Liam Cunningham on Game of Thrones season 5: “There’s going to be a huge amount of drama.”

Liam Cunningham

No one is going to know what happens, says Liam Cunningham, on Game of Thrones because viewers can’t rely on the books for spoilers anymore.

In a new interview with RTÉ Ireland, the actor admits, “We’re about to overtake the books,” with Game of Thrones heading into its fifth year as George R.R. Martin continues to write the next book in the series. Cunningham notes that Martin is halfway through writing the sixth book.

In the interview , Cunningham talks about the upcoming season and hints at major happenings, possibly deaths.

“There’s going to be a huge amount of drama this year. There are people going down,” Cunningham says. “As there are every year. But I’m not going to say who. I’m not going to say when. I can’t!”

The actor confirms that shooting will conclude in the first week of December.

For more on the dangerous ladies of Game of Thrones, the creation of Davos Seaworth’s missing fingers, and the knight’s relationship with Melisandre, check out the full interview.

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Sue the Fury
Susan Miller, Editor in Chief of WatchersOnTheWall.com

108 Comments

  1. Barely news, but we needed a new post as there has been nothing new the last week or so I just get the impression that they have tightened up security to prevent leaks, as there did seem to be sooo much more coming out In August, September and early October.

    I do hope he is wrong on how much George has written, because if that is true, we definitely won’t be seeing TWOW until 2016 at the very earliest, and at the rate he has written it or so far, 2017.

  2. Liam said in mid 2013 interview GRRM is halfway through. Don’t get your hopes up but I think GRRM has written way more than he’s willing to say.

  3. I don’t know about the rest of you but I did NOT become a fan of this show to watch important characters DIE.

  4. Jon, Balon, Aemon, Kevan, Pycelle, Meryn

    Obviously more once the overtaking happens and the first one probably doesn’t count but based on what’s actually published currently have I missed anyone notable?

  5. Flaming heart,

    We really shoudn’t overanalyse statements such as this. “Halfway” could mean anything and I doubt Liam actually knows how much GRRM has written.

    But damn, it’s still frustrating how GRRM doesn’t give us even the tiniest hint of an update on his progress. I know he doesn’t want to disappoint anyone after all his false estimates before ADWD, but he could at least write some of those cryptic “I’m writing about krakens in the snow”-posts we got back then.

  6. Greenjones,

    Great catch Jentario, wonder if that was transported to the actual bridge or are they filming something taking place on it, and superimposing it to the location shot of the boat passing underneath.

  7. tyjon,

    I think they’ll be doing close-ups or shots with actors on the bridge on this set.

    My guess is that a stone man will leap of off this set onto the riverboat.
  8. davy:
    Hopefully

    Hey, don’t you dare to even consider the possibility of his death!

    As His Grace himself said: “(…) But we will march, and we will free Winterfell… or die in the attempt”.
    And I, for one, believe he’ll achieve the former, without the latter happening! …Hopefully

    But as long as I don’t know it for sure, I’ll hope with you 🙂

    ETA: And I just wanted to add, Liam is a really cool person and an AWESOME Davos <3

  9. jjp,

    That put a smile on my face, there is after all real time and GRRM time, and the two haven’t merged since the 1990’s.

  10. If we really get the

    Battle of Ice/Winterfell

    this season and somebody big has to die

    PLEASE LET IT BE RAMSAY!
  11. Ahhhhh Liam Cunningham aka; Old man Davos, the only man who almost – almost makes me forget (cue in the eternal question):

    WHERE IS GENDRY?

    That said; what an incredible actor. I have a theory about Davos’s good heart. I have a feeling that Jon’s infamous scene with the watch is the one thing that is going to bring Davos and Melissandre together.

  12. Did you guys catch the references to GOT in HBO’s “The Comeback”? One of the (fictional) producers said “I’m going to Ireland tomorrow”. Plus of course the “All men must die” posters.

