Peter Dinklage stands by Game of Thrones finale

Tyrion 806 Game of Thrones Season 8 King's Landing Lannister

Endings of popular stories are cursed to be argued about till the end of time–and there’s few as popular as Game of Thrones. Add to that volatile foundation a final season many deem as rushed and a decidedly confrontational finale that would be divisive in the best of cases, and you have the recipe for an ending for which the label “controversial” seems an understatement. Most of the cast and crew alike have been steadfast defenders of their final entry, however, and Peter Dinklage is the latest cast member to put his two cents in from the perspective of the man who portrayed one of the game’s main players for a decade.

Addressing the fan response to the final season, Dinklage tells The New Yorker that he didn’t really follow the controversy, but has thoughts about negative reactions to the ending nevertheless.

“Well, everybody’s always going to have an opinion, and that means an ownership,” he elaborates. “It’s like breaking up with somebody. They get upset. I can’t speak for everybody, but my feeling is they didn’t want it to end, so a lot of people got angry. I feel like what [the showrunners] Dave [Benioff] and Dan [Weiss] did was extraordinary. This happens. Monsters are created. And you don’t see it coming. We vote them into office. You look the other way. So for everybody to get upset because they loved a character so much and they had so much faith in that person—there were signposts all along the way for that character.”

According to the actor, Daenerys Targaryen’s infamous fall had to happen “because of what was happening all along. It added up to something. There are people who’ve named their children Khaleesi. You’ve just got to maybe wait till the series finale before you get that tattoo or name your golden retriever Daenerys! I can’t help you! I’m sorry. She went mad. She was driven to that, and she’s a victim as well in terms of how she was treated. She went through it, and she came out angry, as a lot of us do.”

As for the fate of his own character, Tyrion, Dinklage admits he did not expect him to survive. In fact, none of the cast did: “We were all nervous when we got the scripts.”

Looking back on Tyrion’s long and painful journey through Game of Thrones, Dinklage (thankfully) doesn’t see himself reflected on the character, saying “it’s pretty extreme things he went through. He killed his father and his girlfriend. I didn’t really progress along the same path as he did.” Nevertheless, he “did enjoy playing him” and says he “just loved Northern Ireland, where we shot it. It became my second home. So I miss that life. I miss all of that.”

170 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. On the serious note, people should look the shitshow that is happening with Star Wars E9.

      New director criticizing the old, actors as well. You don’t need to over analyse their faces and take their word out of context to see their true opinion.

      When you compare that to interviews with GoT cast memembers it’s huge difference. I known that there was this fake narrative pushed that they hate Benioff and Weiss and S8 but that was never really true.

        Quote  Reply

    2. mau,

      You bring up a really interesting point, and it is something I’ve wondered – to paraphrase Bran, 10 years from now, which will be looked upon more favorably – Game of Thrones Season 8, or The Last Jedi? I know it seems like and apples and oranges comparison, but these are two entries in widely beloved series that are easily the most controversial entries into said series.

        Quote  Reply

    3. Joseph Mobile,

      I don’t know but I think they have different problems. S8 has great story with problems in execution and TLJ has terrible story with problems in execution.

      S8 can be looked like Star Wars PT in future. Ofc it’s better in a lot of ways, but PT survived test of time because the story was strong enough even with problems in execution.

      With TLJ, E9 will completely retcon most of the biggest plot points so it will look even more pointless.

        Quote  Reply

    4. As he should! Every single person involved in making Game of Thrones – cast, crew, writers, directors, producers, extras, stuntmen, snow supervisors, the delightful lady who made the toasties, and all the way on down the list – poured their heart and soul into it throughout the entire series, and especially during the final season. They crafted a beautiful, fittingly bittersweet resolution to a once-in-a-lifetime show. Their incredible achievement is recognized by their peers and many fans (not always the loudest ones, but trust me, we’re out there). They have every reason to be proud!

        Quote  Reply

    5. mau:
      On the serious note, people should look the sh*tshow that is happening with Star Wars E9.

      New director criticizing the old, actors as well. You don’t need to over analyse their faces and take their word out of context to see their true opinion…

      I swore off Star Wars movies after the redundant, dreadful “The Force Awakens.” For me, it was a dumbed-down, beat-for-beat rip-off of the first Star Wars movie. Except for Daisy Ridley, I thought the whole thing s*cked.

      I’ve heard that George Lucas himself is disappointed with the storylines concocted by his successors after he relinquished control of the franchise.

      Out of curiosity, what is “Star Wars E9” and what is the “sh*tshow” happening with it? While I don’t plan on seeing the movie, I confess I’d like some affirmation that I made the right decision by bailing on the Star Wars retread factory.

      I remember being awed when I watched the original Star Wars (1977). Here we are, over forty years later, and the retread factory is still cranking out sequels, prequels and spinoffs? At some point the franchise’s diminishing rate of creative return dropped to 0 even if the diminishing rate of economic return still justified the studio’s decision to keep milking it – and keep pumping out SW-related merchandise.

      For f*ck’s sake, now there’s going to be a Baby Yoda? Is nothing sacred?

      (Related questions: Do they have sharks in space? 🦈 Can Jedis waterski?)

        Quote  Reply

    6. Thank you Peter! Agreed 100%. What Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss concocted for the final season (and the entire series), is nothing short of brilliant. Tyrion is one of my favorite characters in cinema history and it was an ending I’ll never forget. I’ll always be grateful.

        Quote  Reply

    7. mau,

      If they retcon

      Rey’s parentage

      I’ll be mad. That was the single smartest thing they did in TLJ. I know there is more to the story, but they need to reveal it in a way that doesn’t make

      Kylo a liar.

      Retcon everything else, I’m not bothered.

      Ten Bears,

      This is why I think you should watch TLJ, people didn’t like what they did with the mythology (never understood why tbh) and it wasn’t a retread in the same way TFA was. Personally, I think TLJ’s biggest flaw was that half of it was boring.

      Just in case you don’t know, Baby Yoda isn’t actually Baby Yoda, just a child of the same species.

        Quote  Reply

    8. Jenny,

      ”This is why I think you should watch TLJ, people didn’t like what they did with the mythology (never understood why tbh) and it wasn’t a retread in the same way TFA was. Personally, I think TLJ’s biggest flaw was that half of it was boring.

      Just in case you don’t know, Baby Yoda isn’t actually Baby Yoda, just a child of the same species.”

      ———
      1. Hmmm…. What you wrote about “The Last Jedi,” e.g., that some people “didn’t like what they did with the mythology,” and that you thought “half of it was boring,” makes me not want to watch it.

      2. After suffering through dancing Ewoks, Jar Jar Binks, and TFA’s supposedly “cute” R2D2 2.0, I’m not sure I could handle a Baby Yoda, even if he or she is not actually Yoda but rather “just child of the same species.” From a picture I saw online, “Baby Yoda” looks to me like a blatant merchandising ploy. (For me, the portrayal of Yoda was already perilously close to schlock with the whirling, twirling somersaulting Yoda in one of the earlier movies.)

      3. As I have not seen “The Last Jedi” and don’t plan to, I don’t know what’s going on with Rey’s parentage or why there’s concern about retconning it. Nor do I know what the deal is with Rey and Kylo Ren. My problem is that in TFA, Adam Driver came off more like Lena Dunham’s quirky boyfriend on “Girls” rather than some complex supervillain, and the Kylo-Han Solo patricide subplot of TFA felt contrived and silly.
      If cheesy, evil Kylo is going to be revealed as having a “good” side, or some kind of connection to Rey, that’ll just be a Luke-Darth Vader Redux. Either way, I’m not interested.

      (If I want to see a “redemption arc” or bad-good character evolution, I can rewatch the GoT storyline of Theon Greyjoy. Or Sandor Clegane. Or Hot Pie.)

      There are a finite number of books I can read and movies and TV shows I can watch in my lifetime. I guess I’ve become a bit apprehensive about investing further time in a movie franchise once it’s let me down like TFA did.

        Quote  Reply

    9. Ten Bears,

      You did promise you would though, if it was on TV, and there was nothing else in the world to do. You don’t have to like or anything, and I wouldn’t expect you to. People not liking things has never bothered me and I wouldn’t try to change your mind. For me the Rey/Luke/Kylo stuff was interesting in TLJ, and really the only relevant plot, hence the rest being boring.

      As for Kylo, well he was never a super villain, he thought he should be, but didn’t have it in him. If I have it right, he has been manipulated since he was a young child hearing voices in his head. This teaser will tell you all you need to know about that.

      SPOILER WARNING!

      https://twitter.com/kyberren/status/1205209361079046144

      Not to worry if you’re not interested, I’m just curious about your opinion, I enjoy a rant, I liked this one too lol

        Quote  Reply

    10. Tyrion would’ve made a great new Night King.

      Now that 3 eyed (Bloodraven) is the King and He has some serious magic power … maybe one day in 2030 winter will come again

        Quote  Reply

    11. “There are people who’ve named their children Khaleesi. You’ve just got to maybe wait till the series finale before you get that tattoo or name your golden retriever Daenerys! I can’t help you!”

      Boy Twitter was so mad at this, but I think it’s funny!

        Quote  Reply

    12. I’ve never been a big Star Wars fan (growing up, I was obsessed with Star Trek, which has a distinctly different vibe), so I’m completely out of the loop of what happens in that fandom other than having a vague awareness that they’re even more vocal than GoT fans. Having said that, I do enjoy the original trilogy. Of the new ones, though, TLJ is the only one I’d watch again; Saner Half and I saw it for the first time last week (!), and we both really enjoyed it. I have no idea what the controversies are about, and given that it’s not a universe I’m really invested in I’m not going to delve into them.

        Quote  Reply

    13. “You’ve just got to maybe wait till the series finale before you get that tattoo or name your golden retriever Daenerys! I can’t help you! I’m sorry. ”

      Well, I named my dog Daenerys, but she died of old age before Dany lost it! Thanks George!!!!

        Quote  Reply

    14. mau,

      I find it sad how you talk about sequel trilogy SW the same way others talk about GoT S8 – and I’m nowhere near as invested in SW as I am in GoT.

        Quote  Reply

    15. Jenny,

      ”You did promise you would though, if it was on TV, and there was nothing else in the world to do…”

      While I don’t recall making such a promise, it’s entirely possible I did. If so, I reserve the right to elect the Sansa Contingency Loophole and repudiate that promise whenever I feel like it. (Just kidding)

      Seriously though, I must have 200 hours of TV shows and movies recorded on my DVR that I have not gotten around to watching, I still want to binge-watch The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel (and perhaps His Dark Materials). and I know I’m going to want to watch Star Trek: Picard when it begins airing next month.

      I’ve only heard vague rumblings of discontent about The Last Jedi. and whatever the next installment is named. Do I give credence to internet armchair quarterbacks? Of course not. It’s just there are so many movies that have been recommended to me as “you gotta see it!”-type gems* – and none of the recent Star Wars installments are in that category.

      * For instance, I’ve been meaning to watch “The Babadook” starring Lady Crane – I mean Essie Davis. I haven’t gotten around to it. I also promised myself I’d try to watch the rest of “LaLa Land” (I couldn’t make it through the first few minutes of people jumping out of their cars on a crowded freeway and launching into a song and dance number. I know Emma Stone won an Oscar for her role…)

        Quote  Reply

    16. QueenofThrones:
      “You’ve just got to maybe wait till the series finale before you get that tattoo or name your golden retriever Daenerys! I can’t help you! I’m sorry. ”

      Well, I named my dog Daenerys, but she died of old age before Dany lost it! Thanks George!!!!

      After S8e1 I almost got my sister a puppy named “Cold Little Bitch.”

        Quote  Reply

    17. “All stories have to end at a point”, this I agree with whole-heartedly.

      Said multiple times that I never really had a problem with the contents of the ending outside of Sam unironically suggesting immediate democracy or his sledgehammered-in book series reference.

      If I had to re-do the ending and hit every single plot point that was hit IRL in the order they were hit, I’d have to do S8 around the Army of the Dead and S9 around King’s Landing. Main reason is to alleviate my main problem with what we’ve got: Give the big moments time to breathe before moving to the next one.

        Quote  Reply

    18. Wolfish,

      ”I’ve never been a big Star Wars fan (growing up, I was obsessed with Star Trek, which has a distinctly different vibe)…”

      Have you seen the two trailers for Star Trek: Picard? If you’re familiar with ST The Next Generation and ST Voyager, you’ll

      spot some familiar faces, including Data, Riker, Troi, and 7 of 9. I hope they bring back Q as a surprise special guest.

        Quote  Reply

    19. I love it when people say they love Northern Ireland. I know a lot joke about the weather etc etc, but it is a wonderful place. ❤

      I think Tyrion really did end up as, if not the real holder of power, certainly a co-ruler. Bran is the encyclopedia, Tyrion is the avid reader and interpreter of the encyclopedia. I think one of my favorite small moments of the season was when Tyrion pulled up a chair and asked Bran to tell him all about things. No one else took that opportunity (at least on-screen). I loved it.

      I really can’t imagine anyone having been able to play Tyrion other than Peter. One of the best parts of watching the show is discovering the ways that some actors improve the characters you’ve already read and care about. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    20. Ten Bears:
      Jenny,

      ”You did promise you would though, if it was on TV, and there was nothing else in the world to do…”

      While I don’t recall making such a promise, it’s entirely possible I did. If so, I reserve the right to elect the Sansa Contingency Loophole and repudiate that promise whenever I feel like it. (Just kidding)

      Seriously though, I must have 200 hours of TV shows and movies recorded on my DVR that I have not gotten around to watching,I still want to binge-watch The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel (and perhaps His Dark Materials). and I know I’m going to want to watch Star Trek: Picard when it begins airing next month.

      I’ve only heard vague rumblings of discontent about The Last Jedi. and whatever the next installment is named. Do I give credence to internet armchair quarterbacks? Of course not. It’s just there are so many movies that have been recommended to me as “you gotta see it!”-type gems* – and none of the recent Star Wars installments are in that category.

      * For instance, I’ve been meaning to watch “The Babadook” starring Lady Crane – I mean Essie Davis. I haven’t gotten around to it. I also promised myself I’d try to watch the rest of “LaLa Land” (I couldn’t make it through the first few minutes of people jumping out of their cars on a crowded freeway and launching into a song and dance number. I know Emma Stone won an Oscar for her role…)

      Haha! Oh god, the only thing scary about The Badonkadonk was the incredibly irritating hysterical child. And I love Essie Davis! I was so disappointed. But then, my goal in life is to find a movie that actually terrifies me, and that has yet to happen. 😁

      Also, although I seem to have lost interest in Star Wars (the original 3 were huge favourites when I was a kid), The Mandalorian IS worth checking out, especially as he’s played by our dear Pedro Pascal. Baby Yoda is ok, i always thought that character was a bit of a gremlin though. 😜

        Quote  Reply

    21. Thank you Mr. Dinklage, for defending your work. (Bonus points for this site illustrating it with the image of Tyrion surveying the blasted ruins of King’s Landing, still wearing the “Hand of the Queen” pin to show his unintentional complicity in the slaughter.)

      “What would you call the first ~30 minutes of 8×4, before the War for the Throne is even mentioned? Breathing.”

      For that matter, the first two episodes of the season had lots of “breathing,” including Jenny’s Song at the end.

        Quote  Reply

    22. mau,

      I read the headline and the first thing that came to mind was “how long until the “D&D” haters come out?” A: Not long.

      Ridiculous. Benioff and Weiss aren’t writing or even executive producing the movie.
      People can bash “D&D” and the final seasons of GoT all they want; that still doesn’t take away from their accomplishments in creating and shepherding the most successful series in television history. Geez! Have some perspective!

      Here’s the text of the Deadline.com article and the 3 comments:

      Deadline.com Dec. 12, 2019, 2:27 pm

      Game Of Thrones’ Duo David Benioff & D.B. Weiss Set HP Lovecraft Thriller Film At Warner Bros”
      by Mike Fleming, Jr.

      Game of Thrones creators David Benioff & D.B. Weiss have set at Warner Bros an untitled thriller inspired by the graphic novel Lovecraft. Set to write the script are Phil Hay & Matt Manfredi, the scribe team behind such films as Aeon Flux, Ride Along and the Karyn Kusama-directed The Invitation and Destroyer. Kusama will be exec producer.

      The filmmakers are keeping it close to the vest, but I’m told the movie asks a horrifying question: what if H.P. Lovecraft wasn’t making it up? What if the monsters he created are real? Also, the movie will be set in 1920 within the Cthulhu mythos. That’s all I got.

      Benioff & Weiss have been eyeing this project and have been in discussion with Warner Bros’ Courtenay Valenti and Toby Emmerich for several years, while they were consumed with the monumental task of translating the George RR Martin Game of Thrones novels into eight epic seasons. The duo subsequently signed a megadeal to create TV and film projects for Netflix in August, but the discussion on this movie predated that deal.

      ————-
      Deadline.com Comments (3)

      at 5:32 pm:
      “You boys were only as good as GRRM’s writing allowed, when you had to come with something original..you totally failed and sucked!”

      at 3:28 pm
      “Their careers should be dead. Why anyone gives them any work at this point is beyond me.”

      at 5:07 pm
      “For showrunning one of the most successful shows in history? You people are idiots.”

