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In the Game of Thrones season finale edition of Inside the Episode, David Benioff and D.B. Weiss discuss the Walk, ‘For the Watch,’ Stannis’s emotions, Reek’s actions to help Sansa, the repercussions of Arya’s impatience, Dany’s leaving a clue behind, and Jaime feeling like a father for the first time.
Indira Varma, Nell Tiger Free, and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau talk about their character’s motivations in the finale in “Myrcella’s Long Farewell.”
George R.R. Martin shares information about Cersei’s Walk of Atonement depicted in last night’s finale.
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There are interviews galore after the finale so keep your eyes peeled for more posts today, and shortly- our Unsullied recap!
Hey Stannis, Robb sends his regards.
I was so looking forward for Ellaria to die this episode.Guess I’ll have to wait another year.
I’m still in awe.
Lol,alot of Stannis fanboys are disliking the video because they can’t handle the fact that he was nothing more than a B+ in the game,and that’s being generous,talk about butthurt
DDF345,
I’m glad that we won’t have “Stannis the Mannis” nonsense anymore…..
Please come back Jon
Like it or not Stannis is one of the most popular characters in the ASOIAF universe.
mau,
Exactly,good fucking riddance,hopefully his fanboys will follow him but i doubt it because you know how this fanbase is,one minute they are quitting and the next they are first in line in watching .
Well, because haters are gonna hate. Let’s start the “We didn’t see Stannis die, so he is still alive” campaign. If only to piss off those complaining above.
Ser Gerold Dayne,
I liked his character, but I don’t like his extreme fans…
You know what…
When all is said and done about this episode and Season 5 in general, I think it was Very kind that HBO and D&D have still given George a chance to bring out The Wolves of Winter before they start Season 6.
We are ‘basically’ still at the same place we are in the books.
No Way is Jon dead.
Whatever device we feel George used to write that event, I just saw it as a way for Jon to be freed of his Night’s Watch vows.
His Watch has Ended! …let Jon Targaryen Arise!
Still mourning for the death of Jaime’s fatherhood. Can’t watch video. Eyes too blurry.
Here Be Dragons,
Yeah…..about the book,sorry but i don’t think it’s coming dude,Martin keeps saying he will commit to finish the book but just a few days ago he said he had a few tv series and short movies and other shit that doesn’t have anything to do with finishing the book,he’s like some of the fans,he says something once and then contradicts himself .
DDF345,
I don’t have a statistic for this.Just personal observation.Forums,social networks,in all online communities you will find Stannis fans.And there are allot of pages dedicated to Stannis with plenty of followers.And even if they don’t have the best numbers they are really passionate.
People around here need to stop hating on those who didn’t like the episode, or aspects of it. If you enjoyed it, that’s great, I’m genuinely happy for you and I want people to like the show. But come on, let’s stop pretending that nobody is allowed to criticize it, or to find certain plot resolutions to be unsatisfying.
Like with Stannis for instance. It’s not necessarily a case of being a “fanboy”.
Some people just don’t like anticlimactic endings to storylines that have been built up all season. Plus Stannis’ death is utterly meaningless and impactless. I know people who hate the character and who agree that it was not a fitting end, given how much time we invested in him. All told, they may as well have killed him off at Blackwater, because since then his story has been utterly pointless. Given how much they change, and how unrealistic some things are, they could have found a way to have the Night’s Watch beat Mance without Stannis. Would have been shit, but the show has done worse.
His contribution to the story since Season 2 has amounted to a big fat nothing, as did Shireen’s sacrifice, because Stannis is immediately killed after sacrificing her. Her sacrifice has no long term weight, because we won’t see how it affects Stannis. Literally the most rushed and anticlimactic end for a character/story that I have ever seen. The whole North has amounted to nothing, as the status quo has been preserved. Easy victory for the Boltons, which was totally ridiculous, because Stannis is supposed to be a great commander, yet he walks into an open field with no plan only to see the cavalry charge at him. He looked like a massive idiot. Which apparently he is on the show.
Sorry, but you don’t have to a Stannis fan to think that this resolution was very poorly handled.
If you disagree with me, either make your point politely and reasonably, or ignore me. But I don’t want any childish “Oh you’re just a butthurt fanboy” comments. Disliking an artistic choice does not make you “butthurt”, and disliking how a character was killed does not even mean you like that character. It just means the storytelling was not to your liking, which used to be an acceptable opinion to have around here. Can’t fathom why that has changed.
do you really think Myrcella is dead? i dont think so, have they confirmed?
I think the poison will have some effects on her, similar with what happened with her in aFfC, but I dont think it will kill her
Mark,
He was beaten down, had lost his family, half his army, the woman who had guided him, and was without his most trusted commander. I found the absolute massacre to be a fitting ending for him.
His last words made me like him more than I ever had before, actually. A really tragic character in the end.
clk,
The touching moment with Jaime was a death sentence. I knew one of them was about to die right there as soon as they hugged.
bristolcity,
Loved the last words, but that was it.
I’m now really wondering how this plays out in TWoW, if we ever get it.
clk,
I´m afraid she is dead, at least the viewer´s guide lists her as deceased. I still can´t quite wrap my head around it, but it seems like we once again have to face a terrible truth.
Besides that, I really loved, loved, loved this episode, it may possibly be among the / the best episode(s) of GoT, at least in my opinion. Yeah, there were some inconsistencies (Arya´s face among the masks/maybe she halluzinated becuause of the drugs), but a man needs to be very, very critical to deny a enjoyment of this episode because of such minor missteps. The only justified criticism I see can be directed at Dorne (once again) and the Sansa-arch, but these were clearly due to a lack of appropriate set-up in the last episodes and not the fault of E10 not being able to conclude these storylines in a satisfactory way. If anything, it redeemed them to some extent and saved what was to save, at least in my honest opinion.
I do not want to analyse every little bit of this episode, but one thing just needs a bit of acclaim, otherwise it would sink and be forgotten in the flood of information that was this episode. This thing would be the battle of Winterfell and Stannis´ exit from the show. It was beautifully shot and by deciding to pretty much only show the grim aftermath of it instead of letting nameless soldiers clash and slay each other, it kept a great atmosphere throughout the whole scene. How they handled Stannis´ death was exceptional.
