To Old Friends and New Beginnings

ravenEditor’s note: From time to time, we welcome new blood into the fold here. Our newest addition to the Watchers on the Wall staff is an old friend and familiar face in the Game of Thrones online community. Please give a warm Watchers welcome to WinterPhil!  -Sue the Fury

Well, this is different. The people all look familiar, but the surroundings have changed…

For those of you who may be a bit confused, allow me to introduce myself. I’m Phil Bicking aka Winter Is Coming aka Winter aka WinterPhil. I started the website over seven years ago. I knew next to nothing about running a fan site or anything like that, but I was desperate for any news about the show (or pilot, in those days) and wanted to catalogue all of the developments somewhere. I figured there might be a few others out there like me. There wasn’t much news to report on then, so it was mostly just me speculating about everything from who would be cast as Tyrion to what the show would be titled.

The site quickly grew though and within a year I found myself going from random guy on the internet with a blog to a guy having breakfast with George R. R. Martin and meeting David Benioff, Dan Weiss, and Peter Dinklage face-to-face. We were a legit news site after that, with casting scoops and exclusive interviews, the whole bit. It was amazing and fun and exciting. But it was also a lot of work. That is why, a little over two years ago I decided to step away from running the site, for some much needed R&R.

Not only was it nice to not have to run a website any more, it was nice to be a bit more removed from the fandom. I was able to go into season five with no preconceived notions. I had purposefully avoided any set reports or other leaked spoilers and watched only the first couple trailers; the first season I had ever been able to do that. It was quite exciting not knowing everything that was going to happen. I think I appreciated season 5 a lot more than many other fans and this may have partially been the reason for that. (The other reason, of course, is I’m not a hardcore book purist.)

While I was gone, things changed at I knew I was leaving the site in good hands with Zack and Sue and Marko and Axey and Oz. Unfortunately, the higher ups didn’t seem to agree with me. Despite giving me many assurances that they didn’t want to change WiC in any way and just wanted us to continue doing what we were doing, many changes did start to creep in. Eventually those changes were so much that something had to give. That is when the Fearless Foursome broke away and established this great website. They were soon followed by many loyal readers. The exodus was so complete, that I now consider this website the spiritual successor to what I started at Winter Is Coming.

That’s why, when Sue asked me if I’d like to come and write for Watchers on the Wall, I jumped at the chance. I’ve shared my thoughts on GoT on Twitter, but the character limit is restricting both in sharing my thoughts and in getting feedback from others. So I’m thrilled to be able to do some longer editorials here and to hopefully get into some great discussions in the comments. This probably won’t be a regular thing, and will likely just be me jumping on here when I have something really compelling to write about. Either way, I’m excited about being a part of this great fan community once again.

And this is the perfect time too. Just like when we had no idea what to expect from this show in those early days of the fandom, we are entering unchartered territory in season six. With no books to guide us, this season should be full of surprises. And I can’t wait to share the experience with everyone here!


  1. May I extend a warm welcome to you, Phil. I am sure you will be a wonderful addition to WotW and our *mostly* merry crew of fan base. I am thinking that you are probably very excited about season 6, we all are and nice to know we will have you around to help enlighten us.

    I was one of those who made the exodus from WiC to here before last season and glad of it. See you around and again, a very warm welcome, indeed.

  2. Yay Phil! I missed your posts, even though the gang has been doing a superb job while you were away.
    This site is definitely the heart and soul of WiC as it once was, while the other site is just that, some other site I don’t visit anymore.

  3. I don’t comment too often but just wanna say I’m so very happy to see Phil back in the fold. The circle is complete 😀 All the best for this year guys!

  4. Welcome home… Im sure it must feel so nice to be back amongst friends. I didn’t know the history of the two separate sites (since Im sort of a newbie here). But sorry to hear of all that took place. Honestly I do visit both sites (please don’t hold it against me) but only because I like to see what everyone is thinking and saying. Im glad you shared the back story of who you are – and I hope to see your commentary on here more often then just a few times!!

  5. Hello, hello, there! You were one of the reasons I enjoyed WiC back in the days, and I sorely missed your input once you stepped down. I was not really sure what was going on, but immediately felt the changes you alluded to and started looking for a new place to satisfy my information needs about GoT.

    Welcome back!

