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This week’s Post-Mortem offers extra insight into last night’s controversial episode of Game of Thrones, “The Dance of Dragons,” with new interviews from Liam Cunningham, Iain Glen, Michiel Huisman, D.B. Weiss, and more.
Liam Cunningham has two great new interviews out today, the first with Vulture. The actor who plays Davos Seaworth talks about the shocking events of last night’s episode and his reaction when he received his scripts last year:
I remember reading the last two episodes, and I forgot to close my mouth when reading both of them. They’re dramatically delicious, and difficult as well. Difficult as a viewer. But I mean that in a good sense. You’ll be looking through your fingers. I think we’ll have people screaming at the television. It’s going to be such a treat for the audience.
On saying goodbye to Shireen portrayer Kerry Ingram:
I had a little moment with Kerry. We exchanged gifts, as our characters did. I gave her a little silver stag, and she gave me a beautiful cushion with an embroidered stag on it, and it was completely by coincidence that we both had these little stag things that we gave to each other. I think in was in the last couple of days before production shut down for the season. So it was sad, because I really respect her, not only as a glorious young lady and a beautiful human being, but she’s also fantastically professional and well prepared on set. She’s got a wicked sense of humor as well. She’s just lovely. So professionally, I’m really sad that I won’t be working with her again. Those were some of my favorite scenes, what I did with her.
In the New York Times, Cunningham described losing Shireen as “an awful loss, both professionally and personally,” since he loves working with Ingram. Of working with her, he says:
There’s an old actor’s saying about how you don’t work with children or animals. I disagree with both of them. Some of the best times I’ve ever had were working with kids, because there’s an honesty to them.
Of people saying the show is being too cruel by killing Shireen, Cunningham says:
It should be horrific. But there’s been many a horrific thing. We’ve only to look at any time Joffrey showed up on screen. Bad things happen to good people on this show, and good things happen to bad people. That’s one of the reasons I think audiences like it, is it’s not condescending. It expects you to bring your brain along. The controversy with Sansa- so many people were heartbroken. It shouldn’t have been the reward for someone who was growing in stature and growing as a woman. But it’s “Game of Thrones” and it’s challenging. The best kind of television should mess with your head.
Showrunner and writer D.B. Weiss talks to Entertainment Weekly about the decision to have Stannis sacrifice his daughter this week.
“Horrible things happening to people in this show, and this is one that we thought was entirely [narratively] justified,” he says to EW. “It was set-up by the predicament that Stannis was in. It will be awful to see, but it’s supposed to be awful.”
Examining the subject further, Weiss says:
The very first time we saw Stannis and Melisandre, they were burning people alive on the beaches of Dragonstone and it’s really all come to this. There’s been so much talk of king’s blood, and the power of king’s blood, and it all leads ultimately, fatally, to Shireen’s sacrifice, and it’s one of the most horrible moments we’ve shot … It’s obviously the hardest choice he’s ever made in his life and for Stannis it comes down to ambition versus familial love and for Stannis and for Stannis sadly that choice is ambition.
For more in-depth discussion of the subject from Weiss, check out the complete interview at Entertainment Weekly.
Making Game of Thrones has two new interviews up today. The first is with Iain Glen who had a huge night in “The Dance of Dragons,” with Jorah tearing up the gladiator ring.
He says of the match:
There’s one point where he feels that it’s over, and he looks to her. I don’t think he wants her to stop it – he’s willing to sacrifice himself – but he’s saying, “Do you believe me now?” It forces Daenerys to react. Jorah can see her panic and fear. But she’s a strong lady and she’s made her decision. There’s a lovely moment after the fight when everything goes pear-shaped, a hand is offered and a hand is taken. Something is forgiven and united at the moment.
The second interview is with the man who plays Dany’s other admirer, Michiel Huisman.
MGOT asks if Daario processed Hizdahr’s death in the chaos of Daznak’s Pit. The actor says:
Yes. I haven’t seen the episode yet, but I hope that registers. Daario thinks that Hizdahr’s going to do something to Dany and then he gets stabbed in the back like, 20 times. I hope that moment reads where I’m thinking, “OK… I guess I was wrong about this dude.
Head over to MGoT to read more of Iain and Michiel’s interviews about making the episode.
In this week’s Inside the Episode, David Benioff and D.B. Weiss discuss Stannis’s decision, Arya’s opportunity with an old enemy, the epic sequence of Daznak’s Pit, and Dany’s connection to Drogon. (Note: the much-discussed “When George first told us about this” quote from Benioff is around the 1:30 mark.)
Alexander Siddig and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau discuss the uneasy trust developing between the Martells and the Lannisters in Dorne.
George R.R. Martin educates fans on the legendary fighting pits of Meereen.
I will be laughing really hard if Shireen dies on ASOIAF felling from the starcase… This was injustified and completely OOC
My heart hurts after reading Liam’s comments about Kerry 🙁
In one episode, Bronn sings a song. In the next, we get an army of ice. Last night, we got a whole lot of fire.
The last three episodes have basically been a stealth pun.
I say.. we all band together behind Renly’s shade! Cast aside your evil R’hllor worshipers and false kings! Write all the angry letters and voice your opinions, fans!
Make D&D introduce Lord Peachheart in S6. Stannis must pay!
It was so heartbreaking to watch Shireen go 🙁
Right now I am curious how it happens in the books if it’s confirmed to be a GRRM thing, so probably considered future book canon… Because Shireen wasn’t in Stannis’s camp in the books, was she?
Out of every episode 9 of every season dance of dragons was my least favorite. Dazniks pit incredable , the stuff with shireen emotionally gripping , intense but it seems to me the show runners are stupefying the show . Tyene I’m the most beuatiful girl in the world twice , obara sand I am obara sand twice . That’s a big waste of dorne and it’s becoming problematic cause the very nature of thrones is the deepness of it’s story . Overall I give it a b- 7.8 outa 10. The pit announce was the best
This entire meltdown has been delicious from start to end. Thank you, D&D and GRRM.
Did I mention how much I LOVE Liam Cunningham? His every interview or appearance is full of unabashed enthusiasm for the show, and he’s always eager to engage the fans.
I need to meet him. I NEED to.
SlayerNina,
Why? And I do not mean to deny your opinion, but it´s way too early to judge that by now, so how can you know?
We do not really know much about TWOW nor does GRR reveal much about it, so how can you be sure the Shireen-Incident isn´t something that will not happen in the books sooner or later.
Furthermore, saying that this is OOC for Stannis or at least a Stannis pushed to his limits by both the current circumstances and Melisandre, is your judgement. I beg to differ. For me it´s a cruel, yet still logical decision to make by either Stannis (yes, Book-Stannis, too). So saying it is unjustified or OOC is both a bit early and maybe not even true, since at least one other person could well imagine it as a thing that Stannis could do.
SlayerNina,
I see the denial is still going strong,poor thing. Stannis sucks dick !
Mr Fixit,
You´re not the only one, he seems like such a great guy, both on- and off-screen.
Regarding greyscale, Jorah takes Dany’s left hand, and later Missandei takes Dany’s right hand. So if Dany is immune, Missandei shouldn’t get it.
Never mind all that, what we really want to know is WTF was Mace Tyrell singing?
Why do D&D think Stannis is driven by ambition? He isn’t, at least not in the books. He is a painfully righteous man and he truly believes he is Robert’s rightful heir. I think he doesn’t even want to rule at all, he just believes he is supposed to.
You know what,i respect D&D even more now that they don’t care about some mindless fanboys outrages and just write the story they want to write,there is nothing worse than pandering,if it were up to some of these so called “fans”,Stannis would be the ultimate survivor,Dany .Jon,Tyrion would all be dead and the WWs would all be killed with a snap of the finger by the great,mighty and perfect who can do no wrong Stannis Baratheon,look i understand having your favorites but this stuff was getting way out of hand .
Ena of Oldstones,
I think he truly believes he’s Rob’s true heir but he truly believes he is also Azor Ahai reborn. There is not doubt in my mind in both books and show he believes this. Mel whispering in his ear that he the Lords chosen one constantly helps full his ambition and to me theres nothing stopping him.
If he thought himself truly righteous he would have stayed at Castle Black and help the Night’s Watch fight the real enemy whom he knows is the real threat. This, at-least to me proves he is nothing more than a player in the Game of Thrones.
Ena of Oldstones,
That’s your interpretation of his character,that doesn’t mean it’s also true . Again,this is what’s wrong with Stannis fans imo,they think their interpretations and theories about the character is what’s actually presented on screen,which is not the case .
Ena of Oldstones,
Hint: Don’t take Stannis’ insistent “duty” b.s. at face value. He wants the Iron Throne for the sake of it. He wants the approval that’s been denied him his whole life. He wants to step out of Robert’s shadow.
Yep, and I really hope that tWoW turns into a decent novelization of GoT once it gets published in 2019. Wouldn´t want to let the book delusionals down.
I liked that Daario finally showed some of the arrogant swagger his character has in the books. On the show, they have him playing a bit too much of the dreamy romantic foil.
That scene was such a gut punch, the screams were truly haunting and I gave myself a second to believe Stannis would break but he did not.
Its June and in Westors I believe no one will be getting any Father’s Day card. There are no deserving ones and the only deserving father “lost his head at Kings Landing”
Renly’s Peach,
Haha, that is a drastic choice of words, but after all, Renly would have been the one I would have declared for. Assuming that I would have had a voice in that decision, of course…
Nice to see there are still some around who haven´t forgotten about the king in Highgarden.
Dark-Stark,
THIS!!!!!
Is it a certainty that Hizdahr is dead? It sure looked that way, but is it confirmed?
Iain Glen is getting some fantastic fight scenes this season, that last little move he did in the pit (before the spear-throwing, apparently he has amazing eyesight) was pretty sweet. Long live the Stoneman.
Kerry Ingram was the best girl in Westeros.
I am just excited to see what Davos does now. You know he prides himself on the fact he speaks truth to Stannis.
He’s going to go off! I bet he takes the black. I am not 100% sure and ultimately Stannis can burn Davos if he wants but isn’t taking the black suppose to free you from all past crimes and from the laws of the realm?
So if Davos takes the black, and Stannis is “Mr. By the Books” when it comes to realm law, all Stannis can do is watch him leave right?
So that’s my first guess and kind of hope… Davos leaves for the Night’s Watch. He still can somehow get sent on a mission for Rickon, so it all can work.
You know, I think TV Shireen dying is more of a gut punch than Book Shireen possibly buying it because Book Shireen is your average child, while TV Shireen is nothing short of angelic: trusting, purehearted, loving, kind, generous, intelligent, blind to class differences, etc. Kerry Ingram’s portrayal reinforced that; she was effortlessly endearing from the get-go. She’s pretty much the best GOT has to offer apart from Davos, so her death hits that much harder.
I liked the pit announcer. Loud, booming voice that reminded me of Brian Blessed.
I see what you did there.
