Brazil Comic Con (CCXP) in Sao Paulo, Brazil, is in its final day, but the weekend left behind some wonderful interview moments from showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss, Maisie Williams (Arya Stark) and John Bradley (Samwell Tarly). While nothing truly spoilery was revealed, it was nice to see the promotion and publicity continue to ramp up ahead of the eighth and final season, especially on the heels of the visually stunning teaser trailer released on Friday — and Williams did drop a tantalizing sentence or two about the “most exciting moment” for Arya.
Making Game of Thrones and the show’s official Twitter account followed all of the news and interviews coming out of CCXP, including this endearing side-by-side of Williams and Bradley taking their turns on the Iron Throne:
Raise a banner for House Stark.@Maisie_Williams and @johnbradleywest take a seat on the Iron Throne at #GOTXP. pic.twitter.com/UrdfHskwzL
— Game Of Thrones (@GameOfThrones) December 6, 2018
Both actors were blown away by the enthusiasm for Game of Thrones, with Williams saying that the fan reception was “wild.”
“I’ve never come to South America before. I’m on the other side of the planet, and here there are still people who know who I am and appreciate what I do,” she told Making Game of Thrones on Thursday. “It’s just overwhelming.”
Bradley, who was also visiting South America for the first time, agreed, noting that the show’s “global reach” is incredible.
“I knew the show was very popular here, and to experience it first-hand is so exciting, especially since we shoot the show in Europe, which feels kind of close to home for us,” he said. “It’s amazing to be here with people who watch the show and are as invested in it and passionate about it as people back at home.”
Also on Thursday, Williams and Bradley sat down for a Facebook live interview with HBO Brasil, which resulted in some great insights into how they view their characters, the show’s evolution and more.
One of the viewer-submitted questions asked Williams how she would like Arya to be remembered; she noted that there’s been “an increase in strong, rebellious female characters in television,” and to be remembered as one of the originals “would be pretty cool.”
Bradley noted that the show has “shrunk the world” in the sense that it’s become a “global community of fandom,” and that “everyone [on the show] does their job to the highest possible standard.”
Most interesting was Williams’ answer when asked what has been the most exciting moment for Arya in the series so far and she replied, “Some of the most exciting are coming in Season 8, so I can’t talk much about them.” Later in the interview, when asked if “we’re going to see more epic scenes” from Arya, she replied, “We really, really are.”
Williams also touched on lessons about female empowerment she’s learned through portraying Arya, and Bradley discussed Sam’s transition from a secondary character to a main one. The entire video is great and only about 15 minutes long, so I highly recommend taking some time to watch it in its entirety:
On Friday, Benioff, Weiss, Williams and Bradley were the guests of honor at the series’ panel, where they talked about everything from casting to personal stories and favorite memories from the last eight years.
#GoT creators David Benioff and Dan Weiss welcome @Maisie_Williams and @johnbradleywest to the stage. #GOTXP pic.twitter.com/QGq0euPt8e
— Game Of Thrones (@GameOfThrones) December 6, 2018
Making Game of Thrones again followed the action, posting some of the most interesting tidbits from the panel discussion. Among them was Benioff and Weiss remembering the casting process and who was easiest — Mark Addy as Robert Baratheon, the “only time it was that easy,” according to Benioff — and most difficult — Williams herself as Arya, believe it or not — to cast. Arya was their most difficult challenge, until “one day we were scouting in Morocco, and we saw the little thumbnail picture of Maisie Williams on our laptop. And even on a picture that small, there was just something about her that seemed like Arya,” Benioff said.
Williams and Bradley also reflected on how they identify with their on-screen characters. Williams said that she wished she was “more like Arya than I actually am,” but Bradley relates strongly to Samwell because they’ve both “grown together.”
“He’s not always the first person to see worth in himself,” Bradley said, telling Benioff and Weiss, that while Gilly has instilled that confidence in his character, “You guys did that that for me.”
Naturally, the four were tight-lipped about Season 8 details, but Benioff and Weiss shared the odd sensation they felt at the end of their journey — and the fact that they took a picture on their final day of shooting around “destruction and ruin.”
“It was a major part of our lives for a very long time,” Benioff said. Weiss agreed, noting that “It was a strange and wonderful feeling,” adding that the crew “was family to us.”
Holy Moly! Don’t know if Bradley realized it, but he gave away that Sam survives to the end!
He said it’ll be hard not going back to check on the character… right at end of interview. If the character died, he’d not have said it quite like that!
Oh, hodor!
Later in the interview, when asked if “we’re going to see more epic scenes” from Arya, she [Maisie Williams] replied, “We really, really are.”
————
ASNAWP !!!!!!
And it’s about f*cking time!
LOL! Oh please, as key as he might be, he’s not a “main one”.
He was far more relevant when he was with the NW, rather than the snoozefest he has become since he left with Gilly.
Sam – I always thought that would be the case. Probably Arya also 🙂
Oh my gawd Maisie is so incredibly grown up and articulate. And loved listening to Brad. Everytime I see these interviews I get so much more hyped. April cannot come fast enough for me!
BTW I did notice at one point there is a jump in the film, as if it were edited? Perhaps an inadvertent spoiler? Or just a technical hiccup..?
ash,
I noticed that also! I reckon Maise let a BIG ONE (spoiler that is) off and the video had to be edited! Hehe – just my take on it 🙂
Ten Bears,
I watched the panel (including annoying interruptions by the Brazilian streamer) and it was good. As SAmantha says, there were no big spoilers. Also, someone interviewed Maisie and John before it. Very upbeat. And Vanity Fair GoT regular writer Joanna Robinson (who was also a frequent host and moderator at Con of Thrones events) just wrote an article on GoT secrets and revelations she derived from reading the Season 7 scripts. The last one is below. The bolded parts are actual quotes from the scripts.
*****************************************************************************
The Sansa Question—What Did She Know and When Did She Know It?:
Both Sansa haters and lovers alike had some difficulty puzzling out the Stark sister dynamics in Season 7. Arya and Sansa were at each other’s throats; the elder sister was inexcusably rude to her vassal Brienne; and things were generally a mess at Winterfell, until they weren’t. Did Sansa know all along that Littlefinger was trying to manipulate her into fighting with her sister, or was she, for a time, duped by the late Petyr Baelish?
The script reveals it is the latter. Sansa gets ticked off watching her sister and Brienne spar in the courtyard, and worries Brienne might be an ally for her sister should Arya turn on Sansa. “Sansa is not happy about it” the script reads. Furthermore: “This disturbs Sansa; the woman she thought was her dedicated protector is actually a time share.” That’s why Sansa abruptly, and unkindly, sends Brienne away.
The tensions between Arya and Sansa are also very real (until they’re not). When Arya accuses Sansa of trying to placate the Northern lords to ensure they are on her side, the script explains: “Arya is right. She knows it. We know it. Sansa knows it.” Later, Sansa gets genuinely enraged by her sister’s constant accusations: “Now she grows angry, and when Sansa gets angry a steeliness enters her tone.” None of these fights are for Baelish’s benefit.
So when, exactly, did Sansa catch on? She may have had some private suspicions all along, but Baelish doesn’t make his big mistake until the season finale, when he tells Sansa that Arya wants to be the lady of Winterfell. Sansa knows very well her sister never wanted any such thing. The script outlines Sansa’s moment of dawning realization: “Littlefinger spreads his hands. Well? There it is. Sansa nods. There it is.” And that little moment marked the beginning of the end of Littlefinger’s climb.
Oh, that evil Sansa.
Being curt with poor old Brienne.
Feeling angry over being unfairly accused of betraying her family and getting her dad killed.
Trying to keep her House’s bannermen onside while the King is absent for weeks without contact.
And rumbling Littlefinger’s attempts to manipulate her before they brought any harm on her family.
Man, she’s just awful, isn’t she?
Stark Raven’ Rad,
Thank you for those insights! I just wish the sisters’ mental and emotional states had been made clearer somehow.
And I still think that Arya’s accusation that Sansa’s preoccupation with her “beloved Joffrey” got their father killed – based solely on the six year old letter Sansa was forced to write – and Sansa’s freakout that everyone would turn on her if the letter were disclosed, made zero sense.
