If there’s one thing Game Of Thrones viewers have complained about during season 7 — well, not the only thing, but one of them — it’s how quickly travel is being done. For no episode was that criticism more prevalent than it was for episode 6, “Beyond The Wall,” where it was loudly decried that Gendry’s run back to Eastwatch, the raven’s flight to Dragonstone, and Dany’s arrival beyond the Wall was impossible in what seemed like a short amount of time.
For his part, director Alan Taylor knew that “timing was getting a little hazy,” but the production team worked the natural environment into the storytelling as an explanation of sorts.
“We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall,” Taylor told Variety in a recent interview. “I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there.”
The scenes north of the Wall also were meant to carry some emotional heft, Taylor said, underscoring the fear and uncertainty felt by Jon and his fellow travelers at being trapped in the middle of a frozen lake and surrounded by an army of the dead.
“In terms of the emotional experience, [they] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments,” Taylor said.
Overall, the timeline “worked for some people, for other people it didn’t,” but Taylor did point out that for the people who were very concerned about how fast a raven can fly, “there’s a thing called plausible impossibilities.”
“[That’s] which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities. So I think we were straining plausibility a little bit, but I hope the story’s momentum carries over some of that stuff,” Taylor said.
“It’s cool that the show is so important to so many people that it’s being scrutinized so thoroughly,” he added.
“Beyond The Wall” also racheted up the tension between Arya and Sansa, but what struck Taylor the most about filming the episode and the scenes between them was how much Maisie Williams and Sophie Turner have changed over the series’ run.
“I was there in Season 1 and 2 when they were kids,” he said. “They were great at doing what they were doing, but they’ve evolved so much as actresses as well as characters. We’re pushing into deeper and darker things, and they’ve really grown to be able to do that.”
However, Williams and Turner are close friends in real life, “so when you say ‘Cut,’ they start laughing and dancing and listening to music on their phones,” Taylor said.
Since he was clarifying timeline issues, Taylor also took the opportunity to address a fan theory that exploded across the internet after “Beyond The Wall: that the eyes on Jon’s Longclaw sword changed color or “opened” when Jon was hauling himself out of the frozen lake.
“That is so funny, somebody else mentioned that to me and I haven’t got a clue what they’re talking about,” he said in an interview with Insider. “I can say that there was no intention for that to be the case.”
Interviewer Kim Renfro suggested that Longclaw was slightly frosted over, and when Jon emerged from the lake, it was splashed with water and washed away the frost, and Taylor seemed to agree.
“I think that’s a very good theory and I’m gonna go with that one until I look at it more closely and see if I can figure out what’s going on,” he said. “But I spoke to somebody earlier and he was convinced it was a really loaded symbolic moment of Longclaw.”
Taylor also touched on his work in earlier seasons of Thrones — he was directing episodes as far back as season 1 — and how what seemed to be small character arcs at the time have grown into massive, series-defining stories. Especially, he noted, two characters in particular.
“Well, every once in awhile you get a glimpse of the scale [George R.R. Martin] was working at,” Taylor said. “So it’s true — all of the characters have such big arcs and he’s got them so mapped out in his head that the story is functioning moment to moment but also in these grand story gestures over several seasons, and that’s what makes it so rich.”
Taylor added that during shooting episode 10 of season 1, he and Martin were talking about the series and Martin “mentioned in passing, ‘Oh well it’s all about Dany and Jon Snow’ and at the time I thought, ‘Really? I thought it was about Sean Bean and Robb Stark?’ But he knew from the very beginning where he was driving and now we’re starting to see that come to fruition. We know that it’s circling tighter and tighter on Dany and Jon and their partnership is starting to form, you know, ‘fire and ice.’ ”
Read the full Variety interview here and the Insider interview here.
Hodorish
So Dany and Jon is GRRM’s endgame? What a shock.
Teleporting is abysmal but the Winterhell plotline takes the cake for worst thing this season. It is a mess.
The Longclaw eyes thing is asinine. Just throwing that out there.
I have to wonder if everyone complaining about the timeline (Gendry/Raven/Dragon flight) would have really been happier if it was drawn out longer. If we had seen the sun rise and fall over a couple of days, would that really have made the episode better? I think not. People just like to complain.
Alexis,
Some people always want different things than what D&D are giving.
This show is too popular for this fandom to be good.
I watched the episode by myself, haven’t talked to anyone, stayed away from social media and reviews, but I can imagine this has been hotly discussed.
My honest feeling while watching the episode: for the first time across the seven seasons, I felt like I was watching a plot device void of any logic. Even aside from timeline issues, there were too many things happening that made no sense. It might have looked stunning, but this was on the level of a dumbed-down Hollywood blockbuster. I can imagine GRR Martin was not happy.
That is exactly what I wrote when I first saw it posted in the chat. It appeared rather obvious to me as his left hand/arm splashes water all around and on it at that very moment.
Alexis,
I usually have a problem with travel but more when it’s not explained (see LF going through war zones and hostile territory off screen).
Gendry + Ravens + Drogon works for me just because they did take the time to show it. I do think involving Bran (as a raven scout and message carrier) would have helped for those “complainers” though.
As cool as that would have been, that’s up there with Jon’s blood forming into the shape of a wolf. LOL
There was no REASON it would open it’s eyes. Jon didn’t die, no one has said a baptism beyond the Wall was part of any prophecy, etc. It was just a splash of water.
I have a son who thought the same thing. He’s a loyal watcher but doesn’t delve into the spoilers. He thought Dany and Jon’s romance was too rushed and it didn’t make sense how fast things are happening altogether this season. He is disappointed.
‘Really? I thought it was about Sean Bean and Robb Stark?’
See? Even Alan Taylor was fooled into thinking some characters were major ones. 🙂 It’s confirmed then – it’s all about Dany and Jon Snow!
And yet some people still hold onto the believe that Ice & Fire equals only Jon, so we’re seeing the adaptation of ASoIaF as “A Song (Story) of Jon” rather than “A Story of Jon & Daenerys.”
Alexis,
There are any number of ways they could have gotten Dany to the scene that would have been more plausible than what they did. All that requires is for the creative team to put some care into the details.
Like, on 24 I can accept that Jack Bauer can drive anywhere in Los Angeles in 30 minutes, tops. That’s within the limits I’m able to suspend disbelief. I cannot, however, believe that Jack could drive from Los Angeles to New York City in 30 minutes, no matter how much narrative momentum the episode might have had up to that point.
Tar Kidho,
Totally agree. It ruins the illusion when the writing is so dulled down just to check plot boxes. Yes, it’s pretty looking, but it totally lacks the intended substance.
Tar Kidho,
How about people stop assuming what GRRM likes and doesn’t like. If you don’t like it, so be it…but unless you know the man personally, stop projecting your own opinion on him in order to validate it to others.
Bran has very ambiguous omniscient magic now, so why not stretch his powers a little further and make the most of it. All D&D needed to do was make Bran have a vision of Jon in danger in the near future, and then contact Daenerys through her dreams. Show her a vision of Jon on the frozen lake with the army of the dead, then as soon as she woke up, she’d leave on Drogon without needing to wait for Gendry or a super-speed raven to contact her. The flight to the Wall would take about a day, so the timeline would make sense.
While we saw Jon in DS only from episodes 3-5, he’s been there for weeks – just enough time for the two of them to get to know each other and develop some feelings. I think it’s fair to assume they’ve had interactions other than what we saw in those episodes. As Dany said to Jon when he was saying good-bye, she’s “grown used to him”.
Of my issues with the episode, the timeline is not one of them:
1) They didn’t camp at all on the way from Eastwatch to the battle. It was less than a day, maybe a half-day
2) Gendry ran balls out and collapsed. Sure, it was over terrain and in weather he’s never seen, but I’d still buy a 3-4 hour run.
3) Remember, Jon sent Gendry before they made their stand on the island.
4) Davos and the Maester get the raven out as fast as possible. Stop using the Wikipedia entry for homing pigeons. This is a world where seasons last 10 years. And who knows if a day is even 24 hours in this world?
5) I bet those dragons can seriously motor.
I’d buy they were stranded on that rock for no more than 18 hours. They spent the night. They had fire. They packed food. They had snow to eat.
I’m much more irritated with Arya-Sansa having no coherent plot and for Maisie Williams’ acting style of “Talk really slow and bug my eyes out.” I’m much more irritated with Dany and Tyrion arguing AGAIN.
The timeline be what it be at this point.
Let me rephrase that for you. Until now, the gist of the tv show remained true to GRRM’s story-telling style: great intrigue and action supported by excellent dialogue and reasoning. The past episode didn’t, in contrast to previous show-stopping episodes like Blackwater and Hardhome.
WorfWWorfington,
Yeah, I agree with that rationale regarding the timeline. I’m more consistently upset that Dany never gets windburn 😂 Someone get her armor and a visor!!
So, the Longclaw effect was post-prod shenanigans or a simple reflection oddity during filming? Funny.
Although I believe much of the “raven speed” issue (and Gendry as the great Athenian messenger, Pheidippides!) would have been resolved if Dany took matters into her own hands and independently decided to fly to their aid, or stationed a dragon or two at Eastwatch….(or simply commanded Drogon or R&V to snatch a wight and fly back!) I enjoyed Taylor’s direction of this episode. Of course, I’m biased by anything situated in the mountains, but his take on the landscape was magnificent and sweeping. I must admit I was planning my next Iceland trip during my rewatch! I’ll forgive some of the nonsense in lieu of the wonderful background!
What about frostbite after a night under the stars on a frozen lake?
WorfWWorfington,
Agree.
Jack Bauer 24,
FFS! Forever complaining and whinging! This is a FANTASY drama. Do you understand what the word ‘fantasy’ means? – Not real, fictional, made up, etc. etc.
Do everyone a favor on this website and ‘teleport’ yourself down a ‘plothole’ 🙁
Ugh, so much whingeing going on here since Sunday. Get over it & just enjoy! Seven hells…
sj4iy,
I agree. He had cameo in Sharknado and he likes Wild Cards. I wouldn’t be surprised if he liked Sand Snakes.
co,
That would literally be deus ex machina.
Alexis,
I think it’s more that they shouldn’t have written themselves into the constraint in the first place. As a writer, if you know you need to get a human one place, then a raven to another, then three dragons all the way back, you fix it before that situation ever arises.
Have Dany waiting at Eastwatch. Done. Gendry takes a full night to run the distance they walked in a day (at least that we saw). Then Dany makes it back during the fight.
Maybe they had a good reason to make the distance so far, but it didn’t come across in the episode. Normally I don’t care (like with Littlefinger in the earlier seasons or even Varys at the end of season 6) but this episode had easily fixable problems.
I don’t want to call it lazy writing like so many people (I mean, just look at the great writing of Jorah denouncing Longclaw and then killing a bear, the sigil of his house–very poetic). Some of it is perfectly tight. So, I get frustrated when other parts aren’t. I don’t understand why or how it could happen on a show like this. It’s the fact that most of the show is so great that things like this make me (and many other people) so frustrated when they cut corners.
Black Raven,
While I´m also not a fan of the constant nagging people display over the logistics and the minutia as I do perceive it to be disproportionate most of the times, I do have to defend Jack Bauer here. Not because I´m on line with his point of view but because the word “fantasy” does not mean that a world which is still fundamentally working with the physics and laws we know can forget them all of a sudden. It´s about internal consistency.
Yes, there are dragons, there are frost-zombies, green nukes and undead heroes, but it works within the framework set by the series, by the rules of its world. This is the gist of what most people who are REALLY REALLY upset about this last episode will tell you: just because it is “fantasy”, it does not mean that the magical elements shouldn´t be consistent with the established world. So, the argument of just saying that it is “fantasy” does not cut it, sorry.
So please do not take this as an offense, I do not mean any, but the argument of GOT being a fantasy-show and thus screwing up internal consistency sometimes is just not very convincing if you want to keep someone you perceive as whiny from doing this whining all the time.
The more important argument would maybe be, imo, WHY exactly it is such a huge drama that some consistency is flaunted when there are not any other political consequences attached if the catch the wight on day 2-3 or day 15. This would be my problem with the “whining”: yes, it was all very convenient and a tad too deus ex machina-y in this episode and it is a defintiely worthy of some criticism, but after all, this was a condensed setpiece that had virtually no consequence on any other place in the whole of Westeros outside of its outcome, so screw it for once if ravens can travel at the speeds of a fighter-jet or normal raven-flight. The outcome is the same and I don´t see why catching a wight day 2-3 is worse than 15 in this context. Thus the question is more or less, how much some can and want to suspend their disbelief; some can and want to quite some extent, some won´t, it´s very subjective.
Looper,
Having Dany with dragons at Eastwarch doesn’t make much sense. If she was already convinced to come with dragons there why would she let them go alone?
I think his decision to make the timeline fuzzy was an unfortunate one. If it was clear that they had been on that rock for a couple of days, it would have reached level of “plausible impossibility.” I know filming night scenes is maybe impossible for filming in Iceland but some throwaway line about how long they’ve been there seems justified to me.
Agreed…great example with Jorah and the fiery bear.
In the Eastwatch episode, the way Dany longingly/fearfully looked at Jon/Jorah made me hope for her taking it upon herself to assist in the mission after they left. It could have even led to the same results (saving most, V dying) but it would have put Dany in the assertive driver’s seat, believing Jon. Instead, she had to be convinced via a desperate raven. A bit weaker, imho. I want to believe that she’s better, more anticipating, than that…especially regarding her ambitions as a good Queen.
Black Raven,
While I agree with you in terms of your response to the original poster, the argument you used is one I see a lot. And it needs to stop.
Just because something is a fantasy–whether book, tv show, or movie–doesn’t give it a right to not have rules. We can accept dragons exist without allowing our other characters to appear where they want without reason. If Jon suddenly gained the ability to fly in the next episode, that would be breaking the rules.
Yes, it’s fantasy, but things need to be earned, and rules need to be followed. The fact that GoT is popular is because GRRM set up a rich world with a history that doesn’t contradict itself. When anything can happen as described in “it’s a fantasy, what do you expect?” then there are no stakes. Robb Stark suddenly becomes the Hulk during the Red Wedding and lives. Why not, it’s a fantasy show, right?
No. He made his mistakes and suffered the well-earned consequences. Same thing with traveling distances and all other issues that people toss away as “there are dragons and you’re worried about THAT?” Yes, I am. I can accept there are dragons in this world, they’re part of the rules, but no one explained THAT and therefore it doesn’t fit.
Oh, my timeline is stretched. I can make it work.
But here’s what I’d rather see happen. (And in a 10-episode season, might have happened)
Gendry runs. Raven sent. Then we cut to Dany leaving. All good. All the stuff happens.
Then, we cut to Tyrion and it’s obviously hours later. Varys brings in a dead raven. It’s the one Davos sent. Varys says it made it to the Greyjoy ship and then died on the deck. Theon brought it to the castle.
Tyrion: “The Queen got a raven this morning. She left hours ago, as soon as the seamstresses finished her Elsa coat.”
Varys: “This is the raven Eastwatch sent. That’s Davos’ sigil.”
Tyrion: “Then who sent this one?”
Cut to Bran with his eyes white. He says aloud: “He needs you. He is not ready to fly….” A pause… “Thank you. Goodbye.”
Cut to Benjen.
As I said, I can make it work. I think they left enough room and no one has ever established how fast ravens travel and dragons can fly as fast as the plot needs them to fly.
But there were other ways to be cooler…
Does GRRM have any right to be unhappy with anyone but himself at this point? Seriously? Unless he was willing to give the show writers his rough drafts of the next two books, what they hell are they supposed to do? Yes, they are going it alone now. Yes that means that it’s going to be very different, without GRRM’s writing as a foundation. But only GRRM is to blame for that.
mau,
It’s what I came up with while writing that. I’m sure there’s an even better answer, given time to think.
But in your point, you ask a decent question: why didn’t Dany just go do it in the first place? She was pretty much convinced already. They’re getting the wight for Cersei, not Dany. At the very least, keeping my original point, she could’ve gone to Eastwatch as backup. The whole sending Gendry back thing could’ve been set up before it was needed, as their plan-b (as in “If we run into trouble, Gendry will run back, and Dany can come help us, so we don’t risk the dragons unless we have to.”)
The problem I’m now noticing, having thought this over way too much, is that I think they created a lot of this situation for shock and awe. They wanted it to be a surprise when Dany swooped in at the last second, instead of a well-thought-out plan the characters made, leaving the original plan a bit of mess.
WorfWWorfington,
Seriously. Having Bran orchestrate the whole thing would’ve been GREAT. He needed something like that, and it would’ve tightened the whole episode immensely. Let’s get you into D&D’s writer’s room for next season.
Yes please. Bran and Theon are sitting around twiddling their thumbs . The Theon plothole is horrible. He came to find Dany 2 episodes ago and weeks have passed in the show and he still hasn’t talked to her about Yara.
WorfWWorfington,
This is already pretty decent, thanks for writing it down.
So have her fly out a bit later, on her own, while they are about to set off on their mission from Eastwatch, because of her anxiety for the safety of Jon and Jorah.
WorfWWorfington,
While I would love all that (and more episodes) I think people are forgetting the simply fact is, at the end of the day GoT simply doesn’t have the budget.
Look at this episode, the CGI here is top notch. These action pieces are on par with what movies do, movies that cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Now I don’t think HBO has ever released logistics on how much this show costs, but with everything I’ve read it makes sense that to get these pieces and to show the dragons how we want to see them cuts have to be made. Also if we got all those conversations, I guarantee you people would still be complaining.
