There have been many post-mortems about Game of Thrones since the series finale aired, some by the cast members themselves. Today we bring you what I believe are two particularly strong interviews with Sophie Turner and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, in which they reflect on the end of not only an era of television but of their lives, and defend two controversial choices made by their characters, Sansa and Jaime, in this final season.
At The Wrap, Veep’s Tony Hale and Sophie Turner discuss the end of their respective HBO shows, with Turner telling us about her final scene (Sophie’s, not quite Sansa’s), which happened to be the series finale’s Dragonpit Great Council, filmed in Seville:
“It was a scene that we had been shooting for five days straight in the sun in Spain,” she reveals. “So I kept going between the feeling of, ‘God, I can’t wait for this scene to be over,’ and, ‘Please don’t ever let this end.'”
“When it came to the very final shot, [showrunners] Dave and Dan do this thing where they present each of us with the storyboard of their favorite scene of your character, and then say some lovely words about you in front of the cast and crew. I just broke down crying, and I was inconsolable for three or four hours. It was probably one of the saddest days of my life. And I don’t think I’m done with my crying yet.”
Sophie is also asked about a scene in “The Last of the Starks”, the fourth episode right after the battle against the dead, in which Sansa and Sandor reconnect. Some viewers interpreted Sansa’s words to mean that she believed Ramsey raping her had made her the woman she was now. Turner vehemently disagrees with this interpretation:
“I think that absolutely it was not so much the assault — what made her the person she is today, the politician and the manipulator, was the mentality, not the things that she went through. She made a conscious decision to stay quiet, to keep learning, to keep absorbing information from all of these people who are manipulating her or keeping her captive. It’s a wonderful thing to see a sexual assault survivor grow from that, and see her turn into this political leader she is today — but no, the rape is absolutely not a plot device to make the character seem stronger. The sexual assault made her resilient, but by no means has it made her this wonderful character that we see today. It absolutely broke her, and we saw that on screen. But seeing her thriving is so wonderful to see.”
At the official Making Game of Thrones blog, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau essentially makes the case that it couldn’t have ended any other way for Jaime, as much as we all wish that could have been the case and that he had stayed with Brienne:
“In a different world, Jaime would’ve stayed with Brienne. What he has with Brienne is something different — it’s a very pure, innocent love. There is a part of him that wishes he could not be who he is. It’s one of those things we do in Game of Thrones: you have this idea of what you want these characters to do — it’s supposed to end well for these two, they’ve been through so much together — but that’s not how it goes.”
“Gwendoline [Christie] was so moving in that scene. She did an amazing job of conveying that Brienne had finally found happiness she’s never had, and it’s just taken away from her in a brutal way. It’s very true to who these characters are. His staying in Winterfell is unrealistic. Cersei is the most important person in his life, whether he wants her to be or not. The idea that he was going to just let her die alone is too horrible for him.”
“His whole life has been about trying to protect Cersei, and trying to be close to her,” Coster-Waldau continues. “He loves her — it’s unconditional love, it’s so ingrained in him. [In season five] Bronn asks him, ‘How do you want to go?’ Jaime says: ‘In the arms of the woman I love.’ That is where he dies. That scene had so much weight.”
“The whole world is falling down around them; it’s a poetic thing. When we were done filming, it was so emotional — more so than my last scene, [which was the fight with Euron]. My hope for those final moments between Cersei and Jaime, is that even though people want her dead, it still leaves a sour taste in their mouth.”
Though many dislike that sour taste, it’s how I believe Jaime’s story had to end, if you’ll allow some editorializing. His story was always going to be a tragedy, and a tragedy doesn’t just mean we’re all sad in the end. It’s more than that. It’s more than the fact that he couldn’t have a happy ending, which most critics of his death probably agree with anyway. For it to be a proper tragedy means that Jaime’s ending had to be self-inflicted. The tragedy was always within himself, not with terrible things happening to him.
That is, I believe, something that those trying to offer alternate endings to Jaime are missing. If Jaime had died without outwardly rebuffing all that makes him good in the eyes of Brienne (and of many of us) in an effort to save his sister and lover, it would’ve been quite sad, I’ll grant you, but it wouldn’t have been a tragedy of character. Not to stir up the hornet’s nest, but the same applies to the many attempts I’ve seen at trying to engineer a way in which King’s Landing still blows up but without Dany’s agency, thus freeing her ethically from her war crimes. That’s just not the story they were telling.
Back in the interview, Nikolaj leaves us with a happy ending, for him if not for Jaime:
“I love working with Lena and we always had such an amazing experience together. l look back at what she has done on this show and it’s amazing.”
It is amazing, Nikolaj, and we’ll all miss you, and you and Lena, too!
Finally, still at Making Game of Thrones, we’re shown in more detail the two books we saw in the series finale, which made quite a splash (and resulted in many memes, too).
First, there is Maester Ebrose’s A Song of Ice and Fire, which was of course titled by Sam:
There’s also the White Book, in which the great deeds of the Kingsguard are recorded by the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard – in Jaimes case, by Ser Brienne of Tarth, in a bittersweet scene I have been envisioning for years and did not disappoint:
Sadly, these prop photos don’t include Brinne’s additions to Jaime’s entry into the book, so we’ll have to make do with what we saw on-screen, which, I remind you, was this beautiful memorial of Jaime’s entire (albeit curated) story in Game of Thrones:
Captured in the field at the Whispering Wood, set free by Lady Catelyn Stark in return for an oath to find and return her two daughters.
Lost his [hand; rest of page missing]
Took Riverrun from the Tully rebels, without loss of life.
Lured the Unsullied into attacking Casterly Rock, sacrificing his childhood home in service to a greater strategy.
Outwitted the Targaryen forces to seize Highgarden. Fought at the Battle of the Goldroad bravely, narrowly escaping death by dragonfire.
Pledged himself to the forces of men and rode north to join them at Winterfell, alone.
Faced the Army of the Dead and defended the castle against impossible odds until the defeat of the Night King. Escaped imprisonment and rode south in an attempt to save the capital from destruction.
Died protecting his Queen.
Let’s have a little cry together, shall we?
The Queen in the North!
“Took Riverrun from the Tully rebels, without loss of life”
Except for the Blackfish 😉
“Took Riverrun from the Tully rebels, without on-screen loss of life” 😆
I’m very appreciative of reading these interviews to get the actors’ perspectives.
Absolutely, no loss of life. The BlackFish escaped in my head.
I believe we will see the ending and last season become more loved as time goes on, like the Sopranos or Return of the Jedi.
People will move on from the toxicity and appreciate the entire product in time, the vast majority of it is brilliant and has changed TV forever. It’s legacy is unstoppable.
Onwards to Bloodmoon I say.
I actually said the same thing to my wife the other day. I hated the Sopranos ending when I first watched it, but I’ve grown to appreciate it over time, and I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t think any other ending would’ve worked out any better.
I don’t know if I’ll ever get there with the GoT finale, but I think I’m already moving closer to that side of the spectrum on subsequent rewatches. I’ve made my peace with Dany turning heel and I’ve made my peace with the fact that the AOTD turned out to be nothing more than a temporary distraction.
Thankfully there was no “Yub Nub” playing at the end and I didn’t have to endure Ned and Catelyn’s ghostly bodies looking on and smiling as Bran accepted the crown though 🙂
I don’t think it will be more loved, but I think it will be much easier to talk about it in the years to come, because now this toxic negativity and herd mentality just scares a lot of people off and they don’t want to engage in discussion. It’s impossible to talk anything good about D&D and GoT anymore.
I was heavily downvoted for saying that TOP 3 episodes of this show(Hardhome, TWOW and BOTB) are all show-original. So now even praising TWOW is not allowed on Reddit.
And I think new watchers of GoT won’t have problems with the last season.
Suicide by cop.
I don’t know what time will bring, but what I know will work for this ending is that it’s just true to the spirit of the story. It’s just makes sense that this will end in this way.
Future watchers will maybe think it was rushed, but it didn’t betray to core ideas and themes of the story.
I’ve accepted the show endings for each character and I’m not letting it diminish the enjoyment I got out of watching the series. I am still anxious to read George’s ending to see how close the two actually will be. Having said that I don’t think I’ll ever be entirely pleased with any individual character’s ending. Arya’s was as close to what I would have liked out of them all, but still didn’t want her to be alone. A couple of others were in the desired position, but not in the method or mood I would prefer. I didn’t need everything to be a happy, joyful ending but in my perspective it was all on the pretty sad side across the board. (I’m not counting Bronn)
The funny this is, the ending didn’t really wrap anything up except for Dany’s arc. Everyone else still has most of their life left to live, although Westeros can make short work of any life. Not sure about West of Westeros though.
If the actors and crew still wanted to do more GoT they could, though I wouldn’t blame a single one of them for wanting to move and work on other projects at this point.
Arya could have her own show that covers her travels or simply have her return to Westeros. Hell, maybe she can visit Braavos again, or maybe venture out to the far East, where she’ll encounter Dany’s corpse, who’s been brought back to life by Kinvara and she can learn how to ride a dragon 🙂
They really could keep the show going. Sansa is currently Queen in the North, Bran is King of the Six Kingdoms, Jon is basically the new King Beyond the Wall now, and Tyrion has much scheming and joking to do as Hand of the King.
Maybe in 10 years they can have a 1 season reunion show where we pick up the story 10 years after the death of Dany and see what happens. Then we could get a proper ending for the characters’ lives.
There is so much more story left to tell if they all wanted to!
I wonder if people may come to appreciate the show’s ending more if the books are never finished.
Reddit and other such places are all just people posting memes and stuff to shit on D&D/S8. I have things I’m not thrilled about, as I just mentioned above, but to spend so much energy and time just to complain is a shame. It’s not giving them any credit or thanks for providing a series that reached uncommon popularity and gave so much enjoyment. We will never see its like again.
Sometimes people don’t know what they g.o.t. ’till it’s gone.
I think if TWOW is finished that will kill this myth that GRRM will fix everything people hated about the show.
I think he still rides on goodwill from ASOS. TWOW could be reality check.
Excellent interviews! I love the ferocity with which Sophie has taken to advocating for Sansa and rebutting some of the more superficially callous interpretations of her character’s storyline and the show in general. And Nikolaj’s assessment of Jaime, in particular, I think is spot on. We’ve been so lucky to have such a thoughtful and eloquent cast who care so deeply about their characters and understand their motivations so well.
Well said, Luka! I couldn’t agree more with this!
I thought the ending was actually more on the happy side. Jon is free in the North with Tormund (I thought both had a 50/50 chance of dying going into the season), Sansa is QitN, Bran the Broken is King, Arya is alone but she survived and is doing what she wants to do, Tyrion survived and is Hand once again (I thought he had a chance of dying after betraying Dany), Sam is Grand Maester, Pod is a knight, Davos is on the small council, Brienne (even without Jaime) is LC, Bronn got even more then he bargained for, Jaime got to die in the arms of the woman he loved and got his pages filled in the White Book, after all the heinous things Cersei did she got to die with Jaime and not alone, Euron died and was actually happy dying thinking he killed Jaime lol, Drogon survived, Mountain got his comeuppance, GW and the Unsullied went to Naath (even though it was without Missandei and in those circumstances), Edmure was seen again alive and well, Yara retook the Iron Islands, Theon went out defending the Starks, Beric fulfilled his destiny defending Arya, Melisandre fulfilled her destiny, Gendry got Storm’s End.
The character endings for me hit the mark and overall were happy (imo of course).
And even though the story is over I’ve seen people still theorizing…Drogon could have taken Dany to a Red Priestess so you never know…😁
I have to wonder what the people of Naath (extreme pacifists) will think when they see thousands of soldiers storming their beaches. That should be interesting.
Jack Bauer 24,
Like I said, it’s my perspective that while characters may have finished in a position that could/would have felt like a “happy” ending in other circumstances, the manner in which they did get there and the mood of their future going forward feels more on the sadder side (to me).
I didn’t particularly like Feast or Dance that much, but I still have a little bit of hope that Martin will turn things around in Winds, though the sample chapters have been hit or miss with me.
He can’t write great book with 20 POV characters. I don’t see how that can happen. Not great in a way first 3 books were great. The tone of the story is different after ASOS. Just like it was different after S4.
As disappointed as I’ve been in the last two seasons, no way in hell would I deny D&D’s brilliant writing in earlier seasons. “The Winds of Winter” is a masterpiece, period.
And that’s why I’m here and not on Reddit. Did it once. Never again! 🤣
Winds of Winter will always be one of the finest hours of television ever filmed. So say we all.
I don not think it was sad for sansa,bran, or tyrion. They got just what they wanted. I feel the the writers treated jon snow terrible this last season. He did not even get a scene defending himself and sam davos or is family did not defend him.
I believe this as well. Maybe it’s just the eternal optimist hopefully peeking through the cynicism that I’ve armored myself with, but I’m genuinely hopeful. If time doesn’t heal all wounds, it at least scars them over. Endings are afforded such disproportionate weight in our current discourse, especially in their immediate aftermath, but eventually, they start to blend in more cohesively with the rest of the story and are rightly judged as such, rather than as the be-all and end-all of the entire endeavor.
I’m going to be far more interested in what the reception of the finale, the final season, and the show as a whole are like in a few years’ time than I am right now (Tyrion’s “ask me again in ten years” line really was quite apt). I loved both the finale and the final season and I still consider it the greatest show of all-time. Nothing about that has changed, and for me, I don’t expect it will … but who knows? I certainly don’t expect that opinion to represent the ultimate general consensus, for whatever that’s worth. But at the very least, the staggering cultural impact of this show cannot be denied, and that legacy will only grow over time as streaming takes over and the viewing populace continues to voluntarily fragment into smaller and smaller slices. We’ll never see anything like this again.
