As we gear up for winter (whether its winds are coming or not), the Game of Thrones cast is busy as ever, attending cons, as is so common for actors enmeshed in popular culture these days. As such, Kit Harington (Jon Snow) and Gwendoline Christie (Brienne of Tarth) attended ACE Comic Con this past weekend. And in their spotlight interviews, they were asked about GOT, as well as some of their other characters and upcoming work. While most of us (myself included) were unable to be there, thankfully some lovely camera folk recorded them for us. What did they say? Let’s dive in and take a peek…
Gwen gave a fantastic answer when she was asked how she balanced being Ser Brienne of Tarth and Captain Phasma (Star Wars), given they are such dramatic roles, when she is so funny? Her answer, predictably, is full of Gwen’s trademark insight:
There was no balancing to be done. Parts like Brienne and Phasma mean something – to me and to popular culture – That’s why I persevere in this job I’m lucky enough to do; they communicate a message. These characters spoke to me in a very profound way. And because of what we’ve been fed from the mainstream media, which has been from a very patriarchal perspective, we hadn’t had a lot of diversity or variety of women’s stories, and so I found that these characters spoke to me on many different levels, and I just wanted to communicate them and what it said to me. That’s about joy to me. That’s my absolute state of bliss – to be in service of an idea greater than myself, whether it’s changing perspectives of the way women look or being a badass with a sword. But that’s what I love, so that’s joy and humor to me. That’s my interest – it tends to lie in drama, and finding the comedy in the tragedy…
She is so full of wisdom, and I just love listening to her speak. You could hear and see the audience hanging on her every word. More importantly, she is extremely passionate about diversity and opportunity, and has this to say about the future of pop culture, and why Brienne is so influential: “The Internet has given people a forum to make their voices heard. People want to see themselves represented in the stories that are told. We need to see a realistic depiction of our world, and people can only realistically respond to what we’re given.”
Then, of course, because I know you’re all askin’, she did address the direwolf in the room. What are her thoughts on Brienne’s season 8 arc, and does Gwendoline feel that it did the character justice?
I have to say that I did. I loved that Brienne got to have her first sexual experience! *screams ‘sexual experience’ repeatedly while the audience chants* I loved that she elected to have that sexual experience. It was her choice. I love that her storyline for the final season wasn’t defined by that. She gets the promotion she always wanted. And, she was alive. I loved that about her. It didn’t tear her down. It didn’t live on. It didn’t demolish her. It didn’t break her down. She went through a human experience and went through the wide variety of human emotions that we can have that befits us being on the Earth, but she achieves her dreams and becomes Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. She was made a knight on her own terms. So yes, I was delighted.
Sorry to all the detractors, but I’m very glad to hear her affirm her positive reception. I loved her arc too, and have been defensive of it for quite some time, so I’m glad to know that I’m on #TeamGwen.
Meanwhile, over at the Wall, Kit Harington had a bit to say as well…
One of the coolest things Kit was asked was how 10 years of living inside a character has affected him, and how much of Jon he carries with him every day.
I always felt with Jon that one of the struggles is that I was always playing someone who is a better person than me. He’s good to his core. He’s loyal, he’s brave, he’s honest, he’s truthful to his very core. Playing a character like that for 10 years of your life is intimidating…playing someone who is the very essence of good and brave. So, I can only hope that some of him does live on in me, or that I learned something from him. I loved him dearly as a person and I really enjoyed playing him. When meeting fans or meeting people in the street, [I see] that Jon was a very beloved character…whereas some of my friends have it a bit harder like Jack Gleeson, playing Joffrey, or Alfie [Allen] playing Theon. I had it easy because people followed Jon – they liked him.
That last bit about the difference between Kit’s street experience and others is both funny and scary. I’ve run into several GOT celebrities in the streets (Joseph Mawle and John Bradley) and they were lovely, but I don’t understand how some people can’t disassociate the actors from the characters they portray. Anyway, when pressed about what items he took from set, Kit notes that he wasn’t allowed to take Longclaw home, so he contacted an armorer to get his own copy made! Additionally, he, um…ended up with some other presents: “The one thing I managed to grab were his gloves and the van braces, the bit that goes around the glove. I got a life-size statue of Jon Snow as well from the (season 8) promo where we all come upon our statues of ourselves in the crypts. They asked me, Maisie [Williams], and Sophie [Turner] if we wanted them and I was the only one who said yes. It’s in my garden shed.”
For more on Gwen’s journey through hardship, perseverance, and the (slowly) changing face of representation in the industry, or more from Kit regarding pranks, his favorite Harry Potter books/movies, and what kind of ‘dark comedy’ he wants to make about himself, watch the interviews!
It was a brilliant final season arc for Gwen by Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss. I wouldn’t have wanted it any other way. A marvelous and magnificent ride from start to finish.
I’m happy the intentions with Brienne was positive for the ending. And hearing Gwen say that help me liked Brienne’s ending even more. Brienne is one of the strongest woman in the story. And I meant her personality.
And I agree with David. It’s strange that many can’t see the difference between the actor and the character. I would love to meet Jack Gleeson, he seems like a sweet kid back then.
Same with Lena, that would be a blast, an evening with her, I think at the end your yaws hurt from laughing.
Looking at the photograph at the top of this post, I’m thinking the title should be changed from “…Kit Harington reflects on playing someone as good as Jon” to…
”Kit Harington reflects on playing someone as brooding as he is.”
Jack Bauer 24,
I don’t disagree. Still, didn’t you find Jaime’s “seduction” kind of sophomoric, with the whole “it’s hot in here…lemme take my shirt off”?
While I didn’t anticipate Brienne & Jaime physically consummating their relationship after the lovely knighting scene, I expected something a little more erotic from Ser Goldenhand – something to rival their famous S3 bathtub scene. While I would never have anticipated GoT would actually show a Arya & Gendry love scene,
Arya’s interrogation-seduction was much more passionate and romantic than Jaime’s clumsy encounter with Brienne.
(Yes, I know. A Girl has many gifts. 👸🏻😍)
Do you really think she liked the end for Brienne?
I did not realise it myself but was advised by another poster on Gwen’s costuming at the Emmys. Didn’t she come to Emmys dressed as a Lannister bride? In a red cloak clipped over her shoulder by a lions clasping a blue sapphire? What do you think that was all about from Gwen? Do you think it was accidental? That she picked that look randomly…maybe not?
Both Emilia and Gwen said they needed to take long walk after they read the script for the first time. Well, could it be that they were surprised and not in a good way?? But they got with the job! And did well in their work.
Even if they hated their end, the actors would hesitate to be explicit for concern about injuring their careers….and we should expect them to show common sense in their comments. I cannot blame them – it was only a job and there will be others.
Of all the characters, Brienne’s arc was the best in season 8 by a mile. I didn’t expect her to be so relevant this season. Ideally, everyone would like that each character had their best arc in the last season. But it is not possible. Some characters reach their peak before, some do it later on.
I think she liked it overall, once she got to the end and realised that she was getting a promotion. There is a lot to be positive about in that. I love watching her interviews, she is so wonderful and articulate. I think she had a problem with Ep 4, specifically the break up scene, she went red in the face, got very upset and had to go for a walk when she read it.
According to NCW’s body double, she cried all day shooting the scene and only stopped when David Nutter gave her a hug. She refers to it as a complete rejection, and I think she was hurt by that, and the way it was done, she doesn’t try to soften it at all. That was also her last scene with NCW which must have been a bummer. She looks on the bright side though, and has obviously come to terms with it, which is great for her. I’m not getting into my personal thoughts, as I have expressed them many times lol, I agree with Gwen for the most part.
I have really enjoyed Gwen reflecting on Brienne. I note that she seems to have a rather increased fan base since the show has ended – more so than perhaps anyone – and I think it’s because it really was important to show female stories of triumph and vulnerability. I think some of that upset re Dany has found a place in people reflecting on Brienne’s smaller but still important story and recognising that as a role model, Brienne is probably one of the best choices at series end.
I don’t have any problem with NCW taking his shirt off 😛
The dresses are not decided by the actresses, I follow Carice on facebook and she showed video’s how the dresses of the Emmy’s are made and given etc. I only forget if it the Emmy’s themselves decide it or HBO/GoT.
As for the ending, Gwen interpreted Brienne as the strong one in the end. So I will go with that. And that makes me happy, it could also be that Gwen interpreted as Brienne not able to being happy anymore. But she didn’t.
That’s why I found the actors and actresses of GoT so great, they really dive into the character they portrait. They feel what their characters feel. Sophie had the same reaction with the funeral pyre scene.
The actors all have stylists, and they will get shown a bunch of outfits and choose one. They don’t just get allocated a dress. This one was actually made for her by Alessandro Michele, she says so at the beginning of this clip.
I think Sophie’s was custom made as well, I want to say Valentino but I can’t remember from the top of my head.
Oh thanks, but aren’t those stylist working for the emmys themselves? And as you state they already have made a couple of outfits where they can choose from or do they also have a say in changes from those outfits?
But maybe Gwen chooses this dress because her season 8 story was connected to Jaime?
And did you saw carice dress? I’m don’t know anything about dresses but it was a cool dress.
^ Too late to edit, but Sophie’s dress was a custom Loui Vuitton. Maisie wore JW Anderson, just in case Ten Bears wanted to know lol.
Not that I know of, unless the Emmys work differently to other award shows. The actor normally hires their own stylist (who could be working for multiple people) they will ask what type of look they want, what designers they like, do they want custom etc, and they will go and source a bunch of options. Gwen’s partner is Giles Deacon, and he has styled her a few times, not sure if he did the Emmys. I guess with this one, Gwen may have talked about a colour/story/theme and then Gucci came back with the Jesus dress.
Yeah, Carice’s dress was Ronald van der Kemp, and it was hand painted, it was different that’s for sure. Sorry, I like the red carpet round ups, so I’m a bit nerdy about it lol.
Sophie’s dress is Louis Vuitton because she’s the face of one of Vuitton’s campaigns. She wears a piece from Vuitton’s Knights collection of jewelry around her neck, one that is flexible and moves with the body, without a clasp, inspired by medieval knights’ armors (about a thousand diamonds in it, encrusted in white gold, called L’Armure necklace).
Gwen’s and Nick’s costumes are a big troll and a wink to the fans. It’s like they rectreated a Lannister wedding, her in Lannister red, him in Lannister gold. It’s so funny! I don’t think it’s more than that though. (sigh)
I’m glad Kit figured it out with the sword –a copy is better than nothing.
He should have kept Longclaw. Why didn’t the producers make a copy of it and keep that for themselves, and give Kit the original?
Life sucks; it’s injustice all over. (another sigh)
Yeah, I thought he of all people should have gotten his sword, its the most well known on the show and the stunt/fight choreographer’s raved about how good he was with it. It would be like Elijah Wood leaving LoTR without Sting, both he and Viggo Mortenson kept their swords. HBO being stingy. Gwen wanted Oathkeeper and never got it, Maisie should have got Needle as well.
”I don’t have any problem with NCW taking his shirt off 😛”
He should have gone the Full Monty, like he did in the S3 bathtub scene – at least from behind.
I always think this scene (at about 0.20) is one of the most understatedly funny moments of the show – I think Brienne might be the only person to ever call Jon out on his broodiness
Gwen knows her fashion. She knew what she was Stirring the pot with that Emmy dress 😉
Good spot! I didn’t remember Brienne commenting on Jon’s broodiness in that S6 scene with Sansa.
I’m not sure though if ”Brienne might be the only person to ever call Jon out on his broodiness.”
Wasn’t there a scene in early S7 on Dragonstone when Tyrion was bumming out that he’d come to brood and felt even worse because Jon was outbrooding him? Or something like that?
Lol, this reminds me of a scene in Top of The Lake, Elizabeth Moss’ character asked Gwen if she would ever be a prostitute, Gwen said ‘no…. it’s a bit bleak’ in that exact tone, it was oddly funny.
Brienne has a bunch of chapters in the last two books. I think it’s an even bigger role than the show. I haven’t had that much to report on my book journey. My son is getting married at the end of October so my time has been pulled to do a slide show project! I’ve also been in synagogue again for two more straight days with sukkot..but this afternoon I was able to read a bunch. I’m about 1/2 way through both books now, but I kept falling asleep today..not because of GOT, but just tired from all the holidays. I just got to another Jon chapter. He doesn’t seem to be brooding quite as much as the show!
I had a surprise today…
I’m still too far away from the next Arya chapter though…but I will get there…
I look forward to reading more Brienne chapters. I do think GRRM has a consistent theme going with Cersei, Arya, Brienne, Asha (Yara), Dany and others with strong women in a man’s world. I read one of Cersei’s chapters about how if Jaime said the same thing she did, people would just say OK, but to her the men have to offer their advice and sometimes don’t listen at all. Brienne is always underestimated, and she is a major POV for GRRM.
Have you read the books completely? It’s written where he is and what happened in White Harbor.
No… I am in the process now… I’m following boiled leather’s path, so I go back and forth between AFFC and ADWD. I just looked and I’m half way through AFFC and not quite half way through ADWD. The next 5 or so chapters are all ADWD so I’m guessing I’ll be at least half way once I’m done with those…
I’m fairly sure that scene did happen and (if it did, have yet to get the gumption to do a rewatch to confirm) was a low-key highlight of mine that season.
That’s so lovely, I hope your family has a great day!
I was talking about the Arya/Cersei/Brienne thing the other day, there is a definite theme there. Although Cersei is completely delusional in most cases, as her decisions are TERRIBLE lol.
Brienne is kind of the eyes on the ground, you see so much through her eyes, but she has her own story as well, and she’s so kind and brave, my heart… I can’t help it I love her. Oh by the way, what did you make of Sam’s dad? Good old Randyll and his lye soap. He’s worse than he is in the show!
I’m still waiting for Lady Stoneheart to appear and I think she’s part of Brienne’s story from something I read online awhile ago… It makes sense based on where Brienne is geographically….
So Brienne is in the top group with her number of POV chapters in AFFC/ADWD. (She’s just in AFFC though). I just compiled these into a leader board from online sources… It’s interesting to see just how many POV characters there are!! I do agree with those who said it may have been nice to stick to the main group of POV’s, since my brain is getting a bit blurred with so many minor characters showing up as POV… I mainly want to hear from the main group and of course Arya
It’s interesting to see how little Sansa is in there… I didn’t realize it until just now. I don’t exactly get motivated thinking about when Sansa’s next chapter will come… I have to say though, I loved Sophie’s performances in seasons 7 & 8. She may win my vote for most improved actress over the course of the series.
Chapters in AFFC & ADWD
Jon – 13
Tyrion – 12
Cercei – 12
Dany – 10
Jaime – 8
Theon – 7
Sam – 5
Quentyn Martell – 4
Davos – 4
Barristan Selmy – 4
Asha (Yara) Greyjoy – 3
Bran – 3
Sansa – 3
Jon Connington – 2
Victarion Greyjoy – 2
Aeron Greyjoy – 2
Arianne Martell – 2
Quentyn Martell – 2
Areo Hotah – 2
Melisandre – 1
Arys Oakheart – 1
I have to say the show version of Randyll is still mainly in my brain. My book brain is currently trying to make sense of Cersei’s edicts and plots (and delusions as you say). I had to think back to the scene in the book you mentioned, but I recall it now. Yes he is extreme! As a show watcher first, I will forever see his scene at the dinner table with Sam and how awful he is with Sam (and how John Bradley physical demeanor changes during dinner and how he cowers. John Bradley was brilliant!)
Brienne and Arya had much bigger role in the last season than I expected.
Cersei’s chapters are the best part of AFFC. And Jaime’s.
Yes too big and I think they should have deleted in Feast the next characters: Arys, Areo, Victorion & damphair.
And add in Dance: Areo, Victorion.
And add in Winds:
I agree. Cersei’s plan was brilliant to read.
The actor is so perfect for Randyll, I imagine his voice when he speaks in the books, his disdain for Brienne though…. made me so mad. He might just be the worst father in the whole of ASOIF, if someone wants to suggest another candidate for the worst father award be my guest. Wait no, I think Craster probably takes it. It might be easier to name the few good ones…. Ned, I genuinely can’t think of another.
Just because you wanted Brienne and Jaime to have a Disney ending doesn’t mean everyone else does. Gwendoline Christie has said she loves Brienne’s ending, and there’s absolutely no reason to assume she’s lying.
”… It might be easier to name the few good ones [i.e., fathers] …. Ned, I genuinely can’t think of another.”
Sandor! … Thank you.
GoT is full of awful fathers. Think of Sandor’s father, Tyrion’s, Theon’s, Shireen’s –
Brienne’s father seemed to be really good. Olly’s father seemed ok too, for how little we saw of him. Doran may be another.
Davos was a good dad, wasn’t he? He wanted the best for his sons. (It wasn’t his fault one of his sons drank Mel’s Kool-Aid.)
Davos is a good father, but a terrible husband.
Oh Gwen. 😊
Did anyone else see Alfie on “Ellen”? He is so charming – and a rare interview, so I love seeing him. 😁
On the show? Or in the books?
I have not rewatched S8e6… Didn’t Ser Davos wind up as Master of Ships in KL? Isn’t that where his wife lives? Wouldn’t Master of Ships be a step up in status for his family, including his wife?
It didn’t seem like he was the only one away from home for years on end fighting in wars; and he did serve Team Jon in the Great War, even though the battle itself only lasted one evening.
More important (to me), Davos got to witness first hand Arya slicing and dicing wights with her custom-designed double-tipped spear. (Though I’m not sure what he was doing there as a spectator…)
Arya vs. wights S8e3
Davos watches Arya at 0:52
Good work people, I forgot about them all lol, we don’t see much of them in their dad roles so it’s easily done. Selwyn gets dad points for not making Brienne go through with her betrothals, Davos seemed like a good dad, even though he fell out with his sons over the Red God. We at least know Doran isn’t bad, but I’m not sure if he’s good either. Sandor can go on the list as a father figure.
I hate Theon’s dad.
Brienne should have returned to rule Tarth.
She is heir to her own house and this matter was not addressed in the end . Sure, her father could find some-one else but Brienne is very focused on honor and duty, yet she simply settles for a job in which she will produce no heirs or serve her own people. If she leaves Sansa’s service then on Tarth, she could have been a leader instead of serving Bran the Useless who treated Meera like garbage. Brienne would make a better head of a house than other women in GOT.
We met her as a security guard to a king (warm and charming one even if deceitful) and she ends up as a security guard to another king (cold and cruel, at least to the only woman we have seen serve him.). A circle of a path.
The actors have no choice but lie or avoid the question if they hated the end.
But the question is, what does Brienne rather want. Being a kingsguard leader or a lady of a household?
She made that pretty clear in book and show. She wants to be a knight and “I’m no Lady”. She is a bit the same as Arya, she doesn’t want to be a lady of a household.
Most perfect would be if she can marry now, that Bran change the rules, I think that’s what Brienne suites best. Marriage with her dreamjob on the side.
(But I think that never happened, wasn’t the reason that Kingsguard couldn’t marry because of the safety of their families. Families can be use as bargaining chips.)
I think both endings make sense. Brienne has always wanted to be a lady as well as a Knight, but she couldn’t because of her stature, that’s the difference between her and Arya, Brienne is basically Sansa with a sword. She left Tarth because she couldn’t stand disappointing her father, better to do it at a distance. So thematically, her becoming a Knight, gaining self confidence and returning to rule her House would be a good ending for her too. In a way her becoming a Kingsguard is her giving up on her secret dreams, which I find a bit sad, but we can’t always get what we want.
Show Brienne is less interested in being a lady, she’s older and more set in her ways, so show Brienne as a KG I’m ok with, 20 year old Brienne who wanted to sing to Renly? I hate it.
Sometimes I wonder did you even watch the show.
You show very poor understanding of characters, their motivation and the story in general.
She [Brienne] “made that pretty clear in book and show. She wants to be a knight and “I’m no Lady”. She is a bit the same as Arya, she doesn’t want to be a lady of a household.”
Yup. That’s how I saw it.
I don’t know how Brienne was portrayed in the books, or if GRRM made any direct comparisons of Brienne to Arya. On the show, however, I thought the similarities were made conspicuous; in some ways Brienne saw in Arya a “Mini-Me.”
When Brienne first encounters the swordfight-practicing girl in S4e10 (which I believe is a show-only scene), Brienne and Arya compare experiences, smile at each other, and start bonding – until their pleasantries are interrupted.
In their next encounter three seasons later in WF in S7e4, Arya approaches Brienne and says “I want to train with you”, and they bond (again).
(Bonus: This clip features Arya’s dagger twirl at 0:44, and hand-to-hand dagger flip at 2:45)
Well, before ratcheting up the rhetoric, can’t we agree that Mango provided cogent, fact-based reasons for his opinion? I honestly didn’t see where he misunderstood the characters, their motivations, or the story in general.
He explained about Brienne:
“She is heir to her own house and this matter was not addressed in the end. Sure, her father could find someone else but Brienne is very focused on honor and duty, yet she simply settles for a job in which she will produce no heirs or serve her own people. If she leaves Sansa’s service then on Tarth, she could have been a leader instead of serving Bran the Useless who treated Meera like garbage. Brienne would make a better head of a house than other women in GOT.“
I’m not here to defend Mango; he’s adept at doing that himself. Whether we agree with him or not, I didn’t see anything he wrote about the conclusion of Brienne’s story that betrayed a misunderstanding of her character.