  6. I can’t Believe there are only 20 episodes left of the show.

    I bet they will do one of those prequels. Sure, it will be good. But what is the Point of a prequel when no matter what happens there, we all know what will happen later in the events of the current show? So it doesn’t matter. Sequel is better.

  7. That’s so awesome!!! I’m one of those who followed wicnet since the pre-pilot days (then Chairgate, and those crazy packages they sent to the media before season 1, and all the rest).

    I really appreciate Winter’s seminal work in building the GoT community, and it’s so awesome you decided you had some time to join us once again! I can’t wait to hear some of your thoughts. 🙂

  8. Hey hey woahhhh woah woah there everybody. Over 20 comments on a post and nobody has said anything irrelevant and dickish yet? WELL THEN, I THINK PHIL IS A STUPID NAME; IT SHOULD BE SPELLED WITH AN F. LIKE PHIFL.

  9. I hope that this is not going to turn into a WIC-bashing session. Whatever went down a couple of years ago, both sites have their strengths and it is entirely possible to enjoy both.

    That being said, although I’m not enough of an old-timer to recall the Phil days, please count me among the many who wish to make him welcome here now!

  10. What a nice shot of goodwill and fun. It’s sad to see what WiC has become, an empty shell of it’s old self, but so thankful we have Watchers to take it’s place.

    And now the granddaddy of it all is here. Yay.

  11. Queenofthrones: I’m one of those who followed wicnet since the pre-pilot days (then Chairgate

    Chair-gate, nose-gate, Fairley-gate, Addy-gate, Eyebrows-gate, Fancyhelmets-gate.. There were all kind of gates back then, weren’t there? 😉

    Anyway, welcome back Phil.

  12. Thanks for the warm welcome, all!

    I hope that this is not going to turn into a WIC-bashing session. Whatever went down a couple of years ago, both sites have their strengths and it is entirely possible to enjoy both.

    I agree. I hope my post didn’t come off as bashing WiC. There are still good people there and some good content. It’s just different than what I started. But it is certainly possible to read and enjoy both sites. The more GoT coverage, the better, I say!

  13. Firannion,

    If you still visit WiC and you’re not enough of an old-timer to know Phil and how the corporate takeover sucked most of the fun out of an awesome fansite, good for you. I’ll never go there again. They’ve never had a single exclusive or sneak peak before WotW. Not once. Don’t get me started on the cocktails. #bitterpartyofone

  14. Whoa….

    At last, the circle is complete.

    Fansided’s remains permanently blacklisted as a news source on Game Of Thrones Wiki, after they plagiarized our content.

    Welcome to the ancient mystic society of No Homers!

  15. I remember you being the only guy worth reading.

    Not trying to open a wound or anything, but when you said “Eventually those changes were so much that something had to give”, can someone give me some exemples?
    I know that now is a cluster of nothing but cancerous buzzwords fishing for adsenses and gooofle matches with little to no content, but I wanted to know the story behind the writers leaving.

  16. Whoa, it’s like someone was raised from the dead or something.

    What is fanned can never die, but fans again, harder and stronger!

  17. Welcome! Nice to have you here. I’m still a relative newbie so wasn’t aware of the backstory between the two sites but it’s awesome how you went from being a random blogger to becoming a popular news source and going so far as to meet all those people! Looking forward to your future commentaries.

  18. Bryan Cogman,
    woh hey bryan cogman?

    JP Dayne,

    The story was posted on here fairly early on. Then there were arguments in the comments between our foursome and the people at the other site where they told some of their side. Then as other people moved here they posted their stories too. Just look back in the archives a year and a half or so.

  19. Welcome back!


    If you still visit WiC and you’re not enough of an old-timer to know Phil and how the corporate takeover sucked most of the fun out of an awesome fansite, good for you. I’ll never go there again. They’ve never had a single exclusive or sneak peak before WotW. Not once. Don’t get me started on the cocktails. #bitterpartyofone

    Well, let’s all have a nice Tyrion-tini to celebrate Phil’s return.

  20. Wohoo, Winterphil!

    Don’t remind me of the cocktails… (And that’s all WiC bashing I’m gonna do)

  21. Oh man, I just searched WIC for the original Dany casting speculation post that mentions Emily Browning (among others) and I see I did comment on that, so I’ve been lurking since 2008 at least it seems.