Really? That’s disheartening to hear … though not at all surprising. One of the only silver linings (if you can call it that) of this toxic backlash in certain corners of the fandom is that it’s finally inspired me to leave Reddit behind forever. I only ever lurked there, but now, I’m done with even that, and quite happily so. r/asoiaf and r/freefolk in particular, now reside in the same flaming wastebasket as certain anger-driven YouTube channels and book-centric websites that shall remain nameless (from what little I saw before I signed off, r/gameofthrones is a step above that, but still, not worth it). Once upon a time I might have felt the desire to wade into that quagmire and push back with some positivity, but now … let them rot in their own venom. Life’s too short, and my spirit already feels lighter.
“attempts I’ve seen at trying to engineer a way in which King’s Landing still blows up but without Dany’s agency, thus freeing her ethically from her war crimes. That’s just not the story they were telling”.
This is a complete misinterpretation. Nothing can free you ethically from slaughtering civilians like that. Nothing.
It wasn’t about Dany being “ethically freed” from responsibility for her actions. It was simply about her actions making sense. For us to understand why she did it, and for us to believe that she would actually do it.
Because many of us still just don’t buy it. From my perspective it remains blatant character assassination, and no, I’m not someone who defended Dany in prior seasons. I think she’s done plenty of questionable and tyrannical things. But nothing in the story made me believe she’d go so far as to systematically mow down hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children for no reason, after having won.
All I wanted was a scenario where her decision to do that was believable. No, that would not remove her agency, because again, nothing can absolve you of the ethical responsibility of committing mass murder.
In fact, the only thing that removes Dany’s agency as a character is what they did : madness. Insanity. That is actually the thing that kills her agency. She just “snapped”. And this is reinforced by her utterly delusional attitude in Episode 6. The writers used a very vague, and frankly offensive, concept of mental illness to try to justify a protagonist committing the worst atrocity in the show.
She’s just crazy, those darn Targaryen genes, what are ya gonna do ?
Sorry, but that is the most insulting way to treat a main character, the most obnoxious way to deal with the topic of mental illness, and the laziest writing imaginable.
That’s the problem. No one was looking for absolution for Dany. We were just looking for sense, logic, good storytelling, etc…
Battle of the Golden Road certainly has a nicer ring than Loot Train Battle. Thanks, Brienne!
Herd mentality? Maybe. But I speak for myself, and despite I’m quite a fanboy, I’m seriously disappointed with that season. And thankfully, it has nothing to do with my high expectations or theories in my mind.
I’m pleased with endings for majority of the characters – Jon, Arya, Sansa, Cersei and Jaimie, Tyrion (well, I’d prefer him leaving King’s Landing, and starting his own vineyard in Casterly Rock).
But, as it is a common knowledge already, the pacing, character’s decisions, logic and battle startegies – it was truly painful. I watched some reactions to those episodes and I have seen tons – like TONS – of fans disappointed/ not as excited as you could imagine and so on.
I believe there’s something about the herd mentality you mentioned, but not without the reason. There is no other way to explain what happened if not to say: the terrible script or D&D were bored with the series.
They said themselves: there is no good story, without good ending. I loved the previous seasons (excluding season 7 and 5) – but damn. It would be hard to watch the entire series somewhere in the future knowing that Jon’s heritage meant nothing; Daenerys journey meant barely anything and 2-seasons Arya’s faceless training just to open season 7 with the mask-off style and forget about it for good. To see Littlefinger – the cause of all the bad stuff that happened – being outpolayed by 2 sisters and their omnipotent brother, and Varys – Master of Whispers – dying for his open treason without doing anything apart from telling Jon, he would appreciate him on the throne. And to know that the Night King was never meant to killed by the Prince that was Promised and never had a duel with Jon. And all that Thoros/ Beric/ Melisandre build-up to eventually use it for Arya retconning the story. And at last – Bran that learned all his skills for… nothing apart from telling Jon about his parents. That will be hard.
Yes, the ending turned GOT into a very long and very expnsive shaggy dog story, in which nothing was relevant. In other words, it turned into pranking. However, there’s a good possibility that eventually some heavily invested but cheated fan will come up with a better ending of the story and that may become canon at least to some of the fans. As I have written in other threads, there have been many precedents already.
You know what? My boss is currently watching GOT for the first time….. he is almost done season 7… he started a month ago and he has been flying through it because he loves it and he cant wait to watch again… he is the first person I know who is watching season 1-8 back to back non stop… it will be VERY interesting to see what he thinks of season 8
“Herd mentality? Maybe. But I speak for myself”
Good for you, Adam! I agree with your point, completely. Just remember, in some sects as in politics, it is fashionable nowadays for members to accuse others of what they are guilty of themselves.
I have not met one fan of Game of Thrones in the flesh, who has expressed anything approaching praise for season 8. The most frequently heard comment is “I cancelled HBO that Sunday night.”
Yeah. It will be interesting.
All of those things made ending great for me. Jon’s secret isn’t something that brought him throne like it would’ve in any other story. It destroyed his life. Daenerys was destroyed by her entitlement and lust for power. Arya killed the God if Death. There was no epic fight with NK and Jon. Cersei who wanted power more than anything else died powerless, Jaime could’t escape the core of his personality, beause no one can and so on.
I like every major move S8 made. Except King Bran. I think they shoul’ve written him differently in S7 and S8. Like wise cryptic mastermins. Not someone removed from others.
Dany’s devolution made completely sense to me. Every tyrant in the world believes they are working for the betterment of humanity and anything that stands in their way must dealt with with severity. Dany was always a tyrant – an authoritarian, prone to cruelty and prone to lapses of rage that were often curbed by those providing counsel. On top of that, she was a bit of narcissist. Anyone who requires her numerous titles be read as part of her introduction is either a narcissist or a complete insecure person. Both dangerous traits for someone with power. That doesn’t mean that everything in Dany was rotten, that her nature was in fact evil. She was not evil, she simply was delusional and placed too much faith in her own person. A person who believes himself/herself to be infallible cannot see any other way but his/her own way. He/she will always be guided by his/her gut. But people who excused her most extreme behavior under the pretense that she was doing those things to evil people and therefore her tendencies were no alarming were simply blind to her character. If Jon had done what Dany did – that there would have been character assassination because it truly would have come out of nowhere, because nowhere in his journey he was shown to be capable of such thing. Dany on the other hand, well, it was there from the first season on.
And also at the end of S5 there was that scene in Daznak pit.
Daenerys Targaryen: One day your great city will return to the dirt as well.
Hizdahr zo Loraq: At your command?
Daenerys Targaryen: If need be.
Hizdahr zo Loraq: And how many people will die to make this happen?
Daenerys Targaryen: If it comes to that, they will have died for a good reason.
So even before all her tragedies in S7 and S8 she thought that sometimes there is a good reason for many innocent people to die and city to burn. Normal people don’t talk like this.
I think Jon’s heritage meaning next to nothing in the end (other than denying a relationship between Jon and Dany and alienating an already alienated character even more) is very much in the vein of GRRM. He has mentioned his affinity for subverting tropes and this a major subversion. Throughout the story, Jon is the most classic of character tropes. He is the undisputed hero, the sacrificial hero, the hidden King, the good one, that one that by all means in traditional literature should get his happy ending. The one who should be honored and bowed to, not because he was born into his role but because throughout his journey he’s earned it. A la Aragorn. Jon in fact is the most constant of characters and in the end, it means nothing because GRRM doesn’t care for tidy stories. He killed Ned for goodness sake. He told you what kind of story ASoIF was going to be by that very scene in the first book.
I would say it will be extremely difficult, but not impossible. I’m holding out hope that Winds will be on par with Game, Clash, and Storm, though I’m prepared to be disappointed. That said, even if Martin’s final books are masterpieces and he ends the series perfectly, it won’t change my opinion on the show. GOT is my favorite show with my second favorite finale.
They do not. And what is most alarming is that even nowadays, with all the history recorded and available for our consumption, we are still prone to raise people like that to places of power. How is this possible? Maybe a great amount of people simply enjoy watching the world burn.
And I haven’t spoken with anyone yet that has been nearly that negative or said anything about their HBO subscription. Apparently you and I spend time in the presence of entirely different kind of people…
Every tyrant in the world believes they are working for the betterment of humanity? Really? As an historian I haven’t heard of a single tyrant of such type. It’s much more complicated: at best, tyrants can work for their group (religious or political). However, most of them just work for themselves.
I agree completely. The Mad Queen theory has been around for a while, and there are signs in the books and show that her story would go this route, more so in the show, imo. That’s not to say I thought she went mad in the show, only that she revealed herself to be a delusional tyrant. Her narcissism couldn’t handle Westeros’s rejection.
I’m with you, and many others are as well. Alas, the conclusion is polarizing for all the wrong reasons.
I listened to good clip where they said that Jon is Frodo of this story and not Aragorn. Frodo was the only one who could carry the Ring of Power and not be corrupted by it (until the very end at least).
And that’s the point of all Jon’s titles(LC and KITN) and secret heritage. Jon was the only one that was not corrupted by power. That’s why he needs this secret heritage, that was his opportunity to take the Throne. But he didn’t want it. It was all there for him. He could’ve took it all. North, the whole Westeros.
He could’ve been worshipped like Daenerys. Man who returned from the dead, man that united wildlings and the North, who freed North from the Boltons, from WW. But he wasn’t entitled, he was’t in love with himself like Daenerys was. He never believed that he was someone special, that he has some great purpose. He didn’t believe in glory and fancy titles and all those symbols of power.
He wanted to do the right thing and then to be left alone and be free from all that shit. And at end, he was.
At this point everyone has kind of dug into their respective sides of the Daenerys debate and the talking points are just getting reiterated again and again by the same people without anyone changing their opinion in the process.
IMO, I think it’s time to just accept that people feel very differently about how a fictional story ended and move on. Both sides need to recognize this. We”ll never agree on everything and that’s perfectly fine.
Please post what he thinks when he’s finished!
Yes, I’ve seen the Frodo comparison as well. I’ve always seen him as combo of Frodo/Aragorn. But I’ve always known that he was never going to end up completely happy (in fact I thought he was going to die) though I choose to believe (until the books come out, if they ever do) that he left the NW, went beyond the Wall to settle with his people and met up with Val and ended up with a family. After all the crap he went through, he deserves that at least.
True. “They can live in my new world or they can die in their old one”. Again very alarming thing to say.
How many times people around her had to stop her from doing something horrible? She would do the same thing at the end of S6 if she had the choice. She wanted to burn RK in S7 and that still means that thousands would die.
Note that you’ve added the word “innocent”, which isn’t found in the actual quote.
What Dany is saying is, in fact, a normal and realistic statement, unless you think Abraham Lincoln was insane when he said:
Jon’s heritage may or may not have a political outcome. But it should, in the books certainly will, matter a great deal to Jon’s own character and his relationships, whereas in the show it did not. The secret of Jon’s birth was a major thread in two consecutive season finales, and in the end multiple major character arcs (Bran and Sam) in the later seasons seem to have existed almost entirely for the purpose of revealing it. To have it be so irrelevant in the final season on a character level to everybody other than Daenerys is poor storytelling.
There certainly are tyrants with an ideological motivation for tyranny that they don’t consider self-interested, though it’s not every tyrant, either; plenty have been fairly openly in it for themselves.
As far as Jaime’s arc on the show, as discussed in the OP, even accepting that the writers chose to tell a very different story with Jaime than GRRM is (which is their right, it’s their show), fundamentally I don’t buy either the premise or the execution of Jaime’s final heel turn. The series spent several seasons telling us that Jaime was different than he initially appeared, and that came across in NCW’s acting, only to insist in the course of like three scenes that, no, he wasn’t after all. There’s a reason people didn’t find that convincing. Nor does it satisfy, because what exactly did it all amount to, in retrospect? Jaime’s journey ended up being thoroughly inconsequential; he didn’t matter in the War for the Dawn (despite that scene with Bran implying that he would, which in retrospect makes little sense) and he disavowed all of the growth he had made on a dime. This is the sort of thing that will not look better when people currently critical of the show’s ending take the long view of the series, and is a problem with many aspects of the way the writers ended things, because they repeatedly call into question what the point of huge swathes of the program even was given how little they amount to in the end.
That true, but I think no one was rude here in this debate. So far at least lol.
But I agree. When it comes to Dany you just buy it or don’t . For me the reason why it makes sense is because it happened so fast. It was hit after hit. If she had time to recover from all that it wouldn’t make much sense to me.
But this was chain of tragedies happening to person who already had very cruel personality and very delusional perspective of herself.
I mean when you burn city it’s normal thing to expect that many innocent people will die. She doesn’t need to say that.
Exactly. Just think back to her final speech to Jon when they first met. All about having faith in nothing except herself. Her final words “I was born to rule the 7 Kingdoms. And I will!” were an emphatic declaration that brooked no argument.
Not going to dispute this because I agree. I am not and I will never be in the let’s bash D&D endlessly because I can sympathize with their struggle. Having said that, and having read the books, what they gave us in the end was the abbreviated version of the true story. One of the reasons why I liked the books was being able to read the characters thoughts and feelings, the show always fell short in this regard, with the exception of Theon I believe. Jon’s heritage will definitely cause major personal drama and I look forward to reading all of it.
The conversation, which begins with Dany’s truism that all things turn to dust eventually; Hizdahr then turns into into a challenge about how far she’s willing to go to end slavery, and she says she’s willing to enforce it with violence, at the cost of casualties.
Likewise, the other quote you cite about “living in my new world or dying in their old one”, the “they” in question are the slavemasters of Yunkai. One of the most dubious aspects of many defenses of Daenerys becoming Hitler (not specifically talking about you, to be clear) is how eager people are to make the despotic slavemasters into anything other than what they were, which is evil men who needed to be taken down hard.
