The Winds of Winter will not be published before Season 6

twowAlthough that was certainly the plan of George R.R. Martin and his publisher (not to mention our hope), we won’t read Book 6 ahead of Season 6 of Game of Thrones. In the last of a series of yearender posts on his Not A Blog, GRRM tackles the issue.

Cold, hard facts: The Winds of Winter is not finished, although a lot has been written. Says Martin: “But there’s also a lot still left to write. I am months away still… and that’s if the writing goes well”.

He reveals that he was first planning to be done by Halloween, and then by the end of the year, which would still give the publishers enough time, with an accelerated turn-around schedule (similar to when A Dance with Dragons was done). Clearly, that did not work out.

But I won’t make excuses. There are no excuses. No one else is to blame. Not my editors and publishers, not HBO, not David & Dan. It’s on me. I tried, and I am still trying. I worked on the book a couple of days ago, revising a Theon chapter and adding some new material, and I will writing on it again tomorrow. But no, I can’t tell you when it will be done, or when it will be published. Best guess, based on our previous conversations, is that Bantam (and presumably my British publisher as well) can have the hardcover out within three months of delivery, if their schedules permit. But when delivery will be, I can’t say. I am not going to set another deadline for myself to trip over. The deadlines just stress me out. I am going back to my stance from last March, before all this. It will be done when it’s done. And it will be as good as I can possibly make it.

Hear Marko Roar: Interestingly, the rumours and optimistic musings that we may yet get to read the next book before April were not unfounded, but the plans fell through as they are wont to do. Will the show “spoil” the novels? Well, that’s inevitable, at least when it comes to the plot’s major beats (which matter most), and we have been preparing for it mentally for a long time. Still, due to the divergences between the books and the adaptation (George goes into more detail on the matter in his post), there should be a whole lot to enjoy and I am looking forward to Winds just as much as I always have.

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1,016 Comments

  1. My first Hodor.

    I’m not surprised at all by this news. Not a book reader, used to wish I had read them but now glad I didn’t…the wait for an ending is too long.

  2. It was a very honest piece and well-worth a read. It’s obviously been very difficult for him to realise and admit that the show would catch up to the books. Props to him for doing so, truly, even though it doesn’t change that Winds isn’t done yet.

    He also discussed that readers and watchers are able to enjoy both book and show.

    I know what the next question will be, because hundreds of you have already asked it of me. Will the show ‘spoil’ the novels?

    Maybe. Yes and no. Look, I never thought the series could possibly catch up with the books, but it has. The show moved faster than I anticipated and I moved more slowly. There were other factors too, but that was the main one. Given where we are, inevitably, there will be certain plot twists and reveals in season six of GAME OF THRONES that have not yet happened in the books. For years my readers have been ahead of the viewers. This year, for some things, the reverse will be true. How you want to handle that… hey, that’s up to you. Look, I read Andy Weir’s novel THE MARTIAN before I saw the movie. But I saw the BBC production of JONATHAN STRANGE AND MR NORRELL before I finally got around to reading Susanna Clarke’s novel. In both cases, I loved the book and I loved the adaptation. It does not need to be one or the other. You might prefer one over the other, but you can still enjoy the hell out of both.

  3. Excellent , the level of whine about this on AFOIAF will make for hilarious entertainment over the next day or so .

  4. And wow, a projected 3 months to go from manuscript to hardcover release! I know the the demand for Winds is huge, but that’s impressive. If they needed to fit editing in there and ensure it was done properly, they’d be working day and night.

  5. Well disappointing but not surprising.
    In a way having the show answer ‘what happens next’ could make the books more enjoyable: it may be easier to concentrate on some of the wider detail without feeling impatient for the next plot development.
    One thing I wonder under this process is while the show has the detail of what happens, will we be getting some of GRRM’S great lines from his manuscript into the show?

  6. Isabelle,

    Yeah, he gets my respect for that. Glad he put the issue to rest for now. Not sure all of what else has been behind the delay but I do know if I were a writer and felt pressured or stressed to hurry it up that would affect my creativity and the final result in a big way. I’m curious though…how long an interval was it between the first 3 books?

  7. Well, shit. I really would’ve preferred to read the Winds of Winter before the show spoils a lot of it. I think it will be pretty frustrating to watch season 6 and try to guess what is book canon and what is not. But George is under so much pressure that I kind of feel bad for saying that.

    Well, at least now there’ll be even more to discuss and debate about after every episode!

    Happy New Year to everyone anyway!

  8. At this stage it was really starting to become inevitable that TWOW would never be out before season 6. But it is really good to see that GRRM give such an in-depth and open answer about his progress and struggles with the book.
    Now he will once again be free to write without the added pressure of that looming deadline. I would presume that these books are quite complicated write, therefore it always seems understandable to me that he takes his time.
    The book will be out when it gets done, and in the meantime we can now watch the show again without knowing or presuming what should be happening.

  9. Ygritte: Respect to him for saying that. Glad he put the issue to rest, for now. I know if I were a writer and felt pressured or stressed to hurry it up that would affect my creativity and the final result in a big way.

    Completely agree. Deadlines suck in general, but he’s facing a bit more than normal in terms of scrutiny!

    Ygritte: I’m curious though…how long an interval was it between the first 3 books?

    According to Wikipedia, he started writing ASOIAF in 1991 and the first book was published in 1996. The second and third followed in 2-year intervals.

    A Game of Thrones (1996)
    A Clash of Kings (1998)
    A Storm of Swords (2000)

  10. ”It does not need to be one or the other. You might prefer one over the other, but you can still enjoy the hell out of both.”

    My opinion exactly, very well said. (won’t stop crazy people being crazy, but it’s a very resonable/moderate stance)

  11. It’s his life’s one of the biggest work….I think he wants to be patient and give us the best possible story in best possible way….He can write in his own pace in his own way. …I started reading the books after I started watching the show …and it’s so awesome I can visualise things..more clearly. ….so I will read the book whenever it’s published. ..even if it is published after the show concludes ( although I would love to read it earlier than that )…….

  12. 16th century. Regarding the painting of the Sistine Chapel.

    Julius II: “When will you make and end?”
    Michelangelo: “When I’m finished.”

  13. It was a sad post from Martin really. You can tell he is disappointed with himself and more or less depressed about the whole thing… and once the show has passed the books, there will be even less reasons to write as fast as he can.
    Anyway, for me, the answer to “will the show spoil the books?” is a huge YES. All those characters Martin lists whose fates have been different in the books and the show are tertiary characters at best. But what most people mean with “spoil the books” is: will the show reveal the fates of Jon Snow, Daenerys, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Sansa, Cercei, Jaime? Will the show portray the second (Dany’s Dance of Dragons) and third (Fight againts White Walkers) conflicts before the books? Will the show spoil how the story ends? the answer is YES.

  14. To be honest, I always tought WOW will come out, eventually. Definetly not before S6 tough, never belived that for a second and I have doubts it will be realesed in 2016.
    2017 tough sounds resonable.

    It’s ADOS that I have very little faith it will ever be realesed.

  15. Isabelle,

    Yes but he barely wrote anything between 1991-1993.At the end of 1993 he had around 150 pages writen, 13 chapters I believe, and the outline he was following was VERY different from the finished product. And in less than three years, the first book came out, perfectly finished.
    Don’t fool yourselves. Having more time to write the books doesn’t make them better. (in fact, any writer who needs to eat has to write books “fast”). And the truth is, he still needs to write a seventh book, AT LEAST! The situation doesn’t look good.

  16. smitzzz,

    Some of the contents on r/asoiaf while they were waiting for this update post were truly hilarious to read.

    LordDavos,

    I guess we will never know that until either D&D or GRRM address this. But I hope the showmakers had access to the TWOW manuscripts while working on S6.

    Mihnea,

    Mihnea,

    Yeah, I dont think we will get TWOW before 2017. And ADOS will probably never get finished, atleast not by Martin.

  17. oier,

    All true statements, though I think it’s fair to say he was in a very different headspace back then. He’s facing wildly differently levels of pressure and speculation now, and it’s clearly having an effect. It would on most anyone.

    That he’s fully aware of it and still determined to complete the book–and in a way that passes muster–is a good thing.

  18. As said before, everything related to Brann is a Winds of Winter stuff, so I assume that is what GRRM was referring to.

    Jaime seems to be heading into his Feast for the Crows storyline, but Asha, Theon and Sansa are totally messed up.

    Not to mention the Dumb and Dumber completely screwed over King Stannis.

  19. Isabelle,

    I totally agree. It was honest and he’s absolutely right. I also watched Jonathan Strange on BBC, then read the book right after. I really enjoyed them both and the order didn’t affect anything. I have several friends who swear up and down that they won’t watch season 6 if TWOW wasn’t out first and it’s silly as shit. As a book reader, one of the exciting things about watching the show for me is seeing how the show handles the changes during the adaptation. And hey, I’ll be the first to admit that some of the changes were horrible
    Especially with some of the character development. But in way, the book readers should be rooting for the changes at this point. It’ll make more TWOW exciting to read, especially if season 6 isn’t that great. Not that I’m hoping for season 6 to suck haha.

  20. I’m so over the series, books and show, for different reasons, but as an overzealous fan once upon a time, I just can’t help but stick around and see this thing through.

    I really sympathize with George’s plight.
    I’m both excited and terrified D&D is giving us the ending of the story.

    And on another note I’m a bit frustrated there ARE fantasy/sci-fi series out there waiting to be adapted, but the gods have willed ASOIAF – an uncomplete series – to become a pop culture phenomenon. One that gets a faithful adaptation in the first 4 seasons, and then just becomes radically different in the last 3-4. I feel a bit cheated, IMO.

    Oh well…it’s just fiction. My life must go on.

  21. Respect to George for telling us the score. In truth I am not surprised just disappointed, I was hoping Winds would be out before season 6 goes out. However my main concerns are for where GOT goes next. We must presume that season 7’s storyboards & scripts are written and they are now setting up shooting schedules which probably means that season 7 will climax with the end of Winds…. but for that to happen D&D must know how George will end the book and where the story goes in a Dawn of Spring…. the trouble is at the rate GRRM is writing GOT will probably conclude 5 years before he publishes his final Novel…. and in TV Land that makes him History. If so that will be a sad way for this to end….

  22. Not suprised.
    Never really been angry at the wait at just the fact that we didn’t have a release date.

  23. Gape, laugh, whimper, cry, curse, wail, beat breast, gnash teeth, flip table, self harm, simper, entreat Gods, shout at dog, lament, bemoan, self pity, mutter, breathe deeply, reflect, meditate, disambiguate, begin positive reallignment process….

  24. Its not big deal for me, the books and the show are already so much different. We will know how Jon get resurrected and a general direction of main characters, but even there we will have no idea if it is fairly accurate adaptation like Jon´s and Cersei´s season 5 storyline, changed a lot but going into same direction like Dany´s and Arya´s storyline or completely off like Sansa´s and Jaime´s storylines. I just hope the books will be finished eventually, before you know what.

  25. I’m not surprised, and kind of relieved. I started this journey with the show, and after season one or two I started reading the books mostly to avoid reading more spoilers by childish book readers —I did fall in love with the books, but the truth is that, for me, this is still mainly about the show. For once, I wanted to have an unspoiled season, and I knew that I wouldn’t be able to avoid TWOW spoilers if it came out, so it’s nice to know that it won’t. Of course, it was incredibly depressing to read that blog post, and I feel for the guy —but I gotta be honest, as far as I am concerned, these are good news.

    LordDavos: One thing I wonder under this process is while the show has the detail of what happens, will we be getting some of GRRM’S great lines from his manuscript into the show?

    I imagine so. In season four, when Arya killed Polliver, she did so in the same way and with similar lines with which she killed Raff in TWOW’s Arya chapter, which was released by GRRM months or weeks before season four aired. So D&D must’ve had access to it before that.

  26. Probably for the best I suppose. It’ll (hopefully) be more refined as a result of going back to his own (lack of) deadlines. Also, I probably won’t be hating on the show as much now. I had a lot of problems with season 5, but now at least those from the “This Didn’t Happen in the Book!!!!!” category of complaint will cease to crop up. There’s relief to be had in that.

  27. oier: Anyway, for me, the answer to “will the show spoil the books?” is a huge YES. All those characters Martin lists whose fates have been different in the books and the show are tertiary characters at best. But what most people mean with “spoil the books” is: will the show reveal the fates of Jon Snow, Daenerys, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Sansa, Cercei, Jaime? Will the show portray the second (Dany’s Dance of Dragons) and third (Fight againts White Walkers) conflicts before the books? Will the show spoil how the story ends? the answer is YES.

    Agreed. I found that part of his post to be too naive. Most of those are tertiary characters at best —except for Stannis, who will surely die in TWOW. And that’s just the fates of characters —this season, often from the very first episode, we shall see what happens to ALL the major characters post-ADWD: Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Cersei, Jaime… and all the rest, truly.

  28. I’ve come to the conclusion that GRRM isn’t writing TWOW anymore and that in fact he has no idea which book the chapters that he’s writing will end up in, which is why no matter how much time he spends on it he never has enough to be released.

    Either that or he hasn’t got enough fan favorite characters left to kill and refuses to put out a happy book.

  29. Bending Knee: Not to mention the Dumb and Dumber completely screwed over King Stannis.

    Go to other sites for the petty insults —that is not permitted here. Anyway, so you think Stannis won’t die in TWOW? D&D didn’t just invent that.

    Bending Knee: Jaime seems to be heading into his Feast for the Crows storyline

    The difference is that this storyline will probably have a climax in the show, based on TWOW material. The same goes for Sam. Most storylines, especially those of the “main” characters (Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran), will go into TWOW from the very first episode. Others, such as Jaime and Sam and even Arya, will have some AFFC and ADWD material in season six —but before the end of the season, all characters will have gone through TWOW spoilers.

  30. Luka Nieto,

    Agree completely with thus post, and came to the books after I had already watched the show too.

    I have a lot of respect for George, and I really feel for him, but if this reduces the corrosive atmosphere that surrounded a lot of last season it’s fantastic news. Goodbye Elio and Linda.

  31. Not unexpected in the least as Martin’s writing speed has been getting worse by the year. As was said upthread, he wrote three huge books from 1993-2000, with some early stuff done in 1991 and 1992. In the fifteen years since he’s managed to write 1 book. Yes, one, because Feast and Dance are essentially a single book split for size. You could argue it’s not even one book, because the natural stopping points of those book(s) were cut out and left for Winds.

    That said, I still think Season won’t be as spoilerific as some believe. Based on all the filming news and what we know of show storylines, I believe Season 6 will cover at best the first half or maybe 2/3 of the book. Those that are horrified by the prospect of being spoiled should take this as some small comfort I guess.

  32. I have a lot of respect for George,and I really feel for him,but if this reduces the corrosive atmosphere that surrounded a lot of last season it’s fantastic news. Goodbye Elio and Linda.

    No, this won’t. People will still find reasons to complain and say “so and so event will never happen in WOW”, especially if they don’t like what happens to one of their favorite characters. Stannis last season is a big example of this.

  33. Jeb:
    Luka Nieto,

    I have a lot of respect for George,and I really feel for him,but if this reduces the corrosive atmosphere that surrounded a lot of last season it’s fantastic news. Goodbye Elio and Linda.

    No this won’t. People will still find reasons to complain and say “so and so event will never happen in the books”, especially if they don’t like what happens to their favorite characters. Stannis last season is a big example of this.

  34. Well considering everything, this is a really nice way to start my year.

    I didn’t want to read WOW anyway, not before the show ending and reading lots and lots of reviews.(didn’t do this with AFFC/ADWD and I regret it to this day)

    I want to watch the show just once, with that sanse of wonder and excitment and not knowing what happens next. Hardhome really convinced me that not reading the next books until the show is done, is the best option.

    If WOW would have been published before S6, I planned to stop going too forums like this as not to be spoiled. (people are nice here but there is always that one asshole)

    Knew this would be hard, hell you can get a spoiler on a random youtube video or a website that has nothing to do with GOT.

    But now I’m even more excited too watch S6. All in all, this is good news for me.

  35. I realized a while ago that GOT would provide us the ending to that story. And I’m fine with that.

    Heck, one of the reasons the massacre at Hardhome was so exciting for me last year was that I had no idea what was going to happen, so I’m actually really looking forward to experience GOT as an almost completely unsullied for the first time ever this year.

  36. Maceless Fan:

    I also watched Jonathan Strange on BBC, then read the book right after. I really enjoyed them both and the order didn’t affect anything. I have several friends who swear up and down that they won’t watch season 6 if TWOW wasn’t out first and it’s silly as shit. As a book reader, one of the exciting things about watching the show for me is seeing how the show handles the changes during the adaptation.

    With you all the way! I had a similar experience with Lord of the Rings in that I saw the films before reading the books and it didn’t take away from my enjoyment in any way. If anything, it actually helped: I came across The Hobbit when I was very young, fell in love with Middle-earth, immediately tried to read LOTR, but wasn’t quite ready (got lost in the descriptions, poetry etc and couldn’t understand what was going on). Years later I saw the films and not only did it reinvigorate interest in Tolkien, it provided a general sequence of events to ground my reading (I sat down with Fellowship as soon as I was home from the cinema!). I wish they’d been around when I’d first picked up the books as it would have provided some much-needed context and gotten me into LOTR much sooner. GRRM’s only gained readers through the exposure the show’s brought his world.

    And yes, be it LOTR and ASOIAF, picking out the differences between book and adaption was great fun, not to mention made for great discussion. With the source material unfinished, come April the question “do you think x is canon or adaption?” will be much more interesting.

  37. Mr Fixit: That said, I still think Season won’t be as spoilerific as some believe. Based on all the filming news and what we know of show storylines, I believe Season 6 will cover at best the first half or maybe 2/3 of the book.

    Half or two thirds of TWOW being spoiled is a lot of spoilers. From the very first episode, the show will spoil the TWOW storylines (incomplete or not) of Jon, Dany and the Dothraki, Tyrion and Meereen, Bran, Cersei and King’s Landing (the fate of the threeway Lannister—Tyrells—Faith Militant struggle), Theon… and throughout the season, Arya, Jaime and Brienne, Sam, Littlefinger and Sansa and the Vale, whatever happens with the Night’s Watch and the wildlings… and pretty much everyone else.

  38. Not entirely unexpected, he has been travelling quite a lot and whatnot. I hope or wish for it to come out end of this year so the wait for season 7 is less agonizing for all of us.

    Anyway Happy New year y’all.

  39. I’m pretty happy about this. I think that this outcome will resolve a lot of tensions in the fandom – especially since S78 will come before ADOS anyway. There are already a lot of people on reddit saying, ‘I care less about the books now, just waiting for the show (and if the books appear, all the better, GRRM take his time!)’. So, more and more people instead of viewing the show and the books are opposites, come to see them as complements. Which is pretty cool, not just because it will marginalise the purist radicals even further, but, above all, because it’s the healthy position to take. ?

  40. Mihnea,

    This is a good point. You can argue the same is true in reverse, that the excitement of reading the book will instead be spoiled. But personally, I read books for more than just plot – there’s also the language, the beauty of the writing itself, being taken inside the heads of characters in a way that TV can’t really do, and so on. In other words, the TV show relies more on excitement and plot. It may sound pretentious, but I believe there are more layers to a book. I will still happily read TWOW, even if GOT completely ‘spoils’ all of the main plot points. Because if reading a book was just a case of ingesting a plot, then every book could be reduced to a series of bullet points on a sheet of A4 paper, and that’s not really reading at all.

  41. It’s incredible how self-deluded we can be when we so want something to happen. GRRM probably knew in the back of his mind that even the end of year deadline was impossible but you tell yourself it’s doable.

    I also wonder what this will do for his writing speed and whether we will ever see book 7. Either the pressure will be off and he’ll speed up or his motivation will go altogether.

    I also can’t decide if I feel for him or not. I mean, I do on one hand – he’s obviously under a lot of pressure and his sadness is genuine and palpable. But on the other hand, it’s his job. I know ta a creative job, but I can’t help but think he should approach it more professionally.

  42. This was inevitable at some point, anyway; nobody seriously believed that the last book would be out before the end of the TV show, so at best, we’re reaching this point 1 or 2 years earlier. If the TV show goes to 8 series, there is absolutely no way that ADOS would be published before S8, so this was always going to happen eventually.

  43. Glad to hear, he should never be rushed, I would rather wait the time for a masterpiece that stands the test of time over generations than some sub-standard rushed piece of literature

  44. Personally, I think it is good that he addressed this in his blog. Not for me, I already was 100percent sure, that Winds of Winter is not finished, but some still hopeful fans got now some clearity.

    But he should have just said, it is not finished and I do not know when it will be finished, it will definitely not be finished before season 6. When it is done, it is done. That would have been enough.

    BUT: He states that he has already written hundreds of pages and that the book could be finished within months, if everything is going well. Personally, I doubt this, he is not good in guessing his progress and seems to be quite unrealistic regarding his writing speed.

    He needs to put the pressure off himself, but with this statement he did not put the pressure off, the pressure ist just delayed for some months. Some of the fanbase (I am talking about you, westeros.org and Reddit) will just take from his statement that the book can be finished within month and hope now that the book will be finished before the end of the year. So, the pressure will still be there.

    Personally I do not believe that we will ever read the end of the series. The Winds of Winter may be finished in some years. (2018, 2020, 2022 whatever) But I do not have any hopes for the last book.

    Fortunately, we have the TV show which will tell us the end and the main plots and the fate of the main characters.

  45. ….and the most important bit of information I got from that entire post was that Season 6 will premiere in mid April, not the end. So…April 17th? I’m putting my money on that date.

  46. At least, GRRM is honest and give us something. He’s usually not a talker, and in this post he’s saying us why he couldn’t do it. Now, I’m not a hardcore fan of the books so I can see season 6 and read the book after.

  47. Im so not surprised. I gave up on the very idea of WoW a few years ago. I read the books long before the show, and have been pleased by the adaptation for the most part. Now, its just the show, Im enjoying it, and Im not even sure I’d read another book at this point. . Im glad Martin has finally realized and admitted that its not going to happen. Just a bummer it couldn’t have been different.

  48. Ross: But on the other hand, it’s his job. I know ta a creative job, but I can’t help but think he should approach it more professionally.

    And on a third hand, he’s now 67 years old and shouldn’t have to be comitted to a job anymore. If he just went out and said that he has no more fun writing and that he just wants to enjoy his life from now on, I’d be totally ok with that.

  49. Luka Nieto,

    We already know that stuff from Bran last chapter in ADWD will be making into the show, and with the ToJ being taken from season 1, a good chunk of his storyline is not TWOW material.

    The Yunkai seem to be coming into play this season, Tyrion will probably face some of the situations we saw Dany face in ADWD.

  50. I enjoyed ASOIAF even after seeing up until S3 of ‘spoilers’ from the TV show so this is no problem for me at all. In fact I find it even more exciting that I get to see GoT without knowing 90% of the plot already. Like back in the S1-3 days. Knowing the plot while reading is a lot more enjoyable for me than knowing the plot on TV.

  51. KrakenDaughter: We already know that stuff from Bran last chapter in ADWD will be making into the show, and with the ToJ being taken from season 1, a good chunk of his storyline is not TWOW material.

    Nope. The ToJ in AGOT was a partial dream in Ned’s head —this season we get the big revelation with Bran and the Three-eyed Raven, which is of course TWOW material. Yes, all of us pretty much know the big twist already, but it’s still something the books have been building towards. There’s no “good chunk” of Bran’s story this season that comes from ADWD or earlier. There’s NO chunk at all! We’re getting a Winterfell flashback to the previous Stark generation —but we know that it won’t be like the one in Bran’s las chapter, as Lyanna and young Hodor will be involved, and possibly Rickard Stark too.

    Bob Warren: But personally, I read books for more than just plot – there’s also the language, the beauty of the writing itself, being taken inside the heads of characters in a way that TV can’t really do, and so on. In other words, the TV show relies more on excitement and plot. It may sound pretentious, but I believe there are more layers to a book.

    That sounds more ignorant than pretentious to me. You are right about one thing —books are about more than plot. It’s the beauty of the language, the pacing, everything. But the same goes for a film or TV show! Film language is important, and Game of Thrones makes extensive use of it. Even with the same plot, Game of Thrones would be a million times poorer if it was shot as a mindless romantic comedy or action movie. I watch Game of Thrones in large part because of how beautifully it’s shot and composed —because of the beauty of its film language; not unlike the beauty of the language in a book.

  52. I think he is more depressed about it than we are because we all were expecting a long wait. Honestly I have been saying 2017 since ADwD came out so I’m definitely not shocked and would have been more shocked if it did come out before the show. To be fair, he didn’t say it wouldn’t be this year – just not before the next season airs. Yeah it will suck that certain things will be spoiled, but it is what it is and now is the point where the books and the show need to just be looked at as separate entities.

  53. zod: And on a third hand, he’s now 67 years old and shouldn’t have to be comitted to a job anymore. If he just went out and said that he has no more fun writing and that he just wants to enjoy his life from now on, I’d be totally ok with that.

    That would be true if it only affected him, but the fact is, Game of Thrones / ASOIAF is bigger than him now – a lot of other livelihoods depend on it and he has contractual commitments for which he has been immensely well reimbursed (and rightly so). He used to work in TV so he knows what deadlines are all about. As he says himself, really there are no excuses. Hopefully we’ll see it at some point this year.

  54. The last two ASOIAF books were shit, I’ve never had high hopes for TWOW, I will give it a chance when it’s published but I’m not waiting with bated breath for it. This whole situation is just amusing now given the sheer volume of whining coming from show detractors/book purists, with many of them actually having held out hope for the book to come out before s6, so that they wouldn’t be spoiled by the show (which is weird seeing as they relentlessly criticise it for having little to do with ASOIAF). What’s more, they ought to prepare themselves that the only GOT/ASOIAF ending they will likely ever get will come from D&D.

  55. Luka Nieto: That sounds more ignorant than pretentious to me. You are right about one thing —books are about more than plot. I

    heh, yeah: I always thought that they were about stories! 😀

    At this point, I think that we should not count on seeing the Winter novel until after the HBO series is complete. There are two reasons for this. One is psychological. If you ever have worked on a big project that had a deadline, and then missed the deadline by so much that the project no longer had a due date, then you know how hard it is to muster the energy to resume it. Deadlines are great things: they are the closing doors for which you are dashing and trying to pull an Indiana Jones escape. Shut that door and… well, what is the point in running?

    The second is adaptation. One big advantage adapters of original works have is that they can take advantage of how different parts of the original were received. For example, much of what was criticized about Lord of the Rings (Bombadil, Glorfindel’s Folly, the out-of-the-blue Scouring of the Shire) was cut from the films. Tolkien fans cried: but other readers felt that a good editor should have done the same. We’ve seen the same thing here: much of what was criticized about the novels was cut in the adaptation.

    Now, the shoe is on the other foot. GRRM can now see how basic parts of Winter are received: and it will be very, very difficult for him to ignore things that are not received well. Obviously, he has to take into account literary gills vs. cinematic lungs issues: but if the criticism is of the breathing apparatus in general, then it will be very very difficult for him to ignore those criticisms. Moreover, I do not think that he should: if you are given a second chance to “do it right” (or, at least “not do it wrong”), then you should take advantage of it!

  56. I don’t feel sorry for him at all.
    I still think that we won’t see TWOW before 2018. Maybe, just maybe we will be able to publish that book in 2017. but I’m not so sure.

    I will put this great post from user Alex Greyjoy at iswintercomming.net

    “Hundreds of pages, dozens of chapters” is what he was saying about ADWD for 2-3 years before it actually came out. Also, he was talking about “release by X date/holiday” since 2007 or so. This is ADWD situation all over again.

    GURM is not a professional writer, this is a hobby for him. Fortunately for him, he makes a living off this hobby, but it’s a hobby. Professional writers write and not wait for a muse. I’ve read and heard enough Cornwell’s interviews where he describes himself as an gardener even worse than GURM (he describes situations where he sits to write a chapter and doesn’t even know how it ends), and still he writes every day for hours and that’s why he releases a book per year. Also, GURM is a classic procrastinator and he won’t release the book until he has an ultimatum from the publishers. He won’t have it for a long time now because the show overtook the books and no one really cares anymore. In procrastinator’s vocabulary “Hundreds of pages, dozens of chapters” means ~200 pages and a ~20 chapters or something like that.

    ADWD took him 6 years and it was rushed into publication unfinished and without any editing, just so it would coincide with the end of S1 of GoT. TWOW will be out in 2017 at the earliest, only if his publishers still care about the books. If not, it might never be released at all.

  57. I think this will be a relief for GRRM. He won’t have a deadline (to catch up to the show) anymore which can mean that he can focus better from all the fan-stress that pressured him over the last few years.

  58. phantomstrife: The last two ASOIAF books were shit,

    I agree that Crows was a travesty, but Dragons really had some good stuff. OK, yes: it could have used some editing. However, the Jon and Daeny storylines paralleled each other beautifully, and GRRM really did a very good job of making their character evolution point and counterpoint each other. Theon’s stuff was pretty good, too: although it really would have benefited from being intertwined with another protagonist.

    I would agree that GRRM misstepped with Tyrion by giving him a “fire/misfire/refire” plotline that sort of tripped up the story. Watching the show makes me realize that the Selmy PoV chapters should have been Tyrions: but Tyrion getting there in time was tripped up by the “stumble” in the middle of his plotline. And although Quentyn offended me much less than Arianne, it was superfluous. (Sorry, but getting the dragons free should have been a very simple plot procedure!)

  59. Bending Knee: Not to mention the Dumb and Dumber completely screwed over King Stannis.

    If you do not think that Stannis is in for a similar fate in the books, then, well: you have not been paying attention! (Think Pink.)

  60. “I never thought the series could possibly catch up with the books, but it has.” Pretty much every fan was worried about this, even when the HBO deal was announced in bloody 2007. It goes to show the man has absolutely no professional work ethic and is incredibly delusional about this. I remember fondly the day when he thought ADWD could be done in 1 month and it took him another 2 years for his editor to just publish whatever he had without a proper ending. Now he is saying it will take him months to finish if the writing goes well, we all know this means we won’t see the next book even before season 7.

  61. Lauren: I think he is more depressed about it than we are because we all were expecting a long wait.

    Having missed self-imposed deadlines in which there was no longer any point in setting a new deadline once or twice myself, I can definitely support that idea. It’s really quite devastating: the two time it happened to me, I had a tough time not simply throwing out the project!

  62. Wimsey: I agree that Crows was a travesty, but Dragons really had some good stuff. OK, yes: it could have used some editing.

    I liked ADWD. Honestly, maybe I even loved it. But it could have used ANY editing. Because it so obviously had none at all. GRRM is a great writer, so the finished book was still pretty amazing, but come on… Everyone needs an editor. I don’t know if most people are aware of how important editors are. Ask writers —often, the editors salvage meandering shit and turn it into gold. ADWD was pretty cool as it was, but it still sorely needed an editor. An over-abundance of POVs (a few with incredibly repetitive and pointless stories, such as Arianne and Quentyn), no climax for pretty much any of the storylines… Man, hopefully some day a fan makes an edition of AFFC & ADWD that takes out the fat and turns that rough diamond into a true masterpiece.

  63. Knurk: Pretty much every fan was worried about this, even when the HBO deal was announced in bloody 2007.

    I was on sabbatical from the fandom at that point. (I was a big fan in the last 90’s and early aughts: but between Crows over late release and over poor quality, I wrote off GRRM as another Robert Jordan until the show appeared.) Was that really the reaction? After all, supposedly DwD was nearly done and due out any year: and supposedly GRRM was going to get back on the every 2-3 pace of the early novels.

  64. zod,

    I do believe the publishing house that made aSoIaF possible and gave Martin the platform to success would have serious issues with that stance.

  65. Wimsey:
    Luka Nieto,

    But, man: what a great second or third draft it was!

    It was! The story was great. Still, I long for a proper edition of AFFC & ADWD. It would basically be the “Boiled Leather” fan edition but not just amalgamating the two books into one in terms of reading order but also making a few difficult cuts. After all, just because you like a character or a plotline doesn’t mean it needs to be there, it doesn’t mean it’s properly servicing the story —and that goes to George as much as to the fans. “Kill your darlings”!

    Though season five had a few missteps, overall I’d say it’s pretty much what I’m describing —all the major characters are present and have a story arc from beginning to end, with a few proper climaxes, and there’s no repetitive or pointless “storylines” with no actual story to be found —it’s just absurd that there are three different characters in ADWD whose storylines that can be summed up with “I’m traveling to Meereen and geez isn’t it difficult”. We needed to follow Tyrion in that journey for the story’s sake —the others? No.

  66. Ross,

    A lot of other livelihoods depend on GoT that much is true, but not really for ASoIaF. Maybe some, but not nearly as much and even then not entirely. ASoIaF is a big book series and lots of people work on it, but it is nothing compared to the giant, always running machine that is GoT.
    I’m not saying GRRM has no contracts to fulfill, but I doubt that something like “books X and Y have do be finished before the show” is part of that. The show does not need the books anymore, in fact, maybe it never needed them.
    The books will come out when they come out, and when they do I will read them, the show is a different beast.

  67. Luka Nieto: We needed to follow Tyrion in that journey for the story’s sake —the others? No.

    Indeed! Moreover, I really think that Tyrion’s “stumble” interfered with communicating the story. He starts off in the dumps, starts to pick up after meeting a certain collection of “My Death was Greatly Exaggerated” characters, then winds up back in the dumps after encountering Jorah, with no rebound until very late. The story really came from the rebound: but having two of them blurred GRRM’s point.

    But the Victarion and Quentyn stuff all could have been deleted. If we are correct about the sole plot point that Victarion will provide, then I think that it is another “Numenorean Sword”: the show will skip right past it and although the fans will scream “Nobody could understand how it happened!” the general viewer will not even question how it happened! Similarly, once Tyrion or whomever (including the dragons themselves) accomplishes what Quentyn did, nobody is going to think twice about it.

  68. Wimsey:
    flintstonewielder,

    Possibly even a legal issue!

    If he dropped aSoIaF outright, could be. Well, we don´t know what their contract looks like, so it´s all speculation. Just looking at his LostPostGate entries from the last 24 hours, you get a snapshot of GRRM´s motivations over the last few years. They are a lot of things, just not aSoIaF any more. Heck, he may have written more on Sad Puppies / Hugos than tWoW last year.

    To the enablers/apologists about to kick in (once they´re done licking their wounds): Yep, the Old Man can do whatever he wants. Actually, he has already been doing so w/o giving a flying f*ck about our blessings. Enjoy, I´ll say ! To the most deluded thinking *but he has hundreds of pages and dozens of chapters written* might result in a release later this year, read thru that same entry again where GRRM he keeps rewriting/discarding elements of the manuscript. Remember aDwD ? Same story. It took him years to figure that one out, and only because Harper Collins pried it out of his fingers. So…2017, or 2018…or whenever. *shrugs*. D&D – do your job ! The novelization of GoT can come whenever it wants.

  69. I’m thankful that George told us so we don’t live any longer than we have to with our delusions (for the next few months). Hell, I bet announcing that it won’t be out before season 6 will in some way relieve whatever pressure slows him down. Many artists are terrible with deadlines. You give them one and it slows them down. You tell them people are excited to experience their art and it slows them down to a crawl. Art is not the same as “doing your job.” Anyone who thinks it is doesn’t know shit… and has never created anything anyone but their mom wants to enjoy.

  70. LordDavos: In a way having the show answer ‘what happens next’ could make the books more enjoyable: it may be easier to concentrate on some of the wider detail without feeling impatient for the next plot development.

    A lot of truth in that.

  71. ghost of winterfell,

    Are you fucking retarded people? How many times do the showmakers and Martin himself have to say that they have access to all the winds of winter manuscripts and also MARTIN himself for more imformation?

  72. Wimsey,

    I preaty much think that ADWD is a miedocre book. The Jon and Dany stuff wasn’t really interesting too me.
    The other stories I was like ”meh”.

    Theon’s stuff was good.

    And…With shame I admit that Victarion was my guilty pleasure… Found his chapters funny and Maqorro was interesting…

  73. flintstonewielder:
    zod,

    I do believe the publishing house that made aSoIaF possible and gave Martin the platform to success would have serious issues with that stance.

    Blowing deadlines, not delivering anything and just enjoying his life is pretty much was he’s doing right now. Issue or not, it seems that there’s nothing that publishing house can do about that.

    And don’t talk as if that house didn’t get anything in return of “that platform to success” they “gave” him.

  74. GeekFurious,

    The typical apologist blabla.
    Martin himself admitted he loses interest in writing a story once he knows what the end is and he has to wrap it up. The publisher went ahead, anyway.

  75. Mihnea:
    Wimsey,

    I preaty much think that ADWD is a miedocre book. The Jon and Dany stuff wasn’t really interesting too me.
    The other stories I was like ”meh”.

    A lot of small-minded people agree with you.

  76. zod: Blowing deadlines, not delivering anything and just enjoying his life is pretty much was he’s doing right now. Issue or not, it seems that there’s nothing that publishing house can do about that.

    And don’t talk as if that house didn’t get anything in return of “that platform to success” they “gave” him.

    Oh, they got their sales out of the existing books. And all the corollary crap they launched in their wake. But that deal, so far, has been sweeter for GRRM. Whether they can do anything about it, again: We don´t know what´s in the contract.

    Finally, all of this is very encouraging for the chances of new, fledgling genre writers that would like to get multi-volume deals from publishing houses. GRRM/Rothfuss really improve their chances of success.

  77. Mihnea:
    GeekFurious,

    So just because I didn’t enjoy the book, I’m ”small-minded”?

    Don´t mind the guy. He lives on GRRM´s LJ blog sucking up to the man, so there it is.

  78. Luka Nieto,

    I don’t dispute that: it’ll be a lot of spoilers. I’m just saying it could be worse! I imagine Season 7 will cover the late TWoW/early ADoS.

    Also, much of Season 6 will be stuff readers can extrapolate from where the last book ended. True hardcore spoilers will arrive in Season 7, I expect.

  79. Interesting to wake up to this news…

    Yes, I am disappointed. I began this journey with S1 of the show and then read the all of the books a few months later. (And have re-read them since then.) I love both the show and the books.

    Nonetheless, I was hoping to read GRMM’s version of some of the major plot points that we know/suspect are coming in S6 before we saw them. That’s probably just my own impatience; the suspense is really agonizing. I will still read TWOW whenever it comes out and I watch the show with the same level of devotion.

    However, at this point, I believe that the show will provide us with the only complete version of the story that we will ever get.

  80. Since the show will already spoil a lot of the next book, he will have even less incentive to finish book 6 before even the show ENDS completely.

  81. So that is actually the official TWoW cover… always wondered if it was a fan-made or not. I always loved it so great news !

  82. Winds of Winter not coming out before season 6 is dissapointing but certainly not unexpected. The one I’m REALLY worried about is Dream of Spring and you should be too.

  83. While the selfish, petulant child in me wants more book as soon as possible and the businesswoman in me knows it’s unprofessional to miss deadlines, the artist and writer in me empathizes with GRRM in a big way.

    This story and world used to belong just to him. And he let it out in the world and it eventually became bigger than I think anyone expected. And now the pressure is on. He’s damned if he does (release the book, have it not be up to snuff, face criticism a la AFFC/ADWD) and damned if he doesn’t (what is happening now).

    I saw the first 6 episodes of season 1 before I started reading the book, but I caught up all the way to ADWD within months. I love both the story in both mediums equally but for different reasons.

    I choose to believe that the story will someway, somehow, be finished.

    I’M GOING ALL KINDS OF POLLYANNA IN 2016.

  84. I’m really disappointed. Not that is a surprise, but I was still hoping there’s a chance for TWOW to be published this year. For me it’s not an issue of spoiling – I can enjoy the books and the show separately and I rather like to compare them as parallels. The repeated delay is what annoys me. I wish I had known the book would be published in ten year from now, but that deadline to be respected. I can’t imagine the last two books not be published at all. That would make me mad, the Seven forbid!

  85. Mihnea,

    Oh course!! Don’t you know it’s impossible for two intelligent people to have difference of opinion on anything? So, if two people disagree, it must mean that one of those people is kind of dumb.

    As for this new, not at all surprising. I do feel like if they knew the book wasn’t coming they would have resurrected Jon in the finale. That would have been a way more interesting cliffhanger to me.

  86. Looking on the bright side, since he missed the chance to publish before season 6, the next big push will be for Christmas 2016 as far as I know.

    If he’s right that he’s only got a few more months of work left, maybe they’ll be able to take the time to do more editing instead of doing a 3 month scramble.

  87. I read A Game in 2000. Finished the first three books in less than 4 months. Read A Feast in 2005, and Dance when that came out, what 2011 or so???. I will read the books when published. I owe myself that at least, considering I have been on this 16 year and counting journey, but man my eyes are starting to get weak. Fucking reading glasses??? Really, doc?????

    However, I must say, there is a silver lining: That HBO is consistent enough to give us a season every year around the same time. I know that in the next 2-3 years there will be an ending to their story. Yeah, its not GMs story, but it is close enough to wet my whistle for the time being.

    It’s torturous. The agony of the wait and the ecstasy of the climax.

    Oh and penis.

  88. Not surprised with this news at all. I’ve made peace with the fact that the show will, more or less, spoil the ending of the series. I can live with that. I’ll read the rest of the books when it comes out.

  89. flintstonewielder:
    GeekFurious,

    The typical apologist blabla.
    Martin himself admitted he loses interest in writing a story once he knows what the end is and he has to wrap it up. The publisher went ahead, anyway.

    Typical childish extremist.

  90. You know the guy is terrible with dates/deadlines when he says he never thought the show would catch up with the books. At most by season 3 we all knew this would happen.

    I’m not disappointed because I wasn’t expecting TWOW to be out before S6. I’m just kinda concerned about his creative process. I hope he’s not seeing finishing ASOIF as a chore, and by the end, all the pressure he’s been going through doesn’t affect the final result, regardless of the time he’ll need to get everything done. He needs to enjoy his work geting done, not just the fans.

  91. Hodor,

    Dude, maybe you should tone down the language a bit. Retarded? I don’t recall reading any report which said the showmakers have access to WOW manuscripts, even though that’s likely of course. Maybe I missed it. Even if they have access to Martin, its not the same as having written material in front of you.

  92. By this point, not surprising. We had reached the stage where it was theoretically still possible for it to squeak in under the deadline, but pretty unlikely. I imagine this must feel like quite a defeat for GRRM, but as he says, it’s ultimately on him and nobody else.

  93. In all honesty, if he spent half as much time, and sheer volume of words as he has writing about some dumb ass sad puppy conspiracy regarding hugo awards….He probably would have been alot closer to his deadline.

  94. I’m not sure whether I am in a minority but I suspect I may be. I don’t mind in the least that the book won’t be out before the show. I watched all five series before I read the books, and I devoured all of them in a matter of weeks with relish. I enjoyed them immensely and intend to read them all again.
    There are so many additional characters in the books and many story arcs which are entirely different to those in the show, so there are still many aspects in the books that are new and attention grabbing. Film brings characters to life visually but nothing quite matches an awesome read for me.
    At least we know now rather than forever speculating and wondering and I’m sure the next book will be well worth the wait. Far better that GRRM takes the time he needs and we all end up with a good book. If he’s rushed and pressured then the tale may suffer for it.
    Roll on Season 6 🙂

  95. I’d rather wait and have him take the time to make it good than read a rushed version that was not well thought out. Do your thing George! Looking forward to that Theon chapter!

    I might add for those of you who do not understand creative mediums like painting, writing, music, etc… With a lot of people creativity doesn’t just happen instantly and pop up at will. With some artists inspiration takes time. Give the guy a break.

  96. Jeb,

    I have a lot of respect for George, and I really feel for him, but if this reduces the corrosive atmosphere that surrounded a lot of last season it’s fantastic news. Goodbye Elio and Linda.

    Oh my sweet, sweet summer child …

    If the book purists’ reactions concerning King Stannish-the-Mannish’s fate last season has told me anything, it’s that they’re going to be way, way worse when GoT ventures into the land of “post-books.”

    Expect lots of lots “No way GRRM would’ve written Characters E & F to do Plot Element X that way! Dumb and Dumber are hacks and/or fanfic writers hellbent on destroying GRRM’s sacred words!” type of posts from the book purists, especially as GoT starts to reveal major WoW / aDoS spoilers. The fact that they won’t know whether any new material is actually taken from WoW or is D&D’s invention won’t matter.

    Brace yourselves. It’s going to get really ugly once Season 6 rolls around.

  97. It is time HBO tease us again. I mean: they can give us a few pitcures or 30 seconds of video. But that’s the fan who speaks now.

  98. I get the idea of taking your time to get it right and all, but I do have to wonder…..how the heck did he get A Storm of Swords out so fast? It’s hands down the best of the series, in the opinion of just about everyone and it took him less than two years to write it. Not so sure what that says about the whole notion of taking his time will make it better

  99. GeekFurious: A lot of small-minded people agree with you.

    In my observation, so do a lot of large-minded people. I know a lot of former-SoI&F book fans, and Dragons did not win them back. At this point, most of them prefer the presentation on the show.

    Again, I thought (and still think) that Dragons was a big step back in the right direction. However, I fully concede that a lot of it was not up to the literary standards that GRRM reached in the first three books. And I also fully concede that I am emotionally conflating “better” with “well-done”: Dragons was uneven, with well-done and poorly-done, which made it a big step up from Crows, which was much more even (poorly-done and poorly-done). And I cannot fault others for demanding “well-done” throughout.

  100. Aryamad,

    “I’d rather wait and have him take the time to make it good than read a rushed version that was not well thought out”

    A Feast for Crows – 7 years

    A Storm of Swords – 22 Months

  101. Rygar,

    Haha. Needed a laugh after downer book news, thx. Now if I can just keep from getting SW spoiled for another 2 hours, everything will be looking up again.

  102. I am not surprised but a little disappointed. Probably Fall or Winter 2016 at the earliest.

    Today is my 29th birthday. I am doing a GoT marathon to celebrate. ? ?

  103. Josh L.,

    But it will be oh so funny to read all the frustrated Lindaaaaaaaaa-tweets.

    Regarding the people who call the producers “dumb&dumber” I really feel some Schadenfreude. They have complained so much about them and now their only chance to know the end of ASOIF will be the show version. That’s really a sweet revenge which will help me to accept the “But GRRM would have never written this” “But in the books it would have been so much better”-nonsense.

  104. Rygar:
    “There is still a chance he can finish the series before the show does.”

    Yes, if he hires Sanderson as ghost writer.

  105. I’ve been reading A Song of Ice and Fire for a long time, ever since only the first two books were on the shelves. Sadly, I think George RR Martin has lost his way. The quality of the last two books in the series was much lower than than the first three. I’ll keep reading the series just to see what happens, but my expectations for his works are much lower than they were in the past.

  106. If anything you should expect the his ASOIAF publishing trends to increase, coupled with age, it does seem like people should assume the books will not be finished. The best hope is actually that he delays continuing the books beyond WOW to put more time in with D&D to help build the end of the show. If the final book(s) is (are) many years away from a (never) publishing, then seasons 7 and 8 will rely more on direct contact with GRRM than the others required.

  107. Bending Knee,

    I so agree with this! I mean, it’s not that the show is spoiling the books that bothers me, it’s that they are doing a complete injustice to some character’s reasons for doing the things that they do that really ruins things for me. It’s not the end itself that makes the story so satisfying, it i the journey and if they are mucking that up, then it aint so great. The ending will not be satisfying. That is what worries me about theshow runners… Knowing the back story of the characters (Being a book reader) has allowed me to better appreciate show characters actions (even if the show had them take a diffetent route) because I know the real reasons behind them. Without that knowlege I would be much more upset about show Catelyn’s actions for example when she lets Jamie go free, or Stannis killing Shirreen. I would hate those characters! But because I had already read the books and some of the pre release Winds chapters I know that the characters choices are much more weighty than they were made to seem on the show- giving the characters more depth and allowing for more compassion for the characters. I feel more engaged with the show because of the books. If I am now to leave it all up to the show, some of the ridiculous leaps they have characters take without reasonable explanation ring false and take me out of the story. This is my fear from the show. Also, when they (the show writers create thier own material or lines for that matter the quality can really suffer. Example, the whole “You want a good girl but you need a bad pussy” bit or the random creation of Podrick the love master. Just adolescent level creations that lower the quality and truth of the characters GRRM created. Not to say that some of the show creations are not great additions (I loved the Tywin Arya scenes (because those actors made them amazing more than anything) and I enjoyed the Mark Addy as Rob Barratheon marriage reminiscing in season 1. I don’t recall that from the books. ANyway… I am rambling. My main point is, I think getting the story from the show first, while it can still be an enjoyable experience, will be reductive for sure.

  108. You people are delusional if you don’t believe GRRM is 100% involved in the direction and writing of the TV series. We are all heading in the same direction – be patient and enjoy the ride.

  109. Hmmm! With this announcement I wonder if George is now going to use the show to finish the books, well perhaps certain arcs. This does not bode well for even a pre- season 7 publishing date.

  110. Lyanna_Targaryen:
    Batiatus,

    Do you kiss your mother with that mouth? Try to be more imaginative with your words.

    He’s quoting Spartacus. His username is that of the character who frequently utters those words.

    I think we’ll certainly get to read TWOW someday, but at this rate ADOS will remain a dream.

  111. ghost of winterfell: I don’t recall reading any report which said the showmakers have access to WOW manuscripts, even though that’s likely of course.

