Conleth Hill chats about his initial ambivalence towards joining Game of Thrones and Sophie Turner hints at her future filming schedule (implicit spoilers below).
Conleth Hill sat down with The Arts Desk to discuss his current run as George in a new West End production of Edward Albee’s Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf?. He discussed his early childhood exposure to the circus, which he credits for inspiring his interest in performance, and his fairly steady acting career. When asked about Game of Thrones, Hill described his tenure on the hit show as “incomparable” and “life-changing” but admitted that, initially, he wasn’t terribly interested in the project.
“I resisted it for so long,” he said. “Like a lot of people who haven’t got into it I went, ‘Oh God, dungeons and dragons, swords and sorcery, that’s now really my thing.’ My agent at the time said, “Look, they’re in Belfast, will you just go and meet them?”
Hill said he remained somewhat confused about the show’s identity even into production for season 1. “I didn’t run at it and I hadn’t a clue in that first season,” he admitted but added that he took a “Linda Gray approach” to his relatively small role in season 1, referring to the Dallas actress who made the most of her initially limited screen time.
“There was a scene where Varys didn’t have any lines but they cut away to him and I just gave a couple of filthy looks, just to make the most of it. If it’s non-verbal it doesn’t mean it’s non-communicative.”
He’s clearly warmed up to the Game of Thrones phenomenon since then and mentioned that an additional benefit to playing Varys, of all characters, is that his filming schedule is a lot less rigorous than that of his co-stars.
“My character is never in any huge battles which take days or weeks to film. So my fellow actors are up their oxters in mud and I just [have] to sit around a nice place and bitch with Peter Dinklage,” he said.
In other news, Sophie Turner appeared at the BAFTA‘s last night and discussed her future plans on Game of Thrones. Though she remained tight lipped about plot developments, there were implicit spoilers in what she did say.
“We’re about to start shooting the next X-Men, we’ve just finished shooting Season 7 of [Game of] Thrones, and I’ve got a couple of movies to do before X-Men starts. And then we go on to Season 8.”
Though it’s hardly a shocking revelation that Sophie’s signed up for the final season, fans can rest easy nonetheless in the knowledge that, yes, Sansa will survive season 7.
that confirms nothing
valar morghulis
Does anyone think any of the remaining Starks will perish before series end? Either in book or on screen?
Interesting. I’d honestly thought that Sansa maybe didn’t make it through to S8. So now should we worry about Arya?
Edit: on another note, BAFTAs were shockingly bad last night. Clumsy, amateur, really badly executed IMO.
Oh oh. My bad feeling about Arya/Maisie isn’t getting better.
I can’t see both sisters making it through S7
Apollo,
Yup. Not looking good for Arya.
Kevin Patterson,
*ahem* https://watchersonthewall.com/maisie-williams-builds-hype-exciting-season-7/
Petra,
Oh- maybe they’ll be fine. I’m cool with that
Kevin Patterson,
Hey- are you the same Kevin Patterson who’s been treating us to those sneaky glimpses from Belfast on your morning jog? ?
Ryan, Jon and Bran, although, Jon already died.
HAHA!!
… and other fans can be upset. 😉
Petra,
Hmm. That looks less positive than Sophie’s comments. And Maisie has been very busy filming other things during S7 filming.
Sansa may still have a story to tell as Lady Bolton.
Apollo,
That’s me! Working at home this week so no run past the studio.
Why are a number of people assuming one of the Stark sisters has to die in season 7?
It means nothing.
Tywin Lannister was dead but he returned to film in the S5 set as a corpse. Actors love to troll everytime with these interviews.
Kevin Patterson,
Keep up the fine work (although I guess they’ve wrapped S7 by now)!
Mr Derp,
I think it mostly has to do with the fact that people are expecting the worst in order to be pleasantly surprised
NerwenAldarion,
Mr Derp,
My guess is because the end is drawing near and that has led to speculation about main characters who will ultimately not reach the end of the series. Probably partly due to the matching tattoos they both got recently as well. Of course, they could both survive and live long and accomplished lives in Winterfell or both die when the red comet smashes into Westeros?
Is this X-Men film the same one that Maisie is going to be in? Or rumoured to be in (even though the director released art of her as one of the characters).
Jack Sharpe,
I think so. That must be exciting for them. they seem really close.
As for Sophie’s slip up. I never even thought of Sansa dying
Drat.
Ryan,
With the exception of Rickon, they’ll all probably live. I could see D&D pulling a fast one on us with Bran though.
Sansa’s plot armor is Tyrion level right now. She’s not going anywhere.
Anyway, the BAFTAs were great only because Dev and Viola won awards.
Sansa won’t die at all I think. She will be alive at the end. And Jon. I’m not sure for Bran and Arya.
Jack Sharpe,
Sophie’s talking about the next main X-Men movie, supposedly titled X-Men: Supernova. Maise is rumored to be in a spin off called New Mutants. So two different movies.
Who is Sansa going to Marry? Robin? Petyr? Jamie Lannister?
Who is Daenerys going to Marry? Jon Snow? Tyrion Lannister? Jamie Lannister? Yara Greyjoy?
Who is Arya going to Marry? Gentry? The Hound?
No way Arya dies. Benioff and Weiss wouldn’t be able to go out in public without getting booed and hissed at. GRRM would either have to disavow them or retreat into an underground bunker in New Mexico. (Sorry folks. He’s never gonna finish the books. The show end = the only end. )
My prediction: Sansa confronts a choice similar to the one in the scene on the footbridge when she was contemplating offing Joffrey. Except this time there’s no Sandor with a tissue to stop her. This time she makes a heroic self-sacrifice.
Besides, Sandor will be too busy braving fire and defending Arya.
Maybe Sansa makes it to S8. But probably not to the end of it – unless it’s just for an eye stones scene.
The thing is though, they aren’t going to say they won’t be in S8. That would be a massive spoil. I think we are going to at least lose one more Stark either this season or next season. I imagine a lot of people are gonna die S8, D&D are gonna be cleaning house.
Can’t say that I’m happy lol. Hopefully Sansa won’t overshadow any more characters and whatever happens in S7 will be well executed.
I want the whole wolf pack to make it out of S7 alive.
Bucky Cap,
I had heard about Supernova but didn’t know if it was real (and knew about New Mutants, was announced what nearly two years with Josh Boone). Thank you kind sir. Surprising that we have no idea what Supernova is – who’s directing it, who’s writing it and even who’s starring in it bar Jean Grey. Although with a title like Supernova it has to do with the Phoenix Saga. Let’s hope its better than the last time the X-Men films tried to do the Phoenix storyline.
Honestly, I’m leaning this way, too. Mostly because if one of the two has gotta go, there’s no way it can be Arya. *plugs ears* lalalalalalala, not listening to reason or rebuttals, lalalalalalala
P.S. Flayed Potatoes, hahaha your avatar ?
firstone,
In my opinion:
Sansa – either Tyrion or she’s staying single
Dany – Jon
Arya – either Gendry or she’s staying single
The Stark name has to continue, and if Bran doesn’t breed then it will continue through the female line. We’ll have to see if the show will go into much detail.
You know something, Jon Snow,
Do not mock the dragon!1111 😛
I personally don’t think either Sansa or Arya will die in season 7, but I’m not sure at all about season 8. At this early stage, everyone’s fair game in season 8 as far as I’m concerned.
My theory is that all of the Starks will be infertile. Jon because he was dead and came back, Arya because of being stabbed by the Waif, Sansa because of Ramsay, Bran because of his fall from the tower. I think part of the story is the end of the Stark line.
Flayed Potatoes,
The only trouble I have with seeing Jon and Dany together in the end is that Dany is still very much in love with Drogo. I know he’s dead and all that, but what about Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying at the end of season 2? They were still very much in love to the point where I just can’t see someone else replacing that. I just have a hard time seeing how she would truly fall in love with Jon if she’s still all about “when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east” with Drogo.
I agree that the Stark line will most likely continue, but not sure who’ll be the one to continue it. Perhaps it’ll be a bunch of families breeding together to the point where all the major families will be interrelated somehow. Tyrion and Sansa…Dany and Jon…Gendry and Arya, etc…I have no idea at this point.
firstone,
Marriages ? To paraphrase GroundBeefFace Bolton, if you think this has a Jane Austen novel ending, you haven’t been paying attention.