  13. Hodor’s Bastard,

    A Sansa sample chapter would be great! Obviously there’s no guarantee that GRRM will even release another sample chapter before The Winds of Winter is published (and who knows when that will happen). But if I recall correctly

    there was at least one completed Sansa POV chapter that he originally wrote for ADWD but decided to push back into TWOW (which may or may not be the much-discussed “controversial” chapter – no one knows). I doubt that he would release that chapter if anything too significant happens in it and Sansa’s storyline in the show is obviously going to be a bit different now that her ‘Alayne’ cover has been dispensed with. But if part of Sansa’s Season 5 storyline is going to cover events similar to those from that unpublished chapter (say it involves her visiting another castle in the Vale) then I could envision him releasing it shortly before Season 5 premieres.

    It’s a popular (though unconfirmed) theory among the fandom that GRRM may have released the “Mercy” sample chapter in March of 2014 because he knew that the show was going to be adapting it in part for Season 4.

    Greenjones,

    I think that you’re right on with this prediction. I’m really looking forward to that sequence.

  14. Abyss,

    If Gendry is still ‘rowin’ what the hell is Benjen doing? Under a Heart Tree doing shots?

    PS: I think 50% of my entire life’s TL was me retweeting that.

  15. We know one storyline that is liekely to overtake the books. Maybe the death is

    Littlefinger since Sansa’s story has advanced greatly
  16. It’s good to see the panic of the Sullies… No news, no book, no spoilers to the end of the show. Pleasure!

  17. Show Davos > Book Davos.

    He’s clearly referring to

    Jon

    , and GRRM has until next July to release TWOW or we will find out whether or not

    he is resurrected when Kit Harrington shows up(or doesn’t) to film in Belfast.
  18. There’s going to be a huge amount of drama.”
    That’s interesting but he does not say there is MORE drama than in seasons before which were chocked full of it!

  19. Jared: It’s a popular (though unconfirmed) theory among the fandom that GRRM may have released the “Mercy” sample chapter in March of 2014 because he knew that the show was going to be adapting it in part for Season

    The intel on that is that D&D had Mercy somewhat before season 4 , maybe even
    before season 1! GRRM had that in hand apparently before finishing Feast and Dance.

  20. Jared,

    Yeah, I thought the release of the “Mercy” chapter was timed very well last year.

    It gave us plenty to compare/contrast with the Polliver kill in the first episode (compared with Tickler from ASoS and Raff from TWoW). And the showrunners are also going to revisit that Mercy chapter directly or indirectly with the leaked shots we saw earlier this year. Perhaps a Sansa chapter sneak peek would be fitting before S5. It’s been 9 years!!!

    Personally, I think any new Sansa stuff would contain major plot points. There are all sorts of characters wandering around the Riverlands and Neck that could be within Sansa’s story arc.

  21. Turncloak,

    But they may not need Jon/Kit, for the first part of S6 at least. They would just need Ghost…right? I subscribe to a certain warging of events. 🙂

    But TP is right….without TWoW soon….ugh.

  22. Hmm. Besides just mentioning that I love Liam as Davos, and he’s very engaging in this interview, seems to be suggesting some major Melisandre action next season- I wonder how much will be on book and how much new for the show?

  23. Could someone with a livejournal account please confirm with George Martin that he is at least halfway done with TWOW?

    Should be fun.

  24. Jaime’s girl,

    That is the vibe I received from his comments about Melisandre too. He seems to be speaking of a death that we wouldn’t know about. This makes me think that he isn’t speaking of

    Jon

    because there are already many speculations about what happens to him after

    For the Watch

    in the fan community. I wouldn’t put it past Liam to know about certain ideas as he also appears to be a fan of the series. A shocking death that I could think of that hasn’t happened in the books would be

    Shireen. I think we can all agree that D&D were strongly hinting that Melisandre has plans regarding her.
  25. Pj,

    Hey, he doesn’t drink them for the flavour! It’s darn cold behind the Wall and he wasn’t dressed for that water!