In this instance, a plot point (I think in the books) left out of the show would’ve made Arya’s accusation justifiable: that Sansa had ratted out Ned’s plans to Cersei, enabling Cersei to outmaneuver Ned and prevent both girls from being far away from KL when the sh*t hit the fan.
If LF had made sure Arya discovered that little books-only factoid in S7, Arya blaming Sansa for Ned’s death would’ve made sense. But everybody pretty much already knew, or would readily accept, that the stupid letter was like a POW or hostage video: made under duress, reading a script written by the captor. (Robb and Cat immediately knew the handwriting may have been Sansa’s but the words were Cersei’s.)
I am glad though that there are finally “official” explanations for Sansa’s weird expression when she saw Arya sparring with Brienne, and Sansa’s decision to send away Brienne.
I got fooled. I thought the look on Sansa’s face when she saw Arya sparring was to convey “Holy sh*t! My little sister is f*cking lethal! That “list” was no joke!”
As for sending Brienne and Pod off to KL, I couldn’t make sense of that. I remember reading dozens of possible interpretations at the time.
Oh well. I wish that (any) Arya-Sansa squabble had been resolved quickly, and that most of the S7 Sansa-Arya story was like their lovely reconciliation scene on the battlements at the end of S7e7. [I will always have a tough time reconciling Ned instilling in Arya that “Sansa is your sister” and “we must look out for one another”, with Arya confronting Sansa at knifepoint and musing about peeling off Sansa’s face. Arya would never dishonor her father that way, even if she was just trying to unnerve Sansa.]
Ten Bears,
Hells yeah!! ASNAWP kills White Walkers confirmed!
Alba,
No, he didn’t say, that he became a main character, the interviewer laid the word in his mouth: “a leading character [of a storyline]”.
I liked to listen to John Bradley, he spoke fine, very eloquent :o)
Enharmony1625,
Right! No sweeping floors or selling shellfish for the Wolf Girl in S8.
cos alpha,
John Bradley is an eloquent, thoughtful speaker.
I’m glad he mentioned the greyscale surgery scene as demonstrating Samwell’s brand of bravery. I thought it contained his most heroic lines: when he wheeled the cart into Jorah’s room after Maester Ebrose had effectively told Jorah he had a day to kill himself.
Jorah: “What are you doing?”
Sam: “You’re Jorah Mormont, the only son of Jeor Mormont. My name is Samwell Tarly, Sworn Brother of the Night’s Watch, training to serve as maester at Castle Black. I knew your father. I was with him when he died. You’re not dying today, Ser Jorah.”
Ten Bears,
Sansa-Arya’s conflict is important part of their story and it couldn’t be ignored, as GRRM said. But it is his fault that he never told Benioff and Weiss to include part where Sansa gave important informations to Cersei in S1/Book 1. So D&D had to use what they had. The latter.
But to cut Arya-Sansa conflict would be like cutting Daenerys and Jon’s relationship. It had to happen.
Poor Brienne. She gets no respect. She is used to show the adulthood of the Stark children and their sibling misunderstandings.
When we met Brienne she already a young adult and an accomplished fighter joining Renly’s kingsguard. The Stark girls were children.
Now Sansa speaks to Brienne (who is also a highborn lady) as if she is Sansa’s scullery maid. Brienne could not gather enough self-possession to refuse to fight Arya. Arya basically orders her to do so. Both girls seem to consider Brienne akin to their personal peon. Apparently, Brienne promised Cat to be her kids’ obedient servant for the rest of her life.
Is this the best they could have written for such a brave and good person as Brienne? Perhaps they could have Sansa and Arya boss around some-one else? I suppose it gave the Brienne-actor a few extra scenes. It just made me feel bad for Brienne.
And it’s funny that GRRM wrote 1×08 so he could’ve put Sansa’s betrayal, but he just forgot or even didn’t care.
Did anyone pickup when John Bradley said he misses getting to work with Kit?
He said something like he hasn’t been able to work with Kit since the early seasons. He didn’t say anything about getting to work with Kit in season 8. He almost made it sound to me like he wouldn’t get to work with him again. Did anyone pickup on that? It would be hard for me to believe that they wouldn’t connect again in season 8. I would think Sam would be returning to assist with the WW’s and give his needed guidance, and eventually use his family’s sword. I’m hoping he was just trying not to spoil anything????
Yes, I noticed and I share Your hopes.
From the way he said it, it sounded to me that he does not work with Jon in S8.
In Season 8, I thought Sam would be with Bran, Gilly, Incest baby Sam and other the non-combatants mostly. Jon will be with the new missus. That does not mean Sam does not get to use his sword. This sub-group may be attacked by a stray pocket of the dead/WW. Sam can be a hero in his own story.
Mango,
Wow, I really didn’t consider Sam not coming back to join Jon again. I hope that’s not the case. Since Jon sent Sam to the Citidel to become the new Maester for the Night’s Watch, I just thought they would reconnect at some point. In some ways it makes sense since Jon’s watch is over. I just thought they would all gather at Winterfell. I think the love boat is headed there. I’m not sure if Sam is headed to Castle Black with Gilly and little Sam, but Winterfell is usually on the way. John Bradley really did make it sound like he didn’t shoot with Kit again.
Tron79,
yes, I thought Sam was last seen at Winterfell chatting to Bran about Rhaeger and Lyanna. And Jon’s love boat (ha!) is headed there. They should cross paths so it is odd. Maybe it is a nod across the room that does not require filming together.
Unless Jon does not make it to WF. Or Sam dies before he gets there.
Tron79,
Sam is at WF and Jon is coming there. There is no way they won’t have scenes together. Maybe not as much as in the earlier seasons. It seens Sam’s main partner will be Bran in S8.
Or Sam and the non-combatants flee WF when they hear that the Wall is down. Bran will know before Jon and they may make some non-combatants go south. Before Jon arrives.
It wasn’t the first time that Sansa sent Brienne away. She sent Brienne on a fool’s errand to the Riverlands when Brienne asked her why she lied to Jon. Interesting that Sansa sees Brienne as a protector, but also a threat just because Brienne knows her secrets.
To me, Sansa’s glare down at Arya in the courtyard was well acted because it didn’t look like the surprise and pride of a loving sister. It looked like lasers.
Sansa doesn’t like anyone who knows her secrets. Arya was a witness to the events at the Inn at the Crossroads. She was present in King’s Landing and at Ned’s execution. Sansa got upset when Bran told her he knew what Ramsay did to her…which means he knows everything else, too. Hmm, I wonder what else Bran knows about her secret motivations.
Is this what it took for her to catch on? My god, after everything that Littlefinger did to her? So what if Littlefinger hadn’t said that? You mean to tell me that Sansa would have carried right on lying to her siblings?
Mango,
Good point. It’s possible Bran could leave with Sam. That would also avoid a Jaime/Bran reunion right away. But I would hope to see Jaime and Bran together at some point.
I will have to think as mau said that Jon and Sam have to meet up at Winterfell at least briefly and then Sam and Bran may go on their own path somewhere. I get the feeling that Sam didn’t get to shoot in the big battles of S8 from John Bradley’s sadness of not being able to participate in big battles like the BOTB. He didn’t even have a little bit of a glint in his eye to make me think he got to be in a big battle this season. But perhaps, he’s just not letting on anything about S8. Anyway, I found it a pretty revealing interview as those interviews go. As others have said, they cut something from Maisie’s comments. HBO may have thought she gave a bit too much info. I am excited to see ASNAWP scenes. I’m just getting hyped in general. I hope they drop a live action promo soon with actors and real footage. I loved the part of the interview when John Bradley talked about being sad that he wouldn’t be able to go back and visit Sam again to see how Sam’s been doing. It really let me into how he thinks of acting, and how he really lives his character and immerses himself in the world of the character. It was like he got to go back and talk with Sam and catch up, and he won’t be able to go to the pub with his old friend Sam again.
Mango,
I recall Brienne:
(a) Laying her sword at Cat’s feet and taking an oath to be her sworn shield;
(b) Making a sacred vow to bring her daughters home. (She told that to Hot Pie, and was in the middle of telling Arya in S4e10 when Arya cut her off: “I don’t care what you swore!” 👸🏻😃)
(c) In S6e2, laying her sword at Sansa’s feet and taking an oath to be her sworn shield.
I don’t recall Brienne ever promising Cat to “serve both her daughters.”