If there’s gonna be any third marriage for Sansa, it will be to the Night King.
As for Arya, going back to S1E4:
Ned (chuckling): “You will marry a high lord and rule his castle. And your sons shall be knights and princes and lords”
Arya: “No. That’s not me. ”
Sorry, Lovely Girl. That’s going to be your “bittersweet” ending. No voyages to see what’s west of Westeros. “Family, duty, honor” are going to compel you to be a Lady, even though you never wanted to be one. Better start rehearsing your tag line: “Do NOT call me ‘My Lady’!” You’ll have ample opportunities to use it every day.
Daeny? If she marries at all: My money’s on Jamie. (Tyrion’s mentioned him to Daeny too many times already.)
Instead of betrothals, maybe we should ask ourselves who’s going to get wightified or Benjened?
Flayed Potatoes,
Don’t mean to wake the Dragon, but yes! Great avatar ! ??
Ten Bears,
Totally agree about Arya marrying and ending up in the last place she expected to. I suspect the Starks and the Baratheons will finally be allied through marriage after all. As for Dany marrying Jaime, it’s highly unlikely. If she lives, I think her destiny is to return to the East. She might even re-establish the Valyrian Freehold. I’m low key willing to bet that just like Arya, Jaime ends up marrying for love (to Brienne) and finally shouldering the familial responsibility that he shunned when he joined the Kingsguard for Cersei. It’s worth noting that if his sister dies, he’s technically next in line to the throne as well.
That would definitely be bittersweet.
Not to mention Dany is infertile, Theon has been castrated and I can’t imagine Yara pregnant, house Tully is just Edmure, house Arryn is just a sickly boy, Cersei is rumoured to have a miscarriage next season, houses Tyrell, Martel and Baratheon are already over.
That might be the end of all the great houses.
HotPinkLipstick,
Arya’s ridiculous stabbing is show only and pure shock value. It will be buried and forgotten. As for Sansa, she was never going to get pregnant with Ramsay since she won’t even meet him in the books. Have you considered the possibility that Ramsay might be the one who is infertile though? It’s not like he impregnated Myranda or whoever he’s slept with all this time. Fatherhood is featured pretty heavily in Jon’s arc, which means that there’s a chance he might have a kid. And anyway, we don’t know what last name Jon will have at the end of the show if he makes it, so I don’t know where exactly to classify him. We don’t know if Bran will have kids. It’s not impossible for paraplegics to have kids.
I doubt George’s plan is to completely extinguish a family he’s spend so much time developing. The Starks aren’t Tyrell or Martell tier. Even the Tullys have an heir. The show might not have time to go into as much detail as we’d like, but if there are Starks left at the end of this, they’ll continue the line at one point in the future and continue to be in Winterfell. My two cents 🙂
Arya is a highly trained assassin now. I don’t see her becoming Gendry’s Lady, I wish, but, no. Arya will never be happy living a normal life, and she won’t “fit in” anymore than she ever did. When her list is complete. I think she begins her “second life” with Nymeria. So, she makes it to season 8, but not through to the end. Show Sansa does have some game left. She has to fight for her soul vs. Littlefinger. And, if she survives The Winter, I think she is The Queen. The one we least expected and thought of as the weakest, will have learned how to survive The Game.
Bran is The 3 Eyed Raven, a magical creature. He survives, but will never live a “regular human” life. And although Jon deserves happiness and to live in peace, I think he is the sacrifice to strike peace between Men and The White Walkers. That really makes me hurt to say that.:/ Anyway, my two cents for what its worth (Nothing, I know)
HotPinkLipstick,
I like (and have thought about) your infertility theory.
The silly part of my brain figures that if Bran can warg into a 6’6″ 300-lb man, he might be able to use his telekinetic powers to restore movement to his own appendage, assuming his sensory nerves were severed in the fall. But yeah, he’s probably infertile, though after Meera’s tearful emoting when she thought the wights had caught up to them, it wouldn’t surprise me if she tried to cure his impotence the old-fashioned way.
Sansa and Arya: You’re probably right. There have got to be some repercussions from their internal injuries.
As for Jon: I think it will get interesting if Bran discloses Jon’s true parentage to him. Something was set up in S6E10 by the conspicuous references to Ned as Jon’s father (eg, Jon telling Sansa, “Well, Father always promised, didn’t he?”; Jon telling the assembled Northern lords “My father used to say we find our true friends on the battlefield”; and Lyanna Mormont’s speech, “I don’t care if he’s a bastard, Ned Stark’s blood runs through his veins”).
I wonder if Jon will find himself in a situation where perpetuating the lie – even by omission – will be necessary for the greater good. Jon may feel troubled if he doesn’t correct misconceptions, and allows them to be perpetuated like “honorable” Ned did. ( Ned’s statement to Jon in S1E2, “You may not have my name but you have my blood” was sort of true but kind of deceptive.)
Jon already turned down Stannis’s offer to legitimize him as Jon Stark. But if a new queen or king offers it again (or if Jon can do it himself as KITN – I don’t know how that works), and Jon concludes that it’s imperative for the sake of unity in the imminent war vs. the WW, I wonder if he will pull a Ned, and decide to live with the lie.
If that happens, the “Stark” name would live on, albeit by subterfuge.
PS. I haven’t read the books or “the leaks”, so I’m not sure what they say about legitimizing bastards, etc. I’m just going by what the show has revealed.
It’s actually a bit difficult for me to see either Stark girl being killed in season 7. That’s especially true if I consider their book story arcs as well. Due to where we (think) they are for the last half of the season I don’t see it happening.
It’s easy to just look at it sideways and see Arya putting herself in or getting herself in dangerous situations and say that she’s likely to meet a bad end because of it. However, we have to consider that she’s been in those predicaments since the very beginning. One after another she’s survived, learned and adapted to continue on. In the unabridged storyline of the books she’s had it even tougher so far and George is spending even more time with her in FM training for something. It seems like an awful lot of buildup to be suddenly snuffed out in some basic manner or by a ‘bit-player.’ There’s also the point that everyone except Jaqen and perhaps Sandor will simply see her as the non-threatening little girl Arya Stark, if that’s the side she chooses them to see.
Sansa on the other hand is Sansa Stark, wanted for a crime she didn’t commit, consorting with a man that has committed numerous crimes and then standing in the way of his plans and desires while sitting in as Lady of Winterfell and House Stark, the Overlord House of The North. Perhaps she doesn’t make very many friends in that capacity either as she doesn’t exactly know how to rule. So while she hasn’t had to go through as many or as dangerous of situations (*) as Arya, simply being her in her position makes me think she’s in more danger. * That’s even including the show’s swapping in Jeyne’s arc.
Sansa’s storyline has become so tied to Littlefinger’s that it does seem like her ultimate goal or ‘achievement’ could be to finish him off. If she were to die I can see it happening in an act where she kills him as well.
ChellieW,
Wimsey could probably explain this better [and where is that wise monk anyway?]:
The theory that Arya will live on in a “second life” with/in Nymeria loses traction as the seasons go by without an appearance or even a mention of Nymeria since Arya was forced to chase her off in early S1. I haven’t read the books, but I understand that there are references to Arya having “wolf dreams”, and tales of a Nymeria-led Wolfpack cruising around the riverlands. But none of that is in the show.
I subscribe to the belief that when side stories and characters from the books are completely excised from the show, it must mean they’re not important to the “end-game.” The same thing with characters who met a “premature” demise on the show like Doran, Mance Rayder, and Barristan.
I also assume that with 82% of the show already aired (60/73 episodes), whatever is going to be significant has already been introduced – and reinforced.
So unless Nymeria figures prominently early on in S7, Arya ending up in a “second life” as Nymeria would come off as a contrived Direwolf Ex Machina.
Clob,
Yup. I’ve said it before: Sansa’s got a karmic debt to pay off, which she will do in a heroic act of self-sacrifice trumping self-interest.
Clob,
Let’s not forget that Sansa is “wanted for a crime she didn’t commit” because Littlefinger FRAMED her for that crime – and she knows it. Yet she’s “consorting with” that man who has “committed numerous crimes”, and enabled him to commit even more crimes. And despite knowing all of this, despite admitting that “only a fool would trust Littlefinger”, and despite knowing what his ultimate objectives are, she’s still allowed him to run around and create more “chaos.”