I wish HBO gave them a blank cheque and said “spend what you will” – but they didn’t and at the end of the day everything costs money. In the making of video, there was a funny part where the Directors say they want a wight bear, the VFX guys F off we can’t afford it. I wonder how many of these conversations went down, especially last season with them not being able to afford both Ghost and Wun Wun. “Giant or Wolf guys, pick one.”
Great write up though, all that would of been beauty to see.
Per the game of thrones wikia site:
“As for waving aside “a lizard as big as a 747” as an example that the storyline is fantastic to begin with, they already established in their fictional world how fast dragons are – and then broke their own rules. TVTropes.com terms this the principle of “Magic A is Magic A” – that even in Science Fiction & Fantasy worlds in which “magic” and magical creatures exist, once a set of rules have been established for them, those rules have to be followed consistently. Otherwise, it undermines the integrity of the story: by the same principle, for example, Highgarden could have sent a raven to Dragonstone when it came under attack earlier in the season, and Daenerys could have flown her dragons to defend it rather than let her Tyrell allies be slaughtered (and Highgarden is a shorter distance from Dragonstone than the Wall).”
Jonsa shippers are shook.
This was they way I saw it as well! They left at dawn, ran into the bear late morning to noonish, encountered the WW/wights at early/mid afternoon, Gendry got back to EW at dusk, raven flew all night to DS, Dany left w/dragons in early morning, arrived at lake ~midday, Dany+all except Jon arrived back at EW in about an hour or so, Jon arrives at EW on Benjen’s horse around mid/late afternoon. It really all makes pretty good sense.
I have some sympathy with the director because obviously a lot of time and effort goes into making an episode and he’s not responsible for the script. He does seem to be saying that they were well aware of problems, though, and I sense a top-down attitude of “don’t worry, people will think a big fight and an ice dragon are cool.” That’s not great.
I do wish the ravens weren’t treated as the biggest problem because it was clearly more than that. Previous issues with odd pacing, inconsistent characterisation, silly plotting, poor suspension of disbelief, and lazy dialogue all rather came to a head in this episode – hence the venting.
The relative length of the day with respect to local Planetos day and night is irrelevant to the question. The question is the internal consistency of local time to local geography.
I agree that the time from when Gendry starts his run to Daeny arriving is a brief period, which is of course why many find the speed od Daeny’s arrival implausible.
I also agree that both Sansa and Arya are acting out of established character. My only hope is that there will be a payoff in a counter-con played on LF. Otherwise I’m right there with you on the sloppy plotting charge.
ginny,
tl;dr I am glad HBO gave Westworld time to catch its breath before season 2
Slightly off topic. I was very pleased that production for Westworld was pushed back to allow more time for season 2. Both WW and GoT have changed production scale. I don’t know that GoT could pull off that kind of postponement this late (because of the young actors they use) but I DO think fans would still be interested after a moderate (1-2 years) postponement and still watch the show. Now would a postponement have helped GoT writing? IDK.
Hindsight is 20/20 and after GRRM delays in AFFC and ADWD, I wonder if HBO (prior to season 1) would have preffered to proceed *assuming* that TWOW would not be done by season the time season 5 production started? Would that have allowed the writers more time to plan their own setup for the ending?
I will say that GRRM is a master of filler (the exciting kind that has wikis devoted to its detail) so maybe HBO figured they had enough content even if there was a delay?
Tar Kidho,
People will bitch about anything. Everyone here is a scholar/writer/director.
Ill say it again. The show is too big. Not just in popularity but also in scope of story. The journey north of the wall should have been over 2 episodes to do it will the realism that all the haters want.
They dont understand the logistics involved in putting this season together apparently and trying to tell the massive story while showing it convincingly on screen.
Bran going into Danys dreams and telling her Jon was in trouble would have no doubt been met with bitching as well. Why doesn’t Bran just do that with Jon? Better yet, Cersi? Have her off herself.
A man will bitch about everything if its not his own idea or personal preference.
Tamwell Sarly,
I would be very careful about citing the Game of Thrones Wikia. It is effectively ruled by a deranged, delusional, and bitter individual who treats it as his own blog whilst stating his opinions as facts. Moreover, he rules the site with an iron fist, whilst inventing many ludicrous conspiracies against him. I’d take his opinion with a very large pince of salt.
Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,
Can I buy you a beer? Beautiful soul.
ghost of winterfell,
That could work.
Well it’s easy when you have plot to change some detailes.
Looper,
Jon said to Tormund they are getting the wight for both Dany and Cersei.
Looper,
They do seem overly keen on withholding information to create “surprise!!” moments this season. Surprises built on poor logic feel cheap. It’s good to build foundation – preempting isn’t the enemy they think it is.
Sansa and Arya are actually completely in character. They hated eachother as kids and now as adults, they are still the same people, just with more baggage and both more full of themselves.
ginny,
Just like the “fantasy” moniker isn’t an excuse to forego internal consistency (see Looper’s comment above), the absence of source material shouldn’t be either. I’m not a GRRM fanboy, nor a D&D hater, I just got ripped out of my usual GOT viewing sensation while watching this episode.
And that’s all I’ll say. I normally refrain from getting involved in these discussions because I feel it reduces my enjoyment of the show. Tar Kidho out.
Knight of the Walkers,
That place is pretty good until Season 4. The Jaime-Cersei-Joffrey Coffin scene sent them over the edge and they haven’t found their way back to the cliff yet.
It’s also not just CGI budget. It’s actors demanding more money. It’s cast and crew burning out. Yes, it’s D&D wanting to move on. It’s the realization that they don’t have to wait for GRRM any longer.
And some of the choices DO rely on actors. If it weren’t for Iain Glen, I’m sure the Jorah storyline might have been chucked by now. Same with Diana Rigg and Oleanna. And the actors who play Edmure and Osha do have other careers and might not be able to come back for as long as a better plot would let them.
Oberyn´s One Good Hand,
I agree that the “but it’s fantasy” stuff doesn’t hold a lot of weight. That said, Planetos clearly doesn’t operate by the laws of physics/science that we know about in reality. There are plenty of made up fantastical elements – resurrection, zombies, flying fire breathing lizards, endless winters etc. I don’t think having specially fast ravens or dragons which could fly incredibly fast is too unreasonable. Of course, the problem being that neither was really established by GRRM or D&D so it feels jarring (to some) when we see it
As for poking holes at the “realism” of the show, I see way more people complaining that the NK found his army some big chains than I do complaining that Dany can zip around on dragons with no effects to her appearance. Her face should be windburnt and her hair should be a mess. I’d also expect her eyes to run/tear up with the wind in them constantly so her makeup should be all over her face. Now that’s a stupid nitpick but it’s far more illogical to me than the magical leader of a mysterious ice zombie army having access to steel chains. Yet the Internet hive mind patched into the chains (and ravens) as the impossible to believe aspects of the story.
Mawk,
Sure. Come down to Austin.
I think we can all say we’ve missed Alan Taylor terribly! Here is to hoping he returns for Season 8. I’ve also hoped since the early days that Tim Vat Patten returns for the Series finale someday.
Mawk,
I’ll happily throw in a cold one as well!
JonSnowsForeskin,
Exactly. Also those are iron ore chains, not steel 😂😂😂
If time can be circular (as in Bran, Hodor…”hold the door”) then I don’t see why time can’t also fast forward!!! It’s FANTASY!!!!!
Ugh. Fire & Ice. Even the friggin’ director doesn’t get it.
Oh, really? I know nothing of the ownership/management of wikia site. I’ve always gone there to read the show summaries which, until this latest episode, always seemed to be fairly neutral and mostly free of opinion.
Amazed at all the complaints. Don’t know why I am surprised. I just enjoy the show. To each their own I guess. Looking forward to the next episode.
This was the first time I’ve ever been disappointed in an episode of GOT. I felt like I was hate watching an episode of the Walking Dead.
The running Gendry, Raven, Dany fly-on-a-dragon-to-save-the-day was too much. And I have defended the “Jet Pack” for the last couple of seasons as it really didn’t bother me. I hope Taylor is done directing episodes. The whole explanation of “ya, this is stupid and really lazy filmmaking, but hey, the rest of the episode was awesome!” makes it that much worse.
It was egregiously bad. And it made things like Jon’s death fake out and longclaw just sitting there waiting for him seem that much worse. They would have been better off if Dany came in out of nowhere to save the day.
It’s not an excuse. It is the reality of the situation.
TheRealHotPie,
Thats not what Taylor said lmao.
TheRealHotPie,
Look as has been alluded elsewhere I suppose after the scene with Tyrion and Danny they could have shown her asleep and having a dream of John and his men being killed and having her wake up in a cold sweat. Certainly then she could have gone straight to her dragons and taking off so that when she arrived people would have been happy with the timeline. But would that in and of itself made this go from what people apparently think was just an awful episode to being amazing?
Granted I think that would have been kind of cool especially if they showed a quick shot of bran with his eyes glazed over before cutting to Daenerys dreaming but at the end of the day it should not ruin the show for everyone the way they shot it.
To be brutally honest I didn’t like the episode at all, more specifically I hated the plan to capture a wight in the first place, and it undermined everything we saw in this episode.
I was wondering why on earth they would try this, and when we lost a dragon I understood. It just felt so contrived and I hated it.
Dany didn’t want to go North, despite saying she believed Jon about the WW, she was too worried about Cersei, and in the end it only took a message by raven to get her there? Nope, not having it. I would have been happier if she came to that decision on her own and followed them to keep them safe.
And where was Bran? Why wasn’t he watching over them through the eyes of a raven? He could have spotted the danger and sent a raven to Dany from Winterfell. That would have made the timeline slightly more believable.
Sorry to be so negative I really am, I just did not like this episode, and Alan Taylor’s comments haven’t helped.
Clob,
Right so GRMM spent years writing about the pitfalls of incest and how it resulted in bad things and how long have we heard the breaking the wheel crap – only to now learn that that was all lies? Incest is good and let’s keep the incestuous couples on the throne to spew out mentally deranged offspring here and there to keep the ‘peasants’ on their toes? If GRRM intended this all along than he’s a bigger disappointment that the garbage that’s been on our screens the past few weeks.
So the show is NOT exclusively about Jon Snow? His stans will riot!
But this is such a cheap trick
Honestly, it would have made more sense for Quaithe to invade Daenerys’ dreams than Bran. That’s not a power Bran has as of yet, I think. I *think* show Quaithe has this ability…
I do think Bran could have been scouting and relaying messages (via warged ravens) to Daenerys but the way it was done worked for me.
Edit: Bran could have been like Matt Damon in The Martian
mau,
Which only proves that no matter what they did people were going to bitch. People hated the idea of the wight hunt from the very beginning and so it doesn’t matter what happened or how they shot it they were just going to be mad.
I think it would have worked better if Dany came to the conclusion on her own, during the convo with Tyrion, that she should stand by at the wall just in case things went south. So that way when Gendry runs to the wall she is already there.
This would have shown more trust on her part by preemptively taking action to hedge against a dire situation. Also a confirmation that a leader has to take risk to protect the people. As soon as Gendry arrived she could have take off; plus would have been a cool visual of her mounting the dragon on top of the wall and falling off into flight.
i mean its not like at any time the viewer didnt think Dany wasnt going to arrive in time. The shocker was the hit dragon, not that Dany arrived to save the day
If Bran was involved in any telepathy or total situational awareness at this stage, the whole Littlefinger storyline becomes pointless and the rest of the show would be “why didn’t Bran warn them?” “Shouldn’t Bran of foreseen this?”
They have to go with Bran can’t control his powers yet or the rest of the story is pointless.
This show has always had a looming problem: the reconciliation of the fact that the show works because of the character development and political intrigue with the fact that the denouement involves massive archetypal fantasy elements that undercut the human story. I think the real problem lies with the writers’ attempts to keep the human story going as the fantasy elements rise. The decisions they’ve made in this attempt are not always the right ones for maintaining that balance. Their attachment to Cersei, for example, and the manufactured conflict between Arya and Sansa….they could have been far more bold in their choices, and surprised us, but they didn’t.
That said, I remain a fan and I will watch until the end, and I will enjoy the spectacle for the sake of the spectacle, too. Because it’s a beautiful show with amazing effects and attention to detail, and I deeply appreciate the hours of entertainment it’s provided.
I’ve long been a follower of this website and rare commentator. While the off-season is great here, the season itself is depressing. There are and continues to be so much nitpicking, across the comments here, and elsewhere of course, that even being here during the season is disheartening. It feels destructive. Why is this the case? Yes, some of the show requires a suspension of belief – but is that so hard to do? Perhaps that is the wrong question – I should not be holding anyone to any of my own expectations – especially not anon commentators.
Perhaps the more accurate question is why should it bother me so much? I think that the best thing about this website is the reasoned and friendly debate, engendering a sense of belonging to a community for many readers. Additionally, I always learned something about the choices of the show, through some of the analysis here. However, one doesn’t feel that welcome anymore let alone feel like there’s a new perspective here – Though I love the new features, the comments just negate all the work that goes into these new perspectives and the value of the new features. Have to say, the threads feature is superb!
I do wish for reasonable and welcoming conversation, but the negativity here is overwhelming. At what point does the appreciation of the scale of the artistic work – writing, editing, acting, directing – turn into such virulent hate? Most of us commentators are not professional critics, most of us commentators aren’t filmmakers, most aren’t writers at such enormous scale, and most of us aren’t technically proficient in film making. We are receivers of some one else’s work – including the work of the writers on this website. Commentators are an audience – but for such negativity to take over – I have to wonder, why are we watching?
Well, I watch because the work of this website, and the work of the show is superb and flawed, and I enjoy the story despite not understanding some of the choices in writing, and it helps me suspend the rest of the world for an hour each week. I choose not to nitpick, because this is not grand literature, nor is it grand earth shattering cinema, this isn’t Tarkovsky – but there will never be another again in any case – it is entertainment, and I am entertained.
Criticism is not about tearing things apart – criticism is finally about learning to look at an intentionally created, designed, world from another perspective, understanding that perspective, and understanding that the function of criticism is empathy – empathy not as feeling bad for, but as understanding the makers mind, context, and world, and reasons thereof.
But that is a personal and professional opinion.
I’m well aware that nobody else will agree with me, but it doesn’t matter. I once felt welcome here; the negativity has ended that unfortunately. Ah well…I liked being here, and that for a time, is good enough for me.
Edit: wanted to clarify that this is not a crit of the work of this website – the features, the analysis are superb, and always interesting – Luka, Sue and the rest of the team is rewarding to read. The comments however, are not – with a few exceptions – Jared, Alba Stark, Mau, Acme, and few others consistently bring new reasoned and challenging perspectives.
I read the whole interview with Alan Taylor and an interesting statement he mentioned was that GRRM told him the primary goal of the series is for Jon and Dany to eventually come together. Therefore a Song of Ice and Fire is Jon and Dany not R+L=J, otherwise it would be ASoFaI. A song is notes coming together to make music, therefore J+D=song (child). I have a feeling that the bittersweet ending is their deaths but not before creating a child and heir with Tyrion and Missandei being Hand and Regent.
How about an assertive Dany who uses her air force effectively, performs recon, surveils the land and determines upon her own volition to assist in the northern mission? Why does she need a raven or a Bran dream to forcibly convince her? Instead of listening to the meanderings of her failed strategist by a cozy fire, I would have preferred her back in the cave, thinking about the land she wants to rule…and deciding for herself that she needs to go north, coincidentally or not. She’s being told what to do, which doesn’t sit well with many.
JonSnowsForeskin,
Yup, I guess it is also a bit of a self-fullfilling prophecy (if one wants to nitpick, one most always can) and it comes back full circle to the degree to which one is willing to suspend disbelief.
On the sidenote you mentioned about Dany´s makeup, that really is one of the more notably unrealistically executed details and it really is strange why it is mostly overlooked, but I guess it is because the dragon-chains are a more prominent “detail” of the episode adn that we´re used to Dany looking perfect.
Everyone who hated the Episode at this point was most likely so upset by the dragons being there perfectly timed in the first place that it was just more of an eye-roll moment that dead Viserion was now fished out by convenient, never-before-heard-of Dragonchains.
I think that one could still say that those chains potentially came from Hardhome (harbor?), that they are a relic of ancient times or that they are from one of Mance´s camps and that there are thus a plethora of secenarios how the NK could have happened to obtain them. Certainly way more than there are ways of how Daenerys is having perfect make-up 24/7, that is true.
Tar Kidho,
Is not like GRRM achieved immaculate chapters in all five books. The dialogue in his chapters is not always great. I give you Darkstar as proof. Or Tyrion and Jamie chapters in the last book, where I wanted to kill both Tyrion and Jamie for repeating the same thing over and over again. Shut up already, I don’t care where whore goes and yes Cersei has been fcking everyone behind your back, even Moonboy. And don’t get me going about Daenerys and her ‘but I’m just a young girl’ phase. Additionally the intrigue isn’t always great either: Quentyn Martell as the prime example. But I could also say Brienne POVs were all she did was look for a girl of ten and three with auburn hair for an entire book.
And let me clarify and say that I really like the books/series and I really do hope he finishes it because I want to get his take on what actually happens to all the characters because they are his characters and no one else’s. But people should stop pretending that there a not as many flaws in the written novels as in the show. Both have their issues and both are enjoyable.