His last moments were bleak, grim and intense, showing once again that Stannis would rather break than bend, even though that inevitably was a tragically wrong decision in the end. It is nothing less than exceptional story-telling and writing when I find myself , after Stannis who killed my King Renly and burned his daughter alive, STILL secretly rooting for him in some place of my heart to some extent and wanting him to survive. But the really exciting thing is HOW they managed to pull it off without letting it seem like the revenge of Brienne but rather a full-circle-narrative about Stannis´ sins and his downfall because of them.
Rather than letting Brienne quite literally slash his head off, they went with the atmospheric approach to not show the banality of death onscreen, but we more or less witness an transcendent atmosphere in which all boiled down to Stannis´ original sin. He is not slain by Brienne´s sword as much as he is slain by all the gruesome decisions that now backfire on him, making the absence of a real death-scene by sword all of a stronger metaphorical image. The sword now comes down on him, but his real downfall had occurred before that. Internal, he was dead long ago but dragged forward by what he deemed his duty, yet now in his final moments the “weight of his sins” pulled him down into his grave. Strong imagery and definitely one of the GoT-scenes I will always remember.
There would still be so many other interesting and outstanding things to talk about concerning this episode, but I will leave this to all the more talented writers on WOTW that can do real justice to the intriguing source-material that is this episode, I´m sure they will find better words for the other points I wanted to address.
Cheers to D&D and the team working on GoT!!
clk,
This is perhaps the same poison that was meant to kill Bronn. Elaria had to poison herself too but she had the antidote. Kit Harington confirmed that his character is dead. We didn’t see dead Stannis but I think it’s just to make some his fans to keep faith that he will be alright. Personally, I’m curious what will happen to the Night’s Watch after they lost their commander, quite competent one.
Mark,
Oh look more of that let’s make myself the victim of being attacked because i don’t have any valid arguments . Can’t say i didn’t see that coming, as for your complaints about Stannis’s death seems nothing more than bitterness at the fact that his storyline didn’t turn out the way you wanted,how is his death meaningless,nothing in this series is meaningless,almost every character’s death leads to something be it positive or negative,just because you didn’t like how he died or the way he died,doesn’t make the story or the writers bad and certainly doesn’t take anything away from the power of that scene .
Mark,
By your logic, half the characters who were ever introduced should be pointless. Why did we follow Robb so much and his campaign to avenge his father, he got himself, his mother, pregnant wife and a fuck ton of northerners killed, and for what?
The Shireen sacrifice to the Lord of Light is meaningful because Mel is at the Wall, and Jon is dead and she knows about the Gift of Life.
And how was Stannis’ resolution rushed? We had the whole season leading up to his demise. They made him likable, seem like he had the odds in his favor to win Winterfell, but his belief in duty and destiny ultimately led to his downfall.
The show is not perfect and it will never be. It seems to be a trend though, to shit on it every chance we get and compare to the books. I actually hope the show finishes the story before any more books come out, because I do not want to hear or read another person say, “But in the books…”
One last thing, I dont know what else people want from the show. This season seemed to hit all the high notes from the books, while not going much past them. I’m excited for season 6, we have end game storylines nicely set up, and hopefully we’ll get some fresh blood infused along with bringing back the Freys hopefully, and maybe a few other characters we’ve seen before.
Knight of Storm´s End,
You see,now this guy gets it ! My hatred for Stannis didn’t have anything to do with him as a character,just the obnoxious way that the fanboys tried to push him down our throats as like a character bigger than fucking Daenerys or Jon Snow,i mean there are fans and there are fanatics and sadly a good portion of his fans were the latter,that’s why i’m glad he is dead .
Mark,
Stannis’ actual final moments with Brienne weren’t my favorite. It did seem a little muted. That said, I mostly liked everything leading up to that. Stannis’s characterization in the books and the show has been someone who is very inflexible and willing to make terrible decisions in service to his stated goals. He was always going to break before he bent, and Shireen’s sacrifice was the final “bend or break” moment for his character. He refused to bend away from his ambition/destiny/whathaveyou and this episode depicted his inevitable shattering as a result. I enjoyed watching the complete collapse as it came, and I say that as someone who was a mild Stannis fan.
I’m also not terribly broken up about wasted time, because like Ned before him, I suspect Stannis was never the main character of his own plot. The honor of being the character most important to the end-game from that particular thread goes to Mel and/or Davos. Depending on what those two wind up doing in the next couple books/seasons, I won’t consider it a wasted plot.
bristolcity,
Agree completely. Dany said it way back – “what happens to things that do not bend?” Stannis’ ending was absolutely fitting for him. He could not bend and that lead to his break – no army, no family, left alone and a kinslayer.
I have to admit, I didn’t particularly find much to care about Stannis in the books but Stephen Dillane’s performance (along with a bit more “rounding” in the writing of his character in the show) made Stannis compelling. Whether you love him or hate him, he was always interesting to watch. If he is really dead (and I think he is) I will miss seeing Stephen Dillane on the show.
I just feel that the reason because Melissandre leaves Stannis is empty.
“Hey, wanna f*ck?”
“Nope, you made me f*cking burn my daughter”
“What?? Key, bye dude.”
I mean. They can’t give so much hints about their important future and about Melissandre’s faith in his hero and suddendly kill it all. Just why? He did what you wanted except having se, with you. You caused him the lost of all his family. And you leave him? The only thing I hate about this season is that they didn’t know how to spend their time, they wasted everything in buildih things up and then execute their endings in a poorly way. Like “Hey dudes, episode 10, hurry up kill this and thst and that one, made it end. Next season will resolve the rest”. They made Melissandre, Littlefinger, Olenna and a lot of other characters travel as fast as the wind, but theb wasted their time in a lot of plots by planning and planning, and make more plans, and traveling and blablablá. It works in a book, not on a screen. Episodes 5-6-7 gave the story too much of a paused developing of itself. It all felt rushed in the finale.
Surprised no one is complaining yet about Lady Stoneheart.Maybe we should start with the speculation on when she will be introduced in season 6.Or maybe they save her for 7.Could be this.
Javier,
And there is the perfect example of what i was talking about,love it when people prove my point . Because of course,the episode should have focused 30 minutes on Stannis the Mannis and how great he was and how epic the battle was because we need to cater to the Stannis the Mannis fanbase only,no,you see in real life,even the greatest leaders or figures had the most banal deaths ever,not everything has to end in grandeur,i actually liked that it happened like it was any other simplistic battle on the show,quick and be done with it .