    We have been told that B&W have had access to what has been written. Whether that is outline or manuscript has not been stated. However, GRRM does not strike me as the “outline” type, and he’s never mentioned really writing them.

    Josh L.: Brace yourselves. It’s going to get really ugly once Season 6 rolls around.

    Indeed, you are very correct (I think!). I suspect that what so many hardcore fans disliked about seeing Stannis die the way that he did was not so much love of Stannis: but that it falsified fan-conjecture about other things from the books. In particular,

    it falsified a lot of ideas concerning the Pink Letter, which tells us that Stannis met a similar fate.

    This leaves people with two choices: admit that their conjecture was wrong, or assume that B&W screwed up. I, myself, tossed in the towel on a particular conjecture I had related to this. I had thought that we would see three Starks in three camps of the final aspect of the Westeros Civil War. I had thought that a controversial note contradicting this idea was honest but mistaken. Now I concede that the note was honest and correct; and this also means that my conjecture is wrong. Whoops! Oh well, it was not a bad conjecture: or so I tell myself! 😀

    Once again, we saw the same thing in Harry Potter fandom. A lot of fans warned of dire final fates when “obviously” important characters and plotlines were cut, and how bad Kloves and Heymen would look when these characters and/or plotlines were important in the 7th book. That Rowling was working closely with Kloves & Heyman meant nothing: obviously they were ignoring her! And then…. none of the cut characters or plotlines were important in the end.

  112. I don’t care about the books already. I hope the tv-series will finish the story in 2018(at the latest). After that, when George is done we will informed about the other book characters’s fate who get cutted from the series.

    But look the cover. 😀 Big spoiler from book 6 is

    the Wall falling down by Joramun’s horn
  113. B: Without that knowlege I would be much more upset about show Catelyn’s actions for example when she lets Jamie go free

    I suspect that the general audience would disagree. What Catelyn does on the show is a failed attempt to keep Robb’s army unified without damaging their political position. What she does in the books is purely selfish. However, TV!Catelyn is much less shrewish than is Book!Catelyn, and has been since the very first episode.

  114. Vegodread,

    I don’t know what you mean by “100%”. The writers consult him for information on the books (I’d be interested to know how much of the written stuff for TWOW they’ve actually seen, though large chunks of it are by this point pretty much irrelevant due to changes already made). He tends not to be involved much in the active planning of the season, beyond that, and wasn’t even when he was writing an episode per year. He’s said as much before. Obviously the show is heading toward broadly the same ending, as the writers have also said many times.

  115. B:
    Bending Knee,

    I so agree with this! I mean, it’s not that the show is spoiling the books that bothers me, it’s that they are doing a complete injustice to some character’s reasons for doing the things that they do that really ruins things for me. It’s not the end itself that makes the story so satisfying, it i the journey and if they are mucking that up, then it aint so great. The ending will not be satisfying. That is what worries me about theshow runners…

    Easy solution: Live with it or stop watching the show. The end of the show will be the only end you will get. Or do you honestly believe that GRRM will finish ASOIF?

    If you do not trust the show runners than it will be really the best to not watch the show any longer.

    I have a friend who loves ASOIF, he has not yet watched the show and does not intend to do it. He knows that he hates adaptions of his favourite books as he can just not see show and book as different things. So he spares himself and his environment a lot frustration. Would be great if all book purists would be like him…..

  116. Sean C.: though large chunks of it are by this point pretty much irrelevant due to changes already made

    That depends on what you mean by “large chunks.” Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Arya and Bran are most of the story: indeed, they probably are over 75% of the story. And all of them are in the same positions as they were at the end of Dragons or will be early in Winter. The lesser protagonists (save for Cersei) are in different positions: but of those, only Sansa is apt to be important in the over-arching story. (The fact that GRRM basically omitted her from the Crows/Dragons story makes me suspect that she will not be important at the climax, at least in the books.) In a lot of ways, it’s like a cake made with all of the same ingredients and baked in the same way: but with different colors added to the frosting and different decorations placed on it in the end.

    EDIT: An odd alliterative mistake was undone!

  117. I’m glad he made the update. For some people writing one’s frustration and disappointment down, makes for a semblance of catharsis. I hope that’s the case for him too. He seems to have been really invested in finishing it in 2015. I hoped for that myself. So at least I wasn’t alone. But it was not to be and so it goes…

    Angela,

    Happy Birthday Angela!

    Valaquen,

    Yes, Batiatus was one of the best villain I’ve seen this decade in Television and DeKnight certainly didn’t mince words in his series!

    Clearly Lady Lyanna was not a fan of Spartacus LOL

  118. By the sword of the pale child Bakkalon, this is dark news!

    I LIKE NOT THIS NEWS! BRING ME SOME OTHER NEWS!

  119. Seeing GRRM write “King Stannis” in the context of butterflies and dragons has certainly gotten 2016 off to a good start.

    The Show has decided to give the bad of Jon to Stannis and the good of Stannis to Jon (ruining both for all but the groundlings). The Books will hopefully strive to be great literature that stands the test of time.

    I stopped watching after 5-8, and won’t be watching further. I believe that in a little less than a generation we will get the faithful adaptation of ASOIAF to the visual medium that we hoped GoT to be. Not that The Show is all bad, Hardhome was an awesome spectacle that is more in line with the Hollywood Action Fantasy background of the producers; but they can’t do literature, and the more they deviate from the source the more it shows.

    I just see GRRM writing better now that he has the deadline off his back.

  120. The Dragon Demands:
    By the sword of the pale child Bakkalon, this is dark news!

    You would say that, wouldn’t you. How will you ascertain the quality of season six if you cannot be sure whether things that you didn’t like are based on the book or not? You could do a Linda and just not review the show anymore —or edit a wiki about it, which in your case involves as much personal criticism as any review.

  121. Rygar,

    Hah reading glasses?! And I thought I was the only one with that problem! Devices get smaller, letters get even more so. I’m not good listening to doc though…

    A bit late but Happy New Year Ry. And the same to everyone else.

  122. Luka Nieto: You would say that. How will you ascertain the quality of season six if you cannot be sure whether things that you didn’t like are based on the book or not?

    ….because they condensed Season 5 so badly that half the subplots in Season 6 are actually holdovers from prior novels?

    But that was already becoming a problem what with Sansa advancing past her book subplots.

  123. The Dragon Demands: ….because they condensed Season 5 so badly that half the subplots in Season 6 are actually holdovers from prior novels?

    Oh, I see you maintain the fiction that they are correcting themselves, instead of this being the plan all along, even though, as they have said for years, they no longer adapt the books in big chunks —they mix it up in order to tell the story the best way they can in the show.

    What is the problem with adapting stuff from previous books in season six, exactly? Cannot you envision a more dynamic kind of adaptation? They couldn’t adapt the Greyjoy stuff in season five because it lacked a climax and no main character could be involved; now they can have both for season six. The same goes for Jaime and the Riverlands, or Brienne, or Sansa —if you didn’t want D&D to make stuff up in-between the book material, blame GRRM for not inventing enough material for them in the last few books.

    But there’s no use in arguing with you. You wanted them to adapt half of AFFC & ADWD in season five and the other half in season six, despite the fact that such a terrible decision would cut all the story arcs in half, leaving no single storyline with a climax or a natural progression. You only seem to care about plot in the most lifeless sense and about the fake background History, which may I remind you is there for worldbuilding purposes, to make the world feel real —it shouldn’t be the end of the world when the show doesn’t adhere to it exactly! You put all of that above story, characters and the pacing of it all, which would all be completely fucked up in the adaptation you suggest. Not surprising for a wiki nitpicker, but still.

  124. Stannis the Mannis:

    I believe that in a little less than a generation we will get the faithful adaptation of ASOIAF to the visual medium that we hoped GoT to be.

    Don’t know what you are smoking….But I want some of it.

  125. Luka Nieto: Oh, I see you maintain the fiction that they are correcting themselves, instead of this being the plan all along, even though, as they have said for years, they no longer adapt the books in big chunks —they mix it up in order to tell the story the best way they can in the show.

    1 – They always said they see it as adapting the whole story, and even Bran Stark was on his book 5 material by Season 4 (technically when most other characters were on book 3 material), so I don’t have too much of a problem with them being out of synch on some subplots.

    2 – Not accusingly, but they never had a firm plan for seasons 5 and 6 when they were in Seasons 1 or 2. I mean, at the time, they kept saying “we’ll be lucky and grateful to get renewed for another season”, so I think any plans they had for four to five seasons in advance were only tentative at the time. In flux. That isn’t blameworthy or anything, it’s just that I don’t think they physically could have had ANY “plan” for what Season 5 was going to be like “from the beginning”, that is, from Season 1. I mean, even they would say that.

    3 – Every character arc doesn’t always have a neat climax – what was Jaime’s climax at the end of Season 2? Or even Robb, really? They could have just ended the season with “Hardhome” and not needed to speed everything up to get to stopping points.

    4 – What I DO say is that they never wanted to make only seven seasons — despite the fact that they started saying this loudly and often in Season 4. We know this because we have this thing called “the internet” where we can see that in prior seasons, once they split book three across Season 3 and Season 4, they tentatively said they hoped for “seven to eight” seasons. Quite probably the actor contract negotiations led to fears, when Season 5 was filming, that they might only get seven seasons, in which case they seem to have drastically condensed many plotlines. The question from the beginning was “what if the TV show outpaces the novels?” — you don’t then just decide to burn through two novels in a single season, to the detriment of major subplots (you’re seriously saying they merged Sansa with the Boltons because they thought this was superior? Or due to time constraints? And Dorne….yeah….) I don’t blame D&D for this though, so much as I blame HBO for not having more faith in what was already a hit project. But I wish D&D would just be honest about “we faced production issues” – like Peter Jackson did earlier this year.

  126. In other news, it has been discovered that water is wet!

    Really though, as much as I’m looking forward to WoW, I’ve always maintained that I want it to be what GRRM is satisfied with.

  127. And so the world’s least surprising news becomes official.

    I feel for George. I really do. I think his passion for the world and the characters that he created shines through in that post, as it does in his novels. I believe him when he says that he wanted the novel to be published before Season 6, and that he worked hard to make that happen. His disappointment is palpable. I empathize with how hard this must be for him.

    Having said all of that … I’m perfectly content with this outcome. I was definitively in the camp of readers who either didn’t care if The Winds of Winter was published before Season 6, or hoped that it wouldn’t be. Furthermore, I’m all in favor of GRRM taking as long as he wants to write TWOW. He’s earned that right, and rushing to put out a substandard piece of work in the service of an arbitrary deadline will result in a product that pleases no one, least of all him. Personally, I don’t feel the need to read the next book before Season 6 arrives. I never have. In many respects, I would prefer not to.

    If Martin had used yesterday’s post to announce that he had completed TWOW, I would have happily placed a call to my local bookstore to pre-order my copy. But I’ll be just happy to make that call in six month, two years, or ten years. “Spoilers” – however you chose to define them – have never once compromised my enjoyment of any well-crafted story. But I can’t deny that the prospect of not knowing what’s coming next is thrilling. I’m glad that I’ll get to experience that sense of wondrous, open-minded anticipation for the first time since I started the series.

    Game of Thrones was my entry point into GRRM’s world of ice and fire. Back in the spring of 2010, I heard that HBO was making a new TV series set in a fantasy realm where “seasons could last decades, and winters a lifetime”. I looked at a few promotional stills, read a synopsis, and said “This looks amazing! I can’t wait to watch it!” When I heard that the show was based on a series of novels, I decided to pass them time until it premiered by reading them. I read the first three books before Season 1 premiered, read AFFC as Season 1 was airing, and then got to jump almost immediately into reading ADWD when it was published about a month after Season 1 ended. It was the perfect storm, and I was hooked. The books were key in cementing that love.

    Nevertheless, I have always been more emotionally invested in the HBO television program Game of Thrones than I am in Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire novels. Partly it’s because I tend to prefer a well-crafted film or TV series over a well-crafted novel. Partly it’s because my impatience with certain digressions, tropes, and developments (e.g. the rampant fake-out deaths and resurrections of characters) have unfortunately undermined my enjoyment of the last two novels. Most significantly, however, it’s the community that the show has fostered over the past several years on websites like Watchers on the Wall. The combination of being able to discuss this story and these characters with passionate, knowledgeable, and respectful fans AND also have a constant flow of casting reports and speculation to discuss in the offseason have definitively tipped the scales in the show’s favor … at least in my eyes. I can promise you that if Game of Thrones didn’t exist, I would not be devoting the same amount of time that I currently spend on WOTW to the ASOIAF Reddit or other book-centric sites picking through old tinfoil about which characters are secret Targaryens and whether or not Roose Bolton is an immortal, skin-stealing vampire from beyond the Wall. I would think about this world and these characters far less frequently.

    (I think it’s telling – if not entirely good-natured on my part – that the primary reason that I hoped TWOW might be published before Season 6 premiered is so the fates of Stannis Baratheon and his daughter Shireen can be confirmed for those book readers who are still in denial. More than anything, I want this absolutely asinine idea that Benioff and Weiss deliberately and maliciously sabotaged Stannis’s character and stole his grand and inevitable victory in the North from him just so they can give that glory to their special favorite Jon Snow to be staked through the heart. That particular line of nonsense drives me up a wall every time I see it circulated, and it can’t be debunked quickly enough for my liking).

    Onwards to Season 6! I believe it’s going to be fantastic, and I can’t wait to see how it unfolds! I’ll enjoy The Winds of Winter whenever Martin publishes it. I’m sure that it will be fantastic as well.

  128. Stannis the Mannis: I believe that in a little less than a generation we will get the faithful adaptation of ASOIAF to the visual medium that we hoped GoT to be.

    They have adapted the story faithfully: every season told the same story as did the corresponding book(s). The narrative details have been altered: but as the first two Harry Potter films show, if you regurgitate the narrative details of a novel onscreen, then you lose the story. Even decent novels are bad scripts, and the better a novel is, the worse of a script it is. They are fundamentally different ways of telling a story: and to make a literary Great White Shark work on land, you need a cinematic T. rex.

  129. The Dragon Demands: They could have just ended the season with “Hardhome” and not needed to speed everything up to get to stopping points.

    Multiprotagonist stories rely on parallel development among the main characters. So, yes, it was critical that they get to some analogous stopping points for each of the Big 4 or 5 characters.

    To that end, Hardhome provided no conclusion. We had to see Jon punished for his deed of compromise, just as Daeny gets punished for her deed of compromise and Arya gets punished for hers, at the end of the season. That’s where we see the price of ceasing to be a child and trying to be an adult.

  130. Kargaryen:
    You know the guy is terrible with dates/deadlines when he says he never thought the show would catch up with the books. At most by season 3 we all knew this would happen.

    You know, I wonder about this… did he truly ever think he’d be done first? If it takes him a whole day to write a blog post, what hope would 1500 manuscript pages have?

    I’m now keeping my fingers crossed for Xmas ’16, but I’m not holding my breath. I’ve been reading these books since they were first published in the ’90s (yes, I’m a member of that sad, sad club) and if the last one gets written, I’ll read it. A Dream of Publication.

    Some commenters upthread also refer to the quality of Feast & Dance. I am also curious if GRRM knows of the criticisms thereof. Not that it would matter, or change anything, but man, critical reflection is important in every profession.

    Thank goodness for the show.

  131. Wimsey: That depends on what you mean by “large chunks.”

    I mean what pretty much everybody means: large chunks of the narrative have been elided, condensed, or otherwise bypassed. The entire political story in the south is very different at this point; the Meereen plot is pretty different at this point too; the Northern plot (and Arya’s) have been changed the least, but even that looks to have been markedly altered in some respects with the addition/subtraction of various characters. That means that large pieces of the novel GRRM is writing will not be of much practical use to the writers of the show.

    Though this will in many respects be a less marked change than some people expect. Every season has relied less on the books than the previous one; fewer and fewer scenes have direct book counterparts, for instance, and book dialogue is used way less (compared to season 1, which in many spots was a cut-and-paste). The last few seasons have largely used the books as an outline and worked separately from there. So what they’re doing for season 6 is not so different from what they were doing in seasons 4 and 5.

    (The fact that GRRM basically omitted her from the Crows/Dragons story makes me suspect that she will not be important at the climax, at least in the books.)

    She’s in those books as much as Bran is (moreso, had her fourth chapter not been moved), and two chapters less than Arya. All of the Stark kids are not in those books much because they were the characters that, as GRRM admitted, the five-year-gap would work best for. Given the way the series has developed, I don’t think she’s as important as the other two, but to say she was “basically omitted” from the story is not true at all. And yes, everyone is aware by this point how you define “story”, but her story there is directly paralleled to theirs in numerous respects. Hence, why they’re all taken to places of comparative safety and studying their chosen skill under mentors of varying degrees of moral questionability and grappling with themes of suppressed identity (moreso in the sisters’ cases than Bran’s).

  132. you snow nothing:
    Some commenters upthread also refer to the quality of Feast & Dance. I am also curious if GRRM knows of the criticisms thereof.

    Obviously he does. I’m not sure how he couldn’t. He’s said he doesn’t spend a lot of time in fan forums, etc., but he does interact with fans a lot; and he has talked about, e..g, the Meereenese Blot essays, which he has praised in terms of their approach to the themes he was handling in Meereen.

  133. Josh L.:
    Jeb,

    Oh my sweet, sweet summer child …

    If the book purists’ reactions concerning King Stannish-the-Mannish’s fate last season has told me anything, it’s that they’re going to be way, way worse when GoT ventures into the land of “post-books.”

    Expect lots of lots “No way GRRM would’ve written Characters E & F to do Plot Element X that way!Dumb and Dumber are hacks and/or fanfic writers hellbent on destroying GRRM’s sacred words!” type of posts from the book purists, especially as GoT starts to reveal major WoW / aDoS spoilers.The fact that they won’t know whether any new material is actually taken from WoW or is D&D’s invention won’t matter.

    Brace yourselves.It’s going to get really ugly once Season 6 rolls around.

    I am a GoT fan; never read the books; so I don’t go to that site at all. No bracing needed on my part 🙂

  134. Is anyone actually surprised?

    In this time, we should be thankful for the show and they will finish the story way before George. I don’t want to wait another 10 years or so to finish this.

  135. Sean C.: Obviously he does.I’m not sure how he couldn’t.He’s said he doesn’t spend a lot of time in fan forums, etc., but he does interact with fans a lot; and he has talked about, e..g, the Meereenese Blot essays, which he has praised in terms of their approach to the themes he was handling in Meereen.

    I don’t know those essays. Do they praise his work? I know GRRM interacts with fans, but don’t they usually praise him too? Which fan would meet him and say, “Hey, I didn’t like your last two books.”? He interacts with Elio and Linda…are they his baseline for what he thinks his fandom is? Again, it doesn’t matter, I’m just curious.

  136. Jessica: Easy solution: Live with it or stop watching the show. The end of the show will be the only end you will get. Or do you honestly believe that GRRM will finish ASOIF?

    If you do not trust the show runners than it will be really the best to not watch the show any longer.

    I have a friend who loves ASOIF, he has not yet watched the show and does not intend to do it. He knows that he hates adaptions of his favourite books as he can just not see show and book as different things. So he spares himself and his environment a lot frustration. Would be great if all book purists would be like him…..

    This!! Yes!! Agree!!

  137. Wimsey: They are fundamentally different ways of telling a story: and to make a literary Great White Shark work on land, you need a cinematic T. rex.

    Im guessing you haven’t seen Sharknado.

    😛

  138. Sean C.: She’s in those books as much as Bran is (moreso, had her fourth chapter not been moved), and two chapters less than Arya.

    Bran and Arya both had distinct arcs of start, middle and end in Crows/Dragons. Sansa did not: she just had a bit of desultory narrative that ends with the promise of a start (Sansa deciding to put away her old self and embrace Alayne), but then no middle or end. And that is the huge difference: whereas Bran and Arya (and Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Theon and Jaime) all went from killing the boy/girl and becoming the man/woman, Sansa only got as far as realizing that she needed to kill the girl. Without the arc, and without paying any price for the evolution, Sansa was effectively absent from the story.

    Sean C.: The entire political story in the south is very different at this point

    That’s a plot, not a story. And as that plotline does not involve any of the major protagonists, it cannot be very important for the over-arching story. And, no, you cannot write: “You cannot know that unless you’ve read Spring.” At this point in the series, it is too late to make the minor protagonists that appear in that plotline relevant. They were not PoV characters (or even present at all) in Thrones (or Swords or Kings), and thus we cannot see the evolution from Thrones -> Spring. It is the evolution of the Big 5 or 6 over that span that will be the SoI&F story: and unless GRRM can retroactively insert Arriane or Asha or any of the other new protagonists into Thrones, it is simply too late for them to help create the SoI&F story.

    In the end, it will be Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Arya & Bran: and maybe Sansa. And at this point, it is too late to be anything other than those 5 or 6.

  139. Stannis the Mannis:

    The Show has decided to give the bad of Jon to Stannis and the good of Stannis to Jon (ruining both for all but the groundlings). The Books will hopefully strive to be great literature that stands the test of time.

    Sorry but I disagree. Jon has been and will be much more central to the story as a whole compared to Stannis. One is a POV character, the other is not. GRRM saying that Stannis is still alive in the books doesn’t mean he won’t kill him in the next book.

  140. Sean C.:So what they’re doing for season 6 is not so different from what they were doing in seasons 4 and 5.

    I would even say that they used the books as an outline for many storylines in S2 and S3 as well.

    Dany in S2, Robb in S2, KL in S3,…

  141. Jessica,

    Listen Calm down. I didn’t say I wouldn’t enjoy the show. In fact I said, it would “still be an enjoyable expereince” to watch the show. I should be able make a point about the diminished quality from book to show without someone telling me the generic, thoughtless response “don’t watch the show”. I obviously enjoy the show lest I would not be here. Come up with something more thought out than that, thank you.

  142. Wimsey:
    That’s a plot, not a story.And as that plotline does not involve any of the major protagonists, it cannot be very important for the over-arching story.

    Sigh. You’re free to constantly debate over other people’s usage of the word “story”, but whatever the case, the result is the same: large chunks of TWOW simply are not going to be of any use to the writers, because the plot is rather a large part of whatever’s happening in a chapter at a given space, and even many characters’ internal conflicts, etc. are very different. Whether this is good or bad, how much was necessary, etc are all values judgements, and thus in the eye of the beholder. Consider the only hard evidence we have of TWOW (albeit chapters that were largely transplanted over from the end of ADWD).

    Almost half of the chapters he has released on his website or read at conventions (or both) involve characters who either don’t exist in the show or are dead, and generally in omitted plots; then you’ve got a few Tyrion chapters where plot and characterization are revised; a Sansa chapter where the plot and characterization are totally different; a Theon chapter where the plot, at a minimum, will be different; and the singular exception of Mercy, which the writers have impressively managed to mine for what looks like no less than three separate parts of the show spread over three seasons. They clearly got good use out of Mercy (I’m not sure any other chapter has had such diverse usage, even).

    mau: I would even say that they used the books as an outline for many storylines in S2 and S3 as well.

    Dany in S2, Robb in S2, KL in S3,…

    Yes, certainly. I just cited 4 & 5 because they were the immediately preceding seasons, and the more advanced examples.

  143. B:
    Jessica,

    Listen Calm down. I didn’t say I wouldn’t enjoy the show. In fact I said, it would “still be an enjoyable expereince” to watch the show.I should be able make a point about the diminished quality from book to show without someone telling me the generic, thoughtless response “don’t watch the show”.I obviously enjoy the show lest I would not be here. Come up with something more thought out than that, thank you.

    Well, I am not the one who wrote a lengthy post with a lot of fears because the books are not written and fears that the show’s end and the show will not be satisfying….just saying ;-).

    There is psychological concept called Self-fulfilling prophecy. If you expect something to be bad or not satisfying, it will be bad and not satisfying. Sorry, if I misinterpreted your post but it sounds like you already expect the TV show to fail or at least are not very hopeful that it will be satisfying.

    So the only way to have some fun with watching the show, is to change the attitude and not to expect the worst of the TV show. If someone is not able to do this, it is better for himself not to show the TV show because he will not have a satisfying viewing experience (Exception: hatewatchers, but you do not sound like one to me).

  144. Rygar:
    I read A Game in 2000.Finished the first three books in less than 4 months.Read A Feast in 2005, and Dance when that came out, what 2011 or so???.I will read the books when published.I owe myself that at least, considering I have been on this 16 year and counting journey, but man my eyes are starting to get weak.Fucking reading glasses???Really, doc?????

    However, I must say, there is a silver lining:That HBO is consistent enough to give us a season every year around the same time.I know that in the next 2-3 years there will be an ending to their story. Yeah, its not GMs story, but it is close enough to wet my whistle for the time being.

    It’s torturous. The agony of the wait and the ecstasy of the climax.

    Oh and penis.

    Honestly, if GRRM continues to take so much time I think HBO will suffice. I mean, fuck, 6 years for one book? With no promise that it’ll be any better than the last two? And odds are there’ll be an 8th one as well. That’s twelve years from now. I could be a completely different person 12 years from now…

  145. Wimsey,

    Very good point. Thanks!

    Wimsey
    January 2, 2016 at 11:57 am
    B: Without that knowlege I would be much more upset about show Catelyn’s actions for example when she lets Jamie go free

    I suspect that the general audience would disagree. What Catelyn does on the show is a failed attempt to keep Robb’s army unified without damaging their political position. What she does in the books is purely selfish. However, TV!Catelyn is much less shrewish than is Book!Catelyn, and has been since the very first episode.

  146. Luka Nieto: Half or two thirds of TWOW being spoiled is a lot of spoilers. From the very first episode, the show will spoil the TWOW storylines (incomplete or not) of Jon, Dany and the Dothraki, Tyrion and Meereen, Bran, Cersei and King’s Landing (the fate of the threeway Lannister—Tyrells—Faith Militant struggle), Theon… and throughout the season, Arya, Jaime and Brienne, Sam, Littlefinger and Sansa and the Vale, whatever happens with the Night’s Watch and the wildlings… and pretty much everyone else.

    I disagree. Yes, quite a few bits will be spoiled, but not everything. If you’ve read the TWoW-chapters concernimg Meereen, you’ll know that it’s a completely different story. I’m expecting that nothing of Tyrion’s story in the first half of the book will correlate with what the first half of the show will tell us. The divergence is simply too big.

    The idea that Tyrion along with Varys, are handling a famine in Meereen in the show, while in the books, he is in the midst of battle in the service of a sellsword company, has not met Dany, nor has he talked his way into her court in the books seem like too large a rift to clear for me to believe that the shows take is from the books at all. Who in Dany’s court (without her consent!!!) will put a Lannister, picked up from the battleground, in that position? Barristan? Hell no. And concerning that we have the Yunkish noble returning, we might just get the Battle of Fire at the end of the shows version of Meereen. Which means very little spoilers for TWoW-chapters that haven’t already been released.

    Same with the Greyjoys and Sansa.

    The Kingsmoot is estimated to be midseason..

    and Yara is nowhere near Asha/Winds-story. Sansa’s story has been changed (or sped-up) so much it’s hardly an adaption.

    And than there’s Jaime,

    who’s still doing Feast past the halfway mark of the season, so while some Dance/Winds-conclusion/opening may be spoiled, I doubt we’ll see our golden boy reach even a quarter of his Winds-story.

    So that leaves us with Arya, Jon, Bran and Cersei. Bran will give us confirmation of a story that we all know already. Arya will get into spoiler territory, but not until

    after she gets to meet Izembaro, which likely isn’t the first episode, nor the third I pressume.

    Jon and Cersei and Dany are the only three that will get deep into spoilerterritory, and even than I am in the belief they’ll take KL slow..

    For instance, I assume her trial to be after Jaime leaves in episode 6/7

    ..

  147. Mihnea:
    Wimsey,

    And…With shame I admit that Victarion was my guilty pleasure… Found his chapters funny and Maqorro was interesting…

    Nah, I agree, I found some aspects of ol Vic and gang pretty interesting. Mind you, I still hold out the hope that

    Jorah will take on the bit about the red priest ‘healing’ his hand/arm, thus becoming Joractarionnington since he’s already absorbed Connington’s bit. If we don’t actually get Victarion that is, which is seeming less likely. Sigh.

    You know, I’m excited that after 5 seasons I will now know shit all in many regards as to what will happen, not having the WoW out. Granted, there’s still a lot of book material covered in S6, but…. I didn’t expect it to come out, and I’ve never believed Spring would make it by the end of the series, so it’s rather lovely to be maddeningly flummoxed and know I’ll be jumping around wondering what will be what where. 🙂

  148. Disappointing, but not surprising. And I wouldn’t be surprised if Winds still isn’t out by Season 7 either. And the final book? Forgetaboutit!

    Seriously, Georgie boy has lost his mojo methinks. It’s on D&D to finish this story now.

  149. Zones Quest,

    Knowing Literature 101 is far from being a “know it all.” (If you are not a Yank, “101” to denote basic knowledge: we use that to number the most basic university courses that non-majors take to fullfill breadth requrements; I seem to recall that different labels are used elsewhere.)

    To this end, stories have necessary structures, just as do song or sculpture or any other form of art. And the biggest part of the structure of a story is the evolution of the protagonist(s) from start to end. And that means that if a character is not present from start to end, then that character cannot create the story. This is not some “trope” that GRRM can somehow break, but really almost a truism. Remember, once a story starts, then it immediately starts to constrain what it can do: that is, by building some bridges, it burns many others. And the possibilty of new PoV characters contributing much to the over-arching story is a set of bridges that was burned early.

  150. I’m looking forward to watching the upcoming season without really knowing what’s going to happen. Sure, there will be things from already published material in there, but in terms of big events, I’ll be pretty much in the dark. It should be fun. 🙂

  151. Reading a certain persons twitter.(i’m sick and stuck at home alone, while the wife went shopping, so forgive me)

    And it’s a melt-down… To be completly honest, it’s quite satisfactory too watch.

  152. Ser Oromis Locke,

    Even if you say it’s true (and I don’t think it is -I believe Luka Nieto to be mostly right), you must admit that Dany, Jon and Cersei (and their associated locations) are three of the most important story/plotlines in the show.

  153. Ser Oromis Locke,

    From the sound of Isaac’s recent interview, in some respects I think Bran’s stuff this season will be the most spoiler-filled. Dany’s plot, from the spoilers we’ve gotten, seems to be proceeding largely along the lines people had already guessed. There’s some notable new stuff in Jon’s story, from the looks of it, but again, much of it well within the realm of what people have been speculating.

    In Bran’s case we’re getting some stuff readers already know, albeit in more confirmatory detail, presumably — but Isaac also talked about Bran seeing more of his own future role, etc., and this whole area is something we have almost no context for speculating about based on the published material to date. If you look at fan fiction, for instance, almost none of them address the War for the Dawn in any detail, simply because we have so little to go on in terms of who the Others are, what they want, what specific roles many characters will play, beyond the broadest notions of who the heroes are.

  154. The Dragon Demands,

    I used to edit GoT wiki back in 2011/2012 but I’m afraid to do it anymore mainly because of your really harsh attitude. I made a complaint about Tysha sub-article on “The Children” page and you immediately threatened to temporary ban me. That article is waaay too subjective for the wiki, not to mention the length of it and citing Elio & Linda. Yes, you wanted to inform the non-book readers about the change, but it seemed to me that you wanted to say “Wait! You should not enjoy that scene. Just look how bad the show is!”

    Dedicating the whole section to Sand Snakes fight… Why exactly? Because the scene was bad? Yes, it was bad but is that really relevant?

    And the comment you made about Mother’s Mercy? “I think what I’ll do is, I’ll pretend I’m one of those deaf-mutes.” You are calling us who love TV show deaf-mutes? That’s perfect example of book reader’s arrogance which I encoutnered several times on A Forum of Ice and Fire

    And the criticism about season 5 winning the emmy awards is just disgusting. Does that really belong there? On the site, dedicated to TV series, which is supposed to be objective, you practicly wrote that GoT did not deserve those awards. And who are you exactly to decide that for all of us?

    It saddens me to see that GoT wiki is turning into another westeros.org site. Almost every “notes” section is filled with your criticism and subjecive language, implying that most of the changes are wrong… Why exactly do we have “Differences from the books” pages (which were by the way my creation at first) if you describe almost every difference in the notes section?

    The westeros.org forums ruined my love for the books and I am ashamed to have ever been part of that fandom. The arrogance, the insults, the feeling of superiority… And to think you quote Elio and Linda (especially Linda who’s extremely insulting to non-book readers, the producers and even the actors) on the site which is meant for TV series… Several AFOIAF users (Annara Snow, Borodin, Toth, JonCon’s Redbeard, Pyat Daenerys…) forced me not only to leave westeros.org, but to block the page on my browser, so I could never encounter it when searching. And your attitude on GoT WIKI might force me to do the same.

  155. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
    I’m looking forward to watching the upcoming season without really knowing what’s going to happen.Sure, there will be things from already published material in there, but in terms of big events, I’ll be pretty much in the dark.It should be fun.

    It is fun!! I never read the books, so I absolutely did not know what is coming next. I am actually more in the know about season 6 than any previous seasons by coming here. And I am still hyped and count the days until April. It will be awesome. I always wondered if the knowledge from the books somehow lessens the enjoyment of watching the show. This year we are all in it together, so kick back, relax and enjoy the ride.

  156. Sean C.,

    I think some here are believing that the show will not be as spoiler free as some fear just because we can more or less guess how the storyline will continue. This is partly true, of course, but only for the early episodes of the season, really. We can’t really guess what will happen at the end of the season, how each storyline is going to end.

    As for believing that the differences between show and books mean that we won’t really get spoilered, think about this: imagine that book 5 hasn’t been published yet, and season 5 is released. Even with all the deviations, do you think season 5 spoils book 5?

  157. Ghost NY hangover:
    Glad to hear, he should never be rushed, I would rather wait the time for a masterpiece that stands the test of time over generations than some sub-standard rushed piece of literature

    ADWD has already made sure that’s never going to happen. I like your spirit though.

  158. oier,

    I had a hard time parsing some of what you’re saying, but as far as spoilers go, there are gradations. Obviously anything that confirms a common speculation is a spoiler, but it feels to me like less of one than something that fills in information we couldn’t really make much of a guess toward. The show by this point will broadly spoil character and plot endings; the specifics are going to be pretty different, as in many cases they already are. Certainly, reading AFFC and ADWD after watching Season 5 would be a markedly different experience from reading AGOT after watching Season 1.

  159. you snow nothing: Which fan would meet him and say, “Hey, I didn’t like your last two books.”?

    Me. I am (almost) willing to stand in line for hours to have GM sign my copy of “Waiting for Dragons: an Unauthorized Critical Response”. I wouldn’t have to say a word.

  160. Jaqen H’ghar is actually Rhaegar, and this will probably be revealed at the end of 6×10, after a few flashbacks show what Rhaegar looked like during the war. He is the “Song” (being a fairytale harp-playing Tolkienesque prince) from the title. The “Ice” and “Fire” are Jon and Dany. There’s your 3 heads of the dragon.

    The proof? The last 2 lines of A Song of Ice and Fire Book 4. A likeable character called Sam mistrusts a very strange character when they first meet, just like at Bree with Aragorn. The stranger is named “Pate”, like the “fairy-tale character” in the world’s folklore. But that word was also used by Barliman Butterbur in the tenth chapter of LOTR, where Aragorn reveals himself.

    “The story of that Mr Bilbo’s going off has been heard before tonight in Bree. Even our Nob has been doing some guessing in his slow pate; and there are others in Bree quicker in the uptake than he is.”

    I’ve been saying this for a while, but don’t take my word for it, just look at all the times Martin has mentioned Aragorn in interviews, introductions and comparisons. Look at how much he dislikes that trope. Then look at the huge amount of tropes he has already brought into Westeros and deconstructed. Look at just how often in Books 4 and 5 a dead character is brought up (Rhaegar) and his mystery analysed.

    R+L=J may be true – it doesn’t matter. It is misdirection and always has been.

  161. Newbietothegame,

    While I’m pretty good at letting go of how things happen in the books while watching the show (I have Peter Jackson’s work on LOTR to thank for that), there was always the inevitable voice in my head saying, “well, but in the books…” I’ll be glad not to have that voice in my head for season 6. I think I’ll really enjoy being completely surprised. 🙂

  162. mau,

    iswintercoming.COM dammit! Dot COM!

    When I unearth your user at iswintercoming, Imma warning point you so hard yo momma gonna feel it.

  163. Sean C.,

    This is George’s world – I’m positive legal documents had to have been signed where he would be a close consultant. Do you really believe HBO would have begun this epic journey without the knowledge that they (D&D) would have close access to every and all source materiel. Where taking about billions, yes billions in the long run, of dollars here, it would be criminal if there were no safeguards. I’m sure they have also anticipated the possibility that George will never complete the books for whatever reason. They know exactly how this epic ends. There is probably a final manuscript in a vault somewhere. It’s called insurance.

    For those who are upset about the delay in the book…please do us all a favor and not watch season 6 until after the book comes out and you have read it. This is not North Korea, you have a choice.

  164. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    I, too, think that S6 will be fun. I have always found myself comparing certain scenes/dialogue from the show with the books. It isn’t an ideal way to experience the show and I’m glad that – for the most part – I will not be able to do that anymore.

    And while I am disappointed about this news, I think that there are great things coming in S6. The anticipation for some of these scenes will make for exciting Sunday evenings and for great discussion here.

  165. Vegodread,

    I have no idea what you’re getting at there. I’m sure that the contract gives HBO access to whatever he’s got finished at the moment, and to his consultation on what isn’t written, which he has done extensively (they had a week-long summit a few years ago, for instance). I expect the writers could phone him up and ask for more details on a given point at any time, if they want to (whether they do that, who can say?). That’s his level of involvement at this point, now that he’s not writing an episode anymore.

  166. The show went through the material in the books so fast that I’m not at all worried about the delay of the novel. The books are so much more alive, to me at least, and when I watch the show I’m disappointed sometimes in the omissions of some of my favorite emotional moments. I know that when I read TWOW, the (dumbed down) material of the show will be given much more value. Fleshed out, I guess.

    I’m sure we all feel that way

  167. Ross,

    Whaddya mean ‘he used to work in television’? He has three shows in development. Plus he put out two books this year related to asoiaf, and an edited volume also I believe. Runs a small cinema, and is opening a multi-studio space for artists. He employs a number of people and gives them a livelihood. Plus making HBO and Tor millions of bucks. Not bad for a guy you say should be ‘more professional’.

  168. I watch the Show and read the books, and I love them both dearly. George will work at his own pace and it will be finished when its finished, i’ll still be here waiting to read it when its done. right now i’m on high alert for a trailer for Season 6 that could Drop at any Day, second, minute, or week XD sadly i’m always away or doing something when the trailers drop……. Not this Time!!!

  169. Luka Nieto:
    Matthew The Dragon knight,

    That’s the spirit. Hopefully we’ll get a trailer this month! Isn’t it exciting?

    It is exciting, especially knowing what they have planned for season 6. keeping up with all the filming information post season 5 kept me going. There’s so much to look forward to, not much longer now my friends. reading all the comments is pretty fun XD

  170. 4eyedraven:
    Ross,

    Whaddya mean ‘he used to work in television’? He has three shows in development. Plus he put out two books this year related to asoiaf, and an edited volume also I believe. Runs a small cinema, and is opening a multi-studio space for artists. He employs a number of people and gives them a livelihood. Plus making HBO and Tor millions of bucks. Not bad for a guy you say should be ‘more professional’.

    Balls to that. His extracurriculars do not make him a professional. They make him a businessman. Whether or not GURM Inc. conducts himself in a professional manner is debatable. Very very debatable.

  171. Matthew The Dragon knight,

    Exactly. It’s all part of the fun. Hopefully, before and after the trailer is released, we’ll also get a few EW exclusives by James Hibberd along the way, like the Bran photo and the interview with the actor.

  172. Lord Parramandas: “I think what I’ll do is, I’ll pretend I’m one of those deaf-mutes.” You are calling us who love TV show deaf-mutes?

    (that’s a quote from Catcher in the Rye about ennui, actually)

    GoTWiki can and does compare the TV show to the books: by definition, a TV adaptation does not exist in isolation from its source material.

    I’m confused: that’s what the private wikia sites have always been like. if you only want a basic episode recap and some casting info….why not use the main Wikipedia.org pages?

  173. Sean C.,

    This is a business, would you do business this way? Even though we are not specifically told, you better believe GRRM is deeply involved in the TV series – HBO wouldn’t have it any other way. For him not to be is completely ridiculous and makes no sense at all. No problem though, believe what you will. I am excited and can’t wait for season 6.

  174. Laura,

    Given that the Manderly-esque nobleman looks to be pretty much a one-scene character, he may not think that’s much akin to Manderly in the books. Or it may not have made as much of an impression on him on reading the scripts. Or perhaps he just didn’t want to spoil his inclusion in the new season, albeit in a small role?

    Vegodread,

    There’s a bit of a limit on how involved he can be without ever setting foot near the production, as he hasn’t this year (or last, I believe). Even when he was writing an episode a year, the showrunners drew up the blueprint and assigned him an episode to write. Now they’ve gotten his notes and interviews to help prepare their blueprint, in lieu of the books he has yet to write.

    I’m not sure why HBO would insist on him being involved beyond that (if they even can), if the showrunners feel they can handle it themselves, much as they have been all along. Like I said, I’m sure the writers can call him up and ask for some clarification on any given point if they want to.

  175. Gucci Bootlips:
    The show went through the material in the books so fast that I’m not at all worried about the delay of the novel. The books are so much more alive, to me at least, and when I watch the show I’m disappointed sometimes in the omissions of some of my favorite emotional moments. I know that when I read TWOW, the (dumbed down) material of the show will be given much more value. Fleshed out, I guess.

    I’m sure we all feel that way

    Nope, I don’t. So don’t speak for all. You may speak for the book purists. But then again, you may be on the wrong site. Did you lose your way?
    10 episodes per season can only tell so much of a novel. So suck it up, buttercup.

  176. Season 5 gave us a lot of spoilers from book 6.

    Stannis’s death, Barristan’s death, Mance’s (eventual) death, Shireen’s death, Myrcella’s death(but her death was sure anyway because of Maggy’s prophecy, and so Tommen’s)

    And the news too. For example a few of that:

    Jon’s resurrection and his victory at Winterfell, Petyr goes to the North with the army of the Vale(he wanted to give the North to Sansa in the books too), Dany power demonstration over the khalasaar
  177. Luka Nieto:
    Matthew The Dragon knight,

    Exactly. It’s all part of the fun. Hopefully,before and after the trailer is released, we’ll also get a few EW exclusives by James Hibberd along the way, like the Bran photo and the interview with the actor.

    I was also hoping for some new interviews talking about season 6 or the characters, those are always a ton of fun to read. Also since The teaser poster for Season 6 of jon snow came out on November 23rd, and the Teaser Trailer for season 6 came out on the 3rd, i’m under The belief they might Drop the Season 6 trailer on the 26th if not earlier maybe even the 6th. just a guess from what i’m putting together.

  178. Matthew The Dragon knight:
    I watch the Show and read the books, and I love them both dearly. George will work at his own pace and it will be finished when its finished, i’ll still be here waiting to read it when its done. right now i’m on high alert for a trailer for Season 6 that could Drop at any Day, second, minute, or week XD sadly i’m always away or doing something when the trailers drop……. Not this Time!!!

    I want a trailer now.

  179. Sean C.,

    I was surprised he wrote Ser Wyman Manderly as not appearing when he could have not since S6 is not yet out and leave it as a mystery, but put that down anyway, and didn’t say anything about LS, not that it would matter as I have no idea how would they even introduce her at this point.

    Yep, I said it! It’s on damn topic and I said it!

    Hodor:
    Rygar,
    it is the GRRM story you idiot.

    Some call writing a story after a TV show, novelization. While clearly the original story idea is Martin’s, the show might veer off and do its own thing disregarding storylines outlined from the author himself. We have no real way of knowing that. On top of the fact that Martin himself tries so hard to make sure they are different entities (see his remarks where he keeps mentioning some characters are alive in the books when they are no longer in the show).

    So Ry’s statement is not so far off, even though I still disagree and think it is Martin’s first!

    Nice job with the name-calling. Hope it is worth looking like a intolerant Martin fan. Unless it was sarcasm. I don’t always get that over the net.

  180. mau,

    True enough. Maybe he’s just inconsistent. Or maybe that minor part has a different name, whatever its seeming similarities.

  181. The Dragon Demands,

    I have no problems with comparing the show to the books. Like I said, I was the one who started writing the “Differences” page in the first place and I really objected, when Gonzalo84 tried to delete it and place the differences under the episodes. It is the writing style that bothers me. On the other Wikia sites that I am following (The Walking Dead, Harry Potter, The X-Files), the tone is not nearly as subjective as on this Wikia.

    For example, I would not mind describing the Tysha difference on Wikia, but writing such a long article about it and almost explicitly stating, how the producers made a terrible mistake is simply not right. That’s your perspective. You do not present the whole fandom of GoT even though you are an administrator. I was bothered by Tysha omission as well, but from TV perspective, Tyrion’s storyline actually made sense.

    And what was that about Emmy awards? How could you possibly believe this belongs to Wikia site? I was glad that they won all these awards and I’m sure many others are glad as well. But on the Wikia, there are strong implications that they didn’t deserve those awards at all… Again, your perspective.

    Citing Elio and Linda is completely unnecessary. Their criticism is not relevant because they are book purists who have almost no respect for the TV show. Well, Elio is actually pretty decent with his ratings (the lowest he gave was 6/10) but Linda… I’m glad that you are not citing The Cultural Vacuum (“Season 5 was loosely based on three page summary of AFFC and ADWD…”)

    To conclude, the Wikia is mostly about how YOU feel about TV series and is filled with your subjective criticism even though many would disagree. With all your articles, you are apparently trying to present, that GoT is not a great show. And because of your harsh attitude, I am afraid to edit it.

  182. Lord Parramandas,

    I couldn’t agree more.

    Anyway, I started reading the books after I watched S2, but I always figured at the pace George was writing that the show would eventually pass him. While yes it’s sad, I don’t see the point in waiting just to not be spoiled. I think it will be a more entertaining experience this time around, especially with the story lines that are moving ahead. I’ve always enjoyed the show as much as the books and I could see S6 potentially being one of the best seasons.

  183. Just woken up and logged on to find this had been announced overnight. A big part of me is not surprised, butI must admit I’m very disappointed. I’m scared that, now it will not be published by April, we probably won’t see Winds for years. Thank goodness for the show.

  184. Disappointed to say the least. I would have liked to hear GRRM’s story from him first. But not surprised. Oh well.

    Watching the show will be a new & different (breathless) experience this year 🙂

    I’m sure it’s hard for some readers of this site to imagine but there are a number of us who enjoy both the books and the show, without the obnoxiousness of being a “purist” of either.

  185. Sean C.,
    “If you look at fan fiction, for instance, almost none of them address the War for the Dawn in any detail, simply because we have so little to go on in terms of who the Others are, what they want, what specific roles many characters will play, beyond the broadest notions of who the heroes are.”

    You know, that’s a fascinating point. At some level, I think that there are basically only three options to consider: a. the final boss are the White Walkers; b. the final boss is Rhllor, and the WW are just misunderstood; c. the final boss are both the Fire and Ice forces trying to meddle with humanity (aka the Babylon 5 variant). (Personally, I think it will fall to c..) But you’re right, we have remarkably little to go on – I hope that as we near the ending, these things will be made clear by the show. S7, maybe, and whatever is hidden in Oldtown.

  186. Lord Parramandas:

    “I think what I’ll do is, I’ll pretend I’m one of those deaf-mutes.”

    Seems this GoT wiki person is quite a character, right? Though I suppose I should applaud that Ghost in the Shell reference. Now that’s a very cool anime.

    EDIT: Oh, apparently it’s originally from somewhere else. Silly me!

  187. Looking at GRRM’s previous publication pattern, it seems obvious he doesn’t need more time to write. He needs more motivation and inspiration. When you have those things, the words fly from your mouth (if you dictate) or your fingers (if you type or write longhand.) More time isn’t going to perfect the book.

    That being said, I’d be much angrier about this news if HBO had agreed to delay the series in order to give Martin more time to finish as some had suggested. I want resolution from this saga. And I’ll take whatever resolution I can get.

    I’m not so enamoured of the books that I believe that is the only way to truly resolve the series. I mean, there are certain aspects of the books that were dull, painful reads. I don’t care about the resolution for those characters. The show is managing to encompass almost everyone in the story who matters to me, and still include a few I’d like to eliminate (waves dismissively at Meereen).

    I’m going to enjoy watching the show as fresh and Unsullied. This is going to be fun.

  188. I’ve long had a sneaking suspicion that GRRM does not want to finish the books, because he doesn’t know how to tie up all the loose ends he’s created in a satisfying way. Starting a story and adding layer upon layer to it is fun for a writer, pulling it all together into a good conclusion not so much. (ahem ahem JJ Abrams ahem) Add to that the fact that the adulation he gets from fans will turn to contempt if they don’t like how the story ends, and he has every reason to delay.

  189. crimethink,

    It’s actually the opposite. He’s on record saying that once he knows how things end, he loses interest.

    The ending of the story has been outlined in his head to some extent for however many years now. He “just” needs to write it out. And he probably isn’t really interested in that because the thrill of novelty is gone.

    I can totally sympathise because I’m the same way. “What do you mean, I have to *write words* to complete my ph.d.?! I created a presentation in PowerPoint! All the ideas are already there!” Lol.