        Quote  Reply

    23. Pigeon:

      I think Tyrion really did end up as, if not the real holder of power, certainly a co-ruler. Bran is the encyclopedia, Tyrion is the avid reader and interpreter of the encyclopedia. I think one of my favorite small moments of the season was when Tyrion pulled up a chair and asked Bran to tell him all about things. No one else took that opportunity (at least on-screen). I loved it.

      I really can’t imagine anyone having been able to play Tyrion other than Peter. One of the best parts of watching the show is discovering the ways that some actors improve the characters you’ve already read and care about. 🙂

      While we’re on the subject of Peter Dinklage and Tyrion…
      One of my post-GoT pet projects is to choose each character’s best scene. For Tyrion, there were so many to consider, e.g., banishing Janos Slynt (“I’m not questioning your honor…I’m denying its existence” 😀); ferreting out Pycelle as Cersei’s spy; talking his way out of getting killed by Shaga and the Hill Tribes; “confessing” his crimes at his trial in the Vale; pre-Blackwater planning with Bronn; the Battle of the Blackwater (including his response to Joffrey’s threat to order him cut in half: “Then I’d be the quarter man. Just doesn’t have the same ring to it”; and his later speech to the KL defenders and leading the attack after Joffrey ran to his mommy); and in S2e1 strolling in whistling as he crashed the Small Council (and pissed off Cersei) with the news that he’d been designated Acting Hand.

      These were all worthy contenders. And yet, in my view the winner for Peter Dinklage/Tyrion’s Best Scene is…

      Tyrion ensnares Lancel, S2e4

        Quote  Reply

    24. Ten Bears,

      Off topic:
      I just got back from seeing Jumanji: The Next Level and was pleasantly surprised to see that Rory McCann was in it. I just thought you would like to know that.

        Quote  Reply

    25. Ten Bears:
      mau,

      I read the headline and the first thing that came to mind was “how long until the “D&D” haters come out?” A: Not long.

      ————-
      Deadline.com Comments (3)

      at 5:32 pm:
      “You boys were only as good as GRRM’s writing allowed, when you had to come with something original..you totally failed and sucked!”


      at 3:28 pm
      “Their careers should be dead. Why anyone gives them any work at this point is beyond me.”

      at 5:07 pm
      “For showrunning one of the most successful shows in history? You people are idiots.”

      The irony of those kind of lazy comments runs deep….well, shallow, actually. They don’t seem to even bother a Google search to see that both have “come up with something original” on many occasions. Derp.

        Quote  Reply

    26. Ten Bears,

      So many good moments. I’d probably still go with his speech at his trial, or the shared scene with Jorah sailing through Valyria. But then, maybe I wouldn’t pick at all, because there’s been quite the variety to choose from, with very different atmospheres!

        Quote  Reply

    27. Young Dragon:
      Ten Bears,

      Off topic:
      I just got back from seeing Jumanji: The Next Level and was pleasantly surprised to see that Rory McCann was in it. I just thought you would like to know that.

      Thanks for the Sandor news! I appreciate it. (Yes, you were right, I would like to know that.) I had no idea Rory McCann was in any upcoming movies. I figured he disappeared on his boat after GoT and was incommunicado in the middle of the ocean somewhere ever since.

      So, was “Jumanji: The Next Level” any good? I did a quick search and noticed it was directed by Jake Kasdan. I was aware he directed some (five) episodes of the TV series “Freaks and Geeks” (1999-2000), which has developed somewhat of a cult following

      FYI: Jake Kasdan’s very first movie – which he wrote and directed – was “Zero Effect” in 1998, when he was around 24 or 25.
      “Zero Effect” is among my Top 10 Favorite Movies of All Time. It stars Bill Pullman as Daryl Zero, “the world’s greatest detective;” Ben Stiller as his representative/assistant; Kim Dickens; and Ryan O’Neal. I think there are overt parallels to a Sherlock Holmes story, but “Zero Effect” feels really fresh and engrossing. Kim Dickens and Bill Pullman are excellent. I don’t want to spoil any of the story. I’d just recommend seeing it if you haven’t.

        Quote  Reply

    28. Ten Bears,

      If you liked Jumanji: Welcome to the Jungle, you would probably like this. It’s a similar formula but, while it retires some of the same jokes, I felt the vast majority of jokes were fresh.

        Quote  Reply

    29. I think one of my favorite small moments of the season was when Tyrion pulled up a chair and asked Bran to tell him all about things.

      one of my fav moments too; later he tells Jaime, yes I think we will live after all. Thats the only time that moment is referrenced, and I’d really love to have heard more about what was said. Ah well..

        Quote  Reply

    30. Young Dragon:
      Ten Bears,

      If you liked Jumanji: Welcome to the Jungle, you would probably like this. It’s a similar formula but, while it retires some of the same jokes, I felt the vast majority of jokes were fresh.

      I have not seen “Jumanji: Welcome to the Jungle.”
      I did see the original “Jumanji” (1995) with Robin Williams and Kirsten Dunst.

      From a quick search, I see that in “Jumanji: The Next Level,” Rory McCann plays “Jurgen the Brutal.”

      So much for my wishful thinking that Rory wouldn’t get typecast as a brute, and that his next project might be as the leading man in a lighthearted romcom. I mean, that guy can deliver a punchline, and he can play gruff on the outside with a tender heart on the inside.

      He’d be perfect for the romcom formula, e.g.: Uptight prissy girl is repulsed by uncouth foul-mouthed guy. He tells her to “f*ck off.” They detest each other… but they’re thrown together by happenstance, and before long he sees through her haughty veneer, and he shows that he’s really a big lovable puppy dog. They hook up, break up, but reunite at the end, kiss and make up, and live happily ever after. The End. 🐓🐓

      P.S. I also noticed that Deobia Oparei (Areo Hotah on Got) is in Jumanji: The Next Level as “Gromm.” Nice to see him getting work after Areo Hotah, Doran’s hulking “bodyguard,” dropped dead from a pen knife to the back thrown by a petite Sand Snake.

        Quote  Reply

    31. Ten Bears,

      💯 on Rory McCann continually being cast as an oaf or brute. Sheesh, you’d think someone would have figured it out a looonnnggg time ago, after those priceless Scott’s Porage Oats ads…

        Quote  Reply

    32. ash:
      I think one of my favorite small moments of the season was when Tyrion pulled up a chair and asked Bran to tell him all about things.

      one of my fav moments too; later he tells Jaime, yes I think we will live after all. Thats the only time that moment is referrenced, and I’d really love to have heard more about what was said. Ah well..

      Yes! It was a quiet moment that perhaps implied something that we (I) didn’t quite catch at the time…and you’re right, his sudden change of view of the future to Jaime did come up immediately after. I feel like everyone, including myself as a viewer, tended to get annoyed with Bran’s vague statements, when they may well have done better to just pull up the ol’ chair and ask him things straight to the point. He knows all, but needs the direction to pull from that vast knowledge (like when he concluded Jon was a “Sand”, only to have Sam correct him, at which point he clicked in.)

        Quote  Reply

    33. mau,

      It’s one of those things that depends on the execution, as long as she was ditched on Jakku, then I can live with any backstory. Just don’t make Kylo an intentional liar, they have never lied to each other before. I’ll spoiler this to be on the safe side,

      I personally like that anyone can be a hero, and bloodlines aren’t the be all and end all, that’s what the last scene in TLJ was all about, anyone can potentially be force sensitive. Obi-Wan was a nobody, as was everyone else in the prequels, but apparently that can’t be the case with Rey. I just don’t understand why she needs to be connected to somebody, I’ll reserve judgement on that.

      I’ve read the leaks, and the only thing that has me all ‘WTF this can’t be true’ is

      Kylo’s ending, are you telling me that the last Skywalker, the Skywalker of this trilogy, the Prince of Aldaraan is going to fall down a hole never to be seen again? Madness. I’m kind of tired of the whole redemption = death thing. Make him live on a prison planet, send him to his own island Luke style, but please not that. They had Leia say that she wants him back in TFA, are they really not going to fulfil that wish?

        Quote  Reply

    34. Jenny,

      Rey No one was always incredibly stupid to me. Why make no one a main hero in Skywalker saga? It would be like creating new Potter movie without Potter as main character.

      Anyone can be hero. In Mandalorian, in Rogue one and the rest. But not in Skywalker saga. Not in this family story. Make other Star Wars stories with “nobodies”. But not this one.

      Also killing Snoke was really stupid. But at least Palpatine is back so that is already retconed. And in new trailer there is huge reveal about relationship between Snoke and Palpatine.

      That spoiler about Kylo is no longer completely true. There are things that will happen after it but the conclusion will be the same.

        Quote  Reply

    35. Ten Bears,

      No, the beatles! That is one of the top scenes of GoT. Jamie and Tyrion discussing their fates while Tyrion is imprisoned. The beatles are an allegory for the small folk who are crushed for no reason when the lords play their games, but no lords are mentioned in the scene.

      Slynt is something though. In the books Sansa wishes for a hero to cut his head just like he cut off her father’s head. Tyrion frames Slynt and sends him to the Wall, and later Jon chops off his head. That’s complete story-telling.

        Quote  Reply

    36. mau,

      I think that’s the fundamental issue with TLJ, some of the decisions just didn’t sit well with people. I’d probably agree with you if Ben Solo didn’t exist, but he is the Skywalker of the trilogy and that is fine for me.

      Rey being nobody wouldn’t stop her adopting the Skywalker name at the end

      so its not necessary for her to be connected, but going back on that doesn’t ruin it for me, depends how they do it. I imagine this was JJ’s plan when he wrote TFA, all part of his mystery box.

      I didn’t mind the Snoke thing, particularly with the new info, it makes even more sense for him to go. They claim to have planned the Palps return all along, so he had to go at some point, perhaps JJ would have done it TROS rather than TLJ.

      I just looked at the updated leaks, it all seems believable to me, and thankfully that Kylo update makes a huge difference. I think I’ll like the movie but

      I still think Kylo dying is a cop out

      but it is what it is.

        Quote  Reply

    37. I totally agree. Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss did a brilliant job with Daenerys and Tyrions arc. It made absolutely sense and was perfectly written. They outdid themselves and I am thankful to Mr. Dinklage that he appreciates this magnificent season.

        Quote  Reply

    38. Thinking of franchises being past their best, I wish folk would let James Bond (who would be over 100 now if he were a real person) retire.

      Everyone’s entitled to an opinion and if people dislike how B&W ended GoT that is their right but I wish folk would be more gracious and bear in mind that those of us who were show watchers before we were book readers probably wouldn’t have opened the books without exposure to the show. B&W never signed up to write original material to be fair. It’s petty for folk to wish for B&W never to get any projects again*.

      I only ever saw the first two Star Wars films many years ago so can’t judge the modern episodes of the saga.

      *My comment there applies to the comments under the linked article about them getting “Lovecraft” rather than anything on this thread.

        Quote  Reply

    39. Pigeon:
      Ten Bears,

      Wolfish,

      *clears throat*

      “THE BOOK GROUP”, PEOPLE!!!!!! Seriously, he was the handsome devil that had the girls in a dither! ❤🐶

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_Group

      I’d heard about “The Book Group.” It’s never on TV where I am. Lemme see if I can find it elsewhere.

      However, until I read the wikipedia page you linked, I didn’t realize there was another indirect link to GoT:

      Michelle Gomez co-stars with Rory McCann in “The Book Group.” She also plays “Missy” (the female version of the antagonist The Master) in Dr. Who.
      In the season 9 finale of Dr. Who, Ashildr/Lady Me (Maisie Williams) clues in the Doctor that Missy is likely responsible for the quandary he’s in:

      Dr. Who S9e12 “Hell Bent” (at 2:05 – 2:20):

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw7phZ4tOQk

      … And here’s a clip of Michelle Gomez as Missy:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scz5EEWUcxo

      Oh, before I forget:
      #LastWomanStanding
      – in S8 on GoT + in the universe on Dr. Who
      👸🏻

        Quote  Reply

    40. Dame of Mercia: Thinking of franchises being past their best, I wish folk would let James Bond (who would be over 100 now if he were a real person) retire.

      I can’t speak for anyone else, but I personally enjoy the Daniel Craig James Bond movies and have no desire to see James Bond retire.

      I wasn’t a big fan of Quantum of Solace and I thought that Spectre started off good, but got more boring as the movie progressed. I really like Casino Royale and Skyfall though.

        Quote  Reply

    41. Ten Bears,

      You did indeed promise, I caught you at a weak moment, but you did it in a way that made it clear that it would never happen lol.

      I loved the Babadook, but omg that child, that child who should inspire sympathy drove me nuts. The themes of the Babadook are very important for me, I was going through similar things when it was released and it was very emotional for me. It hit me quite hard I must say. Highly recommend that one.

      With HDM, I am reluctant to recommend it tbh, I’d pay more attention to Tron’s opinion as he hasn’t read the books. I watch it knowing things, and I find myself wondering if they have explained things well enough. It is full of interesting concepts, but it is much easier to convey these things in a book, in a TV show, it leads to a lot of expositional dialogue. I think they have avoided it as much as possible, which is why I wonder if they have got the point across. The books are fab, and a bit mad.

      And watch Succession if you haven’t, my Christmas gift to you.

        Quote  Reply

    42. Mr Derp: I can’t speak for anyone else, but I personally enjoy the Daniel Craig James Bond movies and have no desire to see James Bond retire.

      I wasn’t a big fan of Quantum of Solace and I thought that Spectre started off good, but got more boring as the movie progressed.I really like Casino Royale and Skyfall though.

      I think other franchises took over the spy genre. I’m thinking of Jason Bourne and Mission Impossible as two examples. I quite enjoyed our friend Gendry (Joe Dempsie) in Deep State for a spy drama for the 2020’s. I haven’t felt like watching the Bond franchise in many years. I am looking forward to a new season of Deep State though.

      I do love the comedy spy genre also. Here are my top 3 picks for comedy spy genre.

      1) Keeping up with the Joneses
      Zach Galifianakis and Isla Fisher are just fantastic. I never tire of this one. Nothing like a little indoor skydiving for some male bonding.

      2) Knight and Day
      There’s something about Tom Cruise and Cameron Diaz together that makes this work. I loved the characters and great action too.

      3) The Spy Who Dumped Me
      Mila Kunis and Kate McKinnon star in this one. I don’t think this got great reviews, but it was lots of fun. I may have to watch this again soon.

        Quote  Reply

    43. Jenny:
      Ten Bears,

      And watch Succession if you haven’t, my Christmas gift to you.

      Agreed. I recently finished binging it and it is brilliant. Also, Prime Video just dropped the new season of The Expanse! Brilliant show.

        Quote  Reply

    44. Tron79,

      ”1) Keeping up with the Joneses
      Zach Galifianakis and Isla Fisher are just fantastic. I never tire of this one. Nothing like a little indoor skydiving for some male bonding.”

      Isla Fisher was fabulous as always. Her scenes with Gal Gadot… 😍
      Isla Fisher was the best thing about Wedding Crashers too.

        Quote  Reply

    45. Tron79,

      Yea, there’s definitely more options in the spy genre now. I don’t know that I’d say James Bond has taken a back seat to the Bourne or MI franchises though. Just different options.

      I think “No Time To Die” is a good time for Craig to finish his run as Bond, though. He’s been awesome, but can’t do it forever, unless we want a geriatric Bond living in a retirement home trying to solve mysteries of who soiled their trousers.

      I haven’t seen “Knives Out” yet, but I heard Craig is fantastic in it.

        Quote  Reply

    46. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      ”1) Keeping up with the Joneses
      Zach Galifianakis and Isla Fisher are just fantastic. I never tire of this one. Nothing like a little indoor skydiving for some male bonding.”

      Isla Fisher was fabulous as always. Her scenes with Gal Gadot… 😍Isla Fisher was the best thing about Wedding Crashers too.

      Isla Fisher…man oh man. That woman is fire 🔥

        Quote  Reply

    47. Efi,

      No, the beatles! That is one of the top scenes of GoT. Jamie and Tyrion discussing their fates while Tyrion is imprisoned. The beatles are an allegory for the small folk who are crushed for no reason when the lords play their games, but no lords are mentioned in the scene.

      which I thought was referenced when Tyrion discovered the bodies of his siblings, and he bangs bricks (granted he is moving them, but banging them made me think of that scene)

        Quote  Reply

    48. Efi:
      Ten Bears,

      No, the beatles! That is one of the top scenes of GoT. Jamie and Tyrion discussing their fates while Tyrion is imprisoned. The beatles are an allegory for the small folk who are crushed for no reason when the lords play their games, but no lords are mentioned in the scene.
      ***

      I for one also liked Tyrion’s Orson and beetles story, especially the part when Tyrion said (not verbatim) watching Orson was like trying to read a page of a book written in a language he didn’t understand: there was something going on in Orson’s head but he couldn’t figure out what it was.

      Also: That “high thread count” scene between Tyrion and Jaime in Tyrion’s cell is part of what I consider a package of high quality scenes:
      • Bronn visits Tyrion in cell;
      • Jaime visits Tyrion in cell;
      • Pod visits Tyrion in cell; and
      • Oberyn visits Tyrion in cell. (“I will be your champion.”)

      In retrospect, knowing now what we know about Dany’s rage against the “smallfolk” of KL, that story about Orson exterminating thousands of beetles and Tyrion’s nightmares about it take on a little more resonance.
      I wonder if inclusion of the Orson story was deliberate on the part of the showrunners?

