10 Crazy Theories We Believed Were Gospel Before Watching Game of Thrones Season 6
(In increasing order of bizarreness)
A Guest Post by Aishwarya
Game of Thrones has sparked more frenzied discussions, controversies and theories than any fantasy series before. Some, like R+L=J (the popular theory that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark) are more or less canon, while others are a bit wackadoodle. In the good old days before season 6 came out, there were a ton of theories doing the rounds (some touted as canon by fans) that were made mincemeat of by the ruthless pen of George R.R. Martin- or David Benioff and Dan Weiss- as soon as season 6 was released. Let’s see how right or wrong we were.
[Note: Spoilers for All Five A Song of Ice and Fire novels]
10. Bran Stark is a time traveler.
Old Theory: One of the earliest shockers on Game of Thrones is nine-year old Bran Stark being pushed out of a window by Jaime Lannister, and losing the use of his legs. According to one fan, though, the catalyst for the chain of events that make up the grand epic fantasy that is A Song of Ice and Fire could very well be Brandon Stark himself.
In the fifth novel, A Dance with Dragons, Bran gains the ability to oversee future, present, and past events through the eyes of the weirwood tree. He can whisper and influence events to a degree, as is evident in the book by Theon Greyjoy overhearing Bran while near the weirwood. We have also seen that Bran is capable of warging into and controlling not only animals, but humans. He has, on occasion, warged successfully into Hodor, after all. It doesn’t take a huge flight of fancy to imagine Bran travelling into the past, warging into Jaime Lannister, and pushing his own past self out of the window.
Except why on earth would he do that to himself? According to this theory, the answer probably lies in his weirwood magic. The likelihood of Bran having witnessed an alternate timeline where he is NOT paralyzed, but Westeros is in a shambles with White Walkers having taken over the land, is quite high. Bran could conceivably have set in motion a chain of events that would counter this possibility, and that might have necessitated him being thrown out of the window.
Now: We do know that Bran can indeed time travel, and maybe even influence events. But there have been no signs of him displaying any tendencies to push himself hurtling to his own injury yet.
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9. Jon Snow will become a White Walker.
Old Theory: The biggest threat to Westeros, or to humans in general, has to be the band of undead and seemingly indestructible ice creatures known as the White Walkers. The only defense against them is the ever-dwindling Night’s Watch- a ragtag bunch of thieves, rapists, and outlaws. Led by Jon Snow, the Night’s Watch is insufficient to counter the threat posed by the White Walkers, and their immensely dangerous leader, the Night’s King. Fabled in the books to be a former member of the Night’s Watch who fell in love with a White Walker and switched sides, the Night’s King is especially proficient at reanimating the dead as cold, blue-eyed wights.
The Night’s King and Jon Snow have already had a showdown once on the show, at Hardhome. If he kills Jon Snow and reanimates him as a wight, Jon Snow will have no choice but to turn against his former allies and brothers. What doesn’t seem like a very nice prospect for Snow, could well mean poetic justice for the book. Jon Snow would be the ice to Dany’s fire, in A Song Of Ice And Fire.
Now: Well, he did die and come back to life. Not as an ice-cold soulless killing machine, though. But as a smarter and hotter (just ask the girls) Lord Snow, determined to reclaim his home and inheritance.
![GOT_ep605_Cut_I_vam_20160418_00164408[1]](https://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/GOT_ep605_Cut_I_vam_20160418_001644081.jpg)
8. “Hodor” has a secret meaning that could change everything.
Old Theory: “Hodor. Hodor hodor, hodor. Hodor.” A minor character in the books, Hodor has inspired many a meme for the online fandom. While Hodor jokes abound on the internet, some suspected there could be more to this giant of a man than just comic relief.
It’s obvious that Hodor has witnessed or been through something extremely traumatic that made him lose the skill of speech, and to communicate in a rudimentary fashion, using just the one word, “Hodor.” What if this traumatic experience in Hodor’s past holds the key to the major conflict in Game of Thrones? Hodor knows, or has seen something happening, presumably at Winterfell. If he could somehow be induced to tell, the listener would be in possession of considerably important information. Bran could coerce this knowledge out of Hodor using his warging abilities, but what is more likely is that the gist of the information lies in the word “Hodor” itself- possibly in coded form. Does his very name control dragons? A far-out theory, but if it had turned out to be true, it could have major ramifications for the White Walker-Night’s Watch tussle.
Now: “Hold the door” went on to become the most anticipated episode in the entirety of season 6, with the reveal of Hodor’s origins. The story behind Hodor’s limited speech, was interesting, sure, but a little lame too, considering it didn’t really have far-reaching ramifications for the story.
7. Bran ate Jojen?
Old Theory: Yes, you read that right. One of the more bizarre theories out there suggests that Bran Stark may have the remains of Jojen Reed resting inside his alimentary canal. The end of A Dance with Dragons has Jojen looking “weary” and “haunted,” and Bran being inducted into the ways of the three-eyed crow (three-eyed raven in the show), with a bowlful of what looks a lot like blood. (Or Jell-O.)
This “blood stew” is offered up to Bran by the three-eyed crow, and is described in the books as a “white paste, with dark red veins running through it,” and it looked “uncannily like blood.” The concept of cannibalism and blood sacrifice has been explored thoroughly in A Dance with Dragons. Added to this the fact that Jojen Reed seemed to sense his upcoming death, judging by his less than cheerful premonitions throughout the book, and we have the perfect recipe for “Jojen Paste.”
Now: Hasn’t been disproved, but we can safely assume this isn’t where the writers are headed.
6. Bolt-On: Roose the Vampire
Old Theory: The Bolt-On Theory suggests that Roose Bolton is secretly a vampire. Bolton has been described as ageless and immortal in the books. His eyes are cold and gray! He has mask-like skin! Ergo, Roose Bolton is a vampire! This extremely well-reasoned theory (yes, sarcasm) adds vampires to the smorgasbord of mythical creatures already on GoT including zombies and dragons.
The only sane thing to do in this situation would be to push him out into the sun and see if he sparkles.
Now: Bolton’s death brought a short-lived end to that theory. Unfortunate, because it would have been satisfying to watch him sink his fangs into his diabolical son’s neck and suck him dry.
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5. The Valonqar isn’t Jaime or Tyrion.
And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.
Old Theory: Maggy the Frog’s prophecy to Cersei Lannister has sparked off many a discussion across forum boards. In A Feast for Crows, the Valonqar prophecy follows Maggy’s prediction that Cersei’s children will have gold crowns and gold shrouds. The show depicted the gold shroud prophecy but not the Valonqar.
The prophecy has been interpreted in many ways, but what intrigues readers the most is the identity of “the Valonqar.” Cersei seems to have taken it for granted that the Valonqar is her little brother Tyrion, so he is naturally ruled out by readers, leaving Jaime as the one.
The word “valonqar” means “little brother” in High Valyrian. However fans of the series have been quick to point out that the witch refers to the little brother, and not your little brother, which means that the Valonqar does not have to be related to Cersei at all, but could be any younger brother in the series.
Possible candidates include Tommen (Joffrey’s younger brother), who is shown to be getting tired of his mother’s constant interfering; Stannis Baratheon, who is Robert’s younger brother, and is likely to call a siege upon King’s Landing any day; or the Hound (the younger Clegane brother), who has fled King’s Landing, but might team up with Arya to kill Cersei, whom she hates.
Now: We still don’t know who the Valonqar is, but there’s a very good chance it will be Jaime, especially after finding out in the season 6 finale that Cersei unwittingly caused the death of his only remaining offspring.
4. Tyrion is Tywin Lannister’s only true heir.
Old Theory: “Ýou are no son of mine” were Tywin Lannister’s last words to his son Tyrion, just before he died as the result of arrows loosed by Tyrion himself. The tumultuous and bitter father-son relationship depicted in the books has long been a hot topic of discussion between ASoIaF fans. They have also led many to speculate that Tyrion may in fact not be Tywin’s real son, but the result of a union between Joanna Lannister and Aerys Targaryen, the then-king of Westeros. (J+A=T, anyone?)
But some wild theories out there would have us believe that not only is Tyrion Tywin’s true son, he is Tyrion’s only true son and heir.
The Mad King Aerys is known to have lusted after Tywin’s wife Joanna, and may have taken certain liberties during their wedding night, according to the books. If Joanna and Aerys slept together on her wedding night, it is likely that Jaime and Cersei, being the first-born children, are secretly half Targaryen. This theory is cemented by their fair hair and their propensity for incest- both known Targaryen characteristics. If this turns out to be true, that would mean that Tyrion is Tywin Lannister’s only son ,and the true heir to Casterly Rock.