This isn’t new, of course, as the “Daenerys is an imperialist” critiques in earlier seasons often treated the slavemasters like they were an indigenous culture being colonized, rather than the imperialist oppressors that they actually were; or treated Daenerys’ anti-slavery crusade as a fundamentally misguided venture that should never have begun because trying to change the world for the good is pointless and naive.
Yet Dany’s willingness to go to war on behalf of the slaves is offered up as a sign that she was on the road to becoming a bad guy. The show itself, in a particularly tone-deaf bit, had Tyrion use a variant of Martin Niemoller’s “first they came for the communists…” refrain in his spiel to spoonfeed to the audience how Daenerys was evil now (or all along?). Because, of course, the point Niemoller was making was that all of the groups listed were innocent victims, so using that puts the audience in the same mind (even though the show has Tyrion insist at every point that these groups were evil, the rhetorical thrust of the scene undercuts this). This is the same sort of bad dialogue-writing that brought about the Sansa controversy mentioned in this article; if the point of the scene was supposed to be what Sophie outlines, that was not a good way to say it.
That is true. It’s GRRM’s job to give us more detailed version of the story. It is his story after all. If better written ending is possible he should give us one.
I would’ve also love to see a scene between Bran and Daenerys. And Arya and Daenerys. And more scenes where Jon deals with this truth about himself And scene between Lyanna Mormont and Arya and so on. But at the end of the day, this was adaptation of GRRM’s ideas for future books. And we got exactly that.
I think those are just excuses tbh. She said that maybe Meereen will return to the dirt and yeah, that it would happen for a good reason. And that all those people could die, but it doesn’t matter because it will be for a good reason. But she is the one to decide what is good reason. And at the end of S6 she again wants to burn cities.
And that line about “new world” is about slave masters but it shows her worldview. Slavery is evil system, but does every slaver needs to die? So everyone who was part of Nazi regime was killed? And the show made a point during S4 that not all slavers were cruel and that even some former slaves were threated well and served as teachers and so on.
Were all slavers killed in USA?
And I don’t think that point of that scene with Tyrion was what you said. The point was that the fact that she fought against evil man gave her very black and white perspective of the world, where she is good and only she is the one to decide what is good and what is not.
No, they don’t need to die, which is in fact the point of that line. She offers a choice: either accept the end of slavery, or die defending it. The choice is entirely theirs, and Daenerys’ position is unquestionably correct.
There’s no such thing as a good slaver; it’s only degrees of cruelty, because slavery can only be maintained by the threat of force to make people comply.
Far fewer Nazis and slavers were brought to justice than deserved it, indeed.
The example of the USA is instructive, in fact, because Meereen is a pretty obvious allegory for the Reconstruction era in the United States. The Sons of the Harpy are the KKK, the terrorist campaign aiming to restore the old order. Dany is the federal government, aiming to enforce not just the end of slavery but civil rights for the freedmen. In actual history, the assassination of Lincoln paved the way for the calamitous policies of Andrew Johnson, who mass-pardoned the Confederates and thereby facilitated the restoration of white supremacy and the crushing of incipient equality. The failure to take much harsher measures against the slave owning class, in the form of land confiscation and prosecutions for their offenses, led to an historic failure to deliver justice the consequences of which lead directly to the horrible racial injustice that still bedevils the United States today.
Daenerys’ initial mistake in Meereen, likewise, is in allowing the slaver class to keep all their wealth and power other than liberating the slaves. That sets the stage for everything that goes awry in ADWD. When she returns, she won’t make that mistake again.
As I said, if that was the point, it was not written well, and the use of the Niemoller formulation especially demonstrates a real lack of understanding.
Wasn’t that the blackfish own choice for not wanting to become a prisoner. But I can see that the blackfish didn’t want to be taken prisoner 😉
Sopranos ending was brilliant. I watched it years later so after I watched it, I looked online if a scene was missing and I saw an interview with one working on the show or statement of a fan why it was ending in that way. And I was like: hmm I think I like that theme a lot, it fits with the show.
But before she said that line she wanted to kill them all. She didn’t because Jorah convinced her not to do that, because even he was slaver once. How many times people around her had to stop her from doing something horrible?
I don’t want to discuss real history that much, becuse real life is always far more complicated and nuanced than any story. The point is that slavery is evil system, but this idea that everyone who was part of evil system has to die is very problematic IMO. Because even in real world those things never happened. And the show did give us some nuance when it came to former slavers and slaves. In fact there was former slave who said that he felt more secure in former system.
I think that scene with Tyrion and Jon was written really well. It contextualised Dany’s entire life and the way her past experience shaped her worldview.
I don’t want to talk about TWOW and what Daenerys will do when she returns to Meereen that much either, because it brings me only frustration. If TWOW is ever finished I would gladly be part of those discussions. But now it feels pointless.
I really don’t know how GRRM will bring this story to the endgame we saw in the show, and I’m not sure he knows either. I stand by what i said. If better ending is possible he shoud give us one. For now, this is it.
I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said, but I have to play devil’s advocate on this one. Germany was punished harshly and humiliated after WWI and that punishment was what led directly to the rise of Hitler, so it’s not always a good idea to punish harshly.
Also, Lincoln was in favor of leniency for the South. What failed was the lack of enforcement when it came to reconstruction, which, sadly, Lincoln was not around to oversee. It’s one thing to pass a law, but an entirely different thing to enforce it. And to be fair, racism isn’t limited to the South.
I think those who give it a 1 now will think it’s a 5 or 6 in the future. But will not change that rating on imdb.
As for reddit, is that true, saying those episode are great is forbidden there?
I think it’s happy for the characters, but sad for us because we all want that “happy family ending”, but that ending would be 1 sad or 2 not true to the characters.
Many shows ends with the family together or start of a new family because that’s what people long to, a happy ending for themselves involving friends and family.
Yeah, sadly it’s true. And it wasn’t even said on some GoT subs.
As long as characters are alive there’s always more story to tell. Just like real life. I mean the lotr ended but it was also a beginning. Frodo and Bilbo’s next journey. Sam with his family. Same with here. It’s an ending but still a new beginning.
And this show and books didn’t show the whole story of every character from birth to death. They showed the part of “a song of ice and fire”
You g.o.t. to be kidding me?
My husband is a history professor (colonialism through the Civil War) and direct descendant of Confederate slaveowners—Gen. Braxton Bragg, for whom both Fort Bragg, NC and Fort Bragg, CA were named before he became a Confederate general, was his mother’s great-uncle. We’ve had many in-depth conversations about slavery, the different ways it was practiced and ended in the colonies, and its long-lived ramifications throughout the Western Hemisphere. I’m sure he’d love to have a drink and talk history with you!!!
I hope HBO will be successful enough in the future not to make any desperate move like reunion show would be. IMO.
Let it rest. It’s done.
She had already shown the slavers mercy and they turned around the restarted slavery once she was gone, so she quite rationally decided that mercy would only be exploited.
Jorah then counselled her to show mercy for a second time, which she did…and then the masters did the same thing again, reestablished slavery, and waged war on Meereen, killing numerous freedmen and Dany’s soldiers in the process.
And then she was counselled to show mercy again, which she did, and subsequently people on the internet (including here) were arguing that with Dany gone the masters would try to reestablish slavery in Slaver’s Bay (though the show gives no indication of this).
So why was Dany wrong in that conversation? Jorah’s advice in that scene was proven entirely false, and almost cost the people of Slaver’s Bay their freedom (and did indeed cost many their lives).
Dany offered the chance to abandon the system without death, while making clear that those who chose to enforce evil would be dealt with as they deserved.
I’m unclear what you mean by “even in the real world those things never happened”. Indeed, as I noted, slavers seldom received justice in history, but that’s not a good thing. The United States would be a better place today if the slavemasters of the Confederacy had not been allowed to escape justice for the untold suffering they inflicted.
I hope so too. I’ve been one of the more vocal posters about not wanting any prequels, sequels, postquels, remakes, or reboots in the first place.
Don’t let the Lord of Light bring G.O.T. back to life. Every time it comes back it’ll be a little bit less. Pieces get chipped away.
I was just saying they COULD bring it back because there’s still so much more of the main characters’ stories to be told, not that they should.
Greyworm getting on land: Please do not resist, we’ve come to rescue you!
Naath native screaming
Greyworm stabs him: As I said, please do not resist, we come in peace!
Dany in the sky as a Yoda figure *That’s my boy, I though you well*
Those explanation was given the first part of the episode and the end parts of episode 4. Her scenes with Tyrion and Jon made it all clear, it wasn’t a snap, it was calculated decision, she just waited if the citizens of KL chose her or still cersei. If her, go civil on them, if they chose Cersei, as she stated at the beginning of episode 5, they are not innocent, but in fact collaborating with Cersei. She even stated that those 10.000 are not innocent because they hide behind Cersei’s skirt. She even stated the people of Mereen chose their freedom by turning against the masters, did the people of KL turn against their masters? Or beg their masters to save them from Dany?
It’s exactly the other way, everything was relevant. If even one of their stories didn’t happen. The first step to democracy wouldn’t have been set.
going backwards: Democracy < Dany death < Dany turning mad < Missandei death etc < Betrayals < Jon getting praised for the win of the long night < The long night < which would be not possible if Dany, Jon, Arya, Sansa, Bran, Theon, Missandei etc weren't there they all had their part to play if one would not have shown up, it would have been endgame there < Telling jon the truth < All the journey's that lead to that moment.
It all was important for going to democracy, going away from monarchy. That's what this show is about. And if even one big journey of our main characters (or even many side characters) would have been omitted democracy-Lite wouldn't have landed on Westeros
The point is not that she was wrong in her war against slavers. The point is that that shaped her worldview and gave her black and white perspective and sense of greater purpose and that was the reason for her downfall in Westeros.
I don’t think that majority of things she did in Essos were wrong. But ideas to burn Yunkai, Astapor and Meereen were wrong and that showed that she is capable to do something so horrible if she believes that her reasons are good.
And the only reason why she never killed so many innocent people is because Tyrion stopped her. There was no one to stop her in S8.
Tell us once he’s done.
My sister just finished bingewatching whole of season 8. She watch all her shows like that. Her view was, it was all great and perfect. Except the last 30 minutes of the season. It made sense and was logical how everyone ended and it come to that, but it felt anti-climatic. I think it is that the last 30 minutes was more, this is needed for the clue of the show and was not excited like what came before
And like all tyrants, the followers never believe they were evil and always acted for their benefit.
Sounds like every hero out there, doesn’t it? (end of sarcasm)
I think you’re right about that.
Please stop right there, you’re beginning to make sense.
Sorry I’m very sarcastic at the moment 😛
You see, all these things could have been at least twice as impactful as they actually were, if the writing was proper.
Nothing against Jaimie dying in the arms of his love – but all the romance with Brienne was pointless. It was such a glorious moment of him making Brienne a knight. It was a token of their affection to each other. Not a sex scene. It was beautiful and meaningful at the same time for both of them. But instead of focusing on Jaimie’s internal conflict and need to return to Cersei, they decide to go for fanservice and provide a sex scene with Brienne. Shame.
Jon served as a plot device, to move Daenerys character into one direction. No other purpose he had. They have been building his identity for 2 season. But it didn’t really struck him at all. He had no difficult time digesting it and facing the truth. In season 6 it’s like: oh… my… Lord. He’s Lyanna’s son after all. In season 7: “Christ. He’s never been a bastard. He’s the heir to the Iron Throne” – that’s going to mess the shit up. And in the season 8 he’s like – well. Okay. But she’s my queen and I don’t want it. He turns from “I’m too proud to bend the knee to save my people” to “I’m too loyal to see Daenerys downfall” in a matter of one season. It ruins he’s arc. I know, I know. Love is the death of duty. But their love was a bullshit. Their affection had no time to flourish properly, so we could see them love each other.
Arya killing the Night King. From all the fan services they provided – I would go simply with one. Azor Ahai. Nothing else. That was necessary to make these 3 characters (Jon, the Night King and Daenerys) relevant to their connections. I know, I know. Prophecies are just prohecies. So what? Build it for years and retcon it so Arya kills the Night King just because – well, she had to do something cool, since she trained for so long. That’s ridiculous for me. Nothing else I can say there, apart from this: imagine how meaningful Bran would become this season, if he had a vision of Azor Ahai creating Lightbringer. Just sayin…
I have nothing against Jon going beyond the Wall… I actually loved it. But not this way. He shouldn’t have been exiled. He should have decided to leave his legacy behind and freely go to live a peaceful life with wildlings – where he belongs – in the True North.
Bran. So, maybe if they started the season with his vision of Bloodraven talking to the Mad King about burning them all. And that would make his plot of season 6 relevant – that he tried to lead him in the right direction, which is” not to meddle with time, because “the ink IS dry”; everything has it’s cause and is determined and you can’t change it. But you can actually be the cause of things. And that’s what Bloodraven would do. Be a cause of bad things. That would be satisfying both for Bloodraven identity and Bran’s training. Maybe some dragon-warging? I don’t know. So many possibilites and they chose him for a king – quite lame.
Imagine how this season could have been GREAT if they gave it a time to breathe. All these relations to mature. To properly show Dany’s downfall; Jon’s identity struggle; Bran and Night King’s connection. If only these series had 9-10 seasons. If only…
I hope Kit is okay 🙁
Damn why am I having tears while reading this 🙁
“My hope for those final moments between Cersei and Jaime, is that even though people want her dead, it still leaves a sour taste in their mouth.”
What does this mean?
Yea, I saw that too. It bummed me out. Fame can give you the keys to the good life, but there’s a dark side to it too. It’s not all fun. Especially when you’re as famous and recognizable as Kit is now. He probably can’t go anywhere without being mobbed. It has to take its toll at some point in one form or another.
I think he means that for some people, at the beginning of the episode, they hated Cersei and felt sorry for Danerys, but by the end, it was the other way around.