Mel realized that she’d sacrificed Stannis as well as Shireen. I think that this has shaken Mel to her core: for the first time, she’s thinking that she has badly misunderstood what she saw in the flames.
Ser Gerold Dayne,
Or the most logical conclusion,she’s not going to be in the show at all,come on dude we are entering season 6 and you still think that’s possible ?
I don’t get this. Human lives don’t have “points”. The life led by Stannis had a big impact on the history of Westeros as we currently know it, including well after the Blackwater, hence us being told about it. When you play the game of thrones, da-dum de-dum de-dum. He played the game, he didn’t win, and here we are.
DDF345,
If his death does have interesting ramifications, I’ll retract what I said and tell you you were right. In the mean time, just because you disagree doesn’t mean my arguments aren’t valid. They were perfectly valid, and there are thousands of people who are also puzzled by this turn of events. People are allowed to have different opinions. I’m not bashing you for yours. Grow up and get used to it.
I think the books themselves underline very well how just as in real history some people appear to have very important roles yet become no more than a footnote.
Just look at Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick, “The Kingmaker”; died in battle that was critical in changing the fortunes of the war against his own Lancastrian side. Partly responsible for all the turmoil and tragedy of the Wars of the Roses. A star that burned brightly for a while and then was extinguished. His son was later executed and so effectively ended the Plantagenet line for ever. What did he achieve in the end and exactly was it all for?
When this is all played out we will have the benefit of hindsight to judge his actions for better or worse.
As for Stannis…. they DID show some sort of mortal-looking wound leaking lots of blood BEFORE Brienne showed up. She was giving the Mercy that Arya didn’t give the Hound.
Therefore… Stannis = dead, the Hound = not dead. Not doubting it for me, even if it was a bit messy in presentation.
My question… did Sylese kill herself or did Stannis’s men kill her? I’ve seen people get both interpretations out of the scene so far….
Yeah, you could practically see the “Oh… well fuck” written across Mel’s face when they received news of the desertions.
Delta1212,
All very good points, and politely expressed, so I thank you for it. The more I think about it, the more I realize that he was definitely not the main character of his own story. A definite sign of this in the novels, is that he isn’t the POV character for his plot. Nonetheless, I feel underwhelmed by what we got here, and I’m stunned that this is what the Battle of Ice became in the show.
You guys are going to have enough Curtain Call posts to last until next season.
We lost soooo many main and reoccurring characters in this one episode.
I was actually just thinking that a lot of people on this board need to read some real medieval history. What they’ll regularly find is kings and lords enjoying seemingly decisive victories in one campaigning season, only to wind up with their heads on spikes in the next.
DDF345,
It was a joke,of course she’s cut.It’s been 2 years now,next one it will be 3.Yet some people expect her every episode.No matter how many times they are told by everyone she’s cut.
Yesterday i said by the time i watch the last episode this site will have 5 new posts with 2000 comments.
By the time the end credits started rolling i knew there is no way in hell there will be 2000 comments.
I will say the pacing of the episode was excelent, the content not so much.
Break the internet? Got Hype? Nope not even close ….
What we got was series of cliffhangers for an ending. It feels like cheating, it feels cheap. GRRM did it in the books couse his editor asked for it since she felt it would fasten the publishment of the book.
But why would D&D “end” the season with no real conclusion of ANY SORT of ANY STROYLINE is beyond me.
– Dorne was confirmed as someone said to be a season long Yara Dreadfort raid. Doran´s master plan is sitting in a chair. Like they shot the whole thing without a screenplay.
Dud of all duds. Waste of screen time.
– Jon is ofcourse not perminantly dead no matter what Kit and D&D are saying.
WHERE IS GHOST? He was said to ahve a big fight scene this season? I sure as hell did not see it.
– Sansa .. ohh boy our apprentice manipulator did not manage to charm Ramsey, she did not manipulate anyone all she did was wait to be rescued like good ole Sansa. And that “rescue” by Theon is absurd. Like Ramsey doesnt enjoy a good hunt especially when those hunted leave footprints in the snow.
– Arya .. we watch her sweep floors for 2/3 of the season to find her in the final episode able to change faces with no explanatiion to how she mastered this ability?
– Stannis … ok why not show him getting killed? They showed everyone else why not him? I know why … to get another cheap cliffhanger. Cmon D&D i tought you were better storytellers than this.
– Cersei´s walk was ok. Kevan and Pycelle live.
– Dany … another cliffhanger to the unsullied it looks like she is going to get mass raped by an entire Khallisar making Sansa rape ordeal a minor incident.
– Tyrion and Varys... wait we are actually going to stay in Mereen next season and watch “Find the Harpy”? WTF?
D&D said that by season 4 the storylines shoud be contracting. Instead they seem to be expanding.
In S6 we will have
– Wall
– KL
– Reach
– Euron
– Dany and Dothraki
– Mereen
– Arya nd her filler
– Riverlands (since they said we will se the Freys again)
———————————————————-
The feeling of watching this episode and this season in general was the same when i read AFFC/DWD … disapointment for getting absolutely no conclusion whatsoever.
Mark,
So people that didn’t like the episode are those who don’t like anticlimactic endings? Well then, you must hate the books!
When D&D edit and deviate from the story, they get yelled at. When they follow the story, their episodes suck? Seems legit.
Stannis was a foil for Davos all along. Davos’ contributions to the story were basically trying to be the conscious of a man who understood only the morality of duty, and who was so emotionally neutered by whatever factors that he had no feel for “life.” Davos job was to be more loyal to Stannis the Person than Stannis the General ever could be.
Darjan,
I disagree with your comparison to Robb. First of all, we don’t follow him around in the books. It’s quite clear that Robb’s story is actually Catelyn’s story. The decision to show more of him on the show is understandable, but still, Robb was not the really meant to be the emotional core of that plot (in my opinion). Even if he were though, his death had meaning. It made sense for the overall plot, but it also concluded his character’s story in a way that made sense. Not to mention all the consequences of the Red Wedding for the rest of the story. There is no question that the Red Wedding and Ned’s death make you wonder at first why you were following Ned, Robb, and Cat. But after about a split second you realize that their fates made perfect sense, and that we should have seen from day one that this was their fate. Their deaths have huge impacts on other characters, and the overall story, as well as several subplots.
