Maisie Williams on “a lot of death” in season 8; plus Inside Game of Thrones: A Story in Camera Work!

Maisie Williams Sophie Turner Arya Sansa Season 8 EW

Maisie Williams doesn’t mince words in her new interview with Entertainment Weekly. “There’s a lot of death this year,” she says. But on the upside, she confirms that the final season will contain plenty of callbacks to the show’s first season.

“After reading the scripts I went back and watched season 1 again because so much of it refers back to that season…There are so many scenes that will look similar. And also I watched just to remind myself of the arc I’ve taken already. I wanted Arya to go full circle and try for some kind of normalcy like when she was younger. Basically this year it’s like she has a dual personality — there are so many emotions and memories that come flooding back when you’re with your family and the things that you fight for become very different, yet she’s also remaining on this path to try and kill Cersei and remembering her list and getting closer to that. So there’s this split with Arya between trying to be who she wants to be — getting back to the naïveté and innocence with her family — and unfinished business.”

Williams confirms to EW that Arya and Sansa are “very much united in the final season,” and was surprisingly open about where things are headed this year for the sisters. Also the actress shared a humorous but less charitable view of Jon’s actions in season 7. “Last season it was really tough for Sansa because Jon was thinking with his penis and it kind of made Sansa look bitter. This season you see Arya teaming with Sansa and sometimes calling out Jon.”

Check out EW for more Maisie and the end of Game of Thrones!


Inside Game of Thrones: A Story in Camera Work

In the latest “Inside” video, HBO takes us behind the scenes with longtime camera operator Sean Savage, as he shares what he’s loved about being behind the camera for 8 seasons.

No new season 8 footage, but a delightful peek at the making of GoT, that deepens our appreciation of the craft involved in making it. I particular like the bird’s eye view of that infamous Battle of the Bastards crushing shot.

71 responses

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    1. So now they want us to think there is drama between Jon and Arya? Okay. The passive aggressive side eyeing wasn’t enough for Sansa, now it rubbed off on Arya.

      GOT is back, baby! I haven’t bitched about the writing in years!

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    2. I love all these behind the scenes HBO vids.

      There’s nothing better on TV than the Stark sisters and the Lannister brothers – best sibling duos ever.

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    3. Sigh. More no one listens to Sansa fake drama. Because seeing it in seasons 6 and 7 just wasn’t enough. Now featuring Arya out of the blue suggesting Jon making an alliance with someone with fire breathing weapons to save everyone was “thinking with his penis”.

      Yeah…that’s gonna be a no from me dawg.

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    4. Sansa looked pretty bitter in Season 7 way before Jon bent the knee to Dany.

      Not sure what Maise Williams is talking about

      But Sansa looked bitter in 701 before Jon made any decisions with his pennis

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    5. I do not understand what Maisie is talking about.

      Arya’s own arc in season 7 certainly didn’t help if Sansa was feeling “bitter”. Sansa and Arya went back and forth over Jon being the one in charge with Arya suggesting Sansa shouldn’t be questioning him or allowing the Northern Lords to question him. If Sansa was supposedly “bitter” was it not more because of that than anything Jon was doing thousands of miles away?

      I see no plot reason from season 7 for Maisie to make those comments, so I am pretty confused what she’s talking about to be honest.

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    6. Thank you for sharing, Sue. The very idea of Arya teaming with Sansa has proven controversial. I even saw a YT video about the whinging that has erupted on the Internet today. Many Arya fans dislike Sansa and vice versa. Which is ironic since Maisie + Sophie=Mophie. I’m never critical of Sansa…I speak in jest. But seriously, since the sisters reconciled last season, probably having shared their long, painful sagas, they should bond. And since they have complementary strengths and weaknesses, they could be potentially unstoppable. My only fear is that since Sansa has, in my opinion, a superiority complex, will she treat Arya as an inferior? She did say Arya was the strongest person she knew, but will she treat her as such?

      I cannot envision Arya in league with Sansa against Jon and Dany. Will she sometimes differ with Jon–surely, yes. Arya has a mind and powers that let her see things others don’t (except Bran). I expect she’ll be unhappy about, say, his abdicating his kingship or falling into Cersei’s trap. But it would be shocking if Arya isn’t as dedicated to Jon as she was in Episode 1.02 and all the books. I wager we’ll see them fighting side-by-side. Jon said you meet your brothers on the battlefield. Well, Needle allowed her to become a warrior, so he’ll re-meet his sister. Otherwise known as ASNAWP.

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    7. Stark Raven' Rad,

      Can you explain “ASNAWP” to me? Is this something new? I took a hiatus from the fandom and come back to all new acronyms! Or maybe it’s not new and my fandom doesn’t run as deep as yours.

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    8. I hope Arya and Jon have a team building opportunity to fight alongside one another. In a “save each others asses” kind of way.

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    9. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      “ASNAWP” was unintentionally coined by talvikorppi, who commented last year that she didn’t want S8 to feature “Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess fantasies.” However, some of us – including yours truly – liked the term so much that we embraced it, and use the acronym ASNAWP = Arya.

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    10. House Monty:

      “….Not sure what Maise Williams is talking about

      But Sansa looked bitter in 701 before Jon made any decisions with his penis.”

      ______

      MW: “Last season it was really tough for Sansa because Jon was thinking with his penis and it kind of made Sansa look bitter.”

      Maisie, no!. There was enough contrived conflict last season from outside influences on Sansa’s state of mind as a consequence of LF’s meddling. Jon Snow’s penis did not make Sansa look bitter. Give the little fella a break.

      If Jon Snow’s Penis (JSP) has such an outsized role in the North’s executive decision-making process and will determine the North’s very political trajectory, shouldn’t it get separate billing in the episodes’ opening credits?

      Seriously, like you, I don’t see a nexus between Jon Snow’s junk and Sansa’s bitterness.

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    11. Stark Raven' Rad,

      Lol. Same here. I don’t get this “rivalry” among fans either. Especially not with the Starks. They’re a pack. And after all they’ve lost and been through, I wouldn’t bet one penny on anyone who is trying to get between them. That was Littlefinger’s big mistake last season, and we all know how that ended…
      As for Jon and Arya, I don’t buy this interpretation of Maisie’s words either. She’s very careful with her words, as everyone, yes, but why has Arya to be “in league” with Sansa against Jon and Dany? He is part of the pack. He always was and he always will be. That doesn’t mean, his sisters (!) won’t be calling him out on his decisions or teasing him about his new girlfriend. That’s kind of the prerogative of sisters.