  26. I am so ready for this season! The good news is, we’ve gone 5 months since season 4 finale. The bad news, we’ve still got 5 months til the premiere (sigh)

  27. They better not kill the Mannis
    (also the people here thinking Jon is dead…. lol)

    also where’s the spoiler button?

  28. JP Dayne,

    Use the coding from the top of the comments.

    And Jon is dead. Doesn’t mean he will stay that way, but his human body died. The description of what Varamyr felt when he died (“the cold”) is exactly what Jon felt in his final chapter. The prologue also set up a warg’s mind surviving in his animal. Which Melisandre’s vision of Jon as a man,then wolf, and then man again signifies. Jon’s mind will live on in Ghost, and if/when Melisandre resurrects him, it will return to his body. I suppose this will allow him to not lose as much of himself as Beric did, and certainly not as much as Catelyn.
  29. Slutsburger:
    I am so ready for this season! The good news is, we’ve gone 5 months since season 4 finale. The bad news, we’ve still got 5 months til the premiere (sigh)

    Aya but mayhaps only 1 or 2 months before the first trailer and 3 months before the season 4 blu ray with new history and lore segments 🙂

  30. I have a comment in moderation where I wanted to post this http://s3.postimg.org/rl54047hd/sel.png from AdmiralKyrd on AFOIAF in response to tyjon and Jared‘s replies to my above links about the broken bridge set outside the Paint Hall looking like the one from the Toome filming. Anyways, this postimg from AdmiralKyrd just about proves the connection.

    Enjoy. Sorrows.

  31. Liam is awesome.

    Do you think there’s any chance of Davos finding Rickon this season? If they leave it much longer people are going to forget about Rickon.

    Also what are the chances of the battle for Winterfell happening this season?

  32. Greenjones,

    awesome! obviously there’s gonna be action on that wall.
    for close ups it would be easier to do it on location than building a replica.
    although we know they had a hard time shooting tyrion’s river scenes.

  33. wizardeyes:
    Do you think there’s any chance of Davos finding Rickon this season? If they leave it much longer people are going to forget about Rickon.

    Even by now, people will only remember Rickon because of the “previously on Game of Thrones” sequences that they show at the onset. However, do not underestimate their power: short visual cues like that are a very powerful tool for reminding people of basic things. They are infinitely more powerful than, say, characters talking about Rickon: without the face and context, viewers won’t remember who they mean, or at least not remember quickly enough.

    Tyrion Pimpslap,
    It is also a description taken from many living people who have almost died in the real world.

    Sergei Walankov:
    I think Cunningham just used “halfway through” as a figure of speech for “not finished”.

    Almost certainly! Indeed, Martin himself cannot say anymore than any of us could. What is halfway anyway? Half the pages needed? (You don’t know that!) Half the time needed? (Ditto that!) Half of the story lines completed? (You might know that: I know that I tend to think of my papers as “hallway done” when I get two of the three of the six classic “sections” done.) Do we round up from 33% and down from 67%? (Maybe!)

    However, there does seem to be a sort of Xeno’s Paradox thing happening with Martin and Time.

    Greatjon of Slumber: I did NOT become a fan of this show to watch important characters DIE.

    Why you became a fan (or anyone else!) became a fan need have little bearing on what Martin (and now B&W) are trying to communicate. (For comparison, a lot of Harry Potter fans were NOT reading the books to see Harry leave school early or willingly choose to die: but Rowling gave them a book with that stuff anyway because it worked for her over-arching story as well as for the final story itself.)

  34. jentario,

    Rickon at Last Hearth with the Umbers will bring him into the fold quicker/easier on the show, don’t you think? Will Davos be at the Wall for the whole season or will he go one way (southeast) and Stannis go another (southwest) in order to maximize coverage/support in the North for Stannis’s cause?

    (I guess you have based your Rickon response on casting/twitterspeak regarding Rickon for S5?)