Knight of Storm´s End,
The choice is no choice at all. The King in Highgarden was the one true king that was robbed from us. EVEN NOW my knees bend like butter, good ser! <:c
I'm glad more people are starting to really see what kind of monster Stannis has been all along.
Also, completely unrelated —
But where's that guy that was arguing with me about Ramsay not jumping the shark? You still gonna say that to me with a straight face? Him and "20 good men" entered a highly fortified camp made up of thousands of people and set off choreographed fires all over to go off at once, then escaped without any getting caught? Because "they knew the landscape"? lol
Someone pointed out on another board that Stannis is all about his duty and his rights but has a highly selective regard for others’: he urged Jon to turn his back on the NW for his own purposes despite knowing full well Jon had taken vows for life. He also snorted at Book Jon’s correct assertion that Sansa was the heir to Winterfell by rights (at least, as far as Book Jon knew), since her rights weren’t politically useful to him. Such bullshit.
I don’t understand why people are surprised that Stannis would sacrifice his daughter; he’s always given me the impression that he would sacrifice anything to fulfill his “destiny”.
I do fear that Brienne is going to take a shot at Stannis though. I swear, if that bitch kills another favourite character off after The Hound, I’m gonna suit up myself and kill her…. I mean, who’s next for Brienne? Bronn??
Totally off topic, but I’m wondering what everyone thinks will happen in Jon’s arc next week? I assumed all season that
There has been an overdose of setup in every episode for Olly killing Jon, but I feel like there’s so much stuff going on next week (the preview looks loaded with tons of lengthy storylines & they will most likely end with the Varys scene) and it would be just like them to not include it this season and leave it for the beginning of next. This would also be a good way to ensure that set photos of Kit don’t ruin the fact that he’s been resurrected.
I’m being pessimistic here, though, because I would love to see it next week and I don’t think it will be a very strong finale without it. What does everyone think?
Shireen left no impression on me in the books. I also never got the sense that Stannis really cared about her, beyond recognizing her as his only heir, once he killed Renly. The show went much farther in establishing the relationship between them. I wonder if this is because D&D knew what was coming? To be honest, the affection Stannis showed towards Shireen in the show always seemed OOC for the Stannis from the books, as I could never picture him showing any emotion or giving comfort to a sad child.
On topic, however, I loved the second half of the episode – Daznak’s was my favorite scene in the entire series so far. I will gladly admit that I cried pretty hard at the Shireen scene and it was probably the hardest thing to watch so far, but I loved that also. Thrilled to see that it’s GRRM’s scene from tWoW and therefore Stannis fans cannot hate. “But in the books, he might do it for a different reason!” Oh, really? He BURNS HIS DAUGHTER ALIVE for a different reason? Well, then, it’s totally okay.
It’s in character. I absolutely loathed Stannis in the books, then this season the show made me like him a little, now I loathe him again. Nothing new. He’s a heartless fanatic who will do anything to get what he wants.
It’s always amazing how easy it is to cite ‘duty’ when it so closely aligns with what someone wants.
Stannis felt slighted his entire life. No wonder it was so easy for Melisendre to sell him that in reality he’s the most special snowflake ever. And then his ‘duty’ from that point on syncs with his ambition.
JTargs,
Nah, there’s been way too much set up for them to drop it. It’s like Dany staring at those dragon eggs every other episode in season 1.
Interesting that Liam Cunningham believes that Davos had no notion that Stannis would burn Shireen. While I can accept that, I think it was possible to view the episode with the subtext that Davos at least suspected: his repeated requests to take Shireen, his scene with Shireen that felt like a goodbye, etc.
M,
Yeah, to be honest, I kind of think Stannis is one of the biggest hypocrites in the Seven Kingdoms, if only largely because he sells himself as the only man who isn’t a hypocrite, even though of course he can be quite hypocritical at times.
Stannis isn’t really about following the rules. Rules are big with him, but more as a means of determining who deserves what. And that’s really Stannis’s game: He wants to see people get what they deserve, him and everyone else, and he’s the ultimate arbiter of determining what people deserve.
He followed the rules, and the rules now say it’s his turn to be king. Therefore he deserves to be king and anything that helps him get his just reward is justified. Davos was a smuggler, so he deserves to be punished, but he helped Stannis out, so he deserves to be rewarded. The guards failed to prevent the attack on his camp, so they deserve to be executed.
It’s never been about playing by the rules. It’s about making sure that everyone gets what they deserve, including himself. Especially himself.
Bummer. Until I read Liam’s comments I was crossing my fingers for Shireen’s burning to be a glamour trick.
Delta1212,
I would say the opposite: Stannis’ problem is that he is incapable of double standards. X is wrong and Y is right, always and for everyone. There is no sense of “if A+B+C then X is right, else it is wrong”. Hypocrites and pragmatists have one thing in common: right and wrong are context dependent. Stannis understands no context.
We see this early in the series with Ned Stark. Ned is most comfortable being an absolutist, but something makes him comprehend the concept of context. Stannis seems never to have had such an awakening. (This is what gets Ned killed, nevertheless: his refusal to support Renly over Stannis coupled with his refusal to endanger women and children combine to let Cesrei triumph over him.)
Interesting comments from Jessica Henwick about the Sand Snakes in 5×10:
“What happens with the Sand Snakes is…extreme. Very extreme. So I’m really curious to see how people take it. I don’t know what else I can say!” says Henwick with a laugh. “Episode 10 sets the rest of the show on a very certain path. It’s a big move in Game of Thrones, and the Sand Snakes are a part of it.”
Huh. So I guess they don’t just leave off in 5×09 with the Sand Snakes chuckling over Tyene being a slut.
“Episode 10 sets the rest of the show on a very certain path” sounds pretty ominous. Is this Doran’s plan? Having Myrcella killed? Having Jaime killed? Having Tommen killed if the Sand Snakes accompany Myrcella to KL?
Salvatore Leone,
Right. Stannis always had that really ugly character flaw and it’ll be exposed in tWoW just like it is here. Being a show though with a limited amount of budget and time, they can’t really have many ways to communicate that flaw. Thusly why Stannis seems more evil in show than he does book.
His bit with Jon demonstrates his hypocrisy. “I AM THE HEIR BY RIGHT…but LOL, Sansa being the heir by right to Winterfell doesn’t count because she’s married to a Lannister.” “DUTY AND HONOUR ARE EVERYTHING TO ME…but not to you, because I need you to turn your back on the NW for my own reasons.” What is that if not “context-dependent” rights and wrongs?
M,
I’m curious what this could be. Man, next year will be so hard on us all, not knowing anything.
I’m literally devastated about how this happened, yes there has been numerous horrible deaths but not a single one that you couldn’t rationally accept cause they were all commited by either psychos or bastards against their enemies somehow this one is totally diffrent and went the opposite way I expected (perhaps that is part of why I am so shocked too) cause as stubborn and cold as Stannis always have been it’s with Shireen we’ve got to see some normal humanity in him as it stands now it’s impossible not to see him as the worst person in the world.
M,
I think Davos was concerned, but didn’t think Stannis would ever go that far. He still believes in Stannis, both as a king and as a friend, and this blinds him to the true depths of Stannis’s zealotry and willingness to sacrifice everyone and everything to fulfill his “destiny.”
Personally, I think this is the end of the line for Stannis. He will die at Winterfell in tears and overwhelmed with sorrow and regret for murdering his own daughter, perhaps even resigning himself to his fate.
…or at least that’s how I hope it happens. It would be kinda poetic and make me pity him at least somewhat.
debbie,
Yeah, I kind of thought she would survive the flames like Dany did, as the “stone dragon” that is prophesied to waken at some point in the books.
Also, if they give Dany and Missandei greyscale from all that handholding with Jorah, I will be rolling my eyes at the show even harder than I am right now.
Salvatore Leone,
I am not a Stannis fan at all.
I agree that Mel influences him a great deal, but this is a man who ate shoe leather at Dragonstone. A man who left instructions to make sure Shireen, his only heir, inherits the throne in case he dies. Isn’t that what it’s all about? Inheriting the throne because it is his by right, and then passing it on to her because it would be hers by right?
Besides, as he said in the books when his force was in deep snow: “I will have no burnings. Pray harder.”
I like the idea of TV Stannis dying with the knowledge that he sacrificed his daughter for nothing, but for that to happen, the Boltons would have to defeat Stannis, and that isn’t an appealing prospect.
Also, we know that TV Stannis is planning a siege and that TV Roose intends to hang tight and wait out Stannis, so I wonder if we’ll get any kind of resolution to this storyline in 5×10.
M,
Simple: Stannis has already attainted the Lannisters and their supporters. So, Sansa Lannister is attainted in his mind. And the Men of the Night’s Watch exist to serve the Realm. That is a higher Oath than serving the Watch.
One key thing to understand about moral absolutists is that they frequently just cannot see apparent moral conundrums. Everything is “obvious” to them: it is not an “if/else” decision tree, but a hierarchical one in which they believe it is “obvious” which issue takes precedence.
I’m lazy, so I’ll copy past my analysis from the other thread and then get into my thoughts on Stannis since that’s where the convo is going.
After sleeping on it, I think that the past two episodes represented ice and fire.
In Hardhome, we saw what “winter is coming” really means. It’s not just a catchphrase. It means terrifying and intelligent otherworldly creatures who bring deathly cold mists and a relentless undead army.
If this is the adversary, fire must be key to victory, right?
Maybe. But at what cost? In the north we have a Lord of Light demanding the sacrifice of an innocent child. In Meereen we have a fire a scene that seems cool and uplifting. A necessary good thing to counter the horror of Shireen’s death. But that’s the case only on the surface.
The conversation Dany and co. had before Jorah entered the pits wasn’t there for shits and giggles. What Hizdahr said about cruelty being necessary to achieve great things is very much true. At least in this story. The dragons are a powerful weapon. Dany can’t take Westeros without them. But they can’t be fully controlled and their fire won’t just be burning people who are trying to kill Dany. We saw at Harrenhal that the first time around, the Targ conquest of Westeros involved a whole lot of burning.
The last two episodes were a stark (no pun intended) reminder that this isn’t really a good vs. evil story. Both beating back the White Walkers and restoring order and peace to Westeros are going to require more than just throwing a ring in a volcano or throwing a pail of water on a witch. It’s going to get ugly.
On Stannis’ motives. I think it’s pretty clear the first time we meet him in ACOK, it’s not all about duty or saving the world. Seriously, reread the prologue of that book if you’re a book reader. He’s jealous of Robert for being the eldest brother and renowned warrior. He resentful and jealous of Renly for getting Storm’s End instead of him. He respects Ned but is also jealous and resentful of him because Robert loved Ned like a brother and not Stannis. He feels aggrieved and slighted. And that is precisely why he was so vulnerable to a charismatic zealot like Melisandre. She told him exactly what he wanted to hear. That he’s special. He has a destiny. He’s supposed to get exactly what he wants. To be king. To be a hero. To get respect, at last.