Clob,
Yup. I got irritated when I watched an “Eastwatch” review last week that insisted that Dany was expendable now that Jon’s legitimate and able to bond with her dragons. I’m a Jon fan first and foremost, but he and Dany have always shared the slot of “Key Protagonist” in my book. There’s also the never ending Nissa Nissa theorizing, despite the fact that this was only applicable to the original AA and was never even mentioned on the show, or the insistence that Dany is still somehow a villain or going mad. On the flip side, during season 6 and the season 7 filming period, it was post after post trying to downplay Jon’s resurrection and insisting that Mel was going to drop him like a hot potato once she heard about Dany, who would be saving the world all by herself while Jon held her drink. The messianic pissing contest is too annoying for words, and I’m so happy to see it getting shut down hard by just about everyone involved with the show. They were never going to have one character play second fiddle to the other one after they met, but apparently many people actually needed this spelled out for them.
Flayed Potatoes,
Contrary to popular belief, nothing rivals the Jonsa tag on Tumblr for Dany hate. Or Jon hate for that matter. You’d almost think that entire ship existed solely for the benefit of one character, and one character alone. Or something.
Lurking here has made me realize how much I hate the nitpicking over at r/asoiaf. Thanks for existing.
Jade Joon,
Don´t despair, most of the criticism by the really harsh commentators is surely based on the notion that if you love something, you want it to be good in all instances and thus when it meets or exceeds expectations, everything is alright while mistakes are criticized all the more harshly. At the end of the day, most people here could surely still come together peacefully and would say that they like or love GOT, I´m sure of it and I´m also sure that you are still very much welcome here, even though you may not feel this way atm.
And if everything else fails: choose your fights :). Discuss with the people you like and respect and don´t really care for constant nay-sayers.
Hodors Bastard,
I dunno, having Dany decide not to go and then later be like “I better check on them” and the timing is PERFECT strikes me as even more convenient and narratively frustrating than what was depicted. At least in the show, there was cause and effect; she decided not to go, gets a letter saying she’s needed, then goes. I think the timing was still convenient but at least the characters were consistent.
And I would disagree that there is no volition in her decision to go when she did. Tyrion rightly warns her that the risks are great, but she decides to go anyway.
trarecar,
Well Im sure GRRM is happy with the millions of dollars lining his pockets, and also if he wanted the writers to continue to use his source material, perhaps he could provide them with the material, but they couldn’t put the show on hiatus for 8 years waiting for him to finish his books
Hodors Bastard,
Sure that would have worked too. And people would still bitch about something 😂
Funkwalrus,
I agree
For those folks who really want to test the threshold of their cynicism, you gotta experience the latest Preston Jacobs review. I won’t link it here, out of respect for the community, so find it yourself. Once you accept his seething attitude as an alternate opinion, your gut will bust laughing. Seriously, it’s a great, rip-roaring review from the dark side.
tyjon,
Lets take a few slow steps away from Season 8 foilers that were written on a bad acid trip. They’re not only bad for your health, but research suggests that very few IQ points are able to escape their gravitational pull.
Anyone know if the season 7 soundtrack is out, I remember last year just before the finale I heard the track ” The Tower” and as it rose into the strains of Goodbye Brother. I knew and was excited. I bet there will be a track called “The Dragon and the Wolf” I wanna hear it now!! 😊
It’s this type of thinking that the Sci -fi/fantasy genre will always be sidelined and not mainstream. “Oh it’s fantasy, who cares about plotholes”?
A good story with a cohesive plot will always be a good story, no matter where the setting is, be it Earth, Middle Earth or Space. Why should we ask for any less?
Dany and Jon were always meant to be. Think about it. If Robert’s rebellion had never happened, these two would have grown up together and in all likelihood married one another in keeping with family tradition.
‘A Targaryan alone in the World is a terrible thing’. Fate pushed them apart to opposite sides of the World where they experienced difficult childhood- struggling for love and acceptance. Even as they grew up, overcoming the many struggles, accomplishing great things-gaining friends and followers along the way-they have never really found true happiness or indeed a sense of belonging….
Until fate brought them together again and the more they interact the more they start seeing bits of themselves in the other. A real connection, something neither has experienced before. Inevitably they fall for one another, the last remaining Targaryens, no longer alone.
Who knew GRRM was such a romantic at heart, eh?
I didn’t think Gendry had that far to run. I just assumed that the group hadn’t made it any extreme distance from the wall due to Thoros’s injuries having slowed down the group’s progress. Also, the camp fire looked to have been burning for a bit while they sat waiting for the White Walker to fall into their trap.
I didn’t see the whole eyeball thing until someone mentioned it was a ‘thing’, and then I thought it was actually pretty cool, if dubious…then dear Clob clobbered the theory with logic. 😉 You were 100% right! 😊
elybe,
Jon Snow Superfans are the absolute worst of all GoT/ASoIaF fandom. I’ve had people telling me Jon bending the knee somehow ‘ruined’ his character. I mean, Dany has bent over backwards for Jon-basically done everything he asked of her- but him showing a bit of appreciation and doing something that she had asked of him is unacceptable.
Knight of the Walkers,
So true. I got so angry when I read all the drivel cited as fact written under this episode and swore I would never visit again.
BranTheBlessed,
They are bad yes, but Dany super fans aren’t great either. I’ve lost count of how many times i’ve been called a misogynist because I don’t like seeing Dany feed people to her dragons. Its especially odd since i’m also a woman.
Regarding Jon bending the knee, I didn’t think it was right, at least not in that moment. Dany and Tormund talked to him about pride, but I don’t believe Jon suffers from pride, applying Mance Rayder’s choice to Jon doesn’t work for me.
I think he had legitimate reasons to refuse, and suddenly they don’t matter anymore? I’m not keen I must admit, he should have introduced her to the Northern Lords as an ally, before declaring her Queen. This type of thing got him murdered in the first place.
BranTheBlessed,
Back when the Season 7 spoilers first came out, I commented in the forums and nobody despises Jon more than some of his own fans do. I have no idea what show those people think they are watching, but if Jon bending the knee to Dany, who has done more for him and House Stark in one episode than the spineless Northern Lords have in three seasons, has “ruined” his character, then they were never fans of his to begin with, because they clearly have no idea who he is. The character they worship doesn’t exist if they expect him to exploit Dany’s grief and opportunistically take all she has to offer without giving her anything in return. The journeys from “You are in open rebellion” to “I hope I deserve it” and from “I don’t know you” to “They’ll see you for what you are” have been a joy to watch, and I truly feel sorry for people who can’t see what this relationship has done for both characters.
I’m not in conversation regarding timing of any of it… I just wanted to point out (remind) that Gendry was still with them for that. Jon sent him back just after they captured the wight and just before they ran for the lake.
Tar Kidho,
No offense but please Get over it. The show has to deviate from the books since it has surpassed the books. It makes no sense to for D&D to reveal and spoil it for the book fans. If the show revealed everything that will happen in the books then everyone would still complain. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
I love the books just as much as the next person, however, I know good and well how difficult it is to translate from book to TV screen. It’s NOT easy. It’s very hard, especially when it comes to all the trivials that people are complaining about like time jumps and the speed of ravens and things like that. I’d love it if every person that’s whining was giving the chance to actually write an episode as to how they think it should be and then try filming it. I’ll bet you can’t do it exactly as you think it should be. There are so many variables and compromises you have to make that you’d want to strangle your Line Producer. It’s not easy…It’s hard. It’s way easier said than done. Trust me, I have worked in production and it’s frustrating. I appreciate this show for entertainment value and all that goes into it.
I’m actually more disbelieving of Jon not having serious frostbite after his dunking in the lake.
Jon is a Fire Wight. His body is not the same as before he was murdered and brought back to life. So that could be an answer to the frostbite issue.
trarecar,
Tish, everyone knows that Jon’s blood didn’t make the shape of a wolf. It made the shape of a DRAGON! 😉
Oberyn´s One Good Hand,
Danke! I’ve started to read only specific comments now – all the main content on the site is great!
I see we’re back onto the “fans of character X are insufferable” conversation. Ugh. Oh, I mean yay!!
Jennipeg,
Yes, IMO there are two major problems.
1) The showrunners have completely failed to sell us the wight hunt – it was so dumb that probably the only way it could work would have been making it Cersei’s idea and demand. Sure, it would have been not about proof but about Cersei putting her enemies into a highly risky situation and then Dany could have gon on “Burn KL”, Tyrion “No, no, no!” and Jon “OK, I’ll get this damned wight”.
2) There was a major inconsistency with Dany’s decision to resque Jon and his team: she was unwilling to fight for the North, she even said that Jon was too little for her – that’s OK, but she requred some moment of truth, some abrupt realization that she was in love with Jon and that Jon would die unless she goes after him and that all would be her fault.
Had the showrunners managed to deliver those two things, other inconsistences could be more or less swallowed. Well, they should have included Theon into the planning session and addressed Yara’s captivity, too. That required 2 short lines no more: like Theon could ask “What about my sister?” and others reply “We hae more pressing issues?”
In general I feel like all this highly costy penultimate episode was just a filler made for the sake of extending the season. Cersei should have agreed on the armistice right after the Loot Train Attack, because it was in her best interests, and the story should have moved right into Dragonpit. The death of Viserion was unnecessary: if the Night King required a wight dragon, Viserion could have easily died during the attack on the Eastwatch during the finale etc. So, in general that’s what happens when the story is bended to fit some scheme with a penultimate episode 6 and I am very unhapy with that, because I love the show.
That said there were many great scenes and interactions in the episode that sort of compensate the flaws. I really liked all the talks beyon the Wall, especially Jon and Beric, and the scenes between Jon and Dany were a pure gold, but nonetheless the overall storytelling was on the level of an average Holywood blockbuster, not on the level of GoT. So, now I simply want the sripts of S8 to be leaked and discussed and the writers taking these discussions into consideration.
The whole episode should have been beyond the Wall and we could have had extra scenes to help with the timing/pacing. There was no need for the Winterhell garbage. All my friends watching the episode even said why should anyone care about a dumb sister squabble in Winterhell when NK is taking down a dragon and team Jon is fighting the army of the dead? The stakes were too high beyond the Wall to care at all about Winterhell horrible plot
For the first time this season I actually skipped my rewatch of the most recent episode on Monday.
I think the fatigue of hearing so many people bitch about the time travels and nit picking the show to death by 1,000 cuts just kind of made me mentally exhausted, so I skipped it last night.
Next season I should make a conscious effort to not frequent the fan sites as much. I actually REALLY enjoy some of the conversations and people here at WOTW, but a lot of the other comments just make the show feel more like a homework assignment rather than a show for entertainment purposes. WHen I was watching “Beyond the Wall on Sunday night, I could sense certain moments that I knew some of the fans would be whinging about and it kind of took me out of the moment.
I think I’ll find myself enjoying the season much more without reading through the nitpicking and constant criticisms, whether they’re warranted or not.
Okay, I understand that you have an inability to suspend your moral code even when it concerns a fantasy, a fantasy world, and one in which those type of relationships are common in the history of these people. Even when we know in this fantasy that one main protagonist, Daenerys, had parents that were siblings, and the other that came from the same paternal lineage and his maternal grandparents were cousins. Go ahead and keep having an issue with it and relating it to our own real world, I don’t care. Go ahead and ignore that our history in this real world is filled with the same thing.
Setting aside your problem with that entire thing, the book and show backbone being “a story about Jon and Daenerys” does not necessarily mean it’s about them being lovers or married, even if that happens. That’s not what I’m saying is THE point. I’m saying it’s the story of what happens in their young lives, the lives around them, and how they come together to lead the people in all of their greatest challenge. It’s what we’re F’N seeing in front of our eyes and where the books are leading us!!
Jennipeg,
You are right, Jon did have legitimate reasons not to bend the knee.
He did not know her, he did not trust her and he doubted whether any Southern ruler would have empathy for Northerners and their lives.
Dany, through her actions, shattered every one of his doubts. She proved herself to be someone worth following and this is why Jon bends the knee. Just like the Northern Lords and Ladies bent the knee to Jon when they realized he was worth following. This is why he says ‘They’ll come to see you for what you are’.
I seriously don’t understand these people who care about this “time travel” or “ludicrous speed” nonsense, that is like the least of the illogical things happening here, it’s a TV show. Dragons aren’t real why not complain about these mythological creatures also a guy lit a freaking sword on fire with some sort of blood magic….
TheScribe,
There is zero evidence for this on the show. Beric Dondarrion, in the books, is a fire wight according to George, but he can’t be one on the show, because Jon blatantly doesn’t fit GRRM’s criteria for one. Unless we’re just using it as a meaningless designation, like people who call themselves “’90s Kids” when they were still soiling their diapers at the turn of the century. We do not have any confirmation of how Jon’s stabbing will be resolved by GRRM, or that the usual rules of being brought back by the Lord of Light will even apply to him. Main protagonists tend to be exceptions in that way, and Jon would hardly be the first character to dodge consequences that would have befallen secondary characters. GRRM pointedly left Jon out of the “fire wight” statement, despite the interviewer bringing him up moments earlier. People are drawing a false equivalency based on assumptions about how closely Book Jon’s stabbing resolution will mirror Show Jon’s.
Show Jon hasn’t said one word about feeling or functioning any differently after his death, and that is one glaring omission. How do you make a case for Show Jon being a fire wight when we’ve seen him eat, drink, sleep, breathe, feel pain, and based on the last episode’s foreshadowing, could very well see him reproduce? Actions which require all of his vital systems to be a go? We’re talking scene after scene demonstrating that he is every bit as alive as he was before, and zero in-show evidence to the contrary. I honestly think some people will latch onto any possibility to refuse accepting that the only change Jon sustained from his death was an existential crisis.
elybe,
You know it’s so funny cause when the leaks dropped there was this big uproar about Jon kneeling and how it ruins the character.But actually watching the episode that was one of the few things most people didn’t complain about and completely got the point of it.The general consensus amongst reviewers and and the audience is that it makes complete sense.And it really does.Jon and Dany’s stories and their building relationship have been the strongest parts of this season.His reasoning has been explained many times over.And with the way the northern lords have been portrayed this season I don’t give a fuck what they might think.I hope Drogon burns them all lol.Jon just got them a huge army,weapons and two dragons so their traitor asses have a chance and Dany being in charge wouldn’t harm them in any way so I don’t see what they have to whinge about.
BranTheBlessed,
This touches on the problem I have with their relationship, I don’t see how she has proven to be a good Queen. A good person yes, but what has he seen to make him think that Westeros needs her to rule them? What does breaking the wheel actually mean? From my point of view, I don’t think she’s a great ruler anyway, if Meereen is anything to go by. She brought them rebellion and starvation, and then left them in the hands of a sellsword, A for effort but still a disaster.
I found Jon and Dany’s conversations on Dragonstone repetitive, and given the time constraints, I think thats a shame, because it all just feels unearned, when she said ‘I haven’t given you permission to leave’ my eyes nearly rolled out of my head. We know what she is, we know what he is, I don’t think the show has done a great job of showing that to each of them, if that makes sense.
So seeing him suddenly bend the knee was a ‘huh?’ moment for me, he hasn’t consulted his people about anything, and now he’s going to rock up at Winterfell with a new Queen and expect them to love her? They will immediately rebel against the idea, he should have let them get to know her first.
A lot of my issues are down to lack of time, I don’t think they have had the time to develop their relationship properly, it feels rather shallow to me unfortunately. There is still time for me to change my mind of course, and I hope that I do, but for the moment its not doing it for me.
This is the first time i’ve ever been so negative about the show, I love Jon and Dany as characters, but somehow seeing them together is underwhelming, and I was so looking forward to it.
Mr Derp,
Try not to let it get to you. I just re-watched last night, and enjoyed it so much because I let go of worrying about the timeline. Just look at the amazing effects, listen to the great dialogue, and watch the terrific acting. Watching Viserion slip into the water or Tormund and Sandor discussing Brienne—that is all I need for a full re-watch! There is so much that is wonderful about this show. Even the “weak” episodes are still amazing television! We are just spoiled!
They need to wrap up this Theon/Yara plot.
Sam Stargaryen,
Yes. Thanks for a bit of sense here, Sam.
The other thing about timing is that now that Winter is Here the days north of the wall are short, and growing shorter yet. The magnificent seven+ would leave Eastwatch, as had been said, around dawn or a little after. The whole scenario of walking, bear-attack, walking more with Thoros wounded, finding the wights and demolishing them and their WW leader while capturing one, and then finding themselves under attack by the multitude of wights and running to the island all occurs in full daylight.
Then they spend the long night on the island, during which time Thoros dies and the broken ice on the lake re-freezes.
They would probably be no more than three hours walk (if that) from Eastwatch when the ‘capture’ happens, and then Gendry starts to run, getting back to Eastwatch, exhausted, still before dusk falls. Now, the day length there could be around six hours or even less. (In the depth of winter there would be no ‘day’ at all.) The raven flies during the night and reaches Dragonstone around or before dawn Dragonstone time, which would still be night in ‘beyond the wall’ time. Dany receives the message, dresses, discusses with Tyrion, and starts to fly at-still-before dawn ‘BtW’ time, taking maybe three hours to cover the distance that took the raven rather longer.
So, she gets there some time after the magnificent six+ have discovered Thoros’s freezing to death in the night, and the wights have started to invade the re-frozen lake, in time for the fighting to have become deathly serious. It does work.
Of all the times taken, that for Gendry to run back, even with snow conditions to contend with, is the shortest. He’s younger and running, and exhausted by the end – but probably is doing this for no more than two hours and possibly less time than this. I don’t see a problem with this timing, bearing in mind short days and long nights in Winter north of the wall.
(I live in Scotland.)
This whole notion that the Northerners will rebel against Jon because he bent the knee is without basis, by the way.
