The night before the Battle of the Bastards, Davos Seaworth and Tormund Giantsbane had a conversation about the people they served, and how it didn’t really pay off. “Maybe that’s our mistake: believing in kings” said the Onion Knight. “Jon Snow is not a king” replied Tormund.
But things have changed since then, on Game of Thrones. Jon Snow is now very much a king, and not only that, but the actual heir to the Iron Throne. The consequences of him bending the knee to Daenerys still remain to be seen.
Point is, Davos is once again following a monarch, albeit a very different one than Stannis Baratheon, and essentially serving as Jon’s adviser. He’s not a fighter, but his mind is sharp and his loyalty can’t be bought.
Ser Jorah Mormont is in a similar position: although Tyrion Lannister was chosen as Dany’s Hand of the Queen, he’s still one of her trusted advisors and a member of her Queensguard. His motives are different than Davos, since he’s following Daenerys because of the (unrequited) love he feels for her, but after a hard fall from grace and narrowly escaping the greyscale disease, he most certainly won’t betray her ever again.
The odd one out in the trio of characters I’ll talk about in this article is Ser Bronn of the fucking Blackwater. He’s not loyal and he doesn’t do things for love, but for the promise of riches and (eventually) a big castle. After leaving Tyrion to his fate, when it seemed like no one would help the disgraced Lannister to fight Gregor Clegane, he ended up as Jaime Lannister’s companion and right-hand man (quite literally). Bronn didn’t follow Jaime to Winterfell at the end of the seventh season, but I think we haven’t seen the last of him just yet.
Two of them follow leaders and one is after the money, but all three will soon have to deal with the undead problem that is coming from the North.
Will they live to see the end of the war and a new beginning for Westeros? Will Bronn finally get his castle? Or is a tragic fate awaiting for some or all of them? As with previous Endgame articles, I’ll be making educated guesses and predictions for what’s going to be the future of these beloved sidekick characters.
SER DAVOS SEAWORTH
When I read A Clash of Kings, Davos quickly turned into one of my favorite characters. I couldn’t help but to pity him in a way, since he wanted to be loyal to Stannis but that meant doing things he didn’t necessarily agree with, especially when Melisandre was involved.
The inspired casting of Liam Cunningham (truly, what would be of this show without Nina Gold?), and the news that Neil Marshall would be the one to tackle “Blackwater” (the ninth episode of Season 2) prompted me to revisit the director’s Centurion from 2010 and get a small taste of what to expect.
The episode was incredible (even more so when having in mind that the scale and the budget of the show were much smaller back in 2012) but alas, as in the books, the Wildfire prevented Davos from seeing much action and tragically took his son’s life.
In the novels, Davos has seven sons (four of whom die during the Battle of the Blackwater Bay) but I assume the number was reduced both to keep things more manageable and so the role of Shireen Baratheon as Davos’s surrogate daughter of sorts would have more of an impact.
His wife, Marya Seaworth, has so far remained “off-screen” in both mediums. She has been mentioned (and not by name) just a couple of times in the screen adaptation, and I have to admit it’s something that bugs me a bit. Sure enough, Davos can’t just tell Jon he’s taking a break and departing to go see his wife, but he’s been away from home for so long you’d have to wonder if Mrs. Seaworth doesn’t deserve an award for being the most patient person in the Seven Kingdoms. Even small moments such as him sending a letter or money (or both) to his wife would go a long way in letting viewers know the relationship is alive and well, and that Davos still has someone he loves and is looking after her.
It’s perhaps unnecessary, but it’d hardly take up a lot of screen time and in a coming final season that all but guarantees there’ll be no short amount of character deaths, it would be another reason to feel worried about a possible grim fate for Davos.
Davos is currently en route to White Harbor, along with Jon and Dany’s forces. The road to Winterfell should be safe enough, it’s when they reach the Stark castle that things will start to go south for everyone involved.
Even though he admits he’s not much of a fighter, Davos is brave and doesn’t hesitate in taking action when necessary. Luckily, he hasn’t been forced to fight his way out of a bad situation just yet, but that may change when the army of the dead attacks Winterfell.
I wouldn’t be surprised in the least if he ends up sacrificing himself to save someone else (maybe Jon, one of the Stark siblings or Daenerys?), and gets later turned into a wight by the Night King for an extra heartbreak. Other than the dragon Viserion, so far no character the audience may care about has been “zombified” (that we know at least, since a wight Hodor may be around, waiting for his appearance). It wouldn’t be a happy ending for the Onion Knight, but it’d be a bold move from the screenwriters and the pulling of our heartstrings would be guaranteed.
Davos could also die later in the season, during the battle at King’s Landing. It wouldn’t be any less tragic, but it’d be also ironic in a way since he doesn’t feel any love whatsoever for the city, despite it’s the place where he was born. Twice he has eluded death in there during the show’s run, not counting all the times he had to avoid the Royal Fleet during his years as a smuggler, so third time could be the charm, so to speak.
If this happens, Salladhor Saan’s joke could turn prophetic in the sense he could turn up to gather Davos’s bones and deliver them to Marya. Salladhor is such a minor character he has only appeared (briefly) in three episodes, but I trust most people will remember about him.
The best outcome for him is not only to survive the war, but also to be on the winning side by the time everything is said and done. If Daenerys becomes sole queen or marries Jon, then it’s to be expected that Tyrion remains the Hand of the King and Davos won’t hold that position, but he could remain as an adviser or be given the command of either the Royal Fleet or the Master of Coin position. After all, he did help to find the coin for Stannis’s campaign and has more than enough political savvy, not to mention he’d be relatively safe, not having to deal with weapons or find himself in a battlefield anymore.
Should he choose instead to go back home to his wife, I would expect him to receive a fair reward for his service, at least enough coin to retire and live peacefully, or even a new house. It’s a fate Ser Barristan would’ve derided, since he wanted to die as a knight, but I doubt the Onion Knight would reject that kind of gift.
SER JORAH MORMONT
The story of the former lord of Bear Island has been full of ups and downs. You just have to give him this much: no matter how hard life punches him down, he always finds a way to get up and keep going.
I was very happy to see Iain Glen during the first season of the show (and in the following seasons since then) since I’m rather fond of his performances in the Resident Evil films. In those he’s a big ham and he chews up the scenery like it’s nobody’s business, but it’s the total opposite when it comes to playing Jorah. Certainly, to embody different characters is literally his job as an actor, but many performers out there are rather one-note or struggle when trying to convey certain emotions.
When Barristan finds out about Jorah’s betrayal and Dany banishes him from Meereen, you can feel his hurt and regret. The second time he’s expelled from the city is even worse, he doesn’t even argue about it, the look in his eyes say everything.
Any less than that, and the moment he finally returns to Daenerys’s service in Season 7 wouldn’t have felt as important, despite lasting for less than a minute. Glen sells it, and I couldn’t help but to cheer when Jorah and Dany share a hug.
You wouldn’t expect such a performance from someone who attacks people with his tentacle fingers in a zombie movie, is what I’m saying.
Like Davos, Jorah had a handful of close calls during the show’s run, but luck has been on his side. Most recently, Sam cured him of a disease that otherwise would’ve consumed him, and he also managed to survive the wight hunt beyond the Wall. To come this far in a story that has no shortage of violent deaths is quite an achievement, so if Jorah’s destined to die in the final season, he deserves to go out with a bang.
After fighting the army of the dead, he knows what to expect from the wights and won’t be taken by surprise when the White Walkers arrive to attack Winterfell. I would bet he’s going to survive the first major battle of Season 8, so Team Dany is mostly intact for the showdown at King’s Landing (if anything, I don’t think poor Grey Worm will survive, but I could be wrong. A happy ending for him and Missandei would be nice, but then again, this is GoT). And not only that, but I’m guessing he’s going to have a one-on-one fight against one of the Walkers. He already fought a Dothraki and won, so offing a White Walker too would be quite the addition to his record, and he would join the small group of people who have managed to kill one of such creatures (currently Sam, Jon and Meera).
If the Walker either beats Jorah or manages to gravely injure him before dying, then that’s one hell of a way to go out. Not succumbing to a disease or getting killed in a fighting pit by a nameless slave, but facing a creature that was commonly believed to exist only in stories for children.
Assuming the Bear Knight makes it out alive from Winterfell, King’s Landing could be the place where his story wraps for good. My main problem with this scenario is that I don’t think there’s a clear opponent for Jorah here. The Mountain will surely fight either Sandor (because GET HYPE) or Arya, so that leaves us with Bronn (!) or Jaime, if the latter decides to ditch his honor for love and go back to Cersei’s side.
I favor the Bronn option, because even if Jaime changing his mind yet again is believable, I feel it would negate the growth of his character, being finally free of Cersei’s influence that is. The conversation with Olenna showed he’s aware of the horrible deeds he has done for love, and that it may be too late to change his ways, but then the finale set us up for some change in his character. He’s following Brienne’s advice (fuck loyalty!) and is doing the right thing for once. It would be a shame if that is reversed.
Fighting the former sellsword makes sense in my opinion. They’re both Season 1 veterans and beloved characters, so the audience will be once again divided in who they are going to root for. Bronn fights dirty but Jorah has years of experience and has fought against a wide variety of enemies, both alive and undead, so some cheap tactics aren’t going to faze him. And yet, I think Bronn could win the fight for dramatic purposes. We’re in for some big losses and not all the heroes are bound to keep their plot armor. The final season’s gotta have one nasty bite so the final victory doesn’t come off as easily earned.
Jaime being the opponent would be an interesting juxtaposition of lovers fighting for their queens, though one has been apparently discarded and the other’s love wasn’t meant to be. While I give the Bronn scenario a 50/50 possibility for each fighter, in this one I think the balance would tip in Jaime’s favor, since he’s one of the main characters (whereas Jorah is supporting one) and because such an action would definitely confirm that he’s irredeemable. Of course, when we take into account that Jaime lacks his right hand and his fighting skills are poorer as a result, he’d need a lot of luck or the unexpected help of someone else to win the round.
Jorah making it to the very end isn’t very likely, I feel it in my bones, but I would definitely be glad if it happens. If this turns out to be the case, I sense that Jorah could become the commander of Dany’s Queensguard, and follow Selmy’s footsteps in a way, remaining a fierce and skilled knight despite his old age. His entry in the White Book (if it still exists after the war) could be perhaps unmatchable, considering all his deeds in the name of his queen.
BRONN
Keeping Bronn around has been one of the best decisions the showrunners have made. He went MIA in the novels (and it remains to be seen if he’s ever coming back, considering he’s settled down and is currently living large in his own castle) but the promises of riches and a fancy place to live haven’t materialized yet in the adaptation, so he has gone nowhere.
I’ve praised both Cunningham and Glen’s acting chops, and Flynn’s not getting any less. From the moment he showed up in the first season of Game of Thrones, he turned into a fan favorite. Bronn’s not afraid to speak his mind and has such a big sense of humor that it’s no surprise he became one of Tyrion’s best friends at the time. Jerome radiates charisma and has some killer comedic timing, but also knows how to turn his character into a serious threat. Despite his clownish attitude, we shouldn’t forget Bronn isn’t a good person but someone who would kill a baby for the right price, no questions asked.