  190. Sean C.: A lot of them, judging by what I’ve seen of fandom.

    That’s unbelievably sad. OTOH, I’ve only been a part of the online fandom for a short time, so what do I know? I started out at westeros.org, but left after a few weeks. Seemed toxic. Randomly found this site; thankfully most people seem civil, even when disagreeing.

  191. I’m actually totally okay with this. I look forward to watching a season without a ton of book comparisons (from either myself or others).

  192. you snow nothing,

    It’s not really specific to this fandom. Any fan convention will invariably include the airing of grievances, and in any event, no author totally ignores the reaction to the book; even skimming the reviews on Amazon.com, for instance, would acquaint a person with complaints.

  193. Just look at the number of POVs he now has :

    Daenerys, Tyrion, Bran, Sansa, Arya, Theon, Davos, Jaime, Samwell, Cersei, Brienne, Arianne, Victarion, Aeron, Asha, Areo, Barristan, Jon Connington, Melisandre

    19 POVs.. and most of them scattered through continents, meaning that there’s no way to combine them. There’s no way he will be able to tell the stories of all these characters in a single book… This is the AFFC/ADWD problem all over again.

    I really don’t think TWOW will be published any time soon (if ever).

  194. Ser Oromis Locke,

    The plot-points will be a bit different, but I expect that the story will be the same. At this point, it looks like it is going to be a story about getting people who do not want to heed you to do so. It’s pretty easy to see how (in both book and series) Tyrion will be feeding this sort of thing as he attempts to take charge in Meereen while waiting for Daeny to return.

    Lord Parramandas,

    This is pretty much on the mark. Really, you hit a key nail on the head: if you are a fan of the “world building” of a book series (be it SoI&F, Tolkien’s, Harry Potter, Dune or whatever), then you are not going to like adaptations because adapters are trying to adapt the story to a different medium, not the history. Being a fan of world-building is fine – there is no “right” or “wrong” reason to like something – but world-building fans need to accept that they are in a minority when it comes to general readership/viewership AND that an adaptation focusing on communicating the worlds of Martin/Tolkien/Rowling/Herbert/Smith/etc. simply is not going to have much of a market.

    Sean C.: It’s not really specific to this fandom.

    heh, not even close! You see the same things in the Doctor Who, Star Trek, Star Wars, Harry Potter, Tolkien, etc., etc., fandoms. For shows/films, you always get that contingent that wants “continuity”: they want the past recycled over and over. For books -> films, you get the ones that want the books used as scripts. And for both, you get fans that want the new shows/books to: 1) be like the old ones (because that is what got them hooked); and, 2) have events turn out in particular ways (River Song will be X; Leia will wind up with Luke; Hermione will wind up with Harry; Klingons will be shown to have grown those funky foreheads recently; etc., etc.)

    Musical acts get the same thing: there is always a big core of fans that wants them to replicate the old stuff. And if the new stuff is actually an improvement (as often is the case for the major bands that get better early in their careers), then the fans complain that they’ve actually “sold out” and lament that they are not making the “good” stuff that often really is not as good musically as the new stuff.

    Ultimately, all commercial artists should be worried about making new fans at all times, not about keeping the old ones. In some ways, it’s a bad sign if you keep the same fans all the way through: it indicates a lack of evolution.

  195. It’s a shame, he doesn’t seem to help himself, since he’s known he’s had this issue for decades and this is his magnum opus. I mean JK Rowling locked herself up in a big country house in Scotland to be in a good writing environment. He could easily afford a professional coach to motivate him to write. Just seems a bit self destructive. I have the same issue but if it’s a uni deadline I’ll force myself to sit on the floor and write so I can’t get distracted. Silly GRRM.

  196. It would be great if he could find a way to remove this pressure from his mind, because as he said in the blog post, it makes him like writing less and question his decisions, and it can’t be ignored that aFfC and aDwD were of a lower quality than his previous, quickly-written works.

  197. I for one appreciate the honesty of GRRM’s post. Clearly, he is disappointed.

    I really don’t see a major problem in having WOW released after season 6. I just want to add that even if the book were to be released prior to season 6 you most certainly run into the problem in season 7 anyhow as it is a certainty that the series will be finished before the final book.

  198. LNJ:
    I for one appreciate the honesty of GRRM’s post.Clearly, he is disappointed.

    I really don’t see a major problem in having WOW released after season 6.I just want to add that even if the book were to be released prior to season 6 you most certainly run into the problem in season 7 anyhow as it is a certainty that the series will be finished before the final book.

    If GM wants to score points with disappointed fans, he needs to apologize for getting pissy with folks who worried about his travel and side projects by whining, “Is it OK if I take a leak once in a while?”

    Martin takes too many potty breaks confirmed.

  199. Cumsprite: If GM wants to score points with disappointed fans, he needs to apologize for getting pissy with folks who worried about his travel and side projects by whining, “Is it OK if I take a leak once in a while?”

    Martin takes too many potty breaks confirmed.

    Apologize ? Fuck his so called self entitled fans.

  200. VegodreadThis is not North Korea, you have a choice.

    Huh, I did not know that Thrones was mandatory viewing in North Korea. Does Glorious Leader pirate it for everyone? (And did they edit it so that Tywin Lannister wins in the end?)

  201. 1) The books are great.

    2) The show is great.

    3) A lot of the frustration I hear about the show is from book fans who seem upset that the show is telling the story first.

    4) The show diverged from the books last season, but if you notice, most of the key characters found their way to the same point in the story as the books. Books 4 & 5 were almost unfilmable so I thought they did a great job with what they were given.

    5) People saying the show is dumbed down is a joke. This is one of the most complex shows in television history.

    6) I believe GRRM’s problems are: 1) He isn’t motivated enough to write. 2) The story got out of control for him. Too many POV characters and he has no real good way to bring the story back in.

    I honestly fell bad for GRRM. But the show is still amazing….

  202. Mormont:
    It’s a shame, he doesn’t seem to help himself, since he’s known he’s had this issue for decades and this is his magnum opus. I mean JK Rowling locked herself up in a big country house in Scotland to be in a good writing environment. He could easily afford a professional coach to motivate him to write. Just seems a bit self destructive. I have the same issue but if it’s a uni deadline I’ll force myself to sit on the floor and write so I can’t get distracted. Silly GRRM.

    JK has always seemed to appreciate her fans a lot more then GRRM has. GRRM is the better writer, JK is better to her fanbase.

  203. Wimsey:

    Ultimately, all commercial artists should be worried about making new fans at all times, not about keeping the old ones.In some ways, it’s a bad sign if you keep the same fans all the way through: it indicates a lack of evolution.

    Wouldn’t that apply to your own dislike of the last two books, which is the sort of fan complaint that was under discussion (more specifically, the fans who tell him that when they meet him)?

  204. Reading GRRM’s Lost A Blog was as heartbreaking as reading ASOIAF. The one thing I got out of it was the Quentyn Martell mention…and the book cover.

  205. Rygritte:
    Reading GRRM’s Lost A Blog was as heartbreaking as reading ASOIAF. The one thing I got out of it was the Quentyn Martell mention…and the book cover.

    Life imitates art….

  206. Dragonslayer: Funny thing, most Hugo organizer aren’t happy about the puppys either (but this really isn’t the right place to discuss this.

    This is not about the Puppies, this is about GRRM being as self-entitled about the Hugos as some fans about his writing speed.

  207. At least we can look forward to this:

    Wild Cards is in my blood, and I plan to continue with those books as long as someone will keep buying them.

  208. So mau…

    About our bet that TWOW will be out before 2018. Are you ready to concede? Or will I have to nag you later this year when the publication day is annouced?

    I’ll accept a good bottle of red wine as the prize. Thanks.

  209. Hey everyone!

    Im a journalism student studying social media communities and I wanted to ask a few research questions from this community.

    Why do you keep returning to the Watchers on the Wall?
    Do you feel a part of the community here?
    What is so engaging about this site?

    Would appreciate any response!

    Thanks Watchers!

  210. Matthew The Dragon knight: Apologize ? Fuck his so called self entitled fans.

    Through his petulance, Martin created an atmosphere where people who innocently (and not so innocently, to be honest) speculated about his commitment to the series found themselves on the end of “Martin is not your bitch” potshots, were called entitled crybabies and often found themselves on the receiving end of westeros.org bans. Martin created the shadow fandom and, it turns out, the “detractors” were right all along.

  211. So here’s the thing for me. If we get a release date before the show airs I’m going to put off watching it until the book is out. So would they delay the announcement until after the series airs?

    Who am I kidding. I am watching the show regardless

  212. Cumsprite: Through his petulance, Martin created an atmosphere where people who innocently (and not so innocently, to be honest) speculated about his commitment to the series found themselves on the end of “Martin is not your bitch” potshots, were called entitled crybabies and often found themselves on the receiving end of westeros.org bans. Martin created the shadow fandom and, it turns out, the “detractors” were right all along.

    The book purist like at westeros.org are the very worst I have seen of any major pop cultural fanbase.

  213. Esmeralda,

    Why do you keep returning to the Watchers on the Wall? I appreciate the reliability of the information in the articles, and I enjoy the interaction with fellow fans.

    Do you feel a part of the community here? I’d say so, yes.

    What is so engaging about this site? One of the things I find most engaging are the different perspectives offered by different posters. There is a wide age-range and people from many, many different countries. I tend enjoy the fact most here can express themselves at least fairly intelligently, and, with a couple of exceptions, don’t take themselves too seriously. I also appreciate how, if it starts to get too vitriolic, someone steps in to try and dial it back. I’ve read other sites, and the extreme negativity toward the subject matter and/or fellow posters is a huge deterrent.

    Good luck with your research/project!

  214. 4eyedraven:
    Ross,

    Whaddya mean ‘he used to work in television’? He has three shows in development. Plus he put out two books this year related to asoiaf, and an edited volume also I believe. Runs a small cinema, and is opening a multi-studio space for artists. He employs a number of people and gives them a livelihood. Plus making HBO and Tor millions of bucks. Not bad for a guy you say should be ‘more professional’.

    Calm down fella. He ‘used to work in television’ as in he used to write scripts for tv shows. As far as I know he no longer does so. Due to his main commitment – ASOIAF. I don’t deny his list of achievements is long and impressive and certainlymuch more so than yours or mine ever will be. I also don’t think he owes us anything. But my point was, he is familiar with working within tight deadlines. That would have been his world writing ‘Beauty and the Beast’. As he points out, he has agents, editors, translators, hbo and tons of other people waiting for this book in a professional capacity (not a fan capacity). So yes, I do believe he could have been ‘more professional’ to get his number one commitment completed.

  215. Cumsprite,

    Right about what? It now looks highly likely that TWOW will be out late this year. A 2016 release date has been the most common estimate for years and represents similar times to write ADWD and TWOW. I am not dissapointed by this news at all. Just the opposite! I am happy to learn he is on track and close to finishing.

    No, you were not right in think GRRM is your bitch or that you have any right to flog a wealthy old man because he ain’t slaving away hard enough for you. Get over it. Life is short and I fully respect George’s right to enjoy the fruits of his success.

  216. For the apologists, how about Ty´s insights from over a year ago ?

    He talks in terms of gardeners and architects, so I guess you’re more of an architect?

    Actually, I think that distinction is a false distinction. He really loves that idea, but I think it really doesn’t actually make any sense. He and I had several arguments about it — friendly arguments — but we had several arguments about it. And he’s actually changed how he describes it now because of our arguments. He no longer talks about it like these are two separate things; he now talks about it as everybody has shades of both. The truth is, I think if you have an ending in mind, I don’t think you can get there unless you roadmap of how to get there. And he is much more of a sit down at the keyboard, wait for the muse to strike, and bang out whatever chapter is sort of banging around in your head at that time. That works for him; he’s able to produce work, so more power to him, but that just seems like a really inefficient way to get a story out, from my perspective.

    http://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/nonfiction/interview-james-s-corey/

  217. The Dragon Demands: by definition, a TV adaptation does not exist in isolation from its source material.

    While that is true, it doesn’t mean that the source material and the adaptation have to be compared, let alone that the quality of the adaptation is (necessarily) in any relation with its faithfulness to the source material.

  218. I agree. And the reality is that unless he is superhuman and physically fit, finishing all this may just be too much.

    Most non writers do not understand how physically taxing writing is: you have to sit in one place, i.e. your computer, for hours in essentially the same position, just moving your fingers and wrists. After decades of this, things start to break down. The best way to counteract this is to exercise, something it is obvious he does not do.

    Thank goodness for the show, otherwise we might never know the end of the story.

    Jessica:
    Personally, I think it is good that he addressed this in his blog. Not for me, I already was 100percent sure, that Winds of Winter is not finished, but some still hopeful fans got now some clearity.

    But he should have just said, it is not finished and I do not know when it will be finished, it will definitely not be finished before season 6. When it is done, it is done. That would have been enough.

    BUT: He states that he has already written hundreds of pages and that the book could be finished within months, if everything is going well. Personally, I doubt this, he is not good in guessing his progress and seems to be quite unrealistic regarding his writing speed.

    He needs to put the pressure off himself, but with this statement he did not put the pressure off, the pressure ist just delayed for some months. Some of the fanbase (I am talking about you, westeros.org and Reddit) will just take from his statement that the book can be finished within month and hope now that the book will be finished before the end of the year. So, the pressure will still be there.

    Personally I do not believe that we will ever read the end of the series. The Winds of Winter may be finished in some years. (2018, 2020, 2022 whatever) But I do not have any hopes for the last book.

    Fortunately, we have the TV show which will tell us the end and the main plots and the fate of the main characters.

  219. Esmeralda,

    I enjoy this site tremendously – it almost feels like a family discussion with an aunt from France; an uncle from London and a niece in Brooklyn. We are all passionate about George’s work and bounce ideas and thoughts off each other constantly – most of us can’t do this with our true family members because they think we are crazy.?

    Also, I admire the mother of us all, Sue – she is who really drives this site and the discussions without the heavy hand most website administrators bring to the table.

    I hope this helps and good luck with your research.

  220. Cumsprite,
    Wimsey,

    Are you serious? I really shouldn’t dignify this with a comment, but, I just can’t help myself. Why not read my comment again and see if you can glean where I was coming from. WOW!!!

  221. “Not your bitch Not your bitch ENTITLEMENT Not your bitch Not your bitch ENTITLEMENT Not your bitch Not your bitch ENTITLEMENT Not your bitch Not your bitch”

    Alright, now that that’s done: GRRM is a lazy hack, has been since Feast. Abandon all hope.

    TWOW 2019, ADOS Never

  222. Chad Brick,

    It looks to me you are looking to take offense because you have Mr. Sprite marked down for some offense. I totally get it. He’s very obnoxious at times.

    However, I don’t see anywhere where he suggests (in a serious manner) that Martin is anyone’s bitch. And it is true, people who suggested at the time (before Dance) at westeros.org that Martin might have other priorities than ASoIaF (you cannot possibly miss those priorities, because there are Nab posts about all of them) were called entitled brats and all sorts of names, and were summarily banned.

    Personally, I really hoped Martin will be done with Winds so I can enjoy the world he created as he meant it, no modifications, no adapting. And in a small measure I suppose, so I can rub it all over those cheeky detractor faces that keep popping up all over interent, because I am NOT above that. But reading the post again, I have hopes that it will be for this year.

  223. Does anyone else find it interesting that GRRM is working in a Theon chapter at this late stage in the game? Presumably he writes more or less sequentially, so this info strongly hints that Theon will be around until at least the latter part of the book.

  224. Chad Brick:
    Cumsprite,

    No, you were not right in think GRRM is your bitch or that you have any right to flog a wealthy old man because he ain’t slaving away hard enough for you. Get over it. Life is short and I fully respect George’s right to enjoy the fruits of his success.

    Bondage analogies, GO!

  225. Chad Brick:
    Cumsprite,

    Right about what? It now looks highly likely that TWOW will be out late this year.A 2016 release date has been the most common estimate for years and represents similar times to write ADWD and TWOW. I am not dissapointed by this news at all. Just the opposite! I am happy to learn he is on track and close to finishing.

    No, you were not right in think GRRM is your bitch or that you have any right to flog a wealthy old man because he ain’t slaving away hard enough for you. Get over it. Life is short and I fully respect George’s right to enjoy the fruits of his success.

    Right about how his extracurricular activities have negatively impacted ASOIAF.

    Right about how, despite Martin’s repeated assertions, writing ASOIAF was not his top priority.

    No one is asking him to slave away at the books to the exclusion of all else. They are hoping (not demanding, mind you) that he stops dicking around.

  226. TormundsWoman,

    I would just like to make an addendum: GRRM is HBO’s bitch at the very least.

    You know in your heart of hearts that the book is years away TW. Search your feelings

  227. cosca,

    I was about to give up today. But then I searched my feelings. I know it to be true. It’s 2016. You will have to suck it up buttercup.

  228. Chad Brick: I am happy to learn he is on track and close to finishing.

    Hate to bust the bubble buddy, but nothing here is saying that. It suggests quite the opposite really.

  229. Chad Brick:
    Does anyone else find it interesting that GRRM is working in a Theon chapter at this late stage in the game? Presumably he writes more or less sequentially, so this info strongly hints that Theon will be around until at least the latter part of the book.

    Unless he still isn’t past page 100.

  230. cosca:
    TormundsWoman,

    I would just like to make an addendum: GRRM is HBO’s bitch at the very least.

    You know in your heart of hearts that the book is years away TW. Search your feelings

    Most definitely HBO’s bitch. And I have a subscription to HBO. So that makes him my bitch by subscription.

  231. cosca,

    That was a different claim. Last years’. 2016 is not 2015. Do keep up Cosca. I don’t have time to explain everything to you. I’m making a fresh batch of cookies so I can put them on this year.

  232. cosca,

    Indeed, GRRM stated that he is months aeay from finishing if all goes well. At this point, I do not expect to see Winter rekeased until after the series is done.

  233. What i really hate is people acting like Neil Gaiman is their bitch, and just copy-pasting his work everywhere instead of doing some of their own.

    it’s not right.

  234. cosca:
    Cary Storm,

    Well there you go. Considering that GRRM is clearly your bitch, sir, how do you feel about his abysmal work ethic?

    If this were a proper business, we’d fire him and hire someone else to do it properly. At least force retirement.

  235. flintstonewielder:
    cosca,

    Chad´s bubble is unburstable.
    Fact.

    How could you read GRRM’s post and not conclude he is a few months away from finishing?

    And care to bet on a release date? I could use a second bottle of wine to go along with the one mau owes me. I’ll enjoy them both as I read TWOW this fall.

  236. TormundsWoman,

    All I’m saying is that your credibility is shot TW, it will be difficult to recover from such a grievous blow.

    Consorting with known vagabonds and book purists such as Chad Brick doesn’t help matters.

  237. Cary Storm,

    In all honestly doesn’t look like he’s HBO ‘s either. Martin did say they were expecting him to have the book out by 2016 before S6. His publishers too. Yet it looks like they have taken it fairly well, according to his post. Not many get away with that I suppose. But I guess they know Martin by now.

  238. Chad Brick: How could you read GRRM’s post and not conclude he is a few months away from finishing?

    Because he said how he needs many chapters to finish, my dear Chad.

    and care to bet on a release date?

    2019

  239. Chad Brick: How could you read GRRM’s post and not conclude he is a few months away from finishing?

    How could you read his post and be so utterly convinced he’s only a few months from being finished?

  240. cosca,

    Chad and I share a vision. It’s not that I approve of his “not your bitch” lyric chorus motif he has going one against some posters here (sorry Chad, no offense!) but honestly, I really wish and hope for Martin’s sake as well as my own to read that book this year.

    I’m destroyed that my creed is so low. Must needs improvement! #TWoW2016 will surely do the job!

  241. Haven’t read the whole thread but has any one noticed Martin’s minor spoiler that Theon is alive probably a good two thirds of the way into the book. I know he might be be writing chapters out of order but I very much doubt it. Martin discovers his narrative detail through the writing process he moves forward in a linear fashion then comes back to re write, hone and incorporate new elements discovered in later chapters. If he’s six months away hes covered a lot of material already.

  242. TormundsWoman:
    cosca,

    I was about to give up today. But then I searched my feelings. I know it to be true. It’s 2016. You will have to suck it up buttercup.

    Why don’t you suck it up, Buttercup baby
    ‘Cuz GURM let you down and then dicks around
    And then best of all, Dance was a ball, baby
    Though you say it’s ill
    But I love GURM stilll
    I need GURM
    More than anyone, darlin’
    You know that I have from the start
    So suck it up and smell my farts.

  243. Vegodread,

    Thank you so much for your insightful words and kind wishes. I very much enjoy this site for the same reasons you do. It’s a place to let you ASongofIceandFire/GameofThrones flag fly.

    Thank you kindly once again!

  244. Simon,

    Maybe, but he’s been a few months away from finishing the new Dunk and Egg for two years and counting. When says he is three or four months from finishing something, you have to convert to Martin Time. Kinda like dog years.

  245. Cumsprite: Why don’t you suck it up, Buttercup baby
    ‘Cuz GURM let you down and then dicks around
    And then best of all, Dance was a ball, baby
    Though you say it’s ill
    But I love GURM stilll
    I need GURM
    More than anyone, darlin’
    You know that I have from the start
    So suck it up and smell my farts.

    Your age is showing by those 60s pop music references, old man.

  246. Vegodread:
    Esmeralda,

    Also, I admire the mother of us all, Sue – she is who really drives this site and the discussions without the heavy hand most website administrators bring to the table.

    I will, from now on, refer to Sue as Mhysa! Mhysa! Mhysa!

  247. cosca: Because he said how he needs many chapters to finish, my dear Chad.

    2019

    Where did he say how many chapters he needs to finish? He understandably didn’t provide numbers.

    I’ll take your bet. Shall we wager a bottle Stag’s Leap Petite Syrah? I shall enjoy drinking it on your behalf. Look me up, I am easy to find.

  248. Esmeralda:

    Why do you keep returning to the Watchers on the Wall?
    Do you feel a part of the community here?
    What is so engaging about this site?

    Hi Esmeralda! Glad to help

    1. Pau, Chad Brick
    2. No, I am not worthy
    3. Luminaries such as Pau and Chad Brick

  249. Cumsprite,

    Ugh, always with the farts! It’s why I always feel like bashing you proper whenever I see one of your righteous:” I told you so, we were right” posts! If Chad wouldn’t have stepped in with his annoying “not your bitch” I would have totally given you a piece of my mind. Would have told you to take your “I told you so and put it where the sun don’t shine” that’s what. But he HAD to say something.

    And it doesn’t rhyme anyway. And has not music. Needs more cowbell.

  250. So they annunced the Season 4 premiere date on January 10th and the Season 5 premiere date on January 8th. Do you think they’ll announce the exact premiere date for Season 6 by next weekend?

  251. Chad Brick: Where did he say how many chapters he needs to finish? He understandably didn’t provide numbers.

    I’ll take your bet. Shall we wager a bottle Stag’s Leap Petite Syrah? I shall enjoy drinking it on your behalf. Look me up, I am easy to find.

    If he did not provide numbers, how is he close to finishing, buddy?

    Chad, I don’t want to get so serious, so fast. Let this E-relationship fester a while, grow into something beautiful and pure.

  252. Esmeralda,

    1) Peer pressure
    2) Yes, well, sort of a meta-community, in which we all go back to our little homes in places like fleabottom.net when the interesting discussion has ebbed.
    3) the wonderful personalities of the mods: Sue the Fury. Axey. Marko.

  253. cosca,

    I´m actually with Chadster on this one. Later in 2016, the publisher will knock on GRRM´s door and tell him *George, give us everything you got, including the stuff that Linda and Elio are writing for you. Anne will edit into something remotely resembling a book and we´ll call it “Two battles and a turd”. It will fly, the sycos will have it nominated for the Nobel Prize*. Release date will be Xmas 2016, and on New Year´s day, George will communicate an 8th volume to the series because he so much more to share. We never hear from aS0IaF again after that – it´s all Puppies and Wild Cards on the NAB from then on.

  254. Esmeralda,

    1. Good news site for GoT news. The best to my knowledge.
    2. Spirited discussions, varied opinions (no tan echo chamber) and funny posters
    3. It’s pretty relaxed for ASoIAF too. Not only GoT. Unless you get the book purist vs show apologist day. Then all bets are off and I usually step away. And yes, mods have a very open mind attitude. Unless you suddenly go ad hominem on someone. Which is when Sue is making the law. Rightfully so!

  255. TormundsWoman:
    Esmeralda,

    1. Good news site for GoT news. The best to my knowledge.
    2. Spirited discussions, varied opinions (no tan echo chamber) and funny posters
    3. It’s pretty relaxed for ASoIAF too. Not only GoT. Unless you get the book purist vs show apologist day. Then all bets are off and I usually step away. And yes, mods have a very open mind attitude. Unless you suddenly go ad hominem on someone. Which is when Sue is making the law. Rightfully so!

    Seconding all of this. 🙂

  256. What this really tells us is that GRRM will never finish Book 7. Do the math….

    Book 6 is likely to come out in 2017. That would be 6 years between books 4/5 and 5/6.

    This means ADOS won’t be out until 2023 when GRRM is 75.

    Does anybody really think that will happen?

  257. Esmeralda:
    Hey everyone!

    Im a journalism student studying social media communities and I wanted to ask a few research questions from this community.

    Why do you keep returning to the Watchers on the Wall?
    Do you feel a part of the community here?
    What is so engaging about this site?

    Would appreciate any response!

    Thanks Watchers!

    1. Masochism, mainly. And they tend to do a good job of gathering all bits of new info, whether it’s from other sites or their own super duper secret sources. I’m also keeping a running tally of how many times Wimsey refers to Harry Potter for one analogy or another.

    2. Sure! Mostly when people disagree with me.

    3. The responses. The predictable unpredictability of which unrelated bit of casting news gets turned into a discussion of Sansaaaaaa.

  258. Cary Storm: I’m all for GRRM-bashing as much as the next person. But fuck that ageism.

    Ageism or the truth?

    People was bashed for saying he wouldn’t finish the book 6 before season 6 came out.

  259. Pigeon: I’m also keeping a running tally of how many times Wimsey refers to Harry Potter for one analogy or another.

    LOL!

  260. Wimsey:
    cosca,

    Indeed, GRRM stated that he is months aeay from finishing if all goes well.At this point, I do not expect to see Winter rekeased until after the series is done.

    So Fall or Winter 2016 is too optimistic? ?

  261. I think I’ve just decided to be cautiously hopeful TWOW is released before season 7.

  262. cosca: If he did not provide numbers, how is he close to finishing, buddy?

    Chad, I don’t want to get so serious, so fast. Let this E-relationship fester a while, grow into something beautiful and pure.

    That Syrah is something beautiful and pure, but in any case, five months ago GRRM estimate he could push and finish in four. He failed, but clearly took a chunk out of it. So maybe their are 2-3 months worth left at his unattainable fast pace and something like six months at his real one. I see no reason to think otherwise. This would correspond to a release around November, which the publishers would love.

  263. Luka Nieto: Go to other sites for the petty insults —that is not permitted here.

    Third post on this very thread insults an entire group of people at another site. So for future reference, are insults only not permitted here when they’re directed at aspects of the show? Thanks in advance.

  264. Rygar:
    Pau,

    Ageist

    So that’s a thing now!! Never heard the word before and I had to look it up…don’t worry man, doc told me I’d need reading glasses in 2-3 years so… 😉

  265. The Bastard:
    What this really tells us is that GRRM will never finish Book 7.Do the math….

    Book 6 is likely to come out in 2017.That would be 6 years between books 4/5 and 5/6.

    This means ADOS won’t be out until 2023 when GRRM is 75.

    Does anybody really think that will happen?

    Oh my god I forgot about ADOS. Oh crap. When will we get that book?

  266. Ok…..nobody will read down this far, bottom-supporting or not, but this is nagging at me and I need to get this off my chest.

    GRRM has spread himself too thin in his responsibilities. This is nothing that hasn’t been said before, but we’re going on 4.5 years between books 5 & 6, and we hear more about this anthology or that novella collection, or the cocteau, or the wolf sanctuary, or any number of other events and activities that he’s gotten involved in.

    I understand, in a way. There’s precedent for taking this long between books in a series. Stephen King took 21 years to finish books 1-5 of The Dark Tower (1982-2003). Then due to pressure from irritated publishers and readers, coupled with his own desire to finish, he cranked out the final two volumes in one year (2004). No, don’t fact check me, I’m going on personal experience as a dark tower fan and by what I read in 2003.

    Think what you want, but these empty cries of support and “understanding” for the pressure that George says he’s under and his problems setting and/or meeting deadlines rings a bit hollow to me. He’s brought it all on himself for taking on too damn much.

    I do believe that, like anyone, GRRM is entitled to a break now and then, and sometimes the thought train just isn’t chugging on a particular day. But when you’re planning a series of shows at your theater, editing a wild cards book, writing dunk and egg, supporting a wolf sanctuary, watching the jets and giants, and the rest of the things his schedule is packed with, complaining about pressure and your inability to focus on what has become your most noteworthy work seems a bit petty.

    All my views I’ve laid out here will of course be forgotten when I buy TWOW like everybody else. Just clean out your schedule, george, and focus on what’s making you the most money and giving you the most notoriety.

  267. Chad Brick:
    So mau…

    About our bet that TWOW will be out before 2018. Are you ready to concede? Or will I have to nag you later this year when the publication day is annouced?

    I’ll accept a good bottle of red wine as the prize. Thanks.

    Sigh…

  268. doug: Third post on this very thread insults an entire group of people at another site. So for future reference, are insults only not permitted here when they’re directed at aspects of the show? Thanks in advance.

    So you have never been in AFOIAF? Let me summarize it to you in a few words. Basically, you will be insulted/attacked/called an show apologist/called a retard if you dare to say you like the show. And that’s it.

  269. Lord Parramandas:
    I was bothered by Tysha omission as well, but from TV perspective, Tyrion’s storyline actually made sense.

    No. Objectively, removing Tysha as the central motivation behind Tyrion killing Tywin didn’t make sense. You’re just resorting to a sour grapes attitude of accepting when things fall into place in the narrative without internal plot logic.

    No. Elio and Linda co-wrote a book with Martin and are therefore “creators” – YES they are “authorities” and you owe them respect.

    YES Game of Thrones Wiki will compare the TV show to the novels. …other wikis are outright devoted to fan-fiction on other movies and TV series — A wiki is whatever you make it. Again: if you’re only looking for utterly neutral recaps and some casting information….why aren’t you just using Wikipedia.org’s pages? The *entire point* of GoTWiki is as a fan guide.

    Again…..that’s what a wiki…IS. It’s like you’ve gone onto Tumblr and thought it absurd that people post fanart on it.

  270. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
    Jack Bauer 24,

    I think it’s a pretty safe bet it’s the 24th of April.

    Yeah I’m just wondering when they will officially announce it since they announced the past 2 season premieres within the first 10 days of January. Silicon Valley and Veep will have to premiere March 1st it looks like because the Girls finale is April 24th and I don’t see how they can do GoT, Silicon, and Veep premieres all on the 24th with the Girls finale.

  271. The Dragon Demands,

    Tyrion’s love lied in front of everybody about him and then had sex with his dad. That was motivation to kill her. The books barely set her up as an important character before her death. The show did a much better job.

    And then motivation for Tyrion killing his father was clear cut in the show. His father treated him poorly for multiple seasons.

    The show stands on its own.

  272. Matthew The Dragon knight: I was also hoping for some new interviews talking about season 6 or the characters, those are always a ton of fun to read. Also since The teaser poster for Season 6 of jon snow came out on November 23rd, and the Teaser Trailer for season 6 came out on the 3rd, i’m under The belief they might Drop the Season 6 trailer on the 26th if not earlier maybe even the 6th. just a guess from what i’m putting together.

    Usually they announce the premiere date early January and then the trailer a few weeks after.

  273. I feel bad for the book readers who won’t get to finish the story as the book
    But I am glad that they have been provided with an opportunity to finish this spectacular story through the show.
    I have the books and haven’t read them.
    I hesitate on starting if the book series will never be finished . It’s a predicament!

  274. The Dragon Demands: YES Game of Thrones Wiki will compare the TV show to the novels.…other wikis are outright devoted to fan-fiction on other movies and TV series — A wiki is whatever you make it.Again:if you’re only looking for utterly neutral recaps and some casting information….why aren’t you just using Wikipedia.org’s pages?The *entire point* of GoTWiki is as a fan guide.

    Again…..that’s what a wiki…IS. It’s like you’ve gone onto Tumblr and thought it absurd that people post fanart on it.

    “Many major critics and review sources, however, reacted to the wins by expressing that Season 5 was probably the weakest season of Game of Thrones to date – compared to its own prior seasons. This led to discussion about whether the Emmy voting system was skewed or out of touch.”

    I got this from the wiki. I don’t care what you call it, but it was from the section called “Awards” for “Season 5”. Not “critical and fan opinion”.

    It reeks of book purists mad about the show….

  275. The Dragon Demands: Objectively

    As a book reader, it would be impossible to be objective about whether, without the inclusion of Tysha, Tyrion had enough motivation to kill Tywin. The only people who could be objective about that are Unsullied. If they thought Tyrion had plenty of reason to kill Tywin, Tysha was not a necessary element, since they wouldn’t know that part from the books had been omitted.

    Jack Bauer 24,

    I think I’m chomping at the bit too much for some sort of trailer to really care too much about an official announcement of the premiere date. If I didn’t feel pretty confident about what that date would be, I’d probably care a lot more.

  276. The Bastard,

    As for the Emmy awards, I also cited other publications that disagreed and thought the season was decent enough – you’re quoting that out of context.

    But look I don’t want to drag this out more on WOTW…

  277. Deesensfan,

    The first three novels (Game, Clash, Storm) are outstanding and worth reading. I found the last two (Feast, Dance) mediocre at best. I’d say read the first three, and rely on the show for what comes after.

  278. Lauren,

    Sorry, but I can easily see him taking it well into next year or the year after. I think this book will be a monstrous size, and even more exhausting to read (although thrilling still) than ADWD.

  279. Anonne,

    It’s all speculation in the end, isn’t it? It’ll be here when it’s here and I’ll be happy for it whenever that happens. I never saw it coming before 2017 anyway so I’m not shocked by any of this and if it doesn’t come next year, oh well.

  280. Jack Bauer 24: Usually they announce the premiere date early January and then the trailer a few weeks after.

    so HBO might announce a premier Date for season 6 next week ? or guessing when they do announce it we can pretty much guess when they will drop a trailer.

  281. Deesensfan,

    Yeah I think if I hadn’t been a book reader I would be uncertain if I wanted to start now too. I think Cersei’s Brain’s advice to wait until TWoW comes out is good advice. At least you will only be waiting for only (hopefully) one more book instead of more. I know a lot of people complain about AFFC, but I find that when you read ADWD right after it, it’s a little less frustrating because you don’t feel like you are only reading half a book and are waiting forever for the other half to arrive.

  282. I got this from the wiki.I don’t care what you call it,but it was from the section called “Awards” for “Season 5”.Not “critical and fan opinion”.

    It reeks of book purists mad about the show….

    Or is simply an accurate reflection of the fact that in all fields, awards tend to have an element of lifetime achievement even when they are not supposed to.

  283. Chad Brick: Or is simply an accurate reflection of the fact that in all fields, awards tend to have an element of lifetime achievement even when they are not supposed to.

    Or maybe Chadster, the Pippi Longstocking of the board, is pulling stuff out of his nose again.

  284. Well, I’ve read the books after watching the show (more precisely after the 5th season) and I enjoyed them anyway, very much! I literally devoured those books… Just like I enjoyed several other books I’ve read after watching the film adaptations. If a book is good, it doesn’t matter if you already know the story. You can read a book about Napoleon or Spartacus and love it, even if you already know their fate, right? And it’s always interesting to find the differences with the adaptation and learn the many many details you can only find in the books. And luckily, the 2 media are very different. An adaptation will never replace the book. They works differently, different sensations, different emotions… Books are more powerful, I think. They can even make you forget you already know the story and enjoy the reading as if you were inside that story… 😉

  285. Lauren,

    Yeah that’s what I hear. I do plan to read them. I love reading and love that genre. I may just have to wait till season 6 ends

  286. The Dragon Demands:
    The Bastard,

    As for the Emmy awards, I also cited other publications that disagreed and thought the season was decent enough – you’re quoting that out of context.

    But look I don’t want to drag this out more on WOTW…

    It’s not about citations. The opinion piece is out of place in a fact based section.

    Also, it is extremely odd that somebody would devote hours and hours to updating a wiki for something they obviously don’t like.

  287. flintstonewielder: Or maybe Chadster, the Pippi Longstocking of the board, is pulling stuff out of his nose again.

    Sometimes I think you disagree with me just for the sake of disagreeing. Keep it up and soon I’ll have you railing against mom, apple pies and puppies.

  288. Ser Creighton Longbough,

    I have never thought books are more powerful.

    Movies have sound effects, music, visuals, and dialogue. The only thing it misses is internal thoughts. And a great actor and portray them on screen anyways.

    Look at Charles Dance. There are not enough words in the world to describe his presence in Game of Thrones. From his walk, to his mannerisms, to his ability to speak. Obviously my words don’t do it justice either….

  289. Deesensfan,

    I’d say reading the books would add to your experience of watching the show. One of the biggest plus points of reading the books for me is we get to go inside the heads of the PoVs and know their thoughts, which really adds to their characters, esp characters like Jon and Dany. Plus I enjoy the world building too. The first 3 books are great, the last 2 while not at the same level, are still a good read, esp ADWD. Maybe you could start once S6 is done and hopefully by the time you are done, WOW comes out 🙂 .

  290. Chad Brick,

    Bro, I´m trying to help you, nothing else. But it´s tough. You´re the type of person that thinks the Earth is flat because that´s the way it looks on all those internet pics.

    Coming Xmas, why don´t you stay up overnight so you can see that it´s Mommy who is filling your stockings, not Santa Claus. You will be devastated, but it will be a magnificent growing-up experience for you.

  291. It’s not too much of a surprise that TWOW won’t be out until later 2016 at the earliest. I think he’s under a lot of pressure from both HBO and his publishers to get it out this year. I don’t blame them. His publishers would have preferred to have it by now to have it ready for a summer release. More than likely if it is a 2016 release, it will be either a November or December in store date. That gives him until summer to finish the book for a quick turn around.

  292. The Bastard,

    Meh. When you watch a movie, you’re at the mercy of the director, the actors and the elements you mentioned. If the actor is bad, or the directing is bad, then your experience gets affected or gets limited by it.

    With books, the only limits you have is your imagination. And you know what they say about imagination…

  293. Pigeon,

    Tut, tut: they are comparisons, not analogies! But you can count those if you wish. (Feel free to count my references to Chekov’s Gun, Occam’s Razor, Doctor Who and my Shark Tyrannosaurus analogy, too.) I am just that sort of guy!

  294. Shadow Shifter:
    The Bastard,

    Meh. When you watch a movie, you’re at the mercy of the director, the actors and the elements you mentioned. If the actor is bad, or the directing is bad, then your experience gets affected or gets limited by it.

    With books, the only limits you have is your imagination. And you know what they say about imagination…

    Imagination you say?

    *** STAR WARS 7 SPOILER ALERT***

    It’s been 3 weeks since the movie has been out, so it should be okay to discuss it. And nobody has ever claimed that the acting in Star Wars is top notch.

    Look at the scene when Kylo Ren is trying to use the force to get the lightsaber out of the snow. Instead, Rey uses the force instead to retrieve the lightsaber. During that scene…. We have an amazing John Williams score. There is nothing in my imagination that is as awesome as a John Williams Star Wars soundtrack. I could read a million books in a lifetime and never think up his music to go along with a scene.

    SW: 1
    Imagination: 0

    The sound of the the lightsaber. How can text describe that sound? It can’t. There are no words to describe how awesome that sounds to the human ear. How about Darth’s Vader breathing? Could you send chills down a readers spine by describing it in text? Not a chance.

    SW: 2
    Imagination: 0

    How about the look on Rey’s face. 80% of human communication is done non-verbally. There was more information passed along to the viewers in her facial expressions alone then a GRRM 2 page food description.

    SW: 3
    Imagination: 0

    I could go on. I know it is cool to say books are better, but they really aren’t. My imagination is nice, but the experts can go beyond my imagination in movies. Books just can’t do that….

  295. Matthew The Dragon knight: so HBO might announce a premier Date for season 6 next week ? or guessing when they do announce it we can pretty much guess when they will drop a trailer.

    Yeah hopefully. They announced the premieres for Seasons 4 and 5 within the first 10 days of January.

  296. Wimsey:
    Pigeon,

    Tut, tut: they are comparisons, not analogies!But you can count those if you wish.(Feel free to count my references to Chekov’s Gun, Occam’s Razor, Doctor Who and my SharkTyrannosaurus analogy, too.) I am just that sort of guy!

    237……

    I kid, of course. There’s always a point of some sort! 😉

  297. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Yes you can’t be objective in that situation.
    When Tyrion killed his father on the show, I kept thinking, I think Tyrion would only murder for Tysha. I wondered if show-only peeps thought it was in character for him.
    I watched the 1st season or two before reading the 1st 3 books.

  298. Jeff O’Connor,

    Here Here! Cheers to all of this!
    + but mostly the crazy ass posts & posters! Especially the ones who txt like they’re British, but totally arent!?
    This place ROCKS!
    Btw, Merry Christmas ya filthy animals! & a HAPPY NEW YEAR!! ?

  299. Jack Bauer 24: Yeah hopefully. They announced the premieres for Seasons 4 and 5 within the first 10 days of January.

    well let’s hope, hopefully they announce it on the 6th XD lol crosses fingers :p

  300. S6 SPOILERS by Episode (locations, characters, scenes)
    Not much director info to go on, so with some guesswork + leaked info, here’s what Season 6 E1-E10 may look like. Some characters/scenes may not be in the right episodes/locations. Some locations may be part of other locations (visions). Some scenes are speculated & some may be wrong.

    E1
    THE WALL – Jon funeral, Edd, Melisandre & Davos discussion. Tormund.
    DOTHRAKI SEA – Dothraki take Dany hostage.
    MEEREEN – Starving mom & baby frightened by Tyrion w/Varys & Missendei. Yezzan.
    LAST HEARTH – Osha, Rickon, Smalljon Umber.
    KING’S LANDING – Mountain & Cersei await Jaime & Myrcella at dock.

    E2
    PYKE –
    WINTERFELL – Sansa & Theon in Godswood/Northern forests. Ramsay. Brienne.
    VALE – Yohn Royce, Robin Arryn.
    BRAAVOS – Jaqen, Theater, Blind Arya.
    KING’S LANDING – High Sparrow.
    RIVERLANDS – Walder & Merrett Frey. Bowen.
    WESTEROS – Sam

    E3
    IRON ISLANDS –
    MEEREEN – Missendei & Grey Worm. Kinvara addresses people of Meereen & interacts w/Tyrion, Varys. Shae. Hungry extras. Children. Granary. Varys says goodbye to Tyrion at port.
    DOTHRAKI SEA – Khalasar travel w/Dany towards Vaes Dothrak & make camp.
    VAES DOTHRAK – Khalsmoot, large celebration. Jorah & Daario spy on camp & plot to rescue Dany. Young Widow.
    BRAAVOS – Blind Arya begging in street. Waif comes upon her & hits her w/stick. Mace heads home to Westeros.
    RIVERLANDS – BWB, Meribald brings the Hound back.

    E4
    KING’S LANDING – Tommen. Olenna yells at Mace for doing nothing about Loras & Margaery’s imprisonment.
    DORNE – Hotah, Doran, Tyene, & Ellaria, Yezzan, Razdal, Obara, Olenna, Varys.
    VAES DOTHRAK – Khal confrontation. 400 extras, battle/brawl. Drogon fire.
    WESTEROS – Sam & Gilly. Distinguished Man.
    BRAAVOS – King’s Landing play at Theater.

    E5
    WINTERFELL – Snowy woods just outside battlefield. Brienne vicious fighting.
    THE WALL – Jon, Melisandre, very exciting scene, Tormund, White Walker army. Othell Yarwyck. Alliser Thorne. Smoke.
    PYKE – Rope bridge. Euron arrives & meets Aeron. Kingsmoot, Ironmen, Theon, Yara.
    THE REACH – Tarly family dinner w/Sam.
    KING’S LANDING – Cersei, Qyburn, Pycelle. Qyburn’s laboratory – Qyburn, Pycelle, some others in minor parts, child.
    BEYOND THE WALL – Bran, Hodor, 3 Eyed Raven cave. Children of the Forest action scenes?
    BRAAVOS – Arya, Izembaro.
    MEEREEN – Tyrion, Varys, Shae, Unsullied, Masters.

    E6
    WINTERFELL – Courtyard tension, giant turns up at the gates & tries to force its way in & people inside have to fight it off. Sansa, Jon Snow, Ramsay, Littlefinger. Horses, extras.
    RIVERLANDS – Merrett & Walder Frey.
    RIVERRUN – Bronn; Jaime & Blackfish argue w/Blackfish possibly defending garrison & shooting flaming arrows. Frey troop.
    VAES DOTHRAK – Dany, Dothraki, Daario.
    BEYOND THE WALL – ToJ in Dorne. Young Hodor, young Ned & his younger siblings. Stark family flashback w/origin of Hodor.
    KING’S LANDING – Throne Room – Cersei, Jaime, Hand of the King. Sept of Baelor – Jaime & Tyrell soldiers, Gold Cloaks, Lannister soldiers, Tommen march on Sept of Baelor. High Sparrow & Faith Militant, Lancel release Marg.
    ESSOS – Tyrion, 40 slaves, Unsullied, Dany, Drogon.
    VOLANTIS – Bridge.
    High Born Lady (Well-Heeled Lady 2?) hires courtesan for party.

    E7 – Bryan Cogman
    OLDTOWN – Sam speaks w/a maester at Citadel in Oldtown. Gilly.
    BRAAVOS – Arya goes to the King’s Landing play at the theater.
    Old Lady, Pale Young Man.

    E8 – Bryan Cogman
    BRAAVOS – Waif stabs Arya. Arya jumps out of a window & escapes into a side alley while Waif pursues her. Waif runs along a wall & jumps/falls off it. Arya jumps in water. Westerosi Sea Captain.
    RIVERLANDS – Graveyard – Pod.
    RIVERRUN – Brienne argues w/Jaime in his tent & chats w/Bfish. Bronn pleased 2 c Pod & sneaks up behind him & pretends to attack him. Edmure, BWB, Merrett Frey.

    E9
    THE WALL – Jon Snow convinces wildlings to fight Boltons by his side.
    THE NORTH – Manderly, Cerwyn, Yohn Royce, Sansa.
    WINTERFELL – Battle of the Bastards. Ramsay, Karstarks, Umbers vs Jon, wildlings, Davos, Wun Wun. Mormonts, Starks, Hornwoods battle. Haggard Lord, Captain of the Tower. Umbers, Karstarks, Boltons & wildlings dead.

    E10
    MEEREEN – Razdal.
    Newborn Baby w/black hair, brown eyes.

  301. The Dragon Demands

    No. Elio and Linda co-wrote a book with Martin and are therefore “creators” – YES they are “authorities” and you owe them respect.

    Citing Tywin Lannister: I would rather let myself be consumed by maggots before mocking my name and showing these two any respect, especially Linda.

    “Is it harassment for me to tell you that you’re a cunt? No.”
    “I am not ever going to be interested in having a polite discussion with you.”
    “You don’t get the consideration of politeness or courtesy of me. That’s for human beings, not trolls.”
    “I see no reason whatsoever to express myself in anything but the most disrespectful terms to a bunch of hysterical girls who started screaming “omg, you’re horribly sexist, racist, whatever-ist!” based on their warped and completely fucked up “social justice” agenda. I don’t want there to be any misunderstandings possible about the fact that I have no respect at all for them or their opinions and that I consider their existence a waste of natural resources.”
    “See, I think you should stop worrying about what the A Song of Ice and Fire fandom is like, because you’re not part of it. You’re part of the fandom of a pretty weird and sometimes rather sick interpretation of the books, which has nothing to do with the actual story.”

    Honestly, how could you possibly believe that a person like Linda deserves ANY respect? She is the sole reason I haven’t purchased The World of Ice and Fire.

    And do you know why I discuss this at WOTW? Because if I had said anything against you on GoT wiki or god-forbid tried to edit/tone down your subjective writing, you would permanently ban me for “harrassing” the administrator.

    You are a complete joke, The Dragon Demands.

  302. Esmeralda:
    Why do you keep returning to the Watchers on the Wall?
    Do you feel a part of the community here?
    What is so engaging about this site?

    Late to the party as always – hope you still get to the answer!

    I think it’s a pretty complex question, and part of it is actually why I’m attracted to GoT at all. So, let’s start!

    1. I’m a data junkie, I love predicting where things go, having my predictions confirmed, and also having superior knowledge. It’s a quirk of my mind – I get addicted to data. I love following international politics for the same reason! So, GoT attracts me because it’s an unfinished narrative (and a narrative is much easier to deal with than reality, since stories are supposed to make sense, while reality doesn’t); and this site attracts me because it feeds me spoilers;
    2. Conversely, I absolutely hate all the bullshit which comes of being on social media under your real name. I want to discuss stuff, not have to regularly congratulate people on having birthdays. So, for example, on the Internet, I don’t have a Facebook account, but I do have a Reddit account, because that’s nominally anonymous. This place is nominally anonymous as well – after a time, I have learned the positions of the most frequent posters here, and could probably even repeat them if I strained to, but, crucially, I don’t have to care about their ages, genders, nationalities, money and/or power status, the number of spouses and/or children and, yeah, the birthdays of all these. This is attractive to me;
    3. So far, I have mostly only explained my attraction to anonymised sites in this particular fandom. Why this place in particular (apart from the spoiler-feeding business?)? Well, as a community, this place is both positive towards the show and, crucially, extraordinarily respectful to the runners of the Game of Thrones show. Some places in the fandom, especially westeros.org, aren’t – it’s not just that it is full of people with negative opinions about the show, open invectives towards the showrunners are tolerated there, if not silently encouraged. I’m not really interested in being in a place like that.