Now he can’t go back. If he doesn’t take his quest to the extreme and do everything he can to fulfill it, he’s not special. He doesn’t have a destiny. All of what he has done was for nothing. That’s why he made this choice, I think. When he still thought he had a chance of winning militarily and strategically, he could listen to his conscience and to Davos and not do the horrible things Melisandre is counseling him to do. But in this episode he’s truly backed into a corner and he gives in to her. It was terrible to a see, and not a choice I would ever make. But it was not a surprise either.
I think there’s a definite dissonance between show Stannis and book Stannis and this is where it comes out most plainly. If in the books Stannis burns Shireen then I expect I really will feel differently, because in the books I’ll be more inclined to think of it as a selfless act. One thing I wouldn’t believe of book Stannis is that he would deceive Shireen before burning her. I think the showrunners think at heart Stannis is some kind of combination of ambitious and cowardly, and in having Stannis hide while Shireen screams for him they make Stannis that much worse. It really doesn’t square with what has come before even on the show.
One thing I really hope we get in the story is exactly what Melisandre saw in the flames that sold her on Stannis in the first place. The consequences have been tragic and catastrophic for just about everyone but her. As things stand, I’m inclined to believe the showrunners that Shireen being sacrificed happens later in the books, but that I don’t trust them to reveal future developments ahead of the books because they have a much heavier hand. This settles for me that I won’t be watching season 6 unless the book comes out first, because it’s just not as good.
If the Boltons defeat Stannis, the victory will be short-lived
Stranger,
In the books, people seem to fear getting greyscale only from fullblown Stonemen. Of course, in the books, they also think that it is due to “humors” found in waters and fogs in cold, damp climates (the educated view) or curses (the superstitious view). At any rate, as Jorah does not have the disease on his hand yet, and as he has no humor of any sort (*rim-shot!*), they should be fine.
Okay, I sincerely hope that HBO/D&D&Cogman sever all ties with Elio and Linda over at westeros.org. Every year so far those two got special treatment: advanced screeners, invitations to fancy premiere parties, they were special “expert contributors” on Thronecast on Sky Atlantic, they had direct contact with Bryan Cogman (for a time at least), probably got all kinds of free merchandise, etc. All this time they were treated with utmost respect by the show production, frankly as it befits people who, like ’em or no, are important part of the living, breathing ASoIaF fandom.
And how do they repay this respect and kindness? Whatever their feelings regarding the show may be, and not in any way disputing their right to dislike or hate GoT, I believe that the following tweets betray a level of unimaginable scuminess and trashdom:
But now Dumb & Dumber has done it for sure.
Alternatively, they are as stupid as I have suspected.
There aren’t enough misfortunes I could wish on them for doing this and they deserve all the hatred they will get.
….
I am utterly disgusted with them. So vile, base, and hateful. I’ll never forgive myself for giving them my own freaking money for their book.
Btw, isn’t it hilarious that Shireen made her first appearance in an episode called “Kissed by Fire”. lol.
I still like Stannis as a character, the same way I like Tywin and Littlefinger. But he has become this walking embodiment of a meme, with a frat-like fan base who actually believes he is the hero of the story and that he would make a good king. I think sacrificing Shireen is in character, and I don’t believe it was an easy decision, or that it won’t effect him for the rest of his life. It is for this reason that I hope he doesn’t die in the next episode, because I want to see Stephen Dillane portray his struggle and eventual realization that burning his daughter was all for naught, and what a mistake it was.
Not only that, but she and Davos shared a giggle over the fate of Byron Swann: “Burnt to a crisp!”
WeirwoodTreeHugger,
Excellent commentary. Hizdahr’s statement about “what great thing has ever been accomplished without killing or cruelty” is worthy of separate discussion. It certainly made me pause when I first heard it.
Mr Fixit,
Seriously, who cares? The dogs bark, but the caravan goes on.
You forgot to add *opportunistic*.
Damn, you are going nasty on the dogs. Poor critters.
Today’s Linda twitter account provided the biggest meltdown in ASOIAF since Viserys received his golden crown
JTargs,
Spoiler cover please!?
Whoever it was in the last thread who thought the Dorne stuff, beyond just being lame, served no purpose in advancing the plot at all — well, maybe it still will.
He used a e-raven from the safety of Winterfell to trigger the fires in Stanniss camp.
p.s.
Who the hell is the Harpy. That storyline (Mereen) has noone to contend for that character now.
Dont tell me that the SOTH are a spontaniously gatherd bunch of Dragon-haters? Really?
Simeon,
The SS actresses tend to exaggerate the epicness of their part in the show. Before the season started, Keisha Castle-Hughes said:
“If there’s one thing people are gonna remember coming out of season five, it’s gonna be Sand Snakes”.
Uhm, sure, but not the way she intented I suppose.
I think my reaction to the Shireen burning was similar to other people’s reaction to Sansa’s rape. I was so disturbed and depressed by the scene I initially reacted in anger, trying find some reason why this scene was wrong, think of some othee way that a just as dramatic storyline can be told without her death.
I’ve calmed down since yesterday and realized that the showrunners did nothing wrong. This is the most negative but believable consequence of Stannis’ character and his recently discovered fanatacism. It might be that this is just too dark for me, but I can’t deny how well crafted and powerful that scene was. Very mixed emotions right now about the scene.
Ena of Oldstones,
Since D&D actually wrote the episode, I very much doubt they think ambition is all he had in mind. His scene with Shireen talked a lot about his destiny, referring to the Long Night obviously. There’s more anchoring his decision than the Iron Throne, and D&D wrote it in the script.
I will say, this last episode means the “I want to kill Stannis” gun they randomly hung on Brienne’s mantel at the beginning of the season makes a hell of a lot more sense.
Simeon,
I know, but I still can’t believe that they (she, really) can be so vicious and vile toward the guys who’ve done them no ill, and thanks to whom more people than ever read the books and enjoy Martin’s world.
Not debating the epicness of it, just that there is still more to Dorne before we can fully evaluate whether it had a point or not.
Mr Fixit,
Seriously. Their purism.may be annoying, but it’s the vitriolic personal attacks that disgust me. They represent the worst that fandom.has to offer, and it’s sad to see them regularly elevated for their know-how. There are plenty of other more deserving members of the fandom, I’m sure.
Simeon,
Oh sure, sure. I expect Doran to reveal his real plan, which will no doubt involve the Sand Snakes.
That is a good point. Though I generally do like sci-fi and fantasy stuff, I only picked up Martin’s books because of the series. After binge-watching season 1, I got all of the books and finished them before (and during) season 2. Heck, I even got their book, and I really don’t regret it, because it has some excellent stuff in it.
Dutch maester,
Now that’s some expert foreshadowing! 😉
Moe the nonbeliever,
This season made Stannis look far more sympathetic and human than the books ever did, until that last scene. Both D&D and Dillane aced it.
i so hope now that the lord of light is going to turn on melisandre/stannis, regarding that as a sacrifice too far.
Cos y’know, he could be like ‘guys, that was a test, you failed. enjoy your truly miserable lives.’
and also, shireen turning into a dragon or something. Like ‘hey daddy… BUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRNNNNNN’ (I imagine Shireen would love being a dragon!)
Also: the dornish are surely up to something? Doran seemed to be too cool about everything. I wouldn’t be surprised if its a ‘we don’t hurt girls in dorne… but once she’s over the border, she’s not even one of ours anyway.’ Bronn and Jamie got off super light.
Skipjack,
Well i guess you are never watching again,because at this point i doubt a future book will ever come out no matter what Martin or his editors try to say .
Ena of Oldstones,
That was because half of his army was made of Northmen who wouldnt appreciate burnings at all. If he loses them, he loses the battle.
Disclaimer: I read the books and I love them.
I understand that a little, innocent kid being burned alive by her parents is shocking, but aside from the idea itself, the scene didn’t come close to giving me a Red Wedding vibe. I teared up for Cat when she cried in agony. Roose’ delivery of ”The Lannisters send their regards” was perfect, and the whole scene was a masterpiece and probably one of the most memorable moments of TV. I get that people tend to have knee-jerk reactions, but Shireen’s burning is not even in the same ball park.
I also think that it wrongly overshadows the best scene of this episode: the pit. I was half expecting it to be really cheesy, but it wasn’t. Sure, it wasn’t as amazing as our imagination made it while we read the latest book, but that’s always to be expected. To answer what someone else said previously, about how the Hardhome ending was better… Well, yea, that’s simply because not even us book readers knew this was coming. When you don’t have any expectations, you are more likely to take a scene for what it is worth and not endlessly compare it to the source material; which, it seems, a lot of people are doing with the Daznak’s pit sequence.
Seriously, cheer up people, we got an amazing finale coming up! I can’t wait to see who will stand next to Qyburn *wink* *wink* 🙂
Why not? The Sons of the Harpy will continue to operate with or without a leader. They’re an underground rebel movement that’s opposing a foreign, cruel occupation; they’re never gonna run out of steam.
What I’m more shocked about is how ambiguous and poorly explained they are in the show. The SOTH are an anti-freedman, anti-Daenerys group made up mostly of the Meereenese middle class with the secret backing of the upper classes.. so why the hell were they stabbing everyone left and right in the coliseum? They were stabbing people who looked pretty rich, and poor, and even killed Hizdahr himself. Which is doubly confusing because Hizdahr was almost 100% revealed to be working with them this episode. He came in late with the excuse of “checking on things”, and when he saw that Dany was being protected, he offered to take her out himself — an obvious damn trap. He was also much more confrontational and arrogant towards her before they showed up.
I think the Meereen storyline could have benefited from a couple more characters. Maybe the Shavepate and the Green Grace. They stripped that storyline down to the bones this season; the opposite extreme from ADWD.
I really have no idea what’s going to happen in Meereen now. It’s an even bigger mystery than it is in the books, cause at least we know what’s happening there.
Why does there even have to be a “Harpy” at all? I never understood why people placed so much emphasis on this figure, coming up with all kinds of crazy theories when it could just as easily be a random noble, or even a group of nobles calling the shots.
It matters even less in the show now since Hizdahr is out. They’re just a rabble of disgruntled nobles who want to take down Dany and restore power to the noble families of Meereen. Crazy conspiracy theories need not apply.
mariamb,
Thanks!
In a democracy great things can be accomplished without cruelty. But monarchy is inherently violent. So Hiz. was absolutely right.
I’ve seen some complaints that it was jarring to have Shireen’s burning and the uplifting Drogon flying escape scene so close to each other, but I guess I see it differently. I think it was done purposely to tell the audience that we should be careful what we wish for. Conquering with dragons is going to have consequences and be horrific.
Some people think D&D are just pulling things out of their asses and not thinking about what they write, but I disagree.
Renly’s Peach,
Ok fair enough .. but that can be apllied as an answer related to the books, but is in NO WAY tv show material solution.
actually it took two episodes for Bronn to sing the song, which only makes the pun even better IMO.