Keeping it true to the nature of sellswords, Bronn’s loyalty doesn’t lie with people but with the money. He was Tyrion’s friend up to the moment the so-called “Imp” found himself in some deep shit, and Bronn had to choose between fighting the Mountain or marrying Lollys. Although he made some good points (“Aye, I’m your friend…and when have you ever risked your life for me?”), still the sellsword preferred to not risk it, even if it meant that Tyrion would die.
Then he trained and followed Jaime, facing even greater dangers than during his time with Tyrion. Just surviving the battle against Dany and saving Jaime from drowning should make him eligible for one of the biggest castles available. And yet, when Jaime departed to Winterfell, Bronn didn’t follow him. We don’t know if Jaime asked him to, but I’m assuming the son of “you wouldn’t know him” chose to end their partnership, as he said after Daenerys roasted them quite literally: “Dragons are where our partnership ends. I’m not gonna be around when those things start spitting fire on King’s Landing.”
Either that, or he decided to stay in the queen’s good graces, rather than go to the north to freeze, fight zombies and possibly part with the chance of ever getting a reward for his services. As we saw in the Season 7 finale (“The Dragon and the Wolf”), he was still in King’s Landing, helping Jaime to prepare everything for the political summit, debating about cocks and telling Tyrion that he’s just fine, looking after himself (hard to say if jokingly or not).
To me it’s clear that he doesn’t intend to follow Jaime, or we would have seen two horses riding to Winterfell instead of only one.
Despite not ever interacting with Cersei on-screen (and I’m not expecting that to change in the final season since Jerome Flynn and Lena Headey avoid each other on set for personal reasons), I think Bronn will be involved in preparing the defense of the city and will possibly fight alongside his fellow sellswords of the Golden Company when the time comes.
One of my predictions is that he’s going to fight (and possibly kill) Jorah Mormont, but there are other possible candidates, including Grey Worm, Beric Dondarrion and Tormund Giantsbane. Each one of them would probably give the sellsword a hard time, and any death would be really sad for the fans (especially if it’s Tormund), but there’s another fight that I think would be rather dramatic, and that is against Brienne and Pod.
Bronn doesn’t have a history with Brienne, so I don’t think he’d care much about fighting her, but Pod is one of his friends from the Tyrion days, and the squire’s loyalties lie with the Maid of Tarth.
As it happened with the fight against the Hound, this could be a rather epic combat, a “what if” situation that I don’t think would happen in the novels, but wouldn’t feel out of place in the screen adaptation. Honestly, I don’t think Brienne would lose the match, but Pod could very well bite it: Bronn could put his feelings aside and kill him to provoke Brienne or Podrick could suddenly intervene to take a hit meant for her. If the latter happens, Bronn could feel surprised or stunned, and an enraged Brienne could off him while he’s distracted.
A fight with Jaime is also possible, should he choose to remain in Dany’s side, but wouldn’t be much of a match. Bronn easily disarmed Jaime when they were training, so a fight using swords with an edge could easily go really bad for the Kingslayer. As Bronn himself said “If you fight with an edge blade, I’ll have to. And if I fight with an edge blade, I’ll have no one left to pay me.” (Season 4, Episode 2 “The Lion and the Rose”).
That said, Jaime could be lucky, or he could manage to whack his former partner’s face with his golden hand.
The boring (of sorts) but crowd-pleasing alternative to all the possible violent ends is that Bronn makes good on his promise of staying away, doesn’t get into any important conflict and makes it to the end unscathed, but that’s a bit doubtful in my opinion. He’s already been involved in some major battles, and he’s skipping the biggest one yet?
Bronn could also decide to help Tyrion and his friends, to make up for abandoning him to his fate in Season 3, though it would feel somewhat out of character for the sellsword to do something out of the kindness of his heart, if there’s any. Tyrion would have to make good on his promise of topping whatever Cersei’s offer is.
Nonetheless, if he lives to see the end of the Great War, I do hope he finally gets his long-desired castle. He may be an evil bastard with no conscience and no heart, but I’ll be damned if he isn’t one of the most memorable characters to come from the imagination of George R.R. Martin and brought to life so perfectly by the screenwriters and the performance of Jerome Flynn.
The way I see it, none of these three characters have a clear path ahead, and there’s a lot we can speculate about. They may be secondary players in the Game of Thrones, but all three have their share of passionate fans who no doubt are expecting a satisfying conclusion to their stories. If it depended on me, I would probably go easy on all of them, since I am a big softy and a part of me doesn’t want to see these characters meeting a cruel end. I certainly don’t envy the writers’ position of having to slay some of their darlings.
With only six episodes to go and a lot of ground to cover, it’s going to be hard for the writers to give each character a worthy sendoff. Osha and Jojen Reed, and even the Waif spring to mind when I think in disappointing deaths, and there are really divisive ones like Barristan or Stannis (which were very well made in my opinion), but the show hits the target more often than it misses.
And so we finish with another round of predictions, and we inch ever closer to the final season of Game of Thrones. It’s still months away from us, but time moves faster than it seems and soon we’ll see for ourselves how right (or how wrong!) we were in all of our theories.
HODOR!
It never occurred to me that Ser Davos was married.
He always came across as something of a loner, but never a womaniser.
And why is he called “The Onion Knight”? It was never explained.
It was in S2. He smuggled in onions to save Stannis while he was being sieged at Dragonstone during Robert’s Rebellion.
None of these THREE characters have a clear path ahead? I would say that applies for ALL the characters – which is why we have so much fun with speculating! 😉 Nevertheless thanks for your detailed analysis. I enjoyed it and might add two or three points. As much as I would love to have Davos around all of this ends, I fear for him as well. There was so much talk from him in season 7, pointing to his ripe age, that he is not a fighter, that it’s better to be a coward for a moment than to be dead, that it is simply impossible not to fear for him. It would be a hard blow for Jon as well, losing the last of the father figures he has, which would be exactly the reason to do this. Also: “Heroes do stupid things and they die.” Dany said to Tyrion. But these “heroes” she named didn’t actually die. Besides Drogo (who died on an infested scratch he inflicted upon himself, which was not heroic at all but plain stupid!) Jorah, Daario “and this Jon Snow” might be doing stupid things from time to time but are pretty much alive and kicking. And although they can qualify as one kind of heroes, there are quite a few different examples of heroism in this story. For example the ones who walk straight and tall to a wedding with their rapist, the ones who hold doors or the ones who go straight into the lioness den to negotiate. Davos is perfect material for this kind of heroism, so yes, I fear, his time is up. On the other hand: Not all need to die. There will be plenty to do for those remaining “to clean up as much of the shit as they can”, and Davos is perfect material for that as well. So I sincerely hope, that he will be around, so Jon and Dany will have someone who keeps them grounded and be the perfect source for education advices!
As much as my heart breaks to admit it (*sigh*, Iain Glen! If you haven’t seen him as Jack Ryan, go for it!): Jorah is a goner for sure. He is the Queen’s knight in shining armor, the Lancelot in this piece. And I am sticking my head out now and say it out loud: He will die saving Jon, making sure his Khaleesi won’t be alone. After all his only reason left for living is to serve his Khaleesi. Yes, I know, I know, this is more a wishful thinking considering this is GoT, than detailed analyzing, but I just can’t shake off this feeling…
It’s by the way the same feeling, that tells me Bronn is a goner too. And by that I don’t mean he is leaving the country. As you pointed out correctly, he said: “Dragons are where our partnership ends. I’m not gonna be around when those things start spitting fire on King’s Landing.” So, why is he still around in episode 7? Why is he preparing the cities defenses, albeit knowing that this is null and void should Dany decide to attack with all her dragons? Just for the comic relief? Just because Jerome Flynn did a terrific job? I don’t think so. Bronn might be a cynic sellsword, looking out only for himself and as that the perfect example of he harsh conditions in this war torn Westeros. But I think he is also more. Yes, he left Tyrion, yes he took Cersei’s Money, but I don’t think you can really blame him for that. As a sellsword you have to know which fights you can win and this was not such a fight. He had an interesting conversation with Jamie about this, when they trained together. If anything, Tyrion even thinking about this, was simply desperate and kind of stupid. But Bronn didn’t betray Tyrion and he didn’t sell him out. Neither in this case nor later. He was given the perfect opportunity to get rich beyond his imagination if he had told Cersei that Tyrion was coming to town – alone. Yet, he didn’t. Why not? As I see it: Bronn might be a die hard sellsword, looking out just for himself, but he is not a man without honour. “Dragons are where our partnership ends.” So Bronn saves Jamie from a freaking dragon, just to declare that? I don’t think so. He likes the Lannister boys. AND he knows on which side his bread is buttered. Daenerys has dragons, Tyrion, the North and a huge army at her back. The clock for Cersei’s reign is ticking AND she won’t be pleased at all when she realizes that Jamie is really gone. It’s not hard to figure out whom she will hold responsible for that. So if he is not taking the next ship to the other side of the world, he will follow Jamie North, and he will fight by his side, not knowing if and what he will be paid for that, which is exactly the reason why he will die. Saving Tyrion or Pod is my guess. “I’m not gonna be around when those things start spitting fire on King’s Landing.” Prophetic words.
it’s hard for me to imagine a way Davos could die. there’s no use in offing him in battle, as his fighting skills may not be worth such a scene. IF D&D really need to break our hearts, i hope they do it with style by giving the Onion Knight a peaceful end like they gave it to the other great advisor in the show: Aemon Targaryen.
just because, winter is not always the friend of men of ripe age…
about Jorah, i tend to disagree about the selection of possible opponents in a possible KL fighting scene. Euron would be an excellent choice. there’s some minor tension built between both since the Dragonpit meeting, if i remember right: when Euron gave his “let’s go back to our islands” advice to Dany, Jorah’s hand was moving to his sword for a second for security reasons. and i’m sure he sees the treacherous clown Euron actually is.
a better choice of course will be brought to KL by this mentioned Euron: the Golden Company, more precisely their commander. Jorah has been a member of the GC, and i can not remember any details of his retirement that say there are no issues left between the GC and Jorah.
i also have to disagree on the Bronn predictions. i’m pretty sure his days in the service of the Queen are counted.
Cersei: “did you punish him?
Jamie: “whom?”
Cersei: “Bronn.”
right after Jamie’s clandestine meeting with Tyrion which was arranged by Bronn…
with Jamie off north, he hasn’t got any mentor left in KL now, and Cersei does not really need him. she has the zombieberg. if Bronn is smart, he’ll get his ass out there ASAP. and smart he is.
i expect him to do something he has estimated being a dumb move before: being loyal to the few persons who have ever treated him like a friend – without payment. all of them are in the north. Tyrion, Pod and Jamie.
i want his death to be boring and peaceful. on his own castle (be it a rebuilt Castamere, for tinfoil reasons). or at least the way he got an idea of a nice death explained to him and others in the Vale: 80 years old, in his own bed, his belly full of wine – etc.