    Also, if I’m to be frank, I also prefer a place where I can be to some extent assured that the most frequent opinions agree with mine. After all, it’s just a TV show fandom, and not a case where resolving the differences in opinion is at all crucial (think politics again). You can call it self-segregation and/or homophily, I guess.

    So, in summary: a fandom with a predictive opportunity, an anonymised website, spoilers and a community that mostly, within an epsilon margin, agrees with me. That’d be it. ?

  303. That happens when you sell a product before it is completed. It never gets finished.

    If you believe the ending will be published, you have not been paying attention.

  304. Randy Tarly’s Minivan:
    Ok…..nobody will read down this far, bottom-supporting or not, but this is nagging at me and I need to get this off my chest.

    I’ll read you, brave Randy! As long as I draw breath, you will not go unacknowledged! You are precious to me!

  305. Lord Parramandas,

    He really is. Check out the extensive “personal life” section for Lena Headey on the wiki for example. No other actor on the show has such a section. And all of those edits were done by TDD himself. No joke. I’d love to hear him waffle about how that’s somehow his prerogative as a wiki admin to let everyone know. Whatever his motives were for that, it’s pretty out of place.

  306. Since where all here, why don’t we rate our favourite books?
    1. A Storm of Swords
    2. A Feast for Crows
    3. A Dance with Dragons
    4. A Game of Thrones
    5. A Clash of Kings

  307. Lord Parramandas,

    Just wanted too thank you, for saying all this!! I don’t have the patiance of writing all of that, especially knowing it will never get trough too him.

    But it’s good that people, who perhaps are not familiar with the situation, know exactly why the Wiki became a personal blog, where one man rants about the show and qoutes and ”respects”, awefull people like Linda.

    Again thank you, for saying what I belive most of us already tought.

  308. Since where all here, why don’t we rate our favourite books?

    Why hello there, fellow AFFC lover 😉

    1. A Storm of Swords
    2. A Feast for Crows
    3. A Clash of Kings/A Dance with Dragons (I can’t really decide)
    5. A Game of Thrones (I blame watching season 1 of the show first)

  309. Angela: So Fall or Winter 2016 is too optimistic?

    June 15, 2015 – I wrote:

    Crazy (impossible) Optimistic release date: Spring 2016
    Very Optimistic release date: Christmas 2016
    Optimistic release date: 2017
    Real release date: someday.

    🙂

  310. cosca,

    Yup, exactly my opinion here.

    Altough I wouldn’t even put AFFC on that list, that is how much dissapointed I was with it.

    ADWD is decent/”meh” for me, so 4 sounds about right. Tough it’s far from the quality ACOK had and I consider this the ”worst” of the original 3 books.

  311. Mihnea,

    I have to disagree. Splitting the early books was a pain in the arse but Adwd wasn’t so bad. What I like though is his absurdist take on fantasy. There are no gods, prophesy means nothing, unless you are into self anihilation like some religious nut jobs in the world, and there is no salvation any where. Should be retitled… “Waiting for the prince that was promised”

  312. Simon,

    Like I sad, ”for me”.
    ADWD too me is a decent/”meh” book. It had bad moments, many for me, from the Meereen story too Tyrion…etc. but it had some good moments, Theons chapters being one of them.

  313. ghost of winterfell,

    This to be honest, is closer too my order.

    With ACOK-ADWD preaty tied. ACOK really let me down in couple of stories.

    Like Dany’s all that excitment at the end of AGOT with the dragons birth and….you get 3-4 chapters of mostly nothing.

    Jon’s story beyond the wall was again a bit of a letdown.

    And most of all Rob, I really tough we would see more of him when I finished AGOT but instead we only hear about his victories.

  314. Mihnea,

    Theon’s chapters were good as most of the stuff in the north was. The show did Essos better but I was only half joking about the absurdist stuff. I think the meandering is very Sysiphus. Life gets in the way of meaning and hope is a fast track to self deception and elusion. There will be no one saviour just everybody doing there bit to keep things ticking on. If Martin did that he’d really have subverted the genre and written something special

  315. Mihnea,

    ADwD is simply way too drawn out for its own good. When I think about the themes and story of the book, it is actually very, very good. Theon’s plight, Jon’s (unsuccessful) balancing between Wildlings and NW as well as between Stannis and the Boltons, Tyrion’s journey through the “heart of darkness”, Bran starts his metaphysical training in earnest, Dany is torn between two sides of her nature and legacy (Meereenese Blot essays really help here), King’s Landing spirals into chaos instigated from all sides (Cersei, High Sparrow, Varys, Littlefinger), etc. When I write it this way, there’s a lot to admire about the book.

    Unfortunately, it’s in the execution of all these ideas that Martin falls short. Too much bloat and too much meandering result in those themes and stories getting avalanched beneath tons of extraneous stuff.

  316. Mr Fixit,

    Exactly! ADWD has a good story/theme, it is the presentation/execution and honesly the lack of editing that is the major problem.

    There dozens of ”characters” that frankly needed cut and even couple of POV’s. (Quentyn for one)

    Not even going too mention on editing the chapters. GRRM went from developing a character in 2-3/4 chapters (Jaime) too doing 10 with the same amount of developing. (Tyrion).

    ADWD, really needed a good editor.

  317. cosca:
    Atrocious. You’re the Chad Brick of commenters, Tywin of the Hill.

    What did he call me??

    zambi76,

    Thank God, I was starting to think I was the only one in this website. ?

  318. cosca,

    Yup. Before the season I was really, really worried it would be a disaster considering the books they had too adapt.

    But I was pleasently suprized at how well they maneged it.
    S5 is easly in top 3 seasons for me. S4 is still my favourite, just loved Charlse Dance and Pedro (A good example on how a actor improves a character. Oberyns smile, the look in his eyes, his voice changing from mockery too anger,…etc. This is something I can never get from books, 1000 words can’t describe Pedro.)

    And S1 on second spot. Mostly because of Sean Bean and Robert( I always forget the actors name!) Sean Bean was simply godlike. The way he stands when he sentances Clagane too death, the way he speaks,.etc. again, something I cen never get from a book.

  319. Shadow Shifter,

    I think this is a bit mean.

    In my day to day life I work at a bank, I have absolutly nothing to do with music. Can’t sing, can’t compose.
    But I enjoy a good music, especially in movies/TV I belive they can make a good movie into something amazing.

    But I can’t do this in books. I can’t imagine what kind of music would fit a momement.
    But there are experts who do, that’s what they are paid for, that’s what they do everyday. I look at numbers most days.

    So I think it’s a bit mean too say that, just because a person can’t do what a profesional does, he doesn’t have imagination.

  320. So I’d never visited G. Martin’s live journal, never been to any live journal actually, and I read the whole message he put out and then was going to check out a couple pages of comments and read the first but when I clicked for more it said the author locked them and now you can’t see any. The ones I did read were complementary. Why would he lock them?

  321. cosca:
    Tywin of the Hill,

    Atrocious. You’re the Chad Brick of commenters, Tywin of the Hill.

    1. ASOS
    2. AGOT
    3. ACOK
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .

    .
    4. ADWD
    5. AFFC

    AFFC is the best, as it separated those who appreciate multi-layered writing from those who think Star Wars E7 or Harry Potter are high art.

    The funny thing is if GRRM were to announce that he had completely re-written AFFC with every chapter re-told from a different POV, all these detractors would be downloading it midnight the day of release and calling in to work sick the next day.

  322. Chad Brick: AFFC is the best, as it separated those who appreciate multi-layered writing from those who think Star Wars E7 or Harry Potter are high art.

    The funny thing is if GRRM were to announce that he had completely re-written AFFC with every chapter re-told from a different POV, all these detractors would be downloading it midnight the day of release and calling in to work sick the next day.

    Your obvious superiority is upsetting to me Chad Brick. I’m too busy stuffing myself with McDonalds and hanging out with my inbred family to appreciate the obvious genius of AFFC.

    I would most certainly not be downloading that. It sounds equally awful

  323. cosca,

    aFfC -> any which way you slice it, it´s still baloney.

    Brought to you by GRRM, the Jordan Belfort of Fantasy Writing.

  324. Esmeralda,

    Why do you keep returning to the Watchers on the Wall? To get the latest news for the upcoming or current season, as well as some of the discussions

    Do you feel a part of the community here? Mmm, hard to say. I don’t post as often as I used to because I am not sure my comments have much to add here. But as I am a book reader and show watcher and love both in different ways , I feel part of the community of other readers and watchers while reading the discussions (not sure that makes sense )

    What is so engaging about this site? I really like the main writers of the posts for their intelligent and at times humorous analysis of all things GOT/ASOIAF. I also like many of the commenters who add to my understanding of the books and show. Most other sites I have looked at are just too filled with flaming and insults. This group does too at times but the discussions are usually such that I can read them without totally being put off, which considering the GOT fandom in general, thats pretty amazing.

  325. ghost of winterfell,
    Hmmm, that’s tough. I would go with something like:
    1. aSoS
    2. GoT
    3. aDwD
    4. aCoK
    7. aFfC

    I put Crows 7th because the two unpublished novels are not yet as bad as that one was.

  326. cosca: Your obvious superiority is upsetting to me Chad Brick. I’m too busy stuffing myself with McDonalds and hanging out with my inbred family to appreciate the obvious genius of AFFC.

    I would most certainly not be downloading that. It sounds equally awful

    You’d be banging away at the download button starting about 11:58 pm like a horny sixteen year old boy whose internet had been out for a week.

    AFFC was nominated for a Hugo and has ratings superior to almost any major Scifi/fantasy book from the year of its release at Goodreads, despite the trolls. It’s easy to argue it was the weakest book of the series. Only someone with an ax to grind would argue it is a bad or even mediocre book. ADWD was even better, in large part due to the Theon chapters, which were off-the-charts incredible.

  327. Wimsey:
    ghost of winterfell,
    Hmmm, that’s tough.I would go with something like:
    1. aSoS
    2. GoT
    3. aDwD
    4. aCoK
    7. aFfC

    I put Crows 7th because the two unpublished novels are not yet as bad as that one was.

    I agree on the order, and since you earlier argued that books that are not series finales are judged on thier own merits and not the coat-tails of earliar books, AFFC was great because it was nominated for a Hugo and received solid reviews.

  328. Mihnea,

    How is it mean exactly? I am simply pointing out that some people like me prefer books because I believe imagination is a fucking glorious thing. I don’t have to worry about bad actors or bad directing because I can pretty much do what I want with the characters in my head.

  329. Mihnea,

    I think both AFfC and ADwD needed severe PoV culling: Areo, Aeron, Arys, Victarion, Quentyn, Melisandre, Barristan. None of those should’ve made the cut and their respective stories and/or plot points should have been relegated to other characters or other PoVs. Dorne and Iron Islands, if they are really that important — which I have my doubts about — should have been given a single strong protagonist each: Arianne and Asha, I guess, but I’m open to other suggestions. Personally, I would cut Jon Connington as PoV as well as he just kinda randomly drops in at the tail end of the book and does nothing of importance except provideVarys with motivation for the epilogue. Ideally, I’d open TWoW with a prologue from JonCon’s perspective as he and Young Griff finally make their move.

    Other characters needed harsh reduction in page count: absolutely no reason to give Tyrion’s journey from A to B whopping 12 chapters (and still not meat Dany) or for Jon Snow to wrestle with issues of leadership for 13 chapters, or Brienne to wander aimlessly for 8 chapters (making her the second most important PoV in AFfC, where basically nothing happens), nor did Sam’s journey from Eastwatch to Oldtown via Braavos need 5 chapters.

    Even well-regarded storylines suffered from the bloat. For example, take Davos: only in his third of total four chapters are we getting somewhere, with that awesome chapter at the Manderly court. The first two chapters, while interesting enough regarding some background info and such, are essentially about nothing but Davos noting stuff that happens around him at Sisteron and White Harbor.

    Therefore, cut, cut, cut, all day long as far as I’m concerned. :

  330. Esmeralda:
    Why do you keep returning to the Watchers on the Wall?

    First, because it’s anonymous. If I sense that the people here don’t like me, I just have to change my name and star from zero.
    Second, there’s the relief of not having the pressure of votes and the like from Disqus or Twitter.
    And third, it’s more accesible than other pages (no second or third pages of comments).

    Do you feel a part of the community here?

    Some days more than others.

    What is so engaging about this site?

    See 1.

  331. Lists are so yesterday’s news. I’d like to see how many times you guys read the books! You know, to really separate amateurs from the pros (wink, wink)! As for me, only once! Does that make me a bad person, a noob even?

  332. Chad Brick: AFFC was great because it was nominated for a Hugo and received solid reviews.

    Getting nominated for a Hugo has nothing to do with quality: the MTV awards have as much to do with quality as do the Hugos. Lots of really bad books get nominated for Hugos: in many years, only bad books get nominated for Hugos. (That is part of why the Nebulas were formed: even back then, it was realized that .)

    And the reviews were not good, despite what you wish to pretend. After all, that’s how the rumors that the book was ghost-written got started: more than one reviewer noted that it did not read as if the same guy had written this book as had written the

    Shadow Shifter: am simply pointing out that some people like me prefer books because I believe imagination is a fucking glorious thing.

    first three, and in classic Grimmsian fashion, that evolved into “they accused it of being ghost-written.”

    Mr Fixit: I think both AFfC and ADwD needed severe PoV culling: Areo, Aeron, Arys, Victarion, Quentyn, Melisandre, Barristan. None of those should’ve made the cut and their respective stories and/or plot points should have been relegated to other characters or other PoVs.

    That was far and away the biggest problem. The idea for the Crows/Dragons story (kill the boy/girl, become the man/woman) was a good one. However, it relies heavily on dynamic evolution of the characters. And that means that it really helps if the characters already are well-developed. The new PoV characters were not well-developed. Part of the reason why we got so many PoVs was that GRRM tried to use 3rd party PoV to develop new protagonists such as Arriane. And: it just did not work.

    A “kill the child, let the adult be born” story focussing on the Big Six plus Jaime, Sam, Theon and Cersei (who was the only new PoV sufficiently well-developed for this to work) could have been a well-told story. But we didn’t get that.

    And I agree completely that the narrative was bloated: even the “good” storylines (particularly Jon’s and Daeny’s) needed to lose a few chapters. The Tyrion storyline needed to lose the “hiccup.” On the other hand, Sansa needed a middle and end to go with a beginning. Bran’s storyline needed some “pizzaz”: but that could have replaced some of the “are we there yet” and descriptions of the yumminess of acorn paste.

    All in all, I would hold up the six Arya chapters as optimal: we got a great start, beginning and end pretty succinctly there, and we got a very good contribution to “kill the girl, let the woman be born” from it.

  333. Chad Brick:AFFC was great because it was nominated for a Hugo and received solid reviews.

    Hmmm. I don’t recall ever seeing a SF/F book NOT get solid reviews in major publications. I always found that suspicious — led me to believe that professional reviewers were SF/F fans trying to elevate “genre” fiction whether it was actually good or not. However, the reviews for AFFC among amateur reviewers (bloggers and whatnot) were decidedly mixed.

    As for the Hugos, I find it hard to take the award seriously. It’s not a juried award or a popularity contest but a mongrel of the two. Without Googling, could you say what book beat out AFFC for the Hugo? I sure as hell couldn’t. But we should read it post haste as it must be even greater than great.

  334. Shadow Shifter: I am simply pointing out that some people like me prefer books because I believe imagination is a fucking glorious thing.

    That is not how it is supposed to work. You are reading the product of someone else’s imagination. It is his/her job to verbally paint a sufficiently vivid picture that you do not have to imagine things for yourself. (This is true regardless of the art form being discussed.)

    Shadow Shifter: I don’t have to worry about bad actors or bad directing because I can pretty much do what I want with the characters in my head.

    But, again, that is actually contrary to what is supposed to be happening. The main characters are the story. It’s the author’s job to make you understand them: if you do not understand Jon or Daeny or Tyrion, then you cannot get the story because that comes from how those people unravel themselves. If you imagine them anyway you like, then you almost necessarily will miss the story because the odds of you imagining what Martin (or any other author) is trying to develop is vanishingly small.

    Remember, it’s an artist’s job to imagine. The artist’s goal/hope is that an audience will appreciate the product of his/her imagination. But if we add our own imagination to it, then we necessarily are distorting their art.

  335. Pigeon: I kid, of course. There’s always a point of some sort!

    Well, I’m a pointy guy! 😀

    Seriously, glad you think that there is a point!

  336. After a 24 hours reflection, I decided that I should be happy. I still have reasons: I won’t be waiting for a book which won’t be published (at least not this year), so I know what to expect. And I’m truly happy that in April I’ll began watching season 6. Till then I can reread and binge-watch as much as I like. This amazing world still stays with me.

  337. Greenjones,

    I copied information from Lena Headey’s public interviews into the Lena Headey article; she’s done more in-depth interviews that some of the other actors, so there was more to write about.

  338. Awards are not a sign of quality. The Wire was only nominated for an Emmy twice, yet is regarded as one of the best TV programmes ever. Not saying that the book is bad but just a thought.

  339. Wimsey,

    I was going to mention the Nebulas in my previous post. As a kid in the bookstores, I sought out the books that had won them. I was only tangentially aware of the Hugos until I started lurking at Martin’s blog.

  340. I’d like to point out the irony of criticizing measured analysis of Benioff and Weiss’s work, while at the same time, bluntly insulting co-author Linda.

  341. I have a feeling George will never finish the books.

    The only good news is that he’s working on a Theon chapter, which probably means Theon doesn’t die early in the 6th book.

  342. The Dragon Demands:
    I’d like to point out the irony of criticizing measured analysis of Benioff and Weiss’s work, while at the same time, bluntly insulting co-author Linda.

    As far as I know, Beniof and Weiss aren’t the types to pop up out of nowhere on someone’s Twitter and say, “Hi, See You Next Tuesday.”

  343. Well this doesn’t really come as a surprise. And you know what? Life goes on. I will continue to enjoy the books and the show for what they each are. And that is alright with me.

    Wherever Martin decides to go from here, how he proceeds to get there and when, is really his choice entirely. If he writes or not, the pace he does it at and whenever he delivers the finished product is actually more than his choice, it is his right.

    He might want to hang it all up, call it quits, take a giant shit on it all and set it on fire. And you know what? That is alright too. After all he is the creator of this entire sandbox we all play in. He is its creator and author and like it or or not he gets primary dibs in all that happens…which is as it should be.

    Before all the nutbars, crazies, assholes, professional complainers, outrage artists and plain shitheads come out of the woodwork and skewer Martin much like overzealous and overcaffeinated “Star Wars” fanboys hounded Lucas for decades, let me say this. Years ago I never thought there would be a group of novels I would like as much as “A Song Of Ice And Fire” let alone a television series such as “Game Of Thrones”…on HBO of all networks!!! But there they both are! So I will continue to do so for as long as I can.

    And life will go on…there are more books to read, music to listen to, movies and tv series to watch, and given the state of affairs in this world of hours, just thinking about all this, much less getting to do it, marks me as very privileged indeed.

    To George RR Martin I wish all the best, much health, happiness and prosperity in the year and years ahead (and let’s hope for many more)!

  344. Mihnea,

    Wimsey,

    Good to see that others are ranking ADWD higher than ACOK too. I quite liked that book, even though I agree it could do with a good round of editing. The good in ADWD outweighs the bad, IMO. Loved the Theon chapters, followed by Jon, the entire Northern story in fact was very good, so were the paralleling Jon and Dany chapters.

    While I liked AFFC the least, I did not hate it the way some people seem to. The problem for me with that book were all the new POV characters, (other than Cersei and Brienne, who were known characters even though they were new POVs). I don’t care that much about a single Greyjoy, except Theon and to a certain extent Asha, or any of the Martells. Atleast compared to the regular POVs. And so far none of them have had any real impact on the story, even though that will certainly change in the future. But I loved the Jaime, Cersei, Arya, Sansa and even the Brienne chapters.

  345. Mescalinic: June 15, 2015 –I wrote:

    Crazy (impossible) Optimistic release date: Spring 2016
    Very Optimistic release date: Christmas 2016
    Optimistic release date: 2017
    Real release date: someday.

    Haha! 🙂

  346. Chad Brick: You’d be banging away at the download button starting about 11:58 pm like a horny sixteen year old boy whose internet had been out for a week.

    AFFC was nominated for a Hugo and has ratings superior to almost any major Scifi/fantasy book from the year of its release at Goodreads, despite the trolls. It’s easy to argue it was the weakest book of the series. Only someone with an ax to grind would argue it is a bad or even mediocre book. ADWD was even better, in large part due to the Theon chapters, which were off-the-charts incredible.

    No I would not, though I appreciate your efforts at amateur mind-reading Chad Brick.

    There are 7 Theon chapters. Out of 70, Chad Brick. Hardly enough to salvage a book

    You seem to have an issue with alternate opinions Chad Brick, but I’m here to help you through it if you need me. This fledgling e-relationship is important to me, Chad Brick.

  347. Lord Parramandas,

    To add to that, Linda called the Emmy nominations “Best joke of the year” and also called Dinklage “a waste of air” and that the most tragic death in the show was “the story”.

    She’s allowed all of these opinions of course (though she tweeted that it was “a fact, not an opinion”) but her comments directed towards the cast (especially Lena Headey, a “mediocre actress”, which is one of the finer things she’s said abut Lena, and D&D, who are “thoughtless, stupid and rude”) and the people who operate this site (she called Sue the Fury “a delusional nutcase” and “a pathetic nobody”) are pretty atrocious and unprofessional for someone who gloats about rubbing shulders with authors and publishers and the like.

    She recently stated that “The show is complete crap” and that it “offends me whether I watch or not” (and also “I am negative about the show because they took great books and turned them into a shit show”) so we’ll no doubt have a lot more of their nonsense in 2016.

    And if not, they’ll probably still turn out for Sky Atlantic appearances to promote themselves. As for people like The Dragon Demands, just ignore him rather than wasting possibly hours arguing with someone who will. not. change. their. mind. I do the same with his work on the Wiki.

  348. Valaquen,

    I am well aware of Linda’s comments. And The Dragon Demands’s regular contribution to the Wikia is probably the only reason, why the other administrators haven’t blocked him yet or at least demoted him.

    Like I said, it pains me to see GoT Wiki turning into another westeros.org site. I haven’t encountered a Wikia site that would be as biased as this one.

  349. Wimsey:

    All in all, I would hold up the six Arya chapters as optimal: we got a great start, beginning and end pretty succinctly there, and we got a very good contribution to “kill the girl, let the woman be born” from it.

    Though unfortunately even that storyline was inexcusably split over two books instead of all her chapters being placed in Feast. Something similar happened with those strange leftover Jaime and Cersei chapters at the end of ADwD as well.

  350. It’d be a bit rich of book readers to complain that the show will spoil the ending, given how often some of them have complained that the show has diverged from the books, undermined characters, dispensed with storylines, and generally not stayed true to the source material.

    We know that George has told David and Dan where he expects the story to end up, but we have no idea how they will get to that point or whether they’ll stay entirely true to it.

    The producers have altered various strands of the story to make them work for TV and be more palatable to the audience. They’re likely to do the same when resolving the entire story.

    It’s like the ending to Wayne’s World. They could go for the super sad ending, the Mega Happy Ending or even the Scooby Doo ending. They might do a Sopranos and fade to black just before we get a resolution.

    However the producers have the final seasons play out, they’re unlikely to directly mimic the way things play out in Martin’s novels.

    And anyway, nobody will know if the show spoiled the ending until they actually read the final novels. So…

  351. Valaquen: To add to that, Linda called the Emmy nominations “Best joke of the year” and also called Dinklage “a waste of air” and that the most tragic death in the show was “the story”.

    That’s rather rich coming from a woman who seems to have no grasp of the very concept of “story.”

  352. I don’t know guys, to me Linda’s absolute Number One Greatest Hit to Rule Them All is the unforgettable:

    Aww, sad that you can’t write your Jon/Robb porn to get off all on you own? Seriously, get your cunt-stained fingers off characters that you have no right to use. How about you go write some slashfiction about your neighbour’s children? I am sure you can masturbate to that too.

    I mean, is there anything that beats this? “Co-author” Linda for the win! We should all owe her respect, just like Dragon Demands does.

  353. Tywin of the Hill,

    Not so far from my ranking. However, Clash wouldn’t have made my top five. Wouldn’t have made my top 10 either. Book may be well written, but I completely lost interest when Arya started to roam the Riverlands and bounced amongst the war parties at Harrenhal. Cannot remember anything from Tyrion’s Blackwater chapters either. Only read Clash once and I had trouble finishing it. On the other hand I read Feast and Dance several times and they are more elaborate and perhaps with more errors in style in it, but storywise both held my interest for all new PoVs, including Cersei. ASoS and AGoT are just plain good in both departments for me.

    Rygritte,

    Thanks! It looks like Ep 6 should be a blast. Which makes me wonder what they have for Ep. 10.

  354. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: We know that George has told David and Dan where he expects the story to end up, but we have no idea how they will get to that point or whether they’ll stay entirely true to it.

    To an extent, they can wander only so far from what George can do. Every bridge built in story telling burns hundreds and hundreds of other bridges. Look at it as an upcoming dessert. Basically, by the first book, GRRM said that we are getting pie in each serving, and a larger pie the end. What kind of pie? We cannot say. But we know that we are not getting pudding, cake, fruit and cheese, nut confections, etc. By now, we have been told that we are getting a fruit pie. Will it be cherry? Blueberry? Apple? Some mix of fruits? We don’t know: but it won’t be a custard pie, a mincemeat pie, etc.

    The show and the the books have the main characters in similar situations. We’ve gotten some strong hints from what we’ve seen that this year’s story is going to involve characters “on the lam” in one way or another trying to persuade others not simply to pardon them, but to follow them. That’s the fruit. And because it’s GRRM, that means that the story is going to focus on the internal compromises necessary for Jon, Daeny, Arya, Bran and Tyrion to do these things. That, of course, is the pie.

  355. Hodor,

    You should do some research as to how offensive the R word is. Then open a thesaurus and search for the words you actually wish to use. If one wishes to insult, then go about it in a smart way.

  356. Valaquen,

    I wonder why she is still doing the job of translating the GoT …the show which she hates that much ..

    I really hope that D&D stop giving her invition for season premiere or giving the screeners

  357. dragonbringer,

    She is doing it to earn money, nothing else. She is a parasite and George would be better off severing ties with her. She is part of the reason I have not bought nor will ever buy TWOIAF. She gets not one penny off me.

  358. The Dragon Demands:
    I’d like to point out the irony of criticizing measured analysis of Benioff and Weiss’s work, while at the same time, bluntly insulting co-author Linda.

    Besides pointing out lies, as pretty much nothing you write in the wiki or anywhere else could be described as “measured analysis” (and you ban anyone who tries to edit your mad and maddeningly long pointless essays), would you also like to just… go away? Both from here and the wiki too, if at all possible. I’m sure many in the community would appreciate it. Thank you very much.

  359. Do you think Martin’s going to release more WoW chapters now? If so, which?
    I just hope he releases one of the chapters he’s already read, but not let record, like Tyrion I or Victarion.

  360. Rygritte,

    I think you forgot that not all of the audience reads the books – most unsullied cannot recall characters from a few episodes ago – at least not their names and all crucial details which go with the character.

    I think there is no way Bran will make his first appearance in episode 5. Especially since most people aren’t really sure what is going on in that tree to begin with.

    He will be reintroduced to the audience by the end of episode 2 I believe.

  361. Angela,

    I think the best news out of this is that GRRM is capable of being late for his own funeral, and so will potentially live to finish ADOS.

  362. Tywin of the Hill,

    You know i did thought about this too,if he is so worried that the tv show will spoil some plotlines,why doesn’t he release those chapters which contain said plotlines like he did with the Mercy chapter,i mean they are going to be spoiled either way,i’m guessing it has something to do with his contract with Bantam where he is only allowed to release a certain amount of chapters before the completed book .

  363. Cumsprite: Hmmm. I don’t recall ever seeing a SF/F book NOT get solid reviews in major publications. I always found that suspicious — led me to believe that professional reviewers were SF/F fans trying to elevate “genre” fiction whether it was actually good or not. However, the reviews for AFFC among amateur reviewers (bloggers and whatnot) were decidedly mixed.

    Feast and Dance received mostly good reviews in major publications which are generally biased against the fantasy genre. That is a major marked difference. I was shocked at the time, to see two reviews in New York Times for example for Dance. One that praised it, and one that called Martin a exceptionally gifted storyteller (or something equally pretentious) while pointing out some clear faults like jet pack for Tyrion, too many numbers of “waddling” (you’d have been proud should you have read that, because it was almost like reading your complaints 4 years later) and other smaller stuff.

  364. Tyrion the myrion:
    i’m guessing it has something to do with his contract with Bantam where he is only allowed to release a certain amount of chapters before the completed book .

    I guess so too. If he gives away too much of the book, Bantam will start to think they’re losing money. Hence why I think he’ll only release already known chapters.

  365. TormundsWoman: Which makes me wonder what they have for Ep. 10.

    I should have moved

    Umbers, Karstarks, Boltons & wildlings dead to E10. Arya has to make it to the Riverlands and Jaime has to leave between E8-E10. Other than that, not much info.
  366. Can’t say I am surprised. It wouldn’t bother me so much if the show hadn’t plummeted in quality, but unfortunately it has 🙁

  367. Al Swearengen:
    Can’t say I am surprised. It wouldn’t bother me so much if the show hadn’t plummeted in quality, but unfortunately it has

    The show “dropped in quality” because that’s exactly what happened when books 4 and 5 were released.

  368. Rygritte,

    Oh, I wasn’t criticizing or anything for you leaving Ep 10 so naked 😀 . And you already said some is just speculation and guessing.

    I think for example that Dorne is going to show up in more than one ep, as you have it. Also I think Oldtown will show up more than once too, because Sarella might be in and I assume Sam will have to feature in more than 2 eps.
  369. Lord Parramandas,

    Sorry but no, you cannot shift the entire blame on the books. George didn’t conjure up Ramsay’s “twenty good men” nor did he have Brienne kill Stannis off page, nor did Ramsay rape Sansa, nor did George ever write the words “bad pussy”. D & D should be held accountable for their own poorly executed fan fiction ideas.

  370. TormundsWoman,

    I didn’t think you were being critical. I tried to keep the guesswork & speculation at a minimum while mostly relying on filming dates & sightings. Most of the guessing involved which director was on set. It was tempting to tweak it to make it more logical, but I’ll leave that to others. I wanted to add all known info, but I couldn’t match some of it with filming info.

    For example, we know Tommen hugs Cersei, but we only had info on Tommen in the area during filming, so I didn’t include Cersei. Same with Arya & Jaime destinations.
  371. Al Swearengen:
    Lord Parramandas,

    Sorry but no, you cannot shift the entire blame on the books. George didn’t conjure up Ramsay’s “twenty good men” nor did he have Brienne kill Stannis off page, nor did Ramsay rape Sansa, nor did George ever write the words “bad pussy”. D & D should be held accountable for their own poorly executed fan fiction ideas.

    George has plenty of bad lines and howlers (and disgusting rapes and molestations) of his own. And I’ll never get the cringe over the “bad pussy” line when we have practically every other character going on and on about “cocks”. The former, unlike the latter, is attested to in many medieval texts and was used as a term of endearment for women going back to 1580, with the vaginal association coming much later. Philip Stubbs’ 1583 moral tract ‘Anatomy of Abuses’ refers to “the boys who care for nothing, so that they have their pretie pussie to huggle withall” (he was complaining about licentious behaviour: casual sex with pretty women, etc.) And from the diary of Samuel Pepys, 1663: “There was the King’s Falconer, that lives by Paul’s, and his wife, an ugly pusse…” and also Charles Cotton’s Scarronides (1664-5):

    “Here’s a Health to thee,
    To Pusse and to good company.
    And he that will not do, as I do,
    Proclaims himself no friend to Dido.”

  372. So what if a person likes or dislikes season five? Or for that matter AFFC or ADWD? Be an adult and move on. Is it that hard or am I just crazy. Grow up and don’t throw insults towards GRRM OR D&D.

  373. TormundsWoman: Feast and Dance received mostly good reviews in major publications which are generally biased against the fantasy genre. That is a major markeddifference. I was shocked at the time, to see two reviews in New York Times for example for Dance. One that praised it, and one that called Martin a exceptionally gifted storyteller (or something equally pretentious) while pointing out some clear faults like jet pack for Tyrion, too many numbers of “waddling” (you’d have been proud should you have read that, because it was almost like reading your complaints 4 years later) and other smaller stuff.

    Even that critical review from The New York Times was a solid review. And, look, if The New York Times runs TWO reviews for a fantasy work I’d hardly call that “generally biased” against. If anything, that indicates a bias in the other direction. How about that TIME review from Lev Grossman? You remember that one, right? Where Lev Grossman anointed Martin the “American Tolkien”. That fellow is a fantasy author, who got a couple of blurbs from his fantasy idol on his books. Let’s not forget the synergy of Time Warner/TIME/HBO all in the same corporate bed.

    General bias against the genre my ass.

  374. Al Swearengen,

    You less miss the forest for the trees than the forest for the lichen on the trees! None of these things were important. Coherent storytelling is important: and last season very coherently told the Kill the Boy/Girl, Become the Man/Woman story. People who never read the books figured that out quite well. If you are looking for something other than story, well: then why do you worry about either books or television?

  375. Wimsey: Remember, it’s an artist’s job to imagine. The artist’s goal/hope is that an audience will appreciate the product of his/her imagination. But if we add our own imagination to it, then we necessarily are distorting their art.

    If art is not meant to engage the imagination, then what’s the point?

  376. I don’t put too much stock into reviews of book or movie sequels. A lot of times the reviewers will get caught up in the previous material and not give a proper assessment of the book or movie.

    I also think a lot of critics don’t want to look bad in hindsight so will often pad the material with what they think the viewers want to hear.

  377. Mr. Martin has always being all about subverting tropes, so I guess now Mr. Martin subverts the trope of being a writter… by writting nothing at all.

  378. Since GRRM published AFFC a decade ago, he has probably only written 1,200 pages maximum. Remember he had a lot of ADWD already finished. And he hasn’t finished an entire book since.

    So he has probably averaged 1,200 pages in 3,650 days, which is about 1/3rd of a page per day on average. And that is a nice estimate as it has actually been more days and he has probably written less pages.

  379. Nymeria Warrior Queen: If art is not meant to engage the imagination, then what’s the point?

    The point is to appreciate someone else’s imagination. The work of imagining should be on the artist and the artist alone. What makes the great artists recognized as such (be they authors, composers or whatever) is that they communicate their imaginations fully. And in a very real way, if we are forced to imagine things, then we are doing their work for them.

    Now, sure, art can stimulate your imagination afterwards – all artists are inspired by other artists – but for any one piece of art, we should be sponges, not props. (Audience participation art would be the rare exception: but that is done only in a “live” setting.)

  380. In a few weeks, we’ll be getting a glimpse into new material. In three and a half months, we will actually see the story finally continue. So it’s not the end of the world, people. I really like the books, and I would like the things to be different, but it’s time to be real: the only ending we will ever have will be from D&D.

  381. Davos: The longer GRRM takes to finish TWOW, the less shits I give about whether he ever completes ASOIAF

    Stannis: Fewer

  382. Al Swearengen,

    True George didn’t come up with those ideas, but creating more POV characters and subplots is what makes it more difficult for the show to adapt the books, which is one of the reasons they tried to streamline things. I did like AFFC and ADWD, but the content was considerably weaker than ASOS except for The Wall and The North IMHO. George is great at world building and characterization, but sometimes when it comes to move the plot forward for the characters he began with, he does struggle a bit. Casual viewers were complaining that S5 was boring while book purists were complaining about too many changes. How would you reach some compromise if the source material is only so good with those two books. I have a feeling they might have rushed Stannis’s storyline to make room for The Iron Islands, Bran, and The Riverlands to come back into the story. I don’t completely blame the writers for this, especially when they can only make 10 episodes a season based on the hectic schedules the cast and crew have to begin with. Sansa marrying Ramsay seemed more to move her plot forward into The North faster. Was it a good decision? Yes and No, but I think S6 will finally have her on the right path.

  383. Matthew The Dragon knight,

    Hahaha same here. I cannot believe some of the things I read. Yes everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But few things like that really make a show of such calibre decline in quality?? Really?
    I guess it tells you a lot when these people are part of the 1% of viewers who think that way. Ah well you can’t please everyone.

  384. Wimsey,

    *facepalm*
    It’s a damn good thing not everyone has such a narrow view, but, please, continue to dictate what you think the job of the artist is, not to mention the role of the audience, as though your opinion was not an opinion, but fact.

  385. Cumsprite,

    You clearly have not read many reviews of other fantasy books in NYT. Generally it rates somewhere between romance and erotica. Big Mac for them with a horror twist. If a sci fy or fantasy does make it into the “big lit” according to them, it will generally be praised for its characters’ “realism” or they simply avoid mentioning the genre. It’s a bias. Kind of like when you just know WP is Liberal and Fox is Repub oriented.

    Edit: yes, I remember Lev Grossman’s review. I also remember Martin being honored to be put in the same league and never thinking himself about the father of epic fantasy as we now know it! Just because you HATE the comparison doesn’t mean you have to flog a wealthy old man and ask him to slaver for the books.

    Lol oops, sorry!

  386. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    This is not a narrow view. This is what artists do: they imagine. You should not be imagining melodies or lyrics to a song while listening to it. You should not be imagining for Martin or any other artist: that is his/her responsibility. Hopefully, the audience is appreciating the imagination of the artist. Again, if the work requires you to imagine something for it to work, then the artist has failed.

    This is easy to rephrase. Remember back to university when you took literature or history of art or music or cinema courses. How often did the professor tell you how someone might fill in the blanks with their imagination? Never. How often did they tell you how to appreciate what an author/composer/sculptur/director/painter was doing? All the time. When you took the tests, when were you ever asked about what you imagined was happening in the background? Never. (That might come if you did advanced literature, where “Guildenstern and Rosencrantz are Dead” essays often are done.) How often did they ask you what an artist was trying to do with a work? All the time.

    Put another way: if listening to the Beatles makes you want to play their songs or even try to write songs as good as they wrote, then that’s fine: their imagination has inspired you. If you feel that the Beatles songs are missing key parts or lines, and you start imagining how to rewrite the songs, then you are tacitly or explicitly saying that the Beatles’ failed in their imaginative experiments. It is no different with literature.

  387. The Bastard,

    I like reading them. They won’t make up my opinion on the material, but at times reviews will point out things I never thought of. In the end reviews are just opinions. Maybe more informed because they share the same profession but still opinions. Some do make me laugh and are a pleasure to read and some will challenge me to think and bring some valid reasons why I disagree.

    It’s why I read others posters opinions too actually and it’s good to have diversity. Unlike one of the posters upthread I don’t particularly like a one sided view and I find it unsettling when there’s an echo chamber on the site. But to each his own I suppose.

  388. MeeraReed: I think you forgot that not all of the audience reads the books

    I did.

    MeeraReed: I think there is no way Bran will make his first appearance in episode 5.

    He’ll probably appear early when Summer starts howling, but we don’t know. He probably stays in that cave most of the season. I’m most worried about Meera. We haven’t heard a word about Meera.

  389. alcasinoroyale: I have a feeling they might have rushed Stannis’s storyline to make room for The Iron Islands, Bran, and The Riverlands to come back into the story.

    I suspect that there are other considerations. One of them is that Stannis is a secondary character: in books and on TV, he is there to create issues for other characters. He did step out a bit on his own on the show when they wrote him off, and it was done in a way in keeping with the story. And it did provide a pretty good dramatic climax. In contrast, his demise in the books probably will seem a bit anticlimactic, and we probably will not witness it first-hand because I doubt that any PoV characters will be there.

    The fact that Ramsay is demanding “Reek” back in the Pink Letter tells us that Theon got away: and that means it is quite probable that he was not present when Stannis himself fell.

    alcasinoroyale: Sansa marrying Ramsay seemed more to move her plot forward into The North faster. Was it a good decision? Yes and No, but I think S6 will finally have her on the right path

    It also got her to start evolving. Her character has been by far the slowest to start evolve, and I expect that they simply transferred elements of what she’ll face in Winter to her experiences in Winterfell. Also: I do not think that Theon alone could carry that storyline. Nor do I think that Davos alone could carry a “restore Rickon” storyline (as might happen in the book). So, moving Sansa up there puts the 6th biggest protagonist in the thick of things where the books are using much more minor protagonists.

    It also points back to the question of Sansa’s role in the whole series. She was not initially one of GRRM’s “Big 5” about whom the whole series would be. Moreover, whereas all of the Big 5 saw immediate evolution starting in the first book, we have not seen actual evolution of Sansa until the Winter chapter that was released last year or the year before. However, she has been a protagonist since the first book. And B&W have elevated her evolution and gone out of their way to put her into the thick of things.

    I know that we are getting pie, and I know that Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Bran and Arya are main ingredients. We still don’t know exactly what the pie is, or whether Sansa is going to be a prominent ingredient. However, the show suggests that she will be, particularly with modifications like we saw last year.

  390. Wimsey,

    Ahhhhhahahaha…

    So, now you know what this or that professor said to me or asked me when I took this or that course???
    Oh, that’s right. I forgot. You know everything!

    Hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahaha…

    I don’t think you’re trying to be funny, but you’re amusing the hell out of me, yet again.
    However, I’m going to go back to just laughing to myself over some of what you post. I keep thinking maybe, just maybe, you’ll be able to discuss things without dictating what I, or someone else, “should” or “shouldn’t” do, or how I, or someone else, “should” or shouldn’t” think, but it appears that just isn’t going to happen.

  391. RJ: You know little about the novelist’s art–the whole point is to bring the reader’s imagination into the story.

    Are we using the same concept for imagination? A novelist wants to make his/her readers envision what the novelist is imagining. The images that a novelist puts in your head should NOT be your imagination, but his/hers. Good novelists paint pictures with words.

    Now, if you are equating “imagining” with envisioning, then this is just a semantic issue. (Imagination should be used solely for things that you and you alone create in your head; however, one can envision things from their own imagination or from some outside description.) An author cannot want your imagination in his/her story: you won’t imagine what he/she is imagining, and your imagination will probably distort the story that the novelist is trying to tell. (Story is everything to novelists.) When authors are criticized for vague writing, in a big way they are being criticized for not specifically communicating their imaginations and specifically canalizing what you envision.

  392. I’m not disappointed at all. I’m a reader & avid TV show watcher. I enjoy the differences between show & books. For me, I see them as two different & alternate universes. It’s twice the enjoyment. So, the more different the better actually. I also think the later the books come out the better because it will extend the life of ASOIAF. I don’t want the end to come so soon. Then what?

  393. The Dragon Demands:
    I’d like to point out the irony of criticizing measured analysis of Benioff and Weiss’s work, while at the same time, bluntly insulting co-author Linda.

    …Did you even read the Linda quotes he posted…?

  394. Look I really don’t want to yell at anyone on here. Sorry.

    Getting on topic: I’m really only mildly disappointed that book 6 won’t come out before season 6.

  395. Nymeria Warrior Queen: Oh, that’s right. I forgot. You know everything!

    Don’t be childish. Although I am far from omniscient, I do pay attention to what I’ve learned. Indeed, because I know that I am far from omniscient, I go out of my way to learn things about which I did not know. Once upon a time, I knew nothing about literature. Next to real experts (and I’ve known a couple), I still know next to nothing. However, I have diminished my ignorance considerably over the years simply by asking “what does this mean?”, “what is the goal of this?” and similar questions.

    But put the shoe on the other foot. Suppose that you were writing a novel. You would know that it is critical that you communicate what you are imagining lucidly. You would know that if the readers starts imagining things on his/her own, then it is going to increase the chance that they will fail to grasp whatever story it is that you are trying to tell. After all, at best their imaginings will be random noise; at worse, those imaginings will contradict things that you imagined and on which your story depends. To this end, it will be your job to communicate your imagination (and your editor’s job to catch places where you might not be communicating it adequately).

    Otherwise, we should just declare coloring books the highest form of art! 😀

  396. Not sure why this bothers anyone. I’m actually quite happy. The TV show was always going to finish before the books. Remember there’s still A Dream of Spring after this!
    I’d rather he take the time to get it how he wants to tell it than try and chase an impossible target/deadline.
    Only minor worry is that I find the weakest parts of the show tend to be those that don’t have the books as a guide (whether exactly or sensibly adapted). With less book to work with then I hope these don’t become more common…although it’s going to be hard to tell until we can look at them both retrospectively!

  397. Wimsey:
    Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    This is easy to rephrase. Remember back to university when you took literature or history of art or music or cinema courses. How often did the professor tell you how someone might fill in the blanks with their imagination? Never.

    I hope other people are as perplexed by the audacity of this statement as I am.

    Wimsey:

    It also points back to the question of Sansa’s role in the whole series. She was not initially one of GRRM’s “Big 5” about whom the whole series would be. Moreover, whereas all of the Big 5 saw immediate evolution starting in the first book, we have not seen actual evolution of Sansa until the Winter chapter that was released last year or the year before.

    “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

  398. Wimsey: Remember back to university when you took literature or history of art or music or cinema courses. How often did the professor tell you how someone might fill in the blanks with their imagination? Never. How often did they tell you how to appreciate what an author/composer/sculptur/director/painter was doing? All the time.

    I know you will not agree on that, because aparently that’s simple how you are wired (which is a shame, because you have a lot of interesting things to say), but in modern times this way of teaching as been challengened on many levels. The idea of the autor as the genius (in the literarily sense) is amlost dead now.
    Some reasons for that were the publication of “The Death of the Author” by Roland Barthes and the ideas of post-structuralism in general.
    That does not mean of course that the good old question “What was the autors/artists intention?” is dead, but it is just as valid to “fill in the blanks with [your] imagination” or more to the point, recognize that the reader/recipient and the time periode, milieu etc. he or she is living in will have an effect on the interpretation of the text, painting etc.
    And that is not even talking about some extreme definitions of art, artist and the point of the job of these to entities like they can be found in Dada for example.

  399. Wimsey:

    It also got her to start evolving.Her character has been by far the slowest to start evolve, and I expect that they simply transferred elements of what she’ll face in Winter to her experiences in Winterfell.Also: I do not think that Theon alone could carry that storyline.Nor do I think that Davos alone could carry a “restore Rickon” storyline (as might happen in the book).So, moving Sansa up there puts the 6th biggest protagonist in the thick of things where the books are using much more minor protagonists.

    It also points back to the question of Sansa’s role in the whole series.She was not initially one of GRRM’s “Big 5” about whom the whole series would be.Moreover, whereas all of the Big 5 saw immediate evolution starting in the first book, we have not seen actual evolution of Sansa until the Winter chapter that was released last year or the year before.However, she has been a protagonist since the first book.And B&W have elevated her evolution and gone out of their way to put her into the thick of things.

    I know that we are getting pie, and I know that Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Bran and Arya are main ingredients.We still don’t know exactly what the pie is, or whether Sansa is going to be a prominent ingredient.However, the show suggests that she will be, particularly with modifications like we saw last year.

    I’m still betting that Sansa survives the series and becomes Queen in the North. I mean that could be optimistic, but after everything she’s experienced and her slow evolution it’s definitely building up to something. I think S6 will probably lead more towards this since I think she’ll have a bigger role in reuniting the North before Snowbowl happens.

  400. Cumsprite,

    “Churn out garbage”. That’s actually a perfect sentence for NYT book review.
    There is garbage everywhere, wake up and smell the roses Mr. Sprite. Just as there is good in all genres. Why do you always get on your high horse about Martin, the American Tolkien, and his work ethic?! You are impossible to talk to when you get into these moods.

  401. Rygritte,

    As am I. As a fellow Meera (Meara actually), I am very much interested in her story. Not to mention her last name is that of the most intriguing family in the series.

  402. mariamb,

    You’re welcome, and Happy New Year to you (and everyone here at WotW), too! 🙂

    alcasinoroyale,

    With the confirmation we will not have TWOW before season 6 begins, I’m even more excited for the season. I think it is going to be so much fun viewing the season with mostly Unsullied eyes!

  403. Hey, almost everyone I know to ‘chat’ to is posting in this thread, so hi all *360 degree waving*.

    Esmerelda
    If you’re still after answers:
    Why do you keep returning to the Watchers on the Wall?
    I’m interested in what’s going to happen on the show. Not good with tension and found I preferred to have at least a rough idea of upcoming shocks rather than have them sprung on me. Stumbled on a resource of insight and interesting ideas by accident, liked it and stayed.
    Do you feel a part of the community here?
    Yes definitely. After you’ve been reading for a while you get a feel for what the other posters are like and start to feel like you know them. Tentatively joined in, had some encouraging reponses of the yes I agree with you/like your idea type and that was it, off I went blah, blah, blah.
    What is so engaging about this site?
    Content-wise it’s full of interesting stuff but I like reading people’s posts and chatting to them. I’ve ‘met’ people from all over the world on here and am gonna miss everyone when it’s all over. Well almost everyone, there is the occasional person who just seems hell-bent on arguing and being as obnoxious as possible, but I just ignore them! 😀

  404. Al Swearengen,

    Lol! No way you have hardcovers for the first 3 books! That means you’re only at 40% bookwank.