Unless, of course, he turns out to be a Targaryen too…
Now: Still plausible, although season 6 has lent more weight to Tyrion being a Targaryen, what with his affinity for dragons.
3. Varys is a merman/mermaid.
Old Theory: This one clearly takes the cake for the most crackpot theory out there. The only canonical basis for the assumption that the sly, scheming eunuch Lord Varys is a merman seems to be the sea-related metaphors he made earlier on in the series.
In A Clash of Kings, when Tyrion threatens to have him thrown off a ship, Varys very enigmatically replies that he might well be “disappointed by the result..I keep on paddling.” His story about being a eunuch- if it is indeed a story and not the plain truth- provides perfect cover for him not being able to procreate with humans. (Which is something a merman wouldn’t be able to do. Or would he?) In addition to that, Varys is often described as being “slimy’” and has an affinity for water.
Now: It hasn’t been proved or disproved yet, but….yeah. No.
2. Hodor is the real Aegon Targaryen!
Old Theory: I have to admit, this theory made me sit up and take notice. Out of all the crackpot theories out there, this one is either the most foolish, or the closest to the truth. Fans have long suspected that the Aegon Targaryen shown in the books is a fake Targaryen planted by Illyrio Mopatis and Varys to gain control over the throne. The fact that the showrunners chose to do away with the Aegon plotline entirely lends credence to the fact that Young Griff-as-Aegon simply isn’t very important. But what if Aegon Targaryen is alive- only not who he claims to be?
According to this theory, Hodor is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell. Aegon VI is said to have had his head smashed against the wall by the Mountain during the siege of King’s Landing. That would explain Hodor’s simple-mindedness and his inability to formulate words other than “Hodor.” While the timeline of the story would have Aegon be in his teens, and Hodor obviously appears older, that could just be him being big for his age. Targaryens have a history of mental instability, and that fits in perfectly with Hodor. What better disguise for young Aegon than to be a stable boy at the Starks? If, as is theorized, Ned Stark went in looking for his sister Lyanna, and instead found baby Aegon lying injured on the floor, it would be unthinkable for him to do anything but rescue the baby. This is Ned Stark we’re talking about, after all.
Now: Sadly Hodor’s death put paid to that theory, may he rest in peace. But Hodor as a Targaryen would have been beyond amazing.
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1. The world as we know it will end.
Old Theory:
Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
Robert Frost’s iconic poem, “Fire and Ice,” makes it very clear that the world’s end lies either in fire or in ice. The title of George R.R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire, is too close to “Fire and Ice” to be ignored. Martin’s epic series could very well finish with the world ending, falling prey to the fearsome and seemingly immortal White Walkers.
ASoIaF being an apocalypse story is a theory that doesn’t hold much water. However, let us examine the facts.
It is known that the White Walkers, apart from being nearly impossible to kill, have the ability to reanimate the dead, thereby replenishing their troops whenever required. Even with the combined might of the Seven Kingdoms, the Night’s Watch, and Daenerys and her dragons, the White Walkers are hard to defeat. To add to that, Westeros seems to be ignoring the looming threat and is involved in a petty tussle to decide who sits on the Iron Throne, leaving the defense of the Wall to a handful of fighters with dwindling supplies. If the White Walkers decide to attack before Westeros gets its act together, they will almost certainly win, ending the world.
This will also fit with the larger message Martin has been striving to convey, which is that winter is the biggest threat, not swords or wars. The internal conflicts in the realms of men are insignificant when it comes to the threats posed by nature. The world ending in an apocalyptic attack would be the perfect end to George R.R. Martin’s series, because as Ramsay Bolton says, “If you thought this was going to have a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.”
Now: This might still happen, and no one would put it past George R.R. Martin.
You can find Aishwarya on Twitter at @prettyredboom.
Hodor!
Varys!
Edit: damn it!! Too late… 😛
The show is not the book. You can’t use show stuff to disprove book theories
Bran ate Jojen is true. The rest of these theories are bullshit.
Court,
Partly true. But it’s clear that Benioff and Weiss know the endgame for the major characters, they’ve talked about their conversations with Martin (in a vague way) before. Shireen’s death is one example. And that knowledge is going to affect how they write the show. The show and the books aren’t twins, but they are closely related.
Yes and no. Jon coming back in the show proves he’ll be back in the books. Hodor is “hold the door.” There are some big things we can know from the show that are true in the books.
Given that the show doesn’t even mention the precious/stupid valonqar, I don’t see how it’s proved or disproved anything.
I can’t decide my favorite theory, Varys being a mermaid or Hodor being Aegon Targaryen 🙂 .
Jojen paste could still happen in the books, imo, irrespective of the manner of show Jojen’s death.
Omg I really ain’t one for crackpot theories.All of these are absolutely bollocks appart from Bran eating Jojen that might have happened lol.But really my favourite one will always be the Tyrion is Dany’s time travelling child.Nothing can top that honestly
Hodor being AegonVI is a great theory. Hodor/Hold the door could be when Amory Lorch was banging down the door to kill Rhaenys and Aegon.
Hodor’s back story was “also kind of lame”!?!? That was in no way lame. I rank it as the 5th best episode of Thrones solely on the strength of that ending sequence.
My Favourite Crazy Theories (none of which I believe):
– Pycelle is a Lannister bastard.
– Stannis or Mance wrote the Pink Letter.
– Tywin knew about Joffrey’s poisoning.
– Lem Lemoncloak is actually Richard Lonmouth, Rhaegar’s squire.
– Bloodraven and/or the Children of the Forest are trying to destroy humanity.
I haven’t exactly believed in any of these ones. I have thought the J+A=T theory is an intriguing possibility. I can’t see Tywin letting him live if he truly knew, but when I first read the theory it was well written and very convincing.
Court,
Of course you can.
MoF,
The valonqar is 100%, without a doubt Jaime.
Only Jon will not become WW,and Bran will not eat any pasta can be told in the show.
Bran didnt visit the moment Jaime pushed him yet,Tyrion didnt get any special relationship with the dragons,Cersei’s killer theory never made it in the show .
I dont support any of the theories i just cant see how show answered them.
Theories that got answer are Jon parents, Cersei will outlive all her children e.t.c
Varys is a merman? That’s a new one (to me).
Tyrion is not a Targ. I do wonder about Cersei and Jaime though – but I throw in an extra crackpot twist that one twin is fathered by Aerys and the other by Tywin, with no way to know who’s Aerys’ bastard.
On the fence about the valonqar, but Jojenpaste seems plausible in the books.
Hodor’s backstory is so not lame.
Regarding Bran, it could go two ways. One, Bran could actually be fulfilling a closed time loop (like Hodor’s origin story, where his mind has to be crippled by Bran). Or two, it could be a Twilight Zone situation where Bran instigates endless cycles of reincarnation to fix the WW issue that can never be fixed, and he’s just fighting a losing battle with fate. What we’re seeing/reading now is just another cycle Bran has created.
Really? Lame is not the word I would describe Hodor’s backstory with.
His backstory is a huge education to Bran, who now knows how he can manipulate events. He was able to warg into Hodor BEFORE he became the Three Eyed Raven. Now he has had a bit of training, so it’s likely he will be able to warg into others. If he can put all the pieces together, he very well be able to affect future or past events.
So no, lame is not the description I would use.
It seems like if Bran was the most important character, Jon and Tyrion wouldn’t have triple the number of POV chapters that Bran does. But who knows.
Though granted, I think Arya has had more chapters than Bran as well, and Bran certainly seems more important than Arya at this juncture.
Never have been a big fan of these sorts of theories. They are rarely true or close to what fans guessed.
Never thought Bran pushed himself via Jaime out the window and I still don’t.
Never believed anyone other than Jaime to be the Valonqar.
Never believed that Tyrion is anything other than Tywin’s son. He does have an affinity with the dragons, but that is it for me unless proven otherwise.
I did think that Hodor meant something, by the time the show aired the rumor about “hold the door” sounded pretty plausible to me.
Never thought that Bran would eat Jojenpaste.
Hodor = Aegon? I don’t think so.
Varys a merman? *sigh* Not likely.
But I do think that the world as “they” know it, in the end will never be the same, but a new beginning will have to take place.
I am not writing this with a “better than you” feeling. I am just not nor have I ever been a big fan of crazy theories. They have to really make sense, like R+L=J sort of thing to buy into it. Sorry if the post seems condescending in any way.
MeeraReed,
Everything is ”lame” when compared to some crazy, convulated theories that are out there.
Mostly because that’s what those theories are in essence, they are meant to be over-convulated and ”cool” and overly complex.
Most of these theories exist mostly because some refuse to accept, that the ”obvious” and simpler answer is also the correct one.
JCDavis,
Agree completely.
Well said.