The reason they were opposed to the idea of Jon going to Dragonstone was because they were scared for his life. It could be a trap after-all and their judgement was influenced by past experience ie Aerys killing Rickard and Brandon Stark.
But once they know the truth about the Mad King’s daughter, once they find out that
(a) She supplied all the Dragonglass they need
(b) Risked her own life and sacrificed one of her dragons to save their people including their King
(c) She pledged herself to join hands and destroy the Night King and his army
Do you really think their opinions won’t change?
Like many, I had mixed feelings about the episode. Everyone, including those who create/write and those who don’t, would do anything and everything differently if they were in the position to do so. The most unfortunate thing for me was being spoiled in the process of trying to watch the leaked episode. It’s my own fault for knowing what happened to Viserion; that Benjen saves Jon (though not how/when); and that Tormund was on the back on Drogon with Daenerys…
Going into the episode, I was wondering how Daenerys ends up North and how the sequence of events would play out. I’ve always loved Jon Snow’s story, mainly I think it’s because it’s the largest with the least politics, and the content above the wall was almost always enjoyable. Because of this, I was slightly disappointed at the back and forth between the North scenes and Winterfell/Dragonstone.
I was expecting (my fault) and hoping (also dangerous with GoT) that those scenes would be segregated within the episode. I realize that going back and forth served to establish the passage of time, and the night they spent on the island. I can suspend my belief on the Gendry/Raven/Dragon flight because A) I’m watching a 7-hour movie and B) a cliffhanger would suck and C) nitpicking will get me nowhere. What I’m not sure I’m disappointed or not by is Daenerys’s decision to help. Going into the episode, I guessed that she would decide to not sit around and wait; that she would impulsively want to help because she’s concerned about her guys (Jorah and Jon).
When Jon sent Gendry for her help, I winced because it just didn’t feel right. Imagining for a moment that I didn’t know the outcome – and had no idea Daenerys was even involved – I would’ve been let down that the dragons would be coming to save the day. Of course, this may have been the intention… by the writers and the Night King. Killing one of the dragons was basically the whole point of it, to “change the game.” I think that’s what bothered me most; that while a new threat (likely not to be seen until Season 8 I’m guessing) is established, the danger of the mission was eliminated as soon as Gendry was deployed. (However, I did worry for Tormund). Then the battle lasted 4.5 minutes before dragonfire. I felt that Euron’s attack in Episode 2 had more weight and excitement, and I don’t even care what happens to the Greyjoys.
We already had a heavy Dragon sequence in E4 and it was glorious; the dangers on both sides were far more real. I just would’ve preferred a “spiritual successor” to Hardhome. That’s on me though. As far as Bran being involved, I don’t think that would’ve made it any better or more plausible. One could argue Bran saw everything happen as it did, after he sent the raven to Jon in the first place. If Bran’s sole significance this season to help reveal R+L=J to the audience (and Jon?), then maybe it’s a waste given his connection to the Night King OR perhaps information about The Dragon and The Wolf (Rhaegar and Lyanna, in this case) is more important than to serve just Jon?
Lastly, it’s obvious the mention of Daenerys leaving a successor and Jon having a family someday was in the same episode for foreshadowing. What, exactly? I look forward to finding out. As for the Stark girls, I truly hope and believe there is a game at play and we are watching from the POV of Littlefinger – and will therefore be fooled. Lord of Light, I hope so.
Roberta Baratheon,
Yea, I just get tired of the endless debating sometimes. I’m most likely going to watch it again tonight and I agree that, for the most part, the episode was pretty awesome. Although, I’d rather skip the part where Viserion dies. Even though we didnt get to know him/her much, it still hurt like hell seeing it’s death.
Thanks for the kind post. You give the Baratheons a good name 🙂
Mr Derp,
🙂
Man, so many haters, I’d hate to be you guys, I have waited for the pay off for seven years, Therefore I am going to enjoy it, no matter what happens, sucks to be you, unable to enjoy something you love
Nope. What needs to stop is the obsessive nitpicking. It has taken all the fun out of this place.
Jennipeg,
Okay, we have to agree to disagree here.
In a season where most everything feels contrived and rushed, Jon and Dany’s relationship is the exception. They’ve done a fantastic job-both in writing and acting- on this, IMO.
Inga,
This idea that if the scripts are leaked and people bash them that somehow it’s going to change season 8 is laughable. Everything is already in pre-production. The scripts are final. All the work that is currently going on is based on those scripts so they can begin shooting in October. You are out of your mind if you think that they are going to go back and change anything because of fans squabbling over how they think it should be.
BranTheBlessed,
Yeah I think so,
I’m probably in the minority on this one (maybe?) in that I lump it in with the other contrived and rushed plots, maybe because I had such high hopes, and to me it doesn’t compare to the relationship Jon had with Ygritte (in terms of development).
But i’m glad other viewers are into it, I wish I could feel the same, I feel left out of the cool club lol. Perhaps on a rewatch I will appreciate it better. I hope so, I don’t like moaning about my favourite show!
Oberyn´s One Good Hand,
Looper,
Thanks for your replies and I mainly agree with your comments. Of course there are inconsistencies in the show, but I certainly wouldn’t call them plot holes. I have no problem with posters making negative comments, but lets be honest – Jack Bauer 24 has taken this to an all time high level – He complains about everything! Then when he gets answers to questions he posts:
e.g. “What were the faces Sansa pulled out?” – Of which I answered…
Those faces were some Arya took from the HoB&W in Braavos and one was from Walder Frey that she used to impersonate him back in S7ep1 to fool the Frey household into drinking a toast with poisoned wine and killing them all.
He never replies? Have you not noticed he never acknowledges or discusses answers and his next post will be yet another question, sometimes which he should know the answer to if he follows the show:
“Why did Arya give Sansa the dagger?”
I would have thought that would have been obviously to any watcher of the show – Simply to show Sansa she was not her enemy and to eliminate any fear she may have had of her.
Then more questions – eg.
“So Jon and Dany are on a boat all next episode? Do they not go to KL?”
“Is Theon not in the finale?”
and so on and so on…. Questions he knows the answers to, so why post them in the first place? I never see these style of repetitive posts from anyone else on this forum – Only from Jack Bauer 24 🙁
If posters on this group are happy to support and spoon feed him stuff with info he should be able to work out for himself then so be it. Sorry, but I for one ‘don’t suffer fools gladly’ and Jack Bauer 24 is number one in that category 🙁
As for the story itself and the people who are not happy with the way its presented by B&W then that onus falls on GRRM. I’m sure he would have explained in the greatest detail of how the WW managed to find chains to pull a dragon out of a frozen lake. That is of course if he decides that will happen if/when he ever finishes the books!
The show is what it is. No reason to explain why the ‘internal consistency’ is not as precise as it could be. Even if GRRM had finished the books, it would have been impossible for the show runners to have created GoT verbatim to his every word.
HBO have already spent $millions on this and it has to come to a conclusion soon. Whatever the final outcome is, it will go down in TV history as probably the greatest drama show ever. So just enjoy the show and for the likes of those like Jack Bauer 24, stop the nitpicking and the endless questions 😛
Jade Joon,
I totally agree. Last year, I enjoyed the site a lot but this year, I’m almost dreading to participate in any discussion because negativity rules the site. This is not the attitude I wish to see from GoT fans and it gives me anxiety.
Farcical_Aquatic_Ceremony,
Wellllll, to be fair, I didn’t mind Maisie in most other seasons. I think she’s great with Charles Dance, for instance.
It’s just… she’s doing a bad Hannibal Lecter impersonation now and it bothers me.
Guys, I love the show. My heart was pounding. I don’t nitpick details like how fast a raven flies or how fast ice freezes.
What bothers me is when characters have to behave stupidly/oddly/meanly or otherwise out of character just in order to advance the plot. I think Sansa-Arya is like that.
I think the whole “Let’s show Jaime a wight and he’ll convince Cersei!” story is really kinda thin, but I get Jon not having any other real options. He doesn’t have enough northmen and they are all fickle goobers anyway. Dany won’t do it until Cersei is defeated and Jon doesn’t see they have that kind of time.
I mean, I get it. It’s a long shot, but Jon needs more guys. I just wish it was fleshed out a bit more. I really am beginning to think one more episode length might have done it.
Mr Derp,
Dammit!!! Looks like the JB24 and his fellow “nits” are slowly winning 🙁 That’s the second good contributor pulling out within a few hours…
I’d be sad to see WotW go on without one fewer Mr. “Davos/Stannis” Derp here! Though I must say, I can’t even blame you for thinking like this now… I’ve felt the same fatigue from fighting my way through all the nonsense. Even to the degree of no longer having the same strength to resist commenting back (like it’s happened today) and ignore them as I usually do.
Please listen to Roberta Baratheon a few comments back – it’s worth the watch again and again for the dialogue and well…everything! At least come back for a little news now and then in long night, that awaits us all from next week…
Dead Dane Walking,
Oh, I’ll still be here, just not as much 🙂 I have my gripes with the show, as does any show watcher, but at the end of the day, this show is supposed to be about entertainment and shouldn’t be taken quite as seriously as it seems to be.
BranTheBlessed,
Here’s how it’s going to go:
Jon: So, while I was away, I bent the knee… Danerys Targaryen is on the way. I am asking you to follow her as queen…
Crowd: Shouts, mutters, whines, whinges
Random Glover: She’s a TERGERYEN! SHE TOOK OUR JERBS!
Random Cerwyn: YE CAIN’T TRUSTA TERGERYEN!
Littlefinger: Smirks loud enough to be heard over the shouting
Jorah: Aren’t you going to tell them what she did for us?
Tormund: He believes in leading with bad news. And then never following up with good news. I saw it at Hardhome. He really is a stupid fooker. I don’t know why these idiots made him King.
Jon: No, I was waiting for meaningful conversations between people who haven’t seen each other in a while. Gendry-Arya. You’re over there. Sansa-Hound, right there where I can see you. Tormund-Brienne. Look, we all love you guys together, so work it out.
Jorah, looks at Lyanna giving him a death stare: Imma gonna wait outside and make sure Her Grace finds the way OK.
Arya: I call dibs on the Hound first
Sansa: YOU’RE RUINING EVERYTHING! I HATE YOU
Arya: I HATE YOU MORER!
Bran: We’ve had some disagreements while you were away
Littlefinger: Smirks
The Hound: Both of you bitches shut it. I’m in the Brienne line…
Random White Dudes: Rage, rage, rage. Whine Whine Whine. Whinge more.
Lyanna Mormont: Ahem
Random White Dudes: Oh, shit. We agreed on this. We were supposed to wait for her to talk first. And then decide what to do
Lyanna: All of you dudes. Shut up. Seriously, who keeps letting you idiots talk? Jon Snow has earned my trust. Why, I don’t know. But he has. So, I’m going to meet this queen and judge for myself.
Jorah: She’s really cool
Lyanna; Shut it.
Jon: Oh, my last act as King in the North was to pardon Jorah. He’s head of your House now.
Jorah: No, I’m not. I don’t want it. Jesus, just how stupid are you??? Are you trying to get me killed?
Dany: (Standing Outside and listening): Dracarys.
Drogon: Gives her a questioning look
Dany: Seriously, the whole castle.
Jennipeg,
You thought Jon and Ygritte was done better? Really?
The attraction stemmed from the excitement of it being ‘forbidden love’, the sort you get into when you’re young. They had absolutely nothing in common-which is why their dialogues were mostly sex oriented, there was no trust-spent the whole time wondering when the other was gonna do a backstab.
In the end, they chose their people/duty over love, which just sums up the depth of their feelings.
BranTheBlessed,
Yeah, I do have to say that the Ygritte thing was basically her making fun of him and/or asking him to go down on her again.
I’ve had worse relationships, but there wasn’t a lot of substance there…
I was wondering about the soundtrack also. Loved all the music from TWoW last season …pretty much played them all on repeat all season long.
Another question about the soundtrack — anyone have a favorite piece of music from this season so far? I am not very good at noticing music during the show….except for light of the seven, but that was special 🙂
Sacred Lime,
Black Raven,
Yeah, the fact that he never actually gives you an answer when you reply to him gets me as well. It is incredibly rude, and he just gives you the impression that his opinion is the most important, and no-one else’s matters. I have no problem with criticism of the episode, but some of the bizarre stuff he comes out with is…disappointing 😉 He can’t be properly watching the episodes with some of the stuff he comes out, so it is no surprise he is constantly confused.
It would be a shame if some of the “positive” contributors stopped commenting here, because I enjoy reading their points of view. The problem with some people is that they constantly focus of the negatives which is depressing. I don’t mind reading some intelligent criticisms, but you wouldn’t believe some people here actually like the show. You need to mention some good things too otherwise you’re little more than a troll. It is meant to be enjoyable to read a site like this.
Generally the site is more enjoyable in the off-season, but I have a really bad feeling about next season, because however good it is I feel the book purists are really going to tear it apart (even more so than this season). It is their last opportunity to really rip into the show, so be prepared.
BranTheBlessed,
I felt more in this scene than anything we’ve seen this season between Dany and Jon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziYWQwhkhHY
So I guess so. Obviously it was never going to work, he wouldn’t have been able to stay with her, but it was good while it lasted. I didn’t doubt their feelings for one second (he refused Mel based on it), despite Jon’s internal torment over breaking his vows.
He’d never met a woman like her, and she helped him see things from a different point of view. It was doomed from the start but I think it played a big part in his decision to let the wildlings through the wall, it was an important experience for him as a person.
WorfWWorfington,
I’ve been nodding my head when reading a lot of your comments. (I don’t seem to be able to post in my old username – Halfman – so I’ve got another one. Not that I ever posted much)
I get the complaints about the feasibility of having Gendry run to Eastwatch, send a raven to Dany and her getting to the suicide squad in time, but while I feel it could have been done differently, I don’t really care enough to let it overshadow the whole episode which it feels as though it’s doing judging by the reactions online.
Where did the NK get chains from? Who cares? 100k wildlings lived north of The Wall for years so all sorts of stuff is lying around.
I knew Dany would show up in time but I still felt it was exciting to watch waiting for it to happen….and I really did worry for Tormund at one point. The drama was all there and it was gutting to watch Viserion fall.
I may be in the minority here but the Anya/Sansa scenes made sense to me. Ayra knows Sansa as a spoilt selfish girl who cost her friend Myca his life and failed to take her family’s side over Joffrey’s. The letter was bound to awaken all those old wounds and coupled with Ayra’s sense that Sansa was hungry for power of her own, she went into No One mode. No surprises there. It doesn’t mean LF’s scheme will work, Ayra gave Sansa the knife.
If Ayra and Sansa had been singing from the same hymn sheet having been reunited I would have found that much more unbelievable, especially with the Lord of Lurk around.
My favourite scene was Jon and Dany on the ship. Perfectly acted and the chemistry between those two works like a dream. I don’t get the complaints that it’s rushed either. Dany was in love with her rapist, slave master, horselord within about three episodes. That was much more far fetched to me. Two people who spoke different languages, from different cultures and she was sold off like a brood mare?! Yet she falls in love with him? It may have worked on screen but really isn’t anywhere near as plausible as falling for Jon.
The dialogue while the Wight hunters were trekking through the snow was funny, and tied up loose ends. Most viewers watch a season and then think no more of GOT until it shows up on their screens a year later, by which time they’ve forgotten most of the connections between the many characters. I think the show does a great job with the dialogue of helping people connect the dots again.
I’ve loved this season and the story is no less enthralling or exciting for me than it was when I first watched it.
Very true. She was a piece of his development as a character, as a person. She was his first ‘girlfriend’ and a person he’ll always remember. We we all had our first love… and then we move on.
Hmm, why did I suddenly get Jana Kramer’s song “I Got the Boy” in my head?? 😛
BINGO!!
…and glad to hear, you’ll still be out there reading. Personally I’ve been a WotW-follower for a couple of years, but didn’t start commenting until around February or March this year. It wasn’t really until I got involved, that I felt the effect of the “Nits”. Probably because one tends to read more intensely in order to be able to comment, whereas by reading only, it’s easier to scroll past Nits pretty fast…
It might be a good idea for Season 8 to just share the fun pre-hype hours on Sundays. Read the great articles during the week and when then reading reviews, then stick with very selected commenting. I’ll have too think about it all after S7E7. – Take care and hope to see a Derp-comment now and then 🙂
Fun fact:
I grew tired of typing “nitpickers” and just came up with “Nits” as my own nickname for them – with English being my second language, it suddenly occured to me, that I better check if Nits actually means something, so I wouldn’t say something completely stupid. So I looked it up:
“The egg or young form of a louse or other parasitic insect, especially the egg of a head louse attached to a human hair.”
Now I REALLY like this nickname 😀
Black Raven,
Yep, it’s fantasy and therefore anything can happen and is explainable by “magic”. The night king flying a 747 into Winterfell next episode is plausible. So is Sansa picking up her iPhone and calling Cersei to tell her to f*** off.
Writing off people who note continuity issues is just cheap. If you don’t pay attention to details that contradict in-world logic, that’s fine, but those who do are not lesser. You would not have GoT if these people did not exist because I 1000% garauntee you George is a detail orientated person. It comes with being a nerd.
Clob,
lol, indeed, you learn a lot about yourself, and thats true of Jon. If they had been able to stay together, I doubt it would have lasted, but it was still an important learning experience. The rather tragic separation probably makes him look back on it with rose tinted glasses. It also means that Jon will never choose to be with a ‘normal’ woman, and in walks Daenerys! She fits the bill perfectly.