      Nevertheless I think their reunion won’t be the happy fairy tale kind of reunion we all might have in our minds. It will be bittersweet as the rest of the reunions were.

      Sweet, because the two siblings who were closest to each other finally get to see each other again. Jon always loved and accepted Arya for whom she was, and vice versa. They always had each others backs and will continue to do so. But of course their relationship will be different, because these two are different. It was a loooooong road that led to the same castle, and both changed on their way. There are several points of disagreement now. And that’s the bitter part. First of all, I think Jon will be determined to keep Arya safe, to protect her – as he wants to protect Sansa. That’s not only his prerogative as their big brother, but also as their king. And of course Arya, our favourite little mass murderer, will have even more issues with this than Sansa, and she won’t be shy about it. On the other hand, Jon’s honour might have a problem or two with Arya’s thirst for vengeance. He has responsibilities now. People are looking up to him. As their king – or Daenery’s Warden of the North – he is bound to justice not revenge. Having a little sister who sets out to kill everyone who crossed her, might not be helpful… Also: Jon is a warrior himself. He knows the toll this trade takes, and I can’t imagine he wants that for his little sister.
      Adding to this, I think Jon will be in for a surprise when he finds out about the new gained understanding between Sansa and Arya. And this won’t be for his alliance with Dany. Sansa won’t believe for a second that Cersei will really come to their help. She will call them all out for their stupidity – and Arya will be having her back. Fortunately I don’t think this will cause a big rift between them, because a) Sansa is of course right and they will soon learn about Cersei’s betrayal, so the sisters can do a little mocking dance and sing: Nanananah! We told you so! Maybe even Bran joins in, that would be fun! And b) there will be simply no time because the NK will be knocking on their door. And nothing can strengthen the bond between two siblings more, than to fight a deadly enemy together on the walls of their ancestral home.
      I also have a strong feeling that Arya will be the one who helps Sansa to come around on the Jon and Dany are in love issue. “They will see you for what you are”, he told Dany, and this applies to no one better than Arya. With her faceless men abilities, she will be able to see very, very soon, that the dragon queen is legit and in love with her brother. For that alone she will give her some credit, and then there are also her dragons…
      Therefore the more interesting thing will be to see how everyone else copes with a Stark pack reunited, esp. a pack who has now a dragon queen in its tow…

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    12. I love how people hate on Sansa for Arya exercising her right to have her own opinion and express it. God forbid someone, especially a Stark, doesn’t agree with the snowflake special prince in everything he does. Why is it wrong for Arya to disagree on certain things with Jon? I’m guessing it’s related to Cersei whom Arya still has on her list. Sansa has said as far back as S6 that Cersei is a threat. Jon thought it BS then and still did in S7 when he believed whatever Cersei was selling. But a big shock to no one, Cersei lied. If that is what Arya has issues with, you go girl.

      Of course it’s just hilarious to me how much people get worked up over what actors say. Hasn’t the past taught people anything? This sounds just like the Sansa nonsense peddled and hyped for S6 and 7 that amounted to nothing but people having their panties in a twist.

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    13. Johanna van Locchum,

      “Nevertheless I think their reunion won’t be the happy fairy tale kind of reunion we all might have in our minds. It will be bittersweet as the rest of the reunions were.”

      _____
      Argghhh! Not the “b” word! 🤢

      Jon + Arya reunion has to be a bookend to their S1e2 scene together:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB9Ks-sL6So

      Arya can “call out” Jon Snow in later episodes o
      if necessary. But their first meeting has to be as good or better than Jon & Sansa’s S6 reunion, which I thought was extremely well done.

      Besides, according to the article:

      But on the upside, she confirms that the final season will contain plenty of callbacks to the show’s first season.

      “After reading the scripts I went back and watched season 1 again because so much of it refers back to that season…There are so many scenes that will look similar.”

      Jon & Arya shared one scene together, in WF in S1e2, after which Arya left for KL. What other callback to “similar scenes” could there be?

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    14. Sansa was bitter last season because Jon was thinking with his penis? What? So Jon went to Dragonstone last season because his penis told him to?

      Okay.

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    15. One of the callbacks i’m sure we will see in this season is the scene where cersei captured ned stark. In the main hall, when ned was confident that he had gold cloaks support on his back, cersei with help of little finger had already bought them, so they turned their back to ned and betrayed him. Same scene is my expectation from this season, but this time cersei is the one who will be betrayed and golden company will replace gold cloaks. Well, sercei will finnaly taste her own medicine.

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    16. All men think with their penis. We think with our penis and we know things.

      It is known.

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    17. I think all of what you say is true, it should be happy united Stark reunion. However when they find out he is a Targaryen or half anyway. The person you thought you knew is actually someone else, heir to the whole kingdom.

      Suddenly two Targaryen’s getting it on? Also Arya hasn’t seen him in years and finding all this out, including the fact he bent the knee will be a lot to take in and may create a bit of tension… which if it didn’t would be a bit silly.

      So lets see it play out.

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    18. I wouldn’t take her words too seriously. Sure there will be some clashing of egos at the start and of course the ‘The North’ remembers what befalls the Starks when they fall in love with someone from the outside – it hasn’t ended well in the past so I’m sure that’ll come up and cause some apprehension. Nothing a few hundred thousand undead coming at you won’t fix in a hurry.