Mr Fixit,
That is just unmitigated hate on their part I hope HBO severs all ties with them those two have been irrationally obnoxious about the show for a while now
It was on purpose, but I feel that it was to tell the audience that there is a difference between sacrificing your own daughter to fulfill YOUR destiny and become King according to some strange “prophecy” that some religious fanatic whispers in your ear, and abandoning the city you ruled and everyone else, in order to save your dragon “child” who was going to stay there faithful to you and eventually get killed. The life of one vs. your destiny as monarch and the realm.
Hoyti Von Totiy,
Again, why not? Like I said, the Harpies are even LESS explained in the show. In fact, I don’t even remember them ever saying anything about there being a leader behind them. I don’t remember anyone talking about “the Harpy.”
I think they purposely left out all the suspects from the books because that entire theme was dropped. There doesn’t need to be a leader behind them. I’m sure they’re being organized by someone (like they most certainly are in the book), but that’s not important. Their “leader” can be anyone.
Actually all of you are wrong. There is no debate whether stannis intentions are selfish or not. It was made 100% clear in the show(like many, many times) that he only do it all for selfless reasons. You just have to watch season 2-5 and you will see that stannis doesn’t really want to be king…. but he is the last hope for the realm, for entire westeros. He is the chosen one. He is Azor ahai. It is his duty, he has to fulfill his destiny . He is the mission to save the westeros. Everything he’s doing is doing for the greater good. At least in his head.
I don’t think they really need an explanation beyond “insurgent group” really. Looking for the Harpy among Dany’s advisers is a bit like looking for the leader of ISIS in the Presidential Cabinet.
It’s the kind of thing that really only ever makes sense on TV, but that doesn’t mean it’s a necessity for a television show.
Yes. I am having a laugh.
I missed this interchange until I turned on the closed-captioning.
Tyrell: Did you know that at one point Maegor III tried to outlaw [lending money] in the Seven Kingdoms? Wanted to arrest anyone caught charging interest and cut off both their hands.
Mycroft/Tycho: Most unfortunate for the glovers.
We have loads of songs we’re told about in the series, but I don’t think any come close to describing these words. It might be worth mentioning that nicknames for Arya include Salty and Cat of the Canals.
Credit to all the actors on Team Dragonstone – probably the strongest group of actors on the show. The scene definitely communicated the emotion it intended.
I’m sure something similar will occur in the books, with or without Stannis’ consent, but the sacrifice seems wasted at this point in the story. He flipped way too fast between Episodes 7 and 9, and we didn’t even get a scene where Mel sold him on the “greater good.” It’s just hard to believe he’d play the trump card of burning his only child just so the weather might warm up a little. And that it was forced by Ramsay’s unrealistically perfect attack was also silly.
If he sacrifices his daughter thinking it will halt a white walker attack or in the face of 3 dragons about to lay waste to his army, that would be a lot more believable and compelling.
Seems like that’s the way George might do it, but if so, I’d think D&D would hold of the sacrifice for such a moment. Who knows? Maybe they felt they needed something really compelling in the Stannis arc this season, especially as it seems like they might be delaying the Battle of Wintefell until 6, and so that’s why they moved it forward. Or, perhaps Stannis will be dead soon, and it’s Mel who burns Shireen in the books once he’s gone, but they wanted to give Stannis more ownership of the act so that his demise will be even more tragic.
Not happy about it but willing to see where the story goes in the show and the books.
Well done, thanks for posting this! I suppose they made it up for the show.
Well, having them kill Tommen and making Myrcella Queen would seem to be the most logical way for “gold will be their crowns and gold their shrouds” prophecy come true. (I’m sure something will threaten/kill Myrcella later.
And did anyone else have a problem with Dany flying off and WILLINGY leaving her firends behind AFTER that warm “were dead” handhold with Missandrei?
In the books she didnt have control over the dragon but here she just orders him to fly and leaves …lol?
Whoever this Linda person is — and sorry to say, I had never heard of her before today — if she gets any benefits from HBO for commenting on this show, those should end.
The “retarded” insults alone she throws at people on Twitter should be enough. What a hateful, vile person.
Renly’s Peach,
I think maybe, just maybe…Hizdahr was just actually checking on things.
And if you’re an anti-Dany terrorist group, you absolutely kill the “traitor” who is engaged to the woman you hate so much.
I didn’t see specifically who else was in that crowd who they killed, but I can see a violent, radical grpup having a “you’re either with us or against us” attitude. Masters, even anti-Danites, who don’t join in on the violent uprising can easily be seen as the enemy to radicals.
Well, I’m just a reader of the books and a watcher of the series. I can only offer my opinion based on what I’ve been delivered so far. Stannis appears to be no different than the Mad King with his ambition. It appears that Davos is going to have to have a Jamie moment in the future if our three writers are on the same track with Shireen’s story. Davos appears to be closing in on a Kingslayer title.
Hopefully at the next major sporting event the Queen attends, they check people at the door for blades and little golden masks.
jentario,
I was referring to what they said about Stannis in the Inside the episode video.
Hoyti Von Totiy,
No. I rewatched the scene (multiple times, of course) and it is quite visible most of the SotH are now dead or have fled, and in one of the shots of the group you can see they are surrounded by Unsullied warriors (plus there’s Daario and Jorah). So it is justified IMO. She leaves to prevent further destruction, as Drogon is indiscriminately killing people (he burns Unsullied as well if you look closely). This way, she actually protects them.
2222,
I agree with you about his motivation. From what D&D said, they do not: “It’s obviously the hardest choice he’s ever made in his life and for Stannis it comes down to ambition versus familial love and for Stannis sadly that choice is ambition.”
They talk about ambition. I understand it as his ambition to win the throne, not his belief that he is Azor Ahai or his willingness to do anything it takes for the greater good.
Hodor Targaryen,
I’m still not convinced he’s dead. I thought those stabs were a little weak, myself.
jentario,
True. But did he think about what this burning would do to morale? Will these men fight for him after what they’ve seen? They are not followers of R’hllor and what they saw was a guy burning his own child at the stake.
Her twitter account is paranoid scary stuff, i cannot belive GRRM would affiliate himself with such weirdos.
She has a problem with this spoiler ? Like in 2 years from now we will know how it all ends and the last book will still be 7 years away …
Arya Havin’ a Larf?,
The Long Canal is in Braavos, as I thought it would be, but I can find no song in canon that should be set in Braavos. So yes, I think they made it up for the show.
Wow, this is just an episode like none other. I was just screaming like the whole second half: at Stannis, to save Shireen, for Jorah, for Dany, everything was flawlessly done. My neighbors must think I’m insane, I think I was yeling NO at the top of my lungs when Melisandre was lighting the pyre.
I did watch the interview with David and Dan after the episode which implied that Stannis WILL sacrifice Shireen in the books, as per GRRMs plan, which is the only reason I’m not putting a hit out on them right now. I was totally shocked they burned her. Stephen Dillane was amazing, Kerry Ingram will be missed as a bright spot in a very dark storyline. I will come down saying I do think it is consistent with his character, and that it’s more dramatic in the show because they portray Stannis as a caring father and Kerry Ingram is so fantastic that we all love Shireen. I’m curious to read it in TWOW how it plays out and who will be the POV for it, possibly Theon?
The Daznak’s pit scene was just as big and well done as I expected, but Drogon was even better, and Jorah fighting for Dany was much more emotional than I anticipated. Iain Glen is just a glutton for punishment doing all his stunts himself, what a badass older gent! I fully approve of this change of plot from ADWD to bring Tyrion in early and have Jorah fighting for Dany, it’s just a magnificently efficient and emotionally effective switch. As much as I’m sad I’ll never see it as it was in the books, with Ser Barristan, and Dany grabbing the whip, I really enjoyed this version. Drogon was amazing, effects-wise, and Emilia Clarke nailed it, as did Peter Dinklage. Wow. I thought it was going to be awesome but it was even better! And now we know in ADWD how wrong Ser Barristan gets the whole thing, trusting the wrong people and accusing Hizdahr- I always thought it would be too obvious that he was behind it, that he was innocent and this supports that.
Jaime was back, finally, but not much to work with. I loved Alexander Siddig as Doran being strong, I’m really glad Doran finally got some screen time, a small bit of redemption for an underwhelming Dornish fiasco.
Hoping the SS interview means we get
Cannot WAIT for Cersei! Seriously, Lena Headey will nail it I’m sure.
#EmmyForLena2015!!!
And Arya will get her kill I should think- one less name on the list, fingers crossed for needle to appear! I love Ian Beattie and I’m sad he won’t be back, but he is doing a great job making me hate him (as always) in that brothel scene.
No comment on FTW- I will be unsurprised either way if it happens or it doesn’t. Just hoping we get some ghost in there. I’m guessing Sam will leave for Oldtown/Reach with Gilly also?
SANSA!!! GET IT GIRL!!!!!! REVENGE!
Ditto on Brienne!
Hoyti Von Totiy,
Bahahahah just went on Twitter to check these people out
Geez. Someone needs to take a chill pill hahaha
Hodor Targaryen,
Maybe. We just have very little info about anything that’s happening in that plotline. Like I said, Meereen could have benefited from some fleshing out. This season’s felt more rushed than any before, which comes from cramming two and a half books together.
One more problem… Drogon is supposed to be the the biggest dragon since he has been free this whole time but i swear i got the impression that he is the same size as the 2 chaiend up dragons, perhaps even a bit smaller then Rheagal.
Wow.
There should be a comments thread for UK viewers as we are a whole 24 hours behind!
Firstly a man should say when he was wrong. I said there was NO chance of them burning Shireen alive. Wow, I was completely and utterly wrong. That was horrible. And I think a very bad error. Not even because of any morality / lack of entertainment issues etc. (although really, who on earth wants to watch that?), but because it seriously takes any wind out of the sails of the Winterfell storyline. Who wins? Who the heck cares. Both immoral bastards. No one the viewer can support – so really, why should we invest in the story?
For the first time I am fed up with Game of Thrones. I am feeling just as Andy Greenwald did with the Sansa episode – I feel there is a nihilism which is starting to become overwhelming.
Hodor Targaryen,
Why do you guy’s keep saying “they” when talking about Linda. Elio may be critical of the show but he is at least respectful about it and never hostile or hateful towards the production.
Doesn’t strike me as very likely. The show doesn’t like to talk about it, but Davos has a wife and kids.
Deesensfan,
If you really want to acquaint yourself with her, take a peek.
http://thestarkalypse.tumblr.com/post/38793074715/get-your-cunt-stained-fingers-off-my-mush-the
Enjoy.
Ross,
Did you watch the Inside the Episode yet? Shireen burning is a book scene that George told David and Dan about.
Hoyti Von Totiy,
Yeah, I was thinking about that. I’d need to go back and re-watch, but I think it might be at least partly down to scenery. Two dragons chained up in shadows in a very enclosed space and shot from eye level are naturally going to look bigger than one shot mostly from above in a large, open, well-lit space.
Can’t be sure, but it’s at least possible the appearance is largely down to environment. We’d have to check against their relative size next to people in different shots.
