The promotional photos for Game of Thrones Season 7 released today, and by now I’m sure you’ve all seen them (unless you’ve been living under a rock). There is a difference between seeing and truly seeing, however; as Syrio Forel would say, “Look with your eyes.” Light spoilers and speculation ahead, including references to information from released teasers and photos. Let’s break them down one by one and see what details we can glean from them – after all, picking things apart is what this fandom does best, right?
First up we have Queen Cersei Lannister (Lena Headey) seated on the Iron Throne with her loyal-beyond-all-sense brother/lover, Jaime (Nikolaj Coster Waldau), in attendance. Cersei looks as proud and defiant as ever, but Jaime looks…sad? Defeated? Maybe he’s wondering why on earth he’s still sticking around? It appears they are looking at someone, but who? Perhaps Cersei is simply hearing petitioners, or maybe someone important has come calling. Let’s hope whoever it is doesn’t get the Septa Unella treatment.
Next we have last season’s fan favorite and breakout star Lyanna Mormont (Bella Ramsey) at what I assume is Winterfell, possibly picking up right where the finale left off. Hopefully she is giving another fiery motivational speech to get everyone prepared for the real battle – facing the White Walkers. Of course, Littlefinger (Aiden Gillen) is in the background looking characteristically sleazy. He must be leering at an offscreen Sansa. Maybe Lyanna can have her 62 men take him out this season?
Here we see Ser Davos Seaworth (Liam Cunningham) at the main table Winterfell, to the right of Jon’s seat. He’s sporting a nice new fur cloak for the winter and seems to be listening to someone, but there isn’t much else we can take away from this photo. I’m just grateful he’s still around to give invaluable advice to King Jon Snow.
This is an interesting picture of Samwell Tarly (John Bradley) and Gilly (Hannah Murray) studying books – likely somewhere in the Citadel. Of course, astute observers immediately attempted to decipher the text Gilly is reading. Luckily Redditor itsjayrr realized it was taken from a passage in The World of Ice and Fire. The entire text is reprinted below the photo.
“It is also written that there are annals in Asshai of such a darkness, and of a hero who fought against it with a red sword. His deeds are said to have been performed before the rise of Valyria, in the earliest age when Old Ghis was first forming its empire. This legend has spread west from Asshai, and the followers of R’hllor [changed to The Lord of Light in the photo] claim that this hero was named Azor Ahai, and prophesy his return. In the Jade Compendium, Colloquo Votar recounts a curious legend from Yi Ti, which states that the sun hid its face from the earth for a lifetime, ashamed at something none could discover, and that disaster was averted only by the deeds of a woman with a monkey’s tail.”
Is this just a shout out to book readers, or will we get more information on Azor Ahai? Considering Melisandre alluded to Jon being The Prince that was Promised last year, I believe we will learn more about the prophecy and potential contenders this season.
Up next is Meera Reed (Ellie Kendrick) and Bran Stark (Isaac Hempstead Wright). Poor Meera seems exhausted after pulling Bran for so long. They both appear to be looking up, so hopefully they’ve arrived at the Wall and Castle Black. If Bran crosses the Wall though, what does that mean for the magic imbued in it? If the Night King’s touch allowed him to cross the magical barrier at the cave, will it do the same at the Wall?
Here we have another fun look at Tormund (Kristofer Hivju) and Brienne of Tarth (Gwendoline Christie). She seems to have made it safely back to Winterfell (hopefully with Podrick in tow), and Tormund appears to still be smitten with her. If we could see Brienne’s face, I’m sure it would be full of exasperated disdain like last season. I just don’t think poor Tormund can take Jaime’s place in her heart.
In this photo of Littlefinger and Sansa (Sophie Turner), they appear to be looking down on the Winterfell courtyard. He’s probably trying to pit her against Jon again, or maybe another sibling who (hopefully?) returns home this season. Sansa looks like she’s not sure how much more of his scheming she can stand. Please get rid of this guy already, Sansa!
It’s good to see the Hound (Rory McCann) still has a role to play, and either winter has spread to the Riverlands, or he has headed north. The latter is a likely assumption, considering the Hound’s encounter with the remaining Brotherhood Without Banners last year. They wanted to recruit him to fight the “cold winds rising in the North.” He appears to have soldiers with him, but it’s difficult to make out their allegiance.
This picture gives me chills – in a good way. Jon (Kit Harington) is definitely in the Winterfell crypts, possibly paying his respects to someone. It could be a newly interred Rickon, but I believe he is actually standing in front of the statue of Lyanna Stark, his mother. He looks sad (a common look for him, to be fair), and maybe a bit regretful? I think I even see a tear in his eye. Will he learn the truth of his parentage this season? We can only hope!
Next is Arya Stark (Maisie Williams). She appears to have left the Twins, but it’s difficult to tell where she is in this picture. Is it an inn? Maybe she frees Edmure and helps him take back Riverrun? Wherever she is, she seems fearful here. If you zoom in on her eye, you can see the reflection of what looks like a person silhouetted in a doorway. I wonder who could make her so afraid?
The final set of pictures are all of Team Dany. The first is of Daenerys Targaryen (Emilia Clarke) in the throne room at Dragonstone, as we saw in the Season 7 teaser released last month. I’m in love with her outfit – finally Targaryen colors!
The next three pictures aren’t terribly revealing, but they do show the rest of Dany’s entourage. Lord Varys (Conleth Hill), Missandei (Nathalie Emmanuel), and Tyrion Lannister (Peter Dinklage) are all wearing new, warmer clothing – much needed in the cold Westeros winter heading their way. Since Varys is wearing fur, his picture may be from later in the season, or perhaps another – colder – location?
The final photo appears to show Dany and crew assembled outside a castle. As we reported back in October of last year, filming took place in Zumaia, which appears to be where this was taken. This could be their landing point in Westeros; Daenerys seems to be looking up at her new home and readying herself for what’s to come. This will be a pivotal moment for her, and one she’s been preparing for all her life. Will she finally be able to take back her family’s throne?
What do you think of the photos? Do you have any other insight or speculation to offer? Let us know in the comments!
* Note: please cover/label all spoilers as appropriate! Thank you! *
Lyanna is wearing a different top than in the S6 finale so I don’t think it’s picking up right after the same scene. Definitely Winterfell though.
I don’t know if it’s just a coincidence but the time betweeen the first teaser and the long walk teaser was exactly 3 weeks and the time between the long walk teaser and the photos was exactly 3 weeks. So all have dropped like every 3rd Thursday. So maybe a trailer in a few weeks?
The cloaks of the soldiers with the Hound sort of look like Arya’s new cloak from the promo.
Still trying to figure out what’s in front of Arya’s clasped hands.
If Ayra is indeed afraid, I can only think it being Jaqen, No One. I just don’t think that story line is completely over. It could be, but…
Ten Bears,
Looks like a tray with food…pies.
The dragon ornament worn by Grey Worm in the group photo is the same one Missandei is wearing in the individual photo of hers. Does this mean Grey Worm dies this season? Thoughts?
Jaime looks pretty bad ass with what I believe to be Widows wail at his side, or does he not have it yet at this point.
Mark my words, The Season 7 trailer will release on May 26, or on that Week hopefully XD
Shreyans,
I suppose it’s possible, but Dany could have had more than one made to give to her advisors.
Shreyans,
No, I think they both simply have matching dragon pins for Team Dany but in the solo pic of Missandei she has the pin attached to material like a cape that she doesn’t have in the group pic. So I think either she simply alters her outfit later or we see Dany gift the pin to her possibly with a higher position to promote her with.
Ten Bears,
I’m wondering if the reflection in her eye is the hound walking into the inn she’s at.
Arya doesn’t look fearful to me. She looks watchful, curious, and maybe a tad apprehensive, but not fearful. And that looks like a wooden tray with food in front of her.
Wolfish,
It could be Hot Pie. Ayra may have just recognised someone who was important to her but can’t say anything until an opportune moment. That’s why she sits with her hands clasped. Hot Pie was Arya’s “family” for a time.
arya looks like she’s saw someone, maybe the redwoman? Or maybe it’s that moment when she got info about winterfell or about big direwolf hunting with her herd. Basicly man in background look in the very place what arya so that must be something or someone who bring their attention. Look at her fists – for me she’s doesn’t fearful, she’s too dangerous for now for being fearful, she just got some important information . And for me she’s an Inn or some tavern – and who know, maybe she’s gonna reunite with hotpie XDD. Sorry for my english i’m definitly better in reading than in writing.
I just realize it. Sandor is wearing what is appears to be the cloak of the former lem lemoncloak’s (the hanged bwob).
Kris,
Oh, yes. There’s lots of discussion about Hot Pie in the first thread about the new photos!
Orys Stark,
Someone posted this absolutely priceless tweet, from the actor who played Lemoncloak, in the first comment thread about the new photos:
https://twitter.com/johanneshaukur/status/855192741587951616
Wolfish,
Hilarious!! 😀
The actresses name is Emilia Clarke, not Emila Clarke.
Also, look behind Varys. He’s definitely still in Dragonstone in that picture.
Ten Bears,
Looks like a tray of pies – Hot Pie maybe?
Yeah, Lyanna’s definitely wearing something different to the S6 finale. And how fucking awesome does Sam look in his brand spankin’ new Acolyte robes? Hell, everyone looks amazing in their new wardrobe; especially Dany.
Matthew The Dragon knight,
Jamie is most certainly carrying Widow’s Wail. And it’s about time for that sword to show back up and hopefully get some use beside cutting up old historical books.
Shreyans,
I guess that Grey Worm will give Missandey that brooch with dragons before he goes somewhere, where Dany sends him. I don’t think that implies his death (though not excluded), but one way or another he’ll have to give that brooch to Missandei beforehand.
It’s great so far! I’m really looking forward to S7! No books, no spoilers for me this year… really hyped overall!
Vanessa Cole,
Indeed, Dany could have ordered more than one brooch for her closest friends, but in that case I would expect Missandei and Grey Worm wearing them in the same picure. It’s not the case. Grey Worm wears his brooch in the picture from Ep 1 (or 2). Missandei’s individual picture is from some later episode.
So, it looks more like Grey Worm will give his brooch to Missandei before he leaves – as a token of love or something. Anyway, I hope that Missandei will do something more prominent, than simply stand by Dany’s side and the brooch may be a hint to that.
Another thing, you have missed is that the page Gilly is reading have some inscriptions at the bottom and they look very much like lineage/horizontal diagram of some family tree. My guess is that it’s the Targarian falimy tree linked to the AA prophesy and therefore it may be the document revealing Jon’s true status or the document that will motivate Sam and Gilly to study Targaryan lineage more carefully.
Ten Bears,
I’d say she isn’t afraid at all but conflicted and sad – having seen someone she thought she had left for dead.
Kris,
Yes but he’s not so tall as some one else.
What is it with all these ‘reflections in the eyes’ this year. I don’t see Jaq-shit…
My speculations reference some info discussed in the Blu-Ray series. There are no spoilers from the books nor from leaks. Some of these photos remind me of predictions I have posted (or not?) in the past:
1) Meera pulling Bran. She is taking him to the secret passageway leading to the Night Fort, an ancient and magically extra-protected location where they met Sam and Gilly awhile back.
From there, they will travel by horseback (thanks Edd at Castle Black) to Winterfell. Then she/they will go to her home, Greywater Watch, a constantly shifting terrain that may evade the NK’s “mark” on Bran.
https://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-predictions-season-come/#comment-676256
2) Gilly and Sam. Shireen, a Grayscale survivor, taught Gilly to read. Gun on Wall: She will be the one who finds the cure for Jorah.
3) Jaime with Widow’s Wail, text of what Gilly is reading. Dawn, ancestral sword of House Dayne, is SUPER-important! http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Dawn
In Bran’s Tower of Joy vision, Ned killed Arthur Dayne with it, then rushed into the tower with it. It was last seen leaning against the wall while the focus shifted to Lyanna and baby Jon.
Perhaps it is the Red Sword of Azor Ahai. If so, Jon may need it to face the Night King. Since the NK was created by the Children with “ordinary” dragonglass/obsidian, Longclaw may not be effective.
Can’t wait!!!
I don’t understand why they stopped having the unsullied carry their swords if y’all will remember the first season they were on they had at least one sword along with their shield and their pointy stick thingy (forgot what it’s called). I could have sworn the unsullied were supposed to have mastered multiple types of weapons I thought that and their discipline was what made them so famous. Am I right? Or am I forgetting something?
All I know is those layers of leather and fur are going to be harder to get off for the sex scenes.
Speaking of those, Jon surely can’t learn about his parentage prior to bonking his aunty?
Violator,
If he does, I’m not sure it would make a difference in the context of Westeros. We see examples of cousin and even uncle/niece marriages in-universe (more so in the books), and they aren’t viewed as abhorrent or wrong. We even see it in our own medieval past among nobility. It’s the immediate family pairings that are “abominations” – siblings and parent/child.
It’s odd since the back ground behind Missandei looks like the same as where Grey Worm is too.
I hope not since would not expect that to happen until S8. The Unsullied would have to pick a new leader , nuts to that.
Cersei was meant to sit on the Iron Throne. She looks so beautiful and regal. My queen forever and ever!
That Dany group picture looks like Dragonstone not KL.
Interested to see some shots of Meera and Bran at Castle Black, where I guess Edd is the only main speaking character and in charge.
Flayed Potatoes,
You give my friend Georgia a run for her money in terms of Cersei adoration… 😉
As usual, the photos seem to be from early in the season – likely all from the first or second episode. They don’t want to reveal too much.
If Meera and Bran haven’t reached Castle Black yet, I’m really wondering how they worked up a sledge for Bran so quickly.
Flayed Potatoes,
This tbh
Can we just make it July already….
Flayed Potatoes,
Long may she reign!!
I wonder what Lindaa has to say about the show using that passage from twoiaf lol. I guess HBO would have had to take permission from her and Elio for using it?
Violator,
Hilarious. I think you are right. Jon, Mr Honorable, would probably think that’s a little weird. They have to shag, D gets preggers, and then discover it’s all a little icky – now that’s drama!
Wolfish,
Lemoncloak is screaming from his grave. LoL!
Athelstane,
Meera is a skillful girl… I mean… if this picture was from after they went to Castle Black, that would mean she was dragging Bran all the way to Winterfell?! I don’t think so.
Vanessa Cole,
You are right, it’s only sibling or parent/child relations that are looked down upon. Tywin married his cousin as did Ned’s father. The Starks also have Aunt/Uncle to Nephew/Nieces marriages in their history.
It would be far worse if they were siblings. Their relationship would be easily accepted in their times but not ours though perhaps a little awkward when the truth gets revealed. Though even in Jane Austen times relatives like cousins/Aunt/Uncles still married in the families.
Athelstane,
It’s not a real sledge: it’s an improvised one. Meera must have cut several fir-trees in the Weirwood and made the “sledge” out of them.
And the photos are from episodes 1 to 5 at least, as far as I could figure out based on the costumes.
Daenerys looks really good and her attire really grows on me. Also love the details on Missandei and Grey Worm outfits. Really cool work from the crew regarding clothes for Team Dragonstone.
Jon looks sad as always and glad we’re getting into crypts once more. Sure many tears will be shed during that from many fans. Seeing tombs for Ned, Robb and Rickon.
Really like Cersei on the throne … oh did I just said that? Jaime by her side is a bit off but whatever.
Tormund oh my sweet Tormund… Brienne wants Jaime.
Sansa’s wig looks horrible, quite the contrast of her and Dany’s or Cersei’s wigs.
Arya is in what looks some Inn or? She might be still in Riverlands, could it be the same in from season 3 Brotherhood or season 4 Brienne and Pod?
Jon Snows also not known as Jahaerys Targaryen is most assuredly in the crypts of Winterfell. All. The. Feels. ?
Not spoilers since I really don’t know any and have tried to stay the hell away from any spoiler materials:
1) I don’t think Jon finds out his parentage until MAYBE episode 7. They’re gonna milk that for the entire season, me thinks.
2) The Wall is coming down. Thanks, Bran! Kidding not kidding. He messed up bad.
3) Arya will be in trouble along the road North when Nymeria saves her.
3a. Stop killing the direwolves!!!
4) I think at least one of the dragons dies.
Those are all guesses. I really don’t know for sure.
The only thing I know is I’m HYPED AF for this season!
Vanessa Cole,
It would to Jon. He has the same high morals as his father/Ned who raised him. Jon might have sex with Dany. But, he will be repulse & reject her once his parentage is known to him.
Arya is in a Riverland inn listening to Ed Shireen sing a song extolling Jon’s heroism in taking back Winterfell.
Arya looks like she’s in a pub, and someone just walked in who she recognizes.
I bet Jon is paying respects to any number of recently deceased Starks he actually knew and cared for.
heh, interpreting facial expressions from stills is always quite dangerous: many very different moods include the same expressions over the duration! You really do need the sequence to tell if a particular look is in a “happy,” “sad,” “serious,” etc. sequence.
And to repeat what others have stated, Jon & Daeny would not be considered incestuous in Westeros. They certainly would not see each other that way: our instincts against incest are triggered by being raised as children together. Unrelated children raised on communes frequently view each other as unattractive for that reason. Jon & Daeny would be two good looking, charismatic individuals with similar values and goals who’ve never met each other. Think of it as being akin that “big” relationship you had in college where you thought you might have met “the one” for the first time: the meeting probably would be akin to that.
Phoenix,
That would only follow if there was thought to be something inherently immoral about avuncular marriage in Westeros. There’s no indication that is the case, anymore than it is considered odd for cousins to marry.
We don’t know the theory of time travel to which GRRM adheres. Bran’s screwup might have been a temporal tautology: it “always” happened. If the Three-Eyed Raven really had not wanted Bran to “trip” alone, then the Three-Eyed Raven should have told Bran why this was a bad idea. However: given that Hodor was Hodoring, under the “single time stream” theory, Bran already had done what he was going to do.
Under a different theory of time and time travel, the events leading to the NK breaking the spells around the Weirhub happen one way or another no matter what Bloodraven does or gets Bran to do. So, if Bran doesn’t do that, then he does something else. If so, then Bloodraven might simply have stopped trying to dissuade Bran after the umpteenth circuit through the time-loop.
We know that possible futures can be averted in GRRM’s universe, but we have no indication that the past can be changed. So, Bran probably was pretty much a poster-boy for supralapsarianism…..
You are projecting our values onto people who would not consider this relationship wrong! As several posters have noted, this wouldn’t be the case in Westeros. Moreover, why would only Jon feel that way? Why wouldn’t Daeny feel the same?
Trying to glean too much from teasers and stills is usually folly. However, this still does offer pretty strong evidence against the idea that Jaime is going to completely reject Cersei as a result of her Season 6 actions.
Or she could look lost in thought. Or taken aback or otherwise surprised. Or about to sneeze. Or terrified. Or any number of other things: without seeing where her face was a second before and where it goes a second after, it’s impossible to tell.
Wimsey, I need to go back in time to my younger days and partake in Bong rips to entertain your theory. Lol! Kidding. I get it. Is time alterable? Probably not.
Meant the Bran poke at the end as a silly pun akin to the ‘Thanks, Obama’ internet sarcasm of the past years.
Side note for all–I am NOT making a political statement in any fashion!
We’d all be better off with Queen Dany and King Jon with Tyrion and David as advisors.
Or just watch Doctor Who! 🙂
Sidenote: I missed that “Thanks Obama” allusion! But, then: maybe I was predestined to do that…..
Extra Stark, Please,
DAVOS^, not “David”
Extra Stark, Please,
lol…. I assumed that “David” was another allusion that I was predestined to miss! But if it was an autocorrect, then clearly predetermination played a role.
Agreed. That is not Maisie’s fearful look. She is so good and accurate with her facial expressions that nobody would doubt it’s fear if that’s what she was conveying. Nothing has changed my mind since yesterday and I still believe that it’s from the Sheeran cameo scene at an inn.
But, again: without seeing the immediate before and after, we cannot say that. Expressions are not snapshots: they are sequences. And many different expressions share snapshots somewhere in the sequence. Indeed, the one thing that tells us that Arya is reacting to something and not just staring into space lost in thought is that the two people behind her appear to be looking at the same thing.
The fact that the two men behind her are looking is a little more informative. Because they are turning slightly to look at whatever it is (whereas Arya has only to turn her eyes slowly), this tells us that whatever has their attention was calling attention to itself. That argues against, say, some person wandering into an inn: that happens so much that most people pay it no mind. There could be someone speaking up front, or some entertainer singing/dancing/whatevering, or a fight breaking out or a wolf howling immediately outside of the building or some Frey soldier holding up a “wanted” poster showing the serving wench thought to have killed Lord Frey: or any of a very large number of other things. All we know is that it has grabbed attentions, including Arya’s.
I think many will feel a bit weird seeing sansa because of the using of wig for first time ..but on the other hand dany’s look good ..
It would be so nice if Gilly read the passage from Jade Compendium that jon read in ADWD..
I can’t wait to see the disappointment of those who think that jon will become repulsed and reject dany..
I wonder who dany is looking at or what that scene is supposed to be. .we can see its in the throne room and missandei in the back ..if I have to guess it must be when jorah comes back because it’s the only time show has dany feel emotional.
Wow! Great pictures and loving the new costumes as well.
I do think that Jon is standing in front of Lyanna there, probably after he heard it from Bran. Though it could be something else of course but I doubt it.
What a day! Pics of the new season and Ajax through to the semi-finals of the EL.
Wimsey,
Yes, yes, you can say the same sort of thing about everyone of these pictures. Still, we can get a pretty good idea of the probable mood from a single shot.
As my favorite character and favorite cast member I always pay close attention to Maisie and her expressions. I don’t see any fear in this photo and don’t expect there will be in the scene. She appears to be sitting quite relaxed watching and listening to something of interest, just as the men behind her are. This is why I’m of belief that they are all listening to a minstrel played by Ed Sheeran.
What do they do with a cameo appearance of a singer who’s casting was mainly because Maisie is a huge fan of his? A short appearance singing a song in a scene with Maisie makes perfect sense.
Wolfish
Maybe she’s listening to a singer – what’s his name, the popular one that is supposed to guest on the show.
Phoenix,
I think the people shipping incest between Jon and Dany says more about their own lack of morals or perhaps their own shallow gene pool than the shows.
I would love to have a look at Ned’s and Robert’d face when they hear Daenerys Targaryen leading all the dothraki has taken dragonstone with three dragons..
kathy,
Or it doesn’t really matter because they’re fictional characters.
kathy,
Or you know people are capable of separating what is fiction and what is real ..
dragonbringer,
It won’t be Jorah. She’d be happy to see him based on their previous interactions. She cried during their convo.
As for Jon. He needs her armies … he won’t reject her but surely won’t be impressed with her attitude. I can see him having problem with that and if she does not believe in the other stories, that might be too a problem. The North needs help now and every potential day or week wasted at Dragonstone could be costly.
He’ll most likely grow to like her but once parentage is out, what would be in his character is to end for the sake of everybody. Of course if he manage to knock her up, it could complicate things. Do I expect them to end any potential relationship based on this, probably not. Show or books will push him into Targaryen ways … it’s inevitable.
Jad,
The dragon has three heads?
Geralt of Rivia,
Well she can get emotionally happy when she sees jorah cured… It could be emotions settling in because after all dany is finally in her home the place she was born and the place where Targaryens and their dragons lived ..On second Thought it maybe when jon departs for jon and dany walks with him..
I know these photos must be from first couple of episodes but I have a feeling some of this maybe in later episodes..
Well the north took six seasons to belive in WW and how many from Ned to Robb to others who had ignored this threats ..people can’t expect dany to start believing straight away either ( but of course one would think if anyone who believes in the WW it will be Dany because she has faced the realms of magic that only bran can match )
I don’t think jon will feel any different in how he sees dany even when the parentage is revealed and I don’t think it will be out of character for him either ..Sean.c and wimsey have gone over this much better than me..
Let’s Just agree to disagree here and wait till the show does this..
She might indeed be fearful had Jaqen appeared, though I think if he were truly a threat to her he’d be wearing a face. I concur with Clob and Wolfish that this expression is probably not fear. FWIW, in S2-6 at least three times at the slightest hint of potential trouble, Arya has immediately wrapped her hand around a sword hilt. Here her hands are in a relaxed clasp. Her expression could be mild apprehension, though I think it’s intense interest, a bit of surprise (slightly lifted left eyebrow) plus mixed emotions including love, probably for her family (tearful eyes). I still think someone brings the news of Jon’s victory, but I agree she might be hearing a song. I just hope it is about the North finally remembering rather than the mysterious death of Walder Frey! That would be awkward!
Inga,
In case you didn’t see my reply to you about this in the thread where we first saw the photos, I shall quote myself: It looks like a tree pattern. It’s possible there are initials or very short words on it, or it might be purely decorative.
Or it means that they’ve been paying attention to:
1) the moralities developed for Westerosi (which, believe it or not, do not match your own);
2) the development and evolution of Jon and Daenerys as fictional characters.
Remember, definitions of incest vary enormously under different morality systems. In Westeros, incest means brother-sister or parent-offspring. Aunt-nephew would not be considered incest.
There is no such thing as universal morality: and the moralities that humans create reflect the world around them heavily. There have been several notable comparative religion studies documenting this. Everybody (and pretty much every deed) is immoral given some morality system.
while I agree Arya and Sansa could be “acceptable” in show, it would ONLY be AFTER Jon learns the truth about who he is. Anything before that would be “icky” to Jon because they would still consider themselves “siblings” and Jon isnt gonna marry his little sister.
Jon and Dany on the other hand have never met, and when they do will not be aware of their “history”. Their meeting and falling in love has been hinted at very heavily. I am not saying it will be happy ever after, or that there wont be DRAMAS when they learn the truth about Jons parentage but for at least a period of time they will be on each other like bread and butter and I will be swooning every minute of it 😉
Jaqen walking into the room would not get the attention of the two men behind Arya. Whatever has her attention is something that is generally attention-getting: it is not something or someone uniquely important to Arya.
Now, this is not to say that what they see is not frightening to Arya. It could be that, or it could be amusing or it could be just surprising: that particular look goes with many, many different expressions. Single shots only rarely can communicate emotions.
Not only do I not think that this is inevitable, I think that it’s almost impossible. Jon is Ned Stark’s son, regardless of who provided the actual sperm. Jon will spend his entire life asking himself: “What would Ned Stark do in this situation?” He knows too little of the Targaryens to use them as role-models.
Indeed, I will bet my bottom dollar that when the “crunch” decisions are being made, what Ned Stark did to protect one little boy that was not even Ned’s son is going to be the single most influential “relation” factor for Jon. I think that when Daeny realizes the “why” of what Rhaegar did, then it will have a similar effect. This is a story, after all: and stories are created by the parallels in how the main protagonists evolve.
dragonbringer,
Why not?
Spoilers
Of course you dislike for Dany to be in the position of being blind to the danger but she has seen dragons, warlocks and other things. Tyrion would advise her not to dismiss Jon easily. Don’t think King in the North would go all the way to Dragonstone … if it was not a very important matter. Starks and Targaryens do not like each other very much after recent events – so it is a potentially risky scenario for Jon and yet he did that. What does that tell you?
She might demand for him to come upon her arrival but Jon could easily refuse it and let her come in the winter conditions. If it was indeed a trap from him or just Jon caring about himself. Tyrion is the bridge here and hopefully he’ll knock some senses all around.
This is a mentality of people shipping them. It won’t be a big deal, they’ll love each other until the end of days.
Spoilers
It will end probably with a wedding, eternal love and babies. Jon leigitimized as a Targaryen. I made my peace with it.
Clob,
I too am a Maisiephile, i.e. a fan of the Many-Faced Goddess.
I don’t detect any fear or concern on Arya’s face. Her hands are folded in front of her; if she was the least bit apprehensive, her hand would already be on Needle.
I think back to S4e1, “Two Swords”, and promo shot a few months earlier: the minute Polliver turns around and says the first three words, “I know you…” but before he finishes his sentence with “You’re the Hound”, Arya’s hand has already reached back to grab the hilt of Sandor’s sword.
Also, in S4e10 (Brienne + Pod encounter Arya + The Hound), Maisie’s changing expressions convey her emotions: initially, relaxed and convivial when comparing sword names and upbringings with an apparent nonconformist female warrior/kindred spirit… But as soon as Sandor points out that Brienne’s got a sword with Lannister gold, Arya’s expression shows caution and concern.
In the photograph, I see none of those facial expressions or body language that would suggest Arya is in “fear” of anything. She seems to be relaxed, and watching whatever it is the guys behind her are looking at. Her hands are folded comfortably in front of her, not clenched tight or reaching down.
(But darn it! I still can’t make out what’s in front of her. At first it looked like an axe head…and my mind flashed to Arya + Sandor inevitable reunion foreshadowed in S5 and S6.)
Wimsey,
By Targaryen ways. If Jon ends up as the King, It has to be as a Targaryen. Stark name has no significance South of the Neck. Riding a dragon is potentially a certain trait known to = Targaryens. If he willingly sleeps with his own family member = Targaryen way. I do not judge them but it is what it is.
Jon is different to Ned in many ways. In fact, Jon has tree parents at this point but don’t easily dismiss Lyanna and Rhaegar. They might be only names, but pretty important to him … he’ll want to know more about them and possibly to embrace his heritage. He has connections to Targaryens Aemon, potentially Daenerys. ¨
We had Jon becoming defacto a Stark in all but his name last season, next seasons Targaryen? How many times people on the show, the books or Jon himself is being reminded … he’s not a Stark. The end for him is to be a Targaryen in many ways. Do I like it? No, but this is where story is seemingly heading.