I’ll reserve judgment until this is over, but I’m really struggling to see what this whole northern storyline has amounted to in the show, and I don’t see what Stannis’ death could possibly do for the overall narrative at this point. There would have been more ripples if they had just killed him at Blackwater (I’m not saying they should have, I’m just pointing out his limited contribution since then). The best ramification we can hope for is interesting development for Davos and possibly Mel, but that still seems pretty thin to me personally.
Believe me, I’ll be thrilled if I’m proven wrong.
Piotr,
Yes, I’m almost positive that the same poison that was used on Bronn was used on Myrcella. In “The Gift,” Tyene tells us that the poison is called “The Long Farewell,” and that just so happens to be the title of Myrcella’s farewell video. Coincidence? Pro’ly not.
Some people will only be satisfied if a character’s death is going out in a blaze of glory.
Maybe the whole point of all the various stories in the North is how the numerous houses and factions of Westerosi are so busy fighting each other that they are neglecting the serious shit going down beyond the wall and that “Winter really is bloody coming at last”.
It could be that we have scene setting for the Free Folk to show they are the only ones with their wits about them when it comes to Showtime.
Sergei Walankov,
I am 100% with you. Human lives don’t have points. But in a fictional story with so many characters, there needs to be a good reason why the writer included a given character. Obviously Stannis is hugely important, but part of being hugely important is having a role to play, either while you’re alive, or indirectly through your death. Stannis’ existence has been leading somewhere. That’s why we were following him. So if his story was merely leading to his downfall, which is a perfectly valid story, then his downfall needs to have important consequences. As things stand now, and as his downfall was portrayed in this episode, I felt that it lacked emotional weight, and felt like it happened too early. Can’t really see what his plot has amounted to this year. His family was wiped off the face of the Earth within two episodes, the Boltons won easily and the political status quo is preserved, and nobody except Davos and Mel is gonna give three shits that Stannis died.
Like I said, limited impact. But, as I said, that’s just my opinion, and hopefully, it will change in time when I see where this is all headed.
She killed herself. I’m not sure how she got so high in the tree, though. But if the men wanted vengeance for Shireen’s burning, they should have targeted Melisandre or Stannis before Selyse.
DDF345,
Kids, this is why you should shut the fuck up and think twice after reading something.
I
Bloody
Hate
Stannis
But, as a screenwriter myslef, I see that it felt rushed. They used the last three seasons to develop Mellissandre’s and Staniss’ relationshio. And in a minute it’s done? That’s poorly written. If, in the other hand, they had given them time IN PREVIOUS EPISODES so that it didn’t feel like that, that would have done it. But what did they do instead? Wasting time. “Am thi biutifilist womin in thi wurld sai it haha boobs look dorne i like killin and fuckin im so much like oberyn look o badass”.
If you spens your time developing things and explaining them multiple times, then you should maintain that in the way you execute the ending of those things. It’s that simple. The ones who have been reading the books understand the reasons. But think of any unsullied that only watches the show, without looking for things on the Internet. They don’t get that.
And, if anyone things I don’t like changes grom the books, they’re wrong. I love having two different versions of my favorite story. I just expect the changes to improve or, at least, maintain the cuality of the original source material.
Wimsey,
Yes, that what has happened. But, this “Melissandre’s left with a horse” thing is sad. Reasons, this is TV. You can show thing. The same way the re-explained every bit of why Stannis is the one true kings at Melissandre’s sight after every time he was feeling lost, they should have given us the reason why it has changed. Just that. We, the book readers, get why. Unsullied… Not that much.
Mark,
Exactly that.
Ginevra,
Exactly – the high tree is very silly. Not even horse running away height.
I also have a hard time believing Seylse would do it on the SHOW. The same difficulty I have that she was lying in the snow watching Shireen burn since the season 5 trailer clip. Book Selyse was less crazy but more fanatical. A fanatic seeing her religion demand too much of her- makes sense. The loon with babies in jars that mama loves more than her actual child… not so much…
I would bet that the opposite is true. I think that people just watching this without any preconceptions figured it out pretty quickly. I think that what confuses so many book readers is preconceptions. I know that I, myself, misread Jaime’s story on the show because of preconceptions from the book: I was looking for particular things and missed the things that they gave me.
Jorah lived….I can breathe for another year.
I hope Ellaria is sent piece by piece (and her minions too) by Doran to King’s Landing.
Another interview with John Bradley about Sam/Jon relationship.Either John is pretty damn good liar, or Jon Snow is well and truly gone.Maybe someone already posted this,but i guess here we go…
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/14/game-of-thrones-jon-snow-death-john-bradley_n_7580896.html?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000027
Yes. please.
People who want that shouldn’t be watching GoT. That’s not the point of the show. Revenge is a dish best served cold, but rarely with any emotional satisfaction. This isn’t a Steven Seagal movie.
All actors have to be convincing liars 😉
Pigeon,
Or sentenced to taste their own medicine, this time without antidote. I´m really interested in how Doran will handle the situation now that a Lannister-Tyrell-Martell-war is nearly inevitable.
Either way, it´s pretty sad that the whole of Westeros seems to be keen on eliminating such a promising future generation. First Shireen and now Myrcella…
At least, there will be no mercy for neither Ellaria nor the Sand-Snakes, we can be sure of that. Should Doran still get his grip on them…
Some people are so quick on these funnies
http://i.imgur.com/kOSHC2I.png
Interesting…especially considering what we know about Tycho Nestoris’ whereabouts in early TWoW.
Knight of Storm´s End,
The fact that Stannis was executed with valyrian steel from Ned Stark’s sword makes it all the more poetic, given that Ned’s message to Stannis is what initiated his quest.
Stannis like the character and love the actor ..he did great job this episode alone …it was such a tragic ending to the character
but i have to say i am sick of this conspiracy theories that D&D butchering stannis inorder tomake viewrs like dany blah blah
he was a secondary character and he never was and never will be as important as Dany or jon but his fanatics just tried to push him like he is the bigger character than dany or jon and this is what they get ..
the scrapping up of 5 year gap and leaving the Battle of winter out of ADWD was the main reason he became popular when main characters went into learning curves
if only his death can stop all his fanatics from ruining every single Asoiaf thread and youtube comment section ..one can only hope
I’ve read the books. Didn’t like Stannis much in them, but didn’t hate him either. In the show it was similar until this season. I really came around to liking him, even into his final moments. The subtlety Dillane brought to the character was incredible. Perhaps it was too subtle for some viewers.