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    19. Hello everyone. I don’t post often , since I don’t really have time but I have to add my thoughts on this one. I understand us fans have our expections of what we want and expect to happen. There is too much time between both the books and show. It’s easy to become set in our expectations. But we have to stick with the facts they give us too. It actually makes perfect sense, given the facts we have, and if we put our emotions aside. Of course Jon and Arya hold a special place for eachother, but Arya isn’t a kid anymore. The issue isn’t that Jon formed an alliance with Dany but that he gave her his kingdom.. The question for someone like Arya, who we know sees the truth in people is basically this: Is Dany the best person to rule the north? Was Jon’s choosing her to be
      queen (again this is a separate issue than having an alliance) purely for the sake of the north, or is Jon being in love with her cloud ing his judgment? Again, Arya sees right through the bs. It’s ok for her to do it with Sansa but not Jon? It doesn’t mean she doesn’t love Jon. And Arya teaming up with sansa in some petty feud? I don’t think so. I know it might be a disappointment for some fans, but maybe the sisters forming a wolfpack might be ultimately what the author himself is aiming for??? D and D are getting our favorite (and not favorite) characters to the same destination as George himself. Also, would Arya blindly follow Jon’s decision to form an alliance with Cercei. Because she has a soft spot for him? Again, what does Jon know about being her prisoner as sansa was. What does Jon know about being publicly humiliated, beaten and almost raped while being Cercei’s prisoner. Just like the sisters haven’t experienced the threat from the north, as Jon has. I can’t forget what Ygrette often told Jon: ” you know nothing, Jon Snow, you know nothing.” Were Ygrette’s words serving no purpose for the story? I don’ t think so. Again, just like I think Arya will do in the next season, we must separate our love for Jon from seeing all the facts.

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    20. So, I see the controversy brewing over Maisie’s thinking with his nether regions comment. Very young, very rich starlets have to be cautious about making Feminism a plaything of their careers and doing it in the service of fictional characters while more-or-less ignoring real women.

      Sansa is a character portrayed by the actor, Sophie. If Sansa the character looks bitter, then I imagine that it’s because Sophie the actor intended her to. To place that at the feet of a male character, Jon, whose portrayal doesn’t seem sexist, is maddening.

      Maybe Sansa is just bitter. Maybe she has a right to be. Maybe she lashes out at the innocent because she is bitter at being disabused of her belief that she is better than others. I think I recall Arya telling Sansa something along those lines.

      If Maisie wants to troll, then she can troll away! But, why must she use Feminism to do it? Why does Sophie do the same? Why must they always use feminism’s language to amuse themselves?

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    21. Johanna van Locchum:
      Stark Raven’ Rad,

      Lol. Same here. I don’t get this “rivalry” among fans either. Especially not with the Starks. They’re a pack. And after all they’ve lost and been through, I wouldn’t bet one penny on anyone who is trying to get between them. That was Littlefinger’s big mistake last season, and we all know how that ended…

      I think it is the polarity of the characters archetypes with a popularity contest mixed in.

      It is astonishing how if you talk positively about one, the counter negative is always to use the other to dismiss it, even if you don’t bring up the other at all. Each fan group sees their girl as the unique and special one that has suffered the most and deserves everything, and the other is a generic trope that is overused and unrealistic and should die. I supposed it is because these two are sisters and at such odds in the beginning that it almost feels like you are supposed to take a side. It is really disheartening, especially given how often people like to compare women to other women to tear the other other down. You see it all the time!

      The Stark sisters are my two favorite characters in GOT. I see them as having complementary skill sets and want to see them become true sisters in the end. I see their journeys as quite similar, even though the way they navigate and learn is different, given their personalities.

      1) Both born to privilege, thus both are used to being seen and heard within their families and those around them – they are lord’s daughters and never had to deal with a lot of lies and deception
      2) Both are separated from their parents and left alone trying to navigate through complicated and dangerous situations
      3) Both feel powerless in their situation, but do their best to survive – even as they make mistakes and suffer setbacks
      4) Both have to learn to lie and be deceptive
      5) Both have to deal with and rely on disreputable, dangerous people to ‘help’ them
      6) Both take on disguises and learn to live as alternate personas
      7) Both are learning to read people and their intentions. Sansa with Baliesh’s political lessons and Arya with her lying game
      8) Both start to adapt to their circumstances and by doing so are beginning to gain skills and agency of power of their own
      9) Both are frequently reminding themselves that they are Starks and recognizing the importance of family
      10) Both are survivors who I hope will live

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    22. JR: Why is it wrong for Arya to disagree on certain things with Jon? I’m guessing it’s related to Cersei whom Arya still has on her list. Sansa has said as far back as S6 that Cersei is a threat. Jon thought it BS then and still did in S7 when he believed whatever Cersei was selling. But a big shock to no one, Cersei lied. If that is what Arya has issues with, you go girl.

      Last time there was a KITN, whenever his mother, Cat, overstepped his boundaries, he reigned her back in. I remember Robb giving Cat a withering look, or two. Robb even put his own mother in the brig for treason – this is what kings do!

      Sansa oversteps with Jon but he doesn’t throttle her the way Robb might have, and I think that Jon knows that she doesn’t want him there and doesn’t think he deserves to be king. Interestingly, Arya came to a similar conclusion about her sister’s motives when she played the game of faces with Sansa.

      I hope you’re right about it being about the Lannister troops. It’s such a circuitous route how that all came about, that it’s hard to remember how it started. I want to say that it was Tyrion’s idea…. But I think he proposed it as a solution to Dany saying she couldn’t turn her back on Cersei. But all that changed once Dany flew beyond the wall, surely. Jon is the one who is always pushing for unity. I’ll have to watch those parts again.

      Anyway, I agree that the Lannister troops heading north is a legit reason for Sansa/Arya to be frightened.. But that will end once Jaime arrives with the news that they won’t be coming, which will leave only Sansa’s resentment of Jon for having allowed it in the first place.

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    23. Sernoname:
      Sansa was bitter last season because Jon was thinking with his penis? What? So Jon went to Dragonstone last season because his penis told him to?

      Okay.

      I think she is talking more of the perception of when Jon returns, in love with a beautiful girl, who he has bent the knee to and essentially given up some of their collective power without consulting anyone. I can see Sansa thinking this when Jon returns… that Jon is blinded by love/lust and his insane quest against the undead. Especially since he gave up what she believes she rightfully won, she was a little bitter that they crowned Jon over her. So she wouldn’t be pleased with Jon making such big decisions without even consulting her. Perhaps she will convince Arya to feel the same, or Maisie and Sophie spend a lot of time talking and this is their view, or perhaps this is how D&W explained it to them on how they are supposed to feel when Jon returns.