Spoilers
Would the inn not be the Inn at the crossroads which has had some famous meetings along the years? Also has anyone been able to go right into the reflection in Arya’s eye? It couldn’t be Jon could it? One going North the other South. I don’t see a look of fear on her face I see anticipation and Jon’s face breaks my heart.
Stark RAven’ Rad,
I just read your interpretation of the Arya picture after I posted mine a few minutes ago. It looks like we independently came to the same conclusions (eg at the first sign of danger, Arya would have her hand on a sword).
Therefore, I pronounce our interpretations to be the correct ones, with a < 5% margin of error.
Arya: She didn’t look anything to me; all I could say is that she’s not in the middle of a laughing or crying jag. That look could be followed with fear, with a smile, with a yawn…anything.
As for her meeting someone: I’ll guess Sandor; they’re obviously going to meet sooner than later. What I’m most hoping from her story is an explanation of the Faceless Men and their interest in her and in Westeros.
Sansa: I’m not sure if she looks as if she’s had it with Littlefinger; last season ended with her giving some credence to his words. I’d say she’s looking dissatisfied about something, but she has so many things to be annoyed by that it’s hard to know what it might be. May she be provided with speech to explain her motivation.
Littlefinger: Along with Tywin, my favorite villain of the series. The man plotted and successfully destroyed Ned, created the War of the Five Kings, defeated the Baratheons. Even Tywin played to his tune. Knock on wood they don’t let him go down idiotically.
Jaime and Cersei: I adore both of these characters, and the actors playing them. Last season ended with Jaime’s double take on Cersei; he’s just starting to realize that she’s going places he’s unwilling to go. Since the show Cersei is (happily) not the one-dimensional villain the novel Cersei is, it makes sense for their break to take longer.
Lyanna: Here’s to hoping they don’t reduce her to an Inspirational Speech Giver. Oy.
Tyrion: Still looking like Dany’s worshipful adviser. May someone remember that Tyrion once had a clever mind, that he is the one Lannister sibling who is most like Tywin.
Jon, Dany, incest: Not incest in Westeros. I think Jon will be more shocked to find out that she’s his aunt as that means Ned isn’t his daddy than to find out he had sex with his aunt.
I agree that Sansa’s wig is absolutely horrendous. In the side view the picture was taken from, it not only makes her face look chubby, but also her whole head overly large and misshapen. You’d think they would at least try to make as much of an effort as they have with Daenerys’ and Melisandre’s.
Also agree that Varys is in Dragonstone. You can see the distinctive striation of the ‘flysch’ rock behind him.
Phoenix,
Greetings, name-sibling! 🙂
The only thing better than GOT promo pics is a Watchers On The Wall breakdown of GOT promo pics! (Or of course a new episode.)
And speaking of Littlefinger, doesn’t anyone ever notice he never joins in on the “King of the North!” chants and just stands there with his back to the wall looking all shifty-eyed and silently but obviously throwing shade on everyone?
Wimsey,
Yeah, I kinda thought the same about 3ER and Bran. Specifically, 3ER knew that at some point in the past Wylis had to become Hodor. So, once Einstein Bran decided to take a solo trip and inadvertently caused the 3ER cave shields to drop, the 3ER knew it was time to take Bran back in time to Winterfell to fry Wylis’s brain and turn him into Hodor.
That’s why when “Avatar Bran” in the past hears Meera’s faint voice echoing from the future pleading with him to warg into Hodor, the 3ER tells Bran: “Listen to your friend.”
(At that critical juncture, 3ER was not simply taking Bran on a sightseeing tour back to Bran’s family home in the past. The visit was for the express purpose of “creating” Hodor. )
Ten Bears,
I don’t necessarily think Arya would immediately go for her sword – it could be a person she would perceive as a threat but who may not recognize her. In that case going for her sword would draw unwanted attention to herself, and someone who spent time training to be a faceless assassin would know how to blend into the background.
Fienix,
I see we’re not done with WigGate.
Vanessa,
What I meant was that in similar situations, Arya covertly moves her hand to be ready to draw a sword without drawing attention to herself (eg S4e1).
Missandei’s pin is from costume designer Michele Clapton’s Dany-inspired high end jewelry line from season 7. It’s like just self-promotion, since many of those items had little collectible value upon release.
I don’t see fear on Arya’s face in that shot, either. Wariness, perhaps; but Arya has learned always to be wary. It’s a big part of why she’s still alive. (Also, hypervigilance is a common symptom of PTSD.)
She could just as easily be about to break into a grin upon recognizing Hot Pie. At present, I’m leaning toward the ‘Ed Sheeran cameo/song about KitN’ hypothesis.
Geralt of Rivia,
But Jon has attained his titles based on merit and accomplishments, not based on family name.
Plus, in S1 he forged a good relationship with Lord Tyrion (nka Hand of the Queen to Daeny) based on an friendship and respect, not because of family names or titles. Jon started out insulting Tyrion for calling him a bastard, but by the time they said their farewells (“sorry to see you leave”), he trusted and confided in him.
I think that foundation of mutual respect, created without ulterior motives back in S1, will benefit them both.
Petyr Baelish looks about ten years older in that shot (also like he has no arms). Wonder what’s worrying him – the ascendancy of Jon? Finding out that the Hound is alive and headed Sansa’s way with incriminating information?
Sansa just looks stern and cold to me there.
Geralt of Rivia,
My objection to this whole line of thinking is that there is no such thing as “Targaryen” or “Stark” or whatever. Yes, sociobiology is not without merit. However, this is a novel: and in novels, it’s all about how the main characters evolve. Jon is not going to suddenly have “Targaryen genes” kick into play that will radically alter his behavior. This would be no different from the idea that Jon was going to be burned and then arise from the ashes as Azor Ahai: as stories come from the step-by-step “anagenetic” change of a character, this sort of metamorphosis would basically toss the story out the window!
Now, will Jon do things differently from what Ned did? Almost certainly: and in big part because of Ned, because Jon will know some of the mistakes that Ned made. Ned was, after all, to narrow in his morality (or “honor” as Ned called it): and it got Ned killed in the end. Jon, on the other hand, already has been forced into major moral conflicts, and he’s worked out morally gray solutions on his own. Somewhat ironically, Jon’s betrayal of his vows (with Ygritte and then by letting the Wildlings into Westeros) stem in large part to his life-long quest to be worthy of being Ned’s son rather than Ned’s bastard. (And one could see Ned slowly and somewhat reluctantly saying “Those deeds…. were not entirely without honor.”)
And this is where Jon is heading. There are going to be some painful decisions coming up, particularly once Jon & others (including us!) learn the whole truth about the White Walkers. The man making those decisions is going to be in large part a consequence of the boy trying to earn Ned Stark’s esteem.
Whoever it is that Arya is staring at, the men sitting behind her appear to be just as impressed by him or her as she is. So my guess is Sandor “I am no knight” Clegane.
While still stuck on the Arya picture…
IF we agree that she’s most likely at an inn then I have additional thoughts. Now I realize that in terms of writing for the show they may not be too concerned about exact locations and directions. However, there is a chance that they are or can be. What I’m getting at is that the Inn at the Crossroads is south of The Twins.
On the show they have not shown an inn north of The Twins between there and Winterfell. That is except for the brothel/inn where Theon and Tyrion had relations with Ros in season one. That place was supposedly very close to Winterfell, which in the books would be right outside the gates in Winter town. I don’t believe they’ve had a ‘normal’ scene at an inn supposedly right outside Winterfell.
With that in mind, for Maisie to be at an inn previously on the show it’s likely to be the Inn at the Crossroads. If they were to make note of direction then she’d be heading south from The Twins, halfway to King’s Landing. If we think and/or believe that she does go to Winterfell this season then it’s possible that her plans of heading south (KL) change upon hearing news along the way and turns for home… Just a bit of brainstorming.
I don’t see a family tree in the book that Gilly is reading. I just see a vine motif. Though why a book would be written in that format, with so much empty space at the bottom of each page just for decoration, seems oddly wasteful of parchment or paper, which would have been costly.
The two men behind her also appear to be just looking and sitting, too. Neither appears to be rising. That’s important because you have to stand to draw (or while drawing) a sword.
I dont want Jon and Dany together, I just dont want an artificial storyline for these characters just because must of the fans want them together, so far i´ve liked both their journeys on the show and I will like to see them as allies, eventually finding out they are related, that they are family, and if you think about its the only family Dany has left, which is sad and it will be very touching and emotional to see if they found out the are family.
kathy,
Ha Ha HA.Be careful you are going to break the string from all that pearl clutching.
You’re probably right, although when it comes to the relative orientation of sites in the “middle” of Westeros, I tend to get easily muddled. And I own the big fancy map package! So I imagine that show-only fans have even less of a clear sense of where things are in the area where the Riverlands, the Vale and the Crownlands come together.
It would certainly be good for the drama if Arya found out something at whatever inn that is that changed her mind about where to go. What I seriously question is why she would pick King’s Landing as her initial destination, as I don’t put much stock in the idea that trying to get close enough to Cersei to kill her would be one of her top priorities at this point.
Clob,
Oh that would be so good.Like her being focused on revenge and killing Cersei and The Mountain but then hearing that Jon is king and that her family is back at Winterfell and changing her mind.That would fit so well with her character.I hope it happens.
Interesting theory that Arya is headed south, but then hears info about the Starks taking back Winterhell, so she decides to head north instead.
However, my only issue with this theory is that she already said last season that “I’m Arya Stark and I’m going home”.
Sounds like she already had her sights set on Winterhell to begin with.
Ann,
I agree to the sentiment… I’d hate if they fall in love with each other and suddenly GoT becomes a RomCom. I would not object, however, if Jon and Dany enter into an alliance which includes a loveless marriage.
A Dornish Tyrell,
Re: loveless marriage
Would this include an heir IYO? Is an heir important for the next Ruler(s)? Maybe, Jon and Dany would push for city-states with more representation in King’s Landing to mitigate future power vacuums? That (more power to the regions/less to IT) doesn’t seem like Dany’s MO.
Clob,
Carole H,
Wouldn’t it be great if you both are right and that it’s Jon that Arya is seeing and that he convinces her to go to Winterfell instead of Kings Landing so that she can keep an eye on the Littlefinger/Sansa situation? As for why the men behind her turn to look as well, someone might have mentioned that the KITN just walked in the room.
All storylines are artificial: that’s a big difference between “story” and “history.” Moreover, why in the world would you believe that GRRM or B&W write any of this stuff based on what fans want? Given the incredibly strong parallelisms between Jon & Daeny, and even given some of the vague foreshadowings, I suspect that this has been in the cards from the beginning.
mmk,
If Arya was seeing Jon in that picture, she’d be jumping into his arms. And sobbing. Just like the viewers. ??
Go back and watch the scene in S1e2 when they last saw each other, and tell me what you think.
Phoenix,
Would this be the same Jon who was ready to bang his half-sister once he found out she was “only” his cousin in the original outline?
kathy,
Interesting theory. While I personally don’t ship Jon/Dany, I do heavily ship hyperbolic moralistic fan outrage with schadenfreude. And I’m feeling pretty confident about that ship becoming canon this year.
Tycho Nestoris,
That’s an interesting question… I’m afraid we will see very little of the frozen post-apocalyptic Westeros. My guess is that the survivors will have to figure out how to rebuild society and new forms of governance. Therefore an heir could or could not be relevant.
What I meant with “an alliance with a loveless marriage between Dany and Jon” is that, if/when they meet, I assume there will have to be negotiations similar to the one Yara and Dany had (and even though Yara never demanded, she was up for anything really…) 🙂
I guess my thoughts on that are that she’s already not gone directly Home by going to The Twins first. The last time we saw her she also wouldn’t have known yet that the Starks had retaken Winterfell. By her saying “going home” it would seem that also included taking care of some business first. As far as WE know she doesn’t know yet which of her family is alive, if any. That will be information we’ll have to see her receive.
Ann,
I highly doubt that the writers will have Jon and Dany fall in love as a fan pleasing measure. If it happens on the show, it will have come from GRRM himself.
I have never understood why the people who have no problems with friendships and other alliances have such a big problem with love. Two people being friends is okay, but love is somehow too cheesy or Disney. Love is as real and essential in any world as friendship, family or any other relationship.
If Jon and Dany get together, there’s really no purpose for it on the show other than to have some kind of heir for the next generation, but that’s just my opinion.
It’s certainly possible that there will be no heirs by the end of the series, but if there is, who? Pretty much none of the main protagonists have children at this point. I can think of Sam and Gilly, but that’s it.
Wimsey,
Jesus, come down! I see most of you want them together, It was just my opinion and point of view, I just don’t want them together romantically speaking! David and Dan have never disappointed me with the writing and story so far, and I just hope that will be the case next seasons.. a lot of other shows usually mess up all the characters with story lines that really don’t make sense at all at the end.. however I trust GOT will be the exception =)
A Dornish Tyrell,
hehe jon is not nearly as adventerous as Yara☺️
Is that Widows Wail that Jamie has stuck in his belt?
I would add that Tyrion will be arriving in Westeros with both Jon and Sansa predisposed to trust him: after all, Sansa’s last words to Ramsay before he raped her on their wedding night were something along the lines of “Lord Tyrion was always kind to me.”
A part of Sansa’s journey that I have always appreciated is that she arrived in KL having dreamed of it her whole life, with visions of handsome knights and colorful silks filling her naïve little head. She left having been used and/or abused by nearly everyone she came in contact with outside of her own family, and other than the Stark men and their retainers, only two men ever protected her: Sandor and Tyrion, both seen as monsters by the world at large.
I wonder if she has consciously come to that realization yet.
Uddane,
The consensus is yes. 🙂
It does look very likely:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/70/08/32/700832bdf3d055fc36a1426d870346ba.jpg
Wolfish,
Ah, Sandor: The one who insists “I’m no knight”, yet is the only one who ventured out to rescue the damsel in distress. Poor guy is so damaged he couldn’t even graciously accept Sansa’s gratitude for saving her.
Also… excellent point that the only non-Starks who tried to help her were two men thought of as monsters by the world at large.
Arya is leaning in, listening intently. Her hands are together resting on the table. She’s calm, but alert. I think she’s at an inn, and someone is speaking or addressing the patrons; Maybe word that Jon Snow has been named KITN. That would be my guess. Also, Sansa’s wig is not so bad. It’s only because we know that we’re preoccupied with it. But, she looks stone cold-hearted to me, not unlike her mother…a-hem.
Lulus Mum,
Hi, once again. I have seen your comment on the previous thread and left my answer, but let’s continue our discussion here, if you are in the mood.
Firannion,
I don’t know how good your screen resolution is, but the diagram at the bottom looks nothing like a decoration/vine motif.
As a medievist I work quite a lot with hand-written books and if my experience can be applicable in this case… Well, I’ll simply tell you what I see. The main text of the book is written calligraphically; the scrip is bold which means that the writer used a rather thick pen and high-quality black ink; the capital letters are written in red. Meanwhile, the diagram (or pattern) at the bottom was drawn using a very thin pen and a different kind of ink which looks more grey than black now. The inscriptions along the lines are not calligraphical and the handwriting looks differen: I think I can see digits 9 and 1 or 7 at the very bottom, and my conclusions about the handwriting are based on that. So, all in all it really looks like a rather typical bottom note/insription left by some later reader of the book, and not a decoration: decorations (marginals) share the style with the text and this is obviously not the case.
Moreover, the structure of the pattern is very similar to a typical horizontal diagram of a family tree: there are lines and branches accompaignes with short textual and digital inscriptions which may represent names and numbers of children and/or generation. Again, it’s something rather typical. So, based on the fact that Targeryan lineage is the only lineage that is the matter of interest in this story, I guess that it’s a Targaryan family tree.
As for why the show might be introducing it in such a way, the reason may be purely practical. It has to establish that the AA/PTWP will be a Targarian, right? In the books it is established through the wood-witch’s prophesy, but the show has skipped the wood-withc. Her revelation on Arya’s fate was given to Melisandre and the Targarian PTWP/AA reborn prophesy has to be conveyed in some other way too, otherwise it would be very hard to link AA to the Targarians. However, the AA legend and the Targaryan family tree on the same page may establish the required link rather effectively. It doesn’t matter really, who drew the family tree (it could have been some red priest or one of the Targaryans), but if we’ll see the AA legend/prophesy and the Targarian family tree on the same page, we will accept the link by default. And the same applies to Sam and Gilly. I guess that Sam will think that the prophesy applies to Dany: she is the last Targaryan; she has dragons; and she is landing in Westeros in the hour of the direst need. But Gilly will notice that Rhaegar had 3 children, not 2 and start wondering what happened to the third child. She will start asking questions; Sam will realize that he has no answers and that will stimulate further investigation which will eventually lead him to Jon Snow. At least, that’s how I imagine it. I may be wrong, of course.
No matter what they do, there will be fans who complain that it does not make sense: fans have too many different (and often completely conflicting) views on the characters. Moreover, people have a bad habit of confusing “it does not make sense to me” with “this was senseless.”
One “stealth” development is that everybody who gets to know Tyrion comes to esteem him. This is also another strong parallelism between Jon & Daeny: both initially view Tyrion with hostility (and for good reasons!), yet both wind up praising him. They are not alone: as you note, Sansa has a positive opinion of him, and several secondary characters such as Varys also think well of him. Heck, even dragons like him: and not in the usual “tasty with ketchup” sort of way!
Ten Bears,
Wolfish,
Excellent points!
Sandor is such a damaged character: he wears his “monstrosity” as an armor (as Sansa uses her courtesy.)
/bacon bits out nose
/reaches for wine earlier than planned
kathy,
I guess “incest shipping” of Jon with his aunt or one of his cousins is a pleasant distraction, but I don’t think GoT will devolve into “which lucky bachelorette is going to date Jon Snow?”
I thought the endgame that’s been beautifully set up is:
• Humankind is facing an existentialist threat – yet most people are laughing it off like it’s the Tooth Fairy;
• The few people who take the threat seriously don’t yet have an effective way to fight it;
• Not only that, but the enemy is doubly lethal: every allied soldier killed in battle immediately becomes an enemy soldier;
• Nobody knows what the enemy wants – if anything – other than to exterminate the human race.
Unless – and I HOPE this doesn’t come to pass – the fate of humanity rests on Jon Snow copulating with the right bachelorette*, I’m not sure how his sex life will be a significant focus of S7.
* I will NOT be a happy camper if the show ends with a newborn baby as the future Azor Ahai/Prince that Was Promised.
Wolfish,
“I’m here to help. Don’t eat the help.”
Ten Bears,
Yeah, I can’t wait until Saner Half watches that scene. (We’re up to S4, Ep1, so he gets to see Joffrey choke tonight!)
Agreed on your previous comments. After all, GRRM promised us a “bittersweet” ending… and I, for one, will be quite vexed if Daenerys gets a child in the material world. It would cheapen the story for me.
I think permission from George might be enough in that case?
Don’t worry. Tumblr will surely devolve into that. Jonerys vs Jonsa vs Jonarya: War of the Three Ships!
Ditto on the baby. That would be lame and a waste of my time tbh.
Wolfish,
Wait, you’re up to S4e1? Or e2? I thought Joffrey turns purple in e2.
If you’re about to watch S4e1 with Saner Half tonight, please tell me you’re serving chicken for dinner.
Or at the very least, deli sandwiches with those little plastic swords holding them together: then at just the right moment you can pull one out, look at it, and remark: “Fine little blade. Maybe I’ll pick my teeth with it.” ?
Ten Bears,
Well, the fate of humanity does rest on Jon’s sexual life: it’s obvious that the lucky bachelorette* who just happens to have three dragons and a huge army will be more willing to join the only war that matters, if the KITN manages to win her affection. Jon absolutely must do his best and taking into account that he’s not a charmer type, I guess his clumsy courtesy will be hilarious to watch. Or on the contary, it may be frustrating and uneasy with the traditional gender roles being a bit reverse. I imagine a wibe of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. Anyway, Dany will be in the possition of power and it will be rather interesting to see how Jon is going to deal with that.
THIS. Yes yes yes yes. I mean damn – the guy has actually gotten shit done. Shit I may not always like, but I have to admire his success. I don’t want a stupid end for him either.
Ten Bears,
Yes, I served chicken with Ep1!!! We’ll be watching Ep2 tonight or tomorrow. I have an event to attend at the university, so it might be tomorrow. :/
I think she is just borrowing Cersei’s resting bitch face, along with her former hair. ?
Inga,
Jon does not need in any shape or form to romantically seduce Dany to gain her allyship… He only needs to convince her (and if he fails, luckily Davos will be by his side.)
Maybe Jon isn’t the Song of Ice and Fire. Maybe he and Danny meet, have a kid and that kid is the “song”. I know, I know, it is unlikely seeming what Rhaegar says in the books about his child, but I just get carried away with petty theories
Maybe Jon and Danny will die, but their “song” lives on as the bittersweet ending.
Not gonna happen, but still, humour me…
Uddane,
Is that Widows Wail that Jamie has stuck in his belt?
As the consensus seems to be “yes,” I have a question: When they were melting down Ice, wasn’t the mold for what became Widow’s Wail (Joffrey’s) much shorter than the one which yielded Oathkeeper?
keltia,
I just hope he renames that sword. “Widow’s Wail”, chosen by Joffrey, is pretty cheesy.
keltia,
Widow’s Wail is indeed much shorter, but of course, Jamie gave Oathkeeper to a much taller person. 🙂
Eilidh,
It actually Is a likely scenario, in the books both Dany and Jon lament that they wish they could hold their own child in their arms but believe they never will. All of Dany’s whole story line revolves around motherhood and her constantly thinking about it and since believing she will never have children thinking of the people she has freed as her children and her dragons. D&D stated Dany BELIEVES she can’t have children and in the books she bleeds at the end of the last book and tastes the same sweetness in her mouth as when the witch cursed her.
So Dany having a child is a massive possibility though whether both parents survive and raise their child, only one survives or Tyrion or Sansa raise that child on their behalf due to both parents being dead is another matter entirely
Wolfish,
Nikolaj is only an inch shorter than Gwendoline : ) And there’s something about Jaime’s machismo/pride that (at least in the past) would make him reluctant to carry a boy’s sword. Maybe we’re headed for a Widow’s Wail-Needle “Battle of the Little Swords.”
keltia,
Point taken about heights (they really did make her look taller than that, maybe because Jaime was injured)… But I really hope there’s no Needle-vs.-Widow’s Wail battle! I’m still holding out hope that Jaime will come to his senses before allowing Cersei to destroy every last bit of decency he has left.
It’s not THAT much shorter than Oathkeeper. They’re both still called/considered long swords. WW isn’t a short sword or long dagger by any means. Oathkeeper has a long blade
A Dornish Tyrell,
Speeking seriously, I do agree with you: Dany is a reasonable woman and Tyrion is primed to believe everything what Jon is going to say about the WW. However, it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that Jon will think that the Mother of Dragons won’t take the threat seriously and that seducing her would be the safest way to get her and her dragons on his side. Moreover, Jon will be fully aware that the Mother of Dragons is looking for an eligible bacheloor and understand how favorable such mariage would be to the North. So, I guess he will decide that charming Dany is his duty, but on the other hand I can see him higly highly frustrated about this, because charming a women to get hold on her posessions is unhonorable. So, if he decides to marry Dany “for the sake of the realm”, he will also assume that loving her is his duty, just like Ned assumed that loving Cat was his duty after marrying her. In other words, there won’t be love that “just happens”, it will develop step by step out of mutual respect, shared interests and values, and partly out of necessity. It may be similar to what Dany had with Khal Drogo, only this time she will be in the position of power.
If Jon had been developed as a womanizer and/or someone who knew that women could not say “no” to him, then this would seem possible. However, that hasn’t happened, and at this point, it’s too late to develop this side of Jon. (Character “guns” need to be hung just as much as do plot “guns”!)
I think that it’s going to be far simpler than this. Good-looking, charismatic, socially-conscious girl suffering from pangs of past-heartache and burdens of familial expectation meet good-looking, charismatic, socially-conscious boy suffering from pangs of past-heartache and burdens of familial expectation. That is a script that writes itself: the two of them will be finishing each other’s sentences within 15 minutes.
Have RomComs done it? Sure. So have serious romances. And so have serious stories that just had a romantic angle. Remember, they are at war: and war inflames passions; for example, WWI & WWII inspired great romances in reality as well as on literature or on screen. But “causes” also inspire boy-girl romance, as causes are inherently romantic in the classic sense of the word.
Now, there is the issue of will anybody believe Jon about the Walkers. However, that still has to be addressed for the North: it was pretty clear at the conclusion of last season that a lot of Northerners were not aware of this problem.
And.. *sniff*… he’s done it all for love…. Seriously, at this point, I think that LF is genuinely in love with Sansa. I think that it’s evolved in a weird fashion from his love for Cat, which would seem a bit weird and gross, but Westeros clearly is a world where 40 years old men frequently marry 18-year old women, so we cannot really hold that against him.
What will be interesting is how LF reacts to Daenerys. He seems to have totally left her out of his plans!
The “possibility” that “Jon will think the Mother of Dragons won’t take the threat seriously and that seducing her would be the safest way to get her and her dragons on his side” ?
—————-
Oh no. Please, no.
Jon has ascended to where he is now because of his valor and decency. Not because he’s a pretty boy who can seduce women. That would cheapen his character.
If anything, he’s accomplished what he has in spite of his looks, not because of them. (It’s been a running gag that he’s just a “pretty face” – see Craster, Orell.)
Like Tormund said in “Hardhome”, 5×8:
Karsi: You vouch for this man, Tormund?
Tormund: He’s prettier than both my daughters, but he knows how to fight. He’s young, but he knows how to lead.
If the show is gonna go the “seduction to save the world” route, I’d rather they go full on “She’s All That” mode and have Arya get a makeover, with makeup, new hairdo and slinky dress and descend the stairs while Sixpence None the Richer (or Ed Sheeran) plays in the background, and everyone’s jaws drop when they witness the transformation. Then Arya 2.0 could entice the Night King and LIttlefinger to their dooms.
The End.
(Yeah. I know this is silly, but Maisie Williams could pull it off.)
That may be true, and I think it would be despite his own intentions. I think Sansa began as being useful to advance his plans, a piece in his game. I never saw him loving anyone but Cat (or was it really just the idea of Cat?) But you could be right. His ‘pretty picture’ seemed a bit more…genuine?
Oh I can just see his expression regarding Daenerys – I’m guessing it’ll start with complete “Oh wtf….”
cuddlycrow,
Maybe she saw a ghost, the Hound.
maria,
Oh, I hope they “let [Littlefinger] go down idiotically.”
Like maybe from an infected cut from twirling his Snidely Whiplash mustache. Or falling off a ladduhh and dying from bleeding on the brain. Or
Sansa slicing his throat while saying “I told you not to trust me.” Or one of the birds he got for Robyn prying open its cage door and pecking his eyes out and tearing out his throat.
He does not deserve a glorious end.
Needless to say, I don’t like his character or his “plans.” Someone should’ve snuffed him out by now. (Yes, I’m looking at you Sansa.)
The S7 promo picture of Lyanna Mormont reminded me how satisfying it was when his latest “plan” to take control of the North by manipulating Sansa almost succeeded, but was thwarted by…. the 10 year-old Lady of Bear Island:
(From S6e10):
LF to Sansa:
“Who should the North rally behind?
A trueborn daughter of Ned and Catelyn Stark born here at Winterfell, or a motherless bastard born in the south?”
****
Lyanna Mormont: “I don’t care if he’s a bastard. Ned Stark’s blood runs through his veins. He’s my king, from this day until his last day!”
(Northern lords follow suit, rally around the “motherless bastard” and declare him King in the North, while LF pouts in the corner.)
Pigeon,
Nah. LF does not “love” Sansa. If you love a girl you cherish her and protect her virtue. You certainly don’t sell her to some stranger to be defiled, no matter what the price.
He said at the outset: his intention is to f-ck the Starks. He’s not motivated by “love.”
Inga,
All the things that you’ve mentioned, I see them more in Dany rather than in Jon. She knows she will have to marry someone for political reason in order to gain support from Westerosi nobility. That’s why she left Daario behind (as Tyrion told her, he is a liability.) At any rate, I see her proposing a marriage allience to this new King in the North (like she did with Hizdar.) Jon is much more concerned with the inminent war to put much effort in his pick-up artistry (which is next to nill.)
I agree with you, however, that if they ever get married, he’ll be an more than honourable husband. Same for her. They might have an Ned/Cat-like marriage (minus that lie.)
Ten Bears,
Pigeon,
I do think LF loves Sansa like he also loved Catelyn but it’s not a happy healthy kind of love, he loves himself more and his love for them is twisted. Even though he loved Catelyn his whole life he still helped put the events in place that killed the man she loved breaking her heart, if he had a healthy love for her he would of protected Ned but he didn’t.
So while I think LF does love Sansa, it’s not in the way any girl would want to be loved.
Wimsey,
It goes without saying that LF is in love with the power that Sansa represents, and is still in love, or what passes for love in his warped mind, with her mother. I’m hoping the writers remember, and I’m sure they will, that the one character on the show who truly loves Sansa in a romantic way is The Hound. Where they take that, if they choose to, and they’d be fools not to, could be quite interesting (and quite violent and bloody because hey it’s A Game of Thrones).
Caption to the Sam and Gilly pic: “Sam, it’s says here that we’re just characters in a series of books written by a chubby football fan from New Jersey. What’s a football?”
That’s pretty much how I’ve thought of it – and I don’t know if he ‘loved’ Cat at all or was simply obsessed with someone he couldn’t get.
