The wait for the eighth and final season of Game of Thrones continues to drag on, but at least we have a couple of interviews to brighten your day! Kit Harington tries to discuss next season without giving anything away and reveals his keepsake from the show, while Sophie Turner takes a much more candid approach – which may or may not make us happy.
Speaking with Men’s Journal, Kit Harington is unsurprisingly tight-lipped about Thrones’ final season. “This is going to be so boring, but it’s a minefield to say anything. Even in the past when I’ve said something it gets taken the wrong way, or that I revealed something. Even if I’ll say that it’s going to be an exciting season, it’ll get put out in the wrong way. I don’t know how I’m going to deal with this when I actually have to promote the thing, but I don’t want anything to get taken wrongly.” I think poor Kit is still traumatized from having to lie for a year after season five.
There is one tidbit Harington is willing to share, however – what he took from the set as a memento. No, not Longclaw (which he has long said he wanted to keep), but part of Jon’s armor. “I actually didn’t take anything too crazy. I kept some of the armor that I use for Jon Snow’s outfit, like the wrist protectors I’ll wear in his costume. I thought those were pretty cool.” I suppose, but Longclaw would have been cooler. Showrunners, give this man his sword!
Check out the rest for Harington’s thoughts on Game of Thrones‘ big Emmy win and what it’s like filming on location.
Harington’s onscreen sibling (er, cousin) is a bit more open than he is about the series finale. In an interview with IGN, Sophie Turner confesses that fan reaction to the ending could be a mixed bag. “As an actor it was really satisfying – I think for everyone, everyone’s storylines – to be able to act out the way that it all ends..Who knows if it will be satisfying for the fans. I think a lot of fans will be disappointed and a lot of fans will be over the moon.” Let’s hope we land in the second category.
Turner adds, “I think it will be really interesting to see people’s reactions, but for me reading the script it was just like heartbreaking to read at the very final page of the script it just says, ‘End of Game of Thrones’. That was really emotional.” As it will be for us all, I’m sure – disappointing or not.
She also reveals what’s in store for Sansa in season eight, saying, “She kind of takes ownership over who she is and what she stands for. Over the course of the series she’s been completely unaware of what she wants, where she wants to be, who she really is, and at the end of this season, I feel she is the most self-assured character in the show.” Sounds to me like Sansa makes it out alive, but I suppose we won’t know for sure until the final credits roll…
You can read more about Turner’s feelings on saying goodbye to Game of Thrones and what the future holds for her here.
So…… if Kit can get Longclaw can Maisie get Arya’s Needle?
(immediate deviation into ASNAWP thread) 😛
I think we should have learned something about Sophie’s quotes by now. Overall they never seem to line up with what we eventually see on screen. 🙂
An excerpt from the upcoming first volume of Fire and Blood, for those interested:
http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2018/09/27/a-fire-blood-excerpt-just-for-you/
My prediction: Winterfell will fall, then so will King’s Landing, a full evacuation of Westeros survivors to Essos & the beginnings of the better world Dany set in motion. Even if the Night King falls (I think they’ll lose to him), there’s not enough food stores to last out even a short winter. What little resources remain will likely be abandoned in when everyone is running for their lives. It would also be “coming full circle” moment for Westeros to going back to being uninhabited like it was before the First Men & then the Andals moved in. No predictions on who of the main character makes it out alive, anyone could die at this point. Maybe Tyrion survives, I think he’s the only one I feel confident might make it all the way.
Queue the meme of Sansa saying “You’re spoiling everything!”
And let the over analyzing of her words begin!
I feel very confident Sam will live, so he can write the history of A Song of Ice and Fire. That’s the only character I am 100% sure will live, IMO.
It wasn’t uninhabited, it was inhabited by a different, non-human race. 😉
Christina Sherwood,
I mentioned a couple years ago that everyone could evacuate to essos and got roasted a ton on one of the forums lol I think it’s possible
Anything is possible at this point, but I can’t imagine that an ending where everyone simply packs their bags and leaves Westeros for Essos would satisfy anyone.
Some people will like the end, some won’t, and the vast majority will like some bits and not others. There, I’ve revealed everything. 🤪
Shane snow,
One main problem with that is if they don’t defeat the NK their entire world will suffer. The first Long Night spread beyond Westeros and covered everywhere causing famines and the other problems associated with a generation long dark winter. So even if the NK for some reason would never be able to actually step on a ship (or fly) to other continents it still wouldn’t be sunshine and roses in Essos.
Clob,
I knew someone was going to nitpick that 😆
Yes I know it was inhabited by The Children & Giants etc., I meant inhabited by the shitty humans who wreck everything 😉
Shane snow,
Well with the way things are looking, I can’t see it ending any other way. Mostly because this isn’t a world of happily ever after BS. The reality is even if they win they can’t survive there anymore because they destroyed most all the resources being at war for the entire series. The heros might triumph (survive) but they won’t truly win.
Mr Derp,
Yes of course Sam survives. I was more thinking main characters, Sam is what I would consider a support character, very important support but still not a main.
Nooooooooooooooo, you didn’t use spoiler tags!!! You’ve ruined everything!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
The problem is that with the statements of “”some will love it, some will hate it” is that we don’t know in what context we need to put this, I can see a lot of different kind of situations where the fans will be split in 2:
1. Survivors: If it’s a statement of survivors we can expect that Cercei will win and Dany/Jon etc will die. or even all will die.
2. good/evil: If at the end of season 8, the show depicts characters different then the end of season 7. Cercei will become the hero to defeat the NK, Dany or Jon a big obstacle. Or maybe Cercei stay evil but the history books remember the events differently.
3. The amount of fantasy: What if all this hate/love-reaction difference will be because the final and the plot of the show will be something highly magical. This will be something people will hate or love. Remember GoT was the show that even people who didn’t love fantasy could watch. Those people will hate the ending of the show will contain too much magic.
4. A theory of mine that popped in my head, what if Dany (I choose her because of interviews of her) will become a white walker (maybe at the end of episode 3), this will be something people will love (plottwist) or hate (don’t touch our hero). It also make sense that Emilia hope we will like Dany at the end of the show (or something like that), and it made sense that she said that she finished Dany’s last scene (there were speculation if she meant the last scene filmed or last scene of the final) but that she’s not finishing shooting. What if she comes back as a white walker. (that way we can have even a version of Nissa Nissa). The NK could convert babies, so why not a full grown woman.
5. Maybe something political. Look at the last couple of years how politics influence television. Having Jon on the Iron throne and not Dany at the end, can be seen as “Man are better then woman” “misogynistic” etc. Maybe it’s all about that and not that people will hate the story perse.
6. ….
I think we can put him in the main category. He has his own chapters in the books, he even got his own storyline in season 3,6,7. He is a character that’s tied in with many other main characters. Jon, Dany (burning family of sam and Jorah), Bran. And even in the books Arya. He is even the one that is tied in with the story. Dragonglass/ Jon’s parenting etc. He is more important than we think.
And don’t forget: He’s a wizard.
As long as the writing is good and we get a coherent ending that makes sense with the rules and guidelines Martin has brought forth, i’ll be fine. I’m not looking for this show to have a masterful ending that becomes critically acclaimed. I want an ending that makes sense.
“Stop it! You’re ruining everything!!!”
“You’re a liar! I hate you!”
*slap fight*
😂
Poor Kit, he sounds paranoid about saying anything at all, lol!
Wrist guards? Seriously?!?
Even Rose Leslie got Ygritte’s bow! Do we need to start an internet movement to get the miserly powers that be at HBO to give Longclaw to Kit? And while we’re at it, Maisie should have Needle as a souvenir! Needle is even more iconic of her character than Longclaw is of Jon Snow. I might not be a fan of too much ASNAWPing but Needle is Arya, Arya is Needle, and Maisie Williams has done such an amazing job portraying the character that she deserves Needle as a souvenir! (There, now I’ve ASNAWP derailed the thread, hahaha!)
I usually take all Sophie’s interviews with a huge grain of salt – often she seems to be either trolling the fandom or not understanding her character/the story – but on this one, I think Sophie has it spot on. There are so many superfans and fanboys/girls of each and every one of the principal characters, and many side characters as well, that it’s impossible to satisfy everybody’s head-canon.
Also, aside from any particular characters, there are fans who want a grimdark ending and anything less will be “too Disney”, some want a far happier ending that it’s gonna be, so will be unhappy. And hardcore bookfans will hate the ending, whatever it is, “because George would’ve never…” (That tedious debate will never end until GRRM publishes the final books… if he ever does.)
I’d like the ending to be grounded on everything that’s gone on before, I’d like a final twist or two that are grounded on everything that’s gone on before (so nothing completely out of left field, no deux ex machinas etc.) I’m 99.9% sure my favourite character (Jaime) is going to die, also preparing myself for other favourites to die… I’m pretty neutral on the raging fanwars re. Jon/Dany, Sansa/Arya and what have you, so I expect to be pretty satisfied by the ending if it’s done well and grows out of all the previois seasons.
Then, maybe in twenty year’s time, I’ll read GRRM’s ending, which will be far more complex, even interesting, and end pretty much the same way as the show – GRRM has told D&D the ending he has in mind. Or at least had, his “gardening” style of writing might take him somewhere else.
(I dislike this metaphor of GRRM’s about writing as gardening – the man is obviously not a literal gardener. Unless you have a solid plan, your garden ends up as a mess, incoherent and full of weeds. Even the desired plants won’t grow well if you haven’t properly planned about soil, sun/shade etc. Sorry about the mini-rant by someone who actually small-time gardens as a hobby.)
I’m not dead yet! I’m getting better!
Strange I always had a feeling Sohpie understands Sansa (at least if you read the books) and D&D don’t. They always made her like the second character in the storyline. Joffrey first, LF first, Ramsay first, etc. And now in season 7 they try very hard to change that, but it was already too late. Not Sophies fault in my book.
As for the plot, your right, some find it too dark, some too light. But I’m curious which side they have chosen.
And that George will never do statements of book readers I really despise. Just like with Stannis burning Shireen, the backlash of that. I hope really that that will happen in the books too, even if it’s only too show those purist that they were wrong all those years.
I always say: Writing is like sex. You work hard the whole time, with some ups and downs. And you always hope it will end in a huge climax.
Sorry couldn’t resist. But I think it’s a much better metaphore.
talvikorppi,
The gardener reference was a wonderful way to address his style as a writer, in my opinion.
A gardener, in Martin’s words is someone who plants a seed and lets the plants blossom on their own, in whatever direction best serves the garden. And when you think of how gargantuan the world of ASoIAF has become since the first novel, I think the comparison is very apt. Martin has sewed hundreds of seeds since A Game of Thrones and after all the tireless world building and organic development, the world has become a monster in its own right. That’s why Martin has an extremely hard job to do and the hugeness of his world may even lead to his undoing (depending on how Martin approaches these last remaining novels with the amount of content left).
Edward,
George is very good at planting and he loves doing it. He just doesn’t know when or how to harvest…
kevin1989,
Uuugh, need mind bleach now. Sorry for being a bit ageist, sizeist etc. but the image of GRRM having grunting sex… no, just no. Let him potter around in his garden, please!
Hey, I like your idea of Sophie understanding the character Sansa better than D&D… I don’t know if Sophie has read the books, which would influence her understanding, or only the show scripts.