(Disclaimer: I am partial to Mango’s name for the new king: “Bran the Useless.” 😄)
P.S. In a perfect (fanfic) world in which GoT lasted ten full seasons, we would’ve gotten scenes of Brienne and Arya fighting side by side.
No. We can’t agree that he gave cogent, fact-based reasons because it’s a complete nonsense to say that Brienne wanted to be the Lady of Tarth at the end. And he even claims that the actresses wanted this lol
If you are not here to defend him, then don’t.
I love the Brienne and Arya interactions, there is a clear understanding between the two.
She’s pulled in two different directions, here are a few book Brienne quotes, please indulge me, she says this to Cat.
“Winter will never come for the likes of us. Should we die in battle, they will surely sing of us, and it’s always summer in the songs. In the songs all knights are gallant, all maids are beautiful, and the sun is always shining”.
Does that remind you of anybody?
“Her father welcomed [Renly] with a feast and commanded her to attend; else wise she would have hidden in her room like some wounded beast…
And Renly Baratheon had shown her every courtesy, as if she were a proper maid, and pretty. He even danced with her, and in his arms she’d felt graceful, and her feet had floated across the floor. From that day forth she wanted only to be close to Lord Renly, to serve him and protect him”.
– Brienne I, AFFC
“Did you sing for your father?” Catelyn asked.
Brienne shook her head, staring down at her trencher as if to find some answer in the gravy.
“For Lord Renly?”
– Catelyn VI, ACoK
She had not, not ever, though she had wanted…she had wanted…”
– Brienne IV, AFFC
“Had [her betrothed] lived, they would have been wed within a year of her first flowering, and her whole life would have been different. She would not be here now, dressed in man’s mail and carrying a sword, hunting for a dead woman’s child. More like she’d be at Nightsong, swaddling a child of her own and nursing another. It was not a new thought for Brienne. It always made her feel a little sad, but a little relieved as well”.
– Brienne III, AFFC
“As for you, my lady, it is said that your father is a good man. If so, I pity him. Some men are blessed with sons, some with daughters. No man deserves to be cursed with such as you.”
Words are wind, Brienne told herself. They cannot hurt you. Let them wash over you”.
– Brienne V, AFFC
“A daughter.” Brienne’s eyes filled with tears. “He deserves that. A daughter who could sing to him and grace his hall and bear him grandsons. He deserves a son too, a strong and gallant son to bring honour to his name. […] I am the only child the gods let him keep. The freakish one, not fit to be a son or daughter.” All of it came pouring out of Brienne then, like black blood from a wound…”
– Brienne VI, AFFC
Excuse me while I go and cry now.
That I give you. But that’s what I mean show brienne. Book brienne is a bit different. I think for show brienne I found this ending perfect for her. But as for the books I think I wouldn’t like it. Book brienne as you state is more longing for being a lady then show brienne. And I think in the books her moments with Jaime will be longer. I think in the books she will live with Jaime until Jaime does I’m the war against the others. I think he will outlive cersei in the books. So for book I think her ending will be less sad. At least I hope because if my idea of what winds bring
When we meet Brienne she wants to be a knight and member of Kingsguard. She becomes that in the last season. And that person claims that it wasn’t good ending for her and she should have been a lady.
It would be like saying that Cersei should be a member of Night’s Watch.
I think there is no way that Jaime and Cersei won’t die together in the books, but I can’t prove it because GRRM failed to finish his own story.
But in general I think last 3 seasons are far more similar to GRRM’s plans for the books than many expect.
And don’t forget sandor.
Those ninjas cutting onions in front of me.
I think the problem was more time. I think if they had more episodes,they could have included a scene where brienne talked with Sansa. Sansa could say that now she can return to tarth to be with her family and become a lady. And brienne could tell, that she always dreamt of that, but that she had that love already with Jaime. And that the memory of their time together is enough to make her feel happy. And then Sansa could ask what she will do now?
Even better would be if Sansa went with brienne to tarth. So that brienne can say goodbye to her father.
Well now that you mention it… 😉
Yeah, we are on the same page Re: Book Brienne vs Show Brienne.
Personally, I follow Jaime’s Weirwood dream, Cersei is the only light, she turns away leaving Jaime with Brienne, his light goes out and Brienne’s remains lit. The death order is clear, Jaime may outlive Cersei by minutes or seconds, but he will out live her. It seems like Jaime and Brienne will fight the others, but I have no idea how the timeline works.
I know, she kills me, it’s so sad. If Brienne ever returned to Tarth she would be like ‘f*ck y’all I’m a Knight and i’m ruling my House as a Knight, Septa Roelle can do one’.
Im 99% sure that that won’t happen. Because of what we know will happen in the books that they skipped in the show concerning Jaime and brienne. And don’t forget Martin has given the endings of his main characters. Cersei and Jaime are secondary in his books. As he states himself.
Second is that we know that aegon will defeat cersei. He was seen in the house of the undying being welcomed by the people of kings landing. That means cersei will lose against aegon. And we know it’s aegon and not Jon because it was the cloth mummers dragon. That means cersei will die there or flee to casterly rock. And we know that this needs to happen at the end of winds of beginning of dreams, if everything that needs to happen after that needs to fit in one book.
And I’m almost certain that cersei will die before the battle against the others. Else her story will be dragged a lot after she is defeated.
What we also do know is that Jaime will be fighting against the others in the books. The clues are there.
So there’s no way that Jaime outlive the attack on the others and after that decided to kill cersei or die with her. And them dying by the hands of Dany will not be in the books. Dany will attack kl when aegon is sitting as king there as the house of the undying already foretold.
And don’t forget grrm words. His words when talking about Jaime and cersei dying together was more that he liked that the show did it. And almost as if he states. I’m not going that route. He also stated that brienne and Jaime will be more important as a couple in the books and bigger part of the storyline. He is working to them becoming a couple. And then you need to think if that’s true, how do brienne and Jaime escape lady stonehearts wrath.
What I do think will be the same is:
– Jon will be exiled. The question I have is it north of the wall or where will he go.
– Dany will be killed by Jon for burning kings landing to the ground. She will die as a villain. Only her path to it will be different. And I’m certain euron has a part in it with his magic. And Dany will be the savior against the others.
– Arya goes west I’m certain that will happen.
– tyrion will become the hand of the king.
– bran will be king but not king of the seven kingdoms. He will be
– Sansa will be queen. But not of the north, she will become the queen of the seven kingdoms.
And that’s why Martin said when they ask him of its the same. Yes and no, yes and no. The titles are the same. But what the titles mean are not because he kept that for himself.
All these things that you said that we “know” are not really things that we know. There is absolutely no way that Sansa ends on the throne and D&D put Bran there. They would kill to have Sansa on the Iron Throne.
I remember million things that we “knew” about the show before S8 and they were all wrong. I don’t want to start this discussion because I feel we think and talk more about ASOIAF than GRRM.
Talking about next books is like talking about second coming of Jesus. Some people still think it will happen, but it won’t. We are talking about something that will never exist and I don’t want to waste your and mine time on something pointless.
Let’s talk about the show or future GoT shows.
Talking about future shows is just as conjectural as talking about future books though.
Well, in a perfect (fanfic) world in which GoT lasted ten full seasons, that two-minute scene of Sandor and Arya riding off from WF to KL in S8e4 would have been the prelude to an entire 10-episode season devoted exclusively to their road trip adventures along the way.
I will bow out of the debate. 🤥
”When we meet Brienne she wants to be a knight and member of Kingsguard. She becomes that in the last season…”
Also, wasn’t that her wish (granted by Renly in S2?) when she defeated Loras? To become a member of Renly’s Kingsguard?Renly’s reign and her tenure didn’t last very long thanks to Mel’s shadow baby…
As mau stated, Brienne never expressed any desire to be a lady. She was s warrior throughout the entire series, and, thanks to Jaime, she is now a knight. Becoming Lord Commander of the Kingsguard was always her path.
As I said, there is absolutely no reason to assume Gwendoline is lying. You only think so because her opinion doesn’t match up with yours, which is quite petty.
”It would be like saying that Cersei should be a member of Night’s Watch.”
Now that would have been a subversive ending! Cersei Lannister and Jon Snow both exiled to the new and improved, gender-neutral NW. Which wouldn’t have been a bad idea considering the difficulties the NW faced in populating its ranks, and the various nonconforming warrior women in the show (and books?) who might gravitate towards a military career.
If Lady Brienne could wind up as LC of the KG, why wouidn’t there be Brothers and Sisters of the NW under progressive King Bran?
Welcome to Woke Westeros, where the Night’s Watch no longer wears the black, but wears rainbow colors…
Don’t how much Cersei would like that though. If there’s an explosion or two at Castle Black then I think we’ll know who to blame
Weren’t there a few scenes in which Brienne (echoing Arya) insisted she wasn’t a lady? I recall one in S7 in which Pod called her “My Lady” and she started to ask him not to; and maybe another scene at or around the time of the Purple Wedding in which someone insisted she was a lord’s daughter and therefore a Lady.
(I don’t think she minded though when Jaime called her Lady Brienne in their “formal” conversations in which she referred to him as Ser Jaime, e.g., during the Siege of Riverrun.)
You don’t think it would’ve been a better ending for a bored stiff Cersei to be looking out over the Wall from the top of that broken-down outpost to which Jon tried to send Janos? And instead of nursing a glass of red wine, forced to drink that crappy grog brewed by the NW?
”… I feel we think and talk more about ASOIAF than GRRM.”
Ain’t that the truth. He’s moved on, hasn’t he…
Oh contraire, TB, I think it would be fantastic.
They can use the same exact close-up shot of Cersei’s face that they used over and over again during season 8 when she was chilling on the balcony, but this time, the camera slowly pans out until you can see that Cersei is actually pissing off the edge of the Wall, just like her brother did years prior.
I don’t know if Young Griff/fAegon will play such a vital role in the books. For all we know, GRRM plans on fAegon stepping on a rusty nail and dying of tetanus.
(I mean, isn’t there a reason this character was omitted entirely from the show?)
My guess is that it was just too late to introduce him when they wanted to finish, It would have been S5/S6 and they didn’t want to end Lena’s run on the show in favour of a relative nobody. Cersei was the show for a lot of people (not you of course lol). I think she took over fAegon’s role, right down to using the Golden Company (who are allied to fAegon).
Ha! Tyrion as de facto ruler in KL, while Cersei pisses off the edge of the Wall. Delightful turnabout. 🙃
”Cersei was the show for a lot of people (not you of course lol).”
But I thought the show was an adaptation of A Song of Arya and Sandor…
No, because we know HBO will made them.
“Everyone who doesn’t think like me is lying!”
I don’t know how to break this to you…. so I won’t. You are correct entirely.
It’s all speculation and hypotheticals until we know that an entire season of the prequel has been greenlit and there’s a release date. So far there’s only been a pilot that’s been filmed.
GRRM has released excerpts from WOW. Has HBO released any excerpts from the prequel yet?
The situations aren’t all that different. We’re currently left wondering when we will get the prequel just like we’re left wondering when we’ll get the books. GRRM has promised that he’ll come out with the books, and HBO has promised that they will come out with a prequel.
I have no dog in this fight. To me, they’re both on equal footing. The only difference to me, is that HBO has a better track record of following through on their word. I just don’t understand why you believe it’s inappropriate to discuss future books, yet it’s perfectly acceptable to discuss future shows. It’s all speculation regardless.
“The only difference to me, is that HBO has a better track record of following through on their word. ”
That’s not just “the only difference”. It’s a major difference.
But fine. We can wait several weeks until HBO greenlits Jane Goldman’s show.
We have no idea when the show will be greenlit though, just like we don’t know when GRRM will release WOW, so again, they are currently on equal footing as far as the public knows, so I don’t get this need to squelch conversation about the future books, but not the show.
Playin’ future games…
Fleetwood Mac, “Future Games” (1971)
Potentially dumb question, but what is the Jane Goldman show even about? I remember there were a few scripts knocking about, but I don’t know which one went to pilot.
The first Long Night.
Ah Ok, thank you. But I assume it won’t all take place during the Long Night? It will be the build up to it? Otherwise Season 8’s Long Night will look a bit sad, since it only lasted one night. I know it actually lasted a generation, but wouldn’t that undermine S8 somewhat? Maybe it’s best not to compare I guess.
Ha. Fleetwood Mac is one of those bands that I absolutely love 4-5 songs of theirs, but I can’t stand the rest.
I love Gold Dust Woman, Dreams, Landslide, The Chain, Rhiannon.
There’s probably a few others in there too
Oh come on, you’re not a monster, you must like this one?
“Brienne should have returned to rule Tarth.
She is heir to her own house and this matter was not addressed in the end. (…)
We met her as a security guard to a king (warm and charming one even if deceitful) and she ends up as a security guard to another king (cold and cruel, at least to the only woman we have seen serve him.). A circle of a path.”
True. However, I don’t remember whether the fact that she’s the heir of Tarth was ever mentioned in the show, or Brienne showing any nostalgia when it came to her home and country. She was a guard and she remains a guard and the show tells us that that’s what she wanted to do, that’s who she wanted to be.
Brienne in the books is not like that. She took up a male role because her society wouldn’t tolerate her breaking the traditional image, expectations and behavioral patterns of a proper “lady”, so becoming a warrior was pretty much the only way for her to survive and protect herself from all the emotional burden and cost society would impose on her. It was a one-way path and Jenny’s extracts above pretty much exemplify this. Brienne feels comfortable as a warrior, just like her father thought she would be. Her arc in the books is rather to find that happiness as she is, and I for one think that there’s a pretty good chance that she’ll end up married to Jamie.
Thus narratively-wise the traditional beauty and the beast tropes will have been subverted; the hansome knight marries an “ugly” woman because he sees the beauty of her heart; and the “ugly” but virtuous maiden of Martin’s world marries a handsome knight because he makes her feel loved, but that knight is not a “knight”, is actually a terrible criminal, one that bedded his sister, killed a king and rendered an 8 year old boy invalid. Talk about subversion!
(but even if she doesn’t marry him, their relationship alone contains all these elements anyway and it will be further developed in the books to become a romance)
The show played on that relationship by showing that there was a deeper understanding between Brienne and Jamie, one that surpassed roles, conventions and expectations. There was clearly a romance there aided by script, tropes and filming, but in the end they decided not to take it to its more rewarding conclusion, and this is to be respected. The truth is that show Brienne and show Jamie don’t have many similarities with their book counterparts (more valid for Brienne than Jamie though). So it is not a betrayal to the book characters because the book characters don’t exist in the show.
As regards the show, it could have been explained on screen that Brienne would have to be released from her duty by Sansa. Feudal oaths are taken at face value in medieval times and Brienne actually kneeled in front of Sansa, offering her services back in season 6. Changing service is not self-evident and it’s not one’s right to do so, or one faces charges of treason to his overlord, in this case Sansa.
One might argue that this is a detail, and considering the other problems of the ending (ep. 6), it is. However, it is those details that made GOT so good in the previous seasons.
I will say no more.
Damn, ok, you got me 🙂 That’s a pretty good one, too. Just not my favorite genre of music, I suppose.
One of the main reasons why I got into them to begin with was because I play bass and I’ve always admired John McVie’s bass lines.
“Does that remind you of anybody?”
Yeah! Sansa, aka Brienne with no sword. It’s so horrible that both girls’ dreams and hopes and innocence were crushed like that.
Martin is cruel with his ladies.
Don’t forget “Sentimental Lady” from Fleetwood Mac’s “Bare Trees” album (1972)
Like “Future Games”, Bob Welch’s original version when he was with Fleetwood Mac is much better than his later remake after he went solo.
He is, I will never forgive him for the
I think in the show, Brienne talks about a dance, where the boys pretended to like her and Renly stepped in. I think that story replaced the bet, which was much worse in the book. This is where good old Randyll comes in twirling his evil moustache, GRRM is so mean.
“I have put an end to their sport [they had a bet on who could take her virginity],” Tarly told her. “Some of these…challengers…are less honourable than others, and the stakes were growing larger every day. It was only a matter of time before one of them decided to claim the prize by force.”
“They were knights,” she said, stunned, “anointed knights.”
“And honourable men. The blame is yours.”
The accusation made her flinch. “I would never…my lord, I did nought to encourage them.”
“Your being here encouraged them. If a woman will behave like a camp follower, she cannot object to being treated like one. A war host is no place for a maiden. If you have any regard for your virtue or the honour of your House, you will take off that mail, return home, and beg your father to find a husband for you.”
“I came to fight,” she insisted. “To be a knight.”
“The gods made men to fight, and women to bear children,” said Randyll Tarly. “A woman’s war is in the birthing bed.”
– Brienne III, AFFC
OMG I HATE RANDYLL TARLY!!!!!!!
Sorry, TB. Didn’t care much for that one. Don’t you have any Slayer?
1. Keep listening.
2. I’m not familiar with Slayer. What tracks do you recommend?
You really think that Tyrion will become Hand? I think he’s doomed if he becomes the dragon mother’s Hand. I see him at the Wall in the end (there’s foreshadow I think).
Cersei thinks that her valonqar is Tyrion, so perhaps it’s Jamie, whom she sees as her pet to torture. But if Jamie dies at WF, as his weirdwood tree dream indicates, then how would he kill her? Also, Cersei will have to be alive in the end to see the fulfillment of the prophecy -she will have nothing left, no family, no power, no kids (unfortunately), perhaps not even CR.
I don’t know, this one is complicated. Part of me would like it if it were Tyrion; he’d do it to become the lord of Casterly Rock, I suppose, or just because he hates her, and it would be one of his straight-up villain acts. Chocking is a personal way to kill, and it fits Tyrion’s profile, who has already killed Shae by strangulation. (Jamie is the straight-up knife killer, lol)
But I do see the show ending as book ending, much as I hate it. If the situation escalates into a “civil” war between North and South, then the North will be on Dany’s side and I see Jon and Sansa deliberately choosing to go North and foresake their future in the South (whatever that would be) once and for all, Jon perhaps even choosing self-exile with the Freefolk (not even the Wall).
Eh, speculation, speculation…
Whatever makes you feel better.
”Winter will never come for the likes of us. Should we die in battle, they will surely sing of us, and it’s always summer in the songs. In the songs all knights are gallant, all maids are beautiful, and the sun is always shining”.
Does that remind you of anybody?
I give up.
So much for my tinfoil theory that there never was a first “Long Night”: the old stories were propaganda.
You’d know it if it was Arya! I’ll give you a clue, its a close relation of hers, not named Jon or Bran or Rickon. Brienne is an odd mix of Arya and…..
Was that really your theory? I can’t tell if you are joking now lol
Lol, I’m only joking TB. I’m not a Slayer fan. They’re basically death metal. Though, I will concede that Reign in Blood is a pretty good song. It’s, ya know, a feel good happy-go-lucky kind of tune 😉
I love all kinds of music, but if I had to pick my absolute favorite band it would probably be Tool. I mainly prefer hard rock. I used to love metal, but that was more so during my teenage years.
If you look through my playlist, you’ll see everything from Tool, Hank Williams, Bob Marley, Paul Simon, Cypress Hill, etc…, and everything in between.
I don’t really care for that song either.
Since you play bass, have you heard Orion?
The bass in this is soooo good.
Haven’t clicked on it yet, but I assume you’re referring to Metallica’s Orion when they still had Cliff Burton as their bass player? If so, then you’re damn right I’m familiar with this song and it’s one of the best instrumentals evah!
Clicked and confirmed! Just an amazing song from beginning to end. A beautiful song too, coming from Metallica of all bands. They were very underrated in their early years for their song-writing skills. Not just a loud aggressive metal band. Lots of melodies.
If Martin would said to D&D: Bran will be King, Sansa will be queen.
And nothing more, that can be that what I suggest will be what will happen in the next book. And what D&D did would also be true what they put on screen. As Isaac said. GRRM only told D&D that he would be king. Not of what. And the way GRRM answered the question if the ending of the show and books will be the same with his: Yes but No but Yes but no but yes. Should give you some hints that the endpoints are the same, but not really the same.
That things what I said we know is not just speculation. It’s written text in the books of Martin. Everyone who owns the books can look up those passages.
And it seems you have a glass bowl at home, when you know for certain what the future brings (the books), so please use that glass bowl for me and give me the winning lottery numbers so it can be of use.
And maybe you’re done with talking about the books. The biggest discussion lately is guess what, about the books. So maybe let us who want to talk about it, talk about it, and having fun about it (and waste our time with it, *roll eyes*). And even watchers on the wall posted an article about GRRM and the books this week, so the site is also for talking about the books, even when you suggest we shouldn’t.
Have a nice day.
I thought you would know it, I would describe it as ‘miraculous’. It really takes you places, and then gets all bluesy in the middle, I just love it. I nearly cried the first time I heard it. I really like the new Tool album BTW, I might go deaf listening to Pneuma.
It seems he has a glass bowl at home, where he can see the future in. He clearly saw that the future shows will all get a go from HBO, and GRRM will never finish his books. I wish I could have such a useful tool at home.
Wouldn’t that be awesome.
Don’t forget that the Ale will be replaced with Dornish Red.
No joke. That absolutely was – and is my tinfoil theory: There never was a first “Long Night”; the old stories were propaganda.
I had gathered (what I thought were) clues sprinkled throughout S1 -S7, especially in S6e5 “The Door.” I thought Bran – perhaps with Sam’s book smarts – was going to deduce that there never was a prior Long Night. I thought Bran’s powers and Sam’s old Citadel books would be the key to figuring out how to repel the WWs.