Nah. You should know by now that Sansa will never get her pretty little hands dirty. She prefers people to do it for her and swear oaths to her and rescue her. She won’t kill him. Just like she couldn’t kill Ramsay. Oh, she very well may order someone else to do it. If Cersei has taught her anything, it’s how to smirk while others do her bidding. 🙂
And that’s all fine and good, isn’t it? I can’t stand her, but not everyone in the story can be a fighter in the physical sense.
Mel:
Ten Bears,
Pigeon,
I do think LF loves Sansa like he also loved Catelyn but it’s not a happy healthy kind of love, he loves himself more and his love for them is twisted. Even though he loved Catelyn his whole life he still helped put the events in place that killed the man she loved breaking her heart, if he had a healthy love for her he would of protected Ned but he didn’t.
So while I think LF does love Sansa, it’s not in the way any girl would want to be loved.
That’s pretty much how I’ve thought of it – and I don’t know if he ‘loved’ Cat at all or was simply obsessed with someone he couldn’t get.
Ten Bears:
maria,
Or Sansa slicing his throat while saying “I told you not to trust me.”
Nah. You should know by now that Sansa will never get her pretty little hands dirty. She prefers people to do it for her and swear oaths to her and rescue her. She won’t kill him. Just like she couldn’t kill Ramsay. Oh, she very well may order someone else to do it. If Cersei has taught her anything, it’s how to smirk while others do her bidding. ?
And that’s all fine and good, isn’t it? I can’t stand her, but not everyone in the story can be a fighter in the physical sense.
Considering how creeped out Rory McCann was by the mention of anything of the sort, I wouldn’t count on it. Remember too, Sansa still values status.
I wasn’t thinking about her nearly as much as I was thinking about El Hounderooni (there, I said it, it is now canon!). I just want the big guy to go out in a way that makes him happy, like protecting the nitwit redhead of his dreams. Dying whilst fighting alongside Arya would also be cool, but not as resonant.
I have to agree with this.
LF, like most southerners, does not really understand the North. One thing that comes up frequently on the show and in the books is that people in the South know little of what happens in the North, and tend to dismiss Northerners as borderline savages. There is a fan-fiction that LF has spies everywhere and is almost omniscient: but neither the books nor the show provide any real support for that; LF is well-informed about Kings Landing because of his brothels, but he’s in the dark where the North is concerned. I think that we’ll see that the same is true where Daeny is concerned.
Just once I’d like to hear my wife say those words. Then again she has no interest in the show, which might explain how we’ve been together for over 35 years. The cliché is absolutely true — opposites do attract. 😉
Anyone been following the Writers Guild strike? Seasons 7 and 8 could be delayed.
Caption to the photo of Jon Snow: “No, I am not grabbing my nads. It just so happens that I’m passing a kidney stone and am not grabbing my nads. Okay, maybe just a little. Look, I miss Ygritte, okay? Leave me alone!!”
This rings true for me. What doesn’t, really, is the concept that a proud, ambitious man like Petyr, once publicly humiliated, would have gone on carrying a torch for Cat for years afterward. His wanting to punish the Starks seems in keeping with his level of emotional development. But it would seem more in character for him to have persuaded himself – not too long after the duel with Brandon, and especially once his fortunes in the world started to rise exponentially – that Cat was unworthy of a man like him; that he’d been ‘slumming’ because he hadn’t known any better. I could see him setting his sights ‘higher’: trying to seduce Cersei, perhaps, or aiming for a match with Margaery. And once Dany showed up on the shores of Westeros, he’d set his cap for her. Whatever would enhance his status, as compensation for the stinging loss of face he’d suffered by throwing himself at Cat and being spurned.
But that’s not quite the character who was written, so I have to take GRRM’s word for what Littlefinger would have done!
I always thought that he and Brienne would be a fantastic and hilarious pair – Oh the bickering! He with begrudging admiration that she almost killed him, and she with that exasperated affection. Unfortunately, Brienne has too many contenders for her affection already…..
I haven’t read all the comments but what do you think Team Targ are looking at it their group photo? And do you think Arya might cross paths with Hot Pie at that Inn?
Jack Bauer 24,
For what it’s worth, my best friend has been a member of the Writer’s Guild for 15 years (which is nothing in “writer’s years” — according to him the average age of guild members is around 300 years) tells me that he doesn’t think there will be a strike. And he wants to strike.
LOL! That would be a first for television! Has any other series shown two right-handed stars fight a sword duel left-handed? Nikolaj has the reach on Maisie, but after six years she’s acquired some lefty agility and experience!
Wimsey, you are our Philospher King, and I tremble to disagree with you. But I concur with Ten Bears that Baelish loves only Baelish. As he’s repeatedly proclaimed, he wants everything. He has some warmth for Sansa and probably longs to shag her silly, some of which does indeed stem from his obsession with Cat. And with destroying the family that nearly killed him, his pride, and his love dream. Now Cat’s favorite daughter is a building block of his Chaotic gamble to gain the IT, but he had to sell her to Ramsay hoping it would produce the chaos he needed. Joffrey had said everyone was his to torment. . LF believes everyone is his to use. He has a plan B: use Cersei’s yearning for Sansa’s head on a spike and gain his reward once more from the Lions. Perhaps he even plans to woo Cersei. And Plan C or D? If the theory that Sansa is playing him is true and his Winterfell scheming goes pear-shaped, he won’t hesitate to have her killed. Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The littlefinger knows.
Kinkiest The Honeymooners fan fic ever! 😉
What’s scary though is that the vote to strike will be May 1st and if a deal isn’t reached, writers will literally walk on May 2nd. A lot of showrunners also produce as well as write…like Benioff and Weiss, so even though Season 7 has been written and filmed they are still in production. They can walk come May 2nd and Season 7 delayed. The last writers strike lasted over 3 months. They would also stop writing Season 8 scripts during this time.
I’m not hoping for a “glorious” end for Littlefinger, just one that works with who he is. As an example, see Tywin’s death which was anything but glorious, but also absolutely fitting.
The pilot script for GoT was actually delayed back in 2007 during the last writers strike.
Jack Bauer 24,
Interesting, especially considering the showrunners are also writers.
Pigeon,
LOL!
Pigeon,
I wouldn’t count on it either. The time to foreshadow any Sandor-Sansa hookup was in S6e2, but Brienne’s conspicuous omission of Sandor’s name (just telling Sansa Arya was with “a man”) suggested to me that the SanSan brigade will be disappointed.
By contrast, scenes with Jaqen and the Waif in S5 and S6 signaled that Arya has unresolved emotional business with Sandor.
He really doesn’t have that anymore (to the extent that he ever had it in the first place; the Valemen wouldn’t have gone along with that even had he tried it, so it would have cost him his power base). As he himself noted, Cersei now knows he stabbed her in the back. That bridge is thoroughly burned.
Jack Bauer 24,
If S7 scripts are done and S7 has been filmed, why would WGA strike delay S7?
One thing’s for sure, the candle budget for this show is through the roof.
Ten Bears,
Writers who are also producers are supposed to stop working in that capacity as well (though whether they actually do varies, so it would depend on how committed the showrunners are to their union).
Doesn’t work.
Wimsey,
A Dornish Tyrell,
I would disagree about the hanged guns. The gun that Dany is looking for political marriage has definitely been hanged. The gun that deep in her heart she longs for true love and that it makes her relationship with men frustrated has been hanged as well: she treated Hizdahr like shit, she treated Daario like shit, and I don’t expect her to treat Jon any better in the beginning. Well, maybe understanding that the KITN is the most appropriate match will smothen things a bit, but on the other hand, the fact that he will be so appropriate may produce even more frustrations. Let’s be frank: Jon is a man a woman would prefer to marry for love, not for political benefits, and therefore realisation that, if the marriage happens, it will be for political benefits and not for love may cast a heavy shadow on the relationship.
As for Jon, the gun has been hanged that he has a very serious attitude to potential romances and yes – he is not a womanizer. However, in this case he will be pretty much aware that winning Dany’s affection will be a matter of life or death; so, he will have to find a way to charm her and taking into account that Jon has never tried to charm a woman intentionally it will be a quite challenge to him. Especially having in mind that Dany might be quite intimidating in the beginning.
Of course, everything said has been said about the initail setup. As their relations progress, both Jon and Dany will find out that loving each other is much easier than they thought. But that will take an episode or two or even ten and nothing wrong about that: love is complicated. Probably, if Jon and Dany met without the inevitability of political marriage hanging over them, things would be easier for them, but less interesting to watch.
Jack Bauer 24,
Why would season 7 be delayed,its already finished filming long ago,lol ?
Sean C.,
It’s the editing people and the vfx people who are doing the most work on the post production part,well i guess the scoring too,usually once a season is filmed,the writers and showrunners have very minor involvement on the post production,not to mention that they have to prepare for the next season . I mean sure,they are going to review the finished product and make changes if needed like cutting some scenes that aren’t needed but other than that i don’t see how is a writing strike going to affect a production part .
UUUGGGHHH, this has been one of the most difficult plotlines for me to reconcile between the books and the show. I don’t think they’re going to do it on the show, for the simple reason that the actors’ age difference makes it creepy AF. In the books, one can logically deduce that the Hound is younger, and even though the age difference is still about 15 years, it’s within a historical context where that really wouldn’t be, er, unsavory. But given that the age difference between the actors is more than 25 years, and their relationship thus far has been portrayed a tad differently than in the books, it makes that plotline a tad more difficult.
LMAO! It took a season and a half for Saner Half to finally warm up to it (largely because it takes him a long time to warm up to anything that isn’t his idea, but I trust you not to tattle on me). We’re up to S4, Ep2, which means that tonight… we watched the Purple Wedding! It was quite amusing.
“I love him! He’s such a great actor! I just love to hate him! He’s the best young actor on the show, other than Arya!”
[five minutes later]
“He died so well!”
Pretty much what Sean C said. May 2nd will be a “black out” and writers are supposed to literally walk off set. Benioff and Weiss still have a lot of editing to do in these last couple of months before July 16th and all work will come to a halt May 2nd if the strike happens. Whatever cut they have at right now would be no where near finished, so a delay is likely. Not only that, but writing for Season 8 will come to a complete stop, which will postpone Season 8 filming and production, which would cause a Season 8 delay as well.
This is just unfortunate news all around.
If no deal is reached by May 2nd, Benioff and Weiss will walk off set and Season 7 will be on hiatus.
And I think they are pretty committed. At least i know Cogman is because he’s tweeted about it.
Catspaw Assassin,
P.S.: I’ve thought (because I think about such things, since I’m a freakazoid) that, should the showrunners “go there” with Sansa and the Hound, the only way to do it without raising all sorts of red flags would be for Sansa to be the one to choose him. As I noted earlier, only two men outside of her own family and retainers have ever protected her: the Hound and Tyrion. It might make sense, even for non-book readers, for the young woman who went south with naïve fantasies of handsome knights and colorful silks to still choose someone she perceives as a protector… but, having learned in the most terrible ways that handsome does not equal “good,” and protectors may be burned men or dwarfs, she might ultimately let go of the idea that physical beauty is necessary for the love she has always dreamed of. (Mind you, I would have no trouble boffing either Tyrion or the Hound, but I’m a coarser sort than sweet, refined Sansa.) Sansa must make an alliance with another house; and as much as Dany would like to “break the wheel,” the Martinverse is certainly not going to magically fast-forward a millennium or two. Given her experiences with Joffrey and Ramsay, she may well put her foot down, refuse to marry a man she has not chosen herself, and take both love and a foothold in the south with Sandor.
As for Tyrion… They like each other. They do. Tyrion’s decency towards both Jon and Sansa should ultimately play an important role towards the cementing of an alliance between Dany and the North. But that marriage was dead in the water on Day 1.
Wolfish,
My bet is that Sansa will eventually choose Tyrion (and Tyrion admires her much more than he is aware of). Sandor may be an option too, and Sansa mght have a rather difficult choice, but I think she will eventually start enjoying the big game and Tyrion who likes the game too will become a more appropriate game-partner for her, than Sandor. Besides that, Margeary has planted that seed in Sansa’s head, when she said that Tyrion might surprise her. And there are all those historical parallels between Sansa and Elisabeth of York, etc.
http://showsnob.com/2017/04/21/games-thrones-writers-strike-wga/
There is no set to “walk off” from. Season seven is already written and shot. Currently the episodes are finishing post-production work and D&D are working currently in their role as producers, not writers.
If there was any chance a strike would delay season 7, HBO would have delayed their announcement of a premiere date.
As of May 2nd, however, if there is a strike all work on season 8 (which they have started already) will be put on hiatus indefinitely.
Am I the only one who thinks Lyanna Mormont is annoying? Everyone seems to think she is great but I think she’s a waste of screen time. With 13 or so episodes left I am not looking forward to seeing more of her.
Benioff and Weiss are still editing the episodes and therefore would stop ALL WORK on Season 7 beginning May the 2nd. Post production is no where near finished. They will be editing up to the last minute and continue to edit even while the season is airing. They were editing Battle of the Bastards while Season 6 was airing. CGI work is no where near finished and the final cut of episodes will be worked on for the next couple of months. If a strike happsns, the final cut won’t be finished until well after July 16th causing a delay.
If Season 7 was ready to air right now we would not be waiting another 11 weeks for it.
Edit featured isn’t working for me, so I’ll this here https://www.google.com/amp/www.vox.com/platform/amp/culture/2017/4/19/15265700/wga-strike-writers-guild-hollywood
Showrunners are supposed to stop producing as well. The link you provided just assumes the season is safe because it is written and filmed, but production is far from over. Benioff and Weiss will stop producing on May 2nd if there is a strike and the entire Summer TV schedule could be effected.
Jad,
i think you are right, because three weeks is 21 days’ which is two month – and two month before the premiere the first trailer is released. you should be a detective.
Anybody thinking that Sansa will end up with The Hound is kidding themselves, I’m afraid.
Sansa had her chance to ride off into the sunset with Sandor and she turned it down. Now she’s Lady of Winterfell and has a greater responsibility to her House. Marrying into little old House Clegane ain’t going to cut it.
Not that she’s likely to want to marry out of choice anytime soon anyway. But if she has to it’ll be to somebody of strategic/political importance.
Tyrion is a possibility. But in all honesty I doubt that Tyrion would be down for that.
He didn’t want to marry her the first time and clearly expressed his discomfort with the situation, not least because of her obvious discomfort.
Tyrion doesn’t want to be with somebody who doesn’t want to be with him. And I think he will be happy that she is free to find a match that she’s more comfortable with. So unless there is a particularly pressing need for them to re-marry, I don’t think Tyrion would even entertain the idea, let alone Sansa.
No, if Sansa is to marry before the show ends it will be to somebody new. There are still a few viable candidates out there.
Wolfish,
So Saner Half is a disciple of the Many-Faced Goddess…and you’re up to S4e2…
I hope you will let us know Saner Half’s reactions to:
• Arya’s skewering of Rorge;
• Arya’s hysterical laughter outside the Bloody Gate;
• Brienne & Pod vs. Arya & The Hound – especially Sandor’s admission “Aye, that’s what I’m doing” (watching over Arya);
• Arya leaving mortally wounded Sandor to die, ignoring his pleas to “kill me!”;
• S5, Arya insisting to Jaqen “I wanted him to suffer; I hated him!”, and Jaqen hitting her because “A girl lies. To me, to the Many-Faced God. To herself.”
• S6: The Waif (kind of from out of nowhere) asks A Girl: “Tell me about The Hound”, and A Girl admits Arya Stark did … and did not want him to die: Yes, she was confused.
• Arya taking out Meryn F-cking Trant [maybe rewatching S1 Syrio-Arya scenes to prepare]
• Sandor lets down his guard, tells Arya story about Gregor burning his face, lets her clean his wound ?;
and of course when you reach the end of S6:
• The “serving girl” surprise for Walder Frey
King Ragnar,
I thought the scene at Bear Island was absolutely horrible. One of the worst scenes on the show, ever, as far as I’m concerned.
They shouldn’t have left her to try to carry the scene alone.
The King in the North scene she was fine. But I’m not interested in seeing them overuse her novelty factor.
If she has a few lines as part of a group scene, that’s fine by me. But give her too much material and it has the potential to damage the credibility of future scenes, in my opinion.
We’ll have to wait and see.
Inga,
Well, Tyrion did have that wedding night scene where he told Sansa he wouldn’t have sex with her unless and until she wanted to; she replied “what if I never do?”; and he lifted his wine glass and said:
“And so my watch begins.”
That was what – 4 or 5 years ago? I’d say it’s about time his watch is ended. ☺️
King Ragnar,
If you’re not a troll or a Russian bot, then yes, King Ragnar, you’re probably the only one who thinks Lyanna Mormont is annoying. The showrunners loved Bella Ramsay, her cast mates were blown away by her, and the fandom here voted her Best Guest Actress by a landslide.
King Ragnar,
My apologies, Your Grace. It looks like Ramsay’s 20th Good Man agrees with you. So you are not alone.
She could be angry at LF, at the moment I think she’s angry with Jon for leaving her alone with him.
King Ragnar,
I too find her annoying and I hope they don’t give her more time just because they love her because we will be having only 13 episodes.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I agree, I see little possibility of SanSan happening, thankfully. I have always hated that pairing. The thought of a grown man having feelings for a 11 year old girl has always creeped me out, inspite of the fact that the story is supposed to be based on a medieval setting.
I don’t know if there are any viable candidates for her to marry on the show though. If she does end up marrying anyone, I hope it will be some unknown Lord or something like that, which will enable her to carry on the Stark line.
Dare I hope for a battle scene with Brienne and Tormund fighting side by side?
Also, clearly Arya sees Hot Pie (who has been secretly feeding Nymeria behind the Inn) and is telling him with her eyes to keep cool and not give her away.. ?
tiny direwolf,
Of course: All narrative roads lead to Hot Pie.
(And if my in-progress tinfoil theory about AA/TPTWP comes true, it will be Hot Pie who supplied the final piece to the puzzle.)
PS Are we sure the annotations on the paper Gilly is looking at in the promo picture do not contain the ingredients for Hot Pie’s kidney pie gravy?
ghost of winterfell,
About Sansa’s fate:
If I were a Vegas oddsmaker, my opening betting line* would be:
• Sansa is killed this season 3:1
• “Nissa Nissa” is revealed
to be a slightly jumbled anagram of “Sansa Sansa”,
and consistent with the
prophecy she sacrifices herself
for the greater good in S8
….. 5:1
• Sansa becomes the Night 6:1
King’s concubine or queen
• Sansa winds up with Tyrion 8:1
• Sansa winds up with 15:1
Sandor
• LF takes the Iron Throne 50:1
with Sansa by his side
•. Sansa winds up with Jon 100:1
* See “Malley No-Show”, in the Clint Eastwood movie “The Gauntlet” had fun with this concept that there are betting lines on everything imaginable.
I know! I know! [jumping up & down w/ hand in air like Hermione Granger]
::Direwolf-shaped cookies are the long-lost secret ingredient in the forging of Valyrian steel::
Edit/correction: I couldn’t figure out how to make “columns” in the text box coincide with the posted version. Sorry about that. My “odds” are all over the place.
I think I’m usually on the same page with you Ten Bears, but to be completely honest, I wasn’t awestruck by Lyanna/Bella. I don’t think she was annoying by any means but I really thought the gushing went way overboard. I do think she did a fine job but her role was small and she didn’t need to do anything special. She didn’t need to convey a range of emotions or anything, just deliver a few lines of dialogue acting older than she is to be heard as the Lady of a House.
I just think a large portion of the fandom was excited for the Little Bear, so when she did a good job, even though it was limited, the praise went into overdrive. I’m sure viewer only fans also thought her great because it was a little girl in an uncommon position standing up to adults.
The praise for a while was nearly reaching season one Maisie level and to me there isn’t a comparison. That is to say that we can’t compare because Bella didn’t need to do anything like Maisie. Even so, they struck gold with Maisie for Arya though so comparing to her is absurd imo at this point. Even before Maisie said a single line in episode one she had already displayed a spectrum of emotion on her face alone that was unmistakable. Boredom and dislike (of sewing) – yearning (to be with the boys) – amazement with herself, mock boasting and glee (after shooting the bullseye) – excitement (for the king’s caravan), up to “Arya,” and then curiousity, “where’s the imp?” All of that was conveyed with just her eyes and face. It’s a gift she has that not everyone does. There’s another actress playing a character in Westeros that has like three or four facial expressions for instance.
Majority spoke on our guest actress voting so I realize I’m in the minority when it comes to who won it. Like I mentioned, she did a fine job, but she only had to deliver a handful of lines in two scenes with little acting range necessary. I’m not saying Bella can’t be good or isn’t good, just that there isn’t much to go on yet. Essie Davis was my vote byw
I would give this far worse odds, considering that Nissa Nissa has never never been mentioned on the show.
In fact, I’m a bit baffled by all the book fans who obsess over who Jon’s (or Dany’s or whoever’s) Nissa Nissa is going to turn out to be. In an alternate universe stuffed to the gills with false conventional wisdom, not every aspect of every ancient legend or prophecy is going to be replicated in the ‘present.’ If a magic sword really must be plunged into some woman’s breast (and I sincerely hope not, because misogynists don’t need another sop thrown to them in this bloody saga) in order to have its powers fully activated, it will most likely happen in some sort of very ironic, perhaps even accidental way.
ghost of winterfell,
I’ve never seen what others see between Sansa and The Hound either. Like you, I find the age difference problematic enough on its own,even accounting for the fact that it wouldn’t be so much of an issue in Westeros.
As far as I’m concerned The Hound’s relationship with Sansa was only ever a narrative tool to subvert Sansa’s naive understanding of chivalry, honour and killing and expose the deceptiveness of appearances. Her education in these matters continued with her marriage to Tyrion.
But I don’t think the viewer was ever supposed to consider them a viable partnership or cling to the possibility of them ending up together.
In my opinion, her rejection of his offer to take her away with him during the Battle of the Blackwater was ultimately meant to be seen as a rejection of him, despite the fact that her opinion of him had obviously softened.
The lessons learnt from her relationships with The Hound and Tyrion are meant to stand her in good stead when choosing a partner in future, or should she face another marriage to a less than ideal suitor.
Inga,
Hmmm… Good points. And since you’re the medievalist, you know things I don’t.
(opens new tab, Googles “Elizabeth of York” to refresh memory)
Ten Bears,
Will do! He loved it when, after some hesitation, she finally pulled it together, killed Polliver, and took Needle back.
Ten Bears,
I’ve thought of all these possibilities as well, which means that either a) you’ve warged into me, or b) GoT fans are like the Borg.
Has anyone else noticed that Tyrion is wearing the Ned Stark style doublet?
Agreed. My theatre-major son actually squirmed at her first scene, thought she came off stiff and awkward (as do most child actors, to be fair). She amused me, but I did think that the outpouring of praise was overblown. It kind of felt a bit like, ‘Wow, that dog can dance on its hind legs’ to me.
I’m certainly willing to give the actress time to develop, though. Let’s see if she demonstrates greater range and nuance this season.
You’re right about SanSan. It was a real possibility in the books but not on the show. In either case, probably that train has left the station. Tyrion is still viable. Sansa’s a bit more sensible than she used to be and able to see worth in an ugly person. I doubt she’d ever truly love him, but it could be a contented union though I think he deserves better. There’s also the possibility Robin Arryn may have matured into a more capable, less annoying person without his mum around to milk his insecurities. Once Tormund is totally rebuffed by Brienne, Sansa and he could get together. She’d like bringing up tall, strong, ginger babies. And isn’t Lord Glover a widower?
The Little Bear is fun, but I found her rather one-note. If she doesn’t evolve this season, IMO she won’t have earned her place among the 15 photos.
And Ten Bears,
I think it’s a < 3% margin of error 😉 GMTA, no?
I agree with all your points about the show Sansa/Hound relationship except for this one. I interpreted her rejection of his offer as inability to be decisive or think for herself. No, she doesn’t have any romantic feelings for him; she doesn’t have any romantic feelings for Ser Dontos, either, but allows herself to be dragged away from the Purple Wedding, no questions asked. The differences between how each man handled her are telling. Sandor gave her the choice; he asked her if she wanted to go. Dontos physically wrested her away and gave her an order: “You must come with me now!”
Unlike Arya, who learns very quickly how to take decisive action for her own (and others’) good, Sansa simply doesn’t know how to operate in the world unless someone has a plan for her and tells her how to get from Point A to Point B. She had a pretty good idea of how her life would proceed in King’s Landing if either a) Tyrion won the battle or b) Stannis won the battle. She had no idea how it would proceed if she simply took off with the Hound. And ultimately, the unknown of that scenario, even with a man she knew wouldn’t hurt her, was more frightening to her than the known of Stannis winning, and the very real possibility that she would simply be married off in yet another strategic alliance. In short, having to think for herself was far more foreign to her than simply being told what to do. And that, of course, is one of the most fundamental differences between her and Arya, and why each sister has survived in her own respective situation far longer than either would have if their places had been switched.
GAH, I didn’t mean to write a short essay.
If Jon really is in the crypts in that photo I can imagine a situation in which he just went there to pay a visit to Rickon/Ned/Robb. He then glances at Lyanna’s statue quickly, but then feels a strange pull towards it and thus looks at it again, not sure why he is so drawn to it, maybe even taking a hesitant step towards it. After a while he shakes it off and turns around and walks out of the crypts.
And everyone watching that scene are like “Nooo, Jon, she’s your mom!!”
Wolfish,
According to Sophie, Sansa didn’t go with the Hound because she didn’t trust him (which is confusing since the whole scene is building to her saying he won’t hurt her, but then, I think all the changes the show made to that plotline rendered it totally inert, so that’s not terribly surprising; in the book, it’s pretty damn obvious why she doesn’t go with him).
Clob,
I think some people were so thrilled with the concept of this badass little Lady talking sass and holding her own in Westerosi society that they overlooked the acting altogether.
The scene at Bear Island is clunky and awkward and I blame the writers/director for that. They should’ve given Lyanna’s advisors a line or two, to take some of the weight of the scene off Bella Ramsey’s shoulders, like with Maester Luwin in the scenes where Bran was hosting local noblemen.
The fact that she won Best Guest Actress ahead of Essie Davis just goes to show how hype overrode what actually occurred on-screen.
OMG, “milk his insecurities.” I’m dying here!
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Whatever problems the Bear Island scene has, I don’t think it’s to do with Ramsey (the writing for Jon and Sansa in that scene is flat-out bad). She’s quite capable with the material there.
On the larger issue of Lady Lyanna, I would agree with people who say she’s a one-note character, but it’s a fun one-note, and she’s been sparingly used thus far. If they’re going to give her more screentime, though, then they need to show more dimension to her (it would be nice, in particular, to emphasize that she really is just a kid at the end of the day) or else it gets old (a mistake the show has made with other popular minor characters before).
That is entirely on the show writers, IMO, because they wanted the escape to be a surprise. In the books, she is more proactive, plotting with Dontos beforehand, sneaking out at night to meet him etc.
Also, the problem is not that Sansa can’t think for herself, she obviously can. But she uses the ideas of an ideal Westerosi society from the songs and stories of chivalry and knighthood as a framework and has difficulties when things do not fit into these narratives.
I don’t remember exactly, but at one instance, she thinks of Jon as a “black knight of the Wall”, so he could fit into the framework.
Ultimately, I think, one goal for the character will be to put those narratives aside and through her own experiences, find some new coping mechanisms that are much more useful in such a world.
Hmmm. As others have noted, Sophie sometimes seems to misunderstand her own character’s actions and motivations. I’m sticking to my story, dammit!!!
This is embarrassing, but I don’t remember if he asked her to go with him in the book. I only remember
On another note, I just checked my email and found a notification from Twitter: “Jóhannes Haukur liked your Tweet!”
LEM LEMONCLOAK LIKED MY TWEET. My day is done, and it’s not even noon yet!
In the book he shows up in her room drunk and covered in blood and asks her to go with him, she says no (quite understandably, given his unstable behaviour and how scary he’s acting at the moment; which is quite different from the show version, who isn’t unstable at all), at which point he flips out and draws a knife on her, she calms him with a song, and then he flees before she opens her eyes. The show version where they have a quiet conversation and then he turns around and leaves with her watching is totally different.
The point of the book scene, in my opinion, emphasizes that Sansa’s gentleness and good heart has had a positive impact on the Hound (her rejection of his childish nihilism is vital in his progressing beyond that bankrupt ideology), but he’s still too wild to be the champion she needs at that point (Dontos, who she’s working with at that point, is too mild, conversely, as she herself notes).
Wolfish,
I agree with all all of that.
Of course, I’m also one of those that thinks book-Sansa (so far) has been more of a portal character for the important non-pov characters surrounding her. Save the arguments people as I’ve heard them before.
Sean C.,
She WAS a fun side character to have. Readers wanted to see her and we got her. Like people have mentioned though, she shouldn’t be overly used or story manufactured for her simply because of that. Don’t quote me on that if she has a scene in S7 where she is incredible. I really don’t expect anything other than an advisory voice for Jon though.
Ten Bears,
Lol yeah Nissa Nissa is a near perfect anagram to Sansa Sansa, but since Sansa has never called herself Sansa Sansa, I would give lower odds to her getting Nissa Nissa’d 🙂 .
Personally I don’t think there will be any Nissa Nissa sacrifice on the show or even in the books.
I like that you give higher odds to LF ending up on the Iron Throne with Sansa by his side than to Jonsa!
I would also give high odds to her surviving this whole thing.