Ever hear the expression, “show don’t tell”? Guess what, you can do both! You can make a character “tell” something, hell, the character can even BELIEVE it! But their actions speak louder than their words. That’s why Stannis burning Shireen was in character. I don’t care how many loving speeches he gives. His character would do literally anything to achieve his goal, and with good reason (if a WW army was going to kill everyone, I’d seriously consider murdering family members to save others… they’re going to die anyway, right?).
Then to episode 10, so many people complaining about Mel leaving him. He’s been pissy with her for a while. Go rewatch when she first brings up burning Shireen. The reason she left wasn’t out of nowhere either. Her entire character is built on the faith that some god is granting her powers… then she burns a king’s daughter and expects everything to be perfect, Stannis dancing merrily over the bodies of the Bolton army. But half Stannis’s army left. His wife hung herself. Sure the snow is melting, but this isn’t turning out how her sacrifice should have. Perhaps this man isn’t who the Red God wants. Perhaps there is no Red God. Mel certainly looked like she was questioning a few things with her silent stares to Jon and Davos at Castle Black. Her faith has been shaken, and she needs to reconsider everything.
Then, my final point, Stannis’s death wasn’t for nothing. He impacted so many other characters, from Jon to Tyrion to Brienne to Catelyn. No one can say what direct impact his death at Winterfell will be, but I’m sure there’s even more there than what he’s already impacted. The investment-to-payoff ratio with Stannis was much higher than even Robb Stark, and we’re not even done yet. Think where this story would be without him. Renly and Robb team up (between their armies and the Tyrell support, I’d say they’d easily take King’s Landing, killing every last Lannister including Tyrion). Brienne never meets the Kingslayer. Everyone at the wall is killed by Mance’s army. Mel and Davos have no purpose and don’t do much of anything.
Was his death anti-climactic? Maybe. But it was well done, and Dillane played him beautifully to the end. We didn’t get to see the whole battle, but as the last man standing, you can bet he killed more than just those two guys at the end. He didn’t die fighting in a blaze of glory, just slightly after it. (If he even died, because while I think he did, I’d say there’s a 10% chance Brienne either stopped or clipped the tree instead of his head.) Better death than Jon got.
Knight of Storm´s End,
Brilliant analysis! I was puzzled at first why they didn’t show his death but the more I thought about it, it made sense. I couldn’t put it into words but you managed to do so in a very elegant fashion. Thank you.
“I knelt beside his cold body, and said the old words. Not because I believed in them, but… he was my friend. And he was dead. And they were the only words I knew. And for the first time in my life, the Lord replied. Beric’s eyes opened. And I knew the truth: our God is the one true God… and all men must serve Him.”
“Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy, and let the man be born.”
“I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.”
“Try not to worry, Olly. I’ve been worrying about Jon for years. He always comes back.”
#believe
Ginevra,
If she stood on the back of a horse, she might have been able to do it. That’s what I’m assuming.
This proves that Stannis lives and is a total bad ass.
He will probably just retire to some nice warm island and chill the fuck out for the rest of his days. Brienne wont talk about not killing him because she is ashamed that she didn’t have the courage. We will never hear of it but King Stannis will just be a total beach bro until long after all the other characters are dead.
Anyone else agree with me that this was the worst of the 5 seasons
If Jon doesn’t come back in show but does in book , I’m boycotting the show from now on
Grand maester giz,
And…. you would have cut WHAT instead to put all that stuff in? Where was the fat to cut in this season?
Cutting Dorne and the silly snakes – where Myrcella dies and Jamie is kept away from King’s landing in hardly any minutes for a bunch of other characters who do NOTHING to the plot as of end of book 5.
Sand snakes became campy unfortunately. It happened. But at least they changed the likely future of the Iron Throne inheritance and used up Jaime’s Riverlands which there wasn’t time for.
Where the heck was Yara Greyjoy?
Spoilers aren’t that reliable anymore as they used to be…
I think the parallels between this season’s finale and last season’s finale were the most striking to me.
-You have the Bolton Army surrounding and engulfing the Baratheon army; a replica of last season’s aerial shot of Stannis’ army surrounding the Wildling host.
-You have Jamie telling Myrcella that he’s her father (well, attempting to tell her anyway), in the same vein that Cersei told Tywin about her and Jamie with the end result being the same: Tywin and Myrcella died.
-You have somewhat of a ‘hopeful’ scene in Sansa/Theon escaping from Winterfell, much like you had Arya sailing off to Braavos.
-Brienne once again killed a more skillful warrior than she; last year it was The Hound, this year it was Stannis.
-Both prominent Fathers (Stannis and Tywin) getting their dues, primarily as a result of what they did to their ‘disfigured’ children.
…and on and on (I’m positive there’s more, but I can’t think of them right now). Any who, I just thought that was interesting. Also, as someone pointed out in another thread (sorry I can’t remember who it was), I like that Cersei’s line to Oberyn about, “Everywhere in the world they hurt little girls,” came back in a very real way. They apparently do indeed hurt little girls in Dorne. The callback to those words gives me hope that at some point, there’ll be a callback to, “The North Remembers” and “Sansa’s not a killer. Not yet anyways.”
Indeed, cutting the Sandsnakes frees up only minutes of time: but those minutes would need to be replaced with some other “antagonist(s)” for Jaime’s storyline. Dorne was all about Jaime setting off to be Tywin II and make things right for House Lannister regardless of the costs to or wishes of others. In the end, Jaime winds up a man telling his daughter that being in love is the grandest thing of all. That replicates the basic story arc we got from the books: but it needed some antagonists that endangered Myrcella.
LSH could not provide that. Young Griff could not provide that. Quentyn could not provide that. Arianne could have, but only if she had been Ellaria.
The problem with your complaints, Grand maester giz, is that you want them to cram in details at the expense of a story. Instead, they told GRRM’s story: and they cut away characters and plotlines that would have detracted from the telling of that story.
And, most assuredly, there are people who agree with you that this was the worst season ever. However, they are a small minority. The single most common view looks like it will be that this is the best season yet.