Hey, don’t worry about hardcore bookfans. They’re a sect of their own – over at another internet place they merrily continue their in-depth analysis of every single word GRRM ever wrote and stick fingers in ears and go lalalala can’t hear you about the show.
Over there, R+L=J, Jon Snow’s parentage, a long-standing fan theory confirmed by the show, is just another fan theory until GRRM confirms it. So some (minority) can continue to indulge their pet theories. N+A=J, N+W=J, A+A= J&D, A+L= J&M, and so on and so forth, any alphabet soup you can imagine, because they pretend Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Snow has not been confirmed. Living in an alternative reality. That said, most bookpurists sign up to R+L=J. It’s a fan theory that’s been around ever since the first book, 1996 or something. (I only twigged to it half-way through book 3 when bingeing on all the books after S3 of the show.)
Clob,
Hmmm I disagree with that. I actually think GRRM’s issue lies in him planting too many seeds knowing he won’t have the time or place to harvest it all. He knows how to harvest well, but he needs to stop letting his ambition get in the way of his productivity.
You don’t want to go in the cart???
Edward,
This just goes to my point of actual gardening and GRRM’s more metaphorical idea.
Plant all the seeds you want and watch them grow or wither, but you cannot have a thriving garden – or a coherent book series – without a plan. Otherwise you get bogged down with weeds (pretty in themselves, even interesting or useful) and the original idea for the garden – book series – just won’t emerge.
Or, you could do what GRRM seems to be doing. If the original garden plot becomes too weedy, just move on to a new plot and garden there. This is GRRM writing more and more fake histories. Even getting involved with HBO prequels etc.
Hey, I admire GRRM for his imagination and skill as a wordsmith, but he’s not some god above criticism. I actually feel bad for him, I don’t think he ever wanted to be in this situation, and he’s not handling it well.
I feel fine! I think I’ll go for a walk…
I wouldn’t be so sure if I were you…
Edward,
Well I’m going to feel that way until he can actually start working toward an ending and producing the books in which that is done. Even with sample chapters it appears he’s still expanding as always. Yeah, there’s a tinge of bitterness about it.
talvikorppi,
Even if grrm would say so in an interview they would deny it. Yes things will be differently and probably majorly different. But Jon’s parents, coming down Wall (maybe means how not), and the ending will be the same.
About grrm: isn’t a major problem with him that he always put characters first story second. I heard many times he stayed that he had difficulty going into the right direction because his characters wouldn’t move in that way. That’s what the books make so great but I can understand that if the plot needs a character to do something that’s not in the nature of such a character, you have a big problem. The show takes the route of the plot and made the character do something that’s not in their nature. But grrm would choose the character way.
For instance: LF season 7. The show need to get rid of that character because of plot reasons for the last season. They chose plot first character second and have the characters do things that was out of their nature. LF was stupid. Sansa was stupid and only understand in the last second etc. All for the plot and wtf moment. Grrm would choose the character way means that it will take a lot of time and maybe the characters won’t move into the direction of LF demise but instead his victory.
talvikorppi,
I get what you’re saying. The gardener reference isn’t necessarily the best position to be in as a high fantasy writer who has spawned such a huge universe. But, as an example to differentiate his writing from D&D (them being “architects”), I find it very apt.
He’s a veteran gardener who never truly grasped some of the fundamentals of gardening, if we take his example to the extreme.
Stanley Kubrick famously said, when asked whether he was disappointed that many of his movies were “divisive and controversial” with many audiences and whether he would want his movies to be more “popular” that “Regardless of whatever you do, in any walk of life, whatever you do will always be judged in the same way: Some people will love it, some people will like it, some people will be indifferent, some will dislike it and some will hate it, it’s all a matter of the percentages”
Sorry to go O/T but the IGN interview with Sophie had some links that lead to other links, and I found this nice HuffPost interview with Nikolaj Coster-Waldau. It’s about a month old but I don’t think it was covered here on WotW.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/nikolaj-coster-waldau-jaime-lannister_us_5b7edaf2e4b0cd327dfabaad?guccounter=1
There were two bits that I found interesting. Apologies for lengthy quotes.
So NCW is just like all the other millions of Jaime fans screaming at the screen to get Jaime on his book arc already, hahaha!
I can understand why the showrunners gave some of Cersei’s worse instincts or lines to Jaime – book!Cersei is soo bad it’s comical, so the show had to make her “better”, more sane and intelligent for the sake of the show. The downside of it is that Jaime has constantly been painted worse on the show. Book readers (such as NCW) really have been screaming at the screen. But, boy, was it satisfying seeing Jaime riding north, alone, on a dark horse (if you look, Jaime has always ridden a white horse before.)
OK, the other interesting thing in that interview is this:
OK, I don’t think Sam will wield “Heartsbane”, maybe he’ll give the uncommonly long sword to a tall man who can wield it effectively. Say, someone like Sandor? But NCW’s idea of the Valyrian steel squad… Hey, did he just spoil Jaime surviving to be part of it, hahaha!
There’s also a bit about Brienne…
Jaime and Brienne are soo gonna get it on, hahaha!
Anyway, go read the whole article. Nik is such a good, serious and funny guy.
I though it would be fun to look at what the chances are the main characters will survive. Looking at the storylines we had with those characters and if those storylines will be important for the endgame.
Arya: for me the braavos storyline need to have an importance in the endgame. If Arya dies the only way I see this being important if it helps defeat the nk or cercei. But that even if that happens she could survive. But if she survive she could wear some face for the rest of her life. For instance cercei, dany, Jon. Chance of dying: les of 20%
Bran: His 3ER storyline needs to be important for the endgame. It helped with the Jon storyline but I except that it will help in the defeat of the nk. If he dies it will be when they are trying to defeat the nk. And we can except his ability can be very helpful when the new king queen will be on the iron throne. Chances of dying: 40%
Sansa: her storyline could be seen as 2 parts. The first is her gaining the ability to rule. And she is changing from a selfish person to a person who will think about other people. If she dies it will be because she will sacrafice herself. Chances of dying: 50%
Jon: his parentage storyline and leadership storyline needs to be important. The only way he will die if 1. Nobody will sit on the iron throne in the end and his leadership storyline is only important because the endgame is defeating the nk not who will sit on the throne. Or 2. Somebody will take on his face. Arya maybe? Chance of dying: 50%
Dany: I think her being the queen in the end will be very unlikely because of the Jon reveal at the end of season 8. Will they have an happy ending or will she get evil or maybe dying in childbirth. I think she will be the one who will bite the dust almost certainly. Chances of dying: 90%
Tyrion: I think his storyline can be seen as the hand of the king or queen. I think the chance of his survival will be high. Chances of dying: 10%
Cercei: she’s the human villain of the story. The only way I see her survive is if season 8 will turn her into some sort of a hero. But I find this very unlikely. Chances of dying: 99%
Jaime: for me his storyline can seen as a redemption arc. I think we can expect him dying and thereby saving a lot of people. But maybe he will live and he has to live his life with some horrible memory. Killing the love of his life for instance. Chances of dying: 90%
Theon: redemption arc. I think he will die but first save his sister. Chances of dying: 90%
Sam: he’s the one that hold many storylines together. But also a coward to hero storyline. Will he die fighting or is he the one that will be writing the history books. Chances of dying: 10%
Did I forget a main character?
talvikorppi,
“I don’t think Sam will wield “Heartsbane”, maybe he’ll give the uncommonly long sword to a tall man who can wield it effectively. Say, someone like Sandor? But NCW’s idea of the Valyrian steel squad…”
———–
It must be infectious. Sounds like you’ve gotten the ASNAWP bug. You’re excited about an Avengers-type VS Steel Squad featuring Arya and Sandor? Welcome aboard!
Kevin1989,
Yes. You forgot Sandor Ahai.
To save you the trouble: Chance of dying = 85%
Chance of dying overcoming his fear of fire to save someone else: 80%
Chance of dying by being pecked to death by flock of wight chickens: 5%
Boy, the actors are really doubling down on this whole “divisive ending” thing in interviews.
Dying words:
Sandor: “Goddamn, wight cluckers!”
Tormund: “Fuckers?”
Sandor: “Cluckers!”
Tormund: “Oh..”
Edward,
Very nicely put. You make a good point.
Though… I don’t know the Engish word… In my language, literally translated, it’s “landscape achitect”, but it means a gardener that sees the bigger picture, doesn’t diddy away with individual plants in his individual diddy garden but designs bigger things. So, architects and gardeners aren’t all that different, two sides of a coin, really.
Anyway, let’s leave it at that. This site is about the HBO show, and the past couple of seasons have had their problems that have nothing to do with the books.
Whatever their faults, book or show, I’ll still always love them. D&D (and later GRRM) have to seriously fuck up S8 for it not to be one of the best things ever.
Ten Bears,
the fuck you’re whinging about? Big man, big sword that some fucker gave some fucking name to isn’t ASNAWP adulation. A woman can appreciate Sandor without buying into the ASNASWP kool-aid. 😀
Isn’t anybody excited about the NCW interview I linked to?
Kevin1989,
Sorry, Kev, I didn’t read your wall of text. I might have, if there were some paragraph breaks in it.
Like this. An empty line between paragraphs/points.
No, because there was an article here dedicated to it on August 30. 🙂
In my dark hours, I visualize all the other characters dying to save Sansa. NOOOOOO!
Yeah, my pessimistic nature just registers that as the default ending, with pure desperate hope holding out that it won’t be. 😜 Maybe the Jonas bros can do a cameo too just for good measure to put the nail in the coffin. 😂
That’s uncharacteristic of her? ;p xD
Well, even the cleverest people are bound to slip up eventually…
I’m realizing that I don’t really think in terms of “main” and “supporting” characters…in each location/group (which have been shifting and converging over time) there are obviously the *most* central people, but I tend to give almost everybody who’s not a minor role equal-ish consideration. In lots of cases I’m the biggest fan of secondary or even tertiary characters; here I have too many faves, and a number of them are “main” or POV charries. o.O
That I want to see.
Sorry normally I do that. I forgot.
What did Sophie get?
A dress, her needle??
In my hopeful hours, I visualize Sansa dying to save other characters.
A Jonas brother.
Sean C.,
Oooo thank you for that! I remember reading about Alysanne’s trip to the wall in AWOIADF, but this passage goes into a bit more detail. And I don’t think it was a coincidence that GRRM chose this passage in particular especially as the next season will have Dany heading to Winterfell. It’s also quite telling about Silverwing’s reaction to the Wall and what lies beyond it.
Mr Derp,
Call me Mr. Cynical. I wonder which if any of the following Sophie will wish she got as a souvenir/reminder of her time on GoT:
1. Sansa’s sleek Cat 2.0 “Shall we go?” dress from S4e8(?);
2. Sansa’s cloak with hoodie from S7e7;
3. Sansa’s embroidery needle from S1e1;
4. The doll Ned gave Sansa in S1e3 (which Sansa was clutching when Sandor showed up at her room during the Battle of the Blackwater and offered to take her home);
5. Sansa’s S5 white wedding dress that Bran perved over in S7 (“You were so beautiful”);
6. Lady [I think she already adopted that dog];
7. Her redhead wig(s);
8. Sansa’s costume with wolf emblems (I think) from S6e9 Battle of the Bastards;
9. A Jonas brother.
10. Something else: [______].
P.S. Character photos, figurines, tattoos, and Royal Mail stamps don’t count. I assume every actress and actor will have them as mementos.