This basically sums up my feelings on Jon/Dany
https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/21/16179238/game-of-thrones-jon-snow-daenerys-romance-weak-season-7-beyond-the-wall
Dead Dane Walking,
“Nitpicking” literally means picking the eggs. That’s where the slang comes from.
Since we are having fun on this thread. This is how I imagine the “epic” GoT fans viewing the show.
http://www.theemotionmachine.com/wp-content/uploads/Fake-Happiness.png
Jennipeg,
‘I am yours and you are mine’?
For me, this just further illustrates the point that it was rooted more in silly highschool type lust than trust, mutual-respect and understanding.
Ygritte was basically driving Jon the whole way through the ‘relationship’. First she seduced him and sealed the deal, then she pulled out ‘I’m your woman, you have to stay loyal to me and my people’ card, finally she came to realize nothing would change Jon’s true loyalty and so decided to stick him with some arrows.
Knight of the Walkers,
Jack baur 24 is either one of the following, incredibly dense, a rude attention seeker, or a troll, which is kinda the same thing, either way people should just ignore him, no appreciation for the answers kindly provided, no point in answering him
Tycho Nestoris,
Aaah, that’s how it is…of course! Well thanks for clearifying.
In my language the word for nitpicking is a little worse, I guess…directly translated we say flyfucking! 😀
Haha nice visualization!
Btw. I’m gonna come after you, if you keep lending money to Cersei, Tycho!!
Dead Dane Walking,
oooof! Way to show solidarity – digging up the fun definition of notpicking! heh
BranTheBlessed,
I don’t disagree, it wasn’t a lasting or particularly healthy relationship, but he learnt a lot from it. In that scene I posted, they say ‘but first we’ll live’ which is a completely new outlook for Jon, that’s the important part of that scene.
A relationship with Dany would be more balanced of course, and more mature, I’m not sure I’d say healthier due to the whole insest thing, but whatever, I can cope with it.
My original point, was not that Ygritte is better for Jon, but their relationship, with all of its baggage, was better conveyed to me on screen and given time to develop throughout the season. What can I say, Kit and Rose sold it to me.
It’s kinda like the Bible or any religion. The only way to believe it is to suspend the thought process, its a matter of faith. No offense intended to those who believe in religion, I promise.
It’s a fantasy, if you think too hard it goes away.
Hehe touché!! …Had to be sure, I didn’t offend anyone due to second language barriers, you know 😀 It has never occured to me to look up the definition of nitpicking (even though I have actually lived in the US a while back). Guess I always just assumed it was only used in this context.
And may I add: Pleased to see you’re still here, as I also read your “farewell”-sounding comment earlier this afternoon 🙂 We need the well-written and well-founded comments/commentors with both sound criticism and praise of the show, if WotW is not to turn into pure silliness from JB24 and other Nits…
Dead Dane Walking,
I want to stop! It’s taken years just to get this loan paid off and truth be told I can’t stand the woman. I am but a humble servant of an instituition larger than myself though and must do as I’m told😉
Jennipeg,
Fair enough. Something that needs to be considered though (the author of that article ignored it too)- How can you compare Jon-Ygritte’s entire arc to Jon-Dany’s still budding romance? The latter have only just realized there maybe romantic feelings between them. And the way they’ve arrived at this point has been far more tender, sweet and resonates truer when compared to other love stories at comparable junction.
sj4iy,
So much THIS.
GRRM was the one who decided it would be fine to make 20% of book 3, ALL of book 4, and MOST of book 5, all happen SIMULTANEOUSLY, and people here whinge about travel times??? Please.
Bran’s storyline has been out of synch since he went north of the Wall even in the books. It’s why they made him sit out an entire season.
They could have done that with Arya – but thankfully they gave her lots more to do than the books.
I had five people in my living room on Sunday night, screaming at the TV: WHERE ARE THE DRAGONS ALREADY?????
Jennipeg,
I totally agree. I don’t buy Dany and Jon’s relationship at all.
Not because I don’t buy the characters together. I thought they would be very impressed by one another. But because I think they’ve done a terrible job of conveying their affections.
Suddenly in Episode 5 Daenerys was all heart eyed and chest heaving every time Jon said anything, when the episode before she was still staring him down, accusing him of being too proud to bend the knee and testily demanding military advice.
Yet even when they departed, the producers seemed to contrast Jorah’s undoubted love for Daenerys with Jon’s apparent indifference.
I find it such a shame, actually, and it boggles my mind that more people aren’t disappointed. I mean, if this is meant to be a major, epic romance they were building towards for more than 6 seasons then they’ve really undersold it, in my opinion.
Ygritte and Jon have already been mentioned. Ned and Cat. Robb and Talisa. Jaime and Brienne. Considering what they’ve managed to convey previously on the show between two romantic partners, Jon and Daenerys has been an absolute damp squib.
Obviously it’s suffered from the reduction in the number of episodes and the faster pace in the narrative. Robb got at least four scenes with Talisa where they got to focus on flirting and talking family, life, etc. Brienne and Jaime got their entire travelling arc to get to know one another.
Honestly, I think it’s that personal connection that’s been missing. Why haven’t they talked about family? Why haven’t they talked about Maester Aemon? Jon finds out his long-lost sister and brother are alive and there’s no touching moment where Jon tells her about the last time he saw them and how he’s fighting this war for them and for Sansa, for example. Instead we get Daenerys, “I’m happy for you… You don’t look happy”, Wow! What an undeniable connection they have!
(1 of 2)
Jennipeg,
Plus, they’ve deliberately avoided issues that might put them at conflict, such as Daenerys burning Jon’s best friend’s father and brother alive, as if they know they can’t open such cans of worms… yet.
It all just rings really false to me and the only reason I can think of is that they’re just superficially building it up in order to immediately knock it all down again with the parentage revelation.
I keep thinking of that line they gave Littlefinger earlier in the season, where he said, “Everything that happens will be something that you’ve seen before”. Like Lyanna and Rhaegar I think this whirlwind romance is likely to end in tragedy and a lot of acrimony and bloodshed.
But if I’m wrong and they decide that Jon and Dany are in it for the long-haul then, dear God, give us more. I need a lot more if you’re gonna sell me on this.
(2of 2)
I always watch the episode again on Monday and some, each day after until the next episode. I couldn’t do it with this one but I caved today. I just needed time to sort through how unsettling this episode was for me. And, while I’m trying to see it from a dramatic/cinematic point of view of what a wight dragon means, I, too, was not happy that Viserion died. It didn’t get easier to view this time, either.
I’m hoping there’s more to this bullshit between Sansa and Arya; I’m hopeful it’s a ploy by Arya to draw out her true target…Littlefinger. I’ll just have to wait and see like everyone else.
As for the points others have made, I know that death may be the ultimate enemy but “time” is damned sure one of it’s most faithful minions. As Davos would say, “Nothing fucks you harder than time.” So, I won’t bother adding my voice to the chorus.
I must admit, this show did a bit of mind-fuckery with me…I didn’t want Jon and Dany to become intimate. Ever. They’re strong as individuals and would be great allies but, nope, didn’t like the idea of them hooking up. But them sonsabitches got me twisted for a minute. (Jon’s vulnerability didn’t help). I was momentarily irritated that they DIDN’T hook up. I’m still glad they didn’t but…damn, brilliantly done D&D.
I have a question for anyone who cares to answer:
What was the significance, if any, of the show opening with the camera moving along the painted table to the fireplace then cutting to gang north of the wall? Gods I hope it’s not something like “fire and ice.” This episode was tough enough to digest.
I suggest people go back and watch the opening scene of the episode, where the camera glides over the painted table of Westeros from Dragonstone to Eachwatch and beyond. Its only a few seconds long but it shows the distance, and via flying its really not that far.
The army of the dead is REALLY close to the Wall now, so Gendry didn’t have to run that far. Jon was in the Frostfangs when he got lost, and that’s waaay up North.
Yes, they said trap but they also said that she wanted to reclaim the North as one of her Seven Kingdoms, which is exactly “the trap” that Jon will have fallen into, from Sansa’s and the lords’ perspectives.
They might be perfectly willing to accept her, but I didn’t expect them to rise up against Jon so much just for going to Dragonstone. Just an episode or two ago, they wanted to mutiny and put Sansa in his place because he is there, for goodness sake! I cannot imagine what they’ll think when they find out that he’s bent the knee and made them all subject to her, despite what she did for the king they were willing to overthrow just by his association with her.
The lords and ladies also all don’t understand the White Walker threat, so the dragonglass and Dany’s actions won’t mean as much to them as it does to the Magnificent Seven or the Wildlings who’ve seen the Army of the Dead.
argilac's antler,
If they fudged on purpose the timeline as Alan Taylor the director of the episode said, no amount of time looking at the table will make me believe there’s nothing dubious about that pacing.
I respect his honesty and his profession. He’s a working person and he did the job the best he could, just like any of us would. While he felt like laughing at the guy with the protractor calculating the distances (and really I thought that’s just mean because if GoT wasn’t this big beast he’d be up in arms defending the pacing per his own words), I appreciate the fact he admitted as a director that even he would have liked more time in some instances and slowing down:
http://www.newsweek.com/game-thrones-season-7-pace-criticism-director-alan-taylor-653038
In the end it is what it is. He choose to trust Benioff and Weiss and this is it. It does not mean the criticism is not valid.
Yeah, yeah, and yeah. But if WotW censored someone for being Princess Grumpypants, that wouldn’t make the Watchers wise; it’d make them oppressive fascists. I’m all about freedom of speech, even for dumbasses and whingers. If we were only allowed to say positive, glowing shit, then everything we said would be insincere bullshit.
However, I do wholeheartedly agree with the terms of service, especially where we cannot personally attack other posters which many of the comments about Jack (not this one!) are dangerously close to violating, IMO. I’m certainly guilty of making fun of Jack’s posts because they are fucking hilarious in their whinging, but I hope I never cross the line between teasing and attacking.
If you don’t like a particular commenter’s posts, that is a very excellent reason to skip all of that person’s posts. I have found a much more positive perspective in selectively reading comments.
To me, it looks like Longclaw’s eye opened digitally from the middle outwards towards both sides. I think it was intentionally added to look ambiguous like it could be a splash, reflection or something living. Why else show an extreme close-up of its eyeball besides looking cool?
This is a bombshell and I don’t know what to make of it, other than to say that if true, I’m VERY upset. If it’s trolling, I’ll very upset but relieved. It’s just not like GoT to spill major beans. Read it and start the comment fest. No doubt Sue and Co will put an article up when they see it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/game-of-thrones-director-teases-dark-fate-for-arya-and-sansa_us_599b2db0e4b0771ecb065bf8?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009
Taylor responds to the Negative Nancies and Debbie Downers.
http://www.newsweek.com/game-thrones-season-7-pace-criticism-director-alan-taylor-653038
*this isn’t a negative comment as it’s ‘okay’ with me – just an observation for conversation* (It feels like I need to preface my posts with an * today) 😛
I won’t disagree with your viewpoint. I has been a bit rushed, or pushed and after the fact maybe they too will agree… With the time they’ve given themselves though I don’t know how they can work in any more ‘selling’ of the growing relationship they’re trying to convey. It feels like the blame can be put on their outline that told them they only have or need (this much) time to finish the story. Within that outline they forgot or glossed over the time needed to form a strong, believable bond between J & D. I really don’t want to bring it up, but there might be some shades of a Anakin & Padme rush comparison… Don’t chastise me! 😛 Those two had zero chemistry so that made it worse.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
Oh, good article! Plot thickens! Thank you.
I think there’s quite a bit of a dark hype there but I’m not sure if it means what you think it means. Firstly, Sansa took Brienne out of the Winterfell equation only after Petyr suggested to use her AGAINST Arya (seeing as she’s so lethal and now they know). So clearly Sansa removed one piece but not one that Arya needed but that LF suggested. And secondly, Arya surrendered the Valyrian dagger, no? that is a priceless weapon to give up to a sister that’s not using weapons.
I’m thinking Arya and Sansa are in this together against LF putting on a show for him too. Seven hells, I really hope so.
TormundsWoman,
I cannot fault Alan Taylor one bit. I’ve seen in different places where people have been giving him shit as if it is his own fault. He might be the director but he is not the producer or the one with the final say. He did the best he could with a material that he had and he tried to stretch time as much as he could visually. I agree with him about people who are pulling out rulers and protractors. Once again I’ve stated that dragons the way they are built physically should not even be able to fly at all but no one seems to be criticizing that.
Also in the very first episode of the show way back in season 1 how did the deserting Nights Watchman get from north of the wall all the way down to near Winterfell in the span of a single episode to be beheaded and how did Jaime and Cersei go from being in the great Sept to being in Winterfell all in the span of a single episode? No one seems to be bitching about that time hopping.
At the Battle of the Blackwater how is Bronn able to shoot that flaming arrow all the way over all of those ships into the middle of the bay to hit the wildfire boat perfectly? Were people bitching about his superhuman strength to be able to do that back then? The truth of the matter is this show has taken liberties from day one. So this is nothing new and it has not hurt the popularity of the show one iota.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
I saw that earlier. It’s similar to a “Jon Snow is dead” article for sure. I truly believe the Arya and Sansa rift arc IS drama. They just wanted to make the characters at Winterfell stand up against the rest of the story as much as possible. The unforeseen side effect is that viewers are confused and kind of pissed. HA!!
The Northerners are horribly written on the show. They do what the plot tells them to do without rhyme or reason. For instance, Glover was on his knees regretting not siding with Jon and proclaiming him king. Next we see, he is ready to throw Jon aside and make Sansa queen because she pointed out that armor has to be fit with leather. If the plot demands that they don’t agree with Jon that’s what they will do. Don’t apply logic and reasonable story telling to the show anymore. As this interview with Alan Taylor tells you, they don’t care anymore about it making sense – they just want to get to the end.
Clob,
*With total respect (I’m adopting your asterisk here as well haha) I have to disagree. I really think good romance is in the eye of the beholder. And from my perspective I’ve felt chemistry between Jon and Dany from their first meeting. Neither of them have met many others who are young, attractive and have had the responsibilities of leadership they have experienced. I can see the way they feel each other out at first, then begin to respect one another and finally trust each other. Her sacrificing one of her own children for what was “his cause” was a major pivot point in their relationship. In my mind he almost had to bend the knee after such a gesture. They are both vulnerable in different ways but they share strengths.
I see all of this progressing episode by episode. I will grant that they could have stretched this out over more episodes or over a longer season if they had wanted. But I disagree with those who say it is too rushed. It works and the chemistry is there. I wanted them to at least kiss during their scene on the boat. If there was no chemistry between them I wouldn’t have wanted to see such a development. At any rate, as I said, I believe this is all in the eye of the beholder. It is working for some and it is not working for others. Pronouncements that J & D have “no chemistry” need an asterisk of their own because that opinion is not shared by all.
To be sure, Clob! I read the original leaks back in October, but they’re incomplete and anything can happen outside them. But you know my feelings and I can’t help but fret. Ironically, just after I posted this I received an email about a 90-YO friend who “needs our prayers”. Not only is that upsetting, but now I feel rather guilty about caring so much for a mere fictional character. One thing’s certain: Episode 7 was already set to break all viewing records, but now… they’ll be through the roof!!
Wow, that is just insane! I thought Taylor was giving away far too much before!!!! I imagine D&D are like, we better call up Alan and explain again the covertness of what we do!
Ginevra,
I think a possible reason for this manufactured drama between Sansa and Arya may turn out to be an effort on the producers’ part to prevent any repercussions emanating from Jon’s needless decision to bend the knee.
The Northerners are probably unlikely to commit a Red Wedding style betrayal again.
But they would be willing to rebel by naming Sansa their queen or marching their armies home. And pretty much the only person who can prevent them rebelling is Sansa.
By having Arya petrify Sansa into refusing to betray Jon (personally, I wouldn’t necessarily call defending The North’s independence a betrayal), the producers could avoid any consequences for his decision.
Plus they got some (crappy) Stark vs Stark drama out of it.
I really hope that’s not how things go. If there are no negative consequences from Jon’s decision, then this isn’t the same show anymore.
Misdirection. ☺
Is it? I think he was implying that he set something up to occur and the result will be surprising. Cool. Not too spoilerish, thankfully.
I find it interesting that Alan Taylor directed the S1 episode where the dragons were born then got to direct an S7 episode where he kills one of them. He seems proud of that cycle too.
Ha! I was happy to stretch believability, but I pointed out that we were stretching by roughly estimating the time it would take (I’m a mathematician: it’s what I do!) for the raven and then the dragon. I’d actually hypothesized that the dragon wouldn’t have been traveling faster than the raven (not that it couldn’t!) in this episode because Dany’s hair was perfect. And even 30 MPH for 2000 miles with no windshield and landing with absolutely and magnificently perfect braids was a bit of a stretch. But I know the dragon without Dany or without perfect hair could go much, much, much faster.
I never wanted to nitpick, though. I just thought it was fun to throw around some rough numbers and postulations.
Clob,
Oh, I totally agree with you. As this season has progressed it’s become obvious that the producers were absolutely wrong about the amount of story they had left to tell.
They’ve underestimated how much time was necessary to convincingly sell these storylines and relationships.
Although, I still believe they could have done better with the time they had. The interactions have been repetitive and lacking detail. And this doesn’t just go for Jon and Dany’s relationship.
For example, how many more times do we need to hear Tyrion talking aimlessly to Daenerys about “building a better world”?
Alan Taylor has also talked about the incredible length of the Arya and Sansa scenes. Did Daenerys and Jon’s relationship not deserve similar such devotion?