      At least a first… remember, I don’t think Sansa truly believes that an undead army is coming, she is mostly preparing for winter and maybe an attack from KL. She has heard about it, but she never really seems convinced to me, more like she is just humoring them so they will do what she wants, get back Winterfell. At least that is how I saw it. Arya doesn’t know anything about it, perhaps she has heard some of the rumors by now, but really it is a very fantastical story that is hard to believe without evidence… plus there is the WALL, most wouldn’t assume that it would ever be destroyed and that they have time and are safe for now. No one other that those at the Wall’s fall know about it yet, well and Bran 🙂

      Misgivings and suspicions are to be expected, these two girls have learned to not trust anyone easily… and a Targ with dragons and a huge army isn’t exactly going to be welcoming site. They will feel like they haven’t any choice and being put into a situation like that can be irritating. But once reality comes knocking, I’m sure all of that will be resolved quickly. Can’t blame them to harshly for things they don’t know about or are too fantastical to be believed easily.

      Perhaps Sansa will completely trust Bran now, or at least his visions and that will convince her…

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    24. The Sean Savage video is great, wish it was longer. He has a great look and voice too, he could be an extra in the show, lol

      Funny hearing the Battle of the Bastards named ‘BOB’ lol

      Which scene setup do you think Maisie is looking at?
      Her skirmish with Brienne? When Arya arrives at WF?

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    25. viki: plus there is the WALL, most wouldn’t assume that it would ever be destroyed and that they have time and are safe for now. No one other that those at the Wall’s fall know about it yet, well and Bran 🙂

      Yes, indeed! Once they find out that the Wall is down, they’ll have to seriously consider what was on the other side of it. Before that, they had lots of time to scoff and argue. I take it that by the end of episode 3, a lot of those lords will be dead.

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    26. So how about Jon takes his penis along with the Dragons, weapons & army he brought with him and peaces the f out to Essos or somewhere? Others takes them all…

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    27. Jon’s reasons aside, he didn’t just give away Sansa’s home, he gave away Arya’s home as well. I can see both sisters more than ready to give Jon a rash of shit about that.

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    28. orange,

      If he choose her because of her dragons to defeat the NK he didn’t have to stick his penis into his aunt. He could just have made an
      alliance.

      And he did think with his penis. Because if he was smart about it he wouldn’t have bow right there in episode 6, he would have waited. He did so because he felt in love with Dany. (that’s why I really bought their love)

      He should have said something that he wish he could bow, and he will in the future, but that they need to convince the north first and once the north love her he will bow to her.

      And don’t forget there’s one thing the show had shown us, Arya is one of the best in reading people, most of the time she’s right. (It was also a part of her training)

      House Monty,

      She was bitter at first, which was logical in my book, the only thing she wanted was to be recognized by Jon (I think more Jon than the north itself) and only in episode 7×02 she got that recognition she wanted from him.

      And don’t forget her past. She was beating by one, married to another into a family who murdered her family, later she though she escaped, she was sold again into a much much worst mariage. I think I wouldn’t overcome the horror that that girl got in her young years. I think most people would be bitter after that at least I know I would be.

      anemone,

      What sansa wanted is to keep the north safe. Keeping them all in winterfell, fighting together. And as made clear the action of Jon made the north question Jon and even thinking about leaving WF.
      Sansa had a choose, she could defend Jon and the north would leave because of honor. Or she would choose the side of the north but making it so that the north would stay.

      Arya choose Jon because she saw Jon as the boy who gave her needle, the one who she had the best bond with, so she defends him.
      In season 8 she can see Jon how he is now and she will judge him by his actions now.

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    29. Stark Raven' Rad,

      Depends if Jon listen to his sisters. I can even see Jon dismiss Arya’s advice. And if Sansa would side with Arya.

      I think Sansa learned from her mistakes and I think she admire Arya now. But even Jon has a big mistake he has the “hero complex”, that’s why he always fell into stupid traps and getting into trouble.

      Ten Bears,

      hahahahaha made me laugh.

      But I think she was talking about episode 7×07 with that statement. But we will see how season 8 will go. Personally I always though Arya would like Dany but she would not like the way he choose his love before the north.

      JR,

      +1 about Sansa making clear Cersei is a treat.

      And don’t forget that there could have been conversations between Bran, Sam, Arya and Sansa.

      What if Bran shared that she burned the Tarly’s alive, and interpret that as her being like her father. And some other things he could have shared.

      Personally I think Arya won’t dislike Dany or even Jon or their love. I think she will make it clear that what he did was not smart and the best thing he could have done. I think it’s more like a normal family feud that will happen. Don’t people have family that does stupid things? I tell them if they get to far out of line (and they with me)

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    30. Dee:
      Jon’s reasons aside, he didn’t just give away Sansa’s home, he gave away Arya’s home as well. I can see both sisters more than ready to give Jon a rash of shit about that.

      How’s that? Is Dany going to kick Sansa and Arya out of WF?

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    31. viki,
      Exactly! It’s quite heavily implied in the books that Arya and Sansa will patch up their differences they had when they were young and learn to work together with their complementary strengths. In fact, I think it’s an important development of both their characters because it shows growth and maturity on both their parts. If the sisters were going to regress back to their bickering ways and Arya just blindly follows Jon, we’re right back in season/book 1.

      It’s not like Arya and Jon won’t get along in season 8, but they’re both very changed people since they last saw one another so it might not be the “dream” relationship we have built up in our minds. It’s going to be tempered by both of their experiences and responsibilities.

      I also think it’s unfortunate that there has to be this one-or-the-other mentality when it comes to Arya & Sansa. Both are great, interesting, and vitally important characters to this story in their own way. I hate it when one is used as a counter when propping up the other as someone’s favourite. You can have one as your favourite and still like and be interested in the other character.

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    32. Mass:
      One of the callbacks i’m sure we will see in this season is the scene where cersei captured ned stark. In the main hall, when ned wasconfident that he had gold cloaks support on his back, cersei with help of little finger had already bought them, so they turned their back to ned and betrayed him. Same scene is my expectation from this season, but this time cersei is the one who will be betrayed and golden company will replace gold cloaks. Well, sercei will finnaly taste her own medicine.

      Now this is interesting twist. But thinking if anyone could orchestrate such a surprise twist, it’d be Danerys, not Jon. He can’t seem to be sneaky for anywho.