P.P.S. For the child actors especially, I think the cast members will savor the past eight years for the rest of their lives no matter what they achieve later in their careers. They’ll all certainly want a significant artifact. I’m sure Rose Leslie will treasure Ygritte’s bow for the rest of her life, and so will her children and her “children’s children” (as Jorah said of Longclaw when relinquishing it to Jon in S7e6).
What say you? What do you think Future Sophie would choose?
Great observation! I’ve also wondered (for many years, at this point) what Bran saw:
She’ll wish that she took a face from the Hall of Faces so she can have a different facial expression for once.
Lol, j/k. I’m not in the mood to deal with over sensitive Sansa fans right now, so I digress.
I’ll just say that future Sophie will wish that she traded in the Jonas brother for someone else, but only time will tell 🙂
My apologies if this is a silly question, but what does “ASNAWP” mean?
Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess
Never mind
Thank you.
Clob,
Every single thread, without fail, has an ASNAWP thread derailment. And now, every single thread, without fail, has someone ask what it means. I feel like the acronym should be posted up somewhere by now for all to see.
And, by the way, I’m all for all of the ASNAWP thread derailments.
I think the Wall was actually built to protect the White Walkers from ASNAWP thread derailment.
We’re all truly fucked
GoT has millions of viewers. Of course not everyone will like the finale lol.
Give Kit his sword!
I tried searching the site for an explanation before asking, but I was not able to find anything. I even checked the FAQ.
Lmao…!
I’ve suggested it to be added to the site’s Lexicon a few times… So far it hasn’t happened. 😛
What the hell does “Jonas brother(s)” mean?
*sorry*
?
cos alpha,
It’s literal
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/XKiqOtDSy7A/maxresdefault.jpg
Oh, thank You, Clob!
I read about it in a link, I think, but I didn’t bring it together, because I’m not really fit (and not interested enough) with stars/actors and engagements and all these things, not really cinephil – all these names and special insider jokes…
But meanwhile I know what ASNAWP means :o)
Arya first!
They don’t want to go in the cart either!
Jaehaerys,
There are good reasons why threads get derailed to discussions about Arya – aside from the phenomenal performance by young Maisie Williams.
For me, Arya has been the “lens” through which I’ve viewed events. And to borrow a Jane Austen term, Arya has an infallible moral compsss. She does not see other people as inferior or expendable based on class differences. “Smallfolk” or “commoners” are as human and deserving of justice as anyone else. Whether it was Mycah, Jorey, Lommy or Syrio, she didn’t simply gloss over their deaths like other characters seemed to. She did not forget about them.
If it’s true that “there is no justice in this world unless we make it”, she is the only one who has consistently done so, even when it would’ve been more expedient to let injustice slide.
Her reactions to flawed rationalizations and excuses mirror those of anyone who has a natural instinct for right and wrong. She even left her own father flummoxed when he tried to insist that Sansa must take Joffrey’s side “even when he is wrong.” Arya replied: “But…how can you let her marry someone like that?” Her reaction to Sansa’s insistence that she didn’t want someone brave and gentle, she wanted Joffrey, was priceless: “Seven Hells!”. But it also said a lot about her ability to identify character flaws her sister was blinded to and her father had seemed all too willing to overlook.
She refused to accept Jaqen 2.0’s reasoning that death doesn’t only come for the wicked when she aborted the hit on Lady Crane – placing herself in peril. She stepped in front of Sandor and implored him not to kill the pork merchant when he tried to justify it with “Dead rats don’t squeak.” She called out Sandor as “the worst sh*t in the Seven Kingdoms” when he beat and robbed Sally’s father, rejecting the excuse that “they’ll both be dead come winter” and “dead men don’t need silver.”
I couldn’t help but compare her stance with another character *cough* who didn’t seem overly disturbed when Dontos was killed to ensure his silence; when whacko Aunt Lysa was murdered; when Tyrion was framed for a murder he didn’t commit; or when the “North Remembers” old lady was flayed and died.
So yes, it’s fun to watch Arya run around as a super hero-type ninja assassin and warrior princess and kill bad guys. But it’s that “infallible moral compass” and empathy for innocents that make her a compelling character.
In any event….
ASNAWP!!! 👸🏻
“Bring out your dead! Bring out your dead!”
Wight: “But I don’t want to go in the cart. I’m not dead yet.”
“Yes you are. Your skin’s off. I can see your skeleton.”
Wight: “It’s only a flesh wound.”
——–
(Sorry…)
Ten Bears,
Almost forgot…
Arya also used her wits and quick-thinking – and risked her own life – to save a bastard armorer’s apprentice from arrest and execution. She interceded and tried to prevent the BwoB from handing him over to Melisandre, rejecting the BwoB’s excuse that they needed gold to protect the people, and because her intuition correctly told her Melisandre’s Lord of Light “command” masked a malevolent intent: “You’re a witch! You’re going to hurt him!”
She outwitted Jaqen by parlaying an owed “death” to compel him to allow Gendry and Hot Pie to escape from the Lannister concentration camp.
In a violent world where everyone talks about their own “survival” and dismiss other people as “weak” and therefore disposable, Arya (like Jon) actually gives a sh*t about the disabled and defenseless.
It would be nice to see Sansa do something unselfish for a change. However, I don’t require her to die doing it; I’m sure you don’t, either!
Oh, I didn’t see him singing, must have missed him. Grinning
Not that I’d want to see Sansa die – though it’d be nice to see her do something unselfish.
It’s just that for a while, I had been toying with the tinfoil theory that “Nissa Nissa” was a near-anagram of “Sansa Sansa.” Just substitute an “i” for an “a.”
This is a great observation! Apparently, one of Catelyn’s “failures” in raising Arya was not getting the child to see that smallfolk were inferior; the various gradations of lords and ladies and corresponding levels of respect. A kind of “kiss up, kick down” mentality favored by the highborn. Instead, Arya associated with everyone, made friends wherever she went, and learned from them. This contrasts sharply with … well, we know the drill. If Daenerys and/or Jon can’t rule the 7Kingdoms, I’d put up Arya as a good candidate. She might even come up with some crazy idea like a “parliament.”
(Let’s not get into Aegon V, another friend of the smallfolk, as I don’t yet know his whole story and why things went to horribly wrong for him.)
I feel like I’ve definitely heard the actors say more about how many fans this season will be “disappointed” than anything lol. Interesting marketing technique there, I’m losing more hype each and every time I hear how “disappointing” it will be…
Ten Bears,
I think I agree with almost all of this, but I have to say my feelings towards her changed after the Frey massacre. It was a moment that I enjoyed watching at the time, but later, felt pretty revolted by and it has shaped my feelings for her character ever since. I used to consider her one of my favourites, but after that moment, I can’t say I do anymore. I know people defend her blanket killing of all the Frey men in stating they were all complicit in the red wedding. I’m sure most of them were, but I would argue that there were those in the room who didn’t partake in the event or merely din’t participate and would have felt badly about the plan, unable to go against the wishes of their House and Walder. In killing them all indiscriminately, Arya wasn’t being a moral harbinger of justice, she was enacting revenge on the family that partially destroyed her own, whether they were guilty or innocent. To wipe out all the men, leaving the women and children defenceless (as Cersei said of Tyrion in his killing of Tywin, leaving them defenceless, open, weak etc.), she not only killed an entire generation of men, but destroyed the lives of dozens of women and children – who were definitely innocent of their fathers’ crimes. You likened her to Jon and in many ways, she is like him, but can you imagine Jon wiping out all the men of House Frey in that manner? He only killed 4 of his executioners (unless the others were killed off-screen?) and seemed truly troubled to do so, which is a very stark (pardon the word!) comparison to the manner of Arya’s massacre and her enjoyment of it. I compare that moment as she leaves the hall to the way in which Sansa smiles to herself after setting Ramsay’s dogs on him and neither sits well with me.
I fear they used the scene in a cheap way to open the season with a bang and that it will obviously happen quite differently in the books, but I really wished they hadn’t included it, as my feelings for her changed so much afterwards and I had really enjoyed her character before.
I imagine this will be quite a controversial opinion 😬 and don’t imagine many will share it.
Walder Frey: “… you are my family, the men who helped me slaughter the Starks at the Red Wedding.”
whole lot of Freys: “yeahhh!”
they were pretty excited about fucking up their last hearing, weren’t they?
collective confession of the remains of house Douchefrey at 2:12 in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wsFMwmXC6s
they asked for it really loud. all of them, as far as i could see from the pictures.
death by chickenfire,
right after sending my answer to Che, i noticed that there’s another house having been extinguished by the use of liquids: house Reign of Castamere. look, Freys: you should have chosen a better wedding band, with better songs…
Thanks for the really thoughtful discussion! In-world, Arya’s actions would not have caused much, if any outrage: the Freys had violated basic rules of civilization by inviting thousands of people in on the pretext of a wedding, then killing them all, and prior to that, had been a boil on the arse of the Seven Kingdoms.
Today, we don’t condone revenge, particularly when done by individuals. Our justice system would have (eventually) gotten around to accusing, indicting, and trying the Freys, and each would have had his or her trial. And appeal. Et cetera. Arya would have received grief counseling.
Arya’s logic – that you couldn’t leave even one survivor – was what was driving her, and note how she discounted the women. Maybe she figured – or had figured out, after observing them – that not only were the females not responsible for the “wedding surprise”, that they were totally dominated by the men, particularly Old Walder. (You can see how I’m searching for justifications for Arya! I could be totally wrong!) But Arya had seen the massacre at first hand. Mercy was not in her.
In our world, there is never justice. Victims can never be “made whole.” The guilty, even if convicted, won’t suffer much, or enough, for what they did. Particularly if wealthy or powerful. They get to do it again and again. Arya’s revenge for the Starks at least assured that Old Walder would take no more young wives, would break no more vows, would stab no one else in the back. Nor would any of his innumerable offspring, brought up to think this was how things should work.
It was one of those scenes which is deeply satisfying, even though we generally know that it wasn’t quite right. Thanks for that reminder!
I like the way you summed up the End of House Frey so succinctly!
Che,
All of the invitees to the Arbor Gold wine tasting party were expressly identified by fWalder as “the men who helped me slaughter the Starks at the Red Wedding.” They all cheered.
As she usually does, Arya informed the accused of the charges against them before imposing punishment: butchered a woman pregnant with her baby; cut the throat of a mother of five; “slaughtered your guests after inviting them into your home.”
I thought the last one – violation of Guest Right – had been established as worse than murder, and an unforgivable, mandatory death penalty crime in the world of GoT.
I also thought one of the “many lessons” Sansa learned was that “there is no justice in this world unless we make it.” Three years after the Red Wedding, the culprits were still walking around and enjoying themselves. No one had the courage to exact justice.
P.S. I know it won’t happen. I just wish there would be a scene in the Great Hall of WF with all of the Northern lords assembled in which Lord Manderly stands up and bellows:
“I said Jon Snow avenged the Red Wedding. But I was wrong! Arya Stark avenged the Red Wedding!” 👸🏻
Che,
“I fear they used the scene in a cheap way to open the season with a bang and that it will obviously happen quite differently in the books.”