Vally,
Excellent points all; I suppose I should have clarified that Sansa cannot think outside of the very narrow framework of her favorite childhood songs and stories. And, following on Sean C.’s comments to which I responded,
This might be interpreted as a turning point for her (albeit one unrecognized by Sansa herself), and the sort of nuanced development that cannot be as effectively carried through on a TV show with such a sprawling cast and so many storylines to tie together.
Oh, and I forgot.. My name is Vally, and I am also slightly annoyed by how they wrote the Lyanna Mormont character and the Bear Island scene 🙂
For me, she reminds me too much of some of those kids from 90s Sit Coms with the zingy one liners, those sassy little boss children characters. Cannot stand them.
And sorry if I come off as grumpy (I have a cold), but that Bear Island scene also made me aware of the fact that I am very much over the whole ‘Davos saves the day by talking sense’ schtick.
I think I would have preferred it, had they used those scenes for character progression of the two protagonists instead of showcasing a tertiary character.
Good analysis, methinks. Training women to be passive and compliant does not serve them well in preparing for real life. It’s scarcely less prevalent now than in medieval times, alas.
Sean C.,
What I hadn’t remembered was whether or not he had asked her to come with him. I remembered everything else.
I found the book version of events to be both more disturbing and more tender than the show’s; the bits with which song she wound up singing (in my response to Vally) and what she winds up doing with the cloak are very telling. I do agree with you about her gentleness effectively combatting his nihilism, but I think his effect on her is equally important. As I’ve noted here and elsewhere, I do wonder if she has consciously realized yet that the only men who have seen her as Sansa the person, not just Sansa Stark the asset, and protected her to some extent are men the world views as monsters.
I know it’s a matter of very polarizing discussion in some quarters, but I never thought, reading the passage, that Sandor was actually going to hurt her. I pitied him, wanting a tender word or song so desperately that, not receiving it willingly, he took it at swordpoint. (And before the howls of protest begin, no, I’m not justifying it. And given what Sansa does afterwards, if you haven’t read it please spare me the outrage.)
Clob,
Don’t get me wrong: There is no comparison between Maisie Williams and Bella Ramsay. Maisie’s acting in the 3-minute scene in S1e2 (from Nymeria “helping” her pack to jumping into Jon’s arms and naming the sword he just gave her) was better than any rousing speech Bella Ramsay delivered, though I still thought Bella was really good.
Firannion,
Well, the way I see it these purported “prophecies” are based on a few fragments of historical fact, but embellished, revised, slanted, sugarcoated and given a religious reinterpretation over the centuries so that their origins would be unrecognizable. “Facts” become legends, legends become myths, and myths become fairy tales.
And yes, I know the “Nissa Nissa” thing isn’t in the show. I haven’t read the books yet, but this aspect of the book “prophecy” has been discussed here so often that I couldn’t help but wonder about the jumbled anagram similarity to Sansa (especially after the transmutation of “Hold the Door” to “Hodor”).
I’ll throw that theory back into the tinfoil pile, and revise the next “betting line” accordingly.
And they also won’t be able to put out a trailer or have a red carpet premiere with the writers strike.
Wolfish,
I don’t think Sansa’s indecisive. I think that she tended to make the mistake of choosing the “safe” option, or that which appealed to her, over taking a chance.
She does the same when faced with the choice between remaining in King’s Landing and marrying Loras or escaping with Littlefinger. Loras is the safe and appealing option.
At the Purple Wedding there is no safe option.
Although, when she does take a chance when faced with a choice, having been coaxed into doing so by Littlefinger, it backfires spectacularly and she ends up in Ramsay’s clutches.
I think that if choosing to go with The Hound had appealed to her, particularly romantically, then that’s the choice she would have made. If, for example, Ser Loras had been the one promising to whisk her away from the city then she probably would have gone with him.
So I think the fact that she rejects The Hound’s offer can definitely be seen as a rejection of any romantic side to their relationship.
ghost of winterfell,
I like it if they could introduce Ned Dayne some how, as a passing recruit or as a young man wanting to help save the world.
Even though he’s talking to Arya in book I always felt he be perfect for Sansa, and Arya gets Gendry.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Perhaps we should agree to disagree. As Vally noted, Sansa “uses the ideas of an ideal Westerosi society from the songs and stories of chivalry and knighthood as a framework and has difficulties when things do not fit into these narratives.” Loras is safe and appealing because he’s both a) the incarnation of her knightly fantasies (save for the sword-swallower bit, which she’s far too naïve to deduce), and b) she knows exactly what would be expected of her. Had Loras been the one “promising to whisk her away from the city,” he would also have been promising marriage and a seat at Highgarden, a life she had always fantasized about because it fits the framework of her beloved songs and stories. The Hound, on the other hand, doesn’t have all his ducks in a row, so to speak. The reasons for a lack of romantic attraction are not only physical (age, gruffness, that big ol’ scar), but also material: he doesn’t have his own castle to take her to, and she still can’t think outside of that framework. Winterfell might be “home” (although at this point, she still isn’t missing it as much as Arya is), but she would have been returning to another unknown. Sansa doesn’t like unknowns. I don’t think she would have ever run away with a troubadour, no matter how handsome, for the same reasons.
I am enjoying this discussion, though. 🙂
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I’m really glad I’m not the only one who noticed the stark differences between how the child-Bran and child-Lyanna scenes were handled with their respective advisors. I love the character, but did think that her single-handed firmness in that situation beggared belief. (I’m already anticipating Saner Half’s annoyance when we get to it.)
Wolfish,
No “Gah!” necessary. That was a great “essay.”
Sandor offered to do what Ned completely botched: get his daughter out of what Ned himself had described as “a dangerous place” even before he discovered that all three “Baratheon” children were really Jaime’s. *
(Notice that when Sandor was waiting in Sansa’s room the night of the Battle of the Blackwater and offered to take her home – she was clutching the doll Ned had given her.)
Good point you made about Sansa apparently needing people to tell her what to do, and being unable or unwilling to make (the right) choices on her own.
It almost made me wish Sandor had clocked her on her head, slung her over his shoulder and carried her off – like he did with Arya to prevent her from running into the Twins and certain death during the Red Wedding.
* I still don’t understand why Ned didn’t get Arya and Sansa far away from the “zone of danger” – and confirm and re-confirm they were safe and sound – BEFORE he confronted Cersei.
Can anybody enlighten me?
Sean C.,
Also not going on by what Sophie said but with the show Sansa knew at the time she left the hold fast Stannis was winning and knocking down the door, hence in her mind she was safer with in the walls of her room then with a drunk and wounded Sandor.
Ten Bears,
Per book, he basically he could not use his children’s safety from keeping him from doing what his honor dictated, namely warn Cersei and telling her his plans when Robert got back.
Big mistake, Big, Huge!
I see the Baby Bear Backlash is in full swing.
Not to worry. I’m sure the GRRM Reaper has already planned a shocking death for her.
Grail King,
I understand the misguided “honor” thing. I just don’t understand why he didn’t get his OWN children out of Dodge before warning Cersei to get her children out of town before the s-it hit the fan.
If I can filch from (and probably misquote) Donald Rumsfeld and Robert McNamara, there are the unknowns you know about, and the unknowns you don’t know about; then there’s also the “fog of war” where anything can happen despite the best preparation.
Ned had to realize a s-itstorm would erupt once he confronted Cersei. As an experienced soldier and as a parent, he’d have to foresee that you can never know the exact contours of that sh-tstorm, which is why you get your loved ones out of the way so they don’t become collateral damage.
Agree. Hoster Tully (and Cat) rejected Petyr for being an unacceptable match, for challenging Brandon to a duel, and then for impregnating Lysa.
Petyr was obsessed with never being poor again. Status was everything, because it brought acceptability and wealth as insulation against his mean upbringing in the Fingers. Why remind anyone of his disgrace? The fact that he is still carrying a torch for Cat shows how warped and stuck in childish emotions he is. He can’t have what he wants, so he will thwart the grownups. The actions he has done and will do because of his fixation on Cat may be his poetical undoing at his end.
Or mayhaps the bittersweet is that Petyr lives to connive again while others are maimed and die.
Jack Bauer 24,
I think worrying to much haha XD
Season 7 is not getting delayed :p
Ten Bears,
At the time he confronted Cersei, Robert was off hunting and he was going to tell Robert once he returned. Once Robert returned, it would be impossible for Cersei and the children to leave.
The only reason Ned failed was because Cersei got ridiculously lucky in that her “get Robert drunk[er than usual] and hope a boar kills him” plan (if it even deserves to be called that) actually worked.
Ten Bears,
He did think he was getting them out of the way; he had already made plans for their passage to (White Harbor?) when he was arrested. But your point is definitely taken about why he didn’t get them to safety first. Of course, their very absence would have raised red flags…
UUUGGGHHH, poor, honorable Ned.
If HBO wasn’t entirely confident that D&D would deliver season 7, they would NOT have announced a premiere date, they would have delayed the announcement (similar situations happened in 2007, the last WGA strike.) Everyone knew the WGA contract was up, so given that an announcement was made, HBO must have checked and cleared this with D&D. As the article you provided stated, not all showrunners stopped production work in the last strike.
LMAO!!! I always wondered about that too. I thought she should have at least slipped some milk of the poppy into the wine, to render the “plan” a tad more believable…
Yes. The Hound spoke reality to Sansa, and she needed (needs) to see through her fantasies and see reality instead. La vie en rose has brought Sansa nothing but inescapable misery.
This is most certainly a minority opinion, given overall reaction to that scene both among casual fans and the rabid fandom.
Why is choosing the Tyrells over Littlefinger a mistake? They both want her for political purpose, of course, but Littlefinger is a supervillain who has brought her nothing but grief over the years; pivoting to a less malevolent option is the smarter move on her part, arguably.
And as you note, the one time in the show that Sansa has opted to take a risk (a risk involving Littlefinger) it was a catastrophic mistake, and the “safe” play was clearly smarter (assuming she even had a choice, which the show has kind of waffled on in retrospect).
Clob,
As long as we’re talking about child actresses…
You wrote that “they struck gold with Maisie for Arya.”
In April, 2011, before the premiere of GoT, Martin gave an interview to Time Magazine. The first topic that came up was the casting of the child actors. Here’s an excerpt.
Excerpt from GRRM Time interview, 4-15-11
Martin: “The child actors were the hardest to fill because we looked at literally hundreds for the three major children’s roles. I mean, most child actors. Well you know, you see these kids and they’re kids, they’re not actors. Their triumph is that they’ve memorized the lines. And mommy and daddy are very proud that they’ve memorized the lines, but that’s all.
And then you’ve got the other extreme. You’ve got some kid whose obviously been told by mommy and daddy or by their school drama coach that part of acting is you have to emote. So those kids go to the other extreme and they emote all over the place, they’re rolling their eyes and they’re grimacing and they’re really going way over the top for everything and it’s completely unnatural.
So you watch all this stuff and you reach a point where you’re just ready to despair and say, ‘this can’t be done here’ because most child actors—a lot of child actors out there are in sitcoms. And their role in sitcoms is to mug and look cute, you know.
Our kids have actual dramatic roles where they have to deal with grief and loneliness and anger and a lot of very adult stuff. [I thought] ‘my God, how the hell, are we going to do this’, you know? But then you find that one in a hundred, or one in a thousand that suddenly… ‘oh my God, thank God, this is great!’ And Maisie Williams, who plays Arya, was one of those. I mean, just from the moment we saw her audition, I knew she was, she was our Arya…”
*****
King Ragnar,
I think Lyanna Mormont is a fun character, but vastly overrated by a large part of the fandom.
Jack Bauer 24,
Lol,no,i’m pretty sure HBO won’t care about D&D’s feelings on the matter when they are in the bussiness of making money,if they aren’t willing to work on the editing i’m sure they could find some guys willing to work for peanuts and finish it .
Ramsay's 20th Good Man,
I mostly agree with you. However I would frame it in the sense of risk-taking behavior. While Arya is a great risk taker, Sansa is not. Most of the choices Sansa’s taken are what she considered the safest: staying in KL when Stannis was about to invade the city made much more sense to her than running away with Sandor, the deserter (let’s remember the scene where Cersei is informed about some people trying to flee KL during the war and she ordered them to be excecuted and their heads mounted on spikes). Similarly, marrying Loras instead of eloping with LF made much more sense to her: it would have been an “honourable” way to leave KL (she was the disgraced daughter of a traitor after all.) Not only she would marry a handsome lord from a powerful House but she also be living in Highgarden, far away from the hands of the Lannisters… Thus marrying Loras would have provided her: a honourable way out, restoration of her status as a respected Lady, and protection from the Lannisters.
Of course we know those choices ended up being terrible bad ones… but only because we had much more information than her: for example, we knew of Tywin’s plan to thwart Vary’s and Olenna’s plans.
Ten Bears,
One of the things that drives me batshit-crazy in many American productions, compared to many productions from other parts of the world, is the tendency towards over-emoting and “cuteness.” I think Saner Half’s love for Maisie Williams stems in large part from his unfamiliarity with non-American work and, hence, non-American child actors and portrayals of childhood. He loves both the complexity of the character and Williams’s incredible acting.
King Ragnar,
There’s nothing more sad to me than when people say am i the only one,like they are so insecure in their opinion that they need validation from others !
I would say that having Sansa end up with Tyrion at the end is a distinct possibility, at least in the show; with the added bonus that a Lannister-Stark union works very well in terms of its political alliance connotations. And you know, The War of the Roses, George’s original inspiration for this whole thing, ended in real life with one such political marriage between the Lancasters (Lannisters) and the Yorks (Starks); Henry Tudor (the one surviving male Lancaster heir) and Elizabeth of York.
I think GRRM wrote Sansa as an object lesson in what can happen to a woman who is passive, compliant, and believes the mythology conveyed in song and tales. Curtesy does not always work as the lady’s armor. Being a perfect little lady does not confer safety, security, or happiness.
George,
All you people with all your logic and historical references and shit, making me totally rethink my beliefs about what’s going to happen in the end. Stop it!
(takes another swig of Arbor gold, er, Sauvignon Blanc)
Ten Bears,
I don’t think the Little Bear will die – I think it may be far worse. She is an unexperienced child who acts on emotions and hates compromising. Last season that served Jon well. However, this season compromises will be made in different areas, and I’m affraid that sassy Lyanna will get upset about that. Moreover, I’m afraid that Littlefinger might use it somehow. I don’t like that in the photo he is behind her and smiling. Though on the other hand it may be just a coincidence. One way or another, I expect to see Little Bear in a slightly different role than last season.
Who were these persons who told her what to do that turned out to be the “right” choice? Can’t really think of anything where she was told what the right decision was and then willingly chose to make the wrong decision…
IMO the most interesting point of the discussion was to understand how Sansa’s thinking works and where it comes from in order to understand the choices SHE does make. Besides, in most situations, we cannot even say what would have been the “right” choice, because we obviously do not have a parallel story in which the character made that other choice. We can only say that some choices she did make, did not work out how she thought they would. Well, tough luck. Happens to all of us.
If everyone made the “right” choice all the time, we wouldn’t learn anything (though I suppose we wouldn’t need to because we’d already make right choices all the time in this scenario, but anyway) there would be no story, or a very boring one noone would like to read.
I mean Jon let the Wildlings in, which was a good idea, but it also kind of got Rickon killed because Umber sold him to Ramsay because he wanted military assistance because of all the effing Wildlings that came south because Jon let them in…
So, every character has to make choices that are questionable and difficult and seem good at the time, but turn out to be shitty in order to make this whole thing interesting and move the story forward.
Inga,
Hmmm. Does she really “act on emotions,” or does she act on whatever deep sense of loyalty and honor has been instilled in her? She struck me as extremely level-headed (especially for a child, as I noted above… maybe unrealistically so), but also inexperienced in that she still views the world in black-and-white and acts accordingly. She reminds me of a certain Eddard Stark…
And of course, she’s presumably the only Mormont on Bear Island right now, and has clearly steeled herself for leadership. I am very much looking forward to seeing how she and Jorah interact, especially because she is very much a leader and he is very much a follower; but as is the case with Daenerys, he is more than capable of giving Little Bear wise advice (and on his home turf, no less).
P.S.: Thank you for the comment on Elizabeth of York, echoed above by George. I have been diligently re-reading my Tudor history. 😉
Again, do we?
We have no idea how leaving KL with the Hound would have worked out (talking about the show here; I don’t know how anyone reading the book could think it was a good idea to leave with him, even had that been possible in the circumstances, given the state he was in).
But with the choice between Littlefinger and the Tyrells, she basically ended up in the same place she would have had she just gone with Littlefinger in the first place, and being with him ended up being a ticket into sex slavery. How would choosing differently have made her better off?
But the whole “Sansa’s problem is that she doesn’t take risks” thing really falls apart from Season 5 onward, where she repeatedly takes risks and either suffers terribly for it (agreeing to the “marry Ramsay for revenge somehow” plan) or is humiliated and reverts to the safe choice (after refusing Littlefinger’s help and chancing going it alone, she ends up crawling back to him). Taking risks has never led to anything good for her in the show.
Ten Bears,
Thank you! I love reading and hearing that stuff. 🙂
I’ve heard the story about Maisie’s casting numerous times since the series began and I enjoy it every time. We just heard it again from the SXSW panel with D&D, Maisie and Sophie. They spoke about how they had looked at “probably 300 young girls in England and could not find the right Arya.” They then go on about how they were in Morocco in the hotel lobby where they could get wifi, got the audition video of Maisie’s, waited like ‘forty minutes’ for it to download, watched it and said “she was f*cking awesome for it!” Obviously Maisie’s casting wasn’t just luck since they’ve always said that they searched thoroughly for the right person.
If you haven’t watched that panel vid here is the link. The Maisie casting part is right away in the first couple minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vewbBG0aYM4
Sean C.,
I would argue that in order to be a successful risk-taker, one must have better instincts, and a better sense of how the world at large works, than Sansa does. Arya has that. Sansa does not. (Conversely, Arya has no interest in the insular world of the court, and wouldn’t know how to navigate it half as well as Sansa does.) So the “problem” with Sansa is more complex than not being a risk-taker by nature (which isn’t necessarily a problem in and of itself); it’s also that, not being that sort of person, she really has no sense of which risks to take.
That’s my roundabout and buzzed way of telling you that I agree with your assessment.
Wolfish,
I don’t really follow. Sansa operates almost exclusively within court or similar contexts, so if not taking risks is an advantage there, why is it a problem? And that still doesn’t get at what risks she didn’t take that would necessarily have worked out better, as I said. Picking the Tyrells over Littlefinger was the smarter move, by any reasonable measure. Likewise, both of the times she does take risks it’s in an explicitly political context, which is what she’s supposed to be good at.
Sean C.,
Hey, since you’re discussing your opinion on the show version of the Tyrell marriage, could you share your thoughts on something for me?
How exactly do you think the marriage would happen? Margaery told Sansa once she was queen she would plant the idea on Joffrey’s mind, but I can’t really see him giving up Sansa to solidify a Stark-Tyrell alliance (neither can I see Tywin allowing him to do that).
Vincent Stark,
Tywin himself said that if the Tyrells asked they couldn’t say no, which is why they plan to marry her to Tyrion first before they can do so.
Inga,
I didn’t get the impression that Lyanna Mormont acts on emotions, or that her inexperience rendered her incompetent. Rather, it sounded to me like she duly considered the opinions of her advisors before speaking and before making decisions; she was not swayed by emotional appeals; she was very serious about her priorities and responsibilities to the people of Bear Island first and foremost; and when it came down to it, had the resolve to made the ultimate decision after hearing what everyone has to say and weighing the pros and cons.
As Davos recognized, she never thought she’d be in her position, being responsible for so many people at such a young age. But she seemed to take that responsibility seriously. She only agreed to join Jon’s cause after concluding her people’s very existence was at stake.
By contrast, we’ve got child rulers like the maleable Robyn Arryn, whose primary objective is to watch people fly through the Moon Door.
Look, I’m not saying the portrayal of Lyanna Mormont as a 10-year old ruler was realistic. On the other hand, there have been real-life child monarchs, and no doubt some were successful if educated and guided properly.
In all honesty, I’ve come across a handful of children who are unusually bright and mature, and would probably do a better job than some “adult” politicians I see babbling on TV.
(Wanna bet Lyanna M wouldn’t say climate change is a hoax?)
Clob,
Hey thanks ! I’ll watch that video. I know Martin, Benioff and Weiss have told the Maisie casting story before; I think I may have heard it recently on one of the episode commentaries on YouTube, but I like hearing the story each time it’s told. ?
Equally entertaining are Lena Headey’s episode commentaries. She’s gotta be one of the biggest Maisie fangirls in the world. “Brilliant” is just one of the many superlatives she uses.
Sean C.,
I call it a mistake in view of hindsight. Obviously it was a reasonable decision at the time, as was her decision not to go with The Hound. But both almost immediately turned sour.
As you point out, we have no way of knowing how she would have fared if she’d gone with The Hound. We also don’t know whether Littlefinger’s plans for her would have worked out the same way if she’d left when he first offered.
But regardless it’s difficult to classify the decisions she did make as good ones considering how quickly they blew up in her face.
To me, whether a decision was a good one is best assessed based on whether it was a reasonable choice based on the information the person had at the time. Whether it actually works out or not is affected by a million different things a person may have no control over.
This is a frequent problem I have with how people assess characters’ decisions in this series. A solid decision-making process doesn’t guarantee outcome, and it doesn’t guard against sheer bad luck, which the protagonists suffer from not-infrequently, particularly early in the series (I already mentioned that Ned’s loss hinges on Cersei’s silly scheme actually working, which 99 times out of 100 it probably wouldn’t have; another is Theon’s taking Winterfell triggering the downfall of the Starks, which requires a huge run of luck for the Ironborn).
kathy,
methinks you are putting our morality on that time and place where such a problem doesn’t exist – esp if they didn’t know they are related (thats what always bugged me about the King Arthur story – even tho I loved it, he was fated to sleep with his sister, even tho he didn’t know who she was. So because of that the gods punish him? ack
I love it when you talk dirty….
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Hee, that too.
Congratulations, all–this is a fanstastic thread. Closet geniuses, the lot of you. It’s too cumbersome to answer so many interesting posts individually, so here’s some generalities.
o Wolfish, the essay was terrific. And thanks for recognising the pun. Your insights on the consequences of good, bad, and non-decision making convinced me. I would add that book Sansa was decisive once: she went to Cersei to tattle Ned’s plan to get the girls away. (Arya, bless her, instinctively avoided being trapped.) Sansa’s disloyalty I can neither accept nor forgive…over a decade after reading about it!
o Ten Bears, I’m going to think of you as 10:1 Bears from now on. I thought your odds pretty accurate, especially about Jonsa. I still think Sansa and Tyrion will get together, not because of historical parallels but because D&D love Sansa and because Tyrion especially deserves a happy ending. I just hope they don’t end up on the throne, but find a way for Tyrion to contribute mightily to the rebuilding of Westeros
o I hope Little Bear gets more to do than speechify. She did that well, even replacing Greatjon Umber as the KitN nominator. But IMO the ecstatic response to her was totally out of proportion.
o Sansa. If I didn’t know that GRRM had deliberately invented her to bring disorder to the Stark unity, I wouldn’t tolerate her. She’s a Disney princess acting as Loki but sans the humour or the nous to be consciously malevolent. Nonetheless, she lets LF be her mentor despite knowing some of his most evil deeds. I don’t want her or any Stark to die, but why some fans still idolise her I cannot fathom. Beauty does not excuse it.
o Nissa Nissa. Unless Gendry is Azor Ahai, we’re going to see no sword forging by AA.
Nissa Nissa, the beloved wife Azor Ahai sacrificed to finish Lightbringer, is not even mentioned in the show, like many book things D&D have scrapped. Many book fans dislike Nissa Nissa, yet a large contingent (mostly male, I surmise) go back to this and assume/hope it’s a given. Jon doesn’t have to kill anyone he loves thousands of years after the Age of Heroes. NN is almost certainly metaphorical rather than literal. On 21st century Earth, human sacrifice, especially of women, is widely considered barbaric. The show would completely discredit itself if they used it; IMO even the books won’t use it. One possible exception: Melisandre, the saga’s sacrificer-in-chief, in her R’hollor fervour might sacrifice herself. I expect Jon would be horrified.
Ten Bears,
I also don’t understand also why tell your kids, why not come up with a story like I planned a boat ride along the Blackwater or something like that, keep the kids out of the loop.
But when he put his honor and the well being of Cersei’s children before his, well dumb.
Benioff and Weiss are under contract though. And even at that, they can’t hire just anybody because nobody can work. It’s a strike which effectively will cause a black out.
Why didn’t all the networks do that last strike then if they are in the business of making money.
Sean C.,
What kind of choice is it when your asked in the middle of nowhere; I never liked their answer.
If Sansa said no, all he had to do was head back stop at the inn and get word to Roose to meet them their and pick her up.
Mr Derp,
There isn’t enough time nor is it necessary to have a Targ heir, there are already two in existence, not to mention half the nobility can trace back to a Targ somewhere in their history. Jon is the product of ‘ice and fire’, not Dany. Lyanna was ice and Rhaegar was fire therefore he is the prince that was promised. If they go with another pregnancy and heir, that would be fan service.
I always take into account what GRMM said about taking prophecies too literally and people have drawn up all kinds of complicated theories but maybe it’s simpler than that.
I think Dany and Drogon will both die together. She named Drogon after Drogo – and they will now most certainly face the White Walkers and I expect the NK with his new ‘weapon’ – if certain leaks are true will kill them both. Dying together fulfills her vision perhaps not in the literal way but it could have been foreshadowing for ‘Dany and Drogon a.ka. Drogo being together in death. What about the pregnancy Drago mentioned in the vision? That could be her deep seeded longing for a lost child manifesting itself in her dream..again it doesn’t have to mean she’ll be pregnant.
What about all that Nissa Nissa stuff? I don’t think Dany would be the great love Jon has to kill to make a sword burst into flames – there aren’t enough episodes for that to turn into a deep abiding love, if it were going to happen it would have to be someone else like Arya – from the books we know he loves the girl he believes to be his sister, his family. The prophecy doesn’t say it has to be a ‘lover’ or romantic interest – it’s a legend that happened to be about a man who loved his wife but love is love – it doesn’t have to be romantic in nature. But again that could be a red herring, for all we know, it could be Ghost he has to kill or no one…maybe he has to ‘kill the boy to become the man’ he was born to be’.
Sean C.,
That’s fair enough. Perhaps describing her decisions as mistakes was the wrong way to put it.
I think on one hand you are correct, yet on the other hand her courtesies kept her alive, she listen to Sandor, she listened to Dontos, she listen to Margery and Cersei and picked and chose according to the situation, which eventually let her hoodwink Tyrion as she met Dontos which eventually led to her escape.
Now how much more will she learn and will GRRM let her find out about LF treacheries?
So far we are the only ones who know everything, she knows nothing and Sandor and QOT know more but also not everything.
I totally agree with you here… This is what I had in mind but failed miserably to express in my earlier comment. What I wanted to say is that we know (in advance in many cases) that some of the decisions Sansa makes won’t yield the results she expects. We, as viewers, perceive them as bad choices and Sansa as a poor decision-making character. However, this is wrong for the reasons you’ve mentioned. So, thank you for putting it more eloquently.
Ned has a long history of leaving loved ones in the dark, which only results in the suffering of said loved ones.
Ramsay's 20th Good Man,
Given what she heard Cersei explain to her what Ser Ilyn is doing there in the hiding room (sorry can’t think of where all the women were during the battle) , she likely was terrified for her life. Her rejection of him was just an extension of that fear. I don’t think Hound was trying to be romantic, and I don’t think Sansa took it that way. (btw – I can’t remember, how did Sansa end up back in her room?)
Ten Bears,
I totally agree, and was screaming at the book for Ned to take care of the kids. He was honorable, but had no political sense or common sense, really.
Sean C.,
Ah, thank you! I didn’t remember that.
How funny would have that been, if Joffrey were forced to let Sansa go and could not do anything to stop it.
Sean C.,
Well, seeing as the safe play was going to mean she’d be put on trial for her life with Tyrion, not sure that choice would have worked well either..
But she makes her decisions with facts on hand- BBW Stannis is at the gates, Lancel tells Cersei the battle is lost, she takes Tommen to the throne room, Sansa acts queenly and Shea tells her to go in her room, Sandor is there DRUNK, and a bit rude (as is his nature ) minus a dagger to her throat. LF gives her bad vibes in the book, he’s undressing her with his eyes not shown in the show, Marge let’s her in on the Loris bit which from her view is a good one as the Tyrells aren’t the Lannisters and though I don’t think they showed her not trusting LF until later, I think internally she doesn’t feel okay with him.
Leaving the purple wedding was a chance, it worked . So far in the books, and from the excerpts the Sweet Robyn story looks different from the show, though LF is still pulling the strings, she is picking up on things, quicker than in the show.
Vincent Stark,
Oh I thought she was fine for the part she played. A bit of comic relief really, to see this child command the attention of all these adults. I do agree that her character needs to now do things that don’t involve ‘speeching’. That being said, IIRC the entire cast was blown away by her, not just in those scenes but in other ways. Perhaps this season we will know what the saw (and yeah, I liked her but still think Elsie should have won for her role)
ash,
Shae told her after singing in the hold fast to go to her room and lock the door ( because of Ilyne Payne ), Sansa asked her to come, but shae said she had to see someone ( Tyrion? ).
selena,
It really doesn’t matter because it will be icky either way and weird to say at least.
Spoilers
Bread and butter? More likely Daario 3.0 and Daenerys because that’s where are we going with this. If look at spoilers from Lads on subreddit freefolk.