        Quote  Reply

    49. ash:
      Efi,

      No, the beatles! That is one of the top scenes of GoT. Jamie and Tyrion discussing their fates while Tyrion is imprisoned. The beatles are an allegory for the small folk who are crushed for no reason when the lords play their games, but no lords are mentioned in the scene.

      which I thought was referenced when Tyrion discovered the bodies of his siblings, and he bangs bricks (granted he is moving them, but banging them made me think of that scene)

      I had no idea John, Paul, George, and Ringo made a guest appearance on GoT! The Lord of Light even resurrected John Lennon for the occasion? Damn, I don’t know how I missed that episode 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    50. Efi,

      Pure luck. GRRM originally had Jon hanging Slynt. Fans at a reading told GRRM that Jon would never do that. He went back and rewrote that chapter to change it to beheading.

        Quote  Reply

    51. Stew:
      Efi,

      Pure luck.GRRM originally had Jon hanging Slynt.Fans at a reading told GRRM that Jon would never do that.He went back and rewrote that chapter to change it to beheading.

      Jon hung the mutineers though, so he apparently would and does do that. At least, according to the show.

        Quote  Reply

    52. Mr Derp,

      I wasn’t referencing Jon on the show. He was referring to the books. Saying how it was great story telling when it was pure luck that it ended the way I did. But he did technically swing the sword to cut the rope. But you like to argue everything just to argue.

        Quote  Reply

    53. Stew,

      No, Jon was going to have his men hang Slynt, which was out of character and goes against Ned’s code. “The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword” simply means that the one who passes the sentence should do the deed himself, no matter the method of execution.

        Quote  Reply

    54. Young Dragon,

      Yup I understand that. In the original chapter for the book GRRM had him hanging him. The fans told him at the reading of the sample chapter that Ned wouldn’t never teach Jon that. So GRRM went back and edited the chapter. So I was saying GRRM lucked into that as it was unintentional that Sanaa’s comment came back and means anything. But I get GRRM is perfect and D and D are idiots

        Quote  Reply

    55. Mr Derp:
      Tron79,

      Yea, there’s definitely more options in the spy genre now.I don’t know that I’d say James Bond has taken a back seat to the Bourne or MI franchises though.Just different options.

      I think “No Time To Die” is a good time for Craig to finish his run as Bond, though.He’s been awesome, but can’t do it forever, unless we want a geriatric Bond living in a retirement home trying to solve mysteries of who soiled their trousers.

      I haven’t seen “Knives Out” yet, but I heard Craig is fantastic in it.

      Yes, I might watch that if Bond goes to the retirement home. Grumpy Old Bond or Bingo Royale.

        Quote  Reply

    56. ash,

      “which I thought was referenced when Tyrion discovered the bodies of his siblings, and he bangs bricks (granted he is moving them, but banging them made me think of that scene)”

      Mmmm, don’t know. Since I studied history and archaeology my thought was “oh, good, the archaeologists won’t have a tough time discovering that! Piece of cake!”

        Quote  Reply

    57. Stew,

      I don’t know if that happened since it would have been many, many years ago, but I do not doubt that it’s true.
      However, that’s exactly the job that editors do. They improve the text. If the audience took up that role, then good for them. They’re smart. It makes perfect story-telling, linear and teleological.

      But Martin kept the hanging part. I don’t know why that is and I don’t think there’s anything in the chapter to indicate why Jon changed his mind. He just decided, ok, I’ll take his head instead, which is messier, and scarier, lots of blood.

        Quote  Reply

    58. Mr Derp: Isla Fisher…man oh man.That woman is fire

      Yes, Isla really is on fire, and funny too! As Ten Bears said, she stole the screen in Wedding Crashers too.

      Here are a few GOT actors who appeared in Bond movies…
      (I can’t say I memorized all these… I searched to make sure, but there are pretty many!)

      Max von Sydow….. Blofeld Never Say Never Again

      Sean Bean….Janus…Alec Trevelyan in Goldeneye

      Diana Rigg…Teresa “Tracy” Draco di Vicenzo On Her Majesty’s Secret Service

      Charles Dance….Claus For Your Eyes Only

      Jonathan Pryce Elliot Carver Tomorrow Never Dies

      Julian Glover (Grand Maester Pycelle) Aristotle “Ari” Kristatos
      For Your Eyes Only

      Patrick Malahide (Balon Greyjoy) ………Lachaise….The World Is Not Enough

      Tobias Menzies (Edmure Tully) ……Villiers Casino Royale

      Oona Chaplin (Talisa Stark) Perla de las Dunas hotel receptionist
      Quantum Of Solace

        Quote  Reply

    59. Efi: But Martin kept the hanging part. I don’t know why that is and I don’t think there’s anything in the chapter to indicate why Jon changed his mind. He just decided, ok, I’ll take his head instead, which is messier, and scarier, lots of blood.

      As the chapter is written, it didn’t seem to be about what is messier, scarier, or what produced more blood. Jon intended to have him hanged but changes his mind about that, thinking, “This is wrong.” I think Jon just decided he needed to do it himself.

      “If the boy thinks that he can frighten me, he is mistaken,” they heard Lord Janos said. “He would not dare to hang me. Janos Slynt has friends, important friends, you’ll see…” The wind whipped away the rest of his words.

      This is wrong, Jon thought. “Stop.”

      Emmett turned back, frowning. “My lord?”

      “I will not hang him,” said Jon. “Bring him here.”

      “Oh, Seven save us,” he heard Bowen Marsh cry out.

      The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, “Edd, fetch me a block,” and unsheathed Longclaw.

      “By the time a suitable chopping block was found, Lord Janos had retreated into the winch cage, but Iron Emmett went in after him and dragged him out. “No,” Slynt cried, as Emmett half-shoved and half-pulled him across the yard. “Unhand me… you cannot… when Tywin Lannister hears of this, you will all rue—”

      It seems GRRM did intend for Jon to hang Janos originally (a fan report on westeros.org dated 2008 from a 2008 fan convention, Technicon, reports what GRRM originally read from the ADWD Jon chapter. This poster’s report includes Jon hanging Janos Slynt — source)

        Quote  Reply

    60. I love Peter, but he’s totally out of touch with the fandom if he thinks people were pissed just because Dany ended up as a ‘bad’ person. There were a LOT of reasons people were unhappy with the final season.

      He is making it sound so very simple. This is not a case of people being unhappy that their favorite character didn’t end up the way they wanted.

      The writing of the final season was very very bad, and it is obvious that this happened because they wanted to rush through the final part of the ASoIaF story. That is why people blamed D&D and it is still why they blame them.

      As a huge fan of the novels and the show, the final season left me quite disappointed. I still love the show as a whole, but that final season will forever leave a bitter taste in my mouth.

      Now, I look to the future, to George’s last two books and to the spinoff series. I hope they will eventually let me forgive D&D’s choice to rush the ending of one of the best fictional stories ever made.

        Quote  Reply

    61. Zalos,

      8 seasons and 73 episodes is not rushed. In fact, that’s around the number of episodes D&D have been shooting for for years. What exactly was rushed about it? It wasn’t the war against the dead, as that had been properly set up. It wasn’t the war against Cersei, as that had properly been set up. It wasn’t Dany’s turn, as that had been properly set up. The only thing I wish was set up a little more is Bran becoming king, but that’s about it.

        Quote  Reply

    62. Ten Bears,

      Strange question but what are they going to do with the project if not writing or producing?

      And true, those guys are idiots, I’m very excited to see what they do with this story.

      And comments like not as good as GRRM (even when I’m on the camp that GRRM is the better writter) is just ridiculous. My favorite movies are the Lord of the Rings. But Peter Jackson doesn’t come close to the writing of Tolkien, but still the movies are amazing. And in the end it doesn’t matter who is the best, if you only settle for the best people would only watch 1 serie/movie or read one book in their lifetime, as long as it’s enjoyable and good enough it doesn’t matter.

      Jack Bauer 24,

      Question, I heard a lot about this show, but I’m currently not into a show that still has a couple of seasons left before closing, I rather bingwatch a show right now. How many seasons does this show still have?

        Quote  Reply

    63. About Peter’s statement. He seems to misread a big portion of the fans who didn’t like season 8. He talks about that it’s all about Dany’s turn and that people didn’t like that, and that they named their children or dogs Dany or Khaleesi. But many didn’t like the ending even when they are saying that they saw show-dany being evil from the beginning. And when I look at the ones who criticize season 8 (criticize not irrational hating like some others do), it comes down to:
      – Rushed Army of the dead storyline.
      – Rushed Cersei storyline.
      – Rushed ending.
      – Bronn’s detour.
      – Bran being king not being set up right, even when people liked it.
      – Do I miss something?

      Most of the criticizing on this site is also about that it was rushed not the plot itself. And I think Peter and other’s who worked on the show need to see that too, that not all bash the show because they didn’t get what they want (even when they are out there), it’s more how we got what we got.

      Same with Dany’s turn. We don’t live in a age anymore where people watch a show 1 time and where the focus needs to be the surprise factor. We live in a time where people rewatch and rewatch, that means that we want scenes that not focus on the surprise but on the path to it. Same with Dany, many fans want with a rewatch to see the moment when all the slips happen after Missandei dies, her decline showing from beginning to end there. Showing how she got from Angry walking away from Cersei towards the mess she is in at the beginning of episode 5. Those scenes are better with rewatch when suprise scenes just fade away. And especially after many shows that show those declines with every step (Breaking bad for instance) we wanted that to see here too.

      Still I love all the seasons (but not all equal)

      Young Dragon,

      Well even Daniel Portman stated that the season was rushed and that it needed at least a fully fleshed out 10 episode season. And he worked on it, he didn’t care that “his employers” would not hire him anymore after he said that, he just stated his mind (Which for me showing he is honest, he won’t go after the “Always back up the one who pay you”). The thing that was rushed was the war against the dead, we had a big cliffhanger with them, and the only thing we got was one big battle, I know it sounds spoiled, only thing we got, but it feels empty. It was build up for 7 seasons that once the wall falls, horror will befall on westeros. Then we got the cliff of season 7 with the notion: next season this bloodbath will go to westeros, nobody is safe anymore. And then we get one episode with the dead.
      Same with Cersei, her storyline was set up in the last 30 minutes of episode 4. And the next it was gone. Then we got Dany as the end villain. And in 30 minutes she was gone. We got 3 different villains in one season to deal with which all rise and got defeated pretty fast. That’s what was rushed. Even when I still agree that there was no chance that Dany would outlive that long after what she did. (And when I say, that Dany rose as the villain, I know she was already dark in the show from the beginning but episode 5 made the big statement: Here is the real villain of the story.)

      But still I’m happy what we got.

        Quote  Reply

    64. (*Attempts to steer thread away from “properly set up” vs. “rushed” debate. Anticipates charge of shameless Arya thread derailment.*)

      Semi-Off Topic:
      So I went to an office holiday party luncheon yesterday. The 13-mile drive getting there took about thirty minutes. However, for no apparent reason, traffic sucked all the way home and the 13-mile return trip took an hour and a half.

      As I was getting onto an “expressway” that looked more like a parking lot, rather than stew and curse I decided to queue up a video on my cell phone.

      This compilation of all Sandor & Arya scene’s from S3e2 through S8e5 is one hour and thirteen minutes long. For the most part, I only listened to the audio. Still, it made the drive home bearable – and reminded me once again not only how br_____nt all of the Sandor-Arya scenes were, but that the showrunners did justice to their storyline.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lFU60FqISo

      P.S. While I don’t vouch for its completeness, I think the video’s got all of their scenes starting with S3 Sandor recognizing Arya (“What in Seven Hells are you doing with the Stark bitch?”) through S8e5 (Arya: “Sandor!… Thank you.”)

        Quote  Reply

    65. kevin1989,

      ”Strange question but what are they going to do with the project if not writing or producing?

      That’s a good question! F*ck if I know. 🤔
      I can only speculate that Benioff and Weiss secured the rights to develop the Lovecraft novel into a movie a long time ago, and cannot now take a hands-on role due to other commitments. I’m basing this rank speculation on the following portion of the article:

      Benioff & Weiss have been eyeing this project and have been in discussion with Warner Bros’ Courtenay Valenti and Toby Emmerich for several years, while they were consumed with the monumental task of translating the George RR Martin Game of Thrones novels into eight epic seasons. The duo subsequently signed a megadeal to create TV and film projects for Netflix in August, but the discussion on this movie predated that deal.

        Quote  Reply

    66. kevin1989,

      • First off, I think the distinction you made between hating and criticizing can’t be emphasized enough. I get fed up with wannabe screenwriters’ name-calling (e.g., “D&D are hacks!”; “Dumb & Dumberer lazy writing”). On the other hand, it’s interesting to read cogent analysis by viewers of what worked and what went wrong in their view.

      • Another thing you touched on (and excuse my baseball metaphors): Sure it would have been nice if every single one of the 73 episodes had been a home run. That’s unrealistic. And any disappointment that the show may have whiffed on a few episodes in the final seasons ought to be tempered by appreciation for all of the achievements along the way. If anything, the show set a high bar for itself, which made its strikeouts and errors more conspicuous.

      • You wrote:

      ”… The thing that was rushed was the war against the dead, we had a big cliffhanger with them, and the only thing we got was one big battle, I know it sounds spoiled, only thing we got, but it feels empty. It was build up for 7 seasons that once the wall falls, horror will befall on westeros. Then we got the cliff of season 7 with the notion: next season this bloodbath will go to westeros, nobody is safe anymore. And then we get one episode with the dead.
      Same with Cersei, her storyline was set up in the last 30 minutes of episode 4. And the next it was gone. Then we got Dany as the end villain. And in 30 minutes she was gone. We got 3 different villains in one season to deal with which all rise and got defeated pretty fast. That’s what was rushed. Even when I still agree that there was no chance that Dany would outlive that long after what she did. (And when I say, that Dany rose as the villain, I know she was already dark in the show from the beginning but episode 5 made the big statement: Here is the real villain of the story.)”

      Yeah, that’s how it was perceived because all three “villains” had to be dispatched within an abridged, six-episode final season.
      I have to admit I got fooled by the one-and-done defeat of the WWs in a “Long Night” that lasted maybe a couple of hours (and nowhere near an entire generation).
      Like you, I really thought the show, e.g., with the cliffhanger of Season 7, had set up the “notion [that] next season this bloodbath will go to westeros, nobody is safe anymore. And then we get one episode with the Dead.”

      I was sure it could and would play out differently. Here’s how…

      (to be cont.)

        Quote  Reply

    67. kevin1989,

      “Oh, so and so is the real villain of the story.”

      That’s such a 2D thing to say about a story like GoT, that Dany or Cersei was the real villain/”final boss”. Sounds like some video game or other conventional, simpler fantasy story.

      Speaking of other fantasy stories, let’s look at Sauron’s War of the Ring:
      1) He attacked Osgiliath, and won.
      2) Attacked Minas Tirith, and got routed.
      3) Got attacked at the Black Gate, and got pranked and lured in so hard he died.

      All that buildup across two books and two movies, “he will have dominion over all life on this Earth, even unto the ending of the world”… for one moderate victory, and two big battles, only one of which was focused on much, and the other was just a diversion. I guess Sauron’s demise was hella rushed, too?

      True or false?: Winterfell was the last possible place the living could have held off the dead, so Winterfell had to be the final battle, or else ~95% of our main characters would have died and the NK would’ve have bodybagged the rest of Westeros/the world EZ.

        Quote  Reply

    68. Farimer123,

      ”True or false?: Winterfell was the last possible place the living could have held off the dead, so Winterfell had to be the final battle, or else ~95% of our main characters would have died and the NK would’ve have bodybagged the rest of Westeros/the world EZ.”

      False.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Pigeon,

      NI really is a wonderful place. I’ve visited there (from US) twice in the last 3 years. Belfast and the whole of NI is stunning. Warm and friendly people. If you are a fan of GOT its worth the money to visit. You ARE in Westeros. The locations are pretty much just like in the the show. After visiting and then binging the whole GOT series, I got a whole different experience because I stood in those places where those characters stood. It’s kinda surreal. If you take a tour, the guides are usually background actors or “stand ins” for the main actors. It’s quite fun.

      That said, I agree with Peter. I would have loved more seasons but I also understand the constrains of a TV show adaptation of this magnitude over time. I’m OK with what we got, even if it wasn’t as long as I wanted. I love the story and where the characters ended up.

      I’m holding off on my “baby Yoda” tattoo until I know whether or not he becomes a villain or dies tragically as a sacrifice for the greater good or lives happily ever after with the Ewoks on Endor.

      Fellow fans, save up to go to Northern Ireland. You won’t regret it.

        Quote  Reply

    70. Ten Bears,

      You are aware that if the NK had taken Winterfell, his army would have added several hundreds of thousands of Northern civilians to its ranks? There’s no way them or any of Dany’s/Jon’s armies could’ve fled south for long in the thick of winter before being overtaken by an undead army with infinite stamina. Please tell me: which southern army or stronghold would have had a snowball’s chance in hell at defeating an undead army around 1M strong?

      Oh, and bonus: Bran wouldn’t have been able to escape, so the NK would’ve killed him, and with the 3ER gone, the NK would have zero need to expose himself ever again. He’d just sit pretty atop his dragon in the clouds while his soldiers and lieutenants below do all the busy work of annihilating humanity.

        Quote  Reply

    71. kevin1989,

      No, there have been several battles with the army of the dead. It was built up for 6 seasons and culminated in the greatest battle in film history, complete with Ice Zombies, dragons, a tree wizard, and a fire witch. There was nothing rushed about it. The Cersei and Danerys conflict was built up during season 7, so that wasn’t rushed, and Danerys has been built up for 8 seasons, so that wasn’t rushed either.