……………
That I agree with.
death by chickenfire,
I just read your reply written before mine in which I kind of said the same thing: The show explicitly made it clear that all of the Freys at the party were complicit – and proud of it.
Arya does not kill innocents. She left Walder’s child-wife unharmed.
All of those Frey f*ckers deserved what they got and in fact, got off easy – quick death by poisoning compared to the violent bloodbath of the Red Wedding and desecration of the corpses of Catelyn and Robb.
death by chickenfire,
A whole lot of Freys yes, but the point I’m making is that it may not have been every single one. Is it beyond the realm of imagination that there are any decent Freys? Or weak-minded fearful Freys who don’t wish to go up against their entire family – who maybe did nothing to stop the Red Wedding because it would be suicide if they did, but actually had nothing to do with it? Are we to accept that a key theme to Season 7 was “don’t judge me by my father’s deeds” and yet we are meant to believe every single Frey is just born bad? I don’t buy any of that.
I’m not for one moment suggesting that the majority of those Freys were innocent, but I think it would be wrong to assume each of them was guilty and deserved death, which is why I don’t like how this was done, nor do I like it that they made Arya, who had until now seemed to moral and just, be the one to do it.
I think this is a very unfair assumption to make given that the show has not in any way shown any of the Frey men going against Walder and his plan to massacre the Starks, or having any sort of misgivings about it. As others pointed out above, Arya was clear in naming those in the room as complicit in the Red Wedding, and everyone was shown to cheer. The show has been very clear in telling us that Arya does not kill innocent people.
However, I do agree that the scene and Arya’s role in it is unsettling, but not for the reasons you state. We are supposed to feel a mix of satisfaction and concern that this young girl is both capable and willing to go to such lengths to avenge the injustices against her family. And I do think she’s justified, as Ten Bears often says. The unsettling part though, is that this anger and revenge drives her, and there’s no denying the brutality of her actions. She’s also far from the only character (including good characters) who kill for justified reasons, so I don’t think holding her to account for that is fair either.
At least for me, this is what makes her such an interesting character! That she’s capable of such violence while at the same time having great capacity for compassion and loyalty is a fascinating mix. And in light of the huge trauma that she’s had to endure makes her even more empathetic to me. Again, it’s back to that mix of satisfaction and a feeling of “No, you’re going too far. Don’t succumb to the darkness!”
I’ve said before that her revenge and violence are manifestations of her pain and suffering that have been inflicted upon her in this brutal society. She’s not always making the right choices, or dealing with that pain in a healthy way, but she hasn’t had the greatest mentors/teachers either. They may have protected her, but they also nurtured her darker impulses. So is she really to blame for becoming who she’s become? In some ways yes, she has to take responsibility for her choices, but there’s also blame to be placed on this brutal society and her “mentors” along the way. Jaqen, for instance, is not a good person. He’s evil. Yes, he’s charming and mysterious and I am interested in his character, but I don’t like him at all. He’s a horrible person.
So as much as many of us like to cheer her on as a sort of vigilante hero of injustices, we do have to acknowledge the darker side of her. But that’s all a part of what adds to her complexity and layers.
Ten Bears,
See this is where I think it was just poor storytelling on the part of D&D (I honestly don’t mean to bash them; I love what they have done with the show and usually roll my eyes at D7D bashing). I fear this was a heavy-handed. ill-thought out sweep to tie up a loose end that lacked any of the nuances and character-driven moments that set the tone for the rest of the show.
Are we to believe that Arya in the entire day or so that she was with the Freys was able to work out which Frey men were and were not complicit in the Red Wedding? Perhaps a montage of detective Arya interviewing Frey men and sifting through evidence to the Winterfell theme pumped up with a beat might have cleared up exactly how she worked out which ones to kill and which ones to exonerate, but we got none of that. In what we can assume was quick succession after killing Walder, she assumes his face and then obliterates the house. Yes there is that cheap line thrown in to suggest all those present were part of it to appease the audience, but in reality, how would she have known? Do you think the cowards in House Frey, who were too scared to go against their house, didn’t partake in it (but were perhaps present) and felt horrified by what they saw, would be bold enough to own up to it? There were what, 100 men in that room? In that gathering, would the coward admit to it and stand up and criticise Walder and label his actions that day deplorable? I highly doubt it.
I imagine most of those Frey men deserved what they had coming, but my point is that with such a heavy-handed action, it is likely a few men who didn’t deserve to die did in fact die. At Arya’s hand.
It’s a shame that such a (presumably) fan-pleasing moment has backfired so badly on me. I wish they’d put in that montage.
Che,
The show would have had to give some indication of this if it was to play a part in Arya’s story, or be significant in some way, which is why I think it’s unfair to make that assumption. Perhaps there are/were innocent Frey men, but they clearly weren’t at the banquet when Arya poisoned them all.
As comparison, take Dany’s crucifixion of the slavers of Meereen. The show specifically made a point to tell us that not all of the slavers were part of crucifying the slave girls that Dany encountered on the road to the city, and this became a small subplot in how she deals with injustice.
It was actually a fortnight, not just a single day. She says something to the effect of, “It’s only been a fortnight since the last feast.”
Enharmony1625,
In a show that seems intent on making the message “do not judge me by my House or by my father’s actions” a key message to take away (especially so on season 7), I find it strange we are meant to assume that all Freys are evil and stupid. I don’t buy that. It’s too black and white. Are we to assume that no Freys have depth or a range of emotions because it makes it more convenient to wipe them out in this manner?
And as I mentioned in the post to Ten Bears that I think I must have been typing up while you were posting yours, that line that f-Walder gives is a cheap throw away line for the audience’s benefit to make Arya’s actions seem less monstrous. She could have in no way, in her short time with the Freys, figured out which of the Frey men truly deserved to die.
Enharmony1625,
I forgot that reference, thanks. So two weeks then; still not enough time to truly get to know the sons and grandsons of Frey and to work out which ones to kill and which to spare. It seems farfetched and not inkeeping with the thoroughness of the rest of the show/story to assume she was able to get to know a hundred men in that time.
Jaime pointed out to Cersei that House Frey was wiped out, so we can assume there weren’t any men left to take Walder’s place. So we can assume she killed them all.
And your point with Dany is an interesting one as that plot is an integral part in her journey to learning how to lead, how to govern, how to seek out those to control her worst impulses (as Tyrion explains). It came back to bite her. We, as the audience, are meant to see that act as a grey act, whereas it feels like with Arya, we, as the audience, are meant to see it as a positive thing.
I do feel that the killing of the Freys will come back to haunt Arya in some way. When she and Jon meet up once more, I would be surprised if it didn’t become an issue. I cannot imagine for one moment Jon agreeing with it.
Ten Bears,
P.S. I know it won’t happen. I just wish there would be a scene in the Great Hall of WF with all of the Northern lords assembled in which Lord Manderly stands up and bellows:
“I said Jon Snow avenged the Red Wedding. But I was wrong! Arya Stark avenged the Red Wedding!” 👸🏻said Jon Snow avenged the Red Wedding. But I was wrong! Arya Stark avenged the Red Wedding!”
I’d like that too, but taking credit is unlike Arya. It’s enough to know she is a warrior for justice, ensuring the punishment fits the crime even years later. As the High Septon said, “The Warrior punishes those who think themselves beyond the reach of justice” , viz Trant, Freys and Littlefinger.
Che,
That’s a good point about the message of “don’t judge me by my House or my father’s actions”, and it does seem perhaps a little at odds with how they paint House Frey on the show. For better or worse though, House Frey on the show (the men at least) have pretty much been marked as rather foolish and deplorable. I can certainly accept your feelings that this lacks nuance or subtlety.
I don’t know that I really think the show wants us to think Arya’s killing of House Frey is a positive thing. They make it pretty darned dark! I think it’s people that interpret it that way. The show made it clear that she spared the innocent lives of the women, but I do think it’s supposed to be unsettling that this 16/17 year old girl just wiped out 50+ people in one go. And I agree with you that it will probably come back to haunt her in some way. I think it will be part of her season 8 arc, which will be about her facing and coming to terms with what she’s done. I expect Jon and her will have a wonderful reunion, but once he learns about what Arya’s been up to, I expect he will feel troubled and concerned for her. In fact, I think Sansa will be the one to have her back. Wouldn’t that be an interesting twist in the siblings’ journeys, to have Jon and Arya kind of drift apart while Arya and Sansa grow much closer together?
We can’t forget though, that Jon has had impulses of revenge himself, and moments of nearly going over the edge (beating Ramsay to a pulp for instance). So while I agree that he won’t be okay with Arya wiping out House Frey, I hope he would show some level of understanding of what drove her to do it.
Enharmony1625,
“We can’t forget though, that Jon has had impulses of revenge himself, and moments of nearly going over the edge (beating Ramsay to a pulp for instance). So while I agree that he won’t be okay with Arya wiping out House Frey, I hope he would show some level of understanding of what drove her to do it.”
—————-
****
“No. The Boltons are dead.”
“What?”
“Jon Snow came down from Castle Black with a Wildling army and won the Battle of the Bastards. He’s King in the North now.”
– HPNN (Hot Pie News Network)
So. it’s perfectly alright that Jon Snow & Co. snuffed out the Boltons, he’s rewarded with a kingship, and fans are cheering.
But Arya snuffs out the main culprits of the Red Wedding with surgical precision and there’s backlash? Why is that?
Is there a tinge of Sandorian bias that “poison’s a woman’s weapon” and “men kill with steel”? She got the job done. Quickly. Efficiently.
(Would I have preferred two full episodes of just Arya outdueling 40 Freys one at a time with Needle? You bet. Either way, I don’t have to see those awful Frey caps anymore. I hated those goofy hats…)
#LastWomanStanding
Ten Bears,
“Tell me why it’s more noble to kill a dozen at dinner than a thousand on the battlefield.” – Tywin Lannister
It’s an interesting topic to be sure. And don’t get me wrong, I think her killing of the Freys was completely justified. In my opinion, Arya’s done Westeros a favour. Walder Frey won’t be spreading his disgusting evil anymore. Polliver, Rorge, MFT will no longer rape and abuse girls.
However, Jon was fighting for the North, and fighting against an immediate threat posed by the Boltons. The North would have remained divided and would not have been able to stand up against the threat of the AotD had they not gotten rid of them. In contrast, Arya’s reasons were all personal, and the Freys posed no immediate threat. But I would also argue that the Freys deserved the justice they got just as the Boltons did, and Arya used the skills at her disposal to do so.
I think the reason Jon might be concerned after learning of Arya’s Frey-icide is that he would be shocked to hear she is capable of such a thing, and that her desire for revenge has been a driving force in her life. It comes back to the whole idea of Arya’s personal journey and what it means to get driven by revenge; that you can lose yourself in it thereby losing your identity.
talvikorppi,
Thank you for the link; I hadn’t seen that one either!
As for Jaime riding north on the black horse… I’ll say it again: Jaime isn’t my very favorite character (although I do love how he’s developed, and NCW plays him brilliantly), but that is my single favorite scene of S7. I have no words for how much I love it. It bowled me over when I first saw it, and it continues to bowl me over.