And the producers begging the visual effects department for a wight polar bear, apparently at great expense, has been mentioned.
It just feels like they’ve had their priorities all wrong and I can feel it in how lightweight this supposedly pivotal romance between Jon and Dany comes off as.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I’m loving the Sansadrama so far! I do hope it all (including Jon’s bending) works out believably consistent with the characters as they’ve been setup for all of the previous seasons.
I can’t help but think that Hodor’s Bastard’s idea of Jon landing on Rhaegal at Winterfell would be badass enough to keep the Northern lords from wanting to overthrow him. Goodness, that would be awesome!
I’m enjoying the sped up timeline. One thing I found disappointing in past seasons [side-eyes S5] is characters like Arya not traveling very far plotwise over the course of a season. Normally, Yara pledging her allegiance to Dany would occur in S2 and being captured by Euron in S10. We got a season’s worth of her story in one episode. I was ready for shit to go down, not for Dany to get Gendry’s raven in S2 and show up beyond the wall in S7.
The whole run/raven/dragon sequence was so absurd in terms of timing, my brain refused to even attempt to calculate it. Normally it does this automatically, in seconds, when time discontinuities pop up. Of course, any time I am thinking about this crap, I am not “in” the show but outside of it. That’s not where I want to be, and not where Taylor should want his audience to be. This one was so egregious that it appears nearly everyone got dragged out of the show. That’s not good.
Knight of the Walkers,
I agree. Its common courtesy to reply to a comment albeit whether or not you agree with it. Ok, the show has its flaws and inconsistencies, but for me that doesn’t detract from the enjoyment I get from it. Its just the continual nitpicking, displeasure and the endless questions from JB-24 (many which he already knows the answers to) that winds me up 🙁
I also agree that WotW is a more friendly chat site to participate in after a season has finished. I find it just impossible to keep up with at the moment – A total overload! I usually read the new articles, but not all the comments and just skim through them picking out ones that look interesting or from posters who know what they are talking about.
I for one am glad that since GoT started, no further books have been forthcoming. I can just imagine what will happen when the WoW is published and the flood gates open to a plethora of comments comparing and criticizing the show to the book and something I will stay well clear of not being a book reader.
Dead Dane Walking,
Oh thank you for the kind words!
I recently was in the audience at the Colbert Late Night Show, and he does a Q&A just before the start of the show, and someone asked him, ‘ What do you do to get a break from the madness of the world’, and he replied, ‘ I read Tolkien, the website Arda – where you can see the maps of Middle earth before and after the Valar fought Morgoth, and the Sil, and the Tolkien Fans reddit.’
I’m not effusive, but I was the only person in the audience who was squealing and jumping – so thrilled I was to find a fellow fan who reads the same nerdy things that I do, in a ritual I cherish every day – ending the day with WoW, and with all your words.
Its a strange ritual and I’m sure I’m not the only one here who does that. Which is why I may find it somewhat disheartening to read the ‘Nits’ and their evacuations, but hey, I would miss all of you if I left.
Thank you again for the kind words.
What you described reminded me of the decision Stannis made when informed that “death marches on the wall.” Unless I’m thinking of a book quote someone here cited, I think Stannis said something like “I shouldn’t be trying to win the throne to save the realm. I should save the realm to win the throne.”
I know I botched that quote; the point is that a prospective “protector of the realm” should demonstrate that priority #1 is protecting the realm, not “taking the iron throne” or getting everyone to “bend the knee.”
I interpreted the last few scenes of E6 as Dany coming to the same realization as Stannis. I suspect it’s also what convinced Jon she was worthy of being called “my Queen.”
Of course, I expect the Northern lords to bitch and moan, and lots of griping everywhere that she’s the Mad King’s daughter so she must be mad too. (As if Queen Cersei is a paragon of mental health.)
Ginevra,
Not at all. I would not advocate for censorship if you had me stretched out on the rack.
I would argue for coherent discussion and analysis – which the features here do. All of them with exceptional writers. Not so much for some commentators, but that is how it is.
As is this, just an opinion.
Jon and dany are end game what a shock ..
Jon and Val shippers must be rioting after this interview ….I am afraid to go and see that in westeros.org …I don’t care about jonsa
I see last episode is titled dragon and wolf…
Wish they had spent more time in setting up how much dAny is rhaegar and Jon is like lyanna …
Then it would have made sense for most of show only watchers..
I loved the last episode…Just accept the show for what it is ..Pure entertainment and appreciate the works of cast and crew ..
At first I was disappointed to be not able to participate in discussions because I broke my hand but I realized it’s actually good thing because I loved the show more than I would have if I had been participating..
Well said 🙂
Believe it or not, Stannis was actually giving Davos a compliment when he said: “I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.” 🙂 One of my favorite quotes. It’s one of the reasons why some bookreaders admire him so much.
You’re right, Dany has realized that…after enormous expected cost of allies’ support, Unsullied, and Viserion. Welcome to Westeros, they’re not rolling out the red carpet and they’re defending themselves, both humans and undead. What a pickle she’s in.
I reached my opinion about her self-handicapped situation shortly after ep2 this season and have been sticking with it. She has all these great male Westerosi “advisors” surrounding her and telling her what to do and yet she was not doing what makes her unique, like overhead recon of the land that she intended to reconquer. And it hasn’t gone so well. Finally, in ep4, she gets herself in order and joins the fun in the field, but only after Jon’s words to not burn castles. Then she had a chance to be assertive with the stupid wight mission but once again, a man (Jon) had to plead for her help via supersonic raven. Yay! I respect her ambitions and inherent courage but I simply would like her to make proactive assertive decisions….
….then again, even Stannis didn’t react until he received a raven and was counseled by Davos and Mel!
Mr Derp,
Until last Sunday when Sandor used the word “whingeing”, I had never heard it before in my life. So I looked it up. According to the dictionary, it’s s British informal or dialectal word, with the following definition:
Whinge: “to complain persistently and in a peevish or irritating way.”
Courtesy of S. Baratheon
So this thread was fun. A pity it’s the middle of the week, or I’d have broken out a bottle of scotch for the occasion, and perhaps finished more of it than was wise. 😉
I’m not even going to attempt to respond to everything, particularly anything related to travel logistics. Several reasonable arguments have been made on both sides of that front, but it’s an issue about which I personally do not, have never, and never will care. Suffice it to say that I just rewatched “Beyond the Wall” for the sixth time tonight, and I still loved it unreservedly. I was still every bit as thrilled, moved, and fascinated as I was the first time that I watched it, and I don’t expect that to change.
More than anything else, I think that this past week’s episode (which, it must be said, is still being very well-received by the wider audience, especially if you expand outside of certain bubbles) has helped me embrace the should-have-been obvious fact that when I love something this much, I needn’t let outside negativity and nitpickery diminish it. To each their own. As much as I love spending time on WOTW and other websites dedicated to GOT, what the dedicated team behind this great show created is going to exist for far longer than these comment threads are. And I’ll be watching and loving the former long after I’ve forgotten that the latter ever existed.
Moments like the Beric and Jon conversation about death, Dany’s arrival to rescue the stranded party, and especially the Dany-Jon scene in the cabin of the ship have rapidly ascended onto a very short list of my favorite scenes in the entire show. Dany and Jon’s romance, as conveyed by Kit and Emilia, is absolutely working for me. In fact, I think I’m going to cap off my night by going to watch it yet again right now. Cheers, everyone.
Jade Joon,
Thank you for that. 🙂 I hope that you decide to stick around. I always enjoy hearing your perspective.
Dyanna,
Well said! Co-sign all of this.
WorfWWorfington,
Excellent ! 😆
For me, Ygritte played a pivotal role in the evolution of Jon Snow’s sense of empathy, e.g. when they argue about invading each other’s lands [paraphrasing]:
Jon: “My father was Ned Stark. I have the blood of the First Men. My ancestors lived here, same as yours.”
Ygritte: “So why you fighting us?”
PS. Their playful scene together when she makes believe she’s fainting and falls into his arms (Oh! A spider! Save me Jon Snow. My dress is made of the finest silk from Tralala-aday”) is one of my all-time favorites.
mau,
I’ll admit there’s a wee bit of disappointment for me in that. I just didn’t see this ending as an epic romance of 2 special snowflakes against the big bad world lol. Granted that’s my fault, as it was obviously building up to that very thing.
Whining. Like Wine-ing. For the love of God, it is what I heard growing up all my life. WHY is it “whinGing” all of a sudden???
Dragonbringer,
Was wondering where in the hell you went to dragonbringer. Welcome back 🙂 Sorry about your hand tho.
Ginevra,
And when Sophie says she won the Battle of the Bastards, she’s right.
When Taylor says that above I’m just like omfg not again lol. Technically she sent an SOS message. Why didn’t she have the KOTV start and finish the battle if that’s all it took to win? I really hate when Sansa gets propped up to such a degree. Those knights didn’t come because she rallied them, they came at LF’s order, and LF only wants to use her. So she used him, great, I love it. But I need to stop hearing how Sansa Stark won the battle as if it was her alone taking on that army and putting aside the fact that Jon & his men were out there on the field risking death, fighting at her behest.
Clob,
Within that outline they forgot or glossed over the time needed to form a strong, believable bond between J & D
It looks that way but I really wonder how they could possibly be shortsighted regarding the actual main subjects of the story, the big end game important union that according to George, is what the story is really about. Then again maybe it’s meant to be a fast moving, love at first sight then shit hits the fan or whatever.
I’ve got to stop coming here as it just frustrates me 🙁 It runs very slow for me also the ad keeps disturbing where I’m at by dragging me down to very bottom of page. Then it takes awhile to find where I left off reading.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I know that everyone’s entitled to their opinions but the fact that you feel Talisa and Robb’s love story was done better than Dany and Jon’s makes me shake my head in absolute disbelief.
A random healer came out of nowhere, love at first sight happens, they get about 10 minutes screentime before banging, marrying the next episode and getting pregnant after that.
Also how in Seven hells can you even compare Ned and Catelyn’s love- a happily married couple with five children- to Dany and Jon at this stage?! Ofc the latter would look weak compared to Ned and Cat, if it didn’t that would be atrocious Disney level nonsense.
Of all the examples you give, Jaime-Brienne comes closest to Jon-Dany, both start on a rocky terrain and gradually learn to respect and trust one another.
Erm..Yes, their relationship has many layers- that’s what makes it more believable and realistic. There was absolute no reason for them to trust each other straight away, they probably thought the other was proud, stubborn and even selfish at the start. But they still had mutual respect which is why Dany asks Jon for advice.
Its only when Jon and Dany see the other’s selflessness firsthand in that episode 6 fight agsint WW do they realize how wrong their initial impressions were and how much they have in common.
Also she wasn’t all heart eyed and chest heaving in episode 5. They had a perfectly normal conversation about her children, their common interest in wanting to help people and how they go about achieving that. Whether you choose to see it or not, it was clear they were comfortable in each other’s company. This is why she gets sad when he decides to go on a suicide mission.
It was the exact opposite of indifference. You don’t say “Well I’m going away on a dangerous mission and if I don’t make it back, atleast you won’t be burdened with me anymore” to someone who you feel nothing for. Its romantic undertone 101.
I guess it depends where you come from. In the U.K. whinging is a commonly used word. Used far more often than wining. I’ve often noticed us Brits are familiar with a lot of American terminology but it doesn’t seem to work the other way around. Probably the result of so much American tv and film broadcasting in our country.
I see a lot written concerning how fantasy must follow rules of reality. I’m not sure if there is a recorded flight speed for dragons, but let’s entertain the idea.
Let’s nitpick.
The simple tiny pigeon flies 80 klm/per hour. And a dragon has the size of a 747, which means that with their big wings can fly a lost faster( and very much further) than that. Let’s say 5 times faster (which would be a rather rediculous speed for a dragon but nonetheless 400 klm/hour.
Now Westeros is 3000 miles from the most Northern point to the most Southern point (Wall to Summer sea) of the continent according to Mr Martin. Let’s suppose that Dany had to travel 1000 miles -1600 klm. That would take her 4 hours.
A raven is bigger and faster than a pigeon – and we know nothing of the physiology of the fantasyWesteros raven’s which could be rather different than real life ravens. But let’s assume that they fly 100klm/hour. It would take it 16 hours to get to Dragonstone. If they fly 80klm/hour than it takes 20 hours. So, let’s take the middle of that:18 hours.
The Magnificent 7 walked from morning to late noon, less than half a day walk. Gendry run the same distance, and arrived at castle at nightfall -which by now falls lots earlier than usual (winter is here) say 6 o clock in the evening. If we assume walking that distance took 7 hours, running back would take him about 5 hours.
So he arrives at Eastwatch they send a raven which flies all night and arrives at Dragonstone the morning of next day. Dany flies back in 4-5 hours.
Magnificent 7 at the same time and while that raven flies to Dragonstone, spend the night at that icy lake, and most of the next morning until the battle begins and Dany arrives a bit later.
Entirely plausible timeline given that A) dragons do not exist in real life therefore we know not how fast they fly,and B) we now nothing about Westerosi ravens or the exact distances because it really doesn’t matter and definitely doesn’t add anything to the storytelling.
As for the plot and whether more secondary characters should die: do we know what happens next? NO! The secondary characters that have survived must have been needed to play a role affterwards in the story therefore they kept them alive. You can’t critisize why they keep someone around because you don’t know what happens next or what role Beric will play for instance in the future of the story! As I wrote elsewhere, its like critisizing why Frodo and Sam and all the other of the company that were main or essential characters to the story survived to the end! Man if the great storyteller Mr Tolkien kept them alive, he definitely knew better!
And I won’t even refer to the chains of NK, because I consider that the most outrageous whining about the plot ever; wildling villages! They had chains and lots of other stuff. They weren’t savages that lived on trees.
I personally think that most of the debate is useless and takes the joy out of the show. I would hate to be in the creator’s place, make this amazing episode, and read people constantly whining about details that mean nothing practically and ignoring the amount of work, money, love and creativity each one of the crew put into that!
I can accept critisism for the show, when it is logical and serves the show best: but what I have read until now, lacks logic, it’s nitpicking the shit out of it and most, egotistically regard that, they know everything about the story, Mr Martin’s thoughts, and how it continues, so they asign characters to do whatever they think, re -writing the story according to their own views. Mr Martin gave the directions about the story and where it goes and the writers of the show follow that general guideline. I prefer to stick with them.
Lastly, fantasy means: the faculty or activity of imagining impossible or improbable things. And with that, my rant has ended.
Dyanna,
Ah ok so it’s British. Good to know, it was bugging me lol. I’m surprised I’ve never heard it before though, having watched stuff on the BBC and Masterpiece theater 🙂
BranTheBlessed,
I wonder how many minutes of screen time they’ve actually had talking together before the final scene last episode where they’re holding hands and obviously in love. Aside from their original tense meeting that is. It just doesn’t seem to be much imo, but I could be wrong, things just overall seem different to me this season. Probably the missing 3 episodes we normally have…
Is there a limit on the lenght of comments? My previous comment did not get published.
Danny,
I agree with much of what you have said. I like ASOIAF the novels (1-3 more than 4-5 but I didn’t dislike 4-5 but I’m not really an Ironborn fan) . GRRM hooks one in with his story but I’ve never understood the notion that his story telling is so very revolutionary – and it’s quite possible to spin a good yarn without being revolutionary. Dark fantasy existed before GRRM and there were other stories told from various characters’ points of views before ASOIAF. Ice cold opponent – that existed in Hans Christian Andersen’s “The Snow Queen” (actually as a child I found HCA’s stories for the most part frightening so maybe some of them could be considered “Dark Fantasy”). Girl riding dragon – existed in the Jane and the Dragon books (before ASOIAF but admittedly not dark fantasy). Ice dragon – well I said on another thread that E Nesbit who died before GRRM was born wrote a story about an ice dragon. http://www.online-literature.com/edith-nesbit/book-of-dragons/4/ This extract from her story might explain why Drogon travelled so fast
“They went very fast, because dragons can go uphill as easily as down. You would not understand why if I told you–because you are only in long division at present; yet if you want me to tell you, so that you can show off to other children, I will. It is because dragons can get their tails into the fourth dimension and hold on there, and when you can do that everything else is easy.
The dragon went very fast, only stopping to eat the collector and the sportsman, who were still struggling to go up the slide–vainly, because they had no tails, and had never even heard of the fourth dimension.”
But I must admit GRRM had a fertile mind to bring Planetos into print whatever his inspiration may have been.
Ygritte, I answered your query about “whinge” and “whine” on another thread but here is a link that might be of interest https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2007/03/on-whinge-and-whine.html
Dyanna is probably correct above in her surmising that “whinge” is used more frequently in the UK than in the USA. Possibly the fact Messrs B & W have been spending quite some time in Europe during the making of GoT has rubbed off on them. I have heard cases of a person who moans a lot being called a “whingebag” – I’ve never heard of anyone being called a “whine-bag”. I guess “whinge” is a word that either didn’t make it across the Atlantic with the settlers of America or it fell out of use there.
Hey you are back! Sorry about your hand.
Admit it, the reason you are so pleased with this season is because Tyrion has been turned into an idiot and Dany has a better arc than most 😛
The Night King defiled the animal that is the sigil of House Mormont. That is why it had to be Jorah that delivered the killing blow.
Hah, somebody who agrees with me. Except that nightfall would not be at 6 in the evening – more like 4. The days are far shorter than the nights… soon it will be earlier and then, in the depth of winter, there will be only darkness, even much further south. That’s what ‘the long night’ implies.