Some of these theories are just plain silly, but I sure hope you don’t stop believing in ASOIAF theories because the show made things differently.
The show does whatever it wants.
Yeah, try to see which theories make sense with book Dorne by using show Dorne’s abomination. Exercise in futility.
“Jon Snow will become a White Walker.”
This screams wishful thinking. Like when a lot of fans were convinced he was never going to abandon the NW lmao.
aiad,
Aegon will end up dead and Dorne will join Dany.
Hah. When Roose shows up on the Small Council of the Night’s King then you’ll all see the Bolt-On truth.
Piling on to the valonqar thing is unlikely all around since it was cut from the show. Cersei is so gonna burn.
Mihnea,
Nah I’m sure Arianne and Young Griff will end up in the throne with Doran as hand.Darkstar is Azor Ahai.Rickon will come riding a unicorn and become king until Robb’s unborn child comes along.Strong Belwas will save the world and Stannis will wake dragons from the earth.Jon Tyrion and Dany don’t even matter really I bet they won’t even be pov in the next books.Who needs them when you have Aero Hotah and Aeron Greyjoy lol
HotPinkLipstick,
In my opinion this is a wrong asumption.
We didn’t get the RW visions in Dany’s story in S2, neither did the prophecy were she sees the Dosh Khaleen kneel before her, nor the old lady’s prophecies to Arya in S3.
But yet all those happened. In my opinion, the fact that this part was cut, actually proves it to be true more then anything. They didn’t want to hint to this so soon. And used the prophecy to hint at the death of Cersei’s children who are secondary characters, at most, and to explain her fight with the Tyrrels and Margaery.
They did not want to hint at the death of Cersei, because she is a main character.
I have no doubt what so ever(should this be 1 word?), that Jaime is the Valonqar and will kill Cersei.
Jenny,
At the very beginning I thought you were serious…..
I don’t know if I should praise your sarcasm or feel sorry for the fandom, because something like made me read the comment twice…..
Flayed Potatoes,
Looking forward to getting more of the POV inside Jon’s head whenever book 6 comes out, but you can’t really fault him for leaving the NW regardless. Like he said, he did what he thought was right, and they murdered him for it.
Mihnea,
Well I have actually seen some people be serious about some of those things so yeah I don’t fault you haha
Jojen Paste! I still Belieeeeve…! (in the books anyway)
As for the others… just… no.
Also you forgot about Daario (Harpy/Euron), High Sparrow (Rhaegar/Benjen) and Mance (Rhaeger) identity theories! They are WAY more crackpot (stupider) than these are! 🙂
My favorite theory was always HS=HR. We saw how that turned out…..
“Ned and Ashara Dayne are Jon’s real parents” should be in that list… I know of a couple of youtubers who were adamant about this theory.
Oh, and I’m still a firm believer of “Jojen paste” in the books!
A Dornish Tyrell,
LOL I know exactly who you mean.
But this is also a good example for what I said earlier. Some create new theories and are adamant that they are right, simply because the alternative is too ”simple/obvious”.
I have a feeling they will be very disapointed when WOW comes(if) out.
A Man Grown,
I’m not faulting him. I fully support the decision.
I wholeheartedly agree!
Or Brandon and Ashara being Jon’s parents, Rhaegar and Lyanna being Dany’s parents, involving double baby swaps, fake deaths, false identities and whatnot 🙂 .
I wonder how will Preston Jacobs react when the books reveal r+l=j .
ghost of winterfell,
Some how he will blame it on the show…..
Oh yes! Or Meera and Jon being twins… 😀
One of the most outlandish theories I read was that Arthur Dayne and Lyanna Stark were Jon’s parents, because he was protecting her at the Tower of Joy… ?
there sure are a lot of little brothers (AKA Second Sons) running around Esso. Love all these crazy theories.
Mihnea,
He did say that Winds of Winter was the worst episode of GOT so far, lol.
A Dornish Tyrell,
The twin theory, believe it or not, still seems to be going strong 🙂 .
I personally hold to my own head-canons and also the theory of apocalypse.
Yet not by WW or the dead.
I think it’s been under our noses in every single title sequence and it’s even been seen and received a few different interpretations in one episode; the comet burning in the sky.
I think the comet isn’t a comet but inbound, and nothing is quite as bitter-sweet as a hard won peace all undone by a dinosaur style meteor strike.
Thus magic and all knowledge leaves the world and the land itself reforms.
On the subject of JS becoming a white walker………Hmmmmmmm. Lots of attention on the Children creating the WW and even a dedicated scene, used to later explain Benjens salvation through a slice of dragon-glass in the chest.
When all is said and done, what are we on now, the 999th commander of the Nights Watch…?
“You’re destined to fight their wars forever” – Alliser Thorne on the gallows.
One wonders at the 1000th commander of the nights watch…..Hey Jon? If there’s to be a last battle, don’t get hurt like Benjen, hey?
😉
ghost of winterfell,
The funny part is that back, before the show or in it’s early seasons, he was mocked even by some hardcore purists at westeros.com.
I think he was even banned for a while.
Now he is a standard banner for them…. which I find hilarious, because the same people who agree and praise him now, used to make fun of him, not so long ago.
Did you mean “growing strong”? 😉
(Ok, I’ll show myself out…)
ORLY? I haven’t actually seen Preston Jacobs actually post on w.org in a really long time, and even back in the day it was rarely. Certainly don’t think most people on worg believe his theories. I think of him more as a reddit/youtube guy.
The Volonquar one is interesting. No one knows, however, ‘cept George and D&D, whether “little” refers to size or age:
-Sandor is physically smaller than Gregor
-Tyrion is smaller and younger than Jaime
-Renly was younger than both Robert and Stannis – but they’re all dead now.
-Bran is little brother to Sansa and Arya and Jon
Batfink impersonator, Tyrion Lanister, has said repeatedly that the reason his brother killed the mad king was to save the people of King’s Landing. He harasses Deny about her father’s madness, and whenever she proposes a solution that involves fire, he brings up her father wanting to burn the city… In other words, Jaime is not a Kingslayer, but an altruist.
Tyrion is a pious little fuck; and, we will see if he’s so pious when he faces what his own sister did to the Sept. Should the altruistic Jaime punish Cersai as harshly as he punished Aerys? Should Tyrion punish her? We will see whether they’re altruistic, or hypocrites.
‘Cause you know, the justice we piously give to those we don’t love, is not the same justice we deal out to those we do. And, we know how people lie about their motives.
QueenofThrones,
He didn’t post much, but I clearly remember them dismissing his theories and making fun of him.
Oh they don’t believe in his theories, they just happen to share the same hatred for the show.
But I think you are right….. I might confuse westeros.com with R/ASOIAF.
Yikes. That sounds like a fantasy version of the sci-fi novel “Lucifer’s Hammer” by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
.
If the very last episode of the series is titled “The Fall”, maybe that’s what will happen – I hope not!
Twenty Good Chickens,
The comet thing appeals to my dark side. It would be – almost – completely unexpected. It would take a cosmic cataclysm to cause the sun to rise in the west and set in the east. But then, how would Dany survive it for her womb to quicken?
If I remember, the show only added the children prophecy, not the Valonquar.
Tyrion is not a Targaryean but will ride a dragon thanks to the dragonbinder horn. I don’t recall but does the Lannister family tree have any Targaryeans in their lineage?
The Bolt-on theory will always have a special place in my heart.
That Bran warging into Jaime one is really stupid. There is no indication in any of Jaime’s thoughts in his chapters that he doesn’t remember pushing Bran or wasn’t in control of his body.
I cannot comprehend the insistence on Jojenpaste. Yes, he’s eating a white paste of (I believe?) mashed up Weirwood seeds or something, and it is veined with red syrupy streaks dark as blood. What other substance is thus described in the books? Weirwood sap. Those red streaks are _SO_OBVIOUSLY_ Weirwood sap. He is already eating Weirwood paste in preparation for being inserted into a Weirwood tree to plug into the Weirwood network, yet somehow DRINKING JOJEN’S BLOOD makes more sense. *brain explodes*
Conversely, my favorite theory is that the White Walkers are not the evil they are assumed to be. We’ve seen in the show that they were men transformed though magic by the CotF to be their slave warrior army against the First Men.
This origin story lines up with the scifi trope of “playing god,” and what happens when that creation escapes its maker’s control. The narrative mother of this trope is Frankenstein, whose monster is neither monstrous nor evil. I am not suggesting the White Walkers are merely “misunderstood,” but–like Frankenstein’s creation–they might damn well desire vengeance, or they could simply be fighting for survival.
The 2003 iteration of Battlestar Galactica also took an interesting route with man’s creations, as the motivations of the Cylons are not at all simple or even unanimous. Another example is the Geth from the Mass Effect series, whose creators have cast them as genocidal villains while the machines were simply defending themselves from extermination.