But then again, who’s gonna contradict ASNAWP? And if they had to fudge the oaths a little bit to give us that Arya-Brienne sparring match (and Arya’s dagger twirl and dagger flip) in S7e4, I can live with that.
PS I am NOT a Sansaphobe. However, expecting Brienne to cover for Sansa’s white lies (e.g., about how she learned Blackfish had retaken Riverrun), and abruptly sending Brienne away to KL to prevent her from interceding in the sisters’ feud, came perilously close to violating Sansa’s end of the “sworn shield” oath, i.e., promising “not to ask you to do anything that will bring you dishonor”, or something like that.
What I can’t figure out is that the showrunners kept saying they love Sophie and her character, and she’d become a “savvy politician.” Why then would they portray her in a less than positive light in S7? And after telling Jon in S6e10 that “only a fool would trust Littlefinger”…. she trusts LF in S7 and prepares to whack her sister?
F*ck it. I’ll just rewatch the beautiful battlements reconciliation scene at the end of S7e7 over and over and forget the muddle that preceded it.
As the kids say, Radical!
And as the White Walkers say, Icicle!
Ten Bears,
One of Brienne’s pledges to Sansa was to “keep your counsel”, which basically means to act as her confidante, guard her secrets and not divulge any private conversations.
So Brienne has effectively sworn to cover for Sansa’s white lies already.
And I don’t think sending Brienne to act as her proxy at a meeting she cannot personally attend, regardless of her motives for doing so, could possibly be construed as bringing dishonour on Brienne.
Brienne swearing herself to Sansa is one of the really weird things to occur on GOT. Especially the timing of when this occurred in the series.
Brienne and Sansa were in Kings Landing together but Brienne did not rush over to swear herself to Sansa. She respected/loved/had sworn to Cat then but she did not even speak to Sansa in KL. Brienne told Jaime that she knew Sansa was not safe there but still did not swear to Sansa to protect her. Brienne hangs out in KL and goes to the wedding, ignores Sansa as far as I could tell. Sansa takes off with Littlefinger – even then Brienne does not go in pursuit of Sansa. It is Jaime that arranges Brienne’s dispatch. (In the show, I guess Jaime knows Brienne has to leave town when he sees Cersei chatting her up.)
Outside WF with Ramsey hunting her, Sansa had no options except Brienne and Theon (who has nothing either) when Brienne falls to Sansa’s feet. In turn, Sansa very kindly promises to feed Brienne. Why swear to Sansa then? Could Sansa refuse help?
Bizarrely, in the swearing exchange, Sansa promised to give Brienne space at her table and so on. At that time Sansa was homeless as far as I could tell. And Brienne was more likely going to have to feed Sansa. Plus Brienne has Tarth and Sansa had nothing.
I think if there was to be swearing and serving, it should have been Sansa swearing to serve Brienne. If I saved anyone’s life, they are serving me, not the other way around,
Ten Bears,
Just because they like the charCter does not mean the character would always be portrayed in a positive light.
That script makes it clear that D&D were trying to portray Sansa as a sneaky or conniving game player that hadn’t fully kicked in all her chips to the Stark cause. But, like the cowards they continually show themselves to be when it comes to Sansa & her fans, they kept hedging their bets. That has always made it hard for me to like her character.
I wish they had just made her full on ruthless & conniving ala Cersei & Littlefinger. Scheming for power in WF. Delaying the Vale’s support until she saw Jon go down in the mosh pit. Not trusting the all knowing Bran who knows her secrets. Fearful of Arya because she’s more loyal to the family cause. Using LF to get what she wants until she realizes it’s a dead end & then “cashing him in”. Those things would have made her such a badass rather than this wishy washy shit they’ve been doing with her.
At least now, she seems fully invested in the overall Stark cause more than just her own; that is until D&D pull the shit again in season 8 because of Jon and Dany… I really have no idea what Sansa’s endgame is. I guess D&D deserve credit for keeping that a mystery. But I truly believe they’ve done her character a disservice. Hopefully they can stick the landing…
Mango,
In S5E1 (just got there on my rewatch) Brienne says to Pod that she wants a good lord to serve, I think that’s why she swore herself to Sansa at first opportunity.
mau,
GRRM writes his episodes based on D&D’s plot outlines. D&D said they took it out because they thought it didn’t fit. That’s not on GRRM.
You have the order reversed. Sansa sent Brienne to the Riverlands to try to recruit the Blackfish, and then Brienne asked her about why she lied about where she got the information.
Brienne needs to stop swearing oaths and do her own thing. She doesn’t need to be anyone’s lapdog.
Brienne did meet Sansa at the Inn where she was eating with Littlefinger, remember? That’s where Sansa refused her help… and wound up sorely regretting it. This cautious Brienne you describe is a contrast to the Brienne at the inn who blurted out an appeal to Sansa. Maybe she sensed something… I don’t know why, because it seemed as if Sansa was headed back to Winterfell, or in that general direction. Maybe she knew the Bolton’s had taken it over? Oh wait, maybe Pod told her something about Littlefinger?
Yep. I think you’re right.
Mango,
Here’s the dialogue from S7e4:
(Brienne practicing with Pod)
Brienne: “Don’t lunge….Don’t go where your enemy leads you….Up… And don’t…”
(Arya enters courtyard)
Arya: “…Don’t fight someone like her in the first place.”
Brienne: “Nice sword. Very nice dagger.”
(Arya approaches, does nifty dagger twirl; scene shifts to Sansa and LF)
Sansa: “If they haven’t contributed the right amount of grain to the stores, then I’m afraid they’ll have to make due with what they’ve brought. We can’t…”
(Sansa sees Arya with Brienne below)
Arya: “It’s been a while since I trained.”
Brienne: “I can go and find the master of arms for you, my lady.”
Arya: “He didn’t beat the Hound. You did. I want to train with you. You swore to serve both my mother’s daughters, didn’t you?”
Brienne: “Move aside, Podrick.”
(Arya unsheathes Needle)
Brienne: “You can’t use that, my lady. It’s too small.”
Arya: “I won’t cut you. Don’t worry.” 😃
Brienne: “I’ll try not to.”
(They spar; Arya loses Needle, but does hand-to-hand dagger flip)
Brienne: “Who taught you how to do that?”
Arya: “No one.” 😝
—————
Does anyone remember Brienne swearing to serve both of Cat’s daughters?
In my mind at least Sam is one of the most likely characters to survive the series so nothing earth shattering there. In the books I’m guessing either him or Bran will be the last POV narrating what happens with Westeros once the dust settles.
Unfortunately Brienne is one of life’s followers, she is bad ass and honorable, but not confident enough to lead anyone. Therefore she swore her loyalty to people she though would make the world a better place.. and a child of Ned Stark isn’t too bad of a choice.
We’ll see by the end if it was a good choice or not.
Sacred Lime,
I think this is going to be Brienne’s ultimate endgame, not serving the Starks, not stuck as a glorified babysitter in the KG, but realising her own worth and seeing she doesn’t need to spend her life walking ten steps behind someone who doesn’t even appreciate her.
I think a lot of Brienne’s desire to serve stems from her insecurity, something she is already showing signs of overcoming (thanking Pod for calling her a lady) and she is no longer devoted to oaths as she once was (fuck loyalty), and I expect some pretty badass heroics from her in Season 8 to boost her reputation.
I need this for her. If Pod and Jaime; the only two people who truly care for her, die, she needs to have some victory. If these two die, Brienne would be left with no one. She may have a friendship with the Hound or Arya, but whatever relationship she forms with them cannot live up to the bond she has made with Jaime and Pod over the seasons.
Moving on and seeing she deserves better than she is giving herself would be just the thing to make her ending and her arc satisfying, even if she ahs still suffered great losses.
Sean C.,
Where he said that?
I didn’t necessarily interpret John’s quote to mean that Sam survives (can’t check on him if he’s dead), though of course I certainly hope he does…he and many others are main characters to me. It’s too sad to imagine Jon & Sam not having any scenes together in the final season! ;x;
Couldn’t tell whether there was a glitch, or Maisie said something she shouldn’t have. x3
Not being much of a Sansa fan, I had pretty much already figured everything revealed in that script. Wasn’t too shocked to see that she had indeed not been “outwitting” LF until a last-minute chat with Bran because she finally became a wee bit suspicious–a deleted scene that definitely shouldn’t have been deleted. Although it’s hard to imagine why it wouldn’t have taken place considerably earlier with Bran initiating. “Chaos is a ladder” and all. The Winterfell plot was messy last season.