Instead…there was that mumbo jumbo about erasing “memories.” So, either GRRM didn’t share the secret of the WWs with the showrunners, or they just decided to resort to the cliched “mothership” device (i.e., taking out NK deactivates entire AotD 😡) to wrap up the story quickly.
Crank the volume to 11. There is no other way to listen to it 🙂
I think he is omitted because of time, and focus. We already had 2 dragons Jon and Dany. And it would also meant that Lena Heady wouldn’t be in the last season. They just devided Griff/Aegon story among Cersei, Jon and Dany. but
Still I don’t have a glass bowl at home, so maybe he will die next book, who knows. But that means that the house of the undying had a mistake in it. Quaithe’s warning was wrong. And there will be no dance of dragon v2 in the books. So who knows. Maybe he stumble of his horse and die. Still I find it highly unlikely when we look at where Dance ended, and his sample chapters of Winds of winter
Oh I see, you thought Old Nan was a bullshitter, I am disappointed in you (not really lol). I’m curious about the new show, because it sounds bleak, women smothered their babies in their beds to end their suffering. I don’t want to watch people starving for 10 episodes. So it might be the build up to it, and it will take place away from our main characters, but isn’t that what GOT was essentially?
Also, for those complaining about Ep 3 (I was surprised but wasn’t that fussed). It feels like they are giving us what we thought we were getting in S8. I could be totally wrong, I know next to nothing about it, it just seems odd to provide a direct comparison so soon after S8.
And your last paragraph, I think you are right on both counts, there is no NK, and no ‘mothership’ that we know of. I genuinely have no idea how they will defeat the WW in the books without Lightbringer (my tinfoil theory is that it is the two halves of ice).
Well it’s the most important part of the show 😉
I agree with this. And that should be clear when I talked about my frustration with GRRM writing habit’s.
I also think Brienne and Jaime will marry in the books. I don’t know if it’s before or after
As for Brienne leaving Sansa. Sansa promised Brienne she can leave whenever she wants to and that Sansa won’t ask anything of Brienne that Brienne doesn’t want to.
I think that incident competes with the other one with Ramsay-Jeyne-Theon. And there’s also a girl in Brienne’s chapters, I don’t recall her name, my heart was torn to pieces reading about it.
“And there will be no dance of dragon v2 in the books”.
Most of the readers/GOT viewers thinks that the DoD Martin promised will be between FAegon and Dany, and that’s because they refuse to see that Jon will not love Dany.
Meaning, they refuse to see that Jon will be Dany’s rival in the end. This will be the final fight, after all other antagonists have been extinguished, Robert, Cersei/Lannisters, Stannis, FAegon.
That would be very interesting. You think Jon will take up arms against Daenerys? That sounds interesting. As for my take of (f)Aegon.
I’m one of those readers 😉 But what would the rivalry be about, especially if Dany helps in the war against the WW?
Old Nan wasn’t a bullsh*tter. The old stories were either: (a) based on actual events, embellished in retellings over the millennia; or (b) propaganda deliberately disseminated to conceal the truth.
At least those are my tinfoil alternatives. I really thought the show was foreshadowing a surprise twist involving the WWs… until S7 came along.
Or else…Who cares that Sam stole books? Who cares that the CotF created the WWs? Why did all those characters sacrifice their lives so Bran could escape? (Certainly not so he could be king at the end.) Why inject the recurring theme that accepted “history” was often the opposite of what really happened?
I really thought I had a viable theory that even explained the cave symbols. Now I realize I was probably barking up the wrong tree(s). 🤢
I don’t know the answers to any of these things *cries* I wish I did.
Wait, didn’t Gilly find out about R+L=J in those books, Sam just happened to have stolen that one?
Perhaps they will go into this stuff in the prequel, the Long Night should involve all of this stuff I think? GRRM is involved so he will have the answers. I assume the CoTF creating the WW is from him or else we are getting a retcon of epic proportions. They could even pop in to say hello to the 3ER, he’s been chilling in that cave for years so he might be about.
I’ll tell you what I want to know, when the WW took the baby from Craster, he went to some ice palace or something, we never saw it again, what was that about?
“Instead…there was that mumbo jumbo about erasing “memories.” So, either GRRM didn’t share the secret of the WWs with the showrunners, or they just decided to resort to the cliched “mothership” device (i.e., taking out NK deactivates entire AotD 😡) to wrap up the story quickly.”
As a historian and medievalist for that matter I had my peak in season 7, when archmaester of the Citadel tells Sam:
“We are the memory of people”.
And I said, hurrah, at least someone recognizes it!
And then Bran and Sam took it to another level, the mystical sphere, where everything is blurred.
Perhaps it is really that simple. Perhaps it is really just about memory and the recording of reality, of human pain and triumph. (the historian in me says)
But what really confuses me is the Wall.
As per books and show, two or three things are needed to defeat the Others: dragons, dragonglass, Valyrian steel (dragonsteel in the books) and perhaps Melisandre’s “fiery hand” (as it is called in the books). No matter how, or with which combination of these, the Others will be defeated.
But does this mean that they will be extinguished once and for all? Depending on which way it’ll go in the books, this creates complications.
If the Others are extinguished, what is the meaning of the Wall? What is the point of Jon going to the Wall? Moreover, in the Martin’s structured world, what is the point of sending exiles to the Wall, if indeed Jon or anybody else is exiled there? What? The magical Wall is reduced to a simple prison for outlaws? It’s disappointing. And the major questions: will the Wall melt? will seasons have a normal succession or will each season last for years and years as it was before? Will magic be extinghuished? If so, how can Bran still be a magical being?
If the Others are not completely exhtinguished in the books, however, it would mean that the threat remains and all this (ASOIAF) is just an episode in the eternal war between good and evil. The fairytale has no ending. In addition, it is Bran that should be king in the North, because there’d be a need for someone to re-build the Wall, someone with magical powers; thus Bran would be associated with Bran the Builder.
That would mean of course that the ending of ASOIAF would be different than the ending of GOT.
Lol, wouldn’t that be the point of the hidden heir? Why take such pains to hide him even from the reader, let alone the characters in-universe, if his claim has no significance whatsoever?
But, anyway, I’d so like FAegon to marry Cersei, thus they’d both be on the throne when Dany arrives. It would be such a soap-opera twist! But I doubt it would go that way (sniff).
As regards time frame, I think the prophecies may be an indicator. Dany’s the “slayer of lies”. If it plays out chronologically, it would be Stannis-FAegon-Jon. If you’re right about one thing, it is that Stannis will be alive when Dany arrives at Westeros. Also, one of the prophecies Daenerys received had it “to go west [Westeros], you have to go east [Dothraki Sea]; to go south, you have to go north”. In my opinion this means that Dany will arrive in the North long before she moves south against FAegon. In the North she fights the Others and potentially reveals Stannis is a fraud (Jon of course will have taken the dragonglass he needs from him, not Dany); then she moves South with the alliance of the North against FAegon. They do what they do in KL, in anycase FAegon is gone. And there finally she finds out that Jon was also lying to her (probably hiding his identity), which would make him her contestant/rival. That would be the dance of dragons 2, provided that both dragons are alive.
But all this depends on the chronology of the events. If the prophecies give away a time-frame, then it could go like this.
Btw Meereen is east of the North (I think almost in straight line from Widow’s Watch).
Well didn’t you watch season 8? Jon refusing sex after finding out he is a secret Targaryen.
Another thing that I though of that I think that season 8 will mirror the last book, as in first destroying the WW and only after that destroying KL. If that is true, that means Aegon will be defeated after the WW invasion. And that can push Jon like in the show to end Daenerys when he sees the burning of KL. But I think in the books, where dragons chooses their dragonrider, he has total control of Rheagal, which made sense when looking at the name.
But if that’s the case what could have pushed Daenerys north. Probably not the White walker invasion, how could she know, except if Quaithe will send other visions in winds about the WW invasion. That’s why I also think that Stannis will win against the Bolton’s. So that Daenerys lands on Dragonstone, learns of 2 enemies. One is the mummer’s dragon, who sits on the Iron Throne, her throne. She wants him gone. But north is her other enemy. The brother of Robert, Stannis who helped Robert against the defeat of her family. Taking her home. (which after I start rereading the first book this week, is a lot on Dany’s mind). She made a choice. She first deals with the one who took her home from her, Stannis, a Baratheon who seems to work with another enemy of her, the Starks (she hates Ned because of Robert, she even cheered his death can’t remember if that was book or show). She deals with Stannis first. And only after that with the help of Jon she takes KL with brute force, which will turn Jon against Dany.
”As a historian and medievalist for that matter I had my peak in season 7, when archmaester of the Citadel tells Sam:
“We are the memory of people.”
Exactly. So what if Bran-o-Tronic 3000 gets his memory wiped? Just like humanity did before the internet: go to the f*cking library.
”But what really confuses me is the Wall.
As per books and show, two or three things are needed to defeat the Others: dragons, dragonglass, Valyrian steel (dragonsteel in the books) and perhaps Melisandre’s fiery hand…”
Except… when it came down to it, dragonfire didn’t work against NK, and Melisandre’s spontaneous combustion tricks looked cool but didn’t get the job done either. All that dragonglass weaponry didn’t do much.
It took a VS dagger-wielding Super Ninja Warrior Princess to bring the dawn. 👸🏻🗡
I want to know that theory, maybe it can still be true for the books.
wasn’t the WW in the books
And another question that has been asked in the books is why the WW woke up now. And where have they been, I mean nobody seems to have any idea of them and said they are just a myth for over 1000 years. It’s strange. Where were they sleeping, and why did nobody ever stumble on them. Out of the blue they were back.
So what did woke them up. I can’t seem to think they were waiting for something because what would they be waiting for, and why did they not took over every living soul in above the whole before.
Some think that Mance found something in the frostfang that woke them up. Maybe a horn?
Another thing that I’m leaning to is Euron. He seems to have visited Valyria and survived, nobody ever did that. Maybe he found something there that woke them up, or maybe he is even responsible for their existence again.
So maybe the WW of this book/series are in fact the White Walker version 2.0, and the white walkers before were really defeated. But the magic to create them, keep on excising.
”Wait, didn’t Gilly find out about R+L=J in those books, Sam just happened to have stolen that one?
I thought Gilly read about R’s annulment + marriage to Lyanna in a book while Sam and Gilly were still at the Citadel, and Sam later stole a whole bunch of different books when he left the Citadel for good.
In fact, I thought the whole purpose for Sam going to the Citadel, as he had discussed beforehand with LC Jon, was to find information to help defeat the AotD. I thought he’d find some critical intel in those stolen books, or some fragmentary clues from which his superior intellect would piece together a brilliant solution.
Sam’s contribution to the Great War was… what exactly? (He gave a VS sword to Jorah, who didn’t use it to slay any WWs as far as I could tell.)
But how would that be possible Cersei and Eagon together. That can only happen if somehow Arianne would be murdered.
But what’s so difficult in the books is that we know Eagon will be king, Jon’s parentage is important but how? Daenerys needs to be queen for a short time. But also we know Euron will be on the throne for a while. And LF storyline needs to lead somewhere, and that needs to be combined with all that.
And I agree with your assessment of what will happen, and I like the to go west you need to go east, and south you need to go north. Good catch.
And I got a catch when reading the books, Martin is a sneaky writer. Bran’s first chapter, he visit all his siblings, we know that that is happening right now because of what happened to his siblings. But he also looked East, Asshai. And dragons are still alive there. That was the only information we got about Asshai. And he also looked at the heart of always winter, and he wakes up.
And to give my own though. Isn’t Valyria right in the center of Asshai and land of Always winter? I’m probably wrong.
Why did the WWs wake up? My farfetched tinfoil theory explains that too…
That, however, relies on the assumption that the revelation that the CotF created the WWs, came from GRRM. That revelation didn’t amount to anything on the show. Perhaps it will in the books?
Yeah, that was because Jon’s not a big fan of incest. Based on Ygritte’s comments, the Old Gods don’t seem to like it much either.
Stannis also burned “Mance” alive, which Jon didn’t like. But this did not turn Jon against Stannis and Jon had a great deal of respect and admiration for Mance.
I’m not sure why Jon would want to push his claim to the throne? Prior to his tenure as LC, Jon was interested in leadership (just like in the show) but finds leadership an absolutely miserable experience — full of burdens, full of misery, full of isolation. I’m not sure why would Stannis’s death would change Jon’s mind. Not to mention the difficulties of trying to convince people he is a Targaryen. If fAegon is having trouble, I can only imagine the difficulty Jon would have and I don’t know why Jon would want the throne.
But I do think, if love does not happen between Jon and Dany, that if the burning of KL goes down the same way (I’m really hoping it’s more nuanced in the books), that would turn Jon against her. However, I expect a personal relationship will develop between them based on what Alan Taylor shared of GRRM’s comments on Jon and Dany and there are, perhaps, some passages seeming to indicate it (such as those shared in the comments of this post) — but these passages are all guesswork and are not a guarantee or certainty, no, but this has been long speculated, stretching back as far as 20-some years. But you’re right that this isn’t by any means a certainty. I, myself, think the “broad strokes” will be the same between the book and show, with book-only/show-dead characters making some changes to the details.
That is an interesting theory about Stannis! Personally, I think Stannis will certainly perish in the war against the Boltons and Dany will be the one to face Cersei in one way or another rather than fAegon. There’s the Maggy the Frog vision Cersei has: a younger-more-beautiful-queen is prophecized to “cast [Cersei] down and take all that (she) holds dear.” This seems to indicate Dany rather than fAegon.
As for drawing Dany north, you mention visions and Dany has visions relating to Jon and the Wall but I don’t know how these will come into play:
As Jon dies in his POV chapter, Dany hears a wolf’s howl:
From A Clash of Kings:
While I do think Stannis would be a good reason for her to come if he survived, I think Dany will be concerned with Cersei holding the Iron Throne. I think the reason Dany comes North will ultimately have something to do with Jon and while I’m sure there will be some political components at play, I think some of the more mystical aspects will be involved too (but I don’t know how that’ll work out). Dany and Jon both (as well as Bran) are characters deeply entwined with the undercurrents of magic pulsing through this world and all have visions. I think Dany, Jon, and Bran will have a crucial role to play in the second Long Night.
I suppose that’s where the books will diverge significantly from the show, in which Bran became a glorified bystander.
There seemed to be indications Bran and Brynden Rivers are the “wooden face, corpse white, a thousand red eyes, and a boy with a wolf’s head beside him” (quoted from linked article below) — this is a vision Melisandre sees in her flames and she believes these are the champions of The Great Other, the opposing force and enemy to R’hllor.
Here’s the full quote from her POV chapter in ADWD:
But apparently, something is amiss since, well, Bran becomes king.
But I do think Bran will have an actual role this time 😉
Anyway, check it out if you’re interested!
This older video from Alt Shift X offers some more book info on the Others and prophecies around them and the Long Night (what’s interesting is multiple places in this world had different names for the one who would bring the dawn to end the Long Night… kind of like real life religion!):
Oh wait, there’s this one! This one is more about the Others rather than the hero who stops the Long Night! (Btw, whenever we get that shot of Jon sharpening his sword in 201, dressed all in black and sitting under a tree with his 🙁 expression, he looks like an emo musician strumming his guitar.)
Of course, the fantastic Ninja warrior princess is the catalyst to it all!
But Jon already things of dragons in the books:
“If I had a dragon or three…”
I suppose it’s not about the NK, since there is none now in the books. It’s about numbers. You can root a large number of them with dragonfire and that would perhaps check a massive attack?
I will check it out. From what I can tell from book readers’ comments and book excerpts, it does seem like Bran will be actively involved in the ultimate showdown with the Others/WWs in the books, and that his ascension to king will not feel like it came out of the blue. Nor will Bran’s (in)actions and intentions be left so ambiguous, like in the show, so as to invite speculation that he was (a) some kind of Machiavellian puppet master who tweaked the course of events to ensure he’d wind up in power; or (b) despite foreknowledge or premonitions, allowed events to unfold, including the slaughter of thousands, without telling anyone; or (c) was content to be a disinterested, uncaring spectator.
On the show at least, he did not really have an active role in the endgame, hence the well-deserved title “Bran the Useless.”™️
™️ Mango or Mr. D 2019
HAH! Thank-you for my first laugh of the day! (It’s 6 PM….)
And pair that with Bran’s disinterested look….. XD;;;
(Sidenote: what’s true for pimples is not necessarily true for kings, D&D!)
But yes, I’m pretty certain (hope) Bran will have a far more meaningful role in the endgame rather than just sitting around. I did laugh out loud when, in the first episode, Sam finds Bran in the courtyard at night and Sam’s all, “Why are you out here?” and Bran’s like, “Waiting for an old friend.” Then, it’s daytime, Jaime arrives and Bran’s been waiting in the same spot for god knows how long.
If I had my way, Arya Stark would be TPTWP, YMBQ, QitN, Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, Hero of WF, the Last Hero, the Lord’s Chosen, and the Warrior of Light.
In all seriousness, I found it kind of odd – or telling – that Benioff & Weiss (in an “After the Episode” segment after S8e3 or in an interview), talked about how they “chose” Arya to be the one to kill the NK and thereby defeat the AotD, and that it “didn’t feel right” that Jon should be the one. Aside from the Night King being a show-only creation…
• I have to assume from their comments that GRRM did not provide any guidance as to how the WWs would be defeated and who, if anyone, would be the prophecied Azor Ahai reborn aka show! “Warrior of Light”/“Lord’s Chosen.”
• If Benioff & Weiss felt free to designate Arya, wouldn’t that necessarily mean GRRM had not yet figured out how the Others would be defeated? Or what role, if any, Jon would play?
• Alternatively, might it mean that GRRM didn’t want to reveal to the showrunners any more of the twists he has in store so he can save them for his books?
• With nothing to back it up 🙄, and probably no way we’ll ever know for sure, I’ve speculated that GRRM gave the showrunners the road map of events up to mid-S6 + a rough sketch of the story lines’ conclusions. It was up to them to fill in the narrative and logical gaps between where GRRM left them and the ultimate conclusion(s).
– Some fans felt like the final two seasons “checked off the boxes.”
– They’ve also expressed dissatisfaction with supposed half-baked subplots, insisting that GRRM would never have constructed them (e.g., S7 Wight Hunt Plan; S7 WF: LF vs Arya vs. Sansa; S7-S8 backfiring invasion strategies; Dany going full-on Mad Queen);
– They’ve criticized the “dumbing-down” of characters as compared to their books’ counterparts.
• Couldn’t some of these perceived problems be symptoms of the absence of organic, connective tissue between where GRRM’s outline left off, and the final destination(s) he’d imparted to the showrunners?
(To be cont. or deleted. Sorry so rambling.)
I was disappointed that D&D had access to the same materials we did (the books) and this is where all the lore and prophecy come from but not much (if anything) was addressed by the show-conclusion’s to this storyline. It sort of went out like, to quote Mr Derp, “a fart in the wind.” And I kind of have to agree with Alt Shift X when he said (re: all the evidence being the strongest for Dany or Jon to be Azor Ahai):
Without any offense to the character of Arya, their reasoning for picking Arya seemed a little lame to me :/ (“We hoped to kind of avoid the expected, and Jon Snow has always been the hero, the one who’s been the savior, but it just didn’t seem right to us, for this– for this moment”) Switching it from Jon to Arya only to avoid the expected.
What also struck me as odd is the show references Melisandre’s season 3 “Brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes, eyes you’ll shut forever,” prophecy, which they use to explain Arya being the one to kill the Night King in the episode (which is clever). However, D&D made the decision in season 6 for Arya to be the one to kill him, well after they wrote in that prophecy (which is a show-only prophecy, Melisandre and Arya haven’t crossed paths in the books).
As cool as the moment was, it does seem it was done to avoid the expected.
I don’t know if GRRM has that figured out yet. He did seem to expect D&D to end the series similar to how it’d end in the books in this interview with CBR in April 2019:
I think he gave them the skeleton of what he wanted to but none of the “organic, connective tissue” — which seems apt wording 🙂
By “interview with CBR”, I really mean *60 Minutes 😉
”…I was disappointed that D&D had access to the same materials we did (the books) and this is where all the lore and prophecy come from but not much (if anything) was addressed by the show-conclusion’s to this storyline.
And I kind of have to agree with Alt Shift X when he said (re: all the evidence being the strongest for Dany or Jon to be Azor Ahai):
It would be bad storytelling to spend the whole series focusing on Dany and Jon before going, “Hey, by the way, this guy– this guy Aegon, or this guy, f*ckin’, Ramsay Snow, he’s also a saviour of the world!”
Without any offense to the character of Arya, their reasoning for picking Arya seemed a little lame to me :/ (“We hoped to kind of avoid the expected, and Jon Snow has always been the hero, the one who’s been the savior, but it just didn’t seem right to us, for this– for this moment”) Switching it from Jon to Arya only to avoid the expected.
What also struck me as odd is the show references Melisandre’s season 3 “Brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes, eyes you’ll shut forever,” prophecy, which they use to explain Arya being the one to kill the Night King in the episode (which is clever). However, D&D made the decision in season 6 for Arya to be the one to kill him, well after they wrote in that prophecy…”
Thsnks. That’s the Benioff quote I was thinking of, i.e. choosing Arya to take down NK:
Benioff: “We hoped to kind of avoid the expected, and Jon Snow has always been the hero, the one who’s been the savior, but it just didn’t seem right to us, for this– for this moment.”