The White Walkers may well be the evil everyone assumes they are, but I am relying on GRRM to subvert the boring “evil for the sake of evil” bullshit present in so many fantasy narratives. Yes, ice can entomb, but it can also preserve. Maybe they just want a sunnier clime. 🙂
Well…
Bran did drink blood…in the show. It was rabbit’s blood that was given to him by the show’s Benhands/Coldjen amalgam. Some people took that to be an “homage” to Jojenpaste…not saying that the theory is necessarily true, but in the chapter Jojen is conspicuously absent, and Bran keeps asking where Jojen is…and nobody answers him?
Gary’s being a merman is hilarious. My new favorite crackpot theory. ?
The Bran theory is really cool, had never heard it.
Before the season started, my prediction for Jon was that the Night King would some how arrive at Castle Black, touch him, and take him back with him and then we’d see the story from the perspective of the White Walkers. This would’ve been so much better than the predictable story line that resulted imo.
Oops. I was auto corrected on Varys. I put Gary’s instead of Varys. ?
Angela,
Hahaha…I was wondering if that was due to auto-correct, or if it was the name the ranters and ravers had come up with for Varys.
btw – I always thought the Bolt-on theory was just something people joked about, not something people actually believed.
The White Walkers aren’t undead.
The leader of the White Walkers is called the Night King, not the Night’s King. It’s not the same character. They just had to call him something, and cannibalized the Night’s King’s name.
The problem with Theory One is that you can’t warg into someone without their feeling it. Jaime has owned pushing Bran out the window as his own decision and justified it.
“The story behind Hodor’s limited speech, was interesting, sure, but a little lame too, considering it didn’t really have far-reaching ramifications for the story.”
… It means Bran, from the present, can alter the past. (Yeah, the ink is dry, etc. But this is a lot more than just “interesting”.)
LatrineDiggerBrian,
A White Walker POV would be pointless, considering that they don’t even seem to speak to each other. Besides, Jon’s story is about leading an army against the White Walkers, not becoming one.
Taking liberties with Joanna’s person during the undressing ritual does not mean they slept together. In fact, it’s clear they didn’t. They weren’t alone together.
JCDavis,
Perfectly said.
Daniellica,
I never understood it either. I interpret it as the Weirwoods have the “blood” of Planetos in them. Never believed it was Jojen.
Ha! I remember reading that book back when I was a teenager! Not exactly the same, but I’ve often thought that GRRM could subvert a high fantasy by having the end involve a b-movie type alien landing. 😉
Cleganebowl theory was also formally proven to be false
I’m surprised they didn’t mention the Blackfish = Leonard Cohen theory. Look at the two of them side by side.
MeeraReed,
I pretty much stopped reading the article at that point.
“The story behind Hodor’s limited speech, was interesting, sure, but a little lame too, considering it didn’t really have far-reaching ramifications for the story” is, by any measure, a stupid thing to say.
Just read the prologue of GoT and you’ll see they do in fact speak. Ser Waymar notes how they even seem to make fun of him.
I’m not a fan of Jojen-paste but GRRM said one character was killed too soon on the show so Jojen might have a different role in the books yet.
As maester Aemon realised in both books and show Valyrian is gender neutral when learning about Dany and her dragons, the valonqar can be female too and my personal wish it’s Arya who will kill Cersei.
Not in the last 100 years, at least.
Angie,
He says ”it’s like ice cracking”, that is speech as much as the WW screams when Sam stabbed him.
They don’t speak, and we will never have dialogue with them. They will not negotiate, they must be defeated in battle.
I’m not even going into the valonqar, in my opinion it is beyond a doubt and question Jaime.
Young Dragon,
Don’t bother with him. He is the perfect example as to what I described earlier.
Someone who creates convulated, overly-complex, and ”cool” theories simply because he refuses to admit the ”simpler” and more ”obvious” solution, is also the real one.
He doesn’t care about what makes sense in the story or not. And dissmises the most likely scenario, that was hinted at, that was build upon, simply because it is to ”obvious” for him
My theory – Bran can change past and if humans fail the battle with undead he’ll back to this scene from episode 5 and tell Children not to create white walkers. Future will be different but humans survive sweet-and-bitter end!
Actually, it’s not clear at all.
The World of Ice and Fire, a “canonical” book since it was approved and partly written by George, make clear that the “Jaime and Cersei are really the Mad King’s children” theory was actually bunk.
However, it did nothing but throw shade into the whole Joanna-Tywin-Mad King situation re: Tyrion.
Young Dragon,
Jon’s story made no such promises. And they could’ve had the White Walkers talk if they so choose.
Mihnea,
Jon being the hero that stops the White Walkers was never alluded to in the show until this season. Also, I believe in the books, it was never spelled out that Jon was the “Prince that was promised”. You’re just projecting what you want to happen because boring Jon is your favorite character or whatever.
Maybe you really like it when stories go in the exact direction they’re promising and are predictable, but others like being surprised and having stories take them in directions they never could’ve imagined. That was what got me hooked on the show for the first 5 seasons. That’s why season 6 was disappointing to me.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
This is simply not true. But nice try to insult me based on whatever I like a character or not….
Besides Ned’s death, every single event was build upon, hinted and in the end it reached that destination. In the books it is even more ”obvious”, I knew the RW will have since book 2, for example. And no other event, besides Neds death suprised me in the slightest.
Yes I do. I like when stories deliver on what they build and don’t throw things out of nowhere (LSH) these are what people call ”deus ex machina” and are hated/disliked by most people. This is exactly why during the off-season I said anyone who thinks Mel won’t bring Jon back is simply lying to themselves.
And it is the same with the WW, they have been build from S1 EP1 as the ”real enemy”
Jon’s entire story is about uniting people to fight them. There will be no negotiating with them, no dialogue, no talks.
And I will say, as I said in the off-season about Mel reviving Jon, if anyone thinks, the WW threat/war will end with anything besides a huge fight, at WF, at the Wall, the location doesn’t matter, where everyone who is left, Jon/Dany, unite to defeat the WW, is simply lying to themselves again.
This story, is no where near as ”shocking” and full of ”twists” as the hardcore fandom makes it out to be. Besides 2-3 things, I am beyond certain in how the story will go.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
I didn’t say they made any promises. I only meant that Jon’s story followed a logical path that’s been built from the previous seasons. You’re version is less predictable, but that’s not what good storytelling is. Good storytelling requires logic and sense, not shock.
Wow, there are more crackpot theories out there than I realized. I had only heard a few of them….Most I have never believed, but the two I have held faith in is the Valonqar and R+L=J.
I could see the end game being the total destruction of Westeros. That would certainly fit with George’s “bittersweet” ending.
WallyFrench,
They do now,,,, Jamie and Cersei Waters
I think Tyrion is the only true heir to Tywin’s Casterly Rock wealth.
Season 4 has multiple scenes that give strength to that theory. From the very 1st scene with Jamie getting the new sword. Jamie killed his Father the Mad King and Tyrion killed his father Tywin.
Mihnea,
Oh please don’t complain about me insulting you. That’s barely an insult. You’re the one who went out of their way to tell another poster to completely ignore me in the most condescending way.
I haven’t read the books, but you seem to be in the minority of people who think they were extremely predictable. Did you go and look up what happened in the books before reading them like you do on the show? If so, it’s no wonder you weren’t surprised by much.
And my problems with season 6 were far more than lack of twists or shocking moments. The main problem is was that it was checklist story telling. Many character motivations didn’t make sense because they were forcing the issue because story needs to get from point A to B (Jon and Sansa feud perfect example). They failed to give Tyrion a meaningful arc in Mereen when there was a perfect opportunity to do so, instead we got a bunch of disparate scenes that simply filled time until Dany came back to anti-climactically save the day. Arya’s conclusion to the House of B & W was extremely simplistic and by the numbers compared to the fascinating story that had been built up to that point.
But you’re so desperate for certain things to happen in the story, like Dany arriving in Westeros. Who cares? I don’t really care if she arrives in Westeros or stays in Mereen for the final 2 seasons, as long as there is interesting story telling. For some of you guys watching the show is like playing a video game with all the cheat codes. I like to be wowed. I like there to be things like Jaime and Brienne, relationships I never saw coming or never could’ve predicted, but in the end they still made sense.