(I won’t even mention selling her off to the Boltons; enough has been written about the absurdity of that show-only deviation: one of the show’s rare “misfires”).
PS Don’t misunderstand me. This is NOT an anti-Sansa rant. I’m just pointing out reasons why I think Sansa’s inner conflicts will be resolved by her electing to forego self interest and die a heroic, unselfish death.
firstone, Jon told Sam he didn’t fuck Ros because he didn’t want a bastard for a reason. If Dany survives childbirth, which I doubt, his Stark genes require that he marry Dany (& rule the Iron Throne as King and Queen). They’ll both probably die before that happens and Sansa will raise the bastard in Winterfell. Happy Valentine’s Day.
From looking at that video, I can confirm with 100% accuracy that Sophie Turner is one hot mamajama.
If I’d known this when I was commissioned by Joffrey to kill Bran, I’d have taken pity on him and sailed to Braavos, and I wouldn’t be dead today.
Rhaenys Stark,
I don’t think you need to worry about that Sophie finished filming S7 last year, a lot earlier than other cast members. So i’m thinking she only has a few scenes all of them inside. From the filming pics and spoilers the season is gonna center on Team Dragonstone and Team Red Keep.
Sophie is a trouper! Check out how everyone else is dressed against the cold in the video.
That’s how the professionals roll. I see a long career ahead of her.
Catspaw Assassin,
As a fashion model? She may do very well at such an endeavor…
Ten Bears,
You may be right. But, I’m hoping beyond hope now that GRRM finishes the books, and that the Direwolves play a dominant role. I think he was quoted as saying something like, ” One does not create a vicious pack of Direwolves in the Riverlands, and abandon them” (something like that). And, in the books, Arya and Jon are both starting to meld more and more into their Direwolves identities. Jon will,out of the blue, get the taste of blood in his mouth even while he’s awake. Where he ends and the wolf begins is blurring. That kind of plot line is hard to write for TV. Its too much internal dialog. But, GRRM loves that stuff, so the books endings could be way different.
I’ll enjoy what D&D deliver in the shows, but I’m just as excited to see how The Master ends the books.
ChellieW,
From all Interviews and accounts it appears the show will have the same ending in the books. D&D know how it ends George has already told them and they’ve stated multiple times the ending of the show will be the same as the books, the ending apparently shocked them just like Hodor’s origins and Shireen’s burning shocked them. The only thing that will be different is the journey to the ending as GRRM hasn’t mapped that out yet, they’ve always stated that although the journey may be different than George’s it will lead to the exact same ending. Of course Direwolves may very well be important in George’s journey, for all we know it’s important in Jon’s resurrection and they may help reunite the Starks and fight the WW. It’s just the ending itself that probably won’t be important to have them. I imagine he’ll finish writing eventually but it could take another 10 or 20 years, his just simply made too many threads of characters and plots that I don’t think he can finish in two books without it being rushed so I think he may need to do more books.
Mr Derp,
I don’t think she is to be honest, yes she was in S2 just as Jon was still in love with ygritte the season after she died, just as Tyrion was still in love with Shae S5.
Dany dreamed about having a family her whole life and if Jon could offer that to her she would take it.
Dany never had visions about Drogo in the books, her son yes but not her husband. She also was a bit funny about Drogo, yes she dearly loved him but she kind of resented him at the same time for owning her.
Flayed Potatoes, I doubt he’ll breed, but he’s definitely marrying Meera, so I take back what I said. He’ll survive.
HotPinkLipstick,
Mind blown.
Ten Bears,
Bastards get legitimazed by whoever is sitting on the throne, it’s how Ramsay became a Bolton instead of a Snow by Tommen’s rule. So yes even though Stannis said he could it wouldn’t have taken effect unless he took the Iron Throne it wouldn’t be official otherwise. So the only person who could legitimize Jon right now would be Cersei and I somehow don’t think that is gonna happen knowing what a big fan Cersei is of Starks lol
mau,
I kind of like the idea that for Arya sails west of Westeros to continue her adventures at the end of the series similar to Frodo going west at the end of LotR.
Omg yes my baby lives … I am to Sansa what Jorah is to Dany … forever and always
ramses,
A whole pack? Unfortunately, out of 6, there are only 4 left of Stark Children (yes, Jon is a stark too). So, there goes the whole pack thing. However, I’m very much confident that Sansa and Arya will make it through season 7. Also the leak pretty much confirm it so. What their fate in S8 though, is remain to be seen.
The story can end without a lot of people dying. People can just go on with their lives after the main conflict ends. Whether or not people die, S8 will end with a lot of threads unresolved and the underpinnings to the magic forces unrevealed.
I want the whole wolf pack to enter the Twins and slaughter the Freys.
I am a little surprised how much people read into such a little statement. Even if a person would die in season 7, I think it is very likely that D&D would instruct them to not spill the beans and mention something which could be interpreted as being alive until season 8.
And then there is of course the record of Sophie in terms of interviews. Even though I like Sophie and have warmed up somewhat to Sansa, I mostly ignore all statements from Sophie related to GOT. With the exception of Kit’s deliberate misinformation (Jon’s dead), she has made the least accurate statements in interviews of all larger GOT actors in my view.
Now concerning the endgame speculation, I found the idea of no Stark heirs mentioned above by HotPinkLipstick an interesting thought that never occurred to me. It would sit well with the transition of a feudal society into something slightly more modern as some people believe it will end on the social level.
Greyhand Stonefeather,
No leaks talk. Please. ????
Flayed Potatoes,
My guess has long been that it will be Sansa who continues the Stark line (if Bran is unable to breed), I have always expected her to survive till the end.
Of course Sophie as usual spoils Sansa’s fate long before the season is due. Sansa fans can now rest easy!
Robb was willing to legitimize Jon and name him his heir in the books. I think any King can legitimize a bastard, whether or not they are on the Iron Throne.
ghost of winterfell,
Maybe he’d be considered legitimized in The North but if he ever went south he wouldn’t be, he’d still be considered a bastard. The person who sits on a throne can change things all across Westeros as they are backed up by the citadel and the faith but a self-proclaimed king can not as they don’t have that same backing.
Funnily enough I have just started watching season one again now as part of a six season marathon leading up to season seven. It’s still good although very noticeable how the actors have aged.
Regarding Sansa, it’s true she’s not one of my favourite characters and I am really struggling to see what her role is next season or the final one so I’m not overly fussed about her potentially making it through the season.
Mr Derp,
Sorry it took so long to see your comment. I agree that she doesn’t seem to be over Drogo and it will take a lot of work to convince me otherwise.
Mel,
The North seceded from the rest of the kingdoms, so as Kitn, Jon could legitimize himself if he wanted to. In the books, Robb legitimized him via his will. Anyway, I think he’ll go by Snow this season too, but either way he doesn’t need Cersei’s approval. As Varys said, “Power resides where men believe it resides”. So if the territory Jon rules over and their allies accept him as a Stark, then that’s what he is.
Mel,
I don’t think this has been clarified anywhere in the books or show. Maybe if Robb’s will comes to light, legitimising Jon, we can see how the rest of Westeros reacts to it.
Maybe it’s a trick for us to feel secure about her fate… and then she actually dies in season 7 !
Personally think Arya and Sansa both make it towards the end of series 8, but will die
Eg in Arya’s case I’m into the theory she dies with Needle in hand (killed by Faceless Men?) and spends the winter in Nymeria etc, perhaps with JonGhost alongside her ruling the pack etc
Sansa becomes Lady Lothston Mk 2 out of Harrenhall but likely gets killed towards the end
Worth mentioning though I think pretty much everyone gets killed with Westeros completely trashed, maybe Dany fakes her death and lives in House with Red Door etc
I still think Sansa will die this season. She has been known to fool fans before.
I don’t like the theories that Say Sansa should go down in flames with LF. “I don’t want (her) to fight him, I want her to fuck him (over)”, to paraphrase the man himself. That is to say, she should beat him at his own damn game, use his obvious weakness for her against him, draw him in and take him out like he did to Jon Arryn, her father, Aunt Lysa, probably Robyn soon, and so many others. That is the only, IMO, satisfying way for the Sansa and LF story to end.