      And I think it isn’t fair about blaming his penis, which mourned long enough and finally found a Targaryen to console it. But like Ned, he’ll put honor above all.

      Sure hope we don’t get some contrived soap drama, like the girls wringing fake anguish in S7… and just get on with it. The pack has more important things to do, including rooting out the traitor in the midst.

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    33. Dee:
      Jon’s reasons aside, he didn’t just give away Sansa’s home, he gave away Arya’s home as well. I can see both sisters more than ready to give Jon a rash of shit about that.

      How did he ‘give away’ his home? He only pledged to a new leader of the 7 kingdoms, which puts him back to where the family was before Ned lost his head: warden of the north. Still retains WF and still has banners of the north pledged to him.

      Only gave up ‘king of the north’ title… and united under Targaryen rule rather than Lannister rule.

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    34. Realistically, how much tension can there be by the time Jon and Dany arrive? Jon estimated that it would take them two weeks to reach Winterfell. If the fall of the wall was happening concurrently with boat-sex, then by the time they arrive at Winterfell, word of there AOTD must have reached Sansa and Arya. Unless they are going to ‘cheat’ time again pretend that the AOTD are not rampaging around the north to have Jon arrive into a full inquisition for ceding the north to Dany, then it would make more sense for him to arrive with this enormous army and the dragons to open arms. That’s clearly not going to happen and we’re going to get the cheated version – where an army of 100,000 dead men are rampaging through the north, but Winterfell are going to remain blissfully unaware of how serious the threat is, so that when Jon arrives with their best chance at survival, he’s not going to get rewarded, instead he’s going to get chastised. Joy.

      I predict the first scene of Ep1 is going to be one of the Northern castles falling (Last Hearth probably) to the AOTD (possibly as a warm opener before the credits roll). There are going to be survivors who escape the massacres and make it to Winterfell. If this doesn’t happen before Jon and co. arrive then this is going to be the first time-cheat that I moan about (I have never minded any of the others that much as they were explainable through some creative thinking).

      The biggest argument for everyone being angry with Jon for giving up the north is that they have no idea how truly deadly the threat from the NK and his army is (most probably still believe it’s a myth). I agree with this argument and if the wall hadn’t fallen yet, then I can see why Jon would have quite a lot of explaining to do, but seeing as the wall has fallen and the AOTD are going to have two weeks to go wild in the north, this argument is nullified. Hard to ignore the reports of terrified, traumatised survivors trickling in from the northern castles/lands and dismiss them as myth. Hard to ignore how quickly the other northern castles were swamped and defeated.

      For this reason, I really hope the Stark drama and disagreement happens over other issues – as some may have suggested, Arya’s desire for revenge on Cersei and perhaps Jon wanting to ally with her. Perhaps, if/after Winterfell falls and the Starks all make it out alive, Jon suggests retreating to plead for Cersei for help/alliance and the Stark sisters team up and use their superior knowledge of the queen to quite-rightly tell him that Cersei can’t be trusted and he’s a fool for thinking she will keep to her word. I am much more interested in this kind of drama than them chastising him for giving up the throne when in reality they should be beyond grateful for Dany’s army and dragons by the time they arrive.

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    35. Dee:
      Jon’s reasons aside, he didn’t just give away Sansa’s home, he gave away Arya’s home as well. I can see both sisters more than ready to give Jon a rash of shit about that.

      Do you think Winterfell stands a chance without Jon’s arrival with Daenerys, her armies and her dragons? Does anyone in the north? By the time Jon arrives, the AOTD will have been rampaging through the north destroying everything in their path. Will they be so angry with him that they refuse their only chance of survival that he has secured through doing the smart thing? Their home isn’t going to stand much of a chance if they do. Or will they say “Thanks for providing us with our only chance of survival, we’re going to take it, but we’re going to rollock you anyway.”

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    36. Dee,

      He didn’t though. He gave up HIS title as King in the North. The title that was given to him by the North’s own free will, they could have chosen Sansa if they had wanted to. They didn’t. Daenerys, like Aegon the Conqueror before her and all the Targ rulers that came after Aegon, never intended on taking Winterfell from the Starks, what she demands is allegiance. I’m not sure what her current thinking is in terms of who rules WF, I assume she would want Jon to marry her and become King Consort of the entire realm, thus allowing either Sansa or Bran to take over rule of the North but she certainly never mentions taking the castle from the rightful owners. But whatever, for all the grief that Jon gets, it’ll be hilarious to see what happens to the North if he just said fck it all and leaves them to their own devices to face the Night’s King and his army.

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    37. Has anyone considered the option that Aryah would not be siding with Sansa because Jon bent the knee to Dany, or he his bringing her to Winterfell, but perhaps due to the fact that they too will learn his true identity?

      What if they do find out he is in fact the rightful heir to the Throne, but Jon being Jon, still wants to let Dany Rule. Not sure they wouldn’t rather have their brother sit on the throne instead right. Perhaps they try to convince him he belongs there and he needs to take it.

      This is what they could give him a ton of grief about right?

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    38. Che,

      I agree with you that Dany isn’t taking away their home, but going by the “the north need Dany and her army”. I have to say the following:
      1. Is Jon thinking with his penis (Going to stay with it because it sounds to funny haha) needed for Dany to get her army north?
      2. Is Jon bending the knee and giving away the north a deal breaker for Dany? Do you think she would help the north if Jon didn’t bend the knee?
      a. If the answer is yes, why follow a selfish person.
      b. And if it’s no (which I betting on Dany will help no matter what), why did Jon bend the knee and make distress in the north, why not bend the knee after the war between the living and death is over.

      Conclusion: Jon didn’t think this true, he though with his penis (or his heart). I can see arya being pissed off of that, that he didn’t think about consequences. His heart is in the right place but sometimes he forget to think.

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    39. First of His Name,

      Maybe. I think the grief Jon will get is going to be mainly about turning the North over to Dany without discussing it with them first and I think he’ll also get some grief about focusing too much on the AOTD and not enough on Cersei.

      I’m sure Sansa will also think Jon’s a dope for trusting Cersei to help.

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    40. First of His Name:
      Has anyone considered the option that Aryah would not be siding with Sansa because Jon bent the knee to Dany, or he his bringing her to Winterfell, but perhaps due to the fact that they too will learn his true identity?