        Quote  Reply

    72. Stew:
      Mr Derp,

      I wasn’t referencing Jon on the show.He was referring to the books.Saying how it was great story telling when it was pure luck that it ended the way I did.But he did technically swing the sword to cut the rope. But you like to argue everything just to argue.

      Awww, it appears I hurt your wittle feewings somehow. I appreciate you letting me know how sensitive you are when it comes to a fictional story though, so I can stop wasting my time and happily spend it conversing with others 🙂 Thanks!

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    73. Farimer123,

      Before I respond to the first part of your reply, allow me to address your secondary point (“bonus”):

      ”Oh, and bonus: Bran wouldn’t have been able to escape, so the NK would’ve killed him, and with the 3ER gone, the NK would have zero need to expose himself ever again. He’d just sit pretty atop his dragon in the clouds while his soldiers and lieutenants below do all the busy work of annihilating humanity.”

      1. NK had no need to expose himself to begin with. Any one of his lieutenants or wights could’ve taken out a crippled kid in a wheelchair.
      2. The pretext for targeting Bran (and the Bran Bait Plan) made little sense: Memories? Stories? WTF? Who cares?
      3. NK would never go anywhere near a battle zone if he could be vanquished, and his entire 100,000-strong army destroyed, by an errant DG tipped arrow, a tossed DG spear, a slash with a Valyrian steel sword (as he’d already seen before at Hardhome), a 99 mph DG spiked ball flail thrown at the horned f*cker by Cy Young Award-winning hurler Sandor Clegane, … or some other event in the fog of war, like a diminutive but lethal girl sneaking up on him and pulling off a nifty hand-to-hand VS dagger flip.
      4. The one-and-done defeat of the AotD required a dumbed-down NK to commit an inexplicable tactical blunder, e.g., expose himself for no good reason.

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    74. Mr Derp: I had no idea John, Paul, George, and Ringo made a guest appearance on GoT!The Lord of Light even resurrected John Lennon for the occasion?Damn, I don’t know how I missed that episode 🙂

      You didn’t notice “Here Comes the Sun” playing in the background at the end of Episode 3 as Melisandre takes off her ruby choker, walks off and crumbles to the ground?

      🎼 ”Little darling, it’s been a long cold lonely winter. Little darling, it seems like years since it’s been here. Here comes the sun, here comes the sun, and I say, it’s alright.”🎶

      🌅

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    75. Ten Bears,

      ‘Thanks, I though I missed something with reading it.

      Ten Bears,

      I really dislike those haters, I have no problem if some criticize the writing of GoT, for everyone their own opinion. But getting personal to D&D I despise. Especially those nicknames they give them.

      Farimer123,

      huh, I never said: “Oh, so and so is the real villain of the story.”

      There’s a huge difference with the story of LotR and GoT. With GoT the big notion was made for 7 seasons about who the WW were, that they are the treat and the focus. That whole story was build around the wall and that that is the only thing keeping them out. With LotR the focus was never Sauron. It was never about defeating Sauron, yes the movie ends with it but that’s not how we are introduced to the story of LotR, there was no set-up made about a big battle with Sauron himself and the humans/elves etc. There was no big baddie like the NK or Voldemort. What we are introduced to is the ring itself, the ring needs to be destroyed and we destroy Sauron, the way to destroy the big evil was introduced in the first movie and only got done in the last (compare that too giving how to defeat the NK in 8×02 and it’s done in 8×03), the whole focus of the movies was the ring and how it effects people, the battle of Minas Tirith was never about “defeating the enemy”, because we knew that the defeat would only occur by the defeat of the ring. We saw in the movie and books how the ring effected frodo, sam, Aragorn, Boromir etc.
      The premise of both stories was different, LotR never set up something bigger than it was in the end, it never give the viewers a notion that we will get a big fight with Sauron and Aragorn for instance, what it states in movie 1 is was we get: Defeat the ring, defeat Sauron. Yes we got the vision of: If you fail Frodo Beggins this will happen to the shire… We knew there that we would never see that happen if Frodo succeeds, because that only would happen if Frodo would fail, and we never saw Frodo fail in the movie with the ring, in fact the ring got destroyed. We knew that we would get either one of them not both. So all the guns that they hung were fired in the end.
      To go back to GoT they did almost the same thing, we got from the first season the big choice: If the wall stands we are safe, if it falls we aren’t. We knew that either one of the choices would be chosen once that gun has fired. Either the WW got defeated before the wall got down, or the wall goes down and we got the apocalypse. They choose the last one, they fire the gun towards the apocalypse side. All that we were warned to since the first season has come true, death is coming in Westeros. But in the end it was not what they set-up, and it diminish the cliffhanger. And that’s something shows should never do, you should never let the audience feel that they got less than what they expected and you set up. You always should either give what you set-up or even up the game to something more than you set up. It’s a bit like you get from christmas en big wrapped box of 2x2x2 meters, you see it lying under the christmas tree for weeks and when you open it it only contained 1 small candybar. That’s what many people felled.

      As for defeating the WW, I think you’re wrong there, yes if you look at it simply, WF was the only way possible where the WW could be stopped. But this series was never set up as the same-old-same-old show that we got before, where the enemy was defeated in something that has done before 1 army vs the next. It was set-up that storylines would be wrapped up in something smart and never done before. So it is not out of option that the writers (GRRM, D&D) could come up with exactly that. Not defeating the WW in a battle fashion, but in a smart way that we never though of.

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    76. Young Dragon,

      The WW as a treat was build up. What we saw pre-season 8 was: “This will happen if the wall fails”, it was not fighting the WW it was a notion about the destruction the WW bring, it build the enemy. The season 7 cliff changed the game: “Now the wall is done, what we have prepared you for once the wall is done, will happen now.” and then season 8 came and the WW were more scary and a danger pre-“the fall of the wall” than after. And if you have a last battle of an enemy and you don’t feel “Danger” for the main-characters, something is off.
      Compare it too HP. Book 1 till 4 give us a notion of the danger of Voldemort. Yes we have battled him 2 times in the first 2 books in a sense. And in book 4 we saw where he was capable off. Book 4/movie 4. Ends with Voldemort resurrected. With the assessment you made it was ok for Rowling to kill Voldemort in the fifth book, because we were battling him all along since the first book. No it is not, because the battle changed and upped after book 4. It ended in a cliffhanger that the real war (Hey that’s how Jon state the WW treat) has began. And instead of killing Voldemort in book 5 she did his defeat in another 3 books, because the kind of battle against Voldemort changed after book 4, his resurrection (wall coming down), the enemy has been made more dangerous meaning that you build further on it not end it with the second moment you see that character again. Book 5 showed us the extend of the danger of his return, book 6 his origins and how to defeat him, and book 7 his defeat (which was split in two movies for a reason).

      As for Dany, yes I agree she was set-up to be the villain in the show since season 2. But did we have time to progress it once we finally arrived there? No, she was outed as the villain and 30 minutes later she was death. (which I think was the only way this could play out else it would be pretty stupid to let her live after what she has done, with Jon, Arya etc being able to get close to her.

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    77. kevin1989,

      Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps the point of the White Walker storyline was to stop a true Long Night from happening? We’re not going to get a true Long Night in the books either. There’s simply not enough time and the White Walkers are still simply a footnote. One battle was all there ever was going to be. A full tactical retreat wouldn’t have been realistically possible. And what do you mean we weren’t concerned about the main characters dying? People here were terrified. If I remember, Ten Bears even refused to watch the episode until people assured her that Arya survived. And I already explained to you how I was on the edge of my seat for the entire episode, especially the last ten minutes, and for good reason. We lost quite a few great characters that episode.

      You can’t compare GOT to HP. In HP, Voldemort was the only storyline. In season 8 of GOT, there were two, one just as important as the other. The White Walkers were simply defeated first.

      Yes, we had plenty of time to process it. We processed it as Danerys was burning King’s Landing. We processed it as Tyrion and Jon walked the streets of King’s Landing. We processed it during Dany’s victory speech. We processed it as Tyrion quit as Hand. We processed it as Tyrion conversed with Jon in his cell. We processed it all the way up to Jon putting a knife in Dany’s heart.

      Sorry, but you didn’t explain why any of these were rushed. You simply stated why you wished they spent more time on these storylines, which is a perfectly fair criticism for you to have, but it’s not the same thing as it being rushed.

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    78. Young Dragon,

      Maybe read more into what GRRM said 😉 He said that the long night will be much and much longer in the books, maybe a couple of years 😉 And probably the last enemy in the books and the burning of KL will happen before the battle of the dawn. I expect that the wall will be down at the end of book 6. So that means GRRM has one big book of 1000 pages for the battle against the WW. Seems enough time for me. And I would advice you to read other books of GRRM, I read them all and I understand George’s theme in his books.
      The WW won’t be defeated in a big battle fashion that is not George, if you read his books you know that George will defeat but never kill his villain in his stories and you also understand that the WW will be his last storyline in the books (after the battle of the throne) and while we will read about the war against the dead we will see the chosen king/queen dealing with the “tax policy” of Westeros. And expect the WW to go at least to the Trident in the books. And expect that Dany won’t be in the battle in WF, expect that while they fight in the north, Dany arrives in Westeros.
      Also don’t forget that the books won’t get a Night King enemy that is suppose to be defeat and the whole hive dies. George is a hive writer (with his enemy) so I expect that that will come into play, but he never has a leader in the hive.
      We also know from George that he expend his “supernatural” creatures in his books. We are expecting to see kraken’s and other creatures in winds. (he even state we get some unicorn of sorts). And expect the weirwood trees to get more important in the books also, that exactly something George would do.
      And if you read Georges other books you also know that George won’t end his stories with “The big villain that we though was the hero will burn a city because she is a villain and now her lover needs to kill her for it”, that’s not George. Nissa Nissa theory is in fact something that is in his write style of the other books. And the theory that Euron is responsible for the burning of KL but Dany gets the blame is in George writing style. Being the hero but being portrait as the villain.
      I would advice you to read: Tuf Voyage, sandkings, dying of the light. (and some others look online which stories could be connected to asoiaf writing).

      As for 8×03. For me personally and the people I know, they enjoyed the first 30 minutes of the episode but after that it felt to repeat for them and were waiting for the episode to be done. For me, I loved the whole episode, but I was not that invested in the last 30 minutes. I understood the NK would be killed, that Bran would live and Theon would die. The only one I was afraid of would die was either Jaime or Brienne.

      As the HP statement you made, don’t you see that you exactly making my point here. HP had one enemy and when Voldemort return they split the story into multiple books, step for step. And if it were 2 everything needs to happen faster? Wouldn’t that make that the stories would be more divided? Like many state 2 seasons instead of 1? 1 for the WW and one for Dany?
      And HP did have more storylines, it had many subplots, not that big as GoT but it even had subplots in the last book. Or did we forget the whole background of Dumbledore? Or the snape storyline (which was more important than Voldemort storyline), the orphan storyline and more.

      Why did you keep hammering about Dany when I state that I agree that Dany should be death as fast as possible after what she did, and that it wouldn’t be logical that she would sit on the throne and rule. The only thing that was rushed about her story was for me episode 4 (part 2) and the missing link between the end of 4 and beginning of 5.

      As for Cersei it’s obvious why her story was rushed. Her story was almost non-existent this last season. She send Bronn north (which most fans hated that storyline). Then we see her back in episode 4. She takes Missandei, didn’t even see any plan that she had here (What we would have seen in the first 6 seasons, then we would see scene after scene how she plan to use Missandei), we didn’t see any build up for Cersei as the villain. It was more we defeated the WW and now we are going to cross of Cersei. One scene where she kills a dragon and get Missandei, and then just kill Missandei. And next episode let us feel sorry for her when she gets killed. The season was shortened and somehow (even when they could decide to have 7 or 8 or 9 or 10 episodes) we didn’t have time to have some time between Missandei and Cersei, or Missandei and Dany. Just kill her and be done with it. And this is a criticism of not only me but many and many fans and critics (there’s a reason why with many critics episode 4 till 6 received a vote of 1-5 instead of 6-10) and don’t forget Daniel Portman and Conleth hill who stated the season was too rushed. Or why not show Cersei and Euron wedding and Cersei as queen with the people to up the stakes. It was rushed because it only concerned to deal with the plotpoints and not the glue in between.

      And for the WW, it was rushed because it only concerned about the battle with the WW itself, we didn’t get more information about them, no they are just killing machines who want to end everything breathing, how original it’s probably the first series/movie to ever thing about an enemy who are just killing machines that want to end humanity. Just give us a simple explanation why they will go to WF so we can show this awesome visual battle (which it was it was one of the most beautiful I ever saw, but I don’t really care about visuals I care about writing). And yes for the show it made sense that the battle would end here, there is not unlimited funds for the show where we could have battle after battle with the WW (where the books are more free in that), but why not just show a bit more about the WW as a treat. Showing the taking of Last Hearth, a skirmish battle in between where we see common folk succumb to the treat. Showing us the horror instead of action.

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    79. kevin1989,

      “Maybe read more into what GRRM said 😉 He said that the long night will be much and much longer in the books, maybe a couple of years 😉 And probably the last enemy in the books and the burning of KL will happen before the battle of the dawn.”

      Uh, yeah, I’m gonna need a source for that.

      And not some Internet version of the Telephone Game fabricated by desperate book fans hoping against hope that the major beats of GRRM’s ending will be fundamentally different from D&D’s ending. Here’s my source, taken directly from GRRM’s mouth: https://youtu.be/SjDentEr9c4
      @2:17

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    80. Farimer123,

      I will look at it, it was a while back on his blog if I remember right.

      As for the video you send, what I said is not against what he says. The ending will be the same: Where the characters end and the WW are defeated. But he even admit in his interview that the story towards that ending is different, which I state how that could be different. He also state there have been some shuffling with storylines.

      And you state that he said that the fundemental beats will be the same, that’s not what he said. He said the ending will be the same, but the journey towards those ending will differ, watch that interview as a whole.

      And I think that shuffling of storylines is that the show ended with the IT story, but the books will end that first (so the tax-policy can be written by martin) and then the WW story will resolve.

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    81. kevin1989,

      I shouldn’t have to read what Martin said, I should only have to read the books and figure it out that way, but Martin doesn’t seem intent on writing them. If what you said is true, then there’s no longer any hope that these books will be finished. And yes, Martin turning the beloved hero into a tyrant which forces a fan favorite to kill the woman he loves to protect the world is exactly the sort of thing Martin would do, as it subverts expectations.

      The Long Night is my second favorite episode, so I loved it from start to finish.

      As I stated earlier, the comparison to HP doesn’t work because the structures of the story are entirely different.

      The reason I continue to argue about Danerys is that I disagree that we didn’t have enough time to process it.

      Cersei and the White Walkers storyline was not rushed. You are only expressing what you wished would happen. You wanted a scene between Cersei and Missandei. You wanted to learn more about the White Walkers, but that’s not what rushed is. This is about set up and payoff. The White Walker storyline was set up perfectly and ended in a climatic fashion. The war between Cersei and Danerys was set up perfectly and ended in a climactic fashion. That doesn’t change because you wished we had gotten more scenes. An example of a rushed storyline would be Winterfell in season 7. That storyline was not set up properly and the ending came out of nowhere. That is entirely different from the storylines in season 8.

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    82. kevin1989,

      Neil Marshall and Daniel Portman are entitled to say what they want, but they, like many others, don’t know the difference between rushed and fast paced. Season 8 moved at a brisk pace, especially compared to previous seasons, I’m not denying that, but every plot point they hit was earned and set up properly. That makes all the difference. Season 8 was fast paced, not rushed.

