal, but it works, fitting right in with the Game of Thrones mix of magic, intrigue, and foreboding.
That isn’t the only dip into history this season, as the show seems intent on bringing the past to the present this year, with more than one reference to long-dead characters who may still hold significance.
I’ll tell you this upfront: the season premiere as a whole isn’t as strong as last season’s first outing. “The Wars to Come” is all about setting up the season, and it does that very well. It’s more reminiscent of the second and third season premieres in that respect, but the pacing is on the slow side. It’s contemplative, giving the characters and the viewers breathing room to take in the new stories that bloom over the next few episodes.
What can you expect from season 5?
King’s Landing is recovering from the death of Tywin Lannister, but a religious movement is on the rise. The Sparrows preach piety and servitude, and Cersei tries to use their leader (Jonathan Pryce) to her advantage. It’s slightly awkward for her that her former lover Lancel (Eugene Simon) has joined the movement, what with him knowing her dirty secrets. Cersei has control of the throne now and she’s going to use it, confident she knows how to reign. Her relationship with Jaime is on shaky ground however, plus Myrcella’s in the hands of the Dornish, and Tommen is closer to Margaery than to her these days.
This season will be a major one for Lena Headey, with Cersei’s political maneuvering (and fumbling) at the center of the capital story. Headey is more than up to the task with her cold stares and sneers perfected. Pryce is on board to provide the foil with his infuriating calm and smiles.
In Meereen, Daenerys is learning that the effects of slavery don’t disappear when the shackles are broken. Chaos in the city is growing, pushing Dany to once again have to make hard choices that test her wisdom as a queen. Her growing pains extend to the mothering of her dragons, as well, with the creatures in their rebellious adolescence. The Meereen storyline is hopping this year, with a climax in the fourth episode “The Sons of the Harpy” that’ll leave you screaming at the TV and begging for next week’s episode.
Across the Narrow Sea in Pentos, the Tyrion and Varys Roadshow is off and running, giving two great actors a chance to spark off one another. David Benioff and D.B. Weiss’s trademark humor is on display here. Peter Dinklage’s Tyrion is a broken man, after having murdered his father and his lover in last season’s finale. The show tightens up Tyrion’s saggy A Dance with Dragons chapters over the first four episodes I viewed, and despite having lost some colorful characters, I think his storyline is better for it.
Returning in episode 2, Arya Stark has arrived in Braavos, and may be leaving herself behind as she approaches the home of the Faceless Men. Her education continues with the help of a couple tough mentors, Arya’s specialty. The places in Braavos, exteriors and interior sets, are breathtaking. The money used on real locations is well spent, with the Croatian vistas lending their flavor to the sea city. There is a scene this season when Arya has to leave something behind, and she looks about twelve years old and heartbroken, and you remember then what an incredible actress Maisie Williams is.
The Wall is home to new dynamics this year, with the influx of Team Dragonstone. The shakeup is welcome, treating us to dialogue between the likes of Shireen and Gilly, and Jon and Melisandre. The Night’s Watch storyline is a mixed bag, in my opinion; while there are some great scenes, what should be a major moment in the second episode feels rushed and not that exciting.
Meanwhile down in Dorne, the newest Great House on Game of Thrones is introduced. The Martells are reeling from their own loss- their beloved Prince Oberyn. His lover Ellaria calls for vengeance, but his older brother, the more sedate Prince Doran (Alexander Siddig) is having none of it. Oberyn’s bastard daughters, the Sand Snakes, share his hotheadedness and a cause with Ellaria. House Martell is led by the ideally cast Siddig who lends a quiet intensity to his scene with the furious Ellaria.
ASOIAF fans may experience a little whiplash with this new version of Ellaria Sand. Indira Varma is wonderful and I love seeing her on fire and spitting out dialogue, but this character has little to do with Ellaria or Arianne from the novels for that matter, so adjust your expectations. Show-only viewers won’t have an issue with this, of course.
Sansa and Littlefinger set out on another journey, with him revealing his newest plan for her taking power. Sansa’s destiny appears to be combining the best of her teachers, learning from Littlefinger’s crafty machinations while keeping the lessons of courtesy she learned young from her mother and her septa. Her gift has always been one of adaptation to survive, and now she is using that ability to grant her choices. I suspect that one she makes early this season may be unpopular with some viewers but in the circumstance she’s in, it makes sense to me.
The threads of Game of Thrones come together more neatly and pick up the pace after the season premiere. Momentum is gained as the players plot and the bodies start falling. In forging their own path beyond the books, Benioff and Weiss are finding ways to surprise their cynical audience and like seasons past, viewers are going to thank them for every shock and twist of the knife.
SUE!!!
Nice review. Without obviously getting into spoilers, what are your feelings about where it looks like Sansa’s story is going this season. Do you think that the reasons provided by characters seem logical within the show universe or does it feel like after-the-fact justification for an adaptation change?
I too was disappointed by that Wall scene from the second episode you mention… It felt monumental in the books, but on the series I was left feeling it was more like an afterthought. In addition to feeling rushed it lacked weight and initial impact.
Shireen/Gilly=hooray!
Like what you said about Sansa’s story making sense in context. That maakes me feel a little better.
King Tommen,
I am still finding it hard to believe that Littlefinger
Great review
Extremely excited
Darquemode,
Well, I for one thought they were gonna cut it (if we’re talking about a certain proposal), so the simple fact that’s in it is a good new.
If we’re talking about a certain election, that’s bummer ! That one deserves some momentum, but not too much, the night is dark and full of terrors and there’s a King to face. No time to contemplate on victory.
One of the older actors (I have forgotten his name) died unexpectedly. Could that have an influence on the scene in episode 2 in Castle Black?
Hmm.
Chilli,
JJ Murphy, the actor that plays Denys Mallsiter died during filming yes. Maybe it impacted the scene, but from what I recall he died after the scenes were shot.
Sue may know more…
Oh, and just trying my chance once again for those who’ve seen the screeners : any hints as to Ghost screentime so far ? 🙂
Arkash,
Ha! XD
True enough…
But can’t a brother get a Raven at least!?
Corn! Snow! Something….
Chilli,
No, he’s in the scene. And I think he was pretty much done filming for the most part when he passed away anyway.
Great review! That last paragraph really gets me excited.
Thanks for the review, Sue!
The shakeup is welcome, treating us to dialogue between the likes of Shireen and Gilly
Weirdly, this was one of the potential dialogue pairings at the Wall that I wondered about when thinking about this season, just because it seems like an inquisitive mind like Shireen would be fascinated to talk to a Wildling from the mysterious lands beyond the Wall.
How are the Sand Snakes? Are they indeed differentiated? Or are they hokey and one-dimensional?
I heard a certain characters fate is left undecided at the end of episode 4…..a character who doesn’t die in the books….
HelloThere,
Sue the Fury,
Sue, great review, nicely thought out and written. Quick question for you without any spoilers. Are they any mention of northern houses in the stannis/Jon storyline or even the Sansa/little finger storyline? Other than house stark and bolton.
Sue, with regards to Littlefinger/Sansa’s arc so far, do you think it makes sense from a show-only perspective? I’m a book reader first and initially it sounds so jarring. As much as you can set that aside, does it seem like a good choice? It’s probably too early to tell I guess, without knowing what happens later.
Laura,
Thanks Sue!
Really nice review. I’m very much looking forward to Meereen and Tyrion. It looks like D&D tighten both stories which is probably a good thing.
Thanks for the review!
Seems like this season is going to be very thematically cohesive and will start to reveal inklings of a move towards the conclusion of the story.
Was there any flashback scene other than the one with young Cersei ?
Laura,
About the “underwhelming” scene at the Wall in episode 2… it was obvious that the decission of not including that moment as the climax of season 4 was going to change the significance and importance of the scene. After all, it’s happening early in the season, setting things up, it’s not meant to be a huge climax. And honestly, I agree with that. I mean, it was such a predictable plot development that it could never be significant for show viewers.
Thank you Sue!!!!!
(Apologies for my earlier sarcasm).
Thank you Sue for this lovely review. 🙂
Only a week left to wait! I don’t know if I’m more excited or frightened of this season.
Sophie Turner’s
Hopefully LF hasn’t also dropped the ball in the grand scheme – he’s always been so delightfully conniving.
Great review.
Apparently that iconic line(Edd…)is not in the show.Really?Any Jon/Tormund(or any Tormund scene in general),Jon/Davos or Aemon/Mel scene?
Trepidation is the word that springs to mind for me.
I think we know what the dramatic ending of Ep 4 is going to be….
RIP !!!
Sue the Fury,
Sue,
Are you able to write a little paragraph about Theon, Ramsay and Roose? Or are they not heavily featured throught the first 4 eps?
Thanks for the review!
Thx for your thoughts, Sue. Anticipation is high, with heavy concerns as well. I’m intrigued by the “magic” aspect of this season that you are dangling in front of us.
Geralt of Rivia,
I wouldn’t call it an iconic line, and frankly, I like the show’s version just as much, if not more.
I feel a little embarrassed to ask the same thing, but I guess everybody is worried about the arc of one character or another, just like me, so here I go again.
Can you tell us how is Jaime this season? No specifics. Just how is he. We know that he is feeling guilty. Darquemode said that he looks confident and cocky, almost like his old.self.. Anything else?
I am just worried what they are doing with him. In the books by this point he is getting on his own path and he separates himself from a certain someone. In the.movies, after episode 4.10 and the description on the first 2 episodes, this does.not seem to be the case. And in case he does not separate himself from.., what is he going to do in the show next??
And thanks a lot for.the review..
Geralt of Rivia,
If this review is anything to go by there seems to be a lack of Winterfell/Boltons/Theon in the first four episodes, then? I can only hope they start to feature a lot more heavily in the episodes after that. That is easily – EASILY – my favourite storyline in ADWD.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
HelloThere,
I don’t mind some changes here and there.Actually it’s pretty good,but still there will be some angry book readers. 🙂 In my opinion it’s probably one of the best Jon moments (if not the best) and that nod.
I hear something on that matter and it’s not good.
I’m not going to give out specific spoilers.
As for Jaime- like I said in the review, Jaime and Cersei are on shaky ground with each other. He has stuff to do- if you’ve seen the trailers, you can guess where he’s headed.