Mango,
They are on a boat. Where is Enron?……(I don’t reallly think this would happen but its the first thing I thought of when I read that)
Pigeon,
Exactly!
Although she is brave and courageous, she seems to lack a mind of her own and any need for self-direction. In a story of grey characters, she comes off as the “good, noble admirable, woman” character but as also servile as they come. Think about Oleanna, Osha, Margery, Miranda, Cersei, Cat, Ygritte. In this GOT story, she is the most “manageable” of the women. What is the story telling us about” good women”?
What is a highborn girl to do when she doesn’t want to be a lady? Fighting is what Brienne is good at, and trained at. She doesn’t seem to want to join an army, only thing left for her is to be a knight. She barely knew Catelyn yet pledged her sword before Renly had turned to bones in his grave. Then she quickly set about pledging herself to Sansa, and trying to pledge to Arya, but Arya refused. She has to have someone to serve, or else who is she?
Cat talked to her about the bloody business of having children and a family…which doesn’t seem like such a bad thing if she gets to choose her mate, and compared to serving this person and that. They were discussing what it means to be a courageous woman in that society. I think she’ll end up as queensguard or kingsguard to whoever takes the ironthrone, that’s if she survives.
Ten Bears,
Nope! No-one asked Brienne to swear to both Cat’s daughters. In fact, no-one asked Brienne to swear to anyone – not even to Sansa.
When Brienne saw Arya with Sandor she made no attempt to swear to Arya either.
Some-one can clarify this but I think both Jaime and Brienne promised to return the daughters to Cat – or at least see them to safety. If Brienne thinks that means swearing to Sansa, I am not sure why? Are we to expect Jaime to swear to Sansa?
Jaime sent Brienne to find Sansa and help her. Nothing was said about swearing to Sansa or Arya. It was very funny in S6 when Brienne told Jaime in the tent that honour required her to fight him to help the Sansa’s kin keep their castle. She said this to Jaime who had sent her to find Sansa, lol! He should have said what? did you swear to them? who told you to do that dumb shit?
Schoolbook,
Yes, knights serve.
My issue is not only that she swore but when. She swore at the precisely the time that she had the upper hand. Exactly when Sansa had to go with her. It was tactically unnecessary. When they met at the Inn, swearing then may have been a way to get Sansa to hire her and thus she stays with Sansa.
Brienne was in KL and had a vast range of “goodish” persons to swear herself to. Firstly, she could swear to Jaime as Cersei assumed. Those two are close and it is Jaime that gave Brienne her knight’s quest. But we also had Renly’s widow available. We had Oleanna etc. (Of course, they are now dead! so just as well she did not!) How would she know Sansa was good?
Other people serve without this slavish behavior. Davos serves Jon. Bronn serves Jaime. etc.
Mango,
I think going up against abuse from all corners of society rules in order to be a knight out ‘having no mind of her own’. I do think her low self-esteem has led her to believe the best she can do is spend her life serving others, even if they don’t deserve her. If Brienne were to remain in Sansa’s service of in the KG she’s basically where she started of.
My main desire is for her to not be stuck serving the Stark/in the Kingsguard, because then she is just one of many people protecting a rich lord/lady. I want her to have the chance to truly do some good and get the recognition she deserves, as well as having shown she has grown since the start of the show. The ‘fuck loyalty’ scene and her thanking Pod for calling her a lady does hint towards something like that, and that her need to serve is lessening.
If Brienne does continue to serve, I want her to serve the people who actually need her, like the smallfolk.
Shelle,
As Stark Raven’ Rad pointed out above (12/9/18, 2:41 pm), according to the script:
So when, exactly, did Sansa catch on? She may have had some private suspicions all along, but Baelish doesn’t make his big mistake until the season finale, when he tells Sansa that Arya wants to be the lady of Winterfell. Sansa knows very well her sister never wanted any such thing. The script outlines Sansa’s moment of dawning realization: “Littlefinger spreads his hands. Well? There it is. Sansa nods. There it is.” And that little moment marked the beginning of the end of Littlefinger’s climb.
…………………….
It would’ve been nice if there had been some clue – even a subtle change in expression, or a closeup on Sansa’s face – that Sansa had this “moment of dawning realization.” Instead, her mental and emotional states were inscrutable. I didn’t feel any “well, there it is” epiphany.
Was the director derelict in his responsibility to convey that script direction? Is there a cinematic technique to convey wordlessly a character’s “moment of dawning realization”?
Perhaps it requires an actress with, say, very expressive eyebrows. 👸🏻
Anon,
Well, if Jaime survives she will be his wife.
If Jaime becomes king, Brienne will be queen.
If none of these things happens, Brienne is the Evenstar and will rule Tarth.
Of course, she is like Jaime in not wanting to rule may prefer the guard. I would be so disappointed to see her spend her life serving Sansa or Arya. She is better than that!!!!
Ten Bears,
Sophie gave an interview a while ago where she expressed the view, if I recall correctly, that Sansa has already figured it all out before that scene, and that she was playing it as Sansa pretending to be duped.
If so, another instance of people involved in a scene having very different ideas about what was happening in it.
whateverdgaf,
I fully agree.
They may be saving this for S8 but I think she needed to get there as a person in S7.
I do not think this situation will happen – but have you wondered what Brienne would do if Sansa ordered her to kill Jaime?
Mango,
I have imagined this scene many times!
Sometimes, Brienne goes into a passionate speech about how Jaime saved her life, how she owes him, how he is changed man.
Other times Brienne admits to loving him and challenges Sansa to order Brienne to kill the one man she loves and loves her.
But usually Brienne is just cold and quiet and unyielding as Sansa rants and raves, and when Sansa accuses Brienne of disloyalty and dismisses Brienne from her service, Brienne just goes ‘That’s unfortunate’ and walks away, which is my favourite scenario.
Sacred Lime,
Why should Brienne think Ned Stark’s children want to make the world a better place? Ned Stark? Did he make any effort to make the world a better place? Ned Stark has been a source of war and death in this story. Mainly because of misjudgements, mistakes, misunderstandings, mistimed actions.
Cat she admired and Cat saved her life. So this was her motivation to save Sansa and Arya.
whateverdgaf,
I love it!!!!!
Good topic! For me there is no way Brienne would execute Jamie even if it comes to light he pushed Bran from the window (as I expect to happen). Whilst she is sworn to protect the Stark girls she is not an executioner and I’m sure would plead for mercy on his part given the journey he has been on.
Sansa still is a Stark, and “He/She who passes the sentence should swing the sword”. The exception was LittleFinger, but Sansa still kept the sword in the family and Arya did it. I doubt she would have Brienne carry it out. I do think that we may see Jaime’s foreshadowing from season 5 when Jaime is talking to Bronn in Dorne. He says if he has to die, it would be, “in the arms of the woman he loved”. I think that is very likely to be Brienne after Jaime does something very stupid, but very heroic. Perhaps he even saves Bran.
We know Sam is at Winterfell and that Jon will return their (with Dany) in episode 1 so it’s a given they will work together at least for a few scenes. Does Jon even know Sam is there? Sam will surely be the one to tell Jon he is the heir to the throne too.
Tron79,
I am fine with Jaime dying in Brienne’s arms – when he is 90 years old and they are surrounded by their 7 large, grown kids that rule the world.
Brienne is alleged to be a descendant of Sir Duncan the Tall, an upstart wannabe knight who would go on to become the Captain of the Kingsguard. I don’t see any reason why Brienne can’t aspire to the same goal as her great ancestor. Do we criticize Barristan or Arthur Dayne for wanting to serve? So what’s wrong with Brienne wanting to serve? That’s always been her dream.
If Brienne survives (no way both she & Jamie survive), I’m perfectly happy with her becoming the next Captain of the Kingsguard and writing in the White Book about how her true love, the Kingslayer, redeemed himself. Hell maybe they can even do the do or at least share a kiss & express their feelings for each other before his demise.
I was thinking that Jorah would be a strong candidate for KG Captaincy if he survives, but I think he’d be better off as the next Lord Commander of the NW if it still exists and is needed by show’s end. I definitely think Brienne would be more deserving of the two though.