    Lulus Mum,

    It’s a new year Lulu’s Mom! Hope you had some good first days. It’s gonna get bumpy soon GoT wise…

  405. Wimsey,

    Hey Wimsey a question for you, you always seems to ignore sansa when it comes to speaking of leading characters, is that based on books? because in the show which i devoured there is nothing to suggest that arya for example is more important than her sister to the overall structure of story and in fact based on things that we know from sansa’s storyline in season 6 it’s actually the opposite if indeed she’s going to play a major role in you know what. I’m not saying this just because she’s my favorite in this tale, i’m arguing based on what is represented in the show and in the she is definitely among top 6.

    Happy new year by the way, sincerely hope that it’ll be packed with happiness for you.

  406. Daughter of Winter,

    She has 2/3 chapters in AFFC(and nothing really happens in them) and none in ADWD I guess that’s why he thinks she may not be a leading character.

    I don’t agree here, but I see why he would belive that.

    In the show it’s harder too argue that, they clearly portraid her as important.

  407. Mihnea,

    I know Al, and I know his views on some show issues. I don’t think he’s trolling on those (show Dorne, Yara at Dreadfort, Jaime /Cersei etc) as I have read full paragraph comments from him on these issues on other boards and why he thinks they are crap in the show. Does he troll with “D&D fan fic”? Oh, definitely. Lol but to me he’s funny even when he does.

  408. Rygritte,
    Apologies if I’m just stating the obvious here and that’s why you haven’t included it, but I imagine a large chunk of ep 10 will be

    the fallout from Snowbowl. I don’t think we have any clear idea which way it goes at the moment do we? ie who wins, potential casualties etc. Sounds like most of the characters from the North, the Wall, north of the Wall and possibly the Vale storylines could be involved or directly affected by it? Also, if there’s stuff going on in the Riverlands at that point, a clear win or defeat for one side might tip the balance there. If say Team Bolton do really badly (PLEEEEEEEAAAASSSSSEEEEE) that might put the remaining Freys in a dangerous position as they’ve lost their Northern allies?

    If anyone remembers me saying a while ago I knew a little bit of insider info about a certain scene, I just want to stress that I really do have no clue exactly who’s involved or what happens and nothing I’ve ever said about it is anything other than guesswork based on what we’ve already seen on this site. House Mum: We Do Not Spoil! 😀

  409. TormundsWoman:
    Cumsprite,

    “Churn out garbage”. That’s actually a perfect sentence for NYT book review.
    There is garbage everywhere, wake up and smell the roses Mr. Sprite. Just as there is good in all genres. Why do you always get on your high horse about Martin, the American Tolkien, and his work ethic?! You are impossible to talk to when you get into these moods.

    I am overcome by the vapours! I really should set a spell for I am not fit company for polite society.

    There is garbage in every corner of the literary world. I’ve been reading genre for a long ass time, it just seems that for every China Mieville there are 1000 Curt Benjamins. In my experience, if you randomly grab a book off the mainstream fiction shelf you are more likely to enjoy it than if you had snatched one from the fantasy section.

    HELLO LULU! Tormundswoman is being mean to me again. I require succor. Perhaps a cool washcloth and some sweet tea with lemon.

  410. Tywin of the Hill,

    Speaking of Bantam, while releasing too many chapters of TWOW might lose them a few Coppers, imagine the loss if GRRM simply is unable to complete TWOW and ADOS. (As a lawyer, I’d love to see that writer-publisher contract and its damages provisions if such should occur).

    With all that at stake (and contractual obligations), I wouldn’t be surprised if Bantam has an ASOIAF-savvy ghost writer ready to fly to Santa Fe to work with him in order to get his ideas organized and transposed to the written word.

  411. Cumsprite,

    I don’t think they do sweet tea across the pond, sugar.

    Lulu’sMum – In case you didn’t already know this, when Spritey says “succor,” run!!! The only time you’d need to be more fleet of foot is if Rygar said it.

    alcasinoroyale,

    Should Sansa become Queen in the North, is there anyone in particular you see at her side?

  412. Tormund’s Woman still has my back after all this time….

    http://media1.giphy.com/media/xTiTnnDBu4yH1hVyDu/giphy.gif

    She deserves to have “Twenty Good Men” lining up at her door asking for her hand in marriage! That lady is a saint trudging through the muddy waters of this cesspool. She’s far too classy to every speak like that trollop Tyene Sand and she would kick Ramsay’s ass before he ever laid a hand on her!

  413. Wow…I go on a hiking weekend and come back to a big fat uggghhh! Oh well, the pessimists have won, again.

  414. Angela,

    I’m glad you had fun! Wait a minute, you offered me a great suggestion about how I should celebrate my own birthday! Well, it’s a little bit until October, but it’s good to have things arranged in time 🙂

  415. Al Swearengen,

    You fit all that in?! Damn, you got good over time 😀 Yara and Ramsay I get, because I see it your way, though not as critical over it. Tyene, you know I like that line and is totally in sync with her personality. It’s deliciously low, perfect Tyene Sand. We will NEVER agree on that! I’m no saint and this is no cesspool!

    It’s good to see you post again, Al.

  416. zod:
    Just look at the number of POVs he now has :…

    19 POVs.. and most of them scattered through continents, meaning that there’s no way to combine them. There’s no way he will be able to tell the stories of all these characters in a single book… This is the AFFC/ADWD problem all over again.

    I really don’t think TWOW will be published any time soon (if ever).

    20 POV‘s, we disagree on one I guess.

    It’s not as if every POV needs a story in every book. I’m not talking about a AFFC/ADWD-split, but noting that Theon, for instance, did not have any chapters in ASOS – while not being dead. Some characters are having adventures that are narratively more interesting if we see them pop out when we last expect them. Such as..

    If/when Davos returns with Rickon, Shaggydog and a horde of Skagosi

    Than there’s also the difference between POV’s: Major and minor. As it stands, there are only twelve POV’s that can be classified as major.

    Major:

    Dany, Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime, Theon, Davos, Sam, Brienne.

    Minor:

    Aeron, Victarion, Asha, Arianne, Areo, Barristan, JonCon, Melisandre.

    And than there’s the fact that there’s quite a bit of convergence going on while you are saying: “No way to combine them”. Last time I checked

    Tyrion, Barristan and Victarion are in the exact same battle where Dany will eventually come back to. JonCon and Arianne are meeting up and Aegon wants KL, where Cersei is going mad, Asha and Theon are pinned at the same place, while Jaime and Brienne are hanging out together as well. Not to mention that if Jon comes back.. Mel will be there.

    So, what in your eyes seems to be “no way to combine them” to tell their story, in the course of the book, GrrM could combine these to tell the same story:
    1. Jaime and Brienne.
    2. Tyrion, Victarion, Barristan and eventually Dany.
    3. JonCon, Arianne and eventually Cersei when Aegon hits KL.
    4. Theon and Asha, and eventually Aeron if Asha’s plans to annul the KM.
    5. Jon and Melisandre, if Jon comes back. And if the show is anything to go by, hello Sansa!

    So who’s left? Sansa, Arya, Bran, Sam, Davos, Areo. Which brings us to defining these characters. Obviously Arya and Sansa are going to be involved throughout the book, while we might get a sporadic update on Bran, which could in turn give us updates on storylines through the weirnet. Than there’s Davos, Sam and Areo, which in all honesty can miss three quarters of the book without much trouble. I mentioned Davos above. Sam studying can be only interesting for so long (until Euron hits) and Areo is only necessary as our eyes in Dorne. Which is not the most important place to be as Arianne is working for Dorne, outside of Sunspear. So he’s only necessary if Doran has some big reveal left, or heck, Dany arrives at Dorne and we don’t see it through her eyes, but the Watcher‘s…

    So while the story is huge, he can combine quite a few to tell the same events and thus limit the amount of chapters each character needs.

  417. Hodors Bastard:
    Wow…I go on a hiking weekend and come back to a big fat uggghhh! Oh well, the pessimists have won, again.

    Some of them must’ve been realists, surely.

  418. Cumsprite,

    I lost my post! I freaking lost my post!!!! I AM MARTIN.

    You’d have liked it I think. I was telling you, you need to read up on your Regency lit and that I’ve see you clutch your pearls better and that Austen wouldn’t approve of your choice of words and that the ratio you’ve posted for fantasy vs current fiction is probably skewed and some other stuff.

    I LOST MY POST. How fitting 🙁

  419. TormundsWoman,

    After that shocking leftfield Tyene defense you’re now dead to me! *Al turns his back and hmph’s

    It’s good to see you again my lady 🙂

  420. Mihnea,

    Well that shows a great deal of ignorance from GRRM towards the character and thank the lord this isn’t the case with show, not at all.

    By the way Mark Addy played Robert in season 1 in case you missed my earlier reply to you in this thread.

  421. Mmm seems I am now officially posting spam. Let’s try again from scratch.

    TW and NWQ
    Hi ladies and happy new year. Way too old for spinning around quickly prefer this sedate pace (at around 9 secs). Also, check out Cersei leaping into action at 1 min 23 😀

  422. Cumsprite,
    [said in a dissaproving tone your mum would use if you’re in trouble] Spriiiiitey, play nicely! If you’re mean to to TW you can’t complain that she’s mean back. And if you are being very rude without me realising, I’m not good at running away but can give you a kick in the nether regions you’d NEVER forget. Plus my mini-side kicks, Bert and Ernie, have claws and teeth that can cause A LOT of damage. Be warned young man! 😉

  423. Shy Lady Dragon:
    Angela,

    I’m glad you had fun! Wait a minute, you offered me a great suggestion about how I should celebrate my own birthday! Well, it’s a little bit until October, but it’s good to have things arranged in time

    You should.

  424. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    It depends on whether she rules in her own right like Elizabeth I, but it’s hard to predict who she’ll end up with. In the show, the only candidates right now would be Jon, Gendry, and Tyrion. I mean she might even end up with Dickon Tarly or Podrick, but I doubt it. I can’t see her marrying Robin and I like the idea of Sansa killing LF with his dagger, so I don’t think she’ll end up with him either.

  425. Daughter of Winter:
    Wimsey,

    Hey Wimsey a question for you, you always seems to ignore sansa when it comes to speaking of leading characters, is that based on books? because in the show which i devoured there is nothing to suggest that arya for example is more important than her sister to the overall structure of story and in fact based on things that we know from sansa’s storyline in season 6 it’s actually the opposite if indeed she’s going to play a major role in you know what. I’m not saying this just because she’s my favorite in this tale, i’m arguing based on what is represented in the show and in the she is definitely among top 6.

    Yes, it’s based on the books. ASOIAF is a fantasy book series and the author spends a lot of time on the magical aspects of the series, which the show does not because TV audience do not find fantasy to be as palatable as drama. Characters like Jon and Arya who are more involved with the fantastical aspects have more book chapters compared to characters like Sansa and Cersei who are more involved with the politicking. Here’s a link that gives you how many chapters each character has:

    https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/POV_character

    As you can see, Jon has 42 chapters and Arya has 34. Sansa has 25 and Cersei has 12. On the show Sansa is in more episodes than Arya and is in as many episodes as Jon. Cersei is in more episodes than Jon as opposed to her book character! The show has also majorly changed Sansa’s plot, putting her in a story arc which is all about Theon, while Arya is continuing her story plot from the books. GRRM also mentioned Arya as one of the major characters of his story in his original outline (Sansa was hardly mentioned in this outline) and has always maintained that he knows what Arya’s ending will be.

    So yes. Arya is a more important character in the books than Sansa. GRRM has spend more time on character development with Arya. She has already finished training to be a master assassin and player of the game while Sansa is yet to start learning anything in the books.

    Also Sansa was one of the last Starks to be created as a character because not all siblings get along. She was essentially created as a foil to Arya and to betray the Starks. We shall see what GRRM has in store for her.

  426. bulzz:
    The first trailer will come out in january?

    no one knows for sure, but its a good bet depending when the last two season trailers released.

  427. I’m not entitled at all. If GRRM wants to walk away from ASOIAF entirely and work on other projects, or just enjoy a retirement spending the millions he’s made off of us “self-entitled” fans, that’s absolutely his right to do so. Shame on us for allowing ourselves to be duped into getting invested in a story that would never be ended.

    And it is our right to publicly place him in the same category with all the other mediocre fiction writers who write intriguing beginnings of stories but then can’t figure out how to finish them. He can’t have his cake and eat it too. If he wants to be considered a great writer and storyteller he needs to finish the books. Otherwise he’s just another J.J. Abrams.

  428. Lulus Mum,

    Don’t say that, you’re our precious Mum.

    Well i’m preparing for these incredibly important exams in next two weeks and four years of my life depends on them so it’s pretty intense. Wish me luck Mum wish me luck.

  429. Hodors Bastard:
    Wow…I go on a hiking weekend and come back to a big fat uggghhh! Oh well, the pessimists have won, again.

    It’s ASAIOF/GOT, pessimists always win…

    Just kidding, I’m still expecting a nice ending for the fan favorites who will be still alive by this point 😀

  430. Wow, lots and lots of opinions here!! Figured I’d add my 2 cents worth too. LOL I really enjoyed not knowing what was coming in the TV series because I didn’t read the books until between seasons 4 & 5. But I also enjoyed knowing what was coming in Season 5 (sort of). Either way it turns out, I will able to appreciate the books and series in whatever order I approach them. They are two different mediums and can be evaluated on their own merits. Art for art’s sake. It doesn’t work well comparing the two. I loved LOTR and the Hobbit which I read long before the movies came out and I loved the movies and PJ’s adaption. I think I’ll be able to do that with ASOIAF also – as long as I don’t have to deal with another JJ Abrams. That would be a real shame.

  431. Lulus Mum,

    You always loved TW best. Well, when I am keeping you company (in the nursing home TW will eventually stick you in), TW’s going to be too busy reading those dreadful Jane Austen books to CHAT.

  432. SerNoName,

    Well i simply do not care what Mr Martin has in store for her, i followed and loved this brilliant character and her journey in the show and she’s going to (hopefully) play a major role in something that i believe is the most pivotal part of this magnificent of a tale while arya is going to be very busy saving herself from this identity consuming hell that she trapped herself in ( which i very much looking forward to). Anyway Sansa, Arya and Bran are equally important to this story and obviously among the Six leading characters.

  433. alcasinoroyale,

    You hit on exactly what I was wondering. While there’s no way of knowing whether she’ll end up as Queen in the North, if she did, I wouldn’t be entirely surprised to see her go the Elizabeth I route. Her experiences of men are, to put it mildly, not positive ones, whether in the books or in the show. Other than her father, and we know what happened to him, she has been abused, in one way or another, by every man with whom she’s had any real interaction. Sure, all Robin has done to her thus far is knock down her castle and throw hissy fits, but his lack of stability doesn’t inspire any confidence for his future behavior, and even

    Harry the Heir, at least in my interpretation, is being set up to be potentially problematic.
  434. Daughter of Winter,
    Well the computer’s telling me I’m posting spam so I’m going for the (paraphrased) Tyrion philosophy of embracing your apparent faults so that others can’t hold them against you 😉

    Mum’s top tips: DON’T put off preparing for the exams, you can never be too prepared! Better to know too much than too little. People always say this but it’s true; all you can do is your best – but if don’t do that then you’re letting yourself down.

    Forget GoT for 2 weeks, it’s not going anywhere and you’ll have all the catching up to come back to as a reward when it’s all over. Lecture over and best of luck! 😀

  435. Uh-oh, Jets didn´t make the playoffs.

    6000-word post about the pains of being a dual fan incoming in 3…2…1…

  436. Cumsprite,
    Spritey, you know I always try to be fair and sometimes that means telling people things they don’t want to hear. You’ll always have a special place in my heart as the first person ever to send me my very own flaming bag of poo. Besides, think how much fun we can have when we’re both loosing our short term memories and can spend days at a time arguing about the same things over and over again. Duran Duran lyrics and GoT alone could keep us going for years! 😉

  437. Tywin of the Hill,

    Never mind, I’ve just realised. But I don’t think Martin will take their idea of a ghostwriter kindly. A while ago they discovered a Dance with Dragons draft with his editor’s annotations on it. He seemed to take her suggestions as seriously as Cersei took Maester Pycelle’s.

  438. SerNoName,

    Great summary. 🙂 I’m not as curious to see what GRRM does with Sansa’s character as I am with the show. GRRM seems to never intended her as a ‘main’ main character, and it will be interesting to see how the show plans to take a character they’ve decided to make more relevant and actually kick her plot into gear at this late stage. Late bloomers.

  439. I’m glad for the JJ Abrams bashing,the man is a no talent hack and it astonish me that so many people can’t see this .

  440. The Dragon Demands:
    I’d like to point out the irony of criticizing measured analysis of Benioff and Weiss’s work, while at the same time, bluntly insulting co-author Linda.

    Linda is widely held in low regard because of the things Linda says. No one else is to blame.

  441. The Dragon Demands,

    It’s ok sweety,we heard your cry for help,attention is what you seek right ? I think all that wiki propaganda that you do is really exhausting for you,maybe you should take a break,possibly undefinitely,maybe forever if you could and look up online dating or something .

  442. So how was everyone’s New Years? I made a resolution: no penis talk for 2016. And, Sue and I finally go on a date.

  443. Lulus Mum:

    Mum’s top tips: DON’T put off preparing for the exams, you can never be too prepared! Better to know too much than too little.

    How do you reconcile this with Ignorance is bliss?

  444. Mr Fixit: How do you reconcile this with Ignorance is bliss?

    While it’s certainly preferable in certain circumstances, I don’t think exams are usually considered one of them 😉

    Rygar,
    Judging by the timings on this website your first resolution lasted around 34 hours, 22 minutes or so? Not bad going if it’s your first attempt at giving up, cutting down is often easier than going full cold turkey 😀

  445. Lulus Mum,

    Well that was sweet, thanks Mum.

    And my passion about GOT isn’t just about visiting some website regularly, this story is and always will be an inseparable part of me and i love this as a fact therfore forgetting it for two weeks is simply not an option so your first tip, that’s sufficient enough.

    Thanks again for your kind response.

  446. After reading through George’s post I interpret “…months…if all goes well…” as meaning two digit months. I am of the impression GRRM wants to release Winds after the show has got past all his Winds material, or the material from Winds D&D decide to adapt. That way each stands on their own, this means no Winds till summer/fall 2017. Personally I’d rather it be this way so neither detracts from the other.

    BTW OT – Watched the first four episodes of Sense8 and the show is in my top 10, brilliantly written, acted and directed.
    “Beowulf” shows a lot of promise too, the series is going the mythological route as the ancient tales are told, rather than adapting them as a what really happened, stripping away the fantasy. After all, who knows what and who existed thousands of years ago, they are constantly finding ruins/fossils that predate the status quo timeline (by a considerable amount) the Judeo/Christian world and its benefactors have decided as fact.

  447. alcasinoroyale: George is great at world building and

    characterization, but sometimes when it comes to move the plot forward for the characters he began with, he does

    struggle a bit

    Hi everyone, Happy New Year. Thought I’d jump in and thrash around with the rest of you for a little bit.

    Over the past few years, I’ve read other opinions that attribute the recent meandering style and lack of plot resolution to the “world building” theory. George has created a magnificently detailed world and history, there’s no
    denying that. We here are among the thousands who happily spend a LOT of time immersed in the details of it. But, imho, not even George can know every facet of a world, even one that he’s created.

    I’m hoping the time will soon come when he’s, at least temporarily, satisfied with the amount of detail he already has, and continues on with his “Song of Ice and Fire” from the point of time he originally chose to start, with the characters originally introduced, and leads us to some resolution of their plights. Then we can have a completed view of what he imagined life to be at that particular instant. All good “songs” do the same: pick an instant in time and circumstance, then tell that story, leaving other facets to be illumined by different “songs.”

    Yeah, there’s that old saying “It’s not the destination, it’s the journey.” That’s only true a very small amount of the time. If the destination never has merit, then why bother to start anything at all? If one wanders endlessly, nothing would ever be accomplished, no other “trips” would need to be planned, human experience would have no use at all. If we’re all very lucky, maybe he will again see the beauty, merit and purpose in his original destination, and find the inspiration, momentum and means to complete the trip.

  448. Completely OT but to my fellow Vikings fans, season 4 premieres February 16. Yay!!! And it’s twenty episodes! ??
    Is it the series finale?

  449. Thronetender,

    GRRM himself has stated that once he has to flesh out the final destination of his journey, he loses interest in it. So no happy end there.

  450. Deesensfan,

    I’m so glad you mentioned Vikings. I’d meant to catch up on season 3 over the holidays, but it slipped my mind. Now it’s back in my mind, and I can make a note to remind myself to catch up on season 3. Thanks!

    Daughter of Winter,

    Good luck on your exams!

  451. flintstonewielder: GRRM himself has stated that once he has to flesh out the final destination of his journey, he loses interest in it. So no happy end there

    Hence my little declaration of hope, that maybe he will find an interesting place to reinsert himself into the telling of the story.

  452. flintstonewielder,

    Sigh… Well, time for everyone who wants to know the ending before being a rotting corpse in his coffin to thank the gods for having the TV series. Otherwise, we’d all be waiting for ADOS, coming out the twelfth of never.

  453. bulzz: The first trailer will come out in january?

    Super Bowl is Feb 7. So probably a little before that, so that it’s a point of conversation.

  454. Thronetender: If the destination never has merit, then why bother to start anything at all? If one wanders endlessly, nothing would ever be accomplished, no other “trips” would need to be planned, human experience would have no use at all.

    As I’ve already stated this series should be called “Waiting for (Godot) the Prince that was Promised”.

  455. Wimsey:

    Once again, we saw the same thing in Harry Potter fandom. A lot of fans warned of dire final fates when “obviously” important characters and plotlines were cut, and how bad Kloves and Heymen would look when these characters and/or plotlines were important in the 7th book. That Rowling was working closely with Kloves & Heyman meant nothing: obviously they were ignoring her! And then…. none of the cut characters or plotlines were important in the end.

    I don’t remember that! Do you recall which characters, Wimsey? I do recall being too attached to my pet theories, and very much disappointed by the ones that did not pan out, as you said. I’m still theorizing because I love it, but I’m not getting attached to any but the most obvious ones, I hope. There are definitely the characters that I root for, though, and I’ll be disappointed if they aren’t as valuable as I think they are.

    But when I came across that very early secret outline where GRRM named the five characters who would survive until the end, I felt much better about those I’m rooting for.
  456. flintstonewielder,

    Lol. Good call. I guess the silver lining of his post is that both his teams are done for the season.

    This thread is hilarious, btw. As soon as I saw the headline (late to the party) I had a feeling the geekdom was going erupt. Thank you for not failing me, watchers.

  457. Wimsey: Even decent novels are bad scripts, and the better a novel is, the worse of a script it is.

    I definitely agree that adaptation is necessary, and that HP movies suffered tremendously because they didn’t do enough. GoT and Hunger Games are epically better adaptations because they adhered to telling a good story above remaining faithful to all details of the text.

    However, I wouldn’t say that the better a novel is, the further it is from a script. I love Pride and Prejudice, most especially the 1980 version as well as the 1995 version. Both versions were really close to the book, which almost reads like a script and yet is a literary masterpiece.

  458. Deesensfan,

    Double season! Hellz yeah. I fear this may signal the end though. I am planning a trip to the homeland of my blood this spring- due in no small part to this show. Stoked!

    Speaking of Vikings. I hate to say it, but I need them to lose now!

  459. Wimsey: We had to see Jon punished for his deed of compromise, just as Daeny gets punished for her deed of compromise and Arya gets punished for hers, at the end of the season.

    I would think that compromise was a great quality of a leader! I’m not certain how D&D feel, but I think that George might agree. I seem to recall an interview with him at the end of last season where the interviewer asked George about the big mistake that Jon made. George was all, did Jon make a mistake? I didn’t think he did. And then he backtracked and admitted that not seeing the conspiracy coming was probably a big mistake. But he acted like that was the only mistake Jon made. Perhaps I’m too pro-Jon.

    When I asked Martin what was Jon’s biggest “mistake,” the author thoughtfully replied, “Were they mistakes? I guess they were mistakes in some ways since they led to him losing control of part of his group. But it might have been wise and necessary decisions in terms of protecting the realm and dealing with the threat of the White Walkers. –http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-snow-really-dead

    And I’m reading more than Wimsey posts, but those just happen to be the ones that inspire me to respond at the moment.

  460. Davos’ Luck,

    That’s why I don’t bother posting there anymore. I was heavily involved in the speculation threads last season, but it’s pretty sad what that place has become.

  461. Deesensfan:
    Completely OT but to my fellow Vikings fans, season 4 premieres February 16. Yay!!! And it’s twenty episodes!
    Is it the series finale?

    Yeah, another Vikings fan here!!!!

  462. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
    I’m looking forward to watching the upcoming season without really knowing what’s going to happen. Sure, there will be things from already published material in there, but in terms of big events, I’ll be pretty much in the dark. It should be fun.

    Exactly! I’m sad that we won’t have the books, of course, but Season 6 will still be an unbelievably awesome gift with all of its virgin material. I think of how epic the Longclaw reveal was, but we ain’t seen nuffin yet!

  463. Ginevra,

    Yes-

    I found ‘Hardhome’ to be easily my favorite episode this year, and I think at least part of that was the fact that I had no idea what was going to happen! It was just a spooky note from a raven scroll in the book. I very much enjoyed ep 9 & 10, but in an equal but less intense way.

  464. Martin has order that in the event of his death that all future writing be stopped and all notes destroyed.

    I don’t think he really wants to finish the series.

    I think he would actually prefer the end to the story to be a mystery forever.

    That way people will talk about it forever.

    I think THAT would please him more than some regular old, all loose ends all tied up, ending.

  465. Thronetender: Hence my little declaration of hope, that maybe he will find an interesting place to reinsert himself into the telling of the story.

    Look, it´s not about the *telling*. It´s about *finishing it*. There is no point of reinsertion there.

  466. Esmeralda:
    Why do you keep returning to the Watchers on the Wall?
    Do you feel a part of the community here?
    What is so engaging about this site?

    Sometimes I catch myself getting carried away with the parley, but there are so many posters who present respectful, illuminating debate. I especially love the pre-episode and post-episode spoiler threads where together we get hyped, and then I get to immediately see brilliant insights, most of which I’d have never caught on my own. I love being part of a community who are as obsessive as I am, who analyze the details, and who want to discuss the same things I’m so desperate to explore.

    I haven’t visited a ton of sites, but I love quite a few things about Watchers. 1.) The site isn’t so big that I get lost, although it is quite big enough. 2.) The site loves both the books and the show, and man do I appreciate that! 3.) The site doesn’t knock HP. One site I was on, every time the nudity debate came up (which I stayed out of!), the pro-nekkid peeps were always, “Go suck your thumb and watch Harry Potter.” Being an HP fan, I didn’t appreciate that. Harry should never be an insult! 4.) The articles are really well written, interesting, and cover the news I most care about, in general, without covering crap that I don’t.

  467. Nymeria Warrior Queen: If art is not meant to engage the imagination, then what’s the point?

    But you’ve got to love Wimsey’s strict adherence to the clinical and the perpetually practical, right? You can’t help but love the passion he devotes to dispassionate exactness that leaves no possible scope for the imagination – Wimsey without whimsy. Or at least I can’t help but love it all. If I ever write a novel, there will definitely be a Wimsey in there.

  468. ron:
    Martin has order that in the event of his death that all future writing be stopped and all notes destroyed.

    Is this true? I have never heard this. If I’m completely in the dark here, can somebody please post a reference to this?

  469. Wimsey: Imagination should be used solely for things that you and you alone create in your head; however, one can envision things from their own imagination or from some outside description.

    No man is an island. No man creates anything alone, even in his head. We are products of our environment, everything we’ve seen, and everything we’ve read. Actually, I think the best imagination comes from borrowing. In days before copyright law, we had geniuses like Shakespeare who borrowed from everything but made it his own.

    Wimsey: Suppose that you were writing a novel. You would know that it is critical that you communicate what you are imagining lucidly. You would know that if the readers starts imagining things on his/her own, then it is going to increase the chance that they will fail to grasp whatever story it is that you are trying to tell. After all, at best their imaginings will be random noise; at worse, those imaginings will contradict things that you imagined and on which your story depends. To this end, it will be your job to communicate your imagination (and your editor’s job to catch places where you might not be communicating it adequately).

    One goal of the novelist should be to find a nice balance between communicating his or her imagined vision and leaving details up to the reader. Many authors deliberately write ambiguous heroes so that the reader can identify with and imagine himself as the hero. GRRM has been criticized for filling in too many details, especially of the culinary variety, but even his level of detail leaves a million things open to the imagination. That’s why we have a million theories. I respect that you personally don’t enjoy adding imagination to the works, but for most of us, that’s the whole point.

  470. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
    Cumsprite,

    I don’t think they do sweet tea across the pond, sugar.

    alcasinoroyale,

    Should Sansa become Queen in the North, is there anyone in particular you see at her side?

    I had lots of sweet tea there, in my two weeks. They serve it hot, silly English, but I suppose that burns off the drizzle.

    I do admit to shipping Sansa and the Hound. The Wolf and the Hound. They can have little pups. The Hounds of Winterfell. Sherlock: “I was barely in the dog one.”

  471. Happy New Year, my beloved residents of the Wall! I finally made it through all of the comments here (slow day at the Water Gardens) and it is beyond great to see all of the in-season regulars and “old” timers (no ageism intended) chiming in with the newbies and crazies.
    Season 6 is nearly upon us! With almost 700 posts on this article there is not much left to say except to agree that the books are the books and the show is the show and the twain don’t necessarily need to meet to make THIS tragic princess happy. If only i never had to read another post about Lindaaa and her toxic, hateful site…
    Esmeralda,

    Hi! If it isn’t too late to help, let me echo the sentiments of others above. I come here because it is the best one-stop place on the web for interesting GoT news, spoilers (if you want to indulge; conscientious protection if you don’t), and above all, well-reasoned, polite (as polite as the web gets), wide-ranging discussion of both books and show. Often hilarious, always thought provoking articles and discussions that rarely turn contentious and NEVER, thanks to Sue and her crew, turn to vitriol. That’s what got me here, and that’s why I keep lurking. And yes, I feel a part of the community [waves hello to the group :-)]. It’s a welcoming, layed back place–kinda like a beach shack bar full of nerds. As someone said above, it’s the place where I can come and
    be excited and obsessive and geeky with others that feel just as excited and obsessive and geeky as I do. I certainly can’t do that with my family; they already think I’m a little nuts! Also, as a suburban American housewife for many years, it is really refreshingvto share something with people from all walks of life and all parts of the world regularly. I learn something new about the world all the time. Thanks for the lessons, Everyone! And thanks to Sue, Marko, Oz, Mark K., the Great Creator (Winter Phil), and all the folks that bring me these lessons in a safe, fun environment. Cheers!!

    Hope this helps, Esmeralda. Let us know it how it goes. 😉
    [strange random characters that i can’t erase] –>ow I

  472. Luka Nieto,

    I’ve seen a few others also comment upthread that ADWD needed editing. Here’s the sad part: that was edited. He was plodding along on 1,000+ manuscript pages, and the editor said we can’t publish a fiction book as thick as an unabridged dictionary. So, as others have also said, he pulls out chapters from what became AFFC and made it ADWD.

    I’ve said it once, I’ll say it a thousand times. He’s stuck in the middle, the place many authors struggle within narrative. That he wove all these plot lines to deal with the aging up of the Stark children, and made up characters solely to plug plot holes (he said these things in public) has done nothing but trap him in his own web. The sad truth is people are invested in characters who were probably never going anywhere to begin with. I think GRRM knows this, and that only adds to the burden of the work.

    It may help him to write backwards. Or at least plot backwards. The overly extraneous plot lines would be revealed, and if he can face it, wrapped up quickly. That would leave the ones the story need, and make for a smoother process.

  473. Ashara D: And yes, I feel a part of the community [waves hello to the group :-)]. It’s a welcoming, layed back place–kinda like a beach shack bar full of nerds. As someone said above, it’s the place where I can come and
    be excited and obsessive and geeky with others that feel just as excited and obsessive and geeky as I do. I certainly can’t do that with my family; they already think I’m a little nuts!

    Hi sweetie – (waves back) Yikes, then you must be familiar with the strained, indulgent smiles, as though they were looking at a naughty child instead of a grown woman, the rolled- back eyes and deep, impatient sighs whenever you mention GoT! I thought I was the only one. Actually, my family isn’t that bad, but none of them like GoT as much as I do. That beach shack bar full of nerds sounds like fun.

  474. Ginevra: No man creates anything alone, even in his head…the best imagination …borrowed from everything but made it his own.

    imagination….for most of us, that’s the whole point.

    Aye, this. Gimme some truth!

    Ashara D,

    Well said, Mrs. Dayne. Happy new year to ya!

  475. Last year between January 8th and February 8th we had a lot of activity. The premeire date was announced, IMAX Experiene was annunced and launched, the first trailer was released and we also had the Day in the Life behind the scenes.

    You think it’ll be quieter this year, or will marketing be busy?

  476. Sister Kisser: Is this true?I have never heard this.If I’m completely in the dark here, can somebody please post a reference to this?

    Nope. Martin most certainly doesn’t want all his notes destroyed; in fact he periodically sends his early drafts and what not to a library so anyone can stop by and check things out.

    As for stopping work after death, that part is true. Not everyone is Tolkien or Jordan, who wanted others to continue their work. Martin is the sole author of ASoIaF and if he dies before finishing, well, tough luck.

  477. Daughter of Winter,

    Good luck with your examens! You reminded me of a younger myself, who couldn’t let her hobbies/ passions go during exams. More than that, a little bit of a book or a film I liked helped me go on with my studies. If I am allowed to give you an unasked for piece of advice, never forget what you are passionate for even if it has nothing to do with your carreer. I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you!

  478. Ser Oromis Locke: So, what in your eyes seems to be “no way to combine them” to tell their story, in the course of the book, GrrM could combine these to tell the same story:
    1. Jaime and Brienne.
    2. Tyrion, Victarion, Barristan and eventually Dany.
    3. JonCon, Arianne and eventually Cersei when Aegon hits KL.
    4. Theon and Asha, and eventually Aeron if Asha’s plans to annul the KM.
    5. Jon and Melisandre, if Jon comes back. And if the show is anything to go by, hello Sansa!

    1. Yes, I agree that he’ll only chose one POV for these two.

    2. “Eventually” is the key word here. Dany will be alone for a while before she reaches Meereen, and her POV is a given.

    Victarion will still be a POV, as evidenced by one of GRRM public reading.

    Tyrion will obviously be a big POV as usual (+ GRRM read two Tyrion chapters in his public readings).

    Barristan has at least two POVs chapters as evidenced by GRRM public readings, so he’s still a POV as well. So, no, none of these characters are going to be combined in TWOW.

    3. “Eventually” is the key word once again. Aegon hitting KL is pure speculation on your part… and Cersei will remain a POV no matter what… he’s not going to drop her arc all of a sudden, and she’s our only eyes in KL right now.

    Arianne has at least one chapter before meeting JonCon as evidenced by a public reading. He’s not going to drop her all of a sudden : she will be a POV in TWOW.

    As for JonCon, I don’t know. He might drop his POV in favor of Arianne’s, yes (that is if they ever meet).

    4. Jon and Melisandre will most likely be combined, yes. Hence why I included Mel in my first post but not Jon… might be the other way around (Jon but not Mel)… Either way you see it, that’s still in the end 1 POV… and since I only counted 1 for those two in my first post, that actually doesn’t change anything.

    Sansa is a big “eventually”. GRRM released a Sansa chapter from TWOW : she’s still Alayne and she’s still in the Vale, without any indication that she’s going to move any time soon. She still counts as being her own POV.

    Ser Oromis Locke: So who’s left? Sansa, Arya, Bran, Sam, Davos, Areo. Which brings us to defining these characters. Obviously Arya and Sansa are going to be involved throughout the book, while we might get a sporadic update on Bran, which could in turn give us updates on storylines through the weirnet. Than there’s Davos, Sam and Areo, which in all honesty can miss three quarters of the book without much trouble. I mentioned Davos above. Sam studying can be only interesting for so long (until Euron hits) and Areo is only necessary as our eyes in Dorne. Which is not the most important place to be as Arianne is working for Dorne, outside of Sunspear. So he’s only necessary if Doran has some big reveal left, or heck, Dany arrives at Dorne and we don’t see it through her eyes, but the Watcher‘s…

    — So. Arya, Bran, and Sansa are a given.

    — Davos could be left off-screen for one book I guess.

    — There’s something more interesting going on at the Citadel than just Sam studying. The original Jaqen is there. The last update we had on that was in AFFC : 10 years ago. And when is Euron going to hit Old Town if not in TWOW? Sam will be a POV.

    — Areo has been sent on a quest to kill Darkstar (he is of the night). So we “need” an update on that. Might be given off-screen, though. Ok.

    — You forgot Aeron. His POV in TWOW is a given since GRRM mentioned it.

    — Regarding Theon and Asha. Yes, I can see Asha being combined with Theon.

    So : Jaime/Brienne, Tyrion, Victarion, Barristan, Daenerys, JonCon/Arianne, Cersei, Theon/Asha, Jon/Mel, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Sam, Aeron, Theon.

    That’s still 15 POVs.

    Plus, the situation in KL is going to become very complex. Will Cersei’s POV be enough? He might hit another knot here and need to add POVs in that place.

  479. Esmeralda:

    Why do you keep returning to the Watchers on the Wall?
    Do you feel a part of the community here?
    What is so engaging about this site?

    1. WOTW is my guilty pleasure, I need its well written articles and clever, humorous comments which keep me connected to a beautiful world. Yes, it’s escapism to some extent, but also a declaration of love for some amazing books and an equally amazing TV show.
    2. I do feel I belong here. I can be myself (without fearing I could sound childish or stupid) and chat about something I love with people from all over the world who are no longer strangers to me because we share love for the same topic. I can’t do this with my family and friends because they are not interested in ASOIAF/ GOT and judge me for not acting according to my age.
    3. Sue and the other mods are great information providers (what would I do without the spoilers they give us?), talented writers (it’s really entertaining to read their articles, always juicy and witty) and great watchers to keep this site “a clean, well lighted place”. The comments put me in touch with insightful approaches and often make me laugh, remindind me to turn to the funny side of life.

  480. zod,

    I agree. I can’t see how he could possibly put all these POV characters in one book, creating a satisfying story for most of them and a logical climax of TWOW.

    No way. He lost his plot long ago. There is no turning back. GRRM is lost cause.

  481. Concerning TWOW’s potential 19-PoV’s problem that I’ve been reading about in these comments…

    It might not be as bad as all that. I expect Barristan to get two chapters in the Battle of Fire and then to be killed off. I see Areo getting one chapter in the whole book, in true Camera-That-Rides form. Mel gets one chapter when the White Walkers attack or none at all, calling it. Can’t see Jon Connington getting more than 2 or 3 chapters. He might even die from the greyscale.

    Sadly, similar goes for Davos. Could get as many as 5 chapters, as low as 3. But then, it’s always been that way for Davos. I think either Asha or Theon will die OR they stay alive with intertwined stories and one of the PoVs gets discontinued anyway, as it would be largely redundant. Similarly, a huge chunk of Brienne or Jaime chapters won’t happen, because of the overlap. Again, could even be a death. My prediction for Aeron is that he probably gets one chapter concerning his attempts to thwart Euron, and one chapter concerning Asha and/or Theon (depending on where their stories go). Most people assume Victarion isn’t making it to the end of TWOW.

    I think the only questions we really need to concern ourselves with are these: How in-depth are the training arcs of Samwell, Bran and Arya going to be? Doesn’t Arya really need to be heading back out into the world and putting that training to use some time soon? Is Cersei going to die? How big a role does Arianne (and Dorne in general) play? Will Tyrion and Dany overlap much, like Brienne and Jaime or Theon and Asha? And if Jon comes back, how early on does that happen and will the PoV status even be returned to him when it does? (I saw a delightfully creepy theory once, where someone postulated that Jon’s strange state of undeath means we’re no longer privy to his thoughts, since he’s now “absent”).

  482. Totally forgot to even mention Sansa. Again though, maybe not a huge impact on the number of chapters. My prediction for Sansa is that she does have an important role in the story, but it’s handled more by ADOS than by TWOW. Concerns Littlefinger and gravediggers.
  483. Ginevra,

    Hey Ginevra, thanks a lot dear.

    As i said in my reply to Wimsey i’m arguing based on show knowledge only which i must add is the version that does matter to me not the books and according to everything that is presented so far in D&D’s vision not only arya isn’t more important than sansa ( bran is maybe just maybe more important than these two with all that power but we’ll see) but all the spoilers suggest the opposite actually because if sansa actually going to do things that so many of us predicted during and after season 5 ( that particular northern storyline we’re going to see in season 6 is in my opinion by far the most pivotal part of the story because starks and their drama is the center of GOT) it’ll be more crucial than probably anything arya will ever accomplish. ( i must say that arya is my third favorite after sansa and jon so I’ve absolutely no intention of diminishing her or her purpose in the story she’s obviously one of the leads.)

  484. Shy Lady Dragon,

    Hi there Shy Lady and thank you very much, that was so sweet and heartwarming dear. Well my passion is 7th art despite studying history in university which i also love very much ( will continue in cinema for Master i must say) so no i won’t let go of something that defines who i am Shy one but thanks again for reminding me how important that is.

  485. Abyss,
    I think it’s from when Olenna goes to see the High Septon to try and get her grandkids released? He has a bit of struggle to get up those steps and asks her which part of the body she suffers with? Around ep 7 or 8 of S5 🙂

    EDIT: Ninja’d by zod. Morning all *waving again*

  486. Rat Kook,

    I am surprised so many people think Jon might not be back as a POV. He is one of the two most central protagonists in the story. He will be back. At least the probability of him not having his POV is very low. The only question is when will he be back. Mel will probably be a POV at the Wall till Jon comes back. Maybe even beyond if they get separated subsequently.
  487. Jack Bauer 24,

    Hardhome in IMAX? Yes, please. They can make it a Blackwater-Battle for Castle Black-Hardhome triple feature.

    E: throw in Dracarys there as well for good measure. Not the entire episode, just the scene. That’s still the defining moment of the series for me.

  488. I’m at a loss why people care when Winds is coming out….
    Dream of Spring will never make it out before the show ends. Its a guarantee the show will spoil the story…but you’d feel better having one more season you’re ahead of? Whats the point?

  489. Tyrion the myrion:

    I’m glad for the JJ Abrams bashing,the man is a no talent hack and it astonish me that so many people can’t see this .

    JJ Abrams talent seems limited to the TV format.

    I suspect the reason why the Star Trek and Mission Impossible reboots worked is because both franchises have their roots in television.

    Super 8 did not work (for me) because Abrams was a Spielberg fanboy, so obsessed with nostalgia, that the overall result was like a cliched TV movie. (And, it was not based on a TV series, so there were no pre-determined parameters he could just follow as if he were writing an episode.)

    He cannot think in epic, independent cinematic terms, especially if he’s a fanboy. Super 8 should have been the red flag to me about what Star Wars: The Force Awakens would end up being, but I so enjoyed his Star Trek films I didn’t make the connection. (Maybe someone like Christopher Nolan might have done something interesting with The Force Awakens.)

    Back on topic, I actually think Martin will deliver the Winds of Winter for the 2016 holiday season. Who knows about ADOS. I’m actually looking forward to him continuing the adventures of Dunk and Egg instead.

  490. Not surprising…. GRRM had 5 years to get this book done, but instead he chooses to spend 2 hours a day blogging, plus all his ‘appearances’ and other nonsense… its a slap in the face to his fans. The final book will never get finished. My guess is hell just stop writing after WOW and give the project to someone else. What a jerk.

  491. Flora Linden,

    You enjoyed Abrams’ Trek? Huh. Interestingly enough, I find Force Awakens just a cool movie (rehashed and all, but still…), while I can’t stand his bastardisation of Star Trek.

  492. Mr Fixit,

    Yeah, oddly enough, I thought he did a better a job with Star Trek, because he was not a Star Trek fanboy. No rose-colored fanboy glasses getting in the way. So what he brought to it was different and interesting to me. And it was a TV series first, so it suited his writing style better.

    I’m glad you enjoyed The Force Awakens. It’s not for me, but it’s good that some people got enjoyment out of it. Keeps the franchise alive, at least.

  493. Daughter of Winter,

    Ah, I see what you’re saying.

    As you probably know, but I thought I’d put up book spoilers for those who don’t, Sansa’s role in Season 5 was that of a servant’s daughter, Jeyne (posing as a fake Arya), whose arc will likely be over soon. I think it most likely, at this point, D&D will try to patch Sansa’s story back to the book Sansa story rather than writing new material for her, especially since they have invented very little new stand-alone plots. The Jeyne storyline needed to be told to develop Ramsay’s character and further the northern storyline, but they were easily able to sub Sansa for an unknown.

    I think it more likely than not that all major characters will end approximately the same way in the show that they do in the book, just as they started, so that the maze and the puzzle pieces all fit back together as designed by their creator. I cannot recall many instances where TV/movie endings for major characters diverged from their book counterparts. I can picture fans with pitchforks if that happened. And D&D have implied that, even though they diverge, they are all heading to the same place as the books.

    Weiss: It’s like looking at a landscape and saying, ‘OK, there’s a mountain over there, and I know that I’m getting to that mountain.’ There’s an event that’s going to happen, and I know that I’m moving in the general direction of that event, but what’s between where I’m standing now and that thing off on the horizon, I’m not totally sure. I’ll know when I get there, and then I’ll see what the terrain looks like around me and I’ll choose my path once I get closer to it. –http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/game-of-thrones-ending-season-5-producers-interview-1201469516/

    Luckily, we’ve been talking about this with George for a long time, ever since we saw this could happen, and we know where things are heading. And so we’ll eventually, basically, meet up at pretty much the same place where George is going; there might be a few deviations along the route, but we’re heading towards the same destination. –Benioff, http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/03/game-of-thrones-tv-show-will-spoil-books

  494. Flora Linden,

    As a major JJ Abrams fangirl, I have to stand up for him. As a statistician, I thought I’d stand up by giving you the stats so all can see how JJ’s sci-fi movies have been regarded by both the critics and the audience at large rather than by one or two anecdotal reviews from one or two fans. I do get how an extremely intelligent person can hate a movie based on personal preferences, but I would argue that these movies can’t suck if the vast majority of both critics and audiences love the films.

    Below are IMDb and Rotten Tomatoes reviews for the Star Wars and then the Star Trek films so far. The IMDb rating (which appears first and is out of 10) is mostly audience-based, whereas this particular Rotten Tomatoes rating is the percentage of favorable reviews from critics.

    Admittedly, review scores tend to go down rather than up after a release, but they do not tend to change significantly, more than a couple of percentage points, by the time a show has been out this long. Take into consideration that JJ is competing, in the first instance of Star Wars, against perhaps the most beloved movie franchise of all time! In the second instance of Star Trek, he’s playing to one of the most devoutly fanatical audiences of all time.

    Phantom Menace – 6.5 (out of 10), 56%
    Attack of the Clones – 6.7, 66%
    Revenge of the Sith – 7.7, 79%
    A New Hope – 8.7, 94%
    The Empire Strikes Back – 8.8, 94%
    Return of the Jedi – 8.4, 79%
    The Force Awakens – 8.5, 94%

    Star Trek: The Motion Picture – 6.4, 47%
    The Wrath of Khan – 7.7, 88%
    The Search for Spock – 6.6, 78%
    The Voyage Home – 7.3, 85%
    Star Trek 2009 – 8, 95%
    Into the Darkness – 7.8, 87%

    Did you have to scroll down to read all of my post? Just call me Jared! Seriously, at some point, I will be less verbose.

  495. Ginevra:

    Did you have to scroll down to read all of my post? Just call me Jared! Seriously, at some point, I will be less verbose.

    That’s a resolution that we can both work on in the new year! 😉 I’ve made a concerted effort to cut down those walls of text for the past several months, for my own sake as well as everyone else’s. I was moderately successful, but with my first post of 2016, I was back to my old ways. If I don’t top that character count for the rest of the year, I’ll be a happy man.

    That being said, if there was ever an article on which it was appropriate to let a comment run long and write more than is strictly necessary, I would say that an article dedicated to George R.R. Martin and his ongoing struggles with his next book fits that bill. 🙂

  496. zod,

    Me too, I was at the edge of seat, I think the first time since GOT started!

    I hope that HBO doesn’t allow its episodes to be leaked anymore! That was the real bummer for me!

  497. Ginevra: The Force Awakens – 8.5, 94%

    Ginevra: Star Trek 2009 – 8, 95%

    So, I was right – Star Trek is better. 😉

    If someone doesn’t like a film for whatever reason, then it’s a bad film for that person. If someone else likes it, then it’s a good film for that person. I’m sorry, but IMdb statistics will not convert me or the few people who didn’t like TFA. For us, it was not a good movie. And the reviews from others are not facts, that is their personal opinions as well.

    I agree to disagree. I’ve stated before I’m happy that others enjoyed the movie, and the success ensures more Star Wars films will be made in the future.

    OK, final comment on this ever.

