Here at Watchers on the Wall we’re always concerned about what the running time in next season’s episodes will be, obsessing over minutes and even seconds, as we’d like to squeeze as much Thrones out of HBO as we possibly can. Okay, we’re a bit crazy. However, I believe it’s fair to say this has been a particularly contentious topic lately, so much so that even casual fans have jumped on board the worry-train, as season eight will only have six episodes, as opposed to the usual ten, or even last season’s seven. Thankfully, we were promised longer episodes, time and time again, but no one has been specific about just how long each episodes in the final season will be… until now!
Yesterday, in an event teasing their upcoming content, French TV network Orange Cinéma Séries, in which Game of Thrones is aired, announced the final six episodes will be “XXL,” as entertainment magazine Premiere live-tweeted. How “XXL”, exactly?
Précision utile : @OCSTV a expliqué oralement que les deux premiers épisodes de la saison finale de #GameOfThrones allaient durer 60 minutes, et les quatre suivants 80 mn d'après les dernières infos de HBO https://t.co/UIDwB7xtvU
— Première (@PremiereFR) 22 January 2019
You don’t have to read French to know what that means. Just in case, what the OCSTV representative said is that, according to what HBO last told them, the first two episodes of season eight will be an hour long, which is par for the course for Game of Thrones in terms of long-ish episodes… while the final four episodes will be about 80 minutes —as long as the longest episodes yet, last season’s finale, The Dragon and the Wolf.
Obviously, these are not official running times. In the coming months, as HBO adds the final episodes to their online schedule, we’ll learn their actual length, but in the meantime these are the closest approximations we’ve gotten yet. Though I’m sure final edits will result in changes, and the OCSTV rep was giving us round numbers anyway, not exact figures, if they hold more or less true it means the final season will be as long as season seven, at 7 hours 20 minutes, even though the latter comprised seven episodes instead of six, amongst which were the two longest yet in Game of Thrones:
As you can see, the average season eight episode should be about 73 minutes long, which is ten minutes longer than the previous record held by season seven, and almost twenty minutes longer than what the show’s average was before this revelation.
Before you go, have fun looking at that chart I’ve personally had in my files for years, now with the latest updates on it. However you look at it, it’ll be a mammoth of a season. Even if you’re only judging the season’s overall length, it’s a miracle that it only falls a few hours short of the usual, despite having little more than half the episodes.
H/t to WiC for picking up on the original tweets!
ASNAWP!
..WOA…great length for 6 episodes just
This is way better than I was expecting. I was telling myself I would be happy with about 60 to 70 for the first 4 and 75 to 80 for the final two. So this is FANTASTIC!
I’m glad to see it those runs times I was worry about it! Came April come sooner lol also not at the same time
JenniferH,
agreed, better than I expected!
80 minutes for the last four episodes…this is almost double the length of an average GoT episode!
So excited.
I wish they had filmed a wrap up show for a 7th episode. Just cast and crew talking about the show for an hour.
Not bad at all, but I wish the premiere was a little longer. No episode hits the 90 minute mark either.
Eddie,
I do think they filmed something like that with Sean Bean etc. Don’t know exactly what it will be, but it will be interesting I guess.
Gee, I’m disappointed. Not only did we lose an episode, we waited almost 2 years since the beginning of the last season. In my mind, same overall length doesn’t equate to movie length six movies. I was honestly expecting more, as in 9hrs total run time for all six at movie length.
Suppose I’ll get over it and thankful the let down is coming with plenty of time to adjust my expectations before we begin the final feast.
Damn, though. I’m sad.
Jack Bauer 24,
These are not the final running times. They will only know that once everything has been edited. It’s still almost 3 months.
Yeah true, but usually you don’t jump from 80 to 90 minutes in editing. I’m sure it will be spectacular either way.
Olli,
I mean…it was never going to be 9 hours. Why even bother having shorter episodes if that was the case. Just not rational.
Olli,
That was never going to happen. Disappointment requires surprise, and to be surprised that the final season won’t be 9 hours long you had to do all the work in your mind. Though it’s true cast and crew have said the final season feels like watching six films, they didn’t say that each episode would be 90 minutes long. That’d make no sense; they are making fewer episodes to focus more of the budget in each single episode, so having the season be as long as a traditional one would defeat the point.
They also said they’d be feature length, and they are (the first two, at 60 minutes, only arguably; the other four definitely.) Each time some producer or actor said something like this, we were careful to qualify their statements and put them in context, precisely so people wouldn’t be disappointed when the final season didn’t turn out to be six 90-to-120 minutes extravaganzas.
Personally, I expected most episodes to be in the 60-to-70 min mark, with a few reaching 90. Instead, we have more than half the season with 80 min episodes. Same result in the end.
At the end of the day, the fact is that, as revealed by the EW set report, the showrunners’ original plan was to make three movies as a final season. Three epic length theatrical movies; not six. Instead, they did six very long episodes, amounting to the same length.
I was hoping the finale would be… oh I don’t know… like five years long. 😛
With seriousness, I was hoping for a two hour finale but I’m certainly not going to complain if we get four 80 minute episodes to end the series. 🙂
Yeah 4 80ish minute episodes is great. With the 17 month wait so far (19 1/2 when S8 premieres) I just want as much as we can get lol.
So looks like both the official GoT and HBO Facebook pages removed the statue teaser with the premiere date video from their pages? They’re both still showing the Dany/Sansa/Jon/Winterfell “Coming in 2019” clip though. Can anyone else confirm this?
Eddie,
Apparently they have shot. Sean bean and other cast members right from season 1 have shot a special episode where they talk about the show.
Ten Bears,
I should have used my first comment privilege on a “Hodor!”, followed by the incantation:
“Lord, cast your light upon this man Hodor, your servant. Bring him back from death and darkness. His flame has been extinguished. Restore it. For the night is dark and full of terrors. Lord, cast your light upon this man. Hold the door open for him to come back from death and darkness.”
Hibberd says “take this with several grains of bread and salt”
https://twitter.com/JamesHibberd/status/1088104304056172549
@JamesHibberd: Take this with several grains of bread and salt https://t.co/BNVtWYL1Ro #GameOfThrones
If I recall correctly, that was shot for the Conan O’Brien show
Yeah and it’s going to be on the Season 8 blu ray.
Jack Bauer 24,
Yep, I remember reading about that on WOTW a little while back. I was a bit surprised that Conan wouldn’t feature this on his own show, especially considering that he hosted it. You’d think it would be a ratings bonanza for him, but I assume they can’t do it for legal reasons that I don’t keep up with.
Happy to hear our suspicions were confirmed and that we will get so much glorious footage!! 😀
Jaime’s girl,
whoops wrong avatar. outed!
Jack Bauer 24,
The crypt video is still on there for me on the gameofthrones channel
So not the HBO page? The video is still on the GoT YouTube channel (not the HBO YT. Not sure if it was ever on there) and on the GoT/HBO Twitter pages, but I have to search for the teaser on FB to find it. If I just to to the GoT and HBO Facebook pages the last video posts are the “Coming in 2019” videos.
I thought previously that sometimes they take down videos when they are about to post another. I thought it was odd though since its only been a week and a half since the teaser and I’m not expecting the trailer for at least another month.
Luka Nieto,
“Before you go, have fun looking at that chart I’ve personally had in my files for years, now with the latest updates on it”
________________
Loved your chart! I’m into those kinds of analyses.
Unlike the original respondent’s “glass half empty” disappointed expectations, from my perspective roughly 440 minutes (7 hours, 20 minutes) of screen time translates to ten episodes of a one-hour network TV show: Subtracting commercials during and after episodes, their run time often averages out to about 45 minutes. [If I had the fortitude – and I don’t – I’d divide S8 into ten segments, insert my own “commercial breaks”, and watch each segment a week apart. That way, my S8 would last over two months.]
Now I’ve got to do an updated percentage calculation of Season 8’s proportionate share of the total run time of all eight seasons, to reaffirm my Wimsey/Chekhov assumption that each “gun” must have been hung already in Seasons 1-7, and any bullets still left in the chamber have to be fired sometime in the last six episodes. After the mathematical exercise, I ought to make a mental list of those unfired guns and bullets.