      What if they do find out he is in fact the rightful heir to the Throne, but Jon being Jon, still wants to let Dany Rule.Not sure they wouldn’t rather have their brother sit on the throne instead right.Perhaps they try to convince him he belongs there and he needs to take it.

      This is what they could give him a ton of grief about right?

      Yes, a more sensible explanation for tension with Jon. That is, who rules their world?, not just who rules in the north. The people are accustomed to rulers in the south and that doesn’t affect them greatly as long as Ned’s death is avenged. But if Jon is rightful heir, they’ll want him to claim it, not concede out of love for Danerys.
      The girls may misinterpret it as ‘penis thinking’ according to the script, but we’ve always known him as the ‘reluctant king’.

      But agree Sansa will be pissed they didn’t wipe out Cersei first. Until she sees what’s coming anyway.

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    41. kevin1989,

      In an optimal world where there was no Others’ threat, what would have been the consequences, had Jon, unlike Thorren Stark, not knelt before a conqueror with three large fire breathing dragons? Well, there’s Harrenhal as a clue and there are the slavers that were crucified regardless of personal fault and the Tarly’s who were burnt to a crisp. That is likely where the North would have ended had Jon not end up kneeling. I wanted him to hold up but the reality was, even without the white walker threat, the North had no way of successfully defending themselves if Daenerys were to attack with her entire force at hand. Sooner or later, Jon was going to kneel. Robb would have knelt as well and they were both their father’s son so I think is obvious what Ned would have chosen to do. Arya is smart, she should be able to see this.

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    42. kevin1989,

      I think the reasoning behind that moment on the boat was that Jon was finally swept away by Daenerys’ magic; the same magic that saw the Dothraki follow her across the sea and the unsullied pledge to fight for her even after she freed them. It may not have been well portrayed, and I don’t doubt that he loved her in that moment, but to me that was the logic behind his decision. In that moment, he sees Daenerys for what she is (in his own words), the ‘mhysa’ and saviour of them all – I think he truly felt that she would be the best ruler for the seven kingdoms, all of them, including the north (whether a few indecisive northern lords like it or not – because let’s be honest, the small folk do not care). I think it’s pretty degrading to Jon, his journey and his intelligence to suggest hen bent the knee because he was horny, or even that he was in love – he did it because he felt it was the best thing for his people.

      Talking of rash decisions though, isn’t the whole concept of the north being a sovereign kingdom just another example of a rash decision without too much forethought put into it? Where was the discussion when Baby Bear and Lord Glover named him king in the north? Did they sit down to discuss the pros and cons of breaking away from the seven kingdoms? Did they discuss what would happen when the south came to take it back (because after BOB, how many fighters have north got left exactly – those mountains of dead were pretty sizeable) or when the AOTD came to kill them all? In neither of those cases did their chances look very good. Did they discuss how they were going to get supplies to see out the long winter that was coming? Did they discuss anything at all? No, it was a rash decision they all made together (and another rash decision to try to push Jon aside and name Sansa queen instead). Did those lords consult their maesters, siblings, advisors before deciding to become a separate kingdom and name Jon their king? Nope.

      So that rash decision is acceptable, but Jon’s rash decision is not?

      The idea of a sovereign north is so silly to me with the threats they face from all sides (and the fact that a long winter is rolling in and they’ll all suffer extreme malnutrition as a result – even with Sansa’s forward thinking, which came late in the game as the snows had already started falling). They don’t have the capability of being an independent nation. I like to think Jon sees that, but I doubt he does in the show (he’s quite shrewd in the books of course, but they don’t how this part of his character in the show much). That is why, to me, any drama that ensues over everyone being annoyed at Jon for ceding the north will feel hollow and meaningless. Aside from the fact that the AOTD are about to obliterate them all, they wouldn’t be much of an independent nation even if that weren’t the case. They haven’t been one in three hundred years.

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    43. came to thread expecting a lot of whinging from the projon/antisansa brigade… was not disappointed!

      Chill guys. It’ll be fine.

      Arya has a right to be P’O’d if Jon says something like “Cersei doesn’t matter only the NK matters” which is inevitably what he will think. It’s understantable, but misguided because they need to survive both challenges in the end.

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    44. Undead Elephant: Except Varys, Theon and Grey Worm…

      Well Theon very much did, before he lost it… and even afterwards feels emasculated by the loss… and it wouldn’t surprise me if the loss of said member didn’t color all their actions still. Varys still wanted revenge decades later against the wizard, Greyworm felt he couldn’t give Missandi enough without it… even if it isn’t present, it is still comes up.

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    45. Danny,

      That would make Dany a tyrant if she would burn the north, not really a person who you should side with.

      Personally I think Dany would have helped Jon no matter what, he didn’t have to kneel. What would happen after the long night could be sorted then. I understand why jon bowed but I don’t agree with him.

      Che,

      You’re right of course, the sovereign north is not really a good idea, but in that moment the only way to keep the north fighting for Jon and against tAoTD is by letting them believe in a sovereign north.

      There’s a huge chance that most northern lords will move home, yes they will die like they deserve for leaving Jon. But it is also a bigger army for the NK. Meaning smaller chance of winning. And also they can’t use the dragons because NK can kill them with one hit.

      What they should have done is not concern themselves with who should bent to who. They should have let that be for the future, they should focus on how to win the battle against the dead. For that to happen:
      1. Dany needs to help. As she stated in episode 6, she would have helped even if jon didn’t bent the knee. So no worries here.
      2. Keeping the north happy, so that the nortern lords keep on fighting for them instead of leaving WF. That means waiting to bend the knee until 1. The army of the dead is defeated or 2. The norths see who Dany is and think: hell yes, we will follow this savior. Which would probably happen if they would have entered WF as allies not as queen and lord of the north.

      But Jon is always one to live in the moment and do what he thinks is best at that moment, he sees what needs to happen but sometimes he doesn’t see the right path to that.

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    46. What Che said!

      kevin1989:
      And he did think with his penis. Because if he was smart about it he wouldn’t have bow right there in episode 6, he would have waited. He did so because he felt in love with Dany. (that’s why I really bought their love)

      I disagree he was thinking with his penis. He didn’t bend the knee in hopes he’d get laid sometime in the future. He bent the knee to Dany because he feels she’s good for the North and the realm. He found himself supporting Stannis for the same reason and he wasn’t in love with Stannis 😉 I also don’t doubt Jon is in love with Dany – he is – but he truly feels Dany is the best for the realm.