Mihnea,
“WEISS: I don’t think of the Night King as a villain as much as, Death. He is not like Joffrey, or Ramses. He’s not really human anymore. To me, evil comes when you have a choice between that and good, and you choose the wrong way. The Night King doesn’t have a choice; he was created that way, and that’s what he is. In some ways, he’s just death, coming for everyone in the story, coming for all of us. In some ways, it’s appropriate he doesn’t speak. What’s death going to say? Anything would diminish him. He’s just a force of destruction. I don’t think we’ve ever been tempted to write dialogue for the Night King. Anything he said would be anticlimactic”
This confirms what they have established for seasons now they don’t need a pov.I wish this would put an end to the debate but I know it won’t lol
Young Dragon,
I disagree that it’s “logical”. This story has gone against “logical” conventions plenty of times and the story has still made perfect sense. There are ways they could make it work within the context of the story easily. You just need a little imagination.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Absolutly not.
That is the entire point of that story, they never wanted suspanse there, it was meant to be a slaughter and complete victory for Dany.
Arya’s story is and ended just as I have been saying since 2006 and. She will fail to be ”no one” and run away, just replace the Waif with a nameless Faceless man.
And it proved to me that Braavos IS purely filler, masked as a training arc, as much of AFFC/ADWD is. And I am beyond glad they did not try and over-complicate things for complications sake.
I and many others do care. Meereen is pure filler and a speed bump, because Westeros isn’t ready for Dany yet. That is it.
From Book 1 and EP1, Dany has been build to reach Westeros. To now not do this, because it is too ”predictable” is outright stupidity. You hint at something, you build on it and in the end you deliver it.
Dany reaching Westeros is the biggest examples, for her not to reach westeros would be beyond bad writing and storytelling.
Yeah, some comments here remind me why I don’t come back as often anymore!!
OT: But, wanted to share that CTV (Canada) is airing season 1 of GOT Starting Monday, 10 nights in a row uncut! This is for viewers who don’t have HBO, and its great because its part of the BASIC cable package, which to me means that GOT is going to gain a whole bunch of new fans 🙂 🙂
Jenny,
I have been saying since even before AFFC that there will be no talking, negotiating or armistice with the WW.
There will be a huge battle, where I personally think Dany and her dragons will die, with Jon I have no idea.
Anyone thinking otherwise is in my opinion simply lying to themselves and refuse to admit this is the truth simply because to the it ”feels to predictable”.
It is good to have confirmation, and seeing after 10+ years, that I was right.
Dee Stark,
I have some free time and I’m bored at work otherwise I would have ignored most comments as well.
Speaking of that, I think you are right, there are better things I can waste my time on, then this.
EDIT: God I wish GOT was on cable…It would crush everything else.
Mihnea,
I agree! HAHA
Yeah Omg if it was in cable I wonder what the numbers would be
Mihnea,
Back in 2011, if you and YoungDragon hadn’t read the books and weren’t even aware there were books, and were watching the show and someone told you they thought Ned was going to die, I’m sure your response would’ve been “no Ned is the hero he can’t die” or if someone told you Jaime would turn into a more sympathetic character and get a redemption arc you probably would’ve been “no Jaime is the baddie that’s not what the story is promising he’ll get his comeuppance”. Point is you guys are incapable of seeing it turning out any other way than what’s “promised”. It seems like D & D can’t see it any other way at this point either which sucks.
And sorry if I traumatized you and Dee by having a differing opinion, but you’re the one who drew me into this by taking a shot at me without even directly replying to me.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
People like different ways of storytelling, doesn’t mean they want ”cheat codes” or that they are idiots who want to be spoon fed..
I believe a good story DOES check point A and point B…etc. I think a good story focuses on few main characters and the world around exists only to serve them, I do not like to much world building. I do not want backstory and information on the FM I do not care about Meereen and it’s people.
I care if Arya can become a cold blooded assassin and what Dany thinks/ wants to do with those people.
I believe a good story, hints at things, then builds on them and in the end it delivers on this things.
I believe random new things, that were not hinted at and the story going in a complete new direction just because ”this isn’t predictable” is bad storytelling and this are ”cheat codes”, were your story is blocked and you throw a curveball out of no where, without warning…etc.
So I say, you shouldn’t look on others down, or think their opinion is inferior, because they like different stories and different ways to tell those stories.
(this is my last comment on the subject, because it became, as it always does in the end, a debate on ”what stories do we like”’ and debating this is as pointless as trying to debate what genre of music you like. In the end it is personal.)
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Ned dying did suprise me. I have said as much. But I never believed Ned was ”the” hero. And after reading book 2, I put this event in the ”cliche” category. The father figure dying to allow his ”sons/daughters” to grow…etc. By the middle of that book it became obvious that Robb won’t be one of those.
Jaime’s redemption arc? not at all. I knew he would have a redemption arc since the end of book 2, so season 2.
And yes, I am capable of seeing things go another way then ”what was promised”, but I simply don’t want it, because I do not enjoy that type of storytelling.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
I forgive you for traumatizing me
And I don’t give two shits if you have a different opinion. You’re just a broken record and I don’t miss it hence my comment 😉
This has been bothering me, hard.
Did anyone, and I mean ANYONE, think any of the theories in this article were gospel? GAH. I started this article thinking it was going to address some of the hardcore theories, like Cleganebowl, LSH’s importance, Jon warging into Ghost before he died, and then having solid show evidence disproving those theories.
Instead, this is a puff piece disproving a bunch of ridiculous theories no one ever believed with coupled with an annoying clickbait title.
And FUCK it’s too early in the morning to drink.
HotPinkLipstick,
It’s never too early to drink
I agree with you though… I haven’t read the books but I’ve heard of some theories and none of the ones I’ve heard were included in this post!
Mihnea,
Not to butt in but also things change between act 1 and act 3.In act one you can put twist and turns because you are laying the story out you can make Ned a faux protagonist you can give Jaime a redemption arc and a relationship with Brienne you can even kill Robb and Catelyn but things are different in act 3.You have these protagonsits in whom you have invested in six seasons/books you need to deliever on what you laid out.Of course there can be twists and turns in the third act and I’m sure there will be but considering we have had so many years to figure it out it’s more predictable.Also it’s the nature of this story that by the end of it would become more straightforward.You can’t throw character development out of the window just so you can have a crackpot theory.It seems cheap to me.
Jenny,
Ah Jenny, I fully agree on this
The argument of the season sucked because of predictability is just wrong. I mean these things have been expected to happen to the main characters for years especially since we have over analyzed everythung.. But season 6 was the time for pay offs… For Jon, Dany, Cersei, Arya etc. I have predicted this would happen to cersei since day 1. Didn’t see anyone cry about her arc…
People just don’t like what happened in certiain arcs and just argue that it is predictable so it sucks.
Your act III argument is perfect, what I have tried to say multiple times.
Second to last chapter: titled “Jon” ends with a battle vs the White Walkers in which he is killed and the WW slowly descend through Westeros destroying everything in their path and all hope is lost cause it is fully believed Jon was The Prince That Was Promised at that point.
Final chapter: titled “The Promised Prince” from the perspective of Rhaegar Targaryen in the events of him leaving Lyanna at the Tower of Joy and ending with his demise at the Trident.
End of story.
Jenny,
Oh ! Well, that’s a bit of a shame… The White Walkers are just going to be “agents of destruction”, like a force of nature.
They’re just the exact counterpoint to dragons, then. It seems to leave aside the fact that they appear to have a language, a relatively complex and hierarchical social structure and planning abilities (more obvious in the books, but still quite visible on the show). But hey ! If D&D can make it interesting all the same, that’s good enough for me ^^
Dee Stark,
It’s too early to drink when I have to work to bring home the bacon. Fuck it all.
But yeah, remember all those theories about Stannis being the One True King? That something S6 shot down hard, but not included. The Pink Letter being fake, not included. Jon a deserter from the NW, not included. All the non-R+L=J theories of Jon’s parentage, not included. Great Northern Conspiracy, Balon was killed by a Faceless Man, Euron is Daario who is the Harpy, Howland Reed is the High Sparrow, all of those theories were more widespread and more plausible.
HotPinkLipstick,
Yup fully agree !!!!
Dee Stark,
Thanks Dee this argument has been my bone to pick for quite sometime now lol
ACME,
The way I took it is they are agents of destruction but in a fantasy setting.So you can’t have a hurricane but you have ice zombies who turn babies and know the legend of the four horsemen of the apocalypse lol.Basically it’s a commentary on nuclear weapons gone wrong and the danger they pose to us.Also we can take this as a warning regarding the dragons.They could be very dangerous too.I guess the moral would be you can’t have something that powerful in the world and magic needs to cancel itself out.Martin and D&D could have taken it into another maybe more complicated direction but this one makes enough sense to me and keeps within the spirit of the story
Jenny,
Jenny,
The issue with that is GRRM is such a “gardener” when he writes that it sometimes feels as if logical storytelling gets Bran-ed out a window. It’s also one of the reasons I think GRRM is struggling to finish Winds (and Spring). He enjoys the gardening, the planting of seeds and theories, but when it comes down to weeding it down and finishing it, the same enthusiasm just isn’t there.