Aegon the IceDragon,
I do criticize Selmy and Dayne. They stood by as Aerys committed atrocity after atrocity and I don’t want Brienne to end up in the same position.
She began her story in the Kinsguard, believing all oaths to be sacred and unbreakable. I don’t want it to end that way as well, especially as 1. her development indicates she is growing away from all that (‘fuck loyalty’) 2. The KG is a chaste organisation and for Brienne, a woman whose appearance and behaviour has rendered her sexless in the eyes of many and joining the KG would only confirm that and 3, because I want Brienne to do some good and through joining the KG she jut because one of many guards protecting the most protected person in the realm, and is just as likely (if not more likely) to be a force for evil than good.
Aegon the IceDragon,
I very much do judge Selmy and Dayne. Through keeping their oaths in the KG they enable atrocity after atrocity. They are nothing worth emulating and I don’t want Brienne to follow in their footsteps, especially when she began her story in a KG and seeing the world in black and white. Her story since then has been leading away from that (‘fuck loyalty.) As far as I’m concerned, Brienne as an individual has great potential to be a force for good and the KG only ruins that. Really a KG member is more likely to either end up a glorified babysitter and wasting her talents (I mean, most likely ruler is Dany and Jon at this point and neither really need her), or even a force for evil than anything useful to the realm.
I’d only be happy with Brienne joining the KG if she does so because she knows someone needs to be on hard to act as Kingslayer if the ruler gets out of hand.
Mango,
I actually though that moment came when she was talking to LF about how Arya found her letter, I interpreted that last moment when she is looking at the window as a “I gotcha bitch” moment.
EXACTLY! *lol*
I can picture the expression that would’ve conveyed a realization there, but instead I remember sharing exasperation with my fellow viewers at how infuriatingly gullible she was. Interesting if Sophie really believed that Sansa was playing Baelish that entire time; didn’t come off that way to me, although tbh if I had to play her, I’d probably want to try and make her into more of a bad@$$ too. xD (I’d be totally envious of Maisie.)
^ Agree.
^ Also agree!
I always thought that Arya and Sam would be two of the survivor’s and now I’me even more convinced.
That would really be something wouldn’t it! But I will also be fine for Jaime to do something amazing and truly become Sir Jaime and save the others. His charge at the dragon through the flames may be my favorite scene of the whole series. His arc is also one of the most interesting ones to me. Unfortunately, it would have been a little better if the Lannister armor had an oxygen tank. I did have trouble buying that he survived after sinking (due to plot armor as another article talked about). But I would be very happy to see him end up with Brienne somehow.
whateverdgaf,
Well said on explaining why Brienne ending up as a kings guard is such as painful disappointing fate for this character. I would prefer if they gave her a knight’s death fighting and dying alongside a knight that loves her.
Circling her back to where she started is awful. Further, she already had a man she cared for (but who did not love her) already die in her arms. How much grief and failure can poor Brienne have, without any progression?
If she survives and Jaime does not, I hope she returns to Tarth where she can serve the people of this island. She will be with her father that loves her. In this world she has Pod, Jaime and her father. She will understand her leadership role as service to Tarth.
That said, I wonder in the series at this point, why is she still around? Her relationship with and impact on Jaime has been built from S2. It is the great romance of GOT. It is also an original romance – an off kilter B&B that GRRM likes to explore. She is in the story for the endgame so I hope her “romance” sees a meaningful end. (Yes, Jon and Daenerys is an important romance as well, but so far this is a short routine romance over 4 episodes and a hook-up scene).
It certainly seems that GOT is heading to a Hollywood blockbuster trash ending. The tritest ending possible, one that a 12 child could have made up – as most trash blockbusters usually have. So Jon & Daenerys (and perhaps Sansa) end up as the leaders. Poor non-pretty, unconventional, brave Brienne ends up as their servant. It is amazing the number of people want this beaten path. For a series that started out as unconventional, GOT would have the most conventional ending possible.
Tron79,
Oxygen tanks! Ha!
MaxFowler,
Just to acknowledge. I have no idea what Sansa was up to. Or why Brienne was sent away.
Sophie’s and Emilia’s acting can be so bad sometimes, it is often hard to judge what they are supposed to be communicating.
My main conclusion from the Sansa/LF/Arya/Bran scenes in WF is that they blame LF for the fight between the Starks and Lannisters.
If there had been an obvious moment of realisation then the later scene where she surprises Littlefinger with the charges against him wouldn’t have had the same impact.
It’s the same reason they apparently removed the scene where Sansa approached Bran for information on Littlefinger. And they also included the scene where Sansa stands on the battlements, appearing to have the weight of the world on her shoulders, mulling over her next move.
None of this would carry any drama if they’d already conveyed to the viewer that she’d rumbled Littlefinger. We’re supposed to be in the dark over exactly what she’s concluded.
That’s why people over-analysing these scripts and in some cases going so far as to insult the actors (not accusing you of that) over their supposed inability to comprehend them is such a waste of time.
What’s written in these scripts is clearly not as nuanced and complete as what was actually produced for the screen. They don’t include any of the personalised direction the actors will have received from the producers and directors. They don’t reflect any changes and subtleties added during the production and editing process
I mean, do people really believe that this script is all that the actors, directors and other production staff had to go on?
Obviously not since, for example, the scene that I mentioned above where Sansa consults with Bran apparently doesn’t appear in these scripts, yet Isaac Hempstead-Wright claims that they filmed it.
Honestly, the dialogue, the notes and what actually ended up on-screen are like they were created by somebody with multiple personality disorder, such is their disparity in tone and detail.
I think what was ultimately portrayed on screen is a more trustworthy depiction of the characters and their actions than these flimsy and inconsistent scripts.
At the end of season 6, Sansa says “only a fool would trust Littlefinger”. However, by the beginning of season 7, Sansa put Littlefinger in a position to take advantage of her again because she kept him close and kept his council. Obviously, she needed to be diplomatic with him since he helped her win back Winterfell, but she had no reason to keep him so close to her inner circle the way she did. That was just dumb.
In other words, the silly WF plot in season 7 never should’ve happened in the first place.
MaxFowler,
You know, Sansa & LF declaring that Brienne is sworn to both does not make it true.
This tells us a lot about how badly D&D are struggling for coherence in the shady WF plot.
S8 will be a mess…I expect garbage incoming. But hope for the best.
Mr Derp,
Absolutely.
To be fair to Sansa she isn’t the King, so it’s not up to her at the beginning of the season whether Littlefinger lives or dies. And they were doing a reasonable job at the start of Season 7 of portraying both Jon and Sansa only begrudgingly tolerating Littlefinger, as you suggest they should have been, because they needed the Knights of the Vale.
It was only once an angry little wildcard entered the stage talking of cutting off heads and carving off faces that Sansa resorted to seeking Littlefinger’s counsel.
I think it could have worked had they made it crystal clear that Sansa was only tolerating Littlefinger because she was worried that Arya’s headstrong outlook could break up the fragile alliance that Jon had tasked her with maintaining.
And if her epiphany had been based not on the simple fact that Littlefinger was trying to manipulate her, which she should obviously already be aware of, but on what he was trying to convince her to do (i.e. usurp Jon, kill Arya, betray her family, etc).
And if there had been some acknowledgement that Arya was behaving unreasonably and needed to re-acclimatise to a world where poisoning and murdering people is what the bad guys do.
Sadly, they revived the defunct narrative that Sansa sought power and would consider usurping Jon, which had clearly run its natural course by the finale of Season 6. And this despite inserting constant references to Sansa missing Jon, wishing he would come home, and her acknowledging Bran’s superior claim to Winterfell. Talk about mixed messages.
And then by the end of the season they swept it all under the carpet in one of the most ham-fisted scenes ever featured on the show, in my opinion – the one with Sansa and Arya spouting atrocious dialogue on the battlements.
whateverdgaf,
I think the point the poster was making was that we don’t criticize either of them for wanting to become KG. . And Brienne seems to want that for herself as well and should she finally decide it’s not for her to follow blindly the orders of the king or queen, but judge and make her own reasonable decisions when the king/queen cannot be trusted to do the same, she will become Jaime when confronted with Dany’s father. And that’s not exactly a bad place to be as she learnt to have a different appreciation of the Kingslayer.
Mind you I think the ending you want for her is pretty neat too.