I can’t really get into Roose, Theon and Ramsay discussion without talking about other characters, so…pass. They are in the first batch of episodes, though not heavily.
Great review! At this point, I’m most interested to see how the Meereen and Winterfell storylines play out.
I can’t wait for the season to start.
Al Swearengen,
Hodor’s Bastard,
I’m not sure what to expect. I’m hyped for Jon/Stannis/Mel scenes. I think KL will be interesting. I’m looking forward to see if Dinklage can make Tyrion’s journey more enjoyable than it was in the books. Arya is Arya, and I love the character, so I will probably enjoy her story. Dorne is an unknown. So long as they get Doran correct, and give him a great master plan, I will be okay. The elephant in the room revolves around Winterfell. I’m not encouraged by what I’ve heard.
All-in-all, I’m cautious going into the season. I don’t expect it to be the best, but I’m hopeful it’s better than season 2.
Sue: thanks for this thoughtful review. I am looking forward to Lena’s performance. Glad to hear that Sidding delivers in his role. Thanks for the advice about adjusting expectations on Ellaria; I am very intrigued by the changes to this character.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I hope you are right. That would make me happy.
Sue the Fury,
Nice review Sue!
Can you please tell what you thought of Ramin’s score in the 4 episodes? Anything that stood out, is it as good as past seasons?
Geralt of Rivia,
Thanks for the review. I’ve been less excited for this season, probably because I no longer have cable or Internet other than my phone and I’ll have to go to a coffee shop with WiFi to watch the show on my friend’s HBO Go account.
But this is reigniting my excitement a little.
Does anyone here watch the show on HBO Go? I know there’s been problems with it on the night it airs. Is it worth it to go on Sunday night and watch it somewhere or should I wait until Monday morning? I have no idea how late the coffee shops near me stay open so if it takes two hours for the episode to play, it could be an issue!
Not surprising. “Two Swords” is arguably the best season premiere, surpassing “Winter is Coming,” because of how assured it is, the great introduction of Oberyn Martell, the chilling cold open, and one of the show’s best ever combat scenes with Arya and the Hound. I’m trying not to let myself get spoiled by what’s above, given I already know too much already, but this still all bodes well.
I have to say its pretty nasty that some people aren’t critiquing D&D’s choice to take Tommen/Margaery in such a downright repulsive, disgusting, self-indulgent fratboy path and are just making hack jokes about how lucky DCC is, while these same people would be frothing at the mouth if the genders were reversed or if D&D had taken Sansa/Tyrion in the same way. hmmmmmmMMMM
HelloThere,
Why are people so critical of earlier season premieres? I found the opening episode of Season 2 fantastic, deliciously moody and atmospheric.
Nice review Sue, thanks.
I’ve been away for the weekend – has there been any detailed descriptions of the first 4 episodes posted anywhere, e.g. reddit or elsewhere that someone can point me in the direction of? I know I shouldn’t but I can’t help myself!
Thanks for the great review Sue! Extra excited for Siddig as Doran now! And for the streamlined plot for Tyrion. I have to say I am maybe most curious about Sansa/Petyr and yes, maybe time will tell when TWOW comes out how close this storyline ends up to what GRRM writes in the end…
Either way, a week to go and very excited! 🙂
aurane waters,
Well, geez, since the vast majority of the people haven’t seen the episodes, yet, they can’t critique the so-called “downright repulsive, disgusting, self-indulgent fratboy path.”
Just sayin’…
Sue – Thanks for the review. I’m definitely nervous to see how some things play out, but overall I’m really excited!
Sean C.,
But IMO some Stark needs to restore Winterfell, and I think it will be Sansa… but not likely through Ramsay in the books.
Excellent review of the first four episodes! Thank you, Sue!
Everything described here sounds wonderful. I can’t wait to see it all for myself! I’m particularly excited to hear about the strength of Cersei’s arc and Lena Headey’s performance, as well as the increased stakes in the Meereen storyline (that cliffhanger may break more than a few hearts among those who haven’t been paying attention, and many that have). The Northern storyline is probably the biggest wildcard at this point, but everything that I’ve heard about it sounds intriguing. If I had to choose, I would say that’s my most anticipated storyline. It’s a risk, to be sure, but given the unique set of challenges this series is facing, it’s a risk that they probably had to take. Not everyone will agree, but I think that it has the potential to pay off handsomely.
Honestly, there isn’t a single storyline that I’m not looking forward to this year. With the logical and efficient measures that Benioff and Weiss have enacted to speed up and spice up some of the novels’ more meandering plotlines, all of the characters appear to have a clear objective and a renewed sense of purpose that’s uncluttered by distractions – some for the first time in a while. That’s refreshing to me. The season may be a slow build in the beginning, but I have every confidence that it builds towards it climax, we’ll all be desperately searching for a spare moment to catch our collective breath.
I’m also very glad to hear that the long shadow cast by certain moments in history is starting to work its way into the show to a greater extent. I expect that the weight and frequency of such callbacks will only increase as the series moves towards its conclusion.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
making that hack comment about DCC is lucky is disgusting enough
That’s the reason I was shock to learn that scene was going to be so early in the season and I the very reason I was expecting it to be split into two episodes: one to build up a little and the other with Sam’s machinations and the outcome. Of course you’re probably referring to a totally different thing altogether.
aurane waters,
let me redirect you to somewhere else where this type of “fly off the hangle” reaction would be more appropriate: here
HelloThere,
i’m just saying it how i see it, especially because i expect most people to react the same way. maybe a few critics will rip D&D for it, but most won’t of course. they’ll just see margaery as a “strong smart womyn” for it
HelloThere,
Actually tumblr would just have a giggle about his rage over alleged reverse sexism, and then point out that literally everyone is hot for Natalie Dormer.
Along with mirroring
Sue, thank you for your review (and being so nice with our impatience).
🙂
aurane waters,
“Hack comment?” “Disgusting?”
All because some folks have said DCC is lucky?
Um…ooooook.
The most obvious contrast with Sansa/Tyrion is that Tommen is not a Tyrell family hostage who doesn’t want to sleep with Margaery and will not be beaten if he refuses to comply.
Sue the Fury,
pointing out that making light of an older woman sexually manipulating a minor is kind of gross is now just laughed off as the hack concept of “reverse sexism” really??? really?
D&D are so nasty for going this route, i hope natalie dormer blasts them after GOT is over just like she did with the tudors’ writers and producers
I really liked reading this review. It was as specific as it could be without spoiling the stories. I hate reviews that take forever just to give a general impression of the whole show, and you communicated clearly what you felt about each of the storylines, what the strengths and weaknesses are, and what to expect, thank you
aurane waters,
You do realize that Margaery is 16?
Sue the Fury,
Were there any named lords in Winterfell with any speaking roles? Or does Stannis or Jon mention any in particular? Any indication of
Hey, Sue,
first, thanks for your review!
Second, what about this much rumoured beautiful, “show-original” Stannis scene in ep. 4 (Beloved by Elio/Linda: https://mobile.twitter.com/westerosorg/status/584040767997480960 & https://mobile.twitter.com/westerosorg/status/584042178827001856 and polygon: http://www.polygon.com/2015/4/6/8352877/game-of-thrones-season-5-review)
– Did you like it, too?
Sean C.,
its true that tommen has more agency and power than sansa in that regard, but he’s still a child and definitely still younger than sansa on the show even though he has obviously been aged up on the show.
i’m not really angry at sue not really lol, just irritated to already see these kind of reactions because its just the start of many many more with this disgusting deviation that D&D have made
WeirwoodTreeHugger,
That sucks. Have you tried finding some fellow GoT fans in your area that might let you watch the show with them?
I had a similar problem last year and I can totally relate
aurane waters,
Wait, so it is “kind of gross,” or “downright repulsive and gross?”
If you’re going to go off the deep-end about it, you may want to try to be consistent.
Messy Justin Massey,
Oh gosh, Stannis and Shireen have an amazing scene in ep 4.
A practically perfect review! I feel very excited for Season 5 now. Being a show watcher only, as long as the show makes sense, I am good. I am happy indeed about the Shireen and Gilly talk, about Cersei hopefully flying too close to the sun and about to get burnt and the Season 4 ending being a cliffhanger. Does the last mean that there is a sliver of hope for two of the characters? I am most excited about Dorne and the Essos stories this season, Bravos and Meereen (and hope for some fire and blood there.)
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
the deviation and portrayal of it on the show is downright repulsive and gross
making light of it and making hack jokes about it is kind of gross
basically i’m mostly angry @ D&D but also annoyed @ people not calling them out on it, especially people who should know better imo
Darquemode,
Sounds like the “Sansa and Tyrells dinner party” scene in season 3. That was one of the best scenes GRRM has ever written, while on the show it came across as little more than a couple witty Olenna lines.
Pigeon,
In the books. In the show she’s at least in her early 20s.
Pigeon,
not on the show she isn’t. with natalie dormer being less than 10 years younger than lena headey who’s supposed to be 40 on the show.
tv margaery looks like she’s in her mid 20’s at the youngest
Has it even been confirmed that anything sexual happens with Margaery and Tommen?
I’ll be scouring the interest for complete spoilers if I can find any, that’s for sure. Knowing what will happen doesn’t ruin it in any way for me, possibly makes it better.
Cannot believe that here in Canada no one will take my money so I can watch the show on my smartphone….I just am not always around the tv and like to watch them wherever whenever.
I have a feeling Doran will not disappoint.
Mr Fixit,
I like all the season premieres. If anything, Season 3 may have been the weakest of the premieres, but I do like them all. There are few episodes I dislike. But “Two Swords” set the bar very high.
Sue the Fury,
Would you say Episode 4 is the strongest of the bunch?
Thanks for the confirmation of this! I’ve already heard a certain “rumour” about this scene, which sounds simply incredible-extreme-unbelievable beautiful and lovely!
aurane waters,
I’m aware of the age of the actors. My point is that the characters are not 17 and 33.
aurane waters,
I’m not going to call out D&D if they depict a legal adult giving consent and happily having sex with another adult. (Unless it’s just a boring or lame scene for other reasons.) Because that is not even close to Sansa the hostage being forced to marry Tyrion, and then if she’d been forced to have sex with him. Comparing the two is ridiculous.