  22. Welcome (back)!

    As one of the people who was following wic from the very start (I remember you saying you created a site just to upload a pilot script and it kinda escalated from that).

    And remember, always support the bottom!

  23. A founding father returned – I love it. Didn’t know your story, but the fact that you had the determination and foresight to make something out of nothing is very appealing. Just promise us that if corporate America comes sniffing around you and this site, that you guys will kick them to the curb. I like it here and don’t want the good vibes ruined.

    By the old gods and the new, welcome ser, be warm and comforted and regale us with your wit and wisdom as you please.

  24. Welcome 🙂 I look forward to your posts.

    I remember seeing some of your posts at WiC… but I wasn’t there too long before you left so I didn’t see much of your work!

  25. Completely off topic, but did any one see the movie “Sisters”?
    there’s some fun GOT references that made me smile!!!!!

  26. Okay, daddy is home and the family is back together, we even picked up a lot of new members since WinterPhil left to get a pack of cigarettes. 😉

    Seriously, this news made me very happy. Welcome home WinterPhil!

  27. Good to read you again, WP. Please help guide us through this daunting and skeptical season without canon. I’m afraid…very afraid.

  28. Phil is back. Looks like Sue wants to continue to Always support the bottom!

    I don’t know, just wanted to use that line somewhere. This is great. I was on WiC too way back in the day, loved gobbling up content. It’s a different world now than then and probably not as nuts as it was then, but still an enjoyable place to see a loved story come to life and be enjoyed by millions all over the world. You started something fun, made some money (hopefully) off of something you loved, and now you get to just have some well earned fun!

  29. This makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. As one that fled here, it feels like a reunion, even though I’ve never met anyone…

  30. That’s GREAT news, this site is so much like WiC used to be in the old days and now even Winter is back 😀

  31. Welcome back to the family, WinterPhil.

    I’m in the same boat as IceSpider. I wasn’t aware of the history and connection between WotW and WiC. I go to both sites – this one more frequently, however. Definitely looking forward to reading your articles in the future!

    Take care!

  32. I am grinning from ear to ear. 🙂

    I can’t really add anything that hasn’t already been said, but this is definitely a full circle type thing, and it’s beautiful!

    Welcome, Phil…welcome back…welcome home!!!

  33. What a wonderful piece of news this is! I remember reading the post where you stated you were stepping down from WiC. I remember that hit me like a punch in the gut. I’ve never been part of any fan site community until WiC. Like you, I was crazy for more information about the possibility of GoT actually becoming a show. Unlike you, all I was willing to do was Google to find info; of which, there was very little. One day, however, my googling came across your brand new website. I lurked from then on.
    My gut feeling about you leaving the website held true and eventually (after the Four departed), that old website didn’t really hold my attention any longer. I was lucky to have found this site due to seeing a comment on WiC before it was removed.

    Thanks for coming back!

  34. So glad to see you back here Phil. Remembering the live chats you all ran during the old WiCnet GoT awards. Fun times!

  35. I began reading and enjoying WOTW last year in March, not at all familiar with its beginnings. I’m very pleased to know you, Phil, and get acquainted with the glorious history of buiding this virtual place so dear to me. Welcome home and I look forward to reading your posts!

  36. Welcome back Winter. I bet you were so depressed after I knocked you out of the fantasy football playoffs that you needed a lift. Therefore, I take credit for bringing you back. 😉

    ~Valyria Dragonsworn

  37. Deesensfan,

    Nope, I haven’t but continuing your off topic thought… The other day I was watching a few episodes of Ripper Street – the BBC TV show- along with a bunch of people. As soon as Joseph Mawle appeared on the screen I could not repress myself from saying outloud… “Benjeeeen, there you are!!!!”, amusing some of my friends.

    Apparently GoT has that power to make us suffer, wonder, smile, etc. etc. etc. :oP

    BTW, you can also watch Bronn, Barristan Selmy, Tommen, Yoren and some others in that series!

  38. Firannion: 30,

    no it’s truly not possible to enjoy both. Wic is objectively terrible. Also those guys are secretly book purists that are bashing the show.