This is all good news if the projected S8 episodes run times are accurate.
I feel the same way. I’m not sure why some were expecting each of the episodes to be super long. It kind of comes off as spoiled, IMO. Let’s just enjoy what we get while the getting’s good, you know?. It won’t be long before GoT is over forever and then there won’t be anything left at all, let alone extra long episodes.
This is great news, indeed. I don’t care as much about length so much as quality.
I binged season 7 last night and God it is really uneven quality wise, boring and awful, for the most part. I skipped most of the last two episodes as they are simply dreadful. The finale is worst Game of Thrones episode ever!
So here’s hoping they go out with a bang. Whether it’s a long big bang or a short small bang I care not! I’m just praying they do indeed “get it right”
Jack Hamm,
I actually liked “The Dragon and the Wolf” for the most part. That and “Spoils of War” were my two favorite episodes of the season.
I thought episode 5 “Eastwatch” was the weak link of the season, but YMMV.
Jack Hamm,
I couldn’t disagree more. Season 7 may not have been my favorite season, but it was still absolutely amazing!
Mr Derp,
Did you really? I found everything about the episode wrong. It was a big disappointment. The nebulous Dragon pit scene being a the top of my hate list. LOL!
Episode 3 was ok and Episode 4 was stupendous; One of my favorites, ever! The rest all contained a scene ( sometimes two) which made me cringe.
Young Dragon,
I too feel that “whenever people agree with me, I always fear I must be wrong.”
Jack Hamm,
The Finale of Season 7 was the worst episode ever???
I think it’s safe to disregard this as a TROLL POST.
TheMannis,
Obviously, you should not attempt thinking.
The nerve of these people!
Mr Derp,
Re: “Spoils of War” – I totally geeked out the moment I saw the back of Arya’s head as she was entering the WF courtyard. Then everything about the sparring match with Brienne, from the dagger twirl at the beginning to the dagger flip at the end, was A+. Jamie, Bronn & Lannister Army vs. Dany, Dothraki & Drogon in the last 15-20 minutes was icing on the cake.
Jack Hamm,
I’m curious: Aside from the completely ridiculous Littlefinger “trial” by ambush, what was it about the Season 7 finale that made it the “worst GoT episode ever” in your view? You mentioned the Dragon Pit scene. It wasn’t heart-pumping, edge-of-your-seat exciting, but it wasn’t wight hunt plan-level silly either.
Honestly, I’m not challenging your opinion. I’m intrigued about it.
Upon further investigation looks like only HBO Canada Facebook page has the “Crypts of Winterfell” teaser. It’s the “pinned post” so very first post. It was pinned on GoT and HBO, but has been unpinned and removed from both pages.
Do you even math ? Double the length of the average GoT episode would be 110 minutes.
Probably in the bonus features. Though to be honest, I’m not getting my hopes up, as GoT bonus features have mostly been underwhelming to me. Nowhere near the quality of the BTS on something like Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit.
Yeah, I’m a little disappointed about no 90 minute episodes.
Westworld and True Detective and the Leftovers have all had a 90 minute episode at some point, why not Game of Thrones ?
Sorry but you were expecting waaaay too much. To get 9 hours out of 6 episodes, each episode would have had to be 90 minutes. That’s insane.
And if they had actually produced 9 hours of content, it would have defeated the purpose of doing a shorter season, which was to spend more time and more money on fewer hours.
9 hours would basically be the same length as all their 10 episode seasons. They wouldn’t have the time or the budget to do that properly. The wait between seasons would have been even longer, and the budget even crazier.
They needed 10 months of filming and a massive budget just to make these last 7 hours.
Yes, but more editing typically leads to shorter runtimes, not longer. Unless they move a lot of scenes from one episode to another, but that won’t change the overall runtime of the season.
Luka Nieto,
Exactly. And if we divide the approx. 440 minute runtime of this final season by 3, we get three 146 minute movies.
So they pretty much stuck to their vision. We’re essentially getting three 2.5 hour movies, spread over 6 episodes.
While I don’t agree that it’s the worst ever, I do agree that Season 7 is probably the weakest, in my view.
Most Season 7 episodes are weaker than most of the show’s episodes. Again this is just my opinion, but it’s an honest one nonetheless.
Calling people “TROLLS” (obnoxiously capitalized, to boot) because they do not share your opinion is childish and just creates a toxic environment.
It shouldn’t be tolerated in a community where people want civil discussion.
People are perfectly entitled to feel that the finale of Season 7 was the worst episode.
It’s their opinion.
There has to be a worst episode at some point in the show’s run, unless you think they’re all equal in quality.
Unfortunately there are quite a few people in fandom who will call others “trolls” for having the audacity to disagree with them and not have the exact same taste as they do.
Pretty ridiculous and disgusting.
While I’m not Mr. Hamm, and I don’t share his opinion 100%, I’ll still attempt to offer a couple insights.
The Dragon Pit sequence and all related scenes take up about 30 to 40 minutes (can’t remember the precise figure) of the episode. As such, the quality of those 30 to 40 minutes and your enjoyment of them will probably tremendously impact your analysis of the episode as a whole.
Personally, I found 90% of the writing and dialogue in all those KL scenes to be extremely weak. Hence I didn’t really enjoy them.
I also found the entire Winterfell story to be terrible, and therefore didn’t enjoy any WF scenes in 7.07.
I’m left having enjoyed 4 scenes : the fall of the Wall, Jaime and Cersei’s falling out, Theon and Jon’s talk, and the beach scene.
That’s why 7.07 would probably rank in my 10 least favorite GoT episodes.
Regardless of how everyone felt about the entire S7, this point is a rather ‘popular’ opinion. I personally wouldn’t use the word ‘terrible’ to describe it but I did think it was rather weak. So, I guess ‘weak’ is my descriptor.
I’ve written before during this year and half wait that I felt they came up with the Littlefinger trial/execution scene first and then filled in the prior scenes to achieve it. That scene itself was rather satisfying anyway, but the way they got there wasn’t so much. I may have enjoyed the rest had they not forced Arya into that story arc and had Sansa deal with it on her own. I won’t get into my ideas for an alternate Arya storyline again but there were plenty of other things she could have done to continue her series long individual story than essentially pausing it for half the season.
Nick20,
To be fair, this is a fan site for Game of Thrones. If someone comes on here and starts saying how much they hated season 7 then…well…ok, but be specific about it, and be articulate. Don’t just drop by the site and say you hated season 7 because..reasons…it won’t go over well.
Having said that, I do agree there are a lot of people on this site that preach tolerance and open-mindedness, but only if they agree with what you say. The world needs to be open to a diverse variety of opinions whether popular or unpopular, otherwise we open up the door for censorship, which, I believe you mentioned last night in another thread, is a slippery slope. Life isn’t all about hearing what you want to hear. Life isn’t very interesting or challenging if you only hear what you want to hear. The only way for a person to grow and gain wisdom is to understand all perspectives, or at least as many as possible.
Fully agreed. Everything you said is spot on.
Hope others will heed your words.
Ten Bears,
From what I remember: The directorial mess of the Dragon Pit encounters. Aimless direction, weak script, Dany dropped off by Drogon and dusted up when he departs as if she had hitchhiked her way on his back, No tension when she and Cersei meet the first time. Jon and Dany’s love scene got the short shrift. Grey Worm and Messandei received more screen time in spite of missing half of the equipment. Rheagar and Lyanna reveal was disappointing as the actor portraying him looked ridiculous compared to the mythical build up the character recieved in books and show. The Night King on Verserion reminded me of Elvira Mistress of the Dark movies. Pure camp it was, although the wall coming down was thrilling. Interesting enough. I found Little Finger’s murder scene riviting and very memorable. I could go on but this phone is driving my crazy!
Nick20,
How would you rank season seven in the series so far?
Do you think we wait to see the payoff in season eight, since seven is a setup to eight. Or is it that the writers rushed everything and needed to take more time to write better, or should hv expanded the writers long ago ?