I don’t think that romance with Brienne was pointless. It was oportunity for better life that Jaime never got. We saw Jaimie’s internal conflict in E4.
I don’t think that Jon served as a plot device. PTWP and The Chosen One trope never belong with the tone of this story. This is not Star Wars or Harry Potter. Azor Ahai, Lightbringer, magical horns,… just lazy fantasy tropes. IMO. I don’t think they will mean anything in the books either.
The Chosen One with his magical sword killing Dark Lord and becoming King is not GoT at all. For me, at least.
Bloodraven being the reason why Mad KIng was Mad was one of the worst GoT theories for me.
Don’t want to sound rude or anything similar, I’m sorry that you were’t able to enjoy the show, but I would hate if anything you said happened. It’s just another conventional fantasy story.
But again, I respect every opinion and I don’t think there is wrong opinion. I don’t think you are wrong or stupid for disliking the show.
I agree that this season would’ve been better if they gave it time to breathe, but I think that’s the case for many GoT seasons. I made my peace with that long time ago. I feel there are many missed opportunities for character interactions for seasons now, but I felt the same with Harry Potter movies. Adaptation is always simplified version of the books.
I would love if we got more time for Harry to deal with death of Sirius Black for example in the movies. Or many other things. But the plot just went on.
But the big difference is that we had more detailed version of the story in the books if we wanted that. The fact that GRRM never finished his books leaves us with with simplified version only. But that’s not D&D’s fault.ž
GoT was adaptation turned into original show that is adaptation of GRRM’s ideas for future books. That should’ve never happened in the first place. That nevver happened with any big adaptation.
I disapproved them both for a long time. Deanerys was always overpowered, dangerous and volatile. At the end, I hated Cersei. But was fairly sorry for poor Daenerys because up to Epi 5, I did not know she was crazy. They could have given her a maniac episode in an earlier season to tip off the slow-witted (like myself) that she was potentially genocidal.
Does he really think anyone was sorry for Cersei? Was that what the writer and actors were trying to make us feel? Hahahhahhaa!
I was thinking she deserved a worse death than that.
Let’s get one thing clear. HBO are not going to remake season 8. It’s finished. Finito. You either like it or not. That’s your prerogative. Your precedent was a one off a very long time ago in the Soviet Union. HBO isn’t the Soviet Union. Season 8 was a very expensive season to make and many of the actors would most likely refuse to take part. Some of them have already spoken out against that bloody petition calling it, rightly, an insult to the actors and crew. And if you think some hypothetical future fan-made version would be accepted without the actors and the production values of the main show, then you are seriously deluded.
GRRM loves to subvert tropes, so if you believe ASOIAF is going to end with Dany and Jon ruling together on the Iron Throne, then you’re going to be sorely disappointed. Sorry.
I felt a twinge of sympathy for her, only because of how helpless she was in the end. This isn’t the first time I felt sorry for an antagonist who died like this.
I felt sorry for her. Somehow. I felt sorry for her not being able to protect her unborn child. I think that’s something horrible a mother can go through. So yeah for me they succeeded. I cried for her, and for Jaime. I even cried for dany in the final. Who was in the end even more evil then cersei. (as tyrion stated cersei and tywin horrors together they didn’t even come close what dany did in episode 5 not even close)
As for cersei. I’m wondering if we saw the real cersei at the end. A cersei stripped from power. How cercei would have been without it. Vulnerable.
Same with dany, without power she would have become a different person. A better person.
The only difference is. Cersei did all for herself. Dany tried to make the world better (her version of better not really better at the end), but at the end of the day a selfish person is much easier to handle. They will always choose their own life over power so it’s easier to stop them. But killing somebody with a idea of how the world should work, much more a problem. Because they gladly die and take others with them to envision that world.
As tyrion stated, if something stood between you and paradise, wouldn’t you kill for it.
I cannot say how much I hate Brienne writing that crap. She should have closed the door and carefully torn Jaime’s page out of the White Book.
Jaime treated her like trash. She needed to show some self-esteem. That pathetic scene of her writing dreamy notes about a man that dumped her like hot garbage was not poetic. It was just dumb. Women are sometimes their own enemies.
Then there she was one the stupidest, rejected woman in the kingdom – sitting on the Small Council.
A lot of people did feel sorry, and some of them hated D&D for making them feel that way lol.
Wow. You cry a lot.
At the beginning of GOT, Cersei was very vulnerable and then seemed to get more and more hardened. Just an episode before she sent an assassin to kill her brothers. I am not sure why I would feel anything for her. I did not.
She was typical underdog during S6.
I didn’t say everyone.
Did you even watch the Last Watch documentary ? Everyone was burned off of this, there is no way they could have gone one more season let alone 2, you’re living in fantasy island !
That’s because brienne learned something, that you should feel anger in a moment like this and try to find understanding in someone’s action instead of destroying yourself with hate.
She write that pages because she 1. Can let go after that. And 2. You should not undo someone’s good work because you were hurt.
What brienne did is psychological more healthy then her ripped out those pages what you suggested.
I know that. I was just saying where I stood.
She was only the underdog for the epi 5. Was she not killing Missandei in Epi 4?
Dumb move – keeping Missandei hostage in Red Keep may have made Deanerys hesitate about burning the RK. At least when she was sane.
Yeah, it’s very hard to say how the ending will be perceived in 1.. 2.. 10 years from now. I do think it will remain divisive to an extent, though the heatedness of the debate will surely subside. However, in time I hope that GoT will be lauded for taking the risk with this ending, and staying true to GRRM’s vision.
First of all your personal opinion is not the definitive fact, let’s get that clear, and second of all i’m interested in what those examples are where someone’s fanfiction is considered “canon”, some people believe the earth is flat for example, should we all pretend the earth is flat to please those people ? See this is the difference between fact and opinion, the show ending is canon for the show no matter how much you dislike it, and someone’s vision is just their personal fanfiction, maybe you should learn the difference so you can become a better informed person .
I did not say she should destroy herself with hate. Nor even be angry. She needed to reclaim herself and her affections and move on. Sometimes it helps to move on when you even the score a bit. Unfortunately, she continued to hold in high esteem someone that treated her shabbily – not a healthy thing.
Maybe cry is not the right word. But I’m not ashamed to say that I can show tears when a scene is moving. Nothing wrong with that. Will I lie awake if something emotional happened on screen. No, it’s just a tv show. But in the moment. Nothing to feel ashamed if somebody shed a tear or 2 and let themselves feel some emotion.
And for episode 1 of the show. No cersei was not vulnerable. She showed a lot power back then as the queen.
And as for her sending somebody after her brothers. She could kill her brothers when not confronting with them. When they are before her. She couldn’t do it. Because she feel for them. That’s why she didn’t want them to be send to her alive like she did with for instance ellaria. Because she wouldn’t be able to kill her brothers then.
It’s something much deeper then many see with her. It’s more like she tries to elleminate her own Power weakness. The ones she loved in a strange way.
Brienne is very healthy. Being hurt does not make her unhealthy.
She is the Commander of the Kingsguard and she is doing her professional duty, one of which is to record the acts of each member of the Kingsguard. To not fulfill her professional role would be immature and petty and emotional .
I think you have some projecting issues there buddy, going from Brienne having to hate Jaime to going on a rant about abandoned women and how they are supposed to feel is not a good sign in my view !
It’s because she saw the good in him, and knew Jaime couldn’t see the good within himself and couldn’t forgive himself for the terrible things he’s done.
Did you say “updog”?
As somebody who has undergo mental treatment because I couldn’t let go of the past (including letting go of my ex). What Brienne did will be seen as a method to cope with lost. And a healthy one. By writing him in a positive way, she can put him in her mind as a good person. And put Jaime to rest. Instead of reminding him as the bad person leaving her for his ex.
She did the right thing. Now she can shed the tears for Jaime. And she can move one. Which she clearly did if you watched her last scene at the counsil chamber.
She paid some-one to kill her brothers that is sufficient. She was horrific.
I think in the earlier seasons she was more vulnerable.
Yes, those are Jaime’s burdens. She is not his Mum.
We don’t know if she really paid to have them killed or that was Qyburn lying to have them removed, she didn’t seem surprised or even angry when she saw Tyrion alive in episode 4 and moreso she didn’t even had him killed by the archers even though she could have easily done so if she really wanted him dead, i mean she already was planning to kill Missandei knowing the consequences, what’s one more advisor in Dany’s camp ?
Agree she was more vulnerable there. But not in episode 5 of this season.
As for her hit on her brother’s. I did not say it was normal. It shows how far she went into her delusion. But I think how she not killing tyrion in episode 4 and of course the way she reacts to Jaime in 5 made it clear what her motives were. It was not a hit on her brothers for their treason. It was a hit on her brothers to free herself of that weakness in her own emotion she had for her brothers.
It’s like a killer ask you to turn your back to him because he couldn’t kill you if you look at him.
I think the majority of the things she wrote were performed after Jaime left the KG. Were they even to be included in his KG list?
Did she update Selmy’s list as well, given he did a few things after his KG days as well?
She never met Selmy or personally knew him so your example is awful !
Well Tyrion did say Sansa and Arya fought for him, but it would be another series of wars.
Bran and Tyrion just out manipulated GW and Yara.
Once Jon is past the Neck, the laws or rule no longer apply.
The North has it’s own rules, Sansa’s Queen, Jon is free from ruling, fighting etc. Bran put him where he truly wanted to be and his sister will not allow any harm come upon him.
I was talking about S6 not S8. In S6 Cersei was the underdog almost the entire time.
Actually i would say season 7, Dany had three dragons a that point, plus her full army of Unsullied and Dothraki and if it wasn’t for Euron and Randyl Tarly, both Dorne and the Reach .
I’m not sure. If only the season was longer they could have added that too. Maybe that will be in the sequel…
As someone who was involved in a toxic relationship some years ago, I can tell you from experience that there were many times I was driving south thinking to myself “Why am I going back there?”, and many nights I found myself staring at the ceiling wondering “What the f*ck am I doing back here?”
Sometimes your better angels are overwhelmed by the devil that’s burrowed into your psyche.
And if it were Lena Headey, I’d have zero free will to break away for good.
There is not going to be any sequel, just stop with this crap !
I was being facetious. I’m ok with S8 and waiting for details when the books come out. I refuse to believe they won’t be finished…..
Brienne was sympathetic to his friends and forgave him for his transgressions. That’s not a bad thing.
I agree with you 100%.
To be clear, I don’t mind where the characters ended up, but how they get there is problematic on many levels. Dany being a great example. Jaime. Jon, Bran, Tyrion…ugh. (I actually think Arya and Sansa were ok).
But poor Cercei, one of the greatest actresses in the world relegated to her wine, her window, and Euron’s blathering.
D&D didn’t develop the narrative’s connective tissue, and the end result suffered for it. Time isn’t going to change my mind about that. It’ll just dull the pain.
The Snitch in the North! :-}
There are many flaws in Season 8, no doubt. Some due to fan service, others due to expected events not happening or not the way we expected. I do think Jon and Dany;s heritage and background are VERY important, but not the way we expected. They united the forces to defeat the Night King and AotD. Jon speciality has been campaigning, warning, organising The Great War. Jon acquired the needed weapons and needed dragons and led the battle both on dragonback and on the ground. He needed to be a Targ for that. Dany had to be a Targ, probably because she was meant to purge Westeros rather than rule it. Apparently it was never Jon’s fate to be king. He said he didn’t want it almost as much as Arya has said she didn’t want to be a Lady.
We all tend to forget the overarching predestination in this tale. Bran told Theon and Jon that where they were and what they did was as it was supposed to be. He wasn’t surprised Arya killed the NK, surely for the same reason. No doubt that’s why her gave her the Magic Dagger (probably the only weapon that could kill him–maybe it is Lightbringer). Melisandre finally updated her prophecy app and realised the same thing. Bran sees the future, albeit through a glass darkly. He was surprised and relieved when Arya spontaneously headed home instead of to KL. So there is some free will, but not much. Perhaps the blue eye of the giant Macomber (aka GRRM) saw that Westeros was a primitive, corrupt, warmongering society that needed to be fixed and modernised. And that it was fore-ordained that the country would be cleansed and that the last 3ER–a philosopher god–would be king and rule with a proto-democratic council. Dany and her flying WMDs had no place in this brave new world. But the others who helped bring it about, Tyrion and the other three Starks, whether by beneficial or malificent methods, had been instrumental, and were rewarded. They are the future. A semi-Stark will probably become King Beyond the Wall (the Nights Watch sentence was surely a ruse to lull Grey Worm), a STark queen will rule the North, and another Stark will find new lands and hopefully mold a future of justice and peace for them. (Everyone forgets that Arya identified with Queen Nymeria, who sailed West TO Westeros and founded a dynasty. I hope she’ll name her new land Sandoria.)
Two quick asides–IMO George modeled Westeros on WWII Europe, encapsulated in Great Britain. The Allies defeated the big bad Axis with the help of WMDs in Japan. But the Allies fell apart afterwards and started hurting each other. Perhaps the fact that the new rulers are imbued with the principles of Ned Stark–even Sansa despite her ruthlessness–will help heal the world. The other is that I believe that if Sansa does not change, she won’t be in power long. In her heart, style, and interests, she is a Tully. The Northmen are not just “wind vanes”, but straightforward, no-nonsense, loyal, and judgmental people. She is not military, and her military aides are gone. A few days ago Inga made an interesting prediction: “In any case, there’s zero chance that Sansa’s reign could last longer than several years.” I suspect Bran fully expects this. We will never know that or what really happens to the Starklings, but it’s is an interesting possibility. After all, Sansa is Cersei 2.0, and Cersei’s joys did turn to ashes in her mouth.
Pity Brienne’s entry wasn’t in the book!