Mango,
“Sophie’s and Emilia’s acting can be so bad sometimes, it is often hard to judge what they are supposed to be communicating.”
………………
Here’s how it’s done.
From S5e3, at 2:20 – 3:00 of this clip:
TormundsWoman,
Exactly. I said nothing about her being some blind, dumb robot that just follows the King or Queen’s orders. Plus Rhaegar told Jamie that he was going to make changes once he took the throne. I think Brienne would be the embodiment of those changes. A new kind of KG who would voice her opinion plus as the Captain, she would be responsible for training and tactics. If Jon or Dany do take the throne, I can’t see either forcing her to do something blatantly evil. Plus, as you’ve noted she’s grown very opinionated, I think she would include that autonomy in any oath she would take. She’s maybe the most chivalrous Knight left in the books & show. I see nothing wrong with her arc concluding with her attaining the highest level of chivalry (even more so than other greats like Arthur & Barry) and doing it as a Lady Knight… That would be awesome to me.
Aegon the IceDragon,
A lot of Brienne’s dreams/thoughts in the book are about men and her marrying – so the guard would have to make some additional reforms to accomodate her interests.
TormundsWoman,
Except the KG demands blind obedience of their members and the ability to turn a blind eye or participation in any atrocity committed by the king, something Selmy and Dayne were all to quick to submit to. So yes, I do criticize them for wanting to be in this institution, especially Selmy who after years of enabling first Aerys, then Robert, still wished to remain a KG.
And Brienne wanted to blindly serve at the beginning, her story and her character have since grown and for her to join the KG would mean regression on her behalf.
Aegon the IceDragon,
Nothing changes the fact that it would still require Brienne to end up where she began, in a position that is essentially a glorified babysitter, when the realm is full of people far more vulnerable and in need. More than anything else, it’s a waste of he talents.
I strongly believe that the writers are having Brienne’s character develop from the woman she started of as, and having her join the KG, even a reformed one, is not the way to do it.
Something else I haven’t mentioned is that a large part of Brienne’s character has been her struggle to reconcile her life of a knight and a warrior with her secret desire to express herself as a woman and find love and romance. Joining a celibate order will basically mean having the ‘ugly woman’ accept she is incapable of finding love, and should just do without.
Something I want people to remember is that we hear Brienne reveal her desire to serve in the same scene she talks about the ball and all the mockery she has received. It is clear these two are linked, and highly suggested that Brienne serves because she feels unworthy to do anything else. So for her to serve just as she wanted at the beginning is not a victory for her character, because aside from a lack of growth it stems from self loathing.
Furthermore, Brienne tries to reject leadership and just stick to her vows, but her arc has forced her to look at the world in terms of grey and take on leading others (meeting Jaime, acquiring Pod). She is quite clearly being taken away from the woman she once was, blindly following those she has given her word to, accepting being called a lady.
All this is part of one journey, and her to end this journey of self acceptance and understanding of the world is not going to be joining the Kingsguard in any shape or form. Not when that is literally where she started up. Having the KG be reformed my dull the blow somewhat, but nothing changes the fact that would be a weak end for Brienne’s arc, showing regression, not growth.
Ramsay's 20th Good Man,
“….an angry little wildcard entered the stage talking of cutting off heads and carving off faces”
……………
Awwww. Our precious ASNAWP! 👸🏻❤️
I disagree with this concept that Brienne must stop serving to reach self-realization. We ought maybe to perceive the same in her that we would any major knight of the realm…. in service to their lords. They don’t go out on their own, they serve with honor to death. She’s just trying to be like one of the men, who she identifies with more than any feminine desire to be an individual and make her mark. That doesn’t fit the period mindset very well. And we don’t wish that for the men like Danearys’s loyal knights.
The question is whether it was wise to serve a Stark when they lost their holdings. This goes back to Brienne choosing sides and doing so to the death.
Olli,
Considering that Brienne reaffirms her desire to serve a lord in the same scene she reveals the abuse she has received, it is hard to ignore the link between the two, nor the link between Brienne’s growth in self-esteem and her ability to question what she previously felt about oaths and loyalty.
And it’s untrue that Brienne ‘is trying to be like the men who she identifies more with’. Brienne wishes to be a knight, but she has also shown a desire to be a lady. In her scene with Pod Brienne reveals how happy she was at her father’s ball when she was being courted. Brienne wants to find a balance between the two. She suffers from her struggle to be a lady as well as her desire to be a knight. That is fact.
Basically, a large part of Brienne’s arc is her changing how she sees herself, but also how she sees honour and oaths. This arc is not going to be concluded with Brienne ending up in the same position that she began.
I totally agree she won’t end up where she began, which would be dull story writing, at best. But when you view the occupation of knighthood and question her loyalty and service to her oaths, she is in the standing as men, not women. In that regard, we must judge her as those who fulfill this role in their society. Questioning your position and wanting to grown into your womanhood is absolutely not a pathway for a knight.
I can agree she should question that whole business of oath and loyalty, as should all knights of the realm. It’s their world we are judging though, and if she wants to be a knight, she accepts what it is. I think she has done that very well. Her self doubts may very well be those of a feminine nature, and her arc may pull her away from her occupation. But like Arya, she isn’t likely to ever be content as a lady. Indeed, her whole was about not being a lady and risking life and limb. But Arya would never be a knight either. She chose individual freedom. Brienne chose knighthood and all its incumbents. To grown in character, she may very well need to abandon her whole life’s mission of knighthood.
whateverdgaf,
I see. Your initial post was misleading though. Here’s what you said:
I do think that Aegon the IceDragon‘s point still stands. even so. The criticism that is leveled at Barry and Arthur for desiring to become a KG at a pretty young age, choosing this profession that required full trust in the person they serve is hardly prevalent in the fandom. Perhaps he should have said generally, “we (as a general population of fans) do not usually criticize Barry and Arthur for wanting to become KG”, I suppose, but that is a minor adjustment.
Aegon the IceDragon,
Arthur and Barry Lol that’s exactly what I just called them too and I haven’t even read your post! (I read the thread backwards this time from the bottom up)
I have no doubt that she has learnt from Jaime the lesson of too many contradictory oaths. And she seems to really have this hankering on to serve as a knight and have a purpose. I think if she thought the king/queen she’s about to serve is worthy, she may very well accept. She’s not the type to not question anyway at this point: she confronted Sansa to her face about lying and she only let her be because it was LF she lied about. She probably figured Sansa knows what she’s doing.
Interesting about show Brienne is that she has finally reached the Jaime point, the one reason she looked so down on him in the beginning “Fuck loyalty, there’s a bigger picture here”. From her judging him for killing Arys to ask him to rise up against what Cersei desires… that’s a pretty long road.
Olli,
I disagree with strongly with this idea that for Brienne to be a knight she cannot grow into embrace her womanhood. To be a knight Brienne has to be willing to put herself at risk to protect the innocent and vulnerable. To be a woman Brienne has to accept that no one has the right to tell her that to be a true woman. Neither one of these conflict. The backwards society of Westeros may believe it does, but Brienne is breaking free of these boundaries and overcoming them, not submitting to them.
Brienne is always going to be a good, noble and selfless person, willing to give up her life for others. In that, she is a true knight, no matter what Westeros says. There has always been an irony in Brienne not being named a knight whilst still holding more true to their values than acknowledged knights are.
Brienne’s arc has been about both her femininity and her desire to be a knight, and the her conclusion will be about her finding a balance between the two and knowing it doesn’t have to be either or.
TormundsWoman,
Wanting to be in the KG at a young age is one thing, continuing to want to uphold those oaths after witnessing first hand the destruction it can cause is another. Selmy himself didn’t quit, he was kicked out and had a big tantrum about it.
Through her interactions with Jaime, Brienne began to understand the truth of being a KG and it would be a failing for her to join the KG just as it was a failing of Selmy and Dayne and the others to continue in it.
Essentially, Brienne began her arc in a KG. This is where she was when she believed blindly in oaths and saw the world in black and white. This is what this role represents for her. For her to end back in this role after everything she has learned would be a very weak ending.
whateverdgaf,
True, but I was pointing out that you responded with a critique for their actual service (while already KG) to a poster that was talking about becoming KG when they were young, idealistic and generally thought it was an honor and all glory to become one. And that your original post was misleading. I never disputed that the job itself was rather terrible at times, what with all the oath taking and always obeying the king while he was abusing his wife and such and they should have all become Jaime: from Gerold Hightower to Arthur Dayne.