If Sansa dies at some point later, no problem. But she has to take out Littlefinger and come out with hands apparently clean or I will be sorely disappointed.
If the Starks died with no heirs that would be very sad. Maybe some of them die with children on the way or Bran takes the place of 3ER when Meera is pregnant. This would ease the loss. I remember that I found some comfort in Tonks and Lupin having a child.
Ten Bears,
Karmic debt? What kind of Disney crap is that?
So suddenly (suposed) selfishness needs to be atoned for?
Some of you guys really do want this story to end like every shitty uninspired fantasy story ever, huh?
Alright what are the best estimates on a trailer? We got to get a tease sometime soon… right? Surely we wont have to wait till may for a trailer? This wait is killing me
I know that I’m dreaming at pink unicorns here but I’d like the last scene hinting to the first one at Winterfell, with the Starks as a happy family. A girl can dream, can’t she?
Theon does potentially have an heir. Remember the ship captains daughter he was giving the business to on his way back to the Iron Isles from Winterfell. Who’s to say she didn’t get pregnant.
Shy Lady Dragon,
Agreed. I hope the final scene is set in Winterfell, with the remaining Starks together. That’s where the story started, it would be nice if it ends there.
I would say a teaser of some sort towards the end of this month is roughly in line with previous seasons – certainly last year we had some teasers when filming wrapped up. It may not offer much in footage though.
For the real trailer I think it’s 1-2 months prior to the season starting so more likely April time for that if we assume end of May, some point of June for Season 7.
I think that the purpose of Sansa’s and Arya’s story is taking revenge for their parents on the Freys, the Boltons and Littlefinger. Once that is done, they will be free to move on – probably Sansa with Tyrion and Arya with Gendry.
I’m not sure I can see Arya settilingly down with Gendry, I mentioned somewhere above that I am watching season 1 (loads of foreshadowing in that) and Arya tells Ned she’s not that person to settle down and live in a castle. I feel there may be chemistry beyond Arya and Gendry but no marriage or long term relationship in my eyes.
Ghost Lunch,
You cannot give up on the Wolf Girl! No Arya, no show. It’s as simple as that.
I’m not a closet Arya fan in the least. I always readily pronounce that she’s my favorite character – has been from the first page through the last aired episode. On top of that, Maisie is now an Emmy nominated actress on and for this show! I had to bold that! We’ve watched this character grow and change from a tiny, giggly little girl into a girl fighting to survive a hostile world into a covert faceless assassin and followed her journey the entire way. If she dies even in the final episode of the entire series it will sour my mood about the story. If she dies with several episodes remaining I will enjoy the rest quite a bit less…
Clob,
I hate it when shows kill off a nonconformist female character towards the end to try to be “edgy” or “dark.” It’s why I stopped watching Dexter, though it kind of started sucking before that when the original showrunners departed.
It’s also why I really liked the movie “Carol.” In most movies following the standard trope, Rooney Mara’s character would be shot, commit suicide, or sacrifice her own happiness to conform to societal expectations. (Loved Rooney M in The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo; disappointed they’re not making the sequel.)
The lack of filming information about Sophie concerns me. I hope Sansa’s (and Arya’s!) role will not be too small in this season…
Ten Bears,
“Carol” is based on a book (a really good one actually). It was never going to have an ending that differed from the source material. No way. And I’m glad they didn’t change it.
Really glad Conleth stuck with it. He’s so amazing. I hope Varys makes it to the end.
PS
Random thing but I just saw this and it cracked me up. 🙂
Flayed Potatoes,
Thanks. I’d heard “Carol” got glowing reviews but never got around to seeing it until recently when it was on cable. I had to remind myself not to be a genre snob, and figured with Cate Blanchett and Rooney Mara it was worth taking a look for the first 15 minutes at least. It drew me in so I watched the whole thing, and I’m glad I did.
Afterwards, I was intrigued, and read a really well-written
11/30/15 New Yorker article by Margaret Talbot about author Patricia Highsmith and “The Price of Salt”, the source novel you mentioned, and its adaptation to film.
I almost gave up halfway through the movie with the appearance of “Chekhov’s revolver”, but I’m glad I didn’t.
PS. At the Independent Sprit Awards, Kate McKinnon of SNL did a spoof of the Carol-Therese lunch scene that had the stars in stitches. It’s worth a watch on YouTube if you haven’t seen it.
Like Conleth Hill suggested, the moral of the story is not to prejudge something (like GoT as a juvenile dungeons and dragons takeoff that initially didn’t interest him), because surprising quality can exist in any genre; so can unexpected disappointments (eg. for me, “Interstellar”).
I didn’t even start watching GoT until after S3, when HBO ran a pre-S4 marathon. Before that, I had been channel surfing one day and watched a 15 second snippet of some guys in ragged fur clothes sitting around some rocks in an open field, thought “eh…looks boring”, and kept flipping channels. [That was probably the scene with Jamie and Qyburn when Jamie decides to go back and save Brienne from the bear pit.)
Anyway, if I hadn’t checked out the marathon I would’ve dismissed the show as a waste of time. But all it took was that one archery scene in S1E1 of Arya showing up Bran by hitting the bullseye and taking a bow – and I was hooked.
Mel,
From your keyboard to D&D’s ears, hopefully! The less Sansa Stark, the better for me. In seriousness, though, I do think !ALL SPOILERS!
That IS it, and as far into the first episode as it took really for me to think, “Boom! She IS Arya!” We see her hating her lady needle work, listening to the boys, the bulls eye with that wide eyed ‘did you see that look,’ bow, run, giggle… then to the too large helmet. It was a perfect start for Maisie.
——
I’ll have to check out that Carol movie. I saw it in my listing the other night and skipped over it.
Ten Bears,
Yes, I’ve seen the skit 😀 I’m a fan of Kate and I try to watch her in as many things as I can.
Leaks test:
spoiler test spoiler
Well that didn’t work
It’s:
[ spoiler] test [ /spoiler] without any spaces inside the brackets.
Clob,
Thanks 🙂 Think I got it now
My prediction for which Stark will have an heir…
Leaks:
Mr Derp,
I definitely think Dany will have a child both in the show and the books her entire story has revolved around motherhood, show Dany practically says every season she can’t have children, D&D have never said she’s infertile only that Dany BELIEVES she can’t have children. The end of the last book Dany bleeds for the first time since she was cursed by the witch and tastes the same sweetness in her mouth that she tasted when she was cursed. So I think it’s all leading up to Dany having a child she thought she could never have.
Vincent Stark,
From filming spoilers and pics and reports all from this site. I would say Winterfell doesn’t have a massive part next season, I do think however Maisie will be in more of the season than Sophie. The thing is though they tied up Winterfell last season, now they just need to tie up all the characters coming together for the final push of S8.
ghost of winterfell,
He didn’t do that in the show though not that it matters because Jon as a Snow is King In The North. Just like I thought it would be important in the books when Jeor Mormont told Sam when he was dying to find his son Jorah and tell him he would be forgiven if he took over the Nights Watch but that also didn’t happen in the show.
Jon Snowed,
I think either Arya will settle down with Gendry to do her duty perhaps if there are no Starks left that can continue the line or if there are she’ll sail West like she said she wanted to last season to see what’s out there.
I don’t believe for a second that Arya will end up having to be the Lady of Winterfell at the end and that’s supposed to be her “bittersweet” ending. It’s not impossible, but it’s just completely against her character. If Arya was told she had to be a Lady, she’d most likely say f*ck it and leave anyway. Is someone going to force her to stay there?
I agree that events in her story do certainly make one believe she will or could at least become pregnant by the end. Is that any indicator that she will live through everything? Maybe. *shrug* If the ‘plan’ is for her to have a child it seems like they’re short on time for her to do that and still be killed before the end.
I’m thinking it will be fairly even between the two.
That’s just basing it on if you believe there’s any truth in leaks, or even read them…
The early episodes will have Jon still there with Sansa while Arya is doing her things and traveling to Winterfell. They could have roughly equal time in those.
Mel,
Well, if they abandon Winterfell for the rest of the series after all the trouble the Starks have gone through to retake it (as well as lots of “embedded” dialog throughly six seasons about the WF crypts, the Kings of Winter, a Stark always being in WF, etc), it’d be like Camelot in Monty Python and the Holy Grail: After a whole song and dance about Camelot and rounding up Knights to join him there, King Arthur changes his mind and announces [paraphrasing]:
“On second thought, let’s not go to Camelot; ’tis a silly place.”