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    83. Young Dragon,

      1. There is enough time for that to happen. Maybe even to much. Where on screen you need to show a battle to its extend but on book you can write that much shorter, look at how long the battle at the wall took on screen a whole battle. In the books it was 2 chapters. Same with blackwater, that whole battle was around 50 pages max to write, and that was because we had sansa’s POV which happen off-battle. Look at the RW episode, that were 4 short chapters. Total of around 25 pages but it was a whole episode. Same with the battle at WF of 8×03, that could be told through 2 chapters maybe 3 chapters.
      2. No it isn’t. If you read Martin’s other works you know that. He never made somebody a villain like happened with Dany on screen. Making somebody a villain and let her be killed by her love one is a thrope that Martin never used in a single one of his books. But still his books had one theme in it. The Hero of the story is being portrait as the villain by the common people. If you read Tuf Voyage, dying of the light for instance you see that theme coming forth. Somebody doing an act to save people, but the people see that act as evil, and the hero pays for it. The whole theory (yes I call it that, we don’t have the books so who knows, maybe you’re right and we are going to see a Dark Dany burning KL as a Tyrant but for me that seems unlikely reading Martin’s other works, and I read them all), that Dany fights off Euron on dragon, the dragon burn the city because of that. Dany gets blamed for Euron’s action of burning KL even when she tried to save the people, going north to save again the people against the WW invasion, that ends up with Dany dying by Jon’s hand the one she loved (because he misinterpret the prophecy, I don’t believe the prophecy is true but the people believe it’s true and will act on it), and she dies to save the people but she died for nothing. That is the sort of thing Martin writes. He doesn’t write good vs evil, he writes tragic stories, good people dying and be remembered as villains, evil people living and be remembered as heroes.
      3. That’s exactly what rushed is, if you have a set-up like the WW background and don’t do a pay-off and do a “deux-ex-machina”-ending for the enemy just so you don’t need time to write a more interesting and plausible way to explain who they are, that is rushed. If you let Dany being mad because her dear friend Missandei died but we don’t even get one scene where that friendship is show in the episode or even the whole season, that is rushed, do we really believe she cared about Missandei when she didn’t even give Missandei one moment of her time to talk to her? They only hit the plotpoints but forget the glue in between. Same with for instance the resurrection of Viserion. We didn’t even get one reaction of Dany how she felt about that, it was more, let Dany know he is death, move on to the next scene, people don’t care about watching her emotions about it.
      4. If the season isn’t rushed. Explain to me, not by interpretation but where it show on screen. How Dany went from “Mad at Cersei and being powerful” at the end of episode 4. To the mess she is in at the beginning of episode 5, where she is paranoid about everything, looking weak etc. And I want a explanation that was shown on screen, as you state with the books, what the writers say or our own interpretation about those scenes don’t matter, it’s important what was shown on screen. So where was that changed explained in the show, which scene(s), which dialogue etc.
      5. And answer what did make Dany turn, what was the real reason? I mean there are so many explanations, one said it was her genes, others said it was a deliberate action Dany’s part to liberate Westeros (the thing we see in the final seems to point to this that is was a logical action of Dany and not emotional), or was it the death of Missandei? Seeing her home and being mad at Cersei, but if that was the case why not just fly to Cersei and kill her and going after the people who surrendered to her? Or was it Jon not wanting to give her love and she felt betrayed by him? But if that’s the case why did she fully trust him in episode 6?
      6. Even with all my criticizing I still love the last season. But it’s not as perfect as you make it out to be, it has major flaws that could have been avoided by just having a bit more time and not rushing the season.
      7. WF storyline in season 7 was not perse rushed, it was in fact the opposite, they made a storyline that wasn’t needed, only to give Arya and Sansa something to do. Having to kill LF could have done in half the screentime. Having Arya and Sansa making a plan together, that Sansa know who LF is and ask Arya for help. And a scene later that we got in the final. As you state the storyline was set-up wrong, doesn’t mean that a right set-up would mean more time, it could easily mean shorter but more too the point. With season 8 it’s the opposite, every storyline is perfectly set up, and I say perfectly ended, but the middlepart was shortened.

      Young Dragon,
      8. I think especially Neil Marshall, a professional director who worked with many writers, thinks the season is rushed. I think his opinion is more than an opinion, it’s an opinion that is build with experience in his field. He knows better than either one of us what is rushed, great, bad etc. And the only critic he has is rushed, not bad, because the season is written amazing, but I agree with Neil that it’s rushed.
      And to think of it, saying that it’s rushed is even a problem for the ones stating it. It can make their future career more difficult. If you go against the one who paid you, like Neil and Daniel did, it could result in not being chosen by a future project because they fear you express your critic about the project later on. It shows that they really believe that and don’t care about what it could mean for their future careers.

      And to look back at rushed you only need to watch season 1. Did we forget the perfect Robert and Cersei scene in episode 5. If season 8 is not rushed because we don’t need those kind of scenes, season 1 was too stretched by including those scenes. (but those scenes served a purpose in my opinion, a purpose that GoT is known for that was absent in season 8)

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    84. Young Dragon: Neil Marshall and Daniel Portman are entitled to say what they want, but they, like many others, don’t know the difference between rushed and fast paced.

      Young Dragon: Season 8 was fast paced, not rushed.

      You are also more than welcome to have your own opinion, but, what exactly qualifies you to be the ultimate judge of what is and isn’t considered rushed vs. fast paced?

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    85. kevin1989,

      Rewatch that whole video, it’s not that long. He says the major beats are basically the same, owing to several days of story conferences that took place in his home some years back. If the WW made it past Winterfell into the South, and the War against Cersei played out with the WW still being a factor, then the major beats AND the ending would have been fundamentally different.

      Also, about the blog post, that’s what you told me last time, about some dubious thing GRRM supposedly said about the book/show differences on his blog, which I then asked for a source, and you never followed up on. And I can’t see him having talked about that any more than 7 months ago, when S8 ended, so if he did indeed say that, you shouldn’t have too much trouble finding it this time 🙂

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    86. Great that we have Tyrion’s comments on season 8. Like Peter, I’m a supporter of series 8 as is – it was a good and fitting finale. In an odd way, the fact that folks protested the Dany nemesis ending – proves that it was right. How so? The clues were always there that demons lurked within the dragon queen. Her hypnotic appeal brought many characters under its spell, and many viewers. We forgave her the violent excesses because her ideology seemed so pure and righteous. And that’s exactly the point. The Dany manifesto was so compelling that millions of us were drawn in. The road to hell was paved with good intentions. Many saw a social justice warrior and were willing to allow or forgive her anything.

      But not Varys, or Tyrion, or Jon Snow. And neither, in fact, Jaime Lannister. The entire series began and ended with the Jaime Lannister conundrum. He was the king-slayer, right? He suffered under that stigma, which became a bitter root that produced a corrosive cynicism in Jaime (“the things we do for love”). And yet we discover that he killed the Targaryen king only to avert destruction of Kings Landing by fire. Ironically Jaime dies when the holocaust he had prevented by his regicide is fulfilled by Dany Targaryen, and unlike Jaime, Jon Snow is too late in betraying loyalty to a monarch to avert disaster.

      Series 8 episodes such as the battle with the dead at Winterfell are outstanding epics rivalling anything in Lord of the Rings. The effective use of darkness, cloud and confusion add to a bone-chilling atmosphere. The series feints at certain end scenes which never unfold (we all know that Arya is going to kill Cersei, right?), and thus escapes predictability and serves up rewarding surprises right to the end. The deaths of Cersei and Jaime, alone, consummated their mutual retreat from a world that had damaged them beyond repair. GOT is a brilliantly moving and illuminating drama poignantly illucidating the human condition: series 8 was the right ending as well as spectacular filmcraft.

      The symbology of Dany was just too compelling as everything progressive politics and social justice warrior millennialism thirsts for – female empowerment, breaking of oppressive power structures. So much so that even the carbon footprint of her dragons can be forgiven. (Although my personal suspicion is that the dragons were a species that had evolved a way to harness nuclear power but that’s an aside). Outrage at the death with dishonour of such an icon is very understandable.

      If Game of Thrones was anything it was realistic about messy and chaotic human lives and power politics. It soared beyond the simplistic formulae of Lord of the Rings and often broke rules, as real life also does. Things happened because they could, not because they should. The Rosetta Stone that is key to understanding everything in GOT was a simple quotation from Cersei: “In the game of thrones you win or you die”.

      In such a game a momentary mistake is enough to cause one to fall and lose everything. Think of Oberyn at the end of his duel with the mountain. Daenerys had won – so it seemed, with Kings Landing in ashes. But the game was not over and it’s primordial rules were still in operation. She made the mistake of making herself an obstacle in the way of what her peers wanted – an end to war and conquest and the setting up of a peaceful new order. In like manner Winston Churchill fell from power at the end of WW2 because those that followed, supported and even loved him, while they appreciated the military victory that he served up, did not share his insatiable desire for warfare seemingly for its own sake, but wanted peace. To cry for endless war when the people want peace is not a formula for political success, which requires sensing what both the people and power-brokers want, moment by moment, and not to go on fighting yesterday’s wars.

      Victory and realisation of ones dreams can itself be a severe test of wisdom and character. Dany failed this test and the result was tragic – but not irrational in the context of the very dangerous game of thrones.

      Yes about Arya, a number of people have commented that the Hound saved her from her nihilistic kill Bill / kill Cersei quest and set her on a more positive path. So she indeed provides a counter-example to Daenerys. The Frey’s denouement was one of GOT’s superb scenes, including the initial confusion at seeing Lord Frey talking to the assembly after he had been killed. Except it wasn’t him.

      Bran the broken was a triumph of the show also. His identity and role was original and powerful in its non-violence. A refreshing departure from so many fictional heroes. Watching the Long Night episode where they battled and seemed to be losing to the Night King and white walkers, my daughter and I were both frustrated by Bran’s inactivity, just “sitting there like a potato” – we all half expected his eyes to turn white and some devastating ruin to descend on the dead legions. Yet what Bran represented was not a deus ex machina through physical force; but rather, the power of just seeing, knowing and not forgetting.

      Game of Thrones is fantasy fiction, not history. So there are some rules of engagement with the reader / viewer – or at least, guidelines. And it needs to make sense, in terms of contingency, logic and – in some way – morality. In the Long Night episode I was not alone in thinking “who would be lost”. Several have commented that very few major characters were lost despite the carnage and hopeless odds they faced. The ones that did fall seemed to do so to attain final moral redemption: Theon and Jorah, for instance, both made final atonement for earlier betrayals. So they were “allowed” to die. Apart from them, it seemed to the cynical that all the other majors were still “needed” for their respective denouements – Jaime, Brianne, Jon, Daenerys, Arya, The Hound, Bran etc.

      Love, especially when unrequited, can induce irrational behaviour and thus in spite of all that has happened Dany still hopes for love from Jon. So that’s not such a big stretch. But I’m still struck by how odd it was that the two of them were alone in the throne-room. It’s almost as if Dany has a death wish and wants Jon to kill her. In any case it becomes obvious that is going to happen several moments before it does.

      That Drogon does not burn Jon shows the dragon’s understanding of the situation. The dragon was nearby but did not intervene to save Dany either. He must also have known the significance of destroying the iron throne. The logical completion of his dead mother’s work.

      I rewatched the final iron throne episode and noticed a curious scene with Drogon. Jon is on his way to what’s left of the hall with the iron throne where he will confront Dany for the final time. What looks like a pile of dust and rubble stirs to life as Drogon is lying under it. Drogon emerges from his dusty concealment and briefly comes face to face with Jon. The moment passes and Drogon lets Jon go on his way. Was Drogon guilty and/or depressed after what he had done at Dany’s behest? Is it possible that he felt bad about it? This is speculative of course but we know dragons are highly intelligent and far from being witless brutes. Why had Drogon covered himself with dust and rubble? I don’t think he was playing hide and seek. In the Bible (old testament) covering oneself with dust and ashes was a sign of either extreme grief, or shame and guilt, or both.

      And what passed between Jon and Drogon at that brief meeting? Did Drogon even know or suspect what was about to happen?

      I only recently realised the significance of the Iron Throne itself – it was magically charged and talismanic, analogous somewhat to the ring of power in Middle Earth. That indeed adds immensely to the finality of the end scene. There is no doubt that the IT was cursed and exerted a malign influence on those who sat on it and who craved after it. (Did you ever see the movie “Oculus”? In no other film I have seen has an inanimate object exerted such pure malevolence.) One recalls the malign effect of the slain Smaug’s treasure on Thorin Oakenshield in Tolkein’s “The Hobbit”. Drogon’s status thus climbs to that of major protagonist-hero, even though he had done evil at Dany’s behest. That’s another remarkable aspect of the whole GOT story – there were very few pure good and bad characters. Many who did evil found redemption. Others who set out to do good went on to commit appalling crimes. This is a much needed challenge to the shallow moral tract-waving self-righteousness and binary simplicity of so much contemporary film.

      The author indeed sketches many final events quite lightly, leaving a lot to the viewer’s interpretation and imagination. Which is excellent film-making. It was Roman Polanski among I’m sure others who said that all films should end with unanswered questions. To much finality and one soon forgets it. Not so with GOT.

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    87. Pigeon,

      Sorry for the late response!

      I’ve seen a few snippets of the show on YouTube and loved what I saw of Rory, but… it was almost 20 years ago!!! Surely someone could find something *else* frothy, sexy and comedic for him to do, especially given that he’s aged as well as any other fine Scotch (go ahead, groan… I don’t care).

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    88. Tron79,

      FYI Dame of Mercia set up a Forum page devoted to GoT cast members’ appearances in other shows and movies. Your listing of GoT alumni appearing in James Bond movies would be a good addition to that thread (if you’ve got a log-in, and if you feel like making an entry; I wouldn’t presume to “steal” your listing and post it there myself).

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    89. Dire guineapig,

      Wow! Interesting analysis. I would only add that I felt there were a few unnecessary (and out of character) events to make Dany feel unloved, alienated and isolated. (For example, Arya and Sansa rashly rejecting Dany – who had come North with her armies to fight and die for the Starks and their people, after rescuing Jon and the wight hunters at the Frozen Lake.)

      However, Dany’s tendencies were (for me) adequately telegraphed, e.g., her plan to wipe out all of the Masters’ cities (civilians included) until Tyrion talked her out of it in S6e9. Her completely unnecessary – and barbaric – barbecuing of Tarly father and son, i.e., executing POWs. was not the action of a beneficent “savior.”

      In fact, her kneel or fry ultimatum and dragon-roasting prisoners, not to mention her road rage in S8e5, made Cersei’s “Mad King’s Daughter” propaganda speech (S7e2, I think) seem prophetic.

      As Tyrion even told Cersei, the difference between Dany and Cersei was that Dany had chosen advisors to rein in her worst impulses. No surprise then that when those advisors betrayed her (Varys), lost her confidence (Tyrion), and were killed (Jorah, Missandei), there was nobody around to stop her from going over the deep end. (I exclude Jon: for whatever reason he became ineffectual.)

      I just thought it was overkill to have the Stark sisters and Northerners treat her with suspicion and disdain. I also didn’t think that the only consequence of Jon’s paternity revelation was going to be to make Dany feel her claim to the throne was tenuous. (All that build-up just for that?)

      Anyway, I didn’t perceive Dany going full-on fire and blood on KL wasn’t sufficiently set up. However, I did think it was going to play out differently, such that her nuking the entire city would be morally ambiguous, rather than an evil act of unhinged lunacy.

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    90. Wolfish:
      Efi,

      But Slynt didn’t kill Ned. Ilyn Payne (an older relative of Podrick’s), the chief executioner, did. Slynt did help frame Ned, though.

      On the show at least, Slynt and his Gold Cloaks helped slaughter Ned’s men in the throne room after promising Ned that they’d support him.
      However, I kind of blame Ned – for forging Robert’s will and not telling him Joffrey wasn’t his son. That enabled Joffrey and Cersei to beat him to the punch and brand him a traitor.

      (Not getting his own daughters out of harm’s way before warning Cersei to get out of Dodge with her kids was another inexcusable, bone-headed move.)

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    91. kevin1989,

      1. It’s not just the battles, though, it’s the build up to the battles. Besides, I believe you said you want the Long Night to consist of several battles, not just one, and that Martin himself said it’s going to last several years. Add that to all the other plot points he has to resolve, it’ll be a miracle if he manages to pull this off, especially since he’s already released about 10% of Winds and the story still is not progressing.

      2. Having a fan favorite character commit the most atrocious act in the entire show forcing another fan favorite to kill her is not a trope. I believe mau said it best. For 6 seasons, we’ve wanted Danerys to invade Westeros and topple the Lannister regime. When she finally does it, it’s a nightmare. Such subversion of expectation is Martin’s specialty.

      3. The White Walker storyline was payed off in full. The White Walker storyline was built up and ended with the biggest battle in film history. There’s nothing rushed about that. Deux Ex Machina, like rushed and plot hole, is another term that this fandom misuses. Arya was not a Deux Ex Machina as her killing the Night King was built up to, not to mention we literally see her leaving to kill him. Not Deux Ex Machina at all. And we already knew that Danerys and Missandei were close. We didn’t need another scene between them. Again, you may have liked a scene between them, but the absence of the scene doesn’t make it rushed.

      4. Danerys was not powerful at the end of Episode 4. She had just lost her best friend. And it truly hit her hard, as we saw at the end of Episode 4 and throughout Episode 5. Not rushed.

      5. I’ve explained to you so many times why she turned. You may not accept the reasons, but that doesn’t make the story rushed.

      6. I never said Season 8 was perfect, but no other television series is. The flaws in season 8 are no more egregious than the flaws in Breaking Bad, The Americans, or the previous GOT seasons. My one main complaint is Bran becoming king. I just needed a little bit more set up for that. Also, tactics used in the Long Night weren’t great, but that’s true for most battles in television shows/movies, including the previous seasons of GOT.

      7. Whether the Winterfell plot was needed or not isn’t the issue. They went with a storyline there, but didn’t set it up properly.

      8. I have already given my reasons on why season 8 was fast paced and not rushed. I don’t know much about Neil Marshall, so I’m not simply going to accept his view on it.

      Season 1 was certainly a lot slower paced than season 8, hence the Robert/ Cersei scene, but season 8 had many character moment scenes as well. It didn’t have as many as season 1, but it still had more than most shows. It certainly had better quality ones, anyway. Just because it didn’t have as many character moments as previous seasons doesn’t mean it was rushed.

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    92. Mr Derp,

      It’s not exactly an opinion. Whether something is rushed or fast paced is objective, though it’s easy to confuse the two. I don’t blame them for it.

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    93. Young Dragon:
      Mr Derp,

      It’s not exactly an opinion. Whether something is rushed or fast paced is objective, though it’s easy to confuse the two. I don’t blame them for it.

      Good lord, the hubris is unreal. You actually believe that you know more than people working directly on the show, and then talk condescendingly towards them? Wow. Just wow.