BeardedOnion,
Almost. During the Seige of StormsEnd, in Roberts rebellion, Stannis was besieged by the Tyrell forces, shortly after the sacking of Kings Landing, so this was close to wars end. Stannis, in his ever stubborn manner, refused to yield the castle. Death was rife, and the remaining forces and commoners were down to eating rats, and possibly even each other (Donal Noyes arm was alledgedly eaten during the seige). Enter Davos the Smuggler, with a small boat filled to the brim with onions and salt fish. The onions and fish allowed Stannis and his remaining garrison to survive until Eddard stark came to break the Tyrell Seige. Stannis, ever just, took Davos’s fingers from his left hand as punishment for smuggling, but raised him to a Knight as thanks for saving the lives of thousands.
“Other than the dragon Viserion, so far no character the audience may care about has been “zombified”….”
—————
Karsi 😢
“But things have changed since then, on Game of Thrones. Jon Snow is now very much a king, and not only that, but the actual heir to the Iron Throne. The consequences of him bending the knee to Daenerys still remain to be seen.”
__________
Hmmm. I thought Jon’s no longer a king; he’s just Warden of the North.
PS I wonder if pissed off Northerners will look again to Sansa Stark after learning that Jon sacrificed the North’s sovereignty for his “foreign whore” girlfriend – or if they find out that it isn’t “Ned Stark’s blood [that] runs through his veins” but Rhaegar Targaryen’s?
yep! her, and the ice bear. i love ice bears.
I think it’s 100% clear Jon will hand Sansa the title right away. Sansa being the ruler of the North has had plenty of setup and she’s had time to settle, Jon seems destined to rule all of Westeros.
Davos: If Davos’s wife were mentioned, it would make him look bad for constantly leering at Missandei. Rather than dying stupidly by getting in the way of somebody’s sword, I’d like to see Davos get back to sea. After all, isn’t Euron Greyjoy moving in with his fleet?
Jorah: If he’s killed in battle, I don’t see how it needs to be by some major character; going down in a flood of wights would be dramatic and tragic (see Hodor), too. In keeping with the “bittersweet” ending meme (sorry for bringing it up again!), Jorah surviving and becoming commander of the Queen’s Guard would give his remaining years of life the constant misery of seeing his beloved Khaleesi consorting (heh, heh) with Jon Snow. So that could work.
Ser Bronn of the Blackwater: If there’s one thing we’ve learned in recent years, it’s that crime pays! Ethics are for schmucks! I see Bronn falling in with the Golden Company, who will more than likely turn on Cersei at some point, probably to follow Euron who actually recruited them. Of course Euron’s going to turn on Cersei – he doesn’t need to win for her to access her … er, you know. And Bronn doesn’t need to die, but he probably won’t get that castle he’s already paid for so many times.
Jorah will be head of the QueensGuard
Davos will die facing down Euron’s Fleet and Ser Bronn of the Blackwater will fall at Arya’s hand.
death by chickenfire,
• BTW, just reading your screen name makes me chuckle.
• Also, for some reason, it occurred to me that death by chickenfire would be the perfect end for Frankengregor. Not sure how that would be depicted, but GoT: Make it so!
(Cpt. J-L Picard)
Tryptych,
He smuggled onions (and other food) to Stannis starving forces during Robert’s rebellion. That’s how he became a knight in the first place, Stannis knighted him for that, but cut his fingers for smuggling.
There’s a lot on that in the books (and of everything else). He took the onion sigil for his house, and his sons hate it (in the books he lost half his sons at the blackwater, but he still has 4) because they want to see him as a knight, as a lord, and forget about his origin. That’s why Davos took the sigil, to remember who he is, in a way, where he came from.
And yes, he’s married. In the books he reminisces quite a lot about how he wish the wars would end so he could go back to his wife and raise his remaining sons.
There’s a lot more of that too in the books (men wishing to go back to their wives)… Like Kevan Lannister, in the books he doesn’t die in the sept, he’s murderer by Varys basically because he was “Too good” and would make the Targaryen’s invasion of Westeros too difficult. His last thoughts are for his wife. Was a very sad moment.
But I digress!
I used to like Bronn until he took a shot at Drogon; he can burn, actually I hope he does get singed to a crisp by one of Daenys dragons.
You, and all of Jerome Flynn’s neighbors! I recall him complaining that even the postman wouldn’t speak to him after he “shot that dragon.”
Thank you Morgoth for another great prediction article!
I myself can’t be entirely dismissive of Bronn joining Jaime heading North. While viewers didn’t see him leave King’s Landing with Jaime, I can definitely see Bronn catching up with him, especially if it means joining the team with dragons instead of fighting against them. I’m more curious how Dany will receive Jaime (and potentially Bronn) since one man tried to kill her and the other tried to kill Drogon.
And I have to agree with you in that I don’t really see Jorah making it to the end *cue the ugly cry.* I also believe Bronn will die as well. Davos is a wildcard for me. He’s no fighter as he has said before so perhaps this will enable him to survive…. or it can also mean his death if he’s protecting someone. We should really start a GoT dead pool 😂
Ten Bears,
Yup! I think in The Dragon and the Wolf Jon had sent a raven to Sansa signing it “Warden of the North” and she insinuated that the Lords of the North won’t be happy about it.
zandru,
Note re: Jorah – Both San and Jon, upon first meeting Jorah, commented that they’d served under his father, NW Lord Commander Jeor Mormont. Sam, at great personal risk, saved Jorah’s life solely because Jorah was Jeor’s son.
Jorah has sought to live down the dishonor he brought to House Mormont. He’s mentioned it throughout, e.g., to Dany, to Sam, and to Jon. He told Sam he was “dead to” his family; he told Jon he’d forfeited the right to wield House Mormont’s ancestral sword Longclaw.
If Jorah doesn’t die, a fitting ending for him would be for him to seek absolution by joining the NW.
(PS Though I’m not a book reader, I’ve seen references to a books! scene that didn’t make it into the show in which a mortally wounded Jeor tells Sam his dying wish is for Jorah to join the NW. Or something like that. )
It might then be appropriate after the Night Kingdom is defeated (if this actually happens) and Jorah survives (if this happens) to return Longclaw to him. The teevie series admits of no Targaryen Valerian swords, but the book does, so Jon (if he survives) need not settle for common steel.
I agree with you about Jeor’s wish for Jorah to join the Night’s Watch. That would be a fitting end for him, if not the King’s/Queen’s Guard.
There were scenes in prior episodes in which Sansa described Northern Lords as “bloody weather vanes.”
Here’s the portion of S7e7 about Sansa receiving the raven scroll which (by enlarging a screen shot, shows it) was signed by Jon Snow, “Warden of the North”:
LF: “It’s not easy for ravens to fly in these storms.
Perhaps Jon tried to send word earlier.”
Sansa: “No, this is the way he is, the way he’s always been. He never asked for my opinion. Why would he start now?”
LF: “I can’t believe he’d surrender the Northern crown without consulting you.”
Sansa: “This is his writing, his signature. He pledged to fight for Daenerys Targaryen. He’s bent the knee.”
LF: “I’ve heard gossip that the Dragon Queen is quite beautiful.”
Sansa: “What does that have to do with anything?”
LF: “Jon is young and unmarried. Daenerys is young and unmarried.”
Sansa: “You think he wants to marry her?”
LF: “An alliance makes sense. Together, they’d be difficult to defeat.”
Sansa?: “He was named King in the North.”
LF?: “He can be unnamed.”
Sansa: “Even if I wanted to, Arya would never go along. She always loved Jon far more than she ever loved me, and she’d kill anyone who betrayed her family…”
did we ever see living chickens in GoT? i’m not sure, but i love your idea of Zombieberg stumbling and falling and being roasted by half eaten chickens with bright blue eyes… sort of meta-Cleganebowl: “you know what is coming for you. all the chickens i didn’t eat up.”
i love the current screen name so much more than my previous “Chicken Generated Image”, and i think i’ll have a gravatar sigil for season eight discussions. some Wienerwald-style chicken (black on yellow like the House-Clegane-shirt i’m going to buy online for my job as a dogsitter) with a motto. something like “the rooster that will roast the world”.
(of course, i appreciate suggestions of better mottos.)
zandru,
As long as we’re on the subject of VS swords, and Targaryen VS weapons…
Mini-Rant + Theory
• Jon reluctantly accepting Longclaw from Jeor, and then later offering Longclaw back to Jorah, illustrated society’s respect for traditional entitlement of a house to its ancestral VS sword regardless of the misdeeds of one of its members. It’s one thing for a house member to voluntarily bequeath its VS to someone else; you don’t get to just steal it.
It still irks me that Tywin ripped off House Stark’s ancestral VS sword Ice and reforged it into two Lannister swords (“Oathkeeper” and “Widow’s Wail”). It irks me even more that Brienne (and Jaime) haven’t at least offered to return their VS swords to House Stark, the rightful owner. (It puzzled me why Brienne offered Oathkeeper back to Jaime in S6: If she “fulfilled” her oath by rescuing Sansa, then at least offer to return the sword to Sansa Stark.)
• I recently read a compelling theory published last year after S7e4 aired, that Arya’s VS dagger actually belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen, and Robert pilfered it from Rhaegar’s corpse after bashing in his chest on the Trident. I think this is the article with that show-only theory….
https://mashable.com/2017/08/12/dagger-rhaegar-targaryen-arya/
This theory makes sense, and might give a reason for Arya to give that dagger to Jon Snow aka Aegon Targaryen.
• I’m not sure how the number and provenance of VS swords are treated in the books. I was hoping Visenya Targaryen’s VS sword “Dark Sister” would show up after Arya mentioned it in her show-only chat with Tywin.
btw, Bronn heading north will avoid any possible Lena/Jerome conflict on set.
Ten Bears,
Didn’t the GC have Blackfyre at one point in time? Would be an easy way of getting Aegon the Conqueror’s sword into the story if the leader of them still has it. Then maybe we could have an easy exchange of Longclaw without John losing a valyrian steel weapon.
One mention I specifically remember is Melisandre asking him if he loves his wife just before she gives birth to the smoke baby. It has been brought up very little though and no mention of their lands on Cape Wrath he received from Stannis in the book.
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I personally think all three of these characters is more likeable on the show. I also think their fates could be different on the show because none of them feel like required endgame pieces. Meaning, they can live or die without it drastically effecting the story, but for viewers it would strike a chord with either choice.
What I’ve been expecting…
Davos – I’m about 95% certain he will live so if he doesn’t that will be one of the shockers. I’m not nearly as certain for book!Davos. I believe he’s doing what he is now because he cares about the future of Westeros. If he lives I don’t think he’d continue to serve whomever but ‘retire’ and go home.
Jorah – he dead. He’s going down defending Daenerys is one manner or another. He’s made it more than clear that he’d die for her and that’s what he’ll do. Whether it’s fighting wights, a WW or a living person, I bet he gets a few deathbed words in with her before he kicks it. Emotional stuff.