I want to agree with you. As a Sansa fan, I REALLY want to agree with you (and simultaneous go off on a 500 page rant about what nonsense her entire storyline/character development has been this season). But I’m desperately trying to avoid using words like “meaningless” and “pointless” and whatever else, because I still don’t know where any of this is going. And without having the actual endgame, it’s hard to judge. I feel like the entirety of this season has simply been a set up for the final two, tbh.
Well, I’ve read fans complain that the books and show make it look like Daeny has appealing characteristics like empathy in order to make readers/viewers like her. When you start with the conclusion that Daeny (or any character) is truly unlikable and interpret details in that light, then these sort of logically circular arguments are hard to avoid.
Grand maester giz,
It’s definitely had its weak points (especially Dorne) but overall I really enjoyed Season 5, especially Hardhome and The Dance of Dragons. I can’t wait for Season 6!
As a Sansa fan, shouldn’t you be glad she got a storyline this season? She basically is sidelined in the books without any contribution to the story. And shouldn’t you be glad that for the first time ever, Sansa is thinking and being active, and not just being a passive object in other people’s machinations?
We have a character that received zero dynamic development in the books and who could easily have been written out this season (she is less important to the Crows/Dragons story than eminently cutable characters like Arianne or Asha), yet who (finally!) got a story line that involved her character changing: one could argue even her character at all.
This season was not just setup. It told a story about people killing the inner boy/girl and trying to step up the the man/woman that they need to be. Some succeed. Some fail. Some simply change. But that story all by itself was told. We have some hanging plot points that will feed the next story: but that will be it’s own story.
imdb has never been reliable. It has occasionally been right, but never reliable.
Anybody else feel like the whole “season 5 will cover the last two books” thing is maybe not such a simple truth anymore?
By which I mean we could get a lot of Iron Islands, Oldtown, and blind Arya next year? Maybe Northern Conspiracy stuff too…
Which is all fine… at the very least I assume they’re going to have to move ahead into non-book territory with Dany, Tyrion, Cersei and Bran stories.
My concern is that they could conceivably stall a lot of storylines at this point ala “Bran is offscreen training this year”… e.g., Theon and Sansa lost in the wilderness and nobody has heard from them; Arya training offscreen; Tyrells in jail and Tommen locked up in his room…
Before the season there was a lot of talk about how it’s time to make the GoT world “smaller” by starting to bring certain storylines together… but after the finale it feels like we’re as scattered all over the place as we’ve ever been. Okay, we’ve (sort of) ended the Stannis and Dorne arcs, but Mereen is suddenly split into three different stories, the wall has spawned a separate Sam arc, and we still need to get back to Bran and Rickon… IT’S MADNESS I TELL YOU.
Stannis died so Balon Greyjoy just won the War of the Five Kings!We spent years on this,I’m surprised no one is talking about it.Especially since it’s completely changed compared to the books.
Wimsey,
OMG we just agreed on something!? Neat.
Me, I feel like I would have likde to see Ellaria be more Arianne and less Darkstar, leaving Darkstar for one of the snakes. I REALLY still miss Quentyn… but having seen the whole season Dorne didn’t need any more embarrassment and impotence.
The best thing that D&D did this season for me really was in the end what they cut, and what they restructured. The execution of some of the scenes and the episode writing was where they failed more often… but nailing nine out of every ten scenes is pretty fab. Pacing was tricky too.
If suddenly there’s oodles of time in season 6 – silly Trystane can still be Quentyn.. one of the sand snakes can take the place of Arianne… Jorah can become JonCon. There’s still book plot that can be backtracked and covered, if where Arya’s plotline ended is any indication….
I think you may be right. I believe working from an outline is different than working from a book. It goes straight to TV adaptation it may give a tighter look for those last two books that can fit probably in 1.5 season, while they still need time for a few storylines from Feast & Dance. It may be that adaptation is no longer influenced by details on the page, or “this part is not important”, or “we can cut the next 50 pages or that plot” etc. Developing from a bullet point may give the script writers a better latitude on how they plan to adapt, mix and consolidate Martin’s ideas. I think this is where Benioff and Weiss will shine or lack luster. I sincerely hope they succeed.
Grand maester giz,
Dude this is your 200th post stating this. If there’s one more of your annoying, provocative posts I swear to God…
Man, it’s a difficult situation, because I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. I think the show has made Sansa–not only this season, but in all of the seasons–a better character than Book Sansa. I think Book Sansa, with perhaps the exception of her TWOW chapter, is infuriating in the sense that she doesn’t seem to develop. She still seems very much a ‘child’ to me in the books. That the show has given her more moments of defiance, develop, and ‘agency’ (God, I hate that word) is something I’ll always be eternally grateful to the show for.
What I’m miffed about are things that don’t seem to add up in my mind. She was convinced to go to Winterfell under the banner of ‘vengeance’, and yet, she did absolutely nothing to actually take vengeance. She didn’t plot with anyone, she didn’t manipulate Ramsay, she didn’t make herself a ‘force’ in that household, nothing. She succumbed to being nothing more than a battered wife who’s locked in a room and raped nightly. We get no indication as to her having any ‘plans’ other than to suck it up and wait for….Stannis? Petyr? She never mentions either of the two of them again after Petyr leaves her, nor do we get any clues as to what she’s thinking about any of this. Ok, so, let’s pretend her plan was to reclaim Winterfell. I’m not sure how LEAVING Winterfell helps her to accomplish that, now. I guess I just feel like they sacrificed a lot of her dignity for….nothing? Agh! But there I go. Using that “nothing” word when I’m really trying to avoid it (you know, because I don’t know the whole endgame).
Knight of Storm´s End,
I think I might lose a bit of respect for Doran if he doesn’t chop off Ellaria’s head. He promised he would do just that.
Grand maester giz,
OMG,what are going to do when Grandmaester Jizz quits watching,imagine the devastation !
Dame Pasty,
You’re right. Rewatching that part, she could even had a tall horse, perhaps – a destrier. The tree is atop an incline, so it seems higher than she is.
X
My question is with Stannis gone who is THE bad ass mother*ucker of this show now?
There simply isnt any.
Jaime and Myrcella is just sad. Another good kid taken away needlessly. Like Shireen, she was a decent sort who could have made a difference.
For a major character like Stannis that was the BADASS of the show, the only badass of the show, 101% testosterone level alpha male he deserves better than what he got.