Like Theon?
Sorry, I couldn’t help myself.
/sprints away with full bottle of Dornish red in hand
Che:
I think this is definitely one of those instances where D&D could have taken a few more minutes’ screentime to show how long a character has been in a given place, or for that matter, where a character has been. It seems to me that Arya was at the Twins for far longer than just a “day or so”; after all, we did see her taking the time to impersonate a pretty serving girl (although it does unnerve me that we never know whose face she was wearing) at the banquet attended by Jaime and Bronn. Which brings me to my real point: Although it may seem, at first viewing, that Arya’s killing of the male Freys was nothing more than a wholesale slaughter committed by a grieving, vengeful young woman barely past puberty and driven by both blind rage and hormones, the fact that she didn’t kill Jaime tempers that—at least for me it does. Jaime is, after all, a Lannister—and the only “legitimate” male Lannister left, given Tyrion’s current status. The Lannisters killed her father, seized the throne, and plotted to murder her mother and brother. And yet, Jaime was not in Arya’s sights, even though Cersei is and, for a brief moment, Tywin was. Why not? Imo, Arya takes Jaime at face value (pardon the cliché), as she does everyone: She does not see him as “a Lannister,” but simply as “Jaime.” And as far as she knows, “Jaime” had nothing to do with the execution of Ned, or the wholesale slaughter of Catelyn, Robb, Talisa, and the Stark party at the Twins. Furthermore, Arya must know, as virtually everyone does, that Jaime is Cersei’s lover and she could easily, deeply wound Cersei by killing him. But she doesn’t. The Freys’ name alone is not what makes them guilty in her mind, and neither is their maleness. In short, I agree with other commenters who have opined that first, she ascertained who was truly guilty before carrying out her revenge. There were no innocents in that hall.
Hi Wolfish! Good to see you. That explanation was terrific. And everything you said is proven in two lines that most people barely notice or forget about: fWalder Mentions that he is giving his second feast in a fortnight (14 days). Thats more than enough time for someone as smart as Arya as Walder to figure out who the guiltiest men are and invite them to death. And he tells those men that he invited only the Frays worth a damn, the men who helped me kill the Starks at the red wedding. Finally as you, and 10 beers [sorry TB, that’s how Siri interprets what I said ] , and Enharmony show, it’s as much justice as vengeance. Why else would she carefully read out the charges to those guilty men? Like her father, she looks them in the eye and gives them a reason before she swings the sword, metaphorically speaking.
So yet more cast members stating not everyone will love the ending. Whilst in a fandom so large it’s clearly not going to please everyone but I’m guess we will lose a few of the main characters and perhaps there may not be happy ending for both Jon and Dany this is what they are hinting at.
On a different note, surely we cannot be too far away from another tease and potentially confirmation of when S8 will air? The HBO boss said we should get the full trailer by the end of the year so a tease through October perhaps stating GOT S8 April 2019 with maybe a soundbite cannot be too far away. We could then get the first trailer in December and the final one in Feb if the show airs start/mid-April as a lot of people think.
Also I saw Captain Marvel has released a full trailer and that airs in March, I know it’s a film but is that a fair comparison to suggest we cannot be too far away now?
The whole Dany dying thing rose up because there is set-up for it. Most people seem to push her winning the throne even now so I’m not sure it would be a total surprise especially within the wider fandom.
Uh oh!
Can someone alert the mods that a previously banned troll, who regularly insulted other users of this site and the moderators and spammed articles with tedious walls of repetitive and often offensive text, has resurfaced again with a new username?
*cough* Boay = Artemisia *cough*
For those in any doubt: https://watchersonthewall.com/john-bradley-hints-sam-bran-will-remain-formidable-team-season-8/#comment-1037409
Interesting predictions and hard to disagree with any really. I feel Jamie and Cersei are both bound to die, I doubt we will lose any more Starks but if we do Bran is most likely simply as once the Nights King falls I’m not sure what happens with him. I’d see Jon has less than 50% of dying and Dany less than 90% perhaps 30% for Jon and 70% for Dany. Sam I’d rate as 99% certain for survival, would be a big surprise if he dies.
Two things: Jon accepted being credited for avenging the RW——what Arya did will be popular if not her methods. And nobody will know about Frey pies.
I don’t Think she killed them all because he invited only the ones who helped him at the red wedding, if they all helped him then maybe so. But his making that distinction implies that some of them did not. As to 2 weeks, fWalder could have sent out an invitation that read something like, “dear family, I am giving an extra special feast commemorating the red wedding and a great victory. I know who you are So if you didn’t bloody well earn it, don’t bother to come. Walder”.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
My Good Man:
I’ll second the motion.
I’d also note the Moderation Policy addressing alter ego screen names:
“Additionally, we ask that commenters choose one screenname and stay with it, as using multiple screennames often is connected to trolling activity.”
Wolfish,
Well yes, I do visualize Theon dying to save other characters – specifically the Stark family – because that is the only way he achieves “redemption.” Rescuing Yara has nothing to do with redeeming himself for sins so egregious that even he said they’re beyond forgiveness. (In S6e2 scene with Sansa, I think.)
Rescuing Yara, defeating Euron, and then taking the Iron Fleet north to help the Starks (Knights of the Vale last minute come to the rescue-style) and then stepping in front of Sansa or Jon to take an arrow to the heart… that’s the kind of self-sacrifing heroic ending that’d be appropriate for Theon.
Otherwise… who cares?
That’d be an entertaining sub-thread: Identifying our single favorite scene of S7. Hmmm. I hadn’t thought about that carefully, though Arya-Brienne sparring (s7e4), Sandor-Beric conversation (S7e1), Sansa-Arya battlements reconciliation (S7e7), and “You’re not going to die today, Ser Jorah” (Sam S7e2) come to mind.
[Slight mini-whinge: Arya-Nymeria reunion should have been a highlight, but it wasn’t.]
Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled programming.
Thanks for everyone’s responses. I knew my opinion would go against the popular train of thought on that particular issue. I have enjoyed the debate, but fear we’re going round in circles. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one 🤝 It’s not impacted me so enormously I no longer like her character; I do, just not as much as before, that’s all. Prior to season 6/7, my favourites were Jon, Arya, Sam and Tyrion (I’m sure that’s a popular choice of favourites). Post season 6/7, it’s changed ever so slightly to Jon, Davos and Sandor. I still like almost every character on the show, including ones that usually polarise opinion (i.e. Dany and Sansa).
I forgot to comment on the actual story in this post. Give Kit his sword HBO! C’mon! And Maisie Needle too for that matter. Would a dragon be too big an item to take away from the set for Emilia? No?
Please don’t conflate all books-preferrers with the Stannis stans. They were very strident, but I think nowhere near the majority of readers. Most of us find it completely believable that he would sacrifice his daughter to his ambition, and that it will happen in Winds.
Ten Bears,
I’d don’t really enjoy ratting on people, but things always start out fine and then descend into insults again. Pretty sure they were temporarily banned for a while, then when given a second chance they soon went full-on loco and started insulting Luka and the moderators. Better that every new alias gets zapped before things turn ugly, I say.
Stark raving read,
Good to see you too!!! Drop me a line. 🙂
Ten Bears,
Petra will never forgive you for these dastardly thoughts!!!
A little late to the table here, but I tend to agree with Che that Arya’s wholesale slaughter of male Freys was a bit over-the-top. If she does this in the books, I’ll bet that it will be a much smaller core group.
A fact about House Frey that is harped on in the books, and only glancingly mentioned in the show, is that Walder has soooo many sons, grandsons, great-grands etc., many of whom he has outlived, that the line of succession is always in flux. His heirs are always squabbling for preferment, and a few not above arranging unfortunate accidents to befall their competitors. Some are more ruthless than others, but none particularly gifted or suited to leadership.
Amongst all of these Freylings there must be more than a few who are just keeping their heads down, hoping to avoid irritating the old man or painting targets on their own backs while they wait for his decrepitude to overtake him. I don’t buy that Arya could have identified who they all were, or how much or how willingly they were involved in the Red Wedding massacre scene, in the space of a fortnight’s snooping.
The massive scale of her revenge scene was doubtless chosen for cinematic impact. Seems to me that an ongoing series of unexplained deaths of Frey scions over an extended period of time, like Jaqen’s assassinations at Harrenhal, would much better suit the Faceless method than one grand coup. It would also sow more intimidation and disarray among the survivors.
of the about five subthreads this discussion has now, i’d like to stick with the one about Arya eliminating House Frey. first, let me mention that i think anyone participating in this special discussion has some really interesting points, starting with sub-thread opener Che whose thoughts on justice and moral might be a must-read for certain people involved in and influencing the far field of justice these days.
two major points have been repeated throughout this discussion: the mass killing of the Frey males showed Arya’s dark side is one. it would come back to haunt her is the other. i disagree with both.
the dark side of Arya was shown in the use of some of the parts of Beavis Frey and Butthead Frey to give Walder Frey the last supper he deserved. killing the two dumbasses is one thing, but all the kitchen work then just to make sure the alpha-mummy’s last feeling is shock – that is killing by script, taking all the time it needs to prepare for the climax. which in this case is Arya’s farewell to Walder: “the last thing you see is the face of a Stark smiling at you.”
smiling! that is stone cold and dark!
compared to this celebration of a revenge kill, the murdering of the remaining Freyboys is done pretty emotionless. and it would be poor writing imo if it came back to haunt Arya in any way.
Because if haunting has to be mentioned here it must be from the other point of view. something has been haunting Arya for a long time, and she got rid of it: the things she saw at the Twins in the night of the red wedding. her brother with his direwolf’s head stitched to his body, yelled at by dozens and dozens of Frey soldiers. did Arya yell after the Frey sons had their last keg… excuse me, cup of wine? no.
i think the mass murder scene is in no way a cheap opener of S7 for the sake of shock effect. it had some other meaning: it had to show that the girl starting as Arya, becoming Arry, becoming No One and leaving Braavos as Arya Stark of Winterfell really is Arya effing Stark of bloody Winterfell now – and she has more control of her darker impulses and a stronger will than her mother Catelyn.
why i mention Catelyn? because when really everything was lost at the red wedding, Catelyn surrendered to her desparation and cut the throat of the captured Lady Frey. Arya on the other side saved the life of the Frey woman next to her without even needing to do so.
Nice one to start S7 with “how do different Ladies of Winterfell behave at the Twins?”, right? that’s what i think was the main purpose of this scene, as the finale of the show could as well have done without Freys like anyone in Westeros could.
Enharmony1625,
“However, Jon was fighting for the North, and fighting against an immediate threat posed by the Boltons. The North would have remained divided and would not have been able to stand up against the threat of the AotD had they not gotten rid of them. In contrast, Arya’s reasons were all personal, and the Freys posed no immediate threat.”
————–
• I’m not so sure Jon’s motives for wiping out the Boltons was because it was imperative to unite the divided North to defend against the WW. To me, that excuse was a Hail Mary pass thrown by Child Whisperer Davos after Sansa and Jon had both failed to persuade Lyanna Mormont to help them retake WF.