Bronn – I still believe he joins Jaime not far up the road from KL. I think they had Jaime ride out alone simply because it was a better scene to show him turning his back on Cersei by himself. Bronn will know he’ll get nothing from Cersei, and while he’s never done anything that doesn’t benefit himself, I think he’ll recognize that anyone that means anything to him is riding for the North. It would be his chance to get on the side of the dragons as well. Bronn doesn’t really have a nemesis and he doesn’t reeeally owe Tyrion or Jaime more saving. Still, I kind of expect him to die fighting alongside one or the other, or Pod.
death by chickenfire,
I’ve been (jokingly) rooting for the appearance of wight chickens for quite some time. Of course that would be patently absurd…but no more absurd than a bored Sandor throwing rocks at a throng of wights encircling the Snow Patrol.
Nice predictions for the characters. Really enjoyed reading this. It was also nice to read about the actors really immersing themselves with their roles that their impact on the audience is tremendous.
Leaning and quite agreeing on Davos surviving as mentioned, either retiring to his wife/family or as advisor to a leader planning progressive changes in Westeros; Jorah dying heroically (but I really don’t want him to perish) or left with an ongoing position that still is related to rebuilding or sustaining his honor, and Bronn picking a side other than money that would make or break him – spoiler-ish…him naming his *cough* after *cough* in the book may be intended as a joke but it still is telling of how someone may have affected him after all.
death by chickenfire,
That’s why I also think he’s going north after Jaime.
Bronn hasn’t seen the wight in the Dragonpit, so he probably won’t know how to kill them when he meets some on the road. I hope he meets Jaime before he meets the wights.
death by chickenfire,
“i love the current screen name so much more than my previous “Chicken Generated Image”
———-
Oh great! Now I’m stuck with a mental image of a dying Lyanna Stark handing off an infant Chicken Generated Image and whispering: “His real name is… death by chickenfire.”
Ten Bears,
Yes! Thank you for the refresher. I can’t believe she let LF know Jon bent the knee! I was mixing up the conversation she had with Arya and how not everyone will wait around for Jon like Ghost.
And TOTALLY agree with you about Ice!! I do like how Brienne is sworn to Sansa and is protecting her with a part of Ice but it’s infuriating that the Starks, as far as the viewers are concerned, don’t know Oathkeeper came from Ice. I think in the books, Jaime doesn’t even know the sword came from Ice.
Viz,
Yes! It was last with Aegor Rivers who founded the GC. And coincidentally, his half brother Brynden Rivers last had Dark Sister…. and of course he eventually becomes the Three-Eyed Raven. I was hoping to get some hint of dark sister when bran finally met the 3ER, but alas, it didn’t happen. There’s still hope for Blackfyre though!
Dark Sister,
Who knows… Maybe they have Dark Sister as well!
Alt Shift X has a great vid on where all of the known Valyrian steel weapons are, maybe at least these two will resurface.
Does Brienne (in the show) have any idea that “Oathkeeper” was once part of Ice, the Stark Family Sword? I didn’t think so. And I agree – the Starks don’t know that Ned’s sword was cut up and hammered** into two different swords, the one Brienne uses and a “baby sword” for Joffrey. We haven’t seen Joffery’s sword again since his wedding, have we? Nobody in their right mind, especially a Lannister, would inter a Valyrian Steel sword with its former owner.
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The show has Ice being melted down and re-cast. That isn’t how Valyrian steel works, and I don’t think Westeros had the technology to totally melt down steel so that it flowed like water.
Jaime told Brienne that (what she will call) Oathkeeper “was reforged from Ned Stark’s sword” when he gave it to her. While he didn’t specifically say “Ice,” Brienne knows that Valyrian steel is so rare that a Valyrian steel sword of Ned’s would be the “family sword.”
Jaime carried Widow’s Wail all of S7. Remember Olenna bringing it up in her death scene?
zandru,
Yes, when Jaime gives her the sword he says explicitly “You will be guarding Ned Stark’s daughters with Ned Stark’s own steel.” or something of the like.
Correct on the reforging technique. I think that was just the show’s way of reinforcing that Ice was gone by literally “melting” it.
Reforging Ice into Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail is book canon. Although, instead of some old dude Tywin brought in to do it, he tasked Tobho Mott with it. Tobho of course was the smith that Gendry worked for. In the books he trained to smith in Qohor and specifically said that he can work Valyrian steel, but not specifically create the steel. His abilities are one reason why people theorized that Gendry would return and be able to reforge Valyrian steel, having learned it from Tobho.
Thanks! No, I’d forgotten both. And yes, it is odd that Brienne hasn’t said anything to Sansa. I can see how she wouldn’t have wanted to say anything to Arya!
Sure, but “reforging” doesn’t necessarily refer to a complete meltdown. Given that Valyrian steel is a type of folded and refolded metal, like Damascus steel, if one were to melt it down into a liquid, you’d lose all of its “magical” properties. Cutting, then drawing and hammering it into new shapes would preserve the folds. I agree with Viz that it was just a cinematographer choice to symbolize total destruction of the Stark heirloom and to also look cool.
zandru,
I don’t know that it makes any sense but that is what was written that Tobho did. He melted it down and even tried unsuccessfully to tint the steel but the color was absorbed by the molten metal. I believe the mention of him being one of the few knowing how to work Valyrian steel is enough to say that he can reforge the existing steel to retain its properties. The ability to create more of the steel itself with magical and special properties is what has been lost, supposedly.
Ten Bears,
I also thought the same thing only I was thinking of ‘The Spoils of War’ as a reference of Bobby B taking it from Rhaegar after his death.
Viz,
And aren’t there Direwolves on the handle representing the Stark girls?
I will have to check the quote, but I don’t believe that totally melting the steel was ever mentioned, just softening it enough to work and to try to infuse color. I’ll get back with you on that. I’m thinking it was a Tyrion chapter…
“I would bet he’s going to survive the first major battle of Season 8, so Team Dany is mostly intact for the showdown at King’s Landing (if anything, I don’t think poor Grey Worm will survive, but I could be wrong.”
I believe Jorah would survive and make it to the final showdown at KL. He’ll die as he lived, loyal to his Queen, and if Varys (a known Targaryen supporter) decides to switch sides and pledge his allegiance to Jon (the rightful heir). A semi-war ensues, then Jorah might be one of the casualties on Dany’s team, fighting for his Queen’s right to rule. Dany would then proceed to fulfill her promise to Varys in S7, by burning him alive and her final words onscreen will be dracarys then screen fades to black. The end. Or not… and everyone gets to live happily ever after, now that would be shocking.
Carole H,
I think they are actually stylized Lions as the swords were forged through Tywin’s request. The Lannister family had lost their ancestral sword long ago and these two were meant to be a replacement for it. There’s no way Tywin would have ordered swords with direwolves.
I agree with you, although Davos is pretty close to his book counterpart, just increase the charm and personality a bit… Bronn and Jorah are quite different. It is one of the interesting adaptations of GOT how many people love the latter two so much due to the performances and the actors chosen… when I read the books (pre-show) these two were bit players / low on my list of likable characters. Bronn is a straight up thug and has little to no redeemable attributes (his poor wife and her family!) and never liked Jorah much at all either, always gave me the creeps, completely understood why Daenerys keep him at arms length (any young girl would!).
BeardedOnion,
Bearded Onion:
Thanks for that!
Viz,
Absolutely Viz, Tywin wouldn’t but the romantic in me likes to think that Jaimie remodeled it for Brienne on her quest🙄
zandru,
Yeah, I don’t have the books in front of me at work to read exact phrasing either. I’m no blacksmith but I would agree that what little they did show being done in that little montage didn’t really make much sense even for regular steel (just melt and dump in an open form). On the other hand, I don’t think the process was described very precisely in the books either. I do believe the IDEA that George was attempting to convey is that very few people in the world have the training to reforge existing Valyrian steel and Tobho was one of them, even if the ‘how’ wasn’t very accurate. It’s specifically mentioned that nobody is known to have the knowledge or ability to create more of it. What mass they have being what they have is the important information.
Carole H,
If there had been direwolves on Oathkeeper’s handle, that sure would’ve come in handy in S4e10 when Brienne tried to convince Arya she was commissioned by her mother to bring her home, and when Sandor called out Brienne for carrying a Lannister gold sword.
Ten Bears,
Good point 👍
Clob,
I agree with all three of your predictions.
Indeed! On the other hand, should the swords eventually return to the Starks (if any survive), they could easily have the old hilts knocked off (as Jeor did) and replaced with appropriate direwolves. No magical reforging required!
Okay! Here are the words, from “Storm of Swords” Tyrion IV: Tobho Mott says
So there was no mention even of “reforging”, much less melting down (which I think we can agree was cinematic license). Just “reworking” (probably hammering) and perhaps ominously, the use of spells. Apparently, unlike Harry Potter’s world, anybody and their dog can learn to cast spells.
I mention in passing that Mott emphasizes that nobody knows how to actually make Valyrian steel anymore, so the likelihood of his training Gendry is nil.
On the other hand, Samwell Tarly might run across the instructions at the Citadel library. And there is a maester’s link for mastery of “magic.”
Davos: Whoever rules Westeros at the end is going to need some advisors, and that’s where I feel Davos and Tyrion fit in, so I’m of the feeling that his chances of survival are better than him dying. The article does make some good arguments for possible death scenarios for him though, so we’ll see.
Jorah: Dany’s entourage is going to have to suffer some casualties, so I’m afraid I agree with most people in that Jorah is high on that list for a heartbreaking death. Probably Grey Worm too. I’m not sure about Missandei though.. I suppose she could survive and take on an advisory role as well. But Jorah going out in a blaze of glory for his queen seems fitting.
Bronn: I’ve said this before, but I’m very neutral on Bronn. I honestly don’t really care what happens to him, but D&D are obviously big fans, so I wouldn’t be too surprised if he survives and gets his reward. I do like the idea of him facing off against another beloved character though, giving us real pause in who we root for in the fight. That would be a bit of a missed opportunity if that doesn’t happen to be honest.
During my rewatch, I noticed a very short moment where these two do share a scene together. It’s in 3×01. Cersei is visiting Tyrion in the room where he is recovering after the Battle of Blackwater, and when she exits the room Bronn is on his way in to see Tyrion. It’s very brief, and they don’t interact, but they do indeed share a scene together.
Ten Bears,
“There were scenes in prior episodes in which Sansa described Northern Lords as “bloody weather vanes.”
Sansa didn’t realise it, but Littlefinger was blowing those wind vanes by using Royce and Glover to urge Sansa to overthrow Jon. If Bran and Arya hadn’t come home, no doubt he would have succeeded in time.
I recently read a compelling theory published last year after S7e4 aired, that Arya’s VS dagger actually belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen, and Robert pilfered it from Rhaegar’s corpse after bashing in his chest on the Trident. This theory makes sense, and might give a reason for Arya to give that dagger to Jon Snow aka Aegon Targaryen.