Hoyti Voñ Totiy,
The Hound.
Didn’t Maggi the Frog say something about Cersei’s kids all wearing golden crowns and then golden shrouds? Joffrey was crowned and so was Tommen but unless I fell asleep somewhere Myrcella was never crowned in the show…though GRRM does say prophecies sometimes come true but not the way one thinks they will.
Mark,
Maybe the Messianic wannabe is the one to have no impact?
Grand maester giz,
OK, we get it, you hated it … you are outraged blah blah blah …
Geez … need external validation to make you feel like a big man much?
Give it a rest already!
We will get blind Arya, but we already got Mercy. My bet is that they will take advantage of Blind Beth to reintroduce Warging, and that it will be relevant later in the season.
We didn’t get any Oldtown really in Crows or Dragons: Sam’s storyline happened while going there, and it ended after almost as soon as he arrived. We’ll probably pick up where he picks up in his last Crows chapter and go into his Winter chapter from there.
Assuming that the pirate is Euron (which certainly is a likely guess), then there still is no reason to expect the Iron Island stuff. In the books, Euron has a fleet in that region, anyway. The Kingsmoot backstory is irrelevant to that: remember, the whole point of that was to show Asha/Yara trying to kill the girl and let the queen be born, and failing miserably. That was 2015’s story. However Euron is affecting the plot of whichever main character(s) he is, it probably will not be important that he’s Balon’s successor or even that he’s a Greyjoy.
It’s not clear that the Northern Conspiracy exists in the books: that is fan conjecture. Given this, and given that there no longer are any main characters in Winterfell, I really would not hold my breathe on that one.
I have no idea what show you were watching, but “a passive object in other people’s machinations” is the perfect description of Sansa’s story this season. All she did was get dragged to Winterfell, get raped and abused there, and then run away. It’s identical to her King’s Landing story (in the show), except with rape. Not once did she attempt to do anything proactive, manipulate anyone, or make any use of her supposed political savvy.
Having no story is preferable to having a story that completely shreds your character development.
“Gold will be their crowns” was the prophecy. “Crown” can be synonymous with “head.” “Jack fell down and broke his crown, and Jill came tumbling after.” So gold crowns is definitely a reference to their golden hair, which is significant to the previous parts of the prophecy that implied the king and queen would not share children. Of course, the implications for children of a queen would be the crown that goes with ruling, and that could be true but isn’t guaranteed and could well be a distractor in the prophecy. And it seems not to be true for the show.
I was wondering if they’d show us Trystane & Myrcella getting hitched, and having her crowned a Princess of Dorne. I figured if they did that, then she was dead. When they didn’t, I thought that she might get out of there, until Ellaria pulled a River Song on her.
Sansa was not passive this year: for the first time, she was taking initiative and acting. Yes, it was Littlefinger’s idea: but instead of being a pawn, she was playing along.
Did you sleep through the Theon scenes? The ones where we saw for the first time that Sansa isn’t a jellyfish?
Actually, that is a better description of the first four seasons: Sansa’s character does not grow in any way, it just gets reduced as one-by-one her fantasy views are eliminated. However, they never get replaced: unlike all of the other characters that change trait A to trait B or even become more complex by adding traits, Sansa just gets simpler and simpler, like a barnacle relative to other crustaceans.
Here for the first time we see her trying to do something. It didn’t work: but a failed effort is much better than no effort at all. Having tried and failed will no doubt play a big role in what she does next year. I will bet that we will see trying-and-failing from Sansa in Winter, at least at first.
Dame Pasty,
Wow, thank you very much for your kind words, I really appreciate them.
Er, no, she was a complete pawn. She had no ideas of her own, and never took any initiative.
Sansa has plenty of spine. That’s how she kept it together in King’s Landing. You’re confusing having a spine with insulting people. And nowhere in the Theon scenes does Sansa try to manipulate anyone, do anything proactive, or use political savvy. She is 100% reactive.
You’ll get no argument from me that the show did a terrible job with Sansa’s character development and didn’t at all convey her going from romantic to a cynic. But that doesn’t somehow make this storyline good.
And for all that, she couldn’t manage to keep the corkscrew with her after opening the door.
Pigeon,
Or accomplish anything — not that she ever had a plan to begin with. D&D just wanted Sansa to replace Jeyne Poole, and so they created the thinnest fig leaf possible, and didn’t bother developing the story beyond that.
Sean C.,
I just get the feeling that the entire Winterfell bit this year was to set up for Stannis to defeat himself and be defeated by Brienne in 30 seconds, who needed a reason to be there. It disappointed me, as Alfie Allen, Iwan Rheon and a host of others are great actors. It feels like a bit of a waste of talent. No wonder Littlefinger jumped ship.
Well they certainly went all out for cliffhangers.
Is Myrcella dead? Possibly. Pretty stupid move by the SS though with the heir to Dorne now in their enemies clutches. Please let Ellaria and all the Sand Snakes die soon. They are so cartoonish it’s cheapening the show. Here’s hoping Jaime goes Castamere on the whole of Dorne!
Stannis dying. Think it was edited weirdly and Brienne is getting incresingly more annoying. Has she ever won a fair fight yet?! She seems like a passenger in the story at the moment and not a very interesting one.
Can’t really grumble about anything else. The other plots were all adapted well and executed equally so.
Props to Lena for nailing the walk. That was a long sequence but it built very well and delievered exactly how the book did.
Arya, maybe a bit overly bloody but I guess thats because the tickler/Raff/whoever it was death was pretty tame in comparison.
Theon finally breaks out of the Reek. Goodbye Myranda and we’ll see where him and Sansa end up!
The Wall stuff was spot on. Bit disappoited Thorne was involved but I guess it was inevitable. Really wonder wha Davos is going to do now?!
Myreen. Still think Selmy would have been a better choice to survive and marshal the city with Tyrion and Missandei. But yeah, let’s see whats gonna happen there.
Oh and Bronn lived! Nobody saw that one coming!
TheTouchOfFrost,
I like your point about Brienne having a ‘fair fight’. That has bothered me a bit. I love Gwen Christie, and until this season I completely loved Brienne despite her naive sense of loyalty, but her 2 ‘big’ kills were against already wounded men. She has proven she can hold her own against able-bodied soldiers (Renly’s little event, vs LF’s guards, etc), and her fight with the Hound was a hell of a matched fight, but he was still already weakened from infection. Stannis didn’t put up any resistance, he was just that done with it all. So I feel that it takes away something to kill a sitting duck. Still, it was her vow.