I do wonder what you’ll be saying when one of them will die and it will end tragically … let’s face it chances are high for it. I have this weird feeling Jon will end up in some loveless marriage with Sansa by being forced to do so. It just gives me headache to even think about it.
Ten Bears,
Everybody is Tyrion’s best friend in the show. Books goes deeper to call each other a friend but yes I certainly expect a few scenes between them to reflect upon their journeys.
Ok just spent a few hours reading this whole thread – wow, really enjoyed this discussion. Usually I avoid Sansa discussions because too often they are just painful to read. This place is filled with intelligent and articulate people who love this show and who enjoy discussing it with each other. You guys make me think and make me laugh Thank you.
kathy,
Must comment on this…
See now apparently you’re of the type that believes the entire story is essentially about Jon alone. While even though Daenerys’ story has been at the forefront as much or more as his in the books, it sounds as if you think her destiny is only to be sacrificial for Jon. I’ve come across others that just look at Jon and say HE alone is the Ice and Fire simply because of heritage. I don’t agree with that, not in small part because of the enormity of Daeny’s story. I, like many others, believe that the Ice and Fire is BOTH Jon and Daenerys… It being their “song” (story) and those that opposed them and aided them.
One, both or neither of them may die in the end but I won’t agree that it’s just about Jon. I also don’t think that was George’s initial idea either considering they both were to live in his early outline. That of course holds no bearing now, but those were his thoughts when he began writing.
Jack Bauer 24,
You have no idea what you’re talking about dude so stop embarrasing yourself ! You’re the same guy who always gets paranoid every year about the seasons being delayed for whatever reason so it’s hard to take you seriously .
Jack Bauer 24,
They did,like i said you have no idea what you’re talking about so please stop !
No, they didn’t. Tons of shows were delayed and networks were running reruns or crappy reality shows.
There will most likely be a strike and it will be on May 2nd. I’m predicting a delay announcement within the next 2-3 weeks.
And you really think they are going to release a trailer and have a red carpet premeire during a strike lol? Do you realize how bad it would look for two of the top showrunners in the business today (Benioff and Weiss) to show up to a red carpet during a writers strike lol. It would look horrible.
This all assumes that Daeny will need to be seduced. I really doubt that she will be: I honestly expect there to be a mutual attraction between the two from the start. Daenerys might be a person whom the world has heaped huge burdens: but she’s still a young woman who has known love and who enjoys loving and being loved.
kathy,
Daeny is one of the two primary protagonists, along with Jon. She’s not some sort of supporting character. She will be there at the climax of the story and she will make some key choices based on her own evolution (which so strongly parallels that of Jon’s) and these choices will be of the “damned-if-you-do-or-don’t” sort where Daeny (and Jon) will not like any of the options.
That has tremendous bearing now! That outline made it clear that Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Bran & Arya were the five main protagonists of the story. The details of the plot have evolved, but the story is the same. How these five characters in particular evolve from Book 1 to Book 7 (and Season 1 to Season 8) is going to be the Story of Ice & Fire.
Sean C.,
The best way I can phrase it is: As you stated earlier, the “Sansa isn’t a great risk-taker” criticism doesn’t really work when one sees that the risks she has taken wound up being disasters. My reasoning is, she doesn’t instinctively know which risks to take because she’s not naturally a risk-taker. Taking off with the Hound might have ultimately been to her benefit, *had she been more like her sister*, but the very idea of doing such a thing is so contrary to anything she would normally do (precisely because she’s not a natural risk-taker), that staying put–rather than doing something contrary to her nature–was ultimately the safest thing for her to do. Sansa doesn’t know how to deal with unknowns, which being on the road she would have dealt with left and right, and ultimately, a situation that might have been “safer” for someone else (e.g., Arya or Bran) probably would have been *unsafe* for Sansa precisely because she’s not a firmly decisive, instinctive sort.
I realize we’re going around in circles, but I actually agree with your reasoning. Unfortunately, I can’t explain it any more clearly than that… because in the last four hours I’ve consumed far more Arbor gold, er, Sauvignon Blanc, than is good for me.
i dont know about you people, but im more exciting about the love story between Tormund and Brienne than anything else
Clob,
I don’t know whether it was legit or fake but one of the leaked spoilers said
Mel tells dany that she must meet jon and tells Varys that she has fulfilled what she has meant to do and brought Ice and Fire together ( jon and dany )
Hope this happens and it is legit..
I would like to see people argue about this even after that
Wolfish,
People with life experience know how to compare choices, think of the what effect each one will have, before making decisions. Granted some decisions need to be made too quickly to compare, tho again with expeience you instinctively know. Sansa never had much life experience, so never learned those skills So its hard to blame her for making choice we never would have made.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
Love all these comments.
On Nissa Nissa, I think the inclusion of her story in the Martinverse might serve at least three purposes: 1) to be part of the rich folkloric background of the Westerosi world; 2) in that vein, to provide the sort of “core story” (e.g., self-sacrificing woman, self-sustaining loner) that forms the basis of how people in a given society think of themselves and how they ought to behave; and 3) to ultimately upend the “expected” end of the story by contradicting one of the “core stories” of said world, and by extension, the reasoning by which people in the aforementioned world behave the way they do.
In essence (note to self: tomorrow morning you’ll be really sorry you were Internetting while drunk), I think one of the reasons GRRM conceived the story of Nissa Nissa and made it a central part of Westerosi folklore was for the precise purpose of negating its central “truth,” that of the “noble honor” of the self-sacrificing woman (a “truth” that still permeates our own society). How that will ultimately play out in the world of ASoIaF is still (obviously) unknown; what we do know, however, is that the women who have fared best are the women who have steadfastly refused to sacrifice themselves, whether physically, emotionally, or intellectually (e.g., Cersei, Arya, Brienne, the Tyrell women, and the Sand women). That’s not to say they haven’t suffered; they most certainly have. But they have lived life on their own terms, and unapologetically so. Sansa, on the other hand, has followed all the rules… and suffered grievously for it.
ash,
Excellent point, and I actually don’t *blame* her for being the way she is. Her naïveté and deep desire to hold on to childish fantasies drive me crazy, but I don’t hate her (or even dislike her) for these qualities. I know enough people like her IRL to know better!
I’m not sure I see how some of the people you list have fared better than Sansa, since you admit they also suffer (also, Sansa was a little kid when starting out, whereas almost everybody else you list was an adult woman, so there’s not really a comparison). In any event, Sansa stopped following all the rules when Ned died (and, again, her worst season on the show to date was Season 5, where she was the farthest thing from traditional).
Grail King,
But Sansa DOES know about LF’s treacheries. Not all of them, of course, but she does know – and has let him get away with:
• Poisoning Joffrey, AND falsely implicating her (for no logical reason) in the convoluted poisoned necklace scheme;
• Murdering Dontos;
• Allowing Sansa to be wanted for a murder/regicide she didn’t commit;
• After framing Sansa for murder conspiracy, failing to come up with another cockamamie story to exonerate her;
• Framing Tyrion, and letting him face certain execution for a crime he didn’t commit;
• Murdering Aunt Lysa (sure, she was batsh-t crazy and was threatening to toss Sansa out the Moon Door, but he’d already calmed her down when he “your sistered” her);
• (As she heard Lysa say) convincing Lysa to lie for him and kill for him [and if Sansa put 2 and 2 together, she’d realize that meant killing Jon Arryn];
• Selling her to Roose Bolton, who personally killed her brother and joined in the murder of her mother, her sister in law, her unborn nephew, and countless Stark soldiers and allies; and then left her unprotected with the Boltons;
• Skulking around W’Fell even though she knows he wants Jon out of the picture.
So, even though Sansa is unaware of the full extent of LF’s treachery, she has (literally) let him get away with murder countless times.
Sorry. This was not meant to be an Anti-Sansa diatribe. It’s just that the notion that she’s an unwitting pawn isn’t quite accurate.
A Dornish Tyrell,
Sometimes leaving loved ones “in the dark” can spare them from unpleasantries. My only criticism is that if you leave them in the dark, make sure they’re someplace safe.
(It was bad enough when he had no answer when Arya asked how he could let Sansa “marry someone like that”; but once he knew Joffrey was a fraud, there was no reason in the world not to get Sansa far, far away before the sh-t hit the fan.)
A Dornish Tyrell,
I apologize if I wasn’t responsive to your comment. What I should’ve said is that Ned the Great Prevaricator has never hesitated to make up cover stories to protect his loved ones. He could’ve said, eg, his intelligence dept learned of a plot to kidnap the girls and they had to be whisked to a secret location ASAP until the threat was neutralized. There’s a million different stories he could’ve told them to keep them in the dark, while getting them out of what I call the Zone of Danger.
I agree that if there is a writer’s strike, there will not be a red carpet premiere. And if the strike goes on for months, season 8 of Game of Thrones and season 2 of Westworld would both likely be delayed into 2019…
However, HBO would NOT have publicly announced a premiere date for Season Seven without assurances from D&D that work on the current season would be completed in timely fashion; they just wouldn’t have.
ash,
You brought up two good points/questions:
1. How was staying put a good option for Sansa, since she knew Illyn Payne was there to kill all the women before Stannis & Co. could rape them? Maybe she expected Stannis to free Ned’s hostage daughter if his invasion succeeded, but that wouldn’t do her much good if she were a bloody corpse.
2. Yeah… How did she get back to her room ? Was Cersei distracted or something ? (I seem to recall Shae telling Sansa to get out of the hen house and run back to her room, but I could be confused.)
Sean C.,
Excellent point about everyone I compared Sansa to (excepting Arya) being an adult woman.
Let’s see if I can still formulate any semblance of an intelligent response, given that I’ve graduated from Sauv Blanc to whiskey…
1. The most obvious difference between the others and Sansa is that they either a) refused to marry or b) knew precisely what they were getting into when they did marry (as Margaery did). More important, none of them went into marriage thinking of it in the romantic terms that Sansa still dreamed of (remember the conversation with Margaery about Tyrion?). Among these women, those who married clearly understood that they were entering into a social contract where their own feelings were completely insignificant. While this means they were powerless in terms of, say, satisfying their emotional and physical desires within their marriages, there *is* power in understanding what the ultimate purpose of marriage among the nobility is, and acting accordingly–whether that means exercising great power informally (as Lady Olenna does), seizing it outright (as Cersei and Ellaria Sand have), or simply taking lovers outside the bonds of marriage, “morality” be damned.
2. I’m not sure that “Sansa stopped following all the rules when Ned died.” Sansa stayed in King’s Landing, remained engaged to the boy king who had her father beheaded, made no effort to leave when said boy king married another, allowed herself to be married to his uncle, and then refused an offer of escape because it seemed safer, somehow, to remain in a capital city full of liars, spies, and both hidden and unhidden enemies than to head up the Kingsroad towards home with one of the most fearsome men in Westeros. (Granted, he was drunk, injured, and a wild card to say the least, but still…)
3. At the risk of sounding like a self-empowering cliché… There’s something to be said for suffering that one is responsible for (what one has done to one’s self), and suffering that one is not responsible for (what has been inflicted on one by others). Cersei has suffered, yes, but she has retained her lover (her twin brother) and borne only his children, and exercised tremendous power behind the scenes before taking the throne for herself (albeit following the death of her only remaining child). Arya has suffered, yes, but her path thus far is not only a logical extension of her desire to avenge her family, but a logical extension of what she has always wanted to do: live a life as a fighter, a path normally reserved for men (after all, our very first sighting of Arya was hitting a target Bran had so much trouble with). Brienne, likewise, has chosen the life of a fighter, what she is best suited for psychologically and physically, gender be damned. She is fulfilled in a way that Sansa is not, as a born protector who has found a “place” normally reserved for men (an ironic parallel to Sandor, the man she tried to kill on the show). The Tyrell women have not been happy in marriage, but are pragmatic enough to not be miserable by its lack of storybook romance. And the Sand women (don’t get me going on how Dorne was totally f*&^%d by the show) have had the sense, among court intrigues and power plays, to unapologetically enjoy the sensual pleasures of life.
So, yes, I think they’ve fared better than Sansa. It’s far more satisfying to live, even suffer, on one’s own terms than on someone else’s.
I really want to believe that, but talks with the WGA and AMTP have just recently broken down. That was after the premeire date was announced. Not only that, but HBO has had questionable marketing in the past, so I wouldn’t put it past them to announce a premeire and then a delay. In fact, they renewed Vinyl and then shortly after the announcement canceled it. Wouldn’t surprise me one bit.
I don’t know necessarily that Dany getting pregnant is “fan service”. For all I know that may be what George told D&D happens in the books. D&D have said they are doing George’s ending. I don’t believe we are going to be able to distinguish what amounts to information from George from D&D so-called “fanfiction” unless the books are finally published, George tells us, or D&D begin one of their post-episode discussions with the words “When George told us”, as they did with Shireen (5.09) and Hodor (6.05).
I do think Dany and the Dragons will die, and that sacrifice will save Jon and/or allow him to end the War.
Predictions:
1. Jon/Dany—-Kid
2. Dany does something heroic, dies along with her Dragons. This allows Jon to “win” the War. Jon and Ghost disappear afterwards, just like the original Azor Ahai (like “ghosts”)
3. Jamie dies in the War fighting alongside Brienne, both wielding Widow’s Wail and Oathkeeper respectively.
4. After Dany’s death we see a vision of her, Drogo and Rhaego together in the Night Lands.
5. Cersei dies, killed either by Jaime, Arya, Tyrion or…the Mountain?
6. Tyrion and Sansa reunite, rule together in a Regency until the Kid comes of age
7. Bran embraces his Three-eyed ravenhood and goes back North.
8. Arya goes “West of West” maybe with Nymeria.
9. Many years later, the Kid (now King or Queen), after Westeros’ first parliamentary elections, visits Tyrion at his vineyard along with Sam, who is by now Hand of the King/Queen +/- Grand Maester. They drink “Imp’s Delight” wine and Tyrion and Sam reminisce about the Kid’s parents. Tyrion finally finishes his Honeycomb and Jackass joke. Sam presents Tyrion with a copy of his latest Opus, “A Song of Ice and Fire”. The end.
Wolfish,
Maybe I shouldn’t have brought up the “Nissa Nissa”/Sansa near-anagram, which is most likely a coincidence.
The “prophecy” aspect – which has not been included in the show – was really offered as an illustration of the concept we’ve been discussing that ancient legends, myths and prophecies
may have originated from fragmented bits of historical facts and events – including names – but after centuries of millennia of being misconceived, twisted, embellished, and skewed in the retelling, the story that remains bears little resemblance to the truth.
Again, this phenomenon is something the show has illustrated taking place even in the span of one generation, eg, fictionalization of Ned “beating” Arthur Dayne in single combat; Braavos play inverting victims and villains; Cersei telling Joffrey when he’s king the truth will be what he says it is.
Therefore, if the “Nissa Nissa” thing ever had any basis in reality, it could be something as mundane (or revolting) as a woman accidentally severing an artery on a gardening tool, an abused woman committing suicide, or a drunken, frustrated husband stabbing his wife.
There are enough varying versions of “prophecies” on the show as it is, and with Gilly’s apparent discovery, even more in S7.
I’ll be the first to concede it’s not very productive to speculate about something that’s been omitted from the show to begin with.
dragonbringer,
Well let’s not mention any “leaked” stuff for now, even obliquely, so that the leaks-averse among us don’t feel like we’re behind the eight ball.
I mean, I don’t want to lay out my theory that Hot Pie is the Valonqar if there are those who’ve seen the “leaks” and are hinting that they already know Hot Pie isn’t the Valanqor, he’s actually Azor Ahai and Lightbringer is baked into the wolf bread he gave to Brienne to give to Arya for safekeeping.
Sorry. Juvenile attempt at humor to convey an earnest request. In all seriousness, I hope we can all wait until we’re on the same page to discuss S7 on equal footing when it airs.
Thanks !
Wolfish,
Two quick comments:
•. I see you’ve “.graduated from Sauv Blanc to whiskey…” ?? I’ve got my own wine-infused GoT-related story to tell; maybe tomorrow.
•. Oops. I forgot #2…
I’ve been ill these days and have other problems as well. Reading these comments has been a great comfort for me. Thank you!
George,
Why would Jon disappear and abandon his supposed child?
Wolfish
,
Read that and immediately flashed to that scene at the end of Star Wars part 6, when we see the ghosts of obi wan yoda and vader – I really hope they do not to that here!
This on the other hand I could live with!
Wolfish,
Oh I didn’t think you blamed her but your post got me thinking of why she was how she was.
Yes indeed , for then you have a better chance of being able to act independently from anyone else.
Ten Bears,
This is very true and has driven me a little crazy watching her inaction. But really she is still a child despite her age, and is limited in how to handle any situation well. What she does know is what happens to her when she does something wrong, when she is caught – and that fear may be keeping her from acting even tho she wants to. I do think, in fact hope, that she has been thinking revenge thoughts and will be able to act on them this season.
Wolfish
George,
Ten Bears,
I am having a horrible time getting my responses to fit the original poster, so I give up. You three know which of these you said, you can figure it out! 🙂
Oh I didn’t think you blamed her but your post got me thinking of why she was how she was.
Yes indeed , for then you have a better chance of being able to act independently from anyone else.
,
Read that and immediately flashed to that scene at the end of Star Wars part 6, when we see the ghosts of obi wan yoda and vader – I really hope they do not to that here!
This on the other hand I could live with!
,
Shy Lady Dragon,
Feel better soon!
Jack Bauer 24,
George,
I don’t think we need to worry too much about S7 honestly, they wouldn’t have a official date for the season if they thought the writers strike would mess with it and in 2007 although Showrunners stopped writing scripts and filming, quite a few Showrunners continued with production duties. If the writers strike is still going at the premiere, it also will not be affected as it does not involve script writing in any form, D&D don’t do marketing for GOT, HBO does all that. All D&D are required to do is show up, watch the premiere and answer questions.
What is more concerning is Liam Cunningham said they would start filming the next season in September and if the writers strike continues for a while that will be problematic and we will have a delayed final season. Though if the writers choose they can write scripts but can in no way shape or form submit them. It has to be done Personally at their own computer at home, nor can they start with costuming etc which takes months with the GOT outfits.
So personally I think S7 won’t hit any road bumps but if the writers strike kicks on for a while S8 will hit road bumps and be delayed.
ash,
Thank you!
Ten Bears,
The Prophecy of “The Prince That Was Promised” many believe with slight variations is supposed to be Azor Ahai reborn. So if TPTWP is AA reborn that means the Lightbringer sword should already be in existence and since Nissa Nissa was already sacrificed for the sword’s power Why sacrifice another when it’s already been done and the sword could be merely located and used by TPTWP.
I agree if Nissa Nissa was gonna be a thing in the show they would of used they phrase Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai a few times but from my recollection I believe Melissandre used AA once, when we first saw Stannis but then she dropped it and started using The Price That Was Promised continually instead, no one has ever used Nissa Nissa in the show once.
Ten Bears,
I will do my best to not speak of leaks ..
I may have missed amidst all the comments but did anyone ever bring Drogo’s name when speaking about nissa nissa
Wimsey,
kathy,
Agree GRRM did not make as many characters as he did for one single character to be a chosen one. I see the big characters at the climax and making life altering decisions for everyone in Westeros as Dany, Jon, Tyrion and Bran etc. They are all important in different ways and we will see them all come together and make choices that will probably haunt the short time they have left or if they have long lives haunt them forever.
A song of ice and fire isn’t in my belief referring to one person, it’s referring to multiple people and their life stories and their fight wielding fire with fire in their hearts praying for a eternal fiery summer against a once enslaved newer race of people now using ice to enslave people for reasons unknown filling them with ice and bringing ice and darkness to all of Westeros but who in Martin’s own words wouldn’t call them evil, we just don’t know their motives.
Now I remember. Re: #2 above –
I agree with your observations.
From my perspective, I’d add:
On one hand….
• It’s hard for me to put myself in the shoes of a fictional 14 (?) year-old girl in the middle of a terrifying situation.
• I recognize that in stressful times, like when a war is raging outside, nobody has the luxury of writing down a list of pros and cons to make a carefully considered decision.
• I can only imagine that if I were a 14 year-old in that situation, my first impulse might be to abide by the Janos Slynt Principle of Crisis Managemen, ie hide in my room, pull the covers over my head, and pray my bladder doesn’t betray me.
• It’s hard to criticize a young girl who’s been tormented and brutalized, for being paralyzed by indecision.
On the other hand….
• Sansa has seen enough horrors to shatter any illusions that “the Queen is my friend” or “the Queen will protect me.”
• She’s also seen enough “reality” to know that there are no Knights in shining armor, and that (as Sandor told her) she lives in a world of killers.
• Likewise, any illusion that if Stannis prevails everything will be wonderful must have vanjshed when Cersei told her Mr. Payne’s “protection” meant he’d slaughter the women -inclhding Sansa – before Stannis and his men could reach them. • Therefore, “staying put” carries a high risk of getting butchered, raped or both.
When Sandor presents her with another option, she already knows that despite his gruff demeanor:
• Sandor is the one who saved her beautiful knight Ser Loras from the rampaging Mountain
• Sandor came back and saved HER from gang rape and murder by a frenzied mob during the KL riot – and assured her “You’re alright, Little Bird” as he carried her to safety.
• Sandor quickly came up with that “nameday” reap & sow story to save her from Joffrey’s wrath when she told him “you can’t” kill the drunken Dontos.
• Sandor stopped her from getting herself killed when he saw she was contemplating pushing Joffrey off that bridge.
• She’s seen firsthand on more than one occasion that he’s a fearsome f-cking warrior – and top-notch bodyguard.
• He’s offered to take her home, no strings attached, no detours, and no ulterior motives.
• Yes he’s drunk and dirty – but he just came from the battlefield. And he’s “highly motivated” to get far away from there ASAP.
• Nobody wants to f-ck with Sandor Clegane;
• All of the so-called “Knights” and “Sers” either beat her or were cowards.
• There are times in life, like sporting events, when it’s nice to be in the company of pretty boys in shiny suits with flowers; there are other times, like when you’re in hostile territory, when you need an intimidating, hulking fighter – like Sandor.
Now, even with all of the trepidation and confusion she must’ve been feeling, and the pressure of making a spur of moment decision….
Wasn’t it a no-brainer?
King Ragnar,
Wolfish,
I personally adored Lyanna Mormont, it was good to finally see another member of House Mormont and she was adorable yet feisty.
I do see however what you mean with the limited episodes and I too would prefer we focus on the characters that we have seen grow from the beginning than newer characters we aren’t as invested in but as long as she stays a ally and supporting character it hopefully won’t be a issue.
I would however like to see Jorah and Lyanna reunite, we’ve known him from the very beginning and though his not a main character, his still a very big one we’ve seen him grow, and struggle and fall and rise up once more. So even though Jorah is deeply flawed and makes stupid mistakes, he has a good heart and is a good man so it would be amazing to see the last of his family forgive his mistakes and accept him.
Nissa Nisaa means Moon .
Once the lightbringer is forged It is said to be as warm as nissa nisaa had been ..
GRRm made Dany and Drogo call each other “sun and stars” and “moon of my life ” and included a story about how when the moon and sun comes close together the dragons born from the moon .
Once lightbringer is made from nissa nissa ..lightbringer can make heat for itself ..
Drogon is said to be as warm as Drogo as been and drogon can make the heat for himself as they are fire made flesh ..
Iam sure all of this may mean nothing
Mel,
I don’t remember anyone using the words Nissa Nissa or Azor Ahai once on the show and I doubt it will start now. The show has always used Prince that Was Promised instead of AA. Why show a page of that prophecy in a promo picture and give everything away? Not to mention Gilly isn’t even reading that page in the picture. Her eyes are fixed on the previous one. I think they’re trying to throw us off.
Here’s the previous fragment/page just in case (the second half of the paragraph should be on the previous page):
As the First Men established their realms following the Pact, little troubled them save their own feuds and wars, or so the histories tell us. It is also from these histories that we learn of the Long Night, when a season of winter came that lasted a generation—a generation in which children were born, grew into adulthood, and in many cases died without ever seeing the spring. Indeed, some of the old wives’ tales say that they never even beheld the light of day, so complete was the winter that fell on the world. While this last may well be no more than fancy, the fact that some cataclysm took place many thousands of years ago seems certain. Lomas Longstrider, in his Wonders Made by Man, recounts meeting descendants of the Rhoynar in the ruins of the festival city of Chroyane who have tales of a darkness that made the Rhoyne dwindle and disappear, her waters frozen as far south as the joining of the Selhoru. According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne’s many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.
Based on all the promo for the season and the hints we’ve had on the show Jon is the one trying to convince everyone to stop with their greed and petty squabbles in order to fight the WW in the Long Night.
I’ll die laughing if the book we saw in the promo shot doesn’t end up being mentioned at all on the show.
“Magical Reasons”? Not meant to be a comprehensive outline; just playing off the fact that the first Azor Ahai disappeared from recorded history and legend after fulfilling his “purpose” and Ghost’s name.
Flayed Potatoes,
I agree. The purpose of releasing that photo was to generate curiosity and discussion among the fans. They knew that fans would decipher the text in the photo. I highly doubt that there will be any mention of Azor Ahai or Nissa Nissa on the show.
George,
Or maybe “Jon Snow” disappears from history and is replaced by whatever Jon’s Targaryen name is after the war. So the name disappears but not the person. Like in a hundred years or so, songs will remember the hero “Jon Snow”, but in recorded history we’ll only find Jon’s birth name and people won’t know they’re the same person.
Like those theories about Brandon the Builder being the original Last Hero.
What do you mean “made no effort to leave”? First, she did try to leave, and second, she was a hostage; she can’t be blamed for her own captivity, and her primary consideration in deciding what to do was whether the risk/reward ratio was acceptable. That’s not following the rules, that’s looking out for one’s own safety; whether a different character would have made a different evaluation is a matter of individual preference.
lol
Thank you! A good ship, too, as that makes a regular occurrence across fandoms.
Shy Lady Dragon,
Get well soon!!
The Prince that Was Promised means something; Azor Ahai does not. It would be bad adaptation to use Azor Ahai on the show rather than a descriptive title.
Again: snapshot! As I was typing this, someone asked me something. Does that snapshot of me looking away from the computer indicate that this is a conspiracy to trick people into thinking that I don’t follow Watchers on the Wall? If the page is in front of her, then she’ll be reading it, or trying to read it at some point.
As for it “spoiling,” the people who issued the still probably liked the shot. Chances are very good that they would not recognize that it was any sort of spoiler. Moreover, it won’t be: only a tiny, tiny fraction of show viewers read “hardcore fanchild” sites like this one.
Too many fans have equated “bittersweet” with “somebody dies.” They also have equated it with “Jon/Daeny/whomever will not be monarch, because that is a happy ending.” However, look at the nature of this story, and look at the potential foreshadowing Ned & Robert offer at the outset of the series. Given that, I think that you are dead on: the bittersweet will be living unhappily ever after, just as Ned & Robert did. This is not to say that they will always be abjectly miserable; instead, Jon, Daeny, etc., will live wondering “couldn’t there have been another way?”
I think that we’ve gotten the first big clue as to what might cause this dilemma. One, how is Daeny (or Jon or Tyrion or Arya) going to react when they learn that the Walkers are essentially a souped-up version of the Unsullied? Two, how will they react when they learn that humans brought this on themselves by being a great “evil” in the eyes of other people?
Vanessa Cole,
All very true, but it we can safely say that Jon is not going to want to bonk his aunty.
This show is informed by medieval history, but only so far in the context of the characters they’re developing for a general audience.
I think that it is pretty well established that there is not an after-life in Martinverse! We should not expect there to be one, when the original author does not believe in this stuff.
(Yes, yes, I know: warging; however, despite fan-fictions to the contrary, that’s pretty clearly just an imprint of a human mind, not the actual mind itself, and even the imprint itself fades.)
Ten Bears,
Excellent summary of pros and cons there – but I still say its difficult for her despite what she knows of him. These points as you state are not equal to each other. The first one is probably the most important and has the most bearing on her: she is a fictional 14 (?) year-old girl in the middle of a terrifying situation.” and I would add with little real world experience. That will overshadow all of the there positive things she knows about the Hound, imho.
BTW how old is she supposed to be at this stage? i was thinking closer to 16? How long has passed since the purple wedding?
Shy Lady Dragon,
Boooo! Sending you big internet hugs and best wishes (and waves obviously), hang on in there Shy one!
Re: bad decisions characters have taken in general. I think some of them may be being judged with the benefit of the hindsight/additional knowledge that we viewers possess, but most of them were probably necessary for the story. Imagine if Ned had whisked his family and men away from KL at the first whiff of danger and hadn’t died (at least at that point) and how differently things might have worked out as a result? That’s not the only one by any means but is probably the first big why-did-you-do-that moment and the knock-on effect leads to all the other questionable decisions.
Mind you, it could be argued that the battle against the WWs is the main story and all the in-fighting between humans (which is by far my favourite part) is just the pre-amble moving the main players into place for the final showdown.
Close your eyes and relax. Imagine that your illness is concentrated in one part of your self. Imagine relaxing music and fine food and a pleasant atmosphere.
Now, imagine that your immune system are the Freys and your illness are the Starks and slaughter the dishonorable bastards…..
I think that the “infighting” among the humans is providing the setup for the evolution of the main characters. In part, it puts the main characters in places where they experience things that drives the evolution; in other cases, it’s the infighting itself that drives the evolution.
But all of that character evolution is going to be what makes Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, etc., the people who do what they will do at the climax of the White Walker plotline. As an analogy to sports, the human wars are the regular season; the Walkers are the Championship Playoffs.