Mr Derp,
Your observation is dead on. I’ve never wanted -and do not need or care if- others agree or disagree with my views. Currently , many seem not to hold such views. Sadly, this is the modern mania of the “Information Age.” Expect strong opinions to be met with vulgarity. In different eras people listened, made their points and politely disagreed. No more. And so it goes.
Nick20,
I concur with your astute summary.
Anyone noticed the 6×90′ in the picture though?
Jack Hamm,
In all fairness, Grey Worm did “many things.” He must be an oral savant.
I do think though that Jon & Dany “romance” got rushed. In S7e3 he’s calling her out on her self-entitlement and knee bending demands; yet by episode 7 he’s (unnecessarily) relinquished his crown and the North’s sovereignty, and shows up at her stateroom door and two seconds later they’re going at it.
It would’ve been nice if that supposed mutual attraction had been shown developing.
Ten Bears,
Uuuh, Ten Bears –
sometimes there’s no time – it happens. Suddenly, sudden.
Afterwards You wonder. Perhaps.
Afterwards You’re ashamed. Perhaps.
Afterwards You try to forget and not regret. Perhaps.
M-Maybe.
Jack Hamm,
Here’s the way I see it: There are always going to be a few misfires and underwhelming scenes or story lines. They’re far outnumbered by the really good ones. For instance, the whole Psycho Arya aka Little Miss Lie Detector, and Sansa “Only a Fool Would Trust LF” Stark getting fooled by LF was very disappointing. And to this day, I still don’t know what LF’s “plan” was – or why he would depend on Arya not answering the simple question from Sansa, “Where did you get this letter?”
Yet, I really liked the sisters’ Ep. 7 battlements scene. And there were other unexpected aspects of S7 I really liked, eg, Beric’s conversations with Sandor and with Jon.
I guess the “wonky” bits stick out like a sore thumb. The excellent parts don’t get nearly the amount of praise they fairly deserve in proportion.
Ten Bears,
“He must be an oral savant.” Ha,ha! You made my day! Made my day!!!
I loved Arya’s scenes in Season 7. ALL OF THEM!!! For me this is ironic as in earlier seasons I became really annoyed with the Stark girls, especially Sansa. Not so much with Arya, except the wearisome House of the Undying scenes with the Waif. They are not girls anymore and Sophie Turner is a really fine actress and quite a statuesque beauty. Sansa has come a long way and Arya has turned into the baddest B—h around.
I think Seasons 6 and 7 are by far the weakest in terms of the quality of the writing and storytelling, which is what I’m mostly focused on. Obviously in terms of spectacle, they’re the best.
A lot went wrong with Season 7 in my view, I could write an essay about it. But it boils down to this : nothing of consequence really happened. The show has been spinning its wheels for a while now. They know the endgame, but that’s it. So they don’t know how to write a compelling journey to the endgame. They’re stalling.
Look at the first 4 episodes of Season 7. They may seem great, with lots of battles and excitement. But what came of them ? The entire conflict between Dany and Cersei has precisely one significant consequence : Olenna died. That’s it.
Dany did not actually capture any castles, except Casterly Rock, which by the end of the season she has given up. She won a couple battles, Cersei won a couple battles, and basically nothing changed. The political status quo isn’t really affected. Dany still has her armies, Cersei somehow also still has her armies, and nothing has changed in the balance of power, except that Jon pledged himself to Dany.
But she doesn’t actually control any part of Westeros.
And this just adds to the nonsensical political situation on the show. Dorne is somehow out of the picture, despite the fact that Ellaria and her daughters being killed shouldn’t stop the Lords of Dorne from still being with Dany, but whatever, apparently they’re gone now.
The Stormlands have been an unanswered question mark since Stannis died. Guess they decided to stay out of it.
The Reach is a mystery. The Tyrells are apparently extinct. House Tarly would logically assume power. With Randyll and Dickon being dead, that would make Talla the Lady of Horn Hill. So now what ? Are the Lords of the Reach with Cersei or Dany ? We don’t know, and the show doesn’t care to let us known.
Last we saw was Dany burning the Tarlys and asking a rabble of 40 insignificant soldiers to bend the knee.
What about the Riverlands ? Jaime and Cersei mysteriously act like the Frey massacre is a big issue for them. Why ? Arya murdered Walder and his sons. Not the entire Frey army. And Arya didn’t kill any Frey women or children. So why should the Frey massacre mean they’ve lost military support in the Riverlands ? I don’t know, but that’s what Jaime claims in 7.01.
The Vale’s situation is also odd. Are they now under Jon, or simply allied with Jon ? If it’s the latter, does that make Robin Arryn King of the Vale ? Are the declaring independence ? Why are they all still hanging around Winterfell ?
The entire political situation is just a giant mess. The show is basically acting like only the Iron Islands, the Westerlands, and the North actually have armies and politics.
But anyway, the point is that the conflict between Dany and Cersei took 4 episodes, but yielded nothing of consequence.
Then the last 3 episodes are just a set up for the wight hunt, the wight hunt, and the dragon pit meeting.
What came of this ? Nothing. A false promise by Cersei, That’s what the wight hunt story has given us.
What are the other significant developments of the season ? I count three. Viserion died, Littlefinger died, and Jon slept with his aunt.
On the whole, these 7 episodes just don’t amount to much.
I think D&D should have taken more time to write (their schedule is insane, and they clearly write very fast, based on what they’ve said in interviews). They should have also hired more writers to help with dialogue, military strategy, continuity, consistency, etc…
Dave Hill and Bryan Cogman are not enough, clearly. Many shows that are far less complex than GoT have twice as many writers. Look at the Americans, or Breaking Bad. Brilliant shows, with large writers’ rooms.
Meanwhile GoT is the most complex TV production ever, with a million characters, a million locations, and million storylines, and they’ve only got 4 writers, two of which do 80% of the work.
They should have taken their time, fleshed out the Dany vs Cersei story, paid more attention to consistency and story logic, and not rushed to the conclusion of the series.
I think 13 episodes post-Season 6 was just not enough. Season 7 should have been a full ten episode run, even if they needed to take two years off to do it.
Ten Bears,
I agree with you that one of the things I liked about season 7 and episodes 6 and 7 in particular were a number of the small moments, including Beric with Jon, but also the Hound with Tormund, Brienne and the Mountain, Cersei’s death stare at Tyrion at the DP, and Tyrion’s scene with Cersei. On rewatching, I thought some of the parts that were heavily criticized when they first aired (eg, the WF plotline) held together better if you have the right frame of mind (eg, Sansa never trusted LF and the plot was a necessary arc for what will happen in Season 8).
But I respect those who have different viewz, and I readily acknowledge that season 7 was much more melodramatic than previous seasons and moved towards more epic tropes that many in the fandom despise. D & D did a very good job in my opinion of adapting such complex material, but it obviously became much more difficult to adapt an outline; the final GRRM product will be so much richer and textured and undoubtedly would have helped create a better show. But we don’t have that and will have to hope that the hard work the cast and crew have put into season 8 will meet the huge expectations that are being created by the hype machine!
Meanwhile, the reason I keep coming back to this site is because of the very different opinions that are expressed here — keep them coming!
Indeed, that is so. If this list becomes the final episode durations, it should be sufficient. But it’s still provisional. The past isn’t written and the ink dry. It’s likely that final editing will be more likely to leave them slightly longer. Two reasons: 1) Even D&D are human and it’s hard to say goodbye. They may be slightly indulgent to their cast and crew family. 2) They’re doubtless aware that many fans and telly critics have whinged that Season 7 felt’rushed’, and plot lines under-served due to insufficient scenes. D&D may over-correct to avoid this accusation in their culminating, valedictory series. But….by the old gods and the new, I hope they don’t emulate Peter Jackson’s never-ending endings to his masterpiece, Return of the King.
Nick20,
I agree that there are many unanswered questions about the political situation in Westeros which D & D are not drawing clearly, and can are frustrating. As I said in my post above, though, it is hard to write the ending of A Song of Ice and Fire if you only have an outline.