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    94. On the topic of Janos Slynt and Ned: no, Slynt didn’t kill Ned. However, as Wolfish pointed out, Slynt did betray Ned in the throne room and led the attack on the Stark household, which resulted in Ned’s arrest. In the show, Jon is unaware of Slynt’s part in Ned’s downfall. However, in the books, Jon is aware and makes efforts not to let this colour his decisions in relation to Slynt but admits it is very difficult.

      Dire guineapig: Did Drogon even know or suspect what was about to happen?

      Thanks for your essay and you provided an interesting analysis! 🙂 In response to this part specifically, I don’t think Drogon knew what would happen as it seems Jon didn’t go into the throne room with the intention to kill or betray Dany (I don’t think he made that decision until she said, “They don’t get to choose”) but to try and dissuade her. Perhaps this is why Drogon let Jon pass. The new book, ‘The Complete Guide to Westeros and Beyond’ had an interesting point that in their final scene, neither Jon or Daenerys let their feelings for each other override the choices they ultimately felt were necessary.

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    95. Wolfish:
      Pigeon,

      Sorry for the late response!

      I’ve seen a few snippets of the show on YouTube and loved what I saw of Rory, but… it was almost 20 years ago!!! Surely someone could find something *else* frothy, sexy and comedic for him to do, especially given that he’s aged as well as any other fine Scotch (go ahead, groan… I don’t care).

      Oh, I have no doubt! But maybe he’s stayed away from such roles as to not put his life of solitary adventure at risk due to gaggles of oggling women chasing him about the islands. 🤪

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    96. Pigeon,

      Apparently, I do. I have given my reasons and have explained the difference between rushed and fast paced, and the only response I’m getting is, “No, it was rushed.” If you have something concrete to say, say it. Otherwise, why are you getting involved?

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    97. Young Dragon,

      I just watched The Last Kingdom and this show is so fast paced. It didn’t bother me. While I was watching I noticed the following:

      The people who criticize Game of Thrones for plot armor and say it’s rushed are exactly the same people who praise The Last Kingdom even though it has so much plot armor, deus ex machina and its very fast paced etc. That just shows the hypocrisy about Got and that people judge GoT different as other shows.

      As you said, people don’t know the difference between fast pacing and rushed.

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    98. Farimer123,

      He says the ending is the same (with the yes but no but yes but no but yes but no so what does he mean with that?) but the way we get there is different, he said that many times that he takes a different road towards the ending. Yes the broader strokes are the same: Having a war against the WW, having a war for the throne. Having Jon going north, having Sansa be queen, having Bran be king, having Arya going west, having Dany get killed by Jon, having KL burned, having Tyrion being hand of the king. (don’t forget that Cersei and Jaime are secondary characters in the books not main)

      And did you read winds of winter sample chapters? We got already around a 1/8 1/7 of winds of winter roughly and not a single thing was in the show. That should say something how much the books will differ from the show. Yes we had the plotpoint “Mercy” in both the books and show, but the way it was portrait was completely different in both version.

      And sorry that I don’t have time to react all the time and looking for an hour to look for a older post, some people have to work, and the short time I have free time I’m not going to put in searching old posts (I don’t even have time to watch season 7 yet, which for me I do first when I finally got some spare time), I still have it on my to-do-list when I got free time again 🙂

      I just searched for 5 minutes, didn’t find what I remember (as stated before maybe I just remembered it wrong that’s why I really want to find it, I read to much about GoT and GRRM on his blog that I sometimes don’t remember where I read it) but I found this:

      https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-george-rr-martin-final-season-prequel-series-status-1200003

      https://winteriscoming.net/2019/04/08/george-r-r-martin-talks-about-season-8-the-winds-of-winter/

        Quote  Reply

    99. Young Dragon,

      1. True the build up is amazingly done in episode 8×02. I said I rather wanted the long night to shattered over multiple episodes. And every episode maybe 15/20 minutes of battling with them. Having a bit more of them too see. With the battle being more in the books than a battle at WF doesn’t mean that Martin will implement more battles with them. Martin most of the time skips the battle and we see it happen later through a flashback that they thought about one moment in the battle. I expect we will see a battle that we lose, and later the WW story is resolved into a fashion that we didn’t saw coming, as I state I don’t think the WW are going to be killed in the books, merely being defeated, but how that will happen is in GRRM head, and I don’t think he would have given that information to anyone but himself. He also can do a time skip of several months in the books. He can show through flashbacks (like he did with Sam I in SoS) the battle. There’s a lot of ways he can do it that doesn’t give too much to write about those stories. And the thing about winds is, those chapters are the ending of DwD that were skipped to WoW, characters are devided there, in winds they come together, meaning less storlines and more progression per storyline. Dany/Tyrion come together in winds, Arianne and Jon C, Jon/Stannis/Davos etc. (And he already state that maybe we will get 3 books not 2). The thing is also his storylines overlap, many storylines have almost every puzzle pieces lay out he only need to connect it, like with Varys, LF, Dorne, Jon’s past etc are almost all completely revealed, and many of those will probably be connected and revealed in one chapter.
      2. Oh but it is, X-men did it, and I can name many more stories (as Petra made a post here on watchersonthewall after episode 5 or 6 aired), the boyfriend killing the evil girlfriend is done over and over again. And I was one that stated after season 7 that this is where her character would go remember, still I think in the end I was not pleased with it.
      2b. You state that this is Martin’s way, but I already give you 3 books of Martin that shows that Martin would never go that way. Tell me a story he has written that shows that this is the way Martin ends his stories? Because than I probably have missed that book and I would like to read it. Martin’s writing is always that a hero is being portrait as a villain, or a evil person portrait as a hero in the end and the rest has to live with it. He is not outing a hero as a villain and later kill the villain by the other hero of the story. That’s not his writing style and theme.
      3. Once again you state: biggest battle in film history. There’s nothing special in writing to include a big battle and show off how beautiful things are shot. Avenger movies are beautiful shot and in the end the writing is pretty easy (writers even admit they wrote some movies within an hour). Still what they bring especially the last (I saw some scenes when my partner watched it) and it looked pretty amazing visually. And I agree that the ones who did the visual aspect of the story did the best job I ever saw in TV. And I didn’t talk about Arya killing the NK through DEM, I talked about what the NK is after that was DEM, it’s the old trope, big baddie want to end all that lives and breathes. (And even Martin states his version of the WW are a race which are not evil).
      3b. If you have 1,5 years between 2 seasons, yes you do. You need to show the audience why there is a bond between the characters, especially a show like GoT that stood out from the rest because the focus was the characters and the bonds they have together. You keep talking with “You maybe have liked a scene between them” no it was rushed. I never cared for the character of Missandei personally or Grey worm, and if you read my comments you knew I never was that into Dany character either. It should not have been in it because I would have like that (because it’s not that I personally would care for that scene) but it should have been in it, because good writing asks for it, and to not rush the story. This is not a blockbuster movie/show. This is GoT that is known for their character moments.
      3c. And if you want to know a story that was fast paced and not rushed, look at Dark Knight movie.
      4. She looked mad and scary and ready for battle at the end of 4, it was even in the inside the episode that Dany is angry there. Look at that scene the face Dany makes how it was acted: Angry ready for revenge.
      5. You explained it what happen of screen, an interpretation. But looking online the people defending that turn they all gave different explanations. Even D&D gave a different explanation than the actors did. So tell me which scene itself, it seems you couldn’t gave a single scene that really show her turn only interpretation by the viewer and we need to guess.
      6. Really compare season 8 to BB? Which didn’t rushed anything, split the last season in 2, dived into every aspect of the ending in one stage per episode, by critics and casual viewers state as the best show ever made. Characters didn’t react out of character like they did with GoT only to further the plot. The last 8 episodes of BB were all perfect from beginning to end, without a single plothole in it. Agree about the Americans but their problem was the first seasons not the last one.
      6b. The tactic of 6×09 was done in history, so you made here a point why season 8 was not though through completely as it should, like they did with 6×09. And there is also do people buy it? You can invent unrealistic event but as long as the viewer’s think it makes sense, there’s nothing wrong (can’t come up with the name how that’s called).
      7. Agree, so the problem wasn’t rushed, the problem was that they went with a storyline that was wrong from the beginning. And think why they include that storyline, was it for the story or for giving the actors/actresses something to do?
      8. The thing is, season 8 had character moment scenes for the plot. Season 1 was the opposite. Mostly character moments that sometimes didn’t have anything to do with the plot itself, but it enhanced the story. And I don’t say season 8 was bad, far from it. But it’s obvious that the problem lies with the lack of character moments and story endings. (I mean season 1 started the whole LF Varys feud, we didn’t get a proper ending to that storyline, something Conleth also missed in season 8), yes the backlash is overreacted, but in the end there is a core problem that most state, the story needed more character moments. And true the good outshines the bad. (I mean I won’t give a single season episode a rating below an 8,0).
      8b. You state the show isn’t rushed, I will probably not convince you. But here’s the thing why many people state it is rushed. GoT started with its first season, people love the first season and though it was unique, but why? Is it the plot? A bit but not really, plots like this is known for a long time, games, books, movies etc already had it. The combination of different genres is also something that helped, it has fantasy, but the magic is not in your face but scary. But in the end what made GoT that great was the many character moments it had, the plot moved slow but it gave us something amazing in return, all those character moments that made us care for them, we feel for them. Even the villains, we saw Cersei’s side from the beginning, that’s something unique isn’t it? In the end it was the heavily character moments of the show, that was the first concern and not the plot itself that made GoT that big. But in season 8 the concern was the plot, not the characters, character moments could be cut if that meant that a certain plot could be told in 1 episode instead of 2. The way season 8 was structured shows that it was structured around the plot of the season. So the thing that people watched the show for was put second. That’s why it’s rushed.

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    100. Young Dragon,

      If that’s the case that’s it’s objective, we should look at what the professionals think of it, the professional critics (most state it was rushed) and people working in the field like Neil Marshall, Daniel Portman (worked on season 8), Natalia Tena (worked on the show) all have professional experience in film-making. Most of them agree it was rushed. So if it’s objective than in fact it was rushed when the professionals state it was rushed.

      Or is in now again an opinion?

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    101. kevin1989,

      You are just complaining about anything that doesn’t go your way.
      First you should learn the difference between fast pacing and rushing instead writing long comments. Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss include everything that was important for the plot and put all together brilliantly.
      As I said before, write your own fan fiction.

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    102. kevin1989,

      ”years between 2 seasons, yes you do. You need to show the audience why there is a bond between the characters, especially a show like GoT that stood out from the rest because the focus was the characters and the bonds they have together….

      But in the end what made GoT that great was the many character moments it had, the plot moved slow but it gave us something amazing in return, all those character moments that made us care for them, we feel for them. Even the villains, we saw Cersei’s side from the beginning, that’s something unique isn’t it? In the end it was the heavily character moments of the show, that was the first concern and not the plot itself that made GoT that big.”

      Amen.
      And that is why I will stubbornly insist that S4e7 was #1 out of the 73 episodes. Wall-to-wall, one-on-one character moments. No big budget battles necessary.

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    103. The LightKing,

      One of us 2 don’t know the difference between fast paced writing and rushed. And it’s not me 😉

      Season 8 of GoT is rushed, it’s not a complain, it’s an opinion backed up by most of the critics (who are professionals when comes to judging writing), by many working in the field, and worked on the show, I named them above. But somehow you think you know better than the ones who worked in the field and studied it.

      I also gave an example of a fast paced movie which isn’t rushed: Dark knight. And to go with GoT, season 2 was fast paced, but not rushed. Season 8 compared to season 2 is even less fast paced, it’s pretty slow same with season 7, we got 20/30 minute scenes, is the opposite of fast paced. We got in season 8 a after party of 30 minutes, so it’s not fast paced else that part would have been max 10 minutes, or the long night episode was 80 minutes, if the problem was fast paced the long night would have been maybe 20 minutes. But it skipped over many scenes that should have been in it, to close every single storyline. I already have you the Varys LF storyline, which didn’t have a conclusion, as Conleth hill stated, there should have been a scene in season 8 where Varys talked about LF to give that storyline closure. Season 8 skipped over many important parts of the story.

      And I’m not complaining, just stating facts at the end of the day I still enjoy watching all the 8 seasons, so this is not a personal feeling that I want to express that I didn’t get what I want (as stated storywise there needed to be a scene with Missandei and Dany, not perse because we don’t know that they were friends, but it seems that she just ignored Missandei whole of season 8, just one small scene of 2 minutes would have solved that problem, and even I do’n’t care at all for the character of Missandei, never did, still love the actress of course she did a wonderful job), it’s just that even when I love all 8 seasons I see some problems that season 8 had.

      But I’m done with this discussion it’s a bit talking to a brick wall, arguments are ignored that I say. And the difference is that you keep on having the same arguments and state it as facts (season 8 is fast paced not rushed), while I state my opinion not as a fact but with arguments of people who know what they talk about better than me (Marshall, Portman, most critics etc) and you won’t change my mind, I rather listen to the professionals and I keep on doing that.

      Ten Bears,

      Same with season 3, for me episode 5 is my favorite. The whole bath scene, the only action moment in that episode was the beginning with Sandor and Beric fighting. Rest was character building.

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    104. kevin1989,

      Those people don’t know the difference either. You can call it rushed when important plot points were left out, that wasn’t the case in S7 and 8. Just because you wanted more scenes, that doesn’t mean it was rushed or those scenes were necessary! I don’t care what other people are saying.

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    105. The LightKing,

      Yes, everyone working in the field don’t know it, but you do. People like Marshall, Portman, Tena, Conleth Hill, more than half the critics don’t know what they are talking about (strange that they work in the field) but you know it better than them.

      Plotpoints were left out as I stated, the whole Varys LF storyline is left hanging and not ended, it started in season 1, but it didn’t get a proper ending. Too much was written that we as the viewers need to interpreted it ourselves and hope we think the same as the writers did.

      But I’m a bit done with this whole discussion, I stick with what the people in the field think and more than half the critics, it was rushed (and it seems that the most people on this site seems to think also, most commenters state it was rushed here)

      And if you think that season 8 was not rushed and think it was fast paced you clearly don’t know the difference. Season 2 was fast paced but not rushed. Season 8 was the opposite, you can clearly see how long a scene takes. Season 8 had a whole episode building up to a battle, a 80 minute battle, we got a 40 minute after-party, the burning of KL took 40 minutes at least. That shows it was not fast paced, so you stating that it was fast paced shows already you don’t know what you’re talking about, but things were missing that should have been seen on screen to end storylines that now weren’t ended, or storylines that missed the important scene to make that storyline stick.

      But here the discussion ends on my part, you keep the take on it that it was fast paced and not rushed, which I hereby respect and I keep my opinion that it was rushed and not fast paced and I hope you respect my take on it.

      Ten Bears,

      And how far did Sandor and Arya go. With full respect of each other.
      Or Jaime and Brienne. One of the scenes I still feel after all this time watching it. The face of Brienne is brilliant and the way Jaime speaks makes you really feel like you have been through what he have been through. Top notch acting of both of them.

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    106. kevin1989,

      As I said, you should rethink what you are writing instead of writing long comments. Quality over quantity. What you are doing is just nitpicking, nothing else.

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    107. The LightKing,

      I only repeat what people who work in the field and have the right objectively background for it to make a statement. If you don’t agree with them, better look at why you can’t take a professionals objectively findings about season 8. Because it seems that you have more a problem with people showing critic (even when it’s sounded by many people who I stated like Marshall), it’s almost universal with the people in the field that season 8 was rushed. That’s not something of a nitpicking of me, it’s something that I noticed like many others.

      I already showed you examples of why season 8 was not fast paced but the opposite, that’s something that you can objectively see when seeing the show even measure how long each scene takes. But you ignore that part because it shows the fault in your opinion.
      I showed why it was rushed, and you come with the same old argument that is even a fallacy: that I just didn’t get what I want. Even when I even state I didn’t care about many things I didn’t saw but still see that it was needed storywise and why it was needed. You keep on repeating yourself even when many already here showed the fault in your thinking.

      And you remember hopefully that I was one of the few here when the season aired who was positive about episode 3 till 6.

      And it seems with this last comment you saw that I was right: The season is rushed. So you resolved to the personal attack on how I write my comments. This shows me and others that you were out of arguments and that was the last resolve. It’s a bit the same thinking as: If I see a grammatical or spelling mistake, I win the argument.

      But I’m a bit done with it, I keep on respecting your take on it, I don’t agree with you here, but I respect your view on it. But it seems people like me who doesn’t share your view, don’t get respect from you. So I’m done with it. Even when reacting to me, I won’t react back anymore. I will finish season 7 now with the last episode. I rather do that now.

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    108. Ok, let’s take inventory of what we’ve currently got going on here.

      We have a person who’s notorious for being his own #1 fan and another person who uses multiple names claiming that they know more about the pacing of a tv show than the professionals that do the work…and are expecting to be taken seriously.

      Thanks for the laugh, guys. I really needed that today.

      Kevin, for the record, I think you’re one of the most respectful commenters here and I’m sorry that some others are not showing you mutual respect. I enjoy your posts.

        Quote  Reply

    109. Mr Derp,

      Thank you Mr Derp, same to you. I always love reading your posts. And our conversations even if we do agree, don’t agree or just making jests about nothing.

      And I always respect others opinions, and if I feel later that my comments were too personal or could feel like an attack I always be honest about it and say I’m sorry (strange that I’m not Canadian ;)).