  39. As I have said several times over the past year and a half or so since this site was founded, I had been a big fan of Oz’s unsullied, hilarious recaps on WIC. I made a point each week to look for them after every Sunday’s episode. For a few weeks he wasn’t on there, and I read the grumblings of the posters who were still there and grumblings that filtered over to other sites I had found. I finally had to google Oz and luckily found him here, where I continue to look forward to his recaps and have come to like and admire the offerings of all the others: Sue, Marko Axey Petra, all of you.

    Thank you for founding the original site WP. This is my second post on the subject, but I check in here a couple of times a day usually, when I have a break, and I couldn’t resist saying hello to you and everybody else once again.

    Can’t wait for the season to start. As restless as everyone is getting, we will probably jump on the trailer, when it’s released, like starving alley cats. See you in the alley, folks, hopefully soon.

  40. Welcome to Fucking Deadwood!

    No, wait, wrong fan site.

    Winter is…no, winter is here. Hi Winter! Great to have you (back).


  41. Firannion:
    I hope that this is not going to turn into a WIC-bashing session.

    I blew my hate wad on GURM’s TWOW update. Otherwise I’d have plenty to say.

    Welcome back, Winter.

  42. Welcome back Lord WiC!

    I too avoid spoilers about the show as much as possible, ever since I felt like I had seen the entire 1st season before it even aired. I’m looking forward to your posts, and stepping into the unknown together. Always support the bottom! (still the best hour I ever experienced on the internet)

  43. dizzy, really hoping the Eagles don’t make the mistake of resigning Bradford…

    As to the Greyjoys, well my favorite Greyjoy will be gracing the screen this season, so I will withhold my judgement until after season 6.

    hexonx, Haha, yup! That was the straw that broke the camels back. You crushed me! Congrats on the second place finish, btw. That last game was so close.

  44. Winter Phil! By the old Gods and the new, it’s good to see you. The guys here have been doing a fabulous job, and it will be wonderful to have you back in the pack.


    The UK film and television industry is interesting – they seem to cycle through the same actors! I watched An Appropriate Adult on tv with Dominic West and Emily Watson – have you seen it? It’s an incredibly chilling retelling of the Fred and Rosemary West murders. Anyhow, the very next day I saw both of them in Testament of Youth. It was a bit confusing as Dominic West played Fred so convincingly, it was hard at first to see him as a sympathetic father! But he’s an amazing actor so I got over it quickly.

  45. Welcome back! The white raven has landed…Winter is here 🙂

    I’m too much of a noob to know much about WiC, but glad for your input. I’m sure I speak for all when I say thank you for creating a community like this for us GoT crazies!

  46. hexonx:
    Welcome back Winter.I bet you were so depressed after I knocked you out of the fantasy football playoffs that you needed a lift.Therefore, I take credit for bringing you back.

    ~Valyria Dragonsworn

    The embarrassment from the last World Cup pick ’em league drove him from the internet in the first place.

  47. Really nice to read a bit of history for both WiC and WotW. I was stoked to discover WiC when I did and then this lovely gem of a website soon after. Great work and welcome back! 🙂

  48. Exciting news! I arrived just after the formation of WotW so I’m excited to read content from the famous founder Phil. And Fly Eagles Fly! The more Eagles fans the better 😉

  49. WinterPhil!! Welcome back, oh great Founder of the Realm!

    What great news! Parallels the story this season nicely…:-)

  50. Lot of people don’t seem to understand what the so-called “book purists” really are.
    You guys seems to think that book purist will complain about EVERY SINGLE CHANGE, regardless if it makes sense…
    That’s not it.

    I consider myself an hardcore book purist and I wrote pages after pages of complaints about the show, but I don’t have anything against change.
    I do have something against BAD changes.

    And I think that’s what most so-called purists are about, but you guys see them complain about so much stuff ( most of it within the reasonable, in my opinion) that you assume they complain about every single change. But they don’t.
    If they complain about 100 of the 1000 changes on the show, it’s not changes they have a problem with. It’s bad stuff.

    Xaro is alive in the books, still talks with Daenerys in book 5…
    You want to have Dany kill him before she leaves Qarth? Ok, sure, it’s not like he was all that important anyway.

    You want to show Stannis as an evil monster, horrible person, incompetent commander who doesn’t inspire any loyalty in his men?
    No… Just no.