Ser Blake,
Hmmmm, probably. It’s the climax of the first four episodes. Ep 3 has some high points too, but yeah I guess four is the best.
Sue the Fury,
Plus “everyone is hot for Natalie Dormer” and “an adult woman sexually manipulating a male minor is wrong” are not mutually exclusive. If Tommen is attracted to her, then if anything at his young age that makes him even less likely to be capable of mature, self-aware decisions in her presence. Even if he thinks he likes it at the time, it’s still icky, and there’s a great chance he’d regret it and feel violated when he has more time and capability for self-reflection later down the road.
aurane waters,
Who knows, maybe once the episode airs and people have seen the portrayal of it, you know, since some people actually wait to see an episode before they start flipping out, you’ll get your wish. Then again, maybe not.
Sue – outstanding stuff. I’m still new to all of this site and the buzz around it. I have become a fan of your work in very short time.
A Man Grown,
I’d say that’s a relatively fair comparison.
Although in this case they take multiple scenes in two chapters and condense it into a single slightly over 4-minute scene. Honestly, I think the scene accomplishes everything it needs to, but it was much more powerful and fun in the book.
Thanks, Sue! I will be revisiting this review daily until Sunday. Just a ball of excitement here! Can’t. Wait!
Unconfirmed spoilers have said so but I sure hope it doesn’t stop anyone from raging about it and calling D&D hacks, just like they’re hacks because every other deviation from the books.
Great review, Sue–Excellent job of giving your impressions and sketching out the general shape of each storyline without going too deep into spoiler territory.
Would you be willing to share which storyline(s) you’re most excited to see play out after watching the first four, or to say which actors/characters particularly stood out to you?
Also, would you be able to answer any of the following questions without getting into spoilery details?
-Overall, how strong do you think Arya’s storyline is shaping up to be?
-Does Theon get to do anything besides stand there/fade into the background?
-It’s early to tell, but does it seem like the story/character beats Jaime hit in AFFC and ADWD are set up/likely to still play out despite the change in context?
Thanks again!
Thanks for the great write up, Sue.
Do Lancel and Kevan have any moments to shine after the first episode? Do you feel like they’re being set up to play roles further along in the season?
Sue the Fury,
tommen is not a legal adult. tv tommen is supposed to be about 12/13, natalie dormer herself said it awhile ago, younger than sansa. DCC is 17 now, he was probably 16 when he filmed the sex scene, younger than sophie turner.
its completely vile, children don’t always have to be hostages to be sexually taken advantage of by adults. and tommen is pretty much a pawn and very much an inexperienced, sheltered child and being depicted that way. a child who in the past season didn’t even knew who sex worked and learned it from his grandfather the first time. tv margaery is a sexual predator but D&D are just portraying it as laughs and for something for the horny fuckboys to get turned on by and “feminists” to cheer about “womyn empowerment”
aurane waters,
Depiction equals endorsement fallacy. Look it up
aurane waters,
The show has portrayed violence against babies… does that mean that suddenly they are supporting infanticide?
TV Margaery is doing what she needs to do to secure her power as the next Queen. And no one is asking you to think its “ok”, but that doesn’t mean she won’t do it.
And yes, I do agree that if the gender roles were reversed, the audience would react to it differently, but thats a problem w/ society, not the show.
Has anyone more information about Jorah?
HelloThere,
in these two cases both the abusers are portrayed as wrong. and littlefinger is also one of the biggest villains of the show.
margaery isn’t being portrayed as wrong, she is being portrayed as a strong, smart, powerful, beautiful, sexual and good womyn and the one we’re supposed to root for in regards to having tommen’s preference instead of cersei. there is a lack of awareness in the narrative.
aurane waters,
Obviously I haven’t seen the episodes but I agree that the scenario under discussion is vile. TV Margaery may be just as manipulative as Cersei, though seemingly less interested in killing people. But as others just said, unless the tone of the scene clearly indicates Tommen is “getting lucky” and “should be thankful,” the fact that it happens doesn’t necessarily mean D&D are saying it’s a good thing.
What is the argument supposed to be here? That an aged up Tommen wouldn’t consummate his marriage with Margaery in the ASOIAF universe? Because, yeah, Tommen being 12/13 instead of 6 makes this an inevitability and the show not depicting this wouldn’t be true to the internal logic of the characters they’ve introduced into this fictional environment.
Or is the argument that this should have been portrayed as some kind of sinister and evil act with ominous music and a shell shocked and traumatized Tommen afterwards with lots of discussions between characters about how evil this is? Because again, this would not be consistent with the ASOIAF universe.
Or are we the audience supposed to be horrified that they would dare put the scene there (even just the implication since the act itself is never filmed)? Are we supposed to be enraged since people can’t separate the acts depicted on a fictional show that are acceptable within that historical context given what rules have been set up from things that are happening in our lives around us?
Westeros is not a progressive environment for women, kids or foreigners. You’re going to see some icky stuff as a result.
I don’t understand this all thing about Tommen and Margaery, What’s so gross about it?
Don’t you know european history? Young Kings and queens have been consumating their marriages for centuries, and lots of them when they were 12 years old in the case of the boys, for girls just a little bit late as soon as they had their first blood. So what’s the problem with this? This show depicts reallity more than any other show, and I hope they continue to do it, and more controversy the better, just like the rape scene in season 4, all theses things happened a lot back then so deal with it!
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Regarding the spoilered-out part of your last comment, I’m worried about the exact same thing 🙁
My favourite character and my favourite arc from ADWD, over-shadowed by a character who really should not be involved at all? It makes me sad. For both character’s sakes, in fact. Not just my favourite’s.
Anyway regarding my fave, I think I need to just accept, right now in this moment, that they’re not going to do them justice. At least that way I’ll save myself the inevitable disappointment later on.
Joffrey’s Cunt,
I never said it shouldn’t be on the show, but I would disagree with anyone who says the act isn’t morally wrong. That’s all I was getting at.
Tyrion does not consummate his marriage with Sansa; he did the morally right thing in spite of the norms of his society. If Margaery follows the norms, it’s understandable but that doesn’t make it right.
Great review Sue! I wish I knew more about the Sand Snakes but I’m assuming there’s not much of them to judge since they are introduced later.
I also can’t wait for those Stannis scenes and the wall storyline in general.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
James,
I’m not too worried about Theon’s role this season. When D&D were asked who their favorite characters were, two names came up: Tyrion and Theon. They love Theon, they have, if anything, showcased him more than they should have these last couple seasons. I’m not worried about him being overshadowed. He’ll do just about everything he does in the books, I think, and Alfie Allen will make it compelling to watch.
aurane waters,
Good lord, person.
Hodor Targaryen,
Oh wow, I didn’t know that! I’ll have to google that and find a source.
I knew they liked Alfie Allen and have a good relationship with him, but I didn’t realise they still loved the character.
I say “still” because I know they gave him some INCREDIBLE scenes in season 2. I was just worried they’d started going a different route due to – I think – a lot of viewers disliking him, and they wanted to give the more popular characters the screen-time for rating’s sake.
Very happy to hear otherwise, though 🙂
I know what will happen in first four episodes. The pace is quite fast and I like that.
I still think that this will be the strongest season so far.
James,
It is normal that the focus is on Sansa, Ramsey, LF and Roose in first two episodes we see WF next season.
When LF leaves Winterfell, Sansa’s and Theon’s relationship will begin to develop.
Don’t worry. Step by step.
As Cersei dances and spirals with Jaime, Marg, Lancel, and the High Sparrow, does she at least get her myrish swamp? We need to know!
and….“Sunspear” or “Dorne”?
Hodor’s Bastard,
#FPM
James,
I think they actually overindulged their love of Alfie (and the character) w/ too many torture scenes, and lessened the impact in a way.
I think people lost interest because it became “yet another” Theon torture scene. I think leaving some of it to the imagination makes it far more horrifying (as it was in the books)
But I think they love Theon
HelloThere,
I don’t think that audience lost interest in Theon. Not at all. Many are fascinated by its transformation.
aurane waters,
I believe DCC’s 17th birthday was in September and he filmed his Margaery scenes a month later when he was legal. But I agree that they probably won’t show anything more than after sex. And besides, the book had them marry. The characters never thought it was ‘gross’. Our society thinks it’s vile, yes, but in the fictional world of Westeros, young marriages happen all the time and it’s completely acceptable that Tommen not only wed Margaery but also happily and willingly consummate the marriage.
Showloves controversy. That royal sex scene is one of them. Nothing special for me.
But they succeeded in what they wanted . People talk about it .
“played by Nell Williams, who has nailed Lena Headey’s expressions” = YAY
This Sansa plotline sounds like another of those situations where you ask, “maybe having more than four people in the writers’ room to provide feedback would have been a better idea”.
Are you trolling? Who indoctrinated you to believe such bizarre things?
Its your kind that destroys the world for free people.
As pointed out there is nothing forced here and completely consensual.
Just because some government came up with some arbitrary age for consent doesnt mean it makes any sense. (which happens to differ from region to region to show just how silly the concept is) If people fall in love they will naturally have sex with each other. If you dont want that fine but stay the hell out of other people’s life. Its none of your business. Somehow your kind always thinks they have the right to intrude on other’s people’s business.
But i wouldnt worry since the showrunners have kept your thoughts into account not to mention absurd and conservative British laws. nothing ‘too awful’ will be seen. To the immense disappointments of Dean no doubt. Or not… since he is still a year away from your much cherised magic wand of course?!
If Aurane Waters has actually seen the episode, at least their conniption is grounded in what they’ve actually seen (have you seen the episode, Aurane Waters?). I haven’t seen the episode, so I don’t know how I will react to it. I do know, imo, D&D handled the scene between Margaery and Tommen pretty delicately, last season, so I have no reason to expect they suddenly did a 180 on their approach. I’m also guessing Margaery is not portrayed as chomping at the bit to bed Tommen. In fact, I feel like D&D have been much more delicate in handling certain things about sex between the older and the younger than Martin did. Yes, that would have a lot to do with the difference between reading something in a book and seeing it depicted onscreen.
HelloThere,
Yeah I do agree to an extent.