      That said, I think it was shortsighted of him to bend the knee at that particular moment before consulting his sisters, Davos, etc. Jon has his fair share of flaws. He’s impulsive, can be shortsighted in some areas, makes polarizing decisions and doesn’t do a ton to win dissenters over (he basically explains his reasoning once and tough cookies if they don’t like it), he dropped that info bomb on Sansa in 702 without talking with her (Changed my mind! Going to Dragonstone after all!”), he should have stayed in better contact with Sansa while he was gone, and I really think Jon’s causing problems for himself by bending the knee after Dany already promised her help and before talking with Sansa, Davos, Arya, et al… but he doesn’t think with his penis. He’s not bending the knee just to get some sweet sweet lovin’… especially after three years of zilch since Ygritte 😉 He’s bending the knee because he truly believes Dany is the best for the realm.

      And don’t forget her past. She was beating by one, married to another into a family who murdered her family, later she though she escaped, she was sold again into a much much worst mariage. I think I wouldn’t overcome the horror that that girl got in her young years. I think most people would be bitter after that at least I know I would be.

      I don’t fault Sansa for being wary of Dany and Cersei, nope, but Jon, Dany, Arya, Bran, just about everyone has gone through their own horror story on this show. Everyone has reason to be wary and bitter and suspicious. I do think Sansa, Jon, and Arya have kind of “blind spots” when it comes to each other’s experiences – they have no idea what the other has been through, and no idea what that feels like.

      What sansa wanted is to keep the north safe. Keeping them all in winterfell, fighting together.

      She does, and she’s doing what she can to that aim. However, that’s the whole reason Jon went to Dragonstone too – he also wants to keep the North safe, wants to do everything he can to ensure humanity’s survival. Dany is their only hope at standing any chance against the army of the dead. Without her, they’re all screwed – there won’t be a North at all if Dany doesn’t help them out. Jon isn’t going to Dragonstone out of some sort of hero complex, or wish to be the big hero, but because she is their only chance at survival. This isn’t a normal war with human foes, this is a war against a mythological threat a handful of people (including Jon) have seen. This is why I think an emissary won’t work – when the stakes are this high and Dany is truly their only hope, Jon – as king, as the guy Dany requested, as one of the only people who have even seen this threat – needs to come in person. Jon’s basically asking Dany for everything and anything and asking her to believe in something from thousands-year old legends. If he just sends some dude to ask for help on his behalf, it’s kind of like, “Well, the king’s asking for all my help, to save his people, and he can’t be bothered to come himself?”

      +1 about Sansa making clear Cersei is a treat.

      Jon wasn’t exactly dismissing Cersei as a threat in that scene. He was saying the Night King is the more imminent threat.

      David Benioff says in Inside the Episode 7×01: “It’s not so much [Jon] dismisses Cersei as a threat long term, but right now, the imminent threat is the Night King and the army of the dead.”

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    47. My comments are being marked as spam and I don’t know why – and I super super hope that all my attempts to post the same one don’t show up here XD;; I’m sorry in advance!! Are my comments containing something spammy?

      I’m going to try and edit my comment to include my original reply:

      What Che said!

      kevin1989:
      And he did think with his penis. Because if he was smart about it he wouldn’t have bow right there in episode 6, he would have waited. He did so because he felt in love with Dany. (that’s why I really bought their love)

      I disagree he was thinking with his penis. He didn’t bend the knee in hopes he’d get laid sometime in the future. He bent the knee to Dany because he feels she’s good for the North and the realm. He found himself supporting Stannis for the same reason and he wasn’t in love with Stannis 😉 I also don’t doubt Jon is in love with Dany – he is – but he truly feels Dany is the best for the realm.

      That said, I think it was shortsighted of him to bend the knee at that particular moment before consulting his sisters, Davos, etc. Jon has his fair share of flaws. He’s impulsive, can be shortsighted in some areas, makes polarizing decisions and doesn’t do a ton to win dissenters over (he basically explains his reasoning once and tough cookies if they don’t like it), he dropped that info bomb on Sansa in 702 without talking with her (Changed my mind! Going to Dragonstone after all!”), he should have stayed in better contact with Sansa while he was gone, and I really think Jon’s causing problems for himself by bending the knee after Dany already promised her help and before talking with Sansa, Davos, Arya, et al… but he doesn’t think with his penis. He’s not bending the knee just to get some sweet sweet lovin’… especially after three years of zilch since Ygritte 😉 He’s bending the knee because he truly believes Dany is the best for the realm.

      And don’t forget her past. She was beating by one, married to another into a family who murdered her family, later she though she escaped, she was sold again into a much much worst mariage. I think I wouldn’t overcome the horror that that girl got in her young years. I think most people would be bitter after that at least I know I would be.

      I don’t fault Sansa for being wary of Dany and Cersei, nope, but Jon, Dany, Arya, Bran, just about everyone has gone through their own horror story on this show. Everyone has reason to be wary and bitter and suspicious. I do think Sansa, Jon, and Arya have kind of “blind spots” when it comes to each other’s experiences – they have no idea what the other has been through, and no idea what that feels like.

      What sansa wanted is to keep the north safe. Keeping them all in winterfell, fighting together.

      She does, and she’s doing what she can to that aim. However, that’s the whole reason Jon went to Dragonstone too – he also wants to keep the North safe, wants to do everything he can to ensure humanity’s survival. Dany is their only hope at standing any chance against the army of the dead. Without her, they’re all screwed – there won’t be a North at all if Dany doesn’t help them out. Jon isn’t going to Dragonstone out of some sort of hero complex, or wish to be the big hero, but because she is their only chance at survival. This isn’t a normal war with human foes, this is a war against a mythological threat a handful of people (including Jon) have seen. This is why I think an emissary won’t work – when the stakes are this high and Dany is truly their only hope, Jon – as king, as the guy Dany requested, as one of the only people who have even seen this threat – needs to come in person. Jon’s basically asking Dany for everything and anything and asking her to believe in something from thousands-year old legends. If he just sends some dude to ask for help on his behalf, it’s kind of like, “Well, the king’s asking for all my help, to save his people, and he can’t be bothered to come himself?”