Speculation-wise, I figured if the WW invade, WF would be site of the first “big” encounter.
(And before anyone brings this up…. Yeah, I know, I know: What about if the Night King gets ahold of LF-Varys teleportation technology? ?? Then he could simply bypass WF altogether, and tell the Army of the Dead: “On second thought, let’s not go to Winterfell. Tis a silly place.”)
Also, I can’t scroll up while typing, but a recent commenter said she/he would like the show to conclude where it started: with the Stark family in WF. I don’t necessarily think this would be a cotton candy and unicorns conclusion. It’d be perfect symmetry.
Finally, in one of my 1-in-1,000 far-fetched scenarios, the Prince(ss) that was Promised has been or will be born in WF.
One other thing: As a non-books, anti-leaks, show-only, Aryaphilic fan, I consider one of the stories told in GoT to be the diaspora* of the Stark family from their ancestral homeland – and the efforts of the survivors to return to it:
Ned, Robb & Catelyn head south and never come back. Bran, Rickon and Hodor head north, and now (only) Bran is heading back south. Jon left for Castle Black, and after 6 seasons in CB and north of the Wall finally made it back to re-take WF from the Boltons. Sansa couldn’t wait to leave WF, then wished she’d never left, and became determined to reclaim WF or die trying. Arya left WF as a little girl in S1E2, and after road trips and (mis-)adventures all over the place posing under assumed names and no name, finally declared, “A girl is Arya Stark of Winterfell, and I’m going home.” (I think the series may conclude with Arya as Lady of Winterfell.)
Meanwhile, from Daeny’s visions, the Capitol may wind up being a Ghost Town, sort of a Doom of Old Valaryia Redux. Or maybe the climates invert and the South becomes the “new Arctic” while WF becomes the new Bahamas — in Bran’s WW origins vision quest into the distant past, the North looked like a lush, green place.
Bottom line: There seem to be too many loose ends that still have to be tied together at WF, and indications that the story will end up there right where it began.
*I think that’s the right word
Ten Bears,
I don’t think they are abandoning Winterfell just that there isn’t much story to tell there in S7, I imagine it’ll the place of operations everyone is at in S8 to stage their attack against the White Walkers and it may be their place of final defence if the Wall comes down which may involve Winterfell being more destroyed than it is right now. One of the final scenes of the show may be people rebuilding it.
Clob,
The thing with that though
QueenofThrones,
About LF’s “obvious weakness for her [Sansa]”:
That’s (one of the things that) bothered me about LF’s “plan” to marry off Sansa to the Boltons.
Whether LF is a psycho or a narcissist; and whether his motivation is to get back at the Starks for his childhood rejection or recapture his “lost love” through Cat 2.0, it made no sense that he would sell off Sansa’s virtue to a strange man – for ANY price. Even if Ramsay had been a choir boy, Peter “I want Everything” Baelish would never give away the chance to despoil Sansa himself.
Regardless of the cause of his “obvious weakness” — a malevolent desire to screw over the Starks; a twisted lust for Cat’s doppelganger; jealousy, or perhaps a scintilla of genuine affection — his willingness to give away that prize to any other man was out of character for him, or for anyone.
Clob,
Daeny getting pregnant? Say it ain’t so. I’d been worried that GRRM and D&D would blindside us with the offspring of an existing character as the fulfillment of the Prince that was Promised prophecy, and end the series abruptly in the middle of the mankind vs. WW world war while waiting for the infant to grow up. (Sort of like how “The Terminator” ended with Sarah Connor pregnant with future savior John Connor)
Mr Derp,
That’s why it’d be bittersweet. The LAST thing in the world she’d want is to be stuck in a castle as the “Lady of Winterfell” or anywhere else. And of course her immediate reaction to anyone who suggests it would be to tell him to f–k off.
But Arya would take seriously the Tully words “family, duty, honor” (if I got the order right). If “there must always be a Stark in WF” for some good reason and she’s the only one available (eg if Jon comes out of the closest as a Targ and Bran goes off to live in a weirwood treehouse), she would probably subordinate her own personal desires.
Look, I hope not. I’d love to see as the closing shot of the series in S8 a scene similar to the finale of S4: Arya on the deck of a ship sailing off to new adventures, with a soaring vocal chorus in the background. ⛵️????
Ten Bears,
Edit: “Closet”, not “closest.” Damn Auto-Correct.
Interesting. When I watched that scene, and the previous one where Arya was looking with dismay at her crooked stitches, I had the opposite reaction . I worried that she would be the cliche tomboy who hated all girly things and just wanted to be one of the boys. Thankfully, as I continued watching, I realized that she is soo much more than that. Of course it helped that Maisie was so adorable that you just can’t help loving her.
ghost of winterfell,
Adorable is right. And check out Maisie’s wordless, perfect acting – her mischievous smile during the feast when spoon-flinging food at Sansa, that turns to a pout when Robb picks her up and tells her “time for bed.”
So natural. So perfect.
Late to the (very rich) discussion. As both a book reader (where the direwolves have a more prominent role) and show fan, I maintain the hope that the direwolves’ names, given to them by the Stark children, reflect their fates. So this is how I see it…
Shaggydog: Not even acknowledged as “wolf,” but called “dog,” never well disciplined, reflective of his master, and felled before him–the young, inexperienced, hapless, and most unfortunate Rickon.
Summer: Like Bran, a “sweet summer child,” doomed to meet his defining fate before winter fell. For Summer, that defining fate was to die before winter fell; for Bran, it was to have his most precious possession–his physical capacity to climb–taken in his summer childhood.
Grey Wind: Like Robb, who passed through history like a wind–memorable to those present, but soon to be forgotten by later generations (like any great storm eventually is).
Lady: The shortest-lived of them all, and most clearly reflective of her person–one who could not have survived the cutthroat court of the South without becoming hardened to its intrigues. “A true lady never forgets her courtesies” was all she knew as a starry-eyed young woman heading south. Now she knows that if *all* one chooses to remember is what one is taught as a future “lady,” one will not survive.
Nymeria: In the backstory, a warrior queen who burned her ships and became one of the founders of present-day Dorne. Many of us have tried to imagine what Arya’s bittersweet ending might be, if she lives; I think that, if she doesn’t make it as a westward-bound adventurer, she might be one of the people who rebuilds Dorne after the annihilation of House Martell. It would be bittersweet because 1) she would remain in Westeros, but far away from her beloved North, and 2) she would remain bound to Westeros, and never attain her dream of sailing free to the unknown west.
Ghost: The one I still have no clear thoughts about. In the books, the Children of the Forest indicate that, as their time is coming to an end, so is the direwolves’. If he’s the last surviving direwolf, he might be the ghost of times past. Or, he may be the ghost of Rhaegar incarnate (“fire and blood” in his red eyes, white in his fur).
Thoughts?
Wolfish,
I think your direwolves names analysis is perfect, except for Arya moving to Dorne. She really proved to be a warrior, fighting for the rightful ones and avenging her family. She’s noble and courageous, so she’s Nymeria.
I’d add another connotation to Ghost (although I like yours): Jon returned from the emptiness of death, being more a spirit than a mortal from common people’s point of view.
Ten Bears,
I also had symmetry in mind when I wished for a Winterfell scene ending. But all the (surviving) Starks happy and with children, leaving peacefully seems sweet, with no bitter part – if you refer only to present state, leaving out past tragedies. That’s way I was afraid such a blissful ending would look too unicorny to our GRRM, who only looks like Santa Claus.
Shy Lady Dragon,
You mean the GRRinch, who only looks like Santa Claus so he can sneak in and steal Christmas?