So you’re right. Act 1 (and even some of Act 2) are introduction, but when it comes to Act 3, to make sense, it needs to flow from the beginning.
Mihnea,
Fine. You like more linear type stories and there is nothing wrong with that, but you can find these types of stories all over other TV and movies. GoT was special to me because it was able to take me to places that I never could’ve predicted, but yet when it did it all made perfect sense within the context of the story and characters. That’s what great writing is to me. The ability to take the audience in a direction they never could’ve imagined, but yet in the end it all still adds up with respect to what’s been established to that point.
HotPinkLipstick,
Oh yeah you are right I agree with this.I think he knows where he wants to end up but can’t seem to find a way to get there and is taking too many detours.
Ha ha ha ! ^^
I believe you are absolutely right. It makes enough sense to work out and be satisfying. I would have liked a tad more complexity but again, as long as it works, I don’t care.
As for the White Walkers being a statement about the dragons, I concur wholeheartedly. The dragons are, for the moment, seen as agents of salvation (they helped free the slaves) while the White Walkers are perceived much more negatively. However, they are two sides of a same coin and equally dangerous to human life.
Magic must die. Bittersweet indeed.
Jenny,
Well said. Like I often said: “The show has entered the endgame. The twists are done, the knots have to be untangled and loose ends tied up.”
My thoughts were similar to those of LatrineDiggerBrian’s a couple years ago. I believed that the plot must include twists on every step for the sake of being complicated. But thank God, I realized that the plot twists are not the main value of the story.
When Stannis’s death was announced in book 5 (which I read in 2012), I was sure that he has to be alive because otherwise, it would be too “simple”. But when it actually happen on TV, it all made sense to me. Another example is the Valonqar theory. While I hoped it to be Jaime, I wasn’t really sure about it because it seemed “too predictable”. But when TV series ommitted the valonqar part, Jaime being the Valonqar is again believable to me. We still have to wait for season 7.
During season 5 and my time on Watchers on the Wall (which I joined in september 2015), I realized that I read ASOIAF only for the plot twists and I watched the shows like TWD only to see who will die next, instead of following the characters themselves. To think about it, that’s actually pretty weird considering that my favorite TV series is LOST, which I watched in 2011 before season 1 of GoT was over, and that’s because of its characters and emotional moments.
I can say, that season 6 was predictable but the predictability did not affect my enjoyment in any negative way. Not long ago, a happy reunion was mission impossible for GoT. While I hoped for JOn/Sansa reunion, I was sure that if it ever happened, it won’t be an emotional hug but way more tense (with LF on her side). Then “Book of a Stranger” happened and I realized, that I was wrong. That scene became one of my favorite ones not only from GoT but from many TV series I watched. I can’t say how many times did I rewatch just that part. But to think about, their reunion was pretty much predictable and because of overanalyzing stuff, I believed that Sansa will not reach CB and expected that LF will cross her path.
Another example is Cersei pulling Maegor I/Aerys II and burning the Sept of Baelor. While I expected it to happen, the moments before it were the ones that made the scene so great. It was so obvious that something bad will happen and the final moments were so emotional to watch, accompanied by brilliant soundtrack.
While I still don’t want “happily ever after” ending (such as Jon and Daenerys marry and rule SK together with Tyrion as their Hand), I want the final moments to be emotional (especially on Daenerys part – I’m not a fan of her “badass” mode) and the story firmly resolved with casualities on both sides, a “bittersweet” ending like GRRM promised.
BTW, who dares to call Hodor’s death and reveal “lame”?!
Aside from Melisandre talking to Arya about deaths, there is no maid and serpent wording either in show; maybe the maid doesn’t kill a savage giant in a castle built of snow or it was a doll after all :>(
GrailKing,
There was no vision of the RW in S2 yet it happened anyway. There was no prophecy about Balon’s death, yet he died anyway.
We should not think, this events won’t happen just because the prophecies were cut. Prophecies of these kind don’t work well on TV.
Like with the valonqar, if anything, their omission should tel us that they are true, and they simply didn’t want to hint at these event so early.
ACME,
My idea of ”bittersweet” ending was always this.
Dany and her dragons will die in the end, defeating the WW.
Her dragons brought back the magic, and they were reborn just when the WW returned.
They must both die to… balance the world again, in a way.
This was something I was speculating since even before AFFC, as for Jon? I have no idea here… My bets are on him surviving though but I would not be suprised if he dies.
I have to say I absolutely love the theory that Cersei and Jaime are actually Aerys’ children… I don’t get into arguments on whether it might be true or not, I simply like the idea of it.
Just the idea of Robert hating and trying to kill all Targaryens while marrying one and raising three young Targs under his roof… and the irony of Joffrey actually kind-of being the rightful heir to the throne by Targ standards… And Tywin’s only true child being the one he didn’t want. PLUS the beautiful poetic tragedy of Jaime being ordered to kill his father and … killing his father, Aerys. Kinslayer and Kingslayer. Tyrion and Jaime both killing their fathers. Cersei’s obsession with fire and wildfire – being compared to Aerys a bunch of times. Joffrey being compared to the Mad King. “Each time a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin” – with the twins representing both sides of the coin, one mad, one sane. And of course desperately wanting to be with each other and get married and rule together, but not being able to because “we’re not Targaryens” … but actually being Targaryens!
I’m getting carried away but I just love it so much. 😉
Lord Parramandas,
Oh I’m glad to hear your input.I’m the kind of person who doesn’t care much about twists and shocks and I’m more invested in characters and their journey and when something that I predicted happens I don’t go that’s lame but okay great that makes sense.I guess as you said people look for different things in their fiction.To me Stannis dying wasn’t a surprise at all.He was a secondary character who had a great arc but that’s it.Shireen is such a doomed character in the books so I always thought that it could culminate in her burning.There is enough forshadowing.I didn’t dwell on it because really who wants to think about a little girl burning but it had been on the back of my mind for a long time.That Stannis is the one burning her is straight out of a Greek tragedy and brings his arc to completion.
Regarding Sansa and Jon reuniting I was confident it would happen but still had a bit of insecurity because of the nature of the show and the many near misses but things is we were in season six and if you don’t deliver at some point the audience will eat itself out.And you are right that kind of emotion is exactly why I watch the tv show.
Mihnea,
I was actually confused about this, did the WWs and dragons return around the same time? We were introduced to the WWs in the prologue itself, but when did they actually come back? I ask this because Mance said he had been uniting the Wildlings for many years and his shtick for uniting them and becoming king was the WWs threat. If they only returned at the beginning of the series, Mance had already been made king before that? Besides, the fact that Craster does not have a single son alive seems to imply that he has been carrying on his sacrifices for quite some time. So I had concluded that the WWs have been around, beyond the Wall, for some years before the story started.
That’s why I said maybe :>)
ghost of winterfell,
Yeah, but they weren’t really attacking in force. Taking a baby from Craster, then a lonely men/women here and there. If they would have been active and killing left and right, it wouldn’t have taken Mance 20 years to unite the wildlings.
A better phrase might have been ”when they started moving in force”
Jenny,
Sorry to intervene but I love what you just said about Stannis burning his daughter being straight out of a Greek Tragedy. It reminded me of Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter Iphigenia before going to Troy to appease the gods (this part wasn’t in the movie ‘Troy’ and I was extremely disappointed since my name is Iphigenia and I would love to see my namesake but whatever xD). Two fathers, two kings, killing their daughters for the sake of a “greater” cause. I wonder if George R. R. Martin was inspired by this.
Rhaenys Stark,
Exactly! This is why I never understood all the fuss about the burning of Shireen back in season 5… People, know your Classics!! 😀
Rhaenys Stark,
that’s your name?
lovely….
where are you from?
Mihnea,
Okay. I wonder if there was anything specific that first triggered the return of the WWs (whenever it exactly was), after 8000 years. Maybe some action by Bloodraven or the CotF, or it’s completely random/ unexplained.
Dee Stark,
Haha thank you. It is my name, yes. I’m from Greece 😀
ghost of winterfell,
Well, what brought the dragons back? What made Iliryio find them and give them to Dany….etc.
Honestly here I am going with fate and destiny….etc.
Rhaenys Stark,
Oh yeah that is who I was thinking of.I don’t know George’s mind but it seems a clear inspiration to me.I’m even more confident that D&D had that in mind when they wrote the scenes.I also love that they turned it on its head and made the sacrifice completely useless at least for Stannis.Maybe David Benioff regrets not including that in the movie too but I guess they wanted to make a lighter movie lol.Great name btw.