      +1 about Sansa making clear Cersei is a treat.

      Well… Jon wasn’t exactly dismissing Cersei as a threat in that scene. He was saying the Night King is the more imminent threat.

      Per Benioff from Inside the Episode for 701: “It’s not so much [Jon] dismisses Cersei as a threat long term, but right now, the imminent threat is the Night King and the army of the dead.”

      And also they can’t use the dragons because NK can kill them with one hit.

      I think they can use dragons, they’ll have to use dragons, but they’ll need to plan for the Night King’s Olympic athlete javelin throwing skills.

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    48. Olli,

      Do you think there is a chance that the Stark Sisters would perhaps disobey John and plan behind his back to create their own agenda of sending someone to kill Cersei?

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    49. First of His Name:
      Olli,

      Do you think there is a chance that the Stark Sisters would perhaps disobey John and plan behind his back to create their own agenda of sending someone to kill Cersei?

      I’d say low. Seems it’s all coming down so fast, there won’t be time to send someone south. And that someone would probably need to be Arya, and we know where she’ll be until after the likely fall of WF.

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    50. I hated Jon’s choice to bend the knee at a point when it was unnecessary. Disappointed in Jon, and in the writers.
      But simplistically crediting that decision to JSP (TM -Ten Bears) is not a good look for Maisie, or for Arya/Sansa if she is accurately reflecting the storyline.
      I agree with Che’s disappointment in the “dumbing down” of show Jon (and many comments on the two threads on this subject). But I grudgingly admit that the decision to bend the knee was not necessarily against his character. He is less interested in power than in what’s best for the people. He had no ambitions for the IT, and so at minimum wanted a peaceful alliance, no more northerners dying in political wars. He believed in independence so the north is not subjected to rulers who are more interested in their own power than what’s good for the people. But he sees in Dany a leader who will fight for them, for all of her people including the north, make them stronger, build a better world together…much as Ned supported Robert, believing both Westeros and the north were better united under his overall rule.
      Whether that will prove true this time is another matter…it’s what he has observed in how she has handled the appeals from the north, how she listened and responded to the threats, sought his counsel as much as his allegiance. At this point he has a basis for judging her that they do not. And his fairly all-consuming concern is the fight against the dead.
      At this point the northerners don’t even know what we know – that Jon had Dany’s support in the Great War without bending the knee. So if they rush to judgment it says more about them than him. Fair to question, and fair to disagree in the end, but they also owe him some respect and credit…for going to Dragonstone to save his people, for not getting himself or his people killed as they feared he would, for being SUCCESSFUL in the mission to get both the dragonglass and Dany’s full support with her armies and dragons, in short for giving the north its best chance of survival. Where it actually goes from here is anyone’s guess, but acknowledge that he wasn’t “wrong” to go south…that he does know some things.
      There is enough complexity in all of this for them to have differences perspectives without reducing his decision to JSP. Arya and Sansa are smart and their experience has taught them to be skeptical…I hope the writers have given them the intelligent and thoughtful arguments they deserve.
      And start with how they all (Jon, Dany, etc) handled the situation with Cersei…where Sansa in particular has the experience to know better than they did!

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    51. Adrianacandle:
      What Che said!

      I do think Sansa, Jon, and Arya have kind of “blind spots” when it comes to each other’s experiences – they have no idea what the other has been through, and no idea what that feels like.

      What you both said! 🙂

      Haha while I was still writing you largely beat me to it.
      And that bit about blind spots – YES. Much of the lack of communication and character choices in s6 and s7 feel (to me) contrived to create a plot and conflict, but some of it is earned by the character arcs.
      I suppose it would be boring and/or too rosy for the pack to get together and really work together from the get-go 🤷‍♀️

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    52. Winterkat,

      Oh GOD yes! I want no more contrivances for the sake of bickering, squabbling, and drama. Some of it is earned and feels natural, I agree – these characters are siblings and have different views so they’re going to but heads now and then. On the other hand, some of it feels contrived because one or both characters failed to communicate something big. Jon and Sansa disagreeing is fine, it feels right for their dynamic and who doesn’t argue with a sibling? But the things they need to talk about (KoTV, Littlefinger, going to Dragonstone, kneeling) and at the appropriate time and place they need to talk about them (ie. not in front of an assembly of ALL THE NORTHERN LORDS YOU TWO) – they don’t. Oh, but the Sansa Arya conflict in season 7 was on another level. Them bickering and disagreeing would be fine, expected even, because it’s Sansa and Arya, but the level it got to… just ugh. Their last scene in season 7 was lovely though. That felt real 🙂

      But you’re right – sure, they might be the only family of siblings left who all love each other (well, there’s Yara/Theon and Jaime/Tyrion) but I guess it’d be too boring if they gelled and got along right away.

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    53. I really hope that what Maisie says is true because there has been a lack of positive female friendships on the show. And Sansa’s and Arya’s strenghts complement each other perfectly.

      Plus, Jon should be called out sometimes, he has his fair share of flaws: he can be impulsive, has tunnel vision which prevents him from understanding where others are coming from and is an awful communicator.

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    54. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      oh you are so right. I think she’s just got a little Sophie in her. It’s Sophie tha tusually goes sort of overboard and dramatic. And paints things a certain way, that end up NOT being what it is.

      Also, let’s be real, if Jon is doing this because of need of female uhm, affection? Then what Dany is thinking with her….. [fill in the blank]

      really interviews by the girls have to be taken in huge grains of salt.

      However, Sansa being a [insert word], is totally expected since S6. It’s like her thing.

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    55. Dee,

      gave away their home? I don’t understand. She’s not taking Winterfell. Dany would never do that. He told Dany to basically go to hell when she demanded to be called queen. He vetted her. She passed the test — a rigorous one. Nobody has fought for humankind and risked more than Jon to fight for it. He would never ever allow anyone to take their home.

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    56. Will be using NordVPN to stream the last season as it isn’t available where I live. Just hope to see Arya taking the throne!

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    57. I hope S8 does have a lot of death, I want to feel like anyone could die at any point because this is the end game and nobody should have plot armour anymore (even Jon).

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