However, I don’t think one can say nothing happened, and much of this may be clearer after Season 8 (in that Season 7 is a set up for what happens). Eg, Dany has allied with the North and is released from a stalemate with Cersei to go on the monster hunt, and Jon has let his emotions get the best of him and pledged himself to House Targaryen; Sansa has consolidated her hold over the Northern Lords and made peace with Arya and Bran; Cersei and Jaime have had an irreparable breach, dividing House Lannister for a second time, and cersei is forced to bring foreign mercernaries to Westeros, making her no better than Dany; and the question of who is the rightful heir to the IT is in clear dispute.
Not exactly nothing.
Interesting, I had a completely different experience. When I rewatched the series, I wasn’t looking forward to season 07 because I had issues with it, but watching all 7 episodes together, it held together beautifully for me. Even the Winterfell arc–which I had previously found all kinds of wrong with–worked all around. I loved the season.
JenniferH,
That is why I’ve recently re-watched the whole series, thanks to the 7 Season Blu-ray set I made myself a birthday present of last fall. Having felt Season 6 was unsatisfying, after re-watching it several times over the years, and especially in my latest viewing binge, my mind has changed. Its Finale is one of the finest Game of Thrones episodes.
Season 7 is another thing, however. There are some great scenes (Olenna’s death, Dany burning the Tarlys, Arya with the Winterfell guards and a few others) and one great episode #4 but the rest I cannot wrap my mind around. Maybe with more views.
The final season has me so excited and anxious, I can barely focus on my life!!! Only one other TV show has captured my imagination like GOT, and that was the original ‘Dark Shadows’ in the 1960s. I feel as if I’m seven years old again! Keeping fingers crossed in hopes we will not receive another ‘Sopranos’ or ‘Lost’ or ‘Seinfeld’ finale.
That’s the outcome of Tyrion’s scheming, though. The fact Dany has nothing to show for the 4 episodes of Tyrion’s strategy even though she has a massive army and dragons, shows how devastating he has been to her cause.
1. He got all her allies killed
2. He proposed a wight hunt then told Dany to leave the wight hunters to die
3. He proposed a parlay with Cersei that he knows wouldn’t work
The only success Dany had was when she ignored Tyrion’s advice. She forced Cersei to have to contract fighters from Essos after the loot train losses; and she won herself an ally when she saved Jon and Co. at the wight hunt.
Anon,
Yeah, Tyrion really let Dany down and people are all like “mad queen” when she got angry with him, I’d be bloody angry with him too. He falsely advertised to her in S5 he was the greatest Lannister killer when trying to join her but that was obviously a bluff, Tyrion does not want his family dead I understand that but his delusional if he somehow thinks there is a world where Cersei abdicates the throne willingly by starving KL out, Dany takes the throne and they all live happily ever after. There is a reason Jorah got back to Dany so late and that’s because they needed him and his actual logical ideas and plans out of the way as Dany definitely trusts Jorah’s counsel so Dany would only have Tyrion to screw everything up.
Nick20,
Thanks for the detailed response. I agree with alot of what you said. I truly hope that the misteps will be overshadowed by the payoffs in the final season. Where we can enjoy all aspects of the show thats true to the characters we been watching.
I hear you. Spontaneity can be stupid or exciting – or both.
As to Jon & Dany, all I meant was that even in the abbreviated time frame, maybe a few unspoken signals, stolen glances, or slight flirtations could have conveyed their mutual attraction, without eating up screen time.
For example, it can be a subtle look, for only a second or two, like in the brief scene in S5e4 when Jaime and the captain, on the deck of the Dorne-bound ship, pass a land mass in the distance:
Jaime: “Is that Estermont?”
Captain: “Tarth, Ser Jaime. The Sapphire Isle.”
The wistful smile on Jaime’s face spoke volumes; You could tell he was thinking fondly of Brienne.
I’m not complaining. Dany & Jon hooking up was a foregone conclusion. ever since Melisandre the Matchmaker showed up in Episode 2 touting the King in the North, followed by Tyrion’s glowing endorsement.
I guess I just enjoy build-up and anticipation….
Blah blah blah…To date Season 7 including the season Finale are some of the highest rated episodes of the show to date.
Only on certain forums and online do you find trolls Jack Hamm and his fake username complaining.
The show is more popular than ever and not one person that I’ve met offline has complained.
You are entitled to your opinion…but your negative attitude and constant whinging is not needed.
I haven’t watched Season 7 in its entirety since it aired. I’ve watched Spoils of War and the Wall coming down a bunch of times though. I’m currently doing a rewatch and I’m halfway through Season 2. I look forward to rewatching Season 7.
Ten Bears,
I am also quite curious about odd artistic choices around the Jon/Dany romance. I do think Jon and Dany are important in the magic part of the story and important together as a couple.
Their romance was odd. It was rushed but then I thought they met in S7 and so they have only a few episodes to do it. Plus the Jon and Daenerys are not always great actors so they maybe struggled to sell it. So I accepted the romance as OK.
However, their love scene was filmed in the most unusual way. The first love scene of a couple that is deeply connected emotionally is normally handled with endearments, disrobing and exploration, kissing and lots more sense occasion than this sex scene was given. (Even in a very passionate urgent encounter, you get more than we saw.) Missy-Grey Worm, Jon-Ygritte, Robb-Talisa etc seem to have a more conventional lead in to the loving. Even Sam had some kissing with Gilly. I do not know what to make of it. I think Jon-Deanayers are a couple in love. However, their first sex scene lacked the sense of wonder or even a sense of driving passion. It was OK – but that could not have been the primary love/sex scene in the story.
My guess is that they wanted to build anticipation for the following season. A conventional love scene would not have accomplished that (or it wouldn’t have been as effective), which is why they decided intercut it with the R+L scene. I believe Dan Weiss said it’s an “information bomb that they’re walking into”; they want the audience asking questions such as “What will Jon do when he finds out he slept with his aunt” and “What will Dany’s reaction be when she finds out Jon is heir to the throne”.
If their relationship survives that conflict/drama, then perhaps they’ll have a more conventional scene after, but I doubt there’s time for that.
My belief is that D&D would love nothing more than give the loyal fans a super extra long episode in season 8, therefore my $$$ is on them giving us at least a 90 minute episode that was scripted to be that length excluding credits.
Cool beans!
Now air them every other week instead of every week, and I’d be super duper happy. 😛
Jack Bauer 24,
How often do you watch to make it in time?
I was thinking about doing a rewatch, but decided I was too late. So now I’m scrolling through the first 5 seasons and watch the most fun parts, and want to watch season 6 and 7 entirely. Maybe also with commentary because I just bought the dvd’s 😀
Indeed. I agree that Jorah would have questioned Tyrion’s counsel, not unlike how Greyworm and Missy did in Mereen. My mistake saying that Dany saved Jon. It’s Benjen who ultimately saved Jon, Dany only flew to Jon’s aid.
It just hit me that Jon then risked his life to save Dany and his team, and Drogon. Oh sweet baby Jesus, are we going to have to watch in horror as these two Targaryens try to out-valour each other to death on screen?
I sure hope not.
Nick20,
I think Seasons 6 and 7 are by far the weakest in terms of the quality of the writing and storytelling, which is what I’m mostly focused on. Obviously in terms of spectacle, they’re the best.
I agree with this! Especially regarding season 7.
TheMannis,
“Fake user name”????? And YOU”RE complaining? Ha, ha, ha!
Did your mummy really name you “TheMannis”? Ah! It is such a genuine moniker. How original. Fake user names on a internet blog? Who would have thunk? Well I do declare! Why… I have never…
Go and find the ones using fake names here and tell them you expressly forbid them to do so. It would be terrible if posters used fake names!
“Complaining”??? That is what idiots do. I only criticize.
Your blindly positive attitude and constant praise are not “needed” either. We’re all just expressing our opinions, which we have every right to do. If this community becomes a toxic space where criticism of the show is met with bullying, that would be extremely disappointing.
Stop calling people trolls for disagreeing with you.
Also, popularity and ratings have nothing to do with the quality of the writing or the storytelling. Yes the show is popular. So what ? Does that mean it’s perfect ? No. Also people watch the show because it’s epic and has become a phenomenon. They tune in for the spectacle and excitement regardless of the quality of the writing. No one is dropping the show, even those who have issues with it.