  35. I really hope Davos survives. I think

    if GRRM wanted to kill him off he would have been gone by now… but I know that still doesn’t mean he’s safe of course lol

    Davos chapters are some of my favorite in the book and I love how well Liam Cunningham plays him… I will definitely cry if they kill him off!

  36. Aryamad:
    I really hope Davos survives. I think

    Davos chapters are some of my favorite in the book and I love how well Liam Cunningham plays him… I will definitely cry if they kill him off!

    Agreed! I love Davos, his POV, his story and I love Liam Cunningham as Davos!
    I couldn’t bear his death, it’d be worse than any Stark death for me. And the guy deserves a happy ending so much!
    He has seen four of his sons dying, almost drowned, was

    often imprisoned, almost killed or fake-killed,

    I hope so much he’ll outlive the series…

  37. jentario,

    Are we sure Volantis is in? Or do they embark on their magical mystery tour on the “Rhoyne” river from the Pentos area all the way to Slaver’s Bay? I believe you were discussing that a while back. Regarding of Volantis being in the picture or not, I’m getting the impression that Tyrion and Jorah will not take the sea route to get to Slaver’s Bay.

    They already have a Pentos diorama. Will they have Volantis and Sunspear additions to the opening sequence? Looking forward to them as well.

  38. It would be very funny to me if an actor, crew member or producer did an interview about any show that said something along the lines of “To be perfectly honest, this season doesn’t really have a whole lot of drama to it. In fact, it’s shaping up to be a fairly subpar season. Hopefully we get things back on track next time.”

  39. Aryamad,

    There really isn’t any “would have done it by now” for deaths of protagonists. It really comes down to the story in question and how that protagonist contributes to it. The “by now” for Ned Stark was when Ned had to choose between doing the honorable thing (telling the truth about who is the rightful king of Westeros) and doing the honorable thing (protecting his family at all costs). This ultimately costs him his head. Similarly, Catelyn’s death ultimately comes from her having to choose between protecting her family (doing whatever it takes to get Sansa and Arya back) and protecting her family (doing whatever it takes to help Robb win a war). (Those are the only two major protagonists who have died in the books up through this point: but even the later death of minor protagonists such as

    Quentyn Martell

    have followed this.) Indeed, even when the TV show elevated Robb Stark to a protagonist, his death was timed to reflect the culmination of a “do the right thing: marry for love” and “do the right thing: marry for politics” conflict.

    Take the protagonist in question:

    Davos’ contributions to the story has always been about protecting Stannis from himself. The “by now” for Davos would be some situation where Davos’ dying would in some way save Stannis while at the same time thwarting Stannis.

    That hasn’t happened yet in any way that would have lasting consequences on the tale: so it shouldn’t have happened by now.

  40. Xbox One Halo Pro Gamer: lol bye bye losers

    I was all set to attempt an eloquent rebuttal, but then I realized: I just couldn’t hope to achieve your level of well-reasoned argument.

    King Tommen,

    heh, yeah: if we did, then it would be said in sarcastic tones! That written, I have heard people (producers, writers, actors) say that Season X+1 would “scale things back” after Season X had some huge “epic” events. They then, of course, go on to emphasize that Season X+1 will focus on more subtle yet just as dramatic character stuff, etc. (That happened recently for Doctor Who, and I remember it happening for Lost and Babylon 5.)

  41. King Tommen,

    Funny. Katherine Heigl did something similar after her Emmy nom for Grey’s Anatomy a few years back, as a form of criticism for her role during the season. It was a rather bold but rude move. Can you imagine PD stating something similar after getting his Emmy nod?

    “I could have done so much more for the role but they wanted a reduction.”

    I would someday like to hear from BC and other showrunners/writers what was attempted and cut due to economic or logistical or continuity reasons.

  42. Turncloak,

    Yeah….House Ray posted it a few threads back as well.

    I would accept an expanded significance for Myranda, possibly affecting Reek/Theon’s opinion of her, but not

    FArya.

    Heck no.