I’m not sure how the number and provenance of VS swords are treated in the books. I was hoping Visenya Targaryen’s VS sword “Dark Sister” would show up after Arya mentioned it in her show-only chat with Tywin.
It’s utterly plausible, and I’d wager that after the wars she will give it to him, as fitting reciprocation for Needle. Several YouTubers have theorised that Catspaw may BE Dark Sister or a refashioned fragment of DS. It seems DS and the Dagger are meant for Arya. Not only did she expound on DS and its history, but she is the Dark Sister of Aegon Targaryen. As Syrio said, she is a sword. Moreover, the Three-Eyed Raven gave it her after saying “It was meant to kill me”, it probably still is. That look he gave Arya as he handed it to her spoke volumes. If he has to die to end the Long Night and bring on Summer, surely he’d want his beloved childhood playmate to give him “the Gift”.
Clob,
“I don’t know that it makes any sense but that is what was written that Tobho did. He melted it down and even tried unsuccessfully to tint the steel but the color was absorbed by the molten metal.”
It makes perfect metaphorical sense. The grey resists turning red as the Starks resist being overcome by the Lannisters.
Davos is brave and doesn’t hesitate in taking action when necessary. Luckily, he hasn’t been forced to fight his way out of a bad situation just yet, but that may change when the army of the dead attacks Winterfell.
“Don’t mind me, I’ve only managed to live to a ripe old age.” Davos is one character whom I have never changed my love for. The man is consistent as all get out, and hasn’t been afraid to go up against the NW with one good hand and little prowess in fighting. I am not sure that I could trust anyone who doesn’t like Davos. 😜 If anyone could sit down and negotiate a deal with the Night King, it’d be him. 😆 Despite his hilarious succinctness when it comes to introducing Jon, he really does have a gift for diplomacy. I’d be shattered if he died. But there isn’t a single character that I really believe is safe.
His (Jorah) motives are different than Davos, since he’s following Daenerys because of the (unrequited) love he feels for her
I honestly don’t see that as his only reason. He DOES believe in her, has known her since her pre-dragon days, has seen all the crazy shit go down, and knows she loves him, but not in the way he wants. Jorah is a truly skilled fighter, and the fact that Iain Glen is one of the few actors who does his own stunts makes it all the more impressive. Also, his voice could slay all of his enemies, his eyes sing a thousand songs, a look from him w…..*AHEM*….um, I like Jorah. 😳
Also if he brought out Nemesis that’d be sweet.
I couldn’t help but to cheer when Jorah and Dany share a hug.
Darth Jorah and Dany’s hug was improved only by the hilarious look on Jon’s face. 😆
Bronn fights dirty but Jorah has years of experience and has fought against a wide variety of enemies, both alive and undead, so some cheap tactics aren’t going to faze him.
This pairing would be the best and worst thing ever. Bronn is a damn champ. Jorah is my favourite character, Iain Glen my favourite actor. It would be amazing and awful, like when Mad Max Bronn was firing at Drogon, and I was so conflicted I didn’t even know how to feel. Ever since he dropped the gold to save Jaime, I wonder if he truly doesn’t have some loyalty. I feel like that’s the wrong word. Sure, he said he wanted his damn castles etc, but a sellsword DROPPED HIS GOLD AND GALLOPED STRAIGHT AT MR.FLAMEY.
If any of the 3 do a ‘turn’, it’d be Bronn. Yet, he’s said outright that he’d do as much. So while it’d be hard to say I’d be surprised…I think I kinda might be.
Know what these 3 have in common? Zero qualms about dying. Maybe they’ll all live to spite it. 😉
Excellent analysis, Morgoth. These three priceless characters, like all sidekicks, are too often overlooked. They could not be more different, but then GRRM knows how to create iconic but readily differentiated characters. Your predictions for them make sense. Bronn has started boring me, so I wouldn’t have minded if last season he had been burnt to a crisp after his heroics. But Davos and Jorah are golden, and it would be painful to lose either. I fear Jorah particularly is not long for this world….or that one.
Pigeon,
Know what these 3 have in common? Zero qualms about dying. Maybe they’ll all live to spite it.
I hope you’re right!
Oh no. You know what’s going to happen now….a flock of googly-eyed wight chickens will imprint on Sandor as their dad, and being wights, Sandor won’t want to eat them, but something about their blind devotion will also not quite let him kill them either (they will harmlessly peck at him constantly, with him brushing them off in an irritated way as they perch on his shoulders and gift him a large chicken helm). He and his gaggle of wight chickens will embark on a hilarious adventure, which is how his arc will end.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
“That look he gave Arya as he handed it to her spoke volumes.”
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• Not only Bran’s look when he handed the dagger to Arya, but his very strange “body language” with his hand – as if he were recoiling from touching something red hot. I’ve watched that over and over and don’t know what to make of it. (Do you know what I’m talking about?)
• Also, about Sansa’s “weather vanes” description: Lord Glover has been a weenie all along, even without LF whispering in his ear. No sooner had Lord Glover admitted he was wrong for abandoning the Starks, begged foregiveness, and pledged to stand behind Jon Snow in S6e10 … but he was right back at it at the beginning of S7, questioning Jon’s decision about preparing the population to defend the North. I was shouting at my TV screen: “Shut the f*ck up and sit down, you treasonweasel.”
[“treasonweasel” coined by L. Mensch circa 2017]
Pigeon,
🐶🐥🐥🐥🐥🐥🐥🐣
Jorah will help in the Great War, will be pardoned by Lyana Mormont for selling slaves and once all the fighting is done and the White Walkers driven (not destroyed) back North there will be a new Order of the Night’s Watch and Jorah, seeking his father’s forgiveness, will be the 1000th Lord Commander of the NW.
Bronn will definitely go North with his new buddy Jamie and his old one Tyrion and not stay in King’s Landing with Cercei. He even said he wouldn’t stay there. He will probably catch up with Jamie and say something like ‘if you lot plan on dying who the hell is going to pay me my due? Plus I said I would not fight against the dragons so I will join them’.
Davos will continue being Jon’s Hand after Jon sit’s on the Iron Throne and Tyrion will get his wish and get Casterly Rock.
Jamie will interract with Bran and will be forgiven and possibly even save Bran’s life (ironic, I know) fight the dead and when that battle is done go to King’s Landing, kill Cercei (valanqar) and die in the arms of the woman he loves.
When the battle is joined, I imagine Ser Davos as the protector/rescuer of Lady Lyanna Mormont, and some others, perhaps taking them to a safe place. In my mind, whether he survives or not, I see him with young Lyanna.
As for Bronn, we know he ignited the Blackwater Bay with wildfire using his large bow and flaming arrow. Then, last season we watched him wield that huge ballista-like machine Qyburn designed, shooting giant arrows at Drogon, so I have to wonder if maybe they will fashion a huge arrow out of dragon stone and maybe he will fire it at Vyserion?
I was also paying attention to Bronn when they were preparing for the summit meeting at the dragon pit. He was watching the Unsullied and the Dothraki warriors assemble outside the walls and he directed his soldiers to “get more pitch.”
I just associate Bronn with arrows, wildfire and pitch. if he does not survive I don’t think Bronn will develop blue eyes. I think he will go out in a “blaze of glory.”
I see Ser Jorah doing something daring, self sacrificing, and heroic for Dany and Jon. Have no idea what it is, but that’s my sense of him.
Wow, Bronn fighting Arya would be a really tough one for me to watch. That reminds me of Brienne’s talk with Jaime in the tent that if they go to battle they will need to face each other in the field, since Brienne’s oath would require her to defend house Tully.
I would say the same thing to Bronn that Jaime said to Brienne. “I hope it doesn’t come to that” and at some point it works out that Bronn and Arya will be fighting on the same side and not against each other. But if it does come to that, Arya would be the one who could defeat him.
Yeah, that’s an interesting prospect. I almost feel as if there isn’t a matchup like this that pits two beloved characters against one another in a 1v1 it would be a missed opportunity.
Arya vs. Bronn is certainly possible (she did see him at The Twins with Jamie, which could ignite her wrath at him), but I would bet on Bronn vs. someone else like Jorah, Brienne, Sandor, or Grey Worm as more likely. It all depends on what side Bronn ends up on really.
I’m a big fan of the theory that the dagger was made from Dark Sister! And it’s certainly possible that it belonged to Rhaegar as well, which would make it even more interesting and special that Arya now has it. It was forged from the blade of one of her heroines, and it once belonged to Jon’s father.
Re: Bronn going north. I don’t see this guy getting killed on anyone’s account, and he’s still owed that castle. I hear the Dreadfort is standing empty. I imagine one of the first things he’d do is get rid of all those Stark-skin robes…
Speaking of which, much more likely in my opinion, that ancient Stark bones coming to life and marching out of the Winterfell tombs is that the ancient Stark skins in the Dreadfort re-animating. Visualize them slipping off their hangers and sliding over the stone floors, down the stairs, kind of like manta rays only flatter.
zandru,
That is even more vague and hocus pocus of George than I remember. Diffindo! *bam* – two perfect swords from one 😛
—————
I can’t see Arya and Bronn fighting each other. If she fights anyone 1-on-1 that is a series long character I think it has to be a full-on “bad guy” like the Mountain. While some think that’s a ridiculous idea it at least makes sense with her story. (Maybe she’ll get a chance against a new one to show her stuff… I don’t recall him ever being spotted but it was reported here that Marc Rissman was assumed to have been cast as Harry Strickland.)
Bronn’s entire story has been within the arcs of and ‘friends’ with Tyrion, Pod and Jaime. He’s rarely if ever been in a scene without one of them or doing something as a result of their interactions. At the same time he’s made it known that he doesn’t think much of Cersei… or even have a care for anyone else. In the books:
They’ve kept him around and popped him in here and there for a reason. Perhaps it was mainly because they wanted/needed another character around for Jaime’s arc. I do think they like the character though and have been using him for comedic relief. They would lose much of that I think if they leave him in KL on the wrong side (for scenes by himself with “redshirts” Tim and Steve). In keeping with the character adaptation they’ve created I think they have to reunite him with Tyrion and Jaime, as I wrote earlier in the thread.
Enharmony1625,
The dagger almost certainly was originally Targaryen, since it was part of the royal collection that Robert would have inherited after taking the throne. That doesn’t require Robert to have actually taken it off Rhaegar’s corpse, though.
However, the theory that the dagger is made from Dark Sister is groundless, and more reflects a mutation of the longstanding fan theory that Arya would wield Dark Sister. That theory, in the books, makes a certain amount of symbolic sense, and at least as yet there’s room in the plot for it to happen (though I personally think that if Bloodraven does still have it that would be kind of dumb). But once it became clear that Dark Sister as a sword wasn’t going to appear on the show, then people started trying to reconfigure the theory around the dagger that Arya actually did get.
BeardedOnion,
It was the siege of Storm’s End. The were about to resort to eating their dead after a year surviving on horses, cats and dogs. Davos smuggled in onions and salt fish.