If Stannis is GRRM’s Agamemnon, does this mean that Stannis will triumph in the end of the series, but it will only be a pyrrhic victory? Given GRRM’s sliding gray scale of characters, this is starting to appear quite plausible.
Ena of Oldstones,
I really hope that his followers will desert him but I don’t know that they will. On a rewatch, I devoted special attention to judging their reactions and nobody honestly seemed that bothered. One dude made a nasty face once – other than that, everyone just seemed to stare at her with mild interest.
JTargs,
Damn those extras! Next time they should get only half a sandwich for their trouble.
She left with Drogon to protect those who were still there, AND to protect him. He is her child in her eyes. They were still throwing spears. I would have done the same thing.
I was hoping the other two would get so agitated that they would break their chains and come flying out, too. I’m curious to see how they will be freed now.
JTargs,
I’m about to watch it. But I’m not sure it will make it any better – the show scene throws Stannis under the bus in a way which the books surely cannot because they’re not even together? I can just about buy Mel doing it on her own accord (although I’d still be heartbroken for Shireen), but Stannis sacrificing his daughter, his one and only heir…. no… bonkers. Why do I hope he wins Winterfell now? Who cares?
For what? I don’t need to put a spoiler cover on my thoughts about last night’s episode… If you meant the previous post, there is a spoiler cover over the entire thing, so…
Dolorous Methuselah,
That’s my guess as well. Myrcella will be crowned until Dany shows up. Then she will be dispensed with and Trystane will marry her keeping the Martells on the throne.
JTargs,
Well, they’re not really followers to begin with. If they are indeed clansmen of the North, they should be outspoken, loud and unruly about the whole thing. Queen’s Men are of course another matter.
At this point I would assume the effect on morale will be entirely in Stannis favor. The next on seems to confirm that the Lord of Light sends some form of help. Stannis men just witnessed an inhuman act of devotion and faith that then turns out to actually save them all from certain death and maybe even leads them to some kind of victory. How could they have any doubt in that foreign deity after that? I can imagine some form of mass conversion depending on how clear the Lord of Lights sign is.
I can only hope R’hllor has a special place for Shireen in his heaven, or whatever the fuck it is. If not, then R’hllor definitely wins the award for being the biggest douche.
It IS about the throne for him, though. If he were about fighting the existential threat, he’d be at the wall. He went South to Winterfell in pursuit of the throne.
Untrue: what Stannis did followed his morality to the letter. Now, it might not be your morality: but that’s another issue!
Shipp,
He needs all the armies of Westeros to fight the White Walkers, obtaining the throne would be the only way to achieve that.
I thought the episode was horrible at first except for the last 30 seconds, but upon furher reflection that was mainly due to me being in a bad mood about Shireen’s burning being spoiled for me. Knowing that it might happen in TWOW helped soften the blow (spoilers cure spoilers I guess). I wish I could have felt the actual emotional blow of just seeing it and trying to process it from there. Many observers, Sullied and unsullied, noticed the effort to make the viewer like Stannis and assumed that like others before him (Ned, Robb, Oberyn) he was doomed. No! They made us like him so we can hate him again.
Speaking of TWOW, interesting that some elements of the preview chapters are being worked into Arya’s storyline. The writers are doing a great job combing all the different AFFC, DWD and TWOW material.
Too bad the same couldn’t be said about the Dorne adaptation. All the flaws in that are attributed to the writing.
And as for the pit scene…fire and blood indeed! Liked the multicultural showdown with the Mereenese, Westori, Dothraki, Hotah-style Navosi (?), Bravossi and the Shirtless Dude (Shirtlessi?). Skeptical of Jorah being brought back into the fold, but we will see how it goes in S6. The chaos of it made sense in a certain way (Sons of Harpy killing “treacherous” nobles along with freed slaves, Drogon burning Harpies, Unsullied and innocents indiscriminately, etc).
Just gonna copy this comment here from the Guardian recap by Woof73, obviously written from Staanis’ point of view in all of this. It’s quite brilliant:
Okay. Hear me out…
Let’s start with Davos. Davos didn’t save her. Davos, my conscience, my moral compass, and the man I go to when I want my explicit instructions disobeyed. I gave him that chance. He could have ridden out with her under his cloak, none of the men would have interfered. It wasn’t fear of retribution that stayed his hand, nor was it fear of Melisandre. He was not concerned with the cold, the journey or the situation at Castle Black. He does not trust the magic, has no faith in the gods and while he supports me, he is no blind follower. Something else stopped him.
Who is expendable, when you’re king? Soldiers, I guess, to an extent. Poor ones, certainly, those that don’t do their job and get others killed. But if I hang a few because they caused the death of several, then clearly not all of them are expendable. Those idiots that fell asleep at their posts have forced my hand (assuming it was them responsible for the sudden outbreak of fires around my camp, I mean it’s not like there’s anyone else around here who is good at fires or has an agenda or was communing with their fire god at the exact moment it happened). Without those losses, I could have pushed on and maybe taken Winterfell without magic. But now, there’s no choice at all. Either my daughter dies, and we win with magic, or we all die before we can make the attempt and everything will have been for nothing. This was the choice I faced. This was the choice I shared with Davos. Evidently, we came to the same conclusion.
Another man might try to justify himself. They might tell themselves it was a kindness. That this will save thousands of lives. Say I go on to win, become the One True King at last. I’d only have to send her away, marry her off at some point. Would that moment feel any worse? A sweet, disfigured girl in the hands of some nameless, arrogant prince from somewhere I don’t trust? Ask Sansa Stark, ask Cersei what that’s like. Shireen was a pawn in this game from the start, only one that I have chosen to sacrifice before she had the chance to become a queen. The truth is, everyone’s expendable.
Damn me if you will. Perhaps you have forgotten the time I assassinated my brother, the thousands who died at the Blackwater and the other members of my family that I have put to the torch. I consider the most evil woman in Westeros my close ally and I have done something so awful, even my demented wife could not bear it. I damned myself years ago. When… when I win, there will be no smiles and no celebration. There will be no glorious coronation. It will be what it supposed to be, namely the line of succession continuing as it should, and a King ruling, not for glory, riches or even because I want to, but because it is my duty. And if you still think me a monster, then take solace from this: when I die, there is presently no one left to take up arms to fight my claim. One spoke less in the great wheel.
King Stannis Baratheon, last of his name*
* Don’t even say it, he doesn’t count. Or him.
I wonder how Davos will learn about Shireen? He either returns to Stannis’s camp, is perhaps followed and informed by someone who was there, or hears about it via letter.
The latter would make the most sense IMHO. It could be part of a show variation of the Pink Letter, as it’s entirely feasible to me that Ramsay (yes, I believe he is the author) and his gang might’ve still been scouting and witnessed the burning.
I got a kick out of how you worded that. Isn’t chaos beautiful? Amazing how this season (predictably!) has caused the fandom to shift and morph into very distinct groups, with equal amounts of passion and obnoxious pseudo-abuse. Elio and Linda definitely are defending their encyclopedic ASoI&F turf with the whites of their eyes blazing!
——-
Btw, has anyone wondered what Brienne made of the whole Ramsay 20-man swat-team adventure? I assume that she witnessed their departure and has probably heard that an army is approaching. I wonder how soon she will connect the dots?
Only people with weird hangups around men with curly hair! 😀
Seriously, her followers did not seem to have any problem with it: they seem more worshipful than ever. (I think that I would have been: damn, the woman even can handle dragons…..)
Possibly not. If they were concerned that Stannis had spies or sympathizers in the area, then they would have tried to steal out unseen. It is their home turf (now), so it wouldn’t be that hard.
Similarly, stealing into the camp would not have been as hard as people make it out to be, particularly if they captured and flayed some camp members for passwords, etc. Moreover, after being stuck in the snow doing nothing for some period of time, discipline would be lax and moral low (inactivity is a bad thing for armies), so it would have been all the easier.
However, the synchronized fires would be tough to pull off! Maybe the Boltons had developed time lapsed fuses without telling anyone…. 😉 (Seriously, I’ll wave that off as dramatic effect.)
I do wonder if Melisandre saw it and opted not to act in order to force Stannis to do something. Alternatively, she might not have seen it until moments before: I suppose that seeing fire in flames might not be completely obvious.
And what Ramsay does follows his morality to the letter. Does that make that OK?
I think it’s fair to say that most people – whether in this world or the fictional world of Westeros – would have slight moral issues with burning their own children alive.
Morality is a societal code, not a personal one.
Yes! Big Mel fail, imho!! Useless tramp.
Actually, Ramsay is a psychopath: and they don’t have any moralities.
As for it being OK, I never think that morality is OK: when morality is ethical, then it is by chance only.
The moral issue is “burning vs. not burning my child.” The moral issue is doing whatever is necessary to unite the 7 Kingdoms and defeat the great evil Other. Failing to do that is a failure of duty, and thus dishonorable (= immoral). You can say “not to me”: but Stannis would consider you dishonorable (and immoral) for not being willing to make the personal sacrifice necessary to save the world.
OMG, this YouTube video is priceless!
This guy has been flying the Stannis Banner since season one! I like his videos because he’s smart and a little hood, which is a cool combination. He is very logical and lots of times pointed out things to me about Stannis that really got me to respect Stannis.
Anyways, this is how I thought most Stannis bannermen would react…
Just skip to the 8min mark when he starts talking about the scene of when Stannis goes into her tent. It’s fucking classic.
Stannis is done, he will have no fans and in his own imaginary world of Westeros he will slowly lose any real support from all those under him.
heh, true!
Although there is a nastier possibility: R’Hllor itself might not have shown it to her clearly or in time to do anything. Whatever R’Hllor is, I don’t think it would get confused with Bacchus anytime soon!
All morality is ethical. Ethics IS morality.
Says who? Who’s right is it to have an ethical code or not? Ultimately even a psychopath will have a guiding line that will say what is right and wrong in his eyes. And if you’re right, then who DOES governs morals / ethics if not wider society? And if that’s the case, then Stannis was certainly wrong by those standards.
Yes. Exactly. That’s the moral issue.
*deep breath*
FOR THE LOVE OF FUCK AND THE SEVEN HELLS, JORAH IS NOT PASSING ON GREYSCALE THROUGH THE TOUCH OF HIS UN-FUCKING-INFECTED FUCKING HAND!
Gods, people. He keeps saving main characters’ lives, he’s hardly gonna be carelessly bandying about with that shit. Yeesh.
*retreats to she-bear cave*
Joke is on him, then as the only army anywhere near the throne is The Faith Militant, and they are never going to follow an adherent of the Red God.
Jom
If GRRM has a code, it’s that kinslayers are not rewarded. Stannis killed his brother and now his daughter, I suspect he won’t even get to enjoy a bittersweet moment on the throne, he will never reach it. I am not anti-Stannis by any means, but he’s backing the wrong horse here, Melisandre is misinterpreting her visions, and while Stannis believes, I’m sure, that this is the only way, he’s abandoning what he knows is morally right for something he believes is his destiny (thus right-er). I think this is consistent with his rigid world view, and is exactly why he needs Davos around to provide a conscience and some common sense.