I’m not even sure why this back and forth, honestly. It’s easy to just say: yeah, I meant to type something else rather then keep responding to me just to cover an error in responding to the original poster with the wrong argument.
TormundsWoman,
The post said that Arthur and Selmy aren’t judged for wanting to be in the serve. The fact they continued serving the king after being aware of his actions and Selmy reacted so violently to being kicked out indicates that they very much still wanted to be in the KG and to serve. So, I judge them for wanting to serve and be in the KG.
whateverdgaf,
The context was given with the sentence before when he talks about Brienne wanting to become a KG/ having the same opportunity to become one. As I wasn’t 100% sure (one never can be with context and all), I said “ I think the poster was talking about becoming a KG” to which the original poster himself confirmed a bit lower in the thread that’s what he meant.
You either are trolling me or refusing to read the thread either way, I’m bowing out. I think for what is worth that the idea you had for her ending grew on my since last night and I’m now split on what I want for her.
TormundsWoman,
I am not trolling you. You criticised my arguments and I responded. If the context was meant to show the OP meant Selmy and Barristan before they joined the KG and therefore before they knew the true realities of it by comparing them to Brienne, then they overlooked that Brienne has learned from Jaime exactly what it means to be in the KG and therefore Brienne’s position is far more comparable to Barristan and Selmy as seasoned KG men, not as young boys. And as we are talking about Brienne’s endgame, the Brienne we are referring to is the Brienne as we last saw her and where she is going next that we are considering.
The other post to which you referred to confirmed that they had not intended for Brienne to be a mindless robot and for her to join a KG that is reformed (another issue I have addressed and responded.) Nothing about the age or knowledge of Selmy and Dayne and at which point we are meant to judge them. And truly, their desire to serve to the extent of joining the KG was always a flaw, just as it was in Brienne when she began her arc. However, it simply goes from a flaw stemming from ignorance , to a flaw stemming form immorality.
The problem I see is viewing her decisions from our current belief structure. Leave it to a woman to change the rules of knighthood, though eh! But think about that… because we did not question Selmy or Dayne’s sacrifices in the name of loyalty and servitude. Only hers. And, while they had to obey without doubting, if they earned their lord’s confidence, they could be more outspoken, depending upon the temperament of the lord, I suppose. But it was a great honor with many benefits to have this position. And it would be a disgrace to walk away. And then what options open up for a woman who saw her father’s knighthood as epic and worthy? She already said their was no fame and fortune in Sapphire Island.
Suppose we can consider all of Westeros changing after the final battles, and maybe knighthood going extinct, with a regular military type coming into play… some progressive thinking? Well not our story, but why not end on a note that ends the barbaric ways of Westeros… of which swearing fealty to a bad king was never the worst thing that could happen!
Olli,
Ending the barbaric ways of Westeros is very much something I hope to end with a note on. And with Brienne challenging so much of Westeros beliefs, both about women and honour, I truly expect her to be a symbol of that.
whateverdgaf,
Well said!
I’ve been saying this since S6 and S7. No only that, but it doesn’t take a genius to understand what LF said was BS. Anyone, who sees Arya for the very first time, would see she is not after titles. Even LF saying that about Arya it’s almost incredible. It makes him look rather stupid, but whatever.
Sansa, more than anybody else, should’ve known LF way before that. At the very least, since S6. Yet she is very much under his influence and follows his advice. Despite preaching to others the opposite. LOL
The script confirmed all I’ve been saying about her plot, what was going on with her and her “motivations”.
The show butchered Sansa’s storyline with contrived plots.
I do’t understand how her fans are happy with all the sh*te that went down with her, trying to justify every stupid thing and nonsense the writers made her say or do.
Who said anything about “him”?
I was quoting the article and whoever wrote it.
It could’ve worked, had they made Sansa work behind the scenes with Lord Royce. Later on, Arya could’ve come into play as well. Nope! They desperately wanted that stupid “gotcha” moment. Who cares whether that makes sense or not.
Funny thing is, Sophie Turner is still saying about her character, “she saw right through LF”. LMAO
I guess she never received the memo.
Agreed.
That whole storyline irritated me SO much. 😖 They succeeded in making Sansa look clueless and inept, Arya look crazy, and Littlefinger look completely stupid.
I think it almost bothered me the most with Littlefinger. I know most people hate him, but we are talking about a man who orchestrated, influenced, arranged, and weasled his way out of so many plots and situations over 6 seasons. Then he becomes some utter dunderhead who basically folds the second he’s called out. What???? Seriously? “Oh shit, you caught me, PLEASE don’t kill me, Lord Royce you must save me!” What??? Lol.
Littlefinger would have had one good appeal left in him, blindsided or not. “Ok, I admit I killed your aunt. She was also trying to murder you, and I stopped her. How’d that breeze from the Moon Door feel? Do YOU deny it? And did you not lie before the lords of the Vale? Do YOU deny it?”
There’s just so much that he could have said that would suit the character, and that would have made that scene so much more tense and interesting. I guess while everyone else was cheering that he died, I was sitting there going “That’s IT???!!!”
*lies down* 😆
whateverdgaf,
I understand where you’re coming from but I just view Brienne’s potential KG ending differently. She did start out in Renly’s KG but she had no agency. She was like a little puppy dog. More as a novelty that everyone mocked or looked down on.
I’m talking about her becoming Captain of the KG. Like her Great (Great?) grandfather Dunk. A position of power and control. Where she sets the new standard for how a KG Knight should serve. She takes the lessons and flaws from her love and mentor Jamie and learns from them and improves on them. Her having a seat on the Small Council. Her using her position to help others. And just like Dunk, she can find love and get married and have children if she so desires.
In our day and age we have the secret service to protect the President. So I see no reason why their shouldn’t be a reformed version of the KG in Westeros if their is still a king and/or queen. And I think it would be swesome to have a Lady Knight leading this new incarnation of it. I guess we just have different opinions on it and that’s fine.
But I’d be totally ok with that ending for Brienne because I think it’s far from where she began. She would have gone from a wannabe to a full fledged heroine who’s seen as one of the greatest, most chivalrous knights of her era. Just like Dunk wound up becoming. And she did it as a lady facing an even tougher road than he faced. I find that outstanding.
Aegon the IceDragon,
Whatever the KG is like, Brienne in the KG will always be a weaker ending than Brienne not in the KG, because no matter what she will still end up being where she started.
It’s not like there is anythin inherently good or honourable serving in the KG that would be worth sacrificing Brienne’s arc for, and so many alterations will have to be made to the KG to make Brienne joining it anything but a travesty, so what’s the point in having her join it at all at the expense of weakening the impact of her journey? She could protect and help the realm without ending up a situation that will weaken her arc by sending her back to square one, even an altered square one.
In fact, I believe joining the KG will limit Brienne’s ability to do good. Her main role will be protecting a family that will be surrounded by guards and that will eat up her focus. Meanwhile Westeros is full of truly vulnerable people who would benefit from Brienne’s work far greatly. I would far rather Brienne ended up in charge of the Gold Cloaks than the KG, because then she is protecting the people as a whole.
Brienne began this series devoting her life to one person in service, she is not going to end it the same way.
Brienne isn’t Dunk. Brienne isn’t in the Secret Service. Brienne is her own character and her journey is taking her away from life long vows and servitude. Not towards.
This is so; the “gotcha” moment was pretty priceless.
Yet, in retrospect it’s all muddled and left everybody confused as to who knew what when and what all their motivations were at each stage. Sophie insists that Sansa was being sly all along, but seems to be the only one claiming that…I suppose a “moment of realization” could’ve also looked like “Omg! You’re right! Killer Arya wants me out of the way—not because she changed her mind and wants to be a lady, but for power’s sake…” Or something. And then boom, you see that it was actually a moment that led her to consult Bran and discover the truth. Either way it’s easy to assume she was being fooled again, although that was evidently the end of him fooling her…
It is true that if we were privy to the deleted stuff before the trial, it would’ve ruined the twist…just wish we could’ve somehow gotten it all cleared up afterward. Say if we saw them casually discussing what had taken place.