Jaime’s “I’m a hateful man” speech had a positive effect for me – I was much less gutted when he died. 😊 Love Nikolaj.
I think they gave it to us; crazy, nuts, insane are all very subjective words.
Season 1 alone we see 3-4 episodes she does things no rationale person would do.
She slowly gains a following, people she freed, gains herself an army of slaved soldiers, she gets rid of the masters, upsetting the whole system, but now the freed slaves have no way of living many want to go back to the masters, she shown no rebuilding skills, etc.
This continues into Westeros where the people are pushing back , they have the past 25 years still fresh in their history especially the Starks and the North as they were truly affected by Danny’s family. She does for the longest time try and do the correct thing; but it’s of no avail because she has dragons and she uses them as not just weapons, but to put fear into the people, her primary goal was to get food at the FoF2, but instead she burns it so Cersei can’t have it, just think how she be able to get the small folk on her side if she had that food to dole out.
Instead what people will hear and believe is how she burned to death 1000’s of soldiers, destroyed homes villages etc. even if she didn’t.
She goes North, with fair intentions, but also a big expectation, and didn’t like the way the town’s people look at her, so she plays a power move, all she did was increase fear in the people she hopes to rule, she’s given a cool reception by Sansa, and promptly learns one of her dragons is now a waight, slowly things get worst, Jon learns his heritage, she and Sansa spar, she lost that match, she gave Sansa all the info she needed to know, she’s not the ruler for anyone.
She hints at threats to Jon on Sansa, Jon tells her his heritage it’s another hit on what she was led to believe , they win the war, but in front of her Jorah dies her truly most trusted adviser, she lost 1/2 of her army, they party, and she’s slowly shown being more isolated and paranoid as people gravitate to Jon and Varys sees it, like we do.
She then makes another mistake refuses Sansa’s wise opinion to let the troops and her dragons rest and heal, so if she and Jon listened would she still loose Missandei, or Rhaegal ? We won’t know, but it sure as hell should have had her second guessing herself.
She begs Jon to continue living a lie, he can’t do that, Bran tells, Sansa has a choice, say nothing and allow someone she feels isn’t good to rule or offer another choice a better one; someone who doesn’t inspire fear but togetherness the ability to bring people together and he’s the rightful heir.
We get to KL and she had all that travel time to internally stew and she lost Rhaegal, Missandei is butchered and Jon can not give her what she ask of him.
Varys betrays her ( in her mind ) Tyrion betrays Varys ( nice going guy ) and it was almost over and it was once she saw the red keep and she just went full rage and didn’t think about anything else but the RK and Cersei and her legacy slipping away.
Danny didn’t go into any of those subjective words in minutes or days, it was months and years.
The aftermath shows no remorse, she’s already backing away from her promise to the unsullies, and adding future conquest to her list, GW did not looked thrilled, and Jon put an end to it ; he chose duty and his Stark family over hers.
“All good things must come to an end”, said Q to Captain Picard in the series finale of Star Trek: The Next Generation 25 years ago.
And yet… the series “Star Trek: Picard” is set to begin airing at the end of this year.
Never say never.
I will not be surprised if five years from now I’m in front of my TV watching the opening scene of a sequel with Captain Arya on the bridge of the StarkShip Nymeria.
“To boldly go where No One has gone before.” 👸🏻
It is not “crap.” It is simple economics. Call it a cash cow or a golden goose: Who would dare lose out on big bucks by refusing to green light a prospective Arya sequel in a few years?
Madison’s a nice restful town.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
“The Snitch in the North! :-}”
Tell me about it. Although I give Sansa credit for remaining steadfast in her insistence on Northern independence, her breaches of trust (plural) are inexcusable.
Twice now she threw Jon under the bus – first by concealment, and then by swearing to maintain a confidence and breaking that promise almost immediately -to pursue her personal agenda.
That’s the first thing that came to mind during my rewatches of Jon’s farewell to Sansa, Arya and Bran. (Details to follow.)
All hail the Snitch in the North!
I’m sorry to hear that. Glad to hear that you’re in a better place now!
That pretty much describes Jaime and Cersei to a T. One of the many things that makes their characters and their story so tragic, but also so dramatically compelling.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
(Continued from above)
I had written this after rewatching Jon’s farewell to Sansa, Arya and Bran in S8e6 (link to scene below) after another commenter rightfully called me out for missing Arya’s tearful goodbye.
I had varying reactions to each of the sibling’s parting words with Jon. (I highlighted in bold Sansa’s words that grated on me.)
Sansa: “I wish there had been another way. Can you forgive me?
Jon: (long silence, then): “The North is free thanks to you.”
Sansa: “But they lost (miss?) their king.”
Jon: “Ned Stark’s daughter will speak for them. She’s the best they could ask for.”
Jon (to Arya): “You can come see me, you know. At Castle Black.
Arya: “I can’t.” [?]
Jon: “You think anyone will dare tell you you’re not allowed?
Arya: “I’m not going back north.”
Sansa: “Where are you going?”
Arya (to Jon): “What’s west of Westeros?”
Jon: “I don’t know.”
Arya: “No one knows. That’s where the maps stop. That’s where I’m going.”
Jon: “You have your Needle?”
Arya: “Right here.”
(Jon wipes tear from Arya’s cheek; holds her head on his shoulder)
(Jon bows before Bran)
Jon: “Your Grace. I’m sorry I wasn’t there when you needed me.”
Bran: “You were exactly where you were supposed to be.”
• 1. As to Sansa: Asking Jon after the fact to “forgive” her (followed by his notable silence before changing the subject) reminded me of her prior apology for her breach of trust in S6e10, and Jon’s explicit request that “We need to trust each other.” [Excerpt follows]
(S6e10, Sansa & Jon)
Sansa: “Only a fool would trust Littlefinger. I should have told you about him, about the Knights of the Vale. I’m sorry.”
Jon. “We need to trust each other. We can’t fight a war amongst ourselves. We have so many enemies now.”
And yet, in S8 she spilled a family secret right after swearing to maintain it – and without regard to the dangers posed to Jon by divulging it to Tyrion with the obvious intent that Tyrion would act on the information. At the very least, she could have given Jon a heads-up that she would not keep her word. No excuse. She had no right to unilaterally decide to divulge that information, especially after swearing not to.
• As to Arya: During my initial watch I did miss the tears running down her cheek, and Jon wiping her tears before holding her head to his shoulder.
• As to Bran: I have no f*cking clue what Jon was apologizing for. “I’m sorry I wasn’t there when you needed me.” What was Jon talking about? How and why did he think he let down Bran?
And I’m sorry, but Bran’s Zen Master stock line was getting tiresome: “You were exactly where you were supposed to be.”. It was sort of a retread of what he’d told Theon.
What was Bran conveying to Jon? That Jon was supposed to be alternately taking cover and yelling at an undead Viserion while Arya saved Bran and saved the world? Or something else?
Are, they ?
Her concealment of the Vale, (assumption here ) outside of she sent a letter she had nothing to give him, no troop size, no time line nothing; all she could do is tell him stick to the plan, but Ramsey’s a master at taking you out of it, and he was.
Promises are not Oath’s or Vows, they don’t invoke the gods, and speaking in the godswoods isn’t swearing to them, it’s so they can record or see, nothing more.
Her promise, well the thing about promises are they are contingent on what the secret is. No one is obligated to keep the promise because of this contingency.
Is it more noble to keep it and let someone she sees as unfit to rule and possibly a danger to her people and Westeros, or more noble to tell someone she trust who could let out that there is a viable person; known for bringing factions together and is a blood relative who she trust.?
She didn’t throw him under the bus, Bran, Sam and Jon did that.
Personal agenda, hmmm … seems like Varys saw the same thing .
I would go with Sansa and Varys on this, they saw the danger, Arya saw the danger, Jon and Tyrion ignored the danger, they wanted to believe soooo hard in Danny, that they refused to see the truth.
Thanks for the kind words.
I could say that I wish I had someone who could’ve told me, like Olenna told Jaime (in S7e3): “You love her. You really do love her. You poor fool. She’ll be the end of you.” But like with Jaime, it wouldn’t have mattered.
My fault: There were red flags, but I was either too naive to recognize them, or ignored them out of a sense of loyalty, or a stupid assumption that I could simply cut and run if things got too crazy. I can’t even blame the other person. Back then, I was just a “poor fool.” Luckily, I didn’t end up under a pile of (metaphorical) rubble.
I “get” why Jaime would leave a good woman and a second chance at an honorable life and run back to Cersei when he heard she was in peril. It was realistic. And as you said, their characters’ story was both compelling and tragic. (I for one never felt Cersei was inherently evil. Rather, her “hatefulness” was the product of a childhood with a cold, uncaring father, and a marriage to an emotional unavailable and abusive husband who was in love with a dead girl.)
So telling someone the facts and the way thing really are being angry, i’m sorry i’m not sugarcoating things enough for you, or do you only support views which align with your opinion ? This guy or girl might have a dissappointed reaction when he finds out that no one will take his or whoever’s fanfic as canon just because, that’s all i told him/her !
Well even if it does, i at least won’t watch it, just like i’m not going to watch this ST series, just like i didn’t watch the X Files revival, or the 24 revival or any of the cash grab revivals that were made over the past few years with no artistic integrity whatsover ! For me the series ends here no matter what bullshit reasoning they may try to use to bring it back !
“Her promise, well the thing about promises are they are contingent on what the secret is. No one is obligated to keep the promise because of this contingency.”
Let’s just say we have a philosophical difference about this. If someone unconditionally swears to maintain a confidence, there are no implied. contingencies. If exigent circumstances arise, then it’s incumbent on the person who was sworn to secrecy to obtain permission to disclose it. Or at the very least, inform the person who entrusted her with the secret that she is compelled to disclose it.
Let’s just leave it at that. I get your point: Honoring the promise was potentially more devastating than breaking it. I just felt it wasn’t up to Sansa to make that determination unilaterally.
To add to my previous comment, the only other ending that i will accept besides the one of the show is the books ending, if they ever get finished obviously(most likely not). Any other thing is just people with dollar signs in their eyes and not worth my time .
One of two things will happen.
1/ Maisie goes on to co-star in one or two bigger films, and then a few smaller roles (TV/film) and then things start to fizzle out. Not because she’s not talented, more because its a cutthroat biz and she is such a familiar/iconic face to fans. Happens to a lot of people who play BIG roles in one project for a long time. In this case, HBO will approach her about reprising Arya in 5-7 years, and voila, a sequel.
2/ Maisie transcends Arya and becomes a mega star, or lands another iconic role in a long-running series. For years she thanks GoT for her “start” but says she’ll never do it again. In this case, HBO will approach her about a sequel every couple of years and she’ll always say no. Until 20 years in the future, she has a bout of nostalgia, her schedule opens up, she loves the proposed script, the stars align, and voila, a sequel.
I have no doubt there will be one or more sequels for GoT with existing characters. It’s economics, it’s demand, it’s legacy.
Jon Snow is what, 26 years old? (Kit is 32). Arya’s what, 16? (Maisie is early 20s). Sansa is barely older. Tyrion’s mid-40s. Plenty of time for the characters to get into all sorts of trouble and adventure, and plenty of time for the actors to work through their post-GoT crises (is it me or do they all have PTSD??) and jump back on the nostalgia train.
Fair enough. I understand completely. Most sequels or reboots suck. They’re cash grabs exploiting the fans of the original.
I’m just saying there are exceptions. I mention ST:TNG because it was such an exception: much better than the original series.
On the other hand, I thought Star Wars: The Force Awakens was a pile of derivative, unoriginal garbage. I refuse to watch another Star Wars movie. (Best of luck to Benioff and Weiss.)
Yup. She now has her crown, sitting alone in the place she once couldn’t wait to get away from. The irony.
Also, I think she threw Jon under a snowplow, not a bus. It’s a much more northern thing to do. 🤪
Her promise, well the thing about promises are they are contingent on what the secret is. No one is obligated to keep the promise because of this contingency.
Is it more noble to keep it and let someone she sees as unfit to rule and possibly a danger to her people and Westeros, or more noble to tell someone she trust who could let out that there is a viable person; known for bringing factions together and is a blood relative who she trust.?
I’m not differing with you except about the exceptional nature of THIS promise. Jon did not want to divulge the information. The implications of the promise itself was discussed. Sansa wanted to know what it was before giving it (Jon’s not that stupid). Jon said “…but you have to swear you’ll never tell another soul.” Sansa asked why. “Because we’re family. Swear it.” And they swore under the Heart Tree, where you are only supposed to speak truth. And they swore on the one thing that was sacred between them: family. I don’t know how any words can be more binding to these four people. I suspect that’s why Jon didn’t forgive her when she asked him to but just gave some supportive platitudes.
I heard Arya’s boat sank after like 5 days at sea. No survivors, no sequel.
Jaime always was a way better character in the books, as many of them are to be honest, after they destroyed him in the show after season 4. Hes Just a gag in the show after that and a usless.
Thank God the true history ALWAYS Will be the books and not this show. And of course i and 95% of the people expect that If the books are ever finished they remake the show AGAIN, with better writers , way more time to Tell the history, better actors for Jon and Dany and of course they Will be more capable to do justice for the castles of the history. WF , highgarden and others of the show are jokes to what the books say. But in production they were 10/10 as music.
“And of course i and 95% of the people expect that If the books are ever finished they remake the show AGAIN….”
I’d say there’s a greater than 95% chance that neither of those events will ever occur.
In agreement with everything you said 🙂
Well, sometimes, when I read the opinions on this season I wonder if people truly believe it was the best ending they could have produced. At least, you sound like you think this way.
You see, Jon HAS BEEN built for a ‘chosen one’ character. And they changed it so that Arya kills the Night King. You know, if that doesn’t sound lame for you, I don’t think we’d agree.