Perhaps the season 3 torture scenes would have worked better if the “middle scene”, where he loses his manhood, were left out entirely. Then it would just be the finger flaying scene, followed by a huge, terrifyingly quiet gap, and the next time you see him in episode 10 he’s on the verge of losing his mind/identity.
I don’t really care about all the other characters give them less screen time. Judging from the review the first episodes will have a bunch of Stark scenes so thank the gods. MORE STARKS please D&D.
James,
If I had been writing Theon’s season 3 story, I would have cut his scenes in “The Climb” and “The Bear and the Maiden Fair”. The faked escape is a meaningful story, and the reveal in “And Now His Watch Has Ended” is done very well. We don’t need to see him getting tortured more; considering how he was treated before, the audience is perfectly capable of inferring that. Then cut back to him in “Mhysa” and we see him completely broken (I would change the scene to show him already Reek, with more dramatic physical changes). If it’s important for the audience to know that Theon lost his wienie, the scene where it’s actually sent to Balon and Yara covers that.
People who react like that probably laughed when Cat screamed in S3E9.
Why we sholud give attention to stupid persons?
I’ve no problem with the show depicting Margaery grooming Tommen because it’s fictional and telling a story doesn’t mean condoning it.
The attitude of people claiming that DCC is lucky is a little off though as it alludes to a worrying acceptance of older women sleeping with minors as long as the women are attractive. If it was the other way round and Maisie Williams was shown in a sexual situation with an older guy then people would be losing their shit! Maybe I’m just riled up about reading comments from people making light of the recent cases of female teachers sleeping with male students. The number of people who appear to see nothing wrong with it because the women in question are attractive is worrying.
Interesting review without giving too much away.
If I’m to specualte then I’m thinking Episode 2 is when Jon either is involved in some electioneering success or lays the law..or block down.
The Episode 4 in Mereen thing is interesting. I imagine it may be where Selmy meets his demise or at least is taken hostage ( which kind of mirrors the books that one of Dany’s close advisors is a hostage).
Thinking Sansa/LF may dispose of the brat early too as the Vale seems to be being phased out but think it’s a longshot.
Haha yeah that’s very true. I edited out that part of my last comment shortly after writing it, because I realised it was silly of me to even acknowledge those people, as though they’re a huge problem or something!
http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2015/apr/06/marxist-theory-game-of-thrones-lannisters-bankers-sex-power-feudal-westeros-revolution
Now this is my cup of tea (although he wraps up the series too simplistic).
I’m still in denial. Seems so forced….but it makes me wonder about LF…while he loved Cat, he hated the Starks.
Sean C.,
Yeah I agree the fake escape and the betrayal were a highlight. The psychological torture is powerful without making you feel too sickened as a viewer. And I agree that scene where Balon receives the package is all we needed. Would give us more identity loss for Theon whilst simultaneously letting us see Balon’s lack of sympathy for Theon’s situation, which really made me despise him.
Not really into your hysteria about it, but I would have liked to see Margaery purposefully sexually manipulate him – and for the tone to march it. It raises a whole tonne of questions about Marge, and is a serious grey area. I think it’s a missed opportunity.
But in this current climate of mass hysteria surrounding media and its portrayal of sexual themes, I’m not surprised they don’t want to make it a thing. A shame.
Ms Headey looks gorgeous in that pic, more so than usual, must be the glow from you know what.
Cannot wait for the Stannis/Shireen scene as well as the Ramsay sandwich between Myranda and Sansa, you know how he likes threesomes.
aurane waters,
Age of consent in this society is obviously way younger that whatever age
TheTouchOfFrost,
I’m taking the DCC is “lucky” sort of comments with a grain of salt. I mean, I’m not a guy, but
I’d be OK with that too. It’s a medieval world.
Some minor points:
If Robert’s Rebellion was “17 years” before Season 1, Joffrey could at most be 16 in Season 1, due to Robert and Cersei marrying after the war ended (he’s not Robert’s son, but PLAUSIBLY could have been – Cersei didn’t have him only four months after she was married to Robert).
Joffrey has two younger siblings, Tommen is the youngest. Tommen could plausibly only be about 2 years younger than Joffrey, making him AT MOST 14 in Season 1 (assuming that Chapman had always played the part).
The way time is established to work in the TV series, one season = one year, thus Tommen is around 18 in Season 5.
Legal age of adulthood in Westeros is 16 in the novels….though Samwell kind of implied it was 18 in Season 1. Recall that Robb Stark also got married around the age of 18 in Season 2 (around the age of 16 in the third novel).
So while this is a retcon of how old Tommen is (he marries Margaery when he’s EIGHT in the novels), this isn’t “implausible” so much as a result of the live-action adaptation and aging up the actors, casting concerns, etc.
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Tommen_Baratheon#Tommen.27s_age
I must say, I’m really heartened by you guys being so ardent in your defence of creative expression in what would be sexual abuse of a minor had it happened in our times. It’s perfectly legitimate for it to be shown as the creators want it to be shown.
Where was that defence of the Cersei scene – specifically on those grounds?
Alex Stroup,
And the episode 2 scene is clearly the election.
The Dragon Demands,
Fixed the link:
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Tommen_Baratheon#Tommen.27s_age_in_the_TV_series
Hodor’s Bastard,
If this is true, it means that we will see some kind of rebellion by Stark loyalists within the walls of WF.
It is very possible that LF is preparing this “revolution”, manipulating lords from the North to rebel for Sansa.
That’s his plan in books also. To take the North.
TheTouchOfFrost,
But the age of consent in the UK is 16, so there is nothing unlawful about an older woman sleeping with a 16 year old male, as unsavoury as it may be to some. There is an exception in regards to teachers/students, which you allude to, but not relevant in this instance. American attitudes towards sex can be pretty conservative – of course most people would raise eyebrows at a scene depicting sex with a 12/13 year old boy, but the actor looks his age and the casual viewer will no idea he is supposed to be younger
Hodor’s Bastard,
I’m going to say something that’s probably going to blow your mind. Maybe, bear with me for a second, but maybe:
crazy eh?
Had it happened in our times. Exactly the point. Not only is this a fictional world, it is also influenced heavily by history. It was a non – issue in medieval times.
I’m not quite sure where the hysteria regarding this is coming from. I doubt it will encourage all the royalty in our current era to follow suit. 😉
Chriss,
The Cercei scene affected the CHARACTER arc of Jaime as compared to the books. It changed the CHARACTER of Jaime for me. That’s why it sucked. Drogo and Dany for example – same sort of change, but didn’t change really the CHARACTER arc… so it didn’t bother me on nearly the same level.
Lady Wolfsbane,
The age of consent is 14 here in Germany (though there are some restrictions to it that a sexual relationship between Tommen and Magaery would perhaps still be forbidden if he is younger than 16).
As you said, something like that is believeable in a Medieval society (and Martin did describe many more f*ck*d up sexual relation ships in the books).
Agreed. Although, I wish some of the people in this conversation were a bit more honest. It’s pretty clear they don’t have an issue with an older woman sexually manipulating or taking advantage of an adolescent boy.
Maybe that’s legitimate. I have no argument to make. I mean the age of consent in Spain is 13. But I just wish they wouldn’t try and rationalise their opinion by pretending they think Margary is 17 or that Tommen is 18 or whatever.
Thank you for this review! Reading this just makes me want to watch this season even more!
Just one question: so, in the opening… are we going to have Dorne?
I honestly don’t mind but I remember a lot of people was very mad about it… I can see them getting crazy about that while like no one cared for “The Wall” instead of “Castle Black”…
I see.
Well, you needn’t worry about that, because it woutfit have been considered rape in that day and age, so it’s fine.
Yivo,
Yes, that response was expected, although even Ramsay’s antics in the show should be known throughout the North, as he has a tendency to kill women and send preserved dicks across the land via UPS. But bear with me….is LF truly ignorant of the Bolton insanity? That is what I would like to know. It intrigues me either way.
reaper,
The age of consent in the US varies from state to state. In the majority of states, however, the age of consent is 16.
The breakdown is as follows:
34 states – 16
6 states – 17
10 states plus DC – 18.
Hey Sue, great review. One question (without going into details of course): Do Sam and Melisandre/Sam and Davos share a scene?
What is the argument supposed to be here? That an aged up Tommen wouldn’t consummate his marriage with Margaery in the ASOIAF universe? Because, yeah, Tommen being 12/13 instead of 6 makes this an inevitability and the show not depicting this wouldn’t be true to the internal logic of the characters they’ve introduced into this fictional environment.
Exactly, people really need to think about this as “in ASOIAF universe” not as in 2015 on Earth. Margaery in the books would be expected to consumate her marriage with Tommen approx. when he turns 12 and she would be 20 (that is book ages, on the show it’s probably 13 & 25). You can find that icky as hell but in universe nobody would do much more than shrug. Just as everybody expected Tyrion to get it on with his 12/13 year old bride in universe. And who’ll be forever praised by fandom for chickening out of that in the end.
I’d be rather more worried if Margaery didn’t try to take advantage of everyone she can, after all the councelling from Olenna. Or if Littlefinger didn’t try to take advantage of Sansa and started acting out based on modern sensibilities.
And I still don’t understand why all the commotion about a scene almost no-one here has seen.
Hodor’s Bastard,
-Roose Bolton questions Littlefinger’s motives in moving against the Lannisters considering the Lannisters made him one of the most powerful lords in Westeros. Basically questioning why he should trust LF. He also questions how ‘independent’ LF is considering Cersei summoned him back to KL
-LF tells Roose that since Sansa and Tyrion never consummated their marriage, they were technically never married and she still has her maidenhead. He says “I assure you she’s still a virgin. Tyrion never consummated the marriage, by the law of the land she is no man’s wife. Inspect her if you must.” Roose “I leave that to the brothel keeper. It’s her name I need…not her virtue.
Hear, hear.
I think AW’s problem is the tone. I think he was saying it’s surprising that they seem to have taken an approach to this that doesn’t make Tommen seem like a victim of Margary, but as someone lucky to have gotten a chance with her.
I think AW would have preferred that, if instead of treating it in a – I believe he said – ‘frat boy’ esque fashion, they treated it with a degree of solemnity.