    You want to cut Jaime trip into the riverland? (ok we’re getting it this year, but at some point we thought it was cut)? Ok… It’s sad because it was great, but ok, if you have other plans for Jaime…

    …You want to send a one-handed Jaime into Dorne, which is closest the Lannisters have to an ‘enemy’, to steal Myrcella? And Jaime’s only actual important in Dorne given that he can’T fight is… To serve as an hostage for Dorne if they catch him? But then you make him fight anyway because why not, that’s all you know to make Jaime do?

    What in the absolute goddamn hell were you thinking.

    Book purists complain about terrible changes and the only think casual fans seem to get out of it is “They complain about changes!”. That’s not it.

    It’s like if you punch someone in the face as a greeting everytime you see him and then he tries to avoid you because he doesn’t like getting punched in the face, but the message you get from this is “He doesn’t like spending time with me!”.

    See the big picture.

  51. aiad:

    Xaro is alive in the books, still talks with Daenerys in book 5…

    Sure. And the only people who give a dry fart about Ducksauce are book purists. If, as GURM would have us believe, everyone in ASOIAF is significant, then no one is. Does that make sense?

  52. Am I the only one old enough to be humming the Kotter theme song as I read all the “welcome backs?”

  53. I’ve been a lurker on WiC, and now on WotW, since season 1.

    So yeah… nice to see the band back together.

    Welcome back, Phil!

  54. aiad: See the big picture.

    Amusingly, your post is a nice example of someone who isn’t seeing the big picture. No, Xaro is not important. Oh, he might do something important: but it will be the deed, not the person, that is important. This is a critical distinction: the people who are important themselves as particular personalities are the protagonists and (sometimes) secondary characters. Incidental characters like Xaro are foils and plot devices, and nothing more than that.

    But perhaps the biggest thing for which we zing people like this is missing the biggest part of the picture: the story. Crows/Dragons told a story about killing the boy (or girl) and letting the man (or woman) be born. Season 5 told a story about killing the boy/girl and letting the man/woman be born. Where Jaime sets out to prove that he’s Tywin II as he aspired to be since he was a boy but winds up being a man with a soul is not important: the only thing that is important is the character trajectory that shows us Jaime trying to be Tywin at the outset and then being a very different (and much more empathetic) man in the end.

    But, curiously, you neglected to mention story at all….

  55. WinterPhil has been resurrected, just like Jon Snow is sure be! Nice!

    I wasn’t at WiC from the beginning, but I’ve been reading and posting or lurking since between seasons 1 and 2, so it’s great for me to have it a bit more like old times.

    Welcome back!

  56. Where’s the next cocktail installment? How much did you get selling WiC to Fansided? I’m thankful for your return as you were the lifeblood of WiC back in the day…and as someone who also likes money, no hard feelings.

    Welcome home 🙂

  57. I came to WIC just before season 1 started and was amazed by all the fellow fans of the books and show. It soon became my daily go to place on the net, and phil, you were one of the reasons. Glad to see you here, looking forward to your posts!

  58. aiad,

    I am sorry, because YOU think changes should not be made makes the changes bad? Each season has only ten episode; less (fewer) than 60 minutes long. There is only so much that can be included. I for one appreciate that I will get the end of the story before I or GRRM
    kick the bucket. Sheeesh, your reasoning is just bizarre.

  59. Lyanna_Targaryen: They’ve never had a single exclusive or sneak peak before WotW. Not once.

    I don’t much care who gets what first. From what I’ve seen, WIC is quite scrupulous about crediting WotW as a source, and I see hardly any badmouthing of WotW among the readers there, especially as compared to the reverse. WotW obviously has the best, most reliable sources for leaks and the like, but WIC has other strengths, like GoT-related humor links, which I enjoy. And some of their analysis is pretty good, like the recent series on how GoT/ASoIaF characters align with archetypes from Campbell’s Hero’s Journey.

    It’s not necessary to tear another site down to build this one up. It’s a big Internet with room for lots of sources for our fandom fixes. Phil gets that, but some of the other people posting apparently don’t.

  60. Hodor: Firannion: 30,

    no it’s truly not possible to enjoy both. Wic is objectively terrible.

    Well then, I must be capable of doing the impossible. All in a day’s work for a single Mom with a deadline-heavy full-time job.

    And how can you be “objective” about a site that you (presumably) no longer bother to read?