• First of all, this explanation (excuse?) comes perilously close to an admission of resorting to a dreaded deus ex machina. “Hoping to kind of avoid the expected” is kind of lame if the alternative chosen hasn’t been foreshadowed or set up.
c Dealing with the threat of NK & WWs was always a focus of Jon’s story since S1. No aspect of Arya’s pre-S8 story involved the WWs.
• What I’d really like to know is WHY “it just didn’t seem right” to them for Jon to be the one.
• As much as I’m an ASNAWP superfanboy, I’d also like to know WHY they chose Arya. If it was because she’s a fan favorite, or they figured Arya flying in from out of nowhere would be fist-pumping shock and awe moment for the audience, would be a lousy reason.
I have tried to reply to you! But I have displeased the Lord of Light as both attempts have disappeared into the beyond. I’m going to find something beloved to burn and try again!
Okay. It’s not working so here’s the essence of my comment: yes! I think it partly is because Arya’s a popular character but I think it’s mainly for surprise factor. Dan Weiss also spoke about how they hoped you’d forget Arya ran out of the castle toward some unknown goal (I tried to provide the exact quote but it’s pissing R’hllor off).
And now, as I pray to our most cherished Lord of Light, I beg of you… submit my comment to the world… I’ll burn any woods you want… faces or no… we have too many pine trees anyway…
The original Dan Weiss quote includes a pause word. Maybe R’hllor doesn’t like pause words??
I forgot! I was watching that “Others: What do we know about the White Walkers?” video and it mentions the Night‘s King. Not Night King! But it seems this is a different character (the illustration on its wiki page kind of looks like Jon Snow).
Here we go!
He lived during the Age of Heroes (shortly before the Long Night, I believe?) and was the 13th Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch:
From the wiki:
To defeat the Night‘s King, the Starks and wildlings joined to overthrow him — an alliance between Westerosi and wildlings that is not seen again until Jon becomes Lord Commander.
In the White Walkers video, Alt Shift X discusses the Night‘s King at aprox. 11:45 min in. He is the subject of present-day Westerosi horror stories, having fallen into notorious legend.
Oh, I really thought I had something there for a second, maybe they should have had him find the info in the stolen books to justify the theft but no. Oh well.
Interesting, I admit that I don’t know an awful lot about the origins of the WW, some lore folk have probably gone over it with a fine tooth comb. If what you say here is true, then the show origin of the WW isn’t actually true, perhaps it was the origin of the NK, who doesn’t exist in the books, and that’s the difference. But how do they reconcile the two in the new show, will they really go, ‘oh yeah that thing, it wasn’t true’. hmmm…
I agree with most of it, but I’m not writing it, so… Perhaps Jon will really give up his claim and Bran becomes king of the 6Ks.
Sansa will choose a man she wants this time, after so many fiancees and false husband. Wtf, what’s it worth being queen if you can’t choose your husband?
There’s also huge foreshadow for Sansa that she will bear bastard children. Her entire WoW released chapter is about that. Or perhaps it’s there just for Martin to subvert expectations once again, meaning that she will have a wedding with the man of her choosing after having been coerced to marry Tyrion.
Cersei and FAegon will be an attempt for Young Griff to become king without bloodshed. Marrying into the reigning family is a way to get hold of power peacefully, and compromise with all those who support the reigning dynasty. But as I said, I don’t think it’ll go that way. Cersei has to lose it all and witness her downfall before she dies.
I think there’s a good chance that in the books it’ll go as it did in the show. Tyrion will meet Daenerys; he’ll start seeking allies. Learning that Jon has taken back the North might lead him to seek for an alliance. Jon already wants the dragons. I don’t think that Daenerys will go to Dragonstone. It belongs to Stannis. Jon will get the dragonglass from Stannis, not Daenerys.
Valyria is in Essos, in its eastern parts. Tyrion crosses it to go to Daenerys. Ashai is where all the magic comes from. Melisandre is connected to Ashai somehow.
“But also we know Euron will be on the throne for a while. And LF storyline needs to lead somewhere, and that needs to be combined with all that.”
Will Euron become king? Why? you caught me completely unaware.
Sansa is prophecied to slay a giant. Is it LF? Is it Tyrion? Who knows. Rather LF.
In the quote I think you’re referring to (?), Jon seems to be thinking about the futility of his task leading the defense of the Wall against Mance’s attack but doesn’t appear to be seriously considering acquiring dragons. I don’t even think he knows about Daenerys’s dragons?
There is another dragon reference in ADWD but it’s kind of in the same vein — Jon being facetious:
I can’t remember exactly, but has Jon Con given up on fAegon/Dany marriage? I could see them considering a Cersei marriage instead. But either way, I don’t think he will be able to resist Arianne, and she will wreck all of those plans, and possibly be the younger and more beautiful woman.
It’s the taking all you hold dear bit that makes me doubt Arianne, like Dany she could take the throne, but is that all Cersei holds dear? Perhaps. Margaery has influence over Tommen (both still alive) and Brienne has Jaime, but if she only cares about the throne its Dany or Arianne.
I’m convinced Euron is either killing a dragon or controlling one. Instead of the NK getting it. He wants Dany, but he won’t get her, and by that time will Cersei even be relevant? He could treat with her, but the timeline feels off.
I think it will be a bit different in the books but that that’s too wonky for the show, with this I mean it make sense but it’s plottwist on plottwist and that will feel annoying on screen. For instance I don’t that the CotF are on the side of the humans. And for good reason, they made a pact with the first men. But when the Andals came, the first man could stay north, but the CotF need to flee further north (or other places), that means that even the first Men betrayed the CotF.
And I have a feeling that the CotF did some kind of magic to control the first man.
But who knows what Bran will found out. Isn’t it strange that CoTF in the books say that they want to help Bran to defeat the Others. But at the same time only show him unecesary information, like Benjen and Lyanna playing? And other stuff like that. And show that bloodsacrafices were made to the weirwood trees. And that Bran tasted the paste first as blood and bitter but soon after that as sweet, sounds like some kind of magic working on controlling Bran.
I also have many ideas who the WW are in the books, where they came from but I need to go to work, so that will be talked of after I finish work.
I somehow thing some sort of love will indeed follow Dany and Jon.
About the younger more beautiful woman I think that’s Brienne.
And I think Aegon will win against Cersei, simply because of 2 things. 1 the vision of the house of the undying doesn’t lie, meaning Aegon will be crowned and cheered on by the people of KL. And 2. Importance of side stories. There’s a reason why he implemented Dorne and Aegon and give it a slow burn storytelling, because it comes to fruition at the end of winds and is endgame. And if they are not defeating Cersei, their whole storyline would result to nothing. And also whole Varys story of 5 books and then six would result to nothing, with no ending, which for me is bad storytelling. (And didn’t GRRM already stated he didn’t like them omitting Aegon because he was important in his books for the end?)
But didn’t the house of the undying and Quiathe not tell that Dany will fight Stannis and Aegon, but there is no sign of any fight with Cersei. She is omitted in Quaithes warning, while Stannis is in it, even Jon is in it. Griffin is in it, Dorne, Quentyn, Victorion is in it. But no Cersei.
But I will need to look at that later today when I’m finishing work. Need to go now.
Brienne is interesting but while Brienne would be younger, she’s not really more beautiful (Cersei is famed for her beauty) so I don’t know if it’d be her and Brienne’s not a queen…
Although, the look on Cersei’s face if Brienne were the one — ohohoho ;D
I think that there’s something to Aegon being cheered by the people of KL but I’m still wondering how Maggy the Frog fits in.
I remember it about Lady Stoneheart but I can’t remember anything about Young Griff specifically. I wouldn’t be surprised. I think we’ve got the broad strokes for all of our mains and what will happen with them, but I think we’ll feel some differences brought on by characters like Aegon, Stannis, Stoneheart, etc.
In the passage featuring Dany’s visions from the House of the Undying, I don’t see any mention of fighting these guys necessarily (but I could be missing something). Although, Dany does seem to have visions associated with Viserys, future Rhaego, Rhaegar, Stannis, Jon, a cloth dragon, a large stone beast, she has a vision of the past that appear to include Rhaegar and his first son (fAegon if fAegon is Aegon), her childhood Braavosi house, and Aerys Targaryen.
Dany also sees the Red Wedding before it happens since these visions take place in A Clash of Kings?
Anyway, yes, I should get some sleep before I have to wake up to start my own day of more appointments 🙁
I forgot to add that you’re right — nothing seems to indicate Cersei.
With the Brienne thing, it would be a twist Cersei never saw coming, it would be inner beauty, something Cersei wouldn’t consider for a second. There is the mocking nickname ‘Brienne the Beauty’ as well. The actual phrasing of the prophecy is interesting “You’ll be queen, for a time. Then comes another, younger, more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear.” It doesn’t actually say another Queen, it just says another, and her ancestors were Kings.
This is total fanfic from me, but it would be the most satisfying option, Cersei would be spitting feathers over it. I always notice that GRRM uses the most beautiful names for Tarth, The Evenstar (Evenstar’s Daughter in Brienne’s case) Evenfall Hall, Galladon of Morne, the perfect Knight who killed a dragon with his sword ‘The Just Maid’. Forget YMBQ, Brienne is going to kill a dragon guys lol.
Adriana the only thing the extracts prove is that he can find ways to use them, not that he doesn’t want them.
Once he finds out that the dragons are real, he’ll want to have them on his side. This is what the text builds to. It’s still bits and pieces, but how long will it take before it becomes a reality? Tycho already assures him that he “doesn’t jape about dragons”. This establishes for Jon that dragons are not exactly mythical creatures, they can exist. So when solid information comes in, he’ll be ready to take the opportunity.
It’s a build-up to that moment.
Oooh, I see! Thank-you for explaining the interpretation (yes, you’re right, the text doesn’t specify ‘queen’ — I had that in my head for some reason).
Myself, I had viewed this passage as Tycho warning Jon to respect the power and wrath of dragons. I do think once Jon finds out about Daenerys Targaryen, he will likely ask for Daenerys’s aid against a common foe and may request an alliance, the reason he went to meet her for the first time in 703 on the show. Allying with disparate parties seems to be a theme in Jon’s arc (Stannis, the wildlings). When Maester Aemon learns of Daenerys and her dragons, he believes her help is needed to defend against the Long Night and that she is the Prince that was Promised. He entreats Sam to go to the Citadel to send a maester to her and bring her to Westeros.
First I’m going to react to new comments before I react to what I talked about this morning.
As my theory is that Bran will indeed become King, but not a king for the good guys in the books 😉 I don’t trust the CotF in the books. And it seems like they are trying to make Bran something they want. But maybe Bran will escape on time. Maybe that’s how the Hodor part will come into play in the books, not against the other’s but against the CotF.
Bran is the most difficult one for me to think of what his story can be and how it leads to the ending.
But I still think the CotF is still angry about men killing their kind, why would they ever want to help now. And what seems strange for me is that the books states that the pact happens first, then the Long night happens and that the Other’s came once the Long Night started already for a while. And it also strange that the long night made it happen that the lands of Asshai changed. And before that the seasons were normal. So what really happened in the long night. What event could have made things the way they are now. Changed seasons, other’s, the stories that the world was in complete darkness for years, and combine that with the stories the Dothraki tell about a second moon that seems to explode, and all the red comets flying around planetos. There are lot of theories on that, that I will talk about later.
And are we certain that 100% of the CotF were ok with the pact? Even Bran gave a notion that if the CotF think like man that they find strange that Leaf cried, man would be angry, man would seek revenge even after all this years. Bran tells us if the CotF would think like us, they would still plan their revenge on the race of men.
George is amazing with this, as you state like real religion.
Agree, she does. And maybe she seeks allies there first.
I think he only gave them the end points like: well Bran will be King, Sansa Queen, Arya will be Arya and goes west to seek what’s west. Jon will be exiled because he killed Dany, who burned Kings Landing to the ground.
D&D: But George, how will they go to that ending.
George: Haven’t you figure that out yet? read my first 5 books and you know.
D&D look at each other confused: Can’t you just give us a hint.
GRRM: No, well because you asked nicely, I will give you the twist of the books. Well Shireen will be burned alive by Mellisandre, Hodor means hold the door, the wall comes down somehow, and Jon and Dany will be a couple until Dany burn KL to the ground. Well it seems the jets will play now, have a good afternoon.
Oh, he’s very good! GRRM may not be great at getting the next book out but he’s pretty amazing at world-building. The universe he’s created is so deep, wide, and long — it feels real because it’s got so much history, all of these legendary figures, different periods, so much lore, mystery, prophecy, different belief systems, etc. and the same idea can be interpreted differently by various places he’s created throughout.
With the CotF, in that White Walkers video I linked above, it talks about the idea that the history our characters know in-universe might not be quite what happened. There’s so much mystery, especially with things like the CotF, the Others, Asshai, the Nightfort, the Wall, Valyria, the Kings of Winter, whatever is happening in the depths of Winterfell, and (for me), it does create a genuine sense of anxiety because we don’t really know what happened or how something as ancient as the CotF really feel. It is pretty shrouded in mystery. We only know what we’re told.
Just that the Others in the books are not dead is interesting. There’s also this theory that the first Long Night was ended (which seemed to have stretched worldwide) through negotiation between humanity and the Others, a peace treaty (which seems to be forgotten now — also explained in that linked video). So I wonder if the CotF were part of that if this is how the first Long Night was ended?
I find the Night‘s King figure in the books (the 13th Lord Commander whose seat was the Nightfort, took a corpse queen, reigned for 13 years, and is the source of horror stories in Westeros) a pretty terrifying figure. According to Old Nan, the Night‘s King was also a Brandon Stark.
Oh, going to try to sleep for real now! 😉
But didn’t George already state that the NK of his story is not the NK of the show. My guess is that Coldhands in the books is really the NK of his story.
I found it interesting that we know that something is hidden in the heart of winter but what?
We also know that after the CotF had their pact with the First Man that from the north the Other’s came only after the Long night started.
What if a faction of the cotF had disagree with the bigger group of the cotF, went north found a relic there that turned them into the Other’s and gave them the power to defeat the humans. Like they turned themselves into the other’s.
And I think that relic got there because of the long night itself, not the otherway around.
But what is the Long Night, I think this is more of a Astronomical factor. The second moon of Planetos was hit by a comet. That shifted not only the seasons, the debris falled to earth, as the Dothraki states, moon was egg and dragons came out of it. How does debris look when entering a planet orbit? Fire is all around the debris, meaning like dragons. What I think happened is that those debris landed on different places of planetos. The heart of Winter, the god’s eye, Asshai. Even Essos map looks like there was impact on land from something from the sky. the tale of Dorne (right name?). And with such impact, the sky will be filled with dust, that can even be there for years, and no sunlight can enter the planet on that part. Temperature lowers. And I think that was the long night, and in that long night, CotF (or maybe even some first man who knows) found a relic that came from the moon that became the heart of winter, that changed them. Even old nans word seems to confirm at least the chronically of it. She talked that first the long night came, tears freezing on your cheeks, mother’s smothering children rather than to see them starve. And then the others came. That means already a huge time has passed before the other’s came into the long night. they are not the cause of the Long Night, they are created by the long night.
This is a different character from that of the show — this Night’s King isn’t the leader of the Others/White Walkers/wights, etc. Instead, he’s a historical figure (the 13th Lord Commander whose seat was the Nightfort) who lived during the Age of Heroes. He’s not still alive, undead, mystical, or leading a hoard of zombies 🙂 I think he’s dead-dead, part of history and legend.
“the world was in complete darkness for years”
Whenever I see this, I think of the sea creatures that live in the deepest abyss of the sea, like, where the light won’t reach; they’re colorless and blind, lol.
People in Westeros must have been really, really white back then.
No worries about UVA/UVB. (and minus the expense of a good sunblock)
Adriana will like this.
(I’m a sun person myself)
I sure would!!!
(I live in a town outside of Calgary and the night shifts here at Safeway, Dominoes, Shopper’s Drugmart, Tim Horton’s, etc. are all so familiar with me doing my shopping after dark that when I’m forced — forced — to enter the hideous world of UVA drenched daylight, some employees have recognized me with an exclamation of, “But it’s daylight?”)
And ah yes, I’ve heard of your people before — those who voluntarily seek the sun 😉 I also hear rumours sunshine is needed to support life on earth but, per Arrested Development, “The jury is still out on science.”
Nice comparison to deep sea creatures! It’s like an alien world down there, it’s really fascinating.
I think Asshai will also become important. Especially why Asshai become the wasteland it is.
As for Euron. Damphair’s chapter. Damphair has a vision of the future where he sees Euron on the throne with a woman in chains that he controls. Many think that woman is Daenerys. Or one of the dragons.
To think of it, it makes perfect sense that Arianne is the younger more beautiful queen. We don’t get the prophecy until feast, why not in the first 3 books. And in that book Arianne is introduced, George thinks about the journey Arianne takes. And he makes in the same book the prophecy of Cersei. Maybe they are connected.
Yes too many options and too many prophecies that needs to connect somehow. And many storylines like Euron, Varys, LF etc need to be connected somehow. It’s very difficult to connect all together in a perfect picture.
But it all depends on what Cersei wants, if the thing she desire most are her children and Jaime, Brienne can be the last straw, and what if Maggie plays with Cersei, Brienne is called, Brienne the beauty.
But if it’s power, it’s either
Those are some nice points, Jenny opened me up to Brienne the Beauty and the wording of the prophecy. So I see how it can apply to Arianne, Brienne, or Dany.
I don’t know what it is that Cersei most wants, I think it’d be between Jaime and power? I think she does love her children in the books but in a very limited, narcissistic, extension-of-herself way. They’d perhaps be posting on r/raisedbynarcissists 😉 Though I wonder if they are most dear to her, I don’t think so. In the show, by the time Cersei was killed by the collapsing Red Keep, she had already lost her children. In the event during which she is cast down, Cersei loses her power through the city’s surrender and eventually Jaime and her own life when Dany democides King’s Landing.
Another theory I liked is that Elia knew about Lyanna, and was ok with it. Dany saw in the house of the undying Rheagar talking with Elia about the dragon needs 3 heads, to forfill the prophecy, I think that Elia believed it too and gave Rheagar a go for it, because she couldn’t give birth anymore.
I read the house of the undying prophecy again. I think Jon C is in it, as a stonemen at the sorrows: A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.
About Dany I think in the books she will do 2 things before going to westeros. She will liberate Volantis and the second thing. I think Tyrion will spill the beans that Illyrio is playing her, that Illyrio has given Aegon help to get the throne. She will deal with Illyrio. But how I don’t know depends where he is, will he go after Aegon or stay in Pentos.
Very interesting. That peace treaty is also interesting. Another theory I like is that the other’s are only living in heart of winter because there it’s cold enough and only come south because the weather becomes colder and they finally can come south to do what we humans do, hunts, take etc. And when it’s warmer they forced north again.
Another theory I like is that connected to the weirwood trees. 2 theories there are.
1. The Other’s come from the cut down weirwood trees.
2. The Weirwood trees live, and is some sort of warning system against the others. Meaning that the other’s don’t dare come where the weirwood trees are.
The trees stood shoulder to shoulder, like men in a battle line, all cloaked in white. bran I adwD
Another one is that the wall doesn’t come down because of the horn of winter. Some think the wall can be brough down at any time by the other’s but 2 magics keep the wall intact.
1. A faithful brother of the night’s watch.
2. A Stark in Winterfell.
If both aren’t in Winterfell the wall breaks. If this is true that can mean that at the end of Winds Stannis will be holding winterfell, And no true brother is a the night’s watch. Maybe another revolt.
Just a theory but I like it.
Here’s your younger, more beautiful queen.
Sorry read it wrong, too much reading of theories.
Well I won’t. Not perse the lack of light. But somehow that scares me, you don’t know what’s deep down there. I rather avoid it.
I think I found it. The younger more beautiful woman that cast her down takes away her Dornish Red. I think that will make her cry.
Would be something else, too read a sober Cersei.
But what I wonder is, maybe Cersei doesn’t know how to love because nobody though her that. Tywin was always the discipline guy, that’s how she raise her own children, except Joffrey. And maybe she is always afraid of losing them because of the prophecies. So she tried not to get too attached to her children.
I like this theory:
I wouldn’t mind if Arya has a stake in it.
”Another theory I liked is that Elia knew about Lyanna, and was ok with it. Dany saw in the house of the undying Rheagar talking with Elia about the dragon needs 3 heads, to forfill the prophecy, I think that Elia believed it too and gave Rheagar a go for it, because she couldn’t give birth anymore.”
Like (on the show), Selyse was okay with Stannis having sex with Melisandre?
What is it with these guys? Using religion and “prophecy” to get a free pass to cheat….
“But honey, the Lord told me to boink the babysitter.”
“Oh sweetheart I’m so happy!”
Yeah no. That doesn’t work.
Agree, it doesn’t work. But in the books Rheagar knew about the White Walker, he believed himself to be the Prince that was promised. But later he though that his Son Aegon was it, because Rheagar’s birth was missing the red comet, that Aegon birth had.
Rhaegar: Aegon. What better name for a king?
Elia: Will you make a song for him?
Rhaegar: He has a song. He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire. There must be one more. The dragon has three heads.
The dragon has 3 heads comes probably from Aegon the conqueror with his 2 siblings Visenya and Rheanys. (Aegon and Rheanys were his children with Elia). They had the 3 dragons, Balerion, Meraxes and Vhagar. (House Targaryen sigil become a three-headed dragon because of that.)