Perhaps he would have preferred they focused more on the fact that a young teenager is being sexually manipulated by an adult into losing all of his power, that he is effectively being sexually abused by her in order for her to take what is his.
My stance is – I think the story would be more interesting if they took that approach, by I defend their right to express any story in any fashion they wish WITHOUT being morally judged. Art should be free.
Lady Wolfsbane,
I’m sure it wasn’t a big deal as like you say I’m sure they’re both professionals and he is actually 17. Just I think if someone said it about a female 17 year old actress with an older male actor it would be seen as weird. For example Sansa was lucky to be in a sexually charged scene with Peter Dinklage (who as a straight guy I think is an attractive fellow!).
The Dragon Demands,
Don’t forget to factor in the baby which Cersei lost (Gendry?! :P) too. That knocks off another year or so.
reaper,
I’m British too so know our age of consent 🙂 Although not illegal, I think a 30 odd year old man or woman sleeping with someone still in school should be frowned upon whatever the gender but it seems to be more forgiveable if that older man or woman happens to be attractive. I think Tommen is meant to be under that age in the show so applying modern society (or at least our) standards means it’s morally wrong.
Because it’s a fictional show I have no issue with it though as it’s not meant to be set to modern day standards. People get tortured, raped, eaten and young boys get groomed. It’s a brutal medieval world! It’s just that ‘she’s hot so we’ll condone her shagging minors’ attitude that has been displayed in recent cases of it happening that irks me!
mau,
More Roose bad-assery is exactly what I need. Thank you.
Chriss,
But AW hasn’t seen the scene in question and is just using it as a thing to bash D&D with like he/she has done with so many other things. That’s why I find all the talk about “frat boys” and “hacks” just plain silly. Not that I disagree with anything what you’ve said but after how the scene between Margaery and Tommen played out in last season I doubt it’s going to be “frat boy like” at all.
Chriss,
Yeah, and P.S. there’s violence in GoT too. And bad things happen to good people. like slavery and torture. I’m not OKAY with ANY of it – if I saw there’s sorts of things happen in real life – I’d try to stop them. But the scene people are getting hysterical about in THIS thread sounds like one of the healthiest ones in the series so far…. one that I’d actually be cheering for in the books? I don’t get it.
mau,
Thanks, but Uggh…that is a bummer. I guess we can’t unsee those spoilers. Out of the fickle frying pan of KL and into the flaying fire of WF. Hooray…..(not).
Chriss,
I’m still wondering whether Aurane Waters has even seen the scene. My guess is they have not, so they’re just melting down over something they think may be depicted in a way with which they don’t agree, which imo is about as absurd as it gets.
If they have already seen the episode, then at least they are offering an informed opinion, and while once I’ve seen the scene, I may or may not agree, there’s a difference between getting upset about something someone has seen, and flipping out over something based solely on how they think it will happen.
Nice review!! As much as I like hearing professional critics thoughts, I always prefer WotW’s ones, because you are both balanced and fair (and have thay specialised knowledge). I’m glad that they’re starting a little slower this season because so many characters are in different locations, so we need a little time to adust, so no complaints at all there for me.
In terms of the
, I’m not surprised. I think it is a little too obvious that it is going to happen anyway, so there isn’t much point taking time over it. It’s a nice part of book 5, but I understand why they have done it.
As for Winterfell, we’ll see, but I’m no where near as pessimistic as some. Like before, it’s time constraints, but they could pull it off. We’ll see…
Don’t forget GRRM wrote one of those episodes himself!
I am also very curious to see how Theon will be treated this season, both in tone and in plot specifics. I have been extremely impressed with Alfie Allen so far and I doubt he will disappoint!
barry,
Wow! You actually made this debate less coherent. Protip, “your type” is not how normal people refer to each other.
Jaime’s girl,
D&D wrote the torture scene in that GRRM episode.
TheTouchOfFrost,
Hmmm… true. But still men are cruder and silly than me and the fairer sex… someday I suppose we’ll catch up. 🙂 I think popular opinion would be that any woman would be “lucky” to be in a scene with Jon, because Kit is a sex symbol these days.
Eh? Aren’t the “fratboy” & “high five” comments for Dean/Tommen comming solely from the media and early reviewers? I guess D&D should have seen that coming (and maybe are into some show controversy) but otherwise I don’t quite see why they get flak for that.
It all boils down to that D&D didn’t want to deal with an eight year old child-actor (then the creepy consumation would be way off in the future like in the books) and that they had an actress around 30 cast for Margaery.
Lollius Palicanus,
This would predict someone like Littlefinger winning in the end, the Capitalist to end the Feudal decline 😉 I have always thought he was based on Henry Tudor (7th)- physically weak but intelligent and cunning; a fastidious financial record keeper and tax collector.
zambi76,
No, no, no…D&D are merely frat-boys who are laughing in a Beavis and Butthead-esque manner about the attractive older woman and the younger male, championing the idea of it being ok for older women to seduce younger men, while painting a younger woman and older man as abhorrent, thus perpetuating the double-standard which already exists, and blah, blah, blah…
Oh yeah, and a bunch of women are going to be cheering about how empowering the scene is for women, or something.
😉
Need a Shireen spinoff where she goes up and down Westeros telling people what’s what. It could be a quest for her and Davos to discover why knight begins with a k. I bet the Daynes know.
This. Definitely better than Robert’s Rebellion (which would never work anyway) or Dunk & Egg.
I hate to agree with HelloThere‘s comment below (the sentiment, not HelloThere themselves), but I do. 🙁
The comment section in this post is a good example of why the internet sometimes sucks.
Btw, I can’t be bothered typing out how I’d like to see season 5 play out, for anyone who was eagerly awaiting. Haha, apologies.
I don’t know how brought up the sept scene again but let’s leave that out of your Marg/Tommen debate please. Enough has been said. Many people disliked it for many different reasons.
I tend to agree with Lady Wolfsbane that it diverted Jaime’s character arc, D&D as much as admitted that was intentional in their big interview with Oxford alongside Kit and John Bradley. A lot was changed by bringing Jaime back to KL early in the show- then the sept scene was not the first time he was seeing Cersei and he had not been present for Joffrey’s murder. I think D&D nailed the tone in Jaime’s appearance at Cersei’s door when he first returns- if that tone had been applied in the sept scene it might have felt very different. Interesting to hear Nikolaj state he expected pushback for the sex in front of the son’s corpse aspect but was surprised by the rest- guess it tells you what the actors had in mind at least, even if that didn’t come across with editing. I’m disappointed with how that scene came across and I think making simple generalizations like “game of thrones promotes rape” is taking things out of context and oversimplifying things. But that’s my opinion. I apply this same rationale to Tommen/Margaery. One should consider the context/ world of ASOIAF, and perhaps reserve judgement until the episode has aired.
Great review Sue. I’m going to be one of those people though and point out that after a paragraph about Meereen, Pentos is not across the Narrow Sea, it’s across the Dothraki Sea.
I’m excited about the season and most of the changes that appear to be happening, all except Sansa’s storyline. I can’t see it working, I just can’t. Hopefully I’ll be pleasantly surprised but I doubt it.
Well, having just read some details on the Tommen/Marg spoilers there is a pretty lame joke in one scene after the consumation (the secene were Marg is with her cousins in the garden) Of course one of the cousins would make fun of Marg and Tommen, but I guess she could’ve come up with something better than
So that goes in the D&D fail column for me indeed.
Lady Wolfsbane,
If most of the girls I know are anything to go by, you’re not far off equality in crudeness and sillyness!
Jaime’s girl,
You know, all of these arguments would be basically nonexistent if people simply understood that cultivation theory had been discredited time and time and time and time and time and time again. And that whether it was a rape or it wasn’t a rape, whether it was child abuse or it wasn’t, it *doesn’t matter* in any way when it comes to having any impact on the real world. Art does not make you rape or abuse children.
If people could remember this very basic fact, these outrages would be very infrequent.
That’s the important point^. That’s the only justifiable place for ‘moral outrage’. And since art doesn’t make people commit crime, we could put that to bed, and the fury could be focused on the important stuff: like how D&D are ruining the books, or how GRRM should have D&D write the remainder of them or whatever.
While I found my resolve faltering, I’m glad I stuck with my choice not to reread books 4 and 5 before this season aired. I’m not one to freak out about changes, although there have been some of which I haven’t been particularly fond, but I did want to eliminate the feeling of watching the show and saying, “well, in the books it happened this way.” I want to be as immersed in the show-world as possible, and just try to enjoy it for what it is, which I think, by and large, I will.
The people crying about Tommen consummating his marriage… sigh. I really have not much to say other than you are a sad, bored bunch of people. In a show which has displayed baby killing, head crushing, beheadings, animal and body mutilation… you cry about a 12-13 year old probably happily consenting to sex with his wife, who is probably only supposed to be 4 or 5 years older in show canon? There is no ‘age of consent’ in the middle ages kids, and the concept of adolescence doesn’t particularly exist either.. They have emphasized that there’s only children and adults in this world. So your accusations of calling D and D ‘hacks’ and whatever else is unfounded seeing as you are comparing real life sexual norms and laws to a period of history hundreds of years before, where the same rules don’t apply. Not to mention that it’s becoming more and more necessary as a political strategy in the show, with Robb and Renly both dying before producing an heir. I can only imagine the shitstorm if Tommen was the older partner and Margaery the younger.
Indeed. Cause it occured to me, after having hit post on my last comment, that any joke I would have come up with instead would have been even 300% more tasteless.
/hangs head in shame
TheTouchOfFrost,
Well, I can’t speak for Lady Wolfsbane, but I know, especially in my younger days, I was extraordinarily silly and crude, to a point it would probably make some men blush, and my friends were the same. I’ll never forget the time a friend wanted details about a guy I’d been…dating…we happened to be at a pizza place which served huge breadsticks, and I equated the guy with the breadstick. Ahem.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I did the same, I hope we’re both right 🙂
Jaime’s girl,
About the breadstick, or not rereading books 4 and 5 before the new season? 😉
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Were you at the Olive Garden? What I am trying to ask is … was it an endless breadstick?
Cumsprite,
To this day, it is the most epic breadstick I have ever seen.