Enharmony1625,
A drawing of the dagger shows up in a book Sam reads at the Citadel, while he was researching how to kill White Walkers. You can see a pic here: https://amp.thisisinsider.com/images/596c2c442e50633e008b47b0-960-720.jpg
Stark Raven’ Rad,
Ten Bears,
FYI: At 8:21-8:23 of this clip from S7e4, Bran hands the dagger to Arya. His expression and body language (i.e., his hand “recoiling” as Arya takes it from him) are weird. I don’t know what to make of them.
• Is he apprehensive about giving her this weapon?
• Does he have a premonition about what she’s going to do with it?
• Did someone or something tell him she was destined to have this dagger?
• Since this reunion in S7e4 is the first time Bran has seen Arya since S1e1, has he seen in “visions” how she’s developed into a skilled assassin over the years, and that while the dagger “would be wasted on a cripple”, it would be put to its best use by Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess™️? (™️ talvikorppi 2018)
• Does Bran know more about the origin and provenance of the dagger than he let on in his conversation with LF?
I still don’t know how to interpret that one-two second shot closeup on Bran’s hand at ~ 8:21. However, I’m pretty sure the dagger wasn’t depicted in the Citadel book Sam and Gilly were looking at in S7e1?, then prominently displayed in S7e4, if it was just going to be a McGuffin, i.e., incidental rather than essential.
With all the hype about Valyrian steel and its rarity on the show, it wouldn’t make much sense to reintroduce that VS dagger just for Arya to use to execute LF. If that were the case, she didn’t need a VS weapon to kill LF. She would’ve used a chicken bone if she had to. 👸🏻
Ten Bears,
Wow I watched that little snippet again and it really does appear that he is apprehensive of giving her the dagger. He closes his hand a bit as she pulls it from his grasp, then the look on his face is almost like “what have I done? The die is cast…” Maybe he did have a vision of things to come.
I did notice that the first time I watched the episode and thought it was a little strange. My thinking then and since is that, if it meant anything at all, he had some feeling from one of those fuzzy greenseer dreams that she is suppose to have the dagger but he hadn’t figured out why yet. Of course it could have been him just showing a little apprehension about giving an assassin yet another weapon.
I don’t know. I watched the clip again and I’m not sure I see much apprehension. There is definitely a sense of significance to the fact that he’s giving her the dagger, and Bran seems to know this is a big deal, but I’m not sure I see Bran second guessing himself or having a “what have I done?” moment. I doubt he’d give the dagger to Arya unless it was for a good reason. I don’t think Bran just randomly offered her the dagger and then, only afterwards, regretted it. Personally, I think Bran knew exactly what he was doing. The only apprehension is that maybe he knows Arya will have to kill someone close to the Starks with it or maybe even Jon himself.
I dunno. Could be anything. Just my opinion.
Viz,
I know, right? It is weird, especially because the camera lingered for a closeup on his hand. It reminded me of a scene from Pride & Prejudice (2005) in which something unspoken was conveyed by a brief hand gesture.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOerFYfdMTY
In the Bran & Arya dagger scene, I got a similar feeling. Something was going on – even if one or both characters weren’t consciously aware what it was.
… maybe it was just Isaac’s way of showing Bran being weird cuz Bran is weird now 😀
Clob,
That’s a very strong possibility 🙂
When I think about it, if Bran realized that he made a mistake by giving her the dagger couldn’t he simply ask for it back? It’s not like Arya was attached to it, asked for it, or was given to her as a name day present. Bran just gave it to her and Arya didn’t really act like she specifically wanted it. I don’t think Bran is regretting anything in that scene.
Like I said previously, I think Bran is giving Arya the dagger with the unspoken understanding that it’s for something important. It might be for something that Arya doesn’t want to do, but has to do. Maybe that’s the apprehension some are seeing here, but I disagree with the opinion that Bran regretted giving Arya the dagger.
I’m sure, Bran gives the dagger to Arya, because she’s the one to use it perfectly, not only technically, but also in the right sense.
I saw, what Ten Bears and others saw, and I thought “uuuuh… she’s to kill him, he just recognized it!”: “[the dagger] would be wasted on a cripple” – but it wouldn’t be wasted on a Three-Eyed-Raven – and a brother.
Bran, I think, doesn’t care much about, whether he lives or dies, but still he cares about, what it would mean to his sister to be to kill him. With the dagger he gave his life in Aryas hands and with this gesture he finally closed the chapter “I am Bran”.
Sean C.,
Very true. There is no indication that the Catspaw dagger was forged from, or is in any way related to Dark Sister in the books. I think it’s possible that the show ends up consolidating the two however, especially if the book storyline involving Dark Sister will end up being more involved. The foreshadowing of the dagger in the old book Sam reads in 7×01 without a doubt indicates there is something special about it, so the show has definitely set this up as a possibility.
Ten Bears,
I always took that gesture by Bran to mean that he has some vague premonition that she will have to make a difficult choice with the dagger. Or perhaps that there is a big responsibility in wielding it in the war to come. Another possibility is that he knows all the lives she’s taken, and how many more she will with the dagger and what affect that might have on her.
“Ha! I would pay good money to see that.” -Sandor
You and me both, Sandor. You and me both! 🙂
Ten Bears,
• Does Bran know more about the origin and provenance of the dagger than he let on in his conversation with LF? … I still don’t know how to interpret that one-two second shot closeup on Bran’s hand at ~ 8:21. However, I’m pretty sure the dagger wasn’t depicted in the Citadel book Sam and Gilly were looking at in S7e1?, then prominently displayed in S7e4, if it was just going to be a McGuffin.
John Bradley said he was told to linger on the Dagger page for the camera, which confirms it is important. Bran must have known its (long- and short-term) history . Remember how he turned the Dagger over several times, running his finger along the edge when he asked LF if he knew who it belonged to? LF said no, which was a lie. Bran also knows he’s going to die because in S4 Jojen told him “This isn’t the end. Not for you. Not yet.” He may not yet know how, but that the Dagger meant to kill him has come back. GRRM’s Rule of Threes implies it will come back again.. Also, he probably second-guesses everything he does because he wants to avoid another tragic Hodor-type time slip. So Bran has a lot to worry about. AND the hand-gesture could be innocuous. Bran gives Arya a little smile when he sees her and pats her back (visible if you slow down the reunion video). He’s glad or relieved she’s come home. And the hand close-up when he passes the Dagger to Arya is paralleled by a hand close-up when she passes the Dagger to Sansa. Maybe that shows the Pack is united. So many mysteries!
He wasn’t as glad or relieved, when Sansa gave him a big hug, when Bran returned to Winterfell. That was noticeable.
To get a better idea of whether this is significant or not, it would be smart to look at other weapon hand-overs: Jon Snow giving Needle to Arya, Tywin giving a yet-unnamed part of Ice to Jaime, Catelyn handing the “Catspaw” dagger to Littlefinger, Jeor giving Longclaw to Jon.
A lot of your hesitation, deliberation, and looks of caution might be simply because these are dangerous edged weapons, and that’s how a prudent person handles them.
There is something I’ve been pondering regarding these men and others… It’s been known, or at least said, that George has told D&D how he plans to finish the story. I imagine his ending is in a rather fluid state though as he works towards it. Ignoring that, I would guess that his stated plans were focused on the main finish points and the main, primary characters; Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion, Arya, Bran… Cersei and Sansa. Perhaps he has a specific ending for Jaime as well. However, with so much story left to write I don’t know that he would have any specific, set actions and finishes yet for secondary and tertiary characters such as Bronn, Jorah and Davos. D&D have already taken some pretty big liberties with them. For instance, I don’t think Jorah is going to get greyscale in the books but it became a major part of his show story. These characters may be among those that D&D are ‘finishing’ mainly on their own. If this is the case, and with them in that capacity, is it easier to guess their fates? Is it more or less likely that they’re happier endings because they’re (probably) more beloved on the show than their book counterparts? Hell, I suppose there’s even a possibility that one or two or even all three of them don’t make it through TWoW.
there’s also a nice hand close-up of Samwell, when he’s reading the book part illustrated with a picture of this very dagger. but this does not necessarily show anything than D&D’s fun in making me notice it and report it to others.
anyway, i could not get my eyes from that painted dagger when i rewatched the scene. i tried to have at least a minimum of an idea what the ornamentation of the dagger might symbolize. but i failed completely.
I believe it’s a dragonbone hilt. The significance is that the Valyrians felt a kinship with the material and it’s also strong as steel but much lighter. I don’t think there’s much more to it than that, but of course I could be wrong.
Clob,
Well, Jorah’s greyscale story came down to: Jorah got sick. Jorah got better. The End. I had always assumed there’d be a greyscale epidemic – on top of all the other sh*t humankind had to deal with. Maybe that’s what GRRM planned?
As for secondary and tertiary characters: was pleasantly surprised that not only did Beric make it through S6 alive, but he had such a prominent role in S7. I’m not a book reader (yet); it’s my understanding that show! Beric’s story is a significant departure from – and expansion of – books! Jorah’s story. I thought that was kind of noteworthy, since the showrunners have shown no hesitation in prematurely killing off characters still alive and busy in the books.
I’m rather perplexed by that too. There’s apparently a known way to cure greyscale, but maesters are too scared to do it? Not only that, but they discourage anyone else to perform the procedure, which, as it turns out, is simply ripping off the bad skin. If they’re scared to do it, well fine, but why stop others from doing it that are qualified? More practice would surely lead to improving the procedure to make it safer to perform. Those maesters deserve to be sent to Valyria to live out the rest of their days with the stone men that they refused to help. Stannis was lucky to get a maester that was willing to help Shireen at all.
The whole greyscale storyline was just a cheap way to separate Jorah and Dany for a while. I kind of wish they used a different reason to separate them since the cure for greyscale turned out to be so simple in the end. Didn’t hate the storyline, but didn’t care for it much. It felt rushed, like much of season 7 did to me. Yes, I know not everyone feels the same way and that’s cool.
Ten Bears,
Edit to 12:34 pm comment, second paragraph, 8th line: I meant to refer to Beric’s expanded story line on the show (not Jorah’s).
Mr Derp,
“The whole greyscale storyline was just a cheap way to separate Jorah and Dany for a while. I kind of wish they used a different reason to separate them since the cure for greyscale turned out to be so simple in the end.”
___________
My pre-book reader’s guess? The showrunners adapted the greyscale story line from the books, and set it up via Jorah rather than a book! character they excised from the show.
Then, I imagine the showrunners called up GRRM, and their conversation went something like this:
D&D: “Okay, now what?”
GRRM: “Dunno. Have to get back to you. Jets game is on. Gotta go…” [Click]
Greyscale was a hanging gun that fired a dud.
Ten Bears,
5 minutes later…
GRRM: Calls D&D back…”Ok, so the Jets are getting their asses handed to them as per usual, but I’m just too pissed off about it to come up with any good ideas right now. I’ll release my next book as well as get back to you about the greyscale storyline once the Jets win another Super Bowl.”