  43. Again, it w
    Hodor’s Bastard,

    It can work just fine. All they need to do with her is

    provide Theon with someone to save so that he can save himself from being Reek. We’ve already seen last year how that might come to be.

    . As far as adaptation goes, this is modifying a fin, not turning a fin into a foot: it should have zero impact on the actual story.

  44. Wimsey,

    Ok, as we discussed before,

    but she will not be FArya. Her presence was simply too insulting to the Northern Lords as it was told in ADwD. Lady Dustin’s comments to Reek was a hint that it was all a Northern Lord mummery, anyway.

    “The girl dipped before him. That was wrong as well. The real Arya Stark would have spat in his face.”
    – Theon Greyjoy realizing that Ramsay’s bride is not Arya Stark

  45. Wimsey,

    So, let met get this straight:

    What you’re saying is that, in order to save himself from Ramsay and become Theon again, Theon will now save Ramsay’s psychopathic girlfriend who got his dick cut (while she laughed about it), which essentially meant cutting off a large part of his identity and putting him on the path of becoming Reek. Now, what you’re saying is that saving that person will be the way D&D choose to visualize Reek’s transformation back into Theon. Of course. Because that makes perfect sense! … I hope I misunderstood you. I really hope so.
  46. Would anyone even care if he doesn’t finish the books? I feel like more people like the HBO show anyways. I personally have never seen the show though so I wouldn’t know

  47. Wimsey,

    Are you serious? Why should anyone feel sympathetic for that psychotic murderer? Let alone Theon, whose cock she helped cut off and who he saw happily shooting another girl with an arrow and watching her being torn to shreds by numerous hounds. No. This would be by far the worst decision D&D could possibly make for that storyline, and if it was part of their plan they would have set up for it apropriately by humanizing Myranda rather than proving time and time again that she deserves whatever punishment Ramsay could muster for her.

    IF she replaces Jeyne Poole, it’ll be in acting as though she is Arya Stark. The whole Theon saves her bit is just not going to happen because it makes zero sense. And most likely, the whole fake Arya thing is cut. They’re going to find some other way to redeem Theon.

  48. Turncloak,

    I’m so disappointed every time I find one of these. Those ChristianToday articles are usually awful and have the most misleading titles. The assumptions come out of no-where. In fact, IIRC, it was ChristianToday that published the Winds of Winter release date article that used an April Fools Day joke article as a source without realizing it.

  49. jentario,

    While you are right in saying that Theon saving Myranda instead of Jayne Pool is idiotic as hell, Myranda marrying Ramsay in the guise of Arya Stark is no less patently stupid, and I don’t see how people believe that could be the case. While it is implied in the books that the Northern Lords basically knew what was up, still; why in the hell would Roose or Ramsay have a 25 year old-looking woman act as a 15 year old-looking girl? (15 at most! Yeah, the actress is 17. She still doesn’t look it.) It would be absolutely ridiculous.

    All this nonsense of “Jayne Poole hasn’t been introduced in the show, they couldn’t add her now.” Why? I ask the people who believe it’s that Winterfell worker or Myranda; if you believe it could be them, why not “Jayne Poole”? Why do we have to know her at all? “Hey, here’s this girl. She’s from Winterfell, and she’s about the proper age, so it’s all good. Her name is Jayne Poole.” Not so tricky, is it? It’s not like Jayne was a particularly developed character before this in the books; and, at any rate, she’s completely changed by the time we meet her here. This is assuming D&D will do the fArya subplot, of course.

  50. At best, any of these are surmountable challenges. At any rate, most of these arguments are misdirected: it’s not at all about her; it’s entirely about him. Now, it might have made things easier if they had someone to whom the audience could latch: but they didn’t. (Martin didn’t either: only the most hardcore of fans remembered his choice!) In the end,

    we don’t need to have any sympathy for fArya, whoever she is. We just need to see a catalysis that gets Theon to Kill Reek and (Re)Become Theon.