  498. I don’t think GRRM is sorry that the book isn’t finished, I think he’s sorry he had to admit it wasn’t finished before season 6. The shame seems to be what is driving him crazy. It seems that if he REALLY wanted to write the book he would have made some sacrifices to do so (beyond missing a few Con events that he admitted weren’t fun for him anymore), like cancelling an event when he was inspired to write. If writing is an art and requires a muse/inspiration then if he cancelled something because he was on a roll (and cited that as the reason for cancelling) I’m sure his fans would understand. My goodness, they might even be thankful that he’s writing it!!! That being said, this is one thing I would do but I’m not GRRM and I can’t make him be me.

    I personally don’t care when or if the books are published. I’ll check tWoW and aDoS out from the local library when/if they do. In the meantime I will enjoy the heck out of the show because it is pretty awesome with the added benefit of having an airdate and an end!

  499. Flora Linden,

    True 🙂

    But you are a Star Wars fan??

    And I agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The fact that you don’t like it or the reasons why you don’t like it are your opinion. And the people who do like it, that is their opinion. When it comes to these things, they are never facts. Reviews and user votes are also opinions. The opinions of sample of people who have watch the movie, as not everyone votes.

    I think when you are in the minority, it is hard for someone from the majority (so the majority of people who liked it) to understand why you think it was bad.

    That is a different discussion on its own.

    Its too bad you did not enjoy it. Maybe you will enjoy the next one 🙂

  500. GRRM probably regrets taking that long writing break after season 1 aired more than ever, but the thing about the fanbase by this point is that no one seems dramatically incensed by his admission that he hasn’t finished. We’re all used to it now. Maybe we’ve finally passed through the five stages of grief.

  501. Deesensfan,

    Thank you for your kind comment. Yes I’m a big fan of Star Wars, always will be. I hope I’ll enjoy the next one, fingers crossed. 🙂

    OK, now this is my last comment. Apologies to others for this off-topic distraction. 🙂

  502. Flora Linden: So, I was right – Star Trek is better.

    If someone doesn’t like a film for whatever reason, then it’s a bad film for that person. If someone else likes it, then it’s a good film for that person. I’m sorry, but IMdb statistics will not convert me or the few people who didn’t like TFA. For us, it was not a good movie. And the reviews from others are not facts, that is their personal opinions as well.

    I agree to disagree. I’ve stated before I’m happy that others enjoyed the movie, and the success ensures more Star Wars films will be made in the future.

    OK, final comment on this ever.

    I agree with what you say. Episode VII wasn’t a total disaster.. but it felt off. It was more thrilling and entertaining than the prequels but the prequels, after all is said and done, feel more like original stories and Star Wars to me.

  503. Wow, went through almost all the talks, anyway I’m disappointed that WOW won’t be out but I’ll read it as soon as it gets here.
    Also up thread when a person/s mentioned that Arya was more important then Sansa, that’s not true as GRRM specifically stated all the Stark kids are important, Sansa has gifts like her siblings, they may have been delayed or stunted; but some how, I think they will appear near the end when the Starks could really use it.
    Also to help with my GOT fix; I started watching Outlander, I love it after the first two episodes I ran out and bought the first book I’ll get the rest as money and time permits, I don’t worry about the show spoiling anything as the books will fill in stuff not shown, and hopefully answer some questions I have such as :

    Is Claire’s reasons for staying with Jamie explained in the book?
  504. Grailking: Also up thread when a person/s mentioned that Arya was more important then Sansa, that’s not true as GRRM specifically stated all the Stark kids are important, Sansa has gifts like her siblings, they may have been delayed or stunted; but some how, I think they will appear near the end when the Starks could really use it.

    Sansa was not originally supposed to be one of the primary protagonists, at least according to GRRM’s “sales pitch” letter. Bran and Arya, along with Jon, Daeny and Tyrion were the five around whom the series was supposed to center.

    Looking back, of the protagonists of the Thrones novel, only the Big 5 and Sansa are still present: Ned & Catelyn both are dead. Theon, Jaime, Sam and others did not become protagonists until Kings or later.

    So, that leaves the question: is Sansa part of a “Big Six” or is she the last non-primary still standing? The show’s elevation of her role suggests that GRRM did so elevate her. However, B&W might have done that on their own: after all, the elevated Robb to a minor protagonist on their own.

  505. Reading around the net, I’ve been struck by two things:

    1) A lot of people seem convinced that GRRM has actually written nothing! This looks to be partially Grimmsian: it’s gotten around that the only thing he has is leftover stuff from Dragons (like the pre-published chapters).

    2) Man, a lot of people do not like Martin’s writing! That’s actually a common opinion among people I know: but I never trust the small and very non-random sample size that are the people I know. (Think: people more apt to read Booker nominees than to read Hugo nominees.) So, I do wonder if this is more common than I had realized.

  506. Wimsey,

    If they don’t like his writing why are they bothering to read and comment about him online? Some people have too much time on their hands and not enough real shite to do.

  507. Grailking,

    OT:

    Yes, Claire’s reasons for staying with Jaime are much clearer in the books because no matter how much narration the show tries to do, it’s never as good as being in her head and that’s what you get in the books. Their bond makes much more sense with that context.
  508. Wimsey,

    Why do people read things they don’t like?

    Same with, why do people watch a show they don’t like? (Linda and her followers)

    Come on, MAN!

  509. Guys, anyone alive from AGOT is part of the top tier chars, Sansa is certainly part of that. GRRM and D&D both have put way WAY too much emphasis on her if she isn’t.

    The Starks with POVs who are still standing have huge roles in this saga. Sansa, Arya and Bran haven’t done jack shit yet but that all changes this season/book, I feel. 🙂

    Also to everyone who brings up the outline, I’ll like to point out it has Tyrion falling in love with Arya and burning down WF and Jaime becoming king. The outline is irrelevant, outline Arya has combined elements of both current Sansa and Arya. We need to seriously leave it in the bin as it’s nothing but pure bollocks.

  510. Wimsey,

    You realize that Arya from his original outline bears not even the slightest resemblance to Arya in the books/show right?

  511. I love the books–I read them as they came out, so I have 15+ years invested in them. Frankly, I would rather George take his time and get them right (more importantly, give the editors time to get things right) and wait a bit longer than to have him half-heartedly finish WoW just to make a deadline. This is his chance to bring the series back to what it was in the first three books.
    Anyone who thought the TV show would not overtake the written series is a lovely dreamer. For me, I’ll wait on the show if I know for sure the book will be out this year. If there is no word by April, I’ll watch the show, blissfully unspoiled by source material.

  512. Will we get anything fro, HBO anytime soon? Maybe some character posters or pictures if they decided to keep trailer for February?

    kit_hepburn:
    Wimsey,

    You realize that Arya from his original outline bears not even the slightest resemblance to Arya in the books/show right?

    Everyone is different… in my opinion outline’s Jaime became Cersei and other characters while Outline’s Tyrion broke to Tyrion and Jaime , nobody of them burn Winterfell though..here comes Theon and it goes on…. only Jon and Dany remained as they were.

  513. Jared,

    You do make some brilliant comments, but I always have to laugh when I guess yours by its length.

    Flora Linden:
    If someone doesn’t like a film for whatever reason, then it’s a bad film for that person. If someone else likes it, then it’s a good film for that person. I’m sorry, but IMdb statistics will not convert me or the few people who didn’t like TFA. For us, it was not a good movie. And the reviews from others are not facts, that is their personal opinions as well.

    Thanks, FL. I completely agree that the film could be bad for one particular person and even many, many people. I wasn’t trying to convince you to change how much you did or did not enjoy the film because I realize that preferences do not easily change. Instead, I wanted to show that the movie wasn’t bad for the majority, and so JJ may bring some qualities to the film that are appreciated by most but certainly not all. For me, that’s enough to respect a filmmaker or writer, even if I don’t like what that person produces. For example, I’m not a fan of the original Star Trek, but I have great respect for the original creators because of the devotion and the following they created.

  514. Good point but I don’t think it works like that. If he’s on a roll it’ll be an in the moment thing and so he won’t just be able to cancel because he’ll be contracted to be there. And even if he decides not to attend conferences it doesn’t mean he’ll be in the mood either.
    I’d say his world is so complicated he’s just second guessing every move he’s making or questioning how he jumps from one plot point to the next. You can see that in the meandering a in the latter books, that he wants to be sure. I don’t mind thus though as it gives a real world feel to the books. Yes an editor could tighten it up but who is going to do that?

  515. Ginevra,

    Thanks for those interviews although i read them before.

    Among everything that was misunderstood by book readers about sansa’s season 5 storyline this Jeyne Poole thing annoys me the most, sansa taking the role of that random nobody was just merely the surface and book readers took this surface and used it to bash a storyline that i believe was full of deep character developing moments, others and Wimsey specially discussed this before and this is not a sansa topic so i won’t go into all that here, the season was packed with a considerable number of highly dramatic and beautifully written scenes for her ( everything from ep 5 and that magnificently crafted godswood scene are among them) but some people book readers in particular just failed to see and grasp the whole thing properly and all of this of course is my opinion so..

  516. Ryan:
    Not surprising…. GRRM had 5 years to get this book done, but instead he chooses to spend 2 hours a day blogging, plus all his ‘appearances’ and other nonsense… its a slap in the face to his fans.The final book will never get finished. My guess is hell just stop writing after WOW and give the project to someone else.What a jerk.

    Hey, it’s not for us to reason why. He is what he is and we are damn lucky he has written what he has. He is clearly someone with a literary brain which works how it works. He needs to work on numerous projects at the same time. So it doesn’t work for you but it works for him. So be it. That’s how it is. He will finish his ASOIAF series I have no doubt. He will just get there in the only way he knows how. Rather that than not at all. Not everyone can focus on one thing alone at the expense of all else. People with a gift don’t tick to a rule book in my experience.

  517. Grailking,

    I keep hearing about this show Outlander so I put it on last night. Watched the first episode and didn’t like it. Then skipped up to like #4 to see if it appeared to get better…nope. I think part of what ruins it for me is the lead actress. I don’t care for her fluttery, haughty facial expressions, it seems like she’s over-acting. And the FS they use is too slow at times. Switched to the Last Kingdom and it’s more up my alley so far.

  518. Bearded Onion,

    Dude (you’re a dude right?) I’m in love with you, seriously that outline nonsense which obviously belongs to the past always makes my skin crawl when people mention it, things are obvious about who is and who isn’t important for R’hllor sake specially at the current stage of the story.

  519. YgritTe:
    Grailking,

    I keep hearing about this show Outlander so I put it on last night. Watched the first episode and didn’t like it. Then skipped up to like #4 to see if it appeared to get better…nope. I think part of what ruins it for me is the lead actress. I don’t care for her fluttery, haughty facial expressions, it seems like she’s over-acting.And the FS they use is too slow at times. Switched to the Last Kingdom and it’s more up my alley so far.

    This. All of this.

  520. Gilly’s bonsaied baby,

    Sorry about the double post. The phone didn’t relay the reply function.

    Good point but I don’t think it works like that. If he’s on a roll it’ll be an in the moment thing and so he won’t just be able to cancel because he’ll be contracted to be there. And even if he decides not to attend conferences it doesn’t mean he’ll be in the mood either.
    I’d say his world is so complicated he’s just second guessing every move he’s making or questioning how he jumps from one plot point to the next. You can see that in the meandering a in the latter books, that he wants to be sure. I don’t mind thus though as it gives a real world feel to the books. Yes an editor could tighten it up but who is going to do that?

  521. Arya is pretty much the wildcard of the series. We have no idea what she is going to do in the endgame and that makes her more interesting then everyone else IMO.

    But if you honestly think she isn’t going to be important, then you haven’t been paying attention to this series at all.

    As for Arya and Sansa? The two sisters are more likely to end up on opposite sides of Westeros by the end of this story than anything else.
    Sansa will now never leave the north again, whilst Arya is the traveller and will probably head south.
    GRRM has said that the sisters need to reunite to sort out their differences. Doesn’t mean they will reunite.

    Daughter of winter, your fave character wouldn’t exist without GRRM so some respect to him is not out of order.

  522. Daughter of Winter,

    As a book reader I agree. Getting Sansa in the action was a clever move. If Manse was still alive as he is in the books it would have even been better but then again that would have made Theon’s on screen choice less dramatic and denied him the agency he desperately needed.

  523. Ryan:
    Not surprising…. GRRM had 5 years to get this book done, but instead he chooses to spend 2 hours a day blogging, plus all his ‘appearances’ and other nonsense… its a slap in the face to his fans.The final book will never get finished. My guess is hell just stop writing after WOW and give the project to someone else.What a jerk.

    Martin is a deservedly rich old man. He has no reason to work other than when it makes him happy to do so.

  524. Shy Lady Dragon: Sue and the other mods are great information providers (what would I do without the spoilers they give us?), talented writers (it’s really entertaining to read their articles, always juicy and witty) and great watchers to keep this site “a clean, well lighted place”. The comments put me in touch with insightful approaches and often make me laugh, remindind me to turn to the funny side of life.

    Ditto on the spoilers – I read them all. Smiled at the Hemingway reference. I would agree there too, this place is a very necessary place for many of us.

  525. Chad Brick,

    Actually it would be better if he spent less time at the computer. He needs down time to think and clear his head and let the story evolve. If he’s chained to the key board he’ll just be writing stuff that will be dumped latter. Some writers can work 9-5 but he clearly isn’t one of them.

  526. YgritTe:
    Grailking,

    I keep hearing about this show Outlander so I put it on last night. Watched the first episode and didn’t like it. Then skipped up to like #4 to see if it appeared to get better…nope. I think part of what ruins it for me is the lead actress. I don’t care for her fluttery, haughty facial expressions, it seems like she’s over-acting.And the FS they use is too slow at times. Switched to the Last Kingdom and it’s more up my alley so far.

    I’m just the opposite, I could only do three episodes of Last Kingdom, though I’ll make another attempt later to get through it.
    As for the lead actress in Outlander, well she’s quite pleasing to me.
    : > ) This does include her acting.

  527. Daughter of Winter,

    Yeah I’m a dude, :p and yes we seriously need to bury that outline already and hopefully this season helps in doing so, if Sansa’s s6 story line is any indication.

  528. Grailking,

    I saw first half of outlander before reading the book. Just watched 2d half. Claire is just such an annoying character for me. I get it, she’s feisty, but sheesh! She’s soooo stupid though–only character to rival Cat Stark in causing her own problems. The show seems to have made her tendency to be feisty at the wrong times and to the wrong people even worse, but it’s no fault of the actress. book and show are less cerebral, to say the least than ASOIAF. But outlander definitely pornier!

  529. I’m late posting about this and it probably won’t be read but I’d still like to say a few things.
    First, as a very amateur writer who is in the process of reading ASOIAF for the first time, I can’t fathom what it takes to write content of this magnitude. I’ve read both science fiction and fantasy novels and have never come across such intricacy and expansive character and location information that somehow manages to come from ones mind the way it does in these books. As a reader it’s hard to keep track of so I can’t even imagine what it’s like for the author.
    Second, I just want him to write with the same amount of interest and passion he has for his previous works. If that means he needs to take longer then so be it. I would much rather quality than halfheartedness or discrepancies due to feeling under pressure.
    Yes, I can see that he was swept away by the show’s success and all that it asked of him as the creator of the content, probably being among the biggest contributing factors to his attention being taken away from his writing but he is human as we all are. He clearly wanted to be a large part of the process at the time. It seems that he is regretting some of it now, but there’s nothing anyone can do about it and looking back on what ifs certainly won’t change anything.
    My only worry is his health and whether this series in it’s entirety will be finished by his own special hand. I’m not worried about seeing seasons of the show before or after reading books. I’m quite good at differentiating between them and really, as I’m reading each book I’m seeing larger deviations from the source material, as well as a large wealth of information that hasn’t been and isn’t being used in the show to the point it almost seems like two different stories at times. Both being enjoyable and extremely well done on their parts I might add.
    But again, as someone who writes, it is ALL about having the passion to do it. That is what it took George to get this far and that’s all I want from him for the remaining books, even if it takes longer. He needs to just sit back and get lost in his world once again and when that happens I’m sure it will flow from him with a lot of ease 🙂

  530. On the outline…There was a lot that GRRM has changed from the outline, but there was a lot that he kept. Ned, Robb and Cat still die in the outline, although Outline Robb and Outline Cat die under different circumstances than in the books (battle and wight attack, respectively). Winterfell is still sacked and burned. Tyrion still goes into exile with his relatives plotting against him. Arya still has Needle. Tyrion has a sibling conspiring against him and seeking power. Dany is still planning an invasion. And so on. Dismissing the outline in its entirety as garbage is nonsensical.

    GRRM promised in the outline that five characters would be the central characters and would survive the series: Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya, and Bran. It’s fair to state that at the time of the outline, he viewed Arya as more important than Sansa. We also know not only that Outline Sansa gave birth to Outline Joffrey’s son (pretty much the last mention of Sansa in the outline), but also that Outline Jaime murders everyone ahead of him in the line of succession to claim the throne. Putting these two bits of information together, and assuming Sansa would object to the murder of her son, I think we can assume that Outline Sansa was probably murdered fairly early on in the planned books, and that Outline Sansa was essentially a nobody.

    It’s true that Book Sansa is of far more importance to ASOIAF than Outline Sansa was to the outline and appears to have outlived Outline Sansa, since Book Sansa safely escaped Cersei (Outline Jaime) while Outline Sansa does not appear to have been so lucky. However, I don’t know that that means that GRRM considers Book Sansa as important in ASOIAF as Jon/Dany/Tyrion/Bran/Arya, or that she’ll necessarily survive where Outline Sansa was doomed. Too early to tell, either way. If we assume that GRRM has kept the bones of the outline in his overall ASOIAF plot, though, I think it’s safe to conclude that Book Sansa will be irrelevant to the outcome, just as Outline Sansa was apparently irrelevant to the outcome of the original outline, regardless of whether she lives or dies.

  531. flintstonewielder: Thronetender: Hence my little declaration of hope, that maybe he will find an interesting place to reinsert himself into the telling of the story.

    Look, it´s not about the *telling*. It´s about *finishing it*. There is no point of reinsertion there.

    I know it’s about completion. I wrote that I hoped he found the momentum and means to finish the “trip”.

    I guess the “reinsertion” quip is a take on my way of handling a project that must be completed, but has been put aside and thus rolled itself into a tight little ball in the corner. I look for even the slightest place to start again, to re-learn the rhythms, some aspect that can be finished quickly and refresh a sense of accomplishment. If reinsertion has a phallic undertone, then so be it. Stick it with the pointy end, George.

  532. I guess if you discount the outline, the only character we have a reasonably good indication from GRRM survives is

    Tyrion, because of that line in AGOT where it says something like “even when he looked back on this many years hence…”
  533. Bearded Onion,

    I disagree. Although the details of that outline are out the window at this point, it gives us a glimpse of what Martin is capable of doing.

    -Bran warging into Hodor and sexing Meera
    -Not R+L=J but E+L=J
    -Dany never arriving in Westeros
    -Arya marrying Tyrion

    All of that and more is on the table.

  534. Laura,

    There is no recorded ending to the Game of Thrones saga in any format, and if they keep diverging fans will ultimately have to pick which one is canon—which one is theirs. If HBO gets to the end first, provided both versions have (relatively) the same ending point, that’ll be the finale that will resonate. And the longer Martin takes to release his version of events, the less likely it’ll be that his Song is the one people remember the words to.

    Wow. The show could become canon just by being first, especially if it is first for so long. That would be unprecedented, but I think the article is spot on.

  535. Chad Brick: Martin is a deservedly rich old man. He has no reason to work other than when it makes him happy to do so.

    Kneel before GRRM mere mortals! Chad Brick has spoken, and deemed you all unworthy. Working is for bloody peasants and 9 to 5 drones.

  536. cosca: Kneel before GRRM mere mortals! Chad Brick has spoken, and deemed you all unworthy. Working is for bloody peasants and 9 to 5 drones.

    I know, right?

    Seriously, if Martin had said, “Fuck all y’all. I’m rich as hell and I’m going to spend my time diving Scrooge McDuck-style in a swimming pool full of your money” I could respect that. Even applaud it.

    But his weekend NABbing was intended to garner sympathy. And to further mislead readers that writing the books is important to him.

  537. Daughter of Winter,

    I apologize for sounding like such a book purist. Of course, I could be underestimating how much the show will be different from the books, especially now that there are no books.

    Cumsprite:
    Bearded Onion,

    -Bran warging into Hodor and sexing Meera
    -Not R+L=J but E+L=J
    -Dany never arriving in Westeros
    -Arya marrying Tyrion

    Uh, which outline were you reading, Sprite? I’d never read the full outline until you posted this, but I still am unable to make the connection between the outline and the first three items in your list. The fourth item is also not at all certain based on the outline I read. http://winteriscoming.net/2015/02/05/george-rr-martin-original-game-of-thrones-pitch/%5B/spoiler%5D

  538. Simon: As a book reader I agree. Getting Sansa in the action was a clever move. If Manse was still alive as he is in the books it would have even been better

    Mance is not a main character, whereas Sansa is. The books didn’t provide a “kill the girl, become the woman” story for her, so it was necessary to insert it somehow. Mance, on the other hand, is just a plot element for Theon: and they made Sansa subsume that while still making it story for Sansa.

    As it stands, Sansa really is the last candidate for “how could he kill her?!?!?” from the original PoV characters. The other five are much too central to the larger story: they’ve evolved much more, and there is much in common among them as to how they have evolved at which we will be able to look back and say “Aha, that fed the story by BLANK and BLANKITY BLANK.” With Sansa, it is much more difficult to say because she has evolved so little and it’s not obvious with who else in the Big 5 she has parallels.

  539. sigh……..
    its so quiet, I need something, anything.
    a new poster, a teaser trailer, photos, interviews, anything would do XD
    it’s January already and so quiet so far 🙁

  540. Cumsprite,

    Writing the books IS important to him. Maybe not as important as the rest of his projects, but pretty important to type an update after years of silence, and update that honestly makes him look unprofessional (blowing 2 deadlines in any profession for the same project is a bad thing and gets you a bad rep). Get serious, he is no mastermind of manipulation. And to me he seemed sincere. It looks like 1018 people thought the same thing.

    Also: I’m glad he didn’t type what you wanted in order to get your respect. And I am 100% sure you’d have bitched about the lack of respect for fans and his greediness and being without shame for typing something like that anyway! you are very, very bad Mr. Sprite. Very. And the other two here (you know who you are) are enabling your very bad behavior.

    Not the apologist you wanted I assume but I’m doing my very best!

  541. Bearded Onion:

    Also to everyone who brings up the outline, I’ll like to point out it has Tyrion falling in love with Arya and burning down WF and Jaime becoming king. The outline is irrelevant, outline Arya has combined elements of both current Sansa and Arya. We need to seriously leave it in the bin as it’s nothing but pure bollocks.

    I don’t know where people get the idea that outline Arya was a combination of current Sansa and Arya. There is absolutely no connection between the two. There is no love triangle between Jon, Tyrion and Sansa and Tyrion did not love Sansa. It was a political marriage. He loved Tysha and Shae. Arya in the outline still had needle and was still a plucky tomboy. There was nothing of Sansa there. If anything, she shares elements of her character with Meera, who accompanies Bran to the far North.

    Sansa on the other hand, is still outline Sansa. Though her betrayal is on a smaller scale, she still chooses the Lannisters over her family. And that’s the last we hear of her character. Obviously in the current books, GRRM has send her to the Vale with LF.

    And elements of the outline is still seen in the books. Instead of Tyrion, it’s Ramsay who burns down Winterfell and then marries a fake Arya. Most of Jon’s ADwD story arc was worrying about Arya with Ramsay and wanting to rescue her. He ended up dying because he broke his vows for Arya. So instead of Tyrion/Arya/Jon, we got Ramsay/Arya/Jon.

    As the books expanded, it’s clear that GRRM had Arya spend time in the Riverlands and Braavos so that she could learn and grow up before meeting up with Jon again. The 5 yr gap was mainly meant for her (If a twelve-year old has to conquer the world, then so be it – GRRM ).

    The show on the other hand, does take elements from Arya’s story and hands it over to Sansa. The whole Northern plot with fake Arya was supposed to be about Arya. The North was marching on Winterfell for Ned’s little girl , in this case Arya. The enmity between Jon and Ramsay was about Arya. If Bastard bowl takes place in the books, it will be because of Arya.

    I am not sure how any of this indicates that Sansa is an important character in the books. On the contrary, it indicates that her story arc can be changed and they can easily replace some secondary character with her. Notice that Arya, Bran, Jon, Dany and Tyrion’s story remains unchanged from their book plots. They had Bran sit out a season, because they did not want to mess with his story with added material. Sansa on the other hand seems to be an interchangeable character.

    She may have a bigger role on the show to bring some of the plot points together, but I doubt it’s the same in the books. Ultimately, I think her arc is about LF, another character who was missing in the original outline. Maybe she will end up killing LF and have the cliche beauty and beast romance with the Hound.

  542. Flora Linden: If someone doesn’t like a film for whatever reason, then it’s a bad film for that person. If someone else likes it, then it’s a good film for that person. I

    You are confounding quality with enjoyment. There are plenty of bad films that I like. There are good films that I do not like. Ditto that for books, TV shows and (especially) music. There is a reason why we use the phrase “guilty pleasures”: those are things that we objectively know are bad but we like them anyway. Years (decades!) ago, Siskel and Ebert actually devoted an episode of their movie review show to their Guilty Pleasures: movies that they eviscerated for being poorly done, and then gleefully explained why the just loved watching it. (Invariably the other one was just groaning!) Good film reviewers actually are pretty good at this: in addition to telling you how well the film told a story and how well-produced it was, they will also tell you whether you will like by comparison with other films: it’s a bad film, but if you enjoyed X, Y or Z, then you’ll probably enjoy this, too.

    And, let’s face it: who hear has not been bored by one of the classics? You can (or should be able to) appreciate how well done they were while still being bored by the subject matter or the tale. I do not know if there is a phrase for the opposite of a Guilty Pleasure (a Guilty Dislike?), but we all have those, too.

  543. Actually, on that note, who is willing to admit some Guilty Pleasures and Guilty Dislikes? I’ll start. Let’s see, it’s tough because there are so many, but….

    Guilty Pleasure Film: Jeckyll and Hyde Together Again. Totally stupid and silly, and completely rude and insulting, but I damn near asphyxiate laughing at it. It’s of the Airplane genre of silliness. (That type of humor works on me, I am embarrassed to admit.)

    Guilty Dislike Film: Long Days Journey into Night. This is a really, really powerful film, telling a dark story about people living lies. The cast, acting, direction, etc., all are superb. And basically it makes you want to slit your wrist, it is so devastating. It is one of the best films I ever have seen, yet you could not pay me enough to watch it again!

  544. TormundsWoman,

    I look at those 1018 people and feel great sadness. Suffer little children to come unto me and forbid them not for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

  545. AryaArya,

    … And i wonder which part of my comments insulted him, when i said that i only care about the show? or when i mentioned that outline is meaningless now? if you consider any of these as insults then i really don’t know what should i tell you, no my friend i’ll never behave that childish with insulting the man who created this all.

  546. Wow… the vitriol on this thread. Look, I’m used to waiting for books (ASoIaF, Wheel of Time, Outlander, etc.) so TWOW not coming out before April was sort of a given for me. After having dealt with the death of an author before a series was finished (RIP Robert Jordan), I am just glad I will get an ending to this saga – whether it be in book or show form.

    I will read the book whenever it comes out. I will watch the show when it premieres on HBO. I will (I hope) enjoy them both. Do we have to insult one another about something over which we have no control, except whether or not we consume it? Why does this have to be a zero sum game for so many here?

  547. Guilty pleasure: well, I’m a child of the eighties, so any silly action flick with Jean-Claude van Damme, Steven Seagal, or Chuck Norris is right up my alley. I know they’re crap, but I enjoy them nevertheless.

    Guilty dislike: hmm, I don’t know… While I can say that something I enjoyed is objectively bad, I’m not certain I can say that something I disliked or was bored with is objectively good. Good question though. I’ll have to think on this one.

  548. Yes but I did say having Theon act with out Mance present made his actions in the series a better moment of character progression. In the books Theon knows he is not alone.

    The Poole story does something very different in the books however, it reiterates Martin’s themes and foreshadowing that what appears or is said to be true is not ( such as the death of Aegon, Jon Snow’s parentage, the Red Wedding, and perhaps even what we are told about the Night’s King or any of the gods and their anointed saviours.)

    As to Sansa’s death she might be killed but it is just as likely Martin will give the girl who dreamed of being a queen a simple life and allow her to find love with a character like the Hound, who is not a knight and is born below her.

    I also think she will not die until she has killed Littlefinger. If her story points anywhere it is in that direction.

  549. Wimsey,

    Again sorry about the double post but the reply button seems to be acting up not attributing the reply path

    Yes but I did say having Theon act with out Mance present made his actions in the series a better moment of character progression. In the books Theon knows he is not alone.

    The Poole story does something very different in the books however, it reiterates Martin’s themes and foreshadowing that what appears or is said to be true is not ( such as the death of Aegon, Jon Snow’s parentage, the Red Wedding, and perhaps even what we are told about the Night’s King or any of the gods and their anointed saviours.)

    As to Sansa’s death she might be killed but it is just as likely Martin will give the girl who dreamed of being a queen a simple life and allow her to find love with a character like the Hound, who is not a knight and is born below her.

    I also think she will not die until she has killed Littlefinger. If her story points anywhere it is in that direction.

  550. SerNoName:
    Ultimately, I think her arc is about LF, another character who was missing in the original outline.

    Well, properly speaking, LF appears to in some sense have split off from ur-Jaime and, of all people, ur-Tyrion, since in the outline ur-Tyrion removed Joffrey and was then framed for a bunch of murders by ur-Jaime. LF as we know him has definitely been shaped to be Sansa’s antagonist, though.

  551. The creepy Sansa/Sandor shippers will be the death of me. And not simply because he’s my favourite character and she my third least. The guy needs someone who’s as tough as he is who can call him on his bullshit and gain mutual respect. Sansa needs her fawning prince, or better yet, someone who she can completely walk over.

    Better YET, why does everyone have to be paired up in every story? If it wasn’t for the fact that Sansa has always wanted the ‘fairytale’ and been denied it to this point, I think she would likely be stronger as her own best company. Alone doesn’t necessarily equal lonely, people!

    I feel remarkably better now. Don’t poke me. 🙂

  552. GOT has a bit of both of my choices.

    Guilty dislike: Any one of a number of Shakespearean adaptations, especially Prospero’s Books. Exceptionally brilliant movie, but so visually rich with multiple layers of images that it’s nearly unwatchable.

    Guilty pleasure: Natural disaster movies like The Day after Tomorrow and 2012, although the recent San Andreas was not that pleasurable.

  553. Wimsey,

    Guilty pleasure: Twilight. There, I said it. Yeah, it sucked so hard, but I read every book, watched every movie, and both loved and hated the series. I was disappointed when my twelve year-old obsessively read the series half a dozen times because I realize that the literary value is 1 on a scale of 1 to 10. But the entertainment value is high. Fortunately, she has moved on to Percy Jackson and other series of more merit.

    I enjoy Awkward, too, but there are some great writing moments in there.

    Not truly a guilty pleasure, but I’m somewhat embarrassed to admit how much I love iZombie. The show has the stupidest name and appears shallow, but there is much cleverness to be found. And there was one reference in the show to GoT where someone was all, whatever you do, never ask Clive what GRRM is doing right now! And of course, that made us all want to ask him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpNFqg99dwo

    I felt guilty about not liking Lev Grossman’s The Magician. Man, was it so mired down in negativity. I can take dark tales, obviously, but I need for there to be hope and a point that we’re shooting toward.

  554. Ryan: My guess is hell just stop writing after WOW and give the project to someone else. What a jerk.

    “A Series of Thoughts, Images, and Sensations Occurring in a Person’s Mind During Sleep of the Season After Winter and Before Summer” by E. & L.

  555. Pigeon:
    The creepy Sansa/Sandor shippers will be the death of me. And not simply because he’s my favourite character and she my third least. The guy needs someone who’s as tough as he is who can call him on his bullshit and gain mutual respect. Sansa needs her fawning prince, or better yet, someone who she can completely walk over.

    Better YET, why does everyone have to be paired up in every story? If it wasn’t for the fact that Sansa has always wanted the ‘fairytale’ and been denied it to this point, I think she would likely be stronger as her own best company. Alone doesn’t necessarily equal lonely, people!

    If Sansa is the heir to anything, she needs to find a mate. If not, neither need to. I like Sansa with the Hound for exactly the same reason you think she should be alone: he’s exactly the opposite of the handsome, debonair, gentleman prince she envisioned. Now that she painfully realizes that princes and knights don’t always live up to expectations, I see the pairing as well setup, especially given the heroic rescue of the damsel in distress. Will it happen? Perhaps, perhaps not. This won’t be a big disappointment. But I do think the setup is there.

  556. Sean C.: Well, properly speaking, LF appears to in some sense have split off from ur-Jaime and, of all people, ur-Tyrion, since in the outline ur-Tyrion removed Joffrey and was then framed for a bunch of murders by ur-Jaime.LF as we know him has definitely been shaped to be Sansa’s antagonist, though.

    Jaime’s villainy seems to be spread out between several characters. It’s shared between his evil twin sister Cersei and the mustache twirling LF and Jaime gets the so called ‘arc of redemption’. Tywin and Walder Frey also get a share of the villainy since they get rid of Robb as opposed to Jaime in the outline. And the Tyrells were also involved in the plot to kill Joffrey in the current setting.

    I don’t see how LF branches off from Tyrion, since LF does not remove Joffrey as King in the books. But Ramsay does get Tyrion’s villainy by burning down WF. Tyrion ends up killing Tywin and escaping, except to Essos.

    I still doubt Sansa will have much of anything to do with the ‘Song’ which is what GRRM considers to be the main part of the story. Her plot will be contained to the un-magical side of things. Unlike the show. Which could be why her character is going in different directions because the show wants her to be more involved in the North.

    We may get a Jon/Dany/Tyrion love triangle in the books. Or Martin may still be aiming for Jon/Arya.

  557. I was in the original crowd who waited up until like 2:20 AM Philly time to see what the update said. He dragged it out for hours, guys. I’m not kidding. Baited us all day with dumb stuff – like I’m ever going to get the chance to fly out to go to the Cocktoe or whatever his movie theater is in Santa Fe to watch old movies.
    First it was that he lost the post. Fine. But if you’re giving a WOW update, don’t you think that’s the first thing people want to see? Nope. Had to advertise all his other stuff. I have zero interest in Wildcards – I’ll never read it simply because it took time away from ASOIAF.
    That’s what it seemed like to me, just like other people have said. He’s like a wrestler shilling his “merch” before he gets “future endeavored”. Something about this stinks. I’m even thinking he may be pissed at the way the show is changing the plot, so he’s letting them go it alone so he can say, “See? I told you. The butterfly effect.” if it f’d up. He’s using D&D as Guinea Pigs. If I were them, I’d be majorly pissed. And guys? Stop acting like he’s in a wheelchair or something. If he can fly off to Dubai at a moments notice, he’s doing better than a lot of people half his age. Besides that, I think this was the Greatest Thread Ever. Rock on, Watchers!

  558. SerNoName,

    Tyrion only wants Tysha. Until that story is resolved in some way he will not find love else where.

    The Jon Arya romance however is just creepy. Even though they aren’t half brother/sister he is still her brother and in fact more of a father figure. There is also no set up in either the book or show for this. And just because Martin wrote an outline umpteen years ago it doesn’t mean that outline hasn’t changed a thousand times, which it clearly has. Where Arya ends up is anyone’s guess. I wouldn’t be surprised if she chooses to become “no-one” and that the home she seeks, WF, will not be the home she chooses.

  559. Simon: Yes but I did say having Theon act with out Mance present made his actions in the series a better moment of character progression.

    Oh, true: and my one big complaint about Theon’s arc in the book is that he never has anything comparable to the “push Miranda off of the ledge” moment where he acts truly for himself and truly to thwart Ramsay. That might still happen in Winter in some way: but it never really does in the books so far. Moreover, it was also a payoff moment for Sansa: whereas in the book, Theon is forced to do it by incidental characters, Sansa had been trying to draw Theon out of Reek for some time. So, instead of being an unwitting bystander to her salvation (as Jeyne Poole was), Sansa created her salvation.

    But cutting Jeyne also was sensible. She was just a prop that other props used to force Theon into action. Replacing her with a major character made the whole thing a lot less arbitrary. In fact, it was not arbitrary at all!

  560. All: those are some pretty good guilty pleasures! Doesn’t it feel better to admit it?

    In some ways, the guilty dislikes are harder to admit, I find. Here is mine for TV: Breaking Bad. Very well done. The general story, a man trying to do right by doing something very wrong, is the sort that usually grabs me. The acting, directing, etc., seem good. And yet…. I could not get into it. It almost makes me ask: what’s wrong with me?

    TruBlood was a guilty pleasure for me. I mean, it was just silly. The stories were incoherent and they often just abruptly stopped things. More than a couple of the actors seem to be phoning it in the last couple of seasons. And yet, I watched it and I kind of miss it. It almost makes me ask: what’s wrong with me?

    😀

  561. Wimsey,

    Yes but you have to remember Theon is far more dehumanized in the book than he is in the series and so less capable of acting. Perhaps he will find himself when his sisters life is threatened on the ice with Stanis or perhaps again to keep Jenny out of Ramsey’s hands. Again it’s worth remembering Jenny is still playing at being Arya with Stanis further reiterating the themes of subterfuge and misdirection. If Theon does manage to save Jenny from Ramsey again (if this plays out in some way like the show) then Jon will not be so forgiving of Theon as he would have if he turned up with Sansa or Ayra. Then again if Theon does get to castle black, as opposed to the iron islands, Jon might still be dead and the illusion still continue.

  562. zod: 1. Yes, I agree that he’ll only chose one POV for these two.

    2. “Eventually” is the key word here. Dany will be alone for a while before she reaches Meereen, and her POV is a given.

    Victarion will still be a POV, as evidenced by one of GRRM public reading.

    Tyrion will obviously be a big POV as usual (+ GRRM read two Tyrion chapters in his public readings).

    Barristan has at least two POVs chapters as evidenced by GRRM public readings, so he’s still a POV as well. So, no, none of these characters are going to be combined in TWOW.

    3. “Eventually” is the key word once again. Aegon hitting KL is pure speculation on your part… and Cersei will remain a POV no matter what… he’s not going to drop her arc all of a sudden, and she’s our only eyes in KL right now.

    Arianne has at least one chapter before meeting JonCon as evidenced by a public reading. He’s not going to drop her all of a sudden : she will be a POV in TWOW.

    As for JonCon, I don’t know. He might drop his POV in favor of Arianne’s, yes (that is if they ever meet).

    4. Jon and Melisandre will most likely be combined, yes. Hence why I included Mel in my first post but not Jon… might be the other way around (Jon but not Mel)… Either way you see it, that’s still in the end 1 POV… and since I only counted 1 for those two in my first post, that actually doesn’t change anything.

    Sansa is a big “eventually”. GRRM released a Sansa chapter from TWOW : she’s still Alayne and she’s still in the Vale, without any indication that she’s going to move any time soon. She still counts as being her own POV.

    —So. Arya, Bran, and Sansa are a given.
    —Davos could be left off-screen for one book I guess.
    —There’s something more interesting going on at the Citadel than just Sam studying. The original Jaqen is there. The last update we had on that was in AFFC : 10 years ago. And when is Euron going to hit Old Town if not in TWOW? Sam will be a POV.
    —Areo has been sent on a quest to kill Darkstar (he is of the night). So we “need” an update on that. Might be given off-screen, though. Ok.
    —You forgot Aeron. His POV in TWOW is a given since GRRM mentioned it.
    —Regarding Theon and Asha. Yes, I can see Asha being combined with Theon.

    So : Jaime/Brienne, Tyrion, Victarion, Barristan, Daenerys, JonCon/Arianne, Cersei, Theon/Asha, Jon/Mel, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Sam, Aeron, Theon.

    That’s still 15 POVs.

    Plus, the situation in KL is going to become very complex. Will Cersei’s POV be enough? He might hit another knot here and need to add POVs in that place.

    This is going to be long. Before I divulge, I want to note again that I said “in the course of the book”. I don’t mean that GrrM is going to cut out POV’s immediately, outside for perhaps dramatic effect. See point 2 for clarification. Edit: You counted Theon twice, so it should be 14 in your post, not 15.

    1. Yay! Pretty much the Cat/Brienne-dynamic in the storytelling in aCoK.
    2. Dany is with the Dothraki and will get chapters. But would she need 10+? She only had limited chapters in aCoK, and it still told a decent story. There doesn’t need to be a lot of actual chapters before she converges back to Meereen. As for Barristan, Victarion and Tyrion, I know they all have been confirmed to have chapters in Winds, but all of those are in the Battle of Fire. Once that calms down and Victarion, Barristan and Tyrion are in the same place, do we really need three perspectives to tell one story? Nope, those can be done via the Tyrion-POV, cutting Barristan and Victarion-POV’s out after the initial phase of Winds. Which reminds me of the fact that the Battle of Fire was meant as the end of Dance, and that GrrM perhaps never intended for Barristan or Victarion to have chapters in Winds. So, I think the only two post-Battle of Fire POV’s that are required to tell the Meereen-story, are Dany and Tyrion. So not combined from the start, but after the battle.

    3. I know that Arianne will have at least two chapters. A new JonCon-chapter may be nice, but I don’t think’s all that necessary. Again look at aCoK’s and the run-up to Stannis’ attack on King’s Landing. Tyrion was our sole man on the ground and we didn’t get an update from Davos after the shadow baby until he reaches the Blackwater. Yes, we did have Sansa there as well. Same could be done for fAegon after Arianne meets up with him. So a few chapters in the early book and a few chapters late in the book with Cersei being our eyes in KL. And is it pure speculation? GrrM has said multiple people will sit on the IT before the story ends, and fAegon seems like the easiest fit right now for at least a temporary stay. And yes, KL is a complex place, but Cersei isn’t grasping on to that, in fact, it’s falling apart without her recognizing it. We don’t need many chapters of her dealing with the intracacies, because they go over her head more often than not. So: Arianne and JonCon meet up in the early stage, they disappear for the large part of the book while Cersei has her trial and loses touch with everything and everyone and at the end, we have a JonCon-chapter where he and Dorne and likely the Reach assault KL and a Cersei chapter where we see her (arguably) pro-Targ/Dorne/Reach court turn on her. So Arianne and JonCon function in the same storyline without having to double up on chapters. Three Arianne and one/two JonCon-chapter would be plenty to tell that story and leave a lot to the imagination.

    4. I had talked about Theon/Asha/Aeron here, but you missed it and went to Jon/Mel, so just pointing out that I didn’t forget Aeron. I know of his supposed chapter. But there’s no reason why he should have more than that single chapter. Asha plans to take Theon back to the Iron Islands to annul Euron’s claim. What better way to make a shocking reveal (if the show hadn’t spoiled it prior) than to have Aeron rally men against Euron’s rule only for Asha to show up with Theon and than have a “Eureka!”-moment? From that point on, we really wouldn’t need him anymore again. So Theon gets the most chapters in that storyline and Aeron gets one for the dramatic reveal and perhaps Asha doesn’t get one as long as she sticks to Theon. Or we get to see a part of the story that would otherwise be a Theon-chapter but simply from her perspective. In that case, the amount of chapters to the storyline would still be the same, which is what I mean with combining the POV’s.

    5. Jon/Mel. This may be the same as the Victarion/Barristan-argument I made at 2. Perhaps Mel was only supposed to be a POV in Dance, and perhaps she was supposed to have only two chapters. With her second being the one in which Jon is restored, but got pushed to Winds. But that’s just a feeling right now.

    6. I didn’t say Sam or Areo wouldn’t get chapters. Just that I find it unlikely that they’ll get a lot. Perhaps three for Sam and one or two for Areo.

    You count the POV’s separately, but I tend to see them as narrative vehicles for a storyline. In which a storyline has a set of chapters and the POV’s tell that story. So if a storyline has 8 chapters, it doesn’t really matter if that storyline is told by 2 or 4 POV’s, as in the end, it’s still 8 chapters. Aeron having a chapter in the Ironborn storyline, or one chapter being told through Asha’s perspective in stead of sticking to Theon’s the entire story isn’t going to make it any longer as long as it sticks to the number of chapters GrrM had in mind for it. So it comes down to GrrM deciding how many chapters each story-arc needs, and not how many each POV needs.

    In that mindset:
    1. – Brandon: North of the Wall
    2. – Arya: Braavos
    3. – Jaime/Brienne: Riverlands
    4. – Sansa: Vale, potentially the North?
    5. – Jon/Mel: Wall, the North
    6. – Tyrion/Dany/Victarion/Barristan: Meereen, Dothraki.
    7. – Theon/Asha/Aeron: North/Iron Islands
    8. – Arianne/JonCon: Stormlands and Kings Landing
    9. – Cersei: King’s Landing
    10. – Samwell: Oldtown
    11. – Areo: Dorne
    12. – Davos: Magical Mystery Tour aka better left offscreen.

    As I consider that Areo, Sam, Arianne+JonCon and Davos may just get 8 chapters in total, a big book of 80 chapters (aSoS) will still have 72 chapters for the 8 other storylines. Which is 9 chapters each. Where some won’t even need 9, like Bran or Sansa (though 6 seems like a definite minimum), which would give more chapters to stories such as Meereen, The Wall and KL.

    So concluding, I really don’t see a problem here.

  563. Simon:
    SerNoName,

    The Jon Arya romance however is just creepy. Even though they aren’t half brother/sister he is still her brother and in fact more of a father figure. There is also no set up in either the book or show for this. And just because Martin wrote an outline umpteen years ago it doesn’t mean that outline hasn’t changed a thousand times, which it clearly has. Where Arya ends up is anyone’s guess. I wouldn’t be surprised if she chooses to become “no-one” and that the home she seeks, WF, will not be the home she chooses.

    GRRM does not care if his readers find it creepy. Incest is an integral part of his books. It’s everywhere. From twins growing up together having sex (To hell with the Westermarck effect) to Dany being a product of incest. His main romance in the original outline was Jon and Arya.

    And the hints and suggestions that they may get together only increases as the books continue. It’s the only relationship that GRRM has consistently build up over 5 books. They may not have reunited yet, but they are constantly in each others thoughts. Jon compares his girlfriend, Ygritte, to Arya several times. He wonders if Arya is still his little sister anymore. He calls her his heart. He ends up dying for her. The one constant in Arya’s life is Jon.

    I agree that the show has completely removed the Jon/Arya relationship. Apart from needle we don’t get to see their connection on the show. Without fake Arya, that whole aspect of their relationship is negated. If we get the pink letter on the show, it will now be all about Sansa instead of Arya. Maybe the show runners agree with you and think that their TV audience would find a Jon/Arya romance to be creepy and have changed that.

  564. SerNoName,

    If there was going to be a Jon/Arya romance in the books, I can’t imagine the writers would change that.

    In the off-chance that that happens, I hope they arrange hidden cameras to catch Kit and Maisie’s reactions to seeing that script for the first time.

  565. Kath6152,

    Kath, you´re my hero ! You cracked the code ! Unfortunately, you will now be attacked by an army of zombie enablers rambling about *George is not your bitch* and crap like that. Keep up your clear vision ! Don´t let the asskissers ever stop you !

  566. SerNoName: GRRM does not care if his readers find it creepy.Incest is an integral part of his books. It’s everywhere. From twins growing up together having sex (To hell with the Westermarck effect) to Dany being a product of incest. His main romance in the original outline was Jon and Arya.

    And the hints and suggestions that they may get together only increases as the books continue. It’s the only relationship that GRRM has consistently build up over 5 books. They may not have reunited yet, but they are constantly in each others thoughts. Jon compares his girlfriend, Ygritte, to Arya several times. He wonders if Arya is still his little sister anymore. He calls her his heart. He ends up dying for her. The one constant in Arya’s life is Jon.

    It’s the first thing he does! I read the chapter a few hours ago, and he basically puts a knife under her chin, looks at her, realizes she’s a girl and “hmm.. she looks like Arya”.. Okay Jon, you just killed a man and now you’re thinking about your little sister. Okay…

  567. SerNoName,

    I still read this all as a loving brother. Yes incest is part of the show but it doesn’t go well for anyone concerned Dragon’s or Lion’s. The closest the show and books will get with this is with D and Jon – half Aunty and Nephew.

  568. And what about Theon thinking about father-figures every single time he had sex? On the boat to Pyke, getting a BJ: “Daddy will be so proud!” In Winterfell, thinking about shagging the girl in his bed and than: “What would Eddard Stark have done”..

    That’s seriously messed up. Well, at least he’s not thinking about shagging his mother. Did want to shag his sister though.. Theon’s all about dat family.

  569. Ser Oromis Locke:

    Where some won’t even need 9, like Bran or Sansa (though 6 seems like a definite minimum), which would give more chapters to stories such as Meereen, The Wall and KL.

    Sansa would need more than 6 chapters if she is going to become a player of the game as predicted by her fans. She has to learn and she has to perform. Her siblings are way ahead of her. Jon had 13 chapters and Dany had 10 chapters learning to lead and rule. Sansa would need a minimum of 10 to realistically become a player of some caliber.

    As for Bran, The Winds of Winter will feature him heavily. We will learn about the Lands of Always Winter and the Others are going to enter the scene in a major way. This is Bran’s book like ACoK was about Tyrion and ADwD was about Dany and Jon. I am guessing Bran will have at least 13 chapters.