Absolutely not. You are not even using the same parts of your brain for the two. Ethics is based on thinking. Fundamentally, ethics is based on two principles: 1) your right to swing your fist ends at someone else’s nose, and, 2) if you see a second party putting his/her fist in a third party’s nose, then you should help the third party.
Morality is based on beliefs. All moralities have one thing in common: the maximize the fitness of the societal heads of that region. So, whether polygamy is moral or immoral varies; whether cannibalism is moral or immoral varies; whether adultery is moral or immoral varies; whether eating meat X is moral or moral varies. Moreover, the degrees to which two peoples view the same “immoral” act as immoral (slap on the wrist vs. cutting off the wrist vs. cutting off the head) varies. This is why there is no universal morality. (Humans also use a part of their brain that is no better developed than in chimps when they refer to morals, where as they use the part of the brain that is uniquely large in humans when they refer to ethics: one is trained instinct whereas the other requires actually thinking.)
That is part of the definition, and what distinguishes pyschopaths from sociopaths. Sociopaths are much easier for law enforcement to predict because they usually follow some weird set of beliefs that, once understood, makes them predictable. Psychopaths act randomly. They revel in cruelty not because they think it’s right, but because they lack any sense of right/wrong AND they are misconfigured to enjoy that. But their targets and modes of operation will vary from victim to victim.
To you. To Stannis, it is doing what he has to do to win the Iron Throne and save humanity. And this is why Stannis would be such an awful king. He is a moral absolutist. It is absolutely wrong for him to not do everything in his power to unite the 7 Kingdoms and defeat the great wrong. That means he has zero flexibility.
Now, I realize that the only thing that you care about in this issue is your moral code: but the only thing in the world that Stannis Baratheon cares about is his moral code.
Arthur,
Oh my gods, so true. Funny. Thanks for sharing.
I think you put yourself in Stannis’ shoes for a second too long there, Wimsey! you type and reason almost like the man. However, Stannis sending Davos away, begs the question why would he do that if he truly believes he’s doing the honorable/moral thing in that situation. There’s something inherently wrong in that decision and I believe he knows it.
I don’t think it is his moral compass that’s answering the question “should I or should I not sacrifice my daughter”, “is it the right or the wrong thing to do?” I think it is really his blind fatality that he’s supposed to be a certain person and the stubbornness to surrender everything in order to fulfill that “destiny”. I could be wrong but his little speech to his daughter about choosing sides, choosing to be true to yourself being in fact no choice at all kind of proves that point.
TL;DR he’s kind of a murdering dick with delusions of grandeur, thinking fate picked him for something special. He also loved Shireen. Just not enough. That makes for a horrible father.
That is, indeed, Davos’ job. Stannis is completely inflexible in his values. He’s like a man who must walk straight ahead regardless of the obstacles or the damage that he does when doing so. Davos’ life is spent moving the obstacles out of the way so that Stannis doesn’t crush them or hurt himself.
But that is also what makes Davos fun. Most of the characters have moral dilemmas from their own; Davos’ moral dilemmas are reconciling Stannis with reality.
Hodor’s Bastard,
Will she connect the dots? I wouldn’t hold my breath. Brienne is a little rigid and not terribly observant. I’m sure that she was still watching that window in WF rather than the 20 crazed men running around setting tents on fire. I have more faith in Pod.
Jaime’s girl,
But don’t you think that Davos will be done with Stannis once he learns about Shireen? I imagine that he will fulfill his current commitment and move on…
Seriously! I mean it seemed obvious to me at the time that the reason that he said “don’t let them touch you” to Tyrion was because those poor stonemen bastards were covered from head to toe with diseased flesh.
Jorah still only has like a 2 inch patch covered with cloth/arm guards. He certainly don’t have any on his fingers/palm which were all Dany was touching (which, btw, “awww”).
I think we’re good.
Oman,
I was so curious to see how the only real diehard Stannis supporter I’ve followed would react and this guy is my number 1 go to, all things Stannis related guy…
For FIVE years!
And he said it beautifully, his last 8min speech is beautiful and I think pretty much can sum up every FORMER Stannis supporters reaction .
Understanding a thing is not the same as empathizing with a thing by any means. I understand why people like Stannis operate the way they do. However, I’m a ethical person, not a moral one: so I never could be in Stannis’ position.
Pigeon,
If Jorah thought he was contagious, he would exile himself.
I am so glad that Stannis’ hubris finally came to fruition. It’s been so hard to explain to StanStans (both Sullied and Unsullied) why their high regard for this character is blinded, especially when they trash Dany. Letting his daughter die for the sake of his ambitions is completely withing character.
The term ‘one and only heir’ gets brought up a lot as a reason Stannis shouldn’t have burned his daughter, but surely in this sort of ‘verse it would be fairly common for kings/nobles to put aside their ‘barren’ wives and remarry in order to beget new heirs. I think Selyse even suggested it a few seasons ago. Stannis has plenty of options in that regard. Including legitimising and naming Gendry as his heir if he resurfaces.
As for the morale of the soldiers – they were already at an all time low. They were stuck in blizzard conditions, low on food, freezing to death, sick, and miserable. Then their supplies were destroyed and men killed (possibly burned) in an night-time sneak attack. Then we have Stannis ordering the unlucky guards to be hanged. Sacrificing one child to Rh’llor to improve their situation probably wouldn’t seem that big a deal. Especially since none of them had the benefit (like we viewers did) of knowing what a truly wonderful child Shireen was. She was usually kept locked away from the public, and I presume most of the soldiers would view her much like Tyrion was viewed: as an ugly abomination, someone tainted and probably best shunned. Selyse’s attitude was likely the norm. Which makes Davos’ open affection for her stand out even more. I do think Stannis loved Shireen as much as he was capable of. But he also believed her sacrifice was a necessary evil in order to achieve victory.
Wimsey,
Don’t be so righteous Wimsey, it was not an attack on your person, you explained yourself perfectly in the end (last part where you said that it was what Stannis would consider immoral). It was this part (the first) that sounded EXACTLY like Stannis would, and why my comment said for a second too long!
Agreed! And I am curious how he will handle this one…
Pigeon,
….but…but…he was bleeding.
(**hiding under desk**)
Where is Moqorro when you need him, dammit?
—–
OT: USA vs Aussies at the Women’s WC tonight!
Ozzy Man, if you are scanning these posts, better have tissues in hand. You’ll have more than Shireen to weep about in a few hours!
Tormund’s Woman,
Sorry, I was unclear: I should have typed that this is the moral issue from Stannis’ point of view.
And I apologize if I came off a little peevish: I just wanted to make it clear that I was putting myself in Stannis’ head, not his shoes! (Stannis’ morality is more repugnant to me than are most moralities: but I’ve been team not-Stannis for 18 years!)
Yeah exactly, I am concerned for Team Dragonstone after this brutal move by Stannis.
Perhaps
Hodor’s Bastard,
True, but I don’t think it is passed on that way. Actually I have no clue, but I’m assuming he’d have lopped off his head by now before chancing it. *flails Kermit arms*
Wimsey,
In his head, not his shoes! That made me laugh, Wimsey.
(It did look like you were in his shoes, for the better part of the paragraph, but now we know you’ll not be caught dead trying to sit the Iron Throne :p)
I like Stannis. Well, I like his story and character. I liked him before but feel nothing but pity.
But I like his story. He’s basically Macbeth. He has the most interesting and complex plot. Though I do want him to come to see the errors of his way. But, it will be the end of him if that happens.
Well, it was a good episode but still not sure how to feel about some things.
Dorne got better this week thanks to the Sand Snakes , for the most part, being kept out of the way (they really are just cartoon characters now…unfunny ones at that). Doran, Ellaria and Jaime made the scenes watchable although I expected a bit more sass from Jaime which he seems to have lost a bit this season. May be because they’re trying to make the Dornish characters look stronger but still. I do worry that they’re going to go for a big ending in Dorne which will mean the end of Bronn and/or Myrcella. If D&D really lose their minds then Jaime could go which really would be a show breaker for me.
Arya’s storyline is ticking along nicely. Poor a bit of blatant peado on Trant to make his even less likeable! Her story seems to get a lot of time compared to some of the others and they did use it well this week.
At the Wall…well pretty much nothing major happened except setting up for the “internet-breaker” next week.
And so to Stannis. Can’t say I liked the burning but then again I wasn’t meant to. Not sure if this is the right way to go with the Stannis character at this point. If we’re going to see a big dust up between Stannis and the Boltons, why do we care who wins? They’re both now on the hate list of most viewers and there’s always higher interest when you have a horse in the race. Stannis is still one of the most interesting characters in the series but for reasons that are different to what they should have been. I’m also wondering how Davos will play into this as he’s not going to be happy. Also struggling to see how Mel is going to be at the Wall for …you know…if she’s still with Stannis. Maybe Davos takes her place…somehow? Still think he’ll speak to Sam and find out about Rickon but who knows anymore.
Mereen was good…not only because of the action but there was some good dialogue (which is the thing this season has been missing a lot) as the fighting was underway. Hizadhr dying is a surprise. Makes you wonder if there is anyone behind the Harpies o whther they’ll leave them as a faceless threat. I think Mereen’s days are numbered. I think a combination of dragons and Dothraki will see it “return to dust” early next season.
But yeah, the last 3 episodes have made up for the earlier below par ones this season. Still think it’ll be remembered as the weakest season so far but a weak GoT season is still good.
Next week , I can see Stannis losing the battle and Mel abandoning him. Which would make Shireens sacrifice even more harder to take when it was for nothing. If they had to kill her could we not have at least got something cool like the rock or ice dragons that the book hinted at Mel wanting to summon.
I grew to like Stannis in the books but it was a long road. It was much easier for me to like Stannis in the show because of the brilliant Stephen Dillane. A masterful actor in a show full of talent. I look forward to Stannis’ inevitable end because Dillane will knock it out of the park. His face while watching his daughter burn will haunt me for a long time.
As much as Stannis needs to get comeuppance for his actions I really hope they don’t go down the obvious path of Brienne popping up to kill him in episode 10. Theres far too many better options for the downfall of Stannis than this and of all the characters in the show Brienne is the one that needs another big kill on her list the least. Have her help with Sansa escaping and leave it at that.
spacechampion,
I was worried that about that contact between Jorah and Dany. I hope that it is direct contact with the afflicted part of the body the one that gives grayscale, otherwise either Dany and/o Missandei are toasted. :o(
Lord of the Waters,
Me either. Brienne is just becoming character killer and hasn’t developed her own during the TV show.
I want Davos to get his hands on Mel!
Again, why is Daario not considered a suspect for The Harpy? I don’t think it’s true, but I don’t understand everyone saying, “There’s no one left who could be The Harpy!” All the bizarre theories around Daario, but that one is unthinkable? Hahahahaha. OK.