I think the fact is that Ellaria and Grumpy, Dopey, and Thirsty just don’t give a f*ck since they don’t respect Doran and therefore why would they care about Trystane? No loyalty there. I just hope they don’t off Doran who is the only potentially redeemable part of that story, along with Areo and his wife. Would like to see it used.
Assuming we ever see Dorne again, it will be a gigantic crock if the first scene there is anything other than Doran having Ellaria and the Sand Snakes hanged, drawn and quartered, after they murdered Myrcella while she was in Dornish custody, triggering a potential war that will kill thousands and deliberately doing so in a way that would put Doran’s son Trystane in the hands of the Lannisters.
I know quite a few casual unsullied viewers who were really turned off by Jon Snow’s death. Surprisingly both men & women and they’re talking about dropping the show. I’m wondering if my little microcosm will be indicative of a trend. Curious to see if ratings fall at all next season.
I tell them that in the books there’s still some hope he returns… somehow… but it sure doesn’t look like it in the show. I will miss Kit Harington’s handsome face on my TV screen next season. He’ll I’m so pissed I’ve actually considered skipping next season. But since I don’t trust GRRM to finish the story before I die, I’ll likely watch anyway. Just want to see some sort of a conclusion.
Of course, I’d prefer it if the Snow man had a part in that conclusion. What the hell is the point of R+L=J if not?
This is showing up on the IMDB ratings. On one hand, they are very strong: 58% 10’s, with similar percentages for men and women. (That is really, really good.) On the other hand, it is doing nearly 13% 1’s. So, the median is (obviously) 10; however, the male-female balanced average is 8.7: and that is a big difference between average and median, even after you take into account the boundary effect.
Heh, it looked to me like it wasn’t that tough for her…..
I would say the opposite: having the #3 character (and now possibly #2 character 🙁 ) in charge is much, much more satisfying than a tertiary character running the show. Also, it gave Tyrion a full climb back to the top: he killed the depressed drunken wretch and is now Tyrion+ now: he’s bigger than he was 2 years ago now.
The Ellaria situation will get very interesting. She just willingly and brazenly defied her brother-in-law. Is she that set on revenge that she does not care for her own life or for her daughter’s and step-daughter’s lives? Or does she have some other possible ally on which to fall back? The Tyrstane situation could be potentially interesting, too: Jaime “All You Need is Love” Lannister clearly realizes that the young man was completely in love with his daughter and Jaime is not the callow hot-head of Season 1. Trystane, on the other hand, probably will be hell-bent on revenge not just for his fiance’s murder, but also for the defiance against his father. (Yes, #1 will outweigh #2, but #2 will not be irrelevant.)
One thing that this season did was clear a LOT of space for next year. The plotlines surrounding Stannis are done. Whatever GRRM has Theon & Sansa doing in the first part of the book in Stannis’ camp and at the Vale now is obviated: and they can move straight onto whatever it is that they do (or some adapted analog). Brienne has fulfilled an oath, although I think that she still will be off after Sansa again.
And, of course, because we won’t read Winter until long after this is filmed (and probably until after this is televised), it is really tough to predict what we might see. There are a couple of obvious possibilities with plot threads started at the end of Dragons, but I am sure that there are things that do not start (or come together) until pages we have not seen.
Hmmm, and that it was the backdrop for Sansa’s and Theon’s contributions to the actual story counts for nothing?
I’m guessing he’s an excellent liar. And really enjoying it, too.
Nero Martell,
Getting ready for her closeup in Season 6, I think.
I don’t think there’s any space for that subplot anymore, since Dany has already flown off, and I’d guess that
John SparrowEuron will hit the Meereen beaches before too long.Not sure how they’ll get the other two dragons out of that dungeon, but they’ll figure out something.
Uh…Didn’t Davos co-sign a HUGE LOAN from the Iron Bank?
I think he’s gonna get wages garnished big time.
Ginevra,
Oh yes the crown of the head – very likely you are right. More reasonable than Dany leaving Mereen in a white robe and landing in the Dothraki Sea in a blue dress (though I suppose literally Drogon did the landing).
Sean C,
Wimsey,
About Sansa in Winterfell.
Agreed that Sansa character didn’t develop much this season, but at least we got her knowing Bran and Rickon (may) be alive and that Jon was appointed LC. I hope that’s some kind of foreshadowing for here story line in next season. And sure, this season was more or less the same plot as Sansa in KL, but this time maybe she will need to get her shit together and develop? Maybe Brienne will make her a bit more badass 😛
? She got a ton of dynamic development this season. She evolved more this season than she had in the prior four combined. (Of course, she was completely static in the first 3.7 seasons, so that’s not saying a lot!)
Indeed, it’s like she got two gifts from the Wizard of Oz: she now has a functioning brain and a working spine! 😀
Dragon Tender,
Indeed, no: and why would they rehash bad the bad plotlines from Crows and Dragons when trying to tell the Winter story? We might get the YG Winter plotline: but there is absolutely no reason to put in the Crows/Dragons ones.
As for Euron (and having him played as Jack Sparrow would be awesome: but also too derivative!), look for him in Oldtown, not Mereen.
Actually, it was a gray “stained” version of the white dress. It looked blue on TV (probably due to blue lighting), but it’s pretty clearly just grey in some of the stills. A lot of the supposed “instant costume changes” on film and TV actually are due to different lighting effects making the same clothing look different.
It always surprises me that they don’t do more to account for that sort of thing, but I guess that it’s really hard.
Dragon Tender,
I agree, no time likely for the subplots. But if there was, they left the possibilities surprisingly open really…
Wimsey,
Yep sure, she got development and evolving way more than previous seasons – but my point is that we didn’t get to see the result of it really…what we got was her character building up the entire season, some info of Jon and Bran/Rickon, and then the jump with Theon. Hopefully all this building up will end in some kind of result next season. A little bit more Darth Sansa, something we thought we would get more of this season…
All in all, I really enjoyed this season and looking forward to season 6 and 7.
What I do hope for is that GRRM will follow his own heart and write the books as he intended and not fall for some of the changes the show has done just to take an easy route….