Speaking of sidekicks… Not that Bronn would be a sidekick to Cersei, but if he does leave KL there aren’t going to be many to follow there. I wonder if that Vulcan lady could be in a few more scenes..? She’s been part of the cast since S2, albeit rarely actually on the show.
You mean her handmaiden that ratted out Tyrion’s relationship with Shae? She is the last one of Cersei’s team left that hasn’t had much screen time. Don’t forget Qyburn! He’s pretty much Cersei’s de facto sidekick now.
Viz,
Yeah, Bernadette. Sansa’s then Cersei’s handmaiden… or more accurately, Cersei’s “spymaiden.”
https://imgix.bustle.com/elite-daily/2017/08/02092659/bernadette-game-of-thrones.jpg?w=998&h=598&fit=crop&crop=faces&auto=format&q=70
Spot-on! Of course most of us would be like that if we’d just come home after a long, traumatic journey through winter terrain, LOL. Though it could be significant.
Great point. As much as the handovers, it was interesting how Bran studied the weapon, turned it over, tried the edge while Littlefinger was nattering on. Then he did it again before giving it to Arya. It’s almost like he was trying to find the Dagger’s secret or fate. Which implies the Dagger has one.
Re: Bran’s hand-off of the dagger to Arya —
I noticed the odd body language, too, and tentatively ascribed it to Bran’s distaste of it, that it had been given to him by LF
cos alpha,
I wouldn’t read too much into that.
His reunion scene with Sansa was only the second scene he would feature in in Season 7 and the first with a character that he was expected to have an emotional reaction to, so it was the clearest opportunity to convey his transformation into Robo-Bran.
It’s no wonder that his portrayal appeared to soften at later moments in the season, especially when he had to make some sort of contribution to the plot.
But, more importantly, the two reunion scenes were directed by different directors. It’s understandable that there would be slight differences in the direction and the character’s portrayal without them necessarily being significant to the characters’ relationships or the plot.
I’m not sure what the point of Bran supposedly having a warmer reaction to seeing Arya again could possibly have on the plot going forward. It didn’t have any impact on the remainder of Season 7, so I highly doubt it would become significant in Season 8.
I’d just chalk it up to the idiosyncrasies of the production process, rather than some barely noticeable clue to some plot point yet to come.
The significance of the dagger handover was more blatant though. The remark in the previous episode about who it belonged to, the lingering shot of it being passed to Arya and another shot lingering on Bran’s reaction were obviously meant to encourage the viewer to question its significance.
There’s apparently a known way to cure greyscale, but maesters are too scared to do it?
The reason the masters don’t attempt to cure greyscale (at least not per the words written by Archmaester Pylos) was given in dialog in the show. Courtesy of our friends at Game of Thrones Wiki:
Ebrose: “I am familiar with Archmaester Pylos’ study of rare diseases!”
Samwell: “Oh, you are?”
Ebrose: “Yes. And shall I tell you how he died? From greyscale! Procedure is far too dangerous, which is why it’s now forbidden…”
If Pylos literally could not heal himself, there is no reason for the maesters to believe his methods could heal anyone else, either. It could be that Sam and Jorah just plain got lucky, and Jorah’s greyscale happened to be exactly in a state where Pylos’ cure (really more of a treatment) would actually work. For all we know, it could have made matters worse if applied in the earlier stages of Jorah’s infection, or killed him in the latter stages (if any).
The whole greyscale storyline was just a cheap way to separate Jorah and Dany for a while.
I thought it was a great way to separate them. Instead of just giving him a royal edict to get lost on pain of death — which hadn’t worked the first time — she gave him a specific mission to accomplish and then return to her. It shows she was learning from her previous mistake, and also that she’d learned to make unpalatable orders easier to follow if they align the interests of ruler and ruled.
(Oh, and she clearly did not believe he would survive his mission. Perhaps there is some foreshadowing in that…)
Greyscale was a hanging gun that fired a dud.
I respectfully disagree. Greyscale is to the human body what the Army of the Dead is to Westeros: safe if contained, terrifying if spreading. (Shireen’s greyscale thus represents the White Walkers contained, and Jorah’s greyscale represents them spreading.) Who was the first person in living memory to kill a White Walker, to thus limit the spread of that contagion?
I believe D&D are using this analogy to prepare their audience for the surprisingly quick and easy disposal of the “unstoppable” existential threat the White Walkers have been since the first scenes of the pilot. My own speculation, which I’ll repeat here, is that Sam the Slayer removes the obsidian from the body of the Night’s King, unmaking him back into one of the First Men. With that, all of the Walkers and their Army de-animate. (The White Walkers who tried to protect their King at close quarters get assassinated with a storied Valerian Steel dagger, provided by the Three-Eyed Raven himself. Walkers made the mistake of ignoring Sam already, and this time, they make the mistake of overlooking the easiest person to overlook: No One.)
There were several JonCon bits added to Jorah’s character and Tyrion’s storyline that played rather nicely in being able to eliminate a boring-as-f*ck book plot.
What gets me is that Stannis sent all over the planetos to cure Shireen, and there was never an inkling of what the cure could entail. Sam opens a book, and is like “Ooh, lowscale flaying! Right, doff your duds, Mormont.”
On second thought, I’d probably kill to ask Jorah to doff his duds. Dang.
Shireen wasn’t cured in the way Jorah was, I think. The maester succeeded in stopping the progression of this desease, so that grayscale couldn’t spread anymore in Shireen, but the attackted area lasted.
I know, that’s what I mean. The lengths and expense Stannis went to in order to find a way to stop it (the method of which we didn’t hear) is pretty crazy compared to the almost simple process Sam happened on. I wouldn’t say they made it too easy, but they sorta made it…easy. After all this time and all the people affected, even Gilly’s sisters.
Mr Derp,
As I look back on it now, I believe the “Jorah gets greyscale” plot twist was more to show how the Maesters of the citadel impose limits on themselves, that can hinder progress. The Citadel wasn’t as glorious as Sam imagined.
The maesters forbid curing greyscale because it’s too dangerous. The maesters seem to not take the AotD seriously, etc., and seem not to be concerned about nor try to understand the “crippled boy in a wheelchair having visions.”
Sam went to the Citadel with stars in his eyes. he walked in and saw all those books and if he could have inhaled all that knowledge in one deep breath he would have.
He was excited. And remarkably, instead of becoming cautious and fearful and stagnant, he became more adventuresome and daring as a result of what he was learning.
That was quite a contrast to the stiff cautious teachers he was encountering. So clearly, Samwell will be one of the more important figures in Season 8. I think D&D used Jorah to demonstrate that.
We’d already seen Shereen, and heard about Gilly’s sister. We’ve seen the Stone Men, so for Jorah to have such an advanced case of it was a death sentence. Yet, there was Sam (and Jorah ) willing to roll the dice, take the risk, because there was nothing to lose at that point.
I think of the entire storyline as a parable for things to come. The fact Jorah gets cured and returns to serve, might mean he survives all of this. I’m beginning to believe Jorah is not as expendable as I once thought.
I ‘m also curious about the dynamic between Jorah and Tyrion. They remain uneasy allies. Tyrion, IMO still sees him as a threat, and I would not be at all surprised to see Tyrion attempt to try to manipulate Jorah, & try to turn him against Jon. Jorah has already decided to trust Jon. It won’t work. So that’s something I’m going to keep an eye on with Ser Jorah.
Roz’s Ghost,
• I’ll say this: The Jorah greyscale plot line gave us what I think was Samwell’s signature moment on the show, in his scene with Jorah in S7e2 (Sam’s “You are not dying today, Ser Jorah” speech)
(S7e2, Sam & Jorah)
Sam: “You’re Jorah Mormont, the only son of Jeor Mormont. My name is Samwell Tarly, Sworn Brother of the Night’s Watch, training to serve as maester at Castle Black. I knew your father. I was with him when he died. You are not dying today, Ser Jorah.”
• After Sam’s declaration to Jorah in that scene, and their parting words in S7e3 (below), I kind of wish Jorah had namedropped Sam when Jorah met Jon in S7e5. But I am NOT complaining. I am looking forward to a Sam-Jorah reunion in S8.
(S7e3, Sam & Jorah, after he’s healed)
Sam: “….Where will you go?”
Jorah: “I surrendered to this sickness the moment I first saw it. I knew it would kill me or I’d kill myself before it could. Daenerys Stormborn convinced me otherwise. The only place for me is back with her. I owe her my life. Her and you.”
Sam: “Your father saved me more than once. It’s the least I could do.”
Jorah: “Perhaps our paths will cross again.”
Sam: “I hope they do.”
(S7e5, Jorah, Jon & Dany)
Dany: “Jon Snow, this is Ser Jorah Mormont, an old friend.”
Jon: “I served with your father. He was a great man.”
Dany: “You look strong. You found a cure?”
Jorah: “I wouldn’t be here if I hadn’t. I return to your service, my queen, if you’ll have me.”
Dany: “It would be my honor.”
Namedropping isn’t really a speciality by D&D ;o)
Roz’s Ghost,
“‘I’m also curious about the dynamic between Jorah and Tyrion. They remain uneasy allies. Tyrion, IMO still sees him as a threat, and I would not be at all surprised to see Tyrion attempt to try to manipulate Jorah, & try to turn him against Jon. Jorah has already decided to trust Jon. It won’t work. So that’s something I’m going to keep an eye on with Ser Jorah.”
———–
Interesting. I thought it might be the other way around: That Tyrion will try to turn Jorah in favor of Jon.
Tyrion has already told Cersei that the difference between Cersei and Dany is that Dany has advisors who rein in her worst impulses. Yet, Tyrion has commiserated with Varys that he’s been unable to rein in Dany’s impulsive behavior, e.g., unnecessarily flame broiling both Tarlys.
I’m already expecting Mr. Targaryen Restoration/What’s Best for the Realm Varys to hop on board the Aegon Targaryen train (and probably get burned alive for it by the Mother of Dragons.) Might Tyrion have second thoughts? He really likes and trusts Jon Snow. And Jon does not have those “Fire and Blood” impulses that Dany not infrequently has. He’s more of a conciliator – sometimes to a fault. He doesn’t have ambition or sense of entitlement to be a monarch.
I’m just tinfoiling here. Though I do think the show put in the Father-and-Son Tarly BBQ for a reason…
It’s an interesting aspect that we’ll have to wait until season 8 to see how it ultimately plays out.
Personally, I thought the scene in season 7 with Tyrion giving Jorah the coin was a sign that they are truly friends now, or at the very least, on good terms. I don’t anticipate that Tyrion will see Jorah as a threat at all, but of course, I could certainly be proven wrong once season 8 airs.
leering at who? at wha? whoo? wut?
what the big balls are you talking about?
Are you fan of the Hugh Mungus Lady?
About Davos: “Luckily, he hasn’t been forced to fight his way out of a bad situation just yet, but that may change when the army of the dead attacks Winterfell.”
About Jorah: “After fighting the army of the dead, he knows what to expect from the wights and won’t be taken by surprise when the White Walkers arrive to attack Winterfell.”