    If you don’t like WIC, fine, don’t go there. But don’t try to spoil the pleasure of people who do.

  61. Wimsey: But, curiously, you neglected to mention story at all….

    Well, why should he, when that wasn’t the point he was making? He was complaining about the pigeonholing of anyone who objects to a particular change or changes from the books to the show as a “purist” who will tolerate no changes whatsoever. I agree with him there. There is too much oversimplification of people’s points of view, leading to polarizing arguments here.

  62. Firannion,

    Again, this does not make sense to me. The act of complainig about the show deviating from the book makes me point fingers and call someone a purist. GoT is based on the GRRM books, not a ‘word by word by character as in book recap’. We’d be all dead by the time they’d finish.
    I sometimes think the book readers are more angry with GRRM for ‘selling out’ than the actual show.

  63. Firannion: From what I’ve seen, WIC is quite scrupulous about crediting WotW as a source

    I’m only going address this part of your post, because I don’t want this to turn into a WiC bashing fest, in part out of respect for Phil, and in part because it doesn’t really accomplish anything. No, they are not always scrupulous about crediting WotW as a source, and in some instances, the only reason they ended up crediting WotW is because one person or another spoke up and told them they needed to credit their source. Citing one’s source is Journalism 101. If it had happened once or twice, ok, maybe those were oversights. It’s been more than once or twice. So in that regard, they aren’t as scrupulous as you may think.

    Anyway, I’m going to go back to focusing on the positive, and there are lots of positives today. 🙂

  64. Indeed this is the season for resurrection. Welcome back Winter Phil, founding father!

    Now just don’t go resurrect Chip Kelly! (Now that he has been thrown out the moon door)

  65. Welcome, Phil. This seems like an auspicious re-emergence and completely on your terms. Congratulations.

    I had been lurking on WIC several months and thought you and the team were doing a masterful job, when you abruptly stepped away. What a blow. But how nice to see you resurrected, especially in time for what will probably be a season of resurrections. It will be good to receive your thoughts and insights again.

  66. Firannion: Well, why should he, when that wasn’t the point he was making?

    The big picture that we are supposed to see is the story: and that poster is missing it in both media. The “purists” people like me criticize are the ones who would ace a faux history test about Westeros stone cold, but who would fail (and fail miserably) a literature test about the book series.

  67. Wimsey: The big picture that we are supposed to see is the story:

    You’re being pedantic. There’s more than one legitimate context in which the phrase “big picture” can be appropriately used in a discussion of GoT/ASoIaF.

  68. Yay! Welcome back, Phil. It’s nice to see you around; I’ve been following (some might call it lurking) 1st at WiC somewhere between S1&2 & now here since the exodus. I hope you enjoyed your time away & are ready to dive back it. There’ll be lots to dissect & discuss.

  69. Hot diggity damn, Phil. Good to have you back.

    Everything feels perfect now. The whole gang’s together again. Nothing can stop ya.

  70. Henry Gordon:
    Am I the only one old enough to be humming the Kotter theme song as I read all the “welcome backs?”

    We tease him a lot ’cause we got him on the spot, welcome back.

  71. Welcome back, Phil! I found your original site before the pilot was even a certainty – I’ve been following all these years and it’s been a terrific ride! I was so sad when the old site went to hell. Somehow I’d missed the exodus but I found it, thank the Gods! Thanks for returning to your old brain-child-of-new 😀

  72. I stopped visiting WIC and became a lurker here some time ago and it’s nice to enjoy being on a GOT site again. I post occasionally, but even though it isn’t often I feel this is my GOT home. Great to see you back with the crew, Phil!

  73. Welcome Back! I’ve actually stepped away from this website quite a bit. Not because I don’t think it is a great website (it is!) but because I don’t want to be spoiled for Season 6. I still check in from time to time, especially after some big news comes out (award wins, big casting news, book status updates). It’s funny that before the show aired, there was so much fear that the show would not live up to expectations and the ratings would be problematic. Now, Game of Thrones is one of the most popular shows – worldwide- with major websites covering every little development.

  74. aiad,

    Stannis was a monster from the beginning. Not just because he burnt his daughter. Burning innocent people who have done him NO wrong just because thinks he is the chosen one, makes you monstrous! Killing your own brother the way he did makes you horrible!