    I suspect Arya will also feature heavily in Winds. She has to complete her Braavos arc and return to Westeros.

    I can see why Martin is taking so long to finish the books 🙂

  570. Simon,

    Er, no, I understand why he’s her nephew. I asked why you call her a “half Aunty”.

    SerNoName: Sansa would need more than 6 chapters if she is going to become a player of the game as predicted by her fans. She has to learn and she has to perform. Her siblings are way ahead of her.Jon had 13 chapters and Dany had 10 chapters learning to lead and rule. Sansa would need a minimum of 10 to realistically become a player of some caliber.

    I don’t think you can peg chapter numbers that precisely. Jon and Dany’s chapter counts in ADWD (which I’m not sure is really the proper measure, anyway; court politicking and ruling aren’t synonymous) reflect the amount of what’s going on in their corners of the world too.

  571. Matthew The Dragon knight: its so quiet, I need something, anything. a new poster, a teaser trailer, photos, interviews, anything would do

    With the Golden Globes this weekend, we should get some interviews. Of course, the questions will be is Jon like omg dead? And the answer will be Season 6 is bigger and better than ever.

  572. Sean C.:
    Simon,

    I don’t think you can peg chapter numbers that precisely.Jon and Dany’s chapter counts in ADWD (which I’m not sure is really the proper measure, anyway; court politicking and ruling aren’t synonymous) reflect the amount of what’s going on in their corners of the world too.

    And Sansa’s chapters should reflect what’s going on in her corner of the world too. She is the POV that can give insight into LF’s dealings in the Vale and from the look of things there are other goings on what with a tournament of knights, a possible kidnapping and maybe the Hound making an appearance? Apart from all this Sansa herself should show some personal growth, think, make decisions and play an active role. She should stop being the narrator of events and instead use the information at her disposal to effect some change. If this has to happen, it has to happen in TWoW. And it should need at least 10-12 chapters, IMO.

    As for Dany, her 10 chapters in Meereen were about her learning to rule. To understand how difficult it was. And her ruling required a good dose of both court politicking and administration. As GRRM himself mentions:

    Character development and [people] changing is good, and there are some tough things in there that I think a lot of writers skip over. I’m glad I didn’t skip over these things. And that has been interesting, you know. Jon Snow as Lord Commander. Dany as Queen struggling with rule. Seeing someone like Dany actually trying to deal with the vestments of being a queen and [dealing with] factions and guilds and the economy.

    She learned and at the end of the book, she was able to achieve some semblance of peace. If Sansa’s role is to become a ‘player of the game’ then we should see something similar with her. Arya is already putting her training to use, Bran is already warging into humans. Sansa needs to start using her head and show us what she can do in TWoW. I would think that would require more than 6 chapters.

  573. Interesting comments on the outline offering any kind of road map as to where George may take the series or certain characters. As we all know, George is a ‘gardner’ when he writes, it’s one of the (many) reasons these books are taking soooooo long. With George’s gardening in mind, I think this means there is little meaning we can take from this outline written over 20 years ago. Especially as it has a redacted end – the redacted bit is the valid part of the outline for the future of the series in my view. The page we are allowed to read is interesting, but no longer spoilery in terms of the fate of characters, or who may or may not end up in weird incestuous love-triangles. If any of the info we were able to read could be considered spoilery, it would have been redacted like the end part.

    The outline talks about the Big 5, but after 5 books I don’t think we needed the outline to tell us they were probably the most ‘important ‘ characters, in terms of the over-arching story. I am in the camp that adds Sansa into a Big 6, something the outline makes pretty clear George wasn’t considering back then – she would have been killed in Jaime’s single-minded pursuit of the throne (that thought makes me giggle. Jaime killing everyone in his path to the throne, that is, not Sansa dying. I am a Sansa fan).

  574. SerNoName,

    And Sansa’ development should in someway be linked to the Vale and to realising her Aunt and Littlefinger poisoned John Aryn. Again killing the man responsible for the death of half her family is important.

  575. Am I the only guy here who thinks Bran will not have any POV chapters? Bran should have acquired too much knowledge by now that we should not be aware of for a while. His training should be semi-complete and he saw things we should not know; eventually, we will but not now.

  576. Wimsey,

    Wonderful idea! Let’s see…
    Guilty pleasures: Pixels (I must admit, half of my interest was caused by Peter Dinklage – and Sean Beam’s character, who survives – but I find funny and enjoy many Adam Sandler films). And to find an old one (from the 80ies): Escape to Victory, that wonderful WW2 story with Sylvester Stallone, Michael Caine and actual soccer players as British war prisoners playing a game against Nazi Germany national team. Max von Sydow was the Wehrmacht officer who made it happen.
    Guilty dislikes: Melancholia by Lars von Trier (although I like Dancer in the Dark), Charlie Chaplin movies.

  577. Cumsprite:

    -Bran warging into Hodor and sexing Meera
    -Not R+L=J but E+L=J
    -Dany never arriving in Westeros
    -Arya marrying Tyrion

    LOL. I recognize your humour. But I guess one never can tell 🙂

  578. BASOTA:
    Am I the only guy here who thinks Bran will not have any POV chapters? Bran shouldhave acquired too much knowledge by now that we should not be aware of for a while. His training should be semi-complete and he saw things we should not know; eventually, we will but not now.

    There was at least one Bran chapter cut from “Dragons”. Martin donates all his drafts to Texas A&M university. Someone took some photos before they restricted access.

    Some have speculated that it might be through this Bran chapter that we witness the “Battle Of Ice”. We know this is one the battles cut out of “Dance”.

  579. There was at least one Bran chapter cut from “Dragons”.Martin donates all his drafts to Texas A&M university. Someone took some photos before they restricted access.

    Thanks for the information, Mitch! And now I long to read the chapter 🙁

  580. Grailking,

    She’s very pretty, but her acting takes me right out of the story. And there weren’t any cute guys, at least in what I saw, to help make up for it 🙂 Though I was surprised to see Edmure Tully! He looks so much older there.

  581. This has been a great thread, very enjoyable to read. So many intelligent, thoughtful peeps in the fandom. Now I’m Jonesin (that word looks so weird in print haha) for a new teaser, trailer, or leak….just something. (I know, we are spoiled are we not?)

  582. YgritTe,

    Yeah, I don’t recall a longer thread, at least not lately! How are you? That T looks cool in your name, I must say. And about the original verb, well, it’s a really powerful tool to convey your feelings!

  583. SerNoName:
    I would think that would require more than 6 chapters.

    Dany’s ASOS arc is only six chapters, and that’s often considered her best book.

  584. Sean C.,

    Indeed, it is not so much the number of words as the amount of information and development. Of course, Swords was Martin’s best writing: there is little narrative flab, and he accomplishes as much or more in 6 chapters there than he does for other characters in more chapters in Dragons or (especially) Crows. OK, it is not Hemmingway (the King of Concise), but damn good.

    Martin did the same with Arya in 6 Crows/Dragons chapters: she traversed as much in those chapters as Jon or Daeny did in many more, and she traversed much further than did, say, Tyrion, Jamie, Cersei or Brienne in more chapters, too.

  585. YgritTe,

    interesting, just googled last kingdom, and I think I will watch that!!!
    whats its status? has season 1 aired completely?

  586. Shy Lady Dragon:

    Hey! How are you Lady D? Doing as well as can be expected over here in frigid New England! Had a battle with depression for several months but the fog seems to be lifting yay. They pushed Zoloft but I don’t like taking stuff so…I’m dying to ask for your opinion about something on one of the cast of GOT but have to hold my tongue because it’s speculative gossip and not sure it would go over too well with some. Too bad there’s no PM function lol. I’ll have to wait for the appropriate thread, if it comes up. *using mental telepathy… ohmm*

    Have a wonderful day!

  587. Deesensfan,

    Feel a litle bad for Benitez but I wish all luck too Zidane. It’s his first time coaching a club such as Real and I really admire his courage of taking the team.

  588. Mihnea,

    I cant wait to see what Zizou can do. They have been molding him for 6-7 years to do this. I hope it works out. I love him!

    I have respect for Rafa but it wasn’t working
    The real cause, as wel all know, is Benitez

  589. Deesensfan,

    I’ll make a prediction: the chance that Zidane remains coach after the end of the current season is even smaller than GRRM finishing TWOW by then 😉
    (not experienced enough, not the right personality, and too strong opposition in Barca and Athletico)

  590. Deesensfan,

    OK this is weird, I just went On Demand to find the answer and the show is no longer there. I watched 2 episodes last week but I can’t find it now. I want to say there was like half a season maybe?

    Edit: Other people are asking at Cable website the same thing. No answer from them though. Guess I’ll try Vikings or something. Erg. That seems like too much of a guy’s thing though.

  591. This was a very good and neutral post. Thank you and I agree with you.

    I always come here these days but accidentally sometimes still end up on the old site winter… Not to want to bash at them but there was a veritable bawl fest going on over this. Excuse my English. I think it probably sounds uncourteous but I don’t have the vocabulary to say what I mean in less harsh terms.

    Their post was really unnecessary and very immature. As if they owned Martin.
    I have the highest respect for him and all will be well in the end.

    I couldn’t resist commenting on their post, and it went like this;

    ‘I think people should just lay off him. He is not yours or my puppet to order about.
    ….
    He does whatever he wants and I for one have actually (unlike the author of this post) come to terms with the fact that I have to choose to watch it and be spoiled or wait.
    But you see, I understand him. I get so stressed up over deadlines and perceived need for perfection that I more often than not sit at the last minute and try to do whatever I can to get something in. But. As soon as that date is passed, I can relax. Take my time and do a great job at it.

    So I wouldn’t mope about as much if I were you. Just take it as it goes. Allow Martin his artistic freedom and enjoy the book when it gets there.
    … No offence intended.’

  592. Ah nuts, comments are bugging, massive double post might happen

    edit: or, erm, no comment at all. Now this one’s useless. Yeh I hope we get a trailer soon.

  593. YgritTe,

    Here you can watch The Last Kingdom for free. Just click on the episode link, copy the code you see in the box and after that play the movie.
    http://www.playfs.com/2015/10/the-last-kingdom-2015-serial-online.html
    I can fully understand your joy that cold is melting away, yesterday it snowed heavily in Timisoara and I didn’t like to get out at all. Imho when depression is around the best solutions are sports (which I’m too lazy to take up, only swimming – big fan! – in summer), as many fresh air walks as possible and to keep one’s mind buzy with an interesting project.
    I’m dying to find out what’s your question, so I’m joining you in meditation 🙂
    Have warm and sunny days, wild girl!

  594. Mihnea,

    It’s such fun to watch you guys talking about soccer. I used to be a huge fan myself but some combined reasons drove me away. Anyhow, it’s sweetly nostalgic to remember how I used to suffer for favourite teams.
    And it’s also a pleasure to see how people who had come here for the sake of ASOIAF/ GOT could discover other common hobbies.

  595. Sean C.: Dany’s ASOS arc is only six chapters, and that’s often considered her best book.

    I thought and I think many would agree that AGoT is Dany’s best book. She went from powerless princess sold off in marriage to head of a Dothraki Khalasar. The character development was amazing. The chapters were amazing. Her’s was the last chapter of the book and had one of the best endings of the series.

    As Daenerys Targaryen rose to her feet, her black hissed, pale smoke venting from its mouth and nostrils. The other two pulled away from her breasts and added their voices to the call, translucent wings unfolding and stirring the air, and for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons.

    And that was 10 chapters she had in AGoT. I did not enjoy Dany’s ASoS plot as much. Getting the unsullied in Astapor seemed all too easy. Are we supposed to believe that these experienced slavers did not have any mechanism in place to prevent what happened?

    Characters like Dany, Jon, Arya and Bran hit the ground running. Bran started warging as soon as he woke up from his coma. Jon was learning from people like Jeor, Aemon and Donal Noye in book one. Arya saw through Joffrey and was training with Syrio Forel in book one. Dany went from having no power to having all the power and dragons and a good deal of it was through her own scheming and power plays. GRRM can afford to spend 6 chapters on them in later books.

    Sansa still has not done anything. She knows that LF had charge of Jeyne Poole. She knows LF and Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn. She knows that LF was taking orders from the Lannisters and Cersei and was part of the cabal that took down her father. But she never reacts to any of this information. So far she has followed orders and made some good guesses. Oh, and made Sweet Robin eat his dinner. Come on! It’s book 6!

    So yes, she needs more than 10 chapters in TWoW. GRRM has to spend a whole lot of time on her just so she can catch up to her siblings and become a player of the game. Especially since she seems to be having a disadvantage intellectually. Sansa is a bit of an idiot. She has to advance from thinking that the lady who ordered her pet wolf dead is awesome to doing some actual plotting. That would be quite the achievement. Hopefully GRRM can pull it off. I would just very much like to see Sansa putting two and two together and getting four. Just once. Before the series ends.

  596. Kinda hating the no news for days … This is the worst time of the year … I need my dose of thrones everyday … And I won’t start re watching till there’s 50 nights till the premiere of season 6 so yeh that’s march … On the flip side I really really really want to avoid watching trailers this season … But I know I won’t be able to resist

  597. Kath6152,

    This, thank you. The whole thing reeked. He supposedly “lost” his post. Then he milked it for all it was worth, which was one reason people assumed news on the Winds front would be good: Who would milk a story of failure? But that’s what he did.

    Anyhow, the last two books stink to high heavens. In his post were some hints that he would be changing the plot, possibly to show the series up for failing to respect his last two disastrous productions, possibly because he’s lost control over the plot completely. That would be his “butterfly effect.” If that’s what’s happening, then the show will give us the ending we were supposed to get over a decade ago.

    IF that’s the case, more power to the show.

  598. Tar Kidho,

    It is not the first time I hear this. And you have every reason to think so. This is not an off season transition, and the locker room is filled with big egos.
    But I mean, inexperience is inexperience. You have got to start somewhere. Pep succeeded from Barcelona B to Barcelona. It was a little different situation. But it can happen.

    I hope he does well. We love Zizou. I realize that he is not in the optimal situation to succeed, but it’s Zizou. It’s hard not to get excited about him and hope he can pull this off because it would be epic.

  599. Matthew The Dragon Knight:
    I need a trailer!!!!!!!
    Some news……

    The premiere dates for Seasons 4 and 5 were both announced at the TCA press tour. The TCA starts tomorrow and HBO has their conference on Thursday, so hopefully something then!

  600. SerNoName,

    I’ve been thinking how awesome it would be if GRRM had sansa turn to the dark side & Arya comes out of the dark.
    I’ve been imagining sansa becoming so power hungry, she kills a slew of people like robin, lysa, lf, cersei maybe, rickon, osha, Jon.
    Ayra, on the other hand, completes all of her revenge, feels empty inside. She heads north, hooks up with Nymeria & plays an important part in saving the world, redeeming herself. Like a lot of warriors, (brienne, bronn, jaime, davos) after hardships/wars, she contemplates how she wants to die & what next? She decides, she wants a quieter life, maybe to die of old age in arms of Gendry? ?

  601. cosca:
    flintstonewielder,

    Nonsense. Chad Brick is the ubermensch, nothing phases him. He was given a holy order to kick online ass, by the great man Martin himself.

    He is the Chad Norris of bookpurist fandom !

  602. Ginevra:
    LivveyHL,

    You could have just said, “George RR Martin is not your bitch, bitch.”That’s pretty much what Neil Gaiman has said.http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.html

    Neil Gaiman can stick it in his … ear. Love how that guy admonishes the entitled masses while bitching about the accommodations on his first class flight. In an interview, he said the only thing an author owes their reader is a good book: that’s what the reader paid for. But in Martin’s case, he is writing a series — not stand alone works. When a reader buys a book in a series, there is the expectation of another book some time in the future. If the author has been happy-assholing around going to conventions, pimping ancillary products and conspicuously doing everything under the sun except what his customers expect from him, there’s gonna be some grumbling. When said author continually maintains that writing the series is a top priority, readers should call bullshit.

  603. SerNoName,

    I would just very much like to see Sansa putting two and two together and getting four. Just once. Before the series ends.

    But maybe that’s the day she dies. Or will little fingers Mummy Daughter fantasy cloud his vision?

  604. MaesterMercy:
    SerNoName,

    I’ve been thinking how awesome it would be if GRRM had sansa turn to the dark side & Arya comes out of the dark.

    I think there are some parallels between Arya and Sansa’s stories. Both were separated from their family; both separated from their direwolves (one permanently, one not, hopefully); both had to survive alone in a dangerous place (Arya in the Riverlands, Sansa as hostage of the Lannisters and kicking-ball of Joffrey); both protected by the Hound; both are ‘apprentices’ learning dangerous skills (Arya to become an assassin with the Faceless Men, Sansa to become a game player by Littlefinger); and finally both are currently living under an assumed identity and being encouraged to forget they ever were Starks. Arya has hidden Needle to regain her identity, Sansa hears ghost wolves howling in the mountains and tries to model her behavior on Jon. I think both will regain their identities.

    Not sure what precisely this all means, other than I think both characters will end up in a similar place in the end – not in the dark, both regained their own identities as Starks.

  605. Simon:
    MaesterMercy,

    Finally some sense. Arya and Gendry yes. Jon and Arya icky.

    Yes, in a series where the most important romance from a plot and character perspective is between a brother and a sister (both POVs), where the central ruling dynasty practiced incest as a matter of policy, where that same central ruling dynasty’s complicated incestuous romantic liaisons are detailed at some length in TWOIAF and TPATQ, and where one of the central POV characters is the product of a brother-sister union (as well as multiple non-POV characters), GRRM would never pair off two leading characters raised as brother and sister romantically because it’s “icky.”

    I’m increasingly convinced that Jon/Arya is endgame, but if it isn’t, it’s not because GRRM has a problem writing about incestuous romances. Clearly, he doesn’t.

  606. Pigeon:
    The creepy Sansa/Sandor shippers will be the death of me. And not simply because he’s my favourite character and she my third least. The guy needs someone who’s as tough as he is who can call him on his bullshit and gain mutual respect. Sansa needs her fawning prince, or better yet, someone who she can completely walk over.

    Better YET, why does everyone have to be paired up in every story? If it wasn’t for the fact that Sansa has always wanted the ‘fairytale’ and been denied it to this point, I think she would likely be stronger as her own best company. Alone doesn’t necessarily equal lonely, people!

    I feel remarkably better now. Don’t poke me.

    *poke* But I won’t toss you from the boat as I happen to agree with you. I don’t understand the need for “shipping” all the time. And some of these pairs just seems so unlikely to me, like The Hound and Sansa. Pffffft. Arya and Gendry makes sense…they ran together for a time and got along until the end when he was taken. I don’t see Jon with Daeny…they are opposites of fire/ice.

    We are starting to get to end game here, especially after this upcoming season. If there are going to be “ships” best get at it or do people think that it will all happen in the last episode? I doubt that they have been “paying attention”, the ending will be bittersweet according to GRRM, not Cinderella or Sleep Beauty.

  607. M,

    I fact this relation ship is incestuous in a Targ or J&C way. At worst they would be kissing cousins but I just don’t see it and the reason is because of the show. I know Martin has written all the characters at very different ages as they are portrayed on GOT however even he I imagine sees the TV character’s faces when he visualises the portrayed characters – especial they key characters. Remember he writes for the show and is consulted on the series plotting. This I think will be enough to prevent this from putting Jon and Arya in the same bed.

    Yes he has included incest in the show however it almost always ends in tragedy and not just in the case of incest but in general sense of following your heart and desire. Egg follows his heart and allows his sons to do they same and that results in tragedy. Lyanna and Rhaegar, Rob and Tilisa likewise. I wouldn’t even be surprised if Jamie kills his sister in the end. It’s only the small folk who find love or the unimportant perhaps Sam and Gilly but that remains to be seen.

  608. FreeParking,

    They make some great points. And we have every right to be disappointed. At the same time, though, we have no right to be indignant and outraged.

    GRRM has broken plenty of commitments to himself and to us. Though I don’t think he recently set a hard deadline, he has often and recently said that the show would never overtake the books, and he was wrong even as he said it.

    But don’t we all have friends like this? My friend Roger has never made it to anything on time. He showed up to my wedding as I was walking down the aisle, and he was all, “Who starts weddings on time?” And I was all, “the two things you are never late to are weddings and funerals.”

    So while I definitely feel disappointed, I would say that 99% of us have been later than we said we’d be for something – perhaps more like 99.9%. And then there are 1% of us who are never on the time they say they’ll be on, the Rogers of the world, and they have no clue whatsoever that they will be late. That would be George. And yes, we should be frustrated with George. We should tell him that the wedding starts half an hour before it actually starts, at least. Or maybe we shouldn’t invite George to a wedding at all, come to think.

    So we should be sad. We should mourn. We should maybe even be a little angry. But we shouldn’t be that surprised by this point, and we should get over it.

  609. Ginevra:
    Pigeon,

    Felicia Day!I know, I know.Bad George.Very bad.But this made my – well, you know.

    I see what you did there. 😛 Now if they could recruit Nathan Fillion…..

  610. JCDavis,

    And how….

    Arya and Gendry I can see. She’s so indignant, but he’s the one ‘boy’ you can tell she respects. And he is a Baratheon after all (not in name, of course)….could be an interesting dynamic. Every time he rows by us, I mention it. 😀 Perhaps they can bond over their friend Red.

  611. Ginevra,

    Oh, I am certainly not surprised that the book is not coming out before season six. I don’t really care anymore. There is no way GRRM can finish this with seven books, and thus the series will never be finished.

    I find your wedding time analogy funny, because that is basically what the publishers did. They gave him a fake deadline (October), while the real deadline was December. GRRM being GRRM blew both of those dates.

  612. Pigeon: Arya and Gendry I can see.

    That also is foreshadowed in the very first episode and opening chapters: I have a son, you have a daughter, let’s join our houses. Of course, Gendry is not of House Baratheon, but he is Robert’s son.

    However…. one thing to keep in mind is htat when GRRM wrote that, he intended there to be a 5 year hiatus between stories. (Not real time while he watched football: but book time.) So, Arya would have been in her mid-teens, which in Westeros is pushing old maid status. And Gendry’s chest would have been rippling even more than it was in the first book.

    So, who knows. Arya might still be in her early teens when it ends, which is more or less like being in your late teens / early 20’s in our world. Of course, on the show, Maise Williams will be 21 when it’s done: and at that point, she might be eager to have some romantic scenes if she has not already done them in side projects. After all, she does not want to be typecast as the “tom boy” indefinitely!

  613. Shy Lady Dragon,

    They’d make a good couple, I agree. Lady D remember what I brought up earlier? I’m going to give obscure hints. When guessing, also be vague. This could be fun 🙂

    1. Somebody could possibly have put on their hat crooked, but you can’t tell at first glance.

  614. Pigeon,

    It’d be twisty if Arya’s the one who falls in love and settles down with someone that has King’s blood (so a prince) and our Lady Sansa ends up being romanced by none other than The (reformed) Hound.

  615. YgritTe:
    Shy Lady Dragon,

    Lady D remember what I brought up earlier? I’m going to give obscure hints. When guessing, also be vague. This could be fun

    1. Somebody could possibly have put on their hat crooked, but you can’t tell at first glance.

    This is a late Christmas present for you:
    https://twitter.com/HilaryHeffron/status/680505558273671168

    But I think you already have seen it, because you speak of crooked hats which are not noticed at first glimpse, just because the beholder… well, has to look at different things.
    Don’t tell me I have just solved the puzzle, I’m not usually good at charades.

  616. Shy Lady Dragon,

    I’ve seen it 🙂 You have solved one thing right away. Good!

    2. That hat is not crooked but as an analogy let’s go with it…it can be described as floppy. (wracking my brain trying to tie this in somehow lol) OK…name a kind of human interaction that could be called such, if unsuccessful.

  617. YgritTe,

    I’ll say it’s an unsuccessful courtship or lacking the ability to simply notice a person who could be suitable for you.
    Edit: now I see that you refer to a certain movie… Need a minute to think…
    I know Pompeii was received badly and, googling Seventh Son (which I haven’t seen) I see it’s also considered a failure… but now I’m curious to watch it!

  618. I wonder what george’s new years resolution has been… For the past 4 years?

    Nothing new to report here. George doesn’t like deadlines because he is unprofessional. Thank god we have david and dan or else we would never have some sort of ending to the story. They would actually like to end their show at some point so they can go back to their families in a reasonable amount of time.

  619. Shy Lady Dragon,

    You’re headed in the right direction with “unsuccessful courtship.”

    Um I don’t know where to go with this now…what did I start lol? Lemme think….Okay when somebody could be dating a lot but doesn’t what’s one reason they might not be?

    Btw you can skip the Seventh Son and not miss out on much of anything 🙂 Unless you’re really into the sorcerer’s apprentice/bad witch type fantasy genre. I only watched for Kit but he was in like just the first few minutes and then *poof.*

  620. YgritTe,

    This is me desperately trying to bring you some news 🙂
    http://www.justjared.com/tags/kit-harington/
    It could mean that the person has too high, unrealistic expectations on the others; maybe the person was too trustworthy in their youth, with a bad, unfaithful partner and can’t really trust anyone again. Maybe I’m too biased here: that happens with my brother. He’s been trying to find a serious relationship for a long time, has lots of qualities but he can’t find the right woman although he dates a lot. I so much wish him to be happy, but I’m really worried about his chances.
    But I somehow sense that’s not what you implied here…

  621. asfastasican,

    Ironic huh. Seeing as how much of the sullied didn’t agree with many aspects of how David and Dan adapted the books to screen those two might end up being their only saving grace for finding out how the story actually ends.

    Random: I used to be an avid reader. I’d stay up all night lost in a good book. Then for some reason, when I quit smoking, I also lost interest in reading novels. Go figure.

  622. YgritTe,
    I don’t think he likes men. We live in a time when people can state their sexual preferences and not be stoned (except for certain countries, which is not the case here). I know single women who spend a lot of time with close woman friends (going out to pubs and movies, travelling together) and are rumoured to be gay. In fact, they just take a break of dating, trying to figure out what they want in a partner. And it’s pleasant and safe to enjoy yourself with people you don’t need to impress or charm, because they love you anyway.
    And about Kit, maybe he’s to busy being resurrected 🙂

  623. Shy Lady Dragon,

    Oh drats you aren’t playing the game anymore Lady D 🙂

    I didn’t want to pose the question openly because I want to protect a person’s right to keep it private, just in the off-chance that is the case 🙂

  624. YgritTe,

    Sorry, I thought it was game over. Your good intentions honour you and I’m sure nobody could blame you. Even if it were true, be sure that some other people might have the same supposition and not be so careful. When someone is a public person stranger things might be said about them!

  625. Shy Lady Dragon,

    It’s Okay, I’m glad you caught on and gave your opinion, which is what I was looking for after all 🙂 I read a Daily Mail page similar to that article and a couple of people made reference that they thought so in the comments and I thought “No way.” But then I found out what kind of festivities go on there and was like..wait..what? Can’t be, not him! Lol.

  626. FreeParking,

    I actually thought of a second and perhaps more appropriate analogy last night. I wasn’t going to mention it until you one-upped me.

    The average person has no idea what it is to work without close supervision. As a college instructor, I see this so much with kids straight out of high school. They don’t get how to study outside of class and how to regulate themselves – especially in an online class. Some online professors are stupid enough even to not set any deadlines for a course until the end of the course. I say stupid because only half as many – or less! – pass the course if a professor sets no intermediate deadlines. Most people can never successfully pace themselves. It takes so much dedication, motivation, and organization. So when intermediate deadlines are self-imposed, as they are with most authors, you would have perhaps a 50% chance of success with your average college student.

    But my real analogy is for those students who have even more free reign over there time: the students working on their doctoral dissertations. Only 57% of students who start a PhD will finish, https://chroniclevitae.com/news/445-in-hindsight-former-ph-d-students-reflect-on-why-they-jumped-ship, within 10 years! (A PhD shouldn’t take but about half that long, BTW.) And there’s a huge amount of those who drop who’ve finished 100% of their coursework and qualifying exams and who’ve begun working on their dissertations who never actually finish!

    Now, these PhD students who’ve passed qualifying exams are almost all Type A people. They get shit done. Especially compared to undergrads. So why do so many who’ve already spent years of their lives (and perhaps thousands of their dollars) working toward a degree abandon all hope when they are so close? They just can’t self-regulate to the extent that writing a dissertation demands – which is probably much the same amount of self-regulation as is needed for finishing a book of this quality and length. So a huge chunk of PhD students are so late that they have no hope of finishing (after 10 years, most institutions won’t grant a degree), but imagine how many PhD students miss the first deadline for finishing. I imagine more than half.

    So this isn’t just showing up for a wedding on time, which anyone who truly tried could do with ease. This is really hard stuff to do. Can other authors of high quality, thousand-paged books make every book deadline? Absolutely. Can most such authors make every deadline? Perhaps. Should all such authors be expected to do it? Fuck no.

  627. YgritTe:
    Shy Lady Dragon,

    They’d make a good couple, I agree. Lady D remember what I brought up earlier? I’m going to give obscure hints. When guessing, also be vague. This could be fun

    1. Somebody could possibly have put on their hat crooked, but you can’t tell at first glance.

    I couldn’t find what you brought up earlier. Can I have that, too? I love a good mystery.

    ETA: Oh, we’re talking about someone who is an actor on the show who is gay? If it’s the actor I’m thinking, my gaydar isn’t going off. I could be wrong. My gaydar isn’t all that.

  628. George hang in there and keep your focus!! I can only speak for myself, but I do appreciate the fact that he is still working on them. No matter how we rant and rave, he will finish when the book is complete and up to his standards. Its so damn easy for us to criticize and get angry with him, but I remember this, this is his books that he has shared with us, and that he will complete the books when they are done. Let us not come down hard on him, but let us anxiously await for The Winds Of War to be completed.

  629. Ginevra,

    You are so right! I speak from experience. I’m not good with pacing my work, so it took 7 years to finish my Ph.D although I love the subject (Aestheticism and esoteric traits). It would have taken even longer if the university hadn’t set a deadline. There was always something else to read and some parallel to make, then I got bored with this lovely theme… I needed a lot of support from my boyfriend to finish it. Had I found the right pace from the beginning, I would have finished it earlier and without any trouble.

  630. Ginevra,

    The only gay actors from the show are already out. I didn’t know this because normally I don’t look for things like that lol.

  631. YgritTe,

    Ah, okay. Thanks. I don’t follow the star news much, so I didn’t know. But I kept thinking that British actors may want to remain in the closet, but they hopefully wouldn’t have to fear retribution for fans speculating on their preferences, not in that country.

    Shy Lady Dragon, I’ve never done a dissertation, but I know a lot of people personally who started without finishing, which is always devastating. I’m glad you finished!

    BTW, I think it was one of you two who mentioned exercise as a good battle for depression, but I think that the exercises you mentioned were mostly outdoors. Vitamin D can be a terrific weapon against depression, and the best way to get D is sun. Exercise is certainly good, too, but I think Vitamin D has at least as big a role.

  632. Ginevra,

    Ginevra I’m so glad you mentioned Vitamin D! Knew there was something I was forgetting to get and that’s it. I work nights/sleep days so in the winter, never really see the sun. But I’m hearing about how the lack of vitamin D plays a role in so many things, yes depression being one, and many are testing low in it especially in the colder climates. My doctor wouldn’t test my levels because of something to do with insurance not covering unless there’s diagnosis or some shit like that. Just going to ask pharmacist what mg to take.

  633. Ginevra,

    The thing is I think GRRM needs actual hard deadlines with real consequences. These soft deadlines clearly are not working. The problem is I don’t know how they could enforce them.

  634. There is an article out there somewhere about published authors and their writing habits, be it so much time devoted to writing each day, a page or word limit. And those are self-imposed deadlines.

    As someone who has worked with self-imposed deadlines successfully (got that doctorate) and unsuccessfully (sure, I’ll finish that novel…one day), I can only say that if you don’t develop good habits early, it’s going to be a problem. I was able to finish one because of the financial implications and my responsibilities to others; it was a job. I haven’t been able to finish the other because no one and nothing else depends on it; it is a hobby.

    With GRRM, he treats me like writing like a hobby and not a job. He writes when the inspiration strikes him and only in a particular environment. That’s a problem. It’s not too late for GRRM to start developing better habits. He can. He just has to have the will to do so.

  635. Deesensfan,

    Yes, they dated. Imho he is straight, just happen to travel with some male friends as he doesn’t have a girlfriend at the moment.

  636. FreeParking,

    It’s tough. With giants like that, you don’t want to make them angry, I hear. But if I were his editor, I might ask that he give me each chapter as he completes it, even though I wouldn’t really be able to do anything with it because he’ll want to edit all of the chapters first – and probably several times – before an editor really gets to working on it. But it would just be like turning in HW, innit? And then I would ask for a chapter every month. That would be perfectly reasonable, right? If that seemed to be going well, I might try to quicken the pace to three weeks and then to two. Would it work? I’m not sure, but at least it would be something. They might already be doing this.

    ETA: Hard deadlines don’t work, either. Online students have hard deadlines if they don’t finish their work on time at the end of the term in that they fail the course. And PhD students have the hard deadline of never completing the PhD if they don’t do it in a total of 10 years. And even still, that doesn’t work for every type of person. So the only thing a hard deadline might do is ensure that we never get the end. Intermediate deadlines are the key, if you can get George to take these deadlines relatively seriously. And at this point, I think he would welcome trying something new.

  637. Ginevra,

    I wish you managed my work. I don’t know if it would have worked with a giant like Martin, but it certainly would make me more organized.

  638. HotPinkLipstick,

    Exactly! Those are also intermediate deadlines, albeit self-imposed. I would think they’d be even more successful if the editor imposed them. That way, George could feel a little guilty every single month when reporting in rather than overwhelmingly guilty every year or so.

  639. HotPinkLipstick,

    Does it help if a fellow fan would like to read your novel? What kind of novel is it, what’s the main theme? And, more importantly (for me) what language are you writing in? I mean if it’s Dutch or Danish, no matter how interesting it is, it would be lost for me.

  640. Deesensfan,

    Yes he is! Thats why I’d have been crushed if he happened to be… you know. Speaking of Rose, I wonder why they have been so private about their relationship.

  641. Shy Lady Dragon,

    Oh…the novel. Every year that goes by with minimal progress makes what I wrote before seem more immature

    It is never going to happen and if I were clever, I would pitch it and start fresh with something new, some new perspective and idea so I come to it as a more fully realized adult rather than writing what would be the equivalent of some really bad YA.

    But thank you. 🙂

  642. HotPinkLipstick,

    I’m so glad you replied, I was afraid that I might have been too nosey and offended you.
    Imho if you began writing it in the first place and it is still in your mind there is something inside you that has been struggling to become literature. I know nothing about you but what you post on this site, but I venture to say that you should give yourself the chance of moving a part of your mind and soul into a work of art. Time passes, we grow up and change, but there’s a core which remains unaltered. This can be preserved in your novel, even if the rest might become more “adult”. But finish it and then, if it’s not good, I’m sure an editor (or several) will tell you that. But if it is good indeed, it would be a shame not to let it live and maybe make some readers happy.
    Keep up with your work, I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you!

  643. Shy Lady Dragon,

    Now I’m all touched. Why does support from a random stranger sometimes mean so much more than support from people who know me?

    But seriously, part if it is I don’t like what I was doing with it, but it’s like pants that no longer fit. I keep them in my closet thinking I will one day lose that fifteen pounds. But I’m not. So I should let it go and buy new pants.

    I still write though. Just not that particular piece.

  644. Darn it.. The thread is stagnating. I had hopes it would reach the 1K mark. Has any post ever reached it before? Come on folks! Just a little over a 100 more!

  645. Henry Gordon,

    That would work, but maybe some speculating would do it, too.
    For instance, what bigger characters do you think will die in TWOW?

    Just based on the show, I’d say some shoe-ins are:

    Stannis
    Shireen
    Selyse
    Ser Barristan
    Myrcella

  646. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    I had my bat-shit crazy “Queen Shireen” theory dashed by TV last year, and I suspect your right re: her WoW fate.

    Will Mel exhaust herself and expire at castle black? What about the twins probable upcoming dramatic demise? Also possible for WoW, especially if it’s a doorstop.

  647. Henry Gordon,

    Your comment about Mel leads me to another potential discussion.
    Which characters would you like to see die in TWOW?

    As far as Mel goes, though, I could see that happening. If it does, though, I hope we find out a little more about her, first. I think some Red Priest or Priestess needs to be involved in the endgame, but I would like to see Mel die. I would, however, rather see someone kill her, if that’s even possible, than that she just wears herself out.

    Regarding the twins

    I no longer know what to think. I used think it would be too obvious for Jaime to be the valonqar, just as I thought “we came into this world together, and we’ll leave this world together” was too obvious. However, we’ve been trained to expect the unexpected and to not go with the obvious to the point I think it’s possible the obvious becomes the unexpected. So, maybe they do go out in the dramatic fashion to which I think you may have been eluding. As far as that happening in TWOW, I kind of think we may need more than just one Lannister (Tyrion) left for ADOS. I guess that means I think Tommen will die in TWOW, too.
  648. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Mel’s easy to hate, specially after Shireen, but she’s too complex, even in the show, to just be written off as evil. If she dies in WoW, I’m sure it’ll be spectacular. Even moreso if she’s

    already dead!!!

    I think Balon’s brothers are a zero-sum. There can be only one, or none. I must admit here to hoping they all die, having found that generation of iron islanders tedious. I don’t get the appeal of Euron yet.

  649. Inventing material is difficult but grrm has the bulk of the entire series in his head. However filling in highly detailed chapters is tedious. I have to hand it to the guy hes done great considering the real guy i imagine him to be… GOT is confirmed for 8 seasons and probably no more they have to stretch the series a bit. The delay is all part of marketing schemes. He’s still being a dick about imho.

  650. The RedTeamReview has several You Tube videos up regarding the Histories and Lore of the different Houses and a complete history compilation in parts. I’ve only viewed one so far as I’ve just now come across it, but for those of us who don’t have the time or inclination to read the Books it might be interesting to check out.

  651. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
    Henry Gordon,

    Your comment about Mel leads me to another potential discussion.
    Which characters would you like to see die in TWOW?

    I would also like Mel to die and for the same reason. But more than that, the Boltons! Unfortunately I can’t see Iwan without recalling his very different characters in Misfits (where I loved him) and Vicious (the two huge British thespians – Ian McKellan and Derek Jacobi – might have been the heart of the sitcom, but it was a pleasure to see the innocent kind-hearted young man interact with them). So, I’ll miss Iwan even if I want a horrible death for Ramsay.
    And there’s Pycelle whom I hate since Tyrion’s trial.

  652. Henry Gordon,

    I’m very curious to see Euron in the show. I don’t like the Ironborns, except for Asha/ Yara. Alfie did a great job in making me hate Theon when he took Winterfell, even more than I hated the character while reading the book.
    I’m afraid there’s no character I can hate more than I hated Joffrey. Trant and Slynt were close, but couldn’t reach that high peak.

  653. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Ramsay needs to go. Preferably in some gruesome fashion.

    Other candidates I think should bite it this season are
    – Roose (Free the North!),
    – Alliser Thorne (for his stupidity; plus maybe Olly)
    – Sweetrobin (Let the fight for the Vale begin!)
    – some Freys (Walder needs a spectacular death later on)
    – Tommen (so the prophecy can reach the next step)
    – Ellaria (Doran proving he’s a player)
    – Frankenmountain

    And thinking this further:
    – Candidates that I think should bite it later (season 7, beginning of season 8):
    Cersei, Walder Frey, Petyr, Melisandre, Qyburn, Lancel and High Sparrow, Euron

    – Characters I think will unfortunately bite it before the final showdown:
    Jaime, Brienne, Rickon, Greyworm or Missandei, Arya, Theon, Kevan, Trystane, minor characters I like (Pod, Edd, Manderly, …)

    – Characters I think will die in the showdown:
    Davos, Loras, Jorah, (maybe also Daario, Gendry, Jaime, Brienne, Yara, Tyrion and Jon)

    – Characters I think will untimately live:
    Danaerys, Sansa, Bran, Tyrion, Varys, Yara, Margaery, Doran

    What do you think?

  654. I know this is days late, but what the heck. Another post closer to the magical “1K” barrier.

    Anyway, I’ve been percolating this (unsurprising) news that tWoW won’t come out before Season 6 of GoT, and I’ve read all of the posts in this massive thread. I’ve come to some conclusions.

    1) We will eventually see tWoW … but most likely not until 2018, after GoT has wrapped up and ended the story.

    This is why I feel this way. For starters, it’s very obvious that GRRM treats writing aSoIaF as a hobby, not as a job. He’s a tremendously talented writer, there’s no question about it, but it’s still just a hobby for him. He’s rich beyond measure and will never want of anything again. So why put the pressure of a full-time job on himself when he can just travel around the world, watch NFL games, hobnob with celebrities, and work on side projects that he enjoys more such as his movie theater and “Wild Cards.” aSoIaF is now a burden to him, an obligation that he doesn’t particularly care about anymore.

    Also, GRRM has repeatedly stated that once he knows how a story ends, he loses interest in writing it. He knows how aSoIaF ends, which is why he lost interest in writing it. It also explains the huge difference in quality between the first three books and the last two. aGoT, aCoK, and aSoS were all fast-paced and tightly-plotted, with tons of story happening every page. Then he got to the Red Wedding and its aftermath, and he lost interest in the story after that. Because he got bored with the story, he decided to do some world-building instead, and that’s why Book #4 was split into the bloated aFoC / aDoD (and sadly, it’s not even a complete novel in of itself, as that story is still missing its climax).

    2) GRRM has completely lost control of his story, and it’s his own fault. As mentioned above, Book #4 was so massive it had to be split into aFoC and aDoD, and even then that story is still missing its climax which we will get in tWoW instead. This happened because GRRM got too caught up in world-building and got bored with the story. It’s also the fault of his editors, who apparently became too afraid to actually edit. Imagine a Book #4 that was severely trimmed down. We would’ve gotten rid of Dorne, the Iron Islands, and severely trimmed down on Brienne and Tyrion’s traveling. Just a tight story focusing on the build up (and the climax) to the Battle of Ice and the Battle of Fire. Much like what D&D did in Season 5. Now, that book would’ve kicked ass and probably been of the same quality as the first three books. Also, minus all of the worthless chaff, GRRM would’ve had an easier time working on tWoW because he wouldn’t have as many side characters to keep track of. Unfortunately, that book still probably would not be published to this day, and we’d be waiting 15 years for Book #4.

    3) No matter what happens … we will likely never see the published end of aSoIaF. Like I said above, GRRM has completely lost interest in writing this story. tWoW is still quite a while off, and then we have the 7th book which will probably take yet another 7-8 years for GRRM to write. And who’s to say he is even capable of getting his story back in control enough to wrap it up within two novels? It’s likely he’ll need a 8th book to provide an adequate conclusion. I say there’s a 5% chance aDoS is published before GRRM finally shuffles off this mortal coil, and if it ends up that a 8th book is needed, 0% chance of that ever being published.

    The only way that we’ll ever see the end of aSoIaF in published form is for GRRM to finally start treating this book as a job and not a hobby (highly unlikely considering his age … at this point, his habits are way too ingrained to change) or to finally admit he’s lost control of the story and to ask another writer to help him finish it (also highly unlikely considering he’s outright stated that if he dies before aSoIaF is done, he wants all notes and drafts to be destroyed). The ideal situation would be for GRRM to sit down with a writer such as Brandon Sanderson (who completed the Wheel of Time for Robert Jordan) and provide him with a detailed outline of important plot events, then let the other writer take care of putting these words onto paper. Then GRRM can come in afterwards and edit things so that it’s his style on the paper and make sure that everything is where it should be. GRRM seems to prefer editing to writing anyway.

    Until then … the only way we’ll ever get to see the end of this story is by this awesome TV show. Thanks, D&D! You guys rock!

  655. Why can’t he just publish the first part, if it’s around 700 pages long?

    I wouldn’t usually suggest that, but DwD ended up getting cut by the publishers and wasn’t the original ending anyway. So surely 600/700 pages or so now could be an option.

  656. Shy Lady Dragon,

    That’s because he’s the little bastard who had the audacity to take the head off our beloved Stark patriarch. One does not simply do that, without becoming most hated. Then again, one apparently does not let Sean Bean live either, so he was doomed by the gods from the beginning.

  657. Shy Lady Dragon,
    Theon is a pretty complex character, and worse scripts and acting could have made him very flat. But the show Theon has really conveyed almost all of the book character’s nuance.

    Can I get a look of hideous realization on the High Sparrow’s face as he meets a grisly fate (r’hollor? Dragon? Franken-clegane?) and realizes that the only god is power?

  658. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Characters I think we’ll see die
    The Mountain! Again.
    Ramsay. For the love of God!
    Jaime. I’d like to see him fully redeemed with a final sacrifice.
    Freys. Lots and lots and lots of bloody fucking Freys.
    Loras. He didn’t seem long for this world in the books.
    Tommen. We’ll need to have three gold shrouds. And he’s been king too long for winter.

    Characters I hope we’ll see die
    Mel
    Theon – bless his heart, he’s had enough
    Daario
    Baelish
    Little Lord Robert Arryn
    Cersei

    Who will we see for the first time in The Winds of Winter? Howland Reed? Tysha? Sarella? Well, we’ve already seen a bit of Sarella, and I believe we’ve seen Tysha, too. I’m not a follower of the theory that we’ve seen Howland Reed, though.

  659. dee:
    Nymeria Warrior Queen,
    – Characters I think will ultimately live:
    Danaerys, Sansa, Bran, Tyrion, Varys, Yara, Margaery, Doran

    What do you think?

    You forgot the two most important Starks, Jon and Arya. I’m okay with the ones you’ve listed.

  660. Ginevra,

    I hope Davos makes it, but I know better than to trust hope in Westeros.

    There’s a new Alt-Shift-x today. Mrs. Jago & I gonna curl up with a coupla glasses of single malt & enjoy.

  661. Henry Gordon,

    I don’t see much evidence that Davos is likely to die, although I also don’t see a strong reason that he needs to live other than that we love him, which isn’t nearly good enough for GRRM. For these cases, I just didn’t speculate one way or another. Perhaps I should so wildly speculate that Jon and Arya will ultimately survive, but they are my two favorite characters, and I have reason to believe they’ll make it until the end.

    I’m reading tonight. I should get back to that. But I’ll check back tomorrow to keep up the march to a thousand.

  662. dee,

    I’ll have to spend some time thinking in terms of the show. I was thinking book-wise, although, yes, I did mention the show insofar as I think the deaths I listed in the show we’ve seen in the show will also die in the books.

    Ginevra,

    I agree with you re: Howland Reed. I don’t think we’ve seen him yet, either. I hope we get to see more of Sarella. Regarding picking and choosing who we think will die, who we want to die, and who we think will be alive at the end, I, too, have a tough time separating what I think will happen from what I want to happen. For instance, I don’t want to see Jaime die, it’s quite possible he will, but I hope not. On the other side of it, I really want to see Cersei die. There are characters I just don’t like who would go on my “want to see die” list, but I have no particular reason for thinking they will.

    For instance, I’d like to see Arianne die. She is one of my least favorite characters. Interestingly enough, that would leave us with only Trystane, which could tie in pretty well with the shows choice to only include that particular child of Doran.
  663. Ginevra:
    FreeParking,

    I actually thought of a second and perhaps more appropriate analogy last night.I wasn’t going to mention it until you one-upped me.

    The average person has no idea what it is to work without close supervision.As a college instructor, I see this so much with kids straight out of high school.They don’t get how to study outside of class and how to regulate themselves – especially in an online class.Some online professors are stupid enough even to not set any deadlines for a course until the end of the course.I say stupid because only half as many – or less! – pass the course if a professor sets no intermediate deadlines.Most people can never successfully pace themselves.It takes so much dedication, motivation, and organization.So when intermediate deadlines are self-imposed, as they are with most authors, you would have perhaps a 50% chance of success with your average college student.

    But my real analogy is for those students who have even more free reign over there time:the students working on their doctoral dissertations.Only 57% of students who start a PhD will finish, https://chroniclevitae.com/news/445-in-hindsight-former-ph-d-students-reflect-on-why-they-jumped-ship, within 10 years!(A PhD shouldn’t take but about half that long, BTW.) And there’s a huge amount of those who drop who’ve finished 100% of their coursework and qualifying exams and who’ve begun working on their dissertations who never actually finish!

    Now, these PhD students who’ve passed qualifying exams are almost all Type A people. They get shit done. Especially compared to undergrads. So why do so many who’ve already spent years of their lives (and perhaps thousands of their dollars) working toward a degree abandon all hope when they are so close? They just can’t self-regulate to the extent that writing a dissertation demands – which is probably much the same amount of self-regulation as is needed for finishing a book of this quality and length. So a huge chunk of PhD students are so late that they have no hope of finishing (after 10 years, most institutions won’t grant a degree), but imagine how many PhD students miss the first deadline for finishing. I imagine more than half.

    So this isn’t just showing up for a wedding on time, which anyone who truly tried could do with ease. This is really hard stuff to do. Can other authors of high quality, thousand-paged books make every book deadline? Absolutely. Can most such authors make every deadline? Perhaps. Should all such authors be expected to do it?Fuck no.

    This honestly hurts so damn much to read.. I’m one of those that finished all the required coursework, but has been stuck at writing the thesis for two and a half years, with only a slight hint of an end in sight.

    Now I feel bad..