Yes she knows those, but if your a book reader she tells you why, the Arryans did not fight for her brother, why would they help her, in show again she can’t know what they would do to her.
Dontos- she was at sea who she going to tell? the rest could fall on the above.
Joffery ,again after the fact, in book she put 2 and 2 together in show again she was at sea and in all cases she was a POW, she can’t trust Cersei, Tywin, the Vale, her Aunt was a nut case who tried to kill her and people want her to put her trust in the hands of strangers, she can’t because prior to that everyone she trusted prior have betrayed her.
The Bolton fiasco is BS, but I’ll try to let it rest, she didn’t learn about it until they are overlooking Mote Callin in the middle of no where, where she going with 10-20 soldiers surrounding her?
I’am still pissed they gave that shit her words.
She doesn’t trust LF one bit, but he’s kept her alive and as said in the show in that point in time she knows what she’s dealing with.
In the show I think she needs to get SR on her side to get rid of LF and keep the Vale, we will see.
Wimsey,
I would rather expect the Targarian Dream-Team to find a bunch of WW todlers playing piecefully with their ice toys and having to burn or stab them all. The show (and books) are very much about children and how children can be as dangerous as adults (take Olly, or the Little Birds, or the wight children who killed Karsi); the mass murder of little WWs is kind of foreshadowed. But it would be heartbreaking and horrible nonetheless.
Inga,
Hi Inga. Sorry that was a very long pizza break! I’m confused which part of the page you think is the notes with the (possible) numbers in them? I thought you meant the bit right at the bottom which I did the zoomed in photo of? To me it looks like a pattern which could have some small words or numbers but isn’t clear enough to me to even make a guess. Or did you mean somewhere else?
Mind you, as Flayed Potatoes spotted (good noticing-small-details glasses FP, I need to get some!) that’s not the page Gilly is looking at. Perhaps there’s something relevant just before that bit. I’m with those who think if there’s anything important in those texts it’s someone like Gilly, seeing it with no prior knowledge and a (relatively) non-educated view, who will spot it. Maybe something has been there the whole time but misinterpreted by previous readers? Hidden in plain sight. Wimsey’s always telling us the prophecies in the story don’t mean what characters think they do (looking at you, Mel).
Firannion,
I believe historically those kind of books were often elaborately decorated. In the early Middle Ages, for example, when very few people could read or write (far fewer than in the show) books were very precious, lovingly handwritten and often there was only one copy. Only very important things were written down. I’m not a (ASoIaF) book reader but perhaps this is the show equivalent of those? The Citadel is the equivalent of places like the British Library holding priceless texts from centuries ago.
I think this will continue ( in book ) until she gets where she wants and needs to be HOME; in show she’s there but she will keep him until she has the Vale under her and SR control along with learning about Ned.
In show we have a problem where an adult woman is playing an 11-14 year old and the writing isn’t flowing like it should so her decisions look idiotic at points.
All characters have done gray areas, and a few have gone to the black side, Sansa is no where near Cersei, or LF, Tywin,Walder,Roose, Ramsey, or Danny.
She’s done some foolish decisions but none due to evil reasons.
Lulus Mum,
Always on my side, brave Mother of Cats! Thank you from the bottom of my heart! (Do people say that? Obviously, I’ve just have!) A bow (not a curtsy, I’m a Brienne fan) for you 🙂
Wimsey,
Thank you so much, kind ser!
I’m going to practice your wise method, but with a significant change: Arya killing both Meryn Trant and Walder Fray.
Oh and for those of us who have been thinking about what kind of music the Night King likes and what he would sound like if he spoke, I think I’ve found a contender for the noisey category. A live version of Amnesia by Swans. Start from 2.30 when the singing kicks in and listen to it with headphones on and the volume as high as it’ll go. They were famous for playing ear bleedingly loudly and this is what I imagine the sound of the Wall falling turned into music would be, with NK singing over the top. They wouldn’t need magic, just some really powerful speakers! 😀
I doubt that there are many WW toddlers! There seem to be only a dozen or so WW as it is: and presumably they are from Craster’s lot. What we have not yet had explained is why the Walkers returned. That is going to be very important because it also is a key to making them go away again. We really do not have a good idea of how long they have been back: clearly a few decades at least (i.e., the age of Craster’s older daughters), but they might have returned before then. Oddly, it does not seem to key to any clear events of which we’ve heard.
Shy Lady Dragon,
Yes they do and you are most welcome! I am a great believer in gender equality so please do whatever you are most comfortable with and I will happily accept it. Bert and Ernie are obviously sending furry wishes too, especially if you have food or will cuddle them. Cats are so shallow! 😉
Thinking of Brienne and character evolution, she used to be a joke to men but now has admirers in Jaime, Tormund and Houndie. She didn’t have some rom-com type make over, she stuck to her guns – well swords – did what she believed in and carried on regardless. At the risk of jinxing them all I have high hopes that she, Davos, Sam, Gilly and Pod, who all share those kind of characteristics, make it. They are all essentially side-kicks but genuinely good people trying to do the right thing. When I eventually attack the tv so hard I end up in GoT, which seems fairly inevitable, I shall be hugging them all. Inbetween dispensing some House Mum justice to others.
P.S. Don’t play that Swans song if you’re feeling rough, it’s serious headache/destroy solid walls of ice stuff! 🙁
I’m a Stark fan and Sansa is my favorite followed by Jon and Ned, they all made some dumb decisions in the case of Sansa ( Book Version ) I disagree a bit on this part:
If she stayed in her room as was told by her father she and Jeyne Poole may not be prisoners, it was a small chance they could get out a real small chance I say < 5%; that one small chance was removed when she disobeyed her father.
In show it's not disclosed ( unless this year if Bran gives a reveal ).
Lulus Mum,
Yes, something my DH keeps telling me when I complain about a turn in a movie – if it hadn’t happened, we’d have no movie, or a very different one.
Wimsey,
HAHAHAHA! Thanks, I’ll remember that when my immune system is acting up!
ash,
What the fuck’s a DH? (Sandor voice) 😀
Grail King,
For some reason my edit is marked as spam, but adding in show at the end of season 6 I think she be between 17 and 19.
ash,
If I wrote the show it would only be about 3 episodes long ’cos I’d want to save all the ones I love and dispatch the ones I hate. We’d run out of story very quickly and it’d be really dull!
Hard to say what D&D would make her now. They’d probably say like 16 although the timeline from when she told Tyrion she was 14 until ‘current’ isn’t very long, so maybe 15.
At the end of ADwD it’s 300 AC so book Sansa is 14 going on 15 (birth 286 AC). Most of the big events at the end of that book line up with the end of season 5. While it feels like a lot of time has passed watching the show, everything to that point was in a three year time. Jon Arryn being killed was 298 AC to Jon being stabbed in 300 AC.
I will read all the comments after adding my speculation but here goes:
1) Jamie/Cersei – I believe they are meeting someone from the East who this site has reported, someone from Bravos to be exact. This meeting will set in motion a chain of events that this site has also reported on. I reckon this is from episode 1, or potentially episode 2.
2+3) Lyanna Mormont & Davos – Again I think this is either episode 1 or 2. This site reported there will be a high stakes scene in Winterfell but didn’t give any further details, I will speculate based on spoilers
4) Sam/Gilly – we knew from the spoilers that this happens, pretty sure this is coming in Winds of Winter too. I’d guess this is episode 2 or 3 and may lead to Sam leaving to go to either Jon or potentially Dany with information about the White Walkers.
5) Bran – I’m pretty sure this is them arriving at the wall, in what I suspect is episode 1, to be greeted by Ed and what’s left of the Nights watch.
6) Tormund/Brienne – I found this interesting as it confirms Brienne returns to Winterfell yet spoiler
I would guess Pod is safe but I’ve no idea what Brienne and Pod will do this season or Tormund for that matter.
7) The Hound – this is another really interesting one for me as it confirms the Hound is going North. But who are the soldiers, potentially knights of the Vale? Maybe members of the Brotherhood? This must surely be episode 2 or even 3.
8) Jon – clearly looking in the crypts and fearing the fate of the Starks who went south and never returned including I suspect his mother.
9) Arya – I thought this could be the twins but I’m pretty sure it’s the Inn with Hot Pie now as we know
I’d be confident this is episode 1 also and it’s Melisandre who she sees, but does she kill her?
10+) Team Dany – These must all be episode 1 or 2 and we know they are at Dragonstone, notably there are no Ironborn, Tyrells or Dornish though?
Vally,
Dear Husband
Oh, I just meant that as kind of projection into Dany’s mind as she’s dying…sort of mirroring the show version of her visions at the house of the Undying?
Shreyans,
I think you could be correct, Greyworm dying would make some sense given he’s a background character and team Dany likely need to sustain some losses.
In my show Sansa and Littlefinger are the ones killed by the White Walkers in the premiere cold open. 😉
I am now irresistibly led to picture the movie-cliché alternative: Brienne reaching up to take off her nerdy librarian glasses, unpin her severe bun and let her long hair down – only to be reminded that she has neither.
Ahh. I was guessing “Dumber Half” like Wolfish refers to Better Half. HA!!
Lulus Mum,
My Trilling is sending a purrrrrrrrrrr to Bert and Ernie.
Brienne has become a role model for me – I’m facing my nerdiness in admitting that. I do hope all the best for her and Houndie, Jaime, Davos, Tyrion, Sam, Gilly, Pod… and, of course, Arya. I fear the mornings (I wake up at 4 a.m. to watch the episodes when they are first available) that might come after the death of one of them. At least I’ll know that you do the reverse breaking of the 4th wall and make things right 😉
Unless Gilly actually reads the page on camera? After all, they took the trouble of substituting “Lord of Light” for the “R’hllor” mentioned on the actual quote from the World of Ice and Fire.
Then again, I would expect them on the show to freely substitute “Azor Ahai” with the “Prince who was promised” or “The one who was promised” as they’ve done before…
I’m not at all objecting to the inclusion of tiny paintings, illuminated letters, ornate borders, gold leaf embossing etc., which we have all seen in medieval texts. What seems improbable to me is that a book would be so painstakingly created with so much blank space at the bottom of each page, as if intended for students to take notes or doodle. I would think that the original scribe/illustrator team would use the paper/parchment frugally, leaving only enough of a white border to be readable.
I’d read that comment when the thread started but didn’t reply. For some reason it didn’t cross my mind that perhaps there is only one dragon ‘ring’ pin/clasp thing that is given to Grey Worm who then gives it to Missandei. If that is the case he could have just given it to her as a memento while he goes off to battle. However, I do think there’s a good chance he’s a fatality this season.
not leak or even a specific spoiler material per se… but a reference to a filming thread
Firannion,
In the Citadel library I hope, smashing the no women allowed rule which Gilly appears to have bent at least a little, depending on where exactly she is. Re: the book’s pages, my misunderstanding, I thought you meant they wouldn’t have devoted space to large decorations. If Inga’s correct and it is notes I guess it might be footnotes by the original scribe, unless someone’s been vandalising them. Perhaps Gilly’s spotted a rude doodle or some graffiti which was ignored but is the key to everything 😉
Shy Lady Dragon,
Sometimes you just have to introduce your own cannon. In mine, Shireen is fine and no-one can tell me otherwise! That’s partly why I like spoilers, I want to be emotionally prepared for any big shocks and in the case of that scene (someone getting burned but very definitely not a small girl) the lovely Ginevra was watching my back. I didn’t watch it live and she posted on here to tell me exactly at which point to turn it off. Same with Oberyn, I knew what was coming and am very squeemish about eyes so the second he hit the ground I shut mine. Some co-workers wished they’d been warned about the eye gouging in advance. Only people with very strong stomachs probably don’t have a single bit they didn’t think, at least temporarily, they could have done with not seeing, or at least being prepared for it 🙁
It won’t be revealed in retrospect: this is something that has to be done while it is happening in order to develop the characters. After all, this was Season 1, and much of that was devoted to developing the main characters.
The big issue with Sansa escaping Kings Landing is that she just does not think for herself, at least not until much later in the story. I am not sure how Book 1 / Season 1 Sansa could have gotten out of there: she simply has no comprehension of what the Lannisters are like, and she still was so infatuated with Joffery that she would have resisted had, say, one of her father’s men tried to rush her out of there.
This helped show us the huge differences between Sansa and Arya. Arya actually had much less difficulty escaping because Arya has some basic notion of how to take care of herself. Suppose that Sansa did somehow find herself out of the keep after she finally had clued onto Joffery. Er… then what? Sansa had no idea how to blend in with a crowd. She has zero idea of how to do basic things like get food and water. She almost certainly would give herself away be expecting the “small folk” to wait on her.
They might well do that: and I even expect that they will. After all, this probably will come up next year. But at that point, it is no “spoiler”: the TV show cannot spoil itself! My bet is that this is going to be one way of informing the audience about the Promised One: Sam probably knows something about the legends, and it will come up as Gilly reads through it.
Well, Sam found a way to get Gilly into Castle Black; likewise he might find a way to get her into the Citadel…lol
Whoa… This comment thread!
(considers dent in whiskey bottle, refills coffee)
I’m waiting.
I certainly thought so, but it really would have been against her nature, as Sean C. keeps reminding me. Not to mention, she would have had to undergo all sorts of changes to her physical person in order for the Hound to effectively conceal her identity, and I think it would have been far more psychologically difficult for her to do such a thing than it was for Arya.
I would refer you to Ten Bears’ comment above; to both of us, leaving with Sandor seemed like a no-brainer given “the risk/reward ratio” (which Ten Bears listed exhaustively in his/her original post). But as you correctly point out, “a different character [might] have made a different evaluation.” (And of course, Ten Bears has not read the books, so for purposes of this post, we’re only discussing Show!Sansa and Show!Sandor.)
Just to be clear: As I wrote in response to another commenter, I don’t blame Sansa for being Sansa, and certainly not “for her own captivity”; and as I wrote in response to an earlier post of yours, given that she *is* Sansa, neither do I blame her for choosing not to take really great risks, because a person who’s not a natural risk-taker has no intrinsic, practiced sense of how to take risks—and may well endanger herself even more by stepping outside of her decision-making comfort zone. (Gods, I hope that makes sense. I’m not sure that, in terms of getting my thoughts onscreen, late-morning sobriety is an improvement over early-morning inebriation.)
Returning to the idea of what different characters might do, how the Stark sisters make “different evaluation[s]” is a long-running thread in both the books and the show, and perhaps nowhere are their tendencies more clear than in the different choices each one makes when it comes to Sandor. Sansa has never had any reason to fear him; in fact, she has numerous reasons not only to trust him, but to believe he would risk his own life to save hers. Arya, on the other hand, has a very tangible reason to hate his guts, in that her only association with him is the death of Mycah. And yet, following the fiasco at the Twins Arya realizes that he isn’t in it just for the money—that despite her continued hatred of him, he isn’t going to hurt her and she’s far better off under his protection than in any other scenario immediately available to her.
Again, I don’t blame Sansa for her choices, and given the stark (no pun intended) differences between her and Arya, cannot truly say she would have been better off making any number of different choices.
Saner Half, not “Better Half.” Sanity isn’t necessarily “better”… 😉
Unless he had been
Know what would be really fun fanservice? To have one of them briefly peruse the Half-Blood Prince’s marked-up copy of Advanced Potion-Making and set it aside as probably unimportant.
I wrote something to this effect (although not in nearly as much detail) in a comment that’s awaiting moderation. I’m in the contingent that tends to believe she would have been better off making an escape with the Hound, but I must acknowledge that the main problem with this scenario would have been the physical and behavioral changes she would have had to have made in order to be effectively disguised. I’m not sure she could have pulled it off.
That would be hilarious!
Presumably they obviously would need J.K. Rowling’s permission…
Not that I think D&D would really do it…
We might see a stray copy of “The Hedge Knight”, “The Ice Dragon” or even “The Winds of Winter” scattered haphazardly about, just for fun, though…
Well, they did go to the trouble of having the taunts of the French castle guard from Monty Python and the Holy Grail translated into Low Valyrian so they could put them into the mouth of the champion defending the gates of Meereen. And the book wouldn’t have to look identical to the one in the Potter movie; it could just have the same title (which is too generic to be copyright-protected) and be written by some bastard half-Targaryen from the Blackfyre Rebellion or something. Serious Potterheads would get it.
The question is more: Are D & D into Rowling enough to think of such a wink to a crossover fantasy fandom?
Well, the 15 of them that also are hardcore SoI&F’ers! (I am a fan of both: but there is zero chance that I would pick up on it on TV.)
Wolfish,
I think that behavior would have been the big thing. Physical appearance would not have been that important: after all, almost nobody that was searching for her would have known what she actually looked like. Moreover, they would know to look through basic disguises such as colored hair. So, had they seen a dark-haired young woman in peasant clothing but acting nothing like a peasant, they would have given her a quick hair rinse (or some “other” test) quickly. Sansa could not even easily succeed in dressing herself like a boy: that works well in stories, but as we saw with Maise Williams as early as the 2nd season, young women in boys’ clothing look like young women in relatively modern garb.
However, if Sansa had been able to actually pull off acting like a peasant, then she probably could have walked (or shuffled) out of the gates unnoticed. After all, how many dozens and dozens of auburn haired women did so every day?
Ah dangit!! I was thinking that didn’t sound right. Yes, Saner Half. 🙂
Lulus Mum,
Hi! Yes, I was writing about the bottom of the page you zoomed, but ir reads better without zooming, if you have some experience in reading hand-written medieval chronics on-line (and I do it quite often – bless the Internet). So, what I can say once again… The margins are a bit too wide, but in general wide margins were more a rule than an exeption. Books were often affected by dampness and mould or attacked by mice, and wide margins were the only to protect the text. As for marginal decorations, most of the medieval books had none. On the other hand, side or bottom notes were not a rarity: I guess, people who left them didn’t consider that as vandalism – if they had some valuable information they shared it (though rude doodles and graffiti happened too and now they make a precious material for scientific studies). OK, I have to remind myself that this is not a real medieval book, but the prop-guy who made it did a pretty good job, especially, if the point was to have some information on the margins. And informtion on the margins can be simply handy. If legends about the long night and Azor Ahai appear on the same page with the Targaryan family tree we can take it for granted that Azor Ahai will be a Targarian (it may be written in the plain text, BTW). Otherwise, someone like me may simply dismiss any connection between Azor Ahai and Westeros (or call it a plothole). After all, Azor Ahai is an eastern hero and, if he happens to be reborn, it should happen in the framework of the same culture which gave birth to the myth.
Wimsey,
Excellent points all. Of course, they’re all moot now; I have a feeling the Princess in the North will never again need worry about fleeing anyone other than wights and White Walkers.
On another note, I can name “15 [Potterheads] that also are hardcore SoI&F’ers” just among my daughter and my classmates! (I just earned a BA in Geography and an Advanced Geospatial Certificate last year, and yes, I was the, er, matron of the Geography graduates.) In fact, the young ‘uns are responsible for getting me into both Potter and ASoIaF. Between the time spent on discussions on WotW and actually knowing what my House, Patronus, and wand are, Saner Half doesn’t know what to make of my Internetting tendencies.
Firannion,
That is a possibility. Another possibility popped into my head that hadn’t previously… movement in another direction.
Not a single Greyjoy in any of these pics?
Jack Bauer 24,
Yeah, Petra must be beside herself with vexation. 😉
Wolfish,
lol
Jack Bauer 24,
Pehaps those shots will give too much away to constitute a promo photo.
Wolfish,
Alas! Such is the problem with hyperbole: too often it can be shown to be really bad…..
😉
Actually, it would be interesting to know what became of Potterheads 10 years later. So many of the people who were big fans 17 years ago are now in their late-20’s and early-30’s. The franchise is still tremendously popular (my 9-year old loves it); I wonder how common it is for the Potterheads of the 2000’s to be “Throners” in the 2010’s?
On a depressing note, I do remember SoI&F being recommended as a “What do I read now?” for HP fans 10 years ago: 4 books were out, and the 5th was coming out “later that year” (whoops!), and it was plugged for having over-arching mysteries on par with Harry Potter’s; however, it was not for “younger” readers. Well, those younger readers are all plenty old enough now!
Wimsey,
We can agree to disagree, but I don’t think we need a specific reason for the WW return. Humans and all the other living beings are expansive, and, when the circumstances are right, they expand. In this case, there definitely was a combination of right curcumstances when the WW started to move some three or four decades ago: the long night was comming and the dragons were extinct. Now dragons are back, but there are only three of them and untill the very end of the last season they were stuck in Essos. The Night King could have been unaware of them or maybe he expected them to stay in Essos. And even now you can’t expect him to stop the long-planned offensive because of three dragons: they are not invincible and most of the humans are still concentrated on their petit feuds, etc. Maybe, the WW will have to do some racing agains time by the end of the season, but they still have good chance of success and thus they won’t stop until the cost of expension exceeds the benefit (or to put it otherwise, until they are beaten). Then they’ll retreat and wait for another opportunity, unless they are exterminated to the last one. Including babies. I don’t know how many baby WW we can expect, but even one would be hearbreaking, because some of our beloved protagonists will have to kill it. And then there would be a hanging question whether, say, Jon Snow is that much better than Tywin Lannister and Gregor Clegane, etc. I hope that the show wouldn’t confront us with something like that, but on the other hand this show has allways been merciless.
In my limited personal experience, it’s very common. My daughter will be 27 this year (I had my children young, hence my return to college later in life), and loves both Potter and ASoIaF; among my former classmates (virtually all of whom are in their 20s), I can’t think of a single ASoIaF fan who is not also a Potter fan. I think for our generation and our parents’, Tolkien was the, um, most common gateway drug to the fantasy world. For theirs it was Potter.
A sizable contingent of my Facebook friends are former classmates, and quite a few of my daughter’s friends are FB friends as well, so my Wall tends to have a pretty wide-ranging mix of posts on it. When Alan Rickman died I did expect to see some reaction from the “kids” who grew up reading Potter and eagerly anticipating each film, but even I was astounded by the worldwide outpouring of grief. We tend to develop lifelong emotional attachments to the stories that shaped us as children and adolescents; I periodically re-read my favorite children’s books, such as Heidi. Not only was Snape’s story arguably the most heartbreaking in the Potterverse, but Rickman played him so brilliantly that, for millions of Potter fans, his death really did represent one of many passages out of childhood.
And of course, there’s the part of me that just loves the fact that a brilliant, not conventionally-handsome Shakespearean actor in his 60s was deeply mourned by millions of people four decades younger than he was.
My son is 21 and learned to love reading largely from the Potter books (Brian Jacques’ Redwall series, being by far the most fun to read aloud, also played a big role). He’s a Thronie as well (though not quite as rabid as his Mom; Discworld is his #1 F/SF fandom obsession). Most of his college friends also seem to be into both…not to mention Doctor Who, Firefly, anime, LARPing, Broadway musicals, Shakespeare, Disney movies and a whole lot of other geeky pursuits.
Then again, this is an atypical, artsy college that would and did put Neil Gaiman on the faculty, and has no sports teams of any note. But I still think, from my contact with them on social media and elsewhere, that Millennials in general largely cross over easily from one fandom to another, once the initial resistance to fantasy as a genre has been breached.
I think Arya is just in awe because it’s Ed Sheeran on stage baha
Clob,
Hee, no, my husband really is a dear – couldn’t have gotten through the last two years of surgeries without him. But yeah I see how you might get that 🙂
The dragons had been dead for centuries at that point: they are much too late to be a factor. Moreover, there were plenty of dragons in the world when the White Walkers last were strong: but there is nothing to suggest that dragons played any role in their disappearance.
As for the Long Night, it is the cart to the White Walker’s horse: they are not back because the Long Night is coming, the Long Night is coming because they are back. Now, I do agree that they do not absolutely need to explain why the Walkers are back. However, the “why are they back?” probably shares a big part of the answer with “how do we make them go away again?” The answer to the latter is probably going to be the lynchpin on which the entire over-arching story hinges.
Wolfish,
Firannion,
Thanks for the info! I would not be surprised if this is pretty typical.
It does make me feel a bit old when I realize that I’d read the first two SoI&F books before I read any of the Harry Potter books. (I might have read Storm before the HP books, too: I read the first 4 HP books and Storm in the summer of 2000, but 17 years later, I do not remember exactly when I read any of them.)
Wolfish,
And you see those differences so early in the show, from the moment they find Arya hiding in a wagon with a helmet on her head. Sansa no doubt would have been appalled that she had such a brazen little sister. Interesting – aside from the obvious age differences between Bran and Rickon to the older boys, I don’t remember the other three having such different personalities, at least not at first; it took me a bit to tell them apart actually were with the girls, it was totally how they were like
But Sansa does think for herself, doesn’t work out though ( it did take her fathers death to wake her ).
She backs Arya to her dad, but feigns she didn’t see what happened and her wolf is killed, she was put between a rock and a hard place by Joff and Arya, telling the truth could have meant a severe punishment for her sister and alienate her future family.
The hound threatens her at knife point drunk and broken, yet minutes before she heard Lancel tell Cersei the war is lost, how was she to know that Edmures actions in the Riverlands would force Tywin to leave early back to KL with the Tyrells with him and surprise Stannis.
The main reason Arya did better is, one; she communicates better to the common folk and doesn’t dress like a lady.
second: she had Yoren protecting her, Sansa had absolutely no one, Sandor may have shield her and Shae may have gave some advice to her but until the battle Sandor isn’t going to go against his benefactors and Shae turned on her and Tyrion.
At the wedding Tyrion states she would have made Joff a good Queen if he wasn’t such an ass, the only folks who see her as stupid are Cersei , Joffrey and 50% of the fandom.
At the inn she’s trying to tell Brienne she’s in trouble and leave, Brienne’s a bit slow, Pod knew the situation and so did Sansa.
At the Eyrie she picked up on Cobray and in excerpts again she is seeing that Cobray may be double dealing.
I don’t think she’s as daft as many believe.
I can only go by what GRRM,Tyrion,Arya and Catlyn tell us; Sansa is smart, she’s gifted and except for sums picks things up quickly; she just can’t show or do any of that while a prisoner in KL, or stuck up in the Eyrie and she needs the correct info to make valid decisions.
Be nice if the books were out.
Wolfish,
Well of course it wasn’t just his HP fans grown up who mourned; he was a huge theatre actor on the British stage (and IIRC also on Broadway). I’d give a lot to have seen his version of Dangerous Liasons He later got into films; my first exposure to him was watching Truly Madly Deeply and falling head over heals in love with his voice and his actiing (he and his fellow actors managed to take a move that could have been covered in sap and sweetness, and made it itno a really powerful story about loss, death and our life after they are gone. ) So the outpouring of grief was genuine over many generations and many types of fans (oh also loved him in Robin Hood, the only really good thing about that Costerner movie was him playing the evil sheriff – oh how deliciuos it was to him say ‘because it hurts you ninny!’
Oh, my heart. I don’t tend to get too emotional about celebrities that I obviously don’t know personally, but dang. Rickman had me from Robin Hood and Sense and Sensibility on up. He was just one of those timeless types – it never occurred to me that we’d ever be without him. ? Always.
I’m a LOTR/Harry Potter/ASOIAF fan all around, and I’m not old, I’m 37! (My name isn’t Dennis, however, and I didn’t vote for you! There’s some lovely filth over here….)
As to the HP thread, I could not get into the books, but I loved the films, well except who they ended up with.
I’m not one for heavy magic even in ASOIAF I tend to buzz through dragons, I like the political story lines and the personal conflicts.
ash,
Oh, I’m very well aware that his fandom extended across generations!!! To echo Pigeon, I love him from Sense and Sensibility and many other films, and only wish I could have seen him onstage. And my children loved him from Robin Hood long before Harry Potter (let’s face it: he and Michael Wincott are the only reasons to watch Robin Hood, amirite?).
Pigeon,
I have ten years on you, and Harry Potter will always make my inner child squeal.
Hogwarts House: Slytherin
Ilvermorny House: Horned Serpent
Patronus: Fox
Wand: Dogwood with unicorn-hair core, 10 3/4″, rigid flexibility
Wow, me too. He had the perfect voice and physical presence for a character who is supposed to be menacing and enticing at the same time.
I did, however, have the good fortune to see Rickman in his last Broadway show, Seminar, in 2012, co-starring Lily Rabe and Hamish Linklater. He was as awesome as one could hope!
It took more than that. Ned’s death was a bombshell for Sansa in that it was her first realization that one of the chief morals of the fairy tales (beautiful people are beautiful people) was false. However, it took the destruction of several more fairy-tale morals to make her start asking if everything in the fairy tales is a lie.
Even at that point (which is basically where we leave Sansa in the books), where is she? She now has to think for herself: but she has absolutely zero schooling. Her brothers were trained to think about tactics and strategies: she never was taught to think about anything. Arya learned how to think for herself: but Arya clearly is a highly intelligent individual and thus highly curious; and curious minds learn to think on their own even if they are not formally taught. Sansa is remarkably incurious. She’s been dropped off in the middle of nowhere, not only without a map, but without map-reading skills. She is in for a nasty learning curve in the books, just as she had on the show.
ash,
Pigeon,
Wolfish,
Firannion,
heh, Rickman will always be ” ‘yippee-ki-yay?’ ” for me! He was great in many other roles, too, but Die Hard is where I first saw him way back in the mid 1980’s. He totally nailed that role.
Wolfish,
Did you ever see Men in Tights, a spoof on Robin Hood. loved it when the actor playing RH says ‘well, at least I have an English accent’. The English version that came out a few years later was so much better, but didn’t have Rickman.