The problem become that Elia was sickly and weakened by the birth of Rheanys, and the birth of Aegon almost killed her. The Maester’s told Rheagar she could not bear any more children.
And that’s why he probably went after Lyanna, because he needed another daughter (which is funny because he got a son instead).
But many think Elia and Rheagar didn’t have a relationship like for instance Ned and Cat, not really love. They had a good bond but more of a friend-like bond, and that for the rest their marriage was just political. Little bit like Robert and Cersei but then with understanding of each other. And some believed Elia also believed the prophecies at how she talked to Rheagar after the birth of Aegon. And it make more sense why Rheagar went that far with Lyanna even when he knew the consequences, after what else we knew about him, because he was a smart caring man. And another thing that makes it almost clear is that Elia knew she couldn’t give birth anymore after Aegon but still Rheagar talked about that he needed a third child, and she didn’t seem shocked about it, Rheagar was open about his intentions.
Thanks! I’m going to reply tomorrow night (about 24 hrs from now) — it’s been a day and tomorrow, it’ll be another …. day 😵😵😵😵😵
Where is that from?? She’s gorgeous as a queen!
I’d go with Adriana on this one. It was polygamy on Rhaegar’s part rather than cheating or dishonesty. Lyanna probably knew what she was getting herself into. This probably means that she knew too, but she wanted to escape Robert and apparently she was very much in love with Rhaegar. By leaving with Rhaegar -I suppose the “abduction” is eloping in reality- she ignored all westerosi conventions. It was her people (family and her family’s friends) that were offended by what Rhaegar and Lyanna did but the implicated parties, Rhaegar, Lyanna, Elia, were all in on it.
In any medieval society physical inability is a reason for divorce. Inability to bear childern -whether for men or women- is a reason for the spouse to ask either divorce or annulment. So is denial of consummation (e.g. in cases where one of the spouses is devoted to god). In Rhaegar’s case I suppose that Martin will tell us in the next book if it’s annulment, divorce or polygamy.
So Rhaegar wasn’t doing anything out of the ordinary here, no matter how much many call him out for his horrible treatment of Elia. The problem is, I suppose, he took little trouble to explain to the lords and claim what he wanted. He wanted a woman that belonged to someone else, but that wasn’t a real problem. The privileges of being king is that you can negotiate your way out of such situations because you hold the resources. He could explain to the Starks first, and then to the Baratheons, whom he’d reimburse with anything they wanted, lands, castles, titles. But nope. Didn’t happen, and truthfully speaking, his dad was kind of a lunatic, so he didn’t have the support of his own family in the first place.
What all this shows imho is that the Targaryens had little to do with their own subjects. The doctrine of Targaryen exceptionalism that they instituted by law effectively kept them away from and above the entire Westerosi society, as if they were claiming that they were gods in reality. This was in line with their Valyrian traditions but had little to do with Westeros and as a trait of “imperial ideology” it was bound to be despised by those same lords, whose support they needed for ruling in the first place. What the lords saw in this case was once again that their charismatic prince, himself a product of incest founded on the hated exceptionalism doctrine, had little consideration, respect and love for his own subjects.
The country was unified with dragons; take that away, and it’s only a matter of time for the country to unify again for overthrowing the reigning dynasty. As Tyrion says, the last dragon had the size of a dog.
I agree with this. They all were in on it. Rheagar, Lyanna and also Elia. But I think his though he was Azor Ahai reborn was part of it. He needed 3 children to forfill the prohecy. (which is strange because Jon doesn’t have 3 children).
There was no cheating in this case.
”As Tyrion says, the last dragon had the size of a dog.”
Sandor = The Last Dragon confirmed!
I saw on-line in August about Ace Comic con and thought wow that’s literally just a hop skip and jump away from the airport hotel I’ll be staying at. I must say, had it been 5 years ago I’d have jumped at the chance to see “Jon Snow” in person but alas I am feeling my age these days, and of course the novelty has worn off tbf. Always wrong timing it seems. I did have tickets to Djawadi’s concert a few years back but missed out on that due to a date change (went from weekend to a weekday) that I was not made aware of until it was too late.
Oh that’s a shame about the concert, did you get a refund for your ticket? I’d love to go to one of those, I always wanted to go to see Howard Shore, but then I’d probably just cry throughout the whole thing.
I think she can love, but in a very possessive and controlling way. Her children’s appearance and behaviour reflects on her and the family, so she does everything she can to make Tommen strong like Tywin, and when Myrcella
Same with Jaime, when he doesn’t look like her, it’s over unless she can use him.
She was infatuated with Rhaegar based on his appearance, and even liked Robert until he called her Lyanna, she’s rather surface level in the love department. Her love of Rhaegar was similar to Robert’s love of Lyanna – practically imaginary. They both lost out on their first choice, and built them up to be more than they were. They never let it go and were then miserable together, but I think they would have been miserable with Rhaegar and Lyanna as well.
I also think she was excessively concerned about the lives of her children (not in the normal way) because of the prophecy, as each one dies it’s like an hourglass counting down to her own death.
I feel there have been strong reasons given in the past for why Arya was chosen to kill the Night King and why it works, but I’ll briefly reiterate here. First of all though, D&D don’t always give full, complete reasons for why they do things. Few writers do for the sake of leaving things open for discussion and interpretation. So when they say they chose Arya because Jon was too expected, that’s not the only reason..
So, besides the reasons that D&D gave, here are additional points for why it works story-wise:
– Arya has spent a great deal of her arc learning how to fight, and this had to pay off in a big way. Knocking off some wights or a WW general isn’t enough (heck, even Sam killed a WW, as did Meera). Any character with Valyrian steel could kill a WW, so it’s not unique or special enough as an accomplishment.
– While Arya was not directly involved in the WW plot, the NK is an embodiment of death, which is a very strong theme in Arya’s story. So they are strongly linked thematically.
– For the umpteenth time, Jon being AA or TPTWP has nothing to do with being a fighter, or striking the killing blow against a “big bad”; it’s about being a leader and a uniter.
– All the main/principal characters of the story need to make a big impact on the overall plot. Here I am considering George’s “big 5”, or what should perhaps now be “big 6” to include Sansa (Jon, Dany, Arya, Sansa, Bran, Tyrion). It should be pretty obvious what that impact is for all of them, but for Arya specifically.. well, everyone would be dead if it wasn’t for her.
While there is no NK as such in the books, I can imagine George telling D&D something like, “Arya will leave the FM, return to Westeros and reunite with her family and given all her training will play a pivotal and crucial part in defeating the AotD.” George is building her up for big things in the books as well, so while it won’t happen exactly as it does in the show, the spirit of it is there.
Honestly it puzzles me why some people still seem to have trouble with how killing the NK fits into Arya’s arc. The three main Stark children are all on a hero’s journey of sorts. This is foreshadowed in the books and in the show. This was Arya’s moment in the show. That being said, I’m sure that Arya being such a hugely popular character factored into the decision by D&D as well, as they knew it would be a crowd-pleasing moment. But there is enough character and story reason behind it to make it work.
Before I say anything else, I will say that I was pretty much Ok with Arya killing the NK, he’s made up so whatever. I had an issue with their use of Jon, sticking the best swordsman in Westeros on a dragon (who was sat on a wall doing nothing) will never make sense to me, but that’s a separate thing.
In the book I have to imagine that she will use the face changing power? That is the only thing that puzzled me about her killing the NK in S8, she’s an assassin sure, but what was the point in her specific skillset in the end? Nothing really, I assume GRRM is working towards her using that in some way. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if he did actually pull the ‘Arya kills Cersei with Jaime’s face’ theory. Or she uses a WW face, why not? lol
With Regards to TPTWP, I’m not sure that we will ever know, I think we could be left with a few possibilities to argue for, or it could be a few people combined. The only reason it felt odd to me with Jon, is that she show mentioned Lightbringer, multiple times and nothing came of it. If they had positioned the Catspaw dagger as Lightbringer, I wouldn’t question it. The existence of that sword and the NK in the same story points toward its wielder striking the killing blow, and we just never heard about it again so both parts of the prophecy remain unanswered. I’m still holding out for Widows Wail and Oathkeeper being Lightbringer, but again, perhaps it will be ambiguous, it could even be the dragons.
Sure, having Jon on the ground doing more sword fighting would have been nice. I agree with that. They could have even had him in a fight with the NK, but getting beaten to near-death before Arya comes in for the killing blow (emphasizing in a different way that Jon would have been unable to defeat him). I think that’s another element that makes it work so well for me actually — the NK knows Jon and that he’s a threat, and he knows Bran, and he knows that Dany’s dragons will be ineffective. What he doesn’t know is anything about Arya. i.e. He would always be able to see Jon coming.
In the books, yes that’s a possibility that she’ll use her face-changing skills, but even more likely I would say is her warging. Remember that in the books, she’s a very powerful warg.
The point of her face-changing skills in the show was more about her struggle with identity and becoming No One, as well as being able to strike a few names off her list. I must disagree, however, that she will kill Cersei using Jaime’s face in the books. It’s way too predictable for George, and if it did happen, it would have been too big of a plot point for the show to ignore. I don’t think there’s any chance of that happening in the books, and I’m glad for that.
There was a video awhile back going deep into the Lightbringer prophecy in the books that theorized that Lightbringer was not a weapon, but a person. Probably the same as AA/TPTWP, and that this person would bring the dawn by uniting and leading people. Prophesies in ASOIAF are vague and rarely (if ever) play out literally. I can’t remember whether it was History of Westeros, In Deep Geek, or some other channel.. In any case, seeing the Catspaw Dagger in the old book Sam reads in season 7 was plenty good enough for me as foreshadowing on the show (which has largely downplayed prophesies and magic relative to the books).
Perhaps I’m giving people too much credit, but I get the feeling that some people would have been less upset about the Jon thing, if he had been slightly more effectual in the battle. Considering he has been the main driving force against the WW for 8 seasons, it felt so wrong to sideline him like that (and for the whole season really). He didn’t need to strike the killing blow (for me) but it was too far the other way. Of course there are those who think he was AA and had to kill the NK, and any other plot was bad, but it might have been a bit easier to bear, if he had some greater impact. People were real mad about him yelling at that dragon.
It’s Ok, I don’t actually think she will kill Cersei with his face, but I am open to the possibility, Arya is one character with huge ??? for me. Part of that is down to S7, omg I hated that Winterfell plot and can barely remember it now. Thinking about it, that was the resolution to her face changing wasn’t it? On a thematic level at least. For me it was the worst part of S7 (sorry Ten Bears) so I forget about it sometimes. I do like the plot about her losing her identity, and gradually finding it again, but I wasn’t a fan of the antagonistic Waif and S7…..
I do wonder how she will use her warging abilities in the book. What if, Jon wargs into Ghost (before resurrection) and he meets Arya while she is warging into Nymeria, I honestly think I’d cry, because she would just know.
The prequel show is about the Long Night, will that include some of the prophecy stuff maybe? Could we find out more about AA/TPTWP? I’d be interested in that. There are many ways it could go, but I don’t think we will ever get a concrete answer. I don’t think its going to be Jon fulfilling the prophecies, there must be a reason why Dany also fits the bill, and Aemon thought it was her. Plus the comet appeared after the dragons, perhaps it’s Jon and she is Lightbringer? Or the two of them combined? The video could have been an Alt Shift X video, it normally is.
Don’t be sorry. I didn’t like the S7 Arya vs. Sansa vs. LF WF plot either.
”For me it was the worst part of S7 (sorry Ten Bears) so I forget about it sometimes.”
Don’t be sorry. I didn’t like S7 Arya-LF-Sansa WF either.
I have read the arguments in favor of Arya being the one to kill the Night King and I can appreciate them. I can certainly appreciate that others found this twist enjoyable! For me, it did feel anticlimactic given how this was the focus of Jon’s storyline since season 1. That’s not to say I don’t accept the story as portrayed, I do — it’s canon, it’s the story we’ve been told.
As for D&D’s reasons, I can only go off of what they’ve said and the “avoid the expected” was (to my knowledge) the only reason they gave as to why they chose Arya. If they had any other reason, I don’t know it because I haven’t seen it mentioned.
Death is a strong theme in Arya’s storyline but one of the reasons it felt a little out of nowhere for me is because this is first time Arya has even seen the undead, let alone fought them, and she appears out of the mist to kill the Night King in the same episode she confronts the threat for the first time. Maybe if there’d more connection between the Night King and Arya.
Meanwhile, this has been the driving force of Jon’s storyline since season 1 and he didn’t really have much to do in the battle his storyline has spent eight years preparing for (although, I thought him and Dany strafing wights alongside each other was cool).
No, Jon doesn’t have to be the one who strikes the killing blow but in the final battle, after this being the focus of his storyline since season 1/book 1, he just killed a bunch of wights and screamed at a dragon. I wish he, Bran, Dany, and the associated prophecies had more of a role to play.
As for the show’s foreshadowing of Arya killing the NK. I know they had season 3’s “in that darkness, eyes staring at me: Brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes — eyes you’ll shut forever,” prophecy — but this prophecy was written well before D&D said they made the decision to have Arya be the one to kill the Night King three years prior (so around seaosn 5, season 6?):
D&D met with GRRM at the end of season 3 to get the skeleton of his final outline for the conclusion of the story. However, based on this quote, D&D made the decision for Arya to be the one to kill the Night King much later, in season 5/6, based off of a show-only prophecy Melisandre makes in season 3.
I hesitate to comment on the books because I don’t know where this is going. In the books, the Others aren’t actually dead. Maybe Arya does have a role to play but I hope Jon/Bran/Dany’s roles are more significant since they are so strongly connected to the associated prophecies.
Maybe it’s a dragon?
Didn’t the night watch vows state as the brother’s of the night watch as sword and shields?
But I wonder which is the real Azor Ahai reborn. Dany and Jon both lack the comet part with their real birth. Dany misses the salt part when the dragons were born. They all seem to miss a part of the prophecy.
Another theory is that it’s Bran. And he will wake up dragons under Winterfell. (But Bran seems more the Last Hero reborn, not Azor Ahai reborn).
But what if it’s Jaime. Cersei can be Nissa Nissa.
And are we even certain that how the prohecy goes it really will happen. We already got 3 different versions of the prohecy. The one from Aemon, the one from Mellisandre and the one from Marwyn. Which I believe the last one has bigger chance of having the right prophecy because maybe it’s stored in Oldtown.
And do we know for certain that Azor Ahai reborn will be a good guy, maybe it will be a bad guy that somehow fits the bill.
But I think for the books is that we still know too little, to make a just assessment about who Azor Ahai reborn is. We need to know more. For instance how the WW were come to exist in the books, which I think will be different than the show. Not 100% different I think there will be a truth in what the show gave us. But the show already changed one big thing. In the books Darkness came first (which even changed the seasons) then the WW came. The show did the other way around. My guess is still that they came from the CotF not men in the books.
We also need to know if Azor Ahai was a good or evil man. Which can change our perspective what kind of person azor Ahai could refer too.
And I think we need to know for certain who the CotF really are.
And Mel’s chapter in DwD doesn’t give me a nice feeling about who the children of the forest are.
I forgot to add that I agree with you, maybe the dawn is not defeating the other’s but in fact defeating the long night (Which was just darkness for years). And it was all about uniting all.
I tried to reply to the rest of your comment but it got caught by the spam filter… I’ll try again a little later.
I agree with you, even a small skirmish battle like Dany got with the wights would be enough.
As for the books, who knows where they are going. We know from GRRM own mouth that his sixth books would give lot’s of information about the Other’s and we will visit the land of always winter in that book.
This was an argument I tried to use myself in order to reconcile myself with this conclusion. However, being AA/TPTWP and its really specific requirements aren’t necessary to being the person who brought these people together. These alliances were formed when everybody thought Jon was just Ned Stark’s bastard son with no magic involved in the formation of these unions. They were formed based on the experiences, relationships, sacrifices, and actions of all parties involved.
It sort of seems the conditions of being TPTWP ended up contributing to Dany’s dark turn: Jon coming from the line of Aerys and Rhaella and being the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark (the prophecy’s “a song of ice and fire”) helped push Dany off the deep end. It would have been better if Jon really was just Ned Stark’s bastard son.
Yeah, based on what we saw on the show, it seems that this was all that was necessary.
Which is partly what makes this so deflating to me: all the surrounding prophecy and mysteries of the White Walkers, what they want, who they are, why they want to destroy humanity, why all these various religions had an AA of their own, why they want to bring the Long Night, what’s the deal with Lightbringer, why the Lord of Light wanted Jon back, the visions of the Red Priestesses, Melisandre’s Prince hopping and her visions — none of this seemed to amount to much after all the investment involved in these narratives…
Yeah, I have no idea what’s going to happen and there’s so much lore and mystery involved. It seems to go deeper and deeper and deeper, with all of these religions having a different idea on how the first Long Night ended and who will end the second. It almost feels biblical in a sense. I like Alt Shift X’s idea of a negotiation ending the Long Night through compromise for the sake of peace.
Yeah, I think you’ve managed to articulate Cersei far better than I could ever hope for! And her love for her children feels very narcissistic, self-involved, and controlling. I think she loves as far as she can understand love, which is a reflection of herself.
It seems, by the end of ADWD, Tyrion is on Dany’s side. Do you see it that way?
Ooooh, I really really like this one. Like two-factor authentication (but holy f**k, do I despise two-factor authentication — especially when I use Find My Phone to find my phone and it’s asking me to verify myself… with a code sent to my phone!!!A@$%!). Or rather, like a two-component activation system. The magic in the Wall holds up as long as there is a Stark in Winterfell and a true brother on the Wall. Yeah.
It’d be a cool reason for why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell!
But I have a feeling that Winds will clear almost everything up. Who the CotF are, what the Other’s really are and want. What the long night really was, I think we will get a Bran chapter of that. And it will be a plot-twist. I think we get a chapter where the long night is already 2 or 3 years busy, and Bran is: Where are the others? I don’t understand, it’s just darkness. Didn’t the others not bring the long night? And that we learn something there, that the other’s are not the cause of the long night, they are a symptom of it.
Maybe the change from CotF/Human to Other was not a willing thing but happened because they were in the wrong place in the wrong time. And has something to do what is at the heart of Winter.
I still cling to the second moon theory. It would give a scientific explanation partly and partly magic. And it make sense when the first long night was very close in time with the event that happened around Asshai that turned the lands there to the shadow land. (or was it around the time of the doom of Valyria? Can’t remember completely)
But I’m ok with every direction the books take, except the following, that the WW never existed in the past, but that either bloodraven or Euron uses some magic to create them. I would hate that. Some think it will be something like that, but I hope that will not be true.
I forgot to add (after I hastily rewrote my comment in an effort to bypass the spam filters. It seems it’s my turn with the Lord of Light after he so graciously granted textual form to my comments last week) that I want Arya to have her moment and a big impact on this story too! I’m not at all opposed to that, I love Arya! 🙂 She should get that! (She’s a big deal, especially since she is of the elite Faceless Men and has had a huge range of experiences with so many different kinds of people!) And I agree she is one of the Big Six (and the Top Four, per the traditional fan favourites over the years consisting of Tyrion, Dany, Jon and Arya). My only issue is that the resolution to the Night King and the Long Night itself seemed ho-hum (to me! I’m only speaking for myself!) — but it’s not about the character of Arya, just rather how it was done.
It would be REALLY cool if, in the books, she had a part to play in this storyline! Also, I’d especially love it if it enabled a reunion with Jon…
No I don’t see it that way that he is on Dany’s side. I see it as Tyrion is on Tyrion’s side. He finds a way that gives himself the best chance of surviving. As he stated in his last chapter of Dance (or the one before that), they are on the losing side of this battle and second he was being a slave. Dying as a slave is not what Tyrion wants for himself. He want to survive and be a free man. He went to the second sons to make certain of that.
He will be on Dany’s side because that is the best chance he has of surviving. So he is on Dany’s side, not for her great ideals, but because he wants to survive. Which I also fear he will be the undoing of Baristan. Baristan will never concede with working with Tyrion.
The thing is with book Tyrion, that at the moment you think he has the right heart and advice for people, like with Aegon. His advice to Aegon felt sincere to me at the moment, like Tyrion really wanted to help Aegon. Then later we found out that that was a bait he gave Aegon. He didn’t give that information to Aegon because he liked Aegon, but my guess is that Aegon with the GC would make Tyrion absolete/ redundant (which is the right word?). He made certain that now he can be of service to Dany. And I think the same thing will happen in winds. He will play the game, and he will gain excess to the position of hand of the queen.
And agree, I like that theory. But I think that to make it work another action needed to be done, the horn need to be blown. What if a stark in winterfell and a faithful brother of the nights watch are 2 locks. And the horn is the handle. When the locks are open, pull the handle.
But for me the part of no Stark in Winterfell is easily put in context, but no faithful brother not, there are still faithful brother’s at the NW. Maybe another mutiny will be there. Or maybe something kills all the brothers of the NW.
I also like that the weirwood tree is in fact a security system against the Other’s. Especially when Mel tore them down with Stannis.
But what I don’t understand is why the Other’s just don’t pass beside the Gorge.
Those are really cool things to think about, especially with the second moon. I should read more about the heart of Winter. The more you talk about it, the more I want to dig into theories surrounding it.
What do you mean by change? That the Others originated from the CotF/humans?
I’m about to drop dead from tired but I’ll ruminate on this and reply back later!