—————–
Q: Do we know for a fact that the WW/AotD are going to “attack Winterfell”, or is this part of the speculation? (Because I think disgruntled Northerners may attack WF to raid the pantry – though Ol’ Blue Eyes may show up to join the party.)
Ten Bears,
It’s funny that you called Jon a conciliator. Jaehaerys I was known as the Conciliator, and was pretty much known as the best king Westeros ever had. Jon emulates what we know of Jaehaerys almost perfectly. Its the reason that so many people – including myself – thought that Jon’s real name would turn out to be Jaehaerys, and not Aegon. Plus the whole “J” thing. I believe it was a missed opportunity, but I digress.
Ten Bears,
Yeah, I think Varys will definitely board the Jon Targaryen train.
Why? I’m guessing that Melisandre returns from Volantis with an army of zealots from Essos, who believe that Dany is the saviour (as per the Volantene priestess and Kinvara); and Dany may be too readily seduced by the idea of being The Princess That Was Promised for Varys’ liking.
We all know Varys’ opinion of religious fanatics and their potential impact on the Realm: “for a man in service to such powers to sit on the Iron Throne, I can think of nothing worse”.
Unlike Dany, half of whose army already follow her because of her supernatural powers and the other half of whom are devoted to her almost religiously, Jon is unlikely to buy into the whole god complex that followers of the Lord of Light have to offer. So Varys may see him as a better option for the future of Westeros once his parentage is revealed.
Toward the end of Season 7 both Jorah and Tyrion seemed to be uncomfortable with the level of influence Jon had attained over Dany.
Jorah seemed put out by Dany accepting Jon’s travel advice over his, even at risk to her own safety.
While Tyrion I think was initially happy to see Jon gaining influence over Dany. As per his “you have to find a way to make her listen” conversation with Varys and his own faltering influence over her, I think he was initially glad that someone level-headed retained sway with her. He may even have been encouraging the situation at one point by playing up Jon’s supposed feelings for her.
But by the end of the season, when Jon and Dany actually engage in a physical relationship, he appears disconcerted. As we all know from Maester Aemon, “Love is the death of duty”. And Tyrion placed his faith in Dany because he thought she was committed to building a better world.
At this point, she’s already lost one of her dragons by recklessly flying off to rescue Jon, against Tyrion’s advice: “You can’t win the throne if you’re dead. You can’t break the wheel if you’re dead”.
It’s so hard to predict how either of them might behave in Season 8 though. Characterisations don’t necessarily remain consistent from one season to the next. When I saw the death glare Jaime gave Cersei at the end of Season 6, I was sure that he’d finally abandon her. But nope, Season 7 starts and he’s fully committed to her, even after her actions caused the death of their last child.
So, despite their looks of concern in S7E7, it’s possible Jorah and Tyrion will remain faithful to Dany. I think Jorah probably will. After being devoted to her all these years, a last minute crisis of faith would feel unearned.
Tyrion, however, I could see losing faith in Dany if her commitment to being a better ruler than those that went before continues to waver. He might not necessarily abandon her specifically in favour of Jon, but I could certainly see Jon being part of whatever alternative he comes up with.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I think Tyrion will be at the center of a lot of conflict in season 8.
Last season, IMO, he was very overbearing towards Dany, acting as if the knowledge and experience he has, as a Lannister, part of one of the great houses of Westeros is superior to her experiences with the Dothraki and the Unsullied, and as “breaker of chains.”
While he’s familiar with the power games they play in Kings Landing, and he knows who the various families are allied to, and their histories, I think he oversells his abilities to strategize and play political games.
Outsmarting Maester Pycelle and Janos Slynt was no great accomplishment. He knew how to navigate the world of the Lannisters versus everyone else, but his judgement in this new, larger endeavor is very flawed. He did an outstanding job at the Battle of Blackwater Bay against Stannis, but he’s dealing with a completely different situation now, and his name has no weight here.
IMO, Tyrion wants to reshape Dany into what he thinks she ought to be; as if her experience and the knowledge she gained before she met him, has no validity in Westeros, and the people she will deal with in Westeros are somehow superior to the ones she dealt with before she crossed the sea.
I get the feeling that he resents Jorah and anyone else who has influence and history with her, almost as if he’d prefer to isolate her or, at the very least manage her. As she becomes more sure of herself, as here circle of advisers becomes wider, I’m going to predict the relationship between Dany and Tyrion will become competitive, as it will between him and Jon, and him and Jorah.
I love these articles!! For what it’s worth in my opinion Davos is one of the safer bets to survive the series (then again I would have said the same about Hodor), I just feel he’s a survivor and will very likely end up as hand of the King at the end or worst case returning home to his wife and family. If there is going to be hope for a positive future at the end of all of this then you need truly good people like Davos, Jon, Sam and to a slightly lesser extent Tyrion to be around.
I’m intrigued by your predictions for Jorah to be honest especially him surviving in the North and having an end game duel with Bronn or Jamie. If I had to do a Deadpool for S8 character Jorah is high on that list behind Cersei, the Mountain and the Night King. Ian Glenn has done an amazing job but I do feel it’s a character that has done well to make it this far and probably should have died off sometime ago. My guess is he will fall in battle before the end, I had assumed it would be in the North but it could stretch until the final few episodes. I don’t see him surviving the series unless it’s to become Lord commander of the Nights watch and him receiving a pardon from Jon just feels very cheesy to me.
The one piece you don’t really touch on is how will his relationship with Sam play out, I suspect there is a reason for this and it’s a set-up for S8 with Dany burning the Tarlys and Jorah being saved by Sam this will likely mean something else why do it?
Bronn again is one of my favourite secondary characters and Jerome has done a fantastic job. Hard to predict where he will go from here – I do feel he should have died at the loot train battle – my guess is more than likely to die before the end. I am not convinced I see him killing Pod though, yes it would be shocking but he wouldn’t kill him without serious reason. I know Bronn isn’t a good guy but he’s also not an evil guy he’s just motivated by money.
Moving forward I assumed he will be with Podd in S8 and most likely head north separately but staying behind to man the defences of Kings Landing is not out of the question. Going and/or working with the Golden Company is also a very good proposal.
Ps. I didn’t receive the usual email to say this article has been posted, not sure if this impacted others too.
Yes I agree, Jon seems on course to rule Westeros which means Sansa will likely become Wardness of the North. I don’t like the idea (or the character) but I believe that’s the most likely outcome.
You honestly see Dany as Queen at the end? Not sure I see Davos facing Euron either, feels much more like either Theon or a big battle coming there to kill him off. Arya killing Bronn also has no meaning at all, they’ve never interacted or have reason to clash. All about opinions of course:)
Roz’s Ghost,
Like it or not, Tyrion does have a better understanding of the Westerosi than Dany.
Unlike in Essos, Dany and her family and her dragons have a long and complicated history in Westeros, most recently involving the murderous tyranny of her lunatic father, that led to the deaths of thousands.
She can’t approach Westeros the same way she did Slaver’s Bay. There are no slaves to liberate. No masters to crucify. Half the kingdoms had already declared their independence and were ready to fight for it on their own terms.
Even an illegitimate queen like Cersei could evoke loyalty against a dragon-wielding Targaryen conqueror with a foreign army at their back. People aren’t awed by her dragons the same way they were in Essos – the Westerosi lived with them for hundreds of years, to the point where they became little more than “curiosities” (to quote Tywin). And she can’t evoke her family name, because that name in Westeros is mud.
There are lots of people who think that she should have simply conquered Westeros by any means necessary, then set about ruling fairly afterwards, and that Tyrion holding her back was the problem.
Except that’s clearly contrary to her own desire to be better than those that went before and it’s clearly not the story that the producers / GRRM want to tell. As evidenced by Tyrion (“You’re not here to be queen of the ashes”), Jon (“If you use them… you’re not different”) and Varys (“You wish to know where my true loyalties lie… with the people… the people whose hearts you aim to win”).
If Tyrion ends up turning against Daenerys next season, then it’d probably be because he no longer believes she is willing and/or able to build the better world that she convinced him she would, not because he’s jealous of others’ influence over her. Although, if she happens to start listening to those who believe that she will “purify non-believers by the thousands”, I’d say Tyrion would probably have good reason to resent his waning influence.
Anyway, this is all just speculation as things stand. But I find it hard to believe that Tyrion is going to turn into some sort of semi-antagonist in competition with Dany, Jon and Jorah, without just cause or foundation, all because Dany is no longer listening to him.
Like with Jon, you can just as easily make as strong of an argument that Dany is on course to ruling Westeros.
Great article about great characters! Whatever shall happen to them….
I firmly believe Davos will be one of the survivors. From a storytelling perspective, his death would accomplish nothing. Putting aside his sort of father/son relationship with a certain blacksmith, his death would be along the lines of “Bummer about Davos” for the main characters.
I’ve loved Jorah since Iain Glen’s first scene on screen and I love him still, but I want him to die. His is a redemption story and Dany has forgiven him and his one-time King (Jon) even tried to return his family sword. If Cousin Lyanna makes nice, Jorah days will be few. Jorah is a tragic character and the odds are he will go out defending his Kaleesi or someone she cares about.
Bronn, oh Bronn…how we love thee. He stole my heart when he tossed Ser Whoever down the Moon Door and rightly pointed out that fighting with honor was a disadvantage. Will he die saving Jaime, Tyrion, or Pod? Will he join with the Golden Company and do something to ruin Cersei’s chances of winning? If he dies, I hope it will be doing something honorable. If he lives, I hope he gets The Twins. It’s not like the Frey’s are using it….
My understanding is GRRM shared the ending of the series and also the main arcs of all the characters but not the final details. He also shared stuff from Winds which was written and unpublished at the time. I’m sure we are getting the ending for all main characters (by that I suspect POV from the books) so that would include Davos. D&D did change Barristan’s ending though or at least brought it forward so there may be some incorrect assumptions made on my part.
Regarding more minor characters like Bronn I’d hazard an educated guess D&D are making this up based on very loose direction from GRRM at best. Although I’ve not seen it 100% confirmed apparently GRRM told D&D that the Hound will return but at the time of the discussion hadn’t decided on what will happen with him as an example.
Berics story appears to be loosely based on Lady Stoneheart. Jorah’s S7 plotline appears to loosely based on a minor character from the last book. Other than Barristan Selmy (who is grave danger when we last visit him in ADWD) I’m not sure which other characters that the show has killed off which the books haven’t? Note. I do not count those killed S6 afterwards as those books are yet unpublished.
You mean Sandor.
Barristan latest in the books is essentially Tyrion’s show arc in Meereen after Daenerys flew off.
It’s not impossible Dany ends up ruling but I think she’s on course for self-destruction myself. Jon being the rightful ruler isn’t going to sit well with her.
As I recall Barristan is in Meereen which is under attack from the Slavers and Iron Born. Dany at this time is a captive of the Dothraki so isn’t going to be coming in to save the day. Tyrion is still a slave at this point but timelines in the books can also jump a bit more than the show.
I’m guessing it will all play out slightly differently than the show but Dany will get back and meet Tyrion then decide to head off to Westeros.