The part where they repossess his castle. ?
ash,
Cary Elwes!!! Yes, he does spoof very well (see: The Princess Bride).
Wimsey,
Excellent point about Sansa’s lack of curiosity, to me one of her most annoying traits (perhaps because I’ve never understood lack of curiosity–it’s completely foreign to how I navigate life). That being said, I’m not a “Sansa hater,” and really don’t understand why she, of all people, arouses such visceral hatred in a certain part of the fandom.
Firannion,
Alan Rickman: Quietly heroic as Col. Brandon in Sense & Sensibility; really funny as put-upon archangel (?) in Dogma; and of course, Hans Gruber in Die Hard.
Ten Bears,
Oh forgot about Dogma!
I always wanted to see him play Crawley in a movie version of The Good Omen.
Wolfish,
Probably my favorite adaptation of a book and one of my all time favorite movies.
Shy Lady Dragon,
Here’s wishing you a speedy recovery from whatever ails you. How fortunate we all are that you’re posting prolifically despite it.
*************************************************************************
Sansa. The poor old dear really is a lightning rod, wheresoever one turns on the Internet. Since George deliberately created her to be the troublemaker of his House of heroes, that probably comes with the territory. So it’s absolutely spot on to not fault her for acting within the bounds of her character. BUT…
She’s infuriating for many reasons, especially her epic passivity. For five books and six seasons she’s rarely taken action, and when she has done it’s often backfired. Her decisions have been perverse. Her age was no excuse as her younger siblings were much sharper. Nor should rose-coloured glasses and fairytale dreams have prevented her from perceiving what people in her life were like. That Joffrey was sadistic (to Mycah), profane (calling Arya a cunt), vicious (almost killing Arya slashing at her with his sword), and a coward (sobbingly begging for mercy when Arya grabbed that sword and pointed it at him). The next day she saw Joffrey was also a liar and knew her sister told the truth. She saw that Robert was an indecisive, henpecked bungler who abdicated his decisions to others. That Cersei was overprotective of her son, vindictive, and wily in her proxy revenge on Lady. Sansa even managed to look past that because she wanted to be a queen.
Any girl of spirit would have begged her father to get her out of her obligation to join this family of monsters. Later everything went pear-shaped in KIngs Landing and JOffrey even killed her father Still, she wasn’t the type to physically escape, especially from a gilded cage, but I bet she could have convinced them she was unworthy of marrying the prince. And Sandor wasn’t the only one who offered protection and/or escape. Shae did, Baelish did early on when he didn’t have to frame her for murder to get her to flee to him. Later Brienne did too. Captivity is congruent with passivity. So is agreeing with an outlandish plan about which you clearly have major reservations (marrying Ramsay). By the way, I personally gave up on Sansa when she used that corkscrew she found only to get out of her chamber, but not as a weapon to get away.
I suspect many Sansa fans are fairly passive, acquiescing people themselves and do not see the problems of Sansa’s personality. The world needs people like that, but they are not leaders or movers and shakers. Like her, they see the physical beauty, the gentleness, the title, the grace. They see that she went from being played to trying to play others. Some have now become rather aggressive in promoting her as Lady of Winterfell or, Gods help us, queen. Never mind that many also think she and Jon should marry. Sansa is taking some action but still needed Theon to kill Myranda and induce her to jump into that snowdrift. She still used Jon to get revenge on Ramsay and re-take Winterfell. Using others to get what you personally want is not the Stark way, nor is it esteemed in modern society. Sansa is all Tully, like the jumping trout in the Tully coat of arms which is destined to be caught and served as someone’s dinner. By all means, if Sansa survives D&D should let her be Sansa and find some happiness, but not as Lady of Wintefell nor Queen of anything. Someone who seldom takes responsibility for herself or others should not be in charge of them.
Wimsey,
It’s not her fault she wasn’t taught can’t blame her; if you want to put blame then put it where it should be; Mom and Dad. Their society dictates she breed and tie in with a strong house to strengthen theirs ;down south and at least on Bear Island they give the girls some form of political education Lord Stark did not.
Wimsey,
Oh, Wimsey!
1) Where is it written that the Long Night is brought by the WW and not visa versa? Theoretically the Long Night should be an event of some astronomical cycle which coincides with the cycle of the Red Comet. The WW may have some influence on the weather etc., but I higly doubt that they are the sole cause of the Long Night and, untill the show establishes it other way round, I think we should consider this option.
2) As far as I could make it, there were no dragons during the first Long Night. The books and now also the show imply that the first Long Night happened before the rise of Valyria and the rise of Valyria was caused by the taming of dragons. Moreover, dragons first appeared in Asshai and Azor Ahai legend also emerged in Asshai, which implies that there should have been a major confrontation in that region. Therefore, it’s legit to assume that dragons were created as an offset to the WW and forced them to retreat immediately.
3) The dragons got extinct only some 150 years ago, which is not that much comparatively + the WW had to wait some time to be sure that new dragons won’t be hatched. Moreover, they needed time to grow there ranks, and for that they needed to find humans ready to sacrifice their children, and we don’t know how fast converted children grow into adult WW (many fans think that they grow faster than humans, but IMO it should be visa versa). So, 50 years (or more) to be sure that new dragons won’t hatch (at least in Westeros), 50 years (or more) for initial planning and preparations, and then a more active phase of terrorising the wildlings begins. And then, on the wake of Long Night the WW start attacking the Night’s Watch (the prologue of the books and show).
OK, it’s a theory, not a cannon and the books and show may deliver something very different at the end, but if not, I will be pretty happy with the explanation the show has provided already: the WW are humans and, as humans are expansive by default – be it the First Men, or the Andals, or Valyrians, or whatever. And asking why did the WW came back sounds very much like asking why did Putin started the war in Ukraine and what the West should do to upease his PTSD.
Inga,
does that mean I+L=j?
whenever i come here…..and sit and watch ….its all about who the biggest literate is…when all i want to do is express my sheer excitement of the thought of a scene with brienne and sansa and arya comes out of the shadows…after she sneaked into winterfell undetected and we get some really good dialogue
just sayin…..
dont mind me
its anzac day tomorrow……lest we forget
the woman that killed the hound
i can see arya not being all that fond of brienne in the early episodes….it wont be till one day when they are sneering at each other…the hound will walk in……i cant wait
they both think he’s dead…..and blaming each other…..i cant fucking wait?????????….this is what we should be talking about,,,,,not sansas brain
i was sure i would get a bite with that I+L=j line
and bran turns up….a lot of stuff will be happening at winterfell this season methinks
more than we think
if the leaker of season7 is fair dinkum………i’m gonna be extremely disappointed.
even i can think up better shit than that and i’m a builder
GRRM has stated that it’s magical, not astronomical. After all, how could comets affect seasons? Remember, the only astronomical way to get these sorts of seasons would be for the axial precession of a planet to wobble badly and at a very high rate. For example, Earth’s axial precession varies slightly, which does affect the propensity of the planet for seasonality, but over the course of 40K years. (This is part of what contributes to Ice Ages, if other factors lineup properly.) And that obviously is also what causes seasons: half of the year, the northernmost part of the planet gets reduced sunlight, and the other half of the year the southernmost part of the planet gets reduced sunlight. That is not something that a comet would affect. Here, the comet is just part of the prophecy: remember, we know that some “higher” powers can perceive the future.
That conclusion is completely illogical and a classic case of confounding correlation with causation. Here is a logically equivalent: both elephants and humans evolved initially from Africa; therefore, elephants caused the evolution of humans (or vice versa). Moreover, nowhere are we given to think that dragons were “created.” And nowhere at all are we given any indication that dragons had anything to do with the initial retreat of the White Walkers. If that were the case, then both the books and show should have told us by now.
Again, if something like this were to be the case, then the books and show should have presented something that indicated that the WW have been there all along, but in hiding for fear of dragons. Both should have given us something indicating that the WW are so acutely aware of the dragons. And, again, both should have given us something indicating that dragons had anything to do with the WW retreat. However, the WW and dragons seem to be unconnected.
Inga,
I can see you know your stuff! I can’t see anything I could attempt to read I’m afraid, but there has to be some significance to the photo. These pictures are to whet our appetites, but they weren’t picked at random and some have probably been carefully cropped. We already know Sam and Gilly are in the Citadel, why show them both reading books, which we would expect them to be doing anyway, if it’s irrelevant? ? I feel like I’m in an episode of Scooby Doo and we Watchers are all in their (very large) van trying to figure it all out! 😀
WImsey,
the last big winter apparently happened 8000 years ago in westeros….did they even have dragons then?
the responses i get kinda gives away what i mean
nilllll……i’m insignificant
George,
I agree with this.
Most of your comments were still during my sleepin’ time. You can bring up any topic you want. We’re all rabid for GoT conversation and that’s a reason why there are over 730 comments between the two threads about the same pictures. We have gone a bit off the topic of the pictures alone, but that’s what we do. 🙂
I’m also very excited to see a return to Winterfell by Arya. After last season ended I had some fanciful ideas of how she would do that. My main one included her returning in disguise as a boy. She/he then putting on some kind of a sparring display that impresses Jon and then he notices Needle and confronts the boy on how and where he acquired it. At that point Arya would shed the face in front of him. Hugs and tears and Yeh! I don’t think that will happen but I thought it was neat.
I’m really not sure how Sansa will receive her. She’s not in the desperate, fearful position she was when she arrived at Castle Black. She’s now comfortable at home and last she’d heard Arya was alive. I can almost see Sansa bordering on aloof upon seeing Arya. She may be happy to see her but not in the tearful, grab on and hug for dear life sort of way she was with the Jon reunion.
As for Arya and Brienne. Mmm… not sure if there will be any ill feelings. Brienne didn’t seem to hold any when speaking to Sansa about seeing her. If Arya is upset at all about her fighting Sandor then I’d think that could be cleared up pretty quickly. Arya did admire her for being a fighting woman, and defeating the Hound must have impressed her some…
Grail King,
You wrote: “It’s not her fault she wasn’t taught can’t blame her; if you want to put blame then put it where it should be; Mom and Dad. … down south and at least on Bear Island they give the girls some form of political education Lord Stark did not.”
Some blame, but not much. Case in point: Arya. For that matter, Barbrey Dustin in the books is a Northerner, and Cersei, Margaery, Olenna, Lysa, Catelyn, Selyse, even Brienne show that women could be astute and capable if they had the inclination and the curiosity. Wimsey’s point about Sansa’s lack of curiosity is spot on. Some young people like her even today live in a dream world, but Sansa would at least have gotten the lesson of necessity of being loyal to your house. Yet she sided twice with Joffrey against her own sister, and in the books brought Ned’s plans to Cersei. Those actions are inexcusable, especially in a precarious feudal world where betrayal can lead (and did) to death.
Stark Raven' Rad,
Sansa is the only the character in the Series that actually acts like someone her age and upbringing would.
Shy Lady Dragon,
Awww, feel better very soon, hugs !
Or maybe not? Perhaps they are simply people who find her character interesting and believable, including her many personal flaws, and not because they are similar to her.
It’s pretty unfair of you to pass judgment on people you don’t know like this.
jymion,
Can someone ban this obvious troll already ?
kathy,
I didn’t say it was necessary in any way. All I was saying is that IF Dany and Jon end up hooking up, there’s no logical reason for it to happen in the story at this point unless some kind of heir would come out of it. Just my opinion. I could care less about Nissa Nissa and all that other nonsense.
When I say heir, I’m not in any way referring to some magical savior prophecy. It’s simply…having an heir to continue the next generation. SOME of these characters need to have children at some point.
Based on your post addressed to me I think you either misread or misinterpreted what I was saying because my post had nothing to do with prophecies or complicated theories. Perhaps I was not as clear as I thought I was when I made that statement.
DaphNenya,
Thank you so much, it’s very kind of you! Hugs!
NorthRemembers,
I think that’s a good call.
The only one? That’s a stretch, and we also can’t relate their world to our own. Still, even in our world throughout history children have needed to become ‘things’ to survive circumstances that no one would believe they’re capable of.
As a girl that was being raised to be a Lady of a House, and accepting of that role, you can say that Sansa acted and reacted realistically to the circumstances and situations she found herself. However, she’s also been naive, submissive and complacent with her ever-worsening environment. There are different levels of bad for each person to finally have enough and become aggressively proactive to change the situation. Sansa’s tipping point didn’t show up for five full seasons until her made up (stolen) story arc with Ramsay finally got to her.
If Arya had been detained by the Kingsguard with Syrio or caught by the gold cloaks after witnessing Ned’s death and stuck in the Red Keep like Sansa, do you think it unrealistic if she had done everything she could immediately to get herself out of KL? She was young too and had the same upbringing. The difference being that she is not accepting of the role of a Lady. She’s a fighter. Perhaps she would have gotten herself killed, but perhaps not. From the moment she did get out she was fearful and defensive, believing everyone was out to get her. In their world that was accurate and in being defensive against that meant becoming something unimaginable.
Bran and Rickon found themselves in a somewhat similar situation to Sansa’s while at home in Winterfell. Bran not only had to choose to flee but it meant fleeing their home, and they did so immediately as they recognized the danger and acted. It was not an action beyond his age, it was an act of self-preservation and not being dumb.
As far as “the only character” I’d say all of Cersei’s children acted their age and upbringing. Yes, even Joffrey. I believe there are some comparisons with young royalty in our own world that can be made.
Sweetrobin is mentally damaged and stunted so I’d say he acts about how one raised in such a manner would.
Wolfish, ash, Pigeon,
I first saw Alan Rickman in Sense and Sensibility. I had liked the Colonel while reading the book, but this great thespian gave so many layers to the character: passion, loyalty, quiet sadness, even bravery. Then I watched the first Harry Potter film and he became my favourite character. I began reading the books, wishing they would have been published when I was a teenager, but immediately becoming a fan and alternating books and films as soon as I could get them. Alan Rickman enhanced (“fancy word for a salesword”) the character, sending me on a rollercoaster of emotions as his actions and secrets were piling up…
I remember how strongly I felt at his untimely death and how I mourned for him together with other fans on this site. Somebody (I’m very sorry that I don’t remember who) suggested that I should watch Truly, Madly, Deeply, which made me cry (I had been warned), but I was glad to see Alan Rickman playing another amazing part in a devastating story. I hope his benevolant ghost is walking among us and is glad that he is not forgotten.
WImsey,
If the WW and dragons are not connected, the whole story makes no sense and Dany becomes an absolutely excessive character. And the show has given hints that some connection exists. For instance, Osha said that the red comet ment dragons, which implies that there should have been some wildling folklore about dragons. But why would wildlings tell tales about dragons, when their main concern should be the WW? Karsi also mentioned that there were stories about dragon glass. Dragon glass kills the WW, fire kills the wights, so, here is another connection, etc.
As for the Long Night, I ment magically-astronimical, but even if it has nothing to do with astronimy, it’s cyclical nonetheless: it happened once, now it’s coming again. It is connected to the WW, it may be a side-effect of the WW creation or a precondition for their existence/expansion, but there are no hints that the WW have any control over Long Night or that they could shedule it whenever they want.
Clob,
Compared to Arya (super-ninja), Bran (super-prophet), Tyrion, Tywin, Littlefinger, Varys (super-plotters), Cersei-Ramsay (super-villains), Dany (super-duper), Sansa is an average human, not “super” anything. She can be submissive, confused, angry, prone to mistakes. She doesn’t stand out in any particular way. She’s not alone in this; Ned, Jon, Cat, Robb are equally human. I like Sansa.
I would argue that the divisiveness that Sansa inspires in the fandom very much parallels the divisiveness young women like her inspire in our own society, which probably isn’t quite as different from medieval society as we’d like to believe it is. It IS different in terms of structures of governance, of course, but human nature being what it is, how people wield individual power—whether through wit, wisdom, hereditary power, bribery, sexual allure, or any other number of ways—has changed little, if at all, in millennia. Sansa exhibits all the traits that have long been highly valued as “feminine”; some of these traits are endearing, some are exasperating, and some are downright infuriating. I suspect different fans’ reactions to her are in fact reactions to whatever different pieces of her personality rouse the most passion/pity/understanding/anger.
In that vein, I agree with Vincent Stark’s assessment that Sansa’s fans may simply be “people who find her character interesting and believable, including her many personal flaws, and not because they are similar to her.” My own favorite characters are Arya and Sandor, and while I see a lot of my childhood self in Arya, I certainly can’t say the same for the Hound. Empathizing with, and defending, a character’s motivations and flaws doesn’t necessarily mean that the character is reflective of one’s own self.
Wolfish,
I completely agree with you and with Vincent Stark . I find conflating emphaty and/or sympathy for a character (including the desire to understand their motivations and flaws) with someone’s traits and personality extremely condescending.
To suggest that liking problematic characters such as Jamie, Littlefinger or Cersei (to name but a few) means that someone endorses those character’s traits it appalling to me.
Fair enough. I wrote “I suspect” deliberately to avoid passing judgment or inadvertently insulting someone. And you’re probably right about believe-ability. But while the magical powers of several characters are not believable in our present day context, they work well in a mediaeval-style fantasy. If her younger siblings or Shireen or Lyanna M were similar, then Sansa’s worldview and actions would be more logical to me. Her making mistake after mistake was disheartening, but her disloyal acts, accepting the Bolton marriage, and her continuing entanglement with a man she knows is a multi-murdererare incomprehensible. After a series of bad experiences, most young people learn and grow. In S6 I was again coming around to Sansa, especially after her warm reunion with Jon. But then she went and misled him twice over military matters and again put herself at the mercy of Littlefinger. Normally, I would be indifferent because GRRM designed Sansa as a disruptive force, a function which she fulfills. However, as you probably know, many of her fans think she’ll be Queen of the North or even of Westeros and that that would be a good thing. Many also believe she’ll marry Jon. In as unpredictable a series as this, anything is possible. But after her pattern of behaviour for six years, IMO it’s delusional to think that she is capable of or merits such elevation.
I bent my wookie.
Tell me where in a society like hers an 11 year old can dictate what she is taught or must learn, no not some blame much blame, the Lord of Winterfell and the Lady of Winterfell failed the girls as far as real world education goes.
You’re comparing old lady Dustin to an 11 year old?
As far as Arya, if you think sitting in a wagon with a helmet on as a sign of intelligence due to curiosity well …no.
Seems people totally leave out Sansa’s curiosity about the letter and taking the chance to see who wants to help her, keeping in mind it could also mean her death, so she goes with a dagger hidden it her clothes.
As far as supporting Arya she did,to her father, 24 or 48 hours later she is presented to the King and she feign the truth, lets see tell the truth and Arya could suffer punishment either whipping, loose a hand, Arya’s direwolf would be killed on sight, or side with Joffery with the same outcome and also be ostracize with in the family, that was a no win situation that her sister and her betrothed put her in.
That’s why Ned told Arya that she has to support him no matter what and it’s clearly shown she did not, also Ned had no answer for Arya’s remark how can you let her marry someone like that. We also don’t know what else was said off book or show between Sansa and Ned to that incident.There were three innocent victims here; Sansa,Mycah and Lady.
Sansa knew the name of the ship and when and I’am aware that GRRM said she knew how many soldiers etc.BUT so did Cersei and it was Ned who divulged his plans to her not Sansa and he did that BEFORE getting his family out telling us he couldn’t let his children’s safety keep him from doing what he must do this was days before Sansa running to the Queen, really you worry about getting your enemy’s children out before your own that was idiotic.
Sansa running to Cersei did remove what small chance they may have had I say < 5 %, but it was a chance to get out but I think the results would be the same.
All the women you name are in fact grown women and not children like Sansa who is obviously on a learning curve (Marg had Olenna as tutor), so your comparison does not make sense. Arya’s written as the fish out of water that does not belong, and therefore has a comfortable lead on her sister when it comes to understanding real life outside of the bubble.
So, Grail King’s question still stands and is spot on: Why didn’t Cat, who herself was quite astute in the political game, do as Olenna did and teach her daughters what’s what?
I think it’s one of GRRM’s choices that only make sense from a Doylist point of view: the author needed Sansa to be the naive, sheltered girl, because, as Firannion said, he wanted to tell us of the eductaion of a girl who unlike Arya fitted the Westerosi patriarchal system perfectly and who must painfully realize that the world is not a song and hence must find her own voice.
If you aks me, many people who like Sansa expect her character arc to be one of emancipation in the end.
On the other hand, people who hate her, mostly only see AGoT-Sansa, a stupid little girl who never learns (most judgements in this comment section are about the character from Books 1 or 2).
And btw, Arya is one of the easiest characters to like in this series. She is clearly written as a fan favourite. So I guess fans of Arya’s are simple minds who go for the obvious? 😉
I like Arya and the Starks, but for me Arya’s a so common theme in a fantasy and not true to real life in a medieval era as portrayed, if she was true to that era she be dead ten times over where if she kept her head down, play stupid or playful she live longer.
Reverse the sisters situations keeping their respective personality traits and they both be dead by the middle of book two or season two.
Personally (and there are others who will likely disagree), I don’t believe either Ned or Cat purposely kept their daughters in the dark about the harder realities of the world; I think they were unprepared to transition them into that world quite as soon as it wound up happening, and once that transition began (Ned becoming Hand and the girls going to King’s Landing with him) they were quickly swept up in unexpected developments. So, yes, as several commenters have noted, their daughters’ lack of preparation for the realities of the court was definitely the elder Starks’ fault, but I don’t think they intended to keep them naïve and innocent for that much longer.
I’m not sure one can effectively compare Cat with Olenna, given their very different cultural and familial backgrounds. Olenna is very much a southron creature, worldly, cynical and hard-bitten because she has had to be from an early age. Cat is no sweet innocent flower, but really has not had the comparable life experience necessary to instill the same worldliness in her daughters that Olenna has in Margaery. In addition, Cat married the least-conniving man in Westeros, and Ned’s ways of navigating life deeply influenced how she raised their children.
One more note: I have no idea how many people on this thread either 1) have children or 2) remember being children, but it’s disconcerting to me to see how many comments reveal an expectation that children will simply do what their parents tell them to, or unquestioningly learn and apply the lessons their parents try to teach them. Children are neither clones nor robots; they are individual human beings with individual personalities, and they act accordingly. One of the reasons I find the Sansa/Arya dichotomy so fascinating is that, as an only child, I was totally unaware of how different siblings can be, in so many ways, until I myself had two children. Sansa and Arya are both very much their parents’ children, albeit in very different ways. And it would be nice (dreaming here, I know) if, by story’s end, they are united by their respective strengths rather than continue divided over what are ultimately superficial differences. Yes, superficial… because as different as their tastes, personal desires, and coping mechanisms are, at the core they want the same things for their family and for the world.
Joan of Arc’s story wasn’t “true to real life in a medieval era” either, which is precisely why we remember her. We like reading stories, both nonfiction and fiction, about people who break the mold. As historian Laurel Thatcher Ulrich famously wrote, “Well behaved women seldom make history.” The quote is usually misattributed and misinterpreted; her point wasn’t that a woman necessarily ought to “misbehave” or break the rules in order to have an impact on history, but rather, that so many women who have had positive impacts remain little-known. We don’t stay up all night reading stories about midwives and nurses; we stay up all night reading stories about sword-wielding cross-dressers and brilliant queens.
Grail King,
To be fair, George started the children at a stated age younger than he should have considering the situations he was going to put them in and the actions they would make. In other words, he wrote them as older than he aged them. He’s mentioned that it became an issue for him as he progressed in the books and even considered that ‘five year jump’ or gap to allow them to age/grow.
The show alleviated that a bit when they aged them up some when they started. In the case of Sansa, thirteen when the series began rather than eleven. Add on top of it that Sophie was fourteen when they filmed season one so by the third season or so she was already looking much like her current 21 year old grown woman. So with that we’re seeing a mature looking young adult on the screen in situations that were actually more suited for someone Sophie’s actual age rather than George’s unbelievable 11-12 year old child.
Mary Seacole and Florence Nightingale would probably disagree… 🙂
A Dornish Tyrell,
That occurred to me, but let’s face it: Those of us who stay up all night reading about Florence Nightingale and her amazing contributions to healthcare and the field of statistics are hardcore nerds, and don’t necessarily represent the majority of the up-all-night-turning-pages population… 😉
Wolfish,
Sure! But maybe it’s time to change the paradigm and start recognizing the important contribution of “lesser women” (either because they practised traditional feminine occupations or because their contribution was obscured by history in favor of their male counterparts) to humankind. 🙂
A Dornish Tyrell,
Of course!!! I assume you’ve seen Hidden Figures already. Granted, they weren’t “lesser women” by any stretch of the imagination, but the second part of your statement definitely applies (being obscured by history because of both sex and race).
Back to the topic of this thread, though… before it became an epic conversation about Sansa’s motives, strengths, weaknesses, and bad wigs: Any idea why in the group shot Dany, Tyrion, Grey Worm and Missandei all have brand-spanking-new black leather and additional layers, while Varys is still sporting his quasi-mandarin outfit and pointy-toed boots he’s been wearing since S1? One would think that 1) he’d be chilly and 2) he’d be as threadbare as Jorah by now.
I agree to an extent with you that in order to compare Olenna and Cat you need to take into account the cultural and historical differences of their respective regions… But maybe we can compare the Tully sisters.
The Riverlands, because of their location, were always at the mercy of different invader and were the spoils of war of neighboring warring Lords. A way the “River Lords” found to protect themselves was via marriage alliences. House Tully is the quintessential nobel house of the Riverlands. Their family motto is “Family, Duty, Honor.” And Cat is the quintessential Tully: she would do her duty in order to mantain her family honor… She was first promised in marriage to Brandor Stark and after his death, she was married to Ned, without her father ever asking Cat her opinion about the engagement of about her betrothed. Cat would marry his intended not matter what. She would do her duty. She was raised to be like that… Lysa, on the other hand, was the rebelious one. She was the one that tried to go against her family, her duty and her honor. Not only she fell in love with a parvenu, but she got pregnant and had to have an abortion. So, that valuable asset of House Tully was besmirched and as such.
I think this is very informative of why Cat never taught her daughter what’s what in a way Olenna did with Margaery. Cat could have never done it… It would have been completely alien to her. She was always the dutiful daughter and expected her own daughters to be like her: to value family, duty and honor above anything else… Sansa was, like her, the dutiful daughter (much more naïve, certainly.) Arya was the rebel one, and even though she never wanted to become a lady, Cat insisted in her to behave like a proper one (probably because she knew what happened to her own rebellious sister.) Teaching her daughters to behave like Olenna taught Margaery was out of the scope of everything she believed and held dear.
Ok, I’ll stop here… it wasn’t my intention to write a mini assay. You can ignore it if it so pleases you . 🙂
But he is using a much more muffled garment in his alone shot. He must have got cold once they finally arrived to Westeros. 🙂
A Dornish Tyrell,
Excellent points about the Tully sisters; sometimes the lessons we learn are not only those instilled in us by our parents, but just as often, those learned by examples of what not to do… and Lysa definitely fits that bill. One of the things that’s particularly interesting about looking at it from this point of view, though, is that neither Cat nor Olenna is rebelling against the rules of the game; rather, the psychology of surviving the game is very different for each woman. Olenna treats it as just that, a game, one in which each player holds her cards close to her chest and does not allow emotion to play a part. In contrast, Cat treats it as life itself, one in which emotions (love included) are integral. Olenna knows love isn’t part of the equation when it comes to noble alliances, and ensures that Margaery is steeled against heartbreak in marriage. Cat, on the other hand, has made a concerted effort to love her husband in addition to respecting him and bearing his children, and is at least partly responsible for the development of Sansa’s romantic ideals. Of course, she has also ensured that Sansa believes in those ideals only within the strict paradigm of an “honorable” marriage, which is why I wrote, many posts and many shots of whiskey ago, that she would never run away with a troubadour, no matter how handsome his face or romantic his songs. Her Aunt Lysa, on the other hand…
What a coincidence… I see that The Princess Bride is on CMT this evening. 🙂
EW just did a recent article on the shows most likely to be impacted by the writers strike which are: The Walking Dead, American Horror Story, Star Trek Discovery, The Mindy Project, The Inhumans, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Zoo, Late Night Talk Shows, Saturday Night Live.
The shows that have been reported to EW as safe due to completed production or far enough along not to be affected are: Game Of Thrones, Twin Peaks, Orange Is The New Black, Orphan Black, American Gods, Outlander, Preacher and Stranger Things.
James Hibberd (EW’s editor at large) was asked about GOT S8 and if it would be impacted by the writers strike due to them writing scripts etc and he replied that he originally thought it would be but his been told it’s not expected to be impacted.
Mel,
I’ve gotten to the point where I’ve kind of ignored it as it concerns GoT. Even if there is/was a chance it could delay season 7 I don’t think it would be for long. Isn’t the longest strike something like 100 days?
As far as season 8 goes… As Liam referred to it, season 7 and 8 are really like one season split in two. At this point, this close to the series finale, everything they’re doing now is directly tied to how the show ends. They know exactly what they’re going to do to the point of how many episodes are left. I wouldn’t be surprised in the least if they don’t have a good chunk of it written already. D&D said at SXSW that the two of them are writing episodes 3-6. Nothing is going to stop them from having the scripts complete when they’re ready or able to get started.
We have our doomsayers here but I don’t think we have too much to worry about. If they’re delayed it shouldn’t be too long.
Wolfish,
Joan was 17 died at 19 and I read her history like many, Arya is 9, 11 in show not even close to Joan of Arc.
Don’t know about others but it was tragic for Joan to die at 19, hate to see that happen to Arya fictional or no.
I think he messed up there in the books, sometimes I don’t want to know what’s in his head LOL.