2-hr sleep nights, man, 2-hr sleep nights… It’s like I’m in school again…
Lightbringer is the literal translation of Lucifer. (I am not doing the walk of shame for the l-word). Lucifer is bad, bad news. The prophecies are confused in the books by their various interpretor, but it still remains to be seen if Jon is TPTWP and if TPTWP is one of the dragonriders. (and if another one is the Lightbringer then the third is …?)
Anyway, anybody thought of the Strangler? It a poison used a lot by the Faceless men. Just saying…
Yeah, I think that’s a fair point that there might not have been as much upset if Jon played a bigger part in the battle. Then again, without his leadership and him uniting people together, the WW would have won, so from that perspective he had a huge part to play in defeating the NK. Perhaps that wasn’t enough or clear enough to people maybe? But yes, I would have loved a climactic sword fight for Jon.
I was also not a big fan of the season 7 WF plot line. I get what they were going for with it (and it makes sense and could have made for some great character moments), but it was just not executed that well. Again, I can imagine GRRM told D&D a rough idea of how Arya and Sansa’s reunion will go in the books (tense and strained at first, but they will resolve their differences), and this is how D&D chose to interpret that unfortunately.
My theory is that when the second moon hit planetos some magical relic hit the earth into the heart of winter. Or maybe it was always there but was activated. This theory only works if the others came from the cotf. We know that the children of the forest fled more north than before. What if part of the cotf fled toward the heart of winter,maybe because they were not agreeing with the pact. Or they missed the pact all together because they fled to far. What if this relic is more of a excelerant in evolution. Or maybe there is no relic at all but the climate that far north change them. Why I think the cotf and the others could have had the same ancestors is a bit like us humans. We changed depends on where we live. It takes centuries to make a real difference of course. But I have a feeling this also work with the children of the forest.
The cotf live in earthly and green places. They are some magical creatures that we don’t really know their magic is about but my guess is magic of elements. And I think that’s how they change with their evolution. Earthly ground the will be like we saw them already. Plant like. In the water maybe more sea creature like. In cold places, and I mean real cold like the heart of winter I think they became the white walker because that’s their evolutionary way to become in such a climate.
But what I think also happened is what the long night was, was also comparable with what we on earth has as nuclear fallout. It change us rabitly. But I think what happen in the long night was something like that but then with magic. It ascelerated it. And the cotf were consumed with the hate they have from humans, that killed them. In that change that was taken into account. Their magic changed to darker magic. Reviving the dead etc.
Why I also think something like this need to have happened is the secrecy George has with the heart of winter. When bran was in a coma. (which somehow bran forgot all about those dreams he had then). Bran visit many places. We knew they were real time because we saw his siblings in real time. He went east. We saw the dragons alive in asshai. He didn’t make it a secret dragons are alive there. Then he went north. He visit the heart of winter. Bran saw something there that scared him and he woke up.
I think that was not just seeing white walkers. Because we already saw them earlier in the prologue. He wouldn’t make that such a secret. And give away dragons are alive in the far east. So what is it that bran saw.
What 2 hours of sleep? Are you 20? If I do that one time I will fall a sleep on work.
This was a reason they mentioned in the BTS video, but like I said, they’re not going to mention all the reasons, or their entire thought process that went into that choice. They consistently play coy with “explaining” plot points and choices and have been known to give ambiguous answers. Clearly their intention is to let fans piece together story points through discussion and interpretation. So just because they mentioned a reason, doesn’t mean there aren’t more reasons that they aren’t giving.
As I’ve said many times before, it is not a requirement of foreshadowing that the author needs to come up with it beforehand. George has done this too in the books. The creative process is not linear, especially in an expansive story as this one. This is actually one of the joys of the creative process — discovering things you didn’t intend after the fact. Whether that’s musical ideas/themes in music, or plot threads in writing, or hidden patterns in visual art, etc. the discovery process as you work on something is hugely rewarding. And that’s certainly true for George “the gardener” Martin as he so often classifies himself as an author.
In retrospect, maybe it was a mistake for D&D to admit this since people can’t seem to separate the creative process from the story, but that does not make this prophecy invalid in any way.
“In any case, seeing the Catspaw Dagger in the old book Sam reads in season 7 was plenty good enough for me as foreshadowing on the show (which has largely downplayed prophesies and magic relative to the books).”
There’s so much going on with this dagger though. Even though they stated (and I believe them) that they have been preparing this since season 6, which shows Arya’s training to become a Ninja assassin, it’s so much they have’t explained, and the fact that they used this dragger while they let all the other issues connected with it fall was for me very disappointing. Namely:
It was clearly a Targaryen dagger (I wonder if they took this clue from Martin). As such, it was probably part of the spoils of the Trident, where Jon’s father was killed by Robert.
It’s the dagger used against Bran. Bran’s second assassination attempt was never addressed. Shouldn’t it have been? Just for closure?
There’s a theme of “justice” being handed out to those who harmed the Starks. LF gives the dagger to Bran, and he gives it to Arya. Arya is the executioner of LF. But the Starks did have more enemies than just LF, namely, the Lannisters. (it would have been extreme poetic licence to have Jon kill Daenerys with it; Dany was never portrayed as harming the Starks)
Not to mention that a Targaryen (fire) knife entinguishing the Night (ice) King does have in the ASOIAF context magical/mystical elements.
(So perhaps in the end if ice dies with this knife perhaps also fire should die with it; it’s symmetrical and Jon Snow being the connecting factor since he is both ice and fire?)
Not addressing any of these issues personally let me down hugely while I did like the Arya moment veeeeery much. Perhaps it’s the only oh-shit moment I liked. (all the others were rather predictable).
As for Jon, eh, no, that moment against the dragon was actually very bad narratively, structurally, utterly meaningless. Like, what, the hero of the story is prepared to die, meaning, not continue the fight if he doesn’t win? I get the frustration, but it could have been a frustration while fighting half a dozen Whites and seeing Theon die and his little brother defenseless. Why did it have to be shouting at an undead dragon behind a wall?
It’s as if they meant to discard their main protagonist, strip him of everything inside the narrative.
But yes, I forget, it wasn’t about Jon Snow, whose circumstances of birth and upbringing and CV are the theme of a 5volume book in which the series was based.
It was about Dany, the dragon lady. (why winge about it?)
(don’t mind my bitterness please).
Right, but that’s why Jon is AA/TPTWP. In other words, AA isn’t Jon, Jon is AA if you catch my meaning. The LoL brought Jon back because he’s the only one that could unite everyone together, and thus he is AA/TPTWP.
I definitely appreciate your take on it, and we seem to agree on some issues (Jon should have had a bigger role in the actual battle). For me though, the resolution to the WW plot was fine in the show. I never really liked some of the elaborate theories about how the NK would be defeated, or how it should have been stretched out multiple episodes, or how the NK should have been the last big bad. I think that how the WW were used in the show to force everyone to unite in order to survive, but then go right back to dealing with the corruption of humanity fit the theme of the show well.
I would have loved more background on the dagger as well, given its importance. Heck, maybe a scene between Arya, Sansa, and Bran after the fall of the NK where Bran could fill in some details on its history. And then Arya, in a nod to the book, would name the dagger Dark Sister (who she already name-dropped in season 2). That’s me fanboying a little, but.. yeah.. 🙂
Jon screaming at the dragon was strange, I’ll give you that. I mean.. I get it. He’s frustrated, things are bleak, etc. I guess I don’t hate it as much as some people, but I could have done without it.
I have a reply awaiting moderation.. Hopefully it shows up soon. 🙂
Jon wasn’t sidelined during the Long Night, though. He rode a dragon into battle, fought the Night King with Danerys on dragonback, killed many wights on the ground, etc. I mean, knocking the Night King off Viserion was integral to his defeat.
Phew, I was nervous for a second lol.
You have summarised my thoughts perfectly. I get Jon on a dragon, but we got Jon on a dragon sat on the battlements for 20 minutes, and then floundering for the rest of the episode, the rest of the season even. He was been built up to be this great hero, Rhaegars son and it amounted to….not much, which is fine, but let him have a little moment in the battle. In S8, he had no agency, he was just being swept along, he was left with no choice when he killed Dany (I do take issue with that, but that’s about her not him) and in a way I do like that, he had one goal in his life, but after that everything was out of control, that makes his ending so sad to me, it was taken out of his hands, but he still had to be the one to kill her.
I’m probably setting myself up for a huge disappointment here, but maaaybe we will get some lore in the prequel show?
In S7, I felt that the only important storyline was Jon/Dany, and the weakening of her forces. It was so important that all of the other storylines had to be put on pause while it was dealt with. So for me, S7 was an exercise in plate spinning, I would have honestly given them a few episodes off. I don’t talk about ‘Beyond the Wall’ for my own health.
I think (?) I see what you’re saying and I like the idea of it but the thing that stalls me is that prophecy is a prediction so it determines the ‘who’ rather than the ‘who’ determining it. For Jon to be AA rather than for AA to be Jon (meaning, Jon determines AA rather than AA determining Jon?), this turns AA from a prophecy to something Jon … created… in a way? Or started?
If Jon had carried through his theme of negotiation and unification, being the only one to make peace with the Others because of something AA’s conditions or being this figure gave him a special property that differetiated him from anyone else, yes, I think this would be a manifestation of AA because AA had something to do with enabling this final, crucial act.
But since Jon’s actions are not due to any predetermination from the prophecy (ie. “ice and fire” blood), it sort of makes AA invalid because it AA had nothing to do with Jon’s choices and experiences. AA had all these crazy specifications and … to what end? Instead, it’s a set of non-prophecized choices Jon makes of his own volition and experiences he happens to undergo that help him see the need for and become the bridge that unites dispirate groups.
I could see this as a starting point for a new prophecy if Jon had fallen into legend as this notable unifying figure. How it’d determine another unifying figure if that person met the requirements of X, Y, and Z.
But I agree, I think Jon turned out to be the only one who could unite all of these people and maybe that is why the Lord of Light brought Jon back. Jon may have been AA but through his efforts to unify people, that itself had little to do with AA.
That’s always a possibility because it’s true we’re not inside their heads but I’d hope, in that case, they’d have picked a more solid reason to share than the one they gave, which seemed flimsy to me :/
As to the elaborate theories, I can understand that. I think I just wanted something more… significant(?) to come of it rather than a 6-hour night which stays contained to the North, never makes it south, and addresses some of the set-up around it into which so much was poured.
That is totally GRRM’s style! But as I understand foreshadowing, it’s a piece the author puts in the narrative meant to intentionally hint at a certain event still to happen. As such, I think the writer needs to have an idea of what this hint will lead to at the time they plant it or it’s not really foreshadowing but something else. Going back and deciding to use a piece later to hint at this future event, some time after it’s written, is more like retrofitting (?) I believe.
Yes, GRRM has often spoken about the discovery process but I think he still has an idea of what he’s “planting” (“they know if they planted a fantasy seed or a mystery seed or whatever”). It’s no road map by any means and there’s still room for those unknown “branches” to grow but I think he has an idea of where he’s going at the time when he drops in clues:
On that note, I think GRRM had a better time of setting up than bringing everything together. I don’t know if he knows how to, erm, “harvest” all these seeds and put them in a “bouquet” (I’ll stop ;D).
Oh, no, not anymore! I left school several years ago! But it’s like, when I’m dealing with a stressful project that presents obstacles I can’t think of solutions to, I’ll get really upset, stressed out, and depressed and will resist sleep until I have a solution-in-the-wings to be tried. So when sleep becomes more and more urgent (ie. I can’t stay awake any longer), I’ll drop off for a bit but the problems will wake me up after 1-2 hours and I’ll resume work. But of course, it’s a vicious cycle because with impaired sleep, cognative function is decreased, making the prospect of coming up with a solution less likely, which in turn, keeps me up.
And catching a second/third/fourth wind can be both helpful and hurtful!
Anyway, yes, Tyrion does start to gradually succumb to the “Then Let Me Be Evil!” trope as the narrative goes on further and he continues to suffer mistreatment. In ADWD, he’s legtimiately dark. And I’d agree he’d be looking out for himself but I sort of want that soft spot for “cripples, bastards, and broken things” to return, have him be more than yet another out-for-himself character, bring him back into a better place.
Obsolute vs. redundant — both might be correct here, depending on what you mean. Obsolete is when something or someone is no longer useful/loses use. Redundant more means that somebody/someone isn’t needed because that concern has been filled/addressed.
Speaking of which, what do you mean here?
That Aegon/GC would lessen the value of Tyrion’s use to Dany?
That’s a really cool idea!
What you said about the CoTF/The Others, that was also really interesting. It sort of brings a biological anthropolic perspective into their development I’ll have to think on that!! 🙂
Oh man, I hope so, but I want to brace myself since I kind of build things up in my head and they don’t work out so well ^^;;
Re: Jon. Yeah, it was kind of like things happening around and to Jon had more impact on the plot than the character himself did. Namely his claim helping drive Dany to the brink. He made some choices but even with those choices, Jon ends up losing control and he’s thrust into positions he doesn’t want (Sansa still spreads his secret against his wishes and it positions him as a rival for a claim he doesn’t want. Jon’s refusal to take the crown not mattering to those who want to press his claim. Failing to control his own men who go crazy on the people of KL. Reluctantly assassinating a loved one who he believed in but it’s too late, Dany’s done a swan dive off the deep end and, despite everything, it turns out all the naysayers were right about her all along) and he has no say over his future as a result (sentenced to exile).
Yes, even Jon (and Dany’s) efforts in the plan to locate and destroy the Night King before he destroys Bran, aka Memory of Mankind, were all for naught because neither Jon or Dany come even close to that goal. They’d all be goners if it weren’t for Arya’s last minute save of Bran.
I join you in this!
And by ‘obsolute’, I mean ‘obsolete’. Looks my my cognative function is still not 100%. More like 55% and a headache 😉
Well I know I can’t do that, so few hours of sleep.
I think I mean both, if Aegon would meet Dany with the GC, Tyrion himself wouldn’t be valuable, now without them, he can be the savior to Dany and show Dany that she needs him. So Tyrion make a plan that put Aegon towards Westeros earlier. It’s a plan to make Tyrion more important for Dany. (and also he hope Aegon would make problems for his sister). So what you say, Aegon meeting Dany makes Tyrion less needed.
And I agree I hope really that Tyrion turn back to his senses, but I fear that that happen when it’s too late. I think Dany will leave Westeros already as a dark force, which Tyrion feels powerful there with the feeling “pay-back for my sister”. But that’s why I also think Cersei will be defeated earlier in the books than the show. I think once tyrion land on Westeros and he get the news that Cersei is gone and defeated, his “revenge thoughts” will be gone. And then he sees what he did. He had taken Daenerys to westeros, a force that is dangerous for the people, and then he will try to mend things, to focus Dany on a different path, a less fire and blood path. But I think then it would be too late.
And thanks about my idea of the CotF and the others, why I hope GRRM goes that way is that GRRM already put faith vs science in his books. It would be amazing if with the most fantasy-like element of the show science is present.
Yes, that’s exactly what I meant, and you worded it better than I did. 🙂 About the AA prophecy though, most all prophecies and legends originate from real events and people, and are subsequently embellished and “story-fied” through time. In other words, the AA prophecy would not have preceded the original hero so-to-speak.
And now history repeats as another battle for the Dawn emerges, but things aren’t going to happen exactly as the legends say, or the way it did in the past. Similarities are there, but it’s not a clean match, and that fits with the unreliability of prophesies in ASOIAF. In fact, I don’t expect that we’ll get a clear-cut answer to the prophecy in the books either. I’m sure we’ll get much more insight and exploration into it, but I’d be surprised if the prophecy gets wrapped up all tidy-like.
That’s how I see the prophesies on the show in any case, and why I’m typically not as disappointed in not getting more answers for them in the show than more hardcore book readers.
Yes, and technically the thing you describe would be retrofitting, but it still functions as foreshadowing in the story, and that’s the important part. Just because a detail in the story may not have been intended for a specific foreshadowing by the author originally doesn’t mean it can’t be if it fits. And that is something the author may discover later on.
If, for instance, D&D said that they had planned for Arya as the Night King’s killer back in season 3, would anyone have questioned that? I doubt it.
I wish I could find the interview/article with George where he admits to this himself, but it was mentioned by History of Westeros’ Long Night recap video with Radio Westeros.
If AA does not precede the original hero, then I don’t think it’s a prophecy, just a story that has nothing to do what ended up transpiring. If Jon is the one who starts the prophecy with his actions, actions he would have done without his “ice and fire” blood, it’s not really AA, it’s another prophecy entirely — unless AA is a prophecy of another coming prophecy? But I think that’ s getting a bit convoluted 🙂
On that note, I would question if Jon started any sort of prophecy or legendary story as far as the show goes — only Tyrion mentions Jon’s unifying role in 801, and the North is hardly happy about it, while the Long Night is never mentioned again after 804. For a prophecy to become a prophecy, it must be passed down from generation to generation and for that to happen, I believe there must be a certain amount of regard for the actions of this figure.
However, in-universe upon the show’s ending, the wildlings seem to be the only people who have great regard for Jon. The rest of Westeros…. not so much. As far as everyone south of Winterfell is concerned, there was no second coming of the Long Night. Jon may go down in history as a legend of the free folk, a Mance-like figure, but Tormund doesn’t even know of Jon’s “ice and fire” blood or circumstances of his birth per the AA prophecy.
As it played out, AA really had nothing to do what Jon’s role here, the magic imbued in his blood was of no consequence. Jon could have truly been just Ned Stark’s bastard with an unknown woman, just as Jon and everyone believed, and Jon would still make the same choices by virtue of who he is and his experiences rather than any of the circumstances and requirements laid out by AA. I get the idea of a twist — maybe it’s not a killing blow but unification. However, for that to be the case, the AA prophecy itself would need to have a role in that, provide something special only Jon (or whoever is AA) could do because they fulfilled some of the parameters of the prophecy.
The appearance of foreshadowing and retrofitting may look the same but they are different tools utilized by a writer. Foreshadowing requires a level of forethought to an anticipated narrative, even if it’s just the mere idea of it (it appears GRRM has an idea of where he’s going but doesn’t know exactly how to get there). The author is aware of what they eventually want to build up to and will write accordingly (ie. the revelation of R+L=J). In contrast, retrofitting is taking an event and looking backward, trying to find what has already been written to lead up to it. When originally implemented, this “hint” doesn’t require any forethought when it had been originally implemented.
Due to their long-running, far more spontaneous nature and the need for unexpected twists to keep the audience engaged, retrofitting (or rather, retcon) is done a lot on soap operas: “A piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift.” They use it to explain a sudden long lost daughter, hidden relation, sudden twist, etc.
That’s not to say other stories don’t do it too, they do! Joss Whedon has done it more than once. But in contrast to foreshadowing, retcon seems quite a bit shakier when compared because it wasn’t planned by the author, the author is using elements after the fact to try and explain a sudden twist when this twist may feel empty to some because they don’t feel there is enough to support this twist.
Lack of foreshadowing to Arya being the one to kill the Night King and ultimately ending the Long Night, a storyline that has been building since season 1, isn’t my only problem with this twist. It’s also that this has been part of the stories of other characters for so long, linked to other characters and associated elements for so long, that to have a character who had nothing to do with this storyline be the one to suddenly finish it in one fell swoop…. It seems emptier and less built up to me.
I get the associations Arya has with death but I don’t think this was her story to finish. Arya had a different arc and a big part of that was her revenge list (the Hound, another character driven by revenge, being the one to make her realize the pitfalls of it) and there was payoff/victories with this. Arya got to remove people from her list (like wiping out House Frey) and was able to make choices about others (the Hound). Some kills were taken away from her (Cersei) but by another character who also was set on destroying Cersei for other reasons. Meanwhile, the Night King/White Walkers was something Jon (well, and Sam, Tormund, Edd, and the wildlings) have been living and breathing since season 1.
I think now it’s clear that as of the end of ADWD, Dany is starting on a darker path but I don’t think she’s quite there yet and it’ll take some time to get her to the point she was in 805, if the events of 805 go down in the books like they did in the show.
I think she’ll still be meaning to do good (or her idea of it anyway), but using extremist methods (a well-intentioned extremist) ala purify the world to “free it” that aren’t so good. But I think it’ll take a fair bit of time to get Dany to where she was in 805 — or a similar place. And I think part of the set-up will involve some less-than-stellar experiences in Westeros (I think she’ll be disappointed that the people won’t be crying out for her the way they did in Essos but I’m hoping it’s more than that and it’ll involve Dany trying at least rather than resolving herself to fear. She and Tyrion don’t even try to spread some good PR to combat the bad PR Cersei is spreading.)
But I hope there’s a bit more to Tyrion’s arc too rather than total darkness because I feel there’s already so much of it. I hope it’s more nuanced. However, Tyrion still has a beef with Jaime too (the Tysha incident) so I don’t know… I just feel it’s getting to a depressing state :/
I wanted to mention that I go to the Gulf Canada Center quite a bit these days and everytime I do, I wonder, “Hmmm, has Enharmony been this way today?” Especially when I see that little convenience store where I sought out the GoT edition of EW!
I’m sorry — I just reread what I wrote and realized it was pretty convoluted here. I was unnecessarily repeating myself and my post wasn’t well-structured.