(btw – I’m too depressed to chat, so I’m just here being bad and laughing at someone for flipping out over something they likely haven’t even seen.)
How soon we forget.
http://i.imgur.com/SKfooJy.jpg
Hodor’s Bastard,
i didn’t know about LF’s ignorance of
behavior. I think it would have made
seem more powerful if she knew what she was getting into and still shouldered on.
I am in favor of the change in terms of plot progression.
I would have just pushed the envelope all the way if I were going in this direction. The show needs to make
an active agent in her new situation and not a victim
Just went to the Season 5 thread on westeros.org. My god, that place is a cesspit of vitriol, bitterness, and anger. Those people must be tired of living.
People there are annoyed because the show is far, far more popular than the books, and they can no longer act superior for having the brain cells required to read the books/can no longer spoil the show as much for others. At least (for the most part), people here explain why a decision in the show is bad, but there…no. Someone’s even created a poll for whose storylines will be fucked up the most. Come on, why don’t you be more optimistic. It really is an unpleasant place; just stop watching if you hate the show so much.
Horrible place, horrible owners, and (mostly) horrible users.
Sue, are you referring to their usage of sexposition here? 😀
Sue the Fury,
Hi Sue just one question. What is your opinion of the sand snakes so far? Some reviews had less than pleasant things to say about them…
This story change with Sansa (if it’s what I think)
Great review, Sue! Really encouraging stuff.
Turncloak,
It seems reviewers have only seen them for a few minutes, unfortunately. The Sand Snakes are only introduced in episode four. Some have described them as shallow and feeling too similar to each other, but… come on, this is their first scene. What did anyone think of, say, Jaime, the first time they saw him? From interviews and audition tapes, we know each of the Sand Snakes will have their own personality and explicit backstory. I wouldn’t worry too much. I wouldn’t expect them to have an enormous role either, though.
Sue the Fury,
Nice review, much better then the one from EW.
I have a question about Sand Snakes accents. Are they all using a “spanish accent” like Pedro and Indira? If yes how good they were?
aurane waters,
He’s not a minor by Westerosi standards.
Luka Nieto,
wow I didn’t realize they were just an 1 episode so far. I think those reviewers might be being a bit unfair. Yet they also said that the High Sparrows didn’t fit into the show which is the opposite impression I’m getting from Sue.
Turncloak,
We barely see the Sand Snakes in the first four episodes, to be honest. It’s just one scene if I’m remembering right. I don’t think they establish very distinct personalities right off the bat, that’s true- more so Obara while the others are less the focus of the scene. So I think it’s jumping the gun to expect a lot of separate personalities from people who were barely speaking in one scene.
edit: we all posted at the same time, I guess. Critics thinking the Sand Snakes all look the same need to get their eyes checked. How much more different could those three women look?
Sue the Fury,
What about their accents? Obara’s, anyway, since apparently the others haven’t spoken much if at all yet. And did the Dornish scenes (and specifically the Sand Snake scene) come off as cheesy? One critic seemed to think so. You yourself hinted that they were “very dramatic”, though I’m not sure if that was meant as a criticism.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Don’t think gender is much of a deciding factor generally but I think on average men still just edge it in immaturity terms mainly because they tend to be more confident/don’t care as much about indulging in that type of humour! Some of the abstract ways of describing certain experiences some of the guys I know have come up with really must be applauded for their creativity!
Luka Nieto,
which reviewers have been saying that? I’ve only read three reviews so far, and only one criticised the Sand Snakes. Are there reviews I’ve missed?
Yivo,
It might’ve been the single reviewer you mention, actually. And maybe one of those who watched the screeners and shared their opinions (as well as some spoilers.) I didn’t mean it was the general opinion. In fact I’m personally hopeful and excited about them.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Jaime’s girl,
Well then, go forth and discuss breadsticks everyone! 🙂
I don’t miss any memorable breadsticks. I can think of one pretzel though… 😉
Oh the note about the Dornish being “super dramatic” was because of the message from the Dornish- you’ve all seen it in the trailers, the viper with the necklace in its mouth. My god, what drama queens. And yes, the Dornish take everything to extreme.
As for the accents, I think everyone does well enough mimicking Pedro’s accent. It’s tough- his own accent was a twist on his father’s Chilean one, so it’s unique. Whether it’s cheesy, I guess that’s subjective but their accents are no worse than Pedro’s was, so far.
Jeb,
Every website’s users seem to be certain that the users of other websites are horrible (even though many people use multiple ones).
Which critic said that? Elio and Linda think every deviation from the books is cheesy. It’s too bad that we have to consider a critic’s agenda, but that’s how it works with this show.
aurane waters,
Don’t worry, DCC probably likes milfs more than his cat. And Tommen, well, with his marriage he practically got two mothers, a wife ‘n a queen. Can u imagine, 4 women all together? All of them more intelligent ‘n sexy than he is. Oh, ‘n don’t forget. This is Game of Thrones, i. e. the marriage is just a part of a political ‘game’. In political games adults fuck adults, adults fuck kids, ‘n kids fuck kids, if necessary. It’s kinda their (feudal) duty.
Flora Linden,
LF despises commoners, he abhors lords. That’s why he delights in chaos of wars, political intrigues, etc. He hopes he will profit from the chaos. Sansa is probably just his tool to achieve some of his selfish ‘n subversive goals. His good character trait is that he don’t pretend that he’s a noble, chivalrous, fair ‘n kind man. (I think Sansa understands that, ‘n that’s why she’s afraid of him.) He’s just a business man, forerunner of the new social system. That’s way his selfishness is subversive.
I’m wondering who Darqemode is that they have screeners. Do you publish reviews under a different name?
I’m fine with creepy relationships played as such. The Americans has been quite good at that. Homeland did something similar recently which was annoying only in one character’s response to it. I disagree though that Tommen could be 18 due to 4 years passing: the books may take place over one year each, but seasons 3 & 4 take place during the same book. The amount of time which appears to take place between episodes isn’t enough to make a year. I suppose I’m a bit disappointed the show is going in that direction because I liked how Margaery averted that in season 4 (supposedly Dormer herself had some input on that). I’ll also confess to not knowing exactly when medievals were supposed to consummate marriage.
Feudalism wasn’t brought down by debt. It lasted a long time, and while some dynasties may have been brought down by debt, they just would have been replaced by others while the system continued to perpetuate itself. Technological changes undermined feudalism, altering the military logic based on knights & castles. It was also technology which shifted the economy from agrarianism (which also characterized Europe before feudalism) to capitalism.
I can’t think of breadstick metaphors without flashing back to the second episode of Better Call Saul.
Biscotti Knight,
I read it from an unsullied critic. I believe it was The Guardian review
Uknow0,
Yeah, I don’t know why people are complaining. Tommen has always liked pussies.
Turncloak,
Don’t think so. Guardian only did a review of the premiere. There’s only been four reviews as far as I know. Ny Daily Times, Sue’s, EW, Paragon.
Agreed, anyone not hot for Natalie Dormer should be getting called out as vile and repulsive
Definitely going to miss our friends in Dany’s circle.
I will never understand the ‘books vs show’ nutters. I read the books, I liked them. I watch the show, I like it. It’s fun to compare the two, to wonder ‘what if they had kept/changed this plot/character/part/actor….’ and to talk with people about it (I find this group especially good at discussing things from different viewpoints with at least some civility!) .
But I am not a ‘purist’ or whatever dumb term the cool kids use is – there are book bits I would have loved to see, and show bits that trumped the books. Different mediums, different animals.
I love that I will have no effing clue from now on what will happen! 🙂 So why people can’t manage to deal with it is beyond me…..and there are just as many non – readers that are holier than thou as there are readers, for that.
Hells, I would still have loved to see Tom Bombadil in LOTR, but it doesn’t take anything away from the movies.
Sue the Fury,
I didn’t forget. I fully appreciate the reference. I was attempting to use pedantry as a form of humour. As is often the case it seems I have again missed the mark.
PS hope you are feeling better since the other day.
Yivo,
You’re right, it was actually EW’s review that criticizes the sand snakes and calls them “B-movie bad girls”
Great review, Sue!
How would you rank these episodes?
Uknow0,
You’re right about Littlefinger’s feelings on the
At least with Winterfell, I can options for him to exploit. It’s risky, but not as much hoping on Sansa to do the right thing.
As far as Lannisters are concerned. They’re a “spent force”, as Lady Dustin puts it.
jentario,
Yeah when I first saw they weren’t at Daznak’s I was hoping maybe Dany sent them to guard her dragons or something but after hearing about the fight in Ep. 4 I don’t think that’s happening :/ it’s a shame if they kill him off
If the Sansa to WF speculation materializes, I will have to take back what I said after last season (D&D can’t possibly write anything worse).Any ironborn sightings at all in the first 4 episodes?
Charles M,
Both plans involve her birthright as a rallying tool. It just actually makes sense in the books.
Josh,
Yes!! Sue has already confirmed above that there will be an appearance in the first batch of episodes by
No word yet on the others.
If the rumors about Sansa are true, I actually look forward to her plot line very much…that whole dynamic should be interesting to see…Id much rather see that than
D&D are already aware of
future so it’s not far fetched to say this isn’t something that GRRM already had planned.
Interesting that you brought up Better Call Saul. Although I enjoyed its first season (primarily for aesthetic/easter egg reasons), it was definitely a slow rollout. Damn good character development but its pace made ADwD seem like a roller coaster.
—–
OT: Frickin’ Duke. Their win tonight is like Ramsay marrying Sansa….ugh.
That’s putting it far too mildly.
Young Griff,
Sansa in Winterfell isn’t speculation, it has been confirmed. The only reason many book readers hate it is because GRRM didn’t write it and it is a big change from the books. It actually has the potential to improve on the book story, whether or not it succeeds in doing so is another story. Sansa’s storyline in AFFC would make for horrible TV and incorporating her into the Reek/Ramsay plot ups the drama level by using a familiar Stark instead of pulling some random Jeyne character out of nowhere.
Wait a second. So did they actually consummate their marriage. Were does that leave Margaery’s plot for the rest of the season when she was supposed to be a virgin?
Going by this site, you’d think Sansa were the only character on the show…Can we have some variety or something? Every comment section. Every single one.