I’ve always envisioned that humans in Westeros ‘d feel that they stand a chance against WW when: 1) the knowledge that dragonglass disintegrates them spreads across land, 2) people learn that dragons might aid their fight….here’ll be initial glimmers of victory (perhaps the WW might retreat in the first battle)but then tables will turn and the WW will proceed to kill off majority of the Westeros population maybe in the order of 90% including some of our beloved protagonists. then, just when they’re about to finish off their job, bran and sam learn a certain fact that can help ‘switch off’ WW in some sense. it’ll involve bran warging into drogon (knowing fully that there’ll be no coming back) and destroying a certain powerhouse of theirs. it’ll be a really sad and emotional scene when bran says his goodbyes to his siblings. the mission will encounter an error that’ll result in it being only partially successful. that’d be when suicide squad 2.0 travel up north to complete the mission and we’ll lose many major characters. just when night king is about to turn little sam, the ‘switch’ would have been turned off and night king ‘ll disintegrate, so ‘ll the rest of the WW and their undead army. Jon will become some sort of ruler (not king!!!)over the remaining population and the final shot will be a one-handed Jon helping other male survivors build some form of colony.
Wolfish,
The fact that Cersei forced Ned to kill Lady in place of Nymeria could be another bit of foreshadowing that Arya will take the place of Sansa as a Lady.
Ten Bears,
Nobody could have said it better! 😉
Lonely Cat,
I like that ! The wild wolf (Arya/Nymeria) will have to tame herself to take the place of the sacrificed “Lady.”
P.S. On a semi-related note, I’m confused by two scenes involving Sansa. Maybe somebody can enlighten me:
•. First, right before LF shoved Lysa through the moon door, she was yelling at him: “I lied for you! I killed for you!”
Sansa was nearby. Shaken, but nearby.
Q: I couldn’t tell if Sansa heard Lysa’s admissions. My TV resolution and volume aren’t that great.
Did anyone notice if Sansa did hear or must have heard what Lysa said?
If so, did Sansa put two and two together and realize that Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn?
•. Second. (Post-Purple Wedding) : Aboard the ship, right after LF “rescued” Sansa and silenced poor Ser Dontos with a bolt to the heart, LF admitted he and his “new friends” killed Joffrey.
It seemed to me that there were a hundred different ways to deliver the poison without using Sansa’s necklace and without implicating Sansa in the crime. (Olenna could’ve just stashed the poisoned stone up her sleeve.) Yet, LF unnecessarily framed Sansa for regicide and treason. Even if Tyrion was left holding the proverbial bag, I didn’t see how the ruse required Sansa to be framed.
Q: Why didn’t Sansa ever freak out on LF for falsely implicating her in Joffrey’s poisoning ? And why didn’t she ever demand that he get her off the hook? Sansa found herself #1 on the country’s Most Wanted list because of LF’s murder conspiracy, but I don’t recall her ever calling him out for doing this to her.
Did I miss something ?
Thanks for any insights.
Ten Bears,
Great questions. Not really sure if I have the answers at all. Lysa says “I lied for you and killed for you” or whatever when Sansa was right there, so she must’ve heard that, but wasn’t specific enough for Sansa to really put anything together I dont think.
Robin escorted Sansa out of the room before the conversation between Lysa and Baelish about the poison and letter, so I don’t think Sansa heard that at all.
I think Baelish involved Sansa in the Purple Wedding murder because he wanted Sansa to feel that she had no choice at the time but to go along with Baelish and escape Kings Landing. It’s exactly what he wanted.
I have no idea why Sansa didn’t freak out on Baelish at some point regarding framing her for the murder. Seems like they kind of just forgot about that, but I could be wrong. Perhaps she was just relieved to be out of Kings Landing finally and that’s as far as she thought it through.
Ten Bears,
You didn’t miss anything and made some very good points.
I think that Sansa was still scared of her aunt and relieved of nearly escaping death to process or even remember Lysa’s words, for which she missed the context.
The second case is more difficult to untangle. As you wrote, killing Joffrey could have been done without involving Sansa. But she was used as the villain who seemingly had attracted Tyrion in planning the murder, she had the best reason and Cersei would easily find a Stark guilty, especially one who had been physically and psychologically abused by her darling son. I suppose Littlefinger schemed to make Sansa dependent of him, letting her feel that he was the best solution for her, even if she realized his true colours.
Edit: while reading the comment above mine I noticed that I mixed up the scenes between Sansa and Lysa, so my explanation couldn’t be valid.
Just been watching Gemma Whelan in a BBC series called ‘The Moorside’ – totally unrecognisable as the actress who played Yara!
Shy Lady Dragon,
Actually, I don’t think you mixed up anything. True, Sansa didn’t hear the prior, private LF-Lysa conversation in which Lysa specifically mentioned administering poison drops to Jon Arryn and writing the bogus letter to Cat falsely blaming the Lannisters (both at LF’s request). But Sansa was right there for her Aunt Lysa’s “I killed for you! I lied for you!” freak out. (Sansa had also earlier heard Lysa mention obliquely that everyone who’d tried to get between her and Petyr weren’t
around long. )
I just figured that no matter how shaken Sansa was, she had heard enough to understand that LF and Lysa murdered Jon Arryn – Ned’s surrogate father.
As to the murder of Joffrey: Pretty much the first thing that LF did after killing Dontos was to admit to Sansa that he conspired to kill Jofffey – and even showed her the fake heirloom necklace and explained that it was the murder weapon. Again, it seemed that Olenna fidgeting with Sansa’s necklace (but secretly removing the poisoned stone) added an unnecessary step to the stealth poisoning plan. (Not to mention that Olenna could’ve easily dropped the little stone, somebody could’ve noticed she was screwing around with the stones or dropping something in Joffrey’s goblet, etc). Besides, smart cookies like the a Queen of Thorns don’t get involved in actual assassinations: they stay safely secreted, away from the scene of the crime. But forgetting that for a moment, Sansa knew ( from LF’s prior offer that she’d rejected) that he could engineer her escape without a public assassination.
I don’t mean to ramble on about this. Even if LF’s scheme was to make her dependent on him, I just don’t know why she would never confront him and say, “why would you frame me like this ?”; and demand or beg him to exonerate her.
Sure, it must’ve been comforting to know that her sadistic tormentor was dead, but LF took her out of the frying pan and put her into the fire.
She saw him murder Dontos to silence him about his role in the necklace charade and escape; she heard LF admit he was behind the murder for which she was falsely accused and faced the death penalty.
She later heard her aunt Lysa wailing about killing for him and lying for him. And not that it mattered to Sansa, but she knew that Tyrion – who’d treated her with kindness and respect – was also framed for the murder.
I just can’t fathom why she wasn’t the least bit upset with him for framing her for murder.
PS. Sorry I can’t edit and condense this.
Sansa may not trust Littlefinger, but she admires his ability to play the game. She will put up with almost anything until she learns something that allows her to beat him at the game and win what she has always wanted — to be queen.
Ten Bears,
Edit/Addendum…
I guess I also didn’t understand why LF confessed to her in the first place. Nor did I understand why he’d describe how he set her up to be the fall guy.
I figured he could’ve killed Dontos and simply told Sansa, “Look, I’m so sorry, but he was on my payroll and was assigned to protect you, but he messed up and now he’s put us both in jeopardy. He’s a drunk, and he’d give us both up in a minute after a few drinks or a couple of bucks.” LF could’ve painted himself as her unselfish savior, who grudgingly whacked one of his own henchmen to insure her freedom.
What did he have to gain by admitting he plotted the murder AND that he’d implicated her in it? I don’t get it.
Lonely Cat,
Your assessment of Sansa is certainly consistent with the explanation of her seemingly inexplicable actions as the behavior of someone who has no compunctions about sacrificing innocent lives in order to achieve her own selfish ambitions – in stark* contrast to her sister, who will not take innocent lives even if it puts her own life in peril.
Frankly, after watching Sansa glide down the stairs in her “Darth Sansa” outfit at the end of S4, I was hoping we were seeing the evolution of a real “player” – a combination of Margaery and Cersei who’d use her feminine wiles and charm to ascend “the ladder.” Even when she agreed to the ridiculous Bolton marriage plan, I was holding out hope that the showrunners had constructed a femme fatale role** for her (eg, become BFFs with Fat Walda, and charm and connive to convince Ramsay and Roose to kill each other).
* Pun intended
* *Like Linda Fioretino’s character in “The Last Seduction”: get men to do what you want by making them believe they came up with the idea on their own.
Probably because he wasn’t in his brothel and/or have any of his girls left to ‘perform’ while he went off on a fifteen minute monologue describing for the viewer all of the bad things he’s done recently. 😛
Lonely Cat,
But didn’t Sansa already learn something “that allowed her to beat him at the game” ?