The essence of what I’m saying re: the function of foreshadowing vs. retcon is the impact the writer’s awareness and intention has on the narrative upon using each of these tools. With foreshadowing, the writer is aware s/he is building up to a certain point in a future narrative so s/he’s like to write with this in mind. They’re deliberately writing a narrative with an awareness of this connection. With retcon, that’s not there. The retconned plot point may lack that support because the writer wasn’t aware of the connection between that piece and the future plot point when they implemented the original plot point and it may conflict with other elements or feel unsupported to some.
I’m sure GRRM has utilized retcon in his writing. I’m sure just about every writer has done it. If I was a writer, I bet I’d do it too! But this was a conclusion to such a big, big storyline and I felt it was lacking — though I love Arya’s character dearly. In my opinion, retcon is not the strongest tool to resort to and I think true foreshadowing is a much stronger device to utilize.
I think one part that will help Dany dark heel in de books. I think Meereen will not be saved. Yes they win but the city is in chaos. Burned lost. Dragons are loose, they burn almost everything. Astapor and Yunkaii will probably be in flames too before Winds end. And I think Dany will make one stop extra in the books. Volantis. I think that take over will be the turn point of Dany’s character. I think what happen in Meereen showed her, you can’t work civil with these people. I think she will turn fire and blood on the nobles in Volantis, burning all the rich families houses to the ground. They are evil, they are slavers. But I think here that means that she also burn the children that are in those homes. But I think she will not burn the poor, the slaves etc. But here she doesn’t look at who is good or bad, there is no grey. All that doesn’t follow her are evil.
Almost every day. 🙂 My office is close to there. Did you ever end up getting that EW magazine from that convenience store?
As for our discussion, I have a few more points to make, but I’ll get around to it tonight when I have more time (and after voting of course).
That’s so cool! That always crosses my mind when I go there 🙂 My best friend works at one of the companies there so I go to see her some afternoons every week at Il Cafe — best matcha, best hot chocolate, nicest owner!! 🙂 When I used to do work for the Glenbow, I also found the cafe by their building, Rosso’s, has a nice hot chocolate too! I’ve never graduated to coffee… (Hot Chocolate February was the best). Your office is blessed by proximity to some great hot chocolate places 😉
Sadly, I didn’t manage to get the magazine! I looked and looked and looked but got a Mars bar as consolation 😉 Somebody must have snatched it up before I got there. But thank you for telling me about it!
And no rush! I have work to catch up on so I’ll be otherwise preoccupied myself X___X
Oh man, that sounds dystopian T__T But thanks for sharing!
I do hope it’s a bit more gradual than in the show, I hope it’s not darkness right away and there’s an appropriate step-by-step build-up rather than 30 to 100 in one go. My feeling is that much of the darkness will be inhabiting her thoughts and we’ll be able to see that, which may help the transition (since we can’t see her thoughts in the show). As she did in ADWD, I think Dany will continue to fight the dark side of herself, she does fear it, but as events unfold, Dany might be losing that battle more and more, giving into her darker impulses more and more until she transitions into whatever GRRM has planned for her.
Well I think where she ended in Dance she is around 40% but not quite there. I think after her trip with the Dothraki and what had befallen in Meereen I don’t think the books will go with everything is fine. I think the slaves win, the good guys in Meereen but with a high cost. I think a lot is lost. Already the bloody flux is in the city with the winds chapters. I think the slavers will be gone in slaver’s bay after the battle of Meereen. And the few people surviving will of course rebuild the cities as free cities. Or maybe the slaves asks Dany to burn it all down, and let the slaves find some place else. Maybe they go with her to Westeros.
But I think Baristan will be executed. We know Dany is wrong, and I think Tyion is the final push that made her do it. But I think we also can understand Dany why she did it. Maybe as you stated (I though you did it) he will execute Hizdahr and we found out Hizdahr is not the harpy in the end, and I think the shavepit is connected to the Harpy. But this will be the first step that Dany of Dany’s dark heel.
I think she leave Meereen, maybe the slaves go with her or they rebuild the slave cities like the books. And then she goes towards Voltanis (probably a chapter where she will see the wonders of Valyria). I think she will go to Volantis peacefully first. With the intention of only killing the ones holding slaves there. She will meet that woman Tyrion saw in volantis. She tells which families are into slavery. And I think she will give the option to let the children go free, and maybe she does. But I’m almost certain she will not be kind with the nobles that are into slavery that are adults. And maybe some children get into the crossfire. (And the I’m the monster though can be provoked again.)
And I think she will be around 70% dark here. But still hold onto her good side. Maybe Tyrion is responsible.
As for the harpy I think it’s Illyrio. To push Dany to westeros.
And what if Dany will be peacefull with Aegon until he sees Illyrio is with him?
I wanted to edit but I run out of time.
EDIT: As for what I think will happen in Volantis still can be a normal spiral towards darkness. Maybe this is where she fucks up, but still she feels bad for what she did. Maybe she sees the horror she inflicts. What if she even have a talk with for instance Tyrion: Look at what I’ve done. My anger was at the ones holding slaves, children should not suffer for their parents sins.
Tyrion: This was not your fault your grace. You gave them an option, and they refused. It’s their parents fault, the fault of the system they hold dear to.
Daenerys holds onto that thought but somehow she doesn’t believe it. How can children be responsible for the system, she didn’t have the right to punish them.
And I think this will fester in Westeros to her embracing that words. Which in turn Tyrion finally sees who see is, and what she’s become.
I don’t think it’s 40%. I’d say it’s more 10%. Dany’s done some stuff (the wineseller’s daughters) but I don’t think it’s anywhere near 40% of getting to the point where she needlessly commits democide on a surrendered city of civilians and thinks, “Hey, this worked! Let’s conquer the world this way! Kill now, mercy later!”
Dany can be pretty ruthless but she still feels remorse and guilt (which you do acknowledge in your speculations!) and sometimes, pretty severely. And she’s still doing stuff like walking amongst the sick and having her heart break when she must close the gates on them for the good of Meereen. And there’s her reaction to Daario’s proposal that she use her wedding as an ambush: she’s horrified.
If she does meet fAegon and Illyrion (I definitely think she’ll be dealing with fAegon one way or another), that depends on what has happened leading up to this moment.
But I think some of the ideas you pose are interesting. However, I think it’s crucial her spiral is more gradual and we see more and more of it coming in smaller increments, a natural shift rather than a total 180. Or even 60. I think it’ll need to be 10-20, 10-20, etc.
Speaking of darkness, I’ve been rewatching Parks and Rec and I love how the library is the root of all evil XD!!
True, but don’t forget what she already dit. Mirri Maz Duur (for me this was 10%), nailing the masters of Meereen (120%/25%), she even give slavery a pass in dance again (30%), with her though that it will only be for a short while. All for peace. For me what she did there is already pretty dark, and more than 10%, 10% dark is for me more Arya for instance, or Theon, and Dany has more the urges than those 2. I think when Dany has her Dothraki part she is already at 40%, then she returns to slaver’s bay and sees what happened there in her absent which I think will set her towards the 50% but not yet on the turn point. Just below. And what I think will happen in Volantis is that the Masters won’t surrender themselves to Dany, maybe even provoke her, sending the heads of slaves, or something else. Or one family (of the many) decided to attack Dany. And I think that will push her over the 50% towards the 60%. She will act in her anger, she takes down only the houses of the masters there, but forgets that children are there, only when she’s done and visit one house she sees the horror she has done, and I will believe that she “hates” herself for it, and blame herself. And that will fester. Then I think she will deal with Illyrio or the north. She will be a savior in the north, which up her “I’m the hero who knows what’s right.”. And what I think will happen in Westeros will up that 60 to a 90% dark. (I don’t see Dany as 100% dark with her actions in 8×05. That action was 100% dark, but Dany herself still has that small part that’s good, the longing for home etc but it’s overshadowed by her dark side, not a single character in GoT is 100% evil.)
But who is the worst Tammy 1 or Tammy 2?
That’s all true but I don’t think it’s anywhere near the point of 805 because there’s still a rationale and logic to Dany’s actions, she’s nowhere near the point where she’s committing mass murder on the most impoverished classes and nobility alike yet. So I don’t think she’s nearly halfway to that point. On a relative scale from “kind of dark/volatile tendencies” to “purge the world of nonbelievers!!! Death now, mercy later!!”, I think she’s maybe… at 20%? Dany’s always tried to help the helpless and oppressed (AnnOther made a good point to me once that it’s Dany who decides who the helpless and oppressed are but still, harm to weaker members of society and oppression is a trigger for Dany) and she was still trying to do that as of the end of ADWD. She was also making some pretty big compromises for peace — but that frustration was bubbling inside her at the moral injustices she had to endure for its sake.
I do think your ideas are good and we know now that Arya probably isn’t going to end up full-on dark like (sigh) Dany. And Theon’s already on his redemption arc but I think Dany’s got a ways to go before she hits 805 territory. But I also hope they build up to Dany’s delusional self in 806 because Dany’s never been that way before. She’s been ruthless, she’s been take-no-prisoners, she’s killed en masse with a target, but she’s never denied reality with the belief that death = liberation.
But it’s hard to know what parts are D&D and what parts are GRRM.
I agree, she is not even on the half, so that’s why I think she is now around 30% of the 80% that she will end up. And I think as you state the up to that 80% will be accelerated. I think the build up is done at the end of dance, and from now we see the actions that result into her further decline. Where dance took a whole book of staying in Meereen where that decline was not really in play (maybe a little bit), I think in winds and dance it will all be about her decline. She will be pushed into action into action, the more she tries to do good, the more her plans fail and backfire, as martin states dance for her was about her giving up on her ideals for peace, but what happens if that peace fails. It’s only human that after it backfire in your face you will go back to the other end of your choices, in this case her ideals, and even more hold tight too, peace failed, so no more peace. 100% going for her ideals.
But what I don’t think will happen is that Dany turn mad like her father, she is not Mad (except if my theory of Euron comes into play that makes sense but I will talk about that in another post). I think it’s more that she embrace her darkness (like Cersei does as an example), her darkness brings her the power to stop the oppressions that is happening in planetos. And I wonder if Dany caring for others will have it’s emotional toll, that is too heavy for her too cary, that if she doesn’t want to break she needs to put that caring into a deep place inside her. Like a choice that many make when things get to rough. (many politicians who started as good guys turn that switch too keep on going with their jobs, else it’s too heavy to deal with all the heavy things that happen)
About Euron, I cling to the “He’s controlling Quaithe”-thrope even more. Or maybe Jaqen who is in Old town does it with the glass candles. I think the visions that Dany gets are false, and need to be interpreted the other way. She is being warned to not trust those people (isolation). I think that those people are the ones that she should trust to keep the peace. I think the one that gives dany her visions tries to isolate Dany and thereby controlling her. I mean Dany mistrusts everyone except Quaithe. Which I think is dangerous that she trust somebody who is using some kind of magic to interact with her. Who is she really?
Yeah, I think you described a way of Dany gradually spiraling. I once heard her story called ‘tragic idealism’ and I think that’s apt. When idealism turns to violence because violence seems to be the only thing that yields results, her efforts to do good in peaceful ways fail — this is at the heart of every well-intentioned extremist, doing whatever they can to achieve that ideal world when all else fails, what they believe is ultimately good for all.
I don’t know what’s going to happen with Euron but it’s interesting to read your speculations. Yes, isolation might be part of Dany’s decline, but that’s an interesting theory behind Dany’s visions. I think Dany’s visions are genuine (as other characters have visions too) but that would be terrifying if somebody was hacking into her mind to control her.
I’m rereading the books now, almost done with Game of thrones. And when I get to Feast I will pay attention to the glass candle information. It looks like that is important with transfer information.
And I’m into theories again. I read Dany’s chapters, and she constant tells that she is being raised in Braavos with lemon trees and red door, but it feels like GRRM tries to put us on a wrong trail here, if something is true GRRM most of the time tells it 1 or 2 times but here he keeps on telling that sentence almost every Dany chapter. And especially when it feels more like Dorne the climate she describes. Or will Arya maybe have a chapter where she will infiltrate the red door.
I forgot! Tammy 2 (second wife) was afraid of Tammy 1 (first wife), wasn’t she? And didn’t Tammy 1 act as a mid-wife for Ron’s birth?? And taught him in grade school… and married him…
But I recall Tammy 0 (Ron’s mother) ultimately bested Tammy 1?
But if the AA prophecy didn’t precede the original hero, where did it come from? I suppose you could say it’s just “magic” or a portent, but with George’s highly detailed and rooted world, it seems more likely to me that it is based off actual events and people. Subsequently as this story is retold, it becomes a legend and prophecy.
Furthermore, the fact that Mel goes from Stannis to Jon and/or Dany as the PTWP (and that it’s not so clear-cut) suggests in a sense that it’s more about who will fill that role of AA this time around. Mel herself thinks it’s about finding the true AA of course, but she believes in the prophecy; Jon, for instance, would not.
I think Sam’s book at the end indicates that Jon’s deeds will be remembered and perhaps become legend. (Along with a certain.. shall-we-say “Hero of Winterfell”, a legend in her own right? :D).
I don’t think it should matter how an author comes up with their material as long as it works and functions in the story. It’s often very interesting to get that peek behind the curtain, but it has the potential to destroy a certain mystique as well. I do agree that there is a danger with retrofitting that may end up a little clumsy if it doesn’t really fit; feeling forced. But this is up to the skill of the writer to disguise, and if done well, retrofitting can absolutely function perfectly as foreshadowing.
If an author leaves a detail in the story that original was either innocuous or meant for something else, but then later discovers it can be used as foreshadowing, the reader/viewer would experience it as foreshadowing. If, after that, the author reveals that it wasn’t originally intended that way but through the creative process discovered that it worked given the direction of the story, is it somehow not foreshadowing now? Of course it is (assuming it fits, and isn’t forced of course :)).
In terms of the foreshadowing for Arya killing the Night King, I get that you wanted more given the significance of that plot, but for me I think there was just enough of it. It’s a tricky balance for writers to not give too much away with foreshadowing, especially in this case where they wanted it to be a surprise. We had the early foreshadowing with the line “what do we say to the god of Death? Not today,” the eyes prophecy, then later on the Catspaw Dagger in the old book, her stealth, her connection to Mel and theme of Death.. I think it fit nicely while still being surprising.
Yeah I like the location of my office downtown — I like being close to things that don’t require driving. 🙂 Especially in this city.. I’ve never heard of Il Cafe though, even though I’m in Gulf Canada almost every day. I’m either just passing through or having lunch at the food court.
Too bad you didn’t get the EW magazine from the convenience store there, but I love that even though you didn’t get what you came for you had to leave with something, so.. chocolate bar it is. 🙂
Oh yes, I wasn’t leaving empty handed! That was a glum Mars bar — a bitter consolation prize! ;0;
Il Caffe! It is pretty easy to miss but well worth it once you find it! You know how there’s a Plus 15 if you keep walking east beyond the food court? Just keep going until you hit that Plus 15 and you’ll eventually hit an emptier area with a black seating area. From there, there’s an escalator going down. Take that escalator down and when you look to your left, you’ll see more chairs and then the cafe is there, a little out of the way!
Or I can just give you the address (207 9 Ave SW) 😉 It’s in this little alcove, to the right of Rush! It’s super easy to miss. They make great stuff — their peanut butter balls 😍
I think this might be our ultimate point of divide, which I think is fair because what works for one viewer doesn’t work for another 🙂 I’m afraid it did feel clumsy and “twist-y” to me, even before I had seen the Inside the Episode for 803 and D&D revealed when they chose Arya to be the Night Kingslayer. It’s primarily because Arya had so little to do with that storyline. The episode in which she finishes the Night King (and therefore, the Long Night) was the same episode she even sees a wight for the very first time. To me, it didn’t feel (I hate this word) “earned”. Whatever the connections she does have to death, the article on the Catspaw dagger she carries, her martial skills — I just feel this particular arc wasn’t her arc. There are other characters I feel who had a far stronger connection the Night King storyline, a stronger connection to Red Priestesses’ prophecies, dragon glass, Valyrian steel, and could tick off more boxes in closing off various storylines related to the White Walkers.
But again, I think this is largely dependent on personal opinion because I see it vary from viewer to viewer, which is fair.
I don’t mean to be frustratingly stubborn about this but… 😅 No, I’m afraid I can’t agree it’s foreshadowing if it’s done after the fact because the original connection between the hint and the future narrative isn’t there. Which, I think, is the definition of foreshadowing. If done after the fact, it’s a retcon. However, whether or not it worked is up to the viewer and I really appreciate it worked for you! 🙂 I wish it worked for me because I was invested in this story.
That’s not to say that all retcons are bad — I just think they’re more risky and more open to narrative problems. One of my favourite characters came via a retconned story on another show I watched religiously as a kid to university student (*cough*AllMyChildren*cough*) and I loved that retcon. But I don’t think it’s really the same as foreshadowing.
Here’s the front entrance! (To the left of Sukiyaki House)
So I just finished GoT. And somehow because of the ending of GoT I focus a lot about Dany, and Ned’s chapters when he has flashbacks.
What got my eye was couple of things:
1. Dany’s remembers the past wrong. And didn’t quaithe tell her in Dance that Dany needs to remember who she is? What if she needs to remember her past.
1a. Her memory of the Red door. It couldn’t be Braavos, I remember that in a Arya chapter somebody told that there are not Lemon’s in Braavos, but they are in Dorne.
1b. She doesn’t have really memories about Viserys, but she had of that old man that took care of her.
1c. When dany tries to remember something from her past, Viserys pinch her in her arm. This felt for me more as a “suppressing memories.”
2. When she smelled the parfums of Dorne in the market, she tells that this is the smell of that house with the Red door.
3. Viserys calls her slut and other names. He only calls her 2 times by the name sister, when he needs something from her. Her getting married to Drogo, which she was needed as a bargain ship to get him home, (not both him, Dany’s home is the red door not KL), and when he is about to die.
3a. But he calls Rheagar a dragon, and if I’m not mistaken he never talk dirty to other female Targaryens only Daenerys is a slut and other words. So it’s not because she is a woman or something, something else is going on.
4. That Dany’s mother was pregnant was only because of rumors. There is no real recolection of Rhaella being pregnant, only the stories, the stories that Varys fed in Westeros.
5. In other books I will look more into Dany’s strange memories. I think there’s something here. GRRM already told that Sansa miss-remembering things is important. Maybe because Dany is also miss-remembering things.
6. Ned has many dreams about Lyanna, but they are pretty straight forward. I mean how can people not see the R+L=J even when finishing his first book.
7. His second memories are also strange that they are in it. Ashara Dayne comes forward a couple of times. Why is she so important? And I can’t remember who said it but the rumor about Ned and Ashara had a night together. I also found it strange that Ned would make a detour going to the Daynes after the tower of the Joy debacle in which he just got the child of Lyanna in his care. All for bringing a sword back? And his first though was not, maybe I should go to Winterfell to my wife and bringing this baby to the best care they have in Winterfell. It felt strange, even the way Ned thinks about it.
8. It’s explicitly stated that they Daynes look almost identical to the Targaryens.
9. Ashara supposedly killed herself after she gave birth to a stillborn daughter.
my thoughts after many rereads:
I get the feeling more that Daenerys is the daughter of Ashara Dayne and Ned. Ned brought the sword back to see his daughter. Jon is still the daughter of Rheagar and Lyanna. When Viserys needed an army, Varys secured a girl that look Targaryen. The resentment Viserys had for Dany is more logical with this. Varys is pretty good with manipulating things, and brainwashing a little girl is is in his league. Viserys helped with this with the pinch trick. I remember that some therapies also have this trick to trick your brain into store positive thoughts, so it would work with memories also.
Why I think this can maybe be true:
1. Even after 5 whole books. George kept his Jon parentage a secret because it was important for the endgame a secret Targaryen.
2. Dany’s memories (including the red door) need to be important if he kept that also for the last 2 books. Same with the Ashara mystery.
3. Danys story is all about her claim on the throne, as the rightful heir. It is all based on who her father is. She also resent the Starks because they helped Robert, if ned is her father it would put a twist on her thoughts about the Starks.
4. FAegon. What’s the point of that story if he’s indeed fake. If he’s real I can understand it, but that gives a problem with Jon’s parentage. But him being fake just is him being fake, just an opponent for her to deal with. But if FAegon is in fact a reason that Daenerys needs to reflect herself, who she is. Illyrio put him forth as the rightful heir and Aegon bought it, he really believed it. What does that say about her. And maybe when she deals with FAegon her real memories of her childhood keep floating back.
Hopefully I put all my thoughts in this post that I had about it.
True, and Ron bested her with the drinking game.
I have to say my Ned+Ashara=Dany is wrong. Both had dark hair. But:
Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter …
Thanks for sharing, kevin! I’ll read this over tonight and ruminate 🙂
Ah, ok, I’ve definitely walked past there many times. I will have to check it out. While I do like hot chocolate, I must admit I do love my coffee. 🙂 Sounds like they have all kinds of goodies!
I think the prophecy probably started with an original figure. Some theories posit ‘the last hero’, which is a figure who is said to have ended the first Long Night.
The prophecy of Azor Ahai is based in the R’hllor faith, with different cultures ascribing different names to the same figure said to end the second coming of darkness. Melisandre believes this figure will be instrumental in the second war for the dawn:
However, in the show, AA seemingly did not come to light because it had nothing to do with the conclusion to the second Long Night. The choices Jon made for unification were not based on the special blood or circumstances of birth as dictated by AA, ascribing him any special qualities to fight the undead, but on his experiences with which AA has nothing to do with. Jon’s “ice and fire” blood only served to drive Dany nuts. He did not wield a red sword, he didn’t even fight a single White Walker or battle against the Night King. Darkness did not flee before him. If anything, it strolled nonchalantly away from him with an unconcerned smirk while Jon was swarmed by wights.