The thought also occurred to me that, while TV Stannis loves his daughter, he also has more faith in his ability and desire–ahem–to produce another heir, even if only for 15 murderous minutes. He may just want to get his dick wet, but I think the idea that a product of his loins could accomplish so much, to such terrible effect, truly thrills him.
I don’t think that played into his choice with Shireen–it seemed a stark choice of do this now or die. It was his “Abraham, O Abraham” moment; unfortunately, Mel reads her fires like an e-scam from a Nigerian prince or an astrological chart, misreading signs and vitally invested in how it must be true.
As far as why should anyone care about the battle of Winterfell after this–really? It is more than Stannis at stake in this, and I frankly find him much more interesting now that he’s crossed this line.
Hodor’s Bastard,
I’d like for someone to tie her to a stake and light the fire.
Davos, waiving what few digits he has left: Ooo, ooo! Me, pick me!!
Mr Fixit,
Ugh! That is absolutely disgusting behaviour. I mean, wake up guys! GOT and ASOIAF, they’re amazing stories, but aren’t the only things in life, it’s not worth getting an emotional breakdown over let alone wish anyone any kind of misfortune. I hope especially GRRM and his team sever ties with them regardless whether or not George disagrees with choices on the show because this is abhorrent and irresponsible as influential and established members of a community.
M,
What about the Starks’ rights to Winterfell? Stannis is attempting to restore their castle to them. He isn’t denying Sansa Winterfell because she isn’t useful to him, he’s denying her because to give it to her would mean giving it to Tyrion and thus the Lannisters. Remember that Robb himself makes the exact same argument when passing over Sansa in favor of Jon. I don’t see how Stannis can be blamed for opposing the Lannisters’ attempt to steal the castle.
Lol, the writer of this tumbler seems really obsessed with Linda! Really, not sure who is worse!, the serial killer or the creepy copycat!! XD
What’s an Oathkeeper to do? There’s definitely a chaotic convergence of vows in her immediate future!
Tormund’s Woman,
Now that you mention it, Wimsey’s personality strikes me as a lot like Stannis’s in many ways: very logical, detail oriented, intelligent, sensible, unwavering, and rarely emotional. But Wimsey wouldn’t subject himself to the Red Woman, methinks.
More thoughts regarding Stannis:
Many watchers of the show, whether Sullied, Unsullied or Casual But Awake, have noticed that this season Stannis has been cast in a more sympathetic light. Many have thought that this means his death is coming this season (Personally, I recommend Dave Damesheck of the NFL podcasts as someone who follows television trends and talks about them on his podcast secondarily to sports news…even he was aware of the “whitewashing” of Stannis and assumed that it meant his death was neigh), but now it is clear: D&D made him more sympathetic simply to make us hate him again and to make this scene all the more important.
What comes to mind is a quote from “Low Winter Sun”, the short-lived show that AMC hoped would fill the void in their schedule when Breaking Bad went of the air. I’m paraphrasing, but it went something like this: “People talk about morality like it’s black and white. Someone who is trying to sound smart at a party will say it’s shades of grey. But the truth is that it is a strobe.” Stannis, Tyrion, Dany; show or book, they all do both evil and good things as the moment requires.
Stannis loves his daughter. Even if his goal was to obtain the throne, he would not burn her because she is his heir. If is sole motivation was to gain the throne because it is his legal right and no other, it still would not justify the sacrifice. as the sins against kinslaying would factor in. But he believes his destiny is greater than that: he knows the true enemy (white walkers) and knows that he needs to unite the kingdoms against them, he knows he needs to be the king to do it, he knows (or at least knows that his wife and mistress beleive) that he is Azor Azzai reborn, and that as Azor had to sacrifice Nissa Nissa, he must sacrifice all to save humanity.
I’ve never been a Stannis fan, but that summarizes his morality I think.
And as a footnote, some people have been arguing about the definitions of morality. I’m not an ethical phiosopher, but my understanding is that ethics=social codes of conduct and that morality=personal codes of conduct. If anyone who knows more disagrees, feel free to correct me.
Mr Fixit,
Yep. They’re horrendous people the both of them; Linda’s just the “bad cop” of the two. Not only should HBO sever all official ties with them but so should GrrM. The fact that either of them can make money off of the ASOIAF brand whilst being so downright nasty and in Linda’s case openly racist, is beyond me. If GrrM isn’t aware of the awful shit she says, he should be because I doubt he’d approve in the slightest, given what I know about his personal politics. Someone should post her comments on his NotaBlog. I’d love to hear him denounce them and then see her grovelling to get back on his good side. 🙂
Why the social-justice-through-social-media crowd hasn’t caught wind of her antics and jumped on the same outrage train they do for the show every few weeks, I don’t know. Perhaps we all should help them out a bit in that regard… 😉
Because people as irresponsible with influence as they are don’t deserve any kind of attention. Fading away into forgetfulness is a more deserving treatment than adding fuel to their fire.
Mr Fixit,
I get being upset over possible spoilers (personally, I liked the confirmation because I like knowing it’s canon), but Linda’s crazy rants are beyond pathetic, and her unprofessional attitude is just insane. Throwing around insults, name-calling the showrunners, calling people “retards” and the C-word. I can’t believe GRRM hasn’t shut her up yet. What a truly pathetic individual.
This is why I will never buy her book, and have actually talked several fans out of buying it.
That’s all we need…GRRM to be further distracted by online flamewars. He’s got a theatre to run, you know! Geez!
Linda knows where the bodies are buried. No way in hell Martin casts her aside.
Pau,
I think that’s Bex, who’s a mod here. Honestly, when I first read that post (a while ago) I really appreciated the comprehensiveness of how awful Linda was. I always just assumed Linda was just a purist (and for that reason avoided her thoughts) but after reading that I learned that she is truly awful…and I think it’s worth bringing some public awareness to this person who is kinda sorta an official fandom representative.
Also, Linda has directed several personal attacks at her. Retaliating with the truth is perfectly appropriate in my mind.
Pau is very defensive when it comes to westeros.org.
Better not criticize Linda.
Stranger,
the Dragon was woken from stone in the first book and the dragon that woke was Dany
I find Elio very reasonable and professional, and I appreciate hearing his perspective even when I don’t agree. I agree with Linda less but I’m not going to talk poorly about her. They get a lot of criticism for being “purists,” but you have to understand that they are friends with the author. Of course they are more likely to be critical of the show vs. the book.
It’s the same as major sites and podcasts that have close connections to the show runners being a lot more diplomatic with criticisms of the show. You can’t fault anyone for that. That’s what grown-ups do.
People also just look for different things in a TV show. Someone might prefer a story that is more dialogue heavy and character driven and someone else might be looking for more action. Neither perspective is wrong. Just let people be with their opinions. I’m tired of seeing this fictitious divide between “book purists” and “show apologists” crop up on various forums.
I think more people are faulting her for being a caustic, vindictive twatswamp than being a “purist,” though her, uh, “purity” is completely detached from the reality of making an adaptation of anything ever.
She’d be a great politician, however.
LOL! But yes, exactly. It’s not her purism that’s being criticized here (although you could). It’s her extreme, unprofessional temper tantrums. I actually know children who behave better than her. What a complete embarrassment she is, to herself and GRRM by association.
I pity Elio.
No, I’m pretty much an atheist! I’m also republican in the traditional sense of the word (not the modern US sense).
Also, unlike Stannis, I have a sense of humor! Actually, that is something for which Dillane deserves major kudos. On the rare occasion when Stannis smiles, he manages to make it look like Stannis has no muscle memory for smiling. Most of us smile reflexively: he makes it look like he’s having to think about it.
But, again, this is not about agreeing or disagreeing with Stannis: it’s about understanding how he ticks. And those of us who understood how he ticks were not surprised by this. After all, Stannis is the perfect general, and generals throughout history have sacrificed small numbers of troops so that a larger number of troops could triumph later. Were those troops there own sons? Most of the time, no: but they were somebodies’ sons.
On a side note, Torchwood: Children of Earth wound up with a very similar outcome. In that, Captain Jack Harkness was trying to save the children of Earth from being harvested by an alien force for which something about human children’s minds was basically an opiate. In the end, he saved all but one by sacrificing one:
Linda seems like a hateful creature. I wouldn’t want to associate myself with someone like her if I were Senor Jorge.
Of course for all we know, George shares her opinions. I’ve wondered about that from time to time. He seems to be dissociating himself from the show more and more since Season 4, or that’s the vibe I’ve been getting anyway.
You are assuming that “King” Stannis lasts until Season 6. I am not so sure of that. Stannis is on his way to the same place where the greatest living warrior in Westeros is. And she has sworn to kill him for his murder of Renly.
The problem with people like Linda is that they give all fantasy/scifi fans bad names. We never have been held in high regard by the general public: if you want a 30 year old but still accurate depiction of how the world sees us, William Shatner nailed it: http://www.joblo.com/videos/horror-movies/william-shatner-get-a-life-snl.
The other problem is that Joe and Jane Public just look at people like LInda the way they did the Tolkien hot-heads who complained about how awful those movies were, or the Harry Potter fans who praised the bad early films and complained loudly about the later good ones. I.e., we are a bunch of obsessive geeks who know more about a fictional world than the real one, yet who know less about the actual stories than do the casual watchers and readers. For all the fact that Linda is buddies with GRRM, I see zero evidence that she has any understanding (or even awareness) of the actual stories in these books that she loves so much. And that gives us all a bad name.
GRRM has been less involved because he desperately wants to get WoW out before next season, and because (by his own admission) he cannot write a book and do other things at the same time. I do not doubt this: I am someone who writes a lot, but I cannot do much else when I am writing a manuscript. Many (if not most) of my colleagues are the same way: you have to be “in the zone” when you are writing, and outside distractions
Actually, GRRM recently posted a pretty strong rebuke of the views that Linda holds (although not naming her or anyone else specifically) on his blog. In it, he stressed that the show and the books were telling the same story albeit in different ways because you cannot tell the same story the same way on page and on screen. (He has written books and TV scripts, so he really knows this.) He also ridiculed people who call the show fan-fiction, noting that “adaptation” and “fan-fiction” were fundamentally different things.
But that brings us to the basic issue that a certain subset of fans in all fandoms do not grasp: what it is you “adapt” when you adapt a novel to a film or TV show. If you just see the tale as a series of specific events, then the concept of “adaptation” is oxymoronic: if it’s not the exact same sequence of events, then it’s not the same. However, that’s not what Peter Jackson or Steve Kloves or B&W or anyone else is being adapting: they are adapting the story. And the sequence of events that communicates a story on page is almost guaranteed to not communicate the identical story on screen. (The converse holds, too.) But it’s never about the sequence of events: when storytellers get ideas for a story, what they get is the story and the very basic plot: and then they set up specific plots and narrative details to tell that story. That should tell you right there what part they want to see make it to (or out of) the screen.