Anyways. (Also everyone who was talking about Brienne made very good points, even if I tended to agree with Aegon the most.)
Aegon the IceDragon,
If you want to bring a parallel with Brienne and Dunk – why not go all the way?
Take a simple schematic of the Dunk story – Dunk and a man go on a road trip/a series of adventures. Unbeknownst to both this fellow would become king. Over their adventures, they develop a deep respect and love for each other. Eventually, Dunk becomes Lord Commander for the king that loved him and the king he loved.
Step 1: Try substituting Brienne for Dunk.
Step 2: The same writer that that wrote the Dunk &Egg story also told the actors that Brienne’s story was also a Beauty and the Beast story. Mash up this Dunk story with B&B and rewrite this story for Brienne.
Just a mind experiment.
Brienne only has one relationship that can put her in a comparable place of Dunk. Further, as you describe – where the King or Queen would place her at the head of the guard, give her the power to rewrite the rules for guards and knights, put her on the council and also give her the family life she wants.
Brienne barely knows Jon and Daenerys – she has never had a scene with either. As far as we know, they have never spoken. Her chances are better with Sansa who treats her like a servant but at least know her. Arya also – a little. Cersei calls her cow. She and the NK will never be friendly.
Perhaps we can agree that Brienne should look for a career that meets her needs outside of the kingsguard?
I doubt many of her fans are particularly happy with exactly how Season 7 went down. Most surely would’ve preferred she’d been more astute when it came to Littlefinger and I know they resent the writers raising the nonsensical spectre of Sansa betraying the family again.
However, it’s hard to understand how fans of any of the major characters can try to justify all the apparent inconsistencies and questionable behaviour the writers attributed to them last season.
Jon, Dany, Arya, Tyrion and Jaime all acted in ways that are near impossible to justify at times last season, yet people have been bending over backwards to do so ever since.
For example, people have gone to great lengths to insist that Dany burning the Tarlys alive was nothing like the Mad King. Pfft, of course not, right? And that she “gave them a choice” and how that actually showed the difference between her and her father.
Meanwhile, these scripts state that “Tyrion can’t bear to watch. He turns to Dany; but watching her isn’t any easier. It forces him to reckon with the possibility that Daenerys Targaryen, their last, best hope, is also her father’s daughter” and how he has to “wrestle with the implications of what he has seen”.
Funny how that sort of thing hasn’t gained much attention while people were scouring the scripts for evidence of Sansa’s duplicity and gullibility.
The scripts do nothing to clear up Jon’s inexplicable decision to bend the knee to Dany either, with all its inherent risks and consequences, when he apparently didn’t have to. Instead, we’re simply told that Jon was “blindsided by the words that come out of his mouth”. Well, that’s just great.
And a few lines earlier in the script he was also “thrown” by the realization that he loves Dany, because he’s “truly never seen a girl like this before. Her beauty, her strength, her grief and the pain it makes him feel…”. Good grief.
Remember at this point Jon’s beloved uncle, who he’d thought was dead for years, had just reappeared and died before his eyes saving his life. But, sure, his main feelings at this point would of course be about how pretty Dany is and how sad her dragon‘s death makes her feel. Jeez…
Honestly, as things stand none of these great characters emerged from Season 7 undiminished and without stains on their character(isation), as far as I can tell. And those scripts do little to improve the situation.
Personally, I don’t consider these scripts to tell the full story. And I hope there are still opportunities to redeem some of these characters’ obtuse and out of character behaviour in Season 7 with developments in Season 8.
But I do fear that these scripts reveal that Season 7’s complete dumbass-ery, which left almost no character untainted, was the best the writers / producers could come up with. And that really doesn’t bode well for Season 8.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I generally agree. Season 7 was a confusing mess for most of the main characters and a lot of the drama was cheap, manufactured drama that was unnecessary and added nothing to the enjoyment of the show. In fact, it made things worse.
I don’t entirely agree with this though. I’ve seen plenty of people on these boards assume that Dany will go all Mad Queen in season 8. Every character has fans that obsessively love or hate them for whatever reason. No one is immune.
And, to be fair, don’t forget that Sansa also had Ramsey eaten alive while she watched with a smile on her face. Had Dany done that everyone would be screaming that she’s gone full Mad Queen already.
The inconsistent writing for the last couple of seasons has really inserted a lot of unnecessary confusion into the story that didn’t need to happen. Like you said, I just hope it all pays off somehow and season 8 will make sense out of it.
Mr Derp,
That’s my point. There’s no point in wondering why fans of any particular character would try to justify their questionable behaviour, given that pretty much all of the characters were guilty of such behaviour in Season 7.
And while there are obviously those, like me, who have questioned Dany’s and Jon’s decisions and behaviour in Season 7, so far I’ve only seen the apparent revelations in these scripts being used to confirm people’s theories about Sansa, while things like the Dany comparison to the Mad King seem to have flown under the radar.
If people want to take these scripts as gospel proof of whatever theories they had about Sansa’s behaviour in Season 7, then they should probably take aspects relating to Dany just as seriously.
As for a comparison between Sansa and Dany, I think Sansa’s execution of Ramsay is more of a parallel with Cersei’s execution of Ellaria & Tyene, in that they’re both ironic deaths that serve as revenge.
I think they actually screwed up by not making more of a parallel between Sansa and Cersei in the downfall of Littlefinger. I mean, they included that “I learnt a great deal from her” line in Episode 1 and then never followed through on it.
Sansa manipulating Littlefinger and behaving more ruthlessly to the benefit of her house, especially after Jon shut her down early in the season, would’ve illustrated greater character growth than her only assuming the mantle 15 minutes before the end of the season.
Dany’s execution of the Tarlys was obviously a parallel between her and her father and, in my opinion, Stannis. Obviously, they make a point of the comparison when Varys recounts how he felt when serving the Mad King. But in that scene Tyrion defends her decision and denies any comparison between her and the Mad King; whereas these scripts appear to confirm that he’s privately very much aware of the similarities and is actively concerned about it.
I think there’s potential for that to come into play in the final season. For me, the events and decisions of Season 7 and their impact on the characters having consequences that influence the events of Season 8 will be key to whether or not it works.
Sorry to be so late to the party, but I really, really want to complement fellow WotWers on some Brienne discussion.
It’s important to realise that Brienne is actually the heir to Tarth, so she needs to put selfish, youthful ideals away and do her duty. Rule Tarth after her father as a ruling Lady in her own right. Oh, and provide heirs for House Tarth. She needs a husband, a consort, who has no claim and no interest in ruling…
If,and that’s a huge if, Jaime survives, he’d surely be attainted by whoever is in charge. Seven hells, he’d be lucky to survive his Stark encounters unless Bran gives him a pass – and he might.
Anyway, I think Jaime is going to die, maybe heroically, probably in the arms of the woman he loves (Brienne). Brienne then has to forge her own way, minding all Jaime taught her about knighthood and conflicting oaths.
Serving in the Kings Guard really isn’t the epitome of knighthood. Jaime knows it, Brienne is coming to realise it. I think her story is about so many vows, they make you swear and swear, but the vows/oaths conflict. She’ll hopefuĺly see the sham and the hollowness of these outdated institutions that too easily plead the Nuremberg defense (“I was only following orders.”), and do some real good with the power she actually has as heir, future ruling Lady of Tarth.
I have a fanfic scenario in my mind. Brienne coming home after the Great War. “Dad, here’s my boyfriend.” What would Selwyn Tarth think of Jaime fucking Lannister. How would sarky Jaime relate to his father-in-law? Comedy ensues…
All these fanficky scenarios are moot, anyway. Jaime will die,perhaps in Brienne’s arms. He jinxed it back in Season 5.
Also, we should remember that Brienne is a secondary character. She can have her own mini-arc, as long as it’s compatible with the arcs of the main characters.
The main character most associated with Brienne is Jaime. The Stark sisters are just coincidental. I expect important Jaime/Brienne interaction in S8. Not because of what it would mean for Brienne but because of what it would mean for Jaime, who is the main character.
talvikorppi,
I remain optimistic about Jaime – despite the malicious rumours. I agree that this hope of dying in his woman’s arms is a big concern.
Even more worrying is that GRRM is so in love with Targs. We could be headed for a Targ restoration with no role for Jaime – unless he and Brienne can exit to go to build a life in Tarth. Hahaha, on your introduction to Father…