I do know where are you coming fromwith your opinions. That there is nothing for sure till the very end. But to cut off at least Jon’s fight with the Night King? To meet the Ice and Fire (like with Dany)?
You can ALWAYS find an explanation for what happened. Ah, Dany has been foreshadowed to be mad. Ah, Arya has been training for months and she was meant to kill the God of Death. But it will always sound like a huge stretch.
You don’t think Jon served as a plot device last to seasons? Well, that would need further explanation. He and Dany were the most butchered characters in these series, but Jon easily wins this ranking. In season 7 he goes to Dragonstone to convince Daenerys to help him in the Great War. He then travels beyond the wall on the most retarded mission he could possibly imagine – and he could simply send his own people there; he was a King and he went anyway; and then deus ex machina happens and Dany helps them losing the dragon so that the Night King has a weapon to bring the Wall down. Now, let me tell you, THAT is never going to happen in the books 🙂
Season 8 – Jon discovers his heritage, but he doesn’t really care about it. He tells that to Dany right before the battle… obviously, they all survived, and so did the dragons. Then, loyal as hell Jon travels with Daenerys south wondering why she’s getting crazy (definitely not because he told his sisters about his legacy and btw, he wouldn’t be honorable if he just kept it for secret for a little bit longer). Ultimately, he kills her lover because she burnt the city when she was adviced not to. I meant, that’s ablog lot of cheap writing. If you still like his character, then I am impressed.
Now, I didn’t say I would love him to be a King. On the contrary, I love him going beyond the wall to live his peaceful life – but he should have decided on his own. Not to be exiled. He should have said, that he never was and never will be a Targaryen, he is Stark of blood and that the True North is were his destiny leads him. That would be much more impactful for this character.
You don’t like anything I said? Curious. Not even a Bran warging the dragon? Not some more light on Bran-Night King connection, apart from that bullshit ‘I am the memory of this world’. Bloodraven was actually one of the best theory for these series (in books we aren’t in that story at all).
I agree, I prefered the politics over the fantasy. But the compromise is that we didn’t get much of both. Definitely, there’s much more fire and Others. So what? That’ more fantasy. Not at all, it’s always been there. We have got fantasy in one of the worst iterations.
Politics – oh please. That was the worst season in terms of backstage plotting, politics, treasons and reason all behind it.
I wonder, if when the show went the way I described it, would you say the same things you say now? If you truly liked this season, it seems like you would still like it my way. You’re quite defensive about this seasom honestly – you say you wouldn’t like more of fantasy there. But if ultimately there was more of fantasy, you would still accept it. Isn’t that true?
It wasn’t even a snap. It was a plan she had before she went onto the battlefield. If they follow me, they live. If they oppose me and choose Cersei they die.
They can live in her new world or die in their old. They didn’t want to live in her new world, so they needed to die.
I’m watching the x-files now. I’m going to watch the revival, so I tell what I think of it. I just finished season 7 if I’m not mistaken.
One good revival that happened is the show Will and grace. It’s one of the few revivals that did a good job of retaining it’s old vibe.
I see you didn’t understand the show at all.
Arya killed death (sounds familiar, her journey is about the god of death, her braavos journey)
Jon killed love by duty. Another theme
Cersei is killed by power. Another theme.
The deaths were exactly what they needed to be. And Jon was still the chosen one, but so was all the other characters in the long night.
but at the end Jon was the last prince that was promised. He Ended Darkness by stabbing darkness (Nissa Nissa/ Dany) into the heart. Forging lightbringer (ending of monarchy)
I agree that the how part could have been improved. We got a 8/9 but we should have gotten a 11. But why complain, especially after watching the last watch with how much work there is put into this season.
One of the strangest features is that over Jaime’s entire life, Jaime repeatedly has chosen Tyrion over Cersei’s preferences.
Prior to Episode 4, Jaime was one of the most intriguing complex characters in the story. (He is my favorite character.) I really thought he had one of the best arcs that I had seen in fiction. It was a stunning storyline that made GOT for me. Then it turned out that it was not an arc at all.
To my horror and amusement, they were telling a different story. Jaime was really Cersei’s Reek. He was a failed human being. He was the same person we met in Season 1, well maybe worse. His entire storyline was a pointless exercise in nothing.
It was strange that he did not leave when she was in peril. That was when the army and two dragons left to kill her. He left WF when he heard she was winning.
It may have been a better choice for him to simply stay in KL and help her prepare for the war. Instead, he abandoned Cersei and left her protection to Euron & Qyburn. It was these two that built all the ballistas etc. Then upon hearing she was progressing well in the fight, he abandoned his new girlfriend.
I am not sure I understood it. I did not find it compelling. I found it disappointing – that of the many characters in the story, the single one with the most interesting arc turned out not to be interesting and not to have an arc. He was in the same place as when we met him – meaning his entire 8 seasons was a waste. Why bother? He did worse than any other character in the story.
(I do not wish to say much about your personal story. However, it seemed that your story was more like the arc/story I thought Jaime had. One which you become a stronger person and moved on to a better life. Jaime’s story is that he died a complete failure.)
This is the exact reason that I think it was a colossal dramatic failure. It was completely static – what was the story? This is a failed human being that remained a failed human being for eight seasons.
Cersei evolved. Even Qyburn evolved. Even Euron too. Jaime, nope.
He evolved, and then he devolved again. A bitter lesson to those who fail to watch The Mango Show.
Kevin, I think Adam did understand, but you understand on a deeper level than him and most of the truly irate fans. Besides, Bran may have seen the whole whole thing (per my ‘predestination’ comment at 8:52), and had occasionally intervened, like when he gave Arya the magical Dagger. D&D used George’s ending. Their mistake was letting their RUSH obscure the clarity of themes and and limit their time to sufficiently set up what seems like inexplicable and inconsistent outcomes. In many cases, there was great subtlety to their writing, but subtlety is so counterproductiive when your average audience is 21YOs with little literary background and a poor attention span. (When GRRM originated this convoluted saga, 21YOs hadn’t been shaped by computers, videogames, and superhero culture.)
Human beings often throw out the baby with the bathwater. Fans were furious that the Valonqar was the building, when the Valonqar had never even been mentioned on the show! But themes and lessons require more concentration. Is it not more appropriate that Cersei and Jaime die together, and that Cersei herself be killed just as she had most memorably killed others: being buried by a building brought down by the enemy? Arya killed false death for Death (the MFG): the Night King was the antiDeath because he stole death from the Dead and made them his slaves. The MFG’s protection and gratitude explains her so-called Plot Armor that fans rail on about. It even explains Jaqen’s smile. And to your list we could add the theme of power. In the end, if it’s all predestined, we are all Orson’s beetles,. Only Bran (with Tyrion, who at least tried to fathom Orson’s actions) have enough power to try to steer us in a better direction. I too think the season and finale merit an 8/9 rating. Most of the episodes should and would have that sort of rating if the mob mentality hadn’t deliberately manipulated the results.
All but inconceivable. Do you think the Lord of Light and Many Faced God would let that happen to their pet Stark? And Old God Bran knows she will always be where she is meant to be. No one but Jon has served these three gods better. No. True, there will be no sequel, but being the favourite of the right gods guarantees her a calm sea and prosperous voyage. The Iliad and Odyssey proved that.
Well, I was completely mistaken. Dude seemed to evolve for 7.5 seasons. Then crashed and burned in 0.5 season. I do not know what to think! Still, do not!
You say that Jaime is your favorite character, but then you grossly misunderstand him. Jaime is in no way the same person he was in season 1. It wasn’t his love for Cersei that was the problem. It was the things he did for that love, but he doesn’t do those things anymore. He redeemed himself by going North to fight for the Stark’s home and humanity, and by earning Bran’s forgiveness. All of that doesn’t go away because he wanted to try and save his sister and unborn child.
I thought better of you.
Please don’t indulge and encourage those that would endlessly spew biased bile about Sansa’s character, making this an unpleasant place to visit for those that like the character.
You are very optimistic.
I like that.
I am in the evolve then devolve camp.
But I may be convinced otherwise. I am still thinking thru what I am supposed to believe about Jaime. And Brienne as well. And others.
This endless bashing of her everywhere is why I, even though reading articles here every day, pretty much never comment here or anywhere and why I don’t communicate with other fans at all. I just don’t want to commit myself to / to put myself through constant negativity. Yes, Sansa has done a lot of bad things that cost others up to their life but turning everything she did into negative things & bashing is beyond my understanding.
After I commented on the episode where Sansa got raped somewhere and where I talked about my own experiences on that matter the first thing I got asked was: “Have you even read the books?” (I had in fact done that before I started watching GOT). I would never ask this to someone in such a situation.
Stark Raven' Rad,
I agree, the story needed to have had more episodes. But if you watch the last watch segment I can see why it was not advisable to put those restrains on the crew. It was hard work for them, another season would probably have broken them. That’s where shows like BB can have it easier for the crew. There’s not small details that needed to be overlooked. Like is this fake castle looking real etc. Is there enough snow. Are the statues in the GoT vibe etc.
Twin Peaks: The Return is by far the best revival that has ever been made. Of course, they had a perfect setup ending the original run with Laura telling Dale she’ll see him in 25 years. It wasn’t even a real plan but still the best long game ever enacted on television.
Fair warning X-Files is the exact opposite. I don’t know if this is a rewatch or if you’ve never seen it before, but the revival completely ignores the original ending.
Stark Raven' Rad,
So… you say my understanding of the show and story is not on the deep level at all? Well, that’s pretty funny since @kevin1989 didn’t even bother to read my comments carefully.
I DO agree with Jon’s fate. I love the idea of him going beyond the Wall to live a peaceful life with wildlings – where he belongs. He survived a lot and the burden of leading was always on his shoulders while he didn’t want it. He didn’t want to be a Lord Commander. He didn’t want to be a King in the North. He didn’t want to be a King of the Seven Kingdoms. He sacrificed his life for a greater cause and that’s AMAZING. I do love it.
Cersei dies because of her lust for power. She dies fearful in the arms of her twin brother. They were destined for each other. It has been said, that they were born together, and together they will die.
Now – Arya. It is quite convinient to say that she was meant to kill the God of Death. Everyone’s free for interpretation. I simply disagree with that. I don’t think it was her destiny. There’s not even a Night King in the books. But since Hardhome it was built toward this special moment, when Jon has to fight for a greater cause once again. Survivor, a Hero of People fights the Death. But writers decided it would be “cooler” to leave the Night King. I can only imagine how they decided it:
– Well, you know what? Jon killing the Night King feels quite cliche. I came up with an idea of Arya killing him.
– What? Why?
– You know, we always portrayed her as a character that confronts the God of Death. And who, if not the Night King is a better candidate for a God of Death? That would be a surprise! And we need to do something with Arya…
– Yeah, good idea.
And you know what? “Game Revealed” only proves it. They decided it would be Arya that kills the Night King in 3 years before, because if was Jon, it would be boring… you see? They simply cared for a shock value. It is YOU who build a background for that to happen. I agree, it fits the theme. But is it satisfying from every perspective? Not at all, because Jon’s build-up since Hardcome has been forgotten in a moment. All he didn in episode 3 was to fly the dragon, go to help Bran, eventually being blocked by Viserion, and shouting at him. I am sorry I do not understand the “depth” behind it 🙂
Now, about Bran… boy, oh boy. It’s such a strech for his character it just melts my brain. He saw everything. He planned it. He knew how the events would go. He knew he has to give Arya the dagger, because it would be her to kill the Night King. He knew he’s going to end up as a King of the Seven Kingdoms.
And guess what. Barely anything foreshadows it. Not to mention he constantly repeat the phrase “that he do not desire anything, anymore”.
I get the idea of him sitting on the throne (the wheelchair one), but man. It’s still a show. The more “untold” stories you leave, the more you can freely interpret. But there are some rules in storytelling – you leave clues behind. And the only clue they left for Bran foreseeing the future is… the Catspaw. And by the way, it’s even greater strech when you take into account the fact, that it ALREADY has been told, that Bran knew Arya would use it against Littlefinger. So saying now, that it was meant for the Night King in the first place is simply a hoax. But okay, I understand it’s some “deeper level foreshadowing” 🙂
I love the idea of Jaimie dying in the arms of her lover. I love his relations with Brienne. It’s like a bad, addictive affection against a pure, flawless love. What a beautiful theme. The only love Jaimie truly understands is the love to his sister. He grew up with that, and he can’t fight himself not to return to her. Until this point, it doesn’t ruin his arc at all. He redeemed himself fighting the dead. He has been forgiven by Bran. But the freaking sex scene ruined it all. And you know why? Because I cried when I saw Jaimie knighting Brienne. IThe only things she wanted from life was being a knight and a love from a man, especially Jaimie. And he gave it to her with that simple act. Both – a knight status as a token of their affection. And that was it. B E A U T I F U L. And then they ruin this relation with a primitive lust for sex. The knigting was such an impactful moment, that it served the purpose of sex scene to me. If only they showed the Jaimie internal struggle – to stay with purity or to return to his sister. But they didn’t really.
Forget about the theories for a while and be honest with yourself. How much is being told in the show, and how much you actually make up for yourself trying to prove me wrong? Trying to explain all the incosistancies of the show. Trying to forget the lack of logic.
Remember how characters fought with they own thoughts? How they struggled with the world they were in? With entourage? Now we get a little of that with Daenerys. But even that is weird, since I felt absolutely feel disconnected from that character, and honestly, even from Jaimie and Cersei too.
Jorah dies, Rheagal dies, Missandei dies, her advisors are bad, and Jon told his sisters the truth about the parentage. I get it. She is mentally broken. But it feels so sudden. Don’t you really feel like 1 or 2 seasons would give it more justice. Or maybe if she decided to destroy JUST the Red Keep and incidentally began the chain reaction of Wildfire catches exploding.