Jenny,
Haha thank you. Well it’s kind of an unusual name here and it’s a rather weird choice to name your child after a sacrificed one but it makes sense etymologically (in Greek it means ‘of strong, powerful birth’). I didn’t know David Benioff was the movie’s screenwriter! A good movie but with many historical inaccuracies. Anyway, I’ve gone completely off topic, let’s get back to GoT xD
I never thought of the possibility of The Hound being the valonqar. Interesting. Probably still going to be Jaime though lol
I don’t know if there is a tie between. There could be but I’ve never thought that the Others were gone or dormant/hibernating. I’ve seen people make the comment that the comet awakened them as well. They haven’t been seen South of the Wall but they had been by those North. For instance, Craster was sacrificing his sons to them for years. I think they’ve always been there just not as aggressive until the recent activities. We still haven’t seen them approach the Wall though. If they’re not able to break the magic within the wall would they ever?
Actually, if you bother to do the research, the theories that were mentioned above have been around the book fandom for years; some of them are older than Facebook and Twitter!
The one that I find the most credible is one that is actually not there and it’s almost twenty years old: Tyrion Targaryen.
There’s actually a lot of textual support for this one in the novels if one bothers to look…and the scene of Tyrion and the Dragons in the show did nothing but stroke the fires of those who find it credible…
As far as Jojen Paste, believers would point out to the spooky ambiance of the scene where he eats the concoction in the books, the fact that Jojen is conspicuously absent, and the fact that when Bran straight up asks where Jojen is, he’s met with silence…
I find nothing the show did disproves it? After all, Jojen in the show is dead, there’s a bunch of skeletons and human bones around the inside of the Cave (why?), and Bran actually drank blood in the show…(albeit, it was rabbit’s blood, but some took that as a “homage” to the concept.)
I basically agree with this: either Danny or Jon or both will die, and that’s what the “bittersweet” thing is about.
For all I know Tyrion may end up in the Iron Throne…or maybe no one? Maybe Westeros just ends up split into the Seven original regions…
ghost of winterfell,
Well, in season 1 I believe, Osha said they were never actually dead, just “sleeping beneath the ice,” or something along those lines. Magic was probably involved and perhaps it had an expiration date or some other form of magic counteracted it.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
No, the storylines for each character has always followed a distinct and logical path. Please point out an illogical storyline that actually worked. Addressing your other point, I knew Ned was destined to die as soon as he was arrested. And I still don’t find Jaime to be a sympathetic character. He pushed a child out of a window.
HotPinkLipstick,
Yeah, CleganeBowl was the #1 thing that came to mind when I saw the title, and it isn’t even directly mentioned. You can count me as someone who believed CleganeBowl was “canon,” because it hadn’t really occurred to me that The Hound’s survival might be for some completely different purpose.
And I guess he could theoretically still fight his zombie brother later. The logistics make it doubtful though.
The title and list format is definitely the kind of clickbait I would’ve expected to see on the “original site” and not here.
Uncut on CTV? Wow!
As for theories…I do think Tyrion or Cersei/Jamie being half Targ is still likely.
Cases could be made for both.
I wonder if the characters will learn these truths or if it’s just the audience through Bran that learns.
I hope you don’t get discouraged from participating. I appreciate your enthusiastic Unsullied perspective!
What about:
?
I know this post is about disproven theories…but still!
Lord Parramandas,
Please…my criticism of season 6 is far far more nuanced than just “there were no twists and shocks”. For instance, did you buy the Jon and Sansa feud? Be honest. Did you think Tyrion got a great arc in Mereen? I mean here is a guy who is still struggling with murdering the love of his life, yet nary a mention of those struggles. All of his scenes were just pointless filler until Dany came back. No purpose.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
That was his arc last year.
Ginevra,
You sure can…where is Young Griff?
Aww come on the Valonqar is BLATANTLY Arya Stark. I mean seriously, Jaime…?
I believe it more likely that Tyrion is a Targ while Jaime and Cersei are not.
There are parallelisms between John and Dany – they all killed their mothers at birth.
Tyrion is described as having a tail and one of his eyes is black. In the book there are a few Targ’s whose eyes are so dark purple that they are describer as black.
Also, on the show, Tywinn continually states that he can not confirm that he is his son.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
If anything bothers you about my opinion, check out my reviews in book readers recap. Everything is there. I don’t want to start another pointless discussion with you but I remember that you outright HATED Battle of the Bastards just because you found it predictable and that clearly indicates that you value twists above the scenes’ quality and performance. You yourself stated that only one episode was great, two were just OK and you hated the rest of them. I don’t want to be offensive, but you were very much a downer on this site and definitely not a fan of GoT anymore.
Mihnea,
Yeah it was part of it but they should’ve kept harping on it this year too. I never got the feeling that Tyrion had fully come to terms with it. It would’ve been perfect to see him still struggling with those demons as he overcame obstacles as ruler of Mereen. A Shae dream sequence would’ve been perfect. I also felt that he and the gang should’ve overcome their problems in Mereen without Dany saving their asses.
Lord Parramandas,
I didn’t like the story in the North. I didn’t buy the Jon and Sansa feud. And while I thought Battle of the Bastards was awesome technically, I thought it was very pedestrian from a story telling point of view. And actually, I liked 4 episodes from the season and thought the premiere was OK. Didn’t like the rest. I guess that makes me not a GoT fan though because I don’t share the exact same opinion as you? Whatever.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
A true fan would never “hate” an episode. That’s my opinion.
Lord Parramandas,
Alright, well obviously you’re entitled to that opinion. Could not disagree with it more, that sounds more like a cult than fandom.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
“A fan is a person, who is enthusiastically devoted to something or somebody.” The ones who liked watching LOST but hated its final season and resolution, are not fans of LOST anymore. The ones who enjoyed watching TWD but stopped watching after a couple seasons because of show becoming repeatable, are not fans of TWD anymore. And those who enjoyed watching GoT but hated the later seasons because of their predictability, are not fans of GoT anymore (in my opinion).
And before you proclaim me as show apologist, if you ever bothered to check my GoT ranklist, you would notice that my ratings span from 7 to 10. You know what that means? That means I also disliked some things in the episodes but unlike you, I did not spent my time on Watchers on the Wall ranting about the stuff I disliked, but focused on things I liked because that brings positivity on a site. I’ve never seen anyone being bashed because of positivity here but I can’t say the same for negativity. I’m a fan and I watch GoT for entertainment, not to get frustrated by it.
There. My final post for today. It’s nearly 1 AM here.
I have wondered since the first book if Mopatis and especially Varys are actually human. I don’t know what kind of non-human or non-Planetosi they might be. Physically, they only resemble humans, and conceal their bodies under clothing. The claim of eunuch, the claim of marriage and of youthful form as shown in the statue, and the gigantic eating can conceal their real form.
They are actively manipulating humanity in a big way, more so than any other characters who are actually human. They seem to get around Planetos quickly. Their relationship to Valyrians, red religionists, WWs, and any other mystical beings is not stated but one wonders. I look forward to a non-human reveal in the books.
Auto correct.
Bolt-on theory is very real to some people.
Leonard Nimoy and Alan Rickman also resembled Leonard Cohen. That guy gets around.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but hasn’t it been said that “Valonqar” could potentially be gender-neutral, as it’s not firmly established as being a masculine word in High Valyrian? I have to say though, I am rooting for Jaime to be the one to take Cersei down.
Also, I agree with many others…not one single part of the Hodor reveal felt “lame” to me. Not only was the reveal essential for Bran to fully grasp the extent of his powerful abilities, and their cause and effect, but without Hodor and his sacrifice, Bran and Meera would’ve been killed alongside everyone else in the cave.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Tyrion being depressed for 15 chapters was one of the biggest complaints in ADWD, if not the biggest. I think they took this complaint from the fandom itself.
I think Tyrion was out of his depression last season quite well and he is clearly still affected, but not in a huge way.
This is no different then what they did with Jon and Ygritte, he was over it by the end of S4 and it was brought up again only when it was absolutely needed, like when Mel tried to seduce him, otherwise Jon never mentioned her again.
I have full confidence Tyrion will need to confront his actions again, but only when it becomes absolutely necessary, I think when he will meet Jaime again.
And I disagree completely, Dany should have been the one to end the siege and I was extremely pleased by how they did it. Tyrion also helped, quite a lot actually.
Lord Parramandas,
Completely agree.
I am one of those who stopped watching TWD after S4.
Mihnea,
If you want to know, TWD is my third favorite series. For me, its low point was season 3 and season 4 was actually an improvement because it focused more on the characters themselves.
Lord Parramandas,
Didn’t really stop because I disliked it, all though the quality did drop a bit.
But when S5 started I just didn’t had any motivation to start watching it. I kept delaying it… ”I’ll watch 2 episodes next week”…etc.