Sansa expressly said just she wanted to retake their home; Brienne echoed that when trying to convince the Blackfish to help Sansa. At every step of the army recruitment process, neither Jon nor Sansa ever said anything to the Wildlings, Lord Glover or anyone else about the WW or Army of the Dead. The Wildlings agreed to help not because of the WW threat, but because the Boltons, Umbers and Karstarks would be attacking them.
[See Excerpts from S6e4, e6, e7, and e8, below].
• If getting rid of the Boltons was essential to unite the North to prepare to fight the AotD, a massive battle guaranteeing thousands of casualties on each side even if the Starks won made no sense. Uniting the North while decimating its fighting forces would be the worst plan possible.
————————
EXCERPTS
(Sansa to Jon, S6e4):
Sansa: “Winterfell is our home. It’s ours and Arya’s and Bran’s and Rickon’s, wherever they are. It belongs to our family. We have to fight for it.”
______________________
(Jon & Wildling, S6e7):
Wildling: “Look what’s left of us. And if we lose this, we’re gone. Dozens of tribes, hundreds of generations. Be like we were never there at all.
We’ll be the last of the free folk.”
Jon: “That’s what’ll happen to you if we lose.
The Boltons, the Karstarks, the Umbers, they know you’re here. They know that more than half of you are women and children. After they finish with me, they’ll come for you.”
________________________
(Jon, Sansa and Davos at Bear Island, S6e7)
[First Sansa reminds Lyanna Mormont she was named for Lyanna Stark, and she’s sure Lyanna Mormont will be a great beauty too. That appeal goes nowhere.
Then Jon takes a shot; he mentions “our duty” to stop Ramsay especially because Rickon Stark is his prisoner – but nothing about NK or AotD.]
(Jon to Lyanna Mormont, S6e7)
Jon: “Ramsay Bolton cannot be allowed to keep Winterfell, my lady. It is our duty to stop him. Even more so because he holds our brother Rickon Stark as prisoner. What you have to understand, my lady, is that–”
(Davos & Lyanna, S6e7):
Davos: “As long as the Boltons hold Winterfell, the North is divided. And a divided North won’t stand a chance against the Night King. You want to protect your people, my lady. I understand. But there’s no hiding from this. We have to fight and we need to do it together.”
________________________
(Jon & Sansa and Lord Glover, S6e7)
Glover: “I’ve heard enough. We’ve only just taken back this castle from the ironborn. The Boltons helped us do it. Now you want me to fight against them? I could be skinned for even talking to you.”
Jon: “The Boltons are traitors. Roose Bolton–”
***
Glover: “There’s nothing else to say.”
Sansa: “I would remind you that House Glover is pledged to House Stark. Sworn to answer when called upon.”
_____________________
(Brienne to Jaime at Riverrun, S6e8):
Brienne: “Lady Sansa desires to take her ancestral seat back from the Boltons and assume her rightful position as Lady of Winterfell.”
(Brienne to Blackfish, S6e8):
Blackfish: “…. I don’t have enough men to help her take Winterfell.
Brienne: “You have more than she does. She wants her home back.”
Firannion,
I think bringing in the Freys from the books here is not a fair comparison because this is (so far) a show-only thing, so we have to go by the evidence that the show has given us. While there are more sympathetic Freys in the books, we have yet to see any on the show. If there is to be a mass Frey killing with potentially innocent casualties in the books, I would say it’s more likely that Stoneheart does it as opposed to Arya.
It’s my feeling though, that this was the show’s version of getting rid of them in one fell swoop as opposed to a more drawn out series of events that will probably occur in the books.
I do understand that making the assumption that there “must” be some Freys who are just going about their day-to-day business is logical, but the show presents no evidence of this at all. Any valid interpretation or insight into a story has to be based on evidence or hints that story gives you. Otherwise it’s just baseless speculation. What was it that Tyrion said, “You can’t believe a thing just because you want to believe it.”
The show has shown us time and time again that Arya doesn’t kill innocents. In fact, the scene with Arya and the Lannister soldiers just after the Frey poisoning reminds us that there is still humanity in her, that she hasn’t gone over the edge, and that she doesn’t kill indiscriminately.
There’s always a small chance that it may be revealed in season 8 that there were a few innocents in that mix, but I hope not. I would think that if her desire for vengeance eventually resulted in an innocent life lost that it would be dealt with in a much more significant way than “oh, by the way…” a season later. That would be a major turning point in her arc.
In terms of whether two weeks was enough time to determine which ones were guilty or not, I honestly don’t know. And I don’t know that you, or anyone else does either for that matter. For me, it’s enough to accept that she was able to. Also, it was two weeks since the last feast, which she was also at, so she obviously arrived even before that. She clearly had been at the Twins for more than two weeks when all’s said and done. More importantly, though, is that she specifically calls out the men at the feast as those responsible, so the show is telling us right to our faces that these are the guilty men responsible for the RW, and showing us that she spared the innocent lives of his wives/daughters.
Argue with the writing if you will, but it seems to me any suggestion that there were innocents at that feast is completely baseless.
P.S.
• One better solution might’ve been to have an undercover operative infiltrate the enemy forces in WF and stealthily eliminate Ramsey Bolton, Harold Karstark and Smalljon Umber and their lieutenants.
Gee, is there no one who could accomplish such a mission????
(BTW… Say what you will about Stannis assassinating Renly, but the end result was Renly’s 100,000 strong army flocking to Stannis without a single casualty on either side… except for Renly.)
Enharmony1625,
“The show has shown us time and time again that Arya doesn’t kill innocents. In fact, the scene with Arya and the Lannister soldiers just after the Frey poisoning reminds us that there is still humanity in her, that she hasn’t gone over the edge, and that she doesn’t kill indiscriminately….”
…Argue with the writing if you will, but it seems to me any suggestion that there were innocents at that feast is completely baseless.”
————
Precisely. That scene emphasized over and over that all of the Frey doofuses in attendance were guilty. Walder identified them as the “men who helped me slaughter the Starks at the Red Wedding.” They all cheered. They all toasted.
The North remembers…sometimes. But Arya never forgets. 👸🏻
Enharmony1625,
You make some good points. However, I would like to question what we mean by innocent and guilty? Perhaps, as someone higher up the thread mentioned very relevantly (I’m sorry, I forgot who), it is my approaching this from a 21st century stand-point and from a country where the death penalty exists now only in our history books, that is clouding my thoughts on the matter. Even within my own country, I’m a bit of a socialist lefty, so I may be hard to sway on this one 😂
To me, innocent is a bit of a muddy word that is far too simplistic to use in a circumstance such as the Frey and the Red Wedding massacres. If we assume Walder Senior and the Boltons, along with his closest confidants (his two pie-bound, most senior in ranks, sons) to be truly guilty and deserving of a death sentence in the world of GOT, then how to we rank all others involved? How do we rank the 99th least senior Frey in attendance, who had nothing to do with the plan, the operation nor the execution of the event (and people)? The one who was merely present, but had nothing to do with it? Let us not think about their state of mind, whether they were enjoying it or feeling revulsed, but simply their actions. Are they innocent? Probably not. Are they so guilty they deserve to be killed? I would argue not.
That is why I feel the whole thing is a too sweeping. Firannion makes a good point in suggesting the true Faceless man way would be to gradually take them out after ascertaining their guilty and I agree that this is true. To wipe them out in the style she did seems to be the show runners garnering audience likes with a bombastic show of “F@ck yeah!” at the start of the season.
I think that in a show that has brought characters to life through their very believability and in a world where there has been such nuance in even minor character developments and motivations, this whole thing was handled badly. I don’t consider it baseless to assume that in that room there were some who didn’t deserve to die. The world that has been built for this story is epic in its minutia and detailing. From Theon, to Jaime/Tyrion and Dany, we have characters rising from some dubious-intentioned Houses. I find it hard to believe that this was not the case in House Frey. It’s pretty conclusive there was no one left to lead the Freys as Jaime says they were wiped out. So no good Freys in over a hundred descendants? Really? This we are to believe from a show that has given us a wealth of character depth.
death by chickenfire,
I have enjoyed this debate enormously. I love the folk here at WOTW. Always a fascinating place for a discussion.
I just wanted to say I think I misused the term ‘haunt’. When I said that, I meant that I believe there will be repercussions to those actions later in the story that Arya hadn’t planned for, not that she would grapple with her emotions in having butchered them all. I do think it may become an issue for Jon and it may have wider ramifications than that.
death by chickenfire,
Interesting comparison with Catelyn at The Twins. The difference between the two situations however, is that Catelyn was powerless and knew with near-certainty that she was going to die. Arya, on the other hand, had all the power at The Twins and was in full control. Would she have done what Cat did if she were that situation? I would like to think not, but it’s just as likely that she would. When facing your last moments in those circumstances, rage, anger, and despair just fully take over.
I do agree that Arya killing Walder and feeding him the pie has been her darkest moment. Of course he deserved it, but it’s still very unsettling that she’s capable of going through with something like that.
Perhaps “haunting” was the wrong word to use for describing what I was getting at. I meant more that her deeds will come back in a way that will affect her story arc. Most likely that Jon will find out, and what will that mean for their relationship. Again, not that he’ll see it as a bad thing that the Freys are gone, but just being shocked and concerned that she’s capable of such a thing. And honestly, given our discussion on the topic here in the forums, I want to see that play out on the show as I think it’s very interesting.
The way you were talking about the events of the RW haunting Arya though, made me think about one important fact about her character: how tragic she is. No child should ever have to experience even a fraction of the trauma and shit she’s seen. Ever. Yet beneath her sometimes violent and cold exterior is still the compassionate, loving, loyal, and whip-smart girl we met back in season 1.
One of my favourite things about her story is that she decides, completely on her own and at great risk to her life, to reject the Faceless Men and spare the life of Lady Crane. Even in the face of potentially having no family left, or anyone else to turn to. That very much exemplifies her strong character and sense of morality!
Che,
I don’t consider myself very far from you on the societal spectrum, so at least we can see eye-to-eye on that. 🙂
You make good points on the meaning of “innocent” in this context and its degrees when it comes to the responsibilities of the various Frey men and what part they played in the Red Wedding. I guess what I would say is, have we seen any of that on the show? For better or worse, no we haven’t. From the Freys who killed Grey Wind, to all those killing Stark men, to those then desecrating Robb’s body, this was a mass effort on the part of the Freys. Again, argue with the writing if you must, that the show has painted the Freys with one brush in contrast with other houses as you point out (and it wouldn’t be the first time the show has had to simplify things for the sake of expediency). I just think that it’s unfair to level that as judgement against Arya when the pattern established by the show over the course of 7 seasons directly contradicts this.
From Arya saving and standing up for Gendry, Hot Pie, the chicken merchant, Sally and her father, Lady Crane, the Frey women, the Lannister soldiers.. there is a clear pattern here that the show is telling us. I appreciate your logical thinking that with so many Frey men there has to be some who are not deserving of the sweeping justice Arya delivered, but without concrete proof (or at the very list a hint) that there were such people in that room when she served the poison, it completely contradicts what is shown.
On the question of whether this could have been handled differently, did we want episode after episode of Arya just killing Freys one by one? Or a cheesy montage? I think many of us agree that Arya’s revenge arc needs to come to a close, and we don’t need to see more of revenge kills from her. So I’m really fine with that opening scene to be honest. The writers definitely knew it would be a “F*%k yeah!” moment, but like you said, I fully expect it to circle back around and result in some consequences for Arya in season 8. It wouldn’t be GoT if it didn’t.