“Trepidatious is the word of the day, Mary Hart!”
-Randy “Macho Man” Savage
Can someone point me to the Stannis / Shireee scene rumor?
I would say that’s pretty far-fetched, in fact.
Nvm, found them
I am still salty (season 5 spoiler)
asdf,
The way Sue described it, I doubt he went down easy. They both probably hold on for a while.
Sue the Fury,
I guess he/she meant that Pentos it’s across the Dothraki Sea from a meereenese’s POV (as in, if one would travel from Meereen to Pentos, on land, one would have to travel across the Dothraki Sea (not the Narow Sea) in order to reach it. Of the Night was only tryin’ to be smart (in a good way, I think) :).
Sean C.,
Somebody gets me. :0)
Nowhere as on the show the faith arrests Loras for being gay instead of Marg for not being a virgin. I bet she still will later also get arrested for adultery (and incest?). Olyvar will make up some hot Tyrell threesome or so in front of the High Sparrow.
edit: I hope they give him an amazing fighting death at least!
Charles M,
U can’t rationalize D&D’s decisions… They are “hack” writers, remember….
HelloThere,
Hey, that is an insult to hack writers everywhere.
Pigeon,
This is possibly the most rational post I’ve ever seen on these forums! Kudos to you, sir!
Josh,
A fellow holdout! Stay strong brother and keep the faith (Drowned God of course! )
Charles M,
I think his book plan is a lot smarter. He’s slowly taking over the Vale which is a perfect defensive position whilst he waits for things to settle in the north before using Sansa as a tool to gain influence there. Throwing her into a volatile situation where it’s still up in the air who will be in charge isn’t the wisest of moves. At this point her going there for whatever reason seems ridiculous but shall wait until I see how they explain it before passing final judgement.
JamesL,
I think a lot of people are worried because the Northern storyline was one of the strongest in the last two books and they seem to be throwing Sansa at it (seemingly because she hasn’t got anything else significant to do) which changes the dynamic completely. At this point, I am equally curious and worried about how this is going to play out.
asdf,
Longshot, but I’m still hoping that GW is killed and Selmy taken hostage (he’d be the more valuable hostage I’d imagine). Going down to a bunch of untrained masked no-marks is not a fitting end for Barristan the Bold.
Young Griff,
If D&D are what hack writers look like than I hope more shows and movies hire more hacks like them lol
If these so called hacks can go on to make a great critically acclaimed tv show than what the hell is everybody else’s excuse
Anyway… here’s some speculation based on spoilers and my own hype and madness, though I do hope I’m right:
So, I bet that’s how they’ll crack it —so that Jorah and Tyrion can meet the Stone Men without going back to the Rhoyne, the Stone Men have been relocated to the Valyrian Peninsula in the show, which is honestly a much more exciting prospect. We’ll probably see the ruins of Old Valyria in the show! The closest Tyrion got in the books was seeing it from afar while sailing around the peninsula, just before being attacked by pirates and sold into slavery. In the show, Tyrion and Jorah will probably go through Valyria, through the Smoking Sea, since it’s a pretty big shortcut, though dangerous.
Honestly I wasn’t that excited about the Stone Men, but Stone Men from the mysterious Doomed Valyria? Well, that’s another matter entirely. I’m pretty sure that’s where Tyrion glimpses Drogon, as we see in the trailer; in the very last frame you can see the tip of a very large ruined building. So, Tyrion will not only meet the Stone Men in Valyria, but a dragon in the place its ancestors were born!
I am curious how they leave things at the end of season 5.
We already have four Winds of Winter chapters exerted that deal with events in and around Meereen during the battle to break the siege.
So Selmy could die in the battle and maybe Grey Worm too.
Then the Unsullied would need a new ‘general’, seems screwy to cast a new actor for that role.
If everything is supposed to converge back to the book story I don’t know how this will work skipping over a whole bunch of Meereen narrative!
aurane waters,
Based on all your comments here, it seems you just really hate women and “evil” feminist. And you think they are the ones’s responsible for people taking the statuary rape of young men not that seriously. Which is weird, since it’s almost always the dude-bros talking about how hot the rapist is and how the victim is lucky. But, nope it’s the feminazis trying to keep the man down!!!!!!!!!!
asdf,
Almost certainly a possibility. I hope not, though…
HahaGay!!,
I wont lie it is very hard for me to see Tommen as the victim that some on here want to make him out to be because unlike Sansa he has power and way more control over his situation then she ever had over her’s
Also unlike Sansa lets be honest here this kid is a Horney Teenanger
(He definitely didn’t look shy when he was kissing margaery in the trailers)
If Tommen was just a regular kid who was powerless than maybe I could see things a little differently but as it stands He is just another Horney king who is not going to pass up the opportunity to be with Margaery
He is just like his “Fake” dad Robert lol
Luka Nieto,
I think that you’re right on point with this.
It works on all levels, in my book. I’m beginning to suspect that these David and Dan guys know what they’re doing. 😉
Luka Nieto,
Yes I like this prospect a lot. Even early on, when we were all discussion how that geography would work out, this seemed like a tantalizing possibility.
Sue the Fury,
He/she had a point though – I stumbled across the same thing. In your article, you talk about Meereen right before that. Then, the next paragraph (about Pentos) starts with “Across the Narrow Sea …”. Since our minds have wandered with your narrative from KL to Meereen, the next sentence implies Meereen as a local reference point for what’s to come. When I then read “across the Narrow Sea”, I automatically thought “as seen from Meereen”, and by this Pentos would have to be actually in Westeros. Whereas “across the Dothraki Sea” would make a little more sense as Pentos is somewhat across the Dothraki Seas as seen from Meereen.
I hope so too! It would be a compromise and would fit more closely with the book storyline.
Luka Nieto,
I’m with you! Wasn’t excited about
before but now that you mention it, could be awesome and lots of possibilities, including
Hey, I just had one question. You mentioned that Episode 4 is great; would you say it’s as good as And Now His Watch Is Ended?
That’s one of my favourite episodes, so it would be cool to see how it compares.
@Sue
Thank you so much for this review. At this point, I’m like a sponge lapping up all there is about the new season. I’m worried about Sansa and super excided for Doran.
Can I ask a question about the Arya-arc?
rex,
They’re like Kanye West using a classic song, altering it and adding their own awful twist to it. He’s not a songwriter the same way D&D are not writers. Book fans aren’t upset because it’s different from the books, we are upset because it’s very poor story writing and that’s being generous. Why do we complain? It feels good to vent our frustrations. D&D have taken pure gold and turned it into shit. Sort of the reverse Midas effect.
Young Griff,
D&D are writers.
I won’t even acknowledge the rest of your… “argument.”
Jaime’s girl,
Young Griff,
“They’re like Kanye West”
and this is where I stopped reading lol
@disappointed book readers
Meh, I’ve given up on being disappointed by the changes in the show. I actually find this Sansa stuff kind of exciting. I’m going to enjoy this season more than the last few.
Thanks for the review, Sue! I’m really looking forward to all the Stannis scenes, and dreading the Sansa ones. I just can’t get behind that change no matter how hard I try.
At some point people have to realize this is entertainment fiction. You can’t keep nitpicking at every little tiny potential plot whole. I don’t think its THAT hard to accept that not much is known of Ramsay in the show.
Even in the books, there are moments where you kinda question some of the logic. For example, the sack of Astapor was one of the greatest chapters/scenes in the entire series, but honestly…. admit that you questioned at some point if the slavers were REALLY that dumb…. There will always be little things to pick apart… but this is not real life.
jentario,
Yeah, I’ve always found that it’s the people going in looking to compare them with the books that are most disappointed. I love the books, but I find that if you go in not looking for unattainable goals then you get something more from it.
It’s not so much going with the attitude “Shame they didn’t do X”, but “D&D are hacks who don’t understand (or have not read) the books if they don’t do X”.
Of the Night,
Sorry. Maybe that came out wrong (English not being my native language and all that). In my defense, I did mention that it was in a good way, :).
Young Griff,
Thank you for speaking for all fans of the books!
Wait.
I’m a fan of the books, and I think overall D&D have done an excellent job.
So, yeah, while you’re welcome to speak for yourself, please don’t presume to speak for others.
Thanks.
Luka Nieto,
My favorite moment from the trailers was the clip of Tyrion looking up and seeing the dragon. The thought he sees
is just…I can’t even quite find words for it, but I will be beside myself with excitement if it happens!
Luka Nieto,
Yes genius, in a literal sens they are writers. I was implying that they are poor writers. I thought that was rather obvious but apparently not everyone was able to make that easy inference. They’re not good writers. Understand this time? That’s just my opinion and that of many others as well.
Luka Nieto,
I was implying that they were not writers in the sense that they’re not good writers. I thought that was obvious but apparently I needed to spell it out for some. They’re horrible writers. Understand this time?
Young Griff,
Edit feature isn’t available on my smart phone. Read either response or neither, good day.
Yes, 500 fans on tumblr, reddit and westeros.org. What a popular opinion!
I loved the books and I love the show. There are some things I didn’t like the way the show changed them and other things I did. Last season I found myself hoping for a deviation from the books for the first time, I was hoping Oberyn would somehow survive, lol. Silly, I know, but I was hoping! I have never been happy with the character changes the show has made in regards to Littlefinger. Book LF has some very elaborate plans and has planned back up plan on top of back up plan and knows he has to adapt his plans accordingly. Show LF seems to be making plans by the seat of his pants in some cases. (Ex: when Sansa was being questioned in the Vale- Book LF would not have let her walk in there without making sure she knew what to say and do.) I don’t feel the show portrays his character as well as the books. He is an incredibly intelligent, ambitious, and PATIENT man. From the spoilers I have read I don’t think the WF storyline will be a well thought out plan for him, not for the long term anyway, imo LF would not play his best hand (Sansa Stark) until it was time.
Young Dragon,
Being in possession of a Stark who is married to the heir of the Vale when the Starks are in teh ascendency isn’t a bad position to be in! Throwing her into a marriage with someone who could be about to lose their power is a daft move. Whichever way you cut it, the better plan would be to see who wins then make your move. If Stannis does win and install Rickon then Sansa being married to Ramsay isn’t going ot be too good for her. If the Boltons win then there’s still the Rickon threat and LF is marrying his prize asset off to a psychopath! Nobody really knows what LF is trying to do but this really does seem like an incredibly stupid plan on the surface of it.