I always said I should give it another go, but I can’t really find the free time and when I do I always end up doing something else.
But thanks for telling me, it did motivate me a bit to pick it up again!
Mihnea,
Oh, I know that feeling. After I finshed watching LOST in 2011, I decided to watch The X-Files (201 episodes and one movie ). I finished watching season 1, but during season 2 (which was actually an improvement over season 1) my hard drive crashed and I lost most of the files. Still, I managed to finish season 2 but kept delaying season 3 until so much time passed, that I figured that I need to start from the beginning. After a couple of unsuccesful attempts to start (re)watching the series, I was finally able to start watching it in Summer 2015, 4 years after my original watch. I managed to get through seasons 1 and 2 and entered season 3 and to my surprise, the seasons got better and better. I’ve been watching it for about a year and I just finished watching season 8 yesterday, entering its final season now.
As for TWD, it is a show with its ups and downs. There are some incredible episodes and there are some filler episodes. The storyline does get repetitive a bit but the show is based on comics that are nowhere near end. The show loosely follows the same story but with its own twists, such as some characters dying earlier and the others later, and including some additional storylines for character development. But the biggest difference is, that TV show treats main characters more equally as opposed to the comics which are mostly about Rick and Carl.
Mihnea,
Yeah I agree you should pick it up again! GoT is a million times better, of course, but I binge-watched S1-5 of TWD last year and watched S6 along with everyone else and I can say that is a fairly good show, with many great episodes and adequate character development. It has also many bad episodes, repetitive plots and pointless filler, but I think S6 was my favourite along with S2. Some things in S6 were amazing and some made me hate the show for a while and blah blah but I’m mildly excited for S7. I suggest you start watching again, maybe it will make the wait for GoT more sufferable xD Vikings is good too.
The “up and downs” for TWD are such big jumps and are represented fairly well by the episode ratings on Rotten Tomatoes. On there GoT episodes are nearly always high 80’s to 100, with a single low exception of 58% for “Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken.” That episode garnered poor reviews mostly because of that one scene. TWD on the other hand has routinely jumped around on the scale throughout the series run. This past season had 35, 44, and 52 mixed in with high 90’s. That’s really the feeling I have when I watch it. I don’t know that I’ve watched an entire series before that has gone back and forth from “okay” to “brain-dead boring” for me so many times. It’s repetitive storyline has really worn me out as well. I’ve been calling it cyclical; find a safe place, end up fighting other living group, undead come, things go to hell… find a safe place, end up fighting other living group… repeat, repeat.
This post is just silly filler. Garbage!
I’ve never said that here before….so please take it to heart Sue etc.
Clob,
That’s the way comics are written. But if I SPOIL! a plot a bit, Alexandria will not suffer the same fate, at least not for a very long time. In the comics, they have been living there since issue 70 to present (issue 157) – more than half of the story. The current story in the comics has moved past “surviving in this world” and focused on “living in this world” and the TV series has entered this phase as well (currently adapting infamous issue 100)
Rhaenys Stark,
I binge-watched (one episode a day) first, second and first half of third season and I think TWD is more fun to binge-watch. Like you and Clob said, the episodes are not always strong on their own but overall, the story is still entertaining for me and with season 4, I started to focus more on the characters themselves and their progression. The only part that I don’t agree with you is “GoT is a million times better” because TWD is my third favorite show and GoT my second one.
Ginevra,
I sorta wish that D&D wouldn’t say “George told us that” when they have a reveal from the books that is in the show. I know they don’t want to take credit, but it would help keep the readers in suspense.
Tootie,
Have you been to WIC? This is master class-level insight compared to their “theorycrafting” posts.
Lord Parramandas,
You can label me whatever you want. Just ignore my posts if they’re too negative for you. It’s amazing, on the other site they have a “Rant and Rave without Repercussions” thread where they can bitch about the show without anyone disagreeing. Do you really want the same thing here? C’mon, you’ll survive a few dissenting opinions.
Mihnea,
Even a lot of people who like season 6 agree that Tyrion got the shaft. The whole plot line in Mereen was just aimless filler and there was zero growth for any of the characters involved. Case and point: the scene where Tyrion freed the dragons. This ended up having no purpose. Why did Tyrion risk his life to unchain the dragons just to leave them holed up in the catacombs? It made no difference anyway because Dany could have freed them herself when she got back, or with just Drogon she probably didn’t need them. Obviously they want to establish that Tyrion has a rapport with the dragons for when he eventually rides one (I guess), but like much else in the season, they just kind of hammered it in there because it needed to happen.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
My final response to you: My original post had nothing to do with you. I only mentioned that a couple years ago I was all about twists and complications, instead of following the characters themselves. It was you who started the”season 6 s*cked” debate. When you get bashed for constant negativity, you always respond the same: “….immature children…” or “…it bothers you because my opinion is not exactly the same…” With these expectations of yours, I can only say: “Brace yourself for disappointment.” I only hope you will somedays realize that you are not a fan anymore.
There. No more responses from me.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
It’s a shame you come over as so condescending in your posts. I’m all for everyone having their own opinions but I frequently read yours which come over as sneering at others who don’t see things your way.
No doubt you’ll have a go at me now…
Lord Parramandas,
You misstated my argument on why I disliked season 6 that’s why I responded. All I do is make logical points on why I liked / disliked aspects of season 6 and I constantly get attacked by people who, frankly, are extremely sensitive and really get angry when someone has a differing view point from them. I just made a little passing comment with respect to the theories Sue wrote about which prompted someone to get furious and tell someone else to ignore me, and made another poster mention how I’ve given them PTSD with my comments. And you yourself mentioned how you would prefer to be in a bubble where only positive things are said about the show. And you also excuse people for bashing me just because I have a “negative” opinion, no matter how logically it’s stated.
Halfman,
Not sure where I’ve been condescending. I’m pretty respectful in making my points if the other person is the same way to me.
Many love season 6 & can’t see why it’s been less than wow for other people.
For me it started out fairly “meh” inspite of the Jon dead or alive drama
It’s true D&D have set the bar v high
One can’t have wow and boom all the time. But a few spots eg Hodor’s sacrifice & Dany’s burning the Khals plus the last 2 episodes were the best ever and more than made up for it.
Now that R+L=J is gospel, I want to know who the Valonqar is. Disagree it is 100% Jaime. Could b Bran. Could also be a girl. Arya. And also why “There must always be a Stark in Winterfell”. ..?? For the Stark or winter dragon. It could be the Ice Dragon (see the book) that is now the pool by the Weirwood Tree.
Court,
Tell it to /r/gameofthrones
The novels already have vampires of a sort: the Undying Ones who try to feed on Daenerys’ lifeforce.
After the Harry Potter series, someone did a survey of the prominent fan ideas prior to the last book. Just as with these ideas, the fans were really barking up the wrong trees on a lot of things! One of the things noted was that the typical book reader probably never thought of any of these things: and it was suggested that fans egg each other on so much with ideas that the fans forget what is and is not from the books.
It occurs to me that there is one other big difference, though. Many of the ideas above were supported with the claim with the justification that “We don’t know that it’s wrong.” That’s never a good line of reasoning. For example, if there is no evidence that there are vampires or mermen in Planetos, then people should not posit that characters are those things: the fact that we do not know that they are not there is just bad reasoning! (And, of course, it would be awful writing by GRRM, too.)
Incidentally, it occurs to me that there were several other ideas that many here have taken as “gospel” that went down in flames.
1. Jon would “warg” into Ghost and spend a lot of time wandering around as a wolf with a human mind learning about the Walkers, etc., before rejoining his body.
2. The Old Gods, not Melisandre, would be responsible for bringing Jon back.
3. Stannis/Theon/Mance wrote the Pink Letter.
4. Many of the Northerners have been preparing for a fight against White Walkers for a while.
5. Euron would be the primary antagonist in the remainder of the story.
I suppose that some will claim that these things still might happen in the book: but given that GRRM still says that M&B will end up in the same place that he does (assuming that GRRM ever finishes!), that seems really (really) implausible.
I’m not all the way through the books yet – just finished Book 4 – but it clearly stated in the book that Cersei is the elder twin (when Tyrion and Oberyn are discussing Dornish laws of succession). So the valonquar could easily be Jaime. Of course Cersei would interpret the prophecy to mean Tyrion, hence her lifelong fear and antipathy towards him.
But I’d be cheering if either the Hound or Arya ended up being the valonquar as well. I don’t know enough to comment on valonquar being a gender-neutral term, but Arya has been disguised as a boy in the books so often that she is a valid contender, notwithstanding her ability to wear another face. Cersei has it coming from so many fronts. Hopefully it is just as satisfying as Joffrey’s demise.