Ratings are not a valid way of measuring quality.
I do believe The Hound would call most of this whingeing lol
Unrealistic expectations often lead to disappointments. If you didn’t like the last two seasons, you won’t like S8, that’s for sure.
D&D won’t change their winning formula.
mau,
These are wise words. I tried to be kind to the showrunners/writers given that they were on their own, and I really enjoyed the last two seasons. I intend to do the same come April.
Luka Nieto,
I meant to say thanks for the chart. I wonk out on this kind of thing.
Is there a contest going on to guess the runtime of the longest episode in season 8?
I agree with everything in your post except this. How do you know why people watch GOT? For me, it’s not just about the spectacle, but about the high quality writing and the intriguing characters.
While I do believe they could have done more, they were able to get in some things within the rush of a handful of episodes to show that there is an attraction and a growing bond and care for each other. They may have been minor but they were there in scenes between the two and them with others; Davos’ comment to Jon that wasn’t denied, the heartfelt goodbye eyes & words to Jon when he left for Eastwatch, Tyrion & Daenerys’ fireside discussion when she was worried about Jon, her rushing to save (him) against Tyrion’s pleading, the sadness she had hoping Jon would return against small odds, sitting bedside while he recovered, Jon telling her she’s a worthy queen and deserves it, their personal Dragonpit conversation. I felt it was all quite clear that they are drawn to each other.
It should be noted that neither of them were looking to begin a romantic relationship during a time of war and so they’d also be pushing aside those types of feelings as much as they could rather than flirting and such. We also need to remember that we were witnessing them realizing their feelings, not a full blown relationship (yet), that just happened to include the last scene of them giving in to their growing attractions and urges. We don’t know yet how it will develop but we can assume that they’re probably going to have some conversations about it with consideration given to where their focus should be and what they’re up against.
Clob,
This was my take as well. Also, I think the cave scene was pretty obvious.
As for the expected running lengths- this is good news, and seems right about where I expected it based on the unofficial comments we’ve received thus far. Stoked!
Nick20,
Okay, and you are Jack Hamm using this name to argue with people who disagree with your VERY unpopular opinion.
Seek help immediately!
Mattos,
Lol! Exactly! A drop in quality where?? Season 6 is regarded among one of the best.
Lol this is why I stay off these forums the constant complaining of these so called “intellectuals” is so annoying.
Go write a better show if you don’t like it.
Clob,
I also have no complaints about how they presented Jon and Daenerys falling for each other. The signs were subtle, but they were there.
Agreed. As for writing/spectacle they aren’t mutually exclusive. While I love good writing (which I believe every season has), I want ALL the spectacle. I want every last drop that HBO’s pockets can muster. No other show can do spectacle like Thrones, so I want it while we can get it. Who knows what Wheel of Time and Amazon’s LotR will bring and who knows when those will even see the light of day.
Don’t forget The Witcher. That one is actually further along than those others. I’m not expecting anything great from The Chronicles of Narnia series. The movies kind of left people with a meh feeling. You’re right though to wonder what those “will bring.” It seems like Hollywood and cable/streaming companies have failed more times than not lately when their primary goal is to make something big and popular. GoT went well above what anyone would have thought, but it just happened, they didn’t try to force it.
Lots lots of discussion here, I will not reply on every single on of them but I give my view below.
Run time: We have to wait, James Hibberd told us take it with a grain of Salt, meaning there is a truth in the run times but more not true, than true. Also I expect the run times to fluctuate a lot, they already told us they knew exactly what to tell in each episode and every episode is a part of the bigger story. They didn’t concern with to much shifting. They knew what will be told per episode and they wrote that and filmed that. If every episode will be around the same run time it will be very convenient.
Quality of season 7 and 7×04 7×06 and 7×07: Personally I don’t share the opinion of the complainers of season 7, they have their right to have their opinion, one person like this the other that, taste. But for me the season felt much better with reruns. The writing felt better (only the directing I found better in season 6), but the real quality of season 7 can only be told after season 8, I have a feeling they did include some small insides in what is going to happen in season 8 that we never thought of making the writing of season 7 much better.
Episode 4 for me I would rate lower than episode 6 and 7. For me episode 4 was amazing with the ending and the Arya Brienne scene but for me the rest not that much. Still would give it a solid 9.
Episode 6 is for me very underrated, all the human interactions in that scene was well written and gave the characters more development. Jorah Jon scene for instant. And the whole critic about the time that Dany flew in could be taken lighter (and why the complaining the earlier season had more of a teleport problem than this episode, LF for instance we didn’t care there why now?)
Episode 7 Begin with the dragonpit which held me on my seat the whole 40 minutes, when done I thought it was only 20 minutes max. And when Tyrion moved into Cercei’s chamber my body was full of adrenaline, and the Cercei/Jaime goodbye was one of the best scenes of the show. And it had my second favorite “scene” in the whole show. Winter reached KL and oldtown, just shivers down my spine.
Ranking the seasons for me:
1. Season 4
2. Season 6: Don’t get the hate, yes it was slow at the beginning but so was season 1 and 2. It had one of the best scenes of the show. And the best episode of the show in my opinion: Winds of Winter. Which was perfect from beginning to end, writing directing acting.
3. Season 1: Not really one thing bad only the LF talking about Brandon Stark duel which the average viewer didn’t hear one word of because 2 girls were moaning over it. Everything else perfect.
4: Season 7: Right in the middle, small things that could have been better still great season.
5: Season 5: Very dark season which made it hard to watch for some (and the sand snakes could have been better), but a lot happened, and a lot of great things. Don’t forget 5×07 5×08 5×09 and 5×10, which are one of the best episodes of the show
6: Season 3: Every episode had it big moment mostly at the end, only the ending felt not as an ending, Mysha remains my least favorite final episode. But overall the episodes relied to much on that endscene.
7: Season 2: Still great episode, Blackwater was a milestone of the show. But the pacing was moving to fast from scene to scene in my opinion. I remember that people made their own structure on forums how the episodes should have been (Less characters per episode more of one story per episode) and they read it and changed it for season 3.
Still very season is amazing in my opinion.
It’s about how well the season is written, not formula. There’s no formula in Seasons 6 or 7, in fact they’re arguably the least formulaic of the seasons.
Season 7 is very unusual, as will be Season 8. Very different pacing and structure to what we’re used to.
If they took their time writing Season 8 (which I think they did, as they were working on the scripts for a while), then there’s no reason to assume the final season won’t be stronger than Seasons 6 and 7.
It may very well be.
Perhaps I didn’t express myself well. First of all, I never said you were tuning in “just” for the spectacle. I never said that spectacle was the ONLY reason why people tune in, or that it’s everyone’s reason.
What I mean is that the scale of the show has become so grand that people consider it a cinematic event. Which has the effect that even when they aren’t satisfied with writing, they still watch.
And also has the effect of attracting tons of new viewers, even now.
The main pull of the show for mass audiences is that it’s a fantasy epic that is more spectacular than anything people have seen since Lord of the Rings, and it’s happening on TV.
The ratings being so high in Season 7 has nothing to do with writing. It’s simply not accurate to say that more viewers = better quality. Was Season 1 the weakest in terms of story and character ? I think not. The fandom survey done a while back shows that both book readers and show only viewers tend to hold it in very high regard, while Season 7 was ranked fairly low.
Each season has had more and more viewers, and that’s because of what Game of Thrones is doing, and how it’s changing TV by becoming a weekly movie. The Dragon and the Wolf did not pull 12 million viewers because people thought the Winterfell plot was so beautifully written.
No, I’m not. I don’t actually share Jack Hamm’s opinion about the season 7 finale, which you would know if you had bothered to read my posts.
I’m forced to conclude that you’re the only troll here. I’m not the one who needs help, you’re acting like an insane person. Learn to tolerate other people’s opinions, and you may grow as a person.
So if someone goes to a restaurant and has a meal they don’t like, will you tell them to go cook a better meal or shut up ? I don’t think so. People are allowed to criticize even if they might not be able to do better. If I have a meal I don’t like, I’ll say it, same thing if I watch a movie or an episode of TV that I have issues with.