All she had to do is tell the Lords of the Vale:
“My real name is Sansa Stark. You knew my father. He grew up here. He was an honorable man. I cannot lie to you. I know my Aunt Lysa was bats-it crazy, and a jealous woman, but for whatever reason she loved Lord Baelish. She didn’t commit suicide. Lord Baelish hit on me because he thinks I look like my mom. My Aunt Lysa got upset and started crying. Lord Baelish went over to her and it looked like he was trying to comfort her – but then without warning he pushed her out the moon door. ”
All of that was true. The Lords of the Vale despised LF. They wouldn’t have bought into any of his BS. They would’ve gladly “made the bad man fly” out the moon door. Sansa could’ve proceeded with an arranged marriage to Robyn, and been one step closer to becoming Queen.
———–
Sansa could’ve also mentioned at the inquest:
” Oh, and by the way, the reason I dyed my hair and have been using an assumed name is because Lord Baelish framed me for poisoning Joffrey. He told me so. I think he also plotted the death of Jon Arryn, but I don’t have direct proof of that.”
Clob,
???
Kind of makes you miss the old days of “sexposition” on GoT before political correctness or whatever it was went ballistic over even slightly risqué brothel scenes. (But chopping off heads? I didn’t hear a peep. )
Clob,
In all seriousness, I thought all of the criticism about gratuitous nudity was completely unwarranted, and missed the subtext of those scenes. In my view, they provide insight into what a warped, de-sexed sick f-ck LF really is: he’s oblivious to the naked women in the background, isn’t aroused by them, treats them as merchandise, and considers sex only as a commodity. He yammers on about himself, his inadequacies and his humiliations, and talks of exacting vengeance in sexual terms.
This wacked-out mindset may explain in part why he (thinks he) is romantically obsessed with Ssnsa, but has treated her as merchandise — or as just another form of currency to buy his way up his stupid ladder.
In any event, I never understood what the furor was about. Nothing was distasteful or excessive. And after all, HBO is cable TV. As much as Kit Harington wants to appear on Sesame Street, GoT isn’t a Saturday morning network kiddie show. Nobody is forcing anyone to subscribe to (or pirate) HBO.
I guess I have a disdain for censorship-by-backlash, or standards of decency dictated by a few oversensitive individuals. Personally, I could’ve done without Janos Slynt’s decapitation and Tristane Martell’s skull-skewering*, but thought Jon and Ygritte’s love scene was beautifully done, and Tyene’s jail cell flirtation with Bronn was pretty tame. I found nothing repugnant about (and rather enjoyed) the scene graphically showing the surgical procedures Arya methodically performed on Meryn F. Trant, but would’t want to be labeled a hypocrite because I didn’t like Theon’s extended torture scenes.
Anyway, it would suck if the showrunners feel handcuffed in portraying the perverse Sansa-LF relationship, or presenting adult themes in general, just because a small minority of viewers get bent out of shape over a bare breast.
* Admittedly, some viewers felt the whole Dorne subplot was an abomination, and had to cover their eyes when Dorne scenes came on. ? For me, the High Sparrow and his forehead-carving morons were unwatchable. To each his/her own.
Apologies. Unintended Anti-Censorship rant concluded.
Ten Bears,
That’s because chopping off heads are in religious texts but enjoying sex isn’t.
Ten Bears,
I think D&D improved on the intimate scenes to be honest, some of GRRM’s intimate scenes and there are a lot more are pretty cringe worthy, It would of made viewers cringe too. Like Sam and Gilly, when they were together in the books there was this whole thing where he drank her milk and loved it, it was pretty damn gross. Also they made Dany’s clothes more modest in the show, in the books she practically always has one breast out of her dress because that’s the style in Essos, I remember they was a outrage from some book readers because the show didn’t do that which would not only have taken away from her more serious scenes but is gross because she’s 14 in the book.
It seems like they have toned down the show compared to the earlier seasons, not as many nude scenes, intimate scenes, still murder scenes but at least they didn’t show it too in depth like they were originally going to show a lot more of Ramsay’s face being eaten by his hounds but the director decided against it.
Real life is nudity, swearing, brutality, terrible atrocities, etc. Clean, censored, network television isn’t reality. Life isn’t Pleasantville anymore, if it ever truly was. It’s probably one reason why, in today’s world, premium cable shows win the awards and receive more praise. They are showing life in a more true manner. People seem to connect with things that are more realistic, even in a fantasy setting. Outrage over things shown on programs is narrowing slowly and censorship does seem to be loosening to keep pace. For example, I was watching Taboo when it started and was surprised to hear so much swearing and see more nudity than expected from a basic cable channel.
Mel,
The one breast out dress code belonged to just Qarth, not all of Essos. Dany only dressed that way in Qarth. But yeah GRRM’s depiction of the eastern cultures was ridiculous and cartoonish, to say the least. Just look at Tyrion’s chapters describing the Yunkish army. They couldn’t be more unrealistic.
Are there any well written intimate scenes in the books? When I think of sex scenes, all I can remember are fat pink mast and the Myrish swamp 🙂
ghost of winterfell,
I remember people complaining that Daario didn’t have a blue beard, that would of looked so god awful in the show.
Don’t think he did, even Jon’s thought’s of ygritte sexually made me cringe. GRRM is a amazing writer but sex scenes are not his forte, I don’t think I’ve liked a single one of them.
Ten Bears,
Slynt’s decapitation scene is actually very important plot wise and adds to Jon’s character development. He asserts his authority instantly. The method of his death is also important and needed to be shown, as it gives you an idea of how Jon internalized Ned’s lessons, bringing him closer to his Stark side.
Trystane’s death scene is superfluous I agree. He could have died any other way and it wouldn’t have made a difference.
No.
Ten Bears,
I suppose Sansa chose the devil she knew and the one she hoped could look after her interests due to his attraction to her. She imagined he would take her to his birthplace, some peaceful remote region far from the court and its schemes. Had she imagined being forced to marry in the Bolton family (even if Ramsey happened to be a decent guy, but still the son of her relatives’ murderer), she might have chosen to ask protection to the gentle old lady in the Vale (I don’t remember her name, she appeared in about two scenes with Lord Royce).
Many people see Sansa’s evolution stopped, but I prefer to consider it realistic. In real life people don’t become courageous, intelligent, skillful etc immediately after they decide to change. It takes a lot of pain and repeated fails until they accomplish what they want… if they finally manage to. One step forward and two steps back is, sadly, the pattern for a lot of us. In real life things don’t get smoothly and people very frequently don’t act and react in a logical manner.
She should have confronted Littlefinger stating all the wrongs he had done to her. Indeed, it would have been the normal thing to do. I guess in the beginning she was only happy and relieved to get out of Kings Landing… and was too selfish to care for Tyrion, who had always been so friendly and understanding. Then she preferred the familiar Littlefinger to some people she had just met, no matter how good-willed they seemed. Finally, when she met him in Molestown, the torment she had suffered because of Ramsay was still so new, that she couldn’t think at anything else. Seven Hells, the normal thing to do would have been to ask Brienne to kill him! But I think she considered carefully that he could be more useful to her alive than dead.
Ten Bears,
I do love theatre, watching Shakespeare is a treat for me. But with theatre there comes a lot of conventions, which I expect and embrace. Intelligent means of hinting, not showing is what I want from a play.
I remember watching Kenneth Branagh’s Henry V for the first time and the revelation this film meant to me. When I saw the surviving soldiers at Agincourt full of blood and mud I applauded the director who showed me, for the first time, a realistic picture. Before then, people coming from battles looked as smart and clean as the actors coming out from their dressing rooms.
I have to add that I was 21 when dictatorship was abolished in my country and I finally could watch anything on national tv and pay for lots of other channels. So, I hate censorship and I feel a good movie/series must present a truthful, vivid image of life. I don’t mind at all nudity and sex on tv (nowadays nudity on stage is frequent at the theatres in my town). Even if I don’t enjoy violence and sometimes I find it hard to watch, I think it needs to be shown in order to present life as it is.