    Moreover, this choice would offer a simple solution to a potentially useful plot element:

    Is it a ruse to get him in more trouble, or is this legitimate? Theon knows that Ramsay discards his playthings in awful ways, and that is what opens up the door for possibly showing us what Theon might be re-awakened. Moreover, isn’t the internal conflict of whether thwarting a greater enemy is worth helping a lesser enemy emblematic of the SoI&F stories as a whole, anyway?

    As for the issue on what the northerners accept,

    it seemed pretty obvious to me that the northerners present knew that “Arya” was not Arya. It’s explained pretty well in the book that they either are just playing along for their own reasons or they dislike the Starks enough that they simply don’t care. Remember, all the ones who believe she is Arya are in Stannis’ army: and they simply have no reason to think otherwise. Again, this presents the show with a very simple means of showing that Lord Joe and Lady Jane Northerner are just playing along for their own ends. If they go whole-hog on the Battle of Winterfell at seasons’ end, then this could be a huge> Chekhovian Sword to hang on the wall.
  51. Wimsey,

    I’m sorry if this sounds insulting, but if you think that’s a good idea, you may lack any sense of metaphor or themes or anything sub-textual. If D&D choose to visualize Reek’s transformation back into Theon by having him save Myranda/GirlRamsay, I’d say they are bonkers. But of course they won’t.

    And that’s only thematically. I’d like to know how you’d crack this storywise. How Myranda would get into trouble, yet be unable or unwilling to do anything about it. Remember, she’s a psychopath. Again, Girl-Ramsay. How do you see Ramsay cracking Myranda? Why would she accept anyone’s help, let alone Reek’s? And why would he save her? I have a thousand questions like this, but it doesn’t matter, because even if they were able to make it work in terms of story, it’s a completely stupid way to visualize Theon’s transformation.

    As for Myranda marrying Ramsay in the guise of Arya, just… no. No. Yes, it’s implied the Northern Lords know what’s happening. Still, they chose a girl from Winterfell and with the proper age, Jayne Poole; instead of a 25-year old woman who isn’t even from there… because that wouldn’t make any fucking sense. D&D would not do something so absurd. Ramsay may as well marry a squirrel, if the disguise matters so little. What a silly suggestion.

  52. LukaNieto,

    Rather than being sympathetic to M, I can see Theon/Reek, in his path to lucidity, making a split decision to save or kill M (probably kill)….with or without R’s coercion. But he does need someone to save (doesn’t he?), and no one has been presented as needing saving in the Bolton arc. Shoulda captured Yara when they had the chance….
  53. Hodor’s Bastard,

    Why not Jayne Poole? She’s barely a character in the books, and anyway the show usually introduces people only when they are needed. As I said:

    Why do we have to know her at all? “Hey, here’s this girl. She’s from Winterfell, and she’s about the proper age, so it’s all good. Her name is Jayne Poole.” Not so tricky, is it? It’s not like Jayne was a particularly developed character before this in the books; and, at any rate, she’s completely changed by the time we meet her here. This is assuming D&D will do the fArya subplot, of course.
  54. Lion of Night,

    Does it really surprise you that a site called Christian Today would state something as fact without any actual proof? It’s not like religious groups generally rely on hard evidence.

    LukaNieto,

    I do believe it’s that Winterfell Worker, mostly because I think she IS Jayne Poole, not her replacement. Similar to how Ramsay was just called Boy for most of a season.
  55. LukaNieto,

    And I can stand this on it’s head. We have a Protagonist A. We have Antagonist 1 and Antagonist 2. Antagonist 1 and Antagonist 2 were allies, but now are enemies. We present Protagonist A with two options: aid Antagonist 1 by (passively or actively) cooperating with Antagonist 2, or aid Antagonist 2 by (passively or actively) cooperating with Antagonist 1.

    This sort of reverse Sophie’s Choice epitomizes Martin’s stories. On one level, Protagonist A does not have a right choice: either way, A aids an enemy (1 or 2). Conversely, either way A thwarts an enemy (2 or 1).