Gatsby,
Her racism, nastiness and sense of entitlement over the reins of the fandom are what piss people off the most about her. And the fact that such a lousy person benefits financially from the show and books. Her opinions being monotonous and shitty is almost besides the point.
Seriously, look at how downright rude she’s being to people who question her unprofessionalism. I really don’t see how anyone, even her husband, could defend how she’s responding to criticism.
Wimsey,
This does makes sense. Thanks for your insight.
Lex,
She’s the Nikki Finke of GoT fandom.
Wimsey,
With friends like those…. 😛
Yeah, when she had that little speech at the beginning of the season, I spent the whole time thinking “This scene’s existence makes very little sense if she isn’t going to get a shot at killing Stannis later on this season” which didn’t make sense to me at the time, but now very much does.
Whether Stannis catches a fatal bullet when they pull the trigger on that sub-plot remains to be seen, but I will be surprised if that trigger isn’t pulled next episode.
Ravyn,
I’d go further than that. She’s the tumour.
Mr Fixit,
Praying for the day someone does a new one that can be linked to.
Charles M,
The best thing about Stannis is Stephen Dillane. Incredible performance last night.
Delta1212
What I wonder is how does she get close enough to him to take him out and would it be a suicide attack if she did? It makes more sense in some ways that Davos gets revenge for Shireen since he can get close to Stannis in private with no suspicions. Though personally I think Davos will stay with Jon. Brienne’s statement works in the sense that it really boosts the drama of her (most likely) choice to help Sansa over killing Stannis.
Two pointless deaths that were there ONLY for the shock factor. Nuke D&D
The very first time we saw Stannis and Melisandre, they were burning people alive on the beaches of Dragonstonedo they even watch their own show
Tssss… gonna need some ice for that burn (no pun intended). Nice catch.
Loki,
Than stop watching the show and quit bitching. Wait for TWOW and get fucked there too once you come across those pages of the same characters dying.
I agree! Top man, top actor.
You have walloped the nail on its head!
OT
Season 5 soundtrack now available in iTunes
I think final scene of seasone will be: Dead Tommen in Kings Landing, dead Myrcella in Dorne and crying Cersei in front of Red Keep asking for Mothers mercy. Why? Because of prophecy in flasback in first episode. It makes sense to have prophecy from first scene of first episode fullfilled in last scene of last episode. There is no other reason than this to have flashback in this seasone.
Who’s a bigger dick, Stannis for burning his daughter or Jorah for infecting everyone with grayscale
In my opinion, they wanted to show us the big differencence between Stan and Dany
One burns his dughter in order to conquer the realm
The other leaves everything in order to save her “son”
I am convinced this is going to happen in the books (if they ever will be published).
Stannis has never been a good person, never. I don’t even know how came people became to love his character.
Dany made a lot of mistakes, but only because of her naivety and inexperience.
I dont understand one thing. Even if Stannis is persuaded that he must sacrifice his daughter, why must he burn her alive? He or Melisandre could give her something to sleep. Instead of that Shireen is escorted like a criminal in some light robe to the pyre and Stannis is hiding behind the corner to hear her scream. WTF? Why? It has no sense to treat her worse than Mance. It is very bad written scene beacuse of this nonsense.
This.
I too think there’s a reason for the prophecy in the very firstmepisode.
It wouldn’t make sense if they are going to fulfill it in the next seasons, while people will have forgot about it.
MikulasHusa,
You don’t understand the Lord of Light. He takes sacrifices by fire.
A bitter irony in the whole tale is that the person who had the most accurate take on certain facets of life was Cersei: “Everywhere they hurt little girls.”
MikulasHusa,
1, The show had that flashback because it was relevant to her impending downfall. Plus the showrunners already confirmed the final scene would be from the books, which pretty much rules out everything except varys, or ftw.
2. If anything, your suggestion about putting her to sleep would have utterly ruined what was an immensely powerful scene. Her pleading for her mother and father did nothing if not add weight to an already dark moment.
Mr Fixit,
LOL! what a joke! Hahhah thanks for that
debbie,
Me too, after drinking wine all evening after hearing the water-cooler talk about what happened to Shireen. I do see it as something that could have happened, but I expected to see Selyse do it behind his back with Mel. Ambition though? I think D&D honestly believe what they are saying, but that doesn’t mean they undertand the motives of the character as written by GRRM. Meh, I guess no more Stannis Memes on my facebook now
Damn. I love that piece. Every time Linda shoots off her mouth, someone links to that post and participation goes through the roof at iswintercoming. Always good for three or four new registers.
Thanks, Bex!
Cersei included. She hurts little girls too.
Here’s Carice van Houten’s take on the burning scene at the daily beast
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/09/game-of-thrones-murderous-red-priestess-carice-van-houten-on-melisandre-s-child-burning-ritual.html
Frumphhfhgh. I bought it.
You know what’s worse? It’s actually pretty good. Perhaps I should go all Stannis on TWoIaF’s sorry ass and punish it somehow for the sins of its mother, all the while rewarding it for all the good bits in it. Maybe I should burn the book jacket on the altar of the Black Goat of Qohor?
Yeah Shireen was pretty difficult to stomach, kinda spoiled the mood for Daznaks
That said I do expect Shireen to die in the books, eg Vals conversation about Greyscale confirms it etc thematically and there are others too, eg Theon and Tyrion as kinslayers will die and Ser Jorah ever since he went into MMD’s tent etc
Shireen won’t be the last, I am expecting Tommen, Myrcella to go as well, not necassarily nice either. Obviously people in the early books have been slightly pro-Stark and slightly anti-Lannister and have been for a long time because of how long the books are taking etc but Tommena and Myrcella are nice so their probably harsh fate will be hard to stomach, on the other side of the coin I expect some of the Stark kids to end up doing some dark controversial things, eg Sansa in particular, maybe Arya and perhaps even Bran. And like Cat it will be interesting to see how “death” changes Jon if he comes back…
Point is the anti-Stannis feelings won’t be the first conflicted feelings that emerge, though it will be trickier in the books than the show which has been playing favourites, eg butchering Stannis as a zealot while white-washing Cersei at times and going on and on and on and on and on and on and on about her love for her children etc etc etc etc
In the case of Stannis though, he is a nice counterpart to the Night’s King who was slowly corrupted by Otherism, R’hlorrism is no less corrupt it just articulates itself differently and I expect that Stannis will be to the Baratheons what the NK is to the Starks (given I reckon he is a Stark). So on one side we have Night’s King and on the other Stannis as the ‘Shadow King’ so to speak
Dolorous Methuselah,
I don’t buy for a second that we’re done with the Dorne stuff, or that they’re going to drop the matter of Oberyn’s death and everything to do with Elia so quietly. If I had money I’d put it on the notion that he has something up his sleeve. There’s just something off about the way she just forgave Jaime in the next scene.
I agree that one of Tommen and Myrcella has to die, but both of them? Myrcella hasn’t been crowned yet, either, unless she manages to get crowned and die in the next episode.
ohrhllor,
Nothing EVER wraps up that neatly, does it? Lol. 😮
Why is it that everyone is ignoring the real disgusting villian of this show? Did we really have to watch Trant oggle several prostitutes before the madam pulls a very unwilling virgin child in for him to deflower? Even the other soldiers look at him like “oh dude, that’s wrong.” And then…he asks for another the next night? We were all upset about the”rape” of Sansa (who was playing the game and was married to the man that forced himself on her ) but we are not SUPER UPSET about this child being raped by a kingsguard and his two attendants?
Writer on the Wall,
I don’t think most of us needed any more reason for Arya to want to kill him, but perhaps it was ‘necessary’ in a way in the event that Arya (herself a young girl not much older that the brothel girl) sets herself up as bait to get him alone….not a pleasant thought, but that’s really the only reason I can see it being useful.
Hodor’s Bastard,
I liked book Brienne but superwoman show Brienne is just dull. I think shelving or reducing her storyline a bit this season would have been a wise decision as they could have put more time into Dorne and other areas. The action scene at the inn was particularly tiresome and pointless. But yeah, looks like she’s gonna kill Stannis which I must admit is a little too telgrapged at this point. Would love a twist. Wonder if the her and Jaime thing is actually gonna happen now?
Also, I’m not sure who these Linda and Elio people are and have no opinion on their opinions but do thoughts on them really have to hijack each thread. Don’t agree with what they’re saying? Great. Then ignore it and get on with enjoying the show. What good does bitching about them actually do?
Writer on the Wall,
Because Trant has always been a c*nt so pouring extra arsehole sauce onto him is pretty much just stoking the fire for what’s to come.
Stannis was beginning to show likeable traits for the casual viewer so people feel confused and a little disappointed in the way he acted. I’ve always enjoyed Stannis as character and I admit to being a bit disappointed in the way he’s developed. He’s still very interesting but not really as likeable anymore!
Except that she’s gotten very little screen time as it is. That written, I do wish that there was a bit more screen time for Jaime’s story. That is the one that is really lagging. However, I’m not really sure what could have been cut: this season has been very non-stop.
Wimsey,
She has had little but still more than she really needed. I think they wasted a lot of the first two episodes to be honest. They could have trimmed a lot of Brienne and Arya and even some off Sansa and used it more effectively in other places. Overall, I think this has been the weakest season to date. Not saying that it still isn’t good but there’s been less of the stuff that I really enjoy about GoT as a TV show. The lack of good conversations between characters being thin on the ground this season.
Pau,
Yes, clearly being a racist, sexist, rape apologising scumbag is just as bad as collecting info from someone’s public blog and putting them in a post XD
Anyone notice what Benioff says about tyrion thinking about dany
i posted this on the recap thread but i will post it here also
A lot of people picked up on the Stannis and dany scenes how one is willing to sacrifice the child and other is not
what is more interesting is that while stannis does it thinking about he must fulfill destiny ..
dany on the other hand is fulfilling the destiny without her knowledge by choosing to save her son
she has now made Tyrion believe in her and thinking she must be the chosen one ..
it all fits the story now …Dany is slayer of the lies indeed
This also really bothered me too. When Mel walked out of her tent and I relaized how close the fires were, it just didn’t make sense to me how 20 guys could have snuck in and did that.
Stannis’s comment that, “They either fell asleep or knew of it” doesn’t do enough for me to use that as an explanation. There is just no way “knowing the landscape” got them that close to the heart of the army.
Simon,
Why not? Historically, that is how “terrorist” attacks on army encampments happened. Let’s face it, getting past guards in such circumstances could be done in any number of ways, particularly by such a small party. Add to this the laxity that always sets in when an army is immobilized for a while and the fact that there are no “uniforms” to denote strangers in a camp filled with people concerned much more with not freezing than anything else, and this would be as close to a piece of cake as possible.
The only “unreal” part was how widespread the fires were snd that they were so synchronized. A more realistic tactic would have been to set fire to one area of importance and then set fire to a second area of importance, then flee. (One fire by accident would not shock people with so many large fires happening; a second would be the give away.)
I’m wondering how they didn’t put them out quicker surrounded by snow!