Same when you watch sports. Do you only criticize an athlete’s performance if you could do better ? Doubt it.
And why are you constantly complaining about the fact that some people don’t share your opinion ? If it annoys you so much, ignore it ! It’s not that hard. Your blind praise annoys me, but you don’t see me harassing you about it.
As for the drop in quality, I think you’re misinformed. Look at the fandom survey done last year. Seasons 5 and 7 were ranked as the worst seasons. Season 6 was only ranked best by show only viewers, the others ranked it 4th.
Pretty sure that Seasons 5 and 7 being so low while Seasons 1, 3, and 4 are high is proof that overall people feel like there has been a decline in quality (from a writing perspective). Obviously spectacle has improved.
Almost everything you mentioned is set up for the last season, mostly pertaining to character relationships. The plot of Season 7, the events of Season 7, largely lacked direct impact or consequence.
We could have skipped most of the first 4 episodes, and the season would be exactly the same. Only difference would be Olenna’s fate.
90% of everything you mentioned could have been accomplished just with Episodes 5 through 7.
Bravo! That was sane, refreshing, true and very well put. I totally agree with everything you write.
Thanks for defending freedom of expression on a discussion forum from the “Internet crazies.”
I’m a big fan of the game series, so I’m interested to see how it turns out. I admittedly haven’t followed much of the shows production, but i have seen a lot of Twitter chatter about the casting. Specifically Cavill.
Ratings are no more valid/invalid then “fandom surveys”. Especially considering a lot of these “fandom surveys” have book purists trash the later seasons for any deviations.
Just wanted to point that out, although I do appreciate your posts and your ability to see both sides. I prefer “spectacle” more then you, but it’s refreshing to see your tolerance for both sides 👍
I do. Every single scene at the end of Return of the King was necessary. The fellowship reunites, Aragorn is crowned, the Hobbits return to the Shire only to find that they have changed, Frodo finishes the book and says the Shire has been saved, but not for him. He bids his friends farewell and leaves Middle Earth.
What would you take out ? Stories can’t just end, there needs to be an epilogue. I don’t think 20 minutes of wrap up after an 11 hour journey was excessive.
We had gone through three massive movies. The ending was more than earned. It was necessary and emotional.
I don’t want it to be like “Well, Sauron is defeated, by guys, roll credits”. That’s a horrible way to end a story.
With Game of Thrones, it will have been a 75 hour epic journey. So yeah, I expect a long epilogue, much longer than Return of the King’s epilogue. I want to see the aftermath. I want at least 30 to 40 minutes after the fighting ends. Otherwise it’s completely anti-climactic. I just sat through 75 hours of conflict for it to just….end ?
I’d much rather get a sense of what the consequences of those 75 hours are going to be. How are the survivors changed, how is the world changed, etc… What will our survivors’ lives be like ? Will they be able to move on ?
I want to get a glimpse of what everyone’s fate is. I don’t see how that can be excessive after 8 long years (or 23, if you’re a book reader).
Honestly, I’d be fine is Sapochnik wraps up all the fighting and battles at the end of Episode 5. Give me a final episode that wraps things up and serves as an epilogue.
Ah, Luka, I love you for “that chart I’ve personally had in my files for years“! I’m definitely a chart/Excel file type of gal.
This excellent news. Two first episodes being around 60 minutes and the last four around 80 minutes! Wow! That’s some seriously long episodes!
OK, so we only get six of them, but I’m thinking of the HBO head honcho (as reported here) watching the pre-cgi episodes and coming back feeling like he’d watched six great movies. So are the episodes kind of self-contained? Each telling a story from beginning to end, with maybe some continuity to the next episode’s story?
I won’t soft foot about it, S7 was a bit dissappointing to me. Many things felt a bit rushed, or illogical, and the pictorial storytelling was a bit lacking at times, I felt. I can forgive most, if it all was set up for S8 – I think since the last “book-based” seasons, S4 and partly S5, D&D’s focus has firmly been on the end game, the final season. The ending GRRM has told them. So the “off-book” seasons 6 and 7 are kind of place holders and set up to get to the final end game in S8.
I’m looking forward to S8 with a lot more confidence than many here seem to. OK, if it turns out to be less than satisfying from an artistic, story-telling point of view, I won’t be shy to criticise it. But I won’t criticise it for not confirming to my head canon. (It won’t. I have Jaime and Brienne getting married and raising several awesome knight children, male and female, while Brienne rules Tarth as the ruling Lady. Haha. I know 99.7% sure Jaime is going to die.)
Whatever we get, with these massively long episodes, I’m sure I’ll lap it up. Maybe criticise a thing here or there afterwards, but I’m not going into the final season expecting to slate and criticise it.
Wait and see. Also, what was that thing Syrio Forel told Arya. Ah. Look with the seeing, just so. Sage advice to us all.
Well, I never said that fan surveys were more valid than ratings. I never said they were a measure of quality. But they are a measure of what fans think of the quality. I simply used them to show that the least watched season, season 1, ranks extremely high, while the most watched season, season 7, ranks very low.
I was just making the point that there is no relationship between how many people watch and what the audience thinks of the writing. Which proves my point that the masses tune in for a variety of reasons, one of which is the event-like quality of the show.
Also if you look at the survey I’m referring to, it was separated into “book first”, “show then book”, and “show only” categories of viewers. So I wouldn’t worry about “book purists” tainting it.
Book purists are actually extremely rare. Most viewers aren’t readers of the books, for starters, and 90% of readers know that changes have to happen. No one actually trashes the show just for deviating. That’s kind of a myth. People criticize the show for making poor or unnecessary changes that make the story and characters worse.
Nonetheless, Seasons 4 and 6 rank very highly, so I don’t think faithfulness of the adaptation is one of the main criteria in the survey in question.
Here’s a link so you can see for yourself : https://watchersonthewall.com/fandom-survey-game-of-thrones/
In any case, I also very much appreciate your civility. Definitely refreshing to be able to discuss things in a respectful way !
Nick20,
It’s interesting to see how the opinions of book readers vs. non book readers vary so much. If I recall correctly, most of the GoT surveys show that season 1 is usually the favorite season for book readers. I assume it’s mostly because that particular season is the most faithful to the books.
As a show watcher only, I liked season 1 too, but when I rewatch it these days, I actually think it’s kind of a corny season compared to the others. It’s a much more raw, unfinished product and I don’t think the characters are fleshed-out as well as they are in later seasons. Especially the first half of the season. I think season 1 starts getting good around episodes 6 through 10.
For what it’s worth, my favorite season is season 4. I enjoyed pretty much every character arc that season except for Dany’s.
I agree. Every look, every hesitation.
We don’t need to be hit over the head about it, have it blatantly spelled out for those who can’t read hints.
If anything, I thought it was a bit slow and blatant. Anybody watching the show should know it’s kind of inevitable.
BTW, about the incestual aspect. In GRRM’s latest book, Fire and Blood, a history of the Targaryen regime, it’s clearly stated that the Faith views parent/child and sibling marriages as incestuous. Not aunt/nephew or uncle/niece. The latter kind happened apparently regularly, even within the Stark family, and nobody had a problem with it.
We might eww, but apparently it’s not an icky thing in their world. Like it wasn’t in medieaval and post-medieaval Europe. I give you the Habsburgs. Well, that didn’t end well in the long run… But the point is that their uncle/niece or aunt/nephew or cousin marriages weren’t generally viewed as taboo or morally wrong at the time. This is what GRRM is writing about, what he’s getting at, in his imaginary world.
Funny how most changes end up being “poor and unnecessary” to book readers in the end….
Season 4 is my favorite as well. It also has my favorite last 3 episodes of a season in a row with “Mountain vs The Viper”, “Watchers on the Wall” and “The Children”. It also has my favorite “non main character” in Oberyn and I love the finale scene with Arya sailing and the “The Children” is also one of my favorite musical tracks. So yeah, I’m very fond of Season 4 😁
Also, as a real sidenote about S7… Well, the wight hunt was kind of stupid. To my mind the worst bit of S7. The way it was set up and executed. But perhaps D&D had to get there because of what GRRM told them.