Ten Bears,
I’ve interpreted some of the Sansa storyline issues perhaps more positively or leniently than you seem to do. My interpretation is admittedly informed by having read the books, which give more inner dialogue and a deeper understanding of character motivations (Sansa. LF isn’t a POV character so we don’t get his inner thoughts). The show has perhaps failed to convey some and discarded others, but we are where we are.
As to the whole Joffrey poisoning scheme. My take is that LF implicated Lady Olenna (and therefore other Tyrells) and Sansa to have a hold over them. LF telling Sansa about it is about power. He demonstrates to her that he’s powerful enough to murder a king but he also subtly hints that Sansa, suspected/accused and, in fact, unknowingly complicit in the crime, is now in his power. He, and he alone, has the power to protect and save Sansa… if she does as he wishes. It’s psychological warfare on a vulnerable (and still a fairly naive) young girl.
(BTW, the necklace thing. The poison might be difficult to obtain so LF could rope in Olenna by helpfully providing the poison, with the added benefit to Olenna that she only needed to have a deadly poison in her possession for some short moments, with no track leading back to her, save for the secret connection to LF… Which leads to Olenna being in LF’s power, at least until Cersei kills the rest of her family.)
As to the confrontation with the Lords of the Vale after Lysa’s death. Sansa knew her father grew up in the Vale and the Vale lords are vaguely positively disposed towards individual Starks… But they never took up the Stark/Northern cause in the War of the Five Kings, they remained neutral (mostly due to Lysa), and are therefore still loyal subjects of the Iron Throne. Sansa could not gamble on them all protecting her for Ned’s sake, what with the regicide charge hanging over her head and all, whereas LF (who’d ursurped power in the Vale through Robin by this point) had made it clear he would protect her. So she let out enough of the truth to make the lies seem plausible. (playing the game…)
So far no problem for me. I can understand that show-only people might not get all this because the show maybe didn’t succeed in conveying Sansa’s inner terror and reasoning. The final Sansa scene in S4, with her walking down the steps in the beautiful, grown-up “Dark Sansa” dress… It’s a reference to where Sansa is now in the books and the published preview chapter from TWOW. She’s been groomed by LF to play the game, she’s beginning to feel more confident than ever since the incident on the Trident (Sansa, Joffrey, Arya, Mycah, Nymeria, leading to Cersei ordering Ned to kill Lady (Sansa’s direwolf) and King Robert just standing by, washing his hands).
As to the show S5 Sansa storyline, to bring her to the North to marry Ramsay… That’s where character motivations go awry. I agree with others above who’ve said LF wouldn’t sell his star prize (and the object of his thwarted, sick affection, Cat 2.0) to some recently legitimised Bolton bastard.
I’ll put the next bit in spoilers because it’s book stuff.
In the books, it seems all kinds of shenanigans will go on in the Vale, but there’s hints that it’ll end with Sansa taking the Knigts of the Vale North for Winterfell – pretty much same as the show thing.
In the books, the poor girl who was made to marry Ramsay and endure his tortures was Sansa’s childhood friend Jeyne Poole (WF’s steward Vayon Poole’s daughter), who was presented as Lady Arya Stark to the Northern lords. But even Jaime Lannister, who saw the poor girl as she was leaving Kings Landing (after an “education” by LF) with a Bolton convoy, realised she wasn’t the real Arya. But it was politically expedient, the real Lady Arya Stark was missing, presumed dead ever since Cersei’s scouring of all Starks and their loyal bannermen and servants the day King Robert died.
However, it might not all go LF’s way. The student (Sansa) might overtake the teacher in a thing or two, related to her family and her home, and even the real war. I’m confident Sansa will be the one to take down LF and destroy him because she’s the only one who knows his secrets and his desires. Sansa will turn out to be LF’s fatal weakness, his fatal flaw, because she’s not like his fantasy of her, tractable and complicit. Deep down, she’s a northern wolf girl, and that’s why she’ll be able to destroy him.
I don’t care what Sansa does afterwards. Maybe she’ll die in the final war, maybe she’ll survive and reconcile with her husband Tyrion and become the Lady of Casterly Rock. Meh.
Sorry for long post, but too many interesting ideas/questions. Har!
Flayed Potatoes,
Slynt’s decaptiation scene is important and had to be shown. It’s Jon (newly elected LC) asserting his authority over the NW (and incidentally also over Cersei/KL through their toady Janos Slynt), and doing the Ned thing – the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. So that he can look the condemned man in the eye. Not enjoy executions. We viewers might’ve enjoyed it but Jon didn’t.
What I didn’t like in the show was Janos Slynt’s gibbering on the block about how he was always afraid (=needless exposition), we knew that already.
Here’s the book gem… I’ll put it in spoilers.
talvikorppi,
I love all of Jon’s execution scenes. I demand that every season have one!
Clob,
Testing. Testing. 1 2 3
Seven blessing on you, Clob. I’ve been trying to figure out spoiler marking for ages!
Though a latecomer to this thread, I’m very impressed with the sentiments you’ve all expressed. Sansa is a self-centered, ambitious troublemaker, and has never reflected the Stark ethos. In the books, she began as an semi-traitor to her family and Northern values. The poetic justice of her losing Lady after siding with Joffrey against Arya and Mycah symbolised this. But the crowning blow of her treachery, for which I’ve never forgiven her, was in the first book. To quote the Wiki of Ice and Fire:
D&D made her more palatable by omitting that. But the fact that even years later she clings to the patently evil and manipulative Littlefinger despite seeing him murder Ser Dontos and knowing that he also murdered Joffrey and someone else via Lysa is also unforgivable. Those of you who theorise that Sansa’s fate is tied to Littlefinger’s are probably right–she’s chosen him as much as he’s chosen her. Littlefinger is the chief viper of the Kings Landing vipers’ nest (as Ned called it), so by keeping LF in Winterfell she’s endangering everyone there, including herself. LF could easily kill her or have her killed for a multitude of political, self-protective, or vindictive reasons, not least that if he can’t have her, nobody will. As a precaution he could order a Vale soldier to kill her in case he dies.
I’m torn about Sansa’s fate. I’d like to see her die for her treachery, but she’s still a Stark and is somewhat responsible for regaining Winterfell. IMO she can live so long as her far superior, truthful and more loyal sister also lives. Perhaps the best narrative compromise for Sansa would be for her to be married off to Robin Arryn and out of the way in the Vale. She is inappropriate and unqualified to be Lady of Winterfell or Queen of the North in her own right, and gods forbid she marry Jon.
So…who carries on the Stark name and who rules Winterfell? Jon, if he becomes a Stark, or even Bran, who might still be able to father children. Do not rule out Arya. She has never wanted to be a lady in the traditional way. She always does her own thing. She had feelings for Gendry which at the time she was too young to fully understand but would understand now. It’s quite possible those two will come together. Also, she had asked Ned if she could be lord of a holdfast. And she personally associated herself with two successful ruler queens (whose names even end in the same syllable as hers). So she could indeed marry, and do her own thing by commanding Winterfell or Storms End…or even a kingdom. On her terms, she’d probably be comfortable with that outcome, even though it meant giving up on some freedom and some dreams. Or perhaps she’ll take the more bittersweet compromise D&D have made available to her her, and lead an expedition to find the new world west of Westeros. In any case, I think she’ll live through Season 7 and hopefully Season 8.
Flayed Potatoes,
I didn’t mean to imply that Slynt’s decapitation wasn’t a significant event. Like you said, it was important to show Jon Snow’s exercise of his authority as LC, and of course it harkened back to Ned’s passing the sentence and swinging the sword in S1E1. Frankly, I hated that cue ball-headed baby killing coward, and it was satisfying to watch that blustery jackass try too disobey and insult Jon, who calmly confirms Slynt’s refusal to obey his order and then has him escorted outside to be executed.
I should’ve used a different scene as an example. It was just the split second (and great special effects) of Slynt’s headless neck as his noggin is sliced off that was pretty graphic.
But my point was simply that even if I didn’t like such graphic images, I would never suggest they shouldn’t be shown; likewise, someone else may find it offensive to see naked woman practicing pleasuring techniques on each other, while I appreciate the sensuality of such a scene.
And I should mention that the Slynt insubordination-execution scene is part of my “mixtape” of rewatches; it’s paired with Tyrion’s going-away dinner for the Wall-bound Slynt – [TL: “I’m not questioning your honor. I’m denying its existence.”]