Young Dragon,
That chaotic balance of which you speak is spectacular!
Jared,
Luka Nieto,
Yeah, as we discussed a few weeks back, this journey west has amazing potential, regardless of the geography. For some reason, I am looking forward to this segment more than other highlights of this season….just because of the history and exposition aspect of it.
AFFC and ADWD are pure gold?
That is the funniest thing I’ve heard this year.
Those two books are pure shit, and every change D&D made on them in 3 months of writing is better than disgrace GURM gave us after 11 years.
TheTouchOfFrost,
Littlefinger is already in control of the Vale though and has been made Lord Protector. Robin adores him and will do anything he asks, so he already has the Vale army at his disposal. I don’t see how it’s a good idea for Littlefinger to procrastinate in the Vale when Stannis is in the process of rallying the North to his cause. I don’t think any marriage between Ramsay and Sansa will last and think it’s part of Littlefinger’s plan to root out the Boltons and rally the North to his side before Stannis gets the chance to. Like you said, we don’t know what Littlefinger’s ultimate plan is and it may, in fact, be stupid, but I think it’s too early to brush it off just yet.
TheTouchOfFrost,
I have a question…does anyone knows that Rickon is alive?
Isn’t supposed to be dead? Like…in everyone’s eyes?
The Boltons knows as per shaving scene with Theon/Ramsay. That is why Locke was sent up to the Wall
Yeah, but with Locke out of the story, they kind of assumed that the kids were dead, right?
Yes.
Roose Bolton: (stares at him)…Walk with me. (they walk up a hillside) Has there been any word from Locke?
Ramsay Snow: No.
Roose Bolton: Unimportant. A cripple, and a young boy… None of the Northern lords have seen them. Dead, most likely.
TheTouchOfFrost,
Young Dragon,
People seem to forget that Littlefinger ended season four with a much better hold of the Vale than he did in A Feast for Crows. There are no Lord Declarants in the show —in fact, Yohn Royce and Anya Waynwood seem to support Littlefinger 100% now. Last we saw them, Petyr was convincing them to side against the Lannisters:
Book readers really seem to forget that crucial scene and assume Littlefinger’s situation is just as it was left off the the fourth book. However, that’s not the case at all: in the show Littlefinger has the Vale in his firm grasp —the Lords that are against him in the books support him in the show (and seem to be antagonistic towards the Lannisters, and may even be willing to rebel!), and Robin himself seems to love and respect Petyr much more as well. That matters. Next week, when we see Littlefinger leave Robin Arryn with Yohn Royce, that will be the Bronze Yohn of Game of Thrones, who by the end of season four had a newfound respect for Littlefinger. When Littlefinger leaves the Vale, he will leave the Vale of the show, which already is his with no opposition, not the Vale of the books.
There has to be more to this. I think I may have a possible solution: maybe Littlefinger intends to bargain with Stannis from a position of strength instead of having Sansa go beg him for her rightful place as Lady of Winterfell. That is, he intends to fuck up the Boltons from within the walls of Winterfell, or more likely to force them to leave the castle and fight Stannis outside (which kinda happens in the books, though of course Littlefinger and Sansa are not the culprits), so that when Stannis arrives to the fortress, Sansa, the Knights of the Vale and some Northern Lords will have the castle in their hands. Stannis will have to either accept Sansa as the Lady of Winterfell (which he would probably do anyway, though from a position of authority) or confront a protracted siege after the battles and storms he has faced to reach Winterfell.
That makes sense to me. At least, that’s that I think will happen, even if Littlefinger didn’t plan it all. Also, it more or less lines up with the end of ADWD and what we know of TWOW.
Ok, thanks 🙂 …just asking because of the “Rickon threat” that one poster was mentioning.
Ionuts,
No need to apologise. You described me perfectly. And your English is much better than I could manage with whatever your first language is.
Young Dragon,
Well, we have different opinions on the matter. If I was LF I’d be patient. Stannis isn’t after the North, he want’s the throne.To have a Stark on his side would win him a lot of backing in the north so that would be perfect for Sansa plus with his connection to her, LF could potentially bring Rickon into the fold too. Having such influence over both the North and Vale is a powerful position to be in. Marrying Sansa to Ramsay at this point is silly. Wait until the Boltons have secured the north if that’s the way you want to play it. Let’s not forget that Baelish is also officially the Liege Lord of the Riverlands and also the Lord of Harrenhal. LF could potentially have 3 of the seven kingdoms (even though it’s actually nice) under his influence! But I guess we’ll see what he’s got in mind. I think he’s the only player in the game who I still don’t really know what they are actually after.
Luka Nieto,
I like the idea of LF/Sansa and the Vale contingent playing the role of the Northern Lords but it could still get messy if not done properly. Still wondering if the KBtW will show up or not!
I think the Boltons and Theon aren’t certain but hopeful that they’re dead. Musn’t forget Sam and Gilly know too (or at least know that Theon didn’t kill them ) so I wonder how long it will be before Jon finds out.
TheTouchOfFrost,
What do you mean? Jon knows in the show. Sam, who in the show made no promise to Bran not to tell Jon, of course did tell Jon. They even discussed going beyond the Wall to find him, possibly at Craster’s, just before actually going to Craster’s, in Oatkheeper, :
As for this:
That’s not what he wants. From screener reports, we know he wants Sansa to wait for Stannis to win. I suggest how that makes sense in my previous post: instead of having Sansa go beg Stannis for her rightful place as Lady of Winterfell, Littlefinger intends to bargain with Stannis from a position of strength, by somehow forcing the Boltons to leave the castle and fight Stannis outside (just as a Northern lord does in the books, though it’s Freys and Manderlys who go out, not the Boltons themselves), so that when Stannis arrives to the castle, it will be in the hands of Sansa, the Knights of the Vale and some Stark Loyalist Northern Lords (a Northern Lady whispers “the North remembers” to Sansa in an early episode, apparently.) Stannis will have to either accept Sansa as the Lady of Winterfell (which he would probably do anyway, though from a position of authority) or confront a protracted siege after the battles and storms he has faced to reach Winterfell.
Sorry to drag this out even further, but I’d like to second the notion that saying Dean Charles Chapman is lucky for playing romantic scenes opposite Natalie Dormer is NOT THE SAME as saying Tommen is lucky for getting with Margaery. Chapman is an actor working with another actor in a safe environment, and he is not being taken advantage of.
Also seconding the notion that the issue of consent is not clear cut even as far as the characters are concerned. Far as I see it, age difference is only creepy in as much as it results in a power differential. For example, a teacher sleeping with their current student is wrong no matter if the student is of legal age or not, because the teacher is in a place of institutional authority over the student. The entire idea of “age of consent” is based upon the notion that being under a certain age (an age which varies from culture to culture) means that there is an inherent power imbalance. In the case of Margaery and Tommen, she is certainly preying his credulous simplicity to an extent, but on the other hand he is the King, and therefore the issue of possible power differential is less clear-cut.
There is certainly a double-standard about these kinds of matters in our society, but I actually don’t find it to be very strong in this particular fandom, since the shipping of Maisie Williams and Joe Dempsie seems common enough.
Luka Nieto,
My point was that more than Theon and the Boltons know to Mau and Bungle, but I must have missed or forgotton that part of the conversation between Sam and Jon. The whole Crasters thing although not a disaster was a touch messy. This is why I worry about some of the changes coming this season. Fingers crossed they pull them off.
Are we under the impression Sansa is going there to marry him or as Alayne as part of the Vale party? I still find it a dangerous move to make when LF would still be in a strong position to negotiate with Stannis with Sansa and the Vale behind him. Restoring her to Winterfell would get him huge Brownie Points with the north as opposed to just taking Winterfell. Do we know Davos is going after Rickon in the show yet? Certainly going to be interesting. Just hope it’s good as well!
Am I correct in thinking that Olly has basically taken the Satin storyline from the books?
what i want to know is about How was the soundtrack? was good? the angles of filming? good as alwyas? the perfomance of the actors? how was it??
And by “preying” I mean “preying on” and by “preying on” I mean “practising on”.
I’m actually more ashamed I got the reference wrong than by the grammatical error.
lol,
Shakeup and conversation dynamics at the Wall are fun to imagine, it’s like playing unlikely matchups
Imagine a Tormund/Shireen dialogue
or a Stannis/Gilly dialogue
or a Melisandre/Alliser Thorne
How would those type of things go hehe
Ghost’s Lunch,
I bet Shireen and Wun Wun would be great buddies! 😀
Ghost’s Lunch,
In the books, Stannis insults Gilly for bearing her father’s child even though she was a victim of abuse.
A Mean Potato,
“Her own father got this child on her? We are well rid of her, then. I will not suffer such abominations here. This is not King’s Landing.”
I thought that was hilarious. I’m actually hoping they wrote a line for Stannis that is in similar humor, to lighten up his character in the show.
The Stranger,
Satin isn’t and doesn’t have a “storyline”, but yes, it seems Olly has taken Satin’s role.
TheTouchOfFrost,
We know for a fact it’s as Sansa, not Alayne.
As for Rickon, he went to Last Hearth in the show, so if Davos deals with someone it won’t be far away from Stannis on his own mission, but on the way to Winterfell, at Last Hearth. Hopefully that’ll be part of their story this season. —to gain the support of Greatjon Umber, who is alive and free in the show canon (it’s telling that they bothered to establish that in the Blu-Ray materials.) The context will be a bit different, since (presumably) the Greatjon will already have Rickon. However, hopefully Umber will give us a version of the Manderly speech, maybe mixed in with that pro-Stark speech from that Northern mountain man whose name I don’t remember.
Gwenivere,
Haha, right? Parental rape is hilarious!
You have to hand it to Stannis fans.
I love how they upped Dany’s braid game this season.
Luka Nieto,
Must have missed that bit. How has it been confirmed? What was the thinking behind her dying her hair then?!
The Rickon/Umber thing is an example of sensible changes/streamlining. Perhaps the Northern Lords are missing from the Winterfell story so as to be held in reserve to back Rickon?