That would even give another layer to her story – her father left the catches all around the city as a metaphor of his Targaryen’s madness, but in his loss of sanity, he thought he did the right thing. He was not aware of his acts. And so Daenerys would go for her lust of power, incidentally destroying the city while everyone dissuaded her not to attack the King’s Landing. Why would she kill all the innocent people? He hates Lannisters. And she ALWAYS cared for disadventaged. And that’s bullshit she did it in Mereen as a startegy to win people’s hearts. Well, that’s partially true, but she did it from personal motives mainly. Look how compassionate toward the slaves she is. So it would be a better way to present her madness as an accident she didn’t ever want to happen. She wasnted the power, but it has a cost of innocence. And it was HER FATHER left the shit, that SHE tiggered.
But I get it, no matter what I say, you will go with my “not understanding of the story”. And that the story COULDN’T go any other way. And that millions of people actually don’t understand it just like me. And they aren’t happy because their expectations of fan theories were subverted.
No, just listen to the constructive criticism and you will know that majority of the fanbase is mad simply because they loved the story and this season, the level of inconcistencies exceeded their acceptance.
It’s not really about “how the characters arc’s ended”. It’s “how did we get to these endings”. Those are two very different things.
Please, don’t tell me there is another level of understanding I don’t get. And that I am terrible at interpreting characters motives and story metaphors. I’m quite good at it, and that’s exactly why I say this story ending was close to bullshit rather than a satisfying and meaningful ending. As I said, be fair and honest, and answer a simple question: how much has been told vs. how much am I making up for myself to expalin what really happened?
about twin peaks: Yes, season 3 is even the best season for me. Amazing return.
About x-files: No rewatch first watch. And it all depends if the undoing of the first ending is done in a way that you think: Okay can live with that. Like with Will and grace (not for x-files this is not a comedy) they made a joke at the first scene of the revival that the ending of the first ending was more a acid trip of one of the characters and she snapped out of that trip at the first scene of the revival.
Sorry, I am not faimilar with these 2. Hard to refer.
I don’t think that my understanding of the show is much deeper, you seems to know a lot about it. And I agree with you. I think they should have gone with Dany turn with their first idea. Jorah would have lived. He would have got praise in episode 4 like Jon, and Dany even felt more isolated. Later on in the episode it was meant for Jorah to agree with waiting to go south. And he was supposed to speak out against Dany plan to kill innocence. He was suposed to go the Tyrion route, take down Dany (for the safety of Westeros) but keep her alive because he loves her.
I think Jorah turning on her would have made a hell of a difference into the believability of Dany going berserk. What do you think?
I meant more, that show omitted the final in a way that made sense for that show. I hope x-files does the same.
Sure dreaming is always nice, but you do realise those are only dreams right, sometimes you need to wake up to reality
No, i think losing Jorah along with Missandei made much more sense in the terms of Dany feeling isolated and alone, Jorah has been with her since season 1 save the brief time when he was exiled . He was also the one who made her forgive Tyrion at the beginning of the season, he would have certainly been able to turn her around .
Ok, a few things here.. You seem to criticize D&D for coming up with the Arya killing the NK twist 3 years ago, yet this is exactly the kind of thing George does. He has said over and over again that he is a gardener when it comes to his writing. While he does have some major plot points planned out, there is a lot that he discovers as he writes. Why is this okay for George, but not for D&D? Particularly when it works as well as it does here. It perfectly fits in with Arya’s arc and purpose, and is exactly the kind of thing George would do, so it fits within the theme of the story.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. Jon defeating the NK in a sword fight is boring. It. Is. Boring. And. Cliche. Jon’s role in defeating the dead is still pivotal as the one to lead everyone in this effort. Without Jon, everyone would be dead. But who better than someone trained by the Faceless Men, who punish those who “steal” from the Many-Faced God, who is unsuspecting and a master assassin to deal the killing blow?
This is not a one hero type of story. So you would prefer Jon get all the credit and all the big moments? I can’t say how happy I am that the story has proved you wrong in underestimating Arya’s (and others’) importance to the story.
Well, I was talking with friend about Jorah. We agreed, that I’d be cool if Sam failed to cure Jorah. He would have nothing to lose in the end, and it would explain his willingness to die for Daenerys as not much of his life left to worship her. And he’s story arc would end on him sacrificing himself for Dany. That saying, I’m actually pleased with his arc. He’s death scene was painful to watch. Jorah, Theon and Sansa&Tyrion in crypts were the only moments in this episode I cared about. Jorah fulfilling his destiny. He defended her to the very last drop of his blood. Theon has been redeemed. Tyrion and Sansa – I thought they were about to go for suicide; nevertheless, a truly beautiful scene.
But yeah, Jorah arc has been satisfying. And it proves the point, that even though he was the very first safe bet on episode 3 deaths, it was still rewarding and engaging.
Sorry you took it that way. I thought I was both defending you and agreeing with Kevin on his Themes. You’re not alone–there are disappointed fans and disappointed critics. This show is written either in a superficial way–what you see is what you get– or there is a lot going on under the surface. My approach has always been the latter (mainly because my background is teaching English lit and writing). Right now unhappy fans ask what’s the point, but I assume there was and is a point for GRRM and D&D and try to find it. The themes and lessons are the point for all five heroes (Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya, and Bran) and their hero’s journeys. (These are also GRRM’s 1993 Five to survive, though Dany turned into an antihero and did not.) But one must remember a lot from eight years or go digging for the explanations. Understandably, this frustrates most people. Unquestionably, D&D should have been much clearer in these last seasons, and not so drawn to surprises for surprise’s sake. Anyway–
“And you know what? “Game Revealed” only proves it. They decided it would be Arya that kills the Night King in 3 years before, because if was Jon, it would be boring… you see? They simply cared for a shock value. It is YOU who build a background for that to happen. I agree, it fits the theme. But is it satisfying from every perspective? Not at all, because Jon’s build-up since Hardcome has been forgotten in a moment.”
I know D&D said that. But they created the Night King per se, and at some point had to decide how he died and by whom. It was always going to be Jon, Bran, or Arya. And since THEY had omitted much of the lore, they had leeway. But once they had post-death Jon go political, especially as KitN, his purpose shifted to an extent. It shifted even more when Sansa embroiled him in her focus on the Game. And once Bran returned from hiatus he was much more involved interacting with past/present/future. And once Arya triumphed over the Waif and got her No One diploma, she was allowed to leave the HoB&W. She made a brief stop to accomplish key Lady Stoneheart plot points, and possibly defied predestination to go home to Jon. What a dilemma for D&D.
It sounds like they decided around that time. They probably ruled out Bran because that might not be visual. Jon was the obvious choice, but we’d seen him fight many times, including Hardhome, the BoB, etc, and they were surely planning his Magnificent 7 exploits in S7. Besides, Jon already had the award for most frequent use of plot armor. Yes, Arya would be a surprise. But it also fulfilled the four-year Faceless Men storyline (from recruitment–possibly for a hidden agenda to train her to fight the AotD–to exit.). And whilst she had no long-term connection to the Others storyline, she was very tied to both Bran AND Jon, which means she inherited it. But since 1.02 she had been the self-appointed protector of her family, so her role as Stark Uber-Protector was well established. Within the show, she pursued the NK only because Melisandre showed her it was her fate (including Not Today protection), AND she was protecting her baby brother. To emphasise this, she protected Bran exactly as Summer did in 1.02–leaping out of the dark to surprise and kill his assailant. And the magical Dagger underlined that parallel. We were all surprised because, to paraphrase Syrio, the story misled but our memory should have shouted the truth. “You were watching but not seeing. The seeing…the true seeing…that is the heart of swordplay.” And understanding Game of Thrones. In retrospect, it’s nowhere near as surprising as it was when Episode 3 aired. The main thing is that Jon’s efforts made the whole thing possible, and Arya only struck the final blow.
True, but having him turn against her would have pushed her over the edge directly. If she would have found out Jorah was collaborating with Varys. That would give Dany a direct cause to feel paranoia.
Here’s the thing and it can go anyway any of us want.
Sansa said the promise to Jon, even if he asked her to swear to him, he’s not a god and neither Sansa, Jon or Arya invoked the gods in this.
WRG to forgiving her; he didn’t have to say it the extra hold with the hug did that.
Also everything was over, before anyone got Varys’s letters and can act on it.
Tyrion not having that info could be detrimental to the realm, because he have nothing to convince Jon on the dangers to him, but his sisters and everyone else.
People may not like it, but Sansa made the correct call and it weighted on her doing so.
We’re not privy to the end point, so we can’t say it was unilateral. we don’t know if Jon left before that point or if Bran gave more info to the girls.
But you’re right it’s divisive either way , but Tyrion, Varys, Sansa feel as our friend from another universe do : “The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few…or the one ”
It was a damn heartbreaking decision and she made it and owned it.
Isn’t that what we expect of future or good leaders ?
I felt more sorry for Cersei for more of the show than I had for Dany *shrug*
Guess I’m nobody…
Stark Raven’ Rad,
Ever since Bran gave the VS dagger to Arya in S7e4 (with that emphatic expression on his face, as if fulfulling a premonition), we had to figure that Arya wouid be a prime candidate to take out NK. “Chekhov’s Dagger”, as Wimsey might call it.
You don’t hang a Valyrian Steel dagger on the belt of a ninja assassin unless she’s going wind up stabbing “that horned f*cker” with it.
Sure, it could’ve been Jon with Longclaw or one of the handful of other characters with a VS weapon. I suppose stealth and swiftness were more important than brawn. What was it that Syrio told her? Something like: “This is not the knight’s dance we are learning, hacking and hammering. This is the Braavos dance. It is swift… and sudden.”
Besides, it’s my understanding that Arya’s other “big” moments were transplanted from other books! characters’ story lines: Frey pies from Lord Manderly, and exterminating House Frey doofuses from Lady Stoneheart. I figured the showrunners had to give Arya something to do after they ran out of source material upon her unsanctioned kill in Braavos in the “Mercy” chapter – which the show adapted into Arya exsanguinating Meryn F*cking Trant – until her emergence as a major player in the endgame, the details of which GRRM had imparted to the showrunners.
“Jaime was really Cersei’s Reek.”
Very apt description, my dear Mango!
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Long, heartfelt apology getting lost in the ether. I’ll try again later.
That was an inexplicable suicide, however. The Blackfish descends directly from Monty Python’s Black Knight.
OMG, first of all, the Wrap’s photo of Sophie and Tony dressed as characters from their respective shows is hilarious!! And Veep and GoT are actually quite similar :
Tony: “Oh, yeah. Selina is Cersei. We’ve got our own game of thrones happening. We’re all circling her throne. [. . .]
I love how opposite the shows are, but how if you really look at the baseline, it’s all about everybody reaching for power. Everybody’s stabbing each other in the back to get ahead, and you also see how meaningless it is. It’s all selfishness and ego.”
I love Tony Hale. I also watch Veep and that finale was brutal…dare I say it… bittersweet.
Sophie: “It’s difficult to find characters as well-written as Sansa Stark. But it’s kind of inspired me to start screenwriting, because if you can’t find those roles for yourself, you’ve got to make them for yourself.” Get it, Girl!!
And thank you Luka for coming to the defense of Jaime’s storyline and ultimate end!!
“His staying in Winterfell is unrealistic. Cersei is the most important person in his life, whether he wants her to be or not. The idea that he was going to just let her die alone is too horrible for him.”
I hated reading that what happened to him was “character assassination” or that his character digressed and his “redemption arc” was ruined. For me, Jaime was not in any way on a “redemption” journey, as someone like Theon was. He was never really apologetic about what he did, except when he apologised to Bran and even then, Bran called him out on that. I loved Jaime’s end, and I too knew he would always go back to Cersei. Not that I’m completely disregarding Brienne. I believe they truly did love each other and she indeed helped him become a better man. There is even a chance, as Axey pointed out, that Jaime returns to Cersei not as a lover but as a brother loyal to his family, and that fits too. Ever since reading ASOIAF, I speculated that he would die and he would die with Cersei:
“I cannot die while Cersei lives, he told himself. We will die together as we were born together.” – Jaime, A Storm of Swords
Many of the persons that like how Jaime’s story ended are persons that hated him for the entire series. They think he got the humiliating death he always deserved and that it fits with his storyline. It would be more honest for them just to say so.
The thought to die with Cersei was early in Jaime’s story when he lost his hand. My mistaken view was that after the loss of his hand that Jaime had an identity arc in which he evolved to become a better person. At the end, he did not.
Jaime’s “redemption arc” was not the same as Theon. Some of the audience got to like him more as they got to know Jaime better and his reasons for his actions. That is the best measure of his redemption. He was never as “Theon like” character – he was never defined by regret. He did regret Bran etc. He was a grey character and in fact, we could argue for a long time about whether his sins were, in fact, worse than anyone else’s.
Brienne was comfortable writing that as she knew that when Riverrun was taken, Blackfish was alive as she was there! She told him to join her. Blackfish went back into the castle as a suicide effort. He was a “death by cop.”
And of course, many of those that liked that Jaime died with Cersei are the persons that enjoyed the incestous love story.
I can’t tell if you are insinuating that I hated Jaime (which I don’t) and liked his incestuous relationship with Cersei 😂 But in any case, I personally speculated he would die with Cersei based off of ASOIAF where I think it is heavily foreshadowed they will die together. The Jaime quote from ASoS is just one instance of either Cersei and Jaime saying a version of this line in their POVs. Obviously, he’s still a contender to be the valonqar in the novels but I think Cersei and Jaime dying together will be book canon. I think it’s the reason why I wasn’t upset that Jaime left Brienne and went to Cersei. For me, when this happened it was more like “well, yeah, of course.”