I cannot help but think there’s a book reason for it, for Jon (and Dany) taking a wight to King’s Landing and trying to use it to convince whomever is in charge of KL (in the potential future books, it might not be Cersei).
Should I put this in spoilers because it’s a book thing? Aw, I’ll do it. Book info in the spoilered bit.
talvikorppi,
In terms of incest in a historical context, I was told that the only close familial marriage that has not been found to be legally practised in some community or other is mother-son. Sibling, Father-child, Uncle/Aunt-Neice/Nephew, Cousins are all found. In modern times, at least one community has a traditional cultural expectation/requirement of marriage between twins of the opposite sex.
In terms of the religion in GOT materials – I find it a bit amusing that Tyrion could marry Mycella (spelling?) but Tommen could not marry Mycella. It seems that Tommen and Mycella would at least be peers but I would find both these matches to be weird.
Jack Bauer 24,
Check.
Nick20,
Formula means they have high ratings, support from critics and Academy. They created the biggest show in the world. From their perspective, there is no reason to change anything and I stand by what I said. If you didn’t like S6 and S7, you won’t like S8. It will be written in the same style.
I guess I’m lucky that I like every episode of every season and I could rewatch GoT until the end of time. Lol
Nick20,
I am not sure I agree with your storytelling analysis. Just as one example, Jaime’s decision to leave Cersei is influenced by his belief that they cannot win because of his experience in the Loot Train battle in episode 4. Decisions and actions by Arya, Jon, Daenerys, and Bran in episodes 2-4 all culminate in 5-7. And Yara’s capture and her fleet’s destruction pushes Daenerys more into Jon’s orbit (as reflected by the scene in which she asks Jon for his advice in matters of war). Mostly relational, for sure, but important to the story telling. But if it is geopolitical developments you are focused on, then I do get your point. How did this all become about season 7 anyway? lol
talvikorppi,
“Also, what was that thing Syrio Forel told Arya. Ah. Look with the seeing, just so. Sage advice to us all.”
__________
Only because you brought it up, Syrio told Arya in S1e8: “Watching is not seeing.”
Or if you prefer, it’s at 2:33 – 2:38 of the clip below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcjQ4rQQ8H8
Syrio: “My tongue lied. My eyes shouted the truth. You were not seeing.”
Arya: “I was so. I watched, but you…”
Syrio: “Watching is not seeing…”
That’s what my prof said, when I began to study fine arts: “What do You think, You will learn? Do You think, You are able to learn to see?”
Watching is not seeing, in deed.
But You have to watch to learn to see.
mau,
Lots of people agree with you
Clob,
To your excellent list I’ll add the moment when Daenerys gives Jon permission to mine the dragonglass, then looks wistfully at him as he leaves (unbeknownst to him, as he’s already turned away at her behest to get to it).
Being a visual person, I really like your story.
Being a language person, I also like the interplay of meanings, agency, embedded in the various verbs: look – watch – see. There’s a similar gradation with auditory perception to those that way talented: hear (general noise, speech, music, what we all hear) – listen – hear (understand subtle clues of what you’re hearing, able to separate the several strands, make sense of it).
As a visual person, I notice every costume, every set, every lighting. Every picture. They have meaning. But things like music just fly past me. Later on, I come on here and people are enthusing about “Rains of Castamere” subtly playing in the background during a scene or whatever. I never noticed.
The music and the sounds also carry meaning, I’m just kind of deaf to it. Auditorily, the only thing I hear is the dialogue (language thing) and maybe some really blatant music. Like the Light of the Seven in the beginning of season 6 finale. But even then, I was looking at visual clues to make sense of the story.
We have different brains. Brains that process the same input differently, to make sense of it all. I’m totally unmusical (though I enjoy music – I just don’t understand it at all) but very perceptive about language and visual clues like composition, colours, light.
The perfect ear is a music thing. Someone musically talented able to tell a note physically accurately. It’s a great talent, my niece has it. Less talked about is the perfect eye. There are a zillion colours in the world and I can accurately spot each one of them. It’s silly when I’m in the craft shop, having bought fabric for sewing, and the salesperson tries to find a matching thread. I go, “No. It’s that one.” And it always is. I imagine that is similar to a musical “perfect ear”. You just see/hear the thing. You can hardly understand people who do not see/hear it because it’s so obvious to you.
GoT is great visually. The sets, the costumes, the lighting. The scenes. The pictures. It’s a feast to the visual eye. Ehm… maybe also an auditory feast, thanks to the great music of Ramin and the great sound effects of Paula. Alas, wasted on this person.
I watch, I look, I try to see. Auditory is an afterthought for me. Even the dialogue, my personal and professional “thing”. And the music I never identify. I’m out of the loop.
All this just to say we see (ha!) differently. GoT has been a feast to all the senses, I hope S8 continues that way.
David A,
Didn’t Jaime leave because of cercei not including him with her plan? At least that’s what d and d said in that inside clip.
About season 7 still don’t see the hate. And yes Im not convinced of the love between those 2 but that’s not the writing problem and I think more people have that problem. Dany belongs to drogo and Jon to ygritte. That’s the problem.
About rushing their love. Did people never watched other good shows?? Their love isn’t rushed its stredged over 5 episodes. There are shows where only one episode is needed. For instance peaky blinders which had excellent writing. Sometimes a big event happen in one episode and it never feels rushed.
Damn. I must have been watching but not seeing.
Kevin1989,
W/r/t Jaime’s departure, Definitely on the exclusion piece but he says repeatedly that there is no army that can withstand the Dothraki screamers and it seems to me that her failure to accept that as a reality contributes to his acceptance that she is acting irrationally (altho it is true that he may recognize that she has a point in letting the AotD weaken her enemies for her).
Btw i bought the love story which as u point out was built over 5 episodes. But i am a romantic.
I’m willing to bet that if you add up the screen time Jon and Dany spent together it exceeds any other romance the show has had. People had their narrative that Season 7 would be rushed before it ever aired, and by god did they stick to that narrative
I had no issues with the Jon/Dany romance in season 7, and it didn’t feel like it came on too fast at all. My suspicion is that those who did would’ve had an issue with it even if it took all 8 seasons for it to finally come to fruition. I think some people just reject the entire idea of it, as it feeds into the whole “Disney” narrative with two main characters falling in love that people like to complain about .
Costello,
Mr Derp,
great points.
Although I am (of course) immensely flattered, I think that we can give good old Anton full credit on that: he didn’t mistake me for a lab tech and nick it from me from the next office over, after all! (I, on the other hand, did invent the “Nucweeahr Wessels” joke….. 😉 )
When it comes to looking over the unfired guns, hanging questions, etc., we should pay particular attention to what has happened over the last couple of seasons. It seems that there are a few things that have gotten a bit of emphasis that are still “hanging.” And, of course, just because some of guns already have been fired, it does not mean that they will not be fired again.
On the flip side, we can expect some pretty prodigious lists of “unanswered questions” from fans at the end. Thinking back to how Harry Potter fans reacted 10 years ago, nearly all (if not all) of those will go into three categories:
1) That never actually came up in the series;
2) That was answered (even if you didn’t like the answer!);
3) Huh, I’d forgotten that, as it was from 6-7 seasons / books ago: I guess that it was just a throwaway line of the sort that you get in real life….
I am betting on one thing: much as “Severus Snape had been in love with Harry’s mother” and “Harry’s scar is a Horcrux” were the answers to many the “outstanding questions” prior to the end of that series, there is going to be one explanation concerning the White Walkers that explains a whole bunch of questions and fires more than one gun. (Or maybe it is Chekov’s Gattling Gun.)
Mr Derp,
1. Not for me. I expected it to occur and thought it fit into the story. I really struggled with the pacing and the acting performances. I saw all the scenes mentioned and thought, geez Emilia. Look at the acting btw the other couples including Jon & Yygritte, GW & Missy etc.
2.A lot happened in Season 7 – a lot of the entire season felt rushed. Some feeling that this love story was rushed is consistent with how many felt about the season.
3.As a GOT romance, it also moved quickly as they met so late. This series has a love story running from Season 2 that is not consummated yet. Grey W and Missy were together for a while before they banged. Sam and Gilly had some time as well. We will get more Sansa and Tyrion before that relationship is clear.