        Quote  Reply

    110. kevin1989,

      “And how far did Sandor and Arya go. With full respect for each other.”
      ——-
      Yup…

      S3e5 The Hound vs. Beric trial by combat

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwyvjgs40Oo

      (2:41)
      Arya: “Kill him!”

      (3:18 – 3:35)
      Sandor: “Looks like their god likes me more than your butcher’s boy.”
      Arya: “Burn in hell!”
      …….
      and by S8e5:
      Arya: “Sandor!…Thank you.”

        Quote  Reply

    111. kevin1989,

      Oh, and of course, look where Beric, Arya and Sandor started out…

      S3e4 (Arya taken to BwoB hideout for Sandor’s trial by combat vs. Beric)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxkJgagppYw

      4:40 – 5:01
      Sandor: “…Or is the little girl the bravest one here?”
      Beric: “Aye. She might be. But it’s me you’ll fight.”
      ________
      … And where the three of them ended up in S8e3, all of the same team (i.e., with Sandor and Beric protecting the Lord’s Chosen aka ASNAWPTWP).

      P.S. The Hound was prescient. The “little girl” was in fact the bravest one there.

        Quote  Reply

    112. Mr Derp,

      Dude, you are ridiculous. Please learn to read correctly. I gave you my reason why I changed my name. It’s easy to agree with someone who has the same opinion like you.

        Quote  Reply

    113. kevin1989,

      1, If you have too many battles off screen, it loses the impact, though. If Martin wants to establish the White Walkers as an actual threat, we the readers have to see them in action. Martin sat down with the showrunners and gave them the plot points to his books. That doesn’t necessarily mean they’ve implemented them, in fact that’s highly unlikely as they cut several storylines all together, but I think it’s safe to say much of the plot that happened in the final season will take place in the books. But I heard that Tyrion and Danerys don’t meet up until well into Winds, so that will still be two storylines.

      2. I don’t read comic books, and I only watch Marvel movies and Nolan’s Batman trilogy, with the exception of Logan. Yes, boyfriends have killed girlfriends, but the girlfriend was never typically a fan favorite. She wasn’t someone people emphasized with and named their babies after, rooting for her to take back her kingdom, only to do so in the most horrific way possible. Can you name a story that did anything like that?

      2b. Think about the Red Wedding, Ned’s beheading, Joffrey’s death, Oberyn fighting the Mountain, etc. Martin does the unexpected. That is his way. Danerys burning down King’s Landing and being killed by Jon falls into this category and is very much Martin’s style.

      3. Yes, big battles are easier to write, though harder to shoot, but we are not talking about writing here. We’re talking about whether the White Walker storyline was rushed or not. Ending a story after the right amount of build up with the most climatic battle in film history means definitively that it was not rushed.

      3b. Danerys and Missandei’s relationship has been built up since season 3. If anyone was confused by why Danerys was taking Missandei’s death so hard despite not having an intimate scene between them in season 8, then the fault lies with the viewer for not paying attention. And yes, GOT is known for character moments, of which there was plenty in season 8. More would have been nice, but more was not needed to make season 8 incredible.

      3c. I agree, The Dark Knight is my all time favorite movie and is a perfect example of a story that’s fast paced and not rushed. Do you know another perfect example? Season 8 of GOT

      4. Yes, as I said, Missandei’s death hit her very hard. You see it at the end of Episode 4 and you see it in Episode 5. The transition is in no way odd or out of place. You are clearly reaching here.

      5. Art is open to interpretation. I use evidence provided in season 8, plus the pattern of behavior Danerys has shown throughout the show and arrived at my conclusion. Danerys punishes those she believes have wronged her, and she believed the citizens of King’s Landing have wronged her. It seems pretty cut and dry to me.

      6. There was one thing that was rushed in Breaking Bad. The show was building up to Walt becoming a kingpin, and all we get is a two minute montage. It was very disappointing. But you’re right, the rest of the final season wasn’t rushed. Then again, neither was GOT season 8. What I’m talking about are the other flaws that plagued Breaking Bad’s final season, and its previous seasons as well, and there are many. You are just much more critical of GOT than you are of Breaking Bad, so you point out all of GOT’s flaws, whether they are genuine or not, but completely ignore Breaking Bad’s.

      6b. There was no tactic in Battle of the Bastards, which is what makes the Long Night a more strategic battle. All Battle of the Bastards was two armies colliding into each other. To be clear, I’m completely fine with this, as I watch battles in television and movies for the spectacle and not historical accuracy, but I don’t understand why people criticize the Long Night for not implementing good strategy but give the Battle of the Bastards a pass.

      7. Well, I think the storyline was both rushed and unnecessary. They seemed to want to set Arya and Sansa against one another, and then have them reconcile, but they didn’t have the time, so the whole thing took place over three episodes.

      8. The best scenes are the ones that develop characters and advance the plot. I don’t understand why you continue to dismiss the plot, as if it’s unimportant. It’s not. I would say plot is just as important as developing its characters. Yes, character moments in season 8 also advanced the plot more than the previous seasons, but I don’t see that as a bad thing. Character moments are still character moments, and season 8 had some of he best. It’s funny, though, that you wouldn’t rate an episode under 8.0, whereas I would rate two episodes a 7.0, though I’m judging by GOT standards.

      8b. I believe you told me this before, and I will say to you now what I said to you back then, you have absolutely no idea why people watched GOT from the beginning. It could have been the story, for all you know, or the medieval fantasy setting. And you’re wrong, characters in season 8 were not pushed aside for the plot. Season 8 never forgot about the characters, not once, which is why we were given some of the greatest character moments in the show

        Quote  Reply

    114. kevin1989,

      Knowing the difference between rushed and fast paced isn’t a prerequisite for them to do their jobs. I see no evidence whatsoever that they are any more knowledgeable than you are. I do no with absolute certainty that I know the difference between rushed and fast paced. I’ve seen rushed stories, I’ve seen fast paced stories. GOT season 8 was fast paced.

      A fact will always be a fact. It will never become an opinion, no matter how much you might wish it.

        Quote  Reply

    115. Mr Derp,

      Alex Graves, the director of the infamous Sept scene, stated that the sex between Jaime and Cersei was consensual and not rape. We’re talking about a man who’s worked on the show and directed the actual scene. Are we supposed to close our eyes and accept his version of the events, or are we actually allowed to use our brains and come to the correct conclusion ourselves? Just because you’re ignorant on the subject matter at hand doesn’t mean the rest of us our. I know the difference between rushed and fast paced, whether you like it or not. Also, you are the last poster on this site that knows anything about respect.

        Quote  Reply

    116. The LightKing,

      Yes, the Last Kingdom is another example of a show that’s fast paced, and not rushed. And I agree with your take on plot armor. The Last Kingdom spoilers:

      In the battle at the end of season 1, Skorpa taunts Uhtred with the severed head of his loved one, much like Ramsay killing Rickon in front of Jon. Both men break ranks and attack, only Jon’s actions almost make them lose, whereas Uhtred’s is the key to them winning. Between the two, GOT was much more realistic, except it’s the one that gets all the criticism.

        Quote  Reply

    117. Young Dragon: Alex Graves, the director of the infamous Sept scene, stated that the sex between Jaime and Cersei was consensual and not rape. We’re talking about a man who’s worked on the show and directed the actual scene. Are we supposed to close our eyes and accept his version of the events, or are we actually allowed to use our brains and come to the correct conclusion ourselves?

      Einstein made a lot of mistakes too. Does that mean you know more about physics than Einstein?

      And Alex actually said, “Ultimately, it was meant to be consensual. [The writers] tried to complicate it a little more with her rejecting his new hand and the state of things.”

      So, it’s more complicated than you are leading on, even though I agree that, if it was supposed to be consensual, they should’ve done a better job conveying that onscreen. It looked like rape. Based on the interview, it sounds like there wasn’t enough communication between the writers and the director to make it clear what was/wasn’t supposed to be conveyed.

      Here’s a link to the entire article: https://www.vulture.com/2014/04/game-of-thrones-director-on-the-rape-sex-scene.html#comments.

      That scene was a total clusterfuck, but unfortunately, it has nothing to do with pacing or rushed storytelling, or proving that you know more about it than anyone, but thanks for trying. I have to admit that I stopped taking your comments seriously a while ago anyway. They’re kind of funny in a depressing sort of way.

      I know plenty about respect. I just have no respect for you because you’ve proven that you deserve none.

        Quote  Reply

    118. Is The Last Kingdom a good comparison? I remember that show when it started on BB2, it averaged something like 2.5 million viewers per episode (in the UK) and got cancelled after 2 series. Netflix had to rescue it. Only a fraction of the GOT fandom even watched it, and people didn’t like the lead character if I recall (I certainly didn’t and bailed after 2 episodes). Hard to call the millions upon millions of GOT fans hypocritical based on that.

        Quote  Reply

    119. Mr Derp,

      I never claimed to know more about directing than Marshall, but knowing the difference between fast paced and rushing has nothing to do with directing. That has more to do with writing, and there’s no indication whatsoever that he knows any more about it than you do.

      “It became consensual in the end.” That is a direct quote from Graves regarding the sept scene, and his statement is dead wrong. I have no problem pointing that out, the same with Marshall’s incorrect statement. And this statement shows that directors aren’t always knowledgeable about the things they are directing. You haven’t proven that Marshall’s view holds more wait than mine, especially since I gave a detailed explanation and Marshall did not. You’re allowing your bias against the show to cloud your judgement.

      It’s odd that you no longer take my posts seriously. Aren’t you the one who said that Jon not wanting to have sex with Danerys and yet continuing to call her his queen was a contradiction? Because, apparently, you can’t follow a monarch without wanting to fuck them, or something. That makes perfect sense, lol.

      You don’t think people deserve respect because they share a different opinion as you? That’s the most immature thing I’ve ever heard.

        Quote  Reply

    120. Young Dragon,

      Well, he has written a few screenplays, so he probably knows a bit about writing to be fair. I know he wrote The Descent which was very well reviewed. He’s written a few ropey screenplays as well, most screenwriters have at one time or another.

        Quote  Reply

    121. Young Dragon: You haven’t proven that Marshall’s view holds more wait than mine

      It’s weight, and I never had any interest in proving anything about Marshall. You’re the one claiming that you know better than the professionals. You were also the one to bring up Alex Graves’ directing, not me. The burden of proof is on you since you’re the one making outrageous claims and you haven’t proven anything in that regard. Normally, I don’t subscribe to the Stannis Baratheon School of Grammar rules, but you need to know the basic difference between weight and wait if you’re going to make outrageous claims like you know better than professionals do.

      You’re a talker. You talk yourself up all the time. How many shows have you directed or written? Can I watch or read them? Do you have any proof that you know better than the professionals or do you expect me to just take your word for it because you say so?

      Young Dragon: You don’t think people deserve respect because they share a different opinion as you? That’s the most immature thing I’ve ever heard.

      LOL. I discuss things with people I disagree with all the time around here in light-hearted and respectful manners and you almost certainly know that. If you think my lack of respect for you has anything to do with simply not sharing the same view on a fictional tv show, then you haven’t been paying attention…at all. That doesn’t surprise me though.

        Quote  Reply

    122. Mr Derp,

      Like I said, knowing the difference between rushed and fast paced is not a prerequisite to directing. There is no evidence whatsoever that Marshall knows the difference any more than you do. I’ve already explained the difference and have given examples. That’s the difference between Marshall and me. I went into detail, he did not. If you’re going to accept the simplistic words of Marshall rather than my detailed explanation, that’s your right. But rather than piggyback off of a man who hasn’t proven his knowledge on the subject, why not try to come up with an argument of your own.

      It’s called a typo. People make them all the time when discussing with me, as I’m sure you have done the same. I don’t feel the need to belittle their mistakes because we’re all human and I have made the same mistake in the past, I actually respect the people I converse with, and my argument actually stands on its own without resorting to cheap, hollow victories.

      I have seen you mock, belittle, and disrespect many posters on this site, not just me. There was only one time I actually deserved this treatment, a time of which I’ve apologized for. I’m sure you remember the time I’m talking about. I was openly antagonistic and was the root cause for our conversation becoming hostile. However, our conversations that came after made me aware that the first discussion was always going to turn hostile, because that’s just the type of poster you are. I believe that you even went so far as to suggest I was mentally ill for liking season 8 one time. This doesn’t excuse my behavior, of course, but I have decided that I will no longer stoop down to your level.

        Quote  Reply

    123. The LightKing,

      If the mods didn’t notice you had 2 accounts you went into great lengths to make 2 accounts. At least you use 2 different emails. And second you went into great lengths to make sure the mods wouldn’t notice it. Like a VPN or making use of 2 different devices (like mobile and pc) and also connect to two different internet sources, else the mods would see it.
      I have a bit of background (not much but I understand the basics) of how networking works.

      Ten Bears:
      Fact or opinion ?

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFdJza0AbeA

      at 0:40 – 0:48

      Fake news!

        Quote  Reply

    124. Young Dragon,

      1. True, I agree. That’s why I think Martin does this playing with the WW (I don’t know a better word for it) and keep them in the dark for multiple reasons. The first is, it keeps it horrific, we see what they bring but not themselves, the things we read about hardhome is just horrific even when we don’t see them. The second thing is that I think he does this also to not overdone the WWs, because I think in dreams we get much more skirmish battles with the WW, that’s what I mean with the LN, it was a big battle but it was just one, it was a beautiful episode I agree, but I think Martin (especially when Martin writes a book not a tv show) will do the ww action south of the wall. I expect to see the wall action, at least one castle before WF, WF itself but it’s lost. The journey south that is shortbraked by I think Greywater Watch, we will see the reeds and the background of the tower of Joy there. And then it returns with Daenerys coming to the help around the neck/trident. Or my other theory (yes theory I don’t know if it’s going to happen) is that the WW is not the real treat, we know now at the end of Dance that many more horrific creatures are going to make a play into winds, including Krakens. What if the books will go another route that the real evil is the one that controls all those creatures. The great Other? I still think it’s the weirwood trees, which I think for a book is interesting as a storyline, but for a tv show it’s better to stick with the WWs.
      2. Same here I don’t read them. I loved Nolan’s batman trilogy (all 3 my favorite is in fact the last I love the emotion there and I like slow paced storytelling). Same with Logan brilliant movie, I loved the character moments together. Well with X-men it was, Jane was the fan favorite of the whole saga (together with Wolverine). Jane would even be responsible for the death of every living being on earth, Logan killed her with his claws through her heart and end her live. About stories, google it and you get a lot, even look at petra’s video that she posted on this site at the end of season 8 (or 8×05?). But Macbeth is one, Michael Corleone godfather, Harvey Dent dark knight, Ed Norton fightclub, Lex Luther in the superman universe, superman himself in the latest movies, Annakin in SW universe. Many more. The hero becomes the villain is one of the most favorite storytelling there is. Daenerys is not the first and not the last. And if it comes to daring, Supernatural is even more daring now than GoT was, it upset 1/3 of the fans not because about a fan-favorite, but because of they felt their faith was attacked, who they are as a person.

      They made God himself the biggest villain of the story

      2b. No it doesn’t fall in the same category, you named events where the villain overcome the hero, the heroes got killed and the villains are superior, it’s in its core unjustice (except Joffrey but it came with a price that Tyrion was imprisoned, and it was not really a surprise because after the leeches we knew Robb, Balon and Joffrey would die), with the death of Dany it’s the opposite, justice is done. And also all those events happen because the hero “fucked up” themselves. Ned was too honorable, Oberyn was to much busy with pride, Robb fucked up because he went against his oath. Dany didn’t fucked up in the sense they fucked up.
      3. Yes but the WW storyline didn’t have the right build up. Yes we had 7 seasons of minor build up and establish who the WW were. Then the wall came down, which told the fans: Shit has hit the fan now. It upped the game, telling us that what we saw in season 1 till 7 will be even bigger in season 8, they went with bigger with battle, but that’s not what the WW story made so great, it was the horror, and they did not come through with that. In season 8 the WW story didn’t really upgraded, we got just one battle. It’s a bit like promising a big cake to your fans but give just a small bite. (I don’t know the better wording for what I’m looking for). If they didn’t want more to tell about the WW itself and only a battle, they should have made the breach of the wall as the cliffhanger of the season. And they should have made the whole show 7 seasons build up to: When the wall comes down, we’re fucked.
      4. As with my work: The fault is never the guest. Same with here, the fault is not the viewer. It’s the job of the writer to put everything in place and feel right. And if season 8 want to make a big plotchange about Missandei’s death how it affected Dany, there should be at least 1 scene prior to that that shows us the bond between them in the same season. It’s just a common writing rule. I mean we got Grey Worm and Missandei together a lot in season 8, why? Because than we knew Grey worm cared for Missandei.
      3c. Season 8 of GoT was the opposite it was rushed and slow paced. That it was slow paced is easily see in what slow paced and fast paced mean. Fast paced mean, many scenes after each other, in which every scene is short of time. Maybe 2 or 3 minute per scene like the dark knight, it moves from one scene to the next. GoT season 8 was slow paced. It had scenes of 10 minutes. That’s the opposite of fast paced. The battle of WF shows us the season was slow paced. We got a 80 minute battle. If season 8 was fast paced the battle would have taken 10/20 max with many many scenes.
      4. I know the death hit her hard. I can deduct that. But it was missing a crucial scene in the last season. I’m not reaching, I watched a lot of tv shows and movies, and I know some basic rules here. Even D&D admitted that rule. Remember season2 and 3 etc where they said episode 1 could feel like that we already know what is happening but that they need to establish every situation again for the season to come.
      5. I agree with your interpretation. But the writers of a show should make a big plotpoint like Dany’s turn not open to interpretation. Look at it if they did that with the red wedding and we still debating with: What was the real reason why Walder killed the Starks there? They made it pretty clear in the show itself, same with Ned’s beheading. It was not, fans can interpretate these events how they like it, no there was a clear answer. So yes I agree with your interpretation, that’s the same as me, but as you see online, many have different views on her change, even D&D have a different view than us.
      6. Breaking bad never build up to Walt becoming a Kingpin, that’s not what that show was about. It was about Walters ego, and the battle of that against his family. It was that he didn’t want others to make his product, not to be the kingpin.
      6b. The tactic was used in real life of BotB so this point is invalid of yours. There was a tactic. The LN didn’t.
      7. It was unnecessary, it could be done shorter and more to the point. Sansa and Arya knew who LF was, made plan together and overthrow him. Could be done in just 2 episodes.
      8. For me it’s the character moments the most.
      8b. I know a lot of people who watch GoT which I talk with, so I at least know why they watch it. And I look at why people watch it on this site, 90% is because of the characters.

      ps I like discussing with you.