Also, I don’t think his death was humiliating and I found that his and Cersei’s scene was one of the more emotional scenes in The Bells. I think Jaime returned to KL a better man and it was his last sacrifice. He could have easily stayed with Brienne but chose to be with his family. Axey articulated it well when he said he chose to sacrifice the life he could have had with Brienne to be with Cersei, and again, as he speculates: Jaime never kissed Cersei on the mouth when he returned. They embraced and he kissed her on the head, which is why he guessed that Jaime returns to her as a brother and not as a lover (which I like more). But I did comment in another post that it is crazy/strange that one of the longest most enduring relationships in this series is between Jaime and Cersei.
No need to apologise. I just think people should be mindful of the fact that there are those who, for whatever reason, will maliciously seek to tarnish and deconstruct certain characters’ legacies; and therefore try to avoid indulging or encouraging things like mean-spirited nicknames and bad faith interpretations of their fates.
I’ve seen a few people on other sites trying to tarnish Arya’s legacy, presumably because they’re peeved by her prominence in the final season, but obviously Sansa is the common target for this sort of behaviour because she wasn’t well liked to begin with. Now that the show has concluded with a largely positive ending for the character, she’s subject to renewed scorn.
Nothing wrong with debating the character’s actions and their implications. Goodness knows we’ve all debated that KotV storyline pretty thoroughly over the past few years. But just be wary of those acting in bad faith, who would deliberately seek to undermine others’ appreciation of the conclusion to her story.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I haven’t seen any malicious attacks on Sansa in this thread. Can you point them out? You’re not talking about the “Snitch in the North” line, are you?
It might not end up being a redemption arc, but redemption is central to Jaime’s character. In the book at least, he is trying to honour his oaths and behave in a manner suited to a knight. These are things that he discarded years ago, but he is reconnecting with his beliefs while separated from Cersei. This is what GRRM said about him,
Apparently then, Jaime’s is a tale of failed redemption, and that is very sad. I can get behind that, it’s a tragedy, but I do have a major issue with its execution in the show. His sudden decision to return to Cersei after she sent an assassin to kill him left me baffled, he also decided to leave after she killed a dragon, so she was winning. It’s no wonder that so many people thought he was returning to kill her. It was confusing, I also hated the way he treated Brienne, the one person who knew him better than anybody and believed in him. It was as if his soul had left his body. Add in the ‘I never cared about the innocent’ line, and yes, I do consider it character assassination.
If he was going back to her as a brother, they could have told us that, but nope, it was a complete mess. And now we have people thinking he slept with Brienne out of pity because she was a virgin ugh. Brienne didn’t deserve that, and it had to be more than that, because as we know, Jaime is a one woman man, and he slept with another woman for the first time in his life, that is a big deal. they had 7 seasons of character development discarded in literally 20 minutes. It could have been a fabulous story if given the time to breath but the pace of it left me reeling. In the end I didn’t care that my favourite character died, I should have been crying my eyes out over his failure, but I felt nothing but frustration. And where was my valonqar prophecy? Please GRRM, release the book and tell this story properly, because this was tough to watch.
This part of your post is almost exactly how I feel. I had really grown from hating Jaime to caring a lot for him. I was prepared to be rather devastated by his death, but instead I felt more like “You stupid man.” Maybe that’s good? Lol. I can accept that they chose for him to go back to Cersei, even though I don’t like it, it’s what happened. But I really wish they’d left his knighting of Brienne as the ‘love scene’ between the two. It was a million times more emotional than a drunken escapade, even though they made it sound as though he planned to stay North afterwards.
No matter how much Cersei humiliated Jaime, he either never left her or always came back to her.
Here’s Jaime’s theme song, courtesy of my older brother who played oldies records in our room day and night when I was growing up.
🎶 “And like a rubber ball,
I come bouncing back to you,
Rubber ball, I come bouncing back to you.“🎵
Yeah, they were together for a few weeks, and Jaime was supposedly happy until Bronn showed up, and reminded him about Cersei. But so so many people think it was a one time drunken thing. The passage of time just didn’t translate, and we didn’t see them together as a couple at all. I think it was a natural progression for their relationship, he practically had heart eyes throughout episode 2, but if they didn’t have time to show the relationship, then I too wish they had left it at the knighting scene.
I wasn’t upset that Jaime died, but I was upset for Brienne, one of my favourite characters. The way it was handled did her no favour’s. And then he tries to sneak out in the middle of the night? Just no. They even embellished his bad body resume, apparently he would have killed everyone in RR for Cersei, as a book reader I was cringing. It was sad to see this character, who had finally developed the capacity to care about people not named Lannister just revert in the blink of an eye.
I would have been fine with it if he had just said, ‘look Brienne, I can’t stay, my family is in the south and I have to be there, maybe I can talk Cersei into surrendering, I don’t know, but I can’t sit here and do nothing, she’s pregnant and the baby deserves to live if nothing else’ and off he goes. If he’d mentioned Brienne to Tyrion or actually tried to ring the bells himself, that would have helped, instead we got that hideous fight with Euron. Sorry, but I hated it lol, it was the absolute worst outcome for his character, killed by a brick with his abusive lover, great.
^ That should be bad boy resume, not bad body resume lol. Too late to edit now.
Yup, there were some complete contradictions (such as forgetting he gave a shit about the good ol regular folk, you know, the entire city that he killed Aerys to save) that just made me have question marks popping out of my ears. I know he had been with Brienne for some time, but you’re right in that they didn’t really get into it (other than when they said that Ser Jaime would be staying at Winterfell, etc). Which is why I wish they just hadn’t let her down like that with a throwaway “It’s not you, it’s me” Jaime v1.0.
I don’t know, I just found it very strange that Sansa’s callous “I always wanted to be there when they executed your sister” line seemed to tip his scales (also, thanks for being an ass to him in front of your honourable sworn sword Brienne who obviously loves him), when the majority of the people there hardly concealed that they felt the same way too. As though he’d just click back on and be like “Oh yeah, shit, forgot – totally have to try and save her!” BUT THEN HE DID! *kicks dirt*
Brienne is in my top 5 characters too, and I was pissed with him slinking away like that. *kicks more dirt*
I thought maybe Tyrion had totally gone off his rocker and was whacking them both with that brick when he found them, which to be honest I sorta felt like doing.
But I really wish they’d left his knighting of Brienne as the ‘love scene’ between the two. It was a million times more emotional than a drunken escapade,
Yes! Completely agree. It was such a beautiful and emotional scene much more than consummating their love, which for me, I hate to say it and throw this word around, felt fan servicey. I do think the writers failed to create a plot that would be a tragic and fitting for Jaime without reducing Brienne to the pitiful crying character, which Gwen also addressed and initially did not like how that went down.
I do expect Jaime to return to Cersei in ASOIAF as well,but at least he’s still a contender to be the valonqar there!
*runs back into room*
“AND ANOTHER THING!!!…” Lol.
But yes, another thing…Cersei’s invisible pregnancy (I realize the passing of time component is out of whack in Westeros, but come on). WHY on earth were people gullible enough to not only believe her, but to risk so many more lives because of it? I assume that is was in fact real, despite some truly strange gestation period, because she’d have no reason to lie to Jaime while the roof caved in, but holy crap. Cersei is not known to be above trickery. Was it just to prove the Maggy the Frog prophecy untrue? Because it already had been, as apparently Cersei and Robert did have a kid as well. As for wanting to make her seem like a mother figure….Tommen says hi. She’s still wearing his scalp, after all.
I know. ☹ Like I’ve said before I love the series and don’t need or expect to have the characters I like succeed in the end, but the journey there….please be filled out, and not just with feast scenes and Moon Boy for all I know. 🤪
Lol, I don’t blame you, things keep popping into my head as well!
Apparently they filmed a scene showing Cersei waking up with bloody sheets, and it was cut from season 7. So she wasn’t supposed to be pregnant in S8, somewhere along the way they changed their plan, and it shows imo. It was a strange plot device which I can only assume existed to make the audience feel sympathy for Cersei in the end. It also voided the valonqar prophecy, because no way does Jaime kill his own kid. Man, I wish she had gone down in a blaze of glory.
I also think that they skipped the valonqar prophecy because Jon killed Dany in the next episode, it would have been too similar, 2 women killed by their lovers. This won’t be an issue in the book because I think Cersei will die much sooner, FAegon will probably be on the throne by the time Dany rocks up.
In theory, Jaime returning to Cersei – fine, it will happen in the book, he even says that he will have to face her if she isn’t killed for treason first (note he doesn’t rush to save her) but it won’t be as a lover, he may change his mind when he see’s her, but I don’t think he will go back like he did in the show, thank God. I have a massive list of everything I hate about the way they did it. they could have had Brienne start her own page ffs, so that her last emotional moment was about her, but no.
It was so beautiful! It’s my favourite scene in the season, NCW almost had an outer body experience shooting it, he said that he had no memory of what he did in that scene. I loved that episode so much, it said everything that they needed to about their relationship. If them sleeping together was fan service, they failed because I don’t know many people who are happy with how it played out, it was like a college comedy. No thanks lol.
Depending on what happens with LSH, we may see them together in the books (if they live) you can’t put a character who see’s love as a cruel joke with a character who prioritises love over everything and have nothing happen. GRRM wrote them as a reverse Beauty and the Beast, a story he is fond of (he even wrote for the TV show), so I think there is more to come from that. He also wrote The Lion and the Rose, and when Loras tells Jaime that he will never marry Cersei, Brienne walks right across the screen as the bear and the maiden fair plays in the background, that’s no accident. Then of course Jaime will have to confront/save Cersei and inevitably die, then I will cry.
I’m talking about the intent behind that comment which I am pretty certain, based on previous behaviour, is malicious and would get worse if encouraged.
You don’t have to say particularly rude things for the intent to be to upset and alienate people.
Lots of agree with here. The creative ideas here sound quite good.
It was the absolutely worse outcome for his character. And it followed many seasons of what seemed to be a clear arc of a man becoming a better and better person. It was a reversal of his “arc”. As for RR, the whole point was that he settled the dispute in a creative manner and showed him using his other leadership skills. When did RR become part of his “hatefulness”
Death by stones is “biblical” punishment for adultery and other sexual crimes. (More religious persons may correct me.) It was disappointing for a man that had “walked away” at the end of Season 7 and established a new relationship with a woman that he has loved for a long time. A woman that seemed to value the same things that he did.
In Season 5, GOT used CGI to show Jaime looking a Tarth wistfully, they seemed to want us to think of his feeling for Brienne. This was never professional respect only. I do not think people do not look at professional partner’s islands like that. It was more than curiosity. It was telegraphed as love on Jaime’s part, I think. All for nothing. We are to believe he tried to sneak away from her.
Jaime was by far my favorite character. His arc was one of the joys of GOT. To see it turned to dust in 3 episodes was to erase all my pleasure from the years. As for the fight with Euron? Ughh!
In my view, Brienne got almost the worse ending for her character as well. Even the knighting scene is useless now, he was shown a trying to sneak away from the woman he showed such respect for just an episode previously. The sex I was fine with – they both wanted each other for such a long time. And yes, they were together for weeks as lovers.
Listen, you two are setting my progress back! (As I starting kicking dirt again!)
For me, Jaime’s storyline was one of the most beautiful parts of GOT. Since the “disaster” I have tried to re-examine his story and tried to look at him as a failed human being – to see the story from a different angle to get to the end we got. It is not working. The parts do not fit together.
The strange thing is that Cersei was more difficult/abusive with others than with Jaime. Jaime was very generous with both Cersei and Tyrion. He forgave Tyrion after Tyrion betrayed him and killed Tywin. So it is not surprising that he forgave Cersei a lot. Cersei was often at her most vulnerable/needing support when with Jaime. I think he seemed to keep coming back because that is where Tywin, Tyrion, Cersei and Jaime all seemed to live. Dude came back to his house and stuff.
On reflecting a bit more, I am again convinced that Jaime did repeatedly refused Cersei what she wanted. He repeatedly chose Tyrion’s wishes/wellbeing over Cersei’s. For Tyrion’s trial, Jaime was vigorously opposing Cersei. He even agreed to marry another woman and move back to Casterly Rock in exchange to save Tyrion. He sent Brienne to save Sansa even though he knew this was the opposite of what Cersei wanted and at Brienne’s request tried to send the Tully army to help Sansa retake Winterfell.
A lot of what Jaime’s activities was for House Lannister at war. In that, he was on the same side as Cersei BUT NOT necessarily doing it for Cersei. He was doing for himself, family and ancestors. (Tyrion was doing stuff for House Lannister as well, until Tyrion left town.)
At the end of S7, Jaime walked out on Cersei to go north when they differed on a moral issue. (In book, he tosses Cersei’s request for help into the fire.) S8 just erased the big events of S7 for Jaime. Geez.
I still have the 45 !
I thought the “Snitch in the North” line was harmless fun, and was actually pretty funny, but of course, YMMV.
And if you think that was bad, just wait until Sophie Turner’s “Take a bow” article. That one should get interesting.
I’m obviously super late to this article but I have to agree with both Sophie and NCW in terms of their character endings. I saw Sansa’s comments to Sandor the same way as Sophie did and although I wasn’t entirely comfortable with how Jamie/Cersei went out the way NCW explains it makes sense. The only other reality would have seen Dany burn Cersei so dying with Jamie made sense but I didn’t like the way Euron bumped into Jamie at the secret entrance and they had the fight that just felt way too forced.
Hear, hear! Despite larely enjoying the final season I’ve not gone back to watch it again yet and I hardly read articles on here for a few months (for differing reasons) but I hope over time people appreciate this amazing show because I don’t believe it has an equal.
A couple of years ago there was speculation there would be a Jon Snow spin off set after GOT. It was dismissed at the time but along with Arya going West cannot be ruled out but you’d need someone like Bryan Cogman to run it in my opinion.
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