However, there’s been enough about this timing thing. I enjoyed it greatly, the whole episode. On second and third watch, I found the pieces of dialogue between the magnificent seven even more enjoyable.
(PS – couldn’t post or read more last night because an ad kept jumping me back to the beginning, but this morning the site seems OK.)
What if all your life there was a country where they not only spoke English but named the language they invented after their country which they happened to call England?
What if most of the actors in Game of Thrones happened to be from that country and all THEIR life they heard Win-Ging. Imagine what they might say?
Well take it up with GRRM because that’s what he said about Jon Snow being a Fire Wight. Also Beric himself points out in episode 6 their uniqueness in that they were brought back for a purpose since they were both raised by the “Lord Of Light”.
BranTheBlessed,
Ah now Jaime and Brienne is a relationship I can get behind with no reservations. They are perhaps my favourite. They start out basically hating each other, but the journey they endure really binds them. That scene in the bath was so raw, just pure honesty. The bond they developed was depicted beautifully in the dinner scene with Bolton, where Brienne noticed Jaime struggle with his food and slammed her fork down to help him. It was just a brilliant representation of their feelings, I really believe that they know each other, flaws and all, and love each other anyway.
In contrast I don’t believe Jon and Dany know each other, not enough to sacrifice Dragons and Kingdoms. How have they never spoken about Aemon? Jon’s death? Drogo? Anything? From what I can see they know nothing about each other.
Robb and Talisa was pretty naff, but the writers had nothing to go on, in the book Robb just appears with a wife one day. But even they had honest conversations in their short scenes, I don’t think Jon and Dany have been truly honest with each other about themselves or their pasts.
Perhaps its that reserve that is the issue for me, how can they be so obviously in love when they can’t be open and honest with each other? It will probably come in time, but imo it should have happened before Dany made such a monumental and unnecessary sacrifice for a guy she barely knows.
Yeah, my Brit friends say lots of funny things! Whinging is one of my faves.
Alexis,
Exactly!!
FANTASTIC!!! Hands down – Colbert is undoubtedly my favorite talkshow host! Unfortunately he’s not on any of my TV channels, so I usually go out of my way to find, what video there is online. It’s so funny and cool that he’s such an LOTR lexicon and his photoshoots as LOTR characters are out of this world 😀 … I can’t even begin to imagine, what it must’ve been like to be in the audience and hear him tell stories about this. I’m happy for you, that you got to experience it!
Oh believe me – you’re not the only one practicing this “strange” ritual! 😉
ygritte,
Those were absolutely Taylor’s words, not mine! I did actually love Sansa’s speech because I felt it was so very true to her character and her perspective, but my personal view is that the imperious leader who expects everyone to “be on your knees thanking me” is the worst sort. George and D&D and Taylor might all have very different perspectives. We’ll just have to wait to see!
So here are the Sansa lines and some of my other favorite dialogue from the episode!
I’m still shipping the Tormund-Sandor bromance. #Tordor
Nearly all of my favorite quotes revolve around gingers! #wearethebestones
BranTheBlessed,
The fact that Robb and Talisa’s romance was more believable, despite being cliched as hell, just shows what weak sauce Daenerys and Jon are.
Robb and Talisa were afforded time to actually talk, flirt, make each other laugh, talk about their families and ambitions. We’ve had next to nothing comparable between Jon and Dany.
Instead we’ve had:
Daenerys: I named them for my brothers, Viserys and Rhaegar. They’re both gone now. You lost two brothers as well?
Jon: *nods*
Daenerys: They’re beautiful, aren’t they?
Jon: Wasn’t the word I was thinking of but..
Daenerys: *glares at him*
Jon: …but, yes. They are. Gorgeous beasts.
Daenerys: They’re not beasts to me. No matter how big they get. How terrifying to everyone else. They’re my children.
Jon: *inexplicably stares at the woman talking about her terrifying dragon-children “romantically”*
It’s weak, man. Really weak. The dialogue and direction don’t sell what they apparently expect us to take from the scenes.
They didn’t need third parties to repeatedly push the issue, incongruously declaring things like, “I’ve seen you staring at her good heart” or “even this, Jon Snow… they all fell in love with you” after only a few scenes together.
We knew Robb and Talisa were in love. They conveyed it plain as day on-screen. We knew Jon and Ygritte were in love. They conveyed it plain as day on-screen.
I mentioned Ned and Cat as a further example of how they’ve conveyed emotion between two characters in love. They clearly dedicated scenes to them connecting on a personal level and the dialogue and direction focusing on that connection. There has been little such focus between Jon and Daenerys, despite some people’s insistence that it’s been there.
And I disagree that they’ve shown many layers to their relationship. It’s all been incredibly one-note for me. And not a romantic one. At least not on Jon’s part.
As for their departure, pretending that that was a romantic goodbye is just clutching at straws. The contrast between Jon’s behaviour and that of Jorah, who is undeniably in love with her, was near polar opposites.
If we’re supposed to read some hidden level of passion that Jon’s suppressing, then they did a terrible job of conveying it in either the dialogue, acting or direction, as far as I’m concerned.
Look, we’re obviously not going to agree. You buy what they’re selling. I don’t. So there’s no need for us to go back and forth on it.
I know we could both offer anecdotes to support our points of view but, just for the record, among my peer group I’ve heard far more disbelief in the depiction of this relationship than any other on the show and I’ve seen far more people questioning it online. Even people who I know really disliked Ygritte had absolutely no doubt about the characters’ feelings from minute one.
If this is supposed to be the grand, pivotal romance that propels this entire story to its conclusion then they really should have done far better with it and dedicated far more time to it.
I’m clinging to the possibility that they’ve built it up so artificially because they intend to knock it straight down again, or because there’s something else going on with Jon’s motivations. Because otherwise it rings false.
At the very least they owe us a few one-on-one scenes that portray a more personal connection between the two of them. Maybe we’ll get them in the finale.
Why do people need to know each other to fall in love?
The first time I fell in love was when I was 12 and I knew the boy only for a few minutes. Next week we know each other 25 years and we are still best friends (not lovers anymore since he turned out to be gay). We didn’t know each other back them, but we immediately felt a connection, we knew that we were alike.
Also the boys after him, I fell in love before really knowing them. Love is a feeling, it’s about liking someone’s voice, the way they walk, smile, talk, … Really knowing each other happens after you started dating, living together, making decisions together, … Sometimes you fall in love while knowing you don’t fit together. Reason has not much to do with it, otherwise people wouldn’t divorce so often.
And Dany didn’t know that it would be so dangerous and that her dragon would die.
Jared,
I agree completely with you! I’ve also seen the episode several times and some dialogues are my favourite ever. I loved the dialogues between Tormund and The Hound, Thoros and Jorah, Jorah and Jon, Beric and Jon, Dany and Jon, … Those dialogues were very good writing and very funny/nice to see!
Chilli,
I respect your interpretation of love, we are all different in that respect and I can’t argue at all.
I’m going to steal a passage from Captain Corelli’s Mandolin to give a slightly different view (because its written far better than anything I could ever do!)
‘Love is a temporary madness, it erupts like volcanoes and then subsides. And when it subsides, you have to make a decision. You have to work out whether your roots have so entwined together that it is inconceivable that you should ever part. Because this is what love is. Love is not breathlessness, it is not excitement, it is not the promulgation of promises of eternal passion, it is not the desire to mate every second minute of the day, it is not lying awake at night imagining that he is kissing every cranny of your body. No, don’t blush, I am telling you some truths. That is just being “in love”, which any fool can do. Love itself is what is left over when being in love has burned away, and this is both an art and a fortunate accident.’
I bloody love that book lol.
Jennipeg,
You’re right I meant ‘In love’. For me being in love always ended in loving the other person. It’s a continuum, you don’t really know when being in love goes over in loving.
But it’s still not impossible to be in love without really knowing each other. And I do think Jon and Dany will end up loving too. For people who think it’s too soon, they are not yet marrying or planning to buy a house or having/adopting children together. It’s just the first phase. And it would politically be a good marriage, even without love.
Wow! I couldn’t agree more!
Haha! Now you begin to sound just like “Catspaw Assassin” on show night or vacation 😀
I never really understood why people kept talking about a growing romance between the two during the previous episodes. I honestly didn’t see any indications and also found no reason for it – that changed this past Sunday!! Emilia has been fantastic in her portrayal this year and I loved the performance of both her and Kit. Her facial expression on top of The Wall, the subtle gestures and glances in the cabin felt right… I finally believe it and feel it too!
True. Thank goodness that he’s only pledging undying fealty for himself and his entire kingdom.
Jared,
Also I agree with your other highlight choices. And my personal favorite… anyone NOT liking the chit chat between our two hot-headed Mag-7 “giants”, clearly spend their Sunday evenings watching the wrong show… I mean, how can anyone not love this sweeeeet non-PC writing and hilarious enactments by McCann and Hivju:
Tormund: “You’re the one they call The Dog.”
Sandor: “Fuck off!”
Tormund: “They told me you were mean. Were you born mean or you just hate Wildlings?”
Sandor: “I don’t give two shits about Wildlings. It’s gingers I hate.”
Tormund: “Gingers are beautiful. We are kissed by fire, just like you.”
Sandor: “Don’t point your fucking finger at me.”
(Tormund flashing his “Uh, I like this”-smile 😀 )
Tormund: “Did you trip into the fire when you were a baby?”
Sandor: “I didn’t trip, I was pushed.”
Tormund: “And ever since you’ve been mean.”
Sandor: “Will you fuck off?”
Tormund: “I don’t think you’re truly mean. You have sad eyes.”
Sandor: “You want to such my dick, is that it?”
Tormund: “Dick?”
Sandor: “Cock!”
Tormund: “Ah, dick… I like it.”
Sandor: “I bet you do.” (Clearly misunderstanding Tormund 😀 ).
Tormund: “Nope! It’s pussy for me. I have a beauty waiting for me at Winterfell… If I ever get back there! Yellow hair, blue eyes. The tallest woman you’ve ever seen. Almost as tall as you.”
Sandor: “Brienne of Tarth.”
Tormund: “You know her?”
Sandor: “You’re with Brienne of fucking Tarth?”
Tormund: “Well, not WITH her yet. But I see the way she looks at me.”
Sandor: “How does she look at you? Like she wants to carve you up and eat your liver?”
Tormund: “You DO know her.”
Sandor: “We’ve met.”
Tormund: “I want to make babies with her. Think of’em – great big monsters. They’d conquer the world.”
Sandor: “How did a mad fucker like you live this long?”
ygritte,
ghost of winterfell,
Thank you guys ..I am still not fit so I will just limit myself and hopefully will get into all my thoughts on this season in forum section…
To answer your question ghost of winter fell,no I just found it easy enough to digest everything maybe because the visual representation was done well than the leaked scripts..
It also helps that each and every one from the entire characters list has suffered and dumbed down and turned stupids whenever the plot requires…
I never thought their love for cersei and Lena would be this much
Dany the military mind or strategist is completely absent …One would expect a conqueror to have one but the only plan she seems to come up with is to burn down Red keep …
I didn’t see many people briNg this up but dany on her own is capable of leading and strategize..She is instinctive and unpredictable…
Just read her taking out the three cities and selecting the champion to fight meereen champion
I would like to order a copy of history of westeros and aegon the conqueror and garden hall to varys and others who seem to think that aerys was the only targ ever lived …
The only character I have problem with is varys ….This guy if he had done his job to Robert the realm would have been fine or better than how it is now ….He will never be satisfied with anyone because there will be no such thing as Perfect ruler and he should be more honest in this that he wants someone as his puppet under his control and stop about caring the realm
I just love that it was dany who brought up Jon fighting up boltons to take up winter fell and aegon ….And that this entire ice and fire thing is resolved and dany too is important and not a simple red herring like many claiming…
It would have been nice to see some viserian interaction between dany because it would have been even more impactful for show viewers when you consider that viserian is the only one
that went silently to her mother to get chained ..
That thought another lady might have been dany and disappointed that it was not dany..
And the one who wanted dany to carry him on her shoulder even after growing big..
After all the talk about how easy it will be for dragons to just come and kill WW over the years …Who would have thought NK only required a single spear to kill one. ..
lol, that properly made me laugh.
Jennipeg,
You are so wrong, firstly Daenerys and Jon relationship is evolving with every episode.
And Dany was ready to marry someone from Westeros for alliances. She said so. It was her plan.
And then she met Jon, and not only is he the King in The North, someone she wants as an ally, but marrying him would make the people like her… people who don’t like her because she’s foreign born… or at least, they could accept JON, as from Westeros.
And on TOP of that, he thinks the way she does about people and leadership.
And on TOP of that, he’s heroic and brave.
And on TOP of that, her dragons like him.
and on TOP of that, when he went away she found she didn’t like it at all and when she realized he wasn’t dead, she realized she actually really LIKED this guy.
She’s met AN EQUAL.
She’s never met an equal before. Not someone like him who she could be a partner with. And she LIKES him.
It’s not rushed. It’s politically logical. And it’s two young, pretty people who kind of fit each other. It’s chemistry.
I’d say they’re more falling in love than actually IN love. They like everything they see. IN those circumstances, it makes perfect sense they’d want to fall for each other, being politically advantageous. It would be the best course, to actually LIKE each other.
About Jon and Ygritte
Jon’s relationship with Ygritte was more organic and I did enjoy it while it was happening. But I feel strongly that if he met her in a different circumstance than trying to live among the wildlings as a sort of spy, things would not have played out the way they did between them.
But Jon and Dany are actually similar and their relationship will actually be built on mutual admiration and shared goals. For the first time EVER in either of their lives. It’s so huge for them, and it’s so huge for literally everyone else in the show whose lives will be affected by their alliance and their love.
Dragonbringer,
Also I am very glad to see the amount of appreciation Emilia is getting this season…..
Ginevra,
This. Im sure none of you would want to be on the receiving end of something like this.
Ok read through what seems like a thousand posts, trying to find what made me so uneasy about the last episode. It wasn’t just the timing (tho I do agree with the post that said fantasy should be logical within the rules of its own world) it wasn’t just the Arya and Sansa thing being off, or a thousand other things that people have mentioned. Its that for the first time since watching this show, I have been let down. Oh everything looked beautiful and the action was thrilling – but it honestly felt like they had taken two episodes, squished it into one, and tried to pull it off. I totally understood the reason for a 7 episode season, but not at the expense of the story. This episode for a variety of reasons needed to be two. The dialogue would have been better, background for the various scenes would have been connected better, the timeline woul d have not been a problem. IT would not have felt so rushed and disjointed. I guess they had to do it that way, but the outcome was rather disappointing to me. I still love this show, and the worst is 10 times better than anything on tv. It just could have been done better. Im hoping this Sunday it has a chance to redeem itself.
WorfWWorfington,
Yesssss
Ah, but this made her the “hero” riding into the rescue. That’s a real flip-flop on the usual setup: the pretty princess with a dragon saves the asses of the valiant knights. Even Princess Leia needed men to break her out of the cell!
As for Daenerys anticipating this, that would be asking for a lot, I think. It’s remarkably enough that she’s accepted that White Walkers are real and back. Indeed, I would think almost unbelievable, except for one thing: it was clear that Daenerys already had a good old fashioned crush on Jon, and when you have a crush on someone, well, you round up a bit. (Half a century into life, and I still remember that!)
Having made that jump, should Daenerys have completely accepted how vast the threat was? One thing that sociological studies have shown is that the lay-people who accept climate change come in two types: the ones who accept the scientific literature, and the ones who have personally felt how the change in climate over the last quarter to third of a century has affected their lives. It’s the latter group who is much more concerned. Daenerys is the person who has read about the papers and accepts that scientists (here, Jon & Davos) know about what they are talking; Jon is the guy who has seen rain and temperature patterns shift so much that his farm is completely effed up. Or I should write that Daeny was that person: now that she’s lost a dragon, she knows just how dangerous this is. But until she suffered the equivalent of another diminished crop, she was not going to completely get it.
(This is the folly of Littlefinger’s advice, too: nobody can imagine every possible outcome, or even a small fraction of them; and this outcome should have been outside of Daenerys’ imagination because she didn’t know what was any of this meant.)
And it’s so well-earned!
Tycho Nestoris,
I see your predicament, so that will suffice for now… But I’ll have my eye on the money trails from Braavos 😉
heh, true: but, that written, it does make me laugh at the cognitive dissonance involved.
Some fans last year: “The Northern Lords who didn’t uphold the vows to the Starks that their ancestors made centuries ago are BAD PEOPLE!!!”
Some fans this year: “How can Daenerys expect Jon to honor an oath that his ancestors made centuries ago? She’s a BAD PERSON!!!”
One recurring aspect of this story is that blind loyalty is not necessarily good (as it is in so many tales), and that competent leaders have to learn that loyalty must be earned over and over and over. “What have you done for me lately” is how humans, dogs and probably even dragons work. Ned Stark “got it” but we don’t know how long it took him to learn it: Jon, Tyrion, Sansa and now Daenerys seem to have to learn this from trial and error.
Dead Dane Walking,
Oh yes it is hopefully it will fetch her an Emmy next year…
Well, according to those criteria, The Hound is “Fire Wight” too.
In S6e7, Brother Ray describes finding Sandor in terms suggesting he was clinically dead, i.e. an apparently lifeless corpse starting to decompose.
As for being “brought back for a purpose” by the Lord of Light, Beric as well as Thoros and Ray repeatedly said the same thing about Sandor, e.g.:
S3e5
Beric> Sandor:
“Go in peace, Sandor Clegane. The Lord of Light isn’t done with you yet. ”
S6e7
Ray > Sandor
“There’s a reason you’re still here.”