        Quote  Reply

    125. Young Dragon,

      True, it’s fact based if a season is fast paced or rushed. Fact paced mean many and many short scenes of 1/3 minutes. That is fast paced. Like Dark Knight, there are no long scenes. (compared to Dark Knight rises which is slow paced). Slow paced is what season 8 was. It had many scenes over 5 minutes. The LN itself is prove that it’s slow paced. It shows us a long battle instead of short battle. Or did we forget the scene where Tyrion moved into KL in episode 6? Very slow.
      So if it contains of long scenes which state it’s slow paced. What was the problem then? Yes it was rushed, it moved over scenes that normally they would be moved over.

      ps. Need to go to work now. Rest of the comments I will react to later.

        Quote  Reply

    126. 99% of the main cast and crew: “I stand behind the finale.”
      GoT S8 naysayers: *radio silence*

      One old director and one or two non-starring actors for supporting characters: “it may have been a bit rushed”
      GoT S8 naysayers: THAT CLINCHES IT!

        Quote  Reply

    127. Farimer123,

      I never said I wasn’t behind the finale itself. You make up fallacies the whole time.
      I just point out the objective facts about the last season. Not if people should feel like that’s a problem or not. In the end I just enjoy the last season even with it’s short comings, I did that with every season of GoT and with every show I watch.

      And instead of using nicknames like *GoT season 8 naysayers*, try to use real arguments (which you clearly are out of) and as if a nickname let you win a argument, it’s not. In fact it shows that you are out of arguments and this is the last resort to go to. You’re out of objective arguments, so only thing left is calling a group that didn’t like season 8 as much as you do as ‘Naysayers”.

      And calling Neil Marshall just a director, and Conleth Hill as “just a actor for a secondary character” shows how far you trying to reach to make your point personal (instead of objective). And you seem to look over the interview I gave (was even a video) of GRRM stating season 8 was rushed, the creator of the story. Yes they are not the stars of the show, but they know what they talking about, they are in the field for decades. And it’s even courageous of them to give their critic of GoT season 8 when they worked for the show, it makes their future career difficult, this could result in future producers not hiring them because they could give critic to the show and hurt their product, they didn’t care about that, they rather want to be honest about their opinion and making it more difficult for themselves to be hired in future projects than keep their critic for themselves. (Saying in my country: Never bite the hand that feed you, that counts also for this line of work, even when you disagree you don’t say that, you still defend the product your worked on)

      And in the end, objective facts are not a competition of which director, actor, star etc said about season 8, it’s not personal. It’s the same if people are going to debate “1+1=3” even if the stars defend that, doesn’t make it true. There are objective arguments from people in t.

      https://pics.me.me/hey-im-the-facts-did-you-want-me-acts-haha-12586789.png

        Quote  Reply

    128. Young Dragon: I have decided that I will no longer stoop down to your level.

      Yes, it can be most challenging to stoop down to “my level” when you’re up on your high horse all the time 😉 Good one!

      Young Dragon: There is no evidence whatsoever that Marshall knows the difference any more than you do.

      Thing is, I never claimed that I did though. You’re the one making those claims. There is no evidence that you know any better at all even though you keep regurgitating that you do. If you did provide evidence, it certainly wasn’t very convincing.

      Young Dragon: It’s called a typo. People make them all the time when discussing with me, as I’m sure you have done the same. I don’t feel the need to belittle their mistakes because we’re all human and I have made the same mistake in the past,

      I already addressed this in my last post. It seems you missed it somehow…or went out of your way to miss it, so I’ll post it a second time for you. I normally could care less about grammar. I care in this instance specifically because you can’t act like you’re better than everyone else and then make an elementary grammar mistake like that. You opened that door and set yourself up for that. You have no one to blame but yourself. It’s like when someone says “your an idiot” and types the wrong version of “you’re”.

      And respect doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means. You called me ignorant in your first reply to me even though I hadn’t called you any names, but uh huh. Very respectful! Oh the horror! I’ve been personally attacked! I’m a victim! Save me Jon Snow!

      Young Dragon: I actually respect the people I converse with, and my argument actually stands on its own without resorting to cheap, hollow victories.

      You don’t really believe this, do you? One of the reasons why you and I had a problem initially was because you were bragging and declaring victories for yourself even though no one agreed with you. It’s the very definition of a hollow victory. It’s amazing how much you try and spin things after the fact. You’re doing the same thing on this thread. You’re making claims to things that you haven’t been able to back up at all.

      Young Dragon: There was only one time I actually deserved this treatment, a time of which I’ve apologized for. I’m sure you remember the time I’m talking about. I was openly antagonistic and was the root cause for our conversation becoming hostile.

      You claim that I was right for not putting up with your nonsense the first time, which I agree with 100%, yet back then you were just as defensive about your actions as you are now, claiming that you were the victim in all this. I give you credit for apologizing well after the fact, but you just started acting the same way afterwards, rendering your apology completely meaningless and insincere. You also didn’t apologize until after I called you out. This sounds like a re-run.

      Bottom line, this discussion started because you claimed that you knew better than the professionals who actually do this for a living. If you’re going to make an outrageous claim like that then you better be able to prove it otherwise you should expect to hear about it. You haven’t proven that you do though, even though you’re constantly claiming that you have. I asked you if you have any way to prove it, or have any works or creations that we can read or watch to show how superior you are with pacing and rushed plots compared to the professionals and you ignored that part, so obviously that’s a no. You can’t prove it.

      Just take the L and move on.

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    129. Mr Derp,

      I don’t know what you mean by high horse. All I’m doing is stating my argument using facts and logic. I don’t understand why you can’t do the same without resorting to childish taunts.

      If you admit you’re ignorant about the topic at hand, I’m wondering why you’re getting involved at all. And I gave a detailed explanation as to why GOT season 8 was fast paced and not rushed, whereas Marshall provided none, and yet you seem convinced by his insubstantial and unsupported position. My argument is much more convincing than his, because he hasn’t provided an argument.

      I ignored your pitiful excuse because it has absolutely no bearing whatsoever. I never said I was perfect and I never claimed to be better than anyone. I’ve said this before, but I don’t consider my arguments to be all that impressive. They only seem that way because your arguments are incredibly weak. When you’re not taunting, insulting, and ridiculing the other posters and are actually providing arguments, the best you seem to be able to come up with are “Jon not wanting to have sex with Danerys and yet calls her his queen is a contradiction” or How can an injured dragon not be able to dodge an attack he doesn’t see coming but a healthy dragon can dodge an attack he sees coming?” Regardless, pointing out typos in a vain attempt to distract from the weaknesses of your argument is rather petty.

      Ignorant is an adjective used to describe your lack of knowledge about something. You yourself admitted you don’t know much about the subject. It was not an insult. You, however, laughed off my rejection of Marshall’s view of season 8, trying to dismiss it and treating my point as if it was a joke. That is disrespect. And let’s not forget the time you suggested I had mental issues for having a different opinion than you.

      Your and mine problem stems from the hostile tone I took in our first encounter. What I said wasn’t the problem. It was the how. I still stand behind my arguments. And they aren’t hollow victories. I managed to give a detailed explanation to support my argument. All you have are the words of a man who has given us no reason to believe he’s knowledgeable on the subject. My position is stronger than yours. If you want to prove me wrong, you’re going to have to try a lot harder.

      You couldn’t be more incorrect. I have been very calm, I didn’t use unnecessary harsh language or make up false motivations behind your position. I am arguing against your stance, I am not arguing against you personally. And let’s not forget, you have been instigating these debates and have been regularly trying to get a rise out of me. You instigated this very discussion, for example. Don’t act the victim. I was at fault the first time. You were at fault every time thereafter.

      He’s a professional director, and as I said before, knowing the difference between fast paced and rushed is not a prerequisite for him doing his job. I know the difference, as I gave a detailed explanation explaining the difference. Marshall gave none, and until he does, my stance will always be better than his.

      I will take the L once you provide an argument that is better than my own. I’m afraid you have a long way to go before you do that. Until you do, I’ll take the W.

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    130. Young Dragon: I don’t consider my arguments to be all that impressive

      I’m torn between the indignity of agreeing with you for once, and enjoying a good laugh at your expense over the blatant contradiction that this statement implies. Especially considering you’ve spent this entire thread acting impressed with yourself and claiming that your arguments prove that you know more about story pacing than a professional director who’s responsible for some of the best GoT episodes every made. Your logic is incredibly circular and wholly unconvincing, but I’m glad you enjoyed it.

      Young Dragon: You, however, laughed off my rejection of Marshall’s view of season 8, trying to dismiss it and treating my point as if it was a joke. That is disrespect.

      It IS a joke and you disrespected Marshall and continue to do so. You’re saying that you know more about pacing than Neil Marshall, a professional director who has directed some of the best GoT episodes in it’s entire run, “Blackwater” and “Watchers on the Wall”. He isn’t here to defend himself against your claim that you know better than he does and you haven’t backed up your claims at all. Your arguments amounted to “no, it wasn’t rushed, it was built up”. Just vague generalities. I asked you twice now if you could show me the tv show, book, movie, etc.. you’ve made that shows how much more knowledgeable you are, yet you haven’t been able to. The article also only has a snippet of Marshall’s opinion. He isn’t here on WOTW making statement after statement detailing his opinion like you are, so I think you’re being a bit unfair and dismissive to Marshall.

      Pacing is a subjective topic anyway. I would say there is objectively slow or fast pacing in the sense that we can objectively measure how long it takes to move from one plot point to the next, or how long the narrative sticks to one topic or another. However as soon as you start assigning a value of “good” or “bad” to it, then you’re walking into subjective territory. Some people don’t mind slower pacing, some people hate fast pacing, etc…It’s probably more productive to just learn to form your own opinion instead of trying to lean towards some imaginary “truth” that you’re forcing upon everyone.

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    131. “… the whole Varys LF storyline is left hanging and not ended, it started in season 1, but it didn’t get a proper ending.”

      Comments like this have me wondering if other viewers actually watched the same show I did. Varys and LF were rivals in the Court of King Robert. King Robert was an inattentive drunk who left ruling to his Small Council and Hand, thus creating the perfect environment for ambitious men to become outright rivals.

      After Robert’s (unlamented!) death, the Lannisters begin consolidating Royal power within their family, squeezing out any opportunity for real rivalry. Cersei blatantly threatens LF’s life, after which he finds numerous excuses to leave King’s Landing (and to plot against her). Cersei connives with The High Sparrow to trash LF’s brothel(s), thus depriving him of the power which he had derived from their monetary and informational incomes. Varys finds himself unwittingly implicated in the patricide of Tywin Lannister, and flees to Pentos; his network of spies is swiftly co-opted by Cersei’s right-hand man Qyburn, who runs it better. Thus ended any rivalry between these former spymasters, long before either character was executed.

      “…as Conleth hill stated, there should have been a scene in season 8 where Varys talked about LF to give that storyline closure.”

      An actor wanting more lines does not actually support any argument, other than the obvious one: actors always want more lines! 🙂

      “GoT started with its first season, people love the first season and though it was unique, but why?”

      How can the word “slow” possibly be used to describe Season One? Here is what happens to just one character:

      – We meet Dany. She has a creepy older brother, who barters her as chattel to a barbarian warlord for a vague promise of the Iron Throne;

      – Warlord rapes Dany. After one very hands-on session with her handmaiden, she deftly seduces Drogo; within a few episodes, the former rape victim is calling her former rapist “my sun and stars.”

      – Dany is with child. Dany participates in barbarian ritual with horse’s heart. Dany loses child.

      – Dany, with Jorah’s help, escapes King Robert’s assassination plot.

      – Dany maneuvers husband into killing her creepy brother. Dany kills her husband after he’s obviously of no further value to her.

      – Using blood magic (the human sacrifice of Mirri Maaz Duur) Dany hatches three dragons.

      Also in Season One: four male characters are introduced as major players: the aforementioned Viserys, Drogo, and Robert, along with dim-bulb Ned. All are dead before the season ends.

      We can use many words to describe that Season, but “slow” is not one of them.

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    132. Mr Derp,

      Again, I have no idea what you’re talking about. I was not impressed with my arguments at all. I mean, why would I be? You said that you don’t know the difference between fast paced and rushed, so my winning an argument against someone who doesn’t know the subject matter isn’t impressive at all. As for Neil Marshall, he is a great director, I never said otherwise. Being a great director does not mean he knows everything, and you haven’t provided a shred of evidence as to whether he knows the difference between fast paced and rushed anymore than you do. Like I said before, I’m not going to act like a sheep and accept his word blindly. I used my own brain to come to the right conclusion.

      You claimed once before that I don’t know what disrespect means, but it has become apparent that you are the ignorant one. Disagreeing with my argument is fine, but calling it a joke is disrespectful. And I have never shown Neil Marshall an ounce of disrespect. I didn’t call him names, I didn’t mock or taunt him in anyway. I simply disagree with him. I even said that fast pacing and rushing are two terms easy to mix up and that I don’t blame him for it. That is the exact opposite of disrespect.

      I’ve said this once, and I’ll say it as many times as I have to. Knowing the difference between fast paced and rushing is not a prerequisite for a director to do his job. The fact that Marshall only said the small snippet is exactly my point. You’re simply going to accept his word even though there’s no substance to his argument to back it up. I gave a detailed explanation as to why season 8 was fast paced and not rushed, and it wasn’t vague at all. And no, I don’t need to have written a book or produced a television series to know the difference, any more than I would need to be a doctor to know the flu when I see it.

      I 100% agree that whether or not you enjoy a fast paced story or slow paced story is entirely subjective. But like I said, fast paced and rushing is not the same thing. A rushed story is an objective criticism, as it means the writer didn’t put in the right amount of work to build up the storyline. If you didn’t like season 8 because you prefer slower paced stories, I have absolutely no problem with that. But people are incorrect when they call it rushed, as it was fast paced.

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    133. Young Dragon: I have never shown Neil Marshall an ounce of disrespect

      You’re not respectfully disagreeing with him though. You specifically said that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. That IS disrespect, considering what he does for a living. You don’t have to actually call someone a name in order to be disrespectful. It comes in many forms. You had the opportunity to say that you simply disagreed with him, but instead you decided to claim that he didn’t know what he was talking about, which is tantamount to calling his argument a joke. You claimed that me calling your argument a joke was the definition of disrespect, so you can go ahead stop claiming that you weren’t disrespectful now. Unless you want to continue looking like a hypocrite, of course.

      You also said this:
      “I don’t know much about Neil Marshall, so I’m not simply going to accept his view on it.”

      You are now telling me that he’s a great director, but because you don’t “know much about him” you’re just assuming he doesn’t know what he’s talking about when it comes to pacing? Well, I don’t know much about you and you certainly haven’t directed anything, so going by your own rules, nobody should take your word for anything either.

      I honestly think that you just didn’t like that he wasn’t endlessly praising season 8 and you felt the need to lash out and go into defensive mode. It’s been your MO ever since the show ended.

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    134. I did mention this before, but Neil Marshall is a professional screenwriter and editor, so he does know something about writing and pacing. It’s still fine to disagree with him about S8, but his opinion isn’t entirely without merit (same for Peter Dinklage etc, their opinions are valid). I just wanted to point that out. As you were.

      Oh and I hope everyone has a nice Christmas. X

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    135. Mr Derp,

      If I said, “Neil Marshall doesn’t know what he’s talking about,” you would be right, that would have been a highly disrespectful tone. Explaining why someone is incorrect is not disrespectful. Not at all. And I didn’t treat him like his argument was a joke. I didn’t laugh it off and dismiss it entirely like you did to me. I simply disagreed with his statement and listed my very clear reasons for doing so. And he’s a professional director. That does not make him a professional at knowing the difference between fast paced and rushing. You don’t have to take my word for it if you don’t want to. But at the end of the day, my argument will actually have substance. Yours won’t.

      I couldn’t care less whether Marshall enjoyed season 8 or not, or anyone else for that matter. That’s not the issue here. He simply made an incorrect statement which I respectfully disagreed with. You said before that it wasn’t fair for me to argue about something Neil Marshall said when he’s not here to defend himself. Well, I’m not the one who brought him into this. That would be yourself and Kevin. Maybe you should try coming up with your own arguments rather than piggyback off of someone else’s.

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