    Here is the really big key. If B&W are opting to go this way, then it actually is imperative that we not sympathize with either Antagonists 1 or 2. It has to be the reverse Sophie’s Choice scenario. Maybe it works best if A choses the one that most people hate least: but you actually get more story-telling power if we wish that Protagonist A had the choice of harming both Antagonists 1 and 2.

    Incidentally, I would stress that I’m not propounding this. I am merely trying to explain how it could very easily be used for both storytelling (

    Kill the Reek, become the Theon

    ) while at the same time feeding into the ever present them of identifying and then choosing the lesser of two evils. The story is unchanged (

    Reek -> Theon

    ) and an existing theme is re-emphasized.

    If you can convince me that this scenario is inconsistent with Martin’s stories or themes, then you may send me a raven to eat! 🙂

  56. Turncloak,

    It doesn’t epitomize Martin: it epitomizes the different SoI&F stories he has written. All of the SoI&F stories are about different aspects of internal conflict. It’s basically as if the protagonists all wander around with Angel 1 on one shoulder saying “Thou Shalt Do X” and Angel 2 on the other shoulder saying “Thou Shalt Do Y,” with X and Y being contradictory deeds. Helping one enemy to thwart another is just another case of that.

    Or, put another way: choose your poison, because a health tonic isn’t on the menu.

  57. I don’t really want to get caught up in all of the speculation but, having just reread ADwD in the last week, I would just like to add that…

    Reek remembering his true name doesn’t have that much to do with Jeyne/fArya, and is more due to the Heart-tree in the Godswood whispering his name, Theon. That reminds him that he’s Theon, Ironborn, Baylon Greyjoy’s son and heir. He goes along with the plot to get fArya out because the spearwives force him to, because it gives him an escape, and because he’s not Reek anymore… so he can’t tell Ramsay of the plot.
  58. Wimsey,

    I completely don’t understand how your scenario at all explains how Theon feeling sympathy for the person who cut off his penis and hunted a woman fits within GRRMs world or any other world for that matter. Seems extremely idiotic, which is why it won’t happen

  59. Wimsey,

    If GoT comes within a mile of the drama/tragedy of Sophie’s Choice, I’ll be surprised.

    Theon has made several insanely cocky decisions already, which has led to his demise

    1) Deciding to take Winterfell, knowing the consequences
    2) Deciding to kill the two boys as a mummery for Bran/Rickon
    3) Deciding to trust an unknown (original Reek), getting all of his men (and subsequently the doomed Moat Cailin men) killed

    Now he is a slave to his past decisions, which does oddly parallel Sophie’s Choice, including her decision to trust a crazy schizo. But Sophie was forced to make a horrible decision, while Theon chose to make a horrible decision. Sophie is the ultimate victim. Theon’s arc is karma. Sophie maintained a cognitive distortion with Nathan for a time but in the end, she was doomed for her forced decision. The act of making her decision doomed her….like Theon, in a sense.

    Theon/Reek may yet escape his lunacy, but he is indeed doomed. There is no redemption for him.
  60. Ser Florian:

    It’s not about remembering his name; it’s about remembering who he is. (“Who are you?” is an existential question, not “what is your name?) ADwD is essentially a story about

    kill the boy ( girl, broken person), become the man (woman, whole person); here it’s about “killing” Reek and rebecoming Theon.

    Turncloak: I completely don’t understand how your scenario at all explains how Theon feeling sympathy for the person who cut off his penis and hunted a woman fits within GRRMs world or any other world for that matter. Seems extremely idiotic, which is why it won’t happen

    One more time. It doesn’t work if the Protagonist is particularly sympathetic towards either Antagonist. It works only if the Protagonist decides that he hates Antagonist A less than he hates Antagonist B. This shouldn’t be complicated!