“The gods aren’t done with you yet. ”
[Doesn’t know of it’s “the Seven” or “the Lord of Light”, but…] “What matters, I believe, is there’s something greater than us. And whatever it is, it’s got plans for Sandor Clegane.
S6e8
Thoros + Beric > Sandor
Thoros:
“Clegane, we’re here for a reason. The Lord of Light is keeping Beric alive for a reason. He gave a failed, drunk priest the power to bring him back for a reason. We are part of something larger than ourselves. ”
Beric: “The Lord of Light gave you the power to defeat me. Why?… You can still help a lot more than you’ve harmed, Clegane. It’s not too late for you.”
_______
This would raise some interesting questions, chiefly among them: Since we now know there are wight polar bears, wight horses, and a wight/WW dragon (😩)….
What about wight chickens? 💀🐓🐓🐔💀?
That would be so sweet! She had her ups and downs along the way, but she is really blooming this season. Emilia has been such a refreshing and positive light to the acting world and deserves to be recognized for it – preferably with an Emmy 😉
Ten Bears,
I seriously doubt The Hound is a fire wight since he wasn’t raised from the dead in the same way that Jon Snow and Beric were. But if he is then so it. My point is that GRRM described Jon and Beric as being Fire Wights and that they are not the same as they were before their death and resurrection.
Ten Bears,
Nice work, TB!! 🙂 This is exactly why I wrote Sandor “Undead Joker” Clegane in another comments a few days ago! Definitely think there could be something to it.
Well…unfortunately I have to leave my keyboard for a while…gotta make sure my house ain’t surrounded by wight chickens 😀 😛 Yikes!!!
Jared,
oh absolutely, likewise!
Dead Dane Walking,
Oh I wasn’t a fan, till he nerded out on Tolkien on stage, and then, I was a fan for life!
There are definitely some fair critiques for this episode, and I have my own critiques, but all in all I still feel like it was a great episode, there was some suspense and Drama and the ending of the episode was a great pay off. As far as the other critiques that I have seen such as the teleporting, and the Deus ex Machina, I don’t think that it’s unprecedented and I actually think that it stays true to the show.
In terms of the time travel, we don’t know how far away from the wall that they actually traveled to, if it’s possible for the messenger at Marathon to deliver a message to the Greeks about the incoming Persian invasion in less than a day I think it’s possible for Gendry to make it back to the wall in the same night, maybe he was really the fastest…lol. As far as the messenger pigeons that’s not that unbelievable either, we’ve seen messages get from one part of westeros to the next part all within the same scene. Last episode for instance Bran saw the white walkers on the move and got the ravens to John in the next scene. As far as the thing with Benjen is concerned he did the same thing for Bran and Meera last season so that isn’t far fetched, he appeared last season so the set up was already there.
Wrong about Glover. If you actually watch the show you know it’s because none of the northern Lords wanted John to go down to Dragonstone because they remember the last time there was a Targaryen on the throne and they don’t trust Danerys. Also it was pretty clearly shown that John has been gone for some time and they are concerned about him not coming back. It has nothing to do with Sansa telling smiths to put leather on the armor. If that’s really what you got out of all of that then you just are not paying attention. Also Littlefinger clearly was shown talking to Glover so you can expect that he is sowing seeds of doubt as well.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
You just appear hellbent on glossing over all the subtle moments that portray Dany-Jon gradually falling in love. It appears you want these moments to be more pronounced, their feelings more outwardly and easily recognizable.
But I ask, would that fit into the characters-their backstories, their status in the story and the current context? Jon and Dany are the heroes and as such, their romance has to be tasteful, it has to be classy. How silly would it look given their starting point ( Zero trust ) if they started flirting ( ala Robb/Talissa) or open lust ( talking virginity, sexual organs, ripping pretty silk dress etc-ala Jon/Ygritte ) given the context that these are two people who are leading others to the Great War?
Why exactly is it so important to talk more about their families, how does that make romance better? Its funny because, I think this is actually the only couple who have referenced to family members in multiple conversations. If memory serves right, I don’t recall Jon and Ygritte ever talking about their mother and father and brothers. What in depth discussion did Robb and Talissa share re their families?
Are you really gonna pretend there were no third parties commenting on Jon-Ygritte and Robb-Talissa romance?
That boat scene pretty much heavily conveyed Jon and Dany have fallen in love. You just appear to have a bizarre reluctance to see it.
Jon : ‘If I don’t come back, atleast you won’t have to deal with the King of the North anymore’
Dany: ‘I’ve grown used to him’
How does one not see the subtle romantic undertone here? What the eff did you expect? Jon to go down to one knee and make some ridiculous romantic admission or to kiss her ala Jorah? Apply a bit of realism to the situation.
naerys,
Ok so i’m wrong, i’m sorry I feel unmoved by their relationship. I’m glad you are enjoying it.
Well, I reached the point where I need to scroll past almost all the comments. I sense almost zero enthusiasm and passion this season. I don’t come to this site to see people complaining and nitpicking. Last year, I was always enthusiastic to write my reviews at the end of the episode, sharing my enjoyment with the members. This year, I don’t feel anything at all on this site with exception of very few members… Instead of seeing comments what people liked, the majority of comments are what people didn’t like and for me, that’s not a point of a fansite at all. Sure, some constructive criticism is welcome but what is a point of a FANsite if negativity is the main focus? It seems disrespectful to the show in my opinion.
And please, no “being positive is boring” statements, because I get proof of the opposite every single day.
Honestly the latest episode is better upon 2nd and even my case 3rd viewings…lol, believe it or not some things that seemed off the first time around actually makes more sense and seems to flow better. I still think the ending of the episode is a real payoff that will shift the narrative even more in a good way. I thought it was brilliant of the director to show Viserion emerging from the ice the same way that he went into the ice, it had a striking symmetry and the image made me think of rebirth.
BranTheBlessed,
Like I said, we don’t have to go back and forth on this.
You’re seeing things that I don’t see or don’t believe have been credibly conveyed. That’s your opinion.
And I expect certain things to be conveyed on-screen in order to convincingly portray a developing personal connection that you are happy to overlook or downplay. That’s fine.
Although the fact that you question what conversations Robb and Talisa had about family suggests you may have forgotten exactly how these other relationships were portrayed on-screen, since Robb and Talisa talked about their families and backgrounds in pretty much every scene together.
For example:
Talisa: Is she beautiful?
Robb: I never met her.
Talisa: What’s her name?
Robb: Frey, I suppose. I don’t know her first name.
Talisa: I’m sure you’ll be very happy together.
Both: *laughs*
Talisa: And you’re marrying her for a bridge
Robb: An important bridge. It was before they killed my father. I still thought I could march south and rescue him in time. But only if I crossed that bridge.
Talisa: When I speak to people from The North, they all loved your father.
Robb: He was the best man I ever met. I know children always think that about their fathers, but he truly…
Talisa: Children do not always think that about their fathers, believe me.
Robb: He once told me that being a Lord is like being a father. Except you have thousands of children. And you worry about all of them. Farmers ploughing fields are yours to protect. The charwomen scrubbing the floors, yours to protect. The soldiers you order into battle. He told me he woke with fear in the morning and went to bed with fear in the night. I didn’t believe him. I asked him, how can a man be brave if he’s afraid? That is the only time a man can be brave, he told me.
Talisa: I wish I could’ve met him.
Robb: He would’ve liked you.
Talisa: Most lords worry more about their gold and their glory than about the charwomen scrubbing their floors.
Robb: He didn’t care much about gold or glory.
Talisa: And do you?
Robb: You think I’m fighting this war so they’ll sing songs about me? I want to go home. I want the men following me to go home.
Talisa: Then why don’t you?
Robb: Because we’ll never be safe until the Lannisters are defeated. And because I believe in justice.
Talisa: Chopping off Joffrey’s head, you mean.
Robb: That would be a start.
*They’re interrupted with the news of Jaime Lannister’s escape*
That scene lasted 2 minutes.
Now, I’m sorry, but to me that is a far more comprehensive illustration of their budding relationship in one scene than we have been shown between Jon and Daenerys all season.
I suggest you go and rewatch the Robb/Talisa and Jon/Ygritte relationships from the start to remind yourself of how convincingly two characters can be shown to grow closer when the producers actually take the time to devote a few minutes of exposition here and there to establishing their relationship.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
And I suggest you go see some romantic films. There are many ways to to show a growing personal connection between two people, it doesn’t always have to be achieved via narration of life and family histories.
Dany letting her facade crumble and show vulnerability for the first time since season 1 is far more powerful a scene than Robb and Talissa talking a few sentences about Ned Stark. Something tells me Jon will follow up and open up about his death and resurrection to Dany in the next episode.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
you can’t compare Robb/Talisa with Jon/Dany their circumstances are differents Daenerys and Jon have actually time to learn about each other and trust each other.
Let’s be fair Talisa didn’t know anything about Robb’s family, that is why the talk about it,she wants to learn about his family and lifestyle
Daenerys actually grow up with the histories of the Rebellion, including who Eddard Stark was,she talk about it when she first meet Jon. Why would they even discuss it again? it doesn’t make any sense.
Besides Jon and Dany are build in trust in learning about it each other and realize that they have a lot in common than they seen to have. Robb and Talisa it was build in passion, lust and impulsive love.
I don’t really see the point of comparison, both relationship are portrayed differently, because the people in them are different.
You can’t expect every relationship to be the same, is not realistic or logic.
Sorry I’m late to the party (kinda my thing). But in Eastwatch, when Gendry is meeting Jon, Longclaw’s eyes “do” the same thing. It’s just the flickering of light, guys.
I know, I know…. it sounds cool.
BranTheBlessed,
I’ve seen a million romantic films, thanks. And watched a million relationships play out on film and TV over the years. Doesn’t make what they’ve shown between Jon and Dany any more convincing or up to the standards that I expect from this show. Sorry.
naerys,
Obviously it doesn’t have to be identical.
Robb/Talisa, Jon/Ygritte, Brienne/Jaime, Sam/Gilly, Tyrion/Shae, Jaime/Cersei, Ned/Cat… they’re all different relationships between different characters… all portrayed convincingly, in my opinion.
But they all featured what I considered convincing expository and relationship focused scenes, dialogue and direction, that lent their connection a credibility that I haven’t seen in the depiction of Jon and Dany’s romance.
The fact that you don’t think they need to speak about Ned again sums up the problem, as far as I’m concerned.
Like with Robb, Ned was a huge influence on the man that Jon is. Understanding Ned helps build a convincing appreciation of who Jon is.
Last episode he spoke about Ned to both Jorah and Beric in order to form a connection. Yet you think he doesn’t need to speak about Ned with the woman who he’s supposedly fallen for?
The one thing that Daenerys mentions about Ned is wrong.
She thinks that Ned stood by and did nothing when Robert tried to have her killed.
That’s actually a shining example of just how impersonal their relationship has been so far.
And until they address things like that (perhaps they will, in the finale or next season) their romance will ring false for me.
The fact that the producers have avoided personal conversations like this, along with revelations such as what happened to Sam’s father and brother, is one of the reasons I wonder if the superficiality I see in the relationship so far is by design, because they don’t intend for it to last.
All this talk about relationships makes me want SanSan to happen.
AF
ygritte,
Glad to help. Funnily enough the same thought occurred to me, as occurred to Dame of Mercia in that the large number of Brits in the cast may well have used the term regularly enough for the show’s writers to have picked up on, and then thought they’d use it in the script.
They are also correct about the term “whinge-bag”. My son is now grown up but as a child, I often called him a whinge-bag lol.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Ever since the start Daenerys all she have , said to jon all that she is been through, and she literally says that the dragons are the only children she would ever have.And she reminds that to him in that boat scene and even make sure he understand that, she thinks she can’t have more children, that is huge, but Jon already knows this important fact.That is an important fact for her that she doesn’t want to discuss to anyone, not even with Tyrion, but she makes sure Jon knows this.
She looks vulnerable with him, almost in tears, Daenerys doesn’t show how she feels a lot, but she shows vulnerability when she is with Jon.
And she mentions his brother and how she lost two brothers too, that is on their first talk alone.
Not to mention that he reads a letter about Bran and Arya being alive in front of her. I mean they are important to him, they are his siblings, and he doesn’t hesitate.
Besides she sees his scars, why would they show this? they make sure that we know that she sees them. Is something personal for Jon, but she sees them.
If that is not personal talk idk what it is.
Jon adress Ned with Beric and Jorah, because they actually meet him, the same with Gendry, they bond is through someone they have in common.
I think that she will hear about Ned soon. But we need to keep in mind that Ned is a delicate topic between them,as you say she needs to learn about Ned, but is too soon. Is not the right time to talk about it.
The others relationship didn’t have that problem, but this one has it. I think it would better if she hears about him in Winterfell,around his kids and maybe in front of his statue and around the people who knew him.
But everyone has different opinion but i really believe is not the right time.
naerys,
“even make sure he understand that, she thinks she can’t have more children, that is huge, but Jon already knows this important fact”
When did they acknowledge that Jon already knows she can’t have children? Are you sure?
Raenarys,
In the boat scene, she tells him that the dragons are the only children she would ever have:
Jade Joon,
Haha great!
Just goes to show, it’s never too late to find the good things in life 😉
Ali Oop,
I really like Brans music, it sounds really eerie and dreamy, it really takes me to a place of nature where all the seasons run together. What about you?
I just don’t understand why someone would leave this wonderful site and community just because people have different opinions. I think all opinions are valid, even though being overly critical and nitpicky can be annoying sometimes, I think it’s all part of the fun in the discussion. I can’t think of a single piece of literature that everyone loves or that everyone has the same exact opinion on it, even Shakespeare believe it or not has people nitpicking over character motivations, pacing and stuff like that 600 years later. One way or another this show will go down in history.
naerys,
Right. But you said he ALREADY knew. He did not. That was Dany telling him for the first time.
TheScribe,
Re-read the interview, because you’re misquoting GRRM. He said that Beric was a fire wight, specifically leaving Jon out. All he had to do was say “Right, and they are both fire wights” when the reporter brought up Jon, but he didn’t. He only said this about Beric, and while Show Jon and Show Beric are the same, the conclusion that Jon is a fire wight is grounded in the assumptions that a) Show Beric and Book Beric are also the same, and b) Book Jon’s stabbing will have the exact same resolution, note for note, that Show Jon’s did. This is where the false equivalency comes from. But lets move from assumptions to facts for a minute. You have to literally ignore what you’ve seen on the show with your own eyes in order to conclude that Jon is a fire wight. We’ve already witnessed that he eats, drinks, sleeps, requires oxygen to survive, feels pain, and his wounds have scarred over. They’re deep and gnarly, but some have unmistakably closed. Jon demonstrably has multiple vital systems functioning, and has said jack shit to Davos or anyone else who knows he died about anything not working. How is he a fire wight by GRRM’s definition?
Thank you guys. I wholeheartedly agree with all of you.
Thank you Spaewife, I loved the episode and looking forward to the last one! 🙂 Exactly so, it’s not called the Long night for no reason! As winter is here officially, the night falls earlier and the light is getting more and more dimished. 4 seems very plausible!
Which reminds me the famous quote ‘For the night is dark and full of terrors’! Mel has to be quoting something that was said from the years of the mythical Long Night, of the forgotten past. God, I hope there is something helpful in those books Sam took from the Citadel about that, and how humans and allies, won that war! 🙂
I’ve enjoyed reading the debate about Jon and Dany’s blossoming relationship, so thank you to all of you. Great contributions.
I se it very much in the same way Bran The Blessed does.
For me it’s superbly written, totally in character for both J & D, and the most relatable romance they’ve portrayed on screen so far.
No doubt GOT will rain on my parade by next season 🙈
Just rewatched the episode after soaking everything in over the last few days and all the critics are a bunch of cunts. It was awesome.
Also the Longclaw eye theorists are idiots. Its clearly water splashing. Dorks, errrrr cunts.
Jade Joon,
Thumbs up for your comment.
I rarely comment too.
I read most articles and like you, really appreciate the analysis, new features set up this season on this website.
I used to read all comments as well, now I only skim and read articulate and / or funny commentators like ACME, Jared, Wimsey, Ten Bears, RG, AsharaD, Ginevra, Lulus Mum, Pigeon, Alba, Mau to name a few (sorry I know I forget some of you but I just can’t remember your names right now).
I enjoy the show as it is, yes there are flaws and imperfections, but it’s still the best show ever. It has allowed us to fear, be delighted, be angry for / about the characters and escape reality for a few hours every year for the past 7 years.
I am not saying that criticizing is always pointless or negative, but shouldn’t we just sit back and take the show for what it has to offer which is great acting and a wonderful story over all.
Jennipeg,
I totally agree.
WorfWWorfington,
Just lol, especially at the last part with Daenerys & Drogon.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Agreed !
The Gendry running back to Eastwatch didn’t really bother me, I’d assumed they were only a few miles North of the wall anyway. On second and third watch it’s pretty obvious the survivors are trapped on the island over night too so the raven and dragons thing is sort of explained. That said, how did Dany find them and arrive just in the nit of time? It’s just all a bit below the exceptionally high standards the show sets and I just have the sense things could have been better with a little more fine tuning.
I am a massive fan of this show, the books and the writers (D&D/GRRM) however you sum up my feelings when watching this episode. It was Dorne and Daznaks pit all over again where the bad bits over shadow all the good stuff.
I was having the exact same problem the other day! Seems to have resolved itself now though.