  664. @Ser Oromis Lock

    Don’t say that. I’ve been working on my PhD vor 7 years, and I’ve published several articles in journals and such, but I doubt very much that I’ll ever complete that degree now.
    Doesn’t matter anymore anyways. I have a good, permanent, comparatively well-paid (for my area of expertise) job, so nothing will change careerwise if I do finish it in the end.

    Kind of like GRRM, now that I think of it. Nothing is going to change for him either if he completes the book – other than that nagging feeling of something still having to be done in the back of his mind.

  665. Nymeria Warrior Queen:

    dee,
    I’ll have to spend some time thinking in terms of the show.I was thinking book-wise, although, yes, I did mention the show insofar as I think the deaths I listed in the show we’ve seen in the show will also die in the books.

    Oops, sorry, I got confused.

    As for TWoW:
    Who I think should die:
    – Ramsay (his time is up), Roose
    – Sweetrobin (to advance the plot)
    – Victarion
    – the mutineers on the Wall (after they realize their mistake)
    – Frankenmountain and his opponent
    – Tommen

    – Myrcella (for the prophecy)
    – Mance (to allow Jon to come into his own as a leader)
    – Stannis (for the same reason), Shireen
    – Aegon/fAegon

    .
    Who I think will unfortunately die in TWoW:
    – Brienne
    – Theon
    – some not-yet-dead Jon supporters on the Wall

    – Arianne
  666. Ygritte,

    As much as I suffered when I saw what happened to Ned, it was necessary for starting the war and sending the Starks in their real and spiritual journeys. Executing an innocent man for high treason in order to stop a dark secret to be disclosed is what, sadly, many characters (Lannisters or not) would have done. But the repeated cruelty on the poor hostage fatherless girl and the pleasure Joffrey took from it was unbearable.

  667. Henry Gordon,

    Indeed! But intellectualy recognizing the complexity of a character doesn’t stop my visceral hatred for those who deceive and are mean. I really felt sorry for Theon during his Reek penitence phase – to some extent, it was harder to watch then the torture scenes. (“Do you love me, Reek?” “Of course, master!”)I don’t know whether you read the Theon chapter which is said to belong to TWOW, I don’t want to spoil anything for you, so I’ll just say Theon’s fate is full of dark irony.
    The High Sparrow is another villain in his religious absolutist body so I really hope someone will take care of him. If it’s Drogon, even better!
    And there are Freys, lots of Freys to be erased, starting with their patriarch. Unfortunately, I don’t think Walder Frey would mourn for any of his relatives.

  668. Shy Lady Dragon

    From the both perspective of prosecution and defense, I’ve seen how one tragic mistake/error in judgment can completely destroy someone’s otherwise promising life, not to mention the lives of innocents. I’ve been there for the moment of realization when someone realized that their own mistaken choice authored their fate, and that there’s no way out. That’s what’s so well-conveyed by the look on Alfie’s face when the burned bodies are revealed, and in conversation with Luwin both in the book and show. It’s because Theon recognizes too late that he is essentially a Stark, and that he betrayed his true family that he is so compelling for me.

  669. dee,

    No need for sorry!!! I think it makes for a really interesting comparison.

    As far as the show goes, I think we’ll see Ellaria dies this season, for sure.
    I think Daario may not be long for this world. I’d say Jorah, but since he was given greyscale, I expect him to survive until Dany gets to Westeros. In King’s Landing, I think Tommen may well die, and it wouldn’t surprise me if Loras died, too. I think, sadly, Tormund will die *season 6 filming info. spoiler*

    mostly because when I first read about the two people burning, my first thought was one of them was Tormund

    . I think most of the conspirators against Jon will die, certainly Thorne. I think Sweetrobin is also toast.

    Those are just the ones who come most quickly to mind by region.

  670. Henry Gordon,

    That’s a fine point you’re making here, ser! Theon being actually a Stark is something which never occured to me and yes, with this psychological belonging to the family he has betrayed his doom is even greater. I don’t think he’ll be much longer in this world both in the books and show (even if he will die in a different manner – I mean, what happened in that Theon chapter I was referring to can’t happen in the show anylonger because there’s no Stannis). And, something I have never imagined I could say, I feel sorry for Theon.

  671. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
    dee,

    No need for sorry!!!I think it makes for a really interesting comparison.

    It certainly does. Who do you think is endgame in both show and books? Somehow, I think they will not end up at the same place for all characters. For instance, I think Sansa will survive the show, but not the books.

  672. dee,

    If there’s one character who may survive in the show who won’t in the books, Sansa would be a top candidate, imo.

    As far as who I think will survive both, the only two I’m fairly certain will survive are Arya and Jon. With Arya, though, I’m not sure how much of that is really thinking she will, and how much is really wanting her to. I think Bran may survive, too. I realize that’s all Starks (well, one half-Stark), but as many as were killed off, it wouldn’t surprise me if most of the rest of them survive.

    I used to think Dany would be one of the definite survivors until the end, too, but the longer I’ve had to think about it, the less certain I am. She brought dragons back, and that may end up being the part of her which survives (although I’m not sure all 3 of them will survive, either), while she does not. I think Jon could fulfill the need for a Targ. to survive (and I kind of think a Targ. needs to survive). Moreover, this is A Song of Ice and Fire, and Jon embodies both of those. I now many think Tyrion will survive, but he’s another character who, the more I think about it, the more I think it’s possible he won’t make it until the end, either. I could see the Lannisters being completely wiped out.

    There are a few others I think could possibly survive, but with those few I could see it going either way, and I don’t have any concrete reason I think they’ll make it.

  673. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
    dee,

    If there’s one character who may survive in the show who won’t in the books, Sansa would be a top candidate, imo.

    As far as who I think will survive both, the only two I’m fairly certain will survive are Arya and Jon.With Arya, though, I’m not sure how much of that is really thinking she will, and how much is really wanting her to.I think Bran may survive, too.I realize that’s all Starks (well, one half-Stark), but as many as were killed off, it wouldn’t surprise me if most of the rest of them survive.

    I used to think Dany would be one of the definite survivors until the end, too, but the longer I’ve had to think about it, the less certain I am.She brought dragons back, and that may end up being the part of her which survives (although I’m not sure all 3 of them will survive, either), while she does not.I think Jon could fulfill the need for a Targ. to survive (and I kind of think a Targ. needs to survive).Moreover, this is A Song of Ice and Fire, and Jon embodies both of those.I now many think Tyrion will survive, but he’s another character who, the more I think about it, the more I think it’s possible he won’t make it until the end, either.I could see the Lannisters being completely wiped out.

    There are a few others I think could possibly survive, but with those few I could see it going either way, and I don’t have any concrete reason I think they’ll make it.

    This is almost exactly how I’m thinking things will happen as well. The one whom I have zero idea about is Rickon – it could really go either way. The interesting thing is that people were so invested in the Starks from the get-go, that they may not recognize that just as many Lannisters (counting Joffrey and Myrcella) and even more Baratheons ( all of them, actually) have already bit the dust. A Stark hasn’t died since S3.

    Arya and Jon I am almost sure will be there if not at the end, at least up to the end. I like to think Tyrion is….

    If I’m being conservative, I’ll say we’ll lose at least 3-4 major characters in S6, 1 or 2 of them POV characters.

  674. Pigeon,

    You make a good point about the Lannisters and Baratheons, but I tend to see those deaths in terms of them being more deserved. No, not Shireen or Myrcella, but certainly Renly, Stannis, Selyse, Joffrey, and Tywin. However I may think of Stannis, and I never liked him, whether in the books or on the show, I think Renly was wrong in declaring himself King. Robb did not declare himself King until others declared him so, and he only declared himself King in the North, not of the Seven Kingdoms. Moreover, his calling the banners and going to war was originally over his father. Yes, he acted dishonorably by marrying someone other than a Frey as he promised, but I just can’t see the Red Wedding as a justified reaction.

  675. The Problem with D’s Story and Dorne is that they sit in the world of fire (Dry arid countries) but without an equivalent threat like the White Walkers coming out of the extremes of heat as there is in the North. I’m starting to think that the stone men might be more than they seem and perhaps are there are white walker equivalents – stone walkers – who are not just afflicted with the disease but create the disease in others. There was talk of a stone king when Griff and co went through this area. They live a in a world close to Valyria that could be described as the world of always fire. Once the long night begins perhaps they could rise as well? ( the dragons could of course be that same threat)

    Just a thought in the interest of extending the thread. What do you think?

  676. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Definitely agree about Renly imo as well, and the various levels of ‘asking for it’, really (hello Joffrey). I wouldn’t say Robb deserved to die, certainly, but he made an incredibly stupid and naive decision, and in bringing Talisa to Edmure’s wedding pretty much was throwing it in the face of the Freys, who Catelyn certainly would know as not exactly above board or taken kindly to being slighted. One of the more ‘Oh for f*ck’s sakes’ moments for me. Especially with Cat unnecessarily killing Walder’s wife when she knew he didn’t give a rat’s arse. 😛 Sigh.

    I don’t suppose there’s anyone around who’d legitimize Gendry. The Baratheon’s seem to have broken their own spoke on the wheel for Dany.

  677. Pigeon,

    Yes, Robb made some very stupid decisions.

    As far as Gendry, I was thinking of him when responding to dee. In show-world, he’s the only surviving Baratheon (bastard though he is) of whom we’re aware.

    Forgive me, I can’t recall whether you’ve read the books, or not. If not, you may not want to click on the spoiler.

    In the books, though, Mya Stone and Edric Storm exist/are still alive.
  678. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    I’m pretty sure Tyrion lives, because GRRM tipped his hand in the first half of AGOT. I think it’s when he realizes that Cat is not taking him to Winterfell. His POV says something like “even when he thought back many years hence” about howCat had outsmarted him… I can’t find AGOT, or I’d throw you the exact quote.

  679. Henry Gordon,

    I think you might be referring to this one?:

    “Even now, long days later, the memory filled him with a bitter rage. All his life Tyrion had prided himself on his cunning, the only gift the gods had seen fit to give him, and yet this seven-times-damned she-wolf Catelyn Stark had outwitted him at every turn.”

    I do hope he outlasts them all….

  680. Pigeon,

    That’s it! I about choked on my scotch when I read that passage on my second time through the books. Tyrion, mad about being outsmarted , but in some secure future, it seems…

  681. Henry Gordon,

    It could be well into the future however the paragraph directly before this has Tyrion parting from Lady Stark annoyed that she has brought him to the high road rather than the eastern road. There are several current reasons to be annoyed just several long days ride after being released. One, the high road is dangerous. And Two, help will not find him in time as the Lannister’s will be looking for him on the east road.

    “Even now, long days later, the memory filled him with a bitter rage” seems very current. I also don’t think Tyrion would hold onto bitter rage for years and years – unless daddy dearest is involved. He’d more likely be I enjoy recounting his adventure sleeping in the sky cells, outwitting Lady Aryn, etc.

    I still think Tyrion will be there at the end and may marry Sansa again unless of course he discovers where whores go.

  682. Henry Gordon:
    Pigeon,

    Tyrion, mad about being outsmarted , but in some secure future, it seems…

    Thanks a lot, guys, for this sweet assurance! It also signals that’s high time I began my rereading of ASOIAF, I could discover some unnoticed gem.

  683. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    I wonder what will happen to the significance of bloodlines. Somehow I think that with the onset of winter or at least with the onset of spring the pack will have been reshuffled. How much, however, remains to be seen.

    I could imagine the “new” Westeros being a meritocracy (at least in the beginning – new Great Houses will form eventually) where the ones who did stuff during the second long night and lived will accept leadership in the time of rebuilding society. But that would mean that the old names will ultimately be insignificant. Jon may rule not because he is the rightful heir or Rhaegar’s son but because he led the army against the Walkers. Gendry may take over a castle and become a lord not because he is of Baratheon blood but because he became a hero of that war, etc. Only the Starks may remain as kings in the North, as they have always been.

    But then, maybe this is way too positive a scenario and I “haven’t been paying attention”.

  684. dee,

    I wonder about the bloodlines, as well.
    I definitely think if Jon ends up ruling, it will not be based on his bloodlines (although those will be important in terms of the fight), but on him leading the fight against the WW’s.

    As far as being too positive, I’ve no doubt some of what takes place in the endgame will be crushing. However, even Martin’s bittersweet (and speaking specifically off the bittersweet ending of LOTR) comment aside, just the title of the final novel, A Dream of Spring, hints at hope, imo. What happens after even the darkest night? Dawn. As winter wanes and spring approaches, just beneath the surface, regrowth and rebirth is already in the works. There’s an inherent hopefulness in that, at least to me.

  685. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
    dee,
    As far as being too positive, I’ve no doubt some of what takes place in the endgame will be crushing. However, even Martin’s bittersweet (and speaking specifically off the bittersweet ending of LOTR) comment aside, just the title of the final novel, A Dream of Spring, hints at hope, imo.

    You’re right. It’s gonna be hopeful, but somewhat melancholy because of all the losses that were necessary to achieve the final state of tentative hopefulness.
    I think most characters we’ve come to love will either die or lose some major part of themselves – be it physically or, worse, emotionally. It’s already starting. Resurrected Jon will not quite be the same Jon anymore, Arya is losing her soul bit by murderous bit, Bran has lost his legs and is losing his individuality, many characters have lost body parts that defined them in major ways, and the ones who haven’t yet started to lose things are likely to be killed off before the end. What will remain of the people of Westeros as we know them will be maimed, not-quite-whole.
    They will bring forth something healthy and new, but the people we know will be lost to some degree forever – content, if they are lucky, but never again truly happy. Bittersweet.

  686. Henry Gordon,

    Given he used how Tolkien ended LOTR as an example of what he meant by “bittersweet,” I’m not expecting all that much sweetness. I’m expecting hints of some kind of happiness for maybe a few characters, but only hints. Moreover, whatever happiness those few characters may find will be tempered by the memories of what’s transpired.

  687. Btw, George has five cons coming up in 2016 – all of them between 3-5 weeks long (so he will be travelling for 1-2 weeks for those) and pretty evenly spaced out. With some more book signings and game visits thrown in here and there, do you think he’ll have more time to write?

    I mean, when you are stepping out of a writing process every few days/weeks (since George can’t write when he’s travelling), it’s always hard to get back in – at least for me and most people I know it is like that. Do you think George will have longe stretches of time to get stuff done inbetween than he did last year?

  688. dee,

    I don’t think so. I feel for the book readers. They have been on this journey for a long time and are hoping for a completion.
    GRRM just is not spending enough time on writing WoW.
    He us getting up there in age, he has enough money to have fun and smell the roses. I would probably do the same.

  689. dee,

    Well, from his NAB-output since his “boohoo deadlines” entry I would say that tWoW is not exactly top-of-mind.

  690. Newbietothegame,

    I’m not really that concerned with how much time he spends with it, but how effective that time is. For instance, if I spend 12 weeks writing consistently, I get a lot of stuff done, whereas if I spend a week every month (also 12 weeks) working on a thing, I get done a lot less because I have to constantly get back into the mindframe/reread and rethink stuff etc. So I could imagine it being more about not consistently spending time on it as opposed not spending enough time at all (which may also be the case, who knows).

    flintstonewielder,

    Sadly, I think that may be true. Maybe it’s become this big huge chore he has ahead of him that he simply doesn’t want to tackle. Like people clean their whole flat instead of writing a term paper that is due simply because the task is so daunting that they try to do everthing else (that also needs to be done eventually) first.

    Still, I want to hope that he finds it in himself to focus on it at least some of the time and that he works on it for enough 4-week stretches in 2016 that he can finish or nearly finish it for a publication in 2017.

  691. Did “the dragon has three heads” come from the song of ice and fire – like the literal prophetic song that talks about TPtwP? Or do we know? If so, would it not be poignant for the three heads to be ice and fire: one ice, one fire, and one both?

  692. Ginevra,

    Oooh, you mean like Dany – Bran/Arya – Jon?
    I’ll have to check with the books. But I’m doubtful it will turn out that way. I think it might really be fire, ice, a conflict and either compromise or mutual destruction. What would the function of a group be that already consists of fire and ice. It wouldn’t be fíre against ice, but fire and ice (but more fire) against ice. Hmm.

  693. Newbietothegame: Oh my, I pity that dragon..

    If several years pass until the final battle, maybe the dragon will be big and strong enough to be ridden by Wun Wun!
    Thanks for this image, Henry Gordon, it’s priceless 😉

  694. dee,

    You know, it´s so *in your face*. The Long Post got split into 7 individual entries, the last one being the *mea culpa*. Everybody jumped on that last entry and melted away. Truth is, you got to read those 07 entries as a single post, as originally intended by GRRM. Nobody seems to have done that.
    Quite the eye-opener and not very optimism-inducing.

  695. Henry Gordon:
    dee,

    I don’t care who the other two are as long as I get to see Wun-Wun on a dragon!

    Ah, that gave me a good laugh. Thanks.

    I’ll never forget, in the midst of freaking out while watching Hardhome, when Tormund said Wun-Wun’s name, I had a moment of sheer giddiness. Yes, I figured the giant had to be Wun-Wun, but still, in the middle of the chaos, desperation, and slaughter, when his name was actually said, I was like a little kid…”Wun-Wun!!!” 🙂

  696. dee:
    Btw, George has five cons coming up in 2016 – all of them between 3-5 weeks long (so he will be travelling for 1-2 weeks for those) and pretty evenly spaced out. With some more book signings and game visits thrown in here and there, do you think he’ll have more time to write?

    I mean, when you are stepping out of a writing process every few days/weeks (since George can’t write when he’s travelling), it’s always hard to get back in – at least for me and most people I know it is like that. Do you think George will have longe stretches of time to get stuff done inbetween than he did last year?

    He didn’t go to the Golden Globes this year. I guess that’s something. Maybe he’ll forgo a few more events this year. Who knows?

    Plenty of people WHO SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER (*cough* *cough*) made a big deal about him cancelling one con and forgoing another last year even though, historically, it remained a typical con year for Martin.

    Martin says he bookends a few days around appearances to transition to and from writer mode. Like most people.

  697. dee:
    Ginevra,
    Oooh, you mean like Dany – Bran/Arya – Jon?

    I’ll have to check with the books. But I’m doubtful it will turn out that way. I think it might really be fire, ice, a conflict and either compromise or mutual destruction. What would the function of a group be that already consists of fire and ice. It wouldn’t be fíre against ice, but fire and ice (but more fire) against ice. Hmm.

    That the war to come will involve much ice and fire is a given. We’ve got the Wall of ice, the ice-like Others, and the winds of Winter. And we might get to see ice spiders or even ice dragons.

    The Others are known to be defeatable with dragon-forged steel (dragon fire) and dragonglass (dragon fire). My best bet is that the dragons will also prove most vulnerable to direct dragon fire. The wights must be burned (regular fire) to die.

    However, I could easily expect Martin to instill meaning on multiple levels for the title of the series. Jon Snow is ice and fire. And perhaps it takes a collaborative effort of ice and fire to end the war of ice and fire. Obviously, this idea is far from certain, but I think most agree that Jon and Dany are two of the three heads. Since I don’t believe that Tyrion is a dragon, I think that Arya and perhaps even Bran are just as likely as Tyrion to be the third. If Jon and Dany were combined with either Arya or Bran, that would make for a trio of ice and fire to lead us to victory in the war of ice and fire.

    “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” –ACoK, p. 527.

    The series makes it unclear if this prophecy is directly from the song, but it seems like a good possibility.

  698. The Bastard:
    Ser Creighton Longbough,

    I have never thought books are more powerful.

    Movies have sound effects, music, visuals, and dialogue.The only thing it misses is internal thoughts.And a great actor and portray them on screen anyways.

    Look at Charles Dance.There are not enough words in the world to describe his presence in Game of Thrones.From his walk, to his mannerisms, to his ability to speak.Obviously my words don’t do it justice either….

    Well, as I said, they are different media. I love watching movies and TV series. Let’s take “The Mission”, for example: the story, the location, the music, De Niro, Morricone… It really is an orgasmic movie! 😀
    But still, there’s nothing like a book (a good book, of course). When I read a good book, I’m not a mere spectator, I’m inside that book! That’s what I mean when I say books are more powerful. I just feel more involvement when I read. Just my experience. 🙂
    The Bastard,

  699. Ser Creighton Longbough,

    Just reading your comment fort that haunting minor version of “Ave Maria” running in my head. Goosebumps. I think that’s the only movie soundtrack I own (except Frozen, for reasons)

  700. Henry Gordon,

    Ouch. Although, if the dragons are large enough … who knows, maybe WunWun is the prince that was promised. 🙂

    flintstonewielder,

    Depressing. I haven’t read the rest because I give very few s***s about the other projects. I thought I might read the whole thing at some point in the hopes of glimpsing some ASoIaF related information, but now I don’t really dare lest I lose the last bit of hope.
    Ginevra,

    “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.”

    This makes me almost sure that the three heads all have to be dragons, i.e. Targs or at least Valyrians. Rhaegar at least thought so – he specifically states that there must be one more in relation to the new-born baby, so I guess he means one more baby of his blood. This is the birth of Aegon, so Jon is the third head, at least as far as Rhaegar planned it.

    But now that Rhaenys and most likely Aegon are dead, who are the other two Targ heads? Dany is one. Which people do we know that have Valyrian/Targaryen blood?
    – Aegon/fAegon
    – the Martells (and their bastards) –> Doran, Arianne, Trystane, the Sand Snakes
    – the Baratheons (and their bastards) –> Stannis, Shireen, Mya, Edric, Gendry
    – the Daynes? (purple eyes) –> Edric, Gerold
    – Aurane Waters
    – Varys?
    – Tyrion?? (I personally don’t believe that.)

    Who of these is most likely to become the third head?

  701. Ser Creighton Longbough,

    I’m with you! While I can absolutely enjoy stories presented in a visual medium, I will always prefer a good book.

    That is not to say I don’t think D&D have done a mostly superb job with their adaptation, I do. However, I will still read the next book when it comes out, and even if I find it as uneven as I did the last two, there will still be parts of it I’ve no doubt will transport me in a way a visual medium never could.

  702. I really can’t choose between books and films/ series. As so many before me have said, they are different media. And when a good book gets a suitable adaptation, it’s a double treat. While reading I visualize a lot, but a good actor’s face can make the audience “read” what happens in their soul. Just remember Arya when she couldn’t give up Needle or Jorah any time Dany’s words hurt him.

  703. Shy Lady Dragon,

    Me neither. Or rather, I like both media at different times. Right now, RL is pretty good and I have a little time to read and lose myself in the text. But when my job pretty much requires all of my time, I can rarely find the time, let alone the patience, to immerse myself in a long-winding narrative and make the images up in my head. Then i crave the visual medium that gives me the feelings and expressions, the faces and settings along with the story.
    Plus, both have very different effects on me. And I want different kinds of effects at different times.

  704. I wonder, though: when you guys read George’s books now – can you still imagine the characters as you did when you first read the books, before the series started? I only read the books after season 2, so the characters were always the show caracters in my head.

  705. dee,

    I began reading the books after the first season, so for me the book characters have the actors’ faces. At least this is true for the characters in season 1. I was glad to see how much Gwendoline (prettier, though) looked like the Brienne in my mind. I can’t imagine a more suitable Oberyn, when I saw Pedro it was like I recognized him. Ygritte was a little different – wilder in my mind, with curly untamed hair, but I like the way Rose played the part: she looked sweeter, but was sexy and free. I don’t recall how I imagined Mance, he looked different, but I was happy to see Ciaran, I’m a big fan of his. Margaery seemed more innocent as I pictured her (only her looks) as I had already seen Natalie as Anne Boleyn, “the seductress with a political agenda”. Ramsey has a more sinister look in my mind, the vampire kind.

  706. Of course TWOW will not be published before the next season. HBO has too much money invested in this. They want people to learn Jon Snow’s fate at their season premier, not in a book.

    It’s been six years, the book is done, HBO does not want it released yet.

  707. JOhn:
    Of course TWOW will not be published before the next season.HBO has too much money invested in this.They want people to learn Jon Snow’s fate at their season premier, not in a book.

    It’s been six years, the book is done, HBO does not want it released yet.

    Sigh….I guess GRRM is just trolling us all with his post, in which HE said that the book is not finished. Ah, you sweet little troll; seeing a conspiracy at every corner…

  708. dee,

    Here, dee – this should keep your hopes up…

    grrm.livejournal.com/465952.html

    grrm.livejournal.com/467484.html

  709. 961 comments. At this point, I would like to rise to read my great-grandmother’s brownie recipe into the record of this august body…

  710. flintstonewielder,

    Thanks a bunch! 🙁
    Maybe I should try and get into this other stuff he’s doing. If only I could find it in myself to care. I’m sure on their own those other books of his are fun, but I’m developing an irrational dislike of them because of the passion and time they get that ASoIaF doesn’t.
    Really, you can’t tell anyone what to feel passion for, so good for him. But I can’t help feeling disappointed either.

    Henry Gordon,

    I encourage you to do so. I’m always on the lookout for the perfect brownie receipe.

  711. Edit time is kind of short. So another post right after the last b/c I forgot this:

    Shy Lady Dragon,

    Same for me with Ygritte. And oddly enough, she remains the curly-haired, less delicately built girl with slightly crooked teeth when I read about her character.
    Most other characters, though, have been replaced by show characters. For instance, I don’t even remember what I imagined Mance to look like. I thought Ramsay would be rather big-boned and brutal looking, but now he’s Iwan Rheon. And thank the show for (the) Daario(s): the Daario in my head was not the type you’d fall for.

  712. dee,

    I disliked Daario in the books, maybe because I don’t like and/ or trust the flamboyant bragging type in real life. While reading I was like: ” Don’t fall for this one, Dany! I can hear you being lonely, but this is not a guy to be trusted!” I rather like the second Show Daario, he seems clever and pleasant and not at all bad looking, but I preferred the first one, he had the rockstar magnetism, conveying the idea of danger. I think he would have been better for the character. But I guess it depends on what he’s going to do!

  713. Mmmmmm…brownies.

    As far as book-Daario, I have a tough time imagining anyone being attracted to him. That probably has something to do with the funky beard and gold tooth.

    Shy Lady Dragon: I preferred the first one, he had the rockstar magnetism, conveying the idea of danger.

    It’s always interesting to read different people’s impressions/opinions. I couldn’t stand the first Daario. Acting aside (which I didn’t like, either), just his look, for me, was…ewww. He struck me as one of those guys who thought himself far, far better looking than he actually is, and is just a pompous ass (the pompous ass being more true to the books, though, yes). I’ve met men like that, and as opposed to being attracted to them, I’ve just wanted to smack them. Again, though, his personality was much more in line with his book-personality.

    What a bad week for losing artists I’ve loved. 🙁

  714. @Nymeria Warrior Queen @Newbietothegame
    Seriously, what’s wrong with this week???
    Alan Rickman and David Bowie die – two major losses in the field of entertainment. And then, German tourists are bombed in Istanbul after a terorist attack about 20 minutes from where I work was prevented just last month. (So that means, more attacks on my home country are to come.) And the month is not even half-way through!

    @Shy Lady Dragon @Nymeria Warrior Queen
    Exactly, book Daario was not only very shady but very annoying on top of it. Not an easy character to find attractive, and I still wonder what the function of Dany falling for him is.

  715. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    I suppose D&D were also not satisfied with his acting – I’m not sure why he was changed, but I heard that he was not considered good enough. I liked his face and hair but in real life I wouldn’t have fallen for such a guy. Full of himself, indeed!
    I still can’t believe Alan Rickman is gone.

  716. dee,

    I’m glad to hear at least the attack close to your work was prevented.

    dee: I still wonder what the function of Dany falling for him is.

    I’ve wondered that many times. Sometimes I think it’s just even Queens need a li’l sumpin’ sumpin’. Then, of course, I think of

    the 3 betrayals, one for love, one for gold, and one for blood. I know some think Jorah is the one for love, but that doesn’t work for me. His reporting on Dany was so he could get pardoned. I guess it could be said he betrayed her for love of his home, but I’ve always read the betrayal for love as meaning romantic love, so I don’t think that betrayal has happened, yet. I could see Daario being the betrayal for love, but Dany’s relationship with Daario, especially in the books, seems to be to be more about sex and not love.

    So, basically, I can’t figure out if he really has some purpose, or if he’s his main function is to give Dany a lover.

  717. dee,

    I’m so glad you’re all right! The old gods and the new protect your countrymen! I have dear friends in Germany, in Ulm and Stuttgart.

  718. Henry Gordon: Some girls love the bad boys like a moth loves the flame.

    I used to be one of those girls, and still am, at least to some extent. I guess, and this is strictly my personal opinion and taste, going from Jason Momoa as Drogo to the guy who played the first Daario is a huge step down. I realize some women find the first Daario physically attractive. I’m just not one of them.

    I also think, as much of a bad boy as Drogo was, and I think he certainly was, Dany found a heart behind the badboy-ness. I don’t detect any heart in book-Daario and show-Daario 1. I only detect ego and sliminess. Show-Daario 2 may not have a heart, either, but his bravado is at least tempered by some feeling he can at least be kind of sweet from time to time, and I don’t get the same slimy feeling from him. In other words, I’m not as perplexed as to why she’d find him attractive, although making less sense why Dany would be attracted to him (ala book and show-Daario 1) certainly adds another layer.

  719. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Jason Momoa is gorgeous and Drogo a really fascinating character. But he had been gone and Dany felt lonely – or, at least, I think this is part of the reason she was attracted to Daario. There’s a graphic scene in the book when Dany feels lonely at night, needing a man. I think you get what scene I’m referring to.
    And about the bad boys, imho any girl who likes them (used to be one when I was young) deeply hopes to find a tender loving heart well hidden, but beating only for her.

  720. Shy Lady Dragon,

    I think both book & show Dany seem to understand the difference between “Mr. Right” and “Mr. Right Now.”

    I liked OG Dario’s flamboyant look, but then I also like horse-chopping OG Mountain over giant teddy-bear Mountain.

  721. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Absolutely no problem, wild queen! Anyone is entitled to have an opinion and you have always been polite.
    I like the actor, but he’s not my favourite. If I make a top of the actors I find attractive in GOT, it will be like this: 1. Pedro Pascal; 2. Jason Momoa; 3. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau; 4. Ciaran Hinds; 5. Sean Bean; 6. Joseph Mawle; 7. Ed Skrein. I know it might be considered blasphemy not mentioning Kit in top 7, but he’s too delicate for my taste. (The top has just been made on the spot. When another actor I care for dies, I’ll distract myself by continuing it.) Btw, ladies, I invite you to make and share your own top of attractive GOT men!

  722. Henry Gordon:
    Shy Lady Dragon,

    I also like horse-chopping OG Mountain over giant teddy-bear Mountain.

    Poor guy! I guess he wants so much to be considered fierce and wouldn’t be flattered at all to be compared to a teddy-bear!
    But I remember a picture where “Teddy-Bear Mountain” was laughing together with Pedro and seemed a peaceful nice guy.

  723. Shy Lady Dragon,

    I will take this up!

    1. Iain Glen
    2. Rory McCann
    3. Sean Bean
    4. Pedro Pascal
    5. Jamie Sives (Jory, RIP!)
    6. Nicolaj Coster-Waldau
    7. Jason Momoa
    8. Alexander Siddig
    9. Stephen Dillane
    10. Joseph Mawle

    🙂

  724. Shy Lady Dragon,

    What you said about Dany’s loneliness was what I was getting at with my needing a “li’l sumpin’ sumpin'” comment, but put in a far more eloquent way. Hey, at least I didn’t go with “even a Queen needs some peen.”

    As for the guys on GoT I find most attractive, off the top of my head, and being strictly shallow…only considering them in terms of which ones I’d notice on the street:

    Jason Momoa
    Nikolaj Coster-Waldau
    Michiel Huisman
    Alexander Siddig

    I’m not one who drools over Kit Harrington, either. That isn’t to say he’s not nice looking, he is, but there are plenty of nice-looking guys out there I wouldn’t necessarily notice just walking down the street.

    Oh, and thanks for saying I’ve been polite. I try, but I know I don’t always succeed. That said, some people make it really easy to be polite and make me want to be as respectful as they are.

    On that note, to all those who are participating in this…let’s get to 1,000 posts…I’ve enjoyed these exchanges more than most in recent memory, so thanks!!!

    Hey, maybe Henry Gordon will share that brownie recipe in celebration when we finally get to 1,000. 🙂

  725. Shy Lady Dragon,

    Thank you! In this global world, many things that happen in other countries are “close to home” for many of us because we have friends in many places. It’s wonderful and terrifying at the same time. I have a friend in Paris, for instance, and another in New York, and another in Boston and … you get my point.

    Henry Gordon,

    Oh, there’s something about bad boys. But the thing is, while he may be treacherous and violent (a bad boy), he is also rather annoying. I like my boys bad, but not in a self-absorbed peacock sort of way. But then, there’s no accounting for taste.

    As for the link, I suffer from this, too, so much so that the measures I take (as stated in the article, basically) only work half the time. But that’s better than never, eh? I think the major problem with George is, however, that in order to take measures you’ll have to admit to the whole problem first.

    That said, I’ve done some surfing and found some articles stating that George’s writing is not slower than other writers’ writing, their arguments supported by graphs and maths. So maybe there’s still hope for getting the whole series eventually. (Don’t talk me out of it!)

    Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    I have wondered the same thing. But my problem is this:

    If Daario was the one to betray her for love, and as there are no hints whatsoever that there is another woman (or man) in his life, he would betray her for the love of her. I thought that maybe he loved her and resented her marrying Hizdahr and decided to betray her because he couldn’t have her. He did propose to her, after all. But his interest in her never seemed to be love but rather attraction and a certain possessiveness. He thinks he is the best man for her, but if it is love, George has done a poor job of conveying it.

    BTW, who do you think are the other two? Probably Mirri for blood. Jorah for coin? I mean, he did get money, but his treason was primarily for amnesty.

  726. Okay, my favorites :
    1. Iain Glenn
    2. Iain Glenn
    And last, but not least,
    3. Iain Glenn

    LOL, sorry. He embodies everything a man should look like, IMHO.
    Jason came close, but he just does not have the lines in the face.
    No baby faces for me…

  727. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    This really IS fun. In a way like a real break conversation, where one thing leads to the next without it all having to be a discussion of one major topic.
    And I, too, hope for that receipe. You hear that, @Henry Gordon?

    Shy Lady Dragon,

    Challenge accepted. I like a manly man, but some of the more delicate blokes have a steeliness to them that is attractive, too. So here’s dee’s Top 10 Hot list:

    10. Tormund Giantsbane —– 9. Areo Hotah —– 8. Benjen Stark —– 7. Oberyn Martell —– 6. Doran Martell —– 5. Jon Snow —– 4. Jaime Lannister —– 3. Khal Drogo —– 2. Jaquen H’gar —– 1. Eddard Stark

    Honorable Mentions: Gendry, Petyr Baelish, Grenn
    Looks Only: Jorah, Daario (both)
    Books Only: Loras

    Note how they’re all characters instead of actors. It’s not just about looks, but rather about charisma for me, and I really can’t tell how hot these actors are when you meet them in the street.

  728. dee,

    Wow, how could I forget? Thanks for reminding me, I have to reconsider my top. So:
    1. Pedro Pascal;
    2. Jason Momoa;
    3. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau;
    4. Ciaran Hinds;
    5. Tom Wlaschiha;
    6. Rory McCann;
    7. Sean Bean;
    8. Joseph Mawle;
    9. Ed Skrein;
    10. Jerome Flynn – The Dornishman’s Wife can do that to a girl 😉

  729. Pigeon:
    Shy Lady Dragon,

    I will take this up!

    1. Iain Glen

    TOM F*CKING WLASCHIHA

    2. Rory McCann
    3. Sean Bean
    4. Pedro Pascal
    5. Jamie Sives (Jory, RIP!)
    6. Nicolaj Coster-Waldau
    7. Jason Momoa
    8. Alexander Siddig
    9. Stephen Dillane
    10. Joseph Mawle

    That awkward moment when you don’t proofread your own damn post to point out the obvious……

  730. If I went beyond “seeing them on the street” and went with their characters, I’d definitely have to add Oberyn and Jaqen.

    I’m not sure about Tom, but while Pedro is a nice-looking man, he isn’t one I’d notice on the street. His Oberyn, however…I’ll just say I wouldn’t turn him down.

    I’m sure many have seen this, but I thought I’d post the Jaqen song. I believe it was Rygar who first introduced me to it. Warning: It will likely get stuck in your head, but hopefully it will make you chuckle while it’s in there.

  731. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    LOL. After the first “Jaqen H’gar” I began laughing like a fool and I have been laughing while typing. Thank Rygar for this song (killing lyrics!) and I thank you even more, Queen Nym! *bows again and again*. I just hope I won’t remember about it at work, when the least needed!
    Tom is very handsome even when he looks like a contemporary guy, I’ve seen him in a German comedy where he falls in love with a pregnant girl who owns a shop – a little help with the title, dee!
    And Pedro I have seen in The Mentalist, I loved that show and the protagonist and still I was wondering how the main female character could break up with the character played by Pedro.

  732. dee,

    No good filibuster is complete without a reading of grandma’s brownie recipe into the record of the Senate. Of course you shall have it-I’ll dust off Grandma Ruth’s recipe box.

    I won’t participate or condone the objectification of the GoT beefcake! Ok, I will a little-Pedro pascal was perfect. He oozed sex from every pore, tho a good bit of that was from the source material. I, unlike Oliver, am truly not on offer, tho.

  733. Shy Lady Dragon,

    You’re welcome, and I will definitely pass on your thanks to Rygar. If you ever notice someone posting “penis,” (nothing else, just “penis”) check the SN. More likely than not, that’s Ry, and you can personally pass along your thanks.

    Henry Gordon,

    Well, with the last several posts being women drooling over this or that guy, you could always post your female drool list. It only seems fair, and I, for one, won’t give you shit for it.

  734. Btw, why aren’t there any Jaqen H’gar figures? I own the figures representing Brienne, Jaime, Tyrion and Arya, I ordered them from HBO Shop Europe. Unfortunately the Hound figure is no longer in stock, I still hope it will be available after season 6 if… you know 😉 But they don’t have all the figures, the Dark Sansa and Jorah which were Christmas giveaways have never been in the European HBO Shop offer.

  735. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Oh, this video is just awesome. Lol. Hope I wont be singing it tomorrow at work. Thanks, NWQ!

    Shy Lady Dragon,

    I think it might be “Frisch gepresst” (“Freshly Squeezed”)? I haven’t seen it, but I’ve heard of it.
    In fact, I haven’t seen much at all of his work, which is weird considering that I’m German. He’s popped up here and there in films and TV series, but I haven’t seen a single thing where he’s the lead. Hmm. Might have to remedy that.

    Henry Gordon,

    You sure about the availability thing? I get why you might not want to snuggle up to Tormund, but when it comes to Oberyn’s particular charms … 😉
    In any case, who’s on your hot list? (And what’t the female equivalent of the word “beefcake”?)

    Apropos cake: Let the 1000-comments-brownie-feast commence! Only 7 posts to go.

  736. dee,

    Yes, it’s Frisch gepresst, danke schoen! (The oe shows my trying to mark the Umlaut, I’ve been learning German for some time, I’m currently Pre-Intermediate) Because of my learning German I’m trying to watch as many German films I can, but still this was the only one with Tom I have ever seen. It was after I had seen him in GOT. Luckily HBO shows German films. It was a pleasant romantic comedy, I enjoyed it.

  737. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Henry Gordon watches every episode with the lovely Mrs. Jago, who is at least as beautiful in her 40s as the gorgeous Lena Heady. Almost all the other actresses are playing characters whose age would make my pronouncing on their beauty somewhere between creepy and felonious. With the exception of Bran & Rickon, I don’t think you ladies have the same issue.

    If we are to presume that they are all of age, (too old, right Trant?) I will admit to lingering on several. Lena Heady is, of course, hard to take your eyes off, equally her beauty & the obvious glee she takes in playing the part. Season 5 Sophie Turner is stunning in many scenes. Emilia Clarke looks her best as Dany.

    Oona Chaplin was much prettier before I realized whose granddaughter she is. Now I just see him. I get the Natalie Dormer thing, but I’ve seen too many “duck-lips” photos of her now.

    Honorable mentions in Dorne & in various brothels.

  738. Henry Gordon,

    You, ser, are the most loving and honourable husband! The old gods and new give you and your lovely wife lots of happiness and laughter!
    But you still own us a brownie recipe… or maybe more, if your wife’s talent in the kitchen matches her beauty.

  739. I just read an article about the book-retail rising from the grave (in the Netherlands). For some reason I had to think about this article. I started to read books again about five years ago when I met my girlfriend. GoT was one of the first books I read, since finishing school. With the discussion with the show always somehow centering on whether you’ve read or not read the books, I can only imagine how GrrM has gotten a lot of people reading again after seeing the show..

    #MakeIt1000

  740. First things first-preheat to 350.

    Shy Lady Dragon,

    Thanks. Henry Gordon strives everyday to deserve the wonderful Mrs. Jago. To that end (and possibly because I like to cook) I do all the cooking.

    When I dug out the recipe this afternoon, I quickly made a batch, which my kids are almost all of when I darted out for a run. Having confirmed the recipe’s delicitude, I will share it with you now. It’s Henry Gordon’s Grandma Ruth’s recipe. When my mother died, her younger brother sent me a recipe box that my mom had put together for him when he went off to college. This recipe is in my mom’s handwriting & entitled “Mom’s brownies”

    I couldn’t figure out how to post a pic of it, so I’ll sum up:
    Melt 2 squares of chocolate and 1/3 c shortening (butter’s fine)
    Stir in 1 c sugar
    1/2 tsp baking powder
    1/2 tsp salt
    1/2 tsp vanilla
    3/4 c flour
    2 eggs

    I’ll wait for you to stop licking it off the spoon/ your fingers/your significant other(s)

    Ready? Once mixed, you can add nuts, or chocolate chips or, um…non-grandma approved adulterants

    Pour in a greased 7×7 or double for a 8×13. Bake at 350 until it reaches your desired level of doneness. If you like it less cakey, half the baking powder. It not diet food, so you may as well frost ’em, too. My fav is chocolate truffle frosting. Pair a glass of red wine with it. Or a couple of glasses. Or a bottle. Best enjoyed while bingeing on GoT.

  741. Yay…we’ve passed 1,000!!!

    I don’t have my granny’s recipe memorized, Henry Gordon,but your grandma’s recipe sounds a lot like my granny’s. I have to compare the two. They may be almost identical. Thanks for passing it along!

    I always add chocolate chips and a bit of chocolate syrup, ’cause, well, is there really such a thing as too chocolatey?

  742. Shy Lady Dragon:
    dee,

    I disliked Daario in the books, maybe because I don’t like and/ or trust the flamboyant bragging type in real life. While reading I was like: ” Don’t fall for this one, Dany! I can hear you being lonely, but this is not a guy to be trusted!” I rather like the second Show Daario, he seems clever and pleasant and not at all bad looking, but I preferred the first one, he had the rockstar magnetism, conveying the idea of danger. I think he would have been better for the character. But I guess it depends on what he’s going to do!

    Skeevy and dodgy, right?! I mean, you’d have to be stupid to want to go home with a guy who strokes the nekkid sex dolls on his sword pommels while he’s talking to you, right?

  743. Shy Lady Dragon,

    1. Iwan Rheon – the actor, not the character!
    2. Tom Wlaschiha
    3. Finn Jones
    4. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau
    5. Richard Madden

    If we are talking characters, especially based on the books, I would actually go more for their personality than looks considering how bad most baddies are. In that case,
    1. Eddard Stark
    2. Jon Snow
    3. Tyrion Lannister
    4. Sam Tarly
    5. Hodor – no, not really, but I hear he has a really big …

    lexicon.
  744. Henry Gordon,

    Bury them? Burn them? Keep them hidden with the porno magazines? He might as well have masterbated in front of her at their first meeting. “Hi, so nice to meet you. You don’t mind if I have myself a bit of a wank, right now, do you?”

  745. Ginevra,

    Ha. Ho-DOR!!! Seriously-I’m starting to think quality of GoT beefcake > GoT cheesecake. Tho more female nudity.

    Ginevra:
    Henry Gordon,

    “Hi, so nice to meet you.You don’t mind if I have myself a bit of a wank, right now, do you?”

    He’s telling her he wants to stroke her, not himself. Well, maybe a bit of each. & she reaaallly wants stroking.

  746. Ginevra: I mean, you’d have to be stupid to want to go home with a guy who strokes the nekkid sex dolls on his sword pommels while he’s talking to you, right?

    I can understand, if they’re there, he’d play with them, the question for me is…

    Why does he have nekkid sex dolls on his sword pommels?

    Ginevra: “Hi, so nice to meet you. You don’t mind if I have myself a bit of a wank, right now, do you?”

    Thanks. The beverage I just from which I just took a big sip almost came out my nose from laughing!!!

    Henry Gordon: He’s telling her he wants to stroke her, not himself. Well, maybe a bit of each. & she reaaallly wants stroking.

    Nooooo…now I’m hearing Billy Squire in my head.

  747. Henry Gordon,

    Thank you so much for this precious recipe (“my precious!”). Living in a town which was, until 1918, part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, the local cookies and cakes came mainly from that cuisine. So, I have never eaten homemade brownies (nowadays you can buy brownies from different places, Starbuck’s is one of them). I rarely bake, but I love cooking, so I’ll try my hand with Henry Gordon’s grandma’s cookies to celebrate the beginning of season 6. By then I’ll figure out how to change the measurements into European ones – including Celsius degrees.

  748. Ginevra,

    I consider Iwan very attractive (I just happen to like the other 10 more, we are blessed with a show with many hot men), remember the bedroom scene with jealous Myranda. I liked him a lot in Misfits and Vicious, such a darling!
    About the characters:
    1. Tyrion Lannister;
    2. Eddard Stark;
    3. Jaime Lannister (such a sweet guy if you forget the incest and throwing Bran out of the window) – seriously, his voyage as Brienne’s captive totally changed my preception about him and the bathtub scene and saving the “maid” from the “bear” are two of my favourite;
    4. Jon Snow;
    5. Sandor Clegane;
    6. Sam Tarly;
    7. Jaqen H’gar (yes, Queen Nym, the song I have played for many times is still in my head), which I can’t consider “bad”, but implacable and with a secret agenda as the god he serves;
    6. Khal Drogo;
    7. Jorah Mormont;
    8. Oberyn Martell;
    9. Robb Stark (he inherited from his father the honour which brings him no good);
    10. Mance Rayder.
    Rhaegar must be here somewhere, I wish I saw him in GOT, even a cameo, so many hot guys have been cast.

  749. Shy Lady Dragon,

    Wow, cool. It always amazes me that there are people outside German speaking countries who want to learn German. If you ever need any help, let me know!

    Henry Gordon,

    Thank you, Henry Gordon, husband of beauties and warden of the receipe. 😉 I’m so making these when season 6 comes around.
    We could have a communal brownie baking event on April 24 – 200 batches of brownies made from the same receipe on the same day in 50 countries (or thereabouts). That’s gotta be some kind of record. 😀

    Nymeria Warrior Queen: I can understand, if they’re there, he’d play with them, the question for me is…

    Why does he have nekkid sex dolls on his sword pommels?

    42.

  750. Henry Gordon:
    Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Haha.Now you’re talkin’ bout my generation.

    I’ll refrain from quoting the Who, although I’m certainly tempted. It sounds like we’re likely of the same generation (I remember roller skating to that song as a kid). I heard “Lonely is the Night” on the radio not too long ago. That one holds up better than I thought…”The Stroke,” not so much.

    dee: 42.

    🙂 🙂 🙂

    I’ve known the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything for many years, but never knew the question. Now, I know the question is: “Why does Daario have nekkid sex dolls on his sword pommels?”

    Rygar:
    Pahnus

    I forgot you were going with an alternative spelling for “penis,” these days.

    Ladies and Gentlemen, the inimitable Rygar.

  751. Rygar,

    Nymeria Warrior Queen informed me that she knows the Jaqen H’gar song from you, so thanks for many laughters! The song was particularly useful to me yesterday, during a long boring meeting, when I needed something funny to think about.

  752. dee,

    Many thanks for your kindness!
    Studying German in not unusual in my town, Timisoara (also called Temeswar by its German and Hungarian inhabitants), known as a multicultural town. Here there is “Nikolaus Lenau” Highschool, where all the subjects are taught in German. There’s also a German Studies department at the local university (I graduated here, but I studied English). I have studied German at a local Language Center as a hobby. I felt the need to put my brain to work and I love learning foreing languages. I picked German because it’s the first language of some dear friends.

  753. Shy Lady Dragon,

    That’s quite an endeavour, especially if your first language is Hungarian, I would believe, since Hungarian is not even an Indoeuropean language. Good Luck with it.

    Looks like this thread is coming to an end, as it is now not only past 1000 comments but also gone from the front page (even the side bar) as it’s too old. But hey, we made it!!!

  754. dee,

    No, my first language is Romanian (Romance language, quite resemblant to Italian, Spanish, Portuguese), my town, Timisoara, is in Romania. I was not clear enough. Besides Romanians, in my town there are Germans and Hungarians (who call the town Temeswar), Serbians and other ethnic groups who have always gone along well. That is a reason for pride in my town. Another is given by some beautiful old buildings build by Viennese architects.
    I wish I knew Hungarian, it would have been helpful during my holidays in Hungary, but it’s such a difficult language to learn.
    I’m also glad this thread was longer than 1000. But you’re right, maybe we should begin another one.

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