    So that, I don’t think should be considered a “change”

    He is dead now. He got what was coming to him 😉

  75. Cumsprite: Sure. And the only people who give a dry fart about Ducksauce are book purists.

    Wimsey: … No, Xaro is not important.

    I’m confused. Isn’t that what he/she said? (see quote below -I don’t think it’s sarcasm because of what the OP said afterwards.) As far as I understood her/his post, he/she conceded that Xaro may not be all that important, but then gave other examples of changes she/he objected to.
    I do agree that Stannis was a monster from the beginning, mind you, and I can live with almost all changes the show made. In fact I love many of them. But I don’t understand criticizing someone for something he didn’t say (namely that Xaro shouldn’t have been killed at all).


    Xaro is alive in the books, still talks with Daenerys in book 5…
    You want to have Dany kill him before she leaves Qarth? Ok, sure, it’s not like he was all that important anyway.

  76. Welcome back Phil

    Weighing on Xaro: He is not important, there is absolutely no reason to care about him being cut.

  77. One thing you’ll find here is great irony. For all the dislike many of the commenters on this site have for “book purists” they seem incapable of realizing they themselves make similar hyperbolic and strawman defenses with little desire to hear opposing views for their preferred telling of this story. It is therefore ironic that each side dislikes the other, and yet each side is incapable of realizing how similar they both are in their prejudices. You will see examples of this in the inevitable responses this post by me will draw.

    I write this because I know you like the books. So…keep this in mind, if the time ever comes for a critique of something you don’t like in the show. If you know what I mean….

  78. doug,

    As a non-book reader my eyes roll in the back of my head if I read a comment with ‘in the books’….you cannot compare one medium with another.
    It’s like apples and pears, or Clydesdale and Thoroughbred.

    With WoW not being completed I am looking forward to less (fewer?) heated conversations.

    Be critical about the show based on what you saw. Not what you read.
    You would not expect a racehorse to do same work as the Clydesdale.

    I hope this made sense.
    Enough rambling on my part.

  79. Newbietothegame,

    To be honest, I think most people know very little about horses, so that analogy will go right past many people (me included). But I get what you are saying – see each as its own entity!

    That’s what I try to do. In fact, I’m kind of glad they went off on their own after the first season/couple of seasons. I love George’s story with its complexity and I love the show with its breathtaking vistas and its (mostly) marvellous actors. Both have their own kind of story, and the stories are becoming less and less similar now, which is great, because this way I get two wonderful, entertaining products instead of two versions of the same one.

    Both have their weaknesses, too, mind you – George needs to focus more on what’s important and his editor needs to grow some bigger balls and I do believe that D&D go overboard sometimes with their ideas of what constitutes good drama/comedy – but overall both are great fun and I can’t wait for the next installment of either.

  80. Alex G: What an incredible full circle! Don´t you just looove happy endings???!!!!

    Yes, actually. Does that mean we are in the wrong place?

  81. dee: No, it just means you haven’t been paying attention.

    Aw hell, I’ve been paying more attention to this stuff than I ever thought possible for me. I can remember a time, not so very long ago, when I was just too cool to be such a big vocal fan of anything like this. As I aged a little, I tossed that attitude to the winds, because I find I like this story and this particular time in my life, and being “cool” in that way was way over-rated anyhow. Gotta appreciate stuff while you can, cause you never know …

    But I won’t give up hope for some happiness for SOMEbody in this story, even if it’s just Hotpie and Gendry living quietly in the same village together. Somebody has to end up ok. The writers, book and/or show, have to show somebody making it through and having a relatively happy life after, don’t they? Can you imagine the funk the world will be in for a while if EVERYthing for all the “good guys” are shown to end cold and bleak? Yeah, I wouldn’t be too happy to see only Littlefinger left, counting his money. Somebody decent has to end up right.

    You think I’m exaggerating? I ask all you book readers to think back to when you first read the Red Wedding or first read of Jon being stabbed. I know I have read on these threads that various readers were messed up for a while. I believe that if this whole thing wraps up bleakly, there will be a lot of desolate people out there who invested way more emotion into this whole GoT thing than they thought they had. But hope springs eternal, because humans can envision and make happiness out of a situation. We are the only beings who can. We shouldn’t take that talent lightly.

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