Grail King,
I wasn’t making a direct comparison between Arya and Joan of Arc as fictional and non-fictional figures, simply as females whose arcs do not reflect what was normal or acceptable in medieval times (or even today, for that matter!).
Arya had better not die young like Joan did, or as we all know, Parris is divorcing GRRM… 😉
Wolfish,
I tend to read about male and female killers, bit more intriguing than nursing history.
ASOIAF is only second fantasy series I’ve ever read like GRRM I read LOTR series.
I will also read anything on King Arthur and the circle of people in his story lines.
Wow I thought Outlander be affected since they start later than Thrones.
Understood, but Joan payed the price.
Well George said he only told her he wouldn’t. LOL to keep peace.
Grail King,
LOL! Yes, nursing history musn’t sound very exciting compared to ASoIaF. In terms of Florence Nightingale’s contributions, though, the statistics part interests me far more than the nursing part; she was actually a pioneer in data collection and visualization, and used these methods to make vast improvements in healthcare during the Crimean War. (It’s the math nerd in me that loves this): http://thisisstatistics.org/florence-nightingale-the-lady-with-the-data/
I’m afraid I’m really, really far behind on my reading (fantasy or otherwise); if you’re into King Arthur, I’m going to assume you’ve read The Once and Future King, one of my mother’s favorites (she holds a master’s in English literature). Way-back-when I was a Tad Williams fan, but it’s been so long I can’t even make a good recommendation. The latest fantasy books I’ve been enjoying are by Guy Gavriel Kay, a Canadian writer whose historical fantasy has a lot more history and a lot less fantasy than ASoIaF (not that that’s either good or bad, just different). My favorites of his are Tigana, The Lions of al-Rassan, and A Song for Arbonne. I plan on investigating Ursula K. LeGuin next; I’ve read a few of her novellas, but none of her series.
TOAFK read many years ago, in my book shelf along with many others, right now I’m splitting time between Outlander book 2 A Dragonfly in Amber and The Lady Elizabeth by Allison Wier.
Grail King,
Wolfish,
In my case, I’m more of a public health/health science nerd (yes, math is important for data collection and analysis, but I’m more interested in the biological/societal aspects of disease.) 🙂
I’m retired now so I no longer have to read communication / electronic books, 40 + years of formulas and calculations still in my head but I can’t remember my cell #, my wife can remember every phone number from our dating days to today no problem, along with a bunch of other numerical data used for daily life.
Wolfish,
Wow, your comparison between Cat and Olenna is spot on.
I would never have thought to make a parallel between these two characters, but yours is very accurate.
This thread has so many insightful comments, like yours. 🙂
Shy Lady Dragon,
.
That would be me – so glad you watched it and enjoyed it despite the tears (We went to see it with a friend who is probably more cynical and less likely to watch something that is sappy than I am. But at the end of the movie, all three of us were crying. And I hope for the same .
“Tailchaser’s Song” was the first fantasy novel I ever read. Hee hee.
Wolfish,
A question Ive wondered about for a while – why did both girls go to Kings Landing? If any of the children were to go I’d suspect it to be Robb and Sansa, the two oldest. (yes yes I know that means it would be the same story, but still would like to know what you guys think)
As far as making judgements of people based on what characters they like – I don’t understand the purpose of doing so, same as I don’t understand why people are judged do to political persuasion. People are way too complex to be put in peg holes. Just sayin
Clob,
!!!!
Wolfish we have similar reading tasts – Once and Future King was a book I first read in HS and have reread many many times over. And I do love Guy Gabriel Kay – not so much his last couple, but from Under Heave and earlier, genius stuff
ash,
If I remember correctly, Sansa went because of her betrothal with Joffrey and Arya went because Ned and Cat wanted to make a lady of her and also find her a suitable candidate for a future marriage arrangement. I guess they thought that the capital was going persuade Arya to become a proper lady (Ned and Arya had a conversation about that, with Arya telling Ned that “marrying and having children wasn’t her.”) After all, girls in most parts of Westeros were treated as commodities for political leverage.
It wouldn’t make much sense to bring Robb to the capital since he was the eldest and therefore, in the absence of his father, the acting lord of Winterfell.
And the only male Stark ( not counting Jon ) with an education on battle tactics.
Very true!
Grail King,
This totally makes sense to me! I still remember my grandfather’s old address (a house I loved with an incredible view of L.A.), and I haven’t been there since 1982.
Vincent Stark,
Thank you! As I’ve noted elsewhere, this is the first fansite (other than Rotten Tomatoes about 15 years ago) in which I’ve participated regularly, and it’s because there are so many intelligent people here with thoughtful insights. If nothing else, participating in this forum makes me really think about the story, the characters, and both the historical and fictional backgrounds that serve as inspiration for it, instead of just empty-mindedly absorbing it. (That’s all right too, but that’s what The Fast and the Furious movies are for…)
Pigeon,
OMG, I read that when I was about 17 (shortly after it was released)!
ash,
I would think that 1) Robb remained at Winterfell as heir, and 2) both the girls went because a) Sansa was already informally engaged to Joffrey (gak) and b) Arya needed to be introduced at court and start learning how to be a proper lady (gak).
ash,
I assume you know that Guy Gavriel Kay worked with Christopher Tolkien to edit The Silmarillion following J.R.R. Tolkien’s death. He was in his early 20s, which speaks volumes about his incredible talent!
A Dornish Tyrell,
LOL! Just scrolled down to your comment. Clearly, great minds think alike. 😉
Grail King,
Yes!!! Won every battle.
(chokes)
A very happy birthday to dear Rory McCann and Aidan Gillen who are 48 and 49 respectively today. ?
Pigeon,
Oh, Good Lord.
(heart rate soars)
And yet, Ned took an even younger Bran to watch a beheading because as he said, he would not remain a boy forever. Ned was already teaching a 8(?) year old boy the harsh realities, but his older daughters were still being protected. There was an evident gender bias in how the children were being educated imo.
Ned knew what kind of a place King’s Landing was, yet the only educator that accompanied the girls to such a place was Septa Mordane, and if they did pay attention to what she was teaching, they would have realized that her teachings were restricted to “how to be a good Lady” and that Septa Mordane herself seemed to have little to no knowledge of how the real world worked.
Purely from what was shown, I am not sure the elder Starks even realized that there was something missing in the girls’ education.
ghost of winterfell,
Excellent point, although if memory serves, Cat asked Ned if it was really necessary for Bran to witness the beheading. So perhaps Ned was more likely than Cat to practice gender bias.
And of course, Ned lost both his siblings as a very young man, and might have had rather strong opinions (we may never know) about Lyanna’s acceptance (?) of the relationship with Rhaegar outside the bonds of marriage. I would refer you to the conversation A Dornish Tyrell and I had this afternoon about the differences between Cat and Lysa. 🙂
Here you go:
Rory:
http://rorymccann.tumblr.com/post/24880810097
Aidan with a kitten:
https://librarykris.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/media_httpiamediaimdb_oriei-scaled500.jpg?w=1400
Wolfish,
Here ya go. ?
Rory:
http://rorymccann.tumblr.com/post/24880810097
Aidan with a kitten:
https://librarykris.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/media_httpiamediaimdb_oriei-scaled500.jpg?w=1400
Pigeon,
Just tried to respond, but I think it got caught in the SpamNet. Great. Now I have a comment in moderation and a comment in Spam.
I was gone for a number of hours and responded to seven people in a single post, because I hate to be a thread-hog and make numerous comments in a row. So much for efficiency…
Anyway.
/wipes drool off chin
/refills Dornish red
Wolfish,
I hear ya. I can’t ‘quote’ anyone anymore without it getting stuck in moderation, and I believe they get stuck there until after the Wall falls over and sinks into the ground, providing ice cubes for whatever form of Satan hangs around under Westeros. Or something. ?
Wolfish,
I have gone through all the comments in this thread and thoroughly enjoyed reading them!!
Both Ned and Catelyn influenced by their siblings in deciding how to educate their daughters? Possible, but not very fair to the daughters lol. Sansa especially was handicapped by her own education.
My take has been that Ned probably did not take more than a perfunctory interest in his daughters’ education, he concerned himself more with the sons ( this was after all normal for those times) and it fell on Cat to oversee the matter.
Love the new Sandor photo!
Interesting discussion. I’m looking forward to more SanSan on the show. Just a note, Rory is playing down in age on the show, the pilot script lists Sandor in his 30’s. Also Rory when asked if Sansa and Sandor would RECONNECT, answered, “about the LOVE… yeah there might be.” I think the two actors look great together. too.
Also after Blackwater in the books, Sansa wished Sandor was still there and wondered if she was wise not to go. She thought about him often and romantically, too. I think they will call back to Blackwater on the show, which was done as a parallel to La Belle et la Bete (Beauty and the Beast) in GRRM’s script.
“As the boy’s lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.”
And finally, GRRM said “there’s something there” on the show, too:
“GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: And I do know there’s all these people out there who are, as they call themselves, the SanSan fans, who want to see Sandor and Sansa get together at the end. So that’s interesting, too.
TOM MERRITT: The TV show has sort of played with that a little and probably stoked those fires, I would think.
GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, sure. And I’ve played with it in the books.
TOM MERRITT: Yeah, yeah.
GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: There’s something there. But it’s still interesting to see how many people have responded to it.
VERONICA BELMONT: I’m not going to say that that hasn’t crossed my mind. Maybe I need to go join one of those fan sites and learn more.”
Stark Raven’ Rad,
I think it’s possible – I think that I can say this without it being a spoiler – that as book Sansa is lying low in the Vale (as far as anyone can lie low in the Vale it being so far above sea level) under an assumed name and as a bastard – and thus being treated as a bastard, it is possible that when/if those pesky books 6 and 7 of ASOIAF see light of day book Sansa will have learned perhaps some humility, perhaps some worldly wisdom from her experience as a “bastard”. I think D&D didn’t really have time to do the Vale plot so they changed Sansa’s story line to that of her friend Jeyne Not-appearing-in-the-Series. (I didn’t mind though I know a lot of people did). I think even with stories/TV shows one person’s meat is another person’s poison. I have never disliked Sansa (book or show) but I never really warmed to Stannis, (though I think Stephen Dillane did a good job) either in the books or the show. But other people like/dislike different characters.
I’m not convinced it was time issue why D&D sped up/skipped the Vale stuff, it’s pretty obvious Sansa and the Vale are coming North in the next book and will play a part in taking Winterfell. For the show though it made more sense to have her suffering under Ramsay rather than some random character who the audience (non-book readers) will never have heard of. I strongly suspect by end of S6/Winds the plot of both mediums will be in the same sort of place.
ash,
I’m so glad you reminded me it had been you. Thanks again! Hugs. I keep a fond rememberance of that evening, in spite of all.
Pigeon,
Many happy returns of the day for our dear Houndie and lots of amazing roles! Cheers!
http://winteriscoming.net/2017/04/25/will-potential-wga-writers-strike-affect-game-thrones/
“David and Dan are in the WGA regardless of whether they’re serving as writers or executive producers, and there are a million jobs left for them to do on season 7 before its premiere in July. Just because it’s been shot does not mean the strike wouldn’t affect things this season.”
Uh oh….
James Hibberd has stated S7 will not be impacted by this proposed strike, he’s very close to the show and one of the most trusted sources of information. Nothing to fear here.
Link?
Jack Bauer 24,
You seem to be going out of your way to try and freak people out about this. Perhaps it would be a bit more reasonable to wait until an actual decision is made.
I didn’t think it’s obvious in the books. Without having seen what they did on the show I don’t think I would have considered The Vale jumping into the fray. There really aren’t any strong indicators of such an action as Littlefinger seems to be set on the goal of gaining control with the use of Sansa/Alayne. Sansa herself seems once again to be more concerned with love and/or a marriage match than anything, as we can read in TWoW sample chapter. In that chapter all she talks or thinks about is doing what “her father” (PB) wants, thinking about/talking to suitors and dancing. There’s not even a mention or thought of Winterfell or her siblings, just one random thought, “Alayne loved it here. She felt alive again, for the first since her father… since Lord Eddard Stark had died.” I’m not going to say that the book won’t get to the point where they go and assist with Winterfell, just that the story arc has a ways to go to get to that point. Also, without the events on the show I don’t know that I’d expect it.
I don’t think it was a matter of not having the time to do Sansa’s Vale arc as much as there was/is just very, very little to it. What little is there is dealing with suitors, which I could say is probably not of great importance to waste show time covering. I think D&D looked at what could be done there and decided they needed to do something to involve Sansa more meaningfully.
I won’t blame them for altering Sansa’s storyline into the Jeyne swing. Had they stuck with her own and shown much of it I would have thought it rather dull. To be honest, I’ve thought everything in The Vale/Eyrie except Tyrion’s inclusion has been dull. That scene with Baelish, Royce, Sweetrobin and his falcon was so much bleh!! I skip it now every time I watch the episode.
The problem I have had with the switch is how it changed show-Sansa. Her personality, focus and intentions were all changed and fueled by her hatred of Ramsay and the events of that arc. Even if book-Sansa eventually ends up in the exact same place s7e1 Sansa is, it would seem like she’d be in an entirely different mental condition. Will she be hardened and bitter and sullen like on the show? How will her relationship with Littlefinger get to the point where she supposedly hates him and doesn’t trust him, but for some inexplicable reason lets him hang around?
I had that impression from the books Clob, and had predicted it well before S6 aired, it was the only logical next step in my opinion. I do think it will play out differently in the books but I believe the Vale will assist with the re-taking of Winterfell.
Agreed. We’re aware of it and there’s nothing we can do. If there’s a delay there’s a delay. We’re seeing reports that season 7 shouldn’t be effected so we can go with that. Even if it is, the point they’re at should mean it won’t be delayed long, as opposed to just about to begin or in the middle of filming. As it concerns season 8… they’re several months from beginning to film. A “short” writer’s strike won’t stop D&D from writing in their living rooms or prevent scouting and preliminary scheduling.
Jon Snowed,
My impression is that Littlefinger is up to No Good. If his immediate plan works in his favor I could see him just as soon attack Winterfell for himself. *shrug*
A Dornish Tyrell,
Ok that makes sense; didn’t pick up on the reason why Arya went (tho do remember her comment about marriage and children not being what she is all about) I did also wonder why on earth she’d go with Robb to fight, and not staying with Bran and Rickon (yes they were well cared for and she had no idea what Theon was up to, but still seemed off to me)
Wolfish,
No I did not realize that! Wow, yes an amazing talent even at that age
Wolfish,
🙂
I forgot to tell you that your comparison between Cat and Olenna was spot on!
Jack Bauer 24,
James Hibberd has stated S7 will not be impacted by this proposed strike, he’s very close to the show and one of the most trusted sources of information.Nothing to fear here.
Link?
http://ew.com/tv/2017/04/24/writers-strike-delayed-shows/
Yet when she and Sansa are having the conversation about Ned and it’s ” all I ever wanted “, she did not attempted to clue Sansa about the realities of Queenship or marriage or political life down south, they had what two weeks to give the girls a crash course and from all indications they didn’t get it.
I didn’t like they bypassed her Vale arc but I understood why they did it Though it hurt both LF and Sansa’s storyline )
What I hated the most: having Sansa kneel in the forced wedding, and giving LF others words especially overlooking Moat Calin; Sansa Stark knows who she is The eldest daughter of Lord Eddard and Lady Catilyn the Blood of Winterfell, they could have had Sansa say it under her breath to the viewers.
+1
@Clob:
I didn’t think it’s obvious in the books. Without having seen what they did on the show I don’t think I would have considered The Vale jumping into the fray. There really aren’t any strong indicators of such an action as Littlefinger seems to be set on the goal of gaining control with the use of Sansa/Alayne. Sansa herself seems once again to be more concerned with love and/or a marriage match than anything, as we can read in TWoW sample chapter. In that chapter all she talks or thinks about is doing what “her father” (PB) wants, thinking about/talking to suitors and dancing. There’s not even a mention or thought of Winterfell or her siblings, just one random thought, “Alayne loved it here. She felt alive again, for the first since her father… since Lord Eddard Stark had died.” I’m not going to say that the book won’t get to the point where they go and assist with Winterfell, just that the story arc has a ways to go to get to that point. Also, without the events on the show I don’t know that I’d expect it.
================================================
I always thought that was Sansa’s role once she hit the Vale and also after meeting Lady Olena.
The way GRRM was writing the elder Stark children each with a dubious partner / mentor especially Sansa and Arya.
Sansa gets her home and family back and together at Winterfell with the Vale.
Arya Revenge and Justice
Bran and Jon busy trying to save the realm from Winter.
My Tin foil: Jon or Bran may have to fight against each other as one of them may turn.
Sansa sacrifices her life to be the Ice Queen to bring peace, but is allowed to travel south either 3 times a year bringing Spring, Summer and Fall; or once a year bringing Winter the Persephone arc.
Where is Gendry?
I tended to believe the poor doomed Septa was clueless to the harsher ways of the world too, right up until soldiers were running through the castle. Rather than screeching in panic or wringing her hands wondering what was happening, she caught on immediately to the grave danger Sansa was in and ordered the girl to her room to lock the door. It kind of redeemed her with me for being so critical with Arya about the needlework. I never expected that Septa’s head would be on display, but such was the nature of a rampaging Cersei Lannister. I figure almost anyone who had lived any length of time in that world was familiar with the dangers.
True: but that would not have been part of Ned’s reasoning. In absolutely no way did he foresee anything like what would happen: if Ned had, then he would not have gone. Ned did not trust the Lannisters, but the extent of their duplicities astounded him.
In truth, leaving Robb behind would have seemed like a “win-win.” Robb would get on-the-job training for being Lord of Winterfell, which not only involves a lot more than battle tactics, but often never involves battle tactics. However, as Robb was doing it as a deputy, it would have been easier for the advisors to correct youthful mistakes.
It’s interesting to see that Jaime has Widow’s Wail.
I’ve argued this before on this site, but I think it would serve the dramatic potential of the final battles with the White Walkers better if only our main protagonists wield Valyrian Steel, and the rest of the soldiers are equipped with rudimentary dragonglass weapons only.
I know a lot of people suspect that Sam is going to discover the means to forge Valyrian Steel but, personally, I would find that turn of events a little cheap.
It’s probably going to happen whether I like it or not, since they made a point of Sam taking Heartsbane with him to the Citadel. But I’m still holding out hope that he has it only so that it ends up in the hands of one of our potential heroes, e.g. Jorah, and that Valyrian Steel will remain a rarity.
But perhaps the fact that Widow’s Wail has resurfaced could indicate that Valyrian Steel won’t be readily available when they face the White Walkers, since if Valyrian Steel swords become ten a penny then they could’ve just left Widow’s Wail wherever it had been hiding since early Season 4 anyway.
So Jorah, originally meant to inherit Longclaw from Jeor before being banished and it given to Jon, may well end up with Valyrian steel in the form of Heartsbane. How in the heck did I not really think of that in any depth before? Thanks!
Grail King,
Re: your 4/24/27 4:02 pm comment
At the risk of beating the horse I’ve already killed, your observation about BookSansa’s screwup (running to Cersei to divulge Ned’s travel plans for his daughters) is exactly the kind of unknown variable that made it imperative that Ned get his OWN daughters out of the Zone of Danger BEFORE altering Cersei to the imminent danger to HER children.
Had he done so, Sansa would never have had the opportunity to foul things up. There are any number of other unanticipated complications and unintended snafus that would’ve been avoided had he simply gotten Arya and Sansa far away, right away.
Any excuse would’ve worked. Ned “Fudge-the-Truth” Stark could’ve easily gotten both daughters out of Dodge before the big showdown.
Long and short of it is that a prudent father would have thought “lemme get my girls outta here before I do anything.”
Kinda hard to blame Sansa who’s (11 – 13 ?) years old.
Pigeon,
It would be fitting if Jorah ended up with a Valyrian Steel sword after all.
But the way I figure it, it’ll probably find its way into Daenerys’ crew one way or another, whether it ends up being wielded by Jorah, Grey Worm, or even Daenerys herself.
The Targaryen conquerors all wielded Valyrian Steel swords and there’d be a symmetry to at least one Valyrian Steel sword ending up in each of our three main factions.
Sam isn’t going to wield it. And unless it’s going to end up in The Mountain’s hands, it won’t be used by the Lannisters either. If Heartsbane is to be used in the wars to come then I figure it’ll most likely be used by one of Daenerys’ crew.
Of course, if they go down the route of Sam finding the key to forging Valyrian Steel then it could just end up being melted down as part of his experiments.
No, not Neds, GRRM to move the story along to put more focus on the younger Starks. : )
I don’t think a few Valyrian steel swords would be enough they need thousands.
It was cheap in history when other special weapons were needed to survive, somewhere at sometime secrets were discovered hidden that helped or hindered man kinds existence or progress.
They don’t need Valyrian steel or dragonglass to fight the wights. We don’t know how many WW there will be on the show but we’ve only seen 13 plus the NK in one place at the same time… That is if we assume the silhouettes behind the NK were all Walkers when the one dropped off the baby (at wherever that place was). I was hoping to see more that “that place” btw.
Grail King,
It’s only my personal opinion, but I feel that if they have an abundance of Valyrian Steel weapons then it would render the White Walkers among the most useless villains in the history of film & television.
If every man and his dog is carrying a “magical” sword that can kill them , then all dramatic potential from their presence in the final battles is removed.
We’ve already seen Sam and Meera kill White Walkers with dragonglass weapons. But we’ve also seen one of the Children of the Forest killed having failed to pierce a White Walker’s armour with such a weapon. Therefore there remains some dramatic potential in the average soldiers being equipped with dragonglass weapons, at best, as a means to kill White Walkers.
As Clob points out, we don’t know how many White Walkers there are. If our heroes were fighting an entire army of White Walkers then obviously every soldier would need to be equipped to readily fight and kill them.
But if there are relatively few of them, acting as the Night King’s lieutenants on the battlefield, then we need not have every soldier equipped with Valyrian Steel and the dramatic focus therefore remains on our main protagonists who are the ones most readily capable of killing them.
Jaime, Brienne and Jon have been built up throughout the show as these great warriors/knights. Whoever potentially wields Heartsbane will likely be the same, be it Jorah, The Hound, Grey Worm etc.
To have these characters enter the decisive battles on a par with thousands of other Valyrian Steel wielding soldiers and conscripts would be anti-climactic, in my opinion.
Obsidian, in real life, is also a brittle material. There’s a good reason why, in subsistence cultures, people favored flint over obsidian for making arrowheads, spearpoints, cutting and scraping tools: Flint, though harder to work, is much more durable. Obsidian flakes beautifully, and makes wicked sharp edges; but the examples that one sees in museums are usually chipped along the cutting edge. An aesthetically pleasing, gorgeously symmetrical obsidian dagger would more likely be used for religious ritual than for day-to-day work, hunting or fighting, I would imagine, if flint were available for harder use.
So there’s that aura of magic around the material; but in combat with the forces of the Long Night, it seems unlikely that one would get the chance to stick more than one WW with a dragonglass blade before it shattered. Didn’t Sam’s just sort of melt away, or am I just remembering that from the books?
Wouldn’t the most satisfying scenario be something like Jorah saving Jon’s life in battle and Jon giving him back Longclaw to symbolize the honor of House Mormont being fully restored?
Of course, if that implies Jon being swapped Heartsbane, we then have to figure out what tinfoil trail leads to Heartsbane actually being Dawn in disguise…
I agree with your points about an abundance of Valyrian steel ultimately cheapening the storyline, if that does indeed happen; I suspect it won’t, though, and that if Sam does discover the secret to making it, its key ingredient will turn out to be a rare one.
About Widow’s Wail: It would have made no sense for Widow’s Wail to be buried with Joffrey, especially since the Lannisters hadn’t had a Valyrian-steel sword for centuries. What I’d like to know is, how did Jaime explain the disappearance of Oathkeeper? I absolutely love the significance behind giving it to Brienne (not to mention their poignant/sexy last exchange at the Twins), but doesn’t it seem highly unlikely that Cersei wouldn’t have noticed it was gone?
Firannion,
The limited capabilities of dragonglass weapons would add to the dramatic potential, in my opinion, while still being effective enough for the exploits of our Valyrian Steel wielding heroes not to become too unrealistic.
Skilled soldiers would be able to take down a White Walker, like Meera did, while others might succeed in killing a few, more by luck than judgment, like Sam did.
But our protagonists still shoulder most of the burden for dealing with the White Walkers.
Bear in mind I’m picturing the soldiers carrying dragonglass as a secondary weapon, so that they can kill the wights using proper steel and only resort to the dragonglass if they encounter a White Walker on the battlefield. Which means they might only need to use the dragonglass sparingly anyway.
Sam’s dagger survived the White Walker attack, but he ran off without picking it up again. And he gave the rest to Bran and co. and to Jon before they went north of the Wall.
I don’t think Longclaw will end up back in Jorah’s / House Mormont’s hands. I think Jorah will respect his father’s decision to give it to Jon and probably wouldn’t accept it back.
I don’t think Jorah will reclaim his role in House Mormont. Lord Commander of a new Night’s Watch; Lord Commander of Daenerys’ or Jon’s household guard; wandering the globe again, downcast in the wake of Daenerys’ death; dying heroically protecting Daenerys… there are a load of interesting ways Jorah’s story could end that won’t lead him back to Bear Island and House Mormont.
And if Jorah’s not going back there, then I don’t think Longclaw needs to either.
My words should have been won’t cheapen the story just based on actual history.
At least to me.
Well, actually I think that if Cersei asked him about Oathkeeper Jaime would simply tell her the truth, that he gave it to Brienne. Cersei wouldn’t like it, but I don’t know that Jaime gives a rat’s ass anymore; I expect Jaime to care much less about his sister’s opinions this season than in the past, and I expect Jaime to finally break from her near the end of the season, just in time for White Walker action (hey, he’s carrying Widow’s Wail for a reason y’all, and to me it says subconsciously “I’m reuniting with Oathkeeper soon, you guys.”)
Given the nature of this story, I really doubt that this sort of “final battle” is going to happen. It has to be something consistent with the story(ies), after all!
Stories and histories are very different things! Arbitrary is fine in history: reality is all plot and not story. However, the conclusion here (and in every modern story) needs to be a culmination of the character evolution for the main characters. Look for something that Faulkner would write, not Tolkien!
What do you believe will happen instead?
Wolfish,
Wow i never thoughg of that…interested in how he spins that one
Jon, Daeny and the other primary protagonists are going to learn whatever the full truth of the White Walkers is. That is not just how they came to be, but why they left in the first place and why they came back. Once they learn this, then they will be in (as they have been in throughout the series) some damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-do-not conundrum or set of conundrums, in which they feel that all of the choices are wrong. Destroying the White Walkers probably will be an option: but somehow it would be a bit too cliche if that is the one that they take.
We do have a few cards on the table already. We know that the Walkers were created to fight an evil: oh, and that evil is the “good guys” (and the bad guys and the neutral guys). We know that the Walkers are analogous to the Unsullied: i.e., altered from normal people into fighting machines: only in this case, the fighting slaves turned against their creators as well as against the original evil they were designed to fight.
We still have a couple of well-placed guns out there, too. What is the deal with R’hllor? It does not like White Walkers, but it’s not exactly very nice, either. What is the truth about the Prince that was Promised? Look for that to have a very ironic fulfillment.
In short, think of what a Faulkner story with theses sorts of plot elements would be like. That won’t be right: but it will be much less wrong than thinking of what a Tolkien story with these sorts of plot elements would be like! 🙂
I agree that this is precisely what George has in mind for the end of the books…
I’m not so sure D&D are going to follow suit, though. Are they really going to end the show without the Final Battle? Both Davos and Jon in the show have teased the “Great War” that is coming…
Then again, George has compared his “bittersweet” ending to The Return of the King more than once…and there is a battle there, no? (Albeit, yea, it’s not the Final chapter in the book, of course)
Maybe this is why George is obviously suffering from writer’s block? Because his original intended ending by now seems commonplace after the endless speculation for years?
Wimsey,
I agree that there’s likely to be more to the resolution than one climactic battle where Jon kills the Night King, mankind is declared winner by default, job done and everybody can go home.
But I still believe that there will be some major conflict(s) as part of that resolution.
It may be that sacrificing tens of thousands on the battlefield will be part of the damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-do-not conundrum they face.
I’m not usually one for schadenfreude, but I am going to have a good laugh at all the disappointed people if the saga doesn’t end in a clichéd heroic bloodbath. I’m already encountering readers of American Gods who hated the ending because it wasn’t, shall we say, quite the ultraviolent catharsis that they were anticipating. And look at what the movie version of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows did to the climactic duel scene: swapped irony, nuance and Harry outsmarting Voldemort for flashy pyrotechnics. I really, really hope that genocide of the Others does not turn out to be the answer to Westeros’ problems.
Wimsey,
Another possibility – perhaps foreshadowed by Uncle Benjen’s info-dump to Bran – is that a bunch of humans will have to volunteer to get the DG-shard-in-the-chest treatment and become half-wights to effectively fight the Army of the Dead.
(Yes, maybe I’m obsessed with Dragonglass, but it’s been mentioned too many times in too many different contexts to be window dressing.)
In completely unrelated news, I am super excited for American Gods on Sunday. It has so many of my favourite actors that I am even willing to overlook Kristin Chenoweth.
I was lucky enough to attend a sneak-peak screening of the first episode a couple of weeks ago, followed by a Q & A with Neil Gaiman and Bryan Fuller. It’s every bit as trippy and bizarre and outrageous as one might wish: no holds barred.
Yay! That’s exactly what I wanted to hear. ☺
Ten Bears,
My bet is Melisandre