    The Gordian Knot here is that you are convinced that the the Protagonist (or the audience) has to sympathize with whomever he/she helps. The audience does not need to sympathize with anybody: they need to empathize with the protagonist. Now, having the protagonist rescue a sympathetic foil is one way to tell this particular protagonist’s story: but it is far from the only way. Moreover, it might not be the best way, particularly for the audience at whom this is aimed. (The audiences watching SoI&F were also watching Deadwood, the Sopranos, Dexter, etc.: i.e., shows that revelled in “which enemy is worse” and “which friend is better” scenarios.)

    Hodor’s Bastard: If GoT comes within a mile of the drama/tragedy of Sophie’s Choice, I’ll be surprised.

    Whether it approaches the quality of Sophie’s Choice is completely independent of the issue of whether both reflect the same theory about what a story is. Now, obviously, they are not identical: Sophie’s Choice (as a story) revolves around the reprecussions of being given a choice between two awful alternatives. The SoI&F stories focus more on how people get to those choices. Regardless, Styron and Martin obviously subscribe to the same general theory of story-telling: you get story from presenting people “lesser of two evil” (or “greater of two goods”) choices, and then exploring the how characters evolve towards or as a result of those choices.

  61. LukaNieto,

    I don’t think that will happen, but of the two options that is infinitely more likely. As I said, either we get a new Jeyne Poole stand in (Winterfell Worker) or the whole element is scrapped. That’s my guess. The latter is looking more likely at the moment.

  62. LukaNieto,

    I agree. Treat her as Northern Girl #3 (and, hell, don’t even mention her real name- for thematic purposes) and this plot would be great in the show. It’s also pretty ironic that a nobody becomes Arya Stark (everybody fighting over her and all) while the real Arya Stark becomes no one.
  63. jentario:

    It’s also pretty ironic that a nobody becomes Arya Stark (everybody fighting over her and all) while the real Arya Stark becomes no one.

    Good one. I enjoy that quite a bit.

  64. jentario:

    It’s also pretty ironic that a nobody becomes Arya Stark (everybody fighting over her and all) while the real Arya Stark becomes no one.

    Well, isn’t that the story of Crows and Dragons? (I prefer

    “Kill the Boy, Become the Man,” but this “everybody trying to be someone else” is a more general description.
  65. Wimsey:
    Now, it might have made things easier if they had someone to whom the audience could latch: but they didn’t.(Martin didn’t either: only the most hardcore of fans remembered his choice!)

    I remembered her which is what made it so shocking.

  66. Sandor Claws: I remembered her which is what made it so shocking.

    Yes: but you are a hardcore fan! I am, too: but I didn’t remember who she was. (I dimly recalled the name, mind you: but a name means nothing.) Although I skimmed through Thrones before Dragons, I don’t think that she got any development. Thus, whether she was some innocent who really didn’t deserve this (very SoI&F) or some Medieval Valley Girl who deserved something but not this much (also very SoI&F), I didn’t (and still don’t) know. The Dragons narrative actually implied the latter when Theon recounts how said the faux name treated the real person!

    It also didn’t matter: it was never about her, whoever she is, anyway.

  67. I don’t consider myself a hardcore fan – just discovered the books this past summer – but I remembered Jeyne when

    Jaime saw her in Kings Landing with Steelshanks Walton

    . It seems to me that her part in Book 1 is more than incidental. She provides the contrast for Sansa at the Tourney of the Hand when Sansa is complimenting herself on remaining stoic over Ser Hugh’s death while Jeyne seems to have a real sense of loss and maybe figures out the falseness of the Tourney “glamour”. Also Jeyne’s crush on Beric Dondarion is used to illustrate how aware Sansa is of her own highborn status and that Sansa simply accepts this concept of human inequality as a given. Cersei’s urgent removal of Jeyne from Sansa’s room after Ned’s death illustrates the total isolation of Sansa from everything and everyone she knows, and that Cersei is going for full-on Stockholm Syndrome treatment for Sansa. And Littlefinger’s willingness to enslave Jeyne in one of his brothels is just more early-on evidence of how venal he is. Apologize in advance if I used spoiler code incorrectly – my first time using spoiler code on this site.

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