Not quite. We are also entitled to bring our own knowledge of human nature, based on life experience, to our understanding of a story. And that’s why I don’t buy the show’s depiction of Arya’s revenge as being compatible with its investment in Arya’s being an ideologically pure character. Just as there are no perfect heroes or perfect villains, there are also no families whose members are all good or all bad.
It’s a problem of the visual medium, which relies on broad strokes and has minimal time for the development of nuance. TV audiences want everything in predigested morsels. Had the scriptwriters included any scene showing any Freys just trying to ride out the storm without getting involved in butchery, viewers would have grown impatient with what would have been perceived as a boring and pointless digression. No way they were going to give us that level of thoughtful detail.
Instead, we are asked to accept the ‘all Freys are worthy of execution/Arya is always morally righteous’ double premise. And I’m saying that, based on real-world knowledge as opposed to solely what the script tells us, I don’t find it persuasive. I do find it rather a cheap shortcut that oversimplifies a complicated character. (And I continue to hold to my prediction that having to mercy-kill LSH will be the catastrophe necessary to divert book!Arya from going down a very dark road permanently.)
Your mileage may vary, and if it works for you, fine; but don’t tell me that I have to swallow the show’s presentation of the scenario as making much sense, just because they set it up that way.
Ten Bears,
Good points. And you’re right that retaking their home was a large part of their reason for going to war with the Boltons. I do think tough, that Jon’s reasons were more altruistic. As he says in one of his speeches in season 7, “The North is my home, and I will never stop fighting for it.” But I’m also reminded that even though he challenged Ramsay to a 1v1 duel so that no one else had to die, he knew he wouldn’t accept, and wanted to make him angry. Furthermore, Jon must have known that Sansa executed Ramsay by feeding him to his dogs. So does Jon have the right to be concerned and upset with what Arya has done?
Well, that’s why I want to see that conversation in season 8. 🙂 I want to hear that play out because I think it’s very interesting to see how these two characters would see each other given all they’ve been through.
I say that I think Jon will be most upset if he sees that Arya gets a sense of gratification and pleasure in her killings because that seems like the GoT thing to do. In contrast to Arya, Jon admits in season 7 that he doesn’t enjoy what he’s good at. That to me makes the most sense in causing some tension between them after they reunite.
Firannion,
“Had the scriptwriters included any scene showing any Freys just trying to ride out the storm without getting involved in butchery, viewers would have grown impatient with what would have been perceived as a boring and pointless digression. No way they were going to give us that level of thoughtful detail.”
—–
In a way, we got the equivalent of such a scene when Arya encountered the Lannister soldiers later in the episode: just a bunch of guys trying to “ride out the storm.”
Enharmony1625,
“On the question of whether this could have been handled differently, did we want episode after episode of Arya just killing Freys one by one?”
———–
Wedding massacre followed by hunting down and killing each of the culprits one by one… and you’ve got Kill Bill Vol. I & II.
Enharmony1625,
If anyone should have “the conversation” with Arya in S8 about taking pleasure in killing, it’s the reformed killer who had once been fond of saying “killing is the sweetest thing there is” – and has started feeling guilt and remorse.
Here’s their casual conversation in S4e8 about the joy of killing:
Arya: “I’d thought it’d make me happy, but it doesn’t. Not really.”
Sandor: “Nothing makes you happy.”
Arya: “Lots of things make me happy.”
Sandor: “Like what?”
Arya: “Killing Polliver, killing Rorge.”
Sandor: “So you’re sad because you didn’t get to kill Joffrey yourself? Is that it?”
Arya: “At least I could have been there to watch. I wanted to see the look in his eyes when he knew it was over.”
Sandor: “Aye, nothing in the world beats that look.”
Arya: “You protected him for most of his life. Do you think you could have saved him?”
Sandor: “I wasn’t the damn wine taster. Little sh*t deserved to die, but poison– poison’s a woman’s weapon. Men kill with steel.”
Arya: “That’s your stupid pride talking. It’s why you’ll never be a great killer. I’d have killed Joffrey with a chicken bone if I had to.”
Sandor: “I’d pay good money to see that.”
Che,
“I have enjoyed this debate enormously. I love the folk here at WOTW. Always a fascinating place for a discussion.”
Ditto. ✅
Foreshadowing of a chicken bone coming in handy when all other weapons are lost? Or perhaps a wight bone?
Uuuuh…that came in my mind: If NK makes it to King’s Landing – would he wighten Geoffrey out of his crypt?!
So Arya better should keep a chicken bone in time!
Absolutely. But I do think our interpretations need to adhere to what the story is laying out for us, which is why I just can’t get behind the idea that there may have been some innocent people at the Frey feast when the show is clear in telling us that Arya gathered those responsible and that she is sparing the innocents in the room: the women. I agree that it’s illogical to a degree, or perhaps put a better way, a little too convenient, but I have to admit that it doesn’t bother me. It’s consistent with how the show has portrayed the Freys, and for the sake of expediency they didn’t want to spend much time with them, so.. mass poisoning it is.
I also feel that the complexities in show!Arya’s character isn’t about whether she does or does not kill innocent people (I know in the books this is a little murkier; e.g. Dareon). The complexity in her character is more about what affects her actions have had on her, how they’ve changed her, and the conflict between that good compassionate side of her while still being capable of such brutality against those she feels deserves her justice. As such, I don’t believe it’s fair to just assume that she inadvertently killed innocent people at that feast when the show is not laying that out as part of her character arc.
Furthermore, in my defence, I feel my interpretation of Arya is far from “ideologically pure”. 🙂 I fully accept her flaws just as I embrace her many virtues, and have never shied away from acknowledging her dark side or some of her more questionable decisions. She remains, for me by leaps and bounds, the most empathetic character in the story. Like anyone needed reminding of that, but hey.. 🙂
Ten Bears,
Double ditto! Thanks to all the thoughtful, intelligent input by Che, Firannion, Ten Bears, death by chickenfire, and anyone else that has chimed in. 🙂
Ten Bears,
Oh for sure. Good ol’ Sandor would be a great candidate for that chat given that he has experience with the things Arya has done, and is now on his own sort of redemption arc. The reason I mention Jon though is because Arya’s love for him and his for her. The moment she heard he was alive and at Winterfell, she changes course to go home to reunite with her brother. So I think if Jon can’t accept some of the things Arya has done it will be incredibly devastating for her. There’s been a long tension in the air for these two to reunite, so I’m a bit skeptical that it will just be rainbows and sunshine for these two when they finally meet.
That being said, I’m certainly clamouring for an interesting Arya-Sandor chat where he finds out what she’s been up to, and just how right Brienne was about her. Sandor might feel a mix of pride and concern, and then sit her down and say, “Ok wolf-girl.. I’ve learned a few things in my time since you left me on that hillside..”
Enharmony1625,
I’ve argued for at least two or three years that if there ever comes a time where it’s evident that Arya might go over the cliff into darkness, Sandor will be the one to pull her back—because he’s the one with the deepest comprehension of how sweet killing can be, and how deep the abyss it leads one into. He’ll never say so in so many words, but he cares for Arya as deeply as he’s ever cared for anyone, and he would not want her to wrestle with the darkness of the soul he has come to wrestle with every moment of his existence.
Enharmony1625,
But have we seen that many Freys full stop? We’ve seen Walder and his eldest, most gruesome offspring. We’ve seen some moronic ones being challenged by Jaime & co. We’ve seen a handful partaking in the butchery of the Red Wedding and soldiers mutilating and performing grotesquely with Grey Wind and Rob’s corpses. That’s it right? Unless I’m missing something. So Though you’re right, there isn’t the evidence in the show to suggest there are Freys with a conscience, there isn’t also evidence to suggest every single one is evil like one of those traditional fantasy stories with archetypal ‘pure and good Hero’ VS ‘evil to the core Baddie’ GRRM dislikes so. The whole scene is jarring in the notion that the audience are expected to believe: that there are no good Freys (as we’ve already ascertained, there were none left to lead the house as Jaime points out later that they are all wiped out – even if one had survived, they could take charge of the house and commandeer the armies).
It’s just done badly in my opinion and sticks out like a sore thumb in the wider ethos of the show/books. I mean, take the Wildlings. A huge part of Jon’s arc has been convincing the peoples of the North and Night’s Watch that the Wildlings are not all the evil butcherers that everyone misbelieves them to be, but are in fact people like everyone else: there are the generally good ones, the generally bad ones and a whole spectrum in between. So we are to believe that the Wildlings have depth, are grey, are nuanced and deserving of character depth, but the Freys are just all bad? Like I said, it’s just done badly. In my opinion, GOT is at its best when it is being subtle and that scene was as far from subtle as could be.
A curious question for those who very much disagree with my take on Arya’s actions; with all the characters in this show showing us that no one is wholly good/pure/righteous/just/moral nor evil, why does the suggestion that Arya may too be one of these grey characters who does something ‘wrong’ (in the moral right/wrong way) invoke such a powerful response? I’m just curious. I don’t think there are any truly moral people in this story. Jon comes the closest in my view with the way the story has been told thus far with Arya not far behind (bar the Frey incident), but I actually find his moralistic stance a bit unrealistic in the grand scheme of the show. Post-being-risen-from-the-death, when he wanted to run away from it all to the south seemed the most realistic thing he’s done thus far! As well as beating Ramsay to a pulp*.
*Slight segway* I think it was Ten Bears who raised this as being on par with Arya’s actions at The Twins, but I might just say I wholly disagree with that – Jon’s attack on Ramsay was not a pre-planned, cold-blooded (mass) murder, nor did he seem to get any satisfaction from it in the way Arya did. I’m not saying he was not exacting revenge for having just watched Ramsay murder his little brother and for his treatment of Sansa, I’m sure it was, but it was a very different situation. And most importantly – he stopped before it was too late. I actually think Jon’s character would have been more interesting if he had killed Ramsay (I prefer grey characters), but that’s a different debate!
Thank You, Che, I wondered about that, too.
Che,
We also had the trio of Freys that Arya and Sandor come upon who are mocking Robb and Cat’s deaths.
In terms of the Wildlings, they have been given far more screen time on the show than the Freys and have been an integral part of Jon’s story, so the show is giving them proper development and nuance as opposed to the Freys. It just comes down to the limitations of the visual medium and where they choose to focus the time. The RW is seen as an abhorrent act by.. well, everyone I would hope, so it’s easy for the show to paint the Freys as “the bad guys” who deserve a comeuppance. But I feel like I’m going to circle around to all my previous arguments, so I’m going to answer your next question because I think it’s an interesting one.
As I said in my response to Firannion, I don’t think Arya is a wholly moral and righteous character. There is a darkness in her, and not all her actions are ‘right’. I very much gravitate towards complex, layered characters as well. But why the powerful response on this topic? First of all, because I think it goes against what the show is telling us about her character (and I say show here because there’s not telling how or if this will happen in the books, so I don’t want to cross over into that territory, and the show is doing its version of Arya, Jon, Jamie, etc.). I feel its one of the grounding aspects of her: she doesn’t kill innocent people. In the face of her brutal actions against her enemies, the show has used this to keep her a little more balanced, and to keep her from crossing too far into darkness. As I mentioned previously, this has been a pattern that has been established since season 2 and has continued right up until season 7.