4.The “no first kiss, no exploration, no caress” sex scene was noticeable for me. What was it – knock on door, then naked in bed? It was filmed like a college dorm after party booty call.
Costello,
Really?
Do you think Jon and Daenerys have spent more time together than Jaime and Cersei and Jaime and Brienne? Grey Worm and Missandei? Sam and Gilly?
Mango,
While I agree that pacing was an issue at times in season 7, not all love stories are created equal. Some take a long time to take shape, and some don’t. I’m not entirely sure what you were expecting here. It sounds like you’re more disappointed with the acting rather than how it unfolded, which is all rather subjective.
Mr Derp,
What people seems to forget that their love story began at the end of episode 6. In episode 7 they were already in kings landing. Lot could have happen off screen that we didn’t know about. They could have talked about their past. Losing love ones etc which can create a strong bond.
That we didn’t saw it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. And we don’t know what they will show us in season 8. And we know there a time jump again which their love could have grown.
It reminded me of lost with the relation of sawyer juliet. It just happen in one episode. But there was a time jump of 3 years. At first it felt strange and forced but at the end of that season fans felt they were the second best couple of the whole show.
If we are convinced that tyrion and Shae are a couple in just 3 episodes. Or 4 if you count 2×01.why not believe this couple with 5 episodes.
Sweet! It might actually be worth waking up early to catch the episodes if they’re this long. I’ll just watch the episode then head straight to work.
I doubt that. But even if it was the case, that’s hardly an accurate measure of how realistically their romance progressed.
Melisandre and Davos have spent a ton of time on screen together but it they suddenly fell madly in love over the course of a few episodes in Season 8, I don’t think anybody would dare claim it worked because of the amount of screen time they’d shared.
Jon and Dany are two of the main characters remaining in this show and leaders of rival factions; of course they were going to spend a fair amount of screen time together. But the amount of which that was dedicated to establishing a personal connection rather than talking fealty and war was minimal.
Ten Bears,
LOL!!!
It’s really brief, which is what I appreciate the most about this particular moment. Subtle, not smothered on with a trowel (unlike other things in S7).
Wimsey,
WIMSEY!!!
So wonderful to see you!
Have you perchance kidnapped Acme? She’s also been missing for a while.
Kevin1989,
You can’t expect a viewer to be convinced of a relationship based on what might have happened off-screen.
We weren’t expected to believe Tyrion and Shae were falling for each other or developing a relationship based on what happened off-screen.
Their scenes in the early episodes of Season 2 are all about establishing that they have a real connection.
It’s not until Episode 8 that Tyrion declares his love for Shae. And Episode 10 when she proves her love for him.
Anyway, they were to be together and now they are…
Jon’s role was always to take the dragon queen to her true purpose. The AOTD.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Many shows are doing that off-screen and it never bother the fans. It’s all how it is shown to screen, you could just have one scene where one character looks a certain way to another and the next episode skips time and they are together. I think that scene happened at the end of episode 6 where those 2 shared a moment.
Yes it could have handled better, true. But for me it was done good enough. We saw the beginning of their relationship. And for me only the end scene was their moment of love. The beginning started and the season end there. I don’t care they are going to skip ahead with them being the happy couple because we are at the last season. I don’t need to see a big amount of screentime dedicated to the building of there relationship. We skip a couple of months and every person could think of what happens when two people just are in love. Talking, sharing a bed, romantic etc
And do we really know the end game of GoT is being them happy ever after. As I see multiple things could happen:
1. The love is real and they want (and maybe are starting a family). If one dies the other is devastated if not they are happy ever after.
2. Their love is more a way to cope with their lonelyness, they both want to love and they got one to love. I can see that there’s a chance that this is where it’s headed and that in the end their true love were drogo and Ygritte.
3. The divorce route, there was love, something will happen and it turn to hate.
I think we need to wait till season 8 aired to see where it’s headed and if the set-up was good for where they are headed.
kevin1989,
Ps. There are many shows where a strong relationship is being made by just one or 2 episodes or even less when they just skip to them being together.
Leftovers did the main relationship in just 2 episodes. One episode they met. Share a moment. I have to say that moment had bigger impact than Jon and dany but it worked. And an episode later where they meet again. After that we skipped if I remember right 2 years. And they are a couple which we are routing for.
And don’t forget lord of the rings. The moment eowen and faramir looked at each other and both had a certain look in their eyes you knew they were going to be a great couple.
Yes I wished we had a scene where they talked about for instance Ned and Robb. I think if Jon convinced dany that Ned was a good guy (she was glad he died because he helped Robert) that coild have been a huge moment.
Mango,
“4.The “no first kiss, no exploration, no caress” sex scene was noticeable for me. What was it – knock on door, then naked in bed? It was filmed like a college dorm after party booty call.”
_______
That’s a fairly apt comparison.
Ygritte and Jon had a love scene. Grey Worm and Missandei had a love scene. Jon and Dany had a sex scene. When nobody says a word, it’s just sexual intercourse; yielding to mutual passion. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. 😁
Ten Bears,
It’s funny – that’s not my impression.
Of course, we all knew, they will come together.
But when they met the first time (title, title, title… King uf tha north…) I though *switch*, they were connected at just that moment, but there were too many things to do, digging dragonglas to fight wights or conquer a continent and deposit a mad queen for example – no time for lovestories! But…
And finally: there is no time to loose. It’s war, dude!
Ten Bears,
Nothing wrong with that!
A few of us are holed up in a bunker hiding from spoilers. I’m on an extended beer run….
There haven’t been many tender romantic moments on the show. I think Greyworm and Missandei is the only one.
Ygritte was the aggressor with Jon and she’s kind of a tough, brusque, Wildling girl who doesn’t use pretty words. Jon just looked terrified, plus he’s not much of a talker.
Dany and Drogo looked like a power play more than romance. There are no extended, detailed love scenes… except GW and Missy.
Jon and Dany seemed like the others in that it conveyed information minus the sizzle. The scene was enough to let us know that if Dany is pregnant, it’s Jon’s baby. We know that they’re powerfully drawn to each other, so much so that they need not speak. And, you know, it kind of implies there will be trouble – and by the way, audience, don’t bother thinking about romance ’cause they’re Aunt and Nephew. …Which is probably why they cut the scene with Rhaegar and Lyanna saying their vows.
The fact that Jon is a LEGITIMATE son of Rhaegar, which makes him heir. The fact that being Rhaegar’s son makes him Dany’s nephew. Both these facts will put him in conflict with Dany, the woman he’s sleeping with.
I wonder exactly how Dany will react to her nephew, lover and Heir/rival. Maybe she’ll take off on Drogon to process that bombshell.
My first reaction to this is great although I must admit to being a little shocked that episode 4 is going to be super long. We know from articles on this site that episode 3 will feature some sort of huge battle and most people are expecting similar in episode 5. The finale makes sense to be longer as they wrap up the arcs for those who survive so episode 4 stands out. Could we instead have the embers of the battle from episode 3 and the beginnings of the one from episode 5 with some slower paced drama in between?
Yeah they did a wrap up party in Belfast with lots of old cast members including Sean Bean and Mark Addy. I think a famous American chat show lead hosted it, possibly Jay Leno. Although it will only be available on the complete box set blu-ray so those of us who already own S1-S7 wont get to see it unless we fork out yet again.
Wimsey,
Fortunately, the coast has been pretty clear of spoilers thus far, and it’s been nice not feeling a need to be so careful this season. Of course, this is surprising, and I anticipate the situation on the spoiler front may change over the course of the next couple of months…
I agree and find it hugely refreshing that we will go into this season with next to no spoilers. It’s probably the least I have known since S1 and stark contrast to S7 where all major plot twists leaked. Given how little we know I actually hope we only get one trailer now.
The good thing is any leaks at this stage won’t gain much traction at least until the trailer drops so I think we are safe for a few more weeks.
Sorry but in my mind S5 is the weakest by some way. Probably S7 then S1/S2 next. Season 3,4 and 6 are the pinnacle.
That article didn’t age to well, 49 minutes…