Jon even received his Valyrian sword based on merit, not on blood.
Right, so if Jon himself starts this prophecy through his unification efforts and falls into legend himself, this prophecy would not be preceding him. Jon would be point 0 (origin hero) rather than point 1 (prophecized hero based on origin hero). In that case, it’s no longer AA since AA was a different beast entirely with no impact on the choices and experiences that drew Jon to unifying disparate peoples.
You’re right, Jon wouldn’t be a believer but something of AA still needs to connect to the choices and experiences Jon had which lead him to either his realization of what the true purpose of the Night’s Watch is or his choices thereafter to have anything to dow with AA. However, AA had no connection to this. Jon could be of any bloodline and of any birth circumstance and still make those same choices, making AA apparently irrelevant and just a defunct prophecy.
True, and I think if anyone’s going to fall into legend as a hero, it’s going to be Arya, who doesn’t have to contend with a nasty social reputation Jon now (doubly) has as a believed-bastard-born individual-who-killed-his-queen (no matter the reasons, no matter how many lives it saved. Reasons don’t seem to matter to the Westerosi when they’re applying taboos ;D).
I did hear good things about their coffee! My best friend loves coffee and this is her cafe of choice 🙂
But I also just realized — if you don’t like their stuff after I’ve hyped and hyped it, I’m going to look like the biggest idiot XD:;; So I hope you like it!
And don’t forget that many people have a different way of interpreting the prophecy, we all go with what Mel tells because she was the first but Marwyn and Aemon had a different wording when talking about the prophecy.
But I wonder if Rheagar maybe not be AA. If the theory is correct and N+A= child, and L+R=child. What if in fact Ned+Ashara=Jon. And Lyanna+Rheagar=Dany. And Ned switched the bodies, because he wanted to raise his own child, and Dany had silverly hair that Robert could get triggered when seeing the child. That could make it possible that Rheagar forfilled his prophecy: 1 son, 2 daughters, 3 heads of the dragon. But this idea goes against what Barristan thinks when looking at Dany.
Back to AA, what if Dawn is lightbringer, the sword of the Daynes. It’s a sword made up from magical stones that came from the sky. And if my theory is right about how the WW came to exist in the books, because of the second moon crashing into planetos that same moonstones (for better wording) could have been the reason why it is needed to defeat the WW treat.
But the question is, who is azor ahai here and who is nissa nissa. I somehow think this will come to pass in the books because George is all about blood-magic since book 1.
Another theory I had was that Ice is in fact lightbringer. That was made into 2 swords, 1 is oathkeeper. Who is in possession with Brienne. Jaime and her are going to LSH. And if my theory maybe is correct about Jaime killing Cersei. What if Jaime is AA, and Cersei is Nissa Nissa, and the blood of Cersei is needed to wake up oathkeeper. (Only problem is that Cersei suppose to be strangled.
But my guess remains Dawn. And if Dany is the daughter of Ashara (Which I believe is Quaithe now), Dany has a connection to Dawn. But how that is filled in I don’t know. Maybe after reading clash I have other ideas.
What is strange is that George RR Martin has stated before that we could find the ending of the show in book 1 and season 1. But how? Probably the red door, L+R, and the children of the forest with the others. But I don’t see the clear picture yet.
And what I found great about GRRM is as his publisher says, he has a certain style. First he give the mystery, then he give a clue that only a few can see, than he gives an even bigger clue that a huge amount of readers can see and last he give away the mystery. (That’s why I’m convinced Dany=Ashara+mystery man’s daughter, my guess remains Ned, The mad King himself making Dany a bastard or Rheagar last one I hope not, but the clues are in book 1, Dany’s memories, Ned getting his own family in danger for the sake of protecting Dany in 5×05, if you read book 1 he does that since the first conversation with Robert he has about Dany, there’s even a time he thinks about Ashara when Dany is mentioned. And of course Barristan tells Dany looks so much like Ashara. That’s the in your-face-clue George is giving)
I want to answer this quickly for now (I still need to go over all your posts!) but it seems R+L=J is all but confirmed. When GRRM was still deciding on whether or not to allow D&D to adapt ASOIAF, the question he asked them was, “Who is Jon Snow’s mother?” and they answered, “Lyanna.” That got them the job 🙂
I included this in the other thread but I thought it’d be relevant here.
I was watching the endgame speculations of Elio Garcia and Linda Antonsson and they were discussing how it was going to go down re: Jon, Dany, and the Others.
When Maester Aemon leaves Castle Black, he tells Jon:
And when Jon reads it, Jon finds the legend of Nissa Nissa.
The video is something you might find interesting! They aren’t fans of the show by any means any longer but they pose some interesting ideas with how the books will deal with the same stories.
My reply is in moderation now T_T But I wanted to answer something just quickly now, before I added a bunch of stuff that sent it to purgatory:
It seems R+L=J is all but confirmed. When GRRM was still deciding on whether or not to allow D&D to adapt ASOIAF, the question he asked them was, “Who is Jon Snow’s mother?” and they answered, “Lyanna.” That got them the job 🙂
True, but GRRM still be GRRM, he maybe wanted to know if they pay attention to the books, and knowing that Lyanna is Jon’s mother would be paying attention to the books. Doesn’t mean that GRRM still had that plot-twist in mind for his last book. (He always expected to finish the books first so D&D would know that plot-twist before they arrive there).
Personally I still believe R+L=J. But I also believe A+MM=Dany
MM=Mystery Man. Is it Ned, is it Arys (there are clues Arys raped Ashara) or is it Rheagar (which I doubt because he chose Lyanna to be the mother of his third child)
Those are interesting theories! But going off of a basic Punnett square and because I think silver hair is recessive (given the rarity of it), I think Dany would need to come from two parents who also both carried the recessive gene for silver hair and I don’t think there’s any way Ned does since silver hair isn’t a thing for Starks.
But that would be really, really cool.
A potential child of Jon and Dany could have silver hair given Jon would probably be B(brown dominant)s(silver recessive) and Dany would be ss(silver recessive) but Dany would need to inherit ss from both parents.
Elio and Linda had an interesting theory:
* They point out that before Aemon left Castle Black, he tells Jon that he had a passage in the Jade Compendium marked for him to read. Jon promises he will read it. When Jon does, he finds the story of Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa.
* Linda doesn’t think Dany will do her “liberation” speech in the books (which included threats to Winterfell). Believes Jon will need a different motivation in the books, a “looming threat” that would be absent should Dany not decide to take the world by fire and blood.
* Posits the threat of the Others may not be quite over (after KL?) and Jon will still have a purpose to fulfill there.
* She speculates Nissa Nissa will happening here.
* Also believes Jon will end up Beyond the Wall.
* Believes Aegon (Elia’s son) will be the one to save people from Cersei (“the handsome young hero”, thinks he’ll have Dorne on his side, will rally the people). Dany will view him as a pretender.
* Dany is going to feel threatened.
* Believes she’ll ultimately be feared by Westeros with her foreign army.
* Believes Dany is constantly reaching for her past with the house with the Red Door, realizes her future is not what she hoped.
* Believes this darkening will be a far more gradual, painful, “earned” process.
* Believes Dany will lose a dragon to Euron and may lose another while fighting.
* Believes Barristan may have to make a hard choice to betray Daenerys.
* Thinks she may have a child.
* Wonders if one of GRRM’s three “holy sh!t” moments is either the burning of KL or Jon killing Dany.
* Speculates that in conquering KL, Dany ends up destroying it — destroying her home — and what she set out to find (home).
Dany has a Dayne ancestor, just like Jon and Gendry. Egg’s (Aegon V) mother was a Dayne.
But I do believe there had been a baby swap with Ashara’s baby. I just don’t think it’s Dany. I always thought it was Rhaegar’s first Aegon with Elia Martell, he was born at the same time as Ashara’s baby.
I also forgot to add, Linda believes the burning of King’s Landing will be far less Dany intentionally combing the city with fire but more accidental, getting out of control when Drogon sets off the caches of wildfire. She will perform ruthless conquests (not being so concerned with the “niceties”) but she won’t burn KL all “willy nilly”. However, people will blame Dany for intentionally destroying the city. And I think it’s here Dany resolves herself to fear.
They also seem to believe the Others won’t be dealt with so easily and that with the Nissa Nissa Dany sacrifice (Nissa Nissa would require the beloved, Dany, to give herself over willingly), Jon will be holding the Wall (I believe for the rest of his life) to keep them forced back but I’ll give another listen to see if I’ve got it right.
Well not really. Look at Aegon. He had the targaryen hair. But his mother was a Martel who is 100% dark hair with not a strain of silverly in her genes. The silver hair comes only from the father. The same could have happened with Dany with only one silver-haired parent.
And didn’t the silverly hair not come from magic with the Targaryens, something that happened in Valyria, maybe that magic overrules the common rules of hair.
But it’s probably more likely the child is Arys of Rheagar’s because of the hair.
What maybe also an option is that many thought of is that Lyanna gave birth to two children, Dany and Jon. And that Ashara really lost her child, but that she raised Dany instead as a substitute. Which would make the ending even better if Jon and Dany were twins, their stories mirror perfectly then.
Interesting. I will take this when I read clash and the rest of the books further. Maybe I see clues.
That would be even more interesting, and that could mean Aegon is really Aegon and not a fake.
I will listen to it this week. Sounds interesting.
Hmm, that’s true (re:Aegon). However, Jon Snow still has dark hair.
But maybe I shouldn’t be applying high school biology to Westeros? XD
It’s fun to discuss different parentages but I think Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar’s while Dany is Rhaella’s and Aerys’s. Otherwise, too many hidden secret parent theories — enough to rival a soap opera 🙂
True, but GRRM already stated a while back that Dany is not who we think she is. And that those missing memories are important for that. But I think the best thing to do is just discuss it the possibilities and after that just think what we should known now in the books. That indeed Dany=Arys+Rhealla. And if it indeed will be something else, we will find out in the next book. Too little clues are there. The only clue we have that is there in the books is that something is wrong with what Dany remembers of her past. And that is about the red door (which she repeats over and over again) and the lemon trees.
Oh, I’m sure I will. 🙂 I’ll let you know.
I’ve seen speculation that the house with the red door and lemon tree is a red herring.
Do you know where I can find that GRRM interview? I’d be really interested in reading it!
I hope it’s to your taste!! But at the very least — peanut butter balls 🙂 🙂 🙂
The lemon tree is just a mistake GRRM made. I don’t think GRRM does a lot of real gardening in his garden to know what grows where. I don’t get why everyone keeps analyzing that.
I’d agree with you but I think Kevin has a point here. It seems lemon trees don’t actually grow in Braavos. There is one passage indicating lemons may only grow in Dorne and other passages that references the scarcity of trees at all in Braavos — so this seems kind of intentional. The only trees present in Braavos are those in the gardens of the wealthy.
When Dany had her own room with a lemon tree outside her window, living in a house with a red door, this house was owned by Williem Darry — who I’d imagine would be among the wealthy. Maybe this lemon tree is imported and specially supported (which is possible! I live in the dry prairies of Alberta, Canada, and I’m told trees here are often imported since a rain shadow passes over from the lush and fruitful British Columbia, over the Rockies, and sucks out all the moisture from the air, creating our comparatively barren Alberta. BC can grow all kinds of fruits, like oranges! In Alberta, we can grow strawberries and crab apple trees but nothing like what BC can.)
However. it is an odd occurence and is discussed here if you’re interested 🙂
But it could be an instance of an oversight. I don’t really know. However, I do think some things should be what they seem or it just gets to be way too much and way too convoluted.
GRRM does mention the perils of memory (Sansa has her “unkiss”) but I’m divided on the house with the red door and lemon tree. However, ultimately, I think it represents all of Dany’s dreams to her — of home, happiness, peace, and finding her place in the world — things I think she believes she will gain when she takes back her family’s throne.
I’m going to look into it again, it was a couple of years ago that he stated that. It was in an interview where he also talked that the ending of the show can be found when only reading the first book. But it seems when I look in google for what I’m searching every damn article is about the ending of the show. So I need to look into a better wording for my search.
But it was about that her memories are important for the end-plot.
Nope not a mistake. In dance once again she thinks about the red door with the lemon tree in Braavos, multiple chapters. It’s once again on her mind, and it clearly states lemon tree in braavos. And in Arya’s chapter in winds which was supposed to be in dance (he wrote it around the same time), it was stated that Citrus (lemon is part of it) can’t grow in Braavos only in the other Free cities. George is telling us something. If this is a mistake it is a very big mistake if he makes this in the same book. He tells us: Something is wrong with her memories.
And did you know that George first draft has Tyrosh as the place where she remember the red door (Blood of the dragon was that magazine called if i’m not mistaken it was released before game of thrones and it constrained only Dany’s journey), he changed it for a reason. And when he changed it, he already knew Braavos was too high, he already made the maps.
Nope, the memories are important, especially if a characters tells it 10x in a book, and once again in a later book she already dreams of it again. If it was a mistake, George would not have it returned in Dance of Dragon.
It could be that she was living with a wealthy family in Braavos, but then I think Arya will find the house with the red door in winds.
But then the question is, why did they leave? Why were they pushed out.
Another thing is that it can be much more simpler when looking at George’s first idea. Tyrosh. What if she lived there. And the simple truth is. Aegon is really Aegon and once Dany have disposed of him. She sees his body, and she gets her memory back. Boom. Aegon was there at the red door. He wasn’t fake.
So not saying she really was born in Dorne, but I think it has an importance, maybe just the important part is: She was kicked out of Braavos.
But isn’t GRRM also about. The truth is what you make of it. The whole saga is already filled with: Nobody is what they are and everybody lies. Baby swaps are already heavily in the books. That’s what this saga has in it’s core. But who knows. Wish winds was out so we can know for certain. I want to know the truth of lemongate.
But for me I hope it has some truth. Would make Dany more interesting. How did she hatch the dragons? Why is she the only one that can control 3 dragons? And if she is a Dayne. It makes more sense, the Daynes were one that fought in the first long night. So maybe that’s the connection. Dawn has his name not for nothing. It brings the Dawn.
I will look at it after work.
I found at least this, with a link to what GRRM told somebody. And GRRM gives his cryptic answer. Keep reading. But he told that lemon tree will be important.
Rest will come later today before I’m too late at work.
Myself, I think Dany is interesting enough on her own 🙂
But this is where I sort of hit a wall. You’re right that there are already several baby swaps/hidden parentages but if we keep adding more, it dilutes the effect of the existing ones (for me) and oversaturates this literary device. I think we need to have some stability with what we know about characters and what characters know about themselves to provide a foundation and a contrast to the unknown factors. Otherwise, I find it’s all too loose and without structure and it’ll just feel exhausting (to me).
There could be another explanation to your questions and they are interesting questions to explore but I think Dany’s parents are who the books say they are.
Those are my thoughts too. I’ve kind of hit a wall with secret parents and hidden plots. R+L=J was really cool, fAegon is interesting, the Grand Northern Conspiracy is a fun idea, the “unkiss” is kind of weird but could go somewhere intriguing. However, I personally feel saturated with this device ^^;;
Not to say that your ideas aren’t interesting, they are! But it’s sort of like the idea of subverting expectations or archetypes — I feel you can only subvert for so long until it starts feeling like it’s being done just for the sake of it. I think there needs to be a stopping point somewhere so the existing story dealing with these ideas can feel that much more meaningful because they’re not the norm.
I agree, especially the second half of Dance. Her first half was dull, but her second half better.
And I think winds will be even more amazing with her.
Well for me it’s just a plausible theory, if it will happen I won’t be shocked. But for now, I put Dany is the son of Arys and Rhealla in my head. That way I still can be a bit surprised when GRRM writes it, and not be disappointed when he doesn’t. But if it indeed goes that way, I hope he gives it a good swing to it, it must feel earned, and not just a plot-twist.
True, but if the theory of Dany is Ashara Dayne daughter is true, I hope it will only be important for Dany as a character, how she look at herself. And that she takes the good things from it. That she thinks: I worked for my position. It must feel like it make sense in the grand scheme.
I’ll reply more thoroughly later but thanks for your response 🙂 I did pull up this, which you may find of interest?
I like this, I keep this in mind when reading clash further (still not got a chance to read past the prologue).
I read the comments and I like this theory:
Rhaegar bangs Ashara in KL before heading to the Trident.
Rhaella dies by Aerys, but kept quiet by KG. (remember – Jaime said he never saw her again the night after he heard her screaming as if she was being burned…until she left for DS)
Ashara replaces Rhaella on ship to DS (Jaime notes she was covered up – cloaked and hooded).
Ashara gives birth to Dany, dies.
I like it but I doubt it. (I wish we got at least part 1 of winds so we get at least some answers, or more clues into the questions we have.
But I wonder what George meant with:
I remember that when George had his comments on that there were also many questions that he answers. He has 2 modes: He says the theory is 100% wrong, or he says something: keep on reading when there is at least a part truth in it.
But the thing that comes to my mind is that Aegon lived all his live in Tyrosh and Tyrosh can grown lemon’s.
But about Ashara: Cersei tells that Ned stole a child from Ashara. Interesting.
“Honor,” she spat. “How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You’ve a bastard of your own, I’ve seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I’m told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?”
Cersei believes that Jon is Ashara Dayne child with Ned and Ned stole the Child, and that that is why Ashara killed herself.
Other’s talk she had stillborn.
Barristan talks she had a daughter.
The problem lies still that too many points are left open in the books. All those dots that fits together with their own answers. We don’t know how that jigsaw puzzle lies. I hope at least GRRM will answers half of those questions (if not more) at the end of winds.
I don’t mind if lemon gate will wait till dream to be answered. But it depends, if the house really lies in Braavos, I’m certain Arya’s next assignment will be appointed to that house. If the house will not be seen in Winds and left hanging I’m very certain it’s not Braavos. GRRM already told that it’s important the lemon part (above) but not how. It still could be Braavos, but then it need to be adressed before the whole story shifts towards Westeros.
But I hope the mystery about Quaithe/ Septa Lemore and FAegon will be explained in winds.
I also hope we will get almost the full picture about the White Walkers and about the past with Robert and Rheagar and Lyanna. Only the resolution I hope will be in dream.
But more important I hope Littlefingers or Varys role will be told. At least one of the 2. I want to know at least one of those 2 full stories at the end of winds.
Which theories do you hope will finally be put to rest?
The biggest theory I wanted to be put to rest ended up being the theory that happened 🙁 🙁 🙁 maddany.
There might be more to Dany’s lemon tree than I thought and I see some people in that reddit link making a good case for Dany being the daughter of Ashara but still… I think we’re heading down a slippery slope here, in which it’s getting to be too much. Too many hidden parentages, secret legacies, etc.
From Garcia and Antonsson’s comments, it seems fAegon may actually be the real deal. Or at least, he’ll be perceived as such, meaning Dany will view him as the primary threat since he’d have a) the greater claim, b) the Targaryen looks to support his assertions, and c) an interest in the throne. And, as the son of Elia Martell and should people believe he’s the real thing, he’ll have the resources to rally Dorne.
Which may possibly leave Jon out of that whole political tangle since a) fAegon’s claim is greater, b) Jon will very possibly not want his claim at all after all the crap that’s happened and c) both his Stark looks and there being no record of a Rhaegar and Lyanna trueborn baby would make it difficult for the realm to buy into R+L=J. Especially since this story hinges on Ned Stark, who is known for his honor.
I feel (hope) R+L=J will be important for something else.
I agree, that’s why if Ashara+mystery Men= Dany is true. I hope it results in a good outcome. Like The Daynes and the Starks are connected both to the long night, and a child of them can defeat the White Walker treat. Maybe we first read Sam about that passage in Old town that the Daynes are connected in the defeat of the WW. Isn’t it a theory or known that Azor Ahai was a Dayne?
Well and as you state, Mad Dany can have another meaning in the books. Maybe the wildfire is the problem is the books and she is cast down by the people of KL because of that. And Jon does a Nissa Nissa.
I remember hearing something connecting the two but my familiarity with various theories is limited to what AltShiftX has covered 🙂
I do think Dany is the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella but if this was true (Dany as the daughter of Ashara), would that make Dany the false dragon and Aegon legit?
Yeah, which is basically what Garcia and Antonsson seem to be proposing.
I think so, but then I hope they do that Dany will be important for the long night. I won’t like the Ashara theory if Dany will become not important anymore. It needs to be an outcome that makes Dany more important for the story, not less.
I hope GRRM will give us the books fast, I can’t really wait any longer with that many questions haha XD
Yes. I’m still having trouble seeing the need for the Ashara theory but I guess if it were for a really good reason but…. Well, I’ll withhold reservation until such a time the books come out 🙂
Il Cafe did not disappoint. I treated myself to a nice cup of coffee this cold afternoon. 🙂 It was very good!
Oh good!! Thanks for telling me! Seems Kay was right! 😀 I’m really happy you enjoyed it!
Wait is there really anyone out there who didn’t like Brienne’s final arc? She had an overwhelmingly positive ending in the main. The Knight of the Seven Kingdoms was the highlight of S8 for many and the character was central to a lot of that.
Feel a little sorry for Kit, I love the character Jon Snow but I can see what pressure it’s put him under over all these years.
Comments are closed.