Another reason I think just comes down to the passion we all feel for the story and our favourite characters, and we want to stand up and argue against certain views we feel are unfair or misguided. Arya, in particular, is one of the best, most interesting characters I’ve come across in a long time (both book and show), so I suppose there is a sort of “protectionism” I feel for her. I can’t speak for anyone else, but that’s the best way I can put it. I also have very strong opinions on things, and have never been shy about voicing them, so I guess there’s that too. 🙂
And just in short (I’m running out of time), here are a few of Arya’s choices I don’t agree with:
– joining the Faceless Men. It makes for a great story and I love this about her arc, but joining a death cult is not a healthy way to deal with your trauma.
– feeding Walder his sons in a pie.
– being driven by vengeance in general.
However, I can see why she made these choices, and these choices deepen and complicate her character, and make for a very interesting story.
(the problem of adressing many contributors without being capable of having their names shine in the underlined blue they deserve… you know, this is for all of you from the past 30 or so comments, ok?)
this is so much input. i hope i can at least deal with 10% of it, but there’s a better chance i even fail at that.
first thing i want to say is that i appreciate commenters being upset about injustice and mass murder. i said this before, and i gladly repeat it. just, we are watching a tv-show containing fantasy, spiced with political and moral standards of something 700 AC. darkest ages. we hopefully won’t see them again. what we see right now, the trend of preferring dumbest nationalism, even tribalism to being organized in a state that guarantees equal rights for all is an expressway to 700 AC. but being 50 years young now, i hope i’ll miss the bitter-bitter outcome.
just my long take on “we cannot view “GoT” through the lens of our present – it’s hard enough we have to do this with “Idiocracy”.”
now to as many points as i can scroll… the first is honorable Che’s doubt about all of the blacked-out Freys being guilty because every house or family has some black and white sheep. well, let’s blame Walder’s cock for the shock effect of Arya needing to kill (sic!) so many muppets. let’s compare house Frey to other Houses.
Frey: some dozens of male ex-Walder-sperms, many involved in murder, no exception known from the show. lots of male Freys to get rid of.
Karstark: few, very few descendents. daddy Rickard lost his head, his son Dickard (correct? no?) licked Ramsay ->Bolton’s boots when Rickon Stark was gifted to Planetos’s most gifted sausage weaver. and the last of the Karstarks is yet to show if her pledge is worth her next holidays on the pony yard.
Umber: Greatjon died in Robb’s war. Smalljon is the guy serving the funniest piece of speech into Ramsay ->Bolton’s face when he delivers Rickon, Osha and Shaggydeaddog. what an asswipe! his son pissed his pants when he renewed the pledge of alliance to Jon Snow.
Bolton: Roose was a brilliant and coldhearted piece of shit, end of. his batshit son Ramsay was even closer to the very the definition of a piece of shit, of a really bad person. any other Boltons i know from the show are called Walda, and she was nice and therefore a victim.
so we have three houses with a few really outstanding asswipes. and we have one with paddocks full of outstanding, mediocre and wannabe asswipes – and kids. that one being wiped off the planet’s surface is of course a mass murdering, but what if Roose, Rickard and Greatjon had the same opportunities to contribute to the global gene pool like Walder had?
would we see Ramsay becoming one with his dogs through different eyes, if there was a bunch of half-Ramsays left? like there would have been Freys left when Arya decided to take them out one by one, announcing the end of GoT to be postponed to the killing of whatdoiknow… Yoghurt Frey? in S13E5?
Walder’s cock is to blame for the shock effect the extermination of his house has. ask Roose, Rickard and Greatjon!
(i wanted to reply to so many of your comments directly. but i’m feeling more and more tired, and everything i could write from now on would most probably be bullshit. forgive the huge fanfare at the beiginning of this!)
“I loved that girl like she was my own. She was good. She was kind. And she didn’t kill me!”
– Sandor Clegane.
Wolfish,
I could go with either one of the two (or a combination of both?) having that talk with Arya, but I must admit, Sandor makes a lot of sense. It has the potential to be a beautiful scene! Arya and Sandor was one of the favourite things for D&D to write and watch in season 4, so I think it’s a pretty good bet we’re going to get some great stuff between them in season 8!
Wolfish,
Yes, you have, and quite eloquently. And I agree with you. Also. from a show-only fan’s perspective, the significant time Sandor has spent with Arya throughout S3 – S4 compared to the single scene between Jon and Arya in S1e2 makes Sandor the more logical candidate to have “the talk” with her.
I’d have to endorse Arya’s methods as well. The implications were so strong that all the men who were invited to and attended that final Frey feast were very “into” the Red Wedding, I honestly didn’t question it. I reckon we are to assume she confirmed that within the two-week-ish period. And the Ed Sheeran scene, her prevention of the girl from drinking, various bits with Sandor–we saw these things as evidence that she hasn’t become an indiscriminate killer. The Freys have been portrayed as an all-around nasty house, much like the Boltons, with few if any members who’d be too good to honestly support the brutality. I hope Jon doesn’t take too much issue with the things his little sister (er, cousin) has done.
As for “what it’s doing to her,” “what she’s capable of”…I don’t know, to be honest. Regardless of age, if I knew for certain who had murdered someone I loved in cold blood, how could I not take great pleasure in giving them back at least as good as they’d dished out? Aside from the obvious tragedy of anyone–and particularly such a young person–having to endure what she and most of the other characters have, Arya hasn’t disturbed me. She is indeed creating justice and improving the world where others would just shrug and allow evil people to continue committing evil. She’s done society at large some big favors, and as of now, far more good than harm.
I also love Jaqen–though I haven’t quite been able to decide about his evilness. Obviously being a Faceless Man (especially the apparent Chief Faceless Man xD) requires total neutrality and impartiality…yet, because you have to be willing to kill potentially innocent people just because someone’s paid you to, thereby promising their life to the Many-Faced God…that’s still evil, no? Doesn’t matter that you’re only providing a murder-service rather than actively choosing people to kill yourself. And yet, he seemed to me to be…proud of Arya as she declared her identity and set off to continue her mission. Is he truly neutral and impartial? Did he actually favor her over the Waif, was he sympathetic to her plight? I couldn’t help wondering. And I hope to see him again in S8. Perhaps he could have some role in the ultimate battle. (Tom Wlaschiha liked my Instagram comment expressing as much, lol, so maybe there’s a chance. XD)
In matters of the Freyizid: Did anybody remeber the story Bran told Rickon, Osha, and the Redd-siblings, when the hid in the riun of the mill, some minutes before Sam and Gilly appearded? The story about the cook/ratking, who was damnedd to scuff his (rat)children, because as cook he killed the son of his king and presented him baked in a pie?
He wasn’t damned, becuase he killed the prince, but because he offended the right to hospility.
I see Arya’s Freyizid/ratkingstory as a kind of parable,: Walder the one, who offended the right to hospility should scuff his eldest sons and damned the rest of his progeny (Arya couldn’t really bake all of them to pasty) by his own bad deeds.
So far I won’t say, it was bad storytelling by D&D.
cos alpha,
Yes, that was definitely an intended parallel.
Please excuse all my typos – I was too late to correct them *shame*
Enharmony1625,
Without a doubt, the Freyicide was intended to be Rat King Redux. Aside from Bran’s story, Arya heard about the Freys’ violation of Guest Right during dinner with Rabbit Stew Sally’s father.
And she knew the ratking-story as every Northern child did.
Ten Bears,
Move over Long Tall Sally and Mustang Sally, we’ve got Rabbit Stew Sally!
Great comment…..exactly so!
I love Arya. From the very beginning of the saga, on both page and screen, she has been my second-favorite character (after Tyrion). And I don’t have a problem (other than a general moral objection to killing anyone) with her taking out Walder Frey and perhaps a few of his chief lieutenants.
It’s just the mass scale of the poisoning scene that doesn’t sit well with me. We don’t know yet how her vengeance against House Frey will manifest in the books, but I doubt that it will be that spectacular. The scene seemed designed for maximum visual shock value and to amplify fans’ image of Arya as ‘badass.’ Not to say that I didn’t take momentary gratification in it, but in retrospect it seems like a cheap shot and unworthy of the character’s well-honed stealth skills. Grandstanding isn’t ‘my’ Arya’s style. Even if I could suspend my disbelief that every male adult in House Frey was fully supportive of the Red Wedding massacre, I still would find this staging heavy-handed. So yeah, it’s a writing issue.
Are you serious?
I find that very disturbing – that in the modern world some people still cling to the notion that bloody vengeance is not only excusable but desirable.
I’d be good with Sandor having that heart-to-heart with Arya. But first, I’m holding onto hope for a particular scenario for their reunion: Sandor dismounting in the Winterfell courtyard, Arya and Sansa both spotting him simultaneously from opposite sides, brief exchange of wordless looks of amazement, then both Stark girls rush him from two directions, slamming him into a joyous Sandorwich. He briefly resists before dropping the tough-guy mask, going down on one knee and hugging them back. One tear trickling down a scarred cheek, like Jaime’s one melting snowflake.
I would be blubbering.
Firannion,
I think at some point we all have certain forbidden desires/impulses that would be considered disturbing to others. The difference is that majority of people don’t act on that desire. I think that’s mainly what separates good from bad in this world.
Personally, I would consider it disturbing if someone lost a loved one in cold blood and didn’t wrestle with some internal feelings for vengeance. The disturbing part for me is acting on it.
It’s human. Hence the viewing rooms in execution chambers.
This quirky writing and events gave me a bit of a chuckle. (This is a different train of thought from the discussion on whether Arya was wrong or right or just semi-right.)
One of the best GOT scenes was Tywin and Arya chatting. Tywin at his warmest I think! In that conversation, Tywin tells Arya that she reminds him of his daughter.
So Mass Killer 1 (of the Reynes plus) tells Mass Killer 2 (of the Freys) that she reminds him of Mass Killer 3 (of the folks in the sept).
To save people having vapors – note that I am not asserting that they are all “mass murderers” or that these persons are all alike or even that desire for vengeance ties these killings together. Clearly Arya, Tywin and Cersei are very different characters. Most viewers (including me) will see no serious comparison of the persons/events and for some, discussion of killings in terms of justice/vengeance could go on to occupy us until Season 9 to sort out (meaning never!). But, I think we can all agree that these 3 characters are all responsible for mass killings.
Anyway, now when I look back at the Harrenhal chat, this overlap makes me chuckle. I am easily amused.
Naturally. I don’t see what’s disturbing about it. The fault would lie entirely with the one that had committed the heinous crime–not at all with the one who prevented them from committing another. The former is the inexcusable one. What would be more “modern” or “desirable?” Permitting a criminal to go unpunished? Trying to “forgive and forget” the unforgivable and unforgettable? It wouldn’t be right to go on revenging things back and forth until you were avenging someone you didn’t know against someone who hadn’t actually wronged you. But in situations like most of Arya’s, where guilt is known beyond a shadow of a doubt and you see that you may have to take the opportunity to bring these scumbags to justice yourself…of course I have no issue with that. They’re the ones with the problems, not her. Which is why she